[COUNCIL.]

Question Put and a division taken with $24,946 made by the Australian the following result:- Dairy Produce Hoard to the Re- Ayes -22 search Trust Fund, for approved Mr. Boyd!l Dr. Roen projects in connection with the Mr. Brand Mr. Lewis dairying industry? Mr. Burt Mr. W. A. Manning Mr. Court Mr. Marshall The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: Mr. Craig Mr. Mitchell Mr. Crommelin Mr. Mnton The total grant of $24,946 made Mr. Dunn Mr. O'Neil by the Australian Dairy Produce Mr. Durack Mr. Runciman Board during 1965-66 included Mr. Elliott Mr. Rushton Mr. Grayden Mr. Williams $4,663 related to projects for the Mr. Guthrie Mr. I. W. Manning year 1964-65, but which was not (Teller) received until after the 1st July. Noes-i? 1965. Mr. Bickerton Mr. Kelly Mr. Brady Mr. Moir The expenditure of $18,590 was Mr. Davies Mr. Norton made up as follows:- Mr. Evans Mr. Rhatigan Mr. Graham Mr. Sewell Mr. Hall Mr. Tome Specialised training Mr. Hlawke Mr. Tonkin graduates (refund) 134 Mr. W. Hegney Mr. may Mr. Jamieson. (Teller) Nutrition of pasture Pairs and fodder crops .. 5,926 Ayes Noes Grass driers 2,992 Mr. Hart Mr. Currani Dairy cattle infertility 7,688 Mr. O'Connor Mr. Fletcher Mr. Nalder Mr. Rowberry Seasonal trends in live Mr- Hutchinson Mr. J. Hegney weight of dairy cattle 1,850 Question thus passed. $18,590 House adjourned at 1.26 a.m. (Thursday) Irrevocable commitments amount- ing to $1,033 will be carrted over to 1966-67. S UPERPHO SPHATE Merredin: Supplies from Esperane i~rgisalur Thuril and Metropolitan Area Thursday, the 27th October, 1966 2. The Hon. R. H. C. STUBBS asked the Minister for Mines: CONTENTS that 5,000 tons of Pg (1) Is it a fact BILLS- superphosphate will be railed Fluoridation or Public Water Supplies BiI-2r. .1774 from Esperance to Merredin at Local Government Aol Amendment Bill-Report.... 1774 the rate of five train loads per QUESTIONS ON NOTICE- week, until the consignment is Agriculture and Horticulture In South-Wast: Re- completed, in the next few weeks? search In High Rainfall Areas...... 1773 Dairying- (2) What is the freight rate per ton Commonwealth Grant to Promote Efficiency ... 1773 to Merredin from- Grant by Australian Dairy Produce Board for Research...... 1772 (a) Esperance; and Mall to the Armed Fos in Vietnm : Dasat6s. (b) metropolitan area? ractory Delivery ...... 1773 Standard Gauge Railway : Southern Cross-ool- (3) What is the reason that super- gardle-Mfali and Goods Services to Small Centres 177 Phosphate is to be supplied from Saparpbosphateedin : Supplies from Riper- Esperance when the usual flow of foe and Mletropolitan Area...... 1772 supply is the metropolitan area? (4) Will it mean more expensive The PRESIDENT (The Hon. L. C. Diver) superphosphate to users in the took the Chair at 2.30 p.m., and read Merredin area? prayers. The HOn. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: (1) Railage to Merredin from Esper- QUESTIONS (6): ON NOTICE ance works will commence on the DAIRYING 31st October. No decision has been made as to the total super- Grant by Australian Dairy Produce phosphate to be delivered from Board for Research Esperance but the whole of the 1. The Hon. V. J. FERRY asked the 5,000 tons will not come from Minister for Mines: these works. Will the Minister advise what (2) (a) $6.38 per ton. purposes and related amounts (b) $4.16 per ton. comprised the total of $18,591 ex- (3) For this initial trial, stocks are Pendedl from the 1965-66 grant of available at Esperance for im- [Thursday, 27 October, 1966.1 1171

mediate railage. Adequate stocks AGRICULTURE ANT) will be retained for the Esperance HORTICULTURE IN SOUTH-WEST district. Research in High Rainfall Areas (4) No. 5. The Hon. V. J. FERRY asked the Min- DAIRYING ister for Mines: (1) Further to my question on Wed- Commonwealth Grant to Promote nesday, the 31st August, 1966, is Efficiency the Government now in a position 3. The Hon. V. J. FERRY asked the Min- to make a decision for the purchase ister for Mines: of a property situated between Manjimup and Pemberton for the Will the Minister advise what pur- purpose of carrying out agricul- poses and related amounts com- tural research in the high rainfall prised the total of $44,909 ex- area? pended from the allocation of $50,000 made to Western Austra- (2) If the answer to (1) is "Yes," what lia in the 1965-66 Commonwealth is the future of the existing re- grant of $700,000 to the States for search station at West Manjimup? the promotion of efficiency within the dairying industry? The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: (1) Arrangements for the purchase of the Property are expected to be finalised shortly. Grade herd testing 16,764 Herd recording sire survey 4,408 (2) This has not yet been decided. Pasture demonstrations- 5,318 Films and visual aids 5,183 MAIL TO THE ARMED FORCES Publications ... .. 1,833 Milking machine survey . 307 IN VIETNAM Radio broadcasting .. 896 Unsatisfactory Delivery Artificial breeding 1,310 Infra-red milk analyser 280 6. The Hon, W. F. WILLESEE asked the Equipment-Pasture Minister for Justice:. demonstration 343 Has the Minister received any Mastitis. survey 4,866 official reply to my request on irrigation demonstrations. 124 Tuesday, the 4th October, 1966, to Half salary of journalist 2,966 make representations to the Fed- Winter school, cheddar eral Government for a better mail cheese technology .. 311 delivery service to the Australian troops in Vietnam? $44,909 The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: The balance of $5,091 was irrevoc- The Minister for the Army has ably committed at the 30th June, stated to me by letter, and I 1986, and it is expected the Com- quote- monwealth will approve of this My Department and officers of amount being carried over to the Postmaster General's De- 1966-67. partment are maintaining a constant watch over this ser- STANDARD GAUGE RAILWAY: vice to ensure that the move- SOUTHERN CROSS-COOLGARDIE ment of mail to and from Viet- nam is effected as expedit- Mail and Goods Services to iously as possible. A further Small Centres indication of the concern with 4. The Eon. J. J, GARRIGAN asked the which the Army holds this Minister for Mines: Problem is that the Director When the standard gauge railway of Postal Services for the is completed and in operation. Arnmy has just completed a what arrangements will be made tour of duty in the area and for mall services, and the supply has carried out Intensive in- of perishables and other goods, to vestigations with a view to the small towns and pumping effecting any Improvements stations adjacent to the railway, possible. between Southern Cross and Cool- I am enclosing a copy of two gardle? press statements I have issued which set out how the differ- The H-on. A. P. GRIF7ITH replied: ent categories of mall are Consideration baa been given to handled to and from Vietnam, the matter but no definite decision If you have any specific case has been made. Reasonable pro- and will let me have the numn- visions will be made in good time. ber, rank and full namne of the 1774 1774[COUNCIL.)

soldier concerned, I will have effect of fluoride, and in a joint statement the matter investigated ur- they said- gently. This is probably the first indication I would like to table the Press of the toxicity of fluoride in high statements referred to. dilution to human and animal cells The statements were tabled. in a "test tube" environment. The test tube conditions may not LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT reproduce the conditions which exist AMENDMENT BILL in the human body, where cells may be protected from the protective Report organisms. Report of Committee adopted. Commenting on the experiments Dr. Berry said- FLUORIDATION OF PUBLIC WATER We wvent into this expecting to find SUPPLIES BILL nothing in it. Second Reading So it will be seen that they went into this matter fully thinking their research Debate resumed from the 26th October. would reveal nothing. He said he would THE HON. J. DOLAN (South-East like to see research carried out by institu- Metropolitan) E2.41 P.m.]: Bearing in tions better suited to carry out research mind your comments yesterday when the into fluoride toxicity in living animals Minister was moving the second .reading than they were, of this Bill, Mr. President, may I assure So I submit in the first place that this you that, speaking personally, I will act is one lot of evidence I can produce in as always and preserve the dignity of the answer to the Minister's question, "Is it House. I would like to start by discussing sate?" The Minister also read a letter he certain aspects of the Minister's second received from Dr. Helge Berg gren of reading speech so that the H1ouse can Stockholm in which was disclosed the fact measure up and see that I am in opposi- that Hugo Theorell and the Government tion to the Bill. I will refer to some of had changed their minds about fluorida- the matters in the same spirit as the Min- tion. I would point out, in all modesty, ister did yesterday when he wound up his that actually that information is second second reading speech and said, "With hand, in that it has Come from somebody absolute and complete confidence I comn- else. mend the Bill to the House." I also say I propose to read a copy of a cable that that with the utmost sincerity I oppose was sent to the honourable member for the Bill. the Australian Capital Territory, Mr. On page 7 of the Minister's notes he Fraser, by Professor Theorell. It Is dated asks, "is it safe?" 'He then goes on to the 13th May, 1966. This is what Hugo say- Theorell himself had to say- In this sense I know of no auth- Do not oppose or favour fluoridation oritative body which has not regarded outside Sweden. Agree with the fluoridation of one part per million Swedish Medical Board that results in drinking water as perfectly sate. on further scientific investigations are The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What was your necessary before taking final decision. reference to page 7? That, I think, is pri-ma facie evidence that The Hon. J. DOLAN: I was referring Hugo Theorell has not changed his mind, to page 7 of the Minister's notes. and that he feels further research is The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I think page necessary. 7 will not be distinguishable in Hansard, The Minister also referred to the efforts because a copy of the notes is given to of the Australian Dental Association (W.A. you for convenience. Branch), and said the dental authorities The Hon. J. DOLAN: I would now like -were making every effort to arrive at some to refer to the finding by reputable oxford sort of blue print for a dental health pro- investigators in 1963; particularly of two gramme suitable to this State. I mention men and one woman. These three oxford that because later I wish to give some medical workers who carried out the re- examples which will show that so far as search were Roger Berry and Dr. Pay the dental authorities in this State are Whitney, Fellows of Radiobiology, and concerned, some of their activities disclose Wilfred Trillwood, Director of Pharmaceu- that there is a suitable alternative to what tical Services at the Oxford United is proposed in the Bill. Hospitals. Their findings are published in rhe Minister then asked in the course the British Medical Journal of the 26th of his speech, "Is fluoridation an infringe- October, 1963. The experiments, which ment of civil liberties?" In that respect lasted two months, were carried out in I would like to quote the opinion of a very the radiobiological laboratory at the well-known Liberal member of the Federal Churchill Hospital, oxford. They believe Parliament. Mr. Killen, who some members that some research is necessary into the may recall was, very kind to the present [Thursday, 27 October, 1966.] 17'75

Liberal Government when he was the last I notice, too, that the Government in- Liberal member elected in 1961. and gave tends to make fluoride tablets available the Liberals a majority of one in the House. through local sources in districts where He had this to say- fluoridated water will not be available. I have a right to maintain that this I feel the Government could have done is a philosophical argument. I believe thi long ago. that if the responsibility for dental I next wish to refer to Mr. Bonney, care is left with individuals, that is the Dental Health Education Officer where it should properly be left. If who, for the last few years, has attended the philosophical concept is going to to the care of dental health. I would be that we should have a totalitarian like to make reference to a couple of find- society in which matters such as the ings of Mr. Bonney. In the first instance, eating of sugar, the drinking of alcohol, he examined the teeth of 47 children the driving of cars, indeed the doing attending the Alfred Cove kindergarten of all sorts of things that wreak havoc and had this to say- to the human body and to human Forty-seven children attending the society should be resolved and settled Alfred Cove kindergarten had their according to the establishment of the teeth examined yesterday and 33 were day, then, I say to those who support found to be free of tooth decay. that concept that, on every possible occasion, I will savage it and give them These results, which represented 70 per no rest whatsoever. Right from Plato cent. perfect mouths, were described by to Aquinas and Burke and Mill the Mr. Bonney as being wonderful: and I basic proposition of all political en- would support his statement 100 per cent. deavour has been the relationship of That figure is in excess of the result the individual to the State. expected to be achieved by the use of fluo- ride. Continuing with Mr. Bonney's re- That concept is as real today as it was marks- 1,000 or even 2,000 years ago. That is the "From surveys made throughout Aus- opinion, not of a supporter of my party, tralia we would normally expect to but of a Liberal member in the Federal find 315 decayed, missing or filled House and a man who has studied this teeth in a group of 47 children," he matter very thoroughly. said. The Hon. N. McNeill: That is debatable. "We found only 46 teeth affected The Hon. J. DOLAN: That may be, but by decay in this group." the honourable member will have his Mr. Bonney said most of the parents chance to do that later on. I do not want had given their children fluoride tab- to say anything that would infringe any- lets since birth. Some mothers had thing the Minister said, but in his speech told him they took fluoride tablets he stated- during pregnancy. It is also interesting in this issue I would submit that that is also clear that a party founded on the principle evidence there is a remedy for dental that the freedom of the individual decay which rests in the hands of parents; must always be secondary to the good and they should accept the responsibility. of the State should be using civil If they do the same as the mothers in liberties as the main prop of its op- the Alfred Cove area did with their young position. children, we can expect startling results I would ask the Minister if he were re- as far as dental decay is concerned. ferring to our party? That was one case. Here is another The Hon. 0. C. Macicinnon: Yes. fromt Mr. Bonney who, of course, is doing The Hon. J. DOLAN: I thought he was. marvellous work, which I appreciate in I would like to tell members that so far every way. This is what he had to say- as the members of the party to which the An examination of the teeth of Minister refers are concerned, on this issue children at the Como kindergarten they are free to speak as they please, and yesterday was claimed to give a start- vote as they please. I would be happy if I ling example of the effect of fluoride, knew the same state of affairs existed with a good diet, and oral hygiene on other members instead of their having children's teeth. been brainwashed to the extent that they The head of the Department of will support this issue blindly. I am not Dental Health Education, Mr. C. H. prepared to accept a statement of the type Bonney, said that of the 51 children I have just quoted, because our members examined. 33 were free from any are perfectly free to vote as they wish on form of dental decay. this matter; and as the debate progresses. Thirty-six of these children had members will find there will be those on our side of the House who will have views been taking fluoride tablets, some entirely different from mine. I a6M regularly, some off and on. sure they will be absolutely sincere in what I would suggest that the three out of they think, just as I am sincere in the the 36 who were not completely free from arguments I am putting forward. dental decay were three who only took 1776 1776cOUNCIIL.]

the tablets off and on, and not regularly. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Probably more so. Continuing- I am reminded of a story I learned Mr. Bonney said this marked im- in history a long while ago about provement on the average dental Pitt, the British Prime Minister. Pitt health of children in the 4-5 age was looking for a general to lead an army group showed that parents and chil- into Canada and perhaps win Canada for dren were becoming increasingly the British Empire. He eventually select- aware of the advantages of healthy ed General Wolfe, and Wolfe was put in teeth. charge. Pitt had the remarkable genius I could not agree more. The article goes of being able to pick a man for a certain on- job, and those picked men usually made a Mr. Bonney said the Coma kinder- success of the job. However, his chiefs-of- garten was not in the area where staff told him that he had selected a rat- free fluoride tablets were available. bag and a crank. Pitt replied to his chiefs- I suggest that, if free fluoride tablets of -staff and said that if Wolfe was mad he had been available, particularly for the wished he would bite some of the other Poorer members of the community, in- generals, and then better results might be stead of 33 out of 51 being free from achieved. M~y reply to people who refer any form of dental decay, the percentage to anti-fluoridationists as cranks would be would have been higher. I have quoted the same. both of these instances to show there is I also take the view that with people a way in -which dental decay can be with very strong. views there might be times arrested, without taking away from parents when their utterances show that they are their right and prerogative to treat their so impassioned in their beliefs, they cannot children on an individual basis and in see any other side of the question. accordance with their beliefs. So that 1 can put this case in true per- While on that Point, there is the ques- spective, I would refer to the opinions of tion I raised a while ago about a safe two people who are in favour of fluorida- dose. Dr. Polya took issue with an article tion. They are People who hold positions in the Weekend News of the 15th October, where they can influence thousands. Under and immediately wrote in rebuttal of it. the heading, 'May his teeth rot," one had As no doubt other members have done, this to say- I have read dozens of publications and a If a fluoridation bill is introduced in number of books dealing with both sides the next parliament I hope any Coun- of the question of fluoridation of water try Party member who opposes it supplies; and it was following that that swallows his false teeth. I eventually made up my mind, with a And if he hasn't got to the false clear conscience, that I would exercise my teeth stage, I hope all his fillings fall Privilege to express my opinion and oppose out. the Bill. Being Australian, he's sure to have I would recommend to members that plenty. they read one of the books written by Dr. It seems quite wrong to oppose a Polya entitled Are We Safe? in which he proven health measure so obviously not only mentions this particular problem, beneficial as fluoridation. but also problems of a like nature. He Doctors tell me they would be satis- deals with them most objectively and I fied if they had one tenth the evidence could not imagine anybody being fairer that some drugs they prescribe daily than he is. In his reply to the article to were as safe. which I previously referred, he said that it The concluding paragraph reads- is not true that the dosage recommended is The Country Party should alter their safe. policy. Dental decay in children is a For a moment I shall refer to some of preventable tragedy. the statements we have read over the Years. and to references that have been made. I It will be noticed, again, the intemperate remember on one occasion I referred to the statement. I will now quote another article beliefs of Professor Amies of the University headed, "I'm for fluoride," and the open- of Melbourne. I asked a member, whose ing sentence conveys what I am trying to opinion I regard most highly, whether he illustrate; that is, how unreasonable people would subscribe to the fact that Professor can be. It is as follows:- Amies was an authority, and he said he Watch the frantic anti-fluoride could not go along with that. He said fanatics get back into the act again. that Professor Amies. was a bit silly, was This shocking attemapt to interfere mad, and was a bit of a crank. That seems with our civic liberty by improving to be the attitude of some people who our shocking dental health never fails support fluoridation towards those who to rouse a certain section of our oppose it. Most of the latter are placed in sheep-like public. the crank class. Maybe I will be regarded as a crank, but I feel as normal as any- Scientific investigation has proved- body else. Proved, mind you! To continue- The Hon. L. A. Logan: Just a normal -that a ration of one part of fluoride crank. to one million of water can effect in- [Thursday. 2'7 October, 1966.1 1777

calculable benefits in strengthening argument is to be despised as though children's teeth. it did not exist? This statement has been made as though I am amazed that no arguments of this the particular person was the authority of nature have been put forward by any of the world, instead of just being an ordin- the fluoridationists. in the world who are ary Person. To continue- in favour of fluoridation. One can read It is a safe, effective and practical right through the Minister's second read- Public health measure which nature ing speech and not find one reference to has thoughtfully provided in some any authority. There are only generalisa- sections of the globe and unhappily tions and general statements. When men overlooked in like Professor Theorell and Professor this section. Andes are quoted, and their names are Further on it states- given with their statements, those opinions The Country Party opposes fluorida- are pushed off. We are told that they are tion. The Labor Party wants a refer- the utterances of cranks. I find it difficult endum to go along with that statement, and that And the writer concludes the article with is why I feel it is my duty to point out this paragraph- to the House this side of the case. Mr. Killen goes on from the philosophical point This is one of the times I'm tempted of view and says- by totalitarianism. The assumption of the right to de- That is typical of fluoridationists, and termine what is good and what is bad as for being a totalitarian, I would say in every respect for the individual is that the people on that particular side a philosophy I deeply despise and I are totalitarian in their outlook. I now will on every possible occasion attack propose to deal with some of the evidence it, attack it and attack it again. which I wish to submit. First of all, I will refer to some statements by Mr. Killen. He seems to be quite definite in his Mr. Killen, like an honourable member in opinions. I will now read the last refer- another place, has done more study on ence I am going to make from his speech this subject than, I suppose. 90 per cent. which is as follows:- of the chemists and doctors throughout Flouridation is a completely differ- the world. All his leisure time must have ent approach to a medical problem been occupied in studying this subject, so from any that we have had before. his views, at least, are worthy of attention. It is unique. A member: I would not think that is And this applies here. Continuing- correct. Never before has the State said to The Hon. J. DOLAN: I do not care individuals, 'Here is something which whether the honourable member thinks it you take not to protect the people is correct or not. The honourable member around you from disease but because will have every opportunity to use what- we the State consider this to be in ever evidence he has to discount the your own good." opinion of Mr. Killen. Not one paragrapn It is an amazing Philosophy for the of what I am about to read repudiates the State to propound and one I cannot go arguments put forward by Hugo Theorell, along with. There are other problems. a Nobel prize winner-and he did not fluke and I have never known of one case where it: he won it a second time. Yet people anybody can point to the frect that fluor- are not prepared to accept him as an ide has saved one person's life, or where authority. I would sooner accept his the taking of fluoride has bad any effect opinion than the opinion of many lay on general health. people who try to ram down our necks I can give a real example of this. We how good fluoride is. These people would regard league footballers, generally, as probably try to ram the fluoride down as men who are in perfect health yet, two well! of the captain-coaches-two of the strong- When Mr. Killen moved a motion in the est men in the game today-are toothless. Federal House be referred to Professor There is an instance of the possible lack Theorell and said- of fluoride, but has that had any effect on tbe physical or The subcommittee forgot about him. mental development of There is not a word about the brilliant those men? work of Oxford's Berry and Trillwood. A couple of weeks ago I saw a Swedish There is not a word about the mono- gymnastic group of girls appearing on the graph produced by Dr. Sutton. There Ed Sullivan TV show. I suppose that is not a reference to Professor Amies. never in the history of acrobatics or physi- There is not a reference to the dean cal welfare could one have seen a better of the faculty of dentistry in Rome. act or a more healthy group of people Professor Benagiano. Am I to under- than those girls, and they come from a stand that the intellects of those country which has not yet introduced people have now become so utterly fluoride into its water supplies. desiccated that they can be ignored What was responsible for the good as though they did not exist and that health of that group of girls? Was it 1778 [COUTNCIL.] good diet, or the excellent care shown by plete scientific integrity and not for their parents to ensure that their teeth the purposes of controversy. I have were well looked alter, or has the lack of studied aRl these papers as objectively fluoride in the water supplies of Sweden as I could, and I shall now give as had anything to do with their excellent much of my interpretation of them as health? That is one question I pose. may be crammed into twenty minutes. Sweden is a country which has de- Let me say from the outset that veloped a method of physical exercises when I make a statement it is backed which has been adopted throughout the by, at least, one scientific paper. world. When 1, together with other There is no nonsense or backing and fill- teachers, used to conduct gymnastic classes ing; he guarantees that and I accept his in the schools, the exercises given were word. Continuing- based on the Swedish system of Physical Everything I say can be proved. If training. That is a country which has I do make a conjecture I shall identify made a fetish of physical fitness, but it is it as such. Much remains to be known still prepared to state that fluoride should about the behaviour of fluoride in the not be introduced into its water supply body. Even the protagonists of fluori- systems until further proof has been dation recognise this. Here are a few obtained as to its possible effects, not m)f quotations- children, but on older people. (1) There is uncertainty as to the At this stage let me state emphatically full extent of the effects on that I believe implicitly that the ingestion man produced by the absorp- of fluoride by children is most beneficial. tion of quantities of fluoride I accept that statement, and I accept the large enough to alter slightly sincerity of all people who hold that view. the X-ray appearance of the I think the examples I gave have probably bones, but too small to en- been confirmed by Mr. Bonney, following danger life. his investigations at Alfred Cove and (2) The editor has been struck by Como, that there is evidence that those the fact that there seems to children who have their teeth properly be no other ready source of cared for by their parents gain benefits precise information as to cer- superior to those which fluoridation of tain questions which remain water supplies is supposed to give. to be answered. I will now proceed to quote the opinion (3) It is hardly necessary to state expressed by a man whom I regard as that in regard to the fluorida- an authority. I refer to the Federal mem- tion of public water supplies, it ber for Bowman, Dr. Gibbs. He is not a is impossible to give absolute member of my party, so there is no politi- guarantees of safety. cal flavour in his view. Members should (4) What is needed is a complete and profound knowledge of listen carefully to what he has said,' because even if his opinion conflicts en- the metabolism of fluorine. tirely with one's thinking, I think it does (5) An area of research that has one good to listen to the opinions of a yet to be explored successfully man who has strong views on this subject. is that of the mechanism of In my opinion his views are well worth the toxic action of fluoride. listening to. He stated- He is quite emphatic when he says- I do favour the taking of fluorine It is my deeply rooted belief that tablets if they had been recommended, no measure should be adopted in the but this is a vastly different matter. name of public health unless there is I have now felt it my duty fully to complete certainty- study this matter. I emphasise the words "complete cer- I suggest to members that if they claim tainty," Continuing- to have done the same, I will not move -that that measure is completely from my seat until every member has innocuous. There should be nothing spoken, because I will listen carefully to comparative about this. There must every word that is said. Dr. Gibbs is a be no possibility of damage even to person whom I would say has the capacity one living human being. for intense study, and I would think that Some of his further statements are anything he has to say would be of great rather technical and I will not weary the significance. He went on- House wvith technical terms. Like myself, In this study I have been greatly I suppose members have received many helped by the Library staff who have, pieces of literature containing many almost uniflinchingly, secured for me highly technical terms which, I suppose, mountains of literature on both sides only one person in a thousand would of this subject- understand. One would have to be a Here I emphasise the word, "both." Con- chemist or a biochemist to understand fully tinuing- the import of many of the statements con- -and many papers dealing with the taining technical references. Further, I fundamental aspects of fluorine meta- suppose nobody in the world could claim bolism, which were prepared with comn- to have read all the literature which has (Thursday, 27 October, 1966.] 1779

been published for and against the fluori- damage; secondly, fluorides take 20 dation of water supplies. Dr. Gibbs went Years or so to produce chronic toxic on to say- effects. Let us consider the water supply as I turn now to the comments made by an- a source of fluorine. other member of the Federal House of That is the basis; that our water supply Representatives, Mr. Gray, who did inter- be fluoridated. Continuing- national research on a large scale so that The amount we absorb from a given he could convince himself, one way or the water supply depends, first, upon the other, on this issue. This was one of his nature of the fluoride compouind-al- conclusions- most all sodium fluoride would be One of the most important docu- absorbed, but a great deal of calcium ments that have come to our notice in fluoride would not-and, secondly, recent times on this subject is from upon the amount of the water which the National Research Council of is drunk. Canada. This institution's views can- not be lightly brushed aside. It did not I think wve can all agree with that state- arrive at a decision in any great haste; ment. The amount of water drunk by it conducted a research programme into one person as compared with another fluoridation under the direction of Dr. varies tremendously. I know some Dyson Rose and Dr. Marcel Boulet over people who drink an enormous quantity a period of ten years. of water every day. I have often seen children at school around the drinking tap This was no hasty decision, based on a cur- all the time with a glass or a mug, but sory glance at records; it was made after a I have also noticed many children whose Period of research covering 10 years. desire for water is practically negligible. He went on to say- So there is no certainty that water con- No one can accuse them of arriving taining fluoride will be equally beneficial at a conclusion without giving the for everyone who drinks it. matter due consideration. Let us In continuing his statement, Dr. Gibbs admit that this report was not avail- said- able to the present Minister for the Interior (Mr. Anthony) when he made The amount of water drunk varies his decision, and let us admit that it within enormous limits. Some of the was not available to the Advisory factors involved are individual habit. Council. Also, of course, the Minister's climate and state of health. Predecessor did not have it at his dis- A number of studies have been made posal. So far as I know, the report of this. arrived in Australia only in 1964. When I would remind members that Dr. Gibbs we bear in mind that this scientific in- can produce authorities for every state- stitution carried Out its experiments ment he makes, and I accept his word on Over a period of ten years we must give that. Continuing- its report some weight. All agreed that the variation in water Having arrived at a decision, the two doctors submitted their findings to Dr. intake as between individuals is, as L. F. I say, enormous. For this reason Belanger of the Department of fluoridation of a public water supply Histology at the University of Ottawa; to Dr. B. B. Miglcovsky of the Animal is unscientific. Research Institute, Central Experimen- The doctor then goes on to talk about tal Farm, Ottawa; and to Dr. F. C. Lu 1 part per million. A little further on he of the Division of Pharmacology and makes this definite statement- Toxicology, Department of National It is incontrovertible that fluorides Health and Welfare, Ottawa. These accumulate in the body. three scientists all supported fully the He can quote authorities for this state- findings of the National Research ment. Continuing- Council of Canada. Still not being satisfied, the I believe that they exert a toxic effect council sent the report to the United States of America, where it upon many of the tissues. was submitted to the "Archives of En- Some of the details are gruesome. Any vironmental Health", which is the member who wishes to read them can do Official journal of the American Acad- so, but he would have to have the stomach emy of Occupational Medicine and of of a qualified medical Practitioner to take the Association of Teachers of Pre- much of it. Dr. Gibbs went on to say- ventive Medicine. Fluoridation fanciers can tell us that That was a highly authoritative body the the kidneys are not poisoned by fluor- opinions of which could be deeply respect- ides. To prove their point they have ed. He went on to say- carried out tests upon some of the The Papers were read and criticised children who live in Newburg and other by nine different specialists, one by towns with fluorine containing water one, who took eighteen months to com- supplies. I have two points of criticism plete the work on behalf of these here. First, the kidney tests were crude scientific organisations. After all this, and would show only gross kidney no sufficient cause having been found 1780 1780[COUNCIL.]

to reject the Canadian thesis as faulty stands in the forefront of scientific or misleading in regard to fact, pub- accomplishment today. I have with lication finally occurred in the "Arch- me a letter from Russia, and any ives" issue of May, 1963. honourable member who understands The following is something which sums Russian is quite welcome to read this up what these experts arrived at:- for himself. According to the report the only Evidently he obtained the services of a undeniable and indisputable good that translator to translate the letter into fluoride is known to confer on the English. He -went on- human body is conferred in the One passage in that letter states- mouth. Mass fluoridation by means of That is the only part of the human body adding sodium fluoride to the where fluoride does any good. As regards town water supply is not practised its effect on other parts of the body these anywhere in our country. authorities say there has not been any- I suggest this a conclusive rebuttal of thing definite, and they estimate it will the claim of some People that every take 20 to 25 years before a decision can forward-thinking nation of the world has be reached. accepted fluoridation of water supplies as Mr. Gray, the authority I am quoting absolutely necessary, Here I have just -I class him as an authority, because he mentioned two countries-France and has done 1,000 times more work on this Russia-which stand in the forefront in subject than I or probably any other the approach to scientific problems, and member, with the exception of the Min- which do not advocate fluoridation of ister-had this to say about the position water supplies. in France- Mr. Gray went on to say- No matter what we may think of some of the activities of France, we must I have also a letter from Dr. Alfred admit that the French are in the fore- Taylor, a research scientist at the front of scientific thought and know- University of Texas... ledge today. A reply from the Director Texas is noted for many things, but more of Public Health in Paris states-- recently it has become noted as being the The Ministry of Health, faced State from which the present President with the problem of the employ- of the U.S.A. comes. The letter of Dr. ment of this method as a means Taylor is as follows:- of preventing dental caries, has Our laboratory results demonstrated submitted the question to the con- that even though fluoride is given in sultative scientific assemblies... trace quantities, its toxic qualities The reply mentions that this oc- become evident in susceptible mice. curred over a period of two years. which receive this drug in their drink- The Chief Adviser of Public ing water for most of their life span. Hygiene of Prance has estimated The reference to experiments being car- that the harmlessness of pro- ried out on mice is nothing unusual. This longed ingestion, particularly of is a procedure adopted by scientists all artificially fluoridated water, even over the world, even in Australia. Experi- in rigorously controlled small ments are always carried out on animals doses, does not appear to be before they are tried out on humans. I suffciently demonstrated, and will not read any more of that now be- that in these circumstances it cause it starts to get technical and I was would be preferable that the determined, when I commenced to speak, administration of fluorine remain that I woulid not at any stage read techni- an individual matter on advice cal opinions and advice because members from physicians and dentists. would be unable to follow it. We are more In other words, the authorities in Prance easily able to accept opinions couched in are approaching this problem in the way simple terms. that the mothers of Alfred Cove and Como Mr. Gray gave a quotation from publica- approached it in order to ensure that tion No. 825 of 1962 issued by the Public their children have good teeth. The Health Service of the United States of method which has been suggested by the America. This again is an authoritative two authorities I have just mentioned body. The following is to be found under should be adopted throughout Western the heading, "Fluoridated Drinking Australia and the Commonwealth. until Waters," and I might add that this pub- such time as figures and evidence are lication was issued by an organisation Produced to show that the fluoridation of which is a proponent of the fluoridation water supplies is superior. of water supplies-- Mr. Gray went on to say- Adequate presumptive evidence from I refer next to Soviet Russia. Al- epidemiological studies and laboratory though we may disagree with its experimentation suggests that dental politics and with Its genera! activities, caries can be partially controlled by we must admit that Soviet Russia fluoridation of domestic water supplies. [Thursday, 27 October, 1966.) 178178

It may be concluded in the light of matter how much faith I have in such a present knowledge that such a Proce- thing, I would not drink the water. dure will not be associated with ad- The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: You accept verse physiological effects. the statements, which are third hand? That was the finding which is in favour You accept them as absolutely true? of fluoridation. I read it purposely be- The Hon. J. DOLAN. It is the official cause I do not want to exclude a quotation record of the proceedings of the House which presents the other side of the case of Representatives, and the man whose a little. I ask members to pay particular opinions I have quoted guaranteed in the attention to the next sentence which House that they were true. If we cannot reads-- accept such statements, what can we ac- The full evaluation of the benefits of cept? I have given the names of the employing this method of caries con - authorities and I also gave the word of trol must await the final results of Dr. Gibbs, who said that he could produce experimental studies now in progress. authority for every statement he made. In other words, the United States Public He was honest enough to say so, if any- Health Department is not sure as to the thing he said he was unable to substan- ultimate effect on humans. What I am tiate. about to relate now will be interesting to If we cannot accept these definite state- members who might even laugh a little, ments, we certainly cannot accept the as I did when I read it first. If the generalisation we find in the Minister's Federal member concerned had not speech. He quoted no authority but used guaranteed that this information was expressions such as "all authorities." He authentic, I would have thought he was did not name one. I have named some drawing the long bow a little. In America, and have quoted Dr. Gibbs who I would in towns like Pittsburgh, are water com- say is a reputable member of our Federal panies which supply people with non- Parliament. fluoridated water. If a person has an The lHon. 0. C. MacKinnon: So You do objection to drinking fluoridated water, he accept this absolutely and implicitly? buys nan-fluoridated water from one of The Hon. J. DOLAN: Not implicity. I these companies. I feel that many of the things which exist there could exist only am telling the members of this House what in America. Of course, in this regard we he had to say. It rests with each member to have such companies here to decide whether he accepts what was may have said. I do so because I trust these men. some day. They are public men; men of responsibility, Mr. Gray received a letter from the Polar and with no axe to grind. They are speak- Water Company of Pittsburgh, and that ing as their conscience guides them, and town has had fluoridated water supplies what they say should be listened to. I do for a lengthy period. Mr, Gray states not ask members to do anything else but that those who do not wish to drink water listen, and if possible make up their own from the public supply, which has been minfds--not be brainwashed and have their fluoridated, can buy water supplied by this minds made up beforehand. company. I wonder if members can guess That is why I referred back to the state- the name of one of those who buy water ment of the Minister. So far as our party from this company. He is one of the chief is concerned each proponents of fluoridation, and the name member is free to speak will ring a bell in the minds of those who and vote as he sees fit. I wish every mem- have made any study of the subject. He ber in the House were iji the same boat. I is Professor 0. J. Cox, Professor of Dental have vivid recollections of another matter Research at the University of Pittsburgh, concerning which pressure was brought to who was largely responsible for fluorida- bear on one member who expressed opposi- tion of public water supplies being adopted tion to it. I feel that in a democracy pres- by the city council on the 26th November, sure of that nature should not be exercised 1951. Yet he will not drink it himself. He in a Question like this which affects all buys water from the Polar Water Com- people, not only the children whom it will pany, and drinks non-fluoridated water. benefit but also the elder folk who are likely to suffer injurious effects. This company supplied a list of some of its best-known customers and the one - --All th e arguments in the world might be at the top of the list was Professor Cox. submithc to indicate that these injurious Mr. Gray comments that Professor Cox is effects will not arise, and I am prepared prepared to introduce fluoride into the to listen to every word which is said by public water supplies, but is not prepared those who support fluoridation of water to drink it himself. I have a lot of respect supplies. Although I am now speaking for the engineer who recently stated that against fluoridation, if those in favour of the treated sewage which is was desired to it can convince me that they are right, deposit in the Swan River, was pure. In I will vote with them. However, I would order to substantiate his statement he like them to study the authorities I have drank a glass of this water after it had quoted and to say straightout that they been treated, to prove that the water was do not accept the words of these public harmless. It have a great admiration for a men in Parliament-our national Parlia - person like that, I am afraid that no ment. If we cannot accept their word, [COUNCM.] and the authorities and documents they more. I believe that if only one of my have presented, well it is a pretty poor constituents were opposed to fluoridation old show. and he said to me, "Mr. Dolan, I would Even the former Prime Minister (Sir like you to present my views, as one of Robert Menzies) joined in. Evidently lie your constituents and a member of the came to the rescue of a couple of his public, to the House," I would agree to members who were finding it pretty heavy Present them. I would agree to do this weather, and when he started in the whether I believed his Point of view to be following vein r put his ecomments aside. correct or not: even if I did not believe The first thing he said was-- his views to be true I would still present them, because I feel people are entitled to I do not speak as an expert on be heard. this matter. I sin the least of God's creatures in this field and still have Although I have presented my views, it a few of my own teeth. is not for that reason. I have presented them because I believe there is no neces- I do not 'want to continue just for the sake sity for fluoridation to be introduced, and of talking. when I rose to my feet I said because I believe there are other remedies that the Minister concluded his speech by wi-hich could be applied and which would saying that with absolute sincerity and benefit the teeth of the children. So far complete confidence he commended the as the health of our children is concerned, Bill to the House. I would accept the in- in that respect I bow to none. I have tegrity and judgment of the Minister. I spent almost a lifetime looking after accept the fact that when he made that the mental and physical welfare of chil- statement he was completely sincere. dren and I would do anything to ensure I say that I oppose this Bill for the rea- that not only they, but also aUl people, are sons I have given. It is an infringement of safe when they drink fluoridated water. human liberties. Alternative remedies are I oppose the Bill. available for the prevention of dental de- cay, and I feel there are other problems THU HON. V. J. FERRY (South-West) which I could refer to. T could refer, for (3.43 prn.: The Bill before the House is example, to the question of smoking. So one which has generated far as I am concerned, it is a matter for a great deal of the individual to decide whether or not he public interest and we, as members of wishes to smoke. People could look like Parliament, have had a lot of opportunity the chimney at the East Perth power to make our own assessment by weighing station all day long and it would not all the facts as they have been presented, wonry me, because it is their business. or by weighing the facts which have been discovered through our own personal re- Also, one can pick up reports at any time search on the subject. of the toll on the roads and read what is said to be the reason for it. if people Whilst we can quote at length from like to drink, that is their business so far many experts in many fields if we wish, as r am concerned. it reverts to the situation that we, as Only about a week ago, a cancer author- members of Parliament, are obliged at ity Passed through Premantle by boat and some point of time to make up our minds stated it was undeniable that lung cancer as to what our views are on a particular was caused to a large extent through measure. Therefore, it is our responsibility, excessive smoking. in our own humble way, to reach the point where we do make an assessment The Hon. R. Thompson: The tobacco and decide to go one way or the other. companies would disagree with that. I am quite sure in mny own mnind that I The Hon. J. DOLAN: Of course the thoroughly agree with this Bill and I will tobacco companies would disagree with support that statement with a few reasons that. I would say the question is the as I proceed through the course of my same with other of our social problems; address. we have social problems and we leave it Might I say at the outset, as it has been to individuals to decide for themselves. said already during this debate, that people in this particular matter, I feel that if may be physically fit, although they have there were a proper programme of educa- no teeth, or perhaps they have many tion for the mothers, with the same caries, which are more commonly ex- amount of Publicity which has becIji given pressed as many decayed teeth. This may to fluoridation, we would get somnewhere. be true, but no one will convince mec that I will be perfectly sincere and canciia; I caries improve health-far from it! In read practically every publication on this my personal experience, I realise that question that is in the magazine room and caries cause a great deal of suffering to in the library, as well as everything that the lives of many people from time to has appeared in articles in newspapers and time. so on, before I reached a decision. I realise, too, that this measure is pri- We in this Chamber were invited to marily directed towards the health of our another place to hear the case for fluori- younger generation, particularly the chil- dation, but we heard only one side and not dren. As adults, I am sure each and the other. Probably this was when I be- every one of us in some measure has came a rebel because nothing upsets mae felt during his lifetime-perhaps some [Thursday, 27 October, 1966.) 1783 mare than others-that it is his duty to that had been the normal pattern of liv- make sacrifices for the younger citizens- ing for long and gloomy centuries. for the children. In most cases we gladly Smallpox was still a huge problem. The do this, whether or not it is in fact in- plague bad not returned to England and fringing our Personal liberty in some way Europe after the disasters of the 17th or another. This is an endless field of century, and some outbreaks during the sacrifice, Particularly for parents. Even 18th century; but cholera was one of the if one is not a Parent, one still has a more obvious Problems of 19th century responsibility in this direction. England-if I remember rightly, the last The I-on. R. Thompson: Then, appar- outbreak of cholera in London was as ently the honourable member considers recent as 1892. The "normal' diseases- that drinking fluoridated water represents if one can call diseases "normal"-such a sacrifice. as tuberculosis, whooping cough, typhoid, diphtheria, and gastro-enteritis, were ac- Sitting suspended from 3.45 to 4.3 p. cepted as inevitable. The Hon. V. J. FERRY: Prior to the Except for the existence of vast slums. afternoon tea suspension I was making this was also the public health pattern in some introductory remarks in regard to Western Australia, and in other commum- the Bill, and I shall now proceed to the ties like it, towards the end of the 19th more meaty Part of my address. The century. Cholera had come to Australia. first step in the discussion of the fluorida- Plague, the never-to-be-forgotten terror tion of Public water supplies is to clarify of Public health history, had come to Aus- the issues. I have given the question a tralia, in the 1890s and would come to lot of thought and I have tried to answer Western Australia in the 20th century. six questions that seem to me tb cover the Typhoid had become an enormous problem main issues. Those questions are- in the 1890s--I think there were 1,395 (1) Is fluoridation an appropriate deaths in the five-year period from 1896 measure for a Government to to 1900, and that would be the equivalent introduce? today, if it were continued on a population (2) Is fluoridation necessary? basis, of 1,400 a year. (3) Is it sate? There were annual epidemics of diph- (4) Is it effective? theria, whooping cough, and gastro-enteri- tis; a high rate of tuberculosis amounting (5) Can the engineers do it? to a permanent epidemic; an infant mor- (6) Can this measure be justified, tality rate of about 180 per 1,000 live legally and morally. births; and, worst of all, in many ways. To all of these six questions I feel the there was an acceptance of the inevita- answer is "Yes"- bility of disease problems that today can- not be understood by the parents of young The Hon. R. F, Hutchison: I don't. children, and would not be tolerated any- The Hon. V. J. FERRY: -and this way. assumption can be supported by the re- All this has changed. Why has it sume I propose to advance. changed? There should be no need to I should now like to say something tell the members of this House the reasons about public health patterns. The public for the change. Typhoid has virtually health organisation, as a clear responsi- disappeared, as have diphtheria, whooping bility of government, emerged from the cough, and gastro-enteritis, and other squalor and degradation of the industrial diseases causing death. revolution. The industrial cities were The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: What has built to the standards of the middle ages; this to do with fluoridation? there was no understanding of public The lion. V. 3. FERRY: Tuberculosis is health, the importance of proper drainage substantially under control. In recent and sewage disposal, housing, ventilation, years polio has virtually disappeared. The pure water, and other environmental fac- "headline" diseases of history-smallpox, tors. There was, until late in the 19th the plague, and cholera-have all occurred century, no understanding of the cause in Australia, but they were never allowed of the enormous disease problems per- to become serious problems. petuated, if not created, by environmental conditions that the people of Western The Hon. Rt. F. Hutchison: What has Australia cannot possibly conceive. In this to do with fluoridation? the absence of knowledge there can be The lion. V. J1.FERRY: The change in no standards as we understand the term. the public health pattern might well be Nevertheless, government became a summarised in the simple statement that factor in Public health during the last the word "epidemic" has virtually dis- half of the 19th century, concentrating appeared from the vocabulary of the peo- for the most part on laws for pure food ple of Western Australia. However, not a and on the development of water supplies great number of people stop to consider and on measures to- improve social con- how the changes came about. They did ditions. There was nothing much that not just happen. Infectious diseases were could be done about disease problems brought under very real control by a corn - 1784 1784[CO UNCIL.j

bination of government action, in the ap- same reasons. This is because of the plication of medical discoveries and ad- 'acceptance by the people of the treatment vances, and with the people making their available and, as a result of the treatment, own immense contributions as the 20th there is virtually no polio in our community century advanced. today. The Hon. R. F. Hutch ison: What has The H-on. R. Thompson: Dr. Salk is an this to do with fluoride? anti -fluoridationist. The Hon. V. J. PERRY: If the honour- The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: That is what able member cares to wait for a moment I was wondering about. she may realise what I am driving at. The I-on. V. J. PERRY: That could The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: But what well be. has it got to do with fluoride? The Hon. R. Thompson: It is true. The Hon. V. J. FERRY: Consider The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I am not Dr. typhoid. Medical science provided the Salk, and I am making the speech at the understanding of bacteria, and engineers moment. We tend to think of public health and chemists produced a method of killing at government level in terms of public harmful bacteria in water. Governments health departments, but government re- accepted the recommendations of their sponsibility in public health extends beyond public health and engineering services, and a central health department. The Agri- the chlorination of public water supplies cultural Department, with its herd-testing became a standard procedure. This has programnme-I mentioned the question of removed Western Australia's comnplex milk a moment or two ago-has made, and water supply system as a source of disease is still making extremely important contri- spread. butions to the control of bovine tubercu- losis. The Education Department-and I Medical science pointed to milk sup- think Mr. Dolan would agree with me that plies as a means of spreading typhoid. the Education Department must continue Chemists and technicians produced the to be in the very front rank in this connec- pasteurisation method to kill the harmful tion-has steadily increased the health bacteria in milk. Governments required knowledge of the community, and must milk to be pasteurised under rigid stan- move into the front rank of public health dards that seldom break down, and milk agencies if we are to make the same kind has been removed as a threat to public of advances in the future as we have made health as a result of the system in opera- in the past 80 years. tion today. The people still need to keep I turn now from the country because I milk protected after the bottles have been have already discussed the Question of delivered, and the pasteurisation of milk agricultural research leading to improved supplies does not remove the final re - food supplies and this, in itself, is an es- sponsibility for milk cleanliness from the sential public health work. As regards the individual person. cities, the departments concerned with It is realised that we as citizens who town planning, housing, child welfare, and use milk in our homes have to exerci;se police, have a great deal to do with the care in keeping milk in refrigerators and question of public health today, because the like. However, basically, there has5 public health extends beyond the relatively been an improvement in health through narrow concept of the prevention of in- the pasteurisation of milk and the people fectious diseases. play their part, as I have already indi- The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: But this is cated. This is a fine example of how the not a public health measure. it is a con- average citizen can carry Public health troversial opinion. methods further by taking care in his own home. The H-on. V. J. FERRY: Sixty years ago this would have been heresy, because Typhoid, as I said earlier, is practically disease had whole societies by the throat. a non-existent disease today. Over a 10- This measure, I believe, will be the means year period from 1956 to 1965, there of stopping the epidemic of tooth decay. were only three deaths in Western Aus- and what I have just said about govern- tralia. There were two deaths in 1958 and ment departments is an illustration of the one in 1959. In years gone by typhoid, depth and breadth in Government involve- cholera, and other diseases were respon- ment in the health of the whole commun- sible for the deaths of large numbers of ity. As regards dental caries, or tooth people. decay as it is commonly known, we are very Let us consider polio and whooping cough much at a disadvantage, particularly in and diphtheria. Medical science produced Western Australia. Statistics prove this a good vaccine. This was tested by gov- horrible fact and it appears that the people ernment agencies and a service was pro- of this community must play their part. vided to take the vaccine to the people. Parliament itself has made immense con- The people used the service provided by tributions and, after all, the departments the Government, and the vaccine, and polio work under the authority of Parliament. disappeared. For practical purposes, the It is upon Parliament that the progress of others I mentioned-whooping cough and public health, by enlightened legislation, diphtheria-have disappeared, and for the has depended. [Thursday, 27 October, 1966.] 178578

The Hon. Rt. F. Hutchison: That depends though many of them had nothing to do upon who is who, and upon which side one 'with fluoride or with tooth decay. sits. I am completely and utterly opposed to The Hon. V. J. FrERRY: All this means having fluoride inflicted on me. Other -and only the periphery of this huge members can think for themselves in this subject has been touched-is that the matter. I do not wish to drink fluoridated responsibility of government in the water. A lot has been said about the teeth development of Public health standards, of the children in Cue. I would Point out, and the application of proven methods of however, that I spent all my childhood in control of disease and other problems has Cue, and I now have a set of false teeth. been firmly established-profitably estab- The children there have as many decayed lished-for over 100 years. When I say teeth as they do anywhere else. The water "Profitably" I mean for the good of the in Cue, which is supposed to be fluoridated, community in which we live. did not do any public good that I could It means that the responsibility of gov- see; and nobody has proved that it did. ernment is to keep public health perspec- When I started my family, with every tives; that we should move with the times, child of mine I lost a number of teeth. I and keep abreast with what is going on. was told by the doctors that this was a This means, clearly, that the Government condition which was brought about by has a responsibility to keep public health my own health. I began to lose my teeth patterns and perspectives under constant when I was 20. review. Let us not go hack to the dark ages. We should extend the range of The Hon. C. E. Griffiths: You would not proven systems of prevention to problems lose them these days. that would once have seemaed unimportant The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: People when compared with disease producing are still losing their teeth. We never heard heavy mortality in all age groups. about fluoride until the Alcoa company The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: Because we came to this State. I1 have been to have a big company with a by-product America, and I have heard all the argu- which it wishes to sell. ments advanced there, What we are dis- The Hon. V. J. FERRY: Against typhoid, cussing is nothing but a by-product which diphtheria, whooping cough, tuberculosis, a big company seeks to turn to its own and polio, dental caries was insignificant. advantage. it is something we have accepted, more or The Hon. C. E. Griffiths: That is not less; though toothache I can never accept right. completely. Against the blank space The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: Fluoride created by the virtual elimination of some, is a poison. How does anybody know and the effective control of others, dental whether it protects the teeth of children? caries emerges as the last of the great We all know that mothers can obtain disease problems affecting children to be tablets which can be given to their chil- brought under control. dren if they so desire. What is wrong with The Hon. F. J. S. Wise: What about the that? Why should we expose the rest of common cold? the community to the ills associated with The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I hope it will fluoridated water? not be long before we can also nail that I am afraid I do not have too much in its coffin. Any Government would be confidence in the public men who will be failing in its responsibilty to the commun- responsible for fluoridating the water sup- ity if' it were to neglect this problem by plies. I have seen them make so many refusing to use the public health system blunders and mistakes that it would take that has been built up in such a relatively a brave person to say that he would im- short time, and which has achieved so plicitly rely on the fact that these men much. This, none of us can deny; not knew what they were about. I say that -even Mrs. Hutchison, with some truth. Fluoridation of water supplies is an I have children with perfect teeth, but appropriate measure for any Government I also have two children 'who have den - to introduce. This Bill, for the extension tures, as I do myself. It evidently depends of proven public health methods to the on something more than the water one control of dental disease, stands securely drinks. As members know, my children on a. solid foundation of public health are not teenagers now; my eldest son is achievement that has been growing in his 50s, and he has really good teeth. stronger for over a century. This system The arguments that have been presented of public health protection is one that the to us are so much a contradiction of the people trust; it has delivered the goods. I truth, that I am afraid I cannot accept support the Bill. them. THE HON. R. F. HIUTCHISON (North- We have a Government which seeks to East Metropolitan) [4.20 p.m.]: I do not impose on us anything which will benefit know what Mr. Ferry was trying to tell big business. That is the Government's the House, and I certainly could not come Bible. to a conclusion as to what he meant. Some The Hon. H. R. Robinson: It is a pretty parts of his speech sounded very learned, good Governument. 1786 178COUJNCIL.]

The Ron. R. F. HUTCHISON: This The Hon, A. F. Griffith: Who wrote legislation is due to come into force in that article? 1957.. The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: The The Hon. C. E. Griffiths: You seem to Editor-in-Chief, University of Ottawa be going back a bit. Medical Journal. Here is a most stirring The Hon. R. IF. HUTCHISON: I am letter 'which I received this morning. aging and I can be excused for the error. This industry Ten years means nothing to me now! All cannot bury this I can say is that if a Labor Government is waste product for that would destroy returned the legislation certainly will not plant life in the surroundings; they cannot dump it in the sea for that be promulgated. would destroy all sea life. What would The Hon. R. Thompson: There will be be more convenient and more profit- a referendum of the people. able than to sell it for big money The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: I would and add it to the drinking water of rather not see it promulgated at all. The human beings? Sincere proponents papers I have in my hand comprise about have been confused by sales promoters half the correspondence that has been of sodium fluoride into thinking sent to me. They are very voluminous and this synthetic chemical, made from I would not attempt to read all of them. aluminiumn filing tailing, is the same though I would very much like to do so. as natural, calcium type, fluoride, I have only one letter and a little booklet which is beneficial when found in the 'which supports the case for fluoride;, all diet. This, however, is completely the others are against it. untrue: Sodium Fluoride Is not a The Hon. E. C. House: Head the letter natural product and it is not found we got this morning. naturally in any part of the world, it is not a constituent part of our The Hon. R, F. HUTCHISON: I have teeth or bones. It must be artificially a copy of the Daily News which contains manufactured. It is absolutely foreign an article on the subject and a very nice to the human system. The aluminium photograph of the Minister. industry is forcing tax payers to pay over fifteen million dollars a year for The Hon. F. J. S. Wise: Which Min- this waste product. The only use for ister? it heretofore has been (a) As a rat The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: The Min- poison; (b) by cattlemen to partially ister looks very confident, but I hope that de-sex their hulls so they will be more this is one occasion on which his confi- tractable; (c) by the Russian and dence will not be justified. The Govern- Nazi secret pollee to make their ment should be ashamed to take the risk pr-isoners stupid so they can be more of imposing something on people which easily brainwashed. The standard wvill do them mote harm than good; par- label for Sodium Fluoride from the ticularly when they are over the teething factory reads: "Corrosive Liquid." stage, and in view of the effect it When in contact with the Skin it can is likely to have on older people. cause painful and slow healing burns. There is a possibility of their developing Exposure to more than 50 parts of all kinds of diseases and pains associated t he fumes per million of air is known with fluoride. I will never stand for the to be fatal in 30 to 60 minutes. You introduction of fluoride. I have here an are dealing with a substance so article from a French paper, and I will corrosive that it will eat through a read one paragraph from it- quarter inch steel plate in a few It would appear to me that perhaps minutes. financial interests have played a major I would now like to quote a paragraph role in sponsoring the one-sided story from a paper by the Anti-Fluoridation communicated through the major Council of Australia, and New Zealand. news media. This, and perhaps the It reads-- trend for these agencies to jump on (2) Also, there is now sufficient evi- any "bandwagon" may have been dence to justify a presumption of instigating factors... medical hazard due to long term On a small personal survey, out of toxic effects of artificially fluori- about fifty medical practitioners who dated water. supported fluoridation actively, signed Professor Andes has since re- petitions, etc., none of these 'were affirmed this pronouncement. able to justify their position. At least half of these admitted that they Dr. G. L. Waldbott. an American were not really well-enough informed specialist in allergies, of world repute, to take any stand. About half of the has just published a book of docu- fifty reversed their opinions after niented evidence entitled, "A Struggle having read the editorial. It is quite with Titans-Forces behind Fluor-ida- frightening to note that there were tion", which reveals that: the so-called experts who endorsed (1) There are scientific records the "fluoridation experiment." of serious harm and death rThursday, 27?October, 1966.] 1787

from drinking fluoridated 1. Skipworth, President of the Pure Water water. Association:- (2) Fluoridation does not reduce Please find enclosed literature con- dental decay as claimed. taining evidence against Fluoridation. (3) Fluoridation was originally I am forwarding several copies of each promoted by industry. Publication just in case there may be (4) Scientific evidence against other members who may be inter- fluoridation has been sup- ested enough in the subject to read Pressed. them. (5) There has been very serious We are appreciative of the support intimidation of medical and You gave us in the last struggle and dental scientists who have look forward to your continued sup- Opposed fluoridation, and port in the future. (6) Because there has been so I say it is a wicked thing that this Bill little scientific research into can go through simply because we have the harmful side effects of not the Power to stop it. fluoridation, it could ulti- The I-on. F. D. Willmott: Mr. Dolan said mately be a major disaster to you are free to vote as you like. mankind. The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: So we If we are expected to take notice of the are. article in the paper in which the Min- The Hon. C. E. Griffiths: So are we. ister's photograph appears, why should The Hon. R. F. HUTTCHISON: The fol- we not take notice of all these other lowing appeared in the flaily News of the articles which I1 have read? They have 6th September. under the heading "Fluor- just as much claim to be regarded as ide and basic rights":- being correct as has the Minister's article. Fluoridation of public water supplies In the Daily News the Minister said- represents compulsory mass medication The Government's proposed fluori- without precedent in what we claim is dation Hill will come before the State a democratic community. Further, the Parliament soon. If it is passed the compulsory medication of a whole water supply engineers will have a populace, variable in individual re- Problem on their hands. sponse, regardless of individual age, - I stop at that point, but there is Now we see the crocodile tears that some- a lot more of it. What the public does times flow here. The aged people are caus- not know is that in this House the ing rue concern. Liberal-Country Party Government has The Hon. A. F. Griffith: No doubt you absolute power with its majority either to are a good judge of crocodile tears. pass or defeat whatever it likes. There The Hon. R. F. HTCHISON: Con- has never been a Labor Party majority in tinuing- the Legislative Council. The boundaries are so gerrymandered that - state of teeth, general health, rate it is impossible of consumption of water and so on. is for labor to have a majority. both unscientific and unethical. The The Hon. H. R. Robinson: What has protection of our basic rights is, or that got to do with fluoridation? should be. the first duty of our elected The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: It is representatives. We should be able to the reason why the Minister can, with rely on them to understand the nature confidence, write things like I have just of democracy well enough to keep quoted. We could not stop this Bill from politics out of our private lives and being passed unless the Liberal Party or not try to extend their powers of col- the Country Party voted with us. The lective decision to those intimate details present position is nothing to smile about; where freedom of personal choice Is and it is one of the reasons why I endeav- essential. oured to enter this House in the first place. Their role should not be to force me I refer to my fight against the undemo- to drink what I freely choose not to cratic Legislative Council in Western drink, which, in effect, they are doing Australia. if public water supplies are fluoridated. The Passion to regulate the lives of The PRESIDENT: Order! The honour- others is deep-seated in many indiv- able member cannot reflect upon this iduals. When this is based on political Chamber. expedience it is bad enough, but when The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: I did not it is inspired by an idealism which think that telling the truth would be a wishes to impose benefits on others, It reflection. can become dangerous. Passive acceptance of the right of The PRESIDENT: Standing Orders f.or- any government or local authority to bid it. implement compulsory medication is to The Hon. R. F. HUTrCHISON: That is sacrifice a fundamental principle of something else against the Upper House. democracy. Once the principle of The following is a letter I received from personal responsibility is abandoned, 1788 1788COUNCIL.]

the way is wide open for Big Brother fluoride is not a poison. Therefore it to take over in a big way. I have en- should not be given wholesale to the public tered the lists on the assumption that in drinking water, especially as some people there still exist in this State others be- drink more than others. I drink a lot of sides myself who desire to preserve water and perhaps may drink three to six some of the small amount of personal pints per day, while another person may freedom and responsibility still remain- drink two, and another perhaps 10. Where ing to us.-The Rev. B. R. Adderley. is the levelling out? What is safe and Nannup. what is not safe? There is no answer. It I could go on Quoting for hours, as I have is simply a question of the Government received so many personal expressions of saying, "We will impose this on you." I opinion. People do not write of their per- have already pointed out to members that sonal opinions unless they are in earnest. this will be the case, because we cannot If they are not in earnest they just do not stop the Government. bother. However, if there is a change of Govern- I have here a cutting from an American ment I am assured by our leaders that paper headed, "Alcoa Now Sells Fluoride fluoride will not be used. The town 'Direct'." I am now getting close to my of Cue has been mentioned over and real objection. The article reads as fol- over again: and what has been said lows:- about it is a lot of rot. Such a lot of One of the most extraordinary fea- ncnsense has been said that people believe tures of fluoride promotion has been there is something in it. I was bred on Alcoa's Persistent denials that they Cue water, but lost my teeth wvhen I was were its first champion. In a letter to having my family and now have dentures. Mr. C. A. Barden, 5-12-57, H. P. Bone- I have children with good teeth but two brake, Chemical Sales Manager, stated: have false teeth. So where is the sense in "Alcoa in no wvay promotes the it? sale of fluorides for water fluorida- Before I finish, I wish to state that I tion and the Company does not sell rebel at being forced to drink fluoridated Sodium Fluoride directly to any water; and I am in sympathy with the rmnicipality"1 people who are putting up a fight against This shows that my reference to Alcoa it. This is a situation which would not is sound common sense. What I have read have come about if big business were not was contained in an American paper and it interested in the profit motive. I do not was about Alcoa and fluoride. think the Minister knows enough about the subject to be as definite as he is. If The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: That was he were able to examine the position answered in a reply to a question asked by scientifically, I am sure he would be found Mr. Tonkin some weeks ago. Did you wanting. I am against the Bill. read the date of that paper? I know the measure will be passed, but The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: It is an I hope a spanner will be thrown in the American Paper, dated August, 1957. works. If there is a change of Govern- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You contend ment we will be able to do something the Alcoa Plant is there so that we can about it, because we would have a major- fluoridate the water supplies? ity in another place and fluoridation would The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: No, I do be defeated there: the matter would not contend that. I am not as silly as the not come to this House. This precious Minister would try to make out. Upper House would not have a say in it. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You are the We will soon see the result of might best judge of that. against right. The Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: It is the The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What a terrible Practice of big business to turn whatever time you would have if Labor were in it can into a. profit. office. You would have nothing to com- The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: The hon- plain about. ourable member- The Hon. R. P. HIUTCHISON: This Bill The PRESTDENT: Order! The Minis- will be passed because the Liberal-Country ter' will have an opportunity to reply at a Party Government wants it Passed and later stage of the debate. can impose its will upon the country. The H-on. R. F. HUTCHISON: There are many more quotes I could make, but I THE HON. G. E. D. BRAND (Lower would be simply talking for the sake of North) [4.41 pi.m.]: I wish to support this talking. I do not want to read all of these Bill. This subject has been a favourite of Personal letters; I have read enough to con- mine for a long time. Before I entered vince members that public feeling is very Parliament, I attended a few lectures real, and there is an amount of revulsion given by Mr. Bonney and a dental team in connection with this matter. To me the in Kalgoorlie. At that time, they were whole thing is abhorrent. I am a free lecturing throughout the country and citizen and I will not be compelled to take making the general public aut /fat in anything into my body which I do not regard to fluoridation. People were in- want to take; and nobody can tell me that vited to ask questions so they could find [Thursday, 27 October, 1966.1 1789 out what they wanted to know. This is a firmatory studies in this and other popular Bill. countries are given below- The Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: Did You 1. Dean, H. T. say it was a popular Bill? 2. Forrest, J. R. The Hon. G. E. D. BRAND: I mean 3. Ainsworth, N. J. popular in the sense that everybody is 4. Clarke, J. H. Chalmers speaking to it. 5. Cowan, K. The Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: That would 6. Dirks, 0. Backer have been the understatement of 1966. 7. Hornung, H. The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: It is popular 8. James, P. M. C. because everybody is speaking to it. I listened to Mr. Ferry speak of medical 9. Ockerse, T. history from the earliest times-in the 10. Weaver, R. 19th Century-when specialists in Europe He has been quoted as being an anti- and other places made new discoveries. fluoridationist- The Hon. R. Thompson: They wvere 11. Report on the Conduct of the modern times. Fluoridation Studies in the United Kingdom (H.M.S.O.i, The H-on. G. E. D. BRAND: People who July, 1962. made discoveries in early times were There are many questions answered in scoffed at and wvere not recognised until this booklet, and it is completely unbiased. many Years afterwards. In those days the I think Mrs. Hutchison mentioned fish, and causes of a great deal of sickness and death were the touching of patients with there is a reference to fish in this book. unclean hands and uncleanliness gener- Another question is, "Is fluoridated water ally. The fluoridation of water supplies harmful to fish?" The answer is as vol- will help children right from conception. lows:- They will be protected from dental caries In Indianapolis the Water Company or tooth decay. has placed an aquarium in the enl- trance lobby of their offices showinQ The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: Why not healthy goldfish living in fluoridated give them tablets? town water. As regards salt water The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: I Wvi1l come fish, sea water already contains ap- to that in about an hour. It is interesting proximately 1 p.p.m. of fluoride. to read in Hansard what Dr. Henn had t~o That is our fishy story for today. We say about fluoridation. It is possible for know that Mrs. Hutchison is one who loves us to gain quite a deal of knowledge from children and loves to help them in her what we read. A dentist in Kalgoorlie own particular sphere. gave mue a booklet on the fluoridation of The H-on. R. F. Hutchison: I like other water supplies which was reprinted by people, Permission of the British Dental Associa- too. tion. It consists of questions and answers. The H-on. 0. E. D. BRAND: I am sure and the opinions expressed are unbiased. that Mrs. Hutchison would like to help Mr. Dolan said the Minister did not give everybody. I am positive that by adding sufficient proof that the fluoridation of fluoride to the water, children will be saved water supplies was beneficial, so I shall a lot of the awful pain of toothache, from read the first question and answer from the time of their birth. this booklet- The H-on. R. F. Hutchison: How are 1. Q. Has it been proved conclu- you positive? sively that fluoride in drinking water The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: I am posi- really does reduce the incidence of tive. dental decay? The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: How can A. Yes. This is no longer in doubt. you possibly be positive? Studies by H. Trendley Dean and his The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: I am posi- collaborators (1942) of 7,257 white tive: and I have lost my place in my notes. children, aged 12 to 14 years. in 21 The PRESIDENT: Order! Order! cities in four States in U.S.A., showed The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: I cannot an inverse relationship between the is against fluoride content of the drinking water make out why Mrs. Hutchison and the incidence of dental caries. In this measure when it will be so beneficial the low-fluoride areas dental caries to children. rates were high, but dropped rapidly The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: Mr. Dolan as the fluoride concentration in the is against it too. What about him? water rose until about one part per The PRESIDENT: Order! Order! Will million Q1 p.p.m.) was reached, after Mrs Hutchison desist from interjecting. which there was little further im- She has made one speech and I request provement. A study by Miss 3. R. that she allow Mr. Brand to make his Forrest (1956) in this country, though speech. on a smaller scale, gave similar re- The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: I was point- sults. The references of further con- ing out that Mr. Dolan had spoken, too. 1790 1790COU'NCIL.]

The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: I have en- districts; and I quote Mr. D. G, Kailis, deavoured to point out the good things who was responsible for this survey, done by Mrs. Hutchison for children, but and who states- I think the children should be helped fur- The Cue and Meekatharra survey ther. I do not think that any honourable was carefully conducted and only member goes to a dentist with love in his children conforming to the following heart. Many of us who have to go to the criteria were included:- dentist require a stimulant. (1) Only children whose mothers The Hon. R. Thompson: What would were resident in the area your favourite stimulant be? during confinement, were The Hon, . Ea D. BRAND: I do not have selected. false teeth so I do require a stimulant. If (2) Children not in continuous 1 had received fluoride when I was a child residence from the age of I would not have had to go to the dentist birth to five years were as frequently as I did. excluded. The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: How do you (3) Only children who drank know? I know mothers who have given naturally fluoridated water their children fluoride for six years, and were included. those children still go to the dentist. (4) Children absent from the The Hon. 0, E. D. BRAND: I do not area for more than three know: my mother did not give mue fluoride. months were excluded. She did not talk very much, either. (5) Children who had been on The PRESIDENT: Order! Order! fluoride tablets were excluded. He 'went on to say- The Hon. G. E. D. BRAND: My mother was very careful about allowing me to I would like to stress that the ques- eat Jollies, and such things. Until about tionnaire was supervised by two Pub- the age of 12 years, my teeth were a lic Health sisters a month prior to healthy shade of green. My father was-- the survey. The Hon. J. Dolan: Irish! Dr. Silva and I then analysed the questionnaires and selected the The Hon. G. E. D. BRAND: No, he was sample. The same criteria were used not. It must have been because of my for the selection of the Meekatharra mother's care, and because of a good diet, sample of school children, but of which prevented me from having much course in Meekatharra the exclusion trouble with my teeth when I was young. of children on fluoride tablets was It was mentioned in another place, in most important. 1963, that Cue was well noted because of the fluoride content of the wvater. The following are the results of those investigations:- The Hon. R. Thompson: What sort of Aim of Investigations: fluoride? Sodium fluoride? To compare the caries life experi- The Hon. G. E. D. BRAND: It is all ence of pre-school and school age fluoride. The latest figure from Cue shows children in Cue and Meekatharra. that the water contains 1.2 parts of fluoride per million. Choice of Towns: These two towns were chosen for The Hon. R. Thompson: Calcium, the following reasons:- natural, or sodium fluoride? (1) Cue has a naturally fluori- The Hon. G. E. D. BRAND: It is fluoride. dated bore water supply con- The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: There you taining 1.25 pp.m. F. This are; you know nothing about it. concentration of fluoride has The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: That is been proved in many coun- what I said; both of us know nothing tries to be the optimal con- centration of fluoride in about it! water 'which ingested from The PRESIDENT: Order! Order! birth, decreases caries incid- The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: A survey dence between 50 per cent. was taken in the Murchison area, and I and 60 per cent. will quote the remarks of the member for (2) Meekatharra was used as a Murchison, made in another place in 1963. control area, and its bore They are as follows:- water supply contained 0.4 Let us now return to the town of p.p.m. P. which is considered Cue. When the water supply 'was suboptimal. established It was also taken to the (3) Both towns are in the same town of Day Dawn, where there were geographic area, experiencing approximately 10,000 people. The the same climatic conditions, numbers have of course declined socio-economic status and tremendously since then. Recently, have similar industries. however, it was decided by the Faculty Personnel Examined: of Dental Science to carry out a (1) A total of 90 children were ex- survey in the Cue and Meekatharra amnined for caries, 38 in Cue and [Thursday, 27 October. 1966.] 1791

52 in Meekatharra. Their ages (3) Using Meekatbarra as a base ranged from one to 15 years. line, which can be done as it (2) Only children who had been born has similar climatic, socio- and raised in Meekatbarra and economic and industrial con- Cue were selected for the investi- ditions to Cue, the overall gation. caries experience of the chil- dren examined shows a re- (3) Of these, only those children who duction in had drunk the town's water Supply Cue of approxi- from birth and who had not been mately 62 per cent. given any fluoride tablets were (4) This investigation has been chosen. rewarding and merits further Pre- work, especially in those School School Total towns in the area with less or Cue ...... 22 16 38 no natural occurring fluoride Meekatharra 12 40 52 in the water supplies. There is a lot more, but I will not go fur- 34 56 90 ther. I will now read to the House a letter received by me. The person who wrote it Records Obtained: not only blamed the Government and my- The following table shows the caries self, but hie also blamed Mrs. Brand for life experience (teeth that have been introducing fluoride. The letter is as fol- affected by decay from birth) in Cue lows:- and Meekatharra, children per 100 10 Balwarra. Avenue. teeth... Dianella. I shall not read all the statistics, 4th September. 1966. except to point out that in Cue among Mr. and Mrs. George Brand, pre-school age children 4.14 per 100 Your intention to Fluoridate our teeth were decayed, or else were ex- water supply is a sad disappointment tracted early in life, or were filled. In to me. Have you considered that Meekatharra the number per 100 whereas this Fluoridation may help teeth was 12.5 in the same category. some, there is a wealth of evidence to The total percentage of teeth affected indicate that many people in the older by caries in the case of Cue was ap- groups who have ailments will be seri- proximately 12 per cent.: and 94 out ously affected. of '784 teeth were so affected. In the It has been proven that Fluorides case of Meekatharra 382 out of 1,181 can damage Brain Cells, Kidneys, Re- teeth were affected by caries, or ap- production, Thyroid Glands and last proximately 32 per cent. but not least the Liver. Regarding the proportion of pre- In my case I am so concerned, that school children affected by caries, in I will have to install rainwater tanks Cue 17 out of 22 pre-school children for my own water supply, although were completely free from caries: this is very inconvenient to mec and while in Meekatharra six out of 12 will cost money which I can ill afford. pre-school children were similarly There are many others who are placed. Turning to the proportion of against drinking this water who can- school children affected by caries, in not Possibly afford to install their own the case of Cue two out of 16 children water supply. were free from caries, while in Meeka- After all, people who are in favour tharra no school children were free of Fluoride can give their young chil- from caries. dren tablets and these are the only On the proportion of decayed tooth section of the community which can surfaces, in Cue 15 surfaces were af- possibly benefit from Fluoride. The fected per 100 teeth, while in Meeka- danger in adding Fluorides to our tharra 47 surfaces were affected Per water is that some people drink per- 100 teeth. haps five or six times wore water I draw attention to the general con- than others and can therefore get a clusions contained in that survey. dangerous dosage. They are as follows:- Why have 170 communities around General Conclusions. the world discontinued Fluoridation (1) The pre-school children in after trying it? Meekatharra had three timres The Hon. J. M. Thomson: How many the dental decay that the communities discontinued? pre-school children in Cue The Hion. G. E. D). BRAND: The num- had experienced. ber to discontinue was 170, but we do (2) The school age children in not know how true that is. With some Meekatharra had twice the assistance, I was able to reply to that dental decay that the school letter as follows:- children in Cue had experi- Thank you for your letters and the enced. information regarding views on fluori- 1792 1792CONCIL.]

dation. At the outset, let me reassure will be no damage to brain, kidney, you on the safety of fluoridation. I reproduction, thyroid and liver, nor am impressed with the weight of to any other tissue. It will, however, evidence presented by health auth- improve teeth and bone and, in fact, orities1 particularly the World Health the advantages to the bones of old Organisation which has stated "there people and in preventing the bone has never been a public health meas- changes occurring during the meno- ure which has had so much testing pause has not been publicised enough. in time and extent before being intro- There is no question of a dangerous duced to the public as has fluorida- effect from drinking fluoridated tion". waters no matter how much a person There has been some grievous harm drinks because the body has a physio- perpetrated on some old people, not by logical control and he could not pos- fluoridation, but by the fear-monger- sibly drink enough water to accumulate ing of antifluoridation literature. enough fluoride to harm him. There is currently a case in Perth I have not checked to see if your who last month smelled and tasted figure of 170 is correct for places fluoride in the water supply and went having once started and discontinued ill with kidney trouble which he fluoridation. The number doesn't claims was caused by fluoride poison- matter; the reason does? It has ing. When he began drinking tank never been discontinued because it is water the symptoms disappeared. No not safe. These cases you mention fluoride has been added to our water have occurred mainly in U.S.A. where but this man had read antifluorida- local government often controls edu- tion pamphlets and had read of the cation and water supply and as local Government's intention to seek per- governments change so do their mission to fluoridate. The anti- policies. It is interesting to note in fluoridationists must accept some this context that, in 1964, nine U.S. blame for this man's condition. water supplies discontinued fluorida- The safety of the measure has been tion but nine which bad discontinued well and truly investigated before be- restarted fluoridating. ing recommended by the National It is not my intention to knock all Health and Medical Research Council anti fluoridationists as cranks and in to the Australian States. If there is the lunatic fringe, but I must admit any harm occasioned by fluoridation I get very cross with the fear-mong- you can rest assured that I will work ering, with its definite relation to to have it discontinued. So far there psycho-somatic disturbances, which has been no authenticated case of has been associated with some anti harm in Tasmania from which the propaganda. I hope this letter will Bruce H. Brown article appears to reassure You on the question of safety have emanated in spite of fluoridation and that you have no cause for con- having been in operation there for cern: but do not hesitate to write if many years at Beaconsfield and more there are any particular points on recently at Hobart. This safety is in which you may need more reassur- keeping with the safety demonstrated ance. in New South Wales and in 30 other The Hon. R. Thompson: Who wrote countries including America where that? more than 60 million people are drink- ing water either naturally or artifi- The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: 1 did, but cially fluoridated. I did get some help with it. The Bruce H4. Brown article is a The H-on. L. A. Logan: The important new one to me but quotes some old thing is: Did you sign it? names whose views on fluoridation The Hon. R. Thompson: What degrees have been investigated by competent do You hold to compile a statement such authorities and, having been scienti- as that? fically evaluated, been discounted for The Hon. 0. E. D. BRAND: For some want of evidence. This applies also weeks I have been collecting newspaper to Dr. Waldbott. The report of the cuttings from articles on fluoride, but I hearings of the Ameriean House of am not going to read all of them to the Representatives presents no new evi- House. dence which has not been investigated by the United States Public Health The Ron. R. F. Hutehison: Have you Department which still advocates asked any of your constituents what they fluoridation. It is interesting to note think of fluoridation? that Detroit, where Waldbott lives, is The Hon. G. E. D. BRAND: In one or fluoridated. two of the newspaper cuttings I have col- It is disheartening to hear you have lected, statements have been made that been scared to such an extent that fluoridation is of no benefit to the com- You contemplate the expense of in- munity, and reasons are given. Other stalling a private water supply when people are reported as having asked: "Why such is completely unnecessary. There not issue fluoride tablets, because we do [Thursday. 27 October, 1966.1 1793

not agree with the principle of compul- tion of water supplies is wrong. that is one sion?" method which they can use to suit their The Hon. R. Thompson: I wonder own convenience. whether You could send a copy of them The I-on. R. F. Hutchison: Why should to the 7,101 people who have signed the we do that? Why should not those who petition which I have here. are in favour of the fluoridation of water The Hon, G. E. D. BRAND: Some people supplies purchase water tanks for them- desire fluoride tablets to be issued to the selves and add fluoride to the water? community free of charge, but some do not. The PRESIDENT: There are far too Others want to know whether the children many interjections and I ask that they will get enough fluoride. Others have also cease. mentioned thalidomide, but they do not The Hon. C. R. ABBEY: I agree with actually say that fluoridation of water you, Mr. President. Every member can supplies is not beneficial. Other people make his speech at the proper time. Those state quite clearly that they are whole- who express their fears of fluoridation of heartedly in favour of fluoridation, but water supplies have my sympathy, but they they do not give any reasons. A letter have every right to express their opinion, from Mr. Taylor, the President of the and I have every right to express mine in Australian Dental Association (W.A. favour of fluoridation of water supplies. Branch), which appeared in The West It is well for people to listen to the argu- Australian, makes interesting reading. I ments advanced both for and against the believe fluoridation would be beneficial for fluoridation of water supplies. children, and I hope members will vote according to their conscience, and will be In the interim, from the time the first governed by their hearts and not their Bill to provide for the fluoridation of water heads. supplies was first introduced and the in- troduction of this measure which Is now THlE HON. C. ft. ABBEY (West) [5.5 before us, all members have given this sub- p.m.]: I support the measure, because I ject a great deal of thought, and have col- believe I should do so in the interests of lected much information on it. Although all people in this State, particularly chil- the Minister generalised a little, when he dren. If we accept our positions in Parlia- introduced the Bill I thought he gave a ment as the representatives of the people clear explanation of the reasons advanced we have to support this Bill- by the Government for bringing the Bill before Parliament. Those in government The Hon. R. F. Hutchison: Speak f.or are responsible for bringing forward meas- yourself! ures which they consider will be for the The Hon. C. R. ABBEY: -and that is good of the community, and on some occas- the reason why I intend to vote for this ions it takes real fortitude to do this. measure. Responsibility is something Those people who do not desire to install which some people find hard to accept, a rainwater tank in which to store un- but I do not find it difficult. There has fluoridated water, and who are fearful of been a great mass of literature published drinking water that is fluoridated, can setting out arguments for and against the adopt a simple method of their own to fluoridation of water supplies, and many extract fluoride from the water. However, of these publications have been quoted by I very much doubt, when the Bill is passed. members in this Chamber. In addition, that they will bother about it. The an- the Press has published many articles on tagonism that has been shown against this the subject, and I am absolutely convinced measure has developed into a kind of cru- that the weight of evidence is in favour sade by the people who are objecting. of fluoridation. because they are intent on the defeat of The Hon. J. MA.Thomson: Of water the Bill. supplies? The Health Education Council of West- The I-on. C. R. ABBEY: Yes, fluorida- ern Australia has available methods which tion of water supplies. The taking of can be used to remove fluoride from the fluoride by other means undermines the water supply, and any interested person benefit of facility of fluoridation of water can obtain from the council a copy of an supplies. Most people freely admit that article taken from The Medical Officer, fluoride can be of great benefit to children, volume 110, dated the 6th September, 1963. but many quibble only over the methods This article reads as follows:- by which fluoride should be ingested. It "DO-IT-YOURSELF" is clear to me that there are methods DEFLUORIDATOR which can be used by those who resent. The GUARDIAN of 26th August pub- or who are not in favour of fluoridation lishes instructions for a cheap "do-it- of water supplies. One member suggested yourself' method of defluoridating that a water tank could be used for storing water based on a full version drawn unfluoridated water. The initial cost of up by Dr. J. H. Fremlin, reader in purchasing a rainwater tank, of course, physics at Birmingham University, would be rather expensive for the purpose who, whilst himself in favour of of having unfluoridated water, but for fluoridation, thinks it may be worth those who consider that general fluorida- while to make available for the time .COUNCIL.]

being a means by which fluoride can four for at least six months before a be removed from water "so that the fresh change of bonemeal is required." peace of mind of the small disturbed Dr. Fremlin has sent copies of his in- minority can be protected." structions to opponents of fluoridation, The GUARDIAN'S reporter writes: and the GUARDIAN states that he has "All you need is two pounds of bone- other copies available. meal, a gravy strainer, a cocoa tin, a Of course, de-ionisers--a mechanical plastic funnel, and a jam jar. device to take fluoride out of water-can "Any handyman who learns the prin- be used by those who reject fluoridation. ciples (scientific as distinct from Aithough what I have said has raised ethical) of taking fluoride from water some mirth, to the Health Education could devise his own equipment, but Council and the doctors concerned it is a Dr. Fremlin has worked out for the serious matter, because this device enables rest of us a set of simple instructions. those who are opposed to fluoridation to "The first step, as stated, is to heat take fluoride out of the water by an easy two pounds of bonemeal, which can and cheap method. The trouble that is be purchased for 9d. a pound from any caused to those who desire to take the gardening shop. (In a preliminary fluoride out of the water is more than experiment, Dr. Fremlin took the bone matched by the inconvenience that is of a Sunday joint and smashed it up caused to parents who are required to with a hammer-a troublesome pro- give fluoride tablets to their children for 10 or 12 years. I should point out that cedure which he does not recommend.) the opponents of fluoridation say that the "Before heating, however, the bone- taking of fluoride tablets by children is meal should be sifted vigorously in a a good thing, and that parents should gravy strainer or flour sieve to remove supply their children with them; but why all the dust. The meal must then be should the children of this State and their heated sufficiently 'to carbonize its parents be put to this inconvenience? organic content' (to turn it black). This can be done by placing it in a (Sustained outburst from the gallery.) cocoa tin and burying it in the domes- The PRESIDENT: Order! tic fire, preferably overnight in a slow (Outburst continued froma the gallery.) combustion stove. The PRESIDENT: Order! The Hon. C. E. Griffiths: One would die The Hon. C. R. AB3BEY: The outburst of thirst by the time one did all that. we have just heard emphasizes the irra- PRESIDENT: Order! tional opposition to the measure before us. The I said when I started off that I do not The Hon. C. ft. ABBEY: The article regard those who oppose this measure continues- as cranks, and I consider they are entitled "The tin, it is emphasised, 'should to their opinion and they should be able have a lid to keep out ash, etc., but if to say what they think. However, out- the lid is close fitting, as in a vacuum- bursts such as the one we have just heard packed coffee tin, one or two fine holes are most regrettable. should be made in it to allow hot gases In the country we have been concerned to escape. A drawing pin will do this for a long time with the dental health of effectively.' the population, Particularly the children. "Having thus prepared the meal, the We have been heartened by the efforts of next stage is to fill three-quarters of this Government in providing dental ser- a jam Jar with it, and insert the fun- vices to the country. In co-operation nel. The water Is then Poured into with local authorities we have been able the jar and allowed to spill over the to engage dentists for quite a few centres, brim into a jug or basin. It is recom- by guaranteeing them a minimum income. mended that 'for full efficiency, water This has been a very successful move. from the tap should be run into the Often when a dentist has been estab- funnel at a rate not more than a pint lished in a fairly large country centre he In five minutes, little more than a half- finds it impossible to cope with all the drip.' dental work offering; and in such cases, LONG LIFE where the parents can afford it, the chil- "A more sophisticated method is to dren requiring urgent dental treatment use, instead of a jam jar, a plastic are often sent to the metropolitan area. boottle with holes bored at each end and If the incidence of dental decay among fitted with a nylon gauze filter. ('Part children can be reduced by fluoridation of an old nylon stocking will do then it will be Possible for the limited admirably, though two or three layers number of dentists in Western Australia of the finer gauzes maybe desirable.') to cope with the treatment that is re- The bottle can then be hung from the quired by the population. tap. The 'recipe' concludes: I pay a tribute to the Minister for " 'The limit to the capacity of suchl Health and to his predecessor for having devices has not yet been found, but the courage to introduce a very contro- either of those described should give versial measure. They Must have known enough drinking water for a family of it would raise a certain amount of [Thursday, 27 October, 1966.] 179579

opposition, but they have gone forward, all classes of boats engaged in and I admire them for the steadfast stand fishing north of Geraldton? which they have taken to face up to their Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: responsibility. Teggs Channel is a safe anchorage Debate adjourned, on motion by The providing boats' gear is in good Hon. F. R, H. Lavery. order. It is the only anchorage in that area and was used by the Mouse adjourned at 5.20 pi. Nor' West Whaling Company for its prawning vessels in bad weather. Number Operating: Onslow-South Passage 2. Mr. NORTON asked the Minister .representing the Minister for Flab- eries and Fauna: How many- (a) fishing boats; (b) trawlers: irgtlattiw Asaemblu (c) freezer boats; Thursday, the 27th October, 1966 (d) factory boats, CONTENTS were operating north of South Page Passage and south of Onslow RINUAL ESTIMATES, 1966-67- during the past six months? Committee of Supply :General Debate~ Speakers on Financial Policy- Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: Mr. Evans...... 1808 Mre.Norton...... 1808 Precise information is not avail- Votes and Items Discussed 18li able, but approximately- BILLS-- (a) information not available. Industrial Arbitratien Act Amlendmlent Bll-ReorOt 1800 (b) 45 (including 18 freezer Medical Act Amendment Hill- boats). Sr...... 1800 Corn. ;Report ...... 1802 (e) 25. Pensioners (Rates Exemption) Bll-2r...... 1802 (d) L. QUESTIONS ON NOTICE- IRON ORE Child Minding Centres :Provision by Government 1798 Child Welfare :illegal Fostering and Adoptions ... 1797 Reserve No. 2323 at Muecan: Details Claremont Mental Rospital-S. J. Morris :Tabling of Application or Personal File...... 1799 Fishing Boats- 3. Mr. KELLY asked the Minister repre- Number Operating :. Onslow-South Passage 1795 senting the Minister for Mines: Teggs Channel ,Safety at Anchorage 1795 Fishing.-Sperms Whales : Radioactivo Centamina- (1) What was the number of the lion...... 1797 grant which covered part of ap- High Sohoel Studeetes-Cemmerctnli Educeation"' Permission to Attend Outside Courses...... 1199 plication No. 2323 issued at Muc- Mining- can in the Pilbara goldfield to Iron Ore--Easerve No. 2323 at Muecen .Do- Consolidated Gold Fields (Aus- calls of Appliention ...... 1195 Payne's Find State Bettery : Recondittonng .... 1797 tralia) Pty. Ltd., Cyprus Mines Temporary Reserves :Regulations under Act 1798 Corporation and Utah Construc- Oll-Esporance: Permit Arees and Exploratory Work...... t796 tion & mining Company? Pastoral Lease--vestey's Holdings :Agreement on (2) What was the date of the applica- Regeneration...... 1799 Railway-- tion for this area, made by the Standard Gauge Railway- above companies? Damage to Sleepers .... 1798 (3) What number of square miles Locomsotives : Ordere and Deliveries .. 1798 Rotling Stock : Major Overhauls.....179 were contained in the portion Roads-hlarble Bar and Nuilalege Areaa Alloca- granted- tions by Male Roads Department...... 1798 Transport-Wayne Report:.Consideration and Im- (a) to the companies; plementation .. 1797 (b) to Messrs. E. J. Reck and D. Wllddowers-filgnl Picking :Prosecutions 1797 A. H. Shilling? QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE- (4) What additional reserves were Totalleator Agency Board-Winnlng Ticket Issued granted to the companies adja- to M~r.Nettle :Legal Action...... 1800 cent to No. 2323, and what was the number of square miles con- The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearnian) took the tained in the reserves? Chair at 2.15 p.m., and read prayers. (5) Reference to his answer to part (7) of question 13 on the 20th QUESTIONS (19): ON NOTICE October, 1966, what were the FISHING BOATS "Relative Merits" which decided Teggs channel: Sajetp) of Anchorage the granting of the part reserve No. 2323 to the companies? 1.Mr. NORTON asked the Minister for Works: Mr. BOVELL replied: is Teggs Channel at Carnarvon (1) Temporary Reserve 2330H. considered a safe anchorage for (2) The 21st August. 196;