W M U Centennial Oral History Collection: Oral histories of Western Michigan University alu mni, f a c ult y, st a ff, and friends collected 1987-2003 for the W M U Centenni al i n 2 0 0 3. T his c oll e cti o n is p art of t h e l ar g er di git al c oll e cti o n, Or al Hist ori es at Western Michigan University, hosted by W M U Librari es.

Intervie wee: Phelan, Michael

Intervie wer: Carlson, Le wis H.

D ate(s): 1 9 8 9- 1 1- 0 3

L o c ati o n: Kala mazoo ( Mich.)

Please n ote: These recordings and transcriptions, w hic h have preserve d i n t heir ori gi nal u naltere d state, often represent student work and may contain inaccuracies an d ty pogra phical errors.

Preferre d citati o n: Oral history intervie w with Michael Phelan, Nove mber 3, 1 9 8 9, b y L e wis H. C arls o n p a g e #, W M U Centennial Oral History Collection, Western Mic hi g a n U ni v ersit y Ar c hi v es. O nli n e: htt p:// ... ( a c c ess e d [ d at e]).

Co pyright © 2019 Western Michigan University, Kala m az o o, Mi c hi g a n. All ri g hts r es er v e d. T h e di git al v ersi o n is a v ail a bl e f or e d u c ati o n al us e u n d er ‘F air Us e’ g ui d eli n es. F or a d diti o n al p er missi o n a n d further infor mation contact the W M U Archives, Western Michigan University, Kala mazoo, MI 49008: w mich.edu/library/contact

Western Michigan University

Western Michigan University Archives, Charles C. an d Lynn L. Zhang Legacy Collections Center, 1650 Oakland Drive, Kala mazoo, MI 49008-5307. (269) 3 8 7- 8 4 9 0 TABLE OF TAPE CONTENTS Tape number: 1 Session Length: 70 minutes Narrator: Michael Phelan-- Radical at Western, late '60's, early '70's.

Address: Date of Interview: 3 November 1989 Place: Kalamazoo, MI Interviewer: Lewts Carlson -r,.,_rw:\"'. :::?'. II,..• ..._ 71..,...... , CONTENTS: Min. Counter 005 Background/schooling in Monroe MI.

8 020 Ferris College--polltlcal awakening--Father Gus-- Victor (Spat~ 12 095 Transfer to Western Michigan Untverstty--flrst lmpression--intro to hippie community

15 162 Connection With underground newspapers 190 The Western Herald

202 Contrast of Western President, James Miller, to Ferris President, Victor Spat&ft'.

21 249 Contents of underground paper the Patrtot. 1 266 Difference between hippie and radical papers. 282 Hipple opinion of alcohol.

25 297 SDS chapter at Western--Ed Jacques. 329 Food Co-ops--foundtng and function. 30 367 Pearlman, "Western's only communist." and 1 SDS meetings. 394 Radicals at Western--Cathollcs and Jews

32 410 Demonstrations--•teaching" --start of SDS Min. Counter

34 430 "Big Gun" SDS regional organizers associated with Westem--Tom Hayden----Bill / Ayers--Dlana Oughton. 514 How SOS became an official organization on campus--Phelan as President of SOS.

40 542 Contact with FBI agent Jack Blake 619 Violence on campus--fire bombing of ROTC 637 Media coverage of demonstrations.

46 658 Roger Messer--personality--role on campus-- I comparison to Abbey Hoffman. END OF SIDE ONE 689 Messer (cont)

49 708 Take over of the union--President Mlller--George McKinsey--Pollce action.

58 810 Disruption of classes--frustration at lack of control. 840 Reaction to Kent State--occupation of tent city-- warrents. 861 Stze ofSDS--recruitment from the dorms

876 National convention of SOS-- Split into factions. 65 885 Progressive Labor faction--their tediousness. The Weathermen and Violence.

917 Diana Oughton's reaction to proposed Violence-- / Phelan's reaction. Oughton·s death in Town House bombing.

68 938 Mobilization at Washington. Nbcon talking football to radicals. 70 END OF TAPE Interview With: Michael Phelan Date of Interview: 3 November 1989

Interviewer: Lewis H. Carlson Transcriber: JoAnne Thomas

Carlson: You grew up in Monroe and went through the Monroe Catholic schools? Phelan: Yes. St. Mary's parochial grade school, taught by nuns, and then an all-boys high school, Monroe Catholic Central, taught by brothers, for four years.

Carlson: So you got a good solid education. You were a serious student? Phelan Well, moderately. C+. B-.

Carlson: What made you decide to go to Ferris?

Phelao· It was the only school I could get into.

Carlson: You could have gone to Western. Phelan: Actually, I didn't want to go to school. I wanted to Join the navy. I was tired of school. I didn't really want to go to school. My father

wanted me to be the first Phelan to graduate from college. So I more or less got sentenced to college. I didn't want to go. Since he

was picking, he picked Ferris, because It was b usiness administration.

Carlson: What did your father do? Phelan He was a credit manager for (Norado?) Equipment.

Carlson: Did he encouraged you to go to Ferris? Phelan: More than encouraged. I d.ldn't really have a choice in the matter. I was going to Ferris. He paid for it and he picked my curriculum 2

Phelan: and he told me my future would be this. Basically, this Is what I

should do, and I went along with It.

Carlaon: You were a good, obedient son.

Phelan: Yeah, pretty m uch, more or less.

Carlaon: You were at Ferris for two years?

Phelan: Two years.

Carlson: What was It like at Ferris? This was 1966?

Phelan: '66. It was really eye opening. It was wonderful. I can remember

still letters that I had written home in 1966. I was a Goldwater

supporter in '64; I should regress a little bit. We were a hard core

Republican Catholic family. I remember writing home in 1966, a letter to my folks. It was the off-year elections and the Republicans

had picked up a lot of seats in '66 and saying, "That was good, things were looking good." I remember that. specifically. Carlaon: You were a Goldwater supporter from your family? Did the church and the school ever promote Goldwater? Phelan: No, I don't think they did. They promoted more political debate. I did have a good... The Catholics were a little more aware of things.

Carlson: The Catholic church, nationally. for the most part, supported the

war in Vletnam.

Phelan: Right. I can remember Jesuit, or priests. now that you mention It, I can remember brothers coming and talking about Vietnam. Priests, or like Father (Caldwin?) types, that's not the name... the other guy... who was the guy who.. Tom Dooley or one of those Catholic

heroes, very anti... I think It was Tom Dooley,

Carlson: Yeah, Tom Dooley was the first one to go down, a nd then Cardinal Spellman and so-forth. 3

Phelan: Right. We bad some priests that had been over there, who were

telling the horrors of communism, and how we had supported it.

Carlson: And of course the leaders of North Vietnam who came and took over for the government were probably... back to Ferris ...

Phelan: It was eye opening. I was in a bubble In high school. I mean, I was small for my age, I was kind of stilted, Just going to an all boys high school makes one stilted, even if you are a real macho kind of guy, and I wasn't. So I was shy, I was kind of bookish, although not really that bookish, very naive, exceedingly naive. Ferris was very eye opening. I was exposed to racism for the first time. I

hadn't really had any feelings about it because I didn't know any Blacks. Carlson: Monroe was a good white, middle class..

Phelan: Yeah. I don't even remember being aware of it... . abstractly .... And then I started for the first time, I guess it comes from maturing, making your own decisions, really thinking about the war, and the

history and the more things I read about it... For the first time

confronting, or being con.fronted with .... life. Facts I discovered were not what I had been led to believe, not what my parents. ..

Carlson: Was it from reading, was It from colleagues or other students ..

Phelan: It was from everything. It was from some professors... Carlson: How about music?

Phelan: Yeah, it was from music, it was from everything, although I didn't really get into that until I got to Western. . .. Although, there was music. My father decided It would be a good Idea for me to Join a fraternity. He said, "These w1ll make good business 4

Phelen: connections for later on." So he Joined me to this Catholic Fratemlcy, basically.

Carlson: A Catholic fraternity? Phelan: Yes, Phi Kappa Theta at Fems.

Carlson: No Protestants in it? Phelan: Well, we had a couple, but It was essentially a Catholic fraterntcy. One of the Ironies of my life, with my father and I, that he consistently pushed me down what he perceived as the right road. But there were influences in that right road... some of the most radical professors I ever had were some of the brothers in high school. And this particular advtsor of the Catholic fraternlcy was a radical priest. Father Gus...

Carlson: Oh Father Gus! Oh my goodness, yes.

Phelan: ... in (Kona?), and I can remember going to his rectory and listening to Simon and Garfunkle and Peter. Paul and Mary, and these were

really liberal "lets all be happy" peace lovtng types, not radical at all,

Carlson: But they were some of the first songs that questioned the war. Phelan: Yes. And not Just questioned the war, but how are we livtng? What are we doing here? I was like most kids, you don't think of that. It

was everything. In those times It was constant bombardment of sensory input. That's the only way I can describe It. Everything I read, the news, everyone knows how the news was filled With the war every night. The music I listened to, the people I talked to. And It seemed to me a time to not remain neutral. Things were happening, things were afoot, and you had to get on one side or another. 5

Carlson: At Ferris would you say most of the students were this politically aware?

Phelan: Most of them ignored it. I can remember vividly, in the first, it wasn't even a demonstration, .... I think it was the late spring of '67 when the SOS took over Columbia, I'm not sure of the dates, but you can check it. All I remember was that Mark Rudd and company. SDS and people had taken over Columbia. (Grace and Kirk's office?) and I was still at Ferris. Bill Kinsey and some people, we were putting together an underground paper called the Harbinger, just a mimeographed sheet, just kind of alternative, really liberal, liberal vtews. Nothing radical. There was some kind of, I don't want to say demonstration, some kind of gathering where (Victor Spattle?) showed up, President of Ferris. And I got the courage to ask him, something to the effect of, I don't remember my exact words, something to the effect of, ·wen, here

we've seen these students in Columbia, New York, that are demonstrating for their rtghts. for some changes and for some meaning in their lives. What do you think about this? What relevance does It have for Ferris?" I'll never forget hJs answer, "Well there are a lot of damn fools everywhere.· And the students applauded him.(Jaughs)

Carlson: So after a couple of years at Ferris, what made you decide to come down to Western?

Phelan: I had come under the spell of Lewis Carlson, an historian at Fems

who was coming to Western. And I was thinking of getting Into history and you said "There Is no future in history at Ferris, Come 6

Phelan: with me to Western.• And lt seemed all right. I still dtdn't have that good of grades, but I could get in.

Carlson; What are your first memories of Western? The Fall of '68.

Phelan: Actually, It was in the summer of '68. I started 1n the Fall, but I

moved here 1n the sum.mer.

Carlson; Did Michael (Malloy?) come with you?

Phelan: No, he came either after. or before, or... Carlson; Not before.

Phelan: He came after then. He did. He came after and he moved in with me. After. because we moved into Grand Avenue together.

Carlson: You never lived 1n the dorm here.

Phelan: Yes, I did I lived 1n Hoekje Hall. One year.

Carlson: Tell me about the climate on campus. Phelan: It appeared to be, I remember my first Impression, you asked about. was coming up Michigan Ave towards Western. And as you turned ... They turned out to be K college housing, but I didn't know that at the time, those red shingled housing, and there was a Eugene McCarthy bumper sticker on the wall and by that time 1 was a McCarthy supporter. so I was favorably Impressed, even

though It later turned out to be K college. It appeared to be Western. and I found there to be a small core of hard core Interesting people at Western.

Carlson: Graduate students? Phelan: No. Just a whole conglomerate of people. The hippie community, as

it turned out. 7

Carlson: There was a hippie community that hung out at the union? Tell me about hanging out at the union. People still hang out at the union, but It looks like a Mall. Phelan: It is a Mall. It's even called Campus Mall, or something Mall. I remember saying at the time that I majored in Union, because for every hour I spent in class, I spent three in the union. We used to skip many a class drinking un.lon coffee and Just discussing this or that.

Carlson: Of course you worked at the union. Phelan: Yup. I was a busboy, the grill keeper, whatever. The clean up guy.

Carlson; So that was the meeting place for the so called radicals. Phelan: Yes. We had a certain part of the union that we called the ghetto. It was one far corner, and the Blacks sat in one section of the ghetto, and the white radicals, or freaks as we called ourselves, sat In the other section, but It was well away from everybody else. You had to be slightly bent to sit back there. It was known, even people who would come in for the first time could sense, "This Is where I

should sit. or here.· It was quite distinct. Interesting.

Carlson: There was no integration between Blacks and Whites, of course, at that time?

Phelan: Minor. Minimal. Minimal. Carlson; Uneasy respect? Phelan: More outcasts together. Certain similartties, in there was a lot of drug use, and music. Which would be carryovers more than any political afflnity. 8

Carlson: So develop what was going on. Take the McCarthy campaign. That

was the only political campaign I was ever involved In. I vowed I would never work knocking on doors ... Phelan: I still have a "Clean For Gene" button. It was very disappointing It propelled me. This was a little later, but I remember getting my last

hair cut for about six years. I was In the chair while we were watching Chicago demonstrations, the police riots. And this barber ls grabbing my head as he Is cutting, "Good! Give It to them!" And all these comments and he's slicing... And two comments were going through my head simultaneously: one was how furious I was, at what I was witnessing on the screen. and the other was that this was my last haircut.

Carlson: A barber In the union? Phelan: No. this was in Monroe. It was August of '68 and I was home for the summer.

Carlson: I suppose this made things bad at home. Phelan: It was terrible. My father was very Republican. very anti- everything I was into. Exceedly so.

Carlson: Back to Western. Tell me more about the organization, you sat In the union. but there had to be some sort of organization. Phelan: We had, like I said. started a one page mimeographed newspaper at Ferris, the Harbin~er. When I got here I was still kind of involved in that. There was an underground paper at Western called ...... The Patriot came later. ... Within a matter of months. In any event... Carlson: Who was putting these out? 9

Phelan: It was put out by around 15 older hard core radical people, Ed Brooks was one of them, Ed Jacques was one of them, although he wasn't involved With the paper. ... Ed Humphries.

Carlson: Roger (Messer?)?

Phelan: Roger Messer came much later. Roger Messer came a couple of years later.

Carlson: This was in your first year here. The Patriot I remember, I don't remember the before one. It was an alternative to the Western Herald?

Phelan: Yes. The forerunner to the Patriot got in some trouble for printing a penis and testicles on Agnew, I think, in one lssue and got in some trouble.

Carlson: You didn't have faculty advisors... Phelan: No. But lt was still distributed at Western, and they had some say,

over if they could put it out, and they ran into some flack, I don't remeber exactly. I can't tell you exactly because that was before I

got here. Then shortly, Within a matter of months. it became the Patriot. It was called something.... I have some issues somewhere, I'll come up With the name. I'll have to dig them up.

Carlson: You have issues of the Patriot? I want that on tape. Phelan: Yes. I do have. Somewhere. Carlson: Old you start Writing for the Patriot. Phelan: I didn't exactly start to wrlte for it. I started hanging out With those people. I probably contributed a few things, I'm somewhat of a

cartoonist. I remember I did some cartoons for them definitely.

Carlson: Did you do any cartooning for the Herald? Or any work for the Herald? 10

Phelan: I may have done one or two. I don't think I did. I have them all somewhere. I don't really, don't think I did. I definitely did for the Patriot

Carlson: Do you remember what the Western Herald was like at that time? Phelan: It would go though, It was veiy communion like. It depended who the editor was. One month It could be veiy middle of the road,

conservative. and then the next term It could be fairly Uberal- radlcal. Frank Forrest and some people, student president. He had been elected student body president and he was a member, president, of Sigma Alpha fratemlty, or Sigma Epsilon fraternity. and over the spring when he was elected he was real frat, straight, then over that summer he radicalized. He came back wearing wire rim glasses. And the people who had elected him felt he was not quite who they had elected. Never-the-less, he had been elected. He kind of brought in a lot of people with him. Bob Luke was editor of the Herald at that time. Pretty liberal, started to question the war, and starting to push opinion.

Carlson: And to the credit of the administration. or perhaps we should say President Miller et al. He rated more than say, Victor (Spatoff?J Phelan: Oh , there is no comparison.

Carlson: I think that's important because there was a climate there where even If he disagreed with you, in some, to a certain extent, encouraged.you .. Phelan: Yes, Victor Spatoff was the epitome of a corporate president. He could have been president of General Motors or Uni-Royal or

something. He was that mentality. That "this ls what we want" .. With Chester Sinclair as housing director roaming the halls 11

Phelan: separating interracial couples and then writing off to their parent. But James Miller was truly an intellectual, and he was, as you said, even If he didn't agree with you, you could see a gleam in hts eye that at least hlS students were right up there With everybody else.

Carlson: He was proud of that. He spoke at Ferris, I don't know If you remember, I came down there, he spoke about the black student take-over at Western, and how to handle thlS. You don't panic, you l!Sten and you l!Sten and you try to work things out together and not be intimidated and that was so impressive, that I Just looked up to him tremendously. Of course Spatoff (unclear) with black students and white students...

Phelan: I definitely lucked out... having James Miller sign my diploma. He was truly, ... especlally what came later. There was no compartson.

Carlson: Go ahead wtth the orgaruzation.

Phelan: It was not an organization, that's what was the best. It was quite literally the most interesting collection of individuals I have ever encountered.

Carlson: Generalize on them, try to generalize, and give specific examples.

Phelan: They were Just simply fascinating, eccentric characters.

Carlson: A little bit older?

Phelan: Some of them were a little bit older than me. Some of them were students, some of them weren't even really students, they had been students, partial students. students from other universities, Just kind of a like bent. They were. ..well, gosh, I don't know if I can even come up With a uni.fy1ng characteristic.

Carlson: Well, did they have in common that they read a lot? 12

Phelan: Oh definately. They were vei:y aware, vei:y literate. Carlson: Not faddish, you know what I'm getting at. Phelan Yes. And that's why I was somewhat colored. because I came in

when they were truly unique intellectuals, not to call myself intellectual, but this crowd was, truly. Then a couple years later, the fadists came along and I wasn't quite able to see through them, because my first encounter with these kind of people they had been the true genuine article. Couple years later they were more of the fadists. But, they were left of center, heading to the radical aspect, ... although there were some ultra-conservative types. You know how political things tend to meet, its kind of a circle. The ultra-radical have more in common with the ultra-liberals than Just liberals or conservatives. Carlson: At that point, because you were not organized, no one in the administration hassled you, no Deans or...

Phelan: I won't exactly say that, there had been some discussion about this paper. The paper was pushing some fairly extreme Views. Four letter words were rampant in the paper. We had a regular column called "Dope a Scope· which was a supermarket of the dope that was around that particular week. They were saying "Stay away

from this" or "This ls good, this is bad", or "This 1s this price: of

course all highly illegal. Kind of things that would be ln the Anarchist Cookbook type of magazines now. Just general counter- culture tips. Reprints from other, .. there was an underground wire press, NLS, National Liberation Services, that was kind of a left wing UP or AP news wire, they would reproduce a lot of those 13

Phelan: things that would appear in the Berkley (Barb?) and bigger publications...

Carlson.: I wonder who has a collection of some of those.. (unclear)

Phelan: I have some of those upstairs. There was the Oracle ... You have to be careful when you get into underground papers, because there are two kinds of underground papers, There were the so-called radical papers and there were the hippie papers. Like the San Francisco Oracle, hippie papers I would call them. More apolitical, more Ginsberg. LSD. consciousness expansion. mind and free food feasts, whatever, big gathering of tribes, where as ours was more the radical, reproducing articles about Viet Nam, or local politics.

more political, as opposed to cultural distinction.

Carlson: (unclear) tell a little bit more than what (unclear)

Phelan: They were Just the most Interesting collection of people I had ever met. You'd meet them in the union. Some of them were married, some had kids, they were the quote "hippies", they looked like hippies, they had the longer hair. I didn't know what "hippies" was, but that's as good as term as any. Some of them had longer hair, had beards.

Carlson: Tell me something else about the culture that relates to this. In the 1950's beer was our drink, socializing instrument. No one had ever heard of dope in the 1950's. You came along In anarchistic times In the which kinds of other things showed up. Alcohol was not as Important to these people, was it?

Phelan: No. In fact alcohol was considered a deadening type drug. We were Into mind expansion. Basically Marijuana and LSD were the drugs of choice. There would be some people who would get Into speed, 14

Phelan: amphetam.tnes, and downers but those were generally frowned upon.

Carlson: This was the age of LSD, Timothy O'Leary, gurus.

Phelan: Well not gurus. Although I was radical two years before I ever did a drug. I was political for two years before I ever smoked marijuana. I didn't even really drink beer. I Just stayed away. I was an abstainer. I didn't really.. .

Carlson: How did the SOS chapter get started? Phelan: I believe Ed Jacques was the founder. His father was a big official 1n the Bell Telephone Company. Qu.ite well known, apparently in local circles, business. Ed ls a real tragic case. He may have died 1n the state hospital, he was committed there for quite some time.

Carlson: From a drug overdose?

Phelan: Possibly drugs. and Just.... if anyone was a guru, I don't like that

word. I've always avoided it, and it wasn't really the case in Kalamazoo, we had people coming in from different areas and they would say, "Kalamazoo Is differen t. It's kind of like an Ann Arbor. Like San Francisco. There ls really a collection of tn1e independent thinkers and there ls no leader and that's what we like abou t lt. •

In other areas, you know.... But lf there was a leader, Ed Jacques comes closest to being that, and being the guru , and being fully

aware of his status as the guru.

Carlson: Had he been a student? Phelan: Yeah. r think he had been. He wasn't at the time that r was there. He lived down the street, Down by where the Dairy Queen is. one

of those streets. He would Just hold forth in the union, intellectual discussions. Whether it was DOW chemical, and the immoral.ity of 15

Phelan: that. or how it all relates to racism, or the military /industrial complex., he'd Just be talking and sound interesting and people'd

listen. or get In on it, add to the discussion, or whatever. And sometimes if the union closed we'd wander on down to his house. and smoke...

Carlson: How did he support himself?

Phelan: I'm not truly certain. A lot of people back then, you didn't really know how they supported themselves. For one thing. people lived exceedingly cheaply back then. Exceedingly cheaply. A house would rent for say $160, an entire house, and then six or eight

people would move into it so each rent would be thirty or forty

dollars, and if someone didn't have it that month, someone else would come up with it. That's when the food co-op got started. People were experimenting with different foods.

Carlson: Tell us about that.

Phelan: Well, one of my roommates started It. Cliff {Parquet? Parke?) was one of the very first ones who started a food co-op at our house on Cedar street. 430 W Cedar.

Canson: That's where the food co-ops got started. 420 W. Cedar?

Phelan: Well, that's the second place. It started, actually, somewhere around Douglas Ave., in a house on Douglas. In fact when I moved into the house. I moved into the food co-op house. It was there before I got there. Our whole kitchen was bins of rice and peanut butter.

Carlson: How did it function?

Phelan: I'm not excactly sure how it functioned. Cliff and a couple of other

people would buy bulk food. and Just pour it in our bins. We had 16

Phelan: bags and cardboard containers in our kitchen. People would come

and buy it in little quantities, and he'd sell it for, basically, what he paid for it.

Carlson: Primarily what?

Phelan: Primarily brown rtce and peanut butter. I hate to sound like the old cliche, but it was brown rice and peanut butter. Most of the hippies were experimenting with vegetarianism. I wasn't vegetarianism, and I wasn't really a hippie, but they were into all the things that people are into now. They were into health, and t:Iying to heal their minds as well as their bodies.

Carlson: Was Lou (Junkard?) involved in th!S at all? Phelan: Yes. Everybody. See again. when you mention specU'ics, one neat thing at Kalamazoo. were all these little groups of people off doing their own little thing, as they say, entirely independent of other people, and without any interaction, and simultaneously, but independent. so I'm not sure. I know the name, but I personally don't.... The same thing with what's his name, Maynard (Kauffman?) .. and your friend, with the beard, the Soclolog!St, or Education professor.

Carlson: (unclear)

Phelan: Yeah. but this guy was...

Carlson: Oh..... (Lamper?)?

Phelan: Linda (Lamper?) was the ...

Carlson: That was his Wife, or daughter. ..

Phelan: Daughter. She was the one who used to break up classes. Freddie

Pearlman. That's (unclear) He was a communist.

Carlson: Westem's only communist. 17

Phelan: He was truly tedius. Carlson: Did you know him?

Phelan: Sure. He would come to all the SDS meetings and he would just... "I'd like to speak to that!" Stand up and get off on this

ideological discussion, and nobody cared, you just wanted him to

shut up because he was very tedious. Carlson: He had been fired by that time.

Phelan: I think so, yes. Carlson: He got fired before I got here.

Phelan: Well. he was crazy. He was incredibly tedious. Carlson: A good doctrlnarlan.

Phelan: Oh, Incredible If anybody ever thought that SDS was communist inspired, all they had to do was listen to Freddie. (laughs)

Carlson: Was it primarily the hippie community that came and bought at the co-op.?

Phelan: Yeah. Carlson: Was there any Interchange With straights? Did straights hassle you? Were they curious? Were there crossovers?

Phelan: About the only interchange would be guys picking u p women. basically women co-eds, and bringing them Into the crowd. That kind of Interaction.

Carlson: Well that was very exciting I suppose.

Phelan: These are the dangerous guys, the "Wild One" kind of syndrome, Marlon Brando. Otherwise, ....Wh en I say straight, everyone didn't look like a hippie, and I don't even know what a hippie looked like.

We were not, It was not... Carlson: Stereotyped. 18

Phelan: ... very outlandish. It was hippie in the mind, people were off on a different bent. And I think I would have to say that only people

with different bents were hanging out in the ghetto, or the union. Whether they looked like hippies, or smoked dope, or whatever, It didn't matter. They did not fit Into America as a whole and they did not fit in by choice, not by outcast, by choice .

Carlson: Most of these kids had come out of middle class backgrounds, like yourself.

Phelan: Oh yeah. A predom.lnance of Jews and Catholics, we found. We took an informal pole, at the time. and It seemed the heaviest. most committed radicals were Jews and Catholics.

Carlson: Certainly with Jews across the country, but the fact that Catholics were...

Phelan: At the parochial schools, like I said, some of my radical teachers... they taught you to think, they taught you to at least not just accept things. Carlaon: That was an exeptton.

Phelan: And they also taught you that there is a posslbillty of a better life. One of my favorite comments, not comments. but James Simon Kunen wrote The Strawbeny Statement, a very humorous look on the sixties and he was truer than a lot of people realized. Davie

Crockett was our true .. , Walt Disney was the great radical. as was our great hero, Davie Crocket. "If something is right, you Just go ahead and do it, you don·t care If anyone else agreed." And we radicals felt that way.

Carlson: In the first year you were here It wasn't organized, as you say. Were there any demonstrations that first year? 19

Phelan: Oh yeah. There were always demonstrations, constant.

Carlson: How would you start a demonstration?

Phelan: Basically Ed and company, Ed Jacques, a few hard core organizers basically, and they would say• We should ...• Teaching was a btg term. Teaching was, what that meant was someone would get up, Ed primarily, would get up, primarily, and start speaking, withou t a microphone or anything, and ...

Carlson: Where?

Phelan: Wherever, in the union, out in front of the union, in the grass on the h ill. One was in front of the flagpole at the administration building. Basically just started haranguing the crowd, and people would stop and listen. or pass on.

Carlson: Nobody stopped you.

Phelan: No, no administration would. No. No one was ever stopped.

Carlson: Names were taken probably, occa sionally.

Phelan: Yeah. I think so...... Downtown demonstrations too.

Carlson: So when did the SDS chapter get started?

Phelan: Again It was the same kind of people. The term SDS, It was the

same people going to the same meetings. It had been something before SDS, and It was something afterwards. It was always the same people. I can't give you the speclflc. I don't know.

Carlson: No btgguns.

Phelan: We did have big guns. We had SDS regional organizers, we had some of the btggest guns ever, that were ever.

Carlson: Tom Hayden ever come here?

Phelan: He sure did. Mark Rudd... 20

Carlson: Mark Rudd, Hayden, and who was the other guy. the guy with the Polish name?

Phelan: Actually, the ones we met most were Bill (Ayers?), he was the regional organizer. He was one of the top ten most wanted on the FBI list for many years. came. was from Ann Arbor. He

had been a freedom rider. down south. A genius, a true genius. my

mentor. If there ever was someone who opened me up It was Bill Ayers. Former U ofM student, an absolute genius. Absolute gentous. Looked liked John Lennon. Carlson: Had he been part of the Port Huron Statement?

Phelan: Yes. If he had not been, he was Immediately afterward.

Carlson: There was a th.lrd guy In there and he had a Polish name. Out of the original...

Phelan: Well, I have Tom Hayden's book up there... But the main woman...

Carlson: OK, go ahead.

Phelan: The main woman, It was actually a woman, her name was Diana

Oughton and she was a very famous woman In the SOS history.

She was blown up In the New York townhouse explosion. She came from a very wealthy family. A movie bas been made about her. It's called Kathy, starring Stssy Spacek and It's excellent. Most movies

abou t that time period are lousy, but th1s Is very good, Kathy. Portrait Of A Revolutionary.•

Carlson: And she came to Kalamazoo a lot.

Phelan: She came to Kalamazoo a lot. And she was very, very Influential. In every aspect ofSDS's organization. Carlson: What dJd these regional organizers do?

1 0rlg1ne.l utlc was Ka:tbtJlnt It was renamed Thr RedlSN for V\deo rek-Nc. 21

Phelan: They were called regional travelers. Basically they just came and they tried to set up SDS chapters, or cells, or whatever. And I met them because I worked in the union. I pushed my barrel around, and I could get free food and things like that, and these guys came from Ann Arbor, and they were obvtously vagrant types. I would feed them. and I took some of them.. . .J took Bill, he stayed in my

dorm for a week, in Hoel

Phelan: I'm not sure. He eventually turned himself in. I don't know even if he served time. He was one of the last ones caught. Carlson: John Sinclair never came did he?

Phelan: No, John Sinclair wasn't really, .. he wasn't even SDS, he was a White Panther, and there agatn, John Sinclair, I would call John Sinclair more of a culture... He was a hippie. There was a difference between radicals and hippies at that time. John Sinclair was a street hippie staging Ginsberg-type cultural. LSD, universal love awakenings, White Panther Party kind of things In the streets. Carlson: The authorities thought he was dangerous enough to plant the Marijuana, and set him up for twenty years. Phelan: Oh sure. With the authorities, we are splitting hairs here. When It came to the au thorities, we both were equally as dangerous. But as

far as we were concerned, especially with Bill Ayers and some of the SDS people were pretty much anti-dope. They weren't Into dope. They would get high, well not exactly. Eventually they got 22

Phelan: purttanical. When SOS spilt Into three factions, then the purltanlcals all came out. They would smoke a little dope, but they didn't want to lose stght of the mission.

Carlson: Serious folks. Phelan. Absolutely sertous folks. Especially Bill Ayers. Carlson: What was Tom Hayden like. Did you meet Tom Hayden?

Phelan: I saw him, I didn't really meet him. He was here With Mark Rudd. I met Mark Rudd quite a bit. We picked him up at the airport. Took him to Freddie (Krohman·s? Krohn's?) house. He stayed at Freddie's house. He was all rtght. He wasn't nearly as impressive as Bill Ayers. No one was as impressive as Bill Ayers and Diana Oughton. They were two geniuses. Absolute.... The first time I ever heard of women's liberation was from Diana Oughten. It sounded so logical I couldn"t see any reason not to agree wtth It. Mark Rudd was kind of a little stuck on himself, a little arrogant. coming to a small town.

Carlson: So as SOS got organized here and you became a part of it, there wasn't such thing as a (unclear).

Phelan: No. but there was a definite crowd known as SOS. Once it became a specific organtzatton.. . We wanted to meet on campus, wanted to

hold meetings, whoever "they" were before it became SOS, they wanted to meet at Sangren. or In one of the lecture halls. very

convenient. In order to meet on campus, you had to be a legitimate organization. In order to be a legitimate organization, you had to have officers. You didn't really have to be any kind of an organization, or have dues, or anything, you could be the Future Farmers of Zimbabwe. but If you decided that I am the President 23

and you are the Vice-President, and you registered, took the time to stgn the papeiwork. you were an organization.

C&rlson: So you were an official organtzation. Phelan: Yes. SDS became an official organization. There was always a

student that had to be the top. top officers had to be studen ts. As I said. these are not people who are Into hierarchies. So you'd stgn for president...

Carlson: And you were the president. Phelan: At one time I was... l was the last one they officially had. because at this point no one left was a student, they were dropping out, and

I was still a student. I still had status, so I could be... they could still... because once you lost all your students, you could not be on campus anymore. You could not be a legttamate organtzation.

C&rlson: Was there any attempt to Infiltrate you people, to see if you were dangerous? Phelan: I assume there were. I don't know for a fact. I know we were always suspicious.

Carlson: because FBI agents were comJng on campus occasionally.

Phelan: The FBI came to my house a couple of times. Jack Blake did. He was the local agent. Do you want the whole story?

Carlson: Sure. Phelan: At this point I was pretty much a hard core hippie, and I was In a house full of hippies, the old food co-op house on Cedar street. I was up in my apartment, in my bedroom, smoking hash with a bunch of other hippies, and Cliff (Parquet?) founder of the food co- op, a genuine hippie, answered the door and here Is Jack Blake,

the FBI agent. Now It seems llke someone standing there in a suit 24

Phelan: with a briefcase should have clued him in, but he didn't. He let him In, and he led him all the way up to my bedroom. (laughs)

Carlson: He wanted to see you?

Phelan: Yeah. He wanted to see me... "Yeah, come on In, he's up here". Here we are, all smoking hash in the bedroom, and Jack Blake

walks In, says, "I'm from the FBI.· He was like a used car salesman. Very friendly. All my friends immediately Jetted out of there. I was high, and I was kind of scared, although SDS had talked abou t what you do if the FBI shows up, because they may very well. He said something like, "Well, I have some questions to ask. Do you want to come down to my office. or talk here?" I

thought, "It better be here, at least I'm In my own element.· He was

a real con artist. I tried not to tell him anything, but I'm sure I told him a lot. You can't talk with those guys. they are all experts. But

he came In, he looked around my apartment. made comments, they like to let on that they know more than they know. He said, ·1 see you're a history major.· He said his favorite historian was Churchill. (laughs)

Carlson: That should have been a clue.

Phelan: Yeah, well, the guy.. he looked like Rich Little. He looked Just like Rich Little, nice sideburns ... hipster....

Carlson: What did he want?

Phelan: He wanted to know, he sat down and wanted to know.... I don't really know what he wanted, actually. you never know what they want. He said he wanted to ask me a few questions. Wanted to know if I knew any of these people. He put out a book, a mu g shot book, about a hundred and fifty people. I knew about three or four 25

Phelan: of them. Actually, I knew more, I didn't know them, but I'd seen them, I knew that they knew that I knew some of them, so I couldn't say that I didn't know them, but I tried to pass through a couple that I didn't th.Ink they'd know and they didn't go back and ask me about these. But they wanted to know about Bill Ayers, of course, Diana Oughton, and another name that escapes me at the moment. Wanted to know If I'd seen them In a while. This was a year of so later, I guess. I hadn't seen them for a long time.

Carlson: ls that the only time he came to talk to you?

Phelan: I think he came twice, but he came over that same, It was within a matter of a month. two visits. The first one was fairly long, about an hour.

Carlson: Did he make any comment that you folks were smoking dope?

Phelan: No he didn't. Which actually got us even more paranoid, it was really kind of a paranoia. And then people said, "That means that they are not, that they are go1ng to have a Federal Investigation. he's not ... (long pause, some sort of lnteruptlon)

Then the consensus was among the hippies was that there 1s a Federal Investigation, and they take precedence over local police, and others said no, no, no, In fact you'll be safe from local prosecution, because he's watching you for political, and he won't

let you get busted. So it was a paranoid time, we Just didn't like any law enforcement.

Carlson: Was there any Violence at Western?

Phelan: What do you mean by Violence? I'm not sure what you mean.

Carlson: Well, the most Infamous Incident was the bombing of the lab. 26

Phelan: There was a slight, slight fire bombing, quote, u nquote ... of the ROTC bldg.

Carlson: When was that?

Phelan: That was about '69. I know who did It too.

Carlson: I don't (unclear)

Phelan: Well ...

Carlson: (unclear)

Carlson: What did ...

Phelan: Something to the effect of something thrown in a window, and something scorched, it didn't even start. It wasn't what. by the boldest stretch, what you could call a fire bombing.

Carlson: But there were lots of demonstrations. Phelan: Yes. Violence in that windows were broken, at times. Things were thrown. and broken windows.

Carlson: What about the coverage of the demonstrations. You must have read the (unclear), TV coverage

Phelan: Local, or..

Carlson: Local, there wasn't that much National that I can remember. Did

they exaggr:rate the numbers at the demonstrations?

Phelan: They were probably fairly accurate at the local... I can remember

some of the pictures. We felt that they underestimated, but In

actuality they.... In any demonstration there is maybe three percent people who are at the demonstration and 97 percent who

come to see what the crowd is all about. Which In turn, being a crowd. the police can't distinguish. everybody looks alike, we're students. 27

Carlson: Critics always say that the media in America underestimates the

demonstrations in this country and overesttmates the numbers in communist countries.

Phelan: Yeah.

Carlson: But tell me about Roger Messer? He became the (unclear) of the movement?

Phelan: He was Just a .... He was younger than me, I remember meeting him, he lived with a friend of mine.

Carlson: In the 70's?

Phelan: Yeah, about '69, '70, somewhere in there. Carlson: Because he becomes..

Phelan: That's Just it. He doesn't. I don't want to disagree with you here..

Carlson: No, I'm just asking, It's just all memory with me.

Phelan: OK. Well. he was, ... in your memory he was....

Carlson: He got the publicity.

Phelan: He got the publicity. See, but he was Just one of many. He was a

little more articulate than most. but he was no more articulate than, say. Ed Jacques. He was pretty bold. a lot of people were afraJd of their future careers and didn't really want to confront. He would go rtght up to Miller or whoever, and he had a certain, had a wonderful flair about him. No one had the flair he did, took absolute delight. Had absolutely no hostility. A lot of radicals generate hostility, which in turn doesn't make your cause very receptive. He was Just, you know, a tremendous sense of humor, almost as if he's laughing at these people, which in turn drove them absolutely crazy.

Carlson: Like Abbey Hoffman would you say? 28

Phelan: Oh yeah. Yeah. Although not ... Abbey was here, we met Abbey. Abbey Hoffman was the reincarnation of Lenny Bruce. No question

about it. Roger was a little more sophJsticated, he wasn't quite the visceral humor, but he had a way of absolutely driving Westem's "powers that be" right up ... END OF SIDE ONE Phelan: A certain arrogance about him, self confidence, far beyond his years. He was around twenty at the time. he was very articulate, very well read. Seemed to hit home to the bottom of every issue

what was important. Very good organizer, the best thing you need

ln that sort of environment. Back then people, powers, or officials, authorities, were always looking for leaders, they figured that student could not come up With these ideas on their own. There had to be someone, some professor, or a book they read, or a film they saw, which was totally ridiculous because It was life. We were coming to the same conclusions simultaneously, independent. They decided that Roger was one of the organizers, one of the most

dangerous people. He had an affinity for getting his name ln the paper, he was always rtght there. At one point they decided that Roger created the incident and were vaguely looking for him, vaguely, not specifically. So we got the idea that all these "Hello, my name ts" name tags. and we wrote, "Hello, my name is Roger Messer,· and all the males that would wear one. wore one. There were about 200 of us With these little • Hello, my name ts Roger Messer· name tags. (laughs) and it Just kind of summed up the way we felt about the way they felt about it. 29

Carlson: At this time did any administrators talk to you people about the dangers of what you were doing, at all?

Phelan: Well, we had some take-overs at this point. I remember we took over the union one night.

Carlson: I don·t remember that.

Phelan: Well I do. I remember specillcally because I was working at the union. You don't remember'?

Carlson: I remember the Black take-over.

Phelan: Oh, no. we took over the union twice. And that's the one the police ...

Carlson: When was that, approXimately?

Phelan: About '69. It was '69.

Carlson: OK. That's...

Phelan: That' s when the State Police lined up all across, all the way from Miller's house up to the union. Tear gas was fired In the union. Actually It was much more violent than when the Blacks took over. Carlson: Tell me about that story. it's kind of coming back now. Phelan: As near as I can recollect, and agatn I can't, don't quote me on this

but, it seems it was a normal SOS meeting night. like a Tuesday ntght, ten o'clock, or something. We, (Sanger?) and those of us. went back to the Union and we were all fired up and very. it was a time of being really pissed-off, feeling really helpless. Our lives were being taken over. We felt we had no control over our lives. Here we were being channeled Into careers none of us wanted. At the same time we were being shipped away to Southeast Asia. And our

generation isn't even questioning It. Just off they go In the cattle cars. It was a very frustrating time. Nixon was President. 30

Phelan: Exceedingly depressing prospects for self-con trol, or for control over one's own lives. If one had any sort of conscience at all, If you didn't want to just go off and join the American Team, there were not many alternatives. And as I remember It was simply spontaneous. We came back to the union and we decided not to leave. The union closed at eleven o'clock. We decided we were adults, and we were simply not going to leave at eleven o'clock. It was going to stay open, we were going to play music. Basically we did. We stayed open. Carlson: How many? Phelan: I would say twenty to thirty. It was enough that they couldn't get us out. So we just stayed. Carlson: Did the campus police come?

Phelan: Campus police came, but at this point there were about three sleepy cops who sat around drinking coffee. It was nothing like the Campus Police now. We wouldn't leave. we said It was our union. the Student union, and we were staying. We were going to drink coffee and play the juke box. We stayed all night, and nothing really happened. A few admlnlstratlon officials came over. checked on us, and left. Carlson: Didn't talk to you?

Phelan: Didn't really talk. Just saw we weren't in any mood... We were up on tables. I think, but we weren't really, ... no damage was done. And at thlS point I don't really think any food was taken. Maybe a Hostess, those things already wrapped, but nothing was taken. All night and into the next day. Of course the next day It was open

and we gatned more crowd, and the word was that the MC5 was 31

Phelan: coming from Ann Arbor. Motor City Five, and they were the group that made the famous song "Kick (up?out?) the (Jams?), Mother Fucker.· Everybody Just loved that. Terrible group. Absolutely atrocious. No musicianship, Just simple notse. Methadrtne powered beat. Well the MC5 couldn't show up, but the Up did.

They were worse. They were ninety pound speed freaks from Ann Arbor with hair down to their asses. And they came, and they

performed in the union. Well, at this point. this Is the second night, the State Police had been alerted, and I remember the union office was taken over by the administration. George McKinsey was the union manager, had a little office rtght opposite the counter. They put cardboard up on the windows, and they were in there huddling all the time. Deciding what to do. Miller apparently was kind of In charge; were they going to call the police, forcibly evict us or weren't they. It was give and take for a long time. In fact I remember, this IS a true story. I used to work there, so I had more reason to be there than anybody. I could kind of play either way, If

they said you couldn't be there. And Miller... I was leaning against

the wall of the office, President Miller came In with, with It looked like a football team, actually. They had their Jong coats on and

their hats. He had a pipe In his mouth, He came In out of the (unclear) huddle, and he walked Into the office, and he stopped

and at thlS point I had long, longer, hair, so 1 kind of looked like the enemy. He looked at me and he Just pointed with his pipe and

he Said, "Well Its gotng to be a tough ball game, but we are gotng to

play it.· And I just looked at him and I said, "Yeah, but it's the last of the ninth and the bases are loaded." (laughs) And he stuffed his 32

Phelan; pipe back In hiS mouth, and went back into the office and put the

cardboard back up In the window. Eventually the police were called

in. State Police and Kalamazoo Police. They formed a line from the front of the Oaklands all the way across the street, up the hill, up to the union, and started a sweep. Forcibly evicted us from the union, threw some tear gas down there. We all ran around. It was a typical demonstration which consisted of everyone Just running around. Nobody really doing anything. Later I worked at the police

department for five years and I found out that everybody enjoys

demonstrations. The participants and the police enjoy It equally as well.

Carlson: Why do the police enjoy It?

Phelan: Because It's Just a lot of fun to get into riot gear and watch a bunch a students running around, chase them. At least back then, I don't know about now. It's different. But twenty years ago.

Carlson: Our demonstrations back there were pretty tame.

Phelan: Oh Yeah. I think the most extent of the damage was a bus line was cut. A campus bus had parked up there, back when they still

had a through street on Michigan. It wasn't a Mall, you could drive rtght up. A bus had stopped and somebody cut one of his lines,

which stalled th.e bus there. That was the extent of It. Then the

local police brought out a pepper gas gun, which wouldn't work, and so one of the local hippie girls, Just like on TV, stuck a flower

1n the barrel of the pepper gas gun.

Carlson: But, there were no demands on your part.

Phelan; There probably were. Although I can't remember them. I'm sure

there were, I'm certain there were. But It was probably something 33

Phelan: like "Get out of Southeast Asia" (laughs) I mean It wasn't .... .I'm sure there were some local ones, maybe have the hours open longer. One point I th.lnk was tnterestlng was the second night, of the demonstration, when the band was playing, there were an

incredible amount of people ln the un.lon. Bea (Ba.Ir?), and George McKinsey, McKinsey was manager of the union and Bea Bair was h.ls first lieutenant, or whatever. The h.lpptes had a special fondness for her, and she them. And when everybody crowded into the union, all what we call the straight people, were taking food, because there were so many people they were simply taking food,

stealing it. Stealing potato chips, anything. Any food that was out, they were taking. George McKinsey simply stood at the end of the cash register line. And he had such rapport with the studen ts that

nobody could walk by with food that they had taken. So everybody paid. So he opened the cash regtster, so they ended up maldng money selling all this food all ntght long.

Carlson: That's a great story. (laughs) Phelan: It was true, because we were all very.... we were good kids. Nobody would steal the food. Especially the hippies, because they were our family.

Carlson: What about the second time? Phelan: That one ts a little foggier, I remember It was done agatn ... not nearly as good. It didn't last two days. Never a two day...

Carlson: 1 have memories of a certain administrator taking names.. Phelan: Well. when you talked about Roger Messer. there was an hiStortan,

Burke, ln the history dept., he was a real fascist. I think he had

had Roger Messer in a class of his. He ts an example of how these 34

Phelan: people get pegged as tnsugators. I think he had had Roger In a class, or Roger had disrupted one of his classes, but he had personal deallngs with Messer. He went to the administration, I think he was one of the people that pegged him as the leader. There were no leaders, but he was one of us. And he made tt his mission to get Roger, to get him out of the University. To get him out of every aspect of Kalamazoo ltfe. It was absurd, and Roger

delighted 1n it, truly delighted 1n it.

Carlson: What about disrupting classes? We had orders at that time, what to do If somebody Interrupted your class. I remember mine was to

say "Everyone hold 1t now," and I would to run out and call campus police while they were holding at attention and then come back. Phelan: We used to disrupt classes, and the best at that was Linda Lamper. It was on Freddie (Pearlman"s?J orders. Basically it comes from the concept of The . Basically, as I said before, a sense of powerlessness. a sense of helplessness, that events were rushing headlong. we were being tossed Into this with no feedback, no attempt at any dialog. This was just what It was. No chance. Classes, you know they were...

Carlson: How did you decide which classes? Phelan: Didn't matter. Didn't matter. It would be simply a math class, or whatever. This Is a little bit later, a year or so later, It wasn·t the

first year. Roger was one of them. We'd go In and we would say, "We are not going to talk about this, this ts irrelevant. This does

not have any.... people are dying in Southeast Asia. This does not have any beartng on our lives. For the next twenty minutes we are 35

Phelan: gotng to talk about Southeast Asia whether you want to or not." In general the students were more antagonistic than the faculty

members. The faculty would usually stand aside, and lean back 1n the side of the room. The students, some of them were very antagonistic, some to the point of physical Violence. Some of the people would say, ·1 paid for this class and you are not going to dlsruptlt." Carlson: I can remember people, not disrupting my classes. but l remember people who didn't stgn up and who Just participated in my classes. I don't remember them disrupting my class. Phelan: Right. Of course you were more in the Social Science Field. But if you were talking Psychology. or the dynamics of an asteroid, and someone comes In to talk about Southeast Asia, well then you say, "Walt a minute.. " They say, "We're scientists, we don't want to hear about thJs: Carlson: Did they disrupt business classes? Phelan: Oh sure, they were the best. Because we hated the business field. They were the worst. Their Alpha Kappa (Phi?) career day, we would always have a (unclear) that. (laughs) Carlson And nobody from the aclministration ever Said anything like "Look guys, you're JeopardJzing your future. You're going to have a mark on your.... • That's really a credit to the administration. Phelan: No. Honestly, to my knowledge, I can never remember anybody... Miller would say he would intellectually agree with what we were

doing. but this was not the way to do it. Then like the Days of Rage, when SDS did that. They donned football helmets and smashed everything in Chicago. 36

Carlson: Were you sWI here when Kent State Massacre happened? Phelan: Yeah.

Carlson: What was the reaction? Phelan: First we occupied the strip of grass in front of the Federal building. up there. That little strip of grass. Put tents up there and signs. ("Honk if you stopped, you know, Cambodia"?). Well it turned out there were too many people, it was too tight of a area, so we moved the "tent city." quote, u nquote, up to the (Sounds like Rotz!. Could It be ROT-C? slang for ROTC?) building. The Women's Athletic Field. We were fairly left alone there, quite a long time actually, like a week. With a tent city, you know, a few tents, and people hanging out. And that's the only time I can remember any Infiltration because there was an officer called Gordan Grtmm, who used to come at night and sit and drink coffee with us. and say "Well I agree With what you guys are doing because my kid's twelve, and I don't want him to go Into the army." blah, blah, blah. Then later when depositions came out, he said he infiltrated the hippies and

observed them urinating In tbe field with no sanitary facilities and two or more In a sleeping bag and things like this. I sWI have the deposition on that. Stayed there about a week, and they wanted us out of there. Said we couldn't be down there anymore, so we moved down to the pond area. In Goldsworth Valley. We were there for another two weeks until they finally got tired of dealing with us, and they did finally kicked us out. They prosecuted. I sWI have one of the ortginaJ warrants. It was a couple of people and about

300 John Does and 300 Mary Roe warrants and essentially their

argument was there was no sanitary facilities. And we had to leave. 37

Carlson: Did you people ever try to create dialogs in the dorms?

Phelan: Oh yeah, every time. That's where we got our... SOS grew to be quite large, couple hundred would be at meetings. no whether someone would say they were In SOS, but they were in enough to sit through entire meetings. Then the next week a lot of the same people.

Carlson: Was It ever a issue within SOS, the question of violence.. particularly after some people were killed in bombings.

Phelan: It was in terms of National SDS, because I went to the convention in Ann Arbor, but it wasn't In terms of local here. Well, Kalamazoo has always been interesting and unique. We were like the old model, life was good in Kalamazoo. even life as a hippie was good In Kalamazoo, we had It too good to get really committed and caught up on the whole ... you know. We all went to the Moratoriums In Washington, the two moratoriums. We'd take

buses. Kalamazoo was well represented, but as far as the hard core violence, which became the weathermen...

Carlson: Where there any weathermen here? Phelan: Yeah.. about three. There were about three. Roger Messer could have been one. He was approaching that.

Carlson: Because that was the split-off point. One of the split-off points. Phelan: Yeah, It split Into Progressive Labor and Weathermen, at the convention, tn Ann Arbor. And I remember that.

Carlson: What year was that? Phelan: That would have been '69, no later than that. I don't think it was

as late as '70, because I remember ... this Is another unique, I borrowed my father's car, I was home, to go to the SOS convention 38

Phelan: to end Capltallst Oppression. (laughs) He loaned me his car to go to Ann Arbor to go to this convention. Carlson: This is the National? Phelan: Yeah. I went to the convention. It was hortd. It was ghastly. It was horrible. It was filled with Freddie Pearlmans, you know, all these doctrtnatre people, more caught up. It was the first convention where I had come up on the faction that later became known as Progressive Labor. The most tedious people on the face of the

earth.

Carlson: They were Just straight Doctrinal Marxists. Phelan: Yeah. That exactly, and basically their line was that the best... That we are white middle class Intellectuals coming Into what ls essentially a working class war, working class whites and blacks fighting the war. And we are coming In and we have no business coming 1n and telllng these people. We don't understand. Culturally we don't understand, What we should do ts get Jobs at Ford and GM and keep quiet for ten years and slowly build a radical organizational core. One on one dialog with, "Your my press punch operator and you know that war really sucks," and start working one on one. Slowly building It up until eventually the

whole factory can rise up and stop It and then all across... you know, that ts their Idea. The Weathermen, got their name from the part, you know, "You·re weathermen, you know which way the wind blows.· And they were more of... . They didn't have time for that. They didn't have time to go underground for 5 years and work at Ford and tum your mind to mush while you're doing th.ls, so they wanted Immediate action. They weren't always 39

Phelan: Violent, but they did become after The Days of Rage, when they donned motorcycle helmets and I can understand. I'm not Violent, but_I can understand perfectly their feelings. Here was a war going on and people were going about business as usual. Their phrase was "Brtng the War Back Home·. Let a little of the Violence

you are wreaking in Southeast Asia, let's have It come to the streets of Chicago here. And they smashed parked cars and they smashed shop windows. No people, property. It was very specifically directed to property, not people. Carlson: It was the opposite of the neutron bomb, which was being developed.

Phelan: Oh yeah, we were very .... It was an attempt to shock people Into making a stand. because it was too easy not to make a stand In American. You didn't have to make a decision. You didn't have to

be against it or for it. It didn't matter, your life went on as before. That's what was so frustrating to some of the radicals. to us. They didn't make any stand either way. They Just coasted on. Carlson: Now. you stayed on llvtng in this community long after that. After the war ended. That was pretty much the death-knell of...

Phelan: Oh yeah. yeah. I think it even died before that. Because I remember the conventions and then Diana Ougbton, this great lady, and she was truly a cosmic presence, I can't describe her enough. She was truly the Madonna of reasonableness. Made everything so clear, so perfect. And at the convention she said,

"Well it looks like we're going to have to pick up the gun, and I'm not ready to pick up the gun." And I said I'm sure not either, In fact. I'm leavtng SOS, basically, because It's too much trouble, too 40

Phelan: much hassle. And then about a year later, I was still working in the union, I picked up the newspaper and she had been blown up

1n the Townhouse Explosion and they ldenttfted her from her little fingertip. It was the only thing they had left.

Carlson: That brought reality to you. Phelan: Yeah, but It was already that way. I felt that already.

Carlson: Going back to the Mobilization 1n Washtngton. I think in '71. I can remember some students who were very straight, at least not radical in any way. They were very natve. When they got thrown In Jatl there would be 15, then the nextjatl cell would be empty, then 15 in the next cell with one totlet. Phelan: Nbcon, of course. taking great pains to explain he was not gotng to pay any attention to thiS, he was going to watch the footbatl game.

Carlson: Well, he went out and talked to some about football. Phelan: I knew people who actually witnessed that. That was one of the true moments of history. He showed up about three In the morning at the Washington monument, and they said he was absolutely fluorescent orange. that someone had put some makeup on him, some horrid makeup, and all they could think was... remember,

descriptions of Herrman Goerrtng running around 1n hiS little nightie, or his negligee, with orange makeup talking about how hiS atr force iS going to make everything good? He showed up in fluorescent orange makeup. wtld-eyed, asking these people what school they are from and, "Kent State? Yeah, your footbatl team... • or "What about so-and-so quarterback?" And these hard-core radicals looking at each other, "Quarterback? What ts h" taJking about? We are on a ... (tape om 41

Carlson: (unclear) put that away for a pretty much (unclear) from this end?

Phelan: No. I mean I.. .. no.

Carlson: (unclear) at all how it was.... they simply got busses and things... (phone rings. tape off)

Carlson: Now what were we talking about?

Phelan: um.... END OF TAPING