Wednesday Volume 545 23 May 2012 No. 9

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 23 May 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 1113 23 MAY 2012 1114

Mr Mitchell: I do not have any current plans to meet House of Commons the Foreign Minister from Israel, although I met a series of Israeli Foreign Ministers when I was there just Wednesday 23 May 2012 before Christmas. I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman’s comments are passed on to the Foreign Secretary. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I also visited the west bank and East Jerusalem last year and I saw the PRAYERS consequences of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Will the Secretary of State assure us that Church groups will [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] be urged to get the Government of Israel to follow the parable of the Good Samaritan? Oral Answers to Questions Mr Mitchell: I raised the issue of religious tolerance when I visited the west bank and Israel at the end of last year. The hon. Gentleman’s comments will have been heard by the Foreign Office, which I have no doubt will INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT pursue them.

The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): We need to focus on the real issue of aid, not on red herrings Occupied Palestinian Territories about its misuse by the Palestinians. The fact is that Israel has blockaded Gaza and the checkpoints in the 1. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): What assessment west bank are stifling any attempt by the British he has made of the effectiveness of aid provided to the Government to bring aid to the Palestinians. What is Occupied Palestinian Territories. [108772] the Secretary of State doing to make the Israelis co-operate in respect of the aid that Britain and the EU gives to the The Secretary of State for International Development Palestinians? (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Both the Minister of State, who is today attending the Friends of Yemen meeting in Mr Mitchell: Britain has an extremely well-targeted Riyadh, and I keep a close eye on the effectiveness of aid and development programme in the Occupied our programme in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Palestinian Territories. It focuses on building the capacity Guto Bebb: I thank the Minister for his response. On of the Palestinian Authority to provide good government a trip to Israel and the west bank earlier this year, I saw and support for the two-state solution. It focuses, too, education materials that incited violence and the use of on wealth creation and economic growth, which are Palestinian Authority broadcast media to glorify conflict, important. The third strand principally supports the not least relating to a group of children singing about United Nations Relief and Works Agency, and ensures the aim to saturate their land with blood. Will the that we fulfil our humanitarian responsibilities. The Secretary of State provide assurances that our aid donations programme is very well placed, and we make certain do not contribute towards such incitement? Will he that it achieves all three of those things effectively. highlight what steps the Government are taking to deter the Palestinian Authority from supporting such publications Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): The next and broadcasts? generation of Palestinian peacemakers and state builders are too frequently exposed to messages of hate and Mr Mitchell: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. violence rather than of peaceful co-existence. What I would be very interested to see the material he describes. measures are in place to ensure that aid is used to teach I can tell him that numerous credible studies show no mutual understanding and reconciliation? evidence of incitement or anti-Semitism in Palestinian Authority textbooks, so if he ensures that we get a copy Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend makes an important of what he has seen, we will take the appropriate action. point. A recent study was set up by the Americans to look at the content of textbooks and teaching both in Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Has Israel and in the west bank for precisely the reason that the International Development Secretary joined the he sets out. We take this issue very seriously. I will Foreign Secretary and, curiously, the Education Secretary ensure that my hon. Friend receives a copy of that in meeting Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman during report when it is published. his visit to the UK? Irrespective of whether he meets him, will the right hon. Gentleman transmit to the Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Control Israeli Foreign Minister the concerns of the United of international arms transfers is essential to the effectiveness Nations Assistant Secretary-General for Humanitarian of aid-related conflict resolution measures in the occupied Affairs and Deputy Emergency Relief Co-ordinator, territories and other places. The UK has a key role to who visited the west bank last week and said: play at the UN arms trade treaty negotiations next “I am extremely concerned about the humanitarian impact of month. Will the Secretary of State— demolitions and displacement on Palestinian families. Such actions cause great human suffering, run counter to international law and Mr Speaker: Order. I am trying to be generous, but I must be brought to a halt.”? think allowing latitude would be excessive in this case. I am afraid that the hon. Lady’s comments do not relate Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. sufficiently closely to the question on the Order Paper. 1115 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1116

Clean Water and Sanitation Mr O’Brien: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Like her, I fear that the worst is yet to come. The hunger 2. Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): What support season in July and August is imminent. The United his Department provides for clean water and sanitation Nations, with which we are working extremely closely in developing countries. [108773] and consistently, is revising its appeals from about £452 million to about £1 billion as a matter of urgency The Secretary of State for International Development in response to the growing need in the Sahel, and the (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The British Government consider final appeal for Mali is due to be released at the end of that access to clean water, sanitation and hygiene is this month. The Department has a special team in among the most basic of human needs. At the recent place, and we are monitoring the situation closely. That summit in Washington, I announced this Government’s includes assessing the appeals. My ministerial colleagues intention to double the commitment on water and and I are keeping an extremely close eye on the position. sanitation that we made last year. 14. [108786] Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): Given Chris Kelly: I welcome the Department’s commitment recent reports that the African Union has delayed the to doubling the provision of water and sanitation so pledging conference to deal with the crisis until June, that it reaches 60 million people, but will he assure me what assurances can the Minister give that the UK that sufficient priority is now being given to sanitation? Government are doing all that they can to establish a Too often in the past, priority has been given solely to date, and who will represent the UK at the conference? the provision of clean water. Mr O’Brien: I can give the hon. Gentleman an absolute Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is entirely right to draw assurance that we are sparing no effort whatever in attention to the importance of sanitation. That is why seeking to persuade all the various parties and stakeholders the International Development Committee called its who can provide assistance to meet the emerging report on these matters “Sanitation and Clean Water” humanitarian crisis. The amount that the UK people rather than referring to WASH—water, sanitation and have already provided through our humanitarian support hygiene. As he says, for every UK citizen we will provide has staved off some of the worst, but the trouble is that clean water or sanitation for someone in the poor world the crisis continues to escalate. who does not have it today. That is an important The question of attendance at the various meetings is priority for Members on both sides of the House, and being decided, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we Britain is honouring it. will ensure that we are well represented. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): The Secretary of State will be aware of the tremendous Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): work done by charities such as Excellent Development The deteriorating security situation in northern Mali which supply clean water to many regions in Kenya and around Timbuktu has caused the European Union to Uganda at a fraction of the normal cost. Will he ensure reduce severely the amount of aid that it feels able to that the Government do what they can to assist such give. Given that the UK donates a great deal of its aid tremendous and cost-effective work? through the European Union, will the Minister say what continuing aid we will be able to provide for the Mr Mitchell: We make it an absolute priority to people of Mali? ensure that British taxpayers’ money goes as far as it possibly can, and that we secure 100p of delivery on the Mr O’Brien: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Because ground for every pound that we spend. We continue to of the conflict, the situation in northern Mali is extremely ensure that we deliver clean water and sanitation at the grave, especially around Timbuktu. That is in addition lowest possible price. to intense pressures in areas across the Sahel such as Niger and northern Nigeria. However, I can assure my The Sahel hon. Friend that work is being done both through our bilateral humanitarian system and, in particular, through 3. Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What European support which has already contributed some recent assessment he has made of the humanitarian £106 million to help with the Sahel crisis. We will situation in the Sahel. [108774] continue to work very closely with those involved, not least because of the attribution of the contribution that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for we make. International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): The situation is extremely grave. Eighteen million people Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): In view of the across the Sahel are at risk of food shortages, and widespread recognition that there is an urgent food and 8 million of them are now in need of immediate assistance. security crisis in the Sahel, will the Minister tell me what The British people, through the UK Government, have criteria were used to determine that UK aid to the responded swiftly to the crisis, providing aid for over region should be halved between 2010 and 2012? 400,000 people who have been caught up in this disaster. Mr O’Brien: As I hope the hon. Gentleman is aware, Amber Rudd: The United Kingdom has been admirable there is a difference between the humanitarian response in its support for the region, but with 18 million people and programme issues. I think that he was referring to vulnerable to the impact of the crisis, which is due to Niger, where we supported a programme led by the peak in about six weeks’ time, and with further delays to French which served the purpose for which it was the donor conference, what can the UK Government do intended. As for the humanitarian process, we continue now to invest in the region and help those people? to work with a range of international partners in trying 1117 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1118 to ensure that the donor burden is spread fairly and Helen Goodman: The rate of female genital mutilation equitably, while also ensuring that we in the UK step up in Egypt is now 70%. Some in the country’s political to our responsibilities. parties want to change the constitution to end all legal restrictions on the practice. I am sure that if the proposal Official Development Assistance was to chop off part of men’s genitalia, the Minister would put this issue at the top of his agenda. Will he prioritise ending this barbaric human rights abuse? 4. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): Whether the Government Mr O’Brien: I absolutely agree that it is a wholly plans to spend 0.7% of gross national income on unacceptable and barbaric practice. It is a custom that official development assistance by 2013. [108775] has survived for millennia, and I assure the hon. Lady that I have taken up this issue on many occasions, and The Secretary of State for International Development that I seek to ensure it is highlighted. It is genuinely one (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Yes. of the issues that we have put at the top of our agenda, and I discuss it whenever I get the chance to do so in the Gregg McClymont: The Minister’s answer is welcome, many countries of Africa where it is prevalent. I assure but given the Government’s failure, in what is a rather her that we are committed to this very important project. thin legislative programme, to embed that 0.7% investment in law, can he give a guarantee that there will be the Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): The best same level of investment in those less fortunate than guarantee of making women’s health a priority, and ourselves in 2014 and 2015? ending the barbaric practices to which the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) alludes, is making Mr Mitchell: The Government have been very clear, sure women are actively involved, and listened to, in the as have all Members of the House, about our commitment political process. In what ways is the Department working to the poorest in the world and not to balance the books with women’s organisations and democracy-building on the backs of the least fortunate. We are the first organisations to support Egyptian women in making Government ever to set out clearly how we will meet sure their voices are heard? our 0.7% commitment. On the hon. Gentleman’s specific point about the law, the Bill in question has been Mr O’Brien: The hon. Lady makes a very important drafted, the Prime Minister and I have said that it will point. I hope she recognises that the Department has proceed, and it rests with the business managers to put girls and women front and centre of everything we decide the date for that. do. We want to ensure that girl’s and women’s voices are heard, particularly as we develop our various future programmes, not least post-2015. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Does the Secretary of State agree that in response to those who, Occupied Palestinian Territories rather facilely, argue that charity should begin at home and that we should not be spending this money, it 6. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What support the should be pointed out that not only do we have a moral Arab Partnership Participation Fund has provided to obligation to people around the world who are less projects on political reform and free and fair elections fortunate than ourselves, but we are spending the money in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. [108777] firmly in Britain’s best strategic interests? The Secretary of State for International Development Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend makes an excellent (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The Arab Partnership Participation point. For a spend of less than 1% of gross national Fund has supported political participation in the Occupied income, we are investing in our future prosperity and Palestinian Territories. It has funded a variety of civil our security, as well as doing the right thing by the least society projects. fortunate in the world. Karen Lumley: Democracy is something that we in Women’s Health (Egypt) this country take for granted. Will the Minister assure me that, as part of our future campaign, we will promote democracy and the rule of law in the occupied territories? 5. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): What programmes his Department has put in place to Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend puts her finger on a key improve women’s health in Egypt. [108776] ingredient of development. Promoting democracy and the rule of law in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for central to our engagement in the region, as I described International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): Iam in answer to an earlier question. mindful of the fact that the first round of presidential elections in Egypt is taking place as we speak. My Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the Secretary of Department is focused on economic and political transition State’s hope for free and fair elections to the Palestinian in Egypt through the Arab Partnership. We do not have Authority extend to Palestinians in East Jerusalem? a health programme there, but the Department is committed to improving women’s health across the world, with Mr Mitchell: The British Government’s position is particular focus on the poorest countries and the most clear and unequivocal on this, as the Foreign Secretary vulnerable women. Over the next five years, our support has assured the House on many occasions. Our commitment will help to save the lives of at least 50,000 women in to promoting the two-state solution and to promoting pregnancy and childbirth. democracy in this troubled area is absolute. 1119 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1120

Copenhagen Consensus Recommendations am confident that the voice of girls and women, who are often among the world’s poorest people, will be 7. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): heard. [Interruption.] What assessment he has made of the recommendations by the Copenhagen Consensus 2012 expert panel on Mr Speaker: There are a lot of noisy private conversations setting priorities for development aid. [108778] taking place. Let us have a bit of order for Mrs Sharon Hodgson. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): The Mrs Hodgson: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Copenhagen Consensus 2012 is a valuable contribution I thank the Minister for his response and welcome to the development debate, particularly given its focus the UK’s customary leadership on this issue. He mentioned on getting the best value for money and greatest impact the voice of the poorest, among whom the hardest to from aid. This is of course also a major priority for the hear are often women and girls. I am sure he agrees that coalition Government, and DFID’s programme priorities their voice is the most important one that needs to be are closely aligned with the recommendations from the heard in order to develop the framework following the Copenhagen Consensus. I find the analysis compelling, millennium development goals. What plans has he in and I have been working with the Consensus since 2004. place to ensure that their voice is heard, and what is his timeline for such a framework? Harriett Baldwin: The economists and Nobel laureates of the Copenhagen Consensus have found that spending Mr O’Brien: The hon. Lady will be aware that this is on tackling malnutrition provides the most value for work in progress and that a series of meetings and money in terms of economic development. How much consultations is being initiated. I can give her an absolute of the Department’s budget is spent on bundled assurance that we are building on the success of the micronutrient interventions? current MDG framework, but we also need to learn from its gaps and weaknesses. Part of doing so is Mr O’Brien: My hon. Friend makes an extremely making sure that, in addition to providing simple and important point, and she is right to say that the Copenhagen clear aims, we consult widely and ensure that we reflect Consensus puts bundled micronutrient interventions to the fact that the world has changed, rather than the fight hunger and improve education at the very top of past. That includes the importance of the views of girls its list of the most desirable activities to achieve maximum and women in the future. impact. Right across our programmes, we have been increasing the delivery of nutrient supplements and Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): As the Minister fighting hunger. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of knows, I have welcomed the Prime Minister’s appointment State announced in Washington last week that we will to co-chair the UN panel on the new millennium be supporting the new alliance for food security and development goals framework. However, unlike his nutrition in order to improve food supply and farming predecessors—Tony Blair and my right hon. Friend the across Africa and help to pull 50 million people out of Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—this chronic poverty over the next 10 years. Prime Minister has shown no inclination at the G8, G20 or EU summits to champion the importance of Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): How will these development. Will the Minister explain the core values excellent priorities help the people of Yemen, almost that will underpin the UK’s approach to a new global half of whom are starving? development framework, and can he bring himself to utter the words “social justice and human rights”? Mr O’Brien: In Yemen, many of the current challenges are humanitarian. Today, we have announced £26 million Mr O’Brien: In an area where normally there is a of humanitarian support and aid to ensure that some of degree of consensus across the House, I am deeply the needs of the population—nearly half of whom, as disappointed that the hon. Gentleman should choose to the right hon. Gentleman rightly observes, are starving—are suggest that there is any diminution in our effort. I met. While we are in the humanitarian phase, that is would argue that the opposite is the case; at the first G8 patently the most important response, but we also need meeting, there was a clear focus on development by the to look at the future of governance and resilience in Prime Minister, and only last week we had the whole order to improve the lot of the population. focus on food and nutrition. It does not serve the hon. Gentleman well to seek to make a political point out of Post-MDG Framework (Women and Girls) something that simply has no legs. 8. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland Topical Questions West) (Lab): What steps he has taken to ensure that women and girls are central to any consultation on a T1. [108787] Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): If he will post-millennium development goals framework. make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. [108779] The Secretary of State for International Development The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for (Mr Andrew Mitchell): My Department is very focused International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): We on delivering the results of the family planning summit are very pleased that my right hon. Friend the Prime that will take place in London on 11 July, chaired by our Minister has been asked by the United Nations Secretary- Prime Minister and Melinda Gates. We have been very General to co-chair the high-level panel on a framework focused on the food agenda at the G8 Development to replace the millennium development goals. That process Ministers meeting last week, and I will shortly be visiting will of course need to be open and consultative, and I Malawi. 1121 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1122

Ian Lucas: Two weeks ago, I visited a charitably T2. [108788] Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): funded Bedouin school in the west bank that was threatened The situation in Syria continues to take lives, as well as with demolition by the Israeli Government. This is not to produce instability in the region. Will the Secretary the way to make progress, so will the Secretary of State of State update the House on what action the British make urgent representations to the Israeli Government Government are taking to help with the humanitarian to prevent the demolition of places of learning? crisis in that country?

Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman rightly says that Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman will have heard almost all these demolitions are illegal, and that is a what the Foreign Secretary has been doing at the United point that the Foreign Secretary has made regularly in Nations. On humanitarian support, I can tell the hon. his meetings with the Israeli Government. Gentleman that we are supporting the United Nations, its Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs and a number of international non-governmental T6. [108792] Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on ensuring that the organisations on dealing with the consequences both taxpayer benefits from the sale of our remaining stake outside Syria—on the borders and in the surrounding in Actis. Is that not in sharp contrast with the shameful countries—and internally, within that country. way in which the previous Government allowed Actis T8. [108794] Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): In to be spun out of CDC in such a way that the British the context of the NATO summit and the planned taxpayer did not receive a single penny? withdrawal from Afghanistan, what assessment has the Secretary of State made of the provision for women’s Mr Mitchell: I am afraid that my hon. Friend is rights after our departure? entirely correct; the shameful way in which the previous Government sought to privatise Actis has meant that Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is entirely right to focus the taxpayer has received nothing at all from this on the role of women in Afghanistan. On my recent management company. Thanks to the changes that the visit to Afghanistan, I launched a new civil society fund coalition Government have made, it is estimated that that will directly address her point. Additionally, the the taxpayer will receive between $100 million and fact that the international community has helped to $200 million. secure places for 6 million children in school in Afghanistan in recent years will have a transformational effect on the Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): The role of women in Afghanistan. forthcoming Rio+20 conference is an important T3. [108789] Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): South opportunity for this Government to show international Sudan is slipping towards war. Recently leaked leadership on climate change, green jobs and sustainable documents from the World Bank have highlighted the development. Will the Secretary of State tell the House fact that the south could be completely bankrupt by how many meetings have taken place between his July as a result of the oil dispute. With countries such Department and other relevant Departments to ensure as China moving to fill the democratic gap, there a joined-up British approach to the Rio conference? should be concern that good democratic governance Will he write to me with more details? could slip off the agenda in South Sudan. What is his Department doing to ensure that that does not happen? Mr Mitchell: I can tell the hon. Lady that meetings are taking place every week and every day, most recently Mr Mitchell: Ministers in my Department have had yesterday. The delegation will be led by my right hon. robust meetings with the Government of South Sudan Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, and I have discussed and that of Sudan. The message we give is that it is this with him within the past 24 hours. important that oil should be brought back into commission and exported from Sudan and it is very important that Several hon. Members rose— the African Union road map should be adhered to by both sides. Mr Speaker: Order. Let us have a bit of order for Mr Bob Blackman. PRIME MINISTER

T7. [108793] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I The Prime Minister was asked— warmly welcome the dramatic increase in aid to our Commonwealth partners, including the funding for the Engagements Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Trust. Will my right hon. Friend inform the House of the type of projects Q1. [108757] Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) we are funding that are much-needed by our (Con): If he will list his official engagements for Commonwealth allies? Wednesday 23 May. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning Mr Mitchell: The whole House will be grateful to I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. Sir John Major for chairing the Queen Elizabeth Diamond In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have Jubilee Trust. The British Government have put in further such meetings later today. £50 million to the match fund for these projects. On the Commonwealth, I can tell my hon. Friend that under Karen Bradley: People in Staffordshire Moorlands the previous Government, support for it declined from recognise that the Government need to take difficult some 45% of our development budget to 35%, whereas decisions to deal with the deficit, but does the Prime under this Government, over five years, it will increase Minister shiver when he thinks about what would have to 55%. happened had he not put a credible fiscal plan in place? 1123 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1124

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good cut the deficit by 25%. Let me explain to him what the point. It is worth while listening to what the managing Government and the Business Secretary are doing. We director of the International Monetary Fund said yesterday. are cutting regulation by £3 billion, we are scrapping She said: 1,500 regulations, we are looking at introducing fees for “when I think back myself to May 2010, when the UK deficit was employment tribunals. We are taking all these steps, at 11% and I try to imagine what the situation would be like today which led last year to the greatest number of small if no such fiscal consolidation programme had been decided...I business start-ups in the country’s history. Of course, shiver.” the right hon. Gentleman cannot support any changes That is what she said and we should remember who is to employment regulation because he is in the pocket of responsible for leaving that situation, doubling the national the trade unions. debt and leaving a record debt and a catastrophic inheritance—one for which we still have not had an Edward Miliband: In case the Prime Minister has not apology. noticed, his Business Secretary does not support his proposal. What double standards. When it comes to Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Adrian ordinary—[Interruption.] Oh yes. When it comes to Beecroft, the Prime Minister’s adviser, says that the law ordinary workers, the Prime Minister wants to make it should be changed to allow employers to fire people at easier for employers to sack them. When it comes to will. The Business Secretary says that that is the last Andy Coulson and the Culture Secretary, it is all about thing the Government should do. Who does the Prime second chances. Can the Prime Minister tell us what Minister agree with? impression he thinks it gives about his Government that he commissions advice from a multi-millionaire who The Prime Minister: We need to make it easier for recommends making it easier to sack people on low pay, businesses to grow, for businesses to take people on and at the same time as giving people like him tens of for businesses to expand. The Beecroft report, which I thousands of pounds in a millionaires’ tax cut? commissioned, had a number of excellent ideas that we are taking forward. We are doubling the qualifying The Prime Minister: I will tell you what we do on the period for unfair dismissal, exempting businesses with Government Benches. We commission a report, we fewer than 10 people from new EU regulations and accept the bits that we agree with and we reject the bits exempting 1 million self-employed people from health that we do not agree with. What the right hon. Gentleman and safety. We are consulting on no-fault dismissal, but does is take instructions from his trade union paymasters only for micro-businesses. It was a good report and it is and he cannot accept any changes. He asks what we are right that we should take forward its best measures. doing for the poorest people in our country. It is this Government who are taking 2 million people out of Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister did not answer income tax, who have increased tax credits for the the question about the proposal—[Interruption.] No, poorest, who have got more people in work with 600,000 he did not answer the question. Mr Beecroft made a new private sector jobs, and who have frozen the council proposal that employers should be able to fire their tax. His record was completely the opposite. employees at will. The people sitting behind the Prime Minister think that the Beecroft proposal is a great report—that it is the bee’s knees—and they support the Edward Miliband: This is not about the trade unions. proposal. The people over there think it is a bonkers It is about millions of people up and down the country proposal and the Business Secretary has been going in fear for their jobs, and the only answer that this around saying that. We just want to know where the Prime Minister has is, “Make it easier to sack them.” Prime Minister stands. Who does he agree with? This proposal is a symbol of the Government’s failure on growth. We are in a double-dip recession, unemployment The Prime Minister: It is rather sad; the right hon. is high, businesses are going bust, there are bad retail Gentleman did not listen to my answer. We have a call sales figures today.Does not the Prime Minister understand for evidence on no-fault dismissal for micro-businesses how out of touch he sounds to families when he says, as and we are not proceeding with it for other businesses. he did last week, that things are moving in the right That is the position. I am not surprised at the question, direction? as I know he worries about being fired at will for being incompetent. The Prime Minister: I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman that this is about the trade unions. Let me Edward Miliband: I wonder how long it took him to tell him why. He is getting £900,000 from Unite, and think that one up. The Prime Minister says that he is that union is threatening a bus strike during the Olympics. consulting on the proposal. The author of the proposal, What have we heard from him? Silence. He is getting Mr Beecroft, said that £400,000 from the GMB. That union is holding a baggage “some people would be dismissed simply because their employer handlers strike over the diamond jubilee weekend. Absolute did not like them. While this is sad I believe it is a price worth silence from him. People need to know that there are paying”. two parties on the Government Benches acting in the That is what they used to say about unemployment. Is national interest, and an Opposition party acting in the he really telling us that with record numbers out of trade union interest. work, sacking people for no good reason is a price worth paying? Edward Miliband: Let us talk about donations. On 21 March the Chancellor cut the top rate of income tax. The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman might, Then the money comes flooding in from the Tory while he is on his feet, welcome the fact that unemployment millionaire donors. It tells us all we need to know about is falling, inflation is falling, and this Government have this Government. They stand up for the wrong people. 1125 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1126

The Prime Minister may have changed the image of the Prime Minister commit to the active participation of Tory party, but the reality has not changed: tax cuts for every relevant Government Department in our taskforce’s millionaires; making it easier to sack people—the nasty work? party is back. The Prime Minister: I certainly will do that, because The Prime Minister: It is this Government who cut there is vital work to be done to help young unemployed corporation tax, who set up the enterprise zones, who people. What we are finding with all the schemes we are reforming the planning law, who boosted the have, whether the Work programme or the youth contract, apprenticeships, who scrapped Labour’s jobs tax and is that the most useful thing is actually the work experience who cut taxes for 24 million working people, and it is scheme, because it gives young people a real leg-up and only Labour that thinks the answer is more borrowing, experience of the workplace and, therefore, removes more spending, more debt—exactly the problems that some of the disadvantages they face as against older got us into this mess in the first place. workers. We are finding that it has a much better record than other schemes, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman Hon. Members: More, more. will be able to push that and pioneer it in his constituency with the help of all the agencies, as he has said.

Mr Speaker: Order. We will have more, but it will be Engagements from Mr David Mowat.

Q3. [108759] Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): In 1993 the (Con): Did my right hon. Friend see the figures IRA bombed Warrington, killing two small boys and released last week showing that since May 2010 the injuring more than 50 other people. Last week a memorial number of people waiting for an operation on the plaque with a scrap value of about £40 was stolen. The national health service has fallen by over 50,000? Does Government have already legislated to prevent the sale that not demonstrate that our commitment to of scrap metal for cash. Will the Prime Minister consider increased health funding and our health reforms are further legislation making the theft of such memorials beginning to bear fruit? an aggravating factor? The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely for his question. We made an important and difficult important point. I know that the whole country was decision that, while other budgets were being cut, we shocked by the theft of that memorial; everyone remembers would protect the NHS budget. That was not supported the Warrington bomb and the people who died in it. He by the Labour party, but the fact is that we now have the is right to say that we have already legislated and made best ever performance for patients waiting over 18 weeks, this an offence. We are also doing everything we can to the numbers for those waiting more than 26 weeks and sort out the problems of the scrap metal trade. I will 52 weeks have also reached record lows, and average look at his suggestion of an aggravated offence, but waiting times for both in-patients and out-patients are clearly any court can hand out exemplary sentences in lower than they were in May 2010. The Labour party these sorts of circumstances because public justice is often asked whether the test should be the number of important, and the public are absolutely appalled by people waiting over 18 weeks. Well, if that was the test, what has happened. we have passed it with flying colours.

Youth Unemployment Q4. [108760] Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Just over a year ago the Prime Minister launched his flagship export enterprise finance guarantee [108758] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What Q2. scheme. We now learn that only five companies have assessment he has made of the level of youth benefited from the scheme. Hard-working businesses in unemployment. Birmingham that would like to export but cite lack of export finance guarantee as a problem are keen to The Prime Minister: There are two ways of measuring know who those five lucky companies are and why the youth unemployment: first, the International Labour scheme has been such a dismal failure. Organisation definition, which includes both full and part-time students and gives a figure of just over 1 The Prime Minister: I will certainly write to the hon. million; and secondly, the claimant count, which currently Lady, because the truth is that that export scheme has stands at 466,000. Clearly youth unemployment is too been rolled into the export guarantee scheme more high on either measure, although I note that it rose by generally and the amount of export support is massively 40% under the previous Government. Recently it fell by up on the last election, with billions of pounds in extra 17,000 in the last quarter. If we look at the claimant money being spent. The other point I would make is count and include people on out-of-work schemes, we that exports, compared with 2010, were up by over 12% see that the number of young unemployed people has last year. actually fallen since the election. Q5. [108761] Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) John Mann: The number of young people in my (Con): Will the Prime Minister join me in constituency who are unemployed, underemployed and congratulating the Northamptonshire Parent-Infant have fewer opportunities has greatly increased in the Partnership on its sell-out conference on early years past year. Therefore, today we are setting up a taskforce intervention last week, where 27 local authorities were specifically to deal with this increasing scourge. Will the represented? Does he agree that, if we are serious about 1127 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1128 strengthening our society, providing psychotherapeutic Minister to receive a delegation from the council and support for families struggling to bond with their new Birmingham’s MPs on a fair deal for Birmingham. Will babies is absolutely key? the Prime Minister make good on his pledge and agree to meet that delegation? The Prime Minister: I know that the hon. Lady speaks with a lot of personal experience, having set up a The Prime Minister: Of course, I am happy to meet project in Oxfordshire, the county I represent, that has leaders of Birmingham city council, as I meet leaders of had a major impact. I think that her work does her huge councils up and down the country. What is important is credit. The truth is that all the studies show that real focusing on what needs to be done in Birmingham to disadvantage for children kicks in right from the moment drive economic growth and to make sure that we provide they are born if they do not get the love, support and good services, but I very much hope that the new help they need. That is why the projects she is talking council will match the record of the old council in about, along with the expansion of the health visitors providing value for money. scheme—4,200 extra health visitors—which can make a real difference, are so important. I will also point out Q7. [108763] Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and the measure we took last week to make sure that new Cleveleys) (Con): Child neglect is a sad fact in all our parents get proper contact with and information from constituencies, and in Blackpool we await the their midwife both before and after their child is born so sentencing of two parents who pleaded guilty this week that we do everything to remove that disadvantage in to keeping their 10-year-old son in demeaning the early months and years. circumstances in a coal bunker. At the same time, the charity Action for Children has highlighted the fact Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Will the that the law on child neglect dates from 1933 and no Prime Minister give an undertaking that he will not longer corresponds to the demands of modern succumb to the diktat from the European Court of parenting. Does the Prime Minister not agree that it is Human Rights in relation to prisoners voting, that he time to ask the Law Commission to look at this law will stand up for the resolution that was agreed in this once again? House by an overwhelming majority and that he will stand up for the sovereignty of this House and the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise British people? that completely shocking case, and for anyone trying to understand how a parent could treat that child that way, The Prime Minister: The short answer to that is yes. I it is just completely unfathomable. I will obviously look have always believed that when someone is sent to at what he says about the Law Commission and prison they lose certain rights, and one of those rights is modernising the law, but in dealing with such appalling the right to vote. Crucially, I believe that it should be a cases of child neglect and with families that have completely matter for Parliament to decide, not a foreign court. broken down, we have so many agencies currently working Parliament has made its decision, and I completely on this, including, crucially, social workers, and the agree with it. most important thing is to have a real system of passing on information and passing on concerns rapidly—and Q6. [108762] Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Today, then acting on them. Just passing another law will not Alstom is opening in my constituency a new facility for make up for the common sense and action that we the engineering, manufacturing and export of power require our agencies to deliver. electronics, in which Stafford is a world leader. Following the news of the first trade surplus in motor vehicles for more than 30 years, what measures does my Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I thank right hon. Friend consider to be essential to continue the Prime Minister and the Chancellor for joining so and to increase investment in manufacturing? many of their colleagues yesterday in abstaining from the vote against my “Save Bianca” amendment. Given The Prime Minister: I very much remember visiting that 65% of the public want to see caps on the cost of GEC Alsthom when I contested my hon. Friend’s credit, when does the Prime Minister think his Ministers constituency rather unsuccessfully in 1997, but what is will finally give in and do something about ending legal absolutely essential for such manufacturing, engineering loan sharking in the UK? and technology-based businesses are the support that we are giving to apprenticeships, whereby we achieved The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady knows, we more than 450,000 apprenticeship starts last year; the have a new power for the Financial Conduct Authority, lower rate of corporation tax; and the links between our which has been established, and the Office of Fair universities and the new catapult centres in order to Trading has powers as well, so it is very important to ensure that technology goes into our businesses and talk to those agencies and to make sure that they can makes them world-beating. If we look not just at our act. exports overall, which were up 12% last year, but at exports to India, China and fast-growing markets, we Q8. [108764] Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): find that they are up 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%. The local council tax frozen for two years, the lowest inflation rate in three years and the biggest monthly Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): The fall in local unemployment in five years is great news Prime Minister pledged to give England’s great cities a for jobseekers, pensioners and savers in Tamworth. seat at the heart of government. Yesterday, Labour took Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although times control of Birmingham city council, and the first thing are tough and much still needs to be done, this that the new council did was agree to ask the Prime Government and this country are on the right track? 1129 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1130

The Prime Minister: Clearly, we face difficult economic Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Last weekend, the times. We will go on in a minute to talk about the Squatters Network of Brighton and Hove invited its growth plans that are required in Europe, but what we anarchist friends from around Europe to campaign have to do in this country is rebalance our economy, against what they call Weatherley’s law. Will the Prime which had become over-reliant on the public sector, Minister condemn, with me, the Green party’s support over-reliant on financial services and not fairly spread for squatters and welcome, as I do, the criminalisation around the country. We need a growth of the private of squatting? sector and of manufacturing and technology, and we need it to be more fairly spread across the country, The Prime Minister: I certainly support what my hon. including in the area that my hon. Friend represents. Friend says. This law was long overdue. It is very What we see from the employment figures is, yes, a important that home owners have proper protection decline in public sector employment, which would frankly from people, in effect, stealing their property, which is be inevitable whoever was in power right now, but the what squatting is. It is a criminal act and it is now a 600,000 net new jobs in the private sector show that criminal offence. some firms are expanding and growing, and we must be on their side. Q11. [108767] Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Last Q9. [108765] Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): week, it was revealed that officials at the UK Border Unemployment in Hartlepool and the north-east is Agency received bonuses of £3.5 million. Given the higher now than in May 2010. How much of that horrendous queues at our airports, the fact that increase is down to the Prime Minister’s Government’s 100,000 files have now been archived by the UKBA, policies? and the fact in the past six months 185 people have absconded having been given limited leave to remain, The Prime Minister: The point that I made to the does the Prime Minister agree that in future we should hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) is that the last reward success, not failure? Government excluded from the unemployment numbers people who were on temporary employment schemes. The Prime Minister: I completely agree with the right We include those people. People on the Work programme hon. Gentleman. There is absolutely no place in the are included in the unemployment numbers. We measure modern civil service for a presumption of good these things accurately, and comparing like for like, performance. I believe in paying people bonuses if they youth unemployment has fallen since the election. perform well and meet their targets, but if they do not perform well and do not meet their targets, they should Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Britain has an not get a bonus. excellent track record in scientific research and development, In terms of Heathrow and our airports, it is vitally despite historically low levels of funding. For this to important that we continue to make progress. This is an continue, and to continue to drive so much economic urgent issue for Britain. It is vital for our trade and vital growth, sustained funding is required. Can the Prime for inward investment that people have a decent experience Minister assure me that this will be delivered in this when they arrive at our airports. A new control room is Parliament and the next comprehensive spending review? opening at Heathrow this month, there are an extra 80 staff for peak times at Heathrow, and an extra The Prime Minister: Obviously, I cannot bind the 480 people will come on stream during the Olympic hands of the next comprehensive spending review, but period, but I am still not satisfied as to whether we need in this spending review we made an important decision to do more, including this week and next week, to really to protect the science budget. It would have been an get on top of this problem. easy target for reductions, and perhaps we could have spent the money on politically more attractive things, Q12. [108768] Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): My but we decided to take the long-term view and to save constituents in Bromsgrove are relieved to learn that the science budget because it is a key part of Britain’s the Government have already cleared one quarter of future. the record, irresponsible deficit left by the Labour party. They understand that you cannot keep spending Q10. [108766] Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): The what you do not earn, but what they would also like to Home Office recently announced that 800 front-line know is: has the Prime Minister received just one police officers would be cut in Wales, while Jeff Mapps, quarter of an apology from the Labour party? the chair of the Welsh Police Federation, says that the figure will be closer to 1,600, which would be the equivalent of the entire Gwent police force. Who is The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good right? point. I notice that the Labour party did not want to go anywhere near the International Monetary Fund today. The Prime Minister: The truth is that whoever was in Perhaps that is because of something else that its director government right now would be having to make cuts to said yesterday: “Youhave to compare” the British deficit police budgets. The Labour party is committed to a situation £1 billion cut in the police budget; we have made “against other countries which experienced severe deficit numbers, reductions in police budgets. The key to having police did not take action right away and are now facing very, very officers on the streets is to cut the paperwork, reform stressful financing terms that is putting their situation in jeopardy”. the pensions, and deal with the pay issues. We have the We would have been in jeopardy if we had not taken the courage to do that, and the hon. Gentleman’s party brave steps that we took, and very necessary they were should support it as well. too. 1131 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1132

Q13. [108769] Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Electoral Q15. [108771] Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) Commission figures show that the Conservatives have (Con): With unemployment down in Lancaster last received more than half a million pounds already this week, I visitedA&GPrecision and Sons in Preesall in year from people who have attended secret soirees at my constituency. It is a family-run company of only Downing street or Chequers. Is the reason why the 40 employees that supplies components for the Hawk. Prime Minister is out of touch that he listens to those It does high-precision work that is required nationally cliques, rather than to decent, hard-working people and internationally. I was told that it had turned two such as those in Scunthorpe? work experience places into full-time company-paid apprenticeships. Does that not show that things are The Prime Minister: There is a very big difference moving in the right direction in Lancashire? between the money that the Conservative party raises from business and individuals, and the money that The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Labour gets from unions, which determines its policies, for what he says. I am sure he will be pleased, as well, sponsors its Members of Parliament and elects its leaders. with the order that BAE Systems had today from Saudi They own you lock, stock and block vote. Arabia for Hawk aircraft, which is more good news for British jobs, British investment and British aerospace. Hon. Members: More! Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): Some of our Mr Speaker: Order. I am quite certain that Conservative constituents would be hungry today if it were not for Back Benchers wish to hear Mr Stephen Williams. the work of Foodbank and similar organisations in our constituencies. If current trends continue, Foodbank Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): The coalition reckons that by the next election it will be feeding half a Government have restored order and stability to the million of our constituents. Might I therefore ask the public finances, and have therefore won us international Prime Minister, before he completes his engagements confidence. Is not now the right time to put renewed today, to plan what the Government might do to counter effort and vigour into returning growth to the economy, that terrible trend and report back to the House? by the Government facilitating and guaranteeing investment in housing and infrastructure? The Prime Minister: First, let me join the right hon. Gentleman in welcoming the work that Foodbank does. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is entirely I have visited one of its sites myself to see what it does. right. I am sure that he welcomes the enterprise zone in What is absolutely vital in these difficult economic Bristol and the support for the animation and television times is that we do what we can to protect the poorest industries. What we need to do, both in Britain and in people in our country. That is why we have frozen the Europe, is to combine the fiscal deficit reduction that council tax, increased the basic state pension and uprated has given us the low interest rates with an active monetary benefits in line with inflation, which has protected the policy, structural reforms to make us competitive, and people who need protection the most. Yes, we have had innovative ways of using our hard-won credibility— to cut tax credits for those people on £30,000, £40,000 [Interruption.] Which we would not have if we listened or £50,000, but we have actually increased the tax to the muttering idiot sitting opposite me—[Interruption.] credits that the poorest people receive.

Mr Speaker: Order. [Interruption.] Order. I am very Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Prime Minister worried about the health of the Minister of State, and I might not agree about everything, but we do agree Department of Health, the right hon. Member for about certain things. For example, we agree that I Chelmsford (Mr Burns), who is so overexcited that he should never be promoted. [Laughter.] Another thing might suffer a relapse. I am a compassionate chap, so I that we agree about is the need to put public sector do not want that to happen. pensions on a sustainable and affordable footing. In The Prime Minister will please withdraw the word that context, judges are being asked to pay just 2% of “idiot”. It is unparliamentary. A simple withdrawal will their salary towards their pension, whereas the taxpayer suffice. We are grateful. pays 33%. That is neither affordable nor sustainable. Given the increases in pension contributions that we are The Prime Minister: Of course; I will replace it with, expecting from other, lower-paid public sector workers, “The man who left us this enormous deficit and this will the Prime Minister ensure that we apply the same financial crisis.” tests and requirements to judges, too?

Q14. [108770] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important After six months in government, the Prime Minister point. Judicial pensions have always been treated separately, announced that his Government had created 500,000 because of what judges do for our country, but on private sector jobs. After two years, he is giving us the public sector pensions more generally we have managed figure of 600,000 jobs since the election. Why has the to—[Interruption.] rate of growth slowed down so much? Mr Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister is making a The Prime Minister: There were 100,000 extra people reply to a serious question. Let us hear it with a degree in employment over the last quarter, and in the last two of respect and restraint. months we have seen repeated falls in unemployment and increases in employment. I would have thought that The Prime Minister: There was going to be a separate the hon. Lady would welcome that. judicial pensions Bill under the last Government. 1133 Oral Answers23 MAY 2012 Oral Answers 1134

On public sector pensions more generally, we have Husband has given me information that suggests that reduced the future cost by half while maintaining a senior figures in the establishment knew what was going public sector pension system that is more generous than on. The Crown Prosecution Service refuses to pursue what people are able to access in the private sector. these matters, and instead the Home Office has sought As for my hon. Friend’s earlier remarks, I have got to issue compensation payments. Youngmen were detained plans for him. by the state and then abused by the state. Does the Prime Minister agree that a full inquiry is necessary, to Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and ensure that justice is done and is seen to be done? Lesmahagow) (Lab): Prison officer—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: The first thing that the hon. Gentleman should do—I am sure he already has—is Mr Speaker: Order. The House will be relieved to make sure that any evidence that he has of abuse, know that I do not intend to go into any of that, but I cover-ups of abuse or compliance with abuse is given to do want to hear Mr McCann. the Crown Prosecution Service and the authorities so that it can be properly investigated. The Home Affairs Mr McCann: Prison officer Neville Husband abused Committee, on which I sat, looked into the issue in young men in the Medomsley detention centre for years past and made a number of recommendations. I decades before he was prosecuted and sentenced for will look carefully at what he says and see whether there some of his crimes. A constituent who was abused by is more advice that I can provide. 1135 23 MAY 2012 1136

Speaker’s Statement G8 and NATO Summits

12.33 pm 12.34 pm Mr Speaker: I have a short statement to make. Colleagues will be aware that the Prime Minister has extended a The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I welcome formal invitation to Nobel prize winner and newly your announcement, Mr Speaker. Daw Aung San Suu elected parliamentarian Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to visit Kyi is a remarkable woman, who for so many years has the United Kingdom next month. At my request and been effectively imprisoned in her own country. It is an that of the Lord Speaker, she has kindly agreed to incredible testament to change in that country that she address Members of both Houses in Westminster Hall is now able to travel and speak freely, including in this on Thursday 21 June at 3 pm. Further details about Parliament. applications to attend will be sent to Members in due With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a course. statement on the G8 and NATO summits, which I attended in America last weekend. The common theme across both summits was economic stability and international security. At the G8, we reached important conclusions on dealing with our debts, growing our economies and dealing with the risks in the eurozone. Let me take each in turn. Deficit reduction and growth are not alternatives. We need the first to deliver the second. There was absolutely no debate about this: it was my view, Chancellor Merkel’s view, President Obama’s view and President Hollande’s view. Indeed, France will balance its budget at a faster rate than Britain. In Britain, in two years, we have cut the deficit we inherited from the last Government by more than a quarter. Our approach has been endorsed again by the International Monetary Fund this week, and by the OECD. At a time of tight budgets, a proper growth plan requires not just a credible fiscal policy, which secures the low interest rates about which I was speaking just a moment ago, but structural reforms to make our economies more competitive, active monetary policy, and innovative use of our hard-won credibility to ensure investment in long-term infrastructure. We are taking all those steps in the UK and promoting them in Europe as well. In every area, we need to do more. Prime Minister Monti and I have gathered 10 other EU leaders to call for the completion of the single market in digital and services—classic structural reform to our economies. President Hollande is coming forward with creative proposals, such as project bonds, and, as the House knows, in recent months the European Central Bank has helped supply liquidity to European banks. I will pursue all those elements at the informal European Council tonight, and at the formal Council in June, after which I will of course make a statement to the House. Growing our economies also means doing everything we can to get trade moving. At the end of the G8 meeting, there was a serious and substantive discussion about the potential for an EU-US trade deal. The EU and US together make up half the world’s GDP. There is a huge amount of work to be done—and a further effort will be made and a report will be produced at the G20 next month—but that could have a positive impact on both sides of the Atlantic. The greatest risk facing the eurozone and, indeed, the world economy, is clearly the situation in Greece. The future of Greece is for the Greek people to determine. It is for them to decide what is best for their country. However, we cannot afford to allow that issue to be 1137 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1138 endlessly fudged and put off. The Greek election should NATO’s military commanders set out the progress in in effect be a straightforward choice between staying in the campaign. Attacks by insurgents are down and the eurozone—with the responsibilities that that entails—or transition to Afghan control is on track. Over the next taking a different path. The eurozone—and Europe as a few weeks, we will reach the point at which 75% of the whole—needs to have contingency plans in place for population will be living in areas where Afghan forces both eventualities. That should involve strengthening are in the lead for security. The vital next steps are to banks, protecting financial systems and ensuring decisive deliver the final stages of transition, and to continue the action by European institutions to prevent contagion. build-up of the Afghan national security forces and Whatever the outcome, this Government will do whatever ensure they are properly funded for the future. Britain is is necessary to protect this country and secure our pledging £70 million—$100 million—a year, but it is economy and financial system. right that other countries should step up and contribute Alongside the discussion on the economy, I had two to the future of Afghanistan, irrespective of the role further priorities at the G8: to continue the good work they have played so far. The summit marked a turning of the G8 on development, and to support the Arab point in those contributions, with almost $1 billion being spring and the promotion of democracy and reform. pledged to support the Afghan national security forces. On development, the New Alliance for Food Security Britain has played a leading role in the alliance for and Nutrition is an important initiative that aims to reasons of our own security. Three years ago, some help 50 million people lift themselves out of poverty three quarters of the most serious terrorist plots against over the next 10 years. For countries to receive help, Britain had links to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I am they need to show a real commitment to transparency now advised that that figure has fallen to around a half. and good governance. In return, they get substantial Our aim is an Afghanistan that is able to take care of its support to generate private sector investment in food own security without the need for foreign troops, and production. I believe that that is a great combination of an Afghanistan that can prevent al-Qaeda returning promoting good governance and helping Africa feed its and posing a threat to us and to our allies around the people. I will be building on this with a major event on world. hunger during the Olympic games in the UK. The tremendous hard work of our courageous Encouraging the private sector to create jobs is one of servicemen and women is making that possible. After the best routes to sustainable, equitable growth in poorer 10 long years, they will finally be coming home. I pay countries. However, aid still has a vital role to play. For tribute to them. Their service and their sacrifice is the first time in a decade the amount of aid given by the beyond measure. We remember in particular all those world’s richest countries to the world’s poorest countries who have given their lives in this vital task to keep our has fallen back. Promises are being broken, and that is country safe, and I commend this statement to the House. wrong. Britain continues to honour its commitments. Other nations should do likewise, and in the G8 that we 12.41 pm will chair next year, we will once again produce the report that shows who has and who has not kept their Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I am promises. grateful to the Prime Minister for his statement. Let me The G8 also reached important conclusions on Libya, start with the NATO summit. On Afghanistan, the Iran and Syria. Specifically on Syria, there was backing Opposition welcome the summit’s confirmation that for the Annan plan, and for further UN measures if the transition of full security responsibility from the Assad does not change course. It was significant that international security assistance force to the Afghan the Russians agreed to that text. national security forces is set for completion by mid-2013, I raised Burma and the need to support the foundations and that British combat operations are set to end by the of a lasting and irreversible transition to democracy. I end of 2014. want to make that a feature of our G8 next year. I am Let me echo the Prime Minister’s words about our sure the whole House looks forward to welcoming Aung troops. They have served heroically in Afghanistan for San Suu Kyi when she addresses Parliament next month. more than a decade now, and we owe them enormous Let me turn briefly to the NATO summit. Some gratitude. I am sure I speak for the whole House and the people write off NATO as a relic of the past, but I Prime Minister when I say that we want to see them believe it is vital to our future security. The threats home with their families in the right way—one that NATO countries face largely come from beyond our respects the professionalism they have shown and the borders—from failed states, terrorism and nuclear sacrifices they have made. To that end, will the Prime proliferation. Because of that, it makes sense for NATO Minister give the House a clear indication of the timetable to be prepared, to link up with partners around the for the expected draw-down of British combat troops world, to act out of area, and to spend less on the between now and 2014? Will he tell us how many British weapons of past conflicts such as battle tanks and more service personnel he expects to remain in Afghanistan on the technology needed for tomorrow’s conflicts. All after 2014 and which services they are likely to be drawn those things were agreed at the summit. from, and will he confirm that they will remain under a That is not to say that NATO should not take steps to NATO command and control structure? Will he also defend Europe and north America—it should, and we tell the House whether he has had discussions with declared at the summit that the interim ballistic missile President Zardari on the important issue of land access defence capability to protect Europe is operational. It across Pakistan, which is so vital for British military was particularly good to have a special session with the and ISAF supplies? partners who work with NATO around the world, and On the political situation in Afghanistan, does the in particular the 50 countries that make up the NATO-led Prime Minister agree that honouring the sacrifices and alliance in Afghanistan. bravery of our troops means taking the political challenge 1139 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1140

[Edward Miliband] What did the Prime Minister actually achieve at the summit? We know some of the things he did. He there as seriously as we take the military challenge? watched the football—nice pictures! He went to the Given that the final stage of the military campaign is gym. He even squeezed in some sight-seeing. The only under way, what concrete steps will now be taken that thing there is not a photo of is of him making a were not already in place before the Chicago summit to difference to the world economy—in other words, doing secure an inclusive political settlement within Afghanistan his job. At the G20 last November, he signed a communiqué and between Afghanistan’s regional partners? Does he stating that if “global conditions materially worsen”, agree that the international community has talked for a countries will take action “to support domestic demand.” long time about talks about talks on the political settlement Well, global conditions have worsened, so where is the we need, and that we need far greater urgency in seeking action for growth? Where is the decisive shift we need that settlement for when our troops come home? across the global economy? Why has he not delivered it? On the G8 summit, we join the Government in calling He has not delivered it because he does not believe in it. for an immediate end to violence to stop the continuing The Prime Minister is actually making things worse, bloodshed in Syria, and I join the Prime Minister in his not better. Last Sunday, the Chancellor went on television remarks on Burma. and said that speculation about the break-up of the On the global economy, we desperately needed a plan euro was damaging Britain’s economy. He said that for growth, for both Europe and the international “it’s open speculation…about the future of some countries in the community. The Prime Minister entertained Opposition eurozone which I think is doing real damage”. Members with his description of President Hollande as Will the Prime Minister explain, then, why he decided his new best buddy, given that he endorsed the President’s to do just that last Wednesday and say, “Make up or opponent in the most fulsome terms. The Prime Minister break up”? It might have rhymed, but does he not told Le Figaro: understand that it did nothing to help our economy or “Nicolas Sarkozy has my support. I say it clearly.” anyone else’s? The Foreign Office was a bit perturbed and started Given the seriousness of the position in Greece, does briefing about that, saying: the Prime Minister really believe that for him to deliver an ultimatum to Greek voters over the weekend about “We put all the chips on one card and it turned out not to be the ace...It was an error of judgment and not what was advised”. their election was such a good idea? I would have thought that after his experience of the French election, Perhaps he will tell us whether he was advised to see he might have realised it was not such a good idea to get President Hollande but twice refused to do so? The involved. Foreign Office also said something that, after today, I think we can all concur with: Finally, on tonight’s European summit, euro bonds are important and a stronger firewall would make a “The Prime Minister has a habit of shooting from the hip.” difference, but the crucial thing is demand. Does he not That is certainly true. accept that without a plan for growth and demand in Europe, we cannot get a solution on deficits across In reality, we did not get the conclusions and action Europe that is either politically or economically sustainable? we needed from the summit because the international The problem with this Prime Minister is that he can community is divided—not united, as the Prime Minister only offer more of the same. He cannot be part of the said—between those who believe we must have a decisive solution because he is part of the problem. All he offers shift towards growth, such as President Obama, now is more austerity. It is not working in Britain, and it is joined by President Hollande, and those who believe not working in Europe. It is a failed plan from a failing that the answer lies in more of the same, such as the Prime Minister. German Chancellor and this Prime Minister. For two years he has been the high priest of austerity, telling the world that austerity alone is the answer, but now the The Prime Minister: Five minutes and absolutely no recognition has dawned that it is not working, and he plan! The Leader of the Opposition had nothing positive finds himself on the wrong side of the argument. That to say. It was a good joke about Sarkozy, but let me say is why he is desperately scrabbling around to say that this: we all have our faults, but I would rather have a President Hollande is his great friend. reputation for being loyal to my friends than for knifing my brother. What has the Prime Minister delivered at home? The recovery has turned to recession, there has been no The right hon. Gentleman started with NATO and growth for 18 months and 1 million young people are asked some serious questions, so let me give him some out of work. He was fond of quoting yesterday’s IMF serious answers. He asked for a clear indication about report, but he did not quote this from Christine Lagarde: the draw-down. We will go down to 9,000 troops by the end of this year. Clearly, we need to set out a pathway “Growth is too slow and unemployment—including youth unemployment—is too high.”— between now and the end of 2014. I want it to be based on the conditions on the ground and on how well the [Interruption.] Hang on a sec. I am getting to it. She transition is going in the three provinces for which we continued: are responsible. Obviously, I will keep the House updated “Policies to bolster demand before low growth becomes entrenched on that. We do not want a great cliff edge at the end. are needed”. The right hon. Gentleman asked what would be left That is not his position. His position is: more of the at the end of 2014. We have made a clear decision on same. So we have the ultimate irony of a Prime Minister this. President Karzai asked us to provide an officer who has delivered a double-dip recession lecturing other training college in Afghanistan and we will be doing people on how to get growth. that. We have the assistance of the Australians and the 1141 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1142

New Zealanders on that, and we hope that others will The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes an be joining in. That is the baseline of our commitment, incredibly important point, which is that a single currency but clearly we will listen to any other requests. The right requires an active, interventionist central bank behind hon. Gentleman asked whether it would be a NATO-led it. That is something that we have been saying for a very operation in terms of training: yes it will, but there will long time, and it is one of the reasons I have always not be NATO combat operations after 2014. been sceptical about the single currency. There is a The right hon. Gentleman asked about the relationship growing realisation that, alongside plans to deal with with Pakistan and about the vital issue of the ground deficits to provide fiscal credibility, there is a need for a lines of communication—the so-called GLOCs. It is more active monetary policy. That is what we have in essential that they are reopened. I spoke to Prime the UK, with our single currency across our nations, Minister Gilani about this when he visited the UK a and if Europe is to have a working single currency, it week or so ago, and I spoke to President Zidari at the needs that sort of monetary policy too. conference. I am confident that progress will be made but, frankly, it needs to be made more rapidly than is Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): currently the case. While I welcome the change of rhetoric over the weekend, particularly from the Prime Minister, in recognising The right hon. Gentleman asked about the political that austerity alone will not work—at least, from his challenge, and he is right about that. I have said all point of view, in Europe; he might apply that here, along that, alongside the military surge, we need a too—will he tell us whether the German position has political surge. We are working very hard with the changed at all? It does not seem to have done so, but Afghans and the Pakistanis to deliver that. We have until it does, I shall find it hard to believe that the made a very clear offer to the Taliban that if they lay eurozone can come up with anything convincing or down their weapons and join a political process, that credible before the Greek elections on 17 June. process will be open to them. But we have to be prepared for the political process not advancing as far as we The Prime Minister: I have great respect for the right would like, and that is why we must ensure that the hon. Gentleman, and he raises absolutely the right build-up of the Afghan national security forces goes point. I would say that the German approach is changing, according to plan so that we can hand over in good to an extent, because the Germans know that alongside order, as I believe we will. deficit reduction plans, in a single currency, there needs I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said about to be greater co-ordination of that single currency. Syria and Burma. On President Hollande, let me make Their concern is that they do not want to take their foot this point. President Hollande said something that I off the deficit reduction until they have more of a think the right hon. Gentleman should perhaps adapt political system around the single currency. I understand slightly, then repeat. He said: their concern. This is one of the reasons that I never “The national debt is the enemy of the left and of France.” wanted to join a single currency; I have always believed We have never heard the right hon. Gentleman say that a single currency involved a sort of single economic anything as clear as that before. Let us look at what government. The struggle is to try to convince countries President Hollande is doing. When he was asked how in Europe that, alongside deficit reduction, they need a he would stimulate growth, he said: more active monetary policy, a European Central Bank that stands behind the currency, and the structural “The means cannot be extra public spending, since we want to reforms, such as completing the single market, that we rein it in”. have always argued for. The right hon. Gentleman asked about our approach on growth. We agree with the Italian Prime Minister Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I welcome that we need structural reform in Europe. We agree with the emphasis on growth. Does the Prime Minister agree the French President that we need a more active monetary that the Bank of England and the banking regulators in policy in Europe. We agree with the German Chancellor the UK need to amend their method of operation to that deficit reduction is vital in getting interest rates ensure that sufficient money and credit are available to down. The problem is that Europe has not had all three, fuel a private sector-led recovery, rather than simply but we support all three of those things. providing more cheap money for the state? Could they Finally, I would just say to the right hon. Gentleman not learn from America, which is doing that very well, that nobody I can find in Europe, not even the left-wing in order to avoid the problems that Europe is being party in Greece, backs his idea of putting an extra plunged into by doing it far worse than we are? £200 billion of borrowing into the British economy. That is the Labour policy. It would put up interest rates, The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes an it would wreck our economy and it would wreck our important point. When I say “active monetary policy”, prospects—which is exactly what Labour did in office. I do not simply mean a central bank that engages in quantitative easing, or whatever. We need to ensure that Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Did all the monetary institutions of a country, including its anyone at the G8 summit emphasise that the basic cause banks, are properly capitalised and properly working. of the economic and political crisis in Europe was not Around Europe, there is a lot of work that needs to be the Greek debt but the single European currency and its done on that. lack of a lender of last resort, which is now a threat to the global stability of the banks? May I put it to the Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): Prime Minister that, until the leaders of the great With regard to the Prime Minister’s discussion with the nations grasp that fact and act upon it, the turmoil in President of Pakistan, does he deplore Barack Obama’s Europe will continue? offensive discourtesy towards the President, the sovereignty 1143 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1144

[Sir Gerald Kaufman] Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): There is increasing pressure for political union between certain member of whose country the United States has violated with states. Whether this is achieved by enhanced co-operation, deadly effect? Will he confirm that Britain stands shoulder by separate intergovernmental treaty or by other stealth to shoulder with our Commonwealth partner in defying measures, does my right hon. Friend accept that, irrespective American colonialism? of the European Union Act 2011, such a fundamental change in the relationship between such member states The Prime Minister: I have to say that I would not put of the European Union and the United Kingdom would it like that. We need to work very closely with our necessitate a referendum? American allies, within our special relationship, to try to deal with the terrorism that has come out of Afghanistan The Prime Minister: I do not agree with that position. and is still coming out of parts of Pakistan. It is in our I think the right position for the UK is to say that we national interest to do that, but I always urge all should hold a referendum only if power were to pass international friends and partners to show patience and from Westminster to Brussels or if we were to join some understanding with Pakistan because it is the biggest new treaty or political construction that involved the victim of terror of all. It has complex politics, and it passing of that power. I agree with my hon. Friend, needs to be given the space to resolve some of those however, that the single currency clearly has within it issues. It also needs to know that its friends, such as the seeds of greater political union, so we have to work Britain, will not leave it after the Afghan conflict is over, out—in this country, in our coalition and in the and that we are there for long-term partnership, friendship Conservative party—how to respond to that and how and support. to get the best deal for Britain as the situation develops.

Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): The (LD): Of course I associate myself and my colleagues Prime Minister talks about the continued importance of with the tributes to our serving forces, particularly in NATO and about some of the things that have been Afghanistan, and to those who have given their lives. agreed, but the agreed changes are largely peripheral On the global economy, will the Prime Minister continue and the need for reform is profound. Is there not a to make it clear that, although we are not in the eurozone danger that the understandable focus on the economic and should not wish to join the eurozone, it is in our crisis is sucking the life of out of the need for reform in interests that we support the other countries in Europe NATO? Will he focus on that? Notwithstanding the that are in it—including, as the Father of the House understandable needs of the economy, will the Prime said, by supporting their structural reform? Does he Minister make sure that the change programme that is also agree that an increase in the internal market across so badly needed to get decent interoperability within Europe is in their interest and ours, and that construction NATO does not lose its momentum? at home is the best way of creating the growth that we need in this country as an immediate priority? The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman speaks with great knowledge of this subject. I would be a little The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is entirely more optimistic: one NATO reform, which I know he right. It is in Britain’s interests that the problems in the would welcome, aimed to cut the bureaucratic and eurozone are dealt with. We have consistently made a headquarters posts around Europe. To be fair to Secretary- whole series of suggestions about firewalls, about General Rasmussen, he has done an excellent job in strengthening banks and about consistent and strong delivering that. We have also delivered the ballistic contingency plans. The point that I was making at the missile defence in interim capability, which is another weekend is that it has become ever more urgent to make important step forward for NATO. Where I am perhaps those contingency plans because, frankly, it is not in our more optimistic than the right hon. Gentleman is that I power to determine whether Greece decides to stay in think the reality of the situation will drive us towards the eurozone. We have to prepare for every eventuality, reform. Everyone faces tough budgets, and the fact that however difficult that might be. America is now providing almost three quarters of NATO’s funding and assets is unsustainable, so other Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): This morning, the countries are, frankly, going to have to step up to the European Parliament passed, by a very large majority, a plate, look at their arrangements and co-operate more, call for a financial transactions tax. Can the Prime as we are with the French, to deliver more of the teeth Minister foresee what his stance, and that of other and less of the tail. leaders, will be on that matter this evening? Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): May I warmly The Prime Minister: My view is very simple: I am endorse the Prime Minister’s view that NATO is vital to against a financial transactions tax, for the simple reason our security and congratulate him on the very positive that the European Commission did a piece of research role he played at the summit as the leader of one of into such a tax and found that it would cost hundreds of NATO’s most important countries? Does he agree that thousands of jobs. While it might sound as though it the Secretary-General’s programme for smart defence is would tax the bankers and all the rest of it, it would key to the future reform of NATO and that the right actually put up the cost of people’s insurance policies hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) and pension policies and drive all that activity offshore. spoke a great deal of sense? I am not surprised that some other European countries support it, because they see it as a good way of taking a The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for lot of tax out of the UK and spending it in Europe. his remarks. The truth is that there is duplicated defence Well, I am not falling for it. capacity all over Europe, much of which is not deployable. 1145 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1146

We need all countries to undergo the difficult and with GCHQ, but also involves the private sector. We painful things we have done in strategic defence reviews hope to work with other NATO members on that to work out what weapons and systems are needed for capability to make sure that we share best experience the conflicts of the future, recognising that NATO is and endeavours, and that should lead to savings for us less likely to fight land invasions and much more likely and for others. to have to deal with failed states and terrorism, so the needed capacities are different. Even that will not be Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The euro is enough, as we then need a lot more co-operation— as dead as Monty Python’s parrot: it is no more, it has particularly, I think, between the leading members of ceased to be, it has expired. So why do the euro elite NATO, which is why we are working so closely with the continue to claim that it is alive and well? Is it not French—so that we can deliver complementary capabilities essential that Europe implements an orderly break-up and get more done as a result. of the eurozone before the markets force an economic tsunami? Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): With the aim of achieving growth, the IMF specifically recommended The Prime Minister: Like my hon. Friend, I have yesterday that UK banks slow their acquisition of capital always been a genuine euro-sceptic—sceptical about the buffers, thereby making more money available to British euro—which is why I did not want to join it. We have to businesses and small businesses. Do the Government recognise, however, what is in this country’s interest, agree with that recommendation, and will they work which is for the eurozone to sort out its issues and with the Bank of England to implement it as soon as difficulties. I believe that will involve greater fiscal transfers possible? and it must involve eurobonds over time. As I have said, it involves a more active monetary policy in Europe. We The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an should encourage our European partners to go down important point. This is a difficult issue to get right. We this road to make sure that their system works properly. are rightly discussing two problems: the need for growth, There are real dangers from disorganised exits from the and the need for financial stability and ensuring we are euro. It is not just that countries would devalue, which safe, with the headwinds of a potential eurozone storm would have an impact on us, as we have to think about approaching. I think the best approach is to work hand the impact on financial institutions and banks around in glove with the Bank of England and the Financial Europe, including on British banks. It is very important Services Authority to get that balance right. That is that the eurozone takes the necessary steps to put in what the Government will do. place the contingency plans to keep it safe.

Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I congratulate Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Now that the the Prime Minister on his stamina, as I calculate that by Prime Minister is lecturing Greece about the need for this evening he will have done three summits in two growth and that we need a little bit in Spain and the continents in five days. I reiterate the points made by eurozone, so he says, for the sake of clarity can we get to my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex the bottom of growth here? Will he repeat these words (Nicholas Soames) and the right hon. Member for after me: “I’m going to drop the austerity plan and go Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth). We have to impress for growth in Britain”? Now’s your chance. on NATO members that the conclusion of the Afghanistan The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I do not agree campaign is no justification for cutting defence budgets. with the hon. Gentleman. I deeply regret that my last It is essential to have a full-blooded review of NATO encounter with him was perhaps a bit sharper than it strategy, with a full-blooded commitment from all its should have been, and I hope he will accept my apology. members. He is a tremendous ornament to this House, and that The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his will always remain the case. I do not agree with him remarks about my summitry. By the end of tonight, that because I think a deficit reduction plan is necessary to will be enough summits for quite some time, although deliver the low interest rates we need, which are essential the G20 will soon catch up on us. What he says about for growth. I make the point again that when this NATO is right. We need reviews from all NATO countries, Government came to power, our interest rates were the which need to go through their budgets and work out same as those in Spain. Today, ours are less than what is necessary for national defence. We need to ask 2% and Spain’s are over 6%. One reason for that is that what more we can all do to make sure that NATO has we have a credible fiscal policy. the capacities it needs for the future. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend give the House an absolute cast-iron Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I endorse assurance that while he is Prime Minister this country what the Prime Minister said about the importance of will never, ever join the euro—unlike the Leader of the NATO to our national security and the need to spend Opposition, who seems very open to the idea? more on the technology of tomorrow. Cyber-terrorism poses an ever-greater threat. Will the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: I am very happy to give that assure us that within NATO intense focus will be devoted pledge. I note that the Leader of the Opposition said and resources given to that big and growing problem that whether we joined the euro would depend on how across the world? long he was Prime Minister; I am not sure which prospect is the more terrifying. The Prime Minister: One of the things the UK did in the strategic defence review was to invest some of the Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Youngpeople savings made—from memory, I think it was £900 million— in Merseyside see their friends suffering from a lack of into a cyber-defence programme. That is being co-ordinated opportunities, and they feel distressed when they see 1147 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1148

[Alison McGovern] The Prime Minister: We discuss the importance of freedom, human rights and democracy regularly with huge unemployment rates among young people in Greece Russian colleagues. When I visited Russia, I met civil and Spain. Will the Prime Minister say specifically what society organisations to discuss precisely those issues. discussions he had with G8 colleagues about infrastructure However, I think that it is very worthwhile to have development as part of a global plan for growth? Russia in the G8. When we are discussing issues such as Iran and Syria, in which Russia has an interest—and, frankly, we want it to join in the efforts we are pursuing—I The Prime Minister: We did discuss the issue of think that it is helpful to have the Russians there. infrastructure development, because I think that it can be part of what needs to be done. The rise of unemployment Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): In the absence of is tragic in any country, but the figures in Greece, Spain progress towards a global trade deal through the Doha and elsewhere in southern Europe are eye-watering: round, an EU-US deal could be a decent second-best if 50% of young people are unable to find work. it meaningfully reduced tariff and non-tariff barriers to As I have said, I think that the elements of the plan trade. Can the Prime Minister give an indication of a that we need are the fiscal credibility that provides low plausible time frame for the conclusion of such a deal, interest rates and the active monetary policy that supports and perhaps also an indication of how much the UK demand in the economy, as it has in the UK, but economy in particular might benefit from it? combined with structural reforms. There is a need for proper structural reforms in Greece and other countries The Prime Minister: I think that there is still something so that they can have competitive economies. The extra salvageable from the Doha round—all the elements of element is using the credibility that we have earned, and trade facilitation, such as helping to reduce customs the strength of the Government’s balance sheet, to try times and charges, rather than the bigger Doha package— to deliver innovative finance to infrastructure and credit. and I think that we should pursue that. We had a That is obviously an option that is open in Europe as conversation at the end of the G8 in which we agreed to well, and I think that it is what President Hollande is go away and look at our “issues paper” for the G20, and referring to when he talks about project bonds. Those to establish whether there was a small enough distance are the elements of a growth plan. We have them all in to be closed between the EU and the US to make a deal the UK, and we need them in Europe as well. worthwhile. I am very hopeful. Britain is one of the most open trading nations. There are real concerns on both sides—obviously there is a French position on Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does my right agriculture, and an American position on many services and hon. Friend agree that when we look at the scale, and other issues—but I think that we will have a good look the time scale, of the burden that fell on what was then at this at the G20 and see whether we can fast-track it. West Germany at the time of German reunification, we have a sense of the awesome challenge that would face Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Is the Prime any German Chancellor trying to achieve fiscal union Minister aware that Greece spends 50% more on defence in Europe? than ourselves, France or Turkey, and is the biggest arms importer in Europe? Is he aware that the Greek The Prime Minister: Yes, I think that my hon. Friend shipping industry, which accounts for 7% of Greek is entirely right. Some people imply—it was implied in GDP, and the Greek Orthodox Church, which is the the question from the former Chancellor, the right hon. biggest land and property owner, do not pay a penny in Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling)—that tax? When he talks to the Greek Prime Minister, will he German stubbornness is unreasonable. It is understandable. ask him to scale down defence spending and get the Obviously, for the success of the eurozone we need oligarchs and the Orthodox Church to pay a little bit to everyone to adopt approaches such as those I have solve the Greek crisis? described in terms of monetary policy, eurobonds and The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman makes the rest of it, but it is important to understand people’s a good point. However much one can look at the Greek motivations and difficulties, because they are what lie situation and feel for the people who are suffering as a behind the current impasse. result of unemployment and living standards, there is a crying need for genuine reform in Greece, and for more Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is good that the straightforward and honest politics when it comes to Russians shared in the motion on Syria, but even if we dealing with those problems. That means making sure leave aside the rigged elections in the Russian Federation, that people do pay their taxes, and making sure that there are still major human rights abuses in Russia. For industries are competitive. instance, Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s second trial has been The issue of defence spending is obviously more universally condemned by every international organisation complex because of the relationship between Greece in the world and, indeed, by many organisations in and Turkey, but as we are now both NATO members Russia. He tried to secure an appeal, but it was turned and Turkey is an aspirant EU nation, there should be an down only last week by Judge Alexander Voronov, who opportunity to decrease Greek spending on national is not an ordinary judge but a military judge in the defence, while of course encouraging it to be a good military chamber of the Supreme Court. When the NATO member at the same time. decision was handed down that there could be no appeal, it was done on the Russian armed forces website. Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): At the G8 Does that not show that Russia has a great distance to summit, did any of the leaders advance the argument go before it can really embrace being part of the humanity that dealing with the deficit and supporting growth of nations? were alternatives, or did they argue that it was necessary 1149 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1150 to bring about growth through monetary policy, by countries of the world; but you must give up the ambition supporting the banks and by getting trade going? Did of enriching uranium to such an extent that it could anyone advance the argument that it was necessary to deliver a nuclear weapon to you.” borrow one’s way out of debt? Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Whatever the structural The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very deficiencies and other problems that exist in Greece and important point. Absolutely no one suggested that dealing have existed there for a number of years, this problem with deficits and securing growth were alternatives. was not caused by that; it was caused by the banking They are complementary: we need both. That is the and economic crisis in the world, and the way in which view of everyone around the G8 table. There is only the eurozone has dealt with it. The suffering and austerity group of people who have their heads in the sand and in Greece is on a completely different scale from what are complete deficit deniers, and they are the people we have even envisaged in this country, and it is untenable who gave us the deficit in the first place. for it to continue. Will the Prime Minister go back and ask the euro partners—not least, of course, the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The Prime Germans—to think again about what we can do to Minister rightly drew attention to the level of youth bring about a different plan there? I remind him that unemployment in Greece, which is more than 50%. More Greece is a very proud nation. It is a very important ally than a quarter of adults are unemployed, and the of ours, it stood by us alone in 1941 against the Nazis, economy is set to contract by a further 6% in the current and we should do what we can to help it. financial year. The Prime Minister has preached austerity in this country and all around the world. That is exactly The Prime Minister: Of course I agree that Greece is what has been done in Greece, and that is exactly what an important ally. Relations between Britain and Greece the result has been. Is the Prime Minister prepared to are very strong, and the historical analogy the hon. put pressure on the European Central Bank, in so far as Gentleman draws is absolutely right. I do not agree, he can, to stop the austerity oppression in Greece and however, that the problems in Greece are caused only by start supporting the needs of ordinary people who have the euro or by the banking crisis. There are deep and worked very hard and do not deserve this misery? profound problems in the Greek economy that need to be dealt with. There must be the right combination: The Prime Minister: This is where I part company there need to be deficit reduction plans; there needs to with the hon. Gentleman. In this country, we have be an active monetary policy; there need to be reforms consistently said “You need to have deficit reduction, to the eurozone; and there need to be structural reforms. which delivers low interest rates and enables your central In the end, however, it will be for the Greek people to bank to pursue an active and expansionary monetary decide whether they want to do these things inside the policy”—which is what we have had in this country—“and eurozone our outside the eurozone. Clearly, a disorderly at the same time you need the structural reforms to exit would be very bad for Britain, and we should do ensure that your businesses are competitive and can everything we can to avoid that, but we need to plan for take on more people and grow.” That is what we are every eventuality and have proper contingencies in place. seeing in Britain, with 600,000 more private sector jobs. It is a world away from what is happening in Greece or in many other parts of the eurozone, which do not have Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): In the monetary policy accompanying the fiscal policy and the absence of much-needed supply-side reforms in the which have not undertaken the structural reforms we eurozone, I suggest a day of reckoning is fast approaching. are undertaking. Given that since the second world war there have been 80-plus cases of countries leaving a currency bloc and Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I am the vast majority of them have benefited from that, sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that the biggest does the Prime Minister think that we are fast approaching threat to our country at present is indeed the crisis in a time when we should stop talking about the need to the eurozone, but almost parallel with that is the possible save the euro, because it can create uncertainty and hit pending crisis in the middle east. Given that a very confidence and investment in this country? important conference begins today in Baghdad, did my right hon. Friend manage to find time at the weekend to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important emphasise to the Russian and Chinese leaders the point, but I am not entirely sure I agree. There are, of importance of their role in trying to ensure a peaceful course, examples of countries that have left currency outcome of the Iranian situation? pegs, and suffered in the short term but then recovered. There have also been countries that split their currency The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise in two; Czechoslovakia managed that process well. There that issue. A good portion of the G8 was spent discussing is a substantial difference, however, between such cases the situation in Iran, and specifically discussing the and situations where there is a potential breakaway talks that are under way in Baghdad today. It was from a currency zone with a single currency. That is a heartening that the Russians signed up to a pretty tough different situation because the banks are so intertwined. text on Iran, and I think that the path is very clear. That is why we must think very carefully about the Europe has rightly adopted the oil sanctions, and the contingency plans for such situations. pressure is beginning to tell on the Iranian economy. This is the moment at which to maximise the pressure, Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): The Prime Minister to encourage other countries around the world to join paid tribute to the troops who have come home from in with the sanctions, and to say to the Iranians “There Afghanistan. Recently, my wife, Norma, and I welcomed is a different pathway. You can have civil nuclear power; a Black Watch battalion home to Dundee. Can the you can have a more decent relationship with other Prime Minister assure me, current serving personnel in 1151 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1152

[Jim McGovern] stability to Afghanistan? Sadly, agreement was not reached on reopening the supply routes through Pakistan. Will the Black Watch, Black Watch veterans, my family and the Prime Minister comment further on that, and on my constituents that on his watch there will always be a the role of Pakistan as a key ally in our efforts to leave Black Watch? Afghanistan on a stable footing at the end of 2014?

The Prime Minister: I very much want us to keep the regimental structure; that is very important. At the The Prime Minister: That is a key point. We need to same time, however, we need to deliver this big change ensure we have northern routes as well, of course, and I in our armed forces—which, actually, will deliver a had a good meeting with the President of Azerbaijan to larger Army, but also a better balance between a professional discuss that issue. On Pakistan, Members are absolutely Army and a territorial Army. We are looking at exactly entitled to feel frustrated. We are enormous aid donors how that can be done, while saving the important regiments to Pakistan, and we have a very strong relationship with about which people rightly feel so strongly. the country. It is frustrating that the lines of control are still closed, but there are ongoing discussions and I am Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): At confident they will be reopened. We have to show an the G8 summit, my right hon. Friend the Prime understanding about how this country has suffered Minister discussed development, with the aim of lifting from terrorism, about the complexities of its politics 50 million people out of poverty in the next 10 years. and about the need to show real respect for its sovereignty May I therefore urge him to do even more in respect and its democracy. The message we must give to both of microfinance as a way of creating sustainable Afghanistan and Pakistan is that long after this war is economies over the long term, and to use charities such over, we will be there supporting both of them as strong as the MicroLoan Foundation in Chiswick, which gets a independent countries, diplomatically, politically, through 99% return on the money it gives to women in Africa to trade, through aid—through all the means we have—and create businesses for themselves and their families? we will not desert them.

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ point. We are, of course, committed to aid and development, Co-op): In a recent visit to Nigeria, I saw at first hand and to expanding the new alliance for food security and the great opportunity for agri-investment in that amazing nutrition programme that Barack Obama launched. country. However, the all-party group that I chair has Microfinance is important because it not only helps to heard a lot from British businesses about the logistical grow small businesses, but it empowers women, which challenges and security concerns of investment in Nigeria. can make an enormous difference to the success of While the new alliance for food security and nutrition is development. a good step, what support will the Prime Minister pledge to British companies looking to invest there, so Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Was there any discussion we get the win-win of both growth in British business about the situation in Yemen? The Prime Minister will and food and jobs for Nigerians? know that on Monday a bomb exploded in the middle of the unity day celebrations, killing 96, and this morning aid agencies have said that half the population is going The Prime Minister: When I went to Nigeria and met to starve to death. I appreciate what the Prime Minister the UK Trade & Investment team in Lagos, I was and his Government—and successive Governments—have hugely impressed by its work and its dedication, and done. However, while the Prime Minister has made also by the incredible links between British Nigerians Burma a priority for his chairmanship of the G8—I and Nigerian British, as it were, working between the also acknowledge your role, Mr Speaker, in championing two countries. We work very closely with the Nigerian the cause of Burma—can he not also find a little space Government on security, because there are considerable for Yemen, because a stable Yemen is in our interests? If security challenges, particularly in the north of the we do not support that country, al-Qaeda will take it country. Security training and counter-terrorism over and it will bleed to death. co-operation between the UK and Nigeria can help produce major dividends both for that country and for The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows trade and investment. that I absolutely agree with him on this. At the G8 summit, I talked about the next G8 and said it was very Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): Given that important that we address the security and development increasing exports to emerging economies needs to be a priorities of the future. I think both Yemen and Somalia key part of the growth strategy of many of the G8 fall squarely into that bracket. The recent hideous bomb nations, will the Prime Minister update us on any attack and loss of life in Yemen was extremely distressing. discussions he has had with other European leaders on We must focus a huge amount of effort on the country. progress on the pending free trade agreement between A development effort is going in: I think the Department the EU and India? for International Development will today announce an investment of £26 million in that country. We must also give an enormous amount of national security assistance The Prime Minister: We had a number of discussions to the country, and I discussed that in my bilateral with about the free trade agreements. There is a series of President Obama. such agreements: the Indian one; the Canadian one; the chance of getting one going with Japan. My view is that Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): May I echo what all of them are good news. The Korean one has been a the Prime Minister said about our brave servicemen and success, and we need to drive them all forward—and we women, who continue to strive to bring peace and are certainly in the vanguard of doing that. 1153 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1154

Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ me again commend Secretary-General Rasmussen for Co-op): May I echo the comments of those colleagues what he has done in reforming the huge number of who expressed concern at the scale of the cuts and the command posts and headquarters posts in NATO. I retrenchment being forced on Greece—the ordinary suspect that there is more to be done on that front, as people of Greece, not the Greek Government? While I well. agree with the Prime Minister that there need to be structural reforms and the changes he has suggested, Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Currently, would it not be better to have a bit more flexibility—a Britain has only some 3% of the European market in bit more European solidarity—rather than end up forcing services. Can the Prime Minister confirm just how Greece into a situation that leads not only to the collapse important completing the services market is for British of that country, but immense consequences for the services? eurozone and the entire world economy? The Prime Minister: On completing the single markets The Prime Minister: Obviously, we are not a participant in digital, in services and in energy, each of them can in the eurozone bail-out of Greece. We are supporting add, I believe, more than a percentage point on European Greece through the IMF, however. The hon. Gentleman GDP. The services market is particularly important must consider this point: other European and eurozone because it is an area that Britain excels at—not just countries, some of whom are not particularly rich financial services but everything, including construction themselves, have had a series of agreements with Greece and architecture. On opening up services in other countries, about what needs to be done and what money will be a number of countries are currently in breach of their put in, and effectively he is asking them to go back undertakings, so the pressure for this, particularly in repeatedly to their own Parliaments and say, “Well, I countries such as Germany, should be very great. promised I wouldn’t ask for any more for Greece, but here I am again asking for more.” That is very challenging Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): We all for them. As I have said, in the end it will be for the know the expression, “Give a man a fish and he can eat Greek people to decide, in their election, whether they for a day; give him a rod and he can eat for life.” want stay in the euro and keep to the undertakings they Therefore, why is some of the money being used to pay have given, or whether they want to choose a different down the debt in Greece and not instead being invested path. We in this country must be clear that we should in solar forests across Greece so that they can provide support all and any contingency plans to make sure that Europe with energy; being invested in rail links, so that either scenario can be safely delivered. people can travel between Greece and other European countries and thereby boost tourism; and being invested Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): The Prime Minister in universal broadband, so that we can connect Greece cited in his statement the extraordinary statistic that the to the world? We have a politically acceptable and EU and the US together make up more than half the economically sustainable solution, instead of putting world’s gross domestic product. Does he accept that this half a fish on the table, leaving the Greeks hungry and may well be the last generation for whom that is the angry by lunch time. case, and that it is therefore more vital than ever that we The Prime Minister: The Greeks have had a very reach out further and faster into developing markets to special deal—an enormous private sector haircut on support our exporters and build on our strengths as a their debt, through which creditors have been asked to country? take a share of the burden. The money that Greece has received in the last decade from the European Union The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right that the could have gone into many of the projects that the hon. share of world trade and the share of the world economy Gentleman points out. Part of the problem in parts of taken by the EU and America together is likely to the eurozone is that the early years of the euro saw wage decline as that of China and India rise, but I was always rates and unit costs of labour rise, rather than their taught in business that going back to one’s best and being fundamental changes to make these countries biggest customer to get that extra deal is often a very more competitive. good strategy, so we should be thinking exactly about that in terms of EU-US trade. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): It seems that there is a strong possibility that Greece will be forced Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): At a time when out of the eurozone, and we are obviously concerned defence budgets are constrained right the way across the about the impact on the economy that a disorderly exit alliance, is it not important for NATO itself to demonstrate, may have. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we in the same way as its member states, that every pound need to hold discussions with our European partners it spends is well spent? Will the UK therefore support and develop contingency plans to ensure that such an proposals being considered by the NATO secretariat to exit has the minimum possible impact on the United ensure that the external audit service for NATO is Kingdom? entirely independent of NATO, that accounts are published in a timely fashion—say, within six months of the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely year-end—and that they are available for parliamentarians right. Obviously, this is not something we want to see in this and other Parliaments in NATO states to scrutinise, happen, and it is in our interests that the eurozone deals in the same that we scrutinise our own defence expenditures? with its issues, strengthens its firewalls and strengthens its banks, and that we start to see the high interest rates The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend, who has great in parts of Europe come down. But it would be irresponsible knowledge of these things, makes a series of sensible not to prepare proper contingency plans, and that is suggestions and we should look carefully at them. Let what the Treasury and others have been doing. As I say, 1155 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1156

[The Prime Minister] we inherited made the IMF shiver. Secondly, and importantly, it forecasts that the UK will grow faster whether Greece stays in the euro or not is not within this year than France, Germany or the eurozone, so it is our power, and we must prepare for all eventualities; predicting that things will improve, not get worse. but obviously, a disorganised exit would cause real difficulties. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): As our brave troops come home from Afghanistan, one of the key Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Our country has issues is the long-term sustainability of the Afghan invested a lot in Afghanistan—a lot of sacrifice and a economy. In the past, its biggest export has been the lot of resource. So, along with many others, I am poppy crop, which has fuelled the illegal drugs trade increasingly concerned at the lack of progress in the worldwide. However, that self same product could be critical issues of politics and governance in Afghanistan, used to alleviate medical suffering worldwide. What which, by nearly all accounts, are getting worse, not consideration has been given to purchasing the poppy better. Will the Prime Minister therefore pledge to crop, so that we can use it for beneficial medical aims re-energise this process in order to give Afghanistan the and sustain the Afghan economy as well? best chance of surviving as an entity post-2014, ensuring that our efforts and sacrifice our not wasted? The Prime Minister: I have looked at this issue in some detail. The key thing is that if proper governance, The Prime Minister: I respect the hon. Gentleman’s proper rule of law and proper transport networks can views, not least because he served in the military and be delivered in a country, then what might be done with knows about what he speaks. Regarding the political its ability to grow poppy might be considered; that is surge in Afghanistan, he is perhaps being a little too what happened in Turkey. But I have a feeling that if a pessimistic. In Helmand province, the area for which we poppy-purchasing project were suddenly introduced now, have been responsible, we have seen the excellent Governor rather like in “Blue Peter”, you would buy one and they Mangal make some real steps forward in governance. would produce another one they had made earlier, so I There are district governors in almost all the province do not think it would work. But I do believe that the now, and we have seen a huge amount of progress in Afghan economy can develop, and that is one of the wheat seed distribution, building schools and hospitals reasons that we are spending a serious amount of and providing basic levels of service. But clearly we money not just on supporting the Afghan national need to do more, and what happens politically and in security forces but on economic development in terms of reconciliation will determine the nature of the Afghanistan, and clearly, that will be key to its future. outcome we achieve in Afghanistan. Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I welcome Recently, I had a meeting with Afghan Sikhs in my the declaration at the NATO summit on the interim constituency. Under the Taliban, they were forced to ballistic missile defence system. Russia, however, remains wear yellow ribbons and were prohibited from cremating hostile to the scheme. Has progress been made in persuading their deceased loved ones. They have raised with me Russia that the scheme’s primary point is to protect grave concerns about their freedom in the future and Europe from ballistic missile threats from rogue nations, women’s freedom in Afghanistan. Can the Prime Minister not from Russia? update the House on any discussions that took place in Chicago on minority rights and women’s rights, so that The Prime Minister: Obviously, it is still a difficult we do not see a rolling back of social progress? discussion between NATO and Russia, but I think there is a level of understanding that the point of having a The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady raises a very ballistic missile defence shield is to protect Europe from important point. I had a good meeting with President potential threats, including, for instance, Iran. It is Karzai in Chicago, and one of the points I made to him important to remember that this is not instead of nuclear was that the quality of Afghan democracy, Afghan deterrence—it sits along side nuclear deterrence, which rights and Afghan justice will be absolutely key in remains a key part of our defence posture. delivering success. The Afghan constitution does guarantee some basic rights. That is why we say that, of course, if Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The the Taliban put down their arms and stop fighting, they International Monetary Fund confirms in its article IV can discuss a future political role, rather as IRA-Sinn report published yesterday—if we needed it confirmed— Fein have done in Northern Ireland, but they have to that plan A is not delivering growth. It has also made a accept the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution. number of suggestions and recommendations, many of which have been discussed in the Chamber today, and Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I am immensely some of them will be implemented in the coming months. proud of the commitment to international aid made by The report goes on to suggest—recommend, even—a this country, but I am concerned about the levels of plan B to boost growth and temporarily cut taxes. Is the some of the other members of the G8. May I urge the Prime Minister listening? Prime Minister to use next year’s presidency to remind some of the other members of their Gleneagles The Prime Minister: I listen very carefully to what the commitment? IMF says, and to me, two things stand out. First, it says that reducing the high structural deficit over the medium The Prime Minister: I would be delighted to do that. term remains essential and that the UK has made One of the strengths of the G8 is that it produces this substantial progress towards achieving a more sustainable accountability report, and I will make sure that a copy budgetary position—alongside saying that the situation is put in the Library of the House of Commons because 1157 G8 and NATO Summits23 MAY 2012 G8 and NATO Summits 1158 it is very compelling. It really holds countries to the to work very hard with them to encourage them to take promises they made about aid, about spending and a path that will make sure that their economies grow for about the different bits of that spending. People can see the future. it there, in black and white: who has met their promises and who has not. We will continue to do that next year. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I welcome the Prime Minister’s alert on the levels of aid going from the richest to the poorest countries. In following through on Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): There the commitment to sustainable hunger reduction, will are nearly 25 million people unemployed across the EU he promote more support for smallholder farmers, who at the moment, and economic demand is continuing to number more than half the world’s 1 billion hungry fall in the eurozone and in this country, whereas in people, so that they and their families can grow and eat America it is rising this year. Will the Prime Minister more and better food, can trade produce and can employ therefore follow the lead of the US and Japanese others, thus helping communities to thrive? Governments, and the advice of the IMF yesterday, and bring forward much-needed capital spending to boost The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an infrastructure and get the construction sector off its important point; part of the presentation given to the knees? G8 by the New Alliance for Food Security and Nutrition was that through the proper use of fertilisers and of The Prime Minister: We have said that we want to use things such as exchanges, we can actually make sure the hard-won credibility we have, the low interest rates that smaller farmers become more sustainable, grow we have and the strong national balance sheet we have their yields and can not only feed their families, but to encourage that private sector investment. We have build a small business. made a series of important announcements about housing, including backing mortgages of up to 90% loan to Mr Speaker: Last, but not least, we must hear from value to try to get the housing market working again, the voice of West Worcestershire, Harriett Baldwin. because the housing market is not functioning. I would Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I was just say that if we look at America’s deficit reduction so pleased to hear the Prime Minister announce a day plans, we find that it actually has plans to reduce its for discussing global hunger during the Olympics. Does deficit faster than we do. he agree that the agenda should cover not just food security and food production, but the hidden crisis of Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Does malnutrition, which literally stunts the growth of so my right hon. Friend agree that the G8 decision to many children around the world? create the capital markets access initiative will help Arab spring countries to tap into international capital The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely markets, bringing them both stability and prosperity? right. It just seems to me that while we have the eyes of the world on Britain for the Olympics—and many African leaders will be coming to support their Olympic teams—we The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important have a good opportunity to bring people together to point. I think it is still a net bonus to the world that say, “Here we have a great initiative in the New Alliance there has been the Arab spring, and we need the wealthy for Food Security and Nutrition. Let’s take it to the countries of the world and the European Union to get next level. Let’s encourage more countries to join. Let’s behind it. One of the problems we face is that those make sure that we lift more people out of hunger and north African and Arab countries that have set themselves out of poverty.”But the point she makes about nutrition free were told in the past that they had experienced a is absolutely crucial for the future of the planet. free enterprise economy, whereas in fact they had really been having a sort of crony capitalism economy. We need Mr Speaker: I thank the Prime Minister and colleagues. 1159 23 MAY 2012 Public Appointees (Tax 1160 Arrangements) Public Appointees (Tax Arrangements) to IT specialists. The data also show that 70% of cases relate to arm’s length bodies. About 10% of the cases relate to payments made directly to a personal services 1.44 pm company. More than 85% relate to intermediaries such The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): as employment agencies, where it is not possible to As hon. Members are aware, in February I announced a know whether the individual is or is not using a personal review of the tax arrangements of public sector appointees. service company. The other 5% relate to the self-employed, I said that I would report back to the House on the who are therefore subject to self-assessment in the normal results of that review, which is what I would like to do in way. About 70% of all those in the identified cases are this statement today. As I said at the time to the House, paid more than £400 a day, and more than 70 cases cost there is absolutely no place for tax avoidance in government. Departments more than £1,000 a day. About 900 of the That is especially so at a time when money is tight and cases—approximately 40%—date back longer than two we all have to pay our fair share to help tackle the years. In fact, more than 20 cases date back more than deficit. 10 years, which some might consider an astonishing length of time to be on a contract. It is also worth As I told the House in February, senior civil servant noting that since January this year, more than 350 off-payroll appointments are audited against the Treasury’s “Managing contracts identified by this review have since ended. In Public Money” guidance. That document states that about 10% of those cases the individual remained with “public sector organisations should avoid using tax advisers or the Department but is now on the payroll. tax avoidance schemes as any apparent savings can only be made at the expense of other taxpayers or other parts of the public It is clear that off-payroll engagement without sufficient sector.” tax transparency has been endemic in the public sector That is why when questions were raised about the tax for too many years. It is a problem that built up and was arrangements for senior public service appointees, I presided over by the previous Government. Indeed, it is immediately put this review in place, and I would like to likely that under their watch many more thousands of thank the investigative journalists at ExaroNews for cases of off-payroll payment have come and gone, yet bringing the issue to our attention. no one said a word. The review looked at the extent of off-payroll The solution to the problem is not to turn a blind eye engagements in Government Departments and their or brush it under the carpet. We must bring an end to arm’s length bodies. With respect to the NHS, the the “don’t ask, don’t tell’ approach to the issue and it is review was limited to the boards of NHS organisations. clear that the tax arrangements for off-payroll employees None the less, the “Managing Public Money” guidance, in the public sector are not as transparent to the employer and the new principles that I will set out today, apply in as they should be. At the moment, contracts with off-payroll full to the NHS. The review could not include either employees do not give Departments the right to request local government or the BBC, which are not under detailed tax assurance from individuals; nor can HMRC direct control from central Government—it will be for provide that information due to taxpayer confidentiality. those organisations to justify their own off-payroll Even when off-payroll employees are in fact paying the arrangements, in the light of the unprecedented correct amount of income tax and national insurance, transparency we are showing today. Nor does it include the employer has no means of reassuring themselves devolved Administrations, and I hope they will now that that is the case. It is right that we should tackle that also follow the example we are setting. lack of transparency. Let me be clear to the House: the review published Today I can announce new tighter rules on off-payroll today did not seek to identify evidence of tax avoidance— appointments. First, the presumption is that in the that is the role of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. future the most senior staff must be put on the payroll. The review looked at off-payroll engagements, because Secondly, all Departments must put in place provisions the opaque nature of those engagements has created the that allow them to seek formal assurance that anyone conditions where tax avoidance could be taking place. paid a senior rate and employed off-payroll for more Let me also make it clear there are circumstances where than six months is meeting their income tax and national it may be necessary and appropriate for an employer to insurance obligations in full. If that reassurance is not appoint an individual off payroll—for instance, where provided when requested, Departments should terminate Departments need to employ specialists to carry out the contract. short-term roles when there is no available civil service Finally, these new tighter rules will be monitored expertise. That practice will continue. However, the carefully and any Department that does not comply will review has revealed the extensive and long-standing be fined up to five times the cost of the salary by the nature of off-payroll engagements in government. I can Treasury. In addition to those changes, we have shared tell the House that the review has identified more than all the detailed information from the review with HMRC, 2,400 off-payroll engagements in central Government which will be able to take any further action it decides is Departments and their arm’s length bodies that were necessary in individual cases. There will be no lengthy live on 31 January this year. That is an unacceptable transition period for the new rules, either. They will be number, given the lack of transparency on the tax implemented by September this year and will be applied arrangements of these contracts. to existing contracts too, subject to value for money. That lack of transparency cannot continue, so today Departments will report to Parliament on the outcome each Department involved is publishing on its website a as part of the 2012-13 annual report and accounts list of off-payroll appointees who, as of 31 January, process. were engaged at an annual cost to the Department of There is one further measure I want to announce more than £58,200. The majority of cases relate to today. Working through an intermediary provides an technical specialists; in fact, more than 40% relate specifically opportunity to minimise, or in some cases avoid completely, 1161 Public Appointees (Tax 23 MAY 2012 Public Appointees (Tax 1162 Arrangements) Arrangements) paying income tax and national insurance that would Secretary can answer today. First, on the question of otherwise be payable. We already have anti-avoidance the chief executive of the Student Loans Company, we legislation, commonly known as IR35. That rule ensures now know that he was appointed at a salary significantly that where there is in effect an employment relationship, higher than that of his predecessor and that he potentially if it was not for the interposition of a personal service avoided paying around £42,000 annually in tax, an company, the person concerned pays the appropriate amount almost twice the average public sector salary. amount of tax and national insurance. The rule is a Will the Chief Secretary tell us which members of the vital tool in tackling tax avoidance and helps to ensure Government agreed to the arrangement made with the that people pay the right amount of tax. chief executive of the Student Loans Company and Let us take as an example an individual earning which members of the Government were aware of the £120,000 a year. In that instance, there could be as arrangements before the matter came to the public much as a £23,000 difference between the amount of attention in February? Have changes been made to his tax and national insurance paid compared with that payment arrangements since then and can we be assured paid by somebody on the payroll. When IR35 was that he is now paying his full share of income tax and introduced 10 years ago, it was comparatively rare for national insurance? If not, when can we have that controlling persons of an organisation to work through assurance? If his contract has been altered, has there a personal service company. In the past few years, been any cost to the taxpayer in doing so? however, there have been high-profile reports of that The Government committed to publishing details of happening, so today the Government are also consulting all public servants paid more than £150,000, yet the on the Budget proposal that all so-called “controlling chief executive of the Student Loans Company was not persons”must by law be on the payroll of their organisation. on the list published in 2011 despite, as we know, This proposed tightening of the rules will apply to any earning £182,000 and despite the fact that his predecessor organisation, be it public or private. It is right that when was listed. Will the Chief Secretary explain why the an individual is in a position to control the major chief executive’s name was not on that list and can he activities of an organisation, they should be on the tell us if any other public servants paid more than payroll of that organisation. £150,000 have not been listed so far and whether they At a time of tight public finances, it is vital that will be listed in the 2012 publication? everyone pays their fair share. The changes I have Secondly, on the subject of the extent of the problem outlined today help to ensure that senior public staff and the scope of the review, will the Chief Secretary pay, and are seen to pay, their full and fair share of confirm how many such deals were signed off since income tax, and they demonstrate yet again the February, when the affairs of the chief executive of the Government’s determination to clamp down on all forms Student Loans Company came to light? Will he confirm of tax avoidance. I commend the statement to the House. that those individuals paid more than the Prime Minister will have been personally approved by the Chief Secretary? How many has he personally approved? If any did not 1.53 pm come to him for approval, can he explain why? Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I thank the Chief The review’s findings cover only people who earn Secretary for his statement and for providing advance more than £58,000, which is more than twice the average notice of it. We welcome this review of the pay and tax annual salary in this country. Will the Chief Secretary arrangements of senior public servants. tell us why his review excluded anyone on less than At a time when ordinary families and businesses are £58,000 a year, and if he will return to the House with bearing the brunt of the recession that this Government findings that include all such cases? In those cases have created and at a time when more than 700,000 jobs where a public servant was not being paid on payroll, in the public sector are being cut while ordinary public were the individuals concerned paying their proper service workers who keep our NHS, schools and police share of income tax or national insurance? What was services running have had their pay frozen and their the cost to the Exchequer of those arrangements? pension contributions increased, people will be shocked Despite the emphasis on transparency, the findings that more than 2,000 senior public servants, many earning presented today do not include local authorities, non- several times the average public sector wage, have been maintained schools, public broadcasting authorities or paid in a way that allows them to avoid paying their fair other publicly owned companies. Those areas account share of tax, and that 1,200 of these deals have been for a substantial portion of the public sector pay bill. done by the present Government in the past two years. When will the Chief Secretary come to the House with The vast majority of working people in this country figures that cover those areas? It is not enough for him have no choice over how or whether to pay the tax that merely to encourage the publication of that information they owe and they will feel that those who benefit from by others. the highest public sector salaries have a special responsibility The findings also do not cover publicly owned banks. to make their proper contribution to the funding of the I think that taxpayers who have paid to rescue those public services on which we all rely and to which they banks would expect those employed by the banks to be owe their generous salaries. We should all be clear that paying their tax at the appropriate rate. Will the Chief if the taxpayer is paying someone a living, particularly a Secretary conduct a review of the extent of such better living than the vast majority of taxpayers enjoy, arrangements in the publicly owned banks? that person has a duty to pay their fair share of tax and The findings also do not cover privatised or contracted- the Government have a duty to ensure that they do so. out services. Does the Chief Secretary think that those The statement is a valuable step towards greater earning large incomes from taxpayer-funded contracts transparency and accountability and we welcome that, should be expected to pay their proper share of tax, and but I have a number of questions that I hope the Chief what steps will he take to ensure that that is happening? 1163 Public Appointees (Tax 23 MAY 2012 Public Appointees (Tax 1164 Arrangements) Arrangements) [Rachel Reeves] The hon. Lady asked a few questions. With reference to the chief executive of the Student Loans Company, Thirdly, as regards what the Government will do as I said in answer to the urgent question from the right next, the Chief Secretary has told us that there will be a hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) new presumption that the most senior staff must be on in February, the individual concerned went on the payroll the payroll. How does he define “the most senior staff” straight away—that day. I announced that at the time of for those purposes? Will he give a clearer definition of that statement, which I think the hon. Lady responded the exceptional circumstances in which he will allow to. Of course, going on the payroll was the appropriate some public servants to continue receiving their salaries thing to do. As I made clear then, I had no knowledge off the public sector payroll? Will he give an undertaking of any tax benefit to an individual. As is the practice that those cases for which those exceptions have been with cases where those involved are earning more than made will be made public and that the exceptional the Prime Minister’s salary, the approval is given within the reasons for them will be given? Department. My role as Chief Secretary is to examine In future cases, will Departments be allowed to seek the salary level to make sure that it is consistent with the assurances about the tax affairs of public appointees pay restraint that we are properly putting in place with off-payroll arrangements, or will they be required across the public sector. to do so, as this morning’s news reports imply? If they This review looked at the salary level above £58,200 will not be required to do so, why not? Why not have because that is the minimum salary level in the senior that duty to seek such assurances? civil service, and it focused on senior public service Where these arrangements are disallowed for current appointments. These rules will be available for Departments or future appointees, can the Chief Secretary give us his to apply more generally, should they wish to do so. As I assurance that their salaries will not rise to compensate said in my statement, the review was not looking for them for the loss of net income that may result? Can the evidence of tax avoidance because individual tax Chief Secretary confirm that in accordance with previous arrangements are a matter of taxpayer confidentiality, commitments given on transparency and accountability, but all the results of the review from across Government all those covered by the review whose earnings exceed have been passed to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs £150,000 will be included in the Government’s annual so that they can investigate if they choose to do so. list of people earning more than this figure? I referred in my statement to organisations that are On the wider issue that the Chief Secretary mentioned— not within the control of central Government, such as how IR35 laws are used to avoid tax beyond the public local authorities, the BBC and so on, but I am sure the sector, which clearly needs to be addressed—can he many Labour councils around the country will have guarantee that HMRC will have sufficient resources to heard the shadow Chief Secretary’s remarks and will be monitor, manage and enforce the full payment of taxes bringing forward as a matter of urgency transparent at a time when it is being asked to absorb £2 billion-worth publication of all the arrangements in their local authorities. of cuts to its budget? I look forward very much to seeing that. In conclusion, the Government need to ensure value In relation to IR35, I should remind the House that for money for every pound of taxpayer money spent, in the spending review we provided an additional especially at a time of wage restraint for nurses, teachers £900 million to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and police, and huge cuts in the number of people specifically to focus on their work tackling tax evasion working in the public sector, so the Opposition welcome and tax avoidance. That will include resources to investigate the Chief Secretary’s commitment to rein in the avoidance cases caught out by the review or cases under IR35. The of tax, but I hope this will apply to all those who are hon. Lady will know that the Office of Tax Simplification paid by the taxpayer, and that there will be genuine looked at the operation of IR35 last year and we are transparency in pay and in any exceptions to the rules carrying forward some of its recommendations, but the set out today. proposal on which we are launching a consultation today—that controlling persons in organisations should, as a matter of course, be on the payroll—will strengthen Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the shadow Chief the IR35 regime, which I hope Members on both sides Secretary’s welcome for the steps that I announced of the House will welcome. today, though it was striking that in her response there was no reference at all to the fact that many of these Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I listened arrangements date back to the time of the previous carefully to my right hon. Friend’s statement, taking Government. About 40% of the cases identified began note of his comments regarding the BBC. A great work under the previous Government. number of my constituents pull their hair out at the If the hon. Lady wants to know more about why huge salaries paid to people at the BBC, only to see those arrangements came into place, she could ask her them invest them in companies outside to try to avoid Front-Bench colleagues if they were here. She could ask tax. Will the IR35 regime go some way towards trying the Leader of the Opposition, for example, as two cases to address the situation? date back to his time as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. She could ask the shadow Home Danny Alexander: The arrangements at the BBC are a Secretary, as nine cases date back to her time as Secretary matter for the BBC. I know that my right hon. Friend of State for Work and Pensions. She could ask the the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and shadow Health Secretary, as 45 cases date back to his Sport has drawn the review to the BBC’s attention, so it time as Secretary of State for Health. She could ask her is aware of the focus that the Government are placing colleague the shadow Chancellor, because at least 24 cases on the issue. IR35 potentially applies to any taxpayer in date back to his time as Secretary of State for Education. the relevant set of circumstances, whether that individual Yes, it is once again their mess and we are cleaning it up. works for the BBC or for any other organisation. 1165 Public Appointees (Tax 23 MAY 2012 Public Appointees (Tax 1166 Arrangements) Arrangements) Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab): I welcome the Chief Danny Alexander: I can assure my hon. Friend that Secretary’s statement and I join him in congratulating HMRC is completely blind as to whom any individual David Hencke on the work that he did in uncovering the works for. Taxpayer confidentiality is an essential part situation. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that of the way in which HMRC works and we are making he and his officials will co-operate with the investigation no changes whatever to that. We have passed the that my Committee will now undertake on his review? information that we discovered through the review to Will the Chief Secretary comment on the fact that HMRC. It will be for it to decide whether it wishes to HMRC authorised the payment to the Student Loan make any further inquiries. That will be a confidential Company’s chief executive under this arrangement? matter for it to pursue in its own right. This is not an What instructions has he given to HMRC to deal overall review of IR35; it is a particular consultation in differently with exceptions, which he is still allowing? relation to controlling persons of organisations. I am Scope matters. Although his review has looked at the certain that the point that he raised will be noted and senior civil service, it matters how people are paid, perhaps brought forward by him or others in responding whether they work in NHS trusts or for private companies to the consultation, which opens today. delivering public service funded through the taxpayer’s pound— Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): The Chief Secretary deserves credit for his handling of the issue since it came into the public domain. Like my Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret The right hon. Lady is not asking a series of questions. Hodge), I pay tribute to him and to the investigative This is a statement. I have given her considerable latitude, journalists, David Hencke and others, who first drew it given her seniority, but I think she has asked enough to our attention. It makes no difference whether those questions now. Perhaps she should leave some for other arrangements were agreed by Labour Ministers or Ministers Members who are rising. in the coalition; they are wrong and he is proceeding in the right way to put a stop to things. Can he tell the Danny Alexander: I am grateful to the right hon. House roughly the cost of unwinding the arrangements Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) for her questions. and whether that cost will fall on the individual Certainly, Treasury officials will co-operate with the Departments from within their existing allocations, or investigation which I gather her Committee will undertake whether some supplemental allocations will be needed? into these matters. I welcome that because, as I said in Can he also say when the Secretary of State for Business, my statement, it is important that the light of transparency Innovation and Skills first knew about the arrangements is shed on the issue as much as possible. I am sure that for the head of the Student Loans Company and what her Committee can play an incredibly valuable role in he did to bring them to an end? that, as it always does. I gather that the role of HMRC may be the subject of a soon-to-be-forthcoming report Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the right hon. from her Committee. No doubt that will speak for itself, Gentleman’s comments and for his role in bringing but of course the rules that I am putting in place today these matters to the House’s attention. I wholeheartedly and the rules that exist for managing public money agree that it makes no difference when the arrangements should be applied by all Departments in relation to started and which Minister was responsible; frankly, the public service appointments, and I made clear my view situation has grown up over a number of years and about the particular case that she referred to when I under Governments of different hues. It is right that we responded to the question from the right hon. Member are taking action to bring the situation under control for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown). and ensure proper transparency so that there is no I agree that scope matters. I should say in relation to perception of the potential for tax avoidance. He and I the NHS that although the review looked at board agree 100% on that. members in NHS organisations, because I wanted it to It is impossible to say at the moment what the costs, if be done quickly so that we could bring forward any, of unwinding the existing arrangements will be. Of recommendations and change the practices across the course, as I said in my statement, senior people must be public sector, its recommendations will apply across the brought on to the payroll, unless there are exceptional NHS and will need to be applied there in the same way short-term circumstances. For others, we need arrangements as in any other part of the public sector. in place that allow assurances to be given that the proper and full amount of tax is being paid, and that Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): will depend on the outcome of those processes with Will my right hon. Friend stress an important assurance individual members of staff. Of course, if there are which I think he made, that HMRC will continue to be costs to be borne, they will have to be borne from within blind as to whether they are dealing with somebody existing departmental allocations. If Departments do who works for the public sector or the private sector, not comply with those rules, there will be a fine of up to that all people will be treated equally by HMRC, and five times the salary involved, levied by the Treasury on that for the most part in his statement he was departmental allocations, which I hope will give speaking as an employer? In his review of IR35, will he Departments a strong incentive to comply with the take great care not to catch up with musicians, artists rules as quickly as possible. and others who are traditionally regarded as self-employed but may have controlling roles in organisations? It Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): My right hon. would be a great mistake if we made the cost of employing Friend and his colleagues have done some very important those people, particularly international people, much work in bringing these arrangements to light, but is it more expensive, to the detriment of the arts in this not the case that someone should be engaged in this way country. only in circumstances where there is a genuine short-term 1167 Public Appointees (Tax 23 MAY 2012 Public Appointees (Tax 1168 Arrangements) Arrangements) [Stephen Williams] contingent labour of various sorts. In 2010-11, thanks to the additional controls on consultancy that we put in shortage in government of a particular expertise or if place, we reduced that to £1 billion, and I expect the bill the individual genuinely has a wide portfolio of private to be reduced further in 2011-12. There are things that sector clients unrelated to other public sector work? Is central Government can do to reduce dramatically those not what is needed an emphatic statement from him costs across government, and that is precisely what the that these arrangements should be not commonplace, coalition Government are seeking to do. but truly exceptional? Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I thank the Chief Danny Alexander: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Secretary for his statement and commend him for the his comments and his welcome. He is right that the action he has taken since the scandal became apparent. arrangements should be exceptional and unusual, and If we are to believe that Revenue and Customs is now should apply only in particular cases, such as when boarding this Good Ship Lollipop, how will we know there is a short-term shortage, as he says, or a particular whether someone receiving amounts of money from the specialism is needed to deliver a project. That is why so public purse over £58,200 in future will not exempt many of these cases relate to IT professionals delivering themselves simply by ensuring that they accumulate it individual projects. There is an employee test under the from a number of Departments rather than one? The IR35 rules, which I am told is simple and straightforward, measures he has announced today relate to Departments and that should be sufficient for determining on which reporting amounts over £58,200 that they are paying to side of the line someone sits. individuals, but they do not seem to address the issue of people pocketing money from a number of contracts Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): It is now with different Departments. clear that some of the worst cases take place in local authorities such as North Tyneside. Can the Chief Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman asks an Secretary not do more to direct HMRC to not only deal interesting question, and he is right that someone might with these abuses, but seek redress? be earning small amounts of money from a number of Danny Alexander: I am interested to hear that there different Departments. Of course, in that case it is likely are particularly egregious offenders in North Tyneside to be a contractor, of the sort my hon. Friend the and am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing that Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) referred to the House’s attention. My right hon. Friend the to, who has multiple clients. It is not clear on the face of Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government it that these rules should apply in those cases, but I will has of course drawn this process to the attention of all certainly consider the sort of case that the hon. Gentleman local authorities precisely to get them to show a mentioned. transparency similar to that which we have shown with the review today, and I very much hope that they will all Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): As someone follow that example. It is for HMRC to decide whether who is not involved in a vendetta against the BBC, it wishes to investigate an individual case and whether unlike some Tory Back Benchers, I can tell the Chief there is a case to answer. As I have said, the existence of Secretary that, as a result of correspondence with the these arrangements does not in itself demonstrate that director-general of that organisation, I have been informed tax avoidance is taking place, because it is perfectly that there are just two full-time employees left at the possible for the arrangements to be in place and for the BBC, both very high-earners, on personal service contracts proper amount of tax to be paid. The problem is a lack and that that will end in July, which is certainly welcome. of transparency, so getting people to publish the information Why is it so difficult for the Treasury to close the so that HMRC can decide whether it wishes to investigate loophole, whether in the public or private sectors, so must be the right process to go through. that unless it is a genuine company there can be no way in which individuals pay less tax than they should be Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I welcome my paying? right hon. Friend’s statement. Everyone wants to see public servants paying their right and fair share of tax. I Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s respect the fact that he cannot investigate the tax affairs remarks about the BBC, which is useful information for of all the individuals concerned, given the scale of this the House to have before it. I say to him in all seriousness activity and the length of time it has been going on for, that the rules relating to this sort of case—the IR35 but what estimate has he made of the total loss that rules—were put in place by the previous Government, would be caused to the Exchequer if all these people and we are seeking to strengthen them through the used this legal means to avoid paying tax? consultation we have today. The coalition Government have done more than many previous Governments to Danny Alexander: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s take action on dealing with tax avoidance and evasion welcome for this work. I am sure that he would not wish across the board, because it is vital in a time of austerity Ministers to investigate the tax affairs of individuals, as that everyone pays their fair share, and that is what are that way would lie ruin for the country. I cannot make doing. Frankly, it is what the Government of whom he such an estimate for the reason behind my previous was a part did not do. comment: taxpayer affairs are confidential and it is for HMRC to deal with particular cases when it finds that Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I welcome avoidance is taking place. What I can say is that there is the Chief Secretary’s statement, but should we not a very large number of cases and that this relates to the apply the rules to all individuals receiving money from wider question of consultancy and contingent labour in the public purse, rather than allowing the BBC, local government. He might be interested to know that in authorities and others off the hook? I fear that, unless 2009-10 the previous Government spent £2.4 billion on they are forced to take this action on transparency, all 1169 Public Appointees (Tax 23 MAY 2012 Public Appointees (Tax 1170 Arrangements) Arrangements) sorts of obstacles will be put up. I know from a clue what is going on across Departments, but the correspondence with the BBC in Northern Ireland that action that he has announced today will affect no more it has not been as transparent there as it has been than a tiny percentage of the abuse taking place throughout elsewhere. In fact, it has stonewalled and refused completely the public sector. He needs to do more than write letters to give information to me as a Member of Parliament, to the NHS and to local government. One so-called so I urge him to go further and force organisations such consultant, Mr Nick Johnson, has received £1 million as the BBC into transparency. from Hammersmith and Fulham council in the five years since he retired on an ill-health pension of £60,000 Danny Alexander: The new Treasury rules that I have a year from another local authority. On the Chief announced today apply only to organisations under Secretary to the Treasury’s figures, Mr Johnson would central Government control. That is how the rules have avoided £200,000 in tax, so when is the right hon. work, but I encourage the right hon. Gentleman and Gentleman going to act on such abuse? other hon. Members who have made the point about local authorities to continue their campaigning in order Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman refers to the to ensure that those organisations do reveal such national health service, and I was very clear in my information. He did not refer to the Northern Ireland statement and in my response to the right hon. Member Assembly Government, but he may very well want to for Barking (Margaret Hodge), the Chair of the Public take steps to ensure that that organisation also brings Accounts Committee, that the rules apply throughout forward the appropriate degree of transparency about the national health service and, indeed, to academy its arrangements, too. schools. I do not control the finances of local authorities, but I can make it very clear that I want to see them go Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Chief through a similar process, and I am sure that campaigning Secretary to the Treasury is right to admit that without local MPs such as the hon. Gentleman will not rest until the work of Exaro and “Newsnight” he would not have their local authorities do so. 1171 23 MAY 2012 1172

Point of Order Electoral Registration and Administration Bill 2.21 pm [Relevant documents: The Tenth Report from the Political Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): On a and Constitutional Reform Committee, Session 2010-12, point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It became on Individual Electoral Registration and Electoral public over the weekend that the Prime Minister and Administration, HC 1463, and the Government’s response, several Cabinet members are to be coached by lawyers Cm 8245.] at a cost of £1 million before they give evidence to the Second Reading Leveson inquiry. Given that some of us thought the whole point of the inquiry was to get at the unvarnished Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Mr Speaker truth about the unhealthy relationship between some has selected for today’s debate the amendment, which politicians and the media, should not a Minister come will be moved in accordance with normal procedure. forward to explain who is training whom, why it is necessary and who on earth is paying for that excess? 2.23 pm Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): That is The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark not a point of order for the Chair with regard to the Harper): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a conduct of business, but the right hon. Gentleman is a Second time. very experienced Member, and I am sure that he will go The Electoral Registration and Administration Bill to the Table Office and explain the information that he will tackle electoral fraud by speeding up the introduction seeks. Perhaps the office will advise him on how he of individual electoral registration—that is, requiring might pursue it, but it is not for today in the Chamber. electors to register individually rather than by households. In doing so, we will move towards a system in which BILL PRESENTED individuals have to provide information to enable their application to be verified. That will modernise our ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY REFORM BILL electoral registration system, facilitate the move to online registration and make it more convenient for people to Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) register to vote. We want to tackle electoral fraud, Secretary Vince Cable, supported by the Prime Minister, increase the number of people registered to vote and the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the improve the integrity of the electoral register. Exchequer, Secretary Theresa May and Norman Lamb presented a Bill to make provision about the UK Green Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): This is a Investment Bank; to make provision about employment very early intervention, but 23,388 of our fellow citizens law; to establish and make provision about the Competition living abroad are entitled to vote, while 1,147,401 French and Markets Authority and to abolish the Competition citizens will be voting in the French parliamentary Commission and the Office of Fair Trading; to amend elections next month. Why do we deny that core citizenship the Competition Act 1998 and the Enterprise Act 2002; right to so many of our fellow citizens simply because to make provision for the reduction of legislative burdens; they do not live within the UK? I am not sure that the to make provision about copyright and rights in situation is within the purview of the Bill, but it represents performances; to make provision about payments to a shameful denial when other countries are so much company directors; and for connected purposes. better than we are. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 7) with explanatory Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman makes an notes (Bill 7-EN). interesting point. There are about 5 million British citizens overseas, and there is a debate to be had about the length of time—currently 15 years—that one should remain entitled to vote. Of the 5 million citizens overseas, only 30,000 or so are registered to vote, and for those who have been overseas for less than 15 years there is no bar at all on voting. There are questions to be asked of all of us about why those people do not feel the urge to register and to cast their vote in our elections, but in part 2 of the Bill, which I shall come on to later, we are going to lengthen the period of a general election campaign, making it more practical for overseas voters to receive and to cast a postal vote so that it counts in an election. I hope that that will be helpful.

Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I am grateful to the Minister for giving way so early in our deliberations. The point about overseas electors bears a great deal of exploration. If they are not going to participate, alongside citizens who are still resident, in the democratic process and in our constituency-based system, will more information be provided to political parties and to independent 1173 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1174 Administration Bill Administration Bill candidates about how to contact overseas electors? The One of the main points in the reasoned amendment information that has been on the electoral register up that I will not cover later in my speech is the assertion until now would not allow for much discussion or that there was cross-party support for the Political interaction with them. Parties and Elections Act 2009. As I said in January’s Opposition day debate, it is true that we supported the Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good proposals in the Act for individual registration, but it is point—to which we might return in Committee, given worth reminding the House that the previous Government that I have not got very far with my speech and want to had to be dragged kicking and screaming to include make a little progress before I take any more interventions. them. They were not in the Bill when it was introduced in this House, and that is why we voted for a reasoned As I was saying to the right hon. Member for Rotherham amendment. In fact, they were not in the Bill when it (Mr MacShane), part 2 also contains provisions to left the House of Commons, although by that stage the improve the administration and conduct of elections, Labour Government had made a commitment to include thereby serving to increase voter participation and to them. They were, however, introduced in the other make a number of improvements to the running of place. My right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham elections. (Mr Maude), now Minister for the Cabinet Office and Before I explain the rationale behind our proposals, I Paymaster General, who led for us on the issue, ably shall deal briefly with the Opposition’s reasoned amendment assisted by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping and approach. Forest (Mrs Laing), said: “I am glad that at the eleventh hour the Government have, at last, agreed to move ahead with individual voter registration, Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): Before albeit in what still seems to be a lamentably leisurely time scale. the Minister turns to the burden of his argument, may I They committed to the principle of individual voter registration congratulate him on how he has involved the Select many years ago, but a bit like St. Augustine, they seem to be Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform and saying, ‘Make me chaste, but not yet.’”—[Official Report, 2 March the House in the deliberations on the Bill? It is an 2009; Vol. 488, c. 695.] exemplar of good practice, but he will see from the My right hon. Friend made it clear that we approved of reasoned amendment that there is still some way to go. the decision to proceed with individual registration, May I also put on his agenda the question of fines for which we thought could be accomplished earlier. We people who do not register? They will be introduced said that it would be our intention to do so, and on under secondary legislation, so at the moment we have page 47 of our 2010 manifesto we made a commitment no idea whether an effective and proportionate fine will to be available. Will he address that in his remarks? “swiftly implement individual voter registration”. It is not fair and right, or at least it leaves out something Mr Harper: I am grateful to the Committee’s Chairman quite important, to say that there was complete cross-party for what he says, and I hope that by the time I finish my consensus on that measure. remarks the House will see that I have addressed Before I set out the Bill’s provisions in detail, let me satisfactorily all the points in the reasoned amendment, explain the rationale on how we got to this stage at which stage I will of course urge Members on both following the draft proposals and the significant amount sides of the House to support the Bill’s Second Reading. of pre-legislative scrutiny that has taken place. The We debated this subject on an Opposition day in move to individual registration was supported by all January during which I welcomed the tone that the three main parties in the previous Parliament and was right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) adopted. in each of their manifestos. It is supported by the He said, for example, that he welcomed the process that Electoral Commission and the Association of Electoral the Government had adopted and how we were acting; Administrators and has been called for by a wide range of he noted that we had had a draft Bill and a White Paper international observers. We remain one of the few countries with pre-legislative scrutiny; and he noted that the in the world to rely on a system of household registration. Deputy Prime Minister and I had said that we would I believe, as I am sure many Members do, that a system not just listen to concerns, but act on them and make that relies on the rather old-fashioned notion of the changes accordingly. head of household, whereby just one person in the house is given the responsibility of dealing with everyone At the time I noted that that was a shift from last else’s registration to vote, is out of date. It does not autumn, when the right hon. Gentleman’s party leader engender any personal responsibility for being registered said, in response to our making registration individual or promote a person’s ownership of their own vote, and rather than household, that the Labour party was going it could give that one person the ability to disfranchise to go out and fight against the change, and when the others. That is not the approach that we adopt in other shadow Deputy Prime Minister, the right hon. and areas where people engage with the state. learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), said that our proposals were Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): “a shameful assault on people’s democratic rights.” I welcome what my hon. Friend is endeavouring to do I thought that that was nonsense when she said it. In in this Bill, particularly his determination to modernise January, the right hon. Member for Tooting appeared our system and to get more people registered to vote. to think so, too, and he adopted a sensible tone that was Does he share my concern that many people are on the welcomed not just by me, but by Members on both sides register who should not be, and, in particular, that of the House, so I am disappointed that in tabling this people who do not have leave to remain in the country reasoned amendment he appears to have reverted to the are participating in voting? Will that also change under Labour party’s original approach. his system? 1175 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1176 Administration Bill Administration Bill Mr Harper: My hon. Friend is right. There are two Ms Buck rose— aspects to what we are doing. We want to make sure that the register is more complete and that people who Mr Harper: I will take one more intervention before I are eligible to vote are on it, but it is equally important make some progress. Ladies first. to make sure that those who are not eligible to vote are not on it. I hope that he will be reassured about that as I Ms Buck: Does the Minister agree that this is an issue set out some of the details. On his specific point, there of proportionality? At the moment, approximately 6 million will be changes to make it clearer for people to identify people are not on the electoral register. Does he recognise when they are a Commonwealth citizen and what their that the main issue of concern is not spread across the immigration status is. We will be piloting some work country as a whole but targeted in particular areas and with the UK Border Agency to see whether we can on particular communities, particularly frequent movers? create a systemic process to check people’s leave to We already know that only one in six of the population remain so that only those who are entitled to be here are who moves frequently is likely to be on the electoral able to vote here. That will be a welcome step forward. register. Does that not reinforce the need for targeted investment to support individual registration, because Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Will the otherwise it will be people in inner cities and in the Minister give way? private rented sector who lose out in not finding themselves on the electoral register? Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab) rose— Mr Harper: The hon. Lady makes a good point. As Mr Harper: Oh, I have a choice. I give way to the she says, the single piece of information that suggests right hon. Gentleman. whether someone is on the electoral register is frequency of movement. We recognise that, and several of the Mr Dodds: The Minister said that the United Kingdom steps that we are taking with stakeholders are intended is one of the few countries that does not have individual to work out how we can better deal with it. I will set out registration. Of course, we have had that in Northern later how we propose to fund this and ensure that the Ireland for some 10 years. I think it has been a success, money reaches local authorities, and if the hon. Lady and I therefore warmly welcome his proposals. However, thinks that I still have not dealt with the issue, I will take it has led to a drop in the number of people registered, another intervention from her. partly for the reasons that he outlined—for example, because some people should not be on the register in the Chris Ruane rose— first place. Will he take on board the lesson that we learned in Northern Ireland, which was that resources Mr Harper: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I needed to put into the Electoral Office to ensure that am going to make some progress, and will perhaps take young people, in particular, got signed up to the register? an intervention from him later. Otherwise I will not get Mr Harper: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s through my speech, and many other Members wish to comments. I should have said that the Bill implements contribute to the debate. these measures in Great Britain rather than in the It is clear that the current system of registration is United Kingdom. We have learned a great deal in unacceptably open to electoral fraud. There is widespread Northern Ireland, for example on implementing a carry- concern about that; indeed, a survey carried out at the forward provision to reduce the risk of a significant end of last year found that 36% of people believe that it drop-off. Interestingly, the research that we commissioned is a problem. If citizens do not have confidence in the from the Electoral Commission, which was published integrity of our electoral register, they will not have last year, demonstrated that although we in this country confidence in the integrity of the outcome of elections. have had the rather complacent attitude that we did not We need to tackle that. When we came into office, we really have a problem, under the individual registration did not think that the plans for which Labour had system in Northern Ireland, the proportion of eligible legislated, which involved a voluntary process initially voters registered to vote is about the same as it is in the running in parallel, were the best way to tackle the rest of Great Britain. We therefore have a lot to learn. problem. We thought that it would lead to confusion and have a very significant cost. That is why we want to Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab) rose— speed up the introduction of individual registration so that the register published after the 2015 annual canvass Mr Harper: May I first finish responding to the right will consist entirely of entries that have been individually hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds)? verified, with the sole exception of some of those in the On the right hon. Gentleman’s second point about armed forces. young people, I had an opportunity to visit Grosvenor The Electoral Commission supports that position. At grammar school in Belfast to see an example of what, in the beginning of the month, Jenny Watson, chair of the engaging with people individually, the Electoral Office commission, said, when commenting on alleged fraud does with young people in schools. The interesting in the recent London mayoral elections: thing, and another lesson for us, is that a larger proportion “The Electoral Commission wants to see our registration of 16 and 17-year-olds are registered to vote in Northern system tightened up and it’s good that the Government plans to Ireland than in Great Britain. As well as making sure introduce new laws to do this which will apply to any of us who that we deal with the potential risks, we have an opportunity want to vote by post before the 2015 General Election.” to do a better job in getting younger people and disabled people, for example, registered to vote. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Did the Electoral Commission find any fraudulent activity Chris Ruane rose— in the London mayoral election? 1177 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1178 Administration Bill Administration Bill Mr Harper: There have been a number of cases Mr Harper: I sincerely hope that it will be no lower of fraud, although admittedly not many proven than the population that is registered today, and indeed cases. An international observer body, the Office for that it will be higher. One of the interesting things that Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, which is we learned from the information that was published last part of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation year was that the number of people who were registered in Europe, described the voter registration system in was not as high as we had hoped. That research, which Great Britain as the Electoral Commission carried out last year, will act “the weakest link of the electoral process due to the absence of as a baseline for the process. I have made a commitment safeguards against fictitious registrations.” to get the Electoral Commission to carry out the same It recommended: research after the process, so that people can see how successful it has been. We want the process to be transparent “Consideration should be given to introducing an identification requirement for voters when applying for registration as a safeguard and we have nothing to hide. against fraudulent registration.” That is very important. As I said, 36% of the public Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I think that our electoral registration system is vulnerable take the Minister’s point about two thirds being the to fraud, and that is clearly a problem. anticipated carry-over to the new register. However, I understand from reading the information from the Electoral Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I welcome this Commission that voters who are on the register and proposal, because during the recent elections in Burnley who do not reply to the request for individual electoral there were reports of wholesale fraud taking place on registration will still be able to vote in the general an industrial scale in terms of personation and fake election of 2015. Is that correct? postal votes. Is the Minister considering proposals to require photo identification when people turn up to Mr Harper: Yes, that is correct. I referred to that vote to cut out the appalling growth in personation that point in response to the right hon. Member for Belfast is taking place in some polling stations? [Interruption.] North, when I spoke about the carry-forward. There is the important safeguard that if people fail to register to Mr Harper: That point has been raised with me. At vote individually and there is no reason to think that the moment, I do not think that striking the balance they are not eligible to vote, there is a carry-forward between making sure that people who are eligible to process to stop the drop-off that we saw in Northern vote can vote and preventing those who are not eligible Ireland when it moved to a new system. from doing so requires voter ID at polling stations. I heard several Labour Members shout out that that was Several hon. Members rose— an illiberal proposition, which is rich coming from people who thought that having compulsory ID cards Mr Harper: If hon. Members will forgive me, if I am was a good idea. This Government legislated to get rid to take interventions, I need at least to answer the of ID cards, and we do not mean to bring them in via questions that people have asked before I take another the back door. one. I need to balance taking interventions with making Last June, we published a White Paper and draft some progress, or I will be chastised by Madam Deputy legislation setting out our proposals. We proposed that Speaker. in 2014, every elector on the register would be invited to make a new application providing personal information Hon. Members: There are six hours. that would be verified by comparing it to data held by the Department for Work and Pensions, to ensure that the applicant was a genuine person. Every elector would Mr Harper: There are, but I do not think that Members have to make a new application and anyone who did would be very pleased if I took all of them to speak not, or whose application was unsuccessful, would be from the Front Bench. Other Members want to participate removed from the register published after the 2015 in the debate. annual canvass. I will finish answering the question from my hon. We held an extensive public consultation on those Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West proposals, which had more than 900 responses. As its (Paul Uppal). If the check with the DWP database, the Chairman said, the Political and Constitutional Reform data matching or other information suggests to the Committee carried out pre-legislative scrutiny, and there electoral registration officers that a person is not eligible have been a number of debates and questions on the to vote, because they are not a real person or because matter in both Houses. they do not live at the given address, of course they will Members may have noted that earlier today, to assist remove them from the register. This is about carrying the House in its consideration of the Bill, my right hon. forward people when there is no information to suggest Friend the Leader of the House announced in a written that they are not eligible, and they simply have not ministerial statement that the Bill will be part of a pilot registered. We thought, on balance, that it was better to for explanatory statements on amendments. I hope that do the carry-forward to avoid the problem that occurred all hon. Members who plan to table amendments will when individual registration was implemented in Northern participate in that pilot, as will the Government. Ireland. The consultation suggests that we have got that balance right. Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): What percentage of the eligible UK population does the Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab) rose— Minister believe will be registered after 2015 under his plans? Chris Ruane rose— 1179 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1180 Administration Bill Administration Bill Mr Harper: Let me make a little more progress, then I Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I thank the Minister will take more interventions. for giving way. In the further pilots, will the Department Although there was widespread support for the principle use credit reference agencies such as Experian to see of individual registration, concerns were raised about whether that boosts electoral registration? how our initial proposals might affect the completeness of the register. We have listened to those points and Mr Harper: We will carry out two sets of data-matching have made four significant changes to the initial proposals. pilots. The first set, for which the orders have been laid Those changes are included in the Bill and we are before the House, although not yet debated and approved, confident that they will safeguard the completeness of involves the DWP specifically because it will pilot the the register as we move to the new system. pre-confirmation process. The second set, for which we The first major change is that the Bill enables us to have not yet laid the orders, will use other Departments. delay the timing of an annual canvass. There were We have had conversations with private sector agencies. concerns that in the initial proposals the gap between One problem is that there is some circularity in the the last canvass under the old system and the start of process, because one way in which they construct their the transition to individual registration was too long. It databases is by using the electoral register. It is therefore was thought to be preferable to carry out a full canvass arguable how much information we would learn from in 2014, before sending electors individual invitations to them. However, we have had conversations with them register. We do not want to have an extra canvass, as and we will continue to do so. that would be costly and confusing, but we intend to use this power to move the last canvass under the current Chris Ruane rose— system from autumn 2013 to spring 2014, so that the register is as up to date as possible before the transition Mr Betts rose— to the new system. Mr Harper: Go on then; I give way to the hon. Ms Buck: Will the Minister give way? Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane)

Mr Harper: I have already allowed one intervention Chris Ruane: I thank the Minister very much for from the hon. Lady. Let me make some progress and I giving way. will take more interventions in a moment. On the private sector’s knowledge of electoral registration, The second major change in the Bill will enable us to two and a half years ago, I was informed by Experian require electoral registration officers, instead of inviting that 6.5 million people were missing from the register. everyone on their register to make a new application, to When I raised that with the Electoral Commission, it begin the transition by matching the names and addresses said that the figure was 3.5 million. Six months ago, the of every elector already on the register against the Electoral Commission said that, having done its research, DWP’s customer information system. Where the name the figure was 6 million. The private sector has excellent and address match, and the ERO therefore has confidence databases, which we should be utilising to maximise that a genuine person lives at the address that they say registration. they live at, that person will be confirmed on the register and retained. They will be informed that they Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman has made that point do not have to make an individual application to register. before. As I said to the hon. Member for Blaenau That means that we can balance the integrity of the Gwent (Nick Smith), we are not closing off that option register with not insisting that every voter takes action and we will continue to have conversations with those in the first transition. organisations. Evidence from the data-matching pilots that we carried out last year suggests, as my hon. Friend the Member Following the 2015 general election, there will be for Wolverhampton South West mentioned, that the another full household canvass and all potential electors details of about two thirds of electors can be verified in who appear— that way. Today, I will place in the House of Commons Library the evaluations of the data-matching pilot by Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): the Electoral Commission and my Department. Subject Will the Minister give way on that point? to parliamentary approval, we plan to run further data- matching pilots later this year to refine that method. Mr Harper: If the hon. Lady lets me make the point on the canvass, I will then take her intervention. When an individual’s information cannot be verified, the electoral registration officer will invite them to All potential electors who appear on the returned register individually. They will be asked to make a new canvass form but have not been verified individually application and to provide their national insurance will be invited by electoral registration officers to register. number and date of birth. As we set out last year, there That canvass will include reminders and the extensive will be reminders and the extensive use of door-to-door use of door-to-door canvassers. At the end of the canvassing, as there is now, to encourage applications. canvass, the EROs will— If a person does not make a successful individual application, they will still be able to vote in the 2015 Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Will the Minister general election, as my hon. Friend said. However, any give way? individual who wants to use an absent vote, where the risk is higher, will have to make a successful new application Mr Harper: No; let me finish this point, then I will or to have been confirmed and retained on the register. take the intervention from the hon. Member for Mitcham That will ensure that people have greater confidence in and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), who got her bid in the integrity of that election. first. 1181 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1182 Administration Bill Administration Bill At the end of the canvass, the EROs will send personally Mr Harper: The two thirds of voters whose details addressed individual electoral registration application are confirmed automatically will be moved over to the forms to individuals who appeared on the electoral new register once their information has been verified. If register produced at the end of the old-style canvass, they are absent voters, their absent vote will automatically who have not been verified individually and whom be carried forward as well. [Interruption.] That is what electoral registration officers do not believe to have will happen. Absent voters whose details are confirmed moved. That will act as a final check to ensure that and who are moved on to the register will be able to use individuals who are to be removed from the register their absent vote. However, people whose information understand what will happen if they do not make an has not been verified and who do not make an individual individual application. That will be a robust process, application will not be able to have an absent vote. Of because people will have to go out of their way to avoid course, local authorities know who those people are, being registered. The register that will be used for the and we are working with them and with the Electoral 2015 boundary review will therefore be robust, complete Commission to ensure that everyone with an absent and accurate. The relevant part of the Opposition’s vote is contacted so that they know that if they want to reasoned amendment does not hold up at all. continue having an absent vote they need to register individually. We are confident that local authorities will Siobhain McDonagh: Under clause 4, the procedure do that. In a moment, I will set out how we will ensure for the canvass will change. At the moment, if the ERO that local authorities get the funding needed to ensure or their canvasser knocks on a door and finds somebody that that takes place. who is not registered, they fill the form in there and The third major change that we have made is removing then. Clause 4 states that that can no longer happen, the opt-out provision from the Bill. The original intention and that the canvasser can only take people’s names and was very simple: to enable EROs to focus their resources addresses and then send a form to them. Surely the on people who wanted to register to vote, rather than point is that canvassers knock on doors because people having to keep chasing individuals who had no intention have not filled in their forms without assistance. of registering. However, we have listened to the arguments Mr Harper: Canvassers will be able to identify that made by Members of the House, the Electoral Commission there are voters at an address, but each voter will have and the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. to register individually and provide their information to We want the maximum number of eligible people to be the local authority so that it can be verified. We will registered to vote, so we have decided to remove that examine the canvass process when we develop the secondary provision. legislation. Because of the nature of the information The final major change we have made to our proposals being collected on the doorstep—not just people’s names is that we will enable electoral registration officers to and addresses but their national insurance numbers—we issue a civil penalty when an individual who has been need to take data security carefully, as we have at every required to make an application fails to do so. Over the step of the way. We will continue to have discussions past few months, there have been discussions about with local authorities and the Information Commissioner whether an offence should be attached to an individual about how best we can do that, but we have a robust set form. At the moment, it is not an offence not to be of processes in place to ensure that everyone is registered. registered, which will not change, but there is a criminal offence of not returning the household canvass form. Mr Betts rose— That, too, will remain, because by not doing so somebody Mark Tami rose— can disfranchise other people. We were faced with the question whether we should Mr Harper: Let me make a bit more progress, then I create a new criminal offence to be applied to the will give way to the hon. Member for Sheffield South individual application form. We did not think it appropriate East (Mr Betts), who has been bidding to get in for to criminalise people who simply did not register to some time. vote. After careful consideration with key stakeholders, The use of data matching to confirm existing electors and after listening to Members, we believe it is appropriate will simplify the transition process for most people in to create a civil penalty—akin to a parking fine—for the country. It will create a floor below which registration individuals who, after being required to make an application rates cannot fall, and importantly it will allow registration by a certain date, fail to do so. officers to focus their efforts and resources on electors whose details cannot be confirmed and eligible people Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) who are not on the register. (LD): The Minister will know that I am very pleased by that announcement, for which I have lobbied. I am Mr Betts: The Minister said that there would not be grateful for the Bill and the changes the Government transitional arrangements for people who have a postal have made to it. vote. Does he understand that people who have applied To maximise the number of people registered and get for a postal vote in the past now assume that they are people to understand the penalty if they do not respond, going to get one at every election? There could be a real will the Minister ensure that local authorities, social problem with the Government’s proposals, because, in landlords, schools, colleges, sixth forms, the high 2015, people who assume that they are going to get a commissions of Commonwealth countries and the Irish postal vote will not get one as the lists will have been embassy play their full part in getting the system known scrapped. That could have an adverse affect on turnout, among those with whom they regularly deal? because postal voters are more likely to vote, and it could effectively discriminate against the elderly and Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very people with disabilities, who are proportionately more good point, and he has indeed been greatly involved in likely to have a postal vote. making points on the matter in the House, for which I 1183 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1184 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mr Harper] Mark Tami: Will the Minister give way? am grateful. In his constituency there is significant Mr Harper: Not at this point. voter turnover each year, which presents challenges to I shall set out how we intend to fund the transition to his local registration officer. We are already working individual registration. We have allocated £108 million with groups that represent some of the categories that over the spending review period to do so, including by he mentions, but he also mentions a couple that we had meeting local authorities’ costs over and above the not previously considered, such as high commissions. current cost of electoral registration. I can confirm We will certainly bear them in mind, and I will discuss today—this is new information—that we will fund local the matter with my officials. authorities in England and Wales directly through grants Mark Tami: Will the Minister give way? under section 31 of the Local Government Act 2003. Those will be allocated grants for the purpose of paying Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Will my for the transition, not just money buried in the revenue hon. Friend give way? support grant. In Scotland, electoral registration is carried out for the most part by EROs who, barring two Mr Harper: I will finish my point about the civil exceptions, in the city of Dundee and in Fife, are penalty, then I will take an intervention from my hon. independent of each local authority. There, the additional Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson). costs of implementing the new system will be paid The Bill provides that after a registration officer has directly to them. followed any specified steps and an individual has not made an application, he can require them to do so. If at Mark Tami: The Parliamentary Secretary talked a lot that stage they fail to do so, he can impose a civil about the canvass. Does he accept that the quality of penalty. The intention is that only those who refuse the canvass is important, and that some local authorities repeatedly can be fined. We do not think it would be are much better than others? I welcome his comments particularly helpful to democracy if we fined hundreds on the extra money, but will he ensure that it will be of thousands of people, so we expect the number of spent on that and not just ferreted away somewhere fines levied to be similar to the number of prosecutions else? at present. Nor do we want to create a financial incentive for local authorities to use fines as a revenue-raising Mr Harper: Local authorities will have legal obligations measure, so any moneys collected—[Interruption.] I to deliver those measures, and I will consult them over hear one of my hon. Friends chuckling, but one or two the summer about the precise details of the timing of local authorities have been known to do such things, so and approach to grant allocations so that they get the any moneys collected will be paid back to the Exchequer money to pay for transition when they need it, and through the Consolidated Fund. ensure that there is clear accountability, showing that Mr Jackson: I agree with the compromises that my they are taking the steps required by law to prepare for hon. Friend has made on the opt-out and the civil the transition to the new system. penalty. I am sure he agrees that people’s propensity to register for elections is a function of societal change as Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): The Parliamentary much as anything else. The Electoral Commission has Secretary makes an important point, but will he give a stated: commitment to the House now that the money will be “Recent social, economic and political changes appear to have ring-fenced? resulted in a declining motivation to register to vote among specific social groups.” Mr Harper: Section 31 grants are specific grants, and That is associated with the hon. Gentleman needs to be aware of an interesting “changes in the approach to the annual canvass…as well as point: local authorities already fund about one third of matters of individual choice and circumstances (such as a decline the cost of electoral reform, so if we insisted on a in interest in politics).” specific amount being spent on electoral registration, it Surely we need to concede that some people do not would be easy for local authorities that wanted to do so want to register because they are not interested in the to evade that. They could use the money that we gave process. them to pay for their business-as-usual electoral registration and not do any of the things that we want them to do. Mr Harper: We do. The main impact on an individual We will give them money directly; we will consult about who does not register to vote is the rather obvious one is the mechanism so that we have some accountability; we that they lose their opportunity to vote and have their will recognise that some local authorities have bigger say in how their country is governed, but there are also challenges than others so that all the money is not some public policy reasons why we want people to dished out in the first place—we want local authorities register to vote. One reason is to ensure that there is a that face the biggest challenges to be able to bid for complete register for the purpose of boundary changes, extra funding—and we will try to ensure that we have a and another is that the electoral register is used as the workable system that is not too bureaucratic. I am pool for jury service. We therefore want to ensure that it confident that local authorities and electoral registration is as accurate as possible. officers will welcome our announcement about not My hon. Friend is right that is up to Members and to allowing the money to be swallowed up in the overall people involved in politics of all descriptions to motivate revenue support grant by paying direct grants under people to register to vote and then use their vote. The section 31 of the Local Government Act 2003. They use of the vote will, of course, remain sanction-free. It will have the confidence that they have the money to will be entirely up to people whether they use their vote. deliver the programme. 1185 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1186 Administration Bill Administration Bill We consulted widely on our proposals for individual means of taking part in that system. There is some registration, which have undergone pre-legislative scrutiny. difficulty in that people do not readily have access to We have worked closely with the Electoral Commission, their national insurance numbers. What suggestions has the Association of Electoral Administrators and groups he for improving that? of front-line staff on our plans. We will begin publishing draft secondary legislation for IER in June, and we will Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I continue to add to the package as the summer progresses, know that the Parliamentary Secretary is trying to be aiming to conclude publication before Parliament returns extremely helpful to the House, and he has taken lots of in the autumn. We will talk to those key groups about interventions. However, perhaps he will bear it in mind the detail of the proposals as we go along. that he has been speaking for more than 40 minutes, There will be some matters for which we do not that many Members wish to participate in the debate, intend to publish draft legislation—for example, those and that there will be winding-up speeches. for which we have no current plans to use the powers. Mr Harper: I am very grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. There will be other matters on which we want to seek I predicted when I was being perhaps excessively generous stakeholders’ views about the approach. In the amendment, that I would be taken to task at some point, and that Labour Members deplore our not publishing secondary has happened. legislation and it is therefore worth saying that, for two similar measures—the Electoral Administration Act 2006 Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. In that case, it is a and the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009, both of shame that the Parliamentary Secretary did not take his which contain significant powers to be made by own advice. regulation—no secondary legislation of any description was published at any stage during their passage. It was Mr Harper: I know that one of my faults is that I am all made and published after the Bills had received generous to a fault, and I will do my best to rein in that Royal Assent. On that issue, therefore, the Labour party generosity. I will respond to the hon. Member for is very much in the mode of “Do as we say, not as Ceredigion (Mr Williams) and then I will finish my we do.” speech without taking further interventions. I am grateful The Government’s approach is to treat the House for your direction, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am much more seriously, to publish Bills in draft, to carry sure that other hon. Members will realise that I am out pre-legislative scrutiny, and to publish draft legislation simply following wise advice rather than being ungenerous. while the measure is still going through the House. May The hon. Gentleman made a good point about national I pick up the point that the Chairman of the Political insurance numbers. We have done quite a lot of work on and Constitutional Reform Committee made? Members that. The vast majority of members of the public have can see what is proposed while the Bill is undergoing its ready access to their national insurance numbers. When parliamentary passage. I will take no lectures on that polled, 95% of people did not feel that it would be a from anyone on the Labour Benches. problem. Of course, we will ensure that, on the online So far, I have discussed the measures that we are system, as on the paper-based system, we give people taking to mitigate the risk of the transition to the new advice if they do not have a national insurance number system. There are also several opportunities to do better. about the process that they have to follow to get one. The Bill will facilitate online registration, whereby an There will be an alternative mechanism for the small individual will complete the end-to-end process without number of people who do not have a national insurance having to fill in a paper form. That will make it more number to demonstrate their identity to the ERO. However, convenient for individuals to register to vote, more we do not want to allow that to be a get-out for accessible for, for example, people with visual impairments, everybody else. If the hon. Gentleman has anything and more accessible for young people. It is our intention further to say on the matter, I am obviously happy to that the online system will be fully operational when the discuss that with him. transition to individual registration begins. As I said I believe that the changes that I have outlined on yesterday during Deputy Prime Minister’s questions, individual registration will ensure the completeness of that is a genuine opportunity, certainly for disabled the register. I think that the Government have listened, people. learned and improved the Bill. For example, Scope said that it Let me consider briefly the clauses in part 2 about the “supports the change to a system of IER, and warmly welcomes administration and conduct of elections, which are the Government’s commitment to ensure that disabled people’s intended to improve the way in which elections are run. needs are taken into account”. They address issues that parliamentarians and electoral It agrees with our assessment that stakeholders have raised, and make several practical “the introduction of IER should improve access for voters with and sensible changes. I will not go through them all, just disabilities. The current arrangements do not adequately allow the most significant. for disabled people’s access needs to be taken into account”, First, let me consider the provision that extends the and that the introduction of IER offers an ideal opportunity electoral timetable for UK parliamentary elections from to put in place a more accessible system. We intend to 17 to 25 days. That will benefit voters, particularly do that. overseas voters and service voters based abroad, enabling them to have more time to receive and return a postal Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I thank the vote. It also makes it easier to combine general elections Parliamentary Secretary for sharing the information with other polls. about the online system with some of us last week. He The Bill also provides for assisting postal voters—I will know that one of the concerns that some of us have hope that that is of assistance to the hon. Member for is about access to national insurance numbers as a Sheffield South East—whose votes are rejected at elections 1187 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1188 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mr Harper] support, establishing an orderly move to IER with a strong independent role for the Electoral Commission in guarding against because their postal vote identifiers do not match those a sharp fall in registration numbers, the Bill speeds up the stored on records. For example, someone’s signature introduction of IER, and downgrades the Electoral Commission’s role, with the result that there will be no independent arbitrator may have changed or they put down the wrong date—for with the power to halt the process if it is deemed to have resulted instance, not their date of birth but the date of the in a sharp drop in registration levels; notes that the 2015 parliamentary election. Around 150,000 postal votes are rejected at boundary changes will be based on the new electoral register elections. Regulations will make EROs have a duty, which will potentially be inaccurate, risking illegitimate new after the elections, to inform voters that their identifiers constituency boundaries; believes the proposals would mean the have not matched. [Laughter.] I do not know why the young, the poor, ethnic minorities and disabled people would face right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank an increased risk of being unregistered and thus excluded from a range of social and civic functions; further regards the proposals Dobson) is laughing. The provision is included so that as flawed as they risk making the list from which juries are drawn the identifiers can be updated and that, instead of those less representative; concludes that because the evaluation of the voters losing their votes at every subsequent election, second round of data-matching pilots will not be published until they can ensure that their votes count in future. At the early 2013 an assessment of the likely completeness of the register moment, there is no duty to inform them. While the is in effect prevented; and deplores the fact that the Government right hon. Gentleman’s party was in government, hundreds has not published secondary legislation and an implementation of thousands of postal votes were rejected at elections plan for the introduction of IER.” and nothing was done. Rather than laughing at the As the Minister has said, the Bill is essentially in two sensible provisions, I would hope that he supported parts, the second of which concerns the minutiae of the them. administration and conduct of elections. Much of it Alongside that provision, the Government plan to contains relatively uncontentious proposals, but other introduce secondary legislation to make it a requirement matters ought to be addressed, particularly the need to that 100% of postal vote identifiers are checked at ensure that there are no more queues at polling stations. elections. At the moment, legislation provides for only One proposal might well raise a few eyebrows—to allow 20% of postal votes to be checked. Ensuring that 100% a candidate who is supported by two or more political have to be checked will strengthen the integrity of the parties to use the emblem of one of them. The Minister process. has said previously that the measure addresses an anomaly and permits Labour and Co-operative candidates to use There are also provisions to allow the Secretary of those emblems. It is kind of him to be helpful to the State to withhold or reduce a returning officer’s fee for Labour party, but I must tell Conservative Back Benchers poor performance, but with the important check that to be afraid—be very afraid. It could well be the thin there must be a recommendation by the independent end of the wedge. Who knows what it could lead to? Electoral Commission. That is to ensure that returning officers are more accountable. That provision was The first part of the Bill demands far greater attention implemented on a test basis in the Parliamentary Voting because it focuses on electoral registration. The Opposition’s System and Constituencies Act 2011—it was a power view is that individual electoral registration is a sound that the chief counting officer had. It worked well and principle. It places an appropriate responsibility on we are therefore taking it forward. individuals to register to vote and is in tune with modern society. It can no longer be sensible for voter registration The final shape of the proposals demonstrates the to be in the hands of the head of household. Individual value that pre-legislative scrutiny adds to the development elector registration is also an effective way in which to of legislation. I hope most hon. Members will see that ensure the completeness and accuracy of voter registration. the Government have taken a careful, thoughtful and That is why the Labour Government secured legislation measured approach in developing our policy. The Chair for individual elector registration in Northern Ireland of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, and Great Britain. the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), is not sitting in his usual place as he has been upgraded to Last autumn, the Government introduced their draft the Opposition Front Bench, but he said in January that Bill and White Paper on IER. Understandably, their proposals at the time created consternation among a “the House is in severe danger of doing the job that members of wide range of opinion. Much attention focused on their the public elected it to do. The Government have submitted a pre-legislative proposal to the Select Committee, which is how suggestion that there should be a virtual opt-out for things should happen. The Select Committee responded with individuals who do not wish to be reminded about non-partisan efforts to determine a better Bill and to make better registration by an electoral registration officer. The proposals, some of which have already been heard by the second proposal that understandably left many aghast Government.”—[Official Report, 16 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 508.] was the suggestion in the White Paper that voter registration The Government have since accepted more such proposals. ought to be a lifestyle choice, and that no fines should In that spirit, I commend the Bill to the House. be imposed for non-registration. I welcome the fact that the Government have reconsidered both those proposals and others, but we should be clear that a draft Bill and 3.10 pm prior consultation are relatively innovative for this Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): I beg to move an Government—there was no draft Bill or prior consultation amendment, to leave out from “That” to the end of the on two previous pieces of important constitutional Question and add: legislation, namely the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 and the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies “this House, whilst affirming its support for a complete and accurate electoral register and a move to a system of individual Act 2011. I am glad that they are changing their ways. electoral registration (IER), declines to give a Second Reading to The opt-out has been dropped and civil penalties will be the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill because whilst introduced, as suggested by the Opposition. I am also the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 received cross-party pleased that the Government have listened and that 1189 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1190 Administration Bill Administration Bill many electors on the old registers will be carried over. know exactly how much the penalty will be. The Minister Similarly, the annual canvass planned in 2013 will now has said in other exchanges that the penalty will be like occur in 2014. As far as that is concerned, so far, so a parking fine, but the size of parking fines varies good. enormously across the country. Here in Westminster, they can be as high as £130, but in Rhondda Cynon Taff Ms Buck: Does my hon. Friend recognise that the in south Wales, they can be as low as £25. Nobody population and electoral registration turnover in parts wishes large numbers of fines to be issued, but if fines of the country, particularly London and the inner cities, are to be an incentive for people to register, they need to is 30%? Having a canvass a full year before an election be fixed at a reasonable level, and yet we do not know means that we risk going into the election with a third what that will be. of the population unregistered. The Minister said that there will be a national expectation that the total number Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) of people not on the register will fall, which is fine, but (Con): When I was a Conservative party agent way if we do not recognise the variance between communities back in the 1980s—[Interruption.]—people were forced and the pressures on cities, that national expectation to pay a fixed fine of £50 for non-registration, but does will not be much comfort to people such as me. the hon. Gentleman know how many people were forced to pay it? Mr David: That is a good point, and I shall refer to it later in my speech. Mr David: That is not much of an argument. We need As I was saying, the Government have made positive an indication from the Government, which they have concessions, but they have not listened on other matters— failed to provide, of the level at which the fixed fine will indeed, they have refused to listen to those who have be set. There is no question of varying the fixed fine, of expressed legitimate concerns about the Bill. Foremost course; it will be a uniform fixed fine. We simply want to among the Opposition’s concerns and those of many know what it should be. The Observer suggested that it outside the House is the Government’s intention to might be £100. There have been other suggestions, too. I press ahead with individual elector registration at a am simply saying that given that the Government are breakneck speed. The concern that there will be no making a big thing of having listened to the opinions of carry-over for many postal and proxy votes in the move many people outside the House and are committed to a to a new register has been expressed by a range of civil penalty in principle, we need to know what they disability charities, including Mencap, Sense, the Royal judge an effective figure to be. National Institute of Blind People and Scope.

Mr Mark Williams: I have read the Scope briefing Gavin Shuker: Is not the point that the threat of a fine and share that concern, but is the hon. Gentleman not is proportionate to how much money it would take off reassured by what the Minister has said? He said that a people? If it is a small fine, people will be less likely to very small group of people will not be carried over and register, but if it is a larger fine, they will be more likely that there will be a carry-over of existing absent voters to do so. to the new list. Mr David: My hon. Friend puts it very well. Mr David: I am not entirely reassured by what the The Minister told us that details of the civil penalty Minister has said. In fact, I found his comments would be set out in secondary legislation, which brings contradictory and confusing. It is a straightforward me to a broader point. With this legislation, perhaps matter, and I hope that he provides in his winding-up more than any other, the devil is in the detail, but the speech the clarification that the Opposition and detail is tucked away in secondary legislation and we organisations such as the Royal National Institute of cannot see it. Last November, I asked the Deputy Prime Blind People want. Minister, from the Dispatch Box, whether the Government There is also a worry that moneys for EROs to would publish their secondary legislation at the same support transition have not been adequately ring-fenced. time as the primary legislation. That was six months I listened carefully to the Minister. He provided more ago. Additional information has been forthcoming, clarity, but has specifically not stated that the money including today, but six months later we still cannot will be ring-fenced so that it is spent on the purpose for properly assess these proposals, simply because we do which it is intended, which was a key Political and not know—we have not been told—the detail. Constitutional Reform Committee recommendation; I One of the main reasons we have continuing concerns pay warm tribute to the Committee’s work. about the Bill relates to the Government’s timetable for Many other concerns are referred to in the reasoned implementation. Under the last Labour Government, amendment, one of which is the power that the Bill the Electoral Commission was to play a key role in gives to Ministers to cancel annual canvasses. The monitoring and assessing the progress towards a new Government’s argument is that we might at some point register. Sadly, that role has been diminished and no longer need annual canvasses, when registers are downgraded. Instead, the Government are rushing pell-mell complete. The Opposition argue that an annual canvass into a new system of electoral registration that ought to is needed even if we eventually have high registration provide the cornerstone of our democratic process. We levels, because we must always guard against, and be understand from the Government that they are undertaking diligent about, any deterioration of the electoral roll. a second round of data matching. That is to be welcomed The Government have made much of their U-turn on and will show how complete the new register is at the civil penalties. I do not want to belittle their volte face, end of 2015. The pilots will indicate whether the new but before the House can make an assessment of the register will be depleted. In all reasonableness, I think civil penalty that the Government propose, it needs to that the House should be aware of the conclusion of the 1191 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1192 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mr David] back the next election to the latest possible date, which is May 2015? Is it happenstance or could it be for pilots before it decides on the Government’s implementation political advantage? timetable, yet the results of the data-matching pilots will not be available until early next year. Mr David: I do not think it is mere coincidence. It is Why are the Government hell-bent on introducing possible to look at the dates and come to certain conclusions. this radical change at breakneck speed? It has been I only wish that the Liberal Democrats would do the suggested that they are determined to end the carry-over same and recognise that there is a lot in what I say. arrangements before 1 December 2015 for reasons of That concern has been identified by many others. The Conservative party self-interest. Political and Constitutional Reform Committee has raised it, as has the Electoral Reform Society, which Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I recall pointed out that a depleted register could lead to the that we first discussed individual electoral registration reduction of inner-city constituencies, while leaving in the House seven years ago, since when it has been “thousands of…citizens who will not be accounted for or considered implemented in Northern Ireland—effectively a pilot in many key decisions that affect their lives, yet will still look to scheme for the rest of the UK—and it has been looked MPs to serve them as local constituents.” at over the past two or more years in great detail. How I ask the Government, therefore, to dispel any can that possibly be described as breakneck speed? impression that their agenda is partisan. To do that, all they need to do is adopt a more reasonable time scale Mr David: It is breakneck speed. This is the first piece for the introduction of IER that goes beyond of legislation in the Queen’s Speech to be introduced. December 2015. The Electoral Commission and many others have said that we must first complete the data-matching exercises. It is because the Government have so far been unable The Government have deliberately introduced this legislation to acknowledge our concerns or act on our proposals as quickly as possible in their legislative programme to that we have tabled our reasoned amendment. If the circumvent the evidence coming forward that might amendment is unsuccessful, we will oppose the Bill’s highlight weaknesses in the process. Second Reading. That is not a course of action that we want to take, but we feel it absolutely necessary to Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman has a problem. uphold the integrity of the electoral system while ensuring He is a good guy and, like me, wants a good Bill. The that our democratic system is built on firm foundations. Government came up with proposals, have hugely improved on them having listened to him, me and many others, Mr Harper rose— including people outside, and they now want to implement a system that his Government never implemented, despite Mr David: We believe that there is no firmer foundation saying that they would—and this Government will do it than an accurate and complete electoral register. as quickly as possible, and they are building in the safeguards. On this occasion, then, he ought to accept that the Government have done a good job. Why does 3.29 pm he not simply thank the Government for having listened? Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I like the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), but I fear that Mr David: With all due respect, I say to the Liberal spending too many evenings in parliamentary Labour Democrats that, yes, concessions have been made, but party meetings has made him quite paranoid, given that there is still a long, long way to go. As I hope the Liberal the previous Government advanced the same substantive Democrats come to realise before the end of the passage proposals for individual electoral registration in Northern of the Bill, some measures in it might well work against Ireland and that the consultation document that was their interests. The advantage will be with the Conservatives, published in 2005 was followed by the Northern Ireland and the Liberal Democrats might pay a very high price (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006, which gave rise to for acquiescing in the policies of their Conservative individual electoral registration in Northern Ireland. masters. Neither we nor anyone else accused those measures of What is the significance of 1 December 2015? It is being rushed through. The hon. Gentleman must be the when the next parliamentary boundary review takes first Front Bencher to argue against the substantive place. As we should all be aware, under the Parliamentary proposals of the previous Government. The bigger Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, if, for question is why the integrity, autonomy and authority whatever reasons, there is a decline in the number of of the electoral register should be more important in electors in certain constituencies, the parliamentary Northern Ireland than in England, Wales and Scotland. boundaries must be redrawn. It would be most unfortunate for the Government to give the impression that they Mr Harper: I would have made this point to the hon. were seeking political advantage by introducing IER at Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), had he shown the the end of the transitional period, when the size of the generosity of spirit that I did. Given his complaints electorate could be temporarily diminished. It could be about the diminishing register and the risks involved, that the new data-matching pilots will indicate that would my hon. Friend like to consider why the Electoral December 2015 is precisely the time when electoral Commission’s research showed that in 2000, under the numbers are likely to be at their lowest. previous Government, 3 million people were missing from the electoral register and that by 2010, just after Chris Ruane: What reason have the Tory Government they had left office, the figure had risen to 6 million? If given for bringing forward IER by one year and putting there is a party in the House that has shown itself to be 1193 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1194 Administration Bill Administration Bill a past master at driving people off the electoral register, fraud—I will come on to discuss this issue later both for it is not the party on this side of the House; it is the my own constituency and across the country—have party opposite. grievously damaged the faith and trust people have in the electoral process. The Minister is quite right that we Mr Jackson: The Minister makes an astute point. In have all been complacent in assuming that we live in a 2001, the year in which the hon. Member for Caerphilly society where transparency, openness and fairness exist entered the House, the English electorate numbered above all in the electoral process. I did not think I would 37.3 million. By the end of Labour’s second term, in ever encounter a case in which a judge would describe a 2005, the figure was 37.1 million. So Labour did not British electoral result—in this case, for Birmingham push up registration rates in an increasing population city council—as comparable to one of a banana republic, either. yet that happened in 2004 under the watch of the I take with a pinch of salt Labour’s protestations and Government whom the hon. Member for Caerphilly faux outrage. We have argued for many years that supported. overseas voters should also have the right to be registered, Important parts of the Bill are uncontentious, but I and that active steps should be take to achieve that. will bring some concerns to the House’s attention later. That point has also been made by the hon. Member for Of course individual electoral registration has been Caerphilly’s erstwhile right hon. Friend the Member for broadly supported across the House over a number of Rotherham (Mr MacShane). However, that did not years. Some elements, such as the review of polling happen during the 13 years of the previous Government. places, are innocuous and will not be contentious, as I Indeed, they more or less ignored service voters, despite said. many people from military constituencies saying that On civil penalties, I mentioned earlier that we must be that was an outrageous and egregious oversight. cognisant of the fact that some people are not interested in the political process. We cannot force people to Mr Evennett: My hon. Friend is making some powerful register on the basis of a criminal sanction—it is not points. Does he agree that the modernisation of our right to do so—if they genuinely do not feel part of the system is essential, and that it should be brought in as process. That is a function not of a political process, but soon as possible? of societal change over many years. International Mr Jackson: I could not agree more with my hon. comparisons are important for understanding how to Friend, who has great experience in the House. get people to register. Australia is an interesting example. The level of civic engagement in schools and colleges The Bill is absolutely right, in that its central aims are there and the amount of publicity given to financial to tackle electoral fraud, improve the integrity of our education, for example, has led to school children and electoral system, particularly the electoral register, and young people understanding the importance of being modernise the electoral registration system, which, as involved in the system. I think that is a much better way my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford of proceeding than having criminal sanctions and a (Mr Evennett) says, is most important. The hon. Member penalty. Our society is much changed. for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) was gracious in paying tribute to the Minister and the Department for engaging in an open and wide-ranging debate during Siobhain McDonagh: I am certainly no expert on the the pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation, and Australian system and I am sure that school education for producing the White Paper and a detailed, there is good. Nevertheless, Australia has compulsory comprehensive Government response in February 2012. voting and has far more frequent and stronger fining It is far from the truth that this is some kind of rushed, than we do. gerrymandering Bill. It has attracted a lot of support, including from organisations such as the Electoral Mr Jackson: We will not meander down the path of Commission. There is consensus around the Bill. compulsory voting, which is a completely separate issue, The proposals in the Bill featured not only in the and even the benign Deputy Speaker might rule me out Conservative manifesto of May 2010 but in the coalition of order if I did. I think it is better to persuade than to agreement, so we certainly have a mandate for carrying threaten and cajole people. That is why I am not particularly out this policy. If the hon. Member for Caerphilly were concerned one way or the other about the opt-out more generous of spirit, he would perhaps admit that proposals. Had they remained in the Bill and not been the previous Government wanted to proceed in a similar amended, I would still have been happy to support it. way when they were in power. Reference has been made We can argue about civil penalties, but I think amounts to the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 in that of £60, £80 or £100 send out a powerful enough message. regard. After all, no one wants to get a parking ticket and be fined £60. We are talking about civic engagement with Chris Ruane: Will the hon. Gentleman answer a something that is important for the future of our country, question that has so far remained unanswered? The and people understand that they should be part of it. 2009 Act was passed as a result of consensus across the An important corollary of the changes is the reduction Chamber, and its provisions were to start in 2015. Why in the potential for financial fraud. Essentially, the is it so important to bring them back by one year? Why capacity to commit fraud is often given via a place on could we not have retained all-party consensus by keeping the electoral register. Figures produced over the last the date at 2015? year or so in the Cabinet Office impact assessment by the Metropolitan Police Service and the National Fraud Mr Jackson: Because we see this as in the best interest Initiative under the auspices of Operation Amberhill of the body politic generally. There is a plethora of showed that of 29,000 information strands collated, evidence to show that cumulative cases of electoral 13,214—almost 46%—showed data matches with the 1195 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1196 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mr Stewart Jackson] We cannot say that we should not bother about this because we have no proof that it happens. It does electoral register that were fraudulent or counterfeit. In happen, it is costly, it undermines the very basis of other words, the documents were often generated as a democracy in this country, and we should ensure—as I result of someone’s being on the electoral register, but believe the Bill does—that the correct procedures operate were nevertheless fraudulent or counterfeit. to ensure that it does not happen in the future. The hon. The Minister made the simple point that ours is one Lady may wish to reconsider her rather lackadaisical of the few countries in the world that still operates a approach to the integrity of our electoral system. household registration system. The system is backward- One proposal with which I strongly agree, although I looking, and it disfranchises people, particularly women, do not think that the Government have gone far enough, in communities in which the heads of households take is the proposal in clause 19 to allow police community full responsibility for women’s registration and postal support officers into polling stations. I think that if vote. We should do something about that. We have a there is a missed opportunity in the Bill, it is our failure duty to ensure that those women’s votes are not being to consider the serious problem of personation and stolen by people who should not have access to them, intimidation at polling stations. We saw that in Tower because we have a universal franchise based on free and Hamlets earlier this month, and we have seen it too fair access to democracy for every man and every woman, often in Peterborough. I must not major on Peterborough’s which is what has put us here today. central ward, but it is the one that I know best. In that At present, only a person’s name, address and nationality ward we have four polling stations. About half a dozen need to be supplied for that person to appear on the members of the Cambridgeshire constabulary and mobile electoral register. As the Minister made clear, this is one CCTV are required at each of them because of the issue of the least robust systems in the world. Let me share of personation, of which there have been cases in with the House our experience in Peterborough. The Peterborough. hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain We are not going far enough in looking again at the McDonagh), who I know has been in the House for a Representation of the People Act 1983, because the long time, was very relaxed and insouciant, perhaps power of the presiding officer inside the polling station even complacent, about postal votes and the transfer to remains extremely limited. If the hon. Member for the individual electoral registration system. However, Mitcham and Morden were to go into a polling station on 27 April the Peterborough Evening Telegraph reported in Mitcham and Morden and say she was Elvis Presley that 16% of postal votes applied for in the central ward and that name was on the electoral register, the polling of Peterborough had been thrown out because they clerk would have very little power to say, “Actually, were fraudulent or forged. you’re not Elvis Presley. You’re our esteemed local That is happening now, and it can be extrapolated to Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden.” That is not different communities and different wards in urban satisfactory. The legal test for proving that the hon. areas throughout the country, including Greater London. Lady is her good self, rather than Elvis Presley, is very However, Members need not rely on me for speculation, difficult. We have missed an opportunity to look again because there have already been serious cases of electoral at that issue. fraud involving postal votes in Slough, Pendle, Birmingham, In closing—which is what the Whips are imploring West Yorkshire and, in particular, Peterborough. I shall me to do—may I make two quick points? I have concerns say more about that later. about the removal of the co-ordinated online record of electors—CORE—database. I have no interest in promoting Siobhain McDonagh: I certainly would not tolerate national ID databases—I voted against identity cards—but the fraudulent registration of even one postal vote, but the Minister must tell us how successful he has been in how can it be right to reduce access to postal votes for removing the difficulties of duplication, which have the many because of a few examples of fraud? No frequently arisen. CORE ameliorated that, but it is no investigation, including those by the Electoral Commission longer in place. and the Association of Chief Police Officers, has discovered On a slightly mischievous note, this morning on the extensive fraud. We know that it happens, and we know ConservativeHome website my hon. Friend the Member that it happens in particular places, but surely the job of for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) made a point the police is to find out where it happens and make about clause 18 and allowing a parliamentary candidate specific proposals to deal with it, not to disfranchise the standing on behalf of two or more parties to use a many. registered emblem of one or more parties. Can the Minister assure me that there is no hidden agenda in Mr Jackson: We are making specific proposals. I that, and that it is just a helpful way to assist Labour think that the hon. Lady is tarrying with the wrong and Co-operative party representatives to get elected in person. I saw the huge resources that were devoted to their seats? investigation of postal vote fraud by the Cambridgeshire constabulary—who, as far as I know, received little if Mr Harper: I am happy to be able to give my hon. any help from the Government of whom the hon. Lady Friend that assurance. There will not be coalition candidates was a member—between 2004 and 2008. It took four at the next election; there will be separate Conservative years for Operation Hooper to complete its investigation, and Liberal Democrat candidates. I must say, too, that which resulted in the imprisonment of, I believe, five the attitude of Labour Members is a bit depressing. The individuals—two of them Conservative and three only reason why we are making this change is that when Labour, as it happens—following the European and the Labour party was in office it could not draft legislation city council elections in the central ward of Peterborough properly and inadvertently “cocked it up”, to quote the in June 2004. hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Because of 1197 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1198 Administration Bill Administration Bill that, and because we are fixing what is largely a problem proceed. The problem is that, as we know—the hon. for Labour and Co-operative Members, one would think Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) just mentioned they could be slightly less churlish. it—the pilots were not terribly informative. They did not convince anyone that the process was in place for Mr Jackson: Finally, let me say that the data-matching data matching to deliver significant improvements to projects are very useful, but in Peterborough’s case they the register at this stage. The Electoral Commission said resulted in merely a 54.7% matching rate. More work that the analysis lacked a common methodological needs to be done in the second tranche, and sufficient framework—in other words, there was no common resources must be allocated, as this will be the bedrock assessment of the benefits of the different pilots. of individual electoral registration. I welcome the Government saying that there should I thank the Minister for his detailed and comprehensive be a second round of pilots, but we have not reached the remarks. The Bill is excellent. It restores integrity, honesty point where we can conclude that there will be significant and transparency to the electoral system. That is long benefits to the register. Pushing ahead with the new overdue. The previous Government should have done regime of individual registration when we do not really this, but it has been our new Government who have know what the best forms of data matching are and taken this courageous step, in order to make sure we how they will work is a major concern. It is not that I can all have faith and trust in the system that puts us am against the principle of individual registration; however, here and puts councillors in their seats. That adds to we are not yet certain that we have the schemes in place British democracy. really to improve registration through the data-matching process. Several hon. Members rose— The hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) finally got there, did he not? If we had an ID card Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Many system in place, we would have everything we need—we Members wish to speak, so I am imposing a 12-minute would not need to worry about data matching because time limit on contributions. we would have the basis for a comprehensive electoral registration system with individual registration. We would 3.48 pm not have to duplicate it or provide lots of information Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): First, let to different local organisations. This issue is often missed me say that the principle of individual registration is out in these discussions, but the hon. Gentleman got unarguably right; indeed, I have supported it for some there in the end—two years late. Perhaps some of his time. Excellent work has been done by the Political and colleagues might do so as well. Constitutional Reform Committee in this Parliament, I am in favour of complete reform of the electoral but I have read again the recommendations of 2004-05, registration process. Before the Select Committee produced when a Joint Committee of the Committees of its report, it went to Australia to see what happens Constitutional Affairs and the then Office of the Deputy there. They described their system to us, and we described Prime Minister looked at this issue. We supported the ours to them, and they looked at us with a slight degree principle of individual registration, and looked at a of amazement when we explained that the main part of number of ways in which that could have been done. our process was to write each year to every household However, neither of the main political parties chose to to try to get a response. The people who responded were look at a proposal I thought might be appropriate: a those who normally respond, and they were often the common household form that individuals signed, so households that stay the same year in, year out. In other that people registered individually on a single form. words, we concentrated all our resources on writing at At that time, we discussed the possible consequences the same time of year to people whose circumstances of individual registration not being done properly, and had not changed. That is a very inefficient and ineffective that issue has been part of the general argument ever system, because it does not target the groups who do since. As the introduction of these new measures is now not respond or the people whose circumstances have being speeded up, I ask the Minister what will happen if changed. our worst fears are realised and there is a significant fall In Australia, they adopt the data-matching approach. in the number of people on the register. What will the They have an existing register, and they make changes Government’s answer be at that point? Is there a plan when they get information about a change in B? Are measures in place to address that eventuality, or circumstances—for example, that new people have moved will Ministers simply wring their hands and say, “Oh in and others have moved out, or that someone has dear, we didn’t really intend that. It shouldn’t have become eligible to vote because they are now older. happened, but it has happened and there’s nothing we They get such information from schools, universities can do about it”? It is reasonable and right that we raise and so on. Their system is based on targeting resources those concerns at this point and ask Ministers to respond on people who move or whose circumstances in some to them. way change, making sure that they are followed up so Back in 2004-05, we looked at data matching, which that the register can be altered accordingly. is key if we are to get this process right. It is an integral At the time of the report, we recommended that part of the system, and it is absolutely right that electoral when the system is comprehensively reformed, the annual registration officers have access to a whole range of canvass be dropped and replaced with a three-year data from private and public bodies—the utilities, postal audit to check that the register is accurate as a result of services, universities and colleges, local authority housing the data matching. That is an ideal ultimate position to associations, local authority schools, academies and reach; the problem is that we do not know which universities. I congratulate the Government on going data-matching systems will work, and until we do, it is ahead with their pilots, which is the correct way to very dangerous to take away other parts of the system 1199 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1200 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mr Clive Betts] Commission should have powers not merely to monitor and shame those officers who are not performing in that are currently important in ensuring that we get as their duties, but to intervene. Those powers are lacking comprehensive a register as possible. We all know from in this Bill. The commission has asked for them—people the excellent work done by my hon. Friend the Member from the commission mention them every time we meet— for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) that our register is not and we ought to examine them. We need less prescription very accurate, so we must be very concerned about about how this is done; a clear requirement for EROs to anything that might worsen it. maximise registration; a clear requirement for the On the Government’s approach to people who do not commission to give guidelines and examples of good register, I welcome their decision to introduce a civil practice; and powers for the commission then to intervene penalty, as it is the right approach. People have a if there is a failure in particular areas. responsibility to register, and the Government’s change I say to the Minister that I have been partly reassured in position on that is welcome. They have clearly listened on postal votes. It is very important that people who to the evidence, information and views put to them, and have long-term postal votes, not for any fraudulent responded appropriately. However, I would go further reason, but because they simply need them—perhaps on the requirements. My hon. Friend the Member for because they are elderly, they are disabled or they work Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) raised away from home a lot—should not be disadvantaged in this next matter in a meeting I was at a few weeks ago. If any way. As we saw, turnouts in the recent local elections people are going to need services or benefits from the were not high, but turnouts among postal voters, certainly state that require them to give an address—this is in in my constituency, where there have been no allegations addition to data being obtained from various parts of of electoral fraud that I am aware of, were much higher. government to inform electoral registration officers of If we do anything to discourage legitimate postal voting, the state of play on their register and individuals’ we will reduce turnout, and it is important that we keep addresses—I do not see any reason why they should not that in mind. be required to show that they are registered at that I shall conclude now, as I am aware that other hon. address. If someone is going to claim benefits or services Members wish to contribute. I just say to the Minister from the state, they also have a responsibility to act as a that the reasoned amendment is just that—it is a reasoned citizen. As a citizen, they should be required to do jury amendment. Many—perhaps all—Labour Members are duty and not pass that requirement on to others. Why not against the principle of individual registration; we should they not be required to be eligible for jury duty are merely concerned about an undue rush to implement and therefore to have to register? it, which could damage the number of people registering. Such damage would not be intended by Ministers but, if Siobhain McDonagh: I thank my hon. Friend for it were to occur, it would be very damaging to the whole supporting my ten-minute rule Bill in the last Session. I democratic process in this country. hope to bring it back, and I hope that it will have all-party support. 3.59 pm Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I am grateful for Mr Betts: I am certainly prepared to support that the opportunity to speak in the debate and I broadly Bill. welcome the content of the Bill. There is much to This is not just about jury service; it is also about the commend it, especially individual electoral registration, fact that the registers are used to draw up boundaries. If which is long overdue. Regardless of what official statistics some people decide that they want to opt out of registration, say, the simple fact is that in parts of Britain electoral they are, in effect, undermining and reducing the level fraud is widespread and has led to fraudulent election of electoral representation in their area, by making the results. That is a disgrace and should be tackled immediately constituency they live in have a larger number of residents. or at least as soon as is practicably possible, not in 2014 That is because the boundaries will be made on the or 2015—or even later, as the Opposition suggest. basis not of the number of residents, but the number of people registered to vote in areas. Again, it is a matter Frank Dobson: The law provides for people who of civic responsibility that people should be registering. commit electoral fraud to be prosecuted, fined or If they take services and benefits from the state, they imprisoned. If the problem is as widespread as people should give something back in return. suggest, why are there not more prosecutions, more The other issue I briefly wish to address is how we go people paying fines and more electoral swindlers in jail? about forming a national regime for improving registration. We have to examine the powers that the Electoral Andrew Stephenson: I shall come on to that exact Commission has and those it is asking for. As a localist, point. There are a range of reasons why electoral fraud I think we are currently too prescriptive about the is not reported, the police do not have the resources to means of getting a comprehensive register. I have mentioned follow it up and the culprits are not brought to justice. that we may not require the annual canvass in future. Dozens of MPs have majorities in two or three figures The Electoral Commission should give electoral registration and I have real concerns about the integrity of the officers a general requirement to ensure that as high a ballot and its impact on recent elections as well as percentage of people in an area register as possible. The future ones. Electoral Commission should give guidelines and examples My Labour predecessor in this House, Gordon Prentice, of good practice as to how that should be achieved. If was a vocal supporter of individual voter registration, EROs then do not carry out their functions—if we particularly in April 2008 when he found out that our clearly see that in some areas the process is failing, Lib Dem opponent for the last general election had whereas in others it is succeeding—the Electoral 27 registered voters living in his house and a household 1201 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1202 Administration Bill Administration Bill of 44 people. I know that some Members will raise their Not coincidentally, Labour was elected on both occasions. eyebrows at that, and it was indeed an exceptional case, The Conservative vote did not collapse. The Labour but I can assure hon. Members that in parts of my victory was not on trend across the constituency. constituency it is not uncommon for seven, eight or Nevertheless, in this ward its support rocketed. more voters to be registered as living in a terraced house and no one makes any checks on that. Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): In We have also seen a sharp rise in the number of 2004 in Sheffield we had an all-postal vote election. eastern European names appearing on the electoral roll, Labour won that election against the trend. Is the hon. including those of Polish, Lithuanian or Czech citizens, Gentleman suggesting that in such instances there is but few are correctly marked as being unable to vote in wide-scale fraud on the part of Labour voters? UK parliamentary elections or referendums. During my time in Parliament, the names of virtually every Andrew Stephenson: Certainly not. I am suggesting illegal immigrant or illegal overstayer with whom I have that certain parties can abuse the system of on-demand dealt has appeared on the electoral roll. We know from postal voting, and all parties have a vested interest in Operation Amberhill, which was mentioned by my hon. signing up their voters for postal votes in order to Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), increase the turnout of their voters. I believe that that that almost half of all forged or counterfeit documents can skew election results. A return to the old system, were positive matches on the electoral register. where voters had to have a reason to have a postal vote, Surely all that would lead anyone to support individual is the way that we should go. electoral registration—and I do—but we need to ensure I accept that in the Reedley ward it is theoretically that it is properly scrutinised for fraud and that the possible that local support for Labour did sky-rocket. returns are accurate. Scrutiny costs money and it will However, I have no doubt that the 45% increase in the take a significant amount of time and effort to check Labour vote in 2011, against the backdrop of an 18% drop people’s citizenship or residency status, in particular, so in turnout, was down to the huge increase in postal I welcome the Minister’s comments about extra money votes that year, as well as individual reports of party for the project. activists walking into polling stations with piles of up to The nub of the issue of electoral fraud is on-demand 50 postal votes at a time. It is not so much that the postal voting, on which I believe, sadly, that the Bill numbers do not add up; rather, that they do. As the new should go further. It was introduced by the previous council leader of Pendle, Councillor Joe Cooney, recently Government and my concerns are widely shared by a said: number of Members and by many of my constituents. “If we lose an election we want to lose it fairly, we don’t want In a letter to the Electoral Commission’s Jenny Watson to see councillors losing seats where it is not a level playing field.” last summer, Pendle borough council’s chief executive, I accept, as I said, that while the rules remain as they Stephen Barnes, described how are, all political parties will compete to sign up as many “allegations and perceptions of malpractice around” people as possible on to postal votes. Everyone in the postal voting Chamber knows that electors with postal votes are “are seriously undermining public confidence in the whole electoral more likely to use their vote, so all political parties have process”, a vested interest in doing that. However, as we all know, and expressed his own view that those concerns were the temptation for some political activists to create fully justified, citing examples of probable malpractice fictitious voters and sign them up for postal votes has and difficulties for the council in taking action. proved irresistible in places such as Slough, Birmingham and east London. In a motion last year, Pendle borough council resolved that practices related to postal votes It is also clear, yes, that there is a cultural element to this. That has been endorsed by independent organisations “affected the result of the election in some wards”. such as the Joseph Rowntree Trust. Even if the electoral Just last week, five councillors in Pendle from the three roll is accurate, as the Bill hopes to ensure, the current main parties came together to form a taskforce on on-demand postal voting regime actively disfranchises tackling postal vote fraud. One of those five, Conservative women and young people by allowing family voting to Councillor Linda Crossley, said: occur. By family voting, I mean the head of a household “People used to have to be really ill, virtually bed-ridden, to get pledging the entire family’s votes to a particular political a proxy or postal vote, now anybody can get a postal vote”. party. He can then ensure that all those votes go to that To put that into context and explain how it happens, I political party by watching family members complete shall refer to one ward, Reedley, where the scale and their postal ballots, completing the ballots himself, or impact of postal voting has been dramatic. I should indeed completing them with an activist from the said declare an interest. Reedley was for many years a safe political party. Conservative ward and perhaps it still is, without on-demand postal voting. Until last year all three councillors were Mr Stewart Jackson: I entirely concur with my hon. Conservative; now there is only one. In 2010, 800 postal Friend’s comments. What we have found in Peterborough votes were issued in Reedley in an election in which from time to time is that the head of the household will 3,049 people voted. The Conservative candidate secured fill in both the signature and the date of birth of 49% of the vote and was easily elected. In 2011, Reedley predominantly women members of the family. It is saw a 25% increase in postal votes, and this year a time-consuming and resource-intensive for the local further increase of almost 25%. In two years an extra authority and the electoral registration officer to cross- 479 voters felt the need to vote by post. Virtually all reference and match those. It is only in that way that the were from the British Pakistani community and virtually practice is found out, but often it is not. That is all were signed up for postal votes by the Labour party. uncomfortable and unpalatable, but nevertheless true. 1203 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1204 Administration Bill Administration Bill Andrew Stephenson: This is a particular issue in the relating to voter registration, stating that the offences south Asian community. I have met Asian women in my usually concern financial benefit or identity fraud, which constituency who have told me they have no idea who can be investigated separately, rather than electoral they voted for because their husband did it. Needless to fraud. Surely we have all met mums in our constituency say, because of the close family ties and bonds of advice surgeries whose single person discount has been loyalty, this is not going to be reported to the police or removed from their council tax bill because the council investigated by anyone. I imagine Emmeline Pankhurst found that the electoral register recorded adult sons or will be turning in her grave. daughters as living with them, even though they had Apart from electoral fraud taking place and women moved out. That is the problem. It is not about people and young people in some households losing their right wanting to go on to the electoral register. to vote, such goings-on play into a narrative that gives impetus to groups such as the British National party Mr Stewart Jackson: Is the hon. Lady really telling and the English Defence League. As someone who the intelligent and articulate Pakistani women in my played an active role in helping an excellent Conservative constituency that they are not intelligent enough or candidate unseat a BNP councillor in Pendle this year, I cannot be trusted to fill in their own individual electoral say that we cannot allow electoral fraud, or the suspicion registration forms and that they have to trust their of it, to continue to be used as a reason for undermining mums, aunties, dads or uncles to do so, because I do not community cohesion. think that that is about women’s empowerment? It is patronising, backward-looking and potentially extremely In my view, the only sensible conclusion is to suspend fraudulent. postal voting by demand and revert to a system in which postal and proxy votes are available only to Siobhain McDonagh: I think that that intervention is people who genuinely need them and can provide a the result of the hon. Gentleman’s own embarrassment compelling reason why they cannot vote on the day. at some of his earlier contributions on people who That would save a significant amount of money, which should not be on the electoral register—that gets to the could be invested in better scrutiny of individual voter nub of it. registration, as outlined in the Bill, and would address I accept that I am out of step and that individual the biggest area of fraud in our electoral system. We registration is going to happen. Given that it is, what would disfranchise nobody and could restore confidence can we do to make sure that as many people as possible in our democracy. Alongside individual registration, an are on the register? immediate end to postal voting on demand would lead to electoral fraud, and allegations of it, once again Our democracy depends on the fullest electoral register, becoming exceptional. and that is why I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South I welcome the Bill’s Second Reading but urge the East (Mr Betts) referred, and which suggests that anybody Government to go much further by ending postal voting who receives a service from the state, gets a library on demand. That would end almost all electoral fraud, ticket and a driving licence or claims a benefit should re-empower women and young people, remove a hobby- have to be on the register. It would be a social contract, horse issue from the far right, bring our democracy in whereby the state—the Government—had a connection line with international standards and restore true confidence with people, who were able to vote if they chose to. In in our electoral system. that way, we would also bring about a connection that people understood—that there was not something called 4.11 pm Government money, but an individual’s money, which they gave to the Government or the state to spend. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): The police are not against a comprehensive electoral If I may issue a challenge or wager to the hon. Member register, because it is one of the country’s most effective for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), it is that there will be crime databases, so their job will be made much harder proportionately fewer young people on the electoral if the register becomes less complete. Banks and credit register in December 2015 than there are today. I support companies will find it harder to tackle fraud, and councils household registration because I believe that the most will also find it harder to investigate benefit fraud. effective electoral registration officer in my constituency If millions drop off the register because individual is mum. It is mum who fills in the form and includes her registration is introduced too rapidly and with too few young sons—it is principally young sons, but also young safeguards, there will be trouble ahead. The Government daughters. It is not about people being excluded because have made some concessions, but, as the Bill stands, the of a bullying dad or other figures in the household. The number of people on the electoral roll and electoral young men I saw queuing up at the polling station at the participation will decline. last general election were there and able to vote because their mums assisted them in that. My concern about Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South individual registration is not about party preference or Pembrokeshire) (Con): The hon. Lady may be aware who wins and loses, but about the disfranchisement of that people gave evidence to the Political and Constitutional those groups who, for the good of us all and the Reform Committee on this topic, but not a single one of protection of our society, must be included in the system. the organisations that she mentions raised the concerns Those listening to the debate would be forgiven for that she mentions, so will she explain the basis of the thinking that all sorts of fraud goes on all the time and evidence on which she makes her point? that there is plenty of evidence for it, but actually the contrary is true. The report produced by the Association Siobhain McDonagh: I am not sure that I understand of Chief Police Officers and the Electoral Commission the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, but the Association in March 2012 identified remarkably low levels of offences of Chief Police Officers and the police are concerned 1205 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1206 Administration Bill Administration Bill about the problems of under-registration because they the registrations by second home owners in Cornwall. I use the electoral register, and many people are concerned have supported that publicly and have therefore been in about what is going to happen. If he looks throughout receipt of letters from all parts of the United Kingdom the world, and at America, where about one in six from people who have property in north Cornwall; under-25-year-olds is not registered and one in six people many choose to do so. Second home ownership is a who earn less than $20,000 a year is not registered, he serious issue in terms of property prices, the property will find plenty of evidence, quite apart from that market, and so on. I have been at pains to say that I do provided by those who I am sure gave very good evidence not believe that all second home owners are a drain on to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. the local area’s services or that they do not contribute to I am worried about the position of those individually local charities and other organisations. registered people who would still be allowed to vote by Voter registration, however, is a different issue. As I post or by proxy in 2015, but I am not concerned for my said in the previous debate, I have heard that several own electoral benefit, because in the London borough people have come across political campaigning in certain of Merton far more postal voters vote Tory than vote elections that targets the second home vote, which is Labour. I am defending the opposition’s vote, rather unhealthy. As I said, I have received letters from other than my own, but it is the right of people who are parts of the country from people whom Cornwall council unwell, disabled, work away or find it easier to vote by has decided to remove from the register on the grounds post to have the chance to do so. that they are not resident in Cornwall, and I see trotted If anybody here went to sign a postal vote today, they out phrases such as “No taxation without representation”. would be asked to tick a box, and they would be able to However, I view their property ownership in a similar choose to have a postal vote indefinitely—not until vein to that of those who operate a business in a December 2015, but indefinitely. That is the contract constituency but do not live there. Business rate payers which, at the moment, the Bill is going to break. According have not had the vote for some time. It is the same with to ACPO and the Electoral Commission, no electoral other forms of land ownership. result has ever been affected by over-registration, but if postal voters lose their vote en masse that will be a very The accuracy of the register is important, for the different matter. reasons that the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) pointed out, although he worries that people I am concerned that people will not register. The should be on it but are not, whereas I worry that people detail of the measure—the fact that we are asking every are on it but should not be. person in a household to fill in their own form and to put in their own NI number and date of birth—is, The Government have stated their intention to offer practically, an extraordinarily difficult process to go further opportunities for local people to influence decisions through. As I said when I intervened on the Minister, I in their local area through referendums about, for example, am concerned that when the person from the council council tax setting or development and neighbourhood canvasses they will not be able to fill in the form there plans. A referendum could be held to see whether and then, even if the individual is able to provide their people want to endorse or to think again about a NI number and date of birth. If the canvasser could do development framework for a local community. My so, that would cut out a lot of bureaucracy. concern on that score is about places where there is a I hope that my party will allow me to sit on the Public dire need for affordable housing. It will undoubtedly be Bill Committee, because I am interested in allowing in the interests of the people who live in the area for that people to participate and to become involved. If 20% of affordable housing to be built—they might have relatives the electorate can fall off the register in Northern who are in desperate need of it—but it will probably not Ireland when individual registration is introduced, then be in the interests of those who have second homes in a constituency such as mine, where a third of voters there. I therefore suspect—call me cynical if you will, move every year and there are highly disadvantaged and Mr Deputy Speaker—that those who own property in disfranchised groups, the number who may fall off the the area, but do not have an interest in whether the register is absolutely huge, and that is in no party’s community is a living, thriving one, will take a different interest. view on whether a new affordable housing development should be built, particularly in a coastal or village community. Those are crucial questions that we need to 4.19 pm get right. Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): The hon. As I said, the first issue is whether people who have Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) multiple properties should be on the register in multiple made a thoughtful speech, although I disagree with locations. If we are moving towards an individual electoral some of what she said. Unlike her, I think that we are registration system, it ought to be just that: each individual going in the right direction with individual voter registration, should be on the register in one place and should state and most Members’ comments seem to reflect that view. where that place is. We could have a discussion about When we last debated this matter in January, in Opposition what options there are for determining where somebody time, I covered two issues, and because I always strive should register. I would be happy for a person to opt for for consistency in what I do in this House, I will do so which place they use. Another school of thought says again. that it should be based on the amount of time they The first issue is people who are fortunate enough to spend in each area. There are data, such as those that own multiple properties and therefore find themselves have been used in the data-matching pilots, that show able to register to vote in two or more places. The where a person spends most of their time. That information council in Cornwall has started to take action that the would be useful for a local authority in determining former district councils did not in challenging some of whether a person is resident in its area. 1207 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1208 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Dan Rogerson] and those who are seeking to catch up with people who are trying to avoid their responsibilities—for instance, We could go further than the data that were authorised by not paying their bills. The edited register is a useful for use in the pilots. Many of the cases will relate to the and valuable resource. I am pleased that the Government ownership of property. Although pay-as-you-earn have not included its abolition in the Bill, despite the information was on the list, registration for capital view of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. gains tax purposes was not. In the past, we have heard I hope that the Government will stick to that view and celebrated examples of people changing the designation that we will not have to revisit the issue. of their properties for capital gains tax purposes, depending on which property they were about to sell. If somebody 4.29 pm opts to say that a place is their main residence for tax purposes, should they not also say that it is their main Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): The residence for electoral registration purposes? That is first time I heard of the proposal for individual registration, another form of data that could be useful, but it was I expressed my opposition to the idea. I remain of that not used in the data matching pilots. opinion, like my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh). Earlier this week, we discussed the council tax discount. There is still a 10% discount for second homes even in The Bill is unique in the history of all changes to councils that have chosen to make second home owners electoral law over the past 180 years. All the others pay as much council tax as possible. Although my hon. added citizens to the electoral register; this one, as we all Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen know, will do the reverse. Individual registration will Gilbert) was reflecting the opinion of the electorate in reduce the number of people on the electoral roll. Cornwall and other parts of the country in supporting Those who support the Bill say that its object is to the abolition of the discount, it will present a problem. reduce the scope for electoral fraud, but whatever the At the moment, there is an incentive to register a intentions behind it, its main effect will be to reduce the property as a second home, because to get the 10% number of people entitled to vote. That number will be discount one has to notify the council. That is useful for reduced not by keeping swindlers off the electoral roll data mapping and for resolving the registration issues but because it will become more inconvenient, complicated to which I am referring. If the 10% discount goes, we and difficult for the law-abiding majority to get on to it. will lose that option. Other methods will therefore have The right to vote is the birthright of every British to be used to ensure that the register is accurate. citizen and the most important right granted to those who become British citizens. It is a symbol of our Putting the new systems in place presents a huge democracy.Over the centuries, British people have struggled, opportunity, whether paper forms or computer systems fought and in some cases died for the right to vote. In are used. I appreciate that the Government do not want the last century, women had to battle for it. This afternoon, to be in the business of deciding what system a local we are being asked to vote to make it harder for many of authority should use and exactly how the forms should our fellow citizens to exercise that democratic right. look. There will inevitably be differences. Having lived in different parts of the country, I know that different Mr Harper: Why does the right hon. Gentleman councils have different ways of doing things, but we think that our fellow United Kingdom citizens in Northern could specify in regulations certain items of data that Ireland are perfectly capable of registering individually—just must be captured. I would welcome a view from the as many of them are on the register—but people in Minister on this point. Great Britain are not? I would like people who are completing the form to be asked whether they have another property that they Frank Dobson: I am rather surprised that the hon. might consider registering at and, if so, where that Gentleman gives the example of Northern Ireland, property is. We could discuss those sorts of questions in because he cannot deny that there was a massive drop in Committee. The form will provide an opportunity for registration immediately after individual registration such cross-referencing. At the moment, it would be was introduced. I see no reason to believe that the incredibly difficult for an electoral registration officer to people of Northern Ireland are inferior to any other check whether somebody who was registered in two people. places had voted in both places in a general election. No one can deny that there have been examples of They would have to know where the other property was, electoral fraud, which are deplorable. We know that, get access to the marked register and compare it with because people have been successfully prosecuted. However, their own marked register. For areas such as north the number of fraudsters is small, otherwise there would Cornwall that have a large number of second homes, be more prosecutions. The most glaring scandal of our that would be very time consuming. If we could capture electoral system is not that some have swindled their that information at the point of registration, it would be way on to the electoral roll but that as many as 9 million hugely reassuring. of our fellow citizens have been left off it. That is the I will move on briefly to the second point that I want scandal that we should be addressing. Instead, the to cover. The Bill does not include the issue of the Government want to add to the number of their fellow edited register. I know that there is a range of views on citizens who will be denied their birthright. this matter. I am pleased that the Government do not We are being asked to pass a law to make life more propose to change the status quo and abolish the edited inconvenient and difficult for the law-abiding many, in register. I hope that they will cling to that position, response to the law-breaking of the wrongdoing few. because many organisations rely on the edited register, Instead, we should be targeting more effort, and much including charities, those who seek to unite family members more effective effort, at whenever and wherever electoral who have been separated, credit referencing organisations fraud is suspected. 1209 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1210 Administration Bill Administration Bill Mrs Laing: I am thinking about the figure of 9 million are 10,000 fraudsters—I do not accept that there are—we that the right hon. Gentleman gave. Is it not the case are paying far more attention to them than to the that at present, those 9 million people, if there are absence of 6 million people who should be on the 9 million—I think there are 3 million—have to go electoral register. The whole damn thing is back to front through their “head of household”, whatever that might and it is about time we took our duties seriously and mean, to register to vote? When the Bill becomes law, discharged our obligations in the way in which my hon. they will be able to register individually in their own Friends the Members for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) right, which will give them a power that they do not and for Mitcham and Morden suggest. We should go have at the moment. out there, day in, day out, using every possible method we can devise to get on the register people who could Frank Dobson: I do not think that is what will happen legitimately be on the electoral register. The Bill has a in practice. I admit that it may happen in some cases, cock-eyed priority. but in a very large number of cases, particularly in inner-city areas such as my constituency where people 4.38 pm live in houses in multiple occupation, it will be more Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): It is a difficult for people to get on the register. Virtually genuine pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for everyone in the Chamber accepts that that is likely to Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), because I happen, but apparently regards that reduction as a bit totally disagree with everything that he has just said, so of collateral damage in the headlong pursuit of individual perhaps we can have a real debate about the amendment registration. and the party political difference on the matter. The Bill will improve the electoral register’s Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken comprehensiveness and accuracy. It is long overdue. It about houses in multiple occupation. At the moment, is absurd that, in the 21st century, a person’s right to people in houses in multiple occupation get one form vote depends on the head of household filling in a form. and depend on someone to whom they are not even Each individual member of our society should be related to put them on the electoral register. Under our responsible for registering themselves to vote and should proposals, they will all be written to and all get the have the vote that they deserve. I have never understood chance to register individually. That is a step forward, why the Labour party—it is in opposition now, but the not backwards. situation was the same when it was in government—has been so reluctant for the last two Parliaments to go Frank Dobson: The measures are proposed for areas ahead with that obvious modernisation of our electoral where there is about a 30% to a 33% turnover of administration system. population each year. To whom will the electoral lot Labour Members now want that modernisation to be write if people have moved on? The proposals do not delayed. I understand their objection a little better reflect the practicalities, problems and inconveniences having listened to the right hon. Member for Holborn that arise. and St Pancras, but the arguments of the hon. Member The Bill reminds me of when the police tried to for Caerphilly (Mr David) simply do not hold water. counter football hooliganism by inconveniencing the The Government are not, as he said, rushing pell-mell. majority of law-abiding football fans by treating all The proposals have been discussed in the Chamber and football fans as hooligans. It did not stop hooliganism. other places for seven years, and this Government have It was only when the police started to identify and taken two years and two weeks to introduce the Bill. target the trouble-making few that widespread hooliganism That is not “breakneck speed”. was stopped and the law-abiding many felt safe again. If The Opposition amendment is ridiculous. They state we want to deal with the fraud, we need to target the that potential fraudsters much better. “the proposals would mean the young, the poor, ethnic minorities By all means we should ensure that no one votes who and disabled people would face an increased risk of being unregistered should not vote, but surely a far more important task is and thus excluded from a range of social and civic functions”. ensuring that everyone who is entitled to do so can cast I entirely take the point that measures must be in place their vote. The whole approach is simply back to front. to help people who are disabled or elderly, and there is a Our first priority should be to get on the register the duty on local authorities to provide such help. The 6 million people who are not on it—I do not know Government are as concerned as the previous one, and whether by a slip of the tongue I said 9 million. Even Government Back Benchers are as concerned as Opposition the benighted Electoral Commission admits that the Back Benchers to ensure that people who are elderly or figure is about 6 million. The Bill proposes all sorts of disabled get help to register to vote if they need it. cross-checking of official records, but largely with the How many hon. Members as candidates in elections object of getting people off the electoral roll. We should or as election managers knock on somebody’s door, cross-check official records and private databases with find that they are not registered, get them a form and the object of adding people to the register. The Bill’s ensure that they register? How many of us knock on a object is wrong. Getting more people on the roll should door and find an elderly person who might find it be the main task of all involved in the electoral system: difficult to get to the polling station and offer to arrange registration officers, the Electoral Commission, the them a lift? All Members on both sides of the House do Boundary Commission, civil servants, Ministers, holders that. We sometimes help if we think the person might of private sector data and political parties. vote for our candidate rather than someone else’s, which The Bill is back to front, dealing with a minor problem is fair enough, but there is every likelihood that someone compared with the glaring scandal that 6 million of our from all political parties will knock on that door. Somebody fellow citizens are not on the electoral roll. Even if there will help that person to get to the polling station or have 1211 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1212 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mrs Eleanor Laing] approached, educated, given a form and encouraged to register to vote when they reach their 18th birthday. a form sent to someone by the local authority to ensure The Opposition’s argument simply does not hold they are registered to vote. We all do it because it is in water. The Bill will give more individual power to every our interests. person in this country, particularly the 3 million—I am However, I am amazed that the Opposition say ethnic glad the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras minorities will be less likely to register to vote under the agreed the figure was not 9 million—who should be on Bill, because the opposite is the case. I am thinking the register but are not. It will be far, far easier for them particularly about women in certain ethnic minorities to register on their own behalf, rather than having to do who have their right to vote, or indeed to participate in so through a head of household. wider public life, restricted by a head of household who exercises the power of a head of household. In this Bill Siobhain McDonagh: Will the hon. Lady give way? we are giving greater rights to women in those ethnic minorities. Mrs Laing: Sadly, I do not have time. I am sorry. My greatest concern is the idea that young people will Government Members are pleased that the Minister not register to vote if their mother or father does not fill has listened to the consultation. Speaking on behalf of in the form for them. What absolute nonsense! I shall go the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, I further: if a young person cannot organise the filling in am particularly pleased that he has taken account of of a form that registers them to vote, they do not some of the points raised during the pre-legislative deserve the right to vote—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] I scrutiny. Once again, the Bill is a good example of how thought that might be controversial, but I do not mind. pre-legislative scrutiny works to the advantage of Parliament Chris Ruane: That argument smacks of the Conservative’s and the democratic system. In particular, I think of the attitude towards the poor in general—the undeserving data matching with the Department for Work and poor and the deserving poor, the undeserving voters Pensions, keeping people on the register during the and the deserving voters. In whose political interest is transition, and recognising that registering is a civic it? It is in the Tory party’s political interest to keep those duty and maintaining a penalty for not doing so. In poor voters off the register. those areas, the Government deserve to be congratulated on having amended the draft Bill. I also welcome the Mrs Laing: Not in my constituency, it is not, where a funding formula for local authorities under section 31 large majority of them vote Tory. I want them on the of the Local Government Act 2003, and I am glad that register. This is simply not a reasonable argument. If the Minister will be consulting on accountability. someone is responsible enough to exercise their right to That brings me to the second half of the Bill, which vote to decide the Government of this country, or at we have not really debated yet, concerning the powers any level of local government, they should be responsible of electoral registration officers and returning officers. enough to register to vote. At present, returning officers are accountable to no one. We need a structure whereby they can be ordered to Mr Stewart Jackson: Does my hon. Friend agree that carry out instructions, possibly by the Electoral the Labour party should have learnt its lesson from the Commission. We saw during the 2010 general election Bradford West by-election result? It relied on community that the Electoral Commission had no power to direct. voting and this kind of backward-looking, pernicious On the matter of counting votes at the close of poll, I and frankly slightly sleazy and corrupt approach to tabled an amendment, which was supported by the then registration and campaigning. It bit Labour on the Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Blackburn backside and it lost by 10,000 votes. It is over. (Mr Straw) and subsequently became law. Returning Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I officers had to be directed by an amendment to primary think there was a question in there somewhere. legislation to count the votes at the close of poll. That is not the right way to do it; there should be a much better Mrs Laing: Yes, of course I agree with my hon. structure, and I therefore welcome clause 17. Friend. His example is a very good one. I suggest, however, that the Minister might wish to go We are getting to the bottom of this, because the further. Something else happened in 2010 that has not Opposition, not I, raised the issue of party political been addressed in the Bill. It involved people who were advantage. waiting to vote at the close of poll. Eligible electors who are present at a polling station at that time should be Mr Harper: Members who do not think that young allowed to vote if they are within the precincts of the people will register are being overly pessimistic. When I polling station. I appreciate that this matter needs to be visited Northern Ireland, I noted that, with IER, electoral carefully defined, but I suggest that the Bill gives the registration officers could interact directly with young Government an opportunity to introduce rules that people. They go to schools and get more young people would give the presiding officer at a polling station the registered to vote than we do in Great Britain. Members authority to designate the end of a queue, for example, have a huge opportunity to engage with young people in or the area—not necessarily in the polling station itself—in our schools. We know that often young people are more which people must be present before 10 o’clock in order engaged in politics than their parents. to vote at 10 o’clock. On the night of the 2010 general election, there was unfair criticism of the Electoral Mrs Laing: I agree entirely with the Minister. Of Commission, which did not have the power that the course, it is relatively easy for electoral registration media thought it had to tell electoral registration officers officers to find young people, because up until 16 they what to do. I hope that the Minister will consider are at school or college, and at that point can be amending the Bill in this respect. 1213 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1214 Administration Bill Administration Bill Gavin Shuker: The hon. Lady’s argument seems to be Let me proceed to my main arguments. I speak from that young people who cannot be bothered to fill in the my personal experience of elections and on the basis of form should lose the right to vote, but that people who talking to the people who run elections in Sunderland—my cannot get to the polling station by 10 pm should gain local authority, the electoral registration officer and the that opportunity— elections officers. To put Sunderland in context, it has a fairly static population, not one that churns very quickly. Mrs Laing: No—that is completely wrong. My point We also have a high percentage of postal votes, partly as is that if someone is just outside the polling station—in a result of the postal vote experiment of 2004, I think, the school playground, perhaps, or the car park of the when we had all-out postal vote elections. Many people village hall—but there is not sufficient space for them to have retained the right to their postal votes because they get in through the door, the presiding officer should like voting that way; they find it convenient. The key to have the power to designate the end of the queue, so any election is not just having an accurate electoral that those people can move forward and vote. register, but making it as easy as possible for people to cast the vote to which they are entitled. Mr Harper: The Government did listen, and the Sunderland delivers its counts very quickly—something Political and Constitutional Reform Committee agreed of which I am proud—and this is based on organisation with our view that relating to the whole electoral process. Bill Crawford “careful planning and allocation of resources are likely to be and Lindsay Dixon, who run our elections office, take more effective in ensuring all those who are eligible can access great pride in the finest detail of their work. Efficient their vote without resorting to legislation.” counts and efficient election days come from the compiling That was our view, the Committee agreed with us, and of the electoral register and the planning that goes into that is the position at which I think we will remai. running elections. Mrs Laing: I appreciate the Minister’s position, but I have moved to support individual voter registration perhaps that is something we can look at as the Bill in principle, albeit with some reservations, as I have passes through the House. outlined that there have been problems with accuracy and the completeness of the register in the past. That is There is nothing in the Bill that will give party why, when in government, Labour introduced the Political political advantage to any political party. It is a simple, Parties and Elections Act 2009. I welcome the Government’s straightforward modernisation of electoral administration. moving of the annual canvass to 2014, which I think It is vastly overdue, and it will give more rights, not will be a help, but I still have some very serious concerns. fewer, to the electors of this country. The amendment before us is based on nonsense, and it should be rejected. First, on the data-matching exercise, the accuracy of The House should support the Bill. Department for Work and Pensions records is a problem. As an MP, I regularly get casework relating to that inaccuracy. Numbers are flagged to the wrong people. 4.53 pm People are usually made aware that their national insurance Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): I should like records are flagged to the wrong person only when they to speak in support of the reasoned amendment tabled apply for something like a maternity benefit or whatever. by my right hon. and hon. Friends, but before I make The first time they apply for something, the problem my points, I should like to comment on some of the arises. Although we can easily get those problems sorted issues that have been raised in the debate. I do not out as MPs, it does highlight the inaccuracy of DWP recognise the picture of electoral fraud being painted by records. I have also experienced problems surrounding some Members on the Government Benches. I have the recording of multiple births. The DWP is not that worked on elections for 30 years or more, and that is a good, in my experience, at issuing the correct national world that I do not know. That is not to say that insurance numbers. Sometimes people simply do not electoral fraud does not happen, and when it does, it know their national insurance number. Issues about should be tackled aggressively by the police and the accuracy are evident. authorities. The number of prosecutions is small, however, One of the Department’s pilot schemes involved a and it is perhaps stretching the truth to suggest it ward in my constituency. Having discussed this with the constitutes the general behaviour during elections. people running the elections in Sunderland and compiling I have sympathy with what my hon. Friend the Member the electoral register, I found that only about half the for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) said people data-matched to DWP records. Given that I about heads of households, and about mums signing up mentioned that Sunderland has a fairly static population, for their families. We will lose that practice, which that is quite a worrying statistic. If we are talking only happens in a lot of places. Also, people already have the about half the people in my constituency, I suggest that right to register individually; they do not have to register the proportion might be significantly higher in a on a form filled in by the head of the household. constituency with a higher churn. Another problem is My final introductory comment relates to what the that electoral registration records tend to be property-based, hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) said. whereas DWP records tend to be name-based. Overall, Thank goodness the return to postal voting on a the data-matching process is going to be time consuming specific issue is not going to return. The first time I and costly to administer. The Department needs to take applied for a postal vote was when I was expecting my note of that. second child. Although my baby was due in the week of My second concern relates to postal and proxy votes an election, because I was active politically, I still wanted during the transitional arrangements. The annual canvass to vote. What a palaver it was getting that postal vote, will happen in 2014, when the data-matching exercise so thank goodness the Bill does not include postal vote will be going on. My main concern relates to households provisions. in which people remain on the register. People who 1215 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1216 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Julie Elliott] finances are very tight. My own authority has experienced and is still experiencing massive cuts. However, I think remain on the register because they are on the household that the Government should put money into ensuring and DWP records will automatically retain their postal that the system works, because otherwise the results votes if they have applied for indefinite ones. However, could be disastrous. if authorities are satisfied that they live at those addresses I think that the proposal to use the 2014 canvass for because they have checked their own housing benefit or the next round of boundary reviews is a dangerous one council tax records, those people will remain on the with massive implications. It is possible that we will not register but their indefinite postal votes will fall, and end up with the best register that we have ever had at the they will have to reapply. I think that some confusion first attempt: as everyone knows, when something is will be caused when one member of a household retains done for the first time there are teething problems. It is a postal vote and another does not. Some of the charities not the best way of ensuring democracy in this country, that represent people with disabilities fear that such and I think that it is a very negative step. people may be disfranchised. We get things right in Sunderland because we are In my constituency, there is currently a mini-canvass organised, and because we provide proper resources for in February. People are sent a letter telling them either elections and electoral registers. If we get the register that they are on the register or that they are not, and right to start with, we can get the postal and proxy votes that they do or do not have postal votes. They are asked right, and if there are enough people doing the job on to respond to the letter for the purpose of accuracy, and the ground, the elections themselves will be run properly. very few do not do so; it receives a massive response. I think that that is a good model to follow and that I hope the Government listen to the concerns I have adopting it would mop up some of the problems with raised. I have been as un-party political as possible, postal votes, particularly in the early years of the transition. because this is too important to get wrong. Members on I hope that the Government will consider providing both sides of the House have concerns, and this needs funds for it. The mini-canvass ensures that there are to be done properly. very few problems on election day, because if time has been taken to get the register and the postal vote 5.5 pm records right, not many people turn up wanting to vote Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure and finding that they are unable to do so. to follow the hon. Member for Sunderland Central My third concern relates to online registration. I have (Julie Elliott). She approached this subject in a constructive already mentioned problems involving national insurance manner, and I hope to do the same while offering some numbers. Not everyone knows their national insurance suggestions as to how the process could be improved. number. We saw a demonstration last week, and it was clear that if people did not have their national insurance It would be churlish not to celebrate the differences numbers, the system would stop. We raised the issue, between the current proposals and the Government’s and it is possible that it will be investigated. original announcements in the White Paper and the documents that went to the Select Committee for pre- Chris Ruane: I asked an outside computer expert at legislative scrutiny.That demonstrates that the Government the demonstration what would happen when people did have taken account of the consultation and have listened not have their national insurance numbers. I was told to what representatives from a range of organisations “We are working on that.” We know what has been said have said. They have made a lot of significant changes and what has happened in the past. Computer programmes to the Bill as a result. Among the most welcome are the costing hundreds of millions of pounds have been put changes to ensure that we get as full an electoral register in place, and they have not worked. We need to get this as possible. The negativity of Opposition Members one right. astounds me. This should be an opportunity to enhance the electoral list, and build a bigger list. I am shocked Julie Elliott: I could not agree more. It is not that I by some of the comments I have heard. am opposed to online registration—we must move with Many of the issues raised in Labour’s Opposition day the times, and people do more and more things online—but debate have been addressed. The opt-out provision has getting it right is very important. I have read about been removed from the form. There was a great deal of secondary ID involving passports and driving licences, controversy about that, but the Government listened but we should bear in mind that not everyone has a and responded. The Government have also yielded on passport or a driving licence. the civil penalty issue, and there has been action on the The Government need to listen to the experts who question of the canvass in 2014. As the hon. Member have been involved in the pilots and who run elections for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) said, the new individual and compile registers, because they are the people who voter registration scheme enables individuals to register really understand the details. The Government also and be responsible for their own vote, rightly taking need to ring-fence enough money. I welcomed what the responsibility away from the head of the household for Minister said about section 31 funding, but the provision registering everybody in the household, which was an of enough money is the key, particularly in the early outdated notion. I understand the point made by the years. The way in which the money will be distributed hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain or bid for is not yet clear; that needs to be considered McDonagh) about the importance and significance of carefully and spelt out to us before the next stage of the mothers, but we must all reach a point in our lives when process. we can make a judgment on these matters ourselves. A serious look should be taken at the rules governing Registering to vote is a civic duty, and having a postal voting. As we all know, in the world of cuts upon penalty for those who fail to do so serves to reflect that. cuts in which we are currently living, local authorities’ That has been in place for almost 100 years, since 1918, 1217 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1218 Administration Bill Administration Bill when the last Liberal-Conservative coalition introduced I have heard the rationale behind this provision—that a £20 fine, a sum that is equivalent to about £3,500 in future data matching will be sufficiently developed to today’s money. Since then, with all-party agreement, ensure that an annual canvass is not necessary—and in the House has agreed to maximum fines of £50 in that regard the example of Northern Ireland is often 1969, £100 in 1983, £400 in 1986 and £1,000 in 2001. I cited. I would like clarification of that rationale, but I welcome the fact that the Government are moving do note that clause 6 also gives the Minister the power along those lines in respect of civil penalties for individuals. to reinstate the annual canvass. Having no offence would also have meant there was no I am pleased that there will be the opportunity to incentive for local authorities to follow up on hard-to-reach register online, a positive step that will appeal to a lot of voters, who have as much right to be enfranchised as young people. Like the hon. Member for Sunderland anyone else. Central, I saw the presentation, which was impressive; The Government have also listened to the concerns however, there is a great deal of work to be done. The about the boundary changes, and concessions have point has been made—I made it myself in an been made. The Government are as keen as anyone that intervention—about the ease or otherwise with which we should have a complete and responsive electoral list. people can access their own national insurance number. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that only 5% of Mr David: On that point, does the hon. Gentleman people could not readily access their NI number. A not agree that it would be a good idea if the Government quick survey of my office in this place revealed that I listened to all the informed opinion, and delayed the was the only one out of four people who knew their NI implementation of a full new register until after the number. I doubt whether most of our constituents boundary changes? study their NI number on their payslips; perhaps they are more inclined to look at the other numbers. We need Mr Williams: The Opposition have been wallowing in clarity here, and to develop seamless ways in which conspiracy theories in this regard. The Government people can access their NI number. have made a huge number of concessions in order to As I have said before in this House, it is all very well ensure we have a complete electoral list on which to talking about accessing Government services on the base the new boundaries. The Government have responded internet in parts of the country where it is easy to do so: to the concerns expressed about the use of the register for those in west Wales—Ceredigion, for example—the for the jury service pool, and about credit check companies situation is very different. I am afraid that at the moment, and mortgage providers using it to check an individual’s 20% of my constituents cannot access anything on the background. Again, those considerations have been internet—the Government do have the worthy aspiration reflected in the changes made by the Government. to roll out broadband across the country—so there are limitations. That is why the traditional method of the I look forward to hearing more from the Government annual canvass is so significant in the registration of about the level of the penalties that will be set. I share voters. the impatience of the hon. Member for Caerphilly I was pleased to learn from the Government that (Mr David) in that regard, but the Government have funding will be set aside for each local authority to assured us that during the Bill’s passage, we will have implement the changes associated with IVR, and that the relevant draft secondary legislation. The hon. Gentleman extra money will be available through bidding. We can is right: we need to hear what penalties the Government all envisage places in our constituencies where that have in mind and what discussions have taken place on extra money would be put to good use. this issue. I will welcome the speedy emergence of that Ceredigion may not be characterised in the same way draft secondary legislation. that inner-city constituencies have been, but I represent I am also pleased that the Bill states that the money two universities. Students are traditionally hard-to-get-at raised will go to the Treasury, so that local authorities voters at election time and before. [Interruption.] The cannot be accused of using the failure to register as a hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain money-making venture. I wonder whether the Minister, McDonagh) speaks from a sedentary position; I have my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome no difficulty in speaking to my student voters, but (Mr Heath), can say whether the fine will be on the scale registering these people is challenging. I am well used to of a parking fine, for example. Will it operate in a seeing the piles of electoral registration forms heaped similar way—I hesitate to use that example; there are up in student pigeonholes in halls of residence and in many disreputable car-parking companies in our houses in multiple occupation, of which there are a constituencies—and will the fine increase if payment is huge number in my constituency. Huge numbers of not received within two weeks, as happens with some forms sit there untended as the months go by. They will parking fines? If, after one month, the person fined still require extra resources but, again, the Government have has not taken any action to register, will the fine be made those resources available and intimated that they repeated? These are legitimate questions, and we look will be available. forward to the speediest possible emergence of that I reinforce what the Minister said about the value of information. education. I used to be a teacher, and I believe there is I am very glad that the Government have decided to great merit in using the education system, as we have move the annual canvass from 2013 to 2014, so that the heard has happened in Northern Ireland, to promote gap between it and mass mailing is shorter. Hopefully, the registration of voters from sixth forms. That is a there will therefore be fewer significant changes. I remain practical way of engaging people in citizenship and a little concerned, however—in the spirit of consensus, assisting local authorities in registering new voters. this is perhaps another area of agreement between me I would also like to hear a little more about the and the hon. Member for Caerphilly—that clause 6 dissemination of best practice and the standardisation allows the relevant Minister to abolish the annual canvass. of electoral registration forms across the country. As the 1219 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1220 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mr Mark Williams] off the register and had the changes gone ahead as originally proposed, the Electoral Commission—not Minister knows, some very good examples are available. Chris Ruane, Labour MP—said that that figure would We have heard about Sunderland Central’s good record have gone up to 16 million. We would have been left in these matters. In order to please the hon. Member for without a properly functioning democracy. I give credit Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), I wish to mention the to the Government for listening to many calls from example of Denbighshire, which has sent out some Members on both sides of the House and from civic extremely effective forms and follow-up forms. We need society, but the Electoral Commission has stated that to disseminate the practice from Denbighshire across the registration rates could go down as low as 65%. other areas of the country. Crucially, such forms need I want to contrast the previous Labour Government’s to be bilingual in Wales. attitude to constitutional issues with that of the Conservative My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall and Liberal Government over the past two years right (Dan Rogerson) is concerned about the issue of second up until very recently. We never treated the issues as homes and the prominence of items on electoral registration party political, but pursued them in the interests of forms for people who own two residences. I want the democracy. In 2001, Labour instituted a rule that took civil penalty and the possible penalties that may be people—often quite poor people—off the register if levied to have real prominence on those forms. they failed to sign their electoral registration form for I also wish to highlight the concerns voiced by Scope, two years on the trot, as we wanted an accurate register. and I await the response from our Front-Bench team on Millions disappeared, mainly Labour voters. We did the issue of the carry-over of voters from 2014 to 2015, not do that for party political reasons, as it worked and on whether all postal and proxy voters have to against us. re-register. I was heartened by what the Minister said In 1998, we proposed proportional representation for about this applying only to those people who have not European elections. We did not have to do that, but we yet been dealt with through the data-matching pilots. If did because it was the right thing to do, and Labour that is not the case, the prospect of so many people who suffered in Wales, going from four MEPs to one. We have been used to having a postal or proxy vote for so had a Scottish consensus on Scottish devolution that many years, election after election, not being included is lasted for three or four years, and we introduced PR very alarming. That needs to be addressed. knowing that Labour would not get full control. I sum up by saying that this Government have made huge progress on this Bill. There are still matters that Mr Harper: Let me take the hon. Gentleman back to need to be ironed out and that we need to reflect on in the subject of the European election system. He said Committee, but compared with where we were at the that the previous Government always operated by time of the Labour Opposition motion before, the Bill consensus, so why did they feel the urge to ram that is vastly improved. That is why Government Members legislation through using the Parliament Acts? will be supporting it tonight. Chris Ruane: It was the right thing to do. I personally did not think that that was the right thing to do, but my 5.18 pm Government did and they overrode my voice from the Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): It is a pleasure Back Benches. and an honour to follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion When PR for local government was introduced in (Mr Williams), who has been a staunch campaigner on Scotland, it worked against the Labour Government. these issues for many years, ever since I informed him Labour delivered individual electoral registration in that his Bronglais ward had the worst registration rate 2009. Throughout our period in office, we operated in the whole of Wales, at just 56%. consensually and for a better functioning democracy. I wish to touch on a number of issues. I have had a What happened under the previous Conservative big interest in this subject for 10 years, and I have tabled Government? The poll tax was pursued as a means of about 300 parliamentary questions and spoken many pushing people off the register and Dame Shirley Porter times in Parliament on it. We all thought that there were undertook social cleansing in Westminster to secure 3 million to 3.5 million people missing off the register. party political advantage. This Government’s original Two or two and a half years ago, I had a meeting with proposals sent a shiver down my spine, much like that people from Experian, who told me that the real figure recently experienced by Ms Lagarde. The agreed date was nearer 6 million to 6.5 million. I took that figure to for individual electoral registration, on which there was the Electoral Commission, which said that it was not consensus, was brought back from 2015 to 2014 and the true. It then undertook its own research and, lo and date of the next election was put back to the last behold, it said last November that 6 million to 6.5 million possible date of 2015. Either the Deputy Leader of the people were missing off the register—but they were not House or the Parliamentary Secretary can intervene at the same as Experian’s missing 6 million, so even more this point, as we still have not had a satisfactory answer people may be missing off the register. I mentioned in on the reason for the decisions. Was it happenstance or an intervention that I think that the private sector has a accident, or was there a political agenda? role to play in helping us to improve the registers. It has the detail already and we should be listening to it. Mr Harper: It is very simple. We put through the The profiles of the missing 6 million people include, Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 because we thought in the main, the poor, those living in social or council that it was sensible and that the Prime Minister’s right housing, those on the minimum wage, the unemployed, to pick an election date at a time of his choosing to suit black and ethnic minority people and young people. At his party political convenience was wrong. We took that the moment, 6 million people fitting those profiles are power away and that was a step forward. 1221 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1222 Administration Bill Administration Bill Chris Ruane: The Minister has given me half the I am pleased with the carry-over from the old register answer, but why did the Government bring the agreed to the general election in May 2015, but why could it date of 2015 for IER forward to 2014? not be carried over to 1 December, the freeze date for The Tories have mainly acted on such issues with a the next boundary review? It is only six months further party political advantage as the main thing that they down the line. Opposition Members feel that it is a want to pursue. The equalisation of seats should not boundary review stitch-up, done in the knowledge that have gone ahead with 6 million people missing from the electoral registration rates will go down by 10% in the register. I do not want to be too curmudgeonly, that critical period. That will leave 10% of probably the however. poorest people in the country off the register. That could be avoided. The Minister could come to the Mrs Laing: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s Dispatch Box and say, “Right, we will carry it over an argument on party political advantage, but is he actually extra six months,”and he would have cross-party consensus suggesting that someone who is likely to vote Labour is on taking these matters forward. more likely to fail in their civic duty to register to vote I am concerned about downgrading the role of the than someone who is likely to vote Conservative? Electoral Commission. I have been a fierce critic of the Electoral Commission over the years. The changes that Chris Ruane: I am saying that the Electoral Commission’s Labour introduced in 2005-06 took too long to implement. research into who has been left off the register shows We did not insist on electoral registration officers doing that in the main they are unemployed or low paid; live the job that they were being paid to do, but in the past in social or council housing; are black or ethnic minority year or so the Electoral Commission has been a star people; or are young students. The hon. Lady can draw turn. It has highlighted what the impact would be if the her own conclusions about which way they would vote, original proposals had gone ahead, again saying that but I do not think they would vote Tory. electoral registration rates would have gone down to I want to get on to a more positive agenda and give 65%. The commission may have been punished for its those on the Front Bench some praise for what they effectiveness over the past year. have done. That have listened, to some degree, and there As the secondary legislation unfolds, a lot more political are four aspects that I shall highlight. I want also to flack may be coming. We need an independent arbiter praise the Labour Front-Bench team, the shadow Secretary who can give a straight-down-the-line view.If we downgrade of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member the role of the Electoral Commission, we are taking for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), and my hon. Friend the away a valuable element providing that independent Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), who has pursued view. the issue like a dog with a bone. We would not have had the concessions from the Government without his I understand the Government’s predicament on fixed doggedness; I use that word guardedly. penalty notices. They do not want to create a system whereby local authorities can go out and fire those Civic society has rallied on the issue. Two groups in notices left, right and centre and get lots of money for particular answered the clarion call two years ago, when themselves, which would be wrong, but the local authorities the proposals were announced—the Electoral Reform that will spend the most money will often be the poorest Society and Unlock Democracy. They have helped take in the country. There will be cuts to social services and the issue out to wider society, to civic society, and made education. They will be forced to decide whether to people aware of it—the judiciary, the police, Operation prioritise electoral registration, and canvassing is something Black Vote, Scope and other organisations. I pay tribute they are required to do by law, knocking on the doors of to all those and to the academics who provided us with non-responders three times, which is costly. Those local research. The progress that has been made is good, as authorities need financing for that work. I ask for that far as it goes. From being a lifestyle choice, which in my to be considered so that some of the money from the view was obscene, the right to register has become a Treasury can be given back to the authorities with the civic duty. I thank Ministers for that. biggest work load. The annual canvass, which was not in place previously, We need the details of the secondary legislation to be will be in place for 2014. That is progress. The fixed published concurrently so that we can judge exactly penalty notice is probably the biggest progress that we what the impact will be. I am afraid that trust will not have had. Again, I thank the Front-Bench team for do on this one; we tried trust two years ago and got only that. I hate to say it, but threats and fines work. The an element of it back in the past couple of weeks. hon. Member for Ceredigion referred to Denbighshire county council’s electoral registration form. In the I mentioned online registration in an intervention. I middle of that form, in big bold letters, is a message: went to see a demonstration of it in the Jubilee Room, “If you do not fill in this form, you are liable to a £1,000 and when I asked what happens for those who do not fine.” People will be visited and told three times have their number, it was like throwing a spanner in the that they are liable to this fine. The local chief works. I was told that no one had yet got on top of it. executive, Mohammed Mehmet, will write to the The Minister said that 5% of people will be unable to individual—I have the letters and the forms, if anybody find their registration number or their national insurance wants a copy—saying, “My electoral registration number. What happens to the ethnic minorities who do officers have been to your household three time. You not have a good understanding of the English language? have refused to return the form. We are now turning this What happens to people who are functionally illiterate? over to our legal department.” If standardisation is to We will send them letters telling them to go here or come about—another aspect that I welcome—I urge there, apply for a form, then fill it in and put it online, the Front-Bench team to look at best practice in but that will not happen. Again, it will tend to be the Denbighshire. poorest in society who will be punished as a result. 1223 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1224 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Chris Ruane] I have no doubt that the enthusiasm of a small number of people to try to ensure victory for their side We need precise details on how the £108 million of continues to result in behaviour that is not only funding will be ring-fenced and spent. If it is allocated inappropriate, but unlawful. Persistent rumours and for registration, it should be spent on registration. We allegations of postal vote fraud accompany that saw in the emergency Budget in June 2010 that the first intimidatory behaviour. This year, the local authority thing the Government slashed was the participation raised concerns with the police about the similarity of fund for increasing registration, which was £2 million the handwriting on a large number of postal votes; and over three years. It was not a priority then, but I hope it some people turned up to vote only to be told that, will be in future. according to the register, they already had by post, The Government point to Labour and say that we did when they clearly had not or, at least, had not done so nothing for 13 years and had 6 million people off the themselves. I do not know whether the result of the register. There is a golden opportunity to change that, election was affected, but that really is the point: I do but the Minister said at the outset that after all is done not know. and dusted and all these changes have been implemented You may wonder, Madam Deputy Speaker, why that they hope to have 6 million people—perhaps a different behaviour has been going on for so long. Why have the 6 million—still off the register. I do not think that that police not investigated it? Why has no one got to the is good enough. bottom of the repeated allegations of postal fraud which, if untrue, represent a dreadful slur on the community Several hon. Members rose— concerned? According to local people, including those Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. affected, the answer is said to involve that word: community. This debate has to finish at 7 o’clock. In order to fit in When asked to take this year’s allegations seriously, everybody who has been in the Chamber waiting patiently the police, so the complaint goes, referred to “community to speak, I regret that it is necessary for me to reduce the sensitivities” and showed a reluctance to engage which time limit to nine minutes, from the next speaker. has defined their response in previous years. Why is Interventions should occur only if they are absolutely that? It is because all those who are said to be involved necessary and truly interventions, because otherwise we are from Savile Town’s Asian community, a minority of will not even get those Members in. individuals who appear to insist that they know best and who take it upon themselves to ensure that someone 5.33 pm else’s vote is cast however they think fit. Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con): I am grateful for It is hugely insulting to the vast majority of Savile the opportunity to speak in the debate and, indeed, to Town’s community that the police appear reluctant to follow the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris act. That is so, whether the police are prepared to Ruane). The electoral process is something that we all regard sensitivities as more important than the democratic have experience of, but it is clear from the contribution process, or whether the police think it appropriate to we have heard today that we have encountered it in a make an allowance due, as they put it, to a number of different forms. If it varies between the “lack of understanding of the process.” good, the bad and the ugly, I am afraid that I have seen The former is to ignore the legitimate sensitivities of the at first hand its downright ugly form. The central purpose vast majority, who must resent this issue being the local of the Bill is to ensure that individual voters retain headline every time there is a ballot, and who no doubt ownership and control of their vote right up to the want it resolved once and for all. The latter is to make moment when, either by post or in person, their vote is condescending allowances that excuse deliberate criminal cast, which is absolutely crucial. activity—and is offensive in the assumption that, somehow I realise that to many that is simply a statement of the for some people in Savile Town, it is all too difficult. very obvious. The idea that the voter retains control of I thought it appropriate to raise with the chief constable their vote until it is cast is anticipated almost with of West Yorkshire my intention to refer to this topic certainty at every election, but unfortunately, owing to and my observations regarding the attitude of the police. the actions of a relatively small number of individuals I did so not least because he might seek to challenge the in one part of my constituency, it represents a change assertion that the issue is being held at arm’s length, or that is essential and, sadly, long overdue. is regarded as too difficult, because of the matter of For some years in the Savile Town area of my race. I know that the chief constable of West Yorkshire constituency, annual elections have gone hand in hand is a busy man—to be fair, so is the Member for with annual allegations of voter fraud and intimidation. Dewsbury—but the message left on my telephone by his In 2010, I saw the intimidation for myself. I witnessed assistant, informing me that the chief constable had groups of young men outside a polling station, whispering, been busy on Monday, was travelling on Tuesday to spitting, gesturing, milling around and pushing in front Manchester for a conference and, therefore, could not of me. Having to leave a group of people to guard cars speak to me, might seem to confirm the reticence repeatedly should not be a part of polling day, nor should warnings complained of by the vast majority, who are the decent to stay away or to leave. citizens of Savile Town and who have rightly bemoaned I have spoken to the police officers who have to deal the lack of proactive investigation. It also does little to with the situation, and I have heard the accounts of silence those who would try to incite hatred in Dewsbury those manning the polling stations. When I saw that the by saying that people in Savile Town are somehow Bill contained provisions for police community support treated differently by the police. The lesson of the recent officers to enter polling stations, my first reaction was trial arising from the dreadful abuse in Rochdale is that that it was to allow reinforcements to be called, not that all communities must be treated equally where there is they would operate as an alternative to police constables. evidence to suggest that police investigation is required. 1225 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1226 Administration Bill Administration Bill Perhaps the most important right is the right to for our cities, whereas this measure, together with the vote. Perhaps the most important responsibility is to boundary review and the other reforms, will reduce the exercise that right in accordance with the law. If the Bill voice of our cities. encourages and facilitates that right and assists in the The other issue I want to talk about is young people, exercise of that responsibility, it will be a step in the particularly students. Not all students are young, but right direction. the vast majority are, and will increasingly be so as a result of this Government’s policies, with reports this 5.40 pm week revealing a drop in the number of mature students. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): The hon. Many of those young people are worryingly disillusioned Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) made guarded with democratic politics. The Liberal Democrats’ broken and thoughtful remarks, but I am concerned about the pledge on tuition fees has not only damaged their party undertones of some Government Members’ speeches. but damaged the trust in politics of a whole generation To my knowledge, in the city of Sheffield, which is a of young people. When I talk to students on the doorstep, large and multicultural city, only one person has ever they are clear that that experience of raised expectations been convicted of electoral fraud—fairly widespread and broken hope has led them to not want to participate electoral fraud—and he was a member of our white in the system. community and, indeed, a member of one of the coalition Both Sheffield’s great universities are in my constituency parties. and 31,800 students live in it. Some of them live there for 31 weeks a year and many for 52. It is their main Chris Ruane: Which one? place of residence and they contribute to the economy and life of the city. They have a right to have their voice Paul Blomfield: I will tell you later. heard in elections. I want to express my concern about how this Bill will The university of Sheffield, in common with many profoundly undermine our democracy by reference to universities across the country, has a system of block two groups in my constituency, the first of which is registration for all eligible students in university those in urban areas. Let me compare my constituency accommodation. That will end with this Bill. I assume with that of my political neighbour, the right hon. that the Government do not think that our universities Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg). My constituency are guilty of electoral fraud, so why is there a need to is at the heart of Sheffield. It is an inner-city, multicultural outlaw block registration? area with large council estates, two universities, and a The students union finance officer, Harry Horton, high level of electoral turnover. As a result, 17% of explained the impact to me: households already have nobody on the electoral register. “When students first arrive at University and live in halls, The Deputy Prime Minister’s constituency consists of amongst all the other things that are going on, registering to vote our leafy suburbs; it is monocultural with large areas of often isn’t a priority and it is comforting to know that it’s often comfortable owner-occupation, a stable population, and done automatically. If this is changed then it would become only 4% of households with nobody on the register. another form to fill in during the whirlwind first few weeks away There is therefore already a huge disparity between the from home and some students, particularly those not engaged in number of people we represent and the number of democracy, will not be registered”. registered voters. Assuming, on the basis of current Crucially, students will be particularly under-registered boundaries, that we both have an average of 74,000 in the first term of each academic year. The students registered voters, the Deputy Prime Minister is representing unions of both the universities in my constituency run an adult population of about 77,000 while I am representing vigorous electoral registration campaigns in the run-up about 89,000 people. to elections—in February, March and April—that work. That situation will be exacerbated in 2020 if the 2015 The Bill will effectively exclude tens of thousands of boundary review is based on the register that many students—my constituents—from the electoral roll in people fear. If we do have 60% registration levels, a December 2015, and therefore from consideration when redrawn Sheffield Central after the 2015 boundary review the boundaries are redrawn, denying them an effective will have an adult population of up to 123,000—some voice. 50% more than in Sheffield, Hallam. I recognise that the level may not be 60%, but we should consider Mrs Laing: Surely the hon. Gentleman is vastly seriously that significant imbalance in a depleted inner-city underestimating the ability of the average student to fill constituency. It is certainly not democratic and certainly in a form. We are talking about people who have three not right. A-levels and who, in most cases, are going to get a Many of the people who will be excluded from the difficult degree. They can fill in a form to allow themselves register are precisely those who form a huge proportion to vote. of our casework, and their voice in this Parliament will be reduced. Together with the Parliamentary Voting Paul Blomfield: I am simply reflecting the views that System and Constituencies Act 2011, the Bill is leading have been expressed to me by the elected representatives us towards a US-style democracy that excludes the of the students, and I take their concerns seriously. disadvantaged and disengaged at election times and The students at the university of Sheffield have tried instead focuses on the needs of the more privileged, hard, but unsuccessfully, to meet their other constituency thereby poisoning our politics. The Deputy Prime Minister MP, the Deputy Prime Minister, who represents a smaller has rather grandly compared his ambitions for our number of them, albeit still several thousand. I understand democracy with those of the Great Reform Act of why he is less keen to meet students now than he was 1832. [Interruption.] I understand the reason for the during the general election campaign, when he worked laughter. The Great Reform Act increased representation the two campuses relentlessly with his party’s unequivocal 1227 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1228 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Paul Blomfield] who were registered to vote and political activists going around the homes of vulnerable voters harvesting their promise on tuition fees. I challenge him today—I ask blank postal vote ballot papers. There was apparently the Minister to convey this to him—to agree, finally, to also a huge proliferation in the number of people applying meet the representatives of students in his constituency for postal votes. Thankfully, a police investigation is to discuss their concerns. now taking place, but my hon. Friend the Member for There is no good reason to accelerate the timetable Dewsbury highlighted the fact that he had a difficult for introducing individual electoral registration, other time in getting the police engaged with some of the than to have the system in place for the 2015 boundary problems in his constituency. review in the knowledge of what impact that will have The failure of election officials to pick up on problems on the 2020 general election. The Minister rightly talked such as a large number of people in a small dwelling in his opening remarks about the importance of the being registered to vote reflects badly on our democracy. integrity of the electoral system and of people’s confidence That is why this is absolutely the right Bill. It will in its integrity. However, the Government’s plans, taken support individuals’ right to secure their place on the with the 2011 Act, will understandably be seen to be electoral register, and it will reduce the chance of people some of the most outrageous gerrymandering seen in being able to abuse the electoral process in such a way. this country. That will undermine confidence in the system. The Government are riding roughshod over It is essential that robust action is taken against democracy in the interests of party advantage. I urge election officials and authorities that fail to take reasonable them to think again. and proactive steps to stamp out illegal practice. My hon. Friend the Minister highlighted the good deal of thought that has gone into the Bill. Many constructive 5.48 pm steps are being taken, such as resources going to local Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I have taken a degree of authorities and data-matching pilots being conducted. I interest in the Bill, but unlike the hon. Member for Vale hope that all local authorities will embrace those measures of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) I cannot say that I have had a and be proactive in resolving problems and considering 10-year interest in the matter, as I am a new Member of electoral registration. Parliament. I also welcome the extension of the election timetable This debate has thrown up a wide range of issues. I to 25 working days, particularly because it will help pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury British citizens overseas and members of our armed (Simon Reevell), because he highlighted some important forces deployed abroad. Our forces are stationed in issues. That is why I support the Bill and the commitment some of the most dangerous places in the world, and of the Government to reduce electoral fraud, to restore they risk their lives every day. In the general election, confidence in the electoral register and to rebuild trust they were effectively disfranchised. The changes in the in politics. I say that as a newish MP. It is clear that over Bill will give them more time to receive and return their the past decade trust in the political process and political ballot paper. parties has seriously declined. Let us face it, no party Up the road from my constituency is the neighbouring has been immune from scandals or sleaze allegations. constituency of Colchester. My constituents are immensely The Bill is a welcome step in the right direction. proud of the courage and bravery that those at Colchester My hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon garrison show, and of what they do in peacekeeping Reevell) and other Members highlighted some operations and in battle. Everything possible should be appalling incidents of electoral fraud. Large numbers done to guarantee that they can vote, and the measures of voters have appeared in a single property, or political in the Bill will help them to do so. activists have harvested postal votes. The Bill is vital because it will uphold the integrity of the electoral I wish briefly to touch on voting as a civic duty. As a system and reinforce the fundamental principle of one relatively new Member of Parliament, as I go around person, one vote. It will make it more difficult for my constituency, I am impressed and feel optimistic people to attempt to manipulate elections by abusing about young people when I visit schools. When I talk to the electoral register. them about elections, the electoral process and democracy, they look at the system with a great deal of hope, and A lot of Members who have come to the House they want to participate. School elections go on all the since 2010 have had various experiences of elections, time—for school councils, for example. A great deal of such as local elections, European elections and their positive work can be done, and the Bill is a welcome own general election campaigns. They bring to the step forward. House fresh, live examples of what they have seen in their constituencies. I will raise one highly topical issue, with which the Parliamentary Secretary is familiar. I seek reassurance The Electoral Commission has since 2003advocated from him that the Bill will not be used as a vehicle to the introduction of individual electoral registration. We enable prisoners to receive the right to vote. We have had a startling reminder of the need for the change in heard the latest position, and the Prime Minister spoke the build-up to this year’s London elections. I am sure about the matter today. It is a serious issue, and I trust right hon. and hon. Members will recall that during the that the Parliamentary Secretary will give an assurance mayoral election campaign, one newspaper—I wish I in his winding-up speech that the Bill will not be used in had brought it with me—had front-page stories week that way. after week about reports and allegations of the electoral system being abused in Tower Hamlets. I welcome the Bill, which is a good step in the right Appallingly, we heard of ghost voting in a by-election in direction. It should not be considered through a party that borough, with some flats containing eight people political lens. 1229 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1230 Administration Bill Administration Bill 5.55 pm canvass back to spring 2014 to prevent significant deterioration of the registers before the introduction of Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) IER, although that will presumably mean an 18-month (PC): I want to use the opportunity this afternoon to gap and deterioration in the registers from this year’s repeat the concerns that I first raised in January in an canvass until spring 2014. How will that affect EROs Opposition day debate on the subject. and preparation of registers for the European elections First, I am concerned that, although the proposals of June 2014, and the Scottish independence referendum, have a worthy goal, we are ignoring the difficulties which is due to be held later that year? posed by the dual aims of ensuring the highest number of registrations on the electoral roll, while at the same The effects of the Bill moved a little closer to home time solving the problem of electoral fraud. Secondly, for me this week, with the publication of a Green Paper and especially given the experience of an 11% drop in on future electoral arrangements for the National Assembly electoral registration in Northern Ireland in the immediate for Wales by the Secretary of State for Wales. I do not aftermath of the introduction of IER, I am concerned intend to discuss that very interesting Green Paper in that the proposals are being introduced at the same time detail during the debate, but in short the Secretary of as other major changes, such as the equalisation of State highlighted options for constituency size in Wales, constituency sizes, based on the electoral roll. There is based on the same principle as that for equalisation of surely consensus that the preferred outcome is that all numbers on the electoral roll for Westminster constituencies: adults who should be registered on the electoral roll are whether we have 30 or 40 Assembly constituency seats. registered, and that they participate in elections. Everybody That means that the concerns I have raised about the should be on the electoral roll and have the opportunity effect of electoral registration matter regardless. Members to cast their vote. will know that during the progress of that 2011 Act, I consistently criticised the principle of ignoring community, The principle of individual electoral registration is historical and geographical links in the formation of positive, in that electors should take upon themselves new constituencies. Non-registration therefore becomes the responsibility to register to vote in their own right, crucial in both Assembly and Westminster elections. rather than its being done under the aegis of a household. Not only is a non-registered person unable to vote and All relevant people should be willing and able to register, disfranchised, but the population of the constituency and have the same opportunity to do so. However, there decreases, because those “non-people” are not counted. may be a disconnect between the equality of opportunity to register, where all relevant people may do so, and the Of similar importance is the length of time for which equality of outcome, where all relevant people do so. registration is carried forward under IER as we move to the new system. The Minister can correct me if I have The Electoral Commission reported in December misunderstood this, but it is generally considered that 2010 that 6 million people were not registered across the most people who are moved forward will be registered UK, with register completion rates of between 85% to in 2015 for the Westminster elections, but will not be 87%. It is unclear to me how IER, which creates a carried forward for a second year, which would take us greater barrier to registration, will ensure that as many up to the National Assembly for Wales elections in people as possible are on the electoral roll. While accepting 2016. The Electoral Commission makes specific reference that it is always a worry, the number of cases of electoral to those with postal or proxy votes and the possibility fraud that have been uncovered are minimal compared of adverse impacts on participation after the introduction with the need to get those 6 million people on to the of IER. It will be a tragedy if, owing to administrative electoral register. We therefore welcome the decision to changes, electors in Wales find themselves unable to drop the idea of voluntary registration, which was vote in their national elections. I hope that, in his raised in the White Paper, and to maintain the civic winding-up speech, the Minister outlines how he will duty. prevent that nightmare scenario. Electoral registration has a greater relevance than Clause 14 repeals section 16 of the Representation of ever following the Parliamentary Voting System and the People Act 1985, which is on holding community Constituencies Act 2011, which will create constituencies council elections in Wales. Will the Minister confirm that are designed to have a number of voters within the process by which that decision was reached in 5% of a UK constituency mean, predicated on the respect of Wales, and whether the power to determine number of electors on the electoral roll, rather than the election dates for such elections lies with the UK actual adult population. Government or the Welsh Government? Many people are particularly concerned about I conclude by repeating my key argument. The main registration among certain socio-economic and age groups, aim of electoral registration is to ensure the completion including more transient populations, such as young and accuracy of the register. With so much change people, who move house frequently, and those who are taking in electoral administration as a result of the 2011 already disconnected from civic society, and may not Act, I am concerned that we might inadvertently end up make the effort to register. disfranchising electors and skewing the electoral system. When IER was first introduced in the north of Ireland, the number on the roll dropped initially by 11% and has only gradually been rebuilt over time, in part, one might 6.1 pm say, because of the strong community links that exist in Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) the Six Counties. We must avoid that drop in registration (Con): I have been involved in this issue for the past occurring in the first place. 30 years, having trained to be a Conservative party The Government have already announced a process agent in Wanstead and Woodford, which was next door of data-matching pilots and we shall watch their progress to the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for keenly. We welcome the moving of the autumn 2013 Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). That was a most interesting 1231 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1232 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Oliver Colvile] 6.7 pm time. If the gentlemen who trained me were alive today, Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I was interested he would be somewhat horrified that I am involved in to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland the debate, because he had been Winston Churchill’s Central (Julie Elliott) explain why Sunderland nearly agent for the last year of his parliamentary career. always gets its count done first, whereas in Edinburgh we tend to be propping our eyelids open at 5 am, It is interesting to be involved in this debate with the waiting for our results. It is about having the resources—in hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain that case, the resources to get the count done, but in this McDonagh), who was in the Chamber recently, for the case the resources to get registration done and so on. simple reason that, for 10 years, I was the Tory party Those resources will be important when we implement agent in that constituency, where I worked for Angela the proposal. Rumbold, who was a very distinguished politician—she was not only an Education Minister but a Home Office Unlike a couple of my hon. Friends, I am not saying Minister. that individual voter registration should not be happening, I am keen to support the Bill because it is about and, to be fair, that is not Labour’s position either. After ensuring that individuals take responsibility for their all, Labour introduced legislation on this in the previous own lives and decide whether or not they want to be on Parliament. We are asking, however, why it is necessary, the electoral register. We must do everything we can to in effect, to re-legislate. There was already a proposal encourage those people to ensure that they are registered. and timetable for individual voter registration. Having My hon. Friend the Minister has included a number of heard the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), measures in the Bill that will help in that respect. my colleague on the Political and Constitutional Reform Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport is—surprise, Committee, I have to ask why she has apparently changed surprise—the home of the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, her mind about the timetable. When the original legislation 3 Commando Brigade and 29 Commando. The hon. was going through, she supported that timetable and Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) mentioned said how important it was that it be done carefully and the university in his city. Plymouth is also a university step by step. She now expresses her concern, however, city; it has the third largest university in the country. It that a further two years have elapsed to get to this point. is also a dispersal centre for asylum seekers. That was partly because her Government have chosen to re-legislate. If the original timetable had been adhered I am curious as to why Labour Members have been to, we would have been making the step-by-step progress critical of the individual registration measures in the she appeared to think would be good. Bill, because the previous Labour Government decided that it was no longer possible for the commanding officers at 29 Commando, the Royal Navy base or Mrs Laing: I thank the hon. Lady for allowing me to Stonehouse barracks to hand over a list of people answer her question. I have not changed my mind. serving in their units. The then Government decided During the last Parliament, I said that it was equally that everyone had to make a service declaration, and important to ensure that we improved the accuracy and that has had a devastating effect on the number of the comprehensiveness of the register, but that we wished service personnel registering. We must do everything to do it more quickly than the then Government— possible to encourage them. It would be unfortunate [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Penistone and were we to say that service personnel were lesser people Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) is shaking her head, but I who did not need the opportunity to register and vote. know what I said. I said that those provisions could be It is vital that electoral registration officers in Plymouth brought in more quickly, if it was done carefully and in and other garrison towns should be forced to hold a measured way, and I have always adhered to that view, registration surgeries, speak to the commanding officers because that would bring benefits to the voting people and ensure that those people register. of this country. The story is similar for universities. Whenever I go knocking on doors in my constituency, I find that the Sheila Gilmore: I thank the hon. Lady for clarifying previous occupants—students who gave up a year or the position, although I still think, given the comments two before—have moved on and that the new occupants that she made previously, that she had been prepared to have not registered. Many houses in my constituency support the previous timetable. are multi-occupancy. We need to address that issue. The process of pre-legislative scrutiny has been helpful, Electoral registration officers should also have stands at and the Government have clearly listened to the issues freshers’ fairs to ensure that people are registered. that were raised by the Select Committee, the Electoral As mentioned, there is also an issue with bad registration. Commission and others. That has been an important Some people who should not be here are on the electoral part of the process. It is an important part of the register. That is a key issue. It would be helpful were the process for any legislation, and the Select Committee Government willing to share information on asylum takes it very seriously. We make this comment frequently, seekers with local authorities to ensure that those people and we made it quite vociferously when the opportunity are not included on the register. The risk is that they get was not given to scrutinise some of the early constitutional lost in the whole thing. As hon. Members might know, legislation in this Parliament. I believe that my fellow candidates can ask the police to ask two questions of Select Committee members agree that that was detrimental any voter. The first is: are they the person on the to that legislation. The process has been valuable in this electoral register? The second is: are they the person case. Even if some of the issues remain unresolved, we residing at this address? I think there should be a third nevertheless got a response to the process. I hope that question: are they qualified to vote? It is important that we will see much more of this kind of scrutiny for other we crack down on people voting in this country who are legislation. The more debate, discussion and detailed not entitled to do so. scrutiny we have, the better. That kind of scrutiny is not 1233 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1234 Administration Bill Administration Bill always possible in Committee, whether on the Floor of their local communities, if given the appropriate level of the House or upstairs, as time is often limited. The resources for the challenging set of circumstances in Select Committee process has therefore been helpful. which they have to do their job. We all go out and about, and we know just how variable registration can be. That is one of my major Sheila Gilmore: That is exactly my point. It is not just concerns about the Bill. When I walk down a street of about the levels of population within an area, as variability bungalows and villas in my constituency, I can be sure is also important. Far more work will have to be done in that I will knock on every door in that street, because all areas with such difficulties, as the data matching will the people living there are on the electoral register. simply not happen in the circumstances I was describing. Equally, in other parts of the constituency, the number It is not because people do not exist or are in any way of registered households can be as low as two or three phantoms on the register, but simply because there are of the 10 or 12 on a stair in a tenement. Edinburgh is a two sets of data identifying the same property in a very city of tenements. There are modern flats and also different way. That difficulty will be thrown up in the traditional tenements, and many people living in them process. In those circumstances, certain areas will require are not registered. more resources to ensure that people are registered. Perhaps I misunderstood, but the hon. Member for The decline in registration is worrying, and it is Peterborough (Mr Jackson) seemed to suggest that the worrying that in some parts of our communities so few fall in the numbers of people registered during the past people are taking even the first step towards registration year was somehow to be placed at the door of the to vote. Being registered to vote is, of course, no guarantee previous Government because they wanted registration that people will vote, but if they are not registered, they to fall. What has actually happened is a substantial certainly cannot vote. change in certain types of housing tenure. Finally, I would like to hear more from the Minister In Edinburgh, the proportion of people living in the about the extent to which the Government want to private sector was between 6% and 7% in the late 1990s, encourage somewhat more innovative ways of getting but it is now 20%-plus and, in some areas, between 30% people to register—not just through the canvass and and 40%. That is important, because the time spent by other traditional ways. Would it be possible, as happens people living in that form of tenure is shorter. Most in some countries and as some commentators have private lets are shorter; people have to move on. In that suggested, to offer people the opportunity to register situation, perhaps they do not form the same commitment when they are involved in other transactions with the to their community, and sometimes they have no sooner state? If, for example, people were applying for a driving registered themselves than they are moving on. Not all licence—that is particularly appropriate for young people— the tenements have lifts, especially the old-style ones. I could they not be offered the opportunity to register? think that the highest such building in my constituency We cannot make them register, but that would provide is five storeys high—or six, if we are using the British the opportunity to do so. naming of floors. Having puffed my way up to the top, I Perhaps even more valuable for the future, would it often find that the people who were registered as living not be possible, given all the systems we have, to allow there have moved on, and that the new tenants have not people both to register and to vote at the same time? yet registered. It is a particular issue in certain areas. Most people are of course most interested in voting when It is important that the additional money promised an election campaign is going on. We have all encountered by the Government is spent on the process of ensuring people suddenly realising that they are not able to vote that registration happens properly. Even the data matching at the point when they want to do so. Allowing people will be quite differential. My hon. Friend the Member to register and to vote at the same time might be for Sunderland Central touched on that, explaining that difficult, but it certainly happens in many states in in some areas the data-matching pilots had shown only America. I urge the Government to look at as many a 55% match—not the two thirds that the Government different ways of getting people to register as possible. have mentioned. Why is that important for the size of the register? If 6.19 pm the aim is to move people over as a result of data Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I apologise to matching—that was not its original purpose, although I the House for having been absent for some 90 minutes. I accept that it has considerable benefit, helping to ensure am grateful to you for calling me, Mr Speaker. that people do not find themselves off the register—areas I entirely support the direction and aims of the Bill, such as Edinburgh, which has many varied styles of but as the Minister will know from some of our earlier description for tenement flats, help to explain why conversations, I want to press him on one or two data-matching will not work. For example, the way in matters and ask him for his thoughts. I should like him which flats are referred to within tenements is often perhaps to go a little bit further. quite variable. Some flats are referred to in some records as “stair 9/1, stair 9/2, stair 9/3” and so forth, whereas Let us start from the premise that in many boroughs they are called something quite different in other registers and districts throughout the country it is harder to for the same address—perhaps strange things like “1F1, obtain a library card than to exercise one’s franchise, 1F2, 2F2” or something rather peculiar like “PF1”, which is a state of affairs that has left us open to the which puzzled me for a long time, as I thought it might possibility of fraudulent use of that franchise by people refer to a platform, but it refers, in fact, to the ground who are on the electoral register when they are not floor. entitled to be. Indeed, people are sometimes encouraged to act in that way. A council employee may simply Gavin Shuker: It strikes me that my hon. Friend is knock on people’s doors between certain months of the advancing the point that individual electoral registration year and take their details without requiring them to officers and returning officers are well placed to understand prove their qualification or identification. 1235 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1236 Administration Bill Administration Bill Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): A major problem Under the current electoral system, signing up for a at present is that the previous occupants of the home postal vote, and therefore being able to exercise the vote may be on the electoral register along with the current without going to the polling station, is easier, and there occupants—and, if they themselves have moved again, is potential for the use of false names. There will be a third set of occupants. That problem has never been some improvement in that regard, but we must consider dealt with, but the Bill will remedy it. the timetabling of the Bill, and the fact that many key elements, such as individual registration, will not be put Nick de Bois: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He has in place until 2014, given the two years it will take for anticipated a point that I shall be making later if time individuals to drop off the register. Therefore, the 2014 permits. general election will be fought using fundamentally the There has been a suggestion that there is limited same register as before, but with an increased possibility evidence of fraud, and some Opposition Members have that it will not be as clean a register as we would like. I suggested that there is no such evidence. I remind the fail to understand why we are not trying to focus on the House that last year I took a random sample of 100 people 2015 election. I realise that Ministers have been criticised who had been to my constituency seeking leave to for introducing these measures too swiftly, but I am remain, and who had absolutely no right to vote in this trying to understand what trade-off has been agreed so country. Of those people, 21 were on the electoral roll. I that we are not seeking to put the changes in place for repeated the exercise this year, and it produced a similar the next general election. result. Like many other Members, I welcome the extension of the election period to 25 days. However, if I have Oliver Colvile: Might not this be one of the reasons: a read the proposals correctly, it will be possible to apply piece of paper comes through the door, it looks official for a postal vote up to six days before the general and people feel that they should reply? They think that election. Does that not present some demanding challenges they are being incredibly good and behaving themselves, for electoral returning officers—I am happy to be able but in reality they are filling in a form when they should to say that we in Enfield we have one of the best—in not be doing so in the first place. verifying those records, and if there were some organised fraud in postal voting, would that not present an even Nick de Bois: My hon. Friend has far more experience tougher challenge? of these matters than I have. I believe that there are a The Bill’s provisions deal with fraudulent entries on multitude of reasons, including that one. I do not the electoral register, but very little is being done to deal believe that it is all about fraudulent intent, but it can with the growing problem of personation—the act of lead to the exercise of a franchise by someone who has turning up at the polling station and using someone absolutely no right to do so. It is clear—and it has been else’s details to get a ballot paper. We have already raised—that some people deliberately seek to get on to heard that the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden the electoral register when they have no right to do so, (Siobhain McDonagh) could appear as Elvis Presley. perhaps to improve their chances of obtaining credit. That scenario was entertainingly described by my hon. The fact is, however, that the door is open for them to Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson). do so, and we must slam it shut. The reality is that, however implausible that might be, it is highly possible if the name “Elvis Presley” is on the Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I sympathise with the hon. register. Gentleman’s argument. Does he recognise an experience that I had recently? I asked a female voter whether I I therefore ask the Minister to expand further on the could speak to the other two females in the house, only reasons for not requiring some form of voter identification to be told that they were aged six and four. at the polling station. Predictably, Opposition Members said the answer to the problem was to introduce their Nick de Bois: I have not had such an experience identity card scheme. As we know, that is not necessary, myself. I am shocked to hear of the hon. Gentleman’s as illustrated in Northern Ireland, where perfectly acceptable experience, but not surprised. I am grateful to him for methods of identification are available. drawing it to my attention. I was delighted that the chair of the Electoral Our system currently depends on trust, and Commission, Jenny Watson, who has been calling for unsurprisingly that trust can and will be broken. The voter identification at polling stations since 2010, has proposals for the use of national insurance numbers urged for such a change in the law to be considered, to and individual registration are therefore a massive step “help us all be sure our voting system is safe.” forward, and I hope that they will implemented as soon I am confused as to why the Government will not as possible. I shall deal shortly with the question of pursue this matter further. I understand that one objection timing, but I should like first to raise four points with might be that such a change is a step change too far, and the Minister. I would be grateful if he responded to may threaten voter turnout. However, within two years them, or at least considered them and then responded at of its being introduced in Northern Ireland, the turnout some future date. was up to 62.9%, which was slightly higher than the First, the co-ordinated online record of electors presents average for a UK general election. I ask the Minister to the possibility that people can move and remain on a share his thoughts with us. multitude of registers. As we have heard, the population Let me be clear, however, that I consider this Bill to is increasingly transient, so there will be ever more such be long overdue and extremely welcome. It has my full instances. I am not a great fan of the “database state”, support, but I will be very grateful if I am able to offer it but I would like to know how the Minister proposes do even greater support, with consideration being given to deal with this problem, because without a record, there some of these proposed changes, so we can have full will be no central mechanism. confidence in the register of voters. 1237 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1238 Administration Bill Administration Bill 6.29 pm efficient as the one I would adopt now that I am in my fourth decade. It is important not to put hurdles in the Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I am extremely way before we have seen the evidence on the effects; grateful for being given the opportunity to speak in this only then should we undergo the transition to a whole debate. On Second Reading, we have the opportunity to new process. debate the principle behind the Bill, and Opposition Front Benchers were right to point out that although we Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): can support the underlying principle, there are areas The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate speech, as that give cause for concern, and I am sure those will well as a self-congratulatory one. He is congratulatory determine how we divide the House this evening. about himself, but he is dismissive of the qualities of Some of the comments made today in discussing the our young people. One of the transitions that they have principle behind the Bill have concerned me. We have to make is from childhood to adulthood. Students in thrown around terms such as “the integrity of the this country are perfectly capable of recognising their register” as though that were a one-sided issue. The root duty and the requirements to register to vote. The of integrity is the absence of flaws. I completely support suggestion that they or people in ethnic minorities the efforts we made when in government to introduce somehow have a likelihood of being incapable of doing individual voter registration, and which we have continued that is one that I find offensive to them, and I ask him to to support under the current Administration. However, retract any such suggestion. my concern is that a register that excludes people who otherwise may wish to vote and who are perfectly Gavin Shuker: I think that the hon. Gentleman has entitled to do so, and that seeks to reduce the number of entirely misread my comments, and I wonder whether voters from certain key groups—those who are less he has chosen to do so. About one in four young people likely to be able to register in this way—is fundamentally under 24 vote, whereas about three quarters of people flawed. Many Opposition Members and, if we are being over 60 do so, and that should not be dismissed. honest, Members across the House, would identify those key groups as young people, people from ethnic minority Mrs Laing: We have debated this matter for the past and poorer backgrounds, and those who live in inner five hours, but does the hon. Gentleman not accept that cities. if a person cannot exercise the personal responsibility Two issues have come to light during the debate that of filling in a simple form online in order to register to will govern how we will debate the Bill as it proceeds vote, it is upon their own head that they lose their right through Parliament. The first is the number of anecdotal to vote? examples of alleged voter fraud, and of convictions for such fraud. I detected an underlying tone in many Gavin Shuker: The hon. Lady has moderated her Members’ contributions; it suggested that, even where language since she made her speech earlier, in which she convictions were not secured, the fact that questions clearly said that those people did not “deserve” to vote. were raised was evidence of a problem that must be She can look at Hansard to see that. I appreciate that solved. However, we should be better than that, especially she has moved her position, but her substantive point when the underlying assumption about the background remains that there are those people who deserve to vote of the people involved in such activity—it is an assumption and those who do not. I, for one, do not want to see a made by a number of Members during today’s debate— system where we start talking about the electorate in relates to their ethnicity, religion or faith. If we want to that way. make assertions based on anecdotal evidence, we should be extremely careful about the type of groups we Mr Stuart: They won’t be the electorate. characterise in that way. The onus of proof is clearly on us, as Members. Gavin Shuker: The hon. Gentleman rightly points out My second concern is the underlying assumption, that they will not be the electorate then, but in this place which we heard from Government Members, that if we should be better than that. people cannot complete a more complex and demanding When we consider foreign policy, for example, we process in order to register and are unable to return the often examine how we set a timetable. There are two form—the issue that is at the heart of the Bill—they ways of setting a timetable for change. The first is by should, quite rightly, lose their right to vote. No one way of a conditions-based response, where we say that should lose their right to vote. There are questions to be there are certain milestones to be hit—certain points at asked about what the most efficient process is to ensure which we consider that the integrity of the process has the integrity of the register. As I said at the start of my been governed and understood by all, and the progress speech, if we truly want a register with integrity, we that has been made has been secured. The other route is need to consider not just those who should not be on by way of a purely date-led timetable. In the Political the register, but those who are not on it. There is this Parties and Elections Act 2009, the previous Government idea that we have an undeserving group of people. The set out a position where two parallel processes would example was rightly given—perhaps in jest, but there is happen at the same time: the existing register would some truth in it—of younger voters, such as students. It continue in the way that it had, while we looked at and may surprise Members to hear that, not so long ago, I tried to understand how individual electoral registration was a student. Even though I am a disciplined, efficient affected the details of those people on the register. That and “together” Member of Parliament now— strikes me as a wholly appropriate approach, and many [Interruption.] Thank you. I think Hansard may record Government Members, as they are now, supported those that as “interruption”. However, there were perhaps moves. Why for the sake of a year’s change or difference times when a form or essay sat on my desk that I fully are we now going to cause ourselves trouble and store it intended to hand in, but my approach was not as up for the future? 1239 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1240 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Gavin Shuker] My hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield South East, for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and for We have heard a lot from the Minister about the Edinburgh East also stressed the importance of the data-matching trials, which are obviously important in pilots on data matching and the need to evaluate their order for us to see whether this shift has a measurable effectiveness before moving ahead to full individual and discernible effect on how the register is produced. registration. The provisions on individual registration He has placed details in the Library today, and I am concern us. As the Electoral Commission put it: looking forward to seeing them. However, he said that “It requires careful planning and implementation and needs to he anticipates that only two thirds of the people currently be done in a way that puts the voter first.” on the register will be moved across. That is crucial because voter registration is at the heart of our democracy. Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): At best. It is always worth reiterating that democracy is deeply embedded in our society and culture. It has developed Gavin Shuker: At best. The key issue is that we will slowly over the centuries and was, of course, a rallying not know, even from the pilots, whether that is an cry in the English civil war and in the ongoing struggle appropriate level until early 2013, by which point this waged by movements such as the Chartists, the Reform legislation will have gone from this place. We will not be League and the Suffragettes. Many died for the cause, able to pull back from the brink if demonstrably lower as was pointed out by my right hon. Friend the Member levels of data matching are shown. The Minister was for Holborn and St Pancras. We should therefore not clear about the onus put on those trials in the first place; take risks with our hard-earned rights and should do it was a key reason why this was an appropriate route to everything we can to strengthen our most precious go down. In answer to my intervention, he said that he asset, our democracy. An accurate and complete electoral hoped the number on the electoral register will not register is fundamental to achieving that, but we must decrease, and will instead increase, as a result of these be cautious and remember the words of the 18th century changes. What safeguards are in place if the data-matching poet, Alexander Pope, who said: trials come back not with a figure of 66% or 55%, which is the sort of figure others have spoken about, but a “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread”. significantly lower one? Answer comes there none. We clearly need to tread carefully, and that is why Labour, when we were in government, legislated for a Secondly, on the 2015 review of boundaries for the phased approach to the introduction of individual 2020 elections, to which this process is integral, we have registration. very little in the way of answers about how the register will change constituency boundaries, which have already Let us be clear that there is no backsliding from the been changed to a great extent. I draw the House’s Opposition on the overall principle. We are of the view attention to the quotes from the Electoral Reform Society, that we are one of the few countries in the world to which said: practise registration on a household basis and the system “A substantial fall off in registered voters, weighted towards has outlived its usefulness, but our legislation was based urban areas, would require the Boundary Commission to reduce on important safeguards that insisted that the new the number of inner city seats. This will create thousands of system should be phased in and that that should be “invisible” citizens who will not be accounted for or considered in combined with an annual monitoring of progress by the many key decisions that affect their lives”. Electoral Commission and a final assessment in 2014 by I believe that that is the situation we are in now, and it the commission of whether to move to a fully fledged might well extend further. That does a disservice to individual registration system at that point. The key many of the groups that I mentioned. question is why the coalition Government decided to accelerate the process and demote the role of the Finally, I want to draw attention to the issue of commission in assessing progress. When my hon. Friend young people. Students who are registered in their halls the Member for Edinburgh East asked that question, of residence are empowered to vote at a time of significant the Minister replied from a sedentary position that it change and transition in their lives. I hope that they will was because it was too slow. not be disfranchised, because their voices must be heard if we are to maintain the credibility of the process and Whatever the reasons are, the Opposition are saddened draw in new voters, too. and mystified by how the Deputy Prime Minister and the coalition Government have approached the issue. First, the White Paper set out measures which, if they 6.40 pm had been retained, would have seriously threatened Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): registration levels. We saw in the White Paper the proposed We have enjoyed an excellent debate, with contributions opt-out from the process, and there was a proposal that from my hon. Friends the Members for Luton South there should be no civil penalty for failing or refusing to (Gavin Shuker), for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), register, alongside a proposal that there should be no for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), for Vale of Clwyd annual canvass in 2014. That these ideas have all been (Chris Ruane), for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain abandoned, thanks to sustained and rigorous campaigning McDonagh) and for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) by Labour MPs and democrats everywhere, is at least a and my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and signal that the party which brought in the Reform Act St Pancras (Frank Dobson). My right hon. and hon. 1867 has not entirely lost its democratic roots. Friends all drew attention to the risks of disfranchisement However, the Bill is still far from perfect and it is clear carried in the Bill and talked in detail about the risks to that the Government are not listening to the legitimate those parts of the population that are perhaps more concerns of democrats everywhere. Specifically, although transient. the Government have conceded the use of carry-over 1241 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1242 Administration Bill Administration Bill data for the register for the general election in 2015, this and damaged the radical legacy of our political forefathers will not be allowed for the boundary review due to start for the sake of a mean political advantage in the 2015 in December that year. This leads to the possibility of a boundary review. The choice is his: he can either walk boundary change taking place in the context of wide-scale with the giants or adopt the stance of a democratic disfranchisement, particularly in intensely urban areas pygmy. We on the Opposition Benches have made our with higher levels of voter turbulence. The Government choice and will vote against Second Reading. must listen to the concerns expressed about this by the Electoral Reform Society and by academics such as 6.50 pm Dr Stuart Wilks-Heeg. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Secondly, the role of the Electoral Commission in the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): Oh deary, assessing progress in implementation of the new system deary me! It is a rare privilege for the Minister responsible should be restored. It is critical to the independence of for political and constitutional reform and me to present our democratic process that this should be so. Moreover, a Bill that seems to have the wholehearted support of all we believe that both the secondary legislation and the colleagues on the Government Benches, and I want to implementation plan should be published before the put that on the record. I think that is because the reform House considers the detail of the Bill, so that we have is based on the important principle that the electoral the most rigorous debate possible on how individual register should include all those who are eligible to vote registration should move forward. and none of those who are ineligible to vote. We need to see, too, a proper commitment to ring-fencing It is clear that there are risks inherent in our current the funding set aside by Government for the implementation system. Over the years I have often taken part in of the legislation. At a time of swingeing cuts to local international electoral monitoring missions, both in government funding, we need safeguards to ensure properly eastern Europe and in central Asia, and occasionally I resourced approaches to electoral registration, as was have led such missions. It always seemed an embarrassment pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh that I could not defend the integrity of our electoral East. Alongside this we need to see the Government system in the way I would demand of the systems in row back from their intention not to carry forward to other countries. I must say, in passing, to my hon. the 2015 general election the postal and proxy votes Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), held by many currently on the register who fail to who said that presiding officers should have more powers, register individually in time for that election. The comments that in at least one polling station I visited the presiding made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland officer had an AK47 on the desk in front of him, but I Central about the importance of making it easier, not think that is something we would draw back from. harder, for people to cast their votes were relevant in this context. Furthermore, we need the Government to I had thought that across the House we shared the agree to drop the power to cancel annual canvasses. principle that individual voter registration was necessary These will remain a critical tool in the constant drive and desirable. I know that there are some refuseniks. I that is necessary to maximize registration of the eligible know that the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden voting population. (Siobhain McDonagh), for example, will never believe that individual voter registration is the right course. These concerns are not just Labour concerns. They Incidentally, I can give her at least one bit of reassurance. have been raised by a wide range of organisations, She asked if she could be on the Committee. It will be a including the Electoral Reform Society, and by the Committee of the whole House, so I think she may Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, to whose sneak in. The right hon. Member for Holborn and work I pay tribute. It is in sadness more than in anger St Pancras (Frank Dobson) does not want to see any that the Opposition feel it necessary to vote against change at all, and he has colleagues who share that view. Second Reading, because we remain unconvinced that the coalition Government’s unpicking of the Labour Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Will my legislation is anything other than a partisan attempt to hon. Friend remind the House that the Bill is the subject manipulate the concept of individual voter registration of a pilot whereby Members can table explanatory on what one can only assume are political grounds. But statements for any amendments or new clauses that we will work at representing our demands in Committee they wish to bring forward? and on Report, and hope that the Government will see sense and modify the Bill accordingly, thereby re-establishing Mr Heath: Indeed I will, as the Parliamentary Secretary the consensual approach to this topic, which we believe did when he moved the motion earlier. I think that is an is important if our electoral system is to retain its important innovation. credibility and its integrity. Many colleagues on the Government Benches stressed The great electoral reforms of the past were steered the dangers of electoral fraud, which are clearly there. through Parliament by names that stand tall in the We heard reminders of that from the hon. Members for annals of our democratic history: Lord Grey, Benjamin Peterborough, for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), for Disraeli, William Gladstone and Lloyd George. We Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell), remember, too, Stanley Baldwin, Clem Attlee and Harold for Witham (Priti Patel) and for Enfield North (Nick de Wilson, who all in their own way strengthened the Bois) and, by intervention, from my colleague, my hon. franchise and its integrity, and in so doing strengthened Friend the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). I our democracy. simply cannot understand the point made by the shadow I put it to the House that the Deputy Prime Minister, Deputy Leader of the House, the hon. Member for even at this late stage, should consider whether he wants Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), who suggested to be remembered as the politician who upheld the that there was some defect in the process of bringing principles of our democracy or the one who disowned forward the Bill, because I cannot remember a single 1243 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1244 Administration Bill Administration Bill [Mr Heath] publishing the secondary legislation during the progress of the Bill, and I reassure him again that we will do Bill that has gone through so many processes of pre- so—unlike our predecessors, who did not do so with legislative scrutiny. It is actually held up as an exemplar previous Bills. The hon. Member for Witham asked for of good process, so I am sad that she does not recognise an assurance, which I can give her. The Government that. will not use this Bill to amend prisoner voting rights, I do not have time to go through all the details of the whatever may be said in the courts. contributions from hon. Members, but I will refer to a The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr few. I thought that the hon. Member for Sheffield South (Jonathan Edwards) was for the principle of the Bill East (Mr Betts) made a reasoned and well-argued case. and asked how it will affect European parliamentary He does know a little about this because he has supported election preparations. The simple answer is that it will the principle for many years, as he said. He read out the improve the accuracy of the register by moving the report from eight years ago. canvass date, and I think that that will be helpful. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport Mr Betts: In raising that issue, I asked what the (Oliver Colvile) mentioned the service personnel issue, Government would do if the Bill, when an Act, leads to which is a very important principle, and we need to a substantial fall in registration. consider a mechanism to facilitate registration and registration updates as part of the arrivals process for personnel at new postings. Mr Heath: We are confident that it will not do so—[Interruption.] But let me say that I can point to I will not be able to answer all the points that have the fact that we had a substantial fall in registration been made, but I felt that the contribution of the hon. during the period of the previous Government, so I ask Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) was very sad indeed myself, “What did that Government do about the disgrace because he was desperately casting about for a reason to of 3 million people falling off the register?” The answer oppose a Bill that he supports in principle, and for some is nothing. We are putting forward concrete measures to reason to say that, despite the Government having ensure that we not only have a register with integrity, made concessions in a range of areas where we have but recruit as many additional people as possible to it, listened to what people have said, it was still not enough. and online registration, for example, will be a major He was desperate to find good reasons to vote against boost to young people’s registration, because it will the Bill, but he did not persuade me, I doubt if he has make the process easier for them. persuaded the House, and I commend this Bill to the House. As I have said, I will have to rush through my response to several contributions. I have to disappoint Question put, That the amendment be made. the hon. Member for Pendle in one respect, because we The House divided: Ayes 223, Noes 283. do not intend to remove what he described as postal Division No. 11] [6.59 pm votes on demand. A great many people benefit from postal votes, and we need to maintain that. AYES My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall Abbott, Ms Diane Burden, Richard (Dan Rogerson) talked about second home owners and Abrahams, Debbie Burnham, rh Andy will know the distinction between someone who owns a Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Byrne, rh Mr Liam second home and someone who is resident in more than Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, Mr Alan one home. His local councils have been taking action on Alexander, Heidi Campbell, Mr Ronnie that, and, as I know he will be glad to hear, we are still Ali, Rushanara Caton, Martin considering the matter of the edited register. Allen, Mr Graham Chapman, Mrs Jenny Anderson, Mr David Clark, Katy The hon. Member for Epping Forest raised the question Ashworth, Jonathan Clarke, rh Mr Tom of queuing, but I think that the Parliamentary Secretary Austin, Ian Clwyd, rh Ann has already answered that point, when he mentioned Bailey, Mr Adrian Coffey, Ann the changes in administration locally which ought to Bain, Mr William Cooper, Rosie cure that problem. Balls, rh Ed Corbyn, Jeremy I was very taken by the speech from the hon. Member Banks, Gordon Crausby, Mr David for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott). She made a number Barron, rh Mr Kevin Creagh, Mary of very important points about how the system will Bayley, Hugh Creasy, Stella work, and we will carefully consider them, but may I Beckett, rh Margaret Cruddas, Jon give her one piece of reassurance? She mentioned the Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Alex electoral arrangements in her own city of Sunderland, Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Mr Jim which are very good, and one reason why is Mr Dave Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Tony Smith, the city council’s chief executive, who is on the Betts, Mr Clive Curran, Margaret programme board, so we will benefit directly from his Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dakin, Nic advice. Blenkinsop, Tom Danczuk, Simon Blomfield, Paul Darling, rh Mr Alistair My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion Blunkett, rh Mr David David, Mr Wayne (Mr Williams) welcomed these changes, and may I Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Davies, Geraint reassure him again on the important point about the Brennan, Kevin De Piero, Gloria carry-over of postal votes? If people’s details do not Brown, Lyn Denham, rh Mr John change, the carry-over will happen automatically and Brown, Mr Russell Dobbin, Jim we will not lose them from the register. The hon. Member Bryant, Chris Dobson, rh Frank for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) asked again about Buck, Ms Karen Docherty, Thomas 1245 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1246 Administration Bill Administration Bill Doran, Mr Frank McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Stephen Winnick, Mr David Dowd, Jim McClymont, Gregg Umunna, Mr Chuka Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Doyle, Gemma McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, rh Keith Wishart, Pete Durkan, Mark McDonnell, John Vaz, Valerie Wood, Mike Eagle, Ms Angela McFadden, rh Mr Pat Walley, Joan Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Alison Watson, Mr Tom Wright, David Efford, Clive McKechin, Ann Watts, Mr Dave Wright, Mr Iain Elliott, Julie McKenzie, Mr Iain Weir, Mr Mike Ellman, Mrs Louise McKinnell, Catherine Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Tellers for the Ayes: Engel, Natascha Meacher, rh Mr Michael Whitehead, Dr Alan Phil Wilson and Evans, Chris Meale, Sir Alan Williams, Hywel Yvonne Fovargue Farrelly, Paul Mearns, Ian Field, rh Mr Frank Michael, rh Alun NOES Fitzpatrick, Jim Miliband, rh David Flello, Robert Miliband, rh Edward Adams, Nigel Davis, rh Mr David Flynn, Paul Miller, Andrew Afriyie, Adam de Bois, Nick Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin Aldous, Peter Dinenage, Caroline Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Alexander, rh Danny Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Amess, Mr David Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Andrew, Stuart Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dorries, Nadine Godsiff, Mr Roger (Easington) Bacon, Mr Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Goodman, Helen Mudie, Mr George Baker, Norman Drax, Richard Green, Kate Munn, Meg Baker, Steve Duddridge, James Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Baldry, Tony Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Dunne, Mr Philip Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Barclay, Stephen Ellis, Michael Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Barker, Gregory Ellison, Jane Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Harman, rh Ms Harriet Osborne, Sandra Benyon, Richard Evans, Jonathan Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, Mr David Healey, rh John Pearce, Teresa Berry, Jake Fabricant, Michael Hendrick, Mark Perkins, Toby Bingham, Andrew Fallon, Michael Hepburn, Mr Stephen Phillipson, Bridget Birtwistle, Gordon Foster, rh Mr Don Heyes, David Pound, Stephen Blackman, Bob Francois, rh Mr Mark Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blunt, Mr Crispin Freeman, George Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie Boles, Nick Freer, Mike Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Rachel Bone, Mr Peter Fullbrook, Lorraine Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Emma Bradley, Karen Gale, Sir Roger Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Jonathan Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mr Edward Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Bray, Angie Garnier, Mark Hosie, Stewart Robertson, John Bridgen, Andrew Gauke, Mr David Hunt, Tristram Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brine, Steve George, Andrew Jackson, Glenda Rotheram, Steve Brokenshire, James Gibb, Mr Nick Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank Browne, Mr Jeremy Gilbert, Stephen Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay Bruce, Fiona Glen, John Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Burley, Mr Aidan Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Burns, Conor Gove, rh Michael Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard Jones, Mr Kevan Shannon, Jim Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Burstow, Paul Gray, Mr James Jowell, rh Tessa Sheerman, Mr Barry Burt, Lorely Grayling, rh Chris Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Byles, Dan Green, Damian Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Cable, rh Vince Greening, rh Justine Kendall, Liz Skinner, Mr Dennis Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Khan, rh Sadiq Slaughter, Mr Andy Carswell, Mr Douglas Griffiths, Andrew Lavery, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Cash, Mr William Gummer, Ben Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Angela Chope, Mr Christopher Gyimah, Mr Sam Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Clappison, Mr James Halfon, Robert Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Owen Clark, rh Greg Hames, Duncan Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Spellar, rh Mr John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hammond, rh Mr Philip Love, Mr Andrew Straw, rh Mr Jack Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hancock, Matthew MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stuart, Ms Gisela Collins, Damian Hands, Greg MacShane, rh Mr Denis Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Colvile, Oliver Harper, Mr Mark Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harrington, Richard Mahmood, Shabana Thomas, Mr Gareth Crabb, Stephen Harris, Rebecca Malhotra, Seema Timms, rh Stephen Crouch, Tracey Hart, Simon Mann, John Trickett, Jon Davey, rh Mr Edward Harvey, Nick Marsden, Mr Gordon Turner, Karl Davies, Glyn Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Davies, Philip Heald, Oliver 1247 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1248 Administration Bill Administration Bill Heath, Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin White, Chris Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Turner, Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Tyrie, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Williams, Mr Mark Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Vaizey, Mr Edward Williams, Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh Williamson, Gavin Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Vickers, Martin Willott, Jenny Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wilson, Mr Rob Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Charles Wollaston, Dr Sarah Howarth, Mr Gerald Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Young, rh Sir George Howell, John Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Tellers for the Noes: Hughes, rh Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Webb, Steve Jeremy Wright and Huhne, rh Chris Pawsey, Mark Wharton, James Mark Hunter Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penning, Mike Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew Jackson, Mr Stewart Perry, Claire Question accordingly negatived. Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 62(2)), Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric That the Bill be now read a Second time. Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Jones, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel The House divided: Ayes 283, Noes 219. Jones, Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Division No. 12] [7.13 pm Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John AYES Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Randall, rh Mr John Adams, Nigel Coffey, Dr Thérèse Kirby, Simon Reckless, Mark Afriyie, Adam Collins, Damian Knight, rh Mr Greg Redwood, rh Mr John Aldous, Peter Colvile, Oliver Kwarteng, Kwasi Rees-Mogg, Jacob Alexander, rh Danny Cox, Mr Geoffrey Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reevell, Simon Amess, Mr David Crabb, Stephen Lancaster, Mark Reid, Mr Alan Andrew, Stuart Crouch, Tracey Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davey, rh Mr Edward Latham, Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, Glyn Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Baker, Norman Davies, Philip Leadsom, Andrea Rudd, Amber Baker, Steve Davis, rh Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Baldwin, Harriett de Bois, Nick Lefroy, Jeremy Russell, Sir Bob Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Leigh, Mr Edward Rutley, David Barker, Gregory Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Leslie, Charlotte Sanders, Mr Adrian Bebb, Guto Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sandys, Laura Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee Benyon, Richard Dorries, Nadine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Lidington, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Berry, Jake Drax, Richard Long, Naomi Sharma, Alok Bingham, Andrew Duddridge, James Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Birtwistle, Gordon Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Loughton, Tim Simmonds, Mark Blackman, Bob Dunne, Mr Philip Luff, Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellis, Michael Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris Boles, Nick Ellison, Jane Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Henry Bone, Mr Peter Elphicke, Charlie Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Julian Bottomley, Sir Peter Evans, Graham May, rh Mrs Theresa Soames, rh Nicholas Bradley, Karen Evans, Jonathan Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna Brady, Mr Graham Evennett, Mr David McCartney, Jason Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bray, Angie Fabricant, Michael McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark Bridgen, Andrew Fallon, Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Brine, Steve Featherstone, Lynne McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Brokenshire, James Foster, rh Mr Don McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Browne, Mr Jeremy Francois, rh Mr Mark McVey, Esther Stewart, Bob Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Mensch, Louise Stewart, Iain Burley, Mr Aidan Freer, Mike Menzies, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Burns, Conor Fullbrook, Lorraine Mercer, Patrick Stride, Mel Burns, rh Mr Simon Gale, Sir Roger Metcalfe, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Mr Edward Mills, Nigel Stunell, Andrew Burstow, Paul Garnier, Mark Milton, Anne Sturdy, Julian Burt, Lorely Gauke, Mr David Mordaunt, Penny Swales, Ian Byles, Dan George, Andrew Morgan, Nicky Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Cable, rh Vince Gibb, Mr Nick Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gilbert, Stephen Morris, David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Carswell, Mr Douglas Glen, John Morris, James Syms, Mr Robert Chope, Mr Christopher Goldsmith, Zac Mosley, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Clappison, Mr James Gove, rh Michael Mowat, David Teather, Sarah Clark, rh Greg Graham, Richard Munt, Tessa Thurso, John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Grant, Mrs Helen Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gray, Mr James 1249 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1250 Administration Bill Administration Bill Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Soubry, Anna Tyrie, Mr Andrew Green, Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Uppal, Paul Greening, rh Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark Vaizey, Mr Edward Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McPartland, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Vickers, Martin Griffiths, Andrew McVey, Esther Stephenson, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Gummer, Ben Mensch, Louise Stevenson, John Walker, Mr Charles Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Stewart, Bob Walker, Mr Robin Halfon, Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Wallace, Mr Ben Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Webb, Steve Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Wharton, James Hammond, Stephen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris Hancock, Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Willetts, rh Mr David Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian Williams, Mr Mark Harrington, Richard Morris, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williams, Stephen Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Swinson, Jo Williamson, Gavin Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Willott, Jenny Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wollaston, Dr Sarah Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Teather, Sarah Wright, Jeremy Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Thurso, John Young, rh Sir George Hemming, John Neill, Robert Timpson, Mr Edward Tellers for the Ayes: Henderson, Gordon Newmark, Mr Brooks Tomlinson, Justin Mr Shailesh Vara and Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Turner, Mr Andrew Mark Hunter Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Hollobone, Mr Philip O’Brien, Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew NOES Howarth, Mr Gerald Ollerenshaw, Eric Abbott, Ms Diane Creagh, Mary Howell, John Ottaway, Richard Abrahams, Debbie Creasy, Stella Hughes, rh Simon Parish, Neil Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cruddas, Jon Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Alex Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Mr Jim Huppert, Dr Julian Owen Ali, Rushanara Cunningham, Tony Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Allen, Mr Graham Curran, Margaret Javid, Sajid Penning, Mike Anderson, Mr David Dakin, Nic Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Ashworth, Jonathan Danczuk, Simon Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Austin, Ian David, Mr Wayne Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Bailey, Mr Adrian Davies, Geraint Jones, Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr John Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Banks, Gordon Dobbin, Jim Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobson, rh Frank Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pritchard, Mark Bayley, Hugh Docherty, Thomas Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Beckett, rh Margaret Doran, Mr Frank Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Jim Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Mr John Benton, Mr Joe Doyle, Gemma Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Berger, Luciana Durkan, Mark Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Betts, Mr Clive Eagle, Ms Angela Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blackman-Woods, Roberta Edwards, Jonathan Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Blenkinsop, Tom Efford, Clive Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Blomfield, Paul Elliott, Julie Leadsom, Andrea Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Blunkett, rh Mr David Ellman, Mrs Louise Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Engel, Natascha Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Brennan, Kevin Evans, Chris Leigh, Mr Edward Rudd, Amber Brown, Lyn Farrelly, Paul Leslie, Charlotte Ruffley, Mr David Brown, Mr Russell Field, rh Mr Frank Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Sir Bob Bryant, Chris Fitzpatrick, Jim Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Buck, Ms Karen Flello, Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Sanders, Mr Adrian Burden, Richard Flynn, Paul Ian Sandys, Laura Burnham, rh Andy Francis, Dr Hywel Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Byrne, rh Mr Liam Gardiner, Barry Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Campbell, Mr Alan Gilmore, Sheila Long, Naomi Shannon, Jim Campbell, Mr Ronnie Glass, Pat Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Caton, Martin Glindon, Mrs Mary Loughton, Tim Sharma, Alok Chapman, Mrs Jenny Godsiff, Mr Roger Luff, Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Clark, Katy Goodman, Helen Lumley, Karen Simmonds, Mark Clarke, rh Mr Tom Green, Kate Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Clwyd, rh Ann Griffith, Nia Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Coffey, Ann Gwynne, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Cooper, Rosie Hain, rh Mr Peter Maynard, Paul Smith, Julian Corbyn, Jeremy Hamilton, Mr David McCartney, Jason Soames, rh Nicholas Crausby, Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David 1251 Electoral Registration and 23 MAY 2012 Electoral Registration and 1252 Administration Bill Administration Bill Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa ELECTORAL REGISTRATION AND Harris, Mr Tom Nash, Pamela ADMINISTRATION BILL (PROGRAMME) Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Order No. 83A(7)), Heyes, David Owen, Albert That the following provisions shall apply to the Electoral Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Registration and Administration Bill: Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Committal Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen House. Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Proceedings in Committee, on consideration and Third Reading Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie 2. Proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on consideration Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel and proceedings on Third Reading shall be completed in three Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma days. Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan 3. The proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the first Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda column of the following Table and in the order so shown. Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John 4. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second Johnson, Diana Rotheram, Steve column of the Table. Jones, Graham Roy, Mr Frank Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay TABLE Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Time for conclusion of Proceedings proceedings Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sarwar, Anas Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra First and second days Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clause 2, The moment of Schedule 2, Clauses 3 and 4, interruption on the Lavery, Ian Shuker, Gavin Clauses 6 to 9, Clause 5, Schedules 3 second day. Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis and 5. Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Third day Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Angela Clauses 10 to 12, Schedule 4, new Two hours before the Lucas, Ian Smith, Nick Clauses relating to Part 1, new moment of interruption MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Owen Schedules relating to Part 1, on the third day. MacShane, rh Mr Denis Spellar, rh Mr John Clauses 13 to 21, remaining new Mactaggart, Fiona Straw, rh Mr Jack Clauses, remaining new Schedules, Mahmood, Shabana Stringer, Graham Clauses 22 to 26, remaining Malhotra, Seema Stuart, Ms Gisela proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on consideration. Mann, John Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Marsden, Mr Gordon Tami, Mark Proceedings on Third Reading. The moment of McCann, Mr Michael Thomas, Mr Gareth interruption on the McCarthy, Kerry Timms, rh Stephen third day. McClymont, Gregg Trickett, Jon 5. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall McDonagh, Siobhain Turner, Karl not apply to proceedings in Committee, to any proceedings on McDonnell, John Twigg, Derek consideration or to proceedings on Third Reading. McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twigg, Stephen Other proceedings McGovern, Alison Umunna, Mr Chuka 6. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings McKechin, Ann Vaz, rh Keith on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages McKenzie, Mr Iain Vaz, Valerie from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mr Heath.) McKinnell, Catherine Walley, Joan Meacher, rh Mr Michael Watson, Mr Tom Question agreed to. Meale, Sir Alan Watts, Mr Dave Mearns, Ian Weir, Mr Mike Michael, rh Alun Whiteford, Dr Eilidh ELECTORAL REGISTRATION AND Miliband, rh David Whitehead, Dr Alan ADMINISTRATION BILL (MONEY) Miliband, rh Edward Williams, Hywel Queen’s recommendation signified. Miller, Andrew Winnick, Mr David Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Mitchell, Austin Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Order No. 52(1)(a)), Moon, Mrs Madeleine Wishart, Pete Morden, Jessica That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Electoral Wood, Mike Registration and Administration Bill, it is expedient to authorise— Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Morris, Grahame M. (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of— Wright, David (Easington) (a) any expenditure incurred by a Minister of the Crown in Wright, Mr Iain Mudie, Mr George consequence of the Act, and Munn, Meg Tellers for the Noes: (b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable Murphy, rh Paul Yvonne Fovargue and under any other Act out of money so provided, Murray, Ian Phil Wilson (2) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act Question accordingly agreed to. out of that Fund, and (3) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.— Bill read a Second time. (Mr Heath.) Question agreed to. 1253 23 MAY 2012 Business without Debate 1254

Business without Debate PEITTIONS VAT on Static Caravans

DELEGATED LEGISLATION 7.27 pm Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I present a petition on behalf of Suffolk Coastal residents. People have also sent me letters on this matter. CRIMINAL LAW The petition states that That the draft Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (Amendment) levying VAT on static holiday caravans would cost thousands of Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 27 March, in the jobs previous Session of Parliament, be approved.—(Mr Heath.) Question agreed to. in the UK holiday industry, including on caravan parks, and for caravan manufacturing and its suppliers, and notes that the Petitioners believe that such a levy will EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS reduce investment in these businesses and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing lose revenue for the Government. Order No. 119(11)), The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to reverse its decision to levy VAT on static caravans. EU CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND DETENTION Following is the full text of the petition: That this House takes note of European Union Document [The Petition of Residents of Suffolk Coastal, No. 11658/11, relating to the European Commission’s Green Paper on the application of EU criminal justice legislation in the Declares that the Petitioners believe that levying VAT field of detention; and supports the conclusions of the Government’s on static holiday caravans would cost thousands of jobs in response to the Green Paper, including the recommendation that caravan manufacturing, from their suppliers, and in the the European Commission should focus on the development and wider UK holiday industry; and notes that the Petitioners extension of best practice amongst Member States before making believe that such a levy would lose revenue for the Government. any new legislative proposals in this area.—(Mr McLoughlin.) The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Question agreed to. Commons urges the Government to reverse its decision to levy VAT on static caravans. And the Petitioners remain, etc.] WELSH GRAND COMMITTEE [P001059] Ordered, That— Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I, (1) the matter of the Government’s Legislative programme as too, wish to present a petition on behalf of residents in outlined in the Queen’s Speech and the Budget Statement as they relate to Wales be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for its Thirsk and Malton in similar terms to the aforementioned consideration; petition. In addition to the petition, I have received a (2) the Committee shall meet at Westminster on Wednesday vast number of letters. Normally, when such a radical 20 June at 9.30 am and 2.00 pm to consider– tax change is proposed, one year is allowed from the date of its proposed introduction before its coming into (a) questions tabled in accordance with Standing Order No. 103 (Welsh Grand Committee (questions for oral answer)), except force, if at all. that questions shall be addressed to, and answered by, Ministers The petition states: in Her Majesty’s Treasury, until 9.45 am; The Petition of residents of Thirsk and Malton, (b) questions tabled in accordance with Standing Order No. 103 Declares that the Petitioners believe that levying VAT on static (Welsh Grand Committee (questions for oral answer)), until holiday caravans would cost thousands of jobs in caravan 10.00 am; manufacturing, from their suppliers, and in the wider UK holiday (c) a Ministerial statement by the Secretary of State for Wales, industry; and notes that the Petitioners believe that such a levy proceeded with under Standing Order No. 105 (Welsh Grand would lose revenue for the Government. Committee (ministerial statements)); The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons (d) the matter referred to it under paragraph (1) above; and urges the Government to reverse its decision to levy VAT on static (3) the Chair shall interrupt proceedings at the afternoon caravans. sitting not later than two hours after their commencement at that And the Petitioners remain, etc. sitting.—(Bill Wiggin.) [P001094] 1255 23 MAY 2012 Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies 1256 (Safety Regulations) Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies Irving, that is and should be under scrutiny by my hon. (Safety Regulations) Friend the Minister, as well as the important questions of public policy that this case raises. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House The United States coastguard conducted an inquiry, do now adjourn.—(Bill Wiggin.) which concluded that “the master felt pressure from his employers to deliver the yacht 7.29 pm against safety standards (no survival suits, radar, heating, proper Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): communications gear, proper life boat for ocean travel)...the The reason for my seeking to secure this Adjournment master requested to travel a different route via Hawaii because he felt it would be safer and quicker and was denied permission by debate is the death of five men in circumstances that his employer who stated the owners would not allow it.” will, I hope, attract the indignation of every right-thinking man and woman listening to my narrative. The judge in the Admiralty Court concluded: “The question is whether it was proper to navigate a vessel with The sea conditions in the north-west Pacific in the the characteristics of this catamaran into a part of the world months of November and December are notoriously where she could or was likely to meet such bad weather conditions…In dangerous. The navigational directions of the Admiralty my judgment it could generally be regarded as intrinsically unsafe speak of frequent gales, huge seas and swells rising to and therefore foolhardy to take a 40 foot…multi hull vessel across over 4 metres. These mountainous and confused seas any piece of water when it was expected to meet hurricane or are raised by violent winds and driven by tropical typhoon conditions…this is particularly true if it was possible to storms and hurricanes. Into the teeth of those conditions avoid such conditions”. sailed the fragile, 40-feet catamaran, the Cat Shot. She The judge concluded in the High Court that Reliance was skippered by a constituent of mine, John Anstess, a should have taken steps to inquire what conditions man born in Plymouth, in the constituency of my hon. would face the vessel. If not, it would have had no way Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport of knowing whether it was sensible to commit the (Oliver Colvile), whose family reside in the village of skipper and the crew to the delivery of a boat within Beer Alston in west Devon. He was an experienced that time scale. skipper and a decent family man. He had set sail in The judge concluded that Irving had done nothing to August 2006, en route to Seattle on the north-west coast check the weather to be expected in the north Pacific at of the United States of America. that time of year or to carry out elementary route The Cat Shot had crossed the south Atlantic and, planning, which is a prerequisite of the responsible after making several stops and negotiating the Panama operation of sailing vessels. Had he done so, he would canal, put in to Puerto Vallarta in Mexico to shelter have been bound to conclude that the voyage was from Hurricane Sergio. Hurricane Sergio weakened and unsafe. This was the view of the crew who left the boat died off on 18 November and, on 24 November, the Cat at San Diego. It was the view of the local skippers. This Shot arrived at San Diego. There, the crew refused to view was conveyed to Reliance, but it was ignored. The continue because they thought that it would be unsafe only inference—I repeat, the only inference—is that to do so at that time of year in that vessel. On 30 November, Mr Irving and his company were more interested in the Cat Shot arrived in Los Angeles, where she took on their reputation for delivering boats on time than with a replacement crew member, Richard Beckman. On 7 the lives of their skippers and crew. December, she made San Francisco, where she took on When Mr Anstess urgently and repeatedly raised the another crew member, Dave Rodman. On 8 December, sensible suggestion that he should take the Hawaii route she departed from San Francisco for the final run to because it would have avoided the area of bad weather Seattle. She was skippered, as I have said, by John and was a route that was more off wind than the coastal Anstess. route and therefore much more appropriate for a catamaran, That was the last time those three men were seen it was rejected by Irving with the words that the “client alive. When the catamaran was recovered, the hull door will go ballistic”. John Anstess had also e-mailed his was found open and a line was attached to the propeller sister on 25 November to say that he was getting no bracket. She had capsized. The crew had clearly left the help from Reliance and had requested a change of vessel after that happened. The log was recovered. The route, but that Nick had laughed at him. Nick did not final entry had been made at 03:00 hours on 11 December say, as a responsible operator would have, “Well, John, 2006—it had been the skipper’s practice to make entries it is a matter for you; do what you think is best—you’re roughly every three hours—from which the US coastguard the captain on the spot.” He directed John Anstess to concluded that the vessel had foundered off the coast of sea; he directed him to his death. Oregon between 03:00 and 06:00 hours on that day. The When John Anstess suggested wintering in San log recorded very heavy weather conditions and confused Diego—of all the options, the most sensible—he was seas. The vessel run before the wind, bare poled, with no told: “John, you have definitely got a tired attitude. I sails and with sea anchors deployed. A storm had still like you, John, but this trip you have definitely developed in the area at the time, and the Admiralty showed a different side to you.” The judge rightly court judge who inquired into the matter stated that it concluded that this was a rejection. He found that there was was no competent managerial system in place at Reliance “most probable that size and steepness of a combination of waves that could evaluate the relevant dangers and make and swell was sufficient to overturn her.” proper decisions. He agreed with the United States How had the vessel come to be in that place at that coastguard that John Anstess had been put under pressure time? John Anstess had been engaged by a company to complete the voyage. He found Reliance negligent called Reliance Yacht Management, or Reliance Yacht and the loss of the crew directly attributable to its Deliveries Ltd, as a delivery skipper. It is the conduct of conduct. He also found that when John Anstess had that company and its principal director, Mr Nicholas sent a message stating that the weather was not looking 1257 Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies 23 MAY 2012 Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies 1258 (Safety Regulations) (Safety Regulations) good—that there were strong south-easterlies gusting even though it was being taken by employed crew—many 30 to 40 knots for the next three or four days and a of them British citizens—from this country to the port massive low system out over the Pacific—he was told by of destination, for pay. the company that its forecast shows “light winds” out And what of John Anstess? His Cat Shot was foreign- to the south-west and south-east, and either way not registered, and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency from the north. says that it is unable to act for that reason. My office has Let us pause a moment, Madam Deputy Speaker, been in touch with the agency today, and it continues to and reflect upon the wickedness of such an act. The adopt that stance. This is an outrage. Something must judge concluded there had been no such weather forecast, be done to bring the company to account. I must tell my and that it had been part of Reliance’s approach to put hon. Friend the Minister that I do not believe that pressure on John Anstess to complete the delivery. He enough consideration has been given to whether action had gone ahead only against his own best judgment, can be taken. I do not accept that this matter is beyond after the company had ignored and overridden his the criminal jurisdiction of the courts of this country warning and advice. The judge found that John Anstess merely because the vessel flew a foreign flag. The instructions had probably survived the capsize and had rigged the to go to sea that the judge found were negligent, the lies line around the propeller, no doubt in an attempt to about the weather conditions, and the pressure put on remain attached to the capsized vessel in the swelling the captain and the masters by Irving of Reliance were seas. So he ordered that Mr Irving and his company all carried out in this country. If they amount to a should pay £3,000 to his relatives and estate, and should criminal wrong, there can be indictments in this country, pay the remainder of the $7,500 fee for which John had even though the impact may have been felt 6,000 miles contracted to supply the boat. A note of a phone call across the seas. from John Anstess was found at Reliance, saying that he The Maritime and Coastguard Agency must be asked was to look at this issue again. It has signed a memorandum “on a boat already suffering stress damages. I am being pushed of understanding with other prosecution agencies—the into taking the boat into even more extreme weather than I have Health and Safety Executive, the Crown Prosecution encountered so far and nobody seems to care.” Service. My hon. Friend the Minister must prompt those agencies to look again at this matter. The Health What has been the reaction of Mr Irving? Has he and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 puts duties on paid the paltry sum that Reliance was ordered to pay by employers—which is what the judge in the High Court the High Court? He has not. He has applied to dissolve found Reliance and Irving were—to ensure the safety of his company, and with that dissolution to escape the their employees. The instructions, the equipping of the judgment debt. He is in the habit of dissolving companies: vessel, the lack of navigational planning were all carried he has dissolved no fewer than four so far. out in England, and, I submit, are therefore subject to John Anstess is not the only skipper who has been the jurisdiction of our courts. lost at sea while delivering yachts for Reliance, and for However, even if I am wrong about that—even if all Mr Irving. Although it beggars belief, just two months these agencies, through all their concerted efforts, cannot later Steve Hobley, another Devon man—from Newton find a way of affording justice to the families of these Abbot—was sailing on the right, safe and prudent route five men who have died—there is still an important from England to Miami when he was ordered to deviate public policy question. How can we allow companies and sail north of Bermuda to take a 38-feet catamaran that hold in their hands the lives of hundreds of men to Annapolis in Maryland. He was told by Irving that if every year—sending them to sea in fragile pleasure he failed to make the diversion, he would never work for craft, apparently unregulated by any authority—to continue the company again. The area is notorious for bad to do so if they demonstrate the degree of callousness weather at that time of year, and the catamaran capsized. and neglect that Irving and Reliance demonstrated in His two crew survived for 11 hours in the Atlantic on its the story I have just related? upturned hull, but they watched Mr Hobley die of hypothermia and slip beneath the waves in the darkness. It is time that the Government seized this nettle. We must have an urgent review to see whether it is possible Alistair Crawford, a young and inexperienced skipper to regulate the yacht delivery industry, at least by imposing on his first trip, was sent to sea to deliver a yacht to the basic standards of integrity and conduct upon it. As the Caribbean. Irving had lied to the owners about Alistair judge in the Admiralty court found, the company had a Crawford’s qualifications, claiming on a falsified CV responsibility to ensure that it was not committing the that he possessed thousands of miles of seagoing experience. skipper to a time scale in this area of the world that no Other yacht companies had warned their employees not reasonable, sensible or prudent ship or yacht operator to put to sea that night, but Alistair Crawford—just like would agree to. What would happen in any other sphere? John Anstess and Steve Hobley—was subjected to pressure In a land-based case, the employer would be guilty of to do so. The yacht foundered, losing its mast, in storm an offence under the 1974 Act for failing to take reasonable conditions and 60-knot winds in the Bay of Biscay. It steps to ensure the safety of his employees. was not equipped to deal with those conditions. Watching tonight will be the families: John’s father, What are the issues raised by this sad and tragic Jack Anstess, and his sister, Wendy, as well as Steve story? Not a single action has been taken by any authority Hobley’s daughter and granddaughter, and the families in this country to bring to account Mr Irving and his of the crew who perished with John off the Oregon company for that story of neglect, irresponsibility and coast on 11 December 2006. My hon. Friend the Minister reckless endangerment of the lives of human beings. is a man of integrity, conscience and compassion, and it The yacht was registered as a pleasure craft and did not is essential that our Government render justice to them. have to meet the rigorous requirement for charter vessels, They cry out for justice; the families expect justice. 1259 Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies 23 MAY 2012 Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies 1260 (Safety Regulations) (Safety Regulations) [Mr Geoffrey Cox] surprised to discover, on looking at the documents, that even though the company in question was registered in Only very rarely must one bring to the House a story the UK, the HSE has no powers. I wondered whether of such tragedy and such outrageous conduct that has anything could be done under the new UK legislation not already been policed or brought to account in the on corporate manslaughter, or under reciprocal courts. In the last resort, it is this House that can render international agreements—we have seen a lot in the justice to those wronged and aggrieved families, and it press about our reciprocal agreements with America—but is my hon. Friend who can commence that process. I am it cannot. grateful for his agreeing to see the family with me in a few weeks’ time, but that will not be sufficient if we do My hon. and learned Friend and I will work together not demonstrate that we are determined to ensure that with the families concerned, and if we can find a way to all the families know this Government and the regulatory prosecute this issue through my Department, my agencies, authorities have done all they can to satisfy their plea, my Secretary of State or through any other Government which I have articulated, for justice and for this man Department, we will do so. My fear is that we will not and his company to be brought to account. find a way, but we will try, and if we can act, we will. Should we not find suitable avenues, I intend to push within government to shut this down for future situations, 7.49 pm which is what John’s sister so desperately wants. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning): In the short time I have remaining, I We are signed up to the international convention for will try as best I can to articulate my thoughts on the the safety of life at sea—or the SOLAS convention—and issue that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for so are all the red ensigns in the Crown protectorate. I Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) has brought to the know that my hon. and learned Friend knows the House’s attention today, and to me privately before this Cayman Islands well, and it flies my flag—the buck debate. It would be wrong of me not to say that my stops with me in respect of the red ensign, no matter thoughts and prayers are with the families of those who where it flies in the world. So we are all party to this. were lost at sea. Going to sea has always been an The regulations are quite explicit. They put the responsibility enormously dangerous occupation—for anybody—and for all navigational decisions in the hands of the master the bravery of our seafarers has been renowned for or skipper of the vessel. The regulations also make it an centuries. offence for anyone to try to pressurise the master into making decisions against his better judgment. That fits It is shocking for me to have to stand before this perfectly within our territorial waters, but not on the House with not one but both hands tied behind my high seas. That is one of the biggest things we can work back. I have questioned my officials at length about the on with the IMO and address in the work we are doing powers that I or other Government agencies have to to tackle crimes at sea. That is because it is the responsibility deal not only with this issue, but with the other serious of the signatory to the regulations and the member crimes at sea that I have recently discussed with the states, although on the high seas the situation is completely International Maritime Organisation—the body with different. responsibility for such matters—so that we can achieve international recognition of the problems. I will return An investigation did take place, and I have some to that issue, if I can, in moment. quotes here from the United States Coast Guard. It I want to express my particular admiration for the investigated the accident, and the quotations that my sister of John Anstess, Mrs Wendy Wood, who has hon. and learned Friend cited were absolutely right. pursued her campaign for improvements in safety not But—this is the big but—it concluded that no criminal just in order to bring to justice those involved in this offence had been committed under US law. That was case, but to protect other seafarers in similar situations the US Coast Guard’s comment, not mine. I have to, who are delivering British yachts and other vessels probably understandably, respect its decision. around the world. We would all like what she is calling I find it astonishing that after Mrs Wood secured the for to actually happen—particularly me, as the Minister civil judgment against the company, the fines were with responsibility for such matters. However, the difficulty paltry—“loose change” would be the polite term for is that, as became clear in discussions with the outgoing them. The fact that the owner has not even paid the and the new secretary-general of the IMO, we cannot fines is another matter. If there is any way we can work act in isolation. The cases that my hon. and learned within government to try to address that, too, we will do Friend referred to are on the other side of the Atlantic. so. It was a civil action, so the situation is slightly We must make sure that we do not simply move this different from that of a criminal action, as my hon. and problem to France or Belgium, for instance, so that the learned Friend understands fully. same terrible situation occurs there. In saying that, it is very important that we get the Nobody in this House would have put the argument facts right. As my hon. and learned Friend said, the across in a more lucid way than my hon. and learned yacht that John was employed to move was not registered Friend. As the Minister responsible for the agencies in the United Kingdom, and the sad loss occurred involved in this situation, I feel that it cannot be right outside our territorial waters. That restricts enormously that we are so restricted within government as to what the powers of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. we can and cannot do, given that we all want to do the As I have said to him, he has full access to the MCA at right thing internationally, as well as here. From the any time, and to any information he requires. He is a discussions I have had with the new secretary- general learned man and perhaps knows more about these of the IMO, I am aware that there is a keenness within matters than I do, but I can only go by the legal advice I the international community to address the terrible am given. We have no powers in this regard. I was very situation of serious crimes at sea, of which this is one, 1261 Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies 23 MAY 2012 Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies 1262 (Safety Regulations) (Safety Regulations) that go, not “uninvestigated”, although I nearly said I am believe that I am very close to the time when I that, but without reaching the natural justice that we will have to sit down, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank would all be looking for. you for your kind nod. The last thing that I wish to say This is not the only incident that I have been working is that I will certainly meet the families as soon as we on recently. It is right and proper that my hon. and possibly can. I will work with my hon. and learned learned Friend has brought these issues to me, but I am Friend and the families, and with anyone else who dealing with other issues where people have been raped wants to work with us, so that we do everything we can at sea, murdered at sea or have vanished off ships on the to see whether this prosecution is possible and, if it is high seas. One of the things that I have found really not, to make sure that we protect other families’ loved difficult is that one of the defences from some of the ones when they put to sea on the high seas. smaller flag nations is that they—perhaps—do not see Question put and agreed to. the offence as serious enough or perhaps do not have enough funding within their police authority to investigate it fully. That is no excuse at all, and that is one of the big 7.58 pm issues that we are continuing to raise at the moment. House adjourned.

67WH 23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 68WH

exemption for the Cornish pasty or the baking industry. Westminster Hall I want to set out a framework that delivers the Government’s intention of consistency and simplicity. I am delighted to have the support of my hon. Wednesday 23 May 2012 Friends the Members for St Ives (Andrew George), for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), [MR LEE SCOTT in the Chair] and for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), and that of many other hon. Members from across the House and the country, including an alliance, however Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) unlikely, with Devon. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting It is understandable that the Government should be now adjourned.—(Jeremy Wright.) seek to move away from the current situation in respect of VAT on hot food, where the basis of the test rests on 9.30 am the intention of the supplier. That is subjective, and has led to considerable inconsistency of application. In Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): It is recent years, a plethora of case law tribunals have a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, established significant anomalies—for example, two hours Mr Scott, and to welcome so many hon. Members. I for zero-rated food, a position exploited by supermarkets place on the record my personal thanks to Mr Speaker in particular. for enabling the debate, which was originally slated for In place of that subjective and contestable test of the day of Prorogation and so fell from the order of intention, the Government’s proposals attempt to move business. I am grateful to Mr Speaker for allowing it to towards a more precise test that centres on ambient air take place today instead. temperature, but that simply replaces one set of anomalies There is much to welcome in the Budget announced with another when it comes to baked products—pasties, by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, particularly the sausage rolls, meat and potato pies and all the other lifting of more than 2 million of the lowest paid out of savoury staples in our high street. There is little doubt paying income tax and the additional tax burden placed that the ambient air temperature test will become the on those fortunate enough to be among the wealthiest subject of significant dispute between bakeries and in our society. However, I would not be doing my job as HMRC, with the potential for litigation. Why is that? a Member of Parliament if I welcomed only the good The ambient air temperature is constantly changing. As news from the coalition Government and turned a blind the temperature of a naturally cooling baked product is eye to Government proposals that had a significant also constantly changing, it raises the possibility of a negative impact on my constituents and the country. pasty or pie at the same temperature being subject to The proposals for the extension of VAT to hot food, different VAT rules in different parts of the country at and in particular how they relate to baked goods, fall the same moment. That is clearly a nonsensical position into that category. that will place considerable difficulties in establishing a I am, however, grateful to the Minister and to other consistent ambient air temperature for every bakery in colleagues in Government for the constructive way in the country, a duty unlikely to be welcomed by HMRC. which they have handled this issue and the concerns It will place an additional difficulty for the businesses raised by me, my hon. Friends and the industry. I found concerned in deciding when to charge the customer them willing to listen and receptive to alternative solutions. VAT. It is surely in the best tradition of Government to The proposed changes would be open to challenge in recognise that none of us has a monopoly on wisdom. terms of legal certainty, and could tie up the industry Their constructive engagement with me and others has and the Government in the courts for some time. The been welcome. changes are contrary to the stated intention of the I support the overall aims of the Government. It is consultation—to simplify current rules and reduce right to seek to simplify the application of VAT rules on uncertainty and costs for both businesses and HMRC. hot food, to close anomalies that have been exploited by The ambient air temperature has already been found supermarkets and others and raise revenue from those wanting by the courts. In the Court of Appeal, during flouting the rules, to help tackle the national deficit and the Pimblett case in 1988, Lord Justice Parker said: create a level playing field between bakeries and other “The test is a precise one. It involves a remarkable result that sellers of hot food, such as fish and chips. However, we frozen food would be regarded as hot if the ambient temperature have to do so in a way that actually creates simplicity, is was one degree lower than freezing. A praiseworthy attempt to enforceable by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, is produce precision does not, in this instance, appear to me to have deliverable by businesses across the country, and, crucially, advanced clarity one wit”. is understandable for consumers. The effect of the To an extent, that view seems to be shared by colleagues Government’s current proposals on the baking industry in the Treasury. In my discussions with them, it seems fall short in all four of those tests. that the Government’s intention is not even to enforce I would like to set out the practical problems and the letter of the proposed rules, but to make a number concerns with the Government’s proposals, and the of assumptions based on the quantity of each bakery’s likely economic impact on the baking sector if the products that should be standard-rated. That is untenable. proposals are not altered, and then present an alternative Any apportionment scheme cannot override the basic way forward that I hope will achieve the Government’s rules on supply, consideration and liability. That is even aims without any negative impact. I am not proposing, recognised in HMRC’s guidance. Any agreement based however tempting it is, to stand here and argue for an on the temperature of cooling products will be impossible 69WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 70WH

[Stephen Gilbert] It has been estimated that some 2,000 jobs throughout the UK are at risk and 300 bakeries on our high streets given the size and variation in bakeries and the fact that are at risk of closure. With the impact of the ongoing a reference point for ambient air temperature cannot be recession and the significant supply side inflation of established. recent years, the baking industry is unable to absorb the There are a number of other practical difficulties for imposition of the standard rate of VAT, and price businesses. When do they issue a VAT receipt if requested increases are inevitable. Research from YouGov shows to do so by customers? They will have to re-write till clearly that this proposal is unpopular with the public—69% software systems and determine the price on which VAT of people have said that they do not support it—and would be charged, all set against the unworkable backdrop that is also demonstrated in a petition signed by more of legislation that will be prone to confusion and challenge. than 50,000 people, which hon. Friends and I gave recently to Downing street. That research also suggests Another issue relates to products sold on a seasonal that the measure will change people’s behaviour, with basis—perhaps we can add mince pies to the list. At up to one in three people saying that they will stop what point would HMRC agree with bakeries on the buying baked savouries. Consumers being able easily to apportionment scheme for seasonal products such as swap to cheaper zero-rated alternatives will impact on mince pies? I doubt whether that would be able to be the entire supply chain, but with no net additional done in a timely way, and it shows that the Government’s receipts to the Exchequer. tests are unworkable. If agreement on an apportionment scheme cannot be reached, the industry will have to fall As I said, the National Association of Master Bakers back on legislation, which would be problematic at the estimates that some 2,000 jobs will be lost nationally, very least. many hundreds of which will be lost in Cornwall. The Government’s current proposals are unenforceable Bakeries will close on our high streets, creating more by HMRC and undeliverable by the industry. They will empty units at a time when, through the Portas review be confusing to customers and open to challenge in the and other measures, the Government are seeking to courts. boost the high street. The overall economic costs created will undermine any additional tax from the baking industry. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): My hon. Friend has ably demolished the Government’s primary claim that Cornwall Food and Drink estimates that at least 100 the measure is a means by which they can resolve an businesses in Cornwall contribute to the production of anomaly. The Treasury knows that wherever a line is more than 170 million Cornish pasties each year. The drawn, even a new line, a new anomaly is created. Does total turnover of the industry is thought to be more my hon. Friend agree that under all Governments the than £280 million, double the estimates of 2005. It is a Treasury tends to use sophistry when arguing that it is growing industry. At least 25% of the turnover is spent resolving an anomaly and that that is simply a way of in the local economy; the industry is thought to be increasing tax income? worth £72 million indirectly, with £15 million going to Cornish farmers. Stephen Gilbert: My hon. Friend puts his finger on Pasty production produces other socio-economic benefits the Treasury’s intention, but I will demonstrate that the as well as purely economic ones, supporting village negative effects of the measure make it unlikely that any shops in rural communities, for example. It is a vital net additional revenue would be raised, when the damage part of the Cornish economy, which still languishes on to jobs, business rates and so on is taken on board. He is European aid. right to say that the Government expect to raise money In 2011, the university of Exeter showed that keeping from this measure—their impact assessment suggested retail prices down while suffering strong increases in that £50 million would be raised in the first year, rising input costs, particularly fuel and other costs, would to £120 million annually in subsequent years—but at seriously affect margins in the Cornish food and drink what cost would that be to the baking industry in sector. The industry is clear that it cannot afford to particular? I am afraid that it will cost jobs and investment absorb the potential increase in VAT, which will be in an industry that we want to see more of, not less, on passed to consumers. our high streets. What does that mean for my constituents? The impact Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend is will be devastating. The producers, retailers and suppliers making a powerful argument. Surely there has been will lose more than £100 million a year, an estimated unfairness in the takeaway industry, with the fish and 1,100 jobs will be lost and scores of high street bakeries chip shop up against the supermarket selling hot chickens, will close. These proposals come at a time when retailers, as he has already mentioned. There has to be a clear including food-to-go shops, have already been hit by an definition of what constitutes takeaway food, because additional £350 million business rate bill this year and that is lacking at the moment. when the sector overall already contributes £5 billion a year in VAT—some 9% of the total VAT take—despite Stephen Gilbert: I share my hon. Friend’s concern. accounting for only 5% of gross domestic product. The There needs to be a level playing field. I shall say how I British Retail Consortium tells us that consumer spending seek to achieve that for the Government, but with a is falling and household incomes are shrinking. simpler test. He is right to say that there is confusion Sadly, there is no evidence that HMRC has considered between different takeaway outlets and types of takeaway the impact on the cost of welfare payments resulting food. That is also reflected in planning law, in which from job losses, the reduced amount of corporation tax takeaways selling fish and chips are in a different category that the Revenue will receive, the loss of income tax and from bakeries. national insurance revenue as a consequence of the 71WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 72WH bakery industry’s contracting, and the high street supply That would not interfere with the Government’s proposals chain’s being hit, including the loss of business-rate to charge VAT on hot food cooked to order and provided revenue to local authorities. hot to the customer for consumption. There is also the socio-economic consideration, pointed I am sure that the Minister will want to consult out by the Association of Convenience Stores, among Treasury counsel on the exact wording of any change others. This change will hit the least well off the most. and that he has a mountain of responses from the The poorest households spend almost one fifth of their consultation to wade through. However, my view is held net household incomes on VAT, but the richest spend not only by myself, but my hon. Friends and the industry. only 9%. The measure will compound that, hitting the In practice, our suggestion would mean that a pasty lunch of hundreds of thousands of people throughout sold in a fish and chip shop that is currently standard-rated, the country. because it is kept hot for sale alongside some pre-cooked fish or a battered sausage, would be on the level playing What is the alternative? The Cornish Pasty Association, field sought by the Minister and my right hon. Friend the National Association of Master Bakers, Greggs, the the Prime Minister. West Cornwall Pasty Company and others have suggested The alternative would mean that any pasty kept hot in their responses to the Government’s consultation for sale in a bakery would also be standard-rated, that we need to return to the original intention. VAT achieving the level playing field that the Government was first extended to hot takeaway food in 1984 by the want in a way that is enforceable by HMRC. By closing then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Nigel Lawson, who the loopholes exploited by the supermarkets, the measure said in his Budget speech: would raise at least £56 million per annum, which is “Most food is zero rated, but food served in restaurants is equivalent to the vast bulk of the Government’s expected taxed, together with a miscellaneous range of items including ice revenue from the changes. cream, confectionery…Takeaway food clearly competes with other forms of catering, and I therefore intend to bring into tax hot The alternative provides a simple test for business: take-away food and drinks”.—[Official Report, 13 March 1984; VAT on baked goods that are kept hot artificially, and Vol. 56, c. 303.] no VAT on those that are hot simply as a result of their cooling process. It avoids the legal uncertainty and That relates to the point that my hon. Friend the likely challenge to HMRC, it delivers to the customer a Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) ably made clear and understandable difference in pricing—VAT about the need for a level playing field. on a product that is kept hot, no VAT for a product that The then Chancellor elaborated that statement in a is not—it allows flexibility for businesses to adapt their written response to the former Member of Parliament models accordingly and, crucially, industry suggests, it for Leeds South, Merlyn Rees: would have none of the damaging effects that I outlined earlier. “The VAT extension to hot take-away food which I announced in the Budget applies to food and drink which has been deliberately My view and that of my hon. Friends is that the heated so that it can be consumed whilst still hot. It does not Government’s proposals are unenforceable, are undeliverable apply to food and drink which has cooled to room temperature by by business, replace one set of anomalies with another, the time it is sold, or to things like pies and pasties which are sold are likely to be heavily contested and will do significant warm because they happen to be freshly baked, and not to enable damage to the Cornish economy and to high streets them to be consumed while still hot.” throughout the country. By contrast, the alternative I could not have put it better myself. That is the fundamental proposal put forward by me and my hon. Friends is difference between a meal cooked to order in a fish and clear and consistent, is enforceable by the Revenue, chip shop—or a curry or a pizza—and a baked product, closes the loopholes exploited by the supermarkets— which is simply hot as a result of its production, but therefore raising the vast bulk of the revenue that the cools naturally over time. The former Chancellor recognised Treasury wishes to obtain—and creates the level playing that baked products are hot or warm by virtue of being field with the fish and chip shops that my right hon. baked, not because they are made to order and hot for Friend the Prime Minister rightly demands. It is deliverable consumption in the same way as curry or fish and chips and would be publicly welcomed by the baking industry. are. His position has not been challenged by subsequent I hope that the Minister will say in his remarks that he is Governments and it is my view, and that of my hon. actively considering our alternative as the consultation Friends, that it should be upheld while we seek to clarify proceeds. the additional anomalies that have arisen since 1984. Several hon. Members rose— To put it crudely, we can hit the £280 million rotisserie chicken business and provide the level playing field with Mr Lee Scott (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the fish and chips, but we must maintain the additional next speaker, let me say that the wind-ups will start at principle of food being hot at the time it is provided to 10.40 am at the latest. I call John Mann. the customer, recognising the differences that the former Chancellor recognised many years ago. The additional 9.51 am principle should be that baked goods are zero-rated, except where they are kept hot for consumption. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Scott, it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship for the In short, we seek to amend the Government’s proposals first time. I congratulate the hon. Member for St Austell to include the provision that VAT on baked goods and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) on securing the debate should be charged only if they are kept in heated and on his accurate description of the problem that the cabinets or if other paraphernalia are used to keep them Government have got him into. I appreciate his panic, hot for sale, in the same way that battered fish and chips because with this betrayal of Cornwall one almost are kept hot for sale in a cabinet in fish and chip shops. expects Mr Sacha Baron Cohen to appear at the door. 73WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 74WH

[John Mann] closed two years previously, so it was a time-lapsed pasty which, by definition, must have gone cold in the For 100 years, the Liberals have been out of power, time. But he ate the pasty. then the first time that they can get into a real argument Let us take a railway station such as Knutsford—let and debate it is on the destruction of the core Cornish us assume that there is a station there, although I have industry. One could not make that up. We know why it not been to the Chancellor’s constituency—or think of has happened. When I asked my innocent question of our own stations. We might have a traditional English the Chancellor in the Treasury Committee, he was baker outside the station, baking away, producing Cornish somewhat stumped by the fact that there might be a pasties and the rest. Currently, those products are VAT-free, problem. The reason he was stumped is that he is not a but they will now have the 20% applied, although the man who pays any attention to detail—that has been Government are still looking at how to define their new proven time and time again. Ask him a factual question, criteria. Inside the station we have a café; the baker he gives a vague answer. That is a problem for someone passes the baked products on to the café, which sells who is the Chancellor of the Exchequer meddling with them, and the Government might say, “Ah, hot product, detail. There is good reason why no Chancellor has it has got to be VAT-ed.” But how do we do that? It has meddled with such details since 1984—because the detail been passed on and is no longer baked on the premises, is so complex that whatever rules they come up with, it so it must be zero-rated. We must make sure that there is is possible to find a way round them. I shall explain no anomaly. some likely scenarios in a minute. What about seats? If there are seats, we might apply What has been the Government’s stock response, fed VAT because it is a café. Yet it is in a railway station, to their loyal Back Benchers over the past month or so? and the railway station decides in this beautiful temperature Fish and chips. Yet,coming from the country’s heartland to have some seats outside the café. The Government of fish and chips, I do not recall anyone in my lifetime have their test of ambient temperature, so we have who eats fish and chips cold. Unless the Government ambient temperatures inside and outside the café—I surreptitiously intend to continue to spread VAT to hope that hon. Members will go to Bakewell and see the include cold foods, in which case the nation would like on-street seating available for those who wish to purchase to be informed of the plan, they need to reverse the Bakewell puddings there. So, inside and outside, there absurd decision that was made. are different ambient temperatures—ah, clever Government! We might therefore ensure that all the chairs are Let me give some examples, because it is not only incorporated inside the café, but it is a railway station Cornwall that has been betrayed—England has been and Network Rail has put a couple of benches outside. betrayed. I mentioned Bakewell pudding in the Finance Will we have different temperatures between the railway Bill Committee yesterday, and Ministers started muttering bench and the café seats, and between the café seats about almonds. Attention to detail is everything for inside and outside? There is also the baker who serves Treasury Ministers. When I talk about the Bakewell inside and the baker who has a little hatch and serves pudding, I am not talking of a processed derivative outside. Such examples show precisely why since 1984 created by a Mr Kipling, sold in supermarkets with the concept of ambient temperature has been ducked, almonds on top and bearing no comparison to the as Treasury officials have tried to persuade every single traditional English Bakewell pudding. The Bakewell Chancellor since then to extend VAT. Of course, now tart is an entirely different product and, because it is that has happened, although things could get worse. cold, is zero-rated. No, I am talking about the Bakewell pudding, the quintessential English product made as it I know that the Chancellor likes his football, and the has been for many centuries, using traditional methods, nation groaned during the Champions League final. of which Prince Charles and many others, myself included, People support their own team, but the Prime Minister, would wholly approve—doing things in the traditional who is allegedly an Aston Villa fan, was cheering Chelsea. way, passing on the skills needed to create the product. That is a contradiction. As the cup was lifted, the Now, solely because Bakewell pudding is made in the Minister for Sport and the Olympics was, rightly, in his traditional way, it will be taxed at 20%. If the manufacturers place, and who was alongside him? The Chancellor, the of the Bakewell pudding were to use processed ingredients, new Chelsea supporter. When politicians are having they would be able to concoct a product—vastly inferior, problems, they pretend to support a football team that but in some way with the same name; as I pointed out, a is winning. If it loses, they disappear into the hospitality major manufacturer has already done so—which would room, but if it wins, they are there, beaming. I know be zero-rated, but we lose the English tradition, we lose what the nation said when it saw him on their telly the real food. There are other such examples. screens. The Chancellor’s local team is Macclesfield Town, and I happened to be there for a match in By definition, the businesses involved are small businesses. January. Those traditions, kept in the traditional way, cannot be transported into some mass-produced product sold in Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Will supermarkets throughout the country and the world. the hon. Gentleman explain the connection between That is the point and that is what we will lose if those hot baked food and football matches? I would be fascinated traditional producers are disadvantaged by being charged to hear it. 20% VAT under this cack-handed measure. Let me give another example. There has been a rush John Mann: I am about to do that. Macclesfield to eat pasties among senior politicians, including the Town’s stadium, like every football stadium, has a pie Chancellor. The Prime Minister allegedly once ate a shop, but the Chancellor does not know that. When he pasty on Leeds station—a station I know extremely goes to a football match, he is in the corporate hospitality well, coming from Leeds—but from a shop that had room, so VAT is not an issue because he does not pay, 75WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 76WH just as he does not pay for his ticket or his travel, but job provided valuable support for me when I was a that is another issue. The Chancellor does not pay for student. As my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell corporate hospitality, so whether something is VAT-ed and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) said, the industry now does not matter to him. But I was stood there, hungry, employs a huge number of people in Cornwall, as does having gone to Macclesfield to watch a cup match the retail side elsewhere in the country. between Macclesfield Town and Bolton. I went to the I followed what the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said. pie stall, where pies are heated up on the premises. Will I would be delighted to pop to a station in my constituency they be VAT-ed or not? If I buy a takeaway, will it be to talk through the issues he raised but, sadly, I do VAT-ed or not? If I heat it up in a microwave in the not have any stations in my constituency. It is a mere corner, will it be VAT-ed or not? If the shop staff heat it 500 square miles, and there is no room for one, but I up in the microwave, will it be VAT-ed or not? Will there hope that the Government, who, as the hon. Gentleman be a fancy process to avoid the VAT? It is fairly obvious said, take a close interest in Cornish affairs, will remedy how that can be defined. that situation which, sadly, was not remedied under the The Government could introduce criteria for seating, previous Government. so that if I sit down in the nice seats—there are not The importance of the matter in the Budget has been many seats at Macclesfield Town—I might pay VAT, questioned, and even in Cornwall people have said that but not if I stand up, as I did. Those anomalies will many issues need to be dealt with: the state of the arise whatever way the Government move. My appeal economy; sorting out public services to ensure that they to this out-of-touch, anti-English, inept-on-detail Treasury are the most efficient and best delivered; and the inequality team and Government is to do their friends the Liberals in funding. Cornwall receives lower school funding, and a favour. They are up 4% in the north of England, and so on. It is right to raise such matters, and I, with my 2% in recent elections in my area, but the Government hon. Friends throughout Cornwall, will do so. should give them a fighting chance in the south-west, An issue should not be put to one side and allowed to and do the decent thing for England: get rid of this go through unexamined, untested and unreformed just nonsense, and introduce a system that the country because it affects a specific group of people. Although it wants, which is no VAT on pasties, and no VAT on might affect a smaller group of people than some Bakewell puddings. Keep things as they are. broader problems, it is incredibly important to those it does affect in terms of the economic impact and, as the 10.2 am hon. Member for Bassetlaw said, traditional skills. I Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): It is a pleasure was only peeling onions, and I was not let loose on to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Lee. I am delighted crimping pasties, but I am sure that my hon. Friend the to follow the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), Member for South East Cornwall is very experienced in who made a passionate speech in defence of the Bakewell that, and could give a demonstration if visual aids were pudding, which I hate to say I have not sampled, but I allowed during debates. will remedy that. Hon. Members may be surprised The Budget measures that my hon. Friend the Member when looking at me to learn that I enjoy the occasional for St Austell and Newquay welcomed include the increase baked goods from establishments—[Laughter.] I know in the income tax threshold, the biggest pension increase, that that is hard to believe, and that they expect me to and the commitment to the pupil premium—on Friday, go to salad bars, but now and again I like to support the with the Deputy Prime Minister, I talked to the head baking industry. teacher at a local school about how that is having an In my maiden speech in the House, I took the opportunity effect. Those are good news stories, and it is good to to talk about the campaign for protected geographical hear from people how they are benefiting from them. indication status for the Cornish pasty, a battle that was However, we must not ignore the smaller issues that are fought and won. One can buy pasties with many interesting incredibly important to some people. fillings throughout the country, but Cornish pasties can My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and be bought only if they have been made in Cornwall, no Newquay pointed out the wonderful anomaly whereby matter where they were baked. That is a serious point, when the ambient temperature is below freezing, a because it protects jobs, and the quality of the traditional frozen pasty would have to be sold, with VAT, as hot recipe. In Cornwall, we are proud of the Cornish pasty, food. That sums up the huge problem and a further and if someone is eating one, we want them to eat a anomaly. I suppose the Treasury could create an arbitrary proper one. “Proper” is an important word in Cornwall, cut-off point, but we are not going to the heart of the and that campaign successfully delivered the mark of problem, which is a sensible, cogent system. We come, quality. therefore, to the proposal that my hon. Friend and Businesses in Cornwall that invested in making that others have advanced: if a hot cabinet is used to keep hand-made product, which is now sent throughout the something warm, it falls into the same category as fish country and baked locally, have created a huge number and chips and other foods that are kept warm to the of jobs. They have created permanent jobs, part-time point of sale. That is easily seen, and easily inspectable jobs, particularly during peak times in the summer, and by the poor employees of HMRC who may have to do even jobs for students. I am aware of that because when spot checks, and there would not be negotiation about I was a student, I spent a summer making proper the proportion of hot and cold food sold in every shop. Cornish pasties in Bodmin. I had the glamorous job of If the Government adopt that sensible position, we going in at 5 o’clock in the morning to peel onions until might find that those who represent the industry making about 3 o’clock in the afternoon, and the pasties were hot cabinets call for a debate in this Chamber. We had ready for the next day. I am delighted that, the business lots of petitions last night on behalf of the caravan having grown, the onions now come already peeled. industry, and wherever the Government turn, employers That saves someone from having yellow hands, but the will be affected. However, there is a simple cut-off 77WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 78WH

[Dan Rogerson] To return to the Cornish perspective, the feeling is that there is a lack of recognition of a strong sense of point, and people who want to buy hot food, wherever identity and of Cornishness. To mention another visual it is sold, can have that option and accept that they will aid, when the last runner with the Olympic flame left pay VAT on the takeaway. Cornwall and set off across the Tamar bridge, he held in Bakeries are different. As my hon. Friend pointed his hands a Cornish flag that was sadly confiscated by out, if people are asked whether they want another the police who were running alongside. To many in takeaway in their town centre, the answer will probably Cornwall, such things send out a signal that English, be no. Many already exist, and we have heard about Welsh or Scottish identity is fine, but we do not really different use classes, which are appropriate in many want to know about Cornish identity. I know, however, locations. Bakeries belong in the heart of town centres. that that is not the case in the Treasury, which understands Nearby shops would love to have a bakery there because the issue. As a Scot, my right hon. Friend the Chief it increases the footfall and the sense of local provenance Secretary to the Treasury understands that sense of of the goods on sale. Bakeries give a very different feel Celtic identity, and I know that the Treasury will listen to a town centre or a village—we do still have, clinging sympathetically. Along with my hon. Friend the Member on, a few villages that contain bakeries. for St Austell and Newquay, and other hon. Members, I urge all Treasury Ministers to look at the sensible alternative that has been proposed. It has a clear cut-off Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Does the point and is enforceable, and I hope that the Treasury hon. Gentleman agree that the possible loss of 300 shops will respond positively to the consultation. on our high streets as a result of this tax would be a severe blow, which would greatly affect high-street businesses 10.13 am and jobs across the country? Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): May I say “Well done” to the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay Dan Rogerson: I entirely agree with the hon. Lady. (Stephen Gilbert), who I will call my hon. Friend, for In conclusion, I wish to add a little extra plea for the securing this important debate? He has made an Cornish pasty. My hon. Friend the Member for St exceptionally intelligent contribution to a significant Austell and Newquay was generous, and hands have discussion. been stretched across the river Tamar between Cornwall I will speak only for a couple of minutes, but I want and England as people have spoken about their respective to register my concerns about the tax under discussion, products that they value and support. In Cornwall, and touch on the impact that it will have on the high however, there is a feeling that the Government are street and hard-working families. As my hon. Friend taxing something that people might eat instead of a the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) pointed sandwich or some other cold product that they would out, it is possible that 300 shops will close as a result of find elsewhere. There is a cultural element to that. this proposal. The current rate of retail vacancies in People love a pasty; it is what they grew up with and shops across our high streets stands at around 14%, and what their mums, grannies or aunties made at home. I cannot help thinking that this proposal will have a Everyone has a favourite shop to go to, and that is part further impact. of what it means to grow up in Cornwall. Furthermore, As has been said, we want more bakeries and a we are a very low-income part of the country. diverse range of shops across the high street, yet this proposal puts at risk retailers such as Greggs and Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) rose— Greenhalgh’s in my constituency, as well as independent shops such as Wells bakery on Oldham road in Rochdale, which is a fantastic bakery that makes the best meat and Dan Rogerson: I will happily give way to the hon. potato pie that people can get their hands on. We want Gentleman who has experience of this issue. a retail mix and vibrancy, but this proposal creates a real problem and puts a burden on those businesses. It Mr Offord: The hon. Gentleman is making a good comes on top of the 5.6% increase in business rates—the speech. Does he agree that the pasty was originally largest increase in 20 years—that retailers and other created for miners going to work? Nowadays, people businesses have experienced since it was brought in last around the country who are not able to have a plated September and applied this financial year, and we are meal often have a pasty or another baked product as a adding further taxes to that. substitute. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that this tax In the context of diversity, one point that has not yet discriminates against those people as it may not allow been raised is the impact of this tax on other segments them to have a proper nourishing meal at midday? of the retail mix, in particular Asian sweet centres. A number of such places in my constituency, particularly Dan Rogerson: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely on Milkstone road, sell not only Asian sweets but right, and having been educated in Cornwall, he knows samosas and pakoras. Will the Minister say whether all about the importance of the pasty. As he said, the this tax burden will also apply to those products? I have pasty was designed for taking down the mine and has a no doubt that my constituents will be interested to hear crust that can be left behind after being held with a dirty whether this is also a samosa tax, as well as a pasty tax. hand. It would have been baked hot, taken down the Finally, let me look at the impact of this tax on mine and consumed cold, as it was unlikely to still be hard-working families, because I get the impression that hot by the time the miners got to it. Many other people the Government do not understand ordinary working will buy something hot from a bakery and eat it later in people’s lives. Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister the day, which is different from the cold fish and chips spoke about snobbery in education, but I believe that that we have been hearing about. snobbery is also attached to pies, pasties and samosas. 79WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 80WH

Members might be aware of a lady from Rochdale Sheryll Murray: That was an issue that I intended to called Gillian Duffy who challenged my right hon. come on to, because where is the definition of baked Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath food? Will we find that we are paying VAT on hot bread (Mr Brown) during the last general election. Gillian is a that comes out of the oven? I urge my hon. Friend the very good friend of mine, she occasionally bakes me a Minister to consider all these implications. cheese and onion pie, which I enjoy. For some unknown I feel uneasy about how the tax will be implemented reason, The Guardian newspaper got hold of that with the highly ambiguous term “ambient temperature”. information and ran a story about it, ridiculing me for That is variable and therefore very difficult to enforce. eating Gillian Duffy’s cheese and onion pies, as though Thirteen businesses in my constituency are members of that was in some way inappropriate. People are snobbish the Cornish Pasty Association. That is just over a about the fact that people, perhaps in northern towns or quarter of the whole membership. Many of those are in Cornwall, like and enjoy pies and pasties. small businesses and they are mostly family-run businesses. They have spoken to me and to my hon. Friends the John Mann: They are all sushi eaters. Members for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) and for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), who would have loved to be here today. Simon Danczuk: That’s right; absolutely. In reality, pies, pasties and samosas are part of the staple diet of I shall point out one particular case. Mr Richard ordinary people, and we should not forget that. The Rice is the director of Dashers Pasties, a pasty shop in Government are placing an additional burden on hard- my local town of Torpoint. He spoke to me about his working families. People in Rochdale I speak to think concerns. It is a small business, with an annual turnover that this tax is absolutely absurd. They laugh at the of about £160,000 a year. Torpointboasts two supermarkets, Government and find it peculiar that such a tax would and Mr Rice is concerned that the supermarkets may be be applied. It feeds the public perception that the able to afford not to pass the VAT on to the consumer, Government just do not get it and are on a different whereas local businesses such as Dashers will have to planet, and I urge them to drop these proposals. charge 50p or 60p more per pasty, which is a massive increase in the price of the product. Bakers are already having to absorb ever-increasing utility bills and the rising cost of ingredients. They believe that the only 10.18 am winners will be the supermarkets, which have the ability Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): It is a to keep their prices low. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Scott, My hon. Friends the Members for Truro and Falmouth and I congratulate my neighbour and hon. Friend the and for Camborne and Redruth also met people from Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) Rowe’s bakeries, who gave them a similar message. That on securing this debate. sentiment was shared by the chairman of the Cornish As the granddaughter of a Cornish baker, nobody Pasty Association, who led the demonstration earlier knows more than I what it is like to make a pasty. Yes, I this month know the ingredients, and yes, I can crimp a pasty. “to raise awareness of the greater implications” Today, I speak on behalf of my constituents in South of this tax. A petition has gained 500,000 signatures. East Cornwall who are all exceptionally concerned about That roughly equates to the population of Cornwall. I the proposed VAT on hot baked food, although of hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the course that is not restricted to the pasty. Exchequer and the Minister can see the knock-on effect that the tax will have and how people will clearly be The only time that I lived away from Cornwall was disadvantaged. when I spent some years in Stoke-on-Trent, where the meat and potato pie was very popular. However, the When considering how the Government will implement pasty in particular is a big part of the famed Cornish the changes, we meet a whole series of problems—things heritage and history, of which we are all so proud. I will that need to be simplified. “Ambient temperature” is a be discussing my deep concerns about the introduction dependent variable and very difficult to enforce against. of VAT on pasties and other hot foods, because this tax It would result in products being taxed based on the will affect many small businesses such as traditional weather and heat retention, as we have heard from bakeries in my constituency and will no doubt have many other hon. Members. That could lead to significant knock-on effects on the already struggling town centres. legal action while tax inspectors and local hard-pressed In South East Cornwall, there are six very small town pasty makers argue over the tax due. centres, which are seeing the life drained from them. If I believe in a much simpler distinction—that a baked we see the bakeries decline as well, we will be going product is VATable only when an effort has been made completely against the principle of what Mary Portas by the vendor to keep the product hot. I signed an has been trying to do. amendment to the Bill expressing that sentiment after the Budget was announced. The tax code is complicated enough. I hope that the Chancellor will consider that Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Does the hon. Lady agree proposal as a serious alternative to deciding whether that one of the unintended consequences—I believe VAT is chargeable based on the ambient temperature. that they are unintended—is that small bakers will be On 28 March, I wrote to the Chancellor, outlining my further hit by this tax applying to freshly baked products views and saying: such as scones, doughnuts and muffins? They happen to “Surely the last thing we need is to employ an army of be warm because they have just been baked, but are a thermometer wielding tax inspectors poking our pasties to see if whole category of food that clearly is not intended to be they have cooled enough”. eaten hot. The tax will further penalise those bakers as I still believe in that sentiment and I hope that the against supermarkets. Chancellor will consider what I have said today. 81WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 82WH

10.25 am processed ingredients. That is much less healthy for us than buying proper quality stuff. I therefore have some Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure to sympathy for my hon. Friend the Minister in his speak under your chairmanship, Mr Scott. I join in the predicament. It would be useful if he could set out what congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for St has tipped the Treasury over the edge into making the Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) on securing the change. Was it a case of having to get the train home debate. Those of us with a history in taxation wish that and thinking, “I’m a bit hungry. It’s been a long day in every new tax measure could be the subject of an hour the Treasury. I can’t face the Chancellor’s bowl of jelly. and a half of detailed debate. I suspect that we would I’ll have something from the station on my way. If I go make much better law if that were the case. to McDonald’s and buy a burger, I pay VAT, but if I This is an interesting situation. I think that we all go to that nice-looking pasty stand, which seems to be agree that tackling tax avoidance and sorting out anomalies selling only hot pasties, for some reason there is no is something that the Government should do, but when VAT”? Is that the contrast that tipped him over the edge they come forward with proposals, there is a huge or is it the fact that supermarkets are selling things that outcry about them, because trying to sort out some of clearly should be VATable but they are manipulating those anomalies is much harder than people think. The their way around that? Is that what tipped the Treasury reason why this anomaly has lasted for nearly 30 years over the edge? It would be interesting to know. is that it is incredibly hard to sort out. I jokingly wonder whether, if the Government had called this a fat tax, it Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I am grateful would have received a lot more support, but I am not to my hon. Friend for taking my intervention, particularly sure that that is a road I would like to encourage them as I missed the first part of the debate. He is very to go down. generous. Since I have been an MP,I have been approached Like many other hon. Members, I am concerned several times by fish and chip shop owners. Perhaps about the impact on high street bakeries, especially the unusually for an MP, they are the only approaches I small local ones that are a real attraction on the high have had—and I have had a lot—complaining bitterly street. I am talking about those shops on the high street about unfair competition, because people are selling that drag people in to shop there because they like the pasties and using a microwave to heat them up after better-quality product, the choice and the service that they have been sold. I understand exactly why people they get, compared with the standard, bland products are concerned, but if we are challenging the whole that they might think they get from a supermarket. concept of VAT on pasties, we need an answer—I I can list many bakeries in my constituency. There is certainly need one—on that issue. Luke Evans, which has a factory shop that has been in existence for 200 years. There is the Birds chain of Nigel Mills: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that bakeries, which I suspect the hon. Member for Bassetlaw intervention. The point I was trying to make was about (John Mann) will know well; it is a big chain in the area. a craft baker on the high street who is not trying to be a It has just opened a new shop on Heanor high street, takeaway in disguise for VAT planning, which is in and given that Heanor is a high street with some challenges, contrast to what looks like something trying to be a anyone opening a new or revamped shop there is very takeaway, but is in fact something different. That is welcome. perhaps one of the things that has tipped the Treasury I have real sympathy for such businesses. Their shops over the line. It would be interesting to know what sell a wide range of products. Pasties and sausage rolls mischief it is trying to fix. Which bad guys are we are a sizeable part of that range, although nowhere near tackling? I honestly suspect that the bad guys are not the majority of their trade. They are one very useful the high street craft bakers who will be dragged into way of getting income and dragging customers in. this. Their staff will be in a horrible situation. However, they are clearly craft bakeries, selling freshly I went to a couple of bakers in my constituency to see baked products. That is how they make their money. what the measure will mean. The sausage rolls are out They are not trying to be a disguised takeaway or to of the oven and slowly cooling down in the very much flout the law. They are trying to run a perfectly sensible, non-heated—I was careful to check—displays in the viable and valuable business of long standing that we shop. I guess that if they have been there for 20 minutes, desperately want to support in our high street. they will still be hot, and therefore there might be VAT. If they have been there for 30 minutes, they might be on Mr Offord: My hon. Friend is making an eloquent the border. If they have been there for 40 minutes, speech. Does he agree with my constituent, Jonathan perhaps they are cold enough for no VAT. I have a Grodzinski, who runs Grodzinski’s bakeries, a business horrible picture of the member of staff having to poke that has been in his family for well over 120 years, who their finger into my sausage roll to check whether the says that the difference between his products and one they are selling me is cool enough not to charge supermarket foods is the quality, which my hon. Friend VAT on or still too hot. has already mentioned? Mr Grodzinski’s concern is that There is a practical issue of how the shops will know customers will decide that they would rather buy cold day to day that the products sat cooling have cooled food and that that will mean that they are buying food long enough for me to get a 20% discount or have not that is less than fresh, compared with when it first cooled, so the customer has to pay VAT. I suspect that comes out of the oven. such shops will put VAT on everything and put the prices up by 20%, and they will get a nice windfall for Nigel Mills: Absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend for the bits that they can convince the Revenue are not the intervention. The last thing that we want to do is to VAT-able. In practice, they will not want to charge encourage people to buy horrible cheap food with only separate prices depending on whether someone buys a 83WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 84WH product marginally above or below the ambient temperature. it. That is the worst situation—innocents caught in the That would be an unfeasible and rather strange situation crossfire. Some people have pushed the whole system for everyone to get into. too far. We all know that thirty years ago, Lord Lawson tried Dan Rogerson: With his expertise on the intricacies of to exempt bakeries that produced freshly baked goods. tax law, the hon. Gentleman makes good points. I We have a picture of bakers putting things in ovens at suspect that the windfall he mentions will be offset by 5 o’clock in the morning and customers queuing to buy any decline in trade due to the 20% increase in the cost hot bread, and that clearly should not be VATable. That of the product, set against cold products such as sandwiches. is not really what happens in most high street bakeries, where the goods are baked in a central bakery and Nigel Mills: I suspect that that is probably right. This appear in the shop early in the morning. It is unlikely will put people off buying some products entirely. I was that I would get hot bread, unless I was in the shop trying to say that I suspect that the customer will end up nearest to the central bakery very early in the morning. with a 20% price rise on all products and it will be down We need to get away from that quaint image that to the baker to match that loss of sale with the income probably applies only to a factory outlet bakery of the that they get to keep on non-VATable stuff. type that Luke Evans has. I do not think that most of the baked products I buy are hot, except for those that The Government need to produce coherent, are carefully baked on site, and they tend to be the understandable and enforceable rules. The suggestion products that the customer wants to have a chance to that a product would definitely be VATable if any effort eat hot. That is the line we need to work around. was made to keep it warm, by putting it in a heat-retaining What exactly are we concerned about? What mischief bag, under a hot lamp or on a heated rack, after it had are we trying to fix? What are we trying to protect? The been baked would lead to an understandable and clear proposals the Government are consulting on will not situation. I am not sure that it would tackle all the get them to where we all want them to be and will need mischief that the Government seek to tackle, which is some careful revision. why it would be helpful to understand exactly what problem they want to solve. It would not stop something that looks a lot like a takeaway pretending to be a 10.37 am bakery, which I suspect is something that they would Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- like to deal with. op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Scott. I thank the hon. Member for St Austell and Ian Swales: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s tax Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) for securing the debate. It knowledge, from which we are benefiting on the Finance was intended to take place prior to Prorogation and I Bill Committee. Does he agree that there is an EU law am glad that it was rescheduled for this morning. that requires changes in taxation to be clear and precise? We have had an extremely interesting debate, with From his knowledge, does he recognise that the Government some very intelligent and well thought through contributions could be challenged under EU law due to the complexity and suggestions on which the Government can act. A of the potential change? thing that struck me on this virtual tour of the UK—via train stations, football clubs and various forms of hot Nigel Mills: I spent many years in practice looking at snack—is how much unites, rather than divides, the areas where UK tax law could be challenged under EU different parts of the United Kingdom. In this instance, law. As the years went on, the European Courts became most of us, at least, are united in support of the a little more sensibly in favour of the tax authorities industries based in our communities. In this instance, rather than the taxpayer, so I never like to predict what the bad guys—to quote a term used by the hon. Member a challenge under EU law could achieve. He makes a for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills)—are the Government, fair point; as taxpayers, we are entitled to expect clear but bad guys always have the opportunity to redeem tax law that can be sensibly enforced. themselves. I am sure that as we go through the Finance Can the Minister think of other ways to tackle the Bill, the Government will look at the suggestions made mischief he wants to tackle without putting staff in today and try to do so. every high street in a situation where they have to finger I want to cover a few points made by hon. Members. all the products they sell? I am not suggesting that they In his opening speech, the hon. Member for St Austell will literally do that; they will have to have some kind of and Newquay highlighted the real issues about the technical probe or something. ambient temperature test and the potential problems in Could the Minister find a way to exempt businesses identifying what an ambient temperature is in different in which the sale of hot baked products accounts for no parts of the country. As those of us in the northern more than half their turnover? Clearly they are not in parts of the country know, we have yet to see any form the business of selling hot food, but are trying to sell of spring, never mind summer. Not only do we have cakes and bread, so such products are but a small part geographical variations, but we could have different of their trade. That suggestion will not fix the problem ambient temperatures on different days of the week. for my hon. Friends from Cornwall, who are looking at How will the Government devise the system? Will businesses based entirely on pasties, but it would take people come round using thermometers, as the hon. away the worst position for high street shops, for which Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) there are definitely unintended consequences. I fear that said, or probe with a finger, as the hon. Member for otherwise we will end up with a measure that will not Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) suggested, to see whether work, will clobber the innocent, and those who flout it hot snacks are above the ambient temperature? That will find a way to redesign their businesses to get out of seems to be nonsense. 85WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 86WH

[Cathy Jamieson] Stephen Gilbert: The hon. Lady is making a powerful case. Does she agree that one of the interesting things During our deliberations on the Finance Bill Committee about this debate is the fact that the scope of concerns yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw has widened rather than narrowed? I have mentioned (John Mann) gave a useful exposition on the difference mince pies, the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) between a Bakewell pudding and a Bakewell tart, which has mentioned Bakewell puddings and the hon. Lady is I confess is something that I had not previously understood. now talking about samosas. Muffins, doughnuts and That only goes to show that we learn something new other products have also been thrown into the mix. every day. Indeed, I learned today that the hon. Member for South East Cornwall and I have a shared heritage, Cathy Jamieson: Indeed. That highlights the powerful because I, too, am a baker’s granddaughter, although I case that, initially, the Treasury may have viewed the am not from Cornwall and could not begin to explain proposal as something that could be taken off the shelf, how to crimp a pasty. dusted down and presented as a way to correct some anomalies. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for The issues raised this morning are similar to those Rochdale has argued, it did not consider the detail and raised when we discussed the matter on the Floor of the the issue has become a problem. It has become a House. I sensed a sharp intake of breath when the hon. problem in relation not only to pasties—I am aware that Lady asked what hot food had to do with football. I am we cannot deviate too far from the issue under discussion— a football supporter and have supported my local team, but to the proposals for VAT on work on church buildings, Kilmarnock, since I was a child. I certainly did not on which there has been some movement. choose to do so on the basis that they were likely to win trophies, given that during my lifetime they have won Moreover, last night, multiple petitions were presented something on only three occasions: 1965, 1997 and this in relation to the caravan tax, and yesterday, I, along year, when they won the Scottish communities league with a number of other Members, met representatives cup. from the newly formed—it was formed in response to Government proposals—UK Specialist Sports Nutrition As a vegan, I confess that the delights of some of the Alliance, which has pointed out that some of its members’ pasties that have been mentioned have passed me by, products do not appear to fall under the categories for although, as I said during the debate on the Floor of which VAT was originally intended to be charged. the House, my son is an avid eater of the Greggs steak This series of Government proposals do not seem to bake and my husband often chooses, as a vegetarian, to have been properly thought through. Their impact on enjoy the Greggs cheese and onion pasty at lunchtime. I our high street has not been considered. That is important. do not necessarily partake of such delicacies, but when We want to see people shopping on their high streets my local team played at this year’s cup final, a local and spending what cash they have on local businesses in bakery in my constituency decided that I should not particular, and to ensure that our high streets continue lose out on the experience by not being able to eat a to thrive. When the British Retail Consortium, the Killie pie—the Kilmarnock football club pie, which is Association of Convenience Stores and the whole range reckoned to be the best in Scotland—and made me a of organisations that represent the baking industry, as vegan Killie pie. well as ordinary people, think that the Government have got it wrong, it is time for the Government to think I have still not received an answer to one of the again. questions that I asked during the debate in the main Chamber. If I buy two freshly baked Killie pies from my I will not speak for much longer, because I want to local Brownings the Bakers—should it choose to continue allow the Minister as much time as possible to respond the production of that wonderful vegan pie—and decide to the debate, but I want to return to the widening scope to eat one there and then and take the other away so of things affected by the proposals. The hon. Member that it will have cooled down later, would one be VATable for St Austell and Newquay suggested during his opening and the other not? That is an example of one of the speech that the Government were prepared to listen, dilemmas and anomalies that have been thrown up but I am disappointed to say that I have not found that again by a number of Members during this debate. to be the case. We have raised the issue on the Floor of Members have also identified that any system of taxation the House and have continued to raise it and a number and of collecting VAT needs to be understandable, of other issues in the Finance Bill Committee, but on enforceable and workable. As the hon. Member for St every occasion—no matter what the subject—when we Austell and Newquay pointed out during his opening have asked the Government to go away, make another speech, the proposals do not meet any of those tests. assessment, come back with a report and consider the implications, they have not done so. I want to address some other points that have been raised. The second time that I sensed a sharp intake of Sheryll Murray: Does the hon. Lady not accept that breath and felt a shiver run down my spine—“shiver” there is a consultation, so the Government are listening, seems to be the word of the week in relation to the and that we cannot expect them to respond until they economy—was when my hon. Friend the Member for have the results of that consultation? Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) suggested that samosas or pakoras could be taxed. Notwithstanding the popularity Cathy Jamieson: I understand the importance of of the Scottish bridie, there are parts of Scotland for consultation, but consulting on something that will which samosas or, indeed, pakoras, have become more happen after the fact—when the Government say that or less part of the staple diet. Thousands of constituents they are going to do something and then ask people would be extremely concerned if there was an additional about it—is not necessarily the best way to do it. Those tax. representatives of sports nutrition companies whom I 87WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 88WH met yesterday told me—the Minister will correct me if I announced to the House on 18 April, we extended the am wrong or have misunderstood—that no one from consultation period until last Friday in light of the that industry was consulted when the impact assessment responses received and I have, of course, been listening was done. to the contributions to this debate and will ensure that There are issues to address. I am trying not to make they are taken into account in the Chancellor’s decisions. this an attack on the Government, but I am disappointed Ensuring that VAT will apply to the sale of all hot at the lack of movement. I understand that consultations food—to the extent that it does not already do so—is are important and hope that the Government will listen one of a series of VAT measures announced in the and consider making some of the changes that have Budget designed to make the VAT system fairer to all been asked of them today. The torrid headlines that the traders, and to make it easier to administer and comply Government had to endure when their proposals were with. first announced should make them realise that the The current rules on the VATability of hot takeaway country wants them to do something and change their food have been made particularly complex and unfair plans. My favourite headline read: “Half-baked Tory by a patchwork of different legal decisions over the tax a mistake-and-bake”. It was indeed a mistake—let decades, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell us try to fix it. and Newquay pointed out. VAT has always applied to food consumed on the supplier’s premises, notably in 10.48 am restaurants and cafes, and was extended to hot takeaway The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David food in 1984. The definition of hot takeaway food in the Gauke): It is a great pleasure to serve under your 1984 legislation is that the food chairmanship, Mr Scott. I congratulate my hon. Friend “has been heated for the purposes of enabling it to be consumed the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen at a temperature above ambient air temperature”— Gilbert) on securing this debate and on his thoughtful and that it and constructive speech. I thank all those who have “is above that temperature at the time it is provided to the contributed to the debate, including my hon. Friends customer.” the Members for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) and There have been repeated efforts since the 1980s to chip for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), whom I away at this boundary. A number of businesses have congratulate in particular on her expertise on the matter. argued in litigation that, although the food they provide I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for to their customers is hot and is taken away, it should not Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) for providing his expertise be taxed as “hot takeaway food”, but it should instead on tax, rather than on pasties. I also thank the hon. be zero rated. Members for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) and for Bassetlaw (John Mann), who gave a characteristically passionate Some have argued that, in heating the food, their and, at times, entertaining speech. intention was not to provide their customers with food Since the Budget, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to be eaten hot, but to follow rules of hygiene, to finish has been running a consultation on addressing a range the cooking process, to provide evidence of freshness, to of VAT anomalies, including the treatment of hot takeaway create an aroma, or to improve appearance, crispiness food. I am well aware that the changes that we have or texture of the product. Such arguments have not announced to the VAT treatment of hot food have always been successful, but where they have been, they attracted a considerable amount of attention. Indeed, I have allowed some businesses to secure VAT-free treatment have had meetings with my hon. Friends the Members for a range of hot food products such as hot rotisserie for St Austell and Newquay and for Camborne and chickens, meat pies, pasties and panini. However, other Redruth (George Eustice) and representatives of the businesses have continued to apply VAT to the similar Cornish pasty industry. hot food products that they sell. They have accepted, or the courts have ruled, that their intention is to heat their Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): The definition food products so that their customer can eat them hot. of hot food has caused much uncertainty, not least for Under the current rules, the VAT rate applied to hot Auntie Anne’s pretzel company in my constituency, takeaway food depends on the particular supplier’s purpose which I visited last week. The company has put on hold in heating the food. quite big expansion plans because having to charge In reference to a point made by my hon. Friend the VAT would put it in competition with a whole new set Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), a small of fast food outlets. The pretzels are baked on the independent fish and chip shop will have to charge 20% premises from a dough mixture, and the company needs VAT on its hot chicken, but a major supermarket will some clear guidance from Her Majesty’s Treasury that argue that its rotisserie chickens are zero rated. One it will not be liable to VAT so that it can get on with its baker who keeps his sausage rolls in a hot cabinet to growth plans and with creating jobs in the local area. provide his customers with a hot snack will charge tax, but the baker next door who also keeps them hot and Mr Gauke: I am grateful for that intervention. There argues that this is to maintain an appealing aroma will is a carve-out in this measure that relates to bread. My claim that they are zero rated. hon. Friend refers to pretzels made from a dough The current situation is unfair, and it is right that we mixture. HMRC will provide guidance on the definition seek to change it. There was some agreement on that of bread, so that matter will be covered once final point from at least some hon. Members. That is why we decisions have been made. are introducing new rules to ensure a level playing field. Before I turn to some of the arguments against the We have proposed the removal of the subjective element proposal, I should like to step back and remind hon. of the zero-rate definition, which has led to these anomalies, Members of why we have proposed this change. As I to provide more consistency in the taxation of hot food. 89WH Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)23 MAY 2012 Hot Takeaway Food (VAT) 90WH

[Mr Gauke] Minister tell us what would happen if the outside temperature is freezing or below freezing? That is the As I mentioned earlier, we are adding a simple carve-out sort of issue that our constituents are raising with us. that bread, irrespective of its temperature, will not be liable. Mr Gauke: I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall not start taxing food as hot if the outside temperature is Simon Danczuk rose— 40°C and the item is warm only because of the air around it, or hot because the temperature is freezing. Mr Gauke: I will give way, but I am keen to proceed Existing simplification schemes are already available quickly. that allow businesses to calculate their VAT liability by reference to a fixed percentage of their turnover, without requiring staff to consider the temperature of every Simon Danczuk: Will the Minister address the point product sold. Pragmatic approaches to apportionment that I made about the samosa tax issue? are, and have always been, a common feature in VAT. Mr Gauke: On that point, our proposal is that if food Let me turn now to the proposal by my hon. Friend is sold at above ambient temperature, it is standard-rated, the Member for St Austell and Newquay. I am aware of which is the same as takeaway food from Indian restaurants. the strength of opinion on this question, and I hear the proposal that he has made. The consultation was genuine. We have heard a number of arguments about why As it is also complicated, it would be premature of me businesses will find it difficult to apply the test on to make a knee-jerk response to it within a few days of ambient temperature. The test to determine whether it closing. However, we are considering his and other takeaway food is hot is not new; it has been in place constructive suggestions closely, and we are aware of since 1984. However, I accept that, in many cases, the difficulties in operating a test based on ambient suppliers do not need to ask themselves that question temperatures. As I said earlier, such a test has been in because they accept that their takeaway food is meant place since 1984, and it is no more than a legal definition to be eaten hot and thus they pay tax even if, on a of “hot food”. At present, it is rarely applied because handful of occasions, the food may not actually be hot. businesses that accept that their food is heated in order They may make use of one of the other arguments to be eaten hot accept that it is taxable hot food, and about the purpose of the heating, and thus do not pay those that argue that their food is heated for other tax, even if the food is hot. However, the test is reasonably reasons can escape VAT, even if the food is hot. straightforward and will be policed in a pragmatic way. There are problems with my hon. Friend’s proposal, Some hot food will have been kept hot or provided which potentially risks bringing hot pizza into the zero straight from the oven and will obviously be standard-rated rate—I suspect that is an unintended consequence. However, under our proposals. In most other cases, people know it is one of many suggestions that we are considering, when something is hotter than the air around it. A and we hope to be able to respond in the near future. leading high street bakery chain, which has campaigned It has been suggested that this change could lead to against these changes, said on its own website that business closures in the baking industry, and would customers who want a hot sausage roll should test disproportionately affect businesses in Cornwall, and whether the sausage roll is hot enough by feeling the that it should be delayed until there is stronger growth. temperature through the bag. However, it does ensure that businesses of all sizes and It is important to inject some common sense into this in all locations receive the same tax treatment for similar potentially trivial debate about food that at one moment products and that that preferential tax treatment does is hot and at another is at ambient air temperature. We not go to those with the most ingenious arguments, or are not expecting staff to take detailed temperature the best lawyers, to support zero rating. readings every time they sell a pasty. HMRC will take a I accept that all taxes have an effect on growth and pragmatic approach and provide businesses with guidance, jobs, but VAT as a whole is less damaging than many taking into account businesses’ responses on how to other taxes. I hope that my comments today have provided implement the change. more information on why the Government have made this proposal. The changes are designed to introduce Dan Rogerson: I am grateful to the Minister for new sensible objective tests that are less open to abuse giving way as he sets out the Government’s thinking and provide a level playing field for all businesses supplying behind this matter. I hope there is room, following the their customers with hot food. I also hope that I have consultation, for that thinking to develop. On the specific explained that we have undertaken a genuine consultation point of temperature, we have heard that many pasties and will respond as soon as possible, and that we are are sold outside or through hatches and so on. Will the listening closely to all the arguments. 91WH 23 MAY 2012 Pancreatic Cancer 92WH

Pancreatic Cancer Although symptoms may have manifested themselves for several months, many people do not visit their 11 am doctor until it is too late and the disease is quite advanced. In fact, 50% of pancreatic cancer patients are Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): diagnosed only as a result of an emergency hospital Thank you, Mr Scott, for calling me to speak; it is a admission and more than 80% of pancreatic cancer pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I am pleased patients are diagnosed only once the tumour is inoperable. to have secured this debate, as it is on a subject of huge Those are startling, sobering and depressing statistics. importance to thousands of families across the UK. It Let me refer again to my personal situation, in which is also a subject that is close to my heart. the pancreatic cancer was diagnosed only after a series This debate was originally scheduled for the last week of what were just stomach aches, and tests were carried of the previous parliamentary Session. However, due to out only after those stomach aches and after a number Prorogation it was cancelled, so I am particularly lucky of visits to the GP. to have been drawn again so quickly. Whether that was For the record, the symptoms of pancreatic cancer because of pure luck or the Speaker’s Panel taking pity can be quite vague and varied. They can include weight on me, I do not know, but I am grateful none the less. loss and pain in the stomach, which both appeared in As it happens, the timing for this rescheduled debate my particular experience of the disease, as well as back could not have been better, because last week we established pain and jaundice. But if someone does not have any the all-party group on pancreatic cancer. It is chaired by knowledge of the disease—neither I nor my partner Lord Patel, the Cross-Bench peer, who has huge experience had any such knowledge at the time—how would they of the medical profession, and it has a most fantastic realise that, because one is feeling tired every day there treasurer in the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic is something particularly wrong, until the stomach aches Dakin), who is here in Westminster Hall today. The develop? Even then, in my personal experience the all-party group aims to work with Pancreatic Cancer stomach aches were not significant in terms of pain. We UK, Cancer Research UK and others to increase awareness had no awareness that that feeling of tiredness was of pancreatic cancer, and to help campaign for better anything to do with cancer. care and treatments, which will lead to improved outcomes. We need to ensure that doctors are making the right The simple fact is that we need better care and diagnosis. Nearly 30% of pancreatic cancer patients will treatment. The number of people diagnosed with pancreatic have visited their GP five times or more before being cancer is rising. In 2008, around 8,100 cases were properly diagnosed; that was true in my situation. So we diagnosed—about 22 cases a day. Compared with other need to make sure that GPs are provided with the types of cancer, those numbers are quite low. However, proper tools and training to recognise the symptoms of there is a very poor prognosis in pancreatic cancer pancreatic cancer. Moreover, we need to ensure that cases, with only 3% of patients surviving for five years GPs are able to refer their patients swiftly to hospitals or more. In my own particular case, my partner survived for further tests when they suspect a case of pancreatic for only seven weeks after being diagnosed. cancer. Despite advances in technology and improvements in As part of that process, Pancreatic Cancer UK is survival rates for other forms of cancer, that figure of holding an early diagnosis workshop next month. Hopefully, 3% has remained unchanged for 40 years, which is quite that workshop will help to come up with more concrete incredible. There are also wide regional variations in actions that could be taken. I understand that the UK survival rates, the so-called and much cited problem Minister’s colleague, the hon. Member for Sutton and of “the postcode lottery”. On a national level, that Cheam (Paul Burstow), has agreed to support that survival rate—only 3% of pancreatic cancer patients in workshop, which is an encouraging sign. the UK survive for five years or more—is the worst in the developed world. To put it into context, it is half the Put simply, late diagnosis means that the few treatments survival rate of the US, Australia or Canada. Those available might not be an option. So it is absolutely countries’ survival rates are obviously still low, but they imperative that we improve awareness and diagnosis. are much better than the British survival rate. Let me turn to treatments. The uncomfortable fact is There have also been reports from people with pancreatic that few options for curative treatments exist. One of cancer that the care provided in the UK has fallen the reasons why survival rates for pancreatic cancer are below expectations. The 2010 NHS national cancer so low, compared with those for other types of cancer, is patient experience survey found that pancreatic cancer that pancreatic tumours are relatively highly resistant to patients fared significantly worse than patients diagnosed chemotherapy. Having said that, I note that Cancer with other cancers. That needs to change. Some things Research UK has said that it believes there is some kind will be easier to rectify than others. For instance, improving of breakthrough in terms of a new class of drugs, the patient experience seems an obvious and relatively details of which it announced in April; that new class of easy thing. However, we can and should work on improving drugs looks quite promising in terms of being able to awareness, diagnosis, treatment, care and—ultimately improve treatment. and most importantly—the survival rate across the board. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the One can look at the impact of the advertising to hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on a very increase awareness of bowel cancer, which is a difficult important issue; every one of us will have constituents cancer to deal with. We are looking to achieve a similar who will be affected by it. Does he share my concern—and, impact in terms of increasing awareness of pancreatic I suspect, the concern of many people—that pancreatic cancer. Increasing awareness is vital, because too often cancer is the fifth most deadly cancer in the whole of pancreatic cancer is diagnosed at far too late a stage. the UK and yet only about 1% of cancer research is on 93WH Pancreatic Cancer23 MAY 2012 Pancreatic Cancer 94WH

[Jim Shannon] Eric Ollerenshaw: I thank my colleague from the all-party group for his intervention. Like the hon. Member pancreatic cancer? Also, does he feel that it is now time for Strangford (Jim Shannon), he seems to have a copy for the Minister to work with all the regional bodies of my speech—my next paragraph is about research across the UK—the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh funding. We are all in this together, as it were, particularly Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly—to on this one. introduce a UK-wide strategy to reduce deaths from pancreatic cancer? The point that the hon. Member for Scunthorpe makes so well is that more research into the cancer is absolutely imperative, to find new and more effective Eric Ollerenshaw: The hon. Gentleman can obviously treatments. Pancreatic cancer receives just 1% of cancer read minds, because that point about research is in my research funds, despite being the cause of 5% of cancer- next paragraph. His other suggestion about a UK-wide related deaths. More research funding will help us discover strategy is a really interesting and positive one, because why this type of cancer is so resistant to treatments that pancreatic cancer obviously does not respect any boundaries, can cure other forms of the disease, and identifying or any devolved Government or national Government. early markers will help to establish screening programmes So he makes an interesting point, which the all-party and lead to earlier diagnosis. group can perhaps consider. In addition to funding new and expanded research Effective cures for pancreatic cancer remain stubbornly programmes, it is key that we increase patients’ take-up elusive, but we need to try to find ways to prolong of clinical trials. According to the National Cancer patients’ lives and to ease their pain and suffering, while Research Network, fewer pancreatic cancer patients always remembering that, with cancer, it is not only the enrol in trials than people with other cancers. I do not patient who is affected but the people around them, know whether that is due to the poor survival rates, but including their family. Cancer affects not just one person; it is fundamental that we encourage more of those its effect spreads to other people. I had not entered the patients to take part if we are to get the research we cancer world before my own personal experience—I call need. it a separate world, because it is like entering a separate universe that has never been experienced before. Patients’ Finally on the subject of treatment, we desperately loved ones also experience suffering. need to find out why there are such regional variations in survival rates. I am sure that the hon. Member for Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): First, I congratulate Scunthorpe will agree that the amazing thing at last my hon. Friend on securing this very important debate. week’s inaugural meeting of the all-party group was the I know how personal this issue is to him. Linked in with personal evidence from three survivors from different the point that he has just made, does he agree that this parts of the country. issue shows why it is so important that we have a strong One survivor in particular had had to push doctors hospice movement in our country? That is because and fight to get the treatment, and he ended up—I hospices have the expertise and are able to treat conditions think he came from the midlands—in Reading or such as pancreatic cancer with a holistic approach, so somewhere in the south. That was due to his own that it is not only the patient but the extended family perseverance, however, and it should not be like that, and loved ones who receive support—support that they because once there has been a diagnosis of cancer need, too. everything goes to pieces for the family and friends. That man’s will was the most powerful thing about that Eric Ollerenshaw: My hon. Friend represents Pudsey, meeting; he is living evidence that something can be a Yorkshire constituency, so he says it like it is. I will go done. We need to ensure that GPs learn from successful on to say something about hospices; what he said about parts of the country and that effective procedures are them is true. In a sense, for a lot of families cancer is copied wherever possible. That will need top-down almost like the end. With pancreatic cancer, proper leadership, and I hope that the Minister will be able to treatment is vital and nobody should underestimate the comment on how that matter is being addressed. work of the hospice movement. As I say, I will go on to Treatments, including surgery, for pancreatic cancer say a couple of things about hospices. are few and difficult, but that is no excuse for poor patient experiences. The 2010 NHS national cancer Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate the patient experience survey found that pancreatic cancer hon. Gentleman on securing this very important and patients fared significantly worse than those diagnosed timely debate. I also pay tribute to his passion on this with other cancers. For instance, nearly a third of pancreatic issue and to the personal experience that he brings to cancer patients said that they felt their diagnosis should this debate; he brings real understanding. In addition, I have been communicated more sensitively, compared pay tribute to Pancreatic Cancer UK, which is doing with 18% of all survey respondents. The survey also excellent work, and to campaigners such as Maggie showed that 41% of pancreatic cancer patients were not Watts, a campaigner in my constituency. She has direct given information about their cancer when it was diagnosed, experience of this issue and is driving an e-petition compared with 27% of all respondents. forward on it. Although I was given a great deal of support, for Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that we need which I pay tribute to Homerton hospital in Hackney—I more support from the Government in the area of will come on to talk about cancer specialist nurses; we research into cures? Only 1.6% of research funding is had a brilliant one—when coming back from surgery to spent on pancreatic cancer, and the Government can relieve some fluid, my partner, who was slightly drugged move things forward here. up from the operation, asked the doctor, “How is it?” 95WH Pancreatic Cancer23 MAY 2012 Pancreatic Cancer 96WH and he simply turned around and said, “It’s terminal.” this particularly nasty and difficult disease and who That was the first time that either I or my partner had have recognised the need to set up such a group. I know been informed. that my ministerial colleague, the hon. Member for I do not know why doctors find it harder to explain Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), will watch the work things to pancreatic cancer patients than to other cancer of the group with interest, and no doubt the Department patients—perhaps it is because of the low survival of Health will await with eagerness any reports or rates—but although effective treatment might not always investigations that the group pursues in the coming be possible, we need to do more to improve the patient years of this Parliament. All contributions, whether experience and, as I keep saying, that of family and from the voluntary or charitable sectors, or from within friends. Other than by way of better information being the Department or the NHS, or at a parliamentary more sympathetically delivered at the point of diagnosis, level, are important, because, as my hon. Friend has that can be done through the support and care provided said, this is a very difficult disease which, sadly, can be by clinical nurse specialists. We were lucky, because extremely swift-moving. Far more needs to be known there was a cancer specialist nurse in the hospital, who about it, so that one can address the alleviation of the guided us through what was going on. The national symptoms and the longer-term management of the cancer patient experience survey, which is proving to be condition—if that is possible. Sadly, as my hon. Friend a fundamental part of my speech, also found a link said, during the course of his experiences, time regrettably between positive patient experiences and access to a was not on his side. clinical nurse specialist. Is the Minister able to comment We in the Department recognise that we need to do on that? more to bring cancer survival rates up to the standards I should state that although there can clearly be of the very best. The cancer outcomes strategy sets out improvements in patient care, with such low survival our ambition to halve the gap between England’s survival rates much of the care can end up, as my hon. Friend rates and those of the best in Europe, saving an additional the Member for Pudsey has said, being provided in 5,000 lives every year by 2014-15. To achieve that, we hospices. My experience of St Joseph’s hospice in Hackney must tackle common and less common cancers. We was for only two days and two nights, but it was know that later diagnosis is a major reason for variation unbelievable, and I pay tribute to everything in the in cancer survival outcomes, and our strategy prioritises hospice movement. The treatment is holistic, with the early diagnosis. To assist the NHS in achieving earlier family and everyone involved. cancer diagnosis, the strategy is supported by more than £450 million over four years. That funding is part of As some kind of conclusion, I want to place on the more than £750 million in additional funding for cancer record how grateful those of us who have personal over the spending review period. experience of this dreadful disease are to charities such as Pancreatic Cancer UK and Cancer Research UK, To improve awareness of rarer cancers such as pancreatic which drive the case for change and generally help to cancer, we are considering piloting a symptom-based give people hope that the situation will improve in the awareness campaign covering multiple cancers. Feedback future. Also, we should all pay tribute to the doctors from rarer cancer charities suggests that as a possible and nurses who provide care and treatment for sufferers, approach to improving public awareness. We are considering especially in their last days, and I again praise the the results of discussions in order to find the best way hospice movements. Their efforts and attitude help to forward. I hope that that addresses one of the important make an extremely difficult time for patients and their points raised by my hon. Friend. friends and family a little more bearable—if it is bearable. We also need GPs to recognise symptoms and, where With my personal situation, the biggest thing I would appropriate, refer people urgently for specialist care, as underline is my description of going along in life and my hon. Friend said. A range of support, such as assuming that everything is okay and then entering this referral guidelines from the National Institute for Health kind of cancer world, with cancer specialists. The support and Clinical Excellence, is available to help GPs assess from other people who are going through the same when it is appropriate to refer patients for investigation thing as well is unbelievable, but in 2012, with an NHS of suspected cancer. However, we can do more to support of which we are all so proud, why is there such variation, GPs. Cancer Research UK, Macmillan Cancer Support and why has there been no improvement over 40 years and the National Cancer Action Team are working in dealing with this virulent form of cancer? I would be together to develop a broader GP engagement programme grateful to hear what the Minister has to say. for the coming years, including by working with the senior leadership of the Royal College of General Practitioners on a strategic initiative. 11.17 am I commend the pancreatic cancer charities for the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon work that they do to support patients, raise awareness, Burns): It is a first, and a pleasure, for me to serve under promote research and identify how we can improve the your chairmanship, Mr Scott. I congratulate my hon. survival rates of people affected by pancreatic cancer. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric They do a tremendous amount of excellent work, and Ollerenshaw) on securing this important debate. It was we welcome that work and congratulate them on their very moving to listen to his speech. His real knowledge commitment. We are determined to work with them and personal experience made it more powerful than and others to help minimise the problems highlighted many of the speeches one hears in this House. by my hon. Friend. I congratulate my hon. Friend on his appointment as As I said, we must tackle rarer or less common secretary of the newly formed all-party group on pancreatic cancers alongside common cancers. That is why our cancer, and congratulate all the other Members and cancer outcomes strategy set out a commitment to work people from outside this House who have an interest in with rarer cancer charities. Officials have held meetings 97WH Pancreatic Cancer23 MAY 2012 Pancreatic Cancer 98WH

[Mr Simon Burns] will support pancreatic cancer research. It forms part of this Government’s total yearly spend of more than with numerous rarer cancer charities, including Pancreatic £200 million on cancer research. Patients and clinicians Cancer UK and Pancreatic Cancer Action, to assess can find out about trials in all therapeutic areas, including what more can be done to encourage appropriate referrals pancreatic cancer, on the UK clinical trials gateway to secondary care for early diagnosis of rarer cancers. website. The discussions will inform the Department’s future On the important issue of clinical audits, I reassure work in the area. my hon. Friend that we are committed to extending Pancreatic Cancer UK, as my hon. Friend said, is national clinical audits across a much wider range of hosting an early diagnosis workshop in June, which will conditions and treatments, and to developing their role be attended by national cancer director Sir Mike Richards as a driver of quality improvement. Following a call in and my ministerial colleague the hon. Member for early 2011 for new topics for national clinical audit, the Sutton and Cheam. The workshop will examine practical National Advisory Group on Clinical Audit and Enquiries steps that can be taken to help GPs and secondary care provided advice to the Department on new topics to be health professionals diagnose pancreatic cancer at the included as part of the national clinical audit and earliest possible stage. We look forward to receiving the patient outcomes programme. A proposal for a pancreatic workshop’s findings. As my hon. Friend rightly said, cancer audit was considered as part of that process, but the earlier the diagnosis, the better it is for addressing the advisory group’s view was that elements of the individual patients’ problems. That is the nub of the proposal should be taken forward as part of the existing challenge facing us all. bowel cancer audit when it is retendered during 2012. Pancreatic Cancer UK’s survival study 2011 confirms We will ensure that that option is considered when the what we already know about regional variations in Department reviews the existing arrangements for the survival rates. “Improving outcomes: a strategy for cancer” bowel cancer audit later this year. makes it clear that reducing variations and tackling I reassure my hon. Friend, other hon. Members and health inequalities is essential if we are to improve the all-party group that, while the challenge of preventing outcomes and save 5,000 additional lives by 2014-15. To cancers and improving diagnosis and treatment is huge, support the national health service in tackling regional we are committed to it. Our cancer outcomes strategy, variations in cancer survival rates, we are supplying published in January 2011, set out how we will deliver data to providers and commissioners that will allow health-care outcomes as good as anywhere in the world. them to benchmark their services and outcomes against That is our commitment. The first annual round of the one another and identify where improvements need to strategy, published in December 2011, highlighted our be made, so that they can move forward on making the priorities for this year, which include providing benchmark improvements that we all desperately require and seek. data to the NHS as a lever for improvement. In December 2010, we published the report of the Of equal importance is the commitment of the many 2010 cancer patient experience survey, which recorded charities and campaigning organisations that provide the views of more than 67,000 cancer patients treated vital support to thousands of people with cancer and—as across 158 trusts. The results enabled providers to assess importantly, but sometimes forgotten—to their families. the experience of cancer patients locally, benchmark However terrible it is to suffer from cancer, we must not performance against other trusts and identify areas for forget the knock-on effects that it has on the emotions improvement. It also showed that cancer patients supported of families and friends, who must do so much to support by a clinical nurse specialist had a better experience of patients through difficult health conditions at a time care overall. My hon. Friend mentioned the importance when they themselves are in a fragile emotional position. of ensuring sufficient numbers of clinical nurse specialists. They also advocate on behalf of family members and We expect the NHS to consider that in developing friends suffering from cancer. That is a crucial role, and policies to improve patient experience. Field work for one that we must not forget. the 2011 survey is now complete. We will look closely at The contribution of the charitable and voluntary the results when they are published in summer to see sector to our recent cancer strategy has been invaluable, where improvements have been made and more are and I trust that we can continue to count on its help in needed. delivering our aims and objectives. I thank my hon. The Department is fully committed to clinical and Friend for bringing up this important issue. As he made applied research into treatment and cures for cancer. clear in his remarks, because relatively few people suffer The percentage of cancer patients in trials in England is from pancreatic cancer, it may not always get as much now more than twice that in the United States. The UK attention as more common cancers such as breast cancer now has the world’s highest national rate per capita of and lung cancer. I am grateful to have had the opportunity cancer trial participation. I hope that that reassures my to outline the Government’s position and assure him hon. Friend. that we continue to work towards achievement. In August 2011, the Government announced £6.5 million in funding for the Liverpool biomedical research unit 11.30 am on gastrointestinal disease. About half that investment Sitting suspended. 99WH 23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 100WH

Dangerous Dogs I pay tribute to a number of animal charities and organisations that work tirelessly to raise awareness of the many problems with our current dangerous dog [NADINE DORRIES in the Chair] legislation. Groups such as Battersea dogs home, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, 2.30 pm the Dogs Trust, the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health and the Communication Workers Union are all Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): This debate was long-standing campaigners on the issue. Each in its own born out of an incident that probably lasted all of way does a tremendous amount of work promoting 30 seconds, but sadly such things happen every single responsible dog ownership. In my constituency earlier day. In November 2010, I was a keen, young MP and this year, the Dogs Trust ran a three-day centre in Risca decided to go campaigning with my campaign team. I and provided free health checks. It also offered to walked down the street with a load of leaflets in my neuter and chip dogs for just £10. The event was a hand, went to a house and did the one thing that people major success and about 70 dogs were booked in to be are told not to do when they first join a political party neutered and chipped. Across Wales, the Dogs Trust and learn how to leaflet—I put my hand right through has neutered more than 13,000 dogs and microchipped the letterbox. Without a word of warning, I felt something 46,000. Such work makes a real difference to responsible clamp on my hand and a low growl made me realise that dog ownership. Speaking to charities and groups on the a dog had me. When I pulled my finger out, I noticed front line makes me realise how our dangerous dog what I thought was a small cut, but it developed into a legislation is just not good enough. deep gash that spurted blood out everywhere. I had to go to hospital and the treatment my finger received Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): I congratulate the resulted in five stitches and a one-inch scar on my hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. A middle finger, which I will not raise, in case I am called local newspaper of mine, News Shopper, is running a to order by you, Ms Dorries. I had become one of the shop a dog campaign, which seeks to highlight the fact more than 100 people a week in the UK who suffer that we should primarily be targeting irresponsible owners, injuries so severe from a dog attack that they are admitted rather than the dogs themselves. Will the hon. Gentleman to hospital. comment on that? Of course, I was one of the lucky ones: my treatment amounted to a trip to A and E and a course of antibiotics. Chris Evans: That is the main thrust of my debate. However, many people are not so fortunate. Sadly, some This is not a dog-only issue; often it is a social and well-publicised cases have seen people severely injured anti-social issue. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to or maimed by a dog. Having been bitten through a carry on with my speech, I will develop that point letterbox, I have sympathy with the 10,000 postal workers further. who have been injured by domestic dogs. The most A couple of months ago, I visited Battersea dogs upsetting statistic is that seven guide dogs a month are home and as I wandered around and heard about the attacked by out-of-control dogs. problems it faced re-housing stray dogs that have been abandoned and often abused by their owners, I realised Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): I thank my that our legislation for dangerous dogs must change. It hon. Friend for giving way so early on in his speech. I made me realise that one of the biggest failures of the have a partially sighted constituent whose guide dog Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 is that it is breed-specific. was attacked and who is now afraid to set foot outside Despite banning types of dogs such as the pit bull, the his door. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is completely law has not reduced their numbers, which have exploded. unacceptable that blind and partially sighted people The Act simply taught us that demonising certain breeds should feel like prisoners in their own homes? Does he makes them more attractive to the wrong types of not agree that the Government should heed Guide people, who will not think twice about flouting the law. Dogs’ words about microchipping as soon as possible? The previous Labour Government’s 2010 consultation revealed that 78% of people wanted new legislation to Chris Evans: I fully agree with my hon. Friend. I did a promote the responsible ownership of dogs. Shockingly, lot of research before this debate and one of the most it has taken two years for the current Government to harrowing things I found was a video on The Sun respond and publish their own plans. In that time, I was website, in which some sort of a dog had hold of a guide one of the 5,000 patients admitted to hospital for dog and the owner was kicking him to try to get him off. injuries caused by dog attacks in England and Wales. It was harrowing to see the guide dog’s reins. I hope that my hon. Friend’s constituent will have the confidence to Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I go out in future and enjoy life once again. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important I want to make it clear from the very beginning that debate. He says that it has taken us two years to produce I am pro-dogs. I would even say that I am a dog lover. I new measures to tackle this scourge, but, while it is true have been lucky enough to own dogs all my life. Anyone that the previous Government introduced a consultation who has owned a dog will say how much they enrich right at the end of their time in office, nothing was done life. I have great memories of a border collie cross called in the preceding 13 years, so it is ungenerous to suggest Pep that I grew up with. He lived until he was 19 and we that we have taken too long. all cried when he passed away. Moreover, when I arrive home from this place, I know that my dog will always be Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con) rose— there, wagging his tail and happy that I am home—at least somebody at my house is happy when I arrive Chris Evans: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like home. to respond to that point. 101WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 102WH

Mr Gray: The hon. Gentleman has made an interesting needed to keep him under control around livestock. point about the fact that the Act has not worked because That is very often overlooked. We often think of dangerous irresponsible people have ignored it, and that those who dogs as a city or urban problem, but it is also a serious continue to breed dangerous dogs are outside the law. problem in rural areas. I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Why would action by the Government have any effect On my visit to Battersea dogs home, I learned that whatever on those thugs and criminals who are ignoring some 72% of the dogs that it looks after do not have a the law? microchip, which makes it impossible to track down the owner. The Government have recently announced plans Chris Evans: I welcome the Government’s guidelines to combat that and have proposed the compulsory to crack down on such people, who are completely microchipping of puppies. However, in Battersea dogs outside the law. To respond to the hon. Member for home, I saw hundreds of dogs without a microchip who Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), yes, we had had been abandoned by their owners. It is no good the 13 years, but two years is too long and the Government Government microchipping puppies when stray dogs have a responsibility. We are where we are. are roaming the streets abandoned and neglected, with On average, 12 postal workers are attacked by dogs no hope of being reunited with their owners. every day. Many do not return to their job because of Battersea Dogs Home tells me that only 20% of the the physical and psychological effects of the attack. 6,000 dogs it homed in 2011 were microchipped and Even Members of this House have been victims of dog that one third even had the wrong details. Therefore, attacks. When I came in with a big bandage on my when the owner went along and asked for their dog, hand, a number of people told me that they knew of very often they had been rehomed. That demonstrates party workers who had been chased or bitten by dogs. the scale of the problem. Microchipping is a start, Everybody I spoke to had some experience on the which I welcome, but unfortunately that is all it is. It will doorstep of being chased by dogs, although I do not take years to affect all dogs and will make little difference know whether the dogs were Tory or Labour. A recent to the thousands of strays already wandering our streets. RSPCA survey underlined that fact and found that more than half of MPs had been bitten or chased by dogs while delivering leaflets over the past five years, Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I had an while almost 80% of Members have seen one of their extraordinary case in my constituency that runs parallel constituency team bitten or chased. Perhaps it is to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I would like to unsurprising that, according to the same survey, more highlight the case and am fascinated to hear what he than half of MPs believe that the current dog legislation has to say about it. A mother, father and small girl were is ineffective. asked to a tea party at a private residence next door. They went and the child, who was aged five, offered To return to the point made by the hon. Member for something to a Scottish terrier who jumped over the Dartford (Gareth Johnson), we often talk about dangerous child’s hand, latched on to her face and tore half her dogs in the context of being bitten or chased, but the face off. The eyeball had to be surgically put back and cost of dangerous dogs cannot be underestimated. Last God knows what else, but because that happened in a year, police forces in England and Wales spent £3 million private house, apparently the law cannot intervene. kennelling dogs seized under the 1991 Act. My concern What does the hon. Gentleman feel can be done, if is that, after two years of waiting for worthwhile legislation, anything, in that sensitive area of the law? the Government’s proposals do not go far enough. Frankly, they are a missed opportunity and we must wonder how much of a priority tackling irresponsible Chris Evans: That is an absolutely harrowing case. I dog ownership really is. However, we have to be careful—it cannot think of anything worse happening. The hon. is no good blaming the dogs. In many cases it is often Gentleman says that the dog was a Scottish terrier. That not so much problem dogs, but problem owners. Although is why we need to look again at the dangerous dogs it is important that we enforce new, more effective legislation. We also need to ask a very important question legislation, it will only work if a number of steps are in relation to the complicated issues surrounding dogs. taken to influence owners and better educate the public. We have a problem there. A number of people buy dogs for guarding purposes. When they take out a burglar, that is good; but when they are attacking a child, that is Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I appreciate bad. We need to be very careful when framing such and support the hon. Gentleman’s comments on the legislation. need to control dogs and want to add another important reason for doing so. I have been a sheep farmer for most I hope that we can have a debate on that matter of my life and the impact of irresponsible dog owners because there is a grey area. On the one hand, if a has been terrifying. Thirty-five of my sheep were killed person walks in and trespasses on someone’s property, one night—they were turned over and torn apart. That the dog would be celebrated as a hero. On the other is a common occurrence. The hon. Gentleman is listing hand, the hon. Gentleman has mentioned an absolutely some of the many reasons to control dogs, and the tragic and terrible situation. I hope that the family is impact on the livestock industry is another one. returning to a semblance of order. I know that when I was bitten on the finger, I found it quite traumatic. I Chris Evans: I come from the south Wales valleys, was a bit nervous around other dogs. I cannot think of where I am surrounded by farms. I know a local farmer, anything worse. and the hon. Gentleman’s point is a massive issue. Dogs chasing sheep was always a feature of my life when I Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. Could you turn was growing up. The most important thing I was told around and address your comments to the Chair and to when I first had a dog when I was very young was that I Hansard please, Mr Evans. 103WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 104WH

Chris Evans: I am very sorry, Ms Dorries—please as far as to say that if he looked at Hampshire police forgive me. I was getting carried away in the moment dog unit’s entire dog stock, he would struggle to identify there. anything other than his dog and that it is very difficult indeed to tell the other 11 apart. Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): That is okay—it just makes it easier for Hansard. Chris Evans: I absolutely agree. That is exactly what I have experienced. When I walked around Battersea Chris Evans: As I said, the owners of dogs that are dogs home, I felt that if I had seen one Staffie, I had abandoned and demonised need to be held accountable. seen a thousand. To be honest, I could not tell the In Wales, the Welsh Assembly has taken the lead on the difference between them. microchipping of dogs and is currently consulting on Another element of responsible dog ownership not the compulsory microchipping of puppies and on whether tackled in the Government’s proposals is the rise of the ownership and information about a dog should be what is known as status dogs among gangs and young recorded on an approved database. The idea is that people, contributing to antisocial behaviour and illegal owners with microchipped dogs will be encouraged to activities. Sadly, the victims of those gangs tend to be put the welfare of their dog first, as well as to take more Staffordshire bull terriers. In 1996, Battersea dogs home responsibility for the animal’s behaviour. took in 380 Staffies. Last year, that figure rose to 1,869, In Northern Ireland, the microchipping of dogs will which accounts for 37% of all dogs at the home. It tells become a compulsory condition of someone being issued me that, between 1996 and 2009, the number of a dog licence. What is more, the compulsory microchipping Staffordshire bull terriers at the home increased by of all dogs has widespread public support. Not only do 850%. groups such as the Dogs Trust, Battersea dogs home Battersea dogs home is now seeing a trend towards and the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health different breeds, such as the Siberian husky. The number support the measure, but a recent Dogs Trust survey of Siberian huskies at the home has increased by 28% in found that 83% of the UK population believe in compulsory the past year. Those dogs are often taught to be violent microchipping. If the Government want to introduce and as a consequence struggle to be rehomed. The worthwhile dog legislation, they have to extend problem is made even worse by the rise of backstreet microchipping beyond puppies. breeding and the sale of dogs over the internet. Such dogs are often abandoned and become stray. Mr Gray: I am listening carefully to what the hon. Some 40% of all the Staffordshire bull terriers taken Gentleman has to say. I quite understand that compulsory into Battersea dogs home are two years old or younger. microchipping might help with stray dogs being rehomed Many of those dogs are labelled as pit bulls when they and returned to their owners. However, I cannot imagine are nothing of the sort. The thing I found most interesting what possible connection there is between the compulsory when I finally came face to face with a pit bull terrier microchipping of dogs and either the Scottie dog that was that I realised I did not know what a pit bull looked very tragically attacked a child or, indeed, a perfectly like. When I thought about what a pit bull looked like, normal dog that is microchipped and attacks a canvasser the dog I was thinking of was an American bull dog, sticking leaflets through a door. What relationship is which is a far bigger dog and a different breed. there between microchipping and controlling these dogs? The online quick sale of puppies often takes place, and many of those sold online are banned under the Chris Evans: To be honest, it is quite simple. We have Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Those negative aspects of no way of identifying these dogs. We do not know who dog ownership are not tackled in the Government’s owns them. If we have microchipping, we know who the proposals. It is highly unlikely that a puppy that is bred owners are. At the end of the day, when I was bitten illegally and sold over the internet will end up in the through a letterbox— hands of an owner who will make the effort to microchip them. Mr Gray: My hon. Friend the Member for South There has been success in recent years with the Dorset (Richard Drax) mentioned a dog that was in introduction of dog control orders, which prevent the someone’s house. movement of dogs on certain areas of land. Those orders are particularly helpful in safeguarding children’s Chris Evans: That is a different case. When I was play areas and parks from overly playful dogs that may bitten through a letterbox, I did not know who owned scare or injure a child. However, dog control orders are that dog. I could not track that person down. I knocked at the discretion of the local authority, and there are on the door and there was no answer. Somebody’s dog playgrounds across the country where dogs are still bit me and I do not know who owns it. If we are going allowed to roam. to introduce major measures, we need to know who When I spoke to Battersea dogs home about the issue owns these dogs. of dog control orders, it told me that it was important for a balance to be struck. Of course, it is important Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) that parents can take their children to parks without (Con): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on having fear that they may be approached by a dog. However, at secured this important debate. I would like to highlight the same time, parks are obvious places for dog owners the information I was given by the Hampshire police to walk their dogs. dog unit to assist him with that point. One of the biggest problems it has after a dog attack has occurred Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ is identifying which dog did it. As a very experienced Co-op): In Hackney, three new dog control orders were dog handler of many years said to me, one brindle introduced as of 1 April. Does my hon. Friend agree Staffie-type dog looks very much like another. He went that the challenge is having the resources to police those 105WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 106WH

[Meg Hillier] stop dog attacks before they start. By introducing compulsory microchipping of all dogs, recorded on a orders? Although they send out a signal, without the single national database, owners will be encouraged to dog wardens on the ground, they do not have as much take responsibility for the behaviour of their dogs. value as we may think. Banning the sale of dogs in newspapers and on the internet and introducing a list of approved breeders Chris Evans: Absolutely. Unless dog control orders would help to prevent the illegal breeding of dogs. With can be enforced and policed, they do not mean anything. more than 5,000 people hospitalised due to dog attacks Therefore, instead of dog control orders, the Government in the past two years, it is time the Government realised could have followed the example of the Scottish that the law must change. Sadly, the Government’s Government who have introduced dog control notices. proposals look like a missed opportunity. The Northern Ireland Assembly has also introduced control notices as a way of monitoring the behaviour of Several hon. Members rose— dog owners. Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Due to the large number John Pugh (Southport) (LD): The hon. Gentleman of interventions, and as there are seven people on the dismisses microchipping, but presumably if it were made list who wish to speak, speeches will have to be limited compulsory with proper enforcement, there is also a to five minutes. case for dogs, particularly dangerous dogs, being confiscated from people who do not have them microchipped. 2.51 pm Chris Evans: That is it in a nutshell. If people had Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): It is a great pleasure to dangerous dogs that were not microchipped, they could serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. be confiscated. As you know, Ms Dorries, the press can sometimes be very cruel. A few years ago, one of my dogs, a pug, won Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): the Westminster dog of the year competition. The Times Is the challenge not that, under the Government’s current showed a photograph of the pug and me, and said that proposals, microchipping will happen only to new puppies the pug was the one on the right. I thought that that was and, therefore, millions of dogs will not be microchipped? pretty cruel in the circumstances, but I was consequently We will have to wait years until the entire British dog invited to join the Kennel Club. I think I am one of the population has a microchip. few Members of Parliament who are members of the Kennel Club, so I feel an obligation to speak on this Chris Evans: That is why it is important that we subject. follow the Northern Ireland example and have compulsory microchipping. I agree almost entirely with the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), with one exception. Clearly, we From speaking to groups such as Dogs Trust, it is need action to ensure that dogs do not attack people on clear that their favoured way of introducing legislation private land. We need to ensure that it is an offence for is in relation to a preventive measure. They believe that dogs to attack other dogs, such as guide dogs. I think improvement notices should be issued to dog owners that everyone agrees about microchipping. Every rather than notices being linked to pieces of land. Such organisation—the Dogs Trust, the Kennel Club and so notices work preventively to ensure that owners take on—is agreed on that. The only issue is whether certain steps to control their dog in public, and allow microchipping will be compulsory for every dog, or local authorities to force owners to use a muzzle or lead whether to start with puppies and move up. All I ask of if there is a risk to public safety. A breach of a dog those right hon. and hon. Members who say that it control order is an offence that risks a fine of up to should be compulsory to microchip every single dog £1,000 and disqualification from owning a dog, but immediately is that they reflect on the number of cases there was nothing about that in the Government’s recent in each of our constituencies of elderly constituents proposals. who will say, “The trauma of taking my elderly dog to Stray dogs are an important issue in any discussion of be microchipped will be too difficult.” Having every dangerous dogs legislation, as they are linked directly local newspaper carrying such stories about that will with dog attacks. Despite that, the Department for soon undermine confidence. I think I am one of the few Environment, Food and Rural Affairs considers the hon. Members who was here during the progress of the control of strays as a local authority matter. With local Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. It fell apart like a two bob authority budgets feeling the strain and more local suit soon after it was implemented because of all its services being cut, the budget for animal welfare is not internal contradictions. high on many councils’ list of priorities. Some have merged their animal welfare function with pest control, Chris Evans: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on while others claim that they have no budget at all to deal raising an issue that I missed in my speech. I should with stray dogs. The issue has not been dealt with have said that if we are to go ahead with compulsory adequately by the Government. microchipping we should consider some sort of scheme All those major problems still exist despite the for the elderly, for whom dogs provide great Government’s recent proposals. The charities concerned companionship—access to free microchipping, or with dangerous dogs legislation that I speak to have something similar to the Dogs Trust scheme, which been left frustrated by the reluctance of the Government charges £10. The hon. Gentleman makes a very good to go further. This was a chance to reform the legislation point, and I must apologise for not mentioning it in my on dangerous dogs and include preventive measures to speech. 107WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 108WH

Tony Baldry: That is a good point, too. There are a had said, “He may look ferocious, but he is a lovely number of issues in any legislation introduced by the family pet and no problem at all.” No sooner had he Minister and the Department for Environment, Food said that then his dog set upon our Labrador. and Rural Affairs that will need to be teased out in due The owner was shocked that his dog was capable of course on Second Reading. the attack, which reminds us that the heart of the debate is responsible dog ownership. Any dog is capable— Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. given the moment, time or provocation—of causing Gentleman for giving way and I apologise for not being injury. There needs to be particular responsibility for here at the beginning of the debate. Nobody has mentioned some breeds, such as some terriers and Staffies. That is the legislation introduced by the Northern Ireland Assembly, why this issue goes far beyond legislation into our which makes provision for elderly people who cannot culture and attitude towards dogs. We all know that in afford to have their dogs microchipped. Perhaps the many cases we are dealing with a dangerous owner Northern Ireland example will be cited by the Minister, rather than a dangerous dog, and we need to find ways who is very knowledgeable on this issue, as a way to to tackle the issue. bring everybody on board and to not make people feel I also speak on behalf of my constituents. Increasingly disadvantaged financially. typical in the constituencies represented in the Chamber, particularly in London, are a growing number of so-called Tony Baldry: Of course. We will come on to a number status dogs roaming around parks without proper of points on Second Reading or in Committee about responsible ownership. Many of our constituents, whether exemptions and exceptions to compulsory microchipping families with young children or responsible dog owners, of the entire dog population. will not go into parks because they are worried about Universal, compulsory microchipping is not the being attacked. That is unacceptable and we need to do immediate panacea that it appears to be. There are something about it. complexities that need to be teased out during the course of debate on any Bill. I hope that whatever legislation is introduced will be more enduring than the Caroline Nokes: I want to draw my hon. Friend’s Dangerous Dogs Act 1991—I think everyone agrees on attention to some work done by the Dogs Trust over the that. If we start microchipping puppies, because they past few years encouraging responsible dog ownership, are easy to identify and so on, there is nothing to stop improving education and particularly working with local authorities and other organisations, such as the disadvantaged young men to encourage them to have Dogs Trust, encouraging people to microchip their own their dogs neutered and microchipped, and to learn dogs. Indeed, if strays are taken in, they might be given how to handle them. Better education has a massive to owners on the understanding that they undertake to role to play. microchip them immediately. I think the whole House agrees on the need to take Mr Burrowes: I pay tribute to the work of the Dogs action to prevent dogs attacking people on private Trust, which works locally alongside owners, housing property, and to stop them attacking guide dogs. I think associations, police, schools and across the board to that everyone agrees on the need for microchipping. carry out projects, including pilots that need to be However, having gone through all the difficulties of the extended. In Enfield, in the Parkguard project, two Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, we need to ensure that we dedicated parks officers make it their business to encounter get the next piece of legislation right. That will require intimidating-looking dogs—and intimidating owners, us to work hard on the detail of any Bill that is introduced. probably—and work with them to try to encourage them and teach them how to handle their dog properly. More of that needs to happen. 2.56 pm We need a change in legislation. As a lawyer, I welcome Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is a the extension to the definition of private places, having pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. argued the case over whether a place is private or I welcome the debate and come to it with a number of public. I heard recently from the council leader in interests. As a criminal defence solicitor for more than Enfield that, during the London elections, a German 14 years, I have defended many a so-called dangerous shepherd opened a door into a yard and attacked a dog and have seen for myself the failings of the legislation. canvasser, seriously injuring their arm. That change is The winners are either the lawyers or the animal experts needed and makes sense, as does microchipping. The who deal with the not so simple issue of whether a pit measures must be dealt with proportionately but carefully. bull is a pit bull. I have employed the wisdom of many Local discretion needs to be inbuilt to enable more such an expert in many a long trial. The legislation dogs—not just puppies—to be chipped. often fails the victims of the attacks that we have heard This is a good start. As a lawyer, I know that identity so much about. is a key issue. Many an argument has been had about I have a more immediate interest in the debate, as two who really owns a dog and we should not underestimate weeks ago, my Labrador was attacked in our local park that issue. However, it is important to go beyond legislation, by a Staffordshire bull terrier. My Labrador ended up in into prevention. That is why local projects are good. We the local animal hospital. My family were around at the can develop a general culture about how we handle our time. Thankfully it was only the dog who was attacked, dogs carefully. and no one else. I have great respect for Staffies, which This is still a nation of dog lovers. However, we must are great family pets, and I do not wish to demonise recognise that the nation has changed over the years, them. Indeed, it is important not to demonise breeds—sadly, especially in London, with different cultures comprising a result of previous legislation. The owner of the Staffy our metropolis. In my patch, for example, many people 109WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 110WH

[Mr Burrowes] What is the Minister’s, and his Department’s, assessment of the impact of police cuts on the enforcement of the in the Turkish community have a particular view about new dangerous dogs legislation? What work has the dogs, which are not traditionally regarded as pets. We Department done with the Home Office to ensure that, need to show respect and develop people’s education despite the cuts, police forces will still be adequately early on, so that they understand how to look after dogs equipped to tackle irresponsible dog ownership. Thirdly carefully and own them, so that we can truly be a nation and finally, on compensation to victims, I hope that the of dog lovers. Minister is aware that the Ministry of Justice proposes to end criminal injuries compensation scheme payments to dog attack victims in cases of irresponsible dog 3.1 pm ownership. Only in cases where the dog is purposefully Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): set upon a victim will CICS claims be allowed in future. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn That means that in cases where the dog owner is uninsured (Chris Evans)on securing today’s debate, which is timely and has no money or assets, postal workers and children given the Government’s recent announcements. I apologise, who suffer horrific injuries will receive no compensation Ms Dorries, because I will not be able to stay for the end from any source. Will the minister confirm that this is of the debate; I have to leave early to attend a meeting so? If he cannot, will he engage with colleagues at the with a Minister on a constituency matter. MOJ on that? All hon. Members in this Chamber know about irresponsible dog ownership: we see it at first hand in Mr Burrowes: Does the hon. Lady know about the our constituencies. The British Medical Journal estimates recent and welcome criminal justice legislation, which that every year in the UK, 250,000 people are bitten by gives a presumption of compensation for all victims of dogs. Since 2006, six children have tragically lost their crime that will extend, particularly in respect of the lives in dog attacks, including the tragic death in 2009 of legislation to cover private property, to most people John Paul Massey in my constituency. Some 400 telecoms who are victims of dog attacks? We must prosecute workers and more than 6,000 postal workers are attacked these people and get them before the courts, then people by dogs every year in the course of their work. will receive the proper compensation. It is not just people who are victims. Hon. Members Luciana Berger: As I said earlier, I welcome the have mentioned dogs attacking other dogs. Some Government’s extension of the legislation to cover private 100 instances of guide dogs being attacked by other property, which hon. Members from all parties have dogs were reported to the Guide Dogs charity last year, been calling for for a long time. However, if such an affecting some of the most vulnerable people in our attack happens and the owner does not have any assets, communities. I shall ask the Minister three questions in under the new proposals advanced by the Ministry of the light of the recent announcement by the Department Justice, they will have no recourse to compensation, for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and of the except in the specific instance where a dog is purposefully announcement by the Home Office yesterday on antisocial set on a victim, as outlined in the document. I am behaviour. First, I welcome DEFRA’s statement on concerned that, under the proposals, someone who extending the law to cover attacks on private property. sustains an injury—a child or a postal worker—will not With 70% of dog attacks taking place in a private home be eligible for any criminal compensation, even if there or garden, it is important that the law is extended. is a prosecution. That text is buried right at the end of However, I am keen that the Minister should say when the document. I can share a copy of it with the hon. those measures will be put into force. Will we have to Member for Enfield, Southgate, if he would like to see wait until the consultation on microchipping has ended it. I hope that the Minister responds to the specific before the law is extended to cover private property? points that I have made about the timetable, about the The Government should not wait. I should like them to police being able to enforce the new legislation, and act now. about criminal injuries compensation. I am keen that the Minister should lay out a timetable for the coming into force of the proposals announced 3.7 pm yesterday by the Home Office and say what steps he will take to ensure that that proceeds with all urgency. It is John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the hon. vital that, having made such commitments, they are Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing this brought in as soon as possible. Every day, we read stimulating debate and on the measured, thoughtful newspaper stories about attacks in the UK. Delay leaves way in which he introduced the topic. the public at further risk. I cannot compete with some of the horror stories that Secondly, with regard to resourcing, including cuts to have been mentioned, but no politician is far from this policing, I am concerned about how effective the DEFRA issue. This year, I was accosted by two amiable Alsatians announcements will be without proper enforcement. that did not quite wish me to canvass the house that I Changing policy and giving enforcement agencies the had intended to visit. In my constituency this year, a powers that they should have had for a long time is one councillor has been bitten and a caseworker has lost thing, but it is equally important that the police and part of a finger. Hon. Members might like to speak to others have the resources to enforce the law and deliver my good friend, the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr Benton), results on the ground. Under the 20% police budget who to this day bears the marks of a serious attack by cuts, some 16,000 police officers will be taken off our dogs. streets. In Liverpool, that will translate to 350 police Fundamentally, the problem is dogs’ bad behaviour, officers by 2015, which will leave our police force in but that is associated with the problem of neglect and Merseyside stretched. poor training, which is worsened a great deal by the 111WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 112WH contemporary cult of the status dog, which people use highlighted was that of dangerous dogs, largely because as a potential deterrent or threat. Hitherto, the resolution, as a candidate in the few years running up to the which has been fairly straightforward, has been to ban election so many cases had been brought to my attention. so-called uncontrollable, savage dogs that are naturally Two years on, we seem to be making some progress, disinclined to behave themselves in a civilised fashion. which I am delighted about, but we are not there yet, The view has also been that owners of dogs that are out and I welcome some of the measures that the Government of control should be charged by the courts, and guidelines are at last proposing. Top of the list has to be extending have been issued in that regard over time. There is protection to private land, with appropriate exemptions general consensus that such measures are not sufficient if dogs are protecting property from illegal forced entry and that more is needed. or whatever. For far too long, many of our hard-working All hon. Members have acknowledged the fact that postal workers, delivery staff, carers and health visitors—the we cannot legislate for the genuinely unpredictable. list goes on—have not been protected by the law from Occasionally, even well-behaved dogs go beserk and do dog attacks if those occur on private land. strange, unpredictable things, even if owners wish them As I pointed out in a previous speech, it is patently not to do so. Hon. Members are probably aware of such ridiculous that at the moment, if a hand puts something cases. However, much of what people are anxious about through a letterbox and gets bitten by a dog on the is, sadly, predictable. The fundamental drive behind all other side, that would not attract any prosecution but, if our contributions today is the desire to see dog owners it was the owner of the house who was sitting behind made more genuinely responsible for their dogs. the door and bit the hand, that would. Such a situation Otherwise—something suggested to me by police dog seems rather ridiculous, but is at last being remedied, handlers—there ought to be some restriction on who although I understand that we are still awaiting a change can own certain sorts of dogs. That idea was put to me in the law to allow such prosecutions to take place. I seriously by a man who has had a lot of experience hope that that will happen soon—it cannot happen too breeding dogs and working with the police with dogs. If fast, in my view. we do not allow someone with a criminal record of some length to own firearms and the like, why would we I am also pleased that we are consulting on allow him to own a dangerous or potentially dangerous microchipping, and I have listened with interest to some dog? of the remarks about that. We need to find the right balance; there is the issue of pushing for full implementation That is a separate point from the drive to increase to further the cause of responsible ownership, but I do owner responsibilities, and I have no particular view on not want to see elderly grannies with their 14-year-old which of a number of different suggestions along that poodles being marched down to wherever it is and told line would be best. I favour microchipping, but one that they must get their animals microchipped at that might want to look at insurance, which has not been late stage. I hope I am making clear my point about the mentioned so far; at obliging owners to muzzle or keep need for balance. dogs on a lead; and at neutering certain dogs, if they are to be owned in certain circumstances, almost as a The most sensible course is to start with young pups precondition of sale, although none of that gets around that are taken to vets for early health checks. A decent the issue that is dogging the whole affair, which is the percentage of people already microchip their animals, problem of genuinely irresponsible owners. They do not but there will always be that law-ignoring minority who even shoulder their current responsibilities and, if asked will simply take no notice. We can get our numbers up, to do more, will discard the animals that they have however, by encouraging early microchipping. Local taken on. There seems to be a lot of evidence that that is authorities could do something to help by using their happening—a large number of Staffordshire bull terriers tenancy agreements to insist that animals living in council end up in pounds throughout the land and are destroyed. properties are microchipped. The other day, the average life expectancy of a Staffordshire The most difficult problem to tackle, but also one of bull terrier was cited as about four years, because people the most urgent—certainly in my constituency—is take them on but discard them when they become irresponsible owners who use their dogs to menace their troublesome. local community, hanging around in parks or on streets. Police are often reluctant to intervene, unless there is a I am genuinely convinced that the threshold for the clear-cut case of an unprovoked attack in which someone ownership and breeding of dogs needs to be raised, is badly injured. Even attacks on other pets do not seem either generally or for specific breeds, but that will only to be a reason for police to interfere. be an effective remedy if coupled with sensible plans for realistic enforcement. Without enforcement, no proposal will be worth while, but there is the question of how Jim Shannon: I want to make a point salient to the enforcement will be funded, which drives us back to the issue of people who hang about in parks with dogs. issue of whether a licence is a viable idea. Another such issue is with gangs who hang about with dogs, and a multiplicity of people with dogs is a real threat—if we see them, right away we are fearful. Do we 3.11 pm now have the chance to address that? Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): It is a Angie Bray: That absolutely needs addressing. Often, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries—for too, drug dealers use dogs to protect them in their trade. the first time, I believe. Yes, indeed, we need to look at how we can break such It is almost exactly two years since I made my maiden gangs up. In fact, I was about to say that the Home speech to a half-full Chamber—or half-empty, depending Office is bringing forward some new measures that can on how we look at it—and one of the issues that I help. 113WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 114WH

[Angie Bray] That is only one e-mail, but in the time that I have been an MP I have had a number of constituents contacting First, I like the suggestion of an acceptable behaviour me, in particular people who are fearful even of going order, which could enable the police or other agencies to out of their front door, let alone into a park, because of require someone whose dog is proving to be a menace to the aggressive behaviour of some owners, with their sign up to certain conditions, such as muzzling the dog, deliberate training of dogs to be aggressive and weapon-like. having it on a lead or accepting some education from, Hackney council has sought to deal with the problem for instance, the Dogs Trust or the RSPCA about in a number of ways. It, too, has introduced some proper dog ownership; if the owners do not fulfil what controls into the tenancy agreement on the number of they sign up to, they are left open to further penalties. pets that people own, although that alone is not a We would be getting involved with such people early on, solution. Any irresponsible owner will find ways around hopefully before serious injuries happened. I like the most of those measures, which is a point that we must early intervention possibilities and how owners are put all bear in mind. on notice that, if they do not start looking after their As a result of situations such as the one I cited, dog properly, they could be in trouble. Hackney council has introduced three new dog control We are also looking at something called the community orders, which came into effect from April. One is a dog trigger, which allows concerned residents to insist that exclusion order, which enables the council to stop dogs the police or other agencies take action after three from entering certain areas, including children’s playgrounds, complaints. Again, that could involve people who are sports courts, multi-use games areas and marked pitches consistently worried about a gang of people hanging when games are in play. around with a threatening dog in a particular park. There are also criminal behaviour orders, which I A second order requires dogs to be on leads and understand could be attached to those convicted of prohibits owners from exercising their dogs off the lead certain crimes, including violence, and which could in on roads, in small parks and gardens, on the canal certain circumstances ban someone unsuitable from towpath and in car parks and churchyards. That is an being in control of a dog in a public place. That will all example of how irresponsible dog ownership has affected help, and the tougher sentencing guidelines are also responsible dog owners. Many dog owners are quite welcome, although belated. able to control their dog on the canal towpath or in churchyards, for instance, without causing a problem Finally, I want to flag up something that can make a for children at play or other adults. Hackney has felt the difference in the medium to long term: local authorities need to introduce the orders because of the fear factor getting much more involved in enforcing housing tenancy and some irresponsible dog owners. We will see how agreements, which seek to control pets in council properties. that plays out, but it is a worry to me that we must go Wandsworth has led the way, and my own local authority that way. I still welcome the move, however, at this of Ealing has also been setting up new agreements, point. although I am told that those are yet to be properly enforced; I have raised the issue with the council and A third order requires dogs to be on leads when a been reassured that it is being looked at. Obviously, it request is made to owners. That gives officers the power makes no sense to adopt a new policy if it is not then to request that dogs should be put on leads if they are implemented. I would like to see London councils and not under appropriate control or if they are causing the Greater London assembly do much more to push damage or acting aggressively. That latter point is the those new housing tenancy agreements, which could most important, but the key issue, of course, with the make a real difference. new or even with existing powers, is enforcement. We already have the powers in Hackney to issue fines for In conclusion, real progress is being made at last, dog fouling in public, for instance, but when I talk to which I welcome, but there is more to do, in particular constituents about that there is a certain cynicism about to ensure that new measures are properly implemented the likelihood of enforcement. Some of the people who and enforced. We need to remember the dreadful attacks are intent on using their dogs as weapons will not be on young children, as well as on many others such as where the dog wardens are. If they see the dog wardens, postal workers, that go unreported. There are no guarantees, they will tend to disappear. but we should be minimising the chances. Good dog owners will do all the things that are 3.18 pm required anyway. I am in favour of microchipping and think that the arguments have been well put today. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Microchipping is a good thing. On its own, it is not a Co-op): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, solution; it is something that good owners will do, but Ms Dorries. Congratulations to my hon. Friend the the bad owners, who breed and sell, will not play that Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing the debate. game. I simply wish to echo some of the points made by my There have been proposals about exclusive dog breeders, colleagues from London who have spoken already, in and about being able to buy only from some licensed particular about gangs and dogs used as weapons. I dog breeders. I would be wary of that approach, which quote from one of the e-mails that I have received from it seems to me would create a sort of cartel. It would be a constituent: difficult to control what happened, especially in rural “I no longer come across normal breeds now”— areas where dogs are born without being, shall I say, this is his impression— planned and bred in the same way as elsewhere. I mean “just staffies and pit bull types. They are everywhere! In the parks that I know farmers here who tell me that one in seven where small children play, the dogs are hung on to the trees to dogs is likely to become a sheep dog; they do not know strengthen the jaws. They are walked around by intimidating which, when they are born, so of course they tend not owners and quite frankly it is an epidemic.” to keep them all. 115WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 116WH

I welcome the fact that Hackney has taken on such It is good to have the Minister here. We are all very important powers; however, the hon. Member for Banbury much in favour of microchipping, and I want to ask (Tony Baldry) has made some sensible and reasonable him about the database in particular. Microchipping is points about what Parliament needs to do. There is all very well, but the database must be right and it must clearly cross-party support for some measures, but we work. The information must be correct. The Select need to work, as the hon. Gentleman said, on ensuring Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that the Bill is put together properly. We have seen what launched its inquiry at Battersea yesterday, and we seemed like the benefits of the Dangerous Dogs Act found out that for a third of microchipped dogs the 1991. There was a lot of support for it. The danger is information is not accurate or up to date. that we chase the headlines and pick up the bad examples, It is right to make sure that we have an accurate without thinking of the consequences. database. When a puppy is sold, the first owner or We need to tease through every consequence to see breeder must be responsible for ensuring that the what the impact will be on different areas of our information about where the dog then goes is correct. constituencies, and on our constituents. It may be early Thereafter, somewhat as with the licensing of a car, it is for the Minister to reflect on this, but there can be a possible to follow the dog through its life. Otherwise it danger of including in primary legislation things that will disappear off the database. The idea is also good can be changed only with further primary legislation. from a breeding point of view. It will make it possible to The legislation may need to be adapted for the future be sure that the breeding is correct, without in-breeding use of dogs, and we need it to enable minor changes to or the breeding of bad aspects into a certain breed of be made through regulation, once the basic principles dog—so that the buyer gets a healthy dog. From all are established. That will give the Government and those points of view, the proposal is a good thing. Parliament the freedom to change the law and adapt People always say, however, that the law works for the and adjust it as new breeds come to fruition, or as law-abiding, and we must be careful that we do not just people try to use dogs in new ways. I feel strongly about make it more onerous for the law-abiding to get their that. We cannot wait for primary legislation if we do dogs microchipped. We need to be able to tackle the not get things right, or the situation changes. other dogs out there, whose owners will never want to have them microchipped. Mr Burrowes: I welcome the points that the hon. As to problems with postal workers and social workers, Lady has made, about things that affect London if someone is inviting someone to push a letter through communities as well as the rest of the country. their door and knows that their dog is likely to bite the The Government have made a proposal about kennelling person who puts it through, they are responsible for the costs, and ways to make the action that is taken dog and should take action so that that does not happen. proportionate. I know as a solicitor how long dogs The same is true if a social worker comes into their effectively await trial. The cost of that, just in London, house. That is a key point. As a farmer, I know that is £2.75 million. If we can deal proportionately with occasionally—and this would be more difficult in law—a dogs that will not be a risk, that must be welcome. If dog that has never turned before will turn suddenly. dogs are a risk they need to be on bail conditions, so to That will probably make for interesting cases, and we speak, of muzzling and a lead, and so forth. cannot get everything right, although we must try to. I want to mention status dogs, quickly. Having looked Meg Hillier: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I was around Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, it is clear to just about to move on to the issue of the cost of me—in relation to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991—that kennelling. Responsible owners—and irresponsible ones— breed-specific legislation does not work, for the simple can contribute to that, but it is a cost to Londoners, and reason that, as we were told, some of the cross-bred I think it would be better spent on enforcement. We dogs that are now being bred weigh 8 stone. We can need to consider all the consequences. At the moment, imagine that once a dog of that kind has been trained to because of the breed-based nature of the Dangerous be vicious, it will be a hell of a weapon. To be blunt, that Dogs Act 1991, it is difficult for the police to establish is what some criminal elements do: they breed those what they need to, and it takes them a long time. In my dogs in the back streets, and train them to be vicious constituency there are higher priorities for police funding weapons. The other problem is that if they abandon than kennelling, so we need to think about how the those dogs, most of them are so vicious that they issue is tackled. cannot be rehabilitated and rehomed: there is a death sentence on those dogs, because of the way they are We clearly have a cross-party consensus and agree brought up. that we want to proceed positively. I hope that the Minister will take our suggestions in good part, and It is not often the dogs that are to blame—it is the work with me and others who have an interest in individual or gangs who bring them up. That is probably ensuring that responsible dog owners can enjoy their the most difficult aspect of the measures to get right. dogs, and that other people will not be made afraid There is currently law enabling the police to act in because of those who are irresponsible. relation to dangerous dogs. We need to be able to allow the RSPCA and others to take up the cudgels. We need to act when a dog is obviously starting to get vicious, 3.24 pm when that is obvious from the way that it is being taken around—whether the owner is hanging around the parks Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is a with it, or whatever they are doing—and from the pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. behaviour of the dog and the people around it. Even I thank the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) for before the dog has viciously bitten anyone, that is the securing the debate. time to pounce on it, and at least try to get it microchipped, 117WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 118WH

[Neil Parish] and then abandoned. Some, having not been controlled and trained, become a problem for the owner and the so that a link back can be traced. In films where gangs public, but many are kept on as family pets. I have seen use such dogs as weapons, the one great advantage that someone in the park across the road from where I live they have is the fact that the dog cannot be traced back releasing a dog—an Alsatian or German Shepherd—when to an individual member of the gang. children were playing in the small child’s play park. I quake when I see that, because no one knows what that Meg Hillier: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that if dog will do, no matter how good the owner is. aggressive behaviour is witnessed by the police they It is important to put on the record the measures that should have the power in law to enforce microchipping the Bite Back campaign wants. Until they are granted, of the dogs? I would support that; it might tackle some the Government—any Government, because the campaign of the irresponsible dog owners that we agreed about. started in 2008 under the previous Government—will be under pressure from those who want the problem Neil Parish: That is exactly what I am suggesting, solved. The campaign says that those measures should because we must try to take action. If someone has been include UK-wide consolidated and strengthened dog bitten, or a dog has been used as a weapon—as an control legislation, not tinkering, to prevent attacks on attack dog—we have failed. If we get hold of the dogs children and the general public, postal and telecom before that happens, and link them to their owners, workers, and other public-contact workers who may go those owners who want to use them as a weapon will be to places where there is a dog. much less likely to be able to do so. We must send a clear message to those people that the situation cannot continue. There should be dog control legislation that applies It destroys not just our society, but many healthy dogs everywhere, including on private property. Preventive who should not have ended up as they did. I strongly dog control notices, which exist in Scotland, should be believe that in most cases it is the fault not of the dog, introduced. The fudge of a wrap-around general control but of the way in which it was brought up. That is why order will not do. The notices must be specific, as in we must pin the dog to those who perpetrate the problem. Scotland and, I believe, Northern Ireland. All dogs should be compulsorily microchipped, so that people I know that it is difficult to get everything right, but I who take on a dog know that that will be recorded. I urge the Minister to ensure that we have an accurate accept the good points that the hon. Member for Tiverton database that will continue into the future, that we and Honiton (Neil Parish) made about the database target not breeds but the behaviour of dogs, and, most being kept up to date and compulsory. That happens for importantly, that we make sure that when dogs are used cars, and if someone forgets to make a statutory off as a weapon we use all the powers we have to link them road notification, they are fined. I know farmers who back to their owners so that they can be properly have been fined for having cars abandoned in their prosecuted. That will send the message to everyone else. fields, because they forgot to register that they had been abandoned. 3.31 pm There should be compulsory third party insurance Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): cover for dogs and better criminal compensation orders. I am the organising secretary of the Communications The Government must reverse their appalling proposal Workers Union group of liaison MPs, and I am proud that people will not receive criminal injuries compensation of that. I compliment the CWU’s Bite Back campaign, if they are attacked by a dog when someone has been which has put some steel into the issue since 2008— proven to be irresponsible with the dog. There should particularly Dave Joyce, who is the health and safety be good local authority dog wardens with powers for officer. Trade unions do good work for people. them and the police to intervene immediately if they Some 23,000 postal workers have been attacked by think a situation needs investigation, and to have the dogs in the past four years, and 6,000 go to hospital for dog removed. treatment every year because they have been seriously There should be harsher sentences by the courts for attacked by dogs. Twelve deaths have been recorded in irresponsible owners of dangerous dogs. There should the UK since 2005—seven children and five adults. be better information and education, but the question is Nothing that we do is good enough if another life is how much should be spent to get that education. It lost. I have here a photograph of Lena Gane, a postman should be compulsory for people to train and control who was attacked by a dog in Bristol on Thursday their dogs. There should be large public information 3 May 2012, and whose hand was almost severed. That campaigns to persuade people not to take on dogs if is not uncommon for postal workers and other direct- they are not willing to be responsible for them in every contact public workers. situation, and to generate compliance. The union’s assessment of the present consultation is The Bite Back campaign is supported not just by the that it is yet another fudge, and a missed opportunity. A postal workers, but by all law enforcement agencies, the two-year consultation has just finished, and there are Royal Society for the Protection of Animals, the Dogs no proposals other than to consider extending the legislation Trust, Blue Cross, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the to dogs on private property. Kennel Club, the Royal College of Nursing and the The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and British Veterinary Association. That is a large body of my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) opinion. Some 250,000 people are bitten by a dog every mentioned microchipping. If people were compelled to year. That means a lot of dogs that are not controlled. microchip and insure their dogs, they would think twice Some of the bites are severe, as we heard from the hon. about buying a dog and the responsibility involved. The Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax)—he has now Dogs Trust says that too many dogs are given as presents left the Chamber—who told us about a young girl who 119WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 120WH was bitten in the face. The problem is common and property, which means that traumatised and vulnerable endemic, and the Government have a duty to do something victims are forced to seek recourse through the civil about it. courts. Like Guide Dogs for the Blind, the CWU is It was wrong to make the existing legislation breed concerned at the low level of convictions as a result of specific, and I have said that time and again. We must attacks. If the Government intend to extend the law on do better, do it right, and do it all. that issue—and I understand that they do—I hope that there will be no further delay.

3.36 pm In government, Labour recognised that there were problems with the existing legislation on dangerous Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): It is a pleasure dogs, and in March 2010 we began a consultation on to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Ms tightening the law. We worked with the police, veterinarians, Dorries. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for canine and animal welfare groups and trade unions on a Islwyn (Chris Evans) on relating to us in graphic and range of powers needed to tackle dangerous dogs and harrowing detail the incident that inspired him to apply irresponsible owners. That consultation ended in June for this debate. It is rare to hear a contribution that 2010, but it took nearly two years for the coalition warrants an 18 certificate. Government to respond. During that time, more than The debate provides a timely opportunity to discuss 5,000 patients were admitted to hospital because of the Government’s policy on tackling irresponsible dog injuries caused by dog attacks in England and Wales, ownership and strengthening dog control. It is worth and nearly 10,000 postal workers were injured by domestic saying at the outset that if the Government get this dogs. Each month, more than seven guide dogs have right, they will have our full support. It may be appropriate been, and continue to be, attacked by dogs that are out to mention briefly a former colleague. Until 2010, Joan of control. Those figures are startling enough, but over Humble was the Labour MP for Blackpool North and the past year, police forces in England and Wales have Fleetwood. Last month, while campaigning for a Labour spent more than £3 million on kennelling dogs that have candidate, the tip of her wedding ring finger was bitten been seized under the 1991 Act. off when she posted a leaflet through a letter box. I know that the House will want to send its best wishes to Between 2004-05 and 2010, the number of out-of-control her for a speedy recovery. dogs seized by the Metropolitan Police Authority rose from 27 to more than 1,100. Scotland and Northern I note from a report on the BBC news website that Ireland have already implemented their own dog control the esteemed Chair of the Select Committee on laws, and Wales is reviewing the issue—I am sure that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn is taking a close for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), began her interest. There have been many traumatic and violent political career by being bitten by an Alsatian during an attacks over the past two years, most recently the case early campaign, but I am sure that she has now recovered of five Metropolitan police officers who were savagely from that. attacked by a dog, curiously enough named “Poison”, The Government announced their proposals to tackle as they attempted to arrest its owner. My hon. Friends dangerous dogs and irresponsible dog ownership on the Members for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) and for 23 April. Before speaking about them in more depth, I Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) heard at first hand a want to pay tribute to the work of two organisations horrifying testimony from the father of a little girl from that have already been mentioned and which have done Chingford whose ear had been chewed off in an some outstanding work in this field. First, the Guide unrestrained dog attack in a public park. Dogs for the Blind Association spends up to £50,000 to train a single dog to a high enough standard to serve a As my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and blind person, yet every week those animals are subject East Falkirk pointed out, about 20 organisations, including to vicious attacks by aggressive dogs on the public the RSPCA, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the Kennel highway, often dogs that are nominally under the control Club, the CWU, the Police Federation and the Association of their owners. Those attacks frequently result in the of Chief Police Officers, want the Government to live guide dog being injured, and even retired. By nature up to the Prime Minister’s promise to target irresponsible and training, they are passive animals, and their first owners of dangerous dogs. Labour, and all those affected instinct is to protect their owners, not themselves. Yet by dog attacks, also want to see that promise fulfilled. criminal sanctions against irresponsible dog owners are This is about promoting responsible dog ownership and very rare, leaving guide dogs and their owners constantly tackling irresponsible, incompetent and sometimes outright at risk without the protection of the law. I hope that in dangerous owners, as well as about the dogs themselves. his response the Minister will give a commitment to On 14 March 2012, my shadow ministerial colleague, address that injustice. my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore, wrote to the Secondly, I pay tribute to the Communication Workers Secretary of State stating: Union, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) has already referred, “I can assure you that Labour will support any measures that and to the Bite Back campaign spearheaded by its support animal welfare charities, unions, the Police and others in preventing unnecessary dog attacks and tackling the scourge of national health, safety and environment officer, Dave irresponsible dog ownership.” Joyce. The union has welcomed the recently reviewed sentencing guidelines for dog attacks, but makes the Sadly, however, the proposals announced last month serious point that in future, the law must apply to fell overwhelmingly short of expectations, and there private property as that is where 70% of dog attacks on were few who welcomed them with any vigour or delight. postal workers take place. The Dangerous Dogs Act We have noted the announcements in the White Paper 1991 does not cover attacks that take place on private on antisocial behaviour, and I will return to that shortly. 121WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 122WH

[Mr Tom Harris] cover private property will require changes to primary legislation. When and how will that be done? We need Billy Hayes, general secretary of the CWU, summed certainty and clarity, neither of which has been forthcoming up the mood perfectly when he questioned why there in ministerial announcements or in the Queen’s Speech. was another delay caused by yet another consultation. The broad coalition of groups to which I have referred He said: made a specific demand for measures that will prevent “We’ve had a comprehensive consultation, there’s cross-party attacks from taking place. Such measures would reduce support, now we need action.” the costs of kennelling and euthanasia, thousands and The chief executive of the RSPCA, Gavin Grant, said thousands of NHS treatments in A and E units and GP that the proposals “lack bite”, although I do not know surgeries, as well as days of work lost by front-line whether the pun was intended. Claire Horton, chief workers. Part of that is to do with early intervention executive of Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, said that and educating owners about responsible ownership. the proposals were a “wasted opportunity”, and Clarissa The limited programme that the Minister has announced Baldwin, chief executive of Dogs Trust, claimed that is welcome but it is pygmy-esque given the scale of the Government are intervention required. “just tinkering round the edges.” The Home Office White Paper on antisocial behaviour We welcome the extension—albeit delayed—of the includes proposals that are aimed at tackling irresponsible law to cover attacks on private property, and the dog ownership. The Home Office has rejected any dog- Government are making the right noises about a phased specific power, but stated that it will continue to work introduction of microchipping. However, the fact that with relevant groups, including the police, in finalising we are to have more consultations has been criticised proposals that will be of maximum benefit in dealing heavily, not least in the debate today, and there is no with dog-related antisocial behaviour. We are studying clear timetable for the implementation of the proposals. the proposals closely, but will the Minister guarantee Furthermore, there is nothing in DEFRA’s proposals to that they will not become a dodgy doggy ASBO to be help prevent dog attacks. flouted and ignored? Many people want to see specific I have a series of questions for the Minister. I shall try dog control notices. Does the Minister know why the to be brief and I hope that he will address these points Home Office rejected that idea? today. If not, I hope that he will make a commitment to What discussions has the Minister had with Home write to me with the answers. A new and additional Office colleagues about these proposals, and does know consultation on microchipping has been announced. how acceptable behaviour order and community protection When will that end and when will the proposals be put notices will be enforced? Has he made any assessment into action? It is only right that the Minister makes of what impact the proposals will have in preventing clear the timetable for implementation. There are four dog attacks? Does he know how many attacks will be existing microchip databases. Will the Minister explain prevented, and can he assure us that Ministers across how it will be made easier for law enforcement agencies, his Department and the Home Office are working vets, animal welfare charities and dog wardens to cut collaboratively to tackle out-of-control dogs and through that confusion? Will the databases be streamlined, irresponsible dog ownership? In short, are Ministers and will there be any compulsion for bodies to co-operate barking up the same tree? [Interruption.]—Yes, I apologise. and share information? We need joined-up government to make safety on the As we know, information currently stored on dog streets a reality, and I urge the Government to listen to microchips is often out of date. Owners have passed the views of those who have come together to promote away or moved on and not informed the database, or responsible dog ownership. Most importantly, I urge else they simply deny that the dog is theirs. What the Minister to get on with implementing the measures measures will the Minister introduce to ensure that and put them in place as soon as possible. microchips are updated on a regular basis, and that the last recorded owners take responsibility for their dog? If 3.49 pm the legislation is not tightened up, then short of being useful for restoring dogs to responsible owners, the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for database will do nothing to tackle irresponsible owners. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): What discussions has the Minister had with animal It is a great pleasure to respond to this excellent debate welfare charities and others to make microchipping and there have been some good contributions. I pay low-cost or zero-cost, and to make it apply beyond tribute to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) for registered breeders, thereby driving programmes into raising this important issue with such commitment, and other areas where the benefits of and need for microchipping for continuing an ongoing dialogue on the issue. I and wider animal welfare advice are clear? What effect entirely recognise the points that he raises. I pay tribute will the proposals for microchipping puppies from legitimate to the many organisations to which he referred: Guide registered dog breeders have on the wider issue of Dogs for the Blind, the Communication Workers Union, unregistered or back-street breeders, surplus puppies the Dogs Trust and, of course, Battersea dogs home, from accidental litters, and the sale of puppies on the which he recently visited. internet? Does the Minister accept that a large part of There were other very powerful contributions. My the ownership problem, and the tide of untraceable hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) dogs that wash up in animal welfare charities, is unlikely pointed out the limitations of what many people—some to be affected simply by microchipping the products of of our constituents and some Members of this House—see registered puppy farms? The proposals are a welcome as a panacea for solving this problem. Microchipping development, but how will they deal with the wider is only a partial solution. As was said in a number issue? The extension of the law on dangerous dogs to of interventions, it does not deal with the fact that 123WH Dangerous Dogs23 MAY 2012 Dangerous Dogs 124WH unfortunately there will always be some people who fail and to increase the fee to have a dog added to the index to comply. The law can go only so far in catching them. of exempted dogs. The proposals are subject to consultation, The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana and we welcome people’s views before the consultation Berger), who informed hon. Members that she had to period ends on 15 June. We want to take action as leave the debate to go to a meeting, which of course we quickly as possible after that. understand, asked some specific questions that were In addition to the proposals that I have set out, we also asked by the hon. Member for Glasgow South are taking forward other work that we consider will (Mr Harris). Incidentally, I should have started by help to tackle the irresponsible ownership of dogs. A congratulating him on his position and saying that I number of initiatives are currently undertaken at local look forward to working with him. This issue is not my level. Some have been referred to in the debate. Those primary responsibility—it is, of course, Lord Taylor of initiatives are designed to promote more responsible Holbeach’s responsibility—but I am happy to work ownership of dogs. The Government welcome that. with the hon. Gentleman on it and many others. The Hon. Members on both sides of the House have been hon. Lady asked when the measures would be brought giving great leadership to some of those local initiatives. in, as did the hon. Gentleman. The introduction of We want to foster more of those projects and we feel microchipping would involve secondary legislation—an that those who may be interested in setting up projects amendment to the Animal Welfare Act 2006. The elements need to know what works well and in what circumstances. of the measures that have been announced that would To enable that to happen, DEFRA is funding innovative see current controls extending to private property and projects in London and in dog hot spots outside London that relate to the requirements for kennelling and a to provide learning that can be applied more widely. number of other areas would involve primary legislation. In the past, one criticism has been a perception that I have no date for when those measures could be brought enforcement of the law can vary between police forces, in, but we consider them urgent and hope that they can with some forces performing better than others. To be brought in as quickly as possible. redress that, we have already provided funding towards The hon. Lady also raised the question of police the training of more dog legislation officers—police resources. I can only say that these are local priority officers specially trained in the law on dangerous dogs. issues and will undoubtedly feature in the work of the That can make an enormous difference to a police force new police and crime commissioners. When my that is trying to tackle a problem but does not feel that it neighbouring MP was Boris Johnson, we conducted a has the resources to deal with it. Those additional campaign with Thames Valley police on dog theft. We specialists will help police forces across the country to got that horrible crime treated as much more of a deal with dangerous dog incidents. priority by the police force. It allocated resources and We also provide guidance to the courts, the police has done good work. A similar approach is being taken and the public on dangerous dogs. We are examining by other police forces. I know that hon. Members are whether that guidance needs to be updated and have still working hard with certain police forces to try to started to work with partners to see what changes need move this issue up the scale of their priorities. There to be made. will continue to be a debate and it will happen locally. On 15 May, the Sentencing Council published a new My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and guideline for judges and magistrates on sentencing for Acton (Angie Bray) is a long-standing campaigner on dangerous dog offences. For example, the top of the this issue, and I pay great tribute to her. She is pleased sentencing range for the offence of allowing a dog to be about what is being done, but quite rightly there is an dangerously out of control and injure someone has edge to what she says. She wants to push the Government, been increased from six months to 18 months. The and I will ensure that we continue to work with her. Sentencing Council states: There was an excellent contribution from the hon. “The new guideline will mean more offenders will face jail Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). sentences, more will get community orders and fewer will receive One very telling point that she made was about the discharges.” irresponsible dog owners affecting responsible dog owners. The new guideline will come into effect on 20 August That is entirely right. There are law-abiding people who 2012. are dog lovers or who do not have anything to do with As has been said, the Home Office has published a dogs whose lives are made hell by the irresponsible dog White Paper—it did so yesterday—containing proposals owners. Of course, that must remain a priority for us. to simplify the antisocial behaviour toolkit. We have I will try to deal with as many points as I can in the worked closely with the Home Office to ensure that the few minutes that I have left. I certainly commit to new antisocial behaviour measures cover irresponsibility writing to hon. Members if I fail to answer any of the with dogs. That includes people who deliberately use questions put to me. Let us be clear: the announcement their dogs to intimidate other people and those who of 23 April set out a number of proposals. One is to allow their dogs to stray and cause a nuisance—precisely extend to all places the criminal offence of allowing a the point made by the hon. Member for Hackney South dog to be dangerously out of control. That deals with and Shoreditch. The Home Office is determined that the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for those types of problem will be dealt with effectively in South Dorset (Richard Drax) and a number of others its proposed changes to the antisocial behaviour toolkit. about the terrible attacks that happen in the home and The Home Office fully recognises the need to ensure elsewhere that currently are not covered by legislation. that action can be taken to tackle antisocial behaviour The other proposals are: to remove the mandatory problems proactively before they degenerate into more requirement that suspected prohibited-type dogs must serious incidents, when action may have to be taken be seized by the police for at least the duration of the under existing dangerous dogs legislation. Many hon. court case; to require all puppies to be microchipped; Members have referred to the fact that certain dogs are 125WH Dangerous Dogs 23 MAY 2012 126WH

[Richard Benyon] Scottish-recruited Units used as a cover for other forms of criminality. That is of 4pm course a very big driver for the police and other law enforcement agencies. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): It feels a bit strange to be standing here once again to I realise that a number of people wanted to see address the prospects for the Scottish regiments, which proposals such as the introduction of dog control notices. we now have to refer to as the Scottish-recruited units. I I can see why dog control notices may be viewed as a remember standing in this self-same spot in the first of positive and preventive measure. However, I hope that I two debates that I managed to secure to put the case for can reassure everyone that anything that could be achieved Scotland’s historic regiments, when the previous Labour through such notices could be achieved through the Government introduced their amalgamation plans. I new antisocial behaviour measures proposed by the remember some of the fantastic speeches and really Home Office. I see no reason to introduce dog-specific passionate contributions from Members on both sides notices. They would not add value to what is already of the House, who recognised the incredible community out there. links and associations that our local then regiments had I hope that hon. Members will take the time to read with all our communities and constituencies. the White Paper. It sets out a range of ways in which The regiments brought heritage, culture and traditions practitioners could use the new powers to deal with to our constituencies and communities. More than anything, irresponsible dog owners, from using informal measures people recognised the admiration and respect that we to deal with problems early, to taking proactive action all felt towards our regiments for the almost unimaginable through a community protection notice to tell an task that they did on our behalf and the pride and irresponsible owner exactly what he needs to do or else, respect that we had for them for fulfilling their function and using the crime prevention injunction or criminal and making this the best Army set-up anywhere in the behaviour order to deal with more serious cases. world. I understand that there is considerable support for In 2004, the Labour Government were the villains. microchipping to be applied to all dogs. Our consultation They pushed through their amalgamations in the face on microchipping includes four options, but our preferred of total and overwhelming opposition. I remember the option is to microchip puppies as opposed to all dogs. rallies, the demos—the Edinburgh demonstration in The Government consider that there should be a balance December 2004 and the rally in Dundee. People came between linking dogs back to breeders and not imposing together to oppose Labour’s amalgamation plans. There a burden on all existing dog owners. Many points were were petitions. Usually, if an MP has a petition and is raised about the data and where they are held. There out on the high street, people are reluctant to sign it, but will be a real onus on the vendor of a dog to ensure that people were queuing to sign the petition to save their the data are changed. There will also be an onus on the local regiment. purchaser. No one wants liability to remain with them. It is like selling a car. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman The Government remain absolutely committed to acknowledge that the issue goes back to the 1960s? One resolving this problem as best they can. Let us face of my great-grandfathers was a pipe major in the Gordon facts. There will still be dog attacks. Whatever legislation Highlanders and one of my grandfathers went through the House introduces, there will still be appalling incidents, the whole of the first world war in the Highland Light but we must do everything that we can to provide the Infantry.Both those cap badges have long since disappeared. necessary protection to innocent people, who are currently They were great regiments with great traditions, but too often the victims of appalling crimes and attacks by their disappearance was not the end of civilisation as we dogs that are not managed responsibly by their owners. knew it. We have seen amalgamation and changes to cap badges in the Scottish regiments for nearly 50 years.

Pete Wishart: It is with great regret that we have lost some of those fantastic regiments. There are ways to do it. Our regimental system is admired across the world, and we mess with it at our peril. We were not successful in retaining the historic Scottish regiments. They were amalgamated and the Royal Regiment of Scotland appeared. We acknowledge that with much regret. One thing that we secured, an important concession that everyone recognises as valuable, was the idea of a golden thread that would allow the past to knit to the future and allow the former regiments some sort of identity and home within the Royal Regiment of Scotland.

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): When my hon. Friend speaks about the golden thread, it is not mere history or sentiment. It is essential to recruitment and retention into those geographically recruited units, such as the Black Watch, when recruits come from that area. It is vital for recruitment and retention into units such as that. 127WH Scottish-recruited Units23 MAY 2012 Scottish-recruited Units 128WH

Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend is spot on. It is more Pete Wishart: The hon. Lady is correct; there is than history, tradition and culture; it is about community national identity. The Scottish regiments are called “the association and links. He and I share a local regiment—the Jocks”—it is an affectionate, not demeaning, term. Black Watch. He and I recognise the value and importance Maintaining national identity within the regiments is of those community links, which are lost at our great important and we must hold on to it. peril. My local battalion—my Scottish-raised unit—is the We were not successful in preventing the amalgamation Black Watch. The regimental headquarters are in my plans. We had the golden thread. Some of us were constituency in Perth. They are currently being developed, sceptical about it. We feared that it might be lost in the Ms Dorries, and I am sure that you would like to know greater tapestry of the Royal Regiment of Scotland and that we will have a fantastic new museum. Come up and that once it was up and running it would develop a visit us. It is a magnificent place. history, tradition and momentum of its own. There was The Black Watch has just returned from its tour of also a very great and real fear that some future Government duty in Afghanistan. Thankfully, this time round, there and new Secretary of State for Defence would come were no fatalities or casualties, and we are all grateful along and decide that the golden thread was not worth for that. When the Black Watch returns to Scotland, all keeping and do away with it in a new defence review. We sorts of homecoming parades are organised across the have come close to that in the past few weeks. recruiting area. There were parades in Dundee, Forfar, We have heard all sorts of remarks from the Defence Kirkcaldy in Fife and, of course, a huge one in Perth. Secretary. He tried to suggest that the golden thread The streets were thronged. Hundreds of people turned was not valuable or important and that things such as up to show their admiration and respect for the Black names, cap badges and other insignia associated with Watch, which had come back safely. We organised a the regiments are not worth what we say they are. He civic reception for it in the evening; I will not tell you said something important: what happened after that, Ms Dorries, but I will just say “The ancient cap badges have largely gone, they are attached in that it was a particularly good evening. brackets to some unit names”. There is a connection between the people of Tayside With those remarks, he was attempting to say that the and Fife and the Black Watch. It is an important and legacy of our former regiments was somehow a burden cherished connection that must be maintained. The that needed to be addressed and conveniently disposed Black Watch was raised in Aberfeldy in my constituency of in favour of mere numbers. With one a stroke of a on the banks of the Tay in 1740 to keep watch on the Whitehall pen, these famous names would cease to exist lawless highlands. Thankfully, it no longer has to fulfil and be no more. that task—I could refer to the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy)—but it had an I do not think that the Defence Secretary understood important task in those days. or appreciated the attachment and sentiment that we have for our local regiments in Scotland, but after the It must have been in 2005, when the Black Watch was furore of the past few weeks, he kens noo, as we say in amalgamated into the new regiment of Scotland, that Perthshire. The proposition that the names, cap badges there was a march through Aberfeldy. It came to the and insignia should be done away with has received fantastic Black Watch memorial—a kilted soldier looking overwhelming hostility from every sector in the defence down on the very place that the regiment was mustered. community. I remember speaking to an infantryman that day who had served in the Black Watch many decades ago. He gave me the clearest understanding of what it is all Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): It is the same in about. He said that it is not about Queen and country, Angus, which has a strong attachment to the Black important though they are, but about your pals—the Watch. Not only is it about the current members of the pals who you have shared the same town with; the pals regiment, but thousands of my constituents have family who you might have gone to school with; and the pals connections with the regiments that they hold very who you know you can rely on when the going gets dear. Part of the thread that ties our regiments to our tough. community is threatened. That is the greatest ever description and explanation of why the regimental system works, and it cannot be Pete Wishart: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I put any clearer than that. That day, back in 2005, was cannot remember the number of veterans we have in very poignant. I remember seeing brave serving soldiers Scotland, but it was revealed recently—somewhere in crying because it was the end of the Black Watch as an the region of 80,000. There are certainly substantial existing regiment. numbers—all of them determined to protect their former I have never been a soldier and neither has the ancient regiments, and quite right too. He is right: the Minister. The most dangerous thing that I have ever regiments bring history, tradition and culture into the faced was a sea of excitable fans when I was a rock new regiment, and that must be worth maintaining. musician. Listening to the testament of former soldiers and seeing what they have been through is a very Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Would the important lesson. hon. Gentleman agree that it is also about national I do not need to tell the Minister that these suggestions identity? In Wales, we face potentially losing the 1st The and proposals have been met with the most incredible Queen’s Dragoon Guards, which recruits, almost uniformly, hostility and opposition. According to The Sunday from Wales and the borders. A regiment’s national Times, even the Prime Minister is opposed to them. identity is also important in giving a coherent community What we need to hear from the Minister today is and regional identity. absolute clarification on the matter. When the hon. 129WH Scottish-recruited Units23 MAY 2012 Scottish-recruited Units 130WH

[Pete Wishart] Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): My hon. Friend mentions the defence footprint. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) raised a He will be aware that Scotland contributes about £3.3 billion question in the House, all we got was total equivocation to the defence pot, but only gets back about £2 billion from the Prime Minister. We need a clear answer. When of the spend. the Minister gets to his feet, he must say without any equivocation that regimental names will continue to Pete Wishart: Those are the points that I want to exist within the Royal Regiment of Scotland and that make. Securing this regimental identity is important, there will be no diminishing of the golden thread. In but so too are the boots on the ground. There is this fact, he could say, “We value the golden thread; it is multi-billion pound spending gap between what the important and instead of diminishing it, we will enhance taxpayers in Scotland contribute to the Ministry of and develop it.” Defence and what is actually spent on defence in Scotland. I want the Minister to respond to some of this. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I thank the All we have left are four regiments in the British hon. Gentleman for giving way and congratulate him Army from the Scotland units. We have the Royal on securing this debate. I am also proud to serve under Regiment of Scotland with its five regular battalions your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. Regarding the Black and two territorial battalions. There are the Royal Scots Watch, my mother and sister are today attending a Dragoon Guards, Scotland’s only remaining cavalry ceremony at the Black Watch memorial at Powrie Brae, regiment, the Scots Guards and the 19th Regiment just outside Dundee. The hon. Gentleman mentions the Royal Artillery, the Highland Gunners. We lost the 40th British regimental system—and he did say “British”—but Regiment Royal Artillery, the Lowland Gunners, a few given his party’s aspirations, would a Black Watch still weeks ago. We now have only 11,000 service personnel exist? in the Scottish infantry, which is fewer than in Ireland. The Government should be ashamed of that. Pete Wishart: Without any shadow of a doubt it Moreover, we have seen a further 600 jobs cut in would continue to exist. We have a firm, clear commitment Scotland. We were grateful to the then Defence Secretary, that the existing battalions will be not only maintained the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), but developed. [Interruption.] If it is an independent for conceding to the Scottish Affairs Committee that Scotland, the battalions are unlikely to be British, but between 2000 and 2010, the total reduction in service they will be maintained and continued. jobs in the UK was 11.6%, and that the reduction in Scotland was a massive 27.9%. That disproportionate Mrs Moon rose— cut is incredible. It is equivalent to 10,500 defence jobs and a £5.6 billion underspend in Scotland. Pete Wishart: I have very little time, so I will take a Only four of the 148 major regular Army units are quick intervention. based in Scotland. There is massive under-representation not only in unit numbers but in Army capabilities. At present, there are no regular artillery units, no regular Mrs Moon: Everything the hon. Gentleman has said signals units, no regular logistics units, no regular in relation to the golden thread applies also in Wales. engineering units, no intelligence or special forces and There have been suggestions that a political decision little or no presence from combat services. will be made not to remove the Scottish regiments for On top of that, we have the ridiculous situation, fear of influencing the devolution debate. The reverberations outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan of that in Wales would be tremendous. Some 9% of the an Iar (Mr MacNeil), in which we contribute some British Army are recruited in Wales from 3% of the £3.3 billion to the defence pot and only secure back population. I am talking about some 10,000 people. £2 billion in return. There is structural multi-billion-pound defence underspend in Scotland, disproportionate base Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her closures and disproportionate cuts to service personnel intervention. It is good to see that the cause of Scottish and to Scottish regiments and battalions. independence is securing support and could have an As all that is happening, we learn that the MOD has influence on the recruitment of units in Wales. given the go-ahead to spend £350 million on designs for I hope the Minister will clarify some matters for us the next generation of Trident. Talk about skewed today, because that is the intention of this debate. It is priorities. Spending £350 million on a weapon of mass unfortunate that the Secretary of State himself is not destruction that will never be used while the regular here today, but I appreciate and respect the fact that we units are being undermined, diminished and under- have the Minister here. In even the darkest days of the resourced shows us everything about the Government’s amalgamation debates of 2004, Geoff Hoon always priorities. turned up. He always took the flak and got incredible The Scottish people will have a choice to make. They respect for that. We really needed to have the Secretary can continue to go down this particular road of underspend of State here today to address our points unequivocally and of diminishing the Scottish Army footprint and and end this damaging uncertainty. resource, or they can decide that these decisions can be There has been a suggestion, which has a degree of made in Scotland—by the Scottish people, for the Scottish credibility, that this debate on our names and badges is people. That is the choice they will be presented with in a smokescreen and masks the Government’s true intention, 2014 when we have the independence referendum. I am which is to get on with the job of brutally decimating absolutely certain and confident that when they are the Scottish defence footprint. presented with information such as this, with the run-down 131WH Scottish-recruited Units23 MAY 2012 Scottish-recruited Units 132WH of our regimental units and resources, the Scottish working on that basis, I will give them an update as people will make the right choice and we will determine soon as I can, when the Army restructuring work nears these issues in our own country. a conclusion. As I say, we are working towards Future Force 2020 4.17 pm as our defined end-point. That process includes the statement from last July and the more recent statements The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey): I made by the current Defence Secretary. Specifically, we completely understand the concern and interest that are planning to make a progressive adjustment during has led the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire the remainder of this decade to the balance between (Pete Wishart) to seek this debate, and I commend him regulars and reserves in the Army. By 2020, we envisage on doing so. Necessarily, the answers that I am able to a total Army force of about 120,000 troops, made up of give to some of his questions will be only tentative 82,000 regulars and 30,000 trained reservists, with a because decisions in respect of the future structure of margin for 8,000 reservists in training. As we withdraw the Army have not yet been taken. Let me set out the from combat operations in Afghanistan, that shift offers national security context in which those decisions will a major opportunity to reconfigure the Army in a way be taken. that will maximise adaptability and flexibility for the All Members present will agree that it is the first duty future. The Army has been undertaking a major study— of any Government to ensure the security of the country, Army 2020—to determine how we will achieve these and that requires decisions to be based on a realistic changes, and we will announce to the House the outcome assessment of a number of factors in the short and long of that study as soon as decisions have been taken. term. We live in an increasingly uncertain world with The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire complex and unpredictable threats, so our armed forces, rightly paid a warm and full tribute to the achievements of necessity, must be flexible and adaptable into the and historic heritage of the famous Scottish regiments. future. We must also accept that the decisions about I am sure that many hon. Members in Westminster Hall defence that have been made since the general election today who represent areas with a serious military footprint must start from the position of clearing up the economic know only too well the pride that local populations take legacy that we inherited. That is a strategic imperative, in such glorious histories. I add my own tributes to the because it is the only way we will be able to afford to Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, the Scots Guards, the project power of any sort, to protect our national Royal Regiment of Scotland in its current configuration, security and to ensure that our troops have the equipment and indeed to the Highland Gunners and the Lowland they need. The strategic defence and security review Gunners, and to their personnel who have deployed on addressed the balance between our national policy ambition, operations in recent years. We all owe a great deal to the available resources and real-world commitments. It did members of our armed forces; we owe a great deal to so by making reference to the national security strategy, those who hail from Scotland, just as we do to those which set out the principal risks to our security, and to who hail from England, Wales, Northern Ireland and, the national security tasks, which we need to fulfil. indeed, from across the Commonwealth. I pay tribute to their courage, commitment and professionalism. Implementing the SDSR was always going to be an ongoing process and not a single event. We are now Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): In 2006, I visited working through the programme to ensure that it is fit America and met General David Petraeus. I believe that to support the capabilities required by Future Force he was at that time the supreme commander of the 2020. We are going through a process of rapid change, allied forces in Iraq. He was certainly an authority on but we have identified clearly to the public—throughout the history of the Black Watch and very much an the UK, including in Scotland—our strategic aiming-point admirer of the regiment. Does the Minister agree—I and what we believe our future force requirement will hope he does—that names such as the Black Watch and be in 2020. regalia such as the red hackle should remain within the British Army? As General Petraeus said to me, the Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): American forces were very envious of the fact that I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North British regiments and battalions had such names and Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing this debate. Regarding regalia. the decisions to which he has just referred, the Minister will understand the great anxiety felt in Fife, around the Nick Harvey: Let me say that I fully recognise—as do Leuchars and Caledonia bases, about whether the British the Government—the power of that heritage, and the Army will be arriving and the Royal Air Force will be strength of the identity that derives from cap badges, leaving. Although I appreciate that he is keen to get that and to think otherwise is to completely misunderstand decision correct, will he give serious consideration to the piece of work that is being carried out. I will come updating the communities concerned on when the decision specifically to one of the questions that the hon. Member about the Army and the Air Force at the Leuchars and for Perth and North Perthshire put to me. What we are Caledonia bases will be taken? looking at is the future structure of the Army. If it serves to give him any reassurance, I will say that there is no intention as part of that work on Army restructuring Nick Harvey: I understand the point that the hon. to remove from the battalions of the Royal Regiment of Gentleman is making. Of course, there was a statement Scotland the historic names that form such an important to the House last July, but some of the announcements part of their heritage. made that day have been, in a sense, superseded by the current review of Army structures. To the extent that I Pete Wishart: I am very grateful to the Minister for am able to communicate with the communities that that, because it is a very important statement. Is there were named in last year’s statement and that are therefore anybody within the Royal Regiment of Scotland or 133WH Scottish-recruited Units23 MAY 2012 Scottish-recruited Units 134WH

[Pete Wishart] recruiting pattern; that has always been an important part of the British Army and it will continue to be in the within the British Army who is agitating to have such future. We recognise that factor and it will inform the types of insignia—the names and the cap badges— decisions that are taken. Indeed, we will also take removed? Is there anybody who is asking for that and, if account of previous decisions on mergers and deletions, so, who are they? so that we can ensure that there is a fair solution across the generations, as well as between the different branches Nick Harvey: I am not aware of anybody agitating to and different geographical lay-down of the Army. Our that end. Removing such insignia does not form part of aim is to sustain maximum optimal capability. There the restructuring work; it is not one of the things that are issues about basing. We cannot go to a final basing we are considering. We have a great respect for these blueprint yet; that blueprint will follow hot on the heels issues of historical heritage. In the Royal Regiment of of the current piece of restructuring work that I have Scotland in particular, the historic names bring with described. them a great tradition that is respected around the Although the focus of this debate has been on Scottish world, and not only in Scotland or the rest of the UK. I Army units, it is important that we take a holistic view. am very sympathetic to the points about heritage that The Government are committed to the defence of the the hon. Gentleman has made in this debate. United Kingdom and each nation and region within it. In addition to its Army regiments, Scotland has one of Mrs Moon: As the Minister has given that assurance, our three naval bases, which in the future will be home can we be equally assured that any decision about Army to all our submarines. One of the three main RAF restructuring will not be based on the politics of the rest operating bases will be in Scotland. Scotland is also the of the UK’s relationship with Scotland and any future home of Quick Reaction Alert North. As was made plans regarding devolution? The Sunday Times ran an clear last summer, there will also be an Army brigade in article at the weekend suggesting that the Prime Minister Scotland, along with thousands of reserves and cadets. had intervened to say that Scottish regiments must be We have set out a clear vision for the armed forces protected and that perhaps the Welsh regiments could across the United Kingdom, with a very significant be looked at instead. Can I have an assurance from the footprint in Scotland, as part of a realistic and well Minister that no political interference is coming from thought-out national security strategy. No. 10 to protect Scottish regiments because of a fear The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire of devolution? made the point that Scottish voters will be invited at some point in the future to take a decision about Nick Harvey: The hon. Lady has been involved in Scotland’s status. They have a clear understanding of politics too long to believe what she reads in Sunday where the UK Government are steering defence in newspapers. This restructuring is a piece of work that is Scotland. They have yet to gain any such understanding being undertaken by the Army, and the Army will put of where those who advocate independence for Scotland its proposals forward when its review is complete. Reducing are trying to get Scottish defences to, and that will be an the size of the Regular Army from 102,000 to 82,000 will absolute necessity to inform a realistic and balanced inevitably mean a reduction in the overall number of debate. units that are available, and a number of critical criteria The armed forces are at the core of the UK’s security. will inform the decisions about which units will be They make a unique and vital contribution, for which affected. I hope all of us—whatever part of the UK we come We must maintain the right balance across different from—are grateful. We will make the decisions that I capabilities—the Royal Armoured Corps, the infantry have talked about—decisions to ensure that the armed structure and the roles that different units will perform. forces are sustainable for the future—in the interests of We must also balance geographically because of the everybody in Scotland and across the UK as a whole. 135WH 23 MAY 2012 Petrol and Diesel 136WH

Petrol and Diesel Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): May I propose that my hon. Friend add a fourth suggestion to the list, that we consider a proper price stabilisation 4.30 pm mechanism, rather than a fuel duty one? At the moment, Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): It is unusual to have the tax can go up, but it never comes down. this many Members present for a 30-minute debate. If everyone wants to make an intervention, Mr Halfon Robert Halfon: As so often, my hon. Friend has hit will not be able to speak. The Economic Secretary will the nail on the head. We need a fair fuel stabiliser that have 10 minutes to wind up, and I ask Members to keep looks at prices at the pump, so that when the international interventions to a minimum because Mr Halfon probably oil price goes up tax at the pump goes down. That really has a 20-minute speech. would be a fair fuel stabiliser.

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): It is a pleasure to Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I support my hon. serve under your chairmanship, Madam Chairman, Friend’s campaign. I represent the least densely populated and I appreciate what you have said. I have cut my constituency in England. In Northumberland, fuel is a speech down to allow for more interventions. The number key issue, as I am sure it is everywhere else. I suggest of people here shows just how important the issue is, that there should be an Office of Fair Trading examination, and I thank Members from both sides of the House for much like those we have carried out so successfully in coming along. remote communities into other forms of heating and I want to start by knocking something on the head. I other oil. welcome, as I am sure everyone here does, the fact that in the past few weeks petrol prices have come down a Robert Halfon: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. few pence, but families in my constituency still spend That matter is an important part of my argument. more on petrol than on food. The price of petrol is at an On the August rise, the Automobile Association says historic, all-time high. In Harlow, it costs more than that a 3p rise in petrol prices will switch £1.8 million a 140p a litre, and that hits the poor twice as hard as the day out of the economy and into petrol costs, draining rich. People say that the price has come down, but it is a money away from high streets. At the same time, a bit like a burglar taking £100 out of your pocket and report by the respected Centre for Economics and Business giving you £5 back. Research shows that cutting duty by 2.5p would create 175,000 new jobs. The RAC Foundation and the Institute Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) for Fiscal Studies—both very respected—show that revenues (SNP): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that when a few from motoring taxes are set to collapse by between pence comes off the price of a litre and the foot comes £10 billion and £13 billion a year over the next decade, off the neck of the economy and of hard-working as people are driven off the roads by economising on families, it is the wrong time for the Government to put fuel. That is why I urge the Government to think again. that foot back again and squeeze the life blood out of the economy? Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the very good campaign that he has Robert Halfon: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. carried out on this issue. We all appreciate it. With our He supported me in the debate last year in which we fuel costs rising and it costing more to fill a car or heat a managed to get the Government to postpone the January home than to buy groceries, does the hon. Gentleman tax rise, and he will see in my remarks that I do not feel that now is the time for a windfall tax on the oil disagree with him. companies that are making exorbitant profits? Sir Terry Leahy of Tesco has said: “Filling up the family car has gone up 70% in two years, Robert Halfon: Yes, and I thank the hon. Gentleman causing what was a steady recovery to go sideways.” for his incredible support all through this argument. I I and most fair-minded people recognise that the recognise that there is no magic money tree, so to cut Government have made significant progress, abolishing prices at the pump the Government need seriously to the previous Government’s fuel duty escalator, scrapping consider another windfall tax on the oil companies, not the planned hikes in 2011 plus a 1p cut in duty, with a necessarily on North sea production but on the companies partial fuel stabiliser and the freeze in fuel duty that I as a whole. mentioned, in January this year. I firmly believe that the Not enough emphasis is put on my second point Chancellor shows an understanding of the matter, and which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham that the Government must get credit where they deserve (Guy Opperman) says, is that we need competitiveness it, but we face considerable problems. in the oil market. Not only the Government, but businesses The first problem is the planned tax rise in August, and the oil companies have a responsibility. There are which I ask the Government to reconsider. Secondly, we four complaints. The first is that pump prices are always need a serious inquiry into the lack of competitiveness quick to rise, but that it feels like a court order is needed in the oil market, and possibly even a windfall tax on oil to get them down. Evidence shows that from May to firms, to cut prices. Thirdly, there is the problem of the August 2011, oil prices fell by about 5.5%, adjusting for banks speculating on the price of oil. exchange rates, but petrol and diesel prices stayed high, falling by only 1.5%. Several hon. Members rose— The second complaint—the debate comes in the wake of this—is about the OFT’s interim decision not to Robert Halfon: I give way to my hon. Friend, the investigate the UK oil market, despite a dossier of Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris). evidence from Brian Madderson, who represents the 137WH Petrol and Diesel23 MAY 2012 Petrol and Diesel 138WH

[Robert Halfon] Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way? UK’s independent forecourts, which shows that British motorists are being fleeced and that oil firms active in Robert Halfon: I will in a minute. Because of where the UK are under formal investigation by the Federal they are sitting, I am concerned that two of my colleagues, Cartel Office in Germany as a result of similar complaints. including my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish), have joined the other side—I Several hon. Members rose— hope not. The Office of Fair Trading has not investigated the UK oil market since 1998, despite the fact that Robert Halfon: I shall give way to my hon. Friend the British petrol and diesel prices are among the highest in Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and then to my hon. Europe, so we need a proper investigation. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis). Neil Parish: My hon. Friend makes a great case for a reduction in petrol and diesel prices. Oil companies, I Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate believe, take far too much. When crude oil prices go up, my hon. Friend on an excellent campaign. Does he they immediately put up their prices, but when the agree with my constituents who live in the most rural crude prices come down they take for ever to bring their areas that they face an additional penalty from paying own down. We need a thorough investigation into the much higher prices—many pence different even from oil companies. those at garages just a few miles away? Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is exactly right, which Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is exactly right, and I is why I am arguing that the Government should force am grateful for her support. People in rural areas face the Office of Fair Trading to launch an investigation fuel deserts, in essence, because of the uncompetitive into the uncompetitive nature of oil companies. nature of the oil industry. People have to travel further, The third issue is the problem of local variation in particularly in rural areas, to deal with the cost of fuel. petrol prices, especially in rural areas and towns such as mine. In Harlow, fuel is always 4p to 5p more expensive Several hon. Members rose— than it is a couple of miles down the road. I have complained to the OFT. Its letter was a classic Sir Robert Halfon: I promised my hon. Friend the Member Humphrey reply, giving a lot of sympathy and a whole for Great Yarmouth that I would allow him to intervene. load of reasons why nothing could be done. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for giving way so generously, in an excellent Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I thank my hon. debate. Rural areas such as Norfolk are affected, but Friend for giving way, and I pay tribute to his work on does he agree that it is not just about rural areas? Places this campaign. On local areas and price differences, that focus heavily on the tourism industry, such as does he not agree that any OFT investigation should Great Yarmouth and other coastal towns, are adversely consider the lack of filling stations? Due to the huge affected if fewer people are able to afford to travel there, reduction in their numbers over the past 15 or 20 years, which has a knock-on effect on our economy. there is a distinct lack of price competition in local areas. Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is exactly right, and that is why I am proposing some of these things today. Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend has read my mind—

Several hon. Members rose— Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): He has read your speech. Robert Halfon: I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire Robert Halfon: I was about to come to fuel deserts. (Simon Hart) and then I will carry on a bit more. Britain has gone from 20,000 forecourts in 1990 to 8,500 today, a drop of nearly 60%, turning huge areas Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South of the UK into fuel deserts where motorists must drive Pembrokeshire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that to fill up. There are examples in Cornwall, where a a hidden consequence of all this is to be found in the hypermarket sold fuel at below cost price until all the voluntary sector? People who do things such as meals other petrol stations went bust, after which its prices on wheels and those who are voluntary carers—the rose considerably. pillars of our society—are beginning to wonder whether it is all worth while. Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): From the Labour Benches, I, too, offer support to the hon. Robert Halfon: I am a passionate believer in the big Gentleman’s campaign. Earlier, I went to a petrol price society because it is about people power, social capital comparison site. Would it surprise the hon. Gentleman and helping social entrepreneurs, and the price of petrol to know that although the situation is bad in Harlow, it and diesel stops people in their charitable work and is even worse in Oxford? He will enjoy the support of harms communities. My hon. Friend makes a powerful my constituents in winning his campaign. point. This month, Germany decided to initiate fuel price regulation and to limit price rises. Austria implemented Robert Halfon: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. similar measures last year, and the AA has noted their The next time I get my many e-mails from Harlow impact in keeping prices down. residents, I will pass them on to him so he can help me 139WH Petrol and Diesel23 MAY 2012 Petrol and Diesel 140WH to respond. I am grateful for his support. It shows the Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): Before the hon. Minister that this is an all-party campaign, because the Gentleman moves off rurality, can I make the issue issue affects everybody. real? A 10p difference per litre is nearly 50p a gallon or £5 a tank. For someone commuting and filling their Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): As always, my tank twice a week, that is hundreds of pounds a year. I hon. Friend makes a powerful case. The point about the hope that he will take the opportunity to reinforce to price differential from area to area is particularly important the Minister that for ordinary working families who are in my constituency, where Immingham is a major centre struggling in this austerity period, that extra few hundred for the haulage industry. Increased haulage prices trickle pounds makes a huge difference. down into the economy generally. Does he agree that it is particularly important that any investigation take Robert Halfon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his note of the impact on haulage businesses? remarks. As I will say in my conclusion, statistics bear out that motorists in my constituency on average earnings pay one tenth of their income just filling up the family Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is completely right. car. The Government say that people face fuel poverty if Before I answer that, I should say that although I have they spend one tenth of their income on fuel. People are received a lot of credit for working on the fuel campaign forced to use their cars, and in my constituency—and, I in Parliament, he is deputy chair of FairFuelUK and am sure, elsewhere—they are paying one tenth of their has done an enormous amount of work to help me income to fill up the family car. behind the scenes. I must give credit where it is due. Haulage firms all over the country are closing down. I will make a brief point about the banks; I am nearly Transport firms are closing. done. Last year, western Governments tried to release oil to cut pump prices, but banks bought up at least £1.6 billion of it. There is evidence that a lot of it was Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) stored in silos at sea rather than entering the market, (Con): Southampton is in close proximity to Portsmouth keeping prices high. America is introducing tough new ferry port. One big challenge faced by hauliers in the penalties for market manipulation. I urge the Government south-east is easy access to the continent and European to do the same in Britain. If Governments around the lorry drivers coming over with much cheaper tanks of world do the right thing and release oil stocks, we fuel. cannot allow banks to buy it up, keep it at sea and hurt the struggling motorist. Robert Halfon: Again, we need to consider that, as What is to be done? I am a realist. I do not believe in well as considering the charging of foreign lorries that “Charge of the Light Brigade” politics; I much prefer come here. I recognise that the Government have made the battle of Agincourt. I accept that we do not have a some progress, but those lorries must be charged a lot magic money tree, but the big oil companies are not more. The playing field is not level. Why should our struggling. In the first quarter of this year, Shell had people suffer because foreign lorries have an unfair profits of $7.6 billion, BP $5.9 billion and Exxon Mobil competitive advantage? $9.4 billion. It is a similar story at Chevron and ConocoPhillips. At the end of 2011, those firms had Andrew Bingham: I thank my hon. Friend for giving $58 billion in cash reserves. In order to find the money way so generously every three or four words. We are all to stop price rises and help hard-pressed motorists, the taking over his speech. I have two points. Does he agree Government could consider a windfall tax to fund that not only is fuel dear in rural areas, but rurality cheaper petrol at the pumps. A windfall tax was imposed makes it far more necessary to have a car, so the impact before, but on North sea oil in particular. I am asking of fuel prices is far greater there? Also, in High Peak, we the Government to consider a windfall tax on oil companies produce the finest limestone in the world, which is more in general. often than not transported by road, meaning more We must remember that motorists are not a lobby costs. group. They are mums driving to school, children on buses and pensioners hit by inflation. When the cost of Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is completely right. road haulage rises, the price of everything else rises too. My argument has always been that it is not whether people can afford to have a car—we have a great car Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): economy—but whether they can afford not to. Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I am grateful Robert Halfon: Very quickly, but this is the last to my hon. Friend for securing this debate. We worry intervention. about the cost of petrol and diesel, particularly on the island, where prices are higher than everywhere but the Andrew Bridgen: I thank my hon. Friend for giving most extreme places such as the Isles of Scilly, the me this opportunity. To declare an interest, I should say Hebrides and the northern islands. Does my hon. Friend that I am a qualified transport manager and have run a acknowledge the additional cost of transporting fuel to considerable haulage fleet. One major anomaly in the such places? haulage industry is that we compete against foreign competition, but diesel is priced considerably higher Robert Halfon: The Minister will have heard what my than petrol in the UK, whereas on the continent it is hon. Friend says. I am sure that the fact that so many considerably cheaper. Perhaps we could explain that people are here today making similar points will not be anomaly. It is extremely important in my constituency, lost on the ears of a Minister who we know listens. because more than one third of private sector jobs there 141WH Petrol and Diesel23 MAY 2012 Petrol and Diesel 142WH

[Andrew Bridgen] in 2013 and 2014. None of those planned increases were subject to either oil price or pump price movements, are in distribution or are distribution-related. As we unlike the fair fuel stabiliser that we have introduced. have no railway stations in my constituency, a vehicle is We know that high oil prices are causing real difficulties not a luxury; it is essential. in ensuring that motoring remains affordable. It is important to remember that pump prices are affected both by Robert Halfon: I agree entirely. We must look at the world oil prices and by duty rates, as I know all Members price of diesel too, because it has risen hugely. Prices are present will understand. It is important that a responsible much higher. People often quote unleaded petrol prices Government are able to consider their actions and take but forget to quote for diesel. them in that context. Although the Government cannot control world oil prices, they can control duty rates, As we have agreed, petrol prices are crushing businesses which is what this Government have done. We have and families and creating a poverty trap, and evidence acted by providing £4.5 billion-worth of relief on the from the London School of Economics and elsewhere burden for motorists between 2011 and 2013. Indeed, shows that they are adding to Britain’s dole queues. As I VAT and fuel duty last rose in January 2011. have said, I believe that the issue is not whether people can afford a car, but whether they can afford not to. I Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The Minister urge the Minister to reconsider the August tax rise, is right to say that the Government cannot control oil launch a tough investigation into the oil market through prices, but they can stop the European Commission the OFT and elsewhere and consider a windfall tax to from attempting to frustrate the development of the cut prices at the pumps. Canadian oil sands, which has the potential to offer Before I end, I should say that we are here today not billions of barrels of oil to the US market, which will just because of MPs representing their constituencies help bring prices down. but because of the work of FairFuelUK, which has done much to bring the issue to the public’s attention, Miss Smith: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the especially through The Sun newspaper’s “Keep It Down” complexity of the global market and its relevance to campaign, which has done an enormous amount to this debate. I suspect that there is a much broader highlight it. Both The Sun and FairFuelUK have debate to be had about where we might look for energy campaigned tirelessly. security and breadth of supply in the future, but he is We face a petrol crisis in our tax system, our oil right to raise that point. companies and our banks. Everyone seems to benefit On the impact of what the Government have been except hard-pressed motorists in Harlow and the millions able to do, duty at the pump has been frozen for of hard-working people throughout our country who 16 months and pump prices are now 10p lower thanks have no choice but to drive their cars. to this Government’s actions. To put that into pounds, as other hon. Members have endeavoured to do in their contributions, a typical Ford Focus driver will be 4.49 pm £144 better off as a result of those actions, and a haulier will benefit by £4,400 on average. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith): I sincerely congratulate my hon. Friend the I understand why the August duty increase is one of Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing this the main points that has been raised. I am well aware debate. We are all aware of the passion with which he of the burden caused by the rise in the international oil and other Members who have spoken campaign. So price and the concern it creates for businesses and many have contributed to this discussion that I will families. This is, after all, a time of real uncertainty and struggle to name them all, but I shall endeavour to instability from which no country can be immune. Britain address the breadth of the debate. has been comparatively stable in recent weeks. Only yesterday, the International Monetary Fund said that I shall start by saying, as my hon. Friend did, that our approach is right and that we have earned Britain even though average pump prices have fallen by about credibility again in our economy. Families and businesses 6.5p over the past month, there is little doubt that the benefit from that earned credibility, through lower interest price of petrol and diesel remains a very difficult issue rates. and a concern to many families and businesses throughout Calls for the August increase to be scrapped raise an the country. important question, because we would need to consider Since we came to office, the Government have listened how to replace the £1.5 billion it would cost. That to those motorists and the many others who are concerned money would need to come from higher taxes or lower about high pump prices. Motoring is an essential part spending elsewhere. of everyday life for many households and businesses. The Centre for Economics and Business Research Fuel costs affect us all in various ways, and the Government report that has been cited today has a couple of weaknesses. recognise that the rising price of motoring fuel is a Its analysis is not straightforward. For example, it makes significant part of day-to-day spending. no mention of the relationship between oil prices and I will give a little historical context by noting that in pump prices. It does not recognise the range of factors 2009 the previous Government introduced a fuel duty that go into pump prices. As such, its proposed fuel escalator, which was a time bomb that involved planning duty cuts could be totally offset by increased oil prices, for seven fuel duty increases. That could have resulted in which means that there may not be any reallocation of average pump prices being a whole 10p per litre higher spending elsewhere in the economy. It is important to than they are at present. The previous Government place that point about this frequently cited report on would then have introduced further above-inflation increases the record. We really need to consider the volatility of 143WH Petrol and Diesel23 MAY 2012 Petrol and Diesel 144WH global oil prices. Any Government action would have to Mr MacNeil: I want to put it on the record that the be taken against that backdrop. It is not certain that pilot scheme seems to be working well. Indeed, I hope cutting fuel duty would have a positive effect on families that it will be rolled out further and be made a permanent or businesses. scheme in the future. Instead, the Government have taken action to help in areas in which we can be sure of a positive impact: Miss Smith: I note the hon. Gentleman’s views and supporting businesses through cuts in corporation tax am grateful for his support. and helping families through increases in the personal Members have also raised the issue of banks speculating allowance threshold, which means pounds back in the on the price of oil and potential market manipulation pocket. affecting oil price. The UK, along with other European Union members, is currently negotiating on revised Stewart Hosie: On the CEBR report, the Minister is market manipulation rules for commodity markets, which right that there are multiple inputs into the pump price, the UK welcomes. but surely she is not saying that that is a reason for In conclusion, we have recognised the impact that doing nothing. high pump prices are having on motorists, families and businesses. The previous Government, I am sad to say, had no credible plan to deal with the debts that they Miss Smith: The hon. Gentleman will have heard me created and no creditable plan to support motorists. We explain over the past few minutes that the Government have listened and responded during our time in office to have done something and that there are many other date. We have cut fuel duty and scrapped their fuel duty ways in which this Government need to consider what escalator. We have ensured that there will be just one they do through the economy. inflation-only increase in fuel duty this year. We will On the recent Royal Automobile Club report, which have kept fuel duty frozen for 16 months and we will has also been raised today and in which my hon. Friend continue to support motorists with our fair fuel stabiliser. the Member for Harlow is interested, the Government The Government have a fair and credible plan to support announced in the Budget that they will consider whether motorists. vehicle excise duty should be reformed to support the I shall end on this final point. We seek to support sustainability of public finances and to reflect the motorists in their daily role not only as drivers—I have improvements in vehicle fuel efficiency. The Government outlined a few ways in which we have endeavoured to do will, of course, seek the views of motoring groups that—but, in the words of my hon. Friend the Member before taking any decisions. for Harlow, as mums, pensioners and all the other daily My hon. Friend also asked questions about the roles that they have to undertake. We as a Government competitiveness of the oil market. As I think he knows, and as responsible parliamentarians need to consider the Office of Fair Trading is undertaking research on the breadth of daily roles undertaken by the public, pump prices on the Scottish islands, which are no doubt whether they be workers benefiting from the personal of interest to the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart allowance, mortgage holders benefiting from the low Hosie). That work will help inform what further action, interest rates that we have earned in this country, or, if any, may be appropriate elsewhere in the UK. crucially, taxpayers who know that we must deal with Several Members have asked whether other island our debts and spend public money wisely. and mainland areas could be included in the rural fuel Question put and agreed to. rebate pilot scheme. It is a pilot scheme and nothing beyond its boundaries has been ruled in or out, but I 4.59 pm have listened to what Members have had to say. Sitting adjourned.

65WS Written Ministerial Statements23 MAY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS Written Ministerial TREASURY Statements ECOFIN

Wednesday 23 May 2012 The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Brussels on 15 May 2012. Ministers discussed the following items: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Revised Capital Requirements Rules (CRD IV) The presidency presented a proposal for a general UK Space Agency (Performance Targets) approach on the CRD IV directive and regulation, which was followed by a ministerial discussion. Following substantial changes made to the proposal during The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David negotiations at the 2nd May ECOFIN and a critical Willetts): I have tasked the UK Space Agency to provide revision in the run up to this ECOFIN, I was able to policy support to Ministers on civil space issues and to join the rest of the Council in agreeing the presidency lead a civil space programme which delivers maximum proposal. These changes will ensure that: the Government economic, scientific, and policy benefits for the UK. will be able to implement the recommendations of the I have set the UK Space Agency the following key Vickers review in full; that Europe as a whole will be targets for 2012-13: able to implement Basel III; and that the Government 1. To advise BIS on affordable options for UK participation will have the necessary freedom to carry out our macro- in the ESA in readiness for the ESA Ministerial planned for prudential policy objectives. November 2012, setting out the advantages and disadvantages The presidency will now start negotiations with the of the options. European Parliament, on the basis of the Council’s 2. To ensure the ESA programme brings benefit to UK general approach. The aim is to reach agreement on the industry, and the research base. texts at first reading, if possible by June, as requested by 3. To implement the proposal for the £21 million investment the European Council in March. in the low-cost constellation of operational small radar satellites (NovaSAR). Negotiating Mandate for Savings Taxation Agreements 4. To work with industry on amendments to reduce burdens with third countries placed on satellite operators, and based on the public The presidency introduced a recommendation for a consultation, set out a timeline to implement agreed proposals Council decision to adopt the mandate for the Commission for change to the Outer Space Act. to negotiate amended savings agreements with five third 5. To improve performance of the agency by implementing countries. During the discussion Luxembourg and Austria 2011-12 audit recommendations over the period 2012-13— were unable to agree to the proposed mandate and the 2014-15. presidency concluded that it would not be possible to Target measurement techniques: adopt the mandate at this meeting. Target 1—Decisions made on investment proposed by November 2012 Ageing Report 2012. This will need both BIS and HMT agreement. The presidency introduced proposed Council conclusions Target 2—Measured by the industrial return figures of ESA on the sustainability of public finances in the light of that reflect the work won by UK organisations against an the 2012 Ageing Report. After a brief ministerial discussion ideal of return coefficient of 1. the 2012 Ageing Report was endorsed and the conclusions Target 3—A decision on the grant will be by June 2012, were adopted by the Council. payment by March 2013, with the grant review open for the normal 5-year window. Fast Start Climate Finance Target 4—Consultation released in May 2012 and final plan The presidency introduced proposed Council conclusions by December 2012. to endorse the fast start finance report. The Commission Target 5—Improvement in agency performance will be reflected highlighted that, despite the difficult economic situation in audit reports in 2012-13 and 2013-14. and tight budgetary constraints, the EU was on track to meet its commitments and Ministers adopted the conclusions. CABINET OFFICE Draft General Budget for 2013 The Council took note of a presentation by the Commission of its draft for the EU’s general budget for State of the Estate 2011 2013 and held an exchange of views on the proposal. The UK intervened to make clear that the Commission’s proposed 6.8% increase was not realistic in the current The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster climate, with member states making great efforts to General (Mr Francis Maude): I have today laid before reduce deficits at home, and that the EU should focus Parliament, pursuant to section 86 of the Climate Change on improving the quality, rather than increasing the Act 2008, “The State of the Estate in 2011”. This report volume, of expenditure, reducing over-budgeting and provides an assessment of the efficiency and sustainability finding greater efficiencies. Our intervention was supported of the Government’s civil estate and records the progress by a number of other member states. The Council will that Government are making in this area. The report is now look to establish its position on the draft budget by published on an annual basis. the end of July. 67WS Written Ministerial Statements23 MAY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS

ECOFIN Breakfast of the tax arrangements of public sector appointees”; Ministers were updated over breakfast on the European we are today publishing this in the form of a consultation Commission’s spring forecasts. Ministers were also debriefed document on the taxation of controlling persons. on the euro group meeting of 14 May which discussed The consultation document is available on HMRC’s the economic situation in Spain and their three pronged website and copies have been placed in the Libraries of strategy being implemented to: tackle regional fiscal both Houses. deficits, implement structural reforms and reform the banking sector. The Greek delegation had also briefed euro area member states on the political situation in Greece. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Ministers also discussed the forthcoming election of a new president for the EBRD and were updated on Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council the process that would be followed for the election on 18 May. Finally Ministers were updated by the EFC president The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, on the progress being made in reducing European seats Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): A on the IMF Board by two, as agreed at the Seoul G20 meeting of the Education, Youth, Culture and Sport summit in 2010. Council was held in Brussels on 10 and 11 May. I European Investment Bank (EIB) Board of Governors represented the UK at the culture and audiovisual Meeting sections of the Council, together with Fiona Hyslop, the Scottish Minister for Culture and External Affairs. The EIB board of governors met prior to ECOFIN. Shona Robison, the Scottish Minister for the In discussion, the president of the EIB noted that calls Commonwealth Games and Sport, represented the UK for growth orientated policies were becoming more for the sport section of the Council. frequent but, for the bank to increase its lending activity, it would have to increase its capital. It was also important Audiovisual to ensure the bank maintained its AAA rating. I intervened The Council adopted, without discussion, conclusions to stress the importance of maintaining the AAA rating on the digitisation and online accessibility of cultural and that this was critical to the organisation’s effectiveness. material and digital preservation. These conclusions However I was willing to consider the arguments for follow on from the conclusions on Europeana adopted supporting growth. I also stressed that any increase in by the Council in 2010 and respond to a Commission lending should have a better geographical balance recommendation on the digitisation and online accessibility throughout the EU. of cultural material and digital preservation which was Ministerial Dialogue with Candidate Countries adopted in 2011. They identify key issues for further progress in this field and invite the member states, the Ministers, over lunch, held an informal meeting with Commission and Europeana to take further measures their counterparts from the EU accession and candidate to ensure that progress in digitisation can be maintained. countries—Croatia, Turkey, the Former Yugoslav Republic The UK supported the adoption of these conclusions. of Macedonia, Montenegro, Iceland and Serbia—focusing on the candidate countries’ pre-accession economic Culture programmes for the 2012-14 period. The Council adopted a partial general approach on the proposal for a regulation establishing the Europe for Citizens programme for 2014-2020. This programme Enterprise Management Incentives will follow on from an existing EU programme, but with a new legal base of article 352 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. Under section 8 of The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David the European Union Act 2011, an Act of Parliament is Gauke): The Government announced in the Budget required before the UK can consent to EU legislation that the individual limit on qualifying EMI options will based on article 352. The UK therefore supported the be increased from £120,000 to £250,000. adoption of the partial general approach but I informed The Income Tax (Limits for Enterprise Management the Council that an Act of Parliament will be required. Incentives) Order 2012 (SI 2012 No. 1360), giving effect I also emphasised that in the current economic and to the increase was laid before the House of Commons financial climate we expect that the budget for the earlier today. The order will come into force on 16 June programme will be reduced from the level proposed by 2012 and apply to qualifying EMI options granted on the Commission. or after that date. The Council also adopted a decision designating Donostia-San Sebastián (Spain) and Wroclaw (Poland) as the European Capitals of Culture for 2016. Tax Policy Consultation Culture and Audiovisual The Council adopted a partial general approach on The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David the proposal for a regulation establishing the Creative Gauke): Budget 2012 announced that we would consult Europe programme for 2014-2020. This programme on requiring controlling persons who are integral to the will follow on from the current Culture, Media and running of an organisation to have PAYE and NICs Media Mundus programmes. The partial general approach deducted at source by the organisation by which they did not include the programme budget and the proposed are engaged. As referred to in the Chief Secretary’s oral new loan guarantee facility. The UK did not support statement earlier today and his review into “The Review the partial general approach, as it does not provide for 69WS Written Ministerial Statements23 MAY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 70WS selection decisions—that is, decisions about which projects the territory offering aid) are working well. On aid will be awarded EU funding under the programme—to intensity (i.e. the amount of aid available as a percentage be subject to member state scrutiny through the formal of the production budget) I expressed our concern that comitology arrangements. the proposed new limits would impact negatively on the However, I was able to welcome other aspects of the whole of Europe. In response, the Commission noted proposal, in particular recognition of the increasing that the public consultation on the draft communication, importance of the digital agenda and technological which concludes on 14 June, provided an opportunity innovation in culture and media, and the increased for member states and other interested parties to raise scope for new synergies and cross-sectoral initiatives. their concerns. The Commission did not intend to weaken the competitiveness of the European film industry. Ministers from other member states expressed broad support for the partial general approach. Most were The Commission briefly introduced the communication also broadly supportive of the loan guarantee facility as on a European strategy for a “Better Internet for Children” a means of improving access to finance for small and which was published on 3 May and stressed the need for medium-sized enterprises in the cultural and creative an EU-wide strategy to provide the same protection sectors. However, some raised questions and concerns opportunities for all children and to avoid fragmentation. about whether it should supplement or replace grant The Commission also introduced their first report on spending in the programme and about whether and how the application of Directive 2010/13/EU (the Audiovisual it would benefit smaller member states and organisations Media Services Directive) which was published on 7 May. and how it would be implemented in practice. For the The Commission stressed the importance of moving UK, I welcomed the opportunity to consider the issues towards a digital single market and explained that they relating to the loan guarantee facility in the light of have set up a media futures forum which is intended to developments in the negotiations on the multi-annual produce recommendations before the summer. financial framework. Sport The Council adopted conclusions on combating doping ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE in recreational sport. These conclusions refer to the European Union Work Plan for Sport for 2011-14 which highlight the fight against doping as a priority Committee on Radioactive Waste Management theme and established an expert group on anti-doping. They set out why doping in recreational sport is an important problem and support the extension of the The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate mandate of the expert group to collate best practices Change (Charles Hendry): In March I announced the and produce recommendations in this area by the end commencement of the triennial review of the Committee of 2013. The UK supported the adoption of these on Radioactive Waste Management (CoRWM). Today conclusions and they were adopted without debate. I am announcing the findings of that review, which I am pleased to say support the continuation of CoRWM as The Council also held a policy debate on future the most appropriate body to undertake the hugely challenges in the fight against doping including in important work of independently advising and scrutinising recreational sport. The UK recognised the important the Government’s managing radioactive waste safely role which the EU and its member states have to play in (MRWS) programme. the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) review of the world anti-doping code, noting that article 10 of the The review has also looked at the governance code (regarding the sanctioning of athletes) needs to be arrangements for CoRWM in line with guidance on amended and that the UK is pushing for tougher future good corporate governance set out by the Cabinet Office sanctions as part of the review process. The UK also set and makes some recommendations to improve the appraisal out its views on the issue of combating doping in of the committee chair and the training and development recreational sport and noted that the education of athletes, of committee members. particular younger athletes, is a key issue. The UK The final report of the triennial review of CoRWM observed that the educational work carried out by UK can be found at: http://mrws.decc.gov.uk and I have anti-doping at the recent school games was a good made available copies in the Libraries of both Houses. example of this. Any Other Business The German Minister introduced a paper on the FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE draft Commission communication on state aid for films and other audiovisual work. This paper was co-authored with the UK, France and Austria. The German Minister Consular Procedures commented that new criteria proposed in the Commission’s draft communication would impose important restrictions on the film industry in Europe and there was a risk that The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth large productions would begin to move away from Affairs (Mr William Hague): On 17 April I informed the Europe. In order to maintain Europe’s competitiveness, House that we would review our procedures for alerting the wording of the communication needed to be revised. Ministers to the death of British nationals abroad. I supported Germany’s comments and noted that the I can now inform the House that this review has been film tax credit has been a huge success and that current completed. While I am satisfied that, in the case of the territorialisation criteria (i.e. the obligation on producers death of Neil Heywood in China, consular staff followed to spend a specific part of their production budget in the guidance that was in place at the time, I have also 71WS Written Ministerial Statements23 MAY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 72WS concluded that more detailed guidance would help staff on broad proposals to implement the commitments to decide when to inform Ministers of deaths in future. I give patients and service users more choice and control have therefore asked that internal guidance for consular over their care and treatment and to make the goal of staff on the death of British nationals overseas be “no decision about me, without me” a reality. The views amended to ensure consideration is given to whether: of patients, the wider public, health care professionals (a) A need exists, or may arise later, for Ministers to take and the NHS were sought on how these plans might action with the foreign Government to ensure appropriate best be achieved. handling of the case (e.g. because of any uncertainty over The NHS Future Forum ran a listening exercise the cause of death); between April and May 2011. Its recommendations and (b) There is a high-level of pressure from the family to do the Government’s response to its report have been taken something different to established consular policy; into account when producing our detailed proposals. (c) Relevant ministerial travel or other engagements is planned, The final round of consultation will run for eight especially if a visit is taking place or is pending, including consideration of the personal connections of people the weeks. Views from patients, the wider public, organisations, Minister might meet in the UK or overseas; health professionals and the NHS will again be sought. (d) Strong UK and local media interest is likely (especially if Copies of the response and the summary or responses a Minister is travelling); have been placed in the Library. Copies are available to (e) Significant parliamentary/constituency MP interest in hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords the case is likely; from the Printed Paper Office. (f) There is any credible rumour or speculation surrounding the case which would significantly affect the nature of the consular support the FCO would provide; LEADER OF THE HOUSE (g) There are any other risks if Ministers are not informed. If this revised guidance had been in place at the time of Neil Heywood’s death, I believe that Ministers would Explanatory Statements on Amendments (Pilot) have been informed earlier than 7 February. I have arranged for a copy of the revised consular The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George guidance to be placed in the Library of the House. Young): On 13 October 2011, the House agreed a resolution I should also like to use this opportunity to correct a noting the recommendations in paragraphs 31 and 32 factual reference in my written ministerial statement of of the Second Report of the Procedure Committee of 17 April 2012, Official Report, column 18WS concerning Session 2010-12 (HC 800) relating to explanatory statements the request by our ambassador in Beijing to the Chinese on amendments to Bills and inviting the Leader of the authorities to mount an investigation into the death of House and the Procedure Committee to put in place a Neil Heywood. The statement: pilot scheme to implement these proposals in respect of “Our ambassador repeated the request a week later to the one or more Bills before the end of the next session. Director-General for Europe” In my written ministerial statement of 10 May 2012 should have read relating to the Government’s legislative programme for “Our Ambassador repeated the request on 5 March to the 2012-13, I stated that I would write shortly to the Chair Director-General for Consular Affairs”. of the Procedure Committee with proposals for such a pilot in respect of two Bills to be introduced early in this session and that I hoped to make a further announcement soon. HEALTH I am pleased to tell the House that the Procedure Committee has agreed to my proposal that the pilot Consultation on Shared Decision Making should take place in respect of the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill and the Small Donations Bill. The Electoral Registration and Administration Bill The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): will have its Second Reading today and, if the programme Today I am publishing “Liberating the NHS: No decision motion is agreed to, will be committed to a Committee about me, without me—Further consultation on proposals of the whole House. The pilot in respect of the Bill will to secure shared decision-making”. This publication cover both Committee of the whole House stage and forms the Government’s response to the “Liberating the any proceedings on consideration. NHS: Greater choice and control” consultation. The Small Donations Bill will be published soon. The “Liberating the NHS: No decision about me, without pilot in respect of the Bill will cover both Public Bill me” sets out detailed proposals to implement the Committee Stage and Report stage. Government’s commitment to giving patients more say Guidelines for the tabling of explanatory statements over their care and treatment through more choice and were set out in paragraph 32 of the Second Report of control, informed by the consultation process. A further the Procedure Committee of Session 2010-12 (HC 800). shorter consultation is to be carried out. A small number Questions as to the implementation of the rules shall be of focused consultation questions have been included decided by the Chair of the Public Bill Committee, the which seek views on whether our proposals are realistic Chairman of Ways and Means in respect of Committee and achievable. of the whole House and the Speaker in respect of The accompanying document “Liberating the NHS: Report stage. Greater choice and control—A summary of responses” The Government intend to participate fully in the summarises the large number of comments received pilot. We plan to provide explanatory statements for all during the consultation period. The Government consulted Government amendments for Bills in the pilot at both 73WS Written Ministerial Statements23 MAY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 74WS

Committee and Report stage other than those amendments The business plan sets out the services the agency will where the legal effect is clear on the face of the amendment. deliver over the next four years and the resources they The Government will also do what they can to promote will have available. This is a refresh of the plan the awareness of, and encourage participation by others in, MCA first published last summer. The agency is also the pilot. The Procedure Committee will consider other publishing a set of performance indicators for 2012-13. steps which might be taken to the same end. Both documents will be available electronically on The Government believe that there would have to be the MCA’s website, and copies will be placed in the very significant and clearly definable benefits illustrated Libraries of both Houses. from this final pilot for any further progress to be made. Because there have already been several pilots for explanatory statements and only limited evidence available on the outcome of those pilots, I have proposed to the WORK AND PENSIONS Procedure Committee, and that Committee has agreed, that there should be a formal evaluation of the pilot, with an initial evaluation conducted by the House service Wage Incentives for Work Choice which the Procedure Committee will then use as the basis for a report on the outcome, together with evidence from elsewhere, including the Government’s views. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work The criteria for evaluation which I have agreed with and Pensions (Maria Miller): I would like to announce the Procedure Committee are as follows: plans to launch a new wage incentive scheme in July this The extent to which explanatory statements are tabled by (a) year. The wage incentive—worth up to £2,275 each—will Back Benchers and (b) the official Opposition; be available to employers who recruit an 18 to 24-year-old The extent to which explanatory statements are viewed as disabled person from Work Choice into sustained worthwhile and of assistance by Members; employment. Work Choice is a specialist disability The extent to which explanatory statements require editorial employment programme that provides tailored support or other intervention by the House authorities to ensure to help disabled people who have the most complex compliance with the guidelines; support needs. The extent to which explanatory statements provided new or additional information about amendments; This extra support for young disabled people will sit The extent to which explanatory statements or information alongside the youth contract, which currently offers uniquely available from those statements is referred to in a similar wage incentive for employers who recruit debate or otherwise used in discussion about the Bill; an 18 to 24-year-old from the Work programme—the The costs and resource implications, including indirect costs. Government’s leading back-to-work programme. The aim of this wage incentive scheme is to incentivise TRANSPORT employers into giving young disabled people participating on Work Choice a chance in a weaker market. This is at Maritime and Coastguard Agency a time when they might be overlooked because of a lack of skills or experience and the scheme can therefore help reduce the scarring that young people face as a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport result of a recession. It provides valuable support to (Mike Penning): I am pleased to announce the publication employers, in addition to the support to employer and today of the business plan 2012 to 2016 for the Maritime disabled employee already provided through Work Choice and Coastguard Agency (MCA). in-work support or Access to Work.

11P Petitions23 MAY 2012 Petitions 12P

Declares that the Petitioners believe that levying Petition VAT on static holiday caravans would cost thousands of jobs in caravan manufacturing, from their suppliers, Wednesday 23 May 2012 and in the wider UK holiday industry; and notes that the Petitioners believe that such a levy would lose revenue for the Government. PRESENTED PETITION The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Commons urges the Government to reverse its decision VAT on Static Caravans to levy VAT on static caravans. The Petition of residents of Coatbridge, Chryston and And the Petitioners remain, etc. Bellshill, [P001057]

671W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 672W

(c) 2012: co-location of core Departmental staff at a single Written Answers to site in Belfast thereby reducing the need for travel. Questions Complaints Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Wednesday 23 May 2012 Ireland how many complaints about the work of his Department and each of its non-departmental public bodies were received in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108953] WALES Mr Paterson: No complaints about the work of my Carbon Emissions Department were received during 2010-11 or 2011-12. My Department has two non-departmental public Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales bodies—the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission what her Department’s total level of carbon emissions and the Parades Commission for Northern Ireland. was between (a) 1 April 2010 and 1 April 2011 and (b) Both public bodies are independent of Government 2 April 2011 and 1 April 2012. [108599] and the hon. Gentleman may wish to write to the Commissions directly on these matters. Mr David Jones: The Wales Office’s carbon emissions for the period requested is given in the table. Lost Property The figures reflect that my Department is small, and so some events can have a disproportionately large Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern impact on the level of carbon emissions that would be Ireland how many items of equipment valued at £10,000 more easily absorbed by a larger Department. Most of or more his Department lost in (a) 2010-11 and (b) the Department’s emissions are derived from electricity 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108933] consumption and from travel, and to compensate for the impact, electricity is obtained from a supplier using Mr Paterson: During 2010-11 and 2011-12, no items renewable sources, and emissions from official cars are of equipment valued at £10,000 or more were lost in my offset. Department.

Total CO2 emissions (tonnes)

2010-11 70.8 2011-12 77.8 SCOTLAND

Carbon Emissions

NORTHERN IRELAND Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Carbon Emissions what his Department’s total level of carbon emissions was between (a) 1 April 2010 and 1 April 2011 and (b) 2 April 2011 and 1 April 2012. [108597] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what his Department’s total level of David Mundell: The Scotland Office’s total level of carbon emissions was between (a) 1 April 2010 and carbon emissions between (a) 1 April 2010 and 1 April 1 April 2011 and (b) 2 April 2011 and 1 April 2012. 2011 was 291.6 tonnes, and (b) 2 April 2011 and 1 April [108595] 2012 was 246.6 tonnes.

Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office carbon Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for emission levels for 2010-11 were 226 tonnes. Figures for Scotland what steps his Department took to reduce its 2011-12 are currently being collated and will be published carbon emissions in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. in due course. [108598]

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for David Mundell: A wide range of measures have been Northern Ireland what steps his Department took to taken in order to achieve significant CO2 emissions reduce its carbon emissions in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and savings in the Scotland Office. These included ensuring (c) 2012. [108596] central heating is switched off, as well as electrical appliances, when rooms are vacated (2010), the installation Mr Paterson: My Department has taken the following of a more energy efficient gas boiler (2011) and of Point steps to reduce carbon emissions: of Use heaters for hot tap water (2012). (a) 2010: reduced office accommodation in London which enabled CO2 savings on heating; a bio-mass heating system and Complaints solar panels were introduced at Hillsborough Castle; use of bottled water ceased; and private jet replaced by commercial flights. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (b) 2011: additional video conference facilities were introduced how many complaints about the work of his Department in order to reduce the need for travel; and further reduction in were received in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he accommodation in London. will make a statement. [108959] 673W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 674W

David Mundell: No complaints about the work of the its concerns to the attention of the Commission and Scotland Office were received in (a) 2010-11 and (b) other member states at meetings of the Justice and 2011-12. Home Affairs Council and in the context of the Commission’s intended review of the implementation Lost Property of the directive.

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Domestic Violence how many items of equipment valued at £10,000 or more his Department lost in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108934] Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department with reference to page 7 of her David Mundell: No items of equipment valued at Department’s document, Call to End Violence against £10,000 or more were lost by the Scotland Office in (a) Women and Girls (VAWG): Action Plan, what timetable 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. she has set for introducing in the British Crime Survey (BCS) new questions on attitudes towards VAWG; what response she has received from the BCS to the questions developed and put forward for inclusion; who was HOME DEPARTMENT consulted on the formulation of the questions; if she will place in the Library a copy of these questions; and Asylum: Young People if she will make a statement. [109053]

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lynne Featherstone: Questions about attitudes to Home Department whether her Department sought the domestic violence have been included in the Crime (a) advice and (b) permission of the Department for Survey for England and Wales (CSEW, formerly the Education before beginning the age assessments dental British Crime Survey) since April 2011. Results from x-ray pilot. [106405] the first 12 months of interviews will be available for publication after the Office for National Statistics’ (ONS) Damian Green: The UK Border Agency discussed the first release of crime statistics in July 2012. These questions trial with the Department for Education. Any decision were developed by the survey contractor and subject to to go ahead with the trial on the basis of ethical testing with members of the public before they were approval will be made with the agreement of the introduced to the survey. Department for Education. Responsibility for the publication of crime statistics Deportation: Offenders now rests with the ONS and they will give consideration to when and how such data will be published in their Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the reporting. Home Department how many foreign national offenders CSEW data will be made available to the public for from European Economic Area countries have been further analysis in due course. deported from the UK in each of the last five years; and what the nationality was of each such offender in each Human Trafficking such year. [108903]

Damian Green [holding answer 22 May 2012]: In Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010-11, 5,339 foreign national offenders were removed Home Department how many officials are involved in or deported from the UK. It is our policy not to disclose administering the National Referral Mechanism for the countries to which we remove or deport foreign suspected victims of trafficking; and in what parts of national offenders as this could jeopardise our diplomatic the country these officials are based. [108879] relations. Data from before 2010 is not held centrally. Damian Green: Under the National Referral Mechanism Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the decisions about who is a victim of trafficking can only Home Department if she will make it her policy to seek be made by trained specialists. The UK Human Trafficking the revision of the European Council Directive on the Centre (UKHTC), part of the Serious Organised Crime right of citizens of the Union and their family Agency (SOCA), and the UK Border Agency are the members to move and reside freely within the territory only designated ’Competent Authorities’ able to perform of the member states (2004/38/EC) so that foreign this role. Seven staff located within the UKHTC in national offenders from European Economic Area Birmingham—including five SOCA officers and two (EEA) countries can be deported from the UK in staff seconded from the UK Border Agency—undertake accordance with the arrangements for deporting this role on a full time basis. In addition approximately foreign national offenders from countries outside of 120 trained staff within the UK Border Agency who are the EEA. [108904] located across the United Kingdom undertake this role alongside other duties. Damian Green [holding answer 22 May 2012]: The Government supports the principle of free movement Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for the for citizens of EU member states, including our own, Home Department what cost was incurred by the (a) and recognises the many benefits that it brings. However UK Border Agency and (b) UK Human Trafficking we have repeatedly urged the EU to ensure that such Centre in administering the National Referral Mechanism rights are not open to abuse, whether by illegal migrants for suspected victims of trafficking in the latest period or by criminals. The Government will continue to bring for which figures are available. [108880] 675W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 676W

Damian Green: Funds have not been specifically allocated Damian Green: No public sector mutuals have been to administering the National Referral Mechanism and created or spun off from the Home Office. work has been absorbed within business as usual running The coalition Government is committed to supporting costs by the UK Border Agency and the UK Human the creation and growth of public service mutuals, Trafficking Centre, part of the Serious Organised Crime including giving public sector employees new rights to Agency. Details of the annual accounts of the UK bid for or request to take over the services that they are Border Agency and Serious Organised Crime Agency delivering. can be found using the following links: UK Border Agency Risk Assessment http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ aboutus/annual-reports-accounts/ Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency Home Department what strategic or transitional risk http://www.soca.gov.uk/about-soca/library registers in each area of policy are held by her Department; and if she will make a statement. [107475]

Illegal Immigrants: Deportation Damian Green: In the Home Office each of the main business areas has a top-level strategic risk register and, Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home in addition, there is an overarching strategic or corporate Department what steps she plans to take to increase the risk register. As well as this each major programme or number of illegal immigrants who are successfully removed. project has its own risk register. [107728] Victim Support Schemes Damian Green: We prefer that people leave the UK voluntarily. However if this option is refused then we Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for the will enforce removal including arresting and detaining Home Department what recent representations she has those who refuse to comply. received from Victim Support regarding changes to the We plan to increase the volume of removals this year commissioning of victim and witness support services. by building better processes and performance management [106430] for our enforcement teams; improving our contact management procedures; developing the hostile Lynne Featherstone: I have only responded to two environment in the UK so that it is increasingly difficult direct representations from Victim Support highlighting for illegal migrants to access public services prior to concerns about the proposal for local commissioning their arrest; delivering commercial solutions for increasing included in the “Getting it right for victims and witnesses” removals; and improving our management information consultation. To ensure that there is an accurate on those individuals who leave the UK voluntarily. consideration of all views received in response to the consultation paper, it was agreed that the Secretary of State for Justice as the lead on victims’ issues should Immigration Controls deal with other representations. I understand that his officials have so far received approximately 60 constituent Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the representations from Victim Support. The Government Home Department how many customs officers she is determined to ensure that available funding is better estimates have been asked to staff passport controls at targeted to those victims most in need of support and London airports in the last two months; and what that a wider range of service providers is available. We estimate she has made of the likely number of such believe this will be best achieved through a mixture of customs officers who will staff such controls up to the local and national commissioning and that Police and London 2012 Olympic Games. [107660] Crime Commissioners are best placed to be able to commission victims’ services at a local level. Damian Green: Border Force staff cover both immigration and customs work. Officers are trained to deal with both types of work. Border Force ensures that staff are deployed to meet the highest risks, whether this DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER is to deal with passengers at the primary control point or elsewhere, including customs activity. House of Lords: Reform During the Olympics, Border Force is deploying additional staff to London airports. Heathrow is the Simon Hart: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how designated Olympics airport; additional staff will be many letters and emails his Office has received calling deployed to ensure that all desks are open at peak times for the creation of an elected House of Lords in the last throughout the day. 12 months. [108400] Mr Harper: The Government has received more than Public Sector two thousand representations since the publication of its White Paper and draft House of Lords Reform Bill Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the in May last year. A detailed breakdown of the Home Department how many new public sector mutuals correspondence on House of Lords reform has not were created or spun-off by her Department in (a) been undertaken but the majority are concerned with 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if she will make a statement. the question of reserved places for Church of England [108914] Bishops in a reformed House of Lords. 677W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 678W

Simon Hart: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what Charles Hendry: The Government’s consultation on estimate he has made of the costs of a single question the renewables obligation banding review invited evidence public referendum on reform of the House of Lords; from industrial auto-generators (including energy intensive and what estimate he has made of the cost of a industries) interested in converting from coal-fired to referendum on reform of the House of Lords held on biomass generation. Evidence was specifically requested1 the same day as a general election. [108612] on the differential in generation costs, the costs of making biomass conversion economically viable for Mr Harper: The Government has made no estimate industrial auto-generators, and deployment potential of the costs of a referendum on reform of the House of for auto-generators converting from coal to biomass to Lords. help inform how much support such stations should receive under the renewables obligation. Simon Hart: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what A number of responses were received and will be estimate he has made of the potential cost of elections taken into account in the Government’s decision on to a wholly or part-elected House of Lords. [108680] levels of banded support for 2013-17. We aim to publish the Government response to the consultation shortly. Mr Harper: The costs of elections to a reformed 1http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ House of Lords will depend on a number of variables. cons_ro_review/cons_ro_review.aspx In particular, the electoral system used and the degree Consultation on proposals for the levels of banded support under of combination with other electoral events will affect the Renewables Obligation for the period 2013-17 and the Renewables the costs. The Government is currently considering the Obligation Order 2012, page 61. report of the Joint Committee on the Government’s draft Bill before finalising proposals for reform. We will publish full cost estimates when we introduce a Bill. Energy: Housing

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Energy and Climate Change with reference to Priority 1, Impact Indicator 1 on page 26 of his Department’s Portcullis House Annual Report and Accounts 2010-11, how the Green Deal and energy company obligation will promote the Mr Frank Field: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, installation of loft insulation of at least 125 mm in Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of households. [109124] Commons Commission for what reason the Despatch Box in Portcullis House is not stocked with its usual Gregory Barker: DECC’s analysis shows that the range of gifts and souvenirs; what policy has been set majority of lofts in Great Britain have already been on the stocking of such gifts and souvenirs in the filled to at least 125 mm. The remaining potential is Despatch Box; and whether that policy has changed predominantly loft “top-ups”. since the opening of Portcullis House. [109002] The Green Deal and the energy company obligation (ECO) will provide significant opportunities for, loft John Thurso: The Commission has not set a formal insulation. Households may choose to treat their lofts policy on the stocking of souvenirs in the Despatch under the Green Deal on a stand-alone basis or as part Box. Responsibility for souvenir stocking is delegated of a package of measures. In addition, ECO will be to the Catering and Retail Service. available to provide subsidy for loft insulation in many A small range of House of Commons souvenirs has circumstances, for example for qualifying vulnerable been on sale from the Despatch Box since shortly after households; for homes in low income areas; and for loft it opened in 2001-02. The range of souvenirs has been installations which take place alongside other specified reviewed regularly in response to changing tastes and measures such as solid wall insulation. seasonal demands. The recent reduction in the range available from the Despatch Box reflects sales trends. Stocking a smaller range of souvenirs will also help to Fuel Oil: West Midlands reduce queuing times (an issue of concern to many users) for its primary business activity, which is serving Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State hot drinks and light refreshments. A full range of souvenirs for Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate continues to be available at other outlets. he has made of the average household expenditure on The Director General of Facilities would be happy to heating fuel bills in (a) Coventry and (b) the west discuss this matter further with the hon. Gentleman. midlands. [108702]

Charles Hendry: The most recent data available are ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE for 2011. In this year, we estimate that the average electricity and gas bill in the west midlands was £1,102. Electricity: Prices This is based on a national average of actual gas and electricity consumption in 2011 of 3,932 kWh for standard Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State electricity, and 13,680 kWh for gas. These consumption for Energy and Climate Change what discussions he levels were lower than usual due to the unusually warm has had with energy intensive industries on changes in weather in 2011. electricity costs due to the renewables obligation. We are not able to separately estimate this figure for [109023] Coventry. 679W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 680W

Heysham Power Stations I have written to 20 local authorities who between them account for almost 80% of families in bed and David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy breakfast for more than six weeks, reiterating the and Climate Change when he expects the building of Government’s position that this practice is unacceptable, Heysham’s new power station to be completed; and if urging them to prioritise elimination of the use of long he will make a statement. [109301] term bed and breakfast accommodation for families, and offering support from my Department to do so. Charles Hendry: As set out in the 2011 Nuclear The Government has increased levels of funding on National Policy Statement, Heysham is one of the sites homelessness, and has announced an additional £70 considered by the Government as suitable for future million investment over the last year. We are introducing nuclear power stations. The construction of any new changes through the Localism Act which will give local nuclear power station at Heysham is, however, a commercial authorities increased flexibility to use the private rented matter and there are currently no-active plans by industry sector to meet their homelessness duties, and reduce the to begin any time soon. need for them to place any families in bed and breakfast It is in the UK’s interest that lead sites continue to accommodation. have the potential to be developed. Government remains A table has been placed in the Library of the House. firmly committed to its efforts to ensure that the conditions This shows the number of households with dependant are right for investment in new nuclear power in the children and/or pregnant woman with no other dependants UK. that had been in bed and breakfast accommodation for more than six weeks in the last 12 months at local Public Sector authority level. It also shows the number of households in that category which had been accommodated pending Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy a review or appeal. and Climate Change how many new public sector The following table shows, for the last five years, the mutuals were created or spun-off by his Department in England totals of households in temporary accommodation (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a with dependent children and/or pregnant woman in bed statement. [108912] and breakfast accommodation which had been resident for six weeks or more at the end of each quarter. Some Gregory Barker: The Department has not created or of the households included in the table had been spun off any new public sector mutuals over the period accommodated pending a review of appeal, rather than 2010-12. in the exercise of a duty. I support the idea of the public sector working closely with the voluntary sector where such schemes are able as at end March June September December to provide the value to the taxpayer. 2007 80 100 130 120 2008 160 180 160 100 2009 70 80 130 120 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 2010 100 160 140 150 2011 200 240 400 450 Bed and Breakfast Accommodation Note: Numbers of households are rounded to the nearest 10. Source: Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Quarterly PIE returns and Local Government (1) which local authorities have housed families in bed and breakfast accommodation Statistical releases on statutory homelessness are available for more than six weeks in the last 12 months; [109111] both in the Library of the House and via the DCLG website: (2) what estimate he has made of the number of families who have stayed in bed and breakfast accommodation http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/homelessnessstatistics/ for more than six weeks in the last 12 months; [109112] publicationshomelessness/ (3) what estimate he has made of the percentage Outturn information on local authority expenditure change in the number of families who have stayed in on bed and breakfast accommodation for 2011-12 will bed and breakfast accommodation for more than six be published in November 2012. This level of detailed weeks year-to-year over the last five years; [109113] information is not available for budget estimates. (4) what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of using bed and breakfast accommodation Building Regulations for homeless households in (a) 2011-12 and (b) 2012-13. [109114] Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant Shapps: The vast majority of local authorities Communities and Local Government what assessment have no families in bed and breakfast accommodation he has made of the effectiveness of the enforcement of over six weeks, and the numbers of households with building regulations. [108736] children in bed and breakfast accommodation remain at historically low levels. However, I am concerned that Andrew Stunell: The Department set out its views on a small number of authorities are placing families in the current enforcement provisions for the Building bed and breakfast accommodation beyond the six week Regulations along with proposals for changes which limit. would make the arrangements more effective in a 681W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 682W consultation document “2012 consultation on changes Robert Neill: To collect any such information would to the Building Regulations in England: Section four—the require a search of all HR records which would involve building control system” which is available at: disproportionate costs. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ planningandbuilding/brconsultationsection4 Non-domestic Rates The consultation closed on 27 April 2012 and the Department is currently preparing a summary and analysis Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for of the responses which will be published later in the Communities and Local Government how many year. Decisions on how to take the proposed changes businesses in (a) England, (b) the south-west and (c) forward will be made in the light of the responses received. Newton Abbot constituency qualify for small business Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats rate relief. [106812]

Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: The number of hereditaments in receipt Communities and Local Government (1) what (a) grants of small business rate relief as at 31 December 2010 in and (b) contracts his Department has awarded to England, the south-west and Teignbridge local authority companies or organisations run by individuals who are shown in the following table. Data on the number of were previously employed in any capacity by (i) the businesses who qualify for small business rate relief are Conservative Party or its elected representatives and (ii) not centrally collected. The data are also not available the Liberal Democrat Party or its elected representatives at constituency level but businesses in Newton Abbot since May 2010; what the (A) value and (B) nature was constituency will form part of the total for Teignbridge of these contracts; and whether they were publicly local authority. advertised; [107145] (2) what (a) grants and (b) contracts his Department Number of businesses in receipt of small business rate relief as at 31 December 2010 has awarded to companies or organisations run by individuals who previously held an elected position as a England 460,000 member of the (i) Conservative Party and (ii) Liberal South West 61,026 Democrat Party since May 2010; what the (A) value Teignbridge local 1,875 and (B) nature was of these contracts; and whether they authority were publicly advertised; [107146] (3) which individuals have been paid by his Department The data are taken from the National Non-Domestic for consultancy or other services who were previously Rates 1 (NNDR1) Supplementary forms completed employed in any capacity by the (a) Conservative Party annually by billing authorities in England and returned or its elected representatives and (b) Liberal Democrat to the Department of Communities and Local Government. Party or its elected representatives since May 2010; The data are publicly available in tables in the Statistics what the (i) cost and (ii) nature was of the services section of the DCLG website: provided; and whether they were publicly advertised; http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ [107147] statistics/nondomesticrates201112f (4) which individuals have been paid by his Department Reforms in the Localism Act will make it easier for for consultancy or other services who previously held small firms to claim the small business rate relief to an elected position as a member of the (a) Conservative which they are entitled. Party and (b) Liberal Democrat Party since May 2010; what the (i) cost and (ii) nature was of the services Public Expenditure provided; and whether they were publicly advertised. [107148] Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: As part of this Government’s transparency Communities and Local Government if he will publish agenda, since 2010 all contracts over the value of £10,000 a statement of his Department’s expenditure in each of are published on Contracts Finder. the last 36 months; and what steps his Department takes to avoid an annual underspend. [108618] Figures on spending over £500 are published on my Department’s website as part of our wider transparency agenda. Robert Neill: The Department’s expenditure is published annually through the laying in Parliament of the Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s annual report and accounts. A copy of Communities and Local Government what the (a) job the accounts for 2009-10 and 2010-11 can be found in title and (b) pay band was of each official, excluding the Library of the House or at the following link: special advisers, recruited by his Department since May http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/about/howwework/ 2010 (1) who was previously employed in any capacity corporatereports/reportsaccounts/annualreports/ by the (i) Conservative Party or its elected representatives The Department’s annual report and accounts for and (ii) Liberal Democrat Party or its elected representatives; 2011-12 are intended to be laid in Parliament before the and whether their position was advertised publicly; summer recess. In the meantime, quarterly information [107266] about expenditure during 2011-12 can be found in the (2) who previously held an elected position as a Business Plan Quarterly Data Summary published by member of the (i) Conservative Party and (ii) Liberal my Department at the following link: Democrat Party; and whether their position was advertised http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ publicly. [107267] quarterlydatasummaryjan12 683W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 684W

The Department monitors and reviews its budgets Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for and spend on a monthly basis, to reduce the risk of Communities and Local Government what powers local large underspends at the end of the financial year. authorities have to determine the bands into which Where an underspend is unavoidable at the end of a those waiting for housing should be placed. [109137] financial year, the Department looks at opportunities to bring forward spend or liabilities from future years in Grant Shapps: The Localism Act maintains the statutory a way that offers value for money. The Department also reasonable preference requirements in the allocation uses the Treasury’s budget exchange system to move legislation which are designed to ensure that overall unspent funds into future financial years, up to the priority for social housing is given to those who need it permitted limits. most. Otherwise, it is for local authorities to decide on what Public Sector principles their allocation scheme is framed, including whether to prioritise housing applicants into bands, and Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for which bands to place them in. Communities and Local Government how many new public sector mutuals were created or spun-off by his Temporary Accommodation Department in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108909] Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what representations he has Robert Neill: My Department has not created or received on the treatment by local authorities of households spun-off any new public sector mutuals in 2010-11 or in temporary accommodation to whom a statutory 2011-12. The Government has committed that every homelessness duty has been assumed and where housing Department will put in place Rights to Provide for costs take their assumed income above the household public sector workers to take over the running of services benefit cap; [109115] and DCLG is working towards this. (2) what guidance he has issued to local authorities on discharging their duty to place homeless households Social Rented Housing into accommodation which will leave them with notional income above the household benefit cap and Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for which also respects local connections. [109116] Communities and Local Government how many home swaps have taken place under the HomeSwap Direct Grant Shapps: The Homelessness (Suitability of Scheme in (a) Mid-Dorset and North Poole constituency Accommodation) Order 1996 sets out those factors a and (b) England. [109135] local authority should consider when determining whether or not accommodation is affordable. The Homelessness Grant Shapps: “HomeSwap” Direct was launched in Code of Guidance for Local Authorities, updated in October 2011 to allow social tenants who wish to move 2006, includes statutory guidance on the suitability of through a mutual exchange to see details of all possible accommodation into which homeless households may properties nationwide. The scheme has operated very be placed, including location and affordability. It also successfully since its launch, with tenants carrying out includes guidance on local connection, which was amended over 1 million searches of the property data held on in 2008 to reflect changes made by the Housing and HomeSwap Direct. Regeneration Act 2008. Details of the number of moves that have taken place The treatment by local authorities of homeless under the HomeSwap Direct Scheme in (a) Mid-Dorset households who may be affected by the household and North Poole constituency and (b) England are not benefit cap is an issue of balance between location and held centrally. affordability. This was raised by a number of voluntary sector organisations and in responses to our consultation Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for “Local Decisions: Next steps towards a fairer future for Communities and Local Government what account is social housing”and extensively debated during the passage taken of bedroom size when allocating social housing; of the Localism Act. and what ability local authorities have to determine We are actively considering the issue of local authorities whether bedrooms are appropriately sized in their placing families so far away from their previous home Allocations Policy. [109136] and we will announce proposals shortly. Grant Shapps: It is for local authorities to decide what account is taken of bedroom size when allocating Trade Unions housing. When framing the rules in their allocation policy that determine the number and size of bedrooms Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities to allocate to different households, authorities are free and Local Government (1) how many trade union to set their own criteria, provided they do not result in a representatives in (a) his Department and (b) each of household being statutorily overcrowded. its non-departmental public bodies had (i) part-time; We have issued draft guidance to local authorities and (ii) full-time paid facility time arrangements in reminding them, when setting these criteria, of the need 2011-12; [107334] to take account of the provisions in the Welfare Reform (2) how many days were utilised for paid facility time Act 2012 which will reduce housing benefit for social by each trade union representative in (a) his Department sector tenants of working age who under-occupy their and (b) each of its non-departmental public bodies in property. 2011-12; and at what cost to the public purse; [107335] 685W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 686W

(3) how many days were utilised for paid facility time Valuation Tribunal Service by each trade union representative in (a) his Department Trade union representative Days/£ and (b) each of its non-departmental public bodies for trade union (i) duties and (ii) activities in 2011-12. [107336] Total cost £1,834.84 1 All for trade union activities Robert Neill: The following tables set out the number The Audit Commission of trade union representatives in the Department for Trade union representative Days/£ Communities and Local Government and its non- 1 162.9 departmental bodies and facility time and cost details. 2 143.3 Number of representatives 3 31.3 Number of trade union representatives 4 19.7 Full-time Part-time 5 9.2 6 4.6 Department for Communities and 2117 4.5 Local Government Total days 275.5 Homes and Communities Agency — 12 Fire Service College — 10 Planning Inspectorate (PINS) — 27 Total cost £116,984.75 Local Government Ombudsman — 5 The Audit Commission does not collect records regarding Audit Commission — 7 the amount of time spent by each trade union representative Independent Housing —2on trade union duties and activities in 2011-12. Ombudsman Ltd Valuation Tribunal Service — 2 Total days Total cost (£) Queen Elizabeth II Conference 1— 1— Centre, Valuation Tribunal for Homes and 74 37,000 England, Building Regulations Communities Advisory Committee, Architects Agency Registration Board, West Planning 628.8 119,889 Northants Development Inspectorate Corporation, London Thames Gateway Development The Homes and Communities Agency and the Planning Corporation and the Leasehold Advisory Service Inspectorate do not collect records regarding the amount 1 No trade union representatives of time spent by each trade union representative, including details trade union duties and activities in 2011-12. Facility time details and costs The Local Government Ombudsman, the Independent Department for Communities and Local Government Housing Ombudsman Ltd and the Fire Service College Trade do not collect facility time or cost information on their union Trade union Trade union trade union representatives. representative duties activities Day total/£ The Government have announced their intention to 1 (full- 208 7 215 commence a consultation shortly with the civil service time) trade unions on limiting the amount of paid time civil 2 (full- 211 4 215 servants can spend on trade union duties and activities, time) and ending the practice of having civil servants engaged 3 30 23.5 53.5 full-time in trade union representative roles. 4 612485 5 12 8.5 20.5 6 336 HEALTH 7 2.25 8.5 10.75 8 4 3.25 7.25 Carbon Emissions 9 1.25 1.25 2.5 10 0 17.75 17.75 Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for 11 1.5 0.5 2 Health (1) what his Department’s total level of carbon 12426emissions was between (a) 1 April 2010 and 1 April 2011 13606and (b) 2 April 2011 and 1 April 2012; [108581] Total days 647.25 (2) what steps his Department took to reduce its carbon emissions in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. Total cost £140,687 [108582]

Mr Simon Burns: The Department (including NHS Non-departmental bodies Connecting for Health) has introduced a number of Valuation Tribunal Service measures to reduce its carbon emissions. These include: Trade union representative Days/£ (a) 2010 13Introduction of more energy efficient computers 22Decommissioning of information technology (IT) servers Total days 15 Upgrading ventilation and air conditioning units 687W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 688W

Upgrade of lighting Psychologists employed in the public sector Prison Service, (b) 2011 31 March 2008 to 2012 Grade 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Upgrade of Building Management Systems Improved control of air handling units Psychologists1 344 332 274 267 251 Shutting down heating earlier Trainee Psychologist 317 312 331 328 307 (c) 2012 Psychological 401 373 372 425 420 Assistant Introduction of LED lighting Total 1,062 1,017 977 1,020 978 Consideration of using air blades systems 1 The HR database does not record which psychologists are chartered, Pump upgrades information is provided for psychologists in manager grades E to G Other measures that the Department and NHS and senior manager grades A to D. Psychologists employed in contracted establishments, 31 March 2008 Connecting for Health have introduced over the period to 2012 include: Grade 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Reduction of fleet emissions; 1 Use of secondary metering to monitor server rooms; Psychologist 108101110 Trainee 23 30 30 27 24 Introduction of a managed print service; and Assistant 16 13 12 25 19 Automatic switch off of all IT equipment and moving to the Total 49 51 52 63 53 Closed Loop framework contract for recycling of waste paper. 1 NHS Connecting for Health already use this framework. It is not recorded by every contractor whether the psychologists are chartered. The Departments gross carbon emissions for energy and Eyesight: Testing travel for 1 April 2010 to 1 April 2011 were 10,653 tonnes of carbon dioxide emission and from 2 April 2011 to 1 April 2012 were an estimated 9,324 tonnes of carbon Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health dioxide emissions. how many people over the age of 60 received a free eye test in each of the last three years. [108556]

Clinical Psychologists: Prison Service Mr Simon Burns: The following table shows the number of national health service sight tests for persons aged 60 Mr Ronnie Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State and over, in England from 1999-2000 to 2010-11. This for Health how many (a) chartered psychologists, (b) information has been extracted from the report, “General trainee psychologists and (c) psychological assistants Ophthalmic Services: Activity Statistics for England, have been employed by the Prison Service in the last Yearending 31 March 2011”. This report is also available five years. [108414] on the NHS Information Centre website at: www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/gosactivity1011 Mr Blunt: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Patients may qualify for an NHS sight test on more Ministry of Justice. than one criterion. However, they would only be recorded Information on the number of (a) chartered against one criterion on the form. Patients are more psychologists, (b) trainee psychologists and (c) likely to be recorded according to their clinical need psychological assistants employed within the Prison rather than their age. For example, a patient aged over Service over the last five years is contained in the 60, with glaucoma, is likely to be recorded in the glaucoma following table. Psychologists engaged on a sessional category only. The count by eligibility is therefore basis are not included. Information on private sector approximate. Patients may also have had more than one establishments has been provided by individual contractors. sight test in the specified time period.

Annex C, Table A1: NHS sight tests, by patient eligibility, in England, as at the specified financial years 1996-97 1997-98 1998-99 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04

Aged 60 and over 0 0 0 3,301,412 3,753,315 4,012,946 4,135,615 4,308,889 Children 0-15 2,353,696 2,385,520 2,458,944 2,425,666 2,404,037 2,374,943 2,284,368 2,236,329 Students 16-18 515,321 507,983 477,013 468,221 454,319 487,882 468,735 456,614 Adults receiving 1,905,505 1,975,057 1,781,740 1,359,767 1,158,854 1,082,048 963,281 953,325 income support1 Adults receiving tax 358,073 335,711 341,887 328,471 360,033 450,475 412,478 474,541 credits Adults receiving 28,983 66,068 176,562 219,654 211,827 230,050 207,703 201,487 JSA2 Low income 331,134 316,700 301,784 226,694 189,899 164,262 166,784 149,033 certificate holders (HC2) Registered blind/ 36,380 40,810 40,914 21,783 19,604 18,948 17,850 19,834 partially sighted Diabetics/Glaucoma 604,841 644,345 685,107 469,375 451,601 432,819 448,147 474,385 sufferers Need complex 84,409 86,276 80,498 66,029 67,462 61,129 66,268 71,418 lenses 689W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 690W

Annex C, Table A1: NHS sight tests, by patient eligibility, in England, as at the specified financial years 1996-97 1997-98 1998-99 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04

Close relatives 40 589,347 632,740 647,857 512,341 496,182 491,898 490,820 499,404 and over of Glaucoma sufferers Prisoner on Leave n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Unallocated 22 45 28 0 0 0 0 0 Total 6,807,711 6,991,255 6,992,334 9,399,416 9,567,135 9,807,403 9,662,052 9,845,259

2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Aged 60 and over 4,303,128 4,450,007 4,518,672 4,860,912 5,015,536 5,191,773 5,305,177 Children 0-15 2,206,853 2,168,542 2,113,479 2,299,159 2,313,500 2,460,089 2,449,831 Students 16-18 463,568 467,487 490,762 507,918 516,837 528,512 543,199 Adults receiving 1,091,019 1,085,424 1,170,055 1,119,650 1,107,692 1,085,346 1,085,496 income support1 Adults receiving tax 528,409 538,779 569,833 660,736 675,514 689,091 696,757 credits Adults receiving 195,783 218,689 236,126 225,782 239,556 313,205 309,283 JSA2 Low income 152,534 142,796 133, S80 127,542 119,667 104,549 91,599 certificate holders (HC2) Registered blind/ 22,227 22,304 28,431 18,764 21,275 21,929 14,385 partially sighted Diabetics/Glaucoma 589,465 646,628 597,773 591,954 605,302 708,631 723,921 sufferers Need complex lenses 72,312 70,295 86,816 82,476 75,122 62,732 73,297 Closerelatives40and 523,680 543,605 539,345 552,997 588,114 644,244 644,450 over of Glaucoma sufferers Prisoner on Leave n/a n/a n/a n/a 360 1,550 1,134 Unallocated 0 122 50 0000 Total 10,148,978 10,354,682 10,484,922 11,047,890 11,278,474 11,811,651 11,938,529 n/a = Not applicable. Prisoner on Leave was introduced in October 2008. 1 Income support includes patients receiving pension credit guarantee credit as well as income-related employment and support allowance, which was Introduced in October 2008. 2 Job seeker’s allowance. Notes: 1. From 1 April 1999, eligibility for an NHS sight test was extended to everyone aged 60 or over. 2. Patients may qualify for an NHS sight test on more than one criterion. However, they would only be recorded against one criterion on the form. Patients are more likely to be recorded according to their clinical need rather than their age. For example, a patient aged over 60, with glaucoma is likely to be recorded in the glaucoma category only. The count by eligibility is therefore approximate. Source: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

General Practitioners: Pay Meetings

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what the total cost to the public purse was of on what dates (a) he, (b) Ministers and (c) senior the Quality Outcomes Framework bonus system paid officials in his Department have met representatives of to GPs in each of the last five years. [108632] (i) the Institute for Public Policy Research, (ii) the Taxpayers’ Alliance, (iii) the Institute of Economic Affairs, (iv) the Child Poverty Action Group, (v) Mr Simon Burns: The Quality and Outcomes Framework ResPublica, (vi) the Centre for Social Justice and is a voluntary incentive scheme for general practitioner (vii) Policy Exchange; and if he will publish the practices to implement evidence-based standards that minutes and agendas of these meetings. [108969] improve the quality of care delivered to patients. Audited expenditure from primary care trust financial returns in England for the last five years is shown as follows: Mr Simon Burns: Details of ministerial meetings with external stakeholders are published quarterly in arrears £ billion on the Department’s website at: 2006-07 1.040 http://transparency.dh.gov.uk/category/transparency/ 2007-08 1.062 ministerial-gifts-hospitality/ 2008-09 1.068 2009-10 1.080 To search the diaries of officials and publish the minutes and agendas of any meetings would involve 2010-11 1.096 disproportionate cost. 691W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 692W

Mental Health Services: Veterans scrutiny. The result of this was that integrated veterans’ mental health services are now up and running in the majority of the network areas, with the remainder to Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for follow by the end of the calendar year. All services and Health if he will issue guidance to clinical commissioning treatments approved by the Department and which groups on how to support the mental health needs of make use of departmental funds are clinically evidenced former service personnel. [108495] and National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence- approved. Mr Simon Burns: The exact procedures which the Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), and Trade Unions the rest of the ministerial team will use to communicate their wishes to the clinical commissioning groups have not been defined as yet. However, commissioning for Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health military health and veterans-related services and the how many meetings have taken place between (a) his way in which this will work is a priority for both the Department and (b) each of its non-departmental bodies Ministry of Defence and the Department—monthly and trade union representatives utilising paid facility meetings of the commissioning sub-group take place to time in each of the last five years to discuss (i) collective work through related issues. bargaining, (ii) redundancies, (iii) negotiations relating to employment, pay and conditions and (iv) other trade Under current arrangements, the Secretary of State union and industrial relations duties; and what the does not issue guidance directly to the primary care dates and times were of each meeting. [107353] trusts (PCTs). The NHS Operating Framework is published every year which guides the strategic health authorities (SHAs) as to the key areas on which they need to focus Mr Simon Burns: For the Department and the Medicines their attentions in that time period, and this filters and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, the total down to PCT level. Additionally, the Department has block of time for industrial relations and trade union established 10 Armed Forces Networks—one in each of activities duties is agreed centrally between human resources the ‘old’ SHA areas. The networks have a direct impact (HR) and the Departmental Trade Unions. This is on work carried out regionally as they work closely with called Facility Time and is granted at three levels: general practitioners, providers, and commissioners in Accredited representatives who work ‘full time’ on industrial each local area to ensure that services for veterans are relations duties (100%)—these are funded directly by a budget developed and resource in the most effective way possible. held centrally by HR; Funding is also allocated to each network from the Accredited representatives who spend significant time on industrial centre and filtered down via the networks for use on relations (less than 100%—5%) funded by local business area veterans’ mental health projects. All funding approved and the central budget reimburses for time spent; and by the Department is for clinically evidenced National Accredited representatives who spend limited time on industrial Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence-approved relations (less than 5%), normally Branch Executive Committee services. The Department is currently putting in place a members of floor stewards, granted reasonable time for these mental health clinical advisory group to provide additional duties—but not met centrally or counted towards the total time referred above. As minimal, this is met by local business support in this area. areas.

Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for We do not hold records of every meeting in a way Health what assessment his Department has made of that identifies business as set out in the four categories the treatment pathway and services to support former outlined in the above question, but we can confirm that: service personnel with mental health problems. [108496] Pay Committee meetings are held on a monthly basis covering collective bargaining and negotiations relating to employment, Mr Simon Burns: This Government has put a great pay and conditions; deal of work into improving mental health services for Quarterly Department Trade Union side (DTUS) and Annual veterans. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Departmental Industrial Relations Council (DIRC) meetings Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) published his ‘Fighting Fit’ are held covering other trade union and industrial relations report into the mental health and wellbeing of serving duties; and personnel and veterans in October 2010. The report Meetings covering redundancies are held as and when required contained a number of recommendations for the during times of Departmental change/restructuring. improvement of mental health services for this group, The Government is soon to start consulting civil and these are in the process of being implemented, service trades unions about current facility time practices. within a £7.2 million budget which was assigned to the area shortly after the report was released. Dr Murrison The response for the Department’s non-departmental recommended an uplift in the number of community public bodies is summarised in the table. veterans’ mental health workers in each region. Following The following table shows how many meetings have the publication of the report the Department consulted taken place between those non-departmental bodies with its 10 Armed Forces Networks as to how this and trade union representatives utilising paid facility should be implemented in order to add value to the time in each of the last five years to discuss (i) collective existing arrangements in each area. In order to do this, bargaining, (ii) redundancies, (iii) negotiations relating treatment pathways and service availability were assessed to employment, pay and conditions and (iv) other trade in each region, which then came up with proposals for union and industrial relations duties. It also shows the new services. These were sent to the Department for dates and times and/or duration of each meeting: 693W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 694W

Care Quality Commission (CQC) (i) Total (ii) Total number of number of meetings Date Time meetings Date Time

2007-2008 n/a CQC was established on 1 April 2009 and we have no data available for our predecessor organisations

2008-2009 n/a CQC was established on 1 April 2009 and we have no data available for our predecessor organisations

2009-2010 3 14 January 2010 1330-1630 8 2 February 2010 1430-1630 15 February 2010 1330-1630 4 February 2010 1430-1630 15 March 2010 1330-1630 8 February 2010 1430-1630 10 February 2010 1430-1630 24 February 2010 1430-1630 8 March 2010 1430-1630 18 March 2010 1430-1630 22 March 2010 1430-1630

2010-2011 11 16 19 April 2010 1430-1630 19 April 2010 1330-1630 14 April 2010 1430-1630 17 May 2010 1330-1630 19 April 2010 1430-1630 16 June 2010 1330-1630 13 May 2010 1430-1630 12 July 2010 1330-1630 15 June 2010 1430-1630 16 August 2010 1330-1630 29 June 2010 1430-1630 13 September 2010 1330-1630 20 July 2010 1430-1630 11 October 2010 1330-1630 3 August 2010 1430-1630 15 November 2010 1330-1630 11 August 2010 1430-1630 13 November 2010 1330-1630 24 August 2010 1430-1630 16 February 2011 0930-1230 7 September 2010 1430-1630 16 March 2011 0930-1230 21 September 2010 1430-1630 28 October 2010 1430-1630 12 October 2010 1430-1630 21 October 2010 1430-1630 26 October 2010 1430-1630

2011-2012 12 20 April 2011 0930-1230 6 2 April 2012 1100-1300 18 May 2011 0930-1230 12 April 2012 1400-1500 15 June 2011 0930-1230 17 April 2012 1500-1600 20 July 2011 0930-1230 27 April 2012 1130-1300 21 September 2011 0930-1230 1 May 2012 1300-1600 24 October 2011 1300-1600 11 May 2012 1100-1300 24 November 2011 1400-1700 11 January 2012 1330-1700 8 February 2012 1300-1500 7 March 2012 1300-1528 11 April 2012 1300-1500 9 May 2012 1300-1600

(iii) Total (iv) Total number of number of meetings Date Time meetings Date Time

2007-2008

2008-2009

2009-2010 12 14 December 2009 1330-1430 14 January 2010 1330-1430 695W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 696W

(iii) Total (iv) Total number of number of meetings Date Time meetings Date Time

2 February 2010 1330-1430 4 February 2010 1330-1430 8 February 2010 1330-1430 10 February 2010 1330-1430 24 February 2010 1330-1430 8 March 2010 1330-1430 18 March 2010 1330-1430 22 March 2010 1330-1430 15 February 2010 1230-1330 15 March 2010 1230-1330

2010-2011 5 26 January 2011 1500-1700 42 19 April 2010 1230-1330 8 February 2011 1500-1800 17 May 2010 1230-1330 17 February2011 1300-1700 15 June 2010 1330-1330 2 March 2011 1300-1700 23 June 2010 1330-1330 8 March 2011 1330-1700 29 June 2010 1330-1330 20 July 2010 1230-1330 16 June 2010 1230-1330 12 July 2010 1330-1430 20 July 2010 1330-1430 3 August 2010 1330-1430 11 August 2010 1230-1330 16 August 2010 1230-1330 24 August 2010 1230-1330 7 September 2010 1330-1430 13 September 2010 1330-1430 21 September 2010 1330-1430 28 September 2010 1230-1330 11 October 2010 1330-1430 12 October 2010 1330-1430 26 October 2010 1230-1330 11 November 2010 1230-1330 15 November 2010 1330-1430 23 November 2010 1230-1330 13 November 2010 1330-1430 21 December10 1330-1430 25 January 2011 1330-1430 16 February 2011 1230-1330 16 March 2011 1330-1430 13 April 2011 0830-0930 20 April 2011 1330-1430 18 May 2011 1330-1430 8 June 2011 0830-0930 3 August 2011 0830-0930 24 August 2011 0830-0930 19 September 2011 0830-0930 4 October 2011 0830-0930 10 October 2011 0830-0930 26 October 2011 1200-1300 9 November 2011 1400-1300 28 November 2011 1400-1500 8 December 2011 1400-1500 697W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 698W

(iii) Total (iv) Total number of number of meetings Date Time meetings Date Time

21 December 2011 1200-1300

2011-2012 17 6 April 2011 1300-1700 15 20 April 2011 1200-1300 13 April 2011 1300-1400 18 May 2011 1230-1330 20 April 2011 1300-1430 15 June 2011 0800-0900 18 May 2011 1330-1700 20 July 2011 1200-1300 8 June 2011 0900-1100 21 September 2011 1200-1300 3 August 2011 1300-1700 24 October 2011 0830-0930 24 August 2011 1300-1700 24 November 2011 0830-1030 19 September 2011 0930-1300 26 January 2011 1200-1300 4 October 2011 1030-1300 8 February 2011 1230-1330 10 October 2011 1300-1700 17 February 2011 1200-1400 26 October 2011 1330-1700 2 March 2011 1200-1400 9 November 2011 1430-1700 8 March 2011 1300-1400 28 November 2011 1430-1700 6 April 2011 0900-1100 8 December 2011 1430-1700 1 March 2012 0830-0930 21 December 2011 1100-1300 27 March 2012 1230-1330 1 March 2012 0930-1030 27 March 2012 1330-1500

General Social Care Council (i) (ii) (iii) (iv) Total Total Total Total number number number number of of of of meetings Date Time meetings Date Time meetings Date Time meetings Date Time

2007-08 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a

2008-09 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a

2009-10 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a 4 January 2hrs each 0 n/a n/a February

2010-11 0 n/a n/a 0 n/a n/a 4 January 2hrs each 0 n/a n/a February

2011-12 0 n/a n/a 3 27 2hrs 2 February 2 hrs each 0 n/a n/a January 24 2hrs February 2 April 2hrs

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Lost Property

Football Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many items of equipment Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, valued at £10,000 or more his Department lost in (a) Olympics, Media and Sport if he will take steps to 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. investigate reform of the football creditors rule. [108881] [108924]

Hugh Robertson: The Government supports the John Penrose: No items of equipment valued at £10,000 recommendation of the Commons Culture, Media and or more have been lost by the Department in the last Sport Select Committee for a change to the present rule. two years. At the same time we recognise the legal issues under Meetings consideration, and the current legal challenge being brought by HMRC against the Football League. We Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, await the outcome of the courts’ decision on this before Olympics, Media and Sport on what dates (a) he, (b) deciding what further steps may be needed. Ministers and (c) senior officials in his Department 699W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 700W have met representatives of (i) the Institute for Public The nature of the expenditure limit, which set by the Policy Research, (ii) the Taxpayers’ Alliance, (iii) the Treasury and agreed by Parliament, is such that DCMS Institute of Economic Affairs, (iv) ResPublica, (v) the is required not to overspend its budget each year. The Centre for Social Justice and (vi) Policy Exchange; and Department also takes a variety of steps to monitor any if he will publish the minutes and agendas of these potentially material underspend (for example if a meetings. [108974] programme is delayed). The most notable of these are: Monthly monitoring and reporting of expenditure across DCMS John Penrose: The Secretary of State for Culture, and its arm’s length bodies (ALBs) Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Maintenance of a risk tracker to provide early warning of Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), Ministers potential variances before they arise and senior officials in the Department have not met Active management of the budget across budget heads and with representatives of the Institute for Public Policy between years Research, the Institute of Economic Affairs, ResPublica, or Policy Exchange. The Minister for Sport and the Olympics, my hon. Tourism Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), met with representatives of the Centre for Social Justice on 21 March 2011 to discuss a report on Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2012 sports legacy. No minutes were taken. Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made A senior official met with the chief executive of the of the value to the UK economy of outbound tourism. Taxpayers Alliance on 29 March 2012 to discuss [108812] philanthropy. No minutes were taken. John Penrose: The Government’s Tourism Policy, Members published in March 2011, outlines the UK Government’s approach to the visitor economy as a whole—including outbound tourism—both for leisure and business purposes. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Further information can be found on the Department Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he plans to for Culture, Media and Sport’s website, or by using the reply to the letter from the right hon. Member for following link: Manchester, Gorton of 30 March 2012 with regard to Ms L Watson. [109011] http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/7896.aspx No official estimate has been made of the precise John Penrose: The subject of this correspondence is a value of the outbound sector, but ABTA’s recent report matter for the Department for the Environment, Food estimated that outbound travel directly contributes over and Rural Affairs (DEFRA). Therefore, this letter has £22 billion to the economy, representing 1.6% of UK been transferred to them to provide a response. GDP. With the inclusion of contributions made by industries supplying the sector, the total economic impact Public Expenditure rises to over £54 billion, or 3.8% of UK GDP. ABTA’s report has been published on their website and can be found using the following link: Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will publish a http://www.abta.com/resources/news/view/491 statement of his Department’s expenditure in each of The Office for National Statistics records that UK the last 36 months; and what steps his Department residents spent £31.0 billion abroad in 2011. takes to avoid an annual underspend. [108619] http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference- tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-263688 John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport’s (DCMS) expenditure against its departmental expenditure limit (DEL) from April 2009 to March 2012, is shown in the table. PRIME MINISTER £ million 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

April 189.1 171.5 336.9 Ministers: Codes of Practice May 182.3 251.5 199.3 June 254.3 259.5 271.3 Ms Harman: To ask the Prime Minister with reference July 177.6 198.4 264.6 to his oral answer of 30 April 2012, Official Report, August 161.4 173.6 137.8 columns 1241-2, on the Ministerial Code (Culture September 160.6 147.6 213.3 Secretary), if he will place in the Library a copy of the October 208.5 225.2 176.3 letter sent by the Cabinet Secretary and the Head of the November 137.6 107.4 158 Civil Service to all Departments on 25 April 2012 December 188 143 238.1 clarifying the rigorous procedures for handling cases of January 107.6 142.9 208.3 a quasi-judicial nature. [109138] February 179.8 196.3 224.4 March 222.6 80.8 376.2 Total 2,169.5 2,097.7 2,804.5 The Prime Minister: A copy has been placed in the Library of the House. 701W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 702W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Environment Agency region Site Biofuels: Pollution South East Fawley High Temperature Incinerator South West Peake (GB) Ltd Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Tythegston Gasification Plant Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information her Department holds on the level of (a) hexavalent chromium, (b) chromium, (c) titanium dioxide, (d) Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for particulates and (e) arsenic emitted to the atmosphere Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate from biomass plants in the UK in the latest year for she has made of the amount of (a) Strontium 90 and which figures are available. [108212] (b) Caesium 137 that was released in stack emissions and wood ash from biomass power stations in the UK Richard Benyon: DEFRA’s National Atmospheric in the last year for which figures are available. [108395] Emissions Inventory (NAEI) estimates emissions to the atmosphere of a wide range of air pollutants. The most Gregory Barker: Emissions from biomass power stations recent available estimates are for 2010, and are as follows. in England and Wales are regulated by the Environment All the data relate to emissions from non-domestic Agency. The agency has not made any such estimates combustion of wood and straw, and excludes open because these are anthropogenic radioisotopes that would burning of wood waste. not normally be present above trace quantities in biomass feedstock and so offer no potential threat to human health. (a) Emissions of hexavalent chromium from biomass plants were estimated at 16 tonnes, 0.4% of the total national emission. Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control (b) Emissions of chromium are estimated at 160 tonnes, 0.6% of the national total. The NAEI estimates that 10% of chromium is present in the hexavalent form in emissions from combustion Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for processes. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent progress (c) Emissions of titanium dioxide have not been assessed. her Department has made on developing new measures on the control of bovine tuberculosis. [107982] (d) The NAEI provides information on emissions of particulate matter in a number of size ranges. The emissions of particles less than 10 micrometers (PM ) were 5,700 tonnes and of those less Richard Benyon: In July 2011, DEFRA published a 10 Bovine TB Eradication Programme for England setting than 2.5 micrometers (PM2.5) were 3,200 tonnes. This represents 5% of UK emissions for both size fractions. out a package of measures to tackle the disease. Delivery (e) The emissions of arsenic to air were 130 tonnes, 1% of of the programme is continuing, including work on total UK emissions. both cattle and badger controls and development of vaccines. The programme is available at: Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13601-bovinetb- Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which (a) eradication-programme-110719.pdf incineration and (b) biomass plants are permitted to Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats burn wood containing chromated copper arsenate. [108213] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what the (a) Richard Benyon: There are 15 incinerators in England job title and (b) pay band was of each official, excluding and Wales that are permitted to burn wood coated with special advisers, recruited by her Department since May preservatives containing heavy metals, including chromated 2010 who was previously employed in any capacity by copper arsenate. No biomass plants are permitted to the (i) Conservative party or its elected representatives burn separately collected fractions of such wastes. The and (ii) Liberal Democrat party or its elected representatives; permitted sites are as follows: and whether their position was advertised publicly; [107256] Environment Agency region Site (2) what the (a) job title and (b) pay band was of Anglian Twinwoods Heat and Power Ltd each official, excluding special advisers, recruited by Anglian Huntingdon Waste to Energy her Department since May 2010 who previously held Plant an elected position as a member of the (i) Conservative Midlands Stoke Alternative Energy Centre party and (ii) Liberal Democrat party; and whether Yorkshire and North East Wilton 10 Power Station their position was advertised publicly. [107257] Yorkshire and North East Sandsfield Co-Incinerator Yorkshire and North East North Shields Waste to Energy Richard Benyon: To collect any such information Plant would require a search of all HR records which would Yorkshire and North East Port Clarence Waste Recovery involve disproportionate costs. Yorkshire and North East Yatts Biomass Energy Recovery Demonstration Plant Consultants Yorkshire and North East Seamer Carr Waste to Energy Plant Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Yorkshire and North East Kirk Sandall Thermal Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to Treatment Plant the answer of 30 April 2012, Official Report, column North West Ellesmere Port Incinerator 1336-7W, on consultants, what additional payments South East Fawley Energy From Waste Facility were made to IBM to conduct the feasibility study and assist in setting up the shared service centre. [108660] 703W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 704W

Richard Benyon: This information cannot be provided Industry Working Group, to agree a control strategy without incurring disproportionate cost. setting out what would happen should we get an outbreak of AHS. We have reached agreement with the Working Floods: Stoke on Trent Group on the control measures needed and expect to publish this control strategy shortly. Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many homes Manpower in Stoke-on-Trent were at high risk of flooding in the most recent period for which figures are available. Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for [108105] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many full-time equivalent employees (1) her Department employed in Richard Benyon: There are a total of 1,219 residential May 2010; and how many it employed at the latest properties at significant risk of flooding in Stoke-on-Trent. period for which figures are available; [108153] Food (2) have (a) left and (b) been recruited to her Department in the last two years. [108183] Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: Core DEFRA employed 2,560.36 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her full-time equivalent (FTE) employees on 31 May 2010 Department is taking to support the food industry and and 2,072.79 on 30 April 2012. food exports. [107869] In the last two years (i.e. 1 April 2010 to 31 March Richard Benyon: DEFRA works closely with the food 2012), 681.18 FTE employees left DEFRA. This figure industry to encourage innovation, competitiveness and includes 99.75 FTE legal staff who transferred from growth. The joint government-industry action plan, DEFRA to Treasury Solicitors on 31 August 2011. ‘Driving Export Growth in the Farming, Food and 364.31 FTE employees joined DEFRA between 1 April Drink Sector’, published in January, details how we will 2010 and 31 March 2012. This figure includes 101.40 work together to open up and take advantage of key FTE staff transferred to DEFRA from the regional markets to boost our economy and generate jobs. development agencies on 1 July 2011. DEFRA is working with other funders (Technology Strategy Board, Research Councils) and industry to Power Stations: Pollution boost innovation through collaborative research and development through investment in a £90 million Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Sustainable Agriculture and Food Innovation Platform. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she We recently held an innovation summit to increase has to reduce emissions to the atmosphere of (a) awareness of innovation support mechanisms available carcinogens and (b) particulates arising from power to the agri-food industry. stations. [108215] New opportunities in overseas markets are important to the UK’s long-term growth prospects for the sector Richard Benyon: Any combustion activity with a rated and, as such, the Minister of State, my right hon. thermal input of greater than 50 megawatts is subject to Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire integrated pollution prevention and control. The regulator (Mr Paice), has recently been to China to promote UK (the Environment Agency in England and Wales) is exports with the aim of opening up markets there. required to set emission limits for any pollutant likely to be emitted in significant quantities, basing those limits Equally important for promoting long-term growth on what can be achieved through the application of best is our aim to encourage young people to build careers in available techniques (BATs). The regulator has to review the food production industry. DEFRA has worked with those limits periodically as BATs develop. the food chain to facilitate the development of a skills action plan for the food chain, with the aim of making Risk Assessment the industry more attractive to young people and identifying skills required for the future food system. The Action Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Plan was launched last June. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what strategic or Horses: Infectious Diseases transitional risk registers in each area of policy are held by her Department; and if she will make a statement. [107478] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans her Richard Benyon: DEFRA’s 2010-11 Annual Report Department has to counter and prepare for a possible and Accounts contained a Statement on Internal Control outbreak of African horse disease in the UK. [107894] (page 55) Richard Benyon: The likelihood of the introduction http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/2011/07/26/annual- of African Horse Sickness (AHS) virus to the UK via report-accounts-2010-11/ legal trade in horses and other equidae is considered which included information on DEFRA’s risk and control very low, but should disease occur, we recognise that the framework and the effectiveness of DEFRA’s risk impact could be high. Any outbreak would be managed management. in accordance with DEFRA’s Contingency Plan for Each policy team takes a proportionate and appropriate Exotic Diseases of Animals, which is regularly tested. approach to assessing the risks in its area and discusses DEFRA has been working closely with representatives these frequently with Ministers, when advising them of of the equine sector, through a joint Government and policy options. 705W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 706W

Updated information on DEFRA’s risk management Norman Baker: The Department does not hold the and its key risks will be available in the 2012 Annual information requested. These are matters for the scheme Report and Accounts. promoter, Lancashire county council. Sheep Lost Property Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport has assessed the merits of sheep farming in less how many items of equipment valued at £10,000 or favoured areas. [107980] more her Department lost in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if she will make a statement. [108935] Richard Benyon: The Uplands Policy Review, published in March 2011, recognised the important role played by Norman Baker: The Department (including its seven sheep farms, particularly in relation to shaping the Executive agencies) has not lost any individual items of environment. This important role, particularly in the equipment valued at over £10,000 in the last two financial uplands, is recognised within Environmental Stewardship years. However, the Highways Agency has suffered incidents and appropriate payments are available. On 9 May of metal theft, details of which will be disclosed in the 2011, the National Sheep Association launched a report Agency’s 2012-13 Annual Report and Accounts which entitled ‘Complementary Role of Sheep In Less Favoured is due to be published at the end of June. Areas’. The report draws on the support of many other organisations with environmental and agricultural interests Manpower who agree that traditional sheep farming practices can bring a host of environmental, social, and economic benefits to these remote and disadvantaged areas. Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many full-time equivalent employees have (a) left UN Conference on Sustainable Development and (b) been recruited to her Department in the last two years. [108181] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions Norman Baker: The following figures are for the she has had with the Secretary of State for Education central Department and its seven Executive Agencies: on working with schools and organisations representing young people to consult on priorities for the Rio Earth (b) Employees Summit 2012; and if she will make a statement. [108325] (a) Employees left recruited to the Financial year the Department Department Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, (i) 2010-2011 1382.4 577.53 Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), is leading the (ii) 2011- 2012 1111.33 692.38 Government’s preparations for Rio+20; the Secretary The majority of the employees recruited were recruited of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member from within the civil service. for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has been involved, through the normal course of Cabinet business. Preparations for Rio+20 have involved extensive Midland Main Line consultation with, civil society organisations, including those representing young people. Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment she has made of the likely increase in (a) freight and (b) passenger capacity of TRANSPORT upgrading and then electrifying the Midland Mainline. [108609] A683 Mrs Villiers: Network Rail is assessing the business David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for case for upgrading and electrifying the Midland Main Transport when she expects the M6 to Heysham Link line which could support additional freight and passenger Road to be completed. [109310] capacity. The Department for Transport will announce overall decisions on rail investment in the period from Norman Baker: The latest information provided to 2014 to 2019 by the end of July. the Department by the scheme promoter—Lancashire county council—is that the scheme will be finished by Public Sector December 2015. This will require statutory procedures to be completed and the approval of the Secretary of State for Transport on the amendments to the orders. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many new public sector mutuals were created or David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for spun-off by her Department in (a) 2010-11 and (b) Transport how many (a) homes and (b) businesses 2011-12; and if she will make a statement. [108917] will be compulsorily purchased to facilitate the route of the M6 to Heysham Link Road; and how much on Norman Baker: In the Department for Transport, no average it will cost to buy each (i) home and (ii) new public sector mutuals were created or spun off in business. [109311] the financial years quoted. 707W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 708W

Officials are currently working closely with Cabinet Miss Chloe Smith: The Department’s total greenhouse Office colleagues on Better Business Models. DVLA is gas emissions in tonnes of CO2 equivalent (tCO2e) for developing a £100 million efficiency programme, VOSA the years specified are as follows: and DSA are transforming their provision of testing by taking it to the customer, and we are working on 2010-11 2011-12 detailed options for the business model for VCA. Energy 3,379.16 2,882.16 Rotherham Station Travel 78.14 58.83 Total 3,457.30 2,940.98 Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether Rotherham Central railway station will require structural modification to accommodate Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the tram-train announced by the Parliamentary Under- what measures his Department introduced to reduce its Secretary of State at her Department on 17 May 2012. carbon emissions in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [109248] [108568]

Norman Baker: Network Rail is currently designing Miss Chloe Smith: Since 2010, HM Treasury has two short low floor platforms for use by tram train achieved significant reductions through a programme services. It is not planned to reconstruct Rotherham of works and several initiatives to help meet its carbon Central which will continue to be served by existing reduction targets: services. Introduction of a Waste Management Strategy, including the Trade Unions recycling of batteries and food waste, removal of junk mail, and introduction of virtual printing to reduce paper wastage; Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Purchase of environmentally-friendly products wherever possible, including the disposable containers used in the Department’s on how many occasions trade union representatives canteen at 1 Horse Guards road, and aerated water taps to from (a) her Department and (b) each of its non- reduce water use; departmental public bodies have utilised paid facility time to represent an employee at a meeting or other Energy saving measures including lights being set to dim to 50% capacity outside of core hours, meeting room sensors set industrial relations matter in each of the last five years. to switch off after 15 (rather than 30) minutes of inactivity and [107333] adjusted to lower levels in infrequently accessed areas, the use of low-energy, long-life light bulbs, evening security patrols Norman Baker: Trade union representatives can represent tasked with checking that lights are switched off, and office an employee both formally and informally through a cleaning taking place during the day rather than at night; range of mediums, to discuss various issues. We do not Upgrades to the Building Management System (BMS) and record this information. controls, with adjusted settings during bank holidays and real time data available on energy usage on HM Treasury’s website; West Coast Main Line and Rationalisation of the Department’s estate and IT equipment David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for to reduce energy use and carbon footprint, with sustainable Transport what steps she is taking to open access to disposal of obsolete equipment. multiple operators on the West Coast Main Line link Projects planned for 2012 include low-carbon awareness from Carnforth to London. [109307] campaigns in 1 Horse Guards road, promotion of video conferencing rather than travel, and a move to closed Mrs Villiers: Open access or non-franchise passenger loop paper (where paper used on site is recycled and train operators (those who operate services purely on a turned back into paper which is delivered back to the commercial basis, i.e. not under either a franchise or a Department). concession agreement) are a matter for the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR). Companies which wish to run HM Treasury is currently developing a sustainability such services must apply to the ORR for the necessary plan which will outline its strategy and actions up to track access rights and to Network Rail for train paths 2015 for increasing sustainability and reducing carbon in the timetable. emissions further. The plans will be published in the Department’s Annual Report and Accounts. I understand that Alliance Rail is currently in discussion with the ORR with a view to start operating services from London Euston to Carlisle via Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Tax and the Cumbrian coast.

Vernon Coaker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the amount of corporation tax revenue TREASURY generated in Northern Ireland that is paid by companies Carbon Emissions with headquarters or registered offices in (a) London, (b) England, (c) Scotland and (d) Wales. [108624] Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his Department’s total level of carbon emissions Mr Gauke: The information requested is not readily was between (a) 1 April 2010 and 1 April 2011 and (b) available and could be obtained only at disproportionate 2 April 2011 and 1 April 2012. [108567] cost. 709W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 710W

Excise Duties: Fuels UK. A two-part research project, which is expected to be completed by June 2012, will inform further work in Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the this area. Exchequer how much revenue was generated for the Exchequer by fuel duty in the last year for which figures International Monetary Fund are available. [106813] Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Miss Chloe Smith: The latest outturn figure for fuel what assessment he has made of International duty was £27.3 billion in 2010-11 published in table Monetary Fund (IMF) plans to review the size of the ‘D.3: Current Receipts: OBR forecast’ of Budget 2012, New Arrangements to Borrow and the implementation HC1853. of the IMF quota change. [109107]

Financial Services: Education Mr Hoban: At the spring meetings in Washington in April 2012, a G20-led deal to increase IMF resources Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer by $430 billion was agreed. The IMF’s International if he will take steps to foster a savings culture in the Monetary and Financial Committee and the G20 also UK. [108675] reaffirmed the urgency of making the 2010 quota and governance reforms effective by the 2012 Annual Meetings, Mr Hoban: The Government’s savings strategy is which this year will be held in Tokyo from the 12 to based on the principles of freedom, fairness and 14 October. responsibility, so that it meets the needs of consumers As agreed by the G20 in South Korea in 2010, the while remaining effective and affordable. In particular, New Arrangements to Borrow are currently planned to the Government aims to encourage more lower and be rolled back when the IMF Quota and Governance middle income households to start saving and to save reforms are ratified by the required majority of member more, especially for the long term and retirement. countries. The UK ratified the reforms in Parliament in The Government has taken steps to support existing July 2011. savers and encourage new savers, including: 1. Promoting choice by providing flexibility to consumers in a Revenue and Customs competitive market. This Government introduced the Junior ISA, removed the effective requirement to annuitise at age 75, and announced at Budget 2012 that the Government will work with Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer industry to improve competitiveness and transparency in the ISA how much HM Revenue and Customs has earned market, including encouraging industry to make use of the through penalties since 31 January 2012. [108408] technological advances in how information and funds can be transferred to bring further reductions in the time taken to Mr Gauke: The HMRC Financial Accounts which transfer cash ISA between providers. The Government also welcomes and strongly supports the Independent Commission on Banking contain details of penalties accrued during the financial (ICB) recommendations to make it easier for personal customers, year are currently in the process of being prepared and small businesses and charities to switch their bank account. The audited. They are timetabled to be laid before Parliament Government is clear that the new switching proposals need to be on 27 June 2012. fully implemented by the industry by September 2013 and will The accounts will specify the revenue accrued, including monitor progress closely through quarterly interim reports. penalties, for the period 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012. 2. Promoting fairness in incentives to save by introducing Revenues are deemed to accrue evenly over the period automatic enrolment of employees into a pension scheme from October 2012, reforming the way pensions tax relief is restricted for which they are due. and indexing ISA contribution limits to inflation. The data will appear in the ‘Statement of Revenue, 3. Promoting personal responsibility within the saving, debt Other Income and Expenditure’within the Trust Statement, and protection system so individuals are equipped to exercise and the ‘Consolidated Statement of Comprehensive effective choice and plan for expected and unexpected events. Net Expenditure’ in the Resource Accounts (with specific This Government has introduced the Money Advice Service, detail in the accompanying note on ‘operating income’). which among other services provides a free financial ‘healthcheck’; asked an independent Steering Group to devise a suite of simple financial products to help increase the number of new participants Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in savings and protection insurance markets by providing (1) how many additional tax inspectors have been recruited straightforward, easy to understand products; and worked with by HM Revenue and Customs in each month since industry and consumer groups to establish a ‘default’ open market September 2011; [108626] option, which requires retirees to make an active choice about their provider and the shape of their annuity. (2) how many tax inspectors were employed by HM Revenue and Customs in each year since 2009. [108627] Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress the Money Advice Service has made in Mr Gauke: HMRC was created by the merger of its review of the provision of financial education in Inland Revenue and HM Customs and Excise in 2005 schools; and when he expects the review to be and “tax inspectors” is no longer a role within the published. [109106] merged organisation. However, following the £917 million reinvestment in Mr Hoban: The Money Advice Service is undertaking HMRC at the spending review 2010, the number of a strategic overview of the educational work of the staff tackling avoidance and evasion and fraud will financial services industry, to inform and improve the increase by around 2,500 full-time equivalent staff by provision of financial education for young people in the 2014-15. 711W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 712W

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer In addition, staff in front line roles overseas working if he will extend the use of 0345 numbers for telephone for the UK Border Agency (UKBA) as Entry Clearance calls made by the public to HM Revenue and Customs Officers (ECOs) or Managers (ECMs) are required to to all calls handled by its contact centre network. complete the ECM/ECO training course, which includes [108741] gender sensitivity issues such as on the policy and practice of forced marriage. There is also a forced Mr Gauke: I would refer the hon. Member to the marriage module in consular assistance training for answer I gave to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and staff in the UK and overseas. Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) on 17 May 2012, Official The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) is Report, column 301W. committed to a diverse and inclusive work force that represents modern Britain. All staff are expected to VAT complete diversity training which underlines the need to respect difference, including gender, and to create an David Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer inclusive working culture in which all are encouraged to what recent discussions he has had with independent develop their full potential. care providers about their VAT status. [108605] Iraq Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in the Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign public and private sectors as part of the process of and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to the policy development and delivery. answer of 23 April 2012, Official Report, columns The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings 752-3W, on the Arab Partnership Fund, what the (a) with external organisations, available at: objectives, (b) outcomes and (c) amounts of funding http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm are of the two projects undertaken under the auspices of the Arab Partnership Fund in Iraq to strengthen a David Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer free and balanced media and parliamentary capacity; whether arrangements are in place for small businesses and whether any follow-up projects are envisaged. to pay VAT on a monthly basis with regular adjustments [108245] made for outstanding debt. [108686] Alistair Burt: For the project to strengthen parliamentary Mr Gauke: The Annual Accounting Scheme allows capacity through support to the Finance Committee of businesses with an estimated VAT taxable turnover for the Iraqi Council of Representatives: the coming year of £1.35 million or less to spread their VAT payments equally over nine months, or pay by (a) The objective is to support the Finance Committee of the Iraqi Council of Representatives in improving its internal organisation, quarterly instalments towards their annual VAT bill. financial oversight, capacity for legislative scrutiny, and develop The instalments are based on the VAT liability from the its relations with the Board of Supreme Audit and other policy previous year. If there is a balance or repayment due committees. this will be settled at the end of the financial year. (b) The outcomes are: the internal restructuring of the committee The scheme also allows businesses to make additional and new committee strategy, new oversight processes, enhancement voluntary payments towards their end of year VAT of policy understanding including on banking sector reform, bills. At the end of the year, these businesses get two improved procedures to undertake questioning of finance ministry months (rather than the standard one month) in which officials, improved links with other parliamentary policy committees on financial oversight, and creation of a Scrutiny Unit within to submit their VAT return and any balancing payment. parliament. (c) The Arab Partnership Participation Fund provided £155,729.03 of funding for this project, which is part of a larger four-year Conflict Prevention Pool funded programme to strengthen the FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE capacity of the Council of Representatives. The programme will continue (funded through the Conflict Prevention Pool) until the next Iraqi parliamentary elections. Diplomatic Service: Training For the project to strengthen a free and balanced media through support to the Iraqi National Public Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Service Broadcaster: Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what education and training his Department provides for its staff in (a) The objective is to increase the capacity of Iraq women’s rights. [108094] Media Network (IMN) for editorial independence and impartiality in accordance with its public service Mr Bellingham: The FCO provides job-related training broadcasting (PSB) mandate. to staff covering international human rights issues, (b) The outcomes are: (i) review under way of the including women’s rights. There are opportunities for structure and internal communications of the IMN FCO staff working on conflict issues to participate in against its mandate, (ii) review under way of the curriculum, cross-Whitehall training on women, peace and security training facilities and procedures of IMN staff to ensure including the HMG Conflict Foundation Course. Women’s better understanding of PSB and of Iraqi legal frameworks, rights also feature in some of the training and development (iii) development under way of online staff training opportunities organised individually by FCO Posts and modules along the lines of those developed by the BBC Directorates on countries, regions and broader thematic Academy, (iv) review under way of the code of conduct issues. and development of training modules, (v) introduction 713W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 714W of multi-media platforms and review of the strategic The deterioration in security conditions in the northern goals of IMN’s online forums to produce more dynamic regions of Mali has also limited the delivery of and participatory content. humanitarian assistance. This is a rapidly evolving situation (c) The Arab Partnership Participation Fund provided and we are monitoring the issue of humanitarian access £234,025 for this project, which is part of a wider closely. programme of reforms of the IMN. We will monitor We cannot say precisely how many aid organisations this progress carefully. have left since March 2012 but, at the time of the coup Israel d’état in March, we know that the UN World Food Programme (WFP) was one of many organisations that had to close their offices in the north of Mali as a result Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for of insecurity and unrest. The WFP is working on ways Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions to guarantee safe conditions for the return of their staff he has had with his EU counterparts on a total ban on and the resumption of aid to those affected by conflict settlement trade. [108726] in Kidal, Timbuktu and Gao. Alistair Burt: Our position on Israeli settlements in We understand that agreement was reached over the the Occupied Palestinian Territories is clear: they are weekend of 19-20 May to extend the mandate of the illegal under international law, an obstacle to peace and interim government for a further 12 months. However, make a two-state solution, with Jerusalem as a shared the status of this agreement remains unclear following capital, harder to achieve. We constantly urge the Israeli the attack on President Traore on 21 May. The UK authorities to cease all settlement activity. continues to monitor the situation in Bamako. We condemn the latest violence and continue to engage The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth actively—including through our recently reopened Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond embassy—with the Economic Community of West African (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and I have regular discussions States (ECOWAS), regional governments and our with our EU counterparts on these issues. The EU international partners, to support a swift return to Foreign Affairs Council most recently discussed issues democratic, constitutional government. relating to the Middle East Peace Process, including settlements, on 14 May. In the meeting’s conclusions, the EU and its member states North Africa and Middle East “reaffirmed their commitment to fully and effectively implement existing EU legislation and the bilateral arrangements applicable to settlement products. The Council underlines the importance of Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for the work being carried out together with the Commission in this Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what programmes regard.” his Department supports in North Africa and the Full text of the conclusions may be found at: Middle East on (a) women’s social and political http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_Data/docs/ participation, (b) women’s health and (c) reduction of pressdata/EN/foraff/130195.pdf female genital mutilation. [108095] We regularly discuss with EU partners our assessment of Israeli settlement activity. There is currently no specific Alistair Burt: The UK is supporting the empowerment proposal for a total ban on settlement trade. of women in the political, economic and social life of Mali the middle east and north Africa (MENA). As part of the UK’s national action plan to implement UN Security Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Council Resolution 1325 on Women Peace and Security Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to we have launched a specific action plan for the MENA the answer of 30 April 2012, Official Report, column region. 543W, on Mali, what recent assessment he has made of (a) The UK is supporting women’s political participation the humanitarian situation in Mali; what information in the MENA region. For example, the UK’s Arab his Department holds on the number of international Partnership is funding an Electoral Reform International aid organisations that have withdrawn since the military Services programme in Egypt to promote the participation coup in March 2012; what recent discussions he has had of women candidates in Egyptian local council elections. on the restoration of democracy and civilian rule when The tri-Departmental Conflict Pool (FCO/DFID/MOD) the agreement to hand power temporarily to President is supporting women’s participation in the Libyan political Dioncounda Traore runs out on 21 May 2012; and if he process, co-funding the first ever Women’s Convention will make a statement. [108199] in Tripoli in November 2011, and programmes to mobilise women to form networks and common platforms to Mr Jeremy Browne: Reports suggest that over 300,000 advocate locally and nationally for greater social, economic men, women and children have been uprooted by the and political inclusion. The UK’s DFID-led bilateral current crisis in Mali. Ongoing conflict in the country is aid programmes in Yemenand Palestine are also working exacerbating the already worsening food and nutrition for women’s empowerment. For example DFID’s support crisis that is affecting some 18 million people across the to the Yemeni Social Fund for Development (SFD), is Sahel. The UK is supporting, where local conditions contributing to increasing girls’ participation and access allow, the work of UN and international non-governmental to education, and improving economic opportunities organisations to provide humanitarian assistance for for women through micro finance and labour intensive approximately 68,000 individuals. We continue to monitor works projects. In the Occupied Palestinian Territories the situation and are in close contact with agencies (OPTs), DFID’s state-building programme is boosting working on the ground. citizen’s rights by helping the Palestinian Authority to 715W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 716W be more accountable and responsive to the public, Peter Luff [holding answer 22 May 2012]: A decision including improving their services for female victims of on the status of the second aircraft carrier will be made violence. in the next strategic defence and security review in 2015. (b) The Foreign and Commonwealth Office does not An £8 billion headroom has been established in the directly support women’s health programmes, but the Equipment and Equipment and Support programme UK’s bilateral aid programmes are working to improve over the next 10 years having balanced the Ministry of women’s health in Yemen and Palestine. For example, Defence budget. UK support to the Palestinian Authority (PA) and the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) provides Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for essential services, including female healthcare, to Palestinians Defence pursuant to the Statement of 10 May 2012, living in the OPTS and Palestinian refugees. In 2011, Official Report, column 141, on carrier strike capability, our support to UNRWA helped provide maternal health (1) from which year he proposes that the net additional care to 263,000 women, and our funding to the PA operating cost averaging about £60 million per year will supports over 2,000 women a year to give birth assisted be incurred; and for how many years; [109062] by skilled health personnel. In Yemen, our support will (2) from which budget he proposes that the net also help deliver access to basic health care for 50,000 additional operating cost will be met. [109087] girls and women and access to health care for approximately 38,000 women. Peter Luff: As stated by the Secretary of State for (c) We are clear that the practice of female genital Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede mutilation (FGM) needs to end. While we do not have and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), in his statement of any specific FGM programmes in the MENA region, 10 May 2012, Official Report, columns 141-42, on Carriers, we are making a contribution to global measures to the net additional operating costs estimated to be around eliminate FGM through our core support to UN £60 million relate to the second aircraft carrier. A organisations working on this issue—the United Nations decision on the use of the second aircraft carrier will be Population Fund, the United Nations Children’s Fund made in the next Strategic Defence and Security Review and the World Health Organisation. in 2015. Yemen Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Defence what items were ordered by his Department and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) money, (b) training, relating to the conversion of UK aircraft carriers to (c) personnel, (d) security equipment and (e) other take catapult and arrestor gear. [109076] support for security assistance his Department has provided to Yemenin (i) 2012 and (ii) 2011; and what such support Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence did not order he plans to provide to Yemen in 2012-13. [108650] any equipment as part of the investigations into the conversion of the operational Queen Elizabeth Class Alistair Burt: As part of the British Government’s Aircraft Carrier. The investigations focused on the package of measures to support the Government of development of a new Carrier Variant-based ship design, Yemen, we have agreed a detailed programme to assist a revised build strategy and development of both in-build them with improvement in aviation security at Sana’a and refit conversion options. This work was undertaken International airport. This programme includes the by the Aircraft Carrier Alliance and Naval Design provision of aviation security equipment and training Partnership in the UK, supported by the US Department which the British Government has been rolling out of Defence. since 2011. We do not comment on the detail of wider security assistance. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate the number of industrial Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign jobs that were reliant on the conversion of the UK’s and Commonwealth Affairs whether the airport scanners aircraft carriers to take catapult and arrestor gear. promised to Yemen in 2011 were delivered; and when [109078] such delivery took place. [108651] Peter Luff: In the absence of a contractual commitment Alistair Burt: As part of the British Government’s to conversion, no jobs could be said to be reliant on the package of measures to support the Government of work. Yemen, we have agreed a detailed programme to help to improve aviation security at Sana’a International airport. Armed Forces: Mental Illness This programme includes the provision of aviation security equipment and training which the British Government Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for has been rolling out since 2011. We do not comment on Defence what steps his Department is taking to combat the detail of wider security assistance. stigmatisation of mental illness in the armed forces. [108494]

DEFENCE Mr Robathan: We take the mental well-being of our Aircraft Carriers people very seriously and have put systems in place for those that need help to obtain it without recourse. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Service personnel, and their families receive education Defence whether the operation of two active carriers is on the signs and symptoms of mental health difficulties budgeted for in his Department’s post 2015 Equipment and are signposted to help and support by the chain of and Support budget. [108870] command, and the relevant welfare organisations. In 717W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 718W addition, through initiatives such as peer-led Trauma armed forces. As a result such posts were designated as Risk Management (TRiM) sessions, individuals are retired officer posts and only open to former service encouraged to speak freely about their experiences following personnel. a traumatic incident. This can be followed up with Although some retired officer posts remain, they have, in-theatre medical teams and during decompression in in the main, been replaced by posts designated as Military Cyprus. Support Function. These no longer limit applications I am satisfied that through a wide range of education to former service personnel in recognition that civil and material and the proactive campaign to remove the servants can also acquire the specialist knowledge or stigma associated with mental health difficulties, any experience to compete for these posts. member of the armed forces suffering with this debilitating The following table lists the number of retired officer condition is now more likely to come forward and posts since 31 December 2003, this being the only obtain the help they need. period for which this information is available in this Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for format: Defence what steps his Department are taking to improve Total number of retired officer the screening, diagnosis and treatment of mental illness As at 31 December posts in the armed forces. [108498] 2003 895 Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) takes 2004 768 the issue of mental health very seriously, and we are 2005 650 always looking for ways to improve the already excellent 2006 564 treatment and care that we provide for those who need 2007 461 it. We have a close working relationship with the King’s 2008 360 Centre for Military Health Research (KCMHR) at King’s 2009 301 College, London, which undertakes a range of research 2010 244 aimed at understanding and improving the mental health of the UK armed forces. It currently includes a major 2011 197 study, funded by the US Department of Defence, of a possible mental health screening tool using UK armed Armed Forces: Pay forces personnel returning from operations. As well as carrying out or commissioning our own Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for research, we closely monitor clinical advances and Defence how many service personnel have been accidentally developments in the diagnosis and treatment of mental overpaid in Scotland in each of the last five years; how health conditions, both in the UK and internationally, much was repaid in each year and what the highest in order to ensure that patients receive the most effective amount repaid was. [109082] and efficient care. In accordance with the recommendations of my hon. Mr Robathan: This information is not held in the Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr format requested and could be provided only at a Murrison)’s ’Fighting Fit’ Report, published in October disproportionate cost. 2010, additional resources are also being allocated by MOD and the Department of Health to improve the Armed forces: Schizophrenia mental health care provided to both serving and ex-service personnel. Key among these are the commissioning of an extra 30 whole-time equivalent NHS mental health Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for professionals to deliver improved access to NHS mental Defence what assessment he has made of levels of health services to veterans, and the launch in March last schizophrenia in the armed forces. [108497] year of a professional 24-hour helpline for current and ex-service personnel and their families. Additionally, we Mr Robathan: The number of armed forces personnel are currently trialling use by the service community of to have been diagnosed with schizophrenia is small. the Big White Wall, an online early intervention service According to data collated by the Defence Analytical for people in psychological distress. An e-learning package Services and Advice (DASA), between 2007 and 2011 has been launched to help civilian GPs understand the (earliest and latest dates for which verified data are needs of the military, their families and ex-service personnel. available) 108 UK armed forces personnel had an initial We are also introducing mental health assessments into assessment of either schizophrenic, schizotypal or delusional routine service medical examinations and into discharge disorders at a Ministry of Defence Department of medicals, which are currently being introduced on a Community Mental Health (DCMH) or MOD in-patient regional basis. care contractor.

Armed Forces: Officers Arms Trade Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many people were employed in the Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Retired Officer Corps on 31 December in each of the with reference to the answer of 30 April 2012, Official last 10 years for which figures are available. [108705] Report, column 1134W, how many of his staff work on export promotion in support of the UK Trade and Mr Robathan: It was previously the case that some Investment Defence and Security Organisation; and posts in the civil service were designated as requiring what the budget was for (a) their salaries and (b) specialist knowledge or experience of service in the other costs in 2011-12. [108720] 719W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 720W

Mr George Howarth: UK Trade and Investment Defence Manning Manning and Security Organisation (UKTI DSO), led by Lord shortfall shortfall Green, has overall responsibility within Government as at as at Recruiting Recruited for trade promotion. However, UKTI DSO works very January April target during closely with the Ministry of Defence (MOD) whose 2011 2012 2011-121 2011-12 contribution can be critical to the success of an industry-led Royal Regt -402 -354 671 641 export campaign. A wide variety of support is provided of Scotland2 from across the Department. Records on how many 1st Battalion -53 -58 198 143 staff are engaged in supporting UKTI DSO are not Scots Guards centrally held. Royal Scots -33 -78 43 25 There is no central budget for export support. The Dragoon cost of supporting a particular export campaign is Guards 3 funded by the business unit providing the support where 19 Regt RA +72 +48 40 40 there is a defence benefit in doing so, in accordance with 1 Recruiting targets do not equate directly to the number of trained individuals necessary to ensure full manning of units. They are HM Treasury rules. Alternatively the costs of support based on a number of criteria which will include the ability to recruit are charged back to UKTI DSO or to industry. in particular areas, the share of the funded number of trained There is a permanent team of two in the MOD soldiers allocated to each arm and service and the resources responsible for export support policy and direct engagement available. The Royal Regt of Scotland would have required around 1,000 new recruits during 2011-12 to return to full manning (taking with UKTI DSO. There are also two senior civil servant account of outflow and those recruits who would not complete (SCS) posts—at pay band one and two—who are training), but the target was reduced to one considered more responsible for co-ordinating the Department’s export achievable. effort. The pay range for each post per annum is: 2 The Royal Regiment of Scotland (The Scottish Division), consisting of the Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion the Royal SCS pay band 2: Minimum £82,900, Maximum £162,500 Regiment of Scotland (1 SCOTS); the Royal Highland Fusiliers, 2nd SCS pay band 1: Minimum £58,200, Maximum £117,750 Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (2 SCOTS); the Black B2: Minimum £49,860, Maximum £59,535 Watch, 3rd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (3 SCOTS); the Highlanders, 4th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (4 C2: Minimum £30,428, Maximum £36,333 SCOTS); the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 5th Battalion The The MOD can charge a Commercial Export Levy to Royal Regiment of Scotland (5 SCOTS) has one recruiting target offset costs incurred by the Department in supporting which is not broken down to the Battalions named. Newly trained export campaigns. Scottish Regiment recruits are allocated to the Battalion where the demand is greatest. 3 Army The manning surpluses against 19 Regt RA are due in large part to preparation for deployment to Afghanistan and the addressing of some structural changes. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) which (a) infantry and (b) armoured units his Carbon Emissions Department plans to (i) abolish and (ii) merge in the next 12 months; and which such units are based in Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales; [108535] Defence what measures his Department introduced to (2) what criteria his Department uses when deciding reduce its carbon emissions in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and which infantry and armoured units to abolish and (c) 2012. [108574] merge; [108642] Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has a (3) when he expects the review of the future structure varied programme of work to reduce carbon emissions of the Army to close. [108643] including boiler optimisation, lighting upgrades, adjusting heating times to reflect building occupancy, minimum/ Nick Harvey: The Army is undertaking a study into maximum temperature mandates, weekend and holiday its future size and structure, the outcome of which we shutdowns, IT and electrical equipment reductions and expect to announce once decisions have been made. rationalisation, staff engagement and behavioural Until then it is not possible to comment on which campaigns. specific units may be affected. In 2010-11 (the last year for which figures are available) the MOD exceeded the 10% carbon emission reduction Army: Scotland commitment on the civil office estate, by achieving a 14.7% reduction. In addition the department also exceeded Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sustainable Operations on the Government estate Defence what the (a) recruitment targets and (b) levels targets, achieving a 21.4% reduction against the carbon of recruitment were for (i) The Royal Scots Borderers, emissions from the office estate target of 12.5% and a (ii) The Royal Highland Fusiliers, (iii) The Black 24% reduction against the carbon emissions from vehicles’ Watch, (iv) The Highlanders, (v) The Argyll and target of 15%. Sutherland Highlanders, (vi) 1st Battalion Scots, (vii) The MOD is now working toward the new Greening The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards and (viii) 19th Government Commitment of a 25% reduction in emissions Regiment Royal Artillery in the latest period for which from the whole estate and business related transport by figures are available. [106754] 2015. Chief Scientific Advisers Mr Robathan [holding answer 14 May 2012]: The following table shows numbers recruited (excluding officers) Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for for each of the named units in recruiting year 2011-12 Defence for what reasons his Department downgraded and the manning shortfalls that existed before and after the post of Chief Scientific Adviser from a 4-star post that period. to a 3-star post. [108424] 721W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 722W

Peter Luff [holding answer 21 May 2012]: The change Mr Philip Hammond: The investigation remains open. to Director General reflects a decision to reduce the Active inquiries are not being conducted, but if relevant post’s level of executive responsibility and, in future, to information comes to light it will be investigated. I increase its focus on advisory responsibilities. regret to say that the person responsible for the leak has The post will remain one of the most influential not been identified. within the MOD with the post-holder being directly accountable to Ministers and to the Permanent Secretary. Freedom of Information

Consultants Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many times his Department has used a qualified exemption to withhold answers with relation Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to Freedom of Information requests in each of the last how much his Department spent on external consultants, five years; and on what subjects. [108862] including management consultants, in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [107493] Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) submits statistical information on the use of exemptions to the Peter Luff: In 2010-11 the Ministry of Defence (MOD), Ministry of Justice which is published on its website. including MOD’s trading fund agencies, spent £26 million The following figures are taken from the annual on consultancy contracts (as defined by the Cabinet exemptions tables (Table 5 2007-09 and Table 10 2010-11). Office)—about one third of what was spent in 2009-10. The figures represent the total number of times all of This figure includes expenditure on management the qualified exemptions have been applied. consultants. The final out-turn on 2011-12 external consultancy is Number of qualified exemptions1 not yet available. 2011 391 Expenditure on consultancy is now published annually 2010 259 in UK Defence Statistics. 2009 199 2008 238 Defence: Procurement 2007 283 1 More than one exemption may be applied to any one request. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Due to the scope of MOD business, the Department Defence whether his Department’s equipment budget receives requests for information on a wide variety of will increase by one per cent above inflation in each subjects. It would only be possible to provide the subject financial year from 2015 onwards. [108994] of each of the requests to which qualified exemptions have been applied at disproportionate cost. Peter Luff: In Planning Round 2012 we assumed that the Department’s spending on equipment and equipment Harrier Aircraft support would increase by 1% above inflation in each financial year from 2015. Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will give consideration to reversing the Devonport Dockyard decision to transfer the UK’s Harrier warplanes to the US. [108250]

Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: The Harrier was a flexible and capable Defence what proportion of the annual budget of HMNB aircraft which served the nation well. However, owing Devonport has been written off as a (a) loss and (b) to the reduction in the size of the Harrier fleet to 32 theft in the last three years for which figures are available. aircraft in 2009 under the previous Government it was [108006] unable to achieve sustained operations in Afghanistan and maintain an adequate contingent capability for the Peter Luff: The proportion of the budget of Her unexpected on its own. Only the Tornado could do this Majesty’s Naval Base Devonport written off as a result and sustaining fleets of three types of aircraft was of losses and theft combined accounted for less than 1% unaffordable. We accepted that this decision would of the annual budget for financial years 2009-10, 2010-11, create a gap in carrier strike capability until the end of and 2011-12. the decade. The sale has been completed and the Government does not intend to reverse the decision to Disclosure of Information sell the Harrier fleet to the US Government.

Iraq Conflict Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to his answer of 7 March 2012, Official Report, column 780W,on departmental disclosure Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence of information, if he will publish any interim findings (1) what medical conditions are more prevalent amongst of the inquiry into the unauthorised disclosure of the veterans of the second Iraq war; [R] [108363] letter between the former Secretary of State and the (2) what (a) potential and (b) actual causes of Prime Minister which appeared in The Daily Telegraph ill-health have been associated with service in Iraq. [R] on 28 September 2010. [108829] [108365] 723W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 724W

Mr Robathan: While we hold information on medical Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for conditions affecting our service personnel, it is not Defence how many full-time equivalent employees have possible to attribute these to a particular deployment. (a) left and (b) been recruited to his Department in However, we will shortly be beginning a long term study the last two years. [108175] covering operations in Iraq and Afghanistan which will mirror the ongoing study into the health of veterans of Mr Robathan: The following table provides information the first Gulf war. As with the ongoing study, the results on the total number of civil servants joining and leaving of this new study will be published regularly. the Ministry of Defence, and its trading funds, in the This ongoing study published its latest findings on 31 last two financial years: March 2012, and can be found at: 2010-11 2011-12 www.dasa.mod.uk This found that there was no statistically significant Inflow 1,940 1,330 difference in the total number of deaths between Gulf Outflow 4,980 11,690 veterans and service personnel who had not served in the first Gulf war; and the number of disease related Military Aircraft: Training deaths was significantly lower among Gulf veterans than among those who had not served in the first Gulf war. Finally, both groups of veterans were at a lower John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence risk of dying than the general UK population. how many trainee pilots are being held over and not on flying training in the (a) Navy, (b) RAF and (c) Army; when he expects all such recruits will complete Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft or resume their training; and if he will estimate the total cost to the taxpayer of holding over such recruits Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for in each of the next three years. [108701] Defence whether he consulted his French counterpart prior to cancelling the order for F35 aeroplanes using Mr Robathan: A trainee pilot is considered on hold catapult machinery on future UK aircraft carriers. when they are between flying training courses. As of 18 [107859] April 2012 the number of trainee pilots on hold in the flying training pipeline was as follows: Mr Philip Hammond: Discussions on the Carrier Royal Navy: 80 project between the UK and France have been held at Army: 41 both ministerial and official level. The decision to procure Royal Air Force: 214 the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) variant Trainee pilots are expected to recommence training of the F35 does not affect our continued close co-operation between June 2012 and August 2014. Depending on with France. It has been our intention since the Lancaster individual stages in the training pipeline, we expect House treaty to co-ordinate carrier movement with the these trainees to start emerging combat ready between French Navy to ensure that at least one European 2014 and 2018. carrier group is available to support international operations, and this has not changed. There is no extra cost of holding trainees in the pipeline, as they are part of the funded strength of their service and are redeployed to other duties. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects sea trials of the F35b aircraft to commence. [109074] Military Decorations

Peter Luff: F35B sea trials have already commenced Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for and are well advanced in the United States. Defence (1) if he will make it his policy to award the Accumulated Campaign Service Medal 2011 to all members As stated in the Secretary of State for Defence’s of HM Armed Forces who served for two years in statement to the House on 10 May 2012, Official Report, combat operations, regardless of when they left HM columns 140-53, we expect flying from the QE to commence Armed Forces; [107454] in 2018, but no exact date in that year has been set for when the UK sea trials will commence. (2) whether he plans to extend the award criteria for the Accumulated Campaign Service Medal 2011 to military personnel who have left HM Armed Forces Manpower before 1 January 2008; and if he will make a statement; [107455] Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) for what reasons the award criteria for the Defence how many full-time equivalent employees his Accumulated Campaign Service Medal 2011 have been Department employed in May 2010; and how many it restricted to only those members of HM Armed Forces employed in the latest period for which figures are who served on or after before 1 January 2008; and if he available. [108158] will make a statement. [107456]

Mr Robathan: Information on the number of employees Mr Robathan: The qualifying period for the new in the Ministry of Defence and its trading funds is Accumulated Campaign Service Medal 2011 was set at compiled on 1 April each year. As at 1 April 2010 there 720 days instead of the 1,080 days required for the were 85,850 full-time equivalent civilian employees. This original Accumulated Campaign Service Medal. This has steadily reduced to 70,940 as at 1 April 2012. was because, despite an increase in operational 725W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 726W commitments and tempo in recent years, harmony Mr Robathan: I refer my hon. Friend to my written guidelines meant that it was taking longer for individuals statement of 27 March 2012, Official Report, columns to earn this recognition for repeat tours of duty. 116-19WS, in which I explained that the future requirement The need for change was underlined by the end of for Defence Community Police Officers has been carefully residential tours in Northern Ireland when Operation reviewed against other competing priorities. Community Banner ended in July 2007. Lengthy operational tours support activity on a number of Defence families’ estates there had contributed significantly to the 1,080 days is already successfully provided by local police forces, required to earn the original Accumulated Campaign and we have concluded, subject to consultation with the Service Medal. The date of 1 January 2008 was chosen Defence Police Federation, that we should adopt this as the start date for the new medal following the final model more widely, allowing the withdrawal of most awards of the General Service Medal 1962 with clasp MOD Police Defence Community Police Officers in (Northern Ireland) in 2007. Great Britain. We do not believe this change would affect the delivery of the Armed Forces Covenant. I recognise that whenever a change to medal qualifying requirements is made there will be some who will not Nimrod Aircraft benefit from the change. I am satisfied that the arrangements now adopted represent the right approach to the changing Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for demands on our servicemen and women over time. Defence whether his Department has assessed any implications arising from the Haddon Cave report on Military Police the loss of the Nimrod Xv230 for the safety management of Royal Navy (a) Vanguard class and (b) other Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for submarines. [109009] Defence how many Ministry of Defence police officers are employed (a) at HMNB Devonport and (b) within Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport constituency. encouraged all those involved in the submarine programme [108007] to consider the implications of Haddon-Cave’s findings and recommendations for their own safety management arrangements. In common with Defence as a whole, the Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence keeps security submarine programme is adopting a more rigorous at all sites under constant review to ensure that civil approach to the recognition of safety duty holders. In policing resources are used in an effective and proportional another significant development, there has been an manner. The number of Ministry of Defence Police improvement in MOD regulation of safety through the (MDP) officers deployed at Devonport, and within the creation of the Defence Safety and Environment Authority, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport constituency, are within which the Defence Maritime Regulator and the commensurate with the current tasking levels. Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator have specific remits I am withholding the number of officers deployed at for the submarine programme. This is consistent with and around HMNB Devonport, as the disclosure would, the creation of the Military Aviation Authority as directly or would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness recommended by Haddon-Cave. or security of the armed forces. It would also be likely to prejudice law enforcement at those locations. Queen’s Dragoon Guards

Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the potential Defence what plans he has for the 1st The Queen’s for Ministry of Defence Police Officers to take a greater Dragoon Guards. [108564] role in delivering security at Ministry of Defence sites in Plymouth. [108026] Nick Harvey: The Army is undertaking a study into its future size and structure, the outcome of which we Mr Robathan: I refer my hon. Friend to the written expect to announce when decisions have been taken. statement I made on 27 March 2012, Official Report Until then it is not possible to comment on which columns 116-19WS. We will be taking a flexible approach specific units may be affected. to the implementation of the changes to our future civil Redundancy policing requirement including those in the Devonport area. This will ensure that the best possible use will be made of MOD police at those defence sites where there Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence is a clear requirement for constabulary powers as part how many of his Department’s employees have been of the overall protective security arrangements. made redundant in the last two years. [108067] Safeguarding Defence sites, people and assets remain Mr Robathan: In respect of Ministry of Defence of paramount importance to the MOD and we would (MOD) civil servants, paid release is used as part of never contemplate changes that would place these in normal work force management. Voluntary terms are jeopardy. offered in order to reduce surplus staffing levels and, ultimately, as a means of avoiding or minimising Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for compulsory redundancies. The numbers of MOD civil Defence whether he has assessed the potential effects of servants leaving over the last two years reflect the MOD’s reducing the number of defence community police need to reduce civilian headcount in response to the officers on the delivery of the Armed Forces Covenant. strategic defence and security review and other work to [108361] balance the Defence budget. The following table shows 727W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 728W the total numbers of paid releases (both voluntary Relocated large data centre to new low-carbon facility release and redundancy) over the last two financial Installed improved and additional video conferencing facilities years within the Ministry of Defence and its trading Implemented lower-carbon fleet funds. 2011 Number Replaced printers, scanners and copiers with fewer multi-function devices FY 2010-11 520 Launched estate rationalisation programme (ongoing) FY 2011-12 6,870 Lifted server/comms room minimum cooling temperatures Revised policy on office heating and cooling times and temperatures Veterans: Prisoners Challenged and removed excess office equipment (fridges, fans etc.) Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Expanded installation of Automatic Meter Readers to improve Defence what discussions he has had with the Secretary monitoring, using data to challenge excess consumption and of State for Justice on the rehabilitation of ex-servicemen address adverse trends in prison. [109129] Consolidated IT servers Increased number of local energy champions (now 800 across Mr Robathan: Ministry of Defence officials work estate) closely with officials in the Ministry of Justice with 2012 to date regards to the issue of ex-service personnel in the criminal justice system. Embedded sustainability within DWP policy and project development Reviewed estate plant end-of-life replacement programmes re energy opportunities WORK AND PENSIONS Revised methodology for investment in new low-carbon technologies Atos Healthcare Launched improved energy database to improve reporting and transparency Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Reviewed opportunities to reduce standby timings on printers and Pensions with reference to the answer of 1 May Official DWP Executive Team signed up to a number of sustainability 2012, to the hon. Member for Cardiff West, pledges Report, column 1407W, on Atos, when each contract between his Department and Atos was most recently Further details of the Department’s vision and proposals renewed or extended. [107220] on carbon reduction are outlined in its Carbon Management Plan, available on the Department’s website. Chris Grayling: Regarding the five DWP contracts A refreshed Plan will be published later this year. with Atos the dates for the most recent contract renewals or extensions are as follows; Children: Maintenance

Policy area Most recent contract re-let or extension Mr Bacon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Medical Services This contract was most recently extended and Pensions with reference to the answer of 1 May 2012, in November 2010 Official Report, column 1411W,on the Child Maintenance Tell Us Once—Tell Us This contract was most recently extended and Enforcement Commission, what the substance was Once Release A in August 2011 of each of the changes made to the contract between enGage (Government This contract was most recently extended Tata Consulting Services and the Child Maintenance Gateway) in March 2011 and Enforcement Commission since 2009. [108283] Occupational Health This contract has not been renewed or extended since its original award Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Community Action This contract was most recently extended Programme in January 2012 Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Carbon Emissions to write to my hon. Friend with the information requested and I have seen the response. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Noel Shanahan: Work and Pensions what steps his Department took to In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the reduce its carbon emissions in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary (c) 2012. [108578] of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner. Chris Grayling: The key measures DWP introduced You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, with to reduce carbon emissions in 2010, 2011 and 2012 are reference to the Answer of 1 May 2012, Official Report, column as follows: 1411W,on the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, what the substance was of each of the changes made to the 2010 contract between Tata Consulting Services and the Child Maintenance Installed a large Combined Heat and Power unit in DWP’s and Enforcement Commission since 2009.(108283] largest building The five key contract changes made to the contract between New staff awareness campaign on energy and travel reduction Tata Consulting Services (TCS) and the Commission since 2009 (ongoing) are: Continued installation of ’spend-to-save’ investment measures CCN001—The introduction of contractual clauses relating to across estate fraud management with no impact to contract value. 729W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 730W

CCN002—Amendments to the procedure for managing contract every individual instance rather than the aggregated changes, an agreement to a number of change requests and a figures our Management Information system presents. revised implementation plan. All figures routinely reported within the DWP represent CCN003—Amendment to reflect transition from time and mean, rather than median, averages. materials terms to a fixed price term to complete supplier testing and consequential changes to the services to be provided. The relevant mean figures are as follows: New governance and change management arrangements were First contact (jobseekers allowance new claims—April created. 2012—operational month (7 April to 4 May 05) CCN004—An amendment to reflect changes to the duration Average wait time to answer: 2 minutes, 45 seconds of the maintenance agreement for the TCS banking software package with no impact to contract value. Please note, these figures will also include calls relating CCN005—Amendments to the criteria used by the Commission to IS new claims. for accepting the conclusion of certain phases of testing and JSA inquiries (jobseekers allowance existing claims)—April an agreement that TCS will support three months of testing at 2012—operational month (7 April to 4 May) no additional cost. Average wait time to answer: 3 minutes, 59 seconds Employment Schemes Please note that figures for April will have been significantly impacted by both increased seasonal demand Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for at the start of the new business year and condensed Work and Pensions how many employers have (a) demand following bank holidays and so do not necessarily applied for and (b) secured funding from his Department provide representative figures of CCS performance under to recruit people who have been unemployed for six the conditions encountered during the majority of the months or more in (i) Birmingham and (ii) England in operational year. the last 12 months. [108499] All figures represent wait time from customer entry into the relevant queue excluding any time spent progressing Chris Grayling: No payments have been secured by through any messaging presented prior to the queue employers as part of DWP-funded employment schemes being reached. Figures for both service lines will include in the last 12 months to recruit people, including wage all calls received including inappropriate/misdirected incentives for which the earliest eligibility would be contact. eight weeks after the launch of the Youth Contract on 2 April. Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Incapacity Benefit Pensions what the length of time waited by the top 85 percentile of callers to the jobseeker’s allowance advice Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for lines was in the latest period for which figures are Work and Pensions if he will publish his Department’s available. [108616] risk register for the decision to roll-out nationwide the incapacity benefits migration programme. [107231] Chris Grayling: I can advise the top 85 percentile is not available. The telephony platform would not capture Chris Grayling: The Department has no plans to wait times by individual in order for us to calculate the publish any risk registers regarding its operations. The wait time for that or indeed any proportion of the total. phased approach to incapacity benefit migration was itself a risk mitigation prior to implementing the change Pension Funds: Overseas Investment nationally. There is no specific risk register now that migration is part of day to day operations. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Jobseeker’s Allowance Work and Pensions what pension fund overseas investment was as (a) equities and (b) debt instruments in each of Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and the last 30 years; how much investment there was in Pensions what the median length of waiting time was each year; and what proportion it was of total UK for callers to the jobseeker’s allowance advice lines in investment in each year. [108309] the latest period for which figures are available. [108615] Steve Webb: Information for the period requested is not available. Information from 2006 onwards is published Chris Grayling: It is not possible to obtain the median by the Office for National Statistics, and is set out in the figure as requested, as this would require a full list of table.

Pension fund investment—assets acquired

£ million

2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Overseas equities 128,744 199,280 141,499 136,756 153,912 155,194

Overseas debt instruments 60,734 112,600 122,138 104,749 86,843 95,009

Total investment by pension funds 499,430 643,982 556,282 555,428 501,298 528,534 731W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 732W

Pension fund investment—assets acquired £ million 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Overseas as a proportion of total 37.9 48.4 47.4 43.5 48.0 47.3 (%) Notes: 1. The table shows the cash value of assets acquired by self-administered pension funds in each year. A self-administered pension scheme is defined as an occupational pension scheme with units invested in one or more managed schemes or unit trusts. The data relate to the self-administered pension and superannuation funds of the private sector and to the funded, self-administered schemes of local authorities and employees previously employed in the nationalised industries. Insurer-provided pensions are excluded from the figures. 2. Overseas equities consist of overseas ordinary and preference shares and overseas mutual fund holdings—although note that mutual fund holdings could also consist of bond holdings. Overseas debt instruments consist of overseas corporate and Government bonds and holdings of overseas loans and mortgages. 3. Total investment figure is for long-term investment by self-administered pension funds only and excludes cash and other short-term holdings such as money market funds, which amount to roughly around £40 to £45 billion a year. Source: Office for National Statistics, Investment by Insurance Companies, Pension Funds and Trusts: 4th Quarter 2011, available to download at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/index.html?nscl=Pension+funding

Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Net median weekly income by gender Work and Pensions what the overseas earnings were of (£ per week, 2009-10 prices) pension funds (a) in dividends, (b) in interest, (c) in total and (d) as a proportion of total UK earnings in Before Housing After Housing Costs each of the last 30 years. [108310] Costs Source Year Male Female Male Female Steve Webb: The data required to answer this question are not available. Information about total investment FES 1979 108 99 83 74 income received by self-administered pension funds from 2006 onwards is published by the Office for National 1981 115 106 87 78 Statistics, and is set out in the table: .1987 129 118 94 85 Pension fund investment income £ million 1988 126 118 90 83 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 1989 124 117 93 82 Rents, 1,913 1,892 1,874 1,764 1,760 1,837 receivable from 1990-91 134 122 107 88 properties Dividends 12,474 11,374 10,810 8,633 7,876 8,727 1992 141 129 106 91 received from investment 1993 150 138 110 94 Interest earned 6,553 7,513 9,697 8,784 9,686 10,614 on investments 1994-95 152 140 113 95 Total 20,940 20,779 22,381 19,181 19,322 21,178 investment 1995-96 153 145 112 97 income Note: 1996-97 161 148 122 101 The table shows the cash value of investment income earned by self- administered pension funds in each year. A self-administered 1997-98 161 150 119 105 pension scheme is defined as an occupational pension scheme with units invested in one or more managed schemes or unit trusts. 1998-99 164 152 124 111 Source: Office for National Statistics, Investment by Insurance Companies, 1999- 171 161 135 121 Pension Funds and Trusts: 4th Quarter 2011, available to download 2000 at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/ 2000-01 176 166 137 129 index.html?nscl=Pension+funding

Pensioners: Income FRS 2001-02 191 175 159 135 2002-03 192 181 156 141 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the average single pensioner 2003-04 203 183 168 142 weekly incomes were of (a) male and (b) female 2004-05 203 192 170 158 pensioners in today’s prices in each of the last 30 years. [108300] 2005-06 205 197 176 164

2006-07 209 193 173 162 Steve Webb: The following table provides the median single pensioner net weekly equivalised incomes, Before 2007-08 213 194 184 163 and After Housing Costs, by gender in 2009-10 prices for all available years. 2008-09 220 204 191 172 733W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 734W

Net median weekly income by gender is likely to come from a range of sources and individuals (£ per week, 2009-10 prices) will be able to provide us with the evidence they consider Before Housing After Housing Costs relevant and to tell us which other professionals may be Costs able to advise us on their circumstances, for example, Source Year Male Female Male Female GP, nurse, hospital consultant or social worker. Reports 2009-10 232 212 197 176 produced as part of assessments for other support may form a useful part of this evidence mix. Notes: 1. These statistics are based on Pensioners’ Income Series (PI) data This suite of information and evidence will allow for sourced from the Family Expenditure Survey (FES) and the Family a far more personalised approach to be undertaken Resources Survey (FRS). both on overall entitlement to the benefit and on whether 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. a face-to-face consultation is needed with the individual This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment as part of the assessment. Such an approach will allow income and other sources. Income tax payments, national insurance for more informed decisions to be made, taking full contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments account of how the health condition or impairment are deducted from incomes. Figures have been presented on a Before impacts upon the individual. Housing Cost and an After Housing Cost basis. For Before Housing Costs, housing costs are not deducted from income, while for After Housing Costs they are. Social Security Benefits: Data Protection 3. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. The reference period for FRS-based PI figures is the financial year. Work and Pensions how many private businesses and FRS-based estimates are not available before 1994-95. FES-based PI public bodies have access to information held by his data are based on calendar years. Data are presented for available Department relating to individuals’ employment history years. The years presented correspond to publications that have and working age benefit claims; and for what reasons correct data and where we have spent the time in ensuring income definitions, etc. are consistent. each body has access in each case. [109030] 5. Weekly incomes have been rounded to the nearest pound. 6. Older data is sourced from the FES. The two surveys have different Chris Grayling: The Department lawfully allows specific response rates and response profiles, and there are some definitional organisations to access personal data for a wide range differences in the data that are collected. Because of these differences, direct comparisons between results from the FES and FRS should of statutory purposes. This access may be required, for not normally be made. example, by the Department’s data processors, organisations 7. FES-sourced figures are for the United Kingdom and FRS-sourced working with individuals to assist them into employment, figures are for Great Britain up to 2001-02 and for the United or other data controllers, such as local authorities to Kingdom from 2002-03. assist with the assessment of housing benefit. 8. It was announced in May that the 2009-10 results will be revised when the 2010-11 results come out. See the DWP PI website for A wide range of private and public organisations are further information. provided with information for such purposes and compiling Source: a single list of the uses made by each of them could be Pensioners’ Incomes Series 2009-10 done only at disproportionate cost. Personal Independence Payment The Department has provided further detail of the ways in which personal information is used, in an explanatory leaflet ‘DWP and your personal information’ Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for in its published Privacy Policy which is available on the Work and Pensions whether an assessment by the Departments internet pages at the following address: social services department of a local authority that a person with a disability requires care and support will http://www.dwp.gov.uk/privacy-policy/#DPA be sufficient evidence of eligibility for the personal independence payment. [108864] Universal Credit

Maria Miller: Within personal independence payment Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for we intend to move away from the blanket exemptions Work and Pensions if he will publish his Department’s and automatic entitlement provisions that exist within risk register on the introduction of universal credit. disability living allowance and treat every claimant [108244] as an individual. As such, entitlement to personal independence payment will not be based upon individuals’ Chris Grayling: There are no plans to publish the specific health conditions or impairments nor on what Department’s risk register on the introduction of universal existing entitlement to other benefits or support they credit. may have, including social care support. The assessment for the new benefit will instead focus on the extent to which claimants’ health condition or impairment affect Working Hours their day to day lives, by assessing ability to carry out key everyday activities. This will ensure that priority in Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and the benefit goes to those people who face the greatest Pensions what average number of hours was worked barriers to living independent lives. per week by people employed in (a) the UK, (b) While the fact that claimants have entitlement to Scotland and (c) each Scottish constituency in May (i) social care or other support will not be a factor in 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012. [109202] whether they are entitled to personal independence payment, we do want to ensure that our assessments are Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the based on the best and most appropriate evidence. Evidence Cabinet Office. 735W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 736W

The information requested falls within the responsibility Mean hours worked per worker per week1 by UK, Scotland and of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Westminster parliamentary constituencies in Scotland to reply. 12 months ending: Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated May 2012: September 2010 September 2011 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Glasgow South 33.2 30.8 have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Glasgow South West 28.4 30.8 what the average number of hours worked per week was of people Glenrothes 31.3 29.9 employed in (a) the UK, (b) Scotland and (c) each Scottish Gordon 32.2 31.5 constituency in May (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012. (109202) Inverclyde 31.1 31.8 The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles statistics on Average Hours Worked, for regions and constituencies from the Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch 31.5 31.6 and Strathspey Annual Population Survey (APS). Estimates for the UK have also been provided from this source for consistency. However, these Kilmarnock and Loudoun 31.1 31.5 UK estimates will therefore differ from those in the National Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. 29.6 30.3 Labour Market Statistics Bulletin which are produced from the Lanark and Hamilton East 32.6 29.2 Labour Force Survey. Linlithgow and East Falkirk 31.5 30.8 Table 1 shows the mean actual number of hours worked per Livingston 32.9 31.6 worker per week for the geographies requested for the 12 month Midlothian 30.3 29.7 APS periods ending September 2010 and September 2011, the Moray 32.9 31.9 latest period for which figures are available. Data for 2012 are currently not available. Motherwell and Wishaw 31.1 32.9 Na h-Eileanan an Iar 29.1 35.0 As with any sample survey, estimates from APS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. North Ayrshire and Arran 30.7 31.4 North East Fife 34.5 32.7 Mean hours worked per worker per week1 by UK, Scotland and Westminster parliamentary constituencies in Scotland Ochil and South Perthshire 33.0 31.8 12 months ending: Orkney and Shetland 31.3 30.1 September 2010 September 2011 Paisley and Renfrewshire 30.8 32.4 North United Kingdom 31.8 31.7 Paisley and Renfrewshire 29 2 30.9 Scotland 31.4 31.3 South Aberdeen North 31.8 30.7 Perth and North Perthshire 32 5 31.5 Aberdeen South 31.2 31.7 Ross, Skye and Lochaber 30.4 30.0 Airdrie and Shotts 33.0 31.7 Rutherglen and Hamilton 29.7 31.6 West Angus 31.7 31.8 Stirling 30.9 31.0 Argyll and Bute 31.7 32.0 West Aberdeenshire and 32.6 30.6 Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock 30.9 31.5 Kincardine Banff and Buchan 31.7 32.7 West Dunbartonshire 30.1 29.1 Berwickshire, Roxburgh and 31.2 31.2 1 Average actual hours worked per week in main and second job Selkirk including paid and unpaid overtime. Caithness, Sutherland and 31.6 29.0 Source: Easter Ross Annual Population Survey Central Ayrshire 31.2 31.2 Coatbridge, Chryston and 30.0 31.7 Bellshill Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and 33.8 32.8 EDUCATION Kirkintilloch Dumfries and Galloway 30.8 33.0 Academies Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale 30.8 32.1 and Tweeddale Dundee East 30.5 29.7 Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Dundee West 30.3 28.8 Education how many schools he expects to convert to Dunfermline and West Fife 31.7 31.1 academy status in 2012. [106884] East Dunbartonshire 30.6 31.1 East Kilbride, Strathaven and 31.2 32.0 Mr Gibb: 2,160 applications to convert to academies Lesmahagow had been received up until 1 May 2012. 1,450 of these East Lothian 31.6 31.0 schools have already converted to academy status. The East Renfrewshire 31.7 32.8 academy conversion programme is a demand-led Edinburgh East 29.8 32.1 programme with conversion numbers dependent on Edinburgh North and Leith 31.1 32.6 schools submitting applications. I cannot therefore advise Edinburgh South 35.6 31.7 how many schools will convert to academies in 2012. Edinburgh South West 29.6 33.6 Edinburgh West 32.5 31.5 Academies: Primary Education Falkirk 32.2 30.0 Glasgow Central 28.5 34.0 Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Glasgow East 30.4 27.6 Education what guidance is given to officials in his Glasgow North 34.8 30.0 Department on the information to be provided in writing Glasgow North East 30.3 28.5 when they are advising primary schools on possible Glasgow North West 29.9 31.2 conversion to academy status. [108804] 737W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 738W

Mr Gibb: No guidance is given to departmental officials Tim Loughton: The information requested for Reading about what information should be provided in writing borough council can be found in the tables. Information to schools that are considering conversion to academy at constituency level is not available. status. Officials communicate with these schools in person, on the phone, and in writing. In addition, primary The decision that a looked after child should be schools can access written information available on the placed for adoption is made by their local authority but Department’s website including details about academy the local authority cannot actually place the child with status and the process for becoming an academy, a prospective adopters without either a placement order description of the role of a sponsor and case studies of or parental consent (depending on the individual open academies. The website is available here circumstances of the case). http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ Information about the decision that a child should be typesofschools/academies/primary placed for adoption has only been collected for all Adoption: Reading (Berkshire) looked after children, for whom a decision was made, since 2009. Previously, this information was collected Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Education only for children who had been adopted. Consequently, how many children were in foster care awaiting adoption the number of children waiting for adoption can only in Reading West constituency in each of the last three be provided for the last three years. years. [106662]

Looked after children for whom the decision was made that they should be placed for adoption while placed In foster care, who were adopted, had the decision that they should be placed for adoption reversed or who were still waiting to be adopted at 31 March1, 2, 3, 4. Years ending 31 March 2009 to 2011. Coverage: Reading Number Year in which the decision was made that the child should be placed for adoption 2009 Year in which the child was adopted, for whom the Number of children in Number awaiting decision was foster care for whom adoption who reversed or was the decision was made Number of children Number for whom were placed for waiting to be that they should be adopted in year ending decision reversed in year Number awaiting adoption at 31 adopted placed for adoption 31 March ending 31 March adoption at 31 March5 March6

2009 15 0 0 15 0 2010 10 n/a n/a n/a n/a 2011 15 n/a n/a n/a n/a

Number Year in which the decision was made that the child should be placed for adoption 2010 Year in which the child was adopted, for whom the Number of children in decision was foster care for whom Number awaiting reversed or was the decision was made Number of children Number for whom Number awaiting adoption who were waiting to be that they should be adopted in year decision reversed in adoption at placed for adoption at adopted placed for adoption ending 31 March year ending 31 March 31 March5 31 March6

2009 15 x 0 10 x 2010 10 0 0 10 x 2011 15 n/a n/a n/a n/a

Number Year in which the decision was made that the child should be placed for adoption 2011 Year in which the child was adopted, for whom the Number of children in decision was foster care for whom Number awaiting reversed or was the decision was made Number of children Number for whom Number awaiting adoption who were waiting to be that they should be adopted in year decision reversed in adoption at placed for adoption at adopted placed for adoption ending 31 March year ending 31 March 31 March5 31 March6

200915x0xx 201010x05x 2011 15 x 0 15 5 739W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 740W n/a = Not applicable x = Figures not shown in order to protect confidentiality 1 Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 5. Consequently, the figures may not add up. For confidentiality purposes, numbers from one to five inclusive have been replaced by a cross (x). Where any number is shown as zero (0), the original figure submitted was zero (0). 2 Only children looked after in a foster care placement when the decision was made that they should be placed tor adoption have been counted. 3 For children living with the family intending to adopt them (ie placed for adoption), it is tor the prospective adopters to apply to court for an adoption order. 4 Children waiting to be placed for adoption may either bewailing for a placement order to be made by the court or be in (he process of being matched with prospective adopters. 5 The number of children at 31 March awaiting adoption is calculated as the total number of children in foster care for whom the decision was made that they should be placed for adoption, minus the total number of children who were adopted or for whom the decision was reversed. The number includes children who have been placed for adoption, but for whom an adaption order has not yet been made, as well as children who have not yet been placed. 6 The number awaiting adoption who were placed for adoption at 31 March is a subset of all children who were awaiting adoption at 31 March, and indicates that the child is living with his/her prospective adopters but an adoption order is not yet in place. Source: SSDA 903

Information on adopted children can be found in the Tim Loughton: The earlier that help is given to vulnerable Statistical First Release “Children Looked After by Local children and families, the more chance there is of turning Authorities in England (including adoption and care lives around and protecting children from harm. The leavers)—year ending 31 March 2011”, which is available Government’s vision is for a child centred system which on the Department’s website via the following link: includes providing effective help when a problem arises http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001026/ at any stage in a child’s life. index.shtml Section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 makes it an offence to assault, ill-treat, neglect, Apprentices: West Midlands abandon or expose a child in a manner that is likely to cause unnecessary suffering to the child or injury to his Karen Lumley: Toask the Secretary of State for Education health. Section 1 specifies that this includes any mental how many apprentice starts there were for 16 to 18 year- derangement. It does not therefore focus solely on a olds in (a) Redditch constituency and (b) the West child’s physical needs. Midlands in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012. [107047] Concerns about a child’s welfare may arise in many different contexts and the nature of these concerns will Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows the number of apprenticeship vary greatly from case to case. What is important is that programme starts aged under 19 in Redditch parliamentary action is taken quickly so that a problem does not constituency, the West Midlands region and England escalate. for academic years 2009/10 to 2010/11, the latest full year for which final data are available. Understanding families and the experiences of children within them can be complex and signs of low level Table 1: Apprenticeship programme starts by learners aged under 19 abuse and neglect may be misleading. Professionals by geography, 2009/10 to 2010/11 working in universal services—health, education, police 2009/10 full year 2010/11 full year and early years—have a responsibility to identify the Redditch 150 200 early signs of abuse and neglect, to share that information constituency and work together to provide children with the help West 13,590 15,690 they need. Midlands region Section 17 of the Children Act 1989 places a duty on local authorities to safeguard and promote the welfare England total 116,800 131,700 of children who are being neglected. Under section 47 Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest hundred except for England local authorities have a duty to make inquiries when total which are rounded to the nearest hundred. there is reasonable cause to suspect that a child in their 2. Age is based on age at the start of the programme. These figure area is suffering or is likely to suffer significant harm. includes a small number of under 16-year-olds. 3. Geography is based upon the home postcode of the learner. The Revisions we are proposing to make to statutory England total includes some postcodes which are not known. Geographic guidance ‘Working Together to Safeguard Children’ information is based on boundaries of regions as of May 2010. (2010) will continue to set out the processes to be Source: followed when there are concerns about a child’s safety Individualised Learner Record and welfare. These concerns may be serious enough to Information on the number of apprenticeship starts justify initiating action in the family court. The threshold by age is published in a quarterly statistical first release criteria set out in section 31 of the Children Act 1989 is (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 29 March 2012: used by judges when deciding whether a child has http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ suffered significant harm and should be the subject of a statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current statutory care or supervision order. However, statutory guidance itself is not sufficient to Children and Young Persons Act 1933 effect the change needed. We are helping children’s services, police and the NHS to work together and focus Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education on early identification before problems escalate. We are if the Government will consider reviewing Section 1 of also working with Ofsted to make sure their inspections the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 and its use look at whether children are getting the help they need. for tackling and preventing child neglect. [109036] We are undertaking a number of reforms to strengthen 741W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 742W social work practice. This includes improving the social income adjusted (or ’equivalised’) for household size work degree and developing further the skills of existing and composition, to provide a proxy for standard of social workers in critical areas such as child protection. living. We have advertised for and intend to appoint a Chief The sample size of this survey is not sufficient to Social Worker, who will work with the new College of provide estimates at local authority level. However, Social Work and the newly designated Principal Child figures at a regional level for England and the north east and Family Social Workers in local authorities to drive are available. Three survey years have been combined improvement and raise standards. The Department has because single year estimates are not considered to be also commissioned Action for Children and the University sufficiently reliable. of Stirling to produce training materials to help equip Statistics covering 2007/08 to 2009/10 are the most the work force to respond effectively to children who recent available. are likely to be, or have been, neglected. These materials will be published soon. The following table shows the proportion and number of children living in relative poverty before housing costs (BHC) for 2007/08 to 2009/10 in England and the Children in Care: Missing Persons north east. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Table 1: Number and proportion of children living in relative poverty (BHC) in England and the north east, 2007/08 to 2009/10 for Education what estimate his Department has made Region Number (million) Proportion (%) of the number of children who went missing from care in the last year for which figures are available. [106451] England 2.3 21 North East 0.1 26 Tim Loughton: The information requested is contained Notes: in the following table. 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS) The Department collects information from local available at authorities on looked after children who are missing for http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai_arc more than 24 hours from their agreed placement and This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified whose whereabouts are either known or unknown to OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as social services. an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. For completeness, the table also contains information This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state on the total number of children looked after at any time support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment during the year ending 31 March 2011. income and other sources. Income tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments Looked after children who went missing from their agreed placement are deducted from incomes. during the year ending 31 March 20111,2. Coverage: England 3. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost rather than Number an after housing cost basis. For before housing costs, housing costs are not deducted from income, while for after housing costs they are. Total number of children looked 90,920 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a after at any time during the year degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution Children looked after who went 930 as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. missing during the year3,4,5 5. The reference period for these HBAI figures is the financial year. 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 6. Numbers of households with children have been rounded to the 2 Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of nearest hundred thousand children. short-term placements. 7. Proportions of households with children have been rounded to the 3 Figures include looked after children who were missing from care for nearest percentage point. a period of more than 24 hours. 8. This measure is defined as: 4 Children who went missing more than once during the year have - Relative poverty: households with children with equivalised incomes been counted once. below 60% of contemporary median household income before housing 5 Figures include children who are absent from their agreed placement costs (BHC). including those cases where (a) the young person is in a refuge for 9. The Child Poverty Act 2010 sets four income-based UK-wide children at risk, or (b) the whereabouts of the young person is known targets to be met by 2020. The targets are based on the proportion of to social services (not in refuge), or (c) the whereabouts of the young children living in households with relative low income, combined low person is unknown. income and material deprivation, absolute low income and persistent Source: poverty. Source: SSDA903 Households Below Average Income 1994/95 to 2009/10, DWP

Children: Poverty Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats

Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for for Education what percentage of children were living Education what (a) grants and (b) contracts his in poverty in (a) Newcastle upon Tyne North Department has awarded to companies or organisations constituency, (b) the North East and (c) England in run by individuals who previously held an elected position the latest period for which figures are available. as a member of the (i) Conservative party and (ii) [106482] Liberal Democrat party since May 2010; what the (A) value and (B) nature was of these contracts; and whether Maria Miller: I have been asked to reply on behalf of they were publicly advertised. [107142] the Department for Work and Pensions. Estimates of the number and proportion of children Tim Loughton: We hold details of organisations that living in poverty are published in the Households Below receive a grant from or were awarded a contract by the Average Income (HBAI) series. HBAI uses household Department, but we do not hold any further detail 743W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 744W about individuals within those organisations to know from the Information Commissioner’s Office on the whether they were employed by or held an elected use of private e-mails and the Freedom of Information position of the Conservative party or the Liberal Democrat Act 2000. [106412] party. To provide this information would incur disproportionate costs to this Department. Tim Loughton: In December 2011 the Department With regard to grants, within the Department we received a report from the Information Commissioner have a stated aim, endorsed by our former permanent on the findings of its good practice visit in October secretary, of competing all grants that the Department 2011, which included consideration of the use of personal gives. Depending on the subject matter of each grant, e-mail and the scope of the Freedom of Information we advertise on Contracts Finder Act 2000. The Information Commissioner published http://www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk those findings on 15 December 2011. relevant trade websites or publications or on the Funding The Information Commissioner and his staff regularly Central website make representations to departmental officials in the http://www.fundingcentral.org.uk/Default.aspx course of relevant Freedom of Information Act and With regard to contracts, it is the Department’s policy Data Protection Act casework. to advertise all suitable contracts in either Contracts Finder (link as above), the Official Journal of the European Free School Meals: Durham Union http://ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Education or other publications relevant to the subject matter of how many children in North West Durham constituency the contract. are registered for free school meals. [108854] A suitable contract is one with a value over £20,000 and where the goods or services are not available via an Mr Gibb: Information on the number and percentage existing framework agreement. Contracts with a value of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free below £20,000 and which are not available from a school meals is shown in the tables. framework agreement are competitively tendered by Information on the number of pupils known to be selecting suitable organisations to bid based on objective eligible for and claiming free school meals as at January criteria. 2011 is published in the Statistical First Release ’Schools, Email Pupils and their Characteristics, January 2011’ available at: Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/ Education what recent representations he has received index.shtml

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary, state-funded secondary and special schools, and pupil referral units1, 2, 3, 4, number and percentage of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals5, 6, 7, January 2011, England Maintained nursery and state-funded primary schools1, 2 State-funded secondary schools1, 3 Number of Number of pupils known to Percentage of pupils known to Percentage of be eligible for pupils known to be eligible for pupils known to and claiming be eligible for and claiming be eligible for Number on free school and claiming free Number on free school and claiming free roll5, 6 meals5, 6 meals roll5, 6 meals5, 6 meals

England 3,873,175 743,255 19.2 2,837,825 450,275 15.9 Durham 35,813 7,945 22.2 26,381 4,999 18.9 North West Durham 6,273 1,223 19.5 3,802 664 17.5 constituency

Special schools4 Pupil referral units Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of pupils known to pupils known to be pupils known to pupils known to be be eligible for eligible for and be eligible for eligible for and Number on and claiming free claiming free Number on and claiming free claiming free roll5, 6 school meals5, 6 meals roll5, 6 school meals5, 6 meals

England 79,030 28,830 36.5 13,725 4,745 34.6 Durham 1,068 564 52.8 79 38 48.1 North West Durham 52 20 38.5 8— 8— 8— constituency

Total7 Number of pupils known to be Percentage of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free eligible for and claiming free Number on roll5, 6 school meals5, 6 meals

England 6,803,755 1,227,110 18.0 Durham 63,341 13,546 21.4 North West Durham constituency 10,127 1,907 18.8 745W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 746W

1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. 4 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 5 Includes pupils who are sole or dual main registrations, includes boarders. In Pupil Referral Units includes pupils registered with other providers and further education colleges. 6 Pupils who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged between 5 and 15. 7 Includes maintained nursery, state-funded primary, state-funded secondary and special schools, and Pupil Referral Units. Excludes pupils in alternative provision as full and part-time status is not collected. 8 Not applicable. No schools of this type. Note: National totals have been rounded to the nearest 5. Source: School Census

Home Education more his Department lost in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108923] Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent assessment his Department has Tim Loughton: There are no recorded losses from the made of the extent to which local authorities are Department for items of equipment valued at £10,000 fulfilling their duty to identify home-schooled children or more in the years 2010-11 and 2011-12. who are not receiving a suitable education. [108258] Manpower Mr Gibb: The Department has not recently undertaken an assessment of how local authorities are fulfilling Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for their statutory duty to identify those children of compulsory Education how many full-time equivalent employees school age who are not receiving a suitable education at his Department employed in May 2010; and how many home. However, the Department plans to review its it employed at the latest period for which figures are statutory guidance on Children Missing Education for available. [108164] local authorities later in the autumn. Tim Loughton: The Department employed 2,622 or Lost Property 2,504.1 full-time equivalent (FTE) on the 31 May 2010. A more detailed breakdown covering how the Department Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and its arms length bodies have changed since March how many items of equipment valued at £10,000 or 2010 is as follows.

March 2010 March 2012 April 2012 Headcount FTE Headcount FTE Headcount FTE

Total group 9,710 9,258 7,860 7,385 7,542 7,073 DFE Total 7,435 7,062 6,244 5,828 5,943 5,535 DFE plus Executive Agencies 2,691 2,571 2,789 2,673 4,024 3,868 DFE Core 2,691 2,571 2,699 2,585 2,818 2,699 Executive Agencies 0 0 90 88 1,206 1,169 NDPBs 4,744 4,492 3,455 3,155 1,919 1,667 Non-Ministerial Departments 2,275 2,196 1,616 1,557 1,599 1,538

Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education an annual survey. The following table shows the number how many full-time equivalent employees have (a) left of unfilled places in maintained primary schools and and (b) been recruited to his Department in the last academies in Birmingham between 2007 and 2011, which two years. [108179] are the most recent data available. The number of unfilled places are reported at local authority level and Tim Loughton: 111 people joined and 750 left the not broken down by constituency. Department between 1 April 2010 and 31 March 2012. Unfilled places in maintained primary schools in Birmingham (including academies) Primary Education: Birmingham Total

Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for 20071 8,649 Education how many vacant primary school places 20081 8,730 there were in (a) Birmingham, Ladywood constituency and (b) Birmingham city council area in each of the 20091 8,414 last five years for which information is available. 20102 7,875 [108731] 20112 7,635 1 Number of places relate to the position as at January Mr Gibb: The Department collects information from 2 Number of places relate to the position as at May each local authority on the number of unfilled places in Source: maintained primary schools (except special schools) via Surplus Places Survey and School Capacity Collection 747W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 748W

Schools: Admissions preferring instead to work with their schools, through the locally agreed Fair Access Protocol. This ensures, in Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the vast majority of cases, that children are placed in (1) on how many occasions a direction to admit was school quickly. All local authorities are required to have sought from the Education Funding Agency for each and operate a Fair Access Protocol, with which all local authority area in the latest period for which figures schools and academies in their area are required to are available; [106506] participate. (2) for how many children a direction to admit was Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State sought from the Education Funding Agency in each for Education if he will take steps to ensure non-maintained local authority area in the latest period for which schools do not disadvantage maintained schools by figures are available; [106507] engaging in unfair admissions practices. [108667] (3) for how many children a direction to admit was granted in each local authority area in the latest period Mr Gibb: The School Admissions Code, which came for which figures are available; [106508] into force on 1 February 2012, sets out a national (4) what the Education Funding Agency’s average framework that ensures that all state-funded school response time was to requests for direction to admit, places, including places in academies and free schools, timed from the moment that local authorities first are awarded in a fair and open way. It is the responsibility made a request for a direction to admit in the latest of every admission authority to ensure that the admission period for which figures are available. [106509] arrangements they determine are compliant with the Code. Other non-maintained schools such as non- Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State has powers to direct maintained special schools and independent schools are admission to an academy if a local authority makes a free to set their own admissions arrangements. complaint and the academy is found to have breached the terms of its Funding Agreement or the Admissions Schools: Shropshire Code. Such requests are considered by the Education Funding Agency (EFA), which took over this responsibility from the Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) on Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 April 2012. Education what assessment he has made of oral and written representations from Shropshire head teachers Since the start of the academic year 2011/12 the highlighting the effects on school infrastructure of YPLA and EFA have received a total of 14 requests Shropshire receiving less than the national average level from local authorities to direct admission to an academy. for school funding. [109085] All have been resolved without the need for the Secretary of State to issue a direction order. Mr Gibb: The Under-Secretary of State for Education, The number of requests to direct admission broken my noble Friend, Lord Hill of Oareford, recently met down by local authority is set out in the following table. my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham Each case is treated on a case by case basis. In all cases, (Daniel Kawczynski) and a headteacher from Shropshire the Department and the EFA will work with the relevant to discuss the future of school funding. local authority and schools to ensure that the child is in school as quickly as possible. As the Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Requests to direct admission to an academy by local authority Gove), set out in his statement to the House on 26 March Number of requests 2012, Official Report, columns 88-89WS, we will introduce Local authority sought Number of children a new national funding formula during the next spending Buckinghamshire 11period. This will ensure that funding is distributed county council across the country fairly and transparently. It is important Doncaster council 1 1 that the components of a new national formula are Hillingdon council 2 10 right and introduce change at a pace which schools can Kent county council 1 1 manage. Newham council 1 1 Norfolk county 22 Trade Unions council Nottinghamshire 11 county council Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Stoke-on-Trent city 22(1) how many trade union representatives in (a) his council Department and (b) each of its non-departmental public Suffolk county 11bodies had (i) part-time; and (ii) full-time paid facility council time arrangements in 2011-12; [107341] Thurrock council 1 1 (2) how many days were utilised for paid facility time Warwickshire 11by each trade union representative in (a) his Department county council and (b) each of its non-departmental public bodies in Total (2011/12 14 22 2011-12; and at what cost to the public purse; [107342] academic year) (3) how many days were utilised for paid facility time The Department does not collect figures on the number by each trade union representative in (a) his Department of children admitted to maintained schools as the result and (b) each of its non-departmental public bodies for of directions issued by local authorities. Local authorities trade union (i) duties and (ii) activities in 2011-12; only direct a school to take a child as a last resort [107343] 749W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 750W

(4) if he will place in the Library copies of the Meetings held between Department for Education and trade unions 2011-12 facility time agreements between trade unions and (a) Date Time Meeting type his Department and (b) each of its non-departmental 11 April 2011 11.00-12.00 Other public bodies; [107344] 14 April 2011 15.00-17.00 Other (5) how many trade union representatives in (a) his 27 April 2011 11.00-13.00 Other Department and (b) each of its non-department public 5 May 2011 14.00-15.00 Other bodies have faced disciplinary action for abusing paid 5 May 2011 11.00-12.00 Other facility time or public resources in each of the last five 24 May 2011 16.00-17.00 Other years; [107345] 6 June 2011 13.00-15.00 Other (6) how many meetings have taken place between (a) 13 June 2011 15.00-16.00 Other his Department and (b) each of its non-departmental 13 June 2011 14.00-15.00 Other public bodies and trade union representatives utilising 15 June 2011 10.00-11.00 Other paid facility time in each of the last five years to discuss 5 July 2011 16.00-17.00 Other (i) collective bargaining, (ii) redundancies, (iii) 14 July 2011 15.00-17.00 Other negotiations relating to employment, pay and 26 July 2011 13.00-14.00 Other conditions and (iv) other trade union and industrial 4 August 2011 13.00-15.00 Other relations duties; and what the dates and times were of 20 September 2011 13.00-14.00 Other each meeting; [107346] 20 September 2011 15.00-16.00 Other 21 September 2011 14.00-15.00 Other (7) on how many occasions trade union representatives 4 October 2011 15.15-16.15 Other from (a) his Department and (b) each of its non- 6 October 2011 10.00-10.30 Other departmental public bodies have utilised paid facility 11 October 2011 14.00-15.00 Other time to represent an employee at a meeting or other 17 October 2011 14.00-15.00 Other industrial relations matter in each of the last five years. 18 October 2011 14.00-15.00 Other [107347] 6 December 2011 17.15-18.00 Other 8 December 2011 11.15-12.00 Other Tim Loughton: In 2011-2012 the Department had 16 January 2012 13.00-14.00 Other three full-time and 30 part-time trade union representatives. 18 January 2012 14.00-15.00 Other A minimum of 396 days were used as paid facility time, 1 February 2012 14.00-15.00 Other 293 for duties and 103 for activities at a total cost of 4 May 2011 12.30-13.30 Pay and Conditions £220,000. 25 May 2011 15.30-16.30 Pay and Conditions In CAFCASS there were the equivalent of 5.5 full-time 15 July 2011 10.00-11.00 Pay and Conditions officials with a total of 1,270 days facility time used at a 9 August 2011 10.00-12.00 Pay and Conditions cost of £500,000. 7 September 2011 12.00-13.00 Pay and Conditions The Office of the Children’s Commissioner (OCC) 19 September 2011 13.00-15.00 Pay and Conditions have two-part time officials. Additional information in 27 October 2011 14.00-15.00 Pay and Conditions relation to the cost and number of days spent on 16 November 2011 10.00-12.00 Pay and Conditions facilities time is not held centrally. 28 November 2011 15.00-16.00 Pay and Conditions 1 December 2011 13.00-14.00 Pay and Conditions A copy of the facilities agreements for the Department 7 December 2011 10.00-12.00 Pay and Conditions for Education, CAFCASS and the OCC have been 10 January 2011 10.00-11.00 Pay and Conditions placed in the House Libraries. 11 January 2012 10.00-12.00 Pay and Conditions Fewer than five trade union representatives in the 25 January 2012 10.00-11.00 Pay and Conditions Department and its non-departmental public bodies 9 February 2012 10.00-11.00 Pay and Conditions have faced disciplinary action for the misuse of facility 14 February 2012 13.00-14.00 Pay and Conditions time in the last five years. 21 February 2012 13.00-14.00 Pay and Conditions Included in the following table are the details of 7 March 2012 10.00-12.00 Pay and Conditions formal meetings between the Department and the trade unions. The table documents the minimum number of meetings held; additional meetings have taken place on Meetings held between CAFCASS and trade union 2011-12 a formal and informal basis but this information is not 12 operational meetings and 10 national meetings. held centrally. This information covers the period 2011-12. Further details are not available. Information for earlier years is not available. Information as supplied by CAFCASS and OCC is also included. Meetings held between Office for the Children’s Commissioner and trade unions The Department and its NDPBs do not collect Approximately six meetings were held. Further details information detailing the amount of facility time used are not available. to represent an employee at a meeting. All information contained here is in relation to the Department for Education, CAFCASS and the Office of the Children’s Commissioner (OCC) only.Information relating to NDPBs JUSTICE that were abolished with effect from 31 March 2012 is not available. Courts: Enforcement Meetings held between Department for Education and trade unions 2011-12 Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Date Time Meeting type Justice what estimate he has made of the potential saving to the Exchequer of privatising the Court 8 April 2011 11.00-13.00 Other Enforcement Service. [109031] 751W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 752W

Mr Djanogly: The policy and commercial strategy, in within 45 days from issue. There are no targets for when relation to possible future plans to work with a commercial issue resolution and final hearings should take place, partner to deliver criminal compliance and enforcement but the PLO is clear that these should be at a pace that functions within HM Courts and Tribunals Service, are is consistent with the child’s individual needs and still currently under development. Any associated benefits circumstances. It must be noted however that all parties— and savings resulting from the implementation of such legal representatives, local authority representatives, a policy are still subject to review and approval and CAFCASS guardians, parents—must be available to would not be fully determined and validated until the attend that hearing in order for it to be effective. Waiting commercial process has concluded. times for court hearings are therefore not only dependent on court capacity, but also on the availability of the Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for parties and other agencies to attend the dates offered. Justice how many people are employed by HM Courts Public law hearings can often be up to five days, which Service on court enforcement in each region. [109032] will obviously affect the parties’ ability to attend at short notice. In some cases the court will need to Mr Djanogly: The number of enforcement staff in arrange an urgent hearing, eg to consider and application each of the HM Court Service regions are as set out in for an emergency protection order. In such cases the the following table: court will make all efforts to ensure that an emergency hearing takes place immediately. The HMCTS action Region Number of enforcement staff plans outlined above also include a range of activities to improve adherence to the PLO, and to liaise with London 231 CAFCASS or local authorities on how attendance for Midlands 367 hearings can be improved. North East 366 North West 272 The independent Family Justice Review, chaired by David Norgrove, put forward recommendations to improve South East 248 the progression and timeliness of public law cases. The South West 206 Government response, published in February this year, Wales 157 set out the range of actions that the Government would Total 1,847 take to address the shortcomings identified by the review, Family Courts: Worcestershire and take its recommendations forward. One such recommendation is the establishment of a dedicated Family Justice Board, which will have the key responsibility Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for for improving performance nationally. This national Justice what recent assessment he has made of the board will be supported by a network of local Family waiting times for Family Court hearings in child protection Justice Boards based around local courts and local cases in Worcestershire. [109022] authorities. These local boards are currently being established and will tackle local performance issues, Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty’s and ensure open communication lines between courts Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) are working and local child protection agencies. with system partners (Department for Education, CAFCASS, local authorities) to improve family While the Government do not collect statistics on performance across the board, particularly in relation how long parties wait for hearings at particular courts, to the ’public law’ cases that deal with child protection we do measure how long it takes for child protection issues. This work includes assessing waiting times at cases to be completed. In Worcestershire, overall average courts, and working to ensure that all courts have case duration for care and supervision applications for sufficient capacity to ensure that public law cases can October to December 2011, the latest period available, progress in a timely manner. is as follows: To improve court capacity, HMCTS has allocated an Worcester county court: 70 weeks (revised since the provisional figure of 68 was published on 29 March 2012). extra 4,000 county court sitting days across England and Wales in this financial year, which represents an Worcestershire Family Proceedings Courts: 44 weeks overall increase of 8,000 days compared to 2009-10. Of The national average for care and supervision case the 4,000 extra days released, 680 have been allocated to duration currently stands at 55 weeks, and all local case the Midlands region, and 31 of these have been allocated durations can be found on the Open Justice website: for use at Worcester county court. This represents an http://open.justice.gov.uk/courts/care-proceedings/ increase to Worcester’s dedicated family sitting day The Government is committed to reducing this average allocation of just over 20%. HMCTS has also ring-fenced both nationally and at all local courts, and intends to the sitting days allocated for family cases in the magistrates legislate for a six month time limit in child protection courts to ensure that they are used as intended. HMCTS cases. In the meantime all agencies have been tasked, are monitoring the effect that these extra days are under the stewardship of the Family Justice Board, with having on the timely progression of cases, and have improving their performance and reducing case duration developed regional action plans to ensure that local significantly in advance of the time limit being implemented. performance is improved, and that any local barriers to performance improvement are tackled. Fraud: Direct Mail The progression of child protection cases is managed within a judicially led framework known as the Public Law Outline (PLO). The PLO specifies that the first John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if hearing should take place within six days from issue, he will take steps to make redress more readily and then a case management conference should be held accessible for victims of mail scams. [106810] 753W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 754W

Norman Lamb: I have been asked to reply on behalf Proportion represented as a of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Quarter percentage (%) I am of course aware of the damage and harm that July to September 11 (second 42 mail scams can have on victims and their families, and quarter of 2011-12) Government recognises the need for a concerted effort to stop them. That is why the National Fraud Authority (NFA), the Metropolitan Police Service and other agencies Lost Property have worked together to target this matter. They have engaged with partners, involving officials in my Department Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and with Royal Mail, to tackle scams and stop scam how many items of equipment valued at £10,000 or mail from getting into the postal system in the first more his Department lost in (a) 2010-11 and (b) place and sever the link between the fraudster and 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108932] possible victims. A direct result of this was the recent seizure by the Metropolitan Police Service of a large Mr Djanogly: In 2010-11, the Department lost four consignment of scam mail. items of equipment worth more than £10,000. No items I believe it is important that the greatest effort is of equipment of this value were lost in 2011-12. applied where it will have the greatest impact. This is by confronting and preventing the mail from getting into Members: Correspondence the postal system in the first place, and by doing so stopping this type of mail from getting anywhere near Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for its intended victims. This needs to be intelligence-led Justice when he plans to reply to the letter from the and based on effective evidence. Where mass marketed right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton of 2 April scams originate from overseas, the Serious Organised 2012 with regard to Mr M Lawless. [109013] Crime Agency and the Office of Fair Trading work closely with overseas counterparts to tackle the worst Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have written to the right hon. perpetrators. Member today. I am therefore confident that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, working with appropriate Parc Prison bodies and the industry, is doing all it can to stop scams getting into the postal system, to ensure that consumers Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice have access to effective advice and victims have access what steps he is taking to improve pastoral support for to support. prisoners at Parc Prison, Bridgend; and if he will make In addition Action Fraud, the UK’s fraud reporting a statement. [109028] centre, offers a service to all victims and potential victims of mail scams to report instances of fraud. The Mr Blunt: We wish to ensure that prisoners from all crime and information reports collected are sent directly religious faiths are given the opportunity and facilities to the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau based at the to practice their religion. All prisons have multi-faith City of London police. The data is used to inform our chaplaincy teams to facilitate this and to provide pastoral picture of fraud and better target resources for preventative support to prisoners and staff. and investigative purposes. At HMP and YOI Parc, the chaplaincy provides www.actionfraud.police.uk pastoral support to anyone who needs it, regardless of 0300 123 2040 faith background. The support available meets the needs of the prison population and there are no immediate Legal Aid Scheme plans to change the existing arrangements. Prisons: Video Recordings Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of his Department’s total John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice procurement expenditure was spent on legal aid if he will make an assessment of the powers used by providers in (a) the fourth quarter of 2010-11, (b) the HM Prison Ranby to request video footage from the first quarter of 2011-12 and (c) the second quarter of West Retford Hotel in 2011 and 2012. [106534] 2011-12. [107821] Mr Blunt: The use of third-party overt CCTV in the Mr Kenneth Clarke: The proportion of Ministry of course of administering disciplinary proceedings is not Justice (MOJ) spent on legal aid providers in (a) the in breach of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act fourth quarter of 2010-11 (b) the first quarter of 2011-12 2000 and no further action is necessary. and (c) the second quarter of 2011-12 is as shown in the following table: Private Prosecutions

Proportion represented as a Quarter percentage (%) Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of 16 May 2012, Official Report, January to March 11 (fourth 40 column 180W, on alternatives to prison: Greater quarter of 2010-11) Manchester, (1) whether his Department keeps records April to June 13 (first quarter of 37 2011-12) of payments made to meet defendants’ costs from central funds in private prosecutions; [108845] 755W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 756W

(2) how much has been paid from central funds to Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Cabinet Office is in the meet defendants’ costs in private prosecutions in (a) process of developing a starter information pack for total and (b) cases brought by the Royal Society for every Department and arm’s length body on how to the Protection of Animals in each of the last five implement a spend-recovery audit. The information financial years. [108846] pack will be available from the Cabinet Office in May 2012. Mr Djanogly: The Department keeps records of Once the information pack has been received, Ministry payments made to meet defendant’s costs from central of Justice Internal Audit and Assurance will plan a funds, but departmental accounting systems do not spend-recovery audit into their annual audit programme. identify centrally payments where the prosecution had been brought (a) privately or (b) by the Royal Society Public Sector for the Protection of Animals. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Procurement how many new public sector mutuals were created or spun-off by his Department in (a) 2010-11 and (b) Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108916] Justice what proportion of payments made by his Department to small and medium-sized enterprises have Mr Kenneth Clarke: No new public sector mutuals been paid late since May 2010. [107779] were created or spun-off by the Ministry of Justice in either 2010-11 or 2011-12. Mr Kenneth Clarke: In line with the Prompt Payment However, the Ministry of Justice is actively exploring Code the Ministry of Justice aims to pay all valid and opportunities to encourage public service mutuals across authorised invoices within five working days. Details of its services. In our recent consultation, “Punishment overall payment performance are published monthly on and reform: effective probation services”, we set out our the Ministry of Justice website that shows yearly average intention to support new models for delivering probation performance of 86.3% for 2011-12. services, such as joint ventures, social enterprises and public service mutuals, and are consulting on how we The details are not broken down by supplier type can best support staff in this process. therefore we are unable to separate small medium-sized enterprises from the overall figures. The link to our payment performance is as follows: Restraint Techniques: Safety http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/procurement-and- commercial/payment-performance Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment he has made of the safety of prison Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for officers over the age of 60 whose duties include the Justice what proportion of his Department’s expenditure restraint of prisoners. [109018] on procurement has gone to small and medium-sized Mr Blunt: NOMS has a wide range of measure in enterprises since May 2010. [107804] place to assess the safety of all prison officers, all of whose duties will include the restraint of prisoners. Mr Kenneth Clarke: The proportion of Ministry of Justice (MOJ) spend with small and medium enterprises The measures include violence reduction strategies since May 2010 is as shown in the following table: designed to reduce the likelihood of restraint being necessary. These include: Proportion represented as a Reception assessment and ongoing information sharing re As at April to March each year percentage (%) prisoners history and behaviour National and local security strategies 2010-11 16 2011-12 34 Security reporting and intelligence analysis Individual and cell searching procedures Serious incident reporting and analysis Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Predictive risk assessment tools for offending behaviour Justice when his Department began including contracts to legal aid providers in its figures for procurement Violence reduction strategies and groups expenditure with small and medium-sized enterprises. Zero Tolerance anti-violence campaign [107822] Locking procedures Cell and prison building and fabric layout and design Mr Kenneth Clarke: Legal aid providers have been Promotion of de-escalation and talk-down strategies included in the Ministry of Justice figures for procurement Training and guidance on communication with prisoners expenditure with small and medium-sized enterprises To manage the residual risk, alt Prison Officers receive since April 2011. extensive training in the use of Control and Restraint The Ministry of Justice is still in the process of techniques both in their initial training (32 hours with a reviewing and classifying legal aid providers. four hour assessment) and then in an annual ″refresher″ training session lasting one day. Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for A fitness testing program for officers is also in place Justice when his Department next expects to undertake and has been a contractual requirement for all staff a spend recovery audit to identify overpayments to who have been appointed as prison officers since April suppliers caused by fraud or error. [107922] 2001. 757W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 758W

Occupational health advice on individual cases can Mr Kenneth Clarke: I met a number of Russian legal also be sought where necessary. experts to discuss human rights and the rule of law. These included the Vice Rector of Faculty of Law of St Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Petersburg State University; the Chair of the Freedom what steps his Department has taken to ensure that of Information Foundation; the Vice Rector and Director prison officers over the age of 60 will not be involved in of the Rule of Law Institute at the European University (a) the physical restraint of prisoners and (b) other of St Petersburg; a Managing Partner at Baker and activities which may cause them injury. [109019] Mackenzie St Petersburg; and the Senior Legal Monitor for Russia at the Mental Disability Advocacy Centre. Mr Blunt: NOMS does not differentiate between I also met human rights experts and John Smith Prison Officers based on their age. It has a wide range Fellows to discuss a range of human rights issues. of measures in place to reduce the likelihood of all Organisations included Citizens Watch; ’Memorial’ (anti- prison officers being involved in (a) the physical restraint discrimination organisation);, ’Coming Out’ (LGBT of prisoners and (b) other activities that may cause rights organisation); ’Side by Side’ (the St Petersburg them harm. These measures are in place to protect all International LGBT Film Festival); St Petersburg’s Human prison officers and are not related to the age of the Rights Ombudsman; Human Rights Watch’s Russia prison officer. office; the Centre for Development of Democracy and The measures to reduce the likelihood of prison Human Rights; and the John Smith Trust Representative officers being involved in the physical restraint of prisoners in Russia. include a number of violence reduction strategies. These I met a number of Justice Ministers, including the include: Russian Justice Minister, Alexander Konovalov to discuss Reception assessment and ongoing information sharing re justice co-operation, rule of law, the protection of human prisoners history and behaviour rights (including the cases of Sergei Magnilsky and National and local security strategies Mikhail Khodorkovsky) and legal sector reform. I also Security reporting and intelligence analysis met Eric Holder, the US Attorney-General, to discuss Individual and cell searching procedures justice and security issues. Serious incident reporting and analysis I took part in a roundtable with a mixed audience of Predictive risk assessment tools for offending behaviour researchers, business people, judiciary and local government officials where I spoke about the Bribery Act 2010 and Violence reduction strategies and groups anti-corruption measures. Other participants included Zero Tolerance anti-violence campaign Professor Vadim Volkov, Director of the Institute for Locking procedures Rule of Law, St Petersburg European University; Igor Cell and prison building and fabric layout and design Strelov. Chair of the North West Russia Commercial Promotion of de-escalation and talk-down strategies Court; and the hon. Mr Justice David Steel. Training and guidance on communication with prisoners I met Anton Ivanov, President of the Russian Supreme Commercial Court, to discuss legal sector regulation NOMS has an Occupational Health and Safety Policy and its impact on attracting foreign business and the which requires managers to undertake assessments of benefits of continuing judicial exchanges through the all the risks in their establishments. These risk assessments Slynn Foundation. I also met Valery Zorkin, Chairman will identify any other activities in the work place that of the Russian Constitutional Court to discuss the may cause harm. They will assess the risks of these judicial reform agenda in Russia; Russia’s relationship activities, identify the staff affected, and the appropriate with the European Court of Human Rights; and human control measures required to reduce the risks. This does rights more generally. include those staff who are judged to be no longer physically capable of carrying out their duties. I was accompanied on this visit by my Parliamentary Private Secretary the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston These risks and the effectiveness of the control measures North (Mr Wallace). will be monitored by managers and the risk assessment and control measures revised as necessary. Unpaid Fines

Russia Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the rate was of non-payment of criminal Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for fines in each region in each of the last three years. Justice (1) who he met on his visit to Russia in May [109033] 2012; [109091] (2) whether he discussed (a) the rule of law, (b) Mr Djanogly: Over the last few years there as been an human rights, (c) legal nihilism and (d) corruption in increase in fine collections. Last year (2011) we collected Russia in May 2012; with whom each such discussion £277 million in fines compared to £251 million in 2009—a 10% increase. Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service took place; and if he will make a statement; [109092] (HMCTS) performance indicators include the payment (3) whether he discussed the cases of (a) Sergei rate for financial penalties, which is calculated as the Magnitsky, (b) Vasily Alexanyan and (c) Mikhail value of financial penalties collected in year as a percentage Khodorkovsky on his visit to Russia in May 2012; with of the value of financial impositions made in the same whom each such discussion took place; and if he will year less the value of any judicial or administrative make a statement; [109093] cancellations. The monies collected may relate to financial (4) whether he was accompanied by any other hon. penalties imposed in that or earlier years. As a result it Member on his visit to Russia in May 2012. [109094] is not possible to show a non-payment rate. 759W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 760W

Table 1, as follows, shows the payment rate for each disorder that are registered as fines for enforcement. HMCTS region in the 2011, 2010 and 2009 calendar Accounts still open include fines that are being collected years. by instalments, those with deductions from benefit and Table 1: HMCTS payment rate for financial penalties by region in the those which have been given time to pay. calendar years 2011, 2010 and 2009 Percentage Victim Support Schemes Region 2011 2010 2009 Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for England and 102 93 83 Justice (1) what steps he has taken to ensure that the Wales arrangements for commissioning victims’ services by London 80 69 74 police and crime commissioners (a) costs no more than Midlands 125 109 86 the current system and (b) does not result in a lower North East 105 107 83 quality of service’ [109278] North West 101 84 89 (2) if he will consider ring-fencing the funding available South East 109 99 84 for victims’ services following the transfer of commissioning South West 101 89 81 arrangements to police and crime commissioners; Wales 105 106 80 [109279] Each year a number of fines are administratively (3) what arrangements he plans to put in place to cancelled in accordance with strict cancellation criteria inspect victims’ services following the transfer of including reasons such as the offender having died or commissioning arrangements to police and crime permanently emigrated, the amount outstanding being commissioners; [109280] less than £10, the offender was a limited company that (4) what minimum standards he proposes will apply has been wound up or the offender cannot be traced to services for victims of crime following the transfer of and the fine is over 12 months old. commissioning arrangements to police and crime Table 2, as follows, shows the payment rate when commissioners; and what steps he plans to take where excluding fines which have been administratively cancelled such minimum standards are not met. [109282] from the calculation. Mr Blunt: Our consultation, ‘Getting it Right for Table 2: HMCTS payment rate for financial penalties by region in the calendar years 2011, 2010 and 2009 excluding administrative Victims and Witnesses’ closed on 22 April. We are cancellations considering the responses to the consultation, which in Percentage relation to our commissioning proposals included views Region 2011 2010 2009 on quality, ring-fencing, minimum standards and administrative costs. We will publish the Government England and 84 80 71 response soon. Wales London 60 53 54 Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for Midlands 94 92 75 Justice if he will bring forward proposals to place the North East 94 95 75 Victims’ Code on a statutory footing. [109281] North West 90 78 80 South East 85 89 72 Mr Blunt: A key proposal in our consultation document South West 94 82 74 ’Getting it Right for Victims and Witnesses’, published Wales 95 91 74 on 30 January, is that there should be a new, clearer, Victims’ Code and we sought views on a set of principles HMCTS has achieved this improved payment rate by on which we think a new code should be based. The focusing on early compliance with financial impositions consultation closed on 22 April and we plan to publish by using a number of methods such as the use of the Government’s response to the consultation in the telephone and text message reminders to defaulters, summer. intelligence tracing tools, increased use of enforcement There is already a statutory basis for the Victims’ sanctions like deduction from benefit orders and attachment Code. It is made under the Domestic Violence, Crime of earnings and targeted payment blitzes on specific and Victims Act 2004. groups of defaulters. There are a number of other initiatives being developed to further improve the collection of financial penalties. The Ministry of Justice now publishes in Court Statistics INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Quarterly, an experimental statistic which shows the time taken to collect financial penalties through accounting Rio+20 Conference centres in the magistrates courts. This new information has been collected since April 2011 sourced from accounting 9. Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State information held on the Libra Management Information for International Development what assessment he has System (MIS). It includes the total amount imposed in made of the draft outcomes document for the Rio+20 each quarter and the amount and percentage of that conference in June 2012. [108780] which is paid within one, three and six months of imposition. Mr Andrew Mitchell: The draft outcomes document Financial penalties include amounts for fines, costs, includes positive statements on green growth and sustainable prosecution costs, legal aid, victim surcharge, compensation development, but is unwieldy. The Department for and unpaid fixed penalties and penalty notices for International Development will continue to work hard 761W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 762W alongside the Department for Environment, Food and Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Rural Affairs in negotiations on the outcome document Development does not maintain a central record of all to be agreed at Rio+20. complaints made about its work or that of its non- departmental public bodies. Providing the full information Jordan Valley: Water Supplies requested would incur disproportionate cost. Figures on formal complaints are available for certain 10. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for functions as follows: International Development what representations he has made to the Israeli Government on water supply Function 2010-11 2011-12 policies in the Jordan valley. [108782] Public Enquiries 0 0 Mr Andrew Mitchell: The fair and effective distribution Overseas Pensions 4 1 of shared water resources across the middle east is of Recruitment 0 0 great concern to the UK and our embassy regularly raises these issues with the Israeli authorities. We continue Complaints on handling of requests under the Freedom to call on Israel to fulfil its obligations under international of Information Act 2000 are published by the Ministry humanitarian law, including ensuring Palestinian access of Justice: to water. http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/foi/implementation Small and Medium-sized Enterprises Meetings 11. Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department is taking to support small and medium-sized Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for enterprises in developing countries. [108783] International Development on what dates (a) he, (b) Ministers and (c) senior officials in his Department Mr O’Brien: DFID is actively helping to increase have met representatives of (i) the Institute for Public employment and investment opportunities for small Policy Research, (ii) the Taxpayers’ Alliance, (iii) the and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). Over the next Institute of Economic Affairs, (iv) ResPublica, (v) the seven years DFID’s support will help create more than Centre for Social Justice and (vi) Policy Exchange; and one million jobs and mobilise loans to over 200,000 if he will publish the minutes and agendas of these SMEs, at least a quarter of which will be headed by meetings. [108967] women. Mr Andrew Mitchell: Details of ministerial meetings Arab Partnership Fund are available on the website of the Department for International Development (DFID) 12. Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-us/Our-organisation/Ministers/ International Development what recent progress has #travel been made by the Arab partnership fund. [108784] and are published every quarter in the normal way. Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Arab Partnership Fund, Providing the full information requested regarding under Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department officials would incur disproportionate cost. for International Development control, continues to make significant progress. Sahel Procurement Policy Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for 13. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State International Development whether his Department for International Development what his Department’s plans to send ministerial level representation to the policy is on the procurement of goods and services African Union Conference on the food shortage in the from the UK for the purposes of foreign aid. [108785] Sahel. [108834] Mr O’Brien: The International Development Act 2002 requires aid to be untied, and EU Public Procurement Mr Andrew Mitchell: We understand from sources directives mandate EU-wide competition. However, I’m within the United Nations that the planned African happy to confirm that in 2010-11, 92% of centrally let Union Conference has been put on hold. Once a revised DFID contracts were let to UK registered companies date has been scheduled and a draft agenda issued, we after open competition. will be in a more appropriate position to consider whether the UK is represented by a Minister or by a Complaints suitably qualified official.

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many complaints about International Development if his Department will take the work of his Department and each of its non- steps during the African Union Conference on the food departmental public bodies were received in (a) 2010-11 shortage in the Sahel to agree measures to (a) mitigate and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. fluctuating food prices in the region and (b) support [108954] the ECOWAS PREPARE project. [108835] 763W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 764W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: We understand from sources Letter from Stephen Penneck dated May 2012: within the United Nations that the planned African As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, Union Conference has been put on hold. Once a revised I have been asked to reply to your recent question date has been scheduled and a draft agenda issued, we asking how many people in each strategic health authority will be in a more appropriate position to consider the were diagnosed with bowel cancer in England in each extent of UK participation. quarter of the last 12 months. [109297] We are engaging and monitoring progress on the The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases ECOWAS PREPARE proposal. Food price volatility of bowel cancer (incidence) are for the year 2010. Please poses a very significant risk to food security in the note that these numbers may not be the same as the Sahel. We welcome the proposal’s regional focus, but number of people diagnosed with cancer, because one have some concerns about certain aspects of the design, person may be diagnosed with more than one cancer. for example why food transfer is the only option considered and the level of participation by the 11 target countries The table below provides the number of diagnoses in the design process. More work is needed on the (incidence) of bowel cancer for strategic health authorities project before we can consider UK support. in England, for each quarter of 2010. The latest published figures on incidence of cancer in Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for England are available on the National Statistics website: International Development if he will make it his policy http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- to support social protection as part of his Department’s releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-27451 new resilience strategy for the Sahel region. [108836] Table 1: Number of newly diagnosed cases of malignant neoplasm of the bowel by strategic health authority and by quarter, England, Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK has been a major 1, 2, 3 supporter of social protection programmes in Africa 2010 and recognises that providing poor people with social Persons safety nets helps reduce their vulnerability to food crises. SHA Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Total In drought-prone countries where the Department for England 8,117 8,584 8,433 8,084 33,218 International Development (DFID) has bilateral development programmes, we have made major investments North East 428 440 521 451 1,840 in social protection programmes such as the Productive North West 1,063 1,177 1,167 1,133 4,540 Safety Net Programme in Ethiopia and the Hunger Yorkshire and the 839 858 828 794 3,319 Safety Net Programme in Kenya. Humber In the Sahel we recognise that it is vital to expand East Midlands 759 843 691 736 3,029 social protection programmes to protect people from West Midlands 906 949 914 879 3,648 future food crises. Without bilateral programmes in the East of England 992 1,015 969 1,005 3,981 region, DFID cannot provide direct support to national London 794 797 855 746 3,192 social protection programmes; however our multilateral South East Coast 711 781 822 752 3,066 partners—notably the World Bank and the United South Central 597 659 621 649 2,526 Nations—do support social safety net programmes in South West 1,028 1,065 1,045 939 4,077 the Sahel. 1 Figures are for cases diagnosed in 2010 and exclude non-residents. 2 Cancer of the bowel was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) codes C18 to 20. 3 Figures are based on boundaries as of February 2012. CABINET OFFICE Source: Office for National Statistics Big Lottery Fund

Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Business Office on what dates he has met the Chair of the Big Lottery Fund since May 2010; what issues were discussed at each meeting; if he will publish the minutes and Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Minister for the agenda of the meetings; and if he will make a statement. Cabinet Office what proportion of government contracts [108815] were awarded to (a) micro, (b) small and (c) medium-sized businesses in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [106814] Mr Hurd: I met with Peter Ainsworth on 13 June 2011, 13 October 2011 and 16 January 2012 to discuss a Mr Maude: This Government has an aspiration that range of issues relating to the Big Lottery Fund. 25% of its buying should go to SMEs by 2015. Bowel Cancer A Progress Report on central Government business with SMEs was published on 9 March 2012 and is available on the Cabinet Office website at: Mark Menzies: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many people in each strategic health www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/making- authority area were diagnosed with bowel cancer in government-business-more-accessible-smes-one-year England in each quarter of the last 12 months. [109297] While data are not held on the exact proportion of contracts awarded to micro, small and medium-sized Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the businesses. The proportion of direct Government spend responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have with SMEs was 6.5% in 2009-10 and reached 13.7% by asked the authority to reply. the end of the 2011-12 financial year. 765W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 766W

Carbon Emissions Fuel Oil: Coventry

Luciana Berger: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the Office (1) what measures his Department introduced to Cabinet Office what has been the estimated average reduce the carbon emissions of 10 Downing street in household expenditure on heating fuel bills in Coventry (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; [108547] in each of the last 10 years. [108703] (2) what the total level of carbon emissions was of 10 Downing street between (a) 1 April 2010 and Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 1 April 2011 and (b) 2 April 2011 and 1 April 2012. responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. [108546] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated May 2012: Mr Maude: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I part of the Cabinet Office. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what has been the estimated average household expenditure on The Government is fully committed to the Greening heating fuel bills in Coventry in each of the last 10 years. (108703) Government Commitment (GCC). The Cabinet Office The Living Costs and Food Survey (LCF), which is a sample has already reduced carbon emissions by 25.7% as at survey covering approximately 5,000 households in the UK, the third quarter of 2011-12 when compared with the collects data on expenditure on gas, electricity and other fuels. 2009-10 baseline. A number of measures have been Unfortunately, estimates of household expenditure at local authority taken to achieve this, including increased thermal insulation level are not available due to small sample sizes. and the introduction of intelligent lighting systems. Israel As part of the GGC, the Cabinet Office publishes its performance on a quarterly basis. The performance for Q4 in 2011-12 will be published shortly at: Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what steps he has taken to ensure that the http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cabinet- office-greening-government-performance Government does not procure goods, produce or services from illegal Israeli settlements. [108728]

Charities Mr Maude: The UK opposes boycotts which we think are counter-productive. The Public Contracts Regulations 2006 sets out the Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet procedures to be followed by public authorities when Office how many charities deregistered in (a) 2010 and they wish to procure goods, works and services. These (b) 2011; and if he will make a statement. [109001] include mechanisms by which a company may be excluded from a tender exercise, for example where a company Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the has been convicted of a criminal offence in connection responsibility of the Charity Commission, have asked with their business or profession, or has committed an the Commission’s chief executive to reply. act of grave professional misconduct in the course of Letter from Sam Younger, dated 18 May 2012: their business or profession. I have been asked to reply to your Written Parliamentary Question on how many charities deregistered in (a) 2010 and (b) Major Projects Authority 2011; and if he will make a statement [109001]. The Charity Commission removes charities from the Register Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet for a variety of reasons. It may be that a charity has ceased to Office how many times the Major Projects Authority exist or operate, or may have merged, incorporated or transferred has met since May 2010; on what dates; if he will its funds to another charity. publish the minutes of each meeting; and if he will make a statement. [108821] Number of charities removed

2010 6,398 Mr Maude: The Major Projects Authority board has 2011 7,394 met seven times since May 2010. The dates were: 28 June 2011 This information is publicly available on our website: 28 July 2011 http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/ShowCharity/ 26 September 2011 RegisterOfCharities/AdvancedSearch.aspx 1 November 2011 29 November 2011 27 March 2012 Complaints 23 April 2012 We do not publish the note of the meetings. Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many complaints about the work of his Population Department and each of its agencies and non-departmental public bodies were received in (a) 2010-11 and (b) Mr Frank Field: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [108941] Office if he can give a percentage breakdown of the total population by economic status of family for each Mr Maude: This information is not held centrally. of the last 30 years. [108102] 767W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 768W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Not seasonally adjusted responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Workless households asked the authority to reply. April to Unemployed All Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated May 2012: June each All and All workless All year unemployed inactive inactive households households As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Percentage us to make an estimate of the percentage breakdown of the total 1996 3.0 2.6 15.2 20.9 100.0 population by economic status of family for each of the last 1997 2.6 2.2 15.0 19.8 100.0 30 years (108102). 1998 2.3 1.8 15.5 19.6 100.0 The ONS regularly publishes information on the economic 1999 2.2 1.8 15.0 19.0 100.0 status of households but this data only goes back to 1996. The 2000 2.0 1.5 15.0 18.5 100.0 latest information which is for April to June of each year, up to 2001 1.8 1.4 15.3 18.5 100.0 2011, can be found in the following table. 2002 1.8 1.3 15.3 18.4 100.0 It shows that for 2011 there are 20.6 million households in the 2003 1.6 1.3 15.0 17.9 100.0 UK that contain at least one adult aged 16 to 64. Of these 53.5% 2004 1.5 1.3 15.0 17.8 100.0 are where all adults in the household are working, 27.7% are 2005 1.5 1.1 15.2 17.9 100.0 households containing a mixture of adults in work and out of 2006 1.6 1.4 14.3 17.3 100.0 work and 18.8% are households where no adult works. 2007 1.7 1.4 14.4 17.5 100.0 Households1 by combined economic activity status of household members 2008 1.7 1.3 14.5 17.4 100.0 Not seasonally adjusted 2009 2.4 1.9 14.2 18.5 100.0 Mixed households2 2010 2.7 1.8 14.7 19.2 100.0 Employed 2011 2.8 1.8 14.2 18.8 100.0 April to Employed Employed unemployed June Working and and and All mixed each year households unemployed inactive inactive households Change 0.2 0.0 -0.5 -0.3 0.0 on year Percentage

1996 51.7 4.0 21.9 1.5 27.4 Thousand 1997 53.2 3.6 22.1 1.3 27.0 1996 562 496 2,842 3,899 18,700 1998 53.8 3.2 22.3 1.1 26.6 1997 479 420 2,807 3,705 18,737 1999 54.6 3.2 22.2 1.1 26.5 1998 428 348 2,929 3,705 18,909 2000 55.7 2.9 21.9 1.0 25.8 1999 416 337 2,853 3,606 19,019 2001 56.0 2.6 21.9 1.0 25.6 2000 376 296 2,874 3,546 19,181 2002 56.0 2.8 21.8 1.0 25.7 2001 338 279 2,946 3,563 19,299 2003 56.0 2.8 22.2 1.1 26.1 2002 349 255 2,977 3,581 19,496 2004 56.2 2.8 22.3 1.0 26.1 2003 314 255 2,928 3,497 19,582 2005 56.2 2.8 22.1 1.0 25.9 2004 291 246 2,941 3,478 19,591 2006 56.0 3.3 22.1 1.2 26.6 2005 299 221 3,018 3,539 19,807 2007 55.9 3.1 22.3 1.2 26.6 2006 327 271 2,844 3,443 19,879 2008 56.0 3.2 22.2 1.2 26.6 2007 330 278 2,893 3,502 20,023 2009 53.8 4.6 21.5 1.5 27.7 2008 337 257 2,933 3,527 20,214 2010 53.0 4.4 21.7 1.6 27.8 2009 493 382 2,891 3,767 20,315 2011 53.5 4.4 21.5 1.7 27.7 2010 546 364 3,005 3,915 20,407 2011 583 372 2,923 3,877 20,574 Change 0.5 0.0 -0.2 0.1 -0.1 on year Change 37 7 -82 -38 167 on year Thousand 1 Households including at least one person aged 16 to 64. 2 1996 9,672 745 4,103 279 5,128 Mixed households contain both working and workless members. 3 While the LFS goes back further than 1996, statistics on work and worklessness 1997 9,974 682 4,136 241 5,059 only go back to this date. 1998 10,177 612 4,211 204 5,027 Source: 1999 10,376 600 4,229 207 5,036 Labour Force Survey household datasets 2000 10,682 554 4,208 190 4,953 2001 10,802 509 4,228 198 4,935 Public Expenditure 2002 10,914 553 4,257 191 5,001 2003 10,975 543 4,353 214 5,110 Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2004 11,001 545 4,366 201 5,112 Office if he will publish a statement of his Department’s 2005 11,137 550 4,379 202 5,131 expenditure in each of the last 36 months; and what 2006 11,141 664 4,395 237 5,296 steps his Department takes to avoid an annual underspend. 2007 11,201 623 4,456 241 5,320 [108617] 2008 11,312 643 4,495 237 5,375 2009 10,920 942 4,376 310 5,628 Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office publishes a full set of 2010 10,812 907 4,437 336 5,680 accounts every year, audited by the National Audit 2011 10,999 914 4,428 356 5,698 Office. Copies of the accounts for 2009-10 and 2010-11 are available at the following links: Change 187 7 -9 19 18 on year http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1011/hc02/ 0282/0282.asp 769W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 770W

http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1012/hc09/ in the last 12 months were employed by an employer at 0999/0999.asp the time of the survey, with a further 4% being self The Cabinet Office accounts for 2011-12 are still employed. being audited. As part of my Department’s transparency programme, Apprentices: Bexley detailed expenditure information, including all transactions over £25,000 and payments made by GPC card over Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for £500, can be found at: Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses in http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cabinet- the London borough of Bexley employ an apprentice. office-spend-data [108557] The Cabinet Office reviews its expenditure and forecasts on a regular basis, taking particular care not to overspend Mr Hayes: Data is collected at the workplace rather against its agreed budget. than the business level, with some businesses having several workplaces. In Bexley local education authority My Department does not spend simply to avoid an there were 470 workplaces with at least one apprentice underspend. If during the year the reviews of expenditure in-learning in the 2010/11 academic year. and forecast indicated an overall underspend, we would discuss the possibility of utilising the Budget Exchange Information on the number of apprenticeship starts mechanism with HM Treasury at the earliest opportunity. is published in a quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 29 March Redundancy 2012: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Mr Redwood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many of his Department’s employees have Further breakdowns are available in SFR supplementary tables: been made redundant in the last two years. [108077] http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Mr Maude: The last two years of published information statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ on redundancies and other paid departures in the Cabinet ERASMUS Office are available in the Cabinet Office report and accounts for 2009-10 and 2010-11 on the Cabinet Office website at: Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cabinet- Innovation and Skills which UK institutions have taken office-annual-reports-and-accounts part in the European Commission’s Erasmus Mundus External Co-operation Window. [108369] Audited figures for the number of redundancies and other paid departures during 2011-12 are not yet available Mr Willetts: Following the incorporation of the External but will be published in the Cabinet Office report and Co-operation Window into the second phase of Erasmus accounts 2011-12. Mundus (2009-13) as Action 2, Strand 1, the following UK Higher Institutions have been awarded funding to participate in the programme: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS 2011 The City University Apprentices University of Wales Institute, Cardiff The university of Newcastle-upon-Tyne Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for The university of Glasgow Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department University of Glamorgan has taken to encourage companies which offer The university of Westminster apprenticeships to hire the apprentice after they have University College London completed their training. [108551] The university of Leeds Mr Willetts: Apprentices must be formally employed Bournemouth University during their apprenticeship and a large number are The university of Kent employed on permanent contracts which continue once 2010 their training has completed. University of Wales Institute, Cardiff After investing heavily in an apprentice, it makes The City University business sense for the employer to keep employing the Swansea Metropolitan university individual when their apprenticeship ends. Oxford Brookes university Evidence shows that apprenticeships deliver economic University College London and social benefits to individuals in terms of higher Staffordshire University wages and improved employment prospects; to businesses University of the West of England, Bristol in the form of higher profits and increased competitiveness; and to the wider economy and society as a whole. We Prior to the second phase of Erasmus Mundus, the will continue to champion these benefits to encourage following UK Higher Education institutions participated employers to invest in apprenticeships. The recent in the External Cooperation Window: apprenticeship survey published on 15 May shows that 2009 85% of apprentices who completed their apprenticeship The university of Westminster 771W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 772W

The university of Southampton of Bologna Experts and representatives of the Education, The university of Kent Audiovisual and Culture Executive Agency. These events are designed to promote programmes funded by the European University College London Commission including Tempus, and provide practical information The university of Bath to support those institutions considering applying. These events The university of Cambridge will include a Tempus information day which will be widely promoted to UK HEI’s and will be held shortly after the 2008 invitation to submit applications is announced by the European Cardiff University Commission. The university of Westminster Arrange for members of the UK team of Bologna Experts to The university of Brighton visit HEI’s to provide counselling sessions and present workshops on the opportunities available to institutions through European The university of Southampton Commission funded programmes including Tempus. The university of York Offer direct support and guidance to institutions The university of Manchester throughout the year including those currently participating Staffordshire University in the Tempus programme and those interested in The university of Bradford submitting an application. The university of Cambridge 2007 Higher Education: Risk Assessments The university of Southampton Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for European Commission: Higher Education Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to his answer of 16 May 2012, Official Report, column 137W, on risk Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, assessment, what risk registers his Department holds in Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the relation to universities; and if he will make a statement. number and proportion of educational projects under [109089] the Tempus IV of the European Commission colleges that have been awarded to UK universities. [108364] Mr Willetts: BIS provides support to universities for teaching and research. Each of the workstreams within Mr Willetts: The deadline for the submission of this support system has in place a programme with the applications for the fifth round of Tempus IV was appropriate governance, project management and assurance 23 February 2012. structures and processes to identify, manage and escalate risks. BIS does not hold risk registers for individual In all, 530 proposals were received by the Commission. universities. 180 proposals involved a UK higher education institution (32 proposals are to be coordinated by a UK higher Manpower education institution). These proposals are currently being evaluated by the Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Commission. The evaluation committee is due to conclude Innovation and Skills how many full-time equivalent the assessment of proposals by 6 July 2012. employees his Department employed in May 2010; and The results for previous rounds are as follows: how many it employed at the latest period for which figures are available. [108159] Selected proposals involving a UK higher Norman Lamb: The Department for Business, Innovation Round Total selected proposals education institution and Skills (BIS) employed 3,492 full-time equivalent 46224employees in May 2010. The latest available figures, as 36419at March 2012, show BIS employs 2,930 full-time equivalent 26924employees. The figures include UK Trade and Investment. 18420Manufacturing Industries

Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has increase the proportion of the European Commission’s made of the report, Manufacturing the Future, by Tempus IV projects being signed with UK institutions. BDO LLP; and whether he plans to implement the [108368] recommendations of the report relating to (a) the establishment of an industrial bank, (b) working with Mr Willetts: As the UK’s national contact point, the the Department for Education to ensure the education British Council is responsible for supporting UK higher system develops the skills needed for manufacturing education institutions wishing to participate, or currently and engineering, (c) more patriotism in the awarding participating in Tempus. of Government contracts and (d) greater innovation In 2012/13 the British Council will support UK higher by his Department in providing funding support for the education institutions (HEIs) as follows: manufacturing and engineering sector. [108392] Provide information to the network of HEI’s on Tempus and opportunities to apply for Tempus funding via online media Mr Prisk: We are grateful to BDO LLP for their including web content and e-flyers. contribution to the debate on how we grow manufacturing Organise events bringing together representatives of UK HEI’s, in the UK. The Government fully recognises the importance experienced Tempus practitioners, members of the UK team of manufacturing, its vital contribution to the growth 773W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 774W of a more sustainable UK economy and its key role in Funding of £100 million to support investment in major new rebalancing the economy, which is why it remains central university research facilities, bids in 2012-13 with co-investment to the Strategy for Growth. In respect of the specific from the private sector; areas highlighted by the hon. Member, the Government The final two Catapult Centres, in Transport Systems and is acting as follows: Future Cities; (a) Ensuring that businesses are able to access the A cut in corporation tax of an additional 1% this year so that it falls to 22% by 2014, meaning the UK’s main rate will the credit they need to start and grow is a Government lowest in the G7 and the 4th lowest in the G20; priority. Discussion about an industrial bank is not The Patent Box, which will be introduced from April 2013, will new. It is right that Government actively considers all of give a reduced rate of 10% corporation tax on profits from the available options to support the economic recovery. patents and certain other similar types of intellectual property. (b) BIS works closely with the Department for Education It is vital that we rebuild manufacturing supply chains. to ensure Government policies to attract students to We have already committed £7 million for supply chain science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) activity to the Manufacturing Advisory Service,: subjects throughout their educational careers are coherent. www.mymas.org BIS’s partnership with the Department for Education (DFE) also looks to ensure that the education system which was relaunched in January. And following the delivers the skills needed by the manufacturing and second manufacturing summit in February we launched engineering sectors. For example at a meeting on 8 May the £125 million Advanced Manufacturing Supply Chain chaired by the Minister for Further Education, Skills Initiative, which will be used to improve the global and Lifelong Learning, my hon. Friend the Member for competitiveness of UK advanced manufacturing supply South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), industry chains by supporting innovative projects where the UK and awarding organisations agreed their involvement in is well placed to take a global lead. The competition has the development of new qualifications which will reflect two funding streams with deadlines for applications the quality and attractiveness of the Engineering Diploma falling in June and September. More details can be and Principal Learning in Engineering, while recognising found on the Technology Strategy Board website: the learning time involved in delivering this. http://www.innovateuk.org/content/competition/advanced- manufacturing-supply-chain-initiative.ashx (c) On procurement, the Government has a responsibility to purchase high quality goods and services which offer At the manufacturing summit in February, we announced value for money for the UK taxpayer. But we also want an additional £1 billion for a further round of the to do this in a way that supports UK-based business in Regional Growth Fund—taking the fund total to £2.4 key growth areas. We believe the current framework is billion. Manufacturing is one of the biggest winners so well suited to help us do that. far, and was allocated around £420 million in the first two rounds. More information can be found at: In November, we announced that we would take a new approach to procurement that takes greater www.bis.gov.uk/rgf consideration of its impact on UK-based businesses. The closing date for applications is 13 June. We published a forward programme of work across a number of sectors, updated with an additional £70 New Businesses billion in April, and we will continue to expand upon this. This will provide greater certainty to industry. But we will also use this information to develop sector Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for strategies in partnership with industry, to strengthen Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has supply chains in the UK. made of the number of new business mentors recruited in (a) Lancashire, (b) the North West and (c) England We want the public sector to be a responsible customer in the latest period for which figures are available. and develop a collaborative long-term relationship with [109064] our supply chain. This can help businesses plan for and develop the long-term capabilities the UK needs. Mr Prisk: Get Mentoring is a SFEDI-led (Small Further information can be found at: Firms Enterprise Development Initiative) project, supported http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/news/70-billion-potential- by grant funding (from both BIS and the Government government-business-published-boost-uk-growth Equalities Office), to recruit and train 15,000 volunteer business mentors from the small and medium-sized (d) The best ways in which the can Government enterprise (SME) community. support the manufacturing and engineering sectors is at the heart of a range of ongoing discussions between To date, over 11,000 volunteers have been recruited Government and industry which inform all our activity. through this initiative, around 12% of whom are based We have already hosted two manufacturing summits, in the north west. This estimate is only approximate and and through joint industry/government councils and based on the location of the workshop they attended. other forums, we are developing strategies in key sectors, We do not currently have the data to ascertain how including Automotive, Aerospace and Maritime. many were recruited from Lancashire specifically. In the Budget we were able to respond to some of the issues raised in these discussions with: North Africa and Middle East An ambition to increase exports from £488 billion in 2011 to £1 trillion by 2020 as part of the National Export Challenge; Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Investment of £60 million to establish a UK centre for aerodynamics Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department to open in 2012-13 to support innovation in aerospace technology is taking to encourage the use of renewable energy and and commercialise new ideas; recycling in the Middle East and North Africa. [108224] 775W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 776W

Mr Prisk: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office The payments were all made in accordance with the and the Department of Energy and Climate Change Civil Service Compensation Scheme rules that are lead the Government’s international efforts to promote administered by the Cabinet Office. sustainable economic growth around the world, including secure and affordable energy, resource efficiency and Retail Trade: Newspaper Press low carbon solutions. UK Trade & Investment supports this work by promoting Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, UK capability in the renewable and environment sectors. Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to support Current initiatives include a visit to the UK for the small retailers and newsagents following the 2009 Office All-Energy Exhibition and Conference, the UK’s largest of Fair Trading decision not to refer the newspaper and renewable energy event, by UKTI commercial officers magazine distribution sector to the Competition from north Africa and the middle east; a visit by UK Commission. [108637] companies to Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia focusing on solar and onshore wind generation; and we shall use Norman Lamb: The Office of Fair Trading is the the British Business Embassy at Lancaster House during UK’s competition and consumer protection authority, the Olympics to showcase UK capabilities in renewable with responsibilities covering the whole economy. energy and recycling to a global audience, including senior public and private sector decision makers from The Government is actively working to help all retailers. the middle east and north Africa. Retail is vitally important to local and national economies. This was why it was chosen to be one of the first sectors Patents: EU Action to undergo the growth review process, and was the first sector to undergo the Red Tape Challenge. These initiatives identified a number of barriers to successful retail Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for performance and growth, which the Government is Business, Innovation and Skills what progress he has working to address. made on the UK’s bid to host the European Patent Court; and if he will make a statement. [109108] Through the growth review the Government has committed to extending small business rate relief and Norman Lamb: The Government wants to see a Europe- announced that 160 regulations impacting on retailers wide patent system that brings real benefits for innovative or their customers will be scrapped or simplified. We businesses, consumers and the economy. Negotiations are also conducting a review of employment law. on the whole package of European patent reform, In March, the Government’s formal response to the including the unitary patent and unified patent court, recommendations made by Mary Portas in her report, are still ongoing. The location of the central division of “An Independent Review into the Future of our High the unified patent court is an important issue which is Streets”, was published by the Department for Communities still being discussed. It is also important that we get the and Local Government details of how the court will work right. The report contained 28 recommendations, raising a The Government has made a strong case for the UK number of important issues affecting today’s high streets to host the seat of the central division of the patent and provided some useful and interesting ways in which court. This was set out in the letter the Minister for Government, local authorities, business and the public Intellectual Property sent to the Polish Government, can begin to address them. who were then coordinating the negotiations, in December Department for Communities and Local Government 2011. took immediate action in implementing some of the The Danish Government, who are currently coordinating recommendations, including on high street pilots. the negotiations, are trying to agree a deal on the patent BIS lead on three recommendations, de-regulation/Red court by June this year. We are an active and positive Tape Challenge, Mentoring and Company Reporting. participant in those ongoing discussions and remain Retailers are also able to benefit from the same range strongly committed to locating the central division of of support offered by BIS to help small and medium the unified patent court in the UK. We are also determined businesses to start and thrive through: that the details of the proposals deliver the most effective arrangements for UK business and their representatives Improved access to finance. who will use the court. A more positive business environment which supports growth and ease of starting a business, and where new businesses and economic opportunities are more evenly shared between regions Redundancy and industries. A major programme to reform the way that people running a Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, business get the information, guidance and support they need Innovation and Skills how many of his Department’s to start and grow a business. employees have been made redundant in the last two Building a more entrepreneurial culture, equipping people years. [108065] with the skills and ambition to start a business.

Norman Lamb: The Department for Business, Innovation Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills (BIS) ran a voluntary exit scheme in September- Business, Innovation and Skills what meetings he has October 2010, under which 330 staff left the Department. had to discuss competition issues in the newspaper and In February 2011 the Department launched a redundancy magazine supply chain with representatives from (a) scheme which resulted in a further 259 staff leaving. 242 newspaper and magazine publishers, (b) newspaper of these staff left on voluntary redundancy terms while wholesalers and (c) newspaper and magazine retailers the remaining 17 were made compulsory redundant. representatives. [108638] 777W Written Answers23 MAY 2012 Written Answers 778W

Norman Lamb: Issues relating to competition in the A quarterly-updated list of all BIS ministerial meetings newspaper and magazine sector is a matter for the with external organisations is also available at: Department of Culture, Media and Sport. As such I http://www.data.gov.uk/dataset/disclosure-ministerial- have not met with representatives of the industry to hospitality-received-department-for-business discuss competition issues. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 23 May 2012

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1113 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Clean Water and Sanitation ...... 1115 Topical Questions ...... 1120 Copenhagen Consensus Recommendations ...... 1119 Women’s Health (Egypt) ...... 1117 Occupied Palestinian Territories ...... 1113 Occupied Palestinian Territories ...... 1118 PRIME MINISTER ...... 1122 Official Development Assistance...... 1117 Engagements...... 1122 Post-MDG Framework (Women and Girls)...... 1119 Engagements...... 1126 The Sahel ...... 1115 Youth Unemployment...... 1125 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 23 May 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 65WS HEALTH...... 71WS UK Space Agency (Performance Targets) ...... 65WS Consultation on Shared Decision Making ...... 71WS

CABINET OFFICE...... 65WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 72WS State of the Estate 2011...... 65WS Explanatory Statements on Amendments (Pilot) ... 72WS TRANSPORT ...... 73WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 68WS Maritime and Coastguard Agency ...... 73WS Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council ...... 68WS TREASURY ...... 66WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 70WS ECOFIN...... 66WS Committee on Radioactive Waste Management..... 70WS Enterprise Management Incentives ...... 67WS Tax Policy Consultation...... 67WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 70WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 74WS Consular Procedures ...... 70WS Wage Incentives for Work Choice ...... 74WS PETITION

Wednesday 23 May 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION VAT on Static Caravans...... 11P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 23 May 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 769W CABINET OFFICE—continued Apprentices...... 769W Carbon Emissions...... 765W Apprentices: Bexley...... 770W Charities ...... 765W ERASMUS...... 770W Complaints ...... 765W European Commission: Higher Education...... 771W Fuel Oil: Coventry ...... 766W Higher Education: Risk Assessments...... 772W Israel...... 766W Manpower...... 772W Major Projects Authority...... 766W Manufacturing Industries ...... 772W Population ...... 766W New Businesses ...... 774W Public Expenditure...... 768W North Africa and Middle East ...... 774W Redundancy...... 769W Patents: EU Action ...... 775W Redundancy...... 775W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 679W Retail Trade: Newspaper Press...... 776W Bed and Breakfast Accommodation ...... 679W Building Regulations...... 680W CABINET OFFICE...... 763W Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats...... 681W Big Lottery Fund ...... 763W Non-domestic Rates...... 682W Bowel Cancer...... 763W Public Expenditure...... 682W Business ...... 764W Public Sector...... 683W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL continued AFFAIRS...... 701W Social Rented Housing...... 683W Biofuels: Pollution...... 701W Temporary Accommodation ...... 684W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 702W Trade Unions ...... 684W Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats...... 702W Consultants...... 702W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 697W Floods: Stoke on Trent...... 703W Football ...... 697W Food ...... 703W Lost Property...... 698W Horses: Infectious Diseases...... 703W Meetings ...... 698W Manpower...... 704W Members...... 699W Power Stations: Pollution ...... 704W Public Expenditure...... 699W Risk Assessment ...... 704W Tourism...... 700W Sheep ...... 705W UN Conference on Sustainable Development ...... 705W DEFENCE...... 715W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 711W Aircraft Carriers ...... 715W Diplomatic Service: Training...... 711W Armed Forces: Mental Illness ...... 716W Iraq...... 712W Armed Forces: Officers ...... 717W Israel...... 713W Armed Forces: Pay...... 718W Mali ...... 713W Armed forces: Schizophrenia ...... 718W North Africa and Middle East ...... 714W Arms Trade...... 718W Yemen ...... 715W Army...... 719W Army: Scotland...... 719W Carbon Emissions...... 720W HEALTH...... 686W Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 720W Carbon Emissions...... 686W Consultants...... 721W Clinical Psychologists: Prison Service ...... 687W Defence: Procurement...... 721W Eyesight: Testing...... 688W Devonport Dockyard...... 721W General Practitioners: Pay ...... 689W Disclosure of Information ...... 721W Meetings ...... 690W Freedom of Information ...... 722W Mental Health Services: Veterans...... 691W Harrier Aircraft ...... 722W Trade Unions ...... 692W Iraq Conflict ...... 722W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 723W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 673W Manpower...... 723W Asylum: Young People...... 673W Military Aircraft: Training ...... 724W Deportation: Offenders...... 673W Military Decorations...... 724W Domestic Violence ...... 674W Military Police ...... 725W Human Trafficking ...... 674W Nimrod Aircraft...... 726W Illegal Immigrants: Deportation ...... 675W Queen’s Dragoon Guards...... 726W Immigration Controls ...... 675W Redundancy...... 726W Public Sector...... 675W Veterans: Prisoners...... 727W Risk Assessment ...... 676W Victim Support Schemes ...... 676W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 676W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 677W House of Lords: Reform...... 676W Portcullis House...... 677W

EDUCATION...... 736W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 760W Academies...... 736W Arab Partnership Fund ...... 761W Academies: Primary Education...... 736W Complaints ...... 761W Adoption: Reading (Berkshire) ...... 737W Jordan Valley: Water Supplies...... 761W Apprentices: West Midlands ...... 739W Meetings ...... 762W Children and Young Persons Act 1933...... 739W Procurement Policy ...... 761W Children in Care: Missing Persons ...... 741W Rio+20 Conference...... 760W Children: Poverty ...... 741W Sahel ...... 762W Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats...... 742W Small and Medium-sized Enterprises ...... 761W Email ...... 743W Free School Meals: Durham ...... 744W JUSTICE...... 750W Home Education...... 745W Courts: Enforcement...... 750W Lost Property...... 745W Family Courts: Worcestershire ...... 751W Manpower...... 746W Fraud: Direct Mail...... 752W Primary Education: Birmingham ...... 745W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 753W Schools: Admissions ...... 747W Lost Property...... 754W Schools: Shropshire...... 748W Members: Correspondence ...... 754W Trade Unions ...... 748W Parc Prison...... 754W Prisons: Video Recordings ...... 754W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 677W Private Prosecutions...... 754W Electricity: Prices ...... 677W Procurement...... 755W Energy: Housing ...... 678W Public Sector...... 756W Fuel Oil: West Midlands ...... 678W Restraint Techniques: Safety ...... 756W Heysham Power Stations...... 679W Russia ...... 757W Public Sector...... 679W Unpaid Fines ...... 758W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TREASURY ...... 707W Victim Support Schemes ...... 760W Carbon Emissions...... 707W Corporation Tax ...... 708W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 671W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 709W Carbon Emissions...... 671W Financial Services: Education ...... 709W Complaints ...... 672W International Monetary Fund...... 710W Lost Property...... 672W Revenue and Customs...... 710W VAT ...... 711W PRIME MINISTER ...... 700W Ministers: Codes of Practice ...... 700W WALES...... 671W Carbon Emissions...... 671W SCOTLAND...... 672W Carbon Emissions...... 672W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 727W Complaints ...... 672W Atos Healthcare ...... 727W Lost Property...... 673W Carbon Emissions...... 727W Children: Maintenance ...... 728W TRANSPORT ...... 705W Employment Schemes ...... 729W A683 ...... 705W Incapacity Benefit ...... 729W Lost Property...... 706W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 729W Manpower...... 706W Pension Funds: Overseas Investment ...... 730W Midland Main Line...... 706W Pensioners: Income ...... 731W Public Sector...... 706W Personal Independence Payment...... 733W Rotherham Station...... 707W Social Security Benefits: Data Protection...... 734W Trade Unions ...... 707W Universal Credit...... 734W West Coast Main Line ...... 707W Working Hours ...... 734W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 23 May 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1113] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 1135]

G8 and NATO Summits [Col. 1136] Statement—(Prime Minister)

Public Appointees (Tax Arrangements) [Col. 1159] Statement—(Danny Alexander)

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform [Col. 1171] Bill presented, and read the First time

Electoral Registration and Administration [Col. 1172] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Harper) Amendment—(Mr David)—on a Division, negatived Motion, on a Division, agreed to Programme motion—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1254]

Yacht and Boat Delivery Companies (Safety Regulations) [Col. 1255] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Hot Takeaway Food [Col. 67WH] Pancreatic Cancer [Col. 91WH] Dangerous Dogs [Col. 99WH] Scottish-recruited Units [Col. 126WH] Petrol and Diesel [Col. 135WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 65WS]

Petition [Col. 11P] Presented Petition

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 671W] [see index inside back page]