r.),-t-?,,,t), •L STATE Government LIBRARY of South Australia
STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
OH 1/7
Full transcript of an interview with
W. F. COOK
on 28 AUGUST 1985
by Beth Robertson for 'SA SPEAKS': AN ORAL HISTORY OF LIFE IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA BEFORE 1930
Recording available on cassette
Access for research: Unrestricted
Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study
Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library ATB/7/129-7i Mr W.F. COOK ii 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Page
Preface 111
Notes to the Transcript iv
Family and Schooling 1 London home and schooling Amusements and part-time work
Emigration to South Australia 16
Work 19 Stationhand, Myrtle Springs 'On the track' in New South Wales
Family's Repatriation 38
Work continued Forestry labourer, Mount Burr Work after 1930 - Accountancy
Index 57
Collateral Material in File 8507 includes: Photographs (P)8507A,B
Cover Illustration Bill Cook at Millicent aged about nineteen ATB/7/129-7i Mr W.F. COOK iii 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
PREFACE
William Cook was born in North London in 1911. In 1927 Bill's father, a goldsmith, brought the family to South Australia in search of better work opportunities. None eventuated for him and he returned home within a year. His wife and youngest son soon followed. Bill Cook, however, embarked upon an eventful three year initiation of bush life in Australia - from very brief stints on a mallee farm and Kidman's Myrtle Springs Station to life on the track in New South Wales enroute to the working man's Mecca, Queensland (never reached) and work in the Mount Burr forest. Bill Cook settled in South Australia, never returned to England and never saw his parents again.
Mr Cook was 74 years of age at the time of the interview.
Mr Cook has a vivid stock of aneodotes about his first three years in South Australia as well as contrasting memories of life in London. There is a good deal of extraneous noise on the tape recording - a creaky chair, knocks to the dining room table and the rustling of maps and Mr Cook does speak rapidly - but the reproduction of his voice is clear.
The interview is two hours and fifty minutes in length and was recorded in one session.
'S.A. Speaks: An Oral History of Life in South Australia before 1930' was a Jubilee 150 project conducted under the auspices of the History Trust of South Australia for two years and two months ending December 1986. The Interviewees are broadly representative of the population of South Australia as it was in the first three decades of the twentieth century. Selection of Interviewees was guided by a Sex and Occupation Sample calculated from the 1921 Census and Inter- viewees were suggested, in the main, by people who responded to 'S.A. Speaks' publicity. Each interview was preceded by an unrecorded preliminary interview during which details about the Interviewee's family history and life story were sought to help develop a framework for the interview.
As stated in the Conditions of Use for Tape Recordings and Transcripts adopted for the 'S.A. Speaks' project: 'The copyright in the item(s) [viz, the tapes and transcripts of Interview 8507] and all the rights which normally accompany copyright including the right to grant or withhold access to them, conditionally or unconditionally, to publish, reproduce or broadcast them, belongs in the first instance to the History Trust of South Australia for the purposes of the 'S.A. Speaks' project and after the cessation of that project to the Libraries Board of South Australia for the purposes of the Mortlock Library of South Australiana.' ATB/7/129-7i Mr W.F. COOK iv 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT
Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word. It was the policy of the Transcriptionist, Chris Grad°lf, and the Interviewer, as editor, to produce a transcript that is, so far as possible, a verbatim transcript that preserves the Interviewee's manner of speaking and the informal, conversational style of the interview. Certain conventions of trans- cription have been applied (i.e. the omission of meaningless noises, redundant false starts and a percentage of the Interviewee's crutch words). Also, each Interviewee was given the opportunity to read the transcript of their interview after it had been proofread by the Interviewer. The Interviewee's suggested alterations have been incorporated in the text (see below). On the whole, however, the document can be-regarded as a raw transcript.
Researchers using the original tape recording of this interview are cautioned to check this transcript for corrections, additions or deletions which have been made by the Interviewer or the Interviewee but which will not occur on the tapes. Minor discrepancies of gram mar and sentence structure made in the interest of readability can be ignored but significant changes such as deletions of information or correction of fact should be, respectively, duplicated or acknowledged when the tape recorded version of this interview is used for broadcast or publication on cassettes.
Abbreviations
The Interviewee, Mr W.F. Cook, is referred to by the initials WC in all editorial insertions in the transcript.
Punctuation
Square brackets [1 indicate material in the transcript that does not occur on the original tape recording.
The Interviewee's initials after a word, phrase or sentence in square brackets, i.e. [word or phrase WC] indicates that the Interviewee made this par- ticular insertion or correction. All uninitialled parentheses were made by the Interviewer.
A series of dots, indicates an untranscribable word or phrase.
Sentences that were left unfinished in the normal manner of conversation are shown ending in three dashes, - -
Spelling
Wherever possible the spelling of proper names and unusual terms has been verified. Where uncertainty remains the word has been marked with a cross in the right hand margin of the Interview Log and Data Sheet which can be consulted in the Interview File.
Typeface
The Interviewer's questions are shown in bold print. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 1. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
'S.A. Speaks: An Oral History of Life in South Australia Before 1930' Beth Robertson interviewing Mr W.F. Cook 41111111111110111111111 on 28 August 1985
TAPE 1 SIDE A
If you could start by telling me your full name.
William Frederick Cook.
And have you always been known as William?
No, I hate it - it's Bill. Even my great grand kids call me Bill.
And do you know if you were named for anyone in particular?
Just my father. He was William George.
What was the date of your birth?
Twenty eighth of May 1911.
Where were you born?
North London. Well we lived at 101 Highworth Road, New Southgate, N11, but whether I was born there or not I don't know.
You were saying that that was where you grew up?
Yes, where I grew up - and went to school from that area. And my grand- parents lived over the road - my father's mother and father - and my mother's parents lived in Birmingham. Was it Ward End, Birmingham? I've forgotten the name of the road.
Is that the only home that you remember from England?
Yes, because we left there to come to Australia. That's the only place in England I ever lived in, anyway.
What was your father's full name?
William George Cook.
And do you know the date of his birth?
Oh no. Back in eighteen hundred and something. I haven't the faintest idea to be honest.
Do you know the year he died?
He died in England round about '59 or '60 I think, roughly. It might've been a bit before. My mother died a few months before. She had a bronchial or ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 2. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
something or other. Because I was out here then and my brother and a cousin went round to see and he died. And of course Mother had died before that. And they advised me and that was it. Nothing I could do about it. But I think it was round about 1959.
Do you know how old he was then?
Oh, he'd be up in his seventies. No. Let's see. It'd be back in round about 1880 I would think. I'm not sure. I don't really know.
But that gives us a fair idea. And you said his mother and father lived over the road from you. Had he been born and brought up in the area?
He had, so far as I know. That's about all I can remember actually. He had a brother Percy who became a dentist later on and he went to South End. But I didn't know him very well. That's about all I can remember about the family. I had a heap of uncles and aunties and cousins in Birmingham. I can't remember much about them. I remember one or two, you know.
Do you remember how many brothers and sisters your father had?
No, he only had one brother. I'm not too sure how many - about half a dozen in my mother's family. I think there's an Uncle Ted. He lived in Tottenham I think. There's about three other sisters that I can remember, and I can't even remember their names. I think Maude was one. She had a daughter - cousin Doreen. Because we visited them just before we came to Australia. And Uncle Ted had a couple of boys. I can't think of their names now. One was an odd name, started with N - Noel - I can't remember now. I know it sounded an odd name to me at the time. What he did I don't know.
Don, my cousin, his father married Mum's sister. He had an off licence in Birmingham. No drinking on the premises. I think Don was the only boy but he - - -. At the time he was so big. He had tailor made suits, you know - Dad was a bit fussy - his Dad was a bit fussy. And when he was in company he wouldn't say a word. When he was away from his mother and father, nobody could do a thing with him. 'You're not my mother,' You're not my father.' (laughter) He was a character.
But I can't remember much about the others. I remember Doreen - she was quite a good looking girl. I can't remember now this very well at all. It's a long time ago you know.
Do you know where your father went to school? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 3. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
No. I should remember it. He had a book he won at school - a great big thing. What's happened to it now - it was a prize. I don't really know to be honest.
Do you think it was what we'd call a private school?
I don't think so. But I don't really know to be honest.
Well, what can you tell me about his occupation?
I made a note of it here somewhere. He was a member - - I don't remember the name of the firm he worked for, but he was a member of the Goldsmiths' and Silversmiths' Guild, which was a union. They were a group of craftsmen. And in the twenties when the small cars started to come out, trade started to drop away because instead of giving their - - -. Wealthy people, instead of giving their daughters expensive jewellery, they bought them a small motorcar instead, so the trade steadily dropped down.
And what sold Dad on Australia, there was a chap - oh, friend, he used to be an English taxi driver - came out to Adelaide, and he had a service station in Beulah Park. And I think Dad was in touch with him and decided to come to Australia. He wasn't thinking so much about himself as my brother and myself.
As a matter of fact, when he was doing that I didn't get any pocket money. I made a note there. I used to get up in the morning and deliver newspapers - up in the early hours of the morning - daily papers, you know. In the letter box or over the fence. And I used to help the milkman on weekends - get a bit of extra pocket money. Sometimes I made more than Dad, which wasn't much anyway. (laughs)
So anyway, we went to Australia House and decided to come to Australia. I don't think we got any assistance. I think the fare in those days was forty four pounds for an adult. We had a shared cabin. There was Mum and Dad and my brother Gerald and myself in the one cabin. What they paid for us I don't know, but I remember the fare was forty four pounds for adults. They came out on the - it was the Osterly was the name of the ship, but whether it was P & 0 or Orient Line, I'm not too sure which.
We'll talk about your memories of the trip more in just a minute. Can you tell me your mother's full name?
Yes. Florence Ada Harris was her maiden name.
And do you know the date of her birth? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 4. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
No, I haven't the faintest idea now.
Was she about the same age as your father?
Round about the same I think. She might have been a fraction younger but I'm not too sure.
Do you know where she was born and grew up?
Birmingham so far as I know. I think when she came to work she came to work in London, but what as I don't know, because when I was born she wasn't working and didn't work afterwards you see.
And she didn't talk about that, that you remember?
No. Well, I suppose as a small boy, I wasn't very interested you see. Dad used to be a crossword fan and a reader and I did a bit of reading when I wasn't out romping with the other young fellers.
Do you know anything about her education?
No, I don't know anything at all.
Well, you've told me about her family. She had, was it three sisters and - - -?
As far as I can remember three sisters and one brother, but whether there was any more or not I can't place them. There's Maude - Maude, Mavis and Florence I think, and Uncle Ted. That's the only ones I can remember. I could be out a little bit in that respect. It was a long time ago and I - - Of course I didn't see them very often anyway, so. We were in London, they were in Birmingham. No, Uncle Ted was in Tottenham - I saw him occasionally, not very often though.
What line of work was her father in, do you know?
My grandfather - I think he was a carpenter, but I wouldn't be sure of it. The only time I ever saw him he was sitting down with his moustache and smoking a pipe and we'd have to go down to the corner shop to get him a plug of tobacco which he used to cut and smoke. So, how old he'd be - I think he was a carpenter but I wouldn't be sure of that. He was a tradesman of some sort.
And his name was Harris. Do you !mow his christian names?
No, I'm afraid I don't.
What about your grandmother?
Oh. I can't remember much about her either. No, I can't even remember her christian names. She was always Gran, or something like that, you see, and I can't remember it. I can't even remember my grandfather's christian names. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 5. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Did you see that part of the family much?
Generally on school holidays. The English school holidays were August/ September - round about six or seven weeks - and sometimes we'd go up there for a fortnight or so, or sometimes a bit longer, and stop there. I always remember that because out that way the Midlands speak differently and when I came back to school the kids could hardly understand me and they'd say, 'Where've you been?' Oh up at the castle, playing around on the grass,' you see. Then after a week it'd wear off and you'd go back to your normal speech. I remember that bit.
I think it was a fairly outlying suburb because we used to go for - well, Don and I used to go for an amble - walks around, and we - - -. We'd be walking that far, I suppose, and you'd be out in country properties. Because I always remember a big sign - I don't know whether they were real estate agents or solicitors - it was Farthing, Farthing, Farthing and Halfpenny. (laughs) With a name like that who'd forget it? That's about the only names I can remember from there.
You said that your father's people lived very close to you.
Just diagonally across the road.
And their name would have been Cook. Do you know your grandfather's christian names?
I think that was another William. But I can't remember my grandmother's name. I wasn't very keen on her. Well, I mean, I didn't dislike but she per- sisted in calling me Willy, which I hated you see.
And what line of work was your grandfather in?
I don't really know to be honest. No I can't say. He might have been mixed up in the jewellery business, but I don't really know. I can't remember him going to work or seeing him going to work because Pd be at school and things like that. It didn't particularly interest me. I didn't even think about it.
Did you have regular family gatherings between the two households?
They were that close. It was only like from here over to the house across the road, and they were fairly narrow streets, and very small front gardens. Houses joined together, you know. Oh, it'd be fairly frequent I suppose. Mum and Dad might've gone across but I'd probably be out with the other kids playing around. As a youngster you wouldn't like getting mixed up with formal adults. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 6. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Let's talk about the house that you remember in England. Can you describe it to me?
Yes, it was a single front. The lounge was on the right hand side and there were steps to upstairs - or stairs. There was another room behind the lounge and then there was the kitchen and a scullery - all single width. And upstairs there was a main bedroom and two other rooms. Because at one stage we let that to a chap and his wife - or rather Mum did. Eke out our income. He was a Cockney, but I can't think of his name. And then shortly after that we left to come to Australia.
But there was no bathroom. I made a note there somewhere today. If you wanted a bath, you went through the kitchen - there was a scullery and a big built in copper. A washtub sort of arrangement. So if you wanted a bath you had to light the copper. A big portable bath. You'd either put it in the scullery or the kitchen and have a bath, you see. And the toilet, you had to go out the back door and round there to an outside toilet.
There was two or three trees in the back garden. There was a pear tree and an apple tree and something else. It wasn't a very wide garden. It was just, you know, the width of the house. And then right down the back of the house - - A square - about quarter of a mile square, the house is. And right in the middle was a great big area which had been paved and they had lock-up garages which somebody used to rent out, you see. The cars'd come in. They had no provision for parking cars in the house in those days. And they'd park there. We'd sometimes have a look over the fence to see what was going on, out of curiosity, you know. Or make a short cut around through that when you weren't supposed to. Apart from that, that's about all I can tell you about the house.
Oh, they had gaslights in the street in those days. I think they came on some time after the war. But I can remember one episode of the war. I was out in the middle of the street and you could see a zeppelin and the search lights. I can't remember any anti aircraft guns, but I'm standing out in the middle of the street and I can see this big zeppelin there. That's about the only thing I can remember from World War One.
Was you father involved in the war?
He was in the Royal Field Artillery. And when he came out they put him in convalesence at High Wickham - I can remember that name. And we stopped at a - it was a farmhouse or a small house down there. The chap there used to, as I said, he used to boil those potatoes for the pigs and his son and I used ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 7. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
to pinch a few and - - I mean, nice little spuds about this round, you know, nice and fresh. And I went to school there for a little while. I don't know how long. Then of course we came back to London when Dad recovered and he went back to work.
How had he been affected?
I think it was only a minor one. A slight touch of gas I think it was. But it didn't seem to effect him afterwards because he lived well into his seven- ties. But I can't remember him suffering from any - - -. The only time I remember him going to the hospital was for kidney stones. They whizzed him off in pain and that was a local - - I forgot what they call them. Hospital not far away anyway. But he wasn't there long. And that's about the only time I can remember him being sick.
You've mentioned your brother Gerald. How old was he in relation to you?
Oh, there was about nine years' difference I think. He was born after the war and he was out here with us of course. And Dad went back early in the piece. Well, I say fairly early - he was out here 1927. They had a deli out at Kent Town for a little while. And it wasn't particularly successful. The Depression was coming on.
And I think he got a job - - -. They were doing some work down at Moana at one stage - in the early days of Moana. I think he was down there for a little while. And then the relations in England found him a job which he couldn't get here. The jewellery business wasn't very bright here at that time. And he went back. I remember Gerry stopped on for a while. When did they go back? I'm not too sure what year they went back. I know I was away at the time. I was down the South-East when they went back. Round about 1930 I suppose. I'm not too sure of the dates in that regard.
Well, we'll return to that and perhaps work at it in other directions. Talking a little bit more about the household in England. Was it just you, your brother and your mother and father in the house?
Yes.
Did your mother have any home help?
No. That was her sole responsibility. Dad, Mum and Gerry and I.
What do you remember of family activities of that time?
We used to go to the pictures generally on a Saturday night. It was a fair walk. In fact we used to go through parklands. I know Dad would have his wellington boots on - in winter time of course. We used to go to the pic- ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 8. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
tures. One lot was at Palmer's Green. Oh, I suppose it'd be the best part of a couple of miles. Because not many people had motorcars in those days and there was no convenient public transport to go there. Where else did we go? Oh we went to Wembley when that was on. That was in 1923, 1924 I think, when they built the Wembley Stadium and had the - what do you call it - exhibition or show. I forget what the devil they called it now. Great big to- do there, you know. Canadian Mounted Police and all those sorts of things.
They probably did call it an exhibition.
That was the foundation of - I mean, there's football finals there now, but it was fairly big then. I can't remember a great deal about it. I remember a mate - Dick Wilding and I - used to go to the cigarette machine and get a packet of cigarettes. We weren't supposed to. I mean if you'd be supposed to we probably wouldn't have done it. (laughs) I think you'd get ten cigarettes for sixpence - something like that. Just to show our independence. I can't remember much about the Exhibition. I can remember the Canadian Mounted Police in their colours. But the other bits and pieces are a bit hazy. There was two years in a row I think - 1923 and 1924. I wouldn't swear to the dates but it was round about then.
Occasionally we used to go to the Wood Green Empire. What was her name? There was one - Marie Lloyd. Her mother was also on the stage. The Empire was sort of vaudeville acts, you know. In those days so me of them were supposed to be, you know, a bit risque, but nobody'd take any notice of them now.
Would that be a family outing?
Yes, sometimes, yes. There was pictures at Wood Green too. You could go there by tram. That was a fairly big shopping centre too. I think they were open on Saturday nights so sometimes we'd go shopping and the greengrocer would have stuff spread out in front of the shops on the footpath, that type of thing. It was a fairly big - reasonably sized shopping centre - I suppose you'd call it. But I don't think I remember seeing it in the daytime. What other amusements were there?
Oh, sometimes we'd go and watch the soccer at the - - -. There was a big parklands we had to go through, when I was going to the secondary school, and there was tennis courts and there was a bandstand there. They used to have a band on occasionally. And soccer grounds, tennis courts and that type of thing. Used to have to walk through the park. Not supposed to ride a bike. We used to when we were going to school though. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 9. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
What about Sundays? What religion were your family?
Mum was more or less a Methodist. I don't know what Dad was. He'd call himself Church of England I suppose, but he wouldn't be very enthusiastic about it. He'd sooner do a crossword puzzle or something I think, to be honest. (laughs)
Who did attend church amongst the family?
Mother. I went to Church of England Sunday School, and I was also in the Church of England Scouts. I've forgotten the name of them now. I've for- gotten the name of the road. There's quite a big Church of England there. The church was over the road and the hall was this side. We used to go there in the Scouts. I was in the Cubs and then I was in the Scouts.
Did your mother attend the Methodist church?
Yes. There was another Methodist church. I've forgotten the name of the place now. It was down a different road. I've got to scratch my memory as to where it was. I think it was Palmer's Green way but I'm not sure, but it was a Methodist church. At one stage Dick and I used to go there - that's a friend - used to attend Band of Hope meetings there. It was a temperance organisation. When we came out, if I had a chance, I'd pinch a small drop of my old man's beer. (laughs)
That was part of your mother's influence was it?
I think so, yes. Oh, we had a good time in the Scouts and the Cubs. We had quite a lot of fun - activities and that sort of thing.
Was your mother strict about your behaviour?
Oh, I think I behaved myself reasonably well. I'd play up at times. Dad'd get stuck in to me on occasions. Most of which I probably deserved anyway. But, I've got to stop and think now. Oh, we had one outing, I think. I don't know if it was the Scouts or the Cubs. There was Alexandra Palace - an older place. That was - - I don't know if it's still up now. It was a big - from memory - a great big place. In fact there was a racetrack alongside it from memory. I can't remember much about what was in it but there was all sort of fancy glass roofs and one thing and another. I think it was Alexandra Palace. I'm not too sure what suburb it was in. We used to walk there anyway, so. I suppose kids - didn't make much difference how far we walked.
You were saying that people garaged their cars behind your house. Did you family ever have a car? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 10. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
No, we never had a motorcar. Dad took driving lessons at one stage but we never had a car. No very few people in our street had a car. There was no provision for garages and it was a working area suburb. Although up the next street - I've forgotten the name of it - the houses were built which were a better class of houses. They had - - -. Even had bathrooms. But then they had no provision for garages or anything like that. So motor cars were an exception. A lot of the lorries were solid tyred.
And I had roller skates and down the bottom of the road was Bowes Road which joined up. I think it went through to Edmonton and my mates and I used to go down there on roller skates. When they first did the road it had little pits in it you see, but when that wore smooth we used to go round there and we'd hop - we'd grab the bus, you see, and we'd go for a mile or two up the road. Then we'd let go and go over the road and catch a mile or two back by hanging on the back of a bus - provided the conductor didn't see me. I think if you let go he couldn't catch you anyway. That was my skates job. What else was there?
I think you were mentioning the other day that - - -. Did you yourself visit the baths?
Oh yes, yes. Dick Wilding was a mate of mine, and last time I heard from him he was in the Army in Burma. But he lived just across the road, the same street. At Wood Green they had baths there on account of a lot of the houses didn't have bathrooms, you see. So a lot of people would go to the baths and they could have hot baths. And they also had a big swimming pool there which was heated. So Dick and I would go for a walk there in the winter time, with overcoats on, you see. And we'd strip off and have a swim because it was warm water. You'd go down the slide and have a swim around and one thing and another. And wring our costumes out and put our overcoats on and I think, oh, it'd be a couple of miles walk back I suppose. By the time we got home the bathing costume would be frozen over your shoulder.
You referred to the area you lived in as a working class neighbourhood. Did you consider your family working class?
Well, we definitely weren't upper crust. I suppose there were all sorts in the street. There was a tradesman, a policeman, carpenters, painters - all sorts of occupations up and down the street. I mean, we were up the far end of the street and the ones further down they - - -. Well, straight down the end of the street was a big school - Bowes Road school where I went to - primary school. I don't know anybody had a motorcar. Oh, there was one chap half way down. He had a big yard. I think he was a painter and decorator. I think ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 11. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
he had a car as part of his business, or small truck or something like that, but that's the only one I can recall in the street.
What do you remember of traffic in the street? Was it a busy street?
No, there'd be very little traffic. About the only traffic up and down the street would be tradesmen. You'd get the costers coming round with their barrows, you know, fish and so forth. But there wouldn't be much traffic. Down the main road there'd be a bit of traffic. As I said, there was a big busline went along there. You know, the single deckers - they worked on that road - and business traffic. But there wouldn't be a lot of motorcars around.
END TAPE 1 SIDE A: TAPE 1 SIDE B
Let's now talk about your education. Where did you first go to school?
I went to Bowes Road school which would be a primary school, I suppose you'd call it here. And then I won a scholarship to Fox Lane. It's got a proper name somewhere, but it was known as Fox Lane. It was a secondary school. There was a means test. If you passed the means - - If you failed the means test you had to pay to go to the school and if you didn't well - - -. So I went free, with books supplied and that, you see. And the first year there for ms divided into A, B, C and at the end of the first year if you did well enough in French you had to do another language the next year, you see. But I didn't like French. I didn't mind it but I don't think we had a very good teacher. So the next year I went into a B form, you see, which meant you only had English and French - and maths and stuff like that. And then in the second year you had a different teacher and from memory my French improved considerably. Now I put it down to the teacher. Now I might be biased but I found that on occasions at schools.
How old were you when you started primary school?
Primary. I suppose I'd be about five or six I suppose. No choice in those days. There was no kindergardens - nothing or anything else.
You said that you went to school for a short time in the country when your father was convalescing.
I don't know how old I'd be then. That'd be what - 1918. I suppose I'd be about seven. Oh, that wasn't for very long. But I suppose, get rid of me - go to school. The place where we - my mother and I were staying - they had a son about the same age as myself and we used to go to school together. Get in trouble together.
What do you remember of the Bowes Street school? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 12. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
It was a big school - several floors. Also opened part of it in my time for a library. I can't remember a great deal about the smaller bit. I can remember a bit as I got a bit older. We had - - -. The teacher that'd take us for music lessons. Well, I wasn't particularly musical and I got the cane for something one day because I was half a note behind the others because I didn't know what the devil they were doing, and I got the cane for that, and I never ever forgave him. So I let two of his tyres down. He had a Sampson sports car.
What was his name?
Ranell I think - I'm not sure. But he used to take us for this music and, not being very musical and - - I don't think he was a very good teacher to be honest. And I'm about half a note behind the others and he called me out and gave me half a dozen across the behind in front of the class. I never ever forgave him for that because it was something I couldn't help. So he had this sports car, so I let two of his tyres down. But I've had the cane plenty of times at school but, I mean, I never ever took any action because I probably deserved it anyway. But I mean fair's fair, but when you get punished for something you can't help, I reckon that's an injustice. So I got my own back and that's it. I don't whether I was a suspect or not, to be honest. And then I - - I can't remember much about that.
I remember one of the bigger lads getting stuck into a teacher one day. I didn't see it - only heard about it - but what it was over I don't know. But generally they were pretty good. Mostly male teachers. And we had a big playground.
Was it boys and girls at schools?
I think the girls were in a separate category, I think, and I can't remember any girls in the class. There was at secondary school but I can't remember any at the primary. Long way back, you know.
How old were you when you went on to secondary school?
I must have been about twelve I suppose, twelve or thirteen. And that was different. That was segregated and the school was like this. Fence there - boys - girls.
Either side.
But the classes were - - -. You know, the girls would have half the room and you'd have the 9ther half.
How many years did you attend secondary school? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 13. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
It'd be about three I suppose. The Headmaster's name was Warren. We christened him Bunny. Oh, he wasn't a bad old stick. He was quite good. The secondary school teachers - - -. The only punishment they could give was either lines or detentions, you see, and they used to - - -. A detention was half an hour and you'd have to stop after school - from say four till half past - and they'd be in charge you see. And on Wednesday night the Arts teacher would stop for an hour so you could work out two detentions. And he wasn't very popular.
And you see they'd - - -. What we used to do - I suppose kids being cunning you see - we had homework to do every night. And the teacher in charge of detention would say, 'Hands up those who've got work to do.' And one of our other punishments was work to do in detention, you see. He'd say, 'Hands up those who've got work to do in detention,' you see, and you'd put your hand up, and you'd get your stuff out and you'd do some of your home- work, and you'd put it away. And those who had work to do in detention - they didn't bother to count. They'd have to go up and they'd have to have it initialled you see, but we'd have part of our - half an hour of our homework done. (laughs) And so that was all right. Detentions weren't too bad actually.
Then one - - I think in the second form we had a master called Maine. He had one of these Morgan cars. He wasn't a bad sort. He had a bright idea this year of - - -. We used to have a term report, you see, with conduct this that and the other, you see, so he decided that he'd impose a penalty for detentions. He'd give a maximum of thirty marks for conduct, you see, and that was the top. And for every detention you got your lost three marks. Well three of us finished up with overdrafts. (laughs)
Oh, you'd get all sorts of things. You'd get a teacher to do his - - A chap - what was his name - Smythe. Oh, he wasn't a bad sort. Of course they always used to wear their gowns and so forth, you know - they were all MAs and BAs and what have you. And he seemed to have a soft spot for her - he seemed to favour her a bit. She wasn't a bad looking girl actually. Her name was Marjorie Lamb. So we were acting the goat one day and we wrote out a - - Oh, she had a boyfriend named Hobbs - we called him Hobbo so we could practice a bit of a poem. Now what was it? Something about - can't remember the actual words now. Was it - 'Poor old Lamb, two kids in a pram, which Hobbo don't like. So we'll bust Squire's bike - - (laughs) Kid's stuff, you see. And he picked us up on it and he did his block. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 14. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
What was the last line?
Hobbo - Hobbo was the nickname of her sort of little boyfriend, you see.
And what was it about the Squire's - - -?
Oh, the Squire was the teacher. I've forgotten how it came in now. There's something about 'Poor old Lamb, two kids in a pram'. The master's name came into it somewhere but I can't remember all the details - and then, 'which Hobbo doesn't like. So we'll bust Squire's bike', you see. Of course he came over and did his block. And fifteen hundred lines a piece. There was Colin Gill, myself and somebody else. And I think he had second thoughts about, you know, doing his block really. After a week went past he said, 'How many lines have you boys done?' I'd done a hundred and I think Colin had done a hundred and fifty and somebody else had done two hundred. And I think he never asked us after that. (laughs) Nobody did any more.
Were you a bit of a lad at school?
Oh, no worse than any of the others I suppose. I seemed to get punished for being caught out, you see. We used to have one - - -. The afternoon lessons were from two till four - there was three forty minute lessons you see. And one day a week for each form you had the last forty minutes off for - oh, I think it was tennis for the girls, cricket for the boys in the summer and soccer in the winter, you see. So sometimes I'd go home lunchtime you see. I think we had about two hours for lunch. A half hour walk anyway it was sometimes if I didn't use the bike. So soccer days you'd go home and you'd go back to school in thin shorts and your soccer boots you see.
So this particular day I was kept back by the teacher. Nothing that I'd done - it was just query or something or other, you see, and then there was our soccer time and the place was upstairs like this. And I'm racing down the corridor - and it had those paved, those hard, hard wood - you know, parquet type of things you see. I'm getting near the corner and I'm taking a slide and who should come round the corner but old Bunny Warren. I hit him in the third button of the waistcoat. And I couldn't get round him because he was between me and the stairs, you see. 'Stand under the clock.'
So I was standing under the clock and he used to send his - I've forgotten the name - he used to send his secretary out and, you know, 'Bend over, lift up your coat tails,' and I got half a dozen across the behind. In thin soccer - in shorts too. By gee was I warm? I was the fastest thing on the ground for the next quarter of an hour. (laughter) ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 15. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Were you working towards anything in particular with school? Did you have ambitions of what sort of work you wanted to go into?
Well, no, I had no fixed ambition about what I wanted to be - apart from getting out of school. I didn't sit for matric. because we came out here you see.
Was there any talk of you going on with school once you got here?
Well, yes and no. One thing you see, when we were looking about coming to Australia, we went to Australia House and they were pushing life on the land and that type of thing, you see. So I lost city ambitions and we came out here. I don't know how I got it, but I got a job as a chap on a farm up at Mindarie and I only stopped there about a month. But I learned the basics of milking a cow and riding a horse.
So you're saying that your intentions on coming to Australia was work on the land?
Yes.
Had your father, before the decision to come to Australia, had any particular ambitions for you, do you know?
No, I think to be honest, I think he was more concerned with the welfare of the family and himself because his trade or craft was going downhill and there wasn't much opportunity. His main concern was to get out here, which he thought would give Gerry and I an opportunity.
Was he not working at all before you left?
Oh, very little. It was sort of piece work, you know. They'd get elaborate jewellery and so forth to either reconstruct or to build - reconstruct or repair. That was over the advent of the Austin 7s and so forth. You know, that type of jewellery trade was going downhill. It might have revived a lot since but at that stage, with the Depression moving along, it was grim. So he decided if he came out here that it would give Gerry and I a better chance, you see.
You said that you had a paper round and a milk round.
Well, I worked for the newspaper people - - -. I've forgotten the name of the road there. It was the main road with the tram. We used to go up there in the early hours of the morning. We'd have to fold the papers then take our packet up - you'd have to rely on memory after you - once you learnt the round - and in the letter boxes. Most of the doors were really close to the front. There were no big front gardens in. In the letter box. Five or six days a week. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 16. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
And then on the weekends I'd help the milkman. The milkman had a handcart with a great big drum in it. I think I used to get ten bob for the full weekend and five bob or something on Saturday - something like that. He was round shouldered from pushing the thing. And the milk depot was down on Bowes Road - not a great way away from us. What was his name? Charlie something or other. And it was like a - - -. Quite a big depot, but it was only a branch. They had big trucks used to come in and unload the milk there and then the milkers had a certain area and they'd get their thing loaded up. There'd be - - -. There weren't many bottles. There were some bottles but it was nearly all, you know, lid can out and that type of measurement.
And so were you working then most early mornings?
Oh yes, yes.
At what age did you start?
I don't know. Eleven or twelve I suppose. I was still going to school. Well I was going to school all the time but Dad was up against it, so I thought 'Oh, well - get a bit of extra pocket money for myself.' Plus the fact a few things I wanted to buy, you know, like roller skates and things like that. I'd save my money and get it that way. Oh, we had a few trips into town, Dick and I. We went in one of the milk wagons early one morning and had a bit of a look around the London markets and so forth. I've forgotten which market it was now. Billingsgate was a fish market. I'm not too sure of that, I'm not. I can't remember a great deal about it actually. Then we came home again. It was just a bit of a look around - get away from the place.
Let's now talk about your family's decision to come to Australia. You've told me the circumstances of your father's work and why he wanted to migrate. Do you know why, though, the decision was made to come to South Australia rather than other places that he might have gone to?
Oh, yes. You see, Dad had a friend who'd been a London taxi driver. His name was George Jefferies. As a matter of fact, I think his daughter's an accountant somewhere or other in South Australia. Oh she was a tomboy. I haven't seen her for - what, sixty years since I - - (laughs) He knew George fairly well and we used to visit them on occasions and when they came to Australia they must have been in touch with Dad. I mean, I don't know the full circumstances, but that was the lead to come to South Australia - because he knew somebody, you see. And so we packed up and said goodbye to all the relations and one thing and another and - -
How did you feel about making the move? Do you remember? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 17. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Oh, I couldn't have cared less. I was going to a new place. It'd be all right, you see. Well, we were sold a bit on it by Australia House. I thought, you know, wide open spaces and things like that.
Did you visit Australia House yourself?
I think so but I can't remember much about it. I was probably in the back- ground. My Dad collected papers and one thing and another. But I remember reading the bits and pieces and the emphasis was on country life - or some of the emphasis was on country life.
And this was the direction you were interested in?
Yes. Well, I hadn't formed any conclusions about city work or any type of work at all. It was just see a bit of the country and - - I had no particular ambition at the time. It was just to go places and see things, you see. So I think we caught the boat at Tilbury - Tilbury Docks. It'd be towards the end of May.
This was 19-
'27.
'27. You would have been fifteen years old.
Yes fifteen, about fifteen. Anyway we took off. I can't remember if we had a - - -. As I said, we had a berth. Gerry and I and Mum and Dad were in the one cabin and I suppose they allowed that seeing that we weren't that old or something or other. Or it might have been lack of accommodation. I don't know whether it was tourist class or second class or what it was, but up the front was the first class. And we settled down. There was another lad or two on board we got around with.
There was one lad - I've never forgotten him. I can't remember his name. He was part Indian. His father was an English Army officer, a Colonel or something or other. He was quite a nice lad. But when we came out here they wouldn't let him land in Australia. Because he went on to Sydney or somewhere. We got off at Adelaide, but I heard afterwards, something or other - and how I don't know - that they wouldn't let him land because he was coloured. Blimy, what a difference now.
So anyway we used to poke around in the boat and we'd sneak down below and go up and get up into the first class quarters to look around. You'd go through one of the long corridors down below and open the door and sneak up and have a look, you know. Not that it made any difference. It was just as good at the back as it was at the front. (laughs) ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 18. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
And I think I was seasick for about one day. I hid away in a cabin some- where and - paper bags. Apart from that the rest was quite good.
It would have been about a four week trip.
About a month, yes. Because we arrived in June. What date I don't know. But, that was about the boat. I don't think we stopped at Gibraltar. No. A French port starting with T - Toulon I think, Toulon or Toulouse. I'm not too sure which one it was. And we had a sort of a walk around the place, you know. The thing that impressed me was the French open air toilets on the street, you know. (laughs) Stand and watch people going by. And the book- stalls with the French literature and so forth - illustrated, you know. Dad used to scruff me along when I stopped to have a look.
Then we called in at Naples. Had a look around Naples too. What impressed me, the police there seemed to be dressed like admirals, you know, with these great big hats on. And then there was another - - -. They must have been Army chaps and they were dressed a bit differently. I can't remember what they were now. Was it cariboneer or something or other - the mounted troops and police. They were dressed in a green sort of a - greeny sort of a uniform. Then we went into the big railway station and had lunch. I can't remember what we had for lunch but they were serving a little red wine and we were allowed a sip, you know. But the thing that impressed me in Naples was the little narrow streets. And there were little wine shops every- where. You'd see a kid about so big running down the street and they'd have a small keg - it'd be two or three gallons I suppose, cask. He'd be kicking it along with his feet and he'd get opposite a wine shop door and kick it. He'd go and fill it up to take home for the family. They drink it like we drink cups of tea I think. That was my impression anyway.
Then we went to Port Said. I can't remember much about that. I remember sitting in a cafe - oh, a sort of open air cafe - on the street having a cup of tea or something or other. And there was one of these chaps. I suppose you'd call him a beggar or something or other. He came around the place looking for donations I suppose you'd call it. And he struck a policeman who picked him up and dumped him on his behind in the gutter. (laughs) You know, ' Back! Out.' That's about all I can remember about Port Said. And of course we came through the Red Sea. That was hot and - warm and sticky.
The next port of call, I think, was Columbo. We had a look around Columbo and they had quite nice gardens there. There was something - I can't think of the name of it now. It used to open out and if you touched it it closed up. Had quite a look around. I can't remember much about Columbo. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 19. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8.507
Then of course the next stop was Fremantle. We didn't go up to Perth. We had a look around Fremantle. And I think it was boot shops and gun shops I think I remember about Fremantle.
What do you remember of your first impressions of Australia?
I suppose big open spaces and - - -. Just came across the Bight. Oh, we got - - -. When we got to Outer Harbour - oh, I've laughed about this before. Outer Harbour back in '27. It looked like a desert outpost from Beau Geste. That's what I thought. There was a big barn and one thing or another. I can't remember much about it except it was pretty isolated and scruffy looking. And, I don't know, I think I came - - I don't know if I came up by train. I know George Jefferies was there to meet us. Two of us came up by - - I think Dad and I came up by train and Mum and Gerry went up with George Jefferies to - -
And we stopped at a place out of Marryatville I think for a while. We had a room there - or rooms there. There was a widow lady and she had a boy- friend from Queensland. He was a Queensland drover. We said 'G'day' and we stopped there. I'm not too sure where we went then. I think Dad bought this deli in Kent Town. We were there for a little while.
Do you remember what street that was on?
Straight up the continuation of Rundle Street. Straight up there and then you go to the corner there and then there's Beulah Road there - Norwood. It was round about there. I'm not too sure of the name of the street. I could look it up I suppose. It's still in the - it would still be in the directory. And, I've got to stop and think. I think then I got a - - I'm not too sure. No, I think I was away when Dad was working at Moana Beach. I got a job in the Mallee. I can't even remember how I got the job now.
How long had you been in South Australia?
Oh, only a few weeks. It was a farm out from Mindarie up in the Mallee. And I went up there. I was there about a month. I learnt the basics of milking a cow and riding a horse. And I got put off. I think he was in financial trouble because he kept the other who was a good cook. I couldn't, even if my name is that. And I came back to - -
Can we talk a bit about that first job? It was something completely different from anything you'd done before.
Oh yes, very, very, very different. And I don't remember a great deal about it. I remember the rudiments of milking a cow. Of course the thing that ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 20. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
impressed me much - there was a German farmer up there. I had to go over and see about something or other - run a message - his name was Mann. And it was the tidiest farmyard I've ever seen in my life. It looked as if even the chips in the wood heap were in place, you know. Of course they had mallee roots and so forth, but everything was in place. The carts, gear round the place. There wasn't a thing out of place, as if it was a showplace. I've never ever forgotten that. I left with one good impression of the German farmers.
Do you remember the name of the farmer you were working for?
No, I'm afraid I can't. Didn't leave that much impression. Oh, gee. I know the name. I've heard it. And I just can't place it. It might come back to me later - I don't know.
Was his land all cleared that stage?
I can't remember a great deal about it. I think most of it was. That's only a guess, but I can't remember doing much on the actual farm itself. I think I was cleaning up around the place and milking a couple of cows and running messages.
How did you feel about striking out on your own - leaving the family in Adelaide?
It didn't sort of worry me much at all. I thought, 'Oh, this is a new aspect', you know, 'I'll get going.' And then when I came back my Dad was still here. We went in, I think it was the Liberal Club buildings and Sidney Kidman - Sir Sidney Kidman. I don't know whether he was Sir then or not. Kidmans had an office there and I got a job on one of their stations. He was - - I suppose he was part owner I suppose. Myrtle Springs out from Copley up north. And I went up there - some time in 1927. Not long after we arrived actually, after the other episode.
And they didn't give me much instruction. Well, I knew how to get there but the information about the trains was a bit lacking. See, you changed trains at - I think it was Quorn because the narrow gauge started then. So what I did - I didn't find out till afterwards - I was supposed to stop over night and catch a train the next morning. But I caught a train and it was part goods - mainly goods - and part passenger you see, and I was on this. And there was two northern Italian chaps. They were going up to Marree to work with a relation doing some fencing. They were quite nice chaps. And we talked away and dozed.
I think we arrived at Copley about four o'clock in the morning. As soon as I got out there the station master or the porter was up and about. He said, ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 21. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
'Where are you going?' and I told him. He said, 'A bit so and so early aren't you? They won't be here till this afternoon.' So, he said - - Oh, in the meantime I'd had information about a swag so I had a groundsheet and a canvas - groundsheet and a couple of blankets and so forth. So he said, 'Unroll your swag and have a snooze'. So I slept on the station platform. You know, one of those bench things, until it got a bit light and I rolled up the things and had a sort of walk around the place. It was the dryest place I'd ever seen. There was a bit of a drought on at the time.
So about four o'clock in the afternoon they came in from Myrtle Springs to pick me up. And I went out there. It was about eighteen miles out on the western side of the line. I think it's a bit northwest of Copley. And I went out there and we went through a gorge before we got to the station home- stead and you could see these rock wallabies - [hopping noises] - first time I'd ever seen a kangaroo, you know, going up the gorge. They're probably extinct now - knocked off - but there were quite a few around. We pulled in there and I was supposed to milk the cows, kill the sheep. I'd never killed a sheep before - it was part of my duties. And clean the boss's car and grease it. And any other jobs around the place.
END OF TAPE 1 SIDE B: TAPE 2 SIDE A
Before we go on, I'd like to ask you how - first of all the Mallee farmer and then the Kidman people - how they acted to you, a raw young lad from England?
I can't remember any adverse response. Kidman's - - I'll tell you more about Myrtle Springs directly. At Kidman's office Dad was with me. And he said, 'Can you milk a cow, ride a horse?', something like that. I think the chap's name was Bird I think. I'm not sure because later on when I was at the Prices Branch, George Todd had been in the Light Horse in World War One, and he knew this chap. I think it was Bird. I wouldn't swear to that though. Oh, I was just young and eager, that sort of thing and - oh - give it a burl. I didn't have any adverse thoughts.
Any reaction to your accent?
Not that I know of. Have I got an accent?
No, not now.
Talking about accents. When I was at the Cellulose [Cellulose Australia Ltd] - I was in the store studying accounts see - one of the fitters came over - sent over by the maintenance engineer about something or other - and he said, 'Oh these so and so Poms,' you see. And I kept a straight face, you see. And I ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 22. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
said, 'Hey look here Frank. Watch your so and so step, I'm a Porn.' He said, 'Of course, of course,' he said, 'there's Poms and Poms.' (laughs)
Where were you working then?
I was at the Cellulose. When they were building the Cellulose I was in the store. Oh, this is years later. That was only by the way, you see. So when you brought it up about the accent.
Let's talk more about your time at Copley. What do you remember of going out that far and the landscape? How did it strike you?
Well, I'd seen pictures and so on. I thought it's dry and arid, and the people. What impressed me was the way it was different from the green grass of England, but I thought, 'Oh well, that's the Australian bush,' and that's it. You just sort of accept it.
So anyway I got there. I don't know if it was the same day or not. I was taken down. I can milk a cow and ride a horse - that part was all right - but I'd never killed a sheep, you see. So part of my job was to kill the ration sheep - -
Kill the - - -?
What we called the ration sheep. They'd pick out sheep to cull or something like that. Never killed lambs of course. And I'd have to kill them and then I'd take it up to the, what we called government house. It was the manager's - station manager's house. It was on the other side of the creek, way up, you see. So I'd have to cart this sheep way up the hill. And they'd have a big meat house. Oh, it would be a lot bigger than this room. Wired with a thatched roof. Then inside that was a big meat safe as long as that wall and about six or seven feet high - completely fly wired. You could walk in, hang the sheep up. And you'd leave it overnight and the next day you'd have to go down and cut it down. Wouldn't have a saw in those days. You used to have to do it with a cleaver. Then you'd cut it up for whoever wanted it. Of course the boss would always have the best of the meat but there still would be plenty of it. And that was that.
Anyway I was coming to that when - - -. The next day I was taken down. I think I went to the big house that morning. I was told where they were and one thing and another. I was taken down - a chap - he didn't let me do any- thing. He showed me how to kill a sheep and the next sheep I was entirely on my own - no help, no nothing. And it took me about two hours. I had to stop and think, you know - bend it over, cut the throat - what do I do next? And ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 23. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
you'd work on gradually. I picked up a bit of speed. More speed after that. I was never a top rate butcher but at least I could make a reasonable job of killing and skinning a sheep.
The funny part about it there. There was four pigs that ran loose. There was a sow and three barrows - that 's a doctored male. And sometimes when I was out after the cows in the morning you'd see them a mile down the horse paddock, ambling around. But as soon as they heard the knife sharpened, they'd be round the killing pen. You'd take the sheep out and they'd be snort- ing. And they'd wait and you'd take the skin off - As you take the skin off there was a shed alongside - you painted it with the stuff and dry it out to preserve the skin. Then you'd gut the sheep and everything ready - everything ready on the ground - and then you'd put a bag over it and take the gambrel and put it over your shoulder. And as soon as you'd left, in they'd go and clean up all the innards and the leftovers you see.
And in the daytime they used to spend most of the day snoring off in the night horse's stall. Used to always have a night horse. If there was anybody wanted any extra horses they'd go round the horse paddock. The night horse was for me to get the cows in you see. There were other stalls there if anybody urgent wanted them. But I'd always have the night horse, that I'd have to go round and bring them in you see. They used to use that horse for the cows. And they'd be snoring off in the stall. So that was my first couple of days there you see.
Where else was I? Oh, another job was - - -. The boss had a 1924 Buick tourer, and he was Douglas Gordon. I think his father was Sir David Gordon who was in the Legislative Council and I think they were part owners and Kidman had the major interest I think. And this old Buick. Instead of - - You wouldn't be able to use a grease gun. It had those little caps - you had to fill her up with this black oil, and half the time they'd be up this way. Some would be all right, you know, screw it up. Get this way and you'd finish up with bloomin' black oil all over you if it got you.
What other jobs was there I had to do? Oh, help around the place you know. I can't think what other jobs. Oh yes, when they were shearing - - When the shearers were there - I think they had a ten stand shed - they took me off that and then another chappy used to be butcher and he used to help the cook and he'd do the killing. And I used to do a bit of the local mustering. Take sheep out of the shed and put them in another paddock, and that type of thing. I was getting acclimatised, you know. Riding horses. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 24. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
I remember one day there was a night horse they gave me was Nellie, and she only had one eye. The other had been damaged with a stick or something and she couldn't see too well in the right - - I don't know if it was the right or left. I think the left eye was the damaged one. See, I'd been reading about buckjump riding and horses, pig rooting and one thing and another, he said, 'If you shorten your reins and run your thumbs up, well, they duck their head. And I tried it on Nellie one day. Luckily I picked a piece of sand. And of course she ducked her block and she went that way and I went that way, you see. (laughs) First time I ever tried it - the last too.
Oh, that went on for some months. I was killing and - - -. And then at that time they had a bit of a drought on. It was in May - early '28 anyway. They had one big paddock which had a fair amount of feed in - I think it was about ten miles square. I'm not sure of that. It was a big paddock anyway. And there was plenty of feed one end but no water. So they had a well which was on the way out from Copley to their station which had tons of water you see. So they put a pipeline in. And, of course, being fine and dry they'd camped in a hollow and they just got everything fixed up with all the troughs down and the dogs' legs, you know - the dogs' legs protect the troughs and so forth - and filled it up with water, ready to leave, and down came the rain. (laughter) So they all arrived at the station and nobody could do anything for two or three days. Couldn't move anywhere. I mean, I had my job because that was no bother but, nobody was, you know, what do you call it? - able to get around. And the first car to get through to Copley was a Model T Ford. Oh, I've forgotten when I left them.
Do you remember how much you were earning?
A pound a week and keep. Because I got into a row because a hawker came round and I went into debt temporarily. I bought an Akubra sombrero.
What's that name?
Akubra - it's a well known hat brand I think. They're still going. I've got an ordinary hat as well - that brown one I wear is an Akubra.
After that I'm not too sure when I left actually. In fact I'm not even sure whether I got the sack or left. I think it was mutual I think. Because I - being young and bigheaded I suppose - I wanted to be a station hand. I didn't want to be milking cows around the place.
So I stopped at the Copley Hotel for two or three days and was looking around for a job unsuccessfully, and two chaps came through. They'd worked ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 25. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
on Myrtle Springs. One was Frank Hansen. He was an old bushman. He had a - - -. Most of the station hands in those days had their own horses and gear, but old Frank had oh, seven, or about half a dozen and a couple of pack horses. He was an old bearded bushie. And the other chap was a bit older than me. He was Cliff Dean. He was a brother to Dasher Dean the boxer, I believe anyway. And they came into town and they were on their way to Queensland which in those days was the working man's utopia sort of thing. Fairytales of course. And so I joined up with them. I bought a horse or used one of Frank's horses. Anyway I bought a saddle. And we started on our trek to Queensland.
We went down through Beltana, out through Blin man, Wirrealpa Station. Of course you'd get handouts all the way - not need to - - Call in a station - always give you a feed and some meat to take. Would in those days.
Which station did you mention?
Went through Beltana which was a railway station then, and Blinman which is - - I think one of these tourist people own the town now. It was a small town then. Wirrealpa was the station on the way. I don't know - I can pick out the stations but I can't remember - - I can do it on the map and tell you which station's which because I know the route we'd taken - do you want to see?
Yes.
[Looks at map] There's Myrtle Springs, there's Copley. And we went from Copley down the road to Beltana. Then we must've used back tracks because we went across this way to Blinman. Then from Blinman, Wirrealpa Station and a champion whip cracker there gave us a demo while we were there too. Now, we went down here. I don't remember Martin's Well - they may have added the name. We went through Erudina, Curnamona, Telechie, Kalabity, Boolcoomata. Then we went on to Mingary. Then we went up to Cockburn and from Cockburn we went down through Burta Station. Now, where's the river. This is a later map. Went through Burta. Middle Camp we went to and we hit a station down there - and I think they called it Netley. It doesn't show here. It was a fair way down below Menindie, somewhere across here.
Netley?
I think so, I'm not sure because it was a long time ago and some of the stations don't show on some of the maps you see. Then we went up to Menindee. Of course these lakes didn't exist then - they were dry clay pans. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 26. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
And up the river - Tintinallogy to Wilcannia. Then we went up the Paroo [River] - Momba. I don't remember Mandalay. I remember Tonga, N ocoleche.
When we got to Nocoleche Frank got a job there. So they left us sort of out on our own. What Cliff did I don't know but we had two or three days' work there. And then, there's a chap there - round the place - named Snowy Phillips who's a horse breaker cum drover cum buckjump rider. He sort of took me under his wing. And then we went up to - - -. There's a station here on another map - Willara. We called it Willara - I think it's spelt Willara. It's about eighteen miles south of the Queensland border.
How would you spell it?
Willara. I've got it on another map somewhere. It doesn't show on this one. They've altered some of the names. Or either put other stations up or sold them, I don't know. I know it was quite a big station, Willara.
Then Snowy picked me up and he had a job to go back there later. And we came down back through Willara, back to Wilcannia. What did we do then? We stopped a day or two at Wilcannia. Then we went back up to Wanaaring. I might be a bit mixed up here. We went up to Willara. Snowy had some horses to break in there. I was the of fsider. That was a station. They had a white manager and white overseer, white station hand to keep him company, a white cook and a white gardener and all the rest were Aborigines - part or full. And they had a camp - they show it a river [Paroo], it's a chain of water holes actually.
What did they call it?
They called it - - -. It's down as Paroo River but actually it's a chain of water holes. When it's not raining it's all water holes.
And on the other side of the - oh, river we'll call it - was the black's camp. And it was littered with early model Studebakers.
How do you account for that?
They all worked. They worked on the - most of them worked on the station. Occasionally you'd see a crew having a walk about and out after a kangaroo or an emu. But shearing time there impressed me. The shearing shed. Apart from the wool classer who was obviously white, the rest of the shed were black, white and brindle - all working away. No bothers. All colours. And the station blacksmith also was a so-called expert - did the combs and cutters for the shearers - he was half Aborigine and half Chinese. Billy Dolly was his name. And he was clever with his hands. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 27. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
What were your impressions of the Aborigines?
Well those up there - I mean, apart from the camp - were just like any other people. They worked well, they spoke well. I didn't see any evidence of any drink or anything. I suppose the nearest pub was Hungerford, but - - I had quite a bit to do with them because after we'd broken in some of the horses and used them around, they'd come and take them away, and they'd be up talking to us and round the yard and so forth. And the crew there weren't any different to anybody else as far as I could see. They dressed - - -. Well, I mean for station hands they were always neat enough. Worked well. Spoke alright, you know. There was no bother with them. That crew anyway. They were quite good. And the shearing shed, well you wouldn't notice any difference from any other shed, just the way they worked. I mean, whether it's altered since then or not I don't know. But that was my impression there. There was two others Snowy knew quite well down in Wilcannia. They were station hands. They was all well spoken, well behaved, looked after themselves.
What did you observe of the relations between blacks and whites as you were travelling around?
The ones we saw up there were at Willara and the two - I can't think of their names now - that Snowy knew round Wilcannia. They were no different to any other people. They worked and talked and - - I don't know whether they had any drink or not. I never saw any drunk. Smoked and talked, and talked work and everything like that.
Were their Aborigines working on the Copley Station?
No. No there weren't any around there that I can recall. The only, what would you call 'foreigner', was an Afghan. He used to ride the - - -. Had some camels. He used to ride the netting fence repairing it. He used to come in once a month. They'd have a sheep - he'd be some Afghan religion - he'd have to kill his own sheep. But if there was only one sheep in and I needed that he'd go down and he'd cut the sheep's throat and take the head. And then the next day I'd get one in and he'd kill that. And what's that period there they don't eat between sunrise and sunset? They've got a name for it - I can't think what it is. But he was well dressed.
Somebody took some photos. I've looked through photos that might be interesting, but I can't find - - Of course in those days not too many could afford a camera. But somebody took some photos of him. But what happened to them I don't know. Old A mir Khan. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 28. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
What was his name?
Well, I don't know how to spell it. We used to call him A mir Khan. He was quite good. He'd come up the station kitchen. All the station buildings were on the lower side of the creek from the 'government house' as we called it. And he come up there and had a drink of tea and a yarn. He'd have a natter, you know. 'What're you going to do when you retire, Amir?' He said, 'Oh, I'll go back to Afghanistan and have a couple of wives.' Somebody said, 'You dirty old so and so. Two wives!' He said, 'My brother has three.' (laughs) Just like that, you know. He was quite good.
Tell me about your travels through New South Wales. What was the travelling like?
It varied actually. You see we'd - - In those days the - what do you call them - hobbo, or tramps. There weren't very many and looking for jobs they could always get a handout. Of course us being on horses we were the aristo- crats you see. You'd call in at the station. You'd nearly always have a meal at the men's quarters and you'd ask for a handout. And that was generally a quarter of a sheep. Oh, flour, sugar and - what else? Only flour and sugar - basics. But if you ran out of baking powder, you'd use Salvital or something like that, you know, it depends. Most of them were pretty good because I remember, somewhere down near - I think it was Burta Station - one of them anyway. I called in there. We used to take turns to go in, you see. And they'd see you riding up on a horse and, 'Where're you off to?', you know - 'Going through to Queensland.' How many of you are there?' I called on this place and the chap getting round with a real battered old hat on. You know the dark grey flannel - not shirts, but sort of under-singlet, you know. Motor type braces and a pair of dark serge trousers and blucher boots.
What sort of boots?
Oh, blucher boots. They're a sort of a cheap working boot with - - I'm damned if I can describe it. Sort of a suedey look on the outside, only rough. They were cheap working boots.
And did you say motor tyre - - -?
Yes, car tyre braces - home made. And I said, 'Where's the boss?' Right here son.' He said, 'What're you doing.' I said, 'Oh, couple of mates and I, we're heading through to Queensland with horses and looking for a job.' He said, 'No work here at the moment. I'll fix you up with a handout.' So we got quite a good handout. I found out afterwards him and the family owned about five stations. (laughter) ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 29. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8.507
What was another incident on that? We hit the river [refers to the map]. This one's a funny one. There's a Henley Station here somewhere and I think it's just above Menindie. It might show on an early map because those lakes didn't exist then as I said. Oh, Menindie. One impression of Menindie - they had the river fishermen. They had made huts out of old oil drums and kero- sene tins and all sorts. Opened out - flattened them out, banged them together, you know. Rough as bags, but I suppose they kept water out. Anyhow, we got to this Henley Station. It was on the other side of the river you see. So, oh, we couldn't make anybody hear. There was a dinghy moored the other side.
So Cliff and I decided we'd both go over. So we took our clothes off and - you know, shirt and trousers - and tied it round our head, then we both forgot and dived in. (laughs) The river wasn't that deep actually. It was deep enough to swim. So we got over there, put our clothes on. Told them - they laughed like hell at the joke. Anyhow we got a fair handout - some mutton and flour and gear - then they rowed us back across the [Darling] river. And that was one episode on the track.
Then when we got to Wilcannia - - We must have hit Wilcannia on a Wednesday because the shops were shut, you see, and we had a few bob left - not too much. Thought I'd go and buy some meat and the shops were shut. So we waited until dark and, of course then there was a big commonage at Wilcannia - you know, an area around that people could graze their — [stock]. Not too many cows. They all had goats. For milk as goats are pretty hardy. So we'd decided we'd knock a goat off for meat you see. So Cliff's a bit ahead of me and we both got our sheath knives, you know, ready for the job. Cliff spots a goat and makes a drive. What he couldn't see was the wire fence. He hit the fence, came back and hit me. We both went base over apex, and that was the end of the goat episode. So we got some meat the next day.
Then, I think, we started to go up to Paroo. There's nothing much there. I think we got a handout at Momba - that was beef. That was a cattle station then. Tonga was the same. I don't know what we did at - - I can't remember much about Wanaaring. Oh no Wanaaring was - - -. We got to Nocoleche which was a cattle station being turned into a sheep station. And, as I said, Frank got a job then. Of course that deprived us of horses and so forth. As I said, I don't know what Cliff did. Must've gone on to Wanaaring. And this chap Snowy Phillips sort of took me over as a - - ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 30. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
So that Cliff and Frank decided not to go on at that stage?
Well, you see - - I think Frank was getting so he didn't have any money, but he had horses and it was a job. He was a station hand, cattle man and sheep man and so forth. So when they offered him a job at Nocoleche he took it, you see. Well, it left us on a limb for a moment and we had to forget about Queensland. We had to survive. I don't know what Cliff did, to be honest.
Did you have every intention when you started out of working in Queensland and staying indefinitely or, what do you remember?
Well I did actually. Because in those days to anybody down south - - In fairytale talk Queensland was the working man's Mecca, you see. And I wanted to work outback, so I thought, head to Queensland. I didn't quite make it. Anyway Snowy sort of took me over as a godfather, or friend - took pity on me I suppose.
What age man was he?
Oh, Snowy would be in his forties. He could write his own name, saved a few bob, but - - -. He was a first class horse breaker, good drover, pretty good horseman. His ambition was to run his own buck jump show and I was to drive the truck. (laughs) It didn't come to pass anyway. The Depression was catching up. I think he must have been on his way back from Willara, and he took me over.
And we came back to Wilcannia. I don't think we had jobs in the mean- time. Oh, I remember doing a small job at Wanaaring, but I can't remember whether it was before or after. There was another young feller there. They had a bore with a fence round. He had the job repairing the fence and I gave him a hand and got paid for that. But I can't remember whether that was before or after.
Anyway the next time we went up to Willara to break the horses in. That's the time we saw the shearing and so forth. And having done that we came back and camped at Wanaaring for a day or two. And there was a chap named Bert Date - he preferred to be called Bert Jones. The New South Wales government had - for returned soldiers - had given them - - -. Not given - it's a bad term I suppose - but allocated blocks of land for them to - - -. They could run a grazing property and one thing and another. And those who were on the river if they had water they got forty thousand acres and - - I'm not too sure. It was on this side I think.
On the western side? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 31. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Yes, I think so. And the other chap, this Bert Jones as he preferred to be called, had eighty thousand acres. And he was going to shear and he wanted Snowy as a cook. So - - Oh, that was it. I was doing the job helping the chap on the fence to get a few bob, while Snowy was out at Jones's place. Then I went out there. Snowy had his horses there. And at the same time they - about the same time, I'm a bit hazy - there was a bit of a drought on in Queensland. There were some people from up Thargomindah way had brought some cattle down - -
Where's that?
END OF TAPE 2 SIDE A: TAPE 2 SIDE B
Yes, I did the job helping the chap with his fence round the bore paddock, and Snowy was out cooking for - - -. They had two shearers. Only one chap was a - - -. Can't remember the name now. One chap came from Bourke and the other chap - oh, he was originally from Bourke but he was a two hundred a day man in Queensland when he worked the sheds. And they had one of these two stand plants, you know. One's the wrong way around. And the younger brother, he's about two-thirds the size of the big one - he was the top shearer and Snowy was cooking - to see him shearing and he [shearing noise] - no bother at all. I think - - -. Didn't have that many sheep but he helped him out.
And at the same time these other people came down. Because old Bert had had a big bore put down - a big Southern Cross mill - and - - Oh, he'd gone down about nine hundred odd feet. And Bert reckoned he was being taken down. He kicked up a fuss and got in touch with the New South Wales Agriculture - or whatever department it was - and they come up and checked. And there was ample supply of water at four hundred feet. So he said, 'You're only getting paid for four hundred' So that supplied the water, you see. And these Thargomindah chaps had a few hundred head of cattle then. I've forgotten their names now. So that fixed up that.
And then came back to Wilcannia. I'm not too sure of my dates on this. And we came back to Wilcannia. We used to camp on the corn monage there, about a mile out of town. Oh, we came back through Momba, the big fence there - the six foot dog fence there - there was a young cattle dog been left behind by somebody so we adopted him and took him with us. And one night - - -. I've forgotten what was on. It must have been some celebration of some sort. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 32. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
And Snowy and I were walking back from the town out to our camp on the corn monage, and we looked behind and there was a small mob of goats follow- ing. The dog's bringing it along. I said, 'Oh get the dog, Snowy'. He said, 'No, no, no,' he said, 'Race out and get the gun.' So I shot inot the wagonnette and got the shotgun and put a couple of shells in. He said, 'Spread those so and so goats out.' So he shot one goat - a young kid goat. And we killed and skun it that night and dug a deep hole and put all the other bits and pieces in and put a lot of rocks on top and stones and then put leaves over the top and stamped it down and hung it in a tree till it set and we cut it down the next morning.
And we were having roast goat for lunch, with spuds and onions in the camp oven. And old Laurie Mitchelberg the common ranger came up. And 'How you going Snowy?', because he knew Snowy pretty well. 'Oh, not bad.' And he said, 'What you up to Laurie?' 0h,' he said, 'one of Mum's goat's missing. Can't find it, young kid.' Snowy said, 'Oh, somebody might have knocked it off.' you know, just like that. So he said, 'Stop for lunch.' Oh,' he said, 'don't mind if I do.' And he sat down and had a feed of roast lamb. 'By hell,' he said, 'there's no doubt about Dell as a butcher. Boy, he sells good lamb, doesn't he?' Snowy said, 'My word, no doubt about it.'
What was the butcher's name?
Dell, I think was his name. Dell was the butcher in Wilcannia. Closed on Wednesday afternoons.
And there's a few other anecdotes. Did I tell you the one - - -. The Paroo was - for south west Queensland - was a sort of a stock route for Broken Hill, you see. And a lot of these south west Queensland cattle would come down. They'd come down the Paroo and then go from Wilcannia to Broken Hill to the yards, you see. Pre-truck days. One chap there - I think it was Stan Nichols his name - he was a bit of a character. He was bringing a mob of cattle down - it wasn't a big mob. And there's another chap here at Mount Murchison Station. I've forgotten his name now. He was reputedly a pretty mean old bod and kept a poor relation to drive him round in the car. I think he was a bit handicapped. So Stan had overlooked the twenty-four hours' notice on movement on the stock route, you see.
So he came up and blowing hell out of Stan. So Stan said, 'Oh, look Mr so and so,' he said, 'I'm killing a beast tonight,' he said. 'I'm sorry I missed about the notice but,' he said, 'would you like a hindquarter of beef?' And the old bod being greedy, said, 'Oh yes, I'd love that.' What he didn't know is Stan bribed him with a hindquarter of one of his own bullocks. (laughter) Oh, funny. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 33. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8.507
Now, where are we? I haven't quite finished with Wilcannia. Last time there Snowy got a job on Murtee Station.
Which Station's that?
Murtee - there. There was a bit in the paper the other week. Somebody'd been growing marijuana there. Looked too dry to me. It was about seven or eight, nine miles out of Wilcannia, and I was camped on the commonage. And then there was a chap in Wilcannia - they had a bit of a deli and cool drink shop - named Herb Gates. He was supposed to take a job as drover's cook to take some sheep down from - oh, it's not on the map - the station called Tarella out near White Cliffs. And there'd been some local rains and kanga- roos were around so he wanted to go kangaroo shooting. So he asked me if I wanted the job - I'd take the job. So I said, 'OK, I'll do it. I can cook in the camp oven anyway.'
So I went up to Tarella and then we went down to Broken Hill with a mob of sheep. It only took us three or four weeks. Then we come down - - I can't remember the name of the station. It's not far out of - - Oh blimy, there's a Glen Gowrie there - what d'you know? (laughter) We came down here and we - - I think we hit it about Little Topar Tank and then we went into Broken Hill yards.
And the other two chaps who'd both worked on that station, they went back by coach. You know, the service car, to Wilcannia and then to White Cliffs. And I had to take the horse and wagon - the horses and wagon - out to - - -. It doesn't show there. There's a place about - I think it was Far mcote. It's about - a few miles out of Broken Hill. I think that's the name of the place - Far mcote. It belonged to the same people who had the Tarella Station up near White Cliffs. Pity I didn't have a decent map because of these places I mention aren't even shown on it.
And then I went out there - Far mcote. Took the horses back. And on the way back he was going to drive me into Broken Hill so I could take a service car back to Wilcannia. And on the way he sees a big eagle hawk sitting on a fence near a dam. Pulls out his old shotgun, 'Bang, bang, bang, bang.' It just flies away. (laughs) Wasted shots. Anyway, that's only an afterthought.
Anyway I caught the coach and went back to Wilcannia and there was a job waiting for me at Murtee. I was back to cowboy, killing sheep and milking cows. So I stuck that out for a little while and then I said goodbye to Snowy and I went back to Adelaide. Of course Dad had gone. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 34. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Let's just talk a little bit more about this time. You mention the term 'cowboy'. Is that what that is known as?
Yes, it's entirely different to the American version. Well, I don't know what it is now on the stations, but in those days the cowboy was a junior person who killed the ration sheep and milked the cows. That's where it came from.
So it's almost a derogatory term as opposed to the American one?
Oh, yes, yes. You see, there, what the cowboy is is a station hand. I wanted to be a station hand you see.
Why did you decide to go back to Adelaide at this stage?
I don't really know. I was probably unsettled. I didn't fancy the idea of the job at Murtee of milking cows and killing sheep. And the station manager's wife was a ex sister and I didn't particularly like her much. She said they thought about getting me a job as a jackaroo but changed their mind. I think that was the sort of deciding point. A jackaroo's a sort of a trainee station manager. So I thought, well - so back I go to Adelaide.
About what date did you get back to Adelaide?
Oh, I'm not too sure. It'd be some time in '29 I think. I'd had a couple of years wandering around you see.
You never did return to the land as perhaps you'd planned to do.
No. I went back to Adelaide and then - - -. What did I do then? I helped a farmer out at Lameroo for two or three weeks with some seeding and fencing. I don't know how I got to know him. I wasn't there very long.
How did you travel back to Adelaide from Broken Hill?
Train.
Were your mother and brother still in Adelaide?
Yes, they were out in North Adelaide at that time. Dad had gone back and they were stopping at North Adelaide. They had a boarder - an old Scotch- man. I think he was a remittance man of some sort. He had quite good connections, but I think he liked his liquor a bit too much at times. I think his brother was some senior officer in the Army or something at Edinburgh Castle or something like that. And anyway he knew somebody in the Woods and Forests Department.
Before we go on to the South-East, do you know why your mother and brother had stayed on when you father had returned? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 35. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Yes. Didn't have enough money for fares. As simple as that. (laughs) So the idea was, well if Dad could get a job - they'd found a job for him - they'd manage. That was that, you see. When they raised a fare over there Mum and Gerry could go back.
And what sort of work had they found for your father in England, do you know?
I don't really know. It wasn't his normal trade. It was mixed up with a big manufacturing company. Pm not too sure - I don't know whether it was Dunlop. I'm not too sure to be honest. But I know he had work and he raised the money and then Mum and Gerry went back.
Were you pleased to see your mother again after all that time?
I suppose I was, you know. It's hard to say. Sort of, I don't know, at that age I suppose you take it for granted. You know, you walk in after a couple of years and say, 'Goodday Mum,' as if it was yesterday sort of thing. You know, it's very hard to place.
You must have changed a lot in those two years.
I think I had. I got a bit older. I don't know if I got any wiser. (laughs)
Did you look the part of a bushie by that stage?
Oh no. I had - - I'd bought myself some clean slacks and shirt - not Oxford bags, but you know, I suppose flannel trousers in those days. And clean shirts. They used to do their own washing. Didn't do too much ironing though. You'd wash your shirt and dry it on a bush and put it on again if you didn't have a spare. But when I - - -. Because I'd saved a few bob when I was on Murtee Station and went to town a couple of times, so bought myself some trousers and that to be more or less respectable when you went into town. So I wasn't that bad. A damned sight better dressed than some of them are now. (laughter)
And did you have any plans at this stage for the future?
No, I hadn't planned a thing to be honest. The most thing was a job and existence I suppose, you know. Because things were tightening up. Anyhow this old Scotchman knew somebody in the Woods and Forests and I got a job down at Mount Burr Forest. Then of course the Depression was starting. Oh, it was on its way I suppose.
Had you noticed the Depression setting in in any way?
Well jobs seemed scarcer and money seemed tighter. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 36. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Did you see more people on the road in New South Wales?
Well, see, no. The parts we were in were sort of way out for people carrying the swag, you see. I mean, we were on horses and it was - - -. See, the places we went, across country and places like that, you wouldn't get the normal swaggy. Though they might stick to the river because there was plenty of water and the stations weren't very far apart.
If they got way out in the bush, in places you got twenty or thirty miles between water. I mean we were going up, before we got to Tonga there one day, we'd counted on a dam - there was Snowy, I and the horses - and when we got there, the dam was dry. So we had the wagonette and we used to have cleaned out petrol tins, four gallon jobs - so we gave the two horses in the wagonette a hatful of water each, and we slapped a bit of water on the others' mouths just to keep them damp a bit, and we pushed on to - - -. Then we took a short cut to Tonga station - the back way instead of the main road - and - - -. Where's Tonga. [refers to map] There's Tonga there. That was a dirt - - I don't know what it is now but it was a dirt road then. Going through all reed swamps, you know, and that type of thing. We went in the back way and there was a water hole there.
There was one horse there - we called her Kate. She looked a bit like a mule with her big ears. I was pushing some of them back, she'd drank that much. She fell over in the water, you know. All dry. But that's the closest we ever got.
But, I mean, you can understand why the swaggies wouldn't walk that way. I mean the stations were far apart. If they were looking for a job or a handout, the stations were too far apart. See, Momba's about forty miles out of Wilcannia and I don't think - - -. Though there is a bit of water in between. Where are we? Momba. See, there's a tank there - that's twelve miles out. There's a tank there. Not necessary they haven't got any water in them either. You've got twelve, twenty-six, thirty-six to forty-three to Momba. Well, there's not a great deal of water there and there's no places where they might get a job, or a handout for that matter. So you wouldn't see too many. You'd see odd ones round the river. Some were professionals and others were looking for work. (laughs)
But most places in those days you'd get a handout. They'd take you in to have a meal. All depends where you were. If you - - -. Particularly, I forget, N etley on the river there. They called in. They said, 'Oh, put the horse in the yard and come and have a feed.' So we went in the - - I think most of the ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 37. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
station hands were in at the station at the time. Of course Netley then was a big station. Went back about ninety miles from the river. And we had a big blow-out. I've forgotten what we had for dessert and one thing or another, and they filled the tucker bags more or less and we went on our way.
Did you ever get turned down?
Not that I can remember, to be honest. I think if we had we'd have remembered it. In those days, where we went, the swaggies weren't that plentiful, and if you're travelling through on horses - - I don't know. It looked to me they regarded it more as a duty. Sometimes they'd give you cooked meat. I don't know if they wanted to get rid of it or not but it was always good. Or, perhaps because they didn't have enough, raw meat, you see. But in most places we'd get a - being three of us, and I think being on horses sort of lifted our social character a bit, you see - you'd get a fore- quarter. I mean a fair sized forequarter which'd last a day or two for the three of them. We never had any dogs with us, not then anyway. Snowy and I picked up the dog.
Oh, that's funny. I'll break the thing to talk about a dog? Talking about dogs. We were coming back one day and we - - I don't know what station it was. It was somewhere way up the river. Not a station water holes. Some- where up here there were some water holes. Anyhow there was ducks on it. We'd had a bit of rain. We couldn't get a duck - oh, blast it, we'll camp. We had one tin of sausages and something or other. It was a tin of something which was basically meat - tinned stuff - and that was all we had. And we had dried - - -. Always had dried apricots. You nearly always had rice. And Snowy looked at me and I looked at Snowy and we opened the can and gave it to the dog. (laughter) So we had apricots and rice.
You said when you were with Snowy, he had a wagonette. Did he, as well as the horses?
Oh yes, we had - - -. There was a grey horse and - - -. What was the name of that one? The one that fell over in the creek - the one with big ears. Wagon- ette. It wasn't a big one. And there was old - - -. There was another horse we called Twenty-two and we never rode him. He was a buckjump job. He was called Twenty-two because he had a 22 brand on his neck. There was one we called Bluey - he was a blue roan. He used to - he had a sort of maternal respect for the grey horse who was in the buggy. Perhaps he'd left his mother early or something like that. We had four or five horses.
And would you ride on the horses or in the buggy or change about? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 38. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
One of us would take the buggy and one would ride. Keep your eye on the other horses. See what was going on. And then when we camped on the corn monage we used to let them all go. The wagonette - we were about a mile up in town - I've forgotten the name of it. I think they called it Steamer Point - I'm not sure. Why I don't know, because at one stage there the river was low. I know I walked across the Darling River and never got my knees wet. And the water was as clear as crystal. That's why nobody could catch any fish. You'd see fish swimming around there. You'd get to deeper stretches and see fishes swimming around. But you'd never ever catch any. They could see and wouldn't bite. But we'd catch the horses. If we wanted one we would wait. When they come to have a drink about once a day, you'd catch them when they came down. Catch one of them. Once you'd got one you'd get the lot. But if we camped out anywhere else, you'd put the hobbles on you see.
Did you have any contact with your family during this period you were travelling around?
None whatsoever. I'm not a great letter writer. In fact I'm a very poor letter writer as a matter of fact.
So you wouldn't have known your father had gone back?
Oh, wait a minute, I did. See, I didn't know what spot I'd be in. I think Dad left when I was at Myrtle Springs but I'm not sure. I think I did get some word. I can't remember. It's going way back and I suppose being selfish I was that tied up with my own worries, trials and tribulations to think about any- thing else. Where are we now?
Well, you'd returned to Adelaide. Was there any question of you going back to England with your family?
No there wasn't then, because Mum and Gerry were still here. Gerry was going to school in North Adelaide. And my main concern was get a job, and they didn't know when they'd be going back anyway you see. I think they went back when I was down the South-East. They knew where I was. They let me know, I think. They just wrote and said 'Good luck.' Of course I was down the South-East for a good few years.
Then they got a - - I think Mum wrote me a letter. I don't know whether they - - -. As soon as I had the fare or they'd raised the fare or what, would I like to come back to England? And I said, well, I wasn't very anxious about going back to England, but if I did go back I'd go to Canada. So I didn't hear anything for a long time after that. I had no intention of going ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 39. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
back to England to stay. Oh, I suppose my memories weren't that bad, but I didn't like the climate, and I preferred the Australian climate and way of life.
What did you see as the main difference between the way of life that you'd left behind?
Well I suppose living in a London suburb, with everything sort of fenced in, houses joined together. To get freedom of movement and that sort of thing, you know. Please yourself what you do. Particularly in the bush. To a larger extent, anyway, it's a different outlook. You've got a different climate. The South-East can get wet on occasions, but it's still not the same. More open air. In England you only had a few parks.
One thing people often say comparing the two countries, is that England was so much more class conscious than Australia. A more stratified society.
Oh. Yes, that reminded me of something. I remember when I was at secondary school there was one or two snobs around. And one bod stuck his nose up at me because I delivered newspapers. I don't know about helping the milkman, whether that had helped or not. But I mean, nothing to do with him anyway. He probably resented it because I was there on a scholarship and he wasn't. (laughs) Oh, they had a little bit, but generally I would say that with most of the lads I mixed with in England it wasn't very apparent.
The group I used to go to school with, we used to - - -. A lot of the time we used to walk. I had a pushbike. I got a pushbike for getting the scholar- ship, but you were supposed to ride a long way around and then you've got to put the bike away somewhere and things like that, you know. There are odd instances.
Down the end of the street there was a - - Over the other side of Bowes Road there was a big estate. I think it belonged to a Lord Inverforth. We used to trespass on it occasionally. There was an orchard in it. One place we used to go and pinch a few apples occasionally. We got chased by keepers occasionally. They never caught us.
Oh, we got pulled up for trespassing once. There was a place called Coughley. I think we used to catch a train there for fourpence halfpenny return from Palmer's Green. We used to go out there because it was more of less open. I mean, there were suburban houses, but the Mrs Miniver style of place, you know. Out with a few acres and that type of thing. We'd go out there and there was crab apples. We'd wander around for a look, you know, just to - - I know we got pulled up one day by some chaps for so-called trespassing. I think they were Railway Police, but we weren't on Railway ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 40. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
property. Dick Wilding was with us. Dick and I gave shonky names and addresses. And, Frank White - he lived down number one Highworth Road - he gave the right name and the wrong number. They picked him up through that, you see.
Anyway, they struck Dad in a - not the best of moods, you see. And this chap came to the door, 'I'm so and so.' What's all this about?' I told Dad. Dad said, 'Oh. Were they on Railway property when you pulled them up?' He said, 'No.' He said, 'What the hell are you annoying me for? If they weren't on Railway property, what the devil's it got to do with you? Get out.' We never heard any more about it. (laughter)
So that's only one incidence I can recall. I think that's quite funny. I mean, things come back to you a bit. Dick and I used to have a lot of fun. Ah, now where are we now?
Well, you'd returned to Adelaide and then off to the South-East. What were the circumstances again of going down to the South-East?
Well I was looking for a job mainly, and jobs weren't that plentiful and through this Scotch friend of ours - he knew somebody in the Woods and Forests Department, or I think he did anyway. So I got a job down there and I went down to Mount Burr Forest. And I was sort of a general rouseabout. Francis Kay was the Forester in charge. He was one of those originally responsible for pines in South Australia I think. I think Julius was the Con- servator. I think the earliest planting was in about nineteen hundred and seven. Anyway, I went down there and I had to milk his cows.
Back to that.
Oh, he only had a couple anyway. Didn't make much. I was sort of general rouseabout round the homestead. Groomed the horse. We had a - - -. A lot of patrol work was done on horses. Sorbey Adams was the Assistant Forester. His father was was the Reverend Sorbey Adams in Jamestown years ago I think. Sorbey used to say, 'You wouldn't think my old man was a so and so parson, would you?' (laughter) And - milked the cows, groomed the horse. I used to have to wash his car. Oh, general jobs around the place, you know. You see there in the summer time, you had to keep a crew around. You had to keep a crew around for the fire truck. They had a six wheeler Thornycroft truck.
What sort of truck? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 41. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8.507
Thornycroft. It was - - -. Drive on the four rear wheels. And they used to have a big water tank that was up on a stand and a portable water tank which would go on the truck, you see - you'd plant it on the truck. And all these knapsacks, you see. And they always had a fire crew around in the summer time and Bill Burdett - he was the blacksmith - he was the chief of the fire crew.
What was his name?
Bill Burdett - an old World War One veteran. Rough as bags but a hell of a good blacksmith. And whoever else was around. They'd always have to keep a crew around for that, you see. There's a bit of a joke - well not exactly a joke. If you got a job that obviously you could do easy in the day, that was a day's work because we used to have a forty eight hour week then. Seven o'clock in the morning old Kay'd come out in his dressing gown and his bed socks and slippers, you see. eyebrows sticking out, and you'd be lined up. 'What do you so and sos want? Work I suppose.' Then he'd line off the jobs, you see. If Bill had a fair bit of blacksmithing to do, somebody would have to help him and - -
END OF TAPE 2 SIDE B: TAPE 3 SIDE A
And then he'd reel off the jobs you see. Obviously some of the jobs take more than a day so that was all right. But they had to be somewhere at hand, you see, in case there was a fire alarm. And I got caught one day. Being a bit young and stupid I finished my job and went back for another one instead of making it last for a day. And guess what I got? Rebagging broken super in a low roofed tin shed, with no ventilation and about a hundred in the shade. (laughs) Only once.
You were bagging broken superphosphate?
Yes. Never again.
Was this the sort of work you'd planned to do - intended to do - when you went to the South-East?
Well I was hopeful I could study and become a forestry student, but there was no way - no means of studying down there. Anyway that lasted quite a while, I had job, and I wanted a bit of a change.
So we're now talking about the period after 1930 are we?
Yes, this was late '29 into '30.
And you were still, of course, only eighteen years of age? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 42. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
About eighteen. And, what did I get then. Oh, the Depression. They'd started to cut back in 19 - in early 1930. No. It'd be after the end of the financial year. It'd be round about August 1930 when they started to cut back the staff to billyo and I think they finished up with eight on part time - half time - and six on full time. I was a junior so they kept me on full time. Had a nice old job of taking the dismissal notices out. They passed it on to me, you know, 'Here's the envelope.' And one - - -. They sacked one foreman, then changed their mind. They had to put the other chap off. It was because he had too much long service, or something like that - he'd been there too long or something.
Anyhow, that only lasted a few months because the - - -. Most of those who were put off went on the rations because there weren't any other jobs around. But I think it wasn't long after, the next year they started - Kay started - got the OK to put the men back on again. Lucky we didn't have a fire that year. Jim my Altschwager, their tractor driver - they had a petrol driven caterpillar tractor which I drove later - -
What was his name?
Altschwager. He was the tractor driver, and Bill Bowering the Foreman, and old Jack Heaver, they kept them on as teamsters. They were ploughing fire- breaks with horse teams. They used to do a lot of break ploughing in those days, you see. Way out Jim my Altschwager would do and they'd do the closer up stuff with horse teams. We used to grow most of our own hay on - not Mount Muirhead, Mount - - Oh, it's on the right hand side of the road going up towards the Mill. Mout Muir I think. Mount Muirhead - that's the one that goes down on to the Millicent Flats. Mount Graham's on the left hand side where the Williams's live. No, Mount Muir. We used to grow hay there for the - and cut our own chaff for the teams. Where was I then?
What were your impressions of Mount Burr when you first arrived? What was the place like?
I rather liked the place, actually. There were pines and pines and pines. And of course there was farmland over the road from the forest camp. I was camped in a small hut. You had to bach and when you were there and look after yourself. I don't know. I rather liked the place. Kay was pretty straightforward and the mob were all friendly, you know. They had their ups and downs and one thing and another but it was quite - - -. No, I rather liked it actually.
How much were you earning when you first went there? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 43. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
When I first started, thirty-five shillings a week. It wasn't a great sum but I think the full basic wage in South Australia at that time was three guineas a week, I think. Oh, there was a shilling a day camp allowance for those out on camp. And then early the next year they started to put people on again. They were, I think it was - - Oh, I lose track of myself, a year or two, out somewhere. They had about two lots of about two thousand acres of stringy- bark to fall - to turn into forest. I'm not too sure what years they were. There was one lot near - -
There was two lots near Glencoe. One near up Lake Edward - Mount Lion. I've forgotton which one was which. Anyhow they put a lot on. Because I wanted a change of job and they sent me out there and I used to help the surveyor and the foreman with - - Of course in the early days it was all ten chain blocks - all ten acres. Dead square because that was regular land but in this stuff being ups and downs and rough stringybark they contoured surveyed then. The blocks were different shapes. They were. Bill Bowering was the foreman. We were out at - - -. We had two lots out there and I've forgotton which one. I think the one up towards Lake Edward was the first one they did. They must have started to fall that round about 1931.
Anyway I'd help him and - the surveyor with that and they burnt that off. You know, you'd go up the hill. He'd have his level you see and straight. And you'd go up and you'd have to hold the thing up and then measure that off, you see, and then he'd mark that. And then you'd go round the top of the crest or whatever it was, you know, and a bit more. And then you'd have all that drawn up. I put the spade through the bloo min' chain at one stage too. (laughter) In the scrub too. That's helpful.
Well that went on for quite a while. And then when they planted it I was helping. The lines were, oh ten feet apart, I think. What we used to do, there was a chap from Glencoe - I've forgotten his name now. What we used to do, we'd go ahead and we had these six foot - they probably weren't jarrah- but six foot posts and they were about so square. We'd run a line out and we'd have these ten foot apart, you see. Then we'd have our line up and we'd - - -. So that those who were digging the holes for the pines, they'd have a line. To keep the posts in line they'd three steps and you'd do four steps with the spade - you know, one, two, three, four, turn them over. And plant the spade in and didn't have a line to go on. We were on that trick quite a while.
Then we used to plant - - Not too sure when we used to plant - mid- year some time or other. And that was the first lot. And then - - -. There must've been another lot. Can't keep track of my jobs. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 44. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
And then, late 1933 they started a survey of timber in the - pine timbers. I think the government paid half and I think the big Victorian paper manu- facturer - could have been APM - helped out too. We started in late '33 on it. And there was also survey jobs for levels. We were running chains up the level, one thing and another. Whether they thought of railway lines or tram lines for the thingamybobs through the scrub. A pair of trousers used to last a fortnight.
Why was that? Oh, the scrub.
Oh, braken fern and one thing and another - lovely. And that went on for quite a while. And that went into 1934 and then they had some chaps from interstate, I think. One later one was New South Wales Commissioner of Forests. Another chap there, clerk - he used to be a Hansard clerk in South Australian Parliament come. I can't think of his name - older chap.
And there was a - - Oh, we had a pair of calipers - there'd be two or you, you see. And you'd - - -. Every so and so, you'd go through a block of pines this way, about breast height you see. You'd sing out the dimensions. The chap behind you'd put it down. And then away you'd go you see. Now on this survey business you'd go so far. You'd go to the top of the hill and then you'd have to run out and do a contour that way, because the surveyor wasn't with you all the time. They had these, what they called, Abney levels. You'd hold - supposed to put them a stick but they used to hold up the thingumy- bob. You'd get the rise and fall - general rise and fall - of the ground. This was all mixed up. You did one job one day and another the next week, but there was thousands of pines, you see, I've forgotten. How far apart. You'd do a row through. Then you'd go over so far and come back. It was to give them some idea of the timber quantities of the pine. They've probably altered a hell of a lot since.
So you managed to stay in full time employment during the Depression?
Oh yes, I was lucky.
Of course the focus of the interview is on the time before 1930 and what I'd like to do now, before fairly briefly running through your work experience up to the present, is just think back over those three rather eventful years before 1930. I am interested in your impressions as an outsider coming in at that time. How did Australia strike you - or Australians?
Well I liked it. I liked the contrast. Climate, people. I never had any - well apart from the joker I told you - I never had any distinction against being a Porn. See a lot of people wondered why I didn't have an accent. The wife reckons I have on odd words. As I said, when I came back from Birmingham ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 45. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
the school kids couldn't understand me for a week or two. But I don't know. I thoroughly enjoyed the place. I mean, generally I had something to do. Frequently it was different. I mean there were odd bits boring, but still you get that anywhere. But I thoroughly enjoyed the place.
You were very young and I think in those three years you probably saw more of the State than most people see in a lifetime.
Yes, that's more luck than judgement. I've often thought I'd like to do a journey of remembrance or something or other, with a four wheel drive, and go back where I went years ago. But I don't think that'll ever come to pass. But it's a nice thought.
Would you say that your found Australians distinctly different than the people you'd come from?
Well I thought they seemed to be more open. They seemed more - tended to call a spade a spade. And the use of the term, you know, 'b' for illegitimates has got umpteen versions in Australia. It can be a compliment, an insult - it's got half a dozen different meanings but I don't think they had that in England.
Were there stories around the fire at night? Were you told about bush law and stories on the way?
No. [misunderstands question] We got very little information about Australia on the boat. One chap on the boat was a cooper - not by name, by trade. What impressed us was no sooner he arrived in Adelaide looking around, he was offered a job. But he had a job to go to in Melbourne or Sydney. So I thought, 'Oh well, beer must be popular here.'
But, I don't know, I reckon I was treated fairly well and there are odd bits and pieces which I don't remember, but mostly it was fairly good. I mean the first Christmas I had in Australia was at the Copley pub. Went in there with a couple of station hands. I had two or three beers and I thought, 'I'd better lay off,' so I suppose I had to stand me turn so I had squash instead. And I felt that shonky in the business I didn't touch squash for about fifteen years. (laughter)
You know, it's a bit like, I don't know, I often joke about fig jam. We were camped out in the forest and we'd call home - and we were camped at one place. One of the plantations was done in 1927 so they called it Canberra, you see. And on the old overland track - it was a bush track in those days, but I believe it is a metal or bitumen road now for fire trucks. They had two other camps, Tumat and Queanbeyan just there close to Canberra. We were camped there and used to go home weekends. And the truck or horse and cart ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 46. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
would bring the food out. And somehow or other they forgot the bloo min' meat. So we lived the best part of a week on bread and fig jam. That was fifty years ago. I've never touched fig jam since.
When was this?
Oh, it'd be in the thirties. It'd be about - oh, could be '33, '34, '35 - some- where round about then anyway. Oh, there was one thing I was going to say about the fires on the forest. There was a big one recently but back in 1934 when Kay was forester, we were on this survey your see. We were out all day Monday. I got called out on Tuesday but on the Monday they were burning this area. It was the other side of Mount Burr. It was about two thousand acres of stringybark, and Kay was the forester. He used to burn off - oh, it'd be March or April. It'd be burned about March or April before things got too wet so that it'd be cleared for working on later on, you see.
They lit this and got a wind change, and they started to evacuate Mount Burr Mill because they thought it'd go that way, but luckily it didn't. We got a wind change and old Kay the forester just about flapped out. Exhaustion I think. They took him down to what we called Bald Hill and stuck him in the wash trough and threw a bucket of water over him. Old Jim Hamilton was a senior foreman, lived at Glencoe. He took over and we got in the - - I don't know what direction it'd be - the top corner near Mount Burr. And we used to have things to light the - - -. Long brass tube with a screw on the end and a wick up this end. You'd fill it up with kerosene you see. We got them and we got these Canadian ice burners which we used as blowlamps, and we went all round this top corner and lit that to get a burn back. It got, I think, Tuesday morning, we got called out. They wanted us to go on the survey. We got called out and I went out Tuesday morning and stopped there till Thursday I think. They had the lights on in Mount Gambier three o'clock in the after- noon they reckon, with the smoke.
The old Mount Gambier road - - -. They've got a new one now that goes past Tantanoola Caves. The old Mount Gambier road used to go up the Glencoe Hill. That was burnt out on either side. Luckily it didn't do much damage. I don't think it burnt anybody out, only waste land and so forth. And then they called in a few trucks and we went up to see what was going on. In the back of the truck - night time. It was Wednesday night - something like that, Wednesday night, Tuesday night. And you could see there's like thousands and thousands of glow worms. Just the burnt stumps. Actually it did a good turn in a way because trousers used to last a lot longer because all ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 47. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
the ground was bare when we went on the surveys. But that was the last decent fire I saw or had anything to do with.
When you were travelling with Frank and then Snowy, did they talk to you about the old bush stories, and traditions of the areas?
No, to be honest - - -. Might have talked about little bits and pieces but mainly, sort of, odd anecdotes and jokes - and odd dirty jokes. You were mostly more interested in day by day bits and pieces you see. I think we were too preoccupied with getting somewhere. I don't remember any particular anecdotes. I've told you one about the goat and the bribery, but I mean they're facts, but I think probably they've gone into history by now. Or everybody apart from me knows about them is dead. (laughs) No, I can't remember much talking about that. There used to be a few old arguments about this, that and other, but not about anything in that line. It was - - I don't know, perhaps they were too close to it. They didn't think about it. It was only till afterwards that you think - - -. I've told you that one about Kidman up at Kadina, didn't I?
No.
That's it. We switched on to SAN one night - radio. I think it was before we had the small tele in the bedroom. It must be a few years back. And they were on bush stories. And they were telling this yarn about - - Oh, it was a long time before Kidman was knighted, I think. This kid's on the rail and there's a bullock running around doing something or other and Kidman's in the yard. Well, this bullock's after him a bit or doing something like that. And the kid says, 'Go it Kidman, go it Kidman.' Anyhow, Kidman finally gets away from the bullock and jumps up on the rail and the kid says 'Good on you Kidman.' He said, 'I've got a handle to my name.' He said, 'That bullock'd caught you you'd have had more than one handle.' (laughs) This is on 5AN.
There was another one about a chap in the Northern Territory. I think he lost an ear or something. A chap was telling him about - - -. He told him some fancy story. He was telling this story about he was up this pub somewhere up in the Northern Territory and he said - the publican said, 'I've got a horse here that nobody can damned well ride.' He said, 'Pll take you on. What's it worth?' So he said, 'You bet me a fiver.' He said, 'I got on the horse,' he said, 'and he bucked like mad,' he said, 'and took me under the clothesline,' he said, 'and that's how I lost my ear.' The chap said, 'Ah, that's interesting.' He said, 'Good on you, have a beer,' and away he went. So this chap said - some few months later, he said, 'That's odd, I'm going up the Territory, I'll call in this place.' ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 48. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
And he said, 'And I called in at this pub and I was talking to the publican, one thing and another. And I said, by the way,' he said, 'I met a feller the other day. He telling me he had a bet with you about riding a bucking horse and then it took his ear off under the clothes line.' He said, 'Oh, who was he?' I said, 'So and so.' He was riding a bucking horse be damned,' he said. 'He got as full as a boot,' he said, 'and fell over near the trough,' he said, 'and a pig bit his ear off.' (laughter) This is SAN. There's other stories but I can't remember. Some were quite serious. About an elderly woman in the bush in Northern Territory and places like that. And some were quite funny like that.
But when we were - - I can't remember any particular anecdotes when we were travelling like that. You know, it was more interest in day to day operations.
They were skilful bushmen that you were travelling with. Did they teach you their skills?
Well they didn't go out of their way to teach you. You sort of picked it up as you went along. Like, getting on a horse, and odd bits and pieces. Don't do this and don't do that. But it was very, very rare. You sort of watched and, you know, getting on a horse and keep this one a bit tight, you know, and don't dig your toe in the horse. The stock saddles we used to use - two 'd's' on each side of the pummel you see. You'd have a strap there - either plaited, because that's the grip you see - and you'd have the reins in one hand and your foot in the stirrup and the knee against the saddle, and you'd sort of over that way.
A lot of saddles haven't got it like that. I was looking at my grand- daughter's saddle. She's only got one. And I was watching some of the kids get on horses. My daughter's got a horse. She doesn't ride it. It's a young one. But the granddaughter's got a couple of horses - they're part Arabs. Somewhere up in the hills somewhere. We were up there the other day and I said, 'Oh blimey, they get on funny. Perhaps the horse is used to it,' you know. It seems to be - - Or perhaps they're short in the leg or something or other.
I've been tossed off a few times but I haven't rid a horse in donkey's ages. I suppose I was a reasonable horseman. I wouldn't class myself as a buck jump rider or anything. But Snowy was quite good. He was what they called a balance rider. He didn't seem to grip. He just seemed to balance. He was a pretty good horseman. Good horse breaker. Every horse he broke in - I don't know how he did - he dropped the reins. He'd stand there with the reins ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 49. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
trailing. No need to tie it up. Just stay there. Now, how he did that I don't know. And I worked with him for quite a while. I don't know how he did that. This horse he had - Twenty-two - he was saving for the buckjump show. It didn't used to buck, it used to spin. And then stop! I never had a go at him. (laughter) I didn't feel like it.
I put my shoulder out in a river one day. A bush doctor, you know. We were camped on the corn monage, you know. I forget who was there. Another lad there and we were doing cartwheels into the river. At the deeper part. It wasn't that deep - only three or four feet deep. Doing cartwheels in. Must have twisted it somehow and I must have put my shoulder or something out. And I'm getting back and someone said, 'What the hell's wrong with you?' I told him. I laid on the ground and he put one foot under my shoulder and the other one up my ear or somewhere or other and [grunt!], 'How's that?' I said, 'Still damned sore.' For a week or two afterwards I couldn't use this arm properly, but, see it's come back. So that's bush doctors for you. Now, where are we?
Well, I think we've done quite well. What I'd like to do to finish off the interview, is just very briefly talk about your life after 1930. Could you first of all tell me, what year did you get married?
Oh, how old's Alba? Fifty. Oh, about '33, '34.
And your wife's name?
Adelaide.
And what was her maiden name?
Grosser.
She lived down Millicent.
Millicent.
How many children did you have?
One daughter.
When was she born?
Oh, let's see. About '34 some time I think.
What's her name?
Alba.
Could we just, very briefly - - I know you had a great variety of jobs after 1930. Could we run through them? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 50. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8.507
Very briefly?
Yes.
Let's see. When did I leave the forest? I left the forest round about 1938. I got the bug to want to do something for myself so I bought a truck and started truckying. Carting seed and super and one thing and another like that. Then I got a contract at Naracoorte. It was Messmury Quarry out at Naracoorte. Then I had trouble with my truck, which was a Reo tip truck and that took a while to fix up so I had to get somebody else to do the job I'd normally do, so - I was lucky to get out of that.
What did I do then? When I got that fixed up, I finished the contract anyway. I came out about square because I had to pay the chap money. I normally had to pay some other chap to do the carting because mine was out of action.
Then I hired another truck because I had a job with the Penola Council on day work. One of the wife's brothers had a job on that. Didn't pay that much but it helped a bit. Was that while I was doing the Naracoorte job? I'm not too sure. Anyway, when the war came along the truck business went flat. Nobody wanted trucks. If you had a built up business it wasn't too bad, but nobody wanted trucks. So I unloaded the trucks. And I got a job with the - temporary job with the Millicent Council, tractor driving. That lasted two or three months I think. Then I called in at the Somerset pub in Millicent. They were starting to build the Cellulose. I called in at the Somerset pub and the foreman of the job - I think Cartledge was the building contractor, and his foreman was there having a beer, and he said he was looking for men you see. So I said 'Right.'
So I left the Council and the next day - - -. The other fellers left too because it was only a temporary fill in job. And we all went to work for Cellulose. And I started in the concrete gang. And the primary part of the job was, I was sort of halfbreed rigger. They had a great big overhead mixer, you know, with a thingumybob chain - not chain, you know, big belt going up. And the concrete used to come out a great big metal trolley like that with wheels on to go to the pourer. And my job was to get these planks and cross bits and build up plank runway. A plank in the middle for the feller to walk on, and a plank each side for the wheels, you see. Then we had some over- head bits and pieces to do. So, I suppose I'd call myself halfbreed rigger. And I was cleaning out - - -. We'd done a pour one day and we were getting ready for some pylons. I think it was the powerhouse stuff. And we poured the ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 51. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
bottom - you know reinforcing, the rods were up like that and - every time I bent down I got a stab in the behind with one of these ties. So I thought, 'Blast it.' So, I don't know what put the idea in my head, because I'd thought about correspondence work once on the forest - -
END OF TAPE 3 SIDE A: TAPE 3 SIDE B
And I went home and I wrote to ICS - that's International Correspondence School and Hemingway and Robertson. And if I'd known I could have done Engineering at the - something practical, I'd probably have become an engineer, but instead of that I took up accountancy with Hemingway and Robertson. And then Cartledge found out and put me in charge of the store - maintenance and construction store. So I was studying there and when I had a bit of spare time in the store I'd whip out a book and have a look, you know. If somebody came in - - -. You make your own rules in the store to some extent, you know.
And then at one stage - that's how I came to meet the Assistant Auditor General which paid a dividend later. Wally Goulter was there. He was inves- tigating the Cellulose. I think at one stage there they were in bother because they had a complete new plant in Germany on the wharf and the war broke out, so that put the kybosh on that. And they turned round and bought a second hand plant from America. They had it reconditioned. This American engineer came out - I think his name was Stark - to supervise revamping it. I've lost track of myself for a minute.
You were working in the store.
I was working in the store. And at one stage there they were in bother and the creditors had a bigger interest than the Cellulose shareholders. So the Government did an investigation. Wally Goulter later on was Assistant Auditor General. He was down doing the investigation part. So that's how I got to know him. And apparently I was the only one who had full records of all the unfilled orders. You see the orders - there'd be an office copy and a copy - - -. The original would go to people who'd supply the stuff. And I had a blue copy which I kept on clips in the file and as they came in I'd mark it off. Well apparently I was the only one who had a complete set of all the incomplete orders so Wally came to see me you see. That's how I came to know him.
Anyway while I was there I passed my Accountancy with the Association of Accountants and the - - -. Was it the Institute of Incorporated Secretaires, I think. I was studying costing too, but I hadn't done the exam for that. And I ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 52. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
had a trip to Melbourne because I was Branch Secretary of the local Union. It was the Austalian Paper mill Employees' Union. I got voted in. The only reason I took it on - not because I particularly wanted it - is because I found out as a storeman I wasn't covered by any award whatsoever. They could pay me what they liked, you see. So when they - - -. They didn't get an award, they got an agreement between the Union and the company, so they'd bung me in you see.
So on the trip to Melbourne I called in Hemingways and the chap there was - - -. The wife knew him from years ago through the Seventh Day Adventists. It was a bloomin' hour before I could get a word in. He was the chief tutorial manager of Hemingway and Robertsons. I think he started his own organisation afterwards. And I was offered the job there with the Department of Supply. I met one chap. I've forgotten his name, but on the Contract Division they wanted investigating accountants. And the Manpower wouldn't let me go. Pd also applied for - - -. The Navy were advertising for accountants, surveyors and lawyers or something or other. And the Manpower wouldn't let me go to that you see.
So, anyway, I came back to Millicent and back in the store. I was talking to friends one day. Harry Black, was the - all the drainage you'd see in the South-East for the - I don't know what department it was, but you know, the drains through the South-East. He was the resident engineer in Millicent. He said, 'Why don't you write to the Manpower in Adelaide?' I'll do that.' I think Hunkin was the manager - or commissioner or something or other. So I wrote to him. The next thing I got a letter from the Prices Branch. I didn't know then but Bill McCann who was the Deputy Prices Commissioner was also mixed up with Manpower's Appeal Board. And offered me a job.
So I went down to - - I saw Turner who was a permanent Common- wealth man but he was in the - permanent customs man - but he was in the - down there. But he put me - sort of put me off, he put me off for a while. Anyway the job bobbed up and I went down there about June '44 I think. As Investigation Officer in the Finance Section. And then shortly afterwards became an Investigation Officer Grade 2. And meantime I'd sat and done my cost accountancy. And once I was Investigation Officer Grade 3. I don't know what time that was. And then - - I became a Group Leader in charge of the Clothing and Building sections. I had two sections under me. There were two section leaders. And I had a trip to - - -. We had a conference in Melbourne about the States were to take over the Prices from the Common- wealth and this was - be about September '48 I think. And we had a ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 53. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8.507
conference in Melbourne. Came back and we had a difference of opinion with Victoria about a few things. One day in Melbourne - Collins Street. We had sunshine, rain, sleet and snow, all in the one day. Somebody said, 'We must be in Melbourne.' It went down very well too. (laughs) Then the States took over. Most of the Commonwealth chaps went back to Commonwealth departments. They found jobs for them in the Corn monwealth departments. If you were a returned soldier you could join the permanent public service as an Intermediate then, which I didn't have anyway and I wasn't a return anyhow.
I could have had a job at the Post Office but that would have been in Division 4. I decided that wasn't good enough you see. Because they didn't take any notice of accountancy qualifications or anything like that. I had to have Intermediate or something like that which I didn't have.
So that carried on for a few years until '54 I think. And Bill McCann had retired and I wasn't too popular with the current Commissioner. Actually he was junior to me at one stage and I got him promoted. Silliest thing I ever did. Still that didn't matter. So I - -
There was an advert in the paper for Pope Products. Of course I knew Joe Keenan who was the Secretary of Pope Products because I'd met him on the Council of the Cost Institute. So I went down to see him and he said, 'Oh look,' he said, 'won't bother about an interview.' He said, 'We'll look like an interview as far as you are concerned.' He said, 'You won't get the assistant secretary's job because old Bart's already got somebody lined up for it. But,' he said, 'we want a Works' Accountant for the Finsbury Division.' Go on,' I said, 'OK.' So I think the pay was the same or a bit more. So I stopped at Pope's for a few years. And then Simpsons took over. Oh, well they merged so it amounted to a take over.
Pope's business seemed to go back when Harley Pope, Bart's brother - he was Sales Manager and Administrator. He was pretty good. He had a major accident down here on Anzac Highway. What's the name of the place? There's a restaurant or something there now, just by the bend there. He was crossing the road and a car hit him and broke his hip or something. Put him right out and from that time on it seemed to be - - Of course, it might have been only a coincidence, but things started to go back anyhow. They merged with Simpsons and I went with Simpsons for a while.
And then there was an ad in the paper - Commonwealth Public Service. Not the Commonwealth - State Public Service - looking for accountants and ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 54. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
so forth. So I put an application in and I got a ring on the phone. I've for- gotten the chap's name now. Later on he was Secretary of some department - Department of Health I think. He was a senior man in the Public Service Commissioner's office. He said, 'Look, you won't get the job - that job,' he said. 'We want young eager beavers.' But,' he said, 'are you interested in the audit?' I said, 'Oh yes, yes,' so - - -. Because I knew George Jefferies because when I was on the State Council of Associated Accountants, George Jefferies, he was the Public Services Commission Officer - Office then. He knew me and I knew Wally Goulter and by that time one was Auditor General and the other was an Assistant Auditor General. So at that stage - oh, this would be about September/October - -
What year?
When did I start in Audit? Be about '63 I think. And I was on a fairly big job then. I had a bit of technical background because Pope's had enlarged their range of electric motors from the quarter horse they used to make for their washing machines up to the three-phase - from three quarter to a hundred horse power you see. And I was halfway through recosting this. And I thought - - I mean I felt I couldn't sort of leave it in the lurch because I mean I was on pretty good ter ms with the accountant there and my boss and one thing and another. So I went in to see George Jefferies and I told him. I said, 'I'm halfway through a job,' I said, 'and I don't like sort of walking out in the middle of it.' I told him what it was. 'Well,' he said, 'look. Give me a ring when you've finished.' So I think I finished on December the fourth and I started at the Auditors Office on December the seventh.
So the first interview I had there, I think Wally Goulter and George Jefferies were arguing the point for half an hour on who knew me first. So I stopped at the Auditors Office until I retired.
When was that?
About '76 I suppose.
Did you ever wish you'd stayed on the land or gone on to the land properly?
No. When I see some of their trials and tribulations now. You see the biggest part of it would have been capital, you see. And I saw some of the farmers and so forth. See down the South-East they used to do fairly well but it was pretty expensive. So where would I get the money? I mean that's after- thoughts of course.
Did you ever meet up with the chaps you'd travelled with? ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 55. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
No. I've never heard of any of them again in any shape or form. See old Frank probably went on to Queensland. Oh he'd be dead years ago now. I'm in my seventies and he was a lot older than me then. Cliff Dean was two or three years older than me, so where he'd be I don't know. I have seen one or two chaps I worked on the forest with, but not for some time though. But when I was at Pope's I went into the pub on the Port Road and I called in there on my way back from - - I used to put most of my time in at the Finsbury factory you see. I was on my way back and crossed the Port Road and, 'Oh, I'll call in and have a beer.' And there's George Ross. I'd worked with him on the forest years ago. He was a migrant too.
And what of your family? When did you catch up with them?
As a matter of fact I owe my brother a letter now. I feel very guilty.
But you kept in touch with them?
Oh, on and off. Well my brother's been out. See he did his science degree at Birmingham University under Professor Oliphant. Then later on when the war was on he volunteered for radar and they wouldn't have him because by that time he was doing his doctor of philosophy I think. I don't know what in. But he was working with some Cambridge professor on uranium I think, because in 194 - I don't know if it was 1944 - he'd married before then. He and Nancy went to Canada - Deep River or somewhere or other. They had some nuclear establishment there - working on it anyway. I don't know whether it was heavy water or what it was. I mean I don't know the details.
And then they had this trip down to some top security uranium place in America. He was allowed to go there on account of his thingamebobs. But how long he stopped in America. Then he came here. He must have gone back to England after the war. He must have still been working on the uranium part of the business because he was out here for Monte - - -. What was the first one? Monte Bello. See there was two divisions. There was a physics division and a chemistry division. He was interested in the chemistry side. They were at Newman's College in Melbourne, which I think is a Catholic residential college in Melbourne University.
And he came over to see us. He got a day or two off. Then he flew back. At a matter of fact I think he was out here for Alba's engagement party. And then he came out again for Maralinga and this time they were out - - -. What's that place they've got out there? Edinburgh way. It's a research centre. Salisbury or Penfield or Parafield - way out there somewhere. I've forgotten the name of it now. They had a group of them there. There was two groups. Because we had a do one night before we came down here. ATB/7/129-7 Mr W.F. COOK 56. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
There was one South Australian chap - a chap named Sangster - mixed up with them. They all had a - - -. Gerry had an honorary military title - Lieutenant Colonel - for the sake of security and so forth. You were supposed to burn the stuff but I found them in the backyard. That's when we were living in Kingswood.
So you did keep up with him. Did you ever see your parents again?
No. They'd gone back you see. Gerry's been out since. What's that place in Sydney? Lucas Heights. He was out there for - since we were here, because I remember my wife and I went fishing down at - what's the nudist beach there now?
Maslins.
Maslins. We used to go fishing at Maslins until Dunstan mucked it up. And we took down a lol-about and Gerry lay on the lol-about and read a book while Dot and I fished and that was the last time. So I don't know when that was. But I owe him a letter and I must write - mucking around. I've only just finished my - only posted my tax return Monday.
Well, I think we've done very well.
Oh good. ATB/7/129-7i Mr W.F. COOK 57. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
INDEX
Notes to the Index Users of this Index should note that in many instances the particular word used for the index heading will not be found in the text. The conversational vocabularies of most people do not correspond to the Library of Congress subject headings which have, in the main, been adhered to in the construction of this index. Users are also directed to the main card index to the 'S.A. Speaks' project. Abbreviations P8507A,B Photographs in File 8507 passim 'in various parts' Family names Rather than index names of all family members and relatives mentioned in each interview, entries are included that indicate surnames (including women's maiden names) of at least the Interviewee's father and mother, and spouse, when applicable. Other relatives are indexed if significant mention is made of them.
Aborigines, Australian see Australian —Housing, 19 Aborigines —Leaving home, 17 Adams, Sorbey, 40 —Reasons for, 3,16 Afghans, 27 — Repatriation, 7,35,38 Agricultural labourers, 19-20,25,34 —Voyage to South Australia, 3,17-9 — Australian Aborigines, 26,27 England — Childhood memories, 5, — Forestry —South East, 40-4,45-6 6-8,39-40 — Station hands — Flinders Ranges, Families —Separated see Husband and 20,21,22-4 wife —Separation — Wayfaring life, 25-33,36-8,49 Family recreation — England, 7-8 Australian Aborigines, 26,27 Farms—Murray Mallee, 19-20 Australians —English perceptions, 45 Forest fires, 46 Automobiles — Maintenance and Forests and forestry — South repair, 23 East, 35,40-4,45-6 Birmingham, England, 2,4 Goats, 29,32 Boarders, 34 Goldsmiths, 3 Children —England Gordon, Douglas, 23 —Amusements, 7-8,9,10 Grandparents, 4,5 —Employment, 15-6 Grosser, Alba see Cook, Alba — Mischief, 10,12,13,39-40 Hansen, Frank, 25,26 Class distinction see Social status Harris, Florence Ada see Cook, France Cook, Alba, 49 Horses, 24,36,48-9; P8507A,B Cook, Florence Ada, 1,3-4,7,9,35 Husband and wife —Separation, 34-5 Cook, William Frederick, 8507 passim; Immigrants see Emigration and P8507A,B immigration Cook, William George, 1,2-3,6,7,15, Kay, Francis, 40,41,46 20,21,34-5 Kent Town, 19 Copley, 20-1,25 Kidman, Sidney, 21,47 Crime and criminals, 29,32 La meroo, 34 Dean, Cliff, 25,26,29 Military service, Voluntary, P8507B Dogs, 37 Milkmen —England, 16 Drovers, 26,30 Mindarie, 15,19 Dwellings — London, England, 6 Mount Burr Forest, 35,40-4,45-6 Education, Primary —England, 11-2 Myrtle Springs, 20,21,22-4,27-8 Education, Secondary — England, 12-4 Naples, 18 Emigration and immigration New South Wales, 25-33 passim, 36-8 —Arrival in South Australia, 19 Newsboys —England, 3,15 —Assimilation, 21 North Adelaide, 34 —Employment, 15,45 Occupational mobility see Agricultural — English, 3,16 labourers — Wayfaring life ATB/7/129-7i Mr W.F. COOK 58. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8507
Osterley, 3 Stationhands see Agricultural labourers Outer Harbour, 19 Teachers—England, 12,13-4 Phillips, Snowy, 26-33 passim, 48 Voluntary military service see Military Port Said, 18 service, Voluntary Queensland, 25,30 Wages Race discrimination, 17 —Forestry labourers, 42 Silversmiths, 3 —Stationhands, 24 Slaughtering and slaughterhouses, 22-3 Wayfaring life — Agricultural Smoking, 7,8 labourers, 25-33,36-8,49 Social status, 37 Wilcannia, 29,31