Vol. 735 Tuesday No. 272 28 February 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Middle East: Quartet Local Authorities: Standards Devolution: Wales Schools: Curriculum St Albans and Welwyn Hatfield (Boundary Change) Order 2012 Motion to Approve Public Services (Social Value) Bill Third Reading Scotland Bill Committee (3rd Day) Health and Social Care Bill Statement Scotland Bill Committee (3rd Day) (Continued) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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Lord Howell of Guildford: I think that the noble House of Lords Lord is realistic. The quartet is not in a position to achieve the magic progress that we want to see, but the Tuesday, 28 February 2012. moment may come when its usefulness can be developed. In the mean time, we retain confidence in it as a part of 2.30 pm the mechanism for taking things forward. Clearly, however, many other aspects need to be improved and Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool. strengthened.

Middle East: Quartet Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, how does the Question effect of the Iranian nuclear weapons crisis on Israel bear on the ostensible agenda of the quartet? Is there 2.36 pm not a lack of reality in the timescale as regards the Asked By Baroness Falkner of Margravine urgency of various matters? Will that have a bearing on the present agenda of the quartet? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the role and future of the Middle Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is asking East quartet. about the broader issue of Israel and Iran and the very tense situation that clearly exists. I think it was President The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Obama who, on becoming President, was advised that Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, the everything in the Middle East is connected with everything Government remain determined to do everything possible else. Israel’s concerns about Iran, and all our concerns to achieve a comprehensive peace in the Middle East. about Iran’s attempt to move to nuclear weapons, are We believe the quartet still has an important role in part of the Middle East imbroglio. However, we must achieving this. not let that take our eye too much off the need for the Middle East peace process to go ahead and for the Baroness Falkner of Margravine: Given the breakdown road blocks along that process—including the building of talks on 26 January, in the last iteration, and given of settlements, which is clearly a major obstacle—to that one side to the talks has no confidence whatever be overcome. in the representative of the quartet—to the extent that they will not even shake his hand at the meetings—and Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, with the rate of that the other side in the talks flagrantly disregards the Israeli settlement in Palestine continuing apace and representative’s deadlines for submissions and proposals, apparently unchecked, in precisely what respect has can the Government really stick to the view that they the situation improved on the ground? have complete confidence in the future of the quartet? Is my noble friend aware of President Sarkozy’s comment that the quartet is dead— Lord Howell of Guildford: As far as settlements are “Let’s stop kidding ourselves”? concerned, it has not improved at all. On the contrary, Will my noble friend tell the House what proposals the although the Jerusalem municipality has told the British Government have to put the quartet on a new footing representatives who make constant representations that under new leadership? for the moment it does not plan any further settlements, or any further demolition in east Jerusalem either, the settlements seem to continue. So there has been no Lord Howell of Guildford: We all share my noble improvement there. I was referring to Palestine industry friend’s disappointment at the slowness of progress in and enterprise and some beginnings—even in the miserable the Middle East peace process and the difficulties that conditions of Gaza—of advance in enterprise, thanks are being encountered—as well as at the suspension of to some noble and dynamic contributions by British the talks in Amman, although they have only been businesses. suspended and not abandoned altogether. However, I think that she is a shade harsh in her general judgment. We pay tribute to the efforts of Mr Blair and others in Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, if the Palestinian improving the situation on the ground in occupied parties, Fatah and Hamas, reach agreement in the Palestine, but one must be realistic: the quartet alone coming weeks on constituting a technocratic Government cannot achieve the progress that we all want to see. with Mahmoud Abbas as both President and Prime Such progress can happen only if the will is there, but Minister, will the British Government use their influence the will is not present on all the necessary sides in the to deal directly with the Government who emerge peace process to make progress along the road map. If from that process and not be impeded from doing so the will is not there, the quartet cannot achieve the by any objections from elsewhere? impossible. Lord Howell of Guildford: The answer is yes, provided Lord Anderson of Swansea: Does the noble Lord that Hamas shows some readiness to conform to the agree that the quartet is divided—for example over quartet principles, renounces violence and plays a Syria, given Russia’s view on it—and that it has been constructive role. Provided that that happens, we could ineffective, save marginally at the lower infrastructure then move forward, and certainly the British Government level; but that we cannot kill it because there is no would use all their influence and support to ensure alternative, and one day there may be a role for it? that that process did move forward. 1173 Middle East: Quartet[LORDS] Local Authorities: Standards 1174

Lord Alderdice: My Lords, from my visit there last The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department week, I have come away with the sense that some for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): important changes are taking place. Indeed, on the My Lords, the Standards Board regime actively Palestinian side, there is a sense of confidence which is encouraged vexatious complaints, often for political perhaps partly to do with the application to the United point-scoring. Councillors were often put through a Nations and other developments. However, is it not lengthy investigation process before the matter was clear that the efforts of the quartet itself are resulting resolved. A councillor should not be found to be in in little more than nugatory negotiations and arbitrary breach of the code of conduct if, in highlighting fraud, deadlines? Given that elections are now in the air so waste or incompetence, they do so in a proper way. widely among the participants both inside and outside, Our reforms will enable councils to deal with complaints would it not be better for the quartet to pull back and expeditiously, and require them to seek the views of an analyse how it could produce a strategy that over the independent person. next three to four years will produce serious negotiations, rather than to continue kicking at a door that will not lead it anywhere in the very short term? Lord Tyler: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for her very helpful response. During the Committee stage of the Localism Bill, I referred to the particular Lord Howell of Guildford: I think that my answer case of Councillor Esmond Jenkins, who was pursued has to be the same as the one that I gave to my noble to the Standards Board for England after he had friend earlier. The quartet is part of the mechanism, blown the whistle on corruption in Cotswold District but many other things need to change and improve. Council. Does my noble friend recall that the Minister There is the question of the recognition of Palestine as then responsible, our noble friend Lord Taylor of a state. The British Government believe that Palestine Holbeach, rightly said that such complaints to the has fulfilled most of the conditions for that although board could be petty, malicious, vexatious or politically we think that the ultimate statehood will be acquired motivated? I am grateful to my noble friend for reiterating when the occupation ends and when peace is achieved. some of those points. These things must all be pressed together. I do not I have already established that the Standards think that it would be wise at this stage to say that the Board for England spent in excess of £63,000 of quartet must be put on the back burner and not play taxpayers’ money on that case. Can my noble friend any role at all—it could play a role. At the moment, assure your Lordships’ House that the replacement there are obviously major difficulties in the way. regime to maintain the standards of integrity and behaviour in local government will avoid wasteful Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I have just returned expenditure on persecution of that sort? In particular, from a conference called by the Arab League in Qatar is she satisfied that councillors who investigate and on the subject of Jerusalem. At the end of that conference expose wrongdoing will not be accused of bringing a resolution supported by the Arab League was passed their authority into disrepute? to ask the United Nations to try to stop Israel’s annexation and Judaisation of east Jerusalem. Will the British Government and the quartet support this Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the changes we made move? to the standards committees and standards support were made, as the noble Lord will recall, as a result of concern in this House. Our thrust has always been to Lord Howell of Guildford: That is part of a jigsaw, ensure that this matter is run at a local level so the the aims of which would certainly have our full support. decisions made on how the system is set up will be left The position is that after the suspension of the Amman to local authorities. But I assure the noble Lord that talks, Mahmoud Abbas and others have made it quite we will be monitoring what happens as a result of clear that the aims are: border security, on which those changes and looking to see how local authorities Israel is supposed to report back by the end of March are dealing with allegations about the conduct of on what it does; a freeze on the settlements, which councillors—just to avoid, we hope, the problems that certainly has not occurred; and that if neither of those he mentioned and to find out the views of councils things happens, then indeed the whole process will go about the new arrangements. back to the United Nations—and we shall continue to use our best efforts to make progress there. Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, has the noble Baroness had a chance to reflect on the recent High Local Authorities: Standards Court decision in the case of Bideford Council? Does Question not she agree that it is “vexatious and frivolous”—the words in the Question—when local authorities are 2.44 pm taken to court for arranging voluntary sessions before council meetings where members are invited to say Asked By Lord Tyler prayers, as we do in this House? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what impact the new arrangements for monitoring standards in Baroness Hanham: My Lords, that was a legal English local authorities will have on the incidence decision which was interpreted, I think, as part of of vexatious and frivolous cases and on potential European Union law. It is clear that councillors can whistleblowers. voluntarily attend prayers if they wish. There is no 1175 Local Authorities: Standards[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Devolution: Wales 1176 compulsion on them to attend, but council authorities The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace can have prayers out of the chamber if people wish to of Tankerness): My Lords, the National Assembly for have them before a meeting. Wales is now able to pass laws in all 20 devolved subjects. The Commission on Devolution in Wales—the Silk Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, is the Minister commission—is looking at how the Welsh Government aware that under the new legislation the sanctions can be made more accountable for what they spend being considered and imposed by local authorities are and at any modifications to the present constitutional only as draconian as asking the leader of the group to arrangements that would enable the Welsh devolution have words with the offending member? Has my noble settlement to work more effectively. friend any observations as to how the sanctions can be more biting than those being imposed by a cross-section Lord Roberts of Llandudno: I thank the Minister for of councils that I have been observing? his reply. With an increasing number of powers being devolved to the Assemblies in Wales and Northern Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I think the noble Ireland and the Parliament in Scotland, what means Lord slightly underplays what the sanctions can be. are there to inform us of what decisions are taken at There can be censure. If it is a trivial matter, it can be that level in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland? dealt with by the leader of the group. It can be much Moreover, with increasing devolution, what role does more seriously dealt with. It can be taken to the the Minister see for this House when it is composed council for formal censure. Someone who is found to of Members from Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales have transgressed can also be removed from a committee and England? for a certain length of time. We have not allowed local authorities to suspend councillors as a result of such decisions, but I think we have put forward a perfectly Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, there are reasonable set of sanctions. regular exchanges at official and ministerial level where information is given as to legislation passing through Lord Tomlinson: As the noble Baroness has suggested this Parliament which has relevance for Wales, Scotland that the genesis of this legal judgment was European, and Northern Ireland, and there are close links the will she given an undertaking to write to me to explain other way. With regard to parliamentary and assembly precisely which part of European legislation is alleged exchanges, the Calman commission, on which I sat, to have been breached? thought that it would be advantageous if there was a greater flow of information between parliaments and assemblies, but recognised that that would be a Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I said that I thought matter for the parliaments and assemblies and not for it was; if that is not correct, I will write to the noble government. On the role of your Lordships’ House in Lord. relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it clearly has a role in examining matters which in the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, perhaps case of Wales are non-devolved. We have done so since coming back to the issue, I am sure that the noble 1999 and I can imagine that we will continue to give it Baroness is right to say that the Standards Board did the scrutiny that we would expect of a revising Chamber. not fulfil the task in the way that it was thought that it would, but there are instances where action should be taken against councillors where they have behaved Lord Wigley: My Lords, will the Minister accept inappropriately. The noble Baroness mentioned that, whereas the outcome of the referendum almost a monitoring. Can she give more substance on that? year ago to this week was quite clear-cut, the degree of Will there be a review after a certain period of time so devolution in various portfolios remains more unclear? that we can see whether the new system is working? In Wales, unlike Scotland, a portfolio is not devolved There need to be some safeguards for the public in its entirety but is dependent on interpretation of interest on this. legislation. In order for people to understand better how the devolution settlement is working, will he arrange for this to be reviewed so that we might have Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the impact assessment more clear-cut devolution that is better understood by for the new arrangements on standards provides for a civil servants, by the press and media, and particularly review within three to five years. That will take into by the electorate? account all the matters that the noble Lord has mentioned.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I recall Devolution: Wales taking through your Lordships’ House prior to the Question referendum an order in which we sought to try to bring together all the different parts which had been 2.50 pm the subject matter of legislative competence orders Asked By Lord Roberts of Llandudno over a number of years with the objective of achieving greater clarity. However, I note what the noble Lord To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps said. The Silk commission perhaps gives an opportunity they are taking to resolve issues arising from the for some of these issues to be aired. Obviously, the devolution of powers to the National Assembly for Government will have to consider what that commission Wales. proposes in due course. 1177 Devolution: Wales[LORDS] Schools: Curriculum 1178

Baroness Gale: My Lords, when the Government Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I think that established the Commission on Devolution in Wales—the the legislative consent Motion, originally described in so-called Silk commission—it was surprising to learn Scotland as the Sewel convention after the noble Lord, that reform of the Barnett formula was excluded from Lord Sewel, who announced it, has worked well in its remit, despite it being a flagship manifesto commitment practice. It is my understanding that if legislation of both coalition parties. Are the Government still which has implications for Wales is brought before committed to reform of the Barnett formula and, if your Lordships’ House and the House of Commons, it so, when will it happen? will be the subject of a similar convention. After each Queen’s Speech there is an obligation on the Secretary of State for Wales to consult the National Assembly Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I am sure for Wales about UK government proposals that may that the noble Baroness will reflect that the Barnett have an impact on Wales, not least since the further formula has implications for all parts of the United devolution on devolved matters. Kingdom and therefore it would not have been appropriate for the Silk commission to look at it in relation to Wales in isolation. That is why the Calman commission, Lord Touhig: My Lords, loath as I am to be in looking at Scottish devolution, did not feel able to disagreement with my colleague on the Front Bench so look at the Barnett formula. This Government have far as concerns the Barnett formula, I say to the Minister, indicated that, while there is a case for looking at the “Review the Barnett formula but don’t rush it”. Barnett formula, it is important that we first bring the finances of the United Kingdom under control. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I hear the noble Lord That is a precondition for any movement on the and he may wish to make that point in the debate later. Barnett formula. For noble Lords who are keen to talk about the Barnett formula, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has tabled an amendment to the Scotland Bill Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: As regards the anomalies which I very much hope will be debated later this in relation to Welsh devolution and some of the problems evening. arising from Scottish devolution, which we will be discussing at length later today, as well as the West Lothian question, on which the Government have set Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, one of the up a commission, would those matters not all be remaining issues after more than a decade of devolution better dealt with if we were to look at the English is the dire state of the Welsh economy after the Welsh dimension and devolution within or to England? Labour Government have ruled the country. They have got rid of the Welsh Development Agency, which Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I think that has cost us a great deal, and one Welsh academic has there has been some history of that, not least pioneered described it as, by the Government of whom the noble Lord was a “the worst policy decision made in Wales in living memory”. member. I do not seem to remember that there was Does my noble and learned friend agree with that huge enthusiasm for it in the north-east of England, verdict? but it is still a very pertinent point and one which I am sure will be raised again in debates on this issue in the future. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I am not in a position to agree with that, not having read that particular report. Clearly the economy of Wales is a Baroness Randerson: My Lords— matter in which your Lordships’ House has a legitimate interest, concerning, as it does, both devolved and Noble Lords: Next Question. non-devolved matters. I understand that on St David’s Day later this week the House of Commons will be debating Welsh affairs generally, and I strongly expect Schools: Curriculum the economy to dominate and not least the Welsh Development Agency and the point made by my noble Question friend. 2.59 pm

Lord Elystan-Morgan: Does the noble and learned Asked By Lord Rennard Lord accept that, although as a constitutional precept To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they this Westminster Parliament can, even in relation to will take steps to prevent the booklet Pure Manhood: any matter delegated to any one of the constituent How to Become the Man God Wants You to Be parliaments, still legislate as it would wish in relation being used as part of the school curriculum. to any devolved area, in relation to Scotland some 14 years ago a convention was kindly agreed to the effect that this House would not dream of doing that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools unless so specifically requested by the Scottish Parliament? (Lord Hill of Oareford): My Lords, the Government Particularly now in the context of the added powers take the issue of homophobia in schools very seriously. enjoyed by Wales since the referendum, will such a This and other forms of bullying or discrimination are convention be considered by Her Majesty’s Government of course covered by the Equality Act 2010. However, in relation to Wales? in passing the Equality Act, curriculum materials were 1179 Schools: Curriculum[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Schools: Curriculum 1180 excluded, as a ban could inhibit classroom debate and to us, or to the YPLA in the case of an academy. the illustration of different viewpoints. We have no Ofsted can have a look, and we can take a view as to plans to change the position reached in 2010. whether the material is being used inappropriately. If the material to which both my noble friends refer were Lord Rennard: My Lords, can the Minister then tell being used to make the point that this kind of view is a us what specific actions the Government might consider minority view, that would seem to be a perfectly to prevent the distribution in any school of literature proper use to which it could be put. that is clearly homophobic, undermines HIV prevention campaigns and is likely to incite further homophobic Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, I think it bullying? is important to clarify this. Is the Minister aware that the Explanatory Notes written by his own department Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, the Government to accompany the Equality Act made it clear that the are extremely clear that material used for the purpose curriculum is covered by the Act? This would obviously of inciting homophobic bullying would be completely outlaw any activity—such as the document we have improper. The Government would want to take action; been talking about this afternoon—which could lead it would fall foul of the Equality Act and various to discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation other pieces of legislation. The question is whether we or potentially encourage homophobic bullying. Can should ban all materials, whatever they are, to which he please clarify once and for all the status of this any of us individually might take exception. The position document? A public clarification on this could, perhaps, that was reached in 2010 on the Equality Act seems to lance the boil of some of the controversial debate me right. It draws a distinction between how children taking place on this subject . are taught and what goes on in schools—and it is clear that there should not be that kind of behaviour—and the use of different kinds of material from which, used Lord Hill of Oareford: I hope I have explained, but properly, people could conclude that material of the if I have failed I will try to make it clearer. My sort my noble friend mentioned was full of all sorts of understanding is that there is a clear distinction between errors of the kind to which he referred. what is able to be taught in schools and teaching that encouraged homophobic bullying or inappropriate behaviour of any sort, which would clearly fall foul Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, have I been of a range of different pieces of legislation. That is wrongly under the impression that in this country we clearly wrong and we would deplore it. However, the no longer ban books or, indeed, burn them? If equality ban on that kind of behaviour and what is done in legislation, while enacted in the name of social progress, lessons does not extend to particular source material. has the effect of dragging us back to that illiberal state For example, there may be people who think that the of affairs, may there not be a case for reviewing the “Merchant of Venice” as a script, a text or a document relevant aspects of the legislation? encouraged anti-Jewish sentiment. Should that be outlawed? No, it clearly should not. That is the distinction Lord Hill of Oareford: The point that I was trying I am seeking to draw between the use to which materials to make—perhaps not very clearly—was that the precise are put and the materials themselves. point reached about curriculum materials in connection with the Equality Act in 2010 was that it would not Lord Adonis: My Lords, has the Minister read the lead to the conclusion which the noble Lord and I book and does he have a personal view on it? would want to avoid: that is, that materials to which individuals might take exception would be banned. We absolutely do not want to get to a point where that Lord Hill of Oareford: As it happens, I have read happens; those days—from whatever point of view the material to which the noble Lord referred. Many that is taken—are fortunately past. Because of the views expressed in it are not ones to which I would exemption in the Equality Act, that situation does not subscribe. However, there are many pieces of information, arise. material and literature that contain views to which I do not subscribe, and I do not have a great desire to Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, is not using this ban people who hold views different from mine. particular document in schools not completely contrary to the department’s guidance, which bans the use of Lord Avebury: My Lords, is it not taking a inappropriate materials in sex education classes? In a sledgehammer to crack a nut to ask parents or others country where three young men have recently been who object to homophobic material being used in jailed for distributing leaflets promoting hatred of schools to apply to Ofsted or take action under the homosexual people, is it not clear that this document Equality Act? is inappropriate and therefore against the department’s guidance? Lord Hill of Oareford: I am sorry; I did not hear the beginning of that question. Lord Hill of Oareford: My noble friend is right that the Government issue clear guidance as to what materials are appropriate. If parents, pupils or others are concerned Lord Avebury: The noble Lord implied in an earlier about the use to which particular materials are put, answer that the only remedy that a parent had if they then they have every right to complain to the school, objected to the use of homophobic material in the 1181 Schools: Curriculum[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1182

[LORD AVEBURY] Crown Estate Commissioner and the BBC Trust member classroom was to apply to Ofsted or bring proceedings for Scotland as they are set out in the Bill. Noble under the Equality Act. Is that not taking a sledgehammer Lords had the benefit of a debate that took place in to crack a nut? Committee on 2 February 2012 on Amendment 44A, which was moved by my noble friend Lord Sewel in an Lord Hill of Oareford: I hope that I said that there attempt to identify the reason for these apparent was a range of routes. Those options are at the extreme differences. I shall return to the Hansard report of that end of the routes. Complaints may also be made to the debate shortly; I give the Minister notice that I will school, the governing body and the department, and draw on the words of his colleagues in the debate to to the YPLA on behalf of the department. support the amendments that I have tabled. I will say also that I welcome Amendment 45 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk of Douglas. I St Albans and Welwyn Hatfield (Boundary put my name to it as it exactly replicates an amendment Change) Order 2012 tabled in another place by my honourable friend the Motion to Approve Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West, Tom Greatrex, but not debated because of insufficient time. 3.07 pm Amendments 44B and 45A amend the title given in Moved By Baroness Hanham Clause 22 to the new commission role from the “Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner” to the, That the draft order laid before the House on “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland”. 16 January be approved. I recognise that in itself this is a minor change to the Relevant document: 38th Report from the Joint Bill, but it raises a wider point about the consistency Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in of the new roles for Scotland that are created by this Grand Committee on 14 February. Bill. The proposal for the change in title is derived directly from the format established in Clause 20 with Motion agreed. the, “BBC Trust member for Scotland”— not the “Scottish BBC Trust member”. We believe that Public Services (Social Value) Bill there should be consistency in the Bill in the naming of Third Reading the new executive roles in Scotland and we ask the Minister why the decision was taken to use a different 3.07 pm configuration for the title of the “Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner”. Bill passed. The point about inconsistency becomes more important with the issue raised by Amendment 45B. The Scotland Bill appointments process for the BBC Trust member for Scotland is that: Committee (3rd Day) “A Minister of the Crown must not exercise without the Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Delegated agreement of the Scottish Ministers functions relating to selection Powers Committee, 17th Report from the Constitution for a particular appointment”. Committee. However, the appointments process proposed for the “Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner” is in, 3.08 pm “the recommendation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer”, in consultation with Scottish Ministers. This is the Clause 22 : Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner exact point that my noble friend Lord Sewel raised in the debate on 2 February. I am looking now at the Official Report and the words of the noble Baroness, Amendment 44B Lady Rawlings, in seeing off my noble friend’s amendment. Moved by Lord Browne of Ladyton She said that, “broadcasting remains a reserved matter”.—[Official Report, 2/2/12; 44B: Clause 22, page 15, line 8, leave out “Scottish Crown col. 1785.] Estate Commissioner” and insert “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland” So does the role of the Crown Estate Commission. She went on to say: Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I am sure that “It is our view that this”— your Lordships’ House is delighted to return to Committee my noble friend’s amendment— on the Scotland Bill. It seems some time since we “does not give the Scottish Government sufficient involvement in discussed these matters—and indeed it is, so we are the appointment process. Securing the agreement of the Scottish glad of the opportunity to debate this important piece Government is the appropriate way of involving them in the of constitutional legislation. appointment process for the BBC Trust member for Scotland. The existing provision gives the Scottish Government an important The amendments I will move and speak to today and appropriate power and the UK Government do not wish to are probing in nature. Amendments 44B, 45A and 45B weaken this. I hope that this satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, seek to explore the apparent inconsistency between and I urge him to withdraw his amendment”.—[Official Report, the names and the appointment processes of the Scottish 2/2/12; col. 1786.] 1183 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1184

I draw exactly on that argument and wish to apply it to noble and learned Lord’s right honourable friend the the appointment of the new Scottish commissioner for Prime Minister, I would like to ask the Minister what the Crown Estates. discussions he and his colleagues in Government have Amendment 45B brings the appointments process had with Scottish Ministers since the publication of for the Scottish commissioner closer into line with the Committee’s report, specifically in the issue of the that of the BBC Trust member by proposing that Crown Estate in Scotland. Does he believe that any of Scottish Ministers should make the recommendation, the proposals put forward within the Scotland Bill “with the agreement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer”. Committee majority report meet the Secretary of State’s three tests—namely, of being based on sound evidence; These are not issues on which I will seek to test the capable of establishing broad consensus; and, whereas opinion of the House. I raise them in an effort simply clearly benefitting Scotland, not detrimental to the to elicit further information from the Minister about interests of the UK as a whole? Those are the three the reasons for these inconsistencies. I am fully prepared tests that are apparently to be applied in the future to to accept that there may be good ones, but I cannot for anything that is fit for further devolution. the life of me at the moment think of what they are, but I wait with bated breath. I close by reminding the Minister that the Calman Commission was crystal clear in its opposition to the I would also like to speak in support of Amendment devolution of legislative competence for the Crown 45, which replicates a provision tabled by my honourable Estate in Scotland. I hope that the Minister will be friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West able to give this House his assurances that the Government to probe the appointments criteria intended for the would not seek to go against this recommendation at new role of the Scottish Crown Estate commissioner. this late stage in the legislative process. At present, there has been no discussion and no detail presented about the sort of qualifications expected of this important role. I look forward to hearing from the noble and learned Lord what conversations the Lord Selkirk of Douglas: My Lords, want to address Government have had with the Crown Estate Commission Amendment 45, to which the noble Lord has just with regard to the proposed new role and the appointments referred. This amendment inserts into Clause 22 a process and qualifications expected. In anticipation of commitment to ensure that before a person finds himself this debate, I had inquiries made of the commissioner’s or herself in the role of Crown Estate Commissioner office as to what qualifications would be expected. for Scotland, that person should be well qualified to With all due respect to the answer I received, it did not do the job. The reason for this is that the resources and make it any clearer to me exactly what would be responsibilities of the Crown Estate Commission in expected of a commissioner, never mind the one who Scotland are very great—its value is believed to be represented Scotland. about £207 million—and I understand that last year, its revenue surplus was more than £9 million, to which 3.15 pm the Treasury was entitled under the Civil List Act 1952. The actual Crown Estate is very considerable in As I am on my feet—and on a more general note—I Scotland, and has many responsibilities for farms, want to raise another issue. The Secretary of State for forests and estates, some of which have many sites of Scotland told the Scotland Bill Committee last September special scientific interest. But the responsibilities do that the Crown Estate Commission’s operations in not stop there. Scotland are, The various Crown regalia include the areas on the “still up for debate and consideration”. coast between high and low tide, and it is no surprise In the context of the Scotland Bill I would like to ask that the Crown Estate has the rights to the foreshore the Minister what he believes the Secretary of State and the seabed, as well as rights for minerals and for meant by this comment, and whether we might see any salmon fishing. The Minister, the noble and learned significant changes to the Bill in relation to the Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, may be one of the administration of the Crown Estate in Scotland before few in this House who will be aware that in Orkney the Bill passes through the House. I know also that the and Shetland, which he used to represent as an MP, Scottish Affairs Select Committee is currently undertaking the Crown Estate had absolutely no salmon rights at an inquiry into the management of the Crown Estate all. This is because in the past feudal law did not apply and the role and working practice of the Crown Estate there, but udal law did. However, I must say that the Commission in Scotland, and is expected to produce a Crown Estate has been extremely busy elsewhere, and report in mid-March. is actively helping to develop ports and harbours I would have passed over that without comment, which will benefit the tourist industry which is so but for the comments reported by the Prime Minister important to Scotland. It has, in addition, many major in his recent visit to Scotland. I would be grateful if investments in renewable energy, and may invest up to in this context the Minister could inform the House £20 million more during the next few years. whether the Government are open at least to the I have a very high regard for the Crown Estate possibility of implementing any of the recommendations commissioners and wonder whether it might be that may arise from the report of that committee in appropriate to recognise in this legislation their expertise this Bill. in carrying out their important duties. At present, no The Scotland Bill Committee majority report sets detail is put forward in the Bill relating to the qualification out a detailed proposal for the devolution of wide of the person who might be appointed. This probing competency over the Crown Estate. Again, in the amendment would ensure that the holder of this office context of the comments made in Scotland by the will remain highly qualified. I am grateful to the noble 1185 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1186

[LORD SELKIRK OF DOUGLAS] relationship would be similar to that enjoyed by Canada Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, and the noble and and Australia, but it would certainly not mean that the learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, for adding United Kingdom continues. For many people this may their support to this amendment. seem a kind of historical fact, but it is very important It has not escaped us that the Secretary of State for that we understand this, particularly when we have Scotland recently made a significant statement about people in high office who seem determined to mislead the Crown Estate. He established a coastal communities people. I repeat that if Scotland leaves the United fund, a grant-giving body, which comes into effect Kingdom, there will be no United Kingdom. I do not from April. He is hoping for innovative bids. This is know what a kingdom represented by England, Ireland funded from the Crown Estate’s marine activities. The and Wales would be called. fund is UK-wide and relates to charities, businesses, To return to the subject of the amendment, the social enterprise and local organisations. It allows for use of the terminology “Scottish Crown Estate the support of economic development relating to the Commissioner” is wholly wrong, and I hope that my environment, education and health. I understand that noble friend will feel able to accept the amendment £4 million will be allocated every year in Scotland. from the noble Lord, Lord Browne, which seems entirely That is an indication of revenues raised in Scotland sensible and very necessary. being put to very good use. Is it not the case that, with the Crown Estate Commission having such an important The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, I am not role, the person who looks after its interests should certain that I fully agree with my noble friend. be properly qualified? If the Minister in his wisdom considers this amendment is not strictly necessary, I hope that he will give us all satisfactory reassurances. A noble Lord: That is a first.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I support the The Earl of Mar and Kellie: Indeed. Let us try to amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord identify what we are talking about. The Scottish Crown Browne of Ladyton. This may appear to be simply a Estate is a pre-union institution. It was put together matter of terminology, but a very important point is over many hundreds of years, developed particularly being made and it is not one just of consistency. The by King James IV, and one of the things that Scotland use of the phrase “Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner” brought to the union. Therefore the reference to a in the Bill implies that there is a Scottish Crown. It is Scottish Crown Estate commissioner sounds wholly not a Scottish Crown estate; it is the Crown Estate in correct. As regards the BBC— Scotland. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, makes that clear by suggesting Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I hate to mention this, that the commissioner should be referred to as the but since then we have had the union of the Crowns “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland”. and the union of the Parliaments. When the Scottish That is deeply worrying and I do not know what is Crown Estate came into that union, it became part of going on in the Scotland Office. This sloppy attention the United Kingdom with a single monarch, and it is to language is creeping in. It has a sort of nationalist the Crown Estate in Scotland. I know that the noble feel about it. I should check with the clerk that it is Earl has very considerable historical roots, but we within the rules of order to refer to the Crown here, have to use the terminology that is appropriate for our but it might be appropriate to point out that the time. Does he not agree? English Crown was taken over by the Scottish Crown in 1603 in a reverse takeover. The Earl of Mar and Kellie: No, I do not. No matter On an issue related to this use of language, the First what the noble Lord says, the Scottish Crown Estate Minister the other day referred to how after independence existed. I was going to make a point about the BBC. there would still be a United Kingdom, which is That is undoubtedly a British, 20th century creation, absolute nonsense. The United Kingdom was created and therefore the idea of a BBC Trust member for in 1707 when the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom Scotland is quite appropriate, but I do not think it is of England— right to enter into the pretence that the Crown Estate is a British institution in Scotland. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Does the noble Lord mean 1606, not 1707? Lord Maxton: My Lords, I wonder whether I can clarify the history on this. The union of the Crowns in Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: It is nice to have something 1603 formed the kingdom of Great Britain. The United on which to disagree with the noble Lord. In 1603, we Kingdom was formed in 1800 when a separate treaty had the union of the Crowns. In 1707, we had the with Ireland was also brought in. That gets the history union of the Parliaments. The kingdom of Scotland absolutely correct. and the kingdom of England ceased to exist in 1707 because the United Kingdom was created. Therefore, Lord Sanderson of Bowden: My Lords, I wish to it is illiterate as well as misleading to suggest that there intervene in this debate particularly in relation to would still be a United Kingdom. If Scotland were to Amendment 45, tabled in the name of my noble friend leave the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom would Lord Selkirk. The qualifications of the Crown Estate cease to exist. Whether or not the monarch went on to commissioner for Scotland are absolutely vital. I have become the head of Scotland as head of state, the a certain amount of knowledge of this, having worked 1187 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1188 with four of the most recent Crown Estate commissioners Mansfield, who was not just Crown Estate commissioner for Scotland. The most important thing to remember for Scotland but first commissioner for the United is that they have to have an extremely good knowledge Kingdom, which shows that Scotland is often best of farming and to know the countryside inside out. I throughout the United Kingdom. I hope that what my am not so keen on what my noble friend has put in noble friend has said in the course of this discussion about the “law of Scotland”, but I am sure that all will be taken on board and that my noble and learned good farmers know about that. The last three Scottish friend will be able to accept this very wise piece of commissioners have all been practical farmers, people advice. who know what is going on on the land. That, so far as I am concerned, is the most important part of what we are now discussing. The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace In the past few years, two of the recent members of Tankerness): My Lords, I thank all noble Lords from Scotland have become first commissioners for who have taken part in this debate. It has been an the Crown Estate. However it is decided who should interesting and useful curtain-raiser to our debates be the Scottish commissioner, one must bear in mind today and important points have been made. I do not that if someone is very good, they will probably go intend to go down the history-lesson route but I will right to the top. Although I am happy to see changes deal with the point made by my noble friend Lord made to bring the Scottish Parliament more into the Forsyth. It is an opportunity to explain why different loop, if you like, we have had a good example recently. terminology and a different process of appointment We do not need to look at the crystal, we have the have been used. Quite clearly, there is genuine need for book. We have these experienced men who have carried clarification of that matter and I hope I will be able to out their work on behalf of the Crown Estate extremely do that. well. I for one would urge a little bit of caution as to I will first take the issue of the qualification of the how the person is chosen. person who will be appointed as the Scottish Crown Estate commissioner. I thank my noble friend Lord 3.30 pm Selkirk for his amendment. When I was Member of Lord Curry of Kirkharle: I do not for one moment Parliament for Orkney and Shetland, I had many want to contribute to the history lesson but can contribute dealings with the Crown Estate on issues of udal law, on the basis that I served on the Crown Estate for not least as to whether certain marina berths should eight years. I was actively involved when commissioners have charges levied on them by the Crown Estate, or from England, Scotland or Wales were appointed to whether slipways passed over land that belonged to the board of the Crown Estate and can assure noble the Crown Estate or to the udal landowner. Some I Lords that it takes the process of appointment very won, some I did not. However, it indicates the breadth seriously indeed. Advice is taken on the process itself, of the work the Crown Estate undertakes, including but it is a deliberate policy of the Crown Estate to fish farming and marinas. Inshore and offshore renewable appoint someone of stature from Scotland, who is developments are, of course, becoming increasingly going to contribute on behalf of Scotland, has a good important within the area covered by the Crown Estate. understanding of the Scottish rural and fisheries scenes, The position of the Crown Estate commissioner and as far as possible will build a good relationship requires experience of operating at a senior board with the Scottish Parliament. I am reasonably relaxed level as well as knowledge of one or more of the about the precise qualifications that the amendment business sectors and activities in which the Crown suggests. It is quite possible to encourage a CPD Estate operates. These points were very forcibly made programme, once the commissioner has been appointed, by my noble friend Lord Sanderson of Bowden and by to ensure that the commissioner is fully equipped to the noble Lord, Lord Curry, who obviously speaks represent all the interests in Scotland. from his own experience of having been a Crown Estate I should just add that the Crown Estate has been commissioner. very active in investing in Scotland. The whole commission The fact that my noble friend’s amendment relates is very committed to the Scottish agenda and will no specifically to land management and law would put an doubt continue to be committed to it. I will also unnecessary restriction on who could be appointed. correct an earlier comment—the Crown Estate certainly Of course, as we have already heard in this debate, has fish-farming interests in both Orkney and Shetland. there are areas of the Crown Estate’s business other I have visited both of them on a number of occasions than property or law with which it may well be an wearing my Crown Estate hat and tried to build reasonable advantage for an appointee to have familiarity. The relationships with the fishing communities there. Bill provides for the person who should be appointed The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, the noble Lord, as a Scottish Crown Estate commissioner to have Lord Curry, has talked about fishing in Scotland, and knowledge of Scotland and conditions there, but that my noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie talked about the person might in addition have a much broader range Crown Estate Commission being set up before the Act of experience and expertise that he or she can bring to of Union. There are some areas of the foreshore of the board. There might also already be commissioners Scotland and some fishing areas that do not belong to on the board with expertise and experience in the the Crown Estate because of historical precedent. areas specified by the amendment. On the second leg of my noble friend’s amendment— Lord Lyell: I am most grateful to my noble friend the experience of the functions of the Crown Estate—I Lord Selkirk for his amendment and strongly support think it is fair to say, and I am sure the noble Lord, it. I had the honour to be the apprentice of the Earl of Lord Curry, will correct me if I am wrong, that few if 1189 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1190

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] that that gives the assurance sought by the noble Lord, any Crown Estate commissioners when appointed had Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth—but direct experience of the functions of the Crown Estate maybe not. under the 1961 Act. The right person for the job will need to have knowledge of Scotland and other relevant skills and experience. I hope the Committee will agree Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Can we have assurances with me that it is important to achieve a balance of that, after the Bill is enacted, they will continue to be appropriate expertise on the Crown Estate board without appointed under the Nolan code? A lot of us fear—and placing undue restrictions or stipulations that could this applies to the Crown Estate commissioner and well rule out people who might otherwise be suitable even more to the BBC Trust representative—that if candidates. I certainly think that the spirit of my noble there is any undue political interference in that friend’s amendment is in seeking to ensure that those appointment, a lot of people in Scotland would have bits of experience were brought to bear, but I hope grave concern. he recognises that it will be impossible through the appointments process to have regard to other fields of Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, there is no experience as well if we put on restrictions. intention to change the manner of appointments under the Office of Public Appointments code. However, I Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: The Minister mentioned will come on to talk about the consultation process the appointments process, but is there a clear that is due to take place, which by its very nature, as it understanding or requirement that the process must is between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the be carried out according to the principles of public Scottish Ministers, will have a political dimension to appointments throughout the United Kingdom? I know it. One of the purposes of appointments under the that there are growing fears in Scotland, because of Office of Public Appointments code is to ensure that the dominance of the First Minister and the way in there is indeed transparency and open competition which he seeks to impose his views on institutions and to achieve, as well, a balance of skills and backgrounds and organisations, that it is vital that there is a properly and avoid any potential conflicts of interest. constituted appointments process for all public The amendment would change “Scottish Crown appointments. Estate Commissioner” to, “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland”. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I certainly believe that Perhaps I may explain to my noble friend that “Scottish” there should be transparency in the appointments is not intended to qualify “Crown”, or indeed to process. Of course, we will come on to the actual mode qualify the two words “Crown Estate”, but to qualify of appointment of the Scottish Crown Estate the three words “Crown Estate Commissioner”. There commissioner, which would involve consultation with are Crown Estate commissioners and therefore “Scottish” Scottish Ministers. It is fair to explain why, in terms of is the adjective to be applied to them. Unless we put nomenclature and mode of appointment, we have commas in, I am not quite sure how we could make it different arrangements for the Crown Estate commissioner clearer than that. as opposed to BBC Trust members, for example. Lord Maclennan of Rogart: But the problem about Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I should say in support “Scottish” being used as an adjective to qualify three of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I think he was words, or two words, is that it is not at all clear. It is asking for rather more than that. I think he was asking extremely ambiguous as to whether the individual has for an assurance that the appointment would be subject to be Scottish and, if so, what definition is being to the normal Nolan rules and procedures, not just applied. I think, for example, of the Duke of Atholl, transparency. who might be said to be Scottish but who spends practically no time in Scotland. Admittedly, his knowledge Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I give way to the noble of Scotland may be quite considerable, but what does Lord, who may be able to shed light on this. Scottish mean? I remember having a discussion about this with the Lord Lyon when I was gazetted. He Lord Curry of Kirkharle: As the first Crown Estate claimed that I was Scottish because I had a Scottish commissioner who will be appointed under Nolan name. Frankly, this is not sufficiently clear and the rules, I can say that those rules apply absolutely to the proposed amendment is much clearer. appointments to the Crown Estate. It is a very open and transparent process and, in Scotland, an agency Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, the position would be used and it would be publicly advertised to is that it must be a person who knows about conditions try to attract the best people to that post. If there are in Scotland as they relate to the functions of the those who are considered appropriate, the agency would commissioners but it does not say that the person has try to approach and encourage those with suitable to be of Scottish ancestry or indeed has to have skills to apply for the position. Scottish a name. As we have already discussed and debated, they may have a number of other qualities Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am grateful to and it should not be restricted simply to a knowledge the noble Lord for that explanation. Indeed, the of land management or the law. If we were to start to commissioners are appointed under the Office for the pin it down more than that, we would start to get into Commissioner for Public Appointments code. I hope difficulties as we might be excluding people who have 1191 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1192 much more to offer and who have a lot of potential. Scotland” makes sense in that context. The amendment Clearly, my noble friend is not satisfied, but if he has a would not affect the appointments process— better wording— Lord Browne of Ladyton: I am grateful to the noble Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am a seeker after truth and learned Lord the Advocate-General for Scotland here, but the intervention of my noble friend illustrates for giving way. When I came into the Chamber of your the absurdity of the wording. It never occurred to me Lordships’ House today, the Advocate-General for that “Scottish” would apply to the commissioner. What Scotland was answering a Question about Wales. is being proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, which is, Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Because I have been “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland”, asked to answer to your Lordships’ House on matters gives absolute clarity that this is the person who will be relating to the Wales Office, as indeed I am asked to responsible for Scotland in the Crown Estate. My answer on matters relating to the Scotland Office, concern related to the fact that it was suggesting that it although I am not a Scotland Office Minister, and on was the Scottish Crown Estate whereas my noble matters relating to the Attorney-General’s Office as friend thinks it might be the Scottish commissioner. well. It would be unfortunate if it were suggested that Therefore, we have in this debate illustrated why the the Crown Estate commissioner for Scotland was only noble Lord, Lord Browne, is absolutely right. I hope for Scotland and did not have responsibilities. To that my noble and learned friend will accept his answer the noble Lord’s point, I do not exercise any amendment. functions as Advocate-General for England because it does not have an Advocate-General. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend but the problem with, Lord Sewel: Would a way out be to change it to the “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland”, “Crown Estate Commissioner from Scotland”? is that it would suggest that the Crown Estate commissioner’s role was restricted to Scotland. That is Lord Wallace of Tankerness: For the reasons given not the case. The person is expected to play a part in by my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart, the the board as a whole and the person’s responsibility Duke of Atholl may not actually have come from should not be physically restricted to Scotland. That is Scotland but may have had a lot to contribute. If why we believe that to use the phrase the, someone has a bright idea that squares all these circles, “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland”, I would be interested to hear from them. would restrict the role which that person could play on the board. That would be a very unfortunate thing to Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, would perhaps do. As we already heard, some of the previous Crown “Crown Estate Commissioner with special responsibility Estate commissioners who had a Scottish remit have for Scotland” solve all the problems? gone on to be the first Crown Estate commissioner. It would be very disappointing indeed if we were to use a Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The noble Lady’s terminology that suggested that this person could not suggestion certainly sounds much more promising. It actually contribute to the work of the board when it could mean that we were not putting an artificial related to matters outwith Scotland—or furth of Scotland, restriction on the role that that person could play if I can use that expression. on the board as a whole. As other noble Lords have indicated in this debate, the contribution made by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: If my noble and learned the Crown Estate commissioner who currently has friend will allow me, if that argument stands then how responsibilities of a Scottish nature has been very have we managed to get away with the present incumbent important to the overall working of the board. If we being called the Scottish commissioner? were to limit it by territory, there are parts of the United Kingdom where the Crown Estate does not Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am not sure that we necessarily have any activity and therefore it would are getting away with it. I am actually trying to propose become very unfortunate. I shall reflect on what the that it is the commissioner who will have knowledge noble Lady has said. It was a helpful suggestion that about conditions in Scotland. There is a distinction, if reflects the fact that the person ought to have a knowledge one chooses to reflect for a moment— of Scotland and be able to make a contribution on it, but they should also have a broader expertise that they can bring to the work of the board. That is what we 3.45 pm are seeking to achieve. Lord Maxton: If you follow the logic of the argument that the noble and learned Lord has just put, it implies Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I apologise for interrupting that the representative for Scotland on the board of my noble and learned friend so frequently, but his the BBC could contribute only if the discussion was argument needs a bit of shoring up. As I understand about Scotland. That is nonsense and we all know it. it, the argument is that if the Crown Estate commissioner were the Crown Estate commissioner for Scotland, he Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I shall would not be able to participate on the board because explain. The BBC Trust is constituted in a very different he would appear to be concerned solely with Scottish way and using the expression “the BBC trustee for interests. Can I take it, then, that the Government are 1193 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1194

[LORD FORSYTH OF DRUMLEAN] powers in relation to the Crown Estate. The Government planning to change the name of the Secretary of State believe that the Crown Estate operating on a UK-wide for Scotland? On my noble and learned friend’s argument, basis offers the best value across the whole of the that would imply that the Secretary of State for Scotland United Kingdom, but we recognise the role that the could not participate in Cabinet on matters that were Crown Estate plays in local communities and wish to across the range. That is an absurd argument, and my work with it to ensure that it operates most effectively noble and learned friend might at least indicate that he with them. will go away and think about it. Particular to that is the coastal communities fund, which was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Selkirk. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am grateful to my The Chief Secretary to the Treasury announced the noble friend for the shoring up. The very fact that we establishment of that fund, which will be financed by have had this debate on the wording suggests that if the Government through the allocation of funding we had proposed something else, I can imagine that he equivalent to 50 per cent of the revenue from the would have been one of those saying, “Of course, you Crown Estate’s marine activities. It is linked to revenue mean that this person can make a contribution only in that is raised by the Crown Estate’s marine activities respect of Scotland and that is not acceptable as that each year and the funding will be available on a bid person needs to have a wider remit”. As I indicated to basis. The Government will welcome bids from charities, the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, her suggestion is worthy businesses, social enterprises and local organisations. of further consideration and I shall consider it. If it In that way, we can build a stronger link between the answers the key point, which is that the person should activities of the Crown Estate, particularly in coastal have knowledge of Scotland and should not be restricted communities, including those that are affected by such in terms of their qualifications—the broad totality of activities. It is a very positive step, which recognises what is required for the board should be a factor in the role of the Crown Estate. that person’s appointment, but the person might also I have indicated that I will certainly give further have a special responsibility for Scotland or particular consideration to nomenclature and thank the noble interests there—then that might well address the need Lady for her helpful suggestion. However, I have also without being unduly restrictive or indeed giving a indicated that there is a distinction between the misleading description of what that person’s role would constitution of the Crown Estate on the one hand and be. I thank the noble Lady for that suggestion, to that of the BBC Trust on another. The latter has a which I will most certainly give consideration. specific requirement to serve specific parts of the Because of that wider responsibility, it is important United Kingdom, which is why not only the nomenclature that the appointment of all commissioners should be but the mode of appointment is different. On that made by the sponsoring Minister, in this case the basis, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. Chancellor of the Exchequer. I reassure noble Lords that he will make a recommendation for the appointment of this particular commissioner only after consulting Lord Browne of Ladyton: I am very grateful to all Scottish Ministers and listening carefully to what they noble Lords who have taken part in what proved to be say. That appropriately balances the need for both a a much more interesting debate than I expected. I Scottish interest and a UK-wide perspective on the made clear in my introductory remarks that these are appointment process. probing amendments, which implied that I had no intention of dividing the House. Having listened to the There is particular concern over why there has been argument, I am severely tempted to do so because it different process for that appointment from that for may turn out to be the high point of my career in the the Scottish member of the BBC Trust. The BBC House of Lords but I will resist the temptation. Trust has a different constitution from the Crown Estate. Under its charter, the BBC has obligations to I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of broadcast to all parts of the United Kingdom and to Drumlean, who immediately got the point that have a member of its trust for each of the nations that underpinned the argument about nomenclature. However, make up the United Kingdom. That is very distinct I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace from the position of the Crown Estate, which has no of Tankerness: I always thought that the adjective such requirements. Indeed, as I indicated a moment qualified the “Crown Estate” commissioner, rather ago, it does not even have to have a presence in any than “Crown”, which is exactly what led to the confusion particular part of the United Kingdom. that has been apparent in the debate. I have to say that The appointment of all Crown Estate commissioners I am far from totally persuaded that, is by Her Majesty on the recommendation of the “Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland”, Chancellor, reflecting the UK-wide responsibility of bears the narrow interpretation or function that the every commissioner. The UK Government will still noble and learned Lord has attributed to it. Try as I need to discuss the Scottish appointments of both might to apply that argument consistently to many organisations with Scottish Ministers to ensure that other titles, at least one of which I have held as a the best people to represent Scottish interests are former Secretary of State for Scotland, it did not seem appointed. to me to stand the test of that destructive analysis. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked about the However, I am pleased that the noble and learned status of the Crown Estate in the Bill. It is certainly Lord has, on behalf of the Government, indicated the Government’s intention to consider the report of that he is prepared to take away the issue of nomenclature the Scottish Affairs Committee alongside the request and think about it. There needs to be clarity of language that was made by the Scottish Government for further in the politics of Scotland. We may sometimes misinterpret 1195 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1196 and play with words for the purposes of debate but amendment is accepted in principle, it would mean people in Scotland use these words very carefully. I that the regulation-making power would be subject to have learnt in my political career that where there are the principles of openness and transparency.Consultations strong divisions of opinion—for example, in Northern in this case are important in view of the importance of Ireland—vocabulary and phraseology matter to people the subject and the new breakthroughs in research and are used in particular ways. Therefore, I am grateful that are occurring all the time. Further, circumstances to the noble and learned Lord for agreeing to take this can differ widely from one area to another and issue away. consultations would mean that the Government would I am persuaded by the noble and learned Lord’s pick up whatever special circumstances existed in different explanation of the reason for the different phraseology areas. as regards the process of identification, selection and I hope the Minister in his wisdom will feel able to appointment. I was not aware of that difference and look favourably on this matter and that he will stress had not uncovered it in my researches. I am grateful to the importance of good practice and best practice. all noble Lords, and particularly to the noble Lord, I beg to move. Lord Selkirk of Douglas, for tabling an amendment, the style of which may have been influenced by one of Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I hope my noble and my colleagues. That was helpful as it gave the noble learned friend will agree that it would always be and learned Lord the opportunity to put on the record appropriate in these circumstances to consult NICE. information about the appointments process which will benefit that process and the openness of government. This has been a worthwhile debate. As usual with 4pm this Bill, issues which are apparently comparatively Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I speak only straightforward turn out to be interesting and educational. because of my support for a previous amendment that I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. was withdrawn, and I shall explain that position. As the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk of Douglas, explained, Amendment 44B withdrawn. the effect of the amendment is to impose upon the Home Secretary an obligation to consult, Amendment 45 “with such persons as he or she considers appropriate”— I suppose in this case it is “she”—when making regulations Tabled by Lord Selkirk of Douglas under Section 10 of the Misuse of Drugs Act but, 45: Clause 22, page 15, line 9, leave out from “who” to end of peculiarly, only when such regulations apply to Scotland. line 11 and insert— At first, I was attracted to the idea of a statutory “(a) is qualified in land management or the law of Scotland; requirement to consult. I was so attracted that I and and my noble and learned friend sought to move a (b) has experience of the functions of the Commissioners.” complementary amendment imposing a similar obligation on Scottish Ministers in the exercise of the new powers Lord Selkirk of Douglas: In view of the reassurances relating to licensing that they will enjoy when the Bill given by my noble and learned friend, I shall not move in enacted. However, after more detailed research, I the amendment. have come to the conclusion that the imposition of such an obligation is not necessary in either case, Amendment 45 not moved. which is why I have withdrawn from the Marshalled List the amendment that stood in my name and that of Amendments 45A and 45B not moved. my noble friends. I will not detain the House further, but the reason Clause 22 agreed. for that is because my research has revealed an extensive commitment to consultation by the UK and Scottish Governments and the Scottish Parliament that it would Clause 23 : Misuse of drugs appear has been rigorously observed over a long period. As noble Lords would probably agree, whether voluntarily Amendment 46 or by practice that does not require regulation or legislation, good practice can be developed and it is Moved by Lord Selkirk of Douglas best left that way. That is my view but I shall leave the 46: Clause 23, page 15, line 28, at end insert— noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, to explain the detail. “( ) Regulations applying in Scotland may only be made if the Secretary of State has consulted with such persons as he or she considers appropriate.” Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, Clause 23 gives Scottish Ministers the power to license Scottish Lord Selkirk of Douglas: My Lords, I wish to speak doctors to prescribe three controlled drugs—cocaine, to this amendment briefly as it is a probing amendment. diamorphine and dipipanone—for the treatment of It would ensure that the Secretary of State must addiction. The Calman commission recommended that consult on regulations made under Section 10 of the responsibility for the licensing of controlled substances Misuse of Drugs Act. The reason for this is that the used in the treatment of addiction should be devolved drugs concerned are controlled drugs and licensing to Scottish Ministers as part of their responsibility for provision should have proper consultations. If the health and well-being. The UK Government consider 1197 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1198

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] Clause 24: Power to prescribe drink-driving limits that Scottish Ministers are best placed to consider the particular circumstances in Scotland when deciding which doctors should have the authority to prescribe Amendment 47 or administer the three controlled drugs used in the Moved by The Duke of Montrose treatment of addiction. That relatively narrow devolution is set out in Clause 23. 47: Clause 24, page 17, line 6, at end insert— “( ) Section 89 of the Road Transport Act 1988 (tests of I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Selkirk for competence to drive) is amended as follows. his interest in this clause. As I have indicated, the ( ) After subsection (3) insert— Government certainly want to ensure that the Scottish “(3A) The Secretary of State shall ensure that tests under this Government have the necessary powers and abilities section reflect the content of regulations relating to drink driving to tackle drug misuse effectively. That is why we have limits made by Scottish Ministers under section 9(3) or 11(2).”” introduced Clause 23. However, it is perhaps important to indicate that while Scottish Ministers can consider the particular circumstances in Scotland when deciding The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, in moving which doctors based in Scotland should assume the Amendment 47, I shall speak also to Amendment 50 responsibility to prescribe or administer specific drugs, in this group. We are dealing here with two further they do so pursuant to regulations made under the areas in which the Calman commission has taken up Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 by the Secretary of State—the the wishes of the Scottish Executive to exercise more Home Secretary. power: the setting of drink-driving limits and the setting of speed limits. Amendment 47 amends the My noble friend’s amendment would require the Road Transport Act 1988 and would provide for Secretary of State to consult the appropriate persons regulations made by Scottish Ministers on drink-driving before such regulations were made. The power to limits to be referred to in the regulations made by the make regulations and the responsibility for the form Secretary of State with regard to the driving test—which, of those regulations is reserved to the Secretary of presumably, should still be the same across the United State. The Secretary of State is already required by Kingdom. The amendment was suggested by the Scottish statute to consult the Advisory Council on the Misuse Law Society, among others, and is more or less a of Drugs before making regulations made under the tidying-up exercise. 1971 Act. As a matter of good practice, the Secretary of State will consult key partners, and often the public, I notice that some of the other amendments have before implementing changes to regulations made under been tabled by noble and learned Lords opposite, and the 1971 Act. The Home Office has recently completed I feel slightly in awe of such learned names as appear a three-month public consultation on proposed changes attached to them. My amendments are directed solely to, and the consolidation of, the Misuse of Drugs at the Road Transport Act. It is interesting that none Regulations 2001. I am afraid that I cannot tell my of those noble and learned Lords has objected to the noble friend Lord Maclennan whether NICE was devolution of powers on drink-driving, but some of consulted but, as I can ascertain, that would seem to the amendments in the group concern the devolution be one of the bodies that might have been consulted. of speeding. It will be interesting to see what is brought In the context of the consultation, officials from the up on that front. Of course, any variation will immediately department met their counterparts from the Scottish bring complications for both learner drivers and visitors. Government to discuss the proposals. The reason for my amendment is that any regulations made by Scottish Ministers with regard to drink-driving The Bill is devolving the licensing function to limits should be made known to any person submitting Scottish Ministers, and they will consult whoever they himself to a test of competence to drive. think appropriate while exercising that function to license doctors in Scotland. The making of the regulations Amendment 50 would provide that any regulations remains reserved to the United Kingdom and the made by Scottish Ministers with regard to traffic Home Secretary and I respectfully ask my noble regulation on special roads, general provisions as to friend to withdraw his amendment. I am sure that this traffic signs and temporary speed limits would appear point will have been noted by others, not just in the in the driving test in a similar way to the issues I raised UK Government but by Ministers in the Scottish under my previous amendment. Government. Section 38(2) of the Road Traffic Act, which lays down the provisions affecting the Highway Code, gives the Secretary of State sufficient powers on his own to Lord Selkirk of Douglas: I thank my noble and carry out the changes proposed in the amendments learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness very much tabled by the Opposition Front Bench. I should not for his reassurances and I beg leave to withdraw the have thought that all those details about the Highway amendment. Code need to be in the Bill. I have received a briefing that may have emanated from my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench which seems rather to agree Amendment 46 withdrawn. with that; he may have a similar view, and I look forward to hearing what that is. I beg to move. Amendment 46A had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I think it is in order for me to speak to Amendment 48, which is in Clause 23 agreed. this group, at this stage. 1199 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1200

First, I must comment on the amendment moved were changed for motor cars, so we would have two by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose. There is sets of road signs. This is good news if you make road much talk in Scotland about so-called devo-max, which signs, but very bad news for the taxpayer. those talking about it find it almost impossible to My guess is that what has happened here is a typical define. This seems to me to be pretty close to devo-max. intergovernmental dispute. I suspect that the Department I cannot for the life of me see why we need to have for Transport is digging in its heels to maintain control different speed limits or different rules relating to over HGVs and the Scotland Office is saying, “Well, drink-driving between Scotland and England. That we’ve made this promise in Calman, so we’ll just leave will create particular problems for people who live on it in the Bill and hope no one notices”. Amendment 48 the border and are driving on roads which do not establishes a principle which I am sure my noble follow the geographical border. This seems to me to be and learned friend can happily accept because it absolutely devo-max and devo-plus. These proposals certainly covers common sense, and I have pleasure in have come about because all the parties got together in proposing it. the Calman commission to try to prevent the nationalists winning a majority in the Scottish elections and thought about everything but the kitchen sink that they could The Duke of Montrose: I do not disagree with my throw into the Bill—which, as usual with legislation noble friend Lord Forsyth, but is it not true that the these days, was not given great scrutiny in the House speed limit for HGVs is already low enough for the of Commons. Here we are in the Lords, looking at this Scottish Executive not to wish to interfere with it? Is stuff now. The Highway Code and the rules for driving not their argument with private vehicles, which have a motor cars are complicated enough without there very much higher speed limit at the moment? being different rules for different parts of the United Kingdom, which is just plain silly. However, it is in the Bill and the Government appear to be committed to it, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I do not have a clue, but so we have to deal with it as it is. whatever they think, Governments, as I well know, come and go, as do Ministers and Administrations. Having said that, I am extremely grateful that the We are talking about the making of the law here and Calman commission, on which a number of my noble there should be consistency. It seems to me that when friends served, did not in its enthusiasm decide that you are driving from London to Glasgow, the amount it should give the Scottish Parliament the right to you are allowed to drink, what you are allowed to do decide which side of the road we should drive on—I in terms of the speed limit in a built-up area and what do not know whether it was suggested; perhaps my you are allowed to do on motorways and dual noble friend Lord Selkirk of Douglas might be able carriageways should be the same as they were when I to advise me on that. I make that point not just learnt the Highway Code. The Highway Code should flippantly, because it is evident that the Bill as drafted be clear to everybody and mucking about with it in gives the Scottish Parliament the power to decide the this way is just plain daft. None the less, that is what speed limit for motor cars but not that for HGV we are doing. However, if you are going to give the lorries. Had it been able to decide which side of the Scottish Parliament the power to decide on a different road to drive on, it could have been disastrous, because speed limit, it seems a bit odd that it should apply not we would have had cars driving on one side and HGV just to motorcars but to all classes of vehicles. That is lorries on the other, and we would have had a head-on a very simple point. collision. I cannot for the life of me imagine why a Bill, which 4.15 pm has been before Parliament now for nearly two years, has been through all its stages and been discussed by With regard to my second amendment, Amendment 49, the Scottish Parliament, contains an anomaly whereby and taking the point of my noble friend the Duke of it makes provision for setting the speed limits for cars Montrose, if the speed limit is set at 10 miles per hour but not for HGVs. To give credit where credit is due, in a built-up area and I get done for speeding because I the parliamentary committee which looked at the Bill was doing 13 miles per hour, should I receive the same in the Scottish Parliament identified that anomaly. It kind of penalty as I would if I were driving at 40 miles is absurd that, at a time of great austerity and when per hour with a speed limit of 30 miles per hour? In local government has had its source of revenue through the same way, if the amount you are allowed to drink council tax frozen, we have a proposal that all road is reduced to zero and you have half a glass of wine signs and speed limits should be able to be changed in and fail the breath test, should that carry the same Scotland but only in so far as they relate to motor cars penalty as applies in England? That is what the Bill but not HGVs. provides. It is a nonsense. I received a briefing for this Bill from the Whips’ Office whose contents I suppose I am not allowed to Lord Maxton: The noble Lord has made a very reveal because they are secret. It indicated that if I interesting point. Of course, if his second point about were to press the amendment my colleagues should drink-driving is true, the penalty if you are done for resist it because, if we included HGVs as well as motor drink-driving having had half a glass of wine is losing cars in the Bill, it would result in the road signs having your licence. Therefore, if you have the half glass of to be changed. We would be in the absurd position wine in Scotland and your licence is taken off you in where we would have to have road signs that related to Scotland, does that mean that you cannot drive at all the UK regulations for HGVs and road signs which in England? 1201 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1202

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I guess it does, and that north of the border. The moral of the story, of course, is another absurdity but this is what happens when, for is that one should not drink and drive; but the fact of political reasons, politicians start mucking around the matter is that we should keep it simple for motorists with the powers that relate to Parliaments. The end and it is a very confusing issue. result is confusion where there should be clarity, and However, that was my initial reaction and I have clarity is very important in this area. If there is a case come round to thinking more positively about the for reducing the speed limit—I think that there is a potential differences north and south of the border. In case for doing so in built-up areas and for increasing it so doing, I decided to look at the Irish experience—that on motorways—it should be done in the United Kingdom is, the differences in road laws north and south of the as a whole. In all the time that I served as a Scottish border. Again, it is a seamless border. There are, first Member of Parliament in the other place, nobody ever of all, broadly similar speed limits, the major difference came to me and argued the case for having a different being that there are kilometres in the south and miles speed limit in Scotland. People would argue about the in the north. The implications for that are that drivers regulations that related to where 30 mph speed limits have actually got used to the changes and highway would be but there was no suggestion that there should codes have been changed without too much bother. be differences. The main thing is that rental companies have had to Because I am very constructive when it comes to be aware of the changes and have had to, over time, the Scotland Bill, as my noble and learned friend issue new guidelines. Some of their cars have dual knows, I am very happy to accept that a decision has kilometres/miles per hour on their speedometers. been taken on this. However, if you are going to make When it comes to the breathalyser tests, there are changes to the law and to the ability to change the law differences between the Republic and Northern Ireland. in respect of speeding, drink-driving and so on, the At present, Northern Ireland is the same as the rest penalties should match the crime, and we are not of the UK, which has a limit of 80 milligrams per providing for the Scottish Parliament to be able to 100 millilitres of blood: beyond that, you get caught. produce the whole package. In short, this is a bit of a In October 2011, the Republic’s threshold was lowered muddle. I look forward to my noble and learned to 50 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood. In Northern friend’s answer and to hearing a commitment that he Ireland, there is now talk of changing to the Republic’s will sort out the muddle in the way that this House is levels. It is no bad thing, therefore, if Scotland also very good at doing. goes down this route, given devolved powers. Why is this? It is because in Scotland, the road Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, my name is casualty rates, some of which inevitably result from added to Amendments 47 and 50. However, I should drink-driving, are 34 per cent higher per head of like to focus my thoughts in general on all the amendments population—both for fatalities and for serious injuries. in this group, which specifically, following my noble We should bear this in mind. The Royal Society for the friend the Duke of Montrose, covers the devolvement Prevention of Accidents fully supports a reduction in of drink-driving test thresholds to Scottish Ministers breath test limits. It says this is a chance for greater and the decision on speed limits north of the border. financial benefits for the nation as well as benefits in Within the Bill I am broadly supportive of passing health and well-being. decision-making to Scottish Ministers on major issues such as raising taxes. However—and this is where I Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am most grateful to agree with my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean my noble friend, but is he not making an argument for —my initial reaction to the proposals for potentially the whole of the United Kingdom? Is not the difference different speed limits and alternative breath-test thresholds in statistics between Scotland and England, which he on either side of the Scottish border was that they has highlighted, an argument about enforcement rather were petty, insignificant and unnecessary. Above all, than the level of the limit? I felt that any such change north of the border must surely be change for change’s sake, with the Scots just wishing to be different and having an implicit mistrust Viscount Younger of Leckie: I take my noble friend’s of the English authorities to set correct limits for point, which is a good one that should be discussed. It both. brings up the point about discussions going on north I regard us as being one nation for these purposes. and south of the border concerning that issue. One In case we had not noticed, there is a seamless border point to make is that a recent survey highlighted the between Scotland and England, so any change would fact that 79 per cent of Scots were in favour of lowering necessarily mean increased bureaucracy, together with, the limit. as has already been mentioned, changes in the Highway Finally, as has been mentioned, if Scottish Ministers Code, and, in particular, signpost changes everywhere did decide to change either speed limits or breath test along the border from Gretna to Coldstream and levels north of the border, there need to be certain beyond, leading to increased costs. Above all, it would safeguards in place. For example, if an English driver be confusing for the motorist. It has already been commits a serious offence in Scotland, it is imperative pointed out that if, for example, someone driving that a disqualification remains in place when he returns north is stopped south of Carlisle and breathalysed, home. There is form on this. In 1998, for example, and is then let off because of the limit in England, and there was an agreement of co-operation between he then unfortunately gets caught again when he is the Republic of Ireland and 13 member states of the stopped at Beattock Summit, he could be over the European Union over disqualification. I understand limit there—assuming there is a lower breath test limit that there is also an agreement between Northern 1203 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1204

Ireland and Great Britain over such recognition. I amendment ought to be supported? It goes with the think, on balance, that devolution of powers to Scottish European drift, which I thought my noble friend was Ministers on road safety matters is positive only if—as very keen on. seems possible—there are safer roads. The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, one of the countries Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I just want was not in the EU. to raise one little matter about the drafting of Amendments 48 and 49 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby: My Lords, three amendments Lord Forsyth. Surely it would be better if the provisions in this group—Amendment 47A, 47B and 50A—are in to set penalties for drink-driving and for random my name and those of my noble friends. I do not intend breath-testing were put in Clause 24, which concerns to speak to, or in due course move, Amendment 47B. drink-driving, rather than in Clause 25, which concerns Before I get to the meat of the amendments, perhaps speeding. I could make a general point about the Bill and the proposals from the Calman commission. The noble Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, where I disagree Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, said—I hope that I with my noble friend Lord Forsyth is in our attitude do not misquote him—that this was dreamed up by a to devolution as a whole. I would sign up for what is group of politicians who got together to try to prevent called “devo-plus”. I define that as meaning the greatest an SNP victory. Perhaps I was slightly naive at the amount of devolution consistent with common sense. time, but I did not think that that was my task as a When we come to debate financial issues I will say member of the Calman commission. I am looking at more about that, in the light of Prime Minister Cameron’s two of my fellow commissioners across the Chamber recent utterances in Scotland. Given that we are likely and I do not think that it was in their remit, either. to come back to the issue in future legislation, if we In relation to road traffic, we received and assessed take a definition of “consistent with common sense”, evidence. I have just had a quick look at it. Much of it I say with great respect to my colleagues who served was received from the Association of Chief Police on the Calman commission that I am not certain that Officers in Scotland. It is true that we commented that different categories of air guns, different drink-driving it was unfortunate that we did not receive evidence limits or different speed limits are consistent with common from major motoring organisations representing a sense, and we would do better to remove them altogether. Great Britain-wide viewpoint. We took that into account My noble friend referred to those who live on the when we reached the view that we did in relation to border. When I was first elected to the Commons, my both drink-driving and speed limits. constituency boundary was the English/Scottish border. My nearest railway station is across the border. When 4.30 pm I come to your Lordships’ House by train, which I do At the moment, enforcement of the drink-driving from time to time, I have to travel across the border. limit is effectively devolved. The noble Lord, Lord Let us suppose, although it is unlikely, that the Scottish Forsyth, made an important point in relation to Government decided to keep the drink-driving limit enforcement, when he intervened during the speech of higher than it is in England, and let us suppose that I the noble Viscount, Lord Younger. Of course, as Lord repaired to that excellent institution, the Cross Keys Advocate I was very close to enforcement issues. I Inn in Ettrickbridge, before setting out on my journey. personally did not consider that there was any weakness I could then find myself within the law for the first in the enforcement regime, at either police or prosecution part of my journey and then fall foul of the law for the level. That is not to say that we were ever complacent second part. A much more likely scenario would be about it, and there were consistent attempts to ensure that I met my noble friend Lord Forsyth on the train that enforcement was rigorous—and yet we still see a going north and we had a meal and a convivial glass of higher fatality rate in Scotland. wine. I could then be perfectly legal on leaving the We received evidence from ACPOS, which told us station and suddenly illegal as I neared my home. This that there was, is not consistent with common sense. When we come “a need for a Scotland-only solution to drink driving but that this to a future Scotland Bill, I hope that we might drop need not necessarily mean devolution of powers”, these issues and deal with more substantial devolution and it was certainly keen on a “Scotland-only solution”. questions that are of greater interest to the Scottish When we came to view the issue, we were of course people. aware that the Scottish Parliament had responsibility for it in relation to criminal law. The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, as I listened to In relation to speed limits, there is already a considerable the debate I wondered whether my noble friends had degree of flexibility for local variation in Scotland, driven through Europe. The exact problems they explained with local authorities having powers to set their own to the House are those that one gets in Europe. Last limits. Of course, I appreciate—and the noble Lord week I drove through three countries in about an hour will no doubt say—that this does not affect the national and a half. In each of them there was a different speed speed limits on country roads and so on. That is limit. This was well signposted at the side of the road undoubtedly true. In relation to the point made by the and I did not cause immense problems. noble Lord, Lord Steel, about whether it is right to have differences and that people who live in border Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Is there not a proposal areas might find it particularly difficult, judgments for harmonisation of speed limits and other matters in have to be made as to where the balance lies and the European Union for precisely the reasons that the people can disagree over those judgments. 1205 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1206

[LORD BOYD OF DUNCANSBY] A number of issues are raised by these amendments I can quite understand that from the point of view as a whole. The first is one of road safety. That has of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who has represented a already been raised in the amendment in the name of border constituency and still lives in that area and is the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, and the noble aware of these issues, that would be a much more Viscount, Lord Younger. It was also raised in the important factor than for someone who lives at the amendments that we have put down. There are two other end of the country such as the noble Lord, Lord particular issues here. One relates to the Highway Maclennan of Rogart. The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, Code, the other to the driving test. who is not in his place any more, made an important Paragraph 95 of the Highway Code says: point about the fact that people have experience of driving through different countries on the continent, “You MUST NOT drive with a breath alcohol level higher and the contribution of the noble Viscount, Lord than 35 microgrammes/100 millilitres of breath or a blood alcohol level of more than 80 milligrammes/100 millilitres of blood”. Younger, in relation to Ireland was also very significant. It then tells you why you should not do that; alcohol Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I cannot think of an will give, example—perhaps my noble friend Lord Steel could “a false sense of confidence … reduce co-ordination and slow help me—but there are roads in the Borders which go down reactions … affect judgement of speed, distance and risk”. in and out of Scotland and England as you drive Paragraph 124 and the accompanying table in the along them. If there were differences in the drink-driving Highway Code reflect the speed limits, and say: limits or the speed limits, would we have signs every 100 yards saying “Now it is 30” or “Now it is 20”, or “You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the would we have policemen sitting in a lay-by in England road and for your vehicle”. or Scotland, depending on which had the higher limit, It is of course clear that if Scottish Ministers exercise and would we have great arguments in the courts as to their powers under the Bill, and vary the limits in which part of the road you were on? either case, that will have a knock-on consequence for My noble friend Lord Caithness, who has now left, the Highway Code and for the driving test. It is important talked about driving across Europe. We are not talking to ensure that people are sufficiently aware of the about driving across Europe; we are talking about differences where they exist. It is important that we do country roads in the Borders. What is the utility that is not have some kind of Scottish edition of the Highway being achieved here? The arguments that the noble Code that reflects only the Scottish position but have Lord is making, with which I have some sympathy, are instead a code that is still a United Kingdom code but arguments about what the limits and rules should be; that reflects differences in these limits where they exist. they are not actually arguments for it being different On the speed limit, for example, the accompanying in different parts of the United Kingdom. table could be quite simply amended to show these differences where they exist. Lord Boyd of Duncansby: I am not familiar enough The Calman commission obviously missed a trick with the borders to say to what extent roads come in when we decided not to give the power to the Scottish and out of Scotland and England. The picture the Parliament to change the side on which the traffic noble Lord seems to be painting is that every 100 yards moves. Driving on the left seemed to us to remain it meanders over the border. Of course, I am aware important. that a river forms at least part of the border. I actually thought that there were more significant difficulties The other issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord with Northern Ireland and the Republic. I remember Forsyth, was HGVs. The Calman commission did not reading stories about people having part of their house distinguish between different types of motor vehicles. in the Republic and the other part in Northern Ireland. I am unclear why that distinction is there and why Of course, you would not drive through a house. it remains, and I certainly look forward to a good Nevertheless, roads probably do meander more over explanation, shall we say, from the noble Lord, of why there than they do between Scotland and England. I that should be. It really does not make sense to have take the noble Lord’s point; clearly there may be times that kind of distinction. He may say that long-distance when there are issues with that. I should think that truck drivers are used to driving over the border, but there will be a common-sense approach between police that raises the question as to why we are devolving it at forces on both sides of the border, as there already is all. In fact, these very people are more likely to be in relation to jurisdictional difficulties, wherever they aware of the differences where they exist. Therefore, if might arise. he were to advance that argument, it would not be an argument that I would accept. Lord Sanderson of Bowden: I may be able to help The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, also raised an important the noble and learned Lord. The road that I use to go issue about penalties. The Calman commission simply to Berwick—and no doubt the noble Lord, Lord looked at the offences and the limits on the blood Steel, does the same—goes through a small village in alcohol and breath alcohol levels and the speed limit. Scotland, in which the speed limit is 40 mph. When I do not think that we mentioned penalties. However, you go into England, it is 30 mph. I happened to get there is an important point here. A reduction in the caught going at 35 mph in the village of Wark, so there limit is more important when one talks about the are differences at the moment on these roads. alcohol limit. For example, there has been talk of a reduction to zero. If that happens, the penalty would Lord Boyd of Duncansby: I am obliged to the noble be an automatic 12-month ban. Even someone with Lord for that information. a minute level of alcohol would be subject to that 1207 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1208 automatic 12-month ban unless the Scottish Parliament Lord Maxton: There is another problem, if we take had the power to vary not just the alcohol level but the the example of the noble Lord, Lord Steel. If the penalty. noble Lord has a decent meal in the evening with a few While this Bill devolves responsibility to the Scottish drinks, and gets up the following morning and drives Ministers to set the blood alcohol level, that devolution his car, he may then be stopped because increasingly, might be constrained. Ministers might take the view particularly in holiday periods, the police are stopping that, while they are in favour of a reduction in the drivers early in the morning and breathalysing them. blood alcohol level, the penalties that would necessarily Of course, people are not aware of the dispersal rate be imposed because they did not have the power to of alcohol in their bodies. vary the penalty would mean that the penalty would be disproportionate. Lord Boyd of Duncansby: The Highway Code is Perhaps there is an issue about the ability to amend quite explicit: you should be aware of the amount you primary legislation, but this is a very real issue that the have drunk the night before. I had people around for Minister has to take away and look at seriously.Otherwise, a meal recently. They were not driving, but when I we would not properly devolve this matter at all and offered them another drink, they said that they could would be giving only one part of a solution to the not take it because they would be driving the following Scottish Ministers. I hope that the Minister will reflect morning. That is sufficient for me. With respect, I get on that issue as well as on HGVs, and I look forward the impression that people are more and more aware to hearing from him. of both the drink-driving limits nationally and the necessity of ensuring that they do not drink in the Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, perhaps the evening if they are going to be driving the next day. noble and learned Lord would explain to me what considerations he has in mind that justify the ability to Lord Lyell: The noble and learned Lord is making set different blood alcohol levels north and south of one point. We have heard a great deal about the limits the border. It seems to me that the people who live and the penalties. My noble friend Lord Caithness was north and south of the border do not have greater driving in Europe and went through three countries. sensitivities to these things. The purpose of the law is In many countries across the Channel, the limit may not to deal with the problem after the event but to be 50 milligrams or thereabouts, but often the penalty prevent people driving with too much alcohol. The is either what I would call a light rap over the knuckles commonality of the law north and south of the border or three months. But if the level is 80 or 100 milligrams, makes it clear to drivers what is acceptable. I cannot which is what we have, quite often it will be one year or think that before they set off to cross the border, even more. Ever since, I think, 1967, the level has been people are going to check precisely what milligram 80 milligrams and 12 months. If we are going to have limits are acceptable on one side or the other. If there lower limits as there are in some Scandinavian is any doubt about the limits of susceptibility, that countries—in Finland, but not Sweden or Norway so ought to be discussed by doctors across the United farasIamaware,itiszero;Idonotknowwhatthe Kingdom before the law is changed. penalties are, whether they fluctuate or vary—would my noble and learned friend the Minister put that into 4.45 pm the frame when he comes to respond to this? Lord Lyell: My Lords— Lord Sewel: I do not think the real issue in respect of penalties is about proportionality but to do with Lord Boyd of Duncansby: Perhaps I could first the type of case we have heard about from the noble respond to the noble Lord’s intervention. I have to say Lord, Lord Steel, and my noble friend Lord Maxton, with the greatest respect that I do not accept the of the person living one side of the border who finds proposition he is putting. In the first place, the number himself on the other side and commits what is an of cross-border journeys that are taken in relation to offence on that side but not on the other side. The the entire number of journeys made in the UK is imposition of the penalty then affects him where he is minuscule. Typically, people are caught drink driving resident—he would lose his licence for the whole of over very short distances because they are driving the United Kingdom although he has committed no home either from the pub or after having gone out for crime in England. That sort of situation will not enjoy a meal. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, is not in his place, public confidence. but let us say he goes from Ettrick over the border to catch his train, having enjoyed a good meal. Before he catches his train, he gets caught because over the Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: As the debate continues, border there is a different limit. it seems we are missing something. If I think back to my days in the law, we had a book called Road Traffic Offences, which dealt with the whole substance of Lord Maxton: My Lords, will my noble and learned road traffic law, which included regulations in respect friend give way? of licensing and also of course the issue of penalties. Here, we are, in part, trying to add on to a United Lord Boyd of Duncansby: I will in a moment. The Kingdom Act—the Road Traffic Act 1988 in one case, answer is that you should know what the limit is before and the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 in another— you set out on your journey, and that should be the little bits that will apply only to Scotland and which case for everyone. devolve power to make certain changes in the whole 1209 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1210

[LORD CAMERON OF LOCHBROOM] with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of structure of road traffic law in that way. As an individual Duncansby, his analysis of how the Calman commission who has to obey the law, I would find it very difficult went about its work. My noble friend the Duke of to find where to go to in order to understand what my Montrose suggested that we were trying to deliver obligations are in driving. Leaving aside the issue what the Scottish Executive wanted us to. If only the about licensing and the like raised by the noble Lord, Scottish Executive had made any connection with the Lord Sewel, the United Kingdom licence is a licence to Calman commission—they studiously did not give us drive anywhere—yet we are asking individuals throughout any evidence or indication of what they wished—their the United Kingdom to have regard to regulations engagement might have been productive. made by two separate bodies, each with their own As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, indicated, responsibilities, which are giving rise to a whole series this was done on the basis of evidence. It was recognised of different and very difficult questions that have by the commission that there are already different already been brought to mind in this debate. I wonder speed limits; there are already powers to set speed whether— limits on local authority roads devolved to local highway authorities through road traffic regulation orders. They Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: Before the noble and are free to use their knowledge and assessment of learned Lord leaves that point about two different local roads and may set different speed limits of 20, jurisdictions, can he perhaps clear up for me the 30, 40, 50 or 60 miles per hour where they think it difference in relation to corroboration between Scotland appropriate. and England? As I understand it, at the moment, There was a view on drink-driving that it was part because we have UK traffic legislation, only one policeman of criminal law, which is already devolved—but perhaps is required to provide evidence in an arrest. However, more importantly there are serious alcohol abuse issues were Scottish legislation to apply and there was a in Scotland. I do not think that anyone is running different alcohol or speed limit, would that be subject away from them. The view was that this might be one to a different form of corroboration, since it came other measure that could be part of how alcohol abuse from Scots law rather than UK law? could be tackled in Scotland. Before we get on to some of the more specific issues Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: The noble Lord raises on speeding and drink-driving, I shall take up the an interesting point. I would not wish to give any important points that have been raised by my noble definitive opinion as it is a long time since I have had friends the Duke of Montrose and Lord Younger as to deal with these matters. The noble and learned well as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, on the Lord, Lord Boyd, is probably better able to do so, as highway code and the driving test. The amendments he has a more modern understanding of road traffic to which they spoke seek to ensure that provisions of law as a recent Lord Advocate in Scotland. However, the highway code reflect the content of regulations these questions arise over a whole series of issues made by the Scottish Ministers on speed limits and the apart from road traffic. We are getting into an area drink-drive limit under the powers devolved to them where I wonder whether the kind of devolving of in the Bill, assuming that those powers are actually powers that is being sought here is in fact creating used and changes made. more problems that it would do if the whole issue of I fully agree that the highway code should reflect road traffic legislation—instead of being under the any changes made as a result of the powers being Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 or the Road Traffic devolved, but it is important to note that there is no Act 1988—were left as a separate Act that applies other legislation on the content of the code, either in within the jurisdiction of the Scottish Parliament. the Road Traffic Act 1930 or in the supplementary That would be much clearer for members of the United provisions in Section 38 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Kingdom. It would be disproportionate if the only specific statutory requirement on the content of the code were the few Lord Boyd of Duncansby: The noble and learned provisions in the Scotland Bill when there is no other Lord threw me that one and I will just take it up. It is such requirement to include any specific items of true that there are a whole range of United Kingdom English, Scottish or Great Britain legislation. The statutes that nevertheless require different evidential code provides guidance, but it is not a comprehensive standards on both sides of the border. There is the description of all road traffic legislation. However, I Misuse of Drugs Act, for example, where corroboration assure my noble friends that the mechanism exists to would be required in relation to those offences that ensure that the highway code is accurately and adequately were prosecuted in Scotland but not—I think I am updated. It was referred to by my noble friend the right in saying—in England and Wales. The same, of Duke of Montrose that Section 38(2) of the 1988 Act course, is true of the Road Traffic Act. If I may say so, gives the Secretary of State the power from time to that possibly just reinforces the point that different time to revise the code by revoking, varying, amending jurisdictions will have different rules of evidence and or adding to the provisions in the code in such manner in theory, or at least in principle, there is nothing to as he or she thinks fit. stop them having different penalties and limits for Section 38(3) places the Secretary of State under a particular offences. duty to lay proposed alterations to the code, other than those that are merely consequential on the passing Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I thank of an amendment or repeal of provisions, before both noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which Houses of Parliament at least 40 days before she has given rise to a number of important issues. I share proposes to make the changes. 1211 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1212

Under Section 38(4), if the House resolves that the assessments are already amended to reflect legal changes proposed alteration should not be made, the Secretary with substantial effects on what is covered in the of State must not make the proposed revision to the assessments. I confirm that a change to the national code. Perhaps significantly, Section 38(5) of the 1988 road speed limit or the drink-drive limit, whether it Act states: were across the remainder of Great Britain after the “Before revising the Highway Code … the Secretary of State transfer of power or in Scotland, would be such a must consult with such representative organisations as he thinks change and would be reflected. fit”. That would include the Scottish Government as was Lord Maxton: I have one small question. I take the the case during the last major revision in 2005 to 2007. point about local authorities imposing speed limits as they wish, but motorways of course come under the 5pm Highways Agency. If I am I right, and if there is therefore a variation in a motorway speed limit, as Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am sorry, I am rather there can be—there is, for instance, on the very good confused. Which Secretary of State are we talking new M74 through Glasgow, where a 60 limit goes about here? Is it the Secretary of State for Transport? down to a 50 mile an hour limit—who imposes that? Who is consulted, and who is putting that speed limit Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Yes. on?

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: So the proposition is Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, motorway that the duty lies on the Secretary of State for Transport maintenance, for example, is certainly devolved to the to make amendments to the Highway Code, which Scottish Government. I rather suspect that the motorway may have been made by the Scottish Parliament. speed limit is set under UK legislation. If I am wrong, I will either clarify it before the end of this debate or write to the noble Lord, either to confirm or to clarify. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Yes, it is the Secretary I certainly know that the maintenance of the motorway of State for Transport—I hope that I said “she”—and network is a responsibility of the Scottish Administration. that would be the case. There are regular revisions of the Highway Code. As I might have said or was about The amendment which noble Lords opposite also to say, Scottish Ministers were consulted during the propose would require the Scottish Ministers and the last revision and it is intended that they will continue Secretary of State to jointly make regulations governing to be consulted. the enforcement of the alcohol limit for driving if the limits in Scotland and England differ. It would not be helpful to have two separate editions of the Highway Code. I think I am right in saying that one contributor to the debate strongly urged that we Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Before we leave the should not have a tartan edition of it as well. It was Highway Code, let us say that this legislation has gone the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby. ahead and, for the sake of argument, that the Scottish There should be one edition of the Highway Code,but Parliament has decided to make the speed limit of course it should reflect the differences that are 60 miles an hour rather than 70. If I am a youngster there, and there is indeed a mechanism for doing that. taking my driving test in Hampshire and am asked The Government are therefore of the view that an what the speed limit is on country roads and I say, amendment providing for an update to the Highway “70 miles an hour”, will I pass the test or do I have to Code in the Scotland Bill is unnecessary. say, “It is 70 miles an hour in England and 60 miles an hour in Scotland.”? Listening to him, I do not know Again, with regard to driving tests and the content how my noble and learned friend will answer that of regulations, changes made to speed limits are somewhat question. I would like to think that the answer is that parallel. Section 195 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 you have to give both, but how will that youngster already requires consultation with representative know that and what will the mechanism be by which organisations prior to making regulations relating to this will be communicated? the driving test. This would include the Scottish Government. I understand the point that questions in the driving theory test about speed limits and drink-drive Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I think the answer is limits should reflect any new Scottish limits. As with that the noble Lord would fail the test, because in fact the Highway Code, the driving theory test is regularly it is 60 miles an hour in England. It is 70 miles an hour updated and significant changes to road traffic legislation only on motorways, not on country roads, so with all can be included. Like the Highway Code, currently the due respect he might actually have found that he failed content of the test is not a matter for legislation. To the test regardless of whether the country road is in start adding specific requirements as to what the test Scotland or England, but I take the more general must reflect, which may be subject to change in the point that he was making. future through primary legislation, would be inappropriate. Nevertheless, I accept that important points have Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: What is the answer? been made about driver awareness of any changes across the United Kingdom. To that end, I confirm Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The answer is that it that it is standard practice for the Scottish Government would be in the Highway Code and the question would to be consulted when changes are proposed to the stipulate whether it meant the speed for motorways in driving test. The theory elements of British driving Scotland or in England. These are not insuperable 1213 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1214

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] of what was otherwise a 60 mile an hour limit, but you problems. This reminds me of the days of the Calman observed it, or tried to, and then when you passed the commission when some of these issues were being de-restriction sign you went back up to 60. It did not teased out. I thought that if, prior to the union between actually cause any practical difficulties. You can have Scotland and England, there had been no difference in such a variety of speed limits in local areas and the law on marriage with consent and someone had around schools in built-up areas. The limit could be suggested that in Scotland you could marry without 20 miles an hour, and it does not seem to cause any your parents’ consent at 16, people like the noble difficulties. People see what the speed limit is—there Lord’s ancestors would have stood up and said, “What have to be signs—and they obey it. about Gretna Green? People will be flooding to Gretna Green to get married!”. Well, so they did, and the Lord Sewel: There is a fundamental difference between heavens did not fall in and the union stayed together; comparing the Scotland/England situation with that indeed, it has been very good for tourism in that part of Northern Ireland and the Republic. They are different of the south of Scotland. You can pick up these little states; that is the important issue. I am still concerned points and tease away at them, but they are not going about someone crossing the border committing an to end the union. The union allows for these differences offence on one side that is not an offence on the other if they are thought proper and appropriate. side but losing their licence on a UK basis. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: This is all very amusing, and I take the point that I should have said dual Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I give the carriageways—motorways, rather—with regard to the example of the United States, which is one country speed limit, but amid all that bluster my noble and where there are different speed limits in different states learned friend gave the answer: it would be in the as you cross them. The noble Lord also mentioned Highway Code. How will it get into the Highway Code licences. However, the point is that certain things are if my noble and learned friend does not accept these crimes in Scotland but not necessarily crimes in England. amendments? Are we relying on the Secretary of State Just because you commit and are found guilty of a for Transport finding out what is going on in the crime in Scotland, it is not a defence to say, “Ah, but in Scottish Parliament and communicating that? How England I wouldn’t have committed a crime and, will this be achieved? therefore, wouldn’t have been fined or gone to prison”. You must accept the law in the place where you are. If you go out to drink and drive, you should have regard Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, my noble to what the limits are. For the sake of argument, if the friend is building a mountain out of a molehill. These limit in Scotland was lower and you knew that you matters are not exactly going to be slipped under the would be driving in Scotland, you should have proper carpet. As I have indicated, Scottish Ministers were regard to what the law is there. fully consulted in the most recent consultation on the revision of the Highway Code, and there is no reason As someone who was brought up some eight miles to suggest that that would not happen again. Indeed, from the English border, when I was 18 we certainly there might be even better reasons why that should knew the difference between the licensing hours in happen if these powers are devolved. In the course of Gretna on the Scottish side and Longtown on the these debates my noble friend has put his finger on a English side. In fact, there was a pub much closer, just number of important points, but I sometimes think across the border on the other side of the A74 from that he is trying to make difficulties where in practice Gretna Green. Local people know what the different none would exist. A young person, or indeed an older laws are on both sides of the border. As I say, if you person, who has not passed their driving test has to are drinking and driving you should have proper regard learn the Highway Code to take the theory test, and to what the law is in the country in which you are there are a whole host of questions to learn. Reserved driving. matters change, and that is reflected subsequently in the Highway Code, but people are expected to be Lord Sewel: Is the Minister’s position that if, as in prepared for the test that they are about to sit. the case that I cited, a person drives across the border I pick up my noble friend Lord Steel’s point on and commits a crime in Scotland that is not a crime people crossing borders. My noble friend Lord Caithness in England, it is perfectly understandable that, if the said that he had driven through three countries in situation allowed, he should lose his licence in Scotland Europe where the speed limits changed. I recall driving but not in England, where he has done nothing wrong? through different states in the United States where speed limits changed. It was picked up that we are Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, at the talking not about main roads—the M6 or the M74—but moment you could be in a position in which you gain about country roads that could cross borders. I suspect penalty points, which could cumulatively lead to you that the same applies to boundaries in some other losing your licence, because you have breached a countries as well. There is certainly a boundary between 20 miles per hour speed limit set by a local authority. the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and Just because a local authority in Hampshire would not matters are resolved there, just as when you have local necessarily have designated a 20 miles per hour limit speed limits. for a similar area, that in no way means that the I can think of one particular local speed limit on penalty points that you have accumulated for speeding— the west side of Shetland. I never understood why perhaps outside a school in Lanarkshire—should there was a 40 mile an hour limit there, in the middle somehow be discounted. The point is that if the decision 1215 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1216 made by the Scottish Parliament was that the law further discussions with officials in the Department should reflect the problem of alcohol abuse in Scotland, for Transport as I can see the force of the argument it follows that people are aware of the penalties. that he has presented. I hope on that basis of the reassurance that the matter will be further considered, he will be prepared not to press his amendment. I also The Marquess of Lothian: I have listened carefully hope that my noble friend the Duke of Montrose is to what the Minister has said. He quite rightly said reassured about some of the points that he made and that there are signs to tell you whether the speed limit will be prepared to withdraw his amendment. is 30, 40 or 50 miles per hour. I live in the borders as well and sometimes, to get from one part of the Scottish borders to another, I go through England. Is The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I thank all those he suggesting that there should be signs to tell us what who have participated in the debate. As noble Lords the drink driving limit is on both sides of the border? are aware, we have explored many avenues, although possibly not all, that could be exhausted on this topic. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am suggesting that The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, the noble Marquess, being a responsible citizen and mentioned the main themes that have run through knowing the circumstances, will know that the law is the debate such as road safety and which side of the different in Scotland and England. After all, let us road we drive on. However, it seems to me that if the recall that the Scottish Parliament introduced a ban alcohol driving limit is reduced to zero, using certain on smoking in public places well ahead of other parts brands of cough mixture might get one into trouble. of the United Kingdom, yet there appeared to be no I was grateful to my noble and learned friend the problem with visitors to Scotland not knowing that Minister for addressing my proposed amendments to the ban existed in Scotland, albeit that at the same the Road Traffic Act 1988. I purposely avoided tabling time it did not exist in England. These matters will not amendments to do with the Highway Code. It seems to be dealt with clandestinely. You can bet your life that if me much more important at least to get the matter the change is made it will be well broadcast. Indeed, as clear for people sitting the driving test. I shall read my my noble friend Lord Younger indicated, a change noble and learned friend’s response, which was very was made in the Republic of Ireland that was well detailed as this matter requires a detailed response. We known. I am sure it was well known throughout the have all been trying to avoid muddle. That theme island of Ireland. Living in Scotland and working in seems to run through this group of amendments. My London, I was certainly conscious that that particular amendments do not seek to gainsay the recommendations change had been made. of the Calman commission, but it seems to me that On the question of penalties, there is of course no if any of these amendments are accepted, the two maximum limit to a disqualification. These matters amendments standing in my name would need to be are best taken into account by the court. I hear what accepted also to avoid muddle. the noble and learned Lord says about the minimum disqualification period, especially if it were to apply in Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I am most the event of there ever being zero tolerance of alcohol. grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace, He makes a point that I certainly wish to reflect on who did a formidable job of making bricks without because it is a different point. If there is a maximum straw. I am very disappointed that he did not tell us the limit, no special arrangements need to be made as it is Department for Transport’s arguments for having different properly a matter for the court to take into account speed limits for cars and lorries. Despite all the towns when determining the circumstances of any given and byways that he mentioned on which separate offence. speed limits apply, I am not aware of any town or community in Scotland that can set a speed limit for 5.15 pm lorries as well as cars, which is what is proposed in I shall try not to disappoint my noble friend too the Bill. much on the question of speed limits applying also to I am most grateful for the assurance that my noble HGVs. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, and learned friend will look at this. I take it from what said, the Calman commission made no distinction in he said that he is also looking at my Amendment 49 on that regard. Indeed, I do not think that it was ever penalties. I shall certainly be happy not to press my invited to do so. I should indicate to the noble Lord, amendments and I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Maxton, that motorway speed limits are set by the Duke of Montrose that his amendments are also the Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974. worthy of further consideration. They are set by the UK Government but may be subject to exemptions. If there are relevant exemptions, I will certainly write to the noble Lord. The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I beg leave to As regards the speed limits, I know that I will withdraw the amendment. hugely disappoint my noble friend and other noble Lords in saying that the explanation that was proffered Amendment 47 withdrawn. concerned the development of signage, as he perhaps anticipated. I am aware that that will not satisfy my noble friend. In the light of what he and the noble and Amendments 47A and 47B not moved. learned Lord, Lord Boyd, have said on this point, it is only proper for me to take that issue away and have Clause 24 agreed. 1217 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1218

Clause 25 : Speed limits between devolution and independence—there is a complete difference. Some people try to conflate them— Amendments 48 to 50A not moved. the nationalists, Salmond in particular, try to conflate it for their political purposes—but there is a major, Clause 25 agreed. substantive difference, a complete difference. It does not matter how much devolution we have, we still Clause 26 agreed. remain part of the United Kingdom. Sovereignty is still with the United Kingdom. Once Scotland makes the crucial decision to become independent, it is Clause 27 : Implementation of international irrevocable. We would no longer be part of the United obligations Kingdom. That is a major change, and we need to keep reminding people beyond this Chamber of that. Amendment 51 That is my first preliminary point. The second is that we need to get our courage. I am very glad to have Moved by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock seen the recent launch, reported in the Scotsman today, 51: Clause 27, page 19, line 43, at end insert— of the rainbow coalition between the different parties “( ) Before commencing discussions with representatives of in Scotland. It is about time that the unionists, the foreign governments or inter-governmental organisations, Scottish federalists and the devolutionists got together. Incidentally, Ministers are required to obtain consent to the discussions from a I should like to hear more from the federalists— Minister of the Crown.” traditionally, the Liberal Democrats—about the federal solution, which, as I have said before, is, in my view, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, we suddenly the long-term stable solution for the constitution of seemed to be making rapid progress there, so we the United Kingdom. should now take a little time to contemplate an interesting I am slightly fed up with the accusation from some issue before we get on to the important matters of of the nationalists that it is somehow wrong if we join finance that I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord forces with the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives Sassoon, is here to deal with. Perhaps I may give him in a joint campaign—the phrase “the toxic Tories”has advance notice that under one particular item, I might been used deliberately. There is a smear campaign to feel it necessary to raise the issue of whether or not the try to divide us; that is the purpose. I disagree with the problems that Rangers Football Club currently faces Tories on 99 per cent of what they do, but even a Tory would have been affected in any way if these changes is not wrong always. They can be right from time to to the law in Scotland had been implemented by now. time, and when they are right, we should embrace That is a matter for later in our discussions, but I them, work with them and encompass them in our thought it might be helpful if I intimated that to him activity. now. Some of my more fainthearted friends, whom I will Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, is not new not name, advised me to withdraw the amendment; Labour a monument to that principle? they thought it went a little too far. I must confess that it is not the most felicitous of amendments that I have drafted during the course of this Committee stage. My Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I did not hear that; my friends and colleagues, anxious for my well-being, noble friend Lord Maxton was talking. warned me against a possible cybernat offensive if I moved the amendment. Perhaps I may tell them that Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I said: is not new Labour that offensive has already taken place just by the very a monument to that principle? fact of tabling the amendment. I must say that if the provisions for ageism had already been brought in by the Government opposite—and they have not yet Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: It is a monument? That been implemented—some of the remarks could have is a good question for a start. That has implications in been actionable. That is not to mention some of the itself. As my former Secretary of State will recall, I other things that were said. was always asked if I was new Labour or old Labour and I used to say, “slightly shop-soiled Labour”. Perhaps I may therefore take this opportunity to remind people outwith Parliament of the purpose of Salmond and the nationalists relied on Annabel the Committee stage of a Bill, which, as I understand Goldie and her Tory group for support for their budget it, is for the tabling of amendments—not necessarily every year for the four years when I was in the Scottish to move them and vote on them—to provide debates Parliament. They did not see it as wrong to have that around particular issues. We have had probing kind of coalition. Let us work together where we agree amendments, amendments put forward for debate and with each other and let us not to be ashamed of it. withdrawn, and amendments that have not been moved. That is the right thing that should happen. 5.30 pm I want to make three preliminary points on this My third preliminary point is: do not be afraid of amendment. I have tabled other amendments, which the cybernats and do not be afraid of Salmond. I keep I intend to withdraw, putting “Devolved” in front of hearing from people south of the border who have “Government” in every part of the Bill—the “Devolved suddenly discovered this man Salmond, this great Government”. The reason I tabled those amendments Messiah. That trend is at its peak at the moment and was to have an opportunity to debate the difference he is showered with accolades. Ironically, he was nominated 1219 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1220 the United Kingdom politician of the year. He seemed I return to the amendment. When I was a Minister very proud of that; I do not think he saw the irony in the Department for International Development, in it. He has been showered with awards, by even I travelled the world, inevitably. It was part of my Mr Murdoch, who is one of his new-found friends, his responsibility to go to the poorer countries of the latest best friend. I have known him a long time—not world to see the problems and what we could do about Murdoch, Salmond. Some people here, especially my them. noble and learned friend Lord Boyd of Duncansby and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, will recall that when Donald Dewar was First Minister Lord Martin of Springburn: Just for the sake of and Alex Salmond was leader of the Opposition, he facts, I should point out that my noble friend travelled did not land a punch on Donald Dewar. Donald the world before he became a Minister. [Laughter.] Dewar was head and shoulders above him. Salmond was fighting and getting nowhere, drowning not waving. Lord Maxton: That is a bit unfair. Then he withdrew from Scotland and left Swinney to tackle Donald Dewar; he returned to Scotland only when, sadly for all of us, Donald Dewar died, and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I thought that the noble Salmond saw the opportunity again. Lord, Lord Martin, was a friend of mine—I shall see Through a combination of guile, luck, ability and him afterwards. But he is absolutely right. That was cunning, he has been able to get where he is today. But because I was an opposition spokesman on foreign do not be afraid of him. If we believe, as I think we do, affairs, defence and international development for that our cause is right, we can stand up to him and 13 years. defeat him. He is already showing signs of weakness. It is important for the purpose of the argument and Even Donald Trump has changed his view about Alex for this amendment to deal with when I was a Minister Salmond. It is clear now that Salmond’s judgment in representing Her Majesty’s Government. Even then, urging Fred Goodwin to take over ABN Amro was my private secretary had to submit proposals for travel. less than clever. On his lack of action on sectarianism It was co-ordinated by the Foreign Office and there in not following up the initiative of my noble friend was some logic in that. But for three Ministers from Lord McConnell but letting it drift and then suddenly different departments suddenly to turn up in the same discovering that it was a problem, he has been found capital at the same time, with each not knowing that out. But, above all, he has been found out when the the other would be there, could cause chaos and make spotlight of the real issues of independence has been us look inefficient and stupid. There needs to be some focused on him. He has melted under the heat of that co-ordination; it is a practical matter. spotlight on whether Scotland would keep the pound Of course, the First Minister thinks that he is too and the Bank of England would have its role or grand. He thinks that he can do whatever he likes whether it would join the euro, and he has been shown because he wants to pretend that Scotland is effectively to be wanting on EU membership, on national debt independent at the moment and, therefore, there is no and a whole range of things. So we are ready for the accountability to the United Kingdom Government fight. I commend the Secretary of State for Scotland for anything. At the very least, he should consult the on having said that the referendum could and should Foreign Office before he and other Ministers go overseas be held sooner rather than later. Let us take that fight to make sure that there is not a clash. to Alex Salmond. Now, as far as the amendment is concerned— [Laughter.] Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I am grateful to my “noble friend” for giving way. Does he think that if his amendment had been in place it might have beneficially Lord Sewel: Ten minutes! affected the understanding of the al-Megrahi case?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: They were my preliminary Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: That is a very interesting remarks. point. I had not thought about it. It needs some time to be thought about. Perhaps, by the time we get to the Lord Lyell: Before the noble Lord moves on, would end of this debate, my former honourable friend could he suggest that the First Minister might take over the answer his own question, because he is a barrister and Scottish rugby team as coach? has more understanding and knowledge of these matters than me. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Well, he tried to get on At the very least, I accept the suggestion of my television to talk about rugby, purporting to be an noble friend Lord Browne—I shall name him now—that expert on it, and blamed the BBC for withdrawing his perhaps my amendment has gone a little too far by invitation. In fact, the BBC did not invite him; he proposing that Scottish Ministers should get the approval invited himself and then the BBC said, “We don’t have of the UK Government, but at least they should a place for you, we’re afraid, because we’ve got people consult them. At least, the Foreign Office should who actually know about rugby to talk about it”. It know when Scottish Ministers go overseas and give would be better to have someone who knows about them help. After all, I found that the Foreign Office rugby to manage the Scotland rugby team, but I have could give even Ministers in the Department for no doubt that the First Minister would think that he International Development advice, guidance and help could do it. in relation to our travel overseas. 1221 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1222

[LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK] However, there is a serious point behind what my I worry about the pretence of independence. It was noble friend has alluded to in his amendment, although the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, who said that I am glad that he has drawn attention to the fact that Scotland is in danger of sleepwalking into separation its wording might not be as effective as it might be. and he is absolutely right. We in this House get attacked Despite the enormous elephant in the room of the as old fogeys—all this ageism—and as being non-elected. debate in Scotland about the future of secession or It does not matter that, for 40 years, I was an elected separation, we have to remember that this legislation member either as a councillor, an MP or an MSP—they is about the operation of Scotland within a devolved have forgotten all about that—but now, in here, we arrangement—in other words, within the United have no right, according to some of the cybernats, to Kingdom. There is an important point about the talk about it. Perhaps we do not have a right in that consistency of foreign policy and how that foreign sense, but we have a responsibility to warn people policy is articulated in other parts of the world. about sleepwalking into separation. The pretence I have been at the receiving end of Scottish Ministers that there is no difference between devolution and popping up in other parts of the world and, frankly, it independence, that we are effectively already there and is a matter of walking on eggs. There are some very just have to take that little further step, is not helpful. serious issues confronting us at the moment, not least I urge us all in this argument—I have used just one in relation to Syria. We have just seen the difficulties in example—to be bold. We should not be defensive Libya and we also have to bear in mind that it was about this union. This has been the most successful Mr Salmond who called the intervention in Kosovo political and economic union anywhere in the world an act of “unpardonable folly”. That kind of mixed and we should be proud of it. message on British foreign policy does not help anyone, particularly those who are in international delegations Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, the amendment seeking to convince the world to go in a particular of noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, says, direction. It would be a sign of the maturity of the “obtain consent to the discussions from a Minister of the Crown”. devolved settlement if the Scottish Government were Should he not be specific about which Minister? Would prepared to enter into a mature debate with the Foreign it not be better to say the Secretary of State for Office over areas where there are issues of interest in Foreign Affairs? relation to foreign affairs. The Scottish Government, particularly under my noble friend Lord McConnell, have done a considerable amount in Malawi. That is Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: The noble Lady, Lady an excellent example of intervention, particularly given Saltoun of Abernethy, is absolutely right. The amendment Scotland’s history in relation to Malawi and the very was written rather hastily. It could benefit from that strong ties between Scotland—particularly the University redrafting and it could benefit from the redrafting of Glasgow—and Malawi. These initiatives are of that my noble friend Lord Browne suggested to me great value, but freelance activity is not helpful to the privately—it is not private anymore, I know. If we dissemination of British foreign policy. were to discuss it further on Report and I was to table I am hoping from the tenor of what my noble friend it again, it would certainly incorporate changes of that has said that it is his intention to withdraw the amendment. kind. However, I do not think that the sentiment should be completely lost that there is a sound reason for a Lord Maxton: My Lords, perhaps I may marginally degree of co-ordination and, indeed, for a co-ordinated disagree with my noble friend’s answer to the noble foreign policy. Every one of us in this place and in the Lady. There may very well be different Ministers for House of Commons who travels abroad representing different occasions. If, for instance, we were dealing Parliament has a self-denying ordinance not to criticise with fishing and the Scottish Minister wanted to travel our Government or our country. It would be quite as part of a delegation or whatever, it might be different. helpful if some of the devolved Administrations within It would not necessarily be the Foreign Office he this country also acknowledged that convention. would be dealing with; it might be the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. Therefore, my noble friend 5.45 pm may very well be right in proposing the words “Minister Lord Martin of Springburn: I say to the noble Lord, of the Crown”, because it could depend on which Lord Foulkes, that I was only kidding, so I hope he function was being undertaken. does not go after me following this debate. I remember when we, including the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords, it was not entered the other place when we were freshly elected. my intention to intervene on this amendment but I When the rest of us were having difficulty finding our could not quite resist it. On a couple of occasions this way around this big Palace of Westminster with all its afternoon I have felt great sympathy for my namesake, nooks and crannies, the noble Lord managed to get to Alice Liddell, who wandered through the looking the Falkland Islands at just about the same time as the glass, particularly when we were discussing the variation commandos. Therefore, travel has been part of his in speed limits on border roads. However, I began to parliamentary life. feel that too when listening to some of the remarks of I think that we have to be careful. I do not canvass my noble friend Lord Foulkes—not least his point any more because I am a Cross-Bencher but I am about Rangers Football Club. I think I shall try to already hearing from reliable sources that people on make a point of being elsewhere when we come to that the doorstep are getting concerned about what Alex bit of the debate. Salmond is saying he wants for Scotland. For example, 1223 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1224

Faslane is in my previous constituency, in which I was them doing so, why are we going to put that pressure mainly brought up. There are a lot of employees at on the properly elected representatives in the Scottish Faslane from Springburn, the Robroyston area and Parliament? I hear parliamentarians saying that the Bishopbriggs, where I live at the moment, and they are Executive is too powerful. It rolls off the tongue. I expressing concern about the possible closure of that know the amendment is going to be dropped, but if we facility. Therefore, men and women are talking about bear in mind that this amendment belongs to the the First Minister’s grand ideas. However, the worst House, why is the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, saying he thing we can do is to attack the First Minister or is going to drop it? It is the property of this House. If anyone else on a personal basis. I agree with Johann we pass this amendment, we would be giving an awesome Lamont, who said, “I will share a platform with power to Ministers of the Crown, who we often say anyone who is willing to fight for the United Kingdom have too much power as it is. and support the Scottish Parliament”. That is the road that we should be going down. Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I am very grateful to I am glad that this amendment is going to be the noble Lord for moving this amendment because it withdrawn by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. We would has enabled there to be a discussion about the potential be kidding ourselves if we expected the First Minister role of devolved government in the protection of and the senior members of the Executive in a Scottish interests in overseas discussions. I very much agree Parliament, who have certain rights that the United with what the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, Kingdom Parliament gave them, to go almost cap in said. I cannot believe that it is helpful, in seeking hand to a Minister of the Crown to get permission—I agreement across borders on issues that might affect think the term is “consent” but the meaning is the us, for British representatives to be unable to speak same—to go abroad and speak to officials. We have to with one voice at the official negotiating level. be realistic. We have all-party groups. There has been concern in both Houses that four or five people can The proper time for those discussions is prior to the gather under one roof and say that they are an all-party engagement in the international debate. It is not meant group. We have all-party groups covering subjects to put a ban on representation by individuals who such as horse-racing, dog-racing and many other things, have some democratic authority. The amendment may but many of them are linked with a country. That well be defective in that respect, as the noble Lord has reminds me that I had better declare an interest as a recognised. However, let us consider the situation in member of the British-Italian group—something of reverse. If we, as a British Government, were under which I am proud. It would be strange if the First the impression that we had to deal not just with the Minister of Scotland had to get consent from a Minister Spanish Government on fisheries policy but with a of the Crown, yet the All-Party British-Italian Catalan Government as well, it would hugely complicate Parliamentary Group could send a delegation to Italy our negotiations. I am bound to say that so long as the or go to see the ambassador, who is the official nation state remains, we should be dealing internationally representative of Italy’s Government in London. and not with devolved Governments. It should also be remembered that there have been The representation of points of view is quite a devolved Parliaments in Canada for many years. In different matter. It would have been helpful—to answer fact, the constitution of Canada was held by both the question that was thrown back at me—if there had Houses only recently. However, no one would deny the been a full dialogue between the Scottish Government right of the representatives of the Canadian provincial and the United Kingdom Government about the Governments—if that is the right description—or indeed al-Megrahi case. I am not sure that there was not, in the Speakers from those Governments to visit their fact, such a dialogue; it as remained rather obscure, opposite numbers here without going to Ottawa and but it is certainly important to Britain’s position vis-à-vis saying to the Prime Minister or the appropriate Minister some of our allies that we were not thought to be in of the Crown, “We want to go to the United Kingdom”. complete ignorance of the Scottish Government’s position. They would not dream of doing that. The same would It led to some deterioration of understanding between apply to Australia. the United States and the United Kingdom that there was no absolute clarity about who was essentially to Therefore, although many of us disagree with what take responsibility for the release and return of al-Megrahi the First Minister is saying, there is a danger of us to his homeland. saying to Scottish Ministers that we are putting shackles on them before they can go anywhere abroad, yet any of our number in this House or the other House, or Lord Morgan: I will make one or two remarks as a jointly, can go without asking anyone’s permission. non-Scottish person, although the purpose of this There was a joke about a Member of Parliament who amendment in part appears to be to give the Scottish had a habit of travelling, and when the students were National Party a good kicking. That is a very desirable getting arrested in Tiananmen Square in front of the objective in many ways. Coming from Wales, I am very tanks, so did that Member of Parliament. His constituents glad that we do not have a party with the bitter did not say, “What was he doing in Tiananmen Square? Anglophobia that is frequently revealed by the Scottish He should have been here in Liverpool or in Westminster”. National Party. In Wales, we concentrate on other I make that point not to attack that Member of things, such as beating other countries at rugby and Parliament, who is dead—God rest his soul. speaking our own language. I make the point that if one person in this House or In wishing to criticise the Scottish National Party, another place can take it upon himself to go to a I am very much in sympathy with what the noble country abroad and no one would say a word about Lord, Lord Maclennan, has just said. We must be 1225 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1226

[LORD MORGAN] Foulkes, has been kind enough to say that perhaps his careful not to give the impression of imposing a amendment is not the most felicitously drafted. Its uniform pattern on the ongoing process of devolution. substance, however, is that Ministers in the Scottish It is about difference; it is about differentiation; it is Parliament can of course make representations and about pluralism—and it is very difficult to impose any meet delegations and travel abroad, but they should kind of check on that. I recall that Mr Gladstone not pursue an independent foreign policy. famously said, “You cannot put a stop to the onward Until now, we have enjoyed a Civil Service that has march of a nation”. That can apply to nations within kept Ministers in check and within the bounds of their the British Isles as well. responsibilities. I say with regret that there is a certain The question was raised by various noble Lords amount of evidence that that is not happening in about what kind of foreign representations we were Scotland at the moment. The Scottish National Party proposing to monitor or have Foreign Office checks is perfectly entitled to have a policy that states that on. There are already, of course, as other noble Lords Scotland should withdraw from NATO. Why it has have said, enormous ranges of foreign contacts, that policy, I do not know; everyone else is queuing up particularly with the European Union. It would be to join NATO. However, it is not entitled to advance very difficult to distinguish between foreign contacts and advocate the policy within the confines of the that needed control from Big Brother at Westminster devolved Parliament, because foreign and defence policies and other kinds of contact where that was not appropriate. are not the business of that Parliament. The real point is that there is a kind of mistaken assumption that a devolved Scottish Government— 6pm whether it be devo-max or even going beyond that, if If we cannot rely on the sense of responsibility of that actually took effect—would somehow impinge on the elected Members, we must have rules to deal with the sovereignty of the British Parliament. that. In the old days, the rules that worked particularly The word “sovereignty” was used by my noble well were those on financial accountability that lay friend. Views of sovereignty have moved on a great with the accounting officer of the department concerned. deal since it was brandished by Dicey at the end of the The response of the noble Lord who was a Cabinet 19th century as a kind of inalienable set of powers Secretary to some of the complaints that were made that, if they were diminished, would inevitably disappear. by all the parties about the behaviour of the Civil There are all sorts of ways in which the sovereignty of Service in Scotland was disappointing to say the least. this Parliament is fundamentally affected and transformed. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, tabled At the present time, human rights legislation has done the amendment out of sheer frustration. He is on to a that, our contact with Europe has done that, and good point, but unfortunately it is a bit of a blunderbuss. devolution has certainly done that. In the famous It has served to give us a good opportunity to debate phrase, this is a process and not an ongoing policy that these issues. However, it is very important, if we are to comes to an end. have a devolved Parliament, that it sticks to its last, If you look at the concept of sovereignty within the does not create confusion and does not have a leader context of some other countries, you have a very who thinks that it is his job to pursue competing different view of sovereignty. It emerges as a much policies. I am all in favour of competition, but competition more flexible concept; it is not like a cake that you take between Parliaments on foreign policy is going a bit a piece out of and that piece never reappears. Look at far. the länder of Germany, which pursue an enormous range of contacts on industrial, economic, agricultural Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, I will privately and social matters with other countries, enormously reveal that I have not been briefed by the noble Lord, to their success. It has been a feature of the success of Lord Browne of Ladyton, on why the amendment Germany, particularly the länder such as Baden- goes too far; I worked it out for myself. The idea of Württemberg, that their economic prospects have seeking consent seems to be a little insulting. Co-ordination flourished because they have been allowed to be is what we are talking about. The idea of writing into independent in this way and not controlled by a central law a requirement for co-ordination seems very odd. I Government. This is the purpose of devolution, and admit that the Foreign Office that I worked in completely I think this is more likely to be about the success of failed to co-ordinate the travel plans of Ministers of devolution than about differentiation. In wishing to both political persuasions. It is very difficult for the criticise the severity and extremism of the Scottish Foreign Office to attempt the task, and it is universally National Party, we must be careful that the extended ignored by the rest of Whitehall. The person who can implications of devolution are not criticised as well, achieve the task is the ambassador who is lucky enough because they are enormously valuable for the well-being to have a couple of ministerial visitors. If he tells A or of our country. A’s office that B will be in the House at a certain time, A will decide that his plans require him to come at Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I have two another time. In my experience, the collegiate atmosphere brief points to make. I very much agree with what the of any British Government has meant that it is perfectly noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, had to say on these easy to separate visits one from another. Therefore, matters and I will not repeat the arguments. I would this is unnecessary. just like to pick up the point made by my noble friend The innuendo was made that the Scottish nationalists Lord Maclennan. One of the big low points in my are going around arguing with other NATO Governments political life was seeing the saltires flying in Libya against NATO. I have not seen any evidence of that. when al-Megrahi landed there. The noble Lord, Lord I would be surprised if it were true. 1227 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1228

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Perhaps the noble Lord what they want. I would like to see the proposal, if it is would care to read the Scottish nationalists’ manifesto. around. Are the Government sitting on a suggestion from Edinburgh that has not found its place in the Bill Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: Yes, but the innuendo because they did not agree with it? If the Scots came today was that they must not be allowed to talk to forward with something at this stage, would the foreign Governments because they would try to persuade Government insert a clause in the Bill? them in some way to leave NATO. That is a big jump. It is worth addressing the question of whether, as Of course it is in the Scottish National Party manifesto; you give a bit more devolution, you should give a we have all read it. However, again in this debate, I larger role in the preparation of a position for certain have been worried by the splendid attack of the noble councils. I do not know whether that would extend to Lord, Lord Foulkes. He said that he is up for the fight. the presence of a representative such as a Minister It is easy to have this kind of fight when the opponent from the Scottish Government in the ministerial team. is not in the ring. We ought to be careful about I remember days when that was the case. When we insulting somebody who is not here. I am happy to be first joined the EU in the 1970s, we were always insulted because I am here. However, the fight should represented in the Fisheries Council by a Minister be conducted out there on the hustings. Here, we from the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, should try to avoid insult and innuendo. and by a Minister from the Scottish Office, operating in tandem. I will not comment on whether that was a Lord Maxton: To be fair—and not even to be good arrangement. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, fair—the fact is that the Scottish nationalists are not will have a better memory of it than I. here through their choice, not through the choice of The German Länder are represented in the back the House. If they wanted to be here, putting their row of many councils that deal with domestic affairs; case, they could be—instead of relying on the one they do not have a speaking part. I would not recommend Welsh nationalist in the House. that anybody look at Belgium, but if we do, we see that in many councils the Walloon and Flemish Ministers attend alternate meetings. That is ideal for those Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: It may well be true that it negotiating from a different point of view from that of is their choice. If so, it is a great mistake. I hope it is the Belgian Government, because it means that the the view of all in this House that it would be very good Minister never knows what happened in the previous if they were here. While they are not here, we should council and it is possible to score some runs at his try to avoid insult. It does not do us any good when expense. our debates are reported in Scotland. When devolution happened, a concordat was prepared in London and negotiated with Edinburgh that laid Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I did not say anything down detailed rules on what kind of issues the Scots that was insulting, and I do not do innuendo. I am should be consulted on in full. I do not know how well quite direct. I said that the First Minister should not that has worked; I have been away. If it is not working use his position to make the case against Britain being well, it could be looked at again; there is no issue of in NATO. There is nothing insulting about that. Nor principle there. As we devolve a little more, maybe we is it an innuendo. Equally, the First Minister, who is ought to devolve a slightly bigger role in the preparation paid from my taxes, should not go around the world of such things. arguing against our nuclear deterrent. He should concentrate on his duties as First Minister. There is These are my questions for the Minister. Has anybody nothing insulting about that, and there is no innuendo. asked? Has anybody specified what is wanted? What would the Government’s attitude be? Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I am sorry but I am not aware that the First Minister is going around the Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I was a Minister who world arguing that people should leave NATO or that attended the Agriculture and Fisheries Council in the Britain should leave NATO. I am sure that he is saying 1970s, although I did not belong to the Ministry of that, if elected, he would choose to leave NATO. The Agriculture; I was representing the consumer interest. innuendo is the implication that he is undercutting the I recall a number of Ministers coming to these councils policy of the British Government policy by saying that but they all belonged to the same Government. Prior Britain should leave NATO. I do not think that he is to our participation in these debates, we had clarified doing that. I do not know what he is doing; he does what our objectives were in common and we did not not have somebody here to tell us, which is a pity. seek to confuse the other members of the council by putting forward entirely different points of view. That I intervened on the amendment to ask the Minister is the risk of having people who are seeking to separate whether there has been any proposal from the Scottish one part of the United Kingdom from another. National Party for the inclusion in the Scotland Bill at this point—because Clause 27 is where it would fit—of The noble Lord has inquired of my noble and a provision that would clarify or increase the role that learned friend as to the Government’s position. It it should play in EU negotiations, in the delegation would be very interesting to know what he considers that comes from these islands or in the preparation of should be the position. the positions that the delegation will advance. I ask that because I do not know the answer. Last summer, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I draw a distinction between as I recall, the Scottish Government indicated that the situation with a degree of devolved authority—maybe they wanted something of the sort. I do not know a little more if this Scotland Bill becomes law—and 1229 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1230

[LORD KERR OF KINLOCHARD] getting students from other countries to come to your the position of an independent Scotland. That is a universities—where the circumstances may be different totally different question. I would think it extremely in Scotland or Wales, and those opportunities can be unlikely that a delegation consisting of representatives taken. Likewise, with regard to industrial development, of the London Government and the Edinburgh Wales did very well indeed in combining with the Government negotiating in Brussels in a situation of motor regions, including Baden-Württemberg, and devolution but not independence for Scotland could there is industrial benefit to be had from the bilateral not work out in advance and in private what was the relationships. best line and who would make which point. I do not Sometimes it can get a little bit more complicated. think it very likely that the representatives from Edinburgh The former First Minister of Wales, Rhodri Morgan, would see it as their task to undercut the United led a delegation to Patagonia, where there is of course Kingdom interest because that would—while devolution a Welsh community.The interests of the Welsh community persists—also undercut the Scottish interest. in Patagonia, if one considers them in the context of some recent developments, may not be exactly the Lord Sewel: One of the difficulties in relation to Europe same as the interests perceived in this Chamber. Therefore, and getting a common view—almost parity between a balance has to be struck. I do not think that anyone UK Ministers and Scottish Ministers—would be around would say for a moment that the First Minister of fisheries policy. The position of the SNP Administration Wales should not have those links with Patagonia; it is in Scotland is that—and God knows how it can be a question of how the thing is then undertaken. done; I do not think it can—Scotland would leave the We have also seen it working the other way round. common fisheries policy. That creates a totally different Because of the existence of the National Assembly—and negotiating framework in that policy area from a I suspect this is true in Scotland with the Scottish Government who say, “We are staying in but we have Parliament—there are opportunities for people coming to reform and modify the common fisheries policy”. from overseas to link up with people with whom they can do business on a bilateral basis. That is not a Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, as I attended problem at all in terms of the UK. 108 meetings of the Agriculture and Fisheries Council The last two or three contributions have touched on I must just very briefly intervene. Of course, it was very the European Union, and that of course is where common in the council that a Minister from the Scottish problems can arise. In Wales we have had the opportunity Office—a Scottish member of the UK Government—led to lead the UK delegation from the National Assembly for the United Kingdom. This was quite right, because in matters such as the sheep-meat regime, which was of the huge fishing interest of Scotland. That was led by Elin Jones, the Minister for Rural Affairs; Wales perfectly reasonable. I do not remember any case has also led in minority-language meetings. There are where there was anything complicated about that. opportunities like that. However, the problem arises—and I should add that some other member states did we do not do ourselves any favours if we hide away something quite different. For example, a representative from it—that there will be some circumstances where of the regional government in Belgium spoke for the interests of Scotland or Wales may not be identical Belgium on a number of occasions, and I think on one to the interests, as perceived from London, of the UK or two occasions a representative from a German as a whole. Fisheries may be one; I am not close Länd spoke for the German delegation in the council. enough to that to know. Colleagues from Scotland are That was not the British position but the position of much closer to that. two other member states. It may be that even on party-political balances—we in Wales have a Labour Government now; there is a Lord Stephen: Before the noble Lord sits down, Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government here—the perhaps I may point out that indeed that has happened: perception will be different and the profile that people a Member of the Scottish Parliament has represented want to project to the outside world may be different and has led for the United Kingdom at a European because of that. The question is: how can the line be committee. Therefore, the pattern that the noble Lord drawn within a devolved settlement that is reasonable has described is unusual but it has happened. in all circumstances? That is what we need to address, to get the balance right there, rather than perhaps 6.15 pm fearing that the thing can go to an extreme that causes difficulties for all concerned. Lord Wigley: My Lords, I apologise profusely to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for missing the opening of the debate. I was quite distraught, actually. There Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords— was a ministerial meeting on another matter. I had looked forward to being here for this debate. Lord Boyd of Duncansby: I can quite understand I only rise because my name was mentioned and my the noble and learned Lord’s wish to progress matters. presence here without opening my mouth would be I am not entirely clear where to start. The amendment looked at askance. I do not want to go into the before this House is that: fighting with regard to the profile taken by the SNP “Before commencing discussions with representatives of foreign Government; I want to follow the question of when it governments or inter-governmental organisations, Scottish Ministers is legitimate for a devolved Government to try to have are required to obtain consent to the discussions from a Minister their own voice. Clearly there are opportunities to deal of the Crown”. with other countries—for example, in education, in It seems that we have ranged a little beyond that. 1231 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1232

Perhaps I should start by declaring that I have had to you because I need to get consent from the relevant discussions with my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Minister”? As we have heard from the noble Lord, Cumnock. He is at liberty to tell the House what these Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, sometimes not even the were. I did not actually warn him about cybernats. I Foreign Office is able to co-ordinate. should perhaps advise him that he should not read With respect I also ask: what exactly are we attempting what they say because they will just make him upset—and to do in this amendment? What sanction do we impose at his age he really ought to be careful. on Scottish Ministers if they do not get consent? We I will try to pick up some of the points that have risk giving the Scottish Ministers a tool with which been made, and make one or two of my own. First, it they can claim, yet again, that they do not have the seems desirable to ensure that there is good co-operation respect of the UK Government, and that they are between the UK Government and Scottish Ministers being gagged while they go about what they consider when they are engaged overseas. That has not always their legitimate business. That is not just a question of happened, and even when the Scottish Ministers were consent. If my noble friend is thinking of coming back of the same political persuasion as the UK Government with an amendment that they should advise or consult it did not always happen. I am not saying that there before they do that, the same question arises. What were any undue difficulties, but sometimes the co-operation sanction does my noble friend suggest should be visited broke down. I must however say that, personally, I was on a Scottish Minister who does not consult, get always grateful for advice from the Foreign Office. My consent or obtain whatever other permission is required noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith, when he by this amendment? was Attorney-General, and I represented the United We should think long and hard. I endorse a lot of Kingdom at a conference in China between the European what the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, said, Union and the ASEAN countries on the issue of because he made much the same point in his interesting serious crime. I was due to chair a session of the comment, which of course comes from his long experience, conference which included the Attorney-General of mainly in the other place but also here. We should Burma. I was unclear as to what role I should take in listen very carefully to these voices before we go down relation to the introduction of the Attorney-General this road. of Burma, and I remember being very grateful for the advice that I got from the Foreign Office on that. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, it has been Secondly, it is right that both Governments respect useful to have this discussion on foreign relations and the jurisdiction of the other, and that we recognise the the devolved Administration and devolved Parliament frustration where it is felt that Scottish Ministers go in Scotland. I share a lot of the analysis of the noble beyond their responsibilities, particularly where it appears and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, that in that they are pursuing a broader political strategy. fact what this amendment proposes is largely unrealistic. However, Scottish Ministers have legitimate areas He questions the sanction; we can readily anticipate of activity which involve interaction with foreign how it would be spun if indeed it was accepted. Governments and intergovernmental organisations. They Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, accepted himself have responsibility for implementing directives of the that the amendment was flawed. That said, the noble European Union in the devolved area. They need to Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, indicated that address vital European Union interests, not just in certain sentiments were associated with this that we terms of directives but in terms of policy, and in doing should not lose sight of and quite properly referred to so they interact not just with foreign Governments but the initiative pursued by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell with other devolved Administrations. The noble Lord, of Glenscorrodale, when he was First Minister, in Lord Morgan, referred to the experience of the German promoting Scotland’s links with Malawi. That was Länder, and the way in which they go about their done in full consultation and co-operation with the business. United Kingdom Government and has been widely applauded and respected. It shows that it is possible to Ministers also have responsibility for promoting have that kind of relationship. Indeed, as the noble trade, tourism and investment, and that of course and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, indicated, there are necessarily brings them into contact with foreign Ministers legitimate areas of responsibility that fall on the devolved and Governments. They also take an active part in Government in Scotland involving interaction with intergovernmental organisations and conferences. I foreign Governments. recently participated in a conference at the London It is important, therefore, that the Committee should School of Economics on what was called sub-state be aware that there is a memorandum of understanding diplomacy. I found that quite instructive in finding out or concordat on international relations, which deals the way in which devolved Administrations work, not with devolved Administration engagement with other just in Europe but in other places; learning how Quebec, Governments and which is therefore relevant to under both nationalist and liberal Governments, had the Scottish Government’s interaction with foreign promoted Quebec, and looking at the experience of Governments. Two areas are identified that are of Catalonia and the Belgian states in Europe. relevance here. Bilaterally, the Scottish Government It seems unrealistic, if I may say so, to suggest that may, in co-operation with the Foreign and Commonwealth each time Scottish Ministers were to speak to Ministers Office, make arrangements or agreements with foreign of other Administrations they should first get the Governments or international organisations on devolved consent of the Government. First of all, if you are at a matters, conference and you are approached by a Minister of “provided that such arrangements or agreements do not purport another Government it is not always possible to get to bind the UK in international law, affect the conduct of international that consent. Do you say “I’m very sorry, I can’t speak relations or prejudice UK interests”. 1233 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1234

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] position? They will either speak against the interests Indeed, I can think of educational agreements that of Scotland, which they represent, or speak up for have been reached. It also says: Scotland and go against the agreement. “The Scottish Government is, however, obliged to consult the FCO in advance about any contact, correspondence, or proposal that is novel or contentious, might create a contingent international Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, that is the liability or may have implications for international relations”. stuff of the negotiation that takes places ahead of On international organisations it is sometimes these Council meetings. It is important that there is appropriate—and this is recognised in the concordat that good co-operation. It would not be sustainable or memorandum of understanding—for, for someone in the United Kingdom Government seat “Ministers or officials from the devolved administrations to form at the table to articulate a policy contrary to the part of a UK negotiating team”. United Kingdom view. Obviously, one can imagine In these circumstances, that if a Minister from the devolved Administration did not like it, he would not be jumping to be at the “The UK lead Minister will retain responsibility for the negotiations meeting speaking on behalf of the United Kingdom and will determine how each member of the team can best contribute”. Government. This brings us to the issue that was raised by the However, these negotiations take place and I recognise noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, and that was enough noble Lords here from my days in the Commons spoken to by a number of other noble Lords following who took part in the fisheries debates. The noble his intervention. He asked what the position is. The Lord, Lord Sewel, was the Fisheries Minister and Scottish Government—his memory served him well—have knows full well what the run-up to the December put forward a proposal to have a statutory right to Council meeting in particular, and others, can be like. attend and speak at all Council meetings that relate to There is a negotiation to take place and a line has to be devolved matters. It was one of the six proposals that agreed in advance, not just between the United Kingdom the Scottish Government put forward in the summer Government and the Scottish Government but between of last year. My colleagues in the UK Government are the Welsh and Northern Irish Administrations as well. considering this request along with the other requests from the Scottish Government and will respond, but it The Duke of Montrose: Perhaps my noble and learned should be clear that a statutory right to attend would friend will tell me if I am wrong, but my impression is inevitably have an impact on Welsh and Northern that currently the Scottish Administration feel that Irish representation. they should have the right to send the representative Perhaps we may therefore look at what happens in Minister in fisheries negotiations. practice. At present, Scottish Ministers can and do attend Council meetings when devolved matters are under discussion and do so as part of a United Kingdom Lord Wallace of Tankerness: As I indicated, the delegation. My noble friend Lord Stephen indicated request was for a statutory right to attend. In a hypothetical that there have been occasions, although perhaps not situation, even if they were to be the UK Minister, many, when a Minister from the Scottish Executive, as they would still have to articulate what had been it then was—and still is—has led. Indeed, on more agreed at a quadrilateral meeting as the United Kingdom than one occasion he represented the United Kingdom, line. It is important that we recognise that for the most albeit as a Liberal Democrat Minister in a coalition part this process works and has worked well. It is Government representing the United Kingdom. When sometimes not the perception that one gets, but a lot I was the Justice Minister in Scotland, I sat alongside of hard work and effort is put into it. Mr Blunkett when he was Home Secretary. At an It is also the case that, when Scottish Ministers hold appropriate point when Mr Blunkett thought that the meetings overseas, the United Kingdom’s diplomatic matter under discussion was more relevant to Scotland missions overseas offer them the same level of support than it was to England, I spoke on behalf of the as they would to United Kingdom Government Ministers United Kingdom. and delegations. I certainly can vouch for that. Indeed, The crucial point is that we spoke to an agreed that was my understanding shortly after I took office United Kingdom line. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, as the Deputy First Minister in the Scottish Executive is right that on issues such as fisheries there often can in 1999. The then First Minister, the late Donald be great tensions, but every effort is made ahead of the Dewar, indicated to me that the then Foreign Secretary, Fisheries Council to ensure that there is a United the late Robin Cook, had made it very clear that he Kingdom line to which whoever speaks is expected to, wished Scottish Ministers visiting foreign countries to and does, follow. be accorded the full facilities. Certainly, it was always my experience that the help was very considerable. It is also important to remember that, when 6.30 pm representing devolved issues, the devolved Administrations Lord Wigley: I understand the practicalities and can play a valuable role in promoting commerce, industry that it is desirable, if at all possible, to have a united and culture. When Scottish Development International, line, but does the Minister not understand that there a part of the Scottish Administration, arranges visits may be a genuine difference of aspiration and that the with a ministerial involvement, it works to try to bring needs of Scotland may be different from the perceived jobs, employment and investment to Scotland and the needs of the United Kingdom? Does that not put the United Kingdom, something which would be beneficial representative from a Scottish Government in a difficult to the United Kingdom as a whole. 1235 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1236

The noble Lord, Lord Morgan, and the noble and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I knew that he was not learned Lord, Lord Boyd, referred to the Länder. from Edinburgh but I did not realise that that stretched Certainly, one of the strengths of devolution is that, to all parts of Scotland. I know what a distinguished whereas perhaps in the past the United Kingdom diplomatic career the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has had Government could not readily relate to or have but, with due respect, although there are not any engagement with Catalonia or Saxony, that is a level Scottish nationalists here—there is a Welsh nationalist—as of engagement that Welsh Ministers, Scottish Ministers my noble friend Lord Maxton said, the invitation has and Northern Ireland Ministers are able to have, which been made to them. Some people within the SNP, benefits the United Kingdom as a whole. notably Mr Peter Wishart MP, would like them to I fear that this amendment would introduce a statutory accept. I hope that they will and I urge them to accept requirement which—I have already indicated that I the offer to have SNP Peers. Just because they have not share the analysis of the noble and learned Lord, Lord accepted, that should not gag this House from debating Boyd—would not work. As I have also indicated, this matter. We are part of the British constitution and there is a memorandum of understanding, or concordat, the legislation of this country. It would be wrong to in place to ensure that any engagement with Scottish inhibit us because they do not take up the offer. Ministers is conducted in a constructive way. I hope I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made that that will reassure Members of your Lordships’ a good point about the role of the Civil Service in House. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has facilitated encouraging the SNP in some of their policies in an opportunity to discuss these issues and I hope that relation to the break-up of Britain. I urge him to take he will follow through on what he indicated and will a look at my Amendment 73, because it will give him withdraw his amendment in the light of these assurances. another opportunity to debate this issue in more This has been a useful debate. detail, particularly some of the astonishing actions of Sir Peter Housden. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for a helpful reply. As he said, I have the greatest respect for my noble friend Lord it has been a good debate, notwithstanding the manifest Morgan, who is a most distinguished Labour historian. flaw in my drafting of the amendment, for which I I accept his admonition to be careful in this. I would take full responsibility. Now that the Minister has drawn also ask him to have a wee look at what some of the our attention, or reminded those of us who have seen more extreme nationalists are saying. To use the old it and been involved with it previously, to the concordat phrase, some of my best friends are nationalists. I even on international relations, it might be useful to draw it had some at my famous birthday party, which my again to the attention of the Scottish Government in noble friend Lord Browne revealed in a previous debate, the gentle, kindly way in which he is used to doing. and I get on with them very well. But we should look at some of the outpourings of the more extreme Perhaps I may say to my noble and learned friend nationalists. They talk about “English colonialism” as Lord Boyd that even people of my age—even people if Scotland has been colonised by England. They liken at the age of my noble friend Lord Maxton and Scotland to India or some African states and say, “We upwards—can come up with ideas occasionally. He must throw off the yoke”, when all of us know that was worried about sanctions. Let me underline that I many of the colonialists were in fact Scots, not English. am not suggesting this but, for example, if any expenditure incurred by a devolved Administration were ultra vires—in other words, they were doing things for Lord Morgan: I am sorry to interrupt the entertaining which they had no responsibility whatever—sanctions remarks of my noble friend. I am glad that he made could be available. the point that we do not have that kind of bitter I should like to say how much I appreciated the Anglophobia, but there is a danger of throwing out intervention of my noble friend—perhaps I may call the nationalism of the SNP with the national sentiment him that—Lord Wigley. Perhaps I can put it this way: of Keir Hardie and the founders of our party. We are we are not used to quite such sensible nationalists in the pluralist party, and that is very important. our parts. I thought that his contribution was very diplomatic, sensible and helpful to the debate. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I accept that. My title, as Now we come to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of my noble friend Lord Morgan knows, is “of Cumnock”. Kinlochard, who I suspect, from what I know of him Keir Hardie lived there and is buried there. That is why and from his contribution, is not quite used to the I chose it as my title. One of his planks was home rule. hurly-burly of Scottish politics. He will know—if he There are some others that I do not agree with quite as does not, I will tell him—that all of us here involved in much, but with home rule I certainly do. the hurly-burly of Scottish politics are willing to make our arguments in any ring that is made available. The Lord Morgan: Temperance. noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, suggested one the other week. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, and I have discussed it. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Indeed. Temperance is Lord Steel of Aikwood: The noble Lord is one other. I accept what my noble friend said. I shall underestimating the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. When he move on because the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will was ambassador in America and I was on a visit to raise important matters for discussion in relation to Washington, he invited me to stay. He added to his finance that we want to participate in. invitation, “You’ll have had your tea”. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, raised a very interesting question with regard to Al Megrahi. My A noble Lord: He is a Glaswegian. noble and learned friend Lord Boyd knows much 1237 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1238

[LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK] of this orphan Bill and the fact that this is the product more about it than any of us here and I do not want to of the Calman commission. So far as I know we have go into the detail. Like the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, still not had a formal response so we have not heard I did not like seeing the saltires waved when Megrahi from the Scottish Parliament whether it is prepared to arrived at the airport in Tripoli. I thought that the way give legislative consent to it. That tells you everything in which the Justice Minister in Scotland dealt with you need to know about the gymnastic qualities and it was entirely wrong. However, to suggest, as some abilities of our glorious First Minister. people have, that it was Tony Blair who told Alex One of the things that is sad about this sad little Bill Salmond and Kenny MacAskill to release Al Megrahi is that it is actually hugely radical in what it proposes. is just manifest nonsense. Even if he had, which he did It will give enormous powers to the Scottish Parliament. not, can you imagine them doing his bidding on this? It is devo-max, and as we have had reason to discover However, I accept the point made by the noble Lord, in our debates earlier today, it is devo-max on issues Lord Maclennan. It is important in relation to such as speed limits and so on to the point of absurdity. co-ordination between the various parts of the United In this part we are dealing with the heart of huge Kingdom. changes that are being made, but which do not seem to I want to say to my friend the noble Lord, Lord be part of the debate in Scotland. Indeed, we are in an Martin, that I forgive him for his disarming intervention, absurd position where the debate is about what further which I really enjoyed. He and I have been good policies could be added when this Bill provides for friends for a long time. We were talking about membership them. Picking up on a point made by the noble Lord, of NATO in relation to policy differences. There is Lord Foulkes, in one of his interesting newsletter also the question of the deployment of Trident. I do blogs to his civil servant colleagues, I think that the not know if I am giving away a secret when I say that Permanent Secretary in the Scottish Government the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy described it as, will shortly be publishing a report which might be of “lost in the mists of time”, interest to noble Lords. I also thought that his suggestion in relation to Canada might have some advantages. We and no longer of relevance. could look at precedents with regard to protocols I have to apologise to my noble and learned friend. between provinces and federal Governments as we As always I had fantastic help from the Public Bill move towards a more quasi-federal or federal solution Office, but I do not think these amendments are here in the United Kingdom. brilliantly drafted. What I want to do is in effect get Last and certainly not least I turn to my noble rid of the provisions that give the Scottish Parliament friend Lady Liddell, the Secretary of State emeritus, the ability to invent completely new taxes. Not only who as always made a most helpful contribution. She are we going to have a Scottish income tax, but completely reminded us that the Malawi co-operation was in fact new taxes can also be invented. They can invent a agreed with the Department for International window tax and they can have a local income tax. My Development. Interestingly, I was one of the Ministers noble friend Lord Sassoon is shaking his head; I will in DfID when it was agreed. When the devolved happily give way as it might save some time if he is Assemblies and Parliaments work in areas that are going to tell me that that is wrong. The only thing that complementary to the work of the United Kingdom, stands in the way of those taxes being implemented is we help each other and it is really enriching. I can see an Order in Council which has to be approved by both the Whip making an interesting face at me, so finally Houses of Parliament. I must say that I shall withdraw the amendment. I am not going to start on another history lesson, but I thought that the whole point of this place—perhaps Amendment 51 withdrawn. not this House but certainly the other place; and this Clause 27 agreed. place until 1911—is that it is not possible to raise taxes without the consent of Parliament. This provision in 6.45 pm the Bill muddles that principle by allowing the Scottish Parliament to decide on a new tax—let us call it a local Clause 28 : Taxation: introductory income tax, a window tax or something of that kind— and all it would require is the agreement of the Executive in London, which then has to put the proposals to Amendment 51ZA both Houses of Parliament. Moved by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean When it comes to the politics of this, is that really 51ZA: Clause 28, page 20, line 29, at end insert “, and a proper check and balance on the ability to raise (c) section 29(2)(f)” taxes on the people? It seems it would be politically extremely difficult in circumstances where, say, an Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I shall try to SNP Administration decided to introduce a local income be brief. The issue is covered by a number of other tax for either House to be able to oppose that with any amendments grouped with this one. I was absolutely political credibility. It is one thing to say, as those who astonished when I reached page 2 of the Scottish argue for devo-max do, that the Scottish Parliament edition of the Sunday Times this week. There was an should be able to get all the revenues raised in Scotland article by Jason Allardyce which informed me that the and be responsible for expenditure; but it is quite First Minister, as a result of negotiation, had been another to provide for the invention of new taxes and able to get extra powers to raise income tax in Scotland for the only control on them to be an Order in Council, and arrange extra borrowing. No mention was made which is then subject to a resolution by both Houses. 1239 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1240

In short, I do not believe that this clause should be political scrutiny that is appropriate and necessary. in the Bill. I am very interested as to what new taxes The granting of a power to enhance the taxing powers the Government have in mind might be introduced by of a devolved parliament is not something that should the Scottish Parliament, which it would fall upon the be done lightly, casually or trivially. It should be done people of Scotland to pay. I am told that if you do an only through the process of primary legislation to opinion poll in Scotland, there is great support for ensure the absolute, measured, considered and examined new powers—if you ask the people, “Would you like scrutiny of any proposal. The order route is inadequate the Scottish Parliament to have new powers”, you will because we do not amend Orders in Council—this find there is a lot of support for that. However, if you House is, rightly, reluctant to vote down orders and ask the people of Scotland, “Would you like the they see a very abbreviated form of parliamentary Scottish Parliament to be able to invent new taxes, scrutiny. which would fall upon you?”, I wonder whether there would be the same level of support. If you asked them, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Is it not an oddity that “Would you like the Scottish Parliament to be able to this House is not meant to consider taxation at all and invent and implement new taxes which you do not yet the Bill provides for this House to approve the know about and which have not been discussed?”, I order? am not sure that that would command support. I find it extraordinary that this hugely radical change in the Lord Sewel: Yes, and also, if we look at the way in powers of the Scottish Parliament has not even been which this has developed, I do not know how we come discussed in the Scottish media. I would wager that to this order solution. If you go back to 1997, the only a handful of people in Scotland are aware of it tax-varying powers then were subject to a separate and of the implications. question in a referendum and were incorporated in the This whole clause is not only unnecessary, it is Scotland Act as primary legislation. The Government constitutionally improper and I cannot for the life of today are bringing forward a whole series of tax-raising me think why it should be there. I look forward to my powers to be given to the Scottish Parliament in noble friend telling me what problem this clause is primary legislation. Why is it suddenly decided that meant to remedy and why it should be here. My any new taxes that are not specified in the Bill are amendment would simply prevent this happening without going not to be subject to primary legislation but only proper accountability. I think this is one of the most to what I consider to be the absolutely unacceptable radical parts of the Bill and seems to be completely method of secondary legislation and Orders in Council? undesirable. I do not know whether Calman recommended I mentioned the 1997 referendum, and we know it or not but I would be very surprised if such an there are amendments standing in the name of some open-ended provision was recommended, given that colleagues dealing with the referendum on taxing powers. the Calman commission was so careful in its analysis. I am not in favour of a referendum on taxing powers— I will just forewarn my noble and learned friend of one although I took a referendum Bill through this House, thing. I am sure that in his briefing he will have lots of I am not awfully in favour of referendums. My concern sentences that say, “This fulfils our manifesto commitment is that taxation and the power to create new taxes are to implement the Calman proposal”. Well, there are of such fundamental constitutional importance that other recommendations in Calman that are not in the we run a very grave danger if we devalue the standing Bill and which the Government have set their face of that power and use a way of obtaining them that against. So I would be careful about using that particular may be convenient for the Government but is wrong. argument. I beg to move. It must be the job of the United Kingdom Parliament to be able to scrutinise any proposals for new or The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham additional taxes in any part of the United Kingdom, and Vaux): I advise the Committee that if Amendment through the proper parliamentary process. 51A in this group is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 51B due to pre-emption 7pm Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, the two noble Lord Sewel: My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment Lords who have spoken on this section have made one 51A, which is in my name. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth point with which I very warmly agree—that we are of Drumlean, is absolutely right when he draws our now coming to the real meat in this Bill. This afternoon attention to the central constitutional importance we were dealing with what I call “tinkering devolution”. of the clause. We are dealing with a fundamental This is not tinkering—it is much more serious. I want constitutional issue—the power to create taxes, which to draw the attention of the House to the fact that, is a defining characteristic of a sovereign parliament. since the last day we discussed this Bill, there has been At the moment, the new Section 80B proposed for the a very important development with the Prime Minister’s 1998 Act reads: visit to Scotland and the announcement that he made. “Her Majesty may by Order in Council amend this Part so as He said that if we turn down independence in a to … specify, as an additional devolved tax, a tax of any description”. referendum, the door would be open to better and Through this amendment, I want to ensure that any greater devolution of powers to the Scottish Parliament. change in the tax powers of the Scottish Parliament One of the problems with Mr Cameron—and, indeed, will be subject to the scrutiny that you have with the with Mr Miliband and Mr Clegg, too—is that they primary legislative process rather than that which were all at primary school in 1979, when a similar applies to secondary legislation. The Order in Council promise was made by Sir Alec Douglas-Home. That route is totally inadequate to secure the degree of was never fulfilled, as we oldies well recall. 1241 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1242

[LORD STEEL OF AIKWOOD] On the subject of Denmark, a former Foreign My submission to the House today is that the Minister of that country is a good friend of mine and circumstances today are quite different from those in a fishing companion. There was one occasion when 1979. Alec Douglas-Home was an honourable man, the two of us went fishing in Iceland as a guest of the but he was not in a position to influence Prime Minister Prime Minister. My respect for them and their countries Margaret Thatcher’s hostility to devolution. One reason does not lead me to wish to see a Scottish Foreign why the Secretary of State, Michael Moore, is absolutely Minister with similar limited global influence. I would right to argue for a swift decision on independence is rather have Scots such as Robin Cook and Malcolm that we could then have two years left in this Parliament Rifkind, both of whom I disagreed with but who with David Cameron as Prime Minister to fulfil his wielded strength as Foreign Ministers of the United promise, even though Alex Salmond does not like it. Kingdom. That is the proper role for Scots in future. Talking of Alex Salmond, I want to pick up on I am so glad that the noble Lord, Lord Martin, what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes said earlier. Those mentioned Trident, not in the context of defence who criticised Mr Salmond for his abusive rhetoric policy but in that of economic and financial policy. towards a BBC producer a couple of weeks back were, The SNP’s little Scotland approach is best seen in its I submit, rather missing the point. I have to admit that attitude to the Trident missile programme. We Liberals I both admire and like Alex Salmond. You could put were never in favour of the so-called independent that down to prejudice stemming from our common nuclear deterrent in the first place, and we do not wish youth in Linlithgow, where I first saw him as an to see it replaced. The SNP said that it would remove angelic choir boy in my father’s church. That is not an the base from Faslane to have it anywhere so long as it adjective that I have heard applied to him in recent is south of Carlisle. My view is that until we succeed in times. But admiring or liking him does not mean getting rid of it altogether, it might as well stay where agreeing with him. When I switched on my television it provides many jobs and helps the Scottish economy. on that Saturday afternoon to watch that dreadful I still believe that most Scots would like to see Calcutta Cup match, the last thing that I wanted to see maximum devolution consistent with common sense, was the First Minister popping up to give us his and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was inexpert views. He should be concentrating on governing right in describing opinion polls. That means substantially the country and not looking for camera calls wherever greater financial powers than in the clauses that we are he can. What I admire about him is his chutzpah—but now discussing. I regard this section of the Bill as only it is also slightly worrying, because there is a touch of one small step in the right direction. It is not a new “L’État, c’est moi”, as Louis XIV of France was view of mine or one occasioned by the rise of the SNP. reputed to have claimed. We are told by some people When I took office as presiding officer of the Scottish that to be anti-SNP is to be anti-Scottish. It is time Parliament, I argued from day one that no self-respecting that they understood that the rest of us actually resent Parliament can exist permanently on a grant from being told that to be pro-Scotland you have to be another Parliament and that we should move to the pro-SNP. That is not the case. point where the Scottish Parliament has the power to I have been told by other broadcasters that the raise the money that it spends on all these devolved Salmond rugby experience was not unique for them issues. This Bill is a significant but small step in the and that the SNP heavies have made more regular calls right direction. and complaint to newsrooms than all the other political parties put together. That runs at times close to intimidation. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Can the noble Lord just say what new taxes he thinks the Scottish Parliament might invent using this power? Lord Maxton: Does the noble Lord not think that the strangest thing about that whole incident was Alex Salmond complaining that the BBC was somehow Lord Steel of Aikwood: I have no idea. The important biased against him. I suggest that anybody who listens point is that it should have the power to raise funds as to “Good Morning Scotland” as I do on a fairly it wishes for all the devolved issues. It is no good going regular basis every morning would know that the on talking about refining the Barnett formula and exact opposite is the truth. changing the grant system. It is up to the Scottish Parliament to devise its own taxation methods and Lord Steel of Aikwood: I was going to go on to say raise the money for its own purposes. That is what I that we are actually seeing a trend towards the attributes would like to see happen, and this Bill moves us of a one-party state, where news bulletins are led by slightly in that direction. stories of what the dear leader has been doing today. That is a real danger. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I have a great deal of There is also the question of vagueness of what sympathy with the argument that the noble Lord, independence really means for us financially. Until Lord Steel, has just expressed. I cannot see the recently, the official position of the Scottish National fundamental point of principle that the noble Lord, Party was in favour of joining the euro, until the Lord Sewel, can see. He spoke of this procedure problems of the eurozone suggested instead that there proposed in the Bill as not providing the necessary and was safety in keeping sterling, presumably with all the appropriate degree of scrutiny. The people who would Bank of England controls. Some independence, that—not be taxed are the people of Scotland who elect the for them, apparently, the genuine independence of the Scottish Government. I cannot see any particular point Irish punt or the Danish kroner. of principle in saying that they may not determine the 1243 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1244 form of their taxation. States in the United States of impinges upon macroeconomic policy, and whether it America have a considerable degree of freedom. Local is fair and would inflict great harm on any part of the taxes are different all over the United States. In many economy of the whole United Kingdom. cases, they have a balanced budget requirement. The people of Scotland, speaking through their representatives Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: Yes, that is reasonable. We in Scotland, cannot determine the level of the Scottish certainly agree on the macro point. We disagree on deficit. whether there is a point of principle about forms of taxation. I would like to pick up on the other point Lord Sewel: The argument that the Scottish Executive made by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, about the Prime should have control over the level of taxation is one Minister’s speech in Edinburgh. Here, I disagree with thing, but the creation of new taxes is a totally different the noble Lord, who says that we should proceed to thing. have the referendum as soon as possible, which would give us a couple of years to work out what devo-max Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I cannot really see that means. I do not know why we do not put into this Bill distinction. I would be more worried about the level if what we think devo-max means, with a sunset clause. I the level affected the balance of the deficit of the follow the argument that the referendum should have United Kingdom. The levels would have to be adjusted only one question but there is a genuine problem in so that the tax take in Scotland remained the same that the Sir Alec point made by the noble Lord, Lord proportionate to expenditure in Scotland. But as for Steel, certainly applies in Scotland. People up there do the creation of a new tax, going by a different form, if not really believe that the London Government intend, the Scots chose to lower taxes in form A and raise once one has had the referendum and if its answer is them in form Y, provided that they came to the same no to independence, to confer a further substantial amount and had the same effect on the United Kingdom degree of devolution. Exchequer, that seems to me entirely up to them. I cannot see a point of principle there. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords—

Lord Sewel: The problem of the deficit is really a Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: May I finish my argument? red herring, because the deficit would be controlled by That is not widely believed up there. One could set out borrowing powers. the definition that this Parliament believes would be right for further devolution. I do not expect the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to agree with me because he does Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: If the deficit is not important not want any more, but the Government indicated that to the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, there would be consideration after the referendum of what is the answer to mine? It is perfectly possible for a further degree of devolution—your Prime Minister the Scots, and reasonable, to decide the form in which said it. I understand why that will not happen unless they should be taxed. the referendum says no to independence—that is obvious—but I cannot see why one cannot specify that Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Perhaps I could help the now. noble Lord by asking him a question. If his position is that the Scottish Parliament should be free to invent 7.15 pm any tax and raise it at any level as part of the devolved settlement, why do we need to bother with having both Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Perhaps the noble Lord Houses of Parliament approving it? can help me. He is quite right: I think this is a dreadful Bill which was introduced for political reasons, and that the best thing we could do with it is bin it—drop Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I agree that the Bill proposes the whole thing and get on with the referendum. That a very eccentric procedure. I was going to go on to say is my position. However, it is a minority position, and that, first, on practical grounds, I would hope that no we have the Bill and we are considering it. We are one would set up differential tax systems inside the considering a clause on which the noble Lord, Lord United Kingdom. Secondly, I would not disagree with Sewel, who after all was the midwife of the Scotland the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, against Act and believes in all this stuff, and I are agreed that the particular procedure for vestigial approval which it is a huge transfer of power. To me, that is devo-max. is laid down here. My argument is on the point of principle of the noble Lord, Lord Sewel. Those who I have no idea what the Prime Minister was thinking should be in the lead on the forms of taxation in of when he said that there would be more devolution Scotland should be the Scots; that seems to me to be after it had been decided that Scotland would remain clear. in the United Kingdom. I cannot think of anything that could be added that is not already in this Bill. This I am disappointed with this bit of the Bill— clause which we are considering, for example, provides enormous scope to introduce new taxes, so I would say Lord Sewel: The noble Lord has challenged me on a that this is devo-max. The noble Lord is absolutely point of principle. The argument surely must be that right that the people of Scotland do not know about macroeconomic policy under the devolution settlement it, because nobody is actually reporting it. We are all is reserved and, within that, it is absolutely right and debating something that is already here in this Bill, proper that the United Kingdom Parliament examines and which was actually delivered by the previous any proposals for new taxation on the basis of how it Labour Government—with the support of my party, 1245 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1246

[LORD FORSYTH OF DRUMLEAN] responsibility in Scotland, and we need to move towards which I must say was very foolish. Having said that, that. Some people call it full fiscal autonomy; I call it what does the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, mean when he full fiscal responsibility. says that we should have something added? What Is it devo-max? As other people have said, I do not would he add to this Bill that would be devo-max? know what Salmond means by devo-max. If he means Can he tell me? other functions such as welfare or pensions being transferred to Scotland, I am totally against that. It Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: That is a very fair challenge would be catastrophic and cause tremendous problems and I have no complete answer. In respect of taxation, in breaking up the system that has existed for so long I would argue that devo-max should be precisely what in the United Kingdom. However, full fiscal responsibility the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, does not want: that the is different. Having been in the Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh Parliament should be entitled to decide on I know that at the moment it has responsibility for the forms of taxation. There would need to be the spending the money but not for raising the money. macroeconomic control, which he and I would need to That means that you are irresponsible, and that at any discuss, but the forms of taxation within a given tax time when you do not have any money you blame take—or rather within a given deficit control, because Westminster and say that the Barnett formula is not that is where the control would be—seems to be something giving you enough. This is the problem that the noble which should be devolved in principle. I have made my Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to: how do you get to full point and I do not see the point of principle here. I fiscal responsibility? would argue that the difficulty with devo-max is: who I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and we is going to specify it? I cannot see Mr Salmond’s might both get vilified for this, that David Cameron interest in specifying devo-max, because he wants was right. He was right to say that once Scotland independence— rejects separation, and we must reject it, the door will be open for discussions. There will be a dialogue between Westminster and Holyrood about the new Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I wonder whether when form of devolution. The Secretary of State for Scotland the dialogue is complete, other people might answer is right that we need that yes/no vote as quickly as your question. possible so we can reject separation and move on to discussing what kind of devolution we want. We could Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: Perhaps I should try to have a referendum with devolution options, but it would finish my remarks. be far better if the federalist, unionist and devolutionary parties were to work out an agreed formula for the new enhanced devolution and full fiscal responsibility Lord Steel of Aikwood: If the noble Lord will allow through a convention— me, surely the point he is making is valid. If the post-referendum decision is not to go independent Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am most grateful to and we take the Prime Minister at his word that more the noble Lord for giving way. I am delighted to be is on offer, it is possible for all the parties—including able to disagree with him. Could he table an amendment the SNP, as the Scottish Government—to join in on Report that includes the elements that he thinks working out the best form of devolution-plus, as I would be added after the referendum that would provide prefer to call it, which enables the Scottish Parliament more devo-max devolution? I cannot think of anything, to raise the money that it spends. and he has already reserved his position on welfare. What would it contain? This is already in the Bill. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I entirely agree with the noble Lord. I suppose that my motive, as one who Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: When we get to the believes in the union and does not wish for Scottish Minister’s reply, I think we will find that it is not independence, is that it seems that the chances of a already in the Bill in the form that I would like. We vote for Scottish independence would be much reduced need to work out exactly how much is needed to fund if the credibility of the devo-max option had been the planned expenditure of the Scottish Parliament enhanced by its prior specification. I cannot see who is and to look at ways in which that can be funded going to do that and I am rather sorry that we seem to through taxes raised by the Scottish Parliament. Some be going to miss the opportunity in this Bill to do it, people in Scotland, MSPs and others, including Peter subject to a sunset clause. Duncan of the Conservative Party, have come out with a scheme that they call devo-plus. I do not agree with it fully but it deserves looking at. It is one of a Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Perhaps I can say a few number of options that should be looked at for funding words on this amendment, as one of the people whom Scottish expenditure with income from within Scotland. the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, describes as being “up there”. I am living in Edinburgh, I am a resident, and I will be voting in whatever referendum we have. I am Lord Sewel: Way back in the mists of time, I used to looking forward to it. I do not think of it as “up construct a series of social surveys. One of them was a there”; it is where I live and what I am part of. This is series of questions on the powers of local government. the amendment on which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, We asked people two sets of questions: the first on and I are going to disagree—at last—because I agree which powers were at which tier of local government; with the noble Lord, Lord Steel. We need full fiscal and the second on whether local government should 1247 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1248 have more powers. The initial answer to the latter One could dilate on a whole load of other reasons question was always yes. Then we asked what powers why the finances will not work, but the provision in they wanted to see local government have, and about the Bill to create a new tax seems to have been inserted 90 per cent of them were powers that local government subtly and quietly by the Government because they, already had. That is the problem with the “more too, know that the provision will be inadequate. With powers” argument: it assumes that people are fully the Bill we are not talking about a provision to help aware of the powers that the Parliament already has. I Scotland take control of its finances and create a new simply do not think that that is the case. accountability; in fact it is to demonstrate the complete inadequacy of provisions of this kind for Scottish Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I wish I had not given accountability. That means that it is not a Bill at all way; that intervention was not all that helpful to my but a Trojan horse. argument. If the noble Lord, Lord Steel, David Cameron Many noble Lords seem keen to use the failures of and I can agree on a way forward, there must be some the Bill, which they all discern, as a springboard to hope that this rainbow coalition will find out what is bring in another Bill to create devo-max, if you like to best for Scotland and for Britain, and will avoid the call it that, more high taxation and other measures. dangers of separation and of breaking up the United Almost every measure that the Scottish Government Kingdom. That is the way forward. I have spoken for might like to control in due course, like pensions quite long enough now. responsibility and social welfare, will reveal further inadequacies in the Scottish capacity to provide for Lord Lang of Monkton: My Lords, I had not intended them once they are transferred out of the United to take part in this debate because I have not had the Kingdom. Noble Lords are creating this springboard opportunity to do the groundwork in order to understand towards separation where, under what they call devolution, what my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s amendments are we shall be independent in Scotland in all but name, all about. The House is greatly in his debt for bringing and possibly ultimately in name as well. That would to our attention the most extraordinary proposal create a situation that is not what we are supposed to contained in the Bill. Listening to the noble Lord, be debating, so the whole debate is being conducted Lord Steel, I got the impression that he was arguing under a cloud of self-deception in the hope that no that we should support the Bill because we know that one will notice that failure is built into the provisions it is a bad Bill and that the financial provisions will not of the Bill. be adequate for Scottish needs. I am happy to let him My noble friend Lord Forsyth has put his finger on intervene and correct that if I am wrong, but if he this point extraordinarily effectively, and I am ashamed does so I know that several other people have now that I had not noticed it myself when reading the Bill. argued almost exactly the same point. Personally, I I ask my noble friend on the Front Bench to address believe that if a Bill is bad you should not pass it, this issue and explain why the provision is there and which is why in my Second Reading speech I called for how he thinks it will be used in future. it to be withdrawn. To pass a Bill because you know it is bad seems to be fundamentally wrong. We know that the Bill will not meet the needs of the Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I agree with Scottish finances because in order to do so it would the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, that we owe have to ensure that as the Barnett formula was withdrawn a debt of gratitude to both my noble friend and the over time, Scottish incomes rose at the same level at noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, for the least as UK public expenditure has done over the amendments that they have brought forward to this years. Research done by a couple of academics, Professor part of the Bill and for the way in which they have put Hughes Hallett and Professor Scott, discovered that in forward the arguments that have opened this debate. the eight years to 2008 there was a differential between This is the heart of the Bill. It is an important those two measurements of 0.21 per cent per annum. constitutional Bill, as I said in my opening remarks Over a period of time, Scottish incomes were not today when the Committee convened. I also said that rising as fast as UK revenue. noble Lords could be forgiven for thinking otherwise, There are countless arguments which could explain given the management of its passage through the why the Bill cannot work and that the finances provided Houses of Parliament. I regret that. To the extent that by this 10 per cent tax discretion will be inadequate, I have agreed on occasion to days and dates for the but that alone seemed to be a telling one. I noticed that management of the Bill, on reflection I now regret the answer given by the Treasury in previous discussions doing that because it is such an important constitutional in another place—I would be grateful if my noble Bill. No Members of the Committee should be mistaken friend Lord Sassoon addressed this matter in his wind- that this is not a Bill of constitutional significance and up—was that that had been true over the past eight of potential practical significance for the people of years but would not be true over the next five years Scotland. However, without the provision that noble because public expenditure has been heavily reined in. Lords seek to delete with their respective amendments, I suspect that incomes in Scotland are also being I do not believe that the Bill could be described in pretty heavily reined in, particularly because there is a these terms at all. What was left of the Bill would be higher preponderance of public servants whose numbers far less significant. Indeed, the Secretary of State for are likely to be reduced and whose incomes are being Scotland, Michael Moore, said in his evidence to the controlled, and partly because the Scottish economy is Scottish Affairs Select Committee that without this in a very much poorer state than the rest of the United provision, this would be, Kingdom’s. “a smaller, less impressive Bill”. 1249 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1250

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] collectively want for the Scottish people for the future Those are the words that he used and they are recorded and talk to that, instead of constantly competing with not only in the evidence that he has given but quite each other. We can then fill this space, which the ill clearly in volume I of the fourth report of Session defined devo-max currently fills. 2010-12 of the Commons Scottish Affairs Committee, I am conscious of the time. This debate has perhaps to which I shall refer later on because it raises a taken longer than many people expected because it number of other important and serious issues that stands between them and their dinner. However, there need to be addressed before we conclude our deliberations are very important issues here and this may be the on the Bill. He said that it would be a smaller and less most important debate that we have on the Bill. Therefore, impressive Bill, and that view is reflected in the Select I intend to go through the points that I want to make Committee’s report. with some degree of care. 7.30 pm In Part 3, Clause 28 creates the framework within The noble Lord, Lord Steel, said that this provision the 1998 Act for the devolution of financial powers. and the Bill are small steps towards the sort of devolution Significantly, as well as devolving legislative competence that he thinks is necessary not only to keep Scotland in over new specified devolved taxes in relation to land the union—I know that he is a unionist—but also for transaction and landfill, Clause 28 provides a mechanism the Scottish people. I do not agree with that; this is a for the devolution of additional taxes by statutory very significant step. I regret that we have developed instrument, subject to the affirmative resolution of what appears to be a ghost debate about these issues. both Houses of the UK Parliament and the Scottish The contribution made most recently by my noble Parliament. As this has dominated our debate in friend Lord Foulkes, in which he appeared to be in Committee, it undoubtedly raises an important question agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and the about whether devolution of UK-wide taxes should be Prime Minister David Cameron on this issue, clearly permitted without primary legislation being brought demonstrated what is going on in this debate. He is before and approved by this Parliament. I have to say talking about something different from what the noble that I do not think that is necessary and I will go on to Lord, Lord Steel, is talking about. I have no clue what explain why.There is a much more significant disagreement the Prime Minister is talking about. The three of them between me and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, than can appear to be in agreement only because there is an there is between him and my noble friend Lord Foulkes utter lack of definition of what each of them was or anyone else in this Committee. The Bill is right in talking about. this regard but it is not properly understood. It can be To some degree I commend the initiative that has improved but it will not be improved by taking this become known as devo-plus but there seems to be a clause out. I will explain why. competition to find a suffix to “devo” to come up with First, I will deal with my noble friend Lord Maxton’s something different that will resonate with the Scottish point that the ability to raise taxes defines the people. Fundamentally, I agree with the noble Lord, characteristics of a sovereign Parliament. Lord Kerr. The answer lies in the Bill. In his opening remarks, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, Noble Lords: Lord Sewel. said entirely accurately that there are precious few people in Scotland who understand the significance of Lord Browne of Ladyton: I thought my noble friend the Bill or the potential of this legislation. I have to say Lord Maxton said that. I am sorry; it was my noble that when the Prime Minister visited Scotland recently, friend Lord Sewel. If I had had a private conversation he was among those people who did not understand with the noble Lord, I might have been able to reveal what was already in the Bill. If he had, he would have that beforehand. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, in part spent time explaining the potential of the Bill to the of his contribution that was very helpful, blew that out people of Scotland, including the opportunity—which of the water. States in the United States of America already exists in the Bill—for Scotland’s ambitions for have, within the federal structure, the ability to raise the control of its fiscal policy. I will explain that in a taxes without being sovereign. Across the world, I am moment. Instead, he offered the people of Scotland sure there are many other examples that I do not know something ill defined for the future, which subsequently about of devolved Administrations having the power had to be explained away in what appeared to be an to raise taxes within constitutions that deny them off-the-cuff remark. sovereignty. I am certain that I could find them if I I am a politician so I will make a political point had the research facilities available to me. here. This is not the only time that I have seen the Prime Minister not understand a piece of legislation Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I will not make a smart-alec that his Government are taking forward. Indeed, I point—although I should not say “Smart Alec” in this have seen him do it at the Dispatch Box. It is deeply context in this debate—about other states that can dangerous to talk in vague terms about these issues raise taxes. I follow the noble Lord’s argument, which and then leave the debate in Scotland to be dominated I absolutely respect. However, I respectfully suggest by those undefined words when there is no shortage of that he needs to distinguish between the ability to raise people in Scotland who will define them for him and taxes and the ability to create new taxes. The point will define them for their own purposes. That is the that his noble friend and I were making is that this compelling reason why we need to stop talking in clause gives the Scottish Parliament the power to general terms across the devolution parties about the create completely new taxes. His noble friend argued, level of agreement that there appears to be among us, as I did, that that is distinct from being able to raise and start putting together an explanation of what we taxes. There are states in the US that can set the sales 1251 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1252 tax but, as far as I am aware, do not have the freedom However, there is also no doubt that the breadth of to invent completely new taxes. However, I might be this provision answers a specific call for the further wrong about that. flexible development of the devolution settlement. That is why it is so important to the Bill and of such Lord Browne of Ladyton: Someone had to create great significance and cannot be dismissed as a small the sales tax in the first place. I might be wrong but I step. I say that with all due respect to the noble Lord, do not think that in the United States the creation of a Lord Steel. It is a very significant step in the devolution sales tax is a federal function that is then devolved to settlement. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, the states. that it is a pity that this measure has not been accorded due significance in public debates by those who should Lord Sewel: My Lords— have known about it. The significance of the Calman commission’s Lord Browne of Ladyton: May I just answer this recommendations as a whole lies in providing a framework point first, if noble Lords will allow me? I am perfectly for the continued development of devolution in a willing to try to dredge up examples as I stand here, legitimate and managed way. I support that. However, but it would be pointless. I fundamentally disagree, as I argue that if we agree with the principle of greater does the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that the difference financial accountability for the Scottish Government—we between creating new taxes and raising taxes is as on these Benches broadly agree with that; I do not fundamental as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, says it think there is much discontent about that on our is. There is very little meeting of minds between us in Benches—the decision over whether additional taxes this, but there is no meeting of minds even in relation should be devolved in the future comes down to a to that. decision about the practical impact of such a devolution for Scotland and for the United Kingdom as a whole. Lord Sewel: I am grateful to my noble friend for To that extent I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. giving way. The comparison to the United States is Thus, this is not in my view an issue of constitutional very ill judged. The United States is a federal system. principle. The issue of constitutional principle is whether The United Kingdom is a unitary state with devolved we agree to the devolution of taxes, which is what the Administrations, which is fundamentally different when Bill is specifically about. Thereafter, it is a matter of you talk about sovereignty. the practical requirements of such a power. I hope that noble Lords who think they disagree with me will Lord Browne of Ladyton: We have already had the bear with me as I think that I will answer the point benefit of a very interesting contribution from my that is milling round in their heads about why this noble friend Lord Morgan, which I will read with care, argument is deficient. It is for this reason that we have about the Protean nature of sovereignty.I merely responded tabled Amendment 51B, which would place a duty on to the point that I understood my noble friend Lord the Secretary of State to seek parliamentary approval Sewel to make—that the defining characteristic of for draft regulations on the conditions that must be sovereignty relates to taxation. He seems to be conceding met by any proposed tax for it to be devolved and the the point that it does not. I am sure that if we all read specific consultative procedure that must be followed what the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, said this afternoon by the Scottish and UK Governments. It has become a and perhaps read more extensively what he has probably habit in this Committee for noble Lords to say that the written on the subject, we will conclude that it does drafting of measures may be deficient. The drafting of not. I make the point in passing that I do not think the relevant amendment may indeed be deficient, but taxation is the defining issue of sovereignty. this is the best that I could do. If the Committee and On the genesis of the power, the noble Lord, Lord the Government are inclined to support it, we can Forsyth, asked whether it was recommended by Calman. make it much better between now and Report. The true answer to that is that it was not, but the I believe that much of the concern expressed by my power has its roots in the recommendation of the noble friend Lord Sewel and others about the wide-ranging Calman commission, which concluded: nature of the power in new Section 80A could be allayed “The Scottish Parliament should be given a power to legislate if the Government set out in more specific detail the with the agreement of the UK Parliament to introduce specified criteria that will be expected of any new candidate for new taxes that apply across Scotland”. devolution and a clear process by which those criteria I am not entirely sure whether that statement has a will be applied. I regret that we have got this far sufficient shock effect for the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, without that becoming apparent for the reasons that I as I think he indicated that he would be surprised if am about to go into. The big problem is that Parliament Calman recommended that. However, there can be no is being asked to approve the allocation of a significant doubt that the Bill goes further than this. As I said, the and wide-ranging power to the Executive with practically power was not recommended by Calman but it has its no information about how this will be used in practice roots in the recommendation of the Calman commission. and the safeguards that will exist to constrain it. The Bill goes further than the recommendation, not Indeed, the Select Committee, to which I have only prescribing a much wider power for the creation already referred, understood this well. It concluded in of new Scottish taxes, which is the concern of the its report that it was, noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, but allowing for the future “disappointed that, when pressed, the Secretary of State could devolution of existing UK taxes, as Scottish Financial not give us examples of the type of tax which could potentially be Enterprise and the Scottish Affairs Select Committee, acceptable … We are also concerned by the absence of any clear to which I have previously referred, have pointed out. process or mechanism by which the criteria will be applied”. 1253 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1254

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] sort of devolution that can take place. In other ways, In his evidence, the Secretary of State for Scotland, they should spell out, as Michael Moore did in his Michael Moore, set out extensive and broad criteria evidence to the Select Committee, the criteria that that he said would need to be applied to any tax for it need to be applied and would need to be met before a to overcome the hurdles necessary for devolution. tax—either a new one or a part of the United Kingdom’s The Select Committee went on to ask the Government, existing taxation—could be devolved. “to provide a more thorough and detailed explanation of how We need to amend the Bill to provide that mechanism. this process would work, during the passage of the Bill through I believe that it can be provided by regulation, which is this House”. why the amendment has been drafted in the way that it We should bear in mind that the committee is talking has. At the risk of boring noble Lords, particularly the about the other place. I commend the report of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I do not think it is an issue Scottish Affairs Select Committee more generally to of principle, once we establish the principle, as we will noble Lords. I do not know how many of them have by passing the Bill, that taxation can be devolved in had the opportunity to read it, but I commend it. I this way to the Scottish Parliament. It is a mechanism particularly commend paragraphs 92 to 96, although to make sure that that is done properly and in a way in I do not intend to read them out at this time of night, which the various parts of this deal take their proper and the evidence of the Secretary of State, Michael responsibilities. That is the bit that we are missing Moore, because it reveals significantly the basis of a because this Parliament is entitled to be confident that mechanism for dealing with this issue. any devolved taxes will be used for the benefit of the Noble Lords should not underestimate the importance Scottish people and the union. It is for this reason that of the power provided by Clause 28, and I do not we believe the Government have a duty to enshrine think that they will do so after this debate. It provides conditions to this effect in some form of legislation— a real and tangible mechanism for the continued regulations would be quite sufficient. This would provide strengthening of the devolution settlement and the a clear regulatory framework that can be approved by devolution of further powers. In many ways it is the this Parliament and then used flexibly in the future in antithesis of the further undefined devolution that has the context of a changing settlement between the been alluded to by the Prime Minister of late and, United Kingdom Parliament and the Scottish Parliament indeed, by the First Minister in his flirtation with the —between the United Kingdom and the people of concept of devo-max, whatever that might be. Scotland. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, who I 7.45 pm welcome to our Committee’s deliberations—I do not know how much previous experience he has had of Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I hope that the noble Scottish political matters, but over the next few hours Lord might help me. Is he saying that he thinks this he is in for a crash course—that the Scottish Affairs clause is too broad in its scope and that there should Select Committee raised these issues in its report on be some kind of constraint by way of criteria as to the Bill almost a year ago today. I therefore hope that which taxes could be invented? As it stands, a wealth having had the benefit of a year to consider the matter tax, a further tax on inheritance or a roof tax could further—and I am sure the noble Lord has been be implemented, although a poll tax is probably less thinking of nothing else—at the very least he will be likely. Is he saying that, speaking for the Opposition, able to provide this House with some sort of detailed he favours some kind of procedure that would constrain explanation of the mechanism and criteria to be applied the ambitions of a devolved Administration in this on the use of this power. If he cannot do so, it would respect, or is he saying that this measure goes to the be helpful if he provided us with at least some hypothetical heart of the whole Bill and that it constitutes devo-max? examples of taxes that could meet such criteria.

Lord Browne of Ladyton: I am not saying that this is The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord devo-max; I am saying that this is the Bill. The Bill is a Sassoon): My Lords, one thing on which I think we are very significant piece of legislation and a remarkable all agreed is that we are getting to the heart of the Bill. advance in the potential devolution in Scotland. However, There is a range of views about how significant the as the noble Lord has pointed out, it is misunderstood changes are in Clause 28, but we all recognise the and has not been properly explained. Broadly, it is not importance of what we are discussing. supported or championed in the observations of those The Government are quite clear that the Bill delivers who have brought it to this Parliament. More specifically, substantial new powers to the Scottish Parliament— it has not been championed by the Prime Minister, powers that have been included as a result of careful who has suggested in fact that it is just a small step and and detailed consideration. I want to focus on what is that greater steps can be taken in future. in the Bill, not on what hypothetically might be in it. The people who drafted the Bill and are responsible The Government have been clear that any consideration for it may not have intended to do this, but they have of further powers to be devolved is for after a referendum given us the answer to the challenge for the future post on independence. Let us therefore concentrate for now the referendum on the issue of separation. They may on what we have in front of us. not know that they have given us the answer but they I should also say at the outset that as an intruder have. Now they need to build the other part of the from outside Scotland and a Briton from elsewhere, as mechanism that allows this Parliament—the sovereign the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, suggested, Parliament—to play its proper role in deciding what my observation is that to date devolution in Scotland, the criteria are in advance of specific proposals of the of which the Bill is part of a continuing process, has 1255 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1256 been delivered as a result of lengthy discussion, analysis Lord Steel of Aikwood said about the importance of of evidence and cross-party consensus. That was how accountability. After I have dealt with those issues, I the settlement was delivered in 1997 and that is how shall address in more detail new Section 80B, the the measures in the Bill have been developed. I am subject of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord grateful for the noble Lord’s confirmation at the outset Sewel, and the arrangements that we propose for the that he believes that the tax-raising powers granted in approval of new taxes—the subject of the amendment this clause are appropriate. in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and on which he seeks assurances. That is a critical element of Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: The tax-creating powers the construct to which other speakers in this debate in the Bill, as the noble Lord acknowledged, were not did not give proper weight. recommended by Calman. A phrase, “specified taxes”, New Section 80A introduces the finance clauses in was put in there to deal with the uncertainties over an the Bill. It grants significant positive new powers to aggregates tax. No one has been consulted or is aware—as Scotland, and I should outline the measures in the far as I can see, and that is what my amendment relates clauses and why they represent such an important and to—that the Bill provides for the creation of completely beneficial step for both Scotland and the UK as a new taxes. I do not know where that came from. It is whole. The Scotland Act 1998 specifies that tax policy, certainly not part of the Calman recommendations aside from local taxes, is outside the Scottish Parliament’s and has not been subject to any extensive discussion legislative competence. The changes made by the Bill or consultation. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Lang, that are introduced in new Section 80A will amend the former Secretary of State for Scotland, said that the Scotland Act to enable the Scottish Parliament to he was not aware of the issue until he looked at the Bill legislate on certain devolved areas of tax policy. The in detail—and he is one of the best-informed people in changes will give the Scottish Parliament a real stake Scotland on this matter. in Scottish economic performance because a significant proportion of the budget for public services in Scotland Lord Sassoon: If my noble friend would bear with will come directly from taxes set and raised in Scotland. me, we will get to this point and to other points he has Some speakers have suggested that it would be appropriate made. If he wishes to repeat the points he has made to go much further, but we are taking a significant step previously, he can do so ad nauseam. However, I say here. It will enable the full devolution of stamp duty, to him respectfully that we have got the point loud and land tax and landfill tax and enable the Scottish clear, and I will come on to it. As the noble Lord, Lord Parliament to legislate for a Scottish rate of income tax. Browne, pointed out, the genesis of this power is in Calman. It is a power that has been debated and Lord Maxton: My Lords, I am not very clear about approved of by committees in another place in this the Scottish rate of income tax. I am a Scot; I live in Parliament, as well as in the Scottish Parliament—but Scotland—that is where my home is—but I am paid a I will come back to that. My noble friend completely pension by Parliament which comes from Cardiff. mischaracterises the debate so far over this power to How does that become part of that? It is paid directly create new taxes. into my bank; as far as I know, they do not need to We are discussing a number of amendments to an knowwhereIlive;sohowdoIgetincometaxvariation important clause, and I should therefore make sure for Scotland alone? that we are clear about the architecture of it before I come back to the heart of the arguments. Clause 28 Lord Sassoon: If the noble Lord will forgive me, we inserts new Sections 80A and 80B into the Scotland are coming to income tax under the next clause. I am Act. New Section 80A provides an overview of the sure that we will come back to that extensively and new taxation provisions. New Section 80B introduces properly later. This is the enabling clause that enables a power to add new devolved taxes to those devolved the setting of the Scottish rate as well as the focus of by Clauses 33 and 35, and makes certain consequential the amendment on the power of the Scottish Parliament, provisions applicable to devolved taxes. with the agreement of this Parliament, and subject to Amendment 51A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord safeguards—to which I shall come—to introduce new Sewel, would remove new Section 80B. The amendment taxes. of my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean seeks I hope that the Committee will agree with me and to remove devolved taxes altogether from the legislative the Government that these changes will enable the competence of the Scottish Parliament, thereby preventing Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government to it from legislating on all tax matters besides local respond better to the evolving needs of Scottish society taxes. The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord and the Scottish economy; and that they will increase Browne of Ladyton, and the noble and learned Lord, the Scottish Parliament’s accountability, as its decisions Lord Davidson of Glen Clova, would provide approval on public services will be directly related to decisions of the criteria and procedures under which new taxes on Scottish taxes. will be considered for devolution by this Parliament I see that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, before the power could be used. is nodding in agreement; I hope that that will continue I propose to outline briefly why the financial aspects right through this section of the Bill. No, he is saying of the Bill introduced in new Section 80A, and which that it will not; no doubt we will come back to football I stress my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s amendment clubs and other matters later, but we agree so far. seeks to remove, will raise the accountability of the Thirdly, these changes will bring decision-making Scottish Parliament and benefit both Scotland and the over the issues that affect them closer to the Scottish UK as a result. I very much note what my noble friend people, which we believe is appropriate. New Section 1257 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1258

[LORD SASSOON] the constitutional question of who should be able to 80B will create the power for the Scottish Parliament set a tax, not the rate of the tax nor the structure. The to introduce new taxes, subject to the agreement of question of the introduction of the new tax is indeed both Houses in this Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord one in which this House should have a role, which is Sewel, was quite right to draw attention to the approval included in the Bill and the clause. process. He seems to want to draw it even more tightly but, on the other hand, he points out—partially in Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I apologise for interrupting answer to my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who seems to my noble friend again, but this is central. For the sake think the approval process to be woefully inadequate—that of argument, let us say that this power is used by the the clause states that it must have the agreement of Scottish Parliament to introduce a mansion tax or a both Houses in Parliament, which is not necessarily wealth tax. Is my noble friend saying that this House the case with all taxes as it stands at the moment. could consider and reject it and that that is practical politics? It seems to me that part of the 1911 settlement Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: On that point, perhaps was that this House did not get involved in those my noble friend could deal with the argument here. If matters. In a sense, I am here arguing for more power I may say so, he has put it as if it is not a major for the Scottish Parliament, not less, because I think constitutional point. As a Member of the House of that this has not been thought through. Commons, I was taught that the main purpose of the House of Commons was to vote means of supply; that Lord Sassoon: The answer is yes and yes to my is its main function. Therefore, the creation of new noble friend. The introduction of new taxes is a taxes is a matter which is dealt with thoroughly by constitutional change to the United Kingdom and a primary legislation through a Finance Bill, which enjoys power which will be introduced. I will go through the certain privileges. Those matters do not come to this steps one by one, because we have not debated them House because this House has no part to play in all fully so far this evening. One of the steps is for the matters of taxation, following the efforts of the previous order to be approved by both Houses of Parliament; Liberal Administration. the Government believe that to be appropriate. So that It seems to me to be a hugely novel concept that the is a yes. There may be questions about whether orders House of Lords should be involved in approving the can be amended and other questions, but emphatically creation of a new tax. Can my noble friend explain it is our intention that the order to implement a new why that is included in the Bill? tax has to be approved in both Houses. That is clear. My noble friend may look surprised, but that is the case. I hope that that gives him significant comfort. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, again, I will get there in the logical flow of the argument, if my noble friend Lord Cormack: I am most grateful to my noble will permit me. He does not make new points; I have friend for giving way, but it would be invalid under the them on board; I will try to address them, but I think Parliament Act for this House to express a view and we should go through the logical steps of exactly what vote on taxes within the United Kingdom. the construct will be, because this is a critical question. I do not dismiss it. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am not a constitutional Why is it so important? The power will enable the lawyer, but those who drafted the Bill, who are quite whole of an existing tax to be devolved and allows for clear about the centrality of this to the new constitutional the creation of a completely new devolved tax. That is settlement embodied here, are clear that it is a proper clear. It is a power recommended by Calman but power to be exercised in the way intended under the which the Government are not in a position to devolve Bill. at this time so, to that extent, it is necessary to implement If noble Lords will forgive me, I would like to go Calman. through all the steps. As I said, this is a construct with a number of elements to it and we should look at it in Lord Sewel: Does the noble Lord accept that there the round. It comes to the heart of the issue that was are fundamental differences between using orders and principally raised in detail by the noble Lord, Lord Sewel. using primary legislation? One of those fundamental There is a technical issue relating to the noble differences is that an order cannot be amended. I Lord’s amendment which we should get out of the should have thought that, on the creation of new way: the amendment would also impact on the provisions taxes, it is likely that Parliament might wish to amend which allow for devolution of taxes on disposals to such an order when it comes before it. landfill and on transfers of land. The effect would be to prevent the Scottish Government collecting and Lord Sassoon: Again, perhaps I may be permitted managing such taxes or entering into agency arrangements to go through the complete steps needed to introduce with others to collect and manage the taxes for them. any new tax. This would be critical if the Scottish Government The Government believe that we have a proportionate were to be able to exercise their new tax powers and appropriate package. We need to take all the effectively. I park that on one side but it is not an measures in the round. In this case, to address the unimportant question. specific question of the role of your Lordships’ House—I I now turn to the central question of the power to will not be drawn into taking all the points out of devolve new taxes. I shall go through this in a way that order, but the question of the role of the House of I hope will give noble Lords some assurances that Lords is important—it is because the power addresses sufficient and proportionate safeguards are in place to 1259 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1260 ensure that this power is exercised to the benefit of decides to create completely new taxes—perhaps putting the UK as a whole. I should also like to explain its up the top rate of tax to 60 per cent or removing the importance in raising the accountability of the Scottish exemption for unearned income or whatever—does Parliament. There are those who are clearly concerned my noble friend really think that it will be practical that the power goes too far but there are others who politics for this House or even the other place to say believe that the power does not go far enough. In the that that is not going to happen because under criterion middle, we have the noble Lord, Lord Browne of 4C it will influence macroeconomic policy? That is not Ladyton, who wants more assurance on the criteria. real politics. A genie is being let out of the bottle here First, I come back to the central authority that and we should not deceive ourselves about how radical would be needed for new devolved taxes to be added. this is as a proposal. I hope that my noble friend will They would need to be added by Order in Council, address this for what it is and not for how it is which would be subject to the type A procedure set presented. out in Schedule 7 to the Scotland Act. It is clear that this requires that no recommendation can be made to Lord Sassoon: My Lords, my noble friend’s examples Her Majesty in Council until a draft has been laid concern changing the rates of existing taxes rather before, and approved by, both Houses of Parliament than new taxes. However, I think that it will work fine. and by the Scottish Parliament. Therefore, there will With the process that has led up to these clauses in the be thorough scrutiny of any proposals under this Bill, Calman has looked at potential taxes for devolution. power, including the opportunity for Members of this There has already been considerable discussion in House to debate fully any such proposals. Scotland and between Scotland and the UK Government. What did not get so much attention in this debate When it comes to the potential for new taxes to be were the criteria to be adopted when looking at any added, I have explained the criteria which the UK new tax. This was a point on which the noble Lord, Government have set down. On procedure, we are Lord Browne, focused his remarks but other speakers working closely with the Scottish Government to clarify seem not to have taken full account of these criteria. the process that requests for new taxes will go through They are laid out clearly in the Command Paper that before they are brought before both Houses of Parliament. accompanies the Bill. I believe that they set a clear We have an administrative process to be agreed by the framework of guidelines as to how the Government Joint Exchequer Committee, which brings together will consider the impact of any new tax proposed by Ministers from both Governments. Therefore, I see a the Scottish Parliament and hence decide whether to process here— devolve it. For the avoidance of doubt, perhaps I may read out the criteria. They will include the potential Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: With all these discussions for the new tax to create or incentivise economic that have taken place, can the Minister tell the Committee distortions and arbitrage within the UK; the potential whether the Scottish Government have accepted these that the new tax might create for tax avoidance across provisions in the Bill? the UK; the impact of the proposed tax on compliance burdens across the UK; and the compatibility of the new tax with EU legislation and rules, such as those Lord Sassoon: Of course we await legislative consent, covering state aid, the single market and the Human but there have been many detailed discussions; there Rights Act. Therefore, there will be a considerable have been the reports of committees in both Parliaments screening process before the Government decide to and the noble Lord knows perfectly well—better than propose any new devolved tax. I—where things stand. As to the question of what fits I stress that the foremost consideration here is the criteria, I am not going to speculate about what the need to ensure that any proposed tax will not future taxes might come forward, but one has the impose a disproportionately negative impact on UK useful case study about the Scottish land transaction macroeconomic policy or impede to any degree the tax which fits the criteria very well. That points out single UK market. Taxes will be judged against their precisely how other measures could come forward in potential to create or incentivise economic distortions future. or to generate avoidance or an impact on compliance burdens across the UK. It is those criteria that will Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: The Minister said this is give the Scottish Parliament the flexibility to adopt the following Calman: it is not following Calman at all. As policies that it considers to be best for Scotland, while the noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out, Calman preventing adverse effects on the rest of the UK. recommended a power to deal with specified taxes. Why is the Bill completely open-ended on the subject 8.15 pm of new taxes? If there are particular taxes that would Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Perhaps I may ask my fall within the criteria, why not say what they are noble friend to consider the politics of this, as opposed rather than leave it open-ended? My noble friend to what the rule book says. I suggest that we look at criticised me for giving an example of existing taxes; I the difficulty that the Government have at the moment could think of other examples. Suppose Mr Salmond in deciding whether to legislate on a referendum. That invents a new tax on oil and gas landed in Scotland, is clearly a matter for Westminster and not for the for example. One could think of all kinds of taxes, but Scottish Parliament but the Government are doing to present this as arising from Calman is completely cartwheels trying to find a way to use Section 30 wrong. Calman suggested a limited ability in respect because they do not want to be seen to be dictating to of those taxes which it was not appropriate to do at Scotland. If the Scottish Parliament, with this power, the moment for various technical reasons. The two 1261 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1262

[LORD FORSYTH OF DRUMLEAN] necessary. The Minister shakes his head. Perhaps he I would think of are air passenger duty, which is will address the two issues that I have raised in this actually not included in the Bill, and the aggregates intervention. The first was about criteria and process tax. This, however, is much, much broader and more translated into regulation. The second was a question: far-reaching. Why are we going for such an open-ended what is happening between the United Kingdom position? Government and the Scottish Government about preparing for the devolution of this power? Lord Sassoon: My Lords, recommendation 3.3 of the Calman report states: Lord Sassoon: I think that the noble Lord made at “The Scottish Parliament should be given a power to legislate least three points. The first concerned the degree of with the agreement of the UK Parliament to introduce specified scrutiny in another place. It highlights the very valuable, new taxes that apply across Scotland”. indeed essential, role that this House customarily plays. In Calman, certain taxes were specified. In this Bill, we It is no different with this Bill. Of course, there was are building on that and building in a procedure which committee scrutiny as well as scrutiny in the formal is proportionate and would require the agreement of stages of the Bill. both Parliaments in future to deal with specified taxes— taxes that might be specified in future. I have explained Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords— to the Committee what the criteria are. We have an amendment that sought to tease out what they are and I explained them. The critical one relates to the Lord Sassoon: Perhaps I may answer the questions macroeconomic effect. It is entirely right that we take that the noble Lord has already raised. the Calman recommendation and think about how there might be new taxes to be specified in future. It is Lord Browne of Ladyton: I refer to scrutiny and not some open-ended invitation for the Scottish Parliament point out, again with some diffidence to the noble to introduce things. There are very clear safeguards, Lord, that this is a constitutional Bill. Everything that including an appropriate parliamentary procedure in happened in relation to the Bill happened on the Floor London. of the other place. The Bill went into Committee there. It was timetabled by the Government and many Lord Browne of Ladyton: I intervene with some of these provisions were not debated. trepidation in this fashion because I made clear in my remarks in this debate that I seek to support this Bill. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I will not stand here and However, the noble Lord is making it more difficult criticise or question the way that another place goes for me to support this Bill for a few reasons which about its business. We are now giving the Bill—and I will explain, because I want to pose a significant this clause in particular—appropriate scrutiny, and I question to him. First, he said in his introductory will take as long as I need to give appropriate answers remarks—which I passed over but I come back to—that to the questions that were raised. these matters were specifically debated and passed by the other place. He should be careful about deploying that argument, given the paucity of debate there was Lord McFall of Alcluith: I refer to the contributions on any of these provisions in the other place because made already. Under the Bill, could the Scottish they were timetabled. Quite large chunks of this Bill Parliament reduce corporation tax and increase taxes were never scrutinised at all. on oil and gas? Secondly, he has repeatedly characterised my amendment—which I will not press this evening—as Lord Sassoon: If the Scottish Government came seeking further and better explanation. It is actually forward with new tax proposals, they would have to not: it is seeking a part of a construct which translates meet the criteria that I laid out, which would include what he has said on criteria and mechanism—which provisions on the macroeconomic effect. Clear criteria he says is good and is in the White Paper and the are set out and it would not be sensible for the Scottish Command Paper and was in the evidence of the Government to come forward with tax proposals that Secretary of State—into regulations that this House did not meet the criteria. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, and this Parliament can debate and decide upon. That asked whether the criteria should be enshrined in is different. some way. It strikes an appropriate balance to have Thirdly, he encourages us to believe that the construct them clearly set out in the Command Paper. of co-operation between the Scottish and UK Governments that has been put in place is already Lord Sewel: My Lords— starting to address some of these issues. The joint Exchequer committee that he refers to has met once, on 27 September, which was after the Second Reading Lord Sassoon: I will give way in a moment. Perhaps debate in this House. This was an issue that I raised on I may try to answer some other questions first. The Second Reading; his noble and learned friend the criteria are clearly set out and it is appropriate— Advocate General for Scotland sent me a detailed letter about what happened about these co-operative Lord Sewel: On this point, the noble Lord, Lord processes, but they are not functioning at all. They are Forsyth, mentioned on a number of occasions the real barely functioning and no significant progress is being politics of the Bill. Following my noble friend Lord made in relation to the co-operative work that is McFall, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether he is 1263 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1264 aware of the phrase, “It’s Scotland’s oil”, and of how Lord Sassoon: I am not going to give way immediately potent that would be in any debate if the Scottish to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, because Government brought forward an oil tax. that would be discourteous to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, one of whose questions I have Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am not sure that it is not yet addressed. I have a short memory so I would profitable to speculate about what, at some time in the rather answer the questions that I have had before future, a Scottish Government might come forward permitting another intervention. The third question with. I have set out that there are clear criteria that the asked by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, was about UK Government will use to screen proposals. It is very what progress was being made in the discussions. The important that the criteria are clear to the Scottish joint Exchequer committee agreed that it should meet Government—and they are. Secondly—I will give way twice a year, so the fact that it met in September means in a moment to the noble Lord, Lord McFall—it is that a further meeting is anticipated later in the spring. also appropriate that they are set out, as they are, in a Command Paper, which will give flexibility as Noble Lords: Oh! circumstances change. The criteria are fundamental Lord Sassoon: I listen to all the guffawing going on, and clear. but many noble Lords have been in government here and there and will know that there is much good and Lord McFall of Alcluith: Perhaps I may intervene important work that can and must be done to make again. I do not have a clue about what the Minister’s such meetings effective. That is what is going on, and answer to my question was. Corporation tax has been good progress is being made, including on the process a big issue in Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is a for introducing a new tax under this Bill. contemporary issue in Scotland. I put it to the Minister again: could the Scottish Government come forward Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: The question I asked is with proposals to reduce corporation tax and increase so important on this issue because the Minister himself oil and gas taxes? I ask for a simple yes or no answer. said this issue is the central part of the Bill. I thought of this months ago when I asked, in a Question to the Lord Sassoon: The answer is a very simple yes. They noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, could come forward with such a proposal, and the why we were going ahead with the Bill. It has become Government would judge it against the criteria. If it obvious that a huge coach and horses has been driven met the criteria, it would then go through the procedure through a central plank of the Bill by the noble Lord, of the two Houses of Parliament. Lord Forsyth, and my noble friend Lord Sewel. The best information we have is that the Scottish 8.30 pm Parliament is going to reject the Bill. It is, you can shake your head as long as you like, Jim—sorry, Lord Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I have a summary of the Wallace. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord can tell majority and the minority reports of the Scotland Bill us what indications he has that the Scottish Government Committee of the Scottish Parliament. The Minister are going to accept this Bill as it is currently framed, if will know that the majority report recommended that, we agree it. “the Scotland Bill be amended to devolve the full range of financial powers to the Scottish Parliament”. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, forgive me if I stick to the I spoke with Linda Fabiani MSP just a couple of clause as we have it. It is a separate matter, which weeks ago and asked when this report was going to the relates to the whole Bill. I agree on the importance of Scottish Parliament, and she said not until after we this clause. Of course there needs to be agreement to have made a decision down here. the whole Bill in due course but what we are doing We have got deadlock on this. The Scottish Parliament today—we are not making a great deal of progress but will not consider this report until we have dealt with it is important and we should deal with these important this, and we know that it is going to recommend points—is trying to make sure that some of these something different. Surely, in view of all the criticism central clauses are got right. I do not know where the that we have had from both sides, and now from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, sees a coach and horses, opposition Front Bench, the Government would be because I have not seen one coming from my noble well advised at this very minute to take this whole Bill friend or anywhere else in this Chamber. away—we are going to look at it again next month—and I would suggest that not all the speakers in this reconsider this whole matter, after discussions with the debate have talked about all the elements of the process Scottish Executive about how it will be dealt with in by which a new tax would be introduced. I suggest that Scotland. Otherwise we will be in a stalemate. Members of this Committee might like to reflect on what the total package looks like. I believe that it is proportionate, including the criticality of those criteria Lord Sassoon: I thought that my agreement with which are appropriately laid out in the Command the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, would not Paper. Incidentally, when it comes to the ultimate last terribly long. This is a general point, which he agreement to any proposals that come forward for new could raise on every clause of this Bill. With all due taxes, I remind the Committee that when the variable respect, I really do not know what it has to do with Scottish rate of tax was introduced in 1998, it was of this clause in particular. course passed by this House, so we have precedent in relation to tax matters and Scotland on that variable Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Why— rate, and on this House having competence. 1265 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1266

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Will my noble friend potentially raise additional revenue. As well as assisting allow me one more go, at the risk of tedious repetition? policy-making in Scotland, the ability to propose tax Would my noble friend be happy if he thought that solutions will itself increase the accountability of the this power to invent new taxes was not circumscribed Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament, by the criteria, which, as he says, are set out in a which is of course the main purpose of the Bill. Command Paper, which of course can be altered, and The measures in Clause 28 will correct an anomalous which is not part of the legislation? If there were no situation whereby the Scottish Parliament can implement criteria there at all, would he be happy? If I suspect tax policy changes through only what Calman described that the answer to that question is no, does he not see as the backdoor of local authority taxation. At the that the political reality is that those criteria will moment, only local taxation is devolved to Scotland. matter not a jot in circumstances where this power is Calman noted that the current situation incentivises conferred on the Scottish Parliament? That is the nub the Scottish Parliament to achieve its policy aims of what is exercising people on both sides of the through local taxes even though they might be more House. effectively achieved through devolving taxes which are I do not mean this in any patronising way, but my reserved. Again, it is important that we reflect on that noble friend has had a very distinguished career in the point. Civil Service and in banking. All of us have got battle Not only that, but introducing makeshift local taxes scars from Scottish politics and know how it operates. in lieu of the power to raise them nationally would He should take the fact that we all agree on this as a mean that the UK Government and this Parliament clear signal that these criteria that he is hanging on to would have no power to intervene even if there were will not exist in real politics if he proceeds in the way implications for the wider UK tax system. The powers that he plans. granted here would at least allow for a discussion of new taxes between Holyrood and Westminster that in Lord Sassoon: My Lords, while I am not steeped in many cases could result in better outcomes for both as many years of Scottish politics, maybe the benefit Scotland and the wider United Kingdom. of being a bit of an outsider and coming at this with Although I suspect that we may come back to this fresh eyes means that I am able to observe a little of matter in more detail in later clauses, I want to address the history of this. Notwithstanding the attempt to say in headline terms the question of my noble friend that tax proposals have not been brought forward in Lord Lang of Monkton on whether Scotland will be any way that has had discussion and consensus to better off or not. I know that there are questions date, including the ones that are the subject of this about what the evidence from the past shows and how Bill, the history gives me confidence that this is a much credence should be given to that past analysis. construct that will work. This is based on what we But in simple terms, Scotland will be better off under have seen in the devolution of powers to Scotland to the proposed arrangement if tax receipts grow faster date, and in the process that has led up to where we are than public spending than they would under the current with this Bill—which is not perfect and so other block grant system and vice versa. It is not possible to critical steps must be gone through. I do not see this say exactly what the impact will be but the key point is obstacle that my noble friend is putting up. However, that this Bill delivers accountability to the Scottish we will have to agree to differ on that. Parliament and not a guaranteed financial settlement.

Lord Sewel: I am grateful to the Minister. In citing Lord Lang of Monkton: I believe that the prediction the creation of the Scottish variable rate for income my noble friend just quoted is for the five years from tax in the Scotland Act 1998, is not the Minister 2010 to 2015. I do not believe that but I accept that actually supporting my argument that the creation of that is a Treasury view. However, the powers under new taxes and new powers ought to be through primary this Bill will not come into force until about 2015. If legislation? my noble friend believes that the Scottish National Party, the Scottish Executive, are keen to have these Lord Sassoon: No; the point I made was that it went tax powers, which we have been debating extensively through this House, as would an order as envisaged this evening, simply in order to cut them, I cannot here. Any number of points can be made. The principal agree with him on that either. The fact is that they have point I addressed was the question of whether this vast ambitions for increased public expenditure. My House would be circumvented in some way by the argument is that they will have to increase taxation not introduction of a proposal for new taxes for Scotland. just to increase expenditure but to keep the standard The answer is: unequivocally not, whether by an order of living and government expenditure in the same or by primary legislation. place. I would like to move on, because I have now laid out the full process here. It is important to register Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the directional effect that again the question of accountability, and the importance I have set out for the effect of what is proposed in this of the new accountability for the Scottish Government Bill compared to the current arrangements is clear. that is given here in the proposal that, for the first The question that people have is, on particular projections time, the Scottish Parliament will have the facility—with of growth and spending, what the effect would be. Of the approval of this Parliament—to set new taxes. It course, it is possible to give only the worked example means that the Scottish Government will be able to of growth and spending based on the current spending find ways to deliver their desired policy outcomes and settlement round and the current projections of the 1267 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Health and Social Care Bill 1268

Office for Budget Responsibility. There is no question Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, such is my that you can forecast for one period or any other respect for my noble friend Lord Howe, who has been period. It entirely depends on the assumptions you waiting patiently, that I am not planning to respond to want to make about the performance of the Scottish some of the points. I am most grateful to my noble economy and the policy decisions made by the Scottish friend the Minister who has dealt with some pretty Government about expenditure. intensive questioning very well, although I have to say The key point I come back to is that it transfers a that he has not satisfied me. significant amount of responsibility and accountability I shall just pick up on the last point he made. He for this balance to the Scottish Parliament, which of presents me as saying that this has all come as a course is fully accountable to its electors. That really surprise to people. I have to say that I think that what goes to the absolute heart of what we are talking this clause actually does has come as a surprise to about and it is why I am grateful to my noble friend for people in this Chamber, and it will certainly come as a drawing attention to the point. surprise to Members of the House of Commons because I think that I should bring this discussion to a they never discussed it properly. That is what we are conclusion— here for, and I think that there is more to be done. Of course there is still an opportunity in the debate on whether Clause 29 should stand part to explore these Lord Steel of Aikwood: Earlier I was justly chastised arguments further. by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for calling this a On the basis that I am not satisfied with the response, small matter. As the Minister says, it is significant, but none the less I do not propose to test the opinion of does he accept that it is still light years away from what the Committee. I am pleased to withdraw the amendment. the noble Lords, Lord Kerr, Lord Foulkes, and I were talking about earlier, and which we hope might become a future Bill? It would get rid of all this overriding Amendment 51ZA withdrawn. supervision by the two Houses here and simply say to the Scottish Parliament, “You raise the money that Amendments 51A to 51C not moved. you spend”. Clause 28 agreed. 8.45 pm House resumed. Committee to begin again not before Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I come back to where I 9.40 pm. started, which is that it is the Government’s position that we have a Bill that is appropriate in the current circumstances. There should be a referendum with a Health and Social Care Bill clear question about independence. When that is out Statement of the way, there may be other questions to be asked. For the moment, however, the Government believe 8.50 pm that what is being proposed in this Bill is appropriate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department to the circumstances we are in. My noble friend Lord of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, I shall now repeat as Forsyth of Drumlean suggests that this whole thing a Statement the Answer given by my right honourable has come out of thin air and has no support from friend the Secretary of State for Health to an Urgent anyone. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, Question tabled in another place earlier today about explained the genesis of it and I have said a bit more the Health and Social Care Bill. The Statement is as about Calman. The Scottish Affairs Committee has follows: welcomed the provision to devolve new taxes and the accompanying criteria, and they have been welcomed “Mr Speaker, I am glad to have this opportunity by both the previous and the more recent Scotland Bill again to set out the purposes of the Health and Social Committees of the Scottish Parliament and by the Care Bill. It is to give patients more information and Scottish Government. It is therefore completely wrong choice, so that they share in decision-making about to suggest that they have come out of a clear blue sky their care. It empowers front-line doctors and nurses and have no support—before my noble friend chastises to lead the delivery of care for their patients. It cuts me, I do not think that that is a mischaracterisation of out two tiers of bureaucracy, and strengthens the his position. voice of patients and the role of local government in integrating services and strengthening public health. Finally, Clause 28 will provide powers to the Scottish Government to enable greater fiscal responsibility and The values of the Bill are simple: putting patients increase the accountability of the Scottish Government first, trusting doctors and nurses, focusing on results and the Scottish Parliament. It grants both Governments for patients, and maintaining the founding values of the flexibility to negotiate the best possible solutions the NHS. We are constantly looking to reinforce those for Scotland and for the whole of the United Kingdom. values, strengthening the NHS to meet the challenges At the same time, we believe that proportionate and it faces. We know change is essential: we will not let sufficient safeguards exist to ensure that powers to the NHS down by blocking change. devolve new taxes will not unduly damage the coherence Throughout the development and progress of this of the UK tax system and the single UK market. I Bill, we have engaged extensively with NHS staff, the therefore propose that Clause 28 should stand part of public and parliamentarians. The Health and Social the Bill and I urge my noble friend to withdraw his Care Bill is the most scrutinised public Bill in living amendment. memory. With over 200 hours of debate between the 1269 Health and Social Care Bill[LORDS] Health and Social Care Bill 1270

[EARL HOWE] It is not clear to me whether the Minister in the two Chambers and 35 days in Committee, we have Commons, or even Conservative MPs, will do so as ensured that Members and Peers have had every well. Remarkable! opportunity to examine, understand and amend the I appreciate that it may be difficult for the Minister Bill to ensure it does the best possible job for patients. to answer this question, but I am going to ask it We have made this legislation better and stronger. anyway. How exactly does he think that the Liberal We have made significant changes to the Bill, including Democrats propose to achieve this target set by Mr Clegg in response to the NHS Future Forum’s work and we in this House when they are part of a coalition wedded will be open to any further changes that will improve to this Bill in all its glory—and Part 3, too—and the or clarify the Bill. For example, so far in the Lords, the Lib Dems command 70 to 80 votes in the House on a Government have accepted amendments tabled by a good day? Who will deliver Mr Clegg’s amendments number of Cross-Bench, Liberal Democrat and Labour to Part 3 of the Bill, I wonder? Will it be done by Peers. consent with the Government or will it be by Division? Yesterday, my right honourable friend the Deputy I would like to ease Mr Clegg’s dilemma in this Prime Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, matter and make a very generous offer. The Liberal wrote to their Liberal Democrat colleagues explaining Democrats can have our amendments to Part 3 of this their support for the Bill with those changes and some Bill. We have a great set of amendments to Part 3 further amendments they wish to see. They said, for which would serve to deliver what Mr Clegg and the example, how we must, noble Baroness, Lady Williams, say that they seek on ‘rule out beyond doubt any threat of a US-style market in the competition and, indeed, more. So I look forward to NHS’. the Minister’s response to my offer. I wholeheartedly agree. However odd the mode of delivery, it is important The Bill is about quality, not competition on price. to ask whether this is a major announcement of a It will not permit any NHS organisation to be taken change in government policy and, indeed, was the text over by the private sector. It will put patients’ interests of the letter discussed with and agreed by No. 10 and first. We will not permit any extension of charging. Mr Andrew Lansley? This development has added to Care will be free and based on need. Where the doctors the considerable confusion about what government and nurses on the ground know that competition is in policy around the Bill is exactly, and I think that the best interests of their patients and where it is based Ministers need urgently to clarify what precise changes entirely on the quality of the care and treatment are being proposed, what discussions have been held provided and not in any way on the price of that care with the Deputy Prime Minister and whether these and treatment, then competition can play an important policy changes now represent government policy. I ask role in driving up standards throughout the NHS. this because we know that Mr Clegg has to manage We will not see a market free-for-all or a US-style the challenge of the Lib Dem spring conference—and insurance system in this country. I believe in the NHS. a challenge it is certainly shaping up to be. According I am a passionate supporter of our NHS. That is why I to today’s media, the Liberal Democrat health activists understand the passionate debate it arouses. But it is are planning to put an emergency motion to the also why I resent those on the Benches opposite who party’s spring conference urging their leadership to seek to misrepresent the NHS, its current achievements reject the provisions of the NHS reform Bill despite, and future needs. presumably, the final changes advanced by Mr Clegg and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, in this joint We are using the debates in the Lords further to letter. Certainly this letter and that conference, combined reassure all those who care about the NHS. I am with the growing tumult against the Bill—another grateful for the chance to reassure all my honourable royal college might bite the bullet and say that it wants friends in the House of the positive and beneficial effects the Bill to be withdrawn again; I think that there are of debate in the House of Lords, and of the work we only about two more to go—put the discussions that are doing to secure a positive future for the NHS”. we will have on Part 3 in your Lordships’ House next My Lords, that concludes the Statement. week in an interesting light. This is an odd way to develop and announce policy—or Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I thank the Minister is it shift in policy? Yesterday morning, the Minister, for that Statement. We are in a slightly odd situation Simon Burns, was insisting the whole Government here. We have a letter from the Deputy Prime Minister backed the Bill “as amended now”. At the same time and a distinguished Member of your Lordships’ House sources close to Mr Clegg, whoever they may be, were to MPs and Peers in their party concerning a matter of insisting the changes that he is demanding are, public policy involving a major piece of legislation “significant and not simply reassurances”. currently before this House. I thought that we could However, at the same time the PM’s spokesperson not be further surprised by the parliamentary twists said, and turns of this Bill, but it is really a case of “Whatever next?”. Is it the first time that a serving Deputy Prime “we do not see any need for further significant changes to the Bill”. Minister has decided to send a letter suggesting amendments to his own Government’s legislation? We need to know which of these is correct. I hope that This letter seems largely to concern Mr Clegg saying the noble Earl will be able to enlighten the House. that he wants more amendments to the Bill and expects This letter states that, this House to deliver them so that Liberal Democrat “we want to rule out beyond doubt any threat of a US-style MPs can support the said amendments in the Commons. market in the NHS. That is why we want to see changes made to 1271 Health and Social Care Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Health and Social Care Bill 1272 this bill that have been put forward by our Liberal Democrat team the rock of Andrew Lansley and the hard place of the in the House of Lords to make sure that the NHS can never be noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Williams, and treated like the gas, electricity, or water industry”. their colleagues—probably not a comfortable place to That is exactly what I have been saying all the way be. Actually, this is not the way to treat Parliament through this Bill. The letter proposes four broad changes. and its consideration of this Bill. It is not the way to The first is that we should remove the reviews by the treat the people who work so hard for the NHS and, Competition Commission from the Bill. In fact, indeed, it is not the way to treat our NHS. amendments to that effect where tabled by the Labour Party. Imitation being the greatest form of flattery, I 9.04 pm am very happy that the Liberal Democrats are tabling Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Baroness said that them again. Secondly, the letter suggests that we keep she was surprised by the letter in question. I can tell the independent regulator for foundation trusts, Monitor, her that nothing in the letter was in any way a surprise “to make sure hospitals always serve NHS patients first and to me, for the simple reason that it reflects the very foremost.”. constructive discussions that I have had with my Liberal Well, hurrah! We have an amendment down that does Democrat colleagues, which are a natural part of good exactly that. Thirdly, the letter proposes to, government. I can only conclude that she does not “introduce measures to protect the NHS from … threat of takeover recognise that such discussions are a part of good from US-style healthcare providers by insulating the NHS from government, but it certainly is the case with the coalition. the full force of competition”. As far as I am concerned, Mr Clegg needs no permission Mr Clegg might just have noticed the threat that to bring members of his party up to date with progress competition posed when he signed this Bill a year ago. on the Bill or to make it clear, as he does, that he is Finally, it proposes, fully behind it. “additional safeguards to the private income cap to make sure The noble Baroness asked about the changes that that foundation trusts cannot focus on private profits before patients”. Mr Clegg and my noble friend Lady Williams have Well, the amendments that the Liberal Democrats outlined in the letter that they would like to see. I have promoted so far on this certainly need some simply direct the noble Baroness’s attention to the thought and some change. We would agree with them Marshalled List for the Bill; there are a number of and we shall see. This is all familiar to us on the amendments already tabled and discussions continue Labour side, because those proposals were part of the on a number of other issues. Are the changes that have substance of our amendments in Committee which been made significant? I say to her that any amendments were so soundly and roundly rejected by the Minister. we accept are significant, and the amendments made Is he about to resile from his earlier position and to the Bill are largely about reassurance to those noble embrace the Labour amendments? I would appreciate Lords who are unclear, uncertain or worried about the some notice if that is what he intends to do. Bill and what it says. They are about delivering greater clarity and making sure that the Bill delivers on its I have a few questions. The document issued at the intentions. I have been very happy to accommodate Conservative away day last Friday said: the concerns of Peers of all parties who have come “If we changed or altered the bill now, we would end up in a to speak to me—not simply my Liberal Democrat no man’s land, and chaos”. colleagues—because the function of this House is to Can the Minister confirm that this is still the Government’s make Bills better, and we are certainly doing that with position? Can he clarify whether the changes outlined the Health and Social Care Bill. A prime example of in the Deputy Prime Minister’s letter now represent that, surely, was the fruitful discussion that we had government policy? His letter promises, across the party divide on the Secretary of State’s “additional safeguards to the private income cap”. powers and duties, and I believe that the resolution of Can the Minister explain what these additional safeguards that matter was very satisfactory. are, and why the Deputy Prime Minister feels that they With regard to the issues themselves, it would not are necessary? Why does the Secretary of State seem be appropriate for me to give a running commentary. to have no regard for the views of health professionals The place for debate on each issue is surely our debates and the public when it comes to making changes to on Report. We are in the middle of the Bill; we should this health Bill, but is quite happy to make concessions not attempt to engage in substantive discussion on to accommodate the Liberal Democrats before their matters of policy now when we still have four more spring conference? Will the Minister clarify whether days of Report ahead of us. We are open to constructive these amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill discussions with Peers of any party to make the Bill are “significant”, as stated by the Deputy Prime Minister, better, just as we listened, contrary to the assertion of or a “reassurance”, as stated by the Prime Minister’s the noble Baroness, to members of the public and official spokesperson? members of the medical profession in their thousands In 2009, the Prime Minister said: during the listening exercise last year. We listened, “There will be no more of those pointless re-organisations paused, reflected and amended the Bill extensively. I that aim for change but instead bring chaos”. am sure that the noble Baroness knows that nothing It seems to me that the Secretary of State has seen a has changed in that respect, and my door is open to clear example of unmitigated chaos in the latest her as it is to anyone else. incarnation of his Health and Social Care Bill. Really, this is a most unloved and unwanted piece of legislation 9.07 pm and the Bill should be dropped. In conclusion, the Baroness Jolly: My Lords, I thank the Minister for Minister has my deepest sympathy in dealing with this his ever-open door and his willingness to listen. Will Statement, because it seems that it puts him between he further explain to the House how he believes that 1273 Health and Social Care Bill[LORDS] Health and Social Care Bill 1274

[BARONESS JOLLY] see delivered to patients. From all the comments that the NHS will be stronger for the scrutiny from all sides I have heard from doctors and others who are in doubt of the House? How does he believe that the objections about the Bill, most of their concerns revolve around of the Royal Colleges, such as the Royal College of its implementation and what it will mean in practice, Nursing, the BMA and other professional bodies have rather than the principles that it enshrines. We need to been met as a result of this cross-party scrutiny? look forward collectively and work together to make the NHS work better. Earl Howe: My Lords, I completely agree with my noble friend. I feel that the debate and discussions that Baroness Meacher: My Lords, I, too, applaud the we have had in your Lordships’ House have made this noble Earl for the way that he handles this very a better Bill, as I said a moment ago. Again, a prime difficult Bill in very difficult circumstances. I am sure example of that is the clauses relating to ministerial he is aware that there is a lot of concern about the Bill accountability. With regard to the Royal Colleges, we in the field of mental health, particularly as private have made all sorts of improvements, such as those in provision gathers pace. Can he give any assurance to response to concerns about the integration of services, mental health professionals and services up and down education and training, research, health inequalities, the country about what in the Bill might protect ensuring that competition is never an end in itself and mental health services in the future? a number of other important issues. I am glad that these changes were all welcomed by a wide range of Royal Colleges. Earl Howe: Several things in the Bill are new. One is the duty to reduce health inequalities, which is very Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, in the light of important in mental health. Another is the duty to what the Minister has just said, if I came to him over promote integration of services. Again, we have had the next couple of days and handed him a document many debates on that and there are mechanisms that about the problems that it is felt will be experienced in we propose to use to support greater integration of specialist services, would he then deal with it before services. the completion of Report and let me have an answer? I also believe that the worries about competition are misplaced. Competition is a tool that commissioners Earl Howe: I would be happy to talk to the noble can use, or decide not to use, in the interests of patients. Lord about specialised services, and I speak as the It is no more than that. The Bill does not change Minister in charge of that policy area. If he would like competition law or increase the scope for competition to contact my office, I would be very glad to see him. to be used in the NHS. It leaves the decision-making to commissioners on whether competition does or does not serve the interests of patients. There is a lot of Lord Crisp: My Lords, like, I suspect, every other misapprehension about what the Bill does, not just Member of your Lordships’ House, I very much respect among those in the mental health world but more the way in which the Minister has handled the Bill and widely. I hope that that reassurance is helpful. his willingness to engage in debate. I sit here as a Cross-Bencher listening to what seems to be the healing of a rift between the coalition parties, if I may put it Baroness Williams of Crosby: I apologise to the like that, but I also see—my postbag is full of this, as Minister for being the cause of another late night for I’m sure everyone else’s is—a rift with the medical him. I apologise because, obviously, the Statement profession, the nursing profession, midwives and others. relates to some extent to the letter that I co-signed Even though this approach may deal with some of the with the Deputy Prime Minister. I simply say, as have issues that they have wished to raise, I do not see that it many in the House, that the Minister has shown will deal with the much more fundamental issue of the amazing patience. Indeed, his door is always open; a loss of trust and unity that seems to have been created number of us stumble our way through it and we are as part of the passage of the Bill. Can the Minister say extremely grateful. something about how he believes that that will be I shall say just two more things about the point handled? These issues go far beyond your Lordships’ raised by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp. First, a great House, as we all understand. deal of the concern that has been expressed in public was expressed before some of the very recent changes, Earl Howe: The noble Lord is right. The stance which are not widely realised or well understood among taken by a number of medical bodies and members of the public or the media. the medical profession is of course a matter of great Secondly, it is probably fair to say that Chapter 3 regret to me and my ministerial colleagues. I say to has been the centre of much of the concern about the them and to the noble Lord that once the Bill has been Bill. There are other things in it that many people will approved by Parliament, as I sincerely hope it will be, widely recognise and accept, not least the work on that will be the time to re-engage with the medial education, training and research. This is not yet widely profession and work with it to ensure that the Bill known, even within the medical profession. It may be delivers on the promise that we have held out for it and that there is a great deal to be said for making a that we still believe in. The principles that the Bill further attempt to get across exactly what changes embodies, which the medical profession has always have been made to the Bill. I think that would carry said that it supports, can then be given substance in with it a rather different attitude among the public and the form of the improvements that we would like to the media from what has existed in the past few weeks. 1275 Health and Social Care Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Health and Social Care Bill 1276

Earl Howe: I am very grateful to my noble friend in a party leader wishing to address his parliamentary and agree with everything that she said. Many of the colleagues on the eve of a party conference to bring changes that the Government have made to the Bill—not them up to date on a major Bill and its progress in the just those made in your Lordships’ House but those House and to set out some of the remaining concerns that were made last year—have not been fully appreciated, that he has that we need to settle. These concerns came or appreciated at all in some quarters. The changes as no news to me as I have been talking about them that we have made are not sufficiently understood regularly not only with Liberal Democrat colleagues even by those who recognise that amendments have but with other Members of your Lordships’ House been made to the Bill. Without naming names, I have and members of the medical profession. I see nothing spoken to very senior members of the medical profession amiss in the letter spelling out those concerns. How we who have had no idea at all about some of the arrive at a resolution of those issues is yet to be seen. amendments that we have made to bring greater clarity As I have said, amendments have already been tabled to the Bill and change it substantively. As my noble which we shall debate. It is possible that more will be friend knows, we did that in particular with Part 3 of tabled over the days ahead—I do not rule that out at the Bill. There is no doubt that there is a job of work all. However, the noble Lord should not forget that to do to put over the correct messages to the medical there are non-legislative ways of reaching the destination profession and to reassure its members that this Bill that some of my noble friends would like to get to. does not represent a threat to them or to the NHS—quite There are many ways of achieving some of these the reverse. objectives. It is entirely possible that we shall agree amendments to do that but that is not by any means the only course open to us. Lord Patel: My Lords, although many of the comments that have been made relate to amendments that have yet to be presented to the House, particularly to Part 3 Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am a little confused of the Bill relating to competition, does the Minister about all this, and I wonder if my noble friend the agree that there are other amendments relating to other Minister can help me. I received the letter yesterday. parts of the Bill that are of broad concern to people At the top it stated, “Keep this completely secret and outside the House: namely, those relating to public do not tell anybody”. I switched on the television and health issues and how public health will be delivered, there it was. I am confused because I watched and and that we also need to address those amendments? listened to the exchanges in the House of Commons this afternoon, which, I have to say, were a great deal more vigorous and bad-tempered in many ways than Earl Howe: Of course, I acknowledge the point the exchanges here; and I congratulate the noble Baroness made by the noble Lord. It is a matter of regret to me on the Labour Front Bench who did a much better job that the commentary on the Bill hardly ever focuses on of responding on this matter than her colleagues in the proposals it makes for public health, which have the House of Commons. generally commanded widespread approval. However, I recognise that there are concerns around the detail of However, here we have the Labour Party, which in those proposals. That is why we are here as a Chamber government made major strides towards introducing to address those concerns. I am sure that when we competition, privatisation and commercialisation of come to the amendments referred to by the noble the health service, and now has been very strong Lord, this House will not be found wanting in the way indeed in opposing those matters when it comes to the that it explores those issues and resolves them. Bill. I do not understand that. The other thing that I do not understand is that if what the noble Baroness says is correct—that many of the things she and her Lord Martin of Springburn: The noble Earl has colleagues have been putting forward at Committee repeated a Statement made in the other House by a stage and have been saying outside this House are now Cabinet Minister responsible for health. We have also being put forward by Liberal Democrats in the heard mention of the Deputy Prime Minister supporting amendments that we were told about in the letter from the noble Baroness’s amendments. The Deputy Prime my noble friend and my party leader—why is she not Minister is clearly a Cabinet Minister. Therefore, we standing up and offering her help, with some enthusiasm, have two Cabinet Ministers in the picture. If everyone instead of being so grumpy about it all and the way in is so enthusiastic about the Liberal Democrat amendments which this has been done? There seems to be huge —the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, was kind enough confusion on the Opposition Front Bench and in the to tell us that those follow her proposals, and imitation opposition party, and I wonder if my noble friend can is the best form of flattery—does it mean that everybody suggest any gentle therapy that it might take up to is happy? However, the only piece of the jigsaw that help it with this problem. I am concerned about is whether that means that the Conservative Party will support the relevant amendments. If that is the case, they will all go through on the nod Earl Howe: I am very happy to pick up that challenge and everybody will be happy. Perhaps the noble Earl from my noble friend; in fact, I have been using all my can tell me whether I am wrong and I have missed charms and skills on the Benches opposite without something. any effect at all. I feel that I may have arrived at an impasse. My noble friend is absolutely right because the situation that we inherited from the previous Earl Howe: Far be it from me to say that the noble Government was in many ways one that we embraced—it Lord, Lord Martin, would ever miss anything; he is was they who opened up choice in the NHS and too wise a head for that. I see nothing strange or amiss indeed put a right of choice into the NHS constitution. 1277 Health and Social Care Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1278

[EARL HOWE] that, if we pass it, the Scottish Parliament and the However, they did not roll out competition and choice Scottish Government will accept all its provisions. I in the way that was appropriate and right, because it hope that that point can be dealt with. cannot be right to impose competition on the NHS My second point is one of which I gave the noble whether it wants it or not. It cannot be right for there Lord, Lord Sassoon, some intimation. The clause to be preferential prices for the private sector, with the mentions, NHS being disadvantaged. It cannot be right to have “amendments relating to the Commissioners for Revenue and an explicit target of increasing private sector provision Customs”. in the NHS, which is what the previous Government The noble Lord will be aware of the unfortunate had. It cannot be right for private providers to cherry-pick situation regarding Rangers Football Club, which is in the easy cases and leave the NHS with the hard cases. administration in Scotland, where Her Majesty’s Revenue We do not approve of fragmenting care pathways. and Customs is owed a substantial amount because of We do not think that the previous Government an arrangement that Rangers Football Club entered thought nearly hard enough about how this was all to into to avoid paying tax. It set up a scheme so that be regulated, which is why we want a sector-specific when its players received payment, it was paid not to health regulator. That is the reason for having Monitor them as salary but to a company set up for their and is why we think the provisions of Part 3 make advantage. As the noble Lord will be aware, as a result, sense because they are in the interests of patients and there is a major dispute between Rangers Football the NHS. I still hope that in our debates I can engender Club and the Revenue and Customs about whether some movement on the Benches opposite to recognise that money is due to the Revenue. that we are actually trying to improve the situation There have also been suggestions that the Scottish that we inherited for the benefit of everyone. Government might help Rangers Football Club in its difficulties. I make no comment about why that has 9.24 pm arisen, who is to blame or whether the Scottish Government would be wise under any circumstances Sitting suspended. to make any payments to help the club. All I am asking is: do any of the provisions in Clause 29 or elsewhere in the Bill change the arrangements in which Scotland Bill Rangers currently finds itself, or would the circumstances Committee (3rd Day) (Continued) be exactly the same after the Bill’s passage? Those are Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Delegated the only two points that I want to raise. Foolishly, we Powers Committee, 17th Report from the Constitution are pressing ahead with the Bill, but I take this opportunity Committee. to ask that question and, I hope, to get an answer in relation to Rangers Football Club. 9.40 pm 9.45 pm Debate on whether Clause 29 should stand part of the Lord Lyell: My Lords, I declare an interest as Bill. honorary patron of another Titan of the Scottish Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: As your Lordships will football game, which I call “Athletico Forfar”—Forfar see from the Marshalled List, I gave notice of my Athletic. I get a trifle worried when I hear outpourings attention to oppose the Question that Clause 29 stand in the media in Scotland along the lines that something part of the Bill. When I gave that notice, there was at must be done to help Rangers Football Club. A great least one good reason for doing so. There are now at football club it may be, but I wonder how it got into least three good reasons for doing so—perhaps more. that condition. The answer to that can wait, but perhaps I shall refer to only two. my noble friend could write to me with an answer to the following question. Why in the winding up of a The first has emerged from the debate that we just football club such as this—perhaps under Scottish had. Is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, insolvency law; I am not sure—is Her Majesty’s Revenue going to reply to this? Oh no, it is the poor noble Lord, and Customs not a preferred creditor? South of the Lord Sassoon. The noble and learned Lord, Lord border, HMRC is an ordinary creditor. However, I Wallace, will recall that many weeks ago I raised a had understood that north of the border HMRC was question about the wisdom of proceeding not just a preferred creditor and would therefore get the first with Clause 29 but with every clause, given what was bite in relation to the sums owing. If my noble friend happening elsewhere—given that the Bill and Calman could write to me on that at some stage, I should be had been overtaken by events. As I said in an intervention most grateful. I thank him for his patience. on the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, earlier, we now know that the Scottish Parliament will not be discussing either the majority or minority report from its committee Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, for all the until we have decided. The indication from the majority reasons that I set out in my first contribution to this of the committee—contrary to what was said from the Committee when it convened some time ago to consider Front Bench opposite earlier—is that it did not support the Bill, I want to see this Bill passed. Consequently, the provisions of the Bill but wanted it to go further. I support the devolution of the tax powers to the The minority supported it, but the majority wanted it Scottish Parliament and I want to see Clause 29 stand to go further. It seems daft to press ahead with the part of the Bill because, without that mechanism, the Bill, including Clause 29, until we have some indication amendments relating to the commissioners for Revenue 1279 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1280 and Customs will not be able to work. I do not intend for these issues than we will need if we are to meet the to delay the Committee with any debate or argument expectations that we all share that these devolved about what I think is genuinely a technical part of the powers will be available to be used for the benefit of Bill in terms of the mechanism for the implementation the Scottish people, broadly by about 2015. I do not of its provisions. expect the Minister to make any comments at the My second point is by way of a bit of advice to the Dispatch Box about willingness, but I would be able to noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, whom I welcomed to the deduce from the detail of his answers whether there Committee earlier. He had an interesting baptism in has been that willingness. the Committee. I am sure that he enjoyed the hour I raise this issue for one very good reason. There is that he was at the Dispatch Box engaging, as he did, an impression in Scotland that the Scottish Government with my noble and learned friends and noble Lords are anxious to get their hands on these additional around the Chamber. If he thought that that had a powers. In fact, they want more. It is not sufficient to distinct quality about it, then he ain’t seen nothing yet say to the Scottish people that you want these powers; if he succumbs to the invitation to engage in a discussion you have to explain to them what you are going to do about the position of Scottish football clubs. We have with them when you get them and you have to convince already had a reference to behaviour on the internet the Scottish people that you are preparing yourself for with cyberattacks and so on, but the nature of the these powers and for the use of them. I went on at comments that will be unleashed on the internet if he some length at the beginning of this Committee about is unwise enough to be attracted into debate and what I thought was happening in Scotland, and there discussion about the health or welfare of any Scottish was convincing evidence that the Scottish Government football club will be worse than he has ever seen. were falling down in all of those respects. Therefore, can the Minister tell the Committee not Lord Maxton: Does my noble friend agree that just how many times the high-level implementation perhaps that is why Mr Alex Salmond has decided that group has met but what progress is actually being he is switching his loyalties to rugby? made? Even if it has to be described generically, I will be satisfied by that, but I will keep pressing as long as this Bill is before this House to get more detail. What Lord Browne of Ladyton: Taking my own advice, I progress is being made to prepare the structure in am utterly reluctant to express any opinion that is even Scotland to receive these powers or any powers that marginally related to any football club in Scotland. relate to the raising of taxation? Most people in Scotland know where my allegiances lie, and engaging in this debate would make it even worse for me. I apologise to my noble friend Lord Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I apologise to the Foulkes, who has been engaged in Scottish football. Committee that I was not present through the earlier His support for Heart of Midlothian Football Club is parts of the discussion of Clause 29, but my noble well known and he has made an important contribution friend is making one of the most critical and crucial to Scottish football over the years. However, I think points in relation to these tax-raising powers. I would that he probably has more scars on his back from that be interested if, when the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, time than he has from any political confrontations in replies to him, he could put some figures on to the Scotland. I just give the Minister a bit of gratuitous costs of implementation. He will know well that one advice: he would be wise to take these matters away of the essential ingredients of analysing the effectiveness and perhaps write some very carefully worded letters of any taxation is the cost of collection. In this case, it to my noble friend and his noble friend if he thinks is not just the cost of collection that we need to know that these questions need answering. about; it is also the cost of disaggregation of HM Revenue and Customs and the cost to the overall UK I want to raise a point that I mentioned in my taxpayer, not just the Scottish taxpayer. If the noble contribution to the debate on the previous group of Lord does not have those figures available at the amendments. I do this by reference to my contribution moment, I would be grateful if he could give them to to the Second Reading of this Bill, which took place us in due course. on 6 September 2011. During my contribution to that debate, I asked about the progress of the high-level implementation group and the joint Exchequer committee, Lord Browne of Ladyton: My noble friend Lady which are complementary elements. The joint Exchequer Liddell—through me as a conduit—raises some very committee, led by Ministers, and the high-level group interesting questions for the noble Lord. I expect that, of civil servants—from both the Civil Service that because of the nature of the amendments in further supports the Scottish Executive and the UK Civil groups, we may get an opportunity to explore in more Service—are to work out the process and deal with detail the issue of the cost of implementation of these the challenges and issues in preparation for the provisions and of who should bear that cost. I will be implementation of the provisions that we have been interested to hear the Minister’s response to my noble debating when this Bill becomes an Act, as I hope friend’s very pertinent question. it will. I have dealt with the high-level implementation I raise this because I have a suspicion—and I put it group. I am interested not only in how often it meets no higher than that as I share my motivation with the but in what it does and in whether we are making Committee—that perhaps from the Scotland side of genuine progress toward creating the infrastructure this process of engagement there is less willingness to that will be necessary for Scotland to receive these engage, and less capacity to engage, in the preparation powers. I have said before that almost all members of 1281 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1282

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] Certainly, if the committee is not to meet again for the Scottish Government voted in the Scottish Parliament another six months, unless the high-level implementation for these tax-raising powers. Therefore, I expect them group is drilling down into some of these difficult to be at least beginning the process of consultation issues and starting to display a level of competence with the people of Scotland on how they intend to use and ability in dealing with the infrastructure that is them. If they are to be ready to use them by about necessary for implementing this, these meetings of the 2015, and if they are to give the people of Scotland a joint Exchequer committee are not going to make very level of consultation that devolution has conditioned much progress. Before this House gives its approval to them to expect, they should be beginning to draft the this Bill and it becomes an Act—I fervently hope that documentation to put before the Scottish people that it will and I will do everything in my power to achieve explains how they intend to use the powers. that—I ask of the Minister that at least we spend some It does not matter whether this is devo-plus or time getting some sense and some idea of whether devo-max. Whatever powers the Scottish Government Scotland, its Government and its Civil Service will be have in relation to tax, they should be getting ready in any shape to actually use these powers if and when to implement them. As I said earlier, there is an we pass them. extraordinarily interesting debate and discussion to be had in Scotland about how stamp duty land tax could 10 pm be used to help to inject energy into the economy in The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord different parts of Scotland. I am not an expert in these Sassoon): My Lords, this is proving to be an education, areas, but I know from representing for many years a not least because we have another debate in which constituency in Scotland that using taxation revenue there are some points on which I can see the direct in a more localised way at least has the potential to relevance to the clause we are discussing and a number generate economic activity. I would like this explored of other points on which I am struggling a bit. They further. If the debate and discussion reveal that it are all important points; I am just not quite clear what cannot be used in this way, at least that would be a the connection is with a clause that has to do with the conclusion. powers of HMRC. There are two aspects to this. First, there is the Of course, the football question is directly relevant, engagement between the UK and Scottish Governments and we must deal with football. I declare an interest and their respective civil servants on planning for this. here as a season ticket-holder of Arsenal Football Club Secondly, there is the question of fitness and preparation, —things are looking very good. and the condition that the Scottish Government are putting themselves in to exercise any devolved taxation Lord Maxton: The noble Lord might be aware that powers. I see no evidence of any of this in Scotland. Mr Ally McCoist, the manager of Rangers, was I turn to the joint Exchequer committee, about complaining bitterly because one of the things the new which the noble Lord and I have already had an owner of Rangers had done was to sell the shares in exchange. I asked about the committee at Second Arsenal Football Club which apparently Rangers had Reading and was told that it was anticipated that it held for a very long time. would meet for the first time on 27 September. My earlier intervention implied that I thought that that Lord Sassoon: There is another thing I have learnt was a bit late when one considered how long the this evening. I am very grateful to the noble Lord. process had been in gestation and how long the Bill I appreciate that this is very dangerous territory. spent in the other place and here—but I had to live The important point about the football is that this is a with that. The committee met on 27 September. The clause about the powers and duties of HMRC in noble Lord implied that when it met it made progress relation to Scottish affairs. I do not know whether the on some issues that were aired in the debate on the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, was trying to previous group of amendments, which dealt with some set a trap for me by getting me drawn into the tax of the challenges that people had identified. affairs of an individual taxpayer, because of course My information, which was provided very graciously the powers we are talking about here define, among by the Scotland Office, is that the committee met and other things, where information can be shared and there appeared to be some agreement on a set of what the limits are. If he was setting me a trap, I am principles on the block grant adjustment mechanism. doing my best not to walk into it—he was not setting Apparently, three principles were agreed that will apply me a trap, good. He will understand that I cannot to the mechanism for the adjustment. The first is possibly comment on the tax affairs of any individual fairness. It is not defined, but we all know what it taxpayer. I will simply say that there is nothing in the means. The second is resilience in different fiscal Bill that would change the circumstances of an circumstances. The third is the avoidance of unintended individual—or a company—who is overdue in paying consequences, including the transfer of resources one taxes to HMRC. way or another. It may be my fault, but the principles My noble friend Lord Lyell asked whether there do not tell me very much about the nature of the was a difference between preferred creditor and ordinary agreement. They smack a little of motherhood and creditor status between Scotland and the rest of the apple pie and do not seem to engage with some of the UK. I must confess that it is not an issue I have in the difficult and challenging issues that the devolution of front of my mind, and I will write to him. I am sure it tax powers to Scotland will inevitably generate, some is a very important question, not only for football of which we have already debated. clubs. 1283 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1284

Lord Lyell: Hear, hear! to be made at the implementation stage; and HMRC, HM Treasury, the Scotland Office, with the Scottish Lord Sassoon: I think that probably deals with all Government, will continue to work to determine the the football questions, and with probably just about optimal implementation approach. The costs may vary everything else that was directly relevant to this clause. in some way as those decisions are taken, but the I will try to deal with some of the other things. indicative estimate at the moment is £40 million to £45 million. We came back to the big picture question of the legislative consent Motion. It is of course for the Scottish Parliament to choose to bring forward the Motion Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I thank the noble at any time; it is in its discretion. It must be in the Lord for giving us that figure. Does that figure include Scottish Parliament’s interest to bring forward an the 31,000 civil servants in reserve departments who LCM before the last amending stage in this House to operate in Scotland, and the impact of the HMRC allow the House and the Government to reflect on the element of those 31,000? Will they continue to be in LCM, and if it wanted to it could choose to pass the Scotland? Could he also perhaps give an indication of legislative consent Motion tomorrow. where that cost will be levied? Will Scottish taxpayers or UK-wide taxpayers take up the cost of disaggregation? Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Would the Minister like to speculate on why it is not doing that? Why is it Lord Sassoon: My Lords, on the first point, this will deliberately delaying it? My speculation would be that be the cost in isolation of the changes necessary to it is playing a cat and mouse game with us, and that it enable the introduction of the Scottish income tax wants to see us move ahead without having to reveal provision. Of course, for fully devolved taxes, the cost its hand fully. Maybe a better analogy would be a will depend on decisions taken by Scottish Parliaments game of poker. This is not something that should be on the design of those taxes, and of course who the subject of a gamble. It is a very serious matter. should administer them. It is therefore a cost estimate Would he not join me in encouraging the Scottish that relates essentially to income tax. It assumes that Parliament to consider the legislative consent Motion nothing changes in the deployment of other people. It at a very early opportunity? is the necessary cost related to the introduction of the new Scottish income tax regime. As the noble Baroness Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I will certainly not be will know, it is a principle of devolution that costs that drawn into speculation. I have already said that it must are to the benefit of the devolved Administration fall be in the Scottish Parliament’s interest to pass the on the devolved Administration, so that is where these legislative consent Motion in time for the Government costs will fall. and this House to consider possible amendments in The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, asked response to anything it comes forward with, and, as I important questions relating to the Scottish Government’s said, it could pass the Motion any day. However, readiness for implementation, the high-level implementation beyond that there is nothing more useful that I can group and the joint Exchequer committee. I very much add. agree with him that these are important issues about the capacity of all sides, particularly the Scottish Government, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: On the point of legislative to carry out what is necessary. I have already addressed consent, could my noble friend help me by explaining the mechanics of the processes. We have the high-level why we are proceeding with a Bill in the absence of a implementation group, as the noble Lord has set out, legislative consent Motion? If the Scottish Parliament and below that the technical groups established by decided not to pass it, we would all have been wasting HMRC to work out the detail. our time. The Scottish Government have focused on pressing for further powers in the Bill. Of course, while one Lord Sassoon: We have a Bill; it is important that respects their different views on other matters that we press on, and the legislative consent Motion could they might want in the Bill, we would welcome greater come at any time. This is idle speculation. It is important attention on implementation from them. I appreciate that the Motion gets passed, and we look forward to the point that the noble Lord is making. Close attention it, but it is in the hands of the Scottish Parliament. has been shown to issues, such as the block grant There is really nothing more I can usefully say. I adjustment mechanism. There is work to do and we certainly do not believe for one minute that we are should like to see the Scottish Government set out wasting our time considering the important provisions how they will use the powers provided to them in the in this Bill. Bill. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State Let me move on to the question asked by the noble for Scotland yesterday called for clarification in particular Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, about the cost of of the stamp duty land tax, and I very much agree all of this. The major cost will be to the systems that with him on that point. would support the tax changes and the possible new The high-level implementation group was established tax rate in Scotland. It is all set out in the impact by the UK Government. It is chaired jointly by the assessment that is published alongside the Bill. However, Secretary of State for Scotland and the Exchequer for the Scottish rate of income tax, HMRC’s initial Secretary to the Treasury. It has met four times since estimate is of £40 million to £45 million over a period July 2010 and the role of the group is to oversee the of years up to the introduction in 2016-17. Clearly the implementation of the financial provisions of the Bill. final cost will be dependent on a number of decisions As I have just said, the technical groups established by 1285 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1286

[LORD SASSOON] is not relevant. It would still become law and that is HMRC report to the high-level implementation group, where we are or, alternatively, as part of our respect and they provide detailed consideration and advice to agenda we would not proceed without a legislative inform implementation. consent Motion. We seem to be in a rather fuzzy On the progress that has been made, the high-level position where we are not really saying what our implementation group is a UK Government group. It position is in respect of legislative consent, but when is entirely within the capacity and the direction of my noble friend said that we need a legislative consent Ministers in London to press on with the work of that Motion, that is clearly not correct. group. It is clear that the Scottish Government want their powers increased. To do that, clearly we would Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to my noble friend for welcome more progress to begin setting out how the picking me up on that because the technical position is powers will be used. From that, many more questions just as he states. However, in substance I stand by the will flow about implementation. That is where things remarks I made because just as we respect the conventions stand at the moment. here, I would expect the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government to respect them as well, and we The Duke of Montrose: On a slightly peripheral look forward to receiving the legislative consent Motion question, I am getting very worried that we are setting in due course and ahead of Third Reading. However, a precedent here. This may not be quite the moment to my noble friend has set out the constitutional position raise it with this Minister at the Dispatch Box but I perfectly correctly. still think that it is extremely relevant. The first indication of a legislative consent Motion was taken when the Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Perhaps I may add to Scotland Bill was going through this House. It was that one other point that we will come to at a later dubbed the Sewel Motion thereafter. That was to stage in the Bill. There are clauses that deal with the allow Westminster to legislate on devolved matters. issue of the referendum. The Scottish Parliament has We were told that a legislative consent Motion set a date on its consultation period that falls after the would be required not when the Bill started here or in likely date when Parliament will be prorogued, so it the other House but when it reached the “second will not be possible to take account of the consultation House”. We could not progress further until the legislative process because of the timetable it has chosen. consent Motion was in place. Now we are dealing with a convention that was established outwith Parliament Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I really cannot comment whereby Westminster is asking for a legislative consent on the date for Prorogation. We will see it when it Motion for a reserved matter, which this is. Are we comes, so that is pure speculation. Perhaps I may get establishing a precedent that Westminster goes ahead back to the clause, albeit that that is an important and produces legislation without legislative consent matter. I want to finish my response to the questions Motions—admittedly it is quite within its powers to about implementation put by the noble Lord, Lord do so because this is the sovereign Parliament—because Browne of Ladyton. Earlier I touched briefly on his it appears that the legislative consent Motions are questions about the joint Exchequer committee, but to getting slightly out of sync with each other. There is a complete the picture in the context of this discussion, danger that this is a precedent. as I said, the committee met on 27 September. It was a useful first meeting, which agreed the principles relating 10.15 pm to the mechanism for the block grant adjustment, as I Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we need the legislative think the noble Lord knows. It is important to stress consent Motion. I am not sure I can help my noble again that discussions continue, outside the meetings friend much further on this. As I have said, it is in the of the joint Exchequer committee, on a bilateral basis interests of the Scottish Government to get on with on a range of issues across the Bill including the block the legislative consent Motion if they want consideration grant. I repeat again that, although there are certain of any possible amendments to be taken in this House. aspects on which we would like more progress and I am repeating myself, but that really is as far as it more focus, we are making good progress and I remain goes. I do not think that these are questions of precedence confident that we will agree on the measures set out in so much as of practicality. As I said just now, there are the Bill. a number of matters on which the Scottish Government In conclusion, I believe that the provisions in would wish the provisions of the Bill to go further, so Clause 29 are necessary and sensible as part of further it is in their interests to bring forward the Motion. tax devolution. I move that this clause stand part of the Bill. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am grateful to my noble friend. So that we are clear about this, am I not Clause 29 agreed. right in saying that we do not need a legislative consent Motion? It may be that the courteous convention is Clause 30 : Scottish rate of income tax that we take account of legislative consent, but that is a courtesy. This House is sovereign, and that is one of the reasons I asked my noble friend whether we were Amendment 52 wasting our time. I was hoping that he would say that we are committed to this policy and that whether the Moved by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Scottish Parliament passes the legislative consent Motion 52: Clause 30, page 23, line 5, after “the” insert “Devolved” 1287 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1288

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: As I explained about six to celebrate the fact that a transfer of powers was hours ago, I have put down a series of amendments made very peacefully to the Scottish Parliament after to put “devolved” in front of Government. That is in the election of the Labour Government in 1997. no way to denigrate the functions of the devolved Many people misunderstand devolution, which has Government, or to devalue them or say that they are existed in Scotland for 300 years because of the nature in any way less important by putting that word in of the Act of Union. The Scotland Act merely transferred front. It is meant to indicate that we are talking about that legislation, which often took place in this House devolution and not independence. As I said previously, in the middle of the night, and put it into a proper Alex Salmond and his Ministers and colleagues in the parliamentary context. By the time I became Secretary Scottish Parliament, all of them in the SNP group, are of State for Scotland, the Scotland Office was one going around in this great big pretence that they are department. When the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was already independent and acting as if they are an Secretary of State for Scotland, he oversaw an empire independent Government. They are doing things that of something like 13 different government departments. they think they have the right to do. As we will come The model that we have now is the right one, and I to in other debates, the chief civil servant in Scotland support the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, in his argument has made some amazing and unbelievable outpourings. for celebrating the cause of devolution rather than In some of the statements made by Ministers, they trying to hide it. clearly do not comprehend what is meant by devolution. Devolution means that they remain part of the Lord Maxton: My Lords, I rise as somebody else United Kingdom and that the United Kingdom who supported devolution. There have been one or Government and Parliament are sovereign. Ultimately, two occasions during this evening when I have had my the UK institutions can make decisions affecting Scotland doubts, I must say—but in the main I have supported on a whole range of things, although by convention it, because in my view it is about democracy. That is and out of courtesy we do not do that. The word is put what distinguishes it from independence, which almost in there just to remind people that we are talking certainly under the SNP would be democratic but does about devolution; a very important concept that, as not have to be. It is not a prerequisite of an independent noble friends know, I have fought for since I was a Scotland that it has to be a democratic state, but the young man—and that was not yesterday. I spent a fact is that devolution is about democracy. The noble long time helping to persuade the Labour Party—along Lord, Lord Forsyth, may sit there and pull faces, but with John Mackintosh, Donald Dewar and a lot of he is one of the reasons why many of us argued strongly noble Lords here—to come round in favour of devolution. for the democratic process of devolution. What we One or two of my colleagues were not so enthusiastic had developed in Scotland was a Secretary of State for about it, but we managed to persuade the party to do Scotland of a Conservative Government who, of course, it. Devolution is very important. We should be proud increasingly had fewer and fewer Members in support of it and say how important it is, and how Scotland, in Scotland. Legislation which affected the whole of by having a devolved Administration, can get the the people of Scotland was being put through this benefits of both worlds. There is the benefit of being place with no democratic validity whatever. part of a strong, powerful United Kingdom—one of There was an alternative, which was to abolish the the most important powers in the world, with a permanent Scottish Office and do away with separate Scottish seat on the Security Council, and membership of the legislation altogether. That was not seriously a political European Union and NATO—but also that of having option in Scotland. The reason why we argued so a Scottish Government, with power over their own strongly for devolution was because we felt that the affairs in a whole range of important matters such as only way you could get democratic legitimacy in Scotland education, social work, law and order, health and all was to give democratic powers to a Scottish Parliament these areas. This is not to minimise those in any way, to make legislation in Scotland for— but to make sure that that is clearly understood. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: The hour is late and I Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: The noble Lord, am not going to make a speech, but I will just rise to Lord Foulkes, makes a very important point. We have the fly to say one thing. I opposed devolution because spent a lot of time in the debate today talking about I thought that it would lead ultimately to the growth the problems that surround devolution, but devolution of the demands for independence and would benefit in itself has been a very considerable achievement. It the nationalists, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Robertson. may not have gone as far as my noble friend Lord However, if I had realised how much damage devolution Robertson of Port Ellen suggested, to kill nationalism would do to the Labour Party in Scotland, I might stone dead, but it has put in place a system of government have been tempted to go along with it. that has rectified some of the inequities that have 10.30 pm existed for something like 300 years. Because of the nature of the debate that we have had as part of this Lord Maxton: However, the damage to the Labour legislation, we are missing out on making the case that Party in Scotland— devolution was a very considerable achievement. I do not think that anyone—and I am looking at the noble Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Which was self-inflicted. Lord, Lord Forsyth—would try to put the genie back in the bottle and go back to the previous status quo. Lord Maxton: It was partially self-inflicted, as my Although what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is talking noble friend beside me says. However, that damage is about is in essence a gesture, it is an opportunity for us also a short-term phenomenon and we will recover. 1289 Scotland Bill[LORDS] Scotland Bill 1290

[LORD MAXTON] say, “We have devolved power to a Scottish Parliament Certainly, we will recover once we have had the for democratic reasons. We now need to devolve further referendum on independence. I do not understand down, to give more democracy to our local communities why Mr Alex Salmond does not want that referendum and our people to take the decisions at their level that immediately, because this is his best chance of winning need to be taken at that level”. That to me is what it. The longer he leaves it, in my view, the less chance devolution is about. It is not about independence; it is he has of winning it. The arguments will no longer be not actually about nationalism or nationality at all. In about the way in which, or whether, we have the right fact, nationalism has been the bugbear of devolution, to hold the referendum. It will be about the issues of not the natural progression of it. Therefore I support what being an independent country, outside the United my noble friend’s amendment, which would put Kingdom, actually means: whether it will be part of “devolved” into this Bill. Europe; whether it will have to apply to be part of Europe; and whether the rest of the United Kingdom Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I had not will be part of Europe. Mr Alex Salmond seems to intended to speak in this debate for the simple reason think that the rest of the United Kingdom would not that I do not support the amendment and I feel that necessarily be part of Europe, but it must be in his best I am destroying my relationship with my noble friend interests to hope that it will be part of it. Can your Lord Forsyth bit by bit in a salami-slice fashion. Lordships imagine a Tory-dominated England, led by people such as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who Noble Lords: Oh! would probably say: “Now we can get out of Europe—we don’t have to be in it any longer. We can get out Lord Browne of Ladyton: Sorry, I meant my noble altogether and leave the European Union”? friend Lord Foulkes. Maybe I should start again. I always supported devolution on the basis of The reason I do not support the amendment is not democracy. It was the right thing to do and it still is. that it gives us an opportunity, as my noble friend I wish, however, that we could settle the issue of Lady Liddell of Coatdyke has indicated, to celebrate independence once and for all. If we get it out of the devolution—I intend to do a bit of that myself—nor way, we could then deal with whether we apply, change that it created the opportunity for what I thought was or alter devolution. I am not necessarily convinced an excellent contribution from my noble friend Lord that we have to give enormous extra powers to the Maxton on the reasons for devolution and why we Scottish Parliament. In fact, there are some parts of should support it in principle. But over the course of the devolution settlement where we ought to be taking this Parliament, I have been surprised by the ability of powers back from Scotland. For instance, broadcasting people to make the most detailed and engaging speeches is one area over which they demand power, but powers about the concept that has become known as localism like that should certainly be with this Parliament while at the same time resisting devolution. I do not because they are now international rather than national. really understand how people can hold those two We should not therefore necessarily always be looking concepts together in their head, as localism is just a at giving powers to Scotland, and never taking them back. form of devolution. As my noble friend Lord Maxton We also have to look at what to my mind my late has suggested, we ought to start looking at the powers and very good friend Donald Dewar meant when he that we as politicians in government of any description said that devolution is a process and not an end. The exercise over people. We should look at the appropriate process was about extending democracy from the Scottish level to exercise them that is relevant to people. Given Parliament down to local government and local areas, the experience that the political classes have had in so that you were giving powers to the people in the areas the United Kingdom over the past few years of the and the communities in which they lived. That to me is deterioration of their relationship with the people what Donald Dewar meant when he said that, not that they govern and legislate for, getting their relationship it was the first step towards an independent Scotland. with the people of the country back would be very helpful. I am a passionate supporter of devolution. I do not Baroness Adams of Craigielea: On that point, was it have anything like the history that some of my noble not the case that the Scottish Parliament in fact did friends and other Members of this House have, but I quite the opposite of that, and drew powers away from have been committed to it for the whole of the shorter local government and brought them to the Scottish political life that I have had, and I was committed to it Parliament? In fact, they are the people who have not in my membership of the Labour Party before I had a continued devolution. While this House has tried to public life in politics. At some stage in this debate we keep the concept of devolution going, the Scottish need to move away from arguments about what other Parliament has done exactly the opposite. people are doing or personalities—I include the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in this; he ought not to be the Lord Maxton: That is very much so and it was quite manifestation of a particular type of politics that we interesting, as I listened to the debate earlier on taxation, define ourselves against, any more than we should be that the Scottish Government, led by Alex Salmond obsessed by what other people are doing—to a collective over the past—what is it now?—three or four years, narrative for devolution and for the union that describes have not allowed local authorities to increase their the sort of United Kingdom that we want for the council tax. They have put a cap on it, so they have in young people of today in Scotland and their future. fact restrained taxation at a local level. My noble That will be, as the people of Scotland demand, a friend is quite right. They have actually reduced the Scotland in which there is significant devolved power, democratic rights and responsibilities of local government, exercised by a Parliament that they elect independently whereas what ought to have been the next step was to of the United Kingdom Parliament. 1291 Scotland Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Scotland Bill 1292

We have to recognise that whether we have conditioned of the Scottish Parliament who were not politicians at people into that expectation because of their dissatisfaction all when we devolved powers to it are becoming significant with the previous settlement and the sense of politicians in the United Kingdom. I simply do not disfranchisement that there was between the people support my noble friend’s interesting amendment, which who governed them and the exercise of their votes, has led to a short but interesting debate, because the whether we have conditioned them into it by their last thing that the people of Scotland need is for their expectations of devolution, or whether they have just politicians to spend another few hundred thousand been conditioned into it by their espousal in significant pounds on changing the name of their Government. numbers of the concept of nationalism, it does not really matter what the motivation is—that is where the The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace people of Scotland are. The sooner we get a collective of Tankerness): My Lords, can I perhaps be somewhat narrative that describes the sort of Scotland that we boring and brief at this time of night by focusing on want our children or our children’s children to live in, the amendment? It would insert the word “Devolved” and what powers the people who govern them will into Clause 30, Clause 37 and Schedule 4, where the have, how they will be able to use them and how they reference would become to the devolved Scottish will be accountable, the more chance that we have of Government. Clause 15 changes the formal name to preserving the union. I passionately believe that the best the Scottish Government from the Scottish Executive. way of describing that is in the context of the union. It was felt that the Executive were increasingly widely I come to the issue of the use of the word “devolved”. known as the Scottish Government and that it made The people of Scotland do not actually need that word sense to amend the Act to reflect public perception attached to anything. They understand that their and to avoid confusion. However, the fact that the Parliament is a devolved Parliament and the Scottish Scotland Act refers to “Scottish Executive” prevents Government are a devolved Government. Whether or the use of “Scottish Government”in legislation, contracts not the people who happen to have charge of that and other legal matters. Therefore, Clause 15 is designed Government or that executive power for a particular to prevent inconsistencies in what the Scottish Executive period have other ambitions and behave in a particular are called by the public and in the legal name. way, as they do, that is designed to give some alternative The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, wishes to insert impression, the people of Scotland are not fooled. The “devolved” in front of “Scottish Government”. That people of Scotland want an Executive who address the is unnecessary and may even lead to further confusion. issues that Scotland faces, which are manifest to anyone Altering the name of the Scottish Government to “the who lives there. We have problems in relation to devolved Scottish Government” would in no way unemployment, particularly youth unemployment, health, strengthen the position of devolution. Indeed, it is the abuse of alcohol, sectarianism and a lot of issues important to note that no such prefix attaches to the that have their roots in decisions made by previous devolved Administrations in Wales and Northern Ireland. generations, such as the movement of people, the It would look very odd and lopsided if it happened death of economic drivers, changes in economic just in Scotland. circumstances and the movement of jobs from these islands. There is a whole series of things, over many of That said, this has been a useful debate on devolution. which we have not had any real control. I will not go into all the highways and byways but some important points were made. Some of us who Of course, the people of Scotland do not want a very much support what has happened over the past First Minister who is more interested in consorting 12 years sometimes miss a trick because so often, ahead with people who give the impression that he is somehow of the debates in 1997 and the referendum leading up much more important than he is. They do not want to that, we talked about devolution in terms of the that and they see through it. We do not need to spend Scottish Parliament dealing with matters related to much time describing all that. However, they definitely the domestic agenda of the people of Scotland and the want politicians who can address the issues and challenges United Kingdom Parliament being responsible for of their everyday lives. They want people to explain to macroeconomic policies, defence, foreign policy, social them why these issues are best addressed in the context security and pensions. Although we will undoubtedly of the United Kingdom, wider Europe and the world. debate where the boundaries should be—the Bill seeks They understand that. to address some of these issues—I nevertheless believe Traditionally, Scots knew and understood their position that the idea of a Scottish Parliament within a United in the world. That is why, while there are approximately Kingdom still commands the support of the vast 5 million people in Scotland who claim to be Scots, majority of the people in Scotland. I hope that the there are in excess of 40 million people around the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment. world who claim Scots heritage in one way or another. We are a nation of people who have an understanding and concept of our place in the world. I honestly do Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am convinced by the not think that we need to spend any more time in this eloquence and brevity of both Front Benches. I beg Committee or on the Bill debating these issues. We leave to withdraw the amendment. need to start describing the future of Scotland in the context of devolution and celebrate what we have Amendment 52 withdrawn. already achieved by being a template for genuine localism in the United Kingdom. House resumed. It has not been perfect. We have a very young Parliament in which people are growing up. Members House adjourned at 10.46 pm.

WS 105 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 106

Copies of this publication haven been deposited in Written Statements the Libraries of both Houses. 1 The former Northern Rock was split into two entities on Tuesday 28 February 2012 1 January 2010: Northern Rock plc, a mortgage and savings bank; and Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc, the remaining closed mortgage book Banking: Asset Protection Agency Crown Prosecution Service and Revenue Statement and Customs Prosecutions Office Statement The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord to the Treasury (Mark Hoban) has today made the McNally): My honourable friend the Parliamentary following Written Ministerial Statement. Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Crispin The interim report for the Asset Protection Agency Blunt) has made the following Written Ministerial (APA) has today been made electronically available in Statement. the Libraries of both Houses. I have today laid before Parliament a public The report contains commentary on key developments consultation document: Consultation on an order giving in relation to the APA and the Asset Protection Scheme legal effect to the administrative merger of the Crown (APS) over the period from 31 March 2011 to Prosecution Service and the Revenue and Customs 31 December 2011. Prosecutions Office. The merger of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) I am pleased to note the statements in the report and the Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office that the likelihood of the Royal Bank of Scotland (RCPO) has already been achieved administratively. (RBS) being able to make a claim under the APS has The merger took place on 1 January 2010 and is reduced significantly and that the British taxpayer is safeguarding and delivering improvements to the already expected to make an overall profit of at least £5 billion high quality work on serious and complex cases. It is from the APS. also providing increased value for money by minimising duplication and driving economies of scale. The benefits include an enhanced international capability, a specialist Banking: Northern Rock tax prosecution service and a joint prosecution approach Statement to cross-border crime. The two organisations, however, remain legally distinct. I believe it is desirable for them to be one organisation The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord legally as well as operationally. An order under the Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary Public Bodies Act 2011 would achieve this objective. to the Treasury (Mark Hoban) has today made the The purpose of the consultation exercise is to seek following Written Ministerial Statement. views on whether we should give legal effect to the On 17 November 2011, the Chancellor announced administrative merger and whether the approach we the sale of Northern Rock plc to Virgin Money. The are proposing would achieve the desired effect. transaction completed on 1 January 2012, following The consultation closes on the 22 May 2012. I will approval from the Financial Services Authority and carefully consider the consultation responses before receipt of European Commission merger clearance. bringing forward any order giving legal effect to the Today, UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI) has administrative merger of the CPS and RCPO. published a document setting out the background to and rationale for the decision to return Northern Education: Cultural Education Rock plc to the private sector through its sale to Virgin Statement Money. The publication includes information regarding UKFI’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for assessment of the Virgin Money bid against a full Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable range of options to return Northern Rock plc to the friend the Secretary of State for Education (Michael private sector, including remutualisation. UKFI and Gove) has made the following Written Ministerial Northern Rock plc received independent corporate Statement. finance advice from Deutsche Bank. Other information Together with the Parliamentary Under-Secretary includes background on the sale process and the timing of State at the Department for Culture, Media and of the sale. Sport (Ed Vaizey), I am today publishing Darren The publication also includes an assessment of the Henley’s report on cultural education and the expected overall taxpayer returns from the Government’s Government’s response to its recommendations. intervention in the former Northern Rock which amounts Darren Henley, Managing Director of Classic FM, to a positive net cash return. The Government provided sets out a compelling challenge for making cultural £37 billion of funding into the two companies1 that education in English schools world class. The report comprise the former Northern Rock and the return of sets out a vision—to enable children from all backgrounds cash from these companies to Government (excluding and every part of England to have the opportunity to tax proceeds) is expected to total between £46 billion experience and enjoy the best that our unique cultural and £48 billion. heritage has to offer. WS 107 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 108

Once again we would like to record our grateful We will invite teaching schools to draw up a programme thanks to Darren Henley for his ambitious approach of work, investing £300,000 to develop training and to undertaking a review of this scale across such a mentoring for new teachers and continuing professional divergent sector. His vision for excellence in cultural development for experienced teachers. They will work education is one that we share. with and be supported by cultural sponsored bodies to ensure all schools have access both to excellent teaching We would also like to express our gratitude to the support and a variety of cultural education activities cultural education sponsored bodies: Arts Council for all pupils. England, the British Film Institute, English Heritage and the Heritage Lottery Fund, which have risen to Museums and galleries will receive £3.6 million to the challenges posed in the report and which have encourage and help all students to experience some of found a way to work together to address those challenges. our cultural and historical treasures at first hand. We look forward to continuing to work closely with English Heritage will work closely with schools, them, and to their increasing support for schools. encouraging them to explore historical sites in their local area. Learning about our culture and playing an active Our intention is that no talented young person, part in the cultural life of the school and wider community whatever their background, should be unable to realise is as vital to developing our identity and self-esteem as their full creative potential. We are therefore investing understanding who we are through knowing our history £600,000 to establish a new national youth dance and the origins of our society. company so that talented young dancers can aspire to Enjoying and participating in cultural life should reach the top of their profession, whether that is in be available to all students: it must not be restricted to contemporary or classical dance. This will match the those young people whose families already enjoy the excellent models we have in the field of music. We will benefits of participating in cultural activities. No matter expand the art and design Saturday clubs, based on a what their background or family circumstances, school model pioneered by Sir James Sorrell, to give students pupils should have the opportunity to develop their access to high quality specialist equipment and tuition creativity, their relationship with society, and to contribute at local colleges and universities. The British Film to the economy in ways that are beneficial to them as Institute will lead the establishment of a new national individuals and to society. youth film academy, which will receive £3 million from the Department for Education, with additional support Cultural education is a valuable part of a rounded from the National Lottery, to support film education education that children and young people should expect for all children and young people. Its aim will be to to receive, not least on enhanced pupil performance train the next generation of talented British film-makers. across the curriculum. Our departments are determined that, together with The Department for Education is therefore making our arm’s-length bodies, our collective resources and £15 million available over the next three years to expertise will make a real difference to the quality of ensure that all pupils can engage in a variety of cultural cultural education experienced by all pupils in all activities of the highest quality. We want the experience schools. that young people have of their cultural heritage while Copies of Cultural Education in England, together at school to inspire them to participate actively in the with the Government’s response have been placed in cultural life of the nation throughout their lives. the Libraries of both Houses. This is not just about creating opportunities; the real and lasting impact will occur when those opportunities EU: Competitiveness Council are enjoyable, challenging, of high quality, and when Statement the young people are appropriately supported to achieve. We welcome the collaboration and contribution of the DCMS-sponsored bodies to work with schools and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, make this vision a reality. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): My honourable friend the Minister for Our intention is to make it possible for every school Employment Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs to introduce every pupil to high quality cultural education, (Norman Lamb) has today made the following Statement. achieving academic excellence, and for young people The EU Competitiveness Council took place in to contribute to our thriving creative industries, if that Brussels on 20 and 21 February 2012. I represented is where their talent and passion lies. We are introducing the UK on internal market and industry issues on new initiatives, over the next three years, with the 20 February, and Andy Lebrecht, Deputy Permanent shared commitment of the Arts Council England, Representative to the EU, represented the UK on English Heritage, the British Film Institute and the research issues on 21 February. A summary of those Heritage Lottery Fund. We shall publish a new national discussions follows. plan for cultural education in which we will set out a The main internal market and industry issues discussed clear route for cultural education from early years on 20 February were: Europe 2020; public procurement; through to study at the highest level. the accounting directive, which was also the subject of As evidence of this shared commitment, a new the lunchtime discussion; social entrepreneurship and cross-ministerial group will help the Department for venture capital funds; and smart regulation. Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for An orientation debate was held on the Europe 2020 Education work more effectively with sponsored bodies strategy, linked to the 2012 Annual Growth Survey. and each other. Discussions from this Competitiveness Council, and WS 109 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 110 other sectoral councils, are due to feed into the March stimulate innovation, including strengthened support 2012 European Council conclusions. All member states for pre-commercial public sector procurement as a intervened positively.I intervened to press for completion means of driving investment in new products. The UK of those growth measures that were already in the intervention referred to measures adopted at national pipeline, ie concluding free trade agreements, fully level. implementing the services directive, continuing to On the European Institute of Innovation and deregulate our professions, reducing regulatory burdens Technology (EIT), Commissioner Vassiliou introduced and creating a fully functioning digital single market. the Commission’s proposals, noting that it was a crucial Some member states also called for greater reciprocity feature within Europe’s wider package of support for with respect to the external dimension of the single innovation, and that the EIT was now delivering results market. I intervened to counter these calls. through the Knowledge and Innovation Communities A second orientation debate was held on the proposal (KICs). to update the public procurement package. I intervened to press for greater flexibility in the procurement rules, On the bioeconomy, Commissioner Geoghegan-Quinn and was supported by several other member states in introduced the Commission’s communication “Innovating this regard. I also called for the retention of the for Sustainable Growth: a Bioeconomy for Europe”; current distinction between so called A-services and stating that the smart and sustainable use of biological B-services, which are currently subject to different resources and waste was now a necessity given the regimes. Specific to the UK, I also called for the dual pressures of diminishing fossil resources and Commission to consider whether fledgling mutuals global population growth. By making smart investments should be subject to full EU rules from the outset, and the EU could maintain global leadership in and secure whether it might be appropriate to introduce a time-limited new sources of business growth. This was followed by exemption. an exchange of views over lunch, during which member states expressed support for a more coherent approach Over lunch, and subsequently in formal session, to policy-making in this area, noting that the issue was there was a discussion on the accounting directive. too diverse to be handled by a single directorate-general. This focused on the proposed requirement for increased transparency in the payments from mining and extractive On Horizon 2020, the presidency hosted a further companies to governments, on a per-country and per- orientation debate, inviting Ministers to explore the project basis. I led the discussions by supporting the support that will be required to ensure that the social ambition of increasing transparency in the sector by sciences and humanities (SSH) are fully integrated developing a meaningful reporting regime, whilst also within the programme. Ministers were also invited to stressing the importance that our extractive industries explore the support necessary for SMEs, and the measures remain competitive. I also called for the materiality needed fully to embed international co-operation in threshold, the monetary level at which reporting occurs, the programme. Member states, including the UK, be set out in the directive. expressed strong support for the principle of embedding support for SSH throughout Horizon 2020, with many The final orientation debate focused on venture arguing that technological advances that were not capital and social entrepreneurship funds, and there accompanied by a firm understanding of the potential was broad support for the proposals. Some member socio-economic and behavioural impacts were less states called for a heavier regulatory regime to include likely to be adopted by citizens. Several member states the need for depositaries, though this received little supported enhancing international co-operation, notably support and the UK intervened to call for a light in the context of addressing global societal challenges. regime. Many member states, including the UK, underlined The council agreed conclusions on smart regulation. the need to foster participation by SMEs, including Poland intervened to support the conclusions. through the proposed debt and equity facilities and There was one AOB point on day one regarding the specific measures for SMEs. Some member states patents package. Several member states intervened to highlighted the need for member states to provide call for the swift conclusion of the outstanding issues. direct networking and mentoring support to SMEs and universities to improve synergies between the two. The main research and space items discussed on The UK noted we would be reviewing support available 21 February were; the Global Monitoring for the to SMEs. The presidency reaffirmed its ambition to Environment and Security (GMES) Programme; the work towards political agreement (partial general Annual Growth Survey in the context of the Europe approach) at the May 2012 Competitiveness Council. 2020 strategy; and scene-setting discussions on the Horizon 2020 package with a focus on international Under AOB, Commissioner Geoghegan-Quinn collaboration, SME support and the social sciences provided an update on Commission preparations for a and humanities. European Research Area Framework and noted that a recent public consultation had highlighted obstacles In the orientation debate on GMES, the UK and to researcher mobility and careers as key obstacles to several other member states intervened to state that it the development of a genuine single market in research should be funded from within the EU budget. within the EU. On ITER (International Thermonuclear On the Annual Growth Survey, member states noted Experimental Reactor Programme), the UK and several in particular the need to develop complementarities other member states called on the Commission to between national and EU-level research programmes include funding within the next Multi-Annual Financial through simplified public-private partnerships; and to Framework (MFF) as placing the programme outside improve the focus on demand-side measures that could the MFF risked sending damaging signals about political WS 111 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 112 support for the project, which the EU is leading on. ODA’s anticipated final cost has reduced by £211 The presidency provided information on the informal million since the 2010 spending review. council it hosted in Copenhagen on 2 February 2012. The ODA has achieved £38 million of new savings in the quarter October to December 2011 taking the total achieved since the November 2007 baseline to Government Departments: Regulation more than £950 million. Construction of the venues Statement and infrastructure for the Games is 96 per cent complete with the Olympic Park and Village handed over from the ODA to LOCOG in January 2012 so they can The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, prepare the venues for staging the Games. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness A number of items of work have been transferred Wilcox): My honourable friend the Minister of State to LOCOG following the handover, as it is now best for Business and Enterprise (Mark Prisk) has today placed to deliver them. Accordingly, £24 million has made the following Statement. been released to LOCOG for operational security and The Government are today publishing the One-in, for the conversion of venues for the Paralympic Games. One-out: Third Statement of New Regulation. This Up to £12 million has also been released to LOCOG Statement reports on regulations within the scope of for capital works which will have legacy benefits, including the One-in, One-out rule which are expected to come the fit out of the media centres, the installation of into force between 1 January and 30 June 2012. In electric vehicle charging points and the relocation of parallel, departments are each publishing a summary the hockey pitches to Eton Manor following the Games. of the regulations they intend to introduce. As planned, funds have also been released for pedestrian I am laying copies of the Statement in the House management outside Games venues (£57.7 million) Libraries. and additional utilities resilience measures across Games venues (£12.5 million). These costs were previously forecast so do not constitute an increase, but rather a Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 confirmation of previous budget assumptions. Statement The remaining balance of contingency within the public sector funding package now stands at £425 million with an additional £102 million available to the ODA Baroness Garden of Frognal: My honourable friend in programme contingency to cover assessed risk. In the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, total, this leaves £527 million of uncommitted contingency Olympics, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson) has remaining. made the following Written Ministerial Statement. I am publishing today the Government Olympic The change to the ODA anticipated final cost is due Executive’s quarterly report—London 2012 Olympic to a number of factors, including: and Paralympic Games Quarterly Report February 2012. a decrease of £72 million in the programme contingency This report explains the latest budget position as at required to meet remaining assessed risks; 31 December 2011, and outlines some of the investments which are being made to capitalise on the London a net £29 million increase in transport operating 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. expenditure reflecting a reallocation of £34 million to venue transport operations offset by £5 million Across the whole Games project, preparations are savings; reaching their final stages. Ownership of the Olympic Park has been transferred from the Olympic Delivery a decrease of £15 million largely due to LOCOG Authority (ODA) to the London Organising Committee. taking responsibility for operational security from The Olympic and Paralympic travel planning website January 2012; Get Ahead of the Games has been launched to help a reduction of £6 million in the forecast construction people plan their Games-time journeys. The security costs of the village due to close out of commercial and emergency services have taken part in some very contracts; and visible testing exercises, and sports test events continue, most recently the Track Cycling World Cup at the an increase of £3 million in the international broadcast Velodrome and the Diving World Cup at the Aquatics centreandthemainpresscentrecostsduetocommissioning Centre. of the building and improved drainage systems. At just 150 days to go until the Games, the overall With 150 days to go to the Games, we remain on funding package remains at £9.298 billion with time and within budget with more than £500 million £527 million of uncommitted contingency available, a of uncommitted contingency remaining. This puts us reduction of £1 million on the previous quarter. The in a strong position and gives me increasing confidence ODA’s construction programme is now 96 per cent that we can deliver the Games under budget. complete. The anticipated final cost of the ODA’s I would like to commend this report to the Members construction, infrastructure and transport programme of both Houses and thank them for their continued is £6.777 billion—a decrease of £79 million on the interest in and support for the London 2012 Games. previous quarter. This includes £26 million that the ODA has returned to the DCMS which is being Copies of the quarterly report February 2012 are transferred to LOCOG and the OPLC for work on available online at www.culture.gov.uk and will be park venues and security. On a like-for-like basis, the deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. WS 113 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 114

Railways: Crossrail Secondly, Crossrail Ltd, which has already developed a reputation for being an industry leader in this field, Statement will ensure that, going forward, this procurement is efficient and effective and does not involve unnecessary costs for the bidders. In addition, this contract will provide a significant Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Secretary element of public investment, alongside private finance, of State for Transport (Justine Greening) has made optimising the balance of public debt and transfer of the following Ministerial Statement. risk to the private sector. This approach will help ease I would like to inform the House that the invitation the costs of debt repayments to the public purse, as to negotiate for the procurement of rolling stock and well as reduce bidders’ requirements to raise debt and associated depot facilities has today been issued by equity, while still transferring significant risk to the Crossrail Ltd. private sector ensuring that we secure value for money. Together with the Mayor of London, my co-sponsor First and foremost, the successful bidder must be able on the Crossrail project, I welcome this major milestone to deliver the right trains and depot facilities. in Crossrail’s journey from inception to reality. Above all, I want this procurement to be a fair Crossrail will create vital new transport infrastructure process that provides best value for money for the UK to support economic growth. It will deliver faster taxpayer and future farepayers and high quality, reliable journey times and a 10 per cent increase in the capacity trains for the millions of people that will use Crossrail of London’s rail network. services every week. Crossrail Ltd is inviting suppliers to design, Four bidders will be receiving the invitation to manufacture, finance and service around 60 new trains negotiate having performed strongly at the pre- and build a depot at Old Oak Common in West qualification stage and I look forward to a highly London. These new trains will provide around 27,000 competitive process. The contract will be awarded in seats, reducing congestion and bringing an additional spring 2014. 1.5 million people within 45 minutes of London’s major business centres. Small Businesses: Taxation Honourable Members will recall that the previous Secretary of State for Transport committed to consider Statement any relevant findings of the Government’s growth review as part of this and other large scale procurements. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Honourable Members will also be aware that my right Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the published the National Infrastructure Plan in November following Written Ministerial Statement. 2011 and included a package of measures to reform The Government launched the Office of Tax public procurement in the Autumn Statement. Simplification (OTS) in July 2010 to provide independent My department has been working with colleagues advice on simplifying the tax system. across Whitehall and suppliers and delivery bodies to The OTS has been working on three reviews and implement these recommendations. Across the transport today has published its final recommendations on its sector we want to improve dialogue with suppliers and small business tax review. The OTS will be presenting increase the long-term visibility of forthcoming contracts its interim reports on pensioner taxation and employee in order to strengthen the capability of the UK supply share schemes next week. chain. On 9 May 2011, the Government asked the OTS to In respect of Crossrail, reflecting its stage in the carry out a review of tax administration for small procurement process, this invitation to negotiate is a businesses as part of the next stage of the OTS’s small clear example of how, working in partnership with the business tax review. The OTS was asked to identify mayor and Crossrail Ltd, we are already adapting our areas of the tax system that cause the most day-to-day approach: complexity for small businesses, recommend priority First, the invitation to negotiate includes requirements areas for simplification and consider the impact of for responsible procurement. This means that bidders these recommendations on different business sectors. are required to set out how they will engage with the The Government will respond to the OTS wider supply chain and provide opportunities for training, recommendations at the Budget, on 21 March 2012. apprenticeships, and small and medium-size businesses Copies of the final report on small business have been within their procurement strategy. Bidders are also deposited in the Libraries of the House. required to establish an appropriate local presence to manage the delivery of the contract. The mayor and I are also keen to understand and South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands communicate the benefit of this contract to the UK Statement economy; bidders are being asked, in the invitation to negotiate, to specify from where each element of the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth contract will be sourced. This is not an assessment Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My honourable criterion in the decision process. However, the successful friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for bidder will be required to report against their proposed Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Henry Bellingham) estimates. has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 115 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 116

We would like to draw the attention of the House to Since the national action plan was last revised in the announcement yesterday by the Government of November 2010, the Government have been active in the Overseas Territory of South Georgia and South promoting the Women, Peace and Security agenda Sandwich Islands, declaring a sustainable use marine through multilateral bodies, including: a significant protected area (MPA), covering over 1 million square financial contribution to UN women; encouraging kilometres of the territory’s maritime zone. The more states to develop national action plans; and Government very much welcome this announcement, promoting the inclusion of gender issues within doctrine which means that waters around South Georgia and and practice for peace missions. South Sandwich Islands are now one of the largest Across Whitehall, further efforts have been made to sustainably managed areas of ocean in the world. expand awareness of Women, Peace and Security issues, The sustainable use marine protected area enshrines including through revised conflict, security and human in legislation new and existing policies to ensure the rights training programmes that include significant highest standards of sustainable fisheries management. elements covering gender issues; the deployment of The declaration includes over 20,000 square kilometres female engagement teams on UK military operations of no-take zones, alongside a prohibition on commercial overseas; and the dissemination of a 1325 toolkit to all bottom trawling and depth limits on the use of commercial of our embassies and government offices overseas. bottom longlining. These measures will provide protection We have also continued to deliver gender-based for the sensitive biologically diverse seabed and support programmes in our three priority countries. For example, the protection of the fish stocks around each of the DfID has invested £60 million in a security sector islands within the territory. accountability and police reform programme in the The South Georgia toothfish fishery has already Democratic Republic of Congo, which will include the been certified as sustainable and well managed by the development of sexual and gender-based violence focused Marine Stewardship Council. The MPA designation police units. The FCO is funding a multi-donor project further underpins the sustainable management and to strengthen the capacity of the National Human environmental stewardship of South Georgia and South Rights Commission in Nepal, to help develop a responsive Sandwich Islands, as well as contributing to the UK’s and accessible justice system that will promote gender wider commitment to the conservation of the Southern equality. In addition to a wide range of gender-focused Ocean, through its leading role within the Commission programme activity in Afghanistan, we are supporting for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living the Afghan development of a 1325 national action Resources. The Government of South Georgia and plan, ensuring wide ranging consultation, including South Sandwich Islands have also indicated their intention with women’s groups. to undertake further scientific work during 2012 to In October 2011, I published a review of the identify whether further additional protection measures Government’s performance against the national action should be incorporated into the MPA designation in plan. The revised plan that I am announcing today the future. learns from that review and outlines new commitments for action over the coming year. It also reflects new challenges on Women, Peace Women: Peace and Security and Security, in particular following the Arab spring. Statement The national action plan has been expanded to include, for the first time, a regional action plan for the Middle East and North Africa. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth We are grateful to the Associate Parliamentary Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My honourable Group on Women, Peace and Security (APG WPS) friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for its active engagement on this important issue and Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Henry Bellingham) would in particular like to thank my honourable friend has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Nicola Blackwood MP, who chairs that group. I should I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and also like to thank the civil society organisation Gender Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Action on Peace and Security (GAPS), for the contribution Defence and the Department for International it has made to the process of revising the plan. Development, is today publishing a revised British We will continue to consult with Parliament and Government national action plan on UNSCR 1325 civil society, including in the run up to a review of the Women, Peace and Security. This national action plan Government’s progress against the revised national is fully integrated with the work of my honourable action plan in the autumn. friend, the Ministerial Champion on Violence, Against As the national action plan expires in November Women and Girls, Lynne Featherstone MP. 2013, a full evaluation will take place in 2013, and I wanted to announce publication to coincide with make recommendations on how the plan should be the start of the British presidency of the UN Security refreshed or replaced. Council in March, given the lead role that the UK I have deposited a copy of the revised national takes on the council, for the Women, Peace and Security action plan in the Libraries of both Houses. It is also agenda. available on the FCO website at www.fco.gov.uk. WA 337 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 338

Lord De Mauley: The RAF does not record separate Written Answers budgets for the operational and non-operational use Tuesday 28 February 2012 of fuels, oils and lubricants for non-deployed aircraft; budgets are set based upon the planned activities, including standing operational commitments, in order Agriculture: Eggs to meet defence tasks. The budgeted costs for financial Question year 2011-12, which includes diesel for ground vehicles, heating oil, aviation fuel and various other oils and Asked by Lord Laird lubricants, is approximately £212 million. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to In all its activities the RAF aims to make the most the Written Answer by Lord Taylor of Holbeach on effective use of its fuel resources. Examples include the 16 January (WA111–2), whether tests on eggs imported introduction of more fuel efficient aircraft, the increased from the European Union with a producer code 3 use of synthetic training as well as ongoing investigations mark indicating production by hens in enriched into other methods to improve fuel efficiency. cages have revealed any batches produced by hens in conventional cages and marked with an incorrect code in breach of marketing rules; and what action Aviation: Air Traffic they expect the contacted competent authority in Question the member state of origin to take if that state has already failed to implement the welfare of laying Asked by Lord Berkeley hens directive. [HL15609] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the current air traffic capacity at Heathrow, Gatwick, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Stansted, Birmingham International and Luton for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor airports; and how much additional capacity is available of Holbeach): To date, Defra has not found any class A within current policies or permissions. [HL15683] eggs from production sites still using conventional cages entering the UK market. Batches which have been examined, using ultra violet light analysis, have Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport’s UK so far shown marks which are consistent with legal Aviation Forecasts 2011 provide an assessment of how enriched cage production. activity at UK airports and the associated CO2 emissions If we suspected that imported eggs being marketed are likely to change into the future, given existing as class A were from a conventional cage, we would policy commitments. contact the relevant competent authority for confirmation The 2011 forecasts made assumptions about both of whether the eggs were compliant or not. The UK’s terminal and runway capacities at airports. These are enforcement strategy is set out in the written Ministerial based upon a maximum use scenario where no new Statement of 6 December 2011. runways are built in the UK but, where there is no explicit planning prohibition, most airports develop as necessary in the medium term to utilise their current Armed Forces: Aircraft potential runway capacity. Question Details of the capacity assumptions used are available Asked by Lord West of Spithead in table 2.6 of the published report, available here: To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/uk-aviation- the Written Answer by Lord Astor of Hever on forecasts-2011. 14 February (HL15261), what is the cost of embedding RAF air crew in a variety of allied forces.[HL15764] Aviation: Youth Movements Lord De Mauley: The approximate cost of the Question 33 RAF aircrew serving overseas as part of the Seedcorn Asked by Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen initiative is £2.1 million for financial year 2011-12. Taking into account overseas allowances and travel To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps and subsistence costs the total bill is £3.25 million. they are taking to encourage more young people to Much of this cost would be present in the budget in become involved with organisations such as the Air another form if the personnel were undertaking other Cadets, Air Scouts and Air League. [HL15871] roles. Lord De Mauley: The RAF, and the Air Cadet Armed Forces: Fuel Resources Organisation in particular, engage with young people Question on a number of levels and are committed to their Asked by Lord Moonie development. Air Cadets maintain a visible uniformed presence at air shows and other local events with To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the display stands to inform the public of the activities Royal Air Force’s ordinary non-operational budget cadets undertake. Additionally, the Air Cadet Organisation for fuel, oils and lubricants; and what steps they are has its own websites and magazine with details of taking to improve the efficiency of consumption. how to join and is currently supporting the Mayor [HL15883] WA 339 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 340 of London’s “You Matter” initiative, which offers The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord opportunities for young people to join volunteer uniformed Sassoon): The UK supports the greater use of the cadet organisations across London. Chinese Yuan in international trade and financial Although the Air Scouts and Air League are civilian transactions and its inclusion in due time in the bodies, the RAF works closely with them to nurture International Monetary Fund’s Special Drawing Right and support an interest in aviation amongst young basket. people through a network of Air Cadet Liaison Officers based at each of its stations. Crime: Motoring Convictions Question Bovine Tuberculosis Asked by Lord Dubs Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon has been made through the British-Irish Council to establish the mutual recognition of penalty points To ask Her Majesty’s Government what other for motoring offences between Northern Ireland methods of killing badgers they considered prior to and the Republic of Ireland. [HL15282] agreeing on using shooting for the badger culling pilots; and whether they undertook impact assessments Earl Attlee: Work to establish the mutual recognition for the different methods. [HL15464] of penalty points for motoring offences between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is a devolved The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department matter and is being pursued by both respective for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor Governments through the North-South Ministerial of Holbeach): Cage-trapping and shooting and controlled Council. shooting were the only culling methods considered in the Government’s impact assessment (published in Cycling December 2011), as these are the only culling methods Question for which sufficient evidence of humaneness and effectiveness Asked by Lord Bradshaw is available. Alternative culling methods, including snares, gassing, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to foaming and poisoning are not considered suitable. A the Written Statement by Earl Attlee on 7 February, number of reports on these other control methods are whether any procedures are in place to ensure that available at: http://webarchive.nationalarchiyes.gov.uk/ the additional funding for the promotion of cycling 20081107201922/http:/defra.gov.uk/animalh/tb/ will be spent in addition to what is currently in local abouttb/badgers.htm. authority plans. [HL15485] Earl Attlee: The £15 million growth package for Broadcasting: Satellite Transmissions cycling and walking announced on 7 February will be Question provided to Sustrans and the Cycle Rail Working Group (CRWG) to allocate to projects which will Asked by Lord Dubs promote economic growth and cut carbon. This is in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress addition to any funding already assigned by local has been made at the International Telecommunication authorities and train operating companies to sustainable Union World Radio conference currently taking transport initiatives. place in Geneva in reaching a resolution on the We have asked Sustrans and CRWG to develop issue of the jamming of satellite transmissions. projects which complement existing investment and [HL15559] attract funding from other sources, and we will be taking a final decision on their proposed projects in Baroness Rawlings: I am pleased to report that March. significant progress is being made at the ITU World Radio Conference (WRC) in Geneva on the issue of Cyclists: Penalties jamming of satellite transmissions. The UK delegation Question has been prominent in efforts that have led to a proposal Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon to amend the radio regulations of the ITU so as to clarify the obligations on member states to ensure that To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to any transmission that might cause interference with the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 9 February transmissions of another administration are prohibited. (WA 89), whether they will increase the amount of This text is subject to agreement by the plenary of the the penalty for cycling on the footway to bring it in conference. line with increases in penalties for other traffic penalties since 2010. [HL15755] China: Yuan Earl Attlee: The Government announced plans in Question their Strategic Framework for Road Safety (May 2011) to increase road traffic fixed penalty notices from Asked by Viscount Waverley £60 to between £80-£100 to bring this in line with To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they other penalty notices and avoid the risk of trivialising have expressed concerns regarding, or are supportive these offences. We intend to consult on this in the of, a new Chinese Yuan currency reserve. [HL15743] summer. WA 341 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 342

We are considering the scope of offences covered by Baroness Garden of Frognal: The Government are this, including whether this should cover other moving fully involved with the work of the European Council traffic offences, such as cycling on the footway. Expert Group on Sport, Health and Participation. Experts from Sport England and Sport Scotland represent the UK in this group. Dogs: Strays Question Forestry Commission Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Asked by Lord Judd they have to deal with the problem of stray dogs. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the [HL15868] annual cost per member of the United Kingdom population of the work of the Forestry Commission. [HL15821] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Holbeach): I am pleased to say that we are close to for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor finalising a package of measures to tackle irresponsible of Holbeach): Forestry is a devolved matter and the dog owners, including stray dogs. We will be announcing funding of the Forestry Commission in Scotland and these measures very shortly. Wales is a matter for the respective administrations. The Forestry Commission does not operate in Northern Ireland. Therefore we cannot provide a figure for the Enterprise Zones annual cost per member of the United Kingdom of the Questions work of the Forestry Commission. Asked by Lord Berkeley Asked by Lord Judd To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions To ask Her Majesty’s Government who set the they have had with the Forestry Commission about boundaries of the enterprise zone in Great Yarmouth; the consequences of recent cuts to the Commission’s and which people or organisations were consulted budget for its work on (1) wildlife, with particular beforehand. [HL15855] reference to the Lake District and Kielder Forest, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many (2) the return to the Lake District and Kielder jobs are forecast to be created by the Great Yarmouth Forest of osprey and red kites and the preservation enterprise zone by 2015; and how many of those of red squirrels in the same area, (3) control of tree will result from businesses which committed to disease including in larch trees, and (4) the moving into the proposed zone before it was Commission’s education services; and what was the established. [HL15856] outcome of those discussions. [HL15822]

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: No specific discussions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department have taken place. The Forestry Commission, as a for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): non-ministerial department, is responsible for managing The boundaries of the enterprise zone sites in Great within its budget and is now implementing its plans to Yarmouth were set by the New Anglia local enterprise achieve the level of reform required to realise necessary partnership. The local enterprise partnership consulted savings. Whilst achieving this, it recognises the need to local land owners and local communities in setting protect spending on high priority areas such as biosecurity these boundaries. These boundaries have been confirmed and plant health. by the Government in awarding enterprise zone status The Forestry Commission recognises it may need to for Great Yarmouth. adapt its plans following the Government’s response The New Anglia local enterprise partnership has to the recommendations of the Independent Panel on estimated that the enterprise zone sites in Great Yarmouth Forestry and has structured its proposals in such a and Lowestoft could create approximately 1,380 jobs way that this flexibility can be achieved. The panel’s by 2015. This estimate is in addition to jobs that would recommendations are expected later this year and have been created in the zone anyway. until they have been considered by the Government, the Forestry Commission must continue with the restructuring in order to achieve the financial savings EU: Sport required over the next four years. Question Asked by Lord Moynihan Forests: Sport and Recreation Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to contribute to the work of the European Asked by Lord Moynihan Council Expert Group Sport Health and Participation To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they in order to provide recommendations on how to have identified ways in which the Forestry Commission promote health-enhancing physical activity and can increase opportunities for sport and recreation participation in grassroots sport. [HL15859] in woodlands. [HL15863] WA 343 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 344

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We have a regular of Holbeach): We established an independent panel to dialogue with Greece on a wide range of defence consider forestry policy in England, which will report matters, but have made no representations about the with its findings later this year. The panel will advise procurement of Abrams tanks or any other recent on the future direction of forestry and woodland policy defence procurement. The UK has made clear that in England, on the role of the Forestry Commission, any hypothetical future financial support for Greece and on the role of the public forest estate. would only be made through the International Monetary Fund.

Government Departments: Staff House of Lords: Appointments Questions Commission Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Viscount Falkland will list any individuals in the Department for Transport or nominated by the Department for Transport or To ask Her Majesty’s Government for how long Ministers in that department who hold posts papers relating to the consideration of names before remunerated on the basis of at least 100 days’ work the House of Lords Appointments Commission are per annum and who are paid through a company kept; and whether they ultimately form part of the for their services, with the pay band in each case. National Archives. [HL15734] [HL15670] Baroness Verma: Papers relating to the consideration of names before the House of Lords Appointments Earl Attlee: The Chief Secretary to the Treasury Commission are managed in line with the requirements has announced an urgent review of the tax arrangements of the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Public Records of senior public sector appointments, to report by Act 1958. the end of March 2012. Ministers are paid through the departmental payroll. Asked by Lord Laird Migration Advisory Committee To ask Her Majesty’s Government on what grounds Question and by whose authority the police may arrest a civil Asked by Lord Laird servant employed by the Home Office on that department’s property, or remove papers and property To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the from that civil servant’s office. [HL15692] annual fees payable to members of the Migration Advisory Committee, and for what period of work in a week. [HL15888] The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Police powers of arrest, search and seizure, as set out in Parts II and III of the Police and Criminal Evidence The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Act 1984, apply to all individuals, including civil servants, The chair of the Migration Advisory Committee is and to all Home Office premises. paid an annual remuneration of £41,943 for two days’ work each week. Should the police wish to arrest an individual, or seize items, on Home Office premises, the usual practice Other committee members are paid remuneration would be for them to seek prior consent from the of £275 per day, for two days’ work each month. Departmental Security Unit. National Commissioning Board Question Greece: Defence Procurement Question Asked by Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the appointment process for the selection of the national To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light directors of the National Commissioning Board of the United Kingdom’s commitments to supporting Authority. [HL15818] Greece in the event of a Greek loan default, and of the current restrictions on United Kingdom defence spending and related redundancies, what The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department representations they have made to the government of Health (Earl Howe): I have written to the noble of Greece regarding their recent purchases of Baroness on this matter, which she raised during report 400 Abrams tanks and other recent Greek defence stage of the Health and Social Care Bill, and have procurement. [HL15768] placed a copy of my letter in the Library. WA 345 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 346

NHS: Management Consultants friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Question Local Government (Eric Pickles), (Official Report, col. WS 71). Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Earl Howe on 13 February (Official Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Report, col. 554–7), what questions they have asked, Question or intend to ask, of McKinsey & Company regarding Asked by Lord Berkeley their involvement in the design and implementation of health reforms; and whether they will publish To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the the answers to such questions. [HL15735] Maritime and Coastguard Agency has refused permission for a traditional Maori war boat to take The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department part in the Diamond Jubilee procession; and whether of Health (Earl Howe): McKinsey & Company has any other boats have been banned for safety undertaken consultancy work for the department to reasons. [HL15854] support the work of the NHS Leadership Team in developing the plans for managing change. McKinsey has also provided external expertise to the department, Earl Attlee: The selection of vessels to participate including analytical support. in the Diamond Jubilee pageant has been undertaken by a Flotilla Planning Group which operates as a sub The Government believe that the relationship between group to the Thames Diamond Jubilee Foundation. the department and McKinsey has been governed The sub group includes representatives from the pageant throughout by the department’s rules on corporate organisers, the Port of London Authority and the governance and by McKinsey’s policies on client Maritime and Coastguard Agency. confidentiality. The amount of funding spent on consultancy with McKinsey has fallen dramatically The group has operated a scrutiny process to consider under the current Government. In the month of May all applications for participation based on a range of 2010, the department paid McKinsey £5.2 million for criteria including, with safety as the top priority; the consultancy commissioned and completed under the suitability of each vessel from the point of view of last administration. Under the new administration, freeboard, safety equipment and standards, the number the value of new consultancy commissions from the of persons onboard and the experience and qualifications department to McKinsey for the remainder of the of the skipper. financial year 2010-11 was only £139,000. A traditional Maori war canoe (Waka) has initially been refused permission to participate in the Diamond Political Groups: Islamist Organisations Jubilee pageant. The reason for refusal is that the scrutinizers considered the proposed occupancy level Question of the boat to be too high, taking into account the Asked by Lord Patten need for emergency response and rescue services on the tidal Thames. A number of other boats have had To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the their applications to participate in the Diamond Jubilee African Islamist organisation Haram is known to pageant turned down for a variety of reasons, including have representatives in, or to have operated within, safety. the United Kingdom. [HL15713] However, I understand that the pageant organisers are The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): now in discussion with the New Zealand High Commission The UK Government assess that Boko Haram represents and New Zealand Government representatives, with a threat primarily in Northern and Central regions of the object of reaching an agreement for the Waka to Nigeria. In relation to any presence by the organisation participate in the pageant. This is likely to require the in the UK, I am unable to comment on intelligence occupancy of the vessel to be reduced to a level that is matters. considered to be safe.

Public Prayer Railways: Brighton Main Line Question Questions Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Asked by Lord Berkeley To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the ruling in the High Court concerning the saying of To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the prayers at the start of meetings of Bideford Council, closure of the Brighton main line at Balcombe whether they intend to take measures to ensure tunnel on 10, 11 and 12 February, what assessment public bodies which wish to allow members to they have made of the number of passengers whose journeys were delayed or disrupted; and whether a participate in public prayer may do so. [HL15690] reopened Lewes–Uckfield line could have mitigated the effect of that closure. [HL15772] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following I refer the noble Lord to the Written Statement that I the closure of the Brighton main line on 10, 11 and laid on 27 February 2012, made by my right honourable 12 February, whether they intend to have discussions WA 347 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 348

with East Sussex County Council regarding its Asked by Lord Bradshaw opposition to reopening the Lewes–Uckfield line as an alternative rail route. [HL15773] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether bidders for the Great Western franchise are obliged to accept the new Intercity Express trains. [HL15751] Earl Attlee: The Government have not made an assessment of the number of passengers whose journeys were delayed or disrupted on 10, 11 and 12 February Earl Attlee: The contract for the Intercity Express following the closure of the Brighton main line at Programme project assumes that bidders will use these Balcombe tunnel. In a study for East Sussex Council trains. and other local authorities in 2008 Network Rail assessed the case for re-opening the Lewes-Uckfield Asked by Lord Bradshaw line taking account of its potential as an alternative route. The study concluded that there was no economic To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their case for re-opening the line. It is for East Sussex latest estimate of the costs incurred by them or County Council to determine its policy towards reopening their consultants in procuring the new Intercity the line taking account of relevant evidence and local Express trains. [HL15752] priorities. Earl Attlee: Up to December 2011 the department Railways: Fares has incurred the following costs on employing consultants Questions and advisers in procuring the new Intercity Express trains. Asked by Lord Bradshaw Cost incurred June To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, if Costs incurred to 2010 to end of fares are not collected on a franchised train service May 2010 December 2011 and the revenue is in consequence reduced, the loss Barkers HR 0.016 0 is borne by the franchisee or is a loss to public Advertising funds. [HL15809] Capita Resourcing 0.4 0.01 Clifford Chance 0.002 0 Earl Attlee: A financial loss due to the failure to Congress Centre 0.012 0 collect rail fares is borne by the franchisee. In those Ernst and Young 0.2 0 franchises in revenue support under the cap and collar First Class 0.006 0 mechanism, the taxpayer is also impacted by failure to Partnership collect fares. Freshfields 5.6 1.53 Asked by Lord Bradshaw Jim Standen 0.01 0 Associates To ask Her Majesty’s Government who monitors Manpower - 0.22 and enforces the price of tickets in the train fares Mott MacDonald 11.8 0.80 basket. [HL15829] MWB Business 0.002 0 Exchange Nichols 3.1 0.11 Earl Attlee: Officials in the Department for Transport PWC 2.5 0.35 monitor and enforce the price of regulated fares in QCs - 0.01 train fares baskets to ensure train operators comply Reed Employment 0.06 0.03 with fares regulation. SDG 1.2 0.13 Willis 0.01 0.01 Railways: Intercity Express Trains Total 24.91m 3.20m Questions Asked by Lord Bradshaw Railways: Network Rail To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their Questions current plans for the deployment of the new Intercity Express trains; where they will be deployed; how Asked by Lord Myners long they are; and how many are electric, and how To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they many are bi-modal. [HL15750] can remove directors of Network Rail from the board. [HL15418] Earl Attlee: In the first instance the trains will be deployed on the Great Western and then the East Coast Main Lines. Earl Attlee: No. Network Rail is a private company. The Department for Transport is currently concluding Only in the event of fundamental financial failure, commercial discussions with Agility Trains, and the does the Secretary of State for Transport, as special precise number, length and type of vehicles remains member, have the option to dismiss all other members under negotiation as the contract moves towards financial of the company, becoming its sole owner with full close. power over board appointments. WA 349 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 350

Asked by Lord Berkeley In the longer term, High Speed 2 will deliver a step change both in capacity and connectivity on Britain’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Network major north-south routes. Rail will be included in their review of public sector bonuses announced on 13 February. [HL15728]

Earl Attlee: Network Rail is a private sector company. Railways: West Coast Franchise It is included in the Cabinet Office’s audit of remuneration Question arrangements because of its heavy reliance on public Asked by Lord Bradshaw funding. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Statement by Earl Attlee on 23 January Railways: Overcrowding (WS 54–5), how the new franchisee will be able to Questions respond effectively to changing passenger demand Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno over a 15 year period, if daily station stops can be reduced by up to 10 per cent but the total number To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to of station stops in a week must remain the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 6 February constant. [HL15607] (WA 30), for each passenger franchise in 2009, 2010 and 2011, (1) how many overcrowding incidents led to (a) trains being suspended, and (b) serious delays; Earl Attlee: In the West Coast franchise, the (2) how many passenger complaints of overcrowding Department for Transport is specifying the minimum were made; and (3) on how many occasions the weekly quantum of calls at each station served along Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 was found with a minimum daily quantum. to have been breached. [HL15533] Only two service groups will exist: London-North and Birmingham-Scotland enabling bidders to decide Earl Attlee: (1)(a) and (b) The Department for on the most appropriate calling patterns for each Transport does not hold this information. individual train service. (2) The Department for Transport does not hold Bidders are likely to consider issues such as this information. The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) interconnectivity in developing their proposals. The publishes statistics for complaints made to train operators flexibility of the TSR will allow the franchisee more as part of its National Rail Trends Yearbook but these freedom in reacting to demand changes without seeking do not include a specific category for overcrowding. the department’s authorisation. (3) The Department for Transport does not hold An extra 4 Pendolino 11 car trains will be available this information. ORR is the national health and to the new franchisee. Bidders will be free to propose safety authority for Britain’s railways. additions to the TSR based on any additional paths they may believe are available and the most desirable Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno use of their rolling stock. To ask Her Majesty’s Government which 10 sections of Network Rail’s infrastructure have seen the most complaints about overcrowding. [HL15535] Roads: Traffic Lights Question Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport does not hold this information. The Office of Rail Regulation Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno publishes statistics for complaints made to train operators To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they (not by Network Rail region) as part of its National consider that all sensitive and potentially dangerous Rail Trends Yearbook but these do not include a road junctions in the United Kingdom are adequately specific category for overcrowding. served by traffic lights. [HL15537] Asked by Lord Bradshaw

To ask Her Majesty’s Government by what date Earl Attlee: It is for local highway authorities to they anticipate railway capacity to equal passenger monitor and assess junctions on their road networks demand. [HL15606] and to decide the most appropriate traffic management measures for each junction. Earl Attlee: The Government are committed to The department does not hold information on numbers enhancing railway capacity to meet passenger demand of signal junctions, or the reasons why they have been where it represents value for money for the taxpayer signalised. and is affordable. However, the department provides advice to local Major investment is already taking place which will authorities on a range of traffic management measures, deliver additional capacity, and the High Level Output through publications such as Local Transport Notes Specification to be published in July 2012 will set out and Traffic Advisory Leaflets. These are available from the Government’s proposals for the period from 2014 the department’s website at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/ to 2019. topics/tpm/. WA 351 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 352

Sport: Gambling Sport: Matching Fixing Questions Questions Asked by Lord Moynihan Asked by Lord Moynihan To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, through consider that the governing bodies of sports should the whole sport plans, they intend to make financial have a direct involvement in determining the types support available to enable governing bodies of of bets that may be facilitated during the Olympic sports to develop codes of conduct relating to and Paralympic Games; and whether it is their match-fixing and suspicious betting, and for the intention to incorporate such bets into future development and introduction of education memoranda of understanding between the governing programmes on the awareness of competitors and bodies of sports and betting organisations. officials of the risks posed and the methods used by [HL15799] fixers to involve athletes. [HL15802]

Baroness Garden of Frognal: There are no plans to Baroness Garden of Frognal: It is the Government’s make financial support available through whole sport view that the greatest risk posed by betting on sporting plans. However, the Sports Betting Group, which was events, including the Olympic and Paralympic Games, set up following the recommendations in the Parry comes from bets placed overseas, often with illegal report, is developing a Code of Practice for national betting operators and not from the legitimate, regulated governing bodies (NGBs) which it hopes to roll out sector that operates in the UK market. The Government’s over the coming months. The code will provide practical independent adviser on gambling, the Gambling assistance to NGBs to help them develop an appropriate Commission, has the power to restrict the type of bets and robust integrity infrastructure suitable for their offered by operators licensed in Great Britain. However, particular sport, including sound rules and regulations based on the available evidence, it does not consider and education programmes for participants. such intrusive methods are warranted at this time. Asked by Lord Moynihan Asked by Lord Moynihan To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they they have taken to establish a legal framework in intend to introduce legislation to alter the Gambling the European Union to allow the prosecution and Commission’s regulation of betting to the point of punishment of those found guilty of sporting match consumption; and, if so, when. [HL15800] fixing. [HL15858]

Baroness Garden of Frognal: The European Council Baroness Garden of Frognal: Her Majesty’s Government of Ministers adopted a resolution on the European announced to Parliament on 14 July 2011 that they are Union Work Plan for Sport (2011-14) in May 2011. committed to requiring overseas-based remote gambling This identified the integrity of sport, in particular the operators that interact with British consumers to be fight against match fixing, as a priority theme for EU licensed by the Gambling Commission. The Government level co-operation. The UK supported the adoption of will bring forward proposals for Parliament’s consideration European Council conclusions on combating match-fixing as soon as the legislative programme allows. in November 2011. The EU Expert Group on Good Asked by Lord Moynihan Governance in Sport has been asked to develop recommendations to ″Develop a European dimension To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of the integrity of sport with the initial focus on the intend to review the definition of cheating in sport fight against match-fixing″ by mid-2012. The focus of under the Gambling Act 2005. [HL15798] the expert group’s work will be to collect evidence on To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to existing best practices at national level and to make the comments by Baroness Garden of Frognal on suggestions on concrete steps to be undertaken at EU 9 February (Official Report, col. 423), when they level on what can be done to improve the situation. expect to announce the conclusions of their assessment of the range of offences related to sports-betting Thames Tideway Tunnel integrity intended to ensure that they have the suite Questions of powers necessary to fully combat the threat to such integrity. [HL15801] Asked by The Earl of Selborne To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Baroness Garden of Frognal: The International Olympic they have made of the annual energy requirement Committee is clear we already meet the required standard to pump out the proposed 25-kilometre Thames to counter risks to sports-betting integrity.The Gambling Tideway Tunnel. [HL15774] Commission agree with that assessment, however, we will jointly consult interested bodies to ensure there The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department are no critical gaps in the offence provisions, including for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor the offence of cheating. We expect this exercise to of Holbeach): Defra’s “Costs and Benefits of the Thames reach a conclusion before Easter. Tunnel” published in November 2011 included some WA 353 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 354 assessment of the costs associated with operating the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Thames Tunnel (incorporating energy costs). Although for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor not separately identified, these were estimated to be of Holbeach): The zero draft outcome document for approximately £6.5 million per annum once the proposed Rio+20 was prepared by the UN Secretariat for the tunnel became operational. However,a detailed assessment conference. It reflects submissions from nation states, of the energy requirements associated with the operation political groups, businesses, non-governmental organisations of the tunnel would be made by Thames Water and and others. this would form part of a future Thames Water application The UK submitted its input to the UN both as part for development consent for the proposed tunnel. of the EU’s submissions and individually. As the Asked by The Earl of Selborne Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is leading the UK Government’s preparations To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment for Rio+20, this process was led by Defra, working they have made of the energy which is likely to be closely with other government departments. generated from the additional sewage sludge captured Negotiations on the zero draft have begun and will at Beckton Sewage Treatment Works if the 25-kilometre continue until the conference in June. UK officials, Thames Tideway Tunnel is constructed. [HL15775] including those from Defra, will continue to be active in discussions. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Defra’s Costs and Benefits Asked by Baroness Tonge of the Thames Tunnel, published in November 2011, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the noted that there would be benefits arising from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs energy generated from extra volumes of sewage sludge will focus on the link between population dynamics captured at Beckton Sewage Treatment Works (otherwise and sustainable development in the lead up to the lost through sewer overflows) once the proposed Thames Rio+20 United Nations Conference on Sustainable Tunnel is completed, but did not attach a monetary Development in June 2012. [HL15833] value to these benefits. Thames Water is planning to Asked by Baroness Tonge install additional facilities at Beckton to capture the energy generated from the sewage sludge and an To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they assessment of these benefits is expected to form part will use the Rio+20 United Nations Conference on of a future Thames Water application for development Sustainable Development in June 2012 to promote consent for the proposed tunnel. the connection between sustainable development and family planning. [HL15834]

Transport: Taxis Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Rio+20 is an opportunity Question to agree ambitious action to enable us to meet the challenge of global population growth and rising income Asked by Lord Laird levels, while ensuring that natural resources and ecosystems are used sustainably for our long term prosperity. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions UN Secretary General’s recent High Level Panel report they have had with Transport for London and the on global sustainability highlighted the challenge of Greater London Authority about ensuring that the sustainably providing for almost 9 billion people by market for taxi vehicles in London is open to all 2040, combined with an estimated 3 billion increase in competitors. [HL15815] the number of middle-class consumers over the next 20 years. Earl Attlee: Responsibility for taxi licensing in London The Government will call for Rio+20 to promote rests with Transport for London (TfL). As this is not access to effective contraceptive methods; universal subject to review by the Department for Transport access to reproductive health and family planning (DfT) we have not had any discussions with them advice; empowerment of women; and investment in about their policy on which vehicles to license. The education, particularly of disadvantaged children and DfT issues Best Practice Guidance to assist all taxi youth, girls and young women. licensing authorities. That guidance suggests that licensing Beyond Rio+20, the Government, through the authorities should license a range of vehicles as taxis. Department for International Development, have Ultimately though, it is up to TfL to decide which committed to ensuring that at least 10 million more vehicles they are prepared to license as taxis in London. women in developing countries have access to modern methods of family planning by 2015.

UN: Rio+20 Questions Vehicles: Semi-trailers Questions Asked by Baroness Tonge Asked by Lord Watson of Invergowrie To ask Her Majesty’s Government what input To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they did the Department for Environment, Food and Rural not commission a specific study on the potential Affairs has had to the preparation of the outcome risks to cyclists resulting from the use of longer document of the Rio+20 United Nations Conference semi-trailers prior to introducing the 10-year trial on Sustainable Development in June 2012.[HL15832] of such vehicles. [HL15652] WA 355 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 356

Earl Attlee: While the very thorough research Baroness Northover: Her Majesty’s Government, undertaken by the Transport Research Laboratory through the Department for International Development into the potential introduction of longer semi-trailers (DfID), provided $9.5 million (around £6 million) to did not specifically cite the increased risk to cyclists as the first phase of the Education Transition Fund in a subset of vulnerable road users, it studied the effect Zimbabwe in 2010-11 which supported both primary of length in accidents, as reported in the technical and secondary school education through, for example, report Specification, Performance and Safety (Author-TRL the provision of textbooks and learning materials to & Cambridge University). This report also carefully 5,670 primary school schools. considered the impact on tail swing and on blind DfID expects to provide at least a further £36 million spots. to the education sector by 2015, a majority of which The research indicates that there should be no will benefit the primary school sector. detectable difference in safety between existing trailers Asked by The Duke of Montrose and the proposed longer trailers. The purpose of the operational trials is to enable us to verify the study’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government what funding conclusions about manoeuvrability, compatibility with they provide for the support of secondary school existing infrastructure and road safety. education in Zimbabwe. [HL15738] Asked by Lord Watson of Invergowrie Baroness Northover: Her Majesty’s Government, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they through the Department for International Development, intend to commission the Transport Research provided $9.5 million (around £6 million) to the first Laboratory to research the potential specific risks phase of the Education Transition Fund in Zimbabwe posed to cyclists by longer semi-trailers; and whether, in 2010-11 which supported both primary and secondary pending such research, they will suspend the 10-year school education through, for example, the provision trial of longer semi-trailers. [HL15653] of textbooks and learning materials to 2,333 secondary schools. DfID expects to provide at least a further £36 million to the education sector by 2015, a significant Earl Attlee: No. Very thorough research has already proportion of which will benefit the secondary school been undertaken by the Transport Research Laboratory sector. on the risk to all road users, including cyclists. This Asked by The Duke of Montrose indicates that there should be no detectable difference in safety between existing trailers and the proposed To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their longer trailers. The purpose of the operational trials is assessment of the number of children in Zimbabwe to enable us to verify the study’s conclusions about currently attending primary schools; and what manoeuvrability, compatibility with existing infrastructure proportion of those eligible to attend primary schools and road safety as well as the economic impact. this represents. [HL15739]

Baroness Northover: The latest fully reliable information is about three years old. But we believe that around Zimbabwe 2.7 million children attended formal primary schools Questions in 2011 and that this represents at least 90 per cent of Asked by The Duke of Montrose those eligible to attend. Support from the UK and other donors over the next three years should help to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what funding increase those numbers and also to improve the quality they provide for the support of primary school of statistical information about the education sector education in Zimbabwe. [HL15737] in Zimbabwe. Tuesday 28 February 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Banking: Asset Protection Agency...... 105 Government Departments: Regulation ...... 111

Banking: Northern Rock ...... 105 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012...... 111

Crown Prosecution Service and Revenue and Customs Railways: Crossrail ...... 113 Prosecutions Office ...... 106 Small Businesses: Taxation ...... 114

Education: Cultural Education ...... 106 South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands ...... 114

EU: Competitiveness Council ...... 108 Women: Peace and Security ...... 115

Tuesday 28 February 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Agriculture: Eggs...... 337 Migration Advisory Committee...... 344

Armed Forces: Aircraft...... 337 National Commissioning Board ...... 344

Armed Forces: Fuel Resources...... 337 NHS: Management Consultants...... 345

Aviation: Air Traffic...... 338 Political Groups: Islamist Organisations...... 345

Aviation: Youth Movements ...... 338 Public Prayer...... 345 Queen’s Diamond Jubilee ...... 346 Bovine Tuberculosis...... 339 Railways: Brighton Main Line...... 346 Broadcasting: Satellite Transmissions ...... 339 Railways: Fares ...... 347 China: Yuan...... 339 Railways: Intercity Express Trains ...... 347 Crime: Motoring Convictions...... 340 Railways: Network Rail ...... 348 Cycling...... 340 Railways: Overcrowding...... 349 Cyclists: Penalties...... 340 Railways: West Coast Franchise...... 350 Dogs: Strays...... 341 Roads: Traffic Lights ...... 350 Enterprise Zones...... 341 Sport: Gambling ...... 351 EU: Sport ...... 341 Sport: Matching Fixing...... 352 Forestry Commission...... 342 Thames Tideway Tunnel ...... 352 Forests: Sport and Recreation...... 342 Transport: Taxis...... 353 Government Departments: Staff...... 343 UN: Rio+20 ...... 353 Greece: Defence Procurement...... 343 Vehicles: Semi-trailers ...... 354 House of Lords: Appointments Commission...... 344 Zimbabwe ...... 355 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL15282]...... 340 [HL15464]...... 339

[HL15418]...... 348 [HL15485]...... 340 Col. No. Col. No. [HL15533]...... 349 [HL15772]...... 346

[HL15535]...... 349 [HL15773]...... 347

[HL15537]...... 350 [HL15774]...... 352

[HL15559]...... 339 [HL15775]...... 353

[HL15606]...... 349 [HL15798]...... 351

[HL15607]...... 350 [HL15799]...... 351

[HL15609]...... 337 [HL15800]...... 351

[HL15652]...... 354 [HL15801]...... 351

[HL15653]...... 355 [HL15802]...... 352

[HL15670]...... 343 [HL15809]...... 347

[HL15683]...... 338 [HL15815]...... 353

[HL15690]...... 345 [HL15818]...... 344

[HL15692]...... 343 [HL15821]...... 342

[HL15713]...... 345 [HL15822]...... 342 [HL15829]...... 347 [HL15728]...... 349 [HL15832]...... 353 [HL15734]...... 344 [HL15833]...... 354 [HL15735]...... 345 [HL15834]...... 354 [HL15737]...... 355 [HL15854]...... 346 [HL15738]...... 356 [HL15855]...... 341 [HL15739]...... 356 [HL15856]...... 341 [HL15743]...... 339 [HL15858]...... 352 [HL15750]...... 347 [HL15859]...... 341 [HL15751]...... 348 [HL15863]...... 342 [HL15752]...... 348 [HL15868]...... 341 [HL15755]...... 340 [HL15871]...... 338 [HL15764]...... 337 [HL15883]...... 337 [HL15768]...... 343 [HL15888]...... 344 Volume 735 Tuesday No. 272 28 February 2012

CONTENTS

Tuesday 28 February 2012 Questions Middle East: Quartet ...... 1171 Local Authorities: Standards ...... 1173 Devolution: Wales...... 1175 Schools: Curriculum...... 1178 St Albans and Welwyn Hatfield (Boundary Change) Order 2012 Motion to Approve ...... 1181 Public Services (Social Value) Bill Third Reading ...... 1181 Scotland Bill Committee (3rd Day)...... 1181 Health and Social Care Bill Statement ...... 1268 Scotland Bill Committee (3rd Day) (Continued) ...... 1277 Written Statements...... WS 105 Written Answers...... WA 337