Second Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, April 13, 2010 Morning Sitting Volume 14, Number 1

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Second Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Iain Black Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Official Opposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Claire Trevena Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Terry Lake Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Pat Pimm Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Tuesday, April 13, 2010 Morning Sitting

Page

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills...... 4171 Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act (continued) C. Trevena D. Barnett B. Simpson D. McRae H. Lali

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 4189 Estimates: Ministry of Housing and Social Development Hon. R. Coleman S. Simpson K. Corrigan

4171

TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 2010 to, or actually are, a flat tax. Whether you earn $150,000 or $50,000 or are trying to survive on the minimum The House met at 10:03 a.m. wage, if you need to use a ferry or you want to go to a provincial park, have an eye test or need the chiroprac- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] tor, you are paying the same. Now, what we have here with this bill is the removal of Prayers. one flat tax and the replacement with a higher flat tax on more items. No wonder that 82 percent of the people in Orders of the Day this province think this is a tax grab by the Liberal gov- ernment. It is. They are right. Hon. M. de Jong: In Committee A, I call Committee Those being helped through the introduction of this of Supply — for the information of members, the on- tax are some businesses, some of which have already going estimates of the Ministry of Housing and Social had big handouts from the government through mas- Development — and in this chamber the continuing sive subsidies and preferential treatment. This may help second reading debate on Bill 9. some already benefiting from the Liberal government largesse. It certainly won't help the majority of people Second Reading of Bills in this province and definitely not those people in the north Island who are struggling, as I talked about last Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate night — people who are still looking for work, working and Transition Act their way through a forest industry that has collapsed (continued) under the last ten years of Liberal government. I had an e-mail the other day from a constituent who's C. Trevena: When I left off last night, I'd started to trying to decide whether she should continue to work touch on the question of regressive versus progressive and send her child to after-school child care or quit taxation and the need for an honest debate on tax policy. work and look after her child herself. It had nothing to This is something that has been raised by many mem- do with the philosophy of how she should bring up her bers in this House — that we do need that debate. child and everything to do with the fact that the cost of child care is more than she earns. She earns just a bit too [L. Reid in the chair.] much to qualify for subsidies. As she said in her very poignant e-mail to me, she's TheH ST is a regressive flat tax. That means that the -bu being forced into poverty, and she is one of thousands rden falls on consumers, and it falls unfairly. No matter of people in this province who are forced from what was what you earn, you're paying that extra 7 percent for gym a pretty comfortable middle-class life in B.C. to poverty, membership, for newspapers, for vitamins, for a massage, to having to decide whether she can afford to go to work for classes, to take your cat to the vet, for a bicycle, for a or have her child in after-school care. haircut, for a restaurant meal, for a cup of coffee, if you're It's poverty that has been exacerbated over these buying real estate. It's all going to add up. last few years and that will get worse, without question, When it comes to taxes, for individuals it is much when there is an extra 7 percent coming through on bills fairer to have a progressive system. The more you earn; and on shopping that was not there in the past. Starting the more tax you pay. It may seem old-fashioned, but in May and definitely in July, people like this lady are go- it is a very good way to redistribute the wealth of our ing to be paying an extra 7 percent. province and of our country. That is what helps to build The end of the PST, as conveyed through this bill, and a society. the introduction of the HST is a tax grab. It is unfair, [1005] and it will disproportionately affect thousands of people Instead, what we've seen over the last ten years are in this province, who'll be much poorer and do without personal income tax cuts and fees hiked for MSP, which many, many things that they need because of it. is going up now every time health care goes up; for other That is why my constituents want me to oppose this health care that used to be covered by MSP; for the use bill, why I will oppose this bill, why members on this of our parks; for the use of our ferries. And with all these side of the House will oppose this bill and why I hope increases, there's the increasing cost of schooling from that this bill will actually be defeated. textbooks through to school trips, textbooks being paid for by parents, all this downloaded on parents. Then we D. Barnett: I rise today to speak in support of Bill 9, get to post-secondary education, and the fees are once the Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act. The again increased. harmonized sales tax will simplify tax collection for the So I'd say: so much for the claim that taxes have been thousands of businesses in this province. The savings reduced. These increases in costs and fees are equivalent for industry and businesses will be substantial. These 4172 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

savings will be passed on to consumers. Why? Because subsidy, 80 percent subsidy for those from $22,001 to businesses compete against each other for your dollar. $24,000, 60 percent subsidy for those from $24,001 to With a reduced burden of paying tax on their business $26,000, 40 percent for those from $26,001 to $28,000 inputs, their costs will be lower. and 20 percent for those from $28,001 to $30,000. My decision to support the implementation of HST isn't about who is right or who is wrong but about what [C. Trevena in the chair.] is best for the Cariboo-Chilcotin and British Columbia. There is so much misinformation out there regarding Since PharmaCare was introduced by this govern- the HST that I feel it necessary to state some facts. ment, low-income families earning $14,000 or less Before I continue explaining why I support Bill 9, per year pay absolutely nothing for prescription drugs. I would like to clear up the concept of a vote on HST. Any person born before 1939 and who earns less than Some in this House already know this, but many people $33,000 per year pays no deductible for PharmaCare. in B.C. do not understand. There is no vote on the HST The deductible for a family with a net income of because the legislation introducing the HST has already $30,000 was $1,000 prior to Fair PharmaCare. Today been passed in Ottawa. that deductible is $600. The maximum that same family [1010] would pay in one year prior to PharmaCare was $2,000. The provincial bill introduced March 30 simply repeals Today that family pays only $900. the provincial sales tax, repeals the provincial portion of For example, a single mother with one child, earning the hotel room tax and sets out regulations to ensure a $28,000 per year and with $2,000 in annual drug costs proper transition to the HST. The HST is a federal cre- pays 29 percent less under the PharmaCare plan than ation, so the provincial bill simply eliminates all vestiges she did in 2001. of the provincial sales tax in order to set the stage. For these reasons and many others, I support Bill 9 Lower-income British Columbians unquestionably and the implementation of the HST. It simply makes will come out ahead with the HST and the associated tax sense to reduce the complications and redundancy of cuts and credits. The people of the Cariboo-Chilcotin paying tax on tax. need to know this. It will cost nothing more to fill your I'd like to outline how business small and large in prescriptions due to HST. It will cost nothing more to the Cariboo-Chilcotin will benefit from the HST. HST put gasoline in your vehicle due to HST. benefits business and the employees of all businesses. A provincially administered point-of-sale rebate for Employees are also true beneficiaries. When companies residential energy will also ensure that the HST will not gain competitive advantages, they can grow and expand, increase consumers' cost for oil, electricity, natural gas hiring more people for the long term. or propane used to heat or power homes. It will cost [1015] nothing more to heat your homes due to HST. Any item Currently PST is applied at every step in the creation that presently has GST and PST in the total cost will not of a product. Those multiple PST charges are embedded change due to HST. in the price you pay at the store, even though you can't In addition, like the GST, the HST will not apply to see it, and of course, you pay PST on the final purchase basic groceries and residential rent, two items which price. account for a large proportion of total expenditures by Under the current PST system embedded PST results those with lower incomes. in higher production costs, less investment, fewer jobs Almost all other items that are currently zero-rated or and lower wages. Under the proposed HST system those exempt from the GST will also be zero-rated or exempt embedded costs are removed for savings. The proposed from the HST. There will be point-of-sale rebates similar HST will remove about $2 billion worth of embedded to PST exemptions for the provincial portion of the HST PST and will result in more investment, jobs and higher on gasoline and diesel fuel for motor vehicles, and that wages. includes any biofuel components. Costs of doing business will come down as the 5 per- HST tax credits will be paid quarterly with the GST cent GST rebate on business inputs increases to a 12 credit to more than 1.1 million British Columbians, percent HST rebate. Currently only GST taxable items are one-quarter of the population: a $230 tax credit for each refunded. Under the HST, the full 12 percent comes back individual that makes less than 20,000 per year, a $230 to the business through the input tax credit system. tax credit per family member for families with incomes Due to our tax structure in 2001, small business was up to $25,000. This means $920 for a family of four. leaving British Columbia almost daily and setting up When combined with the recently introduced climate in Alberta. Today they are starting to move back due to action credit, low-income British Columbians will now the fact that we are now competitive with the Alberta be eligible for up to $340 a year in provincial credits. rate and will have a zero small business tax rate by 2011. Please keep in mind that for many persons making Large corporations were also leaving British Columbia less than $22,000 per year, you have 100 percent MSP and moving to the east in the '90s. Today we are starting Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4173

to see them come back as we now have one of the most More than 130 countries, including 29 of the 30 competitive tax structures in the world. This is the right OECD countries, have adopted similar taxes. B.C.'s step to take for B.C.'s economy, as it will encourage a move to implement an HST will bring us into line with competitive business climate here in B.C. and make our what is viewed as the most effective form of sales taxa- exports more competitive abroad. tion in the world. Not only will the provincial portion of HST become Although the idea of harmonized sales tax has been reclaimable for business; HST will lower the cost of around for years, it was only this year that the federal goods and services. This will result in additional savings, government finally made it attractive and flexible for our which increases the buying power of your dollar. All Finance Minister to decide that now was the right time. things considered, the HST will mean savings, benefits These changes allow B.C. to set its own tax rate, and and jobs for all of the people of British Columbia. ours will be the lowest HST in Canada. Newfoundland B.C. will save approximately $30 million in admin- and Labrador, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick all have istrative costs because the federal government will HST. Quebec has a VAT called the Quebec sales tax, and administer the HST at no cost to the province. This will Ontario plans to introduce an HST as of July 1, 2010. result in additional funds available for social programs Each of these provinces has a rate of 13 percent. B.C. such as health, education and social assistance. It will intends to have its rate set at 12 percent, the lowest in attract new investment as it increases productivity, and Canada when combined with the federal GST. it will create jobs and long-term economic growth. It is Almost every credible leading economist in the coun- predicted that there will be 113,000 new jobs created in try agrees that harmonizing sales tax is the best way we B.C. over the next decade because of the move to HST. can do to strengthen our economy, improve our com- HST will save all of our industries millions of dollars. petitiveness and create jobs. Who am I to argue with These savings will make the difference between some leading economists about improving and modernizing businesses staying open rather than shutting down. our tax system? Every time one of these businesses decides to stay open, The decision to update and improve our tax collection it means they will save and create jobs. Every time a new may be seen as unpopular, but that's not what leader- business opens, because it can see the savings as a result ship is about. Leadership requires tough decisions to of HST, it creates more jobs. be made, sometimes with unpopular short-term con- An overall boost to the economy and employ- sequences. The long-term benefit from introducing the ment provides an indirect benefit to industries such as HST will be seen. homebuilders, realtors, restaurants. When people are The leadership demonstrated by the Leader of the employed and earning higher wages, they spend more Opposition has been deplorable at best. The opposition money. was opposed to the carbon tax, opposed to the income The harmonized sales tax will reduce costs for B.C.'s tax reductions, and they're opposed to the HST. small and medium-sized businesses by eliminating the The HST is an opportunity to encourage investment PST on business inputs, generating about $2 million in and long-term economic gains for this province. This savings from all businesses that can be passed onto con- is an opportunity to solidify our competitive advantage sumers. Currently businesses pay PST on most of their and modernize our economy. I find it a sad day when the inputs that go into producing or selling their products opposition and the former Premier of the province do and services — for example, taxes paid on office equip- not support economic growth, do not support mining, ment, supplies and furniture, telecommunications, forestry, agriculture — the jobs that support rural B.C. equipment and services, vehicles, and energy to heat and the economic engine of our province, the dollars and light their buildings and power their equipment. that provide for education, health care, social services Under the proposed HST all B.C. businesses will no and other amenities. longer pay tax on these input costs, resulting in savings. As I travel through my riding and discuss HST and To use an example from my riding, think about a log- other issues with my constituents, I ask: what services ging contractor. Under the GST-PST system he buys a should we cut? No one has an answer. It is a sad day pickup truck and a trailer worth $100,000. He now pays when the opposition and the former Premier of B.C. 5 percent GST, 7 percent PST. take good tax policy and use it for their own opportun- [1020] ist political gain. At tax time he can claim the 5 percent GST back as a Will the HST be eliminated? Will the opposition credit, but the 7 percent PST is not refunded. He has to stand in this House today and commit that if they did build that cost into his final product for sale as overhead. form government, they would eliminate the HST? Will It's a cost of doing business. With the HST he'll now the former Premier of B.C. also commit to eliminating be able to claim the full 12 percent back, leaving more the HST if he is back in government? Will the former money in his company to be invested in new equipment, Premier and the opposition leader promise that now to employees and technology. the people of B.C.? 4174 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

B. Simpson: What is a sad day is when a govern- to be ramrodded through here, but we've got this fake ment says in its election platform that it will not impose timeline that somehow we have to adhere to because the HST and then, when it gets elected, does a 180-de- we've got to rush it through for some reason. Again, the gree turnaround and jams it down the throats of British government could allow us full debate and not put that Columbia consumers whether they want it or not. That's self-imposed timeline, could let us have the debate in a a sad day. fulsome manner. Not happening. What is a sad day is when a member of the govern- We also have a problem in British Columbia with ment espouses all of the stuff given by the public affairs how we create legislation, because we create legislation bureau, when, in fact, 4,000 signatures have already in the isolation of the government in the cabinet room been tabled in this House opposed to the HST from that or, in this case, in the Premier's offices, with the pub- member's riding. That's a sad day. lic not involved and not engaged. As a consequence, we [1025] have fewer and fewer people who are engaging in our Our job is to represent the people who elected us and democratic process year over year, election over election, brought us into this House. Our job is to make sure that because we don't engage them in the process. we have taken the time to understand what their real Once again another option is available to this govern- issues are, and our job is to bring those issues into this ment: take this bill to a legislative committee and have House, not the government's rhetoric and not the gov- that legislative committee go around and hold pub- ernment's spin, and that's the problem in this debate. lic hearings, hear from all of the sides involved in this What we're getting is the spin. debate, hear what the implications are and have the op- Now, I will have some more comments to make, but portunity to tailor the bill accordingly, if in fact we're I would make a challenge to the member for Cariboo- going to pursue this path of HST. There are options Chilcotin. I am happy to take this debate outside of this available to democratize this debate that the govern- House. ment is not taking. We share common areas of this province. The popula- What they did was reverse their clearly stated position tion doesn't often discriminate between who represents from the election. They reversed it for a bunch of rea- them in the Williams Lake–150 Mile House area. I am sons, which I'm going to get into, that change on a daily happy to have this debate within the public domain in basis. We just heard some changes in the latest speech front of the constituents who have the ability to vote in from the government member. the next election, and my office will be in touch with the They're not allowing the people of British Columbia member to see if we can effect such a debate in the pub- to engage. I think that's a shame, and I think it drives lic domain. the cynicism that's out there already. If the government We've heard about tough decisions. We've heard about truly felt that HST was the way to go, they should have leadership. We've heard about all of those things. The re- run the election on it. Then we would have seen what ality is that we live in a democratic society where tough would have happened in the election. In some of those decisions should be made in a transparent fashion, with tighter ridings, there might have been a reversal of pos- full public disclosure of the reasons for that decision and itions in this House. with full public disclosure of the implications of that de- What we've got from the government since they intro- cision on taxpayers, on businesses and on the general duced HST is a whole bunch of rationalizations that I'm public, and the implications for our economy. going to walk through to show how disingenuous this That's the problem with this debate, because what we whole debate is. have gotten since the election is disinformation. We've [1030] been given disingenuous reasons as to why HST is com- The first thatI want to address is the Finance Minister ing into British Columbia, and all we've gotten is spin. coming into this House and making claims about what So again, and I've said it many times in this House, let's I've said about HST as a way to try and deflect some table this bill. Let's put it in abeyance. Let's go have the of the criticism that we've been lodging in question debate in public. period. If the government truly believes that this is a good The Finance Minister has raised on the public record tough decision that demonstrates leadership, then show that somehow the member for Cariboo North has indi- that leadership and join with us and come out and have cated he's not opposed to taxes, and he's not opposed the debate in the public domain. Let's talk it out. Let's ex- to harmonization, as a justification and a rationaliz- plain both sides of our arguments. Let's truly honour and ation for why they're right and we're wrong and, also, respect our democracy by engaging citizens as informed, to attempt to create a wedge on this side of the House. intelligent human beings, not as people who don't under- They've named other members that have supposedly stand the difference between spin and reality. supported their position. That challenge isn't being taken up. Not only have So let me finish the statement for theF inance Minister. we got this bill in front of us, not only is the bill going I have indicated that taxes are not wrong, and we need to Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4175

stop responding to taxes in a knee-jerk fashion because minister to read the rest of the statement. So that's the we need a public debate on the role of taxation in good first thing. It's disingenuous to misrepresent members' public services and the role of taxation in having a pro- views in here. gressive society. The second rationale we got from the government So this cannot be, pure and simple, a tax revolt, and I after the election was that HST was not on the radar. hope that Mr. Vander Zalm and others that are out there Our Finance critic and others have hounded this gov- are crystal-clear about that in the initiative. In a debate ernment for what, then, were the studies that were done, around harmonized sales tax, in the collection of sig- immediately post-election to the announcement of HST, natures on the petition, this is not simply a tax revolt in that indicated that it needed to come on the radar and an uninformed fashion. It is about the wrong tax at the needed to be imposed and needed to be imposed as wrong time. quickly as possible. So that's the first thing. I am not opposed to taxes. They haven't been made available to us. In fact, the People need to understand taxes differently. I do agree only study we got was a study that was done recently by with the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin. I often say that an Albertan economist that suddenly became one of the to folks when they come into my office and they com- world's leading economists overnight. So those studies plain about road maintenance, they complain about don't exist. the state of health care, they complain about education. So the question still remains in the public domain. Then I ask them what they feel about taxes, and some- The question still remains in thisH ouse: what was it that how taxes are bad. changed that caused the government to reverse its pos- That thinking has to change. Those are two opposing ition after the ballot boxes were sealed? What caused thoughts because all of those public services have to be them to think that this is the way we had to go? What paid for somehow. So it can't be a tax revolt, and our caused them to think that this was the right time? What stance against HST is not a stance against taxes. caused them to think this was the right tax? Secondly, it's not a stance against harmonization per [1035] se. Harmonization, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. I I think the people of British Columbia have a right to was on the Finance Committee for two years. We heard know what the government was thinking in order for from all kinds of people that they want us to look at har- them to make this decision. That is something that this monizing all of the tax regime between the federal and government has not been able to disclose to us, and it provincial governments, between the municipal and appears as if that kind of thinking doesn't exist. regional governments, because they feel burdened by The second argument that we got from the govern- multiple layers of taxation and multiple bureaucracies. ment on the heels of what was on the radar was that we So looking at harmonizing taxes and doing some har- have to be competitive with Ontario. All of a sudden monization of taxation is not a bad thing. now, Ontario is our biggest competitor on the global Again, there's a disingenuous argument being made scene and with Canada and everything else. We have to by the other side that somehow a recommendation from be competitive with Ontario. Okay. If that's the case, let's the Finance Committee to explore and examine har- be competitive with the Ontario minimum wage. monizing sales tax somehow is this side supporting HST. Oh silence. Let's be competitive with Ontario on min- Again, that is a fallacious argument. It is an argument imum wage. Silence. If Ontario is our benchmark and made in desperation by the government, because all we Ontario is imposing a consumer tax that's going to hit said as members of the Finance Committee is that it's the pocketbooks, they at least are raising the minimum worth exploring. That's all we said. We didn't say: "Jam it wage to a reasonable standard of living where at least down the throats of British Columbians." there's a capacity to absorb some of this incremental hit What I went on to say in the statements about: "This on the consumers. This government is dead silent when isn't about a negative response to taxation; it isn't a nega- it comes to being competitive, when it amounts to mak- tive response to harmonization." I went on to say that ing sure that the people of British Columbia get a living what it is, is a response to a government that was not wage. They still have the $6-an-hour training wage, and truthful with the public about what they were doing with they still have an $8-an-hour wage — the lowest in HST, and it's a response to the timing of harmonization Canada. and the way that the tax is being formed. We totally dis- If that's the rationale…. I'm not sure why Ontario agree with this tax at this time in this way. all of a sudden is a big deal. Yesterday we were debat- I will make that crystal-clear. It is on the public re- ing the western economic union. We've got TILMA cord, and I hope the minister stops using the first part with Alberta. In fact, if you look at what's happening of my statement unless he's willing to read the rest of — Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Washington State my statement on to the public record, in which I make — where consumers have the ability to get in their car claims against this government that I will be ruled out and go spend their dollars, they don't have HST. That's of order if I make them in this House. So I challenge the not on the price point in those areas. 4176 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

It's easy for the consumers to take that little bit of dis- lion is going to come from and who's going to bear the posable income they've got and go over to Alberta or burden of that. go down to Washington State and spend their money They claim that costs will be reduced because the there. How does that help small- and medium-sized businesses and corporations that are getting the benefits businesses in our small communities that are in border of the input tax credits will send those cost reductions towns, in the Peace and the Kootenays, down along the on in terms of pricing. I don't think so. There's no sub- U.S. border? stantiation of that in any of the studies that have looked If it's about competitiveness, then let's have the de- at HST. The prices have not changed. bate about who we are trying to be competitive with, at Now, the Finance Minister did indicate one of his what level, on what goods and services and what this logics is that he thinks that the price of food produced means in terms of the ability of British Columbians to in British Columbia should come down as a result of the take their dollars out of this province and spend them input tax credit. in other provinces. I suggest that the Finance Minister needs to get out Then the next argument we got from the govern- more and go talk to the apple growers, go talk to the egg ment was that it was going to be revenue-neutral. Well, producers, go talk to the milk producers about how they we've found out that that's not true. Again, a typical are losing money month over month, year over year, and argument from the government members — the mem- any bump that they get from input tax credits is to help ber for Cariboo-Chilcotin put it forward — that the them remain solvent. It will not make its way to the con- money saved from the harmonization in administrative sumers, because they have no room in their pricing to costs will somehow accrue to better public services and actually reduce their prices and absorb that cost. goods. The Finance Minister should go and have those dis- Yet, as we've found out subsequent to the budget cussions. We raised it in estimates yesterday and asked speech and the bill being introduced, the government the Agriculture Minister to go have a discussion with actually loses money and loses more money in the rev- them, because the blowback from the Finance Minister's enue collection on HST than will be saved from the comments that somehow B.C.-produced food will now administrative savings. Help me with the logic there. go down as a result has reverberated through that sec- They're going to collect less, so how can you offer better tor. They're all going: "Hang on a second. That simply is public services? How can you do more with less? not the case." So it's not revenue-neutral. But the argument of rev- So prices are not going to come down. That $1.9 bil- enue neutrality is quite bizarre. It's revenue neutrality lion is going to have to be moved onto the backs of supposedly to the Crown, revenue neutrality to their consumers, and in particular, our concern is seniors on treasury, but it's a $1.9 billion shift — from the govern- fixed incomes above that cutoff who do not get the re- ment's own documentation — off of corporations and bates. It's another incremental cost to them, along with businesses and on to consumers. all of the other costs that this government has put on Yet, speaker after speaker on the other side and the them as well. Finance Minister, both publicly and in this House, all The next one is job creation. Job creation is the big claim that somehow the consumers in British Columbia, mantra of this government when it comes to tax policy. the citizens of British Columbia, are not going to be Everything's about job creation. Again, I challenge the impacted by that. It's all going to be happy and good. government to do one simple thing. Take one tax policy, They're not going to actually feel the impact of that $1.9 the 50 percent reduction in the industrial tax rate for the billion shift off of corporations and businesses and onto property taxes in our communities. their backs. How is that so? I asked the government to table in this House the re- I would like one of the members over there to stand port that shows how many jobs that 50 percent reduction up and actually explain that. Are there, then…? They talk in industrial tax rate created in the province of British about people who earn under $20,000 or families under Columbia. How many jobs? Where were those jobs cre- $25,000, who get a small return on the rebate. Because ated? What kinds of jobs were they? Table the report. I can tell you this: most of the seniors in my commun- It's one thing for these economists…. By the way, I ity make more than that, but they are on fixed incomes. think economists are people that need to start rethink- As a consequence, because they have no more earning ing their models and start rethinking the way that they power and their income is fixed, they will not get the re- understand the world. bates. They will have to absorb all of the tax implication We're getting all of this noise about B.C. in recovery, — every penny of it. Canada in recovery, etc., yet we know that we are shift- [1040] ing people away from high-paying jobs to low-paying I'll talk more about disposable income in a second and jobs, to service jobs, to self-employment — unbenefited, more about what the implications of that are. Something unpensioned jobs. We know that the household debt in the government isn't explaining is where that $1.9 bil- British Columbia and Canada is on the rise, and we know Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4177

that job creation has not kicked in, in a way that will give Well, let me set the record straight. The federal gov- people the kind of living income that they need. ernment does not impose HST on any province. There All of these economists that talk about recovery based is no imposition of HST. This piece of legislation, Bill on a couple of numbers on a piece of paper need to get 9, that we have in front of us enables and makes way out more, too, and go talk to the households that are for HST to be invited by this government to be imposed struggling to make ends meet on a day-to-day basis and on the people of British Columbia. It's more rational- are looking at, effectively, a jobless recovery saddled izations. It's more obfuscation. It's more disingenuous with debt and no earning power. How is that a recovery, communications. Let's not have the debate on those Madam Speaker? These same economists then take their terms. Let's have it on real terms. little models, put some numbers into the model and What really is happening here is a further erosion of spew out 120,000 jobs to be created from HST. Again, I the middle class. It's a further erosion of the disposable challenge that. income, and let me suggest to the members opposite We've got one of the lowest corporate tax rates. We that they really need to sit and think about how an econ- hear that from the government on the other side. We omy works. I know it's a bit of a wake-up call for the have given a 50 percent reduction in property tax rates. Minister of Health, but the British Columbia economy Where are the jobs? is 80 percent based on consumer spending. Consumer Now we're going to give a $1.9 billion tax break to spending: 80 percent. these same companies that didn't create jobs, didn't in- So you take MSP away from disposable income. You vest. In fact, they've been blasted by their own peers take B.C. Hydro away…. for not investing in this province when they've been given the tax breaks. So they haven't invested to date, Interjection. they haven't created jobs to date, and we're going to give them another $1.9 billion in tax breaks. B. Simpson: Madam Speaker, I'd like to set the public Again, validate the claim. Validate the claim based on record straight. We actually voted for the tax cuts in the what's already been done and the claim on the go-for- Premier's stimulus bill. ward strategy. I'll close with those comments shortly. Then the final one is funding health care. Again, as Interjections. we heard today, it's now funding health care plus what- ever. MSP increases were supposed to fund health care, Deputy Speaker: Minister. etc. As was pointed out by the pundits, the government moved off the funding health care fairly quickly — al- B. Simpson: MSP increases erode disposable income. though they have the embarrassing clause in the bill that Hydro tax increases erode disposable income. Natural they are going to table the report — because nobody gas increases erode disposable income. Increased ferry buys it. costs erode disposable income. Increased costs for [1045] coffee and magazines and all that, by taxation, erode General revenue funds health care and education and disposable income. Increasing carbon tax year over year roads and everything else. I mean, an HST becomes erodes disposable income. Increased property taxes that part of general revenue. It's not targeted funding to are coming up, and particularly if this government gives fund health care. It's a nonsense argument. It's another way to the industrial tax rate, erode disposable income. rationalization. Increased fees for sports and camping, increased cuts So what I want to simply state is — all of those ration- to funding for the arts all erode disposable income, and alizations aside: let's go have the public debate. Put the that's what the HST does. It adds to the erosion of dispos- bill in abeyance; go have the public debate. If the gov- able income. And yet 80 percent of the British Columbia ernment's still enamoured with this tax and wants to go economy is dependent upon disposable income. down this path and adjust it in accordance with public As a consequence, that is what's going to hurt the input, then swallow the tough pill and show leadership, economy. The major players that get the benefit from but at least have engaged the public in the debate. this are export-oriented businesses that haven't created Now the argument that we've got and the final argu- jobs in this province — new jobs in this province — for ment from the government — and we just heard it from some time, and the projections forward are that they're the member who spoke before me — is that the HST is not going to do it any more. They've been given all the a federal creation, that HST somehow has nothing to do tax cuts that they can handle, and they still haven't in- with this government. It's a federal issue. The Finance vested. They still haven't created jobs. In fact, they're still Minister even said on CBC radio, in response to ques- all downsizing. tions about the initiative and the vote against the HST: So the critical issue is disposable income, and on the "Oh, I'm not sure that it actually applies, because it's a other side of that is that we have seen significant down- federal initiative." ward pressure on wages and benefited jobs. So it's a 4178 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

double whammy. You're taking out of their pocket with all of the claims about job creation, about investment, all of these fee increases, all of these taxes that are com- about benefits on costs, about small- and medium-sized ing out of their pocket. You give some people, who make businesses in small communities — and actually makes less than 20 grand, a little bit of a bump back. You give a the government accountable to report out on all of those. little bit on raising the income tax level for the credit. Did prices drop? Did we get investment as a result of It's not enough, given the sum total of household im- HST? Did we get jobs as a result of HST? That's the way pact of all of the fee increases, all of the energy price government holds itself accountable to promises that it increases, all of the tax increases from a direct consumer makes and then imposes additional cost burdens on the tax that HST will impose. It's the wrong tax at the wrong people of British Columbia. time, and that's why we stand against it. It's the wrong tax at the wrong time. It's being forced [1050] down the throats of British Columbians who never got Now, I challenge the government to take a look at the opportunity to say yea or nay to this in the last elec- what they've got in the bill around the reporting, be- tion. It would have been a different election result if this cause I believe that democracy requires transparency, government had the courage and the leadership at that accountability and absolutely transparent accounting. time to say: "This is the path that we need to go on." So So the bill here that has this nonsensical report on let's add accountability to it. health funding relative to HST…. Let's get a jobs report. Failing that, if the government is not willing to do that, Let's get an investment report. Let's get a price reduction withdraw the bill, and let's take this out to the public report. Let's take every claim that this government has and have a fulsome public debate one-on-one with indi- made about the benefits of HST and put it in this bill as viduals who have territories that cross each other either an accountable measure to measure the net impact of through a legislative committee or in public forums of HST on the general consumer in the province of British some kind around the province. Columbia. Let's go talk to the public about that. They are intelli- Let's tie the government to be transparent and ac- gent, they are the citizens who have the right to vote for us, countable on what this bill will do. If the government and they are the ones who are going to bear the burden of is determined to drive this down people's throats, then this additional impact on their disposable income and on instead of this nonsensical…. Let's show how it funds their household debt that they've already accrued. health care. G. Gentner: I take leave to make an introduction to Interjection. the House.

Deputy Speaker: Minister. Leave granted.

B. Simpson: Let's show how it actually benefitsB ritish Introductions by Members Columbians. They won't do it…. G. Gentner: In the House today in the gallery are the Interjections. students and staff from Delview Secondary high school from North Delta: Mark Robinson, the vice-principal; Deputy Speaker: Member. Member, one moment, Yvette Livingston, career counsellor; and Harjit Uppal, please. who is a teacher. Delview is the home of the Raiders, and without question, they participate in the largest food drive Interjections. of all high schools participating in the province of B.C. I would also suggest to the House that this is the last Deputy Speaker: Members. Members, order. class that will have a yearbook that will not be hit by the Continue, Member. HST — just to put that on the record here. It's interest- ing enough. They saw the full banter and discourse here B. Simpson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. in the House, so would the House please make them So my point remains. The health care report that we're welcome. going to get — that HST somehow funds health care — is an exercise in cynical, petty politics. That's all it is. Debate Continued There's no need for it. It is nonsensical relative to how the treasury works and how general revenue works. D. McRae: Today I'm going to speak on HST. I had a Again, if we're going to get this rammed down our speech prepared, but then I had the opportunity to listen throats, if the people of B.C. are going to get this rammed to some of my colleagues from across the way speaking, down their throats, let's get a real report on HST that so I thought I would address. takes all of the claims the government has made — takes [1055] Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4179

I could not believe that the member for North Island Deputy Speaker: The member is allowed to make ref- is against the HST. She talks about the added costs of erence to members who have participated in the debate, things like coffee and haircuts. But you know what? I yes. know the North Island. I know the economy there isn't built on coffee and haircuts. The economy was built on Debate Continued industry, primary industry. It was built on the back of the forests, the logging and the fishing industry.B ut let's D. McRae: That's exactly what I did earlier. Thank see how this PST tax affects the North Island. you, Madam Speaker. We'll see how it goes. I'll use a little story here. We'll talk about something Anyway, as I was saying, when the member for North called the 2-by-4. Let's talk about logging. I know a little Island was speaking earlier, we were talking about the bit about logging. Lots of my friends have logged, and forest industry. We were talking about things like log- family members have logged in the past. How do you ging trucks, and we were talking about things like pickup log? The first thing you've got to do is you've got to build trucks and the costs associated with that. a road. What do you use to build a road? Well, you've got Well, you know what? When you actually get the to buy a bulldozer. workers to the cutblock where they're actually going Now, I don't buy a lot of bulldozers. But you know to cut the tree down, they need things to do that with. what? It costs about half a million dollars to buy a new One of the things they need to cut a tree down with is bulldozer. If we were to work out the PST on that half- a chainsaw. million-dollar bulldozer, it's only $35,000, but that Well, you know what? You can go down and buy money will just disappear. We won't worry about that an electric chainsaw for $100. But you know what? part of it. They don't use those chainsaws. They go out and ac- You know what? When you're building a road, you've tually buy a pretty expensive chainsaw, a chainsaw that got to get the workers actually in to build the road. How might cost anywhere from $700 to $800. But is there do they get there? Well, I think they take pickup trucks PST embedded in that? Yes, there is, and that could be, oftentimes. again, a $50 or $60 charge. That's a fair bit of cash.A nd A pickup truck, if you're buying one, is going to cost you know what? Chainsaws don't break if you don't you about $40,000. I'm not even going to talk about put- use them. ting the little crummy box on the back to actually drive So what happens is that if we don't have a logger the guys in on that part of it, but just a basic, old pickup working, we don't have to worry about this cost, but the truck that is going to get you to work is going to be a reality is we want loggers to work in this province. So $40,000 cost. Well, is there any PST embedded in that they're using the chainsaws, and the chains get worn cost? Well, let's do some math. down, and they actually break, and they have to take them to a mechanic to get them fixed.I t costs money for Deputy Speaker: Member, one moment. all those parts, and there's PST embedded in that. You know, let's not talk about the safety equipment they wear Point of Order and the chaps and all those kind of items. Then when they cut the log down, the log has to go J. Kwan: On a point of order. The member, actually somewhere. The log is too heavy to carry, and we're not moments ago, mentioned yourself, referred to your- in the days of using horses anymore to pull it out. We self, in his speech. It is completely inappropriate for the need a logging truck, and a logging truck is fairly expen- member to do that. It is out of order for the member sive. You can buy one for about $150,000. If you do, the to do that, to make reference to the Deputy Speaker's PST embedded in that cost, well, that's another $10,000. comments outside of this House. We on this side of the I'm not talking about the train to pull it out in there; I'm House never make comments about the Speaker or any- just talking about the rig that pulls. So you add another body in such position around partisan political issues. $10,000 cost there. I ask for your guidance on this issue, please, Madam You know what? I've been to Campbell River, and Speaker. I've looked around. And they have a lot of heavy-duty- equipment mechanics. Why? Because when you use a Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Members. I would ad- logging truck and you're driving on a logging truck road, vise the member to tailor his remarks in accordance you break the logging truck. with the rules of the House. So what do you do? You need to buy other parts to Thank you, Member. put on this truck. You need to do things like buying tires and axles, and you need to buy, basically, engine parts, D. McRae: Am I allowed to mention the member for and those parts actually have PST embedded in them North Island who was speaking earlier? Am I allowed to as well. make reference to the person? [1100] 4180 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

Let's assume the log now has magically got from the We charge it at the end, because that is probably the cutblock to a sawmill. Well, sawmills actually pay PST most efficient way of doing it. So you don't have this cas- as well. What do they pay them on? Well, they pay on cading tax upon tax. And you know what? It will work. power for their machinery. They don't use….I t's not the The reality is that the north Island will benefit, because old days where you have the water going over the water I know that the logging industry needs assistance. We mill anymore and you make your own power. You ac- can sit there and have platitudes, and we can fearmonger, tually have to pay for your power. It comes in. When but the reality is: what do we do to put loggers to work? you're doing things like that…. This is an exact thing we need to do as a government to You know, mills also have things — we call them fur- put the logging industry back to work. niture — where people have to sit. You've got these big It's basically a $140 million help up for the logging boards with the computers that the employees work at. industry. That is what we need to do. If the opposition The chair has a PST-embedded cost, and the oil and the had better ideas, I'm sure I would like to hear them. But lubricants, and the PST dollars just keep adding up over you know what? In all my time sitting here, all they do is and over again. complain and use anecdotal evidence. But then the sawmill needs to do something with that If they had some better solid ideas — policy, per- log. We've got to sell it. So let's pretend now it somehow haps, something we could actually analyze — we gets again…. Somehow they buy a truck — probably a might be able to have another discussion. What we big rig being pulled from a sawmill to, maybe, a com- do is just, basically, get some rhetoric but no solutions. pany. It could be Slegg Lumber or a Home Hardware But I digress, because I actually had my speech that I or whatever mom-and-pop store you wish to talk about. wanted to talk on, but I was just taken aback by the Somehow it gets there. There is PST embedded in that north Island. transportation cost. You know, lots of us run for various reasons, and one Then when they get it there, they're paying TPS on of the reasons I ran is for something that's very import- things like heat for the facility, to keep the lights on. ant in the Comox Valley that really, directly, has nothing You know, basically, I haven't been to a building to do with the HST. I ran because we need hospitals — supply store that doesn't have things called forklifts. not just in my riding but across British Columbia. Forklifts, again, are fairly pricey. You could spend be- What happens is we have the Campbell River Hospital, tween $20,000 and $50,000 for a forklift, and there's PST which was built in the 1950s, and it needs to be replaced. embedded in that cost. We also have the Comox Valley hospital, St. Joe's. I was You know what? How many times do you drive around born there, my daughter was born there, and my wife a community and you actually see a building company was born there. It's been around for 80 years. Both with a vehicle on the road? Oh, they have some of those hospitals are staffed by fantastic health care workers, as well — everything from a small, little vehicle to a pickup truck to maybe a flat deck to deliver items. You whether they be doctors, nurses, care aides — every- know what? They have their big name on all these items, thing all the way through the system. The hospitals are and there's PST embedded in that. amazing. The shelving that comes in a store has PST there as The downside is the hospitals are aged. They're aged well, but I've never received a brochure in the mail that and do not meet the needs of a modern health care actually says: "Company X is selling this 2-by-4 for this system. So we're talking about building a new hospi- price." But there's PST embedded in that cost when we tal. Let's see, the Comox-Strathcona hospital board has have some advertising. been working diligently, working with VIHA. We're not Most of these stores actually have their employees close yet, but in terms of working hard and getting the wear some form of uniform. Sure, they may have jeans groundwork done, we've done a fantastic job. on and such, but there's usually a proper shirt to identify You know what? We understand that the hospitals — that you work in the store so that customers can come one for Campbell River, one for Comox — could cost and figure out exactly who to ask questions of. There's upwards of $500 million to $650 million. Now, that is PST embedded in that. really expensive, obviously. In this little 2-by-4 story, it's embedded over and over [1105] and over again. Then when you actually get to the end There are two ways we can pay. One is right on the and you've got to buy the stuff at the store, you pay PST backs of the residents of British Columbia. Let's just again and GST again. Well, the whole idea is, instead of raise taxes. Let's raise taxes, and we'll get more money, having this magically embedded PST, which never gets and we can afford to pay for it. That's one way to do it. passed on to the consumer — it never does — what hap- Or there's another way. You can actually grow the econ- pens now is that we don't take it time and time and time omy of British Columbia. Do you know what? If you again. What we do is actually just charge it once — once grow the economy of British Columbia, you don't need at the very end. to tax residents excessively. Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4181

Interjections. One of the things we can definitely talk about, and I think we'd all agree, is that B.C. residents do not like D. McRae: I must be hitting a turn; I must be getting taxation, and I don't like it either. TheB .C. Liberal Party something here, gentlemen, on this side, and ladies, be- has a proven record of lowering taxation in all sectors of cause you know what? They're starting to chirp at me this province, but don't take my word for it. Let's look over and over again. But at the end of the day, I think I at some facts. Facts are always important here. Let's go know how to grow the hospital. look at some facts. Let's pretend I was making $40,000 in 2001. If I was Interjections. back in 2001, I'd be paying just over $3,000 in provin- cial taxes. Now, assuming that in 2010, I made that exact Deputy Speaker: Members. Members, would you same wage, I would only be paying $1,450. This means just let the member continue with his remarks, so we that in the last nine years, this government has put $200 can all hear them. a month in my pocket every month and every month Member, continue. into the future. The most amazing thing is that we lower taxation D. McRae: So what could we do? We could follow the and we grow the economy at the same time. How opposition's strategy and raise taxes. They could raise is this possible? Well, don't ask the NDP. They were taxes on individual income tax, small business tax. They against these tax cuts, because their math just doesn't even could talk about the death tax. They could talk compute. about that. This is one way of putting dollars into the Let's not limit ourselves to those making $40,000. government revenue stream, but it comes at a price. Let's just pick another number. Let's say $70,000 in these same time periods. You'd only have had a 46 percent tax Interjections. decrease in nine years, but let's not just worry about talk- ing about those in the upper level of wages. Let's visit the Deputy Speaker: Members. Members. lower-income workers as well.

D. McRae: It drives workers, it drives companies, and [L. Reid in the chair.] you know what? If you were earning $20,000 in 2001, you know what? Interjections. We couldn't get to 100 percent, opposition. I'm sorry. We only got a 91 percent tax cut over that period of time. Deputy Speaker: Order, Members. Instead of paying over a thousand dollars in taxes for Member, could you take your seat for a moment. that $20,000-a-year wage earner, you're only paying $91 Thank you. today. Maybe this tax cut wasn't enough, but give us Continue, Member. time. We can do better in this province. One of the other sorts of givens is that if you want D. McRae: It drives investment from the province. people to pay income tax, you need something. What is We know it does this, because I'm a student of history. I one of those things you need? You need a job. Jobs are know what happens when you raise taxes and you make important. You have to create a climate where business an unfriendly business climate. They go away. How do comes and invests these dollars. We've done this in the I know that? Well, I don't want to bring up the 1990s, past; we're committed to doing it in the future. because I get upset sometimes when we do that. In [1110] the 1990s we saw what happens when you don't have a The heart and soul of B.C. is centred around small competitive environment and you keep and attract busi- business. From 2001 through 2008 the B.C. Liberal gov- nesses. What does everybody do? They leave. And we ernment reduced the small business tax rate from 4.5 don't want to see that happen again. percent to 2.5 percent. But it's not enough. We can do What do we do? How do we attract companies? We better. That's why we're committed to reducing the small attract companies who bring employees, we bring in- business tax rate to zero in 2012. vestment, we grow provincial revenues, and we can You know what? This is a great idea. How many make sure people have a greater quality of life in the people know someone in this province who has a small, province. little business in a small, little town, probably provid- I want this hospital built in Comox Valley, I want it ing an income for themselves, maybe having as many as built in Campbell River for the north Island, but I do four or five employees? No one is getting rich, but they not want to build it on the backs of taxpayers of this are actually creating a lot of economic realities around province. I want to build it and pay for it by growing the this province, growing the business and making a good economy of British Columbia into the future. quality of life. 4182 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

We're reducing small business taxes because it's the we did it not on the backs of the corporations and the right thing to do, and it's too bad that the opposition people of this province. So whose math are you going voted against it. to trust — a proven track record from a government While small businesses are essential to the economic that has put more money into everyone's pocket or take well-being of this province, corporations also play a ma- math lessons from the opposition that seem to actually jor role. These are the companies that employ the largest make up their facts as they go? number of people, make the biggest investments and What saddens me the most, though, since I've been pay the largest tax bills. If we want the economy of B.C. given the privilege of sitting in this House, is that I to grow and be vibrant, we need to attract this corporate thought — and you know what? I'm only a high school investment to this province. teacher by trade who teaches government — the oppos- Every government entity across North America is ition's job was to provide alternative policy choices to thinking the exact same thing we are: how can we get government, to provide an alternate point of view. business to come to this province? Because when busi- I've seen little in the way of policy, but I've seen a lot ness comes, we know they bring dollars, and more in the way of fearmongering and a party that is grasp- importantly, they bring jobs, and jobs help pay taxes and ing for political leverage but actually hasn't come up grow the economy of this province. with any real solution about what we need to do in In 2001 the corporate tax rate was 16.5 percent. By this province to help the province and the economy of 2008 we got it down to 11 percent, and the downward British Columbia increase and get better for the benefit trend continues. Oh, but the NDP, they voted against of everybody in this province. that tax cut too. We grew the economy at this time, so Now, when Ontario made the move in the late win- we were on to something. But this NDP math, I'm just ter, early spring of 2009 and moved towards the HST, not sure where they're coming from. the playing field of how provinces — not this prov- Let's recap the opposition's taxation record. In late ince, all provinces — do business changed completely. 1990s for B.C. corporations and small businesses, in- The easy thing is to do nothing. One of the reasons I come taxes were amongst the highest, not just in this ran for this party is that it refuses to sit back and do country but in North America, and jobs and businesses nothing. were leaving the province en masse. We saw it. The idea of consulting, consulting, committee work, I saw nurses saying: "You know what? I can easily committee work, let's form a task force over here.... In jump ship and go to Alberta, go to Texas, go left and the end we won't make any decision, but in the end we right." Businesses were leaving en masse to go to places need to have decisions about what's going to happen. where they could have corporate headquarters in a bet- [1115] ter taxation model. What was the blame? The blame was If this party was purely concerned about doing what's the high level of taxation. popular, we would not have gone down the HST path. We also had the dubious distinction of becoming a Right now B.C. needs political leadership, and the op- have-not province. We had to suffer the indignity of position cannot provide it. having to receive federal transfer payments when we Let's look at what Ontario did. Ontario — it's nothing should have been enjoying the economic boom the rest special, you know. It's this little province to the east of of North America was enjoying. But we were suffering. us. You might have heard of it. It's the biggest economy TheB .C. Liberals were elected in 2001 and — you know in Canada. It has the largest population. It has the most what? — the B.C. economy did a U-turn. We lowered manufacturing, and it also has the best access to eastern the personal income taxes. Opposition voted against it. United States American markets. So they can't have any B.C. Liberals lowered corporate taxes. Opposition voted impact on our economy whatsoever. against it. B.C. Liberals lowered small business taxes. Now, I realize that Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Opposition voted against this. We even came up with New Brunswick moved towards the HST earlier — and the carbon tax, and you voted against that as well. no disrespect to those provinces; they are absolutely This B.C. Liberal economic craziness must have left amazing — but they are far, far away from us, and their the province's revenues in a horrible state. But we better economies were not on a level to be competitive and look at facts to make sure we know what we're talking have a direct negative impact on this province. They about. went with the HST model because they knew it would So I went back in history, and I found out that before help build their economies, and they're staying with it. we came into government, the last budget tabled by the We did nothing that we didn't need to do. then government, the opposition of the day, the Finance Why did Ontario go this way? This has some evidence Minister tabled a budget with $24.3 billion and a $1.35 here. Well, if you look at some of the speakers in Ontario billion deficit. about why they've gone down the HST model, you can Now, with all these tax cuts, what happened to our actually understand why B.C. needed to be reactive. budget? Oh, we grew our spending to $40 billion, and One of the comments from Ontario, from their Finance Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4183

Minister, is this — and you know what, it's about Ontario, "Now of course, that leads to" — and this is him saying — "I but it will ring true for British Columbia as well. think, an incorrect interpretation of people that now the taxes faced by consumers will go up, but we have seen, when the GST "The world has changed. We've witnessed the biggest global eco- was introduced at the federal level…" nomic downturn in 80 years, and if we want Ontario to remain strong, we must change too. And again, this isn't government speaking. This is Don "We need to be more competitive. We need to attract more Drummond, chief economist of the TD Bank. He says: investment and jobs. We need to protect important services like "…and then in Quebec and with three of the Atlantic provinces, health care and education that we've worked so hard to build. businesses do, and fairly quickly" — he adds — "pass through the "…economists and businesses agree that a single value-added tax savings as the tax is taken off their inputs. So it really doesn't tax, like the HST, is the most important thing we can do to increase the overall tax; it just makes it a more efficient and com- strengthen Ontario's economy. petitive economy." "We have a choice: we can refuse to fix what's broken, resign But maybe Don Drummond doesn't know what he's ourselves to the idea that Ontario will be less competitive, and talking about. watch our province move backward. Or we" — being Ontario — "can move forward, embrace change and hold firm to the con- Let's talk to a construction company — a guy named viction that Ontario can emerge through this stronger than ever Martin Grant. I don't know him, but he heads a very before." large construction industry company in Ontario. He This is why they're doing it, and if we don't listen to says: "The proposed HST is much flatter and removes what they're doing and react accordingly, it will be at a lot of the bias and a lot of the uncertainty that comes our peril. But let's just not listen to the government of with the current tax scheme. It's cheaper for us overall Ontario. Maybe their statement is self-serving. and encourages investment in construction equipment." Let's listen to the people's responses to their decision How about a law firm? Jack Millar, senior partner at to move towards the HST. You might have heard of a Millar-Kreklewetz: "Not only do we compete against law man named Roger Martin who is dean of the Rotman firms in Ontario, but also we compete with law firms School of Management. Now, you might not be fam- from other Canadian provinces that do not have the iliar with the Rotman School of Management. If you RST cost." So we're not talking just people who are ac- aren't, that's okay. I'll tell you what they are. It's one of tually building things. We're talking here, again, in the the most prestigious MBA programs in Canada, and by information age about a company that uses basically some surveys it's one of the top ten business schools in high-end skilled labour. the world. [1120] Roger Martin, the dean, who is very well respected He says: "By removing the embedded RST, it's going throughout business, supports the HST in Ontario be- to mean we can be more price-competitive, hopefully, at- cause he knows that it will enable Ontario to become tracting and retaining more of that business in Ontario." one of the most competitive tax jurisdictions in the When they say attracting business, that means taking it world. He knows the HST attracts jobs and investments, away from places like British Columbia. money that will not be coming to B.C. or, even worse, if How about Bernard Courtois, president and CEO of they go to the HST model and we don't, it will leave our the Information Technology Association of Canada? province and go and benefit their residents and hurt our His statement: residents. "The harmonization of sales tax is very important, because it is He's just one person, an academic. How about a chief key to making the investment environment in Ontario competi- economist of the TD Bank, Don Drummond. He says: tive with all the jurisdictions for us. So for years we've been look- ing at the key elements that really enhance Ontario's competitive- "The basic change from the existing retail sales tax to ness and our industry as a particular perspective on that, and the a harmonized single tax with the federal government HST turns out to be the last remaining, the biggest component. is that all of the tax will be put on the final point of "Our government in two levels has been working on corpor- consumption." ate tax rates on capital and…making our tax rates on investment more competitive. TheH ST was the last big remaining block, and We talked about that earlier with that 2-by-4 story. it's a barrier to people investing in the kinds of things that will You probably got it. "The unfortunate thing" — this is make them more competitive, attract more investment and grow him speaking — "and why I think people do not under- faster. stand the existing tax's name is called the retail sales "So by having a harmonized sales tax, they can save lots of money on the administration of multiple sales taxes. They have the kind tax, but it's not really...." Almost half the revenue com- of sales tax that makes the whole investment scenario much more ing in from the retail sales tax in Ontario comes from competitive so they can devote their money to investing in things business inputs. "In particular, it comes from things like that will make them grow." machinery equipment, and of course, that discourages But this is just basically the president of the Information machinery equipment; that makes Ontario's economy Technology Association of Canada. Maybe he's not too less competitive." sure. So under a new sales tax, a single tax, where a tax Are there other examples? There are lots.I could have applies at each stage of production, you keep get- picked many, industry after industry. The one theme that ting input tax credits until you get to the final point of is recurring over and over again is that Ontario's actions consumption. have made them more competitive on the national and 4184 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

international scale, and if we don't listen to what they're Quebec. The price of gas is going up by one cent a litre. doing, it will be at the peril of our residents. They're raising tuition fees. TheF inance Minister, in March, was tabling our 2010 In British Columbia we are going to be poised to be so budget. In my grand scheme of things, my perfect world, competitive as the world emerges out of this economic I wish it was a better time for everybody. In British recession. We are in a better place because of the work Columbia sometimes we lose track of how rough it is in that was done in the last eight years, the work we are do- other parts of the world. My father just came back from ing today to make sure that this province and the people Mexico. Tourism there is down 70 percent. The Mexican of this province, the businesses of this province are go- economy is suffering greatly. ing to be vibrant for generations to come. Another friend of mine just came back from Palm [1125] Springs, and she says she couldn't believe it. When you The worst thing we could do in this Legislature is do go down there — the housing crisis, the debt, unemploy- nothing. It's a disservice to our residents, our businesses ment — and then you come back to British Columbia, and our children. And so when I sit here and speak…. you feel like a cloud has been lifted. It is really good You know what? I like being popular, but at the expense here. of being popular, I will do the right thing. I will grow the But let's look across the other jurisdictions. Let's take economy of this province. I will make sure that we are a look at Alberta. In Alberta, with their budget, they're in a better place. talking about slashing spending across 15 ministries If the opposition has better ideas, I would love to see and cutting jobs, not to mention that they're planning some policy. When you start talking about things like on running a deficit of $4.7 billion. The government of anecdotal evidence and little old ladies in Kelowna and Alberta is hoping to return to a balanced budget by 2012, a bike store owner in Nelson, this isn't stuff that's going and I hope they make it. However, it all depends on the to actually convince anybody that you're doing the right price of oil rising and the province needing to drain its thing. It just adds to the fearmongering. $15 billion sustainability fund down from $15 billion to At the end of the day, I challenge the opposition to $2.8 billion. They saved it for a rainy day, and goodness come up with some ideas that you think we could debate knows, it's rough right now, and they're needing it. in this chamber and make B.C. better. If you just want I'm sure Alberta feels it's in a better place than Ontario. to talk and throw little stories around, that's not going to Ontario is forecasting a deficit this year of $24.7 billion put food on anybody's plate. and sees a best-case scenario of returning to a balanced Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I've enjoyed my- budget by 2015, but it may be as long as 2017. self today. Obviously, the opposition was listening to me. I Newfoundland — also facing a substantial deficit this like getting heckled, and I feel like my colleague who's not year. Like many provinces, they're concerned about be- here, from Coquitlam–Burke Mountain, the hornets' nest. ing competitive, and they're in the midst of lowering At the same time, I wish the speakers coming up the best taxes in an attempt to lure new professionals and stay of luck. I'm interested to hear what they have to say. competitive with the other Atlantic provinces and the rest of Canada. This is a recurring theme. Every prov- H. Lali: It's totally unbelievable. You know, when they incial government in the country understands the made the movie Clueless, they must have had the mem- necessity to be competitive. ber for Comox Valley in mind because this member, Nova Scotia as well. They're in a particularly tough when it comes to the HST and just politics and actually situation. Not only did they table a budget with a pro- looking after the interests of British Columbia, is abso- jected deficit of $488 million for the year; they're also in lutely clueless. I could not believe that he would stand possession of a study that states that unless the province here in this House, actually…. increases provincial revenues and decreases spending, they could face an annual budget deficit of $1.3 billion Deputy Speaker: Member, take your seat, please. It is by 2012-2013. They don't see a sign in the near future of possible to oppose, hon. Member, without resorting to when they're going to see revenues and expenses come personal attack. I would ask you to withdraw. together. What about Quebec? Well, Quebec has a deficit of H. Lali: Withdrawn, hon. Speaker. $4.5 billion this year, to help pay and meet their needs. Anyway, just to continue, this member across the way, Not only do they have the highest debt-to-GDP ratio in at least half a dozen instances, argued for the rationale in the country at 53 percent, to meet their needs they of why the HST should not be brought in. This member have to raise fees lots of different ways. They're forced to did that. You know what? Does he even realize that he's raise health care fees by 800 percent over the next two done that? I don't think so. I don't think that this mem- years. They're forced to raise their PST by 2 percent by ber even realizes it. 2012. By 2012, between the GST and their version of the To top it all off, when he finished with his closing re- PST, you'll be paying 15 percent tax in the province of marks, it was unbelievable that he would actually stand Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4185

there and denigrate, in his own words, little old ladies jumps out from those bushes and attacks them. That's and women pushing strollers. How condescending is how the people of British Columbia feel right now. that — condescending to British Columbians? Pearl Harbor is another one they use. They feel like Members on this side of the House, on the New they've been in Pearl Harbor. Everybody remembers Democrat side, have been going out there and listening December 7, 1941, when the Imperial Japanese Navy at- to constituents. It's those — and I use his words — little tacked the United States. That's how they feel. They feel old ladies and people with strollers and the poor and all like they've been stabbed in the back, because they were of the folks that are seniors and women and First Nations told one thing during the election and the Liberals did who are telling us their stories and telling us to come out exactly the opposite right after the election. here and talk about their stories in this Legislature. To sum it all up, they feel betrayed. They've been That member across the way is condescending to betrayed. The trust that they put into this Liberal gov- British Columbians. Unreal that a duly elected member ernment at election time last May, that trust has been of this House in this day and age would stand up here broken, because this Liberal Party has betrayed them in this House and show the kind of condescension that when it comes to the HST. All sorts of things were said that member for Comox Valley has shown in this House. by the Premier and the Minister of Finance at the time, Unbelievable. Unbelievable that this could happen in when the questions were asked. this day and age. The Liberals said something else during the election. You know, I can stand up here and be emotional They basically went out to the public and said: "Trust us. about it, because when I go out there and talk to British We're not going to bring in the HST. All you have to do is Columbians and to the people in Fraser-Nicola and the trust us." When asked point-blank, the Premier and the folks in my hometown of Merritt, it evokes emotions — Minister of Finance both denied that they were going this HST that the Liberals are trying to ram down their to bring in the HST. That's what they did, because they throats. It evokes all sorts of emotions from people. wanted the people of British Columbia to trust them. One would have thought that when the Liberals' cor- They wanted them to put their trust in them. They even ruption scandal came out, a.k.a. the B.C. Rail scandal.... put it into writing to the B.C. restaurateurs association. It evoked a whole lot of anger and some real negative "It's not even on our radar," is what they said. "It's not emotions — the only kind of emotions that this Liberal even on our radar." government could actually bring out. One would have If I went out, or any member on this side of the House, thought that that was the limit. But with this introduc- if we went out during the election and said what they tion of the HST bill…. did and then we did something exactly the opposite after an election when it came to the HST, they'd be calling us Deputy Speaker: Member, you are debating Bill 9. liars, hon. Speaker, the members on the opposite side. That's what they would be calling us. Unbelievable. H. Lali: With this HST bill that is here before us, Bill The problem with the "Trust us" philosophy of the 9…. Well, actually, I'll talk about what it's really called. Premier, the Minister of Finance and every one of these It's not even called an HST bill. The kind of anger that Liberal candidates in the election is that no one believes it evokes from people in my riding and across British them. I say this to the members opposite: no one be- Columbia, everywhere I go, far surpasses the kind of lieves you with all your rationalizations about bringing anger that people get when they think of the Liberals' in the HST, when you said you weren't going to do it corruption scandal with B.C. Rail — far outweighs it. during the election, and I say these remarks through the Hon. Speaker, you know the kind of emotions it Chair, hon. Speaker. evokes. I know that some of the members on this side Basically, why would this be any different for the of the House have talked about it, and I'm going to add Liberals? They've always said one thing during an elec- a few that I hear from people. Double-crossed is one tion and done completely the opposite after an election. of them. The people of British Columbia feel that this They were caught in 1996, during that election, when Liberal government double-crossed them. That's how they said they weren't going to privatize B.C. Rail, and they feel. You hear the word "blindsided." That's another then repeated that in 2001. It's a history of broken prom- word that people say. ises. Why should the HST be different for the Liberals? [1130] It's the way they operate. We know what happened with They also talk about being deceived by the Liberal B.C. Rail. It was sold, and now that is mired before the government. They talk about being misled by the B.C. courts with the label "corruption scandal" attached to it. Liberal Party. They talk about being hoodwinked as well. They promised during the 2001 election that they You see that word being used in western movies. That's were going to go out, and they were going to spend how they feel. They feel like they've been bushwhacked. all this money. They were going to balance the budget. That's when somebody is going on their merry little They were going to give all these huge tax breaks to their stroll across the bushes, and all of a sudden, somebody friends who financed their election campaigns, but they 4186 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

also promised: "Oh no, we're not going to do it by put- British Columbia who didn't know, or didn't admit to it, ting in any kind of cuts to health care, to education or to were these Liberals occupying the benches on the gov- social services." Well, we know what happened with that ernment side. Sure enough, after the election, the Premier promise. They ripped it up. They broke it. Why would went up and smudged that budget and presented a new the HST be any different? one and said: "Oh my gosh, the deficit now is" — what? We saw the budget that came down — what was it, — "$3.6 billion, but hey, hold on for a minute. We found a just before the election? Yes, just before the election. It way to actually lower that so it's below that magic marker was around this time last year, before we broke for the of $3 billion. We're going to bring in the HST." election itself. You will recall, hon. Speaker, that we both That's what the Premier said: "We're going to bring in got elected in 1991. Both of us were elected at the same the HST because we're going to get all this money from time. In this House, right where…. Well, I might have the federal government in transfer payments — $1.6 been sitting about over here at that time. But on this billion. side of the House, I was standing right about where I And you know what the Finance Minister and the am right now, and I stood up here when the Premier, Premier said? "You know what we're going to do? We're through the Finance Minister and this Liberal govern- going to do a little sleight of hand here. We're going to ment, tabled that budget. take these bowls that are upside down with the shells that Every single member on this side of the House and are underneath. We're going to switch it around, play a the folks that sit up there, that write about what's going little shell game and fool the heck out of the people of on in this House, the folks up in the press gallery — do British Columbia. We're going to take $800 million of you know what they said? I'm going to tie this into why that money from the federal government because we're it's no different from the HST. going to do the HST. We're going to bring it into our [1135] budget. Ah, presto! It's only $2.7 billion." When that budget came down, no one believed the Amazing — the kind of shell game that these Liberals Liberals. We didn't believe the Liberals. Folks that sit have been playing. It's absolutely amazing, but I stood up there and write about it didn't believe the Liberals. here and I warned the people of British Columbia, and Folks that are watching through that television camera so did my colleagues — that the Premier was going to out there — they didn't believe the Liberals. No one in bring in a smudge-it budget. So why would it be any- British Columbia believed the Liberals that the defi- thing different for the HST? Why would it be different? cit was only going to be $495 million. No one believed Nobody in British Columbia believed the Liberals then. them. No one believed the Liberals. No one believes the Liberals now when they stand up I stood right here and I said that the Premier, before here and try to rationalize their broken promises. the election, goes up to the chalkboard and takes the Let's have a quick look at what is being taxed. Well, chalk and he writes down his budget. He writes down his one thing is clear, before I go into the specifics of what election promises in the budget — the election that was is being taxed. This Liberal government, through the coming up. He wrote it all down on the chalkboard, but introduction of the HST, the harmonized sales tax, are I warned right here, as I was standing right here in this going to tax you from birth until death. That's for sure. House at that time, that after the election the Premier was They're going to tax you from birth until death. going to go up to that chalkboard. He was going to take You know, you want to go out there and get a birth his sleeve and hold it like I am holding it, and he was going certificate after you're born? Your parents will pay HST to go up to the board and he was going to smudge it. on it. When you die — and we're all going to go from He was going to smudge that blackboard. I called it a this place one day — and there's a funeral service, you smudge-it budget, and that's exactly what the Premier know what these Liberals are going to do? and the Liberal cabinet over there did. They went out be- You know, it's sort of like that Ghost Whisperer, where fore the election, presented a smudge-it budget so they they see the light and they cross off into the other world. could come back into this House and turn around and Before you cross over to the other world, there's the say: "Oh my god. Hallelujah, hon. Members of the House. Premier and the Finance Minister. They're going to be We didn't know the revenues were going to tank. We standing at the gates saying: "Nuh-uh, nuh-uh. Before didn't know there was going to be an economic or a fi- you cross over to the other world, when you see that nice, nancial tsunami that was going to hit British Columbia." shining light, pay up your HST before you go from this Those were the words in the throne speech that the world." Premier wrote for the hon. Lieutenant-Governor to read, [1140] sitting right where you are, and in those words it said: That's what they're going to do. They're going to tax "We didn't know there was going to be a financial, eco- you from birth until death. They're going to tax you nomic tsunami." when you're born; they're going to tax you when you die, When everybody else in this universe knew that there hon. Speaker. That's what this Liberal government is go- was going to be a financial tsunami, the only people in ing to do. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4187

And you know, if you happen to get married some- to tax you. They're going to tax you to collect taxes from where in between birth and death…? Ha, ha, ha. Guess you — unreal. Just unbelievable what the Liberals are what. The Minister of Finance is going to be standing going to do. there right beside you just before you're going to say Veterinary care is going to be taxed and other pro- your "I dos." "Yes, I love you till death do us part. Yes, I fessional services like architects, real estate agents and do, I do." appraisers are all going to be taxed. Classes for yoga, Before you say all that good stuff, you know what dance, cooking, martial arts and all those good, healthy the Minister of Finance is going to be sitting there do- things…. They're going to tax you to be healthy. ing? He's going to be up there, going: "Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. On the one side, the Minister of Healthy Living and Not so fast with the 'I dos.'" Both the bride and groom Sport stands up in the House day after day and goes out are going to sit there, and they're kind of going to go: there and says: "Go out there and exercise and do all "What are you talking about? You weren't even invited as these good things. Go out and get membership fees, be- a guest to my wedding. What are you doing, Minister of cause we want you to be healthy in order to lower the Finance? What are you doing, uninvited, standing here, health care costs." Well, you know what they're going to when we're about to say our 'I dos?'" do? They're going to tax you to do that. They're going to He's going to sit there and kind of go: "You've got to tax you to do that — unreal. pay that harmonized sales tax before you're legally mar- Facilities and ice rink rentals are going to be hit hard. ried, otherwise you ain't getting married." That's what B.C. minor hockey — they're going to be hit hard with they're going to do. that. They're going to tax you when you're born, they're go- Massage therapy, acupuncture and alternative ing to tax you when you get married, they're going to tax medicine are going to be taxed. Haircuts and other pro- you when you die, and they're going to tax everything fessional personal care services like beauty salons and in between — birth until death do you part. That's what spas are going to be taxed by the Liberals. this Liberal government is going to do — unreal what Your vitamins, dietary supplements and other non- they're going to do. prescription medicinal products are going to be taxed Here, I'm going to read out some of the stuff.R estaurant by this Liberal government. How does that play into meals and catered foods are going to be taxed. Many healthy living when they're going to tax you? groceries such as snack foods and other prepared foods Magazines, periodicals, newspapers, newsletters, stu- like salads, sandwiches, heated food or beverages — all dent yearbooks are all going to be taxed, and they want these good things, the healthy stuff…. How is that go- people to be more educated in this province? You want ing to healthy living and sport? They're going to tax you. to read? You want to learn something? Ah, ah, ah, ah. Muffin and coffee — they're going to tax you. Before you go out and buy a book and you want to learn School supplies. "We're the best educated jurisdiction something, pay up that HST to the Premier and the in the universe." Isn't that what the Liberals out there Minister of Finance. He's going to tax you. are saying? Well, guess what. They're going to tax your Bicycles, bike repairs and parts, wedding planners and school supplies. They're going to tax all of that. You're caterers, funerals, repairs to home appliances — they're going to go to school, and they're going to tax you for going to be taxed. Energy-efficient home appliances are that. going to be taxed. How does that reduce greenhouse Services such as taxi fares are going to be taxed. You gases if energy efficiency is going to be taxed? tax taxi fares, and somebody says: "I don't want to pay [1145] that tax. I'm going to drive my own car." Yeah, but it Laundry and dry cleaning, carpet and upholstery doesn't help the greenhouse gases. But the other thing cleaning are going to be taxed — car washes, basic resi- also is folks that are drinking and driving. You know, dential telephone service, your cable TV service, Terasen folks that drink and drive instead of paying the extra Gas, residential smoke and fire alarms, work-related HST on the taxi fares. How does that prevent drinking safety equipment. and driving in this province? Yeah. We know they gutted the workplace safety legis- Recreational services like live theatre, movie tickets, lation a few years back, so what matters to the Liberal amusement parks, campground fees, museum admis- Party to go out there and tax them too? sions and even whale-watching tours — they're going to Energy-saving building materials and devices for tax you 12 percent on that. vehicles, automobile towing and emergency roadside Accounting services like tax preparation, mutual fund services are all going to be taxed by the B.C. Liberals. management fees…. Not only are they going to tax you You know, there are a whole lot of people that are up from birth until death, but when you go to get your taxes in arms against the Liberals. I think I talked about gym done, they're going to tax you on top of that. How unreal membership fees. Oh, yeah. They're also going to tax is that? A tax on tax. What do they call it? They call it a beer. The HST is a beer tax. Used car tax — I'll have a supertax. When you go to pay your taxes, they're going little more to say about that. 4188 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

And First Nations. Let's not forget the First Nations course, the exception of the previous two Liberal Forests who enjoy a tax-exempt status. It's part of the deal that Ministers who came immediately before him. was imposed upon them under the Indian Act and that whole residential school system way back, decades and [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] decades back. A century or more back, they enjoyed that status. But guess what? First Nations will be paying 12 I am standing up here to proudly vote against the HST percent. bill. I want to put a challenge to the Minister of Forests, The poorest lot in our society, the people who have who comes from a forest-dependent community like the least, the least chance to actually access educational myself, to stand up for his constituents in Prince George and economic opportunities, and guess what this Liberal and his constituency and vote with the 87 percent who government is going to do. They're going to come up to are against the HST. Show something on behalf of those First Nations, the poorest people in British Columbia, people rather than reading from a text that was written and they're going to say: "Pay up 12 percent on every- by the public affairs bureau. thing that you buy and purchase." Isn't that a shame? I can't believe how a minister could be so misinformed. What happened to the new era of reconciliation and all He said: "I went into Merritt," and he talked about Aspen of that other garbage that they put out? Nothing. They're Planers. I'd like to know: what does he really know about going to be taxed. That's really putting people from the Aspen Planers? First Nations communities into colleges and universities [1150] and actually also into economic opportunities. Unreal. That's my community. I've been living in that com- Unreal is what this Liberal government has done. munity for 45 years, and I know those boys that run the There are a whole lot of other groups that are against Aspen Planers sawmill — Paul and Surinder Ghog. We it. I talked about the restaurant tourist association ear- grew up together. We lived on the same street. Our par- lier, B.C. Restaurant and Foodservices Association. ents were friends. We watched his father build it from There's also the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices the small, portable sawmill into the big industry that it Association. They're going to lose 31,000 jobs as a result is. I think there are about eight or nine operations that of that. they own. The homebuilders and real estate industry, Council The minister talks, tries to take credit for the good of Tourism Associations of B.C. are against it. The work that Aspen Planers is doing in Merritt, while he B.C. Association of School Business Officials, B.C. doesn't even know a thing about the Ghog brothers Care Providers Association, Federation of Community and the Ghog family. I've got to tell you. Tara Ghog, Social Services of B.C., Child and Family Counselling the father…. He's deceased now. He had a philosophy. Association — all of these people are against. The Unlike this Liberal government, he didn't carry debt. He Rental Owners and Managers Society of B.C. are against believed in paying as you go. it. The B.C. Housing and Provincial Rental Housing ThisL iberal government has been putting on massive Corporation, municipalities, environmentalists, First debt in this province since they got elected. As a result of Nations — I already talked about. You know, unreal. the pay-as-you-go philosophy, every one of their oper- The list just goes on and on of the people that are ations is paid for through their own hard earning and against it, but they don't want to listen to them. They the work that their employees put into it. They're proud don't. They don't have a problem with this. You know of the work they do. why? Because it's a $1.9 billion per year tax shift, in addi- Despite all of the negative policies of this government tion to the billions that they've already given away to — the do-nothing policies and the softwood sellout…. their friends. It's another $1.9 billion tax break for the The boys, the Ghog brothers atA spen Planers, managed big corporations. They're rewarding their friends. These because of their own money, despite the punitive poli- are the same guys who financed their election cam- cies of the Liberal government. Without even a single paigns. So they're rewarding their friends. penny from this Liberal government or any help from You know what the burden is going to be on the this government, they built that empire on their own. average person? It's $430 per person — each and every They should not take credit for the great work that my British Columbian every year. friends in Merritt are doing. The Minister of Forests The Minister of Forests was up here. He stood up and ought to know that. he actually challenged me "to stand and support the You know, the member across the way…. I see he's HST." He actually challenged the opposition to "support smiling at me — the member for Coquitlam–Burke the HST to make B.C. the most competitive environ- Mountain. He talked about the boogeyman. He says the ment in Canada." That's what he said. NDP are talking about the boogeyman, as if the HST is It's a little hard to take. This is coming from the most the boogeyman. You want to look at the boogeyman, out-of-touch, do-nothing, hide-your-head-in-the-sand hon. Member? Take a little look to your left. Take a look Forests Minister in the history of this province, with, of at the Premier. And take a look at the Finance…. They're Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4189

the ones who brought the boogeyman into this province, dance. They do a song and a dance every time — every when 87 percent of the people of British Columbia are time. against it. First they said: "Oh boy…." You know, they brought it I heard the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin. You know, in as a PST bill, not an HST, and now they're trying to the hon. member from the Chilcotin had a profound link it and say: "We're going to put all of the money into moment in this Legislature. She got up here, and she health care." Oh yeah? I've got a thing to tell you, hon. spoke, and she had a profound moment. You know, I Speaker, through you: "No one believes you Liberals. No would think it was an epiphany. She had an epiphany one believes you." right here in the middle of this Legislature. They went out and actually hired this guy named Jack You know what she said? I quote her directly. This Mintz to come out and put a positive spin, after Jack is what her epiphany was, the member for Cariboo- Mintz was the very guy who came out and actually said Chilcotin: "When people start earning higher wages, there were going to be 38,000 jobs lost as a result of that. they spend more money." Well, hallelujah. Hallelujah. But do you know what? No matter what positive spin you All hail to the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin, because put on it, whether it's putting it into health care, whether she had an epiphany right here. Right here. it's saying they're going to look after greenhouse gases, I want to thank my colleagues from the Liberal benches, whether you say you're going to talk about the environ- because they were thumping their desks while I quoted ment and other things — guess what — no one believes the epiphany that the member from Cariboo South — it you Liberals. used to be called that — had. She said: "When people The B.C. Liberals of this province are a laughingstock start earning higher wages, they spend more money." in British Columbia. Every time they come out and they That was the quote. talk about defending the HST or anything else, no one I want my colleagues from across the way to get ready believes you. No one believes the Liberals. Nobody in to start thumping their desks, because I want them, on British Columbia believes you. That's why I'll be voting behalf of the people of British Columbia, to raise the against this HST bill. minimum wage. Raise the minimum wage. I don't see them thumping their desks. The lowest-paid workers in H. Lali moved adjournment of debate. society, and this mean-spirited, uncaring Liberal gov- ernment, for almost ten years now, has not raised the Motion approved. minimum wage. You know what? I take a look at their faces now. How Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported come they're not clapping? I'll tell you what. If you raise progress, was granted leave to sit again. the minimum wage for the lowest-paid workers in soci- ety right now instead of imposing the HST like you're Hon. G. Abbott moved adjournment of the House. doing, those people will be earning more wages and they will be able to actually spend more money to buy basic Motion approved. necessities like food and clothing and maybe even pay a little extra for rent to get a better place to stay. Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 How come you're not clapping? I don't hear them this afternoon. clapping right now. How come they're not clapping? I don't hear them clapping. Because they don't care. They The House adjourned at 11:57 a.m. only care about the people who are the big corporations. They don't care about the lowest-paid workers in soci- ety, because if they did, they'd be standing with us New PROCEEDINGS IN THE Democrats and asking to raise the minimum wage. DOUGLAS FIR ROOM You know, we heard one of the other members that got up here, the one member immediately before me, Committee of Supply say — and others who've said — that we need to be competitive with Ontario. Well, Ontario has raised their ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HOUSING minimum wage yet again, and you sit as the lowest of AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT all provinces in the country and haven't raised the min- imum wage for almost ten years now. The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. [1155] Bloy in the chair. I didn't know that the Finance Minister was such a good dancer, and I didn't know the Premier was such a The committee met at 10:08 a.m. good singer. All you get from these folks every time they get up and talk about the HST…. You get a song and a On Vote 39: ministry operations, $2,719,996,000. 4190 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

The Chair: Good morning, everyone, and welcome then it probably lags behind any economic recovery as to the Douglas Fir Room. Committee A is doing the well. By our experience, that's usually what the trend budget estimates on the Ministry of Housing and Social lines are over time. Development. Basically, the member is right. Primarily it is people who would be employable. At the same time, though, we Hon. R. Coleman: I am joined today here, behind have seen a bit of an increase, but not as large, in our me and with me — plus some folks who will come for- people with disabilities. ward depending on questions — by Cairine MacDonald, my deputy minister, and Sharon Moysey, who is the S. Simpson: Could the minister give us numbers assistant deputy minister of regional services. Molly for the increases in terms of folks receiving assistance Harrington is the ADM, policy and research. They are in both the category of employables and those with probably within the camera shot. disabilities? In addition to that, I have Alison Bond in the gallery, [1015] who is the ADM of employment, labour and market ser- vices; Jill Kot, who's the ADM on the integrated case Hon. R. Coleman: As of January 2010 there are management project; and Wes Boyd, who is the ADM, 177,526 recipients who are receiving income assistance, management services. compared to 154,378 in January 2009. The disability as- sistance caseload is expected to increase from 72,344 S. Simpson: Thanks to the minister and the minister's — as part of that number — to 76,190 in 2010-11. staff for being here. Just again, soI know. We've sent this information off to the minister's office, but today we'll S. Simpson: Thanks to the minister for that. I notice be dealing mostly in the morning with sort of general that in '11-12 and '12-13 the ministry is projecting that issues related to the service plan and those matters. the numbers will drop by about $32 million, $33 million [1010] in terms of income assistance. If we get through all that this morning, we'll start Could the minister tell us where, on what basis, on into the employment training. Otherwise, we'll get into what analysis they're expecting…? Presumably — I'm employment training, CLBC and the non-profits and assuming, and the minister can correct me — a number volunteers this afternoon. That will finish out today. It of those employable folks will be back in the workforce, will be liquor and housing tomorrow, and then we'll and there'll be jobs for those folks, and that will take move on to other things after that related to the Lottery about $30 million off the case roll. Could the minister Corporation and gaming and grants on Thursday. tell us on what basis they're making those projections? I'd like to start just with some general questions that relate to the ministry and some of the specific numbers Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, I can. The budget reflects around the ministry. So that the minister knows, what a $36.4 million — 1.3 percent — decrease from 2010- I'm going to be doing here is looking at the service plan 2011. This includes a reduction in income assistance, for this year and comparing back a little bit to last year's including temporary assistance, disability assistance and service plan to get some comparators. supplementary assistance. I'd like to start, if we go to the resource summaries in What we do is that we actually take historical trends the back…. I think it's page 20 in the current service plan going back a number of years, as rolls change based on and page 24 in last year's service plan. The core business the economy. At this time we anticipate the temporary areas are broken down, and then there are budget num- caseload will decline by approximately 12.9 percent be- bers that relate to those core areas. So what I'm going to tween 2010 and '11, and that will reduce the overall cost be looking for is a little bit of information from the min- of providing income assistance, obviously. ister in regard to some of those. We'll just walk through The projected decline in the caseload is attributed to some of these areas. an improving labour market beginning in 2010 and de- The minister will know that in the income assistance clining unemployment, which — just so the member area the original estimates for this year would have been knows — usually lags behind. Even though the economy about $1.44 billion for income assistance. That's now up changes, you notice a hiring…. Particularly small busi- to about $1.58 billion. Could the minister confirm that nesses will come back and hire slower because they're that is essentially a result of the economy and, largely, trying to, obviously, hedge against the recession or any that that's employables? Is that almost entirely employ- other downturns. This, in turn, brings us a gradual re- ables who have now fallen off of EI or whatever and are duction in temporary assistance. now collecting assistance? Between 2010-11 and 2011-12 we expect that the dis- ability assistance caseload, as it has historically, will grow Hon. R. Coleman: It is increased, probably because slightly and slowly, because we do see that traditionally. of the economy, and what happens is that it goes up, and Historically, decreases in temporary assistance, income Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4191

assistance lag behind improvement in the labour mar- minister can get us about those staffing levels in those ket, as I stated. core business areas for this year and projected out would We can review the caseload forecast and make ad- be helpful. justments during the 2011 and '12 budget process if the Just in reference to that answer, the minister, I believe, unemployment situation shifts dramatically in a way said there are about 200 positions now. Just to confirm, not currently anticipated. What we do is that we actually is that 200 positions throughout the ministry, or is that track these month to month, and as we're building into 200 positions within the income assistance core busi- our budget for each year, we do a year-over-year com- ness area? parison. Then we come in and give our best data, based on historical trends and what's happening, to Finance as Hon. R. Coleman: That is 200 people across the en- we build our budgets. tire ministry. That's out of the 2,500 staff we had. We did not touch front-line services with regards to any of our S. Simpson: I'm going to stay with the income assist- social services. I'm advised that as of today four staff out ance area a little bit around some of these numbers. The of the 200 staff that were affected by our workforce ad- minister will know that the service plan that came out justment remain to be placed within government. in February 2009 would have been the last service plan where FTEs were actually included. In the current ser- S. Simpson: Moving down to the next business area, vice plan that was released in March 2010 there is no employment is the next area on the page. Employment calculation of FTEs in the ministry. shows a reduction from what was initially projected I want to pursue that a little bit to understand what's back in February of 2009. It was going to be about $94.8 happening with staffing levels. The February 2009 re- million in employment. This is provincial dollars, not port suggested that for this year there would be 1,347 the dollars that have been transferred federally. In prov- FTEs and that that number would continue in 2011- incial dollars, it was to be about $94.8 million. 2012. Could the minister tell us whether there are any That number has been adjusted down in the current projected changes in those numbers from the ones that service plan to $71.8 million — a significant cut, a cut of were released in February 2009? over $21 million. Could the minister tell us where those [1020] areas of that cut are? [1025] Hon. R. Coleman: I'm sure the member recalls that we canvassed this in some detail last fall. We've not im- Hon. R. Coleman: The actual number in '09-10 esti- pacted front-line services. I don't have the exact number mates, as the budget came through, is $82 million versus of FTEs just in social services. I have the larger number, $94 million that was there. The reason for that is because which is the ministry number, and we'll endeavour to of the restating of the ministry to a large part, which break that out for you. We'll try and get that number for means basically the Ministry of Citizens' Services took you some time today. back some of the Shared Services costs, and it's now over We've made no staffing changes in 2010-11 or '11-12. in their budget versus ours. We have not impacted front-line services whatsoever. The balance of that is actually a reduction in employ- Our changes when we did workforce adjustments were ment programs at the ministry level. That's because we actually done last fall, and those have all been completed. were taking on the labour market development agree- That was about 200 people that were impacted by work- ment with the feds, which allowed us to gain some force adjustment. Those were not in front-line services efficiencies. Blending the two programs together al- but people in other jobs within the ministry — reducing lowed us to actually serve more clients but with a little certain things like administration departments, that sort less money. of stuff, and managing our offices a bit differently. As of February 2010 only seven of those 200 people S. Simpson: So with this now, my understanding — remain to be placed within government. We're optimis- and we'll get into more of this detail this afternoon when tic that all impacted staff will be placed by the fiscal year we talk about employment — is that the federal pot of end, which was March 31. I don't know if we accom- money that transferred over was something in excess of plished that by March 31. I'm getting a nod, but I will $300 million to cover EI part 2, essentially, which now is confirm that for the member in the next question. falling under the province. A couple hundred staff came with that from federal staff, as I understand it. S. Simpson: We'll be talking more about some of the What I hear the minister saying, then, is that that al- staffing, just so the minister knows, and we'll talk about lowed, for any number of reasons, the provincial share this in general terms. But if the minister would know of provincial dollars to be reduced as this gets blended that the core business areas…. Previously there had together. It was my understanding though, and the min- been staffing numbers for that. Any information the ister can correct this, that that program still continues to 4192 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

be fairly separate and distinct under the agreement until, mentioned on the social development side that were do- I believe, 2011, when it fully transitions into an entirely ing employment were caught in the fact that they were provincial program, with provincial priorities and such. also doing some other service delivery at the office level [1030] with regards to other jobs they were doing. So it was all If that's the case, maybe the minister could tell us if about…. It wasn't separated out before all the FTEs were there are programs or initiatives the province would there. have been paying for that are now off the table because Now that staff is still over there — some of them — of the reduction in dollars — considering, I thought, and a bunch of them moved over to do delivery directly that the federal dollars were pretty dedicated, for the of the programs, because by merging the two operations, moment. we had some changes. There's no reduction of services with regards to this. There's no reduction of staff pos- Hon. R. Coleman: I'm going to try to explain this. itions. The only reduction was one staff position, which This is almost getting to be a technical briefing level. was an ADM position. There will be no reductions in Basically, the labour market development agreement '10-11 and no reductions in '11-12. that we have is for EI, part 2, but in addition to that, In '13-14 the administrative dollars from the fed- there was stimulus money that came through of about eral government change, or they run out. There may be $10 million for other programs. There was some labour adjustments that have to be made, depending on the market agreement funding for employment-related in- economy and how many people are unemployed and itiatives that came through in addition to that. Then that sort of thing and how many people need training in there was some federal strategic training and transition the year 2013-2014. At this stage there are no reductions funding that came through. to staff during this period. That, coupled with us being able to find efficiencies within our own operation because we had a number of S. Simpson: We'll get to more detail about that when programs that we could match up with now, found us we get to talking about employment. some savings. Basically, this didn't mean that we served The next area in the resource summary is the hous- less people. We actually served more people, because of ing area. The housing area shows, from what was the the ability to leverage funds. I don't have the breakdown restated '09-10 number…. We know that the housing of that leveraging in front of me, but that would be the number, the restated number, I think, here was $357,528 explanation. for '09-10. Then it shows about a $9 million reduction into the current year and then a couple of million dollar S. Simpson: I know that in the pot of money that was reduction for the next couple of subsequent years. the transferred federal dollars…. There was a pot, and Maybe the minister could first briefly explain the dif- then I know there was an additional pot of $30 million, ference between where this housing budget is versus $40 million, $50 million. I'm assuming those are these the budget in B.C. Housing itself, which we'll talk about additional dollars, over on top of what were the pro- when we get to B.C. Housing tomorrow. What's this gram dollars. This is the combination of those dollars money versus the $800-odd million in B.C. Housing's that make up what the minister was talking about, I sus- budget, just to distinguish the difference, and what's that pect, if he could just confirm that. $9 million cut? A question relates. When I look back again to the [1040] February '09 service plan, it showed there that in '08- 09 there were 302 people employed in this sector. I'm Hon. R. Coleman: It's all B.C. Housing, but it would assuming those were the provincial employees. Then it be more appropriate with the present CEO, Shayne jumps to almost 600 people, and that's when they pooled Ramsay, here. The operating subsidies change on…. This all the federal people in, the people who administer that would be the operating subsidies, but they also receive program, so we now have a number of 599 — 600 less capital funds. They get matching funds from the federal one. government. They receive other funds from the ministry Could the minister tell us two things. First, has there when they're doing something like putting supports in been a reduction in the number of employees who were a place that we would fund over to them to deliver the here before the federal people transferred over? And supports — let's say in a place that's doing some mental second, is this number expected to stay pretty much health and addictions — and also the federal-provincial current at 600, roughly, for the next couple of years that partnerships and that sort of thing. So these are the were reported in this report? operating funds. [1035] The reason — and I remember asking this question before, but we can get into more detail when we have Hon. R. Coleman: I'm going to try and clarify the the CEO here — is that each year our operating dollars numbers first for you. The 300-plus that the member had change because we might have paid down a mortgage, Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4193

or our interest rates have fluctuated downward. A lot of crease of $15 million, whatever that increased number, this is operating subsidies for non-profits to pay mort- was? gages and what have you. As mortgages get paid down or Then just as a second question that relates to that, I principals come down or our reserves aren't necessary at see that number stays static for the next couple of years. certain levels, they will adjust their budget. Is the ministry anticipating, then, that they may very My understanding of this is that some mortgages ac- well be back into a wait-list situation just because there tually no longer needed to be funded because the price isn't a further increase to cover additional growth in the had come down, but I think that it would be better to get sector? into more detail when we have Mr. Ramsay here. He is in Victoria. I can get him, if you need, today. Hon. R. Coleman: I think Community Living B.C. has made some significant strides in the last couple of S. Simpson: What I'm really looking for here…. And years, with both contract management and how they're I'm happy to certainly get into the detail. If there are going to deliver services in the future, in addition to questions, it's much more appropriate with Mr. Ramsay having the additional funds to try and deal with the here. That makes sense to me, and we'll get to those to- wait-lists. morrow afternoon. I think that as we get into those discussions, when the Without getting to the numbers and the details, I'm CEO is here, with regards to Community Living later to- just trying to understand if it's operating. So there's a day, you'll find that we're finding the savings we need by budget that sits within the ministry of $346 million, actually running our contracts differently and in a more $347 million, whatever it is there, and that's the housing modern way than maybe how we were traditionally with budget within the core business areas. regards to people with developmental disabilities. We Then we haveB .C. Housing, which has a budget of its have found there are levels of what would be called…. own, and we'll get to the B.C. Housing budget. So these Today it would be more the quality of service that are operating dollars and subsidy dollars — these dol- can be done differently. There's actually a way to deliver lars here, the $346 million. services better, so they are doing a contract review and doing some changes. They're pretty comfortable that Hon. R. Coleman: The bulk of the money that you they're finding the savings they can operate with and ac- stated here gets transferred to B.C. Housing. It comes complish the goals that they've set out for themselves. through the ministry budget, flows to B.C. Housing. We don't touch it. It's just basically their operating dol- S. Simpson: I have had the opportunity to have quite lars, but when we state it in government, I understand a few discussions with people in the community living we state that it was coming through our hands to them. sector, who work in that sector. I do look forward to Then they do their budget based on what dollars flow to continuing these discussions when the CLBC officials them. are here. We'll just move on, and we'll get back to that There would be a small piece of this that wouldn't go number in due course. to B.C. Housing, and that would be money that would The gaming policy and enforcement. The numbers be funding things like the building standards branch have stayed at about $17 million. Then they drop a little and residential tenancy. The rest of it would all flow to bit after that, and they continue to drop a few hundred B.C. Housing. thousand dollars. Just curious: is there anything in par- In addition to that, then they receive the capital that ticular that gets lost in that $300,000 or $400,000 of cut they're investing in new builds and then capital that they in funding, or is it administrative? would receive in matching funds to do with the feds for the other things we're doing and some other funds that Hon. R. Coleman: It's all administrative. would be for operating costs for people who have differ- ent multiple barriers and stuff like that. For that piece, I S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us…? We know think we should probably wait for Shayne. that the government had spoken before…. I believe that this is certainly the case in the Ministry of Children and S. Simpson: Moving on, the next item on the list is Families, and I just want to know whether this would be Community Living B.C. We'll talk about that quite a bit a similar situation in Housing and Social Development. more this afternoon. The budget did increase. This was There are a number of areas,I believe, in Children and one of the areas, I know, within the ministry where there Families where the ministry has made the determina- was a budget increase this year. tion that there are programs that were with contracted [1045] agencies that the government would pull back in-house I've been told that the purpose of that was to try to and conduct itself more directly, rather than having deal with wait-lists and get reduced wait-lists. Could the them delivered by contracted agencies. I know that's the minister confirm that that's what the intention of the in- instance, in some cases, with Children and Families. I'm 4194 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010 wondering whether that is also the situation with the that the overall budget for this is getting more into the ministry. range of $180 million. Could the minister tell us what the figures are in terms of that increase over what was Hon. R. Coleman: Not on the adult side, no. I can't the original projection of $107.3 million to what it is speak for the Children and Families side, other than the now and why the increase in costs? fact that in some of the changes you'll see in the restated budgets, you'll note that there's a transition of the chil- Hon. R. Coleman: I will apologize to the member dren, on recommendation from the children's advocate, in advance if I take a bit more time than usual between children's commissioner…. The services to youth come questions, because my technical ability on some of these back into Children and Families. They're doing their is way beyond the scope of the minister. I can operate a own work on that. We're not changing our contracting, BlackBerry, but I don't think I could program anything. and we're not bringing a bunch of stuff in-house. Just for the member's information, the original budget and associated costs were developed based on S. Simpson: We'll just talk a little bit more about that assumptions informed by a variety of factors, includ- in a bit, but at this point I wondered if the minister could ing the experiences of B.C. and other jurisdictions in tell us…. I know there was an announcement. I believe it implementing case management systems, the costs of was in February. ThenI think there was a release shortly commercial software and the advice from external ex- after that in regard to integrated case management sys- perts such as the Gartner Group, a global IT advisory tems within the ministry, and I believe that the ministry and research firm. announced the letting of a contract for the first phase of this. [J. McIntyre in the chair.] Could the minister tell us what the cost of that was and what in fact this…? Maybe the minister could just In March 2008 — the member is right — the capital give us a little bit of a background about what this new budget for this integrated case management was $107 case management system is, what it hopes to achieve, million over five years from procurement to implemen- and then we'll talk about what it costs. tation to integration. The overall budget for the project increased for four primary reasons. Hon. R. Coleman: We'll get into the details and the First, more functionality will be delivered by the pro- dollars. The staff are coming in behind me. ject, which means it can actually integrate more across [1050] ministries and have more functional services for the The reason for the integrated case management project ministries that want to use it, and over time it will be is to basically have a new system in place for government, adaptable, quite frankly, into other ministries across particularly at this stage, for Children and Families and government. for the Ministry of Housing and Social Development. A more conservative phased approach has been The member is probably aware that we are operat- adopted, increasing the length of the project and in- ing on a significantly old system, probably in the age of creasing testing and training costs associated with each over 30 years. That old system doesn't even have the ex- phase to make sure that we're getting what we wanted pertise, without maybe some personnel in government for what we're paying for. The outcomes are there, which that are due to retire in the next few years that would allows us throughout the project to take a step back and actually know how to adapt it, fix it or deal with it, be- have the ability to adapt it. cause it's actually outlived, basically, the technological The project contingency was increased to make sure age completely. that we would cover the costs going forward, and for the There's always been a concern that at some stage the system integrator costs, the bids actually came in higher system will not be able to continue and that we would than the original estimates. So approximately $38 mil- not be in a position to even do so much as issue the lion has been spent to the end of December 2009. The cheques every month. There is a challenge even with the overall budget for the project is $181.7 million, with cheques today. Because of the pressure on the system, $86.8 million of that for system integration services. we actually have to stop doing a number of functions each month while we do the social assistance payouts. S. Simpson: The decisions to do this…. The minis- So that's the reason for it, and I'll get some…. Maybe ter certainly will know this. The minister will know that the member wants to start asking some specific ques- there have been concerns raised about the move to this tions, and I'll take you through what the project is. system, or the process, I think. I'm not so sure that the criticisms that I've heard are so much about the princi- S. Simpson: I believe that this was back about three ple of having an improved and integrated management years ago when this project was first conceived. The pro- system but about the complexities of doing that. We've jected budget was about $107 million. I now understand seen numerous governments across this country and Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4195

elsewhere who have had real challenges, both in terms financial assistance to our clients.A s we do this, though, of spiralling costs and in terms of security and manage- it's always been that we're going to protect the personal ment of information. information of citizens that is held by government. [1055] TheIC M system will enhance the privacy and security The minister will know that theF reedom of Information of information through the use of modern technology and Privacy Association, Darrell Evans, raised concerns and best practices, because the system we have today about this, and Mr. Loukidelis, when he was in his former doesn't actually allow for some of the things that we're role as Information and Privacy Commissioner, raised able to include in this system. Some of the things that are issues about this. In his annual report that he released included in this system that we don't have today because in 2009, Mr. Loukidelis suggested that "government not of the functionality would be things like role-based ac- move forward with any legislated changes in this area cess for workers, thus restricting access to information unless and until there has been a full public consultation to only those who need it; enhanced audit abilities with in the form of a position paper published by the govern- regards to who's using the system and how; and multi- ment, followed by meaningful, extensive stakeholder level security capabilities. consultations." Could the minister tell us what consulta- [1100] tion has occurred prior to moving this forward? As the member knows, we have some pretty stringent privacy legislation in British Columbia with regards to Hon. R. Coleman: I think I'll answer it in a number these types of things, and we've been working with the of ways for the member, and maybe I can get to where provincial chief information officer as well as the Office we can get to on this. I think I'll just start by reading into of the Privacy Commissioner to ensure that the ICM the record, because the Minister of Citizens' Services system meets all of these requirements. answered a question with regards to this in his esti- Our front-line workers, for instance, in the Ministries mates. They are actually the ministry responsible for of Housing and Social Development and of Children the technical side of government, and we're the client in and Family Development only have access to informa- partnership. We're delivering the project. tion that is necessary for a specific purpose and for them His comment with regards to the report was: to do their jobs and deliver services in an integrated "I think…the report that the member refers to is in the annual manner. They will not have wide-open access to all the Privacy Commissioner's report. It doesn't relate to this par- ticular project, because this project has only just recently been information in a case management system. Access to announced and was in the formation stages when the report last the system will be through password-protected author- came out. ization with multiple security checkpoints at each level "I just want to refer to what the ICM project is really about just — for example, the network, the application, etc. so that the opposition members clearly understand why this is The ministries currently share information between genuinely needed. Government is committed to ensuring the pri- vacy and security of British Columbians' personal information. existing systems, and the service providers are contrac- We're also committed to the reforms to address the repeated calls tually agreed to. ICM will enable real-time access to for changes in how we share information. These calls are included existing information for more efficiency, and informa- in a number of reports written in response to tragedies affecting tion collected will only be accessed by people who have citizens, including our most vulnerable. "The integrated case management system will initially serve the the right to access it to do their daily jobs. Ministry of Housing and Social Development and the Ministry of Children and Family…. The project's longer-term vision is to S. Simpson: I appreciate that, and as we know…. We'll serve government's social services sector. It's important to note talk a little bit about the other system, the PARIS system that the people using the system will only have access for the information necessary to fulfil their responsibilities, and privacy that CLBC uses, when the CLBC folks are here — and is paramount." some of the challenges there. But the minister will prob- I know that when I became the minister responsible ably know that system, the PARIS system, is also one in 2008, one of the real big concerns that existed within that is used by Coastal Health, and there were some sig- this ministry was the old technical systems that existed nificant criticisms of that system by theA uditor General. out there with regards to our ability to serve our clients, They really revolved around some of the questions thatI because we were still having trouble with integrating the think the minister quite rightly is saying he's looking to information so we could actually serve our clients more address here around need-to-know access and need to efficiently and get the services to them and have the re- know and those things. cords to deal with them in the best place, whether it be What the Auditor General said in the case of Coastal doctors or employment programs or whatever the case Health using that system, in their audit, was: "Based on may be. the conclusions of this audit and other work performed The second thing was obviously the concern over the by my staff, some of the fundamental security weak- aged system and the fact that if it ever did go down, we nesses identified in this information system may be were going to be in a significant challenge with regards present to some degree in other government systems." to being able to serve just a simple process of providing So the Auditor General flagged a problem he saw. 4196 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

I don't think there's any question that if we can get Basically, what we're doing on that is working on a to a system that everybody is comfortable with, which plan for engaging our various stakeholders — i.e., com- allows the access of information for those who should munity partners, contracted service providers, clients, access it quickly and efficiently, that's all a good thing. etc. The approach and timing of the engagement will de- If we can do that, that's better than following around pend on where we're at in the project. In future phases pieces of paper. we anticipate providing some client self-service features, But we also know that this is a very expensive thing such as the development of the client service features. to do, and we know that a number of other governments As the development of these plans progresses, the min- have had more than their challenges with trying to im- istry will consider the best approach to get input from plement information systems both in terms of costs and our clients prior to designing the self-service features. in terms of some of these questions around security and Information about the project has been shared with privacy rights and all that. a number of service provider groups, and stakeholder So I get back again to the question that Mr. Loukidelis engagement strategy of that is already underway. The raised in his annual report, which was to push there for integration with the broader social sector ministries is a level of consultation — a position paper, I believe he anticipated in the future phases of ICM beyond phase 5. called for at that time. I think what Mr. Loukidelis was At this stage the detailed information requirements have saying, from my understanding of reading this, is that not been developed, and it will require further consulta- there's nothing wrong with going in this direction, but tion with those organizations at that time. that it really is something that affects the public in a unique way in terms of their own privacy of their own S. Simpson: I think it is interesting, as the minister personal information and that there needs to be some points out, that the advice of the Auditor General in extra due diligence around that because you're dealing his report when he dealt with that question around the with people's personal information. PARIS system in health said: "The adoption of a compre- We know that because of illegal activity, we've had hensive and strategic approach to information security some challenges around that. But these are questions of is critical for securing the environment and protecting illegal activity, I believe. We'll let the courts decide that. sensitive personal information. I would encourage other Has there been or will there be any consultation and organizations in the health industry and similar sectors discussion around that, particularly as the minister said to review the report, as our findings and recommenda- that they're pretty early in this process — I think step tions may be useful to them as well." one, the first $25 million, $28 million in this first con- I'm pleased, and I'm sure the minister and his officials tract as the system plays out? So is there a plan for any will be paying attention to the advice that the Auditor kind of further consultation or discussion based on the General gave in his audit and his recommendations. recommendations of Mr. Loukidelis? I would tell the minister that I think I can program my BlackBerry, so I may be a step ahead of him on that Hon. R. Coleman: Yes, there is, but I'll just touch stuff. briefly becauseI know that we're going to do CLBC later. On the PARIS system, in February 2010 the Office of Interjection. the Auditor General raised concerns about the secur- ity controls and procedures in place to protect health S. Simpson: Hey, you're pretty good. information contained in the primary access regional We'll get to more discussion around this as it relates to information system, which PARIS is the acronym for. CLBC later this afternoon. There's been the transfer, just The Auditor General did not find fault with the sys- more recently, of some areas. I know that the youth and tem. Rather, the issues were specific to the Vancouver children around the CLBC, developmental disabilities, Coastal Health Authority's access and security con- have transferred over now to MCFD. trols. Community Living B.C. is thoroughly reviewing Have there been any other program areas of the min- the Auditor General's report where appropriate and will istry that have transferred to other ministries in the last enhance the controls in place to protect their client in- year or so? And if so, what are the financial or staffing formation, subsequent to that report. implications of that? The interesting thing about consultation on some of these things is that you could consult with you and me Hon. R. Coleman: In '09-10 the only transfer is the about what system was necessary to run a $4 billion or ICM projects being sent here for the management of the $5 billion operation within government. We wouldn't be projects. So we have the ADM now housed in this min- able to give very good input with regards to that, un- istry that will oversee the project, because we're the first less maybe the member opposite is more technically clients. We'll work with Children and Families, and the inclined than I am. Ministry of Citizens' Services will basically be working [1105] with us on that. Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4197

A year or so ago the funds for transition housing and tion, which is a more carbon-neutral product but also programs related to people claiming abuse and that sort brings a higher efficiency to the buildings. of thing were transferred to us from community ser- Each of those things, the last three I mentioned, vices. We took the transition houses by agreement to the doesn't affect the budget at all. They're all being done management of B.C. Housing, which was doing a lot of within the building standards branch which we have their management of properties anyway at the time. We within the ministry, and they're able to manage all of took those dollars that were there and made sure they that within their budgets. stayed with B.C. Housing. TheC rown corporations that we have each have plans [1110] with regards to their own energy efficiency, and I'd sug- Then we transferred the program dollars to the gest that we could canvass those with the individual Solicitor General because they have victim services, and Crowns when they come through for the estimates in we felt it was a better fit within government to have them the next couple of days. delivering those services. The only other thing that moved around is…. S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us: have there Obviously, there's the shared services stuff within gov- been any changes in the budgets for the minister's office ernment that has been moved so that some of the shared or executive services in this budget year? services things that we would be responsible for are now [1115] with Citizens' Services. Hon. R. Coleman: The ministry's budget is actually S. Simpson: The ministry, like all ministries, I know status quo. The minister's office budget is up slightly to plays a role around the climate initiatives to make the reflect what was an understated number from the previ- ministry as close to carbon neutral as it can be. Could ous year with regard to some travel and some other costs, the minister tell us what initiatives and what the costs and to anticipate the costs related to a maternity leave. related to those are for the ministry to meet its respon- sibilities under the government policy? S. Simpson: I take from that that there has been no change in the FTEs in the minister's office? Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, we as a ministry have focused on energy efficiencies on the equipment that we Hon. R. Coleman: No. purchase and the stuff that we use within our own oper- ations. We've reduced the number of computers that S. Simpson: I should know the answer to this, but were spares by cutting them all back as much as possible. does the minister have a parliamentary secretary? We've gone to multi-functioning devices so that there's not a printer on every desk versus they're all massed up, Hon. R. Coleman: No, I do not. so you're not running the same number of printers. The vehicles that we now have are all hybrids, and S. Simpson: We're just cooking with gas here, so to we've been working on the reduction in the number of speak. You knew that one right off the bat. It wasn't a square feet required per staff member in some of our of- technical question. fices to get the savings on energy efficiency. We're doing Could the minister tell us: have there been any areas more things on line and by phone as much as possible, of the ministry or of ministry programs that have been given that some of our clientele don't have access to that. audited in the last year? We want them to actually have some direct connection [1120] with us, as the member would understand, because they have, in some cases, multiple barriers and services they Hon. R. Coleman: We've had the usual financial state- need. ment audits, and we've engaged the Auditor General to The ministry is also responsible for the built environ- do the audits of the LMDA expenditures because that's ment project, which is a project within the ministry part of the agreement with the federal government. to identify how future subdivisions and those sorts of The comptroller general has had some cross-govern- things for energy efficiency — use of water and sewer ment reviews that included things like risk management and those sorts of things — and the integrated pro- and contracting and that sort of thing which we partici- ject across government can be managed. That is work pated in, but they weren't focused on our ministry. So ongoing. we participated by providing information to an overall We've been greening the building code. We went to larger review done by the comptroller general. low-flush toilets not too long ago. We've been changing the rules to get more green and efficient buildings and S. Simpson: Does the ministry have an engagement allow for the greening of the building code. We actually relationship with Partnerships B.C.? And if so, has it changed the code for six-storey wood-frame construc- done any business with Partnerships B.C. this last year? 4198 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010

Hon. R. Coleman: No, we haven't. doing it because it's the connection to government? I think I've seen what looks like more than $18,000 worth S. Simpson: Has the ministry done an assessment of of advertising with the Ministry of Housing and Social what the potential impacts of the HST will be on the Development identified on it — and much of it statutory ministry and on its Crowns and that, in terms of po- kinds of advertising to public service kinds of advertis- tential cost pressures or required changes within the ing and not necessarily promotional advertising. ministry to meet obligations around the HST? So are those agencies and organizations then covering that off in their budgets for what is essentially advertis- Hon. R. Coleman: While my folks are looking for ing that also reflects the ministry? the stuff related to the ministry, I'll just mention to the [1130] member that each one of the Crowns has done this. As we get to each Crown we can make that question applic- Hon. R. Coleman: The member is correct. The able, because I don't think we have that level of detail Crowns do have their own advertising budgets. We can here today. We will get the information, and I will read deal with those when they come forward. It's not un- it into the record. common that if we're a funding partner, they would put Just dealing with this first — and then the member our logo on it. can decide where he wants to go from here with regards We actually only spend $18,000 a year, and it's on in- to Crowns or other questions — anything that we pay as formation pamphlets. Anything that is public, that is a ministry is recovered through a program through the statutory advertising, that sort of stuff, is all done through budget process. So we're kept whole with regards to our Citizens' Services, through the public affairs bureau. We HST through a process that I think has actually been don't drive that advertising. They do it for government done through the comptroller general's office. as a whole. That's why we only have the small amount [1125] for the advertising within the ministry itself.

S. Simpson: The work that the ministry does on this, S. Simpson: So through Citizens' Services, presum- and it makes itself whole…. The ministry has a whole ably the public affairs bureau, who manages that for range, obviously, of contracted agencies — that dol- Citizens' Services. They drive all that advertising out lars flow through the ministry to a wide, wide range of of their budget. When they do that, though it is their service providers who deliver services on behalf of the budget, do they break out how much of that is attribut- ministry or the agencies. Has the ministry done any as- able to separate ministries and are able to say: "Housing sessment of HST impacts on those organizations and and Social Development, we delivered X dollars' worth affected their budgets in any way to reflect additional of advertising that would kind of fit there"? Do they do costs related to the HST? that, and can you get that information?

Hon. R. Coleman: The provincial HST rebates are Hon. R. Coleman: I've never had that question be- being designed to ensure that eligible entities, muni- fore, so I will see if I can endeavour to get the member cipalities, local government organizations, registered an answer to that question. It is through the public af- charities and qualified non-profits pay no additional tax fairs bureau, through Citizens' Services. We'll check on due to harmonization. Basically, they will submit, they that. will get rebated, and we'll keep their budgets whole. I do know that they have staff that are assigned to basically deal with our public affairs over there for each S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us: what was the ministry. We know that each of us has communication advertising budget for the ministry for this year? I sus- director, and then there are some staff that deal with pect he's going to tell me all the Crowns have separate things, if there are events and things coming up, that advertising budgets. If they do, we'll have that discus- they would plan and work with us on. I'll see if that sion with them — but the budget for the ministry. breakout is available.

Hon. R. Coleman: Our advertising budget is S. Simpson: I appreciate that the minister had said $18,000. previously around some of the FTE questions where there weren't…. The minister at the moment doesn't S. Simpson: So $18,000 — okay. Presumably, the have specifics. We'll get more specifics on what those agencies and organizations all have budgets of their own, FTE breakouts look like based on the core business areas and we know that some of those are considerably more of the ministry. than $18,000. With that, what I'm going to do at this point, hon. When they're advertising, and they put…. Are they Chair, is turn some questions over to my colleague from then, when they tag the ministry's logo to that, simply Burnaby–Deer Lake, who has some questions of a gen- Tuesday, April 13, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4199

eral nature. Then after the lunch break we'll be back and the events and invited the guests. I attended as a host dealing with employment matters. with the Lottery Corporation.

K. Corrigan: I have some questions about the [H. Bloy in the chair.] Olympics for the minister. My first question for the minister was: did the minister or any of his staff receive I know that they're preparing a report of all their use Olympic tickets? of tickets and who attended. I don't have that here to- day, but I know that that's being done, similar to what's Hon. R. Coleman: None of my staff, to my know- being done elsewhere in government. Other than that, ledge, received any tickets for the Olympics. I did that's the only…. attend I believe it was five events in my role as minister That's the description,I guess, of how the tickets were responsible for the B.C. Lottery Corporation in a host- done with regards to me, and I chose to do that because ing situation. the Lottery Corporation felt it would be beneficial if the minister attended some events. K. Corrigan: Did the minister attend any other events not in his role as the minister responsible but paid for by K. Corrigan: Okay, so the minister spoke about the the taxpayers of British Columbia? Lottery Corporation tickets. Then how many tickets and what value of tickets did the Lottery Corporation have Hon. R. Coleman: I just forgot one, and that was the to distribute? B.C. Day Victory Ceremony at B.C. Place. I did attend as a member of the government, and that was the only Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know the number off the other event that I attended where the taxpayers were in- top of my head. The Lottery Corporation, with the volved in any purchase or payment of the ticket. That agreement of the critic, is here on, I believe, Thursday. was all that I was involved in. I'm sure they would have that. Their tickets came as part of a sponsorship agreement. K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister took any They were one of the official sponsors throughANOC V guests, and if so, who they were. with regards to some other things — I think SportsFunder [1135] was part of that — and for athletes and some of the other things with regards to their participation. They would be Hon. R. Coleman: Yes, I did. On the five occasions more qualified to answer those types of questions. that I went with regards to the Lottery Corporation, I I know that I don't have that information here today, took my spouse. but I'm sure that they'll have no problem providing it. Since the member has asked the question well in ad- K. Corrigan: Were your spouse's tickets paid for by vance, I'm sure we'll have the information when the the taxpayers? Lottery Corporation comes.

Hon. R. Coleman: No. I reimbursed the entire value K. Corrigan: Thank you. I appreciate that. of the tickets to the B.C. Lottery Corporation. I'm wondering if there were other expenses related to hosting the Olympic Games. The minister mentioned the K. Corrigan: One of the things I've wondered about tickets, and I'm wondering if it's possible, with regard to when I've been looking at this with various ministries the tickets, to find out what the value of the tickets were and ministers is I'm trying to get a sense of where the as well as any other expenses incurred, such as meals, plan was made about the decision to host and what the hotels, travels or other costs that were associated. hosting looked like. I know that yesterday I was with the Minister of Hon. R. Coleman: I'm sure that we can get the same Agriculture, and the minister was talking about various thing on Wednesday or Thursday. We can get you the events to promote agriculture, which seems quite legit- value of the tickets. The face-value, I imagine, was iden- imate. So in terms of the events that this minister went tified. With regards to any other travel, hotel costs, meal to, I'm wondering if the minister made the decision costs, there were none. about what events to go to or whether that planning and the distribution of tickets took place in another ministry K. Corrigan: Sorry, I missed the last part of that with or by someone else. respect to the other costs. I'm sorry. Could you just re- peat it? Hon. R. Coleman: Neither, actually. The Lottery Corporation asked if I would be available to host any Hon. R. Coleman: What I said was that when the events during the Olympics, and they actually picked corporation comes, I'm sure they'll be able to tell you the 4200 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 13, 2010 value of the tickets, etc., and what have you. With regards because we want to find out what the overall costs of to personal expenses, there were no other expenses. the Olympics are. My concern about that report is that [1140] we haven't been able to receive assurance of exactly how detailed the breakdown is going to be. That's why I've K. Corrigan: I wanted to ask a couple of questions about been asking the questions of the ministers in the indi- the employee loan program. My question to the minister vidual ministries, to try to parse it out a little more in is: were there any employees from this ministry or from each ministry. the Crown corporations — from the Lottery Corp or I'm wondering if it's possible, if we don't have the in- any other entities controlled by the ministry — that were formation right now, to find out what the value of those loaned to VANOC as part of the employee loan program? approximately 65 employees are, how much that is going to cost and be worth. If we can't have that today, it would Hon. R. Coleman: It's more complicated than just be fine. I don't mind waiting for a few days for it, but I giving you a straight number, I understand, but it was would appreciate getting that information. about 65 employees, in total, from the ministry. We're still reconciling some manual time sheets and informa- Hon. R. Coleman: I can give you what our estimate is. tion from VANOC, because VANOC paid for some of The estimated total cost was about $80,600, keeping in our staff, and others were there in other capacities. So mind, when the reconciliation comes in, that if VANOC we're reconciling it from here. paid for somebody, it would be offset against that. That's The estimate today, right now, is about 65 employees, the information we're working on. That's the estimate and all of that will be reconciled into government, into we have today. the overall report. That's where we're at with ours, and Noting the hour, hon. Chair, I move that the commit- we would expect the balance of the information to come tee rise, report progress and seek leave to sit again. through from VANOC in the not too distant future. Motion approved. K. Corrigan: I've heard that there is this report coming, and I think we in opposition all appreciate it, The committee rose at 11:44 a.m. Hansard Services

Director Jo-Anne Kern

Manager of Print Production Robert Sutherland

Post-Production Team Leader Christine Fedoruk

Editorial Team Leaders Laurel Bernard, Janet Brazier, Robyn Swanson

Senior Editor — Galleys Heather Bright

Technical Operations Officers Pamela Holmes, Emily Jacques, Dan Kerr

Indexers Shannon Ash, Julie McClung, Robin Rohrmoser

Researchers Jaime Apolonio, Mike Beninger

Editors Anton Baer, Aaron Ellingsen, Deirdre Gotto, Margaret Gracie, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Linda Guy, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Paula Lee, Nicole Lindsay, Donna McCloskey, Bob McIntosh, Anne Maclean, Constance Maskery, Jill Milkert, Lind Miller, Lou Mitchell, Karol Morris, Dorothy Pearson, Erik Pedersen, Peggy Pedersen, Janet Pink, Amy Reiswig, Heather Warren, Arlene Wells, Glenn Wigmore

Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker.

Printing Agent Crown Publications, Queen's Printer for British Columbia 563 Superior St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 9V7 Toll-Free: 1-800-663-6105 telephone: (250) 387-6409 Fax: (250) 387-1120 e-mail: [email protected]

Rates Single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $396. GST extra.

www.leg.bc.ca

Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet. Question Period podcasts are available on the Internet.