Tuesday Volume 674 24 March 2020 No. 46

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 24 March 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 187 24 MARCH 2020 188

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister House of Commons and the Department for all they are doing for businesses at this time; it is much appreciated. Will the Minister Tuesday 24 March 2020 further outline whether he has managed to close the loophole that enables massive companies such as Amazon The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock to operate out of the UK yet pay little tax here? If not, what has been done to ensure that no one is exempt PRAYERS from paying appropriate tax in the UK if they trade in the UK?

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Jesse Norman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. He will be aware that, in the Budget, we left in place our digital services tax, which is specifically designed Oral Answers to Questions to look at online marketplaces and other areas online that have user-generated content that needs to be appropriately taxed. We continue to pursue that tax. TREASURY Local Transport Infrastructure The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— Taxation of Online Sales 3. Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): What fiscal steps he is taking to improve local transport infrastructure. 2. Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): What steps [901718] he is taking to review the taxation of online sales to support the high street. [901715] 4. Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): What fiscal The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): steps he is taking to improve local transport infrastructure. A change to the taxation of online sales would require [901720] careful consideration, as my hon. Friend is aware. Many high street retailers are moving more of their business The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): The online, and we want to help them to manage that Governmentarecommittedtoimprovingthevitaltransport transition, without increasing the costs for them or their links that people rely on every day. That is why in the customers. The business rates review that we have Budget we announced a £500 million a year fund for announced will work closely with stakeholders to consider potholes, confirmed £1 billion for shovel-ready local this issue in more detail. Meanwhile, as my hon. Friend transport schemes through the transforming cities fund, will be aware, the Government have taken significant and set out the Government’sintention to agree long-term steps to support our high streets, including huge cuts to intra-city transport settlements worth more than £4 billion. business rates and the £3.6 billion towns fund. Damien Moore: I thank my right hon. Friend for all Duncan Baker: Clearly, we are living through that he is doing. Businesses in my resort constituency unprecedented times, and I want to say thank you to all have been delivered a significant blow due to covid-19. the Treasury team for the incredible work they are In good times, funding for the Burscough rail link doing—working throughout the night—to help businesses would be a boost; in bad times, it could be business up and down the country. Many sectors will be hugely critical. Will he work with the Department for Transport impacted by coronavirus, not least my home of North and do everything he can to ensure that we get the Norfolk. We are now seeing shops being shut on the funding for that vital link for our town? high street—quite rightly so—and I just want the Minister to consider that they will be hit enormously. When we Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about come out of this pandemic, a 2% or 3% VAT-style tax the impact on hotel and hospitality businesses in particular. rise to help high streets would be very well considered I hope he welcomes the significant cash grant support and and welcome. Let us just remember that our last great business rates holidays for those businesses. With regard leader was Margaret Thatcher, who said that we are a to his rail line, he is absolutely right about the importance nation of shopkeepers—let us help them. of such links, which is why we set up a £500 million Mr Speaker: Order. I think the hon. Gentleman Beeching cuts reversal fund. I know the Department for ought not to take advantage. We are just starting. I Transport would be happy to hear from him. think he has got the message. Antony Higginbotham: Rail links will be essential to Jesse Norman: I speak for all my colleagues in saying revitalising the economy once we exit this very difficult how grateful I am to my hon. Friend for his kind period. In Burnley, we have a fantastic rail link that regards and wishes. Of course, all taxes are taken into connects us into Manchester, but unfortunately, at the account and monitored by the Treasury, and will be minute, the station is not disability friendly. I know subject to consideration at future fiscal events. We are several stations across the country have been given living through very unusual times. I hope my hon. funding to get them disability friendly, and I wonder Friend understands that the high street, which was whether a similar scheme will be announced in the future under pressure years before the current outbreak, is so that Burnley can finally get a bridge over its platforms. something we have supported over a period of time, most recently with a comprehensive package of support. Rishi Sunak: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the He will be aware of the specific measures we have taken work he does championing improved accessibility for to support eligible retail, hospitality and leisure properties. his disabled constituents, which is why in the Budget we 189 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 190 announced £50 million to remodel 12 stations. I spoke landmark job retention scheme guaranteeing 80% of to the Secretary of State for Transport this morning the wages of furloughed workers. We believe that these about Burnley Manchester Road station, and he is measures represent the most comprehensive and generous happy to take a call from my hon. Friend. suite of interventions of any major developed country in the world. Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): Transport infrastructure and, indeed, all infrastructure relies on Mark Pritchard: On behalf of my constituents, I the construction industry, and in particular its workforce. welcome those announcements. The Chancellor, though, Wehave had reports of workers working in close proximity will know that 15% of the UK workforce is self-employed, in construction—indeed, I have seen that myself, including equating to about 5 million people up and down the at transport-related facilities this morning—in some country.According to the Federation of Small Businesses, cases with no hygienic support and no evidence of there are 5,600 in The Wrekin. When will the Government enhanced cleaning. The industry has been described as come forward with plans for the self-employed and a breeding ground for infection. What action is being freelancers, given the immediacy of their need? taken to protect workers in that industry? Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for the question. Rishi Sunak: The hon. Member is absolutely right: we I will be making further announcements about progress must ensure the safety of our workers in their industries. on these measures. It is something that we have been The guidance from the Government last night was clear looking at in intense detail over the past week in the that people should go to work if they cannot work from Treasury. What I can say to him is that we are in home. In common with other countries such as Italy or dialogue with all the key stakeholder groups, including France, construction has remained open, but of course calls that I am having today with several of those bodies. it is right that that is done safely. I know that my right There are genuine practical and principled reasons why hon. Friend the Housing Secretary is in touch with the it is incredibly complicated to design a scheme that is sector and I believe that he has had conversations about analogous to the one that we have for employed workers, guidance in this regard. but he can rest assured that we absolutely understand the situation that many self-employed people face at the Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) moment as a result of what is happening and we are (SNP): My local bus company is one of many, I am determined to find a way to support them. We need to sure,across the country that has had to introduce short-time be confident that that can be done in a way that is working, but it is unsure about the implementation of deliverable and fair to the vast majority of the British the Chancellor’s very welcome wage subsidy. Will the workforce. Treasury top up the wages of those working two or three-day weeks, or does it have to lay off, say, 70% of Scott Mann: On behalf of my residents in North the workforce and rely on the remainder to cover the Cornwall, I thank the Treasury for the support that it rest of the routes, putting themselves at risk for a similar has put in place for employees and employers over the amount of money? Can the Chancellor clear that up for last few days, with this unprecedented series of events. us, please? Like my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), I want to ask about self-employment. Rishi Sunak: We said that we would aim to have the I have a huge number of self-employed people in North scheme up and running by the April payroll. This is a Cornwall. I know that the Treasury is under a huge amount brand new system that has to be designed from scratch. of pressure at this time, but I urge expediency on that so Claims could be backdated from 1 March, which will that we can get a package of measures in place for them, provide significant support to businesses and jobs, and too. in common with all other schemes like this across the world, the scheme applies to furloughed workers in Rishi Sunak: As I said, we are looking at this in proportion to the hours they have worked—but to immense detail and at pace. As has been acknowledged workers who are put on furlough rather than being by many stakeholders in the industry, there are genuine retained in employment. questions about practicality, fairness and delivery of any such support scheme, which is why it requires Covid-19: Support for Businesses careful thought.

5. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): What fiscal John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): We steps he is taking to help businesses affected by the have an urgent question on the self-employed after this, Covid-19 outbreak. [901721] but to add to the comments that have been made so far, there is a sense of urgency about this now. There is no 8. Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): What fiscal Member of this House who has not been contacted by a steps he is taking to support small business owners. constituent who is in quite a distressed state about that. [901727] One of the most effective ways of supporting businesses is to make sure that the whole workforce is supported. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): The There is another group—2 million workers are on zero- Government remain committed to doing what they can hours and there are part-time workers. They are still not to support businesses, our people and public services. In eligible for statutory sick pay and they appear to be the last week, I have announced unprecedented measures excluded as well from the job retention scheme, which is to support business, including over £300 billion of focused on the definition of “employees” while, in law, Government-backed loans, £20 billion of tax cuts and these are referred to and defined as “workers”. I have grants, a VAT deferral worth 1.5% of GDP and a written to the Chancellor about this, so will he make a 191 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 192 statement urgently that sets out how these workers will that are over a year and a half out of date, poses some be protected in the same way as other workers were in very significant challenges in terms of fairness and the announcement on Friday? affordability.

Rishi Sunak: It is not the case that those who are on Richard Thomson: I thank the Chancellor for that zero hours are not eligible for the existing scheme. answer, and our offer to work with him to protect Depending on their status, they would absolutely be incomes remains open. As part of his deliberations on eligible for the job retention scheme. It could be based this and in order to simplify the process of getting the on an average of previous earnings over a period in money to where it needs to go, will he consider using the order to get smoothing, but there is no reason why they tax and welfare system to roll out a universal basic should not be eligible. In fact, any worker who was on a income in these times? PAYE scheme is eligible for the job retention scheme. Rishi Sunak: We are not in favour of a universal basic John McDonnell: That is really helpful. I have welcomed income, although we have strengthened the safety net the statements from the Chancellor to date, and I welcome for the most vulnerable in our society, with more than that as well. I am grateful for the work that he is doing. £7 billion invested into improving our welfare system There was confusion, and many of us had representations for this year, including improvements to universal credit, on that. I would like him to clarify one other point: he employment support allowance and, indeed, the local might have done so earlier and I missed it. Some people housing allowance. Those payments are all available are being asked to work reduced hours in the interests more quickly, more easily and more generously than of the company rather than being furloughed overall, they were before, and I know that will make an enormous and it appears that those people may also be excluded difference to many vulnerable people. from the scheme. There is a lack of clarity on that: again, could the Chancellor confirm whether those Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): I am grateful for the workers will be included in the scheme? If not, can he opportunity to raise an issue that seems unique to my bring forward a fairly urgent reform to the scheme to constituency. The Isles of Scilly sit 28 miles off Land’s enable that to happen? End, and all people and supplies travel via large and small private companies. Those businesses rely on the One other category we have had questions on is those tourist trade in the summer, but that has completely people who have work available but cannot do it because collapsed, and every single one of those businesses is of the shutdown of their childcare arrangements and as liable to collapse if the Government cannot move quickly. a result have childcare responsibilities. Are they are Can the Chancellor look at this issue urgently, because eligible for the furlough support scheme as well? 2,500 people are relying on urgent action from the Treasury to make sure that their transport infrastructure Rishi Sunak: In common with schemes all around the system is sustained and retained? world, the schemes are for furloughed workers. The check is that the company decides to put an employee Rishi Sunak: I am happy to talk to my hon. Friend into a furlough scheme rather than retain them as further about his particular constituency issue, which I employed. That is exactly the same as every other know poses particular challenges. We have committed scheme. It is not possible to design a scheme that deals to providing local authorities—and indeed all Departments with flexible hours, with the result that the state would —with any funding required to support public services, essentially be subsidising the wages of almost the entire including local transport infrastructure in their communities. workforce. It is something that we looked at in detail and, given the time we have available, we went with a Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): On behalf of my scheme that could be delivered and is in common with constituents who will benefit from the measures that the almost every scheme around the world that does exactly Chancellor announced last week, may I sincerely thank the same thing. him for the action that he has taken and for the responsibility that he is carrying? We are all rooting for him to succeed Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): It is vital that we in the task ahead. The challenge, as others have described, work across party lines at this time, and the SNP very is that for those who do not benefit, in particular the much welcomes the Chancellor’s economic package for 5 million self-employed, the anxiety has increased, because firms and workers announced last Friday. Given that they have seen a ship sailing carrying others but not millions of small businesses, freelancers and the self- them. I think they will be reassured that the Chancellor employed are understandably concerned about their has given a clear commitment to do something, but incomes, we welcome the fact that the Chancellor is many are facing a cash-flow crisis right now, so can he considering a response to that and understand that it is say a bit more to reassure them about how quickly he important to get it right, but when does he expect to be can implement the measures that he is considering? able to come back to the House and announce the details? Rishi Sunak: 1 am very grateful to the hon. Member Rishi Sunak: As I said, we are looking at these things. for his warm words; I appreciate them. We are looking I will not commit to a specific day until we know we can at pace at what support can be provided. The fact is that work through the details. One of the issues is that of the universe of 5 million that we are dealing with course there are people whose incomes have been contains such a wide variety of different people that we enormously impacted by what is going on currently, but are unable to target support. That is the challenge in there are also millions of people who are self-employed designing something that gets to the people who we whose incomes may not have been impacted and, indeed, want to help, while at the same time being affordable and might be increasing. The ability of the Government to not having to benefit absolutely everybody.That is proving distinguish between those people, based on tax returns to be problematic, but we are hard at work on it. 193 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 194

In terms of delivery, it is almost certainly going to be of supporting individuals’ living standards and freeing the case that we would have to build another brand-new up space in the housing market. It also reduces and system to deliver any support. I am sure that hon. simplifies the tax administrative burden for those affected Members on both sides of the House would agree that, and has taken some taxpayers out of self-assessment in terms of prioritising system design, the scheme that entirely. we have set up for 90% of the workforce who are employed should be delivered first and quickly, and that Andrew Lewer: Given that some 37% of homes in the is what we have committed to do, ideally by the end of country are under-occupied, my right hon. Friend will April. We are looking at how we can do these things in realise that encouraging more owners to take in lodgers sequence or in parallel, but I take the hon. Member’s could provide affordable housing to thousands more point: people are anxious. That is why we deferred the people. Will he please look to review whether there self-assessment tax return that is due shortly to provide should be a higher level, perhaps £9,500, for live-in some cash-flow benefit. We have also deferred VAT to a landlords with two or more lodgers, and would he be significant degree, which will help with cash-flow benefit, willing to have a virtual meeting with the Lodger Landlords and many self-employed people will benefit from the Association at an appropriate time? business interruption loans, which are also interest-free. Jesse Norman: I am always delighted to meet my hon. Emergency Cash Grant Scheme Friend. In 2016, as I have mentioned, the Government raised the threshold. In 2018, the Government consulted 6. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What estimate on the scheme and there was consensus among the he has made of the number of businesses in (a) Kettering respondents that the relief provides an effective incentive constituency, (b) Northamptonshire and (c) England for people to make spare rooms available for rent. Of that will benefit from the emergency cash grant scheme course, I take his point and he has put it squarely on the announced on 17 March 2020. [901723] record. As with all tax policy, we will look at this and other measures and keep them under review. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): We are providing cash grants of £10,000 to over 700,000 15. [901736] Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth small and medium-sized businesses across England and and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): I think we are all united grants of up to £25,000 per property for qualifying retail, in saying that nobody should lose their home as a result hospitality and leisure businesses. We estimate that these of financial hardship brought about by the coronavirus combined measures will benefit up to 1 million businesses pandemic. Again, we absolutely welcome the steps that in England. Local authorities will deliver these grants the Chancellor and the Treasury have taken so far, but over the coming weeks and consequently will have is it possible to find more fiscal support to safeguard information about the number of firms that have benefited tenants in the private rented sector so that we can at a local level in due course. guarantee that these people are also able to keep their homes in the months ahead? Mr Hollobone: I declare my interest as a member of Kettering Borough Council. May I thank the Chancellor Jesse Norman: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, and the Treasury for coming forward at top speed with we have specifically ruled out the possibility of eviction this business support package? May I also thank all the for three months, and we will continue to look at that hard-working staff at Kettering Borough Council who situation as well. will be delivering these grants to local businesses? Will the Minister send out the message to Kettering and the School Funding country that when the economy comes roaring back, once this pandemic is over, local authorities will have 9. Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) played a key role in ensuring that that happens? (Con): What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Education on school funding. Jesse Norman: I thank my hon. Friend for that wise [901729] comment. Wevery much share his views. Local authorities are crucial to delivery of a whole range of the support The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): I that we are now giving, and we will be very much regularly discuss school funding with the Secretary of acknowledging their role. We will also be supporting State for Education. At the spending round, the them, as he will know, through the business rates process Government committed to a £7.1 billion cash increase and the hardship fund. in the funding for schools in England by 2022-23.

Rent a Room Scheme Stuart Anderson: I understand that there are immediate pressing issues for the Department, but after this will 7. Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con): What my right hon. Friend arrange to meet me and the assessment he has made of the socioeconomic effect of Education Secretary to discuss the funding of a secondary raising the Rent a Room Scheme threshold to £7,500. school in Wolverhampton? [901725] Steve Barclay: I would be very happy to give that The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): commitment to my hon. Friend. He will be aware of the As my hon. Friend will know, Rent a Room relief has significant allocation to capital funding that was set out been a feature of the income tax system since 1992. In by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in the Budget, 2016, the Government raised the threshold to £7,500. and obviously part of the discussion at the comprehensive That was designed to deliver the Government’s objective spending round will be the allocation of that budget. 195 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 196

Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): When Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady will know from the the Minister is meeting the Secretary of State for Education, statements made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary will he also talk about funding for the early years and of State for Health and Social Care that significant nurseries sector? The 30 hours of free childcare is not efforts have been made on this, working with domestic working, and manyof these nurseries were facing unviability manufacturers and procuring additional resource and before the current crisis. stock internationally. On funding, we have been very clear with the Department of Health and Social Care Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman raises an important that it will have whatever funding it needs, and that has point, because across the House people recognise the been the case to date. importance of early years and early intervention, but he will be aware of the wider package of funding showing Covid-19: VAT Reduction the Government’s commitment to education, not just in primary schools and secondary schools but through the 11. Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): Whether he measures on further education set out by my right hon. plans to reduce VAT for businesses affected by the Friend the Chancellor in the Budget. covid-19 outbreak. [901731]

NHS Funding The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): Last Friday, the Government announced that they were deferring VAT payments for the next quarter, so that 10. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): UK VAT-registered businesses will not need to pay any What steps he is taking to ensure the adequacy of VAT, alongside their normal VAT returns, until the end funding for the NHS. [901730] of June. That deferral is worth more than £30 billion, or 1.5% of GDP. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): already offers help to businesses struggling to meet their We have been clear that the NHS will get whatever it VAT payments, with arrangements such as Time to Pay. needs to respond to the coronavirus. The Chancellor In the light of the covid-19 outbreak, the Chancellor announced at Budget a £5 billion response fund and we has outlined a range of measures to help businesses have already allocated a significant proportion of that through the crisis, including grants, loans and relief to a range of measures. from business rates worth more than £330 billion. The Treasury will continue to review this and make further announcements as events unfold. Stephen Crabb: What frontline staff do in the NHS every single day is remarkable at the best of times, and Owen Thompson: Scottish National party Members what we are asking them to do now and in the weeks welcome the actions that have been announced so far by ahead will be incredibly challenging in terms of both the Chancellor to support the economy during this the physical and emotional pressures and the personal outbreak. Given the particular strain felt by sectors risks to NHS staff, so would my right hon. Friend such as hospitality, will the Minister consider reducing reaffirm that as well as providing the extra money the VAT rate they are charged, in addition to the announced in the Budget, the Government will do all deferrals already announced? they can to ensure that frontline NHS staff get all the equipment they need, including protective clothing, to Jesse Norman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his get the country through this crisis? question. He will be aware that those businesses will fall under the VAT announcements that have already been Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend is absolutely made for the next quarter and that they are also already right. The Chancellor has made it clear that we will do the beneficiaries of grants of £10,000 for the smallest whatever it takes to protect our NHS frontline, not just businesses and of £25,000 for larger ones in the hospitality, through PPE, as he correctly identifies, but by looking leisure and retail sectors. at additional capacity,such as in the independent hospitals sector,and at the support available,including the £1.3 billion Marine Renewables: Fiscal Support allocated to speed up the discharge of patients, the £1.6 billion allocated to local authorities for adult social 12. Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) care and, of course, funding such as the £30 million for (LD): What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues diagnostics research and £10 million for diagnostic testing on fiscal support for the development of marine renewables. that has also been allocated in recent days. [901732]

Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): As a The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): House, we require more specific detail about exactly The Government take seriously their climate change what funding and arrangements are being provided responsibilities, including the target of net zero greenhouse across Government in relation to testing and PPE gas emissions by 2050. That means enabling a diverse availability. We are all hearing from staff that they do range of low-carbon technologies, and we see the use of not have the resources they need. The Minister talked marine renewables in the future energy mix, though about that funding, but to what extent is it being spent developers must demonstrate how those can compete in the field, and what discussions has his Department with the low prices achieved by wind and solar technologies. had with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Department of Health and Mr Carmichael: In order to compete with those Social Care about pulling in additional manufacturers technologies, these renewables have to get from the not just for ventilators but for PPE and testing? research and development stage to commercial deployment. 197 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 198

The industry knows that and has come up with a John Glen: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has mechanism known as the innovation power purchase set out clearly not only the range of measures that we agreement. Is there any reason why the Government are have taken but our determination to come up with an not engaging with that? I have to tell the Minister that enduring solution that addresses the range of challenges. these developers are not going to hang around in this The whole Treasury team is fully aware of how distressing country forever. If they cannot make that step here, and challenging people are finding it out there and we they will go elsewhere and do it. are working as fast as we can to come up with a solution that works for everyone. John Glen: I am very aware of the 1,700 people who work in this area in the right hon. Gentleman’sconstituency David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): If the current and across Wales and Scotland. I am also aware that he coronavirus and financial crisis has taught us one thing, wrote to the previous Exchequer Secretary, who moved it is that we need to look again at zero-hours contracts post before he could get a reply.At the moment, renewables and the difficulty that they put many of our constituents are five times more expensive than wind and solar, but in. I very much welcome the measures that have been the Government will engage in a dialogue with the brought forward on support for businesses and employees, industry as we look to resolve this and move forward and I very much hope that we will hear about support constructively. for the self-employed in the response to the urgent question this afternoon, but there is a lot of concern Mr Speaker: I call Andrew Rosindell. He is not here. among zero-hours workers. Will the Minister outline what support the Government are going to bring forward Low-paid Workers: Wages Increase for zero-hours workers in Glasgow East?

John Glen: If they are on pay-as-you-earn, they are 14. Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): What steps eligible for the job-retention scheme,but the hon. Gentleman he is taking to increase wages for low-paid workers. makes a fair point about the range of concerns that [901734] exist, and we continue to look carefully at what we can do to enhance the measures that have already been The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): announced. He will be aware of the enhancements to Low-paid workers will continue to benefit from above- the welfare package—my right hon. Friend the Chancellor average pay rises, with the national living wage set to has announced that an additional £6.5 billion has been reach two thirds of median earnings and to be extended put in so far—and we will continue to look at what to workers aged 21 and over by 2024, providing economic more can be done. conditions allow. That is projected to benefit nearly 4 million low-paid workers. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I encourage the Minister not to make the perfect the enemy of good in Paul Bristow: I thank the Minister for that response the design of the scheme. Many self-employed workers and for everything he is doing to protect jobs in are worrying about their inability to put food on the Peterborough and across the country. I was proud to table this week. They are finding the universal credit stand on our manifesto in December and, in particular, system completely overwhelmed, so I encourage Ministers on our commitment to protect the low paid. The to announce the scheme and make sure that the cash Government have taken vital steps in the short term to gets through. It has to be soon; otherwise, people are protect jobs. Will he confirm that this Budget is also going to be in real hardship. providing a £200 tax cut for the typical family in Peterborough? John Glen: The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. That issue is why we have tried to move forward John Glen: Absolutely. I can confirm to my hon. on interventions that could be done quickly and have Friend that a typical employee will be about £104 better done them as quickly as we can. In respect of universal off next year through the cut in national insurance and credit, we have increased the UC standard allowance the freeze in fuel and alcohol duties, and the abolition from £317.82 to £409.89 per month for single claimants. of other taxes, such as the tampon tax, will also be of We have increased the local housing allowance, we have benefit to many of his constituents, for whom he has relaxed the earnings rules for self-employed UC claimants, been fighting hard since he came to this place. and we will continue to look at every measure that we can to make an impact in the lives of those people who Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Many low-paid are suffering as the hon. Gentleman describes. workers are self-employed. When I raised this matter with the Leader of the House yesterday, he said: Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): The Minister “The Government are inevitably conscious that when we close talks about looking at every measure that we can, but places by order and that has an effect on people’s livelihoods, the Chancellor just appeared to rule out a universal there is a societal responsibility.”—[Official Report, 23 March minimum basic income. Is that not quite disappointing? 2020; Vol. 674, c. 27.] The way to answer these questions—the way to avoid Many of these low-paid self-employed people work in thousands of people being laid off, ending up on universal the music industry. I know that we have an urgent credit and potentially getting trapped in the benefits question coming up, but I say to the Minister that they system—is to provide a minimum income guarantee for will be looking for more reassurance than we have everyone. That would also help to provide a fiscal heard so far this morning that the Government are stimulus in the economy once we start to get through going to introduce a scheme and do it soon. this crisis. 199 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 200

John Glen: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor set is an accurate reflection of what they earn. We need out clearly the reasons why we have some concerns some urgent action for this sizeable group of workers. about, and indeed would not want to have, that universal There are at least nearly a million zero-hours workers, guarantee. We want to make sure that the interventions perhaps a million more. we make are targeted at those who are most in need at this time, and not giving money unnecessarily to people Rishi Sunak: As we are putting in place the detailed who are wealthy. guidance for the scheme, we are actively considering the question of how best to average the earnings of people Topical Questions in this situation. I very much take on board the suggestion that the right hon. Gentleman has made, and I know that my team are engaging with those unions as we T1. [901737] Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. speak to try to get the details right.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): We T3. [901740] Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) are facing an unprecedented challenge as a country, as a (Con): I commend the Chancellor and his team for the Government and as a society.The spread of the coronavirus robust policy response that we have seen to this crisis so has precipitated the extraordinary but necessary actions far, but may I ask them to continue to focus laser-like taken by this Government over the past week to protect on the issue of cash flow, which is particularly important people’s health and livelihoods and the economy we all to smaller businesses, particularly important to the rely on. There will be challenging times ahead, and workforce, and particularly important to the vulnerable despite the significant economic interventions that we groups in society? That issue of cash flow is probably have put in place, we will not be able to protect every the most important when it comes to determining single job or save every single business, but I am confident employment, which is important to everyone in this that the measures we have put in place will provide Chamber and to the country at large. support to millions of people and businesses and ensure that we do get through this, get through it together, and Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about emerge on the other side both stronger and more united. the importance of cash flow, which is why we have targeted our interventions specifically at smaller businesses Joy Morrissey: The start-up loan programme has been by providing extra cash flow support. We have done so hugely successful in getting thousands of new businesses through the £10,000 grant to every business in receipt of off the ground, particularly in my constituency of small business rate or rural rate relief and, indeed, Beaconsfield. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the through the deferral of VAT, which starts from today announcement that the programme will be extended is for the quarter. As my right hon. Friend the Financial hugely welcome news for entrepreneurs right across the Secretary to the Treasury said earlier, that represents country? more than £35 billion, or 1.5% of GDP-worth of tax deferral, providing immediate cash-flow support. We have done the same thing for self-assessment payments Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is a champion for that are due in the coming months and have also, as of entrepreneurship in her constituency, and rightly so. yesterday, launched a business interruption loan scheme, The start-up loan programme is an excellent programme, which my hon. Friend has done fantastic work developing. providing grants of £25,000 for budding entrepreneurs. It will provide 12-month interest-free loans to small It has been operational for some years now and has businesses, again, to help provide them with the liquidity provided almost 70,000 loans, putting to work more that they need to get through this. than half a billion pounds. It is absolutely right that, as we think about our future coming through the coronavirus, it will be the entrepreneurs of tomorrow who will help T2. [901739] Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) to create new jobs and drive the prosperity that we will (Lab): I acknowledge that the Government are dealing all want to see.1 with an incredible number of challenges at this time and pay tribute on behalf of all MPs to the work that has John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): May been done by Ministers, by those on the Front Benches I again welcome much of what the Chancellor is doing, and by the people behind the scenes who are supporting and say that we wish to work with him as positively as them in this work. we possibly can in this very difficult period? I just wish The financial challenges of families with children to return to the issue of zero-hours workers.The Chancellor have not yet been specifically addressed, so will the said very clearly that this applies to all those who are on Treasury listen to the Child Poverty Action Group and PAYE, and I welcome that, but the point that we have work with the Department for Work and Pensions on a been making is that many of these zero-hours contract fairly simple solution that will put money directly into workers—in fact, most of them—are not on PAYE. the pockets of families with children, which is temporarily They are called limb (b) workers, so the scheme does to increase child benefit? not apply to them. I understand that he is doing his best and I understand the complications, but he has also said The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): that for zero-hours workers, employers may compensate I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for the suggestion, on the basis of average hours worked. The unions in and we will certainly look closely at the Child Poverty this field representing those workers have urged that Action Group’s recommendation. this should be mandatory and applied to all zero-hours and variable-hours workers based on average earnings T4. [901742] Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con): On over the previous weeks. That is exactly how those behalf of my constituents in Clwyd South, may I commend workers’ holiday pay is calculated at the moment, and it the Treasury team for its hard and speedy work over the 1.[Official Report, 21 April 2020, Vol. 675, c. 1MC.] 201 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 202 past couple of weeks? Will my right hon. Friend confirm The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): that this Government will stand behind businesses, small The right hon. Gentleman makes a very reasonable and large, in Clwyd South and elsewhere in Wales and point, and sets out a range of issues. The Government the UK as the crisis progresses? will be looking into this, and I will liaise with my colleagues in the Department for Business, Energy and Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments Industrial Strategy to ensure that they are focusing on and pay tribute to the work that he is doing to represent all the dimensions of the problem that he has outlined. his constituents and make sure that his local businesses get the support that they need. I hope that his businesses T6. [901746] Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) welcome the various interventions that we have provided (Con): The Chancellor has been more creative and in terms of cash flow support, tax relief deferrals, and accommodating than his equivalents in any other subsidised loans to help them get through this difficult jurisdiction. Setting aside the question of fairness, how period. If he has further ideas that he thinks we should practical is it to use historical tax data to try to impute consider, I would be very happy to talk to him further. a wage equivalent for the self-employed? Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Supply teachers play a vital role in our schools. Many thousands, including Rishi Sunak: I thank my right hon. Friend for his my constituent Ellie Atkinson, have found themselves comments. It is certainly possible to use those historical out of work, so may I urge the Treasury to look at a way returns. They are a year and a half out of date, so they of supporting these vital workers, either with direct will be necessarily imperfect. They also do not provide financial support or by ensuring that they can actually an easy way to distinguish between those who are deserving work in the schools that are being kept open? of support and whose incomes are being affected by what is happening, and those who are much wealthier The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): and whose incomes are potentially increasing currently, The right hon. Gentleman will know that school budgets but they do provide a basis and a universe to look at. have been allocated, so the schools already have that money to spend; that will not change. The announcement Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): When I mentioned that the Chancellor has made about the PAYE system is earlier that the universal credit system was overwhelmed, about supporting people through that mechanism. If the Minister may not quite have taken on board the the right hon. Gentleman has other proposals, I am point I was raising. A self-employed worker sent me a happy to engage with him to discuss them further. screenshot of their attempts to use the system yesterday; 33,383 people were ahead of them in the queue to use T5. [901744] Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) the claims section of the website. Unless this is resolved, (Con): I welcome my right hon. Friend’s world-leading people who need money right now—limited though package of support to businesses. There are many charities that money is under universal credit—simply will not be and community care providers in West Bromwich East, able to get hold of it through the system. including Sandwell Community Caring Trust, which are all working extremely hard to protect the vulnerable. Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman raises an important I thank them, and all the teachers and frontline staff in point about the pressure on the Department for Work my constituency. Will he confirm that all charities that and Pensions at this time. That is a key reason why the pay through PAYE will be eligible for the scheme and design of the schemes that we have been looking at and relief package? that have been put forward by the Chancellor do not add complexity and pressure on the DWP. We have Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for her support, been actively working on identifying where we can free and join her in paying tribute to Sandwell Community up and reprioritise resource in DWP to assist with this Caring Trust, which we will be relying on through this issue. I have been discussing the matter with the Secretary difficult period. I can confirm that charities are eligible of State for Work and Pensions, and working closely for the job retention support programme. Further to with her on it. that, we have allocated extra funding to the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to provide Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Obviously, airports money to local charitable or caring organisations, especially and airlines are particularly adversely affected by the to help those we are attempting to shield—the most covid-19 situation. vulnerable—in order to protect them against the effects of the coronavirus. Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is right, especially given John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Yesterday in the Chamber, his constituency, to highlight the importance of airlines I and my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, and airports. They have been particularly impacted by Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne) raised the question of escalating what is happening. I am in active dialogue with the prices in local shops and concerns about profiteering. Secretary of State for Transport and expect to write We understand that the Competition and Markets soon on that matter. Authority may be looking into this issue, but may I ask the Minister to urge it very rapidly to look at where this Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Ind): is taking place? Is it local shops, wholesalers or cash and In Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath and other constituencies, carry, or suppliers? Is it even to do with the international public service workers, not bankers or nuclear weapons, market in terms of perishable goods? This is a matter of will get us through this crisis. We must therefore change real concern. Once the Government have found out our focus. Will the Chancellor consider whether the where the problem is, will they bring forward measures nurses, doctors and other public service workers, who to crack down on this profiteering? will be doing double shifts and working extra hours to 203 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 204 get us through, can get tax relief on those extra hours so Rishi Sunak: Detailed guidance is available. Further that they are properly rewarded and recognised for their guidance will be provided and our aim is to build the tremendous efforts? new scheme so that it is operational by the end of April. That is a challenge. We are already working night and Rishi Sunak: We pay tribute to our public sector day to construct something from scratch, but claims workers, particularly those who are on the frontline of will be allowed to be backdated to 1 March so that the NHS as we speak. We have said that we will make businesses have the security of knowing that the cash-flow any and all funding available to the NHS to provide and rebate will be coming. As I have said, the aim is to have support that workforce. That is exactly what we are the scheme up and running so that the April payroll can doing, as my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary be reimbursed through it. outlined earlier. In the Budget, we specifically changed Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): One of the taper relief, which was causing hours challenges for the problems with this crisis is that we do not know how senior doctors and GPs. That was a significant fiscal long it is going to last. I have businesses in my intervention—we are providing more than £2 billion of constituency—events companies, conference companies tax relief to ensure that there is no disincentive for those and sporting companies—that have long lead-in times senior clinicians to provide the extra work at this time. to organise their events, but they cannot cancel them yet and thereby claim insurance because there is no Government Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): The guidance. Do the Government have any plans to give economic interventions that the Chancellor spoke about guidance, particularly to the insurance companies and are greatly welcome in Bournemouth East. Will he join events companies, that will perhaps say, “No events for me in paying tribute to the armed forces for what they the next six months”? are doing and what they will do? We should all recognise that that is in addition to their day job of keeping the John Glen: We are working closely with the insurance nation safe. What will happen in the spending review? industry,and obviously events companies are underpinned Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important by contractual obligations. We established that if they that there is additional capacity for our armed forces so have cover relevant to non-specified diseases, the that they can deal with the threats that continue to exist, announcements by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor but also have the ability to step forward to help the have triggered those policies to be paid out, but I am nation in times of crisis? happy to look at any specific cases that individual Members want to bring to me, which I can take up with Rishi Sunak: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right industry representatives. to highlight the importance of our armed services, and I Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): In the join him in paying tribute to them for what they are wake of the last economic crisis, when we needed the doing, not just to keep us safe every day, but right now banks to stand on the side of small businesses, too often when we are calling on them to help us meet this public they did not, and many of us have seen too many health emergency.As we speak, they are doing extraordinary examples of small businesses being bullied into bankruptcy. work to help our healthcare system to respond to what What can my right hon. Friend the Chancellor say is coming. We recognise that, and it will be recognised about the posture he wants to see from the banks at this when we think about funding for the armed services not time? just today, but in the future. John Glen: The Chancellor and I have had dialogue Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): One newspaper is with individual heads of high street banks. I have been already reporting that the Chancellor will implement an speaking to the head of UK Finance this morning and income protection scheme for the self-employed and will be convening a meeting of bank representatives make an announcement in the next 24 hours. I must say later today. We anticipate that the banks should be I got a slightly longer timescale from the Chancellor’s taking the most sympathetic forbearance measures possible, earlier reply, when he talked about the end of April. To and we have set out very clearly, as my right hon. Friend come back to the point about reassurance, will he give the Chancellor did, that the loan scheme is interest-free some real reassurance now to those anxious self-employed for the first 12 months, with no fees or repayment people across the country that an announcement will be penalties. I expect the banks to step up to the mark, as I made very shortly? know they will. We have to remember that many of the people actually delivering this service in high street branches or in call centres are not very well paid and are Rishi Sunak: We hope to have something to say very working flat-out to deliver a key service to our nation at shortly. Implementation will take longer for the reasons this time. I outlined, when a good point was made about capacity, whether at HMRCor DWP,to deliver brand-new schemes. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): The message However,in terms of saying what we plan to do, hopefully from the Prime Minister last night for our constituents we can do that relatively shortly. Implementation will to stay at home could not have been clearer, but many of take longer because of the clear delivery challenges that our constituents who are staying at home will have the scheme would pose. increased energy bills as a result. The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) is Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): I thank my right hon. co-ordinating a cross-party letter to the Government Friend and the Treasury team for all their work to help asking for a reduction in VAT on energy bills. Are they people through this crisis. Will my right hon. Friend willing to look favourably upon that to support our outline when employers can access the scheme for job constituents, who will have higher energy bills as a retention scheme and furloughed workers? result of staying at home? 205 Oral Answers 24 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 206

Jesse Norman: We are certainly very happy to look at considerable amount. It is about finding a way to target whatever letter the hon. Gentleman or his colleagues on support for those who most need it, and that is what is a cross-party basis may wish to present. requiring time and thought.

Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Will the Chancellor Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): join me in thanking Shropshire Council and the hard- I want to follow on from my right hon. and gallant working people at Telford and Wrekin Council? Cash Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) flow is becoming a real issue for many local councils, and talk about our great armed forces. I expressed my with many having to borrow. Could he encourage his delight at the budget of £10 million identified for veterans’ officials in the Treasury to be a bit more flexible as to mental health. Will the Chancellor confirm that that where finance can come from and the use of reserves? will remain a priority, as the problem does not go away? Rishi Sunak: I am happy to look at specific suggestions. Steve Barclay: I am happy to give that assurance. I I pay tribute not only to my hon. Friend’s council but to know my hon. Friend is a champion—rightly so—of all councils for the sterling work they are doing in our armed forces and speaks with great experience and delivering our grant schemes to many of their small authority on that. He will be aware of a number of local businesses. We are in dialogue already with the measures that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, announced. That is one of them, and we stand by it. to ensure that councils’ cash-flow needs are adequately met. There are things we are doing actively in terms of the timing of the various grant payments we make, to Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): A couple of ease some of the near-term cash-flow pressures. times in the context of the self-employed, the Chancellor has mentioned wealthy people whose incomes are Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Can the Chancellor increasing. That is not who we are talking about. We are clarify whether the emergency cash grant scheme is talking about people who have lost their entire income intended to help per shop for businesses with more than overnight. Will he please provide some more reassurance one premise in different towns, or is it just for the that it is his intention to provide help to those people? business as a whole? Does he intend to say how he will do that very soon and say to the banks in the meantime that they should be Rishi Sunak: The detailed eligibility criteria are online extending credit on a free basis, on the basis of what he and will be provided by local authorities. The grants of has promised, so that people can get on with their lives? £10,000 are done on a per premise basis for businesses that are in receipt of small business rate relief and rural Rishi Sunak: The hon. Gentleman illustrates exactly rate relief. There are larger grants for those in the retail, the issue with such a scheme. Looking at historical tax leisure and hospitality sector of up to £25,000. The return data from a year and a half ago gives absolutely Business Secretary has written already to local authorities, no guide as to whether someone today who is self-employed which are, as we speak, writing to businesses that are is prosperous, and indeed that their income may be eligible for those grants to seek their bank details and increasing versus someone, who is not. Of course I am start making cash payments as soon as is practically sympathetic to those whose situation is being adversely possible. affected by what is going on. The issue is one of finding a way to target help at them, rather than having something Mr Speaker: Before we move on to the urgent question, that provides blanket cash subsidies to 5 million people, I should say that I am bothered that Members are many of whom will not need it, which will end up rather close in some areas of the Chamber. If it is costing all our constituents on modest incomes a possible to spread out, I would be very grateful. 207 24 MARCH 2020 Self-employed Persons: 208 Financial Support Self-employed Persons: Financial Support business account. We are also removing the minimum income floor for the self-employed workers affected by coronavirus so that they too can access universal credit 12.31 pm in full. That is not only the standard allowance, but a Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD) wider package of support for those with children, disabilities (Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor to make a or, indeed, housing needs. At the same time, the next statement on financial support for the self-employed in self-assessment income tax payments will be deferred the light of the covid-19 pandemic. until January 2021, helping those who have set money aside for those payments with immediate cash flow. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): That means there is a package on tax, on loans and, We know that many self-employed people are in real more widely, through universal credit, to support those distress, but we are working urgently to address this with that safety net. problem, and I say to the self-employed: we have not Let me reassure everyone in this House and the forgotten you—help is coming. But the policy and self-employed people they represent that further help is delivery are complex, and we cannot and should not indeed coming, but we have to make sure we get this right rush to announce a scheme that gives rise to more and that we target the right support to those who are questions than it answers. The Chancellor has held most in need. The Chancellor will provide a further update meetings this morning with representatives of the self- on support for the self-employed in the coming days. employed and will continue to meet them this afternoon. It is important to remember that covid-19 is an Sir Edward Davey: I thank the Chief Secretary to the urgent challenge to our entire economy, affecting workers Treasury for that answer. He knows that parties on all of all types. It is essential that we respond swiftly, so sides of the House have been supportive of the way in that people can keep their jobs and businesses can carry which the Chancellor and the Treasury have given support on. That is the basis of our coherent, co-ordinated and to businesses and to employees. But I have to tell him comprehensive plan. It is a plan that gives those on the that the 5 million self-employed people across the country, frontline the tools they need to tackle the virus, with all who are in all our constituencies, are in real stress and the support the NHS needs, backed up by an initial are deeply worried. While we all understand that there £5 billion fund for public services. It is a plan that puts a are complications, the Government have to move as fast shoulder behind business with a statutory sick pay relief as possible to meet their concerns, because they are package for small and medium-sized enterprises, business literally, in many cases, simply running out of money. rates holidays for all retail hospitality, leisure and nursery I want to say to those on the Treasury Bench that it businesses in England, and grant funding for small is important we remember who the self-employed are: enterprises, as well as support through Her Majesty’s 80% of the 5 million self-employed are sole traders. Revenue and Customs’time to pay scheme.As of yesterday, They are our neighbours, our friends, our family. The businesses with cash-flow concerns are also able to vast majority are not wealthy people. They are cleaners, access the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, taxi drivers, plumbers, hairdressers; they are musicians, offering up to £5 million for SMEs through the British tutors, journalists; and they are builders, electricians Business Bank. For larger firms—[Interruption.] and child minders. These people are literally running out of money now, and we have to support them. Mr Speaker: Order. It might be easier if Members Of course there will be stories about wealthy people pass notes down the line, rather than going round and who are self-employed, but they are the minority. If we speaking to everybody. look at the figures from HMRC’s own data, 36% of sole traders—the majority of the self-employed—have taxable Steve Barclay: The coronavirus business interruption incomes of less than £10,000 a year. That compares loan scheme, on which Members across the House have with just 15% of employees on incomes that low. We are raised questions, is now available, offering up to £5 million talking about people on low incomes: 60% have profits for SMEs through the British Business Bank. For larger of less than £10,000 a year. These people were struggling firms, the Bank of England is providing a new facility before the coronavirus pandemic, and they are now to help support liquidity. facing ruin. I urge all Members of the House to continue I think that an urgent package of help is needed now, speaking—as I know many are doing—to the business and it needs to be at least the equivalent of that offered leaders in their constituencies and ensure they are aware to employees. While we all know the problems that the that they are not alone and that help is coming. In this Treasury is facing, may I say to the Chief Secretary that House, we are all standing behind business and everyone if the package is capped as it was for employees, if it is who works in it. To encourage businesses to retain staff, temporary as it was for employees and, especially for we are deferring VAT, and my right hon. Friend the the self-employed, if there is some sort of clawback Chancellor has announced the job retention scheme to mechanism if people are given money that they did not facilitate that. need, surely we can come together as a House and as a Taken together, this is a huge programme of support, country to make sure these people get the support they and we will keep thousands of workers in jobs, but we need? It is not uncommon for the self-employed, when know that there are thousands of self-employed people they do their annual self-assessment tax return, to have who have been wondering what the future holds for to pay money back to the Treasury. Surely, if money is them. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has already given now so they can deal with cash flow—capped, in a set out a range of measures in support. Sole traders and temporary scheme—then that money can be clawed freelancers will be able to access the business interruption back the next time they do their self-assessment, if it loan scheme as long as activity is channelled through a turns out that they did not need it. 209 Self-employed Persons: 24 MARCH 2020 Self-employed Persons: 210 Financial Support Financial Support [Sir Edward Davey] are not the people who are contacting us. The ones who are contacting me at the moment are the plumbers and I honestly urge those on the Treasury Bench to move the hairdressers. Yes, some freelance artists and others fast, and not to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the are in desperate straits, but I do not think there is a good. People need the money now: please act now. Member who has not received representations. We are just looking for something we can go back with today Steve Barclay: The right hon. Gentleman is right to to give them some assurance. We know how complicated emphasise the importance of timing and speed in this it is, but we have to find a solution quickly. I urge the regard. He spoke about how that can be targeted and Government to at least set a deadline, so we can go back the fact that there are many very deserving causes to our members and say, “By the end of this week, there within the population, but it is probably useful to draw will be a proposal brought forward.” the House’s attention to the fact that one in 10 of those The other assurance that people want was raised by who are self-employed are over state pension age. Over the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton two in 10, according to the 2017-18 figures, were earning (Sir Edward Davey). If we can go back and say, “You less than £2,000, which suggests that it was not their will get the equivalent of the 80% or whatever that was main source of income. Between one and a half and two offered to other workers,” it would lift people’s spirits out of 10 are already on universal credit. Some remainders that something was on the way. will be quite well paid, such as law partners and so on, and some will be in employment and returning self- Many self-employed workers, just like other workers, employment tax forms for part of their income in are having to sign themselves off sick. They do not have addition to their employment. The point is that the access to statutory sick pay—still. I have to say that population itself is complex and we need to ensure that asking people to survive on £94.25 a week is just an the measures are targeted correctly. impossible ask. When the Secretary of State for Health was asked on television last week whether he could live The right hon. Gentleman raised the mechanism. on it, he said no. I agree with him. We need the level of One of the themes that has informed the Treasury’s sick pay raised for everybody if we are expecting them approach is this: what is operationally deliverable? That to choose not to work, and not have to choose between is one of the things we are working through. For health and hardship. example, HMRC does not hold people’s bank accounts, which is why the support the package for those in Finally, in Treasury questions my right hon. Friend employment was through the PAYE—pay-as-you-earn— the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) raised a system. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out point about different categories of workers. I know that at Treasury questions, tax data is one and a half years it is complicated, but we do have to consider agency old. Those are the issues we are working through. The workers. I have had many emails and telephone calls right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that urgency is from people working in the construction sector who do important—that is why the Chancellor is engaged on not know whether they should be at work today, or this—but we are seeking to target a complex population. whether they would be safe if they were. Let us use this opportunity to look at the exploitation by payroll companies Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): and umbrella companies of people who in many instances Recognising the complexity of solving this problem, are forcibly designated as self-employed. can my right hon. Friend give some indication of how We do not want a row over this; we want to work with quickly we can expect to have at least an interim solution the Government. In fact, Anneliese and I are happy to in place for those who are desperate for help and come and work a shift in the Treasury, if that is what desperate for clarity at this point? Ministers want. [Interruption.] We might come up with slightly different solutions. We need this quickly and we Steve Barclay: For some within this population—not need it to be effective as soon as possible. all—there will be some solution already through the £5 million loan that is available as of yesterday. That will not cover the entirety of this population, but, in Several hon. Members rose— accordance with the business needs of some who are self-employed, there is support. For some of the Mr Speaker: Order. I am aiming for this to last until population—again, by no means all—there will be some about 1.20 pm. relief through some of the measures the Chancellor set out on property and business rate relief, but part of the complexity of the target population is that different Steve Barclay: May I first welcome the constructive measures work for different groups. That is part of what tone that the right hon. Gentleman has struck? His my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is working through, offer to come to the Treasury might contravene some of but I recognise the point my hon. Friend the Member the recent social distancing requirements, but I appreciate for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady) and the spirit in which it was made. He is right that we need others have raised. We do recognise the importance of to move at pace and to work together. That is why my timing on this issue. right hon. Friend the Chancellor was involved in further meetings this morning, as he will be later today, as we John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Can work through how to take this forward. I say to the right hon. Gentleman and other Members The Chancellor was drawing attention to the complexity that no one is looking for a row over this? We are of the target population. I think that a number of looking for a solution. The reason some Members Members would have concerns, not least as we look to became irritated earlier was the emphasis, in one of the the future, if we were subsidising some very wealthy Chancellor’s responses, on the rich self-employed. They self-employed people. I take the point that they are not 211 Self-employed Persons: 24 MARCH 2020 Self-employed Persons: 212 Financial Support Financial Support the ones getting in touch with the right hon. Gentleman, with schemes for the self-employed; is he looking at but it is important that our approach is mindful of the those international examples? Surely what works in target population. those countries can work in the UK. There are 330,000 The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of reassurance, self-employed workers in Scotland, working in areas which is a legitimate concern, and one shared across the such as the creative industries, agriculture, forestry, House. I draw the attention of his constituents, and fishing, construction, and as taxi drivers. Are the those of colleagues across the House, to the Chancellor’s Government looking at increasing weekly sick pay from comments this morning. We are working at pace on this £94.25 to the equivalent of a week’s pay at the real and we recognise the issue being raised. I hope that living wage? Are they considering removing the lower provides reassurance, certainly in terms of an earnings limit for qualification for sick pay to ensure announcement, although the operation of any solution that everyone can access it? Are they looking at ending may take further time, as the Chancellor set out. the five-week wait for universal credit, so that the first payment is a grant—a real payment—and not a loan? Considerable work is being done, but the population is complex. We are looking at the burdens of different delivery mechanisms, whether on the Department for Steve Barclay: On the issue of advance payments and Work and Pensions or local authorities, which have universal credit, the Chancellor has increased the standard their own staffing pressures because of the number who allowance. That is not the total quantum that people are ill. That is why we are exercising flexibility in lots of will get; I referred earlier to those with children, housing other areas in order to reprioritise resources, but it is needs or a disability, who would get more. We have also important that the scheme is deliverable and mindful of made changes to access, so that people can get payment the other challenges we are dealing with. quickly, from day one, without face-to-face meetings. Concerns about subsequent repayments have often been Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): May I make raised in the House, but clearly, the £20 a week increase a point from a public accounts point of view by urging in universal credit that has been announced eases some the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to consider a system of the repayment issues; it means that there is more in that is humane, rapid and, above all, simple? The Treasury the allowance with which to address the issue of repayments. and the Department for Work and Pensions have There has been a significant increase in universal credit, traditionally been obsessed with complexity, targeting in part to address those issues. There is some operational and clawback, but what we need is a simple system. complexity around a shift to a grant system because of About 40 years ago I suggested having a universal basic the way that the universal credit IT system has been set income to Mrs Thatcher, and I got an earful for my up. We have sought to address the concern to which the pains. But we need something like that, which could be hon. Gentleman refers through the increase, and of rolled out very simply and claimed by taxi drivers, course an advance can still be offered. cleaners and those sorts of people, because rich people Changes have been made to facilitate statutory sick would not bother with it. So just get on with it, make it pay being paid from day one, and changes have been simple and do it now. made in respect of employers with 250 or fewer employees; the Chancellor set out measures to support those businesses Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend wants us to get with those costs. on with it. I refer him to the meetings and the considerable The hon. Gentleman made a point relating to what I work being done to allow us to get on with it. As a said about simplicity in a previous answer. Let me former Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, he clarify the point that I was making. The vast majority of well knows that many policy ideas start with the simple people who are self-employed are suffering; we recognise but then the devil is in the detail of delivery. I recall that. We are looking at how we can design a scheme that many an interview that he has given to draw attention addresses the operational challenge that Members have to simple schemes that were then less simple in their spoken about. delivery. It is worth bearing in mind that a small number of self-employed people—a very small proportion—might Let me give an example. Part of the merit of the be doing quite well in the current climate, while many scheme that the Chancellor set out on furloughing others are suffering, but that is not what we are focusing members of staff, which is, I think, for many people a on now. The question that we are seeking to address is new concept, is that it gave clarity about delivery of the how we target our measures at those who are most scheme. In answer to the previous question and the deserving, which is what the attention of the House is issue that the hon. Gentleman raises, we are looking at focused on, and we need to ensure that the scheme that what is operationally deliverable quickly; what recognises is brought forward does likewise. other challenges in the Department for Work and Pensions and elsewhere; and what will not result in support going Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): Years to a small proportion of people who should not be ago, I read in the newspapers that there was a red Ed in getting this targeted action, and instead allow us to the House of Commons; I did not realise that it was the focus it on the much larger cadre of people who deserve right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). that help. I, too, will try to strike a conciliatory tone in talking to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Obviously, there Mr Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): is very real concern. Like other hon. Members, I have In designing his scheme, will the Chief Secretary to the been bombarded with emails from people who are Treasury recognise that many self-employed people in self-employed. When this crisis is over, we should really the tourism sector have very seasonal businesses, so sort out who is self-employed and who should be directly using February, for example, as a reference month would employed, but that is a debate for another time. Countries not be appropriate? Will he see what can be done to such as Norway, Denmark and Belgium have come up help recreational charter fishermen, who, because they 213 Self-employed Persons: 24 MARCH 2020 Self-employed Persons: 214 Financial Support Financial Support [Mr Robert Goodwill] the mood across the House—to take a similarly broad approach to benefit the majority of self-employed people pay harbour dues rather than business rates, have not who will need support, accepting that certain people been able to access the grant aid that their friends across may get support even if they do not quite need it. the road from the harbour have been able to? Steve Barclay: The Treasury is looking at those issues Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend draws attention in the design of the scheme. We recognise that the vast to the challenge that emerged from some earlier questions: majority of self-employed people face very considerable the simpler the scheme, the less it accommodates often challenges, and we are mindful of the urgency that goes legitimate and deserving issues that Members raise on with that. behalf of their constituents. I am very happy to have further discussions with him, but he will recognise the Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): More than 400 self- tension between simplicity and addressing all the concerns employed sole traders and freelancers have contacted that colleagues raise. me over the past 24 hours, and many of them have already lost their work because of this crisis. As well as Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): echoing others’ calls to introduce support for them as Two of my constituents are musicians. One is in an soon as possible, can I ask the Minister to ensure that orchestra, and the other is a freelancer. One will get such measures are backdated, as in the job retention 80% of his income paid, and the other will be on scheme, to help to address the disruption that has statutory sick pay. Surely, it would be better to have a already been caused by the covid-19 epidemic? system where one wealthy freelancer benefits but 100 do not go hungry. Steve Barclay: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about backdating. The Treasury has brought forward a Steve Barclay: I refer to my earlier comments. We are range of measures, and one of the challenges to date trying to target the support towards those who are in has been that it is not always understood what has been need, in a way that is operationally as deliverable as announced and what is already available. I draw attention possible, mindful of the issues that have been raised. We to the fact that we are deferring income tax self-assessments, also want to accommodate the other point that colleagues which will not need to be paid until January; we are from across the House have raised, namely that we must supporting people through the welfare system with the ensure that those who have legitimate needs are not measures that I announced earlier,including on contributory excluded from the measures. ESA; we are increasing universal credit and working tax credit by £1,000; we are suspending the minimum income Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Will Ministers floor for 12 months; we are increasing a three-month consider suspending the application of the loan charge mortgage holiday for those in difficulty; the self-employed for the period of this emergency, thus stopping the will be eligible to receive support with their tax affairs hounding of the self-employed people who were the through time to pay; the business interruption loan subject of an important debate in this place last week? scheme will be available for some self-employed individuals, up to the £5 million limit; and we have delayed IR35. Steve Barclay: I can provide a degree of reassurance Members of the House can assist our small business to my right hon. Friend that the self-assessment has community,and particularly the self-employed, by drawing been deferred from July to August. That is one of the attention to the measures that have been announced. areas where the Chancellor has taken action to address We in Government also stand ready to do that through concerns. a comms campaign.

Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): Many Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): I know that my of us, up and down the country, depend on sole traders right hon. Friend is working night and day to help for jobs around the house. People in many communities businesses, and to help people stay in work. I am that experienced flooding are expecting others to come incredibly grateful for all the support he has given me as to their homes and do work for them. How on earth are I respond to the self-employed in Wealden. The decision those households supposed to say, “We cannot have you to take out a loan is proving to be quite an anxious one helping us out and repairing our homes?” They are for the self-employed, if that is the only thing on the desperate for plumbers, electricians and so on. Those table. I will read out an email from Anna, a self-employed electricians, those plumbers and the owners of those wedding photographer who has had to give up work, properties want to do the right thing. What is the advice and who is going to try to find work elsewhere: of the Government? “I am loath to take any…loans offered, as there is no guarantee that future work will be able to take place because we have no idea Steve Barclay: Without straying into individual cases, how long this pandemic will last.” the key advice from the Government is to follow the I ask my right hon. Friend to take into account Anna’s medical advice that was set out following the Prime dilemma before making any announcement concerning Minister’s statement and updated on the Government the self-employed. website. That sets out the advice to workers, including what is safe to do and what is essential. Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): In its to the pressure unprecedented support for employed workers, the Treasury and decisions that Anna and so many self-employed took a fairly generous overarching approach. I urge the people are facing at this time. I draw attention to the Treasury—I am not the only one saying this; it represents fact that the loans are interest-free for 12 months. One 215 Self-employed Persons: 24 MARCH 2020 Self-employed Persons: 216 Financial Support Financial Support of the key themes we are very conscious of is that it is a their accountant. Will the Chief Secretary tell them health emergency that is impacting on our economy. how they can possibly put food on the table and pay These were viable businesses before that health emergency their bills? arose, and they will be viable businesses after we have overcome it. The question is, how do we bridge the gap? Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman speaks to a real How do we support Anna and others through this concern and a real issue, but I draw attention to the fact period? The interest-free loans are not the only measure; that one of the challenges is to communicate what I have just drawn the House’s attention to other measures support has already been announced by the Chancellor. that are available, and I urge Anna and others to take To give an example, a family renting in Sheffield with advantage of them. two children would be eligible for around £1,750 a month in support—far more than the £94 per week, if Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I we take account of additional things such as housing appreciate the difficulties in coming up with these and children’s support. It is about what package of arrangements, but I draw the Minister’s attention to the support is available, and the Chancellor has already fact that small traders are simply applying for universal announced considerable measures in that regard. credit, blocking up the universal credit system, because they are desperate for money from somewhere. That is Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I listened causing a problem for the Department for Work and carefully to what my right hon. Friend said. He Pensions, so delay does not get the problem to go away. acknowledged that the vast majority of self-employed People do not wait; they just try to find something else, people were being impacted. If he makes sure that which causes a knock-on problem. whatever help is given is taxable, we can claw back any money that is overpaid to those who are doing well. Steve Barclay: I accept the concern the hon. Lady However, what self-employed people are looking for is a raises, but I think she would equally accept that this is clear commitment today that whatever scheme is set out an unprecedented challenge and that staff in the DWP is of a similar magnitude to that for employed workers. and elsewhere are working heroically to address the If the Chief Secretary can say that, it will give people increased volumes. The best way for all of us to address confidence to borrow, knowing that they can pay the this issue is through wider support for the economy as a money back. That will go a long way towards solving whole. That is what was behind, first, the £30 billion of the problem. fiscal measures announced by the Chancellor at the Budget; the further announcement of the £350 billion, Steve Barclay: As I have said, the Chancellor held including £330 billion of loans, and the wider package meetings with small business leaders this morning. He is last Tuesday; and the further measures announced by having further meetings on this issue today. He is very the Chancellor on Friday. That is on top of the measures aware of the concerns raised by my right hon Friend the Bank of England has taken—for example, reducing and other Members, and we continue to work at pace base rates, and the £200 billion of bonds. A range of on this issue. measures have been taken to support the economy and to reduce that blockage, but I absolutely accept that the Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I am sorry numbers have increased, and we are reprioritising work that the Chancellor is not here, but may I ask the in the DWP to assist with that. Minister to pass on to him that the self-employed people contacting me are not wealthy individuals? They Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): are individuals such as Andrew Brown, who I raised last My rural constituency has one of the highest concentrations week—a self-employed graphic designer whose income of self-employed people in the country, so while I and has disappeared. They are taxi drivers. They are small other Conservative Members thank my right hon. Friend catering companies. Unless action is taken now for for the timely and unprecedented measures he has come these individuals, not just to relieve the hardship they forward with, I add my voice to the growing consensus are facing, their businesses will no longer be in existence. across the House for measures to be extended to the My fear is that we will generate unemployment among self-employed. these people for a long time to come.

Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend speaks with considerable Steve Barclay: I agree with the first part of that. The business and financial experience, and he will know the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the vast cash-flow issues and the challenges that many of the majority of these people. I have made that point repeatedly. businesses in his constituency face. We absolutely hear I referred earlier to the fact that the target population his message, just as we do the message from Members has different elements, but the vast majority of those across the House, and that is why we are moving at pace who are self-employed face enormous challenges. We to address them. absolutely hear that, and I accept that. On his second point, we have taken a number of measures, but we Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) recognise that more is needed. That is why my right (SNP): Further to the point I raised at Treasury questions, hon. Friend the Chancellor is meeting leaders on this which was echoed by the shadow Chancellor, the newly issue today to look at what further measures we can under-employed must be supported further. One of my bring forward. constituents is a self-employed taxi driver with no work, due to the lockdown. His wife and four children have Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): May I say that I do underlying health conditions. Any universal credit understand that this is difficult? If it were easy, the application would mean their tax credit ceasing. A Chancellor would have announced it last Friday with jobseeker’s allowance application would mean having the rest of the package. The self-employed people I to prove that they are seeking work and engaging with represent just want a sign; they just want some hope 217 Self-employed Persons: 24 MARCH 2020 Self-employed Persons: 218 Financial Support Financial Support [Steve Brine] Steve Barclay: As the hon. Gentleman’s earlier question in Treasury questions suggested, that is not the sole and an indication. I think they have had that today consideration. It is a question of what the operational from the Chief Secretary and the Chancellor, but may I delivery issues may be: for example, we do not hold make a suggestion? For self-employed people and all details of people’s bank accounts, so how would we do other people right now, if they cannot get the same in, it? It is how we roll this out, but we recognise his wider they have to send less out. The Government worked point that there are immediate issues for manyself-employed magic last week with the mortgage companies, which people. That is what we are actively working on, and seem to be falling over themselves to offer mortgage that is what my right hon Friend the Chancellor is holidays, but all the other fixed costs that our constituents engaged on in further meetings today. As I said in my face—utilities; insurance premiums; car finance; council previous answer, we hope to bring proposals forward in tax bills, which landed on the doorstep last week; and the coming days. even, for some, a business improvement district levy due next week—are still there. I wonder whether there is Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): My something the Minister can take back to the Treasury, right hon. Friend mentioned earlier the business interruption perhaps with help from the shadow Chancellor, on loan scheme. Will he confirm that all self-employed those sorts of fixed costs, because they are dragging people people will have access to it and that they will not have down at a time when they have a lot less coming in. to give personal guarantees? Will the Government widen Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right that there is a the scheme to include institutions such as OakNorth range of costs. As I say, we are looking as part of our and Aldermore, which are currently excluded from support at what action can be taken. He can see, as an eligibility? illustration of that, the action that has been taken on mortgages and in support of renters—both for mortgage Steve Barclay: We are looking into that, but it is holders directly and in terms of the buy-to-let market. available as of now. It goes up to £5 million and my Measures have been taken, but we stand ready to look understanding is that it does not require personal at further measures. guarantees. If it is any different, I will come back to him on that point. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The local economy in Brighton and Hove is overwhelmingly dependent on the self-employed, so I cannot overstate Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): A how urgent it is that we have action on this. I do not constituent in East Fife runs a mobile catering business, know whether the Minister gave a deadline when he providing a service to both private and public events spoke to his colleague earlier, but if he did not, will he such as festivals. Having no fixed premises means that please tell us that we will have action by the end of the they will not benefit from the support announced so far, week? Universal credit is not a fair option for many and the relaxation of planning rules that other food freelancers, because it means they have to delve into outlets can benefit from to do home deliveries is also an savings that they have put aside because they do not issue. They are also struggling, like many others, to have pensions. We are going to push them into greater access business interruption insurance. The independent insecurity right now if we cause them to have to rely on mobile catering sector could be utilised to support and that instead. provide sustenance for our key workers.What amendments to the measures will the Chief Secretary consider to Steve Barclay: As I said in my opening statement, the support that critical sector? Chancellor is meeting on this today and we hope to bring forward proposals in the coming days. Steve Barclay: I know that my right hon. Friend the Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I welcome Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural that the Treasury is working hard on supporting the Affairs is looking at a range of options in terms of how self-employed. We must remember that these are local we adapt to the change of circumstances. For example, freelancers. They are mobile hairdressers, childminders, many pubs and restaurants had significant food orders, freelance driving instructors, photographers, musicians, so we are looking at what can be done there. There is IT consultants and home-based travel agents. They food that would have been exported previously, but that have lost all their income. Can the Minister confirm may now be difficult, so there is a range of measures in that the package for the self-employed, freelancers and terms of the food supply within which mobile caterers sole traders will be announced by the end of the week? will have a role. I know that my right hon. Friend is looking at those issues. Steve Barclay: I refer to the answer I gave a moment ago. We are actively looking at this and we hope to bring forward proposals in the coming days. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): In my constituency I have a large number of families where one partner Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The way around works in the national health service and the other is the problem that the Minister, and the Chancellor before self-employed. The children have been sent home from him, identified of giving money to people who do not school and there is no one to look after them, because if need it was given to him by the right hon. Member for the self-employed parent does not work, they do not get Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey). The money paid. Can my right hon. Friend look urgently at a can be recovered later. Do not let that concern about a scheme? Also and specifically, council tax bills are due handful of people get in the way of putting the scheme on 1 April—next week—and people are worried, in place and deny desperate people, who cannot put particularly in London, about how they will be able to food on the table, money they need right now. pay. Can council tax bills be suspended? 219 Self-employed Persons: 24 MARCH 2020 Self-employed Persons: 220 Financial Support Financial Support Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend will recall that the that the Chancellor says that they can pay for it soon is Budget included targeted action specifically on council not going to get them their shopping, so how soon can tax, with a £0.5 billion package to allow targeted support we give that certainty? on council tax. I think he is drawing his attention to a slightly wider issue of concern, particularly where one Steve Barclay: We hope to bring forward proposals in member of a household works in the NHS as a key the coming days. I absolutely appreciate the concern worker and one is at home, but of course that draws that the hon. Gentleman is quite rightly raising for his attention to the fact that this is a complex scheme that constituents. This does not address his specific question we are seeking to design. Those are the sort of issues we but, in part, that is why we have been strengthening the are working through. safety net of the welfare system, and why the main measures we have taken are to support the economy as a Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): I have so many whole.Thatisthebestwaytogetviablebusinesses,including self-employed workers in my constituency, including the self-employed, back and earning money once we more than 1,000 taxi and private hire drivers. They will have dealt with the health emergency. We are looking at understand from what has been said this morning that the specific issue of the self-employed, and we intend to the Government have good intentions, but they will bring forward proposals in the coming days. respond to me that good intentions do not pay their bills. Given that there will be a lag with the new system Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): While coming in, what more can the Government do in the many of our supermarket shelves are empty at times, a meantime, through offsetting tax bills and also encouraging food source currently going to waste is fish. Most of banks to be more generous with free overdraft facilities our fishermen are self-employed, but they have seen to help families through this? Let us not forget that we their markets collapse, because pubs and restaurants all bailed out the banks when they needed it, so maybe are closed and overseas markets are closed to them. Will it is time for them to do something now. we look for a bespoke package to support our fishermen through this time and, in particular, to find ways to get Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman is right in terms their fish sold to people who could buy it to feed their of the role of the banks, and a clear message has been families? sent by the Bank of England Governor about the Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend makes an important importance of banks showing forbearance at this time. point, and one that the Secretary of State for Environment, That applies to things such as credit card debts, but also Food and Rural Affairs is aware of. I am sure that he he will be aware that, for example, for many of his will be happy to have further discussions with him in constituents in a London constituency, their rent is a the coming days. My hon. Friend is right, the pub and significant issue, as well as the measures we have taken restaurant trade having collapsed, there is not only food on mortgages. We have looked at what we can do to that would have been provided to them, but capacity in assist on some of those fixed costs, but the banks have our fishing catch, because of the quota rules. had a clear message from the Governor about the need to show forbearance. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I know that the Minister has been sent out with a new three-word Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I commend slogan from the Government’s three-word slogan unit, those on the Treasury Bench for the calm way they are namely, “Help is coming”, but may I remind him that dealing with this unprecedented situation, but clearly the previous one was, “Whatever it takes”? That is what something needs to be done for the self-employed. One the Government pledged, and it should apply to self- of my constituents has made three points. First, they employed people too. He just said that, in the coming will be disadvantaged because they will not get the days, there will be some further clarity. There is fear topping up that an employer might give an employee. across the House that we might not sit next week, and Secondly, there will not necessarily be an immediate that the Government may be getting to the point where return to work, and finally seasonality may affect their they do not have to come back to the House to account income, which of course it would not for an employee. for what they are doing for the self-employed. What Will those three very good points be taken into account assurance will he give us that whatever “Help is coming”, by those on the Treasury Bench? it will constitute “Whatever it takes”and will be equivalent to what is being offered to employed people? Steve Barclay: They are good points, and again they Steve Barclay: I am very happy to make it a six-word draw attention to the conflict between simplicity and slogan, if the hon. Gentleman prefers: “Help is coming”, addressing the various specific issues that Members and we will do, “Whatever it takes”. As to whether the have raised. One of those is seasonality, which obviously House will sit, that is not an issue for the Government, has an impact. That is why the design of the scheme is as he well knows as an experienced Member of the more complex than perhaps meets the eye, but we are House. Whether the House sits—whether Ministers are looking at the issues and we intend to bring forward called to answer questions—is a matter for the Chair, proposals in the coming days. and not for Ministers. In fact, we had an urgent question last week, and we have one here, so that suggests that Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): Like many other Mr Speaker is keen to ensure, quite properly, that Members, I have been contacted by many self-employed Ministers are held to account. people in my constituency who are welcoming of the support already offered, but in need of the absolute Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) guarantee about what is still to come and quickly. (Con): Many self-employed have already taken the right Going into the shop to buy essential groceries for decision and socially distanced themselves—the hairdressers feeding their family and telling the checkout supervisor who have not gone into care homes, the taxi drivers, the 221 Self-employed Persons: 24 MARCH 2020 222 Financial Support [Caroline Nokes] British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help to Return Home driving instructors—but they are looking for some reassurance from my right hon. Friend that they have done the right thing and will not be penalised for it. 1.21 pm

Steve Barclay: Again, that is quite right in terms of Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) the self-employed, which includes many hairdressers, (Con) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State but my right hon. Friend will also be aware of measures for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make we have already taken—they will support many hairdressing a statement on what measures he plans to introduce to businesses—such as the business rate relief and the assist British citizens abroad to return home. grants. The £10,000 grants targeted at the 700,000 smaller The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth businesses are, again, part of the package of measures Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): I to apply to some of that population. However, it is clear thank my right hon. Friend for her question. We have from many of the questions that populations are not FCO staff in all our 280 posts in 168 countries and 10 tightly set, and that there is a degree of overlap and overseas territories, and they are working round the underlap, which is what we are working through. clock to respond to this global pandemic. Over the last three days, we have seen 80 countries place restrictions Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Many farmers are on their borders. That situation is unprecedented in self-employed, often on family farms, with a husband scale, and our overriding priority now is to assist the and wife team, or a son or daughter. The Minister and thousands of British travellers who need and want to others in the House will know that lambing is taking return home, bearing in mind the hundreds of thousands place now, and the first lambs will be sold in July, but of UK nationals who may be travelling at any point in the prices for lambs and beef cattle are the lowest they time. have ever been. What help will the Minister and Government Following last week’s decision to advise against all give to farmers who face financial ruin at this time? but essential travel globally, last night I changed our travel advice again because of the rate of new border Steve Barclay: As I see from the farmers in my own restrictions. We strongly advise British people who are constituency, there is considerable demand from for currently travelling abroad who live in the UK to return UK-produced food. I am very happy to continue to as soon as possible, where they are still able to because work with the hon. Gentleman, and we have often had commercial routes are still running. Where commercial conversations about farming issues in the past. I am options are limited or prevented by domestic restrictions, happy to continue those conversations, alongside those we are in close contact with the airlines and local with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and authorities in those countries to overcome those barriers Rural Affairs, about how we support our farmers, but I to enable people to return home. With my ministerial think their products will be in great demand moving team, and indeed across the diplomatic network, we are forward. engaging with numerous Governments to keep commercial routes open, particularly in transit hubs. The Department Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): for Transport is working closely with airlines to ensure May we please have further clarity on how builders, that travellers can rebook or find alternative routes plumbers, electricians and plasterers should be conducting home. themselves at work or, indeed, whether they should be I know that hon. Members in all parts of the House at work at all? There seems to be some confusion as to will have had constituents contact them in relation to whether they should be on site or in premises. A leading particular countries, so with your forbearance, Mr Speaker, builders merchant contacted me this morning to say I will update the House on just a few of those countries. that it had to shut up shop because it feared that the I spoke to the Peruvian Foreign Minister at the weekend, collection of the builders outside its premises were and we have agreed special arrangements for flights to failing to socially isolate, and it was concerned about return British nationals later this week and for Peruvian what that would mean. It seems that there has been nationals to get back to Peru. I spoke to the Singaporean some confusion over the past 24 hours, so I wonder Foreign Minister this morning, and we have agreed to whether the Minister can clarify the advice for those work together to help those stranded to get back to crucial people. their homes in the UK. Given Singapore’s role as a transit hub, this commitment to work with us to enable Steve Barclay: I am very happy to draw my right hon. UK nationals to transit via Singapore is particularly Friend’s concerns to the attention of the Secretary of important, not least for those currently in Australia or State for Health and Social Care so that precise medical New Zealand. In New Zealand, the high commission is guidance can be given to address the concern he raises. working with airlines,airports and, indeed, the Government to keep flight routes open and to reopen some that have Several hon. Members rose— closed. In Australia, the high commission is doing the same. It has also opened a register of British nationals Mr Speaker: I am sorry that we have to come to an hoping to return to the UK and is supporting British end. There will be disappointment, but if we had helped nationals via phone calls and walk-in appointments at each other, nobody would have missed out. the high commission, as well as updating social media pages. For those trying to get home in other countries, we are providing as much practical advice as is physically possible. We would first advise all travellers to take a 223 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 224 to Return Home to Return Home look at the travel advice online, which is the best and must get the process fully under way. The vision of most comprehensive source of information and is updated British citizens sleeping rough on the streets of Caracas in real time. If people are in need of urgent assistance, is not a good one. they should call our embassies and high commissions. They will be automatically connected to our consular Dominic Raab: I thank my right hon. Friend for her contact centres, the global centres based in Malaga and question. In relation to embassies, she said that they Ottawa—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Glasgow have been closed, but actually, a very small number of East (David Linden) will allow me. We know that there posts have had to be closed. What we have found—this has been considerable pressure because of the restrictions is not a choice that the Foreign and Commonwealth being placed in countries around the world and the rate Office has made; it is a direct result of the restrictions at which that has been done, with either limited or no that have been put in place by Governments in those notice. We doubled our capacity. We are now doubling countries—is that they have had to work remotely, and it again to deal with the surge in demand. We are indeed, a large chunk of the consular staff work from helping to reduce travel costs by encouraging airlines to home. That is not a decision that we made—it was have maximum flexibility on changing return tickets. forced upon us—but I reassure her that in all the Where people are in real need, our consular teams will jurisdictions that she mentioned, we are trying to respond work with them to consider their options. As a last to what I hope she will understand, given her experience, resort, we offer an emergency loan. is an incredibly fluid situation. Some of these restrictions More broadly,the United Kingdom is working alongside are being imposed with no notice or limited notice, and our international partners to deliver our international that is very difficult, of course, for our constituents, but strategy, which rests on four key tenets: to provide we are making sure that we provide them with as much resilience to the most vulnerable countries; to pursue a advice and support in real time as we can. vaccine; to keep vital trade routes and supply chains for My right hon. Friend mentioned Peru. As a result of foodstuff, medicines and other things open; and to the work of the FCO, and having spoken to the Peruvian provide reciprocal support for the return of our nationals Foreign Minister, we now have agreement for flights to who otherwise are at risk of being stranded. These are come out of Peru. There is, of course, a challenge the right priorities. We are working day and night to because not everyone is based in Lima, which has the keep British people safe at home and abroad. international airport, so we also have to try to work out how we get UK nationals travelling in more remote parts of the country to the capital. We are actively Caroline Nokes: There is an MPs’ helpline that rings working on that. We have several flights lined up, but we with no answer. Emails are acknowledged but not replied also need to work around or try to overcome the to. Embassies are closed, with staff flown home days restrictions that have been imposed. ago and doors shut to our travellers. Guidance was I hope I have explained what we are doing in Australia issued by the Foreign Office yesterday advising British and New Zealand. My right hon. Friend is right, and I tourists to return to the UK where commercial flights thank her for her remarks, about the critical importance are available, but they are not available. They are either of keeping the international hubs open, and not just in banned entirely, are trying to transit via countries where relation to Singapore. We are concerned about other no layovers are permitted, or are priced at tens of international hub airports. We must try to keep those thousands of pounds and via airports that are expected open. Tomorrow, I will lead the discussion among the to close imminently. G7 Foreign Ministers on this and our wider international What help exactly is my right hon. Friend’s global strategy for tackling coronavirus. This is extremely difficult. network offering? He knows that the situation is dire, We have hundreds of thousands of British nationals but he knew that last week when he stated in this House abroad, but I can reassure her that, from the call centre that to the support they are receiving at post, we are doing everything we can to give them as much support as “we will look and liaise with the airline operators…to make sure that, where there are gaps, we can always provide as much support swiftly as possible. as possible for vulnerable or stranded constituents.”—[Official Report, 17 March 2020; Vol. 673, c. 809.] Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I thank you, There are gaps. My constituents stranded in Argentina, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question, and I Honduras, Venezuela, Australia, New Zealand, India, thank the right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton Peru and Egypt have much in common: an inability to North (Caroline Nokes) for securing it. This is a medical get through to consular services on the phone, a standard crisis, not a wartime one, but she certainly gave the acknowledgement email telling them to contact their Foreign Secretary some friendly fire, and she spoke for tour operator, airline or insurer, and an increasing us all in the concerns she expressed for the hundreds of inability to find accommodation. Hotels are shutting, thousands of British nationals stranded overseas. flights are cancelled, borders are closed and there are no Since the House last discussed these issues, we have routes home. Many are hours away from large airports seen some progress, especially in the planned provision in countries operating curfews. Those in Australia and of repatriation flights for British nationals stranded in New Zealand are looking for routes via Singapore, so I Peru, and I thank the Foreign Office for its work on welcome the comments my right hon. Friend made that, but as today’s media coverage shows—indeed, as is about working with Singaporean allies, but to them, it shown by the dozens of emails, calls and letters that looks like his words of last week were empty. I ask him Members from all parties are receiving from Indonesia, today, as I asked him last week, to explain how he is New Zealand, Morocco and Pakistan, where I understand working with airlines with unused planes parked at no outbound flights are now available—this is not a airports around the globe to bring our people home. He crisis that can be resolved one traveller, one airline, or 225 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 226 to Return Home to Return Home [Barry Gardiner] The hon. Gentleman mentioned Morocco in particular. We have facilitated the return of thousands of British indeed one country at a time. It is a crisis affecting nationals via commercial routes, with 49 commercial British nationals in every continent, many of them flights bringing 8,500 passengers home—in fact, it is accompanied by young children, many of them with even more than that now. worsening health conditions, and many of them running The hon. Gentleman is right that we cannot do it out of money and in danger of losing their accommodation. alone, which is why I am spending any moment that I They are all in desperate need of reassurance from am not in this House talking to Members hitting the the Government, so I hope the Secretary of State will phones, talking to Foreign Ministers and working our take the chance today to clarify the statement he made way through the problems. Wehave talked to the Peruvian yesterday, which was reported across the media as an Foreign Minister, as I mentioned, and I spoke to the instruction to British nationals abroad—indeed, this is Singaporean Foreign Minister first thing this morning. a direct quote from him—to The hon. Gentleman rightly raised the issue of “come home…now while you still can.” accommodation, because where people are travelling Despite the headlines, the Secretary of State obviously for two to three weeks, that is ultimately the issue for meant that for individuals who have the option of them. In Spain, where a large number of Britain nationals taking a commercial flight to Britain, but does he are holidaying, the original Government decision in accept that that is now very much the exception, not the Madrid was to close all hotels today. I spoke to the norm, and that for hundreds of thousands of British Foreign Minister of Spain and we secured the flexibility nationals the option he highlighted is simply no option whereby they would not be kicked out on to the streets, at all? Will he make it absolutely clear that the Government as the hon. Gentleman suggested. We have also secured remain committed to helping all British nationals; that flexibility to ensure that the airlines can come in and, embassies will have telephone lines available so that given the large number of Brits in Spain, we can secure they can get the support and advice that they need, those flights home. On the detail of the travel advice to whenever they need it; that the Government will find a which he referred, we have given that advice based on flight to get them home, no matter how long it takes; the rapid rate of new restrictions that Governments and and that they will be guaranteed continued accommodation jurisdictions are placing, sometimes on internal travel, in the meantime? which will inhibit people’s ability to get to the airport, but more often on external flights coming in and out. Does the Secretary of State have a plan to ensure the The hon. Gentleman also asked, rightly, about cruise safe care and medical assessment of British cruise line ships. To the best of my understanding, on the basis of passengers and their current health assessment? Is he advice from the Department for Transport, no further negotiating with countries to ensure their safety during cruise ships are hitting the water, so we are dealing with quarantine? Is he arranging safe travel home for all who the stock of existing ships. We have successfully returned are stranded? How is he keeping in touch with worried 684 people, including 669 British nationals, from the citizens abroad and their families here in the UK? Braemar cruise ship, which was in the Caribbean, struggling What discussions has the Secretary of State had with to find a port of entry. We did that via Cuba. That is a his foreign counterparts about the extension of visas, good example of reaching out to—[Interruption.] I which may expire during the lockdown in other countries? thought that would get the Leader of the Opposition What action is he taking on airlines to stop the profiteering excited. that is going on, with inflated prices for flights home? In other words, will he send a simple message to those Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): You did say it. British nationals stranded overseas: “You are not in the last chance saloon; you are in safe hands, and this Dominic Raab: I am happy to say that we work with Government will get you home”? all our partners across the world; we would not allow dogma to get in the way of securing the rights of British nationals. I am proud that we have that flexibility and I Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman makes some am grateful to the Cuban Foreign Minister for arranging important points, and we certainly want to give as much it. We also had close to 3,000 British nationals on the reassurance and as much advice as possible, but he will Azura, docked in Bridgetown, and they arrived back in know—he has worked on the international brief for a the UK over the weekend without incident. We had 355 while—that we have in this country a great tradition of British nationals on the Norwegian Spirit, and they travelling abroad, and that even if we take expats out of took a flight back to the UK on 23 March. That is the the equation we are talking about hundreds of thousands progress we have made, but the hon. Gentleman is right of people at any one time. Given the national restrictions to highlight cruise ships that were travelling after we that are being imposed, at pace and sometimes without changed the travel advice for such ships. We have a notice, it is very difficult to give cast-iron guarantees specific eye and focus on making sure that Brits on about the situation. What we can do is lead internationally, board those cruise ships get back safe and sound. in the way I described, with the G7, which we are doing tomorrow, and work as hard as we can with all our Several hon. Members rose— international partners. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the progress in securing Mr Speaker: Let me help the House by saying that I the return home of UK nationals; I can tell him that we am thinking of running this until 2.15 pm. have already repatriated more than 1,000 British nationals, and also 254 non-British nationals, where we have had Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I thank capacity,from 26 countries—places as far-flung as Wuhan my right hon. Friend for the progress he has announced over to Cuba. on the Peru cases, and thank him and his team for the 227 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 228 to Return Home to Return Home discussions we had last week about the need for a Can the FCO commit to providing clarity about the repatriation plan for my young constituents who have situation directly to UK citizens abroad who are worried been stranded there. Given that so many of us across and isolated, and about support for returning home, or the House have numerous constituents stranded in different support from UK embassies to get accommodation and countries and given the problems they are all facing in access to healthcare that they need, should that not be getting timely, correct information from embassies and possible? I strongly urge the Foreign Secretary to support consulates, will he impress on all the ambassadors and citizens to get home, whatever it takes. In addition to high commissioners in these countries that we expect our own citizens, will he commit to ensuring that all them to be leading the effort? Weunderstand the constraints foreign nationals living in the UK will be treated with that the embassy staff are under in these countries, but compassion and flexibility should they find themselves we are expecting the people at the top of these organisations in need of essential treatment and care in this country, to be leading from the front and helping to put together particularly if they are not able to imminently return plans for all British citizens stranded overseas. home? Will he pass on the Government’s support to concerned embassies that are trying to look out for their citizens? Dominic Raab: I thank my right hon. Friend for that. He is absolutely right in what he says. I can reassure him that every one of our networks takes this incredibly Dominic Raab: The first thing to say is that we have seriously. The ambassadors and high commissioners are all had constituents contact us to say that they feel apprised of their leadership role in securing the return vulnerable or are stranded, and I think we all understand of UK nationals or otherwise protecting them as best how anxious people are in that situation. The No. 1 we can. I say honestly to the House that there has been a thing we want to do is provide some certainty. That challenge because of the spike in calls—I have been starts with the point of contact, which is why I mentioned absolutely straightforward with the House on that—and the call centre. It also relates to the missions. There have we have doubled the capacity and we are looking to been some mistaken, if not outright flawed, suggestions double it again. We want to make sure that that first that embassies or high commissions have closed. The point of contact—the pastoral care that the consular buildings may have been restricted because of the measures officers provide—is there, and then further detail, the taken by domestic Governments and local authorities, technical advice, can be provided. He mentioned Peru but those embassies and missions—with a very small and I can tell him that the first flight has capacity for number of exceptions, all of which are subsidiary missions about 200 passengers. Obviously we would want to —are all open for business, with people having to work prioritise the most vulnerable. He mentioned his remotely. constituents. We will have a final manifest shortly, before The hon. Gentleman mentioned the cost of flights. the flight departs tomorrow. Given the numbers in Peru We are working closely with airlines and travel companies and, as I mentioned, the issue of the remoteness of to ensure that as many people as possible can get some of them from Lima, the capital, and the airport, commercial flights home in a rapidly changing and we are, of course, going to have more flights. We hope fluid situation, and we are encouraging airlines to be as to confirm the details of all that in due course. I can flexible as possible when people have to change their also tell him that 1,000 UK nationals have registered return flight. with our embassy in Lima, so although there is this idea The hon. Gentleman asked about Australia and New that we have not got a system in place in Peru, we have Zealand. I have set out in some detail the support that is actually responded very swiftly. being provided, but given the new restrictions that the Governments have introduced and the question hanging Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) over transit hubs, I appreciate that there is acute concern (SNP): Since the right hon. Member for Romsey and for people there. We have had to rapidly respond to Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) left Government, that. I have given information to the House on what I find myself agreeing with her on a regular basis, and I Australia is doing. The high commission is open. UK commend her for securing this urgent question. nationals abroad can call the embassy or register their details. I have an email here about how that can be As with everything else at the moment, I appreciate done, which I can give to Members on both sides of the that this is a challenging and fast-moving situation, but House. I can tell the House that more than 1,700 British we all have constituents stranded abroad who are worried nationals have registered their interest. In relation to sick about being able to get home, many of whom have New Zealand, in addition to the work being done, we no further funds to support their continued stay if that are—as I think I mentioned in my opening remarks— were to prove impossible. Many of us have constituents working to find accommodation for those who want to stranded in Peru, and I am grateful for the Government’s know that they at least have a place to stay, if they commitment on that. I have constituents stranded in cannot get a commercial flight out. Australia and New Zealand who have made every effort, as the Foreign Secretary has asked, to get home but have been blocked by cancelled flights, internal travel Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I have a number of restrictions and international travel bans. Two of them constituents who are key workers, including in the are NHS doctors, and some of them have health issues, NHS. What specific support can the Foreign Office including asthma and a chronic respiratory condition, offer to ensure that those individuals can come back, so and are running low on medicines. I am sorry to say that they can support the efforts against covid-19? this, because I know that the service is hard-pressed, as the Foreign Secretary outlined, but they have all Dominic Raab: We are providing support right across been particularly scathing about the lack of consular the board. If there are key workers abroad, that just support available. highlights the imperative of getting people back. I have 229 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 230 to Return Home to Return Home [Dominic Raab] Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): As others have said, the reality on the ground does not correspond to to say to my hon. Friend that we are prioritising the the picture being painted by the Foreign Secretary. I most vulnerable, but where we can get commercial have constituents stuck abroad and I am particularly flights out of those jurisdictions, we are looking to have worried for David and Ann Watts, who are stuck in the enough capacity to get all of them out. I hope that that Dominican Republic after British Airways cancelled provides him and his constituents with some reassurance. their flight. He has serious health conditions and has run out of medication. Flights are available from the Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I understand what the Dominican Republic to European Union destinations, Foreign Secretary is saying about embassies and consulates but they have been told at the airport that there is no being open, but the reality is that, when constituents are guarantee they will be accepted into those countries, calling and calling and getting no answer, they assume which is not my understanding of the situation. Will the they are not open because they cannot get any response. Foreign Secretary speak to other European Governments May I raise Bali in particular? British news reports that and to the airlines concerned to make it clear that we 150-odd British nationals are stuck at the airport after should be mutually supporting each other to repatriate Emirates cancelled flights and said they would have to our citizens from wherever they are? stay in Bali for three months. I tried to raise that on the Foreign Office line and the covid-19 line. The covid-19 Dominic Raab: We are regularly talking to European line said nothing could be done and those people would Governments and I am speaking to my opposite numbers have to remain in Bali. Surely the Foreign Secretary in Europe and across the world on a regular basis. I will could think about commissioning a repatriation flight look into the case of the Dominican Republic. Of for all those British nationals stuck in Bali, including course, it is less well travelled than some of the other two of my constituents. routes, which is part of the challenge, but that just means we need to redouble our efforts. Dominic Raab: I am very concerned about the situation The right hon. Gentleman rightly raised the fact that in Bali. The embassy office in Bali is open and has been we will not get the hundreds of thousands of Brits stuck reinforced from Jakarta. The consular team is in direct abroad back home by just lobbying airlines or engaging contact with UK nationals there. Flight options have unilaterally on actions that we can control. I reassure obviously been curtailed in the way the hon. Member him that I will lead the conversation on behalf of the described. The Emirates route is closed, but operational UK at the G7 meeting, which will take place tomorrow routes are still available via Jakarta. remotely through virtual media, and that the four prongs of the strategy are: helping the most vulnerable countries; There are something like 6,000 British nationals in pursuing a vaccine; dealing with the economic response; Bali—that is an estimate—and in fairness 2,000 of them and, critically, ensuring that we improve international are long-term residents. We are working with London, collaboration on returning our nationals. That is true Gulf posts and the transit hubs in the way I described to for me, as it is for the Peruvian Foreign Minister—we try to free up many of those links to enable those people talked about Peruvian nationals here who want to get to get home. back home. We must ensure that we keep vital air links and, in particular, regional and international hubs open Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): The Foreign to drive that effort forward. I will lead the conversation Secretary is making efforts to rescue people abroad and for the UK in the G7 tomorrow. bring them home, but is he aware that many high commissions and embassies are simply not responding Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): It is to British people in desperate need of help? The British important that we put on record the enormous thanks Government have an absolute duty to deal with that of everyone in this House to the FCO staff who are without delay. Will he please use all the Foreign Office’s working in the crisis centre and across the country, and staff to ensure that they are there to look after people in who have brought thousands of Brits back to the UK in their hour of need? the last few weeks. Nothing matters more to Foreign Office staff than protecting British nationals, and I Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend and give him know that because I have worked at the Foreign Office this reassurance. There are only three posts that we have in this crisis. Let us remember that it is not easy. The drawn down in their entirety: Wuhan and Chongqing in Malaga team took 28,000 calls in one day a few Fridays China, which are subsidiary posts, so they can be backed ago. As Foreign Office staff, we are spat at and abused up from Beijing; N’Djamena in Chad; and Goma in the when trying to help British nationals to come home. Democratic Republic of the Congo. That was done as a These staff are working in tough situations, so I caution last resort, thinking about the situation there. We are any Member suggesting that there are easy solutions. ensuring that, in those jurisdictions I described where Will my right hon. Friend kindly reassure the public Governments have taken action, we have as much capacity, that, as he has said, when an embassy is closed it is, in albeit working remotely. We have doubled call centre fact, not closed? Will he also confirm that the safety of capacity and we are looking at doubling it again. I hope our staff is important, and commit to scrapping the I can reassure him that we are doing everything we can cost of calls to consular lines? to ensure that constituents of all Members on both sides of the House have a point of contact. Again, I Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for paying stress that posts and the Foreign Office network are tribute to consular staff and FCO teams, and the work trying to deal with an unprecedented situation in terms that they are doing, and for the general points that she of scale and the rapidity with which restrictions are has made. I can reassure her that embassies are being being imposed. kept open wherever possible in order to give British 231 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 232 to Return Home to Return Home nationals who find themselves stranded or in a vulnerable dock at Rio in order to take advantage of the onward position the support that they need, even if they cannot flights available to London. Some British nationals physically access the embassy or the high commission have already got places on board confirmed flights. We building. I can go further than that and tell her that we are doing as much as we can logistically to support have spent the last fortnight reprioritising the work of them, and to get them and the other nationals home. the Foreign Office and our missions, so that the lion’s share—all but the most essential alternative business—is Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): I have focused on the consular effort. We are limiting the 32 constituents who are stuck in eight countries—that drawdowns, in the way in which some hon. Members we know of. I am concerned that some of them are have suggested, to those that are required because of running out of money. What support might be available, vulnerability or safety, and reprioritising them to meet how should they access it and what can my caseworkers the challenge of providing the consular services that do to assist? we need. Dominic Raab: I do understand the situation in which David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I have constituents people find themselves: they planned to be abroad for a stuck in Peru, Australia, New Zealand and Spain, and I certain period of time and have run out of cash. Given just wonder whether the Foreign Secretary might be the scale, the Foreign Office cannot provide a direct able to use Members of Parliament as a way of subsidy or grant. Our priority is to try to ensure that disseminating information. Doing so might mean that people can get back home and, in extremis, if they have multiple constituents are not phoning FCO lines but run out of money, we are willing to offer temporary coming to us for information. I have to say that the loans to facilitate that situation, so we are doing everything current communication flow has not been acceptable. I that we practically and realistically can. have one constituent who is stuck in Peru, but in Cusco, not Lima. They want to get from Cusco to Lima so that they can get home. Can the Foreign Secretary try to Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Following ensure that we as Members of Parliament are involved, the question from my hon. Friend the Member for in order to take some of the load off the Foreign Office Waveney (Peter Aldous) about the Coral Princess, may and help our constituents? I urge the Foreign Secretary to check on what is happening with this vessel? The information that I had from Ken Dominic Raab: Yes. Cusco is a very good example of and Doreen Hodge on board is that they are heading the challenge in Peru, but we believe that we have the for Fort Lauderdale in the US, and they fear that they capacity.Wehave the political agreement of the Government may then be required to stay for 14 days in isolation in Peru; we just need to ensure that the military, who before coming home. Will he make a particular point of run the airport, deliver on that. In Cusco and elsewhere checking what is happening to the Coral Princess and across Peru, 1,000 UK nationals have registered with the people on board? the embassy to ensure that we are in contact with them. This is a logistical challenge, because I think—from Dominic Raab: I thank my right hon. Friend for his memory—it is at least a day’s drive from Cusco to question. I think that I have described the latest data Lima, so in all likelihood for most people the journey that I have, but, of course, we are tracking the cruise will require an additional internal flight, and we are ship in real time. It has been a challenge on that bit of working very hard to secure that. The hon. Gentleman coastline and, indeed, in that region, to get onward will know the challenges involved, but certainly the flights and to get permission to dock in order to take more that he and all hon. Members can disseminate the advantage of them. None the less, we are tracking the contact points and information about signing up for situation. I track the cruise ships in real time every day. I real-time travel advice, the better; that would be helpful. can also reassure the House that we have changed the travel advice on cruise ships, and my understanding is Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I commend the Foreign that no further cruise ships are setting sail, so we are Secretary for his statement. At present, I have constituents dealing with the stock that is at sea and making sure stuck in Bali, Peru, New Zealand and on the Coral that we do everything we can to get everyone home. I Princess. May I just highlight a couple of issues? have already explained the success that we had with the Commercial flights in New Zealand are currently collapsing Braemar, the Azura, and the Norwegian Spirit. We are like a stack of dominoes. With the Coral Princess looking to do the same for those on the Coral Princess. currently docked in Rio, it also looks as if my constituents will not be able to disembark and will be on that ship Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I for another two and a half weeks. have constituents trapped in New Zealand, Bali, the Philippines and Peru. Some have understood only the Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. message that their local embassy is closed. Others are I have addressed the situation in New Zealand at some still being told to contact their airline or their insurer, length. We are of course looking at that as a matter of when, at this point in time, the Foreign Office is the only urgency. The big thing for getting people back from place that can help them. Even in Peru, where I understand Australia and New Zealand is going to be the international that good work is taking place, my constituents are hubs; I hope that he has been reassured by the reassurances dismayed at the lack of communication on the internal that I secured from the Singaporean Foreign Minister travel arrangements that need to be made to get them to first thing this morning. My hon. Friend also asked Lima. May I urge the Foreign Secretary to look again as about the Coral Princess cruise ship. Our embassy in a matter of urgency at the quality of communication Brasilia is working with the Ministry there and the that his Department is providing to people who are cruise operator to secure permission for the ship to very, very distressed? 233 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 234 to Return Home to Return Home Dominic Raab: The hon. Lady can certainly help in May I also place on record my thanks to the Foreign that regard, because I can give her the special email Secretary, his ministerial team and his PPSs for the address that the embassy has set up to make sure that prompt attention that they gave to cases I raised last all those who need to register for flights can do so. I do week? I know from my experience as a Minister that not think that the situation is quite as dire as she everybody in our posts abroad and in the Foreign suggests; 1,000 British nationals have already registered, Office, from the heads of missions down, will be working but flights are limited. We are working to make sure their damnedest to get our people supported and home. that we have enough flights to deal not just with UK They should know that they have our support as they nationals in Lima, but, critically, with the logistical work very hard to do so. challenge of getting to Lima in time for those flights those who are not necessarily in Lima, close to the main international airport, but in other parts of the country. Dominic Raab: I thank my right hon. Friend for his question and for his championing of his constituents, James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con): I acknowledge particularly when they are in a vulnerable situation. It is the work of Foreign Office staff who have already important to pay tribute to the incredible work the helped some of my constituents return safely to this consular teams are doing. We are doing everything we country. However, I do have a constituent who is stuck can to reinforce them in terms of manpower and resources, in Bali. They are recovering from cancer and have a from call centres to posts, and they are doing an incredible hospital appointment at Addenbrooke’s on Tuesday. I job. It is not just British nationals; when I talk to my urge my right hon. Friend to press the airlines, including interlocutors around the world, I hear that even some of Emirates, to give more information to passengers who the smallest and poorer countries have nationals doing are struggling to find out whether flights exist and the same thing. Given the number of Brits travelling whether they will be taking off. abroad, the consular teams are putting in a great shift, but the reality is that we will do everything we feasibly Dominic Raab: Yes, I certainly will take on board all can to increase that capacity and provide as much help of those concerns. and support as we can to get Brits back home. I have updated the House on what we are doing in relation to Bali. Flight options are still available, but Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): Given they are decreasing hour by hour, and we are working that we are still in a transition period with the EU, can not just with the Government and the transit hubs but the Foreign Secretary clarify whether UK nationals can with the airlines to try to keep as many options available access flights operated by EU countries? I understand as possible. Of course, in a case such as the one my hon. that a number of them are operating flights and it might Friend described, we will do our utmost to get people be possible and easier to get back to the UK from on board the first available flight. European countries rather than from other continents. Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): Like many others here, I have a number of constituents Dominic Raab: In general, nothing in the transition trapped abroad, including a group from St Andrew’s period regime is hampering the repatriation effort. Indeed, University who are currently trapped on the Honduran the hon. Gentleman is right to say that, given the island of Utila with no medical services. I was advised number of Brits in European countries, we also have last night by the FCO that commercial flights from more airline capacity coming back. It is probably easier Australia and New Zealand were still available, but with to pick up the phone to some of our European colleagues, worldwide hubs closing, that simply is not the case. who we know very well. The key thing is the bilateral Although I appreciate that this is challenging, and I am dialogue: the calls I am making, and those that our grateful for the update, I probably expected a bigger list. embassies and junior Ministers are making hour by People contact their MP when they have no other hour—not even day by day—to cover all the particular options, so what measures are in place to ensure that the circumstances. The biggest problem is perhaps not some info that we are given as MPs is accurate and up-to-date of the cases we all know about, such as people in Spain and that we are not causing unnecessary distress to and Peru. Once we are on the case we can put a plan in people at this time? place to get those nationals home. What catches out both British nationals and missions abroad is the fast- Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Lady and greatly changing situation in smaller jurisdictions or those to appreciate the way in which she approached her question. which people travel less. Junior Ministers, and I as Foreign Secretary, are always available to provide as much detail as possible. We can always be contacted via our Parliamentary Private Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The Italian-owned Secretaries. We are aware of the particular situation company Costa Crociere has a number of cruise ships with the St Andrews group and we are in touch with the in and around the Mediterranean, in particular the university about them. We have also made the Honduran Costa Victoria, which has literally hundreds of UK authorities aware of their situation, so I hope I can citizens on board. Unbelievably, they are going full reassure her that that has not slipped off the radar for steam ahead to dock at Venice. Of course, everyone on either the Foreign Office or Ministers, and that we are board is concerned about how they will get home from doing everything we can to cater for them and for the Venice, whether they will be admitted to Venice, and others who are in Honduras. whether they will be infected with coronavirus as a result. Will my right hon. Friend make representations Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I have a to ensure that these ships dock not in Italian waters but number of constituents abroad in difficulties, and that in other countries that will offer a safe haven and the number is increasing as the travel situation gets worse. chance to get home? 235 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 236 to Return Home to Return Home Dominic Raab: I shall certainly look into that particular Secondly, there is the exploitative nature of some airlines. case. The key thing for all cruise ships right now is to The cost to leave Australia with Qatar Airways has find a port of call where they can dock safely and to get ramped up to 10,000 Australian dollars. Will the Foreign those people a cordoned corridor to a repatriation Secretary condemn that practice and take those sorts of flight as soon as possible. That has tended to be the practices up with airline companies? basic two-point mechanism that has worked in getting British nationals back home, but I shall certainly look Dominic Raab: First, I thank the hon. Gentleman for into that case. the tribute he paid to FCO staff. I can tell him that we are constantly talking to the airlines about limiting the Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I also have additional cost expense put on travellers. Of course, constituents stranded in Vietnam, Australia, Bolivia the airlines are under acute pressure right now, with the and Costa Rica, but I want to ask about the travel number of jurisdictions to which they can fly limited. advice the right hon. Gentleman issued yesterday. Where The high commission has set out the details so that UK citizens abroad have an underlying health condition people who are concerned can register so that they can and feel it would be better not to travel home and are be informed about the flights that will be organised to able to stay, perhaps because they are with family, for take them home. We have more than 1,700 British example, does his advice potentially invalidate their nationals who have already registered. That works, so insurance if they choose to stay and subsequently the key thing is to disseminate those contact details. If become ill? he needs them, I am happy to provide them.

Dominic Raab: I cannot comment on individual cases, Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I thank the but I understand exactly the hon. Gentleman’s concern. Foreign Office team for their help in getting constituents That is why, when we have changed travel advice, we home from Vietnam and Morocco. A couple of young have always said that people have to take into account constituents of mine have just made it safely to Lima the circumstances and look at the pros and cons of for their flight home later this week, but I still have staying put if they have accommodation, financial resilience constituents stranded in Mauritius, India, Australia, and medical support, as opposed to returning home, Bali and New Zealand. Will the Foreign Secretary and depending on how quickly and easily that will be to do. all his team continue to work hour by hour through the Of all the various things I can do, I do not want to give night to secure the airline capacity we need to get those medical advice. constituents home? In terms of insurance, the standard terms of insurance tend to follow the travel advice rather than the other Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, way around. What we cannot do—there are legal reasons and I thank him for his kind words. With the effort to for this—is base our decisions on anything other than get people out of Morocco, where we have worked with the risks to British nationals abroad. the airlines in what was a model and template for the future, we managed to get 8,500-plus passengers back Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): I put on record home. We will seek to replicate that in all the jurisdictions my thanks to Foreign Office staff in the UK and around he has mentioned. the world, as well as the FCO team, who are doing an incredible job in very difficult circumstances.I am reassured by what my right hon. Friend has said about the John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I have been contacted by conversations he and his team are having with other constituents stuck in India and Pakistan because of the Foreign Ministers around the world. Is there more we closure of the airports there, but all around the world can do not only through the G7, but the G20, which has thousands of planes and pilots are underemployed or, a number of key transit hubs within its membership? indeed, even laid off. Is there not a real role for Government to mobilise the aviation industry and the airports and, Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend, first, for the indeed, to co-operate with those other Governments to credit he has given to the consular team at the Foreign actually get the airlift working to bring our people Office, but also for raising the point of the G20. We also home? have a G20 leaders meeting, which will be virtual and remote, coming up. It is critically important that we Dominic Raab: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely make sure we work not only with the G7, the G20 and right. The Transport Secretary is already engaged in within the EU, but with all international forums, not those discussions with individual airlines. There is a least because of the broader range of countries involved practical, legal question of whether those airlines can and the ability as a result to secure routes back via hub get into the relevant countries and jurisdictions, and routes and, in particular, transit routes. I have mentioned that is why I will be raising the matter at G7 level Singapore, but there are many others we can talk about, tomorrow. particularly in the Gulf. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The Foreign Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): I thank Secretary has mentioned thousands, and in one reply he the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretaries, said that hundreds of thousands of UK citizens are who have been enormously helpful. He may be aware currently abroad. Could he provide the House with a that in Australia, British embassy officials are telling more definitive estimate of the number of UK citizens people to contact their Members of Parliament, so abroad? He will recall that last week I pressed him on there are two things I ask him to raise. First, the travel the use of the Royal Air Force in extremis. What further insurance companies are providing no help and are discussions has he had with Defence Ministers on deploying refusing assistance to people who have been stuck abroad. the RAF when required? 237 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 238 to Return Home to Return Home Dominic Raab: We do not regularly have a register of countries to have a flight coming home, on the current UK nationals travelling abroad. I checked in response projection. In relation to Brazil, of course we will be to his earlier question, and we are obviously engaged working actively, as we are in all the South American with the Ministry of Defence, but the approach we are countries where we are particularly concerned about taking is to keep as many commercial routes open as the restrictions put in place, to get British nationals— possible. We have already arranged or worked with our including his vulnerable constituent, who I understand international partners to charter flights in extremis. has a particular medical condition—back home as soon That is the surest way to get home the number of people as possible. who are currently travelling as opposed to being resident abroad. The range is in the hundreds of thousands, so Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): we are talking of a scale that is unprecedented. I thank the Foreign Secretary for all the work he is doing in returning Wolverhampton residents back home. Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): Countries such as Australia, I have two major concerns in relation to India and New Zealand and Peru have not only closed their Pakistan. I have people there with medical conditions international borders, but are considering imposing internal who cannot get the medication they need and cannot travel restrictions. Under such circumstances, can the return home. Will he do everything in his power to Foreign Secretary reassure us that UK nationals who return my constituents back to Wolverhampton? find themselves under lockdown will be supported to get from remote towns and villages to the main transport Dominic Raab: Yes, I certainly will. I understand the hubs? difficult situation that my hon. Friend’s constituents find themselves in. India and Pakistan have had logistical Dominic Raab: In relation to Australia and Peru, challenges that are separate from the ones I have mentioned there is a possibility of commercial flights, but of course in the House, but I assure him that we are well aware of they are limited. The reason that there is a possibility is the particular challenges, and we are working day and that we have been working closely with those Governments night to try to overcome them. and the airlines to make sure that there is a link out for UK nationals to avoid their being stranded. We are Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): My constituent doing the same with New Zealand, and we will continue Dean Lawson is stuck in New Zealand. He is hoping to to put our shoulder to the wheel to get all those people, come back through Australia, but that has not been who might otherwise remain vulnerable or stranded, confirmed. The Secretary of State has mentioned that back home. Singapore was a hub on the way home. I am not here to embarrass anybody, but I understand, as of an hour Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I thank my right ago, that Singapore is no longer an option. If it is not an hon. Friend for all he is doing. Like other colleagues, I option, may I ask him what happens with those people have constituents all around the world, but the bulk are who cannot go to Singapore? Where do they go? in Spain. Will he tell the House exactly how we will get them home as soon as possible? Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman is certainly right Dominic Raab: In relation to Spain, where we have that the Singaporeans have introduced fresh restrictions. probably one of the largest numbers of UK nationals That is why at 8 o’clock this morning I was on the travelling and resident abroad, my hon. Friend will phone to the Singaporean Foreign Minister. We talked know that all sorts of domestic restrictions have been about the need to act reciprocally, and the understanding put in place, as has been the case across Europe. There was very clear that we would work together to make are also restrictions on travel in and out, and indeed sure British nationals can get back via Singapore—not there was an announcement that it would close the just those travelling in Singapore but those who use it as hotels, which was due to take effect today. I have spoken a transit hub. to the Spanish Foreign Minister to make it clear that, as we pursue that effort with the commercial airlines to get Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I have a couple of the Brits back—that will take some time, because of the constituents stuck in New Zealand who are intensive volume—no British national should be kicked out of care unit doctors. For obvious reasons, how can the their hotel as a result of the new regulatory restrictions Foreign Secretary help, please? being put in place. Dominic Raab: We are working to get all the Brits in Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My 78-year-old New Zealand back home. I have updated the House in constituent David Keating is stranded in Brazil with his some detail about the measures we are taking. If my wife and daughter. He has an underlying heart problem hon. Friend has any problem getting his constituents and requires medication, and he has only nine days’ the advice that the high commission is providing, please medication left. He has had four flights cancelled already. get in contact with me and we will make sure that we The consulate is telling him that other European countries personally make that happen. are arranging flights for their citizens. Please will the Secretary of State intervene with other European countries Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The right to help him and his family get home? hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) talked about poor communication. Dominic Raab: I will check, but it does not seem to That is leading to constituents contacting their Members me to be correct that others are pursuing options that of Parliament. They are rightly worried, and individuals we have just sat on our hands and avoided. That is not here are worried, about loved ones abroad. Yesterday the approach. I can tell the hon. Member that, in afternoon, the MPs’ hotline did not work when my relation to Peru, we will be the first of the European office contacted it about a constituent stuck in New 239 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 24 MARCH 2020 British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help 240 to Return Home to Return Home Zealand. Will the Foreign Secretary give an assurance in England for around 19 years. Last night they got an that, if we are given email addresses or telephone numbers email from the FCO saying that it will try to help him at the Foreign Office to raise individual cases, they will but that it does not think it will be able to help her. At actually work? this hugely stressful time, they face being separated, in spite of the fact that Niamh was advised by the Irish Dominic Raab: The email addresses all work. The embassy that their best chance of getting out together right hon. Gentleman is right to talk about the challenges was to go via the UK Government. I wonder whether the call centre faces, but it is not a question of it not there is anything the Foreign Secretary can do to help working; when a whole string of Governments announce those constituents. restrictions, demand goes through the roof. Weunderstand that. We have doubled the capacity—I have mentioned Dominic Raab: That is a plight that quite a few people that already—and we are looking to double it again have found themselves in. When we have talked to the so that we can deal with this issue. I hope that he will be Peruvian authorities, we have been clear that we will mindful not just of the scale of British nationals abroad bring back UK nationals and any foreign national but of the rate of new restrictions that Governments— dependants who are with them. We have had excellent Mr Kevan Jones: No. co-operation with the Irish authorities. I have spoken to Simon Coveney in the last few days. We are always Dominic Raab: The right hon. Gentleman says, “No”. willing to share the burden of getting UK nationals, Well, then he is staring the challenge in the face and not Irish nationals and European nationals back home, quite appreciating it. The rate with which changes have including their dependants, who may not be of the same been imposed over the last few days has made it an nationality. I will look into that case. unprecedented challenge, but I am confident that we will rise to it. Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): This morning I received a couple of emails. One was from Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I Lucy Kelly, who is stuck in Australia facing a 140% hike have 18 constituents stranded overseas who have contacted in air fares to get back to the UK. The other was from me for help getting home. Some of them are running Kamaljit Dhesi, who, like many families from Warwick out of money or medication. I recognise the extraordinary and Leamington, is stuck in India due to the lockdown circumstances that we are in, and I pay tribute to my there. Does the Secretary of State agree that we must right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, his Ministers either introduce some sort of price cap for these carriers and consular officials for the work they are doing. One or exercise some sort of requisitioning powers to get constituent, Brianna Lewis, who is in Cusco, has lost our people back? her passport and has no travel documents. She cannot contact the consular offices to get a replacement passport Dominic Raab: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s or emergency travel documents. Will my right hon. suggestions, and the spirit in which he makes them. In Friend say what someone in those circumstances should relation to India, if there is a full lockdown we will need do? She is worried that if she turns up to the airport, she to negotiate with the Indian Government to facilitate will not be able to get on the plane. access for commercial or charter flights. In relation to Dominic Raab: I suggest that my hon. Friend contacts the other situation, we are working closely with the me or one of the junior Ministers and we will look into airlines, and that is work that the Secretary of State for that case directly. Obviously, that creates something of Transport is taking forward. Wewant to get to a situation, a challenge, but not one that should be insurmountable. given the huge pressure that the airlines are under, where we can provide stability but also the reassurance Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I have that repatriation or return flights can take place. This is around 20 constituents affected, one of whom is in Peru an urgent priority for the FCO, and we are working with his Irish partner Niamh, who has lived and worked closely with the Department for Transport to secure it. 241 24 MARCH 2020 Covid-19 Update 242

Covid-19 Update of social distancing measures, so the Prime Minister was quite right last night to call for people to stay at home. 2.20 pm May I put to the Secretary of State a few quick The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care questions? The virus thrives on inequalities. It is the (Matt Hancock): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would most vulnerable, without financial security, who are like to make a statement on covid-19. The spread of especially at risk. I therefore urge him to consider coronavirus is rapidly accelerating across the world and abolishing prescription charges for the duration of the in the UK. The actions that we took yesterday are not outbreak, especially for those with conditions such as actions that any UK Government would ever want to asthma. We are very mindful of the mental health take, but they were absolutely necessary. The goal is implications of asking people to stay at home, and we clear: to slow the rate of transmission in order to protect are also deeply concerned about the potential for domestic the NHS and save lives. Our instruction is simple: stay violence to increase. What support is available on those at home. two fronts? People should only leave their home for one of four We also need clear and unambiguous advice around reasons: first, to shop for basic necessities, such as food, which workers can and cannot go out. The Opposition as infrequently as possible; secondly, to exercise once a would call for just key workers to be able to go to work. day, for example a run, walk or cycle, alone or with We have seen Sports Direct, for example, insisting that members of the same household; thirdly, for any medical its workers turn up today. We are hearing stories about need, or to provide care or help to a vulnerable person; warehouses insisting that agency workers turn up and and fourthly, to travel to and from work, but only where about construction sites not putting in place social it cannot be done from home, and employers should be distancing measures. That is putting workers at risk, taking every possible step to ensure that staff can work and it is putting the lives of us all at risk. We need clear remotely. Those four reasons are exceptions to the rule. enforcement; if we are telling people that they will be Further guidance is available on the gov.uk website. fined for leaving their house, why are we not fining employers for insisting that their employees turn up to I want to be clear that where people absolutely cannot work when they should be staying at home? My right work from home, they can still go to work. Indeed, it is hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor will be putting important that they do so in order to keep the country more points to the Government about income protection running. Key workers, for example in the NHS and in the debate later today. social care, pharmacists and those in the medicines supply chain, should go to work, unless they are self- Let me quickly turn to personal protective equipment. isolating because they or someone else in their household I understand the efforts the Government have made, has symptoms. We will be publishing guidance later but there are still NHS staff saying that they have no today to explain the steps that employers must take to access to adequate PPE. We still have hospital chief ensure that employees are safe, including making sure executives expressing concern that they do not have that there is a 2-metre gap between workers wherever access to FFP3 masks, that they are not getting the possible. visors and sanitisers they need on time and that, when they do get masks, they are different from the previous In addition, all non-essential shops and community masks, so staff have to be retrained. I urge the Government centres are closed as of today, and gatherings of more to move heaven and earth to get the PPE our staff need than two people in public must stop. These measures to the frontline. We also need PPE in social care. We are are not advice; they are rules. They will be enforced, beginning to see outbreaks of covid-19 in social care including by the police, with fines for non-compliance homes. What support is in place for the residents of care starting at £30 but up to unlimited fines. homes, and when will we get the PPE that we need into I want to update the House on the shielding that was the social care sector? introduced yesterday. We are writing to up to 1.5 million Enforced social distancing is welcome—we called for of the most vulnerable people in the UK to advise them it—but in many ways it is a blunt tool without ramping that they will need to shield themselves from the virus in up testing and contact tracing. That is how countries the coming months. We will provide targeted support such as South Korea have managed to suppress the for all those who need it so that they have the food virus. We are still testing only around 5,000 people a supplies and medical care they need to make it through. day. We do not have enough community testing. We are Guided by the experts, we will look at the evidence and still not testing enough NHS staff. As the World Health continually review the effects of the measures. Organisation has instructed the world, test, test, test. We are engaged in a great national effort to beat the Leaked emails today suggest that, on Sunday, the virus. Everybody now has it in their power to save lives Government were asking to borrow research institutions’ and protect the NHS. Home is now the frontline. In testing kits—we have called for that, and we do not this national effort, working together, we can defeat this disagree with it—but the emails also said that the Prime disease. Everyone has a part to play. I commend this Minister had said: statement to the House. “there are no machines available to buy”. Many of our constituents, and indeed NHS staff, will 2.23 pm be asking why we did not procure machines and kits Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): I sooner. thank the Secretary of State, as always, for advance On intensive care capacity, there are reports today sight of his statement. As he knows, yesterday we called that the ExCeL centre will be turned into a field hospital on the Government to move to implement the enforcement of 500 beds and that staffing ratios for intensive care are 243 Covid-19 Update 24 MARCH 2020 Covid-19 Update 244 being relaxed. We understand that, given the staffing at all. I have not seen any leak, and I would not want to demands we face, but if we are setting up more field comment on a leaked email—certainly not one that I hospitals, will the Secretary of State tell us what oversight have not seen. It is true that we are bringing testing there will be? That change also means that more of our machines together to provide a more efficient testing specialist staff will be stretched further—we understand system, and I am grateful to the universities that have why—but what guidance will be in place? Will the put these testing machines into the system. This is a Secretary of State update the House on how many national effort, and they are playing their part. We are intensive care beds are now open, and how many more also buying machines where we can. will be opened; how many ventilators we have, and how The hon. Gentleman asked about staff ratios, which many more will be purchased; how many beds with have been publicised this morning. It is true that we are oxygen we have; and what the current extracorporeal having to change the standard staff ratios for delivery membrane oxygenation capacity is? of certain types of procedure, including ventilation. Will the Secretary of State quickly update the House The reason is that we cannot easily train somebody to on an issue that has emerged overnight about access to intubate a patient and put them on a ventilator. We are abortion care, as a result of some of the implications of training those who we can train to the standards necessary, the Coronavirus Bill? Will he assure the House that but this is an incredibly difficult task, and it is therefore women who want access to abortion care will continue safer to have the doctors who are trained to do it and to be able to get it? experienced in doing it doing it to more people, with Our constituents are worried; our constituents are more support staff than in normal circumstances. That fearful. I hope the Secretary of State understands that is absolutely necessary to respond to the quantity of when we put these questions to him, we are doing so need, because this is a very specialist part of the NHS because we want the national effort to defeat this virus and of medicine that suddenly has much bigger demand to succeed. than could ever have been envisaged outside a pandemic scenario. Matt Hancock: I will go through the answers to the I pay tribute to the staff who will be working much questions the hon. Gentleman reasonably asked. He more intensively and who are putting their vital skills at asked about the most vulnerable. A programme of work the service of the nation in order to save lives. I am is under way to ensure that those who need support grateful to all those who have worked with the royal because they are staying at home—especially those who colleges to ensure that we get these ratios right and are victims of domestic violence—get that support. It is stretch the capabilities we have as far as we safely can in incredibly important and difficult work, but we are the circumstances. Finally,the hon. Gentleman mentioned doing what we can in that space. He also asked about abortion. We have no proposals to change any abortion prescription charges. Only around a fifth of people pay rules as part of the covid-19 response. prescription charges, so those who are the least able to pay already get free prescriptions. The hon. Gentleman asked about Sports Direct. Sports Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): I thank the shops are not essential retail, and therefore they will be Health Secretary for the superhuman efforts he has closed. I have seen a bit of the noise that has been going taken to resolve the issues around PPE in the last week. on around today about Sports Direct in particular. I The evidence is that we are in a much better situation want to be absolutely clear that sports kit is not essential now than we were a week ago. He will not mind if I over the next three weeks, so we will be closing Sports follow up what the shadow Health Secretary said about Direct, along with other non-essential retail. He also testing. The concern is that we appear to be testing on a asked about fines for corporates as well as individuals— daily basis virtually no more people than we were over a absolutely, those fines are available if that is necessary. week ago, when the commitment was to increase the daily number of tests from 5,000 to 25,000. Given that The hon. Gentleman asked about protective equipment, this is a vital part of the success of the suppression and he is quite right to do so, because as we discussed strategies in South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong yesterday, having protective equipment for staff on the Kong, can he give us an estimated date when we will get frontline—especially those in the NHS and social care, back to routine covid-19 testing in the community of all but also in other frontline services—is very important. suspected cases? Even if that is three or four weeks We are moving heaven and earth, and the military away, a date means that there is a plan, and without involvement is ramping up the delivery of that equipment. a date, people will not be confident that this really is He asked specifically about social care. I am glad to say the plan. that the current plan is to get protective equipment to all social care settings by the end of this week, and then we will have to keep going. We have put in place a Matt Hancock: Although I was not in the Chamber, I hotline. If someone needs PPE and they are not getting heard the comments that my right hon. Friend the it, they should call the hotline so that we know where Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee made the difficulties are in getting PPE to the frontline, and about this yesterday, and he is right to push on this we can respond to those calls and get it to them. I feel issue. I am not going to give him a date today, because that very strongly. we are in the middle of buying the tests that are needed, The hon. Gentleman asked about testing. As we have especially the new tests that have just come on stream. I discussed many times, we are ramping up testing as fast have been able to give him the update that we have now as we can, including buying millions of tests. My team purchased millions of these tests, which will arrive in are currently buying these tests, which we will make the next days and weeks. I will be in a position to give available as quickly as possible. He asked about there him a more concrete timetable, and I will make sure he being no machines ready to buy. I do not recognise that gets that as soon as we can make it public. 245 Covid-19 Update 24 MARCH 2020 Covid-19 Update 246

Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): I extend our also made the call to arms for manufacturing capability continued thanks and gratitude to all who are working to be turned over to ventilators, and that has been very around the clock to help keep us all safe, and to look successful. after us and the most vulnerable in our communities. I I strongly endorse and support the backing of the also extend our thanks to the millions of people who Scottish Government and the SNP in the UK-wide have already acted on the Government’s advice to stay approach to getting the message out to everybody that at home. The importance of that cannot be stressed the most important thing anybody can do is stay at nearly enough, because that is what we all need to do to home. protect our friends and families and the vulnerable people in our communities. It is deeply unfortunate that Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I some employers, such as Sports Direct, seem to be commend the Secretary of State for his heroic efforts in acting in an entirely irresponsible manner, and I welcome our defence so far. Given that the proscription on travel the Secretary of State’s comments about that. is now legal and not simply a recommendation, will he In looking to see what more we can do, will the give us some clarification on what is meant by the care Secretary of State outline when he expects all frontline exemption, and confirm that it does not apply just to NHS staff to have the PPE that they need? We need to professional carers? At the moment, and since special do everything we can to support them, given the extent schools have been closed in the last week, a great deal of of the risks that they are facing. How many additional support has been given from one family to another, for ventilators have we managed to procure since the Prime example in providing respite care for special needs Minister put out the call to manufacturers? Are the children. That is very important and the people doing it Government planning to accept the EU’s offer to share are often being very responsible about self-isolation, in central procurement of ventilators, testing kits which they are already applying to their families. Will and PPE? that continue to be possible, and will my right hon. Scotland has a number of qualified doctors and Friend enable it in future? nurses who arrived in the country during the refugee crisis. Will the Secretary of State commit to talking to Matt Hancock: I will say three things in response to the Home Secretary about what possible actions could my right hon. Friend’s questions. On special schools, be taken to relax the existing rules, to allow those one of the carve-outs in the closure of schools was qualified medical professionals to support the country keeping open schools for those who are vulnerable, that they have adopted as their home? including those with special educational needs. The Bill includes a power to enable us to move from that position, In the light of the outcome of the Keeling study, but we do not propose to exercise it unless absolutely which was published by the Government on 20 March, necessary. The position therefore is that if someone is the Secretary of State ensuring that we have rapid and wishes to send their child to a special school, that is fine. effective contact tracing? The review showed that such It was one of the specific carve-outs. In the same way, if action could reduce the number of people infected by a key worker needs to send their child to school and each case from 3.11 to 0.21, and that would be a cannot look after them at home, schools are available. significant step towards greater containment of the current outbreak. My right hon. Friend asked about care. I want to make it clear that for people who are volunteering in Finally, I stress to the Secretary of State the need to response to covid-19 and those who are caring, even if impress on other Cabinet members the urgency of finding their responsibilities are unpaid or informal, they are support for the self-employed, who are still waiting to okay to do that and should do that. They should stay find out what position they will find themselves in. We more than 2 metres away from others wherever possible, know that people with no financial backing come under but that has to be a practical instruction, because of pressures that may have an impact on their health, course we need to care for people. As I said in the which would put further pressure on the system. statement, travel allows for caring, and I want to make it clear that volunteering in the response to covid-19 is a legitimate reason to travel. For example, the increasing Matt Hancock: On the last point, there was an urgent numbers of volunteers in the NHS are important. Although question about exactly that issue. It really is a matter for it is not paid work, it is work in the national effort to the Treasury. The hon. Gentleman is right that contact respond to covid-19. tracing is incredibly important, and the amount of contact tracing that we have done is one of the reasons My third point is that the Patient Safety, Suicide why we have managed to be behind other European Prevention and Mental Health Minister is sitting next countries in the curve. At this stage in the epidemic, it is to me and close to me, because she has recovered and all not possible to have contact tracing for everybody, as the evidence shows that people cannot catch covid-19 we can when there is a very small number. We are twice, at least not in quick succession. I welcome her looking at how we can do that better and enable individuals back to her place. to contact trace, including by using technology. Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): Following on the volunteering The hon. Gentleman asked about refugees. I do not theme, I know that the Government have already made know whether he was in the Chamber yesterday, but arrangements for schools and given advice that volunteers that subject was brought up and I said that I would look may still go in for certain purposes. Will the Secretary of into it. I will get back on that as soon as I can. State expand that to cover organisations such as Samaritans, The hon. Gentleman asked about the number of which uses volunteers to travel to call rooms? Will he ventilators. We started with around 5,000 and we now make it clear that it is acceptable for volunteers to have more than 12,000, which we have bought. We have do that? 247 Covid-19 Update 24 MARCH 2020 Covid-19 Update 248

Matt Hancock: Yes, it is acceptable. It is right that Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I volunteers in that sort of work, for example Samaritans, am very reassured to hear that by the end of the week, should travel to do it. care settings will all get PPE, which is not what the leader of my council was being told recently. I accept Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): The Secretary the Secretary of State’s reassurance: it is really good of State will know that, following the Prime Minister’s news. Can he further reassure me that the PPE, when it statement yesterday, all tourism and leisure providers arrives, will be to the right specification, in particular have closed. I commend those in my constituency that FFP3 respirator masks and not simply paper masks, closed before the advice was given, in order to protect which are next to useless? people. However, those who take lots of deposits are obviously being pressed by our constituents to return Matt Hancock: If there are specific concerns about that money, and that may put them in financial distress, the non-delivery of PPE to council settings, I want to but equally our constituents need the money back given know about them through the hotline that we have set their financial circumstances. I accept that the Secretary up precisely to short-circuit such problems having to be of State may not have an answer for me now, but will he brought to my attention on the Floor of the House. Let at least commit to take the issue away and see whether us fix them directly. On the second point, it has got to be an answer is forthcoming, perhaps with the support of the right stuff according to the clinical guidelines. the Treasury?

Matt Hancock: Yes, I will get my right hon. Friend an Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): We answer from the Department for Business, Energy and have been told that by the time covid-19 peaks, 44,000 Industrial Strategy. women will need access to early medical abortions. Women should not have to leave their homes during lockdown to access basic healthcare, so will the Secretary Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): The Independent of State commit not to oppose moves in the other place Food Aid Network oversees the work of many food to enable individual healthcare practitioners to certify banks, and I listened carefully to the Secretary of State’s abortions and to reinstate the regulations that were put comments about volunteering. That organisation is worried up for a short while on the Government website last about the closure of community centres and churches. night, so that we can have use of abortion medication Will he reassure it that its valuable work and volunteers and one practitioner being able to prescribe on the will be covered by the guidance? phone? Matt Hancock: We will set out the breadth of the guidance precisely on gov.uk. Matt Hancock: There are no proposals to change the abortion rules due to covid-19. Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Like my honourable colleagues, I commend the Secretary of Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): State’ssuperhuman efforts. On the subject of procurement, Care homes are being asked by local authorities to may I say two things? First, he will know that the Public contract for block bookings of beds, but at the moment Health England change of guidelines has caused some they would bear the liability if something were to go concern. Will he ensure that they are clear to people? wrong—if residents were to come to them with the Secondly, a senior A&E consultant reminded me that infection. May I urge my right hon. Friend to look they need more blood gas machines as well as more urgently at the question of whether an indemnity can be ventilators. provided?

Matt Hancock: Yes, both are important points that Matt Hancock: I will get back to my hon. Friend on we have in hand. that very, very important point. I am grateful that he raised it with me privately earlier, and I am sorry that I Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): It have not been able to get a reply in time. is good to see the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), back in her place—I am not sure whether Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I thank the the Secretary of State still needs to have 2 metres Secretary of State for his statement. Will he join me in distance. commending Pact House, a charity in my constituency in Stanley, which is delivering meals and food to the May I press the Secretary of State on personal protective elderly with some 90 volunteers? It contacted me this equipment? I hear what he says, and it is good that the morning because it is concerned that the building it military are being involved in the distribution, but is operates from may need some type of certificate to keep there enough PPE available for all healthcare workers operating, following the announcement yesterday. and social care workers? If not, what is happening with manufacturing and the procurement from around the Can he clarify the position? Will it just be allowed to world, because we are told there is some available from open, or will it have to apply for some sort of letter to around the world? say that it can operate?

Matt Hancock: Yes, we have a huge quantity that we Matt Hancock: As long as it is operating within the hold ready for an eventuality such as this. That was, in guidelines that the Prime Minister outlined in his address fact, enhanced in our no-deal preparations, but of course to the nation last night, which are set out in detail on we are also using that up, so we are buying to make sure the gov.uk website, it is doing the right thing and does that those stocks are replenished. not need any further certification. 249 Covid-19 Update 24 MARCH 2020 Covid-19 Update 250

Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): asked to come in and work in cramped conditions, One of the glimmers of light in these troubling times which we know exist in such places.Should those employers are the amazing community volunteer projects that not be taking advantage of the Government’s furlough have sprung up in all our constituencies. The Secretary scheme, so that their employees do not have to come of State will be pleased to learn that on Sunday, we set into work? Is it not the case that no employee should be up a “shopital” outside Worthing hospital, and I spent punished for doing the right thing and following the several hours selling rice, spuds and, crucially, loo paper Government advice to stay at home? to more than 100 ambulancemen, nurses and doctors. Should not that sort of arrangement be happening Matt Hancock: That sort of activity can technically anyway with the supermarkets and with the new scheme be done from home and, where work cannot be done delivering food packets, to make sure that NHS workers from home, employers should be following the guidelines for whom going shopping at eight o’clock in the morning to keep people more than 2 metres apart. during the “golden hour” is not appropriate can get on with their job much more easily? Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): There are many essential jobs and repairs that need to be done Matt Hancock: I did not know that my hon. Friend in people’s homes by workmen. So long as those homes was engaged in that sort of activity on a Sunday morning, are not specifically shielded or self-isolating because of but I am delighted that he was. Making sure that we get suspected disease, and so long as the proper social hot meals to NHS staff who are working often many separation is maintained, surely those ought to proceed, more shifts than gives them time to make a good meal is ought they not? incredibly important. It is something that we are working hard on, but I am really glad when it happens spontaneously, Matt Hancock: If they are essential, yes, but the aim as well as when we try to sort it from the Department. here is to try to absolutely push down the speed of transmission of this disease over the next few weeks, to Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I thank the Secretary get a grip on its spread. That means that, while we have of State for his statement. I am being inundated, as I am set out four reasons where it is reasonable to leave one’s sure many other Members are, in relation to small firms home, people should stay at home if they do not have a that are still insisting on their staff going in and undertaking good reason. roles, including fitting windows and doors, and those that are saying, “Well, the business is coming in; we’re Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): I will not read the going to stay open and carry on making new work,” text message that I have received from my hon. Friend despite having to travel house to house to offer what is the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) fundamentally a non-essential service. Will the Secretary because it contains unparliamentary language. However, of State raise this issue with the Department for Business, further to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member Energy and Industrial Strategy and other Ministers to for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury), I think ensure that those small firms, which arguably do not the Secretary of State needs to give the House a clear need to be working, are keeping their staff at home? explanation as to why it was yesterday that clear guidance was provided by the Government on access to abortion Matt Hancock: I will raise that question and make early in the day, only for it to be removed from the sure that the appropriate guidance is put on gov.uk. Government website later in the day. Why is that? Why are the Government not listening to the royal colleges, Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The and why are they making it more difficult for women Secretary of State is doing an excellent job and is being to get access to an essential procedure during this time incredibly responsive, despite what I appreciate must be of crisis? the huge volume of correspondence coming into his inbox. He is damned if he does and damned if he Matt Hancock: All I can do is repeat the clarity that doesn’t. However, there is confusion about whether there are no proposals to change abortion law. people should be going to work or not. From both a health and an economic perspective, as a business owner, Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): Will my I would much rather have a short, sharp shock, with right hon Friend confirm what the advice is on visiting everything closed down for 30 days to get this disease loved ones in hospital? Will he also confirm that Rutland under control and allow the Secretary of State to get his is not a “hospital desert”—as reported by Sky News, testing and tracking in place and defeat it. which has concerned my constituents, who have access to Leicester and Peterborough—and urge the media to Matt Hancock: I agree with what my hon. Friend has be cautious about deeply unhelpful and sensationalist said—and not just the first bit—but I repeat what I said reporting? in my statement. I want to be clear that, where people absolutely cannot work from home, they can still go to Matt Hancock: Yes; my hon. Friend makes a very work. Indeed, it is important that they do so to keep the important point. country running. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the Secretary Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): That is the of State not agree that the attempt to alter the abortion nub of the confusion, because I am hearing reports regime through the Coronavirus Bill is not the right use from constituents and from elsewhere in the city that, of those measures? Any change to abortion legislation, for example, workers in call centres for outbound sales which is almost the last protection for our unborn calls—which will undoubtedly be disruptive to those children, deserves adequate scrutiny and appropriate self-isolating at home who receive them—are being debate, which is not possible right now. Will he, for the 251 Covid-19 Update 24 MARCH 2020 Covid-19 Update 252 record, assure me that no changes to that legislation, people such as my constituent, and their employers, which regulates life and death, will be made in this way need to know how to get hold of it. He said that that through stealth and opportunism? information would be on the gov.uk website, but not everybody knows about the website. Could he improve Matt Hancock: I repeat an answer that I have given awareness of how to find out this information, and before: there are no proposals to change the law around make sure that we have access to the website and the abortion. phone number?

Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Sorry to return to Matt Hancock: I will make sure that the hon. Gentleman the “going to work”point, but last night the Government gets the phone number, so that he can pass it on to his were saying, “The only reason you may leave home is to constituent, and so that others in the same circumstances go to work (if you’re a key worker)”, but then the part know how to make that happen. in brackets changed to “but work from home if possible”. I think that is where there is confusion. People are not Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con): NHS workers are sure what they can and cannot do. That is a pattern that on the frontline of this battle, at huge personal risk. we have, sadly, seen repeated, and which has led to Many have returned to the NHS especially to fight “lockdown/not lockdown”. Could the Secretary of State coronavirus. Does my right hon. Friend agree that when say what the advice is again? I am not wishing to cause this is over, we need to find an appropriate way to trouble; I am just looking for clarity. recognise and honour their bravery?

Matt Hancock: The Prime Minister was clear in his Matt Hancock: Yes.My hon. Friend makes an incredibly address to the nation; I have been clear in my statement important point, which is that we as a nation owe a debt today; and the guidance on gov.uk is absolutely clear on of gratitude to those who work in the NHS, and we this point. need to constantly search for ways to show it, so that they all know how much we value the work that they do. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Manyhon. Members are not here because they are being responsible and Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I allowing some of us to represent them, so that we can echo the points made by the hon. Member for Thirsk observe proper social distancing. My hon. Friend the and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) about an absolute Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) has asked shutdown, and absolute clarity for the public. Does the me to raise the issue of irresponsible employers. She Secretary of State agree that we urgently need to get tells me that the Home Office in Sheffield is requiring more FFP3 masks out there? That is what the frontline workers to come in to do word processing and health workers are demanding, because they are terrified administrative work that could be done at home. Will by the prospect of this crisis. The masks provided to the the Secretary of State undertake to communicate my construction industry would be suitable for healthcare hon. Friend’s concerns to the Home Secretary, and if workers, I understand. what my hon. Friend describes is the case, ask the Home Secretary to put a stop to it straightaway and set Matt Hancock: I will look into that point. The masks a good example? need to be clinically right; it is not for me to make that decision, but I will take this up with the chief medical Matt Hancock: I will ensure that that is looked into. officer.

Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Will Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): May I personally the Secretary of State join me in paying tribute to the thank my right hon. Friend and the Department for the army of volunteers in Bournemouth and across the rapid response he has given to every inquiry that I have country—the individuals, businesspeople, charity groups made on behalf of my constituents? I also praise the and local organisations—who want to be part of the NHS in Dorset and, of course, throughout the country solution, and to help the elderly and vulnerable, allowing for all the fantastic work that everyone is doing in the us to adapt to this new way of life? Yesterday, a 30-day face of this appalling virus. lockdown was spoken of; this will require some form of First, we are still having problems getting PPE; I enforcement. Can he say what role the armed forces heard the Secretary of State say that the phone line, to might play in that? which he kindly referred me, is still the best way to try to follow up on that. Secondly, supermarkets are impossible Matt Hancock: The armed forces are doing an absolutely to get hold of so that food banks can go online to fantastic job of supporting civilian efforts, for instance request regular deliveries. Is there some way that we in the NHS on the logistics of delivery of protective can get a message to all supermarkets to help out in equipment and much more; but the armed forces will that regard? not be involved in the enforcement of the law. That is for the police, who will levy fines, starting at £30 and Matt Hancock: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for escalating if people continue to flout the rules. his first point. He is right that the hotline is the best way to sort out the PPE supply issues. I am told that it has Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): One of my already responded to more than 2,000 inquiries, is moving constituents is a home carer who has been unable to get through inquiries fast and has a lot of people on PPE. She stopped working because her daughter has the other end of the line to make sure that people can asthma, and obviously she is concerned about the potential get hold of somebody. I shall take up the latter point for passing on the virus. I am pleased about what the with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health Secretary said about the availability of PPE, but Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. 253 Covid-19 Update 24 MARCH 2020 Covid-19 Update 254

Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I commend my right my constituency, where sadly two patients who tested hon. Friend for the sterling work he is doing. Will he positive for covid-19 died last week. I pay tribute to the provide some clarification on the definition of essential dedication of all the staff who are, as the Secretary of retail? The general store that purchases a freezer and State knows, working in buildings that need more says that it is a food store quite clearly is not, but the investment. Will he make sure that those on the frontline garden centre that incorporates a farm shop that may continue to get the PPE that they need and have more serve a local community might well be. access to ventilators? Matt Hancock: These things will inevitably end up Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely—on all counts. I just being a judgment at the boundary, but if there are two want to add my thanks to all those working on the types of shop in one organisation, we will sometimes frontline, and throughout the NHS and social care, to require some parts of it to close. If there is a café in a my hon. Friend’s thanks to those in King’s Lynn. I also shop that sells essential supplies, the café must close but put on the record my thanks to my extraordinary civil the essential-supplies part can stay open. service political and Public Health England team, who Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I, too, praise have done amazing work and continue to work incredibly the Secretary of State and his wonderful team for their hard in response to this crisis. heroic efforts in fighting this killer virus. Will he confirm that volunteers such as those in the Holme Valley Covid Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): Will my right Mutual Aid group, who are providing shopping services, hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to our fantastic delivering food parcels, picking up prescriptions, posting NHS staff at Blackpool Victoria Hospital? Some private mail and dog walking, should continue to supply those firms in my constituency have offered free or discounted services for their community, in a safe way? parking to NHS staff, to help them out in these difficult times. Will he commend those firms and encourage Matt Hancock: Yes, they should. They should stay others to do the same to make sure that it is as easy as 2 metres away from other people, wherever possible, but possible for staff to get to work? we are actively encouraging the voluntary effort in support of covid-19 and we actively support it. Matt Hancock: Yes, I will. I pay tribute to all the staff Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): I thank at Blackpool hospital. I met some of them during the the Secretary of State for all he is doing and I thank the election campaign and I know that they are working thousands of retired nurses who have answered his call incredibly hard in preparation for what is to come. I to come back to the NHS, but may I just raise a wrinkle absolutely commend all those who are giving free parking in my constituency of Newcastle-under-Lyme? A nurse to NHS staff and we are looking at what we can do to wrote to me who is 58 and retired at 55. She has make that happy occurrence spread more broadly across returned to work for 16 hours and is happy to work full the NHS. time, but she is concerned about the possible effect on her pension. Will the Secretary of State and the Chancellor of Exchequer work together to look at the situation and BILL PRESENTED make sure that there are no financial barriers to heroes such as her coming back to work for our NHS? CONTINGENCIES FUND BILL Matt Hancock: Yes. We solved several of the problems Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) in the pension system at the Budget, and there are Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the further solutions in the Bill. I have not come across any Prime Minister, Steve Barclay, Jesse Norman, John further problems in respect of pensions, but if my hon. Glen and Kemi Badenoch, presented a Bill to make Friend writes to me with the individual case, I will check provision increasing the maximum capital of the that that is the case in that instance, too. Contingencies Fund for a temporary period. James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con): On Saturday, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time I met the chief executive and the incident management now, and to be printed (Bill 123) with explanatory notes team at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in King’s Lynn in (Bill 123-EN). 255 24 MARCH 2020 Wellbeing of Future Generations 256

Wellbeing of Future Generations between today’s emissions and the full impacts of their heating. The glacial pace of climate action shows that Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order economies and political systems the world over are No. 23) failing to value future lives and, indeed, the wellbeing of current generations in the manner they deserve. 3.5 pm Last month, a landmark report from the World Health Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I beg to Organisation, UNICEF and The Lancet found that no move, single country is sufficiently protecting children’s health, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for their environment and their futures. That index, which requiring public bodies to act in pursuit of the United Kingdom’s compares performance on issues from child flourishing environmental, social, economic and cultural wellbeing by meeting to greenhouse gas emissions and equity,finds that countries wellbeing objectives,publishing future generations impact assessments, the world over are failing the next generation. We can accounting for preventative spending, and through public services and must do better than this. The same is true in other contracts; to establish a Commissioner for Future Generations areas, including poverty,regional inequality,environmental for the United Kingdom; to establish a Joint Parliamentary Committee on Future Generations; to require companies to degradation and the over-consumption of finite resources. consider the impact of their activities on the United Kingdom’s Each of these have their impacts today, but each also wellbeing; and for connected purposes. harms the health, means and opportunities of tomorrow. It is a great honour to introduce the Wellbeing of The concept of our obligations to future generations Future Generations Bill today. I pay tribute to the Bill’s is not new; it exists in every political tradition. It can co-sponsors, the indefatigable Lord Bird and everyone transcend party politics. The Big Issue’s Today for who has been involved in the Today for Tomorrow Tomorrow campaign has secured pledges from the Prime campaign so far. I wish that I was introducing the Bill in Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, the former very different circumstances, but I am confident that leader of the Lib Dems, the First Minister of Scotland hon. Members can see that it does not conflict with our and the leader of Plaid Cymru. I hope that the Prime immediate priorities, which are rightly elsewhere. Indeed, Minister will therefore ensure that this Bill continues its at times like this, it is only human to ask, “What could journey through the House in due course. The Bill’s we have done differently to prevent this from happening? co-sponsors represent all the major UK political parties How can we stop something like this ever happening and every one of our four nations. Initiatives to put again?” Our common interests, our connectivity to one wellbeing at the heart of decision making can be found another and our compassion are all burning bright in in many countries around the world. New Zealand’s an otherwise dark moment. Acting today for tomorrow wellbeing budget, led by its Treasury, invests billions in is as relevant now as it will ever be. tackling deep-rooted social problems, including child As we wrote yesterday, as co-sponsors of the Bill, in a poverty,mental health issues and family violence. Different letter published in The Guardian: approaches can be found from Gibraltar to Ghana, and “It is essential to deal with coronavirus as it is—a global from Malta to many other places, but inspiration for emergency—but it is clear we must work harder to predict and this Bill was found closer to home. prepare for the existential risks we face. Not only the threat of The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act pandemics, but the climate crisis” 2015, passed by the Senedd in that year, was pioneering. too. That is the nub of the Today for Tomorrow campaign. It was the first legislation in the world to enshrine in law It is backed not just by all the sponsors of the wellbeing a duty on public bodies to safeguard the wellbeing of of future generations Bill, but by over 70 MPs in total future generations. It created the Future Generations and many in the other place who spoke eloquently in Commissioner for Wales, who is responsible for promoting favour of its proposals. sustainable development. The commissioner,Sophie Howe, The future generations Bill is also gaining support gives future generations the voice they currently lack from across civil society, my constituents and, I am sure, here, and her recent progress report shows that the from many others as well. It all suggests that the desire legislation is making a real difference. Our Bill, similarly, to be better ancestors is incredibly strong. To me, it also would create an independent commissioner for the whole suggests that we know in our hearts and in our heads of the UK, to represent those who cannot yet represent that the way that we currently make policy and legislation themselves. It would empower the commissioner to does not adequately prioritise the wellbeing of our bring legal proceedings against a public body that is children and grandchildren. failing to fulfil its wellbeing duties. It is important to say When we are rebuilding on the other side of this that the Bill has carefully considered the Welsh experience pandemic, we can choose to do so with greater consideration and taken on the lessons learned, so that it is even than ever to future generations, with stronger compassion stronger legislation, set out to be even more effective. for every person and their wellbeing, and with an For example it would strengthen the duty ensuring that unshakeable commitment to building an economy and wellbeing objectives are actually met. society that works for everyone now and for the future. In addition to the independent UK commissioner for It is these values of compassion and consideration, future generations, I wish to highlight a few of the other co-operation and courage that hold us together in times key provisions in the Bill. It contains: a duty on the of disaster, and the same values are at the heart of this Secretary of State to publish national indicators that Bill, which it wants to centre in our politics at all times. measure progress towards wellbeing goals and report We are all aware of the pressures that regular election annually to Parliament; a duty on all non-devolved cycles place on decision makers to pursue policies that public bodies to balance the needs of the present with show benefits quickly and the difficulty that that can the needs of the future; a requirement on companies of add in addressing longer-term challenges. The climate medium size and above to consider how their activities crisis is an obvious example, with decades of delay relate to the wellbeing of the UK; provisions for the 257 Wellbeing of Future Generations 24 MARCH 2020 258

[Caroline Lucas] Point of Order establishment of a joint parliamentary Committee for 3.15 pm the future, to scrutinise legislation for its effect on future generations, to hold Ministers to account for Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): On a point of short-term decision making and to report on future order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Yesterday afternoon, I trends; and a requirement on public bodies to report on questioned and criticised Airbnb for continuing to provide and seek to increase their preventive expenditure. holiday lets at a time when people are being discouraged A study from Scotland illustrates the importance of from using holiday properties to escape their normal preventive spending, finding that 40% of all public place of residence in the midst of a crisis. In doing so, I spending was devoted annually to alleviating social highlighted that other holiday home providers, such as problems and tackling “failure demand”—demand that Sykes Cottages, were no longer taking bookings for the could have been avoided had earlier preventive measures immediate period ahead. I have since been inundated been put in place. It would be insightful if the Government with emails and messages from many very unhappy could provide an equivalent figure for England. Another Sykes customers who tell me that the company is study, by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, found that withholding payments that have been made to it at a poverty costs Britain £78 billion a year, with £1 in every time when many families, who are not now able to go on £5 of Government spending making up for the way in holiday, really need that money to get through what is a which poverty damages people’s lives. challenging period for most family finances. I wanted the record to reflect that. I hope those on the Treasury In conclusion, I am acutely aware that this Bill is Bench have heard what I have said. In terms of the concerned with preventive spending and the next generation efforts they are undertaking to encourage responsible when an urgent crisis is facing this one, yet as we have business at this time, I hope that that message will also seen in the response of communities across the country, be heard by the management of Sykes Cottages. emergencies can bring out the best in us, and give us a common focus and a common purpose. The author Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I Rebecca Solnit says that disasters give us thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order, “a glimpse of who else we ourselves may be and what else our which I can well understand if yesterday he had been society could become.” praising a company only to find that he was being So, with the eyes of future generations upon us, this Bill inundated with emails to the contrary of what he said. presents Parliament with an opportunity to act today, He has put the record straight and those on the Treasury for tomorrow. This Bill is not a panacea but it might Bench will have heard his comments. I am sure they will just help us head in the right direction, by enshrining feed back to the appropriate Department the points long-term thinking and the voices of future generations that he has made. at the heart of decision making, precisely where they belong. Question put and agreed to. Ordered, That Caroline Lucas, Bambos Charalambous, Simon Fell, Dr Philippa Whitford, Wera Hobhouse, Liz Saville Roberts, Claire Hanna, Abena Oppong-Asare, Bob Blackman, Anna McMorrin, Kevin Hollinrake and Alex Sobel present the Bill. Caroline Lucas accordingly presented the Bill. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 11 September, and to be printed (Bill 124). 259 Business of the House24 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 260

CONTINGENCIES FUND BILL: BUSINESS 8) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under OF THE HOUSE paragraph (5)(e) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, the Chairman shall instead put a single Question in relation to Ordered, those provisions, except that the Question shall be put separately That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on on any Clause of or Schedule to the Bill which a Minister of the the Contingencies Fund Bill: Crown has signified an intention to leave out. Timetable Consideration of Lords Amendment (1) (a) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee, any (9) (a) Any Lords Amendments to the Bill may be considered proceedings on Consideration, and proceedings on Third forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings Reading shall be taken at today’s sitting in accordance with this interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. Order. (b) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (b) Notices of Amendments, new Clauses or new Schedules to (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion be moved in Committee of the whole House may be accepted by one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a second suspended under sub-paragraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed. time. (10) Paragraphs (2) to (7) of Standing Order No. 83F (c) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) four hours after of Lords amendments) apply for the purposes of bringing any the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order. proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (9) of (d) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any this Order. proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading Subsequent stages shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) six hours after the commencement of proceedings on (11) (a) Any further Message from the Lords on the Bill may the Motion for this Order. be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put accordingly. (2) As soon as the proceedings on the Motion for this Order (b) Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall have been concluded, the Order for the Second Reading of the (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion Bill shall be read. one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings (3) When the Bill has been read a second time: suspended under sub-paragraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed. (a) it shall, despite Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills (12) Paragraph (2) to (5) of Standing Order No. 83G (Programme not subject to a programme order), stand committed to a orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the Committee of the whole House without any Question being put; Lords) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings to a (b) proceedings on the Bill shall stand postponed while the conclusion in accordance with paragraph (11) of this Order (and Question is put, in accordance with Standing Order No. 52(1) for those purposes paragraph (5) of Standing Order No. 83G is (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in not subject to paragraphs (6) and (7) of that Standing Order). connection with bills), on any financial resolution relating to the Reasons Committee Bill; (13) Paragraphs (2) to (6) of Standing Order No. 83H (Programme (c) on the conclusion of proceedings on any financial orders: reasons committee) apply in relation to any committee to resolution relating to the Bill, proceedings on the Bill shall be be appointed to draw up reasons after proceedings have been resumed and the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not brought to a conclusion in accordance with this Order. Miscellaneous notice of an Instruction has been given. Miscellaneous (4) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the (14) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply whole House, the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House to proceedings on the Bill. without putting any Question. (15) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not (b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall apply in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies. proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question being put. (16) Standing Orders Nos. 83J to 83O (Certification of bills, clauses, schedules etc) shall not apply to the Bill. (5) (For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (1), the Chairman or Speaker shall (17) (a) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the forthwith put the following Questions (but no others) in the same Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply: taken or to recommit the Bill. (a) any Question already proposed from the Chair; (b) No notice shall be required of such a Motion. (b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so (c) Such a motion may be considered forthwith without any proposed; Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. (c) the Question on any amendment, new Clause or new Schedule selected by the Chairman or Speaker for separate (d) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith; decision; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (c) shall thereupon be resumed. (e) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted (d) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made business) shall apply to proceedings on such a Motion. by a Minister of the Crown; (18) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to (e) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the proceedings to which this Order applies except by a Minister of business to be concluded; and shall not put any other questions, the Crown. other than the question on any motion described in paragraph (17)(a) of this Order. (b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. (6) On a Motion made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the (19) No debate shall be held in accordance with Standing Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) at today’s sitting after this or Schedule be added to the Bill. Order has been agreed. (7) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under (20) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be paragraph (5)(d) on successive amendments moved or Motions interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of made by a Minister of the Crown, the Chairman or Speaker shall the House. instead put a single Question in relation to those amendments (21) No private business may be considered at today’s sitting or Motions. after this Order has been agreed.—(Jesse Norman.) 261 24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 262

Contingencies Fund Bill to protect livelihoods, businesses, jobs and wellbeing. That is what we are seeking to do. I do not agree—if I Second Reading may say so to my right hon. Friend—that the requirements that this Bill seeks to address would or could have been Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I accommodated in any other economic circumstances. wish to inform Members that under the Order of the To move at the speed at which we are moving to offer House of today, notices of amendments, new clauses or the support we are offering demands the cash movement new schedules to be moved in Committee of the whole that this Bill is designed to achieve. House may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a Second time. In order to Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): be eligible for selection, Members should table amendments Can the Minister confirm that the amounts that we are within the next five minutes. talking about in this Bill relate to departmental spending that may need to happen over the next few months, and 3.17 pm that they do not relate to the balance sheet of the Bank of England or any of the lending facilities that have The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): been made available to business? I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. As the House knows, we are living in unprecedented Jesse Norman: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely times. The Government have made it clear that they will right. This legislation, as I will go on to describe, relates do whatever it takes to mitigate and limit the effects of to departmental spending. It as an advance against the covid-19 pandemic on the United Kingdom. To that departmental spending that will be properly ratified, end, we have a coherent, co-ordinated and comprehensive accommodated and acknowledged within the estimates plan to support public services, equipping our doctors, process, as one might expect. nurses and other essential staff with the tools they require on the frontline in support of their work. It is a Departments—this goes straight to point just made plan to protect businesses, jobs, wages and incomes by the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton through this difficult and uncertain period for the economy. (Sir Edward Davey)—need money from 1 April, and At the heart of the Bill is a recognition that the Government they need more than the House has already allocated to must act swiftly and boldly to provide the resources them via the vote on account. The Government cannot necessary to limit, and ultimately defeat, the virus. afford to wait until July to deliver the resources needed for the next financial year, and the Bill seeks to close As the House knows, Parliament provides the that gap. Government with the authority to expend resources, capital and cash via the supply process. The process is The House has long recognised that the Government begun with the publication of the main supply estimates, sometimes need to act without recourse to the normal which we debate in this Chamber,and then the introduction processes, which is whyParliament has historically provided of a supply and appropriation Bill. It is only once that for the existence and use of a contingencies fund. But Bill receives Royal Assent, usually in July,that Governments Parliament has wisely limited the amount that can be get the bulk of their resources, capital and, most issued from the fund to 2% of the previous year’s cash importantly, cash to carry out their approved functions. spend. For 2020-21, that amounts to some £10.6 billion, Until the supply Bill passes, typically in July, Departments which would be more than adequate in a normal year. live on what is described as “vote on account” money. But, as we have discovered, we do not live in normal This money usually represents about 45% of the times. These times are without precedent in the modern departmental spending on services from the previous era. Through this Bill, the Government therefore ask year. It allows Departments to start spending from 1 the House temporarily to raise the limit on the amount April, and it normally provides sufficient funds to tide that sits in the contingencies fund to 50% of that them over until the balance is delivered via the supply expended last year; I should be clear that that is Act in July, as described. However, as events have been approximately £266 billion. unfolding, it has become clear that additional departmental Let me go further and say—again, this is a response spending will be needed compared to last year, and for to the point made by the right hon. Member for Kingston good reason. The scale and spread of the virus mean and Surbiton—that this is not new spending and it is that we must act now to safeguard lives. The Government not a blank cheque. All advances will have to be repaid cannot afford to wait. No one in this House would want once the main supply estimates are voted on in the us to wait until July to deliver the resources that summer, when the House will have the opportunity to Departments need for the next financial year. scrutinise and debate where the resources have been allocated in the normal way. Nor does this represent Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): The additional Government borrowing. The Chancellor has Bill is necessary because the economy has come to a said that he will update the Debt Management Office’s halt; we have effectively halted it in order to put an end financing remit in April to reflect his recent announcements. to this virus. There is a narrative that actually we could Quite simply, this Bill is about cash flow and the need have toughed it out, and that we have sacrificed the to deliver the support we have announced without economy for healthcare. That never really was a realistic delay. It allows the Treasury to provide cash advances alternative, was it? where they are urgently needed, and it provides for a safety net between supply estimates.This is an exceptionally Jesse Norman: The Government have not had any short Bill, but it is an exceptionally important one in time for that narrative, nor has there been any decision that it allows the Government to deliver the extraordinary in our mind other than to act as decisively, effectively package of support announced by my right hon. Friend and comprehensively as we can to defeat this virus and the Chancellor. It solves a cash timing issue arising 263 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 264 from the current process, and balances the need for an everybody, including our most vulnerable, whatever it urgent response to the unfolding crisis with the necessary takes to keep them protected and safe. That is why we parliamentary scrutiny and oversight. are supporting this Bill to enable the resources to be This Bill is yet another demonstration of the available. Government’s commitment to fighting the threat from Last night, the Prime Minister effectively shut down covid-19—protectingbusinesses,jobsand,mostimportantly, every non-essential business. I want the Chancellor and our fellow citizens, from the ravages of this deadly Treasury Front Bench to make it clear now that every disease. I wholeheartedly commend it to the House. single worker, in every single one of those businesses, will be covered by the 80% income protection scheme, and that if, as a result of that 20% cut in incomes, they 3.25 pm fall below the thresholds for universal credit or housing John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): May benefit, they will be eligible for top-ups. I ask the I start by assuring the Treasury Bench that the official question, will the Government consider setting a national Opposition will support this Bill? I support the Government minimum wage floor for the income protection schemes? throughout, obviously, but as the Minister might expect, That would protect the lowest paid, because 80% of low we will be constructively critical as well throughout the pay might result in some people being paid below the process. national minimum wage. This Bill, as the Minister says,will enable the Government Will we now get more clarity on exactly when the to access the resources to tackle the crisis. I have to say, income protection scheme will be operational? Will the there is a sense of irony here, because only three months Government also condemn employers such as Wetherspoon ago I hoped to be bringing forward a Bill for about that have now stopped wage payments and told employees £250 billion as well, for long-term investment in our that those will not resume until the end of April? Some infrastructure—but that is another story. It probably senior members of the Government have an influence would have been supported as well, because it was over that particular employer, so we would welcome the infrastructure spend. Anyway, we will support this Bill, Government making it clear to that employer that that but we have the opportunity to raise some issues on the he should pay his staff and that he should close so that way in which the resources will be applied—forgive me that company can play its part in protecting the health if I do that. of our community. We recognise that this is the gravest crisis facing our The Government cannot act only for workers who country that any of us in this House has known. We are are furloughed. They must also step up for the many debating matters of life and death, and the proposals who will be having their hours reduced but not stopped that we make now and the decisions that we need to altogether, by topping them up to at least 80% of their take in the coming months obviously deserve scrutiny, regular wage, or through some other scheme. When the and that scrutiny should be welcomed on all sides. Last Minister responds, will he clarify what will be the protection night, the Prime Minister was right to call for people to for workers who have been put on short time? stay at home to protect our NHS and to save lives. We Sadly, many workers have already been laid off as a called for enforcement measures yesterday morning, result of this terrible virus. The Secretary of State for and the Mayor of London and many others have been Health and Social Care was extremely candid and honest making private representations for greater clarity and last week when he said that he could not live on the greater action. £94.25 per week statutory sick pay. I do not think any of Clear and detailed guidance to employers and workers us can. How can the Government expect entire families is needed on which workplaces should close. As we saw to afford a week’s shop on that sort of income? Will the in the earlier response to the statement, a lack of clarity Government therefore increase the appallingly low level remains about certain operations, particularly within of statutory sick pay and ensure that all workers are the construction sector. We have received reports from eligible for it? So many are not at the moment. Will they unions,particularly those representing construction workers, also increase the £73 rate of jobseeker’s allowance and that there is utter confusion on the ground at the employment support allowance for disabled people? moment about what operations should be maintained Will they also look at the even lower rate of carer’s and which workers should be on site. For anyone who allowance? Carers are expected to live on £66 a week. has been anywhere near the construction industry or As we discussed earlier today, there are 5 million worked on site at any time in their lives, things have not self-employed workers in this country, many of whom changed that much in recent years. These workers also cannot work from home. We desperately need a scheme work in some of the most insanitary conditions, so we that will be ready for them soon. It needs to guarantee have to ensure that they are properly protected. them the 80% of income that others have been guaranteed. The Chancellor and the Government must act Whether it is a cabbie, a childminder, an actor or a immediately so that every single worker has a protected plumber, there are battalions of self-employed out there income. We discussed that earlier today. We want to who need their security. We need confirmation that a ensure that every single household is secure in their scheme will be brought forward not within days but home, whether they rent or mortgage, so that no one within hours, to give them that assurance. who makes the right choice to stay at home faces We also urge the Government to work with the hardship. Last week, the Chancellor set out an construction industry and the trade unions to find a unprecedented scheme to underwrite 80% of the wages solution that covers the particularities of that sector—we of all workers “furloughed”—as he put it—promising have pointed them out before—with workers employed that no redundancies or lay-offs were needed and that through payroll companies and umbrella companies. the Government would do, “Whatever it takes”. Today Most of them are forced into self-employment, and is the time to deliver, with clarity and security for often exploitative self-employment of the worst sort. 265 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 266

[John McDonnell] In addition, we also believe it necessary to suspend all bailiff proceedings for the same period. Practically speaking, I turn to housing. We welcome the moves to protect there are clear health and safety issues about bailiffs mortgage holders, with payment holidays now put in entering the homes of families who may be self-isolating. place for mortgagees, but we need the same security for Furthermore, what measures is the Chancellor proposing renters and for the Government to understand the for suspending payments of household utility bills? difference. For a renter, a rent holiday is not the same as That was raised in the discussions this morning and we a mortgage holiday. Rent is paid continuously during a will support measures that are brought forward. During tenancy, while mortgages have a fixed term, meaning this period, we cannot have bailiffs and we cannot have that repayment terms can be simply extend. It is therefore disconnections of water, energy or internet. important that the Government act to ensure that rents What are the Government doing about those without are paid, not merely that payments are suspended for internet access? Many people in our communities rely this period. on libraries to access the internet, but now those libraries We are extremely disappointed by the legislation are closing. What measures will the Government bring published yesterday. Frankly, many believe that the in to ensure that people can get online, whether for Prime Minister has broken his promise to the country’s benefit services or to maintain some form of social 20 million renters in 8.5 million households. It was not contact? These are huge demands being placed on the an evictions ban, as the Prime Minister promised. That civil service, and I pay tribute to all those public servants legislation will not stop people losing their homes as a throughout our public administration who are working result of the virus; as my right hon. Friend the shadow day and night to establish these schemes. They are not Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local often praised, but they are in this situation. Government said, it just gives them some extra time to The civil service has been depleted by a decade of pack their bags. To be frank, it is just not good enough. austerity. As extra demands are placed on, for example, The Government must look again; we urge them to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Department look again. for Work and Pensions, other civil servants are being There are also wider problems. Over recent years, redeployed. Are those recently retired or made redundant austerity cuts have lessened the value of support available from the service being asked to come back to assist, just via housing benefit. The Government must immediately as we have invited other professionals to come back into suspend the benefit cap and rid us of the bedroom tax the NHS? that has affected so many families. We welcome the Will the Minister also confirm that the current round moves announced last week on local housing allowance, of HMRC office closures and redundancies will at least but the Government must go further and restore the be paused, if not reversed, at this stage? What adaptations local housing allowance from the 30th percentile back have been made for those working in the mass call to the 50th percentile of market rates, as it was before centres of HMRC and the DWP? Is the telephony 2010. technology there for them to work at home? Is there greater social distancing within the call centres themselves? People will have made rental decisions based on their We all know that universal credit cannot cope now, but incomes, and they should not be penalised by the its roll-out was again delayed in the Budget. Millions unforeseeable impact of the coronavirus, when we are more households are becoming eligible for universal asking people to lock themselves away. Now is not the credit, housing benefit and other payments, so are the time for families to be downsizing or sofa surfing with Government confident that the system can cope with parents, grandparents or friends in cramped conditions. this increased demand, because the feedback that we Many of us represent constituencies where overcrowding are getting from our constituents on the frontline is that has become the plague of modern existence. they find it impossible because of the long waits to get May I briefly pay tribute to the Mayor of London, through and have their case dealt with successfully. No Sadiq Khan? His team has worked tirelessly and creatively one is blaming the civil servants; it is about resources in securing hotel accommodation to get London’s rough and investment. sleepers off the streets, though we would like to know What are the Government doing to encourage businesses more about the duration and the cost of the deal that to take up business interruption loans, when some the Government have procured with hotels. It is important businesses see loans as less effective than grants for that the Government act to keep households in their keeping them afloat? Is there potential for increasing homes so that that attachment to work, school and the level of grants and extending their range? Have the study can continue seamlessly at the conclusion of this Government considered our proposal that such loan extraordinary period. We cannot have a situation in agreements should include job retention clauses, which which, at the end of this, tenants have either depleted all would mean that when businesses receive a loan, they their savings or, worse, have amassed large and unpayable can give workers the security they need in the knowledge bills. If this is the case, the Government will be deferring that they will not lose their jobs? It is not much to ask of evictions only a few months down the road, so the a business receiving financial support from the Government suspension of evictions for private and social tenants in this way that they work towards our overall objectives. should be extended, we believe, from three months to six months. Shelter has estimated that as many as Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The 20,000 eviction proceedings are already in progress and difficulty with what the right hon. Gentleman suggests will go ahead over the next three months unless the is that most businesses do not know the extent of this Government take action to stop them, and they must be crisis and the impact it will have on them. It is impossible stopped. When the Financial Secretary to the Treasury at this point to determine exactly how long this will last rises to his feet, he must be clear that there will be no or how deep a recession might be. Is he not asking the evictions of any kind during this period. impossible of businesses? 267 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 268

John McDonnell: In the real world, that is exactly why demanded an urgent action plan for social care—a trade unions have asked that when loans are given or system that looks after those most at risk from the virus. support is provided through the jobs retention scheme, As the Chancellor said, our social care system needs there is a requirement for businesses to sit down with whatever it takes. Whether that is residential care, their trade unions and work through a plan for the domiciliary care or family carers caring for loved ones future. In that way, security could be given to workers, in their own home, the resources have to be there now. because they would be involved in determining that, Can the Minister tell us how much has been allocated and judgments can then be made at different stages of immediately to councils and care providers? the business development process. We are looking for Let me turn to local government. I welcome the some form of assurances that will give wider security sectoral consultation that is taking place and the dialogue than there is at the moment. If a company is being with trade unions across all departments. Councils have supported by a loan or the job retention scheme, it is a key role to play as the guarantor of social care not much for them to sit down with their workers to provision, but they too have been devastated by cuts work honestly and fairly on a plan for the future to see and now have the responsibility of the hardship funds how they can work together to secure those jobs. to administer. Will the Minister be clear what extra Consideration has been given to extending grants to resources are being made available to local councils, many small businesses that cannot afford to take on especially as many are likely to start seeing drops in additional debt. We would welcome information on council tax and business rates revenue? What extra how the Government will extend coverage by extending funding is being made available so that councils can extend the range of eligibility criteria, to make the grants more council tax support schemes in this period as well? flexible. Although we fully back the measures outlined yesterday, We also need clarity for workers beyond the retail there are unfortunately some households where these sector—those on construction sites in particular, but measures could mean more abuse and even risk to life. also in factories, call centres, warehouses, distribution This is where domestic abuse takes place. For victims of and other settings. What are essential workplaces? What domestic abuse and for others, this home isolation will is the clear definition? I think that many of these issues be terrifying. We need the police, refuges, mental health can be dealt with fairly readily in the discussions that services and other social services to have all the resources the Government are having with the trade unions, but and capacity they need. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend they need to be more detailed and on a more permanent, the shadow Minister for Women and Equalities, who structured basis. has raised these issues repeatedly. We need a positive The NHS was promised budget increases over the Government response that is backed by sufficient resources next five years. We suggest that the Chancellor brings and full consultation. forward the funding for years two, three and four into Others, like me, have raised the issue of the charity year one. Can the Minister assure us that we will not and voluntary sector. Many charities whose work is have another weekend when doctors and nurses working essential in filling the gaping holes in our public services in intensive care have to go on the media to beg for and our safety net are desperately worried about their personal protective equipment and clothing? There were finances. Charities dealing with the immediate response instances over the weekend, and we have heard assurances to the coronavirus and its effect on the most vulnerable from the Government, but action is needed rapidly. Can need access to enough grants to allow them to scale up he also assure NHS workers that they will get not only their operations. Others need to be assured that they the equipment they need but the tests they need? The can access the same level of support that small businesses World Health Organisation has made it clear from the are rightly getting so that they can suspend some of start that its advice is test, test, test. The scale and the their operations without having to layoff their hard-working speed of testing need to be addressed. staff and can restart once the crisis passes. Can the Can the Minister assure the House and the public Minister tell us what reassurances have been provided that everything is being done to procure more critical by the Government to the charity and voluntary sector? care beds? I welcome the news that 7,500 recently Will the Government work with the sector to find retired staff have returned to the NHS, and I pay tribute suitable reliefs in these unprecedented times and can the to each and every one of them. The Government have Government outline what schemes are available now to begged retired NHS staff to return. We believe that the charities struggling with the loss of revenue? same must happen with social care staff. Chronic low On schools and education, I understand that schools pay in the care sector, with many paid just the minimum remain open to the children of key workers and to wage, means that staff have left for less stressful jobs in vulnerable children, but only if no safe alternative is retail and other sectors. Those workers need to be available. As for the universities sector, may I ask the brought back. They need the appropriate personal protective Minister about the fees that will have been paid by equipment and clothing, and they need proper recompense. students in further and higher education and what Many will have seen the devastating news from the refunds and deferments will be available? Manystudents—in Oaklands nursing home in the constituency of my hon. fact most students these days,because of tuition fees—work Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), where 16 of in term-time and during holidays, and that work will no the 20 residents and seven staff have coronavirus symptoms. longer be available to them. May I ask the Government I was most concerned about the reports that, despite immediately to reduce the interest rates on student debt pleading for it, the home has been unable to source the to zero for the duration of this crisis to assist those proper protective equipment. Just yesterday, my right students? hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and the On transport, what provision has been made by Her shadow Minister for social care, my hon. Friend the Majesty’s Treasury to refund lost revenue for transport Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), authorities, whether that is Transport for London or 269 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 270

[John McDonnell] solutions, because this virus respects no borders. By helping others globally, we help ourselves. By neglecting those that run bus services across the country? On others, we neglect ourselves. Will the Minister assure railways, I echo what my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary the House today that extra resources are being made of State for Transport has said: we back the measures through the international development budget to aid that will keep key workers and freight moving on our the poorest countries in combating this virus? railways during this crisis, which has exposed, as he I think we will look back at this period as an says, the fundamental weaknesses of the franchise model. unprecedented moment in our lifetimes. I know that May I also thank all the railway staff and bus workers this is already a tragic time for so many, and all of us who are keeping the essential parts of our country will be hurt by this, but I want us all to be able to look moving? Will the Minister assure us that all public back with pride about what we did in this period—to be facing railway staff will also have the appropriate personal able to say, “We widened who was covered by our safety protection equipment and clothing that they need? Can net when we had to. We protected people and their jobs the Minister tell us whether any consideration has been and wages. We cared for people around us. We provided given to making public transport free for key workers all the support that was needed and, as a result of that, who are risking their lives every day? NHS staff are we came through this all the stronger.” receiving free rail travel in Wales and a similar move is being rolled out in other countries, such as New Zealand. We would welcome that in this country. 3.52 pm Prisons were understaffed and overpopulated before Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): This this crisis. This is not just a question of resources but of Bill, as the Minister said, shows decisive leadership by safety. I welcome moves to escalate prisoner release the Government and, indeed, by the whole House. It is schemes for those who do not pose a threat to our supported by the Opposition parties. As the Minister society, but the probation service was in crisis before explained, this is really a cash flow Bill. It is not a this virus hit us and the lockdown announced yesterday provision at this juncture for the extra £266 billion of complicates matters even further. Can the House be Government spending for Departments; it is an advance assured that the police and the probation service will to those Departments. have every resource possible to keep people safe and to The first question I ask the Minister is, bearing in monitor those who need supervision? I welcome the mind the advance, what is the Treasury’s current estimate moves last week to release detainees from detention of how much extra it thinks it will be borrowing when centres due to health and safety concerns. Can the we come to estimates in July? That is something the Minister be clear about what extra resources are going House would like to consider and start thinking about. in to protect people’s health overall? Another point related to the fiscal and monetary I was brought up a Catholic. Our local parish priest management of this crisis, which I think this Government optimistically calls me a lapsed Catholic, so I welcome have done admirably, is whether the Treasury has done any sinner who repents. I therefore reach across the any thinking about the Government balance sheet, and divide and pay tribute to the hon. Member for St Austell in particular the balance sheet that will be looked at by and Newquay (Steve Double), who yesterday said that international sovereign investors. Bearing in mind that “many people who we considered to be low-skilled are actually this crisis is affecting every country in the world, have pretty crucial to the smooth running of our country”.—[Official they done any thinking with our partners on whether Report, 23 March 2020; Vol. 674, c. 17.] money spent relating to this particular crisis may be I also echo his call to the Home Secretary. The point has somehow itemised differently on the balance sheet, been made repeatedly by the shadow Home Secretary rather than just being lumped in with all the other and many of our Members on the Opposition Benches. Government spending that may have taken place? If we The hon. Gentleman asked for the new points-based could somehow delineate crisis spending and normal immigration system to be reviewed, in his words, spending, that may well help investors, this House and anybody else in the future in trying to assess the fiscal “to reflect the things that we have learnt during this time”.—[Official health of this country and others. I think that is something Report, 23 March 2020; Vol. 674, c. 17.] the Treasury should consider. Have the Government given any consideration to However, there is a broader issue here. This is obviously temporarily suspending no recourse to public funds, thought about as primarily a global health crisis, but which is blighting so many people’s lives, or to allowing many people think about the economic impacts, and temporary access to benefits for non-UK nationals so that is indeed correct. However, the health crisis and the that they can survive this period? That is important at a economic crisis are intertwined, and I will focus, as so time when more and more people are out of work and many in the House have today, on the self-employed, unable to travel. although this issue does not relate just to them. As a public service to all Conservative MPs, I say that This virus requires us to do social distancing, which is the market does not distribute wages fairly or efficiently a phrase all of us have become so familiar with, although in a capitalist society, and there is no correlation between I do not think any of us knew it existed up until two to pay rates and the social value of many jobs. If there is three months ago—all I can say is, bring back Brexit. To one lesson that we learn from this crisis, maybe that will save lives, we are having to shut down major parts of the be the one that lasts the longest. economy, and for people to save their own lives and the Just three weeks ago, I asked the Government to take lives of others, they are having to shut down their a lead internationally in tackling this virus. It is vital personal economic activity. These people have families, that we are engaged in all global health and political houses and responsibilities; if they do not feel that they forums and that we learn from best practice and share can meet those responsibilities, some may choose to 271 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 272 take the path we have asked them not to take. Some may put into all their portfolios or their portfolio businesses. choose to do the risky thing and not what they know to There is, therefore, a problem—a specific problem, but an be right, because they are caught in this difficult conflict important one, because although the number of the jobs between health and wealth. The job of any Government in the sector is about 6,000 to 10,000, these are the in a responsible society—indeed, this Government have companies that drive innovation and will drive the met this challenge—is to make sure nobody is faced creation of tens if not hundreds of thousands of jobs in with that choice. I think that principle has underpinned the future. Bearing in mind the Government’s ambition all of the response from the Treasury and should continue for the country, we need to safeguard these businesses to underpin it when the Treasury comes out with its as much as we can. proposals for self-employed workers. I have been discussing with many in the sector a I have a couple of specific questions for the Minister. proposal to join with the British Business Bank to put I have been contacted by many constituents who are together a £300 million not-for-profit fund—not a fund trying to use the business interruption loan scheme. that will take management fees or try to make any Could the limit on unsecured lending be extended above money—to invest in roughly 600 start-ups, to provide £250,000? Many constituents have told me that they working capital for nine or more months. I ask the have been asked for personal guarantees above that Financial Secretary or one of his colleagues to consider threshold by the banks. Quite understandably, many are meeting me and industry representatives to see whether not willing to provide personal guarantees. Indeed, one we can get that sort of thing going. It is a specific sector asked me, “Bim, would you give a personal guarantee of the economy, but an extremely important one. on a £500,000 or £1 million loan?” I said I could not say Everyone recognises the enormity of the challenge. in all honesty that I would. Will the Minister consider Everyone recognises the speed and complexity of what extending that threshold for unsecured lending above we have to do. The money in this short Bill is critical, £250,000—perhaps to £500,000 or £1 million? but in the coming days—especially if Parliament is to rise by the end of this week—we need to do what we can Kevin Hollinrake: That is an interesting point. The to improve the schemes as much as possible. Once position is not clear on the website, and it does need Parliament is out and does not sit for however long it clarification, but I think that loans over £250,000 are may be, it will be much harder for Members to do that. I ones that businesses could not get security for. This is ask the Minister to take those points into account. the Government standing behind businesses that do not have other forms of security. I think that below £250,000 4.2 pm is where people can ask for reasonable security. However, my hon. Friend’s point about a personal guarantee is Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): As many have key, because it will deter many people from applying for said in the course of several of our debates this week, it these loans. is vital that we continue to work across party lines in response to the crisis. I reiterate here and now my Bim Afolami: I thank my hon. Friend for that point. party’s support for the Chancellor’s economic package More broadly, the key question for the Minister is for firms and workers that was announced on Friday. whether the Treasury is willing to adapt the scheme over Our attitude as individual Members to Government the coming days and weeks as we hear more about the and what they should do, or even which Government distinct problems and difficulties that there may be with should do it, determines in large part where we choose it. That is not to quibble with the fundamentals of the to sit in this Chamber, but the debates taking place now scheme; it is a good scheme, and we need to recognise— are very much subordinate to the task of deciding how indeed, I want to put on record—the fact that it was put to use our collective legitimacy and authority to guide, together in record time. That is an incredibly difficult to direct and to steward the resources we are able to thing to do, and we need to give officials and Ministers make available to protect the citizens we were elected to credit for what they have managed to achieve, but let us this place to represent. These are quite unprecedented try to improve the scheme so that it can be useful to times, the likes of which none of us has seen in our more people, and addressing the issue I have raised is lifetime and which we all earnestly hope we will never one way of doing so. see again in this or anyother lifetime,but these extraordinary The final point I want to make is about tech start- times require extraordinary measures. We all know all ups—early-stage businesses. These are not necessarily too well that lives and livelihoods are at stake. Significant all over the country; they tend to be concentrated in policy changes in terms of support for the economy certain parts of the country. Indeed, I have several have already been announced, and yesterday this House people who work for them in my constituency. The hon. took further important steps to protect the public by Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) passing the Coronavirus Bill. Having made those changes cannot be here today, but I have been speaking with her, to governance and policy, it is necessary also to make and there are many of these companies in her constituency. provision to support those changes in terms of supply The nature of the support package that has been outlined through the Contingencies Fund. My party fully supports is not particularly helpful for this type of company, the steps that we are about to take to do that. because typically an early stage tech start-up deliberately Although economic activity in the country will, of incurs up-front losses as a result of heavy investment in necessity, be curtailed for the duration of our response research and product development. Such companies to the crisis, we need to maintain demand as far as it is tend to rely on equity rather than debt funding, so the possible to do so, and to be able to meet that demand package that has been put in place is less helpful to where we can. We also need to make sure that we are them. The investors that back them usually back several laying the foundations of recovery, so that it can take dozen such companies and do not have enough cash to place as soon as the scientific advice is consistent with 273 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 274

[Richard Thomson] statutory sick pay to the EU average, strengthening welfare protections, removing the bedroom tax and doing so. To that end, I commend to hon. Members the removing the rape clause. work the Scottish Government have undertaken, When it comes to our transport infrastructure, we particularly pledges of grants to support business and need to protect capacity. We saw yesterday welcome the offer of various business rates reliefs. interventions in the rail industry and the train operating The economic measures we take must give people the companies. My constituency contains Aberdeen airport, security to follow the very clear public health advice and the companies responsible for the ground operations that has been given by all the Governments on these there have been in touch with me. Support for the islands, and we very much welcome the distance the airlines is no doubt important, but so too is support for Chancellor has already travelled in introducing measures the airports and the people who work on the ground to to allow that to happen. However, we must recognise ensure that the activity can continue. Our airports will that, notwithstanding all that has already been done, be crucial in getting the country moving again once we not everyone either has or feels that they have the are through this crisis. We need to prepare for the financial security to stop working or, in many cases, the contingency of repatriations to the UK in the event that agency to tell an irresponsible employer that they will commercial airlines are not able to carry out that task. follow the Government’s clear advice to stay at home. We also need to be prepared to cover those whose On the further support we can offer, we need to be insurers will not pay out for coronavirus-related claims, doing something and more to support those on zero-hours whatever activity they relate to. contracts. We must also provide support for those who Those measures represent just some of what will have seen their hours reduced and are not involved in be necessary, but we need the resources in place to the Government’s furlough scheme. The Chancellor take them. and his team have been questioned closely today,including by me, about support for the self-employed. We must Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): It is right take the Chancellor and the Government at their word that the Government are bringing forward a whole that they are examining the details of a package and range of support packages, and my hon. Friend is right striving to present it to us as quickly as they can. to raise the other kinds of support that are needed. Does he agree that there is also a responsibility on There are 330,000 self-employed workers in Scotland. employers to engage constructively with this and to Although they may not always feel that they have the look after their staff? It might be understandable that ear of Government or that they are as visible as some of people placed on furlough receive an 80% cut in their the larger corporate entities in the business landscape, salary, but I am hearing reports from some of our they remain the backbone of our economy, and they colleagues who are not physically present with us today must not be left behind in the responses to this crisis. We that, for example, Newsquest publishers is preparing to will certainly watch very closely to ensure that they are cut the salaries of staff who are not being furloughed by not. between 15% and 20%. Does he agree that that kind of Despite the Chancellor’s answers earlier, the SNP practice by businesses that are going to benefit from the continues to believe that using the tax and welfare Government support is a very worrying practice? system to put money directly into people’s pockets through a universal basic income would be the simplest Richard Thomson: My hon. Friend makes an excellent and most straightforward way of getting crucial individual point. People will be watching very closely to see how financial support exactly where it needs to go. companies behave in this crisis and how they react to the support that is there. It is very clear that while some Bim Afolami: Does the hon. Gentleman regard universal companies have behaved very responsibly, with a real basic income as not desirable for the longer term and social conscience and with a sense of duty towards their advocate doing it only for a set period, or does he want staff, others are not behaving as creditably. I am sure we it for the longer term? will hear of more examples of that as time progresses. All the measures that have been outlined come at a Richard Thomson: I happen to believe that it would considerable commitment, but the costs—in financial be the best way to ensure that we deliver money to those terms, but, more importantly, in human terms—of doing who need it over the longer term. I do not view it as a nothing are very much greater to us than the costs of Trojan horse; I believe its merits would speak for themselves. intervening. The response to covid-19 is one that will But whether we believe in it ideologically or not, from a need all of us to make our own contribution. On behalf pragmatic perspective, it would certainly reduce much of my party, I pay tribute to the public servants, the of the red tape in getting financial resources where they charities and the many volunteers who will be working need to be. I do not think the issue of whether it should around the clock to keep people safe and comfortable exist in the long term needs to divide us; I think we over this period. I thank those in the private sector who could agree that it is how we can best deliver support are working so hard to keep other essential activities in over the period ahead of us. the supply chain under way, and all involved in all There are other areas of the economy that require spheres and tiers of government—local and national—who our attention. Although support for buy-to-let landlords will be helping to co-ordinate that activity in the days is welcome—I draw Members’ attention to my entry in and weeks ahead. the Register of Members’ Financial Interests; I rent out I will draw my remarks to a close by saying that it was a small flat myself—it would be more welcome if that important this week that we gave all those in those financial support went directly to tenants, which would spheres and tiers of government the political permission allow them security of tenure and keep that cash circulating to act as they need to in pursuit of the greater good. in the economy.Other potential measures include increasing This Bill provides the resource to underpin those 275 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 276 permissions, and subject to good choices being made The other element of the package is the business rate with the resource that is now available, it will also give grant scheme, which many businesses have welcomed. us the ability to support businesses and families through Of course, many self-employed people, including sole this most trying of times. The Bill has our support. traders and freelancers, are outside the scheme—a point that I will touch on in a second. 4.12 pm I want to raise one or two points about the business Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I am interruption loan scheme. Obviously we want as many delighted to speak in this debate and to follow the hon. businesses as possible to take advantage of the scheme, Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson), who made but one big concern is about security. The scheme is some salient points. I endorse his tribute to the NHS based on the enterprise finance guarantee scheme, which and to all our public sector workers. I do not know if included personal guarantees. I understand that the anybody has seen the news recently, but a terrible tragedy new scheme will not include them—I have been told has happened in Spain, where elderly people in care that from the Dispatch Box today on an urgent question— homes were abandoned and left to die in their care but it would be helpful if the British Business Bank homes by the staff. I cannot believe that would ever website said clearly that that is the case. It does not say happen in the UK, and I think it shows how brave many that at the moment, which could deter some people of the people working in our public sector are when from applying in the first place. All it says is that faced with these terrible crises. security can be taken I should first draw the House’s attention to my entry “At the discretion of the lender”. in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, as I I have had personal guarantees for most of my business always do on these occasions. As well as being a Member life, and I think most people would expect a business of Parliament trying to stand up for the interests of my person to have some skin in the game, but this is a constituents—many businesses have contacted me over different situation. It is very difficult to quantify the the last few days and weeks—I look at these matters impact of this crisis on a business. The Government from a business perspective. I have been involved in that have rightly stated that there will be no personal guarantees, business for 30 years, and when we had a board meeting which I assume means that people’s family homes should on Friday, the first conversation we had—I guess like not be put up for security either. That being the case, it many businesses—was not about cuts to the number of would be helpful to clarify that point, because that people we employ, but about how much we could cut would increase demand. our salaries as board directors by. I think most board The other point is that at the moment the banks directors have an appropriately sensible approach to eligible for that scheme number about 40, but there are this. We all know this is going to be a very difficult crisis many outside it. Those not eligible for the previous for many businesses. I pay tribute to the Treasury, the British Business Bank scheme, the EFG, will not qualify Chancellor and the Financial Secretary for putting together for access to the current scheme. Therefore, customers a package of support that is unheralded—not just in its of OakNorth, Aldermore or one of the many alternative size, but in its comprehensive nature and the speed with providers in the marketplace today cannot access the which it has been delivered. scheme. The normal process for applying for that scheme The job retention scheme in particular was a massive is somewhere between six and 18 months, which is relief to many business people. Back in 2008, we were clearly far too long. I think that the Treasury has faced with taking our workforce down from 200 people committed to try to accelerate that process—or the to 65 within 12 months, as the bottom fell out of our British Business Bank has—but it will still take a matter business and out of the market. The most destructive of weeks, and businesses cannot wait weeks for this aspect of that—aside from the terrible human cost of money. They need it in a matter of days. sitting down with people with whom one had worked in It is absolutely essential that we get that support to some cases for decades and telling them that the business businesses now, so I politely ask the Minister whether could no longer afford to employ them—was that it cost he will look at that and perhaps get the Bank of England a huge amount of money to make them redundant. to set up a new scheme directly with some of those That puts the business in a critical condition, which lenders, many of which are very bona fide lenders. Of means that more people have to be made redundant. I course, the right checks and balances have to be in do not begrudge anybody the redundancy payments place, but these are authorised, regulated banks, so it that were due, but for a private business that is a very would be good to ensure that all lenders can get finance difficult thing to have to do. to all customers. The job retention scheme insulates many businesses The other thing about how business will view this from that, because instead of having to lay people off or crisis is how long it is likely to last. Businesses are much make them redundant, the business can say to them, more likely to take a loan, from anywhere, if they think “You can stay at home at the moment. You’ll continue they can get through this and quantify the losses or how to be paid a fair amount to get you through this long their revenue will be affected. I worry about the short-term crisis, then we’ll bring you back into the current situation, because we are telling people that fold.” That eases the financial pressure on the business they can go to work as long as they cannot work from in an important way. It is a really excellent scheme. home and as long as they socially distance themselves There are of course some missing details, which I know when they get there. I think that was one reason for the we will get in good time, in particular whether earnings confusion and why Filey in my constituency and many will include things such as commission and whether the other beautiful market towns were packed out with Government payment will include things such as national visitors, who felt they could go to those beautiful places insurance. Many businesses have questions that I am and socially distance themselves while they were there, sure will be answered in good time. which clearly they cannot if there are too many people 277 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 278

[Kevin Hollinrake] I do a lot of work with the all-party group on fair business banking. Most bankers do the right thing—the there. It is the same in a workplace environment. I can vast majority of banks and bankers I meet and have see that, because of the uncertainty about who can banked with over more than 30 years in business have actually go to work—we have not restricted it to key looked after my business fairly. Clearly, that does not workers or essential workers, to my understanding—lots always happen, given the 2008 scandal in small business of people are building houses on construction sites and banking. It is time now for the banks to do the right whatever else they are doing. They are going to work thing and to work with the Government on the business because they cannot work from home and they feel they interruption scheme. can socially distance. From a business point of view, I would personally Another issue is that the rates that banks charge on prefer to have a complete lockdown for 30 days. We personal loans and overdrafts are not coming down, know that, in China, after a full lockdown for 14 days, despite the reduction in base rate—in fact, quite the cases peaked, and after 30 days, cases stopped, and all opposite. The Financial Conduct Authority,in its wisdom, the coffee shops, Starbucks, Apple and the car dealerships decided that everyone who had an overdraft should pay opened again. That gives us hope that we can tackle and the same whether it was an authorised overdraft or an defeat this virus within 30 days, if we do the right thing. unauthorised overdraft. It told the banks that they If we are equivocal about it and it is confusing, people could not penalise people for unauthorised overdrafts, will continue to go to work and continue to spread the so everyone has to pay the same. The rate for authorised virus. overdrafts used to be somewhere between 3% and 15%, and unauthorised overdrafts used to have a fixed daily From my business perspective, a short, sharp shock is charge and a much higher rate. So the banks made them much more appealing. I would know that, if I applied all the same, and here are the rates being charged today for a business loan from the new scheme, I could for authorised and unauthorised loans: First Direct, quantify how much I would need, if I had the confidence 39.9%; HSBC, 39.9%; Lloyds Banking Group, 39.9%; that the timescale would be limited in that way. Nationwide, 39.9%; and NatWest, 39.5%. It is simply I have a couple of other points that I think would be disgraceful. Everybody is paying the higher rate. It smacks useful. Ideally, the Government should not have to step of a cartel, as well as profiteering and overcharging. in to support businesses at any point in time. The markets should deliver that themselves, with finance Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Last Friday, four coming from banks or investors through to businesses. or five businesses in my constituency came to see me, Venture capital trusts have limits on how much they can looking for help because of the coronavirus. The first put into businesses—up to £5 million on an annual constituent told me that he had asked for his loans to be basis and £12 million as a lifetime limit into a particular reduced, but the bank—I will not say which one it business. Because of the unprecedented nature of this was—said, “No, what we’ll do is charge you £100 for crisis, it would be useful to double those limits so that each amount of money that you’ve borrowed, and then venture capital trusts, which invest in many good businesses, we’ll charge you interest at 6% on top of that.” Does the can see those businesses through a tough time. Otherwise hon. Gentleman agree that, in these difficult times, that they will not be able to get the extra money into those is totally outrageous? The banks should be there to businesses that they need. It could be a temporary help, not to take advantage. change, and it would potentially save many businesses. On the self-employed, we have understandably heard Kevin Hollinrake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for lots of calls for more help for the sole trader. Many that contribution, and indeed for all the work he does different people in my constituency have contacted me. on the all-party parliamentary group on fair business They desperately need some help, and I do understand banking and for the many speeches he has made on the that. Within that cohort are some very vulnerable people, matter. I absolutely agree. The two best things that I including mortgage prisoners. I have corresponded with have heard the Treasury say over the past two weeks—and many mortgage prisoners, as have other hon. Members, there have been many—are, “We will do whatever it and many are self-employed. They are in a particular takes” and, “We are all in this together.” The banks situation in that their earnings are being very badly should take that approach as well. I and many other damaged now, and they have been paying huge mortgage Members of the House will be watching to make sure rates for too long. Many of the mortgage prisoners’ that this time the banks do the right thing and restore loans have been sold to non-UK lenders—inactive their reputation. lenders—and the regulatory oversight of those lenders is much reduced compared with UK lenders. In my John McDonnell: The hon. Gentleman has done some view, it is an absolute disgrace that we allow UK mortgage sterling work on this, so would he like to comment on customers’ loans to be sold to a foreign entity, over the figures that are coming out on 6 April and the which we do not have the same oversight, so we cannot interest rates for overdrafts from HSBC, First Direct, properly control the activities of those lenders. We need M&S Bank and TSB? Nationwide have already gone to bring all those lenders within the same regulatory there, with an increase from 9.99% to 39.9%. What does scope. Some of those mortgage prisoners are on very he think about that? high standard variable rates of around 5%, and even up to 6%. It is simply unfair . A year or two ago, we Kevin Hollinrake: I think it is an absolute disgrace. I brought in a standard variable rate cap in the energy do not think that the FCA saw it coming, which is one sector. I wonder whether the Minister could look to do of the flaws of the regulator. The FCA has been criticised the same thing in this sector to ensure that those people many times in this place, including by the right hon. are treated fairly. Gentleman. It told the banks, “Right, you’re not going 279 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 280 to charge anybody any more than anyone else is.” But and we all welcomed it, but I keep hearing stories of that let them all put their rates up to the highest level. It small businesses that find that, if they can get through is exploitative and absolutely outrageous. to the bank—by the way, it is taking quite a long time, The banks need to look at this as a sector and start to although that is not a complaint, because of course a treat their customers fairly, which of course is a basic lot of people are contacting the banks and I expect they requirement of the principles of banking, so the FCA are extremely busy—they have to give personal guarantees. should step in and look at this. In fact, I think it should At a time when it is very difficult for people to know be the subject of an inquiry by the Competition and how their business is going to pan out—how can they Markets Authority. The fact that the rates are not just know that in such an uncertain certain time?—no one high, but all the same, smacks of directors getting their right mind would give those sorts of personal together in a room and agreeing a figure. It cannot be a guarantees. It is just not realistic for them to put their coincidence that all the rates are exactly the same in this house and the whole family’s income and savings on the supposedly competitive market. line. The Government are going to have to think again about the terms of the loan guarantee scheme. These On commercial loans, it is right that the Government are unusual times and the Government have made have negotiated with the banks to give mortgage holidays, money available; rather than just giving a guarantee to which of course have to be paid back but nevertheless the financial institution, they will have to find a way to give borrowers vital breathing space. I think the same is transfer that guarantee to the business concerned. I true of some commercial loans, but the banks are know there are huge moral hazards with that—I get saying, “We’ll give you a holiday only on the payment that—but if they do not, it is not going to work. of the principal, not the interest.” Those paying for a commercial loan are paying much more on the interest Bim Afolami: On that point, has the right hon. Gentleman than they are on the principal, which again seems come across the same thing as I have? I have found that grossly unfair if we are all in this together. the people who have been asked to give personal guarantees We are going to work together to try to get through are often the ones with the lowest debt—indeed, no this, so I call on the banks to look at this again, to be debt—in their businesses, and the people who have fair and to rebuild their reputation. The final way they found it easier are those who already have a big debt could do that is by suspending legal action, certainly in facility with a bank that can be easily extended. It is relation to residential repossessions but also for almost a double punishment for those who have been repossessions against businesses. They should show prudent in managing their small businesses so far. forbearance and use the business banking resolution service—I am one of the people who have been working Sir Edward Davey: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely on that in recent months—which will be like a super right. It is that old saying, “If you borrow a lot, you are ombudsman for banking disputes. They should defer able to borrow more,” whereas those people who have any issues they have with their customers until that run things prudently are finding it a problem. This is a service is properly established, so that those complaints really crucial issue and the Government must give it can be resolved fairly—fair to the bank and fair to the some urgent attention. In the exchanges on the urgent customer. question that I asked earlier on the self-employed, there were some welcome statements about the loans being 4.29 pm available to sole traders and the self-employed more widely, but I do not think they will be able to access Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): It them, because they will not be able to give those sorts of is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Thirsk and personal guarantees. Given that cash-flow is going to be Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). He made two points with king, certainly until the Government come up with a which I wish strongly to agree. First, I agree on the need solution for the self-employed, they will have to have for clarity on people who can go to work: who are the access to some money. If that is just a loan on their essential workers? The issue is causing huge concern. If personal bank account, with the interest we have been there are too many people on public transport because talking about, that is not going to work for people. we are not leaving it for the essential workers, that is bad People are going to be in real trouble. I welcome what for the whole public objective of stopping the virus the Government have done, but they need to look at spreading. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right on how it is operating in practice—and look at it fast. that. The bad news is that people are almost going to be People out there remember what happened in the forced to stay at home anyway because business is financial crisis. They remember that this House said, collapsing. Let us take the construction industry, which across party lines, that we must bail out the banks—that the hon. Gentleman talked about. I am getting messages the banks could not collapse and the financial system telling me that because mortar supplies are basically had to keep going. They were pretty upset, because a lot collapsing, people will not be able to do any construction. of them took cuts in their own income and then saw That shows Members how dramatic is the impact of that although some bankers lost their jobs—we knowledge what is happening out there. There should be clarity that—many did not, and the banking system sort of from the Government on that because leadership is recovered and looked like it was treated with quite a lot important. of generosity through our taxpayers’ money. When we The second thing on which the hon. Gentleman is hear stories now about ordinary people who have put right—I really want to impress this upon those on the their lives into building their businesses not getting help Treasury Bench, and we have heard other colleagues from the banks because the banks are getting in the talk about it already—is the genuine accessibility of the way, I have to tell the banks that they have to sort loans that have been made available via the Bank of themselves out, because this House will not be able to England. The Government trumpeted their announcement resist the political pressure. We need the banks in our 281 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 282

[Sir Edward Davey] expenditure because we need one—for the health service, our social care system and other parts of our public society, right? No one is suggesting that they do not services that need the cash now. play a critical role, but if at this stage, after we helped I have another question for the Minister. If these them out 10 years ago, the banks do not come to the contingencies are being given to Departments so that rescue of small businesses, sole traders, the self-employed they have the cash they need, is the money also being and ordinary people, they will reap a whirlwind. I really given to local authorities? I want to underline this worry about that, because I believe in the banking point: local authorities are on the frontline now, and system, but the banks have got to step up to the plate. they are having to spend money all the time on a whole range of things that are completely unbudgeted for. Bim Afolami: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for They are confused about the proposals for business giving way again. Is it not also important to recognise rates, whether they are going to get any income in, what the nature of the schemes—that is, that they were put in money they have to give out and all the rest of it. Local place by the Treasury, the banks and the Bank of authorities are slightly unclear about what is happening. England all working together? The terms on which the I hope that there will be genuine desire and action on banks are operating were agreed by all of them, so we behalf of the Treasury to get some money out—on need to ensure that all those parties—the Treasury, the account, if you like—to them so that they have the cash Bank of England and the banks—collectively realise flow to ensure that they can provide the extra services what needs to happen, rather than us necessarily saying that they are being asked to provide. It is essential that that it is just the banks that are making it difficult; the we hear that local authorities are getting the support structures and the terms are actually very important. that the Whitehall Departments seem to be getting. I said that I also wanted to talk about the supply Sir Edward Davey: The hon. Gentleman makes a process. This legislation is part of the almost anachronistic really important point, and backs up the thrust of what supply process in this House. I am afraid that I am a bit I am trying to say. The banks have been given access to of a geek on this. In 2000, I wrote a pamphlet called free money. They are being looked after by the Bank of “Making MPs Work For Our Money: Reforming England through this extension of the Bank of England’s Parliament’s Role In Budget Scrutiny”. It is a cure for balance sheet, so they are doing okay. So why are they insomnia, so I do not necessarily suggest people read it, not stepping up to help the rest of the economy? There but in it I tried to argue that this House does not really are some really quite serious questions on this issue. I have sovereignty over the Budget. We look at these Bills hope that the Government say in response to this debate when they come along and we nod them through, but that they, the Bank of England and the Financial our processes of examining draft budgets and estimates Conduct Authority are going to look at this situation, are shocking. In my pamphlet, I made the comparison because it is just not good enough. I want to work on a with all the OECD countries, and this House has the cross-party basis on this issue, as the hon. Member for worst processes for examining draft budgets and measures Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) said; this is vital such as this Bill—that is worrying. I do not wish to to all of us, and we need to send a message to those who resurrect the Brexit debate, but it was supposed to be are running the banks that we are expecting them to about parliamentary sovereignty and I used to say, “I step up. It is time that they did their duty, right? wish we had some.” That is because this House rarely, if ever, looks at the estimates properly, analyses them in I actually want to come to my speech, because that Select Committees and makes proposals about draft was just a response to the hon. Member for Hitchin and spending decisions. Other Parliaments do those things Harpenden (Bim Afolami). I want to talk about the Bill quite easily—the Swedish and New Zealand Parliaments in front of us—I know that is a bit unusual—as well as are good models. Our approach undermines the value the supply process of which it is a part, and then I will for money and undermines what we are here for, and we give some thoughts on the economy. really need to look at the estimates procedure. On the Bill, will the Minister tell us why the Treasury That is why this Bill looks so weird in many ways; it is chose to change the percentage limit of the contingencies called the Contingencies Fund Bill and we are not used fund, which is normally set at 2% of total authorised to doing this sort of thing, because we have given up expenditure in the preceding year, to 50% until the end control over supply—it is just nodded through. The last of 2020-21? In absolute figures, the amount before this time MPs voted against a spending request of the Bill would have been £10.7 billion. That has gone up to Government was in 1919, more than 100 years ago We £266 billion. I hope that the Minister can explain why. It have given up properly controlling the draft estimates. does not seem unreasonable, given the pressures on Although I will be supporting the Bill tonight, because Departments, but it is quite a big change. I am not it is really important that we let this one through, I just against it—let me be clear that I will be supporting the want to say to the Minister that I hope we can reflect on Bill today—but it would be good to put on the record, this. I raised this issue when I was in government and for the House and for history, why that figure has been tried to get the then Chancellor to look at it. There was chosen. When people look at this situation in the future, a flurry of excitement and then the dead hand of the they will need to know why that decision was taken. Treasury said, “No way, we are not giving up control.” That was the wrong move, because control can be The Minister said in his opening remarks that this exercised with greater transparency. I hope that that was not an increase in expenditure. Well, I hope that he may be one thing that comes from this experience in this meant to say that it is an increase in expenditure in that emergency situation. it takes account of commitments that the Chancellor Let me end with some reflections on the economy, has made both in the Budget and since the Budget. If I where we are at and the lessons we are taking. I talked have understood correctly, there is a big increase in about the importance of the banks really delivering, 283 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 284 given the agreement with the Government and the Bank works with the market is really important. What I mean of England. That is probably the most essential message by that is that there is an assumption that the market from me tonight. There are some longer-term things can do it all, that the market is fantastic and that and possibly some relatively short-term things to address, Governments should come out of the way, but markets one of which is the way we do the Bank of England’s only exist because of Governments. Regulations and quantitative easing. That is monetary policy, where we laws make markets and there have always been those. are, in effect, printing money and sending it out. That happened after the 2008 crash and it is happening now. Kevin Hollinrake indicated dissent. I am not against it, but I just say that the way it works is not some sort of technical, politically neutral, value-neutral Sir Edward Davey: The hon. Gentleman is shaking system; it has implications for economic equality in this his head. Without rules and regulations on competition, country, because the money tends to go to people in the on fair play for employees and on consumer protections, City—the financial institutions. It does not go to ordinary markets will not work. Where there is no consumer people and ordinary businesses. So if we are going to protection, consumers do not have faith in the products get things right this time and have quantitative easing, I and services being provided, so the markets cannot urge the Minister to let us have a debate about how work. I absolutely think that we need to reflect on that, those mechanisms actually work, because in crises we because I do not think that the model has been working do not want economic inequality worse; we want to well enough. I will end on that comment, because I make it better. These technical things sound as though hope that we will learn from this and have a proper they are available only for pointy-heads in the Treasury, debate about how our economy will work in future. but quantitative easing is a political issue and we have not debated that. It has massive social and economic consequences, and we need to make sure that there is 4.47 pm democratic accountability on them, and that they are Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): I rise to speak on the properly understood and work in the interests of society. Contingencies Fund, not least because the Isles of Scilly transport system—I have mentioned this once already Kevin Hollinrake: Has that not been solved to some today—is desperate for a contingencies fund. I will set extent with the job-retention scheme, because the out why,and then how,local departments and Government Government will issue bonds to fund that scheme, they Departments might help with their own contingencies will be bought by asset managers and the QE will buy fund. those assets off the asset managers? That is the circular nature of that scheme. So this time round, as the Prime The Isles of Scilly is 28 miles off Land’s End; 2,200 Minister said a few days ago, the support would be people live there and depend on the transport system directed at the people, in terms of keeping them in work for everything they need. The transport system is entirely and in pay, rather than simply funding the banks. To a run by private operators, with no help from the state—we certain extent, this time QE does support jobs and real have been working to try to address that. The community people. on Scilly rely on this transport for absolutely everything, including, in some cases, non-emergency medical travel. Sir Edward Davey: The hon. Gentleman has a point Much of the transport serves the remote population and he is right to take me up on that. I think that there all year round. There is aviation, freight transport and is an improvement, but I do not think we have debated inter-island transport, which includes the school bus this in the context of QE and the monetary side of the and transport for free bus pass holders and everybody policy response. I think we need to do that, because we else who needs to move between the five inhabited need to unpick some deep issues here and I do not think islands all year round. That is made possible only by the this House has understood that. Although I am a big vibrant, successful tourism sector, which ordinarily starts fan of the independent Bank of England, and I do not with vigour this week. Many Members tell me, “I have think we should interfere with the setting of interest just been on my holidays on the Isles of Scilly”. They rates, I do think QE raises some political questions will understand how remote but how precious this set of which are not technical and require accountability. islands are. As we expected, the demand for tourism has collapsed Bim Afolami: On QE and how that would be done, we dramatically, and rightly so, but so far in all the measures must make sure that it does not become too inflationary, that have been announced, very few actually help. For that being the problem if we have a distribution network example, the help with wages is based on the figure for straight to the real economy without mediating it through the previous month. As we start the tourism industry banks. on Scilly now, there is no record of wages for the previous month. If we lose these people, who have the Sir Edward Davey: I half agree with the hon. Gentleman, right kind of skills and tickets to operate on these boats, but I do not think inflation is going to be the problem; the boats and vessels cannot continue to work, even people have not got any money. This form of QE is when we get past the coronavirus outbreak. often called helicopter money and perhaps that is the I listened very carefully to the Chancellor’s response right move now, and we need to be debating it. to a question I raised earlier, knowing full well that the I have a final comment to make and then I will sit measures so far do not really help with any of the issues down. When we reflect in a few months on this crisis faced by the transport operators on Scilly. He suggested and what has gone on, we will have to look at some of that local authorities are in a position to help, and that the underlying assumptions of our economic models. I is welcome. This is where I get on to the issue of a am not saying that we should rip them up—I do not contingencies fund for Government Departments. Will believe that at all—but how the state underpins and the Secretary of State confirm that the Council of the 285 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 286

[Derek Thomas] people will undoubtedly face in this situation. I ask the Minister to ensure that charities are given the funding Isles of Scilly, Cornwall Council and the Department that they need. for Transport have a contingencies fund to underwrite While I am on my feet and I have, I hope, the the running costs of each of the operators serving Scilly Minister’s ear, I put in a plea for funding for the so that they can survive this difficult period and be there self-employed, particularly those in what I would call to be part of the recovery,once we have beaten coronavirus? microbusinesses—the dance schools, the musicians, the The truth is that if any of these operators collapse, the driving instructors and the pest controllers—who are state will have to step in, and it is not for the state to run contacting me, even as I have been sitting here, to say, “I these essential services, in my understanding. It is far just don’t know what I am going to do.” They not only better to enable them to survive these three or four have no income, but they do not qualify for the various months, or however long it may be. grants and loans. They are left trying to claim universal This is a critical issue for very many families and credit, but the huge backlog of claims means that, with business owners, and more clarity is needed from a the best will in the world, no payments will be made Government who have rightly said—I have supported quickly.So many of them have contacted me in desperation them from the outset—that they would do whatever is in the last couple of weeks. They have lost not only their needed, and whatever it takes. Will the Minister please main income but their future business, and they will take this to the Treasury and find out what can be done have to rebuild from the start. Can the Minister press quickly to ensure that these businesses last even beyond the Chancellor to provide funding for that group of the end of this month? The situation is critical. people? Finally, I want to flag funding for transport services. 4.50 pm The coronavirus has produced a huge change in the usage of our transport systems, which are vital for the Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): I want to touch briefly on future. I know that many transport authorities are the situation of charities and their funding in the context looking at how they can maintain transport services, of coronavirus. I am aware that charities have already but it is important that we work sympathetically and been in conversation with the Ministry of Housing, flexibly to maintain our public sector transport system. Communities and Local Government about funding to allow them to assist in responding to the crisis. So many people face huge need and social isolation. Just some of 4.55 pm the factors affecting those people are funding for food Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): I want to banks, which is falling because of the current situation, start by echoing the sentiments expressed by my hon. as are donations; funding for listening services; and Friends, and particularly my right hon. Friend the funding for care services, which are needed more than Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). they have ever been. The urgent need for provisions to support the self-employed Charities face huge challenges, and they, too, need gets greater by the day, and my concern is that desperation contingency funding measures if they are to survive and is turning to anger. The “What about us?” sentiment assist our communities as we face this challenge. Many will be driving that anger, understandably, and making of them are losing income because of the need to close the situation a whole lot worse. I urge Ministers to bring their charity shops and the cancellation of fundraising that support forward. events. Will the Minister confirm that charities should be eligible for the same business interruption measures We are also promised support for renters in both the as other business organisations? Will he look again at social sector and private rented sector. That has not the trading income threshold, which, as I understand it, happened yet. Again, as days and weeks go by, the requires 50% of income to come from trade? desperation and uncertainty become greater, and I urge Ministers to bring that forward. My right hon. Friend Charities need a stabilisation fund to help them to was right about the Government apparently going back stay afloat and assist our communities, and I hope that on a commitment to bring forward provisions to ban that will be made available to our charities in the evictions. If someone is evicted, where are they going to context of this contingency funding. Will the Minister go at the moment? There is no reason at all why that confirm that they will be eligible for support to pay provision should not be brought forward. If we are their staff, as other employers are? It is vital that we serious that people have to stay at home, let them stay at retain the infrastructure of our charities if we are to get home by making sure that they are not evicted. It shows through this situation and survive into the future. either misjudgment in making the promise in the first There must be emergency funding for frontline charities place, or misjudgment and bad faith in breaking that that are supporting the response to coronavirus to promise. I urge Ministers to take that back to the Prime ensure that they can remain afloat and provide that Minister and ask him to make a change. service. I am aware that my hon. Friend the Member for My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Liz Twist) Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft) has written to the was absolutely correct in what she said about charities. Chancellor of the Exchequer about that, and I hope he In Cheshire West and Chester, we have brought together will respond thoughtfully and positively to the points Cheshire West and Chester Council, West Cheshire that she has made. Voluntary Action and lots of charities and church We face a huge issue as we move, quite rightly, into groups to try to provide a co-ordinated service to all greater social isolation. Charities such as Age UK those who need support at the moment. But as my hon. Gateshead, which covers my constituency,and Samaritans Friend said, the charities are running out of money have a real and positive role to play in countering the because their commercial activities are running down, mental strain of loneliness and isolation, which many which is affecting their income. That is calling into 287 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 288 question their ability to deliver services to the most could not get back up and running for four or six vulnerable, which they do much of the time and which months and that insurance companies should ensure is often taken for granted. Right now, with everyone that their policies kick in. expected to stay at home, the ability of charities to deliver those services is perhaps limited anyway, but as Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Ind): this situation hopefully gets better, we will look to The hon. Gentleman talked about the future and how charities to get those services up and running straightaway. we recover and rebuild after the crisis has passed, but At the moment, without the support for charities, their does he agree that things have changed utterly and that ability to do that is diminished. footing the bill for covid-19 in the years ahead cannot fall to the people, and that the banks certainly should Kevin Hollinrake: May I take the hon. Gentleman not be rewarded, as the right hon. Member for Kingston back to his point on rented accommodation? He is right and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) suggested, with that at the moment, all landlords should show forbearance quantitative easing? It is important that we get this when people are in difficult financial circumstances, right. When we start to rebuild, it is important that and the Coronavirus Bill will increase the notice period people and organisations that have avoided and evaded to end an assured shorthold tenancy from two to three tax are called to pay their fair share. months. He is a fair man, so does he agree that we must be fair to both sides? If a tenant is unfairly withholding Christian Matheson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for rent from a landlord, and it takes eight months to get a his intervention. The world will change, but only if we case to court at the moment, that is not very fair on the lead and makethat change ourselves.As regards quantitative landlord. We have to be fair to both sides. easing, which the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) mentioned, I would be Christian Matheson: I do accept that, but that would happy to give all that money to local authorities and let be the case in normal circumstances anyway. We are them spread it out to places that really need it. talking about giving people peace of mind during this The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, who is a national crisis and ensuring that people do not even good friend, and has respect across the House for his have to live with the worry of being chucked out on the work on the all-party parliamentary group on fair business street or into temporary accommodation. That is my banking, is right to talk about the banks, not only now, concern. but in the future, when this is all over. We must ensure that they do not get up to the same games by looking at My right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and businesses and saying, “Your income’s declined, so we’ll Harlington reflected on his childhood in Liverpool and start foreclosing on some of your assets.” That has on his priest considering him to be a lapsed Catholic. happened before. I call on Ministers to give close attention That reminded me of my mum and dad, who also grew to the way that banks operate, not only now,but afterwards, up in Liverpool, albeit a couple of decades or more and ensure that they play their part. before my right hon. Friend. The formative period of their childhood was the second world war, when they In this crisis, there will be heroes and villains. We will were both young children, suffering the bombings in remember the heroes and we will also remember the Liverpool and the uncertainty of the war. We all know villains. I call on employers such as banks and insurance that the second world war in Europe ended formally on companies not to make their staff go to work if they are 7 May 1945, but my mum and dad did not know in a vulnerable group. I am getting complaints from that—they had no idea when the hostilities would end constituents that they are being forced to go to work. and things might start to get better. Listening to my Mike Ashley and Mr Wetherspoon should not flout right hon. Friend, I reflected that that is the situation in Government advice just because their bottom line might which we find ourselves now. be affected. We will remember the villains. I say, “Don’t be a villain at the end of this” because hopefully, those We have no idea how long this crisis is likely to last. companies and corporations will receive the short shrift That uncertainty drives desperation, anxiety and as the they deserve. hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) and my good friend the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) said, business uncertainty. 5.4 pm That is why it is essential that the Government are clear Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Desperation was in their statements and oblige other businesses—we the word used a number of times by my hon. Friend the have talked about the banks; I want to consider insurance Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) and, companies—to ensure that they play their part. If we prior to him, my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon cannot plan ahead, we will not know how to address the (Liz Twist). It sums up the feeling of many people for problems,and it cannot simply be down to the Government. many reasons. I think it also underpins what the hon. I make that point because insurance companies are Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) not living up to their obligations. I know of businesses did. I wish he was two metres from the Minister to in Chester that have been told that their business demonstrate good social distancing in this place. He contributions to insurance do not apply because coronavirus was right. This debate is about improving the schemes was not a notifiable disease at the time of the outbreak as far as we are able to do so, as part of our contribution or because the Government had only suggested, as was to scrutinising the Bill. the case last week, that events did not take place rather My first point, which was mentioned by my right than saying that they must not take place. As I mentioned hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington at Question Time, for events, conferences and sports (John McDonnell), is about construction sites. We have that have a long lead-in time to prepare, it would help if all seen the pictures, and some of us have passed examples the Government were clearer now that those businesses today, of construction workers working in big numbers 289 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 290

[Bill Esterson] vast sum of money that the Government are making available provides the opportunity to look at some of in close proximity. That cannot be right and it is certainly the other costs for businesses to see whether there can not what was intended by the Prime Minister’s guidance. be help beyond that suggested for employees. Grants Perhaps the Minister can take that point on board and are certainly a part of that. Given how long this situation consider how that situation might be prevented. It is a might last, the size of the grants will need to be constantly very serious matter, not just for those workers but in reviewed so that they are sufficient. terms of spreading the virus elsewhere. We must all remember that, even if we are fit and healthy and do not Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Gentleman makes a very become sick ourselves, it is not about the individual, but good point about grants. The biggest grant, of course, is who we pass it on to. the job retention scheme—that is a grant. It is Government On banks and loans, the problem, as has been stated funded, and there is no requirement for employers to by a number of Members, is that loans mean debt which pay anything towards it unless they want to do so, and cannot be repaid without the certainty of an income. they can top it up to that 20%. Therefore, will he My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester just concede that the scheme is a very important initiative by made the point about us not knowing the end date. If the Government and that it will be welcomed by many people do not know the end date, they will not be able businesses? to plan to pay the loans back. That is a real problem. If we then add on the uncertainty of having to provide Bill Esterson: Absolutely.It is important, and I certainly personal guarantees, it becomes extremely problematic welcome it. None the less, there are some challenges for many businesses to take advantage of the loan with it. The fact that it is not available for the March scheme. The suggestions made by Members for how the payroll is a big problem for many businesses. We have loan scheme might operate are really important, and it already seen a significant number of businesses close is really important that the Government go away and and many workers laid off who will not now be eligible look into them. to be part of that scheme. The Government, totally On the behaviour of banks, in other debates we have understandably, have used examples of furlough schemes heard descriptions of pharmacists and food retailers elsewhere in the world, but it will be difficult for the hiking up prices. The banks are doing exactly the same scheme to deal with the nature and the scale of this thing with interest rates. That cannot be allowed to crisis. continue. I thought the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) was going to suggest John McDonnell: What we were trying to establish in nationalising the banks as a way forward. He was at one our discussions with the Government last week was stage channelling his inner Marxist for the benefit of equality of sacrifice. Yes, workers and the Treasury have some in the Chamber. [Interruption.] There is agreement realised that there will have to be some sacrifice, but we from my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and were expecting some contribution from employers Harlington on the Front Bench. The point is that the themselves. An hour ago, 400 workers at Tristar in my taxpayer bailed out the banks. People paid the money constituency were laid off. Those 400 drivers were told back through higher interest rates in the financial crisis. that they will get paid 80% of their wages by the They are now about to repeat that behaviour at a much Government and they have been laid off for three more dangerous and difficult time in our history. There months. We expected the employers to contribute to has to be intervention by the Treasury, in whatever that 20%, but, in this case, that will not be paid. The shape or form, to prevent that and to ensure that the crisis is falling on the shoulders of workers, rather than banks behave responsibly, provide support and do not on businesses. There is no equality of sacrifice in a put apply onerous terms, whether through personal number of these companies, some of which are being guarantees or ultra-high extortionate rates of interest. ruthless. There is also the trust issue. Businesses do not want to borrow because of their past experiences. During the Bill Esterson: My right hon. Friend highlights the financial crisis when I was running a business, I had the fact that some employers do not behave in a way that we experience of having my overdraft facility recalled overnight. should be able to expect them to behave given the We were lucky that we were able to cover that out of nature of the crisis. We have heard other examples of personal savings, but very many businesses were not large companies behaving in a way that is irresponsible able to do so and went to the wall. People suffered and, frankly, downright wrong. grievously—some took their own lives. We have debated In addition to what my right hon. Friend says about that many times in this Chamber, and we do not want a employers not paying the 20% element of the wage repeat of that over the coming months and years after replacement scheme and taking advantage of it, it is the immediate crisis has passed. I therefore urge the also the case that, for employers who wish staff to go on Government to intervene now to get that right. to short-time or part-time working, or reduced hours of As well as taking advantage of the Government’s some sort, the scheme does not apply. There is a real employee retention scheme, businesses will need to pay challenge for businesses in those categories, too. additional costs such as rents and insurances. My hon. That brings me on to the self-employed and this point Friend the Member for City of Chester made the point about desperation. People are desperate now. We have that businesses are being told that they do not qualify debated that a number of times today and over the past for business continuity insurance. The same applies to few days as well. I just do not get the sense of urgency in income protection for the self-employed and small business this place. We are in here, and away from the real world. owners, because this disease did not exist when their The same applies with Whitehall. I just think that, policies were written. Those issues need attention. The sometimes, people here do not have a sense of just how 291 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 292 desperate things are when two members of the same is important that we talk about its different elements. household are both self-employed and have no money. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and They cannot put food on the table. When the Chancellor Harlington (John McDonnell) set out, the official says, as he did this morning, that he is worried about the Opposition support the Bill, but it elicits substantial scheme for self-employed going to wealthy people, I say, questions. The first is about the different aspects of the as indeed did the right hon. Member for Kingston and expenditure; the second is about the process for delivering Surbiton in his urgent question, let us not make the it; the third is about the process for overseeing it; and perfect the enemy of the good. Let us get a scheme in the fourth is about the Bill’s role in relation to the rest of place and let us make it comparable with what the the financial decision making cycle. I will try to touch Government have offered to employees. on those aspects briefly. I want to say just a word or two about food supply First, we have had a wide-ranging debate on the and how the fund might apply there. There will be measures. I will be very brief, so I will not be able to challenges around security of food supply; obviously, pick up on every issue that was covered. There has been given the closing down of international transport links, discussion of NHS and social care spending. We still that will be a challenge. We heard about the pressures require more transparency about the additions to that on supermarkets. Some of the behaviour in supermarkets spending, particularly around the targeting of PPE has been completely unacceptable, and the same applies and testing. As the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard to pharmacies. I hope that some of this money will go Thomson) said, there are still many issues on social to ensuring security of deliveries, to protecting retail security. For example, we have no clarity about exactly workers, to making sure that food and medicine get to what the hardship funds provided by local authorities those who most need it, and to helping pay for deliveries. will be spent on. Will it be just council tax relief, or The same applies to the supply of PPE, which hon. will it be more? We really feel the lack of the social Friends have spoken about. fund here. The right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton is Of course, the problems for renters continue, as was right to raise the issue of helicopter money; at some rightly pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for point, that is something that the Treasury should consider. City of Chester (Christian Matheson). As my hon. Any scheme, whether on PPE, food or access to funds, Friend the Member for Blaydon (Liz Twist) said, many is only as good as the information out there, the awareness issues faced by charities are not dealt with by the of the scheme, and the immediacy of access to it. The sources of support that have been announced recently. I Government need to do much more to ensure that hope that the Minister listened to her recommendations people know what is available in all those areas. The and will take them up. gov.uk website will carry that information, but lots of people and businesses do not know that it is there. We have had a lot of debate about self-employment. We need those measures put in place as soon as possible. There is a real imperative on the Government to work There was discussion about the scope of the measures, much harder on the information that is getting out and the idea of not funding those self-employed people there, and on access to what is being offered. Television who already have resources. Weseem to have one approach and radio will lose their commercial advertising; there is for the goose and another for the gander. For example, a great opportunity to replace it. I can give an example the system of loans is not conditional, whereas in some of the power of really good advertising: the video put other countries it has been conditional on certain activities together by the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust undertaken by the firms. We need to be fair. respiratory department. It was one of the most powerful pieces of advertising about the need for people to stay On salary support, as the hon. Member for Thirsk at home that I have ever seen. The BBC showed it; I and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) said, it is essential that think Sky might have, too; and it had viral attention on we keep as many people in work as possible. My party social media. The Government need to produce advertising strongly agrees with him and has pushed for this measure. of that quality to demonstrate what is available in a It is terrible for people if they lose their job, and terrible range of areas across society. Some of this money can for the company because of all the associated costs and be used to deliver on that agenda. Information and disruption. Weneed responsible behaviour from companies. proper access will ensure the most effective use of this We do not want to be talking about the villains after enormous necessary injection of funding. they have committed their villainy; we need the Government to call them out and to act. The Health Secretary did so The debate has been an opportunity to bring together eventually in relation to Sports Direct, but we need the issues. I hope that the Financial Secretary will take action much more quickly. them to all his colleagues across Government, as appropriate. It is interesting that the right hon. Member We need more clarity about vulnerable workers. We for Kingston and Surbiton said that 1919 was the last still have pregnant women and people with severe asthma time there was this sort of scrutiny; that was the year of being told they have to go to work, they do not have any the Spanish flu pandemic. We will not vote against the choice. Clear guidance is needed on that and on insurance. measure this time, but let us hope that, this time, it is We need clarity on support for specific industries, as effective, and that the money gets through as quickly the hon. Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas) said, as possible. talking about transport and the travel industry in the Scilly Isles. He is right that that is a critical problem. As 5.17 pm my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Sir George Howarth) said, talking about the construction industry, Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): This we need more pressure from Government on the critical has been a very wide-ranging debate on a Bill that, issue of safety at work. What we are seeing all around though very short, is of course critically important, so it us is immensely disturbing. 293 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 294

[Anneliese Dodds] HMRC’s lack of capacity. We really need to get a grip on many of the developments in the labour market over Again, we need more clarity on the business interruption recent years that are making the response more difficult— loan scheme. Are personal guarantees required or not? not least the growth in bogus self-employment. If they are, when are they required? We have to ensure Many people are sacrificing an enormous amount to that a clear message comes through on that and on the try to deal with this crisis and ensure that its impact is British Business Bank and how quickly new banks are lessened as much as possible. It has been an unequal being brought into a relationship with it. Before, I heard sacrifice. We need to ensure that we are never in this days, not weeks. Which is it? We need this to be sorted situation again, and that means a longer-term approach out as quickly as possible. The right hon. Member for to our public finances than we have had over recent Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) asked a years. number of pertinent questions about the banking system that we need to look at here. 5.25 pm There are big questions not just about elements of Jesse Norman: With the leave of the House, I will the spending but about its delivery. As my hon. Friends speak again. I am grateful to all Members who contributed have said, many organisations that were already fragile to what, as the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese are having to spend resources without knowing exactly Dodds) said, was a very wide-ranging debate. In fact, it how those resources will be backfilled. Such organisations was so wide-ranging that it barely focused on the measure include local authorities, NHS trusts, schools or groups before the House. However, I commend those who of schools, multi-academy trusts, transport providers discussed the Bill. It is a very important piece of legislation, and charities. I am very concerned that we have seen and—let me say this very straightforwardly—I am very organisations stepping into the breach to deal with grateful for the expressions of cross-party support from areas where there is not appropriate central Government the Opposition parties. That has been crucial to the way support—or was not initially—and not being appropriately the Government have thought about and framed our recompensed. For example, district councils have stepped response to this crisis. into the breach and tried to co-ordinate volunteering, The Bill is another key element in shoring up the very support food banks and so on. Will they receive the wide package of measures to fight the covid-19 outbreak support they need to backfill those costs? It is not clear, and, as the House has recognised, it represents a and it should be. proportionate legislative response to recent events. Of Regarding the process for this Bill, I want to make it course, it is proportionate in part because it will last clear that the official Opposition will continue to offer only for one year; it is not designed to run longer than to work with Government on these measures, but it that. vital that we have continued accountability. The hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) I will start with the comments by the right hon. talked about the pause in accountability that could Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey), occur after Parliament rises. I believe we need to ensure because he addressed the topic of the Bill; I am grateful that accountability is continuous. We have some good to him for that. He made a series of important points. cross-party working and cross-party discussions; issues On whether the banks are really stepping up, as the hon. have been placed on the agenda not just across parties, Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) said, but by different Members within the Conservative party. we will know by the end of the process who have been It is important that continues, so I hope that there will villains and who have been heroes. I do not think the be mechanisms to ensure that. public will be shy in reaching conclusions of their own, and I am sure there will be plenty of quantitative bases We will need further revisions to the package, at the for that when the moment comes. very least by July. There will be lasting costs as a result of the crisis that are not provided for in the Bill, such as The right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton the costs of all the medical procedures that are postponed, asked why the number we will vote through today has the reduced tax revenue for local authorities, and of been raised to 50% from 2%. That is a very important course the human cost, which is enormous. What will question. The reason is an anticipated escalation in the be the impact on children’s education? We must take an need for cash under—this point was made widely by earlier look at those matters than necessarily what colleagues across the House—conditions of radical would occur during the normal financial cycle. These uncertainty. It is also fair to say that it is not clear medium-term costs have to be dealt with. beyond any peradventure when the House will reconvene, Above all, in future Budgets we need to focus on and we have to accommodate the possibility of a delayed building resilience. Currently our response to the crisis restart. As one might imagine, no assumption is made, is more expensive because of the lack of resilience in but that possibility has to be contemplated. our society and our economy. Take all the debate about The right hon. Gentleman also asked whether this people who are self-employed: a big part of that arises constitutes an increase in spending. This is not a spending because our social security system is so unfit for purpose matter; it is a cash matter, and he needs to be aware of that it simply cannot support people’s incomes, not just that. To reassure him on the question of local authorities, in terms of its parameters, some of which to do with this does include spending that the Ministry of Housing, housing costs have been changed while many have not, Communities and Local Government will make as part but because of the infrastructure—the enormous waits of the usual estimates process. for universal credit and the fact that so many families The right hon. Gentleman described his work examining and individuals in our country, after a long period of processes for reviewing and considering Budgets, but income stagnation, simply do not have the resilience to this is not a Budget, so it does not fall under that. cover any last-minute costs. The salary support system However, it is worth saying that we have an evolved is taking so long to deliver at least in part because of system. It is a system that involves a lot of scrutiny— 295 Contingencies Fund Bill24 MARCH 2020 Contingencies Fund Bill 296 repeated days of looking at main estimates and with Frances O’Grady and other trade union leaders, as supplementary estimates—but of course it is also a well as with the Mayor of London, to try to build public system that gives considerable authority to the majority understanding and a shared view of these issues. party at any given time, and that is what constrains the A final point I would make about what the right hon. ultimate outcome. Gentleman described is that we have had statements on the Government’s response, two urgent questions, an Sir Edward Davey: I hope the Minister is right on the Opposition day—we have one tomorrow—and two pieces banks, but my main point is about the estimates. Actually, of legislation in the last two days alone, so there has we have only three days to debate the estimates. I have been every opportunity for parties across the House to attended estimates debates in this House over the last question and interrogate us. As colleagues have been 20 years; when we have estimates days, we never debate kind enough to point out, the Government have been the estimates. That is my point. working at tremendous pace, with every hour of the day being exploited for the purposes of trying to get the Jesse Norman: That is a different point. My point is right outcome, and where we have imperfection, as it that Parliament has plenty of opportunity to scrutinise were, we will try to make this as good as we can over the spending. If it does not do that, that is a choice that it next days and weeks. makes. Let me, if I may, move on to my hon. Friend the The right hon. Gentleman’s final point was about Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami). whether this Government believe, or any Conservative He asked what extra the Treasury will be borrowing as a Government have ever believed, that markets can do it result of this, and the answer is that this is a cash item, all. Let me assure him that no Conservative Government as he will recall. The debt management remit will follow, have ever believed that, and this one certainly do not and we will set out the Government’s borrowing plans. believe that. At the risk of invoking one of my great He raised an interesting question about whether money heroes, Adam Smith, the position is that commercial spent in response to this crisis could be itemised differently society is a dynamic evolution in which forms of property in the national accounts. That is an interesting idea, and are supported and recognised in law and then used to I thank him for it. He highlighted the impact of tech become the basis of profitable market development. start-ups, and he is absolutely right. That is how our system has evolved over many decades, and the state is integral to that process for all the I thank the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard reasons the right hon. Gentleman has described, so this Thomson) for supporting the Bill. I think he is absolutely is a way of agreeing with him. right to talk about the need for business recovery. We do not share his excitement about a universal basic income, May I turn to the comments made by the right hon. in part because it does not actually hug the need across Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell)? the population as well as a well-functioning benefit Again, I thank him for his support for the Bill, and I system, and that is what we have tried to do. It is a live think that constructive attitude is important. He is right argument on both sides. Of course, there are parts of to call this the gravest crisis we have known, certainly the spectrum, notably those on the state pension, where for this generation. A strong theme in his speech and we have something close to a universal income already those of others was the need for more communications; in place, although not necessarily at the level that people it was also mentioned by the hon. Member for Sefton would have expected. Central (Bill Esterson). Of course, we understand that on the Government Benches. During the debate, the My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton House will be pleased to know, I got a text from gov.uk (Kevin Hollinrake) persuasively and interestingly illustrated referring me to the coronavirus website. That is a direct the choices faced by Government and businesses through intervention of a kind I am not sure I would approve of his own business, and I thank him for that. My outside the context of a national crisis, but one that is understanding of the personal guarantee issue touched very welcome in that context. It shows evidence of and on by many is that the circumstances for the business bears testimony to the belief we have in this very loans are to be agreed between the lender and the important response and in the need for communications. individual. There might be some element of personal guarantee, but not as relates to the primary residence. Bill Esterson: I am very grateful to the Financial The desire is to build the flexibility and potential availability Secretary for highlighting the issue that my right hon. that comes with that, but without compromising people’s Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John ultimate wellbeing. McDonnell) and I raised about communication. The I thank my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives point about the gov.uk website is that not everybody (Derek Thomas) for his comments. Through his speech knows about it, and a further point is that not everybody today and in his remarks in Treasury questions, he has has access to the internet, particularly some of those registered his intense concern on this issue, and I thank most at need—older and more disadvantaged people—and him very much for that. that is where some of the other routes for getting Let me wind up by saying that this is a proportionate information out there are so important. legislative response to the crisis and that it seeks to close an important gap in cash flow in the estimates process. I Jesse Norman: I thank the hon. Member for that point, commend the Bill to the House. and he is absolutely right. One role that every Member of this House can have is to spread the word among Question put and agreed to. constituents to make sure that this is widely understood. Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day). talked about the importance of consulting the trade Further proceedings on the Bill stood postponed (Order, unions. He will know that there have been consultations this day). 297 Contingencies Fund Bill 24 MARCH 2020 298

CONTINGENCIES FUND BILL (MONEY) Contingencies Fund Bill Queen’s recommendation signified. Proceedings resumed (Order, this day) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Considered in Committee (Order, this day) Order No. 52(1)(a)), [DAME ROSIE WINTERTON in the Chair] That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Contingencies Fund Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. out of money provided by Parliament of any increase The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. attributable to the Act in the sums to be issued out of, or paid into, the Consolidated Fund which is attributable to increasing, Bill reported, without amendment. in relation to any time before 1 April 2021, the percentage Bill read the Third time and passed. specified in section 1(1) of the Contingencies Fund Act 1974 to a percentage not exceeding 50%.—(Eddie Hughes.) Question agreed to. 299 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 300 (Expenditure) Bill Windrush Compensation Scheme “Within two months of the date on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must arrange for operation of the (Expenditure) Bill Windrush Compensation Scheme to be the responsibility of an Considered in Committee (Order, 10 February) institution other than the Home Office.” This new clause requires the Secretary of State to move the operation of the Windrush Compensation Scheme to an institution [DAME ELEANOR LAING in the Chair] other than the Home Office. New clause 2—Consultation on simplifying the application 5.39 pm process— The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor “The Secretary of State must launch a public consultation on Laing): I wish to restate to the Committee that I will call the applicants’ experience of the application process under the Divisions only when they are really essential. As always, Windrush Compensation Scheme.” the Chair will listen to the debate and form a judgment This new clause requires the Secretary of State to launch a public on whether to exercise that discretion. I am reminding consultation on the applicants’ experience of the application the Committee now, as we reminded the Committee process. that sat yesterday, that today the bar is a high one and New clause 3—Time Limit— that arguments in favour of going through the Division “No time limit applies to when applications for compensation Lobbies will need to be very persuasive. under the Windrush Compensation Scheme must be received.” This new clause would ensure that no time limit can be imposed on Clause 1 when applications should be received. New clause 4—Public consultation on limits, tariffs EXPENDITURE ON THE WINDRUSH COMPENSATION and caps— SCHEME “The Secretary of State must launch a public consultation on the limits, tariffs and caps in the Windrush Compensation Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Scheme.” Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): I beg to move amendment 1, This new clause would require a public consultation on the limits, in clause 1, page 1, line 2, at the beginning, insert tariffs and caps in the scheme. “Subject to subsection (3),” New clause 5—Legal assistance— This is a paving amendment for Amendment 2 which requires modifications to the Windrush Compensation Scheme. “The Windrush Compensation Scheme must make provision for the reimbursement to applicants under the scheme of their reasonable costs of legal assistance in making applications for The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor compensation under the Scheme.” Laing): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: This new clause would allow applicants to recover their legal costs in applying to the scheme. Amendment 4, page 1, line 7, after “persons” insert New clause 6—Restrictions— “from not only Caribbean but also from other Commonwealth “(1) Compensation under the Windrush Compensation countries who arrived in the United Kingdom before 1 January Scheme may not be denied to any individual on the basis that 1973 and persons who have a right of abode or settled status (or they have a criminal record. who are now British citizens) and who arrived to live in the UK before 31 December 1988,” (2) Awards of compensation under the Windrush This amendment clarifies that the Windrush Compensation Compensation Scheme may not be reduced on grounds that the Scheme is not literally limited to men and women who originally individual failed to contact the Home Office at an earlier stage.” came to the UK from the Caribbean Commonwealth. This new clause would modify the restrictions on the payment of Amendment 2, page 1, line 9, at end, insert— compensation under the scheme. “(3) Subject to subsection (4), modifications that must be New clause 7—Standard of proof— made to the scheme before subsection (1) comes into force are set “No requirement may be made of applicants for a level of out in sections [Responsibility for the operation of the proof beyond the balance of probabilities for claims under the Compensation Scheme], [Consultation on simplifying the Windrush Compensation Scheme, including any claims relating application process], [Time limit], [Public consultation on limits, to— tariffs and caps], [Legal assistance], [Restrictions] and [Standard of proof], and [Appeal to the First Tier Tribunal]. (a) loss of earnings (4) Subsection (3) does not prevent payment of interim awards (b) reimbursement of private medical fees, under the Windrush Compensation Scheme.” (c) reimbursement of international student fees, and This a paving amendment which requires modifications to the (d) loss of access to banking.” Windrush Compensation Scheme before final payments can be funded by money provided by Parliament. This new clause would apply a civil standard of proof to claims for compensation under the scheme. Amendment 5, page 1, line 9, at end insert New clause 8—Appeal to the First Tier Tribunal— “, taking into account the impact of those difficulties on the family life of those persons”. “(1) The Secretary of State must make provision by way of regulations for claimants to have a right of appeal to the First This amendment would require the scheme to take account of the Tier Tribunal against any determination issued under the impact on the family life of people who encountered difficulties in Windrush Compensation Scheme. demonstrating their lawful immigration status. (2) An appeal under subsection (1) must be brought on the Clause stand part. grounds that the determination was not in accordance with the Clause 2 stand part. Windrush Compensation Scheme.” New clause 1—Responsibility for the operation of the This new clause would allow claimants to appeal to the First Tier Windrush Compensation Scheme— Tribunal against determinations made under the scheme. 301 Windrush Compensation Scheme 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 302 (Expenditure) Bill (Expenditure) Bill Stuart C. McDonald: We need the Bill to pass this independent is what the Windrush victims and campaigners evening so that compensation can continue to be paid have been asking for, so even at this late stage I urge the to the victims of the Windrush outrage. I dearly want Government to think again about the institutional that to happen, and I encourage all who may qualify for framework. compensation to seek advice and to make claims.Ultimately, New clause 8 provides an alternative opportunity to ensuring that compensation can continue to be paid is introduce an independent safeguard through a proper, all that really matters this evening. independent appeal to a tribunal system. Applying for However, this Committee stage gives us a short compensation in this way is a full-blown and complicated opportunity to probe the Government on various aspects legal process. The overall sums for the taxpayer, although of the scheme where we think improvements can and not insignificant, are not huge either, particularly given should be made. Some of those suggestions will be all the sums we have been talking about in recent days. the more important given the findings of the lessons However,they could and should be pivotal and life-changing learned review that was published last week. The report for those who are obtaining compensation. This is also represents an utterly damning indictment of Home about the significance of the scheme and the importance Office policy over many years and should represent an of getting it right. All of that justifies proper, independent absolutely pivotal moment—a turning point—in how judicial scrutiny of controversial and contested decisions. Governments, and indeed Parliament, develop and debate New clauses 2 and 4 are designed to encourage the immigration policy,as well as in the role that considerations Home Office to continue to consult and make improvements of race must play in policy development. As the review to the scheme as we proceed. The Minister has engaged points out: previously, and he has made changes, and we encourage “The department didn’t consider risks to ethnic minorities him to continue to take that practical approach. appropriately as it developed the policy. And it carried on with implementing the scheme after others pointed out the risks, and More significantly,new clause 4 seeks further consultation after evidence had arisen that those risks had materialised.” on the various restrictions, tariffs and caps that are part of the scheme. Clearly, there was extensive consultation This was not just a simple mistake, in the way we prior to the scheme being launched and I do not criticise usually use that word; it was really an act of pretty any of that for one moment. That was valuable work, outrageous recklessness. but I submit that everything now has to be reviewed in This debate is understandably overshadowed by the the light of last Thursday’s report. That report puts this coronavirus crisis and takes place in an understandably scandal in a very different light from others where sparsely attended Chamber. All of that is completely compensation has been awarded and from where practice understandable, but it means that this is not the appropriate may have been copied. Such was the flagrant disregard moment for Parliament to have its final say on the for the impact of Home Office policies, it surely is right lessons learned review. Therefore, probably the most that we revisit all the limits and restrictions on the losses important ask I would make of the Government today that can be recouped. Quite simply, we must look again is that they make a commitment to find a suitable future in the light of last week’s report. date in Government time, on a Tuesday or a Wednesday afternoon, so that we can have a full day’s debate, with 5.45 pm full and proper scrutiny of the Wendy Williams review and its implications. The period of profound reflection New clause 2 seeks simply to further improve and called for by her review should happen here in Parliament, simplify the application process. That is all the more as well as in the Home Office. important if the Government continue to resist our calls for legal aid to be available. That brings me to new Against that background, I now turn briefly to the clause 5, which calls for the cost of legal support for specific amendments and new clauses we have tabled, making applications to be reimbursed. The forms may which are largely self-explanatory, so I can go through be as close to simple as they could possibly be, but even them in fairly quick order. Amendments 1 and 2 are if that is the case, the process is still not an easy one. simply paving amendments, and allow us to make the Assessing and proving losses of this type is not an easy key points we want to make through new clauses 1 to 8. process, as any civil litigation lawyer can attest. Again, New clause 1 makes a simple but fundamental point. it is not just about complexity: it is about the profound As I argued on Second Reading, it is surely not only importance of the claims for those individuals and the pretty crass but counterproductive for the Home Office necessity to give them faith in the process. to be responsible for operating the compensation scheme. New clauses 3 and 6 contain important points of If an institution ruins someone’s life, their faith in the principle. New clause 3 says that the time limit for compensation scheme is surely not enhanced if the very compensation claims should be removed. The Minister same institution then sets the rules and makes the has already acted to push back the deadline, which I judgments on compensation applications. That is even welcome, but given the extraordinarily slow rate of more the case if someone still has concerns that the progress and the lack of trust that people still appear to same institution could do further damage to them or have in the Home Office, I ask him to remain open to their life. That is exactly how it is with the Windrush the idea of putting that date back further still. As both compensation scheme. the lessons learned review and the earlier National I repeat that I want people to come forward and to Audit Office report pointed out, the Home Office is still apply. I say to the Minister that making the scheme not actively looking for victims outside the Caribbean independent of the Home Office will undoubtedly increase countries. I hope that that will now change, but in the uptake and interest in it. Ultimately, given what these meantime it is eminently possible that there will be people have been through, how can any of us in this victims in other countries who will not discover that House criticise them for having concerns about providing they have a claim until years down the line. That is why information to the Home Office? Making the scheme the cut-off date must be removed. 303 Windrush Compensation Scheme 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 304 (Expenditure) Bill (Expenditure) Bill New clause 6 makes two important points. First, it it cannot be right that victims of the Windrush outrage challenges the Government to explain why compensation are being pressed to meet a higher standard of proof. I could be ruled out in some circumstances where the call on the Minister to rectify that issue. applicant has a criminal record. If I seriously injure In conclusion, the amendments and new clauses contain somebody on the roads or at work, I cannot get out of suggestions that seek to enhance the compensation paying compensation simply on the basis that the victim scheme, not to undermine it in any way at all. I will not had a completely unconnected criminal conviction, be pressing any of the amendments or new clauses to a regardless of how serious that conviction is. I should Division, but I hope the Minister will engage with the not have that excuse, and nor should the Home Office. I ideas on that basis. simply do not understand the logic behind that restriction, and I urge the Minister to try to explain it. The other Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) part of new clause 6 challenges reductions to compensation (Lab): We are debating this important Bill in the shadow payments on the grounds that losses could have been of the terrible existential crisis of coronavirus. However, limited through early contact with the Home Office. it would be wrong to let the debate go past without Again, that takes us back to the issue of trust raised in sharing the perspectives of large numbers of the Windrush connection with new clause 1, but here it is an even cohort on the arrangements for compensation. As was more powerful point. If even now people are expressing said in the Windrush lessons learned review: reluctance to go to the Home Office, imagine how much “Members of the Windrush generation and their children have greater that reluctance would have been at the height of been poorly served by this country. They had every right to be the crisis. People suddenly found themselves out of here and should never have been caught in the immigration net.” their job. It is easy for us to sit here today and say, “Well, if they had contacted the Home Office, they When we talk about compensation for the Windrush could have sorted out their status and everything would cohort, it is important to note that we are not talking have quickly been fine.” But we know fine well that about an act of charity; we are talking about people people contacting the Home Office were just as likely to who were always entitled to be here and are owed an wind up in immigration detention or subject to removal apology,as Wendy Williams said, as well as compensation. directions. If somebody has been out of work for six I begin by making the point that it is important in years because of the Windrush scandal, they should get going forward with Windrush compensation that we six years’ worth of wage loss, and that should not be look beyond the Caribbean. In the lessons learned reduced on the basis that they could have asked the review,Wendy Williams pointed out that the Department’s Home Office for help at an earlier stage and sorted historical cases review focused solely on people from things out. the Caribbean and excluded anybody with a criminal conviction and a sentence of more than 12 months. We New clause 7 might seem more technical, but it seeks have seen that the legislative changes that apply to the to rectify what I thought was a startling section in the Windrush generation also apply to other nationalities compensation scheme guidance for caseworkers. In the from the new Commonwealth. While the Windrush caseworker guidance for those making decisions about scheme is open to all Commonwealth nationalities, the applications, there is a section on the standard of proof. narrow focus of the historical cases review means that I think most people would assume instinctively that the the taskforce did not proactively contact non-Caribbean standard of proof would be the ordinary civil standard, nationals in the same way that it did Caribbean nationals. and that section of the guidance opens with instructions I will return to the question of the Windrush compensation to caseworkers: scheme and its outreach in a few minutes. “You should take a holistic view of the claim where there is a The Windrush compensation scheme is to be applauded lack of supporting evidence and decide the claim on a balance of in principle, but its record in practice, I am afraid, is probability. This means you must be satisfied that it is more likely lamentable. The scheme was unveiled in April 2019. By than not that the claimant meets the relevant criteria”. most estimates there is £200 million in the scheme and So far, so good, but it then sets out four exceptions, as no upper limit on claims. That is to be welcomed, but described in new clause 7, which include wage loss since it was unveiled in 2019, only 1,108 claims have claims, for example, which are obviously a significant been made and only 36 people have received money. I part of the process. The guidance at that point states: could probably find 36 members of the Windrush cohort in my own borough of Hackney, let alone the country “In these cases, the claimant must provide clear evidence and as a whole. Only £62,198 has been paid out. Those are you must be satisfied so as to be sure that they meet the requirements shameful figures, and in their response to the new for these awards. This means that you must be satisfied beyond clauses, I want to hear from Ministers what they intend reasonable doubt before making an award in these cases”. to do about the shamefully low pay-out. It may be that that is a clumsy and poorly worded As was said earlier, it is not surprising that people are attempt at simply suggesting that the caseworker should reluctant to come forward, because their experience of seek more by way of supporting documents in such the Home Office has been a punitive one. Some of them cases. If that is the case, then fine, but the guidance still may be frightened that they could end up in a detention needs to be fixed, because it cannot possibly be appropriate centre or worse. We in the Opposition believe that the to be demanding the criminal standard of proof. If, by Windrush compensation scheme needs a proper national my negligence, I caused somebody significant wage loss, campaign to encourage engagement among possible they would simply need to prove that wage loss in the Commonwealth claimants. After all, I think £4 billion balance of probabilities, even if that was a claim for was spent on the EU settlement scheme. We need to millions of pounds. Day in, day out, up and down this spend comparable sums on outreach for the Windrush land, massive payments of wage loss compensation are compensation, because this is a cohort of persons who made subject to proof on the balance of probability, so came to this country quite a few years ago, and unless 305 Windrush Compensation Scheme 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 306 (Expenditure) Bill (Expenditure) Bill [Ms Diane Abbott] 6 pm The compensation scheme is important, but Ministers we do the outreach—positively, and with more resources should not labour under the delusion that it draws a line behind it—and encourage them to claim, the danger is under the iniquitous injustice of Windrush. Ministers that they may never get the compensation to which they should also not labour under the illusion that it is some are entitled. Although of course their heirs and estates act of charity. This is a scheme providing long overdue may get some of it, that is not the same as people compensation for a cruel and unjust fate that befell a getting an apology in their lifetimes, but also compensation. generation who came here with the best of intent to I have said to the Minister and officials that I am help this country in its time of need after the war. happy to help with that outreach work—not as an apologist for the Government, but as someone who is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the very anxious that people should get what they are Home Department (Kevin Foster): I thank the right hon. entitled to. The reason I think it is so important that Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington people get what they are entitled to is not the money. As (Ms Abbott) and the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, I have said before in the House, in the end, the cruellest Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald) thing for the Windrush cohort was not the problems, for their constructive speeches and thoughts. As the the difficulties, the possibility of deportation and all shadow Home Secretary just reflected, we are talking those practical things. The cruellest thing for the Windrush about people—particularly those who came here before generation was the humiliation of being told by the 1973—who are British. They are British, they viewed British state that somehow they were not British or were themselves as British, and then they had a reminder of trying to mislead the state in that matter. some of the prejudices they experienced when they first arrived. The scheme is not about granting people citizenship This is a generation—I know something of it as my but confirming the status they always had. When we own parents were part of it—who came here with their debate this issue, we always need to make the point that UK and Colonies passports and believed that they were we are not granting them citizenship; they had it and British. I will argue that it is the humiliation that cut to have done for nearly 50 years. the quick. I have had various meetings in this House I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the with members of the Windrush cohort, and that is the amendments and new clauses, which I will go through thing I come up against time and time again: how in turn. I hope to give clear assurances to the Members humiliated and hurt they felt to be, as it were, rejected who tabled them on some of the issues raised and how by what they had always regarded as the mother country—a they formed part of our thinking during the development country they came to after the war to help to rebuild. of the compensation scheme. I will start with those It is important to stress how poor the take-up has tabled by the Scottish National party before turning to been and to say that Ministers must do more to encourage the official Opposition. Amendment 1 would pave the better take-up. We think that Ministers should consider way for the new clauses that would modify the Windrush putting the compensation scheme on a statutory basis. compensation scheme before final payments are made. I We also think it is important to stress that it applies also recognise that amendment 2 intends not to prevent not just to persons from the Caribbean but to people any interim payments from being made. It has always who came from other Commonwealth countries before been our priority to ensure that payments are made as January ’73 and people who had a right of abode or quickly as possible rather than only at the final resolution settled status and arrived to live in the UK before of a case. 31 December 1988. New clause 1 would move the operation of the Windrush compensation scheme out of the Home Office.I understand We also think it is important that, in moving forward hon. Members’ well articulated concerns about the on the compensation scheme, which is so important to Department that caused the issues facing these individuals the people who have suffered, we look at all the important deciding on their eligibility to receive compensation. aspects of family life that were severed by the Windrush The Home Office is determined to learn the lessons and scandal, whether that was people being deported, people’s right the wrongs experienced by the Windrush generation. children not being able to establish their right to be here I reassure the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth or the misery of people seeing their parents thousands and Kirkintilloch East that the compensation team is of miles away, having been consigned to deportation by working hard to ensure that people get the compensation what seemed to them a very cruel state. I remember they deserve. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary visiting Yarl’s Wood detention centre last year. There said to the House last week, we will continue to do were women there who were married to British men and everything possible to ensure that the Home Office had British children but who, because they were caught protects, supports and listens to every single part of the up in the Windrush scandal, found themselves quite community it serves. unfairly, having committed no crime, in a detention centre, and there were very many such cases. I also noted the request for a substantive debate on the lessons learned review. If I recall correctly, when the We will be supporting the compensation scheme, Home Secretary was at the Dispatch Box last week, she because we think it is important that the money gets to indicated that we would almost certainly look to do that the victims as soon as possible. The Opposition are at future moment when we are not constrained by the happy to help in any way with outreach to encourage circumstances around this debate. people to claim. Clearly, with the current public health situation, we cannot have meetings about it and so on, Ms Abbott: Is the Minister happy with the very low but there are other means—provided, possibly, by new level of pay-out from the Windrush compensation scheme media—by which more could be done on outreach. thus far? 307 Windrush Compensation Scheme 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 308 (Expenditure) Bill (Expenditure) Bill Kevin Foster: No, I want to see more getting the encourage people to put in their claim and get the compensation they are entitled to. That is why we are compensation that they are due. The Government believe bringing the Bill forward and why we would have looked that the two-year extension provides this, but there to have done more engagement events to reach out to remains the option to extend the duration if that is those affected, as she touched on in her remarks. That required. I say in response to the point fairly made by has been inevitably curtailed by the situation we face. the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and We have extended the scheme for another two years—it Kirkintilloch East that we would not close off consideration. was to end in April next year, but it has been extended However, we think it is right to have a timeframe in to April 2023—because we want more people to come order to encourage people to come forward and make forward and apply to it. their claims. I will come in a moment to some of the ways in which New clause 5 intends to allow applicants to recover we are looking to engage and get to more people. their legal costs in applying to the scheme. The team Hopefully, the next set of statistics produced will show have worked proactively to ensure that the design of the that, for example, some more significant compensation claim forms is simple and easy to understand, and they awards have been made since the first statistics were were tested with users to ensure that legal assistance is produced. We are careful not to put out statistics that not required. The introduction of this clause might could identify an individual and what they may have serve to encourage organisations to take advantage of received, because that is not an appropriate way to go potentially vulnerable individuals and to charge them about things as a Government. for unnecessary support to complete a claim. Should Let me return to new clause 1. Moving the operation claimants need support, the Home Office already has of the compensation scheme from the Home Office provision for a contract with Citizens Advice to provide would risk significantly delaying payments to claimants. free independent advice. We will soon be launching a That is because the first stage in deciding a claim for procurement tendering process to select an organisation compensation is to confirm an individual’s identity and to provide free independent advice and support to eligibility, which is linked to an individual’s immigration claimants for the duration of the scheme up until April status. It would be difficult to decouple this process 2023, and the £500,000 fund for grassroots organisations from the Home Office, which is the Department that announced last week to promote the compensation confirms this status. We have, though, established an scheme includes provision for advice services. independent review process for those dissatisfied with their compensation offer. The independent review is Stuart C. McDonald: I take the Minister’s point about conducted by the Adjudicator’sOffice—a non-departmental the work that has been done to try to make the scheme public body that is completely independent of the Home simple, and to have a tendering process for services that Office. The adjudicator can look at, among other things, will provide advice. But this is not just about the form; it whether the Department has followed its policies and is about the process of putting together sometimes the use of discretion by the Windrush compensation complicated evidence, particularly for the bigger awards. scheme. Surely there is a possibility that the Government could New clauses 2 and 4 seek to require the Department consider making available even a small panel of certain to launch public consultations on applicants’ experiences firms with expertise in this area—for particularly difficult of the application process, and on the scheme’s limits, or high-value claims. That is just something to think tariffs and caps. I reassure Members that our approach about. to designing the scheme was informed by 650 responses to a call for evidence and nearly 1,500 responses to a Kevin Foster: I hear the hon. Gentleman’s point. That public consultation. We also held several public events, was one of the areas covered when I met the independent and the previous Home Secretary appointed Martin adviser, and his advice is clear: he believes that the Forde QC—an experienced barrister on all aspects of system is set up in a way that means people do not need health law—to advise on the design of the compensation specialist legal support to make a claim. The compensation scheme. There are 13 categories under which people can team will work with the claimant to look at things such claim compensation. The scheme awards compensation as HMRC data on past employment and to access according to actual losses, as well as tariff-based awards. Government records—for example, on immigration fees Although some categories of award have an upper that may have been paid in the past when someone limit, there is no overall cap on the amount that an should not have needed to pay them. At the moment, individual can receive in compensation under the scheme, we are satisfied that this gives people the opportunity to nor a set budget limit on payments to be made. engage, and we are keen that this is about working with New clause 3 would see the scheme left open indefinitely. the person to find out how they were affected, rather Let me reassure the House that this Government are than getting into the type of adversarial legal process committed to ensuring that all those who wish to make that could have been the alternative to the approach a claim are able to do so. This is why we announced last that we are adopting. week that we were extending the duration of the scheme New clause 6 seeks to prevent the Home Office from until 2 April 2023. It is also why we announced the reducing compensation awards due to criminality or the launch of a national communications campaign and a timeliness of actions to resolve status. In response to £500,000 fund for grassroots organisations to promote direct feedback from claimants and stakeholders, the the Windrush taskforce and Windrush compensation Home Office has already made changes to the scheme’s scheme. However, as I said on Second Reading, there is mitigation policy. Individuals are no longer expected to a balance to be struck between setting a date far enough show that they took immediate steps to resolve their in the future to enable people to feel confident that status, and that was clarified in new guidance published they have time to make their claim, but soon enough to on 5 March. 309 Windrush Compensation Scheme 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 310 (Expenditure) Bill (Expenditure) Bill [Kevin Foster] Kevin Foster: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and the constructive way in which it was While it is reasonable to expect individuals who put. I will give him an undertaking to raise that point encountered difficulty in evidencing their lawful right to with the independent adviser and ask for a response be in the UK to have taken some steps to try to resolve to it. that, the Home Office will now consider any evidence of steps that someone took to resolve their situation, even New clause 8 seeks to allow claimants to appeal to if those steps were not taken as soon as reasonably the first-tier tribunal against determinations made under practical when an individual lost their job or took place the scheme. As I have outlined, we have already established before an individual encountered difficulties. For example, an independent review process for those dissatisfied that could include writing to a Member of Parliament with their compensation offer. The first stage is an rather than approaching the Home Office directly. That internal Home Office review by someone who has not change means that some people may qualify for higher been involved previously in the individual’s case, but if awards, particularly where it relates to loss of employment. the claimant remains dissatisfied, they can request a review by the Adjudicator’s Office, which is a non- With regard to criminality, those with criminal departmental public body that is completely independent convictions are not precluded per se from making a from the Home Office. claim for compensation. However, being mindful of the Government’s obligations towards taxpayers’ money, Moving on to the two amendments tabled by the we may reduce or decline an award if a claimant has a official Opposition, amendment 4 seeks to formally record of serious criminality. I was asked to explain why define the Windrush compensation scheme as open to we would do that. There may be a claim for loss of individuals from beyond the Caribbean Commonwealth. employment due to a person not being able to show I appreciate the thought behind the amendment, but it their migration status. If that claimant then had a is not necessary. The criteria for the scheme do not just serious criminal conviction shortly afterwards or during apply to individuals from the countries of the Caribbean that period, it would not inherently flow that their Commonwealth. I accept that there may a need to employment would have carried on but for the migration promote that point a bit more, but, to be clear, that status issue, because that serious offence would almost restriction is not there. certainly have cost them their employment. But as I say, that does not preclude, and it is not a bar. We are always 6.15 pm open with this process, as we work with stakeholders and the independent adviser in particular, but that Ms Abbott: Does the Minister not accept, though, explains why that would be done—because it seems that because the scheme is called the Windrush unfair to compensate with taxpayers’ money when that compensation scheme, some people might assume that employment may well have been lost anyway following it is only for people from the West Indies? a particular type of conviction. Kevin Foster: I very much understand the shadow Home Secretary’s point. Windrush is the name we have New clause 7 seeks that no requirement be made of for the generation. It is the name that has been in the claimants to demonstrate a level of proof beyond the press. It is the name that the media know, and the name balance of probabilities for claims for actual losses that many of the public would identify with—even under the scheme. The scheme awards compensation though it is a ship that the vast majority of people in the according to both actual losses and tariff-based awards. Windrush generation would never have seen, yet alone Evidential requirements have been designed to be sailed upon. It has become common parlance. I agree straightforward and not too onerous. However, we do that we need to get the message out there that, although ask claimants to provide as much evidence as they can, it is called the Windrush compensation scheme, it is not so that the best assessment can be made. Caseworkers just about those who came from the Caribbean; it is will work with applicants and contact other Government wider. It is for Commonwealth citizens who settled or Departments, such as Her Majesty’sRevenue and Customs, had the right of abode in the UK before 1 January 1973, on their behalf where there may be evidential gaps. plus any person of any nationality who arrived in the Where awards are tariff-based, caseworkers will make UK before 31 December 1988 and is lawfully in the UK decisions on the balance of probabilities. Where awards or is now a British citizen, and estates of the deceased are for actual losses, it is right that we seek to obtain and others. We intend to continue to promote the an appropriate level of assurance that those losses scheme and to make sure that more people come forward. were incurred, in order to fulfil our duty to properly manage money. I move on to amendment 5, which seeks to ensure that the impact on family life of people who have difficulties in demonstrating their lawful status is taken Stuart C. McDonald: I ask the Minister to look at that into account. There is the ability to award compensation again. I get the point that caseworkers have to be very for impact on life, which is awarded on a series of levels, careful and seek as much evidence as possible when it with payments ranging from £250 up to £10,000, where comes to certain types of losses, including loss of earnings, the effect on the claimant was profound and likely to be but to phrase it as “beyond reasonable doubt” seems irreversible. pretty controversial. All I am asking is that he goes away I hope I have been able to reassure the hon. and right and thinks about that and perhaps consults Home Office hon. Members who have tabled some well-intended and solicitors, because it seems very unusual to demand that well-thought-through amendments. I hope they will standard of proof. I understand the need for evidence, understand why it would be appropriate to withdraw but “beyond reasonable doubt” seems very strange. the amendments. 311 Windrush Compensation Scheme 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 312 (Expenditure) Bill (Expenditure) Bill Stuart C. McDonald: I am grateful to the Minister for Government threatened deportation. Her case was a addressing some of the points raised. Through our scandal; we just did not know at the time that it was the interventions, I think the shadow Home Secretary and I Windrush scandal. have made it clear that we accept what the Minister has We saw many more cases and, eventually, the bigger said, and we have asked him to go away with one or two picture was revealed. I pay tribute to the work of points and ask further questions. In the meantime, I beg Amelia Gentleman in exposing, in such a forensic way, to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. the extent and depth of the scandal up and down the Ms Abbott: I just want to confirm that it is not our country. intention to vote against the Bill, and it is our intention The consequences have been profound—not simply to not press our amendments. the grave injustice and material detriment suffered by Just before the debate comes to a close, I would like thousands of people. It is a moment that gives rise to to express, on his behalf, the regret of my colleague and the need for deep reflection on our national identity and right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) sense of community. That a group of people who have for not being here. He is in self-isolation due to the contributed so much could be treated so appallingly current public health problems. shows that something had gone badly wrong in our Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. understanding of who we are as a country and, notwithstanding the compensation scheme, there is more Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. work to do on that, particularly on reform of the Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. history curriculum and what we teach our children The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. about migration and colonialism. I hope the Government Bill reported, without amendment. will give serious consideration to that. Third reading My constituents’ experience of the compensation Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be scheme to date has been very poor. The scandal itself now read the Third time.—(Kevin Foster.) was a fundamental breach of trust, and many people have not felt confident to come forward. Despite the 6.19 pm Minister’s remarks in Committee, the form is complicated, and it is very easy to omit key details. Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): It is very important, even in the context of the crisis we I sat down with one of my constituents to fill out the face, that the Government have made time to progress form on behalf of her mother, and it was only when we this piece of legislation. My constituency of Dulwich had worked through all 18 pages of it that I asked: “Is and West Norwood has a strong and direct connection there anything else that you think your mother suffered to Windrush, since about 200 of the passengers on the as a consequence of being a victim of the Windrush original Empire Windrush came first to Clapham Common scandal?” She then said, very quietly, “She lost her to find temporary accommodation in the Clapham home. She was renting privately and, because she was deep shelter before finding their way to Coldharbour not allowed to return to the UK, her home was repossessed Lane in Brixton to find work. by the landlord and she lost all her possessions, because there was nobody who could manage that and reclaim From there, many of them found work locally at any of her belongings for her.” King’s College Hospital, where they helped to establish our NHS. It is particularly poignant to be debating the That would not have been captured on the form had Bill at this time as many members of the Windrush it not been for my prompting question at the end. generation, and indeed their descendants, still work still Almost every one of my constituents who I have spoken in that hospital, desperately seeking to save lives that has found it difficult to capture all the information on are at risk from covid-19. the form. Because of their experience with the Home My constituency is home to many members of the Office, they fear the level of proof and the extent of Windrush generation and their families. It is also now evidence that will be required, and this is not an easy home to the Black Cultural Archives, which sits proudly process for them. on Windrush Square. Later in my speech, I will return The support that has been provided through the CAB to the role that the Black Cultural Archives have played has not been accessible or sufficiently expert, so it has in the context of the Windrush scandal and compensation. been left to the voluntary sector, to pro bono lawyers The impact of the Windrush scandal has been profound and to organisations such as the Black Cultural Archives, and devastating. In my team, we knew there was a which has done a heroic job but struggled to cope with scandal years before it was a story in the news. As my the need. I welcome the proposals for a fund for grass-roots right hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and support that the Home Secretary recently announced, Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) was absolutely right to and I would welcome assurances from the Minister that clarify, the scandal affects people from across the some of that funding will be allocated to the BCA, Commonwealth and not only from the Caribbean. which has done an extraordinary job—not only local Indeed, our first Windrush case was a constituent but national in its reach—because it is trusted by the who had arrived in the UK from Sierra Leone, decades community. ago. She was asked to provide proof of her status in the My right hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North UK when she applied for her state pension, but she had and Stoke Newington was right to highlight the need arrived at the age of 14 with somebody who may or may for a publicity campaign for the compensation scheme. not have been a relative. She did not have any papers. I hope the Government will give serious consideration Despite her whole life being in the UK, having worked to the content of such a publicity scheme and to who all her adult life, raised five children and having no fronts it. The first community meeting to launch the remaining connections at all in Sierra Leone, the UK compensation scheme was organised in my constituency 313 Windrush Compensation Scheme 24 MARCH 2020 Windrush Compensation Scheme 314 (Expenditure) Bill (Expenditure) Bill [Helen Hayes] debate about the lessons learned review. One thing that that review said was that this was not a mistake: there at a day’s notice. I was not informed as the local MP, were problems in the whole culture and leadership of many members of my community had no idea that the the Home Office. I understand why, given the public meeting was going ahead, and those who did were health tragedy in which we are engulfed, it has not fearful of it being a meeting with the Home Office proved possible at this point to have a serious debate on because of the breach of trust that I described earlier. the lessons learned review, but until we have done that Finally, I wish to make a plea that has been made and absorbed some of the lessons that Wendy Williams already in the public domain by Patrick Vernon, to was at such pains to set out in her review, we cannot whom I pay tribute as somebody who has campaigned have complete confidence that the compensation scheme relentlessly on behalf of Windrush citizens. Will the will, even with all the best intentions of Ministers, go Government hand the administration of the scheme to ahead at pace and that people will get what they are another Government Department? The Home Office entitled to. may have accepted the lessons learned review, and that is welcome, but it has not yet implemented the scale and Finally,I want to talk about the people in the community depth of culture change that the review demands. As who campaigned long and hard on this issue, notably recently as last month, the Home Office was having to Patrick Vernon, a Hackney resident who is well known remove people from a charter deportation flight after a to me. All sorts of people in the community understood court decided that the Department had not followed there was a scandal, even before Amelia Gentleman’s due processes. The assurance that the Minister has tried articles, and they continue to campaign. The compensation to provide indicates a lack of understanding of exactly Bill means nothing unless there is delivery as well as the extent of the breach of trust that has been caused by intent. the Windrush scandal and the wider hostile environment. People are simply fearful of the Home Office and its 6.30 pm capacity to ruin lives. This has been an utterly shameful period in our Kevin Foster: With the leave of the House, Madam history. The compensation scheme is welcome and Deputy Speaker, I will briefly respond. I appreciate the important, but I hope the Government realise the breadth support that has been given to the Bill, and I wish to and depth of the work that they still need to do to thank Martin Forde, QC, the independent adviser. As I change culture and rebuild trust. There is still a long said in Committee, we are still open to hearing suggestions way to go. as things move on, and we will certainly look to continue to engage with stakeholders to ensure that people get 6.27 pm the compensation they deserve. The ability to bid for the funding will be available; it would not be right for Stuart C. McDonald: I think I said all that I needed to me to pledge funding to particular organisations on the say in Committee. The most important thing to happen Floor of the House. The Black Cultural Archives will this evening will be that we pass the Bill so that have the opportunity to bid into the process, but I hope compensation continues to be paid. We have made the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood some suggestions about how the compensation scheme (Helen Hayes) will understand why it would not be can be improved, but we welcome the intent behind it appropriate for me to give lists of groups that may do and hope that it reaches as many people as it needs to so, rather than going through the process that is in reach. place. I hope that those who were affected by the Another important thing to happen this evening was Windrush scandal will see the type of debate we have the undertaking that there would be a proper and full had and see that even in the current circumstances there debate about the lessons learned review that was published was a determination to get this Bill through. I accept last Thursday. It was a hugely significant moment in the shadow Home Secretary’s point that this is not the modern British political history. There are so many ideal opportunity to have the longer debate that we will aspects of the Windrush scandal that still have to be need to have on the Floor of the House at some point properly explored in this place, as well as within about the lessons learned review. I very much appreciate Government, and we look forward very much to playing the support that has been given to this Bill by all our full part in that. Members today. Finally, let me wish the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) a speedy recovery, 6.28 pm as I imagine it would have been hard for him to miss this debate, given his passion about this issue. Ms Abbott: As I said in Committee, the Opposition support the Bill in principle, but it is unfortunate that Question put and agreed to. we have had to discuss it before we have had a proper Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 315 24 MARCH 2020 Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body 316

Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body proceed in this way. I have done a considerable amount of work on the subject over the years because, as the 6.32 pm Leader of the House said, our primary concern should The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob be the saving of public money. Rees-Mogg): I beg to move, I would like to have served on the sponsor body, but it That Damian Hinds, Sir Robert Syms, Tommy Sheppard and was not to be. I wish those who have been appointed Mark Tami be appointed as Parliamentary members, and that every success, because they have a very important task. Brigid Janssen, Elizabeth Peace (chair), Marta Phillips, Dr Simon Given the crisis that we are facing, we have to think Thurley and Simon Wright be appointed as external members, of again, and I am sure that when those on the sponsor the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body under Part 1, Schedule 1 to the Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019. body address the subject, their No. 1 concern will be to Last year,the Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and save public money, ensure the safety of Members and Renewal)Act2019receivedRoyalAssent—indeed,uniquely, preserve this historic building. it did so twice. The Act established a sponsor body, Even before the public health crisis that we are facing, which will have overall responsibility for the restoration there were difficult decisions to be made about public and renewal of the Palace of Westminster, and act as a spending, increases in taxation and trying to divert single client on behalf of both Houses. Since July 2018, resources from London to the north of England in the sponsor body has been established in shadow form, particular. Even before this crisis, which will probably and has been getting on with the preparatory and due necessitate the largest expansion of the state since the diligence work, so that it can take on the restoration and second world war, I think that people would have started renewal programme. From 8 April 2020, the sponsor to look askance at our spending billions of pounds on body will become substantive and formally responsible ourselves when there might well be a cheaper alternative. for the restoration and renewal programme. When the sponsor body has its first meeting, it might As required under the Act, the motion before the House consider that this is the moment to review the whole today confirms the appointment of Members from this project and look at whether we can do it significantly House to the board of the sponsor body. I wish to take more cheaply than the present option. a moment to pay tribute to Sir Patrick McLoughlin and When the House voted, quite narrowly, for a full the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray), decant, we were in a very different world. Of course, the who have worked tirelessly as members of the shadow original Select Committee on which my right hon. sponsor body and to improve the Act during its passage Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees- through the House. In addition, this motion confirms Mogg) served accepted a full decant on the basis that it the roll-over of external members from the shadow to would be possible to create a temporary Chamber in the the substantive sponsor body.That will provide continuity courtyard of Richmond House. The Committee was for the board as it becomes established, while allowing actually given the wrong measurements; the incompetence for the opportunity for the sponsor board to evaluate of this is beyond belief. It was then announced that the needs for its membership in the future. because it was no longer possible to create such a Taken together, these appointments ought to strike the Chamber, which the authorities claimed would have to right balance between ensuring cross-party support for be exactly the same size as the existing one, with the the works and the appropriate external professionalism same size Division Lobbies—the whole works—it was and expertise. I wish the appointees every success. The now proposed to demolish all of Richmond House, at a restoration and renewal of this historic Palace will be a cost of many hundreds of millions of pounds. significant task, and ensuring that these works represent I have been working with SAVE, the architectural value for money for the taxpayer, which is perhaps heritage body.Wehave come up with well-costed proposals, the key thing, will remain absolutely at the forefront of designed by architects, to create much more cheaply, if their minds. One of the main aims of this project will be it was deemed necessary to have one, a temporary to keep costs down, and Her Majesty’s Government are Chamber in the courtyard of Richmond House that willing to work collaboratively with the sponsor body in was exactly the same size—[Interruption.] It would be this important mission. exactly the same size as this Chamber. There is absolutely no need to demolish Richmond House, which is an 6.33 pm award-winning listed building. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I thank the Leader of the House for tabling the motion, which the Opposition Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. support. I concur with every word he said. If we look at I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s passion about the list of the names in the motion, we see that one is this subject, but this is a very narrow motion about the that of the former Education Secretary, the right hon. membership of the Committee, not about the exact Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), so keen dimensions of any proposed future Chamber. I must is he to get on with the work. We know that all the hold the right hon. Gentleman to the particular matter members listed in the motion have the necessary expertise, before us. He can address the general issue, but talking particularly the external members, who cover heritage about exact dimensions is going a bit far. as well as accountancy. As far as the right hon. and hon. Sir Edward Leigh: I will certainly not dwell on the Members are concerned, we know they will provide exact dimensions. I was making the simple, general plenty of expertise and important input into this very point that there might cheaper options than the proposal important project. I, too, wish them every success. to demolish Richmond House and build a permanent 6.34 pm replica Chamber. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I welcome The other point that the new sponsor body has to this motion. I served, under Dame Caroline Spelman, consider is what will happen when the House of Lords on the Joint Committee that recommended that we is moved to QEII. It would be possible to place the 317 Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body 24 MARCH 2020 318

[Sir Edward Leigh] on the commission, so that we could ensure that they will not follow the lead that the hon. Member for Lords quite cheaply and simply in that building at a Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) has just given? It is for relatively small cost. There is already a large conference the whole House to determine what its procedures are chamber there, which holds up to 700 people—big and ought to be, and not for some subset to design them enough even for the House of Lords. Their lordships into some new pleasure dome, or whatever they plan to may have to forgo their planned rooftop terrace dining construct as a consequence of spending all this money. room, which would cost £200 million, but, given the David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): There is a serious present crisis facing the nation, I am sure that they will point to this. The whole reason that we have to sit this be prepared to do that. distance apart from one another is that, if one thing has Even more cheaply—speaking in very general terms, been taught about the context of this House and Madam Deputy Speaker, to comply with your ruling—it coronavirus, it is that this place does not work in terms may not even be necessary to have a temporary Chamber of public health. It does not work in terms of being a erected in the courtyard of Richmond House. Having functioning Parliament, so while there was a degree of commissioned architects to work on this subject, I can bombast there, which I am sure is only engineered on say that it would be perfectly possible for this Chamber the part of the right hon. Gentleman, an element of to move temporarily to the House of Lords Chamber, pragmatism is required on the part of hon. Members, is as we did in the second world war, with a line of route it not? through Westminster Hall and Saint Stephen’s Chapel. To sum up, there are many cheaper alternatives that Sir Desmond Swayne: This Chamber has survived must and should be explored by the sponsor body, as many health emergencies, and I do not believe that we our primary concern is to save public money, carry out should design into the future the prospect of continuing these works as expeditiously as possible and not waste viruses. Let us conquer the virus, rather than change time, perhaps until 2027, waiting for a replica Chamber procedures that have endured almost forever. I assure to be built. We should get on with the work now and him that change is always for the worst. preserve this historic building. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I call 6.40 pm David Linden. Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): If the right David Linden: I don’t think I can follow that, Madam hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) Deputy Speaker. wants to sit in the House of Lords, I am sure that will have been heard by those on the Treasury Bench. We 6.43 pm know that one day, that ambition of his will be fulfilled— Mr Rees-Mogg: This has, as always, been a high-quality, [Interruption.] Exactly—if he wanted to be on the if brief, debate, with people maintaining very safe distances. sponsor body, he could have moved an amendment on I think the right hon. and hon. Members whose names I that this evening. He could have divided the House, and have put forward are ones in whom the House can have who knows? With the attendance here, it might have complete confidence. I am particularly pleased that my even gone through on the voices to let him serve. right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire I join the Leader of the House in paying tribute to the (Damian Hinds) is here to listen to the debate; having Members who are leaving the shadow sponsor body— known him since we were at university together, I have a especially my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and special degree of confidence in him. Shotts (Neil Gray)—and I welcome those who are coming Question put and agreed to. on to it. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), who cannot be Business without Debate here, is thrilled at the prospect of being part of this project and will, as the Scottish National party has always done, keep an incredibly sharp eye on the use of DELEGATED LEGISLATION public funds and the opportunity that this must present Madam Deputy Speaker: With the leave of the House, to modernise and reform the practices and procedures we shall take motions 8 to 10 together. of the House of Commons, however it meets. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Oh no! Order No. 118(6)), Patrick Grady: I am afraid so. It may disappoint the TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT right hon. Member, but I notice that even their lordships That the draft Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay (Consequential up the back have new Division Lobbies in the Royal Amendments to Subordinate Legislation) Regulations 2020, which Gallery, because their current Division Lobbies would were laid before this House on 10 March, be approved. be completely unsuitable in the time of social distancing in which we live. We would be the same, so this will PENSIONS provide an opportunity, if these institutions are going That the draft Automatic Enrolment (Earnings Trigger and to remain relevant into the 21st century, to make sure Qualifying Earnings Band) Order 2020, which was laid before this that they do, taking advantage of all the opportunities House on 3 March, be approved. that R and R presents. FEES AND CHARGES 6.41 pm That the draft Private Security Industry (Licence Fees) Order Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): On 2020, which was laid before this House on 3 February,be approved.— that note, ought we not to properly have had scrutiny (James Morris.) hearings for these hon. Members who are going to sit Question agreed to. 319 Business without Debate24 MARCH 2020 Business without Debate 320

SELECT COMMITTEES (PARTICIPATION AND members of the Committee have been consulted about the terms REPORTING) (TEMPORARY ORDER) of the order, resolution or Report and that it represents a decision of the majority of the Committee. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 9(6)), (4) This Order shall have effect from the date that it is made until 30 June 2020, save that the Speaker may extend its effect by (1) That for the period specified in paragraph (4) of this Order, notifying the House that in his opinion it is expedient that these the following measures shall have effect in relation to the arrangements continue in force until a specified later date; more proceedings of any select committee which has the power to than one such notification may be given, but each such notification report from time to time. shall be given no less than a week before the expiry of this Order or any subsequent extension to it.—(James Morris.) (2) Members of any select committee to which this Order Question agreed to. applies may participate in select committee proceedings through such electronic means of communication as have been approved ADJOURNMENT by the Speaker. Resolved, (3) The Chair of any select committee to which this Order That this House do now adjourn.—(James Morris.) applies may report to the House an order, resolution or Report as an order, resolution or Report of the Committee which has not 6.44 pm been agreed at a meeting of the Committee, if satisfied that all House adjourned.

5WS Written Statements 24 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 6WS Written Statements CABINET OFFICE

Tuesday 24 March 2020 UK Parliamentary Boundaries

BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith): In the written statement of 19 March, “Postponement Departmental Contingency Liability: Coronavirus of electoral events” (HCWS174 and HLWS169), the Interruption Loan Scheme Government outlined their proposals for urgent electoral legislation to postpone forthcoming elections as part of the wider steps to tackle the spread of the coronavirus. The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Working to ensure the health and safety of the British Strategy (Alok Sharma): I am tabling this statement for public is the Government’s top priority. We still however the benefit of hon. and right hon. Members to bring to have a responsibility to govern, plan for the future and their attention the details of the coronavirus business ensure that where possible, essential parliamentary business interruption loan scheme announced by the Chancellor continues and legal obligations are met. of the Exchequer on 11 March 2020. The House of Commons may debate the Government’s The coronavirus business interruption loan scheme policy stance on UK parliamentary boundaries on Friday will be facilitated by the Government-owned British 27 March, in light of the Private Members’ Bill tabled Business Bank and delivered through its delivery partners. by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Peter Bone). Lenders will offer loans of up to £5 million to support small and medium-sized businesses with a turnover up I believe clearly setting out the Government’s emerging to £45 million that are affected by the coronavirus policy position would provide clarity for Parliament, outbreak. There will be no limit on the number and the public and electoral administrators. Given this policy aggregate value of loans that can be made under the area is of direct relevance to the Commons, it is important scheme. that the first Chamber is properly informed. The scheme is based on the British Business Bank’s This is also pertinent because at present, the Government existing Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme, is available are legally required to give effect to the recommendations on a temporary basis and can be extended as required. from the Boundary Commissions as set out in their The key parameters of the scheme are as follows: 2018 reports—including reducing the number of The percentage of the remaining balance of each loan constituencies to 600. In this statement I lay out the that is guaranteed by the Government will be increased to Government’s thinking on this matter. 80% (currently 75% of each EFG loan is guaranteed); Need for equal and updated boundaries A cap on gross Government liability at the level of the lender’s whole CBILS portfolio of 75% of losses (currently The Conservative Government committed, in our the Government’s gross liability is capped at 20% of losses 2019 manifesto, to delivering updated and equal UK across the lender’s whole EFG portfolio); parliamentary boundaries with the essential aim of A Government grant (the business interruption payment) making sure that every vote counts the same—a cornerstone will be provided for the benefit of businesses, equal to the of democracy. fees and interest incurred on the facility for the first 12 months. The maximum grant payable is capped at a level that will The last boundary review to be implemented in England allow a significant majority of businesses to be compensated was based on data from 2000; the last to be implemented in full. A lower cap applies to businesses in some sectors; in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland used data The lender must establish that the SME has a viable from 2001-2003. In effect, our current constituencies business proposition assessed according to its normal commercial reflect how the UK population was at the beginning of lending criteria. However, where there are some concerns the century. Today’s youngest voters have been born over the short-term business performance due to covid-19 since then: this disregards significant changes in impacts, provided the lender reasonably believes that the demographics, house building and geographical migration. finance will help the business to ‘trade out’ of any short-term cashflow difficulty, then the business is considered eligible The Government have also taken into account for the scheme; and representations from colleagues on all sides of the House, Subject to the lender’s policy, businesses can access CBILS and from the Public Administration and Constitutional loans up to a value of £250,000 without the lender undertaking Affairs Committee. an assessment of their security position (currently, only businesses that have been assessed by the lender as having When parliamentary time allows, the Government insufficient security can access EFG loans). are minded to bring forward primary legislation to set The new scheme was launched on 23 March, will run the framework for future boundary reviews, including for an initial period of six months, and will be extended the next review due to begin in early 2021. Such provisions as required. The Government will be subject to a greater would cover the number of constituencies, the frequency contingent liability than is the case for the Enterprise of reviews, the boundary review process, and the process Finance Guarantee, and I will be laying a departmental by which those recommendations are brought into legal minute today containing a description of the liability effect. undertaken. Maintaining 650 seats For more information on this and other support for Legislation currently provides that, on implementation business,please go to: https://www.businesssupport.gov.uk/. of the 2018 boundary review recommendations, the [HCWS177] number of constituencies in the UK shall be 600. The 7WS Written Statements 24 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 8WS

Government are minded to instead make provision for allow for updated constituencies to be in place for two the number of parliamentary constituencies to remain general elections before being reviewed in time for a at 650. In doing so, we would also remove the statutory third general election. obligation to implement the 2018 boundary review Implementing the recommendations of the independent recommendations and the statutory obligation on the Boundary Commissions Government to make arrangements to review the reduction Currently, at the end of a boundary review, the in constituencies to 600 by 30 November 2020. Government lay the reports of the independent and Under current legislation the Boundary Commissions impartial Boundary Commissions before Parliament. are required to report on their next review by October The recommendations contained in the reports are then 2023. In order to meet this deadline they would have to brought into effect by way of an Order in Council that begin that review in early 2021. Without changes to must be approved by Parliament by the affirmative primary legislation, there would be a legal obligation procedure before it can be made. for the Boundary Commissions to undertake that review The Government are minded to continue to provide on the basis of 600 constituencies. that the reports are still laid before Parliament (by the Speaker who is Chair of the Boundary Commissions) This is a change in policy from the position previously but would change the means of bringing the Boundary legislated for under the coalition Government. Since Commissions’ recommendations into effect. The new that policy was established in the coalition agreement, recommended constituency boundaries will be brought the United Kingdom has now left the European Union. into effect automatically by the Order in Council. The UK Parliament will have a greater workload now we are taking back control and regaining our political This change would provide certainty that the and economic independence. It is therefore sensible for recommendations of the independent Boundary the number of parliamentary constituencies to remain Commissions—developed through a robust and impartial at 650. process that is open to extensive consultation—would then be implemented without interference. Parliament, Electoral quota tolerance of course, would remain sovereign and can amend primary legislation as it sees fit. The Boundary Commissions are generally required Engagement with political parties to propose constituencies whose electorates vary in size by no more than +/- 5% from the average (“The electoral The Government are keen to establish the broad quota”). The Government are not minded to amend support of Parliament for such changes and will engage this tolerance level which achieves equal and fair boundaries with the political parties represented in the UK Parliament while allowing the Boundary Commissions the flexibility on such proposals. to take account of other factors, such as physical This will include engagement with the Parliamentary geographical features and local ties,subject to the overriding Parties Panel on the technical measures planned. These principle of equality in constituency size. include provisions relating to the length of time the Boundary Commissions have to conduct their reviews Equal representation within the boundary review cycle and the process involved in the reviews, such as public hearings and consultation. Updated and equal boundaries will ensure that every I hope there is scope for broad cross-party agreement constituent nation in the United Kingdom has equal on such improvements. representation in the UK Parliament, and deliver parity of representation across the United Kingdom’s In due course, the Government hope that such reforms constituencies. will strengthen democratic accountability of Parliament to the British people. Under the existing legislation, passed in 2011, there I hope this provides clarity on the Government’s are four protected constituencies where the electoral policy intent over this Parliament. Of course, as stated quota tolerance does not apply on account of their above, the Government’s immediate legislative priority unique geography: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan will be taking the necessary steps to protect the health an lar,and two seats for the Isle of Wight. The Government and safety of the British public. are not minded to make changes to these protected [HCWS183] constituencies, or to propose any more protected constituencies given the need to ensure equal representation. Boundary review cycle TREASURY Under the current legislation, boundary reviews must take place every five years. As the Government also intend to repeal the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, Notification of Contingent Liability future boundary reviews will inevitably be decoupled from the cycle of general elections. We need to strike a balance between regularly updated parliamentary The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): The constituencies and the disruption caused to local Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) of the Bank of communities and their MPs by boundaries changing at England decided at its meeting ending on 19 March to every general election. ask for an expansion in the maximum limit of purchases that may be undertaken by the asset purchase facility The Government are minded to consider that conducting (APF). This will encompass up to £200 billion of further boundary reviews every eight years strikes the right purchases of gilts and corporate bonds to support the balance. An eight-year review cycle would generally economy through the disruption caused by covid-19. 9WS Written Statements 24 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 10WS

In light of the evidence on the impact of covid-19 on This ultimate accolade is reserved for those squadrons which the global and domestic economy, and conditions in are involved in direct confrontation with an enemy and the UK and international government bond markets, the demonstrate gallantry and spirit under fire. MPC judged further asset purchases financed by the In addition to the 27 battle honours and eight battle issuance of central bank reserves should be undertaken honours with the right to emblazon previously approved for to enable the MPC to meet its statutory objectives. The squadron’s participation on Operation TELIC, one further operational flying squadron has been approved for the award MPC expects that purchases of corporate bonds will of a battle honour. improve the availability of credit to UK companies and that further purchases of gilts will reduce borrowing A battle honour is awarded to: costs, raise asset prices, affect expectations and confidence, and thereby support the economy. I have therefore No.78 Squadron RAF authorised an increase in the total size of the APF of [HCWS181] £200 billion. This will bring the maximum total size of the APF from £445 to £645 billion. In line with the requirements in the MPC remit, the RAF Battle Honours: Operations Vulcan and Barras amendments to the APF that could affect the allocation of credit and pose risks to the Exchequer have been discussed with Treasury officials.The risk control framework The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey): previously agreed with the Treasury will remain in My noble Friend the Minister in the House of Lords place, and HM Treasury will keep monitoring risks to (the right hon. Baroness Goldie DL) has made the public funds from the facility through regular risk oversight following written ministerial statement. meetings and enhanced information sharing with the I am today announcing that Her Majesty the Queen has Bank. been graciously pleased to approve the award of battle There will continue to be an opportunity for the honours to squadrons of Her Majesty’s Royal Air Force, for Treasury to provide views to the MPC on the design of their participation in Operation Vulcan (Bosnia) during the the schemes within the APF,as they affect the Government’s period August to September 1995 and Operation Barras broader economic objectives and may pose risks to the (Sierra Leone) during the period August to September 2000. Exchequer. Battle honours may be “awarded to commemorate any notable battle, action or engagement in which aircrew or The Government will continue to indemnify the Bank Royal Air Force regiment personnel played a memorable and the APF from any losses arising out of, or in part”. There are two levels of battle honour within the Royal connection with, the facility. If the liability is called, Air Force. The first is the award of a battle honour which provision for any payment will be sought through the recognises that a squadron played a notable and significant normal supply procedure. role in the campaign. The second, higher level confers the right to emblazon the battle honour on the standard itself. A full departmental Minute has been laid in the This ultimate accolade of battle honours with emblazonment House of Commons providing more detail on this is reserved for those squadrons which are involved in direct contingent liability. confrontation with an enemy and demonstrate gallantry and [HCWS184] spirit under fire. The highest honour of battle honour with the right to emblazon has been awarded to two squadrons for their DEFENCE participation on Operation Vulcan. The highest honour of battle honour with the right to emblazon has been awarded to one squadron for their RAF Battle Honours: Operation TELIC (Post-war) participation on Operation Barras.

A battle honour with the right to emblazon “Bosnia 1995” on their The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey): squadron standard is awarded to: My noble Friend the Minister in the House of Lords (the right hon. Baroness Goldie DL) has made the No. IV (Army Co-operation) No. 6 Squadron RAF following written ministerial statement. Squadron RAF On 10 October 2017, the Minister in the House of Lords A battle honour with the right to emblazon “Sierra Leone 2000” made a written ministerial statement announcing the award ontheir squadron standard is awarded to: of battle honours to squadrons of Her Majesty’s Royal Air No. 7 Squadron RAF Force, for their participation in Operation TELIC post-war consolidation and reconstruction phase during the period 1 [HCWS180] May 2003-22 May 2011. I am today announcing that Her Majesty the Queen has been graciously pleased to approve the award of a battle RAF Battle Honours for Operations in Afghanistan honour to one further squadron of Her Majesty’s Royal Air Force for their participation in Operation TELIC post-war consolidation and reconstruction phase during the period 1 The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey): May 2003-22 May 2011. My noble Friend the Minister in the House of Lords Battle honours may be “awarded to commemorate any notable battle, action or engagement in which aircrew or (the right hon. Baroness Goldie DL) has made the Royal Air Force regiment personnel played a memorable following written ministerial statement. part”. There are two levels of battle honour within the Royal I am today announcing that Her Majesty The Queen has Air Force. The first is the award of a battle honour which been graciously pleased to approve the award of battle recognises that a squadron played a notable and significant honours to squadrons of Her Majesty’s Royal Air Force for role in the campaign. The second, higher level confers the their participation in operations in Afghanistan during the right to emblazon the battle honour on the standard itself. period 7 October 2001 to 31 December 2014. 11WS Written Statements 24 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 12WS

Battle honours may be “awarded to commemorate any The review concluded that the functions of the RFCAs notable battle, action or engagement in which aircrew or remain valued and necessary and the RFCAs should Royal Air Force regiment personnel played a memorable continue in their role of key partner to Defence—a part”. There are two levels of battle honour within the Royal point made clear by the wide range of beneficiaries of Air Force. The first is the award of a battle honour which recognises that a squadron played a notable and significant the RFCAs’ work. The review makes a number of role in the campaign. The second, higher level confers the recommendations to strengthen the relationship between right to emblazon the battle honour on the Standard itself. Defence and the RFCAs, ensuring the RFCAs are on a Battle honours with emblazonment are reserved for those stable, sustainable footing to continue to deliver advocacy squadrons which are involved in direct confrontation with and support for reserves and cadets across the UK. an enemy and demonstrate gallantry and spirit under fire. Defence is currently working with other Government Six operational flying squadrons and nine Royal Air Departments and the RFCAs to understand how best Force regiment squadrons were awarded the highest honour of a battle honour with the right to emblazon. Battle honours to implement the recommendations.This will be announced were approved for 26 operational flying squadrons for their in due course. participation in operations in Afghanistan. The report will be placed in the Library of the House. [HCWS178] A Battle Honour with the right to emblazon “AFGHANISTAN 2001-2014” on their Squadron Standard is awarded to:

No. 7 Squadron RAF No. 3 Squadron RAF Regiment DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT No. 18 (Bomber) Squadron No. 15 Squadron RAF Regiment RAF Media Matters No. 27 Squadron RAF No. Squadron RAF Regiment No. 28 (Army Co-operation) No. 34 Squadron RAF Regiment Squadron RAF The Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and No. 47 Squadron RAF No. 51 Squadron RAF Regiment Sport (Oliver Dowden): On 22 January 2020, DCMS No. 78 Squadron RAF No. 58 Squadron RAF Regiment informed the House that my predecessor had issued a No. 1 Squadron RAF Regiment No. 63 Squadron RAF Regiment public interest intervention notice (PIIN) in respect of No. II Squadron RAF Regiment the acquisition by Daily Mail and General Trust (DMGT) of JPI Media Publications Ltd, and thus the i newspaper. A Battle Honour is awarded to: The PIIN triggered the requirement for the Competition No. 1 (Fighter) Squadron RAF No. 30 Squadron RAF and Markets Authority (CMA) to report to me on No. II (Army Co-operation) No. 31 Squadron RAF Squadron RAF jurisdictional and competition matters, and for Ofcom to report on the following media public interest No. 3 (Fighter) Squadron RAF No.32 (The Royal) Squadron RAF consideration: No. IV (Army Co-operation) No. 39 Squadron RAF Squadron RAF The need for, to the extent that it is reasonable and No. V (Army Co-operation) No. 51 Squadron RAF practicable, a sufficient plurality of views in newspapers in Squadron RAF each market for newspapers in the United Kingdom or a part of the United Kingdom. No. 8 Squadron RAF No. LXX Squadron RAF No. IX (Bomber) Squadron No. 99 Squadron RAF I received the CMA and Ofcom reports on by the RAF deadline of 13 March and have today published these No. 10 Squadron RAF No. 101 Squadron RAF on the www.gov.uk website. No. 12 (Bomber) Squadron No. 120 Squadron RAF I accept the CMA’s findings that while it is, or may be, RAF the case that a relevant merger situation has been created, No. XIII Squadron RAF No. 201 Squadron RAF the merger does not give rise to a realistic prospect of a No. 14 Squadron RAF No. 206 Squadron RAF substantial lessening of competition in any market. No. 23 Squadron RAF No. 216 Squadron RAF I have also agreed with Ofcom that the merger does No. XXIV Squadron RAF No. 617 Squadron RAF not raise concerns in relation to plurality of views in [HCWS179] newspapers. In light of this, and having considered representations submitted by interested parties in response to the PIIN, Reserve Forces’ and Cadet Forces’ Associations: DCMS has written to the parties today confirming my Annual Report decision not to refer the merger for a Phase 2 investigation. The role of the Secretary of State in this process is The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey): quasi-judicial and procedures are in place to ensure that I am today publishing the report of the review of the I act independently and have followed a process which reserve forces and cadets associations 2019. is fair and impartial. The review’s purpose was to assess and challenge the [HCWS182] continuing requirement, efficiency and good governance of the 13 RFCAs and, their joint committee, the council of RFCAs. The review was undertaken by the MOD, JUSTICE and an independent challenge panel was appointed to assure its robustness and impartiality. The review was UK’s National Preventive Mechanism: Annual Report conducted with the full participation of the RFCA community, and gathered evidence from a wide range of stakeholders across Government, Defence and the RFCAs’ The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice customers at the national and regional levels. I would (Robert Buckland): The United Nations optional protocol like to thank all those who contributed to the review. to the convention against torture and other cruel, inhuman 13WS Written Statements 24 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 14WS or degrading treatment or punishment (OPCAT), which the NPM’s independent role in safeguarding the human the UK ratified in December 2003, requires states parties rights of detainees across the UK. I also note the to establish a “national preventive mechanism” (NPM) NPM’sobservations around prisons, children in detention, to carry out visits to places of detention to prevent police custody, immigration detention and court custody. torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment The Government are committed to making prisons or punishment. places of safety and reform. Weare investing an additional The Government established the UK NPM in March £2.75 billion to transform jails, with tough new security 2009 (Hansard 31 March 2009, Vol. 490, Part No. 57, measures including x-ray body scanners, and creating Column 56WS). The UK NPM is currently composed 10,000 modern prison places to rehabilitate offenders. of 21 scrutiny bodies covering the whole of the UK. Our long-term ambition is to replace secure training centres and young offender institutions with secure Following previous practice, I have presented to schools, putting education, healthcare and purposeful Parliament the 10th NPM’s annual report (Command activity at the heart of young offender rehabilitation. Paper CP 228). This report covers the period from 1 April 2018 to 31 March 2019. I commend the important [HCWS185] work that the NPM has carried out over this period and

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 24 March 2020

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 187 TREASURY—continued Covid-19: Support for Businesses...... 189 NHS Funding ...... 195 Covid-19: VAT Reduction...... 196 Rent a Room Scheme...... 193 Emergency Cash Grant Scheme ...... 193 School Funding...... 194 Local Transport Infrastructure ...... 188 Taxation of Online Sales...... 187 Low-paid Workers: Wages Increase...... 197 Topical Questions ...... 199 Marine Renewables: Fiscal Support...... 196 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 24 March 2020

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL DEFENCE—continued STRATEGY ...... 5WS RAF Battle Honours: Operations Vulcan and Departmental Contingency Liability: Coronavirus Barras ...... 10WS Interruption Loan Scheme...... 5WS Reserve Forces’ and Cadet Forces’ Associations: Annual Report...... 11WS CABINET OFFICE...... 6WS DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 12WS UK Parliamentary Boundaries...... 6WS Media Matters ...... 12WS JUSTICE...... 12WS DEFENCE...... 9WS UK’s National Preventive Mechanism: Annual RAF Battle Honours for Operations in Report...... 12WS Afghanistan ...... 10WS RAF Battle Honours: Operation TELIC TREASURY ...... 8WS (Post-war) ...... 9WS Notification of Contingent Liability ...... 8WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 31 March 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 674 Tuesday No. 46 24 March 2020

CONTENTS

Tuesday 24 March 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 187] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Self-employed Persons: Financial Support [Col. 207] Answer to urgent question—(Steve Barclay)

British Citizens Abroad: FCO Help to Return Home [Col. 222] Answer to urgent question—(Dominic Raab)

Covid-19 Update [Col. 241] Statement—(Matt Hancock)

Contingencies Fund [Col. 254] Bill Presented, and read the First time

Wellbeing of Future Generations [Col. 255] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(CarolineLucas)—agreed to Bill Presented, and read the First time

Contingencies Fund Bill [Col. 259] Business of the House—(Jesse Norman)—agreed to Motion for Second Reading—(Jesse Norman)—agreed to Money Resolution—(Eddie Hughes)—agreed to Considered in Committee; not amended; considered; read the Third time and passed

Windrush Compensation Scheme (Expenditure) Bill [Col. 299] Considered in Committee; not amended; considered; read the Third time and passed

Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body [Col. 315] Motion—(Mr Rees-Mogg)—agreed to

Written Statements [Col. 5WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]