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Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
WEDNESDAY, 30 NOVEMBER 1966
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Weights and Measures, &c., Bill [30 NOVEMBER] Questions 2057
WEDNESDAY, 30 NOVEMBER, 1966
Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair at I I a.m.
QUESTIONS
ALLEGATIONS BY ABORIGINAL JP'UP!L AGAINST SCHOOL TEAC!.IER Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, aEked The Minister for Education,- ( I) Is he aware of the allegations made against a teacher in the Criminal Court on November 25 by an Aborigi.'la1 boy? (2) As the public interest in this serious allegation makes it necessary that the teacher concerned either be cleared or be the subject of corrective action, will an immediate and thorough investigation be made into the matter? 2058 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions
Answers:- amount received by way of fractions in (1) "Yes:· estimation of dividends to the nearest 6d. below in lieu of 3d. below, (b) the addi (2) "It is not proposed to take any tional amount incurred in making up action on an unsubstantiated statement dividends where required to the minimum concerning an incident alleged by a pupil to 55c from the normal dividend after deduc have taken place twelve months ago." tion of the Government's five per centum tax and other operative deductions, (c) an estimate of offset to the amount incurred CLEARING OF LARGE SCHOOL GROUNDS in making up such dividends in the addi Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The tional amount of five per centum tax ;\1inister for Education,- payable on additional investments attracted As the continual clearing and cleaning by the mmimum guaranteed dividend, of large school grounds of schools particularly large individual wagers with a small enrolment, such as Wulguru, recently publicised, and (d) an estimate of imposes a harsh burden on the Parents' and the amount of unclaimed dividends in the Citizens' Committee, will he (a) give some same period that might ultimately revert direct relief in this regard or (b) confer to revenue? with the Minister for Works in an endeavour to have these grounds periodic ally cleared by the Works Department? Answer:- "(a) The information is not available. I would not be justified in authorising the Answer:- quite substantial expenditure which would "! refer the Honourable Member to my require to be incurred in recalculating reply to him in Answer to a similar fractions on a 2! cent basis for every race Question ::~sked on September 2, 1964. The held since February 14 last. (b) I have position has not changed." some figures available which may assist the Honourable Member. Since July 1 last, fractions have totalled $230,573 and the WoOLGROWERS DIVERTING WOOL TO amount required for minimum dividends NEW SOUTH WALES has totalled $488,006-a deficiency of $257,433. Since November 1, 1966, this Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked The deficiency grew from $73,005 to the stated Premier,- figure of $257,433. I emphasise that the ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to the fractions figure I have quoted is the total statement by the Western Queensland figure of earnings from fractions and is not Hauliers Association that the diversion of just an additional receipt arising from wool clips to New South Wales would cost keeping to silver coinage when we con Brisbane business interests millions of verted to decimal currency. Again, I dollars per year and that the total value of emphasise that the amount required for wool to be diverted so far was $5! minimum dividends has been an escalating million? figure over this period-so much so that, on Saturday last, the amount required to be (2) Has he any knowledge of the names found from Consolidated Revenue, after the of wool growers whose wool is being use of all fractions and all totalisator tax diverted? received for the day, was the sum of $18,893. (c) I thank the Honourable ( 3) Were any of these growers the Member for his faith in my ability to read recipients of Government drought relief the minds of punters and to decide just pavments :md. if so, what were the how much of their investment was attracted amounts? by a 55 cent minimum dividend. With some regret, but with characteristic modesty, I have to deny any real ability Answers: in the field of mind-reading. Consequently, (1) "Yes." I would not even attempt to guess at the information desired. (d) Not only does (2) "No." the Honourable Member attribute to me some ability as a mind-reader-he also (3) '·'See Answer to (2)." feels that I have powers to foresee coming events. Whilst I feel quite flattered with his obvious faith in me, I confess that I GUAR.\NTEED MINIMUM TOTALISATOR have limited powers only in this field. I DIVIDENDS did foresee quite accurately the result of a certain national event which occurred Mr. Hanlon, pursuant to notice, asked The last Saturday, even if I have to admit to Treasurer,- the Honourable Member that this did not With reference to the guaranteed 55c really require any great gift in foresight. minimum dividend on the totalisator, for I can only say to him that I do not feel the period of its operation to the latest that I should attempt to guess at the convenient date what is (a) the additional information he desires.'' Questions (30 NOVEMBER] Death of Hon. G. Lawson 2059
DANGER AREA ON SIR SAMUEL GRIFFITH between Mirani and Gargett which feeds DRIVE, MT. COOT-THA hyacinth into the Pioneer River via McGregor's Creek. This work is being Mr. Lickiss, pursuant to notice, asked The undertaken by the Irrigation and Water Minister for Education,- Supply Commission with whom the Com ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to a missioner for Main Roads had offered to letter headed "Coot-tha death trap" over the share the cost within certain limits. The name of R. M. Wheeler and reported in spraying is to be done by a local aerial The Courier-Mail on November 28 and spraying service as soon as weather condi also to a photograph in The Courier-Mail tions are suitable." on November 29, 1966, entitled "Danger Bend-A Sign is Needed"? PAPERS (2) Is he aware that this bend on the section of road on Sir Samuel Griffith The following papers were laid on the Drive, Mt. Coot-tha, has been the scene of table:- numerous accidents and at least one fatal Order in Council under the Factories and accident? Shops Acts, 1960 to 1964. ( 3) In view of the obvious inherent Regulation under the Apprenticeship Act dangers at this road bend, will he have all of 1964. matters concerning this portion of road Audited Balance Sheet and Revenue investigated by the Police Department as a Account, as at 30th June. 1966, of the matter of urgency and initiate such prompt Parliamentary Contributory Superannua action as is possible to eliminate as far tion Fund. as is practical the dangers involved?
Answers: DEATH OF HON. G. LAWSON (1) "Yes." MoTION OF CONDOLE'>CE ( 2) "I am aware that a fatal accident Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough occurred at the site under review at 9.20 p.m. on Sunday, November 13, 1966, and Premier) (11.14 a.m.), by leave, without that for the period July 1, 1965, to June 30, notice: I move- 1966, 11 accidents have occurred in that "1. That this House desires w place on section of Sir Samuel Griffith Drive record its appreciation of the services between the Kiosk and Channel 9 Television rendered to this State by the late Station." Honourable George Lawson, a former member of the Parliament of Queensland. ( 3) "Having in mind the provisions of the Traffic Acts, the matter of the erection "2. That Mr. Speaker be requested to of any official traffic signs at or in the convey to the widow and family of the vicinity of the bend in question and of any deceased gentleman the above resolution. traffic engineering survey to be undertaken together with an expression of sympathy with a view to determining whether there and sorrow of the members of tbe Parlia is a need for some speed zoning on Sir ment of Queensland in the loss they have Samuel Griffith Drive is a matter for the sustained." Brisbane City Council. The Commissioner of Police has undertaken to bring the The late George Lawson was well known subject to the notice of the Brisbane City personally to quite a number of hon. mem Council." bers. Because of his connections in the electorate I represented when I first came into Parliament I had the privilege of know WATER HYACINTH MENACE, PIONEER ing him and his family very well and came RIVER in contact with him quite often. I am sure Mr. Davies for Mr. Graham, pursuant to that all who had an association with the notice, asked The Minister for Local Govern late George Lawson would have admired him ment,- for his personal qualities and great sincerity of purpose. With regard to his Answer to my Question on September 28 concerning the The late George Lawson, who died at his matter of dealing with the excessive growth home at Ashgrove on 25 November at the of water hyacinth on the upper reaches age of 86, was for many years a well-known of the Pioneer River and its tributaries, and P?Pular personality in the Labour Party, what action, if any, has been taken to both m the State and the Federal spheres. overcome this nuisance? He was one of the pioneers and veterans in unionism and Labour politics in Queensland. Answer:- He was an advocate and laboured for the "Arrangements have been made to aerial union movement at a time when it was verv spray the infested area of the storage of difficult to further the cause of unionism i~ Marian ·weir, including storage in this State. The leadership he gave in those tributaries, the Pioneer River between the years was greatly appreciated by members of weir and Marian Bridge and a lagoon ·his union. I we],! remember his great re.cord 2060 Death of Hon. G. Lawson [ASSEMBLY] Weights and Measures, &c., Bill
as secretary of the Transport Workers' first secretary of the Transport Workers' Union. He was able to get many advantages Union. At that time it was something of a for his union by using nothing other than his novelty to be a member of a union. Through powers oE persuasion and eloquence. his efforts, organising ability and example he quickly persuaded others to join-not by He was secretary of the Transport Workers' threats-because of the tremendous work he Union when he was appointed a member of believed a unionist could do for his members. the Legislative Council of Queensland in Later, he appeared in another typical role 1919, and he remained a member of the in the Queensland Upper House, mainly for Upper House until its abolition in March, the purpose of bringing about its abolition. 1922. I understand that he was the one surviving member of the Legislative Council. It is not often that people give away a A search of the records seems to confirm promising political career by carrying out a principle in which they believe, and I believe that view. There may be others who were that George Lawson will always be remem mie.sed the search, but I think it can be bered for the part he played in that event. sai<' with some certainty that he was the last In 1931 he received a just reward when he r-Hviving member of the Legislative Council. was elected to the Federal Parliament. By ?vir. Lawson was elected member for his efforts during the war years, in times of Brisbane in the Federal election of 19 great strife, he again displayed the abilities December, 1931, and represented that con as an organiser and a true Australian that stituency until his retirement in 1961. He he had displayed in his early days in fighting for his country. held the of Minister for Transport and Postmaster-General in the He will naturally be greatly missed by his Curtin Ministry from 7 October, 1941, to wife and family. Irrespective of the age at 21 1943. which a person finally passes on, he is always missed by those near and dear to him. He was a Boer War veteran, having I sometimes feel that the older a person is, enlisted at the age of 18 years. He served the more he becomes a part of the scene. for a number of years in the Boer War and I trust that the memory of his great achieve was mentioned in despatches on one occasion. ments will be some consolation to his widow He was in the same Queensland unit as the and family in their great loss. We therefore late Harry Walker, a well-respected member join with the Premier in this motion of of this House who passed away some years condolence. ago. Motion (Mr. Nicklin) agreed to, hon. The !ate George Lawson was a man who members standing in silence. had many friends in all walks of life and of all shades of political opinion. He was a true Australian, a man of sincere and earnestly AUDIT ACTS AMENDMENT BILL expressed political convictions; he was, above all, one who loved his fellow-men. INITIATION As a citizen and as a representative of the Hon. G. F. R. NICKUN (Landsborough Premier): I move- people he was a man of very high ideals, and one po gave of his best to the service of ''That the House will, at its present his country. Queensland is undoubtedly the sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of poorer for his passing. He will long be the Whole to consider introducing a Bill remembered for the service he gave to this to amend the Audit Acts, 1874 to 1965, State and for his great personal qualities. in a certain particular." [ am sure all hon. members will join with Motion agreed to. me in expressing to the late Mr. Lawson's widow and family our sincere sympathy in the great loss they have sustained. FIRE BRIGADES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL
Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the THIRD READING Opposition) (H.20 a.m.): Naturally the Opposition joins with the Premier in extend Bill, on motion of Mr. Herbert, read a ing condolences to the widow and family of third time. the late George Lawson. He was a man who will always be remembered by Labour people for the tremendous contribution he made WEIGHTS AND MEASURES ACTS over the years, both for the advancement of AMENDMENT BILL the trade-union movement and on the polit ical scene in this country. THIRD READING He first came into prominence, as the Bill, on motion of Mr. Herbert, read a Premier >aid, in 1907, when he became the third time. Racing and Betting [30 NovEMBER} Acts Amendment Bill 2061
RACING AND BETTING ACTS U2) A modification of the law relating to AMENDMENT BILL the payment of a minimum totalisator dividend of 55 cents.
[NrTIATION IN COMMITTEE I sha11 deal separately wHth each of those matters, outlining to the Committee the (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, reasons for the changes that are recom Greenslopes, in the chair) mended, and indicate clearly the Govern ment's policy in :relation thereto. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK ~Lockyer Treasurer) (11.26 a.m.): :I move- At the present time, it is only in respect "That a Hill be introduced to amend the of galloping race-meetings in the metro politan and Ipswich areas that a meeting can, Racing and 'Betting Acts, 1954 to 1965, in because of weather conditions, be postponed certain particulars." to a subsequent mid-week day. In all other This BiU contains the following main cases, a Saturday, holiday or well-established provisions-- annual meeting can be postponed only to Cl) 'Power to ena>ble a substitute nee another Saturday or holiday. These annual meeting to :be held in cities outside t!he and well-established meetings, which are metropolitan and Ipswich areas when a customarily held on mid-week holidays, meeting postponed because of wea1Jher cannot be successfully postponed to a Satur conditions; day or State-wide holiday, particularly where the current metropolitan meeting attracts the (2) The meeting held by the Ipswich interest from a meeting in another area. It is Amateur Tunf Club on the mid-week Ipswich proposed that, with the approval of the Min Show to be trearted as a mid-week ister, postponement of a galloping race as a Saturday meeting; meeting will be permitted to a mid-week day, (3) Power for the Totalisator Adminis not later than the Friday of the second week tration Board to make arrangements for off following the week in which the meeting was course betting ,arrangements in other States to have been conducted, in the following or Commonwea,lth territory where the law cases:- of such States or territory so authorises Where the meeting was to have been off-course 'betting; conducted on a mid-week working day on (4) Reduotion of book-makers' permit tax which an annual and well-estaUished race for the rLeger reserve at Brisbane and meeting of particular interest to the Bundamba, and also in respect of certain inhabitants of the city in queztion is cus other galloping, coursing, and trotting tomarily held. Typical examples of the g,rounds; type of meeting in mind are the special meetings conducted at Mackay and (5) Repeal of provisions for the licensing Charters Towers for many years as part of of off-course hook-makers; the annual two-day meeting; or (6) Ensuring t!hat not only a book-maker, Where the meeting was to have been but also every person who has carried on held on an appointed holiday or part the business of book-maker and has ceased holiday and the Minister is of the opinion to so do, shall keep books of Ibis .betting that, taking into consideration the areas transactions for at least two years and also from which nominations have been account to the Commissioner of Stamp received and the degree of interest in the Duties for :betting sheets. It is also provided meeting taken by persons resident outside that irr<>gularities in regard to betting sheets the local-authority are~ in question, post can place a book-maker's licence in jeopardy; ponement of the meetmg should be per (7) Authority for any member of the mitted to a day other than a Saturday or Police Force who has a search warrant in holiday. respect of premises suspected of being a A typical example of the type of oase that common betting house to search persons the latter provision envisages is the postpone found on sueih premises and al'rest persons ment of a race-meeting such as the Weet therein who are in possession of instruments wood Handicap Meeting held on the of betting; Toowoomba Show holiday. That meeting is held on a Show holiday, and, under the Act (8) Acceptance as prima facie evidence as it stands, it can be postponed only to in prosecutions of a racing club's certificate another Saturday or a holiday. The last day ~hat certain horses have entered or competed on which the Weetwood Handicap Meeting in a race-meeting; was held was very wet. Fortunately for the (9) A means of facilitaJting the appoint club it was possible to conduct the meeting, ment of members of the Metropolitan alth~ugh it was washed out shortly after the Galloping Raoos AHocation Committee; runmng of the Weetwood Handicap. I had a quick look at the Act that morning and (10) A limited provision to enable a special found that I had no authority to authorise race-meeting to be held in certain provincial the holding of the meeting on the following cities at the time of a special fe&tival or day. The only day on which it could be held celebration; was Saturd~y, which was their Cup Day, and (11l) Provision to authorise the holding of the followmg Saturday clashed with an barrier trials; and important meeting in Brisbane for which 2062 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill most of the owners would have forsaken viewing the picture over all. this is an Toowoomba. The Bill corrects this pro instance in which a sprat could well catch a cedure, but only in relation to this type of mackerel as far as the Ipswich club and the meeting. Government are concerned, because increased Mr. Houston: Will new nominations have revenue could well result from increased to be called? attendances. Mr. Dean: In other words, you are going Mr. CHALK: No. It will be a straight-out to increase gambling. postponement. The Bill gives the Minister the right to say Mr. CHALK: l am not increasing when the postponed meeting shall be held, gambling. The day is already set aside and provided it is within the period ending on accepted. The Government is not putting the Friday of the second week following that in an extra race day; it is merely providing in which the meeting was to have been con facilities for those who desire to use them. ducted. It provides a means of allowing a No-one is forced to go to Bundamba, but meeting to be held when the horses are on the facilities will be there for those who the spot. Again referring to the last Weet choose to go. I think the hon. member for wood Handicap Meeting in Toowoomba, Sandgate believes in the democratic right of although the weather cleared the club would the individual to choose the type of sport not have been able to race on Friday, he wishes to follow. according to the law, if the meeting had been It is desired to regularise an arrangement washed out on Thursday. entered into by the previous Treasurer with The race-meeting conducted by the the Minister for the Interior for the Com Ipswich Amateur Turf Club on the mid-week monwealth for off-course betting under the Ipswich Show holiday is presently treated Australian Capital Territory ~ Totalisator similarly to a Saturday race-meeting. It will Agency Board's control with respect to be recalled that at one time racing at Brisbane and Ipswich race-meetings. At the Bundamba was always conducted on Satur moment, total figures are telephoned from days, although more recently there has been Canberra to the Totalisator Administration a certain amount of mid-week racing there. Board of Queensland for amalgamation with the Brisbane figures. The Ipswich Amateur Turf Club has requested that the Ipswich Show holiday The propos1t10n agreed to with the meeting be treated on the same basis as an Minister for the Interior is based on the ordinary mid-week meeting. As it is clear following distribution of the statutory deduc that the show holiday meeting is not on a tion of 13;f per cent.- scale similar to that of a Saturday meeting A commission of 12 per cent. of the in the metropolitan area, it is proposed to net turnover, that is, gross turnover less treat the holiday meeting as another mid refunds on account of non-starters, is week meeting similar to those now held at paid to the Australian Capital Territory Bundamba. Board on its transactions with the Queens land Board; Mr. Houston;: Does that introduce- The Queensland Government takes one Mr. CHALK: I will outline what it does. half per cent. of the amounts received This means that the book-makers' permit tax from the Australian Capital Territory will be at the same scale as for a mid-week Boa,rd; and meeting, the commission paid to the club for The T.A.B. takes the remaining 1t per operation of the totalisator will increase from cent. to cover its commission and the 8;f per cent. to 10 per cent., and the stamp operating costs incurred by it as a result duty paid on betting tickets will reduce of the transactions. from 2 cents to 1 cent. In view of the smaller scale of this mid-week meeting com As there is very little work concerned with pared with a Saturday meeting, I believe these transactions in Queensland because they that the request by the club is well justified, a,re handled in bulk sums only, these and that is why I have included the pro arrangements are very satisfactory. The vision in the Bill. sums involved are not large. Those hon. members who know much The Bill enables similar arrangements to about betting are aware that in certain be made with other States and territories and instances a book-maker has to pay a permit provides that similar conditions shall be fee of about $50 per annum to field on applicable. Saturdays, and he is then permitted to I have had a good look at the level of operate under that arrangement. A book the annual book-makers' permit tax after maker who fields at mid-week meetings all representations made to me, and I believe the year round pays a permit fee of about to other members on both sides of this $30 per annum, but if he wishes to field on Committee, from the Leger book-makers in one particular day he has to pay an addi the metropolitan area. The annual Leger tional permit fee of $20. This has caused book-maker's permit tax in the metropolitan the Ipswich Turf Club to lose the services area is at present $50 and the tax for the of a certain number of book-makers who saddling-paddock book-maker is $100. As would otherwise field there. In my opinion, the daily hold of a Leger book-maker is only Racing and Betting [30 NoVEMBER] Acts Amendment Bill 2063
about one quarter that of a paddock book Commissioner of Stamp Duties or his auth maker, the Bookmaker's Association has orised officer. A book-maker must also sought the reduction of the Leger permit account to the Commissioner for every bet tax to $30, and the Bill provides accordingly. ting sheet supplied to him by the Commis sioner. It is proposed that these conditions Anyone who is a frequenter of our shall also apply to every person who, at principal racetracks in Queensland will know any time, has carried on the business of that in recent times, possibly because of or acted as a book-maker. greater prosperity or the greater flow of money, attendance inside the paddock areas The Commissioner is given power by the in our principal racetracks has increased Bill to direct a principal club to suspend a considerably. In fact, the line of demarcation book-maker's clicence for irregularities in between those who wish to follow racing respect of betting sheets. The Commissioner or betting is almost such that, except for has powers of direction in this behalf for a a few instances, we could almost eliminate number of causes under the existing law in the Leger. There are the paddock patrons relation to turnover tax, but irregularities in and the flat patrons, and in some instances respect of betting sheets is not one such book-makers have been able to cover large cause·. 11he Bill strengthens the position in sums of money in the paddock which, to this behalf. A person registered as a book some degree, have found their way back maker might get into some sort of trouble. to the Leger, and these smaller book-makers Up to now he has had the opportunity to in the Leger are perhaps not in a position say, "Here is my licence; you can do what to cope with the business. The Bookmakers' you like with it." Under the income tax Association has voiced its opinion, and I laws he would have certain o'hligations, but in am prepared to go along with it. respect of his activities as far as the principal club is concerned, when he walks out through At the same time, I looked at the com parative levels of fees for other "galloping" t'he door it virtua1ly has no control over him. book-makers, and book-makers fielding at If there has bee·n ·some dispute on a race trotting and coursing meetings. I have course, some dispute between ~he club and decided to leave the tax for trotting meetings the book-maker, or the book-maker has got within a 20-mile radius of the Brisbane himself into difficulty, it is not right and G.P.O. at $20, but to reduce from $14 to proper that he should be able to say, "I am $10 the fee for those operating within a finished. You cannot get me any more. I I 0-mile radius of the post offices at Ipswich, am no longer a book-maker; I never want Rockhampton, Toowoomba and Townsville. to be a book"maker again." We are tightening A similar reduction will apply to the second up t·his maUer. I know that the Bookmakers' enclosures for galloping meetings at Rock Association is quite happy about it. hampton, Toowoomba and Townsville. An amendment is a1so proposed to give Again, in the case of coursing, the fee a police officer power to search a person within a 20-mile radius of the Brisbane found on premises entered as a result of the G.P.O.-instead of 60 miles as at present issue of a warrant under the provisions of will reduce from $30 to $20, and elsewhere section 122 of the Acts. Whilst it is an offence from $20 to $10. I believe these new levels for a person to have in his custody any will give comparative justice. In days gone by, instrument of .betting on horse-racing, the as tracks developed here and there, we had present warrant £or entry and search of some sort of jigsaw in regard to fees. We premises does not give the police any power had some fees within a 10-mile radius and to search a person for instruments which may some within 20 miles, and other variations be concealed, unless an arrest was made when coursing and trotting tracks sprang before l!he search. Provision is already made up in various places. We are now equalising that a member of the Police Force may the fees to a greater degree, and when hon. arrest a person found committing specific members see the form in which they are offences under the Act. However, when the presented in the Bill I think they will agree offence of posse·ssion of unlawful betting that it does justice to those concerned. transactions was transferred from the As the few remaining off-course book Vagrants, Gaming and Other Offences Acts makers' licences were cancelled some time to the Racing and Betting Acts, in 1964, the ago owing to the widespread establishment power of arrest was not transfer·red from the of T.A.B. agencies throughout the State, former Acts. It is proposed to rectify this the Bill repeals the power to license such omission. book-makers, as well as other references In the case of prosecutions for illegal off throughout the Acts to licensed off-course course betting, it has been necessary for the betting. We feel that, in fact, adequate p·olice to call formal evidence of the starters betting facilities are now provided throughout in various events at a race-meeting. The the State, either on-course or off-course, practice of bringing witnesses from other through the T.A.B., and the need for licensed towns, and in some cases from other States, off-course book-makers is not again likely simply for the purpose of giving evidence to arise. Vhat certain horses had competed, involves At present it is provided that a book-maker considerable time and expense. For that must retain for a period of at least two years reason, provision is being made that the his books containing betting transactions, and certificate •by the secretary or chief stipendiary produce such books for inspection by the steward of a race club sha,ll be sufficient 2064 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY Acts Amendment Bill
pnma facie evidence of the holding of a race held. This last-mentioned exception covers meeting, and of the competition of horses in ~ome of the cases where a mid-week meeting certain events. IS _desired in cIn the past it :has been necessary ever, before such a meeting can be held it to bring a witness, say, ahl ,tJhe way from has to be shown that a meeting has ac~ly Melbourne to say that "Seldom Fed" started been held on that particular day for a in a grass handicap event on a particular number of years past. day. On tihe other hand a certificate from the The Committee will appreciate, I am sure, recognised sec~et~y or cl!ief stipendiary that under these conditions it is quite steward of a pnncrpal club ought to be quite impossible to hold a meeting during the sufficient to conrvince the court that "Seldom annual celebration of a new occasion. As Fed" actually started in a particular rrace. there are now a number of new A committee consisting of a representative occasions of festivals in these city areas of each of the metropolitan galloping oluhs which could be improved from the organi: is set up under the Acts to allocate the sational point of view by a special race-meet available racing dates among the three ing, it is proposed to permit a limited metropolitan dubs. The Governor in C Mr. CHALK: Let me make it clear that Mr. CHALK: I believe that llhe hon. I am not going to take it away from the member is thoroughly convinced-if he is small punter. not, I am very much mistaken-that the Mr. Hanlon: You are not going to take people who are using their money in this it away from him, but you are-- way are big operators from southern States. Mr. Hanlon: I do not deny that. Mr. CHALK: I am not; but I am going to make it very difficult for the big punter who Mr. CHALK: The hon. member for wants to "hav·e a go". Baroona would be the first to agree with me lVk. Hanlon: Will you put a limit on it? on that point. I will not be side-tracked by what the hon. member for Sandgate said. Mr. CHALK: I will come to that in a He is entitled to his views. At this stage, moment. I wanted to emphasise that point the Government is merely trying to correct for the benefit of the hon. member for the position that has arisen. Baroona. He probably has some figures In these circumstances-that is, where up to prepared, and I want to be helpful. I point 87 per cent. of the off-course place investment out that sn per cent. of the pool has been has been on the one horse--the amount of going away, and that is not the basis on Wihich fractions has been nowhere near sufficient this scheme was established. to meet the payment, and the deficiency Mr. Dean: The Gove•rnment is a book then becomes a charge against the maker by reason of the totalisator scheme. Government's tax entitlement, and indeed, on some occasions, as I have indicated, Mr. CHALK: The hon. member fm Sand against Consolidated Revenue. I do gate and I differ on this question. I am sure not think that any hon. member, no he holds views different from those he-ld by matter on which side of the Chamber he sits, a number of hon. members on the Opposition wants the operation of this scheme to become benches, and probably there are members a charge upon Consolidated Revenue. on the Government bencihes who agree with his views. Would the hon. member prefer What have been described in T.A.B. circles to have S.P. instead of t•he T.A.B.? as large "broker-like" plunges have spoilt the pool for the small and moderate punter, Mr. Dean: I think it is the .lesser evil. and the Government does not propose to allow this position to continue. However, Mr. CHALK: I should like to debate that it desires to retain the spirit of its original question with the hon. member, but I will proposal, so the Bill now provides for the not take up the time of the Committee by retention of the minimum 55-cent dividend doing so now. If the hon. member believes on all straight-out win bets. In re&pect of in having ~he type of S.P. book-makers that place-betting, it retains the 55-cent minimum I have seen operating, I assure him that dividend in all cases except any race- I do not. I have pencilled; I have called races; I have bet on what might be termed for two-year-olds; an illega•l basis in my time. I do not hold which is a weight-for-age or set-weight myself up as a Puritan, and I believe that race; or there are very few tricks in the racing game where more than 33t per cent. (or such that I do not know. I would much prefer to other percentage as the Governor in have T.A.B. agencies established througthout Council may from time to time fix) of the the State than to have operating the type of total tote investment is made in respect of S.P. book-makers who worked at the back of one of the place-getters on which a dividend hotels in some of the places that I frequented is payable. before I came into this Chamber. In the case of these specified races where the Mr. Hanlon: J1here is a certain resurgence minimum dividend of 55 cents no longer of S.P. app.Iies, the minimum dividend w111 be 50 Mr. CHALK: If the hon. member gives cents. me the names of places in which S.P. is Mr. Hanlon: In that case the smail investor operating, I will be happy to try to get rid about whom I am talking would not know of it. whether there was to be a 55-cent dividend until the race was over? Mr. Hanlon: You want the T.A.B. staff to do that? You do not think the police can Mr. CHALK: Neither would the big do their job? fellow. Mr. CHALK: I did not say that. One Mr. Pilbeam: The book-makers will not cannot expect eve•ry policeman to be able to give you a place bet. say exactly where S.P. is operating. If one tells them, they wm make an investigation. Mr. CHALK: In regard to the interjection by the hon. member for Rockhampton South, Mr. Hanlon: If you attract people to the what we are introducing here is very much tote and then turn them away because they the principle that has been followed by are not doing as well as they were doing book-makers down through the years. They before, you are encouraging them to go back seem to be able to conduct this type of to S.P. ' place-betting reasonably well. Racing and Betting [30 NovEMBER] Acts Amendment Bill 2067 The Committee will readily appreciate the as they went past the post. We were made reason for excludil_lg two-year-old, weight a laughing-stock over that race, and I think for-age, or set-we1ght races. The rules the horses enjoyed the fun. governing place-betting by book-makers allow Those who listen to Tom Foley on except~on to the general rule of quarter odds m the case of races of this class. Saturday morning would have heard him In respect of the other exception the real say last Saturday morning in a most emotional harm being occasioned at pres~nt is by way, "Oh Gordon, oh Gordon, don't take the disproportionate plunge on one horse. away the punters' good thing!" If hon. Let me state quite definitely that we do members would like to hear the real story, not want these large "broker-like" plunges I Will tell them. Tom Foley's session is on the tote; they do not help the racing sponsored by a very prominent optical game or the average punter. We have manufacturer in Brisbane. So excited did thus provided that where more than 33j- per the commentator get that he forgot his cent. of the total investment is on one script; instead of offering a 20 per cent. horse and a dividend is payable in respect discount on a particular type of binoculars of that horse, the minimum dividend of he offered 25 per cent. I know the optical 55 cents will not apply. Even in limiting manufacturer very well. He is a good sport, the figure to 33t per cent., we could face and so today he is giving the 25 per cent. a pay-out equivalent to 7 · 92 per cent. of discount. the total pool invested on the race in main All I want to say now is that the taining a minimum dividend of 55 cents. commentator convinced me so much that This is, of course, in excess of the total the 55 cents dividend remains. He did of both our fractions and tax on the race. not think it would. He offered an additional We propose to give the matter a trial 5 per cent. discount on behalf of his sponsor, on these lines. If we find that what is and now the Government is proposing that now proposed chokes off the "broker-like" the 55-cent. dividend remain in most oper.ator and we do better than we expected, circumstances. If punters want to go to I w!ll be prepared to consider raising the Eagle Farm next Saturday, with the 55-cent figure of 33t per cent. Provision has been dividend remaining and the offer of a pair made in the Bill to allow this to be done of binoculars at a reduced price, they have by Order in Council. It is only by experience an opportunity of collecting a winning double that we c.an find this out. Personally, I if they are lucky. do not thmk the verv large operator will I have got a little away from my prepared chase this pool now. ·If he does, the odds are much greater against him, and if we material. I do want to point out that we can choke him off the small punter who have looked carefully into this matter. I frequents the racecourse and likes to have believe that what I have brought forward his "five bob" on this type of bet will be will overcome the difficulty and carry out assured of the 55 cent dividend. the spirit in which the 55-cent dividend was introduced. In respect of all bets where the 55-cent While amending the Act, I have taken minimum no longer applies, a 50-cent the opportunity to tidy up a few matters minimum dividend (that is, return of the that have been raised with me during the investment) will operate. We have taken almost 12 months that I have been Minist(}f nothing away from the punter there. The in charge of racing. I commend the Bill present law applying to place bets where to the Committee. a tied result occurs will remain unchanged. Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the I might add that over the past three or Opposition) (12.18 p.m.): The Treasurer of four weeks I have been tendered all the course has a great advantage over the "good oil" and advice imaginable by book Opposition in that he knows about some makers, punters, race commentators, and of these problems at first hand from his others. advisers, and he also has the opportunity Mr. Waish: You didn't pass it on. to speak to so many people associated with the racing industry. In bringing down the Mr. CHALK: I will make it clear to Bill he has been able to back his arguments the hon. member for Bundaberg that it was with certain facts and figures which, of not winning oil but information on how I course, have not been available to the could regulate the Government's funds so Opposition up to this point. It would be that the Government will always win. On impossible, and quite wrong, for me to say the other hand, I have been told how the straight out whether or not we accept the punter can always win. I have been talked proposed amendments to the Act, but I assure to by racing commentators. men who write the Treasurer that we will give all his for. the . racing world, punters, owners, recommendations due consideration, both tramers-m fact, by some who have never from a practical and a theoretical angle. seen 55 cents. Mr. Walsh: He won't be giving anything Mr. O'Donnel!: It is just as well the away. horses can't talk. Mr. HOUSTON: Although the Treasurer Mr. CHALK: As a matter of fact, when has suggested that in the South he was we "did" $28,000 in one race the other day considered to be Santa Clans, I assure him I believe that some of the horses winked that that is not his reputation in Brisbane. 2068 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment :Bill Mr. Hanlon: Santa Claus with a tommy possible increase in it, why should the Trea gun in the bag. surer include in the Bill the power for police officers to search a person there and then-- Mr. HOUSTON: That could be right, too. on the spot-once a warrant has been issued and entry has been made into premises? I The first proposal concerns the holding take it that this type of legislation would not of mid-week race meetings on another day be necessary unless the Treasurer felt that in country areas when rain or climatic there could be an increase in S.P. betting. I conditions have interfered with the normal do not know what the position would be if scheduled programme. I think this is a a female were found on such premises. Will desirable proposal. Anyone who has the Minister include some safeguards to cover attended country race-meetings will realise an over-zealous constable who might think the organisation that goes into them. The he can act outside certain limits? Will the local people look forward keenly to them. Minister provide what the limits win be in I remember one meeting that I attended. Althoug>h there were only two officiaJl races, such investigations? there was also a race between a couple of Mr. Pilbeam: It would make il an interest grass-fed horses and a race between a horse ing job. and a foot-runner. It was a day out for the 1ocal people and many attended. Mr. HOUSTON: I remember years ago Although it rained towards evening it was still I think in the days of S.P.-seeing a police a very enjoyable day. This type of racing man running down a street from a shop in cannot be cast aside without receiving some an area in which I was living and a woman consideration. Unless there is a particular with a cricket bat chasing him and crying feature that we are unaware of, the Bill out words which, of course, are not accept could receive our favourable consideration. able in this Chamber. With regard to the matter concerning the Mr. Houghton: You might think she Ipswich Amateur Turf Club, this is an admin wanted to bat on. istrative matter which became noticeable Mr. HOUSTON: I think the problem was only after the club was granted a mid-week that the lady concerned was depoo:iting books race-meeting. Prior to that there was no in places where the policeman was not very great demand for it. welcome and, as a result, this episode took place. The matters concerning the bookmaker's tax and the Totalisator Administration Board I suggest to the Treasurer that he clear up will be looked into by us. In relation to this point before hon. members have females fees paid by book-makers in Brisbane, both coming to them complaining about being in the Leger and the paddock, I suggest to handled by police officers. We do not want the clubs concerned that they do not alter to have any lady embarrassed or any police their entrance fee. I think the reasons that officer placed in that position. influence people to patronise the paddock Establishing the principle of accepting a more than in the past are twofold. First, the racing club's certificate that a particular clubs have set out to improve the amenities. I horse started in a race is a worth-while step. know that people go to the races to gamble, A good deal of public money is wasted but they also go there to enjoy themselves. proving some requirements of the law which In many instances, with females particularly, a layman considers to be quite it is an occasion on which they "go out". normally. If a race-meeting is and the Mr. Chalk: They go there to show them nominations, acceptances, and selves off. published in the Press, that should proof. 1t should not be necessary to bring Mr. HOUSTON: Yes. I am pointing out a witness or a police officer from a far that gambling is not the only reason for going distant place to prove such a fact A good to the races. deal of the time of police officers and State finance are wasted, in my opinion, to prove Attendance in the paddock would be a fact only to stop some smart from affected by a substantial increase in the adopting delaying tactics in a that is entrance fee. Wages have increased over the obvious. If the principle is as stated by the years, but for some time clubs have kept the Treasurer, the Opposition could be in agree entrance fees down. As I am now a guest of ment with it. the clubs, I cannot say exactly what the charges are. The necessity for the automatic appoint- ment of the chairman of a club Off-course betting, is being abolished as has been established on more one there is now no need for it. By interjection, occasion. The same applies to various country the hon. member for Baroona referred to areas which have one mid-week race-meeting. S.P. betting and suggested that reports seem The Bill provides for a special race-meeting to indicate that it is increasing. I cannot say to be held at the time of a festival. No whether it is or not; I do not know. I do doubt the Minister for Labour and Tourism not frequent such places and I do not will use this provision to stage attractions in associate with those who are interested in it. various areas in an effort to encourage If the Government is not concerned about a visitors. Tourists want to enjoy all the Racing and Betting [30 NOVEMBER} Acts Amendment Bill 2069 amenities possible. Although an area should Mr. HOUSTON: Hon. member~ opposite not be overloaded with these things, local will all have their chance to speak. I do people, particularly those in the North, have not mind at all dealing with genuine inter told me that they would like to extend their jections. festival attJ;actions. Mr. Carey: I asked a sensible question. Mr. Chalk! The Toowoomba Carnival of Flowers is a good example. Mr. HOUSTON: Although I know the hon. member is a sensible member and has Mr. HOUSTON: That is so. had some experience in this matter, I suggest that he make his speech later so that what I was as surprised as the Treasurer to hear he wants to say can be followed and he that problems and repercussions could arise will not be misunderstood. from the holding of barrier trials. In this regard, I suggest that he look into the pro Mr. Carey: If by any chance vision of insurance for jockeys who accept the Government would you mounts in barrier trials, particularly pending T.A.B.? the passing of this Bill. If there is a doubt about it today there will be one tomorrow. Mr. HOUSTON: That is quite an irrelevant question. When we become the Govern Mr. Chalk! The position of jockeys was ment we will handle each situation as it one matter that was involved in this. arises according to the current situation. I do not want to argue with hon. members Mr. HOUSTON: If a jockey has an opposite, as I have only a few minutes accident tomorrow while riding in a barrier in which to speak. trial, and a barrier trial has no legal recognition-- A book-maker takes the responsibility of laying odds with a punter according to his Mr. Chalk: If there were some legal argu assessment of whether a horse has a chance ment over it, yes, but we will meet that of winning a race, or gaining a place. To circumstance when it arises. my knowledge, no book-maker has ever Mr. Pizzey: The Bill has only just been offered odds that return only the .amount of introduced this morning. the bet. No punter would ever bet with a book-maker who said, "If you back the Mr. HOUSTON: I realise that. But another winner I shall give you your back. Minister told me that we had had another If the horse you back does not win, shall Bill for 2t months. keep the lot". Mr. CbaJk: That was last night; this is Mr. Hanlon: Other than dead beats, or today. something like that. Mr. HOUSTON: The Minister for Labour Mr. HOUSTON: That is fair enough, and Tourism would probably prefer that last because a horse then has not won in the night had never happened. true sense but has gained oruy equal first So far I have spoken of administration place. I think it was Ajax that ago factors and the giving effect, by means of won 19 consecutive races. At stage legislation, to requests made by owners, it was considered unbeatable and started trainers, jockeys, and executive members at 40 to 1 on. Incidentally, it was beaten of turf clubs. The last part of the Bill at those odds. strikes at the punter, and I think a few Mr. Pizzey: What about for a place? things should be kept in mind when con sidering the arguments advanced by the Mr. HOUSTON: It began at about 160 Treasurer. In the first place, it was the to 1 on. Government's decision to enter the field Mr. Kaus: It would go the other way. of gambling. It was the Government that decided to use gambling as a means of Mr. HOUSTON: Don't be financing the State. The Opposition did odds-on, not against. The not start the T.A.B. The Government is paid a dividend in excess of the amount acting as a State book-maker, as it were. invested. We have to consider carefully Mr. Pilbeam: Insurance is a form of whether the Government, which in this matter wagering. is virtually a book-maker, is in the same position. Mr. HOUSTON: This is not insurance; When one takes the case of the small it is offering to the people a system of gambl man who bets, the odds are completely ing to produce a return for an outlay, against him. To give a return 5 cents, depending on the result of horse-races. the actual tote odds are 10 to 1 on. How Mr• .Haruon: Insurance is protection against many horses in Brisbane start at the odds a possible event over which a person may of 10 to 1 on or shorter? I suggest there have no control. People have control over would be very few. this matter by having a bet. Mr. Pilbeam: For a place? Mr. HOUSTON: That is quite so. Mr. HOUSTON: For a win. Very few Government Members interjected. horses start at those low odds. 2070 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill Mr. Pilbe:am: You won't deny that there Mr. HOUSTON: All angles should be con is a racket? sidered before a decision is made on whether or not it is a good thing. The Minister Mr. HOUSTON: I am neither denying said that on one occasion 87 per cent. of nor accepting that it is a racket. In my the pool was on one horse. He asks now opinion, something that is legal is not a that if 33t per cent. of the pool is on one racket Let us not have any misapprehen horse, the maximum dividend shall be only sion on this point. Whoever the gamblers 50 cents. were who took the risk-they may have Mr. Pilbeam: That will be the actual had better information than the hon. mem dividend. ber gets; I do not know; I assure the hon. member for Rockhampton South that Mr. HOUSTON: I venture to say that if a I was not one of them-they used a method horse is any kind of a short favourite of gambling that is legal in Queensland. although he may not be at odds on-in an Therefore, I do not think that is a racket, eight-horse race it is logical to assume that any more than it is a racket for people the investment on him will be more than 33t to get round the law. Amendments can be per cent. of the pool. That is not uncommon, made to plug the loopholes; but the people as I think the Minister will agree, and I who take advantage of those loopholes can feel that this part of his proposition will not be described as racketeers, no matter have to be looked at very closely. If the who they are. Government wants to force people back to the S.P. operators, the best way to do it is Mr. Hanlon: They have to win 10 times to so restrict the tote that they find they have successively to show a profit. no chance of winning and a good chance of losing. Mr. HOUSTON: That is true. Mr. Pilbeam: That is a reasonable point. The Treasurer said it is wrong to use Consolidated Revenue to pay gambling debts. Mr. HOUSTON: It is the point that I am l do not think one can judge the T.A.B., worried about. a book-maker or a punter on the results of one race or one race-meeting. After Mr. Chalk: I must confess that I suspect all, if the results of all gamblers were judged you have not followed me, just as I am not on one race, there would be so many losers following you. Are you speaking of a horse in and so many winners. I think it is a particular race which attracts more than recognised that there are no over-all winners 3 3 t per cent. of the tickets? It is only in in gambling. It has to be taken on a short relation to that horse that the 50 cent rule term basis. applies, but it does not say that the winner of the race will not pay much better odds. Mr. Chalk: There are some prosperous looking fellows around. Mr. HOUSTON: I am speaking of a race in which there are eight starters and one horse Mr. HOUSTON: Most of the book-makers is at, say, even money and attracts 50 per are prosperous. If the Treasurer believed cent. of the pool. that he could be a successful punter, he Mr. Pilbeam: You are saying that he is not would leave-- at odds on and it is not a two-year-old Mr. Pilbe.am: There "ain't no such animal" race? as a successful punter. Mr. HOUSTON: That is right The punter who wants to back that favourite does not Mr. HOUSTON: The Treasurer would be know whether or not he is putting his money the first one in history. in for the sole privilege of losing it or only getting it back, because he does not know If people want to gamble, that is their exactly what the odds are. That is what I business. The point I make is that the am worried about. I agree with the hon. odds that the Minister is complaining about member for Sandgate that more people are are very short. Taking the place odds, attending race-meetings now and more are there again, a 5 cent return is 10 to 1 on, having a bet. If they do not go to a race but the horse would be 5 to 2 on straight out meeting they try to follow, on the T.A.B., the Again I suggest that not many horses would horse they backed and lost on the previous start at 5 to 2 on. When one compares week, and once they come to feel that they the odds offered by a book-maker with the are not going to get a return for their odds offered by the T.A.B.-- money they will look for an outlet and that Mr. N. T. E. Hewitt: A book-maker will be the S.'P. operator. won't lay you place odds on the two-year-olds. Mr. Chalk: I believe this matter will iron itself out within six months, but we have Mr. HOUSTON: I am not arguing that to choke off the big punter. point. I wish to deal with the further restriction-after all, it was only one or Mr. HOUSTON: In doing that and in trying two days-- to stop the person who is not doing the right thing in principle, the Treasurer is interfering ~1r. Chalk: What is that? with the honest little fellow. Racing and Betting [30 NovEMBER] Acts Amendment Bill 2071 Mr. Chalk: If you can give me an argu the punter always receives a reasonably fair ment, I am prepared to listen. deal. I feel that the Treasurer is doing (Time expired.) that by this Bill. Mr. N. T. E. HEWITT (Mackenzie) (12.44 Mr. HANLON (Baroona) 02.48 p.m.): p.m.): I naturally am interested in racing Listening to the Treasurer this morning, because, as most hon. members know, I have particularly when he was dealing with the been a member of the R.J.C. Committee for proposed procedure for the minimum tote nine years. It is one of the principal dividend, I could not help feeling that race clubs in this State. I have recently whether or not he succeeds as Treasurer returned from a trip overseas where I took the he certainly missed his vocation as a book opportunity of visiting Aquaduct outside New maker. York, Newmarket in England, Longchamps Many of us have many friends who are in France, and Capanelli in Italy, as well as book-makers. They are very good fellows. taking a look at the racecourse at Hong Kong. In one way they are a bit like the punters; Mr. Pilbeam: Did you win? they never seem to be doing as well as their counterparts. The punter has always got a sad story to tell, and most book-makers Mr. N. T. E. HEWITT: That question is seem to have a few, too. easily answered. After having visited those courses, I was $46 worse off. Nevertheless, The Minister went to some length to it was good experience. I felt on my trip indicate the circumstances which led the that I had to find out how racing was Government into making the decision to conducted in various other parts of the world, alter the Act provision dealing with the and I will say here and now that in very few places that I saw-and I think I saw payment of the minimum tote dividend. most major racecourses in the world-does the standard come up to that of major courses This morning I directed a question to the in Australia. Some perhaps have advantages Treasurer with a view to getting certain that we have not. Referring particularly to information relevant to this Bin. Whatever Aqueduct, there is a computing system by legislation comes before us, whether we are in which, when the race starts, if a horse is agreement with it or not, in order to examine shown on the board that it will pay 5 to 1, it we need to be as fully informed about one can be assured that it will pay within a it as possible. Therefore I was rather cent or two of that price. Throughout the surprised that the Treasurer seemed to be whole of their sy&tem they have the computing very touchy about the fact that I sought down to a very fine art. It leaves very little some information about this matter. He to be desired by the punter. The races are suggested that I thought he was a mind televised so that people at the tote windows reader, and said that he was not in a position who cannot get back to the track in time to to make estimates. If he is not in a position watch the race can see it on camera. to make estimates along some of the lines I asked him about, I do not know how he Looking at racing generally, we in this can prepare a budget. After all, the pre country have nothing to be ashamed of. Our paration of a budget for a State or any courses are, without doubt, equal to some business is purely and simply the making of the finest in the world. There is none of estimates of coming events or of what better than Flemington and Eagle Farm. is going to happen. Although I acknowledge that there are difficulties in estimating some There are one or two minor matters of the things that I asked about and that that our principal clubs might look at. Per are relevant to our consideration of this haps on the semaphore board they could Bill, I think I was justified in asking the show the time of the next race and the Minister with the staff available to him. actual number of minutes remaining until to endeavour to provide this information. post time so that the patrons would know I asked him whether he could give "an at any stage exactly how long it was estimate of offset to the amount inourred in before the start of the next race. making up such dividends in t•he additional Do not let us get away from the practice amount of five per centum tax payable on of having book-makers on our racecourses. additional investments attracted by the mini They lend colour to racing. On courses in mum guaranteed dividend, particular.ly large America, France and Italy, where it is all individual wagers recently publicised," and he totalisator betting, there is not the same said he wuld n:ot read the min'ds of punters. colour as at Newmarket and Ascot in But he then went on to comment on the England. particular experience last Saturday with the tote. The racing ca1endar, year after year, Country clubs in my area have gained with minor exceptions, follows a r·egular a lot from the operations of the Totalisator pattern of events. To get a basis of Administration Board. Because of the T.A.B. comparison there would be nothing wrong many of them now have amenities they did with the· T,rea Mr. HANLON: Prior to the luncheon incurred in the operation of the tote. All recess I was referring to the fact that the that he quotes is the over-all loss and what Treasurer presented figures in answer to my it costs to make up the dividend. It must question this morning and expanded on be examined from the point of view of what them in his introduction of the Bill to sug it actually costs the Government rather than gest that a betting trend resulting from the what it costs to make up the dividend. introduction of the minimum dividend of I asked the Treasurer about fractions and 55 cents has caused the Government some he was not able to give an estimate of the concern. The Treasurer's figures have to be difference. However, he pointed out, quite examined a little more fully. He suggested validly, that the fractions since 1 July this that where 33t per cent. of the amount year have totalled $230,573 and said that the invested was on one horse he would terminate Government has had to pay out an addi the guarantee on that race, and he claimed tional $488,000 in that time. That $230,573 that there was a potential loss at that point is not a bad offset against the increased of 7 · 9 per cent. That is, however, offset at amount paid out, because the fractions and that point by the amount of tax taken by unclaimed dividends together amounted to the Government on that race and the con $339,507 in the whole of the last financial tributions towards the cost of operation of year. the tote, which reduce the apparent loss caused by making up the minimum dividend Mr. Chalk: That is before they started to to something considerably less than the per play the pool. centage mentioned, if they do not in fact Mr. HANLON: I know that; but whether cancel it out. or not it was before the people concerned Certainly the figures presented by the began playing the pool, the fractions Treasurer indicate an acceleration of this received in the five months of the financial betting trend in recent months. But that year from 1 July have totalled $230,573, does not necessarily indicate, as the Leader compared with $339,000 in the full 12 of the Opposition said, that it will continue. months of last financial year, and that Some of these investors might burn their included unclaimed dividends which are fingers. Bets to a total of $9,000 were additional yet to the $230,573. mentioned, the return on which would Mr. Chalk: We do not deny that. amount to $900. If they were losing bets, those punters would be chasing $9,000 Mr. HANLON: So, obviously, the amount immediately, and doing so at odds of 10 to 1 that is being received by the Government ~n is not a very pleasant pastime. If they in fractions is increasing considerably, and mvested at that rate and made initially even I think it is reasonable to suggest that nine successful investments at 10 to 1 on unclaimed dividends are also increasing and the tenth was a losing bet, they would slightly. They would not be related to the be 10 per cent. down on their investment. actual investments being made on the races. I suggest to the Treasurer that these Mr. Chalk: I don't deny that they would figures require consideration, and the Opposi be, and so would I. I do not get the tion is not satisfied that the position is quite as $9,000. he has stated. The question has to be looked at in the light of the actual moneys that Mr. HANLON: I understand the Minister's the Treasurer receives. While fractions do problems, and I am not pretending that they flow to the Government, they are simply a are not difficult. Some people outside the bonus from the point of view of taxation. industry may not understand them. The It is only because it is necessary to work T.A.B. is not a book-maker in the sense that out dividends on a rounded figure that frac it receives the whole amount of losing invest tions flow in excess of the actual rate of ments. The amount invested is spread over tax. three placegetters, and the Treasurer gets his share by deductions for taxation purposes Mr. O'Donnell: It does not cost the and operating expenses of the T.A.B. Government anything. There are no administrative costs. He again uses figures to tell a sad story of losses and to show that they are not offset Mr. HANLON: As the hon. member for by what is being obtained in taxation. Barcoo says, it does not cost the Govern ment anything to collect fractions. It is Mr. Smith: Experience justifies entirely additional money that flows to the Govern the Treasurer's course of action. ment, and that must be taken into considera tion. l\1r. HANLON: With due respect to the It is all very well for the Treasurer to hon. member for Windsor, I point out that at say, "Well, because we don't get it, we lose 33t per cent. on $100,000 the amount it". Admittedly, that is one way of looking required to make up completely the dividend at it. That is the type of argument that from 50 cents to 55 cents is $7,913. That is the Treasurer used relative to some of the offset to the extent of $5,000 by the amount drought funds-"We haven't got it, so we received in taxation, so that the net loss is have lost it". It is like the Minister not reduced to $2,913, and there is also an going to the races and then saying, "I lost amount of $8,750 for general expenses £1,000 on Saturday," and when you begin to 68 2074 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill sympathise with him you find that he is I became involved in the racing and trotting really saying that if he had gone to the races world purely as a means of assisting to develop and backed the six winners that he intended the wonderful Gold Coast, which is growing to back, he would have received £1 000 at the pace it is because of the work and which is a different story from having' lost energy put into it by men who are anxious £1,000. The Treasurer wants hon. members to see a continuation of its development. to sympathise with him on some aspects of I believe we have had some really wonderful fractions, which, from a taxation point of successes in establishing all the types of view, really do not belong to the Govern sport enjoyed in Brisbane and, for that ment but are purely and simply a bonus tax matter, in Australia. paid by punters who invest on the totalisator. It is most essential that we should have Unclaimed dividends are simply a bonus available racing clubs, trotting clubs, and all that the Government receives as a result of the other sports that might be required by careless~es~ on the part of punters. I am people visiting the area. I am certain the not o_b)ectmg to_ the Government's taking racing and trotting clubs on the South Coast them mto Consolidated Revenue but I think have played their part in assisting to develop that in New South Wales a ~uch longer our wonderful coast, but I was a bit time is allowed in which to make a claim. astounded to hear in the Minister's submission No claim can be made after a certain time that the Gold Coast is not considered to in Queensland if a ticket has been lost. be an important city-in fact, not as important as Ipswich. The matters that I have mentioned should be examined in any consideration of the Mr. Aikens: Why do you say that? position that the Treasurer has outlined Mr. CAREY: It is in the Minister's Possibly the steps that he has taken hav~ submission. My area has been very well been taken very hastily. Although I do not served by two very important racing clubs deny that the evidence shows that there is the Gold Coast Race Club and the Gold a trend in a certain direction, I think that Coast Trotting Club. I think these clubs ~he Treasurer may have panicked a little are doing an exceptionally good job, both m the extent of what he has done. for residents and for the sporting people who He certainly has a considerable amount visit the area, and we must impress upon the of money flowing into the Government coffers Minister, and the Cabinet-in fact, on all hon. by way o_f taxation from racing sources. members in this Chamber-that our area is I agree With the Minister; I certainly do different from any other area in the State. not want to be terribly worried about Hundreds of thousands of people visit the allowing investors from the South to come Gold Coast each year. They come from the here and draw off money from this State South, where they can enjoy night trotting, at the ~xpense of the Government, but I horse-racing. dog-coursing and so on, and should hke to see a bit of consistency from they are looking for this type of sport on the the Government in some of these matters. Gold Coast. They do not necessarily want When we express our concern about people to be on the beach all the time; they want from overseas drawing off money from our an outlet for their energies and an opportunity natural resources which should be protected to enjoy the sports they have in their own by the. Go':'ernment-our minerals and so States. or;-It Is_ qmck to say, "Let them come here With their money if they like". I suggest The hon. member for Bundaberg, as a former Treasurer of this State, was the man that the Treasurer apply consistency in first to see how necessary it was to allow the~e matters. I reserve other comments some form of legalised betting in an area until I have a chance to look at the Bill. as important as the Gold Coast. He Mr. CAREY (Albert) (2.26 p.m.): I want allowed-no doubt by Act of Parliament to assure the hon. member for Baroona the holding of trotting meetings on the Gold who has just resumed his seat, that thi~ Coast and in other parts of the State at which Government, and particularly our Ministers, fielding on fiat racing by book-makers was do_ not make h~sty decisions on Bills they legal. Previously visitors from the South bnn~ b~fore t_his Chamber. Everything is who, in their desire to place bets, either studied m detail and whatever we do is done large or small, on their selections, had deal for the benefit of the majority of the people ings with S.P. operators, were likely to be of Queensland, without fear or favour. fingerprinted and treated as criminals. The Gold Coast Trotting Club, then known as I want to join in this debate not because the Southport Trotting Club, provided this I belie~e I am an expert in the racing facility for legal betting. game-m fact, I know I am not-or because I am an expert gambler. I ask the Treasurer not to allow any inter Mr. Aikens: You are a very unsuccessful ference with the present racing dates of the punter? Is that it? Gold Coast Trotting Club. It conducts about 60 meetings a year, and in this Mr. CAREY: That might be right, too. way provides a wonderful service to the I do not study form and I use racing for community. I intend to ask the Treasurer the purpose for which I think it should later to give consideration to allowing more be used, namely, as a means of relaxation dates to the Gold Coast Race Club, but and a very good sport for those who love when I make this request I want to be certain animals. that it does not interfere with any of the Racing and Betting (30 NOVEMBER] Acts Amendment Bill 2075 racing dates of the trotting club, which was Mr. CAREY: At Stephen's Raceway we providing a facility for visitors before the get about 60 days a year and I ask Gold Coast Race Club was established. I the Treasurer particularly not to interfere hope that extra dates can be given to the with that arrangement. Gold Coast Race Club-- The Treasurer said there is nothing to Mr. Chalk: There is nothing to prevent stop the Gold Coast Race Club from racing your having extra dates. You can race there on a Saturday if we can get permission from on a Saturday if you want to, as long as the the principal club. I think he might investi principal club approves. gate this matter, because he made a statement this morning to which I should like to refer. Mr. CAREY: I am about to come to It concerned a limited provision to enable the that. holding of special race-meetings in certain Mr. Aikens: He thought you didn't know. provincial cities on the occasion of special festivals or celebrations. I am forced to .M.r. CAREY: As a matter of fact, that is presume that the Treasurer intends to take the point I want to make. some control over these days. It is probably well known by most hon. Mr. Chalk: Keep on reading. I said members that at one time we had three "once a year". racing clubs in the area-the Southport Trotting Club, the Oxenford Race Club and Mr. CAREY: Very well, once a year. the Southport Race Club. The Oxenford It may be necessary for us to appeal to club was forced to amalgamate with the the Treasurer to give us this extra day a Southport club. In those days the Oxenford year. At least that would give us 14 days Race Club had an excellent, well-kept instead of 13, although it would not bring us country track that was very popular with the up to the 18 we were hoping to get. racing public. Both Oxenford and Southport had eight race days a year prior to the Very recently the Gold Coast Racing Club amalgamation. asked the principal club for a permit to race on Christmas Eve, which is a Saturday, but At no time did I favour the amalgamation permission was refused. As a result, we of the two clubs. If two clubs-the cannot get this extra day. I have very little B.A.T.C. and the Q.T.C.-can operate in the complaint to make about the principal club; metropolitan area, with another race club at it is doing a very good job. But by the Bundamba, it will not be long before we same token I believe it regards the Gold are looking for two race clubs on the Gold Coast Race Club in the same light as many Coast. That is why I wanted to see the others, and compares it with Beaudesert, two clubs retained, each with its own Kilcoy and Esk. I am hoping that we may identity. By the amalgamation we lost three be able to influence the Treasurer to have a meetings a year, if not more. We were discussion with the principal club and con having 16 meetings but now we have only vince it that it is about time we got this extra 13 race days a year. We can have an extra race day by racing two days in the one racing day, or extra days if required. We week-a Wednesday meeting and a Thursday will then be serving the tourists who come meeting-more or less as a carnival. to the area. When the amalgamation was forced upon Mr. Aikens: You don't care about the us it was hoped by the then Treasurer-the bushmen out at Esk? present Sir Thomas Hiley-that further amalgamations would take place in the south Mr. CAREY: I care about the bushmen; east portion of Queensland and that we would I am very fond of them. As a matter of fact, receive 18 race days. very often when the hon. member is inter jecting I should like to be out in the bush. l\'l.r. Chalk: From whom are you going to It would be much easier to handle the take them? situation. Any people who have visited the Gold !Vlr. CAREY: We could take them from Coast Race Club will agree that it has the Gatton, Kilcoy and Esk, if amalgamation of best track outside the metropolitan area. It these smaller clubs could be achieved. It is has spent thousands of dollars on amenities very importnat for the Treasurer to realise the necessity of this. How in the name of for the visiting public. We have ample goodness can the Gold Coast be compared facilities to cater for horses and trainers. with Esk? I do not want to be discourteous There are plenty of horses-- or appear to be opposed to Esk, nor do I want Mr. Dean: Plenty of grog, too. to be parochial and oppose Kilcoy, but in the field of racing the Gold Coast is classed as Mr. CAREY: We have plenty of good little better than these small "B" class sea-water where the horses can swim. country clubs. Admittedly we get 13 race meetings a year. I see the Treasurer is taking There are quite enough horses in the State, a note of this and I will probably be particularly in the south-east corner, for us reprimanded by him later. to be able to race on Saturdays in competi tion with the two metropolitan clubs. Dur Mr. Newton: How many trotting days do ing the Christmas period our population you get? increases to approximately 160,000. Those 2076 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill people flock to the mcecourse to enjoy the with me. Members of the Townsville Turf sport they love. As we have an abundance Club are complaining bitterly that the money of horses, a very good track, and the best they are getting from the T.A.B. and through facilities outside the metropolitan area, I see their turnstiles is being channelled straight no reason why we should not be granted into the capacious and bottomless pockets extra days at least on very special occasions. of the Commissioner of Taxation. Perhaps Mr. Aikens: Such as your birthday? the hon. member for Baroona could tell us Mr. Sherrington: Alderman Harley's something about this. He appears to have birthday! some slight knowledge of the racing game and the operotions of the T.A.B. Mr. CAREY: I am not prepared to enter a debate on Alderman Harley. He is almost The Treasurer should have a close look at sub judice. I shall not delay the Committee. the operations of some of the turf clubs in I think I have made my point clear to the Queensland. Indeed, he might have a good Treasurer and the Government. They look at them all, because if this is affecting should assist our area, which is growing at one it must be affecting all of them. If it is such a rapid rate. In a previous speech in tru~, as reputable men who run the racing this Chamber I said the Brisbane City game in many parts of Queensland have told Council will have to be careful or we will me, that most, or a large proportion, of the outdo it. I am not bragging. The popu money that they get is going to the Federal larity of the Gold Coast is such that we could Taxation authorities, I cannot see why the probably have as many residents there as the State Treasurer, with all the demands being Brisbane City Council has in the enormous made on him for money for this, that and Greater Brisbane area. the other things, should not take a larger slice of T.A.B. revenue and prevent that I submit again that we should be allotted money from going to the Federal Govern extra racing days. It would be ideal if we ment. could be granted a couple of Saturday meet ings during the holiday season to cater for Perhaps there are here men who know visitors to our area. It would be to the something about taxation laws as they affect benefit of Queensland, as a whole, as well as turf clubs. Those are statements that have the Gold Coast, and I again ask the Treasurer been made to me by responsible men who to assist us in this matter. conduct the affairs of turf clubs in Queens Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (2.42 land. They say that their big problem is p.m.): I do not propose to keep the Com avoiding the payment of very heavy taxation mittee long. I believe that one of the great as a result of the remarkable prosperity of est orations ever delivered contains only 281 all turf clubs following the introduction of legislation setting up the T.A.B. My point words. It is unfortunate that many hon. members do not realise the significance of is that the Treasurer, with his taxation and that fact. financial advisers, should examine closely the possibility of taking more money for State Although the setting up of the T.A.B. was revenue from T.A.B. funds and preventing its bitterly opposed in the main by racing clubs going straight from the T.A.B. and the turf throughout Australia-they even organised clubs to the bottomless pockets of the what we might call the "wowser" section to Federal Taxation Commissioner. support them in their opposition-they have had a golden harvest-time ever since. Racing clubs in Queensland today, to use a general Mr. PILBEAM (Rockhampton South) (2.47 phrase, have more money than they know p.m.): I rise to support this measure. I am what to do with. pleased to note that it embodies no raising of the fees imposed on book-makers. Like the I know that in my own town the Towns hon. member for Mackenzie, I do not ville Turf Club has done some remarkable particularly like the T.A.B. as I do not wish work with the money it has received from the to see book-makers pushed out of existence. T.A.B. It has built a huge book-makers' I think they lend a lot of colour to the racing stand and is now building a huge spectators' game which, rightly or wrongly, has been stand. Instead of naming it after some termed the sport of kings. There is no doubt prominent family like the Cunninghams or that when the Treasurer indicated that fresh the Heatleys or many others who have done sources of revenue were being sought to something for racing in North Queensland raise the State's income, many of my book through the years, actuated by snobbery it maker friends thought they may have been intends to name it the Henry Abel Smith one of the targets and they implored me to Stand. Whoever the dickens Henry Abel use my efforts to see that that did not happen. Smith was, I don't know; perhaps members Although most of them ride in motor-cars of the club do. and have to pay extra taxation for that The point I want to make clear is that reason, they are relieved that their livelihood while the racing clubs are reaping a golden is not to be affected by the imposition of harvest from the operations of the T.A.B., further taxation on betting. There is no the person who is reaping the biggest golden doubt that book-makers are finding it harvest of all is the Federal Commissioner increasingly difficult to make a living, and of Taxation. Members of turf clubs through their number has been considerably reduced out Queensland have discussed this question since the T.A.B. entered the field. Racing and Betting [30 NovEMBER] Acts Amendment Bill 2077 Mr. Hanlon: The turnover tax has as much return for a place bet on that horse; but if to do with that as the T.A.B. has. he went to the T.A.B. and more than 33t per cent. of the total investment had been Mr. PILBEAM: Yes. Although I have no made on that horse, he would only receive reason to do so, I strongly support book his money back. makers. I think the racing game would be very dull if they were excluded from the Mr. Aikens: You don't tell us about Galilee colourful racing scene. paying 14 to 1 in the Melbourne Cup and I think most of the provisions of the Bill other things of that sort. are very good, and are merely common sense. If a meeting is washed out by rain, Mr. PILBEAM: There are exceptions. The a substitute meeting should be allowed. I T.A.B. has quite large pockets, and it should particularly welcome the provision to allow be able to give the punters a little bit of special race-meetings at centres where a go in the circumstances I have mentioned. festivals are held. I think almost every On this question I am torn between two centre now has a festival-we have one in loyalties-my loyalty to the Minister and Rockhampton-and will welcome the oppor my loyalty to the punters. It is rather poor tunity to hold a special race-meeting. for the punters who may invest on the Speaking of festivals, a word may be said T.A.B. for a place on a horse that may be for Melbourne Cup Day. I have for years 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 with the book-makers, only watched Commonwealth and State Govern to find that, because more than 33t per cent. ments make unsuccessful efforts to institute of the total money has been invested on that a national day in Australia at the end of horse, they only get their money back. If January, when schools are on holidays and the Minister intends to honour his promise all sporting clubs are in recess. I have not to be Santa Claus, I ask him to investigate seen the slightest glimmer of success in efforts this problem further. I am not particularly to introduce a national day at that time of the fond of supporting the Leader of the Opposi year. I think consideration might be given tion, but I think he has made a very good to adopting Melbourne Cup Day as a point in this respect. national day, because it is already half-way Mr. Aikens: Why don't you be fair and to that end. It is truly a national day. If say that the T.A.B. is better than the book Melbourne Cup Day was made a national makers? day and everyone was given a holiday, we would not see the spectacle of the gentlemen Mr. PILBEAM: In the case of horses on of the Press sitting up in the Press gallery which a considerable amount of money is counting the number of members in this invested, the T.A.B. is not nearly as good Chamber when the Melbourne Cup was as the book-makers. The book-makers may being run. quote 3 to 1 or 4 to 1, but one does not Mr. Aikens: What about a Rugby League know what the odds will be on the T.A.B. day, a cricket day, a basketball day, or On one occasion I backed a horse on the some other day? T.A.B. that was quoted at 3 to 1 by the book-makers, and I received even money. Mr. PILBEAM: The Melbourne Cup is I complained about that to the editor of the most truly national event on the sporting a newspaper, who was even more vociferous calendar. in his complaints because he put the wrong number of the horse on his ticket and did Mr. Aikens: Oh, bunkum! not get anything. He is even less fond of Mr. PILBEAM: I would argue that with the T.A.B. than I am. anyone. It has a greater national flavour Generally speaking, I support the pro than any other day on the sporting calendar. posed Bill; there is only the small exception I am not very much concerned about to which I referred. Although I assure the the provisions giving relief to book-makers Treasurer that I do not intend to divide the in the Leger enclosure in Brisbane or with Committee on it, I do wish to have my the provisions relating to barrier trials. They objection recorded. I do not like some do not concern the people of Rockhampton. aspects of the operation of the T.A.B., but But I am concerned about the minimum I realise how valuable its operations have 55 cent return on place betting. I do not been to race clubs. They have enabled quarrel with the part of the provision that a great number of amenities to be placed deals with two-year-old and weight-for-age on racecourses. races, or races in which the favourite is at Mr. N. T. E. Hewitt: Especially in small odds on; but it does not seem fair that a country centres. punter should miss out on races where more than 33t per cent. is invested on one runner. Mr. PILBEAM: Yes. It has allowed clubs I have suffered a good deal at the hands to provide increased prize money, and it of the T.A.B. on the occasions when I have has enabled the Rockhampton Jockey Club used it. There may be eight horses in the to put far more amenities on to the course race, and one horse has a fairly large amount in Rockhampton than are available on any invested on it. If a punter went to a book other provincial course, including the much maker, he might receive an even-money publicised Gold Coast course. 2078 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill l\lr. DEAN (Sandgate) (2.55 p.m.): It is a game over a period of many years and that never-ending source of amazement to me to they limit betting on 2-yellJr-old rac·es, we·ight see the alacrity with which this Gov·ernment for-age races, set-weight races and races in introduces legis}ation that has anything to which odds-on favourites are engaged. ii do do with gambling or liquor whilst, at the not consider there is any necessity for this same time, we have very important measures legislation to go past what they do. If the waiting for months before being brought people who are supposed to be doing so well before this Ohamber-matters such as the are the menace they are supposed to be, they Ambulance Act and Iegislation of a similar are, after all, only professional punters, and rrature. Anything dealing with racing or liquor is brought in with all possible haste. book-makers have to accept bets from pro fessional punters. Book-makers have to Mr. Aikens: And the very basis of racing accept their bets and pay out if their is deceit and greed. They are rogues and selections win. If they did not, the race vagabonds. clubs would be asking why they were not facing up to their responsibilities. Mr. DEAN: I am personally convinced that this legislation is a lead-up to the I was very concerned when I first heard establishment in the B·risbane area of night of the depredations of these professionals, trotting. It is also a softening-up for the because I felt that it could mean a reduction introduction of mid-week r-acing in the in T.A.B. revenue and, as a result, a reduction Greater Br-isbane area. in the amount of money distributed to small country clubs. I am not worried about the Even the so-called terrible Labour Govern clubs in the metropolitan area or in Townsville ments, about which we hear so much from or Rockhampton. I am concerned about the other side, realised the evil of mid-week clubs in rural centres that have been racing within the Greate>r Brisbane area and provided by local people who, in the main, the .great .loss to the community as a result are not gamblers and could not be classed of industria-l absenteeism caused by it. From as bettors, but who, because they felt that my persona•! observations, I am very firmly such an amenity was needed in their centres. convinced that this heralds the beginning of banded together and formed a club where night trotting and the re-introduction of the they raced horses at considerable personal menace of mid-week racing. expense. I do not intend to make a long speech Many country clubs have come into because I do not have to do so to make my existence purely by the efforts of local people personal feelings clearly understood. We hear in this way. For many decades most country about the .golden harvest from the T.A.B. clubs just battled on, and whatever was It is not a golden harvest in my eyes; it is a needed was done by voluntary labour. The harv·est of tmgedy, of broken homes and distribution of T.A.B. money has been of broken families. I think every member of great assistance to these country clubs. It the Chamber from time to time must have has not flowed to them in great quantities, had tragedies caused by gambling brought but in most instances they have received to his notice, just as I have. There is no sufficient to ensure the success of their doubt that it makes the greatest oontributi:on annual race meeting. If that meeting is a towards broken homes in the world today, success it means that there is money available especially in Queensland. for the club to provide better amenities. In addition, racing and gambling ,Jegisbtion I was talking to a gentleman the other generaily is not being enforced and I have day who told me that although he has no no doubt tJhat this one will be no exception. actual interest in horse-racing itself, he felt No-one will deny that the T.A.B. has had it incumbent on him to prepare a horse a detrimental effect upon small sh:opkeepe.rs. to race at the local race club. It cost him Many small ,businessmen have informed me $40 to have it prepared for one race-meeting. that today housewives come into their stores He would not even have 50 cents on the and, instead of spending the extra 3s. or 5s., tote but he was prepared to do that. That they now put it on the T.·A.B. It is only a is the type of person we have in country small bet in itself but it becomes a very large areas. one when cakulated over a period of time, and the small shopkeeper is suffering thereby. It is only justice that money should flow to country clubs from the profits of the That is all I have to say. I simply wished T.A.B. When we look at the money the tJo voice my feelings and, to be consistent Government receives in revenue from the with my idea:ls, I completely oppose this T.A.B. and from the book-makers it is legislation. obvious that this is a flourishing business for the Government. Most of this money Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (2.59 p.m.): I comes to the Government without any effort enteT this debate because I really believe by the Government. It receives revenue that the Treasurer is taking excessive steps from the T.A.B. by way of its statutory to lessen the possibility of the Government percentage, plus unclaimed dividends and being put in the invidious position of having fractions. All that this means to the to pay out money to meet the 55-cent Government in administrative work is the minimum dividend. Whilst I admit that book issuing of a receipt for a cheque received makers have been very wise in the racing within a week of a race-meeting. Racing and Betting [30 NovEMBER] Acts Amendment Bill 2079 Undoubtedly totalisator operations have expressed by members of both the Opposi been a decided advantage to all Governments. tion and the Government. In summing up, Over the years there has not been sufficient I think it would be fair to say that, generally appreciation of the work done by local speaking, the proposals I have placed before people in providing racecourses in their the Chamber are acceptable with one centres. Naturally, book-makers would field exception, namely, that relating to the 55- on these courses and they would be paying cent dividend. I have heard no real criticism Federal income tax on their profits and of the widening of various avenues for State tax on their betting tickets. Of course, specific race-meetings as outlined in the Bill. there was the totalisator as well. It was It is true that the hon. member for run by the club and all the profits went Sandgate referred to what he described as to the Government, without any cost to it. an extension of the facilities for gambling. All these things have happened, Mr. Rae, However, I think that hon. members on and you would know all about them. For both sides of the Committee realise only too years we felt that the future of racing in well the gambling conditions and the extent the country was very poor, and we accepted of S.P. betting that existed prior to the the T.A.B. with reluctance. We regret the introduction of the T.A.B. I am fairly con disappearance of the book-makers who, fident that the citizen of today concedes through their patronage of the racecourse, that the establishment of the T.A.B. and the and by fielding in numbers, supplied a con wiping out of the S.P. operator have been siderable percentage-in some cases virtually in the best interests of the State generally. all-of the prize money available for the The principal point raised about the 55- day's racing. cent dividend was that I am perhaps going Mr. N. T. E. Hewitt: Many book-makers too far in relation to the 3 3t per cent. left the country districts because of good Mr. O'DonneH: I think you are. roads elsewhere, whereas previously they would have fielded in the country. Mr. CHALK: I shall give the facts as I Mr. O'DONNELL: I agree with what the know them. The Leader of the Opposition, hon. member has said. I also know that and particularly the hon. member for book-makers are getting out of the business Baroona, said I was too cautious. The hon. today, not because of good bitumen roads member for Barcoo said the same thing. Let but because it is no longer a profitable us look at the situation as I know it over enterprise for them to engage in. They say the last few weeks. I must face facts. What that the T.A.B. gets certain patronage from was the position on Melbourne Cup Day? the people at home and, into the bargain, It has been referred to as the national day. the fielding tax has been a crippling blow Normally it is a day when, because of the to them. I know that to be so. comparatively small racing operations that take place in Queensland, there is a fairly There are times when the punter is fairly worth-while return to the totalisator in successful. In the rural areas, without con Queensland. On Melbourne Cup Day, tinual racing week after week, that can be because the T.A.B. paid out $60,178 more disastrous for a book-maker because he does than the total return from all sources in not get an opportunity to have his good this State on that day, we had to pay $1,161 days as do book-makers in the larger out of Consolidated Revenue. centres. I feel that some good has come from the Mr. O'Donnell: What about the dividends T.A.B.-and some evil, too. The Govern you are getting. ment should keep very strongly in mind Mr. CHALK: If the hon. member will that it must preserve all the small country listen, I shall give him all the facts. He clubs that have been brought into being by the wonderful pioneering work and thought is howling about this. I accepted him as a of local residents who felt that in providing reasonable racing man. I tell him now that a race club they were providing a local he has no concept of what is going on in the amenity. By their self-sacrifice-not because racing world if he advocates what he sug they had a professional interest in racing gested a few moments ago. He praised the and their interest in the district, they have T.A.B. for what it is doing for country rac contributed something to the districts and ing. By the same token, he advocates that the towns in which they reside. not only should the revenue that has been coming into the T.A.B. be taken away, but I should like the Treasurer to look a little also that Consolidated Revenue meet some more closely at the provision concerning the of the requirements. If I accept last month 55-cent minimum dividend. If he follows as a fair pattern, on the figures put forward completely the path he has outlined today by the hon. member for Baroona we will he will have it very much his way in the suffer a loss of $2,200,000 a year. future, to the detriment of the small punter. I do not mind how hard he hits the big Let us be realistic about the situation. punters. In my view, the small betters are Members of the Opposition have said-and those who make the racing game. I agree with them-that we do not want to set up a facility for the "big" man. I have Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer spoken to every possible source of informa Treasurer) (3.9 p.m.), in reply: I have tion on this matter. I ask hon. members listened very carefully to the points of view opposite to suggest a scheme under which 2080 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill this State can possibly eliminate the "big" in the second place, the Treasmy of the State. fellow. We cannot say to the big bettor with There has been a deficiency of $257,433 $9,000, "You can't bet here." After all, the since 1 July in the amount required for pay State puts itself in the position not of a cuts, and that has had to be met by the book-maker, which is what the hon. members Government. What we are now trying to do seem to overlook. is devise· a system under which the punters Mr. O'DonneU: May I ask one question? wm at least get thdr fractions back. H the punter is shrewd enough-! miglht say "lucky" Mr. CHALK: Y·es. enough, because very often Iuck prays a fairly large part in this-and he can follow Mr. O'Donnell: ·Why can't you apply llhe the pattem, he can still win from the Govern 33t per cent. plan to every race? me·nt over and above the £ractions and Mr. CHALK: Because I want to give the over and above the 5 petr cent. punter a chance to get his money back. The I do not deny that the figures used by hon. member fotr Barooo is, I know, a racing the hon. member for Baroona were correct, man. I have seen him at the track, and I but I do not think they were very easily know that he knows more about this than understood. most other members on his side of the Chamber. The hon. member knows only too Mr. Hanlon: I did not use them for one well What the situation i~ with weight-for-age race; I used them on that amount of money. races and races for two-yeatr-o1ds. ·I am pr·epared to exclude them. The hon. member Mr. CHALK: I do not deny that the figures for :Baroona produced some figures and used by the hon. member for Baroona were worked on a muoh ·larger scale. I can pToduce correct, but he referred to $5,000 and $7,000, and so on. If we take 200 tickets in a a scale· that is much easier to un:cterstand, pool, that gives an investment of $100. The and it shows where the State stands to lose. amount deducted is 13!- per cent., of which Under the system DJOW put before the 5 per cent. goes to the Government and Si Committee, the State can still lose money. per cent. to the T.A.B. That leaves $86t On the other hand, the State is not sup in the pool. The basis on which it is split posed to be a book-maker. In the operations is 33t per cent., and if one divides $86!-, of the T.A.IB., the State legalises a pool of one gets back to $28.75 in the pool. If money provided by puntetrs. We are not the pay-out is made on the basis of 55 cents, book~makers. What we llhen ensure is that one pays on 52 tickets at $28.60, which the pool of money lega1ly obtained is fair}y represents 26 per cent. of the pool. distributed among those who selected the horses that were placed first, second, and I am taking a risk in relation to 33t per cent. of the pool. It is true that on the 26 third, or on whateveq- basis dividen~ds are per cent., as far as I am concerned, I still paid. In return, the State collects a com have in "kitty" the 5 per cent. commission mission (ca11 it what you like) for the I took and a small percentage of fractions. operation of the pool. There is also Si- per Assuming that it takes 1 · 1 per cent. of cent. taken out by 1!he T.IA.B. so that, in the pool to go from 26 per cent. to 27 all, 13t petr cent. comes out of the pool. per cent., it will take 2·2 per cent. to go When the T.1A!B. was originally established, from 26 per cent. to 28 per cent. Add the State indicMed that it would be pPepared the 5 per cent. to 31 per cent. of the to stand on the basis of a 50-cent, or money pool, and I am broke. I have expended back, div1dend. That applied for years, and the 5 per cent.; I have expended what never in my racing activities did I hear any the fractions represent in the pool. So criticism of it. the Government still stands to lose, even on 3H per cent., roughly the difference Mr. Hanlon: You are not changing that. between 5 · 5 and 7 · 7 per cent. That is a fair risk. Mr. CHALK: No. Wihen it was seen that ad~ditional money would be obtained because I believe that the Government has been of an alteration in fractions on the intro perfectly fair, because, in broad principle, duction of decimal currency, the Govetrn it has stood up to everything it said it ment took action, with which I think the would do. It is still prepared to provide Opposition agreed, to give the small punter a little money over and above the com an opportunity ~o get llhis rraction back. We mission or its share of the fractions. All are not complaining if he does so. He is I am doing is trying to honour the Govern being given every opportunity to get it back ment's obligation and encourage the small by his skill in selecting winners. punter to stay in. I have made it difficult, I believe, for the big punter to come in. Somebody referred to taking advantage of the ptrovision of a minimum dividend of 55 I ask hon. members to consider the situa cents as a "racket". I do not eaU it that. tion of the big punter, and I know the hon. It is legal to take advantage of it as long as member for Baroona is already aware of the Government is prepared to continue this. It is easy to say, "All right, we will making such payments. However, as put $9,000 on the pool". What happens when Treasurer, I am not :prepared to permit this the big punter wins? The Government has drain on money that would otherwise find to make a contribution not from the pool its way into, in t!he first place, turf clubs, and, but from its fractions or its commissions. Racing and Betting [30 NOVEMBER] Acts Amendment Bill 2081 As I indicated earlier, on one day the Govern becoming a punter's paradise for big-money ment had to pay out $59,000. If the punter punters, and the Government just cannot who invests $9,000 loses the $9,000, it stand it. does not come back to the Government, which receives only its commission. The remainder Mr. Bromley: Do you bet with the tote of the money is spread over the pool and, or the S.P. bookies? consequently, is paid out to John Citizen. Good luck to him! He is entitled to it. Mr. CHALK: I always bet legally. But John Citizen does not contribute when the Government loses. The money then I am grateful for information that has been comes, first of all, from the fractions which supplied to me. Previously I said I had no we are prepared to meet and which we said dissection of the T.A.B. investment on Light we would meet; then it comes out of our Fingers. Most people who know anything commission and then out of Consolidated about racing know that Light Fingers is not Revenue. a two-year-old. In reply to hon. members opposite who are interjecting, I do not know So long as I am Treasurer of this State I what race this was. It was race No. 4 in am not prepared to turn the Government Melbourne on 12 November, 1966. It might into what might be termed a milch cow. I have been a weight-for-age race. On course, am prepared to give the punter an oppor in Brisbane 1,500 tickets were taken out on tunity to match his skill with the tote in Light Fingers out of 29,000; 49,000 tickets racing, but I am not willing to go beyond out of the 69,000 were taken out off the the 33t per cent. The figures have been course. The normal dividend would have worked out; they can be seen by hon. been 25 cents, but we had to pay 55 cents. I members, and I ask them to examine the have looked at this from every possible position. If I can be shown any basis on angle. I want to give the punter a chance, which a fairer and better method can be if he can select the winners. evolved I am prepared to listen, but I am not going to allow this Chamber to rise and Mr. Pilbeam: We want a better chance. then find the Government getting some of the hidings-if I might term them that-that Mr. CHALK: The hon. member wants to we have received in recent times. take a tote ticket each way. He wants to tell Let me take one particular day as an his punters in Rockhampton what a wonderful example. Most of this trouble is occurring fight he put up here, and at the same time on southern events. In Victoria, over the pat me on the back saying, "You are doing Melbourne Cup period, I was known as a good job." He cannot have it both ways. Father Christmas. Let me take the example The Leader of the Opposition said the of the horse Domremon, which was racing in. Opposition would examine the Bill. I believe Melbourne. The ratio of tickets on our own that hon. members opposite will. I have racecourse was about 5 to 1. In other words, issued an invitation to them, and I assure one ticket on Domremon and five tickets on them that if they can point out some other other runners. But on this race, off-course method of bringing rubout what is desired I 122,485 tickets were taken out on this horse am prepared to look at it. I am writing into in a pool of 157,000 tickets. the Act a provision whereby an alteration can Then take the example of the horse, Take be effected by Order in Council. They might Leave, which won at Bundamba; 568 tickets suggest a little later on that 33t per cent. out of 12,000 were taken out on Take Leave is too low. If they can give me reason to, at Bundamba, but 23,000 out of 34,000 I am prepared to look at 40 per cent. The tickets were taken out away from the course fractions ought to go back to the people, but on this horse. Look at the percentage-500 nO't to the big operators from the South. out of 12,000 on the course compared with iJ: want to see them distributed to the 23,000 out of 34,000 off the course! advantage of the little punters in and around Brisbane and other places where the T.A.B. I ask hon. members to consider the matter operates. in all fairness. I could give examples of other horses. Domremon won twice. On Mr. Hanlon: The main complaint is that one occasion in September 3,508 tickets were you turned the knob down too far. taken out on it on the course and 29,000 out of 34,000 were taken out off the course. Mr. CHALK: I have turned the knob down where I did because I believe this is the Mr. Pilbeam: They are two-year-old reasonable place to turn it down. If I put it races, are they not? at 50 per cent.~! know that hon. members opposite have some figures there, and 50 per Mr. CHALK: Some of them are two-year cent. is the figure that has been suggested olds. by-- Mr. Hanlon: Most of those were two-year old races. Mr. Hanlon: We did not have any approach. Mr. CHALK: Yes. I have not the figures before me relating to Light Fingers, but I Mr. CHALK: I am not saying that, but I know what happened in regard to that horse know that one particular organisation-call in a particular race. It is true that this is it what you like-came to me and said, 2082 Racing and Betting [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill "This will be all right as long as you take to Esk. I am sure that the Minister for it back one-fifth." I recognise some of the Local Government would be only too pleased arguments that have been put up-- to discuss the Esk situation with him. Mr. Hanlon: We did not have any Mr. Carey: Could I interpose by saying approach. that but for the amalgamation of the clubs I could well understand the position. I would Mr. CHALK: I accept that, if the hon. pot expect anybody to take race meetings member says it. from other clubs. The hon. member for Mackenzie gave Mr. CHALK: The hon. member suggested some indication of what he saw on the other that they amalgamate and give some of side of the world. I have looked at some of the dates to Southport. A few moments the overseas racecourses. I am not in favour ago he objected to the fact that with the of wiping out book-makers. I think they play amalgamation of Southport and Oxenford a part in racing, although there are some some dates were taken away. He cannot places where only a totalisator operates. argue both ways. Book-makers have been accepted as part of the Australian way of life, and I would not Mr. Carey: It is what we were told at want to wipe them out as we have them at the time that I am concerned about. the present time. Mr. CHALK: I know of no approach or The hon. member for Albert told us the desire to amalgamate these clubs. The story of the race club at Southport. The reasons for the amalgamation of Oxenford Southport club would be entitled to race on and Southport are well known to the hon. Saturdays. There is nothing in the Acts to member. stop it. On the other hand, it is true that The hon. member for Townsville South we recognise the set-up between the principal referred to the amount of money paid by clubs in the metropolitan area and the clubs certain race clubs to the Federal Treasurer. outside. The principal clubs allocate the A race club is run on the same lines as any racing dates. I know that Mr. Hardy, the other business. It is true that a certain president of the Gold Coast Race Club, made amount of money goes from the T.A.B. to approaches to the principal clubs. On my the race clubs. I believe that in most cases recommendation-! think it is quite well race clubs are doing one of two things known-the club made what might be with it. They are either placing the major described as a re-application. part of it back into racing in increased prize money and so providing a greater I know the views of certain members of attraction-owners, trainers and jockeys are the principal club. I know also that there entitled to some benefit from this allocation is some confusion because it is felt that or they are spending it on capital expenditure. horses which would run in Saturday meetings That is a good idea, too. Capital expenditure, at the Gold Coast would be taken away as in any other business, must be taken from some of the Brisbane clubs, particularly into consideration in the balance sheet, and Albion Park. I do not subscribe to that from the balance sheet it finds its way into view, but that is the attitude adopted by income tax. While none of us likes paying the principal club at present. Rather than taxes, if we are getting more money we my interfering with the operations of the pay increased taxes. From my point of principal club, I feel the Southport Club view, I do not think we can argue that must press its case fully with the principal a turf club should be exempted from tax, club. I might say that I believe it will any more than any other body should be. ultimately win through. Candidly, I do not think it is the prerogative or the right of The hon. member for Sandgate laid the the Minister in charge of racing to interfere charge that this was the thin edge of the with race clubs in the allocation of racing wedge for the introduction of mid-week dates. I recall a prominent Labour politician racing and night trotting in Brisbane. I making a statement to the effect that when do not know how he read that into the the Minister in control of racing starts to Bill. There is nothing in it, in any shape interfere in racing, there are problems for or form, that extends mid-week race meetings. the Government. I will not say who said I indicated that in certain places where a that. carnival was being held a race-meeting could be held. If that is the hon. member's basis !Hr. N. T. E. Hewirt: It would most for thinking that this is introducing mid-week probably have more effect on the trotting racing into Brisbane, I must say it is nothing down there than on the racing in Brisbane. other than sheer nonsense. Mr. CHALK: I have deliberately refrained I do not think there is much more to from discussing trotting in this debate. I which I need refer. The hon. member for do not think it should be introduced at Barcoo, more or less concluding the remarks this juncture. There will be an opportunity of the Oppmition, indicated the benefit that for hon. members to discuss trotting in due flows to country race clubs from the T.A.B. course. I fully agree with him. One has only to As for taking away meetings from other visit the four small race clubs in his elec country centres, I suggest to the hon. member torate to see the benefits they have received. for Albert that perhaps he should raise the It is not the desire of the Government or, matter on some other occasion. He referred I am sure, the Opposition to do anything Stamp Acts and Another [30 NOVEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 2083 to prevent those small race clubs from payments. The Bill lays it down clearly operating. We hope that they enjoy their that on each occasion the transferee of the sport and are able to provide more amenities. motor vehicle is to bear the cost of the duty. It is better to have them receiving an allo cation from the T.A.B. than having an S.P. The hon. member for Baroona then set operator in those townships receiving the out to make the point that the Government only benefit. was proposing to prevent double duty being paid on share transactions but was prepared The principal reason for introducing the to permit more than one charge during the Bill at this late stage of the session was to life of a vehicle. I do not think that the clean up the 55-cent dividend position. I member really understood my remarks con hope the action I have taken will not only cerning the double duty on share transactions. give the small punter an opportunity to try The purpose of the amendment is to prevent his luck against the machine, but also elim the levying of duty in more than one State inate the large punter whose actions, unfor in respect of one and the same transaction; tunately, have been to the detriment of the it in no way alters the principle that duty original intention of the Government. is payable in respect of each successive sale Motion (Mr. Chalk) agreed to. of a parcel of shares. Exactly the same Resolution reported. principle will continue to apply as with transfers of vehicles; duty will be paid once FIRST READING each time the shares change hands. In fact, the Bill does contain provision to overcome Bill presented and, on motion of the possibility of duty in respect of the pur Mr. Chalk, read a first time. chase of a motor vehicle having to be paid in two States. If a person has had his STAMP ACTS AND ANOTHER ACT vehicle registered in his name in another AMENDMENT BILL State and later moves to Queensland, he will not have to pay duty when he registers it SECOND READING here. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer The hon. member for Townsville North Treasurer) (3.44 p.m.): I move- suggested that the duty may be reflected in "That the Bill be now read a second the purchase price with the result that the time." purchaser will be required to pay duty not I shall not repeat what I said in my reply only on the value of the vehicle but also on at the introductory stage concerning the the amount of duty included in the total claim by members of the Opposition that the payment. That will not happen because the new duty on motor vehicle registrations and Bill states that the duty, if paid by the trans transfers is a sectional tax and that the feror, is recoverable from the transferee. It revenue raised under this particular head will be recoverable as a separate item form ing of stamp duty should be used in the ing part of the total amount payable, and provision of motoring facilities. I have said there should be no mistake as to the net enough to show that the burden of the tax amount paid for the vehicle. will be spread very widely throughout all sections of the community, and that there The hon. member for Toowoomba East is no more reason why this revenue should raised the question of disputes over values not be spent on general Government ser of motor vehicles. I do not think that this vices than there is in respect of stamp duty will be as big a problem as he fears. In or any other transactions. Nor do I wish the great majority of cases the transaction to add to the tendency of members on the will be one of sale, and the sale price will be other side of the House to turn the debaw the best indicator of the value of the vehicle. on the measures contained in this Bill into If the parties submit evidence that the vehicle a general discussion on Commonwealth was sold on the open market for a certain States finances, a matter on which there has sum, then the Commissioner of Stamp been ample scope for discussion on other Duties would need a very good reason before occasions. I do, however, want to refer he would suggest that the true value was to some of the comments made at the intro higher than that figure. Similar provisions ductory stage which refer specifically to the have now been operating in other States for principles included in the Bill. some time, and I have received advice that they are having no difficulty with this aspect. The hon. member for Baroona criticised It must be remembered that as the duty is the duty on motor-vehicle registrations and to be levied on the basis of $1 for every $100, transfers on the ground that duty will become or part of $100, of the value, further duty payable several times during the life of a would be sought only if it is thought that the vehicle if it changes hands on several occa value should be in excess of the next round sions. There is nothing new in this principle; $100. In the first instance, the duty will be if I buy a house today and decide to sell it paid on _the basis o! the value declared by again in six months, the H per cent. duty the applicant, and If the Commissioner of will be payable on each occasion. How Stamp J?uties co?siders that duty has been ever, as with the duty on motor vehicle underpaid, he will have power to call for transfers, I will not be responsible for both evidence as to the value and, if necessary, 2084 Stamp Acts and Another [ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill recover the additional amount that he con the report in "The Courier-Mail" this morn siders is payable. The taxpayer will have ing outlining a new form of insurance that the normal right of appeal to the court insurance companies hope to introduce, against an assessment by the Commissioner. possibly from 1 February, 1967. The hon. member also suggested that the The proposal has been made suddenly tax will have an undesirable effect on the it did not come to my knowledge until late motor industry at a time when it is already last week that it was possible that such a depressed. I do not think that the amount change would occur-and it has raised one of duty will have any noticeable effect on or two problems for the Government, par demand for new vehicles. Further, although ticularly relative to its revenue. Conse new registrations during the current year quently, I have circulated an amendment have not been as high as the boom figures that I shall be asking hon. members to for 1963 to 1965, they have been well agree to at a later stage. I cannot indicate above the level for any previous year, and, at this juncture what the Insurance Com as I said earlier, I think it has been better missioner thinks of the scheme prepared by for the Australian economy that the demand the insurance companies-all I can say is for new vehicles has returned to a steadier that it is under consideration by him-but growth rate. Competition between various I believe that it will be implemented, and manufacturers and distributors has also the amendment that I am proposing will increased, largely because of the greater make the provisions of the Bill conform to variety of makes now offered on the Aus the new pattern of insurance. If it does tralian market, and it must be admitted become a reality, then the basis on which we that the existence of such competition has collect stamp duty will have been removed. some favourable aspects. Some manufac Therefore, I want to place before this turers who expanded their output during the Chamber, very briefly, the details of an years of very high demand naturally have amendment that I propose to move in the had to slow down production now that the Committee stage. market has settled down at a lower level; but I would by no means regard the indus Since the Bill was read a first time it has try as depressed. become nece~sary to add a further provision in re-spect of stamp duty on comprehensive It was suggested by the Leader of the motor vehicle insu,rance polides to provide Opposition that the tax would fall heavily for a new insurance system which insurers on young people who bought cheap second desire to introduce throughout Australia hand vehicles and traded them frequently. from the beginning of February next. I On the figures he mentioned, the duty would received some definite advice on uhese pro amount to only $2 to $3 on each trans posals only a few days ago after in~urers action, and I do not think that such a realised that the present stamp duty provisions charge would cause any hardship to young in Queensland would be unworkable for the people today. It would, in fact, be equal to type of scheme they propose to introduce. only a few days' normal running costs of I should inform the House that, before any the vehicle. new scheme can be introduced in 1Jhis State, The duty on workers' compensation it must have the approval of the Insurance premiums was criticised by the hon. member Commissioner. However, he is examining for Belmont, who suggested that holders of the proposals and I expect an early decision. life, fire and other policies would suffer But if the scheme is approved, either with from this tax. However, I assure the hon. or without amendment, it is obvious that member that entirely separate accounts are the Stamp Acts will have to be amended to kept for workers' compensation transactions cope with the new principles. and that this duty will not in any way affect profits available for distribution on other At present, the amorunt of stamp duty on classes of insurance. comprehensive policies is calculated at uhe rate of 2-! cents for each $100 of the amount The hon. member for Chatsworth men insured. However, I believe that under the tioned the provisions that representatives of new propos,al no in~ured amount will be the various States agreed upon to simplify stated, the vehicle merely being insured share transfer procedures. The Minister for for its fair market value and lihe premium Justice has introduced legislation in the last being cakulated on the make and age of day or two to give effect to these measures the vehicle and the accident record of the in Queensland. The problem of Table A owner. under the Companies Act has been con sidered, and the legislation will take care Mr. Tucker: That will happen f,rom year of the point raised by the hon. member. I to year? thank him for raising it. Mr. CHALK: Yes. I have now covered those questions that were not dealt with in my reply at the If we can no longer }evy duty on the basis introductory stage. Hon. members will have of the sum iwured, on what otlher basis had time to study the measure in detail, can duty be levied? The first basis could and I do not think there is any need for me be to char,ge a rate of stamp duty as a per to repeat the principles that I explained centage of premium payable; and the second previously. However, there is a further to charge a fiat rate per v,ehicle. A flat matter that I wish to raise. It relates to rate is prefe-11red because a rate based on Stamp Acts and Another [30 NOVEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 2085 premiums •would require more difficult There was some criticism of our attitude in calculations as to the amount payable by adopting that stand immediately at the intro each policy-illolder, and would mean that any ductory stage. On the introduction of a Bill future increase in premiums would result which includes a number of different in greater contributions to revenue. At provisions, the Oppasition, in the exercise present, increasing Pevenue results only from of its judgment, has to decide whether an increase in the total amount insured and it should indicate opposition to some the insurers claim it would be unfair that thing in the Bill that it considers. the Government should benefit from any overshadows any other proviSions. We worsening in the accident rate. With this decided that we would oppose the Bill view, I agree. right from the introductory stage; indeed, we It has been estimated that the present divided the Committee on it. I think our average duty per vehicle is about 45 cents. action was justified by the prominence that Of course, there are at present wide varia was given to it at the time by the Press. The tions from the average stamp duty of 45 cents newspapers realised that this was a matter of great importance to many people, introducing per vehicle. Under a flat !ate some m~to~ists will lose, while others gam. These vanat1ons as it did a taxing element that would affect in duty under the present arrangements are many people in the community. not solely attributable to varying values of Of comse, the Government likes things to vehicles ins>ured; variations are a,lso caused run along as it wants them to. Last night we by the additional amount of cover granted by saw the Premier get quite upset when he some companies in the form of personal told us that the Government must govern. accident benefits, additional cover for third vVe accept that Governments must govern, party property damage, and other special but in doing so they must have regard to the cover. Parliament. The rights of the Parliament are not to be subjugated. Unfortunately we are I thus inform the House that during the reaching that situation more and more Committee stage I will move an amendment frequently. Hon. members opposite make no to the Bill to apply a fla,t rate of 45 cents per apology for the fact that they want Parlia annum per vehicle to comprehensive motor ment to be merely the instrument of the vehicle insurance policies. The new duty Government to present measures in the way will apply to an passenger and goods-carrying the Government desires them to be presented; vehicles. It will not apply to motor-cycles, they want Parliament to follow procedures caravans and trailers, which will continue suitable to the Government. to be insured for a sum nominate·d by the owner and accepted by the insurer. Thus, the We intend to oppose the Bill again at this old rate of duty can ap:PlY to these vehicles. stage because of our overriding objection to The new duty wH! come into operation on portions of it, although there are parts of it a date to be proclaimed, and that date wiU to which we do not take objection. We do coincide with the date of intwduction of not want to be associated with a Bill contain any new system of insurance of which the ing parts to which we are completely Insurance Commissioner may approve. opposed. There are hon. members opposite who would try to lecture us on this matter. All I am doing is taking the necessary pre They have done it previously during the cautions and giving an undertaking that there period of office of this Government. When will be no proclamation of this amendment we have allowed a Bill to be introduced, unless there is a change in the basis of stating at the introductory stage that we insurance. If that change occurs the House would look at it, and have then decided to could be in recess, and the State could lose oppose it at the second-reading stage to the considerable revenue because of the change extent of dividing the House, some hon. over. All I am asking is that we be given members opposite and some Ministers have authority to bring about this change if the come up with the corny criticism, "You voted circumstances arise. for it at the introductory stage". I commend the Bill to the House. Whatever the Opposition does, the Govern ment finds some fault with it if it does not Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (4 p.m.): Like suit its convenience. We will be opposing the the Minister, I do not wish to delay the Bill at the second-reading and committee House unnecessarily by reiterating all the stages. We will select the clauses to which we objections raised by us at the introductory are opposed concerning the impositions I stage before we had seen the Bill. However, mentioned, and we will indicate our opposi we pointed out then that although there were tion to them in Committee. I will deal with a number of matters relating to share trans them at the appropriate time. actions, brokerage and so on, to which we As to the matters dealt with by the did not think we would be opposed, because Minister in his second-reading speech, I think of the overriding importance of other matters he approached the situation on this occasion of a tax-collecting nature included in the Bill with possibly a deal more reserve than in his -the stamp duty on the transfer of motor closing remarks at the introductory stage. vehicles and the most undesirable introduc Nevertheless, we have objections to the new tion of stamp duty on workers' compensation tax on the registration of motor vehicles and premiums-we would not be prepared to be on the transfer of registration of other associated with it at any stage. vehicles. 2086 Stamp Acts and Another [ASSEMBLY) Act Amendment Bill Taking a Holden standard sedan as the The introduction of this taxation, on top basic item for consideration, the retail list of the other imposition, certainly will not price is $2,167.20. Prior to registration it has be helpful to the motor trade. Distributors in a list price in the trade of $1,795 and there is the trade-I do not mean manufacturers like a Commonwealth sales tax imposition of General Motors-Holden's-are sailing close $372.20. In imposing this tax at 1 per cent. to the wind under present conditions with on the retail list price, the Minister will trade-ins, etc., and have not a great deal impose a tax on a tax; he will impose the of scope to absorb this new tax. stamp duty on the sales tax. I know it is quite true to say that it would be difficult to As further evidence of what can happen do otherwise; if the Minister did not impose when Governments become too severe in it on the actual retail list price at the point the imposition of taxation I refer to Mr. of registration of a new vehicle he wDuld be Colin Clark, a prominent economist both allowing that tax element to escape on the in Australia and overseas-he was employed new vehicle, but it would be picked up in by this Government for some years-who patches down the line on the vehicle when it selected a level above which it would become was second hand. dangerous for Governments to impose taxa tion. He even went back to the Roman I mention that to indicate that it is not a Empire to prove his point. particularly suitable device for imposing duty. The very fact that the Minister is imposing a We have seen the effects of the intro stamp duty on a figure that already includes duction of increased freight charges. Road $372.20 sales tax in a total price of $2,167.20 hauliers and other people in the West have shows that he is imposing not only the stamp pointed out the repercussions that could duty on the actual list price, but that he is follow, and the Premier has indicated that also giving himself a duty on a tax that the the Government, although it can do nothing Commonwealth Government imposes. We are about it, is watching the position and may getting pretty tough on the motoring com have to consider readjusting the rates because munity when we start to tax motorists on the repercussions could counterbalance the money they have already paid by way of tax increased revenue received from the new to another authority. That could go on rates. endlessly. The Government would be wise to look Mr. Lee: All you would have to do is lower where it is going in this matter. At the the amount and put the rate up; you would introductory stage I mentioned the amount get the same result. It is as long as it is of money paid by motorists to both the broad. Federal Government and the State Govern ment. In addition, increased registration Mr. HANLON: I do not follow the hon. fees will be imposed next year. member's interjection; I cannot follow what In "The Courier-Mail" today there is an he means. article headed, "Government Aid sought on We object to the fact that the tax is Economy" which reads- assessed on a tax already payable. The 'The Associated Chambers of Manu motorist is in the position of being called factures president (Mr. Frank R. Curtis) upon to pay $372 to the Federal Govern said the Federal Government should make ment in sales tax for the privilege of buying the provision of a stimulus to consumer a new car, and he also has to pay stamp duty spending one of its first tasks after the not only on the value of the car as listed election. by the distributor but also on the tax paid to " 'There is a remarkable consensus the Commonwealth Government. among economic analysts that the economy The Minister said that this imposition would is in growing need of stimulus,' he said. not necessarily add to the very difficult period " 'Almost every dimension of national through which the motoring trade is passing economic performance reflects a lack-lustre in Queensland and in other parts of Aus quality.'" tralia. I should say that the Minister was somewhat unfair recently when he replied We all realise that conditions are not as to some remarks made by Mr. R. S. Parkes, they were during the credit squeeze in the secretary of the Queensland Chamber of 1960-61, but there is a certain amount Automotive Industries. The Minister tried of lethargy in the economy. The response to get around the assertion by Mr. Parkes of the economy to the injection of more that on the latest figures available there had money following the basic-wage increases been a slump in vehicle sales in Queensland. granted by the Industrial Commission early He said that Mr. Parkes was on unsafe this year, at a time convenient to the ground in suggesting that this arose from the Government of this State, and by the Com Government's new tax because, as he quite monwealth court, has not been very marked. rightly pointed out, the Government's new Indeed, the world economy is in a rather stamp duty on registration had not come into uncertain state. We have only to look at effect during that period. I should say that the suggestions offered by some of General this in no way downgraded Mr. Parkes's sub de Gaulle's advisers on gold reserves and mission on the effect of this additional impost the efforts of some countries to find a suitable on the buoyancy of the motor trade. paper alternative to gold, which they have Stamp Acts and Another [30 NovEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 2087 not been able to do. All sorts of dire con tax on seat belts for the very reason that I sequences have been suggested for the con suggest stamp duty should not apply to dition of the free world economies in the optional extras that contribute to safety. It near future. I do not say that I fully is rather unfortunate if something being subscribe to that thought. But all of these done by the State Government is justified by things cannot be disregarded and, in imposing something done unwisely by the Federal this additional tax on motor vehicle regis Government. We oppose the imposition of trations and worker's compensation policies, this stamp duty, and an examination of the the Government is not having sufficient Bill and the way in which the Treasurer regard to the repercussions that could proposes to carry out its provisions con follow. firm our opposition. During the credit squeeze in 1960-61 The Treasurer indicated that he has an Queensland was shown to be a State that amendment to move at the Committee stage. suffered severely from a general fall in the I suggest that we cast our minds back to demand for motor vehicles. Although other the events of last night, including the remarks States may have larger labour forces engaged of the Premier and other Government in the motor-car industry, the number of members about the raising of new principles people in Queensland engaged in the dis not covered by the order of leave. The tribution and sale of motor vehicles is suffi Opposition could make similar propaganda cient for the State to suffer quite substantially out of the situation that arises under this from any depressed conditions in the auto Bill. The Treasurer concedes that in the motive industry. The Treasurer could well last couple of weeks something outside the give consideration to that aspect of the scope of the Bill has happened-it was matter. announced in the P'ress only this morning which requires him to move an amendment I also want to say that what the Bill pro concerning the assessment of stamp duty on vides is to be carried out in a very clumsy insurance premiums. way. I shall have more to say about this at the Committee stage. The proposal mitigates The Opposition is not irresponsible; it against road safety. I was rather surprised does not intend saying to the Treasurer, "We to find that stamp duty is to be levied not are going to kick up a fuss about this mat nnly on the retail list price of vehicles but ter." Looking at the amendment quickly also on optional extras, including such safety as it stands, I do not think it is objection features as disc brakes and power steering. able. The Opposition does not want to take If the Government is indeed anxious to up a dog-in-the-manger attitude and adopt increase road safety as a means of dealing the Government's own argument on pro with a problem that currently concerns every cedure; but, in view of the Premier's remarks one, it is surely not giving a good lead by last night when he objected to the late sub imposing stamp duty not only on the basic mission of an amendment by a Government vehicle but on extras that may be regarded member and the argument that he put for as aids to safer driving. ward as to its being outside the order of leave, I think we could be excused for asking Mr. Lee: They should be there in the first the Treasurer to defer the Committee ·stage place for safe driving. of the Bill to allow us to consider the pro posed amendment in detail. As the hon. Mr. HANLON: Does the hon. member gentleman pointed out, it is a far-reaching think they should be compulsory? amendment and is of great importance to Mr. Lee: Yes. the State and its revenues. If it is not inserted, obviously there will be a great deal Mr. HANLON: That is another matter. of confusion. It may be impracticable for Does the hon. member think they contribute the State to levy duties, and some anomalous to safety? situations could arise if it attempts to do so. Mr. Lee: Yes. I shall defer any further comments till the Committee stage. Mr. HANLON: If he thinks that, he acknowledges the point I am making. If Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer this duty is to be imposed, it should stop Treasurer) (4.22 p.m.), in reply: I appreci short of optional extras. I do not include ate the views expressed by the hon. member in that term extra bits of chromium and for Baroona, who has acted as spokesman gadgets that can be purchased merely as for the Opposition in this debate. The prin ornaments. I refer to extras that have a cipal issues that he raised were raised by definite safety value. members of the Opposition at the introduc tory stage-they were entitled to do so Mr. Smith: Sales tax is levied on those and I replied to them in my second-reading things. speech. Quite candidly, I cannot see any Mr. HANLON: That does not matter. It new ones. should not be, and it is regrettable that it is. The Opposition contends that the Bill At one stage I think sales tax was levied on imposes an additional tax on the motor seat belts. Although I am subject to cor indu·stry. As I tried to point out a short rection on this, I think that the Federal while ago, I believe that its effect is spread, Government in its wisdom removed sales that it does not apply to only one section of 2088 Stamp Acts and Another [ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill the community. Therefore, my view differs exception of Tasmania. I do not want to from that expressed by hon. members get down to any political basis, but it was opposite. introduced first in New South Wales by a The hon. member for Baroona referred Labour Government, and New South Wales also to remarks that I made about a state has been followed by the other States. The ment that appeared in the Press and which principle laid down in this Bill is exactly was attributed to the secretary of the the same as applies in other States. Queensland Chamber of Automobile Indus It might be argued that because this is tries. I took the opportunity offered by done somewhere else that does not prove Appropriation Bill No. 2 to reply to that that it is right and is no reason why it statement. I put certain figures before hon. should be done here. However, I have members and indicated that I believed an examined it and I cannot see any other unfair attack had been made on the legis basis for it. lation and that the secretary's contention, Motion (Mr. Chalk) agreed to. which he supported with certain figures, that the economy of the State was in a bad way MoTION TO GO INTO COMMITTEE was not in keeping with the general trend of affairs. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer I recollect also having referred to the Treasurer): I move, Mr. Speaker- number of days in a particular month. "That you do now leave the chair and Anticipating that the hon. member for the House resolve itself into a Committee Baroona may again raise that issue, I had of the Whole to consider the Bill in taken out this morning, so that completely detail." up-to-date information would be available. Mr. HANLON (I3aroona) (4.28 p.m.): As the latest figures showing the number of new I indicated at the second-reading stage that cars, trucks, and so on, registered by the I thought the Treasurer should defer the Main Roads Department for the first 19 Committee stage to give the Opposition a working days of this month. You will chance to consider his proposed new amend recall, Mr. Speaker, that hon. members were ment, I shall divide the House on the told that there was a big falling-off in regis question. trations in the month of October. I point out to the House that for the 19 working Question-That the motion (Mr. Chalk) days of November-there are still three be agreed to-put; and the House divided- working days to go-the registrations are AYES, 42 4,830, compared with 3,763 for the whole Armstrong Lonergan month of October. In my opinion, those Bjelke-Petersen Low Cam m Muller figures indicate that what I said in the earlier Camp bell Murray debate was perfectly correct. Carey Newbery Chalk Nicklin Registrations were down a little last month, Chinchen Pilbearn when there was the lapse of a day. This Cory Pizzey Delamothe Porter month, with three working days still to go, De war Rae we are some 1,100 motor vehicle registra Fletcher Ramsden Herbert Richter tions up on the whole of last month. I Hewitt, N. T. E. Row think that is a fair answer to the criticism Hewitt, W. D. Smith made by the secretary of the Queensland Hinze Sullivan Hodges Tooth Chamber of Automobile Industries. Hooper Wharton Hough ton Mr. Hanlon: There may have been a bit Jones, V. E. of early buying because of the coming tax. Kaus Tellers: Knox Lee McKechnie Mr. CHALK: I realise that. I criticise Lickiss Miller the statement only because I believe undue advantage was taken of the circumstances NOES, 19 Bennett Jordan at the time and that the secretary, desiring Bromley Melloy some basis on which to criticise this pro Davies Newton posed legislation, selected something that Dean O'Donnell Donald Thackeray had nothing to do with the timing of the Duggan Tucker legislation. Graham Hanlon Tellers: Mr. Hanlon: We will see what happens Hanson next year. Harris Inch Houston Jones, R. Mr. CHALK: I will be interested to see what happens next year. PAIRS Hughes Wallis-Smith The only other thing that the hon. mem Ev.·an Sherrington ber for Baroona complained about was that Wood. E. G. W. Wood, P. the 1 per cent. stamp duty will apply on Resolved in the affirmative. the retail price. That is so in every case where this tax is applied. For the informa COMMITTEE tion of the House, although this type of tax is new in Queensland, it applies in every (Mr. Campbell, Aspley, in the chair) other State in the Commonwealth with the Clause 1, as read, agreed to. Stamp Acts and Another [30 NOVEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 2089 Clause 2-Commencement- NOES, 19 Ben nett Jordan Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer Bromley Melloy Treasurer) (4.36 p.m.): I move the fo.Jiowing Davies Newton Dean O'Donnell amendment:- Donald Thackeray Duggan Tucker "On page 2, after line 16, inse·rt the Han!on following subsection:- Hanson Tellers: Houston '(3) Subparagraphs (ii), (iii), (iv), (v), Inch Graham (vi) and (vii) of paragraph (e) of section Jones, R. Harris fourteen of this Act shall come into operation on a date to be fixed by the PAIRS Governor in Council by Proclamation Hughes Wallis-Smith published in the Gazette.'" Ewan Sherrington Wood. E. G. W. Wood, P. Amendment agreed to. Resolved in the affirmative. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer Treasurer) (4.38 p.m.): I move the following Claus·e 11, as read, agreed to. amendment:- Clause 12-New s. 57A inserted; (57A) "On page 2, Jine 18, omit the word, Motor vehicles- numeral and brackets- 'and (2)' Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (4.46 p.m.): This and insert in lieu thereof the word, is the clause that introduces the new section numerals and brackets- 57 A, which provides for the payment of '(2) and (3)'." duty on an application for registration, or Amendment agreed to. transfer of registration, of a motor vehicle, and accordingly I indicate our opposition to Clause 2, as amended, agreed to. it. Clauses 3 to 9, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Question-That Clause 12, as read, stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee Clause 10-New s. 47B inserted; (47B) divided- Workers' Compensation Insurance- AYES, 40 Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (4.40 p.m.): This Arm strong McKechnie clause introduces the principle of assessing Bjelke-Petersen Miller workers' compensation premiums. The Camm Muller Carey Murray Opposition intends to oppose its insertion. Chalk Newbery Chinchen Nicklin I apologise to the Commttee. I must be Cory Pilbeam Delamothe Porter getting deaf in my old age. I did not hear Dewar Rae the call at the second,reading stage; con Fletcher Ramsden sequently we did not divide the Hous·e at Herbert Richter Hewitt, N. T. E. Row that stage. H was for that reason that we Hodge• Smith divided the House on the question of Mr. Hooper Sullivan Hough ton Tooth Speaker's leaving the chair. I must kee·p my Jones, V. E. Wharton ears open in future. Kaus Knox We have already indicated why we oppose Lee Tellers: this clause. Lickiss Lonergan Hewitt, W. D. Question-That clause 10, as read, stand Low Hinze part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided- NOES, 19 AYES, 41 Bennett Jordan Davies Armstrong Lonergan Me!loy Low Dean Newton Bjelke-Petersen Donald Cam m McKechnie O'Donnell Miller Duggan Thackeray Carey Graham Tucker Chalk Muller Hanlon Chinchen Murray Newbery Harris Cory Houston Tellers: Delamothe Nicklm Pizzey Inch Bromley Dewar Jones, R. Fletcher Porter Hanson Herbert Rae Hewitt, N. T. E. Ramsden Hewitt, W. D. Richter PAIRS Hinze Row Hodges Smith Hughes Wal1is-S1nith Hooper Sullivan Ewan Sherrington Hough ton Tooth Wood. E. G. W. Wood, P. Jones, V. E. Kaus Tellers: Resolved in the affirmative. Knox Lee Pilbeam Lickiss Wharton Clause 13, as read, agreed to. 2090 Stamp Acts and Another [ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill Clause 14-Amendments of First (a) upon every policy and every Schedule- renewal of a policy of insurance for a term of one year or less- Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer $ Treasurer) (4.57 p.m.): I indicated at the For each motor vehicle second-reading stage the reasons for an in respect of which the amendment to this clause. I accordingly move policy is issued 0.45 the following amendment:- (b) upon every policy and every "On pages 13 and 14, lines 42 to 55 renewal of a policy of insurance for a and 1 to 8, omit the paragraphs- term of more than one year- '(ii) omitting provision (6) and insert $ ing in its stead the following pro In respect of each year vision:- and also of any fractional part of a year in such term "(6) In respect of all other policies for each motor vehicle in (a) upon every policy and every respect of which the policy renewal of a policy of insurance for is issued 0.45"; a term of one year or less- $ (iv) inserting after provision (7) the For every $100 or frac following provision:- tional part of $100 of the "(8) In respect of all other policies total amount insured 0.02t (a) upon every policy and every (b) upon every policy and every renewal of a policy of insurance for a renewal of a policy of insurance for term of one year or less- a term of more than one year- $ $ For every $100 or frac In respect of each year tional part of $100 of the and also of any fractional total amount insured 0.02t part of a year in such (b) upon every policy and every term, for every $100 or renewal of a policy of insurance for fractional part of $100 of a term of more than one year- the total amount insured 0.02t"; $ (iii) in paragraph (g) of the proviso In respect of each year and also of any fractional (a) omitting the words "or con part of a year in such term, tinuance"; for every $100 or fractional (b) in subparagraph (i) omitting the part of $100 of the total letter and brackets "(e)" and inserting in amount insured 0.02t"; their stead the letter and brackets "(d)"; (v) in paragraph (d) of the proviso (c) in subparagraph (i) omitting the omitting the numeral and brackets "(6)" words ", renewed or continued" and and inserting in their stead the numeral inserting in their stead the words "or and brackets "(8)"; renewed"; (vi) in paragraph (g) of the proviso- (d) in subparagraph (ii) omitting the (a) omitting the word, numeral and words ", renewal or continuance" and brackets "or (6)" and inserting in their inserting in their stead the words "or stead the word, numeral and brackets renewal";' "or (8)"; and insert in lieu thereof the following (b) omitting the words "or con paragraphs:- tinuance"; '(ii) in provision (4) omitting the words "motor vehicle" and inserting in their (c) in subparagraph (i) omitting the stead the words "motor cycle or caravan letter and brackets "(e)" and inserting in trailer or trailer" and omitting the their stead the letter and brackets "(d)"; numeral and brackets "(6)" and inserting (d) in subparagraph (i) omitting the in their stead the numeral and brackets words ", renewed or continued" and "(8)"; inserting in their stead the words "or (iii) omitting provlS!on (6) and renewed"; inserting in its stead the following pro {e) in subparagraph (ii) omitting the vision:- words ", renewal or continuance" and "(6) In respect of every policy of inserting in their stead the words "or insurance relating to any motor vehicle renewal"; (other than a motor cycle) or (vii) in paragraph (h) of the proviso indemnifying the insured against legal omitting the word, numeral and brackets liability for accidental bodily injury "or (6)" and inserting in their stead (fatal or non-fatal) to any person or for the word, numeral and brackets "or damage caused by, through or in con (8)";'." nection with a motor vehicle (other than a motor cycle)- Amendment agreed to. Land Tax Acts [30 NOVEMBER] Amendment Bill 2091 Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (4.59 p.m.): I am indebted to the hon. member for Again without delaying the Committee, I Mt. Coot-tha, who suggested that the present point out on this clause that there are other area limitation of 48 perches was too small. aspects included in this one to which we do Instead of an area test, his thoughts were not take objection. However, to protect our directed towards a te-st of land use. The selves from Government snipers it is necessary hon. member for Kedron had some slightly for us to divide the Committee on this clause different views on the matter. I think it is to indicate our opposition only to the imposi right to say that the hon. member for tion of the duty. We regret the fact that the Toowoomba West touched on this subject Treasurer did not accept our suggestion at and said that he felt the area test should be the introductory stage that he did not include retained but the maximum area should be exemption from the tax for disabled people. lifted from 48 perches to one acre. Question-That clause 14, as amended, In 1962 the principle was introduced stand part of the Bill-put; and the Com whereby no land tax would be payable on a mittee divided- single residential block not exceeding 40 AYES, 39 perches in area and used by the owner for his own residential use, provided, of course, Armstrong Lonergan Bjelke-Petersen Low that he owned no other land. This area Cam m McKechnie limitation was later increased to less than Carey Miller Chalk Murray 48 perches, and that is where it stands at Cory Newbery present. Delamothe Nick! in Dewar Pi! beam I think I should explain to the House that Fletcher Porter the present statutory exemption on residential Herbert Rae Hewitt, N. T. E. Ramsden land is $6,000. In addition, with a maxi Hewitt, W. D. Richter mum tax of $4 being payable before any tax Hinze Row Hedges Smith is levied, the practical effect is that the Hooper Tooth exemption is in fact $7,000. Houghton Wharton Jones, V. E. I have considered the matter raised by the Kaus hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha. Let me say Knox Tellers: Lee Chinchen immediately that there would be very few Liekiss Sullivan cases in Queensland of a person owning only a residential block of land on which he NOES, 19 resides where the valuation exceeds $7,000 Bromley Jones, R. and where the area is 48 perches or more. Davies Jordan Dean Newton In fact, my officers tell me that they doubt Donald O'Donnell whether there would be 50 such cases in Duggan Thackeray Grab am Tucker the State. The exemption of $7,000 excludes Hanlon most residences and, where it does not, the Hanson Harris Tellers: 48-perch limitation does. However, I am Houston Bennett advised that the application of a use test Inch Melloy alone could produce some results which I am PAIRS sure the Legislature would not countenance. Hughes Wallis-Smith I am told there are cases of quite substan Ewan Sherrington Wood. E. G. W. tial areas used for residential purposes only, Wood, P. and these lands attract a very l;ligh value. Resolved in the affirmative. This is the only land owned by such persons. Clause 15, as read, agreed to. I do not know why the owners should hold and use such land for residential purposes; Bill reported, with amendments. to me it seems most uneconomic. However, that is their privilege and I do not suggest for one moment that the Government should LAND TAX ACTS AMENDMENT BILL endeavour to do anything about it. At the SECOND READING same time, I am not prepared at this junc ture to think that, in these cases, there should Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer be an exemption from land tax. The land is Treasurer) (5.8 p.m.): I move- extremely valuable and could be sold "That the Bill be now read a second tomorrow at high prices and put to other time." uses. I believe that it would be fair to say that the Again, there are parcels of land which Bill was well received by the Committee at would qualify for exemption under the hon. the introductory stage. I tried to explain member's proposal, but which are eminently fully its principles and I believe that, in suitable at present for subdivision. I should general, they were accepted by hon. not like to see a provision in law which members. Therefore I do not propose to played into the hands of the land specu repeat at this stage what I said on the intro lators and gave them some undue advantage. duction of the Bill. However, at the pre vious stage several hon. members raised the In other words, the difficulty I see with matter of land tax on residential blocks, and the hen. member's suggestion is that of I undertook to examine this matter. applying some objective test to see if the 2092 Land Tax Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill residential use is a bona-fide or justified use various matters that have been raised. I in the circumstances. Unless someone can do not think he has understood completely produce some basis on which this test could the points I made. Although I have not be applied-and I confess that I would not with me a copy of my speech at the intro care to have to apply the test administratively ductory stage, I think that, whilst I stressed -the proposal advanced by the hon. member the importance of the consideration of could, I know, be the subject of abuse which the use of the land, I did not disregard the I know the hon. member would not desire. area. Town planning and the zoning of land are with us to stay, and the value I feel that what might be worrying the attaching to land comes from the optimum hon. member and others is that the statutory use to which it can be put, which optimum exemption might not keep pace with increases use is denoted by zoning under the Town in land values. All I can do is draw the Plan. attention of the House to the record of this Government in its term of office. There I am very pleased indeed to hear that have been constant reviews of the statutory the Treasurer will look at this matter, exemption and its progressive increase as land because in any case this will be necessary values also increase. I feel that at this if certain recommendations of the report juncture we could well leave the matter in of the committee headed by Mr. Justice the Government's hands. I am prepared to Hardie which inquired into land valuation assure the hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha in Queensland are implemented. A com that I will have another look at this issue pletely fresh look at the whole matter of probably early in the New Year. It is my land tax in certain circumtsances will then belief that another Bill will be brought down be necessary. I wish to put the record before the end of this session next March, or straight by repeating that whilst I did say early in the next session. I am not prepared that more emphasis should be placed on at this moment to do other than indicate my the use of land, I did not at any stage dis keenness to discuss this matter further with count consideration of its area. him. There are other matters that I also feel The hon. member for Baroona raised a could be looked at when the whole question valid point on whether it was worth while of land tax is being examined. For example, re-thinking the value of $4 for a minimum I can give one pertinent case that comes to assessment. I propose to examine this mind. A person who owns a block of land matter in some detail. I will do so later on which he lives, and which is valued at this financial year with a view to seeing if $7,000, may also have another small block any further amendments can be justified in valued at $200 tucked away at a seaside relation to the Budget for 1967-68. I will resort. Because he has more than one then give very careful consideration to all block of land he loses his exemption. the views advanced. The values of both blocks are pooled and he pays the land tax on the aggregate value I sincerely thank hon. members for the over and above the normal reserve for points raised in the earlier discussion. So urban land. I believe this to be victimisation far as I can see, no-one has any serious of a person who has more than one block objection to what is in the Bill apart from of land. If a person who owns one block those things that have been brought forward, of land under 48 perches is exempt from and I am prepared to look at them at a the payment of land tax, let us be fair and later date. exempt at least one residential block for those who have more than one. Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (5.15 p.m.): I thank the Treasurer for his comments on This is another matter that can be looked the various remarks made at the introduc at only in terms of what the situation will tory stage by Opposition members and, for be after the making of any necessary that matter, other hon. members also. There amendments to the Valuation of Land Act is little point in extending the debate by as the result of the implementation of the making further comments. We appreciate recommendations contained in the report of the Treasurer's indication that he proposes the Hardie committee. to look at some of these matters later in the financial year. I again stress that I do not think the Treasurer has really understood the main The Bill is straightforward, and the point of the argument that I put forward, Opposition has indicated its approval of it. which was that the use of land is regulated It corrects possible anomalies that could by town-p.Janning legislation in this State arise, and it has our support. and that the tendency wiLl be fur such planning to increase. I did say that more Mr. UCKISS (Mt. Coot-tha) (5.16 p.m.): emphasis should be put on land use, but at I am pleased to receive the Treasurer's no stage did I say it should be unrelated to assurance that he is prepared to look at the land area. Queensland Marine Acts (30 NOVFMBER] Amendment Bill 2093 I thank the Treasurer for his comments, Torres Strait and the coastal waters would and I shaM be very pleased to see the matter engage the services of a Torres Strait and revived in the future. c-oastal pilot-and most of them do-the Motion (Mr. Chalk) agreed to. G-overnment does not contemplate making these pilotage services compuls-ory. Of course, pilotage in a harbour is a compulsory COMMITTEE service unless the master of the vessel has (Mr. Campbell, Aspley, in the chair) pilotage exemption for that particular port. Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, as read, The hon. member for Port Curtis also .agreed to. mentioned the matter of the equipment and survey of departmental craft. I point out Bill reported, without amendment. that the present Government brought in a requirement that all departmental vessels QUEBNSL~ND MAR the department who is competent to recom coast. I know this full well. He said that mend that he be appointed to this position the Government would never insist upon of honorary inspector. In country places we ships using this service. However, any often see people appointed to these honorary master without a very good knowledge of positions as a result of a favour that some coastal waters between the reef and the main one wants to bestow upon them and, on land, particularly the waters in the North, occasions, I have seen the greatest nark in would be very foolish if he did not employ the community appointed to such a position. this pilot service. Broken Hill Pty. Co. Ltd. This is very much to be regretted, because iron ships that come from Western Australia it damages considerably the relations that around Cape York Peninsula-"Iron should exist between the department and the Dampier", and ships of that nature-use the public. waters inside the reef. On every single occasion they use the Torres Strait and I also suggest that these honorary Coastal Pilotage Service. They will not do inspectors should be obtained from among without it. people within the department who, in the main, have a good local knowledge of what Only a few days ago an item appeared in pertains to the position. An interviewing the Press which was of great interest because officer should recommend the appointment of the provisions of this Bill. It concerned to the position of honorary inspector some the building of a new ship that will be plying body who has lived in the area or around in these waters, conveying bauxite from the port for some time and who would Weipa to Port Curtis, which is Gladstone's have some knowledge of the functions port. I hope that this ship will be built here entrusted to him. and that its master will be an Australian, captaining an Australian crew. Very good Not only should the honorary inspector public relations would be created if the com have the necessary ability to carry out his pany engaged in these operations ensured responsibilities, but he should also have that Australians were in no way prejudiced. ability to deal with the public. He should I hope that full advantage will not be taken not be a person with a discourteous manner of this amendment, as it could affect the who could injure the image of the public master of this ship. servant. Finally, I should like the Treasurer to I wish to deal with the proposed amend explain the principle in the amendment ment to the Act that covers the issue of cer concerning officers being able to read and tificates of competency. At present before a person can obtain a certificate of competency write English. I should like to know just he must have Australian citizenship under how their abilities will be assessed. I should the Nationality and Citizenship Act. The like to know what the test will be, and point I want to make is that as yet no satis whether it will be similar to the dictation factory explanation has been given by the test of years ago that applied to migrants Treasurer for the Government's change of and people seeking naturalisation in Australia. face in this matter. In 1958, when the original Act was introduced, it was made Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer very clear by the Opposition that the claims Treasurer) (5.36 p.m.), in reply: The of certain people for certificates of com comments of the hon. member for Baroona petency would be prejudiced, and that they indicated that generally the Opposition accepts should be allowed to operate along the coast the measure. despite the fact that they were not naturalised Australians. At that time the Treasurer of The hon. member for Port Curtis raised the day said it was common practice for the several issues that were dealt with fairly British Board of Trade to require this fully by me in my introductory speech. nationality qualification to be met. Now He inquired first about the position of there has been an about-face. It has not been honorary inspectors. If he refers to what satisfactorily explained why, if in 1958 the I said at the introductory stage he will see Government required an applicant to be a I indicated that it was contemplated that naturalised citizen under the Nationality and appointment of honorary inspectors would Citizenship Act, in 1966 it is sufficient that rest with the Minister, on the recommendation a person has been resident in this country for of the Marine Board; honorary inspectors 12 months. will be appointed on the Marine Board's recommendation. I think the hon. member At the introductory stage the Treasurer knows what the Marine Board is, and the spoke about an American wanting to engage basis of its establishment. It comprises the in the tourist industry. At that time I made Port Master and four outside persons, some comments about people from other including a representative of the trade unions, countries who had been considerably dis so I do not think the hon. member has advantaged by the legislation for many years. anything to fear. It is not controlled by Today the Treasurer has said that the Torres the department, and over many years it has Strait and Coastal Pilotage Service was not been regarded as serving a very useful a service that had to be used compulsorily purpose. I am certain it can be regarded by vessels operating along the Queensland as being fair in its deliberations. Queensland Marine Acts, &c., Bill [1 DECEMBER] Questions 2095 Mr. Hanson: As long as it takes notice of local knowledge in these matters. Mr. CHALK: I am not querying the calibre of the board or the basis on which it will make its determinations. In the short time I have been Treasurer I have met these gentlemen on three occasions. From my experience of them I would sum them up as men who are dedicated to the activity with which they are associated. The hon. member need have very little fear of them. The hon. member also made some comments about examinations for masters, mates and engineers. In dealing with this matter at the introductory stage I pointed out that the Queensland law was at variance-we know it-with the law that exists in other parts of the Commonwealth. From Queensland's point of view, as the law stands at the moment we have run into some difficulties. I instanced a case, but because it concerned an American citizen I did not want to emphasise it. From my own brief experience. I believe that the Commonwealth law is satisfactory and my advisers-we get the views of harbour board authorities and the various departments that I administer-felt that it was reasonable to bring the position here back to the Commonwealth law. That is why I did it. The only motive was to achieve uniformity. I believe that that broad principle will be accepted by all concerned. Mr. Hanson: The previous Treasurer did not accept it in 1958. Mr. CHALK: I do not have to answer for what my predecessor did in 1958. I have only to answer for my own actions. The reasons given in 1958 are recorded in "Hansard". The problems associated with the situation now outweigh any argument used previously. I do not think any master of a vessel who is not fully acquainted with reef waters would take the risk of not using the services of a Torres Strait pilot in those waters. When it comes to entering a harbour, certain conditions and rules have to be obeyed. I believe that the Bill clarifies a few matters associated with this Act. For that reason I felt it advisable to bring the Bill down during this session. Motion (Mr. Chalk) agreed to. COMMITTEE (Mr. Campbell, Aspley, in the chair) Clauses 1 to 5, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Bill reported, without amendment. The House adjourned at 5.45 p.m.