TYNWALD COURT.

DOUGLAS, TUESDA)', JUNE 27, 1916.

Present: In the Council: The Deputy- goods go into the general revenue of Governor {Mr T. Kneen), the Attorney- this Isle, and ii, it used for the ordin- General, the Demister Callow, the ary expenses of the Insular Govern- Receiver-General, the Archdeacon. (The ment? Lord Bishop, Deemster Moore, • and ibe (4) i. What is the gross amount of such Vicar-General were absent.) In the revenue received from the Aliens Camps— House of Keys : Messrs Kitto, Kermode, (a) since their establishment to Quayle, A. Christian, Radcliffe, South- date; ward, Corlett, Curphey, Walton, Ker- (b) during the financial year ended ruish, A. Qualtrough, Quinc, Cormode, 31st March last.? Crennell, Carine, Garside, Cunningham, What is the amount of revenue Moughtin, Clucas, Col'. Moore, and the received from the new and increased Speaker. Messrs W. F. Cowell, W. taxation. from the ordinary popula- Christian, and Joseph Qualtrough were tion of the Island during the year absent. ended 31st March last? (6) In view of the foregoing receipts and BILLS FOR SIGNATURE. the exclusion of the Isla of Man The Deputy-Governor : I have to lay from participation in the Canadian before the Court for signature : - fund for fair rents, does the Insular The Inquests of Death Amendment Bill; Government recognise special respon- sibility in case the form of grants-- The Highway Act Amendment Bill; and not loans—for such cases as those The Turbaries Bill. referred to in questions 1 and 2? The Bills were signed. (6) What steps have the Insular Govern- ment taken to secure billeting of LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD troops in Douglas? REPORT. (7) Does the Insular Government intend The next business was to receive the to appoint an advisory committee to report- of the Local Government Board. deal with the needs of the Island The Deputy-Governor : I understand arising from the war, as announced that the report of the Local Government In "The Isle of Man Times" of 18th Board is not ready to be presented to-day. Pore mber last ?- --- Mr Cunningham: I beg to ask your WAR RIGHTS UNION QUESTIONS. Excellency the questions of which I have Mr Cunningham had given notice to already given notice. They were sub- ask the Deputy-Governor :— mitted to a public meeting in Douglas, (1) Whether, in view of the resolution and handed to me, as representative of passed on 10th March, 1916, allocat- North Douglas, to present here. May I ing L20,000 in relief of rates, it is have a reply to question IP not intended to make grants towards The Deputy-Governor: It would be the rates for 1915-16 levied on pre- war valuation of property : better if I took them altogether. (2) Does the Insular Government intend Mr Cunningham: Then, may I call to provide for rebate of rates and to attention to a mistake in Question No. 3. deal with the minimum fair routsof We usually blame mistakes on the printer, women and old people whose busi- and, on this occasion, it is probably the ness has been ruined through the printers' fault. The question should read : war and who are without any sources " Does the revenue from dutiable goods of income other than ohirtmaking and 8021 -naking, and who must, if consumed at and used in connection with nothinr, be done for them, thavedebts the Alien Camps go into the general for these rates and rents at the end revenue of this Island, and is it used for of the war which they cannot meet; the ordinary expenses of the Insular (3) Does the revenue from dutiable Government?" Rills for Signature.—Local Government Board Report—War Rights Union Questions. 466 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916.

The Deputy-Governor : I had bettor against 611b. per head as the average of deal with questions 2 and 5 together. The the United Kingdom. With regard to intention of the Legislature has been the other items that appear in the state- shown in this position with regard to the ment, we have to remember that all the loan of £25,000 and the £20,000 grant people in the Camps are able-bodied men, under the Relief of Rates Act and the and include no women and children, and further loans which are also proposed to that is bound to affect very considerably be made under that Act. That Act was the amount of tobacco consumed. It does passed and the vote made with the appro- not affect. the sugar so much, as that is val of the Legislature, and with the appro- supplied at so much per head per day, val of the Local Authorities, and it is not calculated on the average consumption proposed to take any further steps at for the United Kingdom. The propor- present. If there is a motion laid before tions of other dutiable articles consumed the Court to appoint a Committee to re- in the Camps are in proportion to the consider the terms of the loan of £255,000, consumption in the United Kingdom, Tea no doubt a committee would be appointed is 10.91bs. per head, as against. 6.641bs. which would consider any difficulty that in the United Kingdom; coffee, 5.5Ibs. per has arisen and go into the whole ques- head, as against. three-fifths of a lb. in the tion, and remove any grievances that may United Kingdom—about nine times as have arisen to those persons anxious to much. That is, of course, accounted for take a loan. Of course, anything that is by the 25,000 being all men, whereas, in done will have to have the approval of the ordinary population, the average is the Treasury. I would like to point out four in a family. The consumption of than any persons who require a further tobacco, 4.861bs. per week, as against 2.08 loan out of the £25,000 at the present in the United Kingdom. With regard to time are at perfect liberty to apply for it, No. 6: "What steps have the Insular Gov- or for a. further loan on their reduced ernment taken to secure the billeting of valuation, quite apart altogether from troops in Douglas?" The Court will be the £20,000 loan under the Act and the aware that considerable correspondence other sums which may be lent to the has been carried on between the Govern- Local Authorities. The third question: ment Office, the Home Office, and the Does the revenue from dutiable goods used War Office on this subject, commencing at the Camps go into the general revenue? on October 5th, 1914, and continuing It does go into the general revenue. With down to May 11th, 1916, In addition, a :.regard to question four, the Government deputation from the Island, along with Office cannot attempt to give any satisfac- the Governor, had an interview with the tory figures with regard to these items, as Home Office in June, when the whole the taxes and the numbers of persons matter was discussed. The Government in the Camp varied so much that it was Secretary had seen the War Office, and impossible to make a calculation or give members of the Court and the Governor any figures which could be considered had used their influence as far as possible reliable. The second part of the ques- to get a favourable answer to the pro- tion: " What is the amount of revenue posal. The Receiver-General, in parti- received from the new and increased cular, had approached the authorities in taxation from the ordinary population of London, and advantage was taken of the the Island during the year ended 31st visit of the Home Secretary, a few days March last?" That is much in the same ago, to again press the matter forward. position, but I think that we can give a The whole thing depends on the War fairer idea in the future. There are in Office, and they do not hold out much the Alien Camps some 25,000 prisoners, hope that anything will be done. Every- while the ordinary population is 52,000. one, I am sure, from the Governor down, At least 4,000 of these are, however, has been most anxious to secure the billet- absent from the Island, in the military or ing of troops in Douglas. Some are bil- naval services, or working, and if we de- leted at Ramsey, but this question deals duct them from the 52,000, we get 48,000 with Douglas, and you can rest assured as the ordinary population of the Island. that everyone is doing what we can to The amount of tea, coffee, and chicory assist the town. Then there is No. 7: consumed in the Camps is very much in "Does the Insular Government intend to excess of the ordinary population per appoint an advisory committee to deal with head. In the Camps, we have learned. t•he needs of the Island arising from the they consume 111b. of tea per head, as war, =is announced in "The Isle of Man

War Rights Ull'on Questions. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916 467

Times" of 18th December last?" In view scheme approved by the Tynwald Court. of what took place in this Court on Decem- No. 5: "Have the whole of the applicants' ber 21st, and the action of the local authori- assets to be given in security; if not, what ties, I did not think it desirable margin of security is required, and is the to appoint that committee, and the Relief security ear-marked?" That, a,gain, I of Rates Act fairly carries out what that think, is answered by the scheme. Section committee would have had to deal with. d provides, The loan only to be made to wished for a, committee representative of those persons who own furniture or other the local authorities and of representative assets, and who, in the opinion of the Com- men of the whole Island, but that was mittee of Management, would, in normal found impossible, though I would very circumstances, be quite solvent." The Com- much have liked it, mittee net in harmony with the spirit of Mr Cormode! With reference to the that. There is no rule Laid down. The smoking of tobacco, does that apply to all Committee was not competent to lay down aliens, er only those who can afford to a rule that all furniture must be given. buy it. What the Committee has to see to is that The Deputy-Governor : They buy it. there is sufficient security, whatever form Mr Cormodc: There must be a consider- that security may take. I may add, with able number who are not able to buy it. regard. to many cases which come before The Deputy-Governor: The figures are the Committee, the furniture is the asset taken from the actual consumption at the which is offered; as security, and to avoid Camp. difficulties, to avoid having to isolate parts of the furniture or to take possession of LOANS TO BOARDING-HOUSE them, the general security is taken upon KEEPERS. the furniture. That, in most cases, entirely meets the wishes and convenience of the The Deputy-Governor called on the At- person', 'who are making application, but torney-General, in the absence of Deem- there is no rule to that effect. The only ster Moore, to reply to Mr Cunningham's rule is that the Committee have to see that queries relative to the Loans Committee. they get sufficient security, in such a form The Attorney-General: The first question as it may suit the applicant to give. is--"What is the amount of the loan ap- Mr Cunningham : I have to thank your plied for 'le date?" the answer to which is Excellency, also the Attorney-General, for £4,761 Os 9d. The second question is— youn- courteous replies. "Have the terms of the loan scheme, as approved by Tynwald' on 22nd June, 1915. been in any way modified or altered ; and if NAVAL AND MILITA.RX PENSIONS. so, in what particulars?" The answer to The next business on the agenda was the that is in the negative. They could not appointment of a committee under the possibly be altered without a resolution Naval and Military War Pensions (Isle of of the Tynwald Court. It is common know- Man) Act, 1916. ledge there has been no resaution of the The Attorney-Ccneral : I think that the Court. Tho third question is---"Are the form in which that appears on the agenda Committee refusing to lend the fair rent may prove misleading to certain members. unless the full rates are also applied for " What the Tynwald Court has to do in the The answer to that is that the terms upon first instance, under the Act, is to approve which the Committee make the loan are de- a scheme, and that scheme has to provide tailed in the scheme approved by the Tyn- for the constitution of the committee. I wald Court, and can be ascertained by read- will just read, the provision in the Act. It ing that. So far as I am informed as to is under the Naval and Military Pensions the mode of procedure of the Committee, Act, 1915, which, by Order in Council, has what is suggested by the question does not now been approved by this Court, and a take place. No. 4: ''Have all applicants draft Order in Council has been sent to for fair rents an equal right to receive as- headquarters for approval, but, I under- sistance?" All persons who can bring their stand, it has not yet reached. that. Until case within the terms of the resolution of that order is completed, we shall have no the Court are entitled. They are all power to act. Section 2 of the Act pro- treated in the same manner. Each ease is vides—"For the purpose of assisting the considered on its own merits, and the com- Statutory Committee,"—which is the cen- mittee simply act in conformity with the tral body appointed in England—"in the terms and conditions laid down in the execution of their duties, a local committee

Loans to Boarding-House Keepers. Naval and Military Pensions. 468 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. shall be established for the Isle of Man." Mr Orennell ; That is with reference to In England it is done by the County administration. Council. Sub-section 2 of section 2 says— The A tterney-General : The pensions "The constitution of the Local Committee under this Act will apply wherever the men shall be such as may be determined by a are. It will apply to the Isle of Man the Scheme framed by the Tynwald Court and same as anywhere else. approved by the Statutory Committee; so, however, that every such scheme shall pro- The Deputy-Governor: It is a matter vide," ete.—it provides as to the constitu- that should be placed beyond the slightest tion and the bodies who are to be repre- doubt. sented on the Local Committee, and so Mr Radcliffe: We have in our neighbour- forth. Now, the first step which must be hood a man who has been four to six years taken by the Insular Government, or by in India ; he came home again, then he this Court, upon the Order in Council being fought in the Boer war, and, later on, in finally passed, is to consider the scheme. this war. He has returned wounded, and Whether the Court will prefer to have a he receives the handsome sum of 6s 8d a scheme drafted beforehand, and then sub- week. mit it to the Court, or whether this Court The Deputy-Governor: We are travelling will prefer to appoint a committee of its far beyond the question. own body—a small committee it would be— Mr Radcliffe: I am pleased to say the to draft a scheme, that is a matter for the Archdeacon is taking an interest in the decision of the Court itself, and that will case. come before the Court as soon as the Court Mr A. Qualtrough : Does the Govern- is held after the Order in Council has been ment intend to make immediate provision received. I thought it better to make that for these cases—one at one at explanation, so that we may know before- Douglas, and one at Port Erin? hand what the proceeding is when the The Deputy-Governor : I cannot allow proper time arrives. this discussion to go on. It does not arise Mr Crennell: In this connection, I would on the business before the Court. like to ask whether the position of the Mr A. Qualtrough: No, but their families Manx soldiers is, as a matter of fact, pre- are starving. cisely the same as that of those in the United Kingdom. I took it that it was, Mr Cormode: I think the question before but I have heard it remarked more than us is whether we will appoint a committee once that it is not, that pensions have been to draft a scheme. refused to Manx soldiers, in conditions in The Deputy-Governor: We have not, got which they would have been obtained in the order down yet. I expect it will come England, because we are said to be a before the next Court. It may come any foreign country, or outside the United day. As soon as it does come, the matter Kingdom. I cannot vouch for it, but I did will come before the Court again. We hear of one specific case where a Manx shall have a Court on 5th July, so there soldier was discharged as being of no fur- will not be much delay. ther use for the Army through wounds, Cormode : I was impressed with the and he failed to get his pension. idea that the best plan would be to appoint The Deputy-Governor: I will have the a committee now, and they could hare the matter inquired into by the Government hest plan ready for use. Office. As far as I know, the conditions The Attorney-General : 1 do not see any are the same, but it does not arise on the objection to that. We can appoint certain matter now before the Court. But it is persons, with instructions that after the a matter that is being inquired into. Order in Council does arrive in the Island, Mr Crennell : It is a matter of extreme we shall proceed forthwith to draft a importance. scheme for submission to the Court. That The Deputy-Governor : We have always would save time. I beg to more that a assurned they arc in the seine position. I committee he appointed for that purpose. I cannot state it of my own knowledge, and It ought only to be a small number—three it is a matter which must be carefully in- would be sufficient to draft it. The com- quired into. mittee would, of course, be associated with The Attorney-General: According to the his Excellency the Deputy-Governor in the terms of the Act, each Local Committee matter. will be in the same position as any com- Mr Cormode seconded this motion, and it mittee appointed by a County Council. was agreed to.

Naval and Military Pensions, TYNWALD COURT, ,JUNE 27, 1916. 469

The committee was appointed to consist twelve persons to be, from time to time., of the Attorney-General and Mr Cunning- elected by the nakepayers of such district. ham and Mr Walton. Mr Cormode seconded the motion and it waa carried, nem con. RELIEF OF ItA TES. The Deputy-Governor 1 have omitted a SWINE IN DOEGLAS, matter on the agenda the appointment The Deputy-Governor : There are two or of a committee under section 7 of the War ihru.e, matters, in reference to which, 1 un- Emergency (Relief of Rates) Act, 1916. derstand, persons are in attendance, and That Act has not yet been promulgated, so, they will not take much time to dispose of : strictly speaking, we are not quite in order. Corporation of Douglas.—Petition for Mr Crennel : The same thing applies 1 confirmation of bye-law prohibiting the take it? keepina of swine in the borough of Douglas. The Deputy-Governor: 1 do not think Mr E. C. Kneen appeared for the Cor- you can appoint the committee in that case, porrition. because it is a Committee appointed under The Deputy-Governor : This matter, 1 the Act, and they have certain powers only understand, will be referred to a com- under the Act. I do not think a committee mittee? appointed before the Act is promulgated Mr .Kneen: Yes, your Excellency. would have the powers. ft can be done on 5th July or the first Court afterwards, It The IteceiverGeeeral: 1 move it be re- will be put on the agenda for the 5th July ferred to a committee consisting of the in the ordinary course. members of the Local Government Board. Capt. Kitto seconded.—Carried. POOR RELIBEF IN PEEL. Mr Kermode : I have great pleasure i INTEREST ON DOUGLAS LOANS. moving the resolution which stands in my Corporation of Douglas.—Petition, to name:— vary ties conditions aa to rate of interest Whereas, at a public meeting of the rate- - on which various loans have been auth- payers of the town of Peel, assembled for the orised. purpose, and convened and presided over by Mr Kneen: That application is to ob- the Chairman of the Peel Poor Relief society, tain authority to have the rate of interest held on the 14th day of March, 1916, it was re- which the Corporation are authorised to solved by the majority of ratepayers present that the voluntary system of poor relief could pay on borrowed money in respect of various not be continued in the said town, and that ap- loans, increased from it rate not exceeding plication be made to the Tynwald Court for four per cent, to ,11 per cent.—(Petition the appointment of a Poor Relief Committee read). The moneys have been mainly bor- under the Poor relief Acte. rowed on mortgages for short terms, and Resolved, therefore,-That this Court, considers will require to 'be renewed or the money re- it advisable to make fresh Provision for the borrowed to redeem such mortgages as maintenance of the poor in the poor relief district of Peel, and that thero be appointed they fall due, and the petitioners anti- for such district a Board of Guardians of the cipate that a higher rate of interest than Poor. four per cent. may be required by the per- Resolved, further,—That the following sons from whom the money is re-borrowed. persons, viz.:—The Rev. Norman V. Scorer. St. They, therefore, ask leave to vary the in- Germain's Vicarage; Richard Alfred Oooil, 1, terest. Athol-place; Frederick Charles Brownfield, Ravenedale; Thomas Kelly, Victoria-terrace; The Attorney-General: Does the petition John Samuel Wesley Gloater, 4, Athol-place; say they are for the purposes of the Jno. Kneen Gawne, Aibany-road; William Thos. original loans? Kaye. 27, Shore-read; Robert Benjamin Kelly. Mr 1{neen:1 think that is clear from the le, Douglas-street; William A. Kelly, Victoria terrace; Christopher Robert Shimmin, 23. petition. They may, without any further Rona-street; Edward Corrie. 34, Castle-street; sanction of the Court renew the mortgage and Edward Cottier, Douglias-street; all in the or re-borrow the money or part of the prin- town of Peel, be the Board of Guardians for cipal money thereof. What has happened the town of Peel until the 12th day of May, is this, where authority hes been given for 1917. a loan, the Corporation have borrowed the Resolved, further,—That the following be it moneys on short-term mortgages—three, by this Court under the regulation prescribed seven Poor Relief Act, 1993, section 27, sub-eection five, or Teal's' terms—in seine cases (that is to Cay) :— at six months' notice. As these mort- That the members of the Board of Guardians gages fall due, they re-borrow the money of the Poor Relief District of Peel consist of and go on re-borrowing as long as the

Beiier of Bates. :Nor Relief in Peel.Swine iii Douglas.—Interest on Douglas Loans. 479 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916, money is required, but not beyond the term per pound. The duty on tea was increased of years originally sanctioned by the Court. from 5d to lid on 17th March this year, so The Attorney-General: I think it did not that only two weeks of the extra tax comes state specifically that the money borrowed into the financial year. The duty on sugar would be used solely for the purposes of was increased front is 19d to 9s 4d per cwt,. paying off the loans originally borrowed. on 22nd September, 1915, so the receipts I did not catch it. for six months fall within the present year. Mr Kneen; It does not state so specifi- The duty on manufactured tobacco was on cally, but I think it is perfectly clear. I 9th December, 1915, increased from 3s Sd take it the order made on the petition to 5s Gd per lb., subject to certain varia- would contain the provision. tions of quantity of tobacco and moisture : The Deputy-Governor : I suggest that the so about four months' receipt of the extra petition should be referred to a committee dirty comes in the financial year. On manu- of three. It will conic on again on 5th factured tobacco the duty was increased July. on 22nd September, 1915, from 5s 4d to 8s The Attorney-General: I move that. I per lb., so that six months, practically, conies in the last year. On motor spirit, think, for many reasons, it would he the duty was increased as from 22nd better to discuss the matter in committee. September, and six months have come Mr Carine seconded the motion, and it within the financial year. Now, when the was agreed to. estimate for the year ended 31st March, On the motion of Mr Radcliffe, the 1915, was laid before the Court, it was es- matter was referred to the same committee timated that for the year ending 31st as the previous matter—the Attorney- March, 1916, there would be a deficiency of General and Messrs Walton and Outlining- £26,722. That deficiency, as stated in the ham. Treasurer's observations on the accounts, has been changed to a surplus of £18,149 FINANCIAL • STATEMENT.—DEPUTY- 19s Sd, or a total difference of £44,871. GOVERNOR ON REVENUE AND That difference arises from the increased EXPENDITURE. duties, and largely, indeed, chiefly, from The Deputy-Governor : I think it will be the increased number of aliens in the in- convenient now that I should lay before ternment camps and the guards. On page the Court the Financial Statement for the 6 is shown in detail the amount received in year ended 31st March last. The state- duties on various items this year and last ment is already in the hands of members year, also the difference between the of the Court. 1 think it well to remind the amount received and the amount estimated Court in the first instance of the various for. Substantially, the figures I have alterations which have been made in the stated are correct. 'There is not very much ditties during the past year by this Court. difference with regard to receipts from mis- The duty on beer was doubled on 9th cellaneous sources; they are some £200 less December, 1915, and the extra duty on im- than the estimate. That does not sub- ported beer for a period of about four stantially affect the result. One matter months has conic into this year's revenue. may be somewhat puzzling—the refund With regard to Manx beer, the Act was with respect to Volunteers doing duty at passed on 9th December, 1915, at the same the Aliens' Camp. Volunteer Service is en- time as the resolution with regard to im- tered on both sides of the account. The ported beer, but, owing to the way in which cost was estimated last year at £9,850. The the accounts are kept, the only increase in actual cost is put down in the statement as this year's revenue from Manx beer was in £11,759 10s 3d. The footnote says "of this respect of the period from 9th December to amount £5,818 4s has been refunded, as 31st December—three weeks. The moneys shown on page 6. This shows that the ac- arc only paid quarterly, and the amount tual cost was £5,941 6s 3d. I mention for the last quarter of the financial year that to get at the actual cost. It was es- will come into the following year's state- timated at 49,850; as a fact it has cost ment. So far as this account is concerned, £5.941. Then there have been savings of it only deals with the increased duty for expenses under various heads—almost three weeks. The duty on coffee and every head—set out on pages 7 and 9. chicory came into force on 22nd September, There has been a. large saving in the cost 1916, and, therefore, about six months' re- of police ; the number of men has been re- ceipts have come into the financial year last duced very considerably. I think 19 men past; the duty was increased from id to 3d have left the force, and £1,576 has been

Financial Statement,—Deputy-Governor on Revenue and Expenditure. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. 471 saved under that head, as compared with guards provide 25,000 persons in round the estimate. In. the total, .4,500, or numbers. It is estimated that at thereabouts has been saved on the actual least 4,000 men left the Island in expenditure, as compared with the esti- emmection with the army and navy mated expenditure. If to that amount you it nd for other purposes. It may in- add the difference in the cost of the Volun- terest members to know that according to teers, you have a total difference of some- the Census the total number of males in the thing like £6,500 in the expenditure, as es- Isle of Man for 20 years and upwards was timated and the actual expenditure. With 14,053 persons. If we deduct from that regard to the estimates for the current 4,000 males who have left the Island, we - year,- as shown on page 10, the total esti- have a total number resident of men 20 mates, showing a surplus of £22,378, have years and upwards of 10,000. So you been framed on the basis—(1) that the war have 25,000 men connected with the camps, will not conclude before 31st March, 1917; as compared with 10,000 resident in the (2) that the population at the Detention Island. It must be quite clear from those Camps both as regard prisoners and guards figures that, with regard to tobacco, for in- will not materially change during the year ; stance, a very large proportion of the (3) that the normal population of the amount consumed is derived from the con- Island will continue to decline by the opera- sumption at the Camps by the alien tion of the Military Service Acts; (4) that prisoners and guards. 'With regard to tea, the duties of Customs will be continued at coffee, sugar, and cocoa, the same remark the existing rates. Now, as regards the applies, except, of course, that these items. first point, it is impossible, it appears to • are calculated per head of the population, me, to frame an estimate on any other and not on the number of males. You bases. We cannot possibly tell whether the have in the camp 25,000 persons consuming IN a r will end or when it will end. The these articles, as against 48,000 men and safest course, I think, is to assume that the women and children ordinarily resident in war will continue, at all events, until 31st the Island. Still, they are all able-bodied March, 1917. We see various prophecies in men, and must consume a very much larger the Press from time to time, but, as a amount of these articles—except the sugar, matter of fact, no man living can tell how than, of oouree, is the average in the soon or how late there will be a termination Island. With regard to beer and spirits, of the war. The figures being based on that £85,000 is estimated. No increase or de- assumption, one will see that, should the crease in the duty arising from those is war terminate before March 31st, we should suggested. It is difficult to apportion the probably have a very considerable failing amount, because no beer or spirits is sup- off in the receipts of the Island from plied to the 23,000 or more aliens. But Customs Duties. It would probably mean the guards, I understand, have quite con- that the Camps would disappear, and that sumed from time to time their full share of the expenditure on the Camps will disap- alcoholic refreshments. (Laughter). I pear ; so that a considerably smaller sum of have reason to think a very considerable money will be available for the purchase of proportion of the duties is derived from the dutiable articles, and the consumption of 2,500 guards and attendants—more than them by aliens and guards wilt disappear, from the 10,000 ordinary residents. and simply leave the amount to be derived mention these matters to show the great from the resident population. Supposing importance, from a revenue-prodncing point• the war terminates during the year, in any of view, of the Camps in connection with case we should miss this season, so far as our revenue. The estimates with regard visitors arc concerned. Should the war to these matters have been carefully gone terminate at the end of the season, noth- into—as to the amounts to be expected by ing like the same amount would be derived war of revenue. Some of these items may, from Customs Duties. On page 10 of the at the first glance, appear not to be eor- Estimates, is set out in the Appendices, the meet. For instance, tea is estimated to estimated amount to be received on various produce £20,0U0. as against £12,000 last duties, the total amount is £115,455. ►ear. The tea duty has been increased. Separating the items under the different sin satisfied that, on 31st March, the headings, the amount to be derived from termination of the last financial year, there the tax on tea, coffee, sugar, and cocoa is was a very considerable quantity of tea in £40,000. The amount to be derived from the Island, on which the old rate of duty- tobacco is estimated at £39,628, which 1 had been paid, but which had not been eon- call £40,000 and the amount from beer sunied. The quantity of tea imported into and spirits is £35,000. The aliens and the Island, during the twelve months end-

Financial Statement.—Deputy-Governor on Revenue and Expenditure. 4i2 IITIONALD COtRT, JUNE 27, 1916. ing 31st March, was much larger than one knew what the amount would be, so it was would have anticipated could have been not a matter that could be dealt with last consumed, so an allowance had to be made year. I hope it will be attended to in the for that, and I think if we take the figure future. On the expenditure side the of £20,000, it is a safe figure to go upon, figures are very much the same as in former assuming that the duties are continued at years, except that• the votes for agriculture the increased rate. I do not propose to and advertising are not estimated for. take up your time by dealing with other During the war these sums will not be items in detail. They have been very care- voted. I do not think on these heads there fully considered in the Government Office, is anything that calls for any particular and by myself personally. The only items explanation. Then I come to the Accumu- now remaining in what is called the "com- lated Fund, on page 26 of the Statement. mon purse" arrangement are tobacco, It shows there that we ended the year with wine, and motor spirit. I am not satisfied with the "common purse" arrangement be- a balance of £70,105 19s 3d. To be added tween the Imperial Government and the to that there is the surplus from general Manx authorities as regards tobacco, and account, £10,871 17s 10d, and certain other steps will be taken to obtain an Order ;11 sums for interest on loans, which brings the Council that the revenue from tobacco shall total amount• up to R84,749, Out of that, on be collected here. Where we have this page 27, you will see there have to be made large number of then in proportion to certain payments, the most important of general population, and no women and which are the payment of £10,000 as a war children, the consumption of tobacco must grant to the Imperial Government; £2,000 be relatively large, and we do not get the • to the War Distress Loans Committee, amount we are entitled to by a mere calcu- which was the amount borrowed' out of the lation per head of the population. I will £25,000 voted up to March 31st; £1,959 give an illustration. With regard to coffee 2s 2d, the grant towards the, now Secondary and chicory, that comes under the "com- School at Douglas; £1,000 for the mainten- mon purse." We received • in duty £479 ance of harbours; £1,000 for the increased last year. As a matter of fact, this year we ucommodirtion at Port Erin harbour ; and collected ourselves on those items in the several other smaller amounts. These alto- Island a sum of £708. We have lost con- gether with £17.67.5 is 9d, which, taken siderably by this being in the common from the sum of £84,799 3s lad, leaves a purse. It is only right to say that the balance of £67,073 Fs ld. To this has to figures have been agreed on as to how the be added the £4,500 invested in Isle of Man aliens are to be treated for revenue pur- Government 3z; per cent, stock, which leaves poses. There was some idea that they us £71,573 8s id. Now, in the ordinary should be treated as residents. So they are course, the surplus of £18,149 and other in one sense. They are actually calculated receipts from interest, and so on, amount- on the number of men in the Island week ing to £3.500, will be added to that, making by week. That is not "resident" ; a resi- a total for the year of £21,049, and bringing dent is a. person who is there all the year the £71,573 -up to a total of £93,322. Out round. The ordinary visitor is treated as of that certain payments have to be made a resident for so many days—how many for balances due. If you look on pages 28 visitors consume as much as one resident? and 29, you will see what these are• There But steps are being taken with a view to is the grant in aid of rates, £20,000, the el better arrangement with regard to those £25,000 to the War Distress Committee, of items, where the method is not right with which £23,000 is outstanding, which alone regard to the camps. With regard to make £43,000. There is another vote not tobacco, and, possibly motor spirit, I do not paid yet of £8,540 1.7s 10d for the Eastern think the present arrangement should con- District Higher Education Board towards tinue, and an effort will be made to effect the new Secondary School, and several a better arrangement with regard to those other smaller amounts, which total £52,121 duties. I was applied to by the hon. mem- 15s Sd. In addition to that sum there will ber for Ramsey for particulars of the duty be a certain amount which cannot yet be derived from the Common Purse. It was ascertained, as a Loan to local authorities in impossible for mo to give them. We did relief of rates. I have put, that. down at not get particulars from the Customs in £15,000. It may probably not be as much London until the beginning of the present as that,-but that is the estimate of the month, and that was the first time we Town Clerk of Douglas, to whom we are

Financial Statement.—Deputy-Governor on Revenue and Expenditure. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. 473

very much indebted for the assistance he Mr Kermode: I hope that they will deal has given us. He estimates that for the with, the Peel river at the name time. town of Douglas £7,272 17s 5d will be re- The Deputy-Governor: There are other quired. For that whole loan I have set expenses of that kind, but they will not be down £15.000, which, added to the £52,121 much. 15s 8d, makes £67,121., or, say, £67,000. If that is taken away from the £93,000, it Tim Receiver-General: Let us deal with leaves a balance in the Accumulated Fund one at a time. of £26,000. There are other items of The Deputy-Governor: There is no sug- revenue which we will lose this year, such gestion that anything should be expended, as passenger tax and harbour dues, which but it may come up for discussion and may are estimated at £5,000. The expenses of have to he dealt with. I think that I will the harbours were usually paid out of that have drawn attention to all the items in fund, but will this year come out of the the Statement which are of importance, Accumulated Fund, and which we will have There are some figures in connection with to take into account, and which will reduce the fiscal population as compared with the the balance in the Accumulated Fund to census population which may prove of £21,000, and that does not allow anything interest. The census population for 1911 whatever for any expenses outside the was 52,016. The daily average of aliens at actual expenditure already taken. There Knockaloe Camp to the 31st March was ire several matters which may have to be 11,026, and at the Douglas Camp 2,499, dealt with, which both the Receiver- and the daily average of troops at Knock- General and the Vicar-General have drawn aloe and Douglas, 1,351, while at Ramsey attention to, due to the large quantity of there has been a daily average, of 200 soil washed down the Sulby river. I have troops. This is a total of 68,811, and the been stopping at Ramsey, and have noticed fiscal equivalent of visitors last year wa s under Greenland the amount of soil which 1,719. The total fiscal population for is being washed away. It is causing de- 1914-15 was 68.811., as against 66,104 for posits in Ramsey harbour, which involve 1915-1.6, and 70,727 in 1912-13, so that with considerable expense in removal; but as it the troops and aliens we are practically, as is caused outside the limits of the harbour far as the fiscal population is concerned, in the Board are unable to deal with it. What as good a position as before the war. In I suggest lie that the Harbour Board and 1912, the visitors numbered 537,029, and the Highway Board should consider the the fiscal equivalent of that is 17,405. For whole scheme of the Sulby river, and con- the year ending December 31st, 1915, the sult with the owner of the property to see number of visitors was 53,055, the fiscal what can he done to prevent the wastage equivalent of which is 1,719. I think that of land and the great expense in the har- these figure.s will he of interest to members bour. I see in their report the Harbour as giving some idea. as to how the popula- Board say:— tion is estimated in connection with our Large quantities of sand and soil are brought visitors with regard to the balances in down by the river from time to time, and de- the Accumulated Fund. For the past five Posited at the tail of the Mooragh Bank, caus- years we have had considerable balances ing considerable memo in removal. On one which are increasing from year to year. In on two occasions the bank has extended to such an extent as to render it difficult to get a long 1915 we had a balance on revenue account vessel round the corner and up to the West of £10,871 17s 10d, and a balance in the Quay. Accumulated Fund of £74,665 19s 3d; in Except by the placing of waits or palings 1914 the balance on revenue account was along the banks of the river, at points where £11,667 3s 7d, and in the Accumulated the land is being washed away, it is difficult to Fund £74,320 18s 7d ; in 1913, £8,595 16s see how this deposit can be prevented. 4d on revenue account, and £68, 441 19s 2d The question is an urgent one, if this yearly expense is to be avoided, but as the cause of in the .Aecuniulated Fund ; 1912, £11,102 the trouble arises outside the limits of the 3s 5d on revenue account, and £68,749 harbour, the Board arc unable to take any 13s 5d in the Accumulated Fund; and in steps in the matter. 1911. £10,31.2 14s 3d on revenue _account, I do not know (continued the Deputy- and £61,491 9s 2d in the Accumulated Governor) what the work will cost, but I Fund. In tho year previous to that the understand it will not be a very serious balance in the Accumulated Fund was amount. £55,479; and it goes smaller every year.

Financial Statement.—Deputy-Gov ernor on Revenue and Expenditure. 474 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916.

Mr Kermixle: is it open for members I think that it would be better for us not to make any remarks on the, statement? to go into the question of taxation to-day, The Deputy-Gov.Crnor: Yes, after I have My view is that we should not take any fitished. I do not think there is anything of the votes to-day in connection with else which I wish to refer to. Some re- taxation. The figures in the statement are marks were made last week which suggested too large a matter to go into without con- that tne financial statement was issued just sideration, and what 1 propose is that we before the last sitting of the House of should adopt what was done on a former Keys, so as to affect the policy of the occasion and appoint an advisory committee House, or induce_ the House to a certain to act along with the Governor, to consider action. I must disclaim eny such inten- the question of the taxation proposed, and tion. My whole intention was to get the report to the Court on July 5th. I do not statement into the hands of members before want to rush the Court in any way, but to the Court on July 5th. Several members afford them the fullest possible information of the Hence spoke to mo an to the finan- and the fullest possible amount of time, so cial position, and it was suggested that a that they can come to a sound conclusion, deputation of the House might wait on me (Hear, hear.) to ascertain what really the financial posi- air Kermode ; 1 see by the returns of the tion was ; but it was much better that the Customs duties that there has been a de- whole statement should be before them. crease of £10,704 in the receipts from With the execution of the last financial spirits and beer during the past year. The statement, this .year's statement has been total of the other duties is £21,198. The issued later Mrs,: any statement as far back grand total of Customs duties for the year as 1909. lo 1909 the financial statement is £96,029. This decrease is notwith- was itted on May 26th in 1910, on June standing the fact that there was an in- ith ; in 1911, on May 12th in 1912, on crease in the rate of the beer duties last May 14th ; i-A 1913, on May 20th; in 1914, year. But, of course, your Excellency will on Juno 9th.; mid in 1915, on July 6th, explain that by showing that it is only Tynwald Day. I think that it will be seen three weeks of the beer duties that come by this that the statement this year was into this year's revenue, if we deduct those behind. the usual time, 1 think that it was items, the other duties show an increase my duty to let the members know what the of £21,198, and, allowing for the loss on the financial position was as soon as possible. spirit; and beer, there is a net increase of My personal wish was that these Bills £10,341. There is £1,715 6s 8d of an in- should carry, as I was pledged to the Trea- crease in the tea duties; £9,216 in the sury to carry these Bills if possible, as we tobacco; £8,359 in the sugar ; nothing in were carrying out the wish of the Treasury the wine; £426 in the coffee; £682 in the as expressed in their letter, that additional cocoa—there was nothing tinder that head taxation should be imposed to replace the in 1915; and £800 in the motor spirit—of large amount of money voted; for relief. course, that is am increase, too. Adding The financial statement was only issued in these items together, you have£21,198 Os the ordinary course. 1 should like to say 8d. 041 the other hand, the revenue from that T was extremely sorry that the House spirits. a.nd beer has fallen from £38,813 to did not meet on the day of the visit of the £28,600—a net decrease of £10,341. Your Home Secretary, Mr Samuel, so that the Excellency lies estimated an increase in House could hove met him and welcomed Beer and spirits of £5,342 and this not- him to the Island. However, the House withstanding the loss of £10,000 odd. this had previously come to the conclusion not year. Of course, you will have the in- to sit on that day, and we only knew that c.r.Vlise in the rate of the beer ditty 10[- the Home Secretary was coming to the 1916-17. Then on tea you estimate an in- Island at. 6-30 on Monday evening. He cre.ase of £7,905, on tobacco £1,242, on came specially to the Island, on his was' sugar £4,415, on coffee £521, on cocoa hark from Ireland, to visit. the camps, and M8, on motor spirit 2215---a total of he spent the whole day on that business, £19,860. Thou yeu estiinate a loss on wine with the exception that he had conversa- of £331. That leaves a net increase of tions From time to time with various people £19,529. 1 am not speaking particularly interested in the many difficulties which from the temperance point of view, but I have arisen on the Island. T am told that ;on pleased to see that there has been a a Home Secretary visited. the Island some reduction in the sale of spirits. Still, we forty years ago, but I do not remember have to look at the question from a finan- that such an event had happened before. cial point of view. Your Excellency esti- _ Financial Statement.—Deputy-Gavernor on Revenue and Expenditure. TYNWALD COURT JUNE 27, 1916. 475

mates a halarice next year of over £23,000. £6,000 per year, at the very least. That Referring to the Accumulated Fund, your is not on the whole tea duty, but simply Excellency has already explained that, not- the increase. The increase in the sugar withst:'naing fee apparent balance of duty, again, is at least £2,500—as for the L93,000, you have brought it down by vari- tobacco tax, I have not attempted to esti- ous granite to £26,000 odd. That shows mate the increase. With these matters that there is nothing left in the Fund, if before me, I should hesitate before I de- we are to adhere to the agreement with the clined to sign these votes. But, knowing Imperial Government that the Accumulated that these increases have arisen through Fund is always to stand at least at £25,000. the war, and knowing the distress which There is not a penny left in the Fund for exists in the Island because of the war, any improrementa in the Island. The feel that the surplus which has been so de- question arises, What is our net balance? rived should be devoted to the object of And is there, or is there not, a. further nec- relieving this distress. Unless Ihad some essity for increased taxation? I find that assurance that it was to be so devoted, I in the next year's estimates, as already should not feel disposed to sign the votes. given, the increase in the dirties from beer, I feel, therefore, all the more pleased spirits, and wine will be £4,256; in tea, that your Excellency has offered to refer sugar, coffee, and cocoa, £24,924; and in the matter to a Committee, and I have .tobacco, £10,048. So you see, the prin- very great pleasure in seconding the cipal taxation for next year will come from motion made by the lion. member for articles of food. Peel. Mr Cormode: There is no motion before The Deputy-Governor : I may say—it has the Court, and I hope we are not going been stated by the hon. member for North to have a debate without a motion. 1 Douglas that what has been done was was delighted to hear your Excellency's done under the pressure of circumstances closing remarks, that you don't intend to —I omitted to say that any food taxation proceed with the motions that stand in imposed upon the people of the Isle of the name of the Attorney-General, but Man has been imposed under extreme you intend to ask the Court to appoint a pressure from the Treasury, and in order . Committee. I move that the course sug- to get matters through at all. It is only gested by your Excellency be adopted, and fair that the members of the Court, and we proceed now to appoint a Committee the public generally, should know that the to confer with your Excellency, and to increased taxation imposed by the Court report later on as to what is the best course has been imposed in order to make it pos- to take, in view of the very large realised sible to get anything done to relieve the surplus and the very large prospective distress in the Isle of Man. surplus. Mr A. Qualtrough : May I ask your Mr Garside: I beg leave to second that. Excellency a question? I understood that For my part, I feel very much relieved by your Excellency went. away to try to get the course that your Excellency suggests. some more money for this borrowing I think I stated on the occasion when scheme, and that the Treasury gave your these duties were increased, that • I was Excellency strict instructions that you sorry to vote for the increasing of the were to put on a land tax, and you have duties before other methods of taxation come back and taxed the tea. Is that were adopted. It was done under pres- right? (Loud laughter.) And you put sure of circumstances, and what I feel this £5,000 on the people's tea, instead of morning is that I should not be prepared putting the tax on land. to sign for these duties being continued without some scheme being taken in hand to The Deputy-Governor : That is not so. dispose of the estimated surplus of £22,000 It was the Keys that rejected the tax on for the coming year. (Hear, hear:) At land. I don't know whether the hon. member did his best to get the land tax the same time, I should, under present through. circumstances, hesitate very much before taking that course, because I know that a The motion For the appointment of a fair amount of that increase of taxation Committee was ca cried un aa~imously. has been derived from sources which have Mr Cormode: There has already been a not affected the people of the Isle of committee to deal with finance. Imean Man. In the matter of tea, alone, I the original committee; later on, there estimate the increase in the duty is nearly were seine changes, and the committee .;s Financial Statement.—Deputy-Governor on Revenue and Expenditure, 416 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. not so perfect now, in my eyes, as it was funds at all. So that this staff is appar- then. The hon. member for Ramsey ently required to deal with our own resigned from membership of that com- Insular affairs. mittee. The original committee, I think, The Attorney-General Not "war work," would meet the views of every one of us. but work dealing with the Camps only. It would save time if we agreed upon that There is a great deal of work connected committee now. with the war, such as war legislation of a The Deputy-Governor That is the com- general character, and other work. I mittee that was appointed by resolution thought time statement quoted by the hon. of the :31st August, 1915, to consult with member referred to the Camps. his Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor Air Crennell : I took it to refer to various on finance. 'Pl'he committee consisted of governmenal measures that were under- the Clerk of the Rolls, the Attorney- taken. For instance, the work of the wire- General, the Speaker, Mr R. S. Corlett, less telegraphy, and so on. At any rate, Mr Cowell, Mr Crennell, and Mr Carine. for our own local requirements, it does The Receiver-General: I would move seem that the expenditure of this large the appointment of Deemster Callow in sum of money—rather less this year, I am place of the Clerk of the Rolls. The glad to notice, than last year—is very Clerk of the Rolls is now Deputy- heavy, as compared with what it was a few Gevernor. years ago. What I really wanted to call The Attorney-General: depends attention to i5 that not only have we this upon circumstances. staff, but tinder the same heading, we have The Receiver-General: Perhaps we had it special vote for the preparation of the better leave it, then. Statistical Abstract,. I would ask, seeing The Deputy-Governor: I have jest re- that we have this largo staff, whether this ceived a telegram informing me that his • work could not he done without a special Excellency will return directly. It is vote. I don't know who does it, 7 under- only fair that the Court should know that. stand that some years ago it was done by The motion was carried unanimously- a. person outside Government Office, but - Ilr Crennell: This discussion on the that the gentleman who did this Financial Statement is always more or work does not do it, now. it would less unsatisfactory. It is gradually seem that this is work which obviously beeomini.2,- more satisfactory I think, should be done by the staff at Government since we now have all the voted' services Office, and that this sum ought to be saved. submitted in a series of resolutions to the This is only a small amount, but those who Court. There are other matters in con- take care of the pence don't need. some- nection with the Financial Statement times, to worry about the pounds. There which ought to call for scrutiny and pos- is another item that I view with consider- sible criticism or remark. There is no able suspicion and jealousy. That is the motion, as the hon. member for Peel says, amount which seems to be spent under the before the Court, but it has always been Cattle Diseases Act. Last year it was the custom to have remarks based on the £452, an increase of nearly £30 on the year presentation of the Financial Statement. before, and this year it is estimated that it 1 don't think this is a very satisfacory will be still higher, £470. This is a com- arrangement, hut. don't know what to paratively new sum to go into our expendi- suggest. that would improve it. There ture, and it, is a growing amount, and a are one or two items which struck me in somewhat serious amount. I don't know going through the Financial Statement, what work is done for the money, beyond which we got last week. Last year, I the maintenance of the Mirage at Douglas, called attention to what seemed to be the and so far as I know, there is no serious excessive cost of the Government Office, and outbreak of contagious cattle disease any- the smile thing is bound to strike one in where in the Thitish Isles just now. It looking over the Statement. There is the seems to me that at times like the present, Governmeet Secretary, two principal this is a very serious item, and one that clerks, a senior clerk, and two junior this Court should keep carefully in view. clerks—six of a staff, where there used to There are some other matters which occur be only three. We were told that any -to me. but they will come up on the differ- extra war work at Government Office ent votes which we take up. These are world not he paid for out of the Insular matters which won't come up. They are

Financial Statement.—Dmnity-Governor nu Revenue and Expenditure. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. 977 reserved services, as they are called. May across at its widest point, I do hope that I say that what cannot but strike anyone something will be done which will reflect reading this statement, is the immense credit on the persons who are dealing with difference in the realised surplus and the the matter. anticipated condition of affairs. We antici- Mr Radcliffe: The hon. member has pated a deficit of £26,000; we have trans- Ramsey has spoken about the amount of formed that into a surplus of £18,000. And money spent under the Cattle Diseases Act. but that we have thrown away, worse than I hare always heard it said that prevention thrown away, £6,000 on Volunteers—(hear. is better than cure. I eltould suppose that hear)—the surplus realised would have been the bon_ member for Ramsey was the last £24,000. That is, we have changed a man to desire an outbreak of cattle disease deficit of £26,000 into a surplus of £24,000 to occur in the Isle of Man. I think the —a difference of £50,000, every penny of Local Government Board is acting with which—this is the striking thing—has come wisdom and discretion in endeavouring to from indirect taxation, which is recognised get the supply of food as pure and whole- throughout the world as the poor man's tax, some as they possibly can, and as for the I don't want to debate the matter in detail trifle of money that is spent on that work, just now, but this point cannot fail to strike we have no reason to complain. As for the anyone going through the report. And not Sulby river, everything is in proper order only leo, but next year we look forward to to go on. Plans have been prepared, a surplus of £22,000, and again, but for everything is ready, and I expect that at the outrageous expenditure of R20,000 on the next Tynwald Court the whole matter Volunteers, we should look forward to a will be laid before members. The hon. surplus of £42,000. It is amazing. Some member seems to think that this is a little years ago a Commission was appointed to matter., It is not. (Laughter.) It is the go into the cost of Old Age Pensions, and greatest undertaking that has been taken they presented a report that Old Age Pen- -up in the North of the Island for the last sions would east £20,0100. And we all, I fifty years, and I expect that when we have along with the rest, held up our hands in finished, it will be completed—(loud laugh- absolute helplessness, and said, "This is far ter)—and that there will he no difficulty in beyond -us, utterly impossible, beyond the restraining the river. dreams of anything that this Court could Mr Gereide: S.seing thnt the matters con- do. If it was £10,000, or £12,000, as was tained in the Financial Statement haw at first suggested, we might undertake it; been referred to a committee, I don't think but £20,000 is utterly out of the question." is would be wise to enter into any detailed And now, when the sovereign is only worth examination of the question to-day, but 12s, when wages have not been raised to there is one pint in your Excellency's re- any appreciable extent in the Isle of Man, marks te which should like to draw atten- under smolt conditions, we have raised tion. Whether T have not understood your £50,000 in one year from only one source of Excellency clearly, I am riot sure. In re- taxation. I will go into this matter a little ferring to the Ami/misted Fund, at the more fully, perhaps, when we come to the ,lose of vOer remarks, your Excellency left question of the taxation'neeessary for next. it to be understood that at the cud of the year. But it is so striking a fact that I year there would be a balance in the Aeon- feel it my duty to bring it before the Court. muleted Fund of £26,000 or thereabouts. May I add that i was very pleased' to hear To iny mi rid, on looking at the amounts your Excellency's remarks with regard to stated in pp. 28 and 2t) of the Financial the Sulby river. I have always thought Statement, it is likely that the surplus will that it is not to the credit of this Legisla- be very mesh larger. I don't think that ture, or of the different bodies that have to the 8,000 put down for the Higher Educa- deal with the matter, that we cannot tackle tion Board of the Eastern District is likely a little stream, and harness it, and keep to be required. end then you speak of the it in bounds. It might be the Amazon, or sum required for the Item as £15,000. The the Yang-Tse-Kiang, or some river of that Town Clerk of Douglas estimates that fig- sort. It seems to be beyond the powers of ure as £7.000, so that even if the other man to deal with it, anyway. Year by parts of the Island are included, I don't year it gets worse, and it threatens finally Pee that more than £1.0,000 will be needed. to wash away the whole north of the Island The Deputy-Governor: Time £7,000 re- —a stream that you can almost jump ferred to is only a part. They want to bor-

Financial Statement,—Deputy-Gov ernor on Revenue and Expenditure. 178 TYNWALD COURT, 7 UNE 27, 1916.

row a third of the deficiency from the Gov- think there is any further remark I wish ernment, but they also want to borrow to to make, but I take it that subject to the meat the deficiency in respect of rates that report of the Committee appointed to-day, are not paid and made chargeable. to suc- the estimates will be taken as they are laid ceeding years. I have added the two before the Court. Some members seem to amounts together. It should be remem- be under the impression that the sum of bered, too, that this item will increase from .00,000 given in. the estimates is connected year to year if the war continues, as we wit]: the present coat of the Volunteers. all hope it may not. There will be More That is not so. That sum is the amount of empty properties, 'and the ernousit required expenditure incurred during the past year. for loan and grant will probably increase There is expense going on now, but not to considerably. the same extent. This payment is in re- Mr Curphey 1 would like to ask your spect of the year ended the 31st M.arelt, Excellency if, considering the strong feeling 1915. there is throughout the island about the Mr Crennell : I knew that. VoluntLers, and the great expenditure on Mr Ourphey: But it is estimated for them, you intend to proceed, in spite of this 1917. feeling, to mobilise and maintain these Mr Crennell : It has to be paid for during Volunteers in our midst? We all consider that year. that they are not giving ma value for the The Deputy-Governor: The hon. member money expended on them. If your Excel- may take it from me that the expenditure lency could give us a lead to-day as to what this year will be very much less. It is you intend doing, it would be very accept- more like a matter of £5,000 or £6,000. able to the Isle of Man. Mr Curphey: That is .barter. The Deputy-Governor : With, regard to Mr A. Qualtrough: Do I understand that the question put by the hon, member for the War Office reoognises these Volunteers Michael. I have only to ray that the matter in any way? And do 1 understand his Ex- of the Volunteers is one for the War Office. cellency to say that the War Office would Thery have been communicated with from hew to disband them? Should not the time to time, and the expenses are being man who created them, and put the Manx cut down, I am informed, as far as they people to this expense-- possibly can he, and the sum is gradually The Deputy-Governor The control of the getting, less, aed until the War Office see lit Volunteers is, under the Isle of Man Volun- to demobilise, nothing further can be done. teer Act, vested in the English Govern- With regard to the expenditure connected ment. Of course, it is quite open for this with the lairage, I think that the opinion Court, or either branch, of it, to express its of the hon, member for Ayre, MeRadeliffe, opinion with regard to the necessity there might ehange.if these expenses were met bY is for the Volunteers, and bring any pres- a rate under the Cattle Diseases Act, sure it can bring upon the Imperial author- (Ieeurnhter from Mr Crennell.) The Act ities. I suppose it is always open for tibia provides that it shall be lawful for the Tri- Court to .raiee any question on, the so-called weld Court to levy a rate on certain classes "reserved" services. I don't wish mem- of property which are specified, for the ex- bers to think that the Court has no right eensue of carrying the Act into execution. to discuss the matter. It hoe a right to In my opinion, this sum should not come discuss any matter connected with the re- out of th e revenue. I will go further, and venue. Whether it will succeed in carry- say that I don't think the work is worth ing out its view, is another matter. the expense at the present time, when stack is so dear. Again, the matter is not under Mr A. Qualtrough,: After his Excellenefe the control of the Local Government Board, statement, I move that the Volunteer be but of the Governor, under the powers disbanded forthwith. (Loud laughter.) vested in him by the Cattle Diseases Act. Mr Ourphey: I second that. (Laughter.) I do not suppose I shall be in a position to Tho Deputy-Governor: I am afraid that say whether this payment shall continue that resolution is not in order. for the coming year or not. With regard Mr A. Qualtrough: I take it that your to the expenditure on the clerical staff at Exeelleney will tell the War Office that this Government Office, I have no remark to resolution hies been moved in the Tynwald make about it. That is a. matter for the Court. Another question I would like to permanent officiale, and it is regulated ask is whether all ladies that come to the more or less by the Treasury. I don't Island are to be treated like that Miss

Financial Statement.—Deputy-Governor on Revenue and Expenditure, TYNWALD COURT, ;JUNE 97, '1916, 479

Dillon was, under the Defence of the Realm the question of tAxalion, 1 propose now to Act? (Laughter.) postpone the various duties and take the The Deputy-Governor: I haven't the matter at the bottom of page 3 of the least idea what the hon. member is refer- agenda—House of Keys' Expenses. ring to but it doesn't arise on the Finan- c,al Statement. HOUSE OE KEYS EXPENSI118, Mr Garside: 1 beg leave to move the Mr A. Qualtrough : You are going to ask for a big sum of money for the runninistra_ motion which stands in my name, I think members will find particulars in connection Lion of the Defence of the Realm Act. I with that vote on page 20. There is noth- don't know whether I shall be put in prison They are just the for asking the question--(laughter)—but 1 'ng 1 wish to remark. usual !natters of detail for the year ended hope that this is the last lady that will be 31si. -3Iarch, 1917:- treated in that way. (Voices: Who is That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be she ?l • authorized to apply from the current revenue Mr Cormode: 1 am not sure if I clearly of this Island a sum not exceeding £160 for the heard your Excellency, but 1 understood purpose of defraying, during the year ending you to say that you considered that the Mst March, 1917, the expenses connected with question of the expenditure on Govern- the House of Keys. ment Office was 'entirely a matter for the Mr Canine seconded the motion, and it permanent officials, and, therefore, was he. was agreed to. yond our control TYNWALD COURT EXPENSES. The Deputy-Governor: It is quite open to the Court to express its opinion. Mr 3. R. Kerruish moved:— That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Mr Cormode: I took your Excellency to authorized to apply from the current revenue say that you had no right to control it. of this Island a sum not exceeding £200 for the The Deputy-Governor: What 1 said was purpose of defraying, during the year ending that seeing that I was only a temporary 31st Mara, 1917, the expenses connected with holder of this office, I did not consider it the Tynwald Court. my duty to move in the matter. Mr Walton seconded the mot:on. and it Mr Cormode: That is better. These per- was carried. manent officials take rope enough without our giving them more. UNATTACHED OFFICERS. Mr Crennell: With regard to the motion The Attorney-General: In the absence of submitted by the hon. member for Rushee, the Vicar-General, I more the resolution which was ruled omit of order, while your set down in his name:— Excellency will not take such a motion That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be without notice, it is open to the hon. mem- authorized to apply from the current revenue of this Island a 4uin not exceeding £668 for the ber to move that the War Office be re. purpose of defraying, during the year ending quested to disband the Volunteers. I list March, 1917, the following salaries:— raised that question before, and got very Surgeon to the Household £40 0 little support, but probably the Court is H.M. Chaplain. Oastletown 100 0 0 wiser now. 11.M. Chaplain, St. John's 100 0 0 Thee Deputy-Governor : Oh, yes, and not Clerk to the Northern Deemster 80 0 0 Clerk to she Justices. Douglas 100 0 0 only so, but on this Financial Statement Clerk to the Justices, Ramsey 40 0 0 there is opportunity for very wide discus- Clerk to the JUgticee, Peel 40 0 0 sion. That is the practice in the House of Clerk to the Justices, castletow n 40 0 0 Commons, end I think is is desirable that Six Coroners 120 0 0 it should be so here. I 11.ave no wielh to Admiral of the Herring Fleet 5 0 0 prevent discussion. Vicc-Admiral of the Herring Herring Fleet 3 0 0 Mr A. Qualtrough: Then I beg to give notice of motion that this Court requests £868 0 0 the War Office to demobilise the Manx Vol- Capt. Kitto seconded. unteers forthwith. Mr A. Qualtrough: With regard to the The Court adjourned for luncheon. first item of expenses, 1 would like to know The House resumed at three o'clock. who is Surgeon of the Household and all about it? CUSTOMS DUTIES. The Attorney-General: Dr. Caird. The Deputy-Governor: Following on the Mr A. Qualtrough: Yes, but there is no appointment of the Committee, to consider household, (Laughter).

Customs Duties.—House of Keys Expenses.—Tynwald Court Expenses,— Unattached Officers, 480 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916.

The Attorney-General: You did not ask gotiations have to go on, to arrive at sonic that, you know. Now, you have got the provisional arrangement. doctor, you want the household? Mr Crennell: There is no representative Mr A. Quathough: I want to know all of this Court involved in these negotiations, about it. I move that this vote be deleted. and we shall be faced with the statement as his Excellency has been off the Island that this arrangement has been .come to now for about eight months. This expense with the Treasury, and cannot go away is going on, and the doctor does not atten•J from it now. That is a sort of thing this the household, and there is no household Court does not want. should not the for him to attend to. Court be associated in some way with these Tho Attorney-General, This is a fixed sum negotiations? 'There is nobody so much in- —a stipend paid to the Surgeon to the terested in the matter as this Court. Household for medical attendance. The Attorney-General: You may depend Mr A. Qualtrongli But there is no upon it the best fight that can be made on household. behalf of this island is being made. The Attorney-General He is not bound Mr Kermode: Can you deal with this to he under the doctor, in bed. The doctor question until the Constitutional Reform has to be available, and is paid a fixed fee. Bill is passed? This Bill has not yet become It has nothing to do with particular medical attendance. Attorney-General: This amendment will require settlement, quite irrespective Mr A. Qualtrough: 1 move that this sum of the Bill to which the hon. member refers. he deleted. If there is no Reform Bill at all, this Mr Cormode: I would like to ask for matter will have to be settled. sone information with regard to the Gov- Mr Curphey: What is the difficulty? Is ernment Chaplains. A promise was given some time ago that the recommendation by it a financial matter; If so, what way is it Lord MacDommll's Committee would be going? Is it proposed that this Court carried out, and year after year that should pay something towards the chaplain, or that the chaplain should pay something promise has been renewed. to this Court? (Laughter). They have The Deputy-Governor: 1 am sorry for the been drawing money for the last hundred delay that has taken place. Negotiations years, and have done nothing for it. Is it have been going on all the time to come to proposed to pay us something for the an arrangement with the Treasury. It is amount. they have overdrawn? owing to the war that negotiations have We are still Mr licrmode: With reference to the not been proceeded with. Admiral and Vice-Admiral of the Fleet; at waiting to get to an arrangement with the Treasury. The matter has not been lost the present time there is neither the one nor the other. sight of, but there have been so many other • matters needing attention. It is no fault. The Attorney-General: Then lie does not here. get paid. 'Aft- Gormode: I quite expected that Mr Kermode: The last Admiral is SO answer. years old and confined_ to the house. if it The Attorney-General: His Excellency is was paid to him in the form. of a. pension, 1 most anxious to get a settlement of that would not object. matter. It is a negotiation with the Bishop The Deputy-Governor : There is no Vice- and the Treasury. No one is more anxious A dmiral. than the Bishop and myself to got a settle- The Attorney-General: There is an ment. Admiral. Mr Crennell: This Court, apparently, is Mr Kermode: Who is he? (Laughter). not represented in those negotiations. Are The Deputy-Governor: Does the hon. we supposed to accept the result? Is any- member know? body conducting them on our behalf ? • Mr Kermode: I cannot tell• I know who The Attorney-General : They are only ne- the last Admiral is, The Admiral of the gotiations which might form the subject of Fleet is an obsolete thing, and no manner agreement. The matter would be open to of use. the Court afterwards. This is a matter for Mr Commode: I. do not think the hon. a vote. There will be nothing done with- member represents the people of Peel on out the agreement of the Court. The ne- that subject. Mr Sa.rgeaunt referred to me,

Unattached Officers, TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. 481 and the people of Peel told me it was an possible. You have the estimates before office of great usefulness, and they would you in reference to Douglas hai'bour. it be sorry to see it done away with A name will be seen that, while we estimated an ex- was given to me to recommend if any man penditure of £4,617, we actually spent only was wanted. I do not think Acre was £2,579 is 9d. It was really a little more exactly a vacancy. 1 do not think it is than that, as about. £160 worth of old for the interests of the fishing industry that material was sold, and came into our this particular office should be abolished revenue, and has reduced expenses. This at all. year we are asking for £4,331. While ex- The motion was carried. penditure last year was estimated at £8,941, the actual expenditure was only £6,196, showing a saving of £2,744. I do not wish HARBOURS' MAINTENANCE AND any member of the Court to run away with REPAIRS. the idea that that was bad estimating. It The Receiver-C eneral moved the follow- was simply that., during the year. when any- ing resolution:— thing was put before the Board to be done, That this Court do approve the estimates the question was asked—Can this stand gavel submitted by the Harbour Gommissioners for for another year? If the answer was in the the maintenance of the harbours of this Island affirmative, the money was not spent. (including Victoria. Pier Buildings and Swing While we considered the efficiency of each Bridge, Douglas, and the Queen's Pier, Ramsey), for the yoar ending 31et March, 1917, amount- of the ports, the money was saved as much ing in the aggregate to £8,751, as set forth in as possible. That cannot go on for ever. the statements attached hereto. and do The time will conic when estimates Must authorize the grant to the Harbour Com- return to the normal, and a good deal of miesioneis of a sum not exceeding .R.6,372 8s this money will have to he spent in the to be applied, along with moneys in tho hands of the Commissioners, towarde, such mainten- future, At Port St. Mary there is an in- ance (to include tho salary of the Receiver- crease; last year we estimated £252 ; we General), such sum to be provided as here- spent £234; this year we estimate £300. under: We have some difficulty at the end of the Salary of Receiver-General (from pier. Owing, probably, to the propellers current revenue) £230 0 0 of the steamers, a bit of rock has been From current revenue— brought to the surface. At Port Erin there Amount received dur- is a great increase there over the actual ex- ing Year ended 31st March, 1916. from penditure last year, which was below the rents, bay fisheries , estimate, inasmuch as the new pier has and bowl licences... £755 18 6 come into operation. The new breakwater For Victoria Pier build was opened in April. Here, I may say, the ingv, 230 0 0 Board arc deeply . impressed with the satis- For Douglas Harbour Swing Dride-c. 565 0 0 factory work which has been done, and For Queen's Pier, which, we think, reflects very great credit ' Ramsey 10 0 0 on our engineer. With regard to Peel, a £1,56018 6 question may be asked about the accumula- From the Isle, of Man Ac. tion of sand. It is owing to the prevalence cumulated Fund— of winds which bring sands into the harbour Towards general main- tenance of Harbours 1,565 0 0 most. We have had a greater amount of For Queen's Pier, Ram- difficulty this year than last year, so that sey ...... 370 0 0 estimate is £650. There is nothing else in 1,935 0 0 the expenditure calling for attention. The From the Passenger Duty and total expenditure is £7,276, and the esti- Harbour Dues, or either of them, mated receipts are £3,364, so that the levied or to be levied at Dou- glas Harbour 2,346 9 6 balance, for which a further grant is re- From the Passenger Duty and quired from this Court, is £3,911. This Harbour Duos, or either of vote also includes the other votes for them, levied of to be levied general harbour expenses. Victoria Pier at Ramsey Harbour for Buildings expenditure is £230. There, Queen's Pier, Ramsey ...... 300 0 0 again, the expenses have been cut down to £6,372 8 a minimum; Douglas Swing Bridge, £566; Ramsey Queen's Pier, £680. Last year the The Receiver-General added : The aim of estimate was 2888; we spent 2822; this the Board, along with other Boards, is to year we budget for £680. There, again, exercise every economy, and all unnecessary the expenditure is brought. - down, and expenses have been cut down as much as probably will have to be made up in the

Harbour Maintenance and Repairs. 482 TYNWALD COURT, ,TUNT: 27, 1916. future. That makes a total of £8,751. For elementary education and expenses of administration .. £11,428 17 6 The sum voted under the resolution to-day For Government Grants under sub- is £6,372 8s. That has to be applied along sections 1 and 2, section 35 of with the moneys in the hands of the Har- the Higher Education Act ....„ 2.715 0 0 bour Commissioners, and makes lip a total For payments to Higher Education of £8,751. You may he sure the Commis- Boards under section 28 of the sioners are alive to the possible saving of Higher Education Act, 1907 „.... 240 0 0 all moneys, and nothing is being spent that .£14,38317 6 can be avoided. Mr Cormode: I second the motion. I do Continuing, the hon. member said: Fol- not think I need add anything. I am not lowing the example set by the Receiver- sure that some of the economy which is General, I do not propose to take up many being practised is not false economy. Some minutes of the time of the Court. I do work has been left undone, and I do nut not think the Court will be in the humour know that, in the end, it will he a saving. to discuss the education outlook. The Having regard to the flourishing state of Council of Education have been content. Manx Government finance, I am at a loss during the past year, to continue the to know why such pressure is being brought ordinary work of education, without 3e- to bear on the 'Boards. However, as the. veloping any new and, perhaps, startling Receiver-General's salary is included in tins ideas which might have caused a shack te vote, it gives one the opportunity of say- the Court.. We think this is hardly the ing that he earns every penny of it by his time to indulge in things of that sort, and constant attention to the work of the the work of the year has generally been of harbours. (Hear, hear). a routine character. The estimate before Mr A. Qualtrough: I would like to know the Court speaks, I think, for itself. It why the groynes in Peel Bay are not main- will be noticed that it is some £800 below tained. I was over there last week, and the expenditure of last year; £337 is less there is nothing showing but a few timber in connection with higher education, Sticks standing in the sand. MI the largely, as the report explains, because of timber is washed away, and there were the reduction of the evening classes, and the carts taking the sand out when I was there? decrease in the numbers attending the The Receiver-General: That is the Town higher education schools. Tit elemen- Commissioners' work; not the work of this tary education, the estimate is less by Court or the Harbour Commissioners. nearly £400, which is due, once again, to Mr A. Qualtrough : T should have thought the reduction in the numbers of pupils the taking away of the sand concerned the attending the schools. The decline in Harbour Commissioners. If is their fault numbers, which set in many years ago, the sand is there. Why are not these still continues. Of course it is not to be groynes maintained, if they are any good? wondered at this year, but it has been a The Receiver-General: It is not their marked feature of education returns for work. many years past. Elementary education has been continued in the Island on the Mr A. Qualtrough: I understood the usual lines, and the Council believe that engineer was away seeing groynes? satisfactory efficiency has been maintained. The Receiver-General: We have not gone During the year the new Edification Act, yet. which makes it compulsory on School Mr A, Qualtrough: T suppose the wind I3oards to make provision for blind and deaf and weather have beaten you ? children, earns into operation. The Council The Receiver-General: No. the fear of of Education have called the attention of the Germans. (Laughter.) the authorities to that legislation, but I do The vote was carried. not know that any cases have actually been ' dealt with. There are not many cases 'n PUBLIC EDUCATION. the Island. In regard to those we know of, we have called attention te them and have Mr Crennell moved— endeavoured to see that the Act is put into That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue operation. The same Act provides for of this Island a. sum not exceeding £14,383 17s mentally defective children, but that is 6d for the purpose of defraying, during the optional, and, so Far as I know, no steps year ending 31st March, 1917, the cost of Public have been taken during the past year to Education, as follows:— deal with that question. Perhaps it is

Public Education. TYNWALle COURT, -TUNE 27, 1916. 483 hardly a subject you can. expect, to have Council of Education: Whether it is a taken up by the different authorities during chili or Sunday-school treat, or whatever it present conditions. The Court will know is, they are supposed to give seven days' that for seine years past the Council had written notice. If, for any reason, they arranged drawing classes for the benefit of are closing with one or two days' notice, teachers. Those arrangements have been they are expected to telegraph. Only laSt practically completed now, and I think all year, for such a fixed matter as the Guild, the teachers in the Island linve had the noteies were received by post by the Council benefit of a two years' course of instruction, on the very morning that. the schools were and his Majesty's inspectors are- satisfied to he closed. That is meet unsatisfactory. that the results have been very successful. and the Council have notified School Boards In the same direction the Council have throughout the country that ttey intend made arrangements with some of the iarger to penalise such practices, and will withhold schools in Douglas and the other towns a portion of the grant where they per- whereby teachers of infant classes in sistently neglect this very important country schools—small classes where matter. With regard to higher education, teachers have had very little or no training, the Court will he aware that, in the Eastern and have not had the- advantage of studying District, the new Secondary Scheel is still up-to-date methods of dealing with infants hanging fire. The ground has been laid —the Council have made arrangements out., the walling has been completed, and, so with the managers of larger schools of big on, but the plan has been held up until the centres for these teachers coming into those termination of the war. The same thing schools and spending snore weeks or months, applies to a large extent in the Northern in order to see the latest methods of district; the scheme there is awaiting the training and teaching yeung children. The termination of the war. In the Western Council are anxious that this should he District, the Council are somewhat dis- known. (A member: "Have you made it appointed with the delay that has occurred. known P") Yes, the School Bonnie have Twelve months ago, the matter seemed :n been circularised to that effect. The very fair train for the opening of the Council have in view further developments Secondary School there. On 5th July, I in that way, when the time is oppor- think, a. conference was arranged of Peel tune, for having a peripatetic teacher authorities—the Baume Trustees, the to visit different schools in the Island, Grammar and Mathematical School Trus- and having seen the work carried tees, and the Clothworkers' -Trust, and so out in the schools, they would give a course on—and the matter was adjourned for fur- of lectures on Saturdays, which teachers ther negotiations with the Clothworkers' engaged in kinder-garten work, and so on, Company. I believe they are proceeding will have an opportunity of attending. satisfactorily, but the further conference Physical exercises is a subject which the has not been hold. The Council have tried Council consider should be developed in the to push matters on. I tried the other day, same way for the benefit of the scholars. and was told it was impossible to get the Those are things the Council have in Attorney-General and the Bishop to meet. view, but they have not yet come into I have seen them often sitting side by side operation. There :s one other matter in in this Court, and I do not connection with elementary education I know why they should refuse to meet would like to call attention to. A number one another. (Laughter). I hope of members of the Court are engaged in before long it will be possible to proceed the administration of the Education Acts, with the matter. and that before next and they will be interested. The Council year we may be able to report of Education have had occasion to com- that some scheme of secondary edu- plain frequently for years past, and cation has been put. in operation in the recently very strongly, of the closing of Western District. Another matter which schools without due notice to the Council. has arisen is the frequent inability in the This has involved great inconvenience and Eastern District, and to some extent in the expense. It has happened sometimes -..hat Northern District, for the authority to get the inspector has gone to a school to inspect a quorum at their meetings. For months. it and has found the school closed. Now, I believe, the Eastern Board failed to get the law is very clear that they are to give a meeting. The Council Called pointed at least seven days' notice in writing to the attention to this, and some members of the

Public Education. 484 YNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 191.15.

Higher Education Board resented it. One that have not been held, and it does not of them sent a. letter which I would not like interfere with the working of the Board. to read at this Court. It did not reflect The Archdeacon ; Is not that rather mis- very satisfactorily on the gentleman who leading? The format business is done by the wrote it. He resented very-keenly our Committees of the Board and the Governors interference. But it seems deplorable that of the school. members controlling higher education Mr Walton; During the month the busi- should have failed time after time to get a ness is done by the Committees. There is quorum. _ the Management Committee, the Finance The Deputy-Governor : What is the Committee, the Building Committee, and quorum? the Governors. They meet regularly Mr Crennell: In the Eastern District it and do all the business, and then, is 19, and in the Northern District nine. once a month, a formal meeting is held to pass the reports of the various Mr Curphey: There are 17 on the Board. sub-committees. The minutes of the CAW- Mr Crennell : They have failed, two 'athes are not even read at this meeting, months in succession, to get a quorum. as they are printed and handed to the re- That made about three months hetween the porters for the public. it is simply a purely meetings, formal matter for the benefit of the public. Tht Attorney-General: Have they power The real work is done by the sub-commit- themselves to fix a quorum? They can fix tees, and then the members of the Com- it lower. mittees meet and hand the reports to the Mr Crennell: Still, if you get eight men absent out of 17, it does not show very The Attorney-General: I did not intend much interest in the work. to speak, except se defendom. The Attorney-General: The other nine The mover of the resolution spoke would probably be very much the best men. about the difficulty cif getting the Lord Bishop and myself to meet Mr Crennell: It is not satisfactory that the Higher Education authorities of the higher education has been injured as it is Western District. I do not know where the in this way. During the year we have had difficulty has arisen, as far as I am con- the pleasure of welcoming a new member, cerned, as I have been on the Island from Colonel Moore, who has not only given us June of last year up to January, and then advice, hut has placed his motel- car from the beginning of February up to the at the disposal of the Council. (Laugh- present, so that there cannot have been any ter)—and it has proved most helpful. I real practical difficulty in catching me for hope it is only the beginning of what wi!l a meeting. I thought that there was some follow in years to come. We appreciate feeling that, under the present circum- Col. Moore's services, we greatly appreciate stances, it was better that this matter his motor car, and we also appreciate the should not be pressed forward. I rather work done by our staff—Mr Brown, our gathered that from information that I had secretary, and his assistants. (Hear, hear.1 I may further say that, after the meeting Mr Waltoli: I second the motion, but at I attended, the only meeting that has been the same time I feel that I must make some successful in being held, the question defence of the charge against the Eastern arose at the meeting with regard to the District Secondary Board. It is true that position of the Clothworkers' Company. Ti the public meetings have not been well is known that they are the owners of the attended, but those are not the business new schools in Peel, and they have let tilm meetings where the real work is done. They on lease, which has yet some years to run, are only formal meetings where the work to the Peel School Board. By that means done during the past month is confirmed the School Board have been relieved of the and usually do not last more than fiv? necessity of providing new schools in Peel. minutes. They are purely formal, and the There is in the school, a,_-centmodation wh=c11 reporters are present to get the informa- was designed for the purposes of higher tion for the public. The real working education. The Committee to which the meetings have been held without exception Bishop belongs, I belong, and the High- The members turn up at these working Bailiff of Ramsey and the Vicar of German meetings where all the business is done, and belong, have the management of a trust it is really the only purely formal meetings which brings in some £200 to £300 a year.

Public Education. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1914. 4A5

That money is for the purposes of higher Attorney-General and the Bishop displayed education. I have always held that money in the matter was appreciated, so much was is available for any scheme of higher educa- it so that it was felt that it was not worth tion which is adopted, but in the meantime holding a further conference if they were it is being used by the School Board for the not present. I know I got an invitation to higher grades of education in the publio another conference, and later got a letter elementary school. It is not allowed to 1),■ to say that, as they could not be present, used for the relief of rates, but is being it was not worth holding it. I was rather used for a class of education which is not surprised at the remarks of the hon. mem- provided for out of the rates for children ber for Ramsey about the hon. member for of an age for which grants are not usuall7 Castletown and his motor car. I know that given. For some years past we have in when the hon. member was appointed a this way been able largely to assist in member of the Harbour Board, when we earr,yiug ou big he r education in had our first meeting in Castletown, he the town of Peel. ]. will tell you what very kindly invited the members to Great further I have done. Of course any scheme Meadow to lunch, but the Receiver-L.4/1- which we propose will be subject to the cm], without consulting the other members, approval of the Clothworkers' Company, as took it into his head to refuse. I suppose the premises belong to them. I at once he looked upon it as a sort of bribery. I communicated with the Present secretar don't think that it is right that the Board of the Clothworkers', who is a personal should use his car, because if I was put up friend of mine, and I got a letter back that against him as a member of the Board, the he would bring the matter before the first members would vote for him, though I meeting of the Company. I also took an might be the best for the position, just to opportunity of seeing the Secretary person- get a ride in the hon. member's motor car. ally in London, and he assured me that any (Laughter.) system or plan which was adopted would Mr A. Qualtrough I see by Iast week's he acceptable to them. With regard to the papers that there is a propesal brought for- Grammar School and Mathematical School ward to take the children from school and trusts, they may also be made available for put them on the farms to weed turnips, etc. this purpose. An order of the Chancery In Germany they keep the children at school Court may be necessary, but that need not up to the very last moment that they can cause much delay. That is all I have to do so. 1 should think that it would be the say about that, and I will leave other people duty of the chairman of the department to defend themselves. With regard to the to prevent these children being taken to deaf and blind children, the only satisfac- weed turnips. It is child slavery, and tory way is to send them to an institution. shows the up-to—date methods which Eng- Mr Crennell : That is the only practical land is adopting to fight Germany. I think way of dealing with them.. that the Board ought also to be short of a The Attorney-General: I had some ex- motor car in the future. perience on the School Board of Douglas. Mr Radcliffe; After the speech of the and we found that an attempt to deal wit's lion. member for Rushee, 1 think his best them in the ordinary schools was imprac- coarse would be to go to Germany. He is tical and very costly. I am sorry that the not bound to stay in the Isle of Man. No hon. member did not tell us how many doubt the hon. member for Ramsey takes a teachers had gone to the war, and what great interest in educational matters, but I provision had been made to fill their places do think that a great deal of money has been wasted in connection with higher Mr Cormode: I am rather afraid that the education. There is no doubt. about it; hon. member for Ramsey made it appear know it. 1 was for many years on the that the Western Higher Education Board Andreas School Board, as also was my col- were rather blaming ,the Attorney-General league, ilfr Christian. A great deal of and the Lord Bishop because they had not mater is 'bei ng spent, and 1 don't think made progress. That is not so. I had the anything is beingtained by it. If the money honour of being present at that conference were expended in giving military training referred to by the Attorney-General. I had to our boys of fourteen years old, in masters no right there, but was asked out of going round and preparing the lads for the courtesy as member for the town. I know future defence of the country, we would he how much the deep interest which the doing something in the right direction. We

Public Education. 486 TYNWALD CO-UBT, JUYl' 27, 1916.

have many members who take an interest interest in the question. The feeling at in education, and I do hope that before this that conference was quite unanimous, and, House terminates its career, a new Bill, on indeed, it was because the Lord Bishop and modern lines, will be adopted, and in every the Attorney-General took so keen an in- parish school and every town school every terest that they were felt to be indispens- male child will have a thorough military able. if the hon. member for Peel, or the training, wheu he reaches the age of 14 or hon. member for Ramsey, had not been able 15, so that they will not hereafter require to attend, they would have gone on with such an amount of drilling, but will be pre. the meeting, I take it; but it was felt that pared at any call to defend their country, they could not go on without the Lord Capt. Mouglitin: e'ollowing up the re- Bishop and the Attorney-General. The marks of the hon. member for Ayre, may I Attorney-General, as has been said, went point out that, instead of the Manx peop:e, to a great deal of trouble, and successfully' as a nation, being trained to be a nation of negotiated the matter, up to a point, with soldiers, there is such a thing as the first the Clothworkers' Company, and we hay; line of defence of the British nation, the hopes that he may be able to negotiate still Navy. Naturally, the Manxman takes to further with them, and secure favourable the sea. Ile is practically born in the sea, terms and conditions. My remarks were with the salt air in his lungs, and would it somewhat jocular, perhaps, but the fact not be a great deal better, instead of train- simply is that both the Attorney-General ing the boys to handte a rifle, to give them and the Lord Bishop are busy men, and some training in elementary seamanship? was found impossible, in the few attempts Instead of them being greenhorns, as they that were made, to get a day that would are at present, let them be instructed in the suit them both, and it was necessary that principles of navigation. Surely, Manx- they should both he there. The Attorney- men's natural home is the sea. They work General asked if I could give information as on the sea; that is where the bulk of them to the number of teachers that have gone are at the present moment. And even ; to the war. 1 think that about twelve civil life, a knowledge of elementary sea- aitogether have gone. Many of the male manship would be a very great help to teachers in the Isle of Man are above mili- them. The hon. member's ploughboy tary age, and others have been refused Per- would not be any the worse for being able mission by R.M. Inspector, acting on be- to splice a ploughline. We had a case in half of the Board of Education. He Liverpool recently of a fire in a hotel, where needed to be satisfied that steps were being they knotted sonic sheets together, to make taken to supply their places adequately. a rope with which to let people down from to one case, at least, a very capable woman the windows, and several of the knots gave teacher was obtained to take the place of way, and went through the windows. a. man who has left. The other eases don't, suppose any member of this Court are largely from Douglas, and 1 have could knot a rope together, to save his life. no doubt that the Douglas School Board It is ridiculous that we should pay a big have made !sufficient arrangements to carry price to teach boys to drive a nail, and that. them over for the present. The bon. mem- the very thing they depend upon for their- ber for Bushell has asked as to the condi- livelihood is neglected. And now, to turn tions on 'which children can be employed in the boys into soldiers instead of sailors 'a agricultural work. A good many years against my ideas of what is wise. ago. in 1878, and again in 1.897, the Council Mr Radcliffe: We could have the two. of Education issued regulations with regard to the employment of children on the land. Capt. Moughtin: Let us have the first It is. perhaps, well that this should be first. known. Ml the School Boards have been The Deputy-Governor: The Senior Ser- notified in recent years that there is a vice. (Laughter). regulation stating that a child of between Mr Grennell (replying): First of all, 1 the ages of ten and fourteen shall not be re- would like to make it absolutely clear that quired to attend school for a period or I don't wish to cast the smallest possible re- periods not exceeding five weeks in all, in flection upon either the Lord Bishop or the any one school year, if such child is during Attorney-General, in my remarks as to the such period or periods employed in the pur- inability to get a conference together. poses of husbandry-, or in gathering in the What the hon. member for Peel has said k crops, has been presented in the fourth perfectly true. The Lord Bishop and the standard at the annual inspection, and is, Attorney-General took the keenest possible in the opinion of the School Board, such

Public Education. TYICW4T..D COURT, JIINE 27, 1916. 437 opinion being formed from an inspection met during the adjournment, and came to of the registers of the school, likely to make the conclusion that the prayer of the peti- 40t) attendances during the school year. Se tion should be granted. There is not time there is room for the employment of to prepare a formal report. The petition children of that age, tinder certain condi- is just to enable the Douglas Corporation tions, in helping in agricultural work, It to re-borrow, in cases where some short is the wish of the Board of Education in loans have been called in, for the same London, and of the Government in London, purposes the original loan was granted that all land shall he kept in the highest for. The terms sadconditions of the loans possible state of cultivation, and it is under require the sanction of this Court, and of the present stress of circumstances desir- course they cannot vary the terms without able that advantage should lie taken , of the sanction of the Court. Owing to the child labour so far as it reasonably can he rise in the rate of interest, they ask for taken the leave of the Court to re-borrow and Mr A. Qua!trough: What about Ger- pay interest at a rate not exceeding 4f per many? (Laughter). cent. That is the rate at which they can - Mr Crennell: I don't know what they are now borrow money. I move that the re- doing in Germany, I am sure. p-ort of the committee be adopted, and the Mr A. Qualtrough: They are keeping prayer of the petition granted. their children in school, so that they can Agreed. battle with the changed conditions. Mr Crennell: During the war? I some- GOVERNMENT PROPERTY. what doubt it. But the hon. member's in- The Receiver-General moved— formation may he more direct. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Mr A. Qualtrough: It said so in the authorized to apply from the current revenue "Daily News'' last week. of this Island a sum not exceeding £587 for the purpose of defraying, during the year ending Mr Crennell: The hon. member for Ayre, 31et March, 1917, the expenses of the Govern- Mr Radehire, thinks ,v should move on ment Property Trustees. modern lines. It seems to me that his lines are German lines, very largely. I didn't Continuing, the Receiver-General said know he was an admirer of Germany. His You will sae the estimate of this expendi- one idea is that we should turn. everyone ture on page 22 of the Financial Statement. into a soldier. That has been the curse of Last year the estimate was £757, and the Germany, and of Europe, and he wants us actual expenditure was £544 7s. This year to perpetuate the state of things which we we have brought down the estimate to £587. all hop) will come to an end with this war. The Government Property Trustees, in I was interested to hear the opinion of the their report, say that they have had under hon, member for Peel with regard to the consichration the estimates for the main- invitation extended by the hon. and gallant tenance and repair of public buildings for member for Costletown, Col. Moore. the year ending March 31st, 1917, amount- (Laughter.) f am somewhat surprised at ing to £372, which estimates have been sub- mitted to them by the Treasurer of the Isle. the view taken by the Harbour Board. All These estimates clre £120 less than those I can say is that I don't think the Council for the previous year, all expenditure hav- of Education is so diffident, and unless the ing been cut down to a minimum, in view hon, member wishes us to accept his, invita- of the necessity for this course owing to tion, he had better not extend it. (Laugh- ter.) I don't think he can count on its the war. They are satisfied that all the being refused. T don't think there is any- work specified should be executed, and they thing else that I need say, with regard to wish to again emphasise the fact that the the questions that have been raised in the reduction must be regarded as a war pro- cedure, and cannot be maintained. We tli.scussion, have now out things down to the utmost The motion was carried. limit, and if the war continues for another year, as we all hope it may not, I hardly DOUGLAS CORPORATION LOANS. think that we can maintain the estimates The neat item on the agenda was as at so low a sum. follows:— Air Kerruish seconded, Corporation of Dougiaa—Petition to vary the conditions as to rate of interest on which Mr A. Qualtrough: I should like to know various loans have been authorised. how it is that there are reductions in all The Attorney-General: The Committee cilior items in this statement, but with

Douglas Corporation Loans. —Government Property. 488 'INWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. respect to Government Rouse, the Trustees authorised to apply from the current revenue have over-spent what was estimated last of thislgend is sum not exceeding £562 for the year ? Why is it that no :economy has been Purpose of defraying, during the year ending 31st March, 1917, the salaries of the Public exercised there? Analyst and of the Inspector under the Weights The Reeeiver-General: When the hon. and Measures Acts, and the expenses incidental member sees that our estimates for the to carrying out the provisions of the Adulter- coming 1-ear include a sum of only £.24 on ation Acts, Weights and Measures Acts, and a building like Government House, he must Water Companies Regulation Act, including the laboratory expenses of the Public Analyst. see that economy has been exercised. It is date to Lady Raglan, to say that she met The Attorney-Getheral: 1 understand the committee in the fullest possible way, there is no alteration. and said at once that if other expenditure Capt. Monghtin seconded. was being cut down during the war, all Mr Crennell There urn a few things that work at Government House that could be strike no as remarkable in this vote. The avoided ought to be out down. (Hear, first item, the L,alary of the Public Analyst, hear.) quite contrary to die usual procedure, in Mr A. Qualtrough: Have ire to pay rent, my experience, is going down, instead of of a hoes;; in England for this Excellency going up. Last year it was £374; this year nt the present moment? (Laughter) it is £337. The Receiver-General: No. The Deputy-Governor: That is paid in Mr A. Qualtrough: Where did that £40 a different manner; that accounts for the come from that I asked about last year? difference. It is paid monthly, instead of When that convenient &re occurred at Gov- quarterly. ernment Id ouse--('`Oh was paid Mr Crennell: I was quite distressed to for rent. I never got a right answer to think that a, public servant should be pro• that question. ceeding in the wrong direction. (Laughter.) The Receiver-General: That was last It is quite contrary to exparience. The year. There was an explanation for it at other point is, How aloes it come about the time. that the Chief Inspector of Weights and The Attorney-General: We cannot „o Measures. in the :isle of Man gets his salary back on that. paid from the Cantil? :His whole salary Mr A. Qualtrougli: Oh., I didn't expect was refunded last year from the Camp it. fundis. That was a remarkable thing, I thought. The motion was carried. The Deputy-Governor: Thero is another CWII, REGISTRA TION. way of paying it. it is not paid, really. DuctiHter Callow moved— He is getting his salary from the Camp funds, and this salary is being waived. It That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorized to apply from the current revenue is included in the aecounts in this fashion of this Island a sum not exceeding £368 for to make it right with the War Office. the purpose of providing (1) remuneration for Mr Crennell: Does the Inspector of one year from 1st. January, 1916, to the Registrars of Douglas, Ramsey, and Poel, and Weights and Measures in the Isle of Mast, the Registrars of sub-districts, under the whose duty is to go about and inspect Civil Registration Acts—to the Registrar at weights and measures, spend his time at Douglas, £95, to the Registrars ati Ramsey the Camp? and Peel, at the rate of £25 each ; and to the The Deputy-Governor: Col. Madoe is tho Registrars of suirdisitricts a sum not exceed- ing £73 in the aggregates: such payments to be ordinary officer, and he is now engaged at subject to tho approval of His Excellency the the Camp. Governor—{2) incidental expenses (rents of Mr Crennell: Then is the work not done? Civil Reghrtrare offices, etc.) in connection with civil registration. The Deputy-Governor: It is clone by His Honour added: This is the ordinary Supt. Quilliam, or, really, I believe, by sum that is voted each year. Inspector Duke. I think myself that there should be something for the officer who does Mr Kerruisli seconded. the motion; which this work. was carried. Mr'7_,reinnell: It looks as though we were getting the services of the Inspector for ADULTERATION ACTS. Weights and Measures; and the Camp was The Attorney-General moved— paying the salary. The so Me remark ap- That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be plies to the inspector under the Dangerous

Civil Registration.—Adulteration Acts. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. 489

Goods Act, who is mentioned in the next the expenses connected with detention quarters v(•te on b110 aigcnaa• for children, under the Children Act. 1910. The Deputy-Governor : It does look like Continuing, tie Attorney-General said: that, at first blush. This is the same exactly as last year. We The motion was carried. all know what it is for. Children have to be detained, and you will have to provide Places for them, and the parents are dealt DANGEROUS GOODS ACT. with under the Act. Tile Attorney-General moved- Mr Kerruish seconded the motion, and it rhat the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be was carried. authorised to apply from the current revenue •.1 this Island a sum not exceeding £41, for PROBATION OF OFFENDERS. the purpose of defraying, during the year end- ing 3151 March, 1917, the salaries and incidental The Attorney-Genca•al moved— expenses of the inspectors appointed under the That the Treaeurcr of the Isle of Man be Dangerous Goods Act. authorized to apply from the current revenue of this island a sum not exceeding £70 to The Attorney-General: The same point defray during the year ending Mat March, 1917, arises, did the hon. member say? It is the the expenses to be incurred under the Pro- same inopector. bation of Offenders Act, 1913. Agreed. Mr Kerruish se::osided the motion; and it as carried.: VACCINATION ACT: P.RIN LING AND ADVERTISING. Decinster Callow moved— Mr Canine moved— That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorized to apply from the current revenue authorized to apply of this Island, a. sum not exceeding £90 for the from the current revenue purpose of defraying, during the year ending of this Island a sum not exceeding £800 for 31st March, 1917, the following charges:— the purpose of defraying, during the year end- ing 31st March, 1917, the following charges:— Fece of Public Vaccinators £79 19 0 (1) Printing the Debates of the Incidental expenses under the Insular Legislature £300 0 9 vaccination Act (rent of vac- (2) Printing official publications cination stations, etc.) 10 1 0 and advertising 500 0 G

£90 0 0 £800 0 His Honour added : This is merely the sal- Capt. Moughtin : .1 second that, but 1 aries, and a. liominal sum for general ex- don't think the work is worth the money. penses. (La tighter .) Capt. Moughtin smanded. A.groed. Mr Crennell: I notice the sum is £20 more than last year. LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD. The Deputy-tovernor : There were some, 'Inc Attorney-General moved— outstanding account, from last year. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Mr A. Qualtroug:i : Am I to understand authorized to apply from the current revenue of this Island a sum not exceeding £584 for that the police are still paid for enforcing the purpose of defraying, during the year end- this Ant? ing 31st March, 1917, the expenses of the Local Deemster Callow It is simply the fees Government Board. for the public vaccinators. There is no Mr A. Christian seconded bite motion, charge for the police. and it was carried. ;Ur A. Qualtrouigh: Well, I object to it. (Laughter.) MURR A Y HOUSE. The motion was carried, Mr A. Qual- Mr Crennell moved— trough voting "No," That the Treasurer of the isle of Man be authorized to apply from the current revenue of this island during the year ending Met THE CHILDREN ACT. March, 1917, a sum not exceeding £110 for the The• Attorney-General moved:— purpose of defraying the salary of the care- taker and incidental expenses in connection That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorized to apply from the current revenue with Murray House. of this Island a eum not exceeding £96 to Mr Kerruish. seconded the motion, and it defray, during the year ending 31st March, 1917, was carried.

Dangerous Goods Act,—Vaccination Act.—The Children, Act.—Probation of Offenders. ' Printing and Advertising.--Local Government Board.—Murray House. 490 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1.916.

INQUESTS OF DEATH. men. Still. the Manx fishermen are as The. Attorney-General moved— much entitled to fish in their own waters That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be as the rest. There seems to be no way of authorized to apply from the current revenue enforcing the penalty against the others, of this Island a sum not exceeding 250, for the but if a Manxman does it, he is fined at Purpose of defraying, during the year ending once. There a-as a kind of half-promise 31st March, 1917, the expenses connected with the holding of inquests of death. that the thing should be considered, and, Col. Moore seconded the motion, and it if necessary, abolished. , was carried. Deemster Callow : it could not be abol- ished by refusing to pass this resolution. PORT ERIN FISH HATCHERY. It would have to be abolished by with- drawing the resolution declaring the three Deemster Callow moved— mile limit it close ground for fishing. That the Treasurer of the tale of Mari ho authorized to apply from the current revenue The Attorney-General: If you find a of this Island a Sum not exceeding £230 for the Manxman at it, you get the Manxman, be- purpose of defraying, during the year ending cause he is here. But, a person who conies 31st, March, 1917, the expenses connected with from elsewhere goes into our waters, and the fish hatchery, Port Erin, fishes, and goes home again, and you can- His Honour continued: There is a alight not go after him. A correspondence was increase from last year, but that is due to entered into some years ago on this very two causes. First, the gas engine, which point, whether or not this could be re- has been *ere for, many years, required to garded as an offence within that class of be overhauled and repaired. Second, we cases where n warrant could be issued, haven't received any money from visitors whether it could be made a real criminal this year, whereas in the previous year we offence, as distinct from an offence pun- received £100. We have cut down all ex. ishable on summary jurisdiction. But penes. they refused to do it. And that is where Mr Radcliffe seconded the motion, and it the real difficulty is. Is it not so? was carried. Deemster Callow: Yes. FISHERIES BOARD EXPENSES. The Attorney-General: You may lay down any law you like, but if you cannot Deemster Callow moved : - enforce it, it is quite useless to you. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorized to apply from the current revenue Capt.. Moughtin : That is no reason for of this island a sum not exceeding £15, for the fining the Manxinen. if you cannot fine purpose of defraying, during the year ending the Englishmen, too. 31st Match. 1917, the expenses to be incurred by the Fisheries Board under the Fisheries Act, The Attorney-General: Abolish the law, 1874, including payment of fishery officers and then. I never had any faith at all in this other expenses, as required by the Fisheries legislation with regard to fisheries. I Authorities Amalgamation Act, 1904. believe it is founded on a wrong pre- His Honour added: This is simply the sumption altogether. , actual fees paid to the three watchers. . Demister Callow : The wiry to cause the They are engaged permanently. We are abolition of this law is to abolish the bye- not asking for any other expenses what- law made prescribing the three-mile limit ever, as a. close ground. But these men have • Col. Moore seconded. been engaged, and they would have to Capt. Moughtin: On a former debate have notice. on this vote, the fact was pointed out that, Capt. Moughtin : Can we have a pro- while Manx fishermen were prevented mise from his Honour the Deemster that front fishing within the three-mile limit, steps will be taken to stop this prosecu- and could be prosecuted for doing so, peo- tion of the Manxman? ple from the other side of the water came The Receiver-General: Have the bye- in and did what they liked. Cannot we law abolished. have the three-mile limit abolished, at any Mr Radcliffe: My impression differs rate for the duration of the war? It from that of the hon. member for South seems extraordinary that we should pay Douglas. It is not the strangers that do 415 for keeping a nice close fishing this damage, but the boats coming from ground for alien fishermen. I use the Douglas. (Loud laughter.) I know it to word " alien," but they are British fisher- be so. They wait till the evening, and as

Inquests of Deaths.—Port Erin Fish Hatchery.—Fisheries Board Expenses. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1916. 491

soon as night comes, they are within the The Attorney-General: That arises on three-mile limit. the next roti:. Capt. Moughtin: As a matter of fact, The motion was carried. we hare no steam fishing boat in Douglas. Mr Radcliffe: There are Douglas vessels MAINTENANCE OF CHILDREN IN of some sort. REFORMATORIES. The motion was carried. The Attorney-General moved : - That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be CIVIL REGISTRATION authorized to apply from the current revenue (MARRIAGES). of this Island a SUM not exceeding £650, for the Deemster Callow moved : - purpose of defraying, during the year ending That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be 31st March, 1917, the oost of maintaining authorized to apply from the current revenue children committed to Reformatories and In- of this Island, a sum not exceeding £10, for dustrial Schools, exclusive of children for the purpose. of defraying, during the year end. whose maintenance provision is made in the ing 31st March, 1917, the fees payable under estimate for Public Education. section 9 of the Oivil Registration (Marriages: Continuing, the Attorney-General said: Act.,, 1907. This is voted year by year. Certain Mr Walton seconded the motion, and it children of certain ages have to be sent was carried. away, and their imprisonment has to be paid for. This charge has been increased RATES ON CROWN PROPERTY. lately by the institution in which the The Attorney-General moved: children arc placed, raising its price from That tho Treasurer of the Isle of Man be 8s Gd to lOs 6+.1 per week, owing to the rise authorized to apply from the current revenue in the cast of living. of this Island a sum not exceeding £400 for the Mr Crennell seconded the motion, and purpose of defraying, during the year ending 31st March, 1917, the contributions in lieu of it was carried, rates and taxes in respect of property in the occupation of the Crown. MUSEUM AND ANCIENT Mr Crennell seconded the motion, and MONUMENTS TRUSTEES, it was carried. Deetuster Callow moved:— That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be MAINTENANCE OF CRIMINAL authorized to apply from the current revenue LUNATICS. of this Island, during the year ending 31st The Attorney-General moved:— March, 1917, a sum not exceeding £25 for the That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man he purpose of defraying the expenses incurred, or authorized to apply from the current revenue to be incurred, by the Trustees under the of this Island a sum not exceeding £100 for the Museum and Ancient Monuments Act, 1886. purpose of defraying, during the year ending Mr Radcliffe seconded the motion, and 31st March, 1917, the expenses of the mainten- it was curried. allot) of criminal lunatics. Mr Crennell: That is an estimate only, MISCELLANEOUS CHARGES. I presume. 1 notice it is three times as The Receiver-General moved:— much as was spent last year. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Mr A. Qualtrough: Would it be con- authorized to apply from the current revenue venient for us to get to know a little of this Island a sum not exceeding £100 for the about this before voting upon it purpose of defraying, during the year ending The Attorney-General: It is always 31st March, 1917, charges of a miscellaneous character connected with the Government of voted from year to year. If these people this :wand, were ordinary pauper lunatics, they would have to be supported out of the rates. Mr Cormode seconded. But because they are . criminals, whose Mr A. Qualtrough: 1Vhat are these maintenance in prison wwould have to be charges for? paid for by the Crown, if they have to he The Receiver-General : You will find transferred to the Asylum, the Crown them on page 24. pays for them, instead of the charge being The Deputy-Governor: They include thrown upon the rates. rent of telephone, sweeping the chimneys, Mr A. Qualtrough: .1 mean with regard and so on, to the children. Mr A. Qualtrough: Is this where the

Civil Registration (Marriages.)—Rates on Crown Property.—Maintenance of Criminal lillantics.—Maintenance of Children in Reformatories.—Museum and Ancient Monuments Trustees.—Miscellaneous Charges. 492 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 191.6. police are paid for enforcing the Vaeci- The vote as increased was agreed to. nation Act. (Laughter.) I am told that this is where the money comes from, as it ST. MARY'S GOVERNMENT CHAPEL. is not otherwise provided. Col. Moore moved— 'Re Receiver-General: No, that is not That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be so. It includes the chimney sweeping, authorized to apply from the current revenue but nothing for the police. of this Island, during the year ending 31st Mr A. Qualtrough: I will vote against March, 1917, a sum not exceeding £35, to defray it at any rate, the Government proportion of the expenses in connection with St. Mary's Chapel, Castletown, The vote was carried. incurred during the year ended Easter, 1916. Col. Moore added: The amount is the HOME FOR THE POOR, same as last year. I know that the The Speaker moved:— Attorney-Gereral has some information That a grant of £250 be made from the on the matter, which he will give to the current revenue of this Island, during the Court if requested. year ending March, f917, in aid of the funds for the Home for the Poor. The Attorney-General : I will second the The Speaker added : This is the usual motion. On the last occasion when this annual grant, which has been made every was on the hon. member for Ramsey year since the Home was started. raised some question as to whether we should nay this money. Mr Kitto seconded, and it was agreed to. Mr Crennell: No; not me. The Attorney-General: Some member PLANTING. raised the question as to why this money Mr Kitto moved:— was paid, and I said that it was raid in (pursuance_ ei an agreement come to many That a sum not exceeding £1015 be applied from the general revenue of this Island, during years ego. 2nnre than. 100 years ago. the year ending 31st March, 1917, towards en- nether that aereement was ever reduced couraging the planting of trees in the Island, to writing I cannot ascertain, but there :s such grant to be expended under the direction ample evidetr.o to prove that it existed, of the committee of the Tynwald Court on In a case brought by the Crown in 1868 tree planting appointed on the 7th June, 19115. thicre is the most clear evidence that the Mr Radcliffe seconded. agreement existed. It was a case brought Mr ermine: 1 think it would be advis- by my predecessor, Sir James Gell, against able if this amount was increased, as the Elizabeth Cain, in the Court of Exchequer; amount of timber that has been cut re- as at that time a numbs of persons were cently is very considerable. It would be making claims to pews. The Crown's claim advisable if one could re-plant wherever in that ease is conclusive .evideinee against possible, and I hope that after the war t,:em now that an agreement existed. in this vote will be largely increased. their statement of claim the Crown say— Mr Radcliffe: A Bill will be introduced "That, at a Vestry meeting in 1808, it ap- next session providing that where a tree pears that the Governor, on behalf of the has been cut down, the person who cuts Crowe and the pew-holders, agreed that the Crown share of the expenses of the chapel it shall be compelled to plant three in its should be one-third, the pew-holders paying place. There are parties who are taking the other two-thirds. That. subsequently, the the matter up, and a Bill will he pro- Government share appears to have been paid, vided. .f. believe that the value of the and from that time until the present, the timber that has recently been exported agreement so made has been considered and acted on as a kind of compact between the from the island is equal to the value of Grown and the pew-holders; and from that the grain exported. date down to the last few years no dispute has Capt. INIoughtin: Would it be in order a risen. to move an increase for this year? it is That (continued the Attorney-General) is a matter of great importance, and I move a clear admission, on behalf of the Govern- as an amendment that the vote be ment. that they are responsible, end were instead of £100. so as far hack as 1808. The Crown, in that The Deputy-Governor : £120 was the claim. admit their liability, and, to my amount reamonended by the Committee, min./l , on the face of that there can be U') as they only wish to keep the plantations question as to liability. clean. If the Court wish, I will make it Mr Cranial: My part in the discussion £120, instead of £100. that took place last year was very small.

Home for the Poor.—Tree Planting. —St. Mary's Government Chapel. TYNWALD COT W', JUNE 27. 1916. 493 • The Attoreey-General : It must hove been :Beard, bet they have nothing to do with lliaro powerful than the other members it.; they are worked entirely by the Govern- then. ment. lar Grennell Whet ]tappered was that Mr Radcliffe. ] seeend lire motion. There the him. meddler for :Rushee, Alr Joseph is also a lair at Ramsey now which will add Qualtrough, raised certain questions, and to the expense. It is for calves. then the lion. member for Peel, the hon. i he vot.e was carried. member for Glieniaba, and the Archdeacon took part in the discussion, My point. was THE LABOUR EXCHANGE. that we were cliseu.ssing the matter in the Mr Cormode moved :- dark, and if there was an agreement as to That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be this payment it ought to be printed and authorized to apply from the current revenue circulated among the members, and the of this Inland during the year ending 31st ,\ttorney-Genera] enclertiiok to look into March, 1917, a sum not exceeding £170 on the the matter. For my part, I am now quite ma.intenanoc of the Tabour Exchange. satisfied, and am quite prepared to sup- Continuing, Mr Cormode said: I hope port the vete peeding the decision of the that 1 will be allowed a few moments to G6vernment as to the chaplaincy question. give a few facts with regard to this in- Mr Radcliffe: I am going to support the stitution. It is quite a new institution motion, but T am surprised that the hen. as far as the isle of Man is concerned, member for Castletown should move such but it has proved very valuable since a motion. Castletown claims to be the it has been under its present manage- borne of the aristeeracy of the Island, and ment and has been housed in its new claims a greet deal of the wealth of the quarters, the Douglas Free Library. Dur- Leland., and yet here is a wealthy gentle- ing the eleven weeks it has been open, loan of that Nvealthy constituency moving there have been 534 registrations, the that the Government pay for their minis- vacancies notified have been 381, and the ter. I have no objection so far as St. vacancies filled have numbered 349. John's is concerned, for there the Chaplain (Hear, hear.) I may say, also, that most has Government work to do, but in Castle- of the vacancies have been filled satis- town the chaplain has nothing to do for the factorily, as the manager of the Exchange Government, end. yet here is the hon. mem- goes to endless pains to find the right ber for Castlotown asking that the Crewe person to fill the vacancy. I have been should pay his stipend. I am going to vote present, and have heard the manager for it., but I ale surmised at the hon. mom- interview applicants, and f have been her for Castletown. (Laughter.) filled with the greatest admiration for the CM Moore: The hon. member for Ayre painstaking manner in which the manager has evidently not read his agenda. The tries to find out all the facts. One very resolution is as to the Government propor- importance difference in the work under tion of the umietenanee of the building, the preseet management and the former and has nothing to do with the chaplain'e management is, that under the old stipend. management, the overwhelming majority The motion wes agreed to. of the vacancies filled were across the water, The totals for six months were:— GOVERNMENT LAIRS. Total vacancies filled, 682; only 73 of these were filled in the Isle of Man and Mr A. Christian moved-- 1109 in England. During the eleven weeks That the Treasurer of the Isle of Nan be authorized to apply from the current revenue. that the Exchange has been worked by Mr of this Island a. sum not exceeding £470 for the Cubbon, 340 vacancies have been filled, purpose of defraying, during the year ending 271 of these in the Isle of Man and 69 in 31st lviarch, 1917, the expenses connected with England. I have no doubt the difference the maintenance of Government lairs and with the inopcction of animals, in the results has been due to a deliberate difference in the policy, and I, for one. Mr Christian added: 1 believe that the approve of the present. policy, as opposed vote is for .E20 more than last year, but to the former one, as I do not wish to see lest year very few cattle were imported---4 the 'Island depleted of its population, or think thee,- were down 500 head, and we our industries starved for want of labour. expect them to be bigger next year. Some- know that Mr Cubbon is most anxious thing was said this morning about the lairs to render what assistance ha can to being worked by the Local Government farmers, who, under recent regulations,

Government Lairs.— The Labour Exchange. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27, 1910. can obtain the release of any of their lab. the Douglas Corparation for the work, but. curers under training for a fortnight or a understand, the Library Committee collar month for the purpose of working in the the lot. (Shame). question very nell-lt harvest. Already an application for one whether this is a falr arrangement, a young man who, in the opinion of the labourer is worthy of his hire. That is not young man whom, in the opinion of the the question before the Court ; if it was Local Tribunal, should hare received ex- would argue that the arrangement is not emption, but whom the majority of the a fail' ww. I hope that the Government Appeal Tribunal decided must go. He will consider the matter. I am sure that has obtained leave. It is necessary that if you bunt the whole Isla11t1 you will not all applications for men should be made at find a better 111a II, and a man more qualified least four weeks before they are required, to do the work than Mr Cuhboo. I have as the inquiries take time. The manager pteastire in seconding this vote. of the Exchange, as a rrsu1t of his ex- Mr Kermode seconded. perience, and impressed with the scarcity Capt. Moughtin It is only fair to point of agricultural labour, has evolved a out that Mr Cubbon is a borough official, scheme which the hon. member for Rue- and is pad a higher salary than has ever hen. Mr A. Qualtrough, has described as been paid before for doing the librarian's child slavery. The scheme is that a num- work, and that he leas three assistants to ber of the elder boys in the Douglas schools should get their holidays earlier assist him in doing it, than usual, and go out on the farms. The Deputy-Governor : When the English They would have their train fares paid, author ties suggested that the Labour Ex- and their board, and the idea is that they change at the Sefton should be closed, I could be employed to thin turnips, Why considered that it was a matter that should on earth the hon. member, with his know- be continued, and that the Douglas Corpor- ledge of the conditions Mint obtain in the ation were the best authority to take it up. country, should call that child slavery I am The Douglas Corporation at once fell in at a loss to understand. I have thinned with the idea., and has carried it out. From thousands of yards of turnips before I Iva.: what I have seen, I should think that Mr eleven years of age, and it never did me Cubbon is a most valuable public servant, any harm. From an educational point of and is doing most valuable work. As to the view the work will be good, because educa- salary, that it a point upon which the Gov- tion consists of more things than doing ernment Office cannot express any opinion sums and writing, and this will educate as between the Corporation and their the children in the broader sense. I hope employees. We feel satisfied that, in pro- that the farmers will apply for these lads, posing this grant, we are carrying out the and that a large number will undertake wishes of the people in carrying on a most the work. The suggestion is that they will valuable institution, doing most valuable only get their board and train fare, but I work. do not know a farmer in the Island who will let the lads go home-without a few shillings The vote was carried. if they work well. On the other point, as --- — to the release of soldiers, farmers most not HOUSE OF KEYS' ELECTION forget that they must apply three or four EXPENSES. weeks before the men are, needed, The work Deemster Callow moved— has to be done on the farms, and That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be I am quite sure that it cannot he done with- authorized to apply from the current revenue out help. There is another point. Thi.: of this Island a 611M not exceeding £50 for the purpose of defraying, during the year ending Exchange is worked at very touch less rest 31st March, 1917, election and revising ex- than any other Exchange in the world or in pellees. the :United Kingdom. The very lowest Capt, Moughtin seconded, and it was salary paid to the manager of an Exchange tarried. in the 'United Kingdom is £170, and it rises to £800. and here the whole vote is EDUCATION : ATTENDANCE ENFORCE- 120. The reason it is done so cheap here is that the manager of the Exchange gets MENT OFFICERS' SALARIES, none of the money. He puts in seven Mr Crennell moved— hours a day at this work, and his library Whereas, by section 6, sub-oection 12, of the. work has to be done in the evening. The Fduoation Act, 1883, it is enacted that the Government made an allowance of £50 to Council of Education may appoint officers

House of Keys Election Expenses.—Education : Attendance Enforcing-Officers' salaries. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 27 ,1910. 495 enforce the attendance of children at school, bunal taking away the only blacksmith in onc-balf of the expenses incurred in connection the ne'ghbourhood_ therewith being paid out of the moneys to be provided by Tynwald, and the other half to be The Deputy-Governor : The matter is one a charge on the school fund of the school dis- Si which MI's Court cannot interfere. The trict to which such officer may be assigned, and 11: n tte r migh t. be referred to the hon. meal- to be paid by the school board thereof, the ap- proval of the Tynwald Court being necessary to her for Peel. the fixing of the amount of salary payable to Mr Ker mode 'Phe hon. member is a mein- such officer: her of the Tribunal that sent the man. And, whereas, by a minute dated the 77th The Deputy-Governor: The matter is ono March, 1916. the Council of Education resolved that, subject to the approval of this Court, the for the Tribunal, and I do not. think that salaries of Mr Thomas Taggart, Mr William this Court or the Government can interfere Dodd, and Mr Alfred J. Cormode, Attendance in any way, Enforcing Off'cot's, be increased from £57 to £60 a year, and the salary of Mr R. Kewicy, At- Mr Cormode: The hon, member pussel tendance Enforcing Officer. from £44 to £47 a the queshion to me to put to the Chairtnah yew., such increases to take effect from the let of the Tribunal, but I suggested that ne day of April, 1916. of the memliers for Glenfaha, in which the Resolved--That this Court do approve of such Braaid is situated, should put the question, ;accessed salaries. That is my share in the matter. Mr Crennell added : It is that tilt salaries Capt. Moughtin: It. is a shame that men of four of the attendanee officers he in- should have to remain at the front year creased by £3 a year. after year without relief, and let these Col. Moore seconded, and it was carried. other men stay at home. The Deputy-Governor; That concludes The Deputy-Governor: It is a matter in the agenda. which we cannot interfere. Mr Kermode: According to a Government APPEAL TRIBUNAL AND THE report we are short 2,000 men on the farms BRA A ID BLACKSMITH. of the Isle of Man. Mr Kermode: I wish to draw attention to This was all the business, and the Court the hardship inflicted on farmers in the adjourned to Wednesday, July 5th, at St, ne.glihourhood of the Braaid by the Tri- John's, at 11-15.

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Appeal Tribunal and the Braaid Blacksmith.