COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

WEDNESDAY, 13 MAY 1998

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—SEVENTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 13 MAY

Declaration of Senators’ Interests ...... 2611 Social Security Legislation Amendment (Youth Allowance Consequential and Related Measures) Bill 1998— Second Reading ...... 2611 Legislative Instruments Bill 1996 [No. 2]— Second Reading ...... 2632 In Committee ...... 2633 Matters of Public Interest— Western Australia: Resource Development Projects ...... 2647 Election of Senators ...... 2649 Mr Len Howard ...... 2651 Australian Labor Party: Selection of Candidates ...... 2653 Patrick Stevedores ...... 2656 Competition Reform ...... 2659 Questions Without Notice— Budget 1998-99 ...... 2661 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2663 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2664 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2665 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2667 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2668 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2670 Distinguished Visitors ...... 2671 Questions Without Notice— Jabiluka Uranium Mine ...... 2671 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2672 Budget 1998-99 ...... 2674 Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 2675 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Budget 1998-99 ...... 2675 Petitions— Logging and Woodchipping ...... 2682 Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 2682 Repatriation Benefits ...... 2682 Legal Aid ...... 2683 Forests ...... 2683 Native Title ...... 2683 Multilateral Agreement on Investment ...... 2684 Youth Allowance ...... 2684 Notices of Motion— Regulations and Ordinances Committee ...... 2684 Introduction of Legislation ...... 2684 Regulations and Ordinances Committee ...... 2684 Royal Flying Doctor Service ...... 2692 Telstra ...... 2692 Introduction of Legislation ...... 2692 Introduction of Legislation ...... 2692 Toxic Waste ...... 2692 Royal Flying Doctor Service ...... 2693 Natural Heritage Trust ...... 2693 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report ...... 2694 Order of Business— Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts References Committee ...... 2698 Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee .... 2698 Human Rights ...... 2698 Carrier Licence Conditions (Optus Mobile Pty Ltd) Declaration 1997 . 2698 CONTENTS—continued

Carrier Licence Conditions (Optus Networks Pty Ltd) Declaration 1997 2698 Carrier Licence Conditions (Vodaphone Pty Ltd) Declaration 1997 . . 2698 Genetic Engineering ...... 2699 Music Industry ...... 2699 Introduction of Legislation ...... 2699 Electoral: Associated Entities ...... 2699 Commonwealth Electoral Commission ...... 2699 Tasmania: Funding For Intellectually Disabled ...... 2699 Indonesia ...... 2699 Waterfront ...... 2699 Waterfront— Suspension of Standing Orders ...... 2701 Procedural Motion ...... 2702 Motion ...... 2702 Waterfront ...... 2702 Committees— Treaties Committee—Extension of Time ...... 2704 Matters of Public Importance— Health ...... 2704 Notices of Motion— Superannuation Committee ...... 2717 Budget 1997-98— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Additional Information . . 2717 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Report ...... 2718 Budget 1997-98— Consideration of Legislation Committees—Additional Information . . . 2718 Australian Prudential Regulation Authority Bill 1998, Authorised Deposit-taking Institutions Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Authorised Non-operating Holding Companies Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Financial Institutions Supervisory Levies Collection Bill 1998, Financial Sector Reform (Amendments and Transitiional Provisions) Bill 1998, Financial Sector (Shareholdings) Bill 1998, General Insurance Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Life Insurance Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Payment Systems (Regulation) Bill 1998, Retirement Savings Account Providers Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Superannuation Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998— Report of Economics Legislation Committee ...... 2718 Committees— Uranium Mining and Milling Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 2718 Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee: Joint—Report ..... 2729 Documents— Auditor-General’s Reports— Report No. 40 of 1997-98 ...... 2733 Report No. 41 of 1997-98 ...... 2733 Committees— Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 2733 Duck Hunting ...... 2733 Youth Suicide ...... 2733 Representation of The Northern Territory ...... 2733 Grafton Meatworks ...... 2733 Assent to Laws ...... 2733 Committees— Membership ...... 2734 Parliamentary Retiring Allowances Trust ...... 2734 Australian Prudential Regulation Authority Bill 1998, CONTENTS—continued

Authorised Deposit-taking Institutions Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Authorised Non-operating Holding Companies Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Superannuation Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Retirement Savings Account Providers Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Life Insurance Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, General Insurance Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998, Financial Institutions Supervisory Levies Collection Bill 1998, Financial Sector Reform (Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 1998, Payment Systems (Regulation) Bill 1998, Financial Sector (Shareholdings) Bill 1998— First Reading ...... 2735 Second Reading ...... 2735 Social Security and Veterans’ Affairs Legislation Amendment (Pension Bonus Scheme) Bill 1998, Student and Youth Assistance Amendment Bill 1998, Telstra (Transition to Full Private Ownership) Bill 1998, Tax Law Improvement Bill (No. 1) 1998, Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 3) 1998, Commonwealth Rehabilitation Service Reform Bill 1998— First Reading ...... 2742 Second Reading ...... 2742 Committees— Membership ...... 2751 Social Security Legislation Amendment (Youth Allowance Consequential and Related Measures) Bill 1998— In Committee ...... 2751 Documents— Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission ...... 2755 Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation ...... 2756 UNESCO General Conference: Australian Delegation Report ...... 2756 Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty ...... 2757 Adjournment— Information Technology ...... 2759 Waterfront ...... 2761 Higher Education ...... 2762 Welfare Payments ...... 2766 Documents— Tabling ...... 2768 Proclamations ...... 2770 Questions On Notice— Department of Finance and Administration: Training or Seminars—(Question No. 1027) ...... 2771 Superannuation—(Question No. 1061) ...... 2771 Small Business—(Question No. 1075) ...... 2772 Education—(Question No. 1077) ...... 2772 Workplace Relations—(Question No. 1079) ...... 2773 Austudy—(Question No. 1085) ...... 2776 Defence Personnel: Investigation—(Question No. 1088) ...... 2777 Green Corps—(Question No. 1094) ...... 2778 Parliamentary Departments: Audits—(Question No. 1100) ...... 2784 Veterans’ Vehicle Assistance Scheme—(Question No. 1104) ...... 2784 Data Matching Program—(Question No. 1107) ...... 2786 Expo 2000 World Trade Fair—(Question No. 1109) ...... 2787 Logging and Woodchipping—(Question No. 1111) ...... 2787 Mineral Exploration—(Question No. 1113) ...... 2788 Senator Tierney: Office Relocation—(Question No. 1127) ...... 2788 Department of Social Security: Research—(Question No. 1140) ..... 2789 Budget Forward Estimates ...... 2789 SENATE 2611

Wednesday, 13 May 1998 Before I go on to deal with those matters, I remind the chamber and the community at large about the effect of the youth allowance The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. package, because although it was put forward Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., by this government as a move to put more and read prayers. young people back into education, in fact the real effect of much of this package is to DECLARATION OF SENATORS’ punish families who are not particularly well INTERESTS off, despite being labelled as such by the Motion (by Senator Ian Campbell) agreed Minister for Social Security (Senator New- to: man). That the following subparagraph be added to This legislation requires families who earn paragraph 5 of the Senate’s order of 17 March as little as $23,700 to support their children 1994 relating to the registration and declaration of between the ages of 18 and 21—and although senators’ interests: this legislation uses the term ‘children’, they (2) For the purposes of subparagraph (1), in are in fact young adults between the ages of proceedings on a bill a declaration of a 18 and 21. I do not believe that families on relevant interest shall be made: those levels of income—and we are talking (a) when a senator first speaks in debate on generally about a family with two parents, at any stage of consideration of the bill; and least one adult child and sometimes other (b) when a senator first votes in a division at children—should be expected to support their any stage of the consideration of the bill; children at an age when the community at and large accepts that they are adults, as they are (c) when a senator speaks or votes in a over the age of 18. division on an amendment to the bill which raises an issue not included in an To return to the bill that is before us, as I earlier declaration of interest during said, it puts in place a number of administra- proceedings on the bill. tive arrangements relating to the youth allow- ance proposal, but it does some other things SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION as well. It transfers from DEETYA three AMENDMENT (YOUTH ALLOWANCE payments that were generally regarded as CONSEQUENTIAL AND RELATED education payments to the Department of MEASURES) BILL 1998 Social Security and, subsequently, they will Second Reading also be administered by Centrelink. They are, firstly, Austudy; secondly, the pensioner Debate resumed from 1 April, on motion by education supplement; and, thirdly, the finan- Senator Alston: cial supplement loans scheme which was That this bill be now read a second time. introduced by the previous Labor government Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (9.32 and which is probably better known as the a.m.)—I rise to speak in the second reading student loans scheme. debate on the Social Security Legislation One of the sad things about all of these Amendment (Youth Allowance Consequential changes is that, even though the government and Related Measures) Bill. This is the has stated that it will encourage people to go second of a package of bills to put into place back to education, I believe that ‘encourage- the youth allowance arrangements which have ment’ is a dangerous term, because it beats been put forward by this government. I young people around the head and forces suppose in most cases you would consider them to go back into education. With regard that a bill which is entitled ‘consequential’ to the 27,000 people who are expected to be would be only that, but although it does forced back into education—and that is school contain the administrative arrangements for education—there has really been no provision the new youth allowance, it goes a little made by this government to ensure that further. proper funding and services are provided for 2612 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 those young people. There is a great fear on there seems to be every time a change is put the part of the Labor opposition—and I forward by the government, there is a nip believe it is a fear that is shared by many here and a tuck there. Somehow the people parents of children at school and also by involved always come out of the transitional schools and teachers—that those young process with just a little bit less and in some people returning to school who are unwilling cases a lot less than they started with. This is or not suited to the school environment may exactly what is happening with this bill. disrupt educational services and the class- room. In fact, the result of this package will As always with this government, the people be that those who are happily at school and who are worst off—ordinary Australians, are pleased to be there may find that their families who do not have big incomes—are educational opportunities are limited or the people who pay in the end. We saw that restricted by those people who have been last night. I suspect, as long as we have this forced back into school by this government’s government, we will continue to see that the policies who are not suited to that environ- people who pay are the people on low in- ment. comes who are ordinary Australians. It is quite ironic to see that at the same time Who are the people who will be worse off there have been major cuts in TAFE educa- as a result of this bill? Personal income tax tion. Certainly, in my time, TAFE education currently allows students to earn $6,000 was often an alternative form of education for before their Austudy entitlement is reduced by those young people who might have liked to 50c for each $1 earned. This new bill propos- continue their studies but who found that es that only the first $80 per fortnight of school was not suited to them or who wanted additional income be reduced at the 50 per a more practical, hands-on type of education. cent rate and that after that reduction will be 70c in the dollar; in other words, a much At the same time as forcing young adults steeper taper. My belief is that this sort of back into education, there has been a major very steep taper is quite contrary to public cut in TAFE funding, a major cut in higher policy and the way we have been treating the education funding and a movement to user- integration of government payments and pays based academic education in the univer- income over some period of time. sities rather than a merit based education. That move is a great negative and one which There is always a very big concern with I think we will regret in the future. I always these steep tapers that the steeper you make saw a great distinction between higher educa- the taper, the more people lose when they tion in Australia and higher education in earn some small additional income and the many other countries where you could only more likely it is that people receiving these get into university if you had parents who payments will be discouraged from earning were affluent. I am saddened by the fact that additional income. This is bad. It is bad for we are seeing a movement here in Australia students because they do not have the advan- where students are not getting into university tage of additional income. It is also bad for based on how hard they work and how bright the government and for the rest of the taxpay- they are; students are getting into university ing community because, if students do not on the basis of how much mummy and daddy make an effort to earn additional income, in can provide financially. That is a pretty poor the end government payments will be higher. situation. I am very concerned to see this sharpening Going back to the bill: those three payments of the taper, the taking of more money from which are presently made by DEETYA will students when they earn small amounts of now be administered through Social Security. additional income. I might go back to this I understand that as of 1 July 1998 these later and give some further examples of it. payments will come from Centrelink. The This particular cut-out provision also applies transition is not as straightforward as we where income is earned by the partners of would like to be told by the government. As Austudy recipients. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2613

There is another group of losers in the bill, that some people, who have done six months that is, students who are over 25 years and in a course, suddenly find their circumstances are living at home. There seems to be some have changed and they can no longer afford discussion about the government giving way to continue. So they have to go off and either on this issue. If that is the case, I will be very get a job or, sadly, go onto unemployment pleased to hear that. Possibly Senator New- benefits and the effort and expense that they man, when she speaks to the Senate later and the educational institution have gone to today, might point it out. This is not a large will be wasted. group—it has been estimated to be 1,000 Alternatively, I suppose, there could be students—but these students have been par- circumstances where young people might ticularly adversely affected because a new at- have gone into education if they had known home rate for over-25s has been introduced these changes were coming, but who had which means a reduction of approximately made a decision not to, and to seek work or $90 a fortnight for those on the maximum do something else. It would seem to me much rate. For students on limited income such as more logical and fairer to everyone concerned Austudy, $90 a fortnight is a large amount of to put these changes into place at the begin- money. I am sure many senators would be a ning of the next academic year. Maybe, when little upset if they lost about a quarter of their the minister is on her feet, she could also income with the stroke of a pen, as seems to explain what the great necessity is for putting be occurring here. this into place in the middle of the year. Apparently, this will be a fairly minor cost Certainly, I personally cannot see any great saving of $2.35 million a year. I encourage benefit that is gained. I believe that a lot of the government to review their position on young people will find this change in the this particular matter and, if possible, an- middle of the year very difficult. nounce to the Senate that they will not be Another negative that arises from this proceeding with this fairly retrograde step in legislation is the fact that those students who relation to this group of people who live at are over 25 will not be receiving rental home and are over the age of 25. assistance. I do not know whether the govern- Another major concern with the way the ment believes that those over 25 suddenly do bill is being implemented is the fact that it not need accommodation or, alternatively, that comes into effect on 1 July this year. I can once you reach 25 you have access to some understand that the minister feels some pres- cheaper form of accommodation that those sure from the Minister for Finance and Ad- under 25 do not have. But this does not seem ministration to put in place the government’s to me to be the case. It certainly seems unfair budget savings, but it seems to me rather not to allow one group of people to have extraordinary to put a change in place right in access to rent assistance just because they the middle of the academic year. reach the age of 25 years, even though their Young people have made decisions about personal circumstances and, I suppose, their their future, about whether they should be financial circumstances have not really studying or whether they should be seeking changed. work, based on the circumstances that existed There is one other matter that I would like at the beginning of the academic year—for to raise that is of concern in the bill, though most people, I suppose, that is early February. I hope it will be remedied, and that is that And then, suddenly, along comes the coalition much of the detail of the student loan government which makes a decision to review scheme—this is set out in the Student and all the regulations that affect them, and to put Youth Assistance Act—are missing from this this into place on 1 July this year. I really bill entirely. I do understand that this bill believe that the government should have some gives the power to the government to estab- serious thought about this. Is it really fair to lish the scheme and I think it was originally change the rules and regulations halfway suggested that the vast bulk of the scheme through the academic year? It may well mean would be set out in regulations to be dealt 2614 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 with at some later stage. But I have to say used for, and that is for their support through- that there is a great deal of concern within the out the year. student population that, if it is to be done in There is somewhat of a concern in the shift that secondary way, some of the provisions from taxable income to gross income, as this could be changed to be less generous or, could reduce the entitlements of some stu- alternatively, the regulations in the lead-up to dents to what used to be called Austudy. I an election and post the budget could be lost. suppose, to some extent, we are prepared to It appears that Mr Howard is suggesting that wait and see on this issue. There may be this could be the last session. We obviously some minor losers—I hope not. But I hope do not have a lot of time to get legislation that some of the advantages of greater flexi- through. They are very concerned that, in fact, bility for students will offset some of the between now and the election this particular problems that are created by this change. group of regulations could be lost. The positive amendments are minor ones but I am sure they will be gratefully received We ask the minister to give an undertaking, by the students. They include an additional when she is on her feet, that the provisions three days payment in the changeover. I for the student loan scheme will be incorpo- suppose they could have one good weekend rated within the Social Security Act as soon before they lose it all. In fairness, I suppose as possible. We also ask her to give a com- this additional three days will be of some mitment as to a certain date when this might assistance. It is largely due to the fact that occur and an assurance that it will, in fact, there is a changeover in the cycle of payments take place before the election is held— between Austudy and social security pay- whenever that might be. Certainly, if in the ments. I suppose we should be grateful that lead-up to the election the student loans they have not made a decision to do the schemes were to be lost entirely, it would be reverse, which is to take three days from a great loss to a large number of students who students to make the cycles align. I am rely on it to assist them in getting through grateful that they have been given an addi- their education. tional three days. Personally, I still believe that this slight benefit does not offset the There are some positive amendments. They disruption and difficulties created by introduc- are fairly minor in this bill and I really feel, ing the scheme in the middle of the year, but in fairness, I should mention them. I am sure I suppose it would have been worse if they that any that I miss, the minister will take had lost some money. great pains to draw the chamber’s attention to. One of them is that there has been a fairly There is also the introduction of a liquid major change for assessing income for stu- assets test for students. I understand that there dents—from an annual to a fortnightly esti- is a broadening of the exemptions for the mate. That is a positive thing, because for liquid assets test to allow for the educational many students—with the ups and downs of expenses that relate to students. This is a their income over the year—it is very hard to matter that I would like to clarify in the estimate accurately what their annual income committee stage. might be. In fact, this often leads to overpay- Overall, the opposition is still concerned ments, which means that students have a about some of the negative aspects of this difficult time having to repay the money. bill. We are concerned about the fact that the Alternatively, they find at the end they have whole package of bills is stated by the overestimated and they get the money back. government to encourage young people back But they will have suffered a great deal of to education but at the same time this govern- financial distress throughout the year and, ment is slashing and burning in terms of its even though that might give them a little funding of education. We are fearful that the bonanza at the end of the year, it probably additional strain put on schools and other would have been nice for them to be able to educational institutions may hurt those people access that money for what it was meant to be being educated now. (Time expired) Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2615

Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) However, if a young person is classified as (9.54 a.m.)—Before I begin to address some independent they are exempt from the parent- of the problems associated with this conse- al means test. The government set the age of quential bill, I would like to place on the independence at 21 for the young unemployed record some comments related to the passage and at 25 for full-time students. The Greens of the original youth allowance bill in March (WA) moved amendments to have the age of of this year. On behalf of the Greens (WA) I independence set at 18 for both students and moved 56 amendments to the youth allowance the unemployed. The Greens (WA) also legislation in March in an attempt to curtail supported amendments by the Australian many of the harsh measures contained in the Greens and the Democrats to have the age of bill. Unfortunately, the Senate caved in to independence set at 21 for students and 18 for government threats to shelve the entire youth the young unemployed. Unfortunately, all age allowance scheme if they did not get their of independence amendments were defeated. way, and many of the important, common- It is worth noting that while the ALP support- sense amendments proposed by the Greens ed the age of independence being 18 for and the Democrats were rejected. I hope we young unemployed, they did not support the will not see a repeat of that situation with this age of independence for students being bill. The job of the Senate is to make amend- lowered from 25, contrary to their policy ments to legislation to effect benefits to the when in government. Australian community or to prevent harm— The parental income free area basically sets not to be a rubber stamp for unjust govern- the level at which parents’ income starts to ment changes when they threaten the Senate affect the youth allowance payments of a with double dissolution triggers. young person. This level was set at $23,400 I will now go over some of fee key areas in per annum for both parents. The Greens (WA) the March debate. I am sure many of the moved amendments to set this amount to the issues raised will come back before this average weekly ordinary time earnings figure chamber when they start to impact upon the of approximately $36,000 per annum. Unfor- community. To start on a brighter note, tunately, that amendment was defeated by the government plans to force 16- and 17-year- government and Senator Harradine. olds to be engaged in education in order to Rent assistance for students was the big receive youth allowance were changed. The ‘carrot’ in the youth allowance package. Greens (WA) were successful in moving an Whenever the Greens (WA) spoke to the amendment which allowed 16- and 17-year- government about changes to the bill, we olds to undertake employment case manage- were told that any extra cost incurred by our ment as an alternative to full-time study. suggested changes would prevent rent assist- Thankfully, this change was accepted by the ance being paid to students. In other words, House of Representatives, despite the this measure was included to play one group government’s opposition to it in the Senate. of young people off against another. The The Greens (WA) were also successful with young people did not fall for it, however. amendments which allowed de facto couples In any case, the youth allowance rent with a relationship of 12 months to qualify as assistance provisions remained restrictive for a youth allowance couple, improved notifica- students. Some will not receive it because tion requirements, and ameliorated criteria they are not paying enough rent—a person’s relating to independence as a self-supporting rent has to amount to 28 per cent of their person. maximum allowance before it can be paid. Now for the bad news. In relation to the Others will not receive it because it is being age of independence, one of the key aspects paid only to those who need to live away of the youth allowance is the parental means from home, as opposed to those who choose test. At least 45,000 young people will have to live away from home—or find it difficult their payments reduced or abolished due to to prove under the government’s restrictive the amount of money their parents earn. category. Of those who are left, many will 2616 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 receive only two-thirds of the maximum a trade union involved in industrial action because they will be sharing a house. The which leads to the person’s unemployment. Greens (WA) and other parties moved amend- Doesn’t that sound familiar! Unfortunately, ments to remove those restrictions, but unfor- this amendment was defeated by the govern- tunately they were defeated by the govern- ment, Senator Harradine and—wait for it—the ment and Senator Harradine. ALP. On the youth allowance activity agreement, I now turn my attention to some of the the Greens (WA) amendment sought to changes proposed in this bill and foreshadow exempt full-time students from the possibility some of the vital amendments which the of having to enter into a youth allowance Greens (WA) will be moving. First of all, rent activity agreement or lose their benefit. This assistance for students over 25. When the was defeated by the government, Senator proposed changes to payments for students Harradine and the ALP. It means that the under the youth allowance bill were debated department could require a student to perform earlier this year, the big carrot was the long a range of activities if, for example, the overdue payment of rent assistance to full- secretary of the department considered that time students. While the Greens did not agree the full-time student was not performing with many of the regressive changes which satisfactorily in their course. were traded off for the provision of student And we have the work for the dole, of rent assistance, we did welcome this long course. The Greens (WA) moved amendments overdue change. to remove provisions which allow for the Predictably, the government trumpeted the young unemployed to be forced into a work introduction of student rent assistance as for the dole program or lose their benefit reflective of their commitment to students and under the youth allowance legislation. Unfor- delivery of their promises made in opposition. tunately, this amendment was defeated by the All those who criticised the youth allowance government, Senator Harradine and the ALP. package were chided by Senator Newman for And just look at the budget and see what the ignoring the provision of rent assistance. impacts are this time. Organisations such as the National Union of The government’s youth allowance scheme Students and APAC were derided for not retains the controversial actual means test that embracing the youth allowance changes on exists under Austudy. However, it leaves most the basis of the provision of rent assistance to of the detail on how the actual means test students. In fact, one could say that it was one operates to regulations and guidelines. The of Senator Newman’s favourite sales pitches ability for the department and the minister to when selling the youth allowance package to botch these regulations has been dramatically the young people of Australia. evidenced during the last two years with the It seems proven that this so-called commit- mishandling of the actual means test, leading ment to students receiving rent assistance was to the downfall of Senator Vanstone and nothing more than a trade-off for the regres- continuing problems for previously self- sive changes in the last youth allowance bill. employed independent students caught by the But, really, where is the real commitment to test. The Greens (WA), the Democrats and the providing rent assistance for students? In this ALP all moved amendments that the actual bill, all students who happen to begin their means test be in the legislation in full or not studies after the age of 25 will be ineligible at all. Unfortunately, they were all defeated for rent assistance. Perhaps they do not have by the government and Senator Harradine. to pay rent if they are over 25. On the industrial action exclusion, the We will have a ridiculous situation in which Greens (WA) moved to amend sections which a person who begins study when aged 24 prevent youth allowance being paid to people years and 11 months—and therefore receiving who are unemployed due to industrial action. youth allowance—will be entitled to rent The provisions even prevent a person receiv- assistance whereas someone who begins study ing youth allowance if they are a member of at 25 years and one month—and therefore Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2617 receiving the new Austudy payment contained which will cause confusion, anxiety and real in this consequential bill—will not be entitled financial hardship. This is what you get for to rent assistance. All in all, there will be being a full-time mature age student who has 35,000 people around Australia who will be taken up the government call to educate discriminated against by virtue of the fact that yourself and contribute to your community. they have been unable to begin study until the Even this government recognises that those age of 25. over 25 are financially independent from their We know how quickly things are changing. parents. The Greens (WA) argued vigorously We know how the blame for unemployment during the debate on the youth allowance bill is being put on the individual—the need to that those people should be considered inde- keep up, the need to be relevant—and now pendent at 18 for the purposes of student the government may be punishing people for assistance—as they are under just about every the situation they are in. How absolutely other law in society. Nevertheless, even using ridiculous; how utterly insensitive; how the government’s definition of independence manifestly inequitable. at age 25, the logic of applying a different I assure all senators in this place that this rate of payment to those who happen to live issue will haunt those who do not support at home is entirely inconsistent. such a basic point of equity. I assure you that Let us look at who we are considering a situation in which students of the same age, whacking with this 33 per cent reduction in studying the same course, and in exactly the payment. Many of these people will be in a same financial situation, receive benefits situation where their parents are elderly— which differ by up to $75 per fortnight will perhaps on an aged pension or living on be an ongoing source of justifiable anger, superannuation payments. Remember that this frustration and disillusionment. Perhaps we is the government that says that $60,000 or can pass a law which says that students are $65,000 for a couple is okay to qualify for a not permitted to talk about their allowances. health card. So while it is concentrating on I urge senators to support the Greens (WA) blaming and punishing students and young amendment to allow all students access to rent people, the government is looking at increas- assistance if they need it. After all, isn’t ing its own votes in this forthcoming election. consistency what the whole youth allowance If a student’s parents are elderly, perhaps on package is supposed to be about? an age pension or living on superannuation Currently there are about 1,000 students payments, what sense is there in reducing the aged over 25 who live with their parents. The amount they can contribute to the family current Austudy system, quite sensibly, makes home? Does this government really want to no demarcation between over 25s living away force students over 25 out of the family home from home and those remaining at home. The in a situation where they are assisting their current maximum rate for these students, aged parents? Perhaps Senator Newman wants provided they are not long-term income these 25-, 30-, or 40-year-olds to be going cap support students—in which case they receive in hand to their 55-, 60-, 70- or 80-year-old more—is $265.39. However, under the provi- parents for some pocket money as of 1 July. sions of this consequential bill, from 1 July The whole idea is rather offensive and cruel, their payment will be reduced to $174.80 to say the least. literally overnight. The Greens (WA) will be moving amend- Most of these people have no idea that such ments to remove the artificial distinctions in a change is coming. In fact no-one apart from both this bill and in the yet to be proclaimed a few people in the Department of Social youth allowance bill between over-25s living Security knew this was coming until March at home and those living away from home. this year. So these people who have been We also have a ‘break glass in case of tightly budgeting on their existing meagre emergency’ grandfathering amendment which, payments are about to be kicked in the teeth in the extraordinary circumstance that the with a reduction of about $90 per fortnight, situation for students aged 25 and over is not 2618 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 returned to normal, means that at least those their extra income when they first receive who are currently in receipt of Austudy will youth allowance or Austudy. For example, a retain a maximum rate of $265.50 a fortnight person who has been receiving Austudy this for the remainder of their course. year will be transferred to the new payment Under the liquid assets test, students can be system on 1 July. If they had planned, say, to excluded from receiving youth allowance or pick fruit for three weeks during their July Austudy payments for up to 13 weeks if they break, they would be expecting to be able to have more than $2,500 in the bank. In the earn up to $1,500 without affecting their previous youth allowance debate, the Greens Austudy payments, as was the case under the argued for the liquid assets test to be eased old system. for students, given that many people, especial- However, because the new student income ly those over 25, often save more than the bank has an opening balance of zero, it will limit to use for legitimate education expenses take nearly 12 weeks before this person has such as computer software, transport to enough credit in their student income bank to university and many other costs integral to prevent these earnings affecting their pay- pursuing their course of education. ments. In fact, in this entirely typical exam- The Greens (WA) felt that it would be ple, the person’s payments will cease alto- unfair for a student to be penalised for up to gether for a month. This is going to cause 13 weeks for being responsible enough to much distress for the hardworking students save money for education expenses not who have the initiative to find holiday work specifically covered in the current guidelines. in order to afford textbooks and other essen- Unfortunately, our amendment was defeated. tial costs—perhaps when the tyres blow on On this occasion, we are simply asking that their old car—in the second half of the year. the allowable deductions be placed in the In addition, as many students will be taking legislation rather than in the attached guide- exams and then be on holidays during the lines, for both youth allowance and Austudy introduction of the new system, the removal payments for over-25s, and that the deduc- of their payments will come as a complete tions specifically include computer software surprise. This situation will be ongoing for all and other matters necessary for a course of those who take up youth allowance or study as approved by the secretary. I look Austudy payments during a holiday period in forward to this amendment receiving govern- which they have the initiative to take on ment support, as was indicated to my office casual or one-off work opportunities. by Senator Newman’s staff. On 12 March 1998, during the debate on We stated in the last Senate debate on the Social Security Legislation Amendment youth allowance that the concept of the (Youth Allowance) Bill 1997, the Minister for student income bank is a good one as it Social Security (Senator Newman) said: allows students who typically earn their extra There are differences in this element between money in the holiday periods effectively to students and the young unemployed. Students have spread their earnings over the year without a much more constrained opportunity to take work running the risk of receiving overpayments. because of the nature of their studies and their time We support the idea of students receiving commitments. It is much more difficult for them to take part-time work during the year, but they can $230 per fortnight or earning credits up to a take it during semester breaks and the long break maximum $6,000 before their earnings begin during the summer. That is why we have tried to to affect their youth allowance or Austudy make special arrangements for students. payments. To put that in context, it shows the inability However, there is a potential glitch, both of the government to see that it could allow immediate and ongoing, which could under- up to $15 a week for people on youth allow- mine the effectiveness of the student income ance—mingy as that is. Clearly, in the exam- bank and cause unnecessary hardship. The ples I have given, the well-intentioned aims problem we have identified relates to those that the minister has expressed are not going who happen to earn a significant amount of to be achieved. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2619

The Greens (WA) have proposed an amend- Labor is also committed to abolishing up- ment which may serve to ease this problem front undergraduate fees—so proudly intro- by changing the opening credit balance in the duced by the Minister for Employment, student income bank to $2,000—hardly a Education, Training and Youth Affairs (Dr sovereign’s ransom—rather than zero. How- Kemp) in one of his regular ideological bouts ever, we would welcome any other amend- of zealotry against the public education ments from senators which address the rather system. Labor is determined to offer a better serious problem we have identified. It must way—to treat education spending as an also be said that this highlights a potential investment rather than a cost, to restore problem for all students who plan to earn a fairness and growth of post-secondary access, substantial amount of their $6,000 extra and to strengthen our society and its economy income in the first few months of the period through the higher education and TAFE in which they receive youth allowance or systems. Austudy. It seems that these people will, in In the original youth allowance legislation, fact, be worse off under the new student we have already witnessed how this govern- income bank than they are under the current ment is prepared to further burden the battling system. families of Australia with the responsibility Clearly, quite a bit of work has to be done for the income support of their unemployed before this package is ready to be unleashed young adult children aged 18 to 20. Never on the unsuspecting youth and student com- mind that this provision applies to families munity of Australia, therefore, I sincerely earning as little as $23,400. According to the hope that the government takes a cooperative coalition, these families are considered rela- approach during the committee stage of this tively well off and capable of fully supporting bill. their unemployed children. I do not think anybody would regard a family income of Senator GIBBS (Queensland) (10.13 $23,400 as relatively well off; I would con- a.m.)—In speaking to the Social Security sider them to be battling. For ideological and Legislation Amendment (Youth Allowance cost saving interests, the coalition are denying Consequential and Related Measures) Bill that young adults aged 18 to 20 are independ- 1998, which is a complementary bill to the ent and should not be forced under the impo- youth allowance bill which was passed by this sition of parental income assets and actual parliament earlier this year, I am unfortunate- means test requirements. ly reminded yet again of how the government At the same time, the coalition have failed treats education. Over the past two years, the to tackle the youth unemployment issue, with coalition has put education and training at the the rate well over half a percentage point top of its hit list. Australia now stands alone higher than when the coalition government amongst the developed nations of the world was elected—despite lower participation rates. as the only nation with an increasing ratio of This is a failure of the personal pledge made military to education spending. The Howard by the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) on government is the first in our history to scale election night that his highest priority was to back the level of public education, research make major inroads on youth unemployment. and training funding. Like that pledge, this bill continues the Already Labor has made clear it that it has coalition’s policy failure towards Australia’s a huge agenda for broadening educational young people. It continues to remove their opportunities. The Labor Party has historically sense of identity and independence and and will always continue to view education as replaces it with a mean-spirited, strict and the best investment in our nation’s future. rigid set of requirements before any income Labor is committed to regrowing the universi- assistance is forthcoming. ty and TAFE sectors, with the latter sector The Social Security Legislation Amend- alone having $240 million cut from it by the ment (Youth Allowance Consequential and coalition. Related Measures) Bill 1998 contains a large 2620 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 number of measures to transfer program down; for example, any personal savings in elements from DEETYA to the Department of their bank account. Social Security. It also creates a new Austudy Similarly, the income maintenance periods payment under the Social Security Act which will apply to those seeking support but who will replace the existing Austudy scheme for have received a prior termination payment, students over 25 who are not covered under lump sum leave payment or other leave the new youth allowance payment. payment prior to taking up study. This will Also contained in this bill are a series of act as a major disincentive to people to seek draconian measures such as activity tests, training and education opportunities. Already waiting periods and income maintenance these people are making a financially costly periods, which are new initiatives not found decision by leaving to work to pursue a study in the existing Austudy legislation. Their opposition. Why is the government providing existence is designed purely to hinder access a further barrier to their aspirations and to income support and save money for this preventing their ability to better their educa- government. tion achievements? Apart from these particularly mean-spirited As a result of this bill and earlier legisla- initiatives, there are a range of other measures tion, it is not difficult to identify why the in this bill which have previously never coalition will have cut $500 million to existed under Austudy legislation or are Austudy before the end of its first three years simply inconsistent with other initiatives the of government. In general, the rates and coalition have announced in other areas of conditions affecting former Austudy students welfare support. For instance, a non-payment under DEETYA will be significantly altered period exists where a newstart recipient who by this legislation. First, under section 569G has breached in any way the activity test of the bill, the secretary to the Department of carries over to Austudy the penalty provisions Social Security has the legal authority to incurred under newstart. This is coupled with make judgment on secondary students in a rate reduction period in that a person who receipt of Austudy. It is the secretary’s judg- has already had their payment suspended or ment as to whether a student is making cancelled has to—on reactivation of their ‘satisfactory progress’ through their secondary eligibility—be subject to a rate reduction studies. Under the current Austudy regula- period. This is a form of double punishment, tions, a student’s school had to be satisfied which is particularly unfair to those students that the student was doing sufficient work to who are unaware of their original error in the satisfy the test of being full time. It is diffi- first instance. cult to see why this change has been made as This bill also contains a lower rate of schools are generally in the best position to payment for those undertaking short-term make this judgment. It is to be hoped the studies. This is inconsistent with any existing departmental secretary does not exercise an Austudy requirements and it will lead to unrealistic expectation of ‘satisfactory greater inflexibility and fewer options for progress’. students in the non-university environment. In This bill also applies new terms which were particular, many students at various business never mentioned in the previous Austudy colleges and training academies doing short, legislation. Two in particular—the ‘waiting practical courses will be affected. period’ in proposed section 575 and ‘income One of the most glaring inconsistencies in maintenance period’ in proposed section this legislation with other welfare support 1067L-D6—are draconian measures aimed at measures is the existence of a lesser payment depriving students access to welfare support. rate category for students who are living at Waiting periods are an application of the home with their parents. Under the new liquid assets test waiting period and effective- arrangements for newstart allowance, a person ly will deny students access to support until aged 21 or more and living at home is paid all their existing liquid assets have been run the same as a person who is not living at Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2621 home. The existence of this living at home purposes and origins of many of these pay- provision in the new Austudy payment is ments. In the process, they are fundamentally purely a cost saving measure and makes a changing the nature of Australia’s social mockery of the coalition’s much lauded security system and denying many people the claims of consistency between welfare pay- principles of fairness and equity which have ments. been inherent in the system for the past half It is equalled in its money saved obsession a century. by the new student income arrangements. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Under these initiatives, a student’s entitlement tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian will be reduced by 50c for each dollar earned Democrats) (10.27 a.m.)—I rise on behalf of between $230 and $310 per fortnight and by the Australian Democrats to address the 70c for each dollar earned over $310. Further, Social Security Legislation Amendment a student will lose 70c of Austudy payment (Youth Allowance Consequential and Related for each dollar by which their spouse’s in- Measures) Bill 1998. Following on from some come exceeds the spouse free area. These of the comments of Senator Gibbs, I think we terms do not exist in the current Austudy all appreciate that there are aspects of this bill measures and they are therefore significantly that are in the interests of the nation—such as harsher than the current Austudy income the streamlining of payments—and at all provisions. stages the Democrats have been willing The coalition is sending a message to acknowledge those positive elements of the students who come from battling families and bill. At all stages during the debate on the who want to supplement their incomes while previous legislation and during this debate we studying to back off from seeking a part-time have also acknowledged that there are a job. The coalition is telling these people that number of hidden nasties and some not so part-time jobs in Australia can only be taken hidden nasties in this bill. by either the very poor or the sons and daugh- Reference has been made in previous ters of those parents who are already wealthy speeches in this debate in this place to the and who do not require welfare support. low threshold at which the parental means There will be a major proportion of the testing kicks in and the fact that it has always student population forced to make a decision been a cause for concern. Despite attempts by between accepting a part-time position and the Australian Democrats to amend that very regularly forfeiting part of their Austudy low threshold, we were unsuccessful. That because they have earned too much or decid- threshold remains at that incredibly low level ing to put their studies on hold. Unfortunate- of just over $23,000 per annum. That is ly, through financial pressures I believe many something about which we continue to object. will be forced to choose the latter option and Another aspect of the common youth risk being lost to the education sector indefi- allowance is the nature of payments to 16- nitely. and 17-year-olds who are not in some form of I call on the government to reconsider the employment, education and training. We have fine detail in some of these initiatives. When strongly objected to the fact that those 16- they do they will discover that several of their and 17-year-olds will, in most cases, receive initiatives are either unrealistically harsh or no benefits whatsoever. At all stages we have are inconsistent with other measures they have said that we are concerned about that. Not introduced. I accept that the creation of the only that, we are concerned that there are no youth allowance is necessarily a technical and employment opportunities or strategies being complex task as it represents a merger of created to deal with those 16- and 17-year- previous disparate income support payments. olds who, for whatever reason, may not be However, I believe the intention of the participating in the education, training or coalition has not just been to rationalise and employment sectors. streamline Australia’s system of income The other aspect that has been mentioned support payments but to re-align and alter the by both Senators Neal and Margetts is the age 2622 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 at which young people will be considered I note that only last night the Treasurer, Mr independent—that is, the age they will be Costello, was very keen to promote his budget considered adults for the purpose of receiving as one that would assist families and young the youth allowance. Again, the Democrats people. Already we have before us a measure tried very hard to ameliorate the worst aspects that hits hardest at those two very groups. I of this bill. In particular, we tried to decrease should note that we can only begin to antici- the age at which young people were eligible pate some of the economic and social hard- for the independent rate of the youth allow- ships that will be wrought on families as a ance—in the case of young unemployed consequence of legislation such as the in- people to 18. I concur with Senator Neal that creased economic burdens for families where it is outrageous that young people should be parents are going to be responsible, financial- considered dependent upon their families up ly at least, for their children who are students to the age of 21 if they are unemployed and, up to the age of 25. similarly, up to age of 25—an absolutely The government claims that these incentives concocted notion of independence—if they or proposals have been introduced to encour- are in some form of education and training. age young people to participate and stay Unfortunately, the attempts by the Demo- longer in the education and training sectors. crats, with the support of the Greens (WA), I think many of those young people who are to amend both those aspects of the bill but in affected by this legislation in one way or the particular the latter, the age of independence other will be asking the government why it for a student, were defeated. The latter was has not put as much effort into job creation as defeated with the support of the Australian perhaps some of the efforts it has put into Labor Party. Again we put on record our scapegoating young people with schemes such concern that young people and students were as work for the dole, dob in a dole bludger or not supported by the opposition in relation to employer contact units, which overlook some the age of independence. of the extensive voluntary work that many young people do. I think we have seen a The bill before us does a number of things, distinct lack of job creation measures for including establishing a new Austudy pay- young people in this budget, let alone some ment for students who are 25 and over. I form of assistance to the education and understand that some market research has training spheres, which are apparently so gone into determining the best name and way important to this government that it would of promoting the new Austudy payment. The want young people to stay in them for longer. bill also establishes a pensioner education I note, to follow on from Senator Margetts’s supplement, PES, as currently exists, for comments, that the work for the dole scheme common youth allowance, Austudy and PES was extended in last night’s budget to cater recipients, and provides the details of the for another 25,000 young people. I still put to supplement loan scheme for the youth allow- the government: what jobs will those young ance and the Austudy payment. people occupy when they have finished their work for the dole? Even if they do take up We have said many times that we believe the common youth allowance and education the common youth allowance, despite some and training places, what job opportunities positive elements, will hit hardest at those will be available to those young people when young people who are on a lower socioecono- they have finished? mic scale—from lower paid and middle income families. They are the ones we antici- Senator Crane—More than they had pate will lose most under this legislation. The before! Democrats believe that the decisions made by Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I will take this government in relation to the common that interjection, if you are not careful, Sena- youth allowance have overlooked many of the tor Crane. If you can point out one job cre- economic and social realities of family life ation strategy in last night’s budget I will take today. my hat off to you. No-one disputes the notion Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2623 that young people staying in education and begin their study or qualify for benefits due training is not bad; no-one suggests that it is to their age related independent status. not a good thing—of course it is. We believe The Democrats will seek to delete the at- very much that education and training and home rate for a single person over the age of access to knowledge and skill development is 25 and the living with a parent category at the one way of ensuring that we have an enlight- rate of $174.80 per fortnight, as opposed to ened work force and one that is competitive. what was $265.50 per fortnight. Under this That is the way job opportunities of the future rate a single mature adult living with their will be occupied by young Australians, and parent for whatever reason—for safety, indeed older Australians, if they have a sound security, or to provide a small amount of skills base and understanding of technology care—will not be treated as an independent and changes. However, you cannot suggest adult, and we have a problem with that. Not that young people should stay in education content with treating young Australians as and training longer without providing suffi- children up until their 25th birthday— cient and adequate resourcing of those sectors, certainly in the case of young students—this such as technical and further education, higher government is prepared to treat anyone who education and, of course, schools. But, as continues to live in the family home as opposed to introducing incentives, certainly dependent. We have a major concern with last night’s budget did nothing to change the that and we will also seek to amend it in a situation. We have seen only barriers put up way that Senator Margetts has indicated. in front of younger, and indeed older Austral- ians, in relation to access to education and The Democrats will also seek an extension training. The barriers are the fees and charges of the minimum time for students with an that are obvious disincentives, as well as intellectual or physical disability. Twenty-five financial assistance packages that remain per cent of concessional load students should below the poverty line. be given more time than simply twice the normal full time to complete their course. The government—and it may want to clarify If this government really wanted to fulfil its this—expects those students to transfer to election promises to give hope to young disability support payments, which to me Australians it would be giving some realistic would defeat the very purpose of the education and training opportunities. It would government’s claim that it is trying to stream- not be putting up fees and charges and other line and ensure there is a social security barriers to education, at whatever level. It system which is more seamless. would provide young people with realistic and adequate levels of income support, not income This bill changes the way in which the like Austudy or the common youth allowance eligibility of a student over 25 for an Austudy which, at its maximum rate, is only 60 per payment is assessed by changing this assess- cent of the poverty line. It would fulfil what ment from taxable to gross income and so it likes to refer to as mutual obligation. We removing the need for the rather controversial certainly heard a lot from the government last actual means test. The Democrats support this. night about that. However, there is the concern currently that students will not be able to claim certain self- In relation to this bill, the Democrats will education expenses due to recent rulings. The seek to amend various parts of it with the Democrats do believe that these should be tax introduction of a rent assistance component deductible. I acknowledge that this should be for Austudy payment. Under the provisions of viewed perhaps as a separate issue and I the bill, rent assistance will be made available understand that it is currently the subject of to students who are eligible and receive the an ATO draft ruling. We do call for self- youth allowance. That is under the social education expenses to be made tax deductible. security youth allowance legislation. This bill The Democrats’ second reading amend- does not make comparable provisions for ment to this bill acknowledges the fact that students who are 25 years or over when they we have had substandard student financial 2624 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 assistance provided by this government, or whether it is Howard, have stood back and certainly that this government has perpetuated effectively condemned hundreds of thousands an inadequate system of student assistance of students to poverty as a result of the that has previously existed. The Democrats meagre benefits that they have been able to have always complained about the fact that access. We will be supporting the changes to the Austudy scheme has been below the rent assistance in line with the request by the poverty line. This bill does nothing to change National Union of Students. We urge all that. I move: parties, especially the opposition, to support At the end of the motion, add: ", but the Senate those amendments regarding rent assistance. condemns the Howard Government’s perpetuation Senator CARR (Victoria) (10.41 a.m.)—In of a student allowance which is not a living allowance and is of the view that rent assistance speaking to the Social Security Legislation should now be, and should always have been, made Amendment (Youth Allowance Consequential accessible to Austudy recipients". and Related Measures) Bill, I pick up the The Melbourne Economic and Social Re- Democrats’ proposition that the Labor Party search Institute sets the poverty line for ought to be condemned for its record on December 1997 for a single person, and this student assistance when it was in government. includes housing, at $200.37 per week. The Once again we hear from the Democrats a new Austudy payment is set at a maximum sanctimonious, turgid response which is basic rate of $265.50 per fortnight, or $132.75 completely irrelevant to the facts, as of course per week. The at-home rate is set at $247.80 is well-known to this parliament. There was per fortnight, or $123.90 per week. In Decem- a 164 per cent increase in student income ber 1997 the unemployment benefit was support measures under the Labor govern- $160.75 per week. The rent assistance avail- ment, which is an historic all-time high. We able to these people was averaged by the hear from the Democrats this hypocritical Melbourne Economic and Social Research response where they seek to distance them- Institute at $37.40. That brings the total selves from what I believe to be quite extra- benefits available to an unemployed adult to ordinary achievements of the Labor govern- $198.15, and that is just $2.22 shy of the ment in higher education. poverty line. I should acknowledge that It is important to remind the Senate that pensioners are indeed above the poverty line. between 1983 and 1995 there was a 73 per Without the rent assistance available to the cent increase in the number of students in unemployed or even to a common youth higher education. The number of students allowance student, the recipients of the new commencing higher education increased by 91 Austudy payments will be a lot more than per cent over that period. University participa- simply $2 shy of the poverty line. tion rates increased from 37 per thousand in The Democrats have put on record, a the 17- to 64-year-old population cohort in number of times now, our concern with the 1984 to 51 per thousand in 1994. Those are common youth allowance scheme. We made a few figures that I have attempts in the last discussion on this legisla- available. While those figures are a little tion to alleviate some of the worst aspects of dated, it does indicate to me that the Labor the bill. We will be doing the same specifical- Party’s record in higher education is one that ly in relation to the rent assistance issue we ought to be rightly proud of. I quite during the committee stage of this bill. We frankly find it extraordinary that the Demo- believe very strongly that this government crats persist in putting these positions which and, indeed, former governments of a Labor are completely at odds with the facts. There persuasion, stand condemned on the issue of are a whole series of indices which highlight student assistance. that the Labor Party has a very good record We acknowledge the words of former Prime when it comes to the question of higher Minister Bob Hawke. He may have promised education in this country. that no child need live in poverty, yet he and In terms of this bill, what you have is a bill his successors, whether it is Keating or being introduced to complete the administra- Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2625 tive arrangements for the introduction of the additional income be reduced at the 50c rate. common youth allowance. It establishes After that, the reduction will be 70c in the Austudy payments within the Social Security dollar. I seek leave to incorporate into Hans- Act and provides income support for students ard tables which outline the figures as the commencing study at the age of 25 or over. Labor Party has calculated them. This bill is about administrative arrangements, but if it were merely about administrative The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT arrangements one could expect that the impact (Senator Hogg)—Is leave granted? on students would be negligible. Of course Senator Newman—Leave will not be the facts are somewhat different. What you withheld, but I did ask Senator Carr to do me will see as a result of these changes is that the courtesy of giving me a copy. That was many students will be significantly worse off. an hour ago, and I think it is very strange that In moving students from the education he did not observe the courtesy and honour portfolio to the social security portfolio, the his acknowledgment that he would do that. government is subjecting those students to a These are tables of figures produced by the harsher income test which will leave some of ALP. There is no other certification on them them $62 a fortnight worse off. Currently, as to where they come from. It is not the way students can earn $6,000 of personal income this chamber operates. I find it unacceptable, before their Austudy entitlement is reduced. and he deserves a reprimand. After that, their entitlement declines by 50c Leave granted. for each dollar of additional income. This bill proposes that only the first $80 a fortnight of The tables read as follows—

Social Security Legislation Amendment (Youth Allowance Consequential and Related Measures) Bill 1998 Estimated impact of changes to income tests/new tapering arrangements Independent students Student Income Current F/N rate Proposed F/N rate Loss $pa $ $ $ 6,000 265 265 - 9,000 207 200 7 10,000 188 173 15 11,000 169 146 23 12,000 150 119 31 13,000 131 92 39 14,000 111 65 46 2626 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Independent students Student Income Current F/N rate Proposed F/N rate Loss $pa $ $ $ 15,000 92 38 54 16,000 73 11 62

Current cut-off of entitlement occurs at income of $17,839 Cut-off under proposed arrangements: below $16,500

Independent students with assessable partner (no child) Partner income Current F/N rate Proposed F/N rate Loss $pa $ $ $ 14,750 265 265 - 16,000 241 232 9 17,000 222 205 17 18,000 203 178 25 19,000 183 151 32 21,000 145 97 48 23,000 107 43 64 25,000 68 - 68 Current cut-off of entitlement occurs at partner income of $26,589 Cut-off under proposed arrangements: below $25,000 Note: figures are approximate

Senator CARR—I thank the Minister for (Senator Newman) was advised that there Social Security for granting that leave. She were serious problems emerging with the will notice that the tables highlight that, for youth allowance highlighting serious com- many students of independent status, the loss munity concerns on a range of issues. It was, in income as a result of the government’s of course, pointed out to the minister that: measures ranges, on our estimates, from $7 . . . welfare groups such as ACOSS and Youth for those with a student income of $9,000 Action groups such as NUS— through to $62 for those with a student income of $16,000. Similar measures will and others— apply to the income of partners of Austudy have expressed their opposition to parts of the recipients. Students with an assessable partner initiative. However, opposition has also come from and no child will lose some $68 a fortnight if church groups and organisations with religious affiliations such as Centacare. Vocal opposition their partner earns $25,000 a year. These are from religious groups are a concern for the success- not very large sums of money in terms of ful introduction of this initiative as they will have income per annum, but they are considerable credibility with middle Australia as well as those sums of money per fortnight, if you are a families affected by the Parental Income Test. student trying to make ends meet on these As we understand, Ms Wheatley from the very low levels of payment. It is these very youth and student communication team in the simple and easy to demonstrate measures that Department of Social Security argued to the do disadvantage students so dramatically that minister that: the government is, of course, highly conscious of. We can expect more vocal opposition from families after July 1 when families of young unemployed In a briefing paper produced on 25 March people start to feel the effect of the Parental 1998 entitled ‘Youth allowance media Income Test. We can expect disaffected families to strategy’, the Minister for Social Security air their grievances through the media. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2627

She went on to list a range of concerns that trick that we have seen put into effect so were being highlighted by the department, many times. No doubt there is a whole string including the fact that unemployed persons of people out there somewhere being organ- over 18 will be financially dependent on their ised by the department to ring into radio families until they are 21. She expressed the stations right now to make sure that the concern that the youth allowance will cause talkback programs are well seeded with the more family disputes and encourage family particular devious thoughts of this govern- breakdown. The view was expressed that the ment. I have no doubt that we are seeing a youth allowance will cause young people to great fertilisation of the public mood in this leave home and leave the security of family country to ensure that there is appropriate support, that it will cause more youth home- understanding of the actions this government lessness, and that $23,000 is not a lot of is taking, which in fact leave 45,000 people money before the youth allowance starts to worse off as a result. cut out because of the parental income test. There are measures outlined in this briefing These are measures that have not picked up paper to the minister which highlight that this the questions that have been raised within this government is seeking to produce publicity particular bill. Ms Wheatley’s advice to the products and to distribute information regard- minister failed to highlight the number of ing the youth allowance to customers. This other issues of great concern to the Australian will be outlined in an action plan, as advised public, including the way in which these in the various sections of this document. The measures are being introduced without sup- measures include: porting measures to ensure that people have Identify geographical hotspots of young unem- adequate resources when they return to educa- ployed people and provide extra assistance to tion, be it at school, TAFE college or univer- Customer Service Officers in these areas. sity. Resourcing to schools is some $100 Utilise Business Television to broadcast to com- million short as a consequence of the various munity groups and regional media. measures this government has taken to re- Develop a Youth Allowance web site... move funding from the education system, And so it goes on. What they did was develop particularly the public education system, of storylines for various TV programs to ensure this country. Of course, these are desperately the right spin was being put on these draconi- needed moneys and desperately needed an measures which are doing nothing to assist resources to cope with the influx of students young unemployed persons. For that matter, that will follow the introduction of these by this government’s own admission, they are measures. doing nothing to ensure there is a much The advice to the minister from Ms deeper spread of educational opportunities in Wheatley failed to point out that students will this country. have to be dependent upon their families for What we see in this government’s proposals support up to the age of 25. This document is the introduction of an at-home rate for also highlights the fact that the government students 25 years and over living at home. proposed a series of deceptive media strat- This would mean a rate reduction of some egies aimed at trying to persuade people that $90 a fortnight for those on the maximum the actions it was taking were in fact different rate. This decision has been made on the from the measures actually proposed within extraordinary assumption that students in their these bills. late twenties or older and living at home are automatically receiving a substantial level of It is suggested that there would be provided support from their parents. ‘a dedicated officer to monitor media and advise the Minister’s Office of appropriate Senator Conroy—You can earn $40,000 a responses.’ That is, the old propaganda tools year and get a seniors card. would be provided to the minister, such as Senator CARR—That is the whole issue liaising with program producers and writing summed up very nicely, Senator Conroy. letters to the editor—that old manipulation What we have here is a government that 2628 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 works on the assumption that all the people effect of particular measures that are being in this country are nice, comfortable and introduced by this government. What we have middle class and that all the people can afford are changed circumstances being introduced to support their kids, irrespective of their in the middle of an academic year, so pay- desires or aspirations. It is an assumption ments will be made on a different basis to based upon this retrospective view of Austral- what they were at the beginning of the aca- ian society that sees everyone in the ‘Hya- demic year. cinth set’ that we so often see expressed by What we are also concerned about is the this minister. fact that rent assistance will not be available Senator Conroy—Do you think Mr Bucket to older students, as it will be to those receiv- is eligible for a seniors card? ing the youth allowance. This decision of the Senator CARR—Perhaps we see the government is totally unjustified and implies Keeping Up Appearances style of this govern- that somehow, on turning 25, students no ment reflected in this legislation. Quite clear- longer need a roof over their heads. Other ly, the ideological underpinning of this measures in the bill, such as the harsher government’s actions is to try to force the income tapering arrangements, are defended parents of this country to support their adult by the government representatives as being children at school, irrespective of whether necessary because they are in line with what they have the resources to do so. It is funda- is happening under the youth allowance and mentally unfair and unjust. with other measures in the Social Security Act. Here we see again the inconsistent What is unreasonable is demonstrated again approach to the issue of consistency across and again by this government’s actions with the Social Security Act. Keeping measures regard to providing support to Australians to consistent seems to no longer apply, and ensure they get the most out of our public failure to support older students in this way institutions and to ensure they are able to shows the shallowness of the government’s fulfil their total potential to contribute to our professed commitment to help younger people society. This is a measure, yet again, that will complete their education. restrict access to publicly supported institu- tions like our education institutions. It is quite What has to be understood is that these an extraordinary proposition, as Senator Neal measures are being introduced against the pointed out, to suggest that elderly parents backdrop of some $514 million being taken struggling to find their way in terms of out of student support measures. These are nursing home fees will still be expected to measures that go to questions such as the support their adult children in study. cessation of the school incidentals allowance We understand that, as a result of the for secondary students, the reduction in the pressure being applied by the ALP, the maximum rent assistance payable to singles government is not proceeding with the intro- in shared accommodation, the introduction of duction of a particularly harsh measure which a two-year waiting period for students newly would have seen up to $45 a week taken out arrived from overseas, the tightening of the of the at-home rate payments currently being Austudy actual means test, the raising of the made to some students. Nevertheless, the cuts age of independence, and the changes to the to some students’ payments due to the new range of fringe benefits measures taken into income test will be introduced and they will account with other family payments and be introduced in the middle of an academic child-care assistance. What we have is a year. As Senator Neal pointed out, these whole raft of measures which actually reduce measures seem to reflect some of the prob- assistance to students, and these measures lems with having a social security measure have to be seen in that context. being taken on what is essentially an educa- Finally, I would like to draw attention to tional program. There is some difficulty here, the important omission from the bill in regard as I see it, in getting social security payments to the financial supplement loan scheme, measures to take into account the educational which was set up by the Labor government in Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2629

1993. Under this scheme, students could earn measure predicated on an assumption that the $2 on a loan for every $1 of Austudy entitle- government does not have a responsibility to ment up to a maximum of $3,500. Repay- support young people, to ensure that they are ments were not required for five years and fully participating in our society and are fully only then if the recipient’s level of income capable of enjoying the full benefits of public reached average weekly earnings. In 1996, institutions and of making a full contribution some 68,000 students had taken advantage of in return to this society. For that this govern- these measures. ment ought to be condemned. I have no doubt The full details of the scheme will be set that, in the fullness of time, these issues will out in the Student and Youth Assistance become apparent. The issues that Ms Amendment Bill that is to come before the Wheatley drew to the minister’s attention will Senate, yet this bill provides only that a be ringing in the minister’s ear—not only student financial supplement scheme be those issues, but the many other issues that established and no details are provided in this Ms Wheatley has neglected to point out, piece of legislation. We are told that these are simply because I do not think that the officer matters that will be dealt with by regulation concerned, understandably, had the full and that the department has run out of time to experience of the range of issues, particularly get the details right in terms of introducing on the educational front, that are quite appar- similar measures in this bill. To me, that is ent to all those with eyes to see. not good enough. I can only suggest that that Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister is because of the serious cutbacks to the for Social Security) (11.01 a.m.)—Goodness Department of Social Security, and I notice in me, wasn’t that a barrage! the current budget that the department’s Senator Carr—Perhaps you enjoyed it. running costs are to be reduced by a further 93 per cent. I can only suggest that this Senator NEWMAN—I did not enjoy it, government is not able to meet its require- really, and the reason I did not enjoy it is that ments to the parliament because of the reduc- it gives one a clearer understanding of why it tions in the Public Service. It seems to me to is important that there be a good, strong be an extraordinary proposition that we have information campaign to the young people of not got the details of these programs spelt out Australia and to their families as to the in legislation, yet we have a commitment positive purpose and the positive outcomes from the minister that, as soon as the depart- that will be achieved by the youth allowance ment has the time to do it, it will be done in reforms. If we were to leave the people of the future. Australia under the misapprehension of what has been going over the airwaves this morn- When we consider the overall impact of the ing, then they would have every reason to government’s common youth allowance—the think that this was something nasty in the extra burden it will place on parents of young woodshed. unemployed, the impact on schools of an Of course, it is nothing of the sort. It is additional 27,000 16- and 17-year-olds enter- over $200 million of extra expenditure. It is ing the system, the penalties it imposes on not a savings measure; it is an important students who work or whose partners work— social policy reform which is intended to we can see that the government is not serious make sure that young people do not see the about helping Australians complete their dole as an acceptable alternative to study. It education and move into jobs. is intended to make sure that those aged For me, the real issue here is that this under 18 do not go on the dole; that they go government is winding back the role of into some form of skills acquisition. Is the government. It is trying to withdraw support Labor Party suggesting that that is not a from young people in this country and aban- worthwhile and important national goal? I don its responsibility to those young people. would think not. But from the noise we have It is a measure which must have long-term just heard, you would assume that there was detrimental impacts for this country. It is a something dreadful about requiring under 18- 2630 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 year-olds to be getting the skills which will skills; they have a chance of getting an actually allow them to get jobs. education. One of the most important initiatives that I noticed when Senator Carr was giving us my colleague the Minister for Employment, the benefit of his wisdom a few minutes ago Education, Training and Youth Affairs, Dr that he tended to focus on those going into Kemp, has been pursuing in his portfolio is tertiary education. Let me remind the Senate that of trying to make sure that young people that one of the big problems this country in Australia are not illiterate and innumerate. faces now is because the previous government Under the previous government, we found focused on that fortunate 30 per cent who did that that was all too often the case, so that go on to tertiary education and ignored the 70 people queuing up at Social Security in per cent who do not. As a result, there are not unacceptable numbers are illiterate. What sufficient vocational education opportunities chance do they have of getting a job in or traineeships. today’s society when unskilled jobs have Senator Carr—So why have you cut the disappeared under the previous government TAFE program? and around the world? Consequently, if the young people of Australia are to have any Senator NEWMAN—The new apprentice- hope of getting jobs, they should acquire ships introduced by Dr Kemp all will go a skills. They should be encouraged to be long way towards improving the job prospects studying and getting into training rather than of young Australians. So don’t bellow at me, being on the dole. Senator Carr. Senator Carr—Why don’t you provide the I want to address one issue which Senator money to run the schools? You took $4 Carr was very keen to get on the record—the billion out of education. issue of the personal income test for Austudy Senator NEWMAN—Under your govern- payment. What is not recognised is that the ment, the Labor government, the encourage- personal income test for Austudy payment is ment financially was for young people to be based on the allowance test used for all social on the dole because they were much better off security allowances, but it gives students on the dole than they were under Austudy. access to a higher income-free area and an Apart from Senator Carr, I have heard some income bank, as is the case under the youth acknowledgment this morning by senators in allowance. So it is better. Under the existing the debate that some very positive initiatives Austudy, by comparison—the one that Labor have been introduced as part of this youth administered—a student’s annual entitlement allowance reform. The rent assistance for the is worked out using a complex assessment very first time has to be one of the most process involving current and estimated future important initiatives. During the 13 years that taxable income. Anybody who has been Labor ran this country, they had every chance involved in Austudy applications would agree to increase the standard of living of students, with me; it is something that some senators and they did not. So we have had students who spoke previously have acknowledged. living in poverty and, worse still, we have Income above $6,000, under the current had young people in country areas not being arrangements, reduces a student’s fortnightly able to go away to get an education because entitlement by 50c in the dollar. If a student their low-income to middle-income parents has an increase in income part-way through could not afford to send them away. a year, their entitlement may have to be Now, we have the opportunity for families, recalculated and an overpayment raised. especially those with several children, to be Students may be assessed under the actual able to afford to send their young people means test if they or their partner are in a away for further education, largely because designated category. the availability of rent assistance of up to $75 By contrast, Austudy is a fortnightly pay- a fortnight per young person makes the ment responsive to a student’s circumstances difference. They have a chance of getting in that fortnight. I thank Senator Neal for her Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2631 recognition of what a major improvement this political purposes. It is not fair. It is clear that is. When a student has gross income above this government needs to have an important the income-free area of $230 in a fortnight, and effective information strategy to address their entitlement for that fortnight may be the disinformation and the fear campaign that reduced unless they have credits in the in- some people in the ALP think is going to get come bank. For income above the free area, them back into government. I think they are a 50c in the dollar reduction applies for the rumbled and the people of Australia now first $80 with a 70c in the dollar reduction know that fear campaigns from the ALP are applying to income that exceeds the free area not based on fact. by more than $80. The actual means test does Before I conclude, I would like to indicate not apply to Austudy payment. that we accept the ALP requests for amend- We heard a lot of noise from Senator Carr, ments. We undertake to put all the youth but the reality is that more than 98 per cent allowance related subordinate legislation in of the Austudy payment population aged 25 the Social Security Act as soon as drafting and over will not be affected by adopting the resources allow—it is not a question of delays allowance personal income test because the in the Department of Social Security; it is majority of those students have nil or very pressure on drafting resources—and we expect low personal income. Out of a population of that to be in the next sittings. As a govern- something like 43,000, we are talking about ment, we have undertaken to put the subordi- 860 who may be affected because they have nate legislation into the Social Security Act income over $6,000. From the noise we heard when the drafting is concluded and it comes from Senator Carr, you would have thought into the Senate. Of course, provided we win we were sending students into gross, grovel- the next election, that commitment will be ling poverty. You can see, Senator Carr, that honoured. I can only say, if an election were that angst was grossly overplayed. to take place in the intervening time and we were not the successful government, I would The positives of the Austudy payment be asking the Labor Party whether they were income test are that a student’s income in the prepared to put it in legislation. We also fortnight determines their rate of payment. accept the Greens amendments in relation to That eliminates the possibility of an Austudy the liquid assets waiting period and we accept style overpayment, which led to enormous amendment No. 1 from the Democrats. stress and strain and worry for students. It is a major improvement. Students who work Amendment not agreed to. over vacation periods can continue to be paid Original question resolved in the affirma- Austudy for periods in the year when they tive. have little or no other income. Under the Bill read a second time. previous Austudy they may have been exclud- ed from payment for the whole year because Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister of their income. This is a major improvement. for Social Security) (11.12 a.m.)—I move: We did not hear Senator Carr acknowledging That consideration of this bill in committee of any of that. the whole be made an order of the day for a later hour. Under Austudy payment, the impact of assessing a student’s gross income rather than Senator CARR (Victoria) (11.12 a.m.)—I taxable income is expected to be minor. The understand that amendments were placed majority of students, as I have said, have nil before the Table Office last night by the or very low income and because Austudy Labor opposition and that those amendments payment is a fortnightly payment, the impact were prepared. Subsequently, we were ad- is limited to the fortnight in which expendi- vised, contrary to our initial request, that they ture is made. It is a great shame that Senator would not be amendments but would have to Carr did not do his homework effectively and be requests and also that a running sheet was was prepared to dishonestly represent the not prepared. situation in order to frighten people for Question resolved in the affirmative. 2632 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

LEGISLATIVE INSTRUMENTS BILL legislative package or by exempting parliamentary 1996 [No. 2] disallowance of certain limited instruments. It is important to remember that the reforms Second Reading contained in this bill reflect a fundamental Debate resumed from 30 March, on motion commitment of the government to the legisla- by Senator Ellison: ture and the legislative process. These reforms may not excite the interest of the masses but That this bill be now read a second time. they should be welcomed by all parliamenta- upon which Senator Bolkus had moved by rians. The Legislative Instruments Bill signifi- way of amendment: cantly increases the power of the parliament At the end of the motion, add ", and that con- to scrutinise delegated legislation. However, sideration of the bill in committee of the whole be this does not, nor should it, extend to parlia- an order of the day for Tuesday, 7 April 1998". ment exercising executive power granted by (Quorum formed) parliamentary delegation. It is incredible that the Senate, the chamber most likely to benefit Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.15 from these changes, now appears to be ob- a.m.)—The amendment, if one looks at it, structing and delaying once more the com- relates to an earlier period of time and, while mencement of these long-awaited changes. it might have been relevant at that time, it is Over the recent recess, the government no longer relevant now. I think the amend- sought agreement with the Democrats to ment was such that it would have deferred overcome a number of concerns expressed consideration of the bill to about now—to during the second reading debate. In particu- some time in March. As a consequence, I do lar, we sought to overcome the very real not think we need to go ahead with it and I concerns regarding sunsetting that had been seek leave to withdraw it. I think that puts us expressed and also the concerns about gender- in a position where the minister may be about specific language. The Attorney-General also the only person left to speak in closing this said: debate. One of the most significant issues to come out of Leave granted. the parliamentary consideration by the 1995 Labor Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— chaired House of Representatives Standing Com- mittee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs was the Minister for Justice) (11.16 a.m.)—I think it recommendation that sunsetting of all delegated is disappointing that, after an expression of legislation be provided for. This bill gives effect to support for the broad policy area of this bill, that recommendation. Now the opposition is trying its passage appears not to be achievable in a to move away from sunsetting, making spurious manner acceptable to the government. In the claims that the provisions allow the government to spring sittings last year, the government and renege on continuing desirable delegated legislation the other house considered a large number of following its sunsetting. amendments proposed by the Senate and were In March the Attorney spent considerable unable to agree to those amendments. On 5 time with Senator Murray or his office trying December 1997, the Attorney-General said, to overcome his serious concerns with and I quote: sunsetting. The Attorney thought that those negotiations were very productive and would The government has indicated in the past its desire for the streamlining of the way in which govern- have resulted in amendments which the ment regulations are produced and scrutinised in government could accept. To assist that order to ensure regulations are relevant, workable process, we developed a mechanism which and effective and that any unnecessary regulatory would ensure that instruments of importance burden on business and the community at large is to the parliament would not be sunsetted removed. At the same time, the government has without the parliament having two opportuni- modelled the legislation to ensure that the govern- ment is able to maintain control of important ties to convince the rule maker that the programs for which it has a responsibility to the instrument should be remade. We understood community. It has done so by providing minimum that the Democrats had accepted that ap- exemption from compliance with parts of the proach and were prepared to support that Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2633 amendment in this chamber. As I am advised, in no way acknowledged that some of the it now appears that our understanding was positions being pursued now are positions erroneous and that the Democrats were not which were being held very closely and serious in trying to seek resolution of the guardedly and asserted very strongly by the concerns to enable the passage of the bill. present Attorney-General before the last The latest draft of amendments put forward election. are entirely unacceptable and depart signifi- This is a piece of legislation which has seen cantly from the approach that we had under- the Attorney take different positions in oppo- stood was being adopted following our dis- sition and government. It has seen us in this cussions. For the reasons given to the Senate place evolve positions during the last debate last year, the government is unable to accept but, unfortunately, when the minister says that the many recycled amendments that I under- the Democrats have not taken the consultation stand are now being proposed by the opposi- process seriously she is saying that others tion and the Greens. The government will have not taken it seriously either. That asser- again reject those amendments in the other tion is one that cannot be made validly with house and the bill will not be returned to this respect to this legislation. The assertion that chamber. can be made validly is that no matter how Question resolved in the affirmative. often the opposition went to the government Bill read a second time. with compromises and concessions—and I believe it is the same situation with the In Committee Democrats: it did nor matter how often they The bill. did it as well—we were told, ‘Well, we are not interested.’ Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.24 a.m.)—I think that opposition amendments 1, This is a government that wants to use this 3, 20, 22 and 29 are identical to the amend- legislation for some bizarre, from left field ments to be moved by the Democrats. I purpose, as a trigger for a double dissolution. anticipate that the government will accept They are trigger happy—and it is something these amendments. They go to the issue of we do not understand. They have their big non-sexist language. I think that Senator triggers, so why not be constructive on this? Murray may want to move those, but before Is the Attorney not capable of a degree of he does I place on record my disappointment lateral thinking? Is it not within his capacity at the way the government has handled this or freedom to budge an inch? Is the Prime legislation. It is very much the sign of an Minister sitting on him so much that his arrogant government, a government which has independence even in this area cannot be not been prepared to negotiate meaningfully asserted? That is the conclusion that we come on matters which are in many ways procedur- to. As I said, we have been prepared to make al. We find ourselves now in a position where concessions in the context of this debate—and the Senate has basically been told for the last we will be putting up some concessions in the few months to take it or leave it in terms of committee stage. But with respect to most the government’s position. When this bill amendments before us there is good reason came before us a few months ago, I made it why the government can budge and have been very clear that the opposition had predisposi- able to budge and no good reason for them to tions and positions but we were prepared to be saying to us, as they have in recent weeks, negotiate with the government. ‘We are not interested in talking to you, in I must say that I expected a lot better than making any concessions or trying to work our what we have had from the Attorney-General way through this legislation.’ over the last few months and I expected a lot The one thing that really stings in this better than the speech that the poor Minister legislation, the one aspect of it which, I fear, for Justice had to read out just a few minutes is the main reason the government is subvert- ago, a speech which in no way acknowledged ing a meaningful process, is that they want to the concerns that senators had, a speech that do through this legislation what they could 2634 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 not do through the Public Service reform government, as they say, are already doing legislation: they want to be able to remove— what this amendment seeks to enshrine in after a short period of time, with the sunset legislation. clause proposed—critical terms and conditions The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- that relate to the Australian public sector. This tor Hogg)—Senator Murray, on a couple of is the ideological and zealotry position of the occasions Senator Bolkus has mentioned workplace relations minister and the Prime amendments to be moved by you. We do not Minister. They could not do it through the have a copy at the table at this stage of any Public Service reform legislation, so they are Democrat amendments or Democrat-Green trying to do it through this one. In doing it amendments, if that is what they are. Could through this one they are prepared to junk any you make us a little wiser as to whether you meaningful amendment to the process of will be moving the amendments? Our running parliamentary procedures. sheet indicates that they are opposition This first batch of amendments, which I amendments. will leave to Senator Murray to move, relates Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) to the use of non-sexist language. The amend- (11.31 a.m.)—Yes, I can. I apologise for the ments simply require that in the drafting of fact that you have not got them because the legislative instruments non-sexist language assistant has given them to me. should be used unless there is a specific Senator Bolkus—I wonder if I can suggest intention to distinguish between people on the that we move them jointly? basis of their gender. The government had Senator MURRAY—Yes, I can do that. indicated that they had no objection to such My apologies—I was under the impression amendments in principle, noting, as they said, that they had been circulated. that it is current practice. In particular, the Attorney had noted that ‘since the report of The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— the House of Representatives Standing Com- Senator Murray, we have a copy of the mittee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs on amendments supplied by Senator Bolkus. We clearer Commonwealth law drafters have been did not know whether you were relying on ensuring that gender neutral language is used those or whether you had a separate set of in all new provisions and in any amendment amendments. of existing legislation.’ So I hope that, in the Senator MURRAY—You will have them coded language used by the minister just a before you shortly. I wonder whether I could few minutes a go, these amendments will now make some remarks before we proceed on be acceptable to the government, because in that basis? essence the government are saying to us that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—You this is already happening in practice. If it is certainly may. happening in practice, there is no real reason for the government to refuse to accept a Senator MURRAY—Thank you. Firstly, I legislative requirement that these things must apologise to the committee for the late circu- happen in practice. lation of our amendments. They are late because of a last minute attempt to arrive at There are good reasons that this amendment agreement with the government. They will be should be supported, even though we are with you shortly. They are a short batch of talking about something that is happening in amendments. I think, in starting this debate, practice, and the good reasons include the fact we must refer to the remarks made by the that, importantly, we are sending a message minister concerning consultation and negotia- that non-sexist language is the way to go with tion with the various parties and Independents respect to government legislation. The Senate that form the Senate. I cannot speak for the does have an opportunity here—in fact, a others, although I am sure that they have responsibility—to make that principled state- made their own efforts, but the Australian ment. In particular, it should not be seen as of Democrats were—and still are—of the view nuisance value to the government, since the that this bill is fundamentally a good and Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2635 desirable bill except that it is flawed in a agreement, on behalf of the opposition and number of areas. One particular area is that of the Democrats and we could get those out of sunset regulations through the bill. It was on the way to start with. that that we sought to negotiate with the Senator MURRAY—I can identify them government. for you, if I may. On their sheet 910, my I acknowledge that both the Minister for sheet 968, No. 1 is the same. On their page 2, Justice (Senator Vanstone) and the Attorney- No. 3 is distinct—it is not the same. General (Mr Williams) were helpful and The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— cooperative in attempting to negotiate an Senator Murray, rather than take the time of appropriate outcome, as indeed were their the Senate, maybe it would be better if your advisers. The negotiations were conducted in adviser could go through them and give us a good spirit, but at the end of the process list of ones where there is concurrence be- neither we nor the government could come to tween the Democrat and the opposition an agreement. That is one of those facts of amendments. life and one has to be mature about it. I do not intend to punch the government in the Senator MURRAY—I would be happy for throat about it, and I would assume that they the opposition to move those that they have do not intend the same, although I thought the now and then to move the remaining ones of minister did unnecessarily attack us. mine which are left over from that. The fact is that we disagree on the route we The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—That want to go. I think that is regrettable but it would be the best way to do it; that would represents our alternative viewpoints in these facilitate it. They can move those amendments matters. The minister must seek to persuade where there is concurrence on behalf of the the entire Senate as to her case and, if she is opposition and the Democrats. able to persuade the entire Senate, then she Senator MURRAY—I should point out will get the bill through in the form which is that the ones that we have circulated, which acceptable to her. If she does not, then the are items 1 to 6 and item 10, were all ap- government must either accept the Senate’s proved with the government in our negotia- view or reject it and lay the bill aside, or put tions. it up as a double dissolution matter. Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.37 This Senate has not lightly rejected any a.m.)—That raises two issues. I am prepared bills. Of the more than 340 bills that have to move the opposition amendments. I gather been passed by the Senate, there have been from the running sheet provided by the Senate only five packages of bills which were subject office that they are amendments Nos, 1, 2, 3, to a possible double dissolution trigger and 8, 12, 14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 28, 29, 30, 32 and one of those, at least, was eventually passed. 33. Senator Murray raised the point that, in This is the last of the four that were remain- respect of his amendments on this particular ing. issue, there were discussions with the govern- Madam Chair, if you have before you sheet ment and that the government was prepared No. 968, I would like to move the amend- to accept the wording of his amendments. ments. Do you have the sheet? I think we are in a difficult situation here. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- We do not know what the government’s tor Patterson)—We have the sheet but it is concerns are with the opposition amendments not on the running sheet. We do not have any as opposed to the Democrats amendments—if, way of identifying which clauses are the same in fact, there are any concerns. We do not as the clauses in the amendments to be moved know what the differences are. We also do by the opposition. I was wondering, Senator not know whether the Democrats are prepared Murray, whether your assistant could have a to support the opposition amendments and, if look and indicate which of the clauses match they are, to what extent their further amend- those of the opposition. Senator Bolkus then ments are different from ours. It would be could move those amendments, with your good to hear from both the government and 2636 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 the Democrats as to whether I should proceed to have another look at the other amendments with all of mine or where the differences are batched together at this stage and see whether in respect of the Democrats amendments and they also go to that particular subject of the ones that I am proposing. gender specific language. Senator COLSTON (Queensland) (11.38 The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- a.m.)—Could Senator Bolkus go through the tor Patterson)—Minister, I am advised by amendments individually and briefly say what the clerk that we do not have the government they are. I am finding it a little difficult to amendments here at the table. follow what the amendments are at the mo- Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— ment. It would make it easier for me if he Minister for Justice) (11.41 a.m.)—The reason could do that. for that is that the government is not moving Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.38 the amendments. As I am advised, one of my a.m.)—I could start doing that. The first batch advisers had a discussion outside the chamber of amendments comprises those which go to with Senator Bolkus’s adviser and handed him the use of gender specific language. I was a list of amendments that the government proceeding on the basis that the amendments would be prepared to accept, but we are not that I would be moving at this particular time going to move them. That was just to indicate would be amendments Nos 1, 3, 20, 22 and to the opposition what we would accept. The 29. As we can see from the running sheet reason why those amendments have not been provided by the clerk’s office, further amend- circulated is because we are not moving them. ments have been added. I do not want to The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Are proceed at this stage with suggested amend- you suggesting that you made an agreement ments Nos 12 and 14 because I anticipate that outside that you would suggest an amendment they are, in one sense, extraneous to the to the amendment? Is that correct? question of gender specific language. At this particular stage, I make the point Senator VANSTONE—No. I understand that we are hampered in this debate. We have that there was nothing more than a discussion, only just had the running sheet provided to with one person saying to another, ‘If you us, so we still need to have a close look at want to know what the government will what has been proposed. Also, we were only accept, look at this.’ It was nothing more than provided with the government’s amendments that. that go to gender specific language at 11.23 Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.42 a.m.—that is the time written on the amend- a.m.)—That just makes the position even ments as circulated. We first got notice of it more impossible. We have a situation where about 10 minutes ago. That raises another the government is saying, ‘Don’t lay this on problem for us. They might have been given us but, when it comes to gender specific to other people earlier, but we were only language, when it comes to sunset clauses, we given them in the last 10 minutes, so we need know that we can move a bit but we are not to digest what is in those amendments as prepared to do it ourselves. I was not aware well. that this was a sort of plain envelope ap- I will go specifically to what is in amend- proach coming from the government whereby ments Nos 1, 3, 20 and 22. I say to the the amendments were not attributable. Senate and to Senator Colston that these It is an impossible situation. In the last 10 amendments were originally moved by the minutes or so we have been told, ‘Look at Australian Democrats. They simply require these. This might be a way through.’ We have that non-sexist language be used in the draft- been trying to get meaningful discussions ing of a legislative instrument. Amendments with the government on this for months. We Nos 1 and 3 obviously are embroidery to the have tried consistently to get a meaningful substantive point which is covered in amend- response to these issues from the Attorney- ments Nos 20, 22 and 29. That is all I can say General’s office. It is not good enough for the at this stage, Senator Colston. I also now want government to bowl this up, to maintain that Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2637 it is not going to compromise on it, to use reason the chamber does not have a clue is this as a double dissolution trigger mechanism that at the last moment the government, in all but then, outside the chamber and behind its incompetence, is trying to work a way closed doors, to suggest that maybe it is through that it should have been working prepared to move. That makes the debate in through some time ago. The chamber has here impossible. been put in an impossible situation by the The Attorney has had a long time, with government. Were we to have other legisla- many initiatives and many approaches both tion to move to straight away, I would prob- from us and from the Democrats, to try to ably move for a deferral of this particular work a way through this. Then, at the death legislation. knock, we are told, ‘This might be a way The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— through but we do not want to be pinned for Senator Bolkus, you foreshadowed that you this.’ Is he afraid of the Prime Minister would be moving a series of amendments. finding out that he is trying to move away Maybe if you could go back and list them so from the inflexible position of the cabinet? Is that all senators know what is happening. We that the motivation here? That makes it even will start again. You are going to move more impossible. amendment No. 1 and not No. 2. What about Senator Colston asked for a run-down of No. 3? the amendments before us at the moment. Senator BOLKUS—Madam Chairman, let Maybe the best thing to do is to proceed with us do this again. When I was speaking earlier, those amendments and disregard the I had a list of amendments in mind—1, 3, 20, government’s proposals, unless the govern- 22 and 29. The clerk’s office has given us a ment is prepared to proceed with them itself. running sheet which is a bit more comprehen- Amendment No. 1 states that gender specific sive than that. Can I suggest that we do not language means language that expresses bias want to move at this stage amendments Nos in favour of one sex. That appears on docu- 12 and 14 which were listed on the running ment 910 of the opposition amendments. sheet. Amendment No. 2 is an amendment which The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Just I do not think is appropriate in this first batch going back to that running sheet, amendment because it goes to timing and disallowance No. 1 you will be moving and No. 2 you will and sunset clauses. not be moving. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—So Senator BOLKUS—I will not be moving you are not moving No. 2? half of those on the running sheet but I will be moving the other half. I wish to move Senator BOLKUS—I think at this particu- amendments Nos 1 to 3, 8, 15, 17, 20, 22 and lar stage— 29. Senator Vanstone—He hasn’t got a clue. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—But Senator BOLKUS—Senator Vanstone you just said you were not moving No. 2? makes the point that I do not have a clue. Senator BOLKUS—Yes, I know but I am Senator Vanstone, you are the one who has now moving No. 2. It is more appropriate come in here with your advisers running here than further down the list. around the back of this chamber peddling Senator Harradine—No. 15 is not on the amendments that you do not know about running sheet. yourself, and you reckon we do not have a clue. Senator BOLKUS—Senator Harradine, the point I have been making is that the running The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— sheet has also been brought in at the last Senator Bolkus, will you address your com- moment. As a consequence of that, at the last ments through the chair. minute we have had to look at the running Senator BOLKUS—We have been trying sheet to see which amendments were appro- to get a compromise on this for weeks. The priate to this particular part of the debate—the 2638 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 debate on the question of gender specific The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Nos language. The amendments that I foreshadow 1to3? moving in respect of gender specific language Senator BOLKUS—That is right. But if are Nos 1 to 3, 8, 15, 17, 20, 22 and 29. we can go back to No. 2 again: I think I was I have talked to this point before. We will right the first time and I think Senator Colston be moving the other amendments later in the may also be right that that amendment should debate. It might be appropriate now for the not be dealt with during the issue of gender Democrats to tell us which of their amend- specific language—it should be dealt with ments either are in conflict with the amend- later on. Can I suggest also that, during the ments I have just foreshadowed or go even lunchbreak, it might be appropriate for the further than those amendments. running sheet to be revisited by the clerk’s The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— office—probably in consultation with all Senator Colston, is it clear to you, because parties—to get some better clarity as to the you asked the question, that we are now issues raised. talking about those amendments that Senator The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— Bolkus has just foreshadowed? They are on Senator Bolkus, I will clarify the situation: sheet 910 of the opposition amendments. you will now be moving, on behalf of the Senator COLSTON (Queensland) (11.48 Democrats and the opposition, amendments 1 a.m.)—Originally, the amendments to be and 3. You will then be moving Nos 8, 15, moved were Nos 1, 3, 20, 22 and 29 and 17, 20, 22 and 29 on behalf of the opposition. maybe No. 8 as well. But do I understand Senator BOLKUS—I was just going to get now that it is 1 to 3, 8, 15, 17, 20, 22 and to that. We are going through this laboriously. 29? It comes back to the first batch— The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—That Senator Vanstone—You have an incapaci- is correct. ty to organise yourself. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Senator BOLKUS—Senator Vanstone says (11.49 a.m.)—I must say that, as a debate, it is our incapacity to organise ourselves. this is not particularly enlightening. What I Senator Vanstone, we had organised ourselves have identified—and I am waiting for the before two things happened: your advisers reference from my adviser—is that amend- muddied the water with last-minute amend- ments Nos 1, 3, 4 and 10 on sheet 968 are the ments that do not turn out to be amendments same as the opposition’s. It would probably at all, which have taken a fair degree of time be easiest if those fell away. That would just and attention over the last half hour or so and leave the opposition to move theirs. which have just served to confuse the process; and a running sheet which is totally inappro- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—You priate and does not cover the issue before us do not need to move those, Senator Murray. right now. They are the two matters that have Senator MURRAY—Our amendments Nos intervened first thing this morning. The 1, 3, 4 and 10 are all the same as Labor’s. minister for insults may continue her insults, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—In the but they are not appropriate at this stage. We ones that we are now considering, Nos 1 to 3 are trying to work through this in a more are the same. Senator Bolkus, are you in constructive way than she has been able to agreement that those two amendments should and the Attorney-General has been able to. be moved by you on behalf of the opposition The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— and the Democrats, and that the rest should be Senator Bolkus, if you would address your just moved by you? comments through the chair and ignore the Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.51 interjections, we may be able to move on. a.m.)—I am in agreement with the Democrats Senator BOLKUS—The minister for not pursuing theirs and, in a sense, co-spon- insults continues to try to frustrate this pro- soring the amendments that I have moved. cess. I think she should take a back-seat Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2639 approach whilst we try to work out what the (22) Clause 52, page 54 (after line 16), after government is trying to put to us at the last subparagraph (vii), insert: minute and what the running sheet is trying (viia) whether gender specific language to put to us as well. I think it is more appro- has been used in the instrument; priate at this stage to proceed with amend- and ments Nos 1 and 3, 20, 22 and 29. (29) Clause 71, page 79 (line 9), omit "Chair- man", substitute "Chair". The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— Senator Bolkus, we seem to have lost 15 and The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— 17. Senator Bolkus, you omitted amendment 8 in that round. Do you want to include amend- Senator BOLKUS—We have lost 15 and ment 8? 17 because on examination of the running sheet it is quite inappropriate for them to be Senator Bolkus—No, I do not. put on the running sheet for this part of the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—You debate. Amendments 15 and 17 relate to included amendment 8 the second last time. exceptions for consultants. Amendment 8 Let me clarify the situation now. You have relates to the inclusion of environmental moved on behalf of the Democrats and the matters in a legislative instruments proposal. opposition amendments 1 and 3, and on In respect of those amendments which go behalf of the opposition amendments 20, 22 purely to gender specific language, we should and 29. The question is that the amendments go back to the ones I wanted to move and moved by Senator Bolkus—amendments 1 indicated I was moving in the first place and and 3 moved on behalf of the opposition and they are amendments 1, 3, 20, 22 and 29. The Democrats and amendments 20, 22 and 29 Democrats could have a look at those amend- moved on behalf of the opposition—be agreed ments and indicate whether they cover the to. areas contained in their amendments and Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (11.54 whether they might be prepared to support a.m.)—We have not heard any argument in them. I seek leave to move the amendments support of these amendments. I would be together. interested to particularly hear a response from Leave granted. the government on these matters. I would be interested to know the implications. I recall Senator BOLKUS—I move: on the last occasion we debated this legisla- (1) Clause 4, page 3 (after line 3), after the tion that the Australian Democrats moved an definition of explanatory statement, insert: amendment which stated: gender specific language means language that relationship assumptions, in relation to the expresses bias in favour of one sex. depiction of marriage-like relationships, means (3) Clause 16, page 18 (after line 15), at the end language that expresses bias in favour of relation- of the clause, add: ships between persons of the opposite sex and which therefore treats relationships between persons (3) In promoting measures to ensure that of the same sex in a discriminatory manner. legislative instruments are of a high standard, the Principal Legislative Coun- Well, blow me down! Can we be very clear sel must ensure that legislative instru- on these particular issues and whether that ments do not contain gender-specific lan- matter is now on the table. Are we going to guage unless it is necessary to identify be debating in this committee stage the persons by their sex. extraordinary proposition that there should be (20) Clause 42, page 43 (after line 24), at the no discrimination between marriage-like end of the clause, add: relationships between persons of the same sex (4) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, the and marriages of persons of the opposite sex? Principal Legislative Counsel must not Let us be quite open about it. What are we register a legislative instrument if the instrument contains any gender specific talking about here? I would be interested to language unless it is necessary to identify hear what the minister says about the propo- persons by their sex. sals that are being put forward now. First of 2640 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 all, I would like to hear what the proposals Amendment No. 22 refers to gender specific are and an explanation of them. language being used in the instrument. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Amendment No. 29 omits ‘Chairman’ and (11.56 a.m.)—If I could assist you, Senator substitutes ‘Chair’. Basically, these amend- Harradine, by repeating some of the remarks ments go to the issue of gender specific I made whilst you were outside the chamber. language. They do not go to any other issues Amendments 1 to 6 and 10 on sheet 968 were that might have been canvassed in the first agreed between the Democrats and the debate on this bill in the Senate. government as appropriate gender issues to be Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— raised. None of them refer to the issue you Minister for Justice) (11.59 a.m.)—I note for have raised. Each of them deals with the issue the convenience of those people who are of how gender is to be addressed in legislative insomniacs and may at some stage find instruments and accords with the intentions themselves reading the Hansard in relation to that already exist now in the Acts Interpreta- this bill that the debate started at about a tion Act. quarter past 11. I have not spoken in any That is the wording that we agreed on with substantive way on it at all. Senator Murray the government in our previous negotiations. has spoken briefly, cogently and articulately, Our negotiations fell down on amendments 7, albeit I disagree with some of things he has 8 and 9 and not on any other amendments. If said. All the rest of the time Senator Bolkus you wish further clarification, amendments 1, has been in here huffing and puffing, as you 3, 4 and 10 on my sheet are exactly the same know, Madam Temporary Chairman, taking as the opposition’s. The issue you raised is you through this amendment and that amend- not before the chamber. The government and ment, then he is moving it and then he is not. the Democrats have discussed these issues and He accuses the government of not knowing have agreed to this wording. I hope that is what they are doing when he has spent rough- helpful. ly three-quarters of an hour—I will give him the benefit of the doubt—say, half an hour, Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.58 indulging himself at taxpayers’ expense trying a.m.)—Can I also say to Senator Harradine to sort out what he should be doing. that I did go through the substantive issues earlier in the debate. It is probably worth In his earlier remarks, to which I seek to while at this stage, given the tortuous nature respond, he made the rather unpleasant allega- of the last half an hour or so, to specifically tion that this government is an arrogant go through the amendments. government. I had thought, and I still do think, that the previous Prime Minister exhib- The issue you are concerned about is an ited more arrogance than I have ever seen issue that was discussed last time but was not ooze out of a politician in my entire life, and accepted by the Senate last time. Amendment I do not think that will ever be duplicated. No. 1 spells out that gender specific language This government is not an arrogant govern- means language that expresses bias in favour ment at all. of one sex. Amendment No. 3 basically states: I can put the position fairly simply here. (3) In promoting measures to ensure that legisla- tive instruments are of high standard, the Princi- Senator Murray, you say in relation to sheet pal Legislative Counsel must ensure that legisla- No. 968 that amendments 1 to 6 and 10 were tive instruments do not contain gender specific basically agreed with the government. There language unless it is necessary to identify per- is one proviso to that which has not been sons by their sex. mentioned—that is, the savings clauses need Amendment No. 20 on page 3 states: to be included. I understand that you were advised of that. If those savings clauses were (4) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, the Principal Legislative Counsel must not register included, those amendments would be accept- a legislative instrument if the instrument contains able. I understand that has been discussed any gender specific language unless it is neces- with you. There has been some exchange sary to identify persons by their sex. between your office and the Attorney’s. This Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2641 sheet is dated 8 April at 5.34 p.m, although but for this subsection’, which you are refer- that may simply be a print-off time rather ring to, which is not in the Labor amendment. than the time it was given to you. I can, So amendments 4 and 20 are not exact repli- Senator Murray, if you want me to, read into cas. I apologise for that. the Hansard record those savings clauses. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—They Perhaps you would like me to do that, would are not the same. Senator Bolkus has moved you? his amendment No. 20 and that is what we Senator Murray—I think that would be a are discussing at the moment. good idea. Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— Senator VANSTONE—Okay. If at clause Minister for Justice) (12.04 p.m.)—Do I take 42, page 43, after line 24, we add at the end it, Senator Murray, that I do not need to of the clause— further elucidate that point? The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) tor Patterson)—Senator Vanstone, we are (12.04 p.m.)—I certainly intend to move now talking about Democrat amendment 4, I amendment 4 on my sheet as agreed between presume, clause 42, page 43. ourselves and the government. Senator VANSTONE—It is a bit difficult Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.05 with some Democrat amendments and some p.m.)—To facilitate debate, I seek leave to opposition amendments. I put it to you this withdraw amendment No. 20. way: in relation to the package of gender Leave granted. amendments, whether you want to call them Senator Murray’s amendments with his The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—We numbers or Senator Bolkus’s amendments now have amendments 1 and 3, moved by with his numbers—and I am not moving Senator Bolkus on behalf of the Democrats anything, so I do not need to tie it to one and the opposition, and amendments 22 and package or the other—I am simply for Sena- 29. The question is that those amendments be tor Murray’s edification outlining the addi- agreed to. tional changes that he might want to move if Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— he wants to get the government’s support for Minister for Justice) (12.05 p.m.)—Perhaps either his amendments or Senator Bolkus’s Senator Murray might like to talk politely for amendments. a minute just to ascertain that the change he The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Just is making does fit in with what the govern- for the clarification of the Senate, it is Demo- ment is looking at. crat amendment 4 and opposition amendment The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Some 20. Amendment 20 has been moved by of this confusion apparently is because the Senator Bolkus. running sheet was put together quite late. The Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.03 clerk has advised me that has been one of the p.m.)—It would facilitate debate if the reasons for some of this confusion. minister would address her suggestion to Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.06 opposition amendment 20, which is the one p.m.)—I am glad you made that point because before the chamber at the moment. we had been coming in here proceeding on a The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—It batch of amendments which was expanded would assist us, Senator Vanstone. We are quite substantially by the late settled running now talking about opposition amendment 20. sheet. I think the course of the last half an Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) hour or so has wound us back to the position (12.04 p.m.)—The minister has actually we were in when we first started in here. picked up the correct inference. My adviser Senator Vanstone has made some comments had indicated that Labor’s amendment 20 is about the confusion and about the government the same as amendment 4 on my sheet, but in not moving amendments, having no amend- fact that is not so. There is a qualifying ‘that, ments and whatever. What I would like to do 2642 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 is table the amendments which the govern- able, after the inserted part which ends ‘ne- ment was floating. I think it is important for cessary to identify persons by their sex.’, you the continued debate on this for these amend- would then have to add another clause which ments to be tabled. They have a time stamp would read ‘that the registration of an instru- of 11.23 a.m. on them and they do have the ment that contains gender specific language inscription that these amendments were to be is nonetheless a valid registration’. moved on behalf of the government. We now That would mean you would then have to know they are not to going to be moved on make a consequential amendment in relation behalf of the government; they are just going to clause 43, page 44, after line 17. I will not to be floated in the back rooms. I think it is read in that consequential amendment because important for those of us who want to con- I think it will just confuse people’s minds. On sider further amendments later on in terms of the basis of that addition and the consequen- sunset clauses that this be before the Senate. tial amendment that would need to be made, I seek leave to table those amendments. we could agree with your No. 4 or, for that Leave granted. matter, with opposition amendment No. 20, Senator BOLKUS—I hope by making that which has now been withdrawn. If I can put intervention the minister has been able to sort a summary position, the government could out where we should now go. agree with opposition amendments 1, 3, 20, 22 and 29 with the addition of the clause that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- I read out attached to amendment No. 20 or tor Patterson)—The question is that amend- Democrat amendment No. 4, if you want to ments 1 and 3 moved by Senator Bolkus on call it that, with a subsequent consequential behalf of the Democrats and the opposition amendment. Without that, we cannot agree to and amendments 22 and 29 moved by Senator any of them. Bolkus on behalf of the opposition be agreed to. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— Senator Vanstone, we do not have amendment Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— No. 20 before us at the moment. I just want Minister for Justice) (12.07 p.m.)—In relation to make that clear. to Democrat amendment No. 4, I will come back to that because it relates to the whole Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) package. (12.10 p.m.)—Madam Temporary Chair, I do Senator Bolkus—I’m listening to you very think, however, that the minister’s remarks are closely. germane to the whole package that lie within this. Minister, our understanding of your Senator VANSTONE—You looked con- proposed addition is to avoid the situation fused. Democrat amendment No. 4 is different where the inadvertent use of gender specific to opposition amendment No. 20, which, I language might result in a legislative instru- understand, Senator Bolkus, you have with- ment being made invalid, and we agree with drawn. You are going to put Democrat that. We do not want to generate a problem amendment No. 4 in its place. on that basis. If your indication is that, as my Senator Bolkus—That’s right, and you said understanding was previously, the government you were supporting it. was going to support item 2 on our sheet 968, Senator VANSTONE—I come back to the which is also a gender specific matter, we point that I then started on. I will address it regard those two as joined. For instance, if to Democrat amendment No. 4. That would you were, when we moved them, to move have been acceptable but for the savings your amendment but simultaneously accept clauses, and they are not on your running item 2 on our sheet, we are content to accept sheet, Senator Murray. It is not true to say your approach. that the government was happy with Demo- Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.11 crat amendment No. 4 as it stands. As I am p.m.)—I think that is not a bad compromise advised, you have been advised that, in order on behalf of the Democrats. It accepts the to make Democrat amendment No. 4 work- government’s point that there might be inad- Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2643 vertent use of the language but it also requires wrong would be better. It might be helpful if that there be a reporting to parliament when you withdrew that. there has been such inadvertent use. The Senator HARRADINE—No, I am not bottom line is that the legislative instrument withdrawing it, Madam Chair, I am sorry, still has legal effect but the parliament is in because it was a deceptive statement. Madam a position to be both advised of any inadver- Chair, I think this is a very important matter tent use as a consequence of that and able to to be debated. Obviously, if you insist that I ensure rectification of it. I think it really withdraw it, out of courtesy to you as chair, overcomes any particular unforeseen conse- I will do so, but I have the proof here that it quence problem the government might have was a deceptive statement. Perhaps I should in respect of this measure. say that it was a deceptive statement, not that Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (12.12 the Attorney-General was deceptive, if I may p.m.)—I come back to the matter that I raised just do that. previously, and I raised it quite deliberately. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Thank I am grateful to Senator Murray for explain- you, Senator Harradine. ing to the committee that those matters which Senator HARRADINE—I will certainly were dealt with and rejected by the Senate deal with this later on in this discussion when will not be put forward now. That includes it comes to the question of examining legisla- the definition of relationship assumptions. tive instruments. The worst part about it is That was contained in the Australian Demo- that he has not revealed that to the other crats proposal on the last occasion which members of the state Attorneys-General defined those relationship assumptions in committee, which deals with these matters, relation to the depiction of marriage-like such that it seems that they have also been relationships as meaning language that ex- deceived. One of the big problems for this presses bias in favour of relationships between chamber, or, indeed, the federal parliament, is persons of the opposite sex and which there- to adequately scrutinise regulations or legisla- fore treat relationships between persons of the tive instruments that arise as a result of a same sex in a discriminatory manner. This federal arrangement which is arrived at behind whole question of discrimination is a very closed doors. important one for society and for the parlia- ment. It must be realised that you can have I would like the Minister representing the legitimate discrimination and be discrimina- Attorney-General, and, indeed, representing tory. That depends entirely on the nature of the government in this place, to assure the the relationship. committee that none of the proposals that have been put forward or will be supported by I raise this particularly because I want a the government will in any way inferentially response from the Minister representing the do what was proposed to be done by the Attorney-General, the Minister for Justice, in amendment which was placed before the respect of it because very often these sorts of chamber by the Australian Democrats regard- things come in through the backdoor. I will ing relationship assumptions. It would be express later in this debate my considerable extraordinary, would it not, if this particular doubts about the Attorney-General (Mr Wil- piece of legislation was used to attack the liams) in respect of another area, which I institution of marriage through the backdoor, foreshadow now—that is, a deceptive state- as it were. As we all know, the Family Law ment made by the Attorney-General in respect Act itself defines marriage: of the classification of materials in the publi- . . . as the union of a man and a woman to the cation and video material area. There is exclusion of all others voluntarily entered into . . . absolute proof that he was wrong. If the assumption clause that was proposed by The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- the Democrats previously was in some way tor Patterson)—Senator Harradine, using the inferentially supported by the language that phrase ‘deceptive statement’ is not quite the government is prepared now to accept, parliamentary, and maybe saying it was that would be extraordinary because it propos- 2644 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 es to treat relationships between persons of place Senator Murray’s No. 4. That is the the same sex in the same way for the pur- position we are at. poses of a marriage-like relationship as that The government would accept opposition 1 of a marriage between a man and a woman. and 3, Democrat 3 and 4—and I think it is an I just want to have that very clearly responded oversight that Democrat 3 has not been to by the government—that is, the govern- mentioned—and opposition 22 and 29 if, at ment will not support anything that would the end of Democrat 4, you inserted clause 5, have such a consequence or would be likely which would read, ‘The registration of an to lead to such a consequence. instrument that contains gender specific Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— language is nonetheless a valid registration,’ Minister for Justice) (12.20 p.m.)—I will and if, at the end of Democrat 3, you added respond to Senator Harradine first. Senator clause 4 with the same wording. Harradine, I do not accept the proposition that I just ask the committee’s indulgence for a I understand you are putting—that is, the moment while I get some advice. I may have Democrats, by way of amendment, have inadvertently created some confusion, but I sought in some way to discriminate. It is quite think we are close to getting to the end of the opposite. In fact, I think their intention is this. to have non-discriminatory wording, and I do Senator Bolkus—That is a brave statement. not believe that there are any amendments that specifically move towards what you say. Senator VANSTONE—If you will just Therefore, I have a different view. bear with me, Senator Bolkus. After three- quarters of an hour of you, I think we can do I think I understand what you are saying. I it in about five minutes if you can just bring will not put words in your mouth, but I will yourself— paraphrase what I think you are saying. That is, you think that making something non- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— gender specific removes the opportunity to Senator Vanstone, direct your comments identify a female on the basis of whether she through the chair. is married or not; that that is a consequence Senator VANSTONE—Senator Bolkus had of non-gender specific legislation. That may the indulgence of the chair and plenty of time be, although I am at a loss to think of an to get to this point and if he could just con- example of where that would apply. tain himself for another few minutes, I think we can get there. We were, as I said, original- I will try to clear up this difficulty we have ly talking about opposition amendments 1, 3, got with two separate sheets and with what 20, 22 and 29. Amendment 20 was withdrawn we are doing, so if you can just bear with me, and Democrat 4 was moved in its place. Madam Chairman. Because I am in the process of debating a point rather than putting The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—No, specific motions and I am trying to clear up we have not moved Democrat 4 yet. the difficulty we have got with having two Senator VANSTONE—It has not been separate sheets, of necessity, I therefore have substituted? to refer to some things on both sheets which The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—No. might not necessarily be specifically before the chamber at the time. Senator VANSTONE—But there is an intention to. In terms of this gender specific issue and wanting to package it up, we were looking at The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—That opposition amendments 1, 3, 20, 22 and 29. is right, Senator Vanstone. As a consequence of me raising one particular Senator VANSTONE—Okay, that is what point, Senator Murray referred to his amend- we are looking at getting to. I indicated that ment No. 4. As I understand the order of what I thought you should have included Democrat happened, Senator Bolkus said he was happy 3 as well. I actually should have said you to withdraw his amendment No. 20 and put in should have included Democrat 5. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2645

Senator Bolkus—Not 3. of the inappropriate use of gender-specific lan- guage. Senator VANSTONE—Yes, not 3. So if we ended up in a position where we were Basically, we say that gender specific lan- looking at opposition 1 and 3, Democrat 4 guage is not on. We indicate that, in those and 5 and opposition 22 and 29, and if we cases where it is used inadvertently, the added to Democrat 4 and 5 the clause that I instrument still has legislative force but we was talking about, the government would also say that, in order to accept that, there agree with that as a package. needs to be a reporting process to the parlia- ment. As I said earlier, that is a fair balance. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— If the minister wants her rider to 4 to be Senator Murray, if the government’s agree- accepted for 5 as well, that is something we ment to the amendments before us is condi- accept. As I said, amendment 2 is an import- tional on Democrats 4 and 5 having the ant amendment as well. suggested amendments made to them—if that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- was how I heard the minister, that it was tor Patterson)—Senator Murray, it would conditional—it may assist the committee if we assist the committee if you were to seek leave were to deal with Democrat amendments 4 to move your amendments 2, 4 and 5 to- and 5 with the minister’s suggested amend- gether, if you agree to the amendments that ments, if you agreed to them, and then the the government is suggesting, so that they can amendments before us. Therefore, we could be dealt with together with the amendments do that whole package almost in one go. put by Senator Bolkus. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Senator Murray—Madam Temporary (12.28 p.m.)—Madam Chair, thank you for Chairman, I will be guided by you, but I need your assistance. The minister was very clear clarification on item 2. with her response. As I indicated earlier, we The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—We would accept that, but we would wish to have not got item 2 before us; so we need to include Democrat amendment 2 as well. If move them together. The minister may be you include amendment 2, we have a wrapped able to clarify the position. up situation. Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.28 Minister for Justice) (12.30 p.m.)—I think p.m.)—Whilst the minister is getting further Senator Murray is right: sometimes we do not advice, can I say that the amendment pro- have things before us. But in this process we posed by the government or suggested by the are trying to work out what to put before us. government—if we are splitting hairs—to So we have to refer to some things that are Democrat amendment 4 is now being suggest- not necessarily before us; the debate would be ed to Democrat amendment 5 as well. I impossible otherwise. indicated that I was prepared to accept it in respect of Democrat 4 and I think Senator In relation to your item 2, Senator Murray, Murray accepted that as well. I can say at this there is one problem. It is quite simple: if a stage that I think it is appropriate to accept it rule-maker has asked for some rules to be in respect of Democrat 5 as well. made and ‘Mr’ is in there, and the rule-maker is advised in the drafting process that that is So to the extent of having a package, we inappropriate—this is in the drafting process, have got opposition amendments 1, 3, 22 and before it has even come out for public con- 29 and Democrat amendments 4 and 5 with sideration; there might be many occasions in the suggested amendments by the minister. I the chain from when something first starts also think it is important that Democrat before it gets to this place—that behaviour amendment 2 be taken as part of this package. which is described in your amendment 2 That is the amendment that adds a provision could happen. It would be unacceptable any to ensure: time this happens anywhere. Surely, what we . . . reporting to both Houses of the Parliament on are looking at is an end product—the point at any occasion when a rule-maker has been advised which a piece of legislation is to proceed. 2646 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

You might be able to help me in that respect, crat amendments 4 and 5 and No. 2. But I but that is the query that has been raised with caution at this stage that this is what the me by advisers. government, Democrats and opposition agree Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) to; there might be some views from other (12.32 p.m.)—I propose to move an addition senators which may also need to be taken into at the end of my amendment, when I move account. I think the idea of deferring this those amendments, which would cover that. matter for refinement of the wording is a I am not a draftsperson, but I recognise that good idea. what you want is that this only occurs when Senator COLSTON (Queensland) (12.35 a legislative instrument is in force. p.m.)—I have some confusion about Demo- crat amendment 4, and probably 5 as well; Senator Vanstone—Yes. not with the wording of the amendment that Senator MURRAY—That is acceptable. has been submitted, but with the words that Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— come after it. Amendment No. 4 reads: Minister for Justice) (12.33 p.m.)—On that Notwithstanding anything in this Act, the Principal basis, just to clarify the government’s posi- Legislative Counsel must not register a legislative instrument that, but for this subsection, would be tion, if we are looking at opposition amend- required to be registered under section 41, if the ments 1 and 3, Democrat amendments 4 and instrument contains any gender-specific language 5 with the relevant additions, and opposition unless that language is necessary to identify persons amendments 22 and 29, we could accom- by their sex. modate including in that Democrat amend- I do not know what wording has been sug- ment 2, subject to satisfactory wording being gested, but it has been suggested that there be agreed. On that basis—if Senator Bolkus has another clause after that to say that, if there not mentioned he disagrees with your views, is gender-specific language, it does not mean Senator Murray—if we are that close, it might that the instrument is invalid—or words to be worth saying that that is the package that that effect. If it is the case that it is not we want to get; the only difference now is to invalid, wouldn’t that instrument have to be find the wording that would be acceptable to registered as a legislative instrument? the government on item 2. Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— It may not be worth your while, Senator Minister for Justice) (12.36 p.m.)—Senator Murray, to move the amendments to your 4 Colston, I understand your point. With regard and 5 that we request until we have come to to the wording in Democrat amendments 4 an agreement on your No. 2. As I understand and 5, in an ideal world it would never it, adding those two things is not acceptable happen. A Principal Legislative Counsellor unless you get that. Therefore, it might be would never register a legislative instrument sensible to shift to another portion of the that, but for this subsection, would be re- debate while those matters are resolved. But quired to be registered under section 41, if it if we could all agree that they are the matters contained any gender-specific language. that need to be resolved and contain it to that, With the deepest respect that I have for I think we can pretty soon come back and Principal Legislative Counsel, in the end they wrap up this section. are human and they can make mistakes. The Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.34 import of the suggested addition is to say, p.m.)—That was something I was going to ‘Look, we’ve made this law which says that suggest. We need to find probably three or you should not do this.’ Mistakes can hap- four words to add to the end of Democrat pen—by accident rather than bloody-minded amendment No. 2. The words ‘in an intention—in complex bills when amendments instrument’ may be sufficient, given the are being done. Native title is a good example definition of an instrument in the bill—words where we heard the President rightly thanking to that effect. It is probably appropriate now Senate staff for staying back until three or that we agree to come back, maybe after four in the morning. Of necessity, things are lunch, with the agreed amendments to Demo- sometimes done in shorter time frames than Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2647 we might otherwise like and accidents can Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.40 happen. All we are saying is that, in the event p.m.)—The next item is the issue of the of such an accident, we do not want the power of the Attorney to issue a certificate to whole instrument to be considered invalid. the effect that an instrument is not legislative Senator COLSTON (Queensland) (12.38 in character. It is a big subject and one that p.m.)—I follow that. In that case, if it is not will take us more than four minutes. To start invalid, should it not be registered as a legis- on it now would probably be a waste of time. lative instrument, which is what amendment The suggestion that we should defer consider- 4 is saying it should not be? ation of the bill to a later hour of the day is a good one. Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— Minister for Justice) (12.38 p.m.)—Unless I Progress reported. am under a misunderstanding, it will already MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST be registered. By the addition of a clause that The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! It you and I are debating, we are seeking to being nearly 12.45 p.m., I propose that we address a situation where Principal Legislative move to matters of public interest. Counsel has inadvertently overlooked some gender-specific language in an instrument and Western Australia: Resource the instrument has been registered. Someone Development Projects says, ‘Uh, oh, Principal Legislative Counsel Senator EGGLESTON (Western Australia) broke the law by registering this,’ probably (12.42 p.m.)—I would like to talk about some someone will say, ‘Put him in gaol, sack of the resource development projects in the him,’ or whatever, and someone else will say, north of Western Australia which I visited probably for commercial convenience, and during the break and to report to the Senate take it all the way to the High Court, ‘That about how these projects are proceeding. First instrument is invalid.’ We want to cover that of all, I would like to say a little about the situation so that someone cannot take advan- Ord River stage 2 development. The Western tage of the accident of Principal Legislative Australian and Northern Territory govern- Counsel registering something that does have ments announced in April that a joint venture a mistake, that is, gender-specific language in between Wesfarmers and the Marubeni Cor- it. poration had been awarded a contract to The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- further evaluate the Ord stage 2 proposal. tor Hogg)—As I understand it, there is an Wesfarmers, as many senators will know, is intent on the part of the committee to defer a significant Western Australian company opposition amendment Nos 1, 3, 22 and 29 to with thousands of shareholders and headquar- a later hour in the day. Is that correct? ters in Western Australia. Wesfarmers will Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— hold 80 per cent of the joint venture. It is a Minister for Justice) (12.40 p.m.)—Yes, and company with a very grand history of in- if it is of any assistance to you, since you volvement in agriculture in Western Australia might have come in part-way through, the and it is appropriate that it should be involved reason is that the opposition have withdrawn in stage 2 of the Ord development. one amendment and we are looking at adding The other partner in the joint venture is the to opposition amendments 1, 3, 22 and 29 Marubeni Corporation, which is one of some other Democrat amendments on which Japan’s leading trading firms and has a great there needs to be some final settling. deal of experience in the sugar industry, particularly in the development of sugar mills Motion (by Senator Vanstone) agreed to: and refineries. The proposal for the second That further consideration of the amendments be stage of the Ord is for an investment of some postponed. $300 million in an export oriented, raw sugar The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Does industry which will produce 400,000 tons of the committee wish to proceed, seeing it is so raw sugar per year. It will include the estab- close to 12.45 p.m.? lishment of a sugar mill and development of 2648 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 storage facilities near the port of Wyndham and which has gone through something of an on the far north coast of Western Australia. economic recession in recent years with the Under the plan, irrigated farmland in the closure of the meatworks there. So the devel- Weaber, Knox Creek and Keep River plains opment of stage 2 of the Ord will have a very will be developed to extend the Ord River strong and positive impact on the community scheme to nearly 65,000 hectares. This will of Kununurra and in Wyndham and the whole take it over the border into the Northern surrounding area of the north Kimberley, if it Territory. The Northern Territory government goes ahead. has been involved in the awarding of the Unfortunately, it is an if—if it goes ahead— contract to Wesfarmers and the Marubeni and the if, of course, is the question of native Corporation, because the second stage of the title. As it happens, there are three conflicting Ord is going to bring great economic develop- native title claims on the second stage of the ment to the Northern Territory as well as to Ord. It is a matter of great concern that, the north of Western Australia. unless these claims are resolved, then this It is proposed to set aside land for inde- great project will be held up for who knows pendent small farmers, thus allowing crop and how long—perhaps many years—and this land ownership diversity in this second stage great development will not occur. I must say development. The memorandum of under- it is quite clear that if the development of Ord standing currently being discussed with the stage 2 is put on the backburner and deferred proponents is for a feasibility study of the for years until the native title issues are project, so that all issues of controversy resolved, the responsibility will lie with those relating to the project can be dealt with. If the on the opposition benches who blocked the project is shown to be sound from a financial, passage of the government’s native title economic, technical and environmental point legislation which would have enabled these of view, stage 2 will go ahead and this will claims to be resolved in a sensible and equi- lead to the development of a world scale table way within a reasonable timeframe. If, sugar industry based around significant in fact, this does not happen, then I am sure sugarcane plantings and a sugar mill on the the people of Australia will know who to Ord River. blame for it and they will certainly bear that This will, as I have said, bring major in mind when they go to the polls, presum- economic development to east Kimberley. It ably in the latter part of this year. is anticipated there will be some 500 jobs Just for the information of the Senate, there created in the area during the construction have been no new land releases at Kununurra phase and a further 170 permanent jobs when made in the town or surrounding areas since the sugar mill is established. In addition, there the introduction of the Native Title Act in will be 550 seasonal jobs during harvest time 1993, other than a single farming block—and on the sugar plantations and a further 1,200 that resulted in extensive litigation. A major jobs created in local service industries. Hope- residential subdivision involving 200 lots has fully, some of those jobs will go to indigen- been delayed due to the impact of native title. ous people. It is hoped that indigenous people In addition, 22 light industrial lots, 10 horti- will take up some of the farmland in the cultural lots, a commercial centre and a second stage of the Ord and that Aboriginal tourism site have not been able to go ahead communities in the north will benefit from due to the slow processes of the existing this development. Native Title Act. As I have said, I am sure There will be new port and storage facilities that the voters of Australia will bear these at Wyndham and this will lead, in addition, to facts in mind when they go to the polls in the other jobs. The port of Wyndham will be next federal election. It is quite clear that it is greatly expanded. There will be dredging of thanks to the opposition and the Democrats the channel performed and much other infra- that developments—such as the Ord stage 2— structure created in that town—which is one have been delayed and that many other of the oldest towns in the north of Australia similar developments around Australia will be Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2649 similarly delayed because the government again, we come back to the issue of native amendments did not pass through the Senate. title and to the fact that the mechanism which Two weeks ago, I visited Karratha and might have resolved the blockage in the Dampier, where the Pilbara Development provision of land for workers’ homes in this Commission informed me that in the next five area has been caused by the failure of the years it is possible that some $20 billion of opposition parties to pass the government’s investment will be made in resource develop- native title amendments. And if regional ments in that area. That is an enormous development suffers as a result of this failure amount of money and it is going to be the to be able to provide homes for the workers major resource development area of Australia in the Karratha-Dampier area, the voters of if those investments are made. The possible Australia, I am sure, will remember that the projects there include: expansion, by a factor opposition and their compatriots—the Demo- of three times, of the liquefied natural gas crats and the Greens—are to blame for failing projects off the north-west coast; the develop- to pass the government’s Native Title Act ment of a petrochemical plant; and secondary amendments. downstream processing of iron ore—which Election of Senators has been a long-term objective of the Western Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— Australian government and is something Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) which we all, as Australians, should be (12.54 p.m.)—Recent speculation about the encouraging to happen. We need to not just possibility of a double dissolution raises the export iron ore but to develop it into other issue of the most appropriate method of products and get some superadded benefit to allocating short- and long-term Senate places this country from so doing. As I have said, it after an election of the full Senate. The con- would seem that Karratha-Dampier is set to stitution provides that senators should have become one of the most important industrial six-year terms and that half the Senate should areas of Australia, if all the projected devel- retire at each ordinary Senate election. In the opment in the area goes ahead. event of a double dissolution under section 57 Again, I am sorry to say that one of the of the constitution, the ordinary rotation of major hindrances to the success of these senators is disturbed and, following the resource and energy developments has been, election, the Senate is required to divide itself and is, native title. The frustration of those in into short- and long-term senators. Although the north was evident on my recent visit when the constitution requires the Senate to divide the Shire of Roebourne—the shire that covers itself in this fashion, it leaves the method of Karratha and Dampier—informed me that division into the two classes at the discretion around 2,500 building sites for workers’ of the Senate itself. homes are being held up due to native title. The Senate has had to consider the issue of The point is that unless accommodation can the most appropriate method of allocating be built for the workers of these great projects short- and long-term places on seven occa- they will become fly-in fly-out projects. That sions: once after the first Commonwealth means that they will make almost no contribu- election and then on the six occasions follow- tion to regional development, because fly-in ing double dissolutions. Traditionally, the fly-out means that workers come in for a method that the Senate has settled upon has period of two or four weeks and then they are been to divide senators on the basis of the flown back to Perth or to wherever they come order in which they were elected. from around Australia. They put no roots into After the first Commonwealth election in the communities and make no contribution to 1901, the Senate debated the most appropriate the development of those communities. method of determining short- and long-term So while these projects could go ahead senators. Under the voting system used by without land being available for worker most states—that is, single electorate block accommodation it would be at the cost of a voting, which is effectively a winner-take-all contribution to regional development. Once system—the Senate was basically faced with 2650 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 two choices. The first was to follow the At the time of debate on this bill, Senator United States tradition of dividing senators Ray, on behalf of the then government, into classes by lot. The second alternative was stressed that, if this procedure were to be used to allocate six-year terms to the three senators to allocate short- and long-term senators, it in each state who had been returned with the should be agreed to in advance of any double highest number of votes—and the Senate dissolution election. Late in 1986, Senator finally settled on this method. Ray made approaches to the then opposition One state, however, had not chosen its seeking their consideration of adopting the senators by single electorate block voting. method made possible following a section 282 Tasmania had used a form of proportional recount. The then opposition ignored the representation—the Hare-Clark system. One overture. Following the 1987 double dissolu- of its senators pointed out in the Senate tion, the Senate resolved to use the traditional debate that under the proportional representa- method to allocate short- and long-term tion system it was almost impossible to say, Senate places. in many cases, which candidates had received The coalition accused the ALP and the the highest number of votes without, in his Australian Democrats of hypocrisy, stating words, ‘a thorough scrutiny of the ballot that, having promoted a new system through papers’. Because states had used different the amendment to the Electoral Act, it ought methods of election, senators were eager to to be used. Senator Ray, again on behalf of stress that, whatever method was agreed to, it the then government, made it clear that, should not be regarded as a precedent binding although the method provided for in section future senates. 282 was preferable for allocating places, the Following the 1914 double dissolution, chamber had to agree in advance if the tradi- senators were divided in the same way. In tional method was not to be followed, because 1948, the method of electing senators was otherwise parties would adopt a wait and see changed, with parliament adopting a system approach and advocate the method that of proportional representation. Following the benefited them politically. 1951 double dissolution, the Senate agreed, Given that it is almost impossible to predict without dissent, to divide senators in the order the outcome of Senate elections under propor- in which they were elected. tional representation, and that even small In 1959, the Joint Committee of Constitu- differences in voting patterns can have a tional Review recommended amending the significant impact on the final result, the constitution to provide for constitutional opposition believes that it is appropriate for entrenchment of the method of allocating the Senate to resolve, as much as it is able, short- and long-term senators. The words the appropriate method of allocating short- were chosen carefully. The joint committee and long-term senators. recommended allocating places to senators in Since the inclusion of the provisions allow- ‘accord with their relative order of success.’ ing a half Senate recount, it has been our The committee further noted that relative view that this represents the fairest method of electoral success was different under first past allocating short- and long-term Senate places. the post and proportional representation. While proportional representation accurately Following the double dissolutions of 1974, distributes representation, it is a poor method 1975 and 1983, senators were divided in the of ranking senators according to voting traditional manner. In each case, there was no strength. Any Senate candidate reaching a dissent in relation to the method chosen. In quota is ranked ahead of a senator elected by 1984, the Commonwealth Electoral Act was the distribution of a surplus from a candidate amended. Included was a new section 282. higher on the ticket. This section provided for the conduct of a Thus, the traditional arrangement favours recount with the quota that would have minor parties. It ensures that they will receive applied had a half Senate election been held a long-term senator as soon as they achieve after a double dissolution. quota. In a double dissolution election, this Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2651 means that, provided they get over 7.69 per debate. In accordance with the normal courte- cent of the vote, they will receive a long-term sies, I, of course, provide it to the minister at senator, whereas a party which attracted 44 the table. I formally seek leave to table this per cent of the vote may only receive two document. long-term senators. Such a result is inconsis- Leave granted. tent with the principle of proportional repre- sentation. Mr Len Howard Order of election and voting strength are Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) different concepts. Order of election simply (1.07 p.m.)—I rise today to honour the pass- reflects the order in which successful candi- ing of a hero. To do this, I would like to use dates reach quota. Voting strength more the words of two people who knew Len closely resembles proportional support for Howard. One is Associate Professor Phil parties contesting the election. Jennings, Past President of the Conservation Council of Western Australia and current Although the half Senate recount method is board member of the Conservation Council, not perfect, it is a more accurate measure of and the other is Dr Nick Dunlop from the voting strength. It is a more accurate measure Brand Greens in Western Australia. of the will of the electorate than is the tradi- tional method. These were the words of Phil Jennings at Len’s funeral: Len Howard was a remarkable However, Mr Acting Deputy President, the man. He was the sort of person who left a lasting Labor Party does not support determining the impression on you even if you only met him once. method of allocating places when the result is He was a person filled with love of life and a passion for peace and justice and the environment. already known. I think such a practice encour- Len stood for these principles long before they ages coalitions of self-interest to be built became fashionable and at a time in life when most following each double dissolution election. people want to retire and slow down Len embarked on one of the greatest challenges in his life—trying If a decision is to be made on this issue, it to protect the State’s largest inland waterway from should be made now. Although it is doubtful inappropriate development. that this Senate, by resolution, can bind a For more than 20 years, in fact almost up to the future Senate, a continuing order of the day he died, Len campaigned tirelessly to protect Senate stipulating the method of allocation the Peel Inlet, Harvey Estuary and Lake Clifton. He would require an absolute majority of senators had to fight some of the most powerful and influen- in any new parliament to overturn it. Further, tial developers in our society. He lost many battles it would have persuasive effect, both in this but he won the most important one—the respect chamber and amongst the public at large, if and support of the people of Mandurah. there were a concerted attempt to alter the I first met Len in 1985 when he was already in his system after the election. seventies. He was running a campaign to protect the Creery wetlands from a canal development. He Because we acknowledge that matters invited me and a group of conservationists from affecting the election and terms of senators Perth to visit the area to observe the samphire flats. are sensitive ones, I have taken the opportuni- His enthusiasm for the area was infectious and we ty of canvassing this issue in the Senate all came away convinced that this was a very special site and one which must be conserved. chamber today. The opposition has not had any discussions about this matter with other Over the succeeding years I worked with Len on many issues including the Dawesville Cut, the Peel parties, but I do propose to present a notice Regional Park, Port Mandurah, Point Grey and the of motion tomorrow to give effect to the Creery Wetlands and Lake Clifton. These were all proposal that I have put forward on behalf of tough issues. Our opponents were wealthy, influen- the opposition here today. tial and determined, but Len was a tireless cam- paigner. He never gave up and he never let go. Further, Mr Acting Deputy President, for I remember many phone calls from Len where he the information of senators, I propose to table would begin by apologising for interrupting me and a research paper prepared at our request by then go on to say he was just putting together a the Parliamentary Library which extensively letter or a submission and needed some advice on outlines the historical antecedents to this how to word it or where to send it. I never minded 2652 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 helping him, I was full of admiration for the way and stromatolities in Lake Clifton. These tasks are he kept on going, relentlessly, when most other unfinished, and the future of the Creery Wetlands people had given the cause away. still hangs in the balance, but I am sure that Len Sometimes we would talk about politics and the realised that his friends in the conservation move- future and I was amazed at how idealistic he was ment would carry on the campaign he started more and how relevant his ideas were to the issues of than 20 years ago. today. Len was not just a leader of the conservation Len was a gentle man. He never advocated vio- movement. He had a deep commitment to peace lence or threats against his opponents. He always and he attended most of the Palm Sunday Peace tried to convince them through reason and evi- rallies in Perth in the eighties and nineties. Hewas dence. He worked tirelessly for social change. His also committed to justice and social reform and he telephone bills must have been enormous. He spoke was a long term supporter of socialism which he to everyone he could and tried to arouse public believed was the basis of a just and sustainable awareness about the issues. He had a great faith in society. human nature and never lost hope that the truth I will always remember Len as an outstanding grass would prevail. He was at his best working with roots campaigner. He motivated and inspired people ordinary people. Informing and encouraging them, with his commitment and vision. His passion for believing that real change in society comes directly the environment affected those around him and they from the people. He wrote endless press releases, have taken up where he left off. That is perhaps his submissions and letters to the editors of newspapers greatest contribution to society. The conservation with the aim of reaching the widest possible movement in Mandurah today is strong and flour- audience. And he undoubtedly succeeded in ishing and it is full of wonderful, dedicated people winning the support of the people of Mandurah for who worked with Len on his many campaigns. conserving the environment of the Peel Region. It wasn’t always that way. When Len and Doreen In recognition of his work the Conservation Coun- settled in Mandurah in 1974 it was a developer’s cil awarded him the inaugural Bessie Rischbieth paradise. Very few people raised any concerns in Award in 1994. This is the highest honour available those days about waterfront developments or the to a conservationist and Len was the first person to state of the estuary. However Len realised that receive it. Typically, in accepting the award, he unrestrained development would destroy the said that he was deeply honoured by his selection beautiful estuary which attracted people to Mandu- but he was certain that there were others who rah and in 1976 he and Brian Devereux decided to deserved it more. do something about it. They formed the Peel We have all lost a friend and a leader who was an Preservation Group. inspiration to us. I am sure that we all feel the loss Len was always very modest about his work and very deeply today because we realise that Len is he often told me how little he had managed to irreplaceable. But as time goes by we will also achieve. But the record of Len and the Peel Preser- rejoice that we knew him and that we shared in his vation Group is very impressive. The outstanding success. value of the Peel/Harvey/ Yalgorup System is now I have no doubt that his work will go on through recognised by nearly everyone in the community the many people who worked with him and were and as a result the Government and the local inspired by him and I think that is what Len would Council have taken some steps to restore and have wanted most of all. protect it. I would like to finish with the words of Dr Just over three years ago I attended a retirement Nick Dunlop who wrote the following on function in Mandurah at which the members of the Peel Preservation Group thanked Len and Doreen behalf of the Brand Greens: for the numerous contributions they had made to On Thursday 16 April 1998 veteran wetlands the conservation of the Peel area. For Len it was a campaigner, Green’s member, candidate and friend, difficult decision to step down from the leadership Len Howard, passed away. In the preceding of the PPG after 18 years at the helm, but old age fortnight he rang from Fremantle hospital about and ill health were beginning to catch up with him. things that needed to be done to save samphire He said to me at the time that he was happy to step marshes and people he couldn’t get in touch with. down knowing that the group was in good hands, He didn’t let on. but he said that he wanted to go on campaigning Len discovered the conservation significance of to stop Port Mandurah Stage 2 and the Lake Clifton what we now know is the Peel-Yalgorup Ramsar development. wetland system long before its values were recog- And that he did. Over the last three years of his nised. He campaigned for more than 20 years with life, despite failing health, Len maintained a the Peel Preservation Group to protect the estuary vigorous campaign to protect the stranded shoals and lakes from the ever growing threat of urban Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2653 encroachment, canal developments, pollution and the various authorities investigating allega- general neglect. tions of criminals actually giving gifts to ALP Although in the last few years Len claimed that members of state parliament to get them to "the world was moving too fast" and "it was time perform certain favours in the parliament. to go to pasture", he never did. During the period he agreed to be drafted as a Green’s candidate at Who can forget that photograph of Peter the age of 80, won a landmark FOI case against the Baldwin, when he was a Labor minister, Federal Government and some environmental coming out of a Labor meeting with blood consultants, and relentlessly pursued the rescue of streaming down his face where he had been a productive marshland area from a canal develop- set upon by other members of the ALP? They ment. The spectacle of a persistent, octogenarian, are the matters that we have come to accept pensioner driving powerful developers, dubious consultants, self-serving councillors, journalists and as normal in the ALP in Victoria and New government ministers to distraction was truly South Wales. inspirational. It is with some regret that I recount that this The Peel-Yalgorup region is the most important ALP malaise has come to Queensland. Re- waterbird habitat area in Western Australia. It is grettably, the current state leader of the ALP, April and the sandpipers from north-east Asia have Mr Beattie, either is part of it or is incapable fattened on Len’s precious Creery mud-flats. They and too weak to do anything about it. As a have taken flight in purposeful flocks to cross the world and find breeding grounds on the tundra. matter of public interest, I want to raise in Perhaps Len’s gone with them this time. this chamber today the disgraceful goings-on of the Australian Labor Party branches in the Australian Labor Party: Selection of town that I come from—that is, Townsville in Candidates North Queensland. Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- Mr Acting Deputy President, you will land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister remember that the government of Queensland for the Environment) (1.16 p.m.)—This changed when a Liberal candidate was elected session of the Senate is for senators to speak at the Mundingburra by-election. That Liberal about matters of public interest. Nothing candidate enabled the Queensland coalition to could be more in the public interest than the take government. That by-election came way in which political parties go about their around because there was an improper elec- own business in selecting candidates to offer tion in the original contest in Mundingburra, themselves to the Australian public at times so determined by the Court of Disputed of election. Returns. We know—and it is very well known Following the Court of Disputed Returns publicly—of the enormous problems the ALP overturning the Mundingburra result in the has in its preselection battles. What happened 1995 state election, the Liberal Party again re- in Victoria with the branch stacking and vote endorsed Mr Frank Tanti. The man who ran rigging is legend. for the Labor Party at that general election was a Mr Ken Davies, who was a minister in Senator Conroy—You’re not serious! the Goss government. The Labor Party Senator IAN MACDONALD—Senator thought, for various factional reasons I think, Conroy interjects and, of course, he is one of that Mr Davies should be pushed aside in the the principal branch stackers—so the media by-election and they would get a glamour say. I perhaps would not say that had it not candidate to run in Mundingburra against Mr been for such confirmation from the media— Frank Tanti. Senator Conroy, Senator Ray and Senator The glamour candidate chosen by the Labor Carr; it is just legend. You cannot pick up a Party backroom boys was none other than paper any day without understanding, without Tony Mooney, the popular mayor of Towns- knowing, the branch stacking, the rorting, in ville. Tony is not a bad fellow, and I think he the Victorian ALP branch. does a reasonably good job. But he was put In New South Wales it is not much better. into this particular contest after a very diffi- At this very moment we have the spectacle of cult preselection battle. So Mayor Tony 2654 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Mooney became the glamour candidate for Senator IAN MACDONALD—Not one of the Labor Party, causing a lot of ill feeling, I your guys, Senator Conroy. Actually, they might say, in relation to the preselection. The need you up there because the Right gets defeated preselection candidate, Mr Ken done like a dinner every time in Queensland. Davies, subsequently made allegations of But you distract me. We had Mr Mike bribery. He told the world and anyone who Reynolds, the former mayor of Townsville. wanted to listen that the Labor Party had He is an interesting guy and, again, quite a actually offered him trips to tropical islands nice fellow. He resigned for some reason. and other inducements so that he would not What was he going to do? He had been a run in the by-election. lecturer at the university. Guess what hap- Senator Conroy interjecting— pened? He was able to get himself a job, supported by the then federal Labor govern- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT ment, down here in Canberra. He moved here (Senator Hogg)—Order! Senator Conroy. for a couple of years. He left Townsville and Senator IAN MACDONALD—But he became a Canberra citizen. chose to stand as an independent and, of Of course the Queensland state government course, he has suffered the penalty since then, at the time, the Goss Labor government, made and will suffer that for the rest of his life. sure he kept his sinecure as chairman of the Senator Conroy—How about Parer? He’s Townsville Port Authority, which was rather suffered. interesting because he was living and working The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— in Canberra but he was still chairman of the Order! Senator Conroy, please. Townsville Port Authority—and someone Senator IAN MACDONALD—But we had used to fly him up to Townsville every couple the glamour candidate against Frank Tanti— of weeks to attend to that. But that is an good old battler Frank, a great friend of mine interesting sideline. and a great representative for Mundingburra. Anyway, Mike Reynolds thought he might Of course, Frank Tanti did the glamour like to be the state candidate for Townsville, candidate, the mayor of Townsville, like a so he nominated. But the Right wanted to put dinner. But there was a lot of dissatisfaction someone in so, again, we had Tony Mooney, in the branches of the ALP over that particu- the popular mayor. He also thought that was lar matter. his seat by divine right. So we had the presel- So we then come to the other seats in ection contest between Mike Reynolds, former Townsville. For those not familiar with the mayor from the Left, and Tony Mooney, state scene up there, there is the seat of current mayor from the Right. Mundingburra, now held by Mr Frank Tanti; As a result of that preselection, a lot of there is the seat of Townsville, which was nasty comments went around. There were a held by Mr Geoff Smith, a minister. Mr Smith lot of nasty rumours. There was a charge announced that he was not going to stand brought against Mayor Mooney’s numbers again. I think he was given a bit of a shove man, Mr Andy Kehoe, for defrauding and and he moved on but Geoff is not a bad guy rorting the electoral system. either. Then we have the preselection contest. Senator Conroy interjecting— Senator Conroy interjecting— The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Order! Senator Conroy. Order! Senator Conroy. Senator IAN MACDONALD—On the day Senator IAN MACDONALD—Who was of the court case, after pleading his innocence the preselection contest between in the state all the way through, Mr Kehoe meekly went seat of Townsville? Let me tell you: there was in and said, ‘I plead guilty.’ Some unkind the former mayor of Townsville, Mr Mike people suggested that he did that because if Reynolds from the Left. the court case had run ahead there would have Senator Conroy interjecting— been all these allegations involving Mike Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2655

Reynolds, the candidate, and Mayor Tony membership fees had been paid in exchange Mooney and why it was that Mike Reynolds for electoral support. happened to end up winning the preselection There were allegations in this article that for that seat of Townsville. So there was a ‘ALP sources say that they are an indication charge and there was a conviction of an ALP of massive vote tampering across the state.’ numbers man for rigging the vote of the state Nevertheless, in spite of all these allegations electorate of Townsville. and rumours, and investigations by the state But now we go on to the third of the seats branch of the ALP of people who do not live in the Townsville area; I have mentioned in particular areas having a vote in the presel- Mundingburra and Townsville. The third seat ection; in cases when they did not even know is the state seat of Thuringowa. There have they had voted—some of them did not even always been a lot of rumours involving that realise they were members of the ALP; I contest for preselection. The original preselec- know this is not news to Senator Conroy who tion candidates, as I recall, were a bloke is obviously aware of these sorts of things, named Gillman and a former Townsville City but this happened in my own city of Towns- Council alderman, Ms Karen Ehrmann. ville—Ms Ehrmann was endorsed as the Right from the start, there were a lot of Labor candidate for Townsville. allegations about malpractice in the preselec- She was endorsed because the sitting tion. Karen Ehrmann from the Left won the member, Mr Ken McElligott—a nice fellow, preselection. Ken; in the past he has been a health minister Senator Conroy interjecting— and, as far as ALP politicians go, is quite a Senator IAN MACDONALD—There we decent representative and a very decent are, Senator Conroy, you have been done over man—got a bit annoyed with all of this vote by Senator Faulkner’s lot yet again. Karen rigging going on and thought it was time to Ehrmann from the Left won the preselection. move on. He is quoted as saying, and it is the Then the allegations started flowing. The ALP sort of thing that Ken would say, ‘It’s time to had a number of internal investigations where step aside and give young parliamentarians a ALP members spilled their all about what go.’ He was saying, ‘I’ve had it; it’s time I happened. A lot of these documents came moved on. We want to let young people in. from ALP members to Frank Tanti’s office I’ve had my day; let’s get some young people and to other Liberal Party people in Towns- in.’ ville, and they have been read out in the state So Ken did that. And, as one would expect, parliament. They are all there on the record. like Keith De Lacy, the former Treasurer in I will just mention a couple of them. I am Queensland who used to represent the seat of reading an article in the Courier-Mail that Cairns, for the last year they have done said: absolutely nothing. There is a decent coalition government in Queensland, but Keith De Affidavits from several members of the ALP claimed that preselection ballot papers were taken, Lacy in the electorate of Cairns and Ken completed and lodged without the consent of McElligott in the electorate of Thuringowa residents. really have not done much. They have not It said further: been interested in their constituents; they are on a sort of pre-retirement leave. They did not Ms Ehrmann had paid ALP membership fees in appear in the press; there were no press exchange for votes. releases. They didn’t go to public functions as Senator Conroy, you would know about that all politicians do, and, of course, the candi- sort of thing in the Labor Party. dates were turning up instead—Ms Ehrmann. Senator Conroy—Oh dear, oh dear! But, lo and behold, a few months ago, Ken Senator IAN MACDONALD—The Couri- McElligott suddenly reappeared on the scene. er-Mail also reported about a couple who had Suddenly he started to issue press releases claimed that a blank ballot paper had been again; suddenly he started to attend functions. collected from their home and that their We all thought, ‘There’s something funny 2656 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 going on here. Perhaps there is some truth in for Workplace Relations and Small Business those rumours that Ms Ehrmann was involved (Mr Reith) and his staff, and the Patrick in vote rigging. Perhaps there is some truth in Stevedores company. It was described by the rumours that the ALP in Townsville has Senator Faulkner yesterday as a symbiotic followed Graham Richardson’s dictum of relationship, and so it is. Both Mr Reith and ‘whatever it takes’ to get their factional mates Patrick are wrapped up together, their futures into parliament.’ inextricably linked. But how much do we I have to say to you that, in spite of all of know about Patrick Stevedores, the shadowy these rumours, Peter Beattie, the opposition group so hell-bent on sacking their entire leader, because he is simply too weak, went work force that they will do and say any- along with it. He would not do anything about thing? these rumours, and they were rumours sup- It does not take much digging to come up ported by affidavits from ALP members. Peter with the real and nasty details about this Beattie—absolutely useless, absolutely group of corporate felons, because the legiti- weak—refused to do anything about it. mate business community of this country is so What he did do is that he said, as recently disgusted by the industrial and corporate as a couple of days ago, that he was going to tactics of this bunch that they have been go along and launch Ms Ehrmann’s campaign freely talking to the Labor Party. So let us for the state electorate of Thuringowa and that consider the history of the people from Pat- he was going to do it this coming Saturday. rick and the related companies, Lang Corp, He has said that he has confidence in Ms Jamison Equities and Brencorp. Ehrmann. Ms Ehrmann in fact said: I welcome the launch of my campaign by Peter I have spoken in this place a number of Beattie. It is another slap in the face for the times regarding my understanding that the member for Mundingburra, Frank Tanti— National Crime Authority are currently inves- I am not sure how she got to that— tigating the sale of $US105 million worth of who has attempted to undermine me with lies and Elders convertible bonds to BHP which innuendos. generated a profit to the bond holders of $A78 million. I believe that there are strong And so it went on. So we have this guy who grounds to say that Chris Corrigan and Peter was too old to stay there retiring, Karen Scanlon were the architects and executors of Ehrmann saying that she was going to be the this sham transaction to defraud the share- candidate and Beattie saying she was going to holders and creditors of Elders and regulatory be the candidate. And what happened yester- authorities. day? Last night, Karen Ehrmann received sum- I believe there is a strong case that Peter monses for breaches related to vote rigging. Scanlon and Chris Corrigan conspired to And guess who is the bloke who popped up defraud the shareholders of Elders of $78 very early this morning to say that he would million; secretly used Bankers Trust funds to be the candidate? The previous member, who fund the purchase of the convertible bonds; only a few short months ago had said it was knew at all times the beneficial owners of the time to step aside and give a young guy a go. convertible bonds; failed to disclose the Of course, the young guy who is having a go names of the beneficial owners to either and who will win that seat is David Moore, Bankers Trust or the Elders shareholders; the Liberal candidate. But again, the ALP— devised the scheme to defraud the sharehold- (Time expired) ers of Elders; and in conjunction with Richard Wiesener executed the proposal. They are Patrick Stevedores currently the subject of investigation by the Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.31 p.m.)— National Crime Authority. Knowing this to be The Australian public has seen considerable the case, John Howard and Peter Reith chose evidence of the closeness of the relationship Peter Scanlon and Chris Corrigan as their between the Howard government, the Minister partners to sack 1,400 waterside workers. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2657

When the NCA investigations of two organised the placement to conceal executive payments from Elders to Mr Alan Hawkins, participation. Funding was provided by the totalling $66.5 million, came to light, both Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank, Bankers John Elliott and Peter Scanlon denied that the Trust and Credit Agricole. The interest pay- transactions were shams and gave long, ments on the borrowed funds used to purchase detailed accounts to the NCA under oath as the convertible bonds was met by Elders, not to why the transactions had been made. Ken by the beneficial owners who incurred no Jarrett and Peter Scanlon told the NCA that risk. BHP purchased the $US105 million the transactions had been done with their parcel of Elders convertible bonds on 10 and knowledge on John Elliott’s instructions and 11 April 1985, which produced a profit to the for a genuine reason. beneficial owners of $78 million. The evidence shows that the transactions In his statement to the court Ken Jarrett again were a sham and that by the end of the case said—and I quote: the sham nature of the transactions was not I was later told by Elliott that my share had been even disputed by the accused. Peter Scanlon reduced in favour of Scanlon because Scanlon felt admitted on the day of his acquittal that the he deserved more than his original allocation for transactions were shams but claimed they had the pivotal role he had played in generating the been used to discharge a debt genuinely and profit. legitimately owed to Hawkins; one that he has According to Peter Stussi, an accounts manag- never been able to produce paperwork for— er with Bank Cantrade in Switzerland, he says it got lost—but is a genuine transaction recalls significant deposits coming in to a that they owed the debt on. Scanlon also number of bank accounts at the time when the claimed that the choice of a sham vehicle for convertible bonds were sold in 1986. Ken discharging the debt had been the choice of Jarrett told the NCA that after the profits were Ken Jarrett alone. placed in the bank accounts the nominees As the prosecution case statement makes names that operated the bank account with clear, Peter Scanlon lied to the NCA in giving fictitious directors was changed and Peter evidence about the payments to Hawkins; Stussi has confirmed these events. Peter Peter Scanlon lied to further the conspiracy to Scanlon and John Elliott went to Switzerland defraud the shareholders of Elders; Peter on a number of occasions to discuss the Scanlon and John Elliott lied because they operation of these accounts. This is despite knew that if the NCA became aware of the the fact that both Elliott and Scanlon maintain true reasons of the payments to Hawkins that they do not know the beneficial owners of might attract attention to the true beneficial those bank accounts. owners of this $US105 million parcel of Senator Ian Macdonald—Why would you convertible bonds. In June 1984, Elders made believe him? an issue of $US160 million of convertible bonds to raise capital and to enable executives Senator CONROY—Believe Elliott? You to take up a financial interest that would be would have to be pretty much a mug. The self-funded. names of the beneficial owners of the profits In his statement to the court, Ken Jarrett, from the sale of the convertible bonds is the then business associate intricately in- currently a matter of investigation for the volved in this, said: NCA. The role of Bankers Trust was critical. The concept for the convertible bonds issue The scheme to finance executive participation was and the interest rate conditions attached to the proposed initially by Bankers Trust. bond issue were developed by Rowan Ross The scheme to finance executive participation and David Ryan of Bankers Trust who report- was proposed by Bankers Trust, whose chief ed direct to chief executive Chris Corrigan. executive at the time was Chris Corrigan. Richard Wiesener acted for the three shelf Of the $US160 million, $US105 million companies incorporated in the Bahamas: was taken up by the executives of Elders. AMST, Bartex Securities and West Fin Close Scanlon associate Richard Wiesener Company who, he said, did not want to use 2658 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 their own money to pay for the Eurobonds Allegedly during the 1980s Abe Goldberg and that his clients did not want to be identi- took over a number of valuable Australian fied. Funding of the convertible bonds was textile brands such as Speedo, Bradmill, King organised by BT who provided some of the Gee and Exacto. He stripped those assets of funds along with Hong Kong and Shanghai all value and left them as shells of debt. Bank and Credit Agricole. BT organised the Goldberg is alleged to have exported many interest rate exposure with Wiesener. John millions of dollars through a number of com- Elliott and Peter Scanlon shifting the interest plex company deals, including through com- rate credit risk to Elders rather than to the panies in Monaco—which rings a bell bond holders. again—and is now living high on the hog on There appears to have been no disclosure of those stolen shareholder funds. And what role this risk to Elders shareholders and in this did Peter Scanlon play in this? He was a case the non-disclosure would be grossly member of the central company board and if improper. This manoeuvre enabled BT to he was fulfilling his duties as a director he argue that it did not have to check who the should have known exactly what Goldberg beneficial owner of the companies located in was up to. What is more, anyone who has the Bahamas were because Elders was under- ever seen Peter Scanlon operate in Harlin, writing the credit risk albeit without their own Elders, AFP Investments or Langcorp know shareholders’ knowledge. BT’s lawyers that Scanlon is not a passive director. He is requested a letter of confirmation that was very active directing and controlling corporate produced by Richard Wiesener. The National strategy, take-overs, financing, shareholdings Crime Authority have a copy of this letter. and money trails. In fact, it is well known that When Chris Corrigan got the letter from Abe Goldberg was impressed by Scanlon’s Richard Wiesener saying that Wiesener’s corporate strategies. Colleen Ryan and Karen clients were not Elders directors, Chris Maley wrote in the Sydney Morning Herald Corrigan used this letter as an excuse to avoid on the 30 April 1994 that: carrying out a probity check that would have Former close associates talk about how Goldberg was enthralled by the glamour and the financial disclosed the real identity of those to whom wizardry of the AFP crew that included Wiesener, BT was lending the money. Scanlon, John Gerahty. Goldberg did not stick to BT received large commissions as a conse- his knitting. He was entranced by the entrepreneurs. quence of this illegal and improper transac- And the entrepreneurs were also entranced tion. The purchase of the Elders convertible with Abe Goldberg and his tactics. Scanlon bonds and their ultimate sale at a profit of has used Goldberg-like asset stripping tech- $78 million would not have been possible niques on the Patrick Stevedores labour hire without Chris Corrigan. During this period companies, the only difference being the Chris Corrigan gained Scanlon’s confidence, desired end result, an easy sacking of the and it is not surprising that he subsequently work force. appointed Scanlon as head of Langcorp. Similarly, another close Goldberg associate Let us turn from Corrigan’s and Scanlon’s had a $55 million debt repaid by Goldberg involvement with John Elliott and Har- immediately before the Linter Group empire lin/Elders to involvement with another of the went under. There are clear similarities with ‘big six’ of the 1980s corporate scam cases. the behaviour of Patrick’s bankers 15 minutes Records from the ASC show that Peter before liquidation of the labour hire com- Scanlon was a director of the Linter Group panies late at night. during the 1980s. Linter Group is well known But Peter Scanlon did not leave his Linter as the corporate scam vehicle of one Abraham experience behind when he left the board. He Goldberg now in exile in Poland and still took with him at least seven former directors being sought by corporate regulators in this and officers of Linter Group into his own country over losses at least as great as those companies. ASC records indicate that the incurred by Christopher Skase. Greater than following names show up on both Linter $750 million. Group records and those of Scanlon com- Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2659 panies such as AFP Investment Corp Ltd, over your eyes so easily? Whatever the case, Jamison Equity Ltd, Brencorp Pty Ltd and we could easily say the Howard government Patrick Stevedores companies, including the deserves everything they get, which so far has labour hire companies: David Fitzsimons, been abject failure and derision. Unfortunate- Basil Sellers, Ronald Melgaard, William ly, Australia did not deserve the debacle this Gerahty, Robin Crawford, David Vaux and government has produced on the nation’s Evan Williams. waterfronts through its disastrous partnership Clearly those former close associates of with Chris Corrigan and Peter Scanlan. Abe Goldberg had important and valuable Competition Reform skills for Peter Scanlon’s future corporate shenanigans. Peter Scanlon and Chris Senator BOSWELL (Queensland—Leader Corrigan stand condemned for their past of the National Party of Australia in the corporate malpractices, for their personal Senate) (1.46 p.m.)—Chair, that was an history and their associates left over from extraordinary speech. Accusations have been their Elders and Linter involvement. These cobbled together and it is the worse conspira- two have considerable form and the legitimate cy theory I have ever heard. I would like to business community have been deafening in pull the speech to pieces bit by bit, but their lack of support for Langcorp’s corporate perhaps at another time. manoeuvrings. I rise to refer to speeches and warnings It is now clear that Peter Reith is a conniv- issued by Mr Graeme Samuel, President of ing co-conspirator with corporate crooks. the National Competition Council, as reported in the press in recent months. I ask: by what The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT authority is Mr Samuel able to threaten the (Senator Patterson)—Order! I ask you to public, industries, the professions and, in fact, withdraw that. It is a reflection on the every inhabitant of the states, that schools, minister in the other chamber. hospitals and police funding will be unavail- Senator CONROY—I withdraw. able from state coffers because of the lack of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— competition reforms? Thank you. Mr Samuel, I point out to you that the NCC Senator CONROY—Peter Reith head is not a policy maker. You are beyond the hunted the corporate world for the worst reach of the electorate but the electorate remaining corporate crooks from the 1980s expects us, the politicians, to point out to you who he knew would not hesitate to break the where you are wrong in no uncertain terms. law in order to achieve his ends— Is it not deliberate scare mongering to assume the loss of hospitals, schools and police? The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Surely these utterances exceed any of the Order! That is a reflection on Minister Reith. functions or responsibilities given to him or I ask you to withdraw it. It imputes a motive his council under any legislation. to him. I ask you to withdraw it. Withdraw it, Senator Conroy. To quote from the NCC annual report, the responsibility of the NCC is to assess whether Senator CONROY—I withdraw. jurisdictions—the states and territories—have The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— made satisfactory progress in implementing Thank you. their reform commitments and to make rec- Senator CONROY—The Howard govern- ommendations to the Commonwealth Treasur- ment stands condemned for having hitched er about national competition policy payments their wagon so closely to corporate fiends to the states and territories. such as Scanlan and Corrigan. Does the Mr Samuel in his public utterances has government now say they knew of the history overstepped the mark and is pre-empting and of Corrigan and Scanlan and willingly formed prejudicing reviews which state governments a partnership with these men on the water- are undertaking. Under the 1995 NCP agree- front? Or did they dupe you, pulled the wool ment, the state and territory governments in 2660 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 relation to the legislation review agreed to sugar industry working party review was a review and, where appropriate, to reform all total industry review. It had 74 recommenda- laws which restrict competition and ensure tions, one being the retention of the single that any new restrictions provide a net com- desk marketing of the Queensland Sugar munity benefit. The three tranches are as- Corporation. It was a decision agreed by the sessed on 1 July 1997, 1999 and 2001, with growers, the millers, the refiners and also the payments to state and territory governments end-users who are the customers of the single of around $16 billion over the period 2005 to desk seller. This one desk selling, which 2006. allows the forward selling of sugar, has driven Coming out as he has this year, the tone of this industry to be hugely successful. It is a his comments can only be construed as threats $2 billion export industry today. Where is the to the states ahead of the delivery of their increased productivity when one mill is set reviews, as bully boy tactics to the states, to against the other, driving the price down to the affected industries and to the professions international buyers? concerned. He has left no-one out: liquor In the circumstances, accusations of politi- regulations, newsagents, chemists—the back- cal expediency are outrageous. Surely the bone of many small communities. Your call purpose of reforms is not to destroy industries for deregulation destroys them. You transfer and destroy communities which depend on their business to large supermarkets in neigh- these industries. What about consideration of bouring towns and destroy the smaller town the job losses and the lack of replacement with its pub, newsagent and chemist serving jobs in country Australia? What about indus- the local community. try being the sole economic base of many What sort of communities are we going to rural areas. Where are these factors taken into end up with? There will be no enterprise, no consideration in Mr Samuel’s pre-determined opportunity for small business people. There judgments? What about consideration of the is a loss of competition from small business. reality of the markets that primary industries He makes no mention of the valid consider- have to sell into? ation that national competition policy gives to social factors as part of the public benefit The state government reviews of the dairy consideration. industries are due this year in New South Mr Samuel last week gave a speech in Wales and Queensland. State governments are Adelaide to shake up the professional groups legitimately allowed to take into consideration and local governments. He has also attacked the public benefit test. State governments are statutory marketing reforms. His complaints elected by the people and are in a far better are extraordinary. He maintains that there position to know the public benefits of an should not be any industry representatives on industry arrangement than a council sitting in review panels, that the council is opposed to Melbourne. Is it the responsibility of elected the appointment of industry representatives. state governments to govern and consider the He says that ‘there is a risk of the review needs of other constituents and the wellbeing panel being captured by vested interest.’ How of the state as part of their elected role as else is the relevant total picture of an industry representatives and deliverers of good govern- to be given if it is not by someone involved ment to their people? in it? Maybe when it comes to the implemen- Mr Samuel is forgetting the public benefit tation of competition policy, an interested test when he makes his threat of withholding party could also be defined as economists the loot. Where are the assessments that have who have a direct interest in the implementa- followed the deregulation of certain industries tion of their current pure ideology. such as the egg industry where the consumer Mr Samuel is particularly critical of the has not received lower prices, the producer review into the sugar, rice and barley indus- has received lower prices with the price tries. In February he made accusations of benefit picked up by the retailer because they political expediency affecting decisions. The have huge market power? Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2661

The same will happen with the dairy indus- market and the supermarkets take advantage try with the producer screwed down by the of the strength of their enterprise and deal large processors and the supermarket chains. with the producers. Only the big can survive as big chains tender The consequences are that the production to big processors who are the only ones who side continues to collapse, not being able to can meet these contracts. What about the survive at these prices. Production and quality closure of smaller processing plants, whether decline as breeders’ stock is disposed of and dairy or sugar, which are the mainstay of producers struggle to maintain some sort of rural economies? viability. Services are closed, their investment Recent years have seen the growth of the value is lost and vital export earnings are lost big—and you have to be big to compete in a to the nation. marketplace dominated by the big. Where are Is this the whole picture that Mr Samuel the assessments that follow from deregulation should allow the states to consider—vital of primary industries when in Australia the factors such as the survival of industries in reality is they must sell to a domestic market rural areas and their processing plants when controlled by three large retailers? The three considering the public benefit of arrangements large supermarket chains control nearly 80 per like the Queensland Sugar Corporation or the cent of the domestic retail grocery market. Rice Marketing Board? These retailers are provided with their own protection. Their monopoly power is beyond Mr Samuel’s comments are unveiled threats. any intervention of the Hilmer competition I say to Mr Samuel: let the state governments reforms. Hilmer competition rules maintain and their elected representatives play the competition still exists with three large gro- game and you can keep the score. If you want cery buyers. In reality there is no competition to be a politician stand for the position or stay for the sellers. out of politics. Mr Samuel, let the process work as it should with the state governments. The Hilmer reforms give the three large Your threats should not prevent state govern- retailers their own market arrangements and ments from doing their job and looking at they receive their own form of protection. social and regional issues and considering the Every beef producer, pork producer, egg public benefit factor in any competition producer, vegetable and fruit grower has the reform decisions. same story of being captive to the three large retail buyers where they are 80 per cent of QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE grocery retail market. Budget 1998-99 Domestic prices are set by them. Control over product specifications are set by them Senator COOK—My question is to the with expensive penalties the discretion of Assistant Treasurer. I refer the minister to the their buyers if product specifications are not statement made by Mr Costello in June 1995 met. All power rests with the buyer. The when he said: absolute right to have a buyer for your pro- . . . the first thing we’ll do is we’ll have to deal duct depends on playing exactly to the rules with the current account deficit. of the big chains—rules that can be changed Is this how the government deals with the at any time by the buyer. Ask any pork current account deficit—by creating a record producer or a beef producer struggling to deficit of $31 billion and a record foreign survive in the totally deregulated selling debt of $222 billion? When will the govern- environment. The sellers are economic cap- ment deal with the current account deficit tives of the near monopoly powers of the rather than increase it? Does the minister three large retailers. Beef producers have been stand by Mr Costello’s further statement that: selling below the cost of production for the . . . you can’t have high growth in this country past three years. Supermarkets control 40 per when you’ve got a current account deficit that runs cent of all retail beef sales in Australia. The over this country month after month with $2b supermarkets set the price for the wholesale deficits. 2662 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Does the government stand by the Treasurer’s Senator Conroy—We asked you a question statement when it is running deficits on an about debt and you won’t answer. average of $2.5 billion month after month? Senator KEMP—You ask me about debt. Senator KEMP—Senator Cook, that is Foreign debt, as we know, exploded under the astonishing after what has virtually been Labor Party. There is no question that under universally acclaimed as a superb budget. the Labor Party, with the massive deficits Some of the journalists have referred to it as under the treasurership of Mr Keating, there a great budget—a budget in tune with the was an explosion of foreign debt and no-one times. I have to say, Senator Cook, there is no has argued that. That is one of the problems greater endorsement for the quality of this that this government has had to cope with, budget than that which comes from looking and one of the problems that we are coping at the doleful faces on the Labor Party and with particularly well. I suggest to the Labor the appalling leadership that you have re- party: go back and read the press this morn- ceived over the last two years. We are well ing; go back and read the transcripts of the aware that there is a crisis in Asia, and we are TV commentators; look at the enormous range well aware that the effect of that crisis is to of very positive comments that this govern- impact on the balance of payments. Equally, ment is receiving for its very responsible Senator Cook, it has been pointed out by behaviour. You would be better served, rather others— than with the sort of nitpicking that Senator The PRESIDENT—Senator, your remarks Cook is indulging in. should be addressed to the chair, not directly Senator COOK—Madam President, I ask to the questioner. a supplementary question. I note your answer, Senator KEMP—Madam President, I was Minister, but I also note that Mr Howard, Mr pointing out to Senator Cook that the budget Costello and Mr Fischer have been saying in papers very clearly explain the nature of the recent months that the Australian economy is current account deficit, and the fact that this fireproofed from the Asian contagion. It is is a different type of current account deficit interesting that you should raise that excuse to the blow-outs that were experienced under now. Minister, can you explain why your the Labor Party. Those blow-outs, as you will prediction for the current account deficit is be aware, were driven by very high domestic 5.25 per cent of GDP as compared with the demand, high inflation and asset price explo- prediction of the Governor of the Reserve sion. It is very clear, and we have acknow- Bank of Australia, Mr Macfarlane, who has ledged this in the budget papers, that where it at six per cent? Is the difference between there is a major downturn in Asia—where your prediction and that of Mr Macfarlane many of our major export markets are—this due to methodology; is it due to different clearly will have an impact on exports, and it judgments or is it just a case of political will clearly have an impact on the current expediency? account deficit. Senator KEMP—Senator Cook, I think if The answer to Senator Cook is best given you read the budget papers carefully you will today by the enormous plaudits that the see that the 5.25 per cent is a year figure—an Treasurer has received for this budget: a average figure. Mr Macfarlane may have been budget which is responsible; a budget which referring to a different time period. It could is in tune with the times; and a budget which well be a timing factor, but I think the projec- reflects the tough measures—which we have tions by the Reserve Bank and the projections acknowledged—which we have had to take to by the Treasury are broadly consistent. I urge repair the massive fiscal deficit which was left people in the Labor Party, if they have any to this country by Labor. I suggest that the doubts about this budget, to read very careful- Labor Party, rather than trying to make mean ly the press comments this morning. You will and spiteful comments about a great budget, see, once again, that the Labor Party is com- would be better off to draw the lesson— pletely out of kilter with national sentiment. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2663

Budget 1998-99 Labor and down to 7.7 per cent with the Senator CHAPMAN—My question is coalition. Unemployment has fallen to its directed to the Leader of the Government in lowest level in eight years—that is, since the the Senate. The coalition government was Labor recession that Mr Keating said we had elected on a platform to be economically to have. And that has all been achieved responsible, to reduce debt, to increase sav- without tax increases—no increases in income ings and to assist families and small business. tax, no increases in company tax, and no new Will the government leader inform the Senate increases in wholesale sales tax. how last night’s budget builds upon outstand- Compare the leadership. Look at the record ing progress already made by the Howard of the alternative Prime Minister. When Mr government and how the budget has restored Beazley was minister for employment, one confidence to the Australian economy which million Australians were out of work and was so badly undermined by 13 years of there was an 11.2 per cent unemployment Labor government? rate. When he was minister for finance, there Senator HILL—Certainly. This budget was a $10.3 billion budget deficit—record again demonstrates that this is a government high budget deficits. Government debt grew of economic and fiscal credibility, which is in to nearly $80 billion over five years. What a stark contrast to the former Labor government record to stand by and to put yourself up on which is now in opposition. It demonstrates as an alternative Prime Minister in this coun- again that the government in office, the try. There is the contrast. If Labor were back Howard government, is the only alternative in in government, what would you have? You Australian politics which has a policy of would have billions of dollars of debt again. economic responsibility. Senator Cook interjecting— That has been recognised overwhelmingly, Senator HILL—We would be dangerously as Senator Kemp said, Madam President, but exposed to things such as the Asian crisis, I will just remind you of two organisations Senator Cook. There would be higher interest and their expressions last night. The Business rates, higher unemployment and higher taxes Council of Australia said: because that is the way that Labor does This is a Budget that is absolutely right for the business. That is its record. What is so disap- times. Most importantly, the Howard Government pointing is that, although Mr Gareth Evans has honoured its promise to the Australian people has owned up and said, ‘Yes, we did leave by delivering a Budget surplus. this huge debt,’ Senator Cook continues to The Australian Chamber of Commerce and deny it. Industry said: Before the election, Senator Cook denied This is a good Budget which leaves the Australian that there was a deficit. He assured the Aus- economy stronger and more resilient. This is a tralian people that the budget would be in Budget which will help the Australian economy surplus. Since the election, he has denied that onto a more productive path to the future. The Government, having set out on this path two years there was a deficit. It is time for Senator ago, has stayed on course. The benefits are now Cook to rise to his feet and say, ‘I misled the there for all to see. people before the election and I have misled What are these benefits? Labor’s $10.3 billion the people since the election.’ Only then will black hole has now been turned into a $2.7 Senator Cook start to have the credibility to billion surplus. We now have record low justify his asking his first question. interest rates of about 6.5 per cent, saving the Senator CHAPMAN—Madam President, average Australian home buyer $320 a month, I ask a supplementary question. Would the or $3,800 per year. Leader of the Government in the Senate Small business overdraft interest rates are inform the Senate of community reaction to now down to 7.7 per cent, perhaps the lowest last night’s budget? ever. Compare that with Labor’s achievement Senator HILL—Madam President, that of over 20 per cent—over 20 per cent with would take the whole hour of question time, 2664 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 but I will give you just a few more examples. welcomed in the community. Senator Mackay, The Institute of Chartered Accounts said: you seemed to be saying that there was a fall The Treasurer’s Budget, which delivers an under- in growth this year. Is that what you said? lying surplus of $2.7 billion during the next finan- Senator Mackay—No, I didn’t say that! cial year, is a responsible and encouraging reaction to the present economic situation. Senator KEMP—You said— On tourism, the Tourism Council of Australia The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp! commented: Senator KEMP—Madam President, I am A record increase in funding for tourism in trying to get some clarification from Senator tonight’s Budget is good news for the industry. Mackay because I did think she said that Opposition senators interjecting— there was a fall in growth this year. Growth Senator HILL—The Minerals Council is rising this year, Senator Mackay. Haven’t said: you read the budget figures? The Federal Government should be congratulated. The PRESIDENT—Order! Address the The fiscal management performance is good news. chair, please. Don’t shout across the chamber. The housing industry said: Senator KEMP—I am intrigued by a The Federal Government’s commitment to a question asked by a Labor Party senator that substantial budget surplus has to be welcomed as indicates to this chamber that growth is going the right defence for Australia against the Asian to fall this year. I just think it is absolutely problems. astonishing. Please note that, Senator Cook. On aged care, Opposition senators interjecting— what did the Council on the Ageing say, Senator KEMP—That is right, growth is Senator Cook? It said: predicted at three per cent. Senator Mackay Health care is one of the most important public said that growth was falling. policy issues for older people. The government’s focus on this area in the budget is welcome. Senator Mackay—No, I did not! (Time expired) Senator KEMP—All I am saying to Sena- tor Mackay is: be very careful when you take Budget 1998-99 questions from the questions committee. Senator MACKAY—My question is to the Opposition senators interjecting— Assistant Treasurer. In the first Howard budget, the Treasurer forecast employment The PRESIDENT—There are far too many growth of 1½ per cent; the outcome was 1¼ interjections. Senator Mackay, you will have per cent. Last year, the forecast for employ- an opportunity to ask a supplementary ques- ment growth was two per cent; the outcome tion if you wish. was again 1¼ per cent. So, in the last two Senator KEMP—As Senator Mackay will budgets, the government got it wrong to the be aware, the figures in the budget papers tune of tens of thousands of jobs. Can the show that the unemployment rate at the end minister explain how the government can of next year is predicted to come down to 7¾ predict higher employment growth from 1998 per cent, which is a further fall on the current to 1999 when economic growth for the corres- figures. These are the lowest figures in the ponding period is predicted to fall by three- unemployment area for a long time. quarters of a per cent? Contrary to what you are saying, Senator Senator KEMP—I think we should put a Mackay, this government has a very proud few figures on the record here, Senator record in this area, and a record which we are Mackay, which might give a slightly different continuing to work hard on. If I can refresh spin to the effort you just made. The context your memory, unemployment under Labor of your question comes after recent figures on rose to—was it 11.2 per cent? Does anyone employment growth in the Australian econ- here know who the minister for employment omy of over 50,000. That is a really remark- was under Labor when the unemployment able figure and one that, again, was widely level rose to 11.2 per cent? Absolutely dead Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2665 silence. I can tell you, Madam President, the given the flawed predictions of the last two minister for employment was Mr Kim budgets? Beazley. Mr Beazley presided over an unem- Senator KEMP—I think what we should ployment figure of 11.2 per cent. What an do is order a review of the questions commit- absolutely splendid record! tee in the Labor Party for putting up such an We now have a Labor Party senator stand- absurd question. I repeat: growth next year is ing up here and purporting to criticise this forecast at three per cent. Don’t you under- government’s record. Senator Mackay, don’t stand, Senator Mackay, that under this you realise that the unemployment rate has government the unemployment rate has fallen come down under this government? Don’t and continues to fall? you realise that the unemployment rate is Above all, Senator Mackay does not seem predicted to further decline? to understand that, under her party, the Labor The PRESIDENT—Senator, address the Party, unemployment rose to 11.2 per cent chair, please. and that the employment minister at the time was Mr Kim Beazley. As a result of our Senator KEMP—I was just asking some policies, the unemployment rate is falling and rhetorical questions, because there was an is predicted to continue to fall. Senator implication in the question from Senator Mackay, I think that just shows how much Mackay that this government was somehow this government is fully on track. (Time ex- failing on this front. The truth of the matter pired) is that this government is making great progress on this front. This is what the budget Budget 1998-99 figures say. Just to repeat an earlier comment: Senator LIGHTFOOT—My question is the economy is not going to suffer a fall in also addressed to the Assistant Treasurer. I growth this year; the economy is growing at refer to last night’s budget which has been three per cent. overwhelmingly endorsed by the Australian Senator MACKAY—Madam President, I community. Will the Assistant Treasurer ask a supplementary question. The Treasurer outline the achievements and benefits from last night predicted a fall in growth of three tackling Labor’s massive $10.3 billion debt quarters of a per cent. That is what I said. legacy? Just so you understand that. My supplemen- Senator KEMP—I thank Senator Lightfoot tary question is: has the minister ordered, for his question. It is a particularly appropri- given that the forecasts have been so appal- ate question in view of the sorts of comments lingly— that we have been receiving from the Labor Party during question time and following the Senator Ian Campbell—Madam President, very successful launch of the latest budget. I raise a point of order: the honourable sena- Overwhelmingly, there is good fiscal news tor opposite is not addressing her remarks contained in last night’s budget. As the through the chair. I would hope that she Treasurer said: would be asked to do so. We are back in the black. We are back on track. The PRESIDENT—Senator Mackay, This budget shows an underlying budget phrase your question correctly, please, to surplus of $2.7 billion, which brings the comply with the standing orders. Commonwealth back into the black for the Senator MACKAY—My supplementary first time in almost a decade. I am very question is: given that the government’s pleased to report that the government has reviews with regard to unemployment have delivered on its promise to have a return to been so wrong in the last two budgets and surplus in the first parliamentary term, further given that the Treasurer last night actually projected surpluses over the period 2001-02 predicted a fall in growth of three quarters of and is on track to more than halve the debt a per cent, Minister, have you ordered a ratio, the Commonwealth general government review of the employment growth forecasts net debt, by the turn of the century. 2666 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

By moving the budget into surplus we are Senator Faulkner—Madam President, you now repaying the debt burden inherited from did not call him to order on this occasion, but the previous government. By the end of 1998- I am glad that you will continue to do so. 99 we will have repaid around $31 billion in That is good. net debt from the levels— Senator KEMP—Madam President, I Senator Robert Ray—Million or billion? might say as a general comment that you Senator KEMP—Why do you not listen, made your statement very clearly. You called Senator Ray. We will have repaid around $31 me to order, as you said. I think the judgment billion in net debt from the levels of almost will be that I returned to order. On the point $96 billion we inherited— of order: I point out that there is an awful lot of noise coming from the other side, led by Senator Robert Ray—You said million. the Labor Party leader, Senator Faulkner. Senator KEMP—Senator Ray, that debt of There are occasions when the interjections are $96 billion we inherited from the Labor Party. of such a level that one is inclined to respond That was the figure. to them. If you call this side to order, which The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp— you are perfectly entitled to do, can I urge Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I you to make sure that when those on the other raise a point of order. You have called one side do not behave in a parliamentary fashion opposition senator to order—perhaps fairly, I they are also called to order. do not know—for not addressing remarks The PRESIDENT—Yes. Senator Light- through the chair. I see no evidence at all that foot? any government— Senator LIGHTFOOT—Madam President, The PRESIDENT—I have called Senator I ask a supplementary question. I ask the Kemp to order several times today for the Assistant Treasurer— same reason. Senator Kemp—I haven’t finished my Senator Faulkner—Perhaps you have. If answer. you have, I suggest you do it again on this The PRESIDENT—I call Senator Kemp. occasion. On three occasions he was address- ing Senator Ray and not you. Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam President. I was under the impression that you The PRESIDENT—I have called Senator were calling Senator Lightfoot for a point of Kemp to order several times today. Perhaps order. The government’s budget repair and you are not concentrating, Senator. I call improved economy means many things for all Senator Kemp. Australians. It will mean—and let me list a Senator KEMP—On the point of order, few examples, Madam President—that the Madam President— Commonwealth is living within its means. A Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I strong economy is able to withstand the raise a point of order— financial instability in Asia. Australia has the Senator KEMP—I am talking now. Sit lowest inflation outcomes since the early down. 1960s. Australia has the lowest bank mort- gage interest rates since 1970. For the average The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, resume Australian home buyer this represents a your seat. Do you have something further to saving of some $320 per month. They are say, Senator Faulkner? $3,800 per year better off. I know my col- Senator Faulkner—I would ask you to rule league is very keen to ask a supplementary on my point order, Madam President, which question so I look forward to hearing it. (Time is that on three occasions Senator Kemp made expired) no attempt to address Senator Ray through Senator LIGHTFOOT—Madam President, you. I believe you should— I ask a supplementary question of the Assist- The PRESIDENT—I had called him to ant Treasurer. What has been the reaction to order just as you stood up. the first balanced budget in almost a decade? Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2667

Senator KEMP—I am pleased to say that context in which I heard the comment. It the government’s responsible budget has been seems to me that you should put that to the very widely welcomed. For example, Lynn shadow Treasurer. Ralph, the CEO of the Investment and Finan- Senator Cook is very keen to get comments cial Services Association, said: corrected today—that is, could you correct the The budget reflects a continuation of responsible comments you made last year and the year fiscal management. before? There was a very famous comment by John Murray, the Executive Director of Senator Cook. If my memory serves me in a Masters Builders Australia, said: correct fashion, and Senator Cook will un- The budget was to be welcomed for its economical- doubtedly rise if it does not, in November ly responsible approach and reasonably realistic 1995 Senator Cook indicated that the budget outcomes, particularly the $2.7 billion surplus. was in surplus and would continue in surplus. Richard Seddon, the CEO of the Australian Senator Cook, just a few months later we Chamber of Manufacturers, said: discovered there was a $10.3 billion deficit left to us by the Labor Party. The Treasurer has brought down a disciplined and fiscally responsible budget. Senator Cook, you have to come to this debate with clean hands. That is what you They are just a selection of the vast range of have to do. The truth of the matter is that if very positive comments about this budget. I you want to go around and see if you can get have to say that on this issue the Labor Party everyone to correct every comment they have is completely isolated. (Time expired) ever made I think it would be a very good Budget 1998-99 start if you now did the same. I can report to Senator COOK—My question is directed the Senate—and there are a few new senators to the Assistant Treasurer. Did not the Treas- here—that Senator Cook was a very senior urer mislead Australians last night when he minister in the Keating government. There proclaimed in several media interviews that were days when we weighed very heavily the 1998-99 projected growth rate of three per every word he uttered because he was a cent for the Australian economy will be the senior minister. highest in Asia. Is it not true that the OECD’s Senator Robert Ray interjecting— April economic outlook No. 63 forecast for Senator KEMP—Madam President, Sena- Asia shows China growing at 7.2 per cent this tor Robert Ray is calling out again. I do not year and 7.5 per cent next year, Taiwan up know whether you can do anything about it. 5.9 per cent this year and 6.25 per cent next I do not wish to respond because if I do year, Singapore at 3.5 per cent this year and respond I get ticked off. But that was a very 5.2 per cent next year and the Philippines at famous quote by Senator Cook, it has to be four per cent in 1999? Will the Treasurer now said, when he predicted that the budget was correct his statement or does he regard China, in surplus and would continue in surplus. In Taiwan, Singapore and the Philippines as non- fact, the budget was running full steam into Asian countries? a major deficit. That was the real problem this Senator KEMP—I am afraid the questions government had to cope with. That was the are going from bad to worse. The context of problem that we had to deal with when we the comment made by the Treasurer was that got into government. your colleague Mr Gary Evans was very We were left with this $10.3 billion black critical of the growth rate in this budget, hole—and I might say that I have been a little which surprised us because most Australians bit critical of the shadow Treasurer from time welcome it. I think he was asked whether he to time as people in this chamber will know— could name any country that was growing at which the shadow Treasurer conceded on a faster rate and my impression was that he Sunday. Seeing as the shadow Treasurer was went blank. I think the question was asked of prepared to concede and confess the truth of the shadow Treasurer and the shadow Treas- the performance of the Labor Party in relation urer utterly failed to respond. That was the to the budget deficit, I think it is now time for 2668 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 you, Senator Cook, to stand up—and we are Budget 1998-99 all waiting on this side of the chamber for Senator LEES—My question is directed to Senator Cook to stand up—and correct the the Assistant Treasurer. Is the minister aware Senate record when you said in November that last night’s budget papers revealed that 1995 that the budget was in surplus and the outcome for 1997-98 will be $3.2 billion would continue in surplus. better than was forecast last year, excluding Senator COOK—Madam President, I ask unfunded new spending? Doesn’t this mean a supplementary question. I might say, Sena- that the black hole that the government has tor Kemp, your recitation of the events of last traded on relentlessly was $3 billion smaller night are wrong. You should go and review than they said it would be? the tape. You will find the Treasurer did say Government senators interjecting— what I said. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on my The PRESIDENT—Senator Cook, you are right will cease interjecting during the ques- debating the matter. You should be asking a tion. question. Senator LEES—In turn, doesn’t this mean Senator COOK—Thank you, Madam that $3 billion of cuts in the last two budgets President. If that is your way of saying that did not need to be made and that the pain the Treasurer got it wrong, I will accept your inflicted on those waiting in our public hospi- apology. Minister, do you agree that in order tal systems, on older Australians, on young to bring down unemployment the Australian people, on the unemployed and on those on economy needs to grow, as several econo- low incomes was mostly unnecessary? Final- mists contend, at between four and 4½ per ly, following the concessions from both cent? Why then has the government con- Treasury and the Reserve Bank that the cuts structed a budget which delivers only three in 1996 had a worse reverse effect on the per cent growth for this financial year? economy and unemployment than government Senator KEMP—We were all waiting forecast, isn’t it the case that more Australians breathless on this side to see whether Senator would be in work now if those $3 billion of Cook was going to give himself some of the socially and economically destructive cuts had medicine which he was requesting from never been made? others. He ducked that issue. No apology Senator KEMP—Senator, I do not know from Senator Cook. The Treasurer has done quite where to start with your question. As I an absolutely outstanding job. That is widely was making notes I said, ‘Gosh, this is wrong recognised by the community. Again, you got and that is wrong.’ Let me just go through it, the figuring wrong, Senator Cook. The unem- Senator. First of all, I think you reflected on ployment rate is continuing to fall. This is whether there was a budget black hole. Is that what we forecast in the budget. right? Senator Cook—You have to grow at four The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, direct per cent. your remarks correctly. Senator KEMP—Senator Cook said that Senator KEMP—Isn’t it astonishing that you have to grow at four per cent to get the four days ago the shadow Treasurer, Mr Gary unemployment rate to fall. The budget papers Evans, got on the TV and admitted that there show that the unemployment rate will con- was a black hole. Here we have the Labor tinue to fall to 7¾ per cent. That is what the Party who has resisted this for a very long budget papers show. The question was based period of time— on a faulty assumption. We are waiting on Senator Lees—Madam President, I raise a this side of the chamber for Senator Cook to point of order. I asked the minister a question do the right thing—stand up and correct the based on the budget figures, not on any extremely misleading statement that he made comments by a Labor Party shadow minister. in November 1995 as a former senior minister It is a point related to relevance. Could he in the Keating government. (Time expired) please answer the question asked? Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2669

The PRESIDENT—It was quite a wide that the average family receives. You only ranging question. I will direct the minister to have to see the employment growth that we the question, but he is entitled to answer it as are now enjoying. We are getting people back he wishes. into real jobs. Again, that is another area. As Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam a result of this, we have been able to deliver President, for that ruling. It is true that it was substantial benefits in this budget in the a very broad ranging question. What I was health area and to retired people. trying to build the case for, Senator Lees, was Senator, I listened carefully to your ques- that I thought there was now virtually univer- tions because I respect your questions. Your sal consensus certainly between the Labor question was based on a totally false assump- Party and the coalition that there was a major tion that there was no budget deficit to deal deficit left to us. The budget papers show with. This is fantasy land stuff. It is not there was a major deficit left to us. I would accurate. The reason the government is have thought that there was no argument enjoying support, Senator Lees, is that we about that. have been able to take strong action in this But to construct a question on what I would area. have to say is a totally false assumption that Senator LEES—Madam President, I ask a somehow Australia was not faced with an supplementary question. With respect, as the economic problem and that somehow Austral- minister did not answer my question, I will ia did not have to deal with a very serious try again. Minister, there is no doubt there crisis when we came to government, Senator, was a deficit. I am simply asking you: is it if that is the position of the Democrats, I do not the case that it was $3 billion smaller than not think that anyone really agrees with you. you forecast and than you prepared your I really do not think that. As I said, I quoted responses for? the Labor Party because the Labor Party are Senator Abetz—Madam President, I raise the group that have most resisted the idea that a point of order. The Leader of the Democrats there was a deficit. Now the Labor Party have is asking a question direct to the minister conceded that there was a deficit. Of course rather than through you. they had to. There was no argument. The budget papers showed that. Why would you The PRESIDENT—I have no intention of argue? Of course they tried to do that for a pulling everyone up every time, but I shall couple of years. persist in trying to get standing order 186 Senator, there was a major problem to deal adhered to in the chamber. I hope that people with. The question is: how do you deal with will gradually learn to do so. this in a responsible manner and a manner Senator LEES—Thank you, Madam which will leave the economy in a better President. I will try again through you. Is it position to enjoy sustainable growth? The fact not the case, as the minister’s answer implied, of the matter is that you have to take some that of course we had a deficit but that it was pretty tough decisions. I think that is what the $3 billion less than forecast—in other words, Australian community respects about this we have had $3 billion worth of cuts and government as an economic manager. We are harsh measures that were unnecessary and that a government which takes some pretty tough those people in Australia who are least able decisions. We had to do that, Senator. What to withstand those cuts have effectively we have been able to do as a result of this is suffered for nothing? to see very strong benefits flowing towards Senator KEMP—Again, I have to say that the wider Australian community. it is an astonishingly misconceived question. You only have to look at the figures I Senator, as a result of all the things that we quoted in reference to an excellent question have done, we have been able to deliver a I received from Senator Ross Lightfoot in substantial budget surplus at last. It is a relation to the effect of the cuts in interest budget surplus which people believe is re- rates on home mortgage rates and the savings sponsible and is an appropriate setting for the 2670 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 state of the economy as we find it now. If year is in the order of 0.6 per cent, and that you want to take off $3 billion here and $3 is in contrast to a more typical growth in billion there, you affect the whole budget outlays figure which occurred under the Labor outcome. Can I also say in relation to this that government of four to five per cent. That is a lot of tough decisions were made including, why I started off my answer by saying it was I might say, the imposition of a superannua- astonishing that Senator Bishop got up in this tion surcharge— chamber and attempted to lecture this govern- Senator Robert Ray—Tax, tax! ment on fiscal responsibility and blow-outs. Senator KEMP—Surcharge, which the Senator Faulkner—Are you going to give Labor Party opposed. (Time expired) the guarantee? Budget 1998-99 Senator KEMP—I am afraid Senator Faulkner has got into his bad habits again, Senator BISHOP—My question is directed Madam President. I do not know whether you to the Assistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp. Is appreciate it, but we are continuing to get a the minister aware that between budget night whole range of comments from Senator 1997 and last night the Howard government Faulkner while the question is being an- added around $8.4 billion to budget outlays swered. I do not know whether you would over a four-year period? Will the minister take some action on this, but it would be guarantee that the government will not have appreciated, Madam President. I was trying to a comparable spending blow-out this year put Senator Bishop’s comments into context. which would severely erode its surplus? Senator Faulkner—Are you going to give Senator KEMP—Again, I am absolutely the guarantee? astonished by the questions—a Labor Party senator standing up and attempting to lecture Opposition senators interjecting— this government on fiscal responsibility. I would have to say that now I have seen Senator KEMP—Senator Bishop spoke everything. Senator, let me just take you about a blow-out. I am saying that, if he looks through a couple of key figures. There is no at the budget figures carefully, he will see argument now in the community generally. I there is a very low growth in outlays—it is know the Labor Party do not like it, and we heading towards zero. Some blow-out! It is have seen the nitpicking which has gone on incredible. Contrast this with the sorts of today. The Democrats are a bit upset about expenditures that occurred under the Labor something which I cannot quite work out. The government which, as I said, were more likely truth of the matter is that everybody believes in the order of four to five per cent real that this is a very responsible budget and a growth each year. In the last five budgets budget in tune with the times. Labor chalked up deficits in the order of $70 billion. Senator Jacinta Collins—That’s not true! Senator, you do not have to lecture this Senator KEMP—You don’t, Senator government on fiscal responsibility. You have Collins, but everybody else does. In this to speak to your own people and make sure budget, as in previous budgets, this govern- that their promises—the election promises— ment has been very responsible in containing are not made one week and reversed the next. outlays, which we had to do because we Remember, we got down to only two core promised we would not raise taxes. Therefore, promises. All the other comments we have to keep this promise, and in order to deal with received from the Labor Party have been the massive budget deficit which most people about increasing expenditure here and there. think was there—Senator Lees does not, but most people do—we had to deal with the Senator Faulkner—Don’t you talk about growth in outlays. core promises. Just to put Senator Bishop’s comments into The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner, your a bit of perspective, the growth in outlays this voice is far too loud. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2671

Senator KEMP—We have heard comments QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE from the Labor Party about increasing ex- penditure in this area and in that area. The Jabiluka Uranium Mine truth of the matter is that, when it came to the Senator MARGETTS—My question is crunch, the shadow Treasurer had to go on directed to the Minister for Resources and TV and say, ‘None of these promises are Energy. On 12 August 1997, Dr Peter Bridge- operative.’ (Time expired) water, the government’s Supervising Scientist, Senator BISHOP—Madam President, I ask wrote to the Alligator Rivers Advisory Com- a supplementary question. When the minister mittee in relation to the Jabiluka Uranium was asked the extent of additional budget Mine and said, in part: outlays late in the last session of the Senate, If ERA were to proceed with the Jabiluka mill he had no idea. How then can the Australian alternative, I would recommend, in the strongest people place any credence at all in the fiscal possible terms to the Minister for the Environment, that ERA be required to prepare a new Environ- position when the government has consider- mental Impact Statement as required by the Envi- able form in panicking about the policy ronment Protection (Impact of Proposals) Act 1974. bushfires it has created in so many areas? Statements by ERA have indicated that it believes that a new EIS would be required in order to Senator KEMP—I just think this is aston- proceed with the Jabiluka mill alternative. ishing. All these figures are detailed, Senator. If you want to look at the growth in spending Given this statement by the government’s in particular areas and new measures, they are senior uranium mining scientist, the person all there in the budget papers, in the midyear responsible for the protection of Kakadu review. I do not know what you are going on National Park from uranium mining, why has about. the government dismissed this advice and instead allowed ERA to proceed with a much Senator Mackay—You don’t know what less stringent public environmental review of time of day it is. the on-site mill alternative for the proposed Senator KEMP—I must say that there was Jabiluka Uranium Mine? a stage when the interjections from the other Senator PARER—In response to Senator side were quite funny, but they are getting Margetts, the Jabiluka mill alternative was worse and worse. proposed in the EIS as a feasible mine devel- Senator Alston—I don’t remember that. opment strategy should a situation develop Senator KEMP—It was when Bob Collins where milling at Ranger was no longer an was here. Occasionally you would get quite option, in accordance with Minister Hill’s a good comment. This government is acting recommendations. Senator Margetts will be in a responsible fashion. We have seen a lack aware that, of all the options available, both of responsibility on behalf of the Labor Party. from an environmental and economic point of They were going around making promise after view, certainly the milling at Ranger would promise to increase spending. Of course, be the most desirable. when those figures started to mount up, all In accordance with Minister Hill’s recom- those promises had to be immediately mendations, I required ERA to provide further dumped, with egg all over the collective face information to the Commonwealth if ERA of the Australian Labor Party. (Time expired) wished to develop this Jabiluka mill alterna- tive. On 22 April 1998, Energy Resources of DISTINGUISHED VISITORS Australia was designated as the proponent The PRESIDENT—I draw the attention of under the Environment Protection (Impact of honourable senators to the presence in the Proposals) Act 1974 in relation to the Jabi- President’s Gallery of former New South luka mill option of the Jabiluka development Wales Senator, Michael Baume. I wish you a proposal. happy and pleasant return to this country and Senator Hill has now determined that a to the Senate. public environment report—a PER—will be Honourable senators—Hear, hear! required for the Jabiluka mill. The PER will 2672 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 enable further public and government scrutiny ing and continuing discussions with Abo- of the additional information provided by riginal interests. Is the minister aware that the ERA which relates to specific impacts of traditional owners of that area are asking in milling Jabiluka ore on-site. It is consistent all possible terms that an EIS take place with Senator Hill’s recommendation that before a proposal were considered for milling further environmental assessment should be at Jabiluka? required if the preferred option of milling at Senator PARER—I thought when I an- Ranger did not proceed. swered that question in a lot of detail that in It must be remembered that the EIS ad- fact I did give Senator Margetts the response dressed the mining operations and the pro- she wanted—that where the environmental posed haul road as well as the Ranger milling work has been going out, subject to Northern option, and these aspects of the proposal have Territory agreements and so on, there is already been given environmental clearance nothing to prevent them from going ahead in by Senator Hill. ERA have not notified the accordance with those approvals already Commonwealth of which milling option will received. What we are looking at now is an be progressed. It is likely that they will make alternative process for the milling of uranium this decision in light of ongoing and continu- at Jabiluka, rather than the Ranger option. ing discussions with Aboriginal interests That will require a public environment report associated with the Jabiluka project. I con- and, until that happens, they cannot go with sider there would be no impediment to ERA the Jabiluka milling option. progressing development of mining operations Budget 1998-99 common to both options subject to require- ments I placed on the company, the issue of Senator CONROY—My question is to the the appropriate Northern Territory authorisa- Assistant Treasurer. I refer to the statement in tions and their commercial judgment. We all the budget where it says: recognise the importance of the biophysical, The increase in the capital stock is contributing to cultural and social significance of the location an improved productivity performance. . . of the mine, and I have advised ERA that I How can this be so when the difference expect the company to demonstrate that between GDP growth and employment growth stringent environment, heritage and safeguard is narrowing, implying a fall off in produc- requirements have been met before I consider tivity performance? According to your budget, issuing an export permit. what is productivity performance doing? Is it I will just respond briefly to the comment increasing or decreasing? about Dr Bridgewater. I think the comment Senator KEMP—I would have thought one made by Senator Margetts is probably correct, of the things this government has put great but I might also say that, when Senator Hill emphasis on is improving the productivity decided there would be a public environment performance of the Australian economy. That report, this in itself was supported by Dr is why we have taken action across a very Bridgewater. wide range of areas. Senator MARGETTS—Madam President, Senator Conroy—Up or down? I ask a supplementary question. Given that Senator KEMP—Senator Conroy, we seek ERA has said that it plans to begin construc- for productivity to increase, and productivity tion at any time, has it now become govern- is increasing. Productivity is responding, we ment policy to allow highly sensitive mining believe, to a variety of things. Let me just projects to proceed before legally required highlight for your information some of the environmental review processes are com- moves that this government has made to pleted? Will the Minister for Resources and improve the productivity performance of this Energy be tabling the full advice from the economy. There have been labour market Minister for the Environment and the reasons reforms and we have encouraged wage in- why such decisions will be made? Senator creases to be more closely related to produc- Parer has indicated that there has been ongo- tivity. That is just one of the areas we believe Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2673 is very important. Peter Reith must take great to prevent substantial productivity improve- credit for work in this area—for example, ments on the waterfront. So, Senator Conroy, with the Workplace Relations Bill, which he don’t you get up and lecture this party on was able to get through the Senate with the productivity, with your waterfront policies of assistance of the Democrats and in particular protecting the monopoly of the waterside Senator Kernot. workers and with your labour market policies Senator Conroy—Up or down? of protecting the powers of the unions. The PRESIDENT—Order, Senator Senator Faulkner—That is out of order. Conroy! Seven times since you asked your The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, you question you have interjected. I regard that as should address your remarks through the being— chair. Senator Conroy—He has not come close Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam to explaining once. President. I am aware of that but, as you can understand, occasionally one is provoked. The PRESIDENT—Order! I regard that as being persistently in breach of the standing Senator Faulkner interjecting— orders. I call Senator Kemp. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam Faulkner! President, and I think you are quite accurate. Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam You attempt to give Senator Conroy a serious President. I am glad you drew attention to answer to his question— Senator Faulkner and the constant sledging Senator Neal—Answer the question. which occurs from Senator Faulkner while one is attempting to answer a question. I say Senator KEMP—He asked me, ‘Is produc- to Senator Conroy that productivity is critical tivity increasing?’ and I am saying, ‘Yes, to the economy. Improvements in productivity productivity is increasing.’ That is what the lead to real improvements in living standards. question was. Don’t you people ever listen to This government has been concerned to the question? Then I thought I would help improve productivity performance in this Senator Conroy a bit by explaining some of economy, and we are achieving it.(Time the things we have done to improve produc- expired) tivity. I indicated the Workplace Relations Bill and the encouragement we are making for Senator CONROY—Madam President, I more flexible labour markets, which improve ask a supplementary question. Minister, the productivity. question was about the difference between your claim and what your budget figures Equally, one of the things all senators will show, which is that GDP growth and employ- be very much aware of is the importance of ment growth are narrowing, which implies a reform on the waterfront to improve produc- fall in productivity. If, as is claimed, capital tivity. I am intrigued that Labor Party senators stock will contribute to improved productivity stand up and pretend to be worried about performance this year, what contribution, if productivity. Let me tell you that this govern- any, did it make last year? ment believes in productivity. It has put in place a number of very important measures to Senator KEMP—You would have to be increase productivity in this economy, and very careful in accepting any figures from productivity is rising. Senator Conroy. The one thing Senator Conroy has distinguished himself in, accord- Senator Conroy, don’t you get up and talk ing to the Sunday program, is fixing the about productivity with your party’s position numbers in Labor Party branches. Senator on the waterfront. What the Labor Party are Conroy, you are not too hot on budget papers. attempting to do on the waterfront is to prevent productivity rising. The Labor Party The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp! have identified with the Maritime Union. Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam They are supporting them and are determined President. Again, I regret that I was distract- 2674 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 ed. There are a variety of ways to measure za vaccines for all Australians aged over 65 productivity—output, per head and in a years, a package worth more than $20 million variety of other ways. If the Labor Party a year; improved access to Medicare refunds wants to be credible on issues of productivity, through another 200 pharmacies, at a cost of it had better get behind this government and $10.2 million; and $165 million for the support the major productivity increases that National Health and Medical Research Coun- we are seeking on the Australian waterfront. cil. Budget 1998-99 I digress for a moment to note that, under the Labor Party’s forward projections in their Senator PAYNE—My question is directed last budget, the National Health and Medical to the Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Research Council would have had no funds Strait Islander Affairs, representing the for new research. I invite the Labor Party to Minister for Health and Family Services. Last look at their forward projections. There were night’s budget included significant boosts to no funding increases. We are giving a record health care in a number of areas. Will the level of funding for the NHMRC. minister outline the specific initiatives for public hospitals, preventative health, indigen- Other measures include $95.5 million over ous health and any other measures which five years for demand reduction and harm assist Australians and their families? minimisation initiatives as part of the government’s national illicit drug strategy; Senator HERRON—It gives me great assisting 100 overseas trained doctors to gain pleasure to respond to Senator Payne’s ques- skills in Australia in return for working in tion and inform the Senate about the positive rural and remote areas for five years— initiatives this government is undertaking in building a stronger health system. Madam Senator Crowley—Oh! President, as you know, last night a budget Senator HERRON—‘Oh!’, Senator was delivered which some commentators have Crowley said. That is a new initiative. The said has put this country in a better position Labor government had 13 years to do some- than it has been in for at least 25 years in thing about it, and they did nothing. relation to the economy. As part of that budget last night, we have introduced extra Senator Forshaw—Rubbish! funding in relation to health care. The PRESIDENT—Senator Forshaw! The Howard government will make avail- Senator HERRON—There will be another able an extra $2.9 billion for public hospitals $6.1 million over three years for the imple- over the next five years. That is a 15 per cent mentation of tobacco harm minimisation increase in real terms in Commonwealth initiatives. More specifically, this government spending, to a total of $30.2 billion. The has made a major commitment to addressing budget measures represent a genuine balance the unacceptable level of disadvantage suf- between maintaining the government’s com- fered by Australia’s indigenous people. In the mitment to achieving reform across health and health area, the government will spend an family services and directing additional extra $72 million over the next four years, resources to key areas to continue to improve including $30.5 million as part of the public health and social outcomes. and preventative health package. This is to The major focus in this portfolio has been address the urgent health needs of Aboriginal on improving access to health services for and Torres Strait Islander people. rural and regional Australia, including the Under the Labor Party, the health problems establishment of a rural multi-purpose health of Aboriginal people got worse; they went and family services network, worth $24.3 backwards. We are injecting a major, massive million over four years; more support for increase of $72 million over the next four older Australians to stay in their homes years. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander through the $269 million ‘staying at home’ people have urgent health needs and we are initiative; from next year, free annual influen- addressing them. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2675

In a two-pronged attack, more than $22.6 health and it is the right approach. (Time million over four years will be spent on expired) addressing the unacceptably high level of Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask that infectious disease in Australia’s indigenous further questions be placed on the Notice population. The funding also includes a Paper. national immunisation program specifically targeting respiratory illnesses, including AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING influenza. An extra $7.9 million will be spent CORPORATION on capital works to maintain health clinics Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for and facilities in remote indigenous communi- Communications, the Information Economy ties. There are many other initiatives that I and the Arts) (3.07 p.m.)—During the last would like to expound on. I would welcome session, the Senate resolved that I table a a further question from Senator Payne so that report by independent auditors, chartered I can spell out further initiatives.(Time ex- accountants and management consultants, pired) Arthur Andersen, on the submission by the Senator PAYNE—I noted particularly the ABC on the cost of funding the national minister’s response on research initiatives and broadcaster’s digital transition entitled Evalu- indigenous health care. Are there any other ation of the ABC’s digitisation strategy. I did aspects of the budget initiatives that the not table the document at the time on the minister could outline to assist Australians basis that it was a confidential report obtained and their families? by the government for the purpose of con- Senator HERRON—I thank Senator sideration of issues related to the budget. As Payne. the budget has now been released, I consider it appropriate that the document be tabled. I Senator Faulkner interjecting— hereby table the relevant report. The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT Senator HERRON—Senator Faulkner may NOTICE be interested to know that, under the Labor government, Professor Feachem did a study Budget 1998-99 in relation to HIV and STD in the Northern Senator COOK (Western Australia— Territory in particular, and appealed for more Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the funds to be spent. What did the Labor Party Senate) (3.08 p.m.)—I move: do? That the Senate take note of the answers given Senator Abetz—Nothing, absolutely noth- by the Minister for the Environment (Senator Hill) ing. and the Assistant Treasurer (Senator Kemp), to questions without notice asked by Senators Chap- Senator HERRON—Nothing; they did man and Senator Lightfoot today, relating to the nothing about it. We are putting money into 1998-99 Budget. that. We are also putting $7.9 million into The surplus that has been trumpeted here capital works to maintain health clinics and today in the answers to those questions was facilities in remote indigenous communities. built on the back of cuts to health, nursing Labor had 13 years to address the many homes, education, child care, jobs and indus- problems that were allowed to fester under the try support. The sad thing about those cuts is management of many of the same old faces that, whilst this budget puts some pennies over there. We hear about all the things they back, it leaves the pounds away. This is a cut would have done if they had been given a few that has been borne by families, by workers more years. and by the Australian community, and there Labor not only completely failed indigenous is no real gain for them in this budget. The Australians; they failed all Australians. We pity is that it was not necessary. Those cuts were left, as you know, with a $10.3 billion did not need to occur. Left to the parameters deficit which we have managed to clean up in that we set as we went out of government, the two years. We are taking a new approach to budget would have grown, with the changes 2676 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 that we had announced, to being in surplus at to the projections, at a very rubbery eight per this time. That is important to keep in mind cent, not underpinned by the economic growth when we debate what has so far allegedly that the economy needs to sustain the figure. been achieved by the Treasurer. It is a most unbelievable forecast. As well, we Today we are not so much debating a know in this budget that the current account budget as we are talking about a May eco- deficit for the nation is reeling out of control nomic statement. We know that the real pain and has virtually doubled in the last two years and the real issues are down the track, lurking from $17 billion to now being a projected in wait for the Australian electorate as the current account deficit of $31 billion and that government announces its so-called tax reform foreign debt has leapt by $26 billion to now package, a tax reform package that will rank at the highest in the history of this almost certainly include a goods and services nation—$222 billion. That is $26 billion tax—a regressive tax—which will be applied above the level of when the now government, to all Australians irrespective of income. That when in opposition, rolled its so-called ‘debt will be another thimble and pea trick. It will truck’ around Australia to declaim the previ- offer tax cuts to middle Australia bought on ous government. Under this government, it the backs of all Australians. It will give back has risen by $26 billion. less than it takes from the pockets of ordinary It ought to be remembered that the cuts Australians. made in the earlier budgets took $36 billion We know too that the budget surplus that out of public health; it has only put $2 billion has been trumpeted here today is a surplus back. In the previous budget, $500 million that will remain intact for as long as it suits were taken out of nursing homes; nothing the government. They will use and plunder goes back. Cuts of $800 were made to child that surplus when it comes to giving give care; not a cent goes back. Cuts of $3 billion aways and pork barrelling to those wish-list were made to universities; nothing goes back. groups that it favours in the Australian elec- The jobs programs were cut by $1.8 billion, torate. That is the truth about this budget. while youth employment has risen unemploy- Brace yourselves for an election campaign. ment by 27.1 per cent: a give and take budg- Brace yourselves for a fist full of dollars et. Now wait for the big whammy—the goods election campaign. Brace yourselves for a and services tax. thimble and pea trick. In the election that the Prime Minister The government tells us a number of things announced to his party room yesterday, you about this budget but it also interestingly can be sure of one thing from Labor; you will omits to say a number of things that are not have a goods and services tax. You can important. To get a real picture of the out- be sure of one thing from the government; come, you need to know that this budget you will have a goods and services tax and, forecasts that export growth will decline. It while it will be coated by lucrative tax cuts, forecasts that investment levels in the Austral- look at what you really save. Australia will be ian economy will fall. It forecasts that con- the loser. (Time expired) sumer spending for the next year will be Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) down. It forecasts that investment in housing (3.13 p.m.)—What humbug we have heard will also drop considerably. It announces in from Senator Cook today. We hear it every its forward projections that business invest- time he gets up in the Senate on some matter ment will fall and it discloses in its report that he wishes to raise in response to questions research and development investment in that have been asked and answers given Australia has fallen through the floor. It does during question time, but today certainly takes those things on the back of a forecast that the cake. national savings, the much trumpeted element The most important priority of a federal of this budget, is in fact in decline as well. government is to maintain a nation’s finances Unemployment in this budget is just un- in a sound position. Governments cannot do believable. It is stuck in any case, according anything else unless the nation’s finances are Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2677 sound. All the other demands that are made pay off that other dreadful legacy of the on government for initiatives here and action Labor government—our massively accumulat- there are dependent on the country and in ed government debt. There was something of particular the government finances themselves the order of $97 billion accumulated under 13 being in a sound position. years of Labor—about $80 billion of which But that is a dictum that was completely was accumulated during their last five years ignored by the Labor Party when they were in office. in government because the philosophy of the Senator Lightfoot—A disgrace. A national Labor Party was to spend, to borrow and to disgrace. tax—nothing else; no responsibility at all as Senator CHAPMAN—An absolute dis- far as financial management was concerned. grace in terms of economic management—that Let us hear what Mr Gary Evans, the shadow is right, Senator Lightfoot. Now, because we Treasurer said yesterday when he was inter- are generating a surplus, we can start to pay viewed on 4QR, in answer to a question that that debt off. Already, we will have succeed- was put in this form: ed, by the end of 1998-99, in paying off some I can’t help but asking if you could have done all $31 billion of that debt. With further these marvellous things with the economy. privatisation of Telstra, over the next three or These are, of course, the things that the four years beyond that, we will have that debt Liberal-National government have done in the down to $23 billion dollars—a massive last two years—delivered a surplus and turnaround and a massive success on the part reduced unemployment to the lowest rate of a Liberal-National Party government. That since 1990 at 8 per cent. ‘Why didn’t you?’ not only restores international confidence in the interviewer says to Gary Evans. This is the Australian economy but also, most import- the shadow Treasurer’s response, and I quote: antly, it frees up money in the annual budget Well, we were—I mean, we ran into the problem so our budgetary position on an annual basis of the recession of 1989-90 and 1990-91 with high is even better. interest rates and all the rest— Under Labor, of course, more was being that we all remember with a shudder. What he paid out each year by the government in forgot to say, of course, was that it was a interest than they were spending on defence deliberately induced recession by the then or education because of the massive debt that Treasurer, Mr Keating, who described it as they had accumulated. We will get that down the ‘recession we had to have.’ It was deliber- to $23 billion and this will free up $5 billion ately induced by raising interest rates through or $6 billion a year out of the annual budget the roof and sending small business and home for either further tax reductions and benefits owners through the floor. Small business thereby to the Australian community or, if overdraft rates were 17 to 20 per cent during areas of need are identified, provide extra that period—that is the sort of financial expenditure in those areas of need. The Labor management we saw under the Labor Party, Party fails to recognise this basic fundamental which absolutely sent our economy through of economic management. As I said, their the floor. whole approach is to spend and worry about Over the last two years this government has it later. They will either borrow the money to acted responsibly to restore sound financial cover the spending or they will raise taxes to management and to lay the basis for economic cover the spending; but they do not analyse growth in this country. As a result of that, we things properly, they do not get to the nub of have in the budget delivered last night a $2.7 issues as far as sound financial management billion budget surplus projected for the 1998- is concerned. 1999 financial year. That is important, not Now we have got the lowest home mort- only because it provides a sound basis for the gage rates that Australia has experienced since private sector to develop and grow and 1970, falling from 10.5 per cent down to 6.5 provide jobs and all the other benefits for the per cent—worth $3,800 a year for the average community, but also because it allows us to home buyer. These are the benefits delivered 2678 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 by this government over the last—(Time Labor initiative. There is a reference to the expired) savings rebate—and that, if anything, has cut Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (3.19 private saving. There is a reference to tax p.m.)—In the context of the questions that reform and the prospect that it has the poten- Senator Kemp answered on the budget, there tial to enhance private saving—that, presum- has been a great deal of focus on the budget ably, is a reference to the foreshadowed surplus of $2.7 billion. There has also been a introduction of a goods and services tax. The great deal of focus in past years on how that argument is that, if you tax consumption has been achieved. We all know of the mas- through a goods and services tax—sorry, it is sive cuts to state funding, health, education, now called a BIBIT or a BOBIT; the govern- aged care, child care and many more areas. ment is not anxious to use the name GST— Suffice it to say, it was not necessary to cut Senator McGauran—Do you blame us? to that degree and to the extent to which you did. But the focus on the budget surplus and Senator SHERRY—BOBIT or BIBIT: it the contribution to the level of government will be interesting to see which one you use debt is only part of a very important story. in the election period. The argument is that if Senator Cook quite rightly raised the issue of you tax consumption through a GST saving what is an extremely worrying figure in will go up. There is absolutely no evidence respect of the current account deficit. that that will happen. I must say that the next paragraph did surprise me. It says: Senator Cook also raised the issue of total foreign debt, which is also of great concern, Finally, quite apart from these policy influences, demographic change over the next decade or so is given that it has increased by some $26 likely to see a rise in the proportion of the popula- billion. I looked through budget paper No. 1 tion age groups which historically have been high in an attempt to find some reference to total savers and a decline in younger, low-saving age foreign debt, particularly given that this cohorts. government asked question after question on That is in Budget Paper No. 1 at 3.11. We all the subject during their period in opposition— know that this country faces an ageing popu- in fact, they had a debt truck roaming the lation, and I would have thought it was country. And surprise, surprise! There is no common knowledge that an ageing population reference whatsoever to total foreign debt in with a increasing proportion who are retired budget paper No. 1. But, of course, there is are net dis-savers. So how on earth that can extensive reference to the current account be referred to as a factor that will lead to a deficit and the need for saving—not just very important increase in private saving is government saving, but an increase in total beyond me. national savings. If we look at the table on page 1.12 we see Lastly, in Budget Paper No. 1 at 2.7, there the government’s projections are for a de- is continual reference to Japan: crease in private saving and a decrease in The outlook for Japan is a matter of concern. Not gross national saving. In the context of our only is Japan heavily exposed to regional develop- current account deficit, which is increasing ments, its domestic economy is experiencing substantial weaknesses and shows no sign of an rapidly, this is an extremely worrying eco- early turnaround. nomic trend. It is one that Mr Costello and Senator Kemp quite conveniently attempt to Well, thank goodness, because we know why evade as much as possible. Japan has significant economic problems: it introduced a GST at a rate of three per cent If we look at the budget papers on 3.11, in some five years ago and it increased that respect of private saving—which the govern- goods and services tax to a rate of five per ment argues should increase—there is a cent last April. It has absolutely flattened the reference to a prospect and a suggestion of economy. factors that improve the outlook for private saving. There is a reference to the superan- There is extensive reference to the strength nuation guarantee—that was an important of the US. What is one outstanding feature of Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2679 the economy of the United States? It does not This is a budget that is absolutely right for the have a goods and services tax. times. More importantly, the Howard government has honoured its promise to the Australian people Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) by delivering a budget surplus. (3.24 p.m.)—I am delighted that Senator Cook is still here, because we are eternal That is something that Senator Cook could optimists on this side of the chamber and we never claim. He could never claim to have are quite sure that at some stage in the future honoured his promise, because he promised Senator Cook will try to redeem his economic that the budget was in surplus when in fact it credentials by eventually apologising for was in deficit. Mr Wallis also said that this misleading this chamber just prior to the 1996 budget makes sure that we can keep a check election by saying that the government’s on interest rates and inflation. Anybody who budget was in surplus. Senator Cook, we do remembers the Hawke-Keating period of actually live in hope that the longer you stay government will know how devastating high in the chamber— interest rates were to businesses in Australia. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Would you The National Farmers Federation them- like to address the chair, please? selves have commented this morning that ‘the drop of 2.5 per cent in interest rates since Senator FERGUSON—Yes, Madam March 1996 that has applied to most farmers Deputy President, I most certainly would. On has been worth $450 million in reduced this side of the chamber we are optimistic interest payments for farmers.’ On top of that, enough to think that the longer Senator Cook the provisional tax uplift factor has been stays in this chamber, the more chance there further reduced. When the previous govern- is that he might admit that he made a terrible ment was in place, the provisional tax uplift mistake and that he did mislead this chamber factor was 10 per cent, and now we have by saying that the previous government had guaranteed that this will be reduced a further a budget that was in surplus prior to the 1996 percentage point—and this will provide major election when we know that in fact they left savings to farmers as well. us with an enormous deficit. Let us go to the comments of some other Senator Cook talks about the surplus we are people. People have talked about the effect on creating being built on the spending cuts to a tourism. The chairman of the Tourism Task range of people. In fact, the surplus this Force, Mr John Brown, said that the money government has brought forward is even more that has been allocated could not have come marvellous because it has been built on the at a better time; that the minister, Andrew back of your enormous deficit. If Senator Thomson, deserves the applause of the indus- Cook and Senator Sherry want to claim some try and its one million workers for this budget economic credentials in this chamber, people result. only have to look at their efforts over the previous time they were in government to see Senator Calvert—Is that the former Labor that they have none at all. Nobody believes Party minister? what the members of the opposition say with Senator FERGUSON—I am not sure if it respect to this budget. is the former Labor Party minister, but the If you really want to get some accurate name, John Brown, is very familiar. The comment about the budget that was put down housing industry says that the government’s by the Treasurer (Mr Costello) last night, you commitment to a substantial budget surplus is really need to have a look at some third party ‘the right defence for Australia against the endorsements from people outside of this Asian economic fallout.’ Then you can go to place who actually make comments about the those people who really count, older Austral- budget with some authority. We only need to ians, the National President of the Association go as far as the Business Council of Australia of Independent Retirees, Maureen Kingston, and its president, Stan Wallis, who is well says that she is ‘delighted that the government regarded by people on the other side of this has listened to the voice of independent chamber. He says: retirees who have endeavoured to provide 2680 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 their own income in retirement and made sure At the same time, we have this government that they are not a burden on this government claiming the benefits of low inflation rates when it comes to providing an income in and the benefits for people in home owner- retirement for their own good.’ (Time expired) ship. What we did not hear today is that there Senator JACINTA COLLINS (Victoria) is a decline in the home ownership growth; it (3.29 p.m.)—I also wish to take note of the is contracting. Why is it contracting? Because answers to questions on the budget. Those on to own a home and to pay off a mortgage you Senator Ferguson’s side certainly are eternal need a job, and this government is not con- optimists. Today’s performance seemed to be cerned about employment. Employment is a an example that if you assert the same propo- non-core promise; it is not important. sition strongly and often enough, some people At this stage we need to be concentrating eventually will believe you. But people are on growth. We need a higher level of growth concerned with both the social costs and the if we are going to do anything about unem- methods of achieving this surplus. None of ployment. We cannot get ourselves into a that was addressed today by the government. position where we solve our balance of If we look at the costs of this surplus over payments problems unless we start looking at the term of this government, we come up with issues such as skills, infrastructure, innovation figures, contrary to Senator Payne’s question and net exports. We need to be doing more about the boost in health, showing a decline than just the 1½ pages of comments on the of $1.62 billion spending in health. We have millennium bug. Sure, it is an important a decline of around $400 million spending in problem, but we need to be doing far more in aged and community care at the same time as relation to Australian industry than that and the nursing home debacle; we have a decline additional assistance to tourism. We will not of $1.5 billion in employment programs; we generate employment for our future work have a decline of around $3 billion in educa- force. tion; and we have a decline of around $800 Let us look at what the budget did do for million in child care. People in the communi- Australian industry. There is nothing in the ty are concerned about these things. People budget to relieve the pain that Australian want their services back from this govern- industry is going through at the moment. ment. Instead, the government has delivered the It is incredible that in this budget, as was following: a $300,000 cut to the anti-dumping canvassed during question time with some of system at a time when manufacturers are the questions, at a time when we have a GDP facing unprecedented international pressure growth forecast declining from 3¾ per cent with the Asian economic crisis; and a major down to three per cent, the government underspend of R&D START program. In the predicts that employment growth will increase 1998-99 period, there will be a further 2.36 from its forecast of 1¼ per cent to 1¾ per shortfall according to the budget papers. cent. This is simply incredible, even with the Where is innovation? low participation rate, where the government Not one cent has been set aside, despite the has been driving 100,000 people out of the Prime Minister’s promises, for the textiles, job market to achieve the still unacceptable clothing and footwear industry assistance level of unemployment remaining—and package. It must not have been a core prom- predicted to remain—at around eight per cent. ise. There is a continuing decline in support I am reminded of this government for manufacturers from $542 million in the member’s position at the time of Working 1997-98 period to $405 million in 2001-2002. Nation. We were criticised about the nature of There is the abolition of the shipbuilding some of our employment programs during bounty in 1998-99. There is a collapse in Working Nation. At least these people were support for information technology. This area, still in the job market. This government is where the government has claimed major driving people out of the job market to reduce initiatives, is going from $84 million to only their unemployment levels—it is incredible. $6 million over four years. (Time expired) Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2681

Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (3.34 we do not deny that it is an ongoing problem p.m.)—I would also like to join this debate in that does require management—then what is regard to the budget. Like Senator Ferguson, the first thing you do? What is the first advice I am also bewildered that the day after the you would get? It would be to bring your budget is delivered back on track in the black budget into surplus, and that is exactly what with a reduction of the $10.5 billion deficit, we did and that is exactly what you did not the opposition happen to bring out as its lead do. That is the answer to the current account attack in the first question, Senator Cook. deficit and it is very similar in relation to the Senator Cook, as we all know—Senator foreign debt. Ferguson made the point—has no credibility to discuss budget surpluses or budget matters The foreign debt has levelled out. It has not at all, when he was party to the cover-up of jumped from $30 billion in 1983 when you the previous government’s $10.5 billion first entered government to around the $200 deficit. billion mark—that was the jump in your 13 years. It has increased slightly; it has in fact Even his shadow minister, Mr Gareth levelled out. How do you tackle foreign debt Evans, has come clean on the matter. He has of this level? You introduce a surplus budget; told us, ‘Yes, there was a $10.5 billion defi- you get your own government expenditure cit.’ So why doesn’t Senator Cook, before he and revenue into order. And that is what we makes comments on this government’s budg- have done. et, come in here and apologise for his cover- up? Then we may turn our attention to some In fact, the foreign debt has also decreased of his questions. He came in and quoted the as a percentage of GDP. They are very good Treasurer’s past comments in 1995. He figures. They have been achieved with no tax quoted them quite correctly because they were increases and on time, as has been said, even good comments in relation to the current with the Asian economic firestorm which is account. engulfing the whole world. As a result, we The current account deficit of this govern- have the lowest interest rate since pre- ment is far apart and different from the Whitlam days. We have the lowest inflation previous government’s. The difference is that rate since pre-Whitlam days. We have the your current account deficit was a higher first true, underlying surplus since pre- percentage of GDP—6½ per cent and rising Whitlam days. And we have the lowest and dangerously rising—while our current unemployment rate since the recession. That account deficit is in fact falling. is still an ongoing problem that requires Senator Sherry—It’s getting worse. management, but it has been wound back since the worst days of your government. We Senator McGAURAN—It is around the will not stop there—that was the first leg of five per cent mark, Senator Sherry. That is the our journey. The second leg of our journey is difference. But more than that; the current to reduce debt. account deficit has taken— Senator Sherry—What about foreign debt? I want to pick up two points with regard to Senator Cook’s hackneyed comment that this Senator McGAURAN—I will get on to surplus has been achieved on the back of cuts foreign debt. The current account deficit has in health and social security. They were fair been affected of course by the Asian econom- and necessary cuts, and the market and the ic crisis. So it is not an import-driven current community judged them as such. Also, Sena- account deficit as it was in your time, affect- tor Cook should speak to former Senator ing interest rates and affecting the inflation Kernot about this, because she says that the rate. Rather, we have—and how could we reforms introduced by this government, avoid it—a current account deficit affected by particularly in the social security area, will our exports. That is the second difference. not be changed if the Labor Party gets into The third one is, as the Treasurer has said, government. That is an endorsement of our if you had a current account deficit problem— changes and it utterly contradicts what Sena- 2682 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 tor Cook and Senator Jacinta Collins are Government take effective action without further trying to sell here today. delay. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! The by Senator Margetts (from 116 citizens). time for the debate has expired. Australian Broadcasting Corporation Question resolved in the affirmative. To the Honourable the President and Senators of the Senate assembled in Parliament. PETITIONS The petition of the undersigned citizens respect- The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for fully shows that we, as residents of the State of presentation as follows: Victoria, urge the government to: Logging and Woodchipping reject moves to cut the funding of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and instead maintain To the Honourable the President and Members of funding in real terms. the Senate in Parliament assembled. recognise and maintain the role of the Australian We are dismayed at the continuing destruction of Broadcasting Corporation as a comprehensive, old growth and wilderness forests around Australia, mainstream and independent media organisation, despite the National Forest Policy Statement jointly and not just a complementary service to commer- signed by the Commonwealth and all States except cial media. Tasmania. recognise the ABC Charter as a valuable instru- Intensive logging, most often to feed a voracious ment for the expression of Australian cultural life woodchip industry is underway or planned for that should not be devalued as a result of economic many high conservation value forests. These forests and political considerations. should be protected by the commitments of the And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever Commonwealth and State Governments under the pray. NFPS. These forests include: by The President (from 87 citizens). Coolangubra Wilderness and other areas of the Repatriation Benefits S.E. Forests of NSW along with rainforest and To the Honourable the President and Members of other N.E. areas of NSW including Wingham, the Senate assembled in Parliament: Mistake, Richmond Range, Chaelundi, North Washpool, Barrington and Dorrigo. This petition of certain citizens of Australia, draws to the attention of the Senate the fact that The Southern Highlands, Great Western Tiers members of the Royal Australian Navy who served and Tarkine Wilderness of Tasmania. in Malaya between 1955 and 1960 are still the only The Karri and Jarrah forests of S.W. Western Australians, sent overseas on active service, whose Australia. service has not been recognised in three important The Errinundra Plateau and other areas of the areas: East Gippsland forests of Victoria. 1. R.A.N. casualties are not yet included on the The rainforests of the Proserpine region of Roll of Honour at the Australian War Memorial Queensland. alongside Army and R.A.A.F. casualties; We request that the Government act urgently to 2. R.A.N. service has not yet been recognised protect our precious forests by utilising the with the visible signs of service to Australia; the Commonwealth’s legal and constitutional powers, Returned from Active Service Badge and the Naval including: campaign medal; and Refusal of export woodchip licences 3. R.A.N. service is still not acknowledged as eligible service for the Australian Service Pension, Powers to control corporations while service by Commonwealth and allied veterans Protection of areas listed on the register of the from 55 other countries is. National Estate Members of the Army and R.A.A.F. who served Protection and effective funding of areas identi- during the same period in Malaya had their service fied for their World Heritage values. fully recognised 24 hours after arriving in Malaya. Genuine and effective action by the Government In the 1997 Budget the Government partly to protect these and other old growth and wilder- recognised that R.A.N. service was ‘operational’ ness forests is critical. A comprehensive plantation and accepted responsibility for disabilities resulting strategy rather than exploiting native forests is the from that service. However, government depart- way forward for a truly environmentally responsible ments are still resorting to old, and inventing new timber industry. We further request that the excuses, to deny the above 3 points. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2683

Your petitioners therefore request that the Senate forests, wilderness, rainforests and critical acts to help remove the injustice of 40 years and habitats of endangered species; fully recognise R.A.N. service by providing the facilitate rapid transition of the timber industry same recognition and benefits for that service. The from harvesting high conservation value native cost will be minuscule, being mainly a transfer of forests, to establishing mixed-species farm pensions from ‘age’ as paid by the Department of forestry on existing cleared and degraded lands, Social Security, to ‘service’ pensions, paid by the using non-toxic methods to protect ecological Department of Veterans’ Affairs. sustainability; by Senator Kemp (from seven citizens). maximise use of readily-available plantation timber for industry needs, using appropriate Legal Aid forestry techniques and progressive minimal- To the Honourable the President of the Senate and waste processing methods, such as radial sawing, Members of the Senate of the Australian Parliament and wherever possible, reuse and recycle wood assembled. and paper products; The Petition of the citizens of Australia brings to support incentives for nationwide employment the attention of the Senate the Federal in composting, soil remineralisation programs, Government’s plan to make major cuts to Legal and the planting programs of trees and annual Aid funds. fibre crops, inter-grown with appropriate fruit The Federal Government plans to cut $40 million and nut trees and medicinal plants; annually from Legal Aid funding. encourage sensitively-managed, environmental Last year, 250,000 people were assisted national- education tourism in appropriate forest areas, ly. However, if these cuts go ahead, many Austral- with full respect for natural ecosystems, Aborigi- ians will be denied access to a wide range of nal cultural heritage, sacred sites and other sites services, and only the well-off will be able to of significance; and access the justice system. progressively utilise technological expertise The undersigned petitioners therefore ask the and resources transferred from the military Senate to call on the Federal Government to protect sector, to help implement these tree planting every Australian’s right to equal access to the solutions; and to motivate the international justice system by continuing to fund Legal Aid at community to follow this example. its pre-election level. And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever by Senator Margetts (from 814 citizens). pray. Forests by Senator Margetts (from 160 citizens). To the Honourable the President and Members of Native Title the Senate in Parliament assembled. To Honourable Members of the Senate in Parlia- For permanent protection of old-growth forests ment assembled: and all other areas of high conservation value, and The petition of the undersigned respectfully for the implementation of tree plantation strategies. showeth: This petition from the undersigned respectfully That we support the co-existence of Native Title points out that: there is an increasing and urgent and Pastoral Leases, as upheld in the recent Wik demand from the people, to protect all remaining judgment of the High Court, and believe that high conservation value forests which support flora further restriction of Aboriginal people’s access to and fauna unique to Australia, thus complying with their traditional lands will seriously diminish our the United Nations Biodiversity Convention to nation. which Australia is a signatory. We have a responsi- bility to future and present generations, and the Your petitioners most humbly pray that the Senate, necessary reasons, knowledge and technology to act in Parliament assembled, should call on the Federal now on the following achievable solutions. Government to: Your petitioners therefore request that the Senate 1. Endorse publicly and unequivocally the High legislate to: Court’s native title decisions as just and correct immediately stop all logging and woodchip- decisions; ping activities in high conservation value native 2. To stand firm in resisting any tampering with forests; the Native Title Act or the Racial Discrimination ensure intergenerational equity by planning for Act, and the rights of future generations, and protecting in 3. To endorse negotiation as the process which perpetuity all biologically diverse old-growth will make co-existence workable for all parties. 2684 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 by Senator Margetts (from 307 citizens). made under subsection 115B(1) of the Veter- ans Entitlements Act 1986 Multilateral Agreement on Investment To the Honourable the President and Members of Introduction of Legislation the Senate in the Parliament assembled. Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales)— The Petition of the undersigned draws to the I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, attention of the Senate, the deleterious effects of I shall move: the Multilateral Agreement on Investment. That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for Your petitioners ask the Senate to call on the an Act to provide for the establishment and admin- Australian Government to: istration of a scheme to guarantee the payment of 1. Make available the draft text of the Agree- wages and certain other liabilities owed to employ- ment. ees in the event of employer insolvency, and for 2. Make a public statement about its intentions related purposes. Employee Protection (Wage with regard to the signing of the MAI, detailing the Guarantee) Bill 1998 [No. 2]. beneficiaries of the Agreement, and accountability measures for all corporations. Regulations and Ordinances Committee 3. Not sign the MAI unless substantive amend- Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—At the ment is made, including the observance of interna- request of Senator O’Chee, on behalf of the tional agreements including environment, labour, Standing Committee on Regulations and health and safety and human rights standards. Ordinances, I give notice that at the giving of 4. Extend the deadline for signing the MAI to notices on the next day of sitting he will enable full and proper public consultations to be withdraw business of the Senate notice of held. motion No 1 standing in his name for the next by Senator Faulkner (from 78 citizens). day of sitting for the disallowance of the Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), Youth Allowance as contained in Statutory Rules 1997 No 400 To the Honourable the President and Members of and made under the Therapeutic Goods Act the Senate in the Parliament assembled. 1989. I seek leave to incorporate in Hansard The petition of the undersigned recognises the the committee’s correspondence concerning potentially disastrous effects of the Youth Allow- these regulations. ance Bill recently passed by Parliament. Introduc- tion of the Youth Allowance will reduce partici- Leave granted. pation in Higher Education as a result of economic The correspondence reads as follows— hardship. We ask that you review the eligibility require- Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment) ments, and the levels of income available to Statutory Rules 1997 No 400 recipients with a view to raising the levels of 11 March 1998 income support comparable to the 1997/98 unem- ployment allowances. The Hon Trish Worth MP by The President (from 219 citizens). Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health and Family Services Petitions received. Parliament House NOTICES OF MOTION CANBERRA ACT 2600 Regulations and Ordinances Committee Dear Parliamentary Secretary Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—At the I refer to the following amendments of the Thera- peutic Goods Regulations. request of Senator O’Chee and on behalf of the Regulations and Ordinances Committee, Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), pursuant to notice given at the last day of Statutory Rules 1997 No 398 sitting, I now withdraw business of the Senate Regulations 13.2 to 13.4 add further sets of fees to notice of motion No. 1 standing in his name Schedule 9 of the Principal Regulations. While the Explanatory Statement accurately describes the for today for the disallowance of the effect of these provisions, it does not provide Veterans’ Vocational Rehabilitation Scheme information on the basis on which the fees have as contained in instrument No. 5 of 1997 been set. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2685

Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), Committee’s terms of reference is to ensure that Statutory Rules 1997 No 399 legislative instruments do not contain matter more New subregulation 16J(1) requires the Secretary to appropriate for parliamentary enactment. consider an application for a drug to be designated The Committee notes that both the enabling Act an orphan drug but does not specify that this task and the Regulations provide for eventual review of should be carried out within any particular time. In decisions by the AAT. The Committee would this context, s.60(4) of the enabling Act and appreciate your assurance that the present four sets subregulation 48(4) of the Principal Regulations of regulations will not affect adversely the conduct provide that a failure to reconsider within 60 days or the outcome of any case presently before the is taken to be a confirmation of the original deci- AAT by a person challenging a decision under the sion. The Committee suggests that a similar legislation. provision may be appropriate in this case. The Committee would be grateful for your advice Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), on the above matters. Statutory Rules 1997 No 400 Yours sincerely The definition of mainstream media in r.5B is Bill O’Chee unclear. For one thing, it refers to any magazine or newspaper for consumers but does not indicate Chairman what class of person is included within the notion of consumers. Does it refer to the consumers of therapeutic goods or to consumers of other pro- 23 MAR 1998 ducts? The definition might also be regarded as unnecessarily broad as it would, for instance, Senator W G O’Chee apparently encompass a magazine for consumers Chairman containing only a range of competitions. Senate Standing Committee on Regulations and New rr.5K and 5L permit the Secretary to vary the Ordinances conditions of an approval, or to withdraw an Parliament House approval. The Committee notes that those decisions are subject to review by ministerial and AAT CANBERRA ACT 2600 review. Subregulation 5M(6), however, provides Dear Senator O’Chee that a request for a review of the Secretary’s I refer to your letter of 11 March 1998 relating to decision does not affect the operation of that Statutory Rules 1997 Nos 398-401. The following decision. Neither rr.5K or 5L prevent the Secretary information is provided in response to the matters from issuing a notice of variation or withdrawal raised in your correspondence. with immediate effect, which could have unfair financial implications for the intending advertiser Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), of the relevant product. Statutory Rules Regulation 19 provides for the fees that are to be 1997 No 398 charged on an application for approval of an "Regulations 13.2 to 13.4 add further sets of fees advertisement, but the Explanatory Statement does to Schedule 9 of the Principal Regulation. While not indicate the basis on which those fees have the Explanatory Statement accurately describes the been set. Furthermore, paragraph (c) of the regula- effect of these provisions, it does not provide tion refers to an advertorial, which is presumably information on the basis on which the fees have something other than an advertisement, and for been set." which there is no warrant in the regulations for charging fees since advertorials do not need . The fees have been set in line with the approval under r.5F. Government’s decision for the Therapeutic Goods Administration [TGA] to move to 100% Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), cost recovery of its activities. These new fees Statutory Rules 1997 Nos 398-401 represent the role of the TGA in carrying out The Committee notes that these four sets of Regu- evaluation and certification on behalf of the lations were all made on the same day. This would European Commission under the Mutual Recog- appear to be a duplication of effort. nition Agreement between Australia and the All four sets of regulations provide for important European Commission. It will enable Australian matters affecting the general administration of Manufacturers to mark their products so they can therapeutic goods. These appear to be of sufficient be sold without further evaluation in European importance that it may be more appropriate to countries. address them through amendment of the enabling . 13.2 Introduces a new fee [$5,660] for the Act, where the changes would be subject to full review of data submitted by the sponsor of a parliamentary debate. In this context one of the therapeutic device to establish that software 2686 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

meets specifications. This fee is consistent with "The definition of mainstream media in r.5B is the fee already included in Schedule 9 Item 6 of unclear. For one thing, it refers to any magazine the Therapeutic Goods Regulations at p.76 for or newspaper for consumers but does not indicate the review of other categories of data. what class of person is included within the notion of consumers. Does it refer to the consumers of . 13.3(a) Introduces a new fee [$2,465] for the therapeutic goods or to consumers of other pro- evaluation of overseas reports and summary data ducts? The definition might also be regarded as for therapeutic devices. This fee is consistent unnecessarily broad as it would, for instance, with the fee for the review of data under Sched- apparently encompass a magazine for consumers ule 9 Item 5(A) of the Therapeutic Goods containing only a range of competitions." Regulations. . 13.3(b) Introduces a new fee [$1,070] for the . The Macquarie Dictionary definition of ‘con- evaluation of overseas reports or data submitted sumer’ is "one who or that which consumes" and in support of an application where the sponsor "one who uses a commodity or service". In this submits more than one application at the same context the commodity or services is therapeutic time and the data submitted is sufficiently goods. common to allow simultaneous evaluation of . A ‘consumer’ is anyone who may consume each of the applications. This fee is in line with therapeutic goods other than health professionals. the fee applicable under Therapeutic Goods Regulation 4 of the Therapeutic Goods Regula- Regulation 45(11)(a). tions defines health professionals as a class of . 13.4 Introduces a new fee [$2,800] for the people to whom advertisements may be directed evaluation of data submitted to support changes without being subject to this part of the Regula- to software for an existing registered device. This tions. fee is consistent with the charge for review of . The definition of "mainstream media" in the biocompatibility data as specified in Item 7(a)(c). Regulations parallels the arrangements used by Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), the Australian Publishers Bureau when clearing Statutory Rules 1997 No 399 print media advertisements. "New subregulation 16J(1) required the Secretary . The definition was included to ensure that to consider an application for a drug to be desig- arrangements for the clearance of print media nated an orphan drug but does not specify that this advertisements are the same as those previously task should be carried out within any particular applied by the Media Council of Australia and time. In this context, s. 60(4) of the enabling Act the Australian Publishers Bureau. and subregulation 48(4) of the Principal Regula- . The Media Council of Australia—which com- tions provide that a failure to reconsider within 60 prised all major print and broadcast media days is taken to be a confirmation of the original proprietors—administered the arrangements for decision. The Committee suggests that a similar the development and ongoing maintenance of the provision may be appropriate in this case." code of advertising for therapeutic goods up until . This regulation relates to the new orphan drugs the end of 1996. program which is modelled on the US Food and "New rr.5K and 5L permit the Secretary to vary the Drug Administration [FDA] Orphan Drugs conditions of an approval, or to withdraw an Program. The arrangements to apply to the approval. The Committee notes that those decisions Australian program have been agreed between are subject to review by ministerial and AAT the Australian Pharmaceutical Manufacturers review. Subregulation 5M(6), however, provides Association [APMA] and the Therapeutic Goods that a request for a review of the Secretary’s Administration [TGA]. decision does not affect the operation of that . The time taken to evaluate products seeking decision. Neither rr.5K or 5L prevent the Secretary ‘orphan’ status is as yet unknown and is affected from issuing a notice of variation of withdrawal to a significant degree by the time it takes to with immediate effect, which could have unfair obtain relevant data from the FDA. financial implications for the intending advertiser of the relevant product." . The APMA and TGA have agreed to review the implementation of the program at the end of the . If an advertisement fails to comply with the first twelve months of operation [ie. December conditions of approval, the Secretary has the 1998] with a view to incorporating appropriate right to withdraw or vary that approval. statutory time frames for evaluation in the regulations. . This regulation recognises the inappropriateness of allowing a breach to continue [which, for Therapeutic Goods Regulation (Amendment), example may harm public health] whilst an Statutory Rules 1997 No 400 appeal against a decision was initiated. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2687

. The Nutritional Foods Association of Australia was undertaken at the request of industry. The and the Proprietary Medicines Association of Nutritional Foods Association of Australia and Australia both agreed that it would not be the Proprietary Medicines Association of Austral- appropriate to allow breaches of the Therapeutic ia wrote to the Government in October 1997 Goods Advertising Code to continue whilst an requesting that the Code be underpinned in appeal is under way. regulation as a matter of priority. This request "Regulation 19 provides for the fees that are to be was undertaken. charged on an application for approval of an . The Committee’s attention is drawn to the fact advertisement, but the Explanatory Statement does that the arrangements now provided for in the not indicate the basis on which those fees have regulations have been in place since 1977. The been set. Furthermore, paragraph (c) of the effect of including these arrangements in regula- regulation refers to an advertorial, which is tions will be to provide greater transparency and presumably something other than an advertisement, accountability, including rights of appeal. and for which there is no warrant in the regula- . At the same time, certain other measures re- tions for charging fees since advertorials do not quired clarification. These were intentionally need approval under r.5F." presented as separate regulations [398 and 401] . The fees and charges specified in these Regula- to distinguish them from the pre-existing Thera- tions are identical to those charged by the peutic Goods Advertising Code. It would not be Australian Publishers Bureau for the clearance of appropriate to amend the enabling Act because advertisements under the previous arrangements these are amendments to existing regulations. auspiced by the Media Council of Australia. "The Committee notes that both the enabling Act . TGA is aware that the term ‘advertorial’ at Item and the Regulations provide for eventual reviews 17(c) of Schedule 9 of the Therapeutic Goods of decisions by the AAT. The Committee would Regulations already exists within the definition appreciate your assurance that the present four sets of advertisement in the Therapeutic Goods Act. of regulations will not affect adversely the conduct Schedule 9 will, as a matter of course, be updat- or the outcome of any case presently before the ed before the end of the financial year to reflect AAT by a person challenging a decision under the new fees and charges, and at this time the word legislation." ‘advertorials’ will also be removed from the . The current Regulations clarify the existing law. schedule. There is currently a definition of ‘drugs’ in the . An ‘advertorial’ is a form of advertising. As the Therapeutic Goods Regulations under Regulation guidelines for Advertising Therapeutic Goods to 2 as follows: the Public explain, "Advertorial is a term used "drugs" means: by advertisers and publishers to describe the situation where what might appear to be bona (a) therapeutic goods that are presented to fide editorial comment, is in fact an advertise- achieve, or are likely to achieve, their ment for a particular product". principal intended action by pharmacologi- cal, chemical, immunological or metabolic Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), means in or on the body of a person or an Statutory Rules 1997 Nos 398-401 animal" "The Committee notes that these four sets of . Any claim in an advertisement that a product Regulations were all made on the same day. This coming within the definition of ‘drug’ is ‘drug- would appear to be a duplication of effort." free’ would therefore be inconsistent with the "All four sets of regulations provide for important terms of the existing legislation. matters affecting the general administration of . The changes effected by the four (4) sets of therapeutic goods. These appear to be of sufficient Regulation should not adversely affect the importance that it may be more appropriate to conduct or outcome of any case presently before address them through amendment of the enabling the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Act where the changes would be subject to full parliamentary debate. In this context one of the . There is only one relevant case presently before Committee’s terms of reference is to ensure that the Administrative Appeals Tribunal that relates legislative instruments do not contain matter more to the subject matter of Statutory Rule 401. A appropriate for parliamentary enactment." challenge has been mounted against the decision of a delegate of the Secretary to issue a notice . Three of the four regulations [398, 400 and 401] under Regulation 7 of the Therapeutic Goods all refer to similar subject matter contained Regulations to prevent a person publishing an within the Therapeutic Goods Advertising Code. advertisement that drugs are ‘drug free’. This . Regulation 400 underpins the Therapeutic Goods matter is still before the Administrative Appeals Advertising Code in regulation. This measure Tribunal and action taken to amend the Regula- 2688 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

tions should not affect the ability of the Adminis- The Committee suggests that if a body with the trative Appeals Tribunal to review the delegate’s expertise and experience of the Committee has actions to determine whether the issue of the difficulty with the drafting then those people notice should have occurred. Similarly, the directly affected, who would not usually be law- amendments to the regulations should not affect yers, would have similar difficulties. the outcome of the decision of the Administra- In this context the Committee notes that the last tive Appeals Tribunal on the matter. reprint of the Therapeutic Goods Regulations . However, the new regulations will, as of the date appears to have been on 8 March 1995 and was 86 of the amendment, preclude any advertisement pages long. Since then there have been 15 separate from being published with a claim that drugs are amendments of the Regulations amounting to 112 ‘drug free’. pages, not including Statutory Rules 1996 No 25, Yours sincerely which was disallowed by the House of Representa- tives on 10 September 1996. At present, therefore, TRISH WORTH amendments of the Regulations are longer than the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health reprinted Regulations themselves. This must be and Family Services confusing for users, who would find it difficult to know whether they are complying with the law. The Committee would appreciate your advice that 30 March 1998 you have asked for a reprint to be produced as a matter of priority. The Hon. Trish Worth MP The Committee also wrote to you about provisions Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health under which the Secretary may withdraw or vary and Family Services an approval. These decisions are subject to merits Parliament House review but may take effect immediately, with what CANBERRA ACT 2600 the Committee suggested could be unfair results. Your reply referred to the inappropriate conse- Dear Parliamentary Secretary quences of allowing breaches to continue while an I refer to your letter of 23 March 1998 relating to appeal is initiated. The Committee suggest, how- the Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), ever, that the fundamental point is that there is a Statutory Rules 1997 Nos 398—401. difference of opinion between the Secretary and the Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), person affected about what is a breach. The deci- Statutory Rules 1997 No 398 sion of the AAT may well be that no breach has occurred. In such a case the advertiser may there- Your advice in respect of the basis of fees met the fore lose business because the approval was concerns of the Committee. I point out, however, wrongly withdrawn. Nevertheless, the Committee that if the Explanatory Statement for these Regula- is prepared to accept the present position on the tions had included the usual and long-established basis of an assurance from you that appropriate practice of providing this information then it would financial compensation will be paid to advertisers not have been necessary for the Committee to write if the AAT decides in their favour. on this matter. The Committee also wrote to you about fees in Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), these Regulations and about an apparent invalid Statutory Rules 197 No 399 reference to advertorials . Your reply indicated that Your advice that the Regulations would be amend- the fees and charges were the same as the previous ed to provide a statutory time frame for decisions arrangements. These fees are, however, now on orphan drugs following a review of the program provided for in the Regulations and the Committee by the APMA and TGA met the concerns of the assumes that they are based on cost recovery, Committee. It would be appreciated if you could because there does not appear to be legal authority, write to the Committee as soon as the review is for instance, for the fees to raise revenue. The completed. Committee is grateful for your advice that the Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), reference to advertorials will be deleted before the Statutory Rules 1997 No 400 end of the present financial year. The Committee wrote to you about the clarity of Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), drafting of these Regulations. Following your reply Statutory Rules 1997 Nos 398—401 the Committee remains concerned about the quality The Committee asked about the need to make four of drafting and would appreciate your advice that separate sets of Regulations on the same day. Your you have asked the APMA and TGA review to reply advises that three of them (Nos 398, 400 and address particularly this question and to suggest 401) all refer to similar subject matter but that they changes which would make the Regulations easier were intentionally presented separately. Your to understand and apply by those affected by them. advice is that No 400 does not represent a change Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2689 in the existing arrangements, except apparently for a Bill. Such a undertaking would enable the the right of review, but that Nos 398 and 401 do. Committee to remove its notice of disallowance. Presumably No 399 also changes the existing law. The Committee’s actions in respect of the Thera- The Committee does not press the point relating to peutic Goods Regulations, like its actions in respect duplication of effort but points out that sound of all legislative instruments, are directed to protect public administration usually does not require the personal rights and parliamentary propriety. The Governor-General to make four sets of statutory Committee does not deal with policy and does not rules, with the same title, made under the same have a view on the policy aspects of No 401. Its enabling Act, on the same day, with gazettal on the aim is to protect the rights of Parliament. same day, amending the same Principal Regula- tions. Administrative Appeals Tribunal case You have advised that there is only one present Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), AAT case that relates to the subject matter of No Statutory Rules 1997 Nos 398—401 401 and that the present Regulations should not The Committee wrote to you suggesting that the affect the ability of the AAT to decide whether a four sets of Regulations are sufficiently important notice should have been issued. Here again the that it may be more appropriate to address the Committee assumes that if the matter is decided matters with which they deal through amendment against the delegate of the Secretary then suitable of the enabling Act, when the changes would be financial compensation will be paid. subject to full parliamentary debate. The Committee Yours sincerely advised you that one of its terms of reference is to Bill O’Chee ensure that legislative instruments do not contain matter more appropriate for parliamentary enact- Chairman ment. Your reply dealt with this question briefly, advising that it would not be appropriate to amend the enabling Act because these are amendments of 11 May 1998 existing regulations. Senator W G O’Chee With great respect, your advice lacks merit. For the Chairman, Standing Committee purposes of the Committee’s terms of reference it is irrelevant whether an instrument amends an on Regulations and Ordinances existing instrument. The Committee’s mandate to Parliament House ensure that legislative instruments do not contain CANBERRA ACT 2600 matter more appropriate for an Act is an important safeguard for parliamentary propriety and one Dear Senator O’Chee which the Committee is especially vigilant to Thank you for your letter of 30 March 1998 enforce. The very first Report of the Committee in regarding the Therapeutic Goods Statutory Rules 1932 dealt with this aspect of its terms of reference 398—401. and the Committee has received undertakings since Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), that date from Ministers to place matters, initially Statutory Rules 1997 No 398 included in legislative instruments, in Bills. The attitude of the Committee is this respect is express- Your advice in respect of the basis of fees met the ed by a reported quotation from Sir Robert Garran, concerns of the Committee. I point out, however, whose opinion was that the Committee was the that if the Explanatory Statement for these most important in Parliament because "its duty was Regulations had included the usual and long- to see that Parliament ran the country with legisla- established practice of providing this information tion not the Executive with regulations and ordi- then it would not have been necessary for the nances", Senate Hansard, 17 August 1971, p.195. Committee to write on this matter. Sir Robert was a counsel who helped draft the I am glad that the additional detail on fees and Constitution and the first Commonwealth Solicitor- charges was useful and I acknowledge the benefit General. of more expansive information. As you know, the subject matter of No 401 is Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), contentious and is the subject of considerable Statutory Rules 1997 No 399 public concern. The Committee has noted your Your advice that the Regulations would be amend- further advice that you have established a commit- ed to provide a statutory time frame for decisions tee of review to examine the issues contained in No on orphan drugs following a review of the pro- 401, and that you intend to table the results of that gram by the APMA and TGA met the concerns of review in Parliament. The Committee would the Committee. It would be appreciated if you therefore appreciate your advice that following this could write to the Committee as soon as the review the material in No 401 will be included in review is completed. 2690 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

I have asked the Therapeutic Goods Administration on the basis of an assurance from you that to write to the Committee when the review of this appropriate financial compensation will be paid issue is completed. to advertisers if the AAT decides in their favour. Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), As you are aware, there has been a longstanding Statutory Rules 1997 No 400 co-regulatory approach to the advertising of thera- The Committee wrote to you about the clarity of peutic goods in the broadcast media, and under the drafting of these Regulations...... and would proposed new arrangements, industry will be appreciate your advice that you have asked the responsible for pre-clearance of print advertise- APMA and TGA review to address particularly ments to the public. this question and to suggest changes which would The industry organisations, the Proprietary Medi- make the Regulations easier to understand and cines Association of Australia (PMAA) and the apply by those affected by them. Nutritional Foods Association of Australia (NFAA) . . . the Committee notes that the last reprint of who will be responsible for granting approval for the Therapeutic Goods Regulations appears to advertisements, requested that authority be given to have been on 8 March 1995 and was 86 pages the Secretary to withdraw or vary an approval in long. Since then there have been 15 separate specific circumstances—such as where an adver- amendments of the Regulations amounting to 112 tisement has been granted approval based on false pages, not including Statutory Rules 1996 No 25, or incorrect information provided by the product which was disallowed by the House of Representa- sponsor/advertiser. This power granted to the tives on 10 September 1996. Secretary is important for ensuring that the industry organisations can uphold their delegated powers At present, therefore, amendment of the Regula- under the law and properly administer the Thera- tions are longer than the reprinted Regulations peutic Goods Advertising Code. This power also themselves. This must be confusing for users, who ensures that there is consistency in application of would find it difficult to know whether they are the Code across the industry. Without this regula- complying with the law. The Committee would tory provision, a product sponsor who did not appreciate your advice that you have asked for a comply for example with the conditions for an reprint to he produced as a matter of priority. advertisement but who was not an industry organi- The Attorney General’s Department is responsible sation member could continue to run the advertise- for the reprinting of legislation and regulations. ment. Similar action by an industry organisation However, I have asked the Therapeutic Goods member would lead to significant sanctions. Administration to write to the Attorney General’s I would like to stress that the power of the Secre- Department to bring the concerns of your Commit- tary to withdraw or alter approval for an advertise- tee to their attention and request an early reprint of ment, would only be used in exceptional circum- the regulations. I have also asked the TGA to look stances and following discussions with sponsors at any possible changes to the regulations which and advertisers. Also, there is certainly no impedi- would make them easier to understand and apply. ment to a sponsor/advertiser publishing another The Government has also given a recent commit- advertisement for the same product that does meet ment to prepare a plain English guide to the the requirements of the Code. Therapeutic Goods legislation to enable consumers, manufacturers and retailers to obtain clear and To ensure that the system of coregulation for print concise information about the regulation of thera- advertising is working effectively, I have asked that peutic goods. the effectiveness of this arrangement be reviewed within 12 months of implementation of these The Committee also wrote to you about provisions regulations. under which the Secretary may withdraw or vary an approvaL These decisions are subject to merits In relation to the appeal of decisions by the Secre- review but may take effect immediately, with what tary, the arrangements proposed by the regulations the Committee suggested could be unfair results. are in accordance with normal appeal arrangements Your reply referred to the inappropriate conse- to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Under quences of allowing breaches to continue while an these arrangements a decision which is appealed appeal is initiated. The Committee suggest, against in the AAT remains in place until the AAT however, that the fundamental points that there reverses the decision, or unless an applicant is a difference of opinion between the Secretary successfully applies to the AAT for a stay of the and the person affected about what is a breach. original decision until the AAT makes a decision The decision of the AAT may well be that no on the matter. breach has occurred. In such a case the advertiser The AAT does not have the power to make orders may therefore lose business because the approval awarding any compensation. An applicant would was wrongly withdrawn. Nevertheless, the Com- normally successfully seek compensation where, for mittee is prepared to accept the present position example a tort has been committed—such as where Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2691 the decision maker acted negligently or maliciously. requirements for the advertising of therapeutic But this must be established through the normal goods, are necessary and convenient to give effect judicial process. The Australian Government to the Act. Solicitor’s office has confirmed that compensating Section 63(2)(a) of the Therapeutic Goods Act successful applicants following an AAT appeal is provides for minor amendments through regulation not the current practice nor a desirable precedent in relation to committees and paragraph 63(2)(c) of given the extraordinary number of day-to-day the Act provides for the Governor General to make administrative decisions are made and that may be regulations for advertising of therapeutic goods. potentially reviewed by the AAT. In addition, because the AAT has jurisdiction to review deci- While I acknowledge that there has been some sions on their merits, the AAT may arrive at a controversy over the amendments to the Therapeu- different decision to that of the original decision tic Goods Regulations, the majority of the contro- maker’s, even where the latter’s decision cannot be versy has resulted from misinformation about the faulted at law. In such circumstances, it would be effects of the amendments. In fact none of the inappropriate to compensate an applicant where the proposed amendments affect consumers’ access to original decision may be correct at law. therapeutic goods and they will not affect the status quo in relation to the advertising of these products. The Committee also wrote to you about fees in As the amendments were not intended to introduce these Regulations and about an apparent invalid significant change to current arrangements, the reference to advertorials. Your reply indicated that amendments were made to the regulations covering the fees and charges were the same as the previ- these activities. ous arrangements. These fees are, however, now provided for in the Regulations and the Committee As you know, the subject matter of No 401 is assumes that they are based on cost recovery, contentious and is the subject of considerable because there does not appear to be legal authori- public concern. The Committee has noted your ty, for instance, for the fees to raise revenue. further advice that you have established a commit- tee of review to examine the issues contained in The fees which are referred to in the regulations are No 401. Its aim is to protect the rights of Parlia- based on cost recovery (in accordance with the ment. Government’s decision for the TGA to move to 100% cost recovery for its activities). I acknowledge the apparent complexity of the legislation and the uncertainty caused by the Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment), prohibition of the use of the term ‘drug free’. Statutory Rules 1997 Nos 398-401 The special Committee to consider the use of the The Committee wrote to you suggesting that the term ‘drug free’ is mandated to examine whether four sets of Regulations are sufficiently important the use of the term drug free is appropriate when that it may be more appropriate to address the advertising certain medicinal products, and what matters with which they deal through amendment alternatives might be used to accurately promote of the enabling Act, when the changes would be such products. I cannot preempt the deliberations subject to full parliamentary debate. The Commit- of the Committee but I have asked the Committee tee advised you that one of its terms of reference to report to me by 8th May 1998. As you are is to ensure that legislative instruments do not aware, the findings of the Committee will be tabled contain matter more appropriate for parliamentary in Parliament along with the Government’s re- enactment. Your reply dealt with this question sponse to the recommendations. briefly, advising that it would not be appropriate to amend the enabling Act because these are The Committee has continued its work despite the amendments of existing regulations. disallowance of Statutory Rule 401 by a resolution of the Senate on 31 March 1998. With great respect, your advice lacks merit. For the purposes of the Committee’s terms of refer- Administrative Appeals Tribunal case ence it is irrelevant whether an instrument You have advised that there is only one present amends an existing instrument. The Committee’s AAT case that relates to the subject matter of No mandate to ensure that legislative instruments do 401 and that the present Regulations should not not contain matter more appropriate for an Act is affect the ability of the AAT to decide whether a an important safeguard for parliamentary propri- notice should have been issued Here again the ety and which the Committee is especially vigilant Committee assumes that if the matter is decided to enforce. against the delegate of the Secretary then suitable When the Parliament relatively recently passed the financial compensation will be paid. Therapeutic Goods Act in 1991, it made provision I am advised that the advertiser in question has for certain matters to be detailed in regulations. It apparently continued to use the term ‘drug free’ in is the Government’s belief that the current amend- advertisements despite (a) notification by the TGA ments presently before the Senate, which prescribe in October 1996 that this was in breach of Thera- 2692 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 peutic Goods Regulation No.7; and (b) losing the with the float of the remaining two-thirds appeal against the initial decision. of Telstra; and In these circumstances it would appear difficult to (b) by the Minister representing the Minister for quantify any loss of business. Finance and Administration (Senator Thank you again for your detailed comments and Kemp): I trust that this letter has helped clarify a number (i) all documents identifying the estimates of of outstanding issues. Please contact me if you probable return from the sale of the require any additional information. remaining two-thirds of Telstra, and the detailed breakdown of the $580 million Yours sincerely estimated cost of the sale, and TRISH WORTH (ii) all documents identifying the costs in- Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health curred in the sale of the first third of and Family Services Telstra by the Government or any depart- ment of Government. Royal Flying Doctor Service Introduction of Legislation Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Minister for Schools, Vocational Education Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— and Training)—At the request of Senator Ian Minister for Schools, Vocational Education Campbell, I give notice that, on the next day and Training)—I give notice that, on the next of sitting, he will move: day of sitting, I shall move: That the Senate— That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to make consequential amendments related (a) notes: to the enactment of the Financial Sector Reform (i) the role the Royal Flying Doctor Service (Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Act (RFDS) fulfils in performing a vital 1998, and for other purposes. Financial Sector medical service covering 7 150 000 Reform (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1998. square kilometres or 80 per cent of the Australian continent, and Introduction of Legislation (ii) that the RFDS was established on 15 May Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— 1928, and celebrates its 70th year of Minister for Schools, Vocational Education operation on 15 May 1998; and and Training)—I give notice that, on the next (b) commends the RFDS and all associated with day of sitting, I shall move: it for the invaluable contribution made to That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for our nation over this significant period of an Act to amend the law relating to elections and time. referendums. Electoral and Referendum Amend- ment Bill (No. 2) 1998. Telstra Senator BOURNE (New South Wales)—I Toxic Waste give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I Senator ALLISON (Victoria)—I give shall move: notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall That the following documents be laid on the move: table no later than 3 pm on 25 May 1998: That the Senate— (a) by the Minister for Communications, the (a) notes that: Information Economy and the Arts (Senator (i) 15 000 people attended a meeting in the Alston): week beginning 3 May 1998 at Werribee (i) any document identifying by locality, to protest about the establishment of a town or suburb, the location of the reduc- toxic waste dump in the area, tions in the number of Telstra employees, (ii) the Premier of Victoria (Mr Kennett) and gave an undertaking in 1986 that the (ii) any document generated by the Depart- State Government would not allow a ment of Communication and the Arts or toxic waste disposal to be built at Werri- commissioned by the department from bee, any person or corporation about the pric- (iii) on 12 May 1998, local governments ing of the sale of the remaining two- around Melbourne called on the State thirds of Telstra, or the costs associated Government to reject the proposal, Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2693

(iv) CSR Limited, the proponent of the dump, the Australian Aerial Medical Service, has a record of substantial environmental later becoming the RFDS, abuse and, as such, is not an appropriate (iv) John Flynn began with a simple idea, to company to manage such an environ- give people in the outback access to a mentally-sensitive proposal as a toxic general practitioner and a flying emergen- dump, cy room, (v) the proposed dump threatens the liveli- hood of market gardeners in the area, (v) this noble goal has not changed in the who currently produce 80 per cent of intervening years, Melbourne’s vegetables, (vi) to the 400 000 people who are part of the (vi) the dump will, according to the Flying Doctors’ territory, the service it proponent’s consultants, leak at least 21 provides is not only medical but also an million litres of fugitive leachate in its emotional support, and first 15 years of operation, (vii) the RFDS is a non-profit, non- (vii) the proposal ignores the Environmental denominational organisation that is Protection Authority (EPA) waste completely independent in its adminis- management policy, which requires tration; proper storage of prescribed waste for (b) commends the 312 doctors, flight nurses, monitoring and later retrieval for re- pilots and radio operators who occupy cycling, and thirteen bases which cover an area of 6 900 (viii) there are no provisions for dust emis- 000 square kilometres for their unstinting sions or fire impacts; and dedication to those in their care; and (b) calls on the Federal Government to: (c) expresses its confidence that the deep-rooted sense of an Australian community which (i) take a proactive role in this issue and put underpins the ideals of the RFDS will help in place a national prescribed waste plan it continue to be a symbol of Australian to manage and minimise the toxic materi- determination and ingenuity and to make a al being disposed to landfill, significant contribution to medical treatment (ii) develop measures which would assist the in the 20th century. EPA to meet its objective of phasing out altogether the need to dispose of such Natural Heritage Trust material, and Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—I give (iii) put in place a prescribed waste levy notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall system similar to that imposed on domes- tic waste to fund such a plan. move: That the Senate— Royal Flying Doctor Service (a) notes that: Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— (i) the Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- Leader of the Opposition in the Senate)—I ate (Senator Faulkner) alleged on 3 give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I March 1998 that: shall move: (A) the Natural Heritage Trust (NHT) grant That the Senate— awarded to Woodhouse Pastoral Com- (a) notes that: pany (the company) was for the private benefit of the Baillieu family and was (i) on 15 May 1998, Australia celebrates 70 a ‘rort’, years of the Royal Flying Doctor Service (RFDS) overcoming the isolation and (B) Richard Percy Clive Baillieu was the sheer logistical difficulty of this vast current secretary, and that he and Mau- continent with a commitment that is rice Howard Lawrence Baillieu were unwavering, involved in this ‘rort’, and (ii) it is 70 years since Dr George Simpson (C) John Madden Baillieu was Chairman of chose the first flying doctor’s base at EL & C Baillieu when the company Cloncurry, from which the first flight was awarded the NHT grant, departed in May 1928, (ii) the NHT grant to the company is to (iii) this fledgling service survived the Great protect the largest area of remnant grey Depression and other setbacks until, in box and bull oak woodland south of the 1933, Reverend John Flynn established Great Dividing Range, 2694 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

(iii) the woodland in question is listed on the (xii) the Auditor-General’s report no. 42 of National Estate for its ecological signifi- 1997-98 on the Natural Heritage Trust cance, containing a number of rare and found that ‘the decision-making process threatened species, including 5 per cent of is fundamentally sound in providing the known Australian population of swift transparency and rigour and there was parrots, no evidence of systemic bias in the allocation of funds to projects’, (iv) this 270 hectares of woodland is half an (xiii) evidence would support the eligibility hour from the centre of Melbourne in an of the company for this NHT grant area where its value for residential devel- because the 270 hectare site is listed on opment would be tens of millions of the National Estate, the project is dollars and the owner is prepared to place supported by the Victorian Trust for a covenant on the title to protect this pre- Nature and the site is one of the few cious bush in perpetuity, remaining relatively large areas of natural vegetation on the basalt plains (v) a condition of the NHT grant is that the west of Melbourne, and company provide $29 500 from its own funds to augment the NHT contribution, (xiv) it is 72 days since Senator Faulkner made his incorrect statements; and (vi) the public investment of $52 900 for (b) calls on Senator Faulkner to apologise fencing, the removal of invasive non- immediately and unreservedly to the native species and the re-establishment of Baillieu family for the hurt and damage to corridors of vegetation to link this bush the family caused by his incorrect state- to other nearby remnants, represents ments. extraordinary value, COMMITTEES (vii) the Department of the Environment has assessed this project as among the best Selection of Bills Committee bushcare projects in Victoria, Report (viii) the Trust for Nature in Victoria, an Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.52 independent statutory authority set up p.m.)—I present the sixth report of 1998 of to protect remnant native bush on the Selection of Bills Committee and seek private land, stated the NHT grant was leave to have the report incorporated in a ‘fantastic deal’ for Australia, Hansard. (ix) Richard Percy Clive Baillieu died in Leave granted. 1941, The report read as follows— (x) Maurice Howard Lawrence Baillieu died REPORT NO. 6 OF 1998 in 1961, 1. The Committee met on 12 May 1998. (xi) John Madden Baillieu resigned as Chair- 2. The committee resolved: man of EL & C Baillieu nearly 3 years That the provisions of the following bills be ago, before the NHT was established, referred to committees:

Stage at which Legislation Bill title referred committee Reporting date Commonwealth Rehabilitation immediately Community Affairs 4 June 1998 Service Reform Bill 1998 (see appendix 1 for a statement of rea- sons for referral) Human Rights Legislation immediately Legal and Constitu- 10 August 1998 Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1998 (see tional appendices 2 and 3 for a statement of reasons for referral) Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2695

Stage at which Legislation Bill title referred committee Reporting date Stevedoring Levy (Collection) Bill immediately Rural and Regional 22 June 1998 1998 (see appendix 4 for a state- Affairs and Trans- ment of reasons for referral) port Stevedoring Levy (Imposition) immediately Rural and Regional 22 June 1998 Bill 1998 (see appendix 5 for a Affairs and Trans- statement of reasons for referral) port

3. The Committee resolved to recommend—That (Imposition) Bill 1998 (see appendix 6) and the following bills not be referred to commit- the Television Broadcasting Services (Digital tees: Conversion) Bill 1998 (see appendix 6), agreed . Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear that the provisions of the bills should be Safety Bill 1998 referred, but did not reach a decision on the committee to which the bills should be re- . Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear ferred or the reporting date. Safety (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1998 (Paul Calvert) . Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety (Licence Charges) Bill 1998 Chair . Australian Science, Technology and Engineer- 13 May 1998 ing Council Repeal Bill 1998 Appendix 1 . Cheques and Payment Orders Amendment Bill Name of bill: 1998 Commonwealth Rehabilitation Service Reform Bill . Cheques and Payment Orders Amendment 1998 (Turnback of Cheques) Bill 1998 Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- . Excise Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 1) 1998 sideration: . National Road Transport Commission Amend- Consideration needs to be given to the fact that the ment Bill 1998 Bill seeks to remove the guidance provided by Part . Payment Systems and Netting Bill 1998. III of the Disability Services Act; AAT appeal rights and the training allowance. There may be The Committee recommends accordingly. implications regarding workers compensation 4. The committee deferred consideration of the insurance for people placed in employment under following bills to the next meeting: the scheme. The potential effects of opening up the (deferred from meeting of 31 March 1998) disability services employment and rehabilitation market to private enterprise need further consider- . Australian Hearing Services Reform Bill 1998 ation especially in relation to services in regional (deferred from meeting of 7 April 1998) and remote areas. The way that the corporatised . Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1998 CRS is to interact with flex services needs to be examined, specifically the charging of fees for . Telecommunications (Carrier Licence Charges) service to both employers and job seekers. Issues Amendment Bill 1998 of accountability and the regulatory environment of (deferred from meeting of 12 May 1998) the scheme need further examination. . Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Bill Possible submissions or evidence from: 1998 Disability Services Australia, ACROD, Job Sup- . Fisheries Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) port, Disability Action, CRS, Disability Division— 1998 Department of Health and Family Services, CPSU . Income Tax (Untainting Tax) Bill 1998 Committee to which bill is to be referred: . National Measurement Amendment Bill 1998 Community Affairs Legislation Committee . Taxation Laws Amendment (Company Law Possible reporting date: Review) Bill 1998 4 June 1998 . Trade Practices Amendment (Country of Origin Representations) Bill 1998. (signed) 5. The committee considered a proposal to refer S. Conroy the provisions of the Datacasting Charge Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member 2696 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Appendix 2 Possible reporting date: Name of bill: 10 December 1998 Human Rights Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 2) (signed) 1998 S. Conroy Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member sideration: Provides for the reorganisation of the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, aspects of which are likely to be highly contentious. Explore the impact of the change to the structure Appendix 4 and operation of the Commission and the implica- Name of bill: tions of its new role on the effective delivery of Stevedoring Levy (Collection) Bill 1998 human rights to all Australians. Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Possible submission or evidence from: sideration: Attorney General’s Department the ability of the Parliament to scrutinise the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission activities of the Maritime Industry Finance Federation of Community Legal Centres Company; Women’s Electoral Lobby the possibility that payments under Section 17 of the Bill may be made directly or indirectly for Australian Law Reform Commission redundancies of people unlawfully dismissed, Committee to which bill is to be referred whose employment is terminated in a way Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee inconsistent with the provisions of the Stevedor- ing Industry Award or other industrial agree- Possible reporting date: ments, or whose employment is terminated as a As soon as practicable. result of corporate restructuring; (signed) payments being made under Section 17 of the Vicki Bourne Bill being directly or indirectly a substitute for appropriate redundancy provisions by employers Whip/Selection of Bill Committee member of stevedoring labour; the effect of the levy on Bass Strait trade; the imposition of the levy on cargo and vehicles Appendix 3 not handled by major stevedoring service provid- Name of bill: ers and for official purposes; Human Rights Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 2) and the imposition of the levy on stevedoring 1998 companies who do not wish to access payments Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- made under any scheme related to the Bill sideration: Possible submissions or evidence from: Appropriateness of new structure for the Commis- Stevedoring companies, shipping lines, unions, sion users of port services and other interested parties. Appropriateness of removal of specialist Commis- Committee to which bill is to be referred: sioners Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Refer- Appropriateness of controls exercised by the ences Committee Attorney-General of the Commissioners power to Possible hearing date: engage in litigation and the effect of this on the independence of the Commission. ASAP (29 May) Possible submissions or evidence from: Possible reporting date: HREOC, all community legal centres, WEL, 25 June 1998 disability discrimination groups, ATSIC, Law (signed) Council, FECCA S. Conroy Committee to which bill is to be referred: Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee. Possible hearing date: July-August 1998 Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2697

Appendix 5 1998 be referred to the Environment, Recrea- Name of bill: tion, Communications and the Arts Reference Committee for inquiry and report by 2 Novem- Stevedoring Levy (Imposition) Bill 1998 ber 1998 with particular reference to the Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- following matters: sideration: i. the capacity of the Australian broadcasting the ability of the Parliament to scrutinise the industry; the Australian manufacturing indus- activities of the Maritime Industry Finance try; and Australian consumers to be adequately Company; prepared for the commencement of digital the possibility that payments under Section 17 of broadcasting on 1 January 2001; the Bill may be made directly or indirectly for ii. the need for an appropriate "phase-in" redundancies of people unlawfully dismissed, period during which both an analogue and whose employment is terminated in a way digital signal will be transmitted, and the inconsistent with the provisions of the Stevedor- determination of the length of that simulcast ing Industry Award or other industrial agree- period; ments, or whose employment is terminated as a result of corporate restructuring; iii. the costs to broadcasters and consumers associated with the migration into a digital payments being made under Section 17 of the broadcasting environment; Bill being directly or indirectly a substitute for appropriate redundancy provisions by employers iv. the appropriateness of extending the ban on of stevedoring labour; the allocation of new commercial television licences until 2008; the effect of the levy on Bass Strait trade; v. the provision of additional spectrum to the the imposition of the levy on cargo and vehicles existing free-to-air television broadcasters, not handled by major stevedoring service provid- and the use of this additional spectrum; ers and for official purposes; vi. content requirements, including minimum and the imposition of the levy on stevedoring Australian content requirements and the companies who do not wish to access payments mandating of minimum High Definition made under any scheme related to the Bill Television levels; Possible submissions or evidence from: vii. the particular needs and concerns of region- Stevedoring companies, shipping lines, unions, al television networks; users of port services and other interested parties. viii. the special requirements for the national Committee to which bill is to be referred: broadcasters, that is the ABC and SBS; Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Refer- xi. the technical standards required to ensure ences Committee inter alia that Australia’s broadcasting Possible hearing date: environment complies with world best ASAP (29 May) practice, and that the Australian manufactur- ing industry is well-placed to benefit from Possible reporting date: the opportunities that will emerge from the 25 June 1998 transition to digital equipment and software; (signed) x. the unique consumer and standards issues S. Conroy associated with the migration into a digital Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member radio broadcasting environment, and in particular the determination of a phase-out period; and xi. any other relevant matter, incidental to the Appendix 6 above. Name of bill: 2. That the committee advertise for submissions Television Broadcasting Services (Digital Conver- in the media, and conduct public hearings as sion) Bill 1998 and where it deems appropriate. Datacasting Charge (Imposition) Bill 1998 Possible submissions or evidence from: Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Commercial television operators, pay television sideration: operators, national broadcasters (ABC and SBS), 1. That the provisions of the Television Broad- radio broadcasters, manufacturing industry organi- casting Services (Digital Conversion) Bill sations, consumer groups and any other interested 1998 and Datacasting Charge (Imposition) Bill parties. 2698 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Committee to which bill is to be referred: also hoped that there might be some chance Environment, Recreation, Communications and the of reaching an agreement in the mean time. Arts Legislation Committee. The delay was brought about by our seeking Possible reporting date: that indulgence for Senator Schacht. I apolo- 2 November 1998 gise if some of the minor parties and Inde- pendents were not consulted about that. (signed) S. Conroy Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.54 p.m.)—by leave—I confirm what Senator Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member Evans has said. I convey to Senator Harradine Senator CALVERT—I seek leave to make that attempts were made to contact his office a brief statement in respect of this report. regarding this matter. What I have said today Leave granted. means that it has been put off until tomorrow Senator CALVERT—I have not moved the to allow further negotiations and allow for usual motion for the adoption of the Senator Harradine to be consulted. committee’s report at this stage, but I intend ORDER OF BUSINESS to do so by leave after the tabling and con- sideration of committee reports tomorrow Environment, Recreation, morning. I understand that agreement has Communications and the Arts References been reached on this course of action. The Committee delay results from the inability of the commit- Rural and Regional Affairs and tee to make a recommendation in respect of Transport References Committee the referral of the provisions of the Datacasting Charge (Imposition) Bill 1998 Motion (by Senator Woodley) agreed to: and the Television Broadcasting Services That business of the Senate notices of motion (Digital Conversion) Bill 1998 and that time Nos 5 (relating to the reference of matters to the for further negotiations is required. Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts References Committee) and No. 6 (the refer- Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (3.52 ence of matters to the Rural and Regional and p.m.)—by leave—I do not know with whom Transport References Committee) standing in the these agreements have been made, but they name of Senator Woodley for today, be postponed have not been made with me. It is obviously till the next day of sitting. a matter about which I am very interested. Human Rights When this matter comes on tomorrow I will be seeking to have a decision on the reporting Motion (by Senator Allison) agreed to: date deferred until two sittings days hence. That general business notice of motion No. 1110 standing in the name of Senator Allison for today, Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- relating to the National Human Rights Register, be ia) (3.53 p.m.)—by leave—I apologise to postponed till the next day of sitting. Senator Harradine if he was not consulted about this. It was done at the request of the Carrier Licence Conditions (Optus opposition following the impasse at the Mobile Pty Ltd) Declaration 1997 Selection of Bills Committee yesterday and Carrier Licence Conditions (Optus partly because Senator Schacht, who handles Networks Pty Ltd) Declaration 1997 the matter for the opposition, is a pair and away from parliament today. He wished to be Carrier Licence Conditions (Vodaphone in the chamber for the debate on how we Pty Ltd) Declaration 1997 handle the reference of the bill. He will not Motion (by Senator Bourne, at the request be back in parliament until tomorrow as he is of Senator Lees) agreed to: dealing with a personal matter in Adelaide. That business of the Senate notices of motion We sought deferral for a day so that the Nos 2, 3 and 4 standing in the name of Senator chamber gets a chance to debate it, but while Lees for today, relating to the disallowance of Senator Schacht is here. We initiated the declarations made under the Telecommunications request and the government agreed. It was Act 1997, be postponed till 26 May 1998. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2699

Genetic Engineering (ii) that intellectual disability support services in Tasmania have substantial waiting lists Motion (by Senator Woodley,atthe and are struggling to satisfy demand, and request of Senator Stott Despoja) agreed to: (iii) that current funding is insufficient to That general business notice of motion No. 1107 maintain existing services let alone pro- standing in the name of Senator Stott Despoja for vide for those unmet needs in the com- today, relating to human cloning and genetic munity; and engineering, be postponed till the next day of (b) calls on the Commonwealth Government to sitting. provide more funding of services for the Music Industry intellectually disabled so that such services can be maintained, expanded and improved Motion (by Senator Lundy) agreed to: in Tasmania. That general business notice of motion No. 1099 INDONESIA standing in the name of Senator Lundy for today, relating to copyright, be postponed till 25 May Motion (by Senator Brown) agreed to: 1998. That the Senate— Introduction of Legislation (a) notes the call by United States Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, at the Group of Motion (by Senator Woodley,atthe Seven meeting in London, for Indonesian request of Senator Stott Despoja) agreed to: protesters and authorities to refrain from That general business notice of motion No. 923 violence and for President Suharto to allow standing in the name of Senator Stott Despoja for demonstrations; and today, relating to introduction of the Captioning for (b) calls on President Suharto’s Government the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bill 1998, be post- and protest groups to refrain from violence poned till 25 May 1998. and for the Indonesian Government to ensure full civil rights, including legal rights Commonwealth Electoral Commission for protesters and those arrested as a result Motion (by Senator Chris Evans, at the of the current disturbances in Indonesia. request of Senator Faulkner) agreed to: WATERFRONT That general business notice of motion No. 1089 standing in the name of Senator Faulkner for today, Motion (by Senator Murray) proposed: relating to the definition of associated entities in That the following documents be laid on the the Commonwealth Electoral Act, be postponed till table no later than 3 pm on Monday, 25 May 1998: the next day of sitting. (a) by the Minister representing the Minister for Economics Legislation Committee Transport and Regional Development (Sena- tor Alston): Motion (by Senator Chris Evans, at the (i) copies of all reports or advices commis- request of Senator George Campbell) agreed sioned by the Minister from the Depart- to: ment of Transport and Regional Develop- That general business notice of motion No. 1084 ment, or from outside the department, standing in the name of Senator George Campbell dealing with waterfront reform, or touch- for today, relating to the response of the govern- ing on industrial relations on the water- ment to estimates questions on notice, be postponed front since 1 January 1997 including, but till 28 May 1998. not limited to, all reports prepared by and correspondence from or to Dr John TASMANIA: FUNDING FOR Davies, Dr Stephen Webster, Minter INTELLECTUALLY DISABLED Ellison, Corrs Chambers Westgarth, Mr David Webb and the National Institute of Motion (by Senator Denman) agreed to: Labor Studies, and That the Senate— (ii) copies of all reports, advices, file notes and correspondence involving Dr Webster (a) notes: or any officers of the department with (i) the recent protests held in Tasmania on Fynwest or any directors of Fynwest in 31 March 1998 over the Howard respect of waterfront reform or the train- Government’s failure to meet the needs of ing of an alternative waterfront work- Tasmanians with intellectual disabilities, force; 2700 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

(b) by the Minister representing the Minister for AYES Workplace Relations and Small Business (Senator Alston): Carr, K. Collins, J. M. A. (i) copies of all reports or advice commis- Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. sioned by the Minister from the Depart- Cooney, B. Denman, K. J. ment of Workplace Relations and Small Evans, C. V. * Faulkner, J. P. Business, or from outside the department, Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. dealing with waterfront reform, or touch- Harradine, B. Hogg, J. ing on industrial relations on the water- Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. front including, but not limited to, all Mackay, S. Margetts, D. reports prepared by and correspondence McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. from or to Dr John Davies, Dr Stephen Webster, Minter Ellison, Corrs Chambers Murray, A. Neal, B. J. Westgarth, Mr David Webb and the O’Brien, K. W. K. Quirke, J. A. National Institute of Labor Studies, Ray, R. F. Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. Stott Despoja, N. (ii) copies of all reports, advices, legal West, S. M. Woodley, J. advices, correspondence, meeting notes, briefing notes and file notes touching on NOES any companies, directors or employees of Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. any of the Patricks group of companies Boswell, R. L. D. Brownhill, D. G. C. since 1 January 1997, and Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. (iii) copies of all reports, advices, file notes Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. and correspondence involving Dr Webster Crane, W. Eggleston, A. or any officers of the department with Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. Fynwest or any directors of Fynwest in Ferris, J. Gibson, B. F. respect of waterfront reform or the train- Heffernan, W. Herron, J. ing of an alternative waterfront Hill, R. M. Kemp, R. workforce; and Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. (c) by the Minister representing the Prime Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. Minister (Senator Hill): McGauran, J. J. J. Minchin, N. H. Newman, J. M. Parer, W. R. (i) copies of all reports, advices, file notes and correspondence involving Dr Webster Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. or any officers of the Department of Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. Prime Minister and Cabinet with Fynwest Tierney, J. Troeth, J. or any directors of Fynwest in respect of Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. waterfront reform or the training of an * denotes teller alternative waterfront workforce, and (ii) copies of all reports, advices, legal Question so resolved in the negative. advices, correspondence, meeting notes, briefing notes and file notes touching on WATERFRONT any companies, directors or employees of any of the Patricks group of companies Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (4.11 since 1 January 1997. p.m.)—My motion is similar to the last one but not as expansive. We thought we would Question put: tie them in together. If we have a division, I The Senate divided. [4.04 p.m.] would advise people not to leave so they can (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret come back in. I ask that general business Reid) notice of motion No. 1106 standing in my Ayes ...... 34 name for today relating to the order for Noes ...... 34 production of documents be taken as a formal —— motion. Majority ...... 0 —— The PRESIDENT—Is there any objection AYES to this being taken as a formal motion? Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. Bishop, M. Bourne, V. Senator Harradine—Yes, Madam Presi- Brown, B. Campbell, G. dent. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2701

Suspension of Standing Orders government to produce this focus group research, and to do it urgently. Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (4.12 It is made a little more poignant, however, p.m.)—Pursuant to contingent notice and at when you look at to whom the focus group the request of the Leader of the Opposition in research was given. It was given to a com- the Senate, Senator Faulkner, I move: pany run by Mr Mark Textor. Mr Mark That so much of the standing orders be suspend- Textor of course is the Liberal Party pollster. ed as would prevent Senator Faulkner moving a I would like to know and I would like to be motion relating to the conduct of the business of assured by the production of this material that the Senate, namely a motion to give precedence to he was not doing research that was useful to general business notice of motion No. 1106. the Liberal Party. I suspect not. I suspect that, Briefly, there are two motions today for the once these documents are handed over, if this discovery of certain documents. Mine is a motion is eventually carried and if we go much more specific motion. It only refers to through all of the proceedings and they focus group research undertaken by this actually hand over the focus group research, government. The government has basically there is not going to be any dynamite in it. It given, over time, four reasons for the non- will show, however, that the government used production of documents: firstly, commercial- taxpayers’ money and employed the Liberal in-confidence; secondly, advice to govern- Party pollster to let them know what the ment; thirdly, that there may be some threats community attitudes were on the waterfront to the security of individuals; and I would issues before they in fact launched their anticipate a fourth one that there are currently general strategy. certain court proceedings in the Federal Court. I can remember in government on many May I say, Madam President, that none of occasions the present government members those four objections could possibly apply to demanding the production of opinion polling this far more restricted return to order. research. On many occasions it was handed Firstly, it is certainly not commercial-in- over, on some it was not. Similarly, once we confidence to get focus group research. reverse our roles, we demand the opinion poll Secondly, it is not advice to government, research. Sometimes it is handed over, some- otherwise this government would not have times it is not. But on this occasion I believe produced and forwarded to an estimates it should be because all the objections to the committee and to myself two sets of research production of the rest of the ACIL documents in the last six months—namely, the focus are not relevant to the production of the group research into regional forest agreements specific documents. and, secondly, focus group research into the They will show a government quite happy testing of the Wik ads. On both occasions, the to spend $42,000 of taxpayers’ money em- government, by way of request—one by way ploying a Liberal Party pollster—and, on of request of an estimates committee and one occasions, I might add, a push pollster—to do by way of request of freedom of informa- their research before they in fact developed a tion—has supplied that material. strategy on the waterfront. I would have liked The third ground, which generally and to have included in my motion the report by broadly covers the ACIL documents that Mr Jonathan Gaul, another member of the Minister Alston has referred to on occasion, Liberal Party glitterati, who was also paid to is that he is worried about the threat to securi- provide a communications strategy, but I did ty of people involved in these reports. No not include it here because at least it possibly such prohibition applies simply to getting the would have been barred to me under the results of focus group research. Finally, that question of advice to government. focus group research has absolutely no rel- So, in summary, I believe this motion is evance at the moment, and never will, to urgent. I believe it should be carried. I would conspiracy proceedings in the Federal Court. hope that at some stage we might be able to I think there is an arguable case for the cut to the chase and not go through another 2702 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

25 minutes of debate and, if that is carried, NOES another 25 or 30 minutes of precedence Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. debate and then the substance of the motion, Boswell, R. L. D. Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H.* Campbell, I. G. because I do not think any of that debate will Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. change anyone’s vote on this particular Crane, W. Eggleston, A. matter. I would hope that at some stage we Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. might get an indication from people around Ferris, J. Gibson, B. F. the chamber so we can cut to the chase, have Heffernan, W. Herron, J. a vote and win or lose it. Hill, R. M. Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. Question resolved in the affirmative. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. McGauran, J. J. J. Procedural Motion Minchin, N. H. Newman, J. M. Motion (by Senator Robert Ray, at the Parer, W. R. Payne, M. A. request of Senator Faulkner) agreed to: Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. Tierney, J. Troeth, J. That general business notice of motion No. 1106 Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. may be moved immediately and have precedence over all other business today till determined. PAIRS Bolkus, N. Patterson, K. C. L. Motion Schacht, C. C. Tambling, G. E. J. * denotes teller Motion (by Senator Robert Ray) proposed: That there be laid on the table by the Minister (Senator O’Chee did not vote, to com- representing the Minister for Workplace Relations pensate for the vacancy caused by the resigna- and Small Business (Senator Alston), no later than tion of Senator Bob Collins.) the conclusion of question time on Thursday, 14 Question so resolved in the negative. May 1998, that component of the second ACIL Australia report on waterfront reform that consists WATERFRONT of research conducted by Australasian Research Strategies. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Question put. (4.25 p.m.)—I seek leave to ask that the earlier vote on my motion 1100 be recommit- The Senate divided. [4.22 p.m.] ted because one of the senators was unable to (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret hear the bells. Reid) Leave granted. Ayes ...... 34 Senator MURRAY—I move: Noes ...... 34 —— That the following documents be laid on the Majority ...... 0 table no later than 3 pm on Monday, 25 May 1998: —— (a) by the Minister representing the Minister for AYES Transport and Regional Development (Sena- Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. tor Alston): Bishop, M. Bourne, V. Brown, B. Campbell, G. (i) copies of all reports or advices commis- Carr, K. Collins, J. M. A. sioned by the Minister from the Depart- Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. ment of Transport and Regional Develop- Cooney, B. Crowley, R. A. ment, or from outside the department, Denman, K. J. Evans, C. V.* dealing with waterfront reform, or touch- Faulkner, J. P. Forshaw, M. G. ing on industrial relations on the water- Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. front since 1 January 1997 including, but Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. not limited to, all reports prepared by and Mackay, S. Margetts, D. correspondence from or to Dr John McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. Davies, Dr Stephen Webster, Minter Murray, A. Neal, B. J. Ellison, Corrs Chambers Westgarth, Mr O’Brien, K. W. K. Quirke, J. A. David Webb and the National Institute of Ray, R. F. Reynolds, M. Labor Studies, and Sherry, N. Stott Despoja, N. (ii) copies of all reports, advices, file notes West, S. M. Woodley, J. and correspondence involving Dr Webster Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2703

or any officers of the department with Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) Fynwest or any directors of Fynwest in (4.25 p.m.)—Yes, I do. I seek leave to make respect of waterfront reform or the train- a brief statement. ing of an alternative waterfront workforce; Leave granted. (b) by the Minister representing the Minister for Senator CROWLEY—Senator Campbell, Workplace Relations and Small Business I was very prepared to seek leave to make a (Senator Alston): statement, but I was advised that that was no (i) copies of all reports or advice commis- longer necessary and, in the interests of sioned by the Minister from the Depart- timeliness, I was not going to do it. I very ment of Workplace Relations and Small much want to apologise to the Senate. I was Business, or from outside the department, wearing my beeper. I was actually up meeting dealing with waterfront reform, or touch- students, as I think you can say, Madam ing on industrial relations on the water- front including, but not limited to, all President. The first time I heard the beeper or reports prepared by and correspondence felt it go off, I immediately left to come to from or to Dr John Davies, Dr Stephen the chamber, only to meet a number of Webster, Minter Ellison, Corrs Chambers senators returning from the chamber. I went Westgarth, Mr David Webb and the straight to the whip and apologised, and I National Institute of Labor Studies, apologise again to the Senate for missing the (ii) copies of all reports, advices, legal division. It is not my habit, as all of you advices, correspondence, meeting notes, would know, to miss divisions and I will briefing notes and file notes touching on certainly make sure my beeper is checked. I any companies, directors or employees of am advised that it is not the only beeper that any of the Patricks group of companies has been faulty at this time. Once again, I do since 1 January 1997, and beg the Senate’s pardon and ask your toler- (iii) copies of all reports, advices, file notes ance. and correspondence involving Dr Webster or any officers of the department with Question put: Fynwest or any directors of Fynwest in That the motion (Senator Murray’s) be agreed respect of waterfront reform or the train- to. ing of an alternative waterfront workforce; and The Senate divided. [4.31 p.m.] (c) by the Minister representing the Prime (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret Minister (Senator Hill): Reid) Ayes ...... 35 (i) copies of all reports, advices, file notes and correspondence involving Dr Webster Noes ...... 34 or any officers of the Department of —— Prime Minister and Cabinet with Fynwest Majority ...... 1 or any directors of Fynwest in respect of —— waterfront reform or the training of an AYES alternative waterfront workforce, and Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. Bishop, M. Bourne, V. (ii) copies of all reports, advices, legal Brown, B. Campbell, G. advices, correspondence, meeting notes, Carr, K. Collins, J. M. A. briefing notes and file notes touching on Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. any companies, directors or employees of Cooney, B. Crowley, R. A. any of the Patricks group of companies Denman, K. J. Evans, C. V.* since 1 January 1997. Faulkner, J. P. Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. Harradine, B. Senator Ian Campbell—Madam President, Hogg, J. Lees, M. H. can we be informed who missed the division Lundy, K. Mackay, S. and why? That is the usual courtesy that is Margetts, D. McKiernan, J. P. extended. Murphy, S. M. Murray, A. Neal, B. J. O’Brien, K. W. K. The PRESIDENT—Senator Crowley, do Quirke, J. A. Ray, R. F. you wish to say something? Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. 2704 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

AYES I call upon those senators who approve of the Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. proposed discussion to rise in their places. Woodley, J. NOES More than the number of senators required Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. by the standing orders having risen in their Boswell, R. L. D. Brownhill, D. G. C. places— Calvert, P. H.* Campbell, I. G. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. Crane, W. Eggleston, A. understand that informal arrangements have Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. been made to allocate specific times to each Ferris, J. Gibson, B. F. of the speakers in today’s debate. With the Heffernan, W. Herron, J. concurrence of the Senate, I shall ask the Hill, R. M. Kemp, R. clerks to set the clocks accordingly. Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) MacGibbon, D. J. McGauran, J. J. J. (4.36 p.m.)—I can certainly say, with confi- Minchin, N. H. Newman, J. M. dence, to the Senate that this matter of public Parer, W. R. Payne, M. A. importance is supported not only by members Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. of the opposition but, indeed, by many mem- Tierney, J. Troeth, J. bers and leaders of the coalition parties Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. around this country, because what they PAIRS know—what the premiers and ministers for Bolkus, N. Tambling, G. E. J. health in Victoria, South Australia, Western Schacht, C. C. Patterson, K. C. L. * denotes teller Australia, Tasmania and the Northern Terri- tory know—is that the health system, the (Senator O’Chee did not vote, to com- public hospital system in this country, is fast pensate for the vacancy caused by the resigna- approaching a crisis. tion of Senator Bob Collins.) What the people know is that this government Question so resolved in the affirmative. has inadequately funded the public hospital system during the two years since it came into COMMITTEES office. Treaties Committee The people of Australia will recall that at Extension of Time the last election John Howard promised to maintain Medicare and to look after ordinary Motion (by Senator Calvert, at the request Australians. Yet in two years that promise has of Senator Abetz) agreed to: been broken time and time again. In two That the time for the presentation of the report budgets, this government has almost destroyed of the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties on its the public hospital system in this country. It inquiry into the Multilateral Agreement on Invest- has wrought such havoc on the public hospital ment currently being negotiated by the Australian system that, at the last premiers conference, Government be extended to 1 June 1998. five premiers from the coalition parties— MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE which John Howard and Mr Fischer represent in this parliament—together with the leader of Health the Northern Territory walked out of the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT premiers conference because of the inadequate (Senator Reynolds)—The President has proposals by this government for future health received a letter from Senator Forshaw pro- funding in this country. It was an historic posing that a definite matter of public import- first. ance be submitted to the Senate for discus- These were not Labor Party premiers who sion, namely: did this. Only one of the premiers—Bob The failure of the Howard Government to Carr—is a Labor premier. All of the others adequately fund the public hospital and health care represent the parties that make up the federal system in Australia. government in this country, and they walked Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2705 out. Why did they walk out? They walked out ment penalised the states last year by with- because they knew that this government was holding $81 million, supposedly for alleged not living up to its promise and, furthermore, cost shifting by the states. That has not been was continuing to drive nails into what could proven. Last week it was admitted in evidence well be the coffin of public hospital and to the Senate Standing Committee on Com- public health in this country unless remedial munity Affairs that the Commonwealth action is taken quickly. suspected there was cost shifting by the states. Over the last two years, the government has They do not have any real proof. Neverthe- reduced funding for health care in this coun- less, they decided they would not write out try by $3.6 billion. It reduced funding to the cheque for $81 million to give to the public hospitals by $800 million. Funding states as they originally were committed to reductions were forced upon the states by this do. government’s fetish for reducing the deficit. The record of this government over the past That was the first ingredient of that $3.6 two years has been massive reduction, as I billion. Secondly, it abolished the public have said, of around $3.6 billion in funding health dental program established by the for public hospitals and associated programs previous Labor government—a program which are administered by the states but costing some $400 million. Thirdly, it cut a which—as has been recognised for many total of $1.4 billion out of the pharmaceutical years—require a significant federal contribu- benefits scheme, forcing up the prices of tion. It has been the case that the states—if many necessary drugs and also removing you track back over the last five years or so— many important drugs from the pharmaceutic- have had to increase their spending on health al benefits scheme. by around 22 per cent. A further $1 billion funding for Medicare The federal government increase has only was cut as a result of the government’s been of the order of 16 per cent. The signifi- refusal to adjust the Medicare rebate. That has cant difference relates to the last two years now been belatedly recognised in last night’s under the coalition government when they budget but, nevertheless, it has been criticised have slashed their proportion of health fund- by the AMA as a drop in the bucket com- ing that was otherwise required. I notice the pared to what is required for public health minister is in the chamber. He will probably funding in this country at the moment. On top again try to distort the picture of what the of those $3.6 billion worth of cuts in federal government’s offer is, as he did in question government funding to the states for public time. health, and particularly for the public hospi- The government claim that they are increas- tals system, we have also seen a continuation ing the funding for health by $2.9 billion. I in the decline of health insurance even though am not allowed to use the term ‘lie’ because the government put $1.7 billion into trying to it is unparliamentary; but Huckleberry Finn prop the system up. used to say, about his sometime colleague There has been further pressure on the Tom Sawyer, that he ‘stretched the public hospitals systems in the states as a imagination’, sometimes a bit, sometimes a result of changes to nursing homes. As a lot—and then there were what he called result of this government’s insane desire to ‘whoppers’. And this is one of the whoppers force the elderly to sell their homes so as to of all time—this claim by the government that pay huge accommodation bonds to get into they are increasing funding by $2.9 billion or nursing homes, or to pay huge increases in 15 per cent. charges for nursing homes, greater pressure The real increase in this budget—which has has been applied to the public hospital system been on the table for the states for the last six as people are staying in public hospitals when months but was rejected by the states—is of they should be in other forms of aged care, the order of 1.1 per cent. That was made clear such as nursing homes. This is a form of cost in evidence to the Senate committee last shifting back to the states. Yet this govern- week. For instance, $300 million of this $2.9 2706 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 billion results from a statistical recalculation The document read as follows— of the forward estimates—due to changes in Rob Knowles the forecast for the wage cost index. Of this Health Minister $2.9 billion, $479 million is for mental and Victoria palliative care programs—but that is really Dr Andrew Refshauge just a continuation of existing programs; it is Health Minister not new money. It is not a real increase; it is NSW a carrying-on of previous programs. An Peter McKay Health Minister amount of $682 million is said to be for Tasmania quality and access programs—but there is no Dean Brown indication of how those funds will be distri- Human Services Minister buted, they are at the discretion of the South Australia Commonwealth and there is no guarantee that Kevin Prince all states and territories will receive a share. Health Minister Western Australia More importantly, none of these funds are Denis Burke available to meet ongoing service delivery Minister for Health, Family and Children’s Services costs. They are one-off payments to the states Northern Territory for particular ‘quality and access’ programs. Tuesday 12 May 1998 Further, there is $500 million of this $2.9 FEDERAL BUDGET IGNORES THE PLIGHT OF billion which is one-off project funding for THE NATIONAL HOSPITAL SYSTEM what is called ‘systems restructuring in ac- State and Territory Health Ministers today express- cordance with the Commonwealth priorities’. ed amazement that the federal budget does not Again, this is not for the basic services of contain one extra dollar for the nation’s hospitals, treating public patients in public hospitals. despite being billed by Federal Treasurer Peter Costello as a ‘big winner’ for health. We have ended up with a position whereby ‘This budget will barely help us keep up with the around 1.4 million Australians will be unfund- growing demand for heart surgery alone,’ the ed for public hospital treatment over the Ministers said. course of the next five years. They are not The States have conservative figures showing that just my words. If you do not necessarily the current Medicare offer will leave more than believe me then listen to what your own five 1.43 million patients unfunded over five years, and state ministers are saying, because last night this budget will be absolutely no comfort for them they put out a press release. The ministers— as they face longer waits for treatment. Dean Brown, Liberal from South Australia; ‘We welcome the initiative to give GPs additional funding, but this is only half the equation. We need Kevin Prince, Liberal from Western Australia; immediate and significant financial recognition of Robert Knowles, health minister, Liberal from the strain faced by our nation’s hospitals due to Victoria; Peter McKay, Liberal from Tasman- declining private health insurance, an ageing ia; Dr Andrew Refshauge from New South population and high-cost technology.’ Wales—he’s Labor; and Denis Burke, Coun- The ministers disputed again the Federal try Liberal Party, from the Northern Terri- Government’s claim that the new Medicare offer tory,—expressed amazement that the federal contains $2.9 billion of new funding. budget does not contain one extra dollar for ‘As a group, we have sat in meetings with Minister the nation’s hospitals, despite being billed by Wooldridge where he denied that figure, and federal Treasurer Peter Costello as a ‘big certainly our combined top bureaucrats cannot find that money in the bottom line.’ winner for health’. The press release says: ‘The reality is that there is only $69 million of new "This budget will barely help us keep up with the money over five years—not enough to run the growing demand for heart surgery alone," the nation’s hospitals for a day, let alone the whole Ministers said. term of the Medicare system.’ I have not got time to read this press release, ‘The truth is that the Federal Government made an Madam Acting Deputy President, but I seek explicit promise at the last election to maintain leave to have it incorporated in Hansard. Medicare as an accessible, quality service for Australians, and now they must put adequate Leave granted. money into the system to keep that promise.’ Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2707

The Health Ministers have been fighting for hospitals and 50 per cent to private hospitals. increased funding for hospitals for more than six Sixty per cent of people were actually private- months now, in the negotiations of the new ly insured. The first thing they did when they Medicare agreement. were in government was to pull the rug out ‘Yet all we have received in return is a budget which totally ignores conditions in our hospitals, from under private health insurance. It is no and insults that we have ripped State funding from wonder, because I have got lovely quotes here our hospitals. There is not one jurisdiction that is from over the last 13 years. You will have to not paying significantly more for its hospitals now forgive me, Madam Acting Deputy President, than it was five years ago.’ but this is Paul Keating on 11 March 1993: ‘The Federal Government seems to think the That is where Medicare is fair as it pushes out the Medicare negotiations are just a political game, in private doctors and private insurance—they will rip which they can push and pull figures at will.’ the sick apart. Media Enquiries That was their Prime Minister, and he pulled Victoria: Serena Williams on 0412 683 876 the rug out from private health insurance. It Tasmania: Ian Colvin on 0417 576 378 is no wonder that private health insurance NSW: Julian Brophy on 0419 013 645 went down the tube. NT: Loralei Fong Lim on 0419 85 2421 But you can go later than that. Carmen WA: Mark Thompson on 015 655 252 (pager 9482 Lawrence in parliament on 30 August 1994 4648) said: SA: Peter Green on 0419 814 820 We are going to make sure that those premiums Senator FORSHAW—They conclude by come down, that people get value for money and saying: that it will not be at the expense of the public The Health Ministers have been fighting for health system. increased funding for hospitals for more than six That was the Labor Party’s own health months now . . . Yet all we have received in return minister. But there is more. On 15 April is a budget which totally ignores conditions in our hospitals and insults that we have ripped State 1994: funding from our hospitals— The government has an obligation to provide quality health care for every citizen. If people want (Time expired) more than that, in the form of private rooms or The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT choice of specialist or access to cosmetic surgery (Senator Reynolds)—Before calling Senator or whatever it is, they pay for it. Herron, I would like to acknowledge the So they pulled the rug out from under the presence in the public gallery of former private hospital system and, of course, people Senator Shirley Walters—welcome back. are forced into the public hospital system. Honourable senators—Hear, hear! Who provides the health system in the Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister states? The states do. The states are respon- for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander sible for health care within the public hospital Affairs) (4.49 p.m.)—I take a great deal of system. They are being overwhelmed by the pleasure in responding to Senator Forshaw’s number of people who are accessing it, not motion. I am delighted that Senator Shirley only because of growth of population but also Walters and Dr David Walters are in the because of the ageing population. The de- public gallery, because Senator Walters would mands of the ageing population are putting recognise the blatant hypocrisy of what we enormous difficulties onto the public hospital have just heard from the opposition. They systems of this country. have got form—they were 13 years in govern- It did not happen in the last two years, ment. I have been here for eight years and for Senator Forshaw; it had been going on for 13 six of those years I tried to tell them what years under your government and we are was wrong with the public hospital system. trying to clean up the mess. We inherited a Do you think they took any notice? Not at all. $10.3 billion deficit, as you know, and we It is very simple: when they came into have had to cope with bringing the budget government 13 years ago there was a bal- into surplus and, at the same time, trying to ance—50 per cent of people went to public address the problems in the public hospital 2708 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 system. We have pumped money into private offer. The ACT government were first cab off health insurance to try to restore that balance. the rank and have accepted it already. So two I can forecast confidently, as I have done of them have already accepted it. The reality before, that it will plateau. It has still been is that even if they do not accept it we have falling, but it plateaued in the December guaranteed that they will get the funding that quarter. There has been a slight rise in the we have offered to them. If they do not sign March quarter, but I expect that it will now up, as you know, they will not get the addi- plateau because it has plateaued in my own tional funding which has been offered to them state of Queensland for the last 13 years to help with waiting lists— because we have had a different system there. Senator Forshaw—It is a bribe. Senator Forshaw has come in with crocodile Senator HERRON—They will still get the tears and said that this government is not funding. Does Senator Forshaw really think doing enough for the public hospital system, that the states are going to say, ‘We don’t while disbelieving the evidence of his own want any more money’? Senator Forshaw, eyes, because that is all you can do in relation they have done it forever. They have always to the figures in the budget. They are true, done that. Of course, they always say that and the offer to the states has been increased they could have better health care provision by 15 per cent over five years. The figures from the public hospital system. They are are in the budget papers. I invite Senator persisting in their claim that they need an Forshaw to have a look at them. If he disbe- additional $1.1 billion a year. That means an lieves the evidence of his own eyes, he is just increase in Commonwealth funding of 20 per caught up in the hypocrisy that he produced cent. Have you ever heard of an ambit claim, for us just now. The Commonwealth’s offer Senator Forshaw? I am sure he has, Madam is a very generous one. Acting Deputy President, as he comes from Senator Forshaw—Your figures are shon- the union movement. They are ambit claims. ky. Of course we recognise that. That is what it Senator HERRON—It provides an addi- is all about. In view of the form of the Labor tional $2.9 billion for hospital funding over Party over a 13-year period, what Senator the next five years, with real growth over the Forshaw is saying is the essence of hypocrisy. five years of 14.9 per cent. It is in the budget Senator Forshaw suggested that they are figures. Senator Forshaw ignores them. dodgy figures. I point out that the states’ own Senator Forshaw—The states reckon the submission to the Senate inquiry into the figures are crook. agreement legislation included a graph show- ing data from a range of sources on relative Senator HERRON—The states are persist- Commonwealth and state spending over the ing in their claims. I have the Crowley file life of the present agreements. I am happy to here. Would you like the Crowley file? table that. It gives the lie to what he just said. Senator Forshaw—I have the Dean Brown This graph shows up the hypocrisy of the so- file, I have the Peter McKay file—these are called dodgy figures, because the states’ own state health ministers. graph confirms the Commonwealth figures. It Senator HERRON—I will drag out the clearly demonstrates that the states reduced Crowley file for you soon. I have not got it, their funding in 1993-94 and in 1994-95 because I do not like quoting people who are while Commonwealth funding increased still here, but the fact is that she consistently sharply. said that the states are always bleeding for Senator Forshaw—I acknowledge that. more funds because it is their responsibility. Senator HERRON—Senator Forshaw says Senator Forshaw’s argument falls down graciously that they acknowledge that. But I because the Queensland government has am pointing out that he does not believe accepted the Medicare agreement. That blows them. He does not believe the states’ own him out of the water. There is a state that has graph, because that was the essence of his accepted the Commonwealth government’s argument before. The graph clearly demon- Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2709 strates the difference between the Com- the agreement had nothing to do with us over monwealth’s record of continuously increas- the last two years, because it is the Labor ing spending and the states’ record of ripping Party’s five-year agreement which is being money out of health. Senator Forshaw’s renegotiated now—and Senator Forshaw suggestion that the Commonwealth had should be aware that the Medicare agreements dropped its plan for a one per cent annual cut last for five years. We are offering a 15 per or efficiency dividend on palliative care and cent increase. So he uses this motion to say mental health funding is completely untrue. that they are dodgy figures. I am pointing out There never was such a plan. that there are no dodgy figures. On the states’ Senator Forshaw—I raise a point of order, own admission they cut their spending in the Madam Acting Deputy President. I know that past. Now they are trying to make up the this might be ruled as a debating point, but I difference by getting it from the Common- never said a word about a one per cent effi- wealth. There is nothing new. ciency dividend in the entire speech. Senator So I come back to the original point that it Herron is actually getting today confused with was the Labor Party—for example, by taking the Hansard from last week’s hearing. out the bed day subsidy—that produced the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT major crisis in private hospital funding. And (Senator Reynolds)—There is no point of with the ageing population, the increase in order. It is a debating point. technology, the increasing cost of running a Senator HERRON—Madam Acting Depu- public hospital system, there is no magic ty President, he said that within the Hansard. wand. It will take us years to fix the system, I accept his statement on that. I did not but we are taking the right steps. We are know— subsidising private health insurance, so if we Senator Forshaw—I didn’t say anything can get back to that magic figure of 50 per about it today at all—not a word. cent of people going to private hospitals—it is only 20 per cent now and the rest are Senator HERRON—I accept that. I was dependent on the public hospital system— not here at the beginning of Senator then we will have a system that will work in Forshaw’s speech, and I apologise for— this country. People accept that Medicare is Senator Forshaw—You are thinking of last essential. We believe it is too. We believe week’s Hansard from a different hearing, you that people have a right to access Medicare, goat. but to try to lump onto the present govern- Senator HERRON—Madam Acting Depu- ment the problems of the public hospital ty President, I ask him to withdraw that . system is just blatant hypocrisy, and it is time that Senator Forshaw took his medicine, The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— realised that his own government produced Senator, would you please withdraw that. this effect and withdrew his motion. (Time Senator Forshaw—I withdraw the word expired) ‘goat’. Senator HERRON—Senator Forshaw has Senator LEES (South Australia—Leader of acknowledged that in another hearing he the Australian Democrats) (4.59 p.m.)—It was made that assertion. most interesting to listen to the minister. I will not accuse him of using rubbery figures, Senator Forshaw—I think you had better but I will accuse him of using selective check the record completely, Senator Herron, figures because he likes to completely ignore before you start making accusations. the cuts that were made to health over the Senator HERRON—I can understand past two years; indeed, these cuts are forecast Senator Forshaw getting a bit touchy, because to go through for five years. As he seems to after all he has not got a feather to fly with. have misplaced them, I would like to read After 13 years of the Labor Party putting the them onto the record. Public hospitals were public hospital system into the state that it is cut by this government in 1997-98 by $76.8 now in, he is making these assertions when million; in 1998-99, there will be $78.9 2710 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 million in cuts to the public hospitals; for It is suspected—we have not seen the final 1999-2000, the projected cuts are $82.6; the figures—that the Women and Children’s next year, $85.5; and in 2001-2002, $88.5 Hospital in Adelaide will be slightly over its million. $113 million budget because of extra demand. Funding has been cut by $20 million in the Then you have to look at all the other cuts past five years. For the Royal Adelaide to health—dental services, $112.8 million this Hospital, staff have been cut from 3½ thou- year going on through to $120.6 million by sand to 2½ thousand over the last 10 years the year 2001-2002. The actual cuts to due to the cutbacks. While staff are said to be Medicare—that includes the cuts to GPs—are just coping they would certainly be able to do $375.9 million in 1997-98; in 1998-99, more if funding were available. With Whyalla $247.9 million; 1999-2000, $276 million and Hospital and Health Service, the budget has so it goes on up to $321.2 million. In PBS blown out by $1.3 million. Staff, however, are and other cuts, $136.0 million last year and already down from 430 five years ago to 287 $247.9 million this year. now. And so it goes on. It does not stop there, because they also cut I visit hospitals in rural South Australia and the grants to the states. If you look at what in rural Victoria and talk to the CEOs and percentage of their total grants the states every single one of them is running a hospital spend on health, you can get a calculation that on the limit—on the absolute knife edge. for 1997-98 the cut to health was $213 They are in a situation where there is abso- million and $100 million this year. That gives lutely nothing to spare and nothing to cut. us a figure of approximately $1 billion this They have contracted out everything they can year, and it grows, so that we have a total of possibly contract out, in many cases finding $6 billion in cuts to health. they have saved very little money at all. All Then we can talk about the small increase the contracting out has done is further demor- we got this year, but effectively what that alise an already pressured staff. means is that the government is putting back So we come back to the basic conclusions about $345 million. In other words, they have that the health ministers have come to, that cut $1 billion and they have put back about they put very eloquently before the Senate 34c in the dollar. And the minister comes into committee last week. It is the Commonwealth this place and says, ‘We should be happy which holds the purse strings; it is the states with that; we should be jumping up and down that have to run the hospital system; and the like some of the newspaper headlines are,’ states have no other major revenue raising suggesting that the health budget is wonder- source. They are already stretching gambling ful. I suggest that the minister and some of to the limit, which this government has now those journalists go and visit hospitals as I admitted is a problem and is going to look have been doing over the last few weeks. into. There is no other place for the money I want to make some comments—and this that is needed to run our hospitals to come has been reported in the Advertiser—as to the from but from the Commonwealth govern- state of some of the hospitals in South Aus- ment. tralia. Flinders Medical Centre is facing a $2 What the Democrats asked for in this million budget blow-out after patient admis- budget, as we had a $3 billion deficit that sions went up by 2,000 on their average really was not there—the black hole was a lot admissions. The only thing I think I can agree smaller than this government had led us to with Senator Herron on is that the budget cuts believe; in other words, $3 billion worth of in health began under the Labor government. cuts should never have been made—was that As Senator Herron said, it is the current the first port of call was to put the $1 billion Medicare agreement that has partly got us to back into health. That was the absolute this crisis. But, as a result of previous cuts, minimum that the health ministers themselves staff numbers at Flinders have been cut by asked for. In other words, basically to help 250, or 10 per cent, since 1994-95. them fund their hospitals and to fund all those Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2711 other health services that will help keep so on do not continually end up at the most people out of hospital. If you put pressure on expensive pointy end of medicine—that is, in dental services; if you put pressure on com- hospitals rather than in prevention. munity health services; if you put pressure on It is quite clear that Dr Wooldridge’s doctors so they stop bulk-billing; where do miserly offer under the Australian health care people end up? They end up in accident and agreement has been rejected by the majority emergency at all hours of the night. of the states. The states have been forced to So you find, as I found when my youngest accept more responsibility for health pro- daughter had to go into Accident and Emer- grams, without adequate financial compen- gency in a large Sydney hospital, a wait of sation. The inadequacy of funding is a testi- hours. As she needed acute care, she was able mony to this government’s attitude towards its to jump the queue but the queue was four or role in providing essential services to improve five hours long. She then needed a bed, only the quality of life of all Australians. to find that there weren’t any. So, after being We know that the issue of competition resuscitated, she was left lying in Accident policy comes into this as well. We have a and Emergency for many, many hours. This situation where there is no specific exemption is the story no matter which public hospital for health under competition policy on a you visit. national basis; that is, in the end, where they I suggest that Senator Herron in this place can be, all health services will be outsourced. and the minister in the other place spend Under competition policy, so much will have some time visiting a couple of dozen public to be written into the contracts that, before we hospitals and talking to staff, talking to nurses know it, not just the current staffing that is in particular, talking to the CEOs, having a being outsourced—the catering and all those chat to the interns and the registrars and things which make it more and more difficult talking to the specialists to get a proper for patients and patient outcomes—but health picture of what is actually happening. If they outcomes in many more ways as well will be do not believe they should fund it, then they subject to the bottom line dollar, which we all must suggest to the states where the states are know is not the way we would choose for going to get the money from to fund our best patient outcomes. public hospital system. As any state will tell The benchmarks of efficiency and produc- you—and I must suggest here that probably tivity do not factor into quality of patient care Tasmania is in a slightly worse position than as hospitals are already understaffed and even South Australia—they are running to the increasingly subject to financial strain. It limit and it cannot go on. undermines and lessens our grip and focus on Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) quality of health. So the issues are not just (5.06 p.m.)—The Greens (WA) agree that the about funding, they are about policies which funding of hospitals is hopelessly inadequate, impact on the proper decision making of but I also agree with Senator Lees that it is hospitals. not only the funding of hospitals, but also the In the absence of guarantees or details of priorities in relation to the funding of health exemptions, we also have to look at the care that are hopelessly inadequate. You possible impact on health funding of the cannot continue to leave provision of health Multilateral Agreement on Investment. The to the pointy end—to the emergency end—of future adequacy of health funding must be medicine and assume that you will be able to seen in terms of potential international obliga- cope with inadequate levels of funding. tions under the Multilateral Agreement on The longer term prospects of health must Investment. International investors may be include preventative health. The longer term able to require access to health service provi- concept of health must include adequate sion and government funding. (Time expired) funding of community-based health services Senator PATTERSON (Victoria) (5.09 so that those people who are prospective p.m.)—I think the people on the other side— victims of strokes, heart problems, asthma and the members of the Labor Party, and also 2712 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Senator Margetts and Senator Lees—are access to services such as dental, physiother- suffering from retrospective hindsight blind- apy, podiatry, chiropractic, et cetera. ness. This is obvious if you look at the Labor Not only does the gold card give those Party’s record on health. The Minister for veterans access to private hospitals, but it also Health and Family Services (Dr Wooldridge) takes many of those veterans out of the public very adequately went through Labor’s record health system and thus opens up more beds in the House in March last year. and more opportunities for people who are not When the Medicare agreements were being veterans—so it has a double effect. There is set up last time there was an argy-bargy. The $750 million for that alone over the next five then Labor minister for health was having an years. These amounts are additional to the argument with what were then mostly Labor forward estimates based on the costs of states about the fact there was not enough existing agreements. In total, the Common- funding. It went on and on and they were not wealth will be funding the states with $30.2 going to sign. This happens every time we billion over the next five years to assist them have Medicare agreements: the states and the in providing health services. Commonwealth pull to and fro about funding. As well as increasing base funding, the Commonwealth offer includes a continuation We had a system of public hospitals under of the mental health and palliative care Labor whereby the Commonwealth had put in programs which were due to end in 1997-98; more money in the last Medicare agreement funding for improving the quality of services; but had no capacity whatsoever to have and $500 million for a national development control over the states just taking the money fund to support projects and programs to out. The government knew this. When the reform the acute health system. So there is Minister for Health and Family Services was $500 million for a national development fund speaking in the House last year, he said: to support projects and programs to reform The Leader of the Opposition when Minister for the acute health system. In addition to the Finance walked around the country, wailed and funding set out in the budget, the Common- bleated and said how awful it was, but what have wealth proposal would provide states with an they done? Nothing. additional $83 million to compensate for each The Labor government’s agreement with the percentage point drop in the private health states was such that it had very little control insurance participation rate should that occur. over it. In the budget last night, the When Labor was in government the number government’s commitment is to pay in full the of doctors in rural areas declined. Labor offer made to the states on the Australian bleated about it, but what did it do? Nothing. health care agreements at the 20 March Our minister for health has put in place Premiers Conference, and it includes a total training programs and incentives to get young of almost $2.2 billion additional funding over doctors to think about going into rural areas. the next five years. He has brought in a lot of innovation to encourage medical practitioners to move into The Commonwealth has also decided to rural areas. But under Labor there was no meet the full costs of public hospital services particular focus, no training focus, to meet the provided to entitled veterans, giving the states needs of people in rural areas. Under Labor, access to an additional $750 million over the private health insurance was bleeding without next five years—that is, the gold card for stopping. During the election campaign in eligible veterans who have served in the 1993, then Labor minister Graham Richardson Australian armed forces, who are over 70 said: years, and who have faced hostile forces. They are entitled to a gold card which, for Unfortunately, again, Labor aren’t recognising the big problem. It is still a huge problem, by the way, those veterans who may be listening, is not that people are deserting private health insurance only for their hospital costs but means that at the rate they are, a much faster rate than anyone they do not have to pay the Medicare levy if in the Government’s been predicting and it just they are currently paying it. It also gives them goes on and on. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2713

Did they do anything about it? Did they try has had no effect until they do something to encourage people to go into private health about it and have some sort of policy. The insurance? No. Carmen Lawrence, the then opposition have no policies at all—it is a minister for health, and the Prime Minister policy free zone opposite—and, when they do did not have private health insurance. They have a policy, they have a policy for 24 hours did not set an example, nor would they agree and then change their minds. to a surcharge for high income earners. After The major focus of this year’s budget in the budget in 1996, Graham Richardson said: health has been on improving access to health When I left— services for rural and regional Australia, the Labor Party— including the establishment of a rural multi- as the Labor Party had always been a bit biased purpose health and family services network, against private health insurance... costing $24 million over four years; and on more support for older people to stay in their That really sums up everything. He goes on homes through the ‘staying at home’ initia- to say: tive, costing $269 million over four years. One idea I had which had no chance of ever That is important for people in small rural being accepted by my caucus or cabinet colleagues areas where it is not necessarily viable to was to charge an increased Medicare levy for high- income earners who refused to take out private have an aged care facility or where people— insurance. I was never comfortable with the thought or families—choose to stay at home but need of wealthy people elbowing battlers out of queues assistance. in public hospitals. We have announced essential investment in Senator Crowley, when she was representing preventive health measures including a focus the minister for health in this chamber, used on environmental health, injury prevention, to say, ‘Oh, no, it is only young people that cancer control, anti-smoking initiatives, men’s are leaving private health insurance. They health and funding for special vaccination don’t actually add to the hospital queues.’ But programs for elderly Australians. There is a then we had Graham Richardson saying, ‘Yes, saving because every person over 65 will be they did.’ given the opportunity to have a flu vaccina- So Labor did nothing about that. We have tion, as was recommended by the National brought in incentives for people on low Health and Medical Research Council and incomes to take out private health insurance— taken up by the minister. a carrot—and we have a stick for those on The budget also contains enhancement of high incomes who fail to take out private health infrastructure in the indigenous com- health insurance. munities. What happened when Senator Senator Quirke—How well is it working? Graham Richardson went out to indigenous communities and tried to turn the tap on? Senator PATTERSON—The question is: ‘Oh dear,’ he said, ‘This is terrible.’ And is it working? When the Labor Party was in what happened? Nothing. What have we seen government, there was a haemorrhaging out Senator Herron do? We have seen the army of private health insurance to the point where brought in to establish some of that infrastruc- it was not going to be viable. We have ture, and we have seen 35 new Aboriginal stemmed that haemorrhaging. Just wait until health services develop. (Time expired) after the taxation returns go in and people on high incomes realise that they will have to Senator HOGG (Queensland) (5.18 pay an increased Medicare levy, because you p.m.)—I rise to speak on this matter of public will find that some of them will revert to importance to put aside what the government taking out private health insurance. is saying, because this is not about ambit claims argy-bargy. One only has to look at Opposition senators interjecting— the submission that was made by the state and Senator PATTERSON—I want to hear territory governments—that is, the states from Labor what they are going to do about except Queensland and the territories except it. They can bleat all they like about it, but it the ACT—to the recent Senate Community 2714 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Affairs Legislation Committee hearing on the system. Clearly, from what they were saying issue of health care agreements. In the exec- in their submission to the Senate legislation utive summary of the submission put forward committee, there are insufficient funds. But by the states—they are holding out against the there are two noticeable absentees from that federal government because of the general particular statement that was made on behalf meanness of the federal government—they of the states and the territories—the ACT say this: government and the state government in Basically, there are two broad areas of funda- Queensland. One would have to ask: why are mental concern. Firstly, the Commonwealth’s they absent? They are absent for the same funding offer falls well below that considered reason in both instances—for purely venal necessary to cover required service levels. political reasons. The ACT capitulated early So that is the first thing that concerns the because it suited their electoral purposes, and states that are holding out against the federal then the Queensland government, facing an government and their miserable approach— election just around the corner, felt it was the offer does not cover required service very comfortable to capitulate as well. levels. They go on: Let us look at the history of what unfolded Secondly, the legislation and draft agreements do which will show how the other states and not address the structural reforms required for the territory governments are not being unreason- health system. able. Let us just look at the Queensland Then we get to the question of: what is really attitude tracking back through a few clippings. an issue here? The states and Northern In the Courier-Mail on 12 March, an article Territory are seeking an additional $1.1 headed ‘State threat to renege on federal billion per year to the base; whereas the funding deal’ states: Commonwealth responded with an extra $2.9 The Borbidge Government will argue that this billion over the five years of the new agree- final instalment in a three-year plan to help finan- ment. The difference between that is not an cial recovery is not necessary because the Howard ambit claim. If you have been in negotiations Government’s Budget is probably now in surplus. and if you know the difference, it is certainly It goes on to say: not about argy-bargy and it is certainly not His defiant approach— about ambit claims—it is a substantial differ- that being the Premier of Queensland— ence indeed. This is highlighted further in is the latest shot in the lead-up to next week’s their submission, when they say: Premiers’ Conference, which is likely to be a Based on these figures, and given the complexi- heated affair because of ill-feeling over health ties of health funding, a very conservative estimate funding. is that the Commonwealth’s offer is more in the We have the build-up. Whilst one might say vicinity of an additional $69 million over five years on a national basis. there is a certain amount of argy-bargy there, it is more than just staking an ambit claim. So it is not what the coalition is painting it to We then go on to an article in the Financial be at all: it is not a matter of argy-bargy and Review of 20 March which states: it is not a matter of ambit. They go on: Queensland Premier Mr Rob Borbidge was This breakdown of the Commonwealth’s funding scathing about the health funding offer saying it offer demonstrates the magnitude of the funding was even less than an offer made late last year, shortfall when compared to the States’ and North- which he said was "a dud". ern Territory’s claim for an additional $1.1 billion in the base. Similarly, the Commonwealth’s claim The article goes on to say: of a real 15.4% increase over five years is signifi- The most recent offer was the "son of a dud", he cantly overstated, with the real amount being about said. Mr Howard yesterday described Mr 1.1%. Borbidge’s comments as "unhelpful". They are the words of the state governments We went from ‘a dud’ to the ‘son of a dud’. and the Northern Territory government who What they ultimately accepted is indescribable are still at odds with the Commonwealth in normal terms in this parliament. Then we government over the funding of the health move on to 26 March. What do we find on Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2715 that date? We find the headline ‘States back ance and therefore an increase in the utilisa- call for health fund inquiry’. Mr Borbidge is tion of public hospitals. Yet they have the gall seen in a bit of a conciliatory light there. The to come into this chamber day after day article stated: grizzling about health care funding. They A spokesman for the Queensland Premier should be hanging their heads in shame. They indicated that Mr Borbidge saw merit in a funding are the ones who created the problem. The review. difference is that the coalition government is It was not capitulation at that stage; it was the one that is taking the responsibility to merit in a funding review that was ultimately solve the problem created by them. undertaken. Prior to the Labor Party devastating the Then we turn to the Sydney Morning Her- health system, one who was privately insured ald. Mr Kennett was reported as speaking was able to go into hospital and pay absolute- strongly against the federal government. His ly nothing because the health fund picked up support was echoed by the Queensland the tab. Equally, if you were not privately Minister for Health, Mr Mike Horan. It is insured you were able to walk into a public report in the Sydney Morning Herald of 27 hospital and get the treatment that you needed April that Queensland had capitulated. We without waiting and without charge. Who found that Queensland had capitulated be- picked up the tab for that? The taxpayer. cause there was an election around the corner. What the Labor did was wreck a perfectly The government can claim no victories good system where those who were in genu- here. What they have are two very peripheral ine need were looked after and those who victories at best—that is, signing up the ACT could pay for their own private health insur- government who faced an election and sign- ance did so. Yet they are the ones complain- ing up the Queensland government who are ing about the situation today. similarly facing an election. This is not about We have the responsibility to try to turn redressing the health situation. In Queensland this around. That is no mean feat. The fact alone the extra minimal funding will do remains that the Commonwealth is trying to nothing to put a dent in the fact that 12,000 do this in consultation with the states. Coming Queenslanders are waiting longer than is from Western Australia, I am the first to medically acceptable for elective surgery. admit that the Commonwealth is not provid- Nothing that came down in the budget last ing everything that the states want. But I night will do anything to redress that situation think there are many people who are equally either. prepared to admit that the Commonwealth is Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia) trying to make ends meet. The budget that we (5.25 p.m.)—I find this debate put forward by saw presented last night is a responsible the Labor Party yet again to be absolutely and budget. That comes in on top of not only the utterly amazing. The Labor Party ran a failed devastation that the Labor Party left us with health system. Instead of coming in here and in terms of health funding but also the $10 trumpeting what they now think should and billion deficit they left for every man, woman should not be done they should in fact be and child in Australia. We have turned that hanging their heads in shame for what they around in two short years and those in the did to the health system over 13 years in Labor Party still come in here and complain. government. The Commonwealth’s proposals for health When the Labor Party came into office in care funding have tried to accommodate the December 1983 some 64 per cent of Austral- main principles and directions that were ians were privately insured. When they left agreed to by the health ministers in Cairns in office there were 34 per cent of Australians May 1997. They may not meet every single privately insured. That is nothing short of solitary red cent that the states want. I do not disgraceful. During that time, the Labor Party blame the state for seeking more. The states government did not compensate the states one were duded very seriously by the previous cent for the reduction in private health insur- Labor government. They were unfunded in 2716 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 the previous five-year Medicare agreement. about either that they did not include funding Understandably now they are turning around in the forward estimates for the 1998-99 years and saying that they want more money. as part of the 1995-96 budget. That budget The fact remains that those principles that was brought down by the then Treasurer and were laid down at the health ministers meet- the then Minister for Finance, Mr Beazley. ing in Cairns in May last year have been Senator GIBBS (Queensland) (5.32 p.m.)— listened to and compromises have been There is one clear thing about last night’s reached with the Commonwealth. The first budget—that is, it will not create one addi- principle was that funding be based more tional hospital bed or employ one extra nurse clearly on identified outputs and outcomes, as a result of its announcements. As the including quality, rather than inputs. The health ministers in all states, except Queens- Commonwealth’s proposal very much reflects land and the Northern Territory, said last those sentiments. night in their response to the budget, it did The second principle was that information not contain one extra dollar for the nation’s across the health system be based on patients hospitals. They have identified, like most rather than providers both for improved policy objective observers, that the $2.5 billion of analysis and management and for individual new funding this government claims it is case planning. This is reflected in the putting into the public health system over the Commonwealth’s proposal both for reporting next five years is a sham. and for a national development fund to assist The budget contains a raft of previously investment in the information systems. Sepa- committed projects and funding and in reality rately, the Commonwealth changes to the only adds up to $69 million of new funding Health Insurance Commission offer the over five years or only a 1.1 per cent in- opportunity for the states to consider linkages crease. As the ministers noted, it is not en- with that infrastructure to support improved ough money to run the nation’s hospitals for care and policy analysis. a day, let alone the whole term of the The third principle was an improved capaci- Medicare agreement. In their press conference ty to manage the health system as a whole, they said, ‘This budget will barely help us including in particular across the boundaries keep up with the growing demand for heart between primary and acute care. The surgery alone.’ This, I might add, came from Commonwealth proposal addresses those in a a majority of conservative premiers. number of different ways. The fourth princi- Regrettably, my home state of Queensland ple of investment options to facilitate structur- has sold out to the public health interests of al change to reduce cost pressures on acute its citizens and signed a new Medicare agree- care and allow better step down care and day ment several weeks ago in order to finalise surgery is reflected in particular in the pro- the matter before the upcoming Queensland posed national development fund. election. In effect, the Borbidge government One of the problems that we have had to and its health minister, Mike Horan, have confront is that the Labor Party has refused to accepted a package which in the words of the fund various things such as the veterans. We federal Minister for Health and Family Ser- have taken the veterans out of the equation by vices, Mr Wooldridge, is no different to the giving veterans the gold card which, in effect, offer put to the Queensland government at the gives the states $150 million extra each year. premiers conference in March. At the moment the states subsidise the cost of This is a deal which Premier Borbidge said veterans in public hospitals by $150 million at the time of the conference was not as good a year or $750 million over five years. We for Queensland as it was for other states and have removed that from the equation. that there was no support for the Medicare Additionally, it is hard to believe that the offer from any government. This is the same Labor Party can come in here bleating about premier who orchestrated the walkout at the costing when on mental health and palliative premiers conference when he said, ‘If there is care the previous government cared so little no agreement in terms of a better deal, there Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2717 is no agreement on anything else. We will be able for surgery. It does nothing to ease the going home early.’ Premier Borbidge also problems of the state’s biggest hospital, the called the offer at the time ‘mean-spirited’ Royal Brisbane, which has a severe budgetary and an ‘insult’. A person would be entitled to crisis according to a Queensland health report. ask: what has changed the mind of the Queensland’s public health system will pay Queensland government when the offer it the penalty for Premier Borbidge’s weakness accepted late last month is the same one it and inability to stand firm with the other rejected at the premiers conference? The states and negotiate hard for what they are answer is not hard to find. rightfully entitled to receive from the Could it be that Queensland received an Commonwealth. Queenslanders and indeed all extra $65 million out of the $120 million one- Australians expect their governments both off funding aimed at inducing state and state and federal to provide the essential territories to sign the new agreements before requirements for their basic health care needs. the end of June, $25 million of which would The Howard government and now the have been shared amongst the other states had Borbidge government have made a farce of they signed? An unkind person may see this the public health system, amongst other as nothing more than a bribe. I probably things. They have eroded the pharmaceutical would not, but an unkind person would. Or is benefits scheme by introducing the manifestly it simply that Queensland has sold out to put unfair and medically dangerous therapeutic the issue to rest before the state election, group premium and treated the Medicare which has been widely tipped in early June? system as a farce. Earlier on, Senator Unfortunately, there will be no rest for the Knowles was talking about people leaving patients and employees of the state’s public private health insurance. (Time expired) hospital system. They will be forced to endure The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT a hospital system which is on the brink of (Senator McKiernan)—The time for the collapse. Today’s Courier-Mail highlights a debate on the matter of public importance has case where a mother had to give birth on the expired. path outside the Bundaberg Hospital as nobody was answering the night bell. The NOTICES OF MOTION child had to be covered with gravel from the Superannuation Committee path in order to keep it warm. It is not as if Bundaberg is a small rural community; it is Senator HEFFERNAN (New South a major provincial city in Queensland. The Wales)—by leave—At the request of Senator hospital was locked. There was nobody there. Watson, I give notice that, on the next day of Fortunately the mother did not have complica- sitting, he will move: tions, otherwise it could have been a dire That the time for the presentation of the report situation for the whole family. of the Select Committee on Superannuation on the provisions of the Workplace Relations Amendment The Queensland government has accepted (Superannuation) Bill 1997 be extended to 26 May an offer which has done nothing to address 1998. the effect the decline in private health insur- ance is having on the public system. It has BUDGET 1997-98 not tackled the statistic which sees Queens- Consideration by Legislation Committees land as a state which has a lower number of people in private health cover than the nation- Additional Information al rate of 32 per cent. It does not address the Senator HEFFERNAN (New South shortfall of health programs which see Wales)—On behalf of Senator Sandy Mac- Queensland as one of the most under serviced donald, I present additional information states in terms of health and community received from the Foreign Affairs, Defence service funding. It does nothing to ease the and Trade Legislation Committee relating to plight of more than 12,000 Queenslanders the additional estimates supplementary hear- already waiting longer than medically advis- ings for 1997-98. 2718 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

COMMITTEES PAYMENT SYSTEMS (REGULATION) BILL 1998 Scrutiny of Bills Committee Report RETIREMENT SAVINGS ACCOUNT Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- PROVIDERS SUPERVISORY LEVY ia)—On behalf of Senator Cooney, I present IMPOSITION BILL 1998 the fifth report of 1998 of the Senate Standing SUPERANNUATION SUPERVISORY Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills. I also lay LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1998 on the table Scrutiny of Bills Alert Digest No. 6 1998, dated 13 May 1998. Report of Economics Legislation Committee Ordered that the report be printed. Senator HEFFERNAN (New South BUDGET 1997-98 Wales)—On behalf of Senator Ferguson, I Consideration of Legislation Committees present the report of the Economics Legisla- tion Committee on the provisions of the Additional Information Australian Prudential Regulation Authority Senator HEFFERNAN (New South Bill 1998 and 10 related bills, together with Wales)—On behalf of Senator Tierney, I submissions. present additional information received by the Ordered that the report be printed. Employment, Education and Training Legisla- tion Committee, together with certain tran- COMMITTEES scripts of evidence relating to the additional Uranium Mining and Milling Committee estimates supplementary hearings for 1997-98. Report: Government Response AUSTRALIAN PRUDENTIAL Senator BROWNHILL (New South REGULATION AUTHORITY BILL Wales—Parliamentary Secretary to the 1998 Minister for Trade)—I present the AUTHORISED DEPOSIT-TAKING government’s response to the report of the INSTITUTIONS SUPERVISORY LEVY Senate Select Committee on Uranium Mining IMPOSITION BILL 1998 and Milling. I seek leave to incorporate the response in Hansard and to move a motion in AUTHORISED NON-OPERATING relation to the document. HOLDING COMPANIES Leave granted. SUPERVISORY LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1998 The document read as follows— GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO THE RE- FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS PORT OF THE SENATE SELECT COMMIT- SUPERVISORY LEVIES COLLECTION TEE ON URANIUM MINING AND MILLING BILL 1998 IN AUSTRALIA Conclusion/Recommendation 1 FINANCIAL SECTOR REFORM . On the basis of available evidence, the uranium (AMENDMENTS AND mining and milling industry will be sufficiently TRANSITIIONAL PROVISIONS) BILL viable financially to be able to meet its environ- 1998 mental, health and safety, and security responsi- bilities fully. FINANCIAL SECTOR Response (SHAREHOLDINGS) BILL 1998 The Government notes this conclusion. GENERAL INSURANCE Conclusion/Recommendation 2 SUPERVISORY LEVY IMPOSITION . The Committee supports the cautious approach BILL 1998 which was favoured by the Fox Report and the need for continuing, dedicated research into all LIFE INSURANCE SUPERVISORY aspects of uranium mining and utilisation. LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1998 Response Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2719

The Government notes this recommendation, and . The concept of the social impact study could comments that there is a range of Australian and offer a viable framework within which a number international agencies with appropriate expertise. In of the issues arising in the context of major particular, attention is drawn to Commonwealth and development projects (such as mining) can be State legislation relating to environmental protec- identified, analysed and discussed. tion and nuclear and radiation safety, and nuclear Response safeguards. Australia is at the forefront of minimising the environmental impacts of uranium The Government notes the conclusion. Consider- mining. ation of social issues is a normal part of the Environmental Impact Assessment process, and as Conclusion/Recommendation 3 such these issues are addressed by the project . Although there is little evidence of unnecessary proponent in documentation for public review such overlap or duplication between Commonwealth as Environmental Impact Statements. However, the and relevant state/territory authorities, it believes Government also recognises that special circum- that there is scope for improvement in handling stances existed in the context of development in the of proposals to mine uranium, and in subsequent Kakadu Region. It initiated the Kakadu Region evaluation of achievement of environmental Social Impact Study (KRSIS) as a separate study goals. which investigated the effects of development, such Response as tourism and mining, on Aboriginal communities in the region. Reports flowing from the KRSIS are The Government notes the recommendation. The currently under consideration by stakeholders. The Government will continue to work with KRSIS process could form the framework for State/Territory authorities to ensure the cooperative future consideration of the regional social impact approaches to environmental protection are con- of development, particularly where indigenous tinued and enhanced as appropriate. The Govern- people are concerned. ment is currently in the process of developing a more effective framework for inter-governmental Conclusion/Recommendation 6 relations on the environment. . There should be a full public evaluation of Conclusion/Recommendation 4 rehabilitation and remedial work at Radium Hill and the former tailings dam at Port Pirie, with . Uranium mining, where it is permitted, should periodical reappraisal. only occur under the strictest conditions for the Response protection of the environment. Management of the former Radium Hill uranium Response mine site and former tailings dam site at Port Pirie The Government accepts this recommendation and in South Australia is the responsibility of the South notes projects may only operate under best practi- Australian Government. The Government notes the cable technology. Consistent with its policy com- South Australian Government’s advice that it mitment, the Government considers proposals for regularly inspects these sites and minor repair and the development of new uranium mines. Projects remedial work is carried out if required. The need to satisfy stringent assessments of their Government notes that the South Australian potential environmental and heritage impacts Government is of the view that these measures are including full consultations with Aboriginal inter- adequate and that a full public evaluation with ests involved to ensure their views are taken into periodical reappraisal is not warranted. account and their legal rights are not diminished. Conclusion/Recommendation 7 The Government recognises the States and Northern Territory have the prime role in the regulation of . Tailings management is among the most serious uranium mining to protect the environment, and challenges facing the uranium mining industry, notes the Commonwealth has a key role in assess- industry regulators and their scientific advisers. ing the environmental impacts of new proposals. Response The Government also considers that the Common- The Government notes Australia is at the forefront wealth has a responsibility and interest in relation of applying best practicable technology for tailings to the assessment and approval of uranium mining management at uranium mines appropriate to the and milling operations as they involve matters of environment in which the mine is situated. Manage- national environmental significance. The Govern- ment of tailings is a key issue which is considered ment is currently considering, with State and on a case-by-case basis in development of new Territory Governments, processes for handling mines as environmental impacts are considered. Commonwealth responsibility and interest in The application of "best practicable technology" relation to matters of national environmental requires regular review in line with improvements significance. in knowledge. Conclusion/Recommendation 5 Conclusion/Recommendation 8 2720 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

. Research is integral to constructive regulation of Rivers Region, due to the environmental sensitivity mining and to minimising the impact of mining of the region and this scrutiny is continually activity upon the environment. enhanced. The Government believes consultative Response arrangements at mines in other regions are a matter to be considered on a case-by-case basis. For The Government notes the conclusion and refers to example in the case of Olympic Dam in South its response to recommendation 2. The site specific Australia, periodic environmental audits are being nature of any mine and its receiving environment conducted, with the results to be publicly available, need to be understood in order to optimise environ- and the Government has facilitated the establish- mental management; it is not always sufficient to ment of a Community Consultative Forum which apply generic information, or information from will maintain a regular flow of information to the other minesites. public about the environmental performance at Conclusion/Recommendation 9 Olympic Dam. . The high level of scrutiny which the uranium Conclusion/Recommendation 12 industry receives is warranted in that it responds . A new Commonwealth Uranium Authority to the sensitivity associated with uranium mining (CUA) should be established without delay with and has contributed materially to minimising responsibility for— adverse effects on the environment. - approvals to mine; Response - direction of environmental impact studies; The Government accepts that there are special considerations in relation to uranium mining. - supervision of plans and programs to ensure impact of mines on the environment is Conclusion/Recommendation 10 minimised; . The regulatory structure should ensure that the - triennial audits of environmental performance results of research are promptly reflected in at mines (or at such shorter intervals as may enhanced standards. be necessary); Response - review, audit and evaluation of health and The Government agrees regulatory standards should safety measures at the mines and other loca- be kept under constant review and amended as tions where nuclear materials are stored. appropriate to reflect the results of research. The Response Government subscribes to the "precautionary The Government does not accept this recommenda- principle" in this regard and in its Inter-govern- tion. The States and Northern Territory have the mental Agreement on the Environment. The prime responsibility for regulation of mining as Government also refers to its response to Recom- well as health and safety, and this is the appropriate mendation 18 concerning the adoption of interna- level of Government to administer these responsi- tional standards. bilities. Existing environmental impact assessment Conclusion/Recommendation 11 procedures already deal with approvals to mine, . New administrative arrangements are necessary direction of impact studies and supervision of plans to ensure high levels of performance, full utilisa- and programs requiring minimisation of environ- tion of Australia’s experience in uranium mining mental impacts. Uranium mine developments are since the 1970s, rapid adoption of world best subject to joint State/Commonwealth assessment. practice and vigorous public accountability In addition, environmental and health and safety nationally and locally. audits are already provided for under existing arrangements (industry/state governments and Response Northern Territory/Commonwealth). The Govern- The Government notes this recommendation for ment does not believe the proposed CUA offers any new arrangements. While existing administrative advantage over current arrangements. Note also the arrangements have contributed to high levels of response to Recommendation 3. environmental protection, as evidenced by uranium Conclusion/Recommendation 13 mines developed and operated under current arrangements, the Government is prepared to . The CUA, providing its high standards are met, consider improvements where this leads to greater may delegate tasks to State and Territory govern- effectiveness and efficiency. In this regard note the ment authorities. Government’s response to Recommendations 3 and Response 4. The Government rejects the need for a CUA for Existing arrangements already contribute to a high reasons already covered, but accepts the key role level of public accountability. The Government of State and Territory authorities towards attain- notes the level of public scrutiny in the Alligator ment of high environmental standards. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2721

Conclusion/Recommendation 14 prehensive expertise in the environmental im- . National coordination provided by the CUA pacts of uranium mining and milling, and a body should be complemented at each mine by a where such skills and expertise may be acquired, consultative committee composed of representa- fostered and developed. tives of proprietors, governments, unions, conser- Response vation and local interests. The Government notes that the Supervising Scien- Response tist has had an important role in contributing to the While rejecting the need for the CUA, the Govern- protection of the environment in relation to the ment notes the recommendation regarding consulta- operation of the Ranger and Nabarlek uranium tive arrangements. The Government considers, as mines and recognises that this should continue in stated under the response to Recommendation 11, respect of proposals for Jabiluka and any other that consultative arrangements between mine proposed mines in the region. operators and the local community are desirable In relation to the development of expertise, the such as those already in place in the Alligator Government points to its response to Recommenda- Rivers Region and being established at Olympic tion 15. An extensive body of expertise exists in Dam. relation to uranium mining issues, and the princi- Conclusion/Recommendation 15 ples of contestability should apply in accessing appropriate expertise from government, academic . Government Senators, on the basis that the and private sector providers. Committee’s inquiry found that present federal arrangements have proven to be satisfactory and Conclusion/Recommendation 17 suitable, are unconvinced that a new national . The proposed CUA and the Supervising Scientist authority is either a necessary or effective should collaborate constructively in ensuring that mechanism for achievement of the goals for the good practice which now prevails is main- whose accomplishment it is being created. They tained and improved; that world best practice believe, however, that the proposed consultative standards are, as a matter of course, promptly committees have merit in their own right and applied in all uranium mines in Australia; and will furnish the additional scrutiny of uranium that through public accountability mechanisms mining which in part motivates the proposal for the Australian public are informed about the the new Authority. In terms of consequential quality of the environmental performance at recommendations about collaboration between uranium mines. the proposed CUA and the Supervising Scientist, they do not see any reason for an enlarged role Response for the Supervising Scientist but they agree that As considered earlier, the Government does not see the expertise of the organisation should be more the need for a new Commonwealth Uranium generally available on a fee-for-service basis. Authority and considers current administrative Response arrangements adequately provide for best practice. The Government agrees with the conclu- Conclusion/Recommendation 18 sion/recommendation and considers that consulta- . The results of verified research on health and tive committees are appropriate and must include safety of employees must be applied without representation by indigenous claimants and title- delay. The Select Committee is especially critical holders. The Government considers that the princi- of the long, drawn-out delay in adoption of the ples of contestability should apply in accessing latest international standards concerning radiation appropriate expertise and that any services provided exposure. Present practices whilst satisfactory by the Supervising Scientist should be as appropri- must be seen as minimum standards. ate on a fee-for-service basis. Response Conclusion/Recommendation 16 In September 1997, the Government announced the . The Supervising Scientist for the Alligator Rivers formation of the Australian Radiation Protection Region is an essential component of the frame- and Nuclear Safety Agency (ARPANSA). work which has materially contributed to ARPANSA will provide advice on all matters minimising the effects of mining on an concerned with the safety of radiation and nuclear environmentally important part of Australia. The activities and will promote the development of value of its research role is indisputable. uniform national regulatory approaches to the The Supervising Scientist should be encouraged control of radiation-related activities. to develop, in response to demand, a broad It should be noted that radiation protection activi- expertise in environmental aspects of uranium ties in uranium mining and milling lie almost mining and milling. It is of positive value for entirely in the domain of State and Territory Australia to have a scientific body with a com- jurisdiction. The Commonwealth role through 2722 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

ARPANSA is mostly to assist the States and The Government believes the protection of workers Territories towards the application of common from the health effects of radiation is of paramount standards and requirements. This is achieved by importance. way of the Environment Protection (Nuclear The Government draws attention to the research Codes) Act 1978 which provides for the joint carried out into the effects of radiation by the development of regulatory codes with supporting International Commission on Radiological Protec- guideline material which ultimately become manda- tion (ICRP). These are based on extensive studies tory requirements under the appropriate State or of exposed human populations, by the United Territory laws. Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of National regulatory codes have been developed to Atomic Radiation. cover the radiation protection of workers and the The ICRP reached the judgement that dose limits public during the operation of mines and mills. should be set such that the total occupational dose Australia has always been one of the first countries received during a full working life would not to adopt the latest international standards. The exceed about 1 Sievert, received moderately National Health and Medical Research Council and uniformly year by year (but tempered by the the National Occupational Health and Safety principle that doses should be as low as reasonably Commission adopted the International Commission achievable). This translates to an average annual on Radiological Protection recommended dose dose of 20 mSv per year. For practical purposes limits in 1995, making Australia one of the first ICRP expressed this limit as 100 mSv over 5 countries to do so (see also Recommendations 20 consecutive years with a maximum of 50 mSv in and 22). any one year, rather than specifying a career dose limit. The averaging period is a compromise Conclusion/Recommendation 19 between requiring employers to maintain exposure . As a basis for ensuring employee health and records over many years and insisting that doses safety, data collection and analysis needs to be are kept below 20 mSv in any year. standardised on a national basis in the develop- Conclusion/Recommendation 21 ment of the National Radiation Dose Register. . Employees in uranium mines and mills should be Response fully briefed personally on radiation and related The Government supports a common means of hazards. Mining companies should meet the costs reporting the dose results to the Australian Radi- of briefings. ation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency which Response will be responsible for developing and maintaining The Government notes that under existing State and the National Radiation Dose Register. Territory legislation it is a requirement for com- However, the Government disagrees with the panies to fully brief their workforce on radiation- standardisation of methods for data collection and related hazards associated with mining and milling analysis throughout Australia. Different monitoring of uranium. methods are not only beneficial but essential for the The Government also recognises that there is a case current and proposed uranium facilities and other for special culturally appropriate interpretation and worksites (eg health care which involves production translation of information concerning potential of radiation) in Australia. For example, in the case hazards for any indigenous or other employees of uranium mines the monitoring approach for from non-English speaking backgrounds, proposing radon progeny in an underground mine will be to become part of the uranium mining or milling different from the approach required for an open workforce. cut operation (due to the different magnitude of results, different unattached fraction, etc). The key Conclusion/Recommendation 22 issue is that all data collection and analysis is . Current health and safety standards (especially as undertaken in compliance with the latest recom- exemplified at Ranger) should be regarded as mendations of the applicable peak bodies. minimum standards. Also, standardisation would stifle research into Response more advanced monitoring approaches and would The Government believes that the health and safety then delay the implementation of any improvements standards which should be regarded as a minimum in radiation monitoring. for radiological protection are those which have Conclusion/Recommendation 20 been recommended and adopted by the National Health and Medical Research Council and the . Determination of appropriate career dose limits National Occupation and Health Safety Commis- should be a research priority for government sion. These standards were developed in parallel health authorities and mining companies. and with full knowledge of the ICRP’s recommen- Response dations (see response to Recommendation 20). Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2723

The Government notes that existing mines are dose limit (when determined) prior to retirement operating within these minimum standards and it is age. expected that any future mines would have to also Response operate within these standards. The Government refers to its response to Recom- The Government recognises that there is a specific mendation 20 regarding career dose limits. As need to consider assessment criteria based on ICRP stated earlier, both ICRP and Australian authorities for indigenous people’s exposure given that they express the dose limits of average annual doses live on the land, drink the water and are specifical- accumulated over a specified period. Australian ly exposed to possible contaminants for longer recommendations do allow the regulator to permit periods. The critical pathways for their exposure to an extension of the averaging period to a maximum contaminants should be determined on the basis of of ten years in exceptional circumstances. This indigenous lifestyle in consultation with local should ensure that the annual average of 20 mSv indigenous people. will not be exceeded over the long term and the Conclusion/Recommendation 23 Government believes that the question of compen- . Mining companies and regulatory authorities sation will not therefore arise. should actively pursue the "as low as reasonably Conclusion/Recommendation 26 achievable" (ALARA) principle in radiation . All mines should consult the Environmental matters and report on the extent that they suc- Research Institute of the Supervising Scientist ceed in operating well below prescribed levels. (ERISS) on methodologies and technologies for Response identifying and monitoring background radiation The Government’s view is that the principle of at mine sites and in the region where the mine ALARA is an essential part of dose optimisation is located. and it supports mining companies and regulators Response actively pursuing this objective and reporting on the extent to which they meet this objective in line The Government notes the contribution ERISS has with advances in best practicable technology made to research in the Alligator Rivers Region, available. The Government also notes that radiation and agrees that ERISS is one of a number of bodies is just one of many potential occupational hazards. at the Commonwealth and State level with exper- tise on background radiation which could be Conclusion/Recommendation 24 consulted by mines. Importantly, the Government . A uniform method of measuring, calculating and considers that the principles of contestability should recording dose limits should be adopted and apply when mines access appropriate expertise in applied. this area. Response Conclusion/Recommendation 27 The Government supports a common means of . Governments, mining companies and Aboriginal reporting the dose results to the Australian Radi- organisations should consider negotiation of ation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency which comprehensive statements of agreement within will be responsible for developing and maintaining which partnerships can develop to consolidate the National Radiation Dose Register. economic and social benefits within a context of However, the Government refers back to its respect for indigenous culture, customs and ways position stated in responses to Recommendation 19, of life. that it disagrees with the standardisation of methods Response for measuring and calculating doses throughout The Government’s policy is that where Aboriginal Australia. The Government also refers to its interests are involved, the Government is commit- response to Recommendation 20 which recognises ted to ensuring full and appropriate consultation the thorough deliberation given by the International with affected Aboriginal communities with their Commission on Radiological Protection in relation views being taken into account in accordance with to career dose limits, and the incorporation of this applicable law. Aboriginal and cultural issues are research into Australian standards. considered in the Environmental Impact Statement Conclusion/Recommendation 25 process for new projects. The Government believes . The matter of career dosage has not been exam- these matters are most appropriately considered on ined sufficiently thoroughly by scientific and a case-by-case basis by relevant stakeholders. medical authorities. The Australian Radiation Conclusion/Recommendation 28 Laboratory should take the lead in consultation . The Committee is concerned that resources with mining companies and unions. assigned for safeguards programs and develop- Health authorities should examine a means of ments are not keeping pace with developments compensation for employees who exceed a career in the nuclear industry. 2724 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Response Conclusion/Recommendation 30 The Government disagrees that the resources . The Senate Procedure Committee should exam- assigned for safeguards are not keeping pace with ine the implications of globalisation for parlia- developments in the nuclear industry. Maintenance mentary scrutiny of government, administration and development of the nuclear safeguards system and public policy. at multilateral and bilateral levels is central to the Response global nuclear non-proliferation regime. The Government notes the conclusion/recommend- The Government will continue to work with the ation. International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to Conclusion/Recommendation 31 ensure resources are available to maintain the effectiveness and efficiency of the IAEA safeguards . Safeguards practices must continue to develop, system. The Government does not accept that there and such development should continue in a calm is a simple arithmetical relationship between the and rational manner. The risks which nuclear quantities of nuclear material in the international power involves are less likely to engender unjus- nuclear fuel cycle and the costs of safeguards tified apprehension or insecurity if addressed activities. calmly, cautiously, deliberately and expedi- tiously. Equally, the Government is fully aware of the need Response to ensure that Australia can monitor and evaluate developments in the international nuclear industry The Government endorses this finding. Because and assess the implications of those developments nuclear energy has both peaceful and military uses for national non-proliferation and safeguards policy it is subject to far higher standards of scrutiny, approaches. The Government will continue to safeguards and safety than any other industry. The ensure the availability of sufficient resources for Government has traditionally taken a cautious these purposes, including for the Australian Safe- approach to the formulation of policy in this area guards Office. and, for example, has pioneered strict non-prolifer- ation approaches to questions of nuclear supply in Conclusion/Recommendation 29 ways which enhanced the international regime. . The safeguards system needs constant attention The Government provides many sources of infor- to work. Australia has a long record of contribut- mation on these issues, for example through the ing to the vitality of safeguards, international and Australian Safeguards Office’s Annual Report, national. It is a record which should be main- inquiries into the nuclear industry and information tained. regularly provided by officers from relevant Response Government agencies, as a contribution to balanced The Government accepts this recommendation and and informed public debate. supports a continuing Australian commitment to the Dissenting Report long term maintenance and development of the In preparing its response to the Senate Select international and national nuclear safeguards Committee Report the Government has taken into system. account the dissenting report by Senators Lees and Australia has a long record of contributing to the Margetts. The Government recognises the concerns development of the nuclear safeguards system, that motivate these Senators in regard to their reflecting the dual objectives of enhancing position on uranium mining and the nuclear fuel Australia’s security by limiting the proliferation of cycle. nuclear weapons and increasing Australia’s pros- The dissenting report’s main recommendation perity through support for international and bilateral follows: nuclear safeguards which provide the indispensable ". . . this minority report recommends against the basis for uranium exports. expansion of the uranium industry, opposes all In recent years Australia has been a prominent new uranium mining proposals in Australia and advocate of measures, recently agreed in the IAEA, recommends the cancellation of all export to strengthen international safeguards in the light licenses for uranium mining and the refusal of of the discovery after the Gulf War of Iraq’s any new export licenses for further uranium clandestine nuclear weapons program. mines in Australia."(pp. 43-44) Separately, through the Australian Safeguards The Government considers that the dissenting Office, Australia has for many years operated a report’s call to close down the industry ignores supplementary safeguards support program covering both the economic benefits of the industry to research and development projects, regional training Australia, the sound environmental record of programs and other activities, such as participation existing uranium mining projects in Australia and in international experts’ meetings and advisory the stringent environmental, heritage, safety and groups, in support of IAEA safeguards. safeguards arrangements in place. It also ignores Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2725 the likelihood of taxpayers needing to pay substan- dealt with so far. The fact that there are tial compensation to mining companies for on- processes means that those processes must be payment to investors in the event of the Govern- adequately handled and therefore the so-called ment cancelling existing export approvals. world’s best practice is being maintained. We The minority report also concludes: talk about Australia being in the forefront of "Should the Government decide to continue applying best practice technology for tailings permitting the export of Australian uranium, then management at uranium mines appropriate to the other recommendations contained in this the environment in which the mine is situated. minority report should be implemented to minimise the adverse effects of Australia’s That is basically saying that Australia is best uranium mining."(p.44) at operating mines in Australia. Terrific! Very The Government considers that the recommenda- useful information. tions do not take adequate account of the stringent The one thing I thought was particularly environmental, heritage, safety and safeguards useful was recommendation No. 12. This was arrangements in place. interesting because this appears to be the big The Government firmly believes it is possible to win that the Labor Party seemed to have have a safe and environmentally responsible negotiated in relation to this inquiry. Remem- uranium mining industry in Australia and considers ber that a lot of people within the ALP over that its responses to the recommendations of the majority report justify this. time have had great concerns in relation to uranium mining and milling, great concerns Senator BROWNHILL—I move: about what the future will be for uranium That the Senate take note of the document. mining and milling. The big trade-off in Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) relation to this report was that there was to be (5.41 p.m.)—As the deputy chair, I was a recommendation for a new Commonwealth obviously very much involved with the Senate uranium authority. As recommendation No. 12 Select Committee on Uranium Mining and states: Milling. I found it an extremely difficult time. A new Commonwealth Uranium Authority (CUA) I would hope that many of the committees I should be established without delay with responsi- work on in future are not as difficult in terms bility for— of the working relationships and the walls of - approvals to mine; opposition that tended to exist within that - direction of environmental impact studies; committee structure. But, given that I was on - supervision of plans and programs to ensure that committee, I would like to suggest that impact of mines on the environment is the response is quite interesting, though minimised; hardly surprising. Much of what was written - triennial audits of environmental performance in the majority report was in fact saying what at mines (or at such shorter intervals as may a fine job is being done already, world’s best be necessary); practice, rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, and how - review, audit and evaluation of health and everything is being done almost as well as it safety measures at the mines and other loca- can be done. tions where nuclear materials are stored. Many of the recommendations are similar. Surprise, surprise! Response: There was one very strange recommendation. The government does not accept this recommenda- Recommendation 1 states: tion. On the basis of available evidence, the uranium Obviously the states and the Northern Terri- mining and milling industry will be sufficiently tory are doing such a wonderful job that it is viable financially to be able to meet its environ- really not necessary. Any other recommenda- mental, health and safety, and security responsibili- tions that involved any potential Common- ties fully. wealth uranium authority got the same kind The response was: of response. The government notes this conclusion. One thing I did find interesting was that, Terrific! Most of it is about how, as I say, the under recommendation No. 15, there was a roles of government are being adequately desire by the Commonwealth government not 2726 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 to be involved with any expansion of the role The committee is saying that there needs to of the Supervising Scientist, but: be a determination of appropriate career dose limits, a research priority. At the moment, the . . . they do not see any reason for an enlarged role for the Supervising Scientist but they agree that the companies themselves can come up with what expertise of the organisation should be more they think is a safe level, and that has been generally available on a fee-for-service basis. the problem in a number of the reports, whether it is about Roxby Downs or other You do not enlarge the role, but you allow places. It is the company that has been saying the Office of the Supervising Scientist to tout what it thinks is safe, and there have been for business. What does this mean? You do disagreements between the company and not enlarge them and they are allowed to find organisations like the Australian Radiation some of their own funding—what a surprise! Laboratories which are set up to manage and What does that mean in the longer term? If I comment on these things. Under the response were to gaze into a crystal ball, I would say to recommendation 20, we see that: that in the longer term there will be a lot of pressure put on the government so that the The Government believes the protection of workers industry no longer will have to pay for their from the health effects of radiation is of paramount importance. own supervision, no longer will have to pay for that tiny level of assurance that the com- Motherhood and apple pie. It continues: munity expect from the government on their The Government draws attention to the research behalf to be required of industry. Keep your carried out into the effects of radiation by the eyes on the ball because within a very short International Commission on Radiological Protec- time we will see that kind of pressure. tion (ICRP). These are based on extensive studies of exposed human populations... If the OSS do get extra contracts, they will ...... have to do it within their resources, I imagine, because they do not want an expanded role. This translates to an average annual dose of 20 Over time, the government will say, ‘See, mSv per year. For practical purposes ICRP express- ed this limit as 100 Msv over 5 consecutive years you’ve got enough funding so we’ll start with a maximum of 50 Msv in any one year, rather reducing or removing the levy associated with than specifying a career dose limit. industry.’ I just think that is a potential, a crystal ball gaze. What does that mean for workers and their feeling of safety over time? We are saying We have some other very interesting recom- that we will take whatever seems to be easier, mendations in the majority report. Under and we as a government are not going to take recommendation 20, it says: the responsibility of making sure that these . Determination of appropriate career dose limits doses are in fact reasonable, not safe, under should be a research priority for government the career limits. We are moving around health authorities and mining companies. people so that we have an average situation. I do not think that is particularly safe anyway. I would think the public would think this is If they have been exposed to high levels of the very least that government should do. It radiation, that is a bad thing in itself and we should make sure that in the information that should be making sure that every exposure to is provided, the assurances that are given by workers is as low as can be made possible, companies, by private corporations and by and that is not what is happening at the proponents, about the safety of radiation doses moment. I think that is a great pity. and uranium doses—and that includes issues like the proposed Jabiluka mine—that the It is hardly surprising that the government underground miners will be aware that they did not accept my minority report. It says: will be, we believe, experiencing unsafe The Government considers that the dissenting levels of radiation from very high rate on- report’s call to close down the industry ignores sources and aware of the inability of com- both the economic benefits of the industry to panies to actually reduce those to any levels Australia,— that are considered in any way safe. those benefits were never proved— Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2727 the sound environmental record of existing uranium cant and conscientious work by those mem- mining projects in Australia— bers of the committee who regularly partici- remember we were saying that the fact these pated in the work of the committee in the true processes exist means that they must obvious- spirit of inquiry and investigation. The basis ly be done well— of the work of the committee was attendance and the stringent environmental, heritage, safety at the hearings, investigations and on-site and safeguards arrangements in place— visits, detailed reading of the evidence pre- despite the quite clear evidence that was sented in submissions and careful examination given on a number of occasions that many of of the evidence presented at our public hear- these standards were not being adhered to and ings. The majority of the committee addressed that, when there were problems, it took a long real problems, not hypothetical problems, and time to find out information and even longer we looked for constructive answers. That to get action in these cases. I think it is a certainly has been recognised in the concern. I think we have a head in the sand government’s response to our report which attitude to uranium mining—and I did not was tabled today, in which the government, mean that as a pun. I really do think that, if by and large, accepted the majority of the Australia wishes to continue to mine and mill committee’s recommendations and findings. uranium, this kind of response simply is not The report and the consequent government good enough. response represent a significant failure for the Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) anti-uranium lobby, and that was reflected (5.50 p.m.)—It is not surprising that Senator right through the conduct of this inquiry. Margetts would reject the response of the They were complacent and they failed to government and the Minister for Resources provide rigorous analysis of the evidence, and and Energy (Senator Parer) to the report of that was because they were significantly out the Senate Select Committee on Uranium of date. The anti-uranium lobby that partici- Mining and Milling because, of course, she pated—both as members of this committee had a minority report, a dissenting report, to and as those who presented their submissions the majority report of that committee when to this committee—were locked in the argu- that report was tabled. The interesting thing ments of the 1970s. They had not updated about the minority report was that it really their information and they had not updated was a facade in that it sought to create a lot their knowledge. That has been reflected in of differences and raise a lot of issues of the minority report and, quite properly, it has significance that really were not significant been reflected in the response the government when you thoroughly examined those issues. has provided to the report which was handed down by the majority of the committee. The differences between Senator Margetts and Senator Lees and the rest of the commit- The perspective of those who were engaged tee really were not what I would call signifi- in opposing uranium mining was essentially cant differences on a number of the substan- a political perspective. They looked for tive issues that were investigated. The real evidence that supported their arguments, difference was that Senator Margetts and rather than assessing the evidence on the Senator Lees came with a predetermined broad base of the information that was provid- position of blanket opposition to uranium ed. Indeed, they did not look at all at what mining. With that predetermined position, was reasonable and supportable in the evi- they then sought to create issues where issues dence; they only looked for evidence which really did not exist in terms of the supported their side of the case. committee’s investigation and the committee’s Another aspect of the minority in this report. inquiry was that their interest was always In contrast to Senator Margetts, I strongly limited to looking for the bad news. As I said, welcome the government’s response to our they did not look at the broad evidence that report. It ought to be emphasised that the was provided to the committee; they only report was undertaken on the basis of signifi- looked for the limited news that was bad and 2728 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 that suited their particular case—and that was rejected in its response to our report today— when they bothered to turn up. I have to really represents the tombstone of the anti- exclude Senator Margetts from that criticism uranium industry because, as I said, it was because Senator Margetts generally did attend based on a limited analysis of the evidence our public hearings and inspections, although that was put before the committee and a she did miss a number of the private meetings predetermined view which looked only for of the committee. Her colleague in the evidence supporting that case and ignored the minority report was notable by her absence broad range of evidence presented to us. The for most of that inquiry. As I said, those who balanced evidence presented to us from across opposed uranium mining were very limited in the range of protagonists certainly indicated their application. all of the positive aspects of uranium mining, What I would argue is that policy decisions to which I have referred. That evidence, on that governments have to take cannot be balance, led the committee to conclude there governed by one side of the story. You have was no reason why uranium mining should to take into account all of the evidence that is not continue or expand in Australia. presented and then reach a balanced conclu- I would say that the anti-uranium campaign sion based on that evidence and make a in this country is certainly dead and remains choice between the options that are presented. only to be buried. It is not only that the The positive thing about uranium mining in numbers are not there in the community to Australia over the last 20 years of its oper- support the anti-uranium position; the main ation is that it has built up a very favourable point is that the evidence is not there to credit ledger, and that was clearly shown in support their position. There is no evidence to the evidence presented to the committee. It support the arguments they put. In the light of has built up a favourable credit ledger with modern experience, the facts simply do not regard to economic gains for Australia and stand up and say that we should oppose with regard to the fact that mining and uranium mining in this country. There have milling have been conducted with minimal been, as I said, 20 years of uranium mining impact on the environment. That was particu- in this country and a significant credit balance larly attested to by the evidence of the Super- has been built up over that period by the vising Scientist with regard to mining in the industry. In contrast, the doomsayers of the Kakadu region. industry simply do not have evidence to support their case on the basis of that 20 Uranium mining has also built up a very years experience. The 20 years experience has strong credit balance with regard to the high been a positive vindication for the decision and increasingly stricter health and safety that was taken back in the 1970s to allow standards in the conduct of mining, and the uranium mining to proceed based on the similarly strict standards in ensuring that findings of the then Fox inquiry. Australian uranium is used for civil purposes alone and is not diverted for military use. One of the key conclusions which the select That is a substantial achievement on the part committee reached was that the findings of of the Australian uranium mining industry, the Fox inquiry had been vindicated by the and it was that creditable record that led the evidence of that 20 years experience of committee to come down with the recommen- mining. Indeed, to the extent that there had dations we have put to government. Those been any impact from uranium mining on recommendations were supported by five of Australia, the expectations of the Fox inquiry the seven committee members, including the had not been realised, in terms of any poten- members of the major opposition, the Labor tial damage caused to the Australian environ- Party. Again, that is why we have seen the ment. government respond to those recommenda- The Fox inquiry overstated the possibility tions in the favourable way it has. of damage to the Australian environment as In contrast to that, the dissenting report— a result of uranium mining. All the evidence which the government has quite correctly that has built up over the 20 years since that Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2729 inquiry, and since uranium mining has been there was a huge problem looming in about actively undertaken in this country, shows that 10 or 15 years from the present time. In other even the fairly minimal damage that was words, there was a shortfall both in day-to- expected by the findings of the Fox inquiry day funding for the Department of Defence had not been fulfilled and there had been no and in the longer term. long-term damage to the Australian environ- It is informative to look at the history of ment at all as a result of this activity being how defence funding got into the position it undertaken. is in. It has been subject to decline for many I welcome the government’s response to years. It has been popular to talk about a this report. It vindicates the findings of the peace dividend after the ending of the Cold report. It vindicates the positive nature of this War in the 1989-90 period. The Australian industry for Australia, provided that all the community certainly have had a peace divi- safeguards are retained, which the committee dend in so far as they have seen their defence recommended and which have always operat- expenditure considerably reduced. For exam- ed to the very highest standards in this coun- ple, in the early 1980s, 2.8 per cent of GDP try, and which the government has indicated went to defence, or roughly 10 per cent of all in its response that it will be maintain- federal government outlays. In the budget ing.(Time expired) brought down last night, 1.9 per cent of GDP Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (6.00 now goes to defence, and only 8.7 per cent of p.m.)—I think it is an excellent report. I seek all federal government outlays. leave to continue my remarks later. The Labor years were when this decline Leave granted; debate adjourned. really took place. For many years there were successive cuts in defence outlays in real Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade terms, for a few years the vote stayed the Committee: Joint same, and on one or two occasions the vote Report went up marginally. But there was, overall, a very significant reduction in the amount of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT money going to defence. That was accompa- (Senator McKiernan)—Pursuant to standing nied, of course, by a significant reduction in order 38, I present the report of the Joint the number of members employed in the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence Force, both uniformed and civilian. Defence and Trade entitled Funding In rough terms, in the last 10 years, some- Australia’s defence, together with submis- thing like 16,000 employees—11,000 in sions, Hansard record of proceedings and uniform and about 5,000 in civilian employ- minutes of evidence which were presented to ment—were removed from the Department of the Temporary Chair of Committees, Senator Defence. Murphy, on 8 May 1998. In accordance with the terms of the order the publication of the At the same time, in real terms, federal documents was authorised. outlays kept going up. During that period federal budgets have grown significantly. Ordered that the report be printed. Nearly all departments have benefited from Senator MacGIBBON (Queensland) (6.02 this increase in growth. For example, Social p.m.)—by leave—I move: Security’s percentage has gone up from about That the Senate take note of the report. 27.2 per cent of federal outlays 10 years ago In February 1997, the Senate referred to the to 40.1 per cent in the budget last year. Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Compounded with this shrinking budget, the Defence and Trade an inquiry into the future country requires more and more from its expenditure requirements of the Department defence forces. You have only to think of the of Defence in the immediate future. The deployments that the Australian Defence committee found that there were two problem Force has undertaken in support of United areas in relation to funding. Firstly, there was Nations activity in the last 10 years to realise a shortfall in present funds and, secondly, that. 2730 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

A lot of equipment which had been bought seek out all avenues where work could be for the Vietnam War has become obsolete. performed more competitively in the supply Again, if we go back to the early 1980s, of services or in maintenance from civilian something like 17 per cent of the defence contractors and that has produced great vote—a much larger defence vote, relatively savings, in excess of $300 million a year. speaking, in those days—went on new capital Most importantly, the review which was equipment. For more than 10 years now, commissioned last year by the present about 28 per cent of the defence vote has minister, the defence efficiency review—the gone on new capital equipment. So the budget DER—was followed by the defence support has shrunk but the proportion for new equip- program—the DSP—which will incorporate ment has increased. As a consequence, ex- the findings of the efficiency review and will, penditure for personnel numbers, exercise in the longer term, produce very significant times, ammunition, war stores, flying hours, savings. steaming time and the rest of it, has dimin- We have reached the stage where the salami ished to cope with it. cannot be cut any thinner. We have certainly Side by side with this, there has been a reached a critical stage with respect to num- rapid expansion in the expenditure on regional bers in the Defence Force. You really cannot defence forces. We will not discuss what has maintain training with battalions that are at happened in China, but there has been a very only half strength. You cannot exercise a great expansion in China’s defence budget. battalion with a shortage of one rifle company Even countries like the five original ASEAN or take part in exercises, as the Labor Party states have increased in real terms by 75 per tried to do, with only four men in a section cent their expenditure on defence in the last when you need 10. There are problems today 10 years. While that has come to a bit of a with respect to ammunition supplies, exercise halt at the moment, with the Asian currency times, flying hours, steaming hours and track crisis, clearly that will resume in a year or miles. two when they get through their financial Above all, one of the things that came out problems. of the exercises and the deployments that we This government, coming into power, made with the United States is a critical accepted the forward estimates prepared by shortage of communications equipment. The the Labor government in their last budget. great change in military affairs that has taken That means they have not changed the for- place in the last decade is related to the ward estimates. Those forward estimates did development of electronics—the electromag- involve, despite the popular view that there netic spectrum—particularly in relation to has been no cut in defence, a reduction of 0.5 communications: satellite communications, per cent in real terms in the first budget high speed encrypted communications, data brought down by this government, in accord- transfer, intelligence gathering, and the rest of ance with the Labor estimates, and the main- it. tenance of no reduction in real terms in the As was shown in the Tandem Thrust exer- budget last year and in the one brought down cise—which is probably the biggest exercise last night. Those figures, as the defence com- we have held since the end of the Second mittee showed, were inadequate. World War involving American forces in In order to cope with the shrinking budget, Australia—elements of the ADF had signifi- the Department of Defence instituted a large cant problems with interoperability with the number of reviews. The force structure review American forces in relation to communica- has led to a significant reduction in personnel. tions. Of course, that is one of the problems The defence logistic reform program has we are having with the elements we have handled the logistic side, getting rid of the deployed in Kuwait at the present time—the three major stores depots for the three sepa- SAS and, to a lesser extent, the RAAF. Those rate services. In the commercial support shortcomings can be overcome and coped program—the CSP—the department tried to with in the short term, but if we are going to Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2731 operate effectively ourselves and with our moves weapons of mass destruction. Of allies we simply have to put more money into course, the uranium cycle is an important communications. concern for many of the people working in The committee recommended that there be that direction, and it certainly is not dead. The a 1½ to 2½ per cent growth in real terms in other issue is peace, in the true sense of the the defence vote for the next five years— word. It is a vital part of the pillars of Green starting after this budget because it was not politics. practicable to involve this budget. That is From my point of view, this means keeping modest and affordable growth and will go a watching brief on the issues of defence and some way to addressing the shortcomings that defence spending, looking to see whether or the Defence Force suffers from at the present not what defence is doing is reasonable, time. firstly in the terms of whether we are working The really worrying issue for the Depart- towards a more peaceful world and also in ment of Defence is the huge block obsoles- terms of accountability. Taxpayers’ money is cence which will occur in about 2010 or used in defence and it is reasonable to assume 2015. Significant equipment blocks like the that the reasons for defence spending of FA18s, the F111s, the FFGs—the DDGs will money are supportable and that they are be gone by then—the army’s armour and spending it in a way that makes reasonable artillery, and, above all, the technology the use of that money. army needs on the modern battlefield, will need to be replaced. There never has been a In my dissenting report to Funding time in our history when such a large block Australia’s defence, I argued that the majority of expenditure will be required over a period report failed in a number of ways. I argued of around five to 10 years. that it failed in its scope because, for reasons of time, resources and so on, it was con- There is no way that by incrementally sidered that the committee could not look at increasing the defence vote at this stage we the issue of security, so we did not deal with can accommodate that, because we are talking the issue of defending what from whom, or about an expenditure which, while it cannot why. We were not able to look at what the be precisely defined at the moment, is of the issues of security are within Australia. magnitude of between $15 billion to $25 billion. It is a huge amount of money on top The defence subcommittee was to inquire of the annual operating expenses. into and report on the level of funding re- The committee recommended that parlia- quired to ensure that the Australian defence ment must turn its mind to accommodating force is equipped, trained and maintained to that expenditure in that time frame of about a level necessary to provide for the defence 10 years hence. We will have to make that of Australia, as principally defined by stra- expenditure to maintain our independence and tegic guidance. So we do not look at security our own security. It is a situation that all issues here. If you separate, as I have argued, countries will face. The huge cost of operat- defence from security, you get to a situation ing in that age is something Australia can do, where the committee in effect asks Defence but we cannot do it unless we turn our minds what they want. Defence comes up with a to it seriously at this stage and make it afford- shopping list and says, ‘How much can you able. give us?’ Then we get down to a measure of efficiency, which is broadly defined as ‘bang Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) for your buck’. (6.12 p.m.)—It is interesting that we have had two reports to deal with today: one on urani- I quoted a spokesperson from the Depart- um mining and milling and one on defence. ment of Defence in the transcript as saying: It is no accident that I am speaking on both The starting point of any consideration of adequacy because one of the four principles of the of defence spending is how much capability you Greens is peace and disarmament. That are getting for every dollar that is going into the includes working towards a world that re- system. 2732 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

That seems to be Defence’s measure of their socks in terms of accountability; but we adequacy: bang for your buck; what can we are going to hand them five years guaranteed get? spending in advance. The irony is, that over time—because of the No matter what may happen—a change of nature of defence budgets which work differ- government or extra information—we are ently from other budgets—it has been pos- going to give them this kind of guarantee, sible for the heads of departments within along with less scrutiny and less accountabili- Defence to be able to save on personnel. This ty than they have now. We are also proposing has been going on for a while—save on to give them up to a 2.5 per cent annual real personnel, outsource, get rid of serving forces increase—no matter what happens to the rest and put those savings into more materiel; of our community—in defence funding. Of basically, more war toys, fewer people. Then course, social security has risen during that they come to parliament, put up their hands time—funnily enough, when more people are and say, ‘We have not got enough people to unemployed it becomes necessary to pay more run our submarines, or our frigates, or our social security. If the aim of government were cruisers. Give us some more money.’ We really to reduce unemployment, maybe we have to start saying that it is the responsibility would have to pay less in social security. But of Defence to use their resources effectively. I do not think those kinds of straight compari- If they are saving money on personnel and sons are particularly useful without the detail. those things that support personnel and people We have to start looking at why both major are not choosing to stay in the services, then parties favour throwing more money at large they must start asking themselves why this is procurement projects without proper accounta- happening. bility. We have to consider that we may have We have got to start asking why Defence a situation in 10 years time or so where the has a budget which is not able to be scruti- major materiel—the major lumpy investments nised on a line by line basis, as are other of defence—are no longer useable. We have budgets. There is no real reason why this to start thinking about what we are using should not be the case. Much of the detail on them for. What was our strategy 10, 15 or 20 purchasing plans is available to private indus- years ago in the Cold War scenario? Do we try, whose main object is to make dollars for automatically have to replace military equip- themselves. They get more access, I argue, in ment for use in a similar scenario? Do we a regular and integrated way to defence have to have the highest-tech frigates, the spending and defence spending plans than do highest-tech submarines for a superpower members of parliament. As a member of the regional engagement scenario in the next defence subcommittee I say that on a regular century? The answer, I would say, has not basis. It has got nothing to do with secrecy, been provided in this report. The rationale for it has got nothing to do with national security; doing things in that way has not been provid- it has got something to do with protecting the ed in this report. Some people who have position of Defence from the kind of scrutiny concerns about that strategy of the govern- that other departments have to undergo. ment wrote to the committee. They believe It is interesting to look at the recommenda- that it is fairly meaningless to come out with tions of the major committee. There is some a list of what defence needs are and how recognition of major horrific examples of much should be spent over how much time overspending and inefficiency and worse in without any consideration being given to or relation to the JORN project and the Collins there being any understanding of the rationale class submarines budget overruns—with 95 for Australia’s security. per cent of the project paid for and no real I have argued that the real security issues of delivery. Yet the majority report recom- Australia that concern Australians are things mends—wait for it—a five-year forward like what happens when we will no longer be defence budget commitment. There is some able to get fresh water. What happens when recognition that Defence are not pulling up our air is polluted to the point where we can Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2733 no longer operate in the same way we are government’s response to the Foreign Affairs, now? What happens in cases of climate Defence and Trade References Committee change, droughts, floods and famines? We report on Australia-China Relations which also have a situation, I believe, associated was presented to the Temporary Chairman of with globalisation or global warring—that is, Committees, Senator Hogg, on 14 April 1998. we have a situation where the new security In accordance with the terms of the standing threats within our region are mostly within order, the publication of the document was countries not between countries. I refer to authorised. security threats caused by inequalities; securi- ty threats caused by such things as IMF DUCK HUNTING packages which set one group of people The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I against another in search of scapegoats. We present responses from the Premier of Tas- have seen that in Indonesia and in other mania (Mr Rundle, MHA), the ACT Minister countries in the region. We have seen it in for Urban Services (Mr Smyth, MLA) and the Boznia Herzegovina. We have seen it in Premier of South Australia (Mr Olsen) to the Africa. We have seen huge horrific examples resolution of the Senate of 25 March 1998 of the impact of globalisation. concerning duck hunting. How are we going to arm ourselves against YOUTH SUICIDE that sort of impact? What are we doing to reduce the security threats of that level of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I globalisation? The answer is not covered in present a response from the Managing Partner the majority report. The answer is not even of Corrs Chambers Westgarth Lawyers to the conceived of within the majority report. I resolution of the Senate of 30 March 1998 really believe that if we are going to be concerning youth suicide. serious about Australia’s security—let alone Australia’s defence—we have got to start REPRESENTATION OF THE looking at those issues seriously for the NORTHERN TERRITORY future. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I Question resolved in the affirmative. present a letter from the Speaker of the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly DOCUMENTS conveying the text of a resolution of the Auditor-General’s Reports Assembly concerning the vacancy in the representation of the Northern Territory Report No. 40 of 1997-98 caused by the resignation of former Senator Report No. 41 of 1997-98 Bob Collins. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT GRAFTON MEATWORKS (Senator Chapman)—Pursuant to standing order 166, I present Auditor-General’s reports The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I Nos 40 and 41 of 1997-98 as listed on today’s present a response from the Premier of New Order of Business which were presented to South Wales, Mr Carr, to a resolution of the the President on 17 and 21 April 1998. In Senate of 1 April 1998 concerning the Graf- accordance with the terms of the standing ton meatworks. order, the publication of the documents was authorised. ASSENT TO LAWS Messages from His Excellency the Gover- COMMITTEES nor-General were reported, informing the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Senate that he had assented to the following References Committee laws: Report: Government Response Criminal Code Amendment Bill 1997 The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Child Care Legislation Amendment Bill 1998 Pursuant to standing order 166, I present the Productivity Commission Bill 1996 2734 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Productivity Commission (Repeals, Transitional and Substitute member: Senator O’Brien to replace Consequential Amendments) Bill 1996 Senator Collins for the week commencing 9 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 5) 1997 June 1998 Taxation Laws Amendment (Trust Loss and Other Native Title and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Deductions) Bill 1997 Islander Land Fund—Joint Statutory Commit- tee— Social Security Legislation Amendment (Youth Allowance) Bill 1997 Appointed: Senator Reynolds Health Legislation Amendment Bill 1997 Discharged: Senator Bolkus Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legis- Amendment Bill 1997 lation Committee— Ballast Water Research and Development Funding Participating member: Senator Murray for the Levy Bill 1997 consideration of the provisions of the Steve- Charter of Budget Honesty Bill 1996 [No. 2] doring Levy (Collection) Bill 1998 and a related bill. Commonwealth Places (Consequential Amend- ments) Bill 1998 PARLIAMENTARY RETIRING Commonwealth Places (Mirror Taxes) Bill 1998 ALLOWANCES TRUST Commonwealth Places Windfall Tax (Collection) Bill 1998 The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I have received a letter from the Leader of the Commonwealth Places Windfall Tax (Imposition) Bill 1998 Opposition in the Senate nominating Senator Cook to be a member of the Parliamentary Indigenous Education (Supplementary Assistance) Retiring Allowances Trust. Amendment Bill 1997 International Monetary Agreements Amendment Motion (by Senator Newman)—by leave— Bill 1998 agreed to: Medicare Levy Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997 That, in accordance with the provisions of the Medicare Levy Consequential Amendment (Trust Parliamentary Contributory Superannuation Act Loss) Bill 1997 1948, the Senate appoint Senator Cook as a trustee to serve on the Parliamentary Retiring Allowances National Residue Survey Administration Amend- Trust on and from this day in place of Senator Bob ment Bill 1998 Collins. National Residue Survey (Customs) Levy Bill 1998 AUSTRALIAN PRUDENTIAL National Residue Survey (Excise) Levy Bill 1998 REGULATION AUTHORITY BILL Therapeutic Goods Legislation Amendment Bill 1998 1998 Insurance Laws Amendment Bill 1997 AUTHORISED DEPOSIT-TAKING Trade Practices Amendment (Fair Trading) Bill INSTITUTIONS SUPERVISORY LEVY 1997 IMPOSITION BILL 1998 Health Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997 AUTHORISED NON-OPERATING COMMITTEES HOLDING COMPANIES Membership SUPERVISORY LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1998 The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I have received letters from party leaders SUPERANNUATION SUPERVISORY seeking variations to the membership of LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1998 committees. RETIREMENT SAVINGS ACCOUNT Motion (by Senator Newman)—by leave— PROVIDERS SUPERVISORY LEVY agreed to: IMPOSITION BILL 1998 That senators be discharged from and appointed to committees as follows: LIFE INSURANCE SUPERVISORY Economics Legislation Committee— LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1998 Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2735

GENERAL INSURANCE These reforms to the financial system, together with SUPERVISORY LEVY IMPOSITION the wide ranging reform of Australia’s corporate laws to be delivered under the Corporate Law BILL 1998 Economic Reform Program, provide a launching FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS pad for this Government’s drive to make Australia a leading business centre in the Asia-Pacific region. SUPERVISORY LEVIES COLLECTION BILL 1998 In September last year, the Government announced its response to the Financial System Inquiry which FINANCIAL SECTOR REFORM found that Australia’s financial system faces rapid (AMENDMENTS AND TRANSITIONAL change as a result of technological innovation, increasing globalisation and changing business and PROVISIONS) BILL 1998 consumer needs. To ensure that Australia secures the enormous potential benefits of these changes PAYMENT SYSTEMS (REGULATION) and keeps up with the continuing rapid pace of BILL 1998 financial system innovation, our regulatory arrange- ments must be modernised. By encouraging our FINANCIAL SECTOR financial system to achieve world best practice in (SHAREHOLDINGS) BILL 1998 an increasingly competitive international market for financial services, we will see the sector contribut- First Reading ing strongly to employment and growth prospects Bills received from the House of Represen- of the entire Australian economy. The changes will tatives. help provide not just more jobs but better jobs for Australians. Motion (by Senator Newman) agreed to: The Government has accepted the Inquiry’s recom- That these bills may proceed without formalities, mendations that measures consistent with the basic may be taken together and be now read a first time. goals of financial system safety and stability be Bills read a first time. introduced to better focus regulation on its under- lying objectives, to ensure that regulatory arrange- Second Reading ments minimise restraints on new entry and compe- tition, and to ensure that regulation applies in a Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister competitively neutral way across existing and for Social Security) (6.27 p.m.)—I move: newly emerging market sectors. That these bills be now read a second time. A central part of the reform approach is the cre- I seek leave to have the second reading ation of a new organisational framework for the speeches incorporated in Hansard. regulation of the financial system which is objec- tives based, in place of the current institutionally Leave granted. based structure. The speeches read as follows— There are three fundamental regulatory objectives AUSTRALIAN PRUDENTIAL REGULATION for government intervention in the financial system. AUTHORITY BILL 1998 The first is the maintenance of financial stability, including through ensuring a safe and reliable I rise today to introduce a package of landmark payments system. This goal, which has close links legislation to fundamentally reform the Australian with the price stability objective of monetary Financial Sector. The reforms follow the policy policy, is to be the regulatory focus of the Reserve announced in response to the 1997 Financial Bank of Australia. Systems Inquiry chaired by Mr Stan Wallis. The second goal is the provision of specialised This series of bills puts in place a structure de- regulation of conduct, disclosure and dispute signed to improve the efficiency and competitive- resolution for financial service providers and ness of the Australian financial system while financial markets. This regulatory objective is to be preserving its integrity, security and fairness. pursued across the financial system by the Austral- Once implemented, Australia will have a stronger ian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC), regulatory regime designed to better respond to which will be based on the Australian Securities developments in the finance sector, including Commission. globalisation and technological change and the The third objective is the prudential supervision of needs of businesses and consumers. those parts of the financial system which require Once implemented, Australia will be a world leader more intense regulation for safety and stability with best practice, leading edge financial sector reasons. Australia presently has several agencies regulation. providing this form of regulation in a structure that 2736 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 is increasingly outdated and inefficient. To provide tives Standing Committee on Financial Institutions more efficient and competitively neutral regulation and Public Administration, for detailed examin- across all of the prudentially regulated sectors, the ation. APRA will also be expected to appear before Government will establish a single prudential Parliamentary committees on request. regulatory authority replacing all of the existing institutionally-based agencies. APRA will be governed by a nine member Board, whose terms and conditions of appointment will be This bill, the first in a series of financial sector subject to determination by the Remuneration legislative reforms, establishes this single agency, Tribunal. To ensure that there is a close relation- the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority, or ship between APRA, the Reserve Bank and ASIC, APRA. two of APRA’s Board members will come from the APRA will be the prudential regulator of banks and Reserve Bank and one from ASIC. other deposit-taking institutions, life and general The bill provides for the duties and statutory insurance companies, superannuation funds and appointment of the Chief Executive Officer who retirement income accounts. APRA will have will also be an APRA board member. comprehensive powers, including for licensing and regulation of the institutions authorised to provide It also provides for the powers of the Board to set these financial services. In recognition of likely terms and conditions of APRA staff. It is envisaged continuing change in the financial system, provision that in the first instance the bulk of APRA’s staff is made for regulations to accommodate future will come from the Insurance and Superannuation changes in APRA’s regulatory coverage. Commission (ISC) and the Reserve Bank supervi- sion area, together with the staff of State-based In the case of superannuation and retirement regulatory agencies when they join the regulatory savings accounts, APRA will also be responsible scheme. for regulation designed to achieve retirement income objectives. This reflects the close associa- Provision is made for the funding of APRA from tion between regulation for that purpose and monies appropriated following the collection of prudential regulation in these sectors. While APRA levies paid by regulated financial institutions, and will initially take regulatory responsibility for all from charges for certain services. APRA is to have superannuation funds, it is anticipated that this powers to borrow monies, but these are intended responsibility in respect of most excluded superan- only to facilitate its day-to-day operations. nuation funds will later pass to the Australian Secrecy provisions in the bill will ensure the Taxation Office. protection of information and documentation Provision is made for APRA to be accountable obtained as part of the regulation process but allow through an independent Board and to operate under for effective information exchange between the a charter that ensures that the safety objectives of financial sector regulatory bodies, including the prudential regulation are balanced with efficiency, Reserve Bank and ASIC. competition, contestibility and competitive neutrali- The Government envisages that APRA will become ty considerations. fully operational, at the Commonwealth level, on The bill sets out the framework for APRA’s 1 July 1998 or as soon as possible thereafter. In operation. This bill establishes the powers and this context, this bill provides for the changeover functions of APRA while other legislation in this of responsibilities for prudential supervision of the package of bills will provide for the laws and financial sector at the Commonwealth level. regulations to be administered by APRA in relation Transfers of staff and responsibilities for State- to each sector. based institutions may require separate legislation APRA will be an independent regulator, but, like at a later date, once final agreement has been the Reserve Bank, will be subject to an overriding reached with the States and Territories. policy determination power of the Treasurer in the As the Treasurer announced on 17 March 1998, the very rare event of unreconciled disagreement with headquarters of APRA will be based in Sydney to the Government of the day. As a Commonwealth ensure that a close relationship is maintained with authority, it will be accountable to the Government the Reserve Bank, which will continue to have and the Parliament, as provided for under the responsibility for the overall stability of the finan- Commonwealth Authorities and Companies Act cial system. This will facilitate close communica- 1997. In addition, the bill provides for additional tion and operational cooperation between these two reporting requirements in APRA’s annual report, bodies. including a report on any investigations on pruden- tial matters under section 61 of the Banking Act In addition, the Government expects a presence to 1959. Any reports presented to Parliament by be retained by APRA in the major State capitals APRA may, of course, be referred by Parliament and, at least for some considerable time, Canberra, to a Committee, such as the House of Representa- which is the current base of the ISC. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2737

I conclude by noting that this bill provides a vantages for one category of financial institution centrepiece of the proposed new regulatory struc- vis-à-vis another. ture, a specialised regulatory agency focused on The Government’s aim is to establish an adminis- clear regulatory purposes. As the single prudential tratively simple and uniform scheme based on the regulator, APRA will be able to provide flexible, principle of full cost recovery from the institutional efficient, coordinated and consistent regulation categories that are regulated. Separate provision is across the financial sector, particularly for financial made for charges for direct services provided (such service conglomerates which now make up the as licenses), but the major part of the cost of major part of the financial system. It will be in a supervision will be met by an annual levy sufficient position to achieve regulatory excellence, provide to cover the costs of its operations. It will be broader and more enriching career opportunities for broadly similar in nature to the financial charges its staff, and develop close and comprehensive links that building societies, credit unions, insurance with the whole financial system. companies and superannuation funds already pay. Consistent with the need for regulatory flexibility, The banks at present are effectively ‘charged’ APRA is provided with comprehensive powers, through interest forgone on non-callable deposits including over licensing, and generally will develop held by the Reserve Bank. financial standards based on its own policy making With the exception of the banks, the net financial capacities within the framework of laws established effect on the institutions will be small; some for it. institutions may fare better and some worse, and This should ensure that APRA is adaptable and existing cross subsidies favouring some sectors will responsive to the changes occurring in the financial be removed. system, and that its regulatory work always balan- Separate levy bills have been drafted for each ces the objectives of financial safety, efficiency, industry. This will provide the flexibility to deter- competition, contestability and competitive neutrali- mine the levy on each industry according to the ty. actual cost of regulating that particular industry. I commend the bill to the Senate. This bill provides for a levy to be paid by the banks for the first time. The banks will, however, no longer forego a much greater amount of income on non-callable deposits. It is envisaged that once AUTHORISED DEPOSIT-TAKING the deposit-taking institutions currently regulated by INSTITUTIONS SUPERVISORY LEVY the States and Territories come within APRA’s IMPOSITION BILL 1998 jurisdiction, then they too will transfer from their existing cost recovery regime and be subject to the The purpose of this bill, as well as the other levy levy provisions of this bill. bills which form part of this legislative package, is This bill will commence on 1 July 1999 or when to impose levies on those industries that will be the supervision of non-bank deposit-taking institu- prudentially regulated by the Australian Prudential tions is transferred from the States. The other levy Regulation Authority (APRA). These levies will bills will commence on the same day as the fund both APRA and the cost of additional con- Australian Prudential Regulations Authority sumer protection functions in the financial system (APRA). undertaken by the Australian Securities and Invest- ments Commission (ASIC). Essentially, the levies I commend the bill to the Senate. will ensure that the cost of regulation is met by those who benefit from it. These bills allow for a levy to be charged on the entity being supervised according to a percentage AUTHORISED NON-OPERATING HOLDING of the assets held by the entity, subject to minimum COMPANIES SUPERVISORY LEVY and maximum levy amounts. The rates, thresholds IMPOSITION BILL 1998 and limits will be determined by the Treasurer. The purpose of this bill is to impose a levy on This will ensure that the levy paid by each class of authorised non-operating holding companies, entity reflects the actual cost of supervising those consistent with the approach I outlined when I entities and the benefits to entities and their introduced the Authorised Deposit-taking Institu- customers of supervision. tions Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998. At present, the different regulatory authorities have I commend the bill to the Senate. separate funding mechanisms, which have signifi- cant disparities between the nature and level of funding associated with them. These funding disparities can act to create significant cost disad- 2738 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

SUPERANNUATION SUPERVISORY LEVY FINANCIAL SECTOR REFORM IMPOSITION BILL 1998 (AMENDMENTS AND TRANSITIONAL The purpose of this bill is to impose a levy on non- PROVISIONS) BILL 1998 excluded superannuation funds, consistent with the This omnibus bill deals with amendments to a approach I outlined when I introduced the Author- number of Acts to give effect to the new regulatory ised Deposit-taking Institutions Supervisory Levy framework for the financial system being intro- Imposition Bill 1998. duced, consistent with the recommendations of the I commend the bill to the Senate. Financial System Inquiry. These include: RETIREMENT SAVINGS ACCOUNT . the establishment of the Australian Securities and PROVIDERS SUPERVISORY LEVY Investments Commission (ASIC), which is based IMPOSITION BILL 1998 on the Australian Securities Commission; . amendments to the Banking Act to establish the The purpose of this bill is to impose a levy on new regulatory regime in the banking and providers of Retirement Savings Accounts, consis- deposit-taking sector to be administered by the tent with the approach I outlined when I introduced Australian Prudential Regulation Authority the Authorised Deposit-taking Institutions Supervi- (APRA); sory Levy Imposition Bill 1998. . the establishment of the Payments System Board I commend the bill to the Senate. within the Reserve Bank; . the splitting of the responsibility for relevant insurance and superannuation legislation between APRA and ASIC; and LIFE INSURANCE SUPERVISORY LEVY . transitional provisions relating to the establish- IMPOSITION BILL 1998 ment of the new regulatory bodies and the The purpose of this bill is to impose a levy on the associated regulatory reforms. life insurance industry, consistent with the approach The Australian Securities and Investments I outlined when I introduced the Authorised Commission Deposit-taking Institutions Supervisory Levy Imposition Bill 1998. The bill renames the Australian Securities Commis- sion as the Australian Securities and Investments I commend the bill to the Senate. Commission and will result in ASIC being the pre- eminent consumer protection and market integrity regulator across the financial system. In addition to the current corporate regulatory functions of the Australian Securities Commission, ASIC will in the GENERAL INSURANCE SUPERVISORY first instance be taking on consumer protection and LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1998 market integrity in the areas of insurance, superan- The purpose of this bill is to impose a levy on the nuation and aspects of banking and the payments general insurance industry, consistent with the system, and ultimately across the full financial approach I outlined when I introduced the Author- system. ised Deposit-taking Institutions Supervisory Levy Under the current system, responsibility for con- Imposition Bill 1998. sumer protection functions in the financial system I commend the bill to the Senate. is split along institutional lines between a number of Commonwealth and State entities. If this situa- tion is not addressed, globalisation, technological advances and innovations in financial products and distribution mechanisms will result in an increasing FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS SUPERVISORY incidence of regulatory gaps and inconsistencies LEVIES COLLECTION BILL 1998 which are not conducive to efficient competition in SENATE SECOND READING financial markets. The purpose of this bill is to enable the collection Responsibility for consumer protection and market of the levies imposed by each of the separate levy integrity vested in a single entity will enable ASIC bills I have already introduced into the House. to adopt a functional and objective-based regulatory approach, thereby promoting competitive neutrality I commend the bill to the Senate. and permitting better comparability by consumers of different financial products and services. The amalgamation of consumer protection functions in a single regulator is supported by industry and Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2739 consumer groups. There will, of course, be close issued both to banks and non-bank deposit-taking co-operation between ASIC and the Australian institutions; Competition and Consumer Commission. . strengthen and clarify depositor protection The functions relating to insurance and superannua- powers; tion were previously exercised by the Insurance and . facilitate the regulation and hence use of non- Superannuation Commissioner, a position which operating holding company structures by finan- will be abolished with the commencement of this cial conglomerates containing a bank or deposit- bill. The consumer protection functions relating to taking institution; and aspects of banking and the payments system were previously exercised by the Australian Payments . strengthen the regulatory powers of APRA as the System Council, which is also to be disbanded. prudential regulator, giving it powers to make standards and enforce directions broadly similar Included in the functions transferred from the to those now provided under the Financial Insurance and Superannuation Commissioner to Institutions Code (applying to credit unions and ASIC by this bill are functions under the Superan- building societies). nuation (Resolution of Complaints) Act 1993, the Insurance Contracts Act 1984 and the Insurance The proposed single licensing regime will facilitate (Agents and Brokers) Act 1984. increased effective competition, reduce regulatory inconsistencies between institutions conducting In addition, there are some Acts currently adminis- essentially the same deposit-taking business and tered by the Insurance and Superannuation Com- improve efficiency. Over time, consumers should mission (ISC) which contain both prudential and benefit from increased choice, improved quality and market integrity and disclosure requirements and as lower cost products and services. such will need to be split between the two regula- tors, APRA and ASIC. Facilitating the use of non-operating holding company structures will allow conglomerates ASIC will take on regulatory responsibility for greater commercial freedom in selecting their parts of the Life Insurance Act 1995, the Insurance appropriate business structure, thereby potentially Act 1973, the Superannuation Industry (Supervi- lowering business costs, increasing transparency sion) Act 1993 and the Retirement Savings Ac- and reducing barriers to entry, with ongoing counts Act 1997. benefits both to investors and consumers of finan- While the bill effectively transfers responsibility for cial services. The stability and safety of the finan- administration of existing laws from the ISC to cial system will not be compromised by these ASIC and APRA, it does not, except to a very reforms due to the enhanced powers provided to the limited extent, seek to alter the substantive rules prudential regulator. applying in this area. In this regard, the task of rationalising and harmonising the financial system The three key ingredients to ensuring financial regulatory framework with that applying under the stability and depositor protection are: Corporations Law will be undertaken as part of the . strong prudential regulation to lessen risks; second stage of implementation of the Financial . effective intervention to prevent or manage a System Reforms in conjunction with the implemen- crisis; and tation of the Corporate Law Economic Reform Program reforms relating to financial markets and . depositor preference to ensure confidence. investment products. APRA will be able to make standards on prudential In particular, the reforms will introduce a single matters in relation to banks, deposit-taking institu- licensing regime for financial market intermediaries tions and non-operating holding companies of as well as a consistent and comparable disclosure banks or deposit-taking institutions. The standards regime for financial instruments. making power provides APRA with regulatory independence and is flexible, certain and able to be In accordance with the Corporations Agreement, used very quickly in the event of a crisis to prevent the Ministerial Council for Corporations has been contagion effects in the financial system. consulted and has approved the relevant amend- ments to the Australian Securities Commission Act The standards themselves will not be directly 1989 and the Corporations Law. enforceable. Banking Act Amendments APRA will, however, have a power to give a direction to any licensed non-operating holding The package of amendments to the Banking Act company, deposit-taker, or foreign bank branch, if 1959 will: they fail to comply with a prudential standard, . establish a single licensing and prudential regula- regulation or where this is otherwise necessary in tory regime for deposit-taking institutions by the interests of depositors. Failure to comply with providing for authorities under the Act to be such a direction will be an offence. 2740 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

The directions power is intended to facilitate early Payments System Board intervention by APRA to prevent a crisis from emerging and is similar to that now provided to This bill introduces legislation amending the State and Territory regulators of credit unions and Reserve Bank Act 1959 to establish the Payments building societies under the Financial Institutions System Board (PSB) within the Reserve Bank. Code. The PSB will be independent of the Bank’s main Board, which will no longer have powers to make Intervention powers to manage a crisis will also be payment system policies for the Bank. Rather, the improved. The amendments proposed in this bill PSB will operate as the policy making Board of the both clarify the mechanisms by which the pruden- Bank in relation to payments system matters. In tial regulator may take control of a troubled particular it will be responsible for ensuring that the deposit-taking institution, and allow the prudential Bank’s powers are utilised so as to improve the regulator to appoint an administrator for that efficiency of the payments system, to promote purpose. While these statutory management powers competition in the market for payment services and provide the means for control in a crisis, they will to control risk in the financial system. also enhance APRA’s capacity to act in a preventa- tive capacity by using less direct strategies, such as The PSB will operate on a basis that is very similar facilitating the takeover of a troubled institution or to that applying to the main board of the Reserve its business by other sound institutions. In Australia Bank. For example, similar procedures will apply and elsewhere, such action has provided the most for the resolution of any disagreement between the common response in practice to financial distress policies of the Government and the PSB. in deposit-taking entities. The Governor of the Reserve Bank will chair the PSB. It will also include another Reserve Bank These intervention powers are further supplemented member, one from APRA and up to five others. by a new power clarifying that APRA may initiate The PSB and the Reserve Bank will be given the wind-up of an institution that is insolvent and explicit regulatory powers in the payments system. cannot be restored to solvency within a reasonable These powers will be conferred under the Payment period. Such action may prevent further losses from Systems and Netting Bill and the Payment Systems accruing and would therefore be in the best inter- (Regulation) Bill, the latter of which I will intro- ests of depositors. duce shortly. Again, State Supervisory Authorities already have Other Amendments the clear power to wind-up building societies and To prevent excessive compliance costs on building credit unions. societies and credit unions, the bill also amends the Financial Corporations Act 1974 to exempt these Depositor preference is manifest both in depositor institutions from the data reporting requirements priority on winding-up and in APRA’s duty to under that Act when they are regulated under the exercise its powers within Division 2 of the Bank- Banking Act 1959. ing Act in the interests of depositors. These are existing, longstanding provisions in the Act. While The bill also transfers to the Governor of the depositor preference can mean disadvantage for Reserve Bank the Treasurer’s present powers with other creditors, APRA’s intervention powers, respect to categorising registered corporations and particularly the proposed new early intervention exempting corporations. powers, also lessen the risks faced by such other The transitional provisions in the bill preserve the creditors, both by reducing the likelihood of effect of decisions made before the commencement insolvency and increasing the options for resolution of APRA, including by preserving existing approv- in the event of insolvency. als, transferring work in progress to APRA and facilitating the effective transfer of the prudential The bill also provides for the abolition of the regulation of building societies and credit unions to requirement for banks to hold non-callable deposits the Commonwealth, subject to agreement. with the Reserve Bank. These requirements no longer serve a prudential purpose but have been There are also transitional provisions protecting the used to impose a form of regulatory charge. In light accrued entitlements of ISC and Reserve Bank staff of the proposed imposition of levies on all indus- transferring across to APRA. The accrued entitle- tries that will supervised by APRA and consistent ments of the ISC staff will be largely protected with the intention to remove non-neutral treatment through the transfer provisions of section 81C of of deposit-taking entities, the non-callable deposit the Public Service Act 1922. The bill also gives the requirements will be abolished consequent on the Treasurer the power to transfer the assets and transfer to the Commonwealth of regulatory liabilities of the ISC to APRA or ASIC. responsibility for credit unions and building soci- Finally, the bill provides for the repeal of certain eties. Acts, including the Banks (Shareholdings) Act 1972 Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2741 which is replaced by the consolidated Financial This bill proposes a new regulatory framework for Sector (Shareholdings) Bill which I will shortly the payments system. While existing industry self- introduce, and the Insurance and Superannuation regulatory arrangements will be retained wherever Commissioner Act 1987 consequent on the estab- these are performing satisfactorily, the bill provides lishment of APRA. powers to the Reserve Bank to enable it to under- I commend the bill to the Senate. take more direct regulation by designating payment systems as subject to the law where it is considered in the public interest to do so. Once a payment system is designated, the bill PAYMENT SYSTEMS (REGULATION) BILL provides that it may be subject to the imposition of 1998 rules of access for participants on commercial terms, the determination of standards, the giving of This bill details the proposed new regulatory enforceable directions, or the voluntary arbitration framework for the payments system which is being of disputes on technical standards. The develop- introduced consistent with the recommendations of ment of access regimes and standards will be the Financial System Inquiry. Amendments to the undertaken, as far as possible, in conjunction and Reserve Bank Act 1959, as provided for in the consultation with the private sector. Financial Sector Reform (Amendments and Transi- tional Provisions) Bill, provide for the creation of This approach ensures that formal regulation will the Payments System Board (PSB) within the only be imposed on the payments system to the Reserve Bank to provide for policy making in minimum extent necessary to achieve the public relation to the payments system and to increase the interest. accountability of the Reserve Bank in relation to its The bill also provides for a comprehensive regime role in the payments system. of prudential regulation of the store-of-value The payments system plays a central role in the backing purchased payment facilities. This will financial system. The Government has decided to apply to all forms of such facilities, including strengthen, and make more transparent and account- stored value cards, travellers cheques and internet able, the regulation of the payments system under- cash facilities. These are all arrangements whereby taken by the Reserve Bank. Until now, the Reserve payment is made for an instrument which can be Bank has played a substantial regulatory role in the used for making subsequent payments with the payments system as a direct participant and through value available recorded or stored on the instru- the use of its banking powers. ment. Ultimately, the value is redeemable from the holder of the store of value created by the original Payments system regulation is to be separated from purchase of the stored value. Confidence in such the prudential regulation of banks because an systems depends on confidence that the store-of- increasing number of non-bank participants in the value is safe. payments system are emerging to increase competi- tion in the system. More direct means for achieving The bill provides that the holder of the store-of- effective regulation are required for this purpose. value must either be an institution regulated by the Such direct means are also necessary to ensure that Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA) the payments system retains its high standard of under the Banking Act (in which case there is no safety while adapting to the demands of new requirement for further regulation) or otherwise be technologies and globalisation in the payments authorised by the Reserve Bank (in which case system. further regulation may be required). The bill provides powers for the Reserve Bank to impose The Reserve Bank will be the regulator of the necessary regulation. system, given the importance of the payments system to the overall stability of the financial It also enables the Reserve Bank to grant an system and given the central role of the Reserve exemption from the requirement for an authority Bank itself in the core areas of the payments where it is considered appropriate to do so. system, particularly settlement. As with all the I commend the bill to the Senate. other reforms I have announced, this decision highlights the Government’s commitment to encouraging innovation and competition while not, in any way, jeopardising the stability and soundness FINANCIAL SECTOR (SHAREHOLDINGS) of the financial system. BILL 1998 The payments system covers payment instruments This bill streamlines the existing legislation and (such as cash, cheques, and smart cards), their rules governing ownership and acquisitions in the delivery, the exchange or clearance of payment financial system, consistent with the recommen- messages, and the final settlement of value between dations of the Financial System Inquiry. It will intermediaries providing payment services. replace the Banks (Shareholdings) Act 1972 and the 2742 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 relevant parts of the Insurance Acquisitions and SOCIAL SECURITY AND VETERANS’ Takeovers Act 1991. AFFAIRS LEGISLATION The streamlined provisions will be particularly AMENDMENT (PENSION BONUS useful for corporate groups which contain more SCHEME) BILL 1998 than one licensed entity. Common rules will apply to each class of licence, simplifying regulatory STUDENT AND YOUTH ASSISTANCE applications and their assessment. Moreover, AMENDMENT BILL 1998 provision is made for authorisations applying to the non-operating holding companies of financial TELSTRA (TRANSITION TO FULL conglomerates to flow through to all of the mem- PRIVATE OWNERSHIP) BILL 1998 bers of the corporate group. The bill subjects all prudentially regulated financial TAX LAW IMPROVEMENT BILL (No. sector companies to: 1) 1998 . a 15 per cent shareholding limit by any one TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT person (and their associates); or BILL (No. 3) 1998 . such higher percentage as the Treasurer may determine as being in the national interest. COMMONWEALTH REHABILITATION SERVICE This provides for simpler procedures than existing REFORM BILL 1998 laws, a common threshold (which is also that applied under foreign investment policy and law) First Reading and harmonises the treatment of different licence classes. The laws are the administrative responsi- Bills received from the House of Represen- bility of the Treasurer, but provision is made for tatives. delegation to APRA. Delegations may be made, for example, in relation to small financial institutions. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister for Social Security)—I indicate to the Senate At the same time, the effectiveness of the laws is that those bills which have just been an- strengthened along the lines adopted in other recent nounced are being introduced together. After shareholding restriction provisions. Provision is made for the Treasurer to declare a person to have debate on the motion for the second reading ‘practical control’, that is, the power to control the has been adjourned, I will be moving a policies and operations of the financial ins motion to have the bills listed separately on the Notice Paper. I move: titution, regardless of the size of their shareholding. Under such a declaration the person must relinquish That these bills may proceed without formalities, practical control. may be taken together and be now read a first time. The bill also provides for the imposition of condi- Question resolved in the affirmative. tions on approvals of stakes higher than 15 percent, Bills read a first time. for the Treasurer to apply to the Federal Court for remedial orders in respect of unacceptable Second Reading shareholding or practical control situations, for fees to be imposed in respect of applications and for Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister information to be obtained by the Treasurer from for Social Security) (6.29 p.m.)—I table a applicants. revised explanatory memorandum and correc- The law relating to financial sector shareholdings tion relating to the Tax Law Improvement Bill is applied for prudential, competition and other (No. 1) 1998 and a revised explanatory national interest purposes. Acquisitions and mergers memorandum relating to the Taxation Laws in the financial sector, as for other economic Amendment Bill (No. 3) 1998 and move: sectors, separately and additionally remain subject to competition regulation under the Trade Practices That these bills be now read a second time. laws and to foreign investment policy and laws. I seek leave to have the second reading I commend the bill to the Senate. speeches incorporated in Hansard. Debate (on motion by Senator Chris Leave granted. Evans) adjourned. The speeches read as follows— Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2743

SOCIAL SECURITY AND VETERANS’ an informed choice about whether to participate in AFFAIRS LEGISLATION AMENDMENT the scheme. It will also provide them with informa- (PENSION BONUS SCHEME) BILL 1998 tion on how to comply with the scheme’s require- ments. Madam President, by introducing the Pension In the usual case, registered members who satisfy Bonus Scheme, this bill fulfils another government the ‘work test’ will begin to accrue bonus periods. election commitment. This scheme, which comple- Members of the scheme who are 75 years or more ments other government measures for the aged, is can no longer accrue bonus periods. For single designed to provide an incentive for older Austral- people this requires them to undertake gainful work ians to remain in the workforce. The scheme is (defined as work for financial gain or reward) for voluntary and each person can choose to enter the an average of 20 hours per week over 48 weeks per scheme based on their particular circumstances and year (a minimum of 960 hours a year). In addition, preferences. By choosing to work longer, people two-thirds (ie 640) of those 960 hours must relate can add to their individual savings for retirement. to work undertaken in Australia. For members of The scheme will apply to people who qualify for a couple, it will be possible for registered members age pension (or equivalent Veterans’ Affairs to rely on work undertaken by their partners to payments) but who delay their retirement and keep satisfy the work test provided their partners are also working. Eligible customers will receive a tax free members of the scheme. To satisfy the 960 hours lump sum bonus payment when they stop working, requirement, members will have the choice of in addition to commencing to receive their ongoing working longer hours over a short period in each age pension or Veterans’ Affairs equivalent. This year of deferment or working a longer period with measure, by offering people an incentive to keep fewer hours per week. To be paid a bonus, a person working, will assist in reducing the ratio of retired must accrue between 1 and 5 bonus year periods people to working people and will increase the while deferring age pension. Domestic duties in financial well-being of older Australians. This will relation to the person’s place of residence as well be particularly helpful for women and small family as management of family financial investments will business owners. not be treated as gainful work for the purposes of the scheme. The operation of the work test provi- The Scheme will provide for the payment of a sions will be closely monitored to ensure that lump sum bonus, the amount of which will increase contrived arrangements are not put in place to more than proportionally with the number of years circumvent the intent of the legislation. If neces- that a person delays claiming age pension. The sary, further legislative amendment will be taken amount of the bonus payable is calculated by to sure that the integrity of the scheme is not multiplying the annual basic rate of age pension compromised. payable to the person at grant by the bonus percent- age (9.4 per cent for each year). This amount is The scheme reflects the principles already con- then multiplied by the number of years worked (up tained in the current provisions of the Social to a maximum of 5 years). By way of illustration, Security Act 1991 relating to preclusion periods. a single person who delays retirement and con- Accordingly, where a person has disposed of assets tinues to work for 5 years and is subsequently in excess of the disposal limits or where a lump granted age pension at the maximum rate would sum compensation payment is made to the person, receive a tax free lump payments of $21,250 (using the person will not be able to accrue a bonus for the current rate of $9042.80 per annum). If that the relevant preclusion period. Similarly, a person person had delayed retirement for 3 years instead cannot accrue a bonus if the person receives carer of 5 years, the bonus payment would be $7,560.20. pension (or an equivalent Veterans’ Affairs pay- For a couple who continue to work for five years ment) or in certain other limited situations. At the and subsequently are granted age pension at the end of any of these preclusion periods the person maximum rate the combined payment would be will again be able to accrue bonus periods. $35,450 tax free. To assist members in gauging whether they are Madam President, a person must be registered as satisfying the scheme’s requirements, they will be a member of the scheme in order to qualify for a able to request from Centrelink an evidentiary bonus payment. Generally, registration will occur certificate which states that they have satisfied the when a person qualifies for age pension (currently work test over a particular period. Members will be 65 years for men and 61 years for women) or the able to rely on this certificate as evidence that the relevant Department of Veterans’ Affairs payment. work test had been satisfied for that period. Mem- During the registration process, potential members bers will be required to keep certain documents (for will be required to provide information relevant to example their group certificates and income tax the operation of the scheme. The objective of the returns) and maintain a work record. This work registration process is to ensure that people receive record will contain information relevant to the work advice about the scheme, allowing them to make test (such as the days and number of hours worked 2744 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 in a particular period and the names of employers). penalty. The proposed amendments will be a This record will enable members to monitor for significant improvement on the current arrangement themselves whether they are meeting the work test. under which a student can withdraw his or her It will also provide Centrelink with sufficient application, but only before receiving any Financial information to advise members effectively and Supplement payments. A student who does not provide information essential to the determination wish to take advantage of the cooling off period of a person’s entitlement to the bonus. will be able to waive his or her right to withdraw This scheme provides the opportunity for people to the application. This will enable students who are add to their individual savings for retirement. sure about their decision to apply for a Financial Further, it creates choice and flexibility in decisions Supplement loan to commence receiving payments regarding retirement from the workforce and sooner. accessing the age pension. The bill also inserts the prescribed amounts for the Madam President, I commend the bill to the Senate year of income ending on 30 June 1998 which will and present the explanatory memorandum. determine the amount of a person’s accumulated Financial Supplement debt that must be repaid in respect of that year. As 1997-98 is the first asses- sable year in respect of Financial Supplement debts, STUDENT AND YOUTH ASSISTANCE this amendment must be in place before the Aus- AMENDMENT BILL 1998 tralian Taxation Office commences collection of these debts on 1 July 1998. The bill will make a number of amendments to Part 4A of the Student and Youth Assistance Act 1973 The bill will also make a number of minor amend- which provides for the AUSTUDY/ABSTUDY ments to bring the legislation into line with the Financial Supplement scheme. The scheme was program’s administrative arrangements. introduced on 1 January 1993 to give tertiary Legislation is currently before the parliament to students greater flexibility in meeting their financial establish the new social security payment, the needs. The Financial Supplement is a loan which Youth Allowance, in the Social Security Act 1991. is available mainly to tertiary students studying The Youth Allowance will be an integrated income approved courses and eligible to get AUSTUDY or support payment for young people which will be ABSTUDY. These students can trade in $1 of available regardless of whether a person is in AUSTUDY or ABSTUDY (up to a maximum of education, in training, unemployed or sick. It will $3,500) to get $2 as a Financial Supplement loan. replace a number of payments currently available The loans are funded by the Commonwealth Bank under the Social Security Act 1991 or the Student of Australia under an Agreement with the and Youth Assistance Act 1973, including Commonwealth government and are paid on a AUSTUDY. The legislation also makes provision fortnightly basis. for a new austudy payment for students aged 25 Financial Supplement loans are repayable through and over. the taxation system from 1 July in the fifth year The measures in the Student and Youth Assistance after the year to which the loan relates. A person Amendment bill apply to AUSTUDY and who has a Financial Supplement debt may repay ABSTUDY beneficiaries who either have a Finan- his or her loan to the Commonwealth Bank before cial Supplement loan or who are eligible to obtain that time if he or she wishes to do so. The compul- one. Subject to the passage of the Youth Allowance sory repayment arrangements are income contin- legislation, the government will move appropriate gent. That is, Madam President, repayments will amendments to the bill to reflect the impending not commence until a person’s taxable income repeal of the AUSTUDY scheme. reaches a minimum amount prescribed in the Madam President, I commend the bill to the Senate. legislation. The amount of the annual repayment is either 2, 3 or 4 percent of taxable income depend- ing on whether the person’s taxable income exceeds the minimum, intermediate or maximum prescribed TELSTRA (TRANSITION TO FULL PRIVATE amount respectively. The minimum prescribed OWNERSHIP) BILL 1998 amount is set at the annual equivalent of Average Weekly Earnings. When the Telstra (Dilution of Public Ownership) Bill was introduced in April 1996 the opening lines Madam President, most notable of the amendments of the Second Reading Speech were: to be made by the bill is the introduction of a 14 day cooling off period for Financial Supplement "This Bill is about the Government delivering on applications. This will give students who have its promises. applied for a Financial Supplement loan a period "In marked contrast to the approach taken by the of time to reconsider their circumstances and, if former Government in the cases of the Common- they so decide, withdraw their application without wealth Bank, Federal Airports Corporation and Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2745

QANTAS we have sufficient regard for the elector- Offering the remaining Commonwealth holding in ate to be up-front about our intentions. Telstra for sale is a further element of a broader "We made crystal clear in our election policy that telecommunications policy—a policy aimed at if elected we would introduce into Parliament at the giving Australians a world class telecommunica- earliest opportunity legislation to sell one-third of tions industry in terms of technology, pricing, the Commonwealth’s equity in Telstra by way of quality of service and the capacity to sustain a share float." support for national competitive advantage across a wide range of industry sectors. It is also another We delivered on that promise, resulting in an forward step in the march towards the new outstandingly successful public share offer that has millennium. been universally applauded in the community, and which was overwhelmingly supported by the The Opposition can lay claim to have taken the ordinary investors—the mums and dads of Austral- first small step with the enactment of telecommuni- ia. And by the employees of Telstra itself.We are cations legislation in 1989 which established an again delivering on our promises. We promised that independent regulator, some very limited competi- there would be no further sell-down of the tion in defined areas and price controls on reserved Commonwealth interest without the Government services. first getting a mandate from the people at a Federal The Labor Government also took further halting Election. steps in 1991 and 1992 in opening the telecom- Here is the proof of our words. We have faith in munications market to a private national facilities- the good judgement of the Australian people. We based network competitor, incorporating the merged are spelling out the legislative basis on which a Telecom and OTC as a Corporations Law company further sale will take place so they can make fully- and licensing three mobile telecommunications informed choices at the polls. This Bill clearly operators. Back then Labor certainly recognised the provides that, when enacted, the act can only be merits of privatisation in its sale of AUSSAT to proclaimed to come into effect on a date after the form a nucleus for Optus. next Federal Election. Whatever the rhetoric at the time, the incorporation The Australian people’s reaction to the float in of what is now Telstra under Corporations Law was November last year is ample evidence of their an explicit recognition that Telstra was and is first enthusiasm to invest in and benefit directly from and foremost a business. The Universal Service the continuing growth of one of Australia’s largest Obligation was placed in the separate Telecom- companies. Over half a million Australians acquired munications Act where it belongs, because it shares for the first time and 92 per cent of Telstra’s properly applied to the whole industry and not just employees invested in their company. one company. The Telstra float has brought about unprecedented levels of share ownership in the Australian com- This Government has quickened the pace with the munity. Share ownership in Australia has soared to 1997 Telecommunications Act, which established over 40 per cent of the adult population. More than a comprehensive framework for an open, competi- 5.5 million adult Australians are participating tive telecommunications market and with the sale through direct share ownership and through man- of one-third of the equity in Telstra last November. aged funds. Direct share ownership levels are above We are moving in the direction set by Labor’s most other major Western economies, including the initial steps, but more quickly and confidently United Kingdom and Canada. because we have less baggage to carry. The further sale will broaden and deepen that What we are saying is that the business of govern- commitment to investing and sharing in the nation’s ment is not to be in business. The business of future growth. The democratisation of share government is to set the framework within which ownership in Australia will, itself, prove to be an business operates. It is for government to set the engine for economic growth. conditions under which companies compete, to establish and police safeguards for consumers and The benefits will not be restricted to those who to place service obligations on the companies. And take up the opportunity to invest. All Australians to do so free of any need to consider the effect on will benefit from the uses this Government will a government investment in the industry. make of the proceeds of the further sale of shares. The vast bulk of the proceeds will be used to retire Ownership of a telephone company is not a substi- the debt accumulated by past governments. Com- tute for a comprehensive and transparent legislative bined with the proceeds of the initial sale this will framework, which clearly establishes rights and bring about a halving from the June 1996 level of obligations. It is flying in the face of experience in government debt. In addition there will be an Australia and overseas to claim that it is. Indeed, opportunity for some of the proceeds to be directed contemporary experience shows that governmental to providing a social bonus. pursuit of competition and consumer benefits can 2746 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 actually be hindered by ownership responsibilities this Parliament permits it. This Government will and obligations. certainly not be permitting it. For pro-competitive countries like the United This Government is committed to the maintenance, States, Great Britain, Canada and New Zealand enforcement and, where necessary, enhancement of private ownership coupled with robust government- these obligations and rights. imposed consumer and competition safeguards are Within this legislative framework the Government the norm. The shared attributes of their respective has included a number of specific measures to telecommunications regimes are: transparent and ensure that Australians living in rural and remote independent regulation, universal service obliga- regions share in the benefits of improved and tions, easy market entry, powerful laws on anti- cheaper communications.The Minister for Com- competitive conduct, a comprehensive and broad munications, the Information Economy and the Arts access regime, record-keeping rules, tariffing will shortly approve Telstra’s Universal Service requirements, carrier preselection, number portabili- Plan which provides for reduced maximum connec- ty, and non-discriminatory access to underlying tion times and greater general transparency and resources like spectrum, numbers and rights of way. accountability. Australia’s regulatory framework also has all these attributes. Local Call Price Parity Measure Key Community and Regulatory Safeguards A Ministerial Determination under the Telstra Corporation Act 1991 came into effect on 31 This Bill reaffirms the Government’s commitment December 1997 to enable lower prices for untimed to the comprehensive community and regulatory local calls in markets with competition to also be safeguards already enacted in legislation. These shared by consumers in markets without competi- include: tion. (a) a clear universal service obligation to ensure Under the determination, the weighted average that standard telephone services and payphones untimed local call price for residential/charity are reasonably accessible to all people in customers in rural Australia in 1998 is not to Australia on an equitable basis, wherever they exceed the weighted average local call price for reside or carry on business, as required by Part residential/charity customers in metropolitan 7 of the Telecommunications Act 1997; Australia in 1997—a similar rule applies to untimed local call prices for business customers. (b) continued access to untimed local calls which is required by Part 8 of the Telecommunica- It is anticipated that the areas between which tions Act 1997; pricing parity is to be achieved may be refined in any future price control determination as it becomes (c) the customer service guarantee imposed by clearer which are the competitive markets attracting Part 9 of the Telecommunications Act 1997; lower untimed local call prices. (d) special benefits for rural and regional cus- Rebate Scheme for Remote Customers tomers of carriage service providers under sec- tion 226 of the Telecommunications Act 1997; The Telecommunications Act 1997 required the Minister to take all reasonable steps to put regula- (e) a price-cap regime established in Part 6 of the tions in place by 1 January 1998 to give remote Telstra Corporation Act 1991; and customers benefits comparable to untimed local (f) a flexible regulatory structure designed to calls available to customers in standard zones. The stimulate competition in the telecommunica- comparison has regard to the ability to make calls tions market and thus deliver cheaper prices, to essential business and community services on an and new and improved services, to Australian untimed basis. residential and business telecommunications From 1 January 1998, some 17,000 telephone users, as set out in the Telecommunications customers in remote parts of Australia who have no Act 1997 and Parts XIB and XIC of the Trade access to untimed local calls are entitled to a Practices Act 1974. benefit in the form of a rebate of up to $160 in Let me emphasise that these key community and 1998 against each customer’s pastoral call charges regulatory safeguards each place legal obligations on their telephone bills. Telstra’s pastoral rate of 25 on service providers or legally protect the rights of cents for 4.5 minutes applies to calls made to the consumers. They are the law. To claim that these customer’s community service town and within the obligations and/or rights can somehow be eroded extended charging zone. by the sale of shares in Telstra is quite misleading. This is an interim arrangement for 1998. The Where the claim is made by Members of this Telstra network does not presently have the capaci- Parliament it is both dishonest and a cop-out. The ty to cope with the anticipated increase in demand only way these obligations on service providers and which would derive from the extension of untimed rights of consumers can be eroded or removed is if local calls in all remote areas. The Government has Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2747 requested Telstra to report by 30 June 1998 on a Customer Service Guarantee Scheme: Proposed review to determine whether the scheme can be Action improved in 1999 and beyond. This process will The Government places a very high priority on the continue as part of this Government’s genuine need to maintain and improve quality of service. To commitment to improving telecommunications give further effect to this priority, it is now pro- services in the bush, regardless of Telstra’s owner- posed that the Customer Service Guarantee be ship.Draft regulations to enforce the scheme have augmented so that not only do customers receive been prepared and consultations are being held with rebates for poor service but also the regulator is relevant carriage service providers Although Telstra able to require carriage service providers to take is currently the carriage service provider for these remedial action to correct any systemic problems customers, the regulations will apply to all carriage in meeting Customer Service Guarantee scheme service providers. Telstra has developed an imple- performance standards. mentation program to commence shortly, with backdating to 1 January 1998. To achieve this, the Telecommunications Act 1997 will be amended to enable the Australian Com- Telstra is aiming to effectively achieve full digitis- munications Authority to give directions to carriage ation of its local exchange lines by the end of service providers requiring them to take action to 1998. Telstra’s carrier licence includes a condition ensure that Customer Service Guarantee perform- requiring that Telstra makes available to at least 96 ance standards are met. per cent of the Australian population by 31 Decem- ber 1998, a carriage service that provides digital Failure to comply with such a direction will be data capability broadly comparable to that provided enforceable under the act and may incur penalties by a 64 kilobits per second ISDN channel. Telstra of up to $10 million. Exercise of the new direction has indicated that it is on track to meet this licence power will be at the discretion of the Australian condition. Communications Authority (after consultation with the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman) or The Government is proceeding to phaseout the at the direction of the Minister. analogue AMPS mobile phone network by 1 The fundamentals of the Customer Service Guaran- January 2000, because it is locked in contractually tee scheme remain unchanged, and oversight of by Labor’s 1992 decision. This Government is, individual complaints remains with the Telecom- however, concerned that mobile phone users in munications Industry Ombudsman. However, the regional Australia do not lose out. amendment will give the Australian Communica- We will introduce a package of measures designed tions Authority (and the Minister) power to require to ensure that all areas of regional Australia which action by service providers in relation to systemic currently receive mobile coverage will continue to problems which become apparent through com- have reasonably equivalent coverage after 2000. plaints of breaches of Customer Service Guarantee scheme standards. The Australian Communications Authority will report by 30 June 1998 on the likely extent of any In addition, there are two issues being dealt with in short fall in coverage. In those areas where the a revised direction from the Minister to the Austral- Australian Communications Authority finds that ian Communications Authority: there would be no reasonably equivalent coverage, - requiring the Australian Communications either the AMPS service will be retained by Authority to ensure service providers better agreement with the carriers, or the Government will inform and promote to customers their legal impose network rollout obligations on existing rights under the Customer Service Guarantee GSM network operators to provide replacement scheme and put more effort into training of coverage. front-line staff When we introduced the legislation for the one- - setting a sunset date for the current standards third sale in April 1996 we included the Customer at 12 months from their commencement (ie 1 Service Guarantee which requires all carriage January 1999) and asking the Australian service providers, not just Telstra, to meet standards Communications Authority to work with the established by the Australian Communications Australian Communications Industry Forum Authority for connection times, fault repairs and and others in reviewing the standards before keeping of appointments. Enforcement has to date that date with a view to tighter standards been through establishing a legal entitlement to where practicable. compensation for the customer when a breach of Australian Ownership the standards occurs. This usually takes the form of a rebate on the customer’s bill. Telstra has a vital continuing strategic role in the national economy. Australia’s long term national Telstra, for example, paid out some $166,000 in interest therefore demands that it not simply be sold February in respect of some 3700 complaints. off to the highest bidder but that it remains an 2748 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Australian owned and Australian controlled Corpo- The performance of Telstra, its Board and manage- ration. ment is subject to the scrutiny of its private share- Accordingly the Bill amends the Telstra Corpora- holders, whose assessments are reflected in share tion Act 1991 to continue the pre-existing policy prices. Telstra has been the subject of more in- which: tense—and better informed—media and market comment and analysis in the last 12 months than . restricts aggregate foreign ownership to a 35 per it has experienced in its entire history. cent ownership stake in Telstra; and While the Commonwealth retains a majority . restricts individual foreign ownership toa5per interest in the company it will retain special cent ownership stake in Telstra. provisions to monitor financial performance and We are retaining the provisions enacted for the prospects. The Bill provides for the Minister to initial sale which: nominate a date at which the Commonwealth ceases to have a majority interest. At that time the . impose related offence, anti-avoidance and special privileges that the Commonwealth has over enforcement provisions; other shareholders in terms of access to informa- . ensure that the Telstra’s head office, base of tion, except in connection with a sale process, will operations and incorporation remains in Australia be removed. and that its Chairman and the majority of its At the same time the special power contained in directors are Australian citizens; and Part 3 of the Telstra Corporation Act 1991 for the . enable remedial action to be taken where there Minister to give directions to Telstra will be has been a contravention of the ownership limits repealed. When the Commonwealth ceases to have and other requirements, including applications by the majority it would be inappropriate and unfair Telstra or the Minister for Federal Court injunc- for it to promote its interests separately from and tions and special provisions for prosecution of at the expense of the bulk of shareholders. There offences. are now ample powers properly available under the regulatory legislation to ensure that public interest These provisions will not be affected by changes obligations of all carriers are properly delivered. in Telstra’s ownership. For example the Australian Communications Auth- Industry Development Plans ority has a general power under section 581 of the Telecommunications Act 1997 to give directions in Government ownership is not a prerequisite for relation to its telecommunications functions to Telstra to sustain its commercial support for Telstra and other carriage service providers. Australian industry. With regard to the Government’s regulatory role, Telstra and all other licensed telecommunications Telstra will continue to operate under the same carriers are required under the Telecommunications framework of consumer and competition safeguards Act 1997 to produce industry development plans and community service obligations as will apply to for the development in Australia of industries all other carriers. That does not need Government involved in the manufacture, development and ownership to make it work. It does so by force of supply of facilities relating to carrier business; and law. research and development activities relating to such industries. This requirement is aimed at the promo- Sale Provisions tion of long-term strategic relationships between The sale provisions enacted for the sale of one-third carriers and suppliers. of the Commonwealth’s equity interests in Telstra In 1998 Telstra proposes to spend up to $4.4 billion proved effective and robust and are being retained under its Industry Development Plan. Typically, substantially for the further sale. These include: Telstra’s direct spend with Australian small to . appropriation from consolidated revenue for costs medium enterprises has been about 30 per cent of incurred in the sale process; the total spend. . providing for Telstra to assist in the sale process, I note that the Leader of the Opposition has as it did so effectively in the previous sale; recently questioned the efficacy of these arrange- . enabling the Commonwealth to use information ments. Well, they are his arrangements, developed obtained from Telstra for the purposes of the and introduced by him. We supported them. They sale; work. We will continue them while he abandons his own former achievements for imagined short . enabling the offer document for the sale of term political point scoring. equity in Telstra to be registered under the Corporations Law; and The licence requirement for industry development . continuing formal exemptions from stamp duty plans will continue after full privatisation. (although this bill provides a power to make Shareholder Oversight regulations to specify exceptions to the general Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2749

exemption from State and Territory stamp duty Scheme or rolling-over to another superannuation and other taxes in relation to the sale). scheme. The existing act provides the flexibility necessary Consistent with the approach taken in previous to facilitate whatever detailed arrangements for the privatisations, transitional provisions have been sale process are decided by the Government. included to deal with such matters as: long service The mechanism through which the Common- leave; retirement benefits; maternity leave; and wealth’s equity in Telstra can be transferred to safety, rehabilitation and compensation. investors—"Telstra Sale Scheme"—is defined very The bill also contains minor technical amendments broadly, to include not only conventional single to several provisions, makes minor consequential tranche sales, but sales effected through a number changes and removes certain spent provisions. of tranches, or through single tranche sales with Importantly, the bill inserts a new Part 2AA on anti instalment purchase arrangements as well as avoidance containing provisions to prevent Telstra through the use of other market instruments. from engaging in a scheme for the sole or dominant The act includes measures to ensure Telstra, and its purpose of avoiding the application of any provi- directors, will, and can, cooperate with the sale sion of the act. process. The bill clarifies these measures. This removes any legal risk that the Telstra Board could Summary be in conflict with the Corporations Law by This bill is a clear indicator of the Government’s cooperating in the sale of the Commonwealth’s intent to do all in its power to deliver on its equity in Telstra. Moreover, the act enables Telstra election promises. It will enable the implementation to receive fair reimbursement for reasonable costs of a policy which has been clearly enunciated and incurred in providing assistance. It is the which can be debated in the next election cam- Government’s intention to meet those costs in the paign. It will provide substantial benefits to all forthcoming sale processes in order to avoid Australians by strengthening the economy through detriment to the interests of the existing minority the retirement of debt. It will further enhance the shareholders. development of a flexible, modern and competitive The existing act also includes a provision to enable telecommunications industry in this country. the Commonwealth to "opt in" to Chapter 7 of the Corporations Law and thereby allow a prospectus The Opposition can hardly claim that there is some to be registered by the Australian Securities national interest to be protected by retaining the Commission. This means that the Commonwealth company in full public ownership—the former subjects the sale of its equity in Telstra to the same Prime Minister made clear in June 1994 on national rigorous scrutiny that private sector entities face television that there was no essential significance when they seek to raise or sell equity. This ap- in the ownership of Telstra so long as it was proach was adopted for the one-third sale and the subject to the competitive disciplines of the market. Commonwealth’s conduct of that sale has been The current Deputy Leader of the Opposition was widely praised. responsible for the initial legislation that separated Ancillary Legislation regulation of the industry from government owner- ship of Telstra. The current Leader developed that An examination has been made of legislation further when he licensed Optus and privatised affecting Telstra to determine whether amendments AUSSAT, helping to achieve what he called the are necessary or desirable prior to the further ‘net gain’ from privatisation. I quote his words on privatisation and the associated ending of Common- ‘net gain’ from a speech to the National Press Club wealth control. Where appropriate, transitional or on 24 August 1994, "Potentially better services and savings provisions have been inserted. The object lower prices for consumers; stronger enterprises and is to bring Telstra to a position under the law greater competition in our economy; and in the similar to that of any privately-owned comparable broader sense, making government funds available company. It should derive no special benefit for new policy". because of its historical public sector status nor should it carry any unnecessary burdens. Enactment of this bill will continue the process of subjecting Telstra to market disciplines in the The bill makes it clear that, when further Common- knowledge that the safeguards necessary to protect wealth equity is sold Telstra employees will cease national and consumer interests are already fully to be eligible employees for the purposes of the provided in this and other legislation. Superannuation Act 1976. This provision has been included for the sake of transparency. The affected employees will have the option of preserving their rights in the Commonwealth Superannuation 2750 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

TAX LAW IMPROVEMENT BILL (No. 1) A range of other rules with specialised application 1998 have also been rewritten and included in the Bill. These cover the treatment of company bad debts, The Tax Law Improvement Bill (No. 1) 1998 is the intellectual property, horticultural plants, expendi- third instalment of legislation that is progressively ture on protecting the environment and on environ- replacing the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936. mental impact statements, the averaging of primary Last year Parliament enacted the first two instal- producers’ liabilities and evening out the effects of ments of rewritten law. The first instalment estab- above-average special professional income. lished the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 as the Minor policy changes main income tax law. It has a new more logical structure, a flexible and user-friendly numbering The rewritten rules include minor policy changes system and is written in plain language appropriate which will help to make the law simpler, clearer to its audience. and less burdensome for taxpayers. They will do this by: The 1997 Act now contains the core provisions of . replacing impractical rules with ones which the law and most of the rules that apply generally, facilitate compliance; such as the provisions about assessable income and deductions. It also includes some other more spe- . simplifying rules which are unnecessarily com- cialised rules covering such topics as mining and plex; primary production deductions. . deleting unnecessary rules; The main feature of this Bill is the rewritten rules . removing anomalies; and .clarifying ambiguities. about capital gains and losses, colloquially known as the capital gains tax, or simply CGT. Revenue impact The measures in the Bill are expected to have a Capital gains tax small overall cost to revenue but this is well From its inception in 1985, the CGT provisions justified by the better compliance that should flow have been compromised by the unnecessarily from the clarification of obligations. None of its complex approach that was taken to their presen- individual proposals will have a measurable rev- tation and expression. The aim of CGT is to tax as enue effect. income gains made on the disposal of assets and on Date of effect the receipt of certain capital amounts. The Government intends that the Bill will apply Although CGT applies to many transactions that do from the beginning of the 1998-99 income year. not involve the disposal of assets, the existing law squeezes them into its uneasy structure by treating Joint Committee of Public Accounts and Audit each of them as though they did involve such a The Government appreciates the work of the Joint disposal. This has left a complex and extremely Committee of Public Accounts and Audit in confusing system of artificial deeming provisions reviewing the Bill, and its ensuing Report 356. that can confound even experienced professional The Joint Committee’s ongoing involvement in the advisers. review of the Tax Law Improvement Project has The rewrite does away with this ‘deeming been important in ensuring the quality of the approach’ and replaces it with statements which rewrite and public confidence in the rewrite pro- directly describe in clear words the transactions that cess. come within the coverage of CGT. The Government has accepted all of the The key to the rewrite is the breaking up of the law Committee’s recommendations for technical to identify each ‘CGT event’ . The concept of changes to the Bill. The Government has also made disposal is to be limited to where there actually is changes to the Explanatory Memorandum along the a change in ownership of an asset from one person lines recommended by the Committee. to another. Other kinds of transactions that can give The Government is considering other recommenda- rise to a CGT liability are brought together so that tions in Report 356 that go to wider policy matters, the reader can be confident that all circumstances and will provide responses on those other matters that can give rise to a capital gain or loss are as soon as possible. comprehensively listed. The explanatory memorandum includes summaries By bringing together in a coherent way material of all the rewritten areas of the law and explan- that is scattered throughout the old law and by ations of the minor changes to the law that the Bill doing away with unnecessary text, the rewrite contains. supports a more readily gained understanding by taxpayers of the CGT consequences of their I commend the bill to the Senate. decisions. Debate (on motion by Senator Chris Other areas rewritten Evans) adjourned. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2751

Ordered that the bills be listed on the tion for youth allowance recipients aged under Notice Paper as separate orders of the day. 18 from the requirement to be in full-time education or training. Under an amendment COMMITTEES the opposition successfully moved in the Membership debate on the main youth allowance bill, the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Social Security Act would grant the exemp- (Senator Chapman)—A message has been tion if a person ‘is in case management received from the House of Representatives approved by the secretary or, where no case notifying variations in the membership of the management place is available to the person, Joint Statutory Committee on Corporations is suitable for and agrees to undertake case and Securities, the Joint Standing Committee management’. on Migration and the Joint Statutory Commit- The problem with this amendment is that tee on the Australian Security Intelligence case management is defined in the Employ- Organisation. ment Services Act 1994 which ceased to have The message read as follows: effect from 1 May 1998. Rather, a new and different service known as intensive assistance Message no. 575, dated 11 May 1998— is being provided to job seekers under the Corporations and Securities—Joint Statutory employment services market reforms. Committee, Mr Anthony in place of the Speaker. To deal with this problem, our proposal is Migration—Joint Standing Committee, Mr to seek to vary the opposition’s amendment Hicks in place of the Speaker. by extending the exemption to young people Australian Security Intelligence receiving or approved for Commonwealth- Organization—Joint Statutory Committee, funded intensive assistance for job seekers. Mr McArthur in place of Mr Zammit. This amendment does not change the inten- SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION tion of the opposition’s amendment; rather, it simply changes it to reflect the new realities AMENDMENT (YOUTH ALLOWANCE in the employment services market. CONSEQUENTIAL AND RELATED MEASURES) BILL 1998 The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— Consideration resumed. Minister, you did not formally move the amendments, and you need to seek leave to In Committee move them together. The bill. Senator NEWMAN—I seek leave to move The CHAIRMAN—The committee will the amendments together. note that some of the amendments to this bill The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Is have been circulated as requests. This is leave granted? because they expand entitlements which are now to be funded from the standing appropri- Senator Neal—There is a matter which I ation of the Social Security Act. want you to clarify before the amendments are moved. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister for Social Security) (6.32 p.m.)—I table a The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—You supplementary explanatory memorandum can do that after the amendments have been relating to the government amendments and moved. a further supplementary explanatory memo- Senator Neal—I do not really want to grant randum relating to the government requests leave unless I can clarify something. for amendments to be moved to this bill. These memoranda were circulated in the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—In that chamber on 13 May 1998. case, we will separate the two amendments. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Senator NEWMAN—I move: for Social Security) (6.33 p.m)—Government (1) Clause 2, page 2 (after line 32), at the end of amendments Nos 1 and 2 relate to the exemp- the clause, add: 2752 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

(11) Schedule 14 commences immediately suitable for and agrees to undertake inten- after the commencement of subsection sive assistance or case management; or 543A(2A) of the Social Security Act 1991 (inserted in that Act by the Social Securi- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—We ty Legislation Amendment (Youth Allow- now move to government request No. 4, ance) Act 1998). which deals with schedule 9. Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (6.35 Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister p.m.)—Minister, the effect of the amendment for Social Security) (6.36 p.m.)—I move: that you have just moved seems to me quite That the House of Representatives be requested clear in relation to amendment No. 2. I am to make the following amendment: somewhat uncertain about amendment No. 1, (4) Schedule 9, page 227 (after line 3), after Part in that I am not really sure exactly how that 4, insert: operates. Is that just an administrative neces- Part 4A—Amendment relating to child dis- sity to give effect to amendment 2 or does it ability allowance have a different effect? 106A After subparagraph 953(b)(iii) Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister for Social Security) (6.35 p.m.)—It is simply Insert: a commencement date for it. (iiia) the child receiving youth allowance; or Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (6.35 This amendment is beneficial. It is designed p.m.)—I understand it relates to the com- to remedy a minor unintended consequence. mencement date, but does it defer the com- It relates to qualification for child disability mencement date to 1 January 1999? Is that allowance. The intention is that a disabled the effect of it? young person who previously received Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Austudy but who will now receive youth for Social Security) (6.35 p.m.)—The answer allowance can still be a person in respect of to the senator’s question is that the require- whom CDA is payable. Due to an oversight ment to be in case management would start in the youth allowance bill, such a child on 1 January. This is substituting the require- would have missed out on CDA and this ment to be in intensive assistance at the same amendment remedies the oversight. There are time. no financial implications from the amend- Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (6.35 ment; it is merely a technical correction to p.m.)—That is what I thought it was, but I make sure the new youth allowance package did not have the act in front of me so I could of legislation operates as it was intended and not check. That being the case, the opposition within the extent of the original costings for is not opposed to these amendments. the bill. Amendment agreed to. Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (6.37 p.m.)—The opposition will be supporting this Amendment (by Senator Newman) agreed amendment. I am interested in the minister to: saying that there are no financial implications. (2) Page 334 (after line 3), at the end of the bill, I would have thought that if, previously, add: without this amendment, the parents of chil- Schedule 14—Amendment of the Social dren receiving Austudy could not receive the Security Act 1991 relating to minimum age for child disability allowance then there would youth allowance have been some savings. There must, accord- 1 Paragraph 543A(2A)(p) ingly, be a change by allowing them to Repeal the paragraph, substitute: receive both again. (p) is receiving Commonwealth funded inten- Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister sive assistance for jobseekers or State, Territory or community provided case for Social Security) (6.38 p.m.)—They could management approved by the Secretary or, receive both before. It was assumed by all of where no intensive assistance or case man- us that they were still going to do that and agement place is available to the person, is then it was found that they had been disen- Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2753 franchised as to the CDA. The costings had Person who is not a long term income support been expected to be the same. student Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (6.38 1067L-B2 If the person is not a long term p.m.)—So there has been a change, but it was income support student (see section 1067K), work out whether the per- never calculated because the effect of it was son: not realised. (a) is a member of a couple (see section Request agreed to. 4); and Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (6.38 (b) has a dependent child (see subsections p.m.)—I move: 5(2) to (9)). The House of Representatives be requested to The person’s maximum basic rate is the amount make the following amendment: in column 3 of the table that corresponds to the (1) Schedule 1, item 7, page 90 (lines 8 to 19), person’s situation as described in column 2 of omit point 1067L-B2, substitute: the table.

Table BA—Maximum basic rates (persons who are not long term income support students) Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Item Person’s situation Rate 1 Does not have a dependent child $265.50 2 Has a dependent child and is not a member of a couple $347.80 3 Has a dependent child and is a member of a couple $291.60 Note: The rates in column 3 are indexed annually in line with CPI increases (see sections 1191 to 1194).

Opposition request No. 1, which has been rate anomaly in relation to the Austudy circulated, has the following effect. Under the payment should be changed. I noted the government’s proposed point 1067L-B2, a comments by Senator Carr earlier in this person who is not a long-term income support debate today when he said that the at-home student, who does not have a dependent child rate in this circumstance was a retrospective and who lives at home, has a maximum view. Austudy payment of $174 per fortnight. Such a student in exactly the same circumstances While I agree with the ALP’s position and but who does not live at home has a maxi- will be supporting it, I think it was interesting mum rate of $265.50 per fortnight. The effect that he noted that it was a retrospective view. of our request for removing paragraph (a) of The government was not necessarily harking proposed point 1067L-B2, which refers to a back to an earlier era—be it the 1950s, the student living at home, removes the lesser 1960s or even the 1970s—but I believe that level of payment. Essentially, the effect of our the change was actually instituted in the request would be to allow that person over the 1990s by the former government. However, age of 25 years living at home to receive the the Democrats will be supporting the amend- same maximum payment as a person living ment before us. away from home. I understand that the Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) government has already indicated that it will (6.41 p.m.)—There is going to be further not oppose the request. debate on the issue of 24- and 25-year-olds Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- later on. I think some deals have been done tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian and some compromises have been reached in Democrats) (6.40 p.m.)—The Democrats are the course of preparing for this debate. In the supporting the amendment before us, but we end, we might have a situation where we have have comparable amendments, as I believe do discrimination on the basis of star signs—with the Greens (WA). A number of us have Sagittarians not getting assistance and Capri- pointed out in the chamber that the at-home corns getting assistance. Perhaps we will have 2754 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 equal opportunity cases based on unfair on their existing meagre payments, would find discrimination based on star signs, with one themselves kicked in the teeth as a result of month or one day making all the difference that $90 per fortnight reduction, which would between one person and another. cause confusion, anxiety and real financial The reality is not particularly good. The hardship. debate will define itself a little later on but, But this government itself obviously in effect, quite a lot of people will miss out. recognises that those aged over 25 years are A number of people in our society will financially independent from their parents. continue to say that the deals that have been The Greens (WA) argued vigorously during reached as a result of this legislation were the debate on the youth allowance bill that unfair in the main, however, we will agree to people should be considered independent at this particular amendment. 18 for the purpose of student assistance, as Request agreed to. they are under just about every other law in society. Nevertheless, even using the Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister government’s definition of ‘independence at for Social Security) (6.43 p.m.)—It may help the age of 25’, the logic of applying a differ- the chamber to know at this stage that the ent rate of payment to those who happen to next six amendments—one from the Demo- live at home is entirely inconsistent. crats and five from the opposition—are agreed to by the government. Let us look at whom we are considering Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) whacking with this reduction in payment. For (6.43 p.m.)—We have not withdrawn or many of those people their parents may be moved our amendments, so I can still speak elderly. They might be on an age pension or to them. living on superannuation payments. Perhaps they can put their hands in their pockets—I The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—That do not think so. What sense is there in reduc- is correct. ing the amount they can contribute to the Senator MARGETTS—The Greens re- family home? We might have a situation quests Nos 1 and 2 on sheet 979 attempted to where they will have to go cap in hand to remove the distinction between living at home elderly parents as of 1 July. We would like to and living away from home for the purposes amend this bill to remove the artificial dis- of determining the maximum rate of payment tinction between over-25s living at home and for a person over the age of 25. Later amend- those living away from home as well as ments sought to achieve this for the new 25- amending the ‘yet to be proclaimed’ youth and-over Austudy payment. Currently, about allowance bill. It might well be the case that 1,000 students aged over 25 live with their we do not have to move our ‘break glass in parents. case of emergency’ grandfathering amend- The current Austudy system, quite sensibly, ments. We will look carefully at the out- makes no demarcation between over-25s comes of this bill to see whether that is going living away home and those remaining at to be necessary. home. The current maximum rate for these Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- students—providing they are not long-term tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian income support students, in which case they Democrats) (6.47 p.m.)—On that point I receive more—is $265.39. However, under might ask the minister what rationale the the provisions of this consequential bill, from government puts forward for making the 1 July their payment will be reduced to distinction to which Senator Margetts just $174.80 literally overnight. Most of these referred—the notion that people over 25 people have no idea that such a change is would somehow not be eligible and those coming. In fact, no-one apart from a few under 25 would be in relation to access to the people in the Department of Social Security living allowance. I am wondering if there is knew this themselves until March this year. information that the government can show to A lot of people, obviously tightly budgeting the chamber that somehow a single adult over Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2755 the age of 25 is not deserving of a living Progress reported. allowance. Why is there that distinction in the ages? DOCUMENTS The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tor Chapman)—Senator Stott Despoja, would Commission you care to move Democrat amendment No. 1? I think the minister might respond to Senator COONEY (Victoria) (6.51 p.m.)— queries at the end of the process. I move: Senator STOTT DESPOJA—That is fine. That the Senate take note of the document. I am happy to move amendment No. 1 on Looking through this document, I see it is a sheet 982. I move: report prepared by Justice Peter Gray and is (1) Schedule 1, item 6, page 14 (line 4), at the his last report as Aboriginal Land Commis- end of subsection (4), add "but the Secretary sioner. I note in correspondence at the back may approve, in particular cases, an allowable of this report that the manner of His Honour’s study time of up to four times the minimum sending off from his work as a commissioner period in which it is possible to complete the course as a full-time student". was not as gracious as it may have been. There was a difference between him and the I understand the minister is going to indicate government about the interpretation of a support for the amendment; is that right? particular section of the relevant act. That is Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister a pity because Justice Gray is a person of for Social Security) (6.48 p.m.)—The request great legal ability—he is a great judge—and that was just passed by the chamber was in of undoubted integrity. It is a pity that there virtually the same form as the Democrats- was that hiccup, if you like, in his final days GWA amendment, which I would have as Aboriginal Land Commissioner. thought was no longer relevant. Mr Justice Gray was respected highly when Senator Margetts—We are not talking he was a barrister at the Melbourne bar. I about the requests; we are talking about the know he was highly respected as a judge. I amendments. We are on to the next page. commend him on the work he did in the Senator Newman—Therefore you need to Office of the Aboriginal Land Commissioner. move your amendment, don’t you? I note that this report was produced by the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commis- Senator Stott Despoja, my understanding was sion. That body has not fared as well out of the question that you asked of the minister the budget as it might. The Aboriginal and related to the previous requests and not to Torres Strait Islander Commission was estab- your current amendment. lished on the initiative of the Hon. Gerry Hand when he was minister for Aboriginal Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- affairs. tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian Democrats) (6.49 p.m.)—Yes, that is right. In The concept he had of ATSIC was that it the same way that Senator Margetts com- should take the initiative as far as possible— mented on the issue of the age distinction and and consistent with the constitution and the the at-home rate, I was asking a question in sort of nation we are—in developing Aborigi- the committee stage. You then asked me to nal policy. This body is less than 10 years move my amendment, which does relate to a old. I would suggest that it still needs time to different issue, and I just moved that. I am take on board all that needs to be taken on happy to wait for an answer to my question board to make it a near perfect body. To start on a much broader issue in another stage of to take certain powers away from it at this the committee process. I am looking for stage I think is poor policy. It is not the sort clarification from the minister that she would of policy that this body deserves to have be supporting it, and then I would like to applied to it. In any event, that is what has briefly address that amendment. happened. 2756 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

There are two concerns that this report like to draw to the attention of the Senate the raised. The first is that Mr Justice Gray was weight of international agreement on the sent away—I am not saying that his commis- rights and responsibilities of education. The sion was in any way cut off—perhaps less Director-General of UNESCO, Frederico graciously than he might have been. The Mayor, commenting on 50 years of education, second is that we must give the Aboriginal stated: and Torres Strait Islander Commission the full The real and urgent threats to peace and interna- support that it deserves and the time it needs tional security are exclusion, poverty and under- to mature into the sort of body it is going to development and all the woes that accompany become if it is not stymied in its efforts. them. Yet, yesterday as today, education is among the best responses—sometimes the only response Question resolved in the affirmative. that society has to offer: education for all, educa- Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation tion for development, education for justice and liberty and peace. Senator COONEY (Victoria) (6.56 p.m.)— I move: I have spoken on many occasions about the government induced decline in the value of That the Senate take note of the document. Australian education. Here I would like to set It would be a shame to see this document go out the basic obligations that I believe Aus- through without being noted. It is an attrac- tralia has as a member of the global family tively set out document. It sets out the stra- and the obligations we have undertaken for tegic direction for the Council for Aboriginal education locally and globally. Fifty years Reconciliation. The headings in the docu- after UNESCO was established is an appropri- ments are: ‘Goal 1: Documents’, ‘Goal 2: ate time to reflect on what has been achieved Partnerships’, and ‘Goal 3: People’s and restate the fundamental education right. Movement’. It also shows the members of the This is particularly important after another Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation. It budget which has not redressed the savage shows the strength of that body and the need cuts we have seen to education across Aus- for us as a parliament to take account of what tralia. it does. It is proper that we take account of In addition, the government has pursued us this document. I seek leave to continue my all with the need for change and flexibility. In remarks later. some cases they have actually imposed Leave granted; debate adjourned. change upon our community. In every situa- UNESCO General Conference: tion education is the best means and prepara- Australian Delegation Report tion for dealing with unknown challenges. Unfortunately, this government has not main- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- tained the same commitment to education, and tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian that is education at all levels from primary, Democrats) (6.58 p.m.)—I move: secondary and post secondary, right through That the Senate take note of the document. to adult education and retraining. This report sets out the results of the 29th Australia does have an accepted commit- meeting of UNESCO and Australia’s partici- ment to education as a signatory to the Uni- pation in that conference. A common frame versal Declaration of Human Rights. This of reference before this particular conference declaration made education a right for every- was the issue of globalty—that is an interest- one. By this declaration we recognise: firstly, ing new word. In particular, the conference that education shall be free, that at least in the called attention to the hundreds of millions of elementary and fundamental stages, element- humans who are being denied access to ary education shall be compulsory, that education. technical and professional education shall be I think it is particularly appropriate to focus made generally available and that higher on education tonight as students all over the education should be equally accessible to all country are participating in a candlelight vigil on the basis of merit; and, secondly, that to protest against funding cuts. I would also education shall be directed to the full devel- Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2757 opment of the human personality and to the The irony is that many of these cuts need strengthening of respect for human rights and not have taken place, as we have seen in the fundamental freedoms. It shall promote last 24 hours. The budget surplus is indeed understanding, tolerance and friendship among plentiful and we are looking at something like all nations, racial or religious groups, and $3 billion worth of cuts which should never shall further the activities of the United have been made, and many groups should not Nations for the maintenance of peace. have been affected as adversely and as nega- UNESCO was established to put these very tively as they have been, including the educa- rights into effect. In 1946 the constitution of tion sector. I seek leave to continue my UNESCO actually proclaimed: remarks later, as I could speak on this issue for a longer period of time. But I do wish to The State Parties [believe] in full and equal oppor- commend to honourable senators the tunities for education for all. UNESCO report; it is one worth reading...... Leave granted; debate adjourned. Give fresh impulse to popular education and to the spread of culture . . . by instituting collaboration Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty among the nations to advance the ideal of equality Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) of educational opportunities without regard to race, (7.03 p.m.)—I move: sex or any distinctions, economic or social. That the Senate take note of the document. These are visionary statements and they are worthy of fulfilment. There is a range of It is an important day for issues of peace and international agreements that have reasserted disarmament, as I mentioned earlier. We have the basic rights to education. They include been asked today to respond to the multilater- among many—and I have at least nine, but I al treaty, the comprehensive test ban treaty, do not think I can speak fast enough to signed in September 1996. I was reminded of include them—declarations such as the Decla- the fact that it is very relevant to what has ration of the Right of the Child adopted by happened in the last few days or what has the General Assembly in November 1959, been reported to have happened in the last which actually states: few days in relation to underground testing from India. Nobody will put their hand up The child is entitled to receive education, which and say that what India has undertaken is ac- shall be free and compulsory. ceptable in this day and age. There are a number of other international I am very concerned, however, at the role covenants and conventions on the rights of Australia may have taken in what has hap- various groups, including children, but I will pened over the last few days. The role goes not read them out. There is a significant array back to the situation at that time in 1996 of international consensus on the issue of when Australia was involved in various education. negotiations on peace and disarmament, The message to the government, any including not just the comprehensive test ban government, is clear: education is and should treaty but the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. be a top priority. It should not be massively I looked back to question 190 that I asked the cut in the way that we have seen in recent Minister representing the Minister for Foreign budgets, including massive cuts to university Affairs, Senator Hill, on 31 October 1996. operating grants, cuts which total around six Part of that question states: per cent over four years. If we factor in NTU Does the current CTBT text contain an entry into wage claims, those cuts are much more force provision that requires all 44 named count- excessive than that, and a number of cuts ries, including India, Pakistan and Israel, to sign the have seen a sharp decline in education in this treaty before it enters into force... country. Cuts to student assistance, like The answer states: Austudy and Abstudy, have made it more The CTBT adopted by the United Nations General difficult for many people to undertake or to Assembly and opened for signature on 24 Septem- continue study. ber 1996 will enter into force 180 days after the 2758 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 date of deposit of the instruments of ratification by in the world really do move towards getting all 44 states listed in the treaty, including the five rid of their own weapons of mass destruction nuclear weapon states and India, Pakistan and so that we can start putting pressure on the Israel, but in no case earlier than two years after the treaty’s opening for signature. peripheral states and the threshold states to do the same. I also asked: Senator COONEY (Victoria) (7.08 p.m.)— . . . has India refused to sign the treaty due to the lack of a timetable for disarmament or timetable for I would like to add some remarks to those negotiations for disarmament. already spoken by Senator Margetts. The issue of nuclear weapons is obviously a very What was referred to there was the timetable difficult one. Indeed, Madam Acting Deputy for those nuclear weapon states, those that President Reynolds, as you would know, in consider themselves different from anywhere the past it has been a very emotional issue else that they can insist the rest of the world indeed. It still is, although perhaps not as not develop nuclear weapons or not move emotional as it once was. Clearly, the fewer toward the development of nuclear weapons weapons that there are in the world, whether but are quite happy to get heavy handed with nuclear or otherwise, the better it is. We have other countries, including Iraq, if they feel it found with our own gun policy in Australia is right for them to do so and are also quite that the fewer guns there are the better it is. happy to hold on to their own arsenal and War is a very destructive exercise no matter weapons of mass destruction. how it is conducted. I see that Senator In this particular case—did India refuse to McGauran is in the chamber. He has recently sign due to that lack of a timetable for dis- seen places where there has been war, not armament?—the answer was yes. If we have with nuclear weapons but with more conven- a situation where 44 named countries have to tional ones. He would bear out that that sign before the treaty becomes operative, that leaves a most destructive legacy. means that we have a comprehensive test ban There is criticism to be made, as Senator treaty which cannot become operative until Margetts has said. I think it was Harold those other countries like the United States, Macmillan who once said that it was better to Britain and France agree to actually move jaw-jaw than war-war. That was a long time towards their own disarmament and not sit in ago, probably before Senator Forshaw was their own nuclear towers and insist that conscious of what was going on in the world, everyone else in the world move towards and before you were too, Madam Acting weapons of mass destruction. Deputy President. Unfortunately, in terms of The role that Australia played, I believe, age, I can remember it quite clearly. Be that was to play the game of the major weapons as it may, a comprehensive nuclear test ban powers, to talk countries from the non-aligned treaty is a good thing. With all its faults, it is countries, including Indonesia, into signing a good thing. The more the world talks—we the nuclear non-proliferation treaty even talk about a global village and about a though it meant the comprehensive test ban globalisation of the economy, and all of that treaty therefore was in danger of becoming is true—about banning weapons and the more inoperative, and that is exactly what we see. we talk about banning war the more likely it We can today say that India never signed the is that we will avoid it. comprehensive test ban treaty. That is true. I A lot of the heat has gone out of the world am not saying that what they did was right; since the end of the Cold War, although what it is not and it was not. However, it could has been substituted for that has been a lot have been foreseen. more battles amongst nations on the basis of I believe Australia played a role that we nationality than there used to be. It would be cannot afford to be proud of. I think we have a terrible thing if that sort of war was fought to move in the future not only towards having in any way by nuclear weapons. Although the Canberra conventions but also towards trying emotion that used to be there has modified a to make sure that those nuclear weapon states bit because we do not have the two super Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2759 powers—we only have one—the issue of one billion people—by 2005. That is roughly nuclear weapons is still a very great issue 20 per cent of the world’s population. given the fact that nations are still fighting each other. The rate of the expansion of this new technology and the commerce that it will India has been criticised, and justifiably so. drive is phenomenal. Just four years ago e- They have said, ‘As soon as we’ve tested commerce usage of the Internet in the United these weapons, we’re happy to sign a treaty States was being debated as they tried to work and then of course we’ll never use them,’ but out what sorts of protocols and procedures Pakistan and other countries get worried about could be used to trade in goods and services that. It is important that we have a compre- over the Internet. At that time the whole thing hensive nuclear test ban treaty, as was done was a relatively new concept. How things in New York on 10 December 1996. It is not have changed in just a very short time. Aus- going to bring perfection and it is not going tralia is really trying to catch up with this to bring that peace we want, but it is better to very rapidly developing global phenomenon. have the process than not. Recently in Canberra was the E-commerce Question resolved in the affirmative. Summit, organised by Minister Alston’s ADJOURNMENT Office of the Information Economy. It was held here several weeks ago in Parliament The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT House and it drew a very impressive group of (Senator Reynolds)—Order! There being no people from business, government and con- further consideration of government docu- sumer groups, industrial leaders and people ments, I propose the question: concerned with the regulation of industry. The That the Senate do now adjourn. summit was a very important step to get Information Technology Australian business ready for e-commerce, ready to compete in this new information Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) economy. Australia cannot afford, given its (7.12 p.m.)—I rise tonight on a topic which rapid development, to take a wait and see ap- is of longstanding interest to me, and that is proach. We need to be gearing up very the area of information technology. Tonight rapidly for this new economic revolution that I intend to continue a series of speeches on a is now flowing over the whole world. theme that I started in the last session. We are indeed at the start of the information revolu- We can look to the US for the very broad tion, a revolution as important to change in effect of the information revolution, and it the economy and in society as the Industrial already points the way to Australia’s econom- Revolution was 170 years ago. One of the ic future. In the US, the Internet accounts for large emerging factors in this revolution that one-third of real growth in their economy. is coming about at a breathtaking pace at the Information technology industries have grown moment is the whole world of e-commerce. from four per cent to eight per cent of the US economy in the last decade. It has created E-commerce, or electronic commerce, is the seven million jobs in information technology selling of goods and services over the and related industry. Internet. World wide this is expected to boom from $6 billion, which is the most recent The interesting thing is that it is creating figure in the international economy, to more high wage jobs. The average wage, for exam- than $300 billion in the year 2002. What is ple, in the United States is $28,000. In the driving this electronic commerce is the incred- information technology industry, the average ibly rapid development of the Internet which, wage is $44,000. So there is some very good in terms of e-commerce usage, is doubling news in the type of economy that is develop- every 100 days world wide. People on the ing at this time. Some 45 per cent of business Internet who will have access to this electron- investment in the United States at the moment ic commerce are expected to increase by is in information technology, and it is up from tenfold—that is, from 100 million people to three per cent just 15 years ago. The US 2760 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 believes the importance of this will tend to respond to the changes that are needed to let accelerate. this e-commerce sector grow at a pace at At the E-commerce Summit, we had Mr Ira which it is capable of growing. Magaziner, who is the special adviser to The second principle is that the whole area President Clinton on e-commerce. He had should be market driven. It should not be a some very interesting things to tell us about regulated area. Regulation is hard obviously the way in which this is developing in the not only because of its international dimen- United States currently. It is believed that sions but also because of the convergence of business to business electronic commerce will the technologies involved in e-commerce and grow from $6 billion per annum to $300 the way in which our structures currently tend billion per annum by the year 2002. Retailing to segment different markets which in the e- is one of the big areas that will be subject to commerce world will all merge into one. rapid change in the immediate future. Other things in the technology area are Already sales of things like books, clothing changing as well. Where there were certain and real estate are gaining very rapid accept- limits, particularly created by bandwidth on ance in this e-commerce world, but there will the Internet, new technology means that all be a rapidly expanding range of products and these barriers will come down as well. His services developed and delivered digitally claim is that government, in its regulations, from this point on. Things like software, can get in the way. music, movies, video games, insurance poli- The third principle is that any government cies, banking, consulting services, education, intervention that does exist should be medical diagnostic services and news services minimal. The fourth principle is the need to are just some of the things that will be trans- take heed of the medium that we are dealing ported digitally in this new world of electron- with. We are not dealing just with big busi- ic commerce. Significantly, Ira Magaziner nesses often in this e-commerce world. We said that he believed that this will drive world are dealing with a whole range of smaller economic growth for the next 25 years. If he organisations in a very decentralised structure. is right, the e-commerce revolution will create So, to have this whole market work properly, the largest and longest boom in world eco- you need as much flexibility to allow smaller nomic history. players in a wide range of sites to be able to Magaziner said that the United States had develop their businesses with as little hind- five principles it used when setting its policy rance as possible. in examining the information economy. These are principles which Australians should His final principle relating to e-commerce consider very carefully and should be debat- was related to its global nature and the need ing very vigorously at this point in time. to remove, particularly between countries, not Some of these principles, if put into place, only tariff but also non-tariff trade barriers. would certainly have some very big upsides He sees that the Internet and its trade should economically, but socially, for some of the be free of any customs duties—and he advo- groups in our economy, there could be some cates world trade organisations making elec- fairly significant downsides. We are moving tronic transmissions free of customs duty— into a totally new world, and we are moving that any taxation should be tax neutral and into it very rapidly. So this debate, in terms that no discriminatory tax should be placed of these principles, should occur right now. against the Internet. I want to outline the five principles that he What I have outlined to date indicates a said were driving Internet policy in the United number of things about e-commerce which States. The first principle is that the private should raise questions in people’s minds. sector should lead Internet growth. They have Seeing I am nearly out of time, I will con- found that government structures in this new tinue the discussion of those principles tomor- world where change is so rapid often get in row. These are things that should not necessa- the way and do not have the flexibility to rily be just accepted. In this new information Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2761 age, we need to respond in an appropriate organisations, such as trade unions, or to way. (Time expired) follow their religious beliefs in recognised free churches and religious organisations. If Waterfront the symbolism and the comparisons with the Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) anti-democratic regimes of other parts of the (7.22 p.m.)—They came like thieves in the world, particularly Europe, are something that night. They came with balaclavas to hide their Senator McGauran does not want to hear faces. They came with weapons and they about, then certainly it demonstrates how came with vicious dogs. This is a scene that sensitive he is on this issue. has been repeated in history many, many times. Fortunately, our country has never had The liberalisation of Eastern Europe—I will to witness it, until recently. It is the sort of explain this for Senator McGauran’s benefit, thing that happened in Europe during the but I am sure he knows this—actually began 1940s. It is the sort of thing that happened in with the struggle of a trade union movement, the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s in Eastern Eu- Solidarity, to establish itself in Poland as a rope. It is what happened in 1956 in Hungary. legitimate organisation. Similarly, the apar- It is what happened in 1968 in Czechoslova- theid regime of South Africa—which was kia. It is what happened in Argentina and supported by many people who preceded Chile. It is what happened in China. It is the people from Senator McGauran’s party and symbol of oppression of people’s rights and, this government—was defeated because of sadly, just prior to Easter, it happened here on organisations like COSATU, the trade union the ports around Australia. movement in that country that struggled so long against oppression. The symbolism is ironic. Guard dogs, men in balaclavas, weapons in the middle of the Similarly, we still have these struggles night. And it happened right on the eve of going on today—in Indonesia, for instance. It Easter, the time when most democratic was not so long ago that even in the greatest nations in the world celebrate one of the most democracy in the world—the United States— significant events in the history of Christian- the farm workers had to struggle to survive. ity, the death and resurrection of Christ. On I can recall in my early days in the trade this occasion, the irony is quite significant union movement in this country in the 1970s because what we had was the employer, reading about and then subsequently visiting Patrick, on the eve of the Easter holidays and America to meet Cesar Chavez. Cesar Chavez with the full support and connivance of the started an organisation for the US farm John Howard government, engaging in an workers, which the conservative government illegal and deceitful action to destroy a trade in California at that time and the major union. employers in the farming industry— Senator McGauran—Make your biblical particularly the fruit industry—set out to de- comparisons. stroy. Trade union officials were murdered because they stood up for the right of an Senator FORSHAW—I have referred to organisation to exist and enrol workers. history. I have referred to the importance of trade unions in history and I will refer to the The situation is this. What we have here is importance of religious organisations in nowhere near the excesses that occurred then, history, because what Senator McGauran and I accept that. But, unfortunately, what we refuses to accept and understand is that, in all have here is a government that is so hell-bent democratic societies throughout history, it is on destroying a trade union that it is prepared often the trade union movement and the to support the sending in, as I said, of men in organised churches that are first attacked balaclavas in the middle of the night with whenever despots or tyrants take over. Why guard dogs in order to sack workers. Many are they attacked? They are attacked because workers were sacked that night. In total, 2,000 they represent the fundamental right of human workers working on the waterfront were beings to assemble peacefully in collective dismissed. 2762 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Members of the government have claimed governments ignore the fundamental rights of that they are not setting out to destroy a trade their citizens as this government has done. In union, but listen to the rhetoric. Go back and its ideological obsession to set out to destroy study the words they have used. In the the Maritime Union of Australia, it has months leading up to this event, we had Peter ignored the fundamental rights of those Reith continuously standing up in the parlia- people, and hundreds upon hundreds of ment and everywhere else labelling every innocent people and their families have been person who worked on the waterfront as a affected. greedy thug, as a greedy, lazy bludger. They John Howard and Peter Reith should wake were the words that Peter Reith used time and up, understand their obligation to the Austral- time and time again to talk about decent ian community and set about negotiating the Australian people. No proof. No evidence. He issue of waterfront reform in a democratic just categorised them all as greedy, lazy way, and not have to rely upon the methods bludgers, turned them into scapegoats and of despots and tyrants. tried to turn the rest of the Australian com- munity against them. He tried to blame them Higher Education for all of the economic ills of this country. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- That is what they have said, and they have tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian continued to do it. They tried to make out by Democrats) (7.32 p.m.)—I acknowledge distorting the figures that they all earned Senator Forshaw’s comments when he talked $90,000 a year and did little or no work. about some of the great events of this century I happen to know a person who worked on being brought about by the union movement. the waterfront. I know a few, but I know one I referred earlier to education and should in particular who is a neighbour of mine. I acknowledge tonight the National Union of will not name him because I do not particular- Students. Members of the student union are ly want to get into those sorts of personal in the gallery this evening and hopefully are details, but I know this about him. Firstly, he bringing about similar progressive change in is a hardworking, decent Australian. Secondly, education in this country—but with this he has worked on the waterfront for 18 years. government, I never know. Thirdly, he has got a wife and three children. I wish tonight to address an education issue And, fourthly, he is not even a member of the of grave importance. Last year, some senators wharfies’ union. He was a supervisor working in this place may recall the issue of HECS on the wharves. He was a member of the places being sacrificed to introduce places for supervisors union, not the MUA. They were domestic up-front fee paying places. This not on strike. They had an enterprise agree- issue actually arose when minutes— ment with Patricks. He was sacked. He was Senator McGauran—What about P&O? telephoned at home and told he did not have a job anymore. Senator STOTT DESPOJA—No, P&O were not involved in this crisis, Senator There were 600 workers other than those in McGauran. the MUA who were sacked. They were Senator McGauran—Hey, Forshaw, what innocent of any crime. They were innocent of about P&O? any illegal or legal industrial activity. They were busy doing their jobs on the waterfront The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT and they were sacked. What was John (Senator Reynolds)—Order! Senator Howard’s response when this was put to him? McGauran, you have been persistently inter- John Howard said on TV—and these are his jecting and I think I have been more than exact words—‘Well, they’re all in the MUA tolerant, but I will not continue to be tolerant and innocent people get affected.’ That is if you continue to interject. true: innocent people get affected, particularly Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I am talking in events like wars or other catastrophes. But about the issue of HECS places being re- innocent people get affected when tyrannical placed by those for full fee paying domestic Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2763 students. Minutes from the University of animals through a number of academic pur- Sydney’s Faculty of Veterinary Science board suits as well as through her work with the meeting of 5 March were presented to an development of animal courses in the TAFE estimates committee. These minutes detailed sector involving collaborative programming the faculty’s plans to drop its first year HECS and work with a veterinary teaching hospital. intake to 67 places from a planned 83. The Her academic record is a Bachelor of Science minutes stated: in Agriculture and a Master’s research degree From 1997 the quota for Year 1 HECS-paying from the Faculty of Veterinary Science (Syd- students has been changed to 65 in order to accom- ney). modate a mixture of 25 prospective International and Australian Fee-paying students from 1998. Despite her completion of the Master’s in the same area at the same institution, Avril’s That statement appears on page 3 of the application to gain a HECS placement in the minutes. The statement demonstrates blatant undergraduate veterinary science course this disregard of the government’s claim that fee year was not successful. This, in itself, is paying students would not displace HECS unusual enough to warrant further attention places. from the minister. But her story gets even When this was brought to the attention of more interesting. the former Minister for Employment, Educa- When the first round placements were tion, Training and Youth Affairs, Senator announced, Avril Baird made an appointment Vanstone, we received a rather feeble re- with the Dean of the Faculty, Professor David sponse. I quote from a response to a question Fraser, to discuss the possibility of her receiv- on notice to the estimates committee: ing a second round offer. After this meeting, The Vice-Chancellor of the University of Sydney it was agreed by the professor that they would has advised that the University has reduced its first investigate the possibility, but apparently no year intake for Veterinary Science in 1997 from 83 to 67 students because of concerns over the high definite undertaking was given that her drop out rate in the course. application would be successful. The minister was happy with this explanation A few days later, on 3 February, apparently that was given and, at least to my knowledge, while picking up her dog from the University has accepted the lower HECS load. From my of Sydney veterinary hospital, Ms Baird was inquiries, I gather that the current first year is approached by Dr William Porges, the Asso- comprised of 69 HECS and 19 domestic up- ciate Dean, Professional and Community front fee paying students. The minutes stated Relations, at this same faculty. Until this time, that the faculty was planning for a mixture of Dr Porges had never initiated a conversation 25 international and domestic fee paying with Ms Baird. To her knowledge, he was not students this year but, given previous enrol- aware that she had applied to gain a place- ment trends, I find it hard to believe that the ment in the undergraduate veterinary science international student intake would be as low course. Dr Porges indicated that she would as six. However, we have been unable to find receive a letter shortly, and in fact indicated out just how many international students are his surprise that she had not already been enrolled at the University of Sydney to contacted. After this conversation, Avril Baird substantiate, or otherwise, those comments. In believed that her application had been accept- light of this, I find the response from the ed and that at last, as she said in her letter to university and the seeming lack of interest by me, ‘My life’s ambition was going to be the minister and the department in this matter fulfilled.’ of great concern. That Friday, 6 February, the newspapers did That concern has been compounded now by not have Ms Baird’s name in the second a letter that I received, as has the current round of offers and she was understandably Minister for Employment, Education, Training quite devastated. She rang the university and Youth Affairs (Dr Kemp), from Ms Avril application centre who confirmed that she had Baird. Over the last nine years, Ms Baird has not received an offer. Her application was strived to fulfil her desire to work with refused. Avril Baird has since approached the 2764 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 student ombudsman and has appealed against Agricultural Science has been used to arrive the decision, but was informed by Ros at that objective criteria ranking. This grade Pesman, chair of the academic board, that: point average of 4.45 out of a possible seven Because there are only some 20 to 30 HECS places gives Miss Baird a rank of 81. It will prob- available for category B students each year and ably give Miss Baird no comfort to learn that some two to three hundred applicants, competition another student did enter the Bachelor of for the places is very very strong with the result Veterinary Science who was also assessed on that many students with outstanding records and a bachelor degree with a grade point average very high motivation fail to gain a place. Your ranking was not sufficiently high for you to qualify of 3.94 out of the possible seven or a ranking for one of the Category B places. of 74—that student made it in. Ms Baird wrote to the vice-chancellor seeking It would appear that, contrary to the claim clarification as to the events which had of the academic board, Avril’s ranking was occurred. She wanted to be told why she had sufficiently high. The only real defence left not got a place, why she could finish a Mas- that the university could put up would be ters of Veterinary Science in that faculty and what Vice-Chancellor Professor Brown termed yet not be accepted into the undergraduate ‘subjective criteria’, that is, as he stated, her degree. The Vice-Chancellor, Professor Gavin application ‘may be supplemented by the Brown, wrote back to Miss Baird after seek- more subjective criteria of a demonstrated ing advice from the Dean, Professor Fraser. commitment to veterinary science where In his response dated 27 March, the vice- relevant information is supplied’. Clearly, chancellor stated the ‘objective criteria’ for from her nine years working towards not only applicants with a tertiary record may be entrance in the degree but working in this ‘supplemented by the more subjective criteria field, through her work with TAFE, et cetera, of a demonstrated commitment to veterinary Miss Baird has demonstrated this commit- science where relevant information is sup- ment. plied.’ What is of concern here is that the vice- The vice-chancellor stated that Dr Porges chancellor indicates that the confusion has was one of the staff that the dean had con- arisen because Dr Porges was one of several tacted who ‘erroneously concluded that this staff members that the Dean, Professor Fraser, inquiry indicated that your application had consulted to investigate Miss Baird’s subjec- been successful’. The vice-chancellor apolo- tive criteria. Miss Baird included in her gised for this ‘simple but unfortunate application several referees who were both misunderstanding’ and reaffirmed the decision staff members of the faculty and who had of the faculty. worked closely with her. The dean did not I share the concerns of Miss Baird regard- approach these people. ing the responses of both the academic board As indicated by the uniqueness of Dr and the vice-chancellor. First, there is some Porges actually initiating a conversation with question as to whether or not the ‘objective Miss Baird, he has little to do with her pro- criteria’ has been fully investigated. This is fessionally or academically and was definitely stated by the vice-chancellor and also by the not used as a referee by Miss Baird. So why academic board who found that her ‘ranking then has this process been followed? Why has was not sufficiently high.’ the application of Miss Baird not been given My understanding is that Miss Baird sub- proper consideration, why has she not been mitted her thesis for her masters research given the benefit of having the information degree to the University of Sydney on 20 she supplied to back up her application being August 1997. This had not apparently been taken into consideration? accounted for in her assessment as a candidate I believe the crux of this issue is that this for the bachelor’s degree. Secondly, and still faculty is being pushed into pursuit of up- on the objective criteria, Miss Baird’s ranking front fee payers at all costs and therefore due has been based on her grade point average of process has not been followed when deciding a lesser degree, that is, her Bachelor of course offers. Perhaps another up-front fee Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2765 payer came into contention and knocked Ms Dr. Paul Hopwood believes that this student was Baird out of the running. We will probably given special treatment, his response to this was, never know, but I believe that the minister and I quote, should do his utmost to get to the bottom of ‘I think this is obvious: not only does such a late this murky issue. enrolment advantage a student, I mean they don’t have to find accommodation or other costs that the I have a number of comments to follow. I other students completing a full year have to go have spoken to the opposition and to the through, but this student would not be capable of representative of the government on duty to completing the work without special tuition, and ask whether I may seek leave to incorporate the University provided, to my direct knowledge, the services of two tutors at University expense. the remainder of my remarks which go on to Whereas Australian HECS students don’t receive reveal the real intrigue. I request the govern- these benefits.’ ment to act on this issue. I seek leave to After further examination of the overseas student’s incorporate the remainder of my remarks. academic transcript, he discovered that the student Leave granted. had absolutely no training which might have been relevant to the course he was teaching. The remarks read as follows— He said, ‘The course was being taught based on the While the Minister is investigating Miss Baird’s dissection of the dog. As you would appreciate, situation, he might want to take note of other veterinary practitioners routinely operate on cats disturbing events taking place in this Faculty and and dogs, it’s a substantial part of their training, around the country where fee paying is concerned. and this student had no anatomical training on Allegations of preferential treatment for fee-paying dog.’ students at this university, and in this faculty, are This was met by the following claims made by the not new. Dean of Veterinary Science, who believed that the Some of the most recent were broadcast on ABC student in question deserved to be given credit for radio National some weeks ago. the work she’d already done at university overseas, and I quote; Dr. Paul Hopwood, lecturer at the University of Sydney in Veterinary Anatomy has claimed that he ‘The student had had experience in anatomy, has substantial evidence, which supports the theory human anatomy and human dissection so that that that the University of Sydney is giving fee-paying was one of the reasons for making this decision. students an unfair advantage over HECS students. And of course veterinary anatomy is simply comparative anatomy; the human anatomy is one In August of 1997, Dr Paul Hopwood noticed a species and the whole purpose of veterinary new overseas feepaying student in his first year anatomy is to compare different species, and that class, who had been admitted to the course more was a very good grounding for the veterinary than half way through the academic year. anatomy which was subsequently done’. He stated ‘In 25 years within this faculty, it, to the In response, the lecturer Dr. Paul Hopwood is not best of my knowledge, has never happened before. satisfied with this X explanation. It’s a little strange that a course that has already had part of the work examined, for a course that He is quoted as saying ‘Well unless you believe requires attendance at a large number of dissection that veterinary surgeons should be operating on classes, for a student to be enrolled half-way people, and human surgeons should be operating on through that course, is more than enough to make dogs and cats I find that view rather amazing.’ you raise your eyebrows’. I guess the lure of as much as $26,000 + per year When asked by Radio national’s Tom Morton, what that an institution can gain from an international the problem with a student beginning a course half- fee-paying student must be great in the face of the way through the academic year was, he replied devastation that the Coalition’s budget cuts to ‘Well, the problem would be that half of the university operating grants of 6% over five years teaching material has already been presented and have created. because the teaching material is based on animal These allegations made by Dr Hopwood, and the dissection work, it’s very difficult for a student to letter I received from Avril Baird must be respond- be able to cover the material.’ ed to by the Minister as a matter of urgency. The University of Sydney’s rules state that a I find it disturbing that the penalty for breaching student must attend 90% of lectures in order to pass the 25% limit on domestic upfront fee places is a subject, unless they can show due cause why they $9,000. A figure far less than the potential profits should be exempted. of these places. 2766 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

However, the most disturbing factor of all has been children now live in a family that relies on the disinterest with which successive Government welfare—a jump of more than 10 per cent in Minister’s and University’s such as the University the last five years and something, surely, that of Sydney (and they are not alone in reduced their HECS load to increase the likelihood of fee-paying no political party can condone or support. places) have treated apparent breaches of the edict I believe that the best thing you can do for not to sacrifice HECS places. someone on welfare is to help get them off The motto for Sydney Uni translates to ‘Same mind welfare. The whole purpose of the social under a different sky’ but the post Howard version welfare system was supposed to be a safety might read ‘same mind under different rules’. net to prevent people falling into poverty and Welfare Payments despair. Instead, for many, it has become a Senator SYNON (Victoria) (7.42 p.m.)—I sticky web trapping people in poverty and would like to preface my speech tonight by despair. The culture of dependency eats at extending my congratulations to my colleague your confidence, bites into your being, pois- and friend the Treasurer, Peter Costello, on a ons all hope. This is a downward spiral. far sighted and responsible 1998-99 budget. Formerly self-reliant people fall into a poverty I would like to acknowledge the thinking trap as the social welfare system and the behind the budget, the commitment to the taxation system conspire to make it impos- Australian people which underlies the budget sible to get out. It is often better to stay on strategy and the determination to share the welfare or on a very low income supplement- burdens and the rewards which will give, as ed by welfare, than it is to try to work your the Treasurer said, young people, home way out of it and become self-supporting buyers, small business and job seekers better again. This is simply not good enough. What opportunities and a bright future. It will allow messages are we giving our children, what us to care for our older people and give hope ethics will they learn, what values will they to the younger ones. believe in? This evening I wish to return to the main Our children will learn that in some fami- theme of my maiden speech: the reliance of lies it is financially better not to work, and so many Australians on welfare and the growth they will not. A recent study has found that of the welfare culture in our country. Just 20 a family with one child and a single income years ago in 1978, spending on welfare in of $20,000 had more disposable income than Australia was about 27 per cent of the nation- a similar family earning $30,000. Welfare al budget. That percentage has now risen to boosted the first families’ $20,000 to $28,427. nearly 39 per cent—a massive increase in 20 The family earning $30,000 received fewer years. This escalation clearly cannot continue. benefits and ended up with $26,697—nearly It is imperative that it is reigned in not only $2,000 less than the lower income family. The because of hard economic realities, but also extra $10,000 per year in salary translated to because of the massive social cost of welfare a net loss of $40 a week, or an effective tax in our community. rate of $240 on earnings of $200—a marginal tax rate of 120 per cent. The values which underpin Australia’s culture are being attacked by the welfare This problem is recognised by the govern- mentality. No longer do some people have the ment, if not the opposition. As the Treasurer same cocky self-confidence which has charac- said last night, with some understatement, I terised this nation for so long. Instead, they believe: look desperately to government to solve their The interaction of the tax and social security problems, to hold their hands and to pay their systems reduces the incentive to find work or to bills. Last financial year, an additional earn more. 130,000 people became dependent on govern- As the head of the Audit Commission, Profes- ment payments. One in five Australians over sor Bob Officer observed: 20 is now dependent on welfare, and that It becomes the culture to rely on the government. does not include those in receipt of an age Welfare encourages dependency and often leads to pension. Forty-three per cent of all Australian false claims.’ Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2767

Look at the results of the Minister for Social another 2,000 or 3,000 to that. That is what Security’s recent crackdown on social security we are dealing with—you cause unemploy- fraud and compliance: 1,319 convictions for ment. welfare fraud—an increase of almost 20 per Senator SYNON—It is all right for you to cent over the same period last year. interject, Kate Lundy, but under your govern- Since July 1996, some $600 million, or ment unemployment reached 11.3 per cent— nearly $1.1 million per day, has been recov- over 1 million unemployed. We now have, at ered for the taxpayers. In addition, nearly 7.9 per cent, the lowest unemployment rate 200,000 people had payments cancelled or since October 1990. Under this government, reduced in the first six months of the financial last month a total of 58,200 jobs were creat- year—a massive increase of 25.4 per cent ed—42,500 of them were full-time but you over the same period in the previous year. don’t want to hear the good news, do you, Claiming unemployment benefits whilst in Senator Lundy. jail, on holidays overseas, or whilst actually working on the snowfields is a well-doc- Senator Troeth—On a point of order, umented phenomenon. Nearly $120 million— Madam Acting Deputy President. Senator almost half of all debt recovery from re- Lundy has been interjecting continually since views—came from the allegedly unemployed. the start of Senator Synon’s remarks, and I Ripping off the government, which is what a ask that you call her to order. lot of these people think they are doing, is The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT supposedly okay. The reality is that it is not (Senator Reynolds)—I have been aware of the government that they are ripping off. It is Senator Lundy’s interjection, but she hasn’t their neighbours, their friends and their been able to be heard and that is why I have family. not called her to order. But I would— We all need to acknowledge the mutual Senator SYNON—I have been hearing her, obligation—the give and take—inherent in Madam Acting Deputy President. society and in the social security system. We need to combine fairness and compassion for The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I the genuinely needy with the imperative to spoke very severely to Senator McGauran for help people off the culture of dependency and continuous interjection because his voice was into an environment of self-reliance; and this very penetrating and was disrupting the flow government is putting in place the mecha- of the speech. I did not feel that was so in nisms to assist with this very necessary your case, Senator Synon, but I will ask attitudinal change. Senator Lundy to cease interjecting. Please We have introduced work for the dole—the continue. quintessential example of mutual obligation in Senator SYNON—Thank you. A radical action—and other programs to help young review of the links between the social welfare people improve their job prospects. The system and the taxation system must be a budget is full of examples to assist those in priority for this country. The government has genuine need. We can only afford the fair and demonstrated that the taxation system is effective social security system that we need broken, and I would like to congratulate the if we have a healthy economy and this Prime Minister and the Treasurer for having government—as our actions and this week’s the determination to confront this serious budget are showing—is achieving that. problem in the taxation system and for the Look at employment. What this government development of a comprehensive plan for has delivered on employment is fantastic. reform. Our plan will remove many of the Even with 35,000 extra people joining the incentives to stay on welfare built into the labour market last month, unemployment in current taxation system. this country has fallen to 7.9 per cent. In closing, I would like to emphasise that Senator Lundy—You sacked 12,000 the coalition believes in helping to get people locally in Canberra—oh sorry, I forgot, add off welfare. The ALP believes in keeping 2768 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 people dependent on welfare. We want all Civil Aviation Act—Civil Aviation Regula- Australians to be—(Time expired) tions—Civil Aviation Orders— Senate adjourned at 7.52 p.m. Directive—Part— 105, dated 13, 19 [6], 23 [6], 25 [5] and 27 DOCUMENTS [2] March; and 2 [2], 3 [2], 7 [5], 8 and 9 [21] April 1998. Tabling 106, dated 19 and 24 [3] March; and 3 [2], The following government documents were 7 and 9 April 1998. tabled: Exemptions Nos CASA 12/1998-CASA Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) 16/1998. Act—Aboriginal Land Commissioner—Reports Instruments Nos CASA 79/98, CASA 84/98, for 1996-97 and for the period 1 July 1997 to 24 CASA 103/98 and CASA 104/98. October 1997. Cocos (Keeling) Islands Act—Ordinance—No. Australia-India Council—Report for 1996-97. 2 of 1998 (Land Laws Amendment Ordinance Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation Act— 1998). Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation—Strategic Commonwealth Authorities and Companies plan July 1998 to December 2000. Act—Notice pursuant to paragraph 45(1)(a)— Torres Strait Fisheries Act—Protected Zone Joint Establishment of the National Prescribing Service Authority—Report for— Limited. 1995-96. Copyright Act—Declaration under section 10A, dated 20 April 1998. 1996-97. Crimes Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 Treaties—Text, together with national interest No. 68. analysis—Multilateral—Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty, done at New York on 10 Customs Act— September 1996. Instruments of Approval Nos 1, 3 and 4 of UNESCO General Conference—29th session, 1998. Paris, 21 October to 12 November 1997—Report Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 58. of the Australian Delegation. Defence Act— Tabling Defence Determinations 1998/16 and 1998/17. The following documents were tabled by Defence Force (Superannuation) (Productivity the Clerk: Benefit) Determination (Amendment) (No. 2 of 1998). Acts Interpretation Act—Statement pursuant to subsection 34C(7) relating to the delay in presen- Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 Nos 60 and tation of a report—Torres Strait Protected Zone 63. Joint Authority Report for 1995-96. Export Control Act—Export Control (Orders) Aged Care Act—Determination under section Regulations—Export Control (Fees) Orders 44—ACA No. 1/1998. (Amendment)—Export Control Orders No. 1 of 1998. Airports Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 70. Export Inspection (Establishment Registration Charges) Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules Australian Bureau of Statistics Act—Proposals 1998 No. 75. Nos 6-8 of 1998. Family Law Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules Australian Communications Authority Act— 1998 No. 59. Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 62. Financial Management and Accountability Act— Child Care Act— Determination under section 20— Child Care (Eligibility—New Allocations) Guidelines 1998. Australian Archives Projects and Sponsored Activities Reserve. Child Care (High Need Regions) Determina- tion 1998. Financial Action Task Force—Asia Pacific Group Secretariat Reserve. Child Care Legislation Amendment Act— Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 64. PBPA—Factor (f) Funds Reserve. Christmas Island Act—Ordinance—No. 2 of The Comcover Reserve. 1998 (Land Laws Amendment Ordinance 1998). Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 65. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2769

Fisheries Management Act—Northern Prawn Primary Industries Levies and Charges Collection Fishery Management Plan 1995—Direction No. Act, Horticultural Levy Act and Horticultural NPFD 20 (Amendment of Direction No. NPFD Export Charge Act—Regulations—Statutory 13). Rules 1998 No. 74. Health Insurance Commission Act— Public Service Act— Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 67. Foreign Affairs and Trade Determinations Higher Education Funding Act—Determination 1998/2 and 1998/3. under section— Locally Engaged Staff Determinations 15— 1998/14-1998/18. T30-97 and T31-97. Senior Executive Service Retirement on T9-98. Benefit Determinations 1998/20-1998/25. 16—T29-97. Quarantine Act—Quarantine Determinations No. 1 of 1998. 19—T10-98. Remuneration Tribunal Act—Determination No. Imported Food Control Act—Regulations— 12 of 1998. Statutory Rules 1998 No. 69. Retirement Savings Accounts Act— Insurance Acquisitions and Takeovers Act— Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 82. Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 79. Sales Tax Determination STD 98/1 (Addendum). Insurance (Agents and Brokers) Act— Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 77. Student and Youth Assistance Act— Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 71. Insurance Contracts Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 78. Superannuation Industry (Supervision) Act— Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 Nos 76, 81 International Organisations (Privileges and and 83. Immunities) Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 66. Superannuation (Resolution of Complaints) Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 84. Judiciary Act—Rules of Court—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 61. Sydney Airport Curfew Act—Dispensation granted under section 20—Dispensation No. Lands Acquisition Act—Statements describing 2/98. property acquired by agreement under section 40 of the Act for specified public purposes [2]. Taxation Determinations TD 98/5-TD 98/7. Meat and Live-stock Industry Act—Order under Taxation Ruling— section 68— SST 9. Order No. M79/98. TR 94/26 (Addendum). Order No. MQ72/98. TR 98/5. Migration Act—Statement for period 1 July to 31 Telecommunications Act— December 1997 under section 351. Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 72. Military Superannuation and Benefits Act— Telecommunications (Due Date for Annual Military Superannuation and Benefits Trust Charge) Determination 1998. Deed (Amendment) (No. 1 of 1998). Telecommunications (Late Payment of Annual Military Superannuation and Benefits Trust Charge) Determination 1998. Deed (Amendment) (No. 2 of 1998). Telecommunications (Numbering Charges) Act— Murray-Darling Basin Act—Murray-Darling Telecommunications (Amount of Annual Basin Agreement—Schedule E—Interstate Charge) Determination 1998. Transfer of Water Allocations. Telecommunications (Exemption from Annual National Health Act— Charge) Determination 1998. Declarations Nos PB 6 and PB 7 of 1998. Therapeutic Goods Act— Determination— Determination under section 19A, dated 20 HIG3/1998. March 1998. No. PB 8 of 1998. Therapeutic Goods Order No. 61. Private Patients’ Hospital Charter— Veterans’ Entitlements Act—Instrument under HIG2/1998. section— Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 73. 29—Instrument No. 3 of 1998. 2770 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

115B—Veterans’ Vocational Rehabilitation Child Care Legislation Amendment Act 1998— Scheme—Instrument No. 5 of 1998. Provisions of the Act, other than sections 1, 2, 3 and 4 and items 16 and 17 of Schedule 1—27 196B—Instruments Nos 25-36 of 1998. April 1998 (Gazette No. S167, 20 April 1998). PROCLAMATIONS Insurance Laws Amendment Act 1998—Schedule 1—30 April 1998 (Gazette No. S188, 29 April Proclamations by His Excellency the Gover- 1998). nor-General were tabled, notifying that he had Trans-Tasman Mutual Recognition Act 1997— proclaimed the following provisions of Acts Act, except for Part 1—1 May 1998 (Gazette No. to come into operation on the dates specified: S187, 29 April 1998). Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2771

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Department of Finance and nuation ‘have a discretion’ between paying a 66(1) benefit and a section 80 (resignation) benefit. Administration: Training or Seminars (Question No. 1027) Senator Kemp—The Minister for Finance and Administration has provided the follow- Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister ing answer to the honourable senator’s ques- representing the Minister for Finance and tion: Administration, upon notice, on 5 December (1) Subsection 7(1) of the Superannuation Act 1997: 1976 provides: (a) What training or seminars for Canberra-based "7(1) A reference in this Act to the retirement public servants employed by the department have of an eligible employee on the ground of occurred outside Canberra since March 1996; and invalidity shall be read as a reference to his or (b) where has the training taken place. her having been retired or his or her services Senator Kemp—The Minister for Finance having been otherwise terminated, on the ground of physical or mental incapacity to and Administration has provided the follow- perform his or her duties." ing answer to the honourable senator’s ques- tion: Subsection 7(1) may be broken down as follows: "A reference in this Act to the retirement of According to records held by the Department of an eligible employee on the ground of invalidi- Finance and Administration: ty shall be read as a reference to: (a) (i) 52 Canberra-based staff attended Task (i) an eligible employee having been retired Allocation and Planning Workshops; and (ii) 39 on the ground of physical or mental inca- Canberra-based staff attended a Team Building pacity to perform his duties, or (ii) an Day. eligible employee’s services having been (b) (i) Lake George and Braidwood; and (ii) otherwise terminated on the ground of Goolabri Park, Sutton, NSW. physical or mental incapacity to perform his duties." Superannuation The reason for there being two limbs in sub-s 7(1) is to ensure that the various forms of employ- (Question No. 1061) ment by which a person becomes an ‘eligible Senator Woodley asked the Minister employee’ within the meaning of sub-s.3(1) are representing the Minister for Finance and brought within the ambit of sub-s 7(1). Sub-s 7(1) recognises that some sorts of eligible employees are Administration, upon notice, on 30 January retired whereas other sorts of eligible employees 1998: cannot properly be said to be retired but rather, (1) With reference to the application of the have their services terminated. phrase ‘or his services having been otherwise Specific examples of ‘eligible employees’ who terminated’ (section 7(1) Superannuation Act 1976) may have their services "otherwise terminated on to cessation of employment on health grounds of the ground of physical or mental incapacity to members of the Commonwealth Superannuation perform his or her duties" are: Scheme: Can some actual examples be provided of . High Court of Australia Act 1979 the words which were used, and the sources of those words, to describe the manner in which the "24.(1) The Governor-General may terminate employment had been terminated (for example the appointment of the Chief Executive and ‘ceased employment on invalidity grounds’). Principal Registrar by reason of the misbehaviour or the physical or mental inca- (2) If an employer, which is in possession of an pacity of the Chief Executive and Principal Australian Government Medical Officer’s report Registrar." and recommendation which indicates an employee is not fit to perform his or her duties, refuses to . Australian Broadcasting Corporation Act 1983 retire the employee but alternatively processes a "18.(1) The Governor-General may remove a resignation, does the Commissioner for Superan- non-executive Director from office for 2772 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

misbehaviour or physical or mental incapaci- With reference to a speech the Minister ty." gave at the Australian College of Education (2) Retirement on the ground of invalidity is Conference on 30 April 1997, in which the provided for in Part IVA of the Superannuation Act Minister announced that he would establish an 1976. Section 54C provides that an eligible em- expert group of top teachers to advise the ployee cannot be retired on the ground of invalidity without the approval of the CSS Board. The Federal Government on key education poli- Commissioner for Superannuation no longer has cies: any power with regard to invalidity retirement. Part IVA sets out the process that the CSS Board must (1) Was this group of top teachers formed; if so: follow in deciding whether to approve a retirement. (a) when (b) what are the names of the teachers included in the group and the names of the or- Subsection 7(2) provides the CSS Board with a ganisations which recommended them; and (c) does discretion to deem that the person be retired on the any member of this group have a strong back- ground of invalidity where the person has ceased ground in indigenous education. to be an eligible employee before attaining his or her maximum retiring age by reason of having been (2) On which education policy matters has the retired or his or her services having been otherwise Minister consulted with the group. terminated other than on the grounds of invalidity. (3) What are some examples of how the Minister Small Business has utilised the advice given to him by this group of experts (Question No. 1075) (4) Is it intended for the advisory group to Senator O’Brien asked the Minister repre- continue. senting the Minister for Workplace Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on 4 March Senator Ellison—The Minister for Employ- 1998: ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs (1) How many small businesses were there in has provided the following answer to the Australia, by State, in December 1994, 1995, 1996 honourable senator’s question: and 1997. (2) With reference to the Minister’s media (1) Membership of this teacher body is still under release, dated 6 January 1998, which stated that the consideration. The organisations that have been Government expected 40 000 new businesses to be asked to nominate possible members of the body created in 1998: Can a breakdown of that forecast are the: growth by State be provided. Australian Association for the Teaching of Senator Alston—The Minister for Work- English; Australian Association of Mathematics place Relations and Small Business has Teachers; Australian Council for Health, Physical provided the following answer to the hon- Education and Recreation; Australian Federation ourable senator’s question: of Modern Language Teachers Associations; Australian Federation of Societies for Studies of (1) No figures are available from the Australian Society and Environment; Australian Joint Bureau of Statistics (ABS) for the month of Council of Professional Teaching Associations; December for the years requested. However, Australian Science Teachers’ Association; financial year figures are available in the ABS National Affiliation of Arts Educators; National publication, Small Business in Australia, Education Forum; Primary English Teaching Cat.No.1321.0. Association; Technology Education Federation of (2) The estimate of 40,000 new businesses in the Australia; and Vocational Education and Training Minister’s media release did not give a breakdown. Network. The Government is confident that the very positive business environment for the small business sector It is intended that one member of the new body will ensure that this "global" forecast is met. will have a strong background in indigenous education. Education (2) Not applicable. (Question No. 1077) (3) Not applicable. Senator Allison asked the Minister repre- (4) It is intended that the initial appointments be senting the Minister for Employment, Educa- for a period three years with a review of the tion, Training and Youth Affairs, upon notice, membership and operation of the body toward the on 9 March 1998: end of that period. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2773

Workplace Relations the Trade Practices Act 1974, it has an informal role in monitoring actions taken under the boycott (Question No. 1079) provisions. My department has no record of any in- Senator Murray asked the Minister repre- stance where an injunction has been granted under the new boycott provisions of the TPA in instances senting the Minister for Workplace Relations involving protests and boycott actions by consum- and Small Business, on notice, on 9 March ers, environmentalists or human rights activists 1998: whether individuals, groups or bodies corporate. (1) Have any company injunctions been taken out The Assistant Treasurer has indicated that neither under the Workplace Relations Act 1996 or the the Department of Treasury nor the Australian Trade Practices Act 1974 against protests and Competition and Consumer Commission is aware boycott actions by consumers, environmentalists or of injunctions granted under the new boycott human rights activists whether individuals groups provisions of the TPA against any individual, group or body corporate; if so, can details be provided or body corporate in relation to protest or boycott including a comparison of the number with action action by consumer, environmentalist or human taken in previous years under the Industrial Rela- rights activists. tions Act 1988. In relation to the former Division 7, Part VI of (2) Has the Minister received any complaint since the IR Act (i.e., as amended by the IRR Act), my the promulgation of the Workplace Relations Act department has no record of any instance where an 1996 and the new sections 45D, 45DA and 45DB injunction was granted in circumstances that could of the Trade Practices Act 1974, that the new Act be described as protests and boycott action by has stifled environmental, human rights, spiritual, consumers, environmentalists, or human rights cultural, or consumer protest in any way; if so, can activists. details be provided. In relation to former sections 45D and 45E of the Senator Alston—The Minister for Work- TPA prior to the commencement of the IRR Act in place Relations and Small Business has 1994, my department has records of nine cases provided the following answer to the honour- where an injunction was granted in circumstances involving protests and boycott action that were able senator’s question: taken by consumers environmentalists, or human (1) Schedule 17 of the Workplace Relations and rights activists. A list of these maters is attached. Other Legislation Amendments Act 1996 My department has no record of injunctions (WROLA) introduced amendments to the Trade being granted under the Workplace Relations Act Practices Act 1974 (TPA). Sections 45D, 45DA, 1996 (WRA) in circumstances involving action by, 45DB, 45DC 45DD and 45DE, 45EA and 45EB environmentalists, consumer protection groups or were incorporated into the TPA and commenced on human rights activists. The provisions of the WR 17 January 1997 (the new boycott provisions). Act authorising the issue of injunctions are con- Relevant provisions of the Industrial Relations Act cerned with various industrial maters (eg, enforcing 1988 (the IR Act) were repealed. orders made about industrial action, unfair and Prior to the amendments made by WROLA, the unlawful dismissal, and enforcing certain other provisions relating to boycott conduct in the provisions relating to industrial action, freedom of industrial context were contained in Division 7 of association, Australian Workplace Agreements, Part VI of the Industrial Relations Act 1988 (the IR right of entry, strike pay, industrial election inqui- Act). These provisions were inserted in the IR Act ries.) by the Industrial Relations Reform Act (IRR Act), (2) I have no record of any complaints that which also repealed section 45E and amended boycott provisions of the TPA or the WR Act have section 45D of the TPA to exclude "boycott in any way stifled environmental, human rights, conduct" within the meaning of Division 7 of Part spiritual, cultural or consumer protest. The Assist- VI of the IR Act from its scope ant Treasurer has also advised that neither he nor While my department does not have direct the Treasurer has received any complaints that the responsibility for administering the provisions of TPA has stifled such protests. 2774 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Injunctions Granted under boycott provisions—Attachment

Act Case Name Details

Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Binalong Pty Ltd and Anor v Conservation The case concerns both conservation and March 1994. Council of South Australia and Ors (1994) Aboriginal land rights issues. In late Octo- ATPR 41-312. ber 1993, the CFMEU and the Friends of Goolwa and Kumarangk (the Friends), placed pickets at the Hindmarsh Island Bridge construction site, obstructing the movement of a rode grader onto the site. After some days, attempts at construction ceased, and the picket was lifted. How- ever, the CFMEU stated that should con- struction resume, the picket would be re- instated. The union also made public state- ments that it would never allow the bridge to be built, because its construction would result in environmental damage and inter- ference to Aboriginal sites. On 24 March 1994, an officer of the Con- servation Council of South Australia gave a radio interview in which he asked Westpac, who was financing the project, to withdraw financial backing. Five days later, a public rally was held in opposition to the construction of the bridge. After the rally, members of the Union went to Westpac’s office and handed a letter to an employee, again requesting that financial backing be withdrawn. On 29 March 1994, Binalong Pty Ltd made an application under section 45D of the Trade Practices Act. That same day, the Federal Court granted interim injunctions restraining the re- spondents from hindering or prevent- ing the construction of the bridge, and from hindering or preventing the provision of banking and/or financial services to the applicant by Westpac. Heerey J (in a judgement delivered 19 April 1994), held that there was no triable issue in relation to the state- ments made by the Conservation Council. His Honour also held that an injunction should not be granted in relation to the approaches made to Westpac. However, he held that the CFMEU and the Friends had acted in concert to prevent building the bridge, which caused direct or obvious dam- age to the applicant’s business. Ac- cordingly, the interim injunction was replaced by an order restraining the CFMEU (and certain officers and members of the Union) and the Friends from hindering, preventing or attempting to hinder or prevent further construction. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2775

Act Case Name Details

Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 BHP v Greenpeace Australia In 1991, BHP Petroleum commenced March 1994 action under section 45D against Greenpeace over the latter’s disruption of BHP’s seismic surveying operations off the Victorian coast. The area that the company was surveying contained the Southern Right Whale calving grounds. BHP Petroleum was granted an injunction preventing Greenpeace, its vessels or employees from ap- proaching the survey vessel. After a public outcry, BHP did not pursue its action further. It should be noted that this action, as it did not involve industrial action, would be covered by the defence in subsection 45DD(3) of the Trade Practice Act (as amended by Schedule 17 of the Workplace Relations and Other Legislation Amendment Act 1996.) Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Attorney-General of Queensland and There were two cases concerning this March 1994 Mary Kathleen Uranium v Seamen’s issue, both arising out of the same set Union of Australia Nos Q33 and Q32 of circumstances. Bans were placed on of 1981 ships (from 6/5/81) as part of the ACTU Uranium Boycott. The Attor- ney-General of Queensland and Mary Kathleen Uranium (MKU) made an application (22/10/81) under section 45D. An interim injunction was grant- ed on 6/11/81. The ACTU decided to defer the fur- ther implementation of its anti-urani- um export policy in December 1981 (however, the MKU ships had sailed without uranium prior to this). Ac- cordingly, the applications were with- drawn on 11/1 and 13/1/82. Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Mary Kathleen Uranium v Waterside Mary Kathleen Uranium made another March 1994 Workers’ Federation and Anor No application against the WWF and QG 25/1991 AFSA (on 11/11/81). An interim in- junction was issued the same day. The application was withdrawn on 25/8/82. 2776 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

Act Case Name Details

Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Air Pacific Limited v Transport This matter arose from a dispute that March 1994 Workers’ Union No NG18/93 Air Pacific was having in Fiji. Charges had been laid against the Secretary of the Fiji Airways Workers Association (FAWA) for strike action. On 13 January 1993, the Transport Workers’ Union, acting in support of the FAWA, imposed bans on refuel- ling and baggage handling in respect of Air Pacific aircraft at Australian airports. On 15 January 1993, the company sought an ex parte interim injunction to restrain breaches of s.45D of the Act. An ex parte interlo- cutory injunction was granted on that day. This injunction was set aside on 23 January 1993. (It had been express- ed to apply until 19.1.93, and the Transport Workers’ Union had lifted its bans; however, due to the union’s refusal to comply with subpoenas requiring the production of certain documents, Hill J amended the injunc- tion so that it remained in force ‘until further order’.) The inunction was set aside after the parties had settled the dispute. Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Overseas Containers Australia Pty Ltd Regarding underpayment of crew March 1994 v Seaman’s Union of Australia No. members on a ‘flag or convenience’ G54/83 ship. Application made 23/3/83, inter- im injunction granted 24/3/83, matter adjourned indefinitely on 13/5/83 after a conference between ANL, maritime unions and the Minister for Transport. Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Hamburg Suedameri-Kanische and Regarding underpayment of crew March 1994 Columbus Line v Seamen’s Union of members on a ‘flag of convenience’ Australia No. G56/83 ship. Application made 23/2/83, inter- im injunction granted 24/3/83, matter adjourned indefinitely 10/6/83. Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Chevron Transport Corporation v Matter arose over underpayment on March 1994 Seamen’s Union of Australia and ‘flag of convenience’ ship. Bans ap- Anor No. G230/83 plied because crew members were paid below The International Trans- port Federation rate. Application made 15/8/83, interim injunction granted 17/8/83, bans lifted, matter adjourned indefinitely 19/8/83. Trade Practices Act 1974, prior to 30 Green Island Cement Pty Ltd v Water- Regarding underpayment of crew March 1974 side Workers’ Federation and the members. Application made 24/12/84, Seamen’s Union of Australia No. interim injunction granted 24/12/84. This G463/84 led to the freezing of funds in the WWF bank account equivalent to those paid by Green Island to make up the underpayment to its employees. On 12/2/85, the applica- tion was withdrawn, with the company agreeing to pay all arrears. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2777

Austudy Government considered that self-employed people should be subject to the actual means test because, (Question No. 1085) for this group, the income tests may not be an adequate method of determining their need to share Senator Margetts asked the Minister in the limited resources available for Austudy. representing the Minister for Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs, upon In most cases, actual means will be calculated on notice, on 9 March 1998: expenditure and savings in the last financial year before the year of study. For 1998, that is the 1996- Given the serious problems associated with the 97 financial year. This meets a major concern of Actual Means Test (AMT) for Austudy that were public submissions to the 1997 Actual Means Test experienced throughout 1997, including the need Review. A current actual means concession allows for the Government to conduct a review of the for actual means to be calculated on expenditure AMT to identify anomalies in the test and apparent- and savings in the financial year ending in the year ly make improvements: of study. For 1998, that is the 1997-98 financial (1) Why, after significant time and resources year. have been spent "improving" the AMT process, I was advised in January 1998 that a small does the situation currently exist that a person who number of independent students who were self- was self-employed in 1996 and 1997 and earned employed in 1996-97 before undertaking full-time around $30,000 per annum would receive virtually study in 1998 could have been disadvantaged by no Austudy upon undertaking full-time study for the 1998 actual means test because their actual the first time in 1998, while a person who received means in 1996-97 (when they were self-employed) a wage of $70,000 in 1997, in otherwise similar were higher than they were expected to be in 1997- circumstances, would be entitled to the full rate of 98 (when they left their self-employment to study). Austudy. Following detailed briefing from my Department, (2) Has the Department adopted a policy that I agreed on 10 February 1998 to change the way students returning to study from the workforce will the 1998 actual means test operates for self-em- not generally be eligible for the current income ployed people who leave their self-employment to concession, meaning that they will be tested on take up full-time study. their 1996-97 income rather than 1997-98, thus From 1 January 1998, people who expect their potentially creating the farcical situation that even actual means to fall substantially because of their the AMT students whose only income in 1996-97 decision to undertake full-time study may have was from Austudy will receive a reduced Austudy their actual means calculated in the 1997-98 year entitlement in 1998. rather than the 1996-97 year if the reduction is (3) For how long has the Minister been aware of expected to last for at least two years. Furthermore, the serious inequities currently being experienced people who are no longer in a designated actual by independent students who are subject to the means test category, such as self-employment, may AMT, especially those who were self-employed have their actual means calculated on their expendi- before undertaking full-time study. ture and savings in the 1997-98 year rather than the (4) What is being done by the Government to 1996-97 year if, as a result, there is a substantial rectify this serious inequity, which may be prevent- reduction in their actual means that is expected to ing many of Australia’s self-employed "battlers" last for at least two years. I expect these changes from entering higher education. to provide relief to the small number of students who may have been adversely affected by the 1998 Senator Ellison—The Minister for Employ- actual means test. ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs (2) I assume that the Senator’s question refers to has provided the following answers to the the current actual means concession rather than the honourable senator’s questions: current income concession. Please refer to my (1), (3) and (4) The Austudy student income test answer to question 1 for details about how the takes account of income earned by students in the concession operates. period during which they are eligible to get Austudy. This is intended to reduce disincentives Defence Personnel: Investigation to earn income before they start to study. The actual means test is different. It was introduced to (Question No. 1088) counter a perception in the community that unde- Senator Margetts asked the Minister serving families were able to manipulate their taxable income through complex financial arrange- representing the Minister for Defence Indus- ments and get Austudy while other, sometimes try, Science and Personnel, upon notice, on 10 more needy, families could not. The previous March 1998: 2778 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

With reference to the ‘forced resignation in Major Warren’s reported performance as an Army disgrace’ of ex-Major Allan Warren: officer. (1) Is there any evidence to suggest that, in 1981, (3) (a) and (b) The other major issues raised by officers within the Transport Corp Directorate ex-Major Warren in his ministerial representations abused administrative procedures to force ex-Major relate to the preparation of his annual confidential Warren’s resignation from the Australian Army; if reports and the scoring of them. These issues were so, what action is being taken; if not, what are the dealt with by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal findings in the Minister’s possession with regard to in 1993 which found that statements made in some ex-Major Warren’s forced resignation. confidential reports and letters were incomplete or misleading and did not constitute an objective (2) Is the Minister aware of any investigations report of ex-Major Warren. On direction by the into, or information existing with regard to, the role Tribunal, relevant documents on ex-Major Warren’s of ex-Brigadier J A Hooper in the termination of dossier were annotated accordingly. The Tribunal ex-Major Warren’s armed services career; if so, can found that there was no unfair, misleading or details be provided of the history of any such improper Defence administration in the scoring investigations. applied to ex-Major Warren’s annual reports. In 1994 Lieutenant Colonel B J Salmon QC was (3) (a) Can the Minister provide information on engaged to further investigate the matter of the the several ministerial investigations carried out Army scoring system. He confirmed that no with regard to ex-Major Allan Warren’s case improper procedures were used in scoring the between 1981 and 1994; (b) was any action re- confidential reports. quired as a result of these investigations; if so, have these actions been carried out; if not, why not. (4) Correspondence from the Army is in the standard form of briefs accompanying suggested (4) Has correspondence been received from the responses to Ministerial representations by or on Australian Army with regard to ex-Major Warren; behalf of ex-Major Warren. if so, how has the Minister responded to the army’s position on this matter, given the issues raised by The Department of Defence has acknowledged, ex-Major Warren in his correspondence. and regrets, that there was unfair administration by Army in relation to ex-Major Warren. An ex gratia Senator Newman—In accordance with payment has been made to, and accepted by ex- advice to the Minister for Defence Industry, Major Warren, in compensation. His personal file Science and Personnel the following answer has been annotated to record the findings of the is provided to the honourable senator’s ques- Administrative Appeals Tribunal. tion: Green Corps (1) There is no evidence to suggest that Army officers deliberately abused administrative proced- (Question No. 1094) ures to force ex-Major Warren to resign. The Administrative Appeals Tribunal in 1993, and the Senator Faulkner asked the Minister investigation by Lieutenant Colonel B J Salmon QC representing the Minister for Employment, in 1994, determined that ex-Major Warren was Education, Training and Youth Affairs, upon unfairly administered in respect of the termination notice, on 10 March 1998: of his appointment. An ex gratia payment was offered and was accepted by ex-Major Warren as Can details be provided, by federal electorate, of compensation. all grants provided under the Green Corps program. (2) There has been no investigation into ex- Senator Ellison—The Minister for Employ- Brigadier Hooper’s role in the termination of Ex- ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs Major Warren’s Army career. At the time of these has provided the following answer to the events ex-Brigadier Hooper filled the appointment of Military Secretary. He held this position from 3 honourable senator’s question: December 1979 until 10 December 1981. In The Green Corps (Young Australians for the performing the duties of his position he was Environment) program is not a grants program. The responsible for the career management of all Government has funded the program for $41.6 Regular Army officers. Ex-Brigadier Hooper was million over three years. not the delegate who authorised the Notice to Show Cause why ex-Major Warren’s appointment should The primary objective of the Green Corps is to not be terminated; this was done by the Chief of give young people with an interest in the environ- Personnel. He would, however, have provided the ment the opportunities of better quality training Chief of Personnel with information relating to ex- while working on environmental projects of signifi- Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2779 cance. Employment is a long term secondary Green Corps projects in accordance with criteria objective of the Green Corps. decided by the two Ministers responsible for the The Australian Trust for Conservation Volunteers program. Project Proposals must be endorsed by the (ATCV), as the contracted organisation has respon- Green Corps Advisory Committee. sibility for the administration of the Green Corps within parameters and accountability arrangements Projects details by electorate, of all Green Corps set out in the contract between it and DEETYA. projects from rounds one to five are provided at This responsibility includes selection of specific Attachment A.

ATTACHMENT A ROUND ONE GREEN CORP PROJECTS

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE NSW Sydney Sydney Sydney Dubbo Western Plains Zoo Parkes Broken Hill Kinchega National Parkes Park Merimbula Merimbula Eden-Monaro VIC Mount Macedon Mount Macedon Burke Mildura Australian Inland Mallee Botanical Gardens Melbourne Port Phillip Melbourne Ballarat Ballarat Ballarat QLD Toowoomba Darling Downs Groom Brisbane Tinchi Tamba Wet- Brisbane lands Reserve Malanda Upper Johnstone Kennedy River Townsville Ross River Herbert SA Naracoorte Naracoorte Caves Barker Adelaide Kangaroo Island Barker Port Augusta Flinders Ranges Grey WA Denham Shark Bay Kalgoorlie Karratha Millstream Kalgoorlie Chichester National Park Perth Penguin Island Perth TAS Bicheno Freycinet National Lyons Park Hobart Tasman Peninsula Lyons And Maria Island Huonville Huonville Franklin NT Mataranka Elsey National Park Northern Territory Darwin Casuarina Coastal Northern Territory Reserve ACT Canberra Namadgi/Tidbinbilla Namadgi 2780 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

ROUND TWO GREEN CORP PROJECTS

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE NSW Bathurst Macquarie River Calare Sydney Sydney Mackellar; Bradfield; War- ringah; North Sydney; Bennelong; Par- ramatta; Cook Hunter Valley Hunter Valley Paterson Lismore Big Scrub Page Dorrigo Dorrigo Cowper Wentworth Falls Wentworth Falls Macquarie Grafton Iluka Page Murwillumbah Fingal Heads Richmond Ben Boyd National Park Ben Boy National Eden-Monaro Park VIC Horsham Wimmera Wetlands Mallee Werribee Werribee Zoo Basalt Lalor Plains Mildura Mallee Fowl Survey Mallee Wangaratta Regent Honeyeater Indi Sale Sale Gippsland Swan Hill Swan Hill Mallee Pakenham Pakenham Mcmillan QLD Cooktown Mount Cook Nation- Leichhardt al Park Noosa Mary River Fairfax Lockyer Valley Glen Rock Groom Maleny Upper Mary River Fisher Redcliffe Mountains To Man- Petrie groves SA Adelaide Urban Forest Makin; Adelaide; Hind- marsh; Sturt; Boothby; Mayo; Kingston Broughton The Broughton Grey Catchment Mout Barker Mount Barker Mayo WA Norwegion Bay Norwegion Bay Kalgoorlie Kunnanurra Kimberleys Kalgoorlie Denmark South Coast Estu- Forrest aries West Cape Howe West Cape Howe Forrest TAS Derwent Valley Derwent Valley Franklin King Island King Island Braddon Tamar Valley Tamar Valley Bass Launceston North Esk River Bass Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2781

ROUND TWO GREEN CORP PROJECTS

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE NT Macdonnell Ranges Macdonnell Ranges Northern Territory Tennant Creek Tennant Creek Northern Territory Katherine River Katherine River Corri- Northern Territory dor ACT Canberra Murrumbidgee Corridor Namadgi

ROUND THREE GREEN CORP PROJECTS

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE NSW Gilgandra Gilgandra Gwydir Sydney Sydney Parramatta; Reid; Prospect; Fowler; Lowe; Sydney; Hughes; Werriwa; Grayndler; Kings- ford Smith; Wentworth; Lindsay; Mackellar; Warrin- gah Wollongong Lake Illawarra Throsby Nowra Bundanon Gilmore Byron Bay Broken Head Richmond Maitland Paterson Paterson VIC Seaford Seaford/Grantville Dunkley; Flinders Latrobe Valley Snake Island Gippsland Castlemaine Guildford Ballarat Ballarat Ballarat Ballarat QLD Townsville Townsville Herbert Rockhampton Yeppoon Capricornia Gold Coast Mount Tamborine Rankin Tully Tully Kennedy Atherton Tolga Scrub Kennedy Ipswich Ipswich Oxley Toowoomba Darling Downs Groom Gympie Gympie Wide Bay SA Naracoorte Naracoorte Barker Adelaide Kangaroo Island Barker Victor Harbour Mount Compass Barker Mount Gambier Robe Barker WA Perth Bayswater Perth Albany Fitzgerald River O’connor Denmark South Coast Wet- Forrest lands Geraldton/Canarvon Shark Bay Kalgoorlie TAS Hobart Glenorchy Denison Burnie Burnie Braddon Launceston Cataract Gorge Bass NT Darwin Darwin Northern Territory 2782 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE ACT Canberra Murrumbidgee River Namadgi Corridor

ROUND FOUR GREEN CORP PROJECTS

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE NSW Thredbo Snowy River Catch- Eden-Monaro ment Wyong Moonee Beach Shortland Lismore Big Scrub Page Wingham Wingham Lyne Casino Mallanganee Page Dorrigo Cowper Wentworth Falls Wentworth Falls Macquarie Sydney Taronga Zoo Warringah Yamba Shelley Beach Page VIC Hurstbridge Diamond Creek Mcewan; Scullin; Jaga Jaga Albury-Wodonga Albury-Wodonga Farrier; Indi Swan Hill Mallee Remnants Mallee Latrobe Valley Walhalla/Mt Baw Mcmillan Baw Cape Otway Cape Otway Corangamite Wonthaggi Powlett Catchment Gippsland Bright Mount Buffalo Indi QLD Canungra Canungra Rankin Mossman Daintree Leichhardt Cooktown Cooktown Scenic Leichhardt Rim Noosa Weyba Conservation Fairfax Park Maleny Blackall Range Fisher Roma Maranoa-Balonne Maranoa Region SA Yorketown Yorke Peninsula Wakefield Adelaide City Of Marion Boothby WA Albany Oyster Harbour Forrest Albany Stirling Range Na- O’connor; Forrest tional Park TAS Launceston Tamar Valley Bass Blackstone Heights Pitcher Parade Wet- Bass lands Devonport Tasmanian Arbor- Braddon etum Launceston North Esk River Bass NT Darwin Gregory National Northern Territory Park Katherine Katherine Northern Territory Jabiru Kakadu Northern Territory Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2783

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE Alice Springs Watarrka National Northern Territory Park ACT Canberra Googong Fore- Eden-Monaro; shore/Namadgi Na- Namadgi tional Park

ROUND FIVE GREEN CORP PROJECTS

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE NSW Sydney Concord Lowe Bathurst Evans Shire Calare Parkes Parkes Parkes South Windsor South Windsor Berowra; Lindsay; Macarthur; Macqua- rie Lismore/Alstonville Wilson & Tucki Page Tucki Reserve Parramatta Parramatta Parramatta; Bennelong Gosford Gosford Robertson VIC Bendigo Inglewood Smith Reid Training Warrnambool Framlingham Forest Wannon Mount Evelyn Lilydale Casey Maryborough Lexton Bendigo Benalla Benalla Indi Ballarat Creswick Ballarat QLD Tully Tully Kennedy Mackay Mirani Dawson Ravenshoe North Cedar Creek Kennedy Ipswich Ipswich Oxley Caloundra Caloundra Fisher Warwick Cunningham’s Gap Maranoa Tamborine Mountain Tamborine Mountain Rankin Toowoomba The North East Dar- Groom; Fisher; ling Downs Maranoa; Dickson SA Adelaide Hills Cleland Conserva- Sturt; Mayo tion Park Adelaide Mount Barker Mayo Burnside Chambers Gully Adelaide; Sturt Creek WA Perth Mundaring Pearce Karratha Millstream— Kalgoorlie Chichester National Park Denmark Denmark Forrest Bridgetown Blackwood River Forrest TAS Hobart Hobart Denison Launceston Launceston Bass NT Katherine Tufa Dam Northern Territory 2784 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

STATE/TERRITORY BASE SITE PROJECT ELECTORATE Alice Springs Simpson’s Gap Northern Territory ACT Canberra Tidbinbilla/Black Namadgi; Fraser; Mountain Canberra

Parliamentary Departments: Audits ties also encompass expenditure incurred by a Minister which is included in an agency’s financial (Question No. 1100) statements. Senator Murray asked the Special Minister (4) The Members of Parliament (Staff) Act 1984 of State, upon notice, on 17 March 1998: (MOPS Act) does not appropriate moneys for expenditure. Expenditure that arises as a result of (1) Who has responsibility for independently appointments made in accordance with the MOPS auditing the departments of the House of Represen- Act is met from annual appropriations of the tatives, the Senate and Joint House. Department of Finance and Administration. The (2) Who has responsibility for independently Auditor-General is responsible for auditing expendi- auditing members and electorate office expenditure, ture made by the Department under those appropri- and senators and electorate office expenditure. ations. However, the Auditor-General Act 1997 (3) Who has responsibility for independently specifically excludes the activities of people auditing the offices of Ministers of State. employed under the MOPS Act from the Auditor- General’s performance audit mandate. (4) Who has responsibility for independently auditing expenditure under the Members of Parlia- (5) The Auditor-General may conduct audits of ment (Staff) Act 1984. the financial statements and performance of Commonwealth agencies including the departments (5) Are any of the stated offices or departments of the Parliament. In addition, the Auditor-General independently audited in terms of financial state- may, by arrangement with any person or body, ments audits, which include efficiency audits and undertake financial statements audits, conduct per- project performance audits, (in each case, distin- formance audits or provide services of a kind guish between regular audit processes and by normally performed by auditors. The reporting ar- arrangement or occasional audits and provide rangements for those audits would be determined details of the reporting details on audits undertak- as part of the arrangement entered into between the en). Auditor-General and the person or body. More (6) Who has authority to undertake and order generally, the Auditor-General may report to the audits of expenditure by: (a) ministers and ministers Parliament on any matter at any time. staff; and (b) parliamentarians and parliamentarian (6) The Auditor-General has authority to under- staff. take audits of expenditure from money appropriated Senator Minchin—The answer to the by the Parliament as set out in the answers to honourable senator’s question is as follows: questions (1), (2) and (3). The Auditor-General, in determining what matters are to be audited, will (1) The Auditor-General is responsible for have regard to the audit priorities of the Parliament auditing the parliamentary departments. as determined by the Joint Committee of Public (2) The Auditor-General’s financial statement Accounts and Audit. However, under the Auditor- audit responsibilities encompass expenditure of General Act 1997, the Auditor-General is not public moneys incurred by Members and Senators, subject to direction from anyone in relation to: (a) including electorate office expenditure, as that whether or not a particular audit is to be conducted; expenditure relates to, and is reported in, depart- or (b) the way in which a particular audit is to be mental financial statements. Expenditure by Mem- conducted; or (c) the priority to be given to any bers and Senators could also be audited in the particular matter. context of a performance audit by the Auditor- General of the administration of the agency from Veterans’ Vehicle Assistance Scheme whose annual appropriation this expenditure is (Question No. 1104) incurred. Senator Bartlett asked the Minister repre- (3) The Auditor-General has responsibility for auditing the payment of public moneys to senting the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, Ministers’ offices, but it is a matter for each upon notice, on 20 March 1998: Minister to determine the way in which he or she (1) (a) How does the Veterans’ Vehicle Assist- operates his or her office. The scope of the Audi- ance Scheme work; and (b) what are the eligibility tor-General’s financial statement audit responsibili- requirements for the scheme. Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2785

(2) What assistance is available under the vehicle and a further grant available every two scheme, for example, can it cover the cost of years to assist with replacing the vehicle. If a accessories fitted to vehicles for those who require veteran requires driving devices to enable him or them and does it cover the dealer delivery fees. her to drive the vehicle, these are fitted with no (3) Is relief from sales tax provided under the additional cost to the veteran. Modifications such scheme; if so: (a) does this apply to all veterans; as ramps, removal of seats to accommodate a and (b) does the veteran pay sales tax and have it wheelchair, hoists etc may also be provided at no refunded or is the sales tax not added to the cost to the veteran if they are necessary to enable purchase price by the vehicle dealer. the veteran to derive benefit from the vehicle. (4) How do discounts or special offers provided No separate provision is made for dealer delivery by vehicle dealers or manufacturers affect the fees. These costs are included in the grant amounts. assistance provided under the scheme. (3) (a) Yes. Any veteran who is within the (5) Can examples be provided which show how scheme has relief from sales tax. Other veterans, the final cost of the vehicle is calculated and also such as veterans who are classified as Totally and show the level of assistance that is provided Permanently Incapacitated (TPI) or certain ampu- through the scheme. tees who do not meet the medical eligibility for the scheme may also have relief from sales tax under Senator Newman—The Minister for Item 96 in Schedule 1 of the Sales Tax (Exemp- Veterans’ Affairs has provided the following tions and Classifications) Act 1922. answer to the honourable senator’s question: (b) An eligible veteran does not pay sales tax and (1) (a) The Vehicle Assistance Scheme provides it is not added to the purchase price. veterans who are suffering from severe service- related mobility impairment with a grant to pur- (4) As payment is made direct to vehicle dealers, chase a suitable motor vehicle with the appropriate only the actual purchase price is considered in the driving devices, a yearly allowance to assist with grant. Vehicle dealers are required to complete a the running and maintenance of the vehicle, and a statement showing any discounts or offers which further grant available every two years to assist affect the recommended retail price. with replacing the vehicle. (5) Yes. The maximum grant towards an initial (b) A veteran is eligible for assistance under the motor vehicle provided under the scheme is based scheme if the veteran is incapacitated from war- on the higher recommended retail price (less sales caused injury or war-caused disease by reason of: tax) of a Ford or Holden automatic station wagon fitted with air conditioning, dual air-bags, anti-lock . amputation of both legs above the knee; braking system, electric windows and cruise . amputation of one leg above the knee and, in control. addition: (i) amputation of the other leg at or The current benchmark value for an initial above the ankle and amputation of one arm at vehicle is $31, 923. It is based on a Holden "Ac- or above the wrist; or (ii) amputation of both claim" vehicle fitted with the extras. While a arms at or above the wrists; veteran may purchase an initial motor vehicle in . complete paraplegia resulting in the total loss excess of the benchmark value, any amount over of voluntary power in both legs to the extent and above this value is generally the responsibility that there is insufficient power for purposeful of the veteran. use for stance or locomotion; or However, if the Repatriation Commission is . a condition that, in the opinion of the Repatri- satisfied that the nature of the veteran’s incapacity ation Commission, is similar in effect or from a war-caused condition is such that the severity to the amputations described in the provision of a more expensive vehicle is necessary, first two dot points. it may authorise payment of part or whole of the A leg that has been rendered permanently and difference in cost between the authorised maximum wholly useless above the knee is treated as if it had value and the actual purchase price of the vehicle. been amputated above the knee. A replacement grant is available at two year In addition to the eligibility criteria based on intervals to contribute towards the replacement of mobility impairment, a current driver’s licence must a motor vehicle provided for, or contributed to, by be held by the veteran, or the veteran’s partner, or the Scheme. the veteran’s carer. If the veteran is unable to drive The maximum replacement grant (MRG) is a vehicle, he or she must have the capacity of calculated as the difference between the benchmark being readily transported in the vehicle. value (BV) and the recommended value (RV) of (2) The scheme provides an initial grant to the vehicle being exchanged. The RV used is that purchase a motor vehicle, a yearly allowance to published in the current industry guide on the value assist with the running and maintenance of the of used vehicles (Glass’ Passenger Vehicle Guide). 2786 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998

So the formula is MRG = BV—RV. The value of (1) (a) What internal or external surveys, re- a replacement grant cannot exceed the value of the search or other forms of information has been maximum replacement grant. gathered on the accuracy of recording cancellations The actual replacement grant, i.e. the grant resulting from data matching review activities; (b) actually paid, is the lesser of the maximum replace- what were the findings of any such activities; and ment grant and the value either: (c) what percentage of the recording of ‘cancellations’ from data matching review activities . cited by the motor dealer on the Dealer State- were found to be incorrect. ment as the exchange value in the event of a trade-in; or (2) (a) What internal or external surveys, re- search or other forms of information has been . calculated by subtracting the value the veteran gathered on the accuracy of recording cancellations received in a private sale from the benchmark resulting from employment declaration form review value. activities; (b) what were the findings of any such The veteran’s statement to this effect is included activities; and (c) what percentage of the recording in the Application Form. Either of these statements of ‘cancellations’ from employment declaration must be completed and signed by the appropriate form review activities were found to be incorrect. party before a replacement grant is approved. (3) (a) What internal or external surveys, re- For example: A veteran applies for assistance search or other forms of information has been under the scheme. After the veteran is assessed as gathered on the accuracy of recording cancellations eligible he orders a new vehicle from a dealer. The resulting from any other review activities; (b) what recommended retail price of the vehicle (less sales were the findings of any such activities; and (c) tax) is $35,000. As the initial grant has a bench- what percentage of the recording of ‘cancellations’ mark value of $31,923 the veteran is required to from any other review activities were found to be make up the $3,077 difference as no special incorrect. circumstances apply. (4) What is regarded as the maximum acceptable After two years, the veteran decides to trade in level of statistical error in recording cancellations the vehicle with a dealer for a new vehicle which from review activities. has a recommended retail price of $33,500. Accord- (5) How do the above findings affect the accura- ing to Glass’s Guide, the veteran’s vehicle has a cy of the quarterly compliance reports tabled in recommended value (RV) of $22,000. The maxi- Parliament by the minister. mum of the replacement grant cannot exceed $9,923. This is calculated by subtracting the recom- Senator Newman—The answer to the mended value from the benchmark value, i.e. honourable senator’s question is as follows: $31,923 less $22,000. (1) (a) Area level ‘best practice’ examinations The dealer, however, discounts the new vehicle relating to Employment Declaration Form (EDF) by $1,500 which makes the actual cost of the new review activity, plus the Australian National Audit car $32,000. The veteran is offered a trade-in of Office (ANAO) and other review checks mentioned $22,500, making the exchange value $9,500. As in the answers to parts (2) and (3) below. this amount is less than the maximum replacement (2) (a)Examinations of EDF review work has grant, $9,500 becomes the value of the grant paid been undertaken at an individual Area Support to the veteran to replace his or her vehicle. Office level with the aim of identifying the applica- Generally, the maximum replacement grant is not tion of best practices and assessing the appropriate- expected to be more than $16,000. In extreme ness of result recording. cases, the Repatriation Commission can authorise External checking of all review activities has a greater amount if, in all the circumstances of the been undertaken by the Australian National Audit case, it is considered necessary. Office (ANAO) for the purpose of annual financial A yearly in advance grant of $780 is available to statements. The ANAO re-tests a sample of com- an eligible veteran under the Vehicle Assistance pleted reviews to ensure that the level of error in Scheme to assist with the running and maintenance decision-making is acceptable and that the results of the vehicle. of the reviews can be relied on. (2) (b) For the 1996-97 financial year, the ANAO Data Matching Program concluded that the review process was satisfactory, (Question No. 1107) providing adequate controls over the validity of income support payments for financial statement Senator Bartlett asked the Minister for audit purposes. Social Security, upon notice, on 25 March As an integral component of its normal adminis- 1998: tration, Centrelink has ongoing measures in place Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2787 to ensure the accuracy of the recording of customer (1) Has the Minister received confirmation that information on its systems. This is facilitated by Tasmania will be participating at the Expo 2000 checking a minimum 10% random sample of all World Trade Fair in Hanover, Germany. determinations by a second officer through the (2) If Tasmania is participating in Expo 2000, Procedure and Accuracy Checking (PAC) system. what contribution in cost terms has been agreed as PAC monitoring since April 1997 has shown an part of the sharing arrangements announced by the accuracy rate for all review work of between 97% Prime Minister on 1 December 1997. and 98%. It must be emphasised that this apparent 2%-3% ‘error rate’ covers a variety of administra- (3) Is it expected that each State and Territory tive shortcomings, not just those relating to the participating at the Expo will be able to individual- coding of payment cancellations. Review coordina- ly promote its particular region. tors at all levels of Centrelink continually monitor (4) Has the Minister received any indications of the quality and appropriateness of review work, interest from the Tasmanian private sector with correct mistakes found and arrange for the on-going regard to the Expo; if so, which businesses have training of staff. indicated an interest. (2) (c) The Area by Area EDF ‘best practice’ Senator Minchin—the Minister for Sport examinations identified a total of some 517 cancel- and Tourism has provided the following lations as having been inappropriately recorded in answer to the honourable senator’s question: some way, including cases involving inadequate documentation by staff rather than an incorrectly (1) No. claimed result. Action has been taken on (2) The Commonwealth is not privy to the details Centrelink’s review system to amend any inappro- of the States/Territories cost sharing agreement priate results and staff advised of the correct being negotiated by Premier Borbidge. procedures to follow in the future. Statistically (3) A fully integrated image of Australia will be valid national outcomes cannot be drawn from developed consistent with the Expo 2000 theme of these Area based ‘best practice’ examinations. ‘Humankind—Nature—Technology’. However, it (3) (a) Other on-going review activity is subject is envisaged that the States, Territories and industry to the same level of checking and monitoring as could undertake targeted promotion in their own described in the answer to part (2) (b) above. right to a specific audience in the non-public area of the pavilion. (3) (b) As noted previously, as part of day to day operation, adjustments are continually being made (4) No. to records on Centrelink’s review system to ensure it presents the most accurate picture available of Logging and Woodchipping review results. Any review entries which are (Question No. 1111) deleted or amended as a result of this process are either excluded from or appropriately adjusted in Senator Brown asked the Minister for the terms of reported results. Environment, upon notice, on 30 March 1998: (4) Centrelink does not work to a maximum With reference to the comprehensive regional acceptable level of statistical error in its recording assessments (CRAs) of New South Wales forests: activities. We are aware, however, that the ANAO (1) Has the Minister advised the Member for generally regard statistical errors in excess of 5% Page, Mr Causley, that delays in the completion of as material. socio-economic assessments in New South Wales (5) As noted above, it is normal practice for are the fault of the New South Wales Government, Centrelink to continually remove or adjust any not the Commonwealth Government or the inappropriate review recording system entries Commonwealth Department > Primary Industries identified before results are reported. Notwithstand- and Energy. ing this practice, even if all previously identified (2) Is the Minister concerned that actions and inappropriate entries had been included, the quan- inactions by the Commonwealth are threatening the tum of them is not such as to adversely impact on successful completion of CRAs in north-eastern the overall accuracy of the quarterly compliance New South Wales by the end of 1998. reports tabled in Parliament. (3) Will the Minister: (a) restate the Government’s commitment to the National Forest Expo 2000 World Trade Fair Policy Statement goals of establishing a compre- (Question No. 1109) hensive, adequate and representative reserve system and implementing ecologically-sustainable logging Senator Denman asked the Minister repre- outside the reserves; (b) quickly and efficiently senting the Minister for Sport and Tourism approve and fund essential projects, such as upon notice, on 26 March 1998: regional economic studies, which must be com- 2788 SENATE Wednesday, 13 May 1998 menced and concluded as soon as possible; (c) Senator Parer—The answer to the honour- accept and adopt the revised New South Wales able senator’s question is as follows: boundaries; and (d) ensure the completion of the regional assessments by the end of 1998. (1) and (3) are matters for the Queensland Government. Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- (2) The National Geoscience Mapping Accord able senator’s question is as follows: (NGMA) is a co-operative program of geoscience (1) I do not recall discussing this matter with the mapping between the States and Commonwealth Member for Page, Mr Causley. which was established by the Australian and New (2) No, the Commonwealth is working closely Zealand Minerals and Energy Council (ANZMEC) with the NSW Government to ensure successful in 1990. The rationale for the Accord is the need completion of all remaining regions in a timely to renew the national geoscience infrastructure by manner. a program of modern geoscience mapping to aid sustainable development and resource exploration (3) (a) The Commonwealth Government remains into the next century. committed to implementing the National Forest Policy Statement, which provides for the creation The objectives of the Accord are to: of a world class comprehensive, adequate and . Encourage energy and mineral resource explor- representative reserve system, and ensures the ation in Australia. development of a viable internationally competitive . Help make exploration in Australia more cost and ecologically sustainable forest products indus- effective. try. . Assist responsible resource and environmental (b) The Commonwealth is looking to approve management. and fund projects in all NSW RFA regions as quickly as possible, consistent with due process and Geoscientific studies in the North Australian responsible management of Commonwealth funds. Basins Resource Evaluation project (NABRE) commenced in 1995. This NGMA project is (c) The Commonwealth government advised the designed to influence the economic development of responsible NSW Ministers that the Commonwealth Northern Australia. considered that the RFA process would be best served by retention of the current jointly agreed NABRE aims to provide exploration companies region boundaries. with a state-of-the-art regional overview of the geological evolution of this part of northern Aus- (d) The Commonwealth is working closely with tralia, the type of study necessary to increase the the NSW Government to ensure successful comple- probability of discovering additional metal and tion of all remaining regions in a timely manner. energy resources in the area. NABRE is a co- Mineral Exploration operative initiative of the Commonwealth Govern- ment, the Queensland and Northern Territory (Question No. 1113) Governments and includes collaborative studies with university and mineral industry geoscientists. Senator Brown asked the Minister for Resources and Energy, upon notice, on 30 Outputs from the NABRE project will be avail- March 1998: able to Australian and overseas exploration com- panies, Government, University researchers and the With reference to the article ‘Elizabeth Creek general public. Products are not sold on a cost hailed as new Century’ in the Australian of 24 recovery basis. However, money invested by the March 1998: Commonwealth and State Governments is recov- (1) (a) Which indigenous groups have been ered several times over by the generation of interest consulted about the Elizabeth Creek prospect and in new exploration. Over the next year the NABRE the exploration permit application process; (b) when project is scheduled to produce both digital and were those consultations held; and (c) what was the hard copy datasets all with the aim of reducing outcome. exploration risk and assisting the process of sound land use management in this area. The data pack- (2) Will any successful explorer or deposit- age accompanying the Elizabeth Creek Prospect exploiter be required, according to the user-pays represents one of these products. principle, to pay for that component of the $4 million mapping project relating to the region and Senator Tierney: Office Relocation any other public costs incurred. (Question No. 1127) (3) What environmental, social or economic studies have been done on the potential impact of Senator Neal asked the Special Minister of exploration or mining in this area. State, upon notice, on 6 April 1998: Wednesday, 13 May 1998 SENATE 2789

Has Senator Tierney relocated his electorate (5) In each instance what has been the cost of the office within the past 4 months; if so: (a) where to; work undertaken. (b) who owns the leased building; (c) what is the period of the lease and any options attached to it; Senator Newman—The answer to the (d) who decided on the location of the office; (e) honourable senator’s question is as follows: who negotiated the lease; (f) what is the total floor (1) to (5) In my answer to the Senator’s original space leased; (g) what was the term of the lease on question on notice of 16 October (No 908), I the previous premises; (h) what was the cost of indicated that I was not prepared to authorise the sign writing; and (i) what is the average cost of expenditure of money, time and effort to assemble electorate office sign writing. the information required to answer the question. This was my decision rather than my Department’s. Senator Minchin—The answer to the My decision was based on the scope of the honourable senator’s question is as follows: question and, in particular, the timeframe which Senator Tierney has not relocated his electorate covers a large volume of research activity, includ- office within the past 4 months. ing a period of some 15 months before the estab- lishment of Centrelink. In addition, to answer part Department of Social Security: Research (2) of the question would have required the colla- tion of a large amount of detailed information. My (Question No. 1140) decision also took account of the fact that succes- Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for sive annual reports of the Department of Social Social Security, upon notice, on 17 April Security contain detailed information on non- 1998: training research undertaken by consultants. (1) Given that nine departments have now an- Budget Forward Estimates swered in full the questions placed on notice on 16 Senator Robert Ray asked The Treasurer, October 1997 (questions on notice 902-916, Senate on 8 April 1998 (Hansard page No. 2348) the Notice Paper of 21 October 1997) relating to following question without notice: qualitative and quantitative research, on what basis was it decided that the department would not Since the 1997-98 Budget, what additional authorise the money, time and effort involved to commitments has the government made to budget forward outlays. assemble the information required to provide an answer to the question. Senator Kemp—The Treasurer has provid- (2) What qualitative or quantitative research has ed the following information in answer to the been undertaken by the department and its agencies honourable senator’s question: since 3 March 1996. Table 8 and Appendix A of the 1997-98 Mid- (3) (a) What was the nature of the research Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook, published in undertaken, (sample sizes, questionnaire length, December 1997, provided details of policy deci- sions taken by the Government between the 1997- evaluation); and (b) to whom were the results of 98 Budget and 12 December 1997. Comprehensive the research available. information on policy decisions taken since that (4) In each instance, which firm or firms have time will be published in the 1998-99 Budget to be been engaged to undertake this work. brought down on 12 May 1998.