Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 27 OCTOBER 1892

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1672 Messages from the Governor. [ASSEMBLY.] Proposed Motion for AdJournment.

PB.OPOSED MOTION FOR ADJOURN­ MENT. On Mr. SPEAKER saying : I shall now proceed to discover the formal business, ;yrr. HOOLAN said: Mr. Speaker,-I wish to move the adjournment of the House, if it is in keeping with regular business under the new Standing Orders. The SPEAKER : I shall now proceed to dis­ cover the formal business. I will deal with the question raised by the, hon. member presently. The formal business having been discovered, The SPEAK:BJR :. Before calling over the formal business, I would point out that I have received a letter from the hon. member for Burke, Mr. Hoolan, in which he states that, with the Speaker's permission, he will move the adjournment of the House to-day to discuss the papers recently laid before Parliament relating to the Peak Downs gold discovery and to the hon. member himself. In reply to that letter I pointed out to the hon. member-I do not know whether he has received my note-- Mr. HOOLAN: No; I have not. The SPEAKER: I pointed out in that note that the subject the hon. member proposes to bring forward under a motion for adjournment cannot be received. The 130th Standing Order provides- " A motion for the adjournment of the House, other than the usual motion to terminate the sitting of the House at the end of the business of the day, shall not be entertained, except for the purpose of debating a definite matter of urgent public importance, the subject of which has been first stated to Mr. Speaker in writing." The subject which the hon. member desires to bring forward I cannot treat as urgent, because the papers to which the hon. member refers were laid on the table of the House on the 11th of this month, and the hon. men1ber has had an oppor­ tunity since that date of giving ordinary notice of motion, and bringing on the discussion of the subject in the usual way. As the hon. member has neglected to do that, I cannot treat the question as one of urgency, and the Standing Order I have quoted specially provides that the subject to be brought under the notice of the House shall be one of urgency. There is another reason, to which I need hardly LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. refer, which would prevent the hon. member from bringing this question forward under a Thursdcty, 27 October, 1892. motion for adjournment. I would suggest that Messages from His I~xcellency the Governor: Assent to the hon. member should give notice of motion in Bills.-Proposed }lotion for Adjournment.-Formal the ordinary way, and then he can discuss the Motions.-Petition: Swanbank Collierir'3, Limited, matter in the same way as any other matter can Bill.-Union Trustee Company of Australia, Limited, be discussed of which notice has been given. Act Amendment Bill: Committee.-Railway Work­ Mr. BLACK said: Mr. Speaker,-I do not shops at Maryborough.-)!essage from the Legisla­ know whether I am in order in taking the course tive Council: Rockhampton School of Arts Bill.­ I am ~tbout to take. I request the House to take Q,uestion Without 2'\otice: Resignation of the Chief into consideration what I would now propose­ Justice.-Temporar.v Harbours ]~ill: First reading. that is, that the Standing Orders be suspended, in --SUpply: Report from Committee.-Federal uouncil order to allow the hon. member for Burke an opportunity of stating his case. Referring Bill (Queensland I No. 2: Second Reading. -Supply: Resumption of Conunittee; Committee. HoNOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! -Message from the Legislative Council: Harbour Mr. BLACK: There is no doubt a very Boards Bill.-Seat Declared Vacant.-Adjournment. serious charge has been made, and it is only right, if this House will only allow the matter to The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past be ventilated, that it should be ventilated. I 3 o'clock. desire to see fair play to all hon. members MESSAGES :B'ROM HIS EXCELLENCY in this House, We have all had an oppor­ tunity of perusing these papers, and, in THE GOVERNOR. consequence of some slight informality in the ASSENT TO BILLS. notice given by the hon. member for Burke, you, The SPEAKER announced the receipt of Sir, have ruled that the question cannot be m~ssages from the Governor, intimating that brought forward. I defer to your ruling, Mr. H1s Excellency had assented to the Fitzroy Speaker; I admit it is perfectly correct; but I Bridge Loan Bill and the Church of England believe we have the privilege of suspending our Land Sale Bill. Standing Orders, and I move, without notice, Proposed Motion [27 OcTOBER.] for Adjournment. 1673 that the Standing Orders be suspended, in order The SPEAKER : By a motion for adjourn­ to give the hon. member for Burke an oppor­ ment. tunity of stating his case to this House. Mr. POWERS : Then the question arises HoNOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! whether the Standing Orders should not be sus­ . The SPEAKER : Before I put that ques­ pended, as proposed by the hon. member for tiOn I may point out another difficulty which JYiackay, for the purpose of allowing the hon. ari~es in connection with this matter. Standing member for Burke to discuss this case. Last Order 130 does not define the business which may night, in order to assist a certain section of the be brought under discussion in this particular community, or, as it was said, the community form. But it is provided that where no special generally, the Standing Orders were smpended rule is adopted by this House the rule of the for the purpose of allowing the mbbit question to House of Commons must be followed ; and the be brought on one day earlier. I think there rule of the House of Commons in connection with can be nothing more urgent than a question motions of adjournment forbids us discussing relating to the honour of a member of this House. such a subject as that which the hon. member The matter referred to in the papers which have proposes to discuss-namely, one which affects a been laid on the table of the House took place at member personally. It is laid down that- Croydon; and I can easily understand that the hon. member might not have been in a posi­ ." ~atters, _also, which cannot be debated save upon a d1St1nct motwn, as stated in rule No. 150, such as the tion to answer the charge made against him conduct of the Sovereign, the Heir to the Throne, the at an earlier date than to-day. I have always Viceroy and Governor-General of India, the Lord­ understood that there can be nothing more Lieutenant of Ireland, the Speaker, the Chairman of urgent than the integrity of public men; Ways and Means, members of either House of Parlia­ and whether this House is prepared or not ment, and the judgt·•• of the superior courts of the United Kingdom, cannot be questioned upon a motion to accept the hon. member as a public man, for adjournment under Standing Order No. 17., a certain constituency in the colony has made him a public man, and he should be allowed I would point out that matters relating to mem­ an opportunity of refuting the charge made bers of the House are usually treated as matters against him by a private individual. I have of privilege, and if the hon. member desires his very great pleasure in supporting the motion own conduct or position to be discussed, the for the suspension of the Standing Orders, and I question should be brought on as a matter of hope the House will agree to it. The hon. mem­ privilege. The rule of this House in regard to ber may have wanted all this time for the purpose matters of privilege is much the same in one of refuting the charge, seeing that what is alleged respect as the rule of the House of Commons. to have taken place occurred at Croydon. Our 42nd Standing Order provides that- " An urgent motion, directly concerning the privileges The SPEAKER : I may point out to the of the House, shall take precedence of other motions as House that the hon. member will have an oppor­ well as of Orders of the Day." tunity of refuting the charge made against him to­ The motion which it was now proposed to make morrow if he gives notice of motion to-day. The ~an scarcely be regarded as urgent, although notice can be given to-day and the matter can be 1t refers to a member of the House, seeing discussed to-morrow, when hon. members will be that it has been allowed to stand for sixteen days warned by the notice on the paper that. it will without any action being taken. come on for discussion. The rule with respect to the suspension of the Standing Orders is as Mr. POWERS said: Mr. Speaker,-If the follows:- rules of the British House of Commons, or any "Any of the foregoing Standing Rules and Orders other House of Commons, will not allow an hon, may be suspended or dispensed with by the House ; but member to defend himself from a very serious a motion shall not be made to suspend or dispense with charge made against him, the best thing we can any such rules or orders without due notice thereof, do is to suspend them for the time being. except by leave of the House, which leave shall not be granted if six members dissent therefrom." The SPEAKER: The hon. member is quite wrong; he has misunderstood me altogether. When the Chief Secretary asked that the Stand­ The rules of the House of Commons allow a ing Orders be suspended, without notice, last member to defend himself, and the rules of this night, it was done by leave of the House without House also allow a member to defend his con­ a dissentient voice. If the hon. member for duct ; but they further provide that before Mackay wishes to move that the Standing Orders an hon. member can claim to occupy the be suspended to-day it is my duty to put the time of the House as a matter of precedence motion. in his own defence he shall show that the Mr. BLACK: I do. case is an urgent une, and an urgent case is Mr. GLASSEY said: Mr. Speaker,-Before defined as " one suddenly arising, or a case you put the motion it is only right that I should which could not have been brought before the say something as to why the hon. member for House at an earlier time." What I wish the Burke, Mr. Hoolan, has not availed himself of House to understand is that there is no more an earlier opportunity-- urgency in this case now than there was on the 11th of the month, when the papers were laid on The SPEAKER : It is not the hon. mem ~he ~a~le of the House. I may say that it her's business to defend the hon. member 1s wrthm my own knowledge that on the for Burke in any way. The hon. member for ll.th of the month, when the papers were Burke can make his own explanation. It is not lard on the table, the hon. member availed for one hon. member to explain the conduct of himself of the opportunity of looking over another. I ask the House whether there are any them. They were printed and distributed a objections to the motion being put? · few days afterwards, and it is a fact that the Mr. NELSON : I object. hon. !ller_nber has had an opportunity, not only Mr. ANNEAR: I object. I hitve business on of brmgmg on the matter as an urgent case, but the paper. even to have given notice of a motion in the ordinary way, and still have brought it on last Mr. NELSON: It would make the Standing, week, which makes it clear that the case cannot Orders a farce. be regarded as one of urgency n·)w. Mr. GLASSEY: They will not last for ever. Mr. POWERS said: Mr. Speaker,-I mis­ The SPEAKER: I ask hon. members who understood you ; I thought you stated that this object to the proposed suspension of the St:1nding case could not be brought on now-- Orders, without notice, to rise in their places, 1674 Union Trustee Company of [ASSEMBLY.] Australia, 9-"c., Bill.

Seven hon. members having risen in their apply to wills made before the passing of the Act? places, It 'eemed very unfairthatwhena man made a will The SPEAKER: The question cannot be put. appointing executors and trustees, Parliament Mr. POWERS : I am glad there are only should give the executors power to delegate their seven members to rise. duties to a company never intended by the testator to act. A provision ought to be inserted Mr. ANJ'\EAR : \Ve can take the responsi­ that the Act should not apply to any wills made bility of our own action. I could not get my before the company came into existence. business on last week. The SPEAKER: I suggest to the hon. mem­ Mr. POvVERS said, with reference to the ber for Burke that he can give notice of a motion objection raised, if the court did not think the for to-morrow. companv fit to act it would not allow it to act. The question had been debated as to \V,hether HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! such companies should be allowed to occupy Mr. HOOLAN said: Mr. Speaker,-I give positions of trust, and decided in the affirmative. notice that I intend to move to-morrow : That It might be an advantage to those interested this Ho us~ be invited to discuss the papers to allow the administration of the will to be recently ~aid on the table of the House relating handed over to the company. The clause was to the dtscovery of the Peak Downs Gold :Field really a copy of the clause already inserted in and ~he imputations upon myself contained the (.lueensland Trustees, Limited, Bill, and had there m. been fully discussed. The SPEAKER: Will the hon. member put Mr. JONES said he should be very sorry if any that in writing? action of his would put the company into a posi­ tion in which thev would not have so free a hand J!'ORMAL MOTIONS. as any other company. No provision was made to The following formal motions were agreed to :­ say that persons beneficially interested in a will By Mr. BARLOW-- should have notice of such an application. The clause ought to go further and say that before That the r~solution of the House o! yesterday, by whiCh the petitiOn of the Swunbank Collieries, Limited, any order was made by the court the consent of was received, be rescinded, and the said petition be the beneficiaries should be given. The clause withdrawn. contained a very dangerous power, and certainly By Mr. O'CONJ'\ELL- he hoped the Supreme Court would make a That_an address be presented to the Governor, praying general rule that no such appointment should be that His Excellency will be pleased to cause to be laid made until the persons interested under the will UJ?Oll the table of this House the papers in connection had had notice. w1th the removal of "ll:r. Samuel Rowe from the com­ mission of the peace. Mr. POWERS said the objection was an important one; but he was perfEctly satisfied By the SECRETARY FOR LANDS (Hon. that they could trust the Supreme Court to A. S. Cowley), for the Chief Secretary- insist on notice being given to the persons likely That this House will, at its next sitting resolve itself to be interested in any will. into a Committee of the 1Vhole to consider' the desirable­ ness of introducing a Bill to authorise the extension of Mr. JONES said he did not doubt that the the terD).s of leases of holdings and runs. in certain court would see that no injustice was done to 1)arts of the colony, on conditio.n of improveinents being the people interested under the will, but it was a made thereon to prevent the incursion of rabbits. very strange thing that where a testator made a will and appointed a trustee, the trustee should PETITION. be allowed to substitute the company, and no SwANnANK Cor"LIERIEs, LIMITED, BILL. prodsiun was made for notice being given Mr. BARLOW presented a petition from the to the beneficiaries so that they might object Swanbank Collieries, Limited, praying for leave if they wished. As Lord Thurlow had said, to introduce a Bill to authorise the Swanbank corporations had neither body to be kicked or Collieries, Limited, to construct a branch line of soul to be damned. \Vhat an individual would railway connecting with a branch line con· not do a dozen individuals together would a~ree structed by Lewis Thomas, on the Southe1:n and to do. No such power should be granted \Vestern Ra_il.way. The Standing Orders govern· unless notice was given and it was advertised. mg such petttwns had been complied with· and he Mr. POWERS said the clause had already moved that the petition be received. ' received great criticism, and had passed the Question put and passed. scrutiny of the Attorney-General, the Solicitor­ General, and other legal gentlemen. If the hon. UNION TRUSTEE COMPANY 01!' AUS­ gentleman had been in the House before, he TRALIA, LIMITED, ACT AMEND­ would acknowledge that sufficient protection was MEJ'\T BILL. given in the subsection. I£ the hon. gentleman did not. intend to move any amendment, he On the Order of thP Day being read, would move, on the 15th line, after the word Mr. POWERS said: Mr. Speaker,-I move "named," the insertion of the words "as that you do now leave the chair. executors." Question put and passed. Amendment agreed to. COMiiiiTTEE. On the motion of Mr. POWERS, further The preamble was postponed. verbal amendments were made in the clause. Clauses 1 and 2 passed as printed. Clause, as amended, put and passed. Clauses 4 and 5 passed as printed . . 9n cl.ause 3-" Per~on entitled to probate may JOin With company m applying for letters of Clause 6 passed with a verbal amendment. administration to the company"- Clause 7 put and negatived. Mr. JONES said the clause contained a proviso On clause 8, as follows :-

that it should not apply in any case in which the H Whenever it is necessary to prove that any notiPe testator had by his will expressed his desire that has not been given or that any disclosure or discovery the office of the executor should not be dele­ has not been made to the company, proof that no such gated, or that the company should not act in the notice has be'!3n given or that no such disclosure or trusts of the will. Many wills of persons now dbcovery has been made to the manager for the time being of the company shall be primdj'acle evidence that living had been made long before that companv no such notice has been given or that no such dis~ came into existence, and why should the clause closure or discovery has been made to the company." Union Trustee Company qf [27 OcTOBER.] Australia, tfc., Bill. 1675

Mr. JONES said he objected strongly to the notice would be sufficient to convict the man. clause. It was one of the attempts often made Althou!J'h he was a member of the Select Com­ in modern legislation to do away with the grand mittee on the Bill he had not noticed that point, old English principle that every man was pre­ but perhaps the legal talent in the Committee sumed to be innocent until he was proved to be could suggest a way out of the difficulty. There guilty. Generally speaking, the burden of proof were difficulties on both 8ides. On the one side was thrown on the party making the charge, but all the officials might have to be called, and on according to the clause a man had to prove a the other a conviction depended upon the oath of negative, which was one of the most difficult one man. things in the world to do. It had to be proved Mr. POWERS said the manager's oath that that no notice had been given to the manager. notice had not been served on him was only Supposing the manager was away on a holiday, prim& facie evidence, and if a man said he had or on business ? served the notice on some other official, any judge The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. H. would allow him to call the person to whom the Tozer): Some other person would be appointed notice bad been given. to act for him. Mr. JONES said that if a man was charged Mr. JONES said it was all very well to say with a criminal prosecution, and the manager, that ; but supposing he went into the box after­ on oath, said that he had not received notice, wards and said he had never received any such it was not right to ask the accused to go into notice. The clause was a most dangerous one. the box to swear that he had served notice on It gave no protection to people who might come the company. A man was very seldom called in conflict with the company. The modern upon to prove a negative in a court of law. notion that a man charged with an offence should The first introduction of that principle was in be presumed to be guilty until he had proved cases when• a man was charged with defrauding himself innocent was contrary to his notion of the revenue, when he was presumed to be guilty what was fair and just. It was subverting all until he proved himself innocent. But that · the rules of evidence, and no such clause should principle did not permeate their jurisprudence, be passed. There was great difficulty in proving and he objected to the clause, because it put too that notice had been given, when a man swore much power into the hands of the manager of the that he had not received it. company. It ought to be struck out. Mr. POWERS said that the clause only pro­ Mr. POWERS said th~ law was that if notice vided that when an insolvent had to disclose his had to be given to the company all that was property to his trustee, notice should be given to necessary was to serve it at the registered office the manager. Under the principal Act it had of the company. The clause gave people a been held by a judge that a man could not be further protection, as it directed them to deliver convicted unless it could be proved that he had the notice to the manager himself. If a person given notice to each individual director; and in stated that he had delivered notice to the that case, the hon. member for Bulimba having manager, he would call the manager to prove been absent in England, the accused had been that, and that officer would then be subjected to acquitted. The clause only required notice to examination and cross-examination, so that really be given to the manager. the clause was an additional protection to the Mr. JONES said that the hon. gentleman had public. made a most extraordinary statement of the law. Mr. BARLOW said if he had to give notice Under the Companies Act a notice served at to the manager he would sit down on the door­ the registered office of the 'company was good step until he saw him and gave him the notice, service upon the company. Because one judge but a person with no knowledge of the law would had l;1,id down bad law, that was no reason why not do that ; he would probably hand the notice such a clause should be passed, shifting the into the office, and it might be put into a drawer. burden of proof. If the manager had to be It might be very difficult to disprove the prim& served with the notice personally, a man might facie evidence of the manager. have to wait for hours. The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said that Bill and Mr. POWERS said that in the case he had its sister Bill were the outcome of practical ex­ referred to the prosecution conducted by the perience of the working of those companies, and Southern Crown Prosecutor, Mr. Virgil Power, every clause had been fully discussed in all its had failed because notice had not been served bearings before legislation was attempted on the upon all the directors ; and it was proposed to subject. The same powers as were contained in rectify that. that clause bad been granted to the Queens­ Mr. JONES said that the clause would give land Trusteeg, and he should be very sorry the manager power to go into the box and swear indeed if any restriction were inserted in the he had not been served with a notice, although Bill before the Committee. There must be it might have been legally served upon the some officer to whom the disclosure of in­ company. formation should be made, and surely it would be sufficient to make it to the executive officer Mr. PO\VERS said that the manager of a of the company, without calling together the respectablecompany, such as that was, would not whole of the directorate for that purpose. The be likely to swear that notice had not been served difficulty raised as to the manager not being on him if it had been served on a director, or if accessible was purely imaginary ; he was quite it had been handed to one of the clerk~. They accessible, and anyone desiring to make a dis­ saw more extraordinary trustees than managers closure to him would certainly take the ordinary of companies of that sort, and that Bill was only precaution of leaving with him a written state­ dealing with that particular company, and not ment, so that a copy could be called for at any with companies in general. time to show that the information had been sup­ Mr. BARLOW said that a company could not plied. Those companies had previously conducted take an oath, except in the person of some of its their business on tentative conditions, and the officers.· He understood the point of the hon. first Acts were passed in the face of doubts as to member for Rockhampton North to be that if whether they would fulfil the expectations which the company was administering an estate in were formed of them ; but it would be generally insolvency, in order to avoid penal consequences admitted now that they had surpassed those it was necessary for the individual to disclose expectations, and were not only a great con­ certain things to the company, and that the oath venience, but undoubtedly a necessity. He would of the manager that he had not received personal not like Lo see a restriction imposed on the Union 1676 Uniou Trustee Company qf [ASSEMBLY.] .A.ustralia, cj-c., Bilt.

Company, in regard to the matter under con­ these companies were doin[ incalculable good, sideration, which was not imposed on the and as that was his experience of them he would Queensland Company. support the Bill. Mr. POvVERS said the clause in the Queens­ Mr. POWERS said the question han been land Company's Bill was amended so as to read discussed in the other Corn pany's Bill, and had "managar, acting manager, or secretary for the been amended on the motion of the Chief Secre­ time being," and if that would meet the objection tary, so that it came before them as amended of hon. members he was prepared to adopt it. by the Attorney-General and approved by the Those officers would then have to prove that they Solicitor-General in the other House. If the had not received a disclosure, but at pre,ent, if a clanse was not passed the probable result would man was prosecuted under the Insolvency Act, be that the managers of those companieE would it was necessary to prove that no notice had been be appointed the actual trustees, and then the given to the company, and that had been found result would be the same, as the manager would to be impossible in a case where a director was then only have to go into the box and swear he absent from the colony. had not received the notice. That was all the Mr. JONES said he was astounded to hPar clause asked for, so that nothing would be gained the hon. member suggest that that was good law, by refusing to accept it. as. an excuse for trying to pass that clause to Mr. JONES said the clause would not shift the burden of proof from one side to the apply only to insolvents; it might apply to other. If the manager went into the box and everybody els& with whom the companr had swore he never got any notice, it might take dealings. An unfortunate case has been mted to twenty witnesses to shift the burden of proof. prove that an insolvent got off because it WBrisbane and Ips·wich, has recently been through our workshops curtailing the question was whether that did not give the operations in various directions. Actually carriages Crown a short cut by which an innocent person undergoing repairs and in a partially finished condition mig-ht be punished. have been ordered to the Ipswich workshops at once Mr. POWERS said if the company was to be completed. Of all the many mysteries of official­ appointed trustee all the mana.ger of the com­ dom this is one of the most inexplicable." pany would have to do would be to go into the Other paragraphs of a similar nature have box, and swear that he did not receive notice. appeared in the Press, and when the Chamber of It was making it fit in with the criminal law Commprce, which is composed of leading business undpr the Insolvency Act. He hoped that, after men in the town, referred to the matter, my the discussion they had had, the hon. member colleague and myself thought it was time that would be content to take the voice of the Com­ we made ·inquiries with a view to ascertain mittee on the question. whether there was any truth in the reports. The Mr. JONES said he had no desire to delay the 11Iarybo?·ough Ch1·onicle of Friday, 7th October, other private business on the paper; but he felt contains an address delivered by the presii!ent of very strongly on the question, and, to test the the Chamber of Commerce, Mr. William \Valker feeling of the Committee, he would move that manager of the Commercial Bank at Maryborough. after the word "prove," in the 1st line of the An abler address has not appsared in the Press clause, the words "in any criminal proceeding" of this colony, and I would ask hon. members be inserted. who have not done so to peruse it. It ~.:ives a Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, full statement of the finances of Queensland and passed. of the other colonies of Australia, and Queens land comes out very well indeed. The report of Clauses 9 to 13, inclusive, passed as printed. his address states that- Clause 14 was amended by the insertion of " It had been the practice of the Railway Department the words "not exceeding two pounds ten shil­ to allow this community to have the right of supplying lings " between the words " commission " and the needs of the district railways but this was brought "for every one hundred pounds." to a close by' the Railway Commissioners; and although Preamble passed as printed. the Chamber made a strong effort, and obtained certain concess:ions, the stores were now practically supplied The House resumed ; the CHAIRMAN reported from Brisbane. He had hoped that would be the end of the Bill with amendments. taking away from Maryborough, but was now afraid that it was not. Thev had heard rumours of tha The amendments were read a first and second removal of pieces of 'inachinery from the rail way time, and agreed to; and the third reading of workshops, and now they had a statement in the paper, the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to­ which he believed was trne, to the effect that certain morrow. jobA actually in progress at the local works had been RAILWAY WORKSHOPS AT MARY­ ordered to Ipswich to be finished. He quoted the para­ graph from the c· ronicle. He also r011d information BOROUGH. which he had received from a reliable quarter confirm~ Mr. ANNEAR, in moving- ing the statement in the newspaper. He admired the That there be laid upon the table of the House the system of the management of the public railways whole of the reports of mr. R. T. Darker and :llr. by commissioners above political influence; but if they Mansfield to the locomotive superintendent on the were going to ndopt a system of centralisation it working of the raihvay shops at 1Ia.ryborough from the was not fair. This town, as the centre of an im­ POl'tant railway district, had a claim to have a fair 15th of August, 1892, to date- amount of work done at the local shops. They were now said: Mr. Speaker,-It is the duty of every hon. in po::,session of these works, which was nine points of member to do his duty by attending to the wants the law, and they should be re?J,dy with nine argument~ of his constituents, although I recognise that it in favour of their claim that could not be refuted. The is al•o his duty to look after the general interests system of railway commissioners would succeed if wisely carriert out, and the people were prepared to give of the colony; and I should be failing in my it a fair trial in this colony; but they could not put up duty if I did not move for the production of with an injustice done to the town. He contrasted the these papers. I have always been treated most kindly feeling towards the Commissioners in this colony courteously by the Secretary for Rail ways, and with the hostile attitude of the public against them in he has always done his best to remove any other colonies." injustice I have complained of, so that I That is very fair comment, indeed. The atten­ am at a loss to know why he called "not tion of my collPague and myself was called to formal" to this motion. The report' of the the matter by scores of persons outside the Rail­ various departmehts are laid on the table of the way Department. I make that statement, be­ House annually; and, as the two gentlemen cause I wish it to be distinctly understood that named in my motion are the servants of the no man employed in the railway ;vorkshops has public, their work becomes public property. written one word to me on the subject or re­ There should be no star chamber work in con­ quested me to bring it beforf• the House. The nection with any Government department, and demand is made by the electorate, as a whole. more particularly in connection with the Railway The remarks of Mr. ·walker with regard to Department, in which the public are so deeply centralisation are very true indeed, for there is interested. I shall have to read some correa­ no doubt that during the last two years central­ pondence, in which reference is made to Ipswich; isation has been going on at a very rapid pace in and I assure the hon. members for Ipswich that no Brisbane. I believe I am correct in stating that disrespect is intended towards that town. Several the whole of the stores for the railways of paragraphs appeared in the local papers previous the colony are suppliei! by Brisbane firms, to the one I am going to read, and I brought and that the conditions of tendering were everyone of them under the notice of the Secre- such that merchants in Rockhampton, Mackay, 1678 Railway Workshops [ASSEMBLY.] at Maryborough

Townsville, and other places were almost rowed money from financial institutions and prohibited from tendering. With Mr. \Valker, erected homes in the town ; and as the mechanics I say that the Railway Commissioners are there are as good as those elsewhere, and on their trial, and I wish to give them a the shops have been erected there at the fair trial and every opportunity of effecting the cost of the country, the people there are en­ large saving which it is said they are effecting titled to have the work of repairing the in the management of the railways. I fail to rolling-stock used on the lines in that district see that they have accomplished any such saving, done in the shops at l\'Iaryborough. The work but hope to be able to see it before their seven can be done cheaply there, for we have cheap years expire. \Vhen one man writes to another timber of the best quality, and good coal at a and asks a civil and direct question, he is en­ reasonable rate. I say an injustice is being done titled to a direct answer, and surely nothing less to the men employed in the shops at Mary­ should be expected from the Railway Commis­ borough, many of whom ser;•ed their time with sioners of the colony. Well, my coileague and John ·walker and Co. and N. Tooth and Oo., I wrote to the Commissioners. Whether we got and they are better mechanics than one of the a direct answer to our question hon. members men who has sent in these reports. I have can judge. We only wrote one letter, because known Mr. Darker for five·and-twenty years, after receiving a reply we considered that the and I can say nothing against him. He is only course open to us was to bring the matter a thorough tradesman, and has secured the before the House. The following is the letter confidence of everyone with whom he has we wrote:- come into contact. I must say, I feel a "Brisbane, 6th October, 1892, little bit riled when two representatives of an "The Railway Commissioners, Brisbane. important town like Maryborough receive an " Gentlemen,-A paragraph appears in the Mary­ evasive letter such as that I have read. I may bm·ough Chroniore of yesterday, which states that Mr. be prejudging the reason the Secretary for Darker, during his late visit to the Maryborough rail­ way shops, countermanded the repairs of a railway Railways has had in calling this motion "not carriage whieh were then in progress, and ordered the formal ;" but I would point out, with respect to carriage to be sent to the Ipswich shops. one of the gentlemen sent to Maryborough, that "It also states that it is your intention to reduce the we do not know what position he occupies in the amount of work done there by sending repairs to Government service. Ipswich. "Will you kindly inform us as to the truth or other­ Mr. GANNON: Oh ! yes, you do. You were wise of these reports. told it last night. "Yours respectfully, Mr. ANNEAR : I do not think a member of "JOHN T. ANNEAR. this H~use knows what that gentleman's status HR. l\L HYNE.'' in the service is. This carriage spoken of . was This is the reply received­ stripped and was being repaired, and the work " Office of the Railway Commissioners, was stopped. I believe the explanation given is "Brisbane, 12th October, 1892. that the work was being done without authority "Messrs. J. T. Annear, Esq., and, R. M. Hyne, Esq., from the head of the department. I thoroughly M1LL.A., Brisbane. agree that the work should not be gone ·on with "Gentlemen,-I am desired to acknowledge the re­ without proper authority, but though that hap­ ceir>t of your letter of the 6th instant, with reference pened five weeks ago the carriage is in the same to a paragraph which appeared in the .lliarl!borough Chronicle of the 5th instant, touching the alleged reduc­ position to-day, and no attempt has been made tion in the expenditure in the Maryborough workshops, to get authority to proceed with the repairing of and to inform you that the Commissioners have no it. I suppose Mr. Darker carried out his in­ intention of closing the shops, structions; but when he went to Maryborough "The paragraph has no doubt originated in certain and put l\'Ir. Mansfield in charge there were two opinions expressed by the locomotive superintendent, locomotives in the shops which required to have during his recent visit to the shops, to the effect that old cylinders removed and new ones put in the work of rebuildi11g carriages should not be under­ taken without special authority, and it is qujte possible their place. That work was going on, but was that certain men who have not been profitably em­ stopped, and an order has since been sent up ployed by the department in the past may be parted to have those old cylinders shipped to the Ipswich with; but you have already had an assurance on the shops, where they are now undergoing repairs, subject, and t.he Comnissioners do not feel inclined to I suppose. \V e can, in Maryborougb, make any give a guarantee that a certain quantity of work or a such repairs, or any new piece of machinery that special number of men are to be retained in the Mary­ borongh shops to meet the views expressed in the Press may be required for the railway service of this or elsewhere. colony; and what need, therefore, is there to send " I am, gentlemen, these cylinders nearly 300 miles to have them "Your obedient servant, repaired at Ipswich? I trust the Secretary "ALmmT PRF.WETT, for Railways will recognise the importance "Secretary." of this question to my constituents, and I ask That may be a diplomatic reply, but it is whether the president of the chamber of com­ not the kind of reply from public servants merce would have made the statement I have that will suit the people of this colony. \Ve read had this kind of thing not been going on ? asked a direct question and were entitled to a If there are men in the Maryborough shops or direct answer. I have no desire to remove any in any other shops who are not competent work from the Ipswich shops to which they are to perform the work for which they have naturally entitled. been engaged, let them go somewhere else; but I believe the men in the Maryborough The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Why shops are thoroughly competent. The gentle­ " naturally "? man who has been promoted to Ipswich, Mr. ANNEAR: Because Ipswich is the Mr. Ruddle, was in Maryborough for years, proper place to have repairs done for the rolling­ and I knew him in Ipswich before he went stock on the Southern and Western Railway, as to Maryborough. He is a good tradesman, they have plenty of room there, all the necessary and has been a good officer in the railway appliances, and cheap coal. We have in the service; but when a gentleman whose trade or Wide Bay distriet about 349 miles of railway calling in the department is unknown was open to traffic, and the rolling-stock required installed at Maryborough for three or four days there is properly sent to the Maryborough yards everything was turned topsy-turvey, and the for repair. Most of the men employed in the work there was brought to a standstill. I trust shops there, being industrious men, have bor- .the Secretary for Railways and the Commissioners Railway Workshops [27 OcTOBER.] at Marybo'l'ougk. 1679 will see that justice is done, and the matter plaint about the carriage amounts to this: 'When which I have complained of this afternoon is the inspectors went to Maryborough they found rectified. an old system, which had been countermanded by The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS the C0mrnissioners two years ago, 'till in force. (Hon. T. 0. Unmack) said: Mr. Speaker,-The Some time ago carriages were rebuilt without hon. member has been at some pains to work off any authority, so that they had no control of the his excited feelings. expenditure; and they gave peremptory instruc­ Mr. ANNEAR: There was no excitement. tions that in future no work should be under­ I said I wa8 not going to be excited. taken without a full report from the head of that particular department, and that the plans The SECRETARY FOR l{AILWAYS: and specifications Bhould be approved of by the That is immaterial. I shall be only a few Cornrniesioners before the work was taken in moments in answering the hon. gentleman, hand. When the inspectors came to Mary­ because there is very little to answer. The borough they found a carriage taken to pieces whole thing is really a "mare's nest." There is and in course of being re built. It was being nothing whatever in it. rebuilt with timber which was prohibited in Mr. ALAND: Why not give the papers? work of that kind, and no specification had The SECRETARY :B'OR RAILWAYS: been made out or approved. Hence the work That is a different thing. I will give the rAason was stopped. The carriage now stands in Mary­ why I was corn pelled to call "not formal " to the borough, waiting authority to go on with the motion. The reports the hon. gentleman asks work. So far from the Commissioners desiring for have been recently sent in by two responsible to do away with the shops, I find there are officers sent to Maryborough, in order to give a alterations which cost from £1,000 to £1,200 for report on the working of the rail way workshops the enlargement of the shops now going on. there. The reports contain a great deal of That does not look much like taking work away information which, it is considered, will be from the Maryborough shops. of great service, but they cannot possibly Mr. MACE ARLANE : And the Ipswich he made public at the present time. ' The shops are empty. exigencies of the service require that these The SECRETARY EOR RAILWAYS: If things should he fully considered by those con­ it is necessary to have certain work done in cerned, and if we were to make such papers the Mary borough shops it shall be done there ; public we would never be able to get reports "-t all. there is no desire to give preference to any Mr. ALAND : You would not be able to send one place. Surely the Commissioners should spies out. have discretion as to where they will have the work done. The Maryborough shops have now The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: We some forty-seven hands in them. It is likely, of would not be able to get proper reports on the course, that some may be changed or removed. working of any branch of the department. I cannot guarantee the employment of the Mr. NELSON : Has any action been taken? same men ; but it is also likely that a larger number of men will be employed there. The SECRETARY EORRAILWAYS: No Where, then, is the grievance? I do not see it. action has yet been taken on them. They are The hon. gentleman has also said they were under consideration, and it is utterly impossible being injured by certain machinery being re­ to publish the reports, for departmental reasons. moved from Maryborough elsewhere, thereby The matters dealt with must be thoroughly matured before the reports can be published. implying that the shops were to be dismantled. The hon. gentleman complains of the ambiguity All these things have to be looked at from a of the letter received by him ; but I may say proper point of view. The piece of machinery that it is a matter of courtesy among gentlemen he complains about is a lathe. that when a verbal assurance is given it is Mr. ANN EAR: Locomotive cylinders. accepted. A verbal as"urance was given to the The SECHETARY :B'OR RAILWAYS: hon. member, not only by the Commissioners, Mention was made, at all events, of the re­ but by myself, that the complaint about the moval of a lathe. These ·complaints immediately removal of the workshops was entirely groundless. find their way into the Maryborough newspapers; hut the complaints can be easily disposed of. Mr. HYNE: l3ut it is still going on. This lathe was removed, and there was an imme­ The SECRETARY EOR RAILWAYS: I diate outcry that the shops were being dis­ object to the hon. gentleman giving me a flat mantled. \Vhat was the reason? A lathe is a contradiction. I tell him it is not going on. No very expensive implement. We cannot have work is being taken away from the workshops, lathes everywhere. This lathe was only required and there is no intention of doing so. The hon. on an average about three months during the year member, Mr. Annear, was assured verbally that in the Mary borough shops; the rest of the time it so far from there being any desire to take work stood idle, One was required either at Norman­ away it was the intentiun of the Commi!'sioners ton or Cooktown, and instead of buying another to enlarge the shops and do a much larger one, when we had a lathe at Ipswich in case of amount of work there than formerly. I gave emergency, the Commissioners sent this one to the hon. member that assurance myself. What Normanton. Where is the great harm in that? I is the object in writing to the chamber of think it is a very fair, reasonable, and economical commerce and saying, " If you are not satisfied arrangement, and one that ought to be comrnended with this you had better take further steps?" I instead of being found fault with. The hon. say again, officially, that there is no intention member also referred to the allegation that the whatever to take any work away from Mary­ Maryborough storekeepers had not had an borough, unless it is absolutely neceosary on opportunity of supplying the stores for the rail­ account of superior machinery being available way service in the district. All I can say is that elsewhere. The Commissioners cannot possibly if they did not avail themselves of the oppor­ bind themselves to do all work at the Mary­ tunity, it was their own fault. After the tenders borough shops. It is possible that work may be for stores had been originally advertised last taken from Ipswich to Maryhorough, or from year, at the request of the hon. member himself, Maryborough to Ipswich, to be done. There is the form of tender was altered to suit the Mary­ a certain class of heavy machinery in Ipswich borough storekeepers, and it was not the fault which it might be more advantageous to employ of the Commissioners that the lowest tender did th:.n the machinery in Maryborough. The corn- not originate from Maryborough. If the trading 1680 Worlcskops at 11:1aryborougk. [ASSEMBLY.] Harbour Dues Bill. community there were not in a position to tender to compete with the Brisbane firms, and all stores for those goods at the same price that they could consumed in that district are now being supplied be laid down at Maryborough from elsewhere, it by Brisbane firms. Why should not the Mary­ was only natural that they should not get the borough men have a chance of obtaining a fair contract. As I want to give the hon. member share of whatever spoil there may happen to be? for Maryborough, Mr. Hyne, an opportunity to They have always served the department faith· speak on the question, I will not prolong my fully. I hope my hon. colleague will not with­ remarks further than to repeat that there is no draw his motion. It has leaked out that this intention whatever to injure the Maryborough gentleman referred to, in his report to the Com­ workshops, but the contrary. With regard to missioners, has recommended the dismissal of the reports, which are of a confidential character, twelve men from the Maryborough workshops. and which are still under consideration, I hope An HONOURABLE MEMBER : Hear, hear ! the hon. member will withdraw his motion and not press for them. Mr. HYNE : I say, scorn and contempt on Mr. HYNE said: Mr. Speaker,-I am very such proceedings. That report ought to be pleased to have another most emphatic assurance brought to the light of day. There ought to be from the Secretary for Railways that the work­ · nothing in it that should be concealed. The shops at Maryborough are not to be injured. time allotted for private business is nearly at an But I can assure the hon. gentleman that since end, and I will conclude by repeating that I am a certain gentleman, whose name I will not very pleased to receive the positive assurance of again mention, visited those workshops as an the hon. gentleman that there is no intention to inspector there has been a feeling of unrest injure the Maryborough workshops, but rather and uneasiness among the men. I assert that to extend them. I hope such will be the case. work is now being taken away from the Mr. ANNEAR, in reply, said: Mr. Speaker, shops. Only last Saturday night my attention -I am satisfied with the conciliatory and amiable was drawn to the cylinders of two engines reply of the Secretary for Railways ; and, with packed on trucks ready to go to Ipswich to be the consent of the House, I beg to withdraw the rebored. From what I have seen and heard motio·n. I am certain that neither the Commissioners nor Motion, by leave, withdrawn. the Minister are aware of what work is being sent to Ipswich. We have a lathe standing at MESSAGE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE Maryborough quite capable of doing the work, COUNCIL. and men as capable of doing the work as any in Queensland. If the Commissioners will only add RocKHAMPTON ScHooL oF ARTS BILL. the cost of carrying those two cylinders from Mary­ The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a borongh to Ipswich and back again to the cost of message from the Legislative Council, r!lturning reboring them, they will find it to be at least three this Bill with an amendment, in whrch they times what it would have cost to get the work invited the concurrence of the Legislative As­ done at Maryborough. Why should work of that sembly. kind be taken from Maryborough, where, I am On the motion of Mr. BARLOW, the message sorry to say, there are many first-class mechanics was ordered to be taken into consideration to­ walking about the streets idle? The Com­ morrow. missioners g-ave my hon. colleague and myself the most positive assurance that no work would QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE. be taken away from Maryborough, yet in spite RESIGNATION OF THE CHIEF JUSTICE. of that assurance we see these reports in the papers, and we are told that we have been Mr. NELSON said : Mr. Speaker,-Before hoodwinked by the Commi~sioners and the we proceed with any further business I wish to Secretary for Railways. I thoroughly uphold ask the Chief Secretary a qnestion with regard my colleague in tabling this motion, because in to the resignation of the Chief Justice of Queens· spite of their assurance to the contrary, work is land. I assume that the correspondence is now being removed from Maryborough. complete, and on that assumption I ask the Chief Secretary if there .is any objection on the part of The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: the Government to lay that correspondence on There may be special reasons for that particular kind of work being removed. the table of the House? The CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. Sir S. W. Mr. HYNE : This particular work could Griffith) said: Mr. Speaker,-The hon. member be done just as well at Maryborough as at told me that he would ask this question, and I Ipswich. \Vhy should it be sent away when we have no objection to laying the correspondence have first-class workshops, first-class tools, and first-class workmen ? Indeed, we defy on the table. competition ; and assert that our qualifications HARBOUR DUES BILL. in the way of effecting repairs to rolling-stock are unequalled. \Vith regard to hhe matter On the motion of the CHIEF SECRETARY, of stores, that is a very sore point at Mary­ it was resolved in Committee of the Whole that borough. The storekeepers had always had it was desirable to introduce a Bill to make tem­ a right to tender for the stores used in the porary provision for the management and im­ district; but the first form of tender issued last provement of harbours. year actually prohibited them from tendering The House resumed; and the CHAIRMAN because all goods had to be landed in Brisbane. reported that the Committee had come to a After great representations had been made resolution. to the Minister and others, a concession was granted, and the Maryborough storekeepers were The resolution was read a first and second time, allowed to tender for certain stores to be landed and agreed to. at Maryborough. What was the result? To FIRST READING. my surprise · there was not a single tender The CHIEF SECRETARY presented the sent in by any Maryborough storekeeper; and Bill, and moved that it be read a first time. when I asked the reason why I was informed Question put and passed. that the schedules were so drawn up that it was impossible for them to tender. It was On the motion of the CHIEF SECRETARY, simply impossible-I was told by a man who the second reading was made an Order of the knows his business-for the Maryborough firms Day for Tuesday next. Federal Council Referring Bill [27 OcTOBER.] (Queensland), No. 2. 1681

SUPPLY. can legislate as soon as other colonies repre­ sented in the Council have referred the matter to REPORT ]'ROM CO}!MITTEE. them:- Mr. MORGAN, as Chairman of Committees, "The discipline and government of the garrisons that luwc been heretofore established or that may be here­ presented a report from the Committee of Supply utter established and maintai.ned at ThnTsclav Island covering the resolutions passed in connectio~ and King Georg..:: 's Sonncl, or any other place wiihin the with the Ebtimates-in-Chief-Department of Australian colonies, at the joint expense of tho.:;e colo­ Railways. nks, or any of them." Resolutions read a first time. '\'hat covers the garrison at Albany already estah­ hshed; I am not sure that the men are there, bnt On the motion of the CHIEJ!' SECRETARY, the works are finished. The work at Thursday the resolutions were read a second time, and Island is progressing, and recruiting is now going severally agreed to. on to establish the garrison there, and the one at Port Darwin will be undertaken. The Bill is FEDERAL COUNCIL REFERRING BILL framed to cover them all. I have sent copies of ·(QUEENSLAND), No. 2. this Bill to the other colonies represented in the Council, and I have no doubt they will pass SECOND .READING. similar Bills, so that I hope, confidently, the The CHIEF SECRETARY said : Mr. matter will be dealt with by the session of the Sp~aker,-The Federal Council Act gi.-es legis­ :Federal 0ouncil to be held in Hobart in lative authority to the Federal Council with January next. I move that the Dill he read respect to certain matters which may be referred a second time. to them by two or more colonies, among which is Mr. JONES said: l\1r. Speaker,- I noticed a that of general defences. Hon. members are aware paragraph in the paper the other day saying that from discussions that have taken place already tbe defen("eS at Thursday Island were utterly that arrangements have been made between the u~ele.,s according to the opinion of smne rnilitary different Australian colonies for the estnblish­ exvert, and I would like to have some explana­ ment of defences at King George's Sound and tion. If Queensland is to be put to the expense Thursday "Island, and the maintenance of gar­ of these fortifications it is neces>ary they should risons at those places, at the joint expense of be of some use. the Australian colonies. Thi" is strictly a federal The CHIRF SECRETARY : Who said this? matter, because if there are to be any general Mr. PHILP : Sir Henry Clarke. defences, these certainly come under that head. So far as Queensland is concerned, the garrison The CHIEJ!' SECRETARY: It is very un­ at Thursday Island will be subject to the likely. laws of Queensland, it being in Queensland. Mr. JONl~S: I should like some explanation. With regard to King George's Sound, the Somebody should be responsible and guarantee arrangement made by the colonies two or that all the money we have contributed towards three years ago was that the colony of South these defences is not thrown away. If I remember Australia should find the garri~on for that port, rightly, the report said the fortifications were and that they should continue to be mem­ all well enough in front, but behind they could bers of the s~uth Australian force, although he attacked and taken. serving in Western Australia. Considerable The HoN. J. R. DIOKSON said: Mr. difficulty has arisen in giving effect to that Speaker,-I think this Bill will meet with ~rrangement, because if they go away from geneml approval, because I have great faith in South Australia they cc:cse to be amenable the Feleral Council being kept alive by matters to the laws of South Australia. Members continuously referred to it, and believe that it of the South Australian force cannot be sub­ will eventually prove to he the best instrument ject to the laws of that colony while out towardo promoting complete federation. \Ve are of the colony; and the law··> of South Aus­ li ¥ing in a day of small things, and I really tralia do not contain any provision to enable believe the Federal Council 'howing it" ability that to be done. If they become amenable to dettl with matters of this sort will attract and to the laws of \V estern ·Australia they are favourably direct public attention better towards cut off from the force of South Amtralia, complete federation than more heroic measures. and what would happen when they wanted to go I was under the impres,ion that the Imperial back I do not know. The idea was that each Government contributed towards the cost of the garrison should be maintained from a larger fortifications at Thursday Island and King force with a regular succession of men. A George's Sound. measure was brought before the legiR!ature of "\V estern Australia last session to deal with the The CHIEJ!' SECRETARY: They do. They subject. I had the honour of being consulted, contribute the armament. and I suggested a certain course, but that was The HoN. J. R. DIOKSON : I think not agreed to. But I think everyone will it would be very gratifying if the Chief agree that this matter should be left to the Secretary could inform us that the colony of Federal Council. I think there can be no New South \Vales intended to j

The CHIEF SECRETARY: That is provided Mr. BARLO\V : There is any amount of coal for. at the Mersey, and a railway to it. The military The HoN. J. R. DIOKSON: With regard expert to whom I am referring says that if ever to the strategic importance of Port Darwin, it a,n enemy effects a lodgment on the island of seems to me not to occupy the same position as Tasmania he would be able to harass the whole Thursday hland and King George's Sound. of the Pacific on one side, and the Indian Ocean Queensland might as well insist upon the forti­ on the other. I have seen it stat0.d that the fication of the Norman River being paid for permanent force of that colony ha• been reduced to some fifteen officers and men all told. at the joint expen~e. However, I do not think it wise to raise any question that would Question-That the Bill be now read a second discourage South Australia, which has always time-put and passed. shown an earnest desire to be attached to the The comrnitt>~l of the Bill was made an Order :Federal Council. I only hope the Council will of the Day for Tuesday next. prove its usefulness in this matter, and that it will be the chief factor in educating people up SUPPLY. to that true perception of what federation really means. RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE. Mr.PLUNKETTsaid: Mr.Speaker,-Iwould On this Order of the Day being read, like to know who represents Queensland in the The CHIEF SECRETARY said: Mr. J<'ederal Council, and also what amount Queens­ Speaker,-! move that you do now leave the land will have to pay towards the cost of these .chair. fortifications. It was generally understood when the Auxiliary Squadron came out here that it Question put and passed. would do away with the necessity for any further COliEIIITTEE. expense in making fortifications, and I would POST AND TEJ"EGRAPH OFlfiCES. like to know the cost of these fortifications before gidng my assent to such a proposal. Question stated-That .£118,944 be granted The CHIEF SECRETARY, in reply, said: for the post and telegraph offices. Mr. Speaker,-The hon. member who spoke last The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said that !as will find on page 102 of the Estimates a state­ night, in a very thin House and at a late hour, ment of the expenditure at Thursday Island. he called attention to the question of the cable The total is .£23,000, to which the contribution rates charged on messages between Great Brit:.in of Queensland amounts to about £2,500. That and Queensland, as compared with those charged amount has been nearly all spent already. The to the other colonies. l'\ o doubt the Postmaster­ contribution of Queensland to the" defence of General would be able to show that in entering King George's Sound comes to about .£1,000. into the arrangement with the other colonies 'l'he hon. member for Rockhampton l'\orth Queensland would be saddled with an additional referred to an opinion which he saw quoted in"a burden. At the same time he (Hon. J. R. newspaper about the nature of the defences Dickson) thought the importance and position of of Thursclay Islancl. As to that, all I can the colony would be more fairly put before men say is that the works were recommended of business and finance at home, and Queens­ by a commiLtee of the commandants of the land would be relieved of the disability she ap­ Australian colonies, assisted by a naval peared to be labouring under at the present time. expert. I have never seen any adverse com­ He had not brought the matter forward with the ments upon them, and certainly they could not view of expressing disapproval in the action very well be taken in the rear. I have every of the Government, who no doubt had had t,J confidence in the efficiency of those defences. study economy ; but where the character of the Their object is not to prevent ships coming colony was to some extent at stake by being through Prince of \Vales Channel, but to prevent placed in an inferior position, a moderate Thursday Island, which is a naval coal depot, increase in the expense would be justifiable. from being taken by a hostile force. The hon. He did not know whether the Government had member for Bulimba referred to Port Darwin, received any advice from the Hon. vV. H. and pointed out that it does not apparently \Vilson in regard to the deputation on the occupy so important a strategical position as subject, but from the Press cable it was King George's Sound or Thursday Island. That clear that that hon. gentleman had approved very likely is so. But the defence of the cable is of the views then expressed. The sooner an important, and it is a fact that the contribution alteration was made the better, so that they of South Australia to the other defences will might have cable communication at the same amount to a very great deal more than the rates as the sister colonies. Anyone seeing the total required for the defence of Port Darwin. discrepancies in the rates to Queensland and to The hon. member for Albert also asked who the other colonies in Reuter's office in London were the present representatives of Queensland would almost imagine that Queensland did not in the :B'ederal Council. There is a vacancy at form a part of Australia. If the Postmaster­ present in the representation. The late Mr. General could not give them an assurance that Macrossan and myoelf were the members, and immedi,tte action would be taken, he trusted the the vacancy caused by Mr. Macrossan's death hon. gentleman would promise that it should has not been filled up. receive consideration before the next meeting of Mr. BARLOW said: Mr. Speaker,-As the Parliament. l<'ederal Council is going to meet in Hobart, any The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Hon. T. 0. information about the position of that place may Unmack) said that the question had been before be very important. I saw a report the other day the various Governments of Queensland since that a distinguished military officer had pointed 1876, and they had in variably declined to out the great value of Hobart as a Rtrategical join in any guarantee or subsidy which would point. I~ has always been my conviction, as an have the effect of conferring a monopoly unprofessiOnal person, that if ever a powerful on the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, enemy got hold of H<,bart, thev could make a and of discouraging the formation of a second second Sebastapool of it. In the waters of the cable company. In 1876 the Government had Derwent all the fleets of Europe could be col­ declined to join in any system which was not I< cted. independent of the control of the Eastern ]_:xt.en­ The CHIEF SECRETARY: What would sion and China Telegraph Company, and similar they do for coal? decisions had been come to in 1877, in 1878 at Supply. [27 OcTOBER.] Supply. 1683

the Melbourne Postal Conference, and in 1870, of her r">ble coming into the pool. The Hon. J. 1885, 1886, 1888, 1890, 1891, and in 1892. He Kidd, Postmaster-General of New South vVales, looked upon the question from two aspects-the referring at the conference to that fact, s~tid- one he had referred to and the financial aspect. " There was no dontf that the offer of Xew Zealand The subsidy had been agreed to between the was a very rPasonable one; but the position was forced different colonies and the company in 1879 when upon the Government of Ke\Y South ,,~ales that the the latter offered to lay a duplir,te cab!~; but amount of the guarantee wa.~ rather a s,-.rious item. the so-called duplicate cable was laid down Thr~: did nrJt anticipate that they would have hnd any~ alongside the old line, and even then the old thi.ng like the £15,\JOO to llUY until after the Y\"'lVictoria. In duplicate cable. The subsidy amounted to looking through the busine;;:.s done, it was in evidence £32,400 per annum, and had been promised how much South Australia l1ad availed itself of the cable service since the guarantt•,J \Vas entered into. for a period of twenty years ; and at the The figure> for Victoria \vere not twice as much as those Colonial Conference held in London in 1887, of South Anstralin n,nd the flgurh for :New South \Vales Sir John Pender, the chairman of the com­ were only ab01n one-third more, so that South Australia pany, stated that the life of a cable was had got very much the better of Tictoria and New estimated at twenty years. The first cable Sont.h \Yalcs by the larger use they wore able to make having been laid in 1872, its life was practically of the ser,!ic"; therefore, the population batis was not extinct, and the second cable, having been put the correct one to go on after all, because New South "\Vale~ had to contribute nearlv four time.s as much as down in 1878, had only about six years of exist­ South j._nstralia to the guarmitee. ':Phe same remarks ence left. At present no one knew whether the applied to the subsidy; but his principal contention old cable was in working order or not, and \va::; that the Xew South Wales Governmrnt were those matters had all to be consir!ered. The auxiouR to relic\·e tllcmselvr" of the guarantee alto­ contributiom to the subsidy were on the gether." population basis, and the share of QueenH­ J'.Ir. Kidd ultimately proposed a compromise Jand would have amounted to about £;),000 per rai::;ing the rates by smnewhere abnnt Dd. a word, annum. They had been standing out for the contending that the loos would then not be so principle that it would not Le good policy to dis­ serious provided the b1miness was maintained. courage the laying of another cable; anci, as hem. That proposal was carried, and the company members were aware from the papers th>tt h:>d agreed to it. He (the Postmaster-General) been laid on the table, the Government had understood th:1t the new tariff was to come into made an agreement wit~ a company to construct operation from the ht December next, but nego­ a cable to New Caledoma, which would f.mn the tiations were not quite complete yet. It was very first section in a cable to Vancouver. ·when the strange that the residents of Great Britain­ first portion was finished it w"ould be taken to who had more than l1 half, nearly two-thirds, Samoa, and then further on. The Government of the whole traffic on the cable, and refused to would really have been defeating their object if contrihute anything to the snbsidy-should hold they had joined in the subsidy just when they meetings, wait upon the late Postmaster-General were on the eve of obtaining what thev had been -who had attended one of the conferences and striving to get for the last eighteen-or twenty expressed a strong opinion against joining in the years. They therefore thought that it would be guarantee-and complain that Queensland did an unwise policy to join in the oubsidy. As not join in the subsidy. He would now show regarded the ~uarantee, that question was settled what wduld have been the result if the Govern­ at the conference which he had the honour to ment of the colony had agreed to join in the attend in Sydney in 1891. It was then proposed subsidy in 1891. The cable bu.,inesd of Queens­ to reduce the rate which existed at the present land at that time amounted in round numbers to time. South Australia stronglv advoca'~ed the about £14,700. The rate was then 9s. 3d.; at guarantee at that time, becau;,e they harl C'·m­ the new rate of 4s. or 4s. 3d. that income of structed an overland line across the continent, £14,700 would h:1ve been reduced to £6,000. which was worked at considerable loss, and the Scarcely 300 people used the cable-indeed guarantee asked for was to include a guara.ntee that wa>i a liberal e,timate-so that the Go­ not only to the company but also to South Aus­ vernment would have had to pay about £14,000 tralia, to Tasmania for her short cable, and as subsidy and guarantee for the benefit of a to ·western Australia for her ca.hle. It had small section of the community numbering less turned out that the burden had chiefly fallen on than 300, who would pocket the reduction of New South Wales and Victoria. The subsidy £8,000. Looking at the whole history of the asked for was an annual guarantee, to be termin­ matter, and the persistent refusal of his pre­ able by a two months' notice at the end of the decessors to join in the subsidy, the Government year, on the basis of the takings of the C:iJrnpany, felt that their action would be endorsed. He saw which at that time amounted to :1bout £237,73G. no reason why, after advocating the principle for The members of the conference anticipated a so many yt'<,rs, they should suddenly. abandon cerbtin int:rease in the takings, some estimating that principle, more especially at a tmJC when it at 25 per cent., others 50, 60, and 70 per cent.; they were nqotiating for tbe first section of what but that revenue harl not, as a matter of fact, they believed would be a cable to Vancou,-er. been m~intained. The revenue received by the In l891, .1t the conference, some tempting offers company for the year ending the 30th April, were held out to Queensland; they w'"re offered, if 1892, wa< £182,696, which left a deficit they joined, only to he asked to pay towards t~e of £~5,040 to be made up, half by the gu~trante". They did not accept the offer for this company and half by the colonies. The colo­ reason : The guarante~ was that the rate would nie8 had, therefore, to pay £27,520, Queens­ be 4s. a word, and the Treasury would pay 2s. a land's share of which would be somewhere word more, the company thus getting Gs. a about £.5,000 or £6,000. Then in addition to word ; awl therefore by joining in the guarantee that, South Australia recr,i ved a guarantee of they w mid a<";ist in maintaining a monopoly. £37,551 ; the revenue received by that colony It seemed that the memb,-rs of the late 11el­ Wits £27,137, and the subsidy paid to them wa.s bourne conference had changed their minds, £10,415; so that South Australia ha

Government, but if that colony now wished to Mr. JONES said the hon. gentleman was participate in the service it would have to join in probably not aware that it would be impossible both subsidy and guarantee. He had shown that to get up to those rooms without going through the life of one cable was nearly exhausted, and the telegraph office and the post office. the other had only six years to run; and if they Mr. GANNON asked if. anything was going joined now he did not think it would be a good to be done to the Albion post office, which was bargain. \V as it wise to forego their decision for in a terrible state? A sum of money had been the purpose of joining in a subsidy for the object placed on the Estimates some years before for of ben~fiting a comparatively few people when the purpose. those who used the cable to the largest extent The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said that stood aloof ? It might appear humiliating for a considerable sum had been spent in repairs Queensland to stand out, but he did not think there during last year, and the revenue was they should be called upon to forego the delibe­ not in a condition to build a new post office at rate conclusions of successive Governments, which present. wouldatthis stage bear the constructiol' that they only now joined because it cost much less to do so Mr. JONES asked what was to be done with than it did some time back. He might say that the tower in the Rockhampton post office? the cable business was, since last annual state­ The SECRETARY FOR WORKS (Hon. ment, receding, and possibly with the increased H. Tozer) said that he had called for tenders for rate would still further fall off ; but, reckoning clocks two or three times, but they were not that the business would be the same as last able to make clocks of the class required in the YE'ar, their share of the guarantee would be about colony, and he had had to send home specifi­ £1,500 in addition to £6,000 subsidy. He cations. The dials in the Bundaberg clock, scarcely thought the Treasury was prepared to which had been put in, had not proved suitable, suffer that loss. Per"Gympie, and he was he felt they should maintain their position, waiting in order to see how the new dials of the especially as they had within their grasp the Bundaberg clock stood before he ordered one for nucleus of a cable they had been looking for for Rockhampton. The dials in the Bundaberg clock years. would not at first stand the heat of the gas which Mr. JONES asked what was the total amount illuminated them. Before ordering a clock for received in Queensland for cablegrams? He did Rockhampton, however, he would require a not think it was very much, because if business guarantee that they would keep it in good work­ people wished to cable home they sent their mes­ ing order. sages to their agents in Melbourne or Sydney. The POSTMASTER-GENERAD: I have The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said the got that now. amount was £8,000. Queensland had never at Mr. JONES said that as they used the electric any time received more out of the business than light in Rockhampton the Secretary for Works the charges on the land line. need not be afraid of the dials not standing the The HoN. J. R. DIOKSON said he had heat of the gas. He was sure that the municipal listened with great interest to the Postmaster­ council would not object to giving the required General. He had always had a feeling of guarantee. suspwwn of the company as being very . well Mr. SAYERS said that he would ask that the able to look after its own interests. There same consideration should be shown to Charters was no doubt the financial position placed Towers as was being shown to Gympie, Bunda­ before the Committee by the Postmaster-General berg, and Rockhampton. The municipal council was a very strong one. The question of a line and the chamber of commerce had requested him via Vancouver would be a matter of hope to ask the Postmaster-General to put up a clock deferred for a considerable time-it would be in the Charters Towers post office. some years before it could be perfected ; and in :Mr. BARLOW asked if double post-cards the meantime if the Government could see their were issued? way to act in concert with the other cclonies in The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said that the matter of cable rates he should be inclined to double post-cards were issued. With regard to give them his support. The question was one the request of the hon. member for Charters well worthy of consideration, and he trusted Towers, there was no tower for a clock in the that the debate would have some effect in the new post office in that town. The designs had nearfuture, ifnot immediately. been approved of by the mayor of Charters Mr. JOKES said the magnificent post and Towers and by the member for the district, who telegraph office at Rockhampton had at length had been delighted with them; and he (the Post­ been occupied by the departments, although not m<>ster-General) had had considerable difficulty until after a large additional sum had been in getting the Treasurer to grant the money expended to make it useful for the purpose for required. The estimate had been exceeded by which it was built. A greater bungle was never several thousands of pounds, and in order to made in any public building in the colony. As far build a clock-tower the whole building would as he could learn, the architect forgot to make any have to be reconstructed. provision for staircases to get up to the second Mr. BARLOW said that he would advise the storey. In that second storey there were two Government to study the design for the dials of large rooms at present unoccupied, and 'he the clock in the Melbourne Post Office. They wanted to know what was intended to he done had no useless figures upon the face, but where the with them. In the old post and telegraph office figures usually were, there were prom in en t bosses; there was a residence for the manager of each the main part of the face being open instead of department, but those gentlemen had been given being covered with ornamentation which pre­ an allowance to rent private houses. vented anyone seeing the time at a little The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said he was distance. afraid the ban. member was not very well Mr. GANNON asked the Postmaster-General informed on the subject he was speaking of. if the unclassified officers in his department­ Both the telegraph manager and the post office such as letter-carriers, sorters, and stampers­ manager were Jiving in the building. The two who had been in the department before the rooms on the second storey were intended for the Post and Telegraphs Act had been passed, were Lands Department, or soine other branch of the eligible for the higher positions in the Civil public service, Service without undergoing examination? Supply. [27 OCTOBER.] Supply. 1685

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said they The COLONIAL SECRETARY: The house were only eligible if they passed the Civil is now let at a good rent. Service examination. Mr. JONES said the Government should not Mr. PAUL said that he wished to refer to the enter into competition with private individuals question of the late fee on letters. He quite who had paid for their land and built houses for approved of the system in connection with rail­ letting purposes. way station% and iu large towns ; but in the The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said the interior it was a hardship. A mailman might be charge for telephones at Rockhampton was due at 6 o'clock in the evening, leaving at (i the the usual charge, and was a reasonable one, next morning, and as letters had to be posted by because there wasconsiderableexpense in working 8 o'clock, that left very little time to answer a the telephones. In Brisbane the charge was less. letter unless the extra postage was paid. 'Where The question was what did it cost to manage a that rule was not known letters were often telephone station in Brisbane and out of Bris­ delayed a week. He agreed that the rule should bane? In Brisbane, with 421 subscribers, it apply in large centres of population where the cost no more than at Rockhampton, with only public took ad vantage of late mails, but it twenty-five subscribers. The hon. gentleman should not be applicable to the interior of the would see the difference. colony. He trusted that the hon. gentleman would Mr. JONES said how could a ser'lant of the reconsider the matter and relax the regulations so Telegraph and Post Office and Hail way Depart­ far as country post offices were concerned. ment perform the duties of all those depart­ Mr. ANNEAR said he wished to call atten­ ments? As for the telephone, the high cost of tion to a matter in connection with the attendants it had caused many people to discontinue its use. at _the switchboard in the telephone exchange, The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said the Bnsbane. He understood that the attendants post and telegraph work was performed by the were now appointed from the post and tele­ railway authorities at Emu Park, and the work graph meRsengers, and was . told that there was well done. were some men there who had been eight or nine years in the service, and were Mr. GANNON said he would like to know only receiving £65 per annum, less 4 per more about the unclassified officers. In the cent. deducted for the superannuation fund. He event of any applications having been made by believed that, as a rule, employees in the Post sorters and letter-carriers for promotion to a and Telegraph Department were paid for work higher branch before the Civil Service Act came performed on Sundays ; but that such was not into force, would they be compelled to pass an the case with regard to switchboard attendants, examination? three of whom had to work on Sundays ten, six, The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said he and eight hours respectively. He was not aware could not answer supposititious cases. He should that there was any prospect of promotion for imagine that whether the man applied before or those men, and would like to have some informa­ not, the moment the Act came into force it must tion on the point. A salary of £65 a year was be carried out. not sufficient to maintain a man, and as a rule Mr. HALL said he suggested last night that thrifty men got married, whereby they incurred newspapers should be receivable in pillar-boxes greater re,ponsibilities. as they were in all other civilised parts of the The POSTMASTER-GENERAL sttid the world, but his remarks appeared to be received attendants at the telephone switchboard had with contempt. He hoped the hon. gentleman been under his special care. When he first took would take some steps in the matter. He thought office he found young men at the switchboard there was considerable cheeseparing going on in who ought not to be there, because lads were the department. In the Bundaberg office a lad quite competent to do the work. He also found had been employed for six year,; as messenger that telegraph me~sengers had no chance of pro­ at £1 a week, and now received an appointment motion, and he made the arrangement that when as unpaid learner. He thought he should receive a vacancy occurred at the switchboard those a salary of some kind after such length of messenger lad.~ should be appointed, and that if service. He also wished to ask the Postmaster­ they qualified themselves to pass the examina­ General if the political opinions of the servants tion for operators, they should be promoted to the in the Post Office were interfered with. A position of operators as vacancies occurred. The servant of the department had been discharged a maximum rate of pay for switchboard attendants few months ago, and a great many people in was fixed, he thought, at £70 or £80 per annum, Bundaberg were of opinion that it was because which included Sunday work of eight-hour shifts ; of his political opinions. He referred to the and if the lads did not choose to qualify them­ manager of the televhone exchange, Mr. Irvirie selves for operators as they grew up, they must Perel. find employment elsewhere, for they could not An HoNOURABLE ME>!BER: He ought to be in expect any increase of pay at the switchboard. gaol. Mr. JONES said the charge for telephones in Mr. HALL said a great many people ought to llockhampton was very high-£10 per mile per be in gaol who were not, but he maintained that annum-and that deterred many people from no man should be discharged on account of his having telephones in their establishments. He political opinions. He did not say that the hoped the hon. gentleman would see his way to officer referred to was discharged for that reason, reduce the charge. Another matter he would but other people thought so, and it looked very call attention to wa~ the fact that there was a nice much like it. telegmph station not far from Emu Park rail way Mr. CAMP BELL : He says so himself, and station, and also a house for a stationmaster's he uses VE:ry strong language that no man should residence. be allowed to use. The COLONIAL SECRETARY: You are Mr. HALL said if the hon. member for behind the age ; that matter was all arranged Aubigny knew so much against the man he could last week. pursue the ordinary legal course, and bring him Mr. JONES said he was very glad to hear it, to book. It did not matter what the man had because he could not see how one unfortunate said in public or in private ; what he maintained man could do the work of railway stationmaster, was that nobody ought to be discharged from the telegraph operator, and postmaster. He was public service on account of his political opinions. glad to find that the Government had seen the He wanted to know the reason why that indi­ error of their ways and remedied the matter. vidual had been discharged from the service. 1686 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

The POSTMASTER-GI~NERAL said the to the fact that the regulations were not adhered reason was a very plain and simple one ; the to. IV eek after week the mails were late, and man's services were no longer required. He did were frequently not delivered until the day after not know the man, n.or what his political that on which they were due. They were opinions were ; but the office had been abolighed, paying £14,300 for the coastal mail contract, and and nobody had been appointed to his place. were entitled to a better service. :Frequently The work in the telephone department wa,; satis­ the steamers were delayed twenty-four and factorily performed, and the G•JVernment had thirty hcurs at l\Iackay in taking in cargo, effected a saving of £200 a year. ~With reg>trd through the tender having to wait for the next to the lad who had been appointed an unpaid tide. The mails were not considered at all, and le:trner, the hon. member was apparently not business people complained. He had received a aware that the only way for a messenger to rise to lett-'Cr only yesterday on the subject, and a a higher position in the service was to resign his meeting was to be held to direct the hon. gentle­ position as a me_,senger and becom<~ an unpaid man's attention to the matter again. Sometimes learner. As vacancies occurred he would in there were large sums of money sent by the mail time become a paid leuner, and finally an in payment of calls, and the delay might lead to operator. ~With regard to the question of the forfeiture of shares. He hoped the hon. allowing newspapers to be posted in pilhr letter­ gentleman would try to keep the contractors boxes, it had been found to he impracticable. If better up to the mark. He was not asking any­ such a thing were entered into the boxes would thing that w:1s unfair, but the present arrange­ have to be enlarged, and carts would have to ment was too bad, and people were beginning to be used for the purpose of carrying away their clamour about it. contents. The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said that Mr. BARLOW said it had not been found what the hon. gentleman said was perfectly trne. impracticable in Melbourne. He had SP~n the The one trouble he had in the department was the newspapers emptied out of the box at the corner complaint" he received with regard to the times of Collins and Queen street, put into a sack, and for the "'rrival and departure of the coastal mail; carried away by a post office official un foot. but he was powerless. The conditions in the Mr. HALL said that with reg-ard to the contract stipulated for a fine only for the mails me.,senger at Bundaberg, he was not complaining being behind time on arrival at the termini, and the contractors arranged their busin~ss with about the promotion, but was pointing out the that in view. Hundreds of letters had passed hardship it was to young fellows to ml1intain between him and them; but they had a! ways some themselves without any salary. ~With regard plausible excuse. He Wl1S not satisfied with the to newspaper pillar- boxes, they were very way the service was carried on ; and in the common in England, and were l1bout the same fresh tenders, which were to be in by 1st January size as the letter-boxes in use in Queensland. next, a penalty was provided for lateness at every He saw no reason why the thing should not be port. That should meet the difficulty. The done. contractors pleaded either that they had missed Mr. LITTLE said that if the hon. member the tide, the weather was bad, or they had been for Bundaberg had only done what he did when delayed by cargo ; but the service was not a a similar grievance was iaid before him, and n•ade cargo service. The country was paying for the himself acquainted with the regulations of the carriage of mails ; and they ought to leave cargo department, he would never have occupied the if it was not ready, and carry the mails. He time of the Committee with the ml1tter of the hoped the next contract would be carried out unpaid learner. That was the onlv chance a more satisfactorily ; and in the meantime he messenger had of getting promotion in the asked the sympathy of the public, because it was department. a source of great trouble to him, which he would Mr. BARLOW said there would be consider­ gladly remove. able dl1nger in mixing up letter,, and newspapers Mr. SAYERS said that he knew the hon. in one box, because letters were apt to get caught gentleman was in a fix; but if he made inquiries in the folds of the newsp>tpers, and carried away he would find that for some time the mails had from their destinl1tion. On one or two occnsions been late at Brisbane, which was a terminal port. he had received newspapers from England with The mails due on Thursday· in Brisbane were letters in them addressed to perwns in the old often not delivered until :Friday morning. country. In large centres of population one or :Mr. LISSNER 'aid that the grievance was a two newspaper pillar-boxes would be very con­ most important one, as there was a very large venient. population concerned. He believed there was The POST~:UASTER-GENERAL said that only one steamer a week now. he did not find fault with suggestions being made, so long as he was not expected to tl1ke The POST:iYIASTER-GENERAL: The con­ immediate action. The matter would be fully tract is only for one mail a week, and they carry considered, and it was possible in these days of it twice, mechanic::cl invention that some applia.nce might Mr. LISSNER said now they only carried it be perfected which would enable the armnge­ once. He thought it would be much more satis­ ments to be improvBd and further facilities given. factory to let the next contract between the two It was common for the boys on going round to companies, and make them both responsible as to find the boxes stuffed up with papers, and the time. He Wl1S in hopes that they would have letters sometimes remained there a week before had another Government in the North next they were seen. He could claim credit for having year; but after what had happened that evening effected several improvements in the department, in another place he could not expect it, anrl he and he would not lose sight of the matter. must therefore endeavour to have the grievance remedied by the present Government. He Question put and passed. hoped the hon. gentleman would take that mo5t CONVEYAKCE OF l\IAILS. important matter i~nto his serious consideration, The POSTMASTER-GENE~RAL moved that and ~ee if something could not be done to meet £147,000 be granted for the conveyance of mails. the wants of the people of theNorth. Mr. SAYERB said he hoped the hon. member The POSTMASTER-GE:NERAL said he would take some steps to remedy the delay that could say no more than he had done already. existed in regard to the Northern mail. At He thought the hon. member would give him present it took twelve days to write to Chl1rters credit for doing all he could to make the mail Towers and get an answer. The delay was due service as perfect as possible. No effort had been Supply. [27 OcTonEn.J Supply. 1687

wanting, and no effort would be wanting in future delivery of the letters. They all knew that the to get a more perfect service. He had, with tenders would be the same as usual, because the the assistance of the heads of the depart­ companies worked together and there was no ment, very carefully revised the conditions competition. of the present contract, eliminat,ing some pro­ The POSTMASTER-GENERAL: There will visions and adding more stringent ones in other be competition from elsewhere. directions ; and he hoped that when they got Mr. CALLAN said he was very glad to hear fr~sh. tend~rs a good many, if not all, of the it. ex1stmg gnevances would be removed. Mr. GANNON asked if the £40,000 paid last The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said he observed year to thP. Railwav Department for conveyance that the appropriation for the mail service vi& of mails was expended? Torres Straits was put down at £22,000 in place The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said yes, of £33,750 voted last year. That reduction was, it was a contract. The money used to be paid he presumed, on account of the alteration of the quarterly. He should prefer it paid monthly, to service from a fortnightly to a monthly service. equalise the rail way revenue. \Vould the hon. gentleman inform the Com­ mittee whether the Government retaintd the Mr. GANNON asked was the £40,000 shown power to revert to a fortnightly service when the on the railway receipts? c?lony had recovered from the existing depres­ The POSTMASTER-GENERAL: Certainly. SIOn and circumstances justified an increased Mr. BARLOW said what his colleague had expenditure? Would he also state how long the stated was very forcible. If a storekeeper sent later contract had to run? out a lot of accounts rendered he wanted to The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said the see the money ; he did not want the letters present contract would expire in 1895. The again. If the envelope bore a printed instruc­ Government had full power, after due notice, to tion that it was not to be returned, could not revert to the fortnightly service whenever they the Post Office accept that intimation? chose tu do so. The POSTMASTER-GE:"'ERAL said he Mr. L UYA said he would like to point out should be anxious to have the question settled in that delay occurred not only in the arrival and that way, but he had consulted the Law Officers departure of steamers conveying mails, but also of the Crown, who said there was no provision to in the delivery of mails after arrival. \Vhen he allow of that being done. He wished to direct was going up to Townsville recently the steamer the attention of the hon. member for T,JOmbul arrived at 10 o'clock on a Friday night, but the to the front page of the Estimates, where there mail did not get to town till Nionday night. was a footnote to the railway revenue which Mr. MAC}'.ARLANE said he wished to call said, "This amount includes £40,000 paid for attention to a matter which concerned the busi­ the conveyance of mails." ness portion of his constituents. Letters sent Mr. BARLO\V said he presumed when the out by business houses were sometimes returned, accounts rendered to which he referred were and the sender had to pay ld. or 2d. on each returned the sender could refuse to receive them 7 letter, as the case might be, the postal officials The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said any having failed to find the versons to whom they person could refuse to take a letter, but there were addressed. He believed that was a recent was a clause under which he could be compelled arrangement. to pay the postage and be subject to a fine of The POSTMASTER-GENERAL : It is under 40s. as well. the new Act. Mr. CALLAN said there was an item of Mr. MACF ARLAXE said many houses sent £2,800 as gratuities to masters of vessels for out a number of bills once a month, and instead convf'ying mails. What did that mean? of getting the bills paid they had, as he had The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said gratui­ stated, to pay 1d. or 2d. each fur the return of ties were given to masters of vessAls not under the letters. Sometimes the persons were found, contract to carry mails when they carried them. but. at other times they were not found.· Then, Question put and passed. agam, when there was deficient po;;tage on a letter, say of 1d., the receiver of that letter had MISCELLANEOVS SERVICES {SVllDIVISIONS), to pay2d., and no credit was given for the penny The POSTMASTER-GENERAL moved that stamp attached to it. He did not think the £59,000 be granted for miscellaneous services. department should make a profit out of an error There was a small increase in the first item, of judgment ou the part of the sender of the because extra receiving offices had to be opened letter. and a small increase in travelling expenses The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said of caused by removals, which were frequent. course it was always unpleasant to have to pay Mr. LISS::'ifER called attention to the state of fines; but it was utterly impossible for the de­ the Committee. partment to tell whether a man had put a penny Quorum formed. stamp on a letter which should pay 2d. by accident Question put and passed. or by design. There must be certain rules in order to carry on the business of the department METEOROI.OGICAL BR.\NCH. Ratisfactorily, and if the public would not make The POSTMASTER-GENERAL moved that themselves acquainted with the neceesities of £1,280 be granted for the Meteorological Depart- their business they must take the consequences. !nent. · As regarded the charge upon returned letters, Mr. PAUL said ban. members might recollect that was provided for by the Postal Act. If that in the early part of the session he put a people could not be found that was a fair and question to the Postmaster-General to ascertain reasonable charge, but it was out of his power whether it was the intention of the Government to alter it. to send Mr. \Vragge to the great exhibition at Mr. CALLAN said he had always received Chicago next year, where all the meteorologists the greatest attention from the Postma,ster­ of the world were to assemble in conference. General in regard to the wants of his consti­ The Postmaster-General seemed to think that tuency. He wanted to ask the hon. gentleman he had put the question at the instiga­ to bear in mind when dealing with the new mail tion of Mr. \Vragge. He wished to state contracts that the delay occurred not on the that Mr. \Vragge never approached him on the boats but between the time of arrival and subject. He was aware, however, that Mr. 1688 Message from the Council. [ASSEMBLY.] Swanbanlc Oolleries, <;f-a., Bill.

Wragge had been invited to attend the con­ On the motion of the CHIEF SECRETARY, ference, which would be the most important of the message was ordered to be taken into con­ its kind the world had ever seen. Only lately sideration on Tuesday next. the Postmaster-General had requested Mr. \Vragge to make sear,onal reports, as being much SEAT DECLAHED V A CANT. more useful than the preoent system of daily The CHU~F SECRETARY said': Mr. forecasts. The Government ought to do every­ Speaker,-! beg to move- thing they could to assist an eminent scientist 'rhat the seat of John Baptist Louis Isambert has like Mr. \Vragge to carry out the gret~t work become and is now vacant, by reason of the resignation in which he was engaged ; and it was the thereof by the said John Baptist.Loui~ hambert since belief of Mr. W ragge that the conference of his election and return to serve 111 th1s House as mem­ meteorologists to be held at Chicago next year ber for the electoral district of Rosewood. would result in a wonderful advance of that Question put and passed. science. Mr. \Vragge was of opinion that if ADJOURNMENT. stations were established in mid -ocean-at places like Tristan cl' Acunha and St. Paul's-connected The CHIEF SECRETARY said: ~~r. by cable with the nearest mainland, it would be Speaker,-I beg to m~ve that this House, at 1ts possibl" to make very much longer forecasts than rising, do adjourn unt1l Tuesday next. • were at present possible. If such were the case Question put an'd passed. the benefits would be incalculable. All over The CHIE11' SECltETARY said: Mr. Australia, and especially in Queensland, there Speaker,-! move that this House do n?W were immense tracts of country suitable for adjourn. \V e propose on Tuesday, after ~ealmg depasturing sheep, but which were liable with smaller matters and the second readmg of to sudden floods. If those floods could be the Bill which was introduced· to-day, and the foretold in advance, what an enormous loss consideration of the Federal Council Referring could be prevented and a corresponding amount Bill in committee, to go on with Supply. of wealth saved to the country. He earnestly Question put and passed. implored every member of the Committee to back him up in his efforts to get Mr. \Vmgge The House adjourned at a quarter to 10 o'clock. sent to the meteorological conference to be held at Chicago next year. At the recent conference at Munich Mr. \Vragge had been recognised as one of the first meteorologists of the day, and the cost to the country of sending him to Chicago would not amount to more than .£250. Mr. Wragge had brought his present work to such a pitch of per­ fection that his assistants could carry it on ; but his desire was to do still better work, and that could be best accomplished by sending him to the great gathering of meteorologists at Chicago. By doing that, not only would Mr. \Vragge do good service to Australia but to the world at large. Question put and passed. AUDITOR-GENERAL. The CHIEF SECRETARY moved that .£7,520 be granted for salaries and contingencies for the Auditor-General's Department. There was no change in the vote. Question put and passed. The House resumed; and the CHAIRil!AN reported that the Committee had come to certain resolutions. On the motion of the CHIEF SECRETARY, the resolutions were ordered to be recei vecl on Tuesday next; and the Committee obtained leave to sit :cgain on Tuesday next. MESSAGE FROM 'rHE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. HARBOUR BOARDS BILL. The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a message from the Legislative Council relative to the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Harbour Boards Bill, intimating that the Legislative Council insisted upon their first amendment in clause 181, because they thought it undesirable that a person charged with fraud should not have an opportunity of defending him­ self before the ordinary legal tribunals; insisted on the omission of clauses 203 and 204, because they thought it more desirable that such pro­ visions should be dealt with in the special Acts ; insisted on their amendment• in clause 209, because they thought it desirable that an oppor­ tunity should be given to sign cheques as well after as at a meeting of the board ; and did not insist on their other amendments to which the Legislative Assembly had disagreed.