Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru (Y Cofnod Swyddogol)

The National Assembly for Wales (The Official Record)

Dydd Mawrth 1 Gorffennaf 2003

Tuesday 1 July 2003 01/07/2003

Cynnwys Contents

3 Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog Questions to the First Minister

27 Cwestiwn Brys Urgent Question

33 Datganiad Busnes Business Statement

39 Pwynt o Drefn Point of Order

39 Datganiad ar Ddatganoli’r Gwasanaeth Tân Statement on Fire Service Devolution

50 Datganiad ar Ddysgu ac Addysgu Cymru Statement on Education and Learning Wales

63 Pwyntiau o Drefn Points of Order

66 Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion Composite Motion: Approval of Orders

66 Sefydlu Pwyllgor y Mesur Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) The Establishment of the Public Audit (Wales) Bill Committee

70 Adeilad Newydd y Cynulliad The New Assembly Building

102 Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr. Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been included.

2 01/07/2003

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair. The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog Questions to the First Minister

Cymoedd y De The South Wales Valleys

Q1 Janice Gregory: How is the Assembly C1 Janice Gregory: Sut y mae Llywodraeth Government helping to ensure that the south y Cynulliad yn helpu sicrhau bod Cymoedd y Wales Valleys are an attractive area for De yn ardal ddeniadol i weithgarwch busnes? business activity? (OAQ26320) (OAQ26320)

The First Minister (Rhodri Morgan): The Y Prif Weinidog (Rhodri Morgan): Mae Assembly Government’s economic strategaeth datblygu economaidd development strategy, ‘A Winning Wales’, Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, ‘Cymru’n Ennill’, identifies how we intend to nurture new yn nodi sut y bwriadwn hybu’r gwaith o business development and business ddatblygu busnesau newydd ac ehangu expansion throughout Wales, with priority busnesau ledled Cymru, gan roi blaenoriaeth given to the south Wales Valleys. This area i Gymoedd y De. Mae’r ardal hon yn qualifies for maximum levels of assistance. gymwys i gael y lefelau uchaf o gymorth. Er The Welsh Assembly Government has, since 1999, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi 1999, supported 412 regional selective cefnogi 412 o brosiectau drwy gymorth assistance and Assembly investment grant rhanbarthol dewisol a grant buddsoddi’r projects, worth more than £155 million, in Cynulliad, sy’n werth mwy na £155 miliwn, the five local authorities of the eastern south yn y pum awdurdod lleol yn nwyrain Wales Valleys. These projects are expected Cymoedd y De. Disgwylir y bydd y to create and safeguard over 17,000 jobs. It is prosiectau hynny’n creu ac yn diogelu mwy more difficult in the Bridgend County na 17,000 o swyddi. Mae’n anos dweud am Borough Council, Neath Port Talbot County ardaloedd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y- Borough Council and Carmarthenshire bont ar Ogwr, Cyngor Bwrdeistref Castell- County Council areas, as they are not entirely nedd Port Talbot a Chyngor Sir Gaerfyrddin, valley areas—they are a mixture of valleys gan nad ydynt yn gymoedd i gyd—maent yn and coast. However, you could probably add gymysgedd o gymoedd ac arfordir—. Fodd another 50 per cent to the figures that I have bynnag, mae’n debyg y gellid ychwanegu 50 just quoted. The unemployment claimant y cant arall at y ffigurau yr wyf newydd eu count has fallen sharply in the south Wales dyfynnu. Bu gostyngiad sylweddol yn nifer Valleys since 1999. The economic activity yr hawlwyr budd-dal diweithdra yng rate has improved even more. Nghymoedd y De er 1999. Mae cyfradd gweithgarwch economaidd wedi gwella’n fwy byth.

Janice Gregory: Thank you for that positive Janice Gregory: Diolch i chi am yr ymateb response. In the wake of the Bevan cadarnhaol hwnnw. Yn sgîl adroddiad Foundation’s ‘Ambitions for the Future’ Sefydliad Bevan, ‘Ambitions for the Future’, report, does the Government intend to a yw’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu cyflwyno introduce a specific initiative for town and menter benodol ar gyfer adfywio canol trefi a village centre regeneration? To press you phentrefi? A phwyso ymhellach arnoch ar further on a point that I raised a few weeks bwynt a godais ychydig wythnosau’n ôl, a ago, will the Government and the Welsh wnaiff y Llywodraeth ac Awdurdod Datblygu Development Agency consider what can be Cymru ystyried beth y gellir ei wneud i ategu done to complement UK initiatives, such as mentrau’r DU, fel diddymu’r dreth stamp ar the abolition of stamp duty on business adeiladau busnes yn y wardiau lleiaf premises in the least prosperous wards? llewyrchus?

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The First Minister: These two things work Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r ddau beth hyn yn together: if you can generate more business gweithio gyda’i gilydd: os gellir creu mwy o exchanges by abolishing stamp duty in drafodion busnes drwy ddiddymu’r dreth relevant areas—and many Welsh wards stamp mewn ardaloedd perthnasol—ac mae qualify for stamp duty exemption—it fits in llawer o wardiau yng Nghymru yn gymwys with local regeneration activities funded i’w heithrio rhag y dreth stamp—mae’n cyd- directly by the Government. In that way, the fynd â gweithgareddau adfywio lleol y mae’r phenomenon of boarded-up shops in areas Llywodraeth yn eu cyllido’n uniongyrchol. affected by a combination of the attractions Yn y modd hwnnw, gellir ymdrin â’r of big towns on the coast and of out-of-town ffenomen o siopau â’u ffenestri dan goed shopping centres, can be addressed. This is mewn ardaloedd a effeithir gan y cyfuniad o not just about the incomes that are earned in atyniadau’r trefi mawr ar yr arfordir a factories, but also about trying to regenerate chanolfannau siopa y tu allan i’r dref. Mae life in towns. People feel more confident hyn yn ymwneud â cheisio adfywio trefi yn about the future of their communities when ogystal â’r incwm a enillir mewn ffatrïoedd. they see boards being taken down from shops Mae pobl yn teimlo’n fwy hyderus ynghylch to be replaced by retail premises, or former dyfodol eu cymunedau pan welant y retail premises being put to other uses. byrddau’n cael eu tynnu oddi ar siopau ac adeiladau adwerthu’n dod yn eu lle, neu hen adeiladau adwerthu yn cael eu defnyddio at ddibenion eraill.

Janet Davies: Despite what you have said, Janet Davies: Er gwaethaf yr hyn a the Objective 1 mid-term evaluation has ddywedasoch, mae gwerthusiad canol tymor shown that only 15 per cent of the jobs Amcan 1 wedi dangos mai dim ond 15 y cant promised for the Objective 1 area have been o’r swyddi a addawyd ar gyfer ardal Amcan created to date. The latest employment 1 sydd wedi’u creu hyd yma. Dengys y figures demonstrate that 80 per cent of new ffigurau cyflogaeth diweddaraf mai y tu allan jobs created in the last year have been outside i ardal Amcan 1 y crëwyd 80 y cant o’r the Objective 1 area. Do you accept that the swyddi newydd yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. A Government must be more proactive in ydych yn derbyn bod rhaid i’r Llywodraeth leading the way on job creation? Following fod yn fwy rhagweithiol wrth arwain y ffordd on from Janice Gregory’s point about villages ar greu swyddi? Gan ddilyn y pwynt a and communities, should not the Government wnaeth Janice Gregory am bentrefi a lead the way with significant public sector chymunedau, oni ddylai’r Llywodraeth investment in the Objective 1 area? arwain y ffordd gan wneud buddsoddiad sector cyhoeddus sylweddol yn ardal Amcan 1?

The First Minister: I understand that the Y Prif Weinidog: Deallaf fod yr adroddiad draft evaluation report on the past two-and-a- gwerthuso drafft ar y ddwy flynedd a hanner half or two-and-three-quarter years of neu ddwy flynedd a thri chwarter diwethaf o Objective 1 activity was constructively weithgarwch Amcan 1 wedi’i drafod yn discussed by representatives at Friday’s adeiladol ddydd Gwener gan gynrychiolwyr Objective 1 Programme Monitoring yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglen Committee meeting, which included Amcan 1, a oedd yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr representatives of your party. The report is o’ch plaid chi. Mae’r adroddiad ar ffurf drafft still in draft form, and it is important that we o hyd, ac mae’n bwysig inni warchod protect the integrity of the independent uniondeb y system gwerthuso annibynnol. evaluation system. We strongly believe in Credwn yn gryf mewn llywodraeth ar sail evidence-based government and in tystiolaeth ac mewn gwerthuso annibynnol. independent evaluation. I understand that the Deallaf y bydd yr adroddiad drafft yn draft report will become a fully-fledged ddogfen gyflawn ymhen ychydig fisoedd. Fy document in a few months’ time. My initial ymateb cyntaf i’r adroddiad yn The Western

4 01/07/2003 reaction to the story in The Western Mail on Mail am y pwnc hwn oedd mai ysgrifennu this issue was that it was over-hyped writing wedi’i orliwio ydoedd am adroddiad arferol about a standard independent evaluation ar werthuso annibynnol. Gwnawn warchod report. We will always protect the integrity of uniondeb y broses gwerthuso annibynnol bob the independent evaluation process, so I do amser, felly ni ddymunaf ddweud gormod am not want to say too much on this issue. y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, dywedwyd yn yr However, the story said that 15 per cent of adroddiad fod 15 y cant o’r arian wedi’i the money had been spent, and that 15 per wario, a bod 15 y cant o’r swyddi cent of the expected jobs had been created; I disgwyliedig wedi’u creu; ni welais unrhyw saw no reason for treating that as a shock- reswm dros drin hynny fel pe bai’n syndod. horror story.

Alun Cairns: Does this not demonstrate Alun Cairns: Onid yw hyn yn dangos how much of a disaster Objective 1 has been cymaint o drychineb y bu Amcan 1 hyd yma? to date? Only 15 per cent of the jobs that Ni chrëwyd ond 15 y cant o’r swyddi y dylid should have been created have been created, bod wedi’u creu, ac yr ydym bron hanner y and we are almost halfway through the ffordd drwy’r rhaglen. Onid yw’n bryd ichi programme. Is it not time for you to accept dderbyn mai strategaeth ddiffygiol a that it was a flawed strategy and a flawed strwythur diffygiol ydoedd, ac mai trychineb structure, and that its implementation has fu’r dull o’i weithredu? been a disaster?

The First Minister: That is a classic Y Prif Weinidog: Mae hynny’n enghraifft example of jumping up and down to see to glasurol o gynhyrfu er mwyn gweld i ba what extent you can create some bad news raddau y gallwch greu ychydig o newyddion out of good news. There was no such drwg o newyddion da. Nid oedd unrhyw implication in the independent evaluation ensyniad o’r fath yn yr adroddiad gwerthuso report. It is a balanced document, which is annibynnol. Mae’n ddogfen gytbwys, sydd ar currently in draft form. We will read the ffurf drafft ar hyn o bryd. Darllenwn y document in full when we get the final ddogfen gyfan pan gawn y fersiwn terfynol. version. There was a mature discussion, if I Bu trafodaeth aeddfed yng nghyfarfod y can put it that way to you, Alun, in the vain Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglen Amcan 1 ddydd hope that you might learn something, in the Gwener diwethaf, os gallaf ei gyfleu felly i Objective 1 Programme Monitoring chi, Alun, yn gobaith ofer y byddech yn Committee meeting last Friday. Let us hope dysgu rhywbeth. Gadewch inni obeithio y that those who are actively engaged in this bydd y rhai sy’n ymwneud yn weithgar â hyn and who are not trying to make political nad ydynt yn ceisio gwneud elw gwleidyddol capital out of it continue to treat this ohono yn dal i drafod y mater yn aeddfed. maturely. That happened on a cross-party Digwyddodd hynny ar draws y pleidiau, a basis, and with other stakeholders who were chyda rhanddeiliaid eraill nad oeddent yn not party-political representatives, last cynrychioli pleidiau gwleidyddol, ddydd Friday. Gwener diwethaf.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Democrat Group (Michael German): I am Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Michael German): sure that you will agree that a well-educated Yr wyf yn sicr y cytunwch ei bod yn workforce is essential to attracting businesses hollbwysig cael gweithlu a addysgwyd yn to south Wales. The imposition of tuition dda er mwyn denu busnesau i’r De. Mae fees, and even more so, top-up fees, is a gorfodi ffioedd dysgu, ac yn fwy byth, significant barrier to young people from the ffioedd ychwanegol, yn gryn rwystr i bobl south Wales Valleys who want to enter ifanc o Gymoedd y De sy’n dymuno mynd i higher education. Can you inform us of the addysg uwch. A allwch roi gwybod inni am progress of your discussions with the hynt eich trafodaethau ag Ysgrifennydd Secretary of State for Wales in securing the Gwladol Cymru wrth sicrhau’r pŵer a’r power and the funding to kick top-up fees cyllid i allu bwrw ffioedd ychwanegol o’r

5 01/07/2003 into touch for good, or has the Secretary of neilltu am byth, neu a fu’r Ysgrifennydd State been too busy as Leader of the House of Gwladol yn rhy brysur fel Arweinydd Tŷ’r Commons to deal with this, because he has a Cyffredin i ddelio â hyn, am mai swydd ran part-time job for Wales? amser dros Gymru sydd ganddo?

The First Minister: That was an Y Prif Weinidog: Yr oedd hwnnw’n unnecessary tailpiece to an otherwise well- ychwanegiad diangen i’r hyn a oedd fel arall placed, intelligent and well-structured yn gwestiwn amserol, deallus a threfnus. Mae question. Negotiations are continuing and negodiadau’n parhau ac mae Jane Davidson Jane Davidson has written to Alan Johnson, wedi ysgrifennu at Alan Johnson, y the new Minister of State responsible for Gweinidog Gwladol newydd sydd â higher education who has succeeded chyfrifoldeb dros addysg uwch ac olynydd Margaret Hodge, to pursue our agenda of Margaret Hodge, i ddilyn ein hagenda o proposed devolution of student support. We gynnig y caiff cyfrifoldeb am gymorth i have not received his reply yet. We are fyfyrwyr ei ddatganoli. Ni chawsom ateb continuing to negotiate, while we also ganddo eto. Yr ydym yn dal i negodi, tra ein continue to bottom-out what the financial bod hefyd yn dal i fynd at wraidd y implications are. This is one of those areas goblygiadau ariannol. Dyma un o’r meysydd where it is incredibly difficult to quantify lle y mae’n anhygoel o anodd mesur yr hyn a what is going to happen in terms of the fydd yn digwydd o ran niferoedd y myfyrwyr numbers of students who will be crossing the a fydd yn croesi’r ffin yn y ddau gyfeiriad yn border in both directions in 2007. You 2007. Gwnaethoch gyfeirio at y pwynt referred to the fundamental point: it is strange sylfaenol: mae’n rhyfedd ac yn baradocsaidd and paradoxical that the people who are most mai’r bobl a gaiff eu troi fwyaf oddi wrth put off higher education by tuition fees are addysg uwch gan ffioedd dysgu yw’r rhai na the ones who would probably not have to pay fyddai’n gorfod eu talu beth bynnag, yn ôl them anyway because of means testing. We pob tebyg, oherwydd y prawf moddion. have done our best through the Assembly Gwnaethom ein gorau drwy grant dysgu’r learning grant to sweep away the long- Cynulliad i chwalu’r gwahaniaeth hirsefydlog standing distinction between further and rhwng addysg bellach ac addysg uwch, sy’n higher education, which is a major step gam mawr ymlaen, ond nid yw’n datrys forward, but it does not solve the problem of problem ffioedd hyfforddi. Gobeithiaf y tuition fees. I hope that we will be able to byddwn yn gallu dod yn ôl at hynny pan return to that when we know whether wyddom a fydd Araith y Frenhines yn legislation in the Queen’s Speech will include cynnwys deddfwriaeth i drosglwyddo’r a transfer of responsibility to us. cyfrifoldeb i ni.

Brian Gibbons: First Minister, do you not Brian Gibbons: Brif Weinidog, oni agree that Alun Cairns’s negative reaction to chytunwch fod ymateb negyddol Alun Cairns Objective 1 explains why the Conservatives i Amcan 1 yn egluro pam na chafodd y did not deliver Objective 1 for Wales, and Ceidwadwyr Amcan 1 i Gymru, a pham na why they did not deliver extra European chawsant gyllid Ewropeaidd ychwanegol i funding for Wales? Their proposed 20 per Gymru? Ni fydd eu toriad arfaethedig o 20 y cent cut in public expenditure will not deliver cant mewn gwariant cyhoeddus yn dod â’r the match-funding that is necessary to ensure arian cyfatebol sydd ei angen i sicrhau that Objective 1 succeeds. llwyddiant Amcan 1.

The First Minister: They had the Y Prif Weinidog: Cawsant gyfle a opportunity and they chose not to take it, and dewisasant beidio â’i gymryd, ac mae rhai some here follow the Redwood tradition yma’n dilyn traddodiad Redwood yn well nag better than others. John Redwood had the eraill. Cafodd John Redwood y cyfle ond opportunity but decided, ‘no thank you, no penderfynodd, ‘dim diolch, dim Amcan 1 i Objective 1 for Wales’. Gymru’.

Elin Jones: A dderbyniwch fod yn rhaid i’ch Elin Jones: Do you accept that your

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Llywodraeth gymryd cyfrifoldeb am y ffaith Government must take responsibility for the bod 80 y cant o swyddi newydd a grëir yng fact that 80 per cent of the new jobs created Nghymru yn dal i gael eu creu y tu allan i in Wales continue to be created outside the ardal Amcan 1? Mae hyn yn adlewyrchiad Objective 1 area? This is symptomatic of the o’r ffaith y bu gweithredu Amcan 1 yn rhy fact that the implementation of Objective 1 araf ac yn rhy gymhleth. Er y buddsoddwyd was too slow and too complex. Although yn ardal Amcan 1, nid yw eich Llywodraeth there is investment in the Objective 1 area, yn targedu adnoddau a buddsoddiad yn yr your Government is not targeting resources ardaloedd o fewn ardal Amcan 1 ag arnynt and investment at the areas within the angen y gefnogaeth fwyaf. Objective 1 area that need most support.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae 75 y cant o’r cwymp The First Minister: Seventy-five per cent of mewn diweithdra wedi digwydd yn ardal the fall in unemployment has occurred in Amcan 1 Cymru, a dim ond 65 y cant o’r Wales’s Objective 1 area, and only 65 per boblogaeth sydd yn byw yno. Gallwch weld y cent of the population lives there. You can budd a ddaeth yn sgîl Amcan 1 a pholisïau see the benefits of Objective 1 and other eraill a luniwyd gennym ni a Llywodraeth policies formulated by ourselves and the San Steffan, gan eu bod wedi gwasgu ar Westminster Government, in cutting ddiweithdra a darparu cyfleoedd newydd. unemployment and by providing new Mae hyn yn gweithio, ac yn gweithio’n well opportunities. This is working, and it is yn ardal Amcan 1, neu ni fyddem wedi gweld working more effectively in the Objective 1 y gwymp honno sydd yn fwy yn ardal Amcan area, or that fall, which is greater in the 1—yr oedd angen mwy o gwymp yno. Bu Objective 1 area—a greater fall was needed cwymp o 75 y cant mewn diweithdra yn ardal there—would not have happened. A 75 per Amcan 1, a dim ond 65 y cant o’r boblogaeth cent fall in unemployment has occurred in the sy’n byw yno. Objective 1 area, and only 65 per cent of the population lives there.

Y Strategaeth ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn The Older People’s Strategy

Q2 Sandy Mewies: Would the First Minister C2 Sandy Mewies: A wnaiff y Prif make a statement on the implementation of Weinidog ddatganiad ar y modd y the older people’s strategy in the constituency gweithredir y strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn yn of Delyn? (OAQ26338) etholaeth Delyn? (OAQ26338)

The First Minister: The creation of a Y Prif Weinidog: Mae creu cronfa o £100,000 fund to help voluntary transport £100,000 i roi cymorth i gynlluniau schemes in Wales, including in the trafnidiaeth gwirfoddol yng Nghymru, gan constituency of Delyn, is an innovative part gynnwys etholaeth Delyn, yn rhan arloesol of the older people’s strategy. The o’r strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn. Mae’r Community Transport Association runs the Gymdeithas Trafnidiaeth Gymunedol yn scheme on our behalf. Grants of up to rhedeg y cynllun ar ein rhan. Mae grantiau o £15,000 are available towards the costs of hyd at £15,000 ar gael tuag at gostau community transport projects. There are no prosiectau trafnidiaeth gymunedol. Nid oes restrictions on the types of projects, but they cyfyngiadau ar y mathau o brosiectau, ond must accord with the strategy for older rhaid iddynt fod yn gyson â’r strategaeth ar people and local authority community gyfer pobl hŷn a strategaethau trafnidiaeth transport strategies. The closing date for gymunedol awdurdodau lleol. Y dyddiad cau applications was 31 May, and applications ar gyfer ceisiadau oedd 31 Mai, ac mae’r total more than £300,000. The Community ceisiadau’n gwneud cyfanswm o fwy na Transport Association hopes to make £300,000. Mae’r Gymdeithas Trafnidiaeth decisions in August. Like you, I am sure, I Gymunedol yn gobeithio gwneud hope that applications were made from Delyn penderfyniadau yn Awst. Yr wyf yn siŵr y and that they will be among the successful byddech yn cytuno â fy ngobaith bod

7 01/07/2003 applications. ceisiadau wedi dod o Ddelyn ac y byddant ymysg y rhai llwyddiannus.

2.10 p.m.

Sandy Mewies: I know that you share my Sandy Mewies: Gwn eich bod yn rhannu fy concerns about older people and the problems mhryderon ynghylch pobl hŷn a’r problemau that they face with regard to housing. a wynebant gyda thai. Mae gwaith trwsio, Homeowners can find that repairs, large gerddi mawr a dringo grisiau’n gallu mynd gardens and stairs become too much for them yn ormod i berchnogion tai wrth iddynt as they age. On occasion, such problems have heneiddio. Mewn rhai achosion, mae contributed to people having to move into problemau o’r fath wedi gorfodi pobl i symud residential care when, with a little extra i ofal preswyl, er y gallent, o gael ychydig o support, they could have remained in the gymorth ychwanegol, fod wedi aros yn y community. I welcome the fact that the gymuned. Croesawaf y ffaith y bydd Welsh Assembly Government will conduct a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cynnal wide-ranging debate on the future housing dadl gynhwysfawr yn y misoedd nesaf ar needs of older people over the coming anghenion tai pobl hŷn yn y dyfodol. A months. Do you also welcome the fact that ydych hefyd yn croesawu’r ffaith y bydd y this important cross-cutting issue will be mater trawsbynciol pwysig hwn yn cael ei examined by the Social Justice and ystyried gan y Pwyllgor Cyfiawnder Regeneration Committee, with the aim of Cymdeithasol ac Adfywio, gyda’r bwriad o contributing to the Government’s debate and gyfrannu at ddadl y Llywodraeth a chynnig to providing practical, positive solutions to atebion cadarnhaol ac ymarferol i’r these problems? problemau hyn?

The First Minister: I agree that maintaining Y Prif Weinidog: Cytunaf ei bod yn bwysig the independence of older people—whether cynnal annibyniaeth pobl hŷn—pa un a ydynt they are homeowners or tenants—is yn berchnogion cartrefi neu’n denantiaid—fel important, so that they can stay in their y gallant aros yn eu cartrefi cyhyd ag y bo homes for as long as possible despite the modd er gwaethaf y problemau cynyddol y increasing problems that they may have in gallent eu profi o ran dringo ysgolion ac yn y getting up ladders and so on. I am pleased blaen. Yr wyf yn falch bod Edwina Hart, y that Edwina Hart, the Minister for Social Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ac Justice and Regeneration—although she did Adfywio—er nad oedd y teitl hwnnw ganddi not have that title at the time—agreed ar y pryd—wedi cytuno ar gyllid pellach o enhanced funding of almost £3.5 million for ymron i £3.5 miliwn ar gyfer gwasanaethau care and repair services for this financial gofal a thrwsio am y flwyddyn ariannol hon. year. There are 24 care and repair agencies in Mae 24 o asiantaethau gofal a thrwsio yng Wales and they enable older people to remain Nghymru ac maent yn galluogi pobl hŷn i in their homes for longer, by tackling the aros yn eu cartrefi’n hwy, drwy ymdrin â’r issues that you mentioned. materion y cyfeiriasoch atynt.

Mark Isherwood: The strategy for older Mark Isherwood: Mae’r strategaeth ar gyfer people in Wales rightly states that older pobl hŷn yng Nghymru’n datgan yn briodol people in Wales have the right to live fod hawl gan bobl hŷn yng Nghymru i fyw’n independently and with dignity. It also states annibynnol a chydag urddas. Dywed hefyd that a partnership approach involving older fod rhaid gweithredu drwy bartneriaeth sy’n people, the voluntary sector, the private cynnwys pobl hŷn, y sector gwirfoddol, y sector, and others, must be followed. I am sector preifat, ac eraill. Yr wyf yn siŵr ein sure that we all agree with that. However, bod oll yn cytuno â hynny. Fodd bynnag, sut how does the First Minister square that with y mae’r Prif Weinidog yn cysoni hynny â’r the exclusion of Flintshire’s voluntary sector ffaith bod sector gwirfoddol Sir y Fflint from the local crime and disorder partnership, wedi’i gau allan o’r bartneriaeth troseddu ac and with the statement made by the manager anhrefn leol, ac â’r datganiad gan reolwr

8 01/07/2003 of Flintshire Local Voluntary Council at its Cyngor Gwirfoddol Lleol Sir y Fflint yn ei annual general meeting on 20 June that the gyfarfod blynyddol cyffredinol ar 20 Mehefin partnerships are not true partnerships because nad yw’r partneriaethau’n wir bartneriaethau they have not gone through the process of am nad aethant drwy’r broses o gytuno ar eu agreeing what they are about? How does he pwrpas? Sut y mae’n cysoni hynny â’r ffaith square it with the fact that 30 per cent of care bod 30 y cant o’r gwelyau gofal wedi’u colli beds have been lost in north-east Wales and yn y Gogledd-ddwyrain a’r ffaith bod ar with the fact that pensioners in towns such as bensiynwyr mewn trefi fel Treffynnon ofn Holywell are afraid to go out after dark? How mynd allan wedi iddi nosi? Sut y mae’n does he square it with the inadequate cysoni hynny â’r partneriaethau annigonol â partnerships with registered social landlords landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig er over the provision of care for the elderly in mwyn darparu gofal yn y gymuned i’r the community, and with the cuts in rural bus henoed, a chyda’r toriadau mewn services after free bus passes were gwasanaethau bysiau gwledig ar ôl cyflwyno introduced? That denies pensioners the tocynnau bws am ddim? Mae hynny’n nacáu dignity and independence that they want and i bensiynwyr yr urddas a’r annibyniaeth y deserve. maent yn eu dymuno a’u haeddu.

The First Minister: You paint an overly Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych yn creu darlun depressing picture. The overwhelming rhy ddigalon. Yr ymateb llethol gan grwpiau reaction from pensioners’ groups in Wales pensiynwyr yng Nghymru oedd dweud mor has been to say how wonderful the greater braf ydoedd bod rhagor o wasanaethau bws availability of bus services is since the ar gael iddynt ers cyflwyno tocynnau bws am introduction of free bus passes. That has ddim. Bu hynny’n sylfaen i ddarparu rhagor o provided a backbone for the provision of wasanaethau bws. Ynghylch pensiynwyr yn more bus services. On pensioners not going peidio â mynd allan wedi iddi nosi, mae out after dark, that is a matter for the local hynny’n fater i’r bartneriaeth lleihau troseddu crime reduction partnership. I have not heard leol. Ni chlywais am yr adroddiad gan of the report from Flintshire County Council swyddogion o Gyngor Sir y Fflint na officials or the Flintshire voluntary sector phartneriaeth sector gwirfoddol sir y Fflint. partnership. If you could supply me with a Os gallech roi copi i mi, rhoddaf ateb manwl copy, I will give you a detailed reply. i chi.

Hyrwyddo Cysylltiadau ag Ewrop Promoting Links with Europe

Q3 Brian Gibbons: What progress is being C3 Brian Gibbons: Pa gamau sy’n cael eu made in promoting bilateral links with cymryd i hyrwyddo’r cysylltiadau smaller European countries and regions? dwyochrog â gwledydd a rhanbarthau llai yn (OAQ26322) Ewrop? (OAQ26322)

The First Minister: We signed a Y Prif Weinidog: Gwnaethom lofnodi memorandum of understanding with Silesia memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth â Silesia in October 2002. I will accompany a trade yn Hydref 2002. Byddaf yn mynd gydag mission to Estonia and Latvia in September. ymgyrch fasnach i Estonia a Latfia ym Medi. Also, as I think that you will know, as I have Hefyd, fel y gwyddoch, mi gredaf, gan fy mentioned it previously, the Welsh mod wedi sôn am hyn o’r blaen, mae Development Agency has won a twinning- Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru wedi ennill like contract to assist a region of the Czech contract tebyg i efeillio er mwyn cynorthwyo Republic with problems similar to those of rhanbarth yn y Weriniaeth Tsiec sydd â some of the former coalfields in Wales in phroblemau tebyg i eiddo’r cyn feysydd glo terms of brownfield regeneration. We are yng Nghymru o ran adfywio ar dir llwyd. Yr working on many issues with either regions ydym yn gweithio ar lawer o faterion, un ai of some of the large new EU accession states gyda rhanbarthau rhai o’r gwladwriaethau such as Poland or the Czech Republic, or mawr sydd newydd ymuno â’r UE fel Gwlad

9 01/07/2003 directly with some of the accession states that Pwyl a’r Weriniaeth Tsiec, neu’n are the same size as, or smaller than, Wales, uniongyrchol gyda rhai o’r gwladwriaethau such as Estonia and Latvia. sy’n ymuno sydd o’r un maint, neu’n llai na, Chymru, fel Estonia a Latfia.

Brian Gibbons: There are many positive Brian Gibbons: Mae llawer o enghreifftiau examples of the bilaterial links that the Welsh cadarnhaol o’r cysylltiadau dwyochrog y mae Assembly Government is developing with Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n eu meithrin regard to the issues that you mentioned, and yngylch y materion y cyfeiriasoch atynt, a also in relation to health, social care, hefyd ynghylch iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol, education and so on. Do we need to bring addysg ac yn y blaen. A oes angen inni ddod these together in a more coherent, strategic â’r rhain at ei gilydd mewn modd mwy way to promote Wales more holistically cydlynol a strategol er mwyn hyrwyddo across Europe and the world? Cymru’n fwy cyfannol ledled Ewrop a thrwy’r byd?

The First Minister: We cannot run before Y Prif Weinidog: Rhaid cropian cyn we can walk. I have brought forward the cerdded. Yr wyf wedi dwyn ger eich bron y issue of what links we should make, either mater o’r cysylltiadau y dylem eu creu, un ai with the small states when they become EU gyda’r gwladwriaethau bach pan ddeuant yn member states—as everyone assumes that aelod-wladwriaethau o’r UE—fel y mae they will by the time of the European pawb yn cymryd y byddant erbyn yr elections next year—or with the regions etholiadau Ewropeaidd y flwyddyn nesaf— within the larger new member states. We are neu gyda rhanbarthau yn yr aelod- working hard on that. wladwriaethau newydd mwy. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n galed ar hynny.

It is not all about fostering links with the Nid meithrin cysylltiadau â’r gwladwriaethau states to be included in the enlargement of the sydd i’w cynnwys wrth i’r Undeb European Union, although we are prioritising Ewropeaidd ehangu yw’r unig beth dan sylw, those states. We also have links with regions er ein bod yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i’r of existing member states, such as Baden gwladwriaethau hynny. Mae gennym Württemburg and Catalonia, which I visited gysylltiadau hefyd â rhanbarthau aelod- recently. We also have natural cultural links wladwriaethau presennol, megis Baden with Brittany: the President of the Regional Württemburg a Chatalonia, yr ymwelais â Council of Brittany, Josselin de Rohan, paid hwy’n ddiweddar. Mae gennym gysylltiadau a good-will visit to Wales recently, and I diwylliannol naturiol hefyd â Llydaw: daeth hope to undertake a reciprocal visit soon. Llywydd Cyngor Rhanbarthol Llydaw, Josselin de Rohan, ar ymweliad ewyllys da â Chymru’n ddiweddar, a gobeithiaf ymgymryd ag ymweliad tebyg cyn hir.

Ultimately, you must have a strategy, and Yn y pen draw, rhaid wrth strategaeth, a’r un ours is to link with those states where we can sydd gennym ni yw cysylltu â’r do good, promote trade, bring in students, gwladwriaethau hynny lle y gallwn wneud win contracts and so forth, or to make links lles, hyrwyddo masnach, denu myfyrwyr, where there are natural cultural connections, ennill contractau ac yn y blaen, neu ffurfio such as with Brittany. perthynas lle y mae cysylltiadau diwylliannol naturiol, fel y rhai â Llydaw.

Laura Anne Jones: First Minister, I agree Laura Anne Jones: Brif Weinidog, cytunaf that it is important for Wales that we develop ei bod yn bwysig i Gymru ein bod yn links with other European countries, whether meithrin cysylltiadau â gwledydd eraill yn they are bilateral or otherwise. However, Ewrop, byddent hwy’n rhai dwyochrog neu your Government seems to be squandering fel arall. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys bod eich

10 01/07/2003 millions of pounds on mini-embassies around Llywodraeth yn afradu miliynau o bunnoedd Europe and on pointless projects like the ar lysgenadaethau bach o gwmpas Ewrop ac palace for politicians that you want to place ar brosiectau dibwrpas fel y palas i in the bay. It is no wonder that voter apathy is wleidyddion yr ydych am ei godi yn y bae. so bad in Wales, when you plough money Nid oes ryfedd bod cymaint o ddifaterwch into projects to satisfy your egos instead of ymysg pleidleiswyr yng Nghymru, a investing in our failing public services. Last chithau’n arllwys arian i brosiectau sy’n year, there was talk of establishing six of porthi eich balchder yn hytrach na buddsoddi these so-called Welsh embassies around the yn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus diffygiol. Y world. You stated that you would like more, llynedd, yr oedd sôn am sefydlu chwech o but that this is all we can afford. lysgenadaethau i Gymru, fel y’u gelwir, o gwmpas y byd. Dywedasoch y byddai’n well gennych gael rhagor, ond mai hyn yw’r cwbl y gallwn ei fforddio.

The Presiding Officer: Order. I am reluctant Y Llywydd: Trefn. Yr wyf yn gyndyn o dorri to interrupt new Members, but it is ar draws Aelodau newydd, ond amhriodol yw inappropriate to quote other Members dyfynnu geiriau Aelodau eraill heb ofyn without asking a question. Please ask a cwestiwn. Gofynnwch gwestiwn, os gwelwch question. yn dda.

Laura Anne Jones: Sorry, Presiding Officer. Laura Anne Jones: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, First Minister, how many more embassies are Lywydd. Brif Weinidog, pa sawl you planning to waste Welsh taxpayers’ llysgenhadaeth yn rhagor yr ydych yn money on? bwriadu gwastraffu arian trethdalwyr Cymru arnynt?

The First Minister: Laura, you seem to be Y Prif Weinidog: Laura, ymddengys eich suggesting a principle that anyone associated bod yn awgrymu egwyddor y byddai rhywun with the words ‘embassies’ or ‘mini- sy’n gysylltiedig â’r geiriau embassies’ has an over-sized ego. If so, ‘llysgenadaethau’ neu ‘lysgenadaethau bach’ David Davies would not have been able to â chanddo ben mawr. Os felly, ni fyddai walk through the door 10 minutes ago, David Davies wedi gallu cerdded drwy’r because he is the only Member who has ever drws 10 munud yn ôl, gan mai ef yw’r unig mentioned them. Let us be clear about that: Aelod sydd erioed wedi sôn amdanynt. the only Assembly Member associated with Gadewch inni fod yn glir am hynny: yr unig embassies is the Member for Monmouth. If Aelod o’r Cynulliad sy’n gysylltiedig â there is a problem over egos and embassies, llysgenadaethau yw’r Aelod dros Fynwy. Os ask your colleague, whose constituent you oes problem ynghylch hunanfalchder a are. llysgenadaethau, gofynnwch i’ch cyd-Aelod, yr ydych yn un o’i etholwyr.

Cau Swyddfeydd Post Post Offices Closures

Q4 Mick Bates: Will the First Minister make C4 Mick Bates: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog a statement on the Welsh Assembly ddatganiad ar ymdrechion Llywodraeth Government’s efforts to protect post offices Cynulliad Cymru i amddiffyn swyddfeydd in Wales from closure? (OAQ26347) post yng Nghymru rhag gorfod cau? (OAQ26347)

The First Minister: The Assembly Y Prif Weinidog: Mae Llywodraeth y Government recognises that post offices Cynulliad yn cydnabod bod swyddfeydd post provide a lifeline for many local yn cynnal llawer o gymunedau lleol, ac yn communities, and wishes to maintain a viable dymuno cynnal rhwydwaith dichonadwy

11 01/07/2003 network throughout Wales. That is why we ledled Cymru. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi have launched the post office development lansio cronfa datblygu swyddfeydd post ac fund and have extended the rural rate relief wedi ehangu’r cynllun rhyddhad ardrethi scheme, to help ensure that disadvantaged gwledig, i helpu i sicrhau y bydd cymunedau communities continue to receive post office difreintiedig yn dal i gael gwasanaethau services. swyddfa bost.

Mick Bates: I do not doubt that good work is Mick Bates: Nid wyf yn amau na wneir being undertaken. However, do you agree gwaith da. Er hynny, a gytunwch fod llawer o that many pensioners have been discouraged bensiynwyr wedi’u hannog i beidio â from using their local post offices by the defnyddio eu swyddfeydd post lleol drwy’r Government’s actions in changing the camau a gymerodd y Llywodraeth o ran method of collecting pensions? Pensioners newid y dull o gasglu pensiynau? Byddai’n would prefer to continue using their familiar well gan bensiynwyr barhau i ddefnyddio’r pension books rather than use plastic cards llyfrau pensiwn y maent yn gyfarwydd â hwy and personal identification numbers. yn hytrach na defnyddio cardiau plastig a rhifau adnabod personol.

The First Minister: I have heard that point Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf wedi clywed y of view put, but the Government has made an farn honno, ond mae’r Llywodraeth wedi irrevocable decision to transfer benefits gwneud penderfyniad terfynol i drosglwyddo directly into bank accounts. The Government budd-daliadau’n uniongyrchol i gyfrifon believes that it will cost around a twentieth of banc. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn credu y bydd what a direct Giro payment costs, or some hynny’n costio tuag un rhan o ugain o gost such sharp distinction. Therefore, I do not talu’n uniongyrchol drwy Giro, neu ryw think that it will go back on its decision. wahaniaeth pendant o’r fath. Gan hynny, ni Instead, it will try to allow post offices time chredaf y gwnaiff ailystyried ei to adapt to the great loss of business, which phenderfyniad. Yn lle hynny, bydd yn ceisio could amount to as much as 70 per cent in caniatáu amser i swyddfeydd post ymaddasu areas with a population mostly dependent on i’r colli mawr ar fusnes, a allai fod yn pensions or other welfare payments. It is a gymaint â 70 y cant mewn ardaloedd lle y big blow to some post offices. The UK and mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r boblogaeth yn dibynnu the Assembly Governments are helping post ar bensiynau neu fudd-daliadau eraill. Mae’n offices to get over that hump and into a new ergyd fawr i rai swyddfeydd post. Mae field of activity by providing a new range of Llywodraeth y DU a’r Cynulliad yn helpu services without going back on the decision swyddfeydd post i oresgyn y rhwystr hwnnw to pay benefits directly into bank accounts. ac i ymhél â gweithgarwch amgen drwy ddarparu amrediad newydd o wasanaethau, heb newid y penderfyniad i dalu budd- daliadau’n uniongyrchol i gyfrifon banc.

Peter Law: First Minister, will you enter into Peter Law: Brif Weinidog, a wnewch chi discussions with the Royal Mail about its gychwyn trafodaethau gyda’r Post Brenhinol regrettable proposal to transfer mail ynghylch ei fwriad anffodus i gludo’r post ar transportation from rail to road? That move y ffyrdd yn hytrach nag ar reilffyrdd? Bydd y will affect the jobs of railway personnel and newid hwnnw’n effeithio ar swyddi staff Royal Mail workers, not to mention the rheilffyrdd a gweithwyr y Post Brenhinol, added congestion that it could mean on the heb sôn am y tagfeydd ychwanegol y gallai roads in Wales. hynny ei olygu ar y ffyrdd yng Nghymru.

The First Minister: Yesterday, Edwina Hart Y Prif Weinidog: Ddoe, anfonodd Edwina sent a letter to Stephen Timms, Minister of Hart lythyr at Stephen Timms, y Gweinidog State for Energy, e-Commerce and Postal Gwladol dros Ynni, e-Fasnach a Services, in which she raised the matter of Gwasanaethau Post, lle y cododd fater y over-dependence on road haulage and the gorddibynnu ar gludiant ar ffyrdd a’r

12 01/07/2003 possibility of congestion in the Midlands. posibilrwydd o dagfeydd yng nghanolbarth That is where the road hub will replace the Lloegr. Dyna lle y bydd y canolbwynt ffyrdd mail train that has been the main way of yn cymryd lle’r trên post a fu’n brif fodd i transporting mail between regions in this gludo post rhwng rhanbarthau yn y wlad hon country for a century or more. am ganrif neu fwy.

Lisa Francis: I am pleased that you Lisa Francis: Yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn recognise that village post offices are a cydnabod bod swyddfeydd post mewn lifeline for local communities. You must also pentrefi’n rhaff achub i gymunedau lleol. be aware that the closure of a post office Rhaid eich bod yn ymwybodol hefyd fod cau often sounds a death-knell for the village swyddfa post yn aml yn seinio cnul concerned. Do you agree that the marwolaeth y pentref dan sylw. A ydych yn classification model used by Post Office Ltd cytuno bod y model dosbarthu y mae to distinguish between urban and rural post Swyddfa’r Post Cyf yn ei ddefnyddio i offices for the purposes of its urban network wahaniaethu rhwng swyddfeydd post reinvention programme is nebulous and gwledig a threfol i ddibenion ei raglen extremely complex? ailddyfeisio rhwydweithiau trefol yn un niwlog a chymhleth dros ben?

2.20 p.m.

The First Minister: I do not have the details Y Prif Weinidog: Nid yw manylion y of that programme with me. I think that the rhaglen honno gennyf. Credaf mai’r diffiniad definition of a rural post office is one that o swyddfa bost wledig yw un sy’n serves a community of less than 3,000 gwasanaethu cymuned o lai na 3,000 o bobl, people, but I am not sure as to how far it must ond nid wyf yn sicr pa mor bell y mae’n rhaid be from a neighbouring community in order iddi fod o gymuned gyfagos i gael ei chyfrif to be classified as being rural. Post offices in yn wledig. Mae swyddfeydd post yn y 125 o Wales’s 125 most deprived and 125 most adrannau etholiadol mwyaf difreintedig a’r isolated electoral divisions are eligible for 125 o adrannau etholiadol mwyaf anghysbell assistance under our post office development yng Nghymru’n gymwys i gael cymorth dan fund. Wherever the line is drawn, there will ein cynllun datblygu swyddfeydd post. Ym always be communities that narrowly miss mhle bynnag y tynnir y llinell, bydd bob the cut, and those who wish that we had amser gymunedau sy’n methu â dod o fewn y drawn the line elsewhere, thus meaning that llinell o drwch blewyn, a rhai y byddai’n dda their post office would be eligible for ganddynt pe baem wedi tynnu’r llinell yn assistance. That is the problem of the shadow rhywle arall, a olygai y byddai eu swyddfa effect and it cannot be escaped, no matter bost yn gymwys i gael cymorth. Dyna how you administer any type of assistance broblem yr effaith gysgod ac nid oes modd ei scheme. You can make a case for shifting the hosgoi, ni waeth sut y gweinyddir unrhyw line, but that only moves the problem; it does fath o gynllun cymorth. Gallwch ddadlau not solve it. We must all continue to promote dros symud y llinell, ond nid yw hynny ond the scheme. We have already assisted eight yn symud y broblem; nid yw’n ei datrys. post offices—in Abertysswg, Bargoed, Rhaid inni barhau i hyrwyddo’r cynllun. Yr Graiglwyd, Gwyddelwern, Llangeitho, ydym eisoes wedi cynorthwyo wyth swyddfa Llangurig, Llanhilleth and Rhosneigr. We bost—yn Abertyswg, Bargod, Graiglwyd, have provided those post offices with Gwyddelwern, Llangeitho, Llangurig, £300,000 in grant. Ten times that amount is Llanhiledd a Rhosneigr. Yr ydym wedi available under the scheme, so many more darparu £300,000 i’r swyddfeydd post hynny post offices can be assisted if we promote the drwy grantiau. Mae deg gwaith y swm scheme. hwnnw ar gael dan y cynllun, felly gellir cynorthwyo llawer o swyddfeydd post yn rhagor os hyrwyddwn y cynllun.

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Ieuan Wyn The Leader of the Opposition (Ieuan Wyn

13 01/07/2003

Jones): Gwrandewais ar eich sylwadau ar y Jones): I have listened to your comments on cymorth a roddir i swyddfeydd post. the assistance afforded to post offices. I refer Cyfeiriaf yn benodol at swyddfeydd post specifically to rural post offices. Several post gwledig. Mae nifer o swyddfeydd post yn offices in Anglesey are closing due to a lack Ynys Môn yn cau oherwydd diffyg of support for the services that they provide. cefnogaeth i’r gwasanaethau y maent yn eu If there is an assistance fund for post offices, darparu. Os oes cronfa gymorth ar gyfer why are so many closing? swyddfeydd post, pam y mae cynifer yn cau?

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid dim ond un gronfa The First Minister: It is not just one fund; sydd ar gael; mae nifer ohonynt. Ceir cronfa there are many such funds available. There is ar gyfer swyddfeydd post gwledig a chronfa a fund for rural post offices and a ddatblygu ar gyfer swyddfeydd post sy’n development fund for post offices serving the gwasanaethau’r 125 ward tlotaf yng 125 poorest wards in Wales. I have already Nghymru. Dywedais eisoes i swyddfa bost named Rhosneigr post office as one that has Rhosneigr dderbyn grant. Fodd bynnag, mae received a grant. However, much more llawer mwy o arian ar gael. Os yw’r is-bost money is available. If the sub-post-master or feistr neu feistres am barhau â’r busnes, mae sub-post-mistress wishes to keep the post arian ar gael i’w cynorthwyo os y gallant office in operation, money is available to help ddaparu cynllun busnes synhwyrol. Fodd them, subject to them providing a sensible bynnag, os nad oes ganddynt yr ewyllys i business plan. However, if they choose not to barhau, ac os ydynt am werthu’r busnes, ni continue, and if they want to sell the allwn eu rhwystro. Serch hynny, gallwn eu business, we cannot stand in their way. cymell â’r posibilrwydd eu bod yn gymwys i However, we can provide them with the dderbyn arian o’r gronfa ar gyfer swyddfeydd incentive that they may be eligible to receive post gwledig neu’r gronfa ar gyfer money from the fund for rural post offices or swyddfeydd post sy’n gwasanaethu’r wardiau from the fund for post offices serving the lleiaf llewyrchus yng Nghymru. Nid dim ond least prosperous wards in Wales. It is not swyddfa bost Rhosneigr a all fanteisio ar hyn; only Rhosneigr post office that can take mae llawer mwy o swyddfeydd post Ynys advantage of this; many other post offices in Môn yn gymwys i dderbyn cymorth. Anglesey are eligible to receive assistance.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Y broblem yw nad oes Ieuan Wyn Jones: The problem is that, swyddfeydd post newydd yn agor pan fo when post offices close, no new post offices swyddfa bost yn cau. Pan fo is-bost feistr open. When a sub-post-master decides, for wedi penderfynu peidio â pharhau â’i fusnes, whatever reason, not to continue with his am ba reswm bynnag, nid oes eraill yn business, others do not come forward to take manteisio ar y cynllun y cyfeiriwch ato. Rhan advantage of the scheme to which you refer. o’r broblem yw’r mater y cyfeiriodd Mick Part of the problem is the issue to which Bates ato, sef nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn Mick Bates referred, namely that the egluro wrth bensiynwyr bod ganddynt yr Government is not explaining to pensioners hawl i ddewis sut y derbyniant eu taliadau that they have the right to choose how their pensiwn. A ydych yn ymwybodol bod pension payments are made. Are you aware honno’n broblem wirioneddol i swyddfeydd that that is a serious problem for small post post bach, ac y teimla’r sawl sy’n rhedeg y offices, and that those who run those post swyddfeydd post hynny fod y modd y mae’r offices feel that the way in which the Llywodraeth yn Llundain yn cyfleu’r dewis i Government in London communicates the bensiynwyr yn annheg? Yn ogystal â hybu’r choice to pensioners is unfair? In addition to cronfeydd y cyfeiriwch atynt, a wnewch promoting the funds to which you refer, will sicrhau bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn you ensure that the Assembly Government egluro wrth bensiynwyr bod ganddynt explains to pensioners that they have a ddewis? Os nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn choice? If the Government in London is Llundain yn fodlon gwneud hynny, a unwilling to do that, will you ensure that wnewch sicrhau bod pensiynwyr Cymru yn Welsh pensioners are aware that they have a ymwybodol bod ganddynt ddewis? choice?

14 01/07/2003

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae gan bensiynwyr The First Minister: Of course pensioners ddewis, wrth gwrs. Derbyniaf fod gwneud have a choice. I accept that it is more difficult dewis teg rhwng y ddau opsiwn yn anos nag than it should be to make a fair choice y dylai fod. Mae’r broses o agor cyfrif between the two options. The process of swyddfa bost, yn hytrach na chyfrif banc, opening a post office account, as opposed to hefyd yn anos nag y dylai fod; rhaid ichi a bank account, is also more complex than it lenwi tua chwe ffurflen cyn y cewch agor should be; you have to complete about six cyfrif. Mae hynny’n rhy gymhleth. forms before you can do so. That is too complex.

Gwaith Atgyweirio (A55 ger Twnnel Penmaenbach) Repair Work (A55 near Penmaenbach Tunnel)

Q5 Denise Idris Jones: What developments C5 Denise Idris Jones: Pa ddatblygiadau are being made on the repair work being sy’n cael eu gwneud ar waith atgyweirio’r undertaken on the A55 near the Penmaenbach A55 ger twnnel Penmaenbach? (OAQ26321) tunnel? (OAQ26321)

The First Minister: Phase 1 of the works Y Prif Weinidog: Cwblhawyd y rhan gyntaf was completed on time. The road has been o’r gwaith yn brydlon. Ailagorwyd y ffordd re-opened for the summer holiday period. ar gyfer cyfnod gwyliau’r haf. Bydd ail ran y Phase 2 of the works will commence in gwaith yn dechrau ym mis Medi, er mwyn ei September, for completion in early 2004. The gwblhau ddechrau 2004. Cyfanswm cost y total cost of both phases will be about £4 ddwy ran fydd tua £4 miliwn. million.

Denise Idris Jones: I hope that most of my Denise Idris Jones: Gobeithiaf fod y rhan constituents were listening to that answer fwyaf o’m hetholwyr yn gwrando ar yr ateb because I am constantly asked about traffic hwnnw oherwydd fe’m holir yn gyson am problems on the A55. One lane has been broblemau traffig ar yr A55. Mae un lôn almost permanently coned off at wedi’i chau’n barhaol bron â chonau ym Penmaenbach because of the roadworks over Mhenmaen-bach oherwydd y gwaith ar y the railway line. We have been told, and I am ffordd dros y rheilffordd. Dywedwyd pleased to hear your reassurance, that this wrthym, ac yr wyf yn falch o glywed y work will soon be completed. sicrwydd a roesoch, y cwblheir y gwaith hwn cyn hir.

The First Minister: I am pleased about this. Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn falch o hynny. Everyone accepts that the A55 is an almost Mae pawb yn derbyn bod yr A55 yn ffordd unique road in its dependence on holiday unigryw bron am ei bod yn dibynnu ar lif traffic flow, which is greater during July and traffig yn y gwyliau, sy’n fwy yn ystod August than at any other time of the year. In Gorffennaf ac Awst nag ar unrhyw adeg arall order to ensure that work on the A55 would o’r flwyddyn. Er mwyn sicrhau na fyddai not block holiday traffic, the phases were gwaith ar yr A55 yn rhwystro traffig yn y arranged to take place before and after the gwyliau, rhannwyd y gwaith fel ei fod yn holiday season. This work is a direct digwydd cyn ac ar ôl tymor y gwyliau. Mae’r consequence of the Selby rail disaster, which gwaith hwn yn ganlyniad uniongyrchol i’r highlighted the need to strengthen barriers trychineb rheilffordd yn Selby, a dynnodd separating rail and road traffic. It has been sylw at yr angen i atgyfnerthu rhwystrau discovered that, after 153 years, one of rhwng traffig rheilffyrdd a thraffig ffyrdd. Telford’s iron beams is not quite as strong as Darganfuwyd nad yw un o drawstiau haearn it should be. However, that is more of a Telford, ar ôl 153 o flynyddoedd, mor gryf ag tribute to Telford and the quality of y dylai fod. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n fwy workmanship in the Victorian era rather than o deyrnged i Telford ac i ansawdd gwaith

15 01/07/2003 a criticism. The safety of all barriers crefftwyr oes Fictoria nag ydyw o separating road traffic and overhead rail feirniadaeth. Ymchwilir i ddiogelwch yr holl bridges will be examined following the Selby rwystrau sy’n gwahanu traffig ffyrdd a incident. phontydd rheilffyrdd uwchben ar ôl y digwyddiad yn Selby.

Brynle Williams: I am pleased to hear your Brynle Williams: Yr wyf yn falch o glywed reply. However, is it not time that we eich ateb. Fodd bynnag, onid yw’n bryd inni considered reinforcing the rail link in order to ystyried atgyfnerthu’r cyswllt rheilffordd er send traffic from ferries direct to mainland mwyn anfon traffig o longau fferi yn Europe? The amount of traffic using the A55 uniongyrchol i dir mawr Ewrop? Mae maint means that a third lane will soon be needed. I y traffig sy’n defnyddio’r A55 yn golygu y believe that about 90 per cent of traffic bydd angen trydedd lôn cyn hir. Credaf fod travelling to mainland Europe comes from tua 90 y cant o’r traffig sy’n teithio i dir ferries, which is equivalent to 6,000 tonnes mawr Ewrop yn dod o longau fferi, sy’n per ferry. Would it not be better for this cyfateb i 6,000 tunnell fetrig y llong. Oni traffic to use rail links and travel through the fyddai’n well i’r traffig hwn ddefnyddio channel tunnel rather than use roads, which rheilffyrdd a theithio drwy dwnnel y sianel leaves people in north Wales with bills for yn hytrach na defnyddio ffyrdd, sy’n gadael road repairs and reinforcement? biliau i’w talu gan bobl yn y Gogledd am atgyweirio ac atgyfnerthu ffyrdd?

The First Minister: That is an interesting Y Prif Weinidog: Mae hwnnw’n bwynt point. We expect an increase in freight traffic diddorol. Disgwyliwn y bydd cynnydd mewn in Holyhead when the two-level loading traffig cludiant yng Nghaergybi pan gwblheir ramp, funded by Objective 1, is completed. y ramp llwytho dwy lefel, a gyllidir drwy When that happens, Holyhead will be able to Amcan 1. Pan ddigwydd hynny, bydd compete on an equal basis with the Pembroke Caergybi’n gallu cystadlu’n deg â’r llong to Rosslare ferry, which already has a two- fferi o Benfro i Rosslare, sydd â ramp level loading ramp. If the Irish economy and llwytho dwy lefel eisoes. Os yw economi its exports continue to grow, there will be Iwerddon a’i hallforion yn parhau i gynyddu, more traffic on the roads. At what point it bydd mwy o draffig ar y ffyrdd. Mae’r adeg y becomes a congestion factor on the A55 is a daw hynny’n ffactor sy’n achosi tagfeydd ar matter upon which highway engineers will yr A55 yn fater y bydd yn rhaid i beirianwyr need to advise. When we receive advice from priffyrdd gynghori arno. Pan gawn gyngor the chief highway engineer, I will write to gan y prif beiriannydd priffyrdd, ysgrifennaf you. atoch.

Alun Ffred Jones: Mae cost y gwaith Alun Ffred Jones: The cost of the work presennol yn £4 miliwn. A yw’r Llywodraeth being undertaken is £4 million. Has the wedi ystyried creu twnnel newydd cyfochrog Government considered building a new â’r twnnel presennol, fel y mae busnesau yng tunnel parallel with the existing one? Nghonwy a gogledd-orllewin Cymru wedi Businesses in Conwy and north-west Wales gofyn amdano lawer gwaith? Cynigiwyd have asked repeatedly for this. This was hynny gan y contractiwr gwreiddiol pan proposed by the original contractors when the adeiladwyd y twnnel presennol, gan fod existing tunnel was built due to the fact that traffic yn teithio i’r dwyrain yn gorfod symud eastbound traffic moves slowly around yn araf o gwmpas Penmaenbach. Penmaenbach.

Y Prif Weinidog: Derbyniaf nad yw traffig The First Minister: I accept that traffic yn gallu teithio 70 mya ar hyd y ffordd am cannot travel at 70 mph along the two-mile tua dwy filltir o amgylch Penmaenbach a bod stretch at Penmaenbach and that the road y ffordd yn peri problem. Serch hynny, nid causes some difficulty. However, I have not wyf wedi gweld costau adeiladu twnnel a seen any cost proposals for a new tunnel that fyddai’n sicrhau llif di-dor ar hyd yr A55 yn would allow the free flow of traffic along the

16 01/07/2003 ardal Penmaenbach. Os oes gennych A55 in the Penmaenbach area. If you have amcangyfrif oddi wrth y cyngor sir, neu any estimates from the county council, or unrhyw un arall, byddai diddordeb gennyf anyone else, I would be interested to hear glywed am hynny, ynghyd â chynnig y about them, along with the original contractiwr gwreiddiol i adeiladu twnnel contractor’s proposal to build a second ychwanegol. tunnel.

Darpariaeth Cyfrwng Cymraeg ym Maes Addysg Uwch Welsh-medium Provision in Higher Education

C6 Eleanor Burnham: A wnaiff y Prif Q6 Eleanor Burnham: Will the First Weinidog ddatganiad ar y ddarpariaeth Minister make a statement on Welsh-medium cyfrwng Cymraeg ym maes addysg uwch? provision in higher education? (OAQ26329) (OAQ26329)

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae strategaeth The First Minister: The Welsh Assembly Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer y Government’s strategy for the Welsh Gymraeg wedi ei nodi yn ‘Iaith Pawb’. Yn language is set out in ‘Iaith Pawb’. The ddiweddar, lluniodd Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Higher Education Funding Council for Wales Uwch Cymru adroddiad ar y ddarpariaeth recently produced a report on the supply of, cyfrwng Cymraeg sydd ar gael, a’r galw and demand for, Welsh-medium provision amdani, yn y sector addysg uwch, ac yr within the higher education sector and, ydym, ar y cyd â’r cyngor, yn asesu sut y together with the council, we are assessing gallwn gynyddu darpariaeth cyfrwng how we can increase sustainable Welsh- Cymraeg gynaliadwy tymor hir. medium provision in the long term.

2.30 p.m.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf yn sicr eich bod Eleanor Burnham: I am sure that you are yn ymwybodol o sefyllfa Adran y Gymraeg aware of the situation in the Department of Prifysgol Cymru, Aberystwyth, lle na fydd y Welsh of the University of Wales, Brifysgol yn penodi olynydd ar gyfer athro Aberystwyth, where the University has sy’n ymddeol. A gytunwch nad yw hynny’n decided not appoint a successor to a retiring argoeli’n dda ar gyfer dyfodol dysgu pynciau professor. Do you agree that that does not eraill drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a bod angen bode well for the future of teaching other i’ch Llywodraeth weithredu’n bendant gan subjects through the medium of Welsh and fod y galw am addysg Gymraeg yn parhau i that your Government needs to act decisively gynyddu o ysgol feithrin hyd at brifysgol? given that demand for Welsh-medium education continues to increase from nursery provision to university?

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o The First Minister: I am aware of the great lwyddiant mawr Adran y Gymraeg, Prifysgol success of the Department of Welsh of the Cymru, Aberystwyth. Derbyniodd asesiad 5* University of Wales, Aberystwyth. It yn ystod yr asesiad ymchwil diwethaf. Mae’n received a 5* rating in the last research bosibl astudio hyd at 20 o bynciau drwy assessment exercise. It is possible to study up gyfrwng y Gymraeg at lefel anrhydedd, gan to 20 subjects through the medium of Welsh gynnwys mathemateg, gwleidyddiaeth, to degree level, including mathematics, daearyddiaeth, celfyddyd ac addysg. Yn politics, geography, art and education. There ogystal, mae neuadd breswyl ar gyfer is also a hall of residence for students who myfyrwyr sy’n awyddus i fyw mewn wish to live in a Welsh-language awyrgylch Gymraeg a Chymreig. environment.

Mae Aberystwyth wedi cymryd nifer o Aberystwyth has taken many steps to provide

17 01/07/2003 gamau er mwyn darparu gwasanaeth addysg higher education through the medium of uwch drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Hoffwn Welsh. I would like to hear of any complaints glywed am unrhyw gwynion ynghylch about a particular appointment, and I am sure penodiad arbennig, ac yr wyf yn sicr y byddai that Jane Davidson would say the same. Jane Davidson yn dweud yr un peth.

Helen Mary Jones: Dywedasoch eich bod Helen Mary Jones: You said that you are in yn cynnal trafodaethau ynghylch sut i hybu discussions on how to promote Welsh addysg Gymraeg yn y sector addysg uwch. A education in the higher education sector. Are ydych yn ymwybodol bod eich Gweinidog you aware that your Minister for Education Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes wedi gweld tri and Lifelong Learning has had sight of three chynllun manwl ynghylch coleg ffederal, gan detailed plans on a federal college, including gynnwys defnyddio’r we a ffurf fodern o the use of the web and modern ways of hybu dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? Hyd promoting Welsh-medium teaching? She has yn hyn nid yw wedi ymateb yn ffurfiol, ac y not yet responded formally and some say that mae rhai’n dweud bod ei hymateb anffurfiol her informal response is negative. Are you yn negyddol. A ydych yn barod i ailystyried prepared to reconsider proposals for a federal y cynlluniau ar gyfer coleg ffederal ac, os nad college and, if not, where will you find the ydych, ble fyddwch yn dod o hyd i’r teachers that will be necessary to implement athrawon a fydd yn angenrheidiol i the schemes outlined in ‘Iaith Pawb’? weithredu’r cynlluniau a nodir yn ‘Iaith Pawb’?

Y Prif Weinidog: Y cwestiwn pwysig yw a The First Minister: The important question oes rhwystrau i ddod o hyd i ddigon o bobl is whether there are barriers to getting sy’n arbenigo mewn pwnc penodol ac sydd enough people who specialise in a specific yn meistroli’r Gymraeg. Mae’n rhaid eich subject and have also mastered the Welsh bod yn gallu meistroli’r pwnc yn ogystal â language. You must be able to master the gallu ei ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. subject as well as being able to teach it Mae’n syndod faint o bynciau sydd ar gael through the medium of Welsh. It is surprising drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y sector addysg how many subjects are taught through the uwch. Mae 20 o bynciau ar gael yn medium of Welsh in higher education. There Aberystwyth a mwy ym Mangor, ond nid oes are 20 subjects in Aberystwyth and more in cynifer yn Abertawe na Chaerdydd. Fodd Bangor, but there are fewer in Swansea and bynnag, mae hynny’n gryn dipyn o’i Cardiff. However, that is quite a lot given the gymharu â’r sefyllfa chwarter canrif yn ôl. situation a quarter of a century ago. I am not Nid wyf yn siŵr am gynlluniau ar gyfer coleg sure about the proposals for a federal college, ffederal, ond mae’n bwysig ei fod yn gallu but it is important that it can supply the cyflenwi’r galw am fwy o athrawon i ddysgu demand for more Welsh teachers in our Cymraeg yn ein hysgolion gan fod prinder schools, given that there is a shortage of ohonynt. them.

David Davies: A gytunwch mai’r rheswm y David Davies: Do you agree that the reason mae mor anodd i ddod o hyd i ddigon o for the difficulty in finding enough Welsh athrawon Cymraeg yw bod y rhan fwyaf yn teachers is that most of them are wasting their gwastraffu eu hamser yn dysgu plant yn sir time teaching children in Monmouthshire Fynwy sydd â dim diddordeb mewn dysgu’r who are not interested in learning Welsh? Gymraeg?

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni allaf siarad am yr The First Minister: I cannot talk about the amgylchiadau a arweiniodd at eich ailethol circumstances that led to your re-election as yn Aelod y Cynulliad dros Fynwy. Yr wyf yn Assembly Member for Monmouth. I am sure sicr bod gan bobl yr hawl i gymryd rhan that people have the right to take part in mewn democratiaeth lle bynnag y maent yn democracy wherever they choose to do so. dewis gwneud hynny. Mae honno’n That is an important principle.

18 01/07/2003 egwyddor bwysig.

Y System Etholiadol ar gyfer Etholiadau Lleol The Electoral System for Local Elections

Q7 Michael German: Will the First Minister C7 Michael German: A wnaiff y Prif make a statement on the electoral system for Weinidog ddatganiad ar y system etholiadol local elections in Wales? (OAQ26332) ar gyfer etholiadau lleol yng Nghymru? (OAQ26332)

The First Minister: Local elections will be Y Prif Weinidog: Cynhelir etholiadau lleol held across Wales next year and will use the ledled Cymru y flwyddyn nesaf a same electoral system as previously: defnyddiwn yr un system etholiadol ag o’r candidates receiving the highest number of blaen: bydd ymgeiswyr sy’n cael y nifer votes will get elected in single or multi- fwyaf o bleidleisiau yn cael eu hethol mewn member divisions. I am not aware of any adrannau a chanddynt un aelod neu ragor. Ni plans by the Office of the Deputy Prime wn am unrhyw gynlluniau sydd Swyddfa’r Minister to consider alternative electoral Dirprwy Brif Weinidog i ystyried dulliau methods for local government in Wales. etholiadol eraill ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru.

Michael German: I am sure that some Michael German: Yr wyf yn siŵr bod rhai members of your party are anxious to hear aelodau o’ch plaid yn awyddus i glywed the result of the discussion that was held in canlyniad y drafodaeth a gynhaliwyd yn y this Assembly on the Sunderland Cynulliad hwn ar argymhellion comisiwn commission’s recommendations and whether Sunderland ac a ydynt i’w trafod ymhellach they were due for further discussion during yn ystod y sesiwn hwn. Pa gynlluniau sydd this session. What plans do you have to bring gennych i ddwyn y materion hyn gerbron these matters before a Committee or Plenary? Pwyllgor neu Gyfarfod Llawn?

The First Minister: None. Y Prif Weinidog: Dim.

Glyn Davies: Given the clarity of your Glyn Davies: Yng ngolwg eglurder eich answer, on which I congratulate you, can you ateb, y’ch llongyfarchaf arno, a allwch ein assure us that you will not contemplate sicrhau na wnewch ystyried cyflwyno introducing changes to the first-past-the-post newidiadau i system y cyntaf i’r felin yn awr system now or in the future? neu yn y dyfodol?

The First Minister: It is not advisable to rule Y Prif Weinidog: Nid peth call yw diystyru things out completely, and it is unwise for pethau’n gyfan gwbl, ac mae’n annoeth i politicians to use the word ‘never’. However, wleidyddion ddefnyddio’r gair ‘byth’. Er we must recognise that responsibility for hynny, rhaid inni gydnabod na ddatganolwyd local government elections is not devolved to cyfrifoldeb dros etholiadau llywodraeth leol this Assembly—it is the responsibility of the i’r Cynulliad hwn—cyfrifoldeb swyddfa’r office of the Deputy Prime Minister. A Bill Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yw hynny. Cyflwynir will be introduced in the Scottish Parliament Mesur yn Senedd yr Alban i gyflwyno to introduce local elections through the single etholiadau lleol drwy’r bleidlais sengl transferable vote, but others will be able to drosglwyddadwy, ond bydd eraill yn gallu fy educate me further on that. We will watch addysgu ymhellach ar hynny. Gwyliwn yr that experiment with interest, but there is no arbrawf hwnnw gyda diddordeb, ond nid oes proposal at present to take the Sunderland bwriad ar hyn o bryd i fynd ag argymhellion commission’s recommendations any further comisiwn Sunderland ymhellach drwy’r by way of this Assembly, nor, as far as I am Cynulliad hwn, nac ychwaith, hyd y gwn i, aware, in Westminster, via the offices of John yn San Steffan, drwy waith John Prescott, y Prescott, the Deputy Prime Minister. Dirprwy Brif Weinidog.

19 01/07/2003

Janet Ryder: Whatever mechanisms are Janet Ryder: Pa bynnag ddulliau a used to elect councillors, they need to know ddefnyddir i ethol cynghorwyr, rhaid iddynt the date of their election. We should be less gael gwybod dyddiad eu hetholiad. Mae’r than 11 months away from their next etholiad nesaf i fod i’w gynnal ymhen llai na election, but you have failed to confirm a 11 mis, ond yr ydych wedi methu â date. It has been strongly rumoured that you chadarnhau dyddiad. Mae si ar led eich bod are considering postponing the local elections yn ystyried gohirio’r etholiadau lleol am for yet another year. Will you guarantee flwyddyn arall eto. A wnewch warantu today that the elections for local government heddiw y bydd yr etholiadau ar gyfer will happen in May next year, as was llywodraeth leol yn digwydd ym Mai y originally planned? flwyddyn nesaf, fel y bwriadwyd yn wreiddiol?

The First Minister: Changing the election Y Prif Weinidog: Ystyrir newid dyddiad yr date to coincide with the European election etholiad fel ei fod ar yr un diwrnod â’r date is being considered. When we have etholiad Ewropeaidd. Pan fyddwn wedi reached a decision on that, we will inform the penderfynu ar hynny, rhown wybod i’r Assembly. However, I would not believe any Cynulliad. Er hynny, ni chredwn unrhyw si a rumour mill, somewhere in Wales, that greir, yn unman yng Nghymru, i’r perwyl ein believes that we are proposing to delay bod yn bwriadu gohirio etholiadau am elections for another year. flwyddyn arall.

Pwyllgor Paratoi Cymru ar gyfer yr Ewro The Wales Euro Preparation Committee

Q8 Gwenda Thomas: What discussions has C8 Gwenda Thomas: Pa drafodaethau y the First Minister had with the Secretary of mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael ag State for Wales concerning the Wales euro Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch preparation committee? (OAQ26337) pwyllgor paratoi Cymru ar gyfer yr ewro? (OAQ26337)

The First Minister: I have had preliminary Y Prif Weinidog: Cefais drafodaethau discussions with the Secretary of State for rhagarweiniol ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Wales concerning the role and membership Cymru ynghylch rôl ac aelodaeth y pwyllgor, of the committee, which he will chair. We are y bydd ef yn ei gadeirio. Bwriadwn looking to finalise the arrangements as soon gwblhau’r trefniadau cyn gynted ag y bo as possible, and I hope to make modd, a gobeithiaf wneud cyhoeddiadau cyn announcements soon. hir.

Gwenda Thomas: Are you able to begin Gwenda Thomas: A allwch ddechrau outlining the timetable for the preparation amlinellu’r amserlen ar gyfer gwaith y committee’s work? pwyllgor paratoi?

The First Minister: Yes. I understand from Y Prif Weinidog: Gallaf. Cefais wybod gan the Secretary of State for Wales that it is Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ei bod yn essential that the body completes its work by hollbwysig i’r corff gwblhau ei waith erbyn 1 1 October. We must assemble the Hydref. Rhaid inni gynnull yr aelodau a membership and agree with the stakeholders’ chytuno’n fuan ar yr enwebeion a gynigir gan proposed nominees quickly, in time for a y rhanddeiliaid, mewn pryd ar gyfer cyfarfod scoping meeting in July. There will possibly cwmpasu yng Ngorffennaf. Mae’n bosibl y be a meeting in August, but certainly in bydd cyfarfod yn Awst, ond bydd un yn sicr September, to determine a set of o fod ym Medi, i bennu set o argymhellion ar recommendations for Wales, so that the gyfer Cymru, fel y gellir anfon y deunydd at material can be sent to the Chancellor, who y Canghellor, sydd â chyfrifoldeb yn y DU

20 01/07/2003 has UK responsibility for this matter. The dros y mater hwn. Rhaid cwblhau’r gwaith work must be completed quickly over the yn gyflym dros y tri mis nesaf. next three months.

Elin Jones: Yr ydych chi, a Peter Hain, fel Elin Jones: You, and the Secretary of State Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, wedi gwneud for Wales, Peter Hain, have made a public ymrwymiad cyhoeddus i deithio’r wlad i commitment to travel the country discussing drafod a hyrwyddo’r ewro. A ydych yn cadw and promoting the euro. Will you keep to that at yr ymrwymiad hwnnw, yn dilyn penodiad commitment, following the appointment of Peter Hain yn Arweinydd Tŷ’r Cyffredin? Peter Hain as Leader of the House of Commons?

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni allaf siarad ar ran Peter The First Minister: I cannot speak on behalf Hain, ond ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedais yr of Peter Hain, but I reiterate what I said last wythnos diwethaf: pan genir y gloch, byddaf week: when the bell is rung, I will campaign yn ymgyrchu ar draws Cymru. across Wales.

William Graham: With regard to the William Graham: Mewn cysylltiad â’r European Parliament elections next year, has etholiadau i Senedd Ewrop y flwyddyn nesaf, the Secretary of State for Wales confirmed a yw Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru wedi the Chancellor’s proposal to announce a cadarnhau bwriad y Canghellor i gyhoeddi referendum bill this autumn? Do you also mesur refferendwm yr hydref hwn? A ydych believe that council elections should be on hefyd yn credu y dylai’r etholiadau i the same day as the European elections? gynghorau fod ar yr un diwrnod â’r etholiadau Ewropeaidd?

The First Minister: I will answer those two Y Prif Weinidog: Atebaf y ddau gwestiwn questions separately. On the referendum, it is hynny ar wahân. Ynghylch y refferendwm, clear from the speed with which the mae’n amlwg yn ôl awydd y Canghellor i Chancellor wants the Wales euro preparation gynnull pwyllgor paratoi Cymru ar gyfer yr committee and the committees for England, ewro a’r pwyllgorau ar gyfer Lloegr, yr Scotland and then the UK as a whole, to be Alban ac wedyn y DU gyfan yn fuan ar ôl drawn together after finalising their iddynt gwblhau eu hargymhellion ar 30 recommendations on 30 September, that he Medi, ei fod yn dymuno cadw’r posibilrwydd wants to maintain the possibility of a o gynnal refferendwm cyn diwedd y Senedd referendum within the remainder of this hon yn San Steffan. Ni wn y dyddiad, ac Westminster Parliament. I do not know the efallai na phenderfynwyd arno yng date, and it may not have been decided upon nghynghorau uchaf Llywodraeth y DU. Nid in the highest councils of the UK yw hynny’n berthnasol i ddyddiad yr Government. That does not have a bearing on etholiadau Ewropeaidd y flwyddyn nesaf. Yr the date of the European elections next year. hyn sy’n bwysig i ni yw’r baich ar The issue for us is the burden on the swyddogion canlyniadau o gynnal etholiadau returning officers of local government llywodraeth leol, etholiadau i gynghorau elections, community council elections and cymuned ac etholiadau Ewropeaidd ar yr un European elections being held on the same diwrnod. Ar y llaw arall, os na chynhelir hwy day. On the other hand, if they are not held ar yr un diwrnod, pa nifer a bleidleisia mewn on the same day, what will the turnout be in etholiadau nad ydynt yn digwydd yr un pryd elections that do not coincide with the bulk of â’r rhan helaethaf o’r etholiadau ledled the elections throughout England and Lloegr a’r Alban? Scotland?

2.40 p.m.

Jenny Randerson: In the light of that Jenny Randerson: Yng ngolwg yr ateb answer, do you agree that the momentum hwnnw, a ydych yn cytuno bod rhaid cynnal

21 01/07/2003 established by the preparation committee y momentwm a greir gan y pwyllgor paratoi must be maintained to ensure that we work er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gweithio gyda with large and small businesses in Wales, busnesau mawr a mân yng Nghymru, gan eu involving them in preparations for the euro in cynnwys yn y paratoadau ar gyfer yr ewro a thorough and ongoing way, up until the mewn modd trwyadl a pharhaol, hyd at y referendum? refferendwm?

The First Minister: This is not a Y Prif Weinidog: Nid ymrwymiad i gynnal commitment to an early referendum. I am not refferendwm yn fuan yw hwn. Nid wyf yn slamming the door on the possibility of a cau’r drws ar y posibilrwydd o gael referendum during the remaining years of the refferendwm yn ystod y blynyddoedd sy’n Westminster Parliament, which could mean weddill o Senedd San Steffan, a allai olygu ei that it happens before the end of 2005. This bod yn digwydd cyn diwedd 2005. Nid yw does not mean there will be a referendum at hynny’n golygu y bydd refferendwm bryd that time, but at least we will be ready if there hynny, ond o leiaf y byddwn yn barod os ceir is. I agree that we must continue to make an un. Cytunaf fod rhaid inni ddal i ymdrechu i effort to engage with the stakeholders. gysylltu â’r rhanddeiliaid.

Lleihau Biwrocratiaeth Reducing Bureaucracy

C9 Rhodri Glyn Thomas: A wnaiff y Prif Q9 Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Will the First Weinidog ddatganiad ar y camau y bydd ei Minister make a statement on the measures Lywodraeth yn eu cymryd i leihau that his Government will introduce to reduce biwrocratiaeth wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau bureaucracy in the delivery of public services cyhoeddus yng Nghymru? (OAQ26340) in Wales? (OAQ26340)

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd Llywodraeth The First Minister: The Welsh Assembly Cynulliad Cymru yn pennu blaenoriaethau Government will set clear strategic priorities strategol, clir, er mwyn cynnig gwasanaethau to offer high-quality public services in Wales cyhoeddus yng Nghymru sydd o ansawdd that are responsive to local need and are uchel, sy’n ymateb i anghenion lleol, ac sy’n publicly accountable. We will work with our atebol yn gyhoeddus. Byddwn yn gweithio public-sector partners to ensure that public gyda’n partneriaid yn y sector cyhoeddus i services focus on outcomes and not on the sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn processes used. canolbwyntio ar ganlyniadau yn hytrach na’r prosesau a ddefnyddir.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Cymeraf y bu ad- Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I take it that drefnu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn enghraifft o’r restructuring the health service was an strategaeth glir hon, lle y crëwyd example of this clear strategy, where biwrocratiaeth ddiangen sy’n cyflawni dim unnecessary bureaucracy that achieves ond sy’n costio £18 miliwn—ffigur sy’n codi nothing was created at a cost of £18 o ddydd i ddydd. A ydych yn derbyn ichi million—a figure that increases daily. Do you greu micro-fiwrocratiaeth, sy’n golygu bod accept that you have created a micro- pobl yn rhoi ticiau mewn blychau yn lle bureaucracy, which means that people tick darparu’r gwasanaethau sy’n angenrheidiol i boxes instead of providing the necessary bobl Cymru? services to the people of Wales?

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwn yn derbyn The First Minister: I would accept anything unrhyw beth ond y disgrifiad hwnnw, nad other than that description, which I do not wyf yn ei adnabod o gwbl. Drwy greu recognise at all. By creating a network of rhwydwaith o atebolrwydd lleol a chlymu local accountability and linking social gwasanaethau cymdeithasol gyda’r services with the national health service, we gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, yr ydym yn are trying to provide a service that works for

22 01/07/2003 ceisio cael gwasanaeth sy’n gweithio ar gyfer patients and the disadvantaged, that is cleifion a phobl anghenus, sy’n atebol ac sy’n accountable and works well with local gweithio’n dda gyda llywodraeth leol, ac sy’n government, which chooses its priorities gallu dewis ei flaenoriaethau yn lleol yn y 22 locally in the 22 different areas across Wales. ardal wahanol ledled Cymru.

Jonathan Morgan: Returning to the Jonathan Morgan: Gan fynd yn ôl at y question that Rhodri Glyn Thomas asked, cwestiwn a ofynnodd Rhodri Glyn Thomas, your Government gave a commitment that rhoddodd eich Llywodraeth ymrwymiad y restructuring the NHS would be cost-neutral. byddai’r ad-drefnu ar y GIG yn niwtral o ran We then learnt that the restructuring will cost costau. Cawsom wybod wedyn y bydd yr ad- about £16 million, although Rhodri Glyn just drefnu’n costio tua £16 miliwn, er bod referred to £18 million. Can you assure us Rhodri Glyn newydd gyfeirio at swm o £18 that the costs will not exceed the figures that miliwn. A allwch ein sicrhau na fydd y were mentioned today? costau’n fwy na’r ffigurau a grybwyllwyd heddiw?

The First Minister: I am not familiar with Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn gyfarwydd â costings of £16 million or £18 million. We phrisiadau o £16 filiwn neu £18 miliwn. Ni did not say that the restructuring would cost ddywedasom y byddai’r ad-drefnu’n costio nothing, we said that the running costs would dim, dywedasom na fyddai’r costau rhedeg not exceed the costs of the previous system. yn fwy na rhai’r system flaenorol. Hyd y gwn As far as I am aware, the position remains the i, nid yw’r sefyllfa wedi newid. same.

Kirsty Williams: Do you agree with the Kirsty Williams: A ydych yn cytuno â’r comments made by Dr Ian Bogle, the retiring sylwadau a wnaeth Dr Ian Bogle, sy’n chair of the British Medical Association, that ymddeol fel cadeirydd Cymdeithas Feddygol the Government’s obsession with waiting list Prydain, fod obsesiwn y Llywodraeth â targets is strangling the health service, thargedau rhestrau aros yn tagu’r gwasanaeth distorting clinical priorities and— iechyd ac yn gwyrdroi blaenoriaethau potentially—harming patients? Do you agree clinigol, ac y gallai fod yn niweidiol i that it is time to move to a more holistic way gleifion? A ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn bryd of measuring the NHS’s performance? symud tuag at ddull mwy cyfannol o fesur perfformiad y GIG?

The First Minister: I heard the interview Y Prif Weinidog: Clywais y cyfweliad a that he gave on the Today programme this roddodd ar raglen Today y bore yma. Y math morning. It was the sort of interview that you o gyfweliad ydoedd a ddisgwyliech gan would expect from a retiring, but gadeirydd nodedig ar Gymdeithas Feddygol distinguished, chair of the BMA. I do not Prydain wrth ymddeol. Nid anghytunaf â’r disagree with what he said, but public hyn a ddywedodd, ond mae pwysau bob pressure on politicians, pressure from amser gan y cyhoedd ar wleidyddion, gan politicians on hospital managers and pressure wleidyddion ar reolwyr ysbytai a chan from hospital managers on doctors is always reolwyr ysbytai ar feddygon; ni ellir osgoi there; you cannot escape from that. I agree hynny. Cytunaf y byddai pawb yn fodlon pe that if we lived in an era when performance byddem yn byw mewn oes pan ellid ystyried could be considered holistically, everyone perfformiad yn gyfannol. Mae meddygon a would be happy. Doctors and other health gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eraill yn cael professionals resent managers ringing up to eu digio gan reolwyr sy’n ffonio i ddweud say ‘We will miss our waiting list target if ‘Byddwn yn methu ein targed ar gyfer you do not do this and this’, but when the rhestrau aros os na wnewch hyn a’r llall’, ond doctor replies, ‘Yes, but my clinical priorities pan etyb y meddyg gan ddweud, ‘Ie, ond fy are that and that,’ there is a difficult clash. I mlaenoriaethau clinigol yw hyn a’r llall,’ ceir believe that the BMA has the right and, gwrthdaro sy’n anodd ei ddatrys. Credaf fod

23 01/07/2003 because you cannot stop him, the retiring hawl gan Gymdeithas Feddygol Prydain a chair certainly has the right, to say exactly chan y cadeirydd sy’n ymddeol, yn sicr, am what they think about their experiences of a na ellir ei rwystro, i ddweud yn union beth y target-driven health service. Kirsty, you maent yn ei feddwl am eu profiadau o would probably agree that his remarks were wasanaeth iechyd sy’n cael ei yrru gan mostly directed at problems that he had seen dargedau. Kirsty, mae’n debyg y cytunech in England rather than in Wales. fod ei sylwadau wedi’u cyfeirio’n bennaf at broblemau a welodd yn Lloegr yn hytrach na Chymru.

Cysylltiadau gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan Links with the Westminster Government

C10 Owen John Thomas: Pa drafodaethau y Q10 Owen John Thomas: What discussions mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’u cael â Phrif has the First Minister had with the UK Prime Weinidog y DU ynghylch y cysylltiadau Minister concerning future links between the rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a National Assembly and the Westminster Llywodraeth San Steffan yn y dyfodol? Government? (OAQ26336) (OAQ26336)

Y Prif Weinidog: Er nad oes unrhyw The First Minister: While there have been drafodaethau penodol wedi’u cynnal no specific discussions on the relationship ynghylch y berthynas rhwng y Cynulliad a between the Assembly and the Westminster Llywodraeth San Steffan, gallai unrhyw Government, any discussion on specific drafodaethau ar bolisïau penodol effeithio’n policies may have an indirect impact on the anuniongyrchol ar ddatblygiad y berthynas. development of that relationship.

Owen John Thomas: A private Member’s Owen John Thomas: Mae Mesur Aelod Bill on household recycling is currently at preifat ar ailgylchu domestig gerbron y committee stage in Westminster. However, it pwyllgor perthnasol yn San Steffan ar hyn o is an England-only Bill. Does that not bryd. Fodd bynnag, Mesur i Loegr yn unig highlight the fact that it is high time that the ydyw. Onid yw hynny’n amlygu’r ffaith ei National Assembly had legislative powers to bod yn hen bryd i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol make its own decisions? gael pwerau deddfwriaethol i wneud ei benderfyniadau ei hun?

The First Minister: It is an unusual Bill Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n Fesur anarferol because, although it is a private Member’s oherwydd, er mai Mesur Aelod preifat ydyw, Bill, it was adopted by the Government. fe’i mabwysiadwyd gan y Llywodraeth. Elliot Morely is now the Minister of State at Elliot Morely yw’r Gweinidog Gwladol yn the Department of Environment, Food and Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Rural Affairs instead of Michael Meacher. Gwledig yn awr yn lle Michael Meacher. Er While Michael Meacher may have been in ei bod yn bosibl bod Michael Meacher wedi touch with us before leaving office, Elliot cysylltu â ni cyn iddo adael ei swydd, Morely did so and we have until a week gwnaeth Elliot Morely hynny ac mae gennym Friday to respond. However, the unusual tan wythnos i ddydd Gwener i ymateb. Er circumstances of the Government’s adopting hynny, nid yw’r amgylchiadau anarferol o a private Member’s Bill does not demonstrate fabwysiadu Mesur Aelod preifat gan y a breakdown in relations in the Westminster Llywodraeth yn arwydd o fethiant yn y political process. cysylltiadau â’r broses wleidyddol yn San Steffan.

Peter Black: Is it not regrettable that the Peter Black: Onid yw’n anffodus bod Richard commission report is delayed adroddiad comisiwn Richard wedi’i ohirio because of the change in the role of the oherwydd y newid yn rôl Ysgrifennydd

24 01/07/2003

Secretary of State for Wales? Once that Gwladol Cymru? Wedi i’r comisiwn hwnnw commission reports, will it not be important roi ei adroddiad, oni fydd yn bwysig hwyluso that its recommendations are expedited and ei argymhellion a’u rhoi ar waith yn gyflym implemented quickly so that we can secure a fel y gallwn sicrhau mwy o degwch yn ein more equitable balance in our relations with cysylltiadau â Llywodraeth y DU o ran the UK Government in terms of the dyrannu pwerau? allocation of powers?

The First Minister: I hoped that I had made Y Prif Weinidog: Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio it clear last week that the changes announced fy mod wedi rhoi ar ddeall yr wythnos in the Prime Minister’s recent reshuffle diwethaf nad oedd y newidiadau a caused no delay to the Richard commission. gyhoeddwyd yn yr ad-drefnu diweddar gan y In other words, there will be a delay—not for Prif Weinidog wedi peri oedi i gomisiwn the reason you gave, but because of the Richard. Mewn geiriau eraill, bydd oedi—nid volume of work in writing up the evidence am y rheswm a roesoch chi, ond oherwydd taken. I do not think that the delay will be maint y gwaith o gofnodi’r dystiolaeth a long or that it will affect the report’s overall dderbyniwyd. Ni chredaf y bydd oedi hir nac conclusions. y bydd hynny’n effeithio ar gasgliadau cyffredinol yr adroddiad.

The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru (Nick (Nick Bourne): When you meet Tony Blair, Bourne): Pan gyfarfyddwch â Tony Blair, a will you discuss your support for the part- wnewch drafod eich cefnogaeth i safiad yr time Secretary of State for Wales’s stand on Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru rhan amser ar tax and spend? In 1998, you said on the drethu a gwario? Yn 1998, dywedasoch ar On BBC’s On the Record that the ability to sting the Record ar y BBC mai’r gallu i gosbi’r the upper-middle classes and the wealthy dosbarthiadau canol uwch a’r cyfoethogion without them realising that they have been heb iddynt sylweddoli hynny oedd nod stung was the Holy Grail for Labour. Also, Llafur. Hefyd a gawsoch gyfle i drafod have you had an opportunity to discuss with gyda’r Prif Weinidog y cais gan dri the Prime Minister the three opposition arweinydd y gwrthbleidiau—pedwar leaders’ request—the four opposition arweinydd y gwrthbleidiau—am i leaders—that the Secretary of State for Wales Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ddod gerbron come before Plenary to explain the new y Cyfarfod Llawn i egluro’r ardrefniant settlement? There is confusion about which newydd? Mae dryswch o hyd ynghylch pa powers remain with Peter Hain and which bwerau sydd gan Peter Hain a pha bwerau particular powers the Secretary of State for penodol sydd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Constitutional Affairs has. Lord Falconer dros Faterion Cyfansoddiadol. Ymddengys seems to have ultimate responsibility in mai’r Arglwydd Falconer sy’n gyfrifol yn y relation to the Richard commission proposals. pen draw mewn cysylltiad â chynigion It would be useful to us if we had the comisiwn Richard. Byddai’n fuddiol inni gael opportunity to discuss those points with him gyfle i drafod y pwyntiau hynny gydag ef yn in Plenary. y Cyfarfod Llawn.

The First Minister: I will pass that request Y Prif Weinidog: Trosglwyddaf y cais on, but I am not aware of a formal request. hwnnw, ond ni wn am unrhyw gais ffurfiol. You may have sent one, but I am not aware Efallai eich bod chi wedi anfon un, ond ni wn of such a request. I will, however, relay your i am gais o’r fath. Serch hynny, trosglwyddaf oral request to see whether that is possible. eich cais llafar i weld a yw hynny’n bosibl. The diligence of your research is fascinating Mae’ch sêl wrth ymchwilio o ran dwyn i gof in recalling my interview on On the Record. I fy nghyfweliad ar On the Record yn remember it well; I was sat on a wall in the ddiddorol iawn. Fe’i cofiaf yn iawn; yr middle of Ely, in my constituency. My point oeddwn yn eistedd ar ben wal yng nghanol was in praise of Gordon Brown’s Trelái, yn fy etholaeth. Yr odd y pwynt a redistribution policies, which were working wneuthum yn ganmoliaeth i bolisïau

25 01/07/2003 extremely well and which continue to work ailddosbarthu Gordon Brown, a oedd yn well. gweithio’n dda dros ben ac sy’n dal i weithio’n dda.

Nick Bourne: To return to the first point that Nick Bourne: Gan fynd yn ôl at y pwynt you answered and my second point on Peter cyntaf y gwnaethoch ei ateb a’r ail bwynt a Hain coming here, I think that you were wneuthum am Peter Hain yn dod yma, credaf copied in in the correspondence that fod copi wedi’i anfon atoch o’r ohebiaeth a contained that request. It is important that he oedd yn cynnwys y cais hwnnw. Mae’n comes here to discuss the issues because, bwysig ei fod yn dod yma i drafod y materion apparently, the budget for Wales will go to sy’n codi oherwydd, yn ôl pob golwg, bydd y the Secretary of State for Constitutional gyllideb ar gyfer Cymru yn fater sy’n mynd Affairs, who will then decide what part of the i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Faterion budget goes to the Wales Office, with the Cyfansoddiadol, a fydd wedyn yn penderfynu remainder coming to the Assembly. You may pa ran o’r gyllideb a aiff i Swyddfa Cymru, shake your head, First Minister, but that is gyda’r gweddill yn dod i’r Cynulliad. Cewch why we need clarification, because there is ysgwyd eich pen, Brif Weinidog, ond dyna doubt. Many issues that people would assume pam y mae arnom angen eglurhad, am fod to be matters for the Wales Office—if it still amheuaeth. Mae llawer o faterion y byddai exists within this new structure—are referred pobl yn cymryd eu bod yn faterion i Swyddfa to his department and answered by his civil Cymru—os yw’n dal i fod o fewn y drefn servants. We therefore need clarification and newydd hon—yn cael eu cyfeirio i’w adran I repeat my request that the First Minister ef ac yn cael eu hateb gan ei weision sifil ef. ensures that Peter Hain comes here to make a Gan hynny, mae arnom angen eglurhad ac statement on which we can question him to ailadroddaf fy nghais am i’r Prif Weinidog settle these important issues. sicrhau bod Peter Hain yn dod yma i wneud datganiad y gallwn ei holi amdano i ddod â’r materion pwysig hyn i ben.

The First Minister: You and Plaid Cymru Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych chi a Phlaid are playing a dreary tennis match of trying to Cymru yn chwarae gêm dennis ddiflas o create doubts and then saying that we must geisio creu amheuon a dweud wedyn fod try to solve them by having Peter Hain here. rhaid inni geisio ymdrin â hwy drwy gael In fact, there is no doubt. It is a nonsense to Peter Hain yma. Mewn gwirionedd, nid oes say that Lord Falconer, as Secretary of State unrhyw amheuaeth. Lol yw dweud y bydd rôl for Constitutional Affairs, will have a role in gan yr Arglwydd Falconer, fel yr determining the Welsh block grant and that Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Faterion the Wales Office will receive its funding. Cyfansoddiadol, wrth benderfynu ar grant That is a matter for Peter Hain, not Charlie bloc Cymru ac y bydd Swyddfa Cymru yn Falconer. This misconception is due to a derbyn ei chyllid. Mae hynny’n fater i Peter misunderstanding by the leader of the Plaid Hain, nid i Charlie Falconer. Mae’r Cymru group in the House of Commons, as camsyniad hwn yn ganlyniad i he had not looked at the provisions of the gamddealltwriaeth gan arweinydd grŵp Plaid Ministerial Names Act 1979. Therefore there Cymru yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, gan nad oedd is no point saying ‘we are in doubt about this wedi edrych ar ddarpariaethau Deddf Enwau issue having read something in The Western Gweinidogol 1979. Felly nid oes diben mewn Mail by Elfyn Llwyd MP, therefore we must dweud ‘mae gennym amheuon ynghylch y have Peter Hain here’. Just ask a question. I mater hwn ar ôl darllen rhywbeth yn The settled your doubt by saying that there is no Western Mail gan Elfyn Llwyd AS, felly change and, therefore, there is no need. rhaid inni gael Peter Hain yma’. Gofynnwch However, I will pass on your request when I gwestiwn. Atebais eich amheuon drwy receive it formally. ddweud nad oes newid ac, felly, nid oes angen hynny. Er hynny, trosglwyddaf eich cais wedi imi ei dderbyn yn ffurfiol.

26 01/07/2003

2.50 p.m.

Nick Bourne: This is an important issue Nick Bourne: Mae hyn yn fater pwysig because—although the First Minister oherwydd—er bod y Prif Weinidog yn disagrees with this—it seems that there is anghydweld â hyn—ymddengys fod doubt. It is clear that questions relating to the amheuaeth. Mae’n amlwg bod cwestiynau Richard commission and the future sy’n gysylltiedig â chomisiwn Richard a devolution of Wales are being referred to the datganoli i Gymru yn y dyfodol yn cael eu Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs, cyfeirio at y Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros rather than to the Secretary of State for Faterion Cyfansoddiadol, yn hytrach nag at Wales. If that is the case, there is doubt on Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Os felly y this matter and it needs to be clarified. The mae, mae amheuaeth ynghylch y mater hwn y First Minister said that he is able to clear up mae’n rhaid ei egluro. Dywedodd y Prif these doubts. Will he clear up the question of Weinidog ei fod yn gallu ymdrin â’r why such letters are being referred to the amheuon hyn. A wnaiff egluro pam y mae Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs llythyrau o’r fath yn cael eu cyfeirio at yr for response rather than to the Secretary of Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Faterion State of Wales? If he cannot answer that, Cyfansoddiadol i’w hateb yn hytrach nag at Peter Hain must come to the Assembly to Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru? Os na all ateb explain why it is happening. hynny, rhaid i Peter Hain ddod i’r Cynulliad i egluro pam y mae hynny’n digwydd.

The First Minister: I understand that one Y Prif Weinidog: Deallaf fod un clerc wedi clerk made one error on one occasion and gwneud un camgymeriad ar un achlysur a that that has since been put right. It is as bod hynny wedi’i gywiro bellach. Mae cyn simple as that. symled â hynny.

Cwestiwn Brys Urgent Question

Colli Swyddi yn Hoya Lens UK Cyf Hoya Lens UK Ltd Job Losses

The Presiding Officer: Under Standing Y Llywydd: O dan reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.31, Order No. 6.31, I have accepted a question of yr wyf wedi derbyn cwestiwn brys sy’n urgent public importance to be answered by ymwneud â mater o bwys cyhoeddus i’w ateb the Minister for Economic Development and gan y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Transport. Economaidd a Thrafnidiaeth.

Janet Ryder: Will the Minister for Janet Ryder: A wnaiff y Gweinidog dros Economic Development and Transport make Ddatblygu Economaidd a Thrafnidiaeth a statement on the announcement that more ddatganiad ar y cyhoeddiad y bydd 200 o than 200 jobs will be lost at Hoya Lens UK swyddi yn cael eu colli yn Hoya Lens UK Ltd, a lens-making factory in Wrexham? Cyf yn Wrecsam? (EAQ26927) (EAQ26927)

The Minister for Economic Development Y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd and Transport (Andrew Davies): I am a Thrafnidiaeth (Andrew Davies): Yr wyf deeply concerned by the announcement made yn bryderus iawn ynghylch y cyhoeddiad gan by Hoya Lens UK Ltd yesterday that it is to Hoya Lens UK Cyf ddoe y bydd yn cael shed 200 of the 450 jobs at its Wrexham gwared â 200 o’r 450 o swyddi yn ei waith yn plant. The announcement came as a complete Wrecsam. Yr oedd y cyhoeddiad yn gwbl shock to all concerned. I understand that local annisgwyl i bawb. Deallaf nad y rheolwyr management did not take the decision and lleol a wnaeth y penderfyniad ac na ellid ei that it was irreversible. wrthdroi.

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Hoya Lens UK Ltd’s workforce has played a Mae gweithlu Hoya Lens UK Cyf wedi crucial role in delivering significant chwarae rhan hollbwysig wrth sicrhau performance improvements at the plant and gwelliannau sylweddol yn y perfformiad yn y deserves recognition for that. However, gwaith ac mae’n haeddu ei gydnabod am unfortunately, the improvements could not hynny. Serch hynny, gwaetha’r modd, ni bridge the gap between the UK unit cost and allai’r gwelliannau gau’r bwlch rhwng cost yr that of other parts of the world. Team Wales uned yn y DU a’r hyn a geir mewn rhannau is ready to assist affected workers. A fully eraill o’r byd. Mae Tîm Cymru yn barod i co-ordinated response involving the Welsh helpu gweithwyr a gaiff eu heffeithio. Bydd Development Agency, Jobcentre Plus and ymateb cwbl gydlynol a fydd yn cynnwys Careers Wales will ensure that appropriate Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, Canolfan Byd support is made available to help those Gwaith a Gyrfa Cymru yn sicrhau y bydd affected to regain work quickly or to access cymorth priodol ar gael i’r rhai a effeithir fel training opportunities. y gallant gael gwaith newydd yn fuan neu gael cyfleoedd i hyfforddi.

I understand that the decision to shed these Deallaf fod y penderfyniad i gael gwared â’r 200 jobs is part of a larger rationalisation 200 o swyddi yn rhan o ymarfer rhesymoli exercise designed to develop Hoya Lens UK ehangach sydd â’r bwriad o ddatblygu gallu Ltd’s global manufacturing and supply chain Hoya Lens UK Cyf o ran gweithgynhyrchu capability. The move will allow the byd-eang a’r gadwyn gyflenwi. Bydd y Wrexham plant to focus on UK market symudiad hwn yn caniatáu i’r gwaith yn development, for which Hoya Lens UK Ltd Wrecsam ganolbwyntio ar ddatblygu’r has long-term plans. The clarity brought by farchnad yn y DU, y mae gan Hoya Lens UK this change will enable the company to better Cyf gynlluniau tymor hir ar ei chyfer. Bydd develop those plans. It will use an yr eglurder a geir drwy’r newid hwn yn outplacement company to assist its staff and galluogi’r cwmni i hwyluso’r cynlluniau will vigorously pursue employment hynny ymhellach. Bydd yn defnyddio cwmni opportunities with local companies. all-leoli i helpu ei staff ac yn chwilio’n egnïol am gyfleoedd gwaith gyda chwmnïau lleol.

Janet Ryder: I share your concerns, Janet Ryder: Rhannaf eich pryderon, yn especially for those people in Wrexham who enwedig ynghylch y rhai yn Wrecsam a fydd will lose these jobs. Unfortunately, this is the yn colli’r swyddi hyn. Gwaetha’r modd, hon latest in a series of blows to the yw’r ddiweddaraf mewn cyfres o ergydion i manufacturing industry and to manufacturing ddiwydiant gweithgynhyrchu a swyddi jobs in the Wrexham area. In this year alone, gweithgynhyrchu yn ardal Wrecsam. Yn y Wrexham has lost 500 jobs and now a further flwyddyn hon yn unig, mae Wrecsam wedi 200 jobs will be lost. Ruabon, which is a colli 500 o swyddi ac, yn awr, collir 200 o small area of Wrexham, has already lost 100 swyddi’n rhagor. Mae Rhiwabon, sy’n ardal jobs in Brother Industries UK Ltd, and Hoya fach yn Wrecsam, eisoes wedi colli 100 o Lens UK Ltd has now announced these swyddi yn Brother Industries UK Cyf, ac mae further 244 job losses. The company employs Hoya Lens UK Cyf bellach wedi cyhoeddi 464 people in Wrexham, meaning that over colli’r 244 o swyddi hyn ar ben hynny. Mae’r 200 people will still be employed at that site. cwmni’n cyflogi 464 o bobl yn Wrecsam, Wrexham County Borough Council wants an sy’n golygu y bydd dros 200 o bobl yn dal i assurance that you will do everything gael eu cyflogi ar y safle hwnnw. Mae possible to maintain those jobs in Wrexham Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam yn so that the other half of the plant, and its jobs, dymuno cael sicrwydd gennych y gwnewch remain. A crucial way of doing that is to bopeth y gellir i gadw’r swyddi hynny yn consider Wrexham’s assisted area status. I Wrecsam fel y bydd hanner arall y gwaith, a’i am sure that you are aware that Wrexham is swyddi, yn parhau. Un modd hanfodol i the only area in Wales not to receive regional wneud hynny yw ystyried statws Wrecsam selective assistance. Even the Vale of fel rhanbarth cymorth. Yr wyf yn sicr y

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Glamorgan, which has no Communities First gwyddoch mai Wrecsam yw’r unig ardal yng areas, receives regional selective assistance, Nghymru nad yw’n cael cymorth rhanbarthol and yet Wrexham, which has many such dewisol. Mae hyd yn oed Bro Morgannwg, areas, does not receive it. Will you give nad oes ganddi unrhyw ardaloedd priority to considering granting Wrexham Cymunedau yn Gyntaf, yn cael cymorth assisted area status to support its rhanbarthol dewisol, ac eto nid yw Wrecsam manufacturing industries and to try to stem yn ei gael, er bod ganddi lawer o ardaloedd this steady stream of job losses from an area o’r fath. A wnewch roi blaenoriaeth i ystyried that desperately depends on them? rhoi statws rhanbarth cymorth i Wrecsam er mwyn cynorthwyo ei diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu a cheisio rhoi pen ar y llif cyson hwn o golledion swyddi o ardal sy’n dibynnu arnynt yn ddirfawr?

Andrew Davies: As I said in my response to Andrew Davies: Fel y dywedais yn fy your first question, this decision took ymateb i’ch cwestiwn cyntaf, yr oedd y everybody by surprise, including the penderfyniad hwn yn gwbl annisgwyl i bawb, management, the workforce, the WDA, and gan gynnwys y rheolwyr, y gweithlu, y my officials and me. As I indicated, we will WDA, a’m swyddogion a minnau. Fel y hold discussions with the company about its nodais, byddwn yn cynnal trafodaethau â’r future plans. Hoya Lens UK Ltd is cwmni ynghylch ei gynlluniau ar gyfer y concentrating on its UK market, rather than dyfodol. Mae Hoya Lens UK Cyf yn on the wider global market. Qualification for canolbwyntio ar ei farchnad yn y DU, yn regional selective assistance, and assisted hytrach nag ar y farchnad fyd-eang. Mae area status is based on gross domestic cymhwyster i gael cymorth rhanbarthol product per capita levels and unemployment. dewisol, a statws rhanbarth cymorth, yn At present, unemployment in Wrexham, and seiliedig ar lefelau o gynnyrch mewnwladol in north-east Wales in general, is at a crynswth y pen a diweithdra. Ar hyn o bryd, historically low level. Unemployment has mae diweithdra yn Wrecsam, ac yn y dropped by 26 per cent in Wrexham since Gogledd-ddwyrain yn gyffredinol, ar ei isaf 1999; that is a significant drop. This is ers cyfnod maith. Mae diweithdra wedi obviously bad news for the employees at gostwng o 26 y cant yn Wrecsam ers 1999; Hoya who will be made redundant. However, mae hynny’n ostyngiad sylweddol. Mae’n I am confident that, working with Team amlwg bod hyn yn newyddion drwg i’r Wales partners, we can assist those being gweithwyr yn Hoya a gaiff eu diswyddo. Er made redundant to find alternative work, if hynny, yr wyf yn ffyddiog, drwy weithio they wish, or training opportunities. gyda’n partneriaid yn Nhîm Cymru, y byddwn yn gallu helpu’r rhai a ddiswyddir i ddod o hyd i waith arall, os dymunant hynny, neu gyfleoedd i hyfforddi.

Mark Isherwood: This is devastating news Mark Isherwood: Mae hyn yn newyddion for the over 200 people concerned and their trychinebus i’r 200 a rhagor o bobl a effeithir families and communities. My heart—and a’u teuluoedd a’u cymunedau. Yr wyf fi— those of my colleagues, I am sure—goes out a’m cyd-Aelodau, yr wyf yn siŵr—yn to them at this terrible time. This follows the cydymdeimlo â hwy ar yr adeg ofnadwy hon. warning made last month, I believe, by Digby Mae hyn yn dilyn y rhybudd a wnaed y mis Jones, the director general of the diwethaf, yr wyf yn credu, gan Digby Jones, Confederation of British Industry, that north cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol Cydffederasiwn Wales businesses would face failure in future Diwydiant Prydain, y byddai busnesau yn y because of Government policy. It has also Gogledd yn wynebu methiant yn y dyfodol been suggested that the refusal to extend the oherwydd polisïau’r Llywodraeth. Wrexham bypass—or, I should say, the Awgrymwyd hefyd fod y gwrthodiad i unacceptable delays in its extension—played ymestyn ffordd osgoi Wrecsam—neu, dylwn a part in Hoya’s decision. Hoya had ddweud, yr oedi annerbyniol cyn ei

29 01/07/2003 championed the extension of the bypass. As I hymestyn—wedi chwarae rhan ym have mentioned previously, we must also mhenderfyniad Hoya. Yr oedd Hoya wedi remember that the profitability of companies dadlau dros ymestyn y ffordd osgoi. Fel y in Wales has fallen by 90 per cent over the dywedais o’r blaen, rhaid inni gofio hefyd last five years. Dun and Bradstreet has fod proffidioldeb cwmnïau yng Nghymru pointed out that business failures have wedi gostwng o 90 y cant dros y pum increased in Wales by more than they have in mlynedd diwethaf. Mae Dun and Bradstreet England. It also refers to the falling average wedi tynnu sylw at y ffaith bod y cynnydd yn GDP per capita and average incomes in nifer y busnesau sy’n methu yn fwy yng Wales. No part of Wales, even prosperous Nghymru nag ydyw yn Lloegr. Cyfeiria areas such as north-east Wales, is immune. hefyd at y gostyngiad yn y CMC y pen ac What action will the Government take to mewn incwm ar gyfartaledd yng Nghymru. prevent these sorts of recurrences by finally Nid oes yr un rhan o Gymru, hyd yn oed sitting down with business in Wales and ardaloedd llewyrchus megis y Gogledd- listening to what it needs? ddwyrain, yn rhydd oddi wrth hyn. Pa gamau a gymer y Llywodraeth i atal digwyddiadau o’r fath eto drwy eistedd gyda busnes yng Nghymru a gwrando ar ei anghenion?

Andrew Davies: Insofar as I could follow Andrew Davies: I’r graddau y gallwn ddilyn that question and the reasoning behind it, as I y cwestiwn hwnnw a’r rhesymu a oedd yn said in my response to Janet Ryder, the sail iddo, fel y dywedais yn fy ymateb i Janet reason given by the company for shedding Ryder, y rheswm a roddwyd gan y cwmni these jobs was that unit labour costs are much dros gael gwared â’r swyddi hyn oedd bod higher in Wrexham than they are in the far costau llafur yr uned yn fwy o lawer yn east, and in Thailand, where Hoya is to Wrecsam nag y maent yn y dwyrain pell, ac develop its facility. How that can be linked to yng Ngwlad y Thai, lle y mae Hoya yn an alleged delay in the Wrexham bypass is datblygu ei gyfleuster. Ni allaf ddeall sut y beyond me. We are talking about gellir cysylltu hynny ag oedi honedig cyn macroeconomics. You are talking about cwblhau ffordd osgoi Wrecsam. Yr ydym microeconomics on the most micro scale, ni’n sôn am facroeconomeg. Yr ydych chi’n Mark. We must bear in mind that the sôn am feicroeconomig ar y raddfa leiaf un, manufacturing sector is undergoing major Mark. Rhaid inni gofio bod y sector changes. We cannot, and should not, compete gweithgynhyrchu’n profi newidiadau mawr. on the basis of labour costs. Labour costs in Ni allwn, ac ni ddylem, gystadlu ar sail central Europe, north Africa, and the far east costau llafur. Mae costau llafur yng nghanol are a tenth of what they are in Wales. We Ewrop, gogledd Affrica, a’r dwyrain pell yn must compete on the basis of innovation and ddegfed ran o’r hyn ydynt yng Nghymru. high-value-added products. We will do all Rhaid inni gystadlu ar sail arloesi a that we can to work with Hoya, as with any chynhyrchion â llawer o werth ychwanegol. other company in Wales, to assist it in the Gwnawn bopeth a allwn i weithio gyda Hoya, challenges faced by manufacturers across the yn yr un modd ag unrhyw gwmni arall yng UK. This is not just an issue for Wales—the Nghymru, i’w helpu i wynebu’r heriau a fall in manufacturing jobs in Wales has been ddaw i ran gweithgynhyrchwyr ledled y DU. broadly equivalent to that in England and Nid mater i Gymru’n unig yw hwn—bu’r Scotland. These challenges are not being gostyngiad yn nifer y swyddi faced by Welsh companies, or the Welsh gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru yn weddol economy, alone. debyg i’r hyn a fu yn Lloegr a’r Alban. Nid cwmnïau yng Nghymru, neu economi Cymru, yw’r unig rai sy’n wynebu’r heriau hyn.

Eleanor Burnham: As someone who has Eleanor Burnham: Fel un a gafodd brofiad had personal experience of redundancy personol o ddiswyddo drwy ddiswyddiad fy through my husband’s being made redundant, ngŵr, cydymdeimlaf â gweithwyr Hoya. Mae

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I sympathise with the Hoya employees. This hyn yn nifer fawr o ddiswyddiadau. Mae is a large number of redundancies. Other Aelodau eraill wedi cyfeirio at y ffaith bod Members have alluded to the fact that Wrecsam yn gwneud yn dda, a bod ganddi Wrexham is doing well, with low ddiweithdra isel. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni unemployment. However, we need your gael sicrwydd gennych, Weinidog, y assurance, Minister, that you will consider gwnewch ystyried ansawdd swyddi ac ym the quality of jobs and where those leaving mhle y caiff y rhai sy’n gadael Hoya arfer eu Hoya can use their high level of skills. You hyfedredd. Dywedwch ein bod yn sôn am say that we are talking about feicroeconomeg. Byddwch yn cofio fy mod microeconomics. You will remember that I wedi gofyn yn ddiweddar i chi, ar gais recently asked you, at the behest of Wrexham Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam, ystyried County Borough Council, to seriously o ddifrif ddeuoli’r ffordd i’r de o Wrecsam i consider dualling the road to the south of gysylltu â’r M54, yr M6, ac yn y blaen. Oni Wrexham to link into the M54, the M6, and ddylech roi rhagor o bwysau ar Lywodraeth y so on. Should you not put pressure on the UK DU i wneud rhagor i ymdrin â’r dirwasgiad? Government to do more to help address the Os collwn y cwbl o’n sylfaen recession? If we lose all our manufacturing gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru, bydd base in Wales, we will have an unbalanced gennym economi anghytbwys. economy.

Andrew Davies: The UK and Welsh Andrew Davies: Nid yw economïau’r DU a economies are not in recession. The term is Chymru mewn dirwasgiad. Defnyddir y gair being used loosely—by the Conservative yn llac—gan lefarydd y Ceidwadwyr ar yr economic spokesman in particular. However, economi yn enwedig. Fodd bynnag, nid yw neither the Welsh nor British economies are economi Cymru nac economi Prydain mewn in recession. The economy has performed dirwasgiad. Mae’r economi wedi better than that of most of our competitors— perfformio’n well na rhai’r rhan fwyaf o’r Germany and most other European Union rhai sy’n cystadlu â ni—yr Almaen a’r countries, as well as America and Japan— mwyafrif o wledydd eraill yr Undeb despite difficult world trading conditions. Ewropeaidd, yn ogystal ag America a Siapan—er gwaethaf yr amodau masnachu anodd drwy’r byd.

3.00 p.m.

The manufacturing sector has gone through Mae’r sector gweithgynhyrchu wedi profi major changes over the past few years. Many newidiadau mawr dros y blynyddoedd manufacturing jobs have been lost in Wales. diwethaf. Collwyd llawer o swyddi However, many have been created—around gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru. Er hynny, one in seven of the jobs in manufacturing mae llawer wedi’u creu—mae tua un o bob have been created over the past year. We will saith o’r swyddi gweithgynhyrchu wedi’u work with companies and industrial sectors, creu dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Gweithiwn and the electronics, automotive and aerospace gyda chwmnïau a sectorau diwydiannol, a’r fora, to help them through those difficulties. fforymau electronig, moduron ac awyrofod, We have invested a significant amount of i’w helpu i drechu’r anawsterau hynny. Yr money in Wrexham, in the Brymbo site ydym wedi buddsoddi swm sylweddol o arian development and the new hotel development yn Wrecsam, yn y datblygiad ar safle there. Although Wrexham does not have Brymbo a’r datblygiad gwesty newydd yn y assisted area status, the Team Wales fan honno. Er nad oes gan Wrecsam statws agencies, and the Assembly Government, rhanbarth cymorth, mae asiantaethau Tîm have given it substantial support. That is Cymru, a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, wedi rhoi among the reasons why unemployment is at cymorth sylweddol iddi. Mae hynny’n un o’r its lowest level in Wrexham, as it is in the rhesymau y mae diweithdra ar ei lefel isaf yn rest of Wales, since the mid 1970s. Wrecsam, fel y mae yng ngweddill Cymru, ers canol y 1970au.

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The Presiding Officer: Order. We are Y Llywydd: Trefn. Yr ydym yn mynd yn running out of time, but, unfortunately, the brin o amser, ond, yn anffodus, cyfeiriodd y Minister mentioned Alun Cairns; I call Alun Gweinidog at Alun Cairns; galwaf ar Alun i to speak. siarad.

Alun Cairns: Thank you, Presiding Officer, Alun Cairns: Diolch i chi, Lywydd, am y for the opportunity to ask the Minister to cyfle i ofyn i’r Gweinidog ailadrodd yr hyn a repeat what he said about the state of ddywedodd am gyflwr gweithgynhyrchu yng manufacturing in Wales. The jobs being lost Nghymru. Mae’r swyddi a gollir yn swyddi are high-quality manufacturing jobs, and gweithgynhyrchu o ansawdd da, ac maent yn follow a string of other losses. This is a dilyn cyfres o golledion eraill. Mae hyn yn continuing trend; manufacturing jobs are duedd parhaus; collir swyddi being lost time and again. Manufacturing gweithgynhyrchu dro ar ôl tro. Mae employees face a difficult situation. If the gweithwyr mewn gweithgynhyrchu’n Government does not accept reality and does wynebu sefyllfa anodd. Os na wnaiff y not admit that manufacturing is in difficulty Gweinidog dderbyn y gwir a chydnabod bod and is, and has been, in recession for some gweithgynhyrchu mewn trafferthion a’i fod time, what hope can it offer those employees? yn profi dirwasgiad ers cryn amser, pa obaith What hope can the Government offer the y gall ei gynnig i’r gweithwyr hynny? Pa employees being made redundant if it is not obaith y gall y Llywodraeth ei gynnig i’r prepared to introduce policies? It cannot gweithwyr a ddiswyddir os nad yw’n barod i introduce the right policies until it accepts gyflwyno polisïau? Ni fydd modd iddi reality. If I wanted to take political advantage gyflwyno’r polisïau iawn hyd nes y bydd yn of the situation, I would be happy for the derbyn y gwir. Pe byddwn am wneud elw Minister to say again that manufacturing is gwleidyddol o’r sefyllfa, byddwn yn fodlon not in recession, because, every time he says i’r Gweinidog ddweud eto nad yw it, business in Wales just laughs. gweithgynhyrchu mewn dirwasgiad, oherwydd, bob tro y dywed hynny, mae busnes yng Nghymru’n chwerthin.

Andrew Davies: The Presiding Officer used Andrew Davies: Defnyddiodd y Llywydd y the word ‘unfortunate’ when you were called gair ‘anffodus’ pan alwyd chi i siarad, Alun. to speak, Alun. You keep repeating the same Yr ydych yn dal i ailadrodd yr un mantra. Ni mantra. You never say what needs to be done ddywedwch byth beth y mae angen ei wneud or what policies we need to deliver the neu ba bolisïau y mae arnom eu hangen i gael nirvana that you keep promising. Many y baradwys yr ydych yn ei haddo. Mae llawer Members remember the 1980s, when your o Aelodau’n cofio’r 1980au, pan oedd eich party was in power, when manufacturing was plaid chi mewn grym, pan ddinistriwyd decimated and when there were record gweithgynhyrchu a phan oedd diweithdra ar unemployment levels. We now have record ei uchaf erioed. Bellach mae gennym y employment levels and the lowest lefelau uchaf o gyflogaeth a gafwyd erioed unemployment levels since the mid 1970s. a’r lefelau isaf o ddiweithdra ers canol y 1970au.

The Presiding Officer: I wish to point out Y Llywydd: Dymunaf nodi nad y ffaith bod that it was not unfortunate that Alun Cairns Alun Cairns wedi’i alw oedd yn anffodus, was called; it was unfortunate that I felt ond y ffaith fy mod i’n teimlo bod rhaid imi obliged to call him even though we were ei alw er ein bod yn mynd yn brin o amser. running out of time.

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Datganiad Busnes Business Statement

The Business Minister (Karen Sinclair): Y Trefnydd (Karen Sinclair): Mae dau There are two changes to this week’s newid i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Yn dilyn y business. Following today’s business datganiad busnes heddiw, bydd y Gweinidog statement, the Minister for Social Justice and dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ac Adfywio Regeneration will make a statement on the yn gwneud datganiad ar ddatganoli’r devolution of the fire service. The motion to gwasanaeth tân. Ni fydd y cynnig i approve three items of subordinate legislation gymeradwyo tair eitem o is-ddeddfwriaeth o under Standing Order No. 22.25 will not be dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25 yn cael ei proposed today: those items will now be gynnig heddiw: ceir dadl ar yr eitemau hynny debated separately in Plenary on Tuesday 8 ar wahân bellach yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar July. In addition to the business shown on the ddydd Mawrth 8 Gorffennaf. Yn ogystal â’r draft three-week business statement, which busnes a ddangosir ar y datganiad busnes can be found on the Chamberweb under drafft tair wythnos, y gellir ei weld ar we’r supporting papers, there will be a motion on Siambr dan bapurau ategol, bydd cynnig ar Wednesday 9 July to approve the Plant ddydd Mercher 9 Gorffennaf i gymeradwyo Protection Products (Amendment) Rheoliadau Cynhyrchion Diogelu Planhigion Regulations 2003. (Diwygio) 2003.

Finally, the Deputy Presiding Officer Yn olaf, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd determined today, under Standing Order No. heddiw, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad 22.5, that the following Orders need not be oes angen cyfeirio’r Gorchmynion a ganlyn i referred to a Subject Committee for extended Bwyllgor Pwnc i’w hystyried yn helaethach: consideration: the Feeding Stuffs, the Rheoliadau Porthiant, Porthiant (Samplu a Feeding Stuffs (Sampling and Analysis) and Dadansoddi) a Phorthiant (Gorfodi) the Feeding Stuffs (Enforcement) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003, Rheoliadau (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Diogelu’r Arfordir (Hysbysiadau) (Cymru) Coast Protection (Notices) (Wales) 2003, Rheoliadau’r Rhaglen Weithredu ar Regulations 2003, the Action Programme for gyfer Parthau Perygl Nitradau (Diwygio) Nitrate Vulnerable Zones (Amendment) (Cymru) 2003, Gorchymyn Iechyd (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Plant Health Planhigion (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003, (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2003, the Gorchymyn Diogelu Anifeiliaid Protection of Animals (Anaesthetics) (Anesthetyddion) Diwygio (Cymru) 2003, Amendment (Wales) Order 2003, the Gorchymyn Tai (Hawl i Brynu) Housing (Right to Buy) (Priority of Charges) (Blaenoriaethau Taliadau) (Cymru) 2003, (Wales) Order 2003, the Home Loss Rheoliadau Taliadau Colli Cartref (Symiau Payments (Prescribed Amounts) (Wales) Rhagnodedig) (Cymru) 2003, Gorchymyn Regulations 2003, the Prohibition of Fishing Gwahardd Pysgota â Threillrwydi Lluosog with Multiple Trawls (Wales) Order 2003, (Cymru) 2003, Gorchymyn Deddf Safonau the Care Standards Act 2000 Gofal 2000 (Cychwyn Rhif 12) (Cymru) (Commencement No. 12) (Wales) Order 2003, Rheoliadau Addysg (Lleoedd a 2003, the Education (Assisted Places) Gynorthwyir) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003, (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Rheoliadau Sgîl-gynhyrchion Anifeiliaid Animal By-products (Identification) (Adnabod) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003 a (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 and Rheoliadau Ansawdd Aer (Osôn) (Cymru) the Air Quality (Ozone) (Wales) Regulations 2003. 2003.

I hope that we can get through all our Gobeithiaf y bydd modd inni fynd drwy’r business today but, if that does not prove holl fusnes sydd gennym heddiw ond, os na possible, I am grateful to Jonathan for fydd, yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Jonathan am offering to defer the Conservative minority gynnig gohirio dadl plaid leiafrifol y

33 01/07/2003 party debate to accommodate us. Ceidwadwyr er mwyn ein cynorthwyo.

Y Llywydd: A oes gwrthwynebiadau i’r The Presiding Officer: Are there any datganiad busnes drafft? Gwelaf fod o leiaf objections to the draft business statement? I 10 gwrthwynebiad. O dan Reol Sefydlog see that there are at least 10 objections. Rhif 5.4, galwaf ar y Trefnydd i gynnig y Under Standing Order No. 5.4, I call the datganiad busnes yn ffurfiol. Business Minister to formally propose the business statement.

The Business Minister (Karen Sinclair): I Y Trefnydd (Karen Sinclair): Cynigiaf fod propose that the National Assembly for Wales adopts the Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn derbyn y business statement. datganiad busnes.

Elin Jones: Drefnydd, hoffwn wneud cais Elin Jones: Business Minister, I formally ffurfiol am ddadl ar gynlluniau Llywodraeth request a debate on the Westminster San Steffan i ailwladoli’r cronfeydd Government’s plans to repatriate structural strwythurol. Bu i’n rheolwr busnes wneud funds. Our business manager requested that cais am hynny yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor in this morning’s Business Committee Busnes y bore yma. Ymddengys i mi, o’r meeting. It seems to me, from the forward flaenraglen waith, fod cyfleoedd i gynnal y work programme, that there are opportunities ddadl bwysig hon dros yr wythnosau nesaf. to hold this important debate over the next Gadewch imi egluro pam yr wyf yn gofyn am few weeks. Let me explain why making this hyn. Mae effaith cynlluniau Llywodraeth San request. The Westminster Government’s Steffan yn bellgyrhaeddol ar Gymru. Mae’n plans have far-reaching consequences for cynnig na ddylai’r Deyrnas Gyfunol fod yn Wales. It proposes that the United Kingdom gymwys am gronfeydd strwythurol o’r should not be eligible for structural funds Undeb Ewropeaidd ar ôl 2006, ac y byddai from the European Union after 2006, and that Llywodraeth San Steffan yn ymgymryd â the Westminster Government should adopt a pholisi rhanbarthol gyda’r Trysorlys regional policy, with the current Treasury presennol yn ymrwymo i ddarparu cyllid committing to match current European Union cyfatebol i gyllid presennol yr Undeb funding to Objective 1 areas for the initial Ewropeaidd i ardaloedd Amcan 1 am y period. How can any Government make a cyfnod cychwynnol. Sut y gall unrhyw commitment that lasts longer than that Lywodraeth wneud ymrwymiad sy’n para’n Government’s term of office? hwy na thymor etholiadol y Llywodraeth honno?

Mae’r mater eisoes yn ddadleuol yng The matter has already caused controversy in Nghymru. Mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Wales. The Welsh Local Government Leol Cymru yn gwrthwynebu cynlluniau Association clearly opposes the United Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn glir, tra Kingdom Government’s proposals, while it ymddengys o gyfweliadau teledu fod appears from television interviews that the Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn dilyn agenda Assembly Government is slavishly following Gordon Brown yn slafaidd. Rhoi Cymru’n Gordon Brown’s agenda. It is important to gyntaf sy’n bwysig, ac mae record yr Undeb put Wales first, and the European Union’s Ewropeaidd ar bolisi rhanbarthol llawer yn track record on regional policy is far better well nag un unrhyw Lywodraeth yn San than that of any Westminster Government, Steffan, yn enwedig o ystyried diffygion particularly given the shortcomings of the fformiwla Barnett. Barnett formula.

Rhaid i’r Cynulliad llawn gael trafod a The full Assembly must be allowed to debate phleidleisio ar fater mor bellgyrhaeddol â and vote on such a far-reaching matter as hyn. Mae’r amserlen yn dynn, felly gofynnaf this. The timetable is tight, so I request a

34 01/07/2003 am ddadl o fewn yr wythnosau nesaf; bydd debate within the next few weeks; the United Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn trafod y Kingdom Government will discuss the matter mater ar ôl 4 Gorffennaf. Os na chawn y after 4 July. If we are not given the chance to cyfle i drafod mater mor bwysig ac mor discuss a matter as important and as sylfaenol â hyn i Gymru, a bod yn llais dros fundamental to Wales, and to be a voice for fuddiannau Cymru, beth yw pwrpas cael Wales’s interests, what is the purpose of Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? having a National Assembly?

Jonathan Morgan: First, we object to the Jonathan Morgan: Yn gyntaf, business statement on the grounds that the gwrthwynebwn y datganiad busnes am na Government will not bring forward its wnaiff y Llywodraeth ddwyn ei blaenraglen forward work programme for debate until waith gerbron i’w drafod hyd fis Medi. September. It is diabolical that we have been Mae’n warthus ein bod yn ein hôl ers mis back since May and have not had a forward Mai ac heb gael blaenraglen waith gan y work programme from the Government. We Llywodraeth. Rhaid inni ddisgwyl bellach tan must now wait until the end of the summer ddiwedd toriad yr haf am hynny, sy’n fisoedd recess for that, many months after the lawer ar ôl etholiadau’r Cynulliad. Assembly elections.

Secondly, in the Business Committee some Yn ail, yn y Pwyllgor Busnes rai weeks ago, the Minister gave a list of the wythnosau’n ôl, rhoddodd y Gweinidog restr business that she would try to bring forward o’r busnes y ceisiai ei ddwyn gerbron cyn before the summer recess. How much of that toriad yr haf. Pa ran o’r rhestr honno y bu list have you been able to incorporate into modd ichi ei chynnwys yn eich datganiad your draft business statement, Minister? busnes drafft, Weinidog? Ymddengys bod There seem to be glaring omissions. pethau amlwg wedi’u gadael allan.

Thirdly, we discussed the periodic timetable Yn drydydd, gwnaethom drafod y datganiad statement this morning. We feel that you ar yr amserlen gyfnodol y bore yma. should bring that forward before the July Teimlwn y dylech ei rhoi gerbron cyn y recess, so that the Committees sitting from toriad ym mis Gorffennaf, fel y bydd y September know exactly when they will Pwyllgorau sy’n eistedd o fis Medi ymlaen meet, and voluntary and other external yn gwybod yn union pa bryd y byddant yn organisations know the Committees’ autumn cwrdd, ac fel y gŵyr cyrff gwirfoddol a and winter timetable. Will you confirm that chyrff allanol eraill amserlen y Pwyllgorau ar that will be debated and voted upon in gyfer yr hydref a’r gaeaf. A wnewch Plenary before the summer recess? gadarnhau y bydd dadl a phleidlais ar hynny yn y Cyfarfod Llawn cyn toriad yr haf?

Can you confirm, Minister, that, in the A allwch gadarnhau, Weinidog, fod y Business Committee’s meeting last week, the Dirprwy Lywydd wedi’ch hysbysu yng Deputy Presiding Officer advised you that nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes yr wythnos business today was likely to be tight, and that diwethaf y byddai’r busnes ar gyfer heddiw’n the minority party debate would be put under debygol o fod yn dynn, ac y byddai’r ddadl pressure if we discussed all of the business plaid leiafrifol dan bwysau pe trafodem y scheduled for this afternoon? Will you also cwbl o’r busnes a amserlennwyd ar gyfer y confirm that I e-mailed you last week and prynhawn yma? A wnewch gadarnhau hefyd offered to withdraw the minority party debate imi anfon neges e-bost atoch yr wythnos in order to ease those time pressures, and diwethaf a chynnig tynnu’n ôl y ddadl plaid suggested that we could hold that debate leiafrifol er mwyn lleddfu’r pwysau hynny ar another time, preferably before the summer amser, ac awgrymu y gallem gynnal y ddadl recess? I did not receive a reply from you, honno rywbryd arall, cyn toriad yr haf, os which displays a lack of courtesy. That offer oedd modd? Ni chefais ateb gennych, ac mae was made in good faith, yet I heard nothing hynny’n dangos diffyg cwrteisi. Gwnaed y until today. The motion has been tabled and cynnig yn ddidwyll, ac eto ni chlywais ddim

35 01/07/2003 withdrawing it now would be difficult. hyd heddiw. Mae’r cynnig wedi’i gyflwyno However, we will consider doing so if the ac anodd fyddai ei dynnu’n ôl yn awr. Fodd pressure on time is such that the session bynnag, ystyriwn wneud hynny os bydd would overrun. The practices adopted by the cymaint o bwysau ar amser fel y byddai’r Minister are somewhat sloppy. If the Minister sesiwn yn rhedeg yn hwyr. Mae’r arferion a ensures more efficient practices in future, ddilynir gan y Gweinidog braidd yn ddi- perhaps we will not face difficulties such as drefn. Os bydd y Gweinidog yn sicrhau those we face this afternoon. arferion mwy effeithlon yn y dyfodol, efallai na fyddwn yn wynebu anawsterau fel y rhai a wynebwn y prynhawn yma.

3.10 p.m.

The Presiding Officer: I draw Jonathan Y Llywydd: Tynnaf sylw Jonathan Morgan, Morgan’s attention, and direct the Business a chyfeiriaf y Trefnydd yn unol â hynny, at Minister accordingly, to Standing Order No. Reol Sefydlog Rhif 13.5, sy’n ymwneud â’r 13.5, which relates to the Business Pwyllgor Busnes. Dywed y Rheol Sefydlog Committee. The Standing Order states that

‘The Committee shall meet each week that ‘Bydd y Pwyllgor yn cyfarfod bob wythnos y the Assembly holds a plenary meeting. It bydd y Cynulliad yn cynnal cyfarfod llawn. shall meet in private.’ Yn breifat y bydd yn cyfarfod.’

Jenny Randerson: The Welsh Liberal Jenny Randerson: Bydd grŵp Democratiaid Democrat group will oppose the business Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn gwrthwynebu’r statement for the following reasons. First, we datganiad busnes am y rhesymau a ganlyn. agree with Elin Jones’s comments. At last Yn gyntaf, cytunwn â sylwadau Elin Jones. week’s joint meeting of the Committee on Yn y cyfarfod ar y cyd yr wythnos diwethaf European and External Affairs and the o’r Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Economic Development and Transport Allanol a’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd a Committee, I was pleased to hear the First Thrafnidiaeth, yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed y Minister say that a debate on repatriation and Prif Weinidog yn dweud y byddid yn cynnal associated issues—which could result in dadl ar ailwladoli a materion cysylltiedig—a Wales losing millions of pounds—would be allai beri i Gymru golli miliynau o held in Plenary. However, he did not give a bunnoedd—yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Fodd commitment that that debate would be held bynnag, ni roddodd ymrwymiad y byddid yn before the summer recess. The debate will be cynnal dadl cyn toriad yr haf. Bydd y ddadl superfluous if it is held after the recess, as the yn ddiangen os cynhelir hi ar ôl y toriad, gan Whitehall representatives present at the fod y cynrychiolwyr o Whitehall a oedd yn meeting made it clear that the UK bresennol yn y cyfarfod wedi rhoi ar ddeall y Government would respond to byddai Llywodraeth y DU yn ymateb i representations by September. We would be sylwadau erbyn mis Medi. Byddem yn putting in our two-pennyworth well after the dweud ein pwt yn rhy hwyr o lawer pe event if we were to postpone holding the byddem yn gohirio cynnal y ddadl hyd nes ar debate until after the recess. The debate must ôl y toriad. Rhaid cynnal y ddadl fel mater be held as a matter of urgency. brys.

Secondly, there is still nothing in the business Yn ail, nid oes dim byd yn y datganiad statement about free prescriptions for the busnes byth am bresgripsiynau am ddim i rai chronically ill. The Government has â salwch cronig. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi committed to bringing forward legislation as ymrwymo i ddwyn deddfwriaeth gerbron cyn soon as possible. That has, in the past, been gynted ag y bo modd. Yn y gorffennol, interpreted as being within three months of dehonglwyd fod hynny’n golygu o fewn tri the Plenary debate on the subject. Four mis i’r ddadl ar y pwnc yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. months have passed since the Assembly Aeth pedwar mis heibio ers i’r Cynulliad

36 01/07/2003 voted in favour of a motion requesting that bleidleisio o blaid cynnig yn gofyn am that legislation be brought forward. If we do ddwyn y ddeddfwriaeth honno gerbron. Os not take our legislative decisions seriously, na chymerwn ein penderfyniadau we bring the Assembly into disrepute. deddfwriaethol o ddifrif, yr ydym yn dwyn anfri ar y Cynulliad.

Finally, it is a sad day when we must rely on Yn olaf, peth trist yw ein bod bellach yn the Conservative group to make suggestions gorfod dibynnu ar grŵp y Ceidwadwyr i roi in a minority party debate as to what should awgrymiadau mewn dadl plaid leiafrifol am be included in the Government’s programme. yr hyn y dylid ei gynnwys yn rhaglen y Although I am happy to participate in that Llywodraeth. Er fy mod yn fodlon cymryd debate this afternoon, or whenever it is held, rhan yn y ddadl honno y prynhawn yma, neu it would be better if the Government were to ba bryd bynnag y’i cynhelir, byddai’n well pe bring forward its own programme—and byddai’r Llywodraeth yn dwyn ei rhaglen ei sooner rather than later. hun gerbron—a gorau po gyntaf.

The Business Minister (Karen Sinclair): I Y Trefnydd (Karen Sinclair): Ceisiaf will try to respond to all the comments in the ymateb i’r holl sylwadau yn ôl y drefn y’u order in which they were made, although I gwnaed, er fy mod yn ymddiheuro ymlaen apologise in advance if I do not stick to the llaw os na ddaliaf at yr union drefn. exact order. The Government’s forward work Amserlennwyd dadl ar flaenraglen waith y programme has been scheduled for debate Llywodraeth yn ystod wythnos gyntaf tymor during the first week of the autumn term. Elin yr hydref. Holodd Elin a Jenny am ddadl ar and Jenny inquired about a debate on the ailwladoli cronfeydd strwythurol. repatriation of structural funds. I have been Gofynnwyd imi neilltuo amser ar gyfer y asked to allocate time for that debate before ddadl honno cyn y toriad, a gobeithiaf y bydd the recess, and I hope that it can be held modd ei chynnal yn ystod wythnos olaf y during the last week of this term. However, tymor hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n that depends on the time required to debate dibynnu ar yr amser sydd ei angen i drafod yr the subordinate legislation that has been is-ddeddfwriaeth yr amserlennwyd dadleuon scheduled for debate on 15 and 16 July. arni ar 15 a 16 Gorffennaf.

On Government business, I will not cover the Ynghylch busnes y Llywodraeth, nid af dros same ground again, Jonathan. Government yr un tir eto, Jonathan. Mae busnes y business for the next three weeks is as shown Llywodraeth ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf fel in the business statement. Business that is not y’i dangosir yn y datganiad busnes. Bydd debated before the summer recess will be busnes na thrafodir cyn toriad yr haf yn cael covered in the Government’s forward work ei gynnwys ym mlaenraglen waith y programme. I confirm that the periodic Llywodraeth. Cadarnhaf y bydd yr amserlen timetable for the autumn term will be brought gyfnodol ar gyfer tymor yr hydref yn cael ei before Plenary during the last week of this dwyn gerbron y Cyfarfod Llawn yn ystod term. Jonathan knows that, as I have already wythnos olaf y tymor hwn. Gŵyr Jonathan told him. hynny, gan fy mod wedi dweud wrtho eisoes.

Jenny inquired about free prescriptions. That Holodd Jenny am bresgripsiynau am ddim. is a manifesto commitment, and the Minister Ymrwymiad yn y maniffesto yw hwnnw, ac for Health and Social Services is currently mae’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a engaged in discussions with officials on the Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wrthi’n cynnal proposals. I assure Jenny that a statement will trafodaethau â swyddogion ar y cynigion. Yr be made, or a debate held, when the wyf yn sicrhau Jenny y gwneir datganiad, neu Government believes that the time is right. y cynhelir dadl, pan fo’r Llywodraeth yn credu bod hynny’n briodol.

Jenny Randerson and Jonathan Morgan Jenny Randerson a Jonathan Morgan a rose— godasant—

37 01/07/2003

The Presiding Officer: Order. I am afraid Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae arnaf ofn na ellir that there cannot be anything further to that. ychwanegu dim at hynny. Weithiau byddai’n Sometimes I wish that there could be; dda gennyf pe gellid; weithiau ni fyddai’n sometimes I do not. Standing Orders are clear dda gennyf hynny. Mae’r Rheolau Sefydlog in this case, in that they state that one yn glir yn yr achos hwn, gan eu bod yn Member from each party group shall be dweud y gelwir ar un Aelod o bob grŵp plaid called to speak. i siarad.

Jonathan Morgan: I request that the bell be Jonathan Morgan: Galwaf am i’r gloch gael rung. ei chanu.

The Presiding Officer: Under Standing Y Llywydd: O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.21, Order No. 6.21, at least three Members must rhaid i o leiaf dri Aelod alw am ganu’r gloch. request that the bell be rung. Do three A oes tri Aelod sy’n cefnogi’r cais? Gwelaf Members support the request? I see that they fod. do.

Cyn imi ofyn am i’r gloch gael ei chanu, Before I ask for the bell to be rung, I ask gofynnaf i’r sawl nad yw wedi diffodd ei ffôn whoever has not switched off his or her symudol—yn groes i’r Protocol ar mobile phone—in contravention of the Ymddygiad yn y Siambr—wneud hynny yn Protocol on Conduct in the Chamber—to do awr. Gall defnyddio offer electronig yn y so now. The use of electronic equipment in Siambr effeithio ar y sain, ac felly beri the Chamber can affect the sound feed, and trafferth o ran sicrhau sain pur ar gyfer y can therefore cause difficulties in terms of Cofnod a darlledu ein trafodion. ensuring a clear feed for the purposes of the Record and for broadcasting our proceedings.

Glerc, canwch y gloch. Clerk, please ring the bell.

3.20 p.m.

Cynnig: O blaid 31, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 26. Motion: For 31, Abstain 0, Against 26.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Bates, Mick Barrett, Lorraine Black, Peter Butler, Rosemary Bourne, Nick Chapman, Christine Burnham, Eleanor Cuthbert, Jeff Cairns, Alun Davidson, Jane Davies, David Davies, Andrew Davies, Glyn Dunwoody-Kneafsey, Tamsin Davies, Janet Essex, Sue Davies, Jocelyn Gibbons, Brian Francis, Lisa Gregory, Janice German, Michael Griffiths, John Graham, William Gwyther, Christine Jones, Alun Ffred Hart, Edwina Jones, Elin Hutt, Jane Jones, Helen Mary Idris Jones, Denise Jones, Ieuan Wyn James, Irene Jones, Laura Anne Jones, Ann Isherwood, Mark Jones, Carwyn Lloyd, David Law, Peter Marek, John Lewis, Huw Melding, David

38 01/07/2003

Lloyd, Val Morgan, Jonathan Mewies, Sandy Randerson, Jenny Morgan, Rhodri Ryder, Janet Neagle, Lynne Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Pugh, Alun Wood, Leanne Sargeant, Carl Sinclair, Karen Thomas, Catherine Thomas, Gwenda Williams, Brynle

Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion carried. Pwynt o Drefn Point of Order

David Davies: Point of order. [Laughter.] I David Davies: Pwynt o drefn. [Chwerthin.] think that Members may be laughing because Credaf y gallai Aelodau fod yn chwerthin am they believe that I am about to say that I y credant fy mod ar fin dweud imi voted incorrectly, but I did not. I wish to raise bleidleisio’n anghywir, ond ni wneuthum. a point of order relating to today’s questions. Dymunaf godi pwynt o drefn sy’n gysylltiedig â’r cwestiynau heddiw.

The Presiding Officer: I will take points of Y Llywydd: Derbyniaf bwyntiau o drefn ar order after the two statements that are to ôl y ddau ddatganiad sydd i ddilyn. follow.

Datganiad ar Ddatganoli’r Gwasanaeth Tân Statement on Fire Service Devolution

The Minister for Social Justice and Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Regeneration (Edwina Hart): I am pleased Cymdeithasol ac Adfywio (Edwina Hart): to report to the Assembly the UK Yr wyf yn falch o hysbysu’r Cynulliad am Government’s intention to devolve full fwriad Llywodraeth y DU i ddatganoli responsibility for firefighting and fire safety cyfrifoldeb llawn dros ymladd tân a in Wales to the National Assembly for Wales. diogelwch tân yng Nghymru i Gynulliad This intention was confirmed in yesterday’s Cenedlaethol Cymru. Cadarnhawyd y bwriad publication of the White Paper, ‘Our Fire and hwn yn y Papur Gwyn, ‘Our Fire and Rescue Rescue Service’, by the Office of the Deputy Service’, a gyhoeddwyd ddoe gan Swyddfa’r Prime Minister. Dirprwy Brif Weinidog.

Currently, responsibility for the fire service is Ar hyn o bryd, rhennir cyfrifoldeb dros y split between the Assembly and the Office of gwasanaeth tân rhwng y Cynulliad a the Deputy Prime Minister. The Welsh Swyddfa’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog. Assembly Government is responsible for the Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru sy’n gyfrifol fire service’s revenue funding, while the am gyllid refeniw’r gwasanaeth tân, tra bo Office of the Deputy Prime Minister has Swyddfa’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn responsibility for capital funding and fire gyfrifol am gyllid cyfalaf a pholisi tân. Er policy. Since 1999, we have worked hard to 1999, yr ydym wedi gweithio’n galed i ensure that the fire service is supported by the sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth tân yn cael ei current arrangements. Nevertheless, on the gynnal drwy’r trefniadau presennol. Er basis of evidence and experience, we came to hynny, ar sail tystiolaeth a phrofiad, daethom the conclusion that devolving responsibility i’r casgliad y byddai datganoli cyfrifoldeb i’r to the Assembly would make for more Cynulliad yn fodd o reoli a chyllido’r effective management of the service and its gwasanaeth yn fwy effeithiol. funding.

39 01/07/2003

A close and productive relationship has been Meithrinwyd cydberthynas agos a developed between the three Welsh fire chynhyrchiol rhwng tri awdurdod tân Cymru authorities and the Assembly. The Welsh a’r Cynulliad. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Assembly Government has sought, wherever Cymru wedi ceisio cynnwys yr awdurdodau possible, to involve the fire authorities in its tân, lle bynnag y bo modd, yn ei gwaith polisi policy work and has sought to encourage a ac wedi ceisio hybu dull cyfannol o ymdrin â holistic approach to fire safety, in particular diogelwch tân, gan feithrin yn benodol fostering the fire services’ innovative ymagwedd arloesol y gwasanaethau tân at approach to community fire safety and arson ddiogelwch tân cymunedol ac atal llosgi prevention. bwriadol.

The Assembly Government made the case for Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a gyflwynodd y change to the independent review of the fire ddadl dros newid i’r adolygiad annibynnol service chaired by Sir George Bain, which o’r gwasanaeth tân o dan gadeiryddiaeth Syr recommended devolving responsibilities George Bain, a argymhellodd ddatganoli when it reported at the end of last year. The cyfrifoldebau pan adroddodd ddiwedd y Bain review accepted our view that devolving flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Yr oedd adolygiad Bain to the Assembly of responsibility for the fire yn derbyn ein barn y byddai datganoli service would create a single line of cyfrifoldeb dros y gwasanaeth tân i’r responsibility for the fire authorities and Cynulliad yn creu llinell cyfrifoldeb sengl i’r contribute to the effective management, awdurdodau tân ac yn cyfrannu at reoli, planning, and delivery of fire services in cynllunio, a darparu gwasanaethau tân yn Wales. effeithiol yng Nghymru.

The Welsh Assembly Government does not Nid oes gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru have any plans to change the existing unrhyw fwriad i newid strwythur presennol structure of fire authorities. I believe that yr awdurdodau tân. Credaf fod dadl gryf o there is a strong case for stability. The blaid sefydlogrwydd. Lleihawyd nifer yr number of fire authorities was reduced from awdurdodau tân o wyth i dri ddim ond saith eight to three only seven years ago. mlynedd yn ôl. Bydd datganoli’n caniatáu Devolution will allow us to increase the inni hybu cydweithio rhwng yr awdurdodau collaboration between fire authorities, local tân, yr awdurdodau lleol a gwasanaethau brys authorities and other emergency services in eraill yng Nghymru. Wales.

Over the summer, Ministers and officials will Dros yr haf, bydd Gweinidogion a discuss with the UK Government the detailed swyddogion yn trafod gyda Llywodraeth y arrangements for the transfer of responsibility DU y trefniadau manwl ar gyfer for the fire service. I hope that the new trosglwyddo’r cyfrifoldeb dros y gwasanaeth arrangements will come into effect next year. tân. Gobeithiaf y bydd y trefniadau newydd This reflects a pragmatic approach to yn dod i rym y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae hyn yn devolution, when powers are transferred for a dangos agwedd bragmatig at ddatganoli, lle y purpose, on the basis of evidence that the trosglwyddir pwerau i gyflawni diben, ar sail delivery of services will be improved by tystiolaeth y bydd gwasanaethau’n cael eu devolution. darparu’n well drwy ddatganoli.

Leanne Wood: We welcome the transfer of Leanne Wood: Croesawn drosglwyddo powers in relation to the fire service from the pwerau mewn cysylltiad â’r gwasanaeth tân UK to Wales. We also welcome your o’r DU i Gymru. Yr ydym hefyd yn statement that you do not have any plans to croesawu’ch datganiad nad oes gennych further restructure the fire service. We unrhyw fwriad i ad-drefnu’r gwasanaeth tân understand that pay matters will not be ymhellach. Deallwn na chaiff materion tâl eu devolved. This is a shame, as we could have datganoli. Mae hynny’n drueni, gan y gallem had the opportunity to consider the Fire fod wedi cael y cyfle i ystyried hawliad

40 01/07/2003

Brigades Union’s claim for a fair and decent Undeb y Brigadau Tân am gyflog teg a wage for firefighters and control staff. derbyniol i ddiffoddwyr tân a staff rheoli. However, this power will remain in London. Fodd bynnag, bydd y pŵer hwn yn aros yn Llundain.

The Bain report recommends modernisation Mae adroddiad Bain yn argymell of the fire service. Modernisation, in this moderneiddio’r gwasanaeth tân. Yn yr achos case, will involve a reduction in emergency hwn, bydd moderneiddio’n golygu llai o fire cover and the closure of fire stations. wasanaethau tân brys a chau gorsafoedd tân. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales believes Mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn that there should be no reduction in credu na ddylid lleihau’r gwasanaeth brys emergency back-up, especially in rural areas wrth gefn, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd and at night. No fire stations in Wales should gwledig ac yn ystod y nos. Ni ddylid cau be closed. Will the Minister commit not to unrhyw orsafoedd tân yng Nghymru. A reduce such emergency cover and not to wnaiff y Gweinidog ymrwymo i beidio â close any fire stations in Wales? lleihau gwasanaethau brys o’r fath ac i beidio â chau unrhyw orsafoedd tân yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart: Thank you for your initial Edwina Hart: Diolch i chi am eich sylwadau remarks, welcoming the devolution of this cychwynnol, yn croesawu datganoli’r pŵer power to the Assembly; this Government has hwn i’r Cynulliad; mae’r Llywodraeth hon fought hard for that. I will discuss Wales’s wedi ymladd yn galed dros hynny. Trafodaf needs in these matters with the fire chiefs and anghenion Cymru yn y materion hyn â’r prif the fire authorities. I am mindful of the swyddogion tân a’r awdurdodau tân. Yr wyf situation regarding rural areas and the yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa o ran ardaloedd excellent service that is currently provided by gwledig a’r gwasanaeth rhagorol a ddarperir the fire brigade in Wales and its ability to ar hyn o bryd gan y frigâd dân yng Nghymru come to the rescue quickly. I will take on a’i gallu i ddod i’r adwy’n gyflym. Ystyriaf board representations before undertaking any unrhyw sylwadau a gyflwynir cyn ymgymryd changes. However, you cannot say that no ag unrhyw newidiadau. Er hynny, ni ellir fire stations will ever close, because that dweud na fydd unrhyw orsafoedd tân byth yn would put one in the situation of being a cau, gan y byddai hynny’n gwneud person yn hostage to fortune. Change could often be wystl ffawd. Gellid croesawu newid yn aml welcomed because there might be a new fire gan y gellid cael gorsaf dân newydd mewn station located elsewhere. Therefore, it is man arall. Gan hynny, mae’n bwysig important to consult on this matter with all ymgynghori ar y mater hwn gyda phawb sy’n the interested parties. I want to go ahead on gysylltiedig. Dymunaf symud ymlaen drwy the basis of consensus. I currently have an gonsensws. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gennyf excellent relationship with fire authorities berthynas ragorol â’r awdurdodau tân a’r prif and chief fire officers, on which I will build. swyddogion tân, a byddaf yn adeiladu ar y sail honno.

Ann Jones: I welcome the devolution of this Ann Jones: Croesawaf ddatganoli’r pŵer power to the Assembly. We have had a close hwn i’r Cynulliad. Cawsom berthynas waith working relationship with the fire authorities agos â’r awdurdodau tân ynghylch diogelwch on community and fire safety. I am pleased cymunedol a diogelwch tân. Yr wyf yn falch that we will now take over that responsibility. y byddwn bellach yn derbyn y cyfrifoldeb I and my former colleagues welcome the fact hwnnw. Yr wyf fi a’m cyn gydweithwyr yn that fire safety in Wales will not be croesawu’r ffaith na fydd diogelwch tân yng restructured. As the fire service moves Nghymru’n cael ei ad-drefnu. Wrth i’r towards integrated risk management plans to gwasanaeth tân symud tuag at gynlluniau determine fire cover across Wales, you said rheoli risg integredig i benderfynu ar y gofal that you intended to consult with fire rhag tân ledled Cymru, dywedwch eich bod authorities and chiefs, but will you also yn bwriadu ymgynghori â’r awdurdodau tân consult with the Fire Brigades Union and a’r prif swyddogion tân, ond a wnewch

41 01/07/2003 staff to ensure that we can work together to ymgynghori hefyd ag Undeb y Brigadau Tân reach a consensus and that whatever the risk a staff i sicrhau y gallwn weithio gyda’n management plans indicate, it will be in the gilydd i ddod i gonsensws a, beth bynnag a best interest of the people of Wales? ddengys y cynlluniau rheoli risg, y bydd hynny er y budd gorau i bobl Cymru?

Edwina Hart: Fire service staff will be Edwina Hart: Bydd staff y gwasanaeth tân pleased that this power has now been yn falch bod y pŵer hwn wedi’i ddatganoli i devolved to Wales as a result of a close- Gymru bellach o ganlyniad i’r berthynas working relationship with fire authorities and waith agos â’r awdurdodau tân a’r dulliau the innovative ways in which we have tried to arloesol yr ydym wedi’u defnyddio i geisio approach these issues. I will consult with all ymdrin â’r materion hyn. Gwnaf ymgynghori interested parties, but I have to draw a line â phawb sy’n gysylltiedig, ond rhaid imi between the management responsibilities of dynnu llinell rhwng cyfrifoldebau rheoli senior fire officers and their relationship with uwch swyddogion tân a’u perthynas â’u staff their staff and our role and function. a’n rôl a’n swyddogaeth ni. Fodd bynnag, However, I intend to consult as widely as bwriadaf ymgynghori mor eang ag y bo possible because there are several issues on modd am fod sawl mater y gallem wella ein which we could improve our performance perfformiad ynddynt gan fod y pŵer hwn now that this power has been devolved. wedi’i ddatganoli bellach.

William Graham: In welcoming your William Graham: Wrth groesawu’ch statement, the Welsh Conservative group datganiad, mae grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn supports any measure that will increase the cefnogi unrhyw fesur a fydd yn hyrwyddo safety of the public throughout Wales. diogelwch y cyhoedd ledled Cymru. Er However, we will oppose any closure of hynny, gwnawn wrthwynebu cau unrhyw stations, particularly in rural communities orsafoedd, yn enwedig mewn cymunedau and ask that any reductions in staff be gwledig a gofynnwn i unrhyw ostyngiadau yn brought about through natural wastage and nifer y staff ddigwydd drwy golli swyddi’n not compulsory redundancy. When you naturiol ac nid drwy ddiswyddo gorfodol. consult with the fire service, we ask that you Pan ymgynghorwch â’r gwasanaeth tân, take on board what we have discussed in gofynnwn ichi ystyried yr hyn a drafodasom Committee, such as making the introduction yn y Pwyllgor, megis peri iddi fod yn orfodol of sprinklers mandatory, particularly in new cyflwyno taenellwyr, yn enwedig mewn school buildings. Will you also ensure that adeiladau ysgol newydd. A wnewch sicrhau there is an increasing awareness of the hefyd fod mwy o ymwybyddiaeth o beryglon dangers of fire, particularly of arson, and that tân, yn enwedig llosgi bwriadol, a bod y increased fire safety issues become pwys mwyaf yn cael ei roi ar faterion sy’n paramount? Will you join me in condemning ymwneud â gwella diogelwch tân? A the failure to include a ban on strikes? A wnewch ymuno â mi i gollfarnu’r methiant i modern fire service should offer a no-strike gynnwys gwaharddiad ar streicio? Dylai policy—the right to strike is important, but it gwasanaeth tân modern gynnig polisi o is not more important than the policy of right beidio â streicio—mae’r hawl i streicio’n to life. bwysig, ond nid yw’n bwysicach na’r polisi o hawl i fyw.

In welcoming a fire and rescue service, will Wrth groesawu gwasanaeth tân ac achub, a you clarify that it will be along the lines of wnewch egluro y bydd yn debyg i’r model the European model? Will you also ensure Ewropeaidd? A wnewch sicrhau hefyd na that it will not follow the model of the fydd yn dilyn y model o israddio’r downgrading of the ambulance service—once gwasanaeth ambiwlans—a fu unwaith yn the envy of many services—about which destun cenfigen i lawer o wasanaethau—y there is now a great deal of complaints. If mae llawer iawn o gwynion yn ei gylch there is to be a broader role with the bellach. Os ceir rôl ehangach gyda phwyslais emphasis on prevention, that role must be in ar atal, rhaid i’r rôl honno fodoli yng nghyd-

42 01/07/2003 terms of saving life and reducing injuries. destun achub bywydau a lleihau anafiadau. A Will you also use your influence in respect of wnewch ddefnyddio’ch dylanwad hefyd equality issues and ensure that environmental mewn cysylltiad â materion cydraddoldeb a disasters and terrorism become the sicrhau bod trychinebau amgylcheddol a responsibility, at least in terms of the therfysgaeth yn dod yn gyfrifoldeb i’r immediate response, of this new service? We gwasanaeth newydd hwn, o ran yr ymateb welcome the emphasis on fire prevention and cyntaf o leiaf? Croesawn y pwyslais ar atal education as a way of increasing the level of tân ac addysg fel modd i gynyddu’r public protection. Will you also clarify the amddiffyniad i’r cyhoedd. A wnewch egluro former role of the partnership council, where rôl flaenorol y cyngor partneriaeth, lle y fire authorities were represented? I hope that cynrychiolid awdurdodau tân? Gobeithiaf y that will continue and that there will not be bydd hynny’n parhau ac na fydd erydu ar yr an erosion of local authority consultation—I ymgynghori ag awdurdodau lleol—ni will not say control—throughout our fire ddefnyddiaf y gair rheoli—yn ein gwasanaeth service. We welcome achieving safer tân drwyddo draw. Croesawn y bwriad i communities in Wales and ask you to ensure sicrhau y ceir cymunedau mwy diogel yng an equality of emergency cover throughout Nghymru a gofynnwn ichi sicrhau Wales. gwasanaeth brys cydradd ledled Cymru.

3.30 p.m.

Edwina Hart: I broadly welcome the points Edwina Hart: Croesawaf y pwyntiau a that you made with one exception: I have wnaethoch at ei gilydd heblaw am un: yr wyf always believed that the right to strike is a yn credu erioed fod yr hawl i streicio yn hawl fundamental human right. When I see ddynol sylfaenol. Pan welaf weithwyr dan persecuted workers who cannot strike in erledigaeth nad ydynt yn cael streicio mewn countries across the world, my trade union gwledydd ledled y byd, mae fy nghefndir yn background comes straight to the fore. It is an yr undebau llafur yn dod i’r amlwg. Mae’n absolute right, and I am delighted that the hawl absoliwt, ac yr wyf yn falch bod y Government has decided not to legislate in Llywodraeth wedi penderfynu peidio â that manner. On your other points, fire deddfu yn y modd hwnnw. O ran y pwyntiau prevention measures, such as sprinkler eraill a wnaethoch, mae mesurau atal tân, fel systems and hardwired smoke alarms, which systemau taenellwyr a larymau mwg we have discussed in Committee, are at the gwifredig, yr ydym wedi’u trafod yn y heart of this discussion. We now have the Pwyllgor, yn ganolog yn y drafodaeth hon. opportunity to move that agenda further Mae gennym gyfle’n awr i yruu’r agenda forward. The Assembly will be able to make honno yn ei blaen. Bydd y Cynulliad yn gallu financial decisions and decide how to gwneud penderfyniadau ariannol a prioritise this particular agenda. I am also phenderfynu sut i flaenoriaethu’r agenda anxious to see equality of service across benodol hon. Yr wyf hefyd yn awyddus i Wales, and that will be at the forefront of my sicrhau gwasanaeth cydradd ledled Cymru, a discussions with the fire service when we chaiff hynny le amlwg yn fy nhrafodaethau deal with these newly devolved issues. I will â’r gwasanaeth tân pan ddeliwn â’r materion take forward your point about the European hyn sydd newydd eu datganoli. Byddaf yn model, and it will probably be the subject of ystyried y pwynt a wnaethoch am y model further discussion with the fire service. It is Ewropeaidd, ac mae’n debyg y bydd yn important that we capitalise on this destun trafodaeth pellach gyda’r gwasanaeth development and use the opportunity for tân. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn manteisio ar y closer working relationships between the datblygiad hwn ac yn achub ar y cyfle i gael emergency services. We have a good record cydberthynas waith agosach rhwng y on that to date, but I want to improve it. gwasanaethau brys. Mae gennym record dda ar hynny hyd yn hyn, ond yr wyf am ei gwella.

Peter Black: I also welcome this statement Peter Black: Yr wyf finnau’n croesawu’r

43 01/07/2003 today, and the Minister’s statement this datganiad hwn heddiw, a datganiad y morning, which stated her desire to also Gweinidog y bore yma, a ddatganodd ei transfer responsibility for the police to the hawydd i drosglwyddo cyfrifoldeb dros yr Assembly. It is essential that all emergency heddlu i’r Cynulliad hefyd. Mae’n services are under our control. I also hollbwysig bod pob gwasanaeth brys dan ein welcome the Minister’s comments about the rheolaeth. Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu strong case for stability. There is no call for sylwadau’r Gweinidog am y ddadl gryf dros change to the existing structure of fire sefydlogrwydd. Nid oes galw am newid i authorities in Wales. That stability is vital if drefn bresennol yr awdurdodau tân yng we are to take forward our agenda on fire Nghymru. Mae’n hanfodol cael y prevention across Wales. Will the Minister sefydlogrwydd hwnnw os ydym i fwrw give assurances that, as part of the transfer, ymlaen â’n hagenda ar atal tân ledled Cymru. we will also receive the relevant funding, and A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi sicrwydd y that we will not lose out as a result of this byddwn, fel rhan o’r trosglwyddo, yn cael y change? Will the Minister also make an early cyllid perthnasol hefyd, ac na fyddwn ar ein statement on how the Welsh Assembly colled o ganlyniad i’r newid hwn? A wnaiff y Government will approach the modernisation Gweinidog ddatganiad yn fuan hefyd ar y agenda? There is already speculation on the modd y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru future of small stations in terms of single yn ymdrin â’r agenda moderneiddio? Mae control rooms and so on. An early statement dyfalu eisoes ynghylch dyfodol gorsafoedd on that will make people aware of the bach yng nghyd-destun ystafelloedd rheoli position. sengl ac yn y blaen. Bydd datganiad ar hynny’n fuan yn fodd i bobl gael gwybod am y sefyllfa.

Edwina Hart: I am already scheduling Edwina Hart: Yr wyf eisoes yn trefnu meetings with the interested parties to cyfarfodydd gyda’r rhai sy’n gysylltiedig er achieve a coherent approach to some of the mwyn sicrhau ymagwedd gydlynol at rai o’r wider issues included in the paper. My views materion mwy cyffredinol a geir yn y papur. about policing are well known and Mae fy marn am blismona’n hysbys ac yn established. Gaining control of all the sefydledig. Drwy gael rheolaeth ar yr holl emergency services would ensure better wasanaethau brys, gellid sicrhau gwell value for money and better coverage across gwerth am arian a gwell gwasanaeth ledled Wales. Cymru.

Janice Gregory: I am sure that members of Janice Gregory: Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai the Social Justice and Regeneration aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Cyfiawnder Committee would want me, as Chair, to Cymdeithasol ac Adfywio yn dymuno i mi, welcome your statement today and the fel Cadeirydd, groesawu’ch datganiad chi Deputy Prime Minister’s announcement. You heddiw a chyhoeddiad y Dirprwy Brif rightly mentioned the close relationship Weinidog. Gwnaethoch sôn yn briodol am y between the National Assembly and the three berthynas agos rhwng y Cynulliad Welsh fire authorities. Like you, I look Cenedlaethol a’r tri awdurdod tân yng forward to building on that solid base. There Nghymru. Fel chithau, edrychaf ymlaen at is no doubt that this announcement will end adeiladu ar y sail gadarn honno. Nid oes the confusion, uncertainty and tension caused amheuaeth na fydd y cyhoeddiad hwn yn rhoi by the split in responsibilities between the pen ar y dryswch, yr ansicrwydd a’r tyndra Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, the sy’n ganlyniad i’r rhannu ar gyfrifoldebau Assembly and the fire brigade. How will this rhwng Swyddfa’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, y announcement impact on the work of the Cynulliad a’r frigâd dân. Sut y bydd y community fire safety trust for Wales? cyhoeddiad hwn yn effeithio ar waith yr ymddiriedolaeth diogelwch tân cymunedol i Gymru?

Edwina Hart: The community fire safety Edwina Hart: Mae’r ymddiriedolaeth

44 01/07/2003 trust for Wales is an excellent Assembly diogelwch tân cymunedol i Gymru’n fenter initiative, supported by fire authorities across ragorol ar ran y Cynulliad, sy’n cael ei Wales. The latest development will enhance chefnogi gan awdurdodau tân ledled Cymru. its role and function. We can now effectively Bydd y datblygiad diweddaraf yn hyrwyddo consider what other areas it can influence in ei rôl a’i swyddogaeth. Bellach gallwn terms of fire prevention and fire safety. I look ystyried yn effeithiol y meysydd eraill y gall forward to the new working relationships that ddylanwadu arnynt o ran atal tân a diogelwch are bound to emerge as a result of these tân. Edrychaf ymlaen at y cydberthnasau changes. If I may respond, Presiding Officer, gweithio newydd sy’n sicr o ddatblygu o to Peter Black about the crucial issue of ganlyniad i’r newidiadau hyn. Os caf ymateb, funding—I omitted to do so earlier; that Lywydd, i Peter Black am y mater shows that I am no longer Finance Minister. hollbwysig o gyllido—anghofiais wneud On funding, it will be essential to have the hynny’n gynharach; dengys hynny nad y proper transfers in place, but we are lucky in Gweinidog Cyllid ydwyf bellach. O ran terms of funding the fire service. We know cyllido, bydd yn hollbwysig cael y what the figures for an appropriate transfer trosglwyddiadau priodol, ond yr ydym yn are—we are not in the dark about that. ffodus o ran cyllido’r gwasanaeth tân. Gwyddom beth yw’r ffigurau ar gyfer trosglwyddiad priodol—nid ydym yn y niwl ynghylch hynny.

Janet Ryder: I share your pleasure that this Janet Ryder: Fel chithau, yr wyf wrth fy power has now been devolved to the National modd bod y pŵer hwn wedi’i ddatganoli Assembly, and that you can guarantee a good bellach i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a’ch bod financial settlement. There was a recent pay yn gallu sicrhau setliad ariannol da. Bu settlement with the fire service, and it is setliad ar dâl gyda’r gwasanaeth tân yn crucial that this settlement is fully funded on ddiweddar, ac mae’n hollbwysig bod y transfer and will not involve cuts to services setliad hwn yn cael ei gyllido’n llawn wrth in Wales, or increased council taxes. drosglwyddo ac na fydd yn golygu torri ar wasanaethau yng Nghymru, neu drethi cyngor uwch.

In response to William’s comments about a Yn eich ymateb i sylwadau William am ban on strikes, you said that you were glad wahardd streicio, dywedasoch eich bod yn that there was no ban, and I agree. However, falch nad oedd streicio wedi’i wahardd, ac yr William said that banning strikes within the wyf yn cytuno. Fodd bynnag, dywedodd fire service meant a right to life for victims of William fod gwahardd streicio yn y fire. One way to help guarantee that is to gwasanaeth tân yn golygu hawl i fyw i rai change the emphasis of policy on crewing sy’n dioddef oherwydd tân. Un modd i helpu tenders to save lives rather than property. sicrhau hynny yw newid pwyslais y polisi ar Minister, will you give a guarantee today that griwio injans tân i fod yn un o achub you will shift the emphasis of the fire service bywydau yn hytrach nag arbed eiddo. in Wales from saving property to saving Weinidog, a wnewch roi sicrwydd heddiw y lives? newidiwch bwyslais y gwasanaeth tân yng Nghymru o arbed eiddo at achub bywydau?

Edwina Hart: My experience of the fire Edwina Hart: Mae fy mhrofiad i o’r service in Wales shows that it does gwasanaeth tân yng Nghymru’n dangos ei emphasise saving lives and not property. If fod yn rhoi pwyslais ar achub bywydau ac you consider the recent tragic events in nid ar arbed eiddo. Os ystyriwch y Gwauncaegurwen, in Gwenda Thomas’s digwyddiadau trist yn ddiweddar yng constituency, the fire service fought to do the Ngwauncaegurwen, yn etholaeth Gwenda right thing—it put lives first. In terms of the Thomas, ceisiodd y gwasanaeth tân wneud y policy agenda, saving lives is the issue that peth iawn—rhoddodd fywydau’n gyntaf. O concerns me and fire prevention is the most ran yr agenda polisi, achub bywydau yw’r

45 01/07/2003 important issue for us all. mater sydd o bwys i mi ac atal tân yw’r mater pwysicaf inni oll.

Gwenda Thomas: A fire tragedy has Gwenda Thomas: Mae trychineb sy’n weighed heavily on my constituency during gysylltiedig â thân wedi pwyso’n drwm ar fy the last week. Yesterday, we saw a etholaeth i yn ystod yr wythnos diwethaf. community in mourning, supporting a family Ddoe, gwelsom gymuned mewn galar, yn that deserved all our sympathy. cynnal teulu a oedd yn haeddu ein holl gydymdeimlad.

Minister, I welcome the devolution of power Weinidog, croesawaf ddatganoli pŵer dros y over the fire service to Wales. I commend gwasanaeth tân i Gymru. Canmolaf y camau your actions during the first Assembly, in the a gymerasoch yn ystod y Cynulliad cyntaf, o way that you established a partnership, not ran y modd y sefydlasoch bartneriaeth, nid yn only with the fire service, but also with the unig â’r gwasanaeth tân, ond â’r awdurdodau fire authorities. You mentioned that the tân hefyd. Cyfeiriasoch at yr ad-drefnu a fu ar reorganisation of the fire service has already y gwasanaeth tân yng Nghymru eisoes ac yr taken place in Wales and I am sure that you wyf yn siŵr y cytunech fod hyfforddiant da will agree that high quality and diverse ac amrywiol yn cael ei gynnig a’i ddilyn. A training is offered and undertaken. Will you wnewch ein sicrhau y bydd negodi llawn ac assure us that there will be full and ystyrlon ag Undeb y Brigadau Tân cyn meaningful negotiation with the Fire cyflwyno unrhyw newidiadau gweithredol Brigades Union before any further pellach, ac y bydd rôl yr awdurdodau tân yng operational changes are introduced, and that Nghymru yn cael ei diffinio’n glir yn y the future role of the fire authorities in Wales dyfodol? Beth fydd enw’r gwasanaeth will be clearly defined? What will be the new newydd, ai ‘Gwasanaeth Tân ac Achubiaeth service be called, could it be ‘Gwasanaeth Cymru’? Tân ac Achubiaeth Cymru’?

Edwina Hart: I will not attempt to Edwina Hart: Ni cheisiaf ynganu hynny, pronounce that, but it sounds all right to me. ond mae’n swnio’n iawn i mi. [Chwerthin.] [Laughter.] It is important that ‘rescue’ now Mae’n bwysig bod y gair ‘achub’ yn appears in the title, although the fire service ymddangos yn y teitl yn awr, er bod y has always undertaken such tasks. There is gwasanaeth tân yn ymgymryd â thasgau o’r nothing new in its work on major spillages, fath erioed. Nid oes dim byd newydd o ran ei and terrorist or environmental incidents; there waith ar ollyngiadau mawr, a digwyddiadau has always been excellent training in Wales terfysgol neu amgylcheddol; bu hyfforddiant for those tasks. Diverse training initiatives rhagorol yng Nghymru erioed ar gyfer y should continue, and we should support tasgau hynny. Dylai mentrau hyfforddi firefighters in the training that they amrywiol barhau, a dylem gefnogi undertake. diffoddwyr tân yn yr hyfforddiant yr ymgymerant ag ef.

You and William Graham both mentioned Gwnaethoch chi a William Graham sôn am fire authorities; that democratic link must be awdurdodau tân; rhaid cadw’r cyswllt retained. The involvement of local authority democrataidd hwnnw. Mae’r rhan a gymer members with fire authorities is most useful aelodau awdurdod lleol mewn awdurdodau and they take the issues involved seriously. A tân yn dra buddiol a chymerant y materion local authority leader told me that when dan sylw o ddifrif. Dywedodd un arweinydd councillors become members of a fire awdurdod lleol wrthyf fod cynghorwyr, wrth authority, they don the helmet so that they ddod yn aelodau o awdurdod tân, yn gwisgo’r press the fire authority’s case strongly within helmed fel eu bod yn pwyso’n gryf dros yr local government. It is good that they take awdurdod tân mewn llywodraeth leol. Mae’n such an interest and show such a beth da eu bod yn ymddiddori felly ac yn commitment; I want to retain that. dangos y fath ymroddiad; yr wyf am gadw

46 01/07/2003

hynny.

Any operational changes will give rise to Bydd unrhyw newidiadau gweithredol yn issues for chief fire officers, but I hope that codi materion i’w hystyried gan brif all changes will be fully negotiated with the swyddogion tân, ond gobeithiaf y bydd pob relevant trade union. We can only deliver the newid yn cael ei negodi’n drwyadl â’r undeb service that we want through consensus. I llafur perthnasol. Dim ond drwy gonsensws y must place on record the fact that it is good to gallwn ddarparu’r math o wasanaeth a have a fire service in Wales with such ddymunwn. Rhaid imi ddweud ar goedd ei dedicated professionals. bod yn dda cael gwasanaeth tân yng Nghymru sydd â’r fath weithwyr proffesiynol ymroddedig.

Nick Bourne: I thank the Minister for Nick Bourne: Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am promptly making this statement after the wneud y datganiad hwn yn brydlon wedi i’r decision was made. I agree with her that the penderfyniad gael ei wneud. Cytunaf â hi fod fire service in Wales is uniformly y gwasanaeth tân yng Nghymru’n professional and that it does a fantastic job. I broffesiynol drwyddo draw a’i fod yn emphasise that we need restructuring like we gwneud gwaith gwych. Pwysleisiaf mai’r need a hole in the head. I also believe that the peth olaf y mae arnom ei angen yw ad- way that the UK Government mishandled the drefnu. Credaf hefyd mai’r modd y gwnaeth firefighters’ dispute is one reason why Llywodraeth y DU gamdrafod anghydfod y control of the fire service has been a ready diffoddwyr tân yw un rheswm y buwyd mor candidate for devolution. barod i ystyried datganoli’r gwasanaeth tân.

Aspects of the so-called modernisation Mae rhai agweddau ar yr agenda agenda cause me some concern. I visited moderneiddio, fel y’i gelwir, yn peri peth many fire stations in my region during the pryder i mi. Ymwelais â llawer o orsafoedd firefighters’ dispute and discovered that the tân yn fy rhanbarth i yn ystod anghydfod y peak time for domestic fires was 3 a.m. To diffoddwyr tân a darganfod mai am 3 a.m. y consider withdrawing night cover is not ceir y nifer mwyaf o danau mewn cartrefi. progress—it is moving backwards with a Nid cynnydd yw ystyried tynnu’n ôl vengeance. I would welcome an assurance darpariaeth yn ystod y nos—cam mawr yn ôl that power will be devolved over terms of ydyw. Byddwn yn croesawu sicrwydd y conditions and that sensible decisions will be datganolir pŵer dros delerau ac amodau ac y made; we need to hear that today, more than gwneir penderfyniadau synhwyrol; rhaid inni anything else. Some of us were taken by gael clywed hynny heddiw, yn fwy na dim surprise by the timing of this decision— byd arall. Gwnaeth rhai ohonom synnu at although we welcome it and understand the amseriad y penderfyniad hwn—er ein bod yn reasons behind it—as the Richard ei groesawu ac yn deall y rhesymau sy’n sail commission is still sitting. The commission iddo—gan fod comisiwn Richard yn dal i was certainly considering this issue because eistedd. Yr oedd y comisiwn yn ystyried y we gave specific evidence on it. Is this part of mater hwn, yn sicr, oherwydd rhoesom a plan? Will we see more such ad hoc dystiolaeth benodol arno. A yw hyn yn rhan o decisions or will we have to wait until the gynllun? A welwn ragor o benderfyniadau ad end of the year for the Richard commission’s hoc o’r fath neu a fydd yn rhaid inni report before other functions become possible ddisgwyl tan ddiwedd y flwyddyn am candidates for transferral? The Minister’s adroddiad comisiwn Richard cyn y gellir views on powers over the police, for ystyried y posibilrwydd o drosglwyddo example, are well known. However, shall we swyddogaethau eraill? Mae barn y be waiting for the Richard commission’s final Gweinidog am bwerau dros yr heddlu, er report or is there a possibility that we shall enghraifft, yn hysbys iawn. Fodd bynnag, a again be overtaken by events and that such a fyddwn yn disgwyl am adroddiad terfynol transfer could happen in advance of the comisiwn Richard neu a oes posibilrwydd y report? If the Minister could deal with that bydd digwyddiadau’n ein dal yn annisgwyl

47 01/07/2003 question too, I would be grateful. ac y gallai trosglwyddo o’r fath ddigwydd cyn cael yr adroddiad? Os gallai’r Gweinidog ymdrin â’r cwestiwn hwnnw hefyd, byddwn yn ddiolchgar.

3.40 p.m.

Edwina Hart: I am not aware of any further Edwina Hart: Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o devolution of functions by the UK unrhyw ddatganoli pellach ar swyddogaethau Government within my portfolio. The gan Lywodraeth y DU yn fy mhortffolio i. Richard commission will cover responsibility Bydd comisiwn Richard yn ymdrin â for the police, and that will then generate chyfrifoldeb dros yr heddlu, a bydd hynny debate with our Westminster colleagues. wedyn yn arwain at drafod gyda’n cyd- Unlike you, I am not worried by the decision Weinidogion yn San Steffan. Yn wahanol i on the timing as I had anticipated it for some chi, nid wyf yn poeni am y penderfyniad ar yr time. Once the Office of the Deputy Prime amseriad gan fy mod yn ei ddisgwyl ers tro. Minister accepted the main Wedi i Swyddfa’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog recommendations, we knew that the fire dderbyn y prif argymhellion, gwyddem y service would become a devolved matter in byddai’r gwasanaeth tân yn fater a Wales. I firmly believe that you cannot value ddatganolid i Gymru. Credaf yn gryf na ellir human life too highly. As the Government rhoi gormod o werth ar fywyd dynol. Fel y Minister with responsibility in Wales, I Gweinidog mewn Llywodraeth sydd â would want to maintain the quality of the chyfrifoldeb yng Nghymru, byddwn am service, which would allow chief fire officers gynnal ansawdd y gwasanaeth, a ganiatâi i within that framework to make the right brif swyddogion tân wneud y penderfyniadau decisions on cover. Ultimately, it is important iawn o fewn y fframwaith hwnnw ar y to recognise that Wales is not metropolitan ddarpariaeth. Yn y diwedd, mae’n bwysig England, where you can nip down a cydnabod nad Lloegr fetropolitan yw Cymru, motorway at high speed to reach a fire in the ac na ellir brysio i lawr traffordd i gyrraedd middle of the night. That is why I am so tân gefn nos. Dyna pam yr wyf mor falch bod pleased that the fire service has been y gwasanaeth tân wedi’i ddatganoli. Gallwn devolved. We can create a fire service that is greu gwasanaeth tân sy’n diwallu anghenion fit for purpose for the people of Wales, not pobl Cymru, nid un sy’n cael ei arwain gan one that is led by the demands of ofynion Lloegr fetropolitan. Gobeithiaf y metropolitan England. I hope that you will gwnewch fy nghefnogi ar fater adnoddau support me in the matter of related resources, cysylltiedig, Nick, gan ei bod yn bwysig bod Nick, as it is important that the necessary yr adnoddau angenrheidiol ar gael i ddarparu resources are in place to provide an excellent gwasanaeth tân rhagorol. fire service.

However, I thank you for your support on Fodd bynnag, diolch i chi am eich cefnogaeth restructuring. You are quite right: another ar ad-drefnu. Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle: ni restructure would be welcomed like a hole in fyddai croeso o gwbl i ad-drefnu pellach— head—Wales’s fire authorities have bedded mae awdurdodau tân Cymru wedi down well. There will be wider issues to ymsefydlu’n dda. Bydd materion ehangach consider in the future about coterminous i’w hystyried yn y dyfodol ynghylch boundaries on emergency services in general cydffiniau’r holl wasanaethau brys a and further devolution for Wales. However, datganoli pellach i Gymru. Fodd bynnag, mae that is a matter for another day, in a few years hynny’n fater i’w drafod eto, ymhen rhai perhaps. blynyddoedd o bosibl.

Peter Law: I congratulate you, Minister, on Peter Law: Fe’ch llongyfarchaf, Weinidog, your hard work on this matter over the last ar eich gwaith caled ar y mater hwn dros y two-and-a-half years, and on your ddwy flynedd a hanner diwethaf, ac ar eich negotiations. This is a significant day in that negodiadau. Diwrnod pwysig yw hwn, i’r

48 01/07/2003 we have achieved administrative devolution graddau ein bod wedi sicrhau datganoli of the fire service, which is what the gweinyddol ar y gwasanaeth tân, sef yr hyn a Committee wanted. It shows that the UK ddymunai’r Pwyllgor. Dengys fod Labour Government is listening to the Llywodraeth Lafur y DU yn gwrando ar y Assembly and that it has given the Welsh Cynulliad a’i bod wedi rhoi cyfle i Assembly Government the opportunity to Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ofalu am bobl care for the people of Wales by devolving Cymru drwy ddatganoli pwerau o’r fath. A such powers. Can you assure me that you will allwch fy sicrhau y byddwch yn cychwyn enter into discussions not only with the Fire trafodaethau gydag Undeb y Brigadau Tân, a Brigades Union, but also with our partners in hefyd â’n partneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol local government and in fire authorities, as ac mewn awdurdodau tân, cyn gynted ag y bo soon as possible, so that you can design a modd, fel y gallwch gynllunio strwythur a structure that will serve all the people of fydd yn gwasanaethu pawb yng Nghymru? Wales?

Edwina Hart: I am happy to assure you that Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn falch o’ch sicrhau all necessary discussions will take place and I y bydd yr holl drafodaethau angenrheidiol yn will be delighted to come before the first digwydd ac y byddaf yn falch o ddod gerbron Committee meeting after recess to discuss the cyfarfod cyntaf y Pwyllgor ar ôl y toriad i fire service. I am grateful for cross-party drafod y gwasanaeth tân. Yr wyf yn support on this matter, which has been ddiolchgar am gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol ar y particularly helpful. mater hwn, a fu’n gymorth mawr.

Rosemary Butler: I too welcome the Rosemary Butler: Yr wyf finnau’n devolution of this function to Wales. The croesawu datganoli’r swyddogaeth hon i name change is important as it recognises the Gymru. Mae’r newid i’r enw’n bwysig gan ei kind of work undertaken by firefighters. fod yn cydnabod y math o waith a wnaiff Given your excellent record on listening and diffoddwyr tân. Yng ngolwg y record ragorol having meaningful consultations, I hope that sydd gennych o ran gwrando ac ymgynghori you will listen to the firefighters to find out mewn modd ystyrlon, gobeithiaf y gwnewch what sort of service they want to deliver. wrando ar y diffoddwyr tân er mwyn Although pay is, quite rightly, not devolved darganfod pa fath o wasanaeth y dymunant ei to Wales, it is important that the ddarparu. Er na ddatganolwyd tâl i Gymru, a responsibility for the conditions in which hynny’n briodol, mae’n bwysig y datganolir firefighters work will be devolved. It is not y cyfrifoldeb dros yr amodau y mae only important that quality equipment is diffoddwyr tân yn gweithio odanynt. Mae’n available to them to develop this service, but bwysig bod offer o ansawdd da ar gael iddynt facilities in fire stations are also crucial. I er mwyn datblygu’r gwasanaeth hwn, ac mae invite you to Newport to see the facilities in cyfleusterau mewn gorsafoedd tân yn Malpas fire station, and to hear the views of hollbwysig hefyd. Fe’ch gwahoddaf i firefighters on how they would like the Gasnewydd i weld y cyfleusterau yng ngorsaf service to be developed. dân Malpas, ac i glywed barn diffoddwyr tân am y math o ddatblygu yr hoffent ei weld yn y gwasanaeth.

Edwina Hart: I gratefully accept your kind Edwina Hart: Derbyniaf eich gwahoddiad invitation. Issues with regard to conditions caredig yn ddiolchgar. Rhaid ymdrin â and fire stations must be addressed. The materion sy’n codi ynghylch amodau a issuing of quality equipment is also close to gorsafoedd tân. Mae dosbarthu offer o my heart as I know that several fire ansawdd da’n fater sy’n agos at fy nghalon authorities wish to invest in more modern and hefyd gan y gwn fod sawl awdurdod tân yn better equipment, and we will consider that dymuno buddsoddi mewn offer gwell a mwy when this matter is fully devolved. It is modern, a gwnawn ystyried hynny wedi i’r important that the people of Wales have a mater hwn gael ei ddatganoli’n llawn. Mae’n professional, high-quality service delivered bwysig bod pobl Cymru yn cael gwasanaeth

49 01/07/2003 across the whole of Wales, not just urban proffesiynol o ansawdd da a ddarperir ledled Wales. Cymru, nid yng Nghymru drefol yn unig.

Datganiad ar Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru Statement on Education and Learning Wales

The Minister for Education and Lifelong Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Learning (Jane Davidson): I will make a Oes (Jane Davidson): Gwnaf ddatganiad statement today about the way ahead at heddiw am y ffordd ymlaen yn y Cyngor National Council—ELWa. This is in relation Cenedlaethol—ELWa. Mae hyn yn ymwneud to deficiencies in the application of the â diffygion wrth gymhwyso’r gweithdrefnau proper procurement procedures required by caffael priodol sy’n ofynnol gan Lywodraeth the Assembly Government, and to problems y Cynulliad, a’r problemau sy’n effeithio ar affecting a number of projects commissioned nifer o brosiectau a gomisiynwyd gan y by the council at broadly the same time, cyngor tua’r un pryd, sy’n destun ymchwiliad which are being independently investigated annibynnol gan yr Archwilydd Cyffredinol. by the Auditor General. There was a pattern Yr oedd patrwm i’r hyn a ddigwyddodd in what occurred over a number of projects mewn sawl prosiect ddiwedd 2001 a dechrau late in 2001 and early in 2002. The common 2002. Mae’r elfen gyffredin yn ymwneud â thread concerns weaknesses in the operation gwendidau yng ngweithrediad systemau of important business systems, notably those busnes pwysig ac, yn neilltuol, y rhai sy’n bearing on contract, compliance, project, risk effeithio ar gontractio, cydymffurfio, rheoli and payment management. All were marked prosiectau, risg a thaliadau. Yr oedd pob un by an absence of the usual business standards yn amlygu diffyg o ran y safonau busnes that we expect in any Assembly sponsored arferol a ddisgwyliwn mewn unrhyw gorff public body. I welcome the acting chief cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. executive’s decision to undertake a Croesawaf y penderfyniad gan y prif comprehensive review of other council weithredwr gweithredol i ymgymryd ag contracts. The advice I have at present adolygiad cynhwysfawr o gontractau eraill y suggests that this wider review has raised no cyngor. Mae’r wybodaeth sydd gennyf ar hyn new issues. o bryd yn awgrymu nad yw’r adolygiad ehangach hwn wedi codi unrhyw faterion newydd.

What happened was truly regrettable, Yr oedd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn destun notwithstanding ELWa’s excellent record of gofid gwirioneddol, er rhagored yw record achievement for learners. Although the ELWa o ran ei gyflawniadau dros ddysgwyr. problems affect only a small percentage of Er nad yw’r problemau ond yn effeithio ar the council’s overall expenditure and activity, ganran fach o holl wariant a gweithgaredd y we cannot disregard or dismiss control and cyngor, ni allwn ddiystyru neu anwybyddu compliance failures of the sort that existed, methiannau o ran rheoli a chydymffurfio o’r particularly up-front payments, which math a gafwyd, yn enwedig taliadau ymlaen contravene Government accounting rules. llaw, sy’n groes i reolau cyfrifyddu’r Members can be assured that the robust audit Llywodraeth. Caiff Aelodau fod yn dawel eu systems that the Assembly Government has meddwl y bydd y systemau archwilio cadarn put in place will ensure that lessons are a sefydlodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn learned and acted upon. sicrhau y dysgir gwersi ac y gweithredir yng ngoleuni hynny.

The audit process must now take its course to Rhaid i’r broses archwilio fynd rhagddi’n awr ensure that the appropriate lessons are er mwyn sicrhau y dysgir y gwersi priodol ac learned and operational practical changes y rhoddir newidiadau ymarferol gweithredol implemented. It may be helpful to lay out the ar waith. Gallai fod yn fuddiol disgrifio’r timetable for Members: I understand that the amserlen i Aelodau: deallaf fod yr

50 01/07/2003

Auditor General is likely to publish his Archwilydd Cyffredinol yn debygol o independent report in September, the contents gyhoeddi ei adroddiad annibynnol ym mis and timing of which are matters for him, and Medi, ac mae ei gynnwys ac adeg ei not for the Assembly Government. When that gyhoeddi’n faterion iddo ef, nid i Lywodraeth report is available, the Assembly’s Audit y Cynulliad. Pan fydd yr adroddiad hwnnw ar Committee will conduct its own hearing, take gael, bydd Pwyllgor Archwilio’r Cynulliad evidence and publish its report. The yn cynnal ei wrandawiad ei hun, yn cymryd Assembly Government will respond to the tystiolaeth ac yn cyhoeddi ei adroddiad. Bydd Committee’s recommendations within 30 Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ymateb i days, as required by Assembly Standing argymhellion y Pwyllgor o fewn 30 niwrnod, Orders. yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog y Cynulliad.

Since I first reported the council’s concerns Ers imi adrodd yn gyntaf am bryderon y to the Education and Lifelong Learning cyngor i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Committee in May 2002, the Assembly Oes ym Mai 2002, mae Llywodraeth y Government has instigated several specific Cynulliad wedi cymryd sawl cam penodol i actions to ensure that the council is fit for sicrhau bod y cyngor yn addas i’w ddiben. purpose. First, we sought immediate Yn gyntaf, gofynasom am sicrwydd ar reassurance from the council about action to unwaith gan y cyngor ynghylch y camau a be taken to ensure that a proper control gymerid i sicrhau bod fframwaith rheoli framework was in place. Secondly, the priodol ar waith. Yn ail, cytunodd Assembly Government agreed to the Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ag argymhellion Rawlings recommendations, namely that the Rawlings, sef y dylai’r cyngor gael prif council should have a separate chief weithredwr a chyfarwyddwr cyllid ar wahân. executive and finance director. I reported that Adroddais hynny i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a to the Education and Lifelong Learning Dysgu Gydol Oes ar 21 Tachwedd 2002. Yn Committee on 21 November 2002. Thirdly, drydydd, yn fy llythyr cylch gorchwyl eleni, in my remit letter this year, I required the mynnais fod y cyngor yn adolygu ei brif council to urgently review its key business systemau ar frys i sicrhau bod agweddau systems to ensure that key aspects of its allweddol ar ei reolaeth ar brosiectau, ei project management, contract practices, arferion contractio, ei weithdrefnau caffael, ei procurement procedures, payment and drefniadau talu a thrysorlys, ei reolaeth ar treasury arrangements, risk management and risg a’i gydymffurfio yn gadarn. Yn compliance are in sound condition. Fourthly, bedwerydd, mynnais fod y cyngor yn paratoi I required the council to prepare a prioritised cynllun gweithredu yn ôl blaenoriaeth i action plan to deal effectively with all areas ddelio’n effeithiol â phob maes lle y ceir of weakness, for full implementation by gwendid, i’w weithredu’n llawn erbyn mis September. The action plan covers measures Medi. Mae’r cynllun gweithredu’n ymdrin â to restructure and reshape the organisation, mesurau i aildrefnu ac ailffurfio’r corff, overhaul business systems, institute a training ailwampio systemau busnes, cychwyn and development programme to secure the rhaglen hyfforddi a datblygu i sicrhau council’s management of projects, and to rheolaeth y cyngor ar brosiectau, ac buttress its compliance regime. Milestones atgyfnerthu ei gyfundrefn cydymffurfio. and targets have been agreed with the Cytunwyd ar gerrig milltir a thargedau â’r Permanent Secretary and measures are now Ysgrifennydd Parhaol ac mae mesurau ar y in hand to recruit a permanent chief executive gweill yn awr i recriwtio prif weithredwr a and financial director, and to appoint a chyfarwyddwr ariannol parhaol, ac i benodi successor to Enid Rowlands, who has olynydd i Enid Rowlands, sydd wedi decided not to seek a second term. penderfynu peidio ag ymgeisio am ei hailbenodi ar gyfer ail dymor.

The sponsor division is monitoring the Mae’r adran sy’n ei noddi yn monitro council’s progress against its action plan cynnydd y cyngor yn erbyn ei gynllun through monthly meetings with the interim gweithredu drwy gyfarfodydd misol â’r prif chief executive. The Assembly Government weithredwr dros dro. Mae Llywodraeth y

51 01/07/2003 has made it a requirement that its internal Cynulliad wedi mynnu y bydd ei archwilwyr auditors undertake quarterly reviews of the mewnol yn cynnal adolygiadau chwarterol o council’s business systems to ensure systemau busnes y cyngor i sicrhau ei fod yn compliance with control documents. Checks cydymffurfio â dogfennau rheoli. Cynhelir are made on project management, contract archwiliadau o’r rheolaeth ar brosiectau, practices, procurement procedures and arferion contractio, gweithdrefnau caffael a payments. The council is also now required thaliadau. Yn ogystal â hynny, mae bellach to provide an annual statement of compliance yn ofynnol i’r cyngor ddarparu datganiad with the control documents. Meanwhile, Sue blynyddol o gydymffurfiad â’r dogfennau Essex and I have agreed to commission an rheoli. Yn y cyfamser, mae Sue Essex a independent examination of the action plan to minnau wedi cytuno i gomisiynu archwiliad provide assurance on the council’s ability to annibynnol o’r cynllun gweithredu er mwyn discharge the plan effectively and to confirm rhoi sicrwydd o allu’r cyngor i gyflawni’r delivery to time. That work will be dovetailed cynllun yn effeithiol ac i gadarnhau ei fod yn with the roll out of the council’s plan, and ei weithredu’n brydlon. Cyfunir y gwaith will be completed in line with the council’s hwnnw â’r gwaith o weithredu cynllun y progress. cyngor, ac fe’i cwblheir yn unol â’r cynnydd a wnaiff y cyngor.

The Assembly resolved that the council Penderfynodd y Cynulliad y dylid sefydlu’r should be established from 1 April 2001, cyngor o 1 Ebrill 2001, gan anelu at y nodau with the following clear aims in view: to clir canlynol: cydlynu’r system wasgarog ar bring coherence to a disjointed system for gyfer dysgwyr ôl-16; dileu cystadlu diangen post-16 learners; to eradicate unnecessary rhwng darparwyr a dyblygu ar fuddsoddi a competition between providers and the gweithio mewn partneriaeth yn lleol, yn duplication of investment and work in rhanbarthol neu’n genedlaethol; hyrwyddo partnership at local, regional or national dewis, a sicrhau chwarae teg ar gyfer cyllido levels; to improve choice, and to bring a level dysgwyr mewn cyfleusterau chweched playing field to funding for learners in sixth dosbarth, addysg bellach a lleoliadau sy’n forms, further education and work-based seiliedig ar waith. Mae’r manteision hynny o settings. Those benefits are now within our fewn ein gafael bellach. Mae hynny’n golygu grasp. That means better provision for skills; darparu’n well ar gyfer sgiliau; trin y parity of treatment for vocational and llwybrau galwedigaethol ac academaidd yn academic pathways; higher standards of gyfartal; safonau dysgu uwch; llai’n gadael learning; fewer dropouts; higher quality of cyrsiau; darpariaeth o ansawdd gwell, a provision, and more choice. It means rhagor o ddewis. Mae’n golygu chwalu’r breaking down the barriers to learning for rhwystrau i ddysgu ar gyfer dysgwyr, individuals, communities, and businesses. It cymunedau, a busnesau. Mae’n golygu means increasing the number, and the cynnydd yn nifer y dysgwyr yng Nghymru, attainments, of learners in Wales. ac yn eu cyflawniadau.

The council has made an important and Mae’r cyngor wedi cyflawni gwaith pwysig a valuable start and has achieved a great deal gwerthfawr ers iddo gychwyn ac mae wedi for learners in a short time. It has important cyflawni llawer iawn dros ddysgwyr mewn housekeeping to complete but there can be no cyfnod byr. Mae ganddo waith pwysig i’w doubting the commitment of council gwblhau o ran cadw tŷ ond ni ellir amau members. They are determined to ensure that ymroddiad aelodau’r cyngor. Maent yn a painful experience is turned to good effect, benderfynol o sicrhau y ceir budd o’r profiad and that the council builds on its strengths. poenus hwn, ac y bydd y cyngor yn datblygu Members of the Education and Lifelong ei gryfderau. Bydd aelodau’r Pwyllgor Learning Committee will have the Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn cael cyfle yn opportunity in the autumn to hear directly yr hydref i glywed yn uniongyrchol gan y from the council about progress on its action cyngor am ei gynnydd wrth ddilyn ei gynllun plan. I look forward to rapid progress on the gweithredu. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld delivery of the action plan and on being able cynnydd buan yn y gwaith o gyflawni’r

52 01/07/2003 to assure Members of the strength of the cynllun gweithredu ac at allu sicrhau Aelodau independent study that will report to me in ynghylch cadernid yr astudiaeth annibynnol y the autumn. caf adroddiad amdani yn yr hydref.

3.50 p.m.

Helen Mary Jones: I have always been a Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn edmygydd great admirer of the Minister’s ability to say mawr erioed o allu’r Gweinidog i ddweud almost nothing with a great deal of bron ddim gyda llawer o arddeliad. Mae arnaf conviction. I am afraid that we had another ofn inni gael enghraifft arall o hynny heddiw. example of that today. The Minister must be Rhaid mai’r Gweinidog yw’r unig un yng the only person in Wales who believes that Nghymru sy’n credu bod y manteision o the benefits from ELWa, which we all hoped ELWa, yr oedd pob un ohonom yn gobeithio for, are within our grasp. Many of us are not eu cael, o fewn ein gafael. Mae llawer convinced that all ELWa must deal with are ohonom heb ein hargyhoeddi mai materion housekeeping issues. It is still disappointing, cadw tŷ yw’r cwbl y mae’n rhaid i ELWa although not surprising, that the Minister ymdrin â hwy. Mae’n dal i beri siom, er nad takes no political responsibility for what went yw’n syndod, nad yw’r Gweinidog yn derbyn wrong, or acknowledges that there are still unrhyw gyfrifoldeb gwleidyddol am yr hyn a real and present concerns. aeth o’i le, nac yn cydnabod bod pryderon gwirioneddol o hyd.

The Audit Committee’s first report raises Mae adroddiad cyntaf y Pwyllgor Archwilio questions about the political decision-making yn codi cwestiynau ynghylch y during ELWa’s establishment. The Minister penderfyniadau gwleidyddol a wnaed wrth still refuses to acknowledge or to respond to sefydlu ELWa. Mae’r Gweinidog yn dal i these concerns. There are still important wrthod cydnabod neu ymateb i’r pryderon issues that the Education and Lifelong hyn. Mae materion pwysig o hyd y dylid Learning Committee should be enabled to galluogi’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol investigate thoroughly. In her statement, the Oes i ymchwilio iddynt yn drylwyr. Yn ei Minister attempted to say that there were datganiad, honnai’r Gweinidog fod materion issues in the past, and that all is well now. wedi codi yn y gorffennol, a bod popeth yn However, you will remember, Minister, iawn bellach. Fodd bynnag, Weinidog, quoting to me last week in response to byddwch yn cofio dyfynnu yr wythnos concerns that I raised about work-based diwethaf, mewn ymateb i bryderon a godais training, a letter that had been sent out the am hyfforddiant sy’n seiliedig ar waith, o day before from ELWa to training providers. lythyr a anfonwyd gan ELWa y diwrnod cynt In that letter to training providers, ELWa says at ddarparwyr hyfforddiant. Yn y llythyr that all pieces of the jigsaw are not fully in hwnnw at ddarparwyr hyfforddiant, dywed place. ELWa nad yw pob darn o’r jig-so yn ei le eto.

On my copy of the letter, one training Ar fy nghopi i o’r llythyr, mae un darparwr provider has written: hyfforddiant wedi ysgrifennu:

‘This is hopeless—I still cannot plan.’ Mae hyn yn anobeithiol—ni allaf gynllunio o hyd.

Will you acknowledge that this is not the sign A wnewch gydnabod nad yw hyn yn arwydd of an organisation that has sorted itself out o gorff sydd wedi rhoi trefn ar ei bethau ac and is enabled to move on? These are serious sydd wedi’i alluogi i symud ymlaen? issues that still need to be addressed. The Materion difrifol yw’r rhain sy’n gofyn sylw extension to current contracts helps, but it o hyd. Mae’r estyniad i gontractau cyfredol does not deal with the medium-term issues. yn gymorth, ond nid yw hynny’n fodd i ddelio â materion yn y tymor canolig.

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It was difficult to come up with specific Yr oedd yn anodd meddwl am gwestiynau questions based on the Minister’s statement, penodol ar sail datganiad y Gweinidog, gan ei because it says so little. However, I have fod yn dweud cyn lleied. Er hynny, llwyddais managed to come up with a few. The i feddwl am ychydig. Bydd y Gweinidog yn Minister will recall my asking in the cofio fy mod wedi gofyn yng nghyfarfod Education and Lifelong Learning diwethaf y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Committee’s last meeting whether ELWa’s Oes a fydd cynllun gweithredu ELWa—a action plan—which, I believe, was then being elwid yn gynllun adfer bryd hynny, yr wyf yn described as a recovery plan—will now be credu—yn cael ei gyhoeddi. A allwch published. Can you confirm today, Minister, gadarnhau heddiw, Weinidog, na fydd that that will not be the case, because the hynny’n digwydd, oherwydd ni fydd y Committee, and Members in Plenary, will not Pwyllgor, ac Aelodau yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, be able to monitor against the action plan and yn gallu monitro yn ôl y cynllun gweithredu will not be able to say whether they believe ac ni fyddant yn gallu dweud a gredant ei fod that it is adequate unless they see it publicly? yn ddigonol oni chaiff ei gyhoeddi? A ydych Are you prepared to publish the terms of yn barod i gyhoeddi’r cylch gorchwyl ar reference for the independent study that you gyfer yr astudiaeth annibynnol yr ydych have commissioned jointly with the Finance wedi’i chomisiynu ar y cyd â’r Gweinidog Minister? We welcome this, but we would Cyllid? Croesawn hynny, ond carem weld like to see what exactly it is being asked to beth yn union y gofynnir iddi ei astudio. A study. Can you tell us what steps you have allwch ddweud pa gamau a gymerasoch i taken to ensure that the new chief executive sicrhau bod gan y prif weithredwr newydd a’r and the new chair will have the capabilities to cadeirydd newydd y gallu i ymgymryd â’r undertake such an enormous task? The dasg anferth hon? Yr oedd gwaith aruthrol original people had an enormous job to do, gan y rhai gwreiddiol, ond mae ganddynt but they now have an even bigger job to put waith mwy byth yn awr wrth ymateb i concerns right and to readdress—even if the bryderon ac adfer hyder—hyd yn oed os yw’r concerns are now historical— issues of pryderon yn y gorffennol bellach—ymysg confidence in training providers and darparwyr hyfforddiant ac addysgwyr. Yn educators. Finally, I ask again—although I olaf, gofynnaf eto—er y credaf fy mod yn believe that I know the answer—will you gwybod yr ateb—a wnewch dderbyn ever take political responsibility for this cyfrifoldeb gwleidyddol byth am y llanastr mess? hwn?

Jane Davidson: Thank you, Helen Mary, for Jane Davidson: Diolch i chi, Helen Mary, being predictable. Once again, you have not am fod yn rhagweladwy. Unwaith eto, nid acknowledged achievements against targets. ydych wedi cydnabod cyflawniadau yn erbyn ELWa has achieved against the educational targedau. Mae ELWa wedi llwyddo yn erbyn targets set by the Assembly. Trainees in y targedau addysgol a bennwyd gan y work-based learning are up against target by Cynulliad. Mae nifer yr hyfforddeion mewn 12 per cent. Organisations gaining dysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith 12 y cant yn recognition as Investors in People are up uwch na’r targed. Mae nifer y cyrff sy’n against target by 22 per cent. The number of ennill cydnabyddiaeth fel Buddsoddwyr companies supported by workforce mewn Pobl 22 y cant yn uwch na’r targed. development is up against target by 7 per Mae nifer y cwmnïau sy’n derbyn cymorth i cent. The knowledge exploitation fund is 240 ddatblygu eu gweithlu 7 y cant yn uwch na’r per cent over target, supporting 1,977 targed. Mae’r gronfa defnyddio gwybodaeth companies. Learners from the poorest Welsh 240 y cant yn uwch na’r targed, ac yn wards on work-based learning programmes cynorthwyo 1,977 o gwmnïau. Mae nifer y are up against target by 36 per cent. Modern dysgwyr o wardiau tlotaf Cymru ar raglenni apprenticeship recruits are up against target dysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith 36 y cant yn by 10 per cent. It is important that I make uwch na’r targed. Mae’r nifer a gafodd eu those achievements against targets known to recriwtio i brentisiaethau modern 10 y cant the Assembly once again, because you refuse yn uwch na’r targed. Mae’n bwysig fy mod

54 01/07/2003 to acknowledge at all points the contribution yn rhoi gwybod i’r Cynulliad unwaith eto am made to learners in Wales. y cyflawniadau hynny yn erbyn targedau, gan eich bod bob amser yn gwrthod cydnabod y cyfraniad a wnaed ar gyfer dysgwyr yng Nghymru.

The Assembly Government has fully Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi ymateb responded to the Audit Committee, as it is yn llawn i’r Pwyllgor Archwilio, fel y mae’n bound by Standing Orders, within the 30 gorfod gwneud o dan y Rheolau Sefydlog, o days on the issues raised in the first Audit fewn 30 niwrnod ar y materion a godwyd yn Committee report. In my response to your adroddiad cyntaf y Pwyllgor Archwilio. Yn question last week, Helen Mary, the letter fy ymateb i’ch cwestiwn yr wythnos that went to training providers, which was diwethaf, Helen Mary, yr oedd y llythyr a welcomed by the National Training anfonwyd at ddarparwyr hyfforddiant, a Federation on behalf of training providers in groesawyd gan y Ffederasiwn Hyfforddiant Wales, said that contracts would be extended Cenedlaethol ar ran darparwyr hyfforddiant to the end of the calendar year and that a yng Nghymru, yn dweud y byddid yn comprehensive tendering exercise in the ymestyn contractau hyd ddiwedd y flwyddyn autumn will allow 18-month contracts to be galendr ac y bydd ymarfer tendro awarded, which will provide longer-term cynhwysfawr yn yr hydref yn caniatáu stability and planning continuity. The dyfarnu contractau 18 mis, a fydd yn rhoi ultimate review of numbers is taking place sefydlogrwydd yn y tymor hwy a pharhad o this week. The National Training Federation, ran cynllunio. Cynhelir yr adolygiad terfynol which I am meeting on 15 July to consider o niferoedd yr wythnos hon. Mae’r the outcome of that review, welcomes that. Ffederasiwn Hyfforddiant Cenedlaethol, y byddaf yn cwrdd ag ef ar 15 Gorffennaf i ystyried canlyniad yr adolygiad hwnnw, yn croesawu hynny.

In terms of the action plan, ELWa O ran y cynllun gweithredu, daw representatives will come before the cynrychiolwyr o ELWa gerbron y Pwyllgor i Committee to discuss that plan, which will be drafod y cynllun hwnnw a ddarperir i made available to Committee members for aelodau’r Pwyllgor ar gyfer y cyfarfod ym the September meeting. When Sue Essex and Medi. Pan fydd Sue Essex a minnau wedi I have finally agreed on the terms under cytuno’n derfynol ar ba delerau y bydd y which the independent organisation will corff annibynnol yn ystyried y cynllun consider the action plan, we will make them gweithredu, byddwn yn eu darparu i Aelodau. available to Members.

Jeff Cuthbert: The statement sets out the Jeff Cuthbert: Mae’r datganiad yn rhoi situation that ELWa faces in a balanced way. disgrifiad cytbwys o’r sefyllfa y mae ELWa I believe that we can be confident that the yn ei hwynebu. Credaf y gallwn fod yn audit process will identify and resolve any ffyddiog y bydd y broses archwilio yn canfod problems. Do you agree, however, that the ac yn datrys unrhyw broblemau. A ydych yn continual failure of ELWa’s critics to cytuno, fodd bynnag, bod methiant parhaus mention the value of its help to businesses, beirniaid ELWa i sôn am werth ei gymorth i such as support for staff training, and the fusnesau, fel y cymorth i hyfforddi staff, a’r Investors in People programme—which rhaglen Buddsoddwyr mewn Pobl—sydd exceeded its target—only serves to wedi rhagori ar ei tharged—yn tanseilio undermine learners’ achievements and cyflawniadau dysgwyr ac i chwalu hyder yng destroys confidence in ELWa’s services to ngwasanaethau ELWa ar gyfer busnesau? business? We know that difficulties still need Gwyddom fod anawsterau sydd angen eu to be resolved, such as the concerns of some datrys o hyd, fel y pryderon sydd gan rai training providers. However, do you agree darparwyr hyfforddiant. Er hynny, a that we must maintain a sense of proportion gytunwch fod rhaid inni weld pethau yn eu

55 01/07/2003 and demonstrate our confidence in the gwir oleuni a dangos ein hymddiriedaeth ym professionalism of ELWa’s front-line staff? mhroffesiynoldeb staff rheng flaen ELWa?

Jane Davidson: It is important that the Jane Davidson: Mae’n bwysig na wnaiff y Assembly does nothing to undermine Cynulliad ddim i danseilio cyflawniadau learners’ achievements. There has been a 3 dysgwyr. Bu cynnydd o 3 y cant yng per cent increase in learner participation rates nghyfraddau cyfranogi dysgwyr yng in Wales. We have more learners in our Nghymru. Mae gennym fwy o ddysgwyr yn system than ever before. As my statement ein system nag erioed o’r blaen. Fel yr eglurir fully explains, the practices followed at yn llawn yn fy natganiad, mae’r arferion a ELWa are unacceptable and contravene ddilynwyd yn ELWa yn annerbyniol ac Government accounting rules. However, that maent yn groes i reolau cyfrifyddu’r does not in any way contradict the points that Llywodraeth. Er hynny, nid yw hynny’n you have made, Jeff. Every Assembly gwrth-ddweud o gwbl y pwyntiau a Member, while denigrating problems that wnaethoch chi, Jeff. Dylai pob Aelod o’r should not have arisen, should also be Cynulliad, wrth feirniadu problemau na continually looking for opportunities to ddylent fod wedi codi, chwilio’n barhaus expand learning in Wales. hefyd am gyfleoedd i ehangu dysgu yng Nghymru.

David Davies: How many leading members David Davies: Â sawl aelod blaenllaw o of the Welsh business community have you gymuned fusnes Cymru yr ydych wedi siarad spoken to about ELWa? I have spoken to two ynghylch ELWa? Yr wyf fi wedi siarad â dau during the past fortnight, who described yn ystod y pythefnos diwethaf, a ddisgrifiodd ELWa in terms that would contravene ELWa gan ddefnyddio geiriau a fyddai’n Standing Orders and the BBC watershed. groes i’n Rheolau Sefydlog ac na allai’r BBC Your statement raises far more questions than eu darlledu mor gynnar yn y dydd. Mae’ch it answers. You spoke about the datganiad yn codi llawer mwy o gwestiynau comprehensive review of other council nag y mae’n eu hateb. Gwnaethoch sôn am yr contracts that has taken place and how no adolygiad cynhwysfawr a gafwyd o new issues have been raised. Does that mean gontractau eraill o eiddo’r cyngor a dweud na that you are now confirming that only one chodwyd unrhyw faterion newydd. A yw improper, up-front payment was made, or hynny’n golygu eich bod yn cadarnhau’n awr were there others? Does your comment about mai dim ond un taliad ymlaen llaw amhriodol no new issues relate to specific up-front a wnaed, neu a oedd eraill? A yw’ch sylw contracts or to the general policy that ELWa nad oes unrhyw faterion newydd yn appeared to have had of making up-front ymwneud â chontractau penodol lle y talwyd payments? ymlaen llaw neu’r polisi cyffredinol a oedd gan ELWa, i bob golwg, o roi taliadau ymlaen llaw?

You say that steps have been taken to recruit Dywedwch fod camau wedi’u cymryd i a new chief executive. Will the current acting recriwtio prif weithredwr newydd. A chief executive be allowed to apply for that ganiateir i’r prif weithredwr gweithredol job? He worked closely with the chair in a presennol ymgeisio am y swydd honno? Bu’n different body prior to working for ELWa, he gweithio’n agos gyda’r cadeirydd mewn corff was recruited without any proper selection gwahanol cyn dod i weithio i ELWa, cafodd procedure, and many people think that it ei recriwtio heb fynd drwy unrhyw would be wrong for him to be allowed to weithdrefn ddethol briodol, ac mae llawer o’r apply for the job of chief executive farn na fyddai’n iawn caniatáu iddo ymgeisio considering what has taken place. You say am swydd y prif weithredwr yng ngolwg yr that monitoring is now taking place. Have hyn sydd wedi digwydd. Dywedwch fod your monitors considered how much is being monitro’n digwydd bellach. A yw’r rhai sy’n spent on public relations and marketing, monitro ar eich rhan wedi ystyried faint sy’n particularly in view of the fact that ELWa cael ei wario ar gysylltiadau cyhoeddus a

56 01/07/2003 representatives will not currently participate marchnata, yn enwedig yng ngolwg y ffaith in radio interviews? I wonder what the public na wnaiff cynrychiolwyr ELWa gymryd rhan relations people are doing. Are the monitors mewn cyfweliadau ar y radio ar hyn o bryd? considering whether money was spent on a Beth y mae’r bobl cysylltiadau cyhoeddus yn DVD suite, studio lights and a plasma screen, ei wneud, tybed? A yw’r rhai sy’n monitro yn which were purchased by a private company ystyried a wariwyd arian ar ystafell DVD, ar with ELWa’s money, and which have not oleuadau stiwdio a sgrîn plasma, a brynwyd been used to train anyone? ELWa refuses to gan gwmni preifat ag arian ELWa, ac sydd talk about that and cites commercial heb eu defnyddio i hyfforddi neb? Mae confidentiality. I say that it has spent that ELWa yn gwrthod siarad am hynny gan money on those resources. What do you have gyfeirio at gyfrinachedd masnachol. Dywedaf to say about that, Minister? You talk about ei fod wedi gwario’r arian hwnnw ar yr weaknesses in operating important business adnoddau hynny. Beth sydd gennych chi i’w systems, but you are actually referring to the ddweud am hynny, Weinidog? Yr ydych yn fact that you established ELWa with no sôn am wendidau wrth weithredu systemau financial standing orders. You speak coyly busnes pwysig, ond yr ydych yn cyfeirio about an absence of the usual expected mewn gwirionedd at y ffaith eich bod wedi business standards. In other words, Minister, sefydlu ELWa heb unrhyw reolau sefydlog by your own admission, ELWa has been ariannol. Soniwch yn dawedog am ddiffyg o incompetent. You tell us that we may be ran y safonau busnes a ddisgwylid fel arfer. reassured and that lessons have been learnt. Mewn geiriau eraill, Weinidog, drwy eich The only lesson that we can learn from this is cyfaddefiad eich hun, bu ELWa yn that it is possible for you, as an Assembly anghymwys. Dywedwch wrthym y cawn fod Minister, to set up a quango with a budget of yn dawel ein meddwl a bod gwersi wedi’u £500 million without any proper financial dysgu. Yr unig wers y gallwn ni ddysgu oddi Standing Orders. Furthermore, the chair, the wrth hyn oedd bod modd i chi, yn Weinidog chief executive and other senior management Cynulliad, sefydlu cwango gyda chyllideb o of that quango have displayed a complete £500 miliwn heb unrhyw Reolau Sefydlog lack of financial competence, yet have still ariannol priodol. At hynny, mae’r cadeirydd, kept their jobs. Is it not the case that no y prif weithredwr ac uwch reolwyr eraill y amount of warm words, spin or bland civil cwango hwnnw wedi dangos analluogrwydd service jargon can hide the fact that ariannol llwyr, ac eto wedi cadw eu swyddi. something is deeply wrong at the core of Onid yw’n wir na fydd unrhyw eiriau braf, post-16 education in Wales, and that you, sbin neu jargon di-liw’r gwasanaeth sifil yn Minister, are responsible for it? ddigon i gelu’r ffaith bod rhywbeth mawr o’i le wrth wraidd addysg ôl-16 yng Nghymru, ac mai chi, Weinidog, sy’n gyfrifol am hynny?

4.00 p.m.

Jane Davidson: Thank you for repeating the Jane Davidson: Diolch i chi am ailadrodd y rant that I heard on Radio Wales this brygowthan a glywais ar Radio Wales y bore morning; that was almost word-for-word, so yma; yr oedd hynny’n ailadrodd air am air now we have your script. I have talked to bron, felly mae’ch sgript gennym bellach. Yr business representatives, and am meeting wyf wedi siarad â chynrychiolwyr busnes, ac members of the Confederation of British yr wyf yn cwrdd ag aelodau o Industry to discuss a range of education Gydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain i drafod issues. Business supported the principle of amryw o faterion sy’n ymwneud ag addysg. establishing Education and Learning Wales, Yr oedd busnes o blaid yr egwyddor o as did most Assembly Members. ELWa sefydlu Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru, fel yr ensures a level playing field in education, a oedd y rhan fwyaf o Aelodau’r Cynulliad. greater emphasis on key skills, and provides Mae ELWa yn sicrhau chwarae teg mewn greater opportunities for learners in Wales. addysg, mwy o bwyslais ar sgiliau allweddol, On the comprehensive review of the ac yn cynnig mwy o gyfleoedd i ddysgwyr

57 01/07/2003 council’s contracts, the interim chief yng Nghymru. Ynghylch yr adolygiad executive wanted to reassure himself, council cynhwysfawr o gontractau’r cyngor, yr oedd members and the Assembly Government— y prif weithredwr dros dro am gael sicrwydd with the education department as the sponsor iddo’i hun, i aelodau’r cyngor ac i department—that no issues that had not been Lywodraeth y Cynulliad—â’r adran addysg properly addressed remained within the fel yr adran sy’n ei noddi—nad oedd unrhyw internal audit process. His reassurance is faterion a oedd heb eu trin yn briodol drwy’r important: all aspects are now being properly broses archwilio mewnol. Mae’r sicrwydd a addressed. roddodd yn bwysig: mae pob agwedd yn cael ei thrin yn briodol yn awr.

I have made it clear on several occasions that Rhoddais ar ddeall ar sawl achlysur nad yw the Assembly Government has never Llywodraeth y Cynulliad erioed wedi permitted up-front payments; it contravenes a caniatáu taliadau ymlaen llaw; mae’n groes i Government accounting rule. That un o reolau cyfrifyddu’r Llywodraeth. information has been sent to all Assembly Anfonwyd y wybodaeth honno i’r holl gyrff sponsored public bodies and it will be cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad ac fe’i explored in the Audit Committee as the hystyrir yn y Pwyllgor Archwilio gan mai proper forum, as I said in my statement. hwnnw yw’r fforwm priodol, fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad.

You alleged that the interim chief executive Gwnaethoch honni bod y prif weithredwr was recruited without a proper selection dros dro wedi’i recriwtio heb fynd drwy procedure, but it is a well-established weithdrefn ddethol briodol, ond mae principle supported by business in Wales that secondio pobl sydd â’r sgiliau priodol yn people with the appropriate skills are egwyddor sefydledig a gefnogir gan fusnes seconded. The interim chief executive was yng Nghymru. Yr oedd y prif weithredwr already on secondment in ELWa when the dros dro eisoes ar secondiad yn ELWa pan council recognised that he had the gydnabu’r cyngor ei fod yn meddu ar y appropriate skills to take the action plan sgiliau priodol i fwrw ymlaen â’r cynllun forward. All the contact that officials, gweithredu. Mae pob cysylltiad a gafodd Members and I have had with the interim swyddogion, Aelodau a minnau â’r prif chief executive has reaffirmed that he has the weithredwr dros dro wedi cadarnhau ei fod skills and determination to ensure that ELWa yn meddu ar y sgiliau a’r penderfyniad sydd is put back on track. eu hangen i roi ELWa yn ôl ar y llwybr cywir.

Despite your many allegations about public Er gwaethaf eich honiadau am gysylltiadau relations, ELWa’s public relations budget is cyhoeddus, mae cyllideb cysylltiadau less than 0.04 per cent of its budget, which is cyhoeddus ELWa yn llai na 0.04 y cant o’i less than any other Assembly sponsored gyllideb, sy’n llai nag y mae unrhyw gorff public body spends on public relations. cyhoeddus arall a noddir gan y Cynulliad yn ei wario ar gysylltiadau cyhoeddus.

An accusation was made about the original Gwnaed cyhuddiad ynghylch adroddiad Audit Committee report that, when ELWa’s gwreiddiol y Pwyllgor Archwilio i’r perwyl executive had not adopted the proper bod gweithrediaeth ELWa heb fabwysiadu procurement practices, it went against the arferion caffael priodol wedi gwneud drwg organisation’s overall wellbeing. The Auditor i’r corff yn gyffredinol. Dywedodd yr General said that he fully accepted that the Archwilydd Cyffredinol ei fod yn llwyr people involved in the inappropriate dderbyn mai anwaith a gyflawnodd y rhai a procurement practices, which we do not fu’n gysylltiedig â’r arferion caffael endorse in any way, had operated acts of amhriodol, nad ydym yn eu cymeradwyo omission not of commission. mewn unrhyw fodd, ac nid camwaith.

58 01/07/2003

David Davies rose— David Davies a gododd—

The Presiding Officer: Order. David Y Llywydd: Trefn. David Davies, yr ydych Davies, you have asked your questions. The wedi gofyn eich cwestiynau. Mae’r Minister is replying. I want her to be heard in Gweinidog yn ateb. Dymunaf iddi gael ei relative quiet. chlywed mewn distawrwydd cymharol.

Jane Davidson: What David Davies has said Jane Davidson: Mae’r hyn a ddywedodd in the Chamber and on Radio Wales today is David Davies yn y Siambr ac ar Radio Wales clear: you want to intervene in the audit heddiw’n glir: yr ydych am ymyrryd yn y process. You asked a series of questions that broses archwilio. Gofynasoch gyfres o are included in the audit process. You did not gwestiynau sydd wedi’u cynnwys yn y broses listen to my response on work-based learning archwilio. Ni wnaethoch wrando ar fy last week, when I stated what action was ymateb ar ddysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith yr being taken, including this week’s action on wythnos diwethaf, pan nodais y camau a reviewing numbers. Your act of omission, oedd yn cael eu cymryd, gan gynnwys David, is that you are not prepared to be camau’r wythnos hon ar adolygu niferoedd. honest about what is happening. I repeat that Yr anwaith ar eich rhan chi, David, yw nad we will not tolerate standards not being ydych yn barod i ddweud y gwir am yr hyn achieved in terms of ELWa’s financial sy’n digwydd. Dywedaf eto na wnawn oddef procurement or any other matters relating to methiant i fodloni safonau yng nghyd-destun financial practices. Such practices will be caffael ariannol ELWa neu unrhyw faterion fully explored through the audit process. eraill sy’n ymwneud ag arferion ariannol. Ymchwilir yn llawn i arferion o’r fath drwy’r broses archwilio.

Peter Black: I start by recognising ELWa’s Peter Black: Dechreuaf drwy gydnabod many achievements in further education in cyflawniadau niferus ELWa ym maes addysg Wales, which we must acknowledge. bellach yng Nghymru, y mae’n rhaid inni eu However, concerns remain, as is clear from cydnabod. Mae pryderon o hyd, fodd bynnag, Members’ questions today. It is not yet time fel y gwelir yn ôl cwestiynau Aelodau to draw a line under those concerns. As you heddiw. Nid yw eto’n bryd rhoi’r pryderon said, ELWa representatives will appear hynny o’r neilltu. Fel y dywedasoch, bydd before the Education and Lifelong Learning cynrychiolwyr ELWa yn ymddangos gerbron Committee on a number of occasions this y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes sawl year, so we will have an opportunity to raise gwaith eleni, felly cawn gyfle i godi ein our concerns with them. pryderon gyda hwy.

Do you agree that it is important, as you said A ydych yn cytuno, fel y dywedasoch yn eich in your statement, that the internal funding datganiad, ei bod yn bwysig bod y trefniadau arrangements and the accounting procedures cyllido mewnol a’r gweithdrefnau are right? If that is not the case, there is cyfrifyddu’n iawn? Os nad ydych, mae severe danger of the mistakes that have been perygl dybryd y bydd y camgymeriadau a made being repeated. No Member wants to wnaed yn cael eu gwneud drachefn. Nid oes see that. Do you acknowledge that concerns yr un Aelod sy’n dymuno gweld hynny. A remain across Wales, particularly in terms of ydych yn cytuno bod pryderon o hyd ledled the budgets for work-based learning? Cymru, yn enwedig ynglŷn â’r cyllidebau ar According to some providers, these have led gyfer dysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith? Yn ôl directly to a reduction in training places on rhai darparwyr, mae’r rhain wedi arwain yn the foundation modern apprenticeship uniongyrchol at ostyngiad yn nifer y lleoedd programme. What action are you taking to hyfforddi yn y rhaglen prentisiaethau modern address those concerns and to tackle the sylfaen. Pa gamau yr ydych yn eu cymryd i shortages caused by the budgets? ymateb i’r pryderon hynny ac i fynd i’r afael â’r prinder y mae’r cyllidebau’n ei achosi?

59 01/07/2003

I notice that the National Council’s indicative Sylwaf fod y ffigurau yng nghyllideb budget figures for 2004-05, as stated in the ddynodol y Cyngor Cenedlaethol ar gyfer 2003-04 remit letter, show an increase of less 2004-05, fel y nodir yn y llythyr cylch gwaith than 2 per cent on the previous year. Given ar gyfer 2003-04, yn dangos cynnydd o lai na the concerns about work-based learning and 2 y cant o’i gymharu â’r flwyddyn flaenorol. the demands of the further education sector, O gofio’r pryderon ynghylch dysgu sy’n not to mention bids from the Association of seiliedig ar waith a gofynion y sector addysg Directors of Education in Wales and others, bellach, heb sôn am geisiadau oddi wrth do you believe that the increase is sufficient Gymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Addysg Cymru if the National Council is to fulfil the remit ac eraill, a ydych yn credu bod y cynnydd yn set in your remit letter earlier this year? Is it ddigon i alluogi’r Cyngor Cenedlaethol i not the case that the restructuring and the gyflawni’r cylch gorchwyl a nodwyd yn eich tightening-up of procedures mentioned in llythyr cylch gorchwyl yn gynharach eleni? your statement will not address all the issues Onid yw’n wir na fydd yr ad-drefnu a’r relating to ELWa’s further education tynhau ar weithdrefnau a grybwyllir yn eich provision, particularly in terms of resources? datganiad yn ymdrin â’r holl faterion sy’n Are you confident that ELWa is sufficiently gysylltiedig â darpariaeth addysg bellach resourced to fulfil its remit? How do you ELWa, yn enwedig o ran adnoddau? A ydych anticipate ELWa delivering a rapidly- yn sicr bod gan ELWa ddigon o adnoddau i expanding learning agenda in future years gyflawni ei gylch gorchwyl? Sut y with such modest increases in resources? rhagwelwch y bydd ELWa yn cyflawni agenda ar gyfer dysgu a fydd yn ehangu’n gyflym yn y blynyddoedd i ddod gyda cyn lleied o gynnydd yn ei adnoddau?

Jane Davidson: I am grateful to you for Jane Davidson: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi acknowledging ELWa’s achievements. My am gydnabod cyflawniadau ELWa. Nid yw statement is not an indication that it is time to fy natganiad yn arwydd ei bod yn bryd rhoi’r draw a line under these events; it is time to digwyddiadau hyn o’r neilltu; mae’n bryd start to put the record straight. We must dechrau egluro’r sefyllfa. Rhaid inni dderbyn recognise that only a small amount of the mai dim ond cyfran fach o’r £500 miliwn o £500 million spend is under scrutiny. We wariant sy’n cael ei harchwilio. Rhaid inni must also recognise that learning gydnabod hefyd fod y cyflawniadau o ran achievements in Wales are at their highest- dysgu yng Nghymru ar eu lefel uchaf erioed. ever level. I agree that the accounting Cytunaf fod yn rhaid i’r gweithdrefnau procedures must be right. That is why the cyfrifyddu fod yn iawn. Dyna pam y Assembly Government has taken the cymerodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad y camau appropriate action, is undertaking monitoring priodol, ac ymgymryd â monitro a gofyn am and has requested that an action plan be baratoi cynllun gweithredu ac am asesu prepared and independently assessed. That hwnnw’n annibynnol. Bydd hynny’n ennyn will give confidence to everyone, other than hyder ym mhawb, heblaw am y rhai sy’n those who are determined to continue to benderfynol o ddal i fychanu’r cyfleoedd i denigrate learning opportunities in Wales. ddysgu a geir yng Nghymru.

In my response to a question on work-based Yn fy ymateb i gwestiwn ar ddysgu sy’n learning in Plenary last week, I highlighted seiliedig ar waith yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yr that the council was reviewing the balance wythnos diwethaf, tynnais sylw at y ffaith between foundation modern apprenticeships bod y cyngor yn adolygu’r cydbwysedd and modern apprenticeships. I said that rhwng prentisiaethau modern sylfaen a organisations that are delivering foundation phrentisiaethau modern. Dywedais fod y modern apprenticeships are likely to see cyrff sy’n darparu prentisiaethau modern enhanced provision as a result of this week’s sylfaen yn debygol o weld cynnydd yn y review. Overall, there will be a 7 per cent ddarpariaeth ar eu cyfer o ganlyniad i’r increase in work-based learning provision. adolygiad yr wythnos hon. At ei gilydd, bydd When we discuss budget issues in Committee cynnydd o 7 y cant yn y ddarpariaeth o

60 01/07/2003 next week, I will seek the Committee’s ddysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith. Pan drafodwn support to ensure that the council has the faterion cyllideb yn y Pwyllgor yr wythnos right budget, which it needs if it is to deliver nesaf, ceisiaf gefnogaeth gan y Pwyllgor i the service that we require of it. sicrhau bod gan y cyngor y gyllideb iawn y bydd arno’i hangen os yw i ddarparu’r gwasanaeth yr ydym yn ei ofyn ganddo.

Leighton Andrews: You may be aware that, Leighton Andrews: Efallai y gwyddoch fy as a member of the Audit Committee, I mod, fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Archwilio, wedi requested at our last meeting that ELWa’s gofyn yn ein cyfarfod diwethaf am i outgoing chair and its previous chief gadeirydd ymadawol ELWa a’i brif executive attend the Audit Committee weithredwr blaenorol ddod i wrandawiad y hearing on issues relating to the Learn to Live Pwyllgor Archwilio ar faterion sy’n contract. I believe that they have questions to gysylltiedig â chontract Learn to Live. Credaf answer. Do you agree that it is essential that fod cwestiynau y dylent eu hateb. A the independent examination of the ELWa gytunwch ei bod yn hollbwysig i’r archwiliad action plan proceeds swiftly if ELWa’s new annibynnol o gynllun gweithredu ELWa fynd chair and chief executive are to start the rhagddo’n gyflym os yw cadeirydd a phrif process of restoring trust in the organisation? weithredwr newydd ELWa i gael cychwyn ar y broses o adfer ffydd yn y corff?

4.10 p.m.

Jane Davidson: It is right that the former Jane Davidson: Mae’n briodol i’r cyn brif chief executive and the outgoing chair appear weithredwr a’r cadeirydd ymadawol before the Audit Committee. We have put ymddangos gerbron y Pwyllgor Archwilio. robust Audit Committee processes in place, Rhoesom brosesau cadarn ar waith drwy’r as I described in my statement. I am sure that Pwyllgor Archwilio, fel y nodais yn fy Audit Committee members will ensure that natganiad. Hyderaf y bydd aelodau’r they adhere fully to the principles agreed at Pwyllgor Archwilio yn sicrhau eu bod yn the first meeting. These principles include: llwyr gydymffurfio â’r egwyddorion a proper examination of witnesses who appear gytunwyd yn y cyfarfod cyntaf. Ymysg yr before the Committee; not prejudging the egwyddorion hynny y mae: croesholi tystion Committee’s investigations by commenting sy’n ymddangos gerbron y Pwyllgor yn on National Audit Office reports prior to the briodol; peidio â rhagfarnu ynghylch report being considered in Committee; ymchwiliadau’r Pwyllgor drwy wneud briefing material for evidence sessions and sylwadau am adroddiadau’r Swyddfa Committee reports prior to publication being Archwilio Genedlaethol cyn i’r adroddiad made available to Committee members and gael ei ystyried gan y Pwyllgor; darparu not being made available more widely; and, deunydd briffio ar gyfer sesiynau cymryd where the Committee receives information in tystiolaeth ac adroddiadau Pwyllgor cyn eu confidence, members must respect the cyhoeddi i aelodau’r Pwyllgor a pheidio â’u confidentiality of the information. The Audit darparu’n fwy cyffredinol; ac, os yw’r Committee agreed these important principles, Pwyllgor yn derbyn gwybodaeth yn which will enable it to carry out its work gyfrinachol, rhaid i aelodau barchu effectively and properly, and not lead to the cyfrinachedd y wybodaeth. Cytunodd y situation seen before the election when we Pwyllgor Archwilio ar yr egwyddorion became aware of a leak, about which no pwysig hyn, a fydd yn ei alluogi i gyflawni ei action has been taken. waith yn effeithiol ac yn briodol, heb arwain at y sefyllfa a welwyd cyn yr etholiad pan ddaethom i wybod bod gwybodaeth gyfrinachol wedi’i datgelu, na chymerwyd camau yn ei chylch.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I am afraid, Minister, that Ieuan Wyn Jones: Mae arnaf ofn, Weinidog,

61 01/07/2003 you are wrong to protest again this afternoon eich bod yn anghywir eto’r prynhawn yma that Assembly Members wish only to make wrth daeru nad yw Aelodau’r Cynulliad ond headline-grabbing statements by raising am wneud datganiadau i gipio penawdau’r legitimate questions about ELWa’s role. You, newyddion drwy godi cwestiynau dilys am as Minister, should take responsibility for the rôl ELWa. Dylech chi, fel Gweinidog, deficiencies that are apparent in the national dderbyn cyfrifoldeb am y diffygion sy’n council. When you say that we do not amlwg yn y cyngor cenedlaethol. Dywedwch acknowledge ELWa’s good work, I remind nad ydym yn cydnabod gwaith da ELWa, ond you about the content of your statement—the yr wyf yn eich atgoffa am gynnwys eich first paragraph states that it will discuss datganiad—mae’r paragraff cyntaf yn datgan ELWa’s deficiencies. As you are asking us to y bydd yn ymdrin â diffygion ELWa. Gan respond to that, it is legitimate that we should eich bod yn gofyn inni ymateb i hynny, be raising questions about the national mae’n iawn inni ofyn cwestiynau am council’s performance and its departure from berfformiad y cyngor cenedlaethol a’r ffaith the Government’s accounting rules. Had you ei fod wedi gwyro oddi wrth reolau been prepared to come to Plenary and accept cyfrifyddu’r Llywodraeth. Pe buasech yn responsibility for that, we would not have to barod i ddod i’r Cyfarfod Llawn a derbyn repeat many of these questions. It is time, cyfrifoldeb am hynny, ni fyddem yn gorfod Minister, for you to accept responsibility for ailadrodd llawer o’r cwestiynau hyn. some of these issues. When you persist in Weinidog, mae’n bryd ichi dderbyn coming to the Chamber to say that everything cyfrifoldeb am rai o’r materion hyn. Gan eich is the responsibility of the Audit Committee, bod yn mynnu dod i’r Siambr a dweud mai while you are responsible for nothing, these cyfrifoldeb y Pwyllgor Archwilio yw popeth, questions will continue to be raised. ac nad ydych chi’n gyfrifol am ddim, parheir i ofyn y cwestiynau hyn.

We need to be clear about what you are Rhaid inni fod yn glir ynghylch yr hyn yr telling us today. You have said that breaches ydych yn ei ddweud wrthym heddiw. Yr of Government accounting rules will be ydych wedi dweud y bydd adolygiad o’r torri reviewed. The only breach that the public is ar reolau cyfrifyddu’r Llywodraeth. Yr unig aware of is the breach in relation to the Pop dor-rheol y mae’r cyhoedd yn ymwybodol Factory contract. Minister, are you aware of ohono yw’r un sy’n ymwneud â chontract y whether other contracts entered into by Ffatri Bop. Weinidog, a ydych yn gwybod a ELWa are in breach of Government oes contractau eraill gydag ELWa sy’n torri accounting rules? rheolau cyfrifyddu’r Llywodraeth?

Jane Davidson: I will continue to respond to Jane Davidson: Parhaf i ymateb i chi fel y you as previously. We should look at the gwneuthum o’r blaen. Dylem edrych ar y relationship between Assembly sponsored berthynas rhwng cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir public bodies and the Assembly Government. gan y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Ministers are responsible for overall policy Gweinidogion sy’n gyfrifol am bolisi a and direction and for issuing remit letters to chyfeiriad cyffredinol ac am roi llythyron ASPBs, which are then totally responsible for cylch gwaith i gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan their own decisions. ELWa is responsible for y Cynulliad sydd yn gwbl atebol am eu all operational matters, and it will have to penderfyniadau eu hun. ELWa sy’n gyfrifol account for itself as part of the Audit am bob mater gweithredol, a bydd yn rhaid Committee process. iddo ateb drosto’i hun fel rhan o broses y Pwyllgor Archwilio.

I am disappointed with your sleight of words Yr wyf yn siomedig â’ch dewis o eiriau because I did not talk about the deficiencies amwys oherwydd ni soniais am y diffygion in ELWa. I talked about the deficiencies in yn ELWa. Soniais am y diffygion o ran rhoi the application of proper procurement ar waith y gweithdrefnau caffael priodol sy’n procedures required by the Assembly ofynnol gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, a Government, and deficiencies in relation to diffygion mewn cysylltiad â phroblemau sy’n

62 01/07/2003 problems affecting a number of projects effeithio ar nifer o brosiectau a gomisiynwyd commissioned by the council around the gan y cyngor tua’r un pryd. Ni ddefnyddiais y same time. I did not use the phrase geiriau ‘diffygion yn ELWa’ fel egwyddor ‘deficiencies in ELWa’ as a general principle. gyffredinol. Soniais am y materion sy’n I talked about the issues that are, quite destun ymchwiliad gan y Pwyllgor properly, under Audit Committee Archwilio, a hynny’n gwbl briodol. Dyna investigation. That is why I said that there are pam y dywedais fod nifer o brosiectau a a number of projects commissioned by the gomisiynwyd tua’r un pryd gan y cyngor y council at broadly the same time that are mae’r Archwilydd Cyffredinol yn ymchwilio being independently investigated by the iddynt yn annibynnol. Mae 18 o brosiectau— Auditor General. There are 18 projects— [Torri ar draws.] [Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. We are Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae’r amser ar gyfer y already out of time on this statement. Please datganiad hwn wedi dod i ben eisoes. allow the Minister to finish. Gadewch i’r Gweinidog orffen, os gwelwch yn dda.

Jane Davidson: There are 18 projects in total Jane Davidson: Mae cyfanswm o 18 o in the innovation and development fund that brosiectau yn y gronfa arloesi a datblygu yn are being investigated. However, neither you destun ymchwiliad. Fodd bynnag, ni allwch nor I, nor any other Member, can make a chi na minnau, nac unrhyw Aelod arall, judgment about whether or not any or all or ddyfarnu ynghylch a yw unrhyw un neu’r some of those projects have breached cwbl neu rai o’r prosiectau hynny wedi torri government accounting rules until they are rheolau cyfrifyddu’r Llywodraeth hyd nes y properly dealt with through the Audit byddant wedi’u trafod yn briodol fel rhan o Committee process. broses y Pwyllgor Archwilio.

Pwyntiau o Drefn Points of Order

Jonathan Morgan: Point of order. I raise Jonathan Morgan: Pwynt o drefn. Codaf y this point of order under Standing Order No. pwynt o drefn hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.13, relating to guidance on tabling 6.13, sy’n ymwneud â chanllawiau ar amendments to motions. Last week, I gyflwyno gwelliannau i gynigion. Yr attempted to table an amendment to the wythnos diwethaf, ceisiais gyflwyno motion on the new Assembly building for gwelliant i’r cynnig ar adeilad newydd y debate today, but was prevented from doing Cynulliad sydd i’w drafod heddiw, ond fe’m so by the Table Office on the grounds that an hataliwyd rhag gwneud hynny gan y Swyddfa amendment cannot negate a motion. I was Gyflwyno ar y sail na all gwelliant negyddu informed that that did not accord with the cynnig. Fe’m hysbyswyd nad oedd yn unol practices followed by the Presiding Office, â’r arferion a ddilynir gan Swyddfa’r based, I understand, on practices followed in Llywydd, sy’n seiliedig, yr wyf yn deall, ar Parliament. However, I have checked the arferion a ddilynir yn y Senedd. Fodd Record of Proceedings, and, on Tuesday 20 bynnag, yr wyf wedi edrych ar Gofnod y July 1999, a similar debate was held on the Trafodion, ac, ar ddydd Mawrth 20 new Assembly building in which the then Gorffennaf 1999, cynhaliwyd dadl debyg ar First Secretary proposed a motion stating that adeilad newydd y Cynulliad lle y cynigiwyd the Assembly would be instructed to continue cynnig gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd ar y pryd yn the development of the new Assembly datgan y byddai’r Cynulliad yn cael ei building project with cost parameters and so gyfarwyddo i barhau i ddatblygu prosiect on. My colleague, Nick Bourne, tabled an adeilad newydd y Cynulliad gyda therfynau amendment to the motion, and proposed it in ar gost ac yn y blaen. Cyflwynodd fy nghyd- Plenary on 20 July 1999, which, had it been Aelod, Nick Bourne, welliant i’r cynnig, a’i

63 01/07/2003 carried, would have negated the original gynnig yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 20 motion. In fact, the amendment would have Gorffennaf 1999, a fyddai, o’i dderbyn, wedi inserted the word ‘not’ in between ‘should be negyddu’r cynnig gwreiddiol. Mewn instructed’ and the word ‘to’. I understand the gwirionedd, byddai’r gwelliant wedi position of the Table Office, which claims ychwanegu’r geiriau ‘beidio â’ rhwng ‘i’ a that precedents and the practice adopted by ‘barhau’. Deallaf safbwynt y Swyddfa the Assembly would prevent me from tabling Gyflwyno, sy’n honni y byddai cynseiliau a’r a similar amendment now. However, it seems arfer a fabwysiadwyd gan y Cynulliad yn fy that, according to previous practices and rhwystro rhag cyflwyno gwelliant tebyg yn established convention, the Table Office had awr. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys fod y allowed a similar amendment to be tabled in Swyddfa Gyflwyno, yn ôl arferion blaenorol the past. a chonfensiwn sefydledig, wedi caniatáu cyflwyno gwelliant tebyg yn y gorffennol.

Secondly, there is guidance on the Yn ail, mae canllawiau ar ba welliannau sy’n acceptability of amendments under the dderbyniol o dan y canllawiau cyffredinol ar general guidance on tabling motions, and gyflwyno cynigion, ac mae pwynt 9.2 yn point 9.2 states that amendments can dweud y gall gwelliannau

‘modify a motion in such a way as to increase addasu cynnig yn y fath fodd ag i’w wneud its acceptability or to present to the Assembly yn fwy derbyniol neu gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad a different proposition as an alternative to the gynnig gwahanol fel dewis gwahanol yn lle’r original motion.’ cynnig gwreiddiol.

In addition, point 3 of the guidance on the Yn ogystal, mae pwynt 3 o’r canllawiau ar grouping, selection and refusal of grwpio, dethol a gwrthod gwelliannau’n amendments lists reasons as to why an rhestru rhesymau pam y gellid barnu bod amendment may be deemed to be gwelliant yn annerbyniol. Nid yw negyddu unacceptable. The negation of a motion is not cynnig wedi’i gynnwys yn y rhestr honno. included in that list. Therefore, I seek your Gan hynny, ceisiaf ddyfarniad gennych: a ruling: was my amendment out of order oedd fy ngwelliant allan o drefn yn ôl y according to the current written guidance? canllawiau ysgrifenedig cyfredol? Hefyd, a Also, was it out of order according to oedd allan o drefn yn ôl confensiynau established conventions, bearing in mind that sefydledig, o gofio bod arferion gwahanol o’r previous practices differed, particularly those blaen, yn enwedig y rhai a fabwysiadwyd yn that were happily adopted on Tuesday 20 ddigon bodlon ddydd Mawrth 20 Gorffennaf July 1999? 1999?

The Presiding Officer: I am grateful to you Y Llywydd: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am for giving me advance notice of this point of roi rhybudd ymlaen llaw i mi o’r pwynt o order, enabling me to provide you with a drefn hwn, fel bod modd imi roi ateb reasoned reply. I congratulate you on your rhesymedig i chi. Fe’ch llongyfarchaf ar eich research, extending as far back as 1999. On ymchwil, a aeth cyn belled yn ôl â 1999. that precedent, we have perhaps improved Ynghylch y cynsail hwnnw, mae’n bosibl our understanding of conventions and bod ein dealltwriaeth o gonfensiynau a parliamentary rules of order since 1999—not rheolau trefniadaeth seneddol wedi gwella ers perhaps unconnected with the quality of 1999—ac efallai fod hynny’n gysylltiedig ag advice that we now receive, for which I am ansawdd y cyngor a dderbyniwn bellach, y always grateful—[Interruption.] Order. There byddaf bob amser yn ddiolchgar amdano— should be no cause for gasping at that point. [Torri ar draws.] Trefn. Nid oedd achos i We receive high-quality parliamentary advice ebychu ynghylch y pwynt hwnnw. Cawn in this Assembly, for which I am extremely gyngor seneddol o ansawdd da yn y grateful. Cynulliad hwn, ac yr wyf yn dra diolchgar amdano.

64 01/07/2003

It is an accepted parliamentary convention Mae’n gonfensiwn seneddol sefydledig na that amendments should not directly negate ddylai gwelliannau negyddu cynnig yn the terms of the motion. The proper method uniongyrchol. Y modd priodol i fynegi barn of expressing a contrary opinion is to vote groes yw pleidleisio yn erbyn cynnig. Gan against a motion. Therefore, I am content that hynny, yr wyf yn fodlon bod y Swyddfa the Table Office has exercised its judgment Gyflwyno wedi barnu’n briodol y tro hwn, ac properly on this occasion, and on most ar y rhan fwyaf o achlysuron tebyg yn y similar occasions in the past. I am content gorffennol. Yr wyf yn fodlon y dylai that it should act similarly in future. I hope weithredu yn yr un modd yn y dyfodol. that that now provides Members with greater Gobeithiaf fod hynny’n gwneud y mater hwn, clarity on this issue as it currently stands. fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, yn fwy eglur i However—and I believe that this is what Aelodau. Fodd bynnag—a chredaf mai am Jonathan Morgan is waiting for—his point hyn y mae Jonathan Morgan yn disgwyl— was well made. Matters such as this should gwnaeth bwynt da. Dylai materion fel hyn be reflected in our guidance, as well as gael eu hadlewyrchu yn ein canllawiau, yn through convention. Precedents, even in ogystal â thrwy gonfensiwn. Gall cynseiliau many parliamentary traditions, can vary, as amrywio, hyd yn oed mewn llawer o astute readers of Erskine May, and other draddodiadau seneddol, fel y gŵyr guidance to parliamentary procedure darllenwyr craff Erskine May, a chanllawiau throughout the Commonwealth, will know. I eraill ar weithdrefn seneddol ledled y am sure that there are many readers of such Gymanwlad. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod llawer sy’n books in this Chamber. I therefore ask the darllen llyfrau o’r fath yn y Siambr hon. Gan Business Committee to advise me on revised hynny, gofynnaf i’r Pwyllgor Busnes fy guidance to reflect my ruling on this matter, nghynghori ar ganllawiau diwygiedig i and to expand on it if necessary. Such a adlewyrchu fy nyfarniad ar y mater hwn, ac i review might also usefully include a more ymhelaethu arno os oes angen. Gallai hefyd general review of the guidance on motions fod yn fuddiol i adolygiad o’r fath gynnwys and amendments, to ensure that all our adolygiad mwy cyffredinol o’r canllawiau ar guidance is as clear and accessible as gynigion a gwelliannau, er mwyn sicrhau bod possible, and reflects the practice that has ein holl ganllawiau mor eglur a dealladwy ag developed in the Assembly since it was first y bo modd, a’u bod yn adlewyrchu’r arferion adopted in 1999. I hope that Members will a ddatblygodd yn y Cynulliad ers eu find that helpful. mabwysiadu gyntaf yn 1999. Gobeithiaf y bydd Aelodau’n cael bod hynny o gymorth.

4.20 p.m.

Janet Davies: Point of order. I believe that Janet Davies: Pwynt o drefn. Credaf ei bod the Assembly may have been inadvertently yn bosibl bod y Cynulliad wedi’i gamarwain misled with regard to the summoning of drwy amryfusedd mewn cysylltiad â gwysio witnesses to the Audit Committee. The Audit tystion i’r Pwyllgor Archwilio. Yr unig rai y Committee can only summon as witnesses gall y Pwyllgor Archwilio eu gwysio’n those accounting officers with particular dystion yw’r swyddogion cyfrifo hynny â responsibility who are in post. In exceptional chyfrifoldeb penodol sydd yn eu swyddi ar circumstances, it is possible to invite other hyn o bryd. Mewn amgylchiadau eithriadol, people to attend, and this particular case may mae modd gwahodd eraill i fod yn bresennol, well be exceptional. However, the Assembly ac mae’n ddigon posibl bod yr achos penodol should not think that it is normal procedure. hwn yn eithriad. Er hynny, ni ddylai’r Cynulliad gredu mai dyna’r weithdrefn arferol.

Leighton Andrews: Further to that point of Leighton Andrews: Ymhellach i’r pwynt o order, I clarify that I said that I had requested drefn hwnnw, egluraf imi ddweud fy mod the attendance of the outgoing chair and the wedi gofyn am bresenoldeb y cadeirydd previous chief executive. I did not suggest ymadawol a’r prif weithredwr blaenorol. Nid

65 01/07/2003 that we have the power to compel them to awgrymais fod gennym bŵer i’w gorfodi i attend. However, I believe that they have an fod yn bresennol. Er hynny, credaf fod obligation to come before the Audit dyletswydd arnynt i ddod gerbron y Pwyllgor Committee and to account for what has Archwilio i egluro’r hyn a ddigwyddodd o happened under their stewardship. dan eu stiwardiaeth.

The Presiding Officer: Order. This is a Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mater i’r Pwyllgor matter for the Audit Committee, and I am Archwilio yw hwn, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar grateful for the explanations and the points am yr esboniadau a’r pwyntiau a wnaed. that have been made.

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion Composite Motion: Approval of Orders

Y Llywydd: Derbyniwyd hysbysiad o dan The Presiding Officer: Notice has been Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25(ii) mewn perthynas received under Standing Order No. 22.25(ii) â’r cynnig cyfansawdd a gyflwynwyd ar with regard to the composite motion tabled gyfer trafodaeth heddiw, sef NDM1517. Gan for debate today, NDM1517. As three fod tri Aelod wedi cyflwyno hysbysiad i Members have tabled a notice to ensure that sicrhau bod y Gorchmynion drafft yn cael eu the draft Orders are discussed separately, this trafod ar wahân, ni ellir cynnig y cynnig hwn motion cannot be proposed today. heddiw.

Sefydlu Pwyllgor y Mesur Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) The Establishment of the Public Audit (Wales) Bill Committee

The Presiding Officer: I have selected Y Llywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Morgan.

The Finance Minister (Sue Essex): I Y Gweinidog Cyllid (Sue Essex): Cynigiaf propose that fod the National Assembly establishes a y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn sefydlu Committee under Standing Order No. 8.1 to Pwyllgor o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 8.1 i advise the Assembly on the terms of the draft gynghori’r Cynulliad ar delerau’r Mesur Public Audit (Wales) Bill. The title of the Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) drafft. Teitl y Committee shall be the Public Audit (Wales) Pwyllgor fydd Pwyllgor y Mesur Archwilio Bill Committee. Membership of the Cyhoeddus (Cymru). Bydd pump Aelod o’r Committee shall comprise five Assembly Cynulliad ar y Pwyllgor, dau o’r Blaid Lafur Members, two from the Labour Party, and ac un yr un o Blaid Cymru, y Ceidwadwyr a’r one each from Plaid Cymru, the Conservative Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Party and the Liberal Democrat Party.

The terms of reference for the Committee will Cylch gorchwyl y Pwyllgor fydd: be to:

1) scrutinise the provisions of the draft Bill; 1) craffu ar ddarpariaethau’r Mesur drafft;

2) to take written or oral evidence from any 2) derbyn tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig a llafar parties the Committee considers will assist gan unrhyw garfan a fydd yn gallu helpu their consideration; gyda’i ystyriaeth ym marn y Pwyllgor;

3) report to the Assembly by 18 July on any 3) adrodd i’r Cynulliad erbyn 18 Gorffennaf

66 01/07/2003 amendments that the Committee recommends ar unrhyw ddiwygiadau y mae’r Pwyllgor yn should be made to the draft Bill. argymell y dylid eu gwneud i’r Mesur drafft.

The Committee shall cease to exist on 18 July Bydd bodolaeth y Pwyllgor yn dod i ben ar 2003. (NDM1519) 18 Gorffennaf 2003. (NDM1519)

We are currently involved in the pre-scrutiny Yr ydym yn cymryd rhan ar hyn o bryd yn y stages of the draft Public Audit (Wales) Bill, camau cyn craffu ar gyfer y Mesur Archwilio and the establishment of this Committee will Cyhoeddus (Cymru) drafft, a bydd sefydlu’r enable the Assembly to be part of this pre- Pwyllgor hwn yn galluogi’r Cynulliad i fod scrutiny process. The draft Bill has been yn rhan o’r broses cyn craffu hon. Bu’r subject to public consultation, which ended Mesur drafft yn destun ymgynghori on 27 June. The Welsh Affairs Select cyhoeddus, a ddaeth i ben ar 27 Mehefin. Committee has also considered it, and its Mae’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig report is expected shortly. The Assembly wedi’i ystyried hefyd, a disgwylir ei Government will give careful consideration adroddiad cyn hir. Bydd Llywodraeth y to the Public Audit (Wales) Bill Committee’s Cynulliad yn ystyried adroddiad Pwyllgor y report, together with the consultation Mesur Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) yn responses and the Welsh Affairs Select ofalus, ynghyd â’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghori Committee’s report, before issuing revised ac adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion instructions to the Parliamentary Counsel. Cymreig, cyn rhoi cyfarwyddiadau The aim of this Bill is to create a more diwygiedig i’r Cwnsler Seneddol. Nod y unified public accountability framework. Mesur hwn yw creu fframwaith mwy unedig This is better suited to the partnership way of ar gyfer atebolrwydd cyhoeddus. Mae hyn yn working that, over the last four years, the fwy addas i’r dull o weithio mewn Assembly has demonstrated as being so partneriaeth y dangosodd y Cynulliad, dros y important to what we do in Wales, and which pedair blynedd diwethaf, ei fod mor bwysig is still developing. i’r hyn a wnawn yng Nghymru, ac sy’n dal i ddatblygu.

The Audit Commission and the Auditor Mae’r Comisiwn Archwilio ac Archwilydd General for Wales undertake excellent work Cyffredinol Cymru yn cyflawni gwaith in helping to achieve the highest possible rhagorol o ran helpu i sicrhau’r safonau uchaf standards of financial accountability, but a posibl o atebolrwydd ariannol, ond byddai unitary audit arrangement would eliminate trefniant archwilio unedol yn dileu’r rhaniad the current and increasingly artificial split in presennol rhwng cyfrifoldebau—rhaniad sy’n responsibilities. The Assembly Government mynd yn fwyfwy artiffisial. Mae believes that the new arrangements will Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn credu y bydd y encourage the development and spread of trefniadau newydd yn hyrwyddo’r gwaith o innovative audit practice, while building on ddatblygu a lledaenu arferion archwilio existing high standards. The Bill will ensure arloesol, gan adeiladu ar sail y safonau uchel that the new body is outward looking, by presennol. Bydd y Mesur yn sicrhau bod y encouraging joint working between corff newydd yn un eangfrydig, drwy hybu regulatory bodies, both within Wales and gweithio ar y cyd rhwng cyrff rheoliadol, across the border. The opportunity to oddi mewn i Gymru a thros y ffin. Dylai’r harmonise essential value-for-money audit cyfle i gysoni’r gwaith archwilio hollbwysig i work should also lessen the practical burden sicrhau gwerth am arian fod yn fodd hefyd i on bodies that are subject to audit. ysgafnhau’r baich ymarferol ar gyrff sy’n cael eu harchwilio.

I will not support the amendment tabled in Ni chefnogaf y gwelliant a gyflwynwyd yn the name of Jonathan Morgan. We have enw Jonathan Morgan. Yr ydym wedi rhoi given a date and made a commitment to deal dyddiad ac wedi ymrwymo i ddelio â’r Mesur with this Bill before the end of the term. The hwn cyn diwedd y tymor. Byddai gwelliant y Tory amendment would introduce an Torïaid yn creu amhendantrwydd amhriodol.

67 01/07/2003 inappropriate vagueness.

Alun Cairns: I propose the following Alun Cairns: Cynigiaf y gwelliant canlynol amendment in the name of Jonathan Morgan. yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Gwelliant 1: ym Amendment 1: in point 3 delete ‘by 18 July’ mhwynt 3, dileu ‘erbyn 18 Gorffennaf’ ac and replace with ‘at the earliest opportunity’. ychwanegu ‘cyn gynted â phosibl’.

Amendment 1 was coupled with another Yr oedd gwelliant 1 wedi’i gyplysu â amendment that was ruled as being out of gwelliant arall y dyfarnwyd ei fod allan o order for technical reasons. Consequently drefn am resymau technegol. O ganlyniad i amendment 1 is ineffective and I therefore hynny, mae gwelliant 1 yn aneffeithiol ac yr withdraw it. wyf felly’n ei dynnu’n ôl.

The Welsh Conservative Party supports the Mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn cefnogi’r principles behind this Bill and we look egwyddorion sy’n sail i’r Mesur hwn ac forward to the scrutiny of the Bill. It is a edrychwn ymlaen at graffu ar y Mesur. Mae pragmatic and sensible move to unify the uno’r cyrff archwilio ar gyfer y gwahanol audit bodies for the different organisations gyrff y mae’r Cynulliad yn gyfrifol amdanynt for which the Assembly responsible. yn gam ymarferol a synhwyrol.

Mick Bates: The Welsh Liberal Democrats Mick Bates: Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol welcome the motion and that the Public Cymru yn croesawu’r cynnig a’r ffaith bod Audit (Wales) Bill is being taken forward by Llywodraeth San Steffan wedi cyflwyno the Westminster Government. This piece of Mesur Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru). primary legislation was proposed by the Cynigiwyd yr eitem hon o ddeddfwriaeth previous partnership Government during the sylfaenol gan y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth first Assembly. It was among the primary flaenorol yn ystod y Cynulliad cyntaf. Yr legislation proposals that came before the oedd yn un o blith y nifer o gynigion ar gyfer Assembly on 19 March 2002. The Bill has deddfwriaeth sylfaenol a ddaeth gerbron y the sensible aim of merging the functions of Cynulliad ar 19 Mawrth 2002. Nod the Audit Commission in Wales and the synhwyrol y Mesur yw cyfuno Auditor General for Wales to create one audit swyddogaethau’r Comisiwn Archwilio yng body for Wales. Mergers have already Nghymru ac Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru happened in Scotland and Northern Ireland. i greu un corff archwilio i Gymru. Cafwyd cyfuno eisoes yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon.

It is welcome that, through this Committee, Mae’r ffaith y bydd cyfle gan y Cynulliad, the Assembly will have an opportunity to drwy’r Pwyllgor hwn, i graffu ar Fesur sydd engage in pre-legislative scrutiny of a Wales- ar gyfer Cymru’n benodol cyn dechrau’r specific Bill. However, it is also a matter of broses ddeddfwriaethol i’w chroesawu. Serch regret, because the Welsh Liberal Democrats hynny, mae hefyd yn destun gofid, gan fod look forward to the day when the Assembly Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn edrych is reconstituted as a Welsh Senedd and can ymlaen at y dydd y caiff y Cynulliad ei pass its own primary legislation, without ailgyfansoddi’n Senedd i Gymru ac y caiff having to go cap in hand to Westminster. If wneud ei ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol ei hun, heb we had primary legislative powers, this orfod mynd ar ofyn San Steffan. Pe byddai sensible piece of legislation would already pwerau deddfu sylfaenol gennym, byddai’r have been passed, as has similar legislation in eitem synhwyrol hon o ddeddfwriaeth wedi’i Scotland and in Northern Ireland. This draft phasio eisoes, fel y gwnaed yn achos Bill is only the third Wales-specific piece of deddfwriaeth debyg yn yr Alban ac yng primary legislation since the Assembly was Ngogledd Iwerddon. Mae’r Mesur drafft hwn established. When the Public Audit (Wales) yn un o ddim ond tair eitem o ddeddfwriaeth Bill was put forward in March 2002, the sylfaenol a gafwyd ar gyfer Cymru’n benodol Assembly also proposed seven other Bills, ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Pan gyflwynwyd

68 01/07/2003 one of which was the St David’s Day Bill, Mesur Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) ym which was proposed, and rejected, for a Mawrth 2002, cynigiodd y Cynulliad saith second time. Anyone with half a brain can Mesur arall hefyd, ac un ohonynt oedd Mesur see that the process whereby we secure Dydd Gŵyl Dewi a gynigiwyd, ac a primary legislation is slow, cumbersome, wrthodwyd, am yr eildro. Gall rhywun sydd â inefficient and not particularly effective. hanner ymennydd weld bod y broses sydd gennym i sicrhau deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn araf, yn drwsgl, yn aneffeithlon a heb fod yn arbennig o effeithiol.

The Finance Minister (Sue Essex): I am Y Gweinidog Cyllid (Sue Essex): Yr wyf yn pleased to say that I have a whole brain. I falch o ddweud bod gennyf ymennydd cyfan. thank Alun for withdrawing amendment 1. I Diolchaf i Alun am dynnu gwelliant 1 yn ôl. commend the motion to Members. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i Aelodau.

Cynnig (NDM1519): O blaid 57, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Motion (NDM1519): For 57, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Barrett, Lorraine Bates, Mick Black, Peter Bourne, Nick Burnham, Eleanor Butler, Rosemary Cairns, Alun Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davidson, Jane Davies, Andrew Davies, David Davies, Glyn Davies, Janet Davies, Jocelyn Dunwoody-Kneafsey, Tamsin Essex, Sue Francis, Lisa German, Michael Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Gibbons, Brian Gwyther, Christine Hart, Edwina Hutt, Jane Idris Jones, Denise Isherwood, Mark James, Irene Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Laura Anne Law, Peter Lewis, Huw Lloyd, David Lloyd, Val Melding, David

69 01/07/2003

Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Jonathan Morgan, Rhodri Neagle, Lynne Pugh, Alun Randerson, Jenny Ryder, Janet Sargeant, Carl Sinclair, Karen Thomas, Catherine Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Williams, Brynle Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion carried.

Adeilad Newydd y Cynulliad The New Assembly Building

Y Llywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau The Presiding Officer: I have selected 1, 2 a 3 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.

Y Prif Weinidog: Cynigiaf fod The First Minister: I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn cytuno i the National Assembly for Wales agrees to wneud contract cyfandaliad ar gyfer adeilad enter into a lump-sum contract for the new Siambr newydd y Cynulliad gyda Taylor Assembly Chamber building with Taylor Woodrow Construction Cyf ar gost o Woodrow Construction Ltd at a cost of £40,997,000.00 (heb gynnwys TAW). £40,997,000.00 (exclusive of VAT). (NDM1518) (NDM1518)

Pan ddaeth y Prif Weinidog, Tony Blair, i’n When the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, came hannerch tua blwyddyn neu 18 mis yn ôl, to address us some 12 or 18 months ago, he daeth â llond bws o ohebwyr o Lundain. Yn brought with him a busload of journalists eu plith, yr oedd un a ddisgrifiodd y Siambr from London. There was one in their midst hon fel who described this Chamber as

‘the passenger lounge on an ageing cross- lolfa i deithwyr ar hen long fferi sy’n croesi’r channel ferry.’ sianel.

Disgrifiad lliwgar, doniol, sydd â rhyw ronyn That is a colourful, humorous description that o wirionedd ynddo o bosibl. Mae’n bwysig perhaps contains a grain of truth. It is inni gasglu o’r disgrifiad hwnnw bod important that we realise from that gwendidau ymarferol yn ein cyfleusterau description that our present facilities have presennol. Yr oedd hon yn Siambr dros dro practical flaws. This Chamber has always o’r cychwyn. Bu inni gymryd yr adeilad hwn been a temporary chamber. We took over this ac addasu’r ystafell hon i fod yn Siambr ar yr building and converted this room into a amod ei bod dros dro. Chamber on the condition that it was temporary.

4.30 p.m.

Ni allwn beidio ag adeiladu Siambr newydd, We cannot not build a new, permanent

70 01/07/2003 barhaol heb dorri amod y tirfeddiannwr, Chamber without breaking the condition Associated British Ports, a gadael ein hunain stipulated by the landowner, Associated yn agored i sialens gerbron llys barn am British Ports, and without leaving ourselves golledion torcytundeb. Ar yr amod hwnnw y open to a court challenge for damages for cafwyd y tir am £1 pan lofnodwyd y losses due to breach of contract. It was on cytundeb gydag ABP gan Ysgrifennydd that condition that the land was obtained for Gwladol Cymru yn 1998, cyn sefydlu’r £1 when the agreement was signed with ABP Cynulliad. by the Secretary of State for Wales in 1998, before the Assembly was established.

Leanne Wood: How much would the project Leanne Wood: Faint y byddai’r prosiect have cost had you not stopped it? In May wedi’i gostio pe na byddech wedi’i atal? Ym 2001, all the professionals agreed that it Mai 2001, yr oedd yr holl weithwyr would cost £24.1 million, including proffesiynol yn cytuno y costiai £24.1 contingencies. We now have a cost of £41 miliwn, gan gynnwys treuliau annisgwyl. million. Are we seeing an extra £17 million- Bellach mae gennym gost o £41 miliwn. A worth of building? No. It is more likely that welwn adeilad sy’n werth £17 miliwn yn that money has gone to line the pockets of ychwanegol? Na welwn. Mae’n fwy tebygol lawyers, consultants and advisers. Do you bod yr arian wedi mynd i lenwi pocedi accept personal responsibility for this cyfreithwyr, ymgynghorwyr a increase, which has given ammunition to the chyngoryddion. A ydych yn derbyn anti-devolutionists? If so, are you prepared to cyfrifoldeb personol am y cynnydd hwn, sy’n apologise to the people of Wales? fêl ar fysedd y rhai sy’n gwrthwynebu datganoli? Os ydych, a ydych yn barod i ymddiheuro i bobl Cymru?

The First Minister: That was a highly Y Prif Weinidog: Yr oedd hwnnw’n constructive contribution, Leanne; I gyfraniad tra adeiladol, Leanne; fe’ch compliment you on it. The problem is that canmolaf arno. Y broblem yw nad ydych yn you are not comparing like with like. This is cymharu pethau tebyg. Dyma’r tro cyntaf the first time that we have had a fixed-cost inni gael contract cost benodol. Os ydych yn contract. If you want to return to the dymuno mynd yn ôl at y dull contractwr management contractor method that we had rheoli a oedd gennym o’r blaen, dylech previously, you should consider our cousins ystyried ein cefndryd yn yr Alban, sydd wedi in Scotland, who have proceeded on that dilyn y dull hwnnw. Yn sicr, nid yw’r dull basis. The management contractor method is contractwr rheoli yn rhoi adeilad iddynt yn certainly not delivering a building on time for brydlon, ac yn bendant nid ydyw’n sicrhau them, and it is doing everything but adeilad am gost debyg i’r gost wreiddiol. delivering a building for anything close to the Mae’n debyg bod cost yr adeilad yn yr Alban original cost. The cost for the Scottish yn 10 gwaith y ffigur gwreiddiol bellach. building is now probably 10 times the Dyma’r tro cyntaf inni roi contract original figure. This is the first time that we cyfandaliad, cost benodol ar gyfer yr adeilad have had a fixed-cost, lump-sum contract for gerbron y Cynulliad. Er gwaethaf eich the building before the Assembly. Despite cyfraniad, Leanne, teg yw dweud i your contribution, Leanne, it is fair to say gefnogaeth tair plaid gael ei sicrhau bob tro y that, every time the Assembly has discussed mae’r Cynulliad wedi trafod y mater hwn. Ni this matter, three parties have supported it. fu’r mater gerbron y Cynulliad hwn, ond bob The matter has not been before this tro y trafodwyd yr adeilad yn y Cynulliad Assembly, but every time that the building cyntaf, cafwyd cefnogaeth i gyflawni was discussed in the first Assembly, there telerau’r cytundeb ag Associated British was support for executing the terms of the Ports fel y’i harwyddwyd gan Ysgrifennydd agreement with Associated British Ports as Gwladol Cymru yn 1998—y cytundeb lle y signed by the Secretary of State for Wales in cafwyd y tir cyfagos i’r adeilad hwn am £1. 1998, under which the land adjacent to this Y cwestiwn y prynhawn yma yw a fydd yr building was acquired for £1. The question hen long fferi’r môr Udd yn cyrraedd y

71 01/07/2003 this afternoon is whether the ageing cross- porthladd o’r diwedd drwy inni channel ferry will finally reach a port by our gymeradwyo’r cytundeb cyfandaliad fel y approving the lump-sum agreement so that gall yr adeilad fynd rhagddo yr haf hwn a bod the building can proceed this summer ready yn barod i’w feddiannu yn haf 2005. for occupation in the summer of 2005.

There is an exception to the cross-party Mae eithriad i’r gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol, sef support, which is the Conservative and y Blaid Geidwadol ac Unoliaethol. Yr Unionist Party. I had hoped that your party oeddwn wedi gobeithio y byddai’ch plaid yn would have a change of mind, Nick. newid ei meddwl, Nick. Fodd bynnag, gwelaf However, I see from the amendments that yn ôl y gwelliannau nad felly y mae. Mae that is not the case. The Conservatives have a datganoli’n peri anhawster i’r Ceidwadwyr. problem with devolution. The Conservative Mae’r Aelodau Ceidwadol yn cymryd eu Members take their seats and enjoy their seddau ac yn mwynhau eu cyflogau a’u salaries and privileges, but, in their hearts, breintiau ond, yn eu calonnau, dymunant they want to appeal to all those who are still apelio i bawb sy’n dal i wadu datganoli. in denial about devolution. They oppose Gwrthwynebant gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, ac proportional representation, yet 10 of the 11 eto mae 10 o’r 11 Aelod Ceidwadol yn cael Conservative Members draw their salaries eu cyflog o’i herwydd—gan gynnwys eu because of it—including their leader. harweinydd. Yn yr un modd, yn achos y Similarly, with the new Chamber, they are Siambr newydd, maent yn ceisio manteisio ar trying to cash in on any evanescent unrhyw boblogrwydd byrhoedlog y gallant ei popularity that they can, but, once the sicrhau ond, wedi agor y Siambr, yr wyf yn Chamber is open, I am sure that they will siŵr y byddant yn falch o gymryd eu seddau gladly take their seats in it and take visiting ynddi a dechrau ei dangos i grwpiau ysgol schools parties around it as well. We say to sy’n ymweld hefyd. Dywedwn wrth y the Conservatives that denial is not just a big Ceidwadwyr fod eu hymwadiad yn amlwg river in Egypt; it drenches the Conservative ym mhob mater sy’n gysylltiedig â datganoli. Party on any matter relating to devolution.

We have been looking for four things from Buom yn ceisio pedwar peth yn y contract this contract. One is cost certainty: it is a hwn. Un ohonynt yw sicrwydd o ran costau: lump-sum contract. The second is a flagship contract cyfandaliad ydyw. Yr ail yw adeilad building. The third is a building with green sy’n nodedig. Y trydydd yw adeilad ag iddo credentials. The fourth is a showcase for nodweddion gwyrdd. Y pedwerydd yw man Welsh building materials and skills. It has arddangos i ddefnyddiau adeiladu a sgiliau been difficult to obtain these. A landmark Cymru. Bu’n anodd sicrhau’r rhain. Nid building is not a standard building like a adeilad arferol fel archfarchnad neu ysgol supermarket or a primary school. It is a gynradd yw adeilad nodedig. Adeilad unique building, and obtaining individuality unigryw ydyw, ac anodd yw sicrhau along with cost certainty is difficult for unigoliaeth ochr yn ochr â sicrwydd o ran flagship buildings. The new Assembly cost yn achos adeiladau nodedig. Efallai nad Chamber may only exist as foundations and a yw Siambr newydd y Cynulliad ond yn design today, but it has a long and complex bodoli ar ffurf sylfeini a chynllun heddiw, history, as Leanne mentioned. There was the ond mae iddi hanes hir a chymhleth, fel y design competition in 1998, the project nododd Leanne. Cafwyd y gystadleuaeth review in 2000, and a project suspension in dylunio yn 1998, adolygwyd y prosiect yn 2001 when we sought to break away from the 2000, ac ataliwyd y prosiect yn 2001 pan fu management contractor system with which inni geisio cefnu ar y system contractwr the Scots have proceeded. We stopped that rheoli y mae’r Albanwyr wedi’i defnyddio. because, when the superstructure packages Rhoesom y gorau i hynny oherwydd, pan started coming in, the costs were far higher ddechreuodd pecynnau’r goruwchadeilad than the original estimates. The design in ddod i law, yr oedd y costau’n uwch o lawer 2001 was, essentially, undercooked. The only na’r amcangyfrifon gwreiddiol. Yn y bôn, nid advantage of the management contractor oedd y dyluniad yn 2001 wedi’i baratoi’n

72 01/07/2003 system over the lump-sum system is that it ddigonol. Yr unig fantais yn y system should enable you to proceed more quickly— contractwr rheoli o’i chymharu â’r system although the Scots have not found that to be cyfandaliad yw y dylai eich galluogi i symud the case—and that was the reason for it: we ymlaen yn gynt—er nad dyna a ganfu’r were trying to open the building by 2003. Albanwyr—a dyna oedd y rheswm am That was not possible. The Permanent hynny: yr oeddem yn ceisio agor yr adeilad Secretary has made clear his view that the erbyn 2003. Ni fu modd gwneud hynny. original cost for the design of £8 million or Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Parhaol wedi egluro ei £10 million was never realistic. farn na fu’r gost wreiddiol ar gyfer y dyluniad o £8 miliwn neu £10 miliwn erioed yn un realistig.

Today, for the first time, we have a fixed Heddiw, am y tro cyntaf, mae gennym lump-sum contract. If you approve the gontract cyfandaliad penodol. Os motion today, the cost will not change. cymeradwywch y cynnig heddiw, ni fydd y Provided that the client does not change the gost yn newid. Ar yr amod nad yw’r cleient specifications, the contractor will not change yn newid y manylebau, ni fydd y contractwr the price and will bear any cost overruns. We yn newid y pris a bydd yn dwyn unrhyw have been ably assisted in arriving at this gostau sy’n gor-redeg. Cawsom gymorth point by the TPS Schal project management medrus i gyrraedd y pwynt hwn gan dîm team, acting on our behalf. We identified a rheoli prosiect TPS Schal a oedd yn preferred bidder in Taylor Woodrow, and the gweithredu ar ein rhan. Yr adeiladwr a Assembly and TPS Schal have been working benodwyd gennym oedd Taylor Woodrow, ac in partnership with it since January to mae’r Cynulliad a TPS Schal yn gweithio complete the design detail, the construction mewn partneriaeth ag ef ers Ionawr i strategy and the supply option, so that Taylor gwblhau manylion y dyluniad, y strategaeth Woodrow could offer a lump-sum contract to adeiladu a’r dewis o gyflenwadau, fel y gallai construct the building according to Taylor Woodrow gynnig contract cyfandaliad specification for a shade under £41 million. If i godi’r adeilad yn unol â’r fanyleb am we do not vary the specification, Taylor ychydig llai na £41 miliwn. Os na wnawn ni Woodrow will not vary the price. That is also newid y fanyleb, ni wnaiff Taylor Woodrow the basis on which Sir Robert McAlpine Ltd newid y pris. Ar y sail honno y mae Syr is building the Wales Millennium Centre next Robert McAlpine Cyf yn codi Canolfan door and the basis on which the Millennium Mileniwm Cymru y drws nesaf ac ar y sail Stadium was built three or four years ago honno y codwyd Stadiwm y Mileniwm dair ready for the 1999 rugby world cup. Far more neu bedair blynedd yn ôl yn barod ar gyfer companies were willing to engage in fixed- cwpan rygbi’r byd yn 1999. Yr oedd llawer price contracts then. Now, possibly because mwy o gwmnïau’n barod i ymgymryd â John Laing plc lost so much money on the chontractau am bris penodol y pryd hynny. cost overrun on the Millennium Stadium, if Yn awr, am fod John Laing ccc wedi colli you mention ‘fixed-price’, ‘Cardiff’, and a cymaint o arian oherwydd y gor-redeg ar big public building in the same sentence, gostau ar Stadiwm y Mileniwm o bosibl, os fewer contractors will come forward. rhowch ‘pris penodol’, ‘Caerdydd’, ac Luckily, however, Taylor Woodow is willing adeilad cyhoeddus mawr gyda’i gilydd yn yr to take on the project in conjunction with the un frawddeg, daw llai o gontractwyr ymlaen. other partners in the consortium that has Yn ffodus, fodd bynnag, mae Taylor offered the £41 million contract. I commend Woodow yn barod i ymgymryd â’r prosiect the motion to the Assembly and stress that, ar y cyd â’r partneriaid eraill yn y for the first time, we will have cost certainty. consortiwm sydd wedi cynnig y contract I ask you to compare what we have achieved gwerth £41 miliwn. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig in gaining that cost certainty with what has i’r Cynulliad a phwysleisiaf y cawn sicrwydd happened with other public procurement o ran costau, am y tro cyntaf. Gofynnaf ichi exercises such as that for the Scottish gymharu’r hyn a gyflawnasom wrth gael y Parliament building, the costs of which sicrwydd hwnnw o ran costau â’r hyn a continue to escalate in the absence of the cost ddigwyddodd yn achos ymarferion caffael

73 01/07/2003 control that we will now have. cyhoeddus eraill fel yr un ar gyfer adeilad Senedd yr Alban, y mae’r costau ar ei gyfer yn dal i godi yn niffyg y rheolaeth ar gostau a gawn ni’n awr.

The new building has been fully appraised Mae’r adeilad newydd wedi’i werthuso’n and amended to meet the additional safety drylwyr a’i addasu i fodloni’r gofynion requirements that are sadly needed in the first diogelwch ychwanegol sydd eu hangen, decade of the twenty-first century, post 11 gwaetha’r modd, yn negawd cyntaf yr unfed September. Achieving those safety standards ganrif ar hugain, yn sgîl 11 Medi. has added approximately £5 million to the Ychwanegwyd tua £5 miliwn at gost yr cost of the building, but it is a sad fact of adeilad er mwyn bodloni’r safonau twenty-first century life that they are needed. diogelwch hynny, sy’n angenrheidiol, There has been speculation as to the extent to gwaetha’r modd, yn y byd sydd ohoni. Bu which VAT is being charged on the building. dyfalu ynghylch maint y TAW a godir ar yr That cost is not part of the contract with adeilad. Nid yw’r gost honno’n rhan o’r Taylor Woodrow, but is, as far as we are contract â Taylor Woodrow, ond mae’n rhaid aware, payable. ei thalu, hyd y gwyddom ni.

I am particularly pleased that, although we Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch, er na allwn fynnu cannot specify that materials be sourced from y ceir defnyddiau o ffynonellau yng Wales because of EU procurement Nghymru oherwydd canllawiau caffael yr guidelines, Taylor Woodrow, in working out UE, fod Taylor Woodrow, wrth gyfrifo ei its costing, has been able to identify Welsh brisiau, wedi gallu dod o hyd i rai yng suppliers for the flooring slate and steel Nghymru i gyflenwi llechi’r llawr a fabrication and for Welsh oak for the desks. ffabrigiadau dur a choed derw o Gymru ar It believes that over 50 per cent of the gyfer y desgiau. Cred y bydd mwy na 50 y building’s prime cost materials will come cant o ddefnyddiau drutaf yr adeilad yn dod o from Welsh sources and that a significant ffynonellau yng Nghymru ac y daw canran percentage of the labour will come from sylweddol o’r llafurwyr o Gymru. Deallwn y Wales. Overall, we understand that the gallai’r prosiect arwain at fuddsoddi tua £15 project could lead to some £15 million being miliwn, at ei gilydd, mewn diwydiant yng invested in Welsh industry and Welsh Nghymru ac mewn cyflogaeth yng Nghymru employment in the construction industry. yn y diwydiant adeiladu. Felly, bydd yr Therefore, the building will be a showcase adeilad yn fan arddangos i ddiwydiant for the Welsh building industry and Welsh adeiladu Cymru a chynhyrchion adeiladu building products. More details on that will Cymru. Rhoddir rhagor o fanylion am hynny be supplied later this week. yn ddiweddarach yr wythnos hon.

I am enthusiastic about the innovations that Yr wyf yn frwdfrydig ynghylch y add to this building’s sustainability. Heating datblygiadau newydd sy’n gwneud yr adeilad and ventilation costs are estimated to be hwn yn fwy cynaliadwy. Amcangyfrifir y between 30 and 50 per cent of those of more bydd y costau gwresogi ac awyru rhwng 30 a conventional buildings. Bore holes have been 50 y cant o’r rhai a geir mewn adeiladau drilled 180m into the earth’s surface and tap mwy confensiynol. Turiwyd tyllau 180 medr into the constant temperatures at that level. o ddyfnder i wyneb y ddaear ac maent yn Heat will also be produced from waste by- tynnu’r gwres cyson a geir ar y lefel honno. products of the furniture industry in the Cynhyrchir gwres hefyd o isgynhyrchion Bridgend area, which would otherwise be put gwastraff y diwydiant dodrefn yn ardal Pen- into landfill, or, possibly, from woodchips y-bont ar Ogwr, a roddir mewn safleoedd made from the 850 tonnes of waste timber tirlenwi fel arall, neu, efallai, o ysglodion a that float down the Taff and Ely rivers into wneir o’r 850 tunnell fetrig o goed gwastraff the waters of Cardiff bay. That will sy’n nofio i lawr afonydd Taf ac Elái i contribute to the lean, clean, green image of ddyfroedd bae Caerdydd. Bydd hynny’n Wales. cyfrannu at y ddelwedd iach, glân a gwyrdd

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sydd gan Gymru.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I am sure that we all Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Yr wyf yn siŵr ein welcome the commitment to use local bod ni oll yn croesawu’r ymrwymiad i products and companies, but I bring you back ddefnyddio cynhyrchion a chwmnïau lleol, to the question of cost. We still have not ond deuaf â chi’n ôl at gwestiwn y gost. Nid received a reply to Leanne Wood’s question ydym wedi cael ateb o hyd i gwestiwn as to the cost of the delay. You may or may Leanne Wood am gost yr oedi. Efallai y not recall that I questioned you about that cofiwch imi eich holi am hynny pan when you made your original decision to wnaethoch eich penderfyniad gwreiddiol i delay the project. I asked you specifically ohirio’r prosiect. Gofynnais ichi’n benodol a whether you had considered how much it oeddech wedi ystyried pa faint a gostiai i would cost to delay this project. Can you give ohirio’r prosiect hwn. A allwch roi ffigur i ni, us a figure, because it is nowhere to be seen? oherwydd ni ellir ei weld yn unman? Beth How much did your failure to reach a oedd cost eich methiant i benderfynu? decision cost? You decided to delay this Penderfynasoch ohirio’r prosiect hwn; beth project; what is the additional cost of that? yw’r gost ychwanegol oherwydd hynny?

The First Minister: I am not in a position to Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i give a figure for that. You only have to allu rhoi ffigur am hynny. Nid oes ond rhaid consider what would have happened had we ichi ystyried beth a ddigwyddasai pe byddem proceeded along the route taken by the wedi dilyn yr un llwybr â Senedd yr Alban. Scottish Parliament. Its project started at a Dechreuodd ei phrosiect ar gost o £40 miliwn cost of £40 million and now stands at £375 ac mae bellach yn £375 miliwn am ei bod million because it has used the management wedi defnyddio dull y contractwr rheoli. Yr contractor method. We have switched to a ydym ni wedi troi at ddull pris penodol, gan fixed-price method, thereby transferring the drosglwyddo’r risg o or-redeg ar gostau i’r risk of cost overruns to the contractor. You contractwr. Mae’n bosibl y telir rhagor may pay slightly more up-front to do that, but ymlaen llaw i wneud hynny, ond bydd any cost overruns are at the risk of the unrhyw or-redeg ar gostau ar fenter y contractor, provided that the client does not contractwr, ar yr amod nad yw’r cleient yn change the specifications. newid y manylebau.

4.40 p.m.

Yn olaf, golyga’r system twymo ac oeri y Finally, the heating and ventilation system cawn adeilad craff. Bydd yr adeilad bach, means that we will have an intelligent clyfar hwn yn symbol o’n cenedl fach, glyfar building. This small, clever building will be a a’i dyfodol. Drwy gyd-ddigwyddiad sydd symbol of our small, clever nation and its bron â bod yn wyrthiol, bydd yr adeilad yn future. By an almost miraculous coincidence, agor yn ystod dathliadau hanner the building will be opened during the fiftieth canmlwyddiant Caerdydd yn brifddinas anniversary celebrations of Cardiff as Cymru. Wales’s capital city.

Today, just for once, I have the pleasure of Heddiw, am unwaith, pleser imi yw gofyn i asking Members to do exactly what Nick Aelodau wneud yn union fel y gofynnodd Bourne asked us to do the last time that we Nick Bourne inni ei wneud pan drafodasom y discussed this issue, on 29 January, when he mater hwn ddiwethaf, ar 29 Ionawr, pan said: ddywedodd:

‘if you are going to build it, build it.’ ‘os ydych yn mynd i’w godi, codwch yr adeilad.’

Thank you, Nick. We will follow your words Diolch i chi, Nick. Gwnawn ddilyn eich today. I recommend that Members oppose all geiriau heddiw. Argymhellaf y dylai Aelodau

75 01/07/2003 amendments and support the motion. wrthwynebu’r holl welliannau a chefnogi’r cynnig.

The Presiding Officer: Before I call the Y Llywydd: Cyn imi alw arweinydd leader of the Welsh Conservatives, I Ceidwadwyr Cymru, cyhoeddaf derfyn amser announce a time limit on speeches, under ar areithiau, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.3. Standing Order No. 7.3. The leader of the Caiff arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru bum Welsh Conservatives will have five minutes munud i siarad ac i gynnig ei welliannau; to speak and to move his amendments; all cyfyngir pob araith arall i dri munud, heblaw other speeches will be limited to three am un y Gweinidog Cyllid wrth gloi. minutes, save for the Finance Minister when she winds up.

Nick Bourne: I propose the following Nick Bourne: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau amendments in the name of Jonathan canlynol yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Morgan. Amendment 1: replace Gwelliant 1: rhoi ‘£1’ yn lle ‘£40,997,000.00’ with ‘£1’. ‘£40,997,000.00’.

I propose amendment 2. Add a new point at Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ychwanegu pwynt the end of the motion: newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig: recognises that the new additional Assembly yn cydnabod bod prosiect newydd building project is contrary to the wishes of ychwanegol adeilad y Cynulliad yn groes i the majority of the people of Wales. ddymuniadau mwyafrif pobl Cymru.

I propose amendment 3. Add a new point at Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu pwynt the end of the motion: newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig: condemns the failure of the Assembly yn condemnio’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y Government to prioritise the delivery of Cynulliad wedi rhoi mwy o flaenoriaeth i public services ahead of the new additional brosiect newydd ychwanegol Adeilad y Assembly building project. Cynulliad nag i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

The First Minister—although I do not believe Mae’r Prif Weinidog—er na chredaf ei fod that he believes it in his heart—accuses my yn credu hynny yn ei galon—yn cyhuddo fy party of being anti-devolution, and then mhlaid i o fod yn erbyn datganoli, ac wedyn proposes this motion by praying in aid what a yn dyfynnu’r hyn a ddywedodd London journalist said about our Chamber on newyddiadurwr o Lundain ar siwrnai a day return from Paddington. That is ddwyffordd o Paddington am ein Siambr ni extraordinary. If you want to pray anybody in i’w ategu. Mae hynny’n rhyfedd. Os ydych aid, First Minister, why not ask the people of am ddyfynnu geiriau rhywun i’ch cefnogi, Wales what they think about this building? I Brif Weinidog, beth am ofyn i bobl Cymru suspect that you know the truth. Although am eu barn hwy am yr adeilad hwn? Yr wyf only one party in the Chamber may be yn amau eich bod yn gwybod y gwir. Er mai against this dreadful waste of money, dim ond un blaid yn y Siambr sy’n hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of gwrthwynebu’r gwastraff arian ofnadwy people in Wales regard it as the most hwn, mae cannoedd o filoedd, os nad monstrous waste of money. miliynau, o bobl yng Nghymru yn ei ystyried yn wastraff gwarthus o arian.

Eleanor Burnham: Why, therefore, did the Eleanor Burnham: Pam, felly, y Tory Party vote for Portcullis House, which pleidleisiodd y Blaid Dorïaidd o blaid codi cost five times as much as this building? Portcullis House, a gostiodd bum gwaith cymaint â’r adeilad hwn?

76 01/07/2003

Nick Bourne: You also need to learn about Nick Bourne: Rhaid i chithau ddysgu am devolution, Eleanor. Why not throw ddatganoli, Eleanor. Pam na thaflwch questions to me about what happens in gwestiynau ataf ynghylch yr hyn sy’n Scotland? The Portcullis House building was digwydd yn yr Alban? Yr oedd adeilad a massive waste of money. However, we are Portcullis House yn wastraff arian ofnadwy. not answerable for what happens in Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn atebol dros yr hyn Westminster, any more than we are sy’n digwydd yn San Steffan, mwy nag yr answerable for what happens in Scotland. ydym yn atebol dros yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn That is why the First Minister, doubtless, yr Alban. Mae’n siŵr mai dyna pam yr oedd wanted to keep drawing analogies with what y Prif Weinidog am ddal i wneud is happening elsewhere. Let us consider what cymariaethau â’r hyn a oedd yn digwydd yn has happened in Wales since this project was rhywle arall. Gadewch inni ystyried yr hyn a first mooted. The First Minister mentioned ddigwyddodd yng Nghymru ers crybwyll y unrealistic talk of £10 million; that was the prosiect hwn am y tro cyntaf. Cyfeiriodd y cost mentioned in the White Paper, ‘A Voice Prif Weinidog at y sôn afrealistig am £10 for Wales’, which launched the devolution miliwn; dyna oedd y gost a grybwyllwyd yn campaign. We said that it was unrealistic y Papur Gwyn, ‘Llais i Gymru’, a lansiodd yr then, and we were told that we were ymgyrch datganoli. Dywedasom ei fod yn scaremongering. The cost is now £55 million, afrealistig bryd hynny, a dywedwyd wrthym which does not include the cost of furniture, ein bod yn codi bwganod. Y gost bellach yw information technology, management time or £55 miliwn, nad yw’n cynnwys cost dodrefn, Crickhowell House. technoleg gwybodaeth, amser rheoli neu Dŷ Crucywel.

The Assembly first voted on the new building Pleidleisiodd y Cynulliad ar brosiect yr project in 2000, when the then First adeilad newydd yn 2000, pan ddywedodd y Secretary, Alun Michael, said: Prif Ysgrifennydd ar y pryd, Alun Michael:

‘Often, with a major public building, nobody Yn aml, ni ŵyr neb am adeilad cyhoeddus knows about it until the finalised design is pwysig hyd nes y dadlennir y dyluniad unveiled with a fanfare of trumpets.’ terfynol yn sain yr utgyrn.

At every painful step of this project, there has Ar bob cam poenus yn y prosiect hwn, ni been no fanfare from the people of Wales. chanwyd yr utgyrn gan bobl Cymru. Aeth Alun Michael went on to say: Alun Michael ymlaen i ddweud:

‘I agree that we should be open and Cytunaf y dylem fod yn agored a thryloyw transparent about all aspects of the building, ynghylch pob agwedd ar yr adeilad, gan including the costs.’ gynnwys y costau.

When the cost was at £23 million, he Pan oedd y gost yn £23 miliwn, cyhoeddodd: announced:

‘we now have full and robust cost estimates.’ mae gennym amcangyfrifon llawn a dibynadwy o’r gost bellach.

Three years later, Rhodri Morgan insists that Dair blynedd yn ddiweddarach, mynn Rhodri there will be no more cost over runs. With Morgan na fydd rhagor o or-redeg ar gostau. this project, it appears that there is no ceiling Yn achos y prosiect hwn, nid ymddengys bod figure; the sky is the limit. We are told that unrhyw ffigur uchaf; nid oes terfyn. Dywedir the cost is £41 million plus VAT, information wrthym mai’r gost yw £41 miliwn ynghyd â technology and furniture. I have heard that a TAW, technoleg gwybodaeth a dodrefn. company sold a desk to the Scottish Clywais fod cwmni wedi gwerthu desg i Parliament for just under £1 million. It is now Senedd yr Alban am ychydig llai nag £1

77 01/07/2003 apparently keen to sell one to Rhodri filiwn. Ymddengys yn awr ei fod yn awyddus Morgan. I imagine, on the basis of how this i werthu un i Rhodri Morgan. Yr wyf yn project has proceeded over the last few years, tybio, yn ôl y modd y mae’r prosiect hwn that its luck will be in. wedi mynd rhagddo dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, y gallai lwyddo.

In February 2002, Edwina Hart said that Lord Yn Chwefror 2002, dywedodd Edwina Hart Rogers had got the cost of the building fod yr Arglwydd Rogers wedi cael cost yr wrong, and that she hoped that the right adeilad yn anghywir, ac y gobeithiai y byddid professionals would be brought in to take yn cael y gweithwyr proffesiynol priodol i over the project. Now, the Richard Rogers gymryd y prosiect drosodd. Bellach, mae Partnership is back on board, and the Partneriaeth Richard Rogers wedi ailymuno, taxpayer has footed the bill for thousands of ac mae’r trethdalwr wedi talu’r bil am filoedd pounds in disputed fees for the building’s o bunnoedd o ffioedd dadleuol am ddylunio’r design. The dithering and mismanagement adeilad. Mae’r gwamalu a’r camreoli sydd that has plagued this Labour Government is wedi plagio’r Llywodraeth Lafur hon wedi’u epitomised by this project. The first real issue hymgorffori yn y prosiect hwn. Y mater that we vote on, two months into the new pwysig cyntaf yr ydym yn pleidleisio arno, Assembly, is the new Assembly building. ddeufis ar ôl dechrau’r Cynulliad newydd, That is not what devolution is about. It is not yw adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Nid dyna what the people of Wales want, as all ystyr datganoli. Nid dyna ddymuniad pobl Members know. The people of Wales are Cymru, fel y gŵyr yr holl Aelodau. Mae pobl talking about the health service, education, Cymru’n sôn am y gwasanaeth iechyd, rural Wales and jobs. They do not want this addysg, Cymru wledig a swyddi. Nid ydynt incredible waste of money. am gael y gwastraff arian anhygoel hwn.

Eleanor Burnham had a point when she Yr oedd Eleanor Burnham yn llygad ei lle warned the Audit Committee in 2001 that the pan rybuddiodd y Pwyllgor Archwilio yn Assembly was in danger of being perceived 2001 fod perygl i’r Cynulliad gael ei weld yn as being in the same position as the yr un sefyllfa â Dôm y Mileniwm. Pryderai y Millennium Dome. She was worried that the byddai’r Cynulliad yn cael ei ystyried yn Assembly would be seen as a huge white eliffant gwyn mawr o gamreolaeth lwyr. Yr elephant of complete mismanagement. She oedd yn iawn, fel y mae yn aml. Bu cynnydd was right, as she often is. The final cost of the o 90 y cant yng nghost y Dôm erbyn y Dome rose by 90 per cent. The costs of diwedd. Mae costau adeiladu’r Siambr building the new Chamber have risen by 400 newydd wedi codi o 400 y cant hyd yn hyn. per cent thus far. As the costs rose, Ron Wrth i’r costau godi, derbyniodd Ron Davies Davies conceded that this was a major fod hyn yn destun cywilydd mawr i’r embarrassment for the National Assembly, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a chytunodd Ieuan and Ieuan Wyn Jones agreed. Neil Kinnock Wyn Jones. Dywedodd Neil Kinnock ei fod said that he wondered whether anyone would yn meddwl tybed a fyddai unrhyw un yn choose the Assembly building as a priority. dewis adeilad y Cynulliad fel blaenoriaeth. Er However, this is the first real issue being hynny, dyma’r mater pwysig cyntaf y voted upon in the second Assembly. The pleidleisir arno yn yr ail Gynulliad. Nid yw’r Government has not tabled a motion on Llywodraeth wedi cyflwyno cynnig ar prescription charges, education, or any other daliadau presgripsiwn, addysg, neu unrhyw issues in its manifesto, but rather a motion on faterion eraill yn ei maniffesto, ond yn the new Assembly building project. No hytrach gynnig ar brosiect adeilad newydd y Assembly session goes by without this issue Cynulliad. Nid aiff yr un sesiwn o’r appearing on the agenda. The First Minister Cynulliad heibio heb i’r mater hwn spoke on the issue as if it was the first time ymddangos ar yr agenda. Siaradodd y Prif that it had appeared on the agenda. He said Weinidog ar y testun hwn fel pe byddai wedi that what had gone wrong had nothing to do ymddangos ar yr agenda am y tro cyntaf. with him and the previous Government. He Dywedodd nad oedd a wnelo ef a’r moved another motion and asked us to vote Llywodraeth flaenorol ddim â’r hyn a aeth o’i

78 01/07/2003 on this issue for the last time. However, we le. Cynigiodd gynnig arall a gofyn inni will be in the Chamber again discussing the bleidleisio ar y mater hwn am y tro olaf. Fodd miserable rise in hospital waiting lists, the bynnag, byddwn yn y Siambr eto’n trafod y problems facing rural Wales, manufacturing cynnydd truenus yn rhestrau aros yr ysbytai, job losses and the need to tackle the ELWa y problemau sy’n wynebu Cymru wledig, scandal. Many Members come to the colli swyddi gweithgynhyrchu a’r angen i Chamber time and again because they believe ymdrin â sgandal ELWa. Daw llawer o in devolution. However, we do not believe in Aelodau i’r Siambr dro ar ôl tro am eu bod yn this incredible waste of money. credu mewn datganoli. Fodd bynnag, ni chredwn yn y gwastraff arian anhygoel hwn.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Bu’r holl drafodaethau Ieuan Wyn Jones: All the discussions on the am adeilad newydd y Cynulliad yn saga new Assembly building have been part of an diangen. Dyma’r nawfed tro i’r Cynulliad unnecessary saga. This is the ninth time that drafod y mater, a’r tro cyntaf inni ei drafod the Assembly has discussed the issue, and the yn yr ail Gynulliad. Bu i’r trafodaethau first time that we have discussed it in the ymddangos yn gwbl ffarsaidd ar brydiau i second Assembly. At times, discussions have bobl Cymru. Rhaid inni gydnabod nad yw appeared totally farcical to the people of bodolaeth y twll yn y ddaear drws nesaf i’r Wales. We must acknowledge that the adeilad hwn wedi helpu pobl i deimlo y bu’r existence of the hole in the ground next to Cynulliad cyntaf yn llwyddiant. Rhaid inni this building has not helped people to feel gydnabod hefyd fod gan bobl Cymru gryn that the first Assembly was a success. We bryderon ynglŷn â’r ffordd yr ymdriniwyd â’r must also recognise that the people of Wales prosiect hwn yn ystod y blynyddoedd have deep concerns about the way in which diwethaf. this project has been handled during the last few years.

Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn However, it is important that we accept the derbyn yr achos o blaid cael adeilad newydd. case in favour of a new building. Although Er y bydd llawer yn dathlu pan gaiff yr many people will celebrate once the new adeilad newydd ei agor, byddaf i yn dathlu building is opened, I will celebrate when the pan gaiff yr adeilad ei droi yn Senedd go building becomes a proper Parliament for the iawn i bobl Cymru. Dyna pam yr ydym eisiau people of Wales. That is why we want a adeilad sy’n dangos Cymru ar ei gorau ac building that shows Wales at its best and sy’n adlewyrchu hyder y genedl. Dyna’r hyn which reflects the nation’s confidence. That y mae pobl Cymru yn dymuno ei gael. Pa is what the people of Wales want. What sefydliad democrataidd arall sydd ag adeliad other democratic institution has a building as mor dila â’r adeilad hwn—tomen o frics coch inadequate as this—a pile of red bricks which sy’n ddim mwy na bloc o swyddfeydd hyll is nothing more than an ugly office block o’r 1960au neu’r 1970au? Dylem gywilyddio from the 1960s or 1970s? We should be bod pobl Cymru yn ein gweld yn perfformio ashamed that the people of Wales see us mewn lle mor dila. Gwariwyd cannoedd o performing in such an inadequate place. filoedd o bunnoedd yn Llundain, gyda Hundreds of thousands of pounds have been chefnogaeth y blaid Dorïaidd, ar swyddfeydd spent in London, with Tory party support, on i Aelodau Seneddol. Fodd, bynnag, ni chred y offices for Members of Parliament. However, Torïaid ei bod yn iawn inni gael Siambr ar the Tories do not believe that it is right for us gyfer pobl Cymru y gallwn ymfalchïo ynddi. to have a Chamber for the people of Wales Dylem ddangos mwy o hunan hyder fel that we can be proud of. We should be more cenedl a sicrhau bod gennym adeilad sy’n self-confident as a nation and ensure that we addas i Gymru yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. have a building that is appropriate for Wales in the twenty-first century.

David Davies: Mae gwahaniaeth mawr David Davies: There is a great difference rhwng yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Portcullis between what occurred at Portcullis House House a’r hyn sy’n digwydd yma. Nid oedd and what is happening here. They did not

79 01/07/2003 ganddynt ddigon o swyddfeydd ar gyfer have sufficient office space for Members of Aelodau Seneddol yn Llundain, a dyna pam Parliament in London, and that is why yr adeiladwyd Portcullis House. Portcullis House was built.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I am sure that David Ieuan Wyn Jones: Yr wyf yn siŵr bod Davies is looking forward to taking his seat David Davies yn edrych ymlaen at gymryd ei in the new Assembly Chamber. He will not sedd yn Siambr newydd y Cynulliad. Ni be left out and will want to sit there like chaiff ei adael y tu allan a bydd am eistedd everyone else. He should be honest about his yno fel pawb arall. Dylai ddweud y gwir am intentions. ei fwriadau.

I have two concerns. We welcome the fact Mae dau beth yn peri pryder i mi. Croesawn that this is a lump-sum contract. However, y ffaith mai contract cyfandaliad yw hwn. Er we want assurances that those concerns— hynny, yr ydym am gael sicrwydd bod y pryderon hynny—

Lisa Francis rose— Lisa Francis a gododd—

The Presiding Officer: Order. The leader of Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid yw arweinydd yr the opposition is not giving way. He only has wrthblaid yn ildio. Dim ond hanner munud half a minute left. sydd ganddo ar ôl.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: We want assurances that Ieuan Wyn Jones: Yr ydym am gael the concerns of the disabled lobby have been sicrwydd bod pryderon y lobi dros bobl anabl taken into account and addressed in relation wedi’u hystyried ac wedi’u hateb mewn to the contract. The second point that I cysylltiad â’r contract. Yr ail bwynt yr wanted to make clear was that we need to oeddwn am ei egluro yw bod rhaid inni gael have certainty on the issue of materials sicrwydd ar fater defnyddiau sy’n dod o coming from Wales and in relation to Welsh Gymru ac mewn cysylltiad â llafur o Gymru. labour.

4.50 p.m.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Dyna ddiwedd eich The Presiding Officer: Order. Your time is amser. up.

Michael German: I suspect that most Michael German: Yr wyf yn amau y bydd y Members will be pleased to see this project rhan fwyaf o Aelodau’n falch o weld contract finalised and the decision finally cwblhau’r contract ar gyfer y prosiect hwn a taken to build our new Assembly building. phenderfyniad terfynol i godi ein hadeilad For the past four years, we have been dogged Cynulliad newydd. Dros y pedair blynedd by a project largely determined before we diwethaf, fe’n plagiwyd gan brosiect a came into existence, and we have struggled to bennwyd i raddau helaeth cyn inni ddod i manage a project that was in great danger of fodolaeth, ac yr ydym wedi’i chael yn anodd running away with cost and uncertainty. We rheoli prosiect a oedd mewn perygl mawr o were offered an unrealistic price at the outset, fynd allan o reolaeth o ran costau ac when this project was handed to the new ansicrwydd. Cynigiwyd pris afrealistig inni ar National Assembly, and we were also handed y cychwyn, pan drosglwyddwyd y prosiect a style of contract that gave us no cost hwn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol newydd, a certainty. We just could not end up, as an rhoddwyd inni hefyd fath o gontract na Assembly, with the runaway-cost form of roddai inni unrhyw sicrwydd o ran costau. contract that the Scottish Parliament seems Fel Cynulliad, ni allem oddef y math o unable to control. The fixed-price, lump-sum gontract â’r costau dilyffethair y mae’n contract solution that we now have is the ymddangos nad yw Senedd yr Alban yn gallu right way to proceed. It gives us certainty of ei reoli. Y contract cyfandaliad, am bris

80 01/07/2003 outcome price and it removes many of the penodol, sydd gennym yn awr yw’r ffordd risks associated with the building project. It ymlaen. Mae’n rhoi sicrwydd inni am y pris also allows Richard Rogers to complete his terfynol ac yn dileu llawer o’r risgiau a oedd building design. ynghlwm wrth y prosiect adeiladu. Mae hefyd yn caniatáu i Richard Rogers gwblhau ei waith o ddylunio’r adeilad.

No-one likes a new public building when it is Nid oes neb yn hoffi adeilad cyhoeddus being developed and built. It is only when it newydd pan yw’n cael ei ddatblygu a’i is complete that it grows in people’s adeiladu. Dim ond ar ôl ei gwblhau y bydd affections. There are plenty of examples of pobl yn dechrau dod i’w hoffi. Mae digon o that: we have one just up the road in the enghreifftiau o hynny: mae gennym ni un nid Millennium Stadium. It attracted fierce nepell oddi yma yn Stadiwm y Mileniwm. opposition and criticism during its planning Enynnai wrthwynebiad a beirniadaeth lem and development, but now it stands as a pan oedd yn cael ei gynllunio a’i ddatblygu, symbol of Wales, providing a stadium known ond mae bellach yn symbol o Gymru, ac yn throughout Britain and the world, putting stadiwm sy’n adnabyddus drwy Brydain a’r both Cardiff and Wales on the map. byd, gan roi Caerdydd a Chymru ar y map.

No-one in their right minds now asks whether Nid oes neb yn ei iawn bwyll yn gofyn yn it was the right decision in the mid-nineteenth awr ai iawn oedd penderfynu ganol y century to rebuild the current Palace of bedwaredd ganrif ar bymtheg ailgodi’r Palas Westminster. Not only has it stood as a Westminster presennol. Yn ogystal â bod yn monument to democracy for all our people, it symbol o ddemocratiaeth i bawb ohonom, has attracted millions of tourists. More than mae wedi denu miliynau o ymwelwyr. Mae half of overseas tourists to the UK go to mwy na hanner y rhai sy’n ymweld â’r DU o London. They see Buckingham Palace and wledydd tramor yn mynd i Lundain. Ânt i the Palace of Westminster and have their weld Palas Buckingham a Phalas photographs taken outside. They do not Westminster a thynnu eu lluniau y tu allan. remember the MP for Monmouth, Benjamin Ni chofiant yr AS dros Fynwy, Benjamin Hall, whose name has been given to the bell Hall, y rhoddwyd ei enw ar y gloch yn y in the clock tower, but they spend their clocdwr, ond gwariant eu harian yn y money in the hotels, restaurants and shops. gwestai, y bwytai a’r siopau. Mae ar Gymru Wales also needs a slice of that action. This angen rhywfaint o’r busnes hwnnw. Prin bod building hardly warrants a visit from an yr adeilad hwn yn teilyngu ymweliad gan American tourist. dwristiaid o America.

David Melding: Will you give way? David Melding: A wnewch ildio?

Michael German: No, I do not have time. Michael German: Na wnaf, nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser.

We need confidence in ourselves and in our Rhaid inni fod â ffydd ynom ni’n hunain ac people. Wales will receive substantial income yn ein pobl. Caiff Cymru incwm sylweddol from this building, as visitors come here from o’r adeilad hwn, gan fod ymwelwyr yn dod the United Kingdom and beyond. We have yma o’r Deyrnas Unedig a’r tu hwnt. Yr proven that with the Millennium Stadium. ydym wedi profi hynny drwy Stadiwm y The new Assembly will grow in the Mileniwm. Bydd pobl Cymru’n dod i hoffi’r affections of the Welsh people, as a symbol Cynulliad newydd fel symbol o genedl gref. of a strong nation. Sometimes, you need to Weithiau, rhaid ichi godi’ch golygon lift your eyes beyond the rough pathways uwchlaw’r llwybrau garw yr ydych yn teithio along which you travel and have the vision ar eu hyd a meddu ar y weledigaeth a’r and imagination to plan for the future. Today dychymyg i gynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol. is the time for that ambition. Daeth yn bryd arddel yr uchelgais hwnnw.

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Most tourists do not enter the Palace of Nid yw’r rhan fwyaf o dwristiaid yn mynd i Westminster, because it is not the most mewn i Balas Westminster, gan nad yw’n lle inviting place. That is in stark contrast to the arbennig o groesawgar. Mae’n gwbl wahanol openness of our proposed new building. You i natur agored ein hadeilad newydd will be able to see right through from the arfaethedig ni. Byddwch yn gallu gweld front to the back of the building, and it will drwyddo o ffrynt yr adeilad i’r cefn, a bydd be as open to the public as it possibly can be mor agored i’r cyhoedd ag y gall fod wrth in line with the constraints of security advice. gydymffurfio â’r cyngor ar ddiogelwch.

However, there is an issue for the future that Fodd bynnag, mae un mater ar gyfer y Members must address, namely how open we dyfodol y bydd yn rhaid i Aelodau roi sylw are in running our building. Its architecture iddo, sef pa mor agored yr ydym wrth redeg designed it to be open, inviting and, above ein hadeilad. Drwy ei bensaernïaeth, bwriedir all, a demonstration of democracy. Let us not iddo fod yn lle agored a chroesawgar ac, yn blot that aspiration by closing ourselves off fwy na dim, yn lle sy’n dangos democratiaeth from the press and the public. In this ar waith. Gadewch inni beidio â rhwystro’r building, the public and the media have open dyhead hwnnw drwy ein cau ein hunain oddi access to Members in the neuadd. The House wrth y wasg a’r cyhoedd. Yn yr adeilad hwn, Committee will decide on whether or not to caiff y cyhoedd a’r cyfryngau weld Aelodau stick to this important principle in the next yn y neuadd yn ddirwystr. Bydd Pwyllgor y few months. Access by privilege should be Tŷ yn penderfynu a fydd yn dal at yr kept to a minimum. Surely that is what our egwyddor bwysig hon yn y misoedd nesaf. open building should be about. As we take Dylid cael y lleiaf posibl o fynediad ar sail this final decision, remember that this is an braint. Siawns nad hynny yw pwrpas ein enduring building, which will stand as a hadeilad agored. Wrth inni wneud y symbol for our nation. It is the right decision penderfyniad terfynol hwn, cofiwch mai for Wales. adeilad ar gyfer yr oesoedd i ddod yw hwn, ac y bydd yn symbol o’n cenedl. Dyma’r penderfyniad iawn i Gymru.

Peter Law: Most of the people that I Peter Law: Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r bobl a represent are in deprived situations, mainly gynrychiolaf yn ddifreintiedig, yn bennaf because of the effect of the Conservative oherwydd effaith y blynyddoedd o years of government—and I remind the lywodraeth y Ceidwadwyr—yr wyf yn Conservatives of that today. However, I atgoffa’r Ceidwadwyr am hynny heddiw. Er cannot support this development because hynny, ni allaf gefnogi’r datblygiad hwn am spending £55 million on building a palace of mai annerbyniol yw gwario £55 miliwn ar vanity is unacceptable. It is not where we sit godi palas i borthi balchder. Nid lle but what we do for the people that counts. eisteddwn sy’n cyfrif ond yr hyn a wnawn Members should remember that, and should dros y bobl. Dylai Aelodau gofio hynny, a reflect on their constituency backgrounds. dylent ystyried eu hetholaethau.

I have studied my constituency. I have seen Yr wyf wedi astudio fy etholaeth. Yr wyf people living in their rows of houses, and wedi gweld pobl yn byw yn eu rhesi o dai, ac have seen houses boarded up with no money wedi gweld tai â’u ffenestri dan goed a dim to knock them down. I have seen houses in arian i’w dymchwel. Yr wyf wedi gweld tai y need of repairs. I have spoken with people in mae angen eu hatgyweirio. Yr wyf wedi need of operations, who must wait or must siarad â phobl y mae arnynt angen travel to England for treatment, as we cannot llawdriniaeth, sy’n gorfod disgwyl neu fynd i provide it here. I have talked to people about Loegr i gael eu trin, gan na allwn ddarparu ar all of these things, and there is no appetite to eu cyfer yma. Yr wyf wedi siarad â phobl am support this development. Where is the yr holl bethau hynny, ac nid oes unrhyw common mandate? When you have a survey awydd i gefnogi’r datblygiad hwn. Ym mhle telling you that 75 people sleep rough on the y mae’r mandad cyhoeddus? Pan fo arolwg streets of Swansea—and a few half a mile or sy’n dweud wrthych bod 75 o bobl yn cysgu

82 01/07/2003 so from here— allan ar strydoedd Abertawe—a rhai ryw hanner milltir oddi yma—

Eleanor Burnham: Will you give way? Eleanor Burnham: A wnewch ildio?

Peter Law: I will not give way, as I only Peter Law: Nid ildiaf, gan mai dim ond tri have three minutes in which to speak. We munud sydd gennyf i siarad. Rhaid inni must consider the priorities. ystyried y blaenoriaethau.

Eleanor Burnham rose— Eleanor Burnham a gododd—

The Presiding Officer: Order. Peter Law is Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid yw Peter Law yn not giving way; he seems to be in full stride. ildio; ymddengys ei fod yn dod i’w gamre.

Peter Law: Everyone has expectations of the Peter Law: Mae pawb yn disgwyl pethau Assembly and, to date, we have not fully met gan y Cynulliad a, hyd yn hyn, nid ydym those expectations. A sum of £55 million wedi cwrdd â’r disgwyliadau hynny’n llawn. would go a long way. We could divide it, Byddai swm o £55 miliwn yn gyfraniad with every local authority receiving £2.5 mawr at hynny. Gallem ei rannu, fel bod pob million to target social deprivation. awdurdod lleol yn derbyn £2.5 miliwn i dargedu amddifadedd cymdeithasol.

Eleanor Burnham: Will you give way? Eleanor Burnham: A wnewch ildio?

The Presiding Officer: Order. Peter Law is Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid yw Peter Law yn not giving way. ildio.

Peter Law: We could establish a fund, to Peter Law: Gallem sefydlu cronfa, y gallai which people could apply for money to pobl ymgeisio am arian ohoni i hybu eu enhance their communities and improve their cymunedau a gwella ansawdd eu bywyd. quality of life. We could do that with £55 Gallem wneud hynny â £55 miliwn. Pa million. Where is the social justice in gyfiawnder cymdeithasol sydd mewn building a new Assembly Chamber? People adeiladu Siambr newydd i’r Cynulliad? say that it will be an icon. I doubt that; it will Dywed rhai y bydd yn eicon. Yr wyf yn amau be a bauble of self-indulgence for Assembly hynny; bydd yn degan hunanfaldodus i Members. The people of Wales have asked Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Mae pobl Cymru wedi for help and have, for some time, expected us gofyn am gymorth ac yn disgwyl, ers cryn to deliver. They expect their lives to be amser, inni fynd â’r maen i’r wal. changed. They do not want to see money Disgwyliant i’w bywydau gael eu newid. Nid squandered as is being suggested today. ydynt am weld gwastraffu arian fel yr Having looked around my constituency, I awgrymir ei wneud heddiw. Ar ôl mynd o cannot justify voting in favour of the motion gwmpas fy etholaeth, ni allaf gyfiawnhau and supporting the expenditure. Many people pleidleisio o blaid y cynnig a chefnogi’r view it as a narcissistic extravaganza. We gwariant. Mae pobl yn ei ystyried yn wastraff have much to do for the people whom we narsisaidd. Mae gennym lawer i’w wneud represent. Many people look to us to improve dros y bobl a gynrychiolwn. Mae llawer o their lives. If you do not believe me, come to bobl yn disgwyl inni wella eu bywyd. Os na stand in the square in Brynmawr or the Circle chredwch hynny, dewch i sefyll yn y sgwâr in Tredegar, come to Abertillery or Ebbw ym Mrynmawr neu yn y Cylch yn Nhredegar, Vale to see what I see every day and to talk dewch i Abertyleri neu Lynebwy i weld yr to the people. I could almost say that I was hyn a welaf fi bob diwrnod ac i siarad â’r re-elected on a mandate to oppose the new bobl. Gallwn bron â dweud imi gael fy building, as people feel so strongly about ailethol ar fandad i wrthwynebu’r adeilad money being poured into such developments newydd, gan fod pobl yn teimlo mor gryf am while social deprivation is ignored. That is arllwys arian i ddatblygiadau o’r fath tra

83 01/07/2003 why I cannot support the new building, and anwybyddir amddifadedd cymdeithasol. why I will not vote in favour of the motion. Dyna pam na allaf gefnogi’r adeilad newydd, a pham na phleidleisiaf o blaid y cynnig.

Elin Jones: Siaradaf o blaid y cynnig i Elin Jones: I speak in favour of the motion awdurdodi’r gwariant ar adeilad newydd y to authorise the expenditure on the new Cynulliad. Nid oherwydd fy mod am eistedd Assembly building. I do not do so because I mewn adeilad mwy cyfforddus â system want to sit in a more comfortable building awyru effeithiol a dim pileri y gwnaf hynny; with an effective air-conditioning system and siaradaf o blaid yr adeilad oherwydd y bydd no pillars; I speak in favour of the building yn fuddsoddiad tymor hir ar gyfer y 100 because it will be a long-term investment for mlynedd nesaf a thu hwnt, ac oherwydd y the next 100 years and beyond, and because it bydd yn gydnabyddiaeth weledol sylweddol will provide a significant visual symbol of o ddemocratiaeth Cymru. Bydd yn symbol Wales’s democracy. It will be a symbol that fod Cymru’n bodoli fel cenedl. Mae gan ein Wales exists as a nation. Our national rugby timau rygbi a phêl-droed cenedlaethol gartref and football teams have a worthy, world- anrhydeddus, byd-enwog a bydd gan Gwmni renowned home and the Welsh National Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru ac eraill gartref Opera and others will soon have a worthy anrhydeddus yng Nghanolfan Mileniwm home in the Wales Millennium Centre. Since Cymru cyn bo hir. Er 1999, mae Cymru’n 1999, Wales exists as a recognised bodoli fel gwlad gyfansoddiadol constitutional nation, and the nation deserves gydnabyddedig, ac mae’r genedl yn haeddu a permanent home for its elected cartref parhaol i’w chynrychiolwyr representatives—the current representatives etholedig—rhai heddiw a rhai’r dyfodol. and those in the future. The Assembly, in due Bydd y Cynulliad, maes o law, yn senedd a course, will become a parliament and we are phleidleisiwn heddiw o blaid adeiladu voting today in favour of constructing a senedd-dy ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae’r Torïaid parliament building for the future. The Tories yn gwybod hynny, a dyna sydd wrth wraidd know that, and that is the basis of their eu gwrthwynebiad i’r adeilad. Llugoer yw eu opposition to the building. They are only cefnogaeth i gydnabod statws y genedl lukewarm in their support of recognising the Gymreig. status of the Welsh nation.

Lisa Francis: A wnewch ildio? Lisa Francis: Will you give away?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid ymddengys fod Elin The Presiding Officer: Order. It does not Jones yn ildio. appear that Elin Jones is giving way.

Elin Jones: Mae’r adeilad yn flaengar o ran Elin Jones: The building is innovative in defnydd ynni, o ran yr amgylchedd, o ran y terms of energy use, in environmental terms, defnydd o ddeunyddiau Cymreig ac o ran in the use of Welsh materials and in terms of tryloywder a mynediad i’r cyhoedd. Dylem transparency and public access. We should be fod yn wirioneddol falch ohono a dylem ei truly proud of it, and we should support it. As gefnogi. Wrth imi bleidleisio o blaid adeiladu I vote in favour of a parliament building for senedd-dy i Gymru, yr wyf yn ymwybodol fy Wales, I am aware that I am voting to mod yn pleidleisio i sefydlu adeilad ar gyfer establish a building for Ceredigion’s cynrychiolwyr Ceredigion yn 2005, 2055 a representatives in 2005, 2055 and 2105, a 2105, adeilad lle y gallant gynrychioli building where they can represent the buddiannau pobl Ceredigion mewn senedd interests of the people of Ceredigion in a genedlaethol ddemocrataidd. Pleidlais i’r national democratic parliament. This is a vote dyfodol yw hon, ac mae’n drueni bod un for the future, and it is a shame that one grŵp gwleidyddol yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i political group gives priority to self-serving, fanteision pleidiol hunanol a thymor byr. Yr short-term party political gains. I am pleased wyf yn falch y bydd mwyafrif Aelodau’r that the majority of Assembly Members will Cynulliad yn dangos tipyn o hyder yn statws show a little faith in Wales’s status and its a haeddiant Cymru. merit.

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Glyn Davies: It seems almost certain that, Glyn Davies: Ymddengys bron yn sicr y later today, the National Assembly for Wales bydd Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn will commit a large sum of money towards ddiweddarach heddiw, yn rhoi swm mawr o the construction of a new debating chamber. arian tuag at godi siambr ddadlau newydd. It is difficult to be certain of the cost, but it Anodd yw bod yn sicr o’r gost, ond seems that it will be in the region of £60 ymddengys y bydd tua £60 miliwn. O’r hyn a million. From what I have seen, I expect the welais, disgwyliaf y bydd yr adeilad newydd new building to provide a more prestigious yn cynnig llwyfan mwy mawreddog ar gyfer floor for debate than the current Chamber, dadlau na’r Siambr bresennol, ond ar ba gost? but at what cost? I have always accepted that Yr wyf yn derbyn erioed bod dwy ochr i’r there are two sides to this debate. I accept ddadl hon. Derbyniaf nad yw’r Siambr hon that this Chamber is no more than adequate. I yn fawr gwell na bod yn ddigonol. Yr wyf have, in the past, conceded that, should the wedi derbyn, yn y gorffennol, pe byddai National Assembly for Wales have chalked Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wedi ennill up a series of successes to its name, won the clod am gyfres o lwyddiannau, wedi ennyn respect and affection of the Welsh people and parch a hoffter pobl Cymru ac wedi ennill eu won their support for this project, the case for cefnogaeth i’r prosiect hwn, y byddai’r ddadl building a new debating chamber would be dros godi siambr ddadlau newydd yn gryfach. stronger. However, none of this has happened Fodd bynnag, nid oes dim o hynny wedi and we should invest the millions of pounds digwydd a dylem fuddsoddi’r miliynau o in public services. bunnoedd mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

5.00 p.m.

The Government has made a horlicks of this Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi gwneud traed moch project from the start. The First Minister, o’r prosiect hwn ers y cychwyn. Y Prif Rhodri Morgan, is the main culprit. His first Weinidog, Rhodri Morgan, sy’n bennaf act after taking over from Alun Michael was cyfrifol am hynny. Ei weithred gyntaf ar ôl to suspend the project in order to avoid cymryd lle Alun Michael oedd atal y prosiect signing a cheque. That act of dithering cost er mwyn peidio â llofnodi siec. Mae’r Welsh taxpayers about £386,000. The First gwamalu hwnnw wedi costio tua £386,000 i Minister then promoted the idea of a drethdalwyr Cymru. Ar ôl hynny, ludicrous compromise building, which made hyrwyddodd y Prif Weinidog y syniad o Wales a laughing stock throughout Britain. adeilad a fyddai’n gyfaddawd chwerthinllyd, When the project restarted, he tried to pretend a wnaeth Gymru’n destun sbort ledled that he still was not in favour of the new Prydain. Pan ailgychwynnodd y prosiect, building, because he had correctly judged ceisiodd gymryd arno o hyd nad oedd o blaid that the lads in the pub did not support it, thus yr adeilad newydd, am ei fod wedi barnu’n leaving Edwina Hart dangling in mid air to gywir nad oedd y bechgyn yn y darfarn yn ei carry the can. Not surprisingly, Edwina Hart gefnogi, gan adael Edwina Hart heb droed i decided that she would not cop the wrath of sefyll arni i gymryd y bai. Nid yw’n syndod i the nation on her own, and so she sacked Edwina Hart benderfynu na wnâi ddioddef Richard Rogers and suspended the building digofaint y genedl ar ei phen ei hun, ac felly project again. The First Minister then decided diswyddodd Richard Rogers ac atal y prosiect that his Government should behave like an adeiladu eto. Penderfynodd y Prif Weinidog Arthur Daley-type outfit by refusing to pay wedyn y dylai ei Lywodraeth ymddwyn yn the architects’ bill. More hundreds of null Arthur Daley drwy wrthod talu bil y thousands of pounds disappeared in legal penseiri. Diflannodd cannoedd o filoedd o costs when a court ordered the Government bunnoedd ychwanegol ar ffurf costau of Wales to pay up. cyfreithiol pan wnaeth llys orchymyn i Lywodraeth Cymru dalu.

We are where we are today—the Assembly Dyna lle’r ydym heddiw—mae etholiadau’r elections are safely out of the way, and Lord Cynulliad o’r ffordd yn ddiogel, ac mae’r

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Rogers is back in charge of the project. prosiect dan ofal yr Arglwydd Rogers eto. Whatever the total bill, the real scandal is that Beth bynnag fydd cyfanswm y bil, y wir a significant proportion of the cost—millions sgandal yw bod cyfran sylweddol o’r gost— of pounds of Welsh taxpayers’ money—has miliynau o bunnoedd o arian trethdalwyr been frittered away as a direct result of the Cymru—wedi’i gwastraffu o ganlyniad behaviour of an Assembly Government uniongyrchol i ymddygiad arweinydd leader. He could not or would not make a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Ni allai neu ni decision, and could not or would not show wnâi benderfynu, ac ni allai neu ni wnâi any sort of leadership, and will not, even ddangos unrhyw fath o arweiniad, a hyd yn now, accept any responsibility for the oed yn awr, ni wnaiff dderbyn unrhyw shambles he has caused. gyfrifoldeb am y llanastr a achosodd.

On St David’s Day 2006, I can envisage Lord Ar Ddydd Gŵyl Dewi 2006, gallaf Elis-Thomas glowing with pride as he escorts ddychmygu’r Arglwydd Elis-Thomas yn some person of great eminence through the gwrido gan falchder wrth iddo hebrwng portals of a new democratic open space, rhywun enwog iawn drwy’r pyrth i fan glancing left and right at as yet uncosted agored newydd ar gyfer democratiaeth, gan works of art and then into the vastness of a fwrw golwg i’r dde a’r chwith ar weithiau sparkling new Chamber. If Rhodri Morgan is celf sydd heb eu prisio eto ac wedyn i still First Minister, I hope that he will have ehangder Siambr newydd sbon. Os yw the grace to hang his head in shame, because Rhodri Morgan yn dal i fod yn Brif the only part of the new building for which Weinidog, gobeithiaf y bydd yn ddigon he will carry any personal responsibility is graslon i ostwng ei ben mewn cywilydd, the inflated bill. oherwydd yr unig ran o’r adeilad newydd y bydd ganddo ef unrhyw gyfrifoldeb personol amdani yw’r bil chwyddedig.

Leighton Andrews: I will not pretend that Leighton Andrews: Ni chymeraf arnaf fod this building is popular in my constituency; it yr adeilad hwn yn boblogaidd yn fy is not. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Vote against etholaeth; nid ydyw. [AELODAU’R it.’] CYNULLIAD: ‘Pleidleisiwch yn ei erbyn.’]

The Presiding Officer: Order. I urge Y Llywydd: Trefn. Anogaf Aelodau i beidio Members not to get overexcited. â gorgynhyrfu.

Leighton Andrews: However, we sometimes Leighton Andrews: Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni have to take decisions because we think that wneud penderfyniadau weithiau am ein bod they are right, not because they are popular. yn credu eu bod yn iawn, nid am eu bod yn My priorities for capital spending in Rhondda boblogaidd. Fy mlaenoriaethau i ar gyfer are the new hospital at Llwynypia and the gwariant cyfalaf yn y Rhondda yw’r ysbyty Porth-Rhondda Fach relief road. I make those newydd yn Llwynypia a ffordd liniaru’r points upfront, as I want to see those projects Porth-Rhondda Fach. Gwnaf y pwyntiau proceed. I do not want them left behind in the hynny’n gyntaf, gan fy mod yn dymuno construction queue. I support the Cabinet gweld y prosiectau hynny’n mynd rhagddynt. because I believe that it will deliver the Nid wyf am iddynt gael eu gadael ar ôl yn y capital investment that my constituents need. ciw adeiladu. Cefnogaf y Cabinet am y credaf That was the outcome of the election on 1 y bydd yn rhoi’r buddsoddiad cyfalaf y mae May. The choice facing Assembly Members ar fy etholwyr ei angen. Dyna oedd canlyniad in 2003 is different from that which faced the yr etholiad ar 1 Mai. Mae’r dewis sy’n Assembly Members elected in 1999. It is not wynebu Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn 2003 yn a choice between a blank sheet of paper and a wahanol i’r un a wynebodd yr Aelodau price of £41 million. Costs have already been Cynulliad a etholwyd yn 1999. Nid yw’n incurred and money spent, and aborting the ddewis rhwng dalen bapur wag a phris o £41 project and breaking a contract would lead to miliwn. Tynnwyd costau eisoes a gwariwyd further costs. Money will have to be spent on arian, a byddai rhoi’r gorau i’r prosiect a

86 01/07/2003 security and physical access in this building thorri contract yn arwain at gostau pellach. if we do not go ahead with the new building. Bydd yn rhaid gwario arian ar ddiogelwch a Therefore it is not a choice between spending mynediad ffisegol i’r adeilad hwn os nad awn nothing and spending £41 million, and people ymlaen â’r adeilad newydd. Felly nid yw’n should not pretend otherwise. To put it ddewis rhwng gwario dim a gwario £41 bluntly, the choice before us in July 2003 miliwn, ac ni ddylai neb gymryd arno fel appears to be between spending a lot of arall. I’w roi’n blwmp ac yn blaen, money for nothing in return or spending more ymddengys bod y dewis sydd ger ein bron money to get something that works for yng Ngorffennaf 2003 yn un rhwng gwario Wales. llawer o arian a chael dim yn ôl a gwario mwy o arian i gael rhywbeth sy’n gweithio dros Gymru.

It is significant that only the Conservative Mae’n arwyddocaol mai dim ond y grŵp group opposes this building. [ASSEMBLY Ceidwadol sy’n gwrthwynebu’r adeilad hwn. MEMBERS: ‘What about Peter Law?’] The [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Beth am Peter Conservatives opposed the establishment of Law?’] Yr oedd y Ceidwadwyr yn erbyn the Assembly. sefydlu’r Cynulliad.

Lisa Francis and Nick Bourne rose— Lisa Francis a Nick Bourne a godasant—

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Member Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid yw’r Aelod yn ildio. is not giving way.

Leighton Andrews: The Conservatives Leighton Andrews: Yr oedd y Ceidwadwyr opposed devolution; they were the yn erbyn datganoli; hwy oedd dynion abominable ‘no’ men. We read in the papers ofnadwy y ‘na’. Darllenwn yn y papurau that, when the Conservative group discussed newydd mai’r unig gwestiwn a godwyd gan the new building, the only question raised by ddau o aelodau’r grŵp Ceidwadol, pan two of its members was, ‘Where will the bar drafododd yr adeilad newydd, oedd, ‘Ym be?’. They oppose the building now but, once mhle y bydd y bar?’. Maent yn erbyn yr it is built, they will make full use of it. They adeilad yn awr, ond wedi iddo gael ei godi, will be getting in the gins for farmers, young byddant yn ei ddefnyddio’n llawn. Byddant and old, carrying around the Camparis for yn prynu diodydd o jin i ffermwyr, hen ac their cronies in the Cardiff and County Club ifanc, yn rhannu’r diodydd o Campari ymysg and breaking out the Bacardis for the blazer eu ffrindiau yng Nghlwb Caerdydd a’r Sir ac brigade. The Tories, as we all know, say one yn estyn y Bacardis i griw’r blaseri. Mae’r thing, and do another. [Interruption.] Torïaid, fel y gwyddom i gyd, yn dweud un peth, ac yn gwneud peth arall. [Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. Leighton Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid yw Leighton Andrews is not giving way. Andrews yn ildio.

Leighton Andrews: I will give way to Nick Leighton Andrews: Ildiaf i Nick Bourne. Bourne.

Nick Bourne: I am grateful to you for giving Nick Bourne: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i chi am way. I would like to point out the ildio. Carwn dynnu sylw at yr anghysonderau inconsistencies in what you say. You began yn yr hyn a ddywedwch. Dechreuasoch drwy by saying that the people of the Rhondda are ddweud bod pobl y Rhondda yn erbyn y against this project, then you accused the prosiect hwn, ac wedyn cyhuddo’r Conservatives of being the only people in Ceidwadwyr o fod yn unig wrthwynebwyr Wales who were against it. It is well known iddo yng Nghymru. Mae’n dra hysbys bod y that most people in Wales are against this rhan fwyaf o bobl yng Nghymru yn erbyn y

87 01/07/2003 monstrous waste of money. You talk about gwastraff arian ofnadwy hwn. Soniwch am rising costs and the mess that we were in the gostau cynyddol a’r llanastr yr oeddem last time, but whose fault was that? It was the ynddo’r tro diwethaf, ond bai pwy oedd First Minister’s fault; blame him for the hynny? Bai’r Prif Weinidog ydoedd; rhowch rising costs. y bai arno ef am y costau cynyddol.

Leighton Andrews: The only group opposed Leighton Andrews: Yr unig grŵp sy’n to this building is the Welsh Conservative gwrthwynebu’r adeilad hwn yw grŵp group. That is what I said and that is the Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Dyna a ddywedais a truth. I support this building because it is dyna’r gwir. Cefnogaf yr adeilad hwn am mai right to do so. The choice before us today in iawn yw gwneud hynny. Mae’r dewis sydd 2003 is different from the choice that was ger ein bron heddiw yn 2003 yn wahanol i’r before Members in 1999. Money has been un a oedd gerbron Aelodau yn 1999. spent; we need to complete the job and get on Gwariwyd arian; rhaid inni fwrw ymlaen â’r with it. gwaith a’i gwblhau.

David Davies: I have not heard a single word David Davies: Ni chlywais yr un gair i of justification for this new building. Some gyfiawnhau codi’r adeilad hwn. Mae rhai people mentioned landmark buildings. We wedi sôn am adeiladau nodedig. Mae gennym already have landmark buildings in Cardiff: adeiladau nodedig yng Nghaerdydd eisoes; we have the City Hall and the Coal mae Neuadd y Ddinas gennym a’r Exchange. Either of those two buildings Gyfnewidfa Lo. Gellid cyfiawnhau might have made a justifiable parliament. We defnyddio’r naill neu’r llall o’r adeiladau heard of the cost of other buildings around hynny fel senedd. Clywsom am gost the country—and it still is a country at the adeiladau eraill o gwmpas y wlad—ac mae’n moment—such as Portcullis House. That was dal i fod yn wlad ar hyn o bryd—fel different, because Members of Parliament did Portcullis House. Yr oedd hynny’n wahanol, not have proper offices before it was built, am nad oedd gan Aelodau Seneddol but even if it was a waste of money, we are swyddfeydd iawn cyn ei godi, ond hyd yn not here to discuss money being wasted oed os ydoedd yn wastraff arian, nid ydym elsewhere in the UK. The amount of money yma i drafod gwastraffu arian mewn mannau that has been thrown away on the Scottish eraill yn y DU. Nid yw’r swm o arian a Parliament, and, possibly, on Portcullis wastraffwyd ar Senedd yr Alban ac, o bosibl, House, does not justify what we are about to ar Portcullis House, yn cyfiawnhau’r hyn yr do today. ydym ar fin ei wneud heddiw.

We are responsible for the £55 million that Ni sy’n gyfrifol am y £55 miliwn a gaiff ei will be spent on the new building. We are wario ar yr adeilad newydd. Ni sy’n gyfrifol responsible for safeguarding and spending am ddiogelu a gwario’r arian hwnnw. Fel yr that money. As the previous speaker made eglurodd y siaradwr blaenorol, nid yw hyd yn clear, even people in strong Labour oed rhai mewn etholaethau Llafur cryf yn constituencies do not support this new cefnogi’r adeilad newydd hwn. Dywedodd building. Rhodri Morgan said that we oppose Rhodri Morgan ein bod yn erbyn adeilad the new Assembly building because we newydd y Cynulliad am ein bod yn erbyn oppose devolution. How wrong you are, First datganoli. Yr ydych yn camgymryd yn arw, Minister. If we wanted to increase apathy Brif Weinidog. Pe byddem am gynyddu’r towards the Assembly, it would be much difaterwch ynghylch y Cynulliad, byddai’n easier to quietly go along with your plans to haws o lawer cydsynio’n dawel â’ch bwriad i waste £55 million. It strikes me as a supreme wastraffu £55 miliwn. Mae’n fy nharo fel irony that those of us who opposed eironi o’r mwyaf bod y rhai ohonom a devolution now want to increase support for wrthwynebodd ddatganoli bellach yn dymuno the Assembly by taking action that reflects hybu’r gefnogaeth i’r Cynulliad drwy what the people of Wales want. You are gymryd camau sy’n adlewyrchu dymuniad digging a hole for yourselves in more ways pobl Cymru. Yr ydych yn torri twll i chi’ch than one by going against the wishes of the hun ar fwy nag un ystyr drwy fynd yn groes i

88 01/07/2003 people of Wales. As the new building rises, ddymuniad pobl Cymru. Wrth i’r adeilad you will be undermining the shallow newydd godi’n uwch, byddwch yn tanseilio foundations of the very institution that you sylfeini brau yr union sefydliad yr ydych am want it to house. This is the final opportunity ei gartrefu ynddo. Dyma’r cyfle olaf i for common sense to prevail— synnwyr cyffredin ennill y dydd—

Lorraine Barrett: Will you give way? Lorraine Barrett: A wnewch ildio?

David Davies: No, I do not have time. This David Davies: Na wnaf, nid oes gennyf is the final opportunity for common sense to ddigon o amser. Dyma’r cyfle olaf i synnwyr prevail. Frankly, First Minister, you should cyffredin ennill y dydd. A siarad yn blwmp remember that it is not the location of the ac yn blaen, Brif Weinidog, dylech gofio nad Chamber that counts, but the substance of lleoliad y Siambr sy’n cyfrif, ond sylwedd yr what we say. Therefore, abandon the plans hyn a ddywedwn. Gan hynny, rhowch y for the new building and let us spend that £55 gorau i’r cynlluniau ar gyfer yr adeilad million on schools and hospitals and on newydd a gadewch inni wario’r £55 miliwn delivering high-class public services that will hwnnw ar ysgolion ac ysbytai ac ar ddarparu be relevant to everyone in Wales. gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o safon dda a fydd yn berthnasol i bawb yng Nghymru.

Helen Mary Jones: It is with some sadness Helen Mary Jones: Teimlaf beth tristwch that I rise to make my contribution to this wrth godi i gyfrannu i’r ddadl hon. Yr wyf debate. I am on record as being a strong wedi dweud ar goedd fy mod yn bleidiol supporter of a new Chamber in principle. iawn i Siambr newydd mewn egwyddor. Mae Wales deserves better than being represented Cymru’n haeddu gwell na chael ei out of a remodelled computer room that looks chynrychioli mewn ystafell gyfrifiaduron like a remodelled computer room. We had, wedi’i hailwampio sydd â golwg ystafell and I hope still have, the opportunity to gyfrifiaduron wedi’i hailwampio. Yr oedd create a building that will reflect Wales as a gennym gyfle, ac mae gennym o hyd yr wyf nation and the key principles of sustainability yn gobeithio, i greu adeilad a fydd yn and equality to which legislation binds the adlewyrchu Cymru fel cenedl a’r Assembly and which the first Assembly egwyddorion allweddol o gynaliadwyedd a embraced with enthusiasm. Therefore, I was chydraddoldeb y mae deddfwriaeth yn deeply concerned to learn, less than a rhwymo’r Cynulliad iddynt ac a dderbyniwyd fortnight ago, that major disability yn frwd gan y Cynulliad cyntaf. Gan hynny, organisations have grave concerns about the gofid mawr i mi oedd cael gwybod, lai na process by which disabled people have been phythefnos yn ôl, bod cyrff anabledd o bwys consulted about the building and about a yn bryderus dros ben ynghylch y broses o major aspect of the current design. ymgynghori â phobl anabl am yr adeilad ac ynghylch un agwedd o bwys ar y cynllun presennol.

Last night, all Members were sent a letter Neithiwr, anfonwyd llythyr at yr holl from Disability Wales outlining those Aelodau gan Anabledd Cymru sy’n concerns. Briefly, the issue is that, despite disgrifio’r pryderon hynny. Yn fyr, y mater many positive changes to the original design dan sylw yw, er gwaethaf y nifer fawr o that have greatly improved access for newidiadau cadarnhaol i’r cynllun gwreiddiol wheelchair users to most of the new building, sydd wedi gwneud yr adeilad newydd yn the Chamber itself is so steeply raked that llawer mwy hygyrch i ddefnyddwyr cadeiriau any wheelchair user who was in the Cabinet, olwynion, fod y Siambr ei hun ar oleddf mor or a leader of an opposition party seated in serth fel y bydd unrhyw ddefnyddiwr cadair the front rows, will have to use an electronic olwynion a oedd yn y Cabinet, neu’n wheelchair lift to enable them to move arweinydd gwrthblaid â’i sedd yn y rhesi around the Chamber. The raking is to enable blaen, yn gorfod defnyddio lifft cadeiriau broadcasters to get a better shot of the olwynion electronig i’w alluogi i symud o

89 01/07/2003 proceedings than a flat or flatter Chamber gwmpas y Siambr. Pwrpas y goleddf yw would allow. That is important. Indeed, it is galluogi darlledwyr i gael llun gwell o’r an access issue in itself, because it is chiefly trafodion nag y gallent mewn Siambr wastad through broadcasting that many people in neu fwy gwastad. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Yn Wales access our proceedings. However, I wir, mae hynny’n fater mynediad ynddo’i would be prepared to live with an unflattering hun, oherwydd drwy ddarlledu’n bennaf y camera angle to avoid a disabled colleague’s bydd llawer o bobl yng Nghymru’n gweld ein having to suffer the indignity of having to use trafodion. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn barod i a noisy piece of electronic equipment to oddef ongl camera angharedig i sicrhau na move around the new Chamber. Electronic fyddai cyd-Aelod anabl yn gorfod dioddef lifts are acceptable solutions in old buildings, defnyddio offer electronig swnllyd i symud o but the new Chamber is supposed to be an gwmpas y Siambr newydd. Mae lifftiau exemplar, state-of-the-art building. In that electronig yn ateb derbyniol mewn hen one regard, it is not. There are also practical adeiladau, ond mae’r Siambr newydd i fod yn considerations. The lift is expensive, it would batrwm o adeilad a fydd gyda’r mwyaf be costly to maintain, and would need to be modern. Yn hynny o beth, nid ydyw. Mae regularly replaced, and that raises questions ystyriaethau ymarferol hefyd. Mae’r lifft yn about sustainability. Disabled groups have gostus, byddai’n ddrud i’w chynnal, a not raised these issues publicly, but they have byddai’n rhaid ei hamnewid yn rheolaidd, ac attempted to raise them internally. It is mae hynny’n codi cwestiynau ynghylch regrettable that the Assembly access advisory cynaliadwyedd. Nid yw grwpiau anabledd group, and others, were not allowed to meet wedi codi’r materion hynny’n gyhoeddus, broadcasters face to face until yesterday. ond maent wedi ceisio eu codi’n fewnol. Testun gofid yw na chaniatawyd i grŵp ymgynghorol y Cynulliad ar fynediad, ac eraill, gwrdd â darlledwyr wyneb yn wyneb tan ddoe.

5.10 p.m.

Wales needs a new Chamber. We need a Mae ar Gymru angen Siambr newydd. Mae symbol of which we can be proud, but we do arnom angen symbol y gallwn ymfalchïo not need a Chamber that stigmatises ynddi, ond nid oes arnom angen Siambr sy’n wheelchair users and others with mobility gwarthnodi defnyddwyr cadeiriau olwynion problems. Those who have been involved in ac eraill sy’n ei chael yn anodd symud o this process have been full of good intentions, gwmpas. Yr oedd y rhai a gymerodd ran yn y but good intentions are not enough. The fault broses hon yn dda eu bwriad, ond nid yw can be traced back to the beginning of this bwriadau da’n ddigon. Gellir olrhain y diffyg process, when the highest possible access i ddechrau’r broses hon, gan ei bod yn amlwg standards clearly did not form part of the nad oedd y safonau mynediad gorau posibl original specification set by the Secretary of yn rhan o’r fanyleb wreiddiol a osodwyd gan State for Wales. Whatever the history, I ask Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Beth bynnag the Government to reconsider the Chamber. I fu’r hanes, gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth do not claim to know what the technical ailystyried y Siambr. Ni honnaf fy mod yn answers are, but I find it hard to believe that gwybod yr atebion technegol, ond yr wyf yn there are none. Disabled people have ei chael yn anodd credu nad oes rhai. Mae compromised on the building. The presence pobl anabl wedi cyfaddawdu ynghylch yr of steps at the front of the building—now, adeilad. Mae rhai o’r farn bod presenoldeb rightly, to be interspersed with ramps—has grisiau o flaen yr adeilad—y gosodir rampiau been seen by some as being oppressive and rhyngddynt yn awr, fel y bo’n briodol—yn exclusionary, but has now been accepted. I ormesol ac yn anghynhwysol, ond will vote for this motion, because not to do so derbyniwyd hynny bellach. Pleidleisiaf o would risk making the shambles that the blaid y cynnig hwn, gan y byddai peidio â Government has made of the whole process gwneud hynny’n mentro gwneud y llanastr a even worse. However, I do so with some wnaeth y Llywodraeth o’r holl broses yn

90 01/07/2003 regret. The Government has let down one in waeth byth. Fodd bynnag, gwnaf hynny â six of the citizens of Wales—our disabled pheth gofid. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi citizens. I hope that there is still time to put gwneud cam ag un o bob chwech o that right. ddinasyddion Cymru—ein dinasyddion anabl. Gobeithiaf fod digon o amser i gywiro hynny.

Alun Cairns: There are three key issues with Alun Cairns: Cyfyd tri mater allweddol regard to the new building. The first is the mewn cysylltiad â’r adeilad newydd. Y cost of the Assembly building as opposed to cyntaf yw cost adeilad y Cynulliad yn its prestige and status: the argument hytrach na’i statws a’i fri, sef y ddadl a presented by those in favour of the building. I gyflwynwyd gan y rhai sydd o blaid yr remember asking some years ago in the adeilad. Cofiaf ofyn rai blynyddoedd yn ôl yn Assembly—the cost at that time was a little y Cynulliad—y gost bryd hynny oedd over £20 million—at what point, if the ychydig yn fwy nag £20 miliwn—ar ba prestige and status argument were allowed to bwynt, pe rhoddid y lle blaenaf i’r ddadl preside, should we stop: at £25 million, £30 statws a bri, y dylem roi’r gorau iddo: ar ôl million or £35 million? I remember all the cyrraedd £25 miliwn, £30 miliwn neu £35 Members who will vote in favour of it today, miliwn? Cofiaf fod yr holl Aelodau a fydd yn saying, ‘no, no, no, it will never cost that pleidleisio o’i blaid heddiw wedi dweud, ‘na, amount’. We have now reached that amount, na, na, ni wnaiff byth gostio cymaint â and it is time that those of you who intend to hynny’. Yr ydym wedi cyrraedd y swm vote in favour of the motion today, think long hwnnw bellach, ac mae’n bryd i’r rhai and hard about the answer that you gave ohonoch sy’n bwriadu pleidleisio dros y some three years ago when you said that the cynnig heddiw feddwl yn hir ac yn ddwys am building would never reach the cost of £55 yr ateb a roesoch tua thair blynedd yn ôl pan million. ddywedasoch na fyddai’r adeilad byth yn cyrraedd y gost o £55 miliwn.

The second issue relates to the role of the Mae’r ail fater yn ymwneud â rôl y Prif First Minister. He personally intervened and Weinidog. Ymyrrodd yn bersonol ac added to the cost of this building. That is the ychwanegu at gost yr adeilad hwn. Dyna’r consequence of his lack of leadership. He has canlyniad i’w ddiffyg arweiniad. Mae wedi cost the taxpayer, the patient, the nurse and costio cannoedd o filoedd, neu filiynau o the pupil hundreds of thousands of pounds, bunnoedd o bosibl, i’r trethdalwr, y claf, y possibly millions of pounds, as a result of his nyrs a’r disgybl, o ganlyniad i’w ymyrryd a’i personal intervention and delays. People must ohirio. Rhaid i bobl ei farnu ar hynny. Mae’r judge him on that. The third issue relates to trydydd mater yn ymwneud ag amseru. Mae timing. The timing of this debate stinks. To amseriad y ddadl hon yn drewi. Mae’r ffaith come forward with a much inflated figure— bod ffigur uwch o lawer wedi’i roi gerbron— more than £55 million from some £40 mwy na £55 miliwn o’i gymharu â thua £40 million—within weeks of an Assembly miliwn—o fewn wythnosau i etholiadau i’r election in the hope that, because there are Cynulliad gan obeithio, am fod pedair four years to the next Assembly election, the blynedd tan yr etholiadau nesaf i’r Cynulliad, people of Wales will forget about the First y bydd pobl Cymru’n anghofio am ddiffyg Minister’s lack of leadership, stinks. Those arweiniad y Prif Weinidog, yn drewi. Dyna’r are the three issues with regard to the tri mater sy’n codi mewn cysylltiad â’r building, but there are also the consequences adeilad, ond mae canlyniadau hefyd i’ch that face your constituents. etholwyr.

I have been in contact today with a Bridgend Bûm mewn cysylltiad heddiw ag etholwr ym constituent who is waiting for a heart Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr sy’n aros am operation. He is living from day to day, out lawdriniaeth i’w galon. Mae’n byw o ddydd i of breath. He is waiting for a response from ddydd, ac yn methu â chael ei wynt. Mae’n the chief executive of the specialist heart unit disgwyl ateb gan brif weithredwr yr uned

91 01/07/2003 at Morriston Hospital. That is the reality. galon arbenigol yn Ysbyty Treforys. Dyna’r Were I to vote for spending £55 million on a wir sefyllfa. Pe byddwn yn pleidleisio new Assembly building today, I could never heddiw dros wario £55 miliwn ar adeilad look that constituent in the eye again. All of newydd i’r Cynulliad, ni allwn byth edrych i you must face that. You need to be able to fyw llygad yr etholwr hwnnw eto. Rhaid i look your constituents in the eye. When the bob un ohonoch wynebu hynny. Rhaid ichi next one needs a hip operation or a heart allu edrych i fyw llygad eich etholwyr. Pan fo operation— ar yr un nesaf angen llawdriniaeth i’w glun neu ei galon—

The Presiding Officer: Order. You are out Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae’ch amser ar ben. of time.

Denise Idris Jones: Yr wyf yn falch y bydd Denise Idris Jones: I am pleased that llechen Bethesda yn cael ei defnyddio yn Bethesda slate will be used in the new adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Assembly building.

I am delighted that the slate that will be used Yr wyf yn falch y bydd y llechi a ddefnyddir in the new Assembly building will be yn adeilad newydd y Cynulliad yn cael eu quarried in my constituency, using local cloddio yn fy etholaeth i, gan weithwyr lleol Welsh labour. That will boost the area and o Gymru. Bydd hynny’n hwb i’r ardal ac yn will provide an excellent example of the cynnig enghraifft ragorol o harddwch beauty of a natural Welsh material. deunydd Cymreig naturiol.

Jonathan Morgan: This debate is not just Jonathan Morgan: Mae’r ddadl hon yn about whether we should enter into a contract ymwneud â mwy nag a ddylem wneud to spend £55 million of public money on a contract i wario £55 miliwn o arian new palace for politicians. It is also about the cyhoeddus ar balas newydd i wleidyddion. damage done to the perception of this Mae’n ymwneud hefyd â’r niwed a wnaed i’r institution by the Labour Assembly canfyddiad o’r sefydliad hwn gan y Government and its allies in the opposition Llywodraeth Cynulliad Lafur a’i parties during this long-running farce. chynghreiriaid yn y gwrthbleidiau yn ystod y ffars hirhoedlog hon.

It is worth reminding ourselves of the events Mae’n werth ein hatgoffa ein hunain o’r that have brought us to where we are today. digwyddiadau a ddaeth â ni i’r sefyllfa hon After the referendum, the Secretary of State heddiw. Ar ôl y refferendwm, ni allai for Wales could not decide whether the Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru benderfynu a Assembly should be based in Swansea or in ddylid lleoli’r Cynulliad yn Abertawe neu Cardiff, so we had a debate on it. yng Nghaerdydd, felly cawsom ddadl ar hynny.

Jenny Randerson: Will you give way? Jenny Randerson: A wnewch ildio?

Jonathan Morgan: No. I may do later on. Jonathan Morgan: Na wnaf. Efallai y gwnaf Having determined that the Assembly yn ddiweddarach. Ar ôl penderfynu y dylid building should be located in Cardiff, the lleoli adeilad y Cynulliad yng Nghaerdydd, ni Secretary of State could not decide whether allai’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol benderfynu a the building should be in the city centre—in ddylai’r adeilad fod yng nghanol y ddinas— City Hall—or in Cardiff bay. There was yn Neuadd y Ddinas—neu ym mae another debate about that. He then decided Caerdydd. Bu dadl arall am hynny. that City Hall might be the best option, so he Penderfynodd wedyn mai Neuadd y Ddinas entered into negotiations with the Labour allai fod yn ddewis gorau, felly cychwynnodd leader of Cardiff County Council, but they negodiadau ag arweinydd Llafur Cyngor Sir could not reach an agreement on price. This Caerdydd, ond ni allent gytuno ar bris.

92 01/07/2003 farce continued for months and years and has Parhaodd y ffars hon am fisoedd a led us to where we are today. City Hall would blynyddoedd ac fe’n harweiniodd i sefyllfa have been a fine building in which to locate heddiw. Buasai Neuadd y Ddinas yn adeilad the Assembly but, because of a disagreement rhagorol i gartrefu’r Cynulliad ond, on price, we find ourselves in Cardiff bay by oherwydd anghytuno ar bris, cawn ein hunain default. We are here today because of the ym mae Caerdydd yn niffyg hynny. Yr ydym ineptitude of Labour politicians, and of the yma heddiw oherwydd anfedrusrwydd Secretary of State for Wales in particular, at gwleidyddion Llafur, ac Ysgrifennydd that time. Gwladol Cymru yn benodol, bryd hynny.

We then saw the greatest farce of all. There Wedyn gwelsom y ffars fwyaf oll. Bu was a Blue-Peter-style competition to see cystadleuaeth yn null Blue Peter i weld pwy a who could design and build the nicest allai ddylunio ac adeiladu’r Siambr brafiaf i Chamber for egotistical politicians to sit in. wleidyddion hunanbwysig gael eistedd ynddi. The design competition was judged by a Barnwyd y gystadleuaeth dylunio gan committee that was chaired by a Labour peer, bwyllgor dan gadeiryddiaeth arglwydd whose daughter was the Labour leader of the Llafur, yr oedd ei ferch yn arweinydd Llafur House of Lords, who then chose another yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi, a aeth ymlaen i ddewis Labour peer to build the new Assembly arglwydd Llafur arall i adeiladu Siambr Chamber. It was sleazy and conniving and newydd y Cynulliad. Bu hynny’n amheus ac illustrates the way in which the Labour Party yn llechwraidd ac mae’n dangos y modd y in Cardiff bay has handled the entire debacle. mae’r Blaid Lafur ym mae Caerdydd wedi trafod y llanastr hwn o’r dechrau.

The Presiding Officer: Order. I ask Y Llywydd: Trefn. Gofynnaf i Jonathan Jonathan Morgan to consider whether the Morgan ystyried a yw’r sylwadau a wnaeth remarks he has made about some of my am rai o’m cyd-seneddwyr mewn trefn. parliamentary colleagues are in order.

Jonathan Morgan: I did not refer to any Jonathan Morgan: Ni ddywedais fod individual as being sleazy. I said that the way unrhyw unigolyn yn amheus. Dywedais fod in which the Labour Party has handled the dull y Blaid Lafur o drafod y mater yn matter has been sleazy. It has led to the amheus. Arweiniodd at y canfyddiad na fu’r handling of the project as being seen as not in dull o drafod y prosiect hwn er budd pobl the best interests of the people of Wales. The Cymru. Mae’r modd y mae’r Llywodraeth way that the Government has handled this wedi trafod hyn wedi gwneud drwg i has damaged the public’s perception of the ganfyddiad y cyhoedd o Gynulliad National Assembly for Wales. We have had a Cenedlaethol Cymru. Deunaw ar hugain y turnout of 38 per cent in a National Assembly cant o’r etholwyr a bleidleisiodd yn election, and building a new Chamber for £55 etholiadau’r Cynulliad, ac ni fydd codi million will do nothing to encourage more Siambr newydd am £55 miliwn yn gwneud people to vote. The Assembly Labour Party dim i gymell rhagor o bobl i bleidleisio. Y has done that damage. This building is not Blaid Lafur yn y Cynulliad a wnaeth y niwed the priority of the people of Wales—it is the hwnnw. Nid yr adeilad hwn yw blaenoriaeth priority of the Cabinet and its allies in the pobl Cymru—blaenoriaeth y Cabinet a’i Assembly. We should ditch this project and gynghreiriaid yn y Cynulliad ydyw. Dylem concentrate on public services. roi’r gorau i’r prosiect hwn a chanolbwyntio ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus.

Edwina Hart: The people of Wales showed Edwina Hart: Dangosodd pobl Cymru eu their priorities on 1 May when they elected a blaenoriaethau ar 1 Mai pan etholasant Labour Government. You fought and lost an Lywodraeth Lafur. Gwnaethoch chi ymladd a election on the issue of the new building and cholli etholiad ar fater yr adeilad newydd a prattled on about a children’s hospital, yet it chlebran am ysbyty plant, ond y Llywodraeth is this Government that has provided money hon a ddarparodd arian ar gyfer Tŷ Hafan ac

93 01/07/2003 for Tŷ Hafan and other resources for children adnoddau eraill i blant ledled Cymru. Ni across Wales. You did not win. wnaethoch ennill.

On the new building, I say to Peter Law that Ynghylch yr adeilad newydd, dywedaf wrth the result of the competition and the decision Peter Law fod canlyniad y gystadleuaeth a’r on where to locate the Assembly dismayed penderfyniad ar leoli’r Cynulliad yn destun me, as an AM for the Swansea area. I speak siom i mi, fel Aelod Cynulliad dros ardal for my fellow Swansea AMs and the people Abertawe. Siaradaf ar ran fy nghyd-Aelodau of Swansea when I say that we were hurt Cynulliad yn Abertawe a phobl Abertawe pan when matters went pear-shaped and it was ddywedaf inni gael ein brifo pan aeth pethau decided to locate the Assembly in Cardiff, o chwith ac y penderfynwyd lleoli’r which I thought was inevitable. Despite that, Cynulliad yng Nghaerdydd, a hynny’n I am prepared to support the building. You anorfod, yn fy marn i. Er gwaethaf hynny, yr mentioned a bauble of self-indulgence, Peter, wyf yn barod i gefnogi’r adeilad. but your speech was a self-indulgent bauble. Cyfeiriasoch at degan hunanfaldodus, Peter, As a politician, you must ultimately be ond peth felly oedd eich araith chi. Fel prepared to stand up for what is right and not gwleidydd, rhaid ichi fod yn barod yn y pen always look to the main electoral chance. draw i sefyll dros yr hyn sy’n iawn a pheidio â gofalu am eich lles etholiadol eich hun bob amser.

5.20 p.m.

On Helen Mary’s comments on disability, we Ynghylch sylwadau Helen Mary am always wanted to ensure the best building anabledd, yr oeddem bob amser am sicrhau’r possible. It is acknowledged that the public adeilad gorau posibl. Cydnabyddir y bydd y areas in the new building will be first class. mannau cyhoeddus yn yr adeilad newydd o’r There are issues about the Chamber, but there radd flaenaf. Mae materion wedi codi must be a balance between the requirements ynghylch y Siambr, ond rhaid dal y ddysgl yn of the disabled and requirements of the media wastad rhwng anghenion pobl anabl ac because the Assembly is the democratic anghenion y cyfryngau oherwydd y showcase for Wales: I am sorry that a better Cynulliad yw’r man i arddangos compromise could not have been made. Also, democratiaeth Cymru: mae’n ddrwg gennyf you must acknowledge the press release na fu modd dod i gyfaddawd gwell. Hefyd, issued today by Disability Wales, which was rhaid ichi gydnabod y datganiad i’r wasg a involved in the discussions. I am sorry, gyhoeddwyd heddiw gan Anabledd Cymru, a Helen, that you do not feel that it was gymerodd ran yn y trafodaethau. Mae’n sufficiently involved, but I feel that it was. ddrwg gennyf, Helen, eich bod yn teimlo nad Disability Wales was represented, and it was oedd wedi cymryd digon o ran, ond yr wyf important that it was represented, and we fi’n teimlo ei fod. Cynrychiolwyd Anabledd must now follow the path chosen. Cymru, ac yr oedd yn bwysig iddo gael ei gynrychioli, a rhaid inni ddilyn y llwybr a ddewiswyd yn awr.

This is a historic day for democracy and Mae hwn yn ddiwrnod hanesyddol i devolution in Wales. Today, we will decide ddemocratiaeth a datganoli yng Nghymru. to proceed with a new public building with Heddiw, penderfynwn fwrw ymlaen ag the Assembly Chamber at its heart, where adeilad cyhoeddus newydd â Siambr y issues affecting Wales will be debated and Cynulliad ar ei ganol, lle y bydd materion decided. It is a home for Welsh democracy sy’n effeithio ar Gymru’n cael eu trafod a’u and the cradle of devolution, and I feel penderfynu. Mae’n gartref i ddemocratiaeth passionately about this matter. As chair of the Cymru ac yn grud i ddatganoli, a theimlaf yn policy steering group, I have lived and angerddol am y mater hwn. Fel cadeirydd y breathed this building and I am pleased— grŵp llywio polisi, yr wyf wedi byw a bod gyda’r adeilad hwn ac yr wyf yn falch—

94 01/07/2003

Nick Bourne rose— Nick Bourne a gododd—

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Minister Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn is not giving way. ildio.

Edwina Hart: I am pleased that the final Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn falch bod y cam stage for the building is now being discussed terfynol ar gyfer yr adeilad yn cael ei drafod and that the final price has been agreed. I yn awr ac y cytunwyd ar y pris terfynol. record my thanks to all the staff, past and Cofnodaf fy niolchiadau i’r holl staff, yn y present, who were involved in the policy presennol a’r gorffennol, a fu’n gysylltiedig steering group, and to you, Presiding Officer, â’r grŵp llywio polisi, ac i chi, Lywydd, am for being at the heart of this matter, and gymryd rhan lawn yn y mater hwn ac am fod willing to discuss all the issues. I thank Mike yn barod i drafod yr holl faterion a oedd yn German and the Welsh Liberal Democrat codi. Diolchaf i Mike German a grŵp group, who have always readily given their Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, a fu bob support—and their criticism when necessary. amser yn barod i gefnogi—ac i feirniadu pan I also thank two former colleagues who are oedd angen hynny. Diolchaf hefyd i ddau gyn not here today, Cynog Dafis and Dafydd gyd-Aelod nad ydynt yma heddiw, Cynog Wigley, both of whom were members of the Dafis a Dafydd Wigley, y bu’r ddau ohonynt policy steering group. I am sure that Cynog yn aelodau o’r grŵp llywio polisi. Yr wyf yn will be delighted with the green standards— siŵr y bydd Cynog wrth ei fodd gyda’r the natural ventilation, passive heating and safonau gwyrdd—yr awyru naturiol, cooling systems and a wood-fired central systemau gwresogi ac oeri goddefol a system heating boiler system. We dealt with these boeler gwresogi canolog sy’n llosgi coed. issues on the policy steering group. I think Gwnaethom ymdrin â’r materion hyn yn y that the model now on display in the neuadd grŵp llywio polisi. Credaf fod y model sy’n is beautiful. It is a building that people will cael ei arddangos yn awr yn y neuadd yn un be proud of in 100 years time. Jonathan hyfryd. Mae’n adeilad y bydd pobl yn falch attempted to give us a history lesson, but ohono ymhen 100 mlynedd. Ceisiodd ultimately, history will judge us well on our Jonathan roi gwers hanes i ni, ond yn y pen vision of a first-class public building. You draw, bydd hanes yn barnu o’n plaid ar ein can spend the next 100 years, as it looks even gweledigaeth o adeilad cyhoeddus o’r radd more beautiful, in opposition. flaenaf. Cewch chi dreulio’r 100 mlynedd nesaf, gan ei bod yn ymddangos yn fwy hyfryd byth, yn yr wrthblaid.

Brynle Williams: I have listened to this Brynle Williams: Gwrandewais ar y ddadl debate and we are forgetting someone— hon a bu inni anghofio rhywrai—pobl. [Torri people. [Interruption.] No, it is not farmers, ar draws.] Nage, nid y ffermwyr, cewch you can laugh and jeer all you want, but chwerthin a gwawdio fel y mynnwch, ond Labour has always looked after and been mae Llafur wedi arfer gofalu a phoeni am concerned about people. Peter Law’s bobl erioed. Yr oedd cyfraniad Peter Law yn contribution made sense, and Members must gwneud synnwyr, a rhaid i Aelodau chwilio search their consciences and consider the eu cydwybod ac ystyried maint y gwariant— amount of expenditure—£55 million. I could £55 miliwn. Ni allwn edrych i fyw llygaid fy not look my constituents back in north Wales etholwyr yn y Gogledd pe byddwn yn in the eye were I to vote for this motion. pleidleisio dros y cynnig hwn. Mae pobl y People in north Wales feel remote from Gogledd yn teimlo eu bod yn bell o Cardiff, and part of that £55 million could Gaerdydd, ac efallai y gellid defnyddio rhan possibly be used to bring north Wales a bit o’r £55 miliwn hwnnw i ddod â’r Gogledd closer, by improving the A470, for example. ychydig yn nes, drwy wella’r A470, er Perhaps we could have a better hospital enghraifft. Efallai y gallem gael gwell service throughout the country— gwasanaeth ysbytai ledled y wlad—

95 01/07/2003

Jeff Cuthbert rose— Jeff Cuthbert a gododd—

Brynle Williams: I will not give way to you. Brynle Williams: Nid ildiaf i chi. Mae’n I am sorry, but this is my first major speech ddrwg gennyf, ond hon yw fy araith fawr and I feel passionately about this matter. gyntaf a theimlaf yn angerddol ynghylch y Wales should have a palace to house its mater hwn. Dylai Cymru gael palas i gartrefu Government. We have waited for over 600 ei Llywodraeth. Buom yn disgwyl am un ers years for one. We should only build a new mwy na 600 mlynedd. Ni ddylem ond codi building when we can afford to do so. I do adeilad newydd pan allwn fforddio gwneud not believe that we can afford it at present. I hynny. Ni chredaf y gallwn ei fforddio ar hyn am not prepared to tell people in north Wales o bryd. Nid wyf yn barod i ddweud wrth bobl that their hospital appointments have been yn y Gogledd bod eu hapwyntiadau ysbyty put back by six to 12 months, nor am I wedi’u gohirio am chwech i 12 mis, ac nid prepared to tell the parent of a child with wyf yn barod ychwaith i ddweud wrth riant i leukaemia that we cannot afford treatment. blentyn sydd â lewcemia na allwn fforddio That is all I have to say on the matter. triniaeth. Dyna’r cwbl sydd gennyf i’w ddweud ar y mater.

The Finance Minister (Sue Essex): I cannot Y Gweinidog Cyllid (Sue Essex): Ni allaf respond to everyone in detail, as Members ymateb i bawb yn fanwl, gan fod Aelodau covered many points in their contributions. wedi ymdrin â llawer o bwyntiau yn eu However, I hope that, during my five cyfraniadau. Er hynny, yr wyf yn gobeithio, minutes, I will cover the main points raised yn ystod y pum munud sydd gennyf, y and sum up at the end. I will not take byddaf yn ymdrin â’r prif bwyntiau a godwyd interventions otherwise I will not do justice ac yn crynhoi ar y diwedd. Ni dderbyniaf to the points raised. ymyriadau neu, fel arall, ni wnaf gyfiawnder â’r pwyntiau a godwyd.

Having become involved as Finance Minister A minnau wedi dechrau cymryd rhan fel at the end of the design project, I believe that Gweinidog Cyllid ar ddiwedd y prosiect it is my duty to support the will of the dylunio, credaf ei bod yn ddyletswydd arnaf majority of Members and to take forward the gefnogi ewyllys y mwyafrif o Aelodau a intense development work and preparation bwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith datblygu a pharatoi that has already been undertaken, as Edwina dwys a gyflawnwyd eisoes, fel y nododd mentioned. The reason for this debate was to Edwina. Cynhaliwyd y ddadl hon er mwyn clarify a commitment, made in the last egluro ymrwymiad, a wnaed yn y Cynulliad Assembly, to bring this proposal forward, diwethaf, i ddwyn y cynnig hwn gerbron, tua towards the end of this term. Therefore, there diwedd y tymor hwn. Gan hynny, nid oes is no ambiguity nor a connection with the unrhyw amwysedd na chysylltiad â’r election, Alun, as it was clearly stated when etholiad, Alun, gan y nodwyd yn glir pa bryd this proposal would come before the y deuai’r cynnig hwn gerbron y Cynulliad. Yr Assembly. We have stood by that. Members ydym wedi dal at hynny. Mae Aelodau wedi have received a substantial amount of cael swm sylweddol o wybodaeth, a information, and briefing sessions were given darparwyd sesiynau briffio ar gyfer y tri grŵp to the three groups that wanted them; they a oedd yn dymuno eu cael; fe’u cynigiwyd i’r were offered to the fourth group but it did not pedwerydd grŵp ond nid oedd am eu cael. want it. A model of the building has been Gosodwyd model o’r adeilad y tu allan i’r placed outside the Chamber and I am sure Siambr ac yr wyf yn sicr y darperir unrhyw that any further information required will be wybodaeth bellach y gofynnir amdani. supplied.

The core issues of this debate are the same as Yr un yw materion canolog y ddadl hon â’r those that existed in the beginning: whether rhai a fu ar y dechrau: a ydych yn credu y you believe that this building should be built; dylid codi’r adeilad hwn; a ydych yn credu y whether you believe that it will be a symbol bydd yn symbol o’r ddemocratiaeth newydd i

96 01/07/2003 of the new democracy for Wales, and Gymru, ac a ydych yn credu y bydd yn whether you believe that it will be a symbol symbol o ddatblygu cynaliadwy yng of sustainable development in Wales and a Nghymru ac yn adeilad y gall cenedlaethau’r building of which subsequent generations can dyfodol ymfalchïo ynddo. Dyna graidd y be proud. That is at the core of today’s ddadl heddiw. Deallaf fod rhai Aelodau nad debate. I understand that some Members do ydynt yn credu yn y prosiect ac nad ydynt am not believe in the project and do not want it. I ei gael. Credaf hefyd na ddylid ceryddu’r rhai also believe that those who want to take the sy’n dymuno bwrw ymlaen â’r prosiect fel project forward should not be chastised as not rhai nad ydynt yn credu mewn gwasanaethau believing in, or caring about, public services, cyhoeddus nac yn pryderu amdanynt, ac fel and as not having taken enough care. We rhai sydd heb fod yn ddigon gofalus. Yr have fought to reach this point, and those ydym wedi ymladd i gyrraedd y fan hon, ac who believe in the project should not be ni ddylid ceryddu’r rhai sy’n credu yn y chastised for the decision that they will make, prosiect am y penderfyniad a wnânt, â with a clear conscience, on behalf of the chydwybod glir, ar ran y bobl a gynrychiolant people they represent and the rest of Wales a gweddill Cymru heddiw. Mae’n bwysig today. It is important to make that clear. egluro hynny.

In my experience, flagship buildings, Yn fy mhrofiad i, mae adeiladau nodedig, yn particularly public buildings, entail difficult enwedig rhai cyhoeddus, yn gofyn decisions on design and costs. Therefore, we penderfyniadau anodd ar ddylunio a chostau. must be sure that, when we make this Gan hynny, rhaid inni sicrhau, pan wnawn y decision this afternoon, we have done our penderfyniad hwn y prynhawn yma, inni level best to get that right. Having sat with wneud ein gorau glas i gael hynny’n iawn. A the project steering group and the team that minnau wedi eistedd gyda grŵp llywio’r have been working on this project, I have prosiect a’r tîm a fu’n gweithio ar y prosiect witnessed the work that they have carried out hwn, gwelais y gwaith a gyflawnasant dros y over the last few days, and I know that they dyddiau diwethaf, a gwn eu bod wedi have done their level best to get it right. gwneud eu gorau glas i’w gael yn iawn.

This is an interesting situation for me because Mae’r sefyllfa hon yn un ddiddorol i mi gan y I was a member of the Cardiff planning bûm yn aelod o bwyllgor cynllunio Caerdydd committee when plans for our current pan ddaeth cynlluniau ar gyfer ein hadeilad building came before it. If I remember presennol ger ei fron. Os cofiaf yn iawn, correctly, we took six months to give cymerasom chwe mis i roi caniatád ar gyfer permission for that building, as the view yr adeilad hwnnw, gan mai’r farn ar draws y across the political parties was that it was not pleidiau gwleidyddol oedd nad oedd yn a good enough building. I was also a member adeilad digon da. Yr oeddwn hefyd yn aelod of the Cardiff council planning committee o bwyllgor cynllunio cyngor Caerdydd pan when the original Richard Rogers Partnership gyflwynwyd cynllun gwreiddiol Partneriaeth design was submitted. Therefore, I have Richard Rogers. Felly, yr wyf yn dilyn y followed this project over several years, and prosiect hwn ers rhai blynyddoedd, a bu’n it has been part and parcel of my life. I never rhan annatod o’m bywyd. Ni chredais erioed, thought, when sitting on that planning wrth eistedd ar y pwyllgor cynllunio hwnnw, committee, that I would be standing here y byddwn yn sefyll yma’n awr—mae bywyd now—life is strange. However, I have seen yn rhyfedd. Fodd bynnag, gwelais bobl yn people trying to grapple honestly and ceisio ymdrin yn onest ac yn ddiffuant â’r sincerely with these difficult choices and dewisiadau a’r penderfyniadau anodd hyn. decisions. That has been reflected in the Adlewyrchwyd hynny yn y cyfraniadau contributions today. heddiw.

On Mike German’s point, we must Ynghylch y pwynt a wnaeth Mike German, acknowledge that icon buildings have a real rhaid inni gydnabod bod gwerth economaidd economic value. We should not forget that. gwirioneddol i adeiladau sy’n eiconau. Ni Look at the model and consider the ddylem anghofio hynny. Edrychwch ar y

97 01/07/2003 concentration of resources that will go into model ac ystyriwch yr adnoddau a gaiff eu the building. Consider how Wales has been crynhoi yn yr adeilad hwnnw. Ystyriwch y projected as a result of developments such as ddelwedd o Gymru a gyflewyd o ganlyniad i the Millennium Stadium. People in Wales, ddatblygiadau fel Stadiwm y Mileniwm. Mae not just in Cardiff, are proud of that building. pobl yng Nghymru, ac nid yng Nghaerdydd We understand that this is not only a building yn unig, yn falch o’r adeilad hwnnw. for ourselves; it is a building for economic Deallwn nad adeilad i ni’n unig yw hwn; regeneration, and for many years it will be a mae’n adeilad ar gyfer adfywio economaidd, symbol of Wales’s new democracy. ac am flynyddoedd lawer bydd yn symbol o ddemocratiaeth newydd Cymru.

On Ieuan’s points about disabled access, I Ynghylch y pwyntiau a wnaeth Ieuan am have carefully considered the relevant papers fynediad i’r anabl, yr wyf wedi ystyried y and have spoken to Edwina and to the other papurau perthnasol yn ofalus ac wedi siarad people involved, and I can trace the ag Edwina a’r rhai eraill sy’n ymwneud â development of this building and the way in hyn, a gallaf olrhain datblygiad yr adeilad which the plans have changed. I saw the hwn a’r modd y newidiwyd y cynlluniau. original design, which gave little Gwelais y dyluniad gwreiddiol, nad oedd yn consideration to accessibility, and I have seen rhoi fawr o ystyriaeth i hygyrchedd, a gwelais how people have tried to overcome those sut y mae pobl wedi ceisio goresgyn yr difficulties to ensure that we respect issues anawsterau hynny er mwyn sicrhau ein bod surrounding people’s abilities. Over £1 yn parchu materion sy’n ymwneud ag million has been added to the cost—rightly in anableddau pobl. Ychwanegwyd mwy nag £1 my opinion—to ensure that many, if not filiwn at y gost—yn briodol, yn fy marn i—i most, of the range of features that we would sicrhau bod llawer, os nad y cyfan, o’r want to deal with disability access issues, amrediad o nodweddion y dymunem eu cael i have been included. ddelio â materion mynediad i’r anabl, wedi’u cynnwys.

5.30 p.m.

The Presiding Officer: Order. We are out of Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae’r amser ar gyfer y time for this debate. ddadl hon wedi dod i ben.

Sue Essex: Okay. Could I mention a few Sue Essex: O’r gorau. A gaf sôn am ychydig things quickly— o bethau’n gyflym—

The Presiding Officer: Order. I am afraid Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae arnaf ofn na that you cannot. We are out of time for this chewch. Mae’r amser ar gyfer y ddadl hon debate. Please conclude with two sentences. wedi dod i ben. Terfynwch â dwy frawddeg, os gwelwch yn dda.

Sue Essex: Okay. To sum up, we have Sue Essex: O’r gorau. I grynhoi, yr ydym responded confidently to the issue of disabled wedi ymateb yn hyderus i fater mynediad i’r access, and we can hold our heads high on anabl, a gallwn ddal ein pennau’n uchel ar sustainable development. Members will be fater datblygu cynaliadwy. Bydd Aelodau’n proud to have made this difficult decision on falch o fod wedi gwneud y penderfyniad the building today. Finally, looking back at anodd ar yr adeilad heddiw. Yn olaf, gan history, we must be grateful for previous edrych yn ôl ar hanes, rhaid inni fod yn generations who made difficult decisions. We ddiolchgar i’r cenedlaethau a’n blaenorodd a are in such a situation today—I hope that wnaeth benderfyniadau anodd. Yr ydym ni Members will make the right decision. mewn sefyllfa o’r fath heddiw—gobeithiaf y bydd Aelodau’n gwneud y penderfyniad iawn.

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Gwelliant 1: O blaid 11, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 47. Amendment 1: For 11, Abstain 0, Against 47.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Bourne, Nick Andrews, Leighton Cairns, Alun Barrett, Lorraine Davies, David Bates, Mick Davies, Glyn Black, Peter Francis, Lisa Burnham, Eleanor Graham, William Butler, Rosemary Isherwood, Mark Chapman, Christine Jones, Laura Anne Cuthbert, Jeff Melding, David Davidson, Jane Morgan, Jonathan Davies, Andrew Williams, Brynle Davies, Janet Davies, Jocelyn Dunwoody-Kneafsey, Tamsin Essex, Sue German, Michael Gibbons, Brian Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Gwyther, Christine Hart, Edwina Hutt, Jane Idris Jones, Denise James, Irene Jones, Ann Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Ieuan Wyn Law, Peter Lewis, Huw Lloyd, David Lloyd, Val Marek, John Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Rhodri Neagle, Lynne Pugh, Alun Randerson, Jenny Ryder, Janet Sargeant, Carl Sinclair, Karen Thomas, Catherine Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment rejected.

Gwelliant 2: O blaid 12, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 46. Amendment 2: For 12, Abstain 0, Against 46.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Bourne, Nick Andrews, Leighton Cairns, Alun Barrett, Lorraine

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Davies, David Bates, Mick Davies, Glyn Black, Peter Francis, Lisa Burnham, Eleanor Graham, William Butler, Rosemary Isherwood, Mark Chapman, Christine Jones, Laura Anne Cuthbert, Jeff Marek, John Davidson, Jane Melding, David Davies, Andrew Morgan, Jonathan Davies, Janet Williams, Brynle Davies, Jocelyn Dunwoody-Kneafsey, Tamsin Essex, Sue German, Michael Gibbons, Brian Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Gwyther, Christine Hart, Edwina Hutt, Jane Idris Jones, Denise James, Irene Jones, Ann Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Ieuan Wyn Law, Peter Lewis, Huw Lloyd, David Lloyd, Val Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Rhodri Neagle, Lynne Pugh, Alun Randerson, Jenny Ryder, Janet Sargeant, Carl Sinclair, Karen Thomas, Catherine Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment rejected.

Gwelliant 3: O blaid 11, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 47. Amendment 3: For 11, Abstain 0, Against 47.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Bourne, Nick Andrews, Leighton Cairns, Alun Barrett, Lorraine Davies, David Bates, Mick Davies, Glyn Black, Peter Francis, Lisa Burnham, Eleanor Graham, William Butler, Rosemary Isherwood, Mark Chapman, Christine Jones, Laura Anne Cuthbert, Jeff Melding, David Davidson, Jane Morgan, Jonathan Davies, Andrew Williams, Brynle Davies, Janet Davies, Jocelyn

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Dunwoody-Kneafsey, Tamsin Essex, Sue German, Michael Gibbons, Brian Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Gwyther, Christine Hart, Edwina Hutt, Jane Idris Jones, Denise James, Irene Jones, Ann Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Ieuan Wyn Law, Peter Lewis, Huw Lloyd, David Lloyd, Val Marek, John Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Rhodri Neagle, Lynne Pugh, Alun Randerson, Jenny Ryder, Janet Sargeant, Carl Sinclair, Karen Thomas, Catherine Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment rejected.

Cynnig (NDM1518): O blaid 46, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 12. Motion (NDM1518): For 46, Abstain 0, Against 12.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Bourne, Nick Barrett, Lorraine Cairns, Alun Bates, Mick Davies, David Black, Peter Davies, Glyn Burnham, Eleanor Francis, Lisa Butler, Rosemary Graham, William Chapman, Christine Isherwood, Mark Cuthbert, Jeff Jones, Laura Anne Davidson, Jane Law, Peter Davies, Andrew Melding, David Davies, Janet Morgan, Jonathan Davies, Jocelyn Williams, Brynle Dunwoody-Kneafsey, Tamsin Essex, Sue German, Michael Gibbons, Brian Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Gwyther, Christine Hart, Edwina Hutt, Jane

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Idris Jones, Denise James, Irene Jones, Ann Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Lloyd, David Lloyd, Val Marek, John Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Rhodri Neagle, Lynne Pugh, Alun Randerson, Jenny Ryder, Janet Sargeant, Carl Sinclair, Karen Thomas, Catherine Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion carried.

Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion

Jonathan Morgan: I propose that Jonathan Morgan: Cynigiaf fod the National Assembly, under Standing Order Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, o dan Reol No. 6.10, agrees to postpone the minority Sefydlog Rhif 6.10, yn cytuno i ohirio’r ddadl party debate until sometime in September. plaid leiafrifol hyd ryw ddyddiad ym mis Medi.

Cynnig: O blaid 48, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Motion: For 48, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Barrett, Lorraine Bates, Mick Bourne, Nick Burnham, Eleanor Butler, Rosemary Cairns, Alun Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davidson, Jane Davies, Andrew Davies, David Davies, Glyn Davies, Janet Essex, Sue Francis, Lisa German, Michael Graham, William Gregory, Janice

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Griffiths, John Gibbons, Brian Hart, Edwina Hutt, Jane James, Irene Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Laura Anne Lewis, Huw Lloyd, Val Marek, John Melding, David Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Jonathan Morgan, Rhodri Pugh, Alun Randerson, Jenny Ryder, Janet Sargeant, Carl Sinclair, Karen Thomas, Catherine Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Williams, Brynle Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion carried.

Y Llywydd: Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw The Presiding Officer: That brings today’s i ben. proceedings to a close.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.34 p.m. The meeting ended at 5.34 p.m.

Aelodau a’u Pleidiau Members and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour) Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour) Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour) Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour) Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour) Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour) Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour) Davies, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Glyn (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Dunwoody-Kneafsey, Tamsin (Llafur - Labour) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Essex, Sue (Llafur – Labour) Francis, Lisa (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives)

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Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour) Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour) Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour) Gwyther, Christine (Llafur – Labour) Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour) Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour) Idris Jones, Denise (Llafur – Labour) Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) James, Irene (Llafur – Labour) Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour) Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour) Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Laura Anne (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Law, Peter (Llafur – Labour) Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour) Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour) Marek, John (Annibynnol – Independent) Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour) Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour) Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour) Pugh, Alun (Llafur – Labour) Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour) Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour) Thomas, Catherine (Llafur – Labour) Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour) Thomas, Owen John (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymru – Welsh Conservatives) Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

104