Deon Carolus

Abstract

Deon Carolus was born in 1966 in Cape Town. Whilst at high school in the 1980s he became involved in student politics, was on his school’s SRC and as such was exposed to the UDF and later to the ANC. The interview explores his experiences as a political activist from a young age, who and what influenced him and the harassment by police.

Lacking finances to study he started work in the late 1980s in a factory that was organised by Fawu. He soon became a shop steward but was fired after a strike. He then worked as a volunteer for the ANC social services in Elsies River. Later he was employed by government in the social welfare sector, joined Nehawu in the late 1990s and was elected a shop steward. Later he was employed by Nehawu as the regional organiser for the Southern Cape and subsequently the regional secretary.

After he resigned from Nehawu he worked for the SABS and then in 2009 took up a temporary post as a local organiser in Numsa’s Western Cape region. In 2010 he was employed in a permanent position in Numsa’s Northern Cape region based in Kimberley.

He gives a good picture of what a local organiser’s in Numsa actually entails: recruiting and building the union, educating and providing information to shop stewards and members, representing members in disciplinary cases at bargaining council level and how Numsa relates to the alliance structures.

He also gives personal insight into how his parents influenced his thinking and how trade unions and being a political person led to his divorce from his wife.

As a coloured person he touches on the issue of race – he believes that all different groupings must respect each other and listen to each other. Facilitator: This is an interview with Deon Carolus we are in Kimberley, the date is 10 October 2011, interview is done by Brown Maaba. Thanks very much for your time Deon, kindly give me a background of when you were born, where you were born and how you ended up in the world unions?

Respondent: Okay, thanks Brown, I was born in Cape Town, I was born in the 1960s, I was born in 1966 I grew up in Cape Town, I was schooling in Cape Town. During my schooling time as a student in high school I then became involved in, let’s call it student politics. I became involved in the youth formations at that point in time. I was also serving on the structure of AFSEC, that was a youth formation in Elsies River where I grew up and I became the chairperson of AFSEC at that point in time, that was now in the era. Now after finishing school I then joined one company, also some of my friends or colleagues, after completing school we then had at one company, a big wholesale company distributing meat and so on. And in those years, I then joined FAWU and became a shop steward of FAWU, that was in 1987/88, joining FAWU, became a shop steward and then afterwards became a vice chairperson of the Shop Steward Council at that particular company.

Now from there, I then went and lost my job to a strike, and they wanted to select people to come back to the company and I defied the selection, so I never went back. I then went and did voluntary work for the ANC in Elsies River and surrounding areas and then joined a social services division in Elsies itself, dealing with community projects, new developments and so on and then joined NEHAWU at that point in time. In NEHAWU I became a shop steward at social services and later became a leader in NEHAWU itself as first the secretary of social .., because they broke us up, there was what was called, sectors, so I was part of the social welfare sector at that point in time and then I became then the Treasurer of that sector and afterwards I became the social welfare secretary in NEHAWU. And then there was a vacancy in NEHAWU in either 1997/8. I applied for the position and became the regional organiser in NEHAWU, I was deployed to Oudtshoorn area dealing with Oudtshoorn and the Southern Cape, the Klein Karoo, Groot Karoo and Southern Cape. I’ve been in Oudtshoorn I think from 2000, and then subsequently there were problems in one of our regions, they call it the Boland region, the main town in Boland is Worcester and they asked me if I can’t go there and try to attend to the challenges that were there. So I was then deployed to Worcester area.

In Worcester we addressed certain challenges and then there was a congress. In that congress they elected me as secretary of the region. Subsequently after I was elected, after a couple of months I then decided I wanted to pursue other avenues and then I went to .., I resigned from NEHAWU and joined South African Bureau of Standards. I was in the SMME department, dealing with finalisation of BEE processes, SMMEs and so on and then also provide them with funding where they can enjoy , where they can also use the funding to better their businesses and so on, and we also guided them on that. Then in 2008 there was a problem with funding because the bulk of the funding came from DTI and then they wanted us to move to other Departments in SABS, but then the whole department then decided that they should rather take retrenchment packages, with me included.

After that I joined NUMSA, I joined NUMSA because there was a fixed contract position at NUMSA where one of the colleagues of NUMSA went on leave. I started with NUMSA in Cape Town being a local organiser, in 2009 and then joined NUMSA – it was a three months fixed contract. After that they ..(unclear) they asked me in September to lead the team and afterwards there was a vacancy because someone had resigned and then I applied for the vacancy as an organiser. I was then appointed and was put on again until December 14 of that year. I was then appointed permanently. I then worked in NUMSA in Cape Town, in 2010 there was a position here in Kimberley. I then decided to, in 2010, I then decided to apply and I was then appointed. My interview was successful, I was appointed here in January I think the 17th. I then started here until now.

So my duties are, because I’m the local organiser here, this is Kimberley Local, we have different towns in Kimberley Local, the one town is Vryburg, the other town is Upington, then we have De Aar, then we have Kuruman, Postmasburg and so on. So this is my area of work.

Now remember in NUMSA, in this local we only have two industries, the motor industry and the engineering industry. There is a lot of challenges in Kimberley itself pertaining recruitment, pertaining the of shop stewards, including leadership, pertaining the understanding of .., because in both industries we have main agreements. One is the motor main agreement and the other one is the engineering main agreement. Now as you can remember Brown, last year in 2010 there was a strike pertaining negotiations in the motor industry. Now, it was resolved and the comrades have received their increases, but last year’s agreement was an agreement signed on the duration of a three year process that will end in 2013. This year, subsequently we had an engineering strike because one of our demands was to ban labour brokers as well. But then the strike was also, the process of strike stopped after two weeks of the strike. Members went back and now what is subsequently happening, is we must agree on the fundamentals of the agreement, try to inform shop stewards in a very simplistic way, because there’s also a language barrier here. Most of the comrades here in Kimberley they understand Afrikaans, but as you move along to Vryburg and Postmasburg, there’s a difference when it comes to it .., there’s also a challenge when it comes to language because there I would normally use English and then comrades will not understand. So sometimes I would take a person that can speak Setswana or whatever language they are speaking, just to explain to them so that they can understand.

The main challenges is that there is lack of education, lack of information, lack of understanding and that we hope we will finalise these processes by the end of December this year, just to better the understanding and educational level of most and the majority of our shop stewards and members.

Facilitator: what went wrong, what created this lack of information, lack of understanding and so on? Unions have been around I would say since the formation of FOSATU not to mention SACTU in the 1950s, the ICU earlier on?

Respondent: when it comes to this Brown, because you will get colleagues previously present, then when it comes to information there is this selfishness, they do not want to share the information with others. And in this region itself there was lots of challenges, locally and regionally, that’s my .., shop stewards and members couldn’t because there was no such, you know important programmes. This is my point of view and personally, that emphasised the importance of education, emphasise the importance of information sharing and information and documentation as well. There was no .., it was not a priority but you know, in I think, and I speak under correction, that’s why in 2010/11 they have deployed a colleague as an acting regional secretary from the Eastern Cape in Bloemfontein to transform that concept of not providing .., because as you know, one of our main priorities is service delivery to our members, and if we lack that, obviously we will not have a well informed, member or well informed shop steward. So that can also derail all the processes in the organisation. But with this person called Andile Zitho, ..(unclear) the priority is prescribed by national directors and national office, is now taking its course, slowly but surely and my view is that whatever priority directors there is from national office or regional office need to be implemented and in Kimberley local we have started with such processes because even in the strike, in engineering, after the strike you could see there’s a sense of capacity building, there’s a sense that people are getting information, slowly but surely because people are also gaining that confidence, particularly local leadership. They are getting the confidence to speak on a podium about NUMSA, to address people in connection with NUMSA, people never in the past attended COSATU Federation meetings. Now people are attending. Local leadership, worker leaders are also attending, they attend national formations. We are bringing those things back to workers because fundamentally this organisation, if you look at the preamble in the constitution, the principle is worker control. So we are bringing it back to workers so that workers can understand what is the importance of them being part of .., of a trade union or the federation.

Facilitator: and the shop stewards you also said they lack education?

Respondent: ja obviously, shop stewards are lacking. Now what .., let me not say I because then it becomes .., what the union and the organisation prescribe to is that, just a slogan that we have in the federation “each one, teach one”. So that is the principle that we worked on. We are having shop steward councils, every fortnight, in that fortnight we try to educate most of the shop stewards so that they .., because at the end of the day we want shop stewards to be in control of the workplace, to deal with the challenges at the workplaces an uninformed shop steward can’t do that, only an informed and trained shop steward can engage with management. Now, that is where we are lacking. We can only say now in Kimberley maybe 5- 10% of the whole of the shop stewards in Kimberly can engage, the others will still depend on the office. They will come to me and say ‘Deon you need to attend the meeting because we need to address certain things’, which is very simple or simplistic to me but is not simplistic to that particular individual. So he needs that guidance. So what I’m doing, if there is a DC or if there is engagement with management I take them along so that they can see practically how I am dealing with such issues and so on. Theoretically it’s a problem because I’m not undermining, it’s through a system that started 600 years ago, and this apartheid that has kept us from education. When we do things we rather do it simplistically so that those people and those comrades can understand and adopt it very quickly you know when you do it in a practical method as in a theoretical method because there .., the other day there was a comrade is dealing with ABET in Correctional Services. I asked her ‘comrade if we have funds available for ABET will you come and assist us because we have these challenges in this local and I will make a proposal to the region to see how we can address and how they can assist the shop stewards in Kimberley by maybe taking them to that’.

You must also understand that there are comrades who come here who can’t even sign their own names. So that is also a challenge that we need to address. Whilst we are looking at decent and decent and ban labour brokers, what are we doing within our own family when it comes to education? What processes can we put in place to assess them and to advance them because when we educate that particular member or shop steward it will also be a plus and a benefit to their own families, and if it’s a plus to his own family it can be a plus to that particular person in a community or a society he can contribute on a political and social levels.

Facilitator: but also the issue of labour brokers, how far has it affected NUMSA around Kimberley or ?

Respondent: In Kimberley there isn’t much . What we are saying is “let’s ban labour brokers” but now in recent documentation, particularly in the motor main agreement, there is a time frame for labour brokers, but also what also is important in the document, labour brokers can’t operate as they have operated before. Now they have to comply to certain requirements in the main agreement by deducting UIF, by contributing to the /provident fund, by deducting all the levies ..(unclear) itself, and also looking at the which is prescribed by the main agreement. So now this now comes down to now are trying to regulate the labour brokers so that they can also .., this is also in line with the protection of the employee under the labour brokers, so that they can also, at the end of the day enjoy the benefits that each and every ordinary employee or member of NUMSA are enjoying and it can also then, through that, because if you give them that benefit then it will go down to Chapter 3 of the Organisational Rights and Labour Relations Act. Now we have a choice, I can now join a union of my choice, and the subscription must be deducted by the labour broker and when there’s negotiations we can negotiate with the labour broker, pertaining the provisions in the main agreement.

Facilitator: will COSATU succeed to crush labour brokers?

Respondent: Let me be honest, I don’t think so but I think labour brokers will die a low death on their own because they will not have so much money because if they need to pay for all those other benefits, whatever they had in the past, now they must also take out of their own pockets because contributions when it comes to pension/provident fund so they need to contribute and that will now hamper the income of that capitalist .., as labour brokers, and as you know capitalists doesn’t want to take money out of their own pockets, as we are socialists, as we are as workers, we need to dig into our pockets everyday because we have to provide for our families and sometimes we don’t have that kind of finances and so on, or capital. So I think they will on their own decide to demolish that because if it is not of benefit to them, as employers of labour brokers you will get ripped off. Their income will be hampered because their ultimate goal and objective is to make a profit. That is the idea of the capitalist. And in the other instance, as you can see there is .., when it comes to politics, the position of COSATU, ban labour brokers, there’s a position of government, regulate labour brokers. So somewhere in NEDLAC they will come to a resolution, what is acceptable for both parties. And maybe they will say over a period of time, they will fade over a period of time. This is my view.

Facilitator: In general what drives the economy of Kimberley, in the past mining was a big thing here?

Respondent: It’s still because remember in Postmasburg, there’s another, I’m speaking under correction, there are two/three formations or mines, you must go to that area and you will see that the profit margin of the area and even when it comes, because now we will include .., remember I think five years - previously, you could get a house in Postmasburg for R50 000 – now you must check what happened after the mines, because there are mine houses, there are about three sites of new development when it comes to mine houses and accommodation and so on. What the other comrade had told me from Postmasburg, if you rent the rental is high now, if you want to rent a place or you want to rent a room, they’re sky high, it’s because of the mines. This is still .., percentage wise, 80% of the income and of providing jobs and security, is still through the mines. Here in Kimberley and in Postmasburg, we only have about 7 engineering companies and then the bulk of our industry will be in the motor, that is petrol stations and components and so on, and car dealers and so on, dealership, that is the bulk, but engineering has dropped and most of our engineering companies are manufacturing products for the mines, to supply the mines. There’s still a lot of mines and they are still seeking because in some areas they are still doing their investigations, the analysis and so on by maybe creating new mines and more mines. So that industry will not, in the Northern Cape even in Kimberley will not die at this point in time because now when it comes to, even with recruitment, we said our second phase is where we will approach the mining sites because there is also engineering companies with the mining sites, so that will be our second approach when it comes to recruitment.

Facilitator: but at this current moment, your members, have they grown or declined?

Respondent: Let me tell you and here I want to be honest, there was a membership of 700 or 800 then we moved, remember I’m only here 9 months now starting in January and its October, we moved to 2100 and we are still growing, because on a regular basis we are getting in new members of farms from various towns in the Northern Cape, let’s say Braamvlei (Brandvlei?), Victoriavis??(Victoria West?), Britstown, we were never there but we are getting because comrades hear from another comrade or there is an affiliate in a certain town and workers will approach them and say call Deon or call the office in Kimberley. So we’re on a regular basis and through the strike of this year, because there was a lot of media coverage locally for the strike of NUMSA, now through that also we have gained potential membership. But the challenge that we’re having, what if we move beyond 2000 plus then the capacity of the office will be a problem, we will need to look at the capacity of the office because as you know, Northern Cape is very scattered, so we need to look at deploying another person or whatsoever in another town because now the potential is also rife in Upington, Kuruman, Bosmansvlei etc. So maybe in the future we need a permanent person that side, to deal with the Upington area and so on, because we’re moving now towards Namaqualand, Springbok area, because we have also received applications from Pofadder, that is nearer to Springbok, so that means we are moving. And you know that from here to Springbok is about 900 kms single trip, so that is what we are facing.

Facilitator: then in terms of in service training, you mentioned the fact that you’re doing some labour project, course, is NUMSA taking care of those things in general, to ensure that you are capacitated .., from your pocket?

Respondent: NUMSA, maybe they signed an agreement with UNISA because last year, I did my practical and NUMSA paid for it. I wrote exams in February and now I’m dealing with Advanced Labour Law, again NUMSA has also paid for that. Now if NUMSA because we have the a National Education Department, they will identify programmes, courses, training and so on and then they will then have a programme for that and we will then be informed through the region who must attend a particular training as well. So in that regard, when it comes to the National Union, there is no problem when it comes to funding and in service training or provide you external training courses. NUMSA is, I must say this, NUMSA is very flexible on that, but training pertaining your functions and duties in this organisation itself, and to advance your knowledge when it comes to certain processes in the organisation and beyond the organisation. NUMSA is really coming to the party on that.

Facilitator: and the link between NUMSA and political structures, the ANC locally?

Respondent: there is a connection, the local office are working very closely with the South Party. There was processes, there was this Red Door lawns?? (Red October launch?), in Warrington, we deployed cadres to that launch. What we are trying to do nationally, we have a relationship, when it comes to the political schools, with the South African Communist Party and also what we emphasise in our meetings is that members need to take up membership with the South African Communist Party. The young workers need to be part of the young Communist League and also when it comes to the young ANC League, they must join up with them and even be part of the deliberations in SACP structures, ANC structures and so on, being part of the branches in our communities, that is what we urge our members, fruitful participation in such political formations. So there is, with us here locally we have a very good relationship with the SACP, with COSATU, we have also assisted the ANC with the local government elections this year. We deployed a team from Kimberley and they were instructed or let me not use instructed, reasonably required to visit towns in the Northern Cape for the mobilisation of the local government elections. Now this team, they have visited 18 towns in the Northern Cape and in all the towns that they have visited, before the elections, the ANC had to win an overwhelming majority in that town or in that municipality or in the wards. So that is our relationship here with the political formations.

Facilitator: the issue of race is it an issue in the union, in NUMSA?

Respondent: because we address, you must remember if you come to race I’m the only coloured person here in the office and in the region, the only one. The others are all Tswana, Xhosa’s and so on, we make jokes between ourselves, they call me Boesman but it’s the way we talk with each other and the way we understand and I don’t have a problem, if they have a problem with me I don’t, it doesn’t bother me, because for me I’m not looking at colour, I’m looking at human beings. So that is not an issue for me.

Facilitator: the affiliates under NUMSA here is it largely coloureds, largely Xhosa?

Respondent: We have, and you will not believe it, we have an Afrikaner here as a shop steward at Orange Toyota, and we are fine with him, we even like him to come to the meetings, whether he speaks Afrikaans or what because we want to portray Ubuntu, all of us in this organisation must believe in Ubuntu, must accept one another, whether you’re coming from what culture, whether you’re coming from what race, this is a NUMSA family and if there is a problem with one of the NUMSA families, we call it “an injury to one is an injury to all” that is what we are portraying here. Don’t look at I am Tswana, Zulu or Xhosa, now we must get these groups. You can come to our meetings and you will see how I conduct meetings, I don’t like separations, I don’t like groupings whatsoever. When we do things let’s do it as a collective. Let’s respect one another, and don’t, whenever you discuss an issue don’t become personal, then I have a fundamental problem. But I’m telling you, no race .., you know there will be, you know how our people are, people behave differently. We preach, because that must also be an education formation of educational programme, ..(unclear), bring it into and racial relations and so on, bring it into an educational programme, so that people, our people can also understand, because you know, here we want to preach this, as we want to preach this here and we accept here we want to move it to the region and then from the region we want to move it to the national. Because at national there is this different groups of culture, who do not want to meet with one another and that becomes a problem, but here we want to try, with the assistance of the almighty, because most of our comrades they are religious. So with their assistance I think we will overcome that, because we need that support from them, Christianity and whatever, but our thinking is, but bring it together so that we can deal with this issue of race. But at this point in time it’s not a major challenge in this local.

Facilitator: Just a few more, just going back. You were involved in student movement activities as well, which is basically politics, and later in ..(unclear), but how you introduced to politics?

Respondent: In the apartheid era, when I was this leader of the ERSACK?? (ERSAC??_ And on SRCs at school and so on, we had an office because there was senior comrades like comrade Andrew Madela, comrade Johannes, Kaptein and all those comrades. We were then incorporated into a movement, starting from UDF and then the formation of mass democratic movement and then to the ANC, but all along we were the young lions in the whole processes, even when it comes to the riots. There was a comrade called Rodney Bosman, there was other comrades but we were the .., remember we had these action committees and street committees and so on, so we were leading that formation during that, when there was a riot and so on. We were leading that in Elsies river, and around Elsies river there was other towns like Matroosfontein, the Klerk estates, the 39 avenue, the Range and all those areas, we moved beyond that addressing comrades in other areas like the Bellaz (Belhar?) and so on, so when we started with this uprising, all were informed. So through the ANC, that was our purpose in the ANC and then later on, can you remember there was this first elections of counsellors in .., is it 1995 or whatever, then they wanted, from the youth, they nominated me to stand for this ..(unclear) an interim council, I said no I can’t accept that, because there was senior comrades like Desera, Martins, Cecil, Ms Ventura, she then went to parliament. But I always refused when it comes to positions because let me tell you, I was a person that wants to be part of a team, let’s call it let’s call it logistics, that was my purpose. I don’t want to be seen on a platform, addressing people as a leader. That didn’t want to do, but I wanted to be part of the movement because we took up at that time, we were even part of the underground. Now that time we said if we die for this we die for the cause. I don’t know what is happening these days, most of the comrades that are with me they went into the NPA, they went into Scorpions and they went into Intelligence and so on, but I never, I stood to the ground because I so dearly loved trade unions. I so dearly loved to work with people and educate people and so on.

Facilitator: your other options when you left school, exile, university?

Respondent: No I went to university but that was also through the unions because I never had funding, I went to UWC to study, there was this, but it was always pertaining politics and trade unionism.

Facilitator: your introduction to trade unions, how did it happen?

Respondent: we had in my time, I was fortunate to have two senior comrades who were on the island with Mandela, one was comrade Pastor Davids, he speaks about him in his book of Freedom. So Pastor Davids was one of my .., one of these, you can’t call them teachers, you must give a word much more higher than a teacher to them, they were on the island and I was then at that point in time, it was Pastor Davids and comrade Gios, who was a principal at some school, he was then detained, put on Robben Island – they came from the Coloured People’s Congress. So they were in prison, so my responsibility was to .., because Pastor couldn’t walk for distances, so I was always asked to pick Pastor at home, bring him to the meeting, take him back, now they encouraged me a lot, him and comrade Gios. They were the custodians, because comrade Gios was part of MK and when I took them around, they always informed me that Deon this and that and they also introduced me at that point in time into trade unionism. Why we need to infiltrate trade unions to assist politically and give guidance and so on. I couldn’t understand it at that point in time because it was too early in my lifetime, but as I grew into politics and into your community challenges and so on, you will enter, where people will come to the office, because we also gave advice to people came to the Advice Office or to the ANC office. We will give people advice and then you come across dismissed people. Now you don’t know about the Labour Relations Act at that point in time, you don’t know about any Act that is protecting these people, how will you guide them. That was interesting, also now you will say I must move back, I must go and get documentation, approach the libraries, see if they’ve got something so that you can assist people. It was like, even now when I speak about trade unions and so on, it’s like a person, I adore it. Some people asked me one evening in Cape Town if there’s a vacancy doing trade union work and then there was a question about remuneration I said I don’t care about remuneration, for me I’m doing it for the love of it. I’m passionate when it comes to trade unionism. Those are the senior persons that have guided, God Bless Pastor David’s soul, he went to his brothers and comrades where they will meet and still discuss with OR, what is the new strategy, but those were the guys that really inspired me.

Facilitator: and your experience in FAWU, are there some things that you want to reflect on, challenges at that time?

Respondent: ja in FAWU, I even applied at FAWU for a position, I was informed that through the secretary, I was successful but the only thing when they took me to the RSC, when they heard I’m coloured at that point in time, Africanism threw me out because I was a coloured, but I also learnt some lessons in FAWU. There was this organiser, he is also late now, comrade Leon, he really also inspired me, he had sessions with me personally, taking me through different stages of trade unionism and so on, even of FAWU and I learnt a lot from him and that in my later days, when I became an official, when I become a shop steward I could have used those tactics in deliberations and so on, and it really assisted me, and up to now, still the old tactics that I learnt 10/20 years ago still come to mind.

Facilitator: you also went to work for NEHAWU which is different from FAWU, different from NUMSA as well. The dynamics of being an organiser for FAWU which is also another world, in a way?

Respondent: I was an organiser for NEHAWU, NEHAWU is a public service union, so everything has been done by the bargaining council, the Public Service Bargaining Council (PSBC), now the challenges there was not major challenges because they were being regulated and guided and protected through PSBC, so the normal things was application for jobs, maybe for your certificate and so on, that was the normal things, because the conditions, where it turns into that and bargaining becomes documentation, so it was either negotiations was done with government but it was a national issue because everything went through ..(unclear). The similarities now was recruitment, servicing members and so on, but that was different. NUMSA is a very revolutionary union, dealing with the manufacturing, so things can happen, like the health and safety and so on, so all the Acts that you prescribe to need to be noted in NUMSA because you need to use, you make use of those Acts even employment discrimination and so on. So you will work with different documentation and legislation and Acts in NUMSA. So this is a challenge, whilst NEHAWU was not so a big challenge, but in NUMSA on a day to day basis, you can’t sit still you will be busy, there will be this, there will be that.

Facilitator: Post 1994 which direction do you think the unions should have taken? Have they taken the right direction because the government was now run by the people so to speak as opposed to the apartheid regime?

Respondent: No I think, what you must remember prior 1994, the unions played a major role by overthrowing this apartheid government. Remember in 1987 there was lots of strikes, marches, pertaining to the recognition of trade unions, now after 1994, there was this, they called it this alliance partners. Now COSATU was part of this, now at that point time because you could see the role that COSATU has played, because in the .., past 1994 we had concluded a Labour Relations Act under the new government, Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the Employment Equity Act, a Skills Development Act. Those were critical for us because, prior to 1994 we worked on a 1956 Labour Relations Act. So this was very critical for us. Even now the role that COSATU is playing in the alliance is very important, pertaining the improvement of the lives of the working class, pertaining the watchdogs for government, particularly when there was a promise, but when you look at the manifesto, what are we talking about, we are talking about decent housing, we are talking about decent employment, decent jobs and so on, so we need to drive it to that, through that formation, that’s when the establishment of NEDLAC was pushed, very crucial for us to put our points through as the working class. And we achieved a lot through this government. And still, what we are doing, watching government, of the implementation of certain processes, and even the freedom of speech that we have in COSATU, when we don’t align ourselves with the movement pertaining certain processes, we will speak out against that. So you know people will come and say ‘no but why don’t you form a working class political party’. I said no because we believe through this alliance, we believe that the national democratic revolution, those formations an processes can be won, what we know we must use, and that’s why there’s this link in between COSATU and the SACP, because we also feel that the SACP will be the vehicle to bring about socialism, and that is what we are striving for. So we must use .., the alliance partnership is very important for the objectives that we have established long before so that we can go through that, whatever hurdles we have we can overcome them.

Facilitator: but in general are you guys happy with the Labour Laws?

Respondent: Obviously some people will say to you that the Labour Laws will favour employers mostly, but I am telling you if you use the Labour Law and understand the Labour Law you can use most of the provisions to your advantage as a labour, as the unions. We must adhere because all legislation or all agreements regulates through parties, and when a document regulates through parties, there will be provisions for a certain party and there will be provisions for another party, the other party in that same agreement or in that same education. It depends on how you use it to your advantage. So there are certain things that we want to change in the Labour Relations Act but there’s other things that we can, as we go along with these processes, we can try to get the provisions but at this point in time, what we have done by formalising and the Labour Relations Act as it stands, was a very explicit document produced by both the parties, the working class and government. Whatever we need to change we can change it in the formations. Even other documentation, if you look at the Basic Conditions of the Employment Act, prescribes to .., now in the main agreement or the agreement between the employers and the unions you can better it on that basis, on that foundation.

Facilitator: In general the worker/employer relationship within NUMSA industry around Kimberley, how would you describe it?

Respondent: In general when it comes to engineering companies, we don’t have a huge problem when it comes to the relationship between workers and management or the employers. But when it comes to motor because some employers in motor doesn’t want to accept the provisions of the main agreement, and then you can see I can even show you cases, most of the cases come from the motor industry. But from the engineering it’s rare, one or two and the relationship that we also promote from the office is that we want to have a relationship with the employers, not a face by relationship, just a relationship, understanding a relationship, understanding the relationship of respect, that is what we are promoting from the office side, even with the employers of the motor. I normally speak to them on regular basis and say I don’t want to fight, let’s talk about certain things. I think we can bring in humanity because it seems we have forgotten about humanity, why every time you want to take out the gun or the spade when you want to deal with your worker, why can’t we just sit and talk because there’s provisions made in the Labour Relations Act, how to deal with certain things under the Code of Good Practice, so let’s use those provisions. Even sometimes from the union, you will go, even with a plea attitude to the employers just to get hold of hands off the worker and so on. So sometimes you will even compromise your dignity just to see that the worker still have a job, they still have an income and so on. So from the office, we as the office staff we are doing our utmost best and sometimes workers can do a lot of challenging things, misconducts and so on, it’s a problem when workers go to work when they are drunk or when they go to work when they are in the influence of drugs or whatever and then workers expect you to still represent them, also workers go to the company and start stealing. So that is also a learning process that must also be part of the education of the shop stewards, of our workers, our members. The other thing also is the mutual respect for one another. That is also what we also what we want to emphasise again, first we have to start with our house, our people respect one another here, and discipline amongst each other and then we want to move it outside. So that is still a challenge.

Facilitator: so in other words you have to deal with cases of dismissals, if people went to work drunk, stealing from work etc. Are those cases winnable?

Respondent: sometimes because a drunk, there’s a process that you need to follow under the Labour Relations Act and there’s 8, sometimes you get them off the hook, the other time they will rather come and say can’t we try for a settlement and so on, because I must get a mandate from them, I can’t use my own. So we are getting them off. And then we start with the education process, theft we can’t tolerate but still we have a local dispute committee that decides whether we must proceed with this case or not. So if they indicate to me that ‘Deon take this case up’, I just do maybe conciliation and see how far it goes. But then obviously we will be open with the worker and say to him this was your mistake and so on, how will we deal with this. And sometimes when we get into these court cases and that, workers will not tell you the whole truth, when you approach conciliation or arbitration, the employer produce a document, with about 7/8 final warnings and then when you ask him “did you know about this” I show them they have signed for the warnings, how do we deal with this. That is what, and that is really frustrating us because out of that, the legal processes, there’s organisational process, and then regional processes, there’s national processes, there’s directives of everyone, so on a day to day basis you will find yourself you’re busy with this, you’re busy with that and you must apply your mind because tomorrow the worker will come and say he didn’t represent me well. He was not prepared but he doesn’t tell you what happened in the hearing, what was produced in that hearing and he couldn’t answer that. So that is all the things that you need to take care of and always cover your back when you do things, do it, right documentation, keep it here, sign it off, put it in the files and so on, so that you can also be protected because workers can point a finger very quickly at you because they believe .., and this is what they say “we are paying subscription fees and you need to work in whatever ways” – no it doesn’t work like that you get fair treatment at your workplace. Some people will say trade unions are the worst employers. I can’t say when it comes to me, Deon having some interventions with NUMSA itself, I never had any problems with them

Facilitator: and CCMA, how does it fit in here in Kimberley and so on?

Respondent: we have very good relations with CCMA, we have a good relations with the DRC, the Dispute Resolution Centre and the Centre for Dispute Resolution (CDR), the DRC is for the motor and the CDR is for the engineering. We have very good relations with them, I don’t have a problem with the commissioners they appoint to preside over matters. I go there and present my case, the commissioner will always say to me Deon, there’s one commissioner that I can recommend, “Deon you have represented this person very well but this and this which was produced by the employers because I can’t, because there’s case law that prescribes it, so I can’t, whatever you have done you have put them on the stand, you have, I can’t because remember also we are concerned about what happened, this happened in the past, he never brought it to your attention so that you could have challenged it under unfair practice and so on, so that will hamper your case, I don’t have a problem”. If I have a problem, what I will do, I had a problem with one of the commissioners at the Electrical Bargaining Council and I wrote him a letter, expressed my concerns and afterwards we resolved it.

Facilitator: but is the Bargaining is it effective, how would you describe it? Council

Respondent: Bargaining Council is very, you know from our side, as you have seen this morning, that person came to me on Friday, he had a problem with his IRP 5 because he can’t get it from the Bargaining Council, they said to me Deon write a letter, I wrote a letter on Friday and this morning, because I was here from 7 o’clock, this morning it was sent, that’s why when he came here I gave it to him and said now you can go to SARS. Fundamentally I don’t have a problem with the Bargaining Councils, whatever I request, even with the agents, sometimes it was, sometimes members are getting frustrated, they want this agent now, but remember the agents also have their own programmes, they have their own interventions. So I can’t .., the only problem that I’m having is with the Metal and Engineering Industries Bargaining Council (MEIBC), this year we asked them to investigate about training and so on, in two companies, one is MFI the other one was KIESKI. Now I then asked them in the letter if you’re finished with your investigation can you then submit me a report so that I can speak, take the report to workers and shop stewards and speak to them, this is the findings of the report, up to now I never received it. The person that was in charge of the report and investigation was an inspector, De Waal, something like that. To date I have not received the report but they promised that this one company will be fined with R1000 because they didn’t comply with certain things. But I didn’t receive it in paper. So that is my only concern that I need to raise with you. But otherwise, there’s a flexibility, there is a very good working relationship between us and the bargaining councils.

Facilitator: Is there anything that you think which should have been part of this interview?

Respondent: I think I have touched on all and even deliberated more on certain areas, but one thing I can tell you, if I don’t know how long my lifespan is, I want to be part of trade unions forever, because there’s always new things coming into the arena, there’s always new challenges and so on, this year I can tell you, when I started in Kimberley, we had new challenges, very big projects but we have completed successfully, we are now busy with our last project which is ..(unclear) shop steward elections, we want to complete it by the end of October, then we go for local office bearer elections in November and then next year it will be the 100 YEARS OF THE ANC in Bloemfontein, that will be another challenge and then there will be another challenge after that, the Elective Regional Congress in Bloemfontein. So we need to prepare our people for that.

Facilitator: any regrets for being involved in unions?

Respondent: No I don’t have, I should have started earlier in my lifetime, I don’t have regrets even being part of the movement, the ANC, being part of the SACP, I don’t regret any of that. What really disturbs me is these lighties, the Malema lighty and so on, I don’t know what happened to the respect in this movement, and the respect and discipline that I have gathered from this movement for a long time. The other thing I’m disturbed about is this position, status etc., I can’t, you know for me, coming from an ANC, starting in what, in my early years, I was 13 or 14, seeing these things happening, is uncalled for. I am not satisfied, whatever must happen to Malema must happen to him because it is prescribed in the constitution. If you bring, even in our constitution, if you bring this union into disrepute, we will deal with you. Why must we still have this soft gloves and this white gloves on, deal with it according to that provision in the constitution. Now because people are uprising, looking here at the political arena, there’s comrades that has been involved with tenders and whatsoever, when they appear in court there will be a platform before the court buildings, people will be bussed in and all that. What is that comrade? Even I said whatever happens to me one day in NUMSA and I need to appear in court, I don’t want comrades to come and .., because I must know, whether I have done something wrong or whether I’m guilty of certain things, if I’m not guilty let’s go there and I will prove.

Facilitator: When talking about that and so on, have you ever been harassed by the police maybe in the 1980s and so on?

Respondent: Ja I have been, some of my comrades, we went to church on a Sunday and Boesak and Stevens, all those guys were there, but I was on my way somewhere and I had to come back and when I came back the Casspirs and that went into the church, they even trapped down of the church and went inside and arrested everybody, I was lucky because I was not in, I came because I was sent somewhere and when I came back this was happening. So at that point in time, we had to organise because everybody was in jail, we had to reorganise ourselves, so maybe that was a good purpose why I was outside because the struggle was still to continue. The boers thought when they arrested those guys and all the leadership was inside nothing will happen, and then we started, the Monday morning, fires were burning, they couldn’t understand. So when they start harassing me, because they had our names, my father then took me away to the Northern Cape for two weeks just to relax, but there was always this harassment from the police and so on. I survived because they couldn’t catch me although they knew where I was. People would warn me that the boers are looking for me. They couldn’t find me, always when there was these things I was always on the run and or I was busy with something else or I was at another place and so on. So they couldn’t find me. When Rocky (??) and them came out of Vicky Vanster (Victor Verster?), they couldn’t understand what happened here. I knew we must still put pressure on the apartheid government and we did it. That’s why I’m saying it was really .., if I must go home tomorrow, if there’s a decision that I must go home forever, I want people to remember that I enjoyed my life, I’ve seen things and I went through things and it was good because those things have made me to this person that Deon is today. I can relate to almost everything and I know that respect must be in front of all things that you want to achieve, respect and discipline, must be there before you come, it must walk in front of you, that is what I learnt and the people that I met in my life was people, contributors, people that contributed to my life, my family, my mother was a teacher, my father was a normal worker. But my father was a person, he didn’t take any shit from a white person. Maybe some of those elements came into my system, and in my life because even, my mother and father are from this side, so when we drove, in the apartheid era, coming home, there was these shops, whites/blacks, my father he couldn’t tolerate that. He went to the white side, that is how he was. My father was a person that didn’t take shit, if you don’t respect me, no matter what you are, I don’t respect you, that was his philosophy, and I’m also like that. If you don’t respect me, I will not respect you, but if you respect me I will always respect you. I think he laid that foundation even on all of us. When I went to work after schooling, my brother took over, he started with politics, my little brother. Still today he is the same hardegat person. So I can tell you, from the family side, that foundation and Mama, my mother was a very respectable person, and the respect she brought it to us, respect, discipline and so on, she was a very eenvoudige mens, a very cultural person by beliefs and so on. So I must thank them, mama is late 21 years ago, she had cancer, my dad is still alive but that is that in my family. I have three sisters, two of them are teachers in Cape Town and so on, the elder one is working because the second elder one, she works for 711, she is working for them. We had to take her out of school when my mama started becoming sick and look after the house. All of them are still in Cape Town.

Facilitator: are you married?

Respondent: I was married, I was divorced, I have a son and a daughter, I have vas one before my marriage and my oldest one is now in New Zealand.

Facilitator: did your involvement in politics affected your family?

Respondent: I think so, my involvement with trade unions, politics and so on, really affected my family because if you don’t have a person coming from your corridors or environment or that foundation, who doesn’t understand, the person that was never involved, it will become a problem because in my married life, let me be honest with you. I could sit still for two or three days at home but when the third day comes I must be out, I don’t know why, but I must be out, remember the relationships that we had in those days, when we come together we talk about politics, some of our friends as I said they are scattered in Jo’burg, Pretoria and so on but December we go home. Then we will have that, so I couldn’t, I will sit for two/three days and then something will come and I will say – let me go out and ..- and I think even when it came to communication, we couldn’t, she was a professional person, we will talk about education and so on, but when it comes to politics then we didn’t communicate well. And then even all of us that were married are divorced today, they couldn’t. The guys in Pretoria they will tell you .., what we said after 1994, they should have brought, because we had to go under, psychologically they had to bring in professionals to take us so that we can .., but that didn’t happen. So even in that family life, married life, if I want to come to you I will call and come etc. And I could express myself when I’m with you and with all the other friends, and that .., and also my work, because most of my work was away from home. I was deployed and so on, so that really, even now, I’m here, I’m alone but I like to meet with comrades, and dear comrades, not comrades that are two by eights, no. I am talking about a dear comrade that still believes in the formations and the principles of 1955.

The class of 1996 ..(unclear) but that is political interference and so on but still what we have, what was adopted we still believe in that. We can’t move away from that. What is happening as I was saying to you, these positions, the tenders and all those have done a lot of ..(unclear) look at the youth today, our economic freedom in my lifetime, what about those, our fathers and our grandfathers worked – what about them? They may not be here today but they have worked so that we can succeed. Now you want to come, you never even worked, stand on street corners, you toyi toyi and you never had a payslip but you want to say economic freedom in my lifetime. No, I can’t accept that really.

Facilitator: it’s a recipe for disaster.

Respondent: you can have a different view but this is my view.

Facilitator: I share that with you, it doesn’t make any economic sense or social sense.

Respondent: Look in our lifetime, we were at school, there was this struggle but still you had to do all these other things at once. Now you want to have, they say I want to be rich like him, I want to drive a Mercedes, I want to

Facilitator: live in Sandton and so on

Respondent: I am thankful for what God has given me. I’ve got a job and I must do my job so that I can be paid at the end of the day and be satisfied. I can go on my knees when I get my pay check and say “Thank you Lord”. I have done what I was supposed to do or today when a comrade comes here and you have maybe a system that is ..(unclear) and it was positive or successful, do you know how you sit here and you feel inside, but you will say, people doesn’t and what I normally say to myself, is not through you, first you need to thank God for what you got and then you will see that satisfaction. People are coming in here, when you deal with their cases and maybe they won their cases, the only thing that I’ve said to people is, I say to them the only thing I want from them is just to say Thank You, I don’t need anything else, Thank You gives me more energy to do better tomorrow. We don’t, in Cape Town that was not, people saying thank you, please and so on, here people come back and say “Dankie”, you know how that makes you feel. It’s a good feeling, even what you are doing in your community, people will just come and say Thank you.

Facilitator: it’s the labour of love

Respondent: thanks for that, a labour of love

Facilitator: comrade let me free you, we have taken more than an hour

Respondent: it was really pleasure having you in my company today, this is a blessed Monday morning.

END

Collection Number: A3402 Collection Name: Labour Struggles Project, Interviews, 2009-2012

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