NEWSMAKER INTERVIEW burden researchers with reporting require- ments, then you’ve done a bad thing. And on April 21, 2009 John Holdren Brings More Than Energy we’ll try to avoid that. To His Role as Science Adviser Q: Do you expect OSTP to play a bigger role in national security? President ’s three domestic engineering, and mathematics education. J.H.: Steve Fetter is assistant director at priorities—energy, health care, and educa- Three weeks into his job, Holdren says large, so I can deploy him on energy, climate tion—provide John Holdren with a road OSTP and government scientists are “ener- change, and nuclear weapons. Steve has a map for serving as the president’s science gized” by his boss’s bold promise to “restore background very similar to my own, and

adviser. They also point to three different science to its rightful place.” In a conversa- Steve has a portfolio similar to mine, and www.sciencemag.org ways in which the 65-year-old physicist, on tion with Science’s Jeffrey Mervis, Holdren when I can’t be in two places at once, I have leave from ’s John F. spoke frankly on issues ranging from complete confidence that Steve will be Kennedy School of Government, may carry nuclear proliferation to the teaching of evo- bringing the same things to the table. We out his second job, that of director of the lution. The following is an edited transcript; will ultimately have an associate director 50-person Office of Science and Technol- a complete version is available online at who will be dual-hatted in the [National ogy Policy (OSTP) within the White House. Science’s policy blog, ScienceInsider Security Council]. But I also have a role in On energy, Holdren told Science last (blogs.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/ the NSC. Whenever science and technology Downloaded from week in one of his first interviews since his 2009/04/in-full-intervi.html). are on the table, I’m there. Senate confirmation 19 March, he hopes to –JEFFREY MERVIS wield considerable influence. “Energy is Q: Is building a renewable replacement one of my big things. I’m going to pay a lot Q: Are you concerned that reporting weapon necessary to win Senate approval of of attention to energy,” says Holdren, who requirements for the American Recovery the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT)? has extensive experience in energy, climate, and Reinvestment Act (the $787 billion J.H.: My personal view—I don’t make the and nuclear-proliferation issues. At the same stimulus package) will hamstring U.S. sci- policy, but I provide advice—is that we do time, Holdren signaled that the President’s entists? Or is that the price to pay for this not need a new warhead. [A National Acad- Council of Advisors on Science and Tech- massive influx of funding? emies’report I led] concluded that the safety nology (PCAST), co-chaired by medicine J.H.: There’s clearly a tension there. When and effectiveness of the current nuclear Nobelist and former National Institutes of you do something as big as the recovery stockpile could be maintained indefinitely Health director Harold Varmus and Eric package, there’s tremendous pressure to without developing new warheads, by moni- Lander of the Massachusetts Institute of make sure that you don’t just push the toring the situation and making modifica- Technology, is likely to be the nexus for any money out the door without any attention to tions if necessary. health care debates within OSTP. He assessment and evaluation. But the other My personal view is that designing a acknowledged that he expects the president side of the coin is that you don’t want to bur- nuclear warhead and deploying it would throw to rely heavily on Education Secretary Arne den people who are doing good work with a out a good part of the baby with the bath water. Duncan, a fellow Chicagoan and basketball degree of reporting requirements that impair It negates a substantial advantage to ratifying buddy, for guidance on improving U.S. their productivity in any significant way. So the test ban treaty because it would send a schools, with OSTP playing a complemen- it’s a fundamental tension, and I’m not sure message to the world that the United States

tary role in reforming science, technology, that we’ve got it exactly right. … If you over- still thinks that it can and should design and PETE SOUZA/WHITE HOUSE PHOTO CREDIT:

324 17 APRIL 2009 VOL 324 SCIENCE www.sciencemag.org Published by AAAS NEWS OF THE WEEK

On board. In his second day on the job, John Holdren Q: Will the portfolios of the associate direc- for science who is known for his or her com- (left) joined President Barack Obama and local tors be science, technology, energy/envi- mitment to strengthening science, technol- students in a phone call to the space station. ronment, and national security/inter- ogy, engineering, and math education. That’s national affairs? already clear. deploy new warheads when circumstances J.H.:Yep. Although when you say energy, the require it. If that’s the case, what have you title will be environment, and how energy Q: So you have somebody in mind? accomplished with CTBT? will be handled remains to be seen. It J.H.: I do. And this is a big deal for the pres- depends in part on who we recruit for tech- ident. His commitment to education is Q: Will additional shuttle missions be nology. Right now, the only associate direc- clear, and it’s shared by the education sec- needed to complete the space station? tor who has been nominated is Shere Abbott, retary, Arne Duncan. We’re going to do a J.H.: The current plan is to get an additional for environment. lot in that domain. shuttle mission to the space station within the 2010 framework. … If that can’t be done Q: So you haven’t decided where energy Q: Staying with education, do you think and things slip, then consideration will be will go? that the Texas state school board’s recent given to going beyond that date. And that J.H.: Well, energy is one of my big things. decision to add a skeptical view of the would be the last shuttle mission. There will I’m going to pay a lot of attention to energy. study of evolution and the fossil record be a gap in our capacity to put people in Energy is one of Steve Fetter’s big things. weaken the state’s science standards and space with U.S. vehicles, because we will And we have Kevin Hurst, a senior policy weaken national efforts to improve sci- not have a follow-on to the shuttle ready analyst who’s been working on energy. So ence education? before 2015. right now we have a strong energy team, and J.H.: Well, I have not reviewed that decision we’ll be bringing even more energy capabil- carefully. But my impression from reading Q: Will it be only 5 years? ity on board. about it is that it was not a step forward but J.H.: I wouldn’t want to speculate. It’s going rather a step backward. Of course, all science to be at least that long. I don’t see any way needs to be skeptical. It’s hard to be against on April 21, 2009 we can do it before 2015, and if things go as “Designing a nuclear warhead skepticism. But when you get into the domain they often do, it might be a little later than and deploying it … negates a of promoting particular views about the basis 2015. And what we’ll have to do in that for skepticism of evolution, and those views interim period is rely on our international substantial advantage to are not really valid, then I think we have a partners, which means the Russians. It ratifying the [Comprehensive] problem. I think we need to be giving our kids might also be the Chinese, depending on a modern education in biology, and the under- how our relationship develops. Test Ban Treaty.” pinning of modern biology is evolution. And —JOHN HOLDREN countervailing views that are not really sci-

Q: Do you have confidence in China’s abil- ence, if they are taught at all, should be taught www.sciencemag.org ity to launch our astronauts? in some other part of the curriculum. J.H.: I think it’s possible in principle to Q: Given the Administration’s energy team— develop the required degree of confidence in Steve Chu, , Lisa Jackson, Q: Is there anything you can do? the Chinese. I put it out there only as specula- among others—what special expertise and J.H.: I’m not aware of any leverage we have, tion, but I don’t think it should be ruled out. perspective do you bring? at OSTP or within the federal government, J.H.: Number one, of the people you just over the science curriculum in Texas, other Q: Will your review of scientific ethics named, the only other scientist is Steve Chu. than exhortation. We can argue and we can Downloaded from include a review of conflict-of-interest poli- And Steve Chu and I, in the interagency beg and we can try to educate. But we have cies at each agency? working group on energy and climate, repre- no authority to act. J.H.: I think it has to look at that. I wouldn’t sent the science and technology side. Steve prejudge what we’re going to say. But the and I are both knowledgeable about a wide Q: Were you troubled by the recent question is, “What are the appropriate variety of energy technologies, and we are National Academies’ report that one in six boundaries?” very close partners. We both know a fair life scientists say they have self-censored amount about climate science, and we have some of their research because of security Q: What about full disclosure for all others working for us who know even more. concerns, and is there anything you can do? National Institutes of Health (NIH) Carol Browner, the former EPA director, J.H.: That is a tough one. I think security con- grantees? is a brilliant analyst of policy and regulation. cerns in the biological domain are real, and J.H.: I don’t feel comfortable prejudging And we have at the table Larry Summers, we cannot be cavalier about the propagation that. It’s not a domain with which I’m , and Peter Orszag, who of findings that could be used by terrorists to closely familiar. I would be interested in cover the economic side. We also have Cab- harm us. But what the right approach to man- the views of Harold Varmus and Eric Lan- inet secretaries who have big stakes in the aging those risks is, is something we’ll con- der on that. They are co-chairs of PCAST, energy issue, and they bring to the table tinue to struggle with. which has not yet been fully constituted. … important constituencies. There was self-censoring within the And since I have, as co-chair of PCAST, the nuclear community in the late former director of NIH, and one of the Q: How will OSTP handle science education? [19]30s and ’40s, when it became clear to smartest people I know, I’m not going to go J.H.: It’ll be within the associate director for scientists that there was potential for on record on that issue without talking first science. Everybody has a stake in it, how- weapons of vast destructive power. And I to Harold. ever. And we will have an associate director think that was a good thing.

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