Wednesday Volume 573 8 January 2014 No. 100

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 8 January 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 281 8 JANUARY 2014 282

the passing in December of the right hon. Lord Roberts House of Commons of Conwy, who served the Welsh Office with such distinction for so many years. He was a doughty champion Wednesday 8 January 2014 for Wales and the Welsh language, and I am sure that many Members on both sides will regret his passing. The protections placed on health and education have The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock insulated the Welsh Government’s resource budget from the extent of reductions faced by many UK Departments. PRAYERS In addition, the Welsh Government’s capital budget will increase in real terms by 8.4% next year and 2.4% the year after. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mrs Moon: Does the Secretary of State not recognise BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS that the Welsh Government’s budget has been cut by 10% since 2010—a cut of £1.6 billion? Their capital budget to date has been cut by a third, which has DEATH OF A MEMBER impacted horrendously on front-line services. In my Bridgend constituency alone, that has meant £30 million- Mr Speaker: I regret to have to report to the House worth of cuts in front-line services. Does the Secretary the death of the right hon. Paul Goggins, the Member of State not recognise the damage of these cuts to the for Wythenshawe and Sale East. Paul was a most assiduous people of Wales? Member, serving as a Home Office and a Northern Ireland Minister in the last Government, and most recently as a distinguished member of the Intelligence Mr Jones: All parts of the United Kingdom are and Security Committee. I am sure that Members in all having to bear their part in repairing the economic parts of the House will join me in mourning the loss of damage that was sustained as a result of the downturn a colleague and in extending our sympathy to Paul’s in 2008. However, I am sure the hon. Lady would wife, Wyn, his children, Matthew, Theresa and Dominic, recognise that since 2010 the United Kingdom Government his granddaughter, Eve, and his many friends and family. have provided an additional £737 million to the Welsh Government, and it is up to the Welsh Government to Paul and I entered the House together, and I can live within their means. honestly say that I have never heard an ill word spoken of him. Labour to his core, he was, yet, the least tribal David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Given that of colleagues. Whether battling against poverty, the UK Government have given extra money in cash campaigning successfully for the victims of mesothelioma, terms to the Welsh Assembly in the form of its block working for the rehabilitation of prisoners or striving grant, does the Secretary of State find it as extraordinary for peace in Northern Ireland, Paul was the same: as I do that the Welsh Assembly has imposed drastic principled, eloquent and tireless, but unfailingly courteous, cuts on local authorities across Wales that are bound to measured and respectful. He always played the ball, lead to increases in council taxes and reductions in never the man or the woman. public services? An outstanding public servant who came into politics for all the right reasons, Paul’s passing is a loss on so Mr Jones: That is ultimately a matter for the Welsh many levels. The House has lost a valued colleague, his Government, but it is noteworthy that, whereas council constituency a faithful representative, his party an taxpayers in England are benefitting from a council tax outstanding ambassador and, above all, his family a freeze, that is not happening in Wales. Perhaps that is loving husband, father and grandfather. something the Welsh Government should be attending Prayers for Paul will also be said at the usual 12.45 to. service today in the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): May I first associate myself fully with the words of tribute to the late, greatly respected, right hon. Member for Oral Answers to Questions Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), and to the late Lord Roberts of Conwy? I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree that WALES reform of the Barnett formula is still an issue about which we are all very concerned. We in Plaid Cymru have campaigned about it for more than 25 years. It is The Secretary of State was asked— interesting that the Labour party is now in favour of reforming Barnett, which it did nothing about for 13 years. Block Grant In fact, when it was in government, it denied the existence of the problem. Does the right hon. Gentleman have 1. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): If he will any views on that issue? estimate the cumulative real-terms change to the Welsh block grant over the present Parliament. [901763] Mr Jones: It is generally recognised that the Barnett formula does not have an indefinite duration. However, The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): it is the priority of this Government to ensure that the On what is a sad morning for the House, I am sure that public finances are stabilised, and that is what we intend colleagues on both sides would also wish me to mention to do. 283 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 284

Mr Llwyd: Which does the right hon. Gentleman the wave of cheap Chinese imports of solar panels that think is worse—the self-serving preconditions set by the have come into Europe and flooded the European market, Labour party to block further devolution, or the failure so making domestic production very challenging indeed. of his Government to propose the full tax-varying powers contained in the cross-party Silk commission Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Whether power recommendations? is generated from renewable or non-renewable sources, there is an increasing problem in Wales and the rest of Mr Jones: I would always be the first to condemn the the country in getting new power sources connected to self-serving nature of the Labour party. the grid because of the shortage of power engineers. Will my hon. Friend work with the Department of Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Barnett Energy and Climate Change and the Welsh Assembly consequentials and, indeed, funding from the European Government to see how this issue can be tackled in Union have been key components of spending in Wales Wales? for many years. What representations has the Secretary of State made about Barnett consequentials and European Stephen Crabb: As ever, my hon. Friend raises a very funding to address the devastation that has occurred in pertinent issue, of which both we in the Wales Office recent days along the Welsh coast, not least in Ceredigion, and, more importantly, the Welsh Government, who but also in the constituencies of many other hon. Members? have devolved responsibility for skills, are aware. We are in discussions with the key players and stakeholders in Mr Jones: I have had many conversations with my Wales about how we can raise up a new generation of right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, power engineers to take forward the changes that we are Food and Rural Affairs. Clearly, Aberystwyth has suffered trying to effect. extreme damage as a consequence of the storms of the past few days, and I assure my hon. Friend that, if any additional funding is provided, Barnett consequentials Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): The loss of the will follow in the usual manner. Sharp solar panel factory in Wrexham, which was the biggest solar panel factory in western Europe, was a Renewables (Jobs) devastating blow to the Welsh economy. What can the Minister do to mitigate the closure, in which his Government 2. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): What assessment he are complicit? Specifically, can he help to draw down has made of job prospects in the renewables sector in UK research funding to the solar research institute in Optic Glyndwr in St Asaph? Wales. [901764]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Stephen Crabb: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his (Stephen Crabb): This Government’s recent announcements question. I am very aware of the important work being on strike prices aim to make the UK, including Wales, done at Glyndwr university, and we are in close touch one of the most attractive places to invest in renewable with the university about its work. On what we can do technologies. Our reforms will ensure that more than to mitigate the job impact in Wrexham, I encourage 30% of our electricity comes from renewables by 2020, both him and his hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham attracting £110 billion of investment and supporting up (Ian Lucas) to give full-throated support to the £250 million to a quarter of a million jobs. that the Government are putting into Wrexham to create a new prison—something on which we have yet Ian Lucas: May I associate myself with the kind to hear full support on from Opposition Members. remarks of the Secretary of State relating to both Paul Goggins and Lord Roberts, who was a true servant of Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Labour has north Wales and a lovely man? called consistently for the devolution of energy consents On renewables, I am very disappointed that the Minister for projects of up to 100 MW. I pay tribute to my hon. did not refer to Sharp solar in Wrexham, which as Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) for recently as 2011 was expanding and providing more the amendment, which was not supported by the jobs. I spoke to the chief executive of Sharp solar in Government, that he tabled to the Energy Bill. Why are Wrexham before Christmas, when he told me that this the Government opposed to the devolution of energy, Government’s catastrophic and chaotic renewables policy which would allow the Welsh Government and the had contributed to its decision not to continue National Assembly for Wales to make their own decisions manufacturing in Wrexham, with the loss of 600 jobs. on energy and renewable energy in particular? Will the Minister break the Wales Office’s silence and apologise to the people who have lost their jobs as a Stephen Crabb: I am surprised by the hon. Gentleman’s result of incompetence? question, because there has been nothing consistent about Labour’s approach to energy policy either in Stephen Crabb: I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s government or in opposition. disappointment for his constituents. The news about the Sharp job losses was a bitter blow just before Living Standards Christmas. I have been in touch with Sharp, and we at the Wales Office have spoken to them. It is just not correct to associate the decision taken by Sharp with 3. Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): What the changes to the feed-in tariff policy. If he speaks to assessment he has made of the effects on living industry experts who are knowledgeable about these standards in Wales of the measures announced in the issues, they will tell him that it is much more to do with autumn statement. [901765] 285 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 286

7. Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): What Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend is exactly right. The assessment he has made of the effects on living Government are taking those practical steps to help standards in Wales of the measures announced in the people on the lowest incomes in particular. We are autumn statement. [901769] determined that this should be a recovery for all sections of society in Wales. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb): The autumn statement set out further Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): The autumn statement measures to ensure that there is a responsible economic contained very welcome measures to reduce the burden recovery. That is the only way to achieve the sustained of business rates on small businesses in England. What rise in living standards in Wales and across the UK that efforts will the Minister make to ensure that the Welsh we all want to see. Government follow suit, to support small businesses in Wales? Susan Elan Jones: May I associate myself with the tributes that have been given? Stephen Crabb: In the autumn statement, we made I thank the Minister for his answer, but many of us resources available to the Welsh Government to take are dismayed that the autumn statement did little to exactly the same action as the Government in Westminster address issues related to poverty. Does the Secretary of have taken to help small businesses with their business State really believe that it is right that food bank usage rates. I was pleased that the Welsh Minister announced in Wales has gone up 1,400% since 2010? Surely, that is yesterday that they would take forward the cap on not acceptable. business rates in Wales. We are yet to hear whether they will deliver the £1,000 discount for small businesses that Stephen Crabb: We know that the Labour party we are delivering. discovered food banks only in 2010. Before that, Labour Members denied that they even existed. In the autumn 11. [901773] Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): May I statement and at the end of last year, we saw average associate myself with your words, Mr Speaker, on Paul wages in Wales increasing at double the rate of inflation Goggins, who was a great friend, and with the and personal disposable income in Wales increasing. Secretary of State’s words on Lord Roberts, who was a The situation is still very challenging for many households great Anglesey man? in Wales, but the overall picture is positive, and the hon. Lady should support that. Wales is a net producer of energy, a major electricity generator and a major terminal for imported gas, but Dr Francis: In my constituency of Aberavon, real people in Wales are paying some of the highest prices in wages have fallen by £2,000 in recent years and some the United Kingdom for gas and electricity. Will the 5,000 households have witnessed a reduction in their Minister look closely at the distribution companies that working tax credits. That comes against the background are passing on extra costs to the Welsh consumer to of rising energy prices, which are higher in south Wales ensure that there is a level playing field on prices? than anywhere else in Britain. Does the Minister agree—as a reasonable person, I am sure that he does—that the Stephen Crabb: The hon. Gentleman raises an important best way to address the squeeze in living standards on issue for his constituents and people throughout Wales. the people of my constituency and of Wales is to At the Wales Office, I regularly meet companies such as endorse Labour’s proposal of a freeze in energy prices, Western Power Distribution and National Grid to discuss which would benefit 30,000 households in my constituency? why many consumers in Wales are paying those higher costs, and for all kinds of reasons. If he has specific Stephen Crabb: We are going further than that by questions that he would like me to follow up, I would be delivering a reduction in energy prices of about £50 per happy to meet him to do that. household. One of the best ways in which we can equip households in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): May I, too, associate throughout Wales to face these challenging times is by myself with the Secretary of State’s remarks about Lord returning more money to their pockets. We are taking Roberts and in particular express my sadness at the 130,000 people in Wales out of income tax altogether passing of our friend and comrade Paul Goggins? I and freezing fuel taxes, so that petrol prices are 20p per worked with Paul at the Northern Ireland Office, and I litre lower than they would have been under Labour’s can say from personal experience that he was a wonderful plans. That is the way to help households meet the cost Minister, a lovely man, and a hugely dedicated Member of living. of the House. All our thoughts are with his family; everybody who knew Paul will miss him greatly. Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): As the only A moment ago, the Minister said that measures in the Welsh Conservative MP who had the privilege of serving autumn statement would cut energy bills for families in alongside Lord Roberts of Conwy, may I associate Wales by £50. That was one boast made by the Chancellor myself with the Secretary of State’s remarks? May I in that statement, and it came to fruition in Wales also associate myself with your remarks, Mr Speaker, this morning with the announcement by SSE—Wales’s about Paul Goggins, whose untimely death has come as biggest energy supplier—that it was helping families such a shock to us all? with a price cut. Will the Minister confirm what that On living standards, will my hon. Friend confirm that announcement actually means for families in Wales? the cumulative effect of the autumn statement will be that petrol prices will be 20p per litre lower than they Stephen Crabb: The action that we are taking across a otherwise would have been and that the average taxpayer broad range of measures—energy, fuel prices, income will pay £700 less? tax thresholds—means that we are helping people on 287 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 288 the lowest incomes in Wales with the challenges of the Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I am sure that the Secretary cost of living at the moment. The hon. Gentleman does of State will agree that certainty on taxation policy is not refer to the fact that we are seeing improvements in key to boosting economic confidence in Wales. Although wages in Wales and in personal disposable income, and he has told us of his vision to use the Wales Bill for a 1p he should welcome the overall positive picture that is cut to all income tax bands in Wales, the leader of the emerging in Wales. Conservative party in Wales has said that he would cut only the top band of tax. Will the Secretary of State Owen Smith: I had hoped that the Minister would clear up that complete muddle about his Government’s have made a new year’s resolution to be a little more position on taxation in Wales? straightforward with the Welsh people. The truth is that the announcement by SSE this morning, following the Mr Jones: We have made it absolutely clear that we announcement by the Chancellor that bills will be cut believe a competitive Welsh economy would depend to by £50, is actually that bills will rise in Wales this year a large extent on a competitive rate of tax. However, I by £70. It is a con trick, plain and simple, and the must remind the hon. Lady that devolution of income Minister should admit that and urge his colleagues to tax is a matter for the Welsh Government, in that it adopt Labour’s price freeze as the only way to curb would be the Welsh Government who would have to put these profiteering energy companies. forward a referendum to the Welsh Assembly. Stephen Crabb: I am sorry to say this to the hon. Gentleman, but if he talks to people in industry out Universal Credit there who understand the economics of energy, they will all tell him that what the Labour party has proposed 5. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): What recent for energy does not make sense at all and has no assessment he has made of the potential effect of the credibility. The Government are taking real practical roll-out of universal credit on people in Wales. [901767] action that helps families at difficult times, and the picture that we are seeing in Wales overall is positive. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Draft Wales Bill (Stephen Crabb): The roll-out of universal credit will reduce the historic dependency on benefits for the people 4. Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): If he will publish an of Wales by making the system simple and more flexible, impact assessment of the effect of the draft Wales Bill and by increasing the incentive to work. on cross-border areas. [901766] Ann Clwyd: Is it not a fact that repeated promises to The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): deliver the project on time and on budget have been The Government published a summary impact assessment broken yet again? Officials are warning of further delays with the draft Wales Bill, which examines the effects of and more wasted taxpayers’ money, and Ministers are the Bill’s provisions on cross-border areas. We intend to arguing among one another while families and children introduce the Bill in the fourth Session, subject to in Wales live in poverty. What way is this to run a agreement of the fourth Session programme, and a full country? impact assessment will accompany the Bill on introduction. Stephen Crabb: What universal credit represents for Martin Caton: I thank the Secretary of State for that the country, including Wales—I think Opposition Members answer, but the draft Bill provides for a lock-step approach recognise this as well—is a generational opportunity to to varying income tax bands, against the wishes of all change the welfare system better to support those who political parties in the Assembly and against the advice need it. It is exactly right that we take the time necessary of the Silk commission. The reason given is concern to get the systems and processes right to ensure that we about overall progressivity in the UK tax system. Will get the outcomes right for people in Wales. the Secretary of State elaborate on what he means by progressivity and say why he is adopting that approach? Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Department for Work Mr Jones: As the Government have made clear, they and Pensions Ministers have assured me that the online believe that the progressivity of the UK tax system application process in Welsh will be consistent with the should remain at Westminster. That is why those provisions Welsh Language Act 1993. What discussions has the have been inserted in the draft Bill. Minister had with DWP colleagues to ensure that it is also consistent with the new Welsh language standards? 15. [901777] Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): One damaging consequence of devolution has been the Stephen Crabb: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that abandonment of investment in cross-border road question. I meet regularly Lord Freud, the Minister for improvement in mid-Wales because the Department for welfare reform, to discuss the impact of the complete Transport—quite reasonably—sees no economic welfare reform agenda in Wales. The Welsh language, benefit to England in improving access to mid-Wales. specifically, is an issue that I have discussed with him. In the response to the Silk commission report, will my We want to see high-quality Welsh language availability right hon. Friend rectify that damaging consequence of for the people who need it. devolution for mid-Wales? Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is quite right, and cross-border Transport Infrastructure road routes are one unfortunate consequence of devolution, in that no overarching arrangement is in place. I have 6. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What specifically asked the Silk commission to consider that recent discussions he has had on future investment in issue, and I hope that it will address it in its report. transport infrastructure in Wales. [901768] 289 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 290

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): This Government are investing more in transport Hosting the NATO summit in Newport later this year infrastructure in Wales than any other in the last century, allows us to showcase Wales on a global stage, and and Wales is set to benefit directly and indirectly from I—and the First Minister, I am sure—will do everything almost £2 billion of investment. I will be meeting my possible to ensure that Wales capitalises on the tourism right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport opportunities it should bring. next week to see how we can take this investment further. Paul Flynn: The delegates will be guests in what is probably the best hotel in Britain, the Celtic Manor. Stephen Mosley: Like me, the Secretary of State is a Will they have the chance to visit the other major regular user of the Holyhead branch of the west coast attractions of Newport—the Roman remains at Caerleon, main line. The Department for Transport is setting up a the magnificent transporter bridge and the splendid taskforce to look at electrification of the line between Tredegar house—so that they can have a rich and Crewe and Chester. Does he agree that the taskforce unforgettable experience in Newport? should look beyond Chester and consider electrifying the north Wales main line? Mr Jones: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman that Newport—and, indeed, the whole of south-east Mr Jones: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. The Wales—has a huge amount to offer. As I have said, I proposed hub for High Speed 2 at Crewe would considerably believe that the NATO summit will do a massive amount strengthen the case for electrification of the railway line to showcase that part of Wales to the whole world. beyond Crewe and, I would hope, as far as Holyhead. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): One of the most important pieces of transport infrastructure for Wales PRIME MINISTER is the Severn bridge. After decades, tolls have now gone up again: £6.40 for motorists, and double and treble that for vans and lorries. Is it not time to recognise, after The Prime Minister was asked— all these decades, that this tax on the south Wales Engagements economy is a toll too far? Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman will know that the Q1. [901793] Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): franchise of Severn crossings will continue until 2017-18. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday After that, the maintenance of the bridge will have to be 8 January. considered, but I know that the Department for Transport is keenly aware of the issues he raises. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Mr Speaker, I hope you will allow me to pay some brief tributes. 14. [901776] Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): Good Captain Richard Holloway of the Royal Engineers was transport links are essential to provide opportunities tragically killed after being engaged by enemy fire in for investment into Wales. Will my right hon. Friend Afghanistan on 23 December. He was a highly respected update the House on the discussions he has had with soldier, and our deepest sympathies and condolences the Welsh Assembly Government on updating road should be with his parents, brother and girlfriend, whom and rail links into north Wales, especially upgrading he left behind. Our thoughts should also go to the the A55? victims of the US helicopter crash in Norfolk, about which details are still emerging. Mr Jones: I have regular discussions with both the I know that the sudden death this morning of Paul Welsh Government and my right hon. Friend the Secretary Goggins, MP for Wythenshawe and Sale East, will have of State for Transport on this issue. A business case is shocked everyone across the House. He was a kind, already being worked up, I hope, for electrification of brilliant man who believed profoundly in public service. the north Wales coast line, and I have already referred He cared deeply about the welfare of children and the to the issue of roads. importance of social work, and he brought his own clear experience to bear as an MP and Minister. He did Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): When it comes vital work as a Northern Ireland Minister, playing a to the Wrexham-Bidston line, the Secretary of State is quiet but essential role in delivering the devolution of all talk and no action. When can we expect some policing and justice powers to Northern Ireland, particularly action? at the Hillsborough castle talks. He was liked and admired across the House and always treated everyone, Mr Jones: It is rather rich of the hon. Gentleman to in whatever circumstances, with respect. He will be say that. In 13 years, his Government did absolutely greatly missed, and we send our condolences to his wife nothing about that line. He should be aware that we Wyn, his children and his family. already have a taskforce looking at this issue, and I hope the business case will be developed shortly. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in the House, I Tourism shall have further such meetings later today.

8. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): What Mr Burns: I am sure the House will want to be discussions he has had with the First Minister on associated with my right hon. Friend’s comments. In increasing tourism opportunities in Newport in the particular, Paul Goggins was a good and decent man, light of the NATO summit in Celtic Manor in 2014. and I know that he will be sorely missed on both sides of [901770] the House. 291 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 292

Yesterday, the British Chambers of Commerce found more rapidly. Although the weather has improved, river that manufacturing exports and services were growing and groundwater levels remain so high that further strongly. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this flooding could come at relatively short notice. There are shows that, even though more work needs to be done, it a number of particular concerns, including Dorset, is crucial that the Government stick to their long-term Wiltshire, Hampshire, Somerset and Oxfordshire. Given economic plan? these ongoing threats, which could last for several days to come, I urge members of the public to keep following The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for the advice of the emergency services and the Environment his comments, including those about Paul Goggins. Agency in those areas at risk. At a national level, we It is a welcome report from the British Chambers of have co-ordinated this response via Cobra, which will Commerce, but there is still a lot more work to do: we continue to meet under the chairmanship of my right must continue to reduce the deficit, create economic hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, growth and get more people into work. There should Food and Rural Affairs until the threat has passed. not be one ounce of complacency, but the report did find that manufacturing balances were at an all-time Edward Miliband: I thank the Prime Minister for that high, that exports were up and that services were growing answer. I know he and the Environment Secretary will strongly. If we stick to this plan, we can see this country keep us updated. He will recognise that some people felt rise, and our people rise with it too. that the response was, at times, too slow. In particular, will he explain whether it has become clear why it took Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the so long for some of the energy distribution companies Prime Minister in paying tribute to Captain Richard to restore power to homes over the Christmas period? Holloway of the Royal Engineers, who was killed in What steps does he believe can be taken to ensure that action in Afghanistan. His death, just two days before that kind of thing does not happen again? Christmas, is a reminder of the risks being taken on our behalf every day by members of our armed forces. He The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is showed the utmost courage and bravery, and all our absolutely right: in all these circumstances, no matter sympathies are with his family and friends. I also join how good the preparation, there are always lessons to the right hon. Gentleman in sending condolences to the learn—and there are lessons to learn on this occasion. families of the victims of the US helicopter crash in On the positive side, the Environment Agency warning Norfolk. service worked better than it has in the past and the I want to pay tribute to our friend and colleague, Paul flood defences protected up to a million homes over the Goggins. He was one of the kindest, most decent people December and Christmas period, but there are some in the House, and he was someone of the deepest negatives, too, and we need to learn lessons from them. principle. It shone throughout his career, as social worker, In particular, some of the energy companies did not councillor, MP and Minister, and it is a measure of the have enough people available over the holiday period man and his ability that he earned the respect, trust and for an emergency response, which I saw for myself in affection of all sides in Northern Ireland. The Labour Kent. We need to learn those lessons, and my right hon. party has lost one of its own and one of its best. Our Friend the Minister for Government Policy will lead deepest condolences go to his wife, Wyn, to his children, this exercise. The Energy Secretary is already looking at Matthew, Theresa and Dominic, and indeed to his the levels of compensation and at the preparedness and whole family. speed of response from energy companies. I would, however, welcome hearing from Members of all The whole country will be concerned about the price constituencies affected by the flooding what they saw being paid by those in communities affected by the floods on the ground about the lessons that could be learned and storms. I pay tribute to the work of the emergency so that we can ensure that preparedness is even better services. Will the Prime Minister update the House on on a future occasion. the number of people affected and on what action is being taken now to ensure areas that could be affected by further flooding have all the necessary support? Edward Miliband: Given the scale of risk exposed by these floods and the expected impact of climate change, will the Prime Minister also commit to the Department The Prime Minister: First, I thank the Leader of the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs providing a Opposition for his very moving words about Paul Goggins. report by the end of this month, providing a full assessment The flooding provides an extremely difficult situation of the future capability of our flood defences and flood for those affected. We should remember that seven response agencies and of whether the investment plans people have lost their lives since this began. The right in place are equal to the need for events of this kind? hon. Gentleman is right to pay tribute to the emergency services, to the Environment Agency workers, to the The Prime Minister: I am very happy to make that flood wardens and to the many neighbours and individuals commitment. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, in who showed great bravery, courage and spirit over the this current four-year period, we are spending £2.3 billion, Christmas period in helping neighbours and friends. compared with £2.1 billion in the previous period. The As the situation is ongoing, let me bring the House money is going into flood defences. As I said, in the up to date with the latest detail. There are currently 104 early December flooding, about 800,000 homes were flood warnings in place across the whole of England protected by previous flood defence work and over the and Wales. That means, sadly, that more flooding is Christmas period a further 200,000 houses were affected. expected and that immediate action is required. There Whenever there is flooding, it makes sense to look again are also 186 flood alerts, which means even further at the proposals in the programme for flood defence flooding is possible beyond what we expect to happen work and to see what more can be done. In addition to 293 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 294

Government money, we are keen to lever in more private every effort to spend within their means to avoid taking sector and local authority money, which is now possible on debt, but it is quite all right for the Government to under the arrangements. I am happy to commit, as the ignore the same advice? right hon. Gentleman asked for, to the Environment Secretary coming back to report to the House on the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has made an level of expenditure in the years going ahead. important point. We have made difficult decisions to get the deficit down and to get the country back on Q2. [901794] Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) track: difficult decisions in terms of departmental spending, (Con): Further to the Prime Minister’s remarks on the and also welfare. The Labour party is now back where it recent flooding, will he join me in paying tribute to started: Labour Members are saying that they want to Bournemouth borough council and Dorset emergency mitigate the level of cuts, and therefore they want to services, as well as local residents, in dealing with two spend more, they want to borrow more and they want evacuations in my constituency, one of which, owing to to tax more. We may be at the beginning of a new year, the River Stour bursting its banks, is still ongoing? but they have gone completely back to where they were Given the changing weather patterns we are three years ago. experiencing, what more can be done in the long term towards improving river and sea defences? Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Does the Prime Minister recognise the concern of families and The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend knows, communities about the impact of fixed odds betting 290 homes have been flooded so far in Bournemouth terminals, gaming machines on which people can gamble and the Dorset area. I agree with him that the work of up to £300 a minute on our high streets? the emergency services and the Environment Agency has been excellent. Many local authorities, including The Prime Minister: I absolutely share the concern my own, have developed very good plans and carried about that issue, and I welcome the fact that we shall be them out very competently. However, not every authority debating it in the House today. There are problems in is doing so well, and there will be lessons to be learnt. the betting and gaming industry, and we need to look at As for the Bournemouth and Poole area, about them. I think it is worth listening to the advice of the £14 million will be invested over the next five years right hon. Gentleman’s own shadow Minister who said under the Bournemouth beach management scheme. “I accept the argument that empirical evidence is needed before That should protect about 2,500 properties by 2018-2019, making” but I should be interested to hear from my hon. Friend any changes, what more he thinks can be done. “because it might just create another problem somewhere else”.— [Official Report, Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee, 27 November Q3. [901795] Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and 2013; c. 8.] Stoke Newington) (Lab): The Prime Minister will be However, this is a problem, and it does need to be aware that the majority of new housing benefit looked at. We have a review under way. We are clearing claimants are in work. He will also be aware that up a situation that was put in place under the last private sector landlords are increasingly refusing to Government, but I think that if we work together, we take tenants who are on benefit, or are evicting them. can probably sort it out. What does he say to hard-working families who face losing their homes because of his housing benefit cuts? Edward Miliband: The Gambling Act 2005 limited the number of machines to four per betting shop, but it The Prime Minister: What we say to hard-working did not go nearly far enough. More action should have families is, “We are cutting your taxes.” In April this been taken. The Prime Minister asked about evidence. year, we will raise to £10,000 the amount of money that Local communities from Fareham to Liverpool are people can earn before they start paying income tax, saying that these machines are causing problems for and I think that that will make a big difference. For families and communities. Local communities believe instance, someone earning the minimum wage and working that they already have the evidence. Should they not be a 40-hour week will see his or her tax bill fall by two given the power to decide whether or not they want thirds. these machines? However, we must take action to deal with the housing benefit bill. Housing benefit now accounts for The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has £23 billion of Government spending. When we came to made a reasonable point, but let me first deal with the office, some families in London were receiving housing facts. The first fact is that fixed odds betting terminals benefit payments of £60,000, £70,000 or £80,000. [HON. were introduced in 2001 after the Labour Government MEMBERS: “How many?”] Members shout “How many?” had relaxed gambling regulations. The second fact is Frankly, one was too many, and that is why we have that there are fewer of these machines now than there capped housing benefit. were when Labour was in office. As for the right hon. Gentleman’s last point, councils already have powers to Q4. [901796] George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): tackle the issue, and I believe that they should make full If the Government decided to mitigate the scale of the use of those powers. I am not arguing that that is “job cuts that they plan for the next Parliament, can my done”—there may well be more to do— but we have a right hon. Friend tell me how I would explain to the review under way. This is an issue for the Department students in Meon Valley receiving personal, social, for Culture, Media and Sport. If the right hon. Gentleman health and economic education why they should make has ideas, I ask him to put them into the review, but, as I 295 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 296 said earlier, he may want to listen to his own shadow first is that it was introduced and agreed by the last Minister, who, as recently as November, said Labour Government and the TUC. That is loophole “there is no evidence to support a change to stakes and prizes for fact No. 1. Loophole fact No. 2— FOBTs”. —[Official Report, Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee, 27 November 2013; c. 20.] Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): There seems to be something of a change here, but if The CBI. the right hon. Gentleman has extra evidence, he should put it into our review, and I think that we can then sort The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman shouts the matter out. “CBI”, and this is what the CBI had to say about it: “further gold plating of EU rules can only cost jobs.” Edward Miliband: Our ideas are in today’s motion, Then we have the Recruitment and Employment and if the Prime Minister wants to vote for it, we would Federation. It said this: be very happy for him to do so. He says there are “These arrangements were agreed following consultation between already powers in place, but the Mayor of London and the last Labour Government, business and the unions…Is the the Conservative head of the Local Government Labour party really saying they want to deny British temps the Association have said that local authorities do not have option of permanent employment?” the power to limit the number of machines. One in three The Institute of Directors has, of course, added to that calls to the gambling helpline are about these machines by saying—[Interruption.] It is very clear, Mr Speaker: and they are clustered in deprived areas. For example, Opposition Members want to know what we think there are 348 in one of the most deprived boroughs in about this, and this is what the IOD thinks: the country: Newham. Can the Prime Minister at least “It’s a bad idea all round…The initial response to this from give us a timetable for when the Government will decide employers would be to employ fewer people on higher wages”. whether to act? What a great start to the new year: let us come up with an idea to increase unemployment! Only Labour could The Prime Minister: We will be reporting in the come up with an idea like that. spring as a result of the review that is under way, and I think it is important that we get to grips with this. There Q6. [901798] Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) is something of a pattern. We had the problem of (Con): There is considerable interest from businesses in 24-hour drinking, and that needed to be changed and the maritime and marine sector wishing to relocate to mitigated and we have done that. We have the problems Portsmouth to make use of its facilities and skilled created by the deregulation of betting and gaming, work force. What can the Government do to send a which the right hon. Gentleman is raising today and we clear message to entrepreneurs that Portsmouth is open need to sort that out. We have also had problems, of for businesses and to facilitate businesses moving to, course, in the banking industry and elsewhere that we and expanding, there? have sorted out, so, as I said, if he wants to—[Interruption.] As I said, if he wants to input ideas into that review, I The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely think that is the right way forward. right to raise this issue. There are two specific things we can do to help Portsmouth at this time. The first is the Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Portsmouth and Southampton city deal, which we should May I pay tribute to Paul Goggins and say how much put in place, that will bring jobs and investment. Secondly, he will be missed in this House? we should emphasise the fact that the massive programme My right hon. Friend is on the record as saying he of modernising the Royal Navy, with the aircraft carriers, would very much like to see the A64 on the future roads the Type 45s and the future frigates, will by and large be list. Can he ensure that the present economy, which is based in Portsmouth, creating jobs and making sure it very buoyant in north Yorkshire, is not held back by remains one of the most important homes for the Royal congestion and poor safety on that road? Will he join Navy. But my hon. Friend is absolutely right: added to me to ensure that on his future visits he can travel much that there is a future in Portsmouth in other marine faster and in much greater safety on the A64? industries and commercial and private sector industries, and we should do everything we can to encourage The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely business to locate there. right to raise this issue. The quality and capacity of the road system in Yorkshire has been, and is, a major issue. Q7. [901799] Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and The Government have taken some important steps to Saddleworth) (Lab): I would also like to pay my help, but I know there is more work to be done. I know sympathies to Paul Goggins’s family; he was a lovely, the Chancellor was listening carefully to what she had lovely man. to say and I am sure we can look carefully at this for the The Government have cut £1.8 billion from the social future roads programme. care budget, which means nearly half a million fewer people are eligible for social care. With home care Q5. [901797] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) charges up £740 a year since 2010 and the Government’s (Lab): What plans do the Government have to close the care cap nothing more than a care con, why is the Prime loophole that allows businesses to pay agency workers Minister not being honest with older people about the less than fellow employees doing the same job? real care costs they will face under this Government?

The Prime Minister: I looked into this loophole carefully The Prime Minister: Of course, difficult decisions over the Christmas period when the Opposition raised have had to be taken right across Government spending, it, and I discovered two things about this loophole. The but if we look at health and social care, we can see that 297 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 298 we have protected the health budget so that it is going ever”, will he now agree to support the carbon reduction up in real terms, and we have put some of that health targets so that we can take real action to protect people budget—up to £3 billion—into social care to help local and property? authorities. We now want to get local authorities and local health services working even more closely together The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend that to deal with the problems of blocked beds and to ensure we are seeing more abnormal weather events. Colleagues that there are care packages for people when they leave across the House can argue about whether that is linked hospital. We can really see the benefits in the areas of to climate change or not; I very much suspect that it is. the country where this is working, and we want to make The point is that, whatever one’s view, it makes sense to that happen right across the country. invest in flood defences and mitigation and to get information out better, and we should do all of those Q8. [901800] Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) things. As for carbon reduction targets, this Government (Con): Mr Speaker, our excellent local enterprise are committed to them and we worked with the last partnership estimates that Buckinghamshire has a £12 Government to put the Climate Change Act 2008 into billion economy, with nearly 30,000 registered place. That would not have happened without our support. businesses and the European head offices of more than We also have the green investment bank up and running 700 foreign companies. They need the security of in Edinburgh, and we are going to be investing billions long-term economic policies. Given that our economic of pounds in important green projects. growth has clearly returned, will the Prime Minister assure me that, unlike the Labour party, he will not Q10. [901802] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): gamble with those companies’ future and that he will Government cuts have closed the police cells in stick steadfastly to his tried and tested long-term Bassetlaw, and I now discover that the police are having economic policies? to patrol villages using public transport. If the police are waiting at a bus stop, having arrested someone, The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my right hon. should they go upstairs, should they go downstairs, or Friend for what she says. There is a vibrant economy should they not make the arrest at all? right across the Thames valley, including in Buckinghamshire, and that is going to be based on The Prime Minister: The first thing to say to the hon. sticking to our long-term economic plan. What is Gentleman is that he did not mention the fact that particularly important for the companies that she has recorded crime in the Bassetlaw community safety mentioned is to keep our rates of corporate tax low so partnership area is down by 27% under this Government. that we attract businesses into the country and ensure [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] Yes, 27%. What is noticeable that companies want to have their headquarters here. is that every single Opposition Member is getting up That is the right answer, rather than the answer of the and complaining about the need to make reductions in Labour party, which is to put up corporation tax and to departmental spending. Frankly, this is like “Back to put a “Closed” sign over the British economy. the Future”—we are back to where we were three years ago, when we said, “You’ve got to make difficult decisions. Q9. [901801] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): A You’ve got to make some cuts. You’ve got to get the year ago, the Prime Minister said that he would make deficit down” and they lived in total denial. They are “damn sure” that foreign companies paid higher taxes, back to where they were three years ago. It may be the butintheFinancial Times at the weekend, it was shown new year, but it is the same old Labour party. that companies such as Apple and eBay were now paying even less. Why is the Prime Minister’s tough talk Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): The royal not adding up to very much? pardon granted to Alan Turing two weeks ago has finally meant justice for this national hero. May I thank The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is being a the Prime Minister, the Justice Secretary and everyone little unfair; I think we are making progress on this very over the years who has paved the way to bring this difficult issue. At the G8, we raised the importance of about? May I invite the Prime Minister to visit Bletchley having international rules on tax reporting and of more Park in my constituency to see for himself Alan Turing’s countries working together on that. Huge progress has remarkable achievements? been made, not least in the European Union, where countries such as Luxembourg and Austria, which have The Prime Minister: I absolutely back what my hon. always held out against this exchange of information, Friend has said. It is excellent news that a royal prerogative are now taking part for the first time. The OECD work mercy, which is very rarely granted, has been granted in is also going ahead apace, and that is partly because this very special case. I would be delighted to visit his Britain has put its full efforts behind this vital work. constituency to go to Bletchley Park. One of my wife’s family worked there during the war and speaks incredibly Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Paul highly of what Alan Turing was like and what he was Goggins was a decent, humble man and, in my experience, like to work with. Historians can argue about the degree, one of the most effective and fair Ministers the House but there is no doubt that the work done in my hon. has seen. He will be very sadly missed. Friend’s constituency was vital to winning the war. The Prime Minister will know that the science is clear that the extreme weather conditions affecting our Q11. [901803] Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): communities, including around the Kent estuary in Before Christmas, I was contacted by a seriously ill Westmorland, are at least in part a destructive and constituent who is waiting for a kidney transplant. He inevitable consequence of climate change. Given that he needs five-hour dialysis sessions three times a week, yet has said that this should be the “greenest Government in the Prime Minister’s Britain he has been told by the 299 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 300 jobcentre that he is fit for work. On Monday, the as a Labour councillor the Labour party did absolutely Chancellor promised to take £12 billion more from the nothing about these allegations. So perhaps next time welfare budget. Will the Prime Minister guarantee that the hon. Gentleman stands up and asks a question in there will be no further cuts to benefits for the sick and the House of Commons he will give us the full facts. disabled? Q13. [901805] Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) The Prime Minister: First, on the specific issue of the (Con): May I associate myself with the tributes to Paul hon. Gentleman’s constituent, if he wants to write to Goggins? His work on the reform of the law on child me about the individual case, I would be happy to look neglect will go on. at that. In terms of making sure that dialysis machines Last year, one of my constituents, 23-year-old are available and the expertise is available, we are putting Christopher Scott, died as a result of taking the so-called more money into the NHS, even though the advice legal high AMT—alpha-methyltryptamine. Will my right from the Labour party was to cut. The reason we have hon. Friend support my calls and those of the coroner been able to put more money into the health service is and Christopher’s family to ensure that this dangerous because we have taken tough and difficult decisions drug and others like it are outlawed? about welfare. It is because we have put a cap on the amount of money a family can get that we have been The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely able to invest in our health service; because we have put right to raise that issue. First, let me offer my condolences a cap on housing benefit—not giving £60,000 or £70,000 to his constituent’s family. As he knows with the rules to some families—we have invested in our health service. that we have, hundreds of legal highs have already been We want to see more dignity, more security and more banned, and our temporary drug orders allow us to stability in the lives of Britain’s families, and we are outlaw substances within days of them coming on the making choices consistent with that. market. However, we are not complacent and we have asked the Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs to Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Soaring car renew our definitions of controlled drugs to ensure that sales—they are back to pre-crisis levels—have helped we capture these newly emerging substances when there supply chain companies such as Sertec in Coleshill in is evidence of harm. There is more work to be done my constituency to create manufacturing jobs; 200 have here, but my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is been created in the past year, and a further 400 are absolutely on it. planned. Does the Prime Minister agree that that shows that we are successfully rebalancing the economy and that we need to stay the course with policies that are Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): May I join clearly working? the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in paying warm tribute to Paul Goggins? He was a fine, decent and honourable man who was a great friend to The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to my hon. Northern Ireland and all its people. He will be sadly Friend for what he says. I went with him to the opening missed not only in this House but throughout Northern of the new Ocado warehouse in his constituency, which Ireland. We offer our sincere condolences to his wife has generated hundreds of jobs and, as he says, is going and family at this difficult time. to be vital for the supply chain in his constituency. What these businesses want to see is a consistent economic I commend the Prime Minister and welcome the fact policy: keeping interest rates down; getting the deficit that he has made a commitment on the triple-lock down; cutting taxes for hard-working people; helping guarantee for pensioners if he is returned as Prime businesses to take more people on; and investing in Minister in the next Parliament in 2015. Will he clarify education, in skills and in controlling welfare. Those are whether he will commit to retaining the winter fuel the elements of our long-term plan, and that is what we allowance under its current eligibility thresholds and as will stick to. a universal benefit?

Q12. [901804] Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman and East Cleveland) (Lab): Two months ago, I asked for what he said about Paul Goggins. the Prime Minister whether Tory Councillor Abdul On the issue of pensions, it is important to recognise Aziz, who was suspended by the Labour party, should that we are able to make a commitment to the triple return to Pakistan, given the arrest warrant out for him lock, which has been important in this Parliament, only in connection to a brutal killing. Councillor Aziz because we are committed to raising the pension age to attended the Prime Minister’s party in October as an 66, then 67 and so on. That means that the pension invited guest. So why is the Prime Minister still hiding increase is affordable. We made a very clear pledge on whether he thinks Councillor Aziz should return to about pensioner benefits for this Parliament, and I am face justice? proud of the fact that we are fulfilling it. We will set out our plans in the next manifesto. I caution people about The Prime Minister: I will make two points to the the belief that somehow not paying, for instance, the hon. Gentleman, and I have written to him this morning. winter fuel allowance or the other benefits to those, for The first is this—[Interruption.] He will be interested to instance, paying tax at 40p, saves money—you save a hear. The first is that the allegations he mentions are very small amount of money. Yes of course we will set disputed and are currently subject to legal action, so I out our plans in the manifesto, but it is absolutely vital am limited in what I can say. But what he failed to that we say to Britain’s pensioners, “You have worked mention to the House the last time he raised this is that hard and done the right thing, and we want to give you the allegations date from the time when Mr Aziz was a dignity and security in old age.” The triple lock makes Labour councillor. I am informed that during his time that possible. 301 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 302

Q14. [901806] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) to claim, but I think what we need to do next is (LD): Is my right hon. Friend aware that at Thrunton recognise that the best immigration policy is to have not in my constituency, there has been a large fire of waste only strong border controls but an education approach carpet burning since 3 September last year? The local that educates our young people for jobs in our country residents have been suffering from the fumes and and a welfare system that encourages them to take smoke from what we now know may be hazardous those jobs. There are three sides to the argument: it is waste. The fire brigade cannot put out the fire for fear about immigration, education and welfare, and the of polluting the water supply. Can I have my right hon. Government have a plan for all three. Friend’s support in urging the Environment Agency and the local authority to get that material off the site Mr Speaker: Last but not least, I call Ian Davidson. and to give residents back their lives? Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime Minister: I will certainly look in even more Could I agree with the Prime Minister—[Interruption.] detail at the issues my right hon. Friend raises. I understand It is genuinely absurd that the leader of the no campaign the concern that it is causing him and his constituents. in Scotland cannot get a debate with the leader of the My understanding is that environmental concerns, yes campaign in Scotland, and that the leader of the yes particularly that waste might run off and pollute local campaign in Scotland demands a debate with somebody water supplies, have hampered the efforts to extinguish who does not have a vote. [Interruption.] In these the fire. I understand that the local recovery group is circumstances, does the Prime Minister agree with me meeting later this week to see what more can be done to that, in politics as in shipbuilding, empty vessels make remove the waste, and I am happy to intervene on my the most noise? right hon. Friend’s behalf to ensure that that makes progress. Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Given that the Prime The Prime Minister rose— Minister’s anti-independence campaign launched an initiative this week, encouraging people outside Scotland Mr Davidson: I am not finished! [HON.MEMBERS: to take part in the debate, why will he not debate with “More!] There is more. Without seeking to give offence the First Minister on television? to the Prime Minister, may I tell him that the last person Scots who support the no campaign want as their The Prime Minister: The calls for this debate show a representative is a Tory toff from the home counties, mounting frustration among those wanting Scotland’s even one with a fine haircut? separation from the rest of the United Kingdom, because they know they are losing the argument. They are losing The Prime Minister: I accept every part of the hon. the argument about jobs and investment. They have Gentleman’s question. I well remember when he came completely lost the argument about the future of the to Question Time not with an empty vessel but with a pound sterling, and they are losing the argument about model of the vessel that he wanted to be built near his Europe. Yes of course there should be a debate, but it is constituency, and I am proud that the Government are a debate among the people in Scotland. The leader of building that vessel and, indeed, another one like it. I the “in” campaign should debate with the leader of the humbly accept that, while I am sure there are many “out” campaign. Of course the hon. Gentleman, as the people in Scotland who would like to hear me talk lackey of Alex Salmond, wants to change the terms of about this issue, my appeal does not stretch to every the debate, but I am not falling for that one. single part. The key point that he is making is absolutely right: the reason the yes campaign head and the no Q15. [901807] Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): campaign head cannot seem to get a debate is that those In the 13 years before 2010, there was net migration of who want to break up the United Kingdom know that nearly 4 million people to the UK, mostly to England, they are losing the argument, so they want to change and in many cases as a result of work permits issued by the question. It is the oldest trick in the book, and we the then Government. Will my right hon. Friend give can all see it coming. me an assurance that this Government will keep in place their cap on the number of workers from outside Several hon. Members rose— the European Union, and encourage employers to give a chance to talented young people here? Mr Speaker: Order.

The Prime Minister: I can give my hon. Friend the Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) assurance he seeks. We should keep the cap on economic (Lab) rose— migrants from outside the European Union. We should continue with all the action that we are taking to make Mr Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman will have to sure that people who come here do so to work and not raise his point of order after the statement. 303 8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 304

Haass Talks 31 December. It proposed a new set of arrangements for regulating parades and protests, with responsibility vested for the first time in devolved hands. On flags 12.38 pm and emblems there was no immediate resolution, but The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa the document advocated the establishment of a new Villiers): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to commission to look at wider issues of identity, culture make a statement about the cross-party negotiations in and tradition in Northern Ireland. On the past, Dr Haass Belfast that came to a close during the early hours of proposed two new bodies: an historical investigations new year’s eve, but first I would like to express my unit, in place of the Police Service of Northern Ireland’s sorrow at the news that Paul Goggins has died. He was Historical Enquiries Team, to investigate troubles-related a truly excellent and effective Northern Ireland Minister deaths; and an independent commission on information and I have to say one of the kindest, most sincere and recovery. most popular Members of this House. He will be much It was of course disappointing that it did not prove missed, and I would like to take this opportunity to possible to reach a comprehensive agreement within the express my sympathy and support to his family as they timetable Dr Haass set, and it is clear that some of the deal with this shocking loss. parties have genuine concerns about aspects of what is Last May, the First and Deputy First Ministers in the final document, yet the clear message from the announced a working group consisting of representatives Prime Minister, from me and from the Irish Government from each of the five parties in the Executive to look at is that this should not be seen as the end of the road. three of the most divisive issues for Northern Ireland: The Haass process has seen much valuable work flags, parading and the legacy of the past. The initiative done and some real progress has been made. The discussions formed a key element of wider proposals to tackle managed to achieve a considerable amount of common sectarianism set out in the Executive’s strategy document, ground, which this Government believe can provide the “Together: Building a United Community”. In July, basis for continuing discussions between the parties. former US diplomat Richard Haass agreed to chair the From my many conversations with the parties, I have no group. He served as the US special envoy to Northern doubt that there is a willingness to make progress on the Ireland from 2001 to 2003. Along with his deputy, issues that continue to be a focus for tension and Professor Meghan O’Sullivan, Dr Haass began work in division. September with the aim of reaching agreement by the The momentum now needs to be maintained. I believe end of the year. that Northern Ireland’s political leadership should lose From the outset, the UK Government, along with no time in seeking a way forward that gets the parties the Irish Government and the US Administration, have back around the table to try to resolve their outstanding strongly supported the Haass process. We welcomed the differences. For our part, the Government are continuing fact that it was the parties within Northern Ireland that our dialogue with the parties and with the Irish Government had taken the initiative in seeking progress on these to see how best we can help facilitate that. I firmly complex and difficult issues as part of the work that the believe that there is still a chance to achieve a successful Government had strongly pressed them to take forward outcome from the work started by Dr Haass, and I have on building a shared society and addressing sectarian been speaking with party leaders to discuss the next division. steps. All three of the issues under consideration in the At the same time, it is important that we do not lose Haass group have the capacity sharply to divide opinion sight of other important tasks for Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland. Repeated attempts to deal with the such as the need to continue to make progress on past have produced little consensus up to now, while implementing the economic pact and boosting the economy, disputes over parading and flags have frequently led to to take forward a range of measures to build a shared serious public disorder. Some form of accommodation future and to move ahead with welfare reforms. on those issues that commands cross-party support Finally, I would like to place on the record both the could therefore have significant benefits for political Prime Minister’s and my thanks to Dr Haass, Professor stability, public order and economic prosperity in Northern O’Sullivan and their team for the dedication they have Ireland. brought to chairing the talks. I very much hope Although the UK Government were never formally a that, working together, we can now build on the valuable participant in the Haass process, we have been fully work that they have started. engaged with it from the start. I had a significant number of meetings with Dr Haass and my officials 12.45 pm remained in frequent contact with his team. During the latter stages of the talks, I spoke regularly with Dr Haass, Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): I thank the Secretary as I did with the leaders of Northern Ireland’s political of State for her statement and for giving me advance parties and the Irish Foreign Minister, Eamon Gilmore. sight of a copy. May I also thank her for her kind words The Prime Minister also maintained a close interest in about Paul Goggins? I hope that hon. Members in all the process. We worked to encourage an agreement, parts of the House will understand that I want to begin even where that meant the parties making difficult with a few words about my colleague but, more importantly, decisions to try to move things forward. good friend, Paul. The Haass process reached its final, intensive phase Paul served with distinction as a Minister in Northern of negotiation in the days before Christmas and between Ireland. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Christmas and the new year, when a number of drafts Opposition and the right hon. Member for Belfast were circulated, the final one being presented to the North (Mr Dodds) said, he earned the respect of politicians, parties shortly after midnight on the morning of officials and community activists alike for his knowledge 305 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 306 and empathy. He continued to take a close interest in all this needs to change? Finally, does she acknowledge the things Northern Ireland, and I know from my discussions negative impact that some of the welfare reforms mentioned with him that he had grown to love Northern Ireland. in her speech, particularly the pernicious bedroom tax, But Paul was a lot more than an outstanding Minister. would have on people in Northern Ireland? He was a man whose integrity, decency and values, Northern Ireland has made tremendous progress over rooted in a strong Christian faith, shone through in the past 15 years. This has been possible only because of everything he did. He treated everyone with the same the determination of people to build a better future for dignity and respect, whether a Prime Minister or a themselves and their families—but it is also thanks to constituent living on one of the poorest council estates the vision and courage of Northern Ireland’s political in Wythenshawe. leaders. There will be no turning back, but there can be Paul and I had a special bond, for many years an no standing still. That is why we hope that the First affliction, of being avid Manchester City fans. We even Minister and Deputy First Minister will convene an set up the Westminster branch of the Manchester City all-party working group as soon as possible and ensure supporters club together. that the progress that has been made can be consolidated in an agreement that attracts widespread public support I will never forget Paul’s loyalty and friendship through but will also stand the test of time. the ups and downs of our shared political journey. He will be missed more than words can adequately express. Our thoughts and prayers are with Wyn and his children. Mrs Villiers: I echo and thank the shadow Secretary of State for his words on Paul Goggins. Paul’s example I pay tribute to Richard Haass and Meghan O’Sullivan is one with which to counter the cynicism about MPs for their professionalism and commitment in striving and about politicians, because he illustrated such a for a positive way forward on some of the most challenging strong commitment to decency, integrity and public issues facing Northern Ireland. Flags, parades and dealing service. I also strongly echo the shadow Secretary of with the past are running sores that continue to inhibit State’s point that Paul retained a genuine affection for progress towards the priority objective of building a Northern Ireland. He cared deeply about it, I am sure, shared and better future. They have to be tackled in a when he was a Minister, and it was clear that he still did way that respects the insecurity and sensitivities of both so in his discussions with me as Secretary of State some traditions while balancing strong convictions with necessary time after he had ceased to be a Minister. He had strong compromises. values, which I am sure were a great support to him in It would be wrong not to acknowledge that the his work in this House and in Northern Ireland. failure of the Haass talks to reach a final agreement was The shadow Secretary of State’s remarks illustrate both disappointing and potentially damaging to public that there is a lot of common ground between Front confidence in Northern Ireland’s politicians and the Benchers on a way forward. I agree that getting the political process. However, it is important that we retain parties together and back around the table in a working a sense of perspective and that all parties in Northern group to try to resolve the differences between them is Ireland refrain from name-calling or engaging in a the right way forward. That is what I have been urging blame game. Significant advances were made that can the political parties to do. I also agree that an eventual form the basis of future progress, as the Secretary of solution needs to respect the sensitivities of the different State said. That is particularly the case in relation to traditions, but that it must also involve compromise on dealing with the past, where victims’ groups deserve all sides. tremendous credit for submissions that were coherent and compelling. It is important to recognise the progress made on the past, which is a particularly difficult issue for all of us, We want to see all parties back round the negotiating including, in some ways, the UK Government. I believe, table as soon as possible with a shared commitment to like the shadow Secretary of State, that the voice of working together on shared solutions. The UK and victims and survivors played a very positive role in Irish Governments have a crucial role to play, not only taking things forward and that any eventual solution as guarantors of the peace process but because of the must place victims and survivors at its heart. legislative and financial implications that would flow from any agreement. The shadow Secretary of State asked about the dialogue between me and the First and Deputy First Ministers. I In that context, I have a number of questions for the have spoken to both of them in recent days to urge that Secretary of State. What dialogue is taking place between a way forward be found and that the working group her and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister commence. on the potential legislation that will be required to implement any agreement? What discussions has she The legislation to implement what would be needed had with her counterparts in the Irish Government from the Haass proposals would come primarily through about the financial implications of a new infrastructure the Assembly and the Executive. The part this House to deal with the past? Can she explain why, at this would play would be, potentially, the devolution of sensitive time, she has weakened the capacity of the parading. The mechanics of setting up the new bodies newly appointed Parades Commission by reducing the would be a matter for the Assembly and the Executive. number of commissioners and the number of hours I have kept in close touch with Eamon Gilmore and that each commissioner will be expected to work? While the Irish Government—both before and after the talks I acknowledge her contribution during the course of broke up—on matters relating to the past and all the the Haass talks, does she understand that at this time of other issues under discussion in this process, including a uncertainty the widespread perception of disengagement discussion on finances. It is very clear that the UK by the UK Government is causing concern across a Government face a significant deficit, which means that wide spectrum of opinion in Northern Ireland, and that we have to take care with public spending. We expect 307 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 308

[Mrs Villiers] Mrs Villiers: I agree with my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Committee. Four months was a very tight timetable the primary resource for the new mechanisms to be in which to reach agreement on issues that some would found from within the block grant to Northern Ireland, argue have been a problem in Northern Ireland for very but we will, of course, always consider further applications many years—some would argue that some of the issues for funding from the Northern Ireland Executive if they date back hundreds of years in terms of identity. It was wish to press ahead with the measures. We will, however, always going to be a tough ask to meet that timetable. I be constrained in what we can offer by the need to agree that the solution now is to resume those discussions tackle the deficit we inherited. between the parties. Although it is clear that some of On reducing the number of commissioners, I strongly the parties have expressed concern about the final draft believe that we have a strong new Parades Commission of the Haass proposals, none of them is walking away. that will do important work in the months to come. I They are all saying that the process should continue and am sure we all hope that a reformed system will take they all seem to be prepared to engage in that dialogue. over in the devolved space if the agreements are eventually I urge them to do so. signed off by all the parties, but in the meantime I am sure the current Parades Commission will do an excellent Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): May I associate myself job. with the remarks of the Secretary of State and my hon. I wholly refute the perception of disengagement by Friend the shadow Secretary of State about Paul Goggins? the UK Government. The UK Government are strongly As a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, I engaged with the Haass process and with Northern can testify to the fact that Paul’s work was instrumental Ireland. We brought the G8 to Northern Ireland—one in bringing forward both the political and the peace of the most successful events ever for Northern Ireland— process in Northern Ireland. Like many others in this and we followed it up with a strong investment conference. House, I have lost a good friend. We signed an economic pact that sees us working more Even though the Haass talks have temporarily ended, closely than ever with the devolved Government, including what is the Secretary of State’s plan to engage her civil the commitment to meet the £18 billion of capital servants and Irish civil servants in work on the specific spending, and we are determined to press ahead with issues that are still a matter of controversy, so that those supporting the Executive in their moves on a shared officials will be able to give advice, wisdom and evidence future. We have responded when the Executive have to the working parties that will soon be set up? asked us—for example, to devolve air passenger duty for long-haul flights. We stepped in to assist in the grave Mrs Villiers: My officials have worked with Irish situation we inherited from Labour with the Presbyterian Government officials throughout the process, just as I Mutual Society. We are continuing to work on the have kept up regular contacts at political levels. We also devolution of corporation tax. There is a whole range stand ready to provide advice, help and support to the of ways in which this Government are working closely Executive in taking these matters forward. The role of with the Northern Ireland Executive for the benefit of officials will obviously be crucial in coming up with a the people of Northern Ireland. solution that is workable and practical and that can be On welfare reform, we will continue our discussions implemented. with the Northern Ireland parties, but we believe that the compromises agreed with Minister McCausland are Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I also associate appropriate and will help adapt the welfare reform myself with the remarks of the Secretary of State and system to the particular needs of Northern Ireland. the shadow Secretary of State about Paul Goggins. I did not know him very well, because I was elected only Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): As a few years ago, but the intrinsic fairness and kindness Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, he showed me as the Liberal Democrat Front-Bench may I join the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister spokesman on Northern Ireland was tremendously helpful. and others in expressing our deepest sympathies to the On the Haass report, I appreciate the Secretary of family of Paul Goggins, who has so shockingly passed State’s statement. We all know that it was very challenging: away? He was a thoroughly decent and honourable the Haass commission had about 100 meetings, met man. When he was a Minister, I had the pleasure of 500 people and received 600 submissions. It went into shadowing him for about three years, and I have to tell the process very strongly, but we have reached a point the House that he was a very competent Minister. I say where we are stuck on the two or three things that I without any fear of contradiction that without his suspect most Members knew we would be stuck on. Are contribution I do not think we would be here today at there any plans to bring Dr Haass and his team back to this advanced stage of the Northern Ireland peace unlock the logjam at an appropriate time? process, so highly do I value his work. The Secretary of State is, of course, right in saying Mrs Villiers: In my conversations with Dr Haass I that it was the Northern Ireland parties that initiated certainly floated the idea that he might come back in the Haass process. I think Dr Haass was given a rather January, but that looks unlikely. He has professional impossible task of finding quick solutions to problems commitments that would make it very difficult for him that have existed for a long time. Is it not important now to re-engage in the same way, but I am sure he will that those discussions between the parties in Northern continue to take a close interest in matters as they go Ireland and, furthermore, with community leaders in forward. It is now important for the First and Deputy Northern Ireland continue, because such engagement is First Ministers to get the parties together around the as important as any solutions that may come from those table. They got very close to getting over the line in discussions? the run-up to the final discussions. Even the leader of 309 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 310 the Ulster Unionist party was saying that perhaps 80% Mrs Villiers: Yes. It is clear that parades in particular, of what was on the table might be acceptable. Clearly, but also flags, have frequently played a part in triggering that party has serious concerns with the proposals, but disgraceful scenes of rioting. If we can build more it is indicating that it will continue to take part. Continuing consensus on those issues, it will have tremendous benefits this dialogue is the way forward. for the police, who have to deal with public order problems, as well as for inward investment, because few things put off inward investors more than political Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The breadth instability and street violence. and depth of the outpourings of grief and tributes to Paul Goggins are a testament to the integrity and standing of the gentleman. I am sure that other right Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Will the Secretary of hon. and hon. Members on these Benches will want to State tell us whether her law-abiding, decent constituents add their own personal tributes. in Chipping Barnet would have accepted the final Haass document, given that it equates victims of terrorism I join the Secretary of State in thanking Dr Haass with terrorists, diminishes the role of terrorism right and Meghan O’Sullivan. I also thank our own talks throughout the troubles and seems to many people to team, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan have ended up as a very one-sided attempt to change the Valley (Mr Donaldson), Jonathan Bell—a junior Minister history of what really went on over the past 30 years? in the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister—and Rev. Mervyn Gibson, who put in many Mrs Villiers: I would hope that my constituents see hours over the holiday period, along with others in the Haass proposals, as I do, as a workable basis for other parties, to try to make progress. continuing discussions. It is obviously disappointing that the proposals are not yet in a state that means all I welcome what the Secretary of State said in her five parties can sign up to them, but the reality is that statement. She will know that, under the terms of getting any kind of solution to these issues will be very reference, it was for the parties themselves to come to an difficult. agreement on a set of recommendations. At the final plenary, four of the five parties could not support the The issues about the past, in particular, are very final draft from Dr Haass in full, but it remains a sensitive, not least because of anxieties about whether necessity to try to make progress and for agreement to any process might end up with a disproportionate focus be reached among the parties in Northern Ireland. In on state activity. We must, however, recognise the efforts our view, substantial progress has been made, although made by Dr Haass and the participants in the working we are not there yet and there remain significant problems group to try to ensure that there are safeguards to in certain areas. As the hon. Member for Tewkesbury prevent processes on the past ending up as one-sided, (Mr Robertson) said, these issues have been around for which is what the hon. Lady is concerned about. many decades, if not centuries. Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): The Haass I also welcome what the Secretary of State said about discussions took place during a backdrop, in the run-up the need to continue the process through talks between to Christmas, of increased efforts by dissidents to disrupt the parties. Will she do everything possible to ensure economic life in Northern Ireland. What recent discussions that those parties that have indicated an unwillingness has my right hon. Friend had with the Chief Constable to continue to talk to try to resolve these problems about the ongoing and future threat from dissidents? come back to the table and join the rest of us in trying to move Northern Ireland forward? Mrs Villiers: The attacks before Christmas by dissident republicans were disgraceful. It was particularly despicable Mrs Villiers: I certainly give the right hon. Gentleman that they were deliberately aimed at places where people that assurance. It is welcome that the Democratic Unionist were doing their Christmas shopping or were out for a party has signalled very strongly that although it has festive drink, while the attack on commercial targets reservations about aspects of the Haass proposals, there was deeply unpleasant. The message for these dissident is much that it can support and that it wants the process republicans is that they will not succeed. These attacks to continue. Of course, as the largest party in the are utterly pointless. They are disgraceful and they have Executive, it will be crucial in taking these matters been condemned almost universally across Northern forward. Ireland. They have no political support and will achieve nothing. I am certain from my many conversations with Like the right hon. Gentleman, I want to thank not the Chief Constable, the most recent of which was this only Dr Haass and Professor O’Sullivan, but all the morning, that the Police Service of Northern Ireland participants in the working group. At one stage, Dr Haass will leave no stone unturned in bringing to justice those told me rather wearily that he had not appreciated that responsible for the attacks before Christmas. politicians in Northern Ireland were quite so nocturnal. There were certainly many all-night sittings, so the stamina of all those taking part is much appreciated. Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I, like others, want to express my deep regret and sympathy to Paul Goggins’s family. Paul exhibited many good Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I thank qualities, if not every good quality, that one would my right hon. Friend for her statement and for being expect to be found in a decent human being—integrity, continuously involved throughout the Haass process. humility and genuine friendship, as well as a deep sense Will she continue to work with the parties, because it is of social justice, to name but a few. I first met him when vital for Northern Ireland to get inward investment, he was a Northern Ireland Minister. He was outstanding and the sight of such public disorder on the issues of because of his sheer decency and sheer human qualities, parades and flags is perhaps a significant deterrent? and he played a very positive role, as other hon. Members 311 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 312

[Dr Alasdair McDonnell] to encourage people to take part in the truth recovery process, their representations and statements would not have already said. In time, after I entered the House, he be admissible in subsequent criminal proceedings. That became a firm friend, a trusted source of good advice is not to say that subsequent criminal proceedings could and a confidante. I have been very moved because, right not go ahead on the basis of other evidence. It was clear across the House today, we all miss Paul, and we will from what was said by pretty much all the political miss him even more in future, with his good counsel and parties and the public reaction to the statement of the his wise advice. To his colleagues, friends and family, I Attorney-General that the option of prosecution must add my condolences and sympathy. It is a sad day for all be kept alive. The proposals that are on the table do not of us. seek to take that option away. I welcome the Secretary of State’s endorsement of the significant progress made in the Haass talks. I Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): May I take this express my appreciation for her involvement and that of opportunity to express my sympathy to the colleagues, the Prime Minister in the later stages. The Secretary of friends and family of Paul Goggins? He had an interest State will recall that when the Haass process has been in Northern Ireland and a concern for its people that mentioned on previous occasions, I have urged a much extended far beyond his tenure as Minister of State. greater involvement at an earlier stage by both the That has been clear to me in my work in this House and, British and Irish Governments to ensure a positive previously, as an Assembly Member. He was also a true outcome and to put in place a determined implementation gentleman. He displayed integrity, generosity and grace and legislation programme. The process was not just in his public service, but also in his private dealings. The about the talks themselves and whatever conclusion House is much poorer for his passing. they came to; there needed to be a major follow-through As a participant in the talks process in Northern process, and that is still required. Ireland, I pay tribute to Dr Richard Haass, Professor I believe that a lot has been achieved—the glass is not Meghan O’Sullivan and their team. They have shown half full; it is three-quarters full—but may I now urge commitment and dedication to the process over the past the Secretary of State to ensure that her Government six months and not just in its latter weeks, when it engage even more intensively, hands on and proactively became incredibly intense. Richard Haass was clear with the parties, the Irish Government and Richard throughout the process that the issue with finding a Haass and his team, and take the lead to ensure the resolution was not the shortness of time, but the will to implementation of the considerable progress that has make the necessary compromises. Does the Secretary of been made, the initiation of legislation where it is required State agree that any continuation of the process must and the resolution of the outstanding issues? remain focused on taking the difficult decisions, rather Mrs Villiers: I certainly give the hon. Gentleman the than avoiding them while creating an illusion of activity, reassurance that I will continue to be very strongly if it is to deliver on the hopes that the public have involved with the parties, the Irish Government and invested in the Haass process? Dr Haass, as well as with friends across the Atlantic who have taken a close interest in the process. I thank Mrs Villiers: I agree with the hon. Lady. To achieve the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about my success on any of the issues, particularly on the past, involvement and that of the Prime Minister. compromise is needed. Compromises have sometimes The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the issue of been difficult in the history of Northern Ireland. They implementation. Even had there been full agreement on will no doubt be difficult on these issues too, including new year’s eve, there would still be a lot of work ahead for the UK Government. We are very clear that if the to turn Dr Haass’s proposals into legislation and into parties are prepared to make compromises to make new institutions operating on the ground. The UK progress, the UK Government will back them. Government, the Northern Ireland Office, officials and I are very keen to work on the practical implementation Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I associate myself process. Not least because of our current responsibilities with the remarks that have been made about the late in relation to parading, we are very keen and eager to Paul Goggins. He was a man of profound Christian input into the process of implementing any agreement belief and that guided him in his work. That is an if, as I hope, it can be agreed between the parties. example to us all. I add my condolences to his family. The Haass talks have reached a stalemate. One of the Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Speaking as someone drawbacks of setting a deadline is that once it has who has lost friends, and not just soldiers, in Northern passed, unless agreement has been reached, the impetus Ireland—as have so many friends who represent Northern can be lost. The advantage of these talks appears to be Ireland constituencies—how can my right hon. Friend that they were chaired by an independent organisation balance the competing claims of the requirement to that brought true independence and experience to the find out what happened to so many people who were process. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that there cruelly murdered and the requirement to encourage are no plans to introduce a further set of people as people to come forward, perhaps with limited liability, independent arbiters of the talks and that every effort so that we can find out what happened to the many will be made to bring back Dr Haass and his team at an people who have simply disappeared in Northern Ireland? appropriate moment when the parties have reflected on Mrs Villiers: Clearly, those matters were at the heart the work that has been done? of the work of the political parties and Dr Haass. My hon. Friend will be aware that the idea that was floated Mrs Villiers: As I said, I am not sure that Dr Haass is of a general amnesty was almost universally rejected. in a position to come back and perform the role of The current proposals include a limited immunity, whereby chairman, but I hope that he will continue to engage. 313 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 314

Introducing another independent chairman is an option I am grateful to the Secretary of State for setting out for the First and Deputy First Ministers. I am not sure clearly the progress that has been made in the Haass that it is needed at the moment, but it is well worth their process. Does she agree that, although further progress consideration. I hope that we have not reached a stalemate. is required, there must be no let up in the steps to That is not how I would characterise the situation. improve economic regeneration in the region? There is still an opportunity for the political parties to grasp. They can do that by getting back around the Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. table to continue the discussions. Rebalancing the economy in Northern Ireland by boosting the private sector is crucial. That is why we are pressing Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Thank you for ahead with implementing our side of the economic calling me, Mr Speaker. It is so kind of you. With your pact. I will continue to work with the Northern Ireland permission, I would like to put on the record a personal Executive in taking forward their obligations in the tribute and a tribute on behalf of my constituents to economic pact. I am delighted to say that the first Paul Goggins. The news of his sudden death was profoundly tranche of the new capital borrowing powers that have and deeply shocking not just to this House, his colleagues been granted as a result of the pact will in due course and most of all his family, but right across Northern support a new shared education campus in Lisanelly, Ireland. Paul Goggins had hefty and important which will give many more children the chance to share responsibilities in the Northern Ireland Office. He was part of their education with kids from different community an exceptional Minister, particularly with regard to backgrounds and traditions. health and security. It will be widely regretted that he has died at the young age of 60—just 60. However, in Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): As those 60 years, he achieved an enormous amount. He the Secretary of State will know, 90% of the deaths in has left a very positive legacy in Northern Ireland. As Northern Ireland during the troubles were caused by has been mentioned by other right hon. and hon. Members, paramilitary and terrorist organisations, and yet much he had a deep personal Christian faith. He lived that of the focus is on what the state did. We cannot have a faith in the manner in which he treated everyone, irrespective process that is disproportionate, that seeks to rewrite of their political views or their faith. the history of the troubles and to sanitise terrorism, and that ignores the needs of the vast majority of innocent I welcome the statement by the Secretary of State for victims who were murdered by the terrorists. Northern Ireland. I welcome the fact that an early opportunity has been taken to report to this House on Mrs Villiers: I certainly agree that the processes on the Haass talks. I draw attention to the fact that the the past need to be balanced and must recognise the Secretary of State did not suggest in her statement that proper attributions of responsibility for the deaths during if the parties cannot agree among themselves, the British the troubles. I acknowledge that that is one of the most and Irish Governments will impose the Haass proposals important things to get right. I am impressed by the on the parties and the people of Northern Ireland. That degree of progress that has been made by the political suggestion has been made in Northern Ireland. Will she parties. They have come a great deal closer to an agreement take this opportunity to reject it clearly and frankly, on the past than I ever expected. I hope that in due because that would not be acceptable? course we will reach an agreement and a conclusion on that matter. Mrs Villiers: The hon. Lady is right that it would be very difficult to impose a solution from above. I agree Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): On the proposals perhaps with the calls on both Governments to continue to to establish a common flag for all communities representing engage, encourage and facilitate. Ultimately, the best Northern Ireland, will my right hon. Friend say a little way to resolve these issues is through cross-party agreement more about how the commission on emblems will operate, within Northern Ireland. It was important to give this and tell us whether there is any time scale for it to House the chance to debate the situation at the earliest report? opportunity so that we could send a strong message of support to Northern Ireland’s political leadership in Mrs Villiers: The timing envisaged for the commission their endeavours to reach an agreement on these issues, on identity and flags is around 18 months. I have always which have caused so much tension over so many years. thought that there might be scope for the development I share the hon. Lady’s sentiments on the shocking of new shared emblems, and I hope that that will be nature of the news about Paul Goggins. Even now, a considered seriously by the new commission, if it is set few hours after learning the truth, it is very hard to up. I genuinely think that there are merits in trying to believe that it has happened. This place will be all the have a broader conversation with civic society about poorer for his absence. moving forward on the issues of culture, identity and tradition that have proved so intractable up to now. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I would like to express my sadness at the passing of Paul Goggins. As a Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): May I near neighbour, I learned a lot from him and his approach thank the Secretary of State for her statement, and to politics. He was an ardent campaigner and obviously associate myself with the remarks about the late Paul a great Minister, but he was also an outstanding and Goggins? He represented the epitome of compassion, dedicated parliamentarian. I learned a lot from his humility, decency and integrity in this House, and during approach to tackling the problems faced by victims of his time as a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office mesothelioma and from the way he helped Manchester and the Home Office. airport to have a vibrant future. He was an outstanding On the Haass talks, I pay particular tribute to my parliamentarian and he will be missed locally. hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), and 315 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 316

[Ms Margaret Ritchie] Irish Republic on an equal footing with our sovereign flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and to Alex Attwood and Joe Byrne, who formed a sterling Northern Ireland. There is one sovereign flag in Northern team at the talks on behalf of the SDLP. In view of the Ireland—the Union flag. As a professed Unionist, will compelling need of victims and survivors, it is important the right hon. Lady assure me that the Government will that an implementation plan is put in process. Will the never support any attempt to equate the sovereign flag Secretary of State and the Minister of State take an with the flag of the Irish Republic, a neighbouring active interest in ensuring that immediate discussions country? take place with the five parties to ensure that legislation, implementation and a resolution are found for those Mrs Villiers: As the sovereign flag of the United such as two people I talked to last week: one whose Kingdom, of course the Union flag must have special father was killed as a result of the activities of the status in Northern Ireland. One of the challenges that military reaction force; and a widow whose husband Dr Haass encountered was that it seemed difficult to was a policeman in Northern Ireland? Those people distinguish symbols of identity from symbols of sovereignty came from different perspectives, but they were suffering when it came to an expression of Irishness. It is important none the less due to their tragic and sudden loss. that consideration continues on those matters, and I wholeheartedly endorse the hon. Gentleman’s assertion Mrs Villiers: I reiterate the tributes paid to all participants that, of course, the Union flag will always have a special in the working group, including the right hon. Member status as the national flag as long as Northern Ireland for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson). Despite the fact that remains part of the United Kingdom. The Belfast an agreement has not yet been reached, a remarkable agreement makes it clear that Northern Ireland will stay amount of consensus has developed between the parties. part of the United Kingdom unless and until its people We must build on that, and ensure that this is not a vote otherwise. wasted opportunity and that the parties can get together again to resolve the remaining issues that divide them. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): In the absence of a On an implementation plan, as I have said already at long-term solution on parading, does the Secretary of the Dispatch Box, if agreement is forthcoming, of course State believe that the new Parades Commission has the UK Government would be keen to provide support sufficient confidence from all sides in Northern Ireland and advice on the practicalities of implementing the to ensure that this year’s parading season does not end proposals across the three areas. in the awful scenes that we saw last year? Does she think that any action is required on her part to ensure that Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given what such scenes do not happen again? has been said, it appears that no one is particularly surprised that the talks have not worked out, and that Mrs Villiers: It is timely to remind the House of the no one in particular is being blamed, as these issues are vital importance of obeying Parades Commission difficult and go back over a long period. Indeed, there is determinations. We have had an extensive debate about a good deal of satisfaction that this much progress has reforming the adjudication system for parades, but unless been made. It also appears that independent chairmanship and until an agreement on that is reached and implemented, worked. Given that Dr Richard Haass is no longer the Parades Commission is the lawfully designated authority available, it would be a shame to lose the momentum and its determinations must be obeyed. and the progress that has been made, so should not the Secretary of State encourage the Executive to appoint a Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I thank you, new independent chairman and keep the process going Mr Speaker, for what I thought was an extraordinary, while it is still warm so that we can cross that final moving and wholly appropriate tribute to our colleague, finishing line? Paul Goggins, at the beginning of this sitting. Paul was inspired by his Christian faith, and all hon. Members Mrs Villiers: As I have said, that issue is well worth will hope that that same faith will be of comfort to his considering, and this shows one of the values of this family at this time. early opportunity to debate in the House where things Does the Secretary of State believe that the difficulties stand with the Haass process. No doubt the First Minister she has charted ahead can be overcome by the downgrading and Deputy First Minister will be given a read out of of the Parades Commission’s work to just one day a our proceedings, and I will certainly discuss with them week? Is she confident that that is an appropriate work the possibilities of appointing an independent chair, if load? they think that appropriate. Mrs Villiers: I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I join Parades Commission is not being downgraded and that my right hon. Friends the Members for Lagan Valley it will be able to complete its work. We have a strong (Mr Donaldson) and for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), as new team of parades commissioners, and I reiterate the well as other hon. Members, in their tributes to Paul importance of ensuring that their determinations are Goggins. I knew him personally and found him to be obeyed and that the rule of law is respected. someone who was set apart from many others. He was a person of great grace and tremendous integrity, and he Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): was approachable by everyone, irrespective of which May I join in the tributes to Paul Goggins? He was an side of the House they were from. outstanding example of a humanitarian, as well as an I also thank the Secretary of State for bringing to the assiduous constituency Member of Parliament. Paul House her report on the Haass talks. She will be acutely and I worked closely a few years ago when he was a aware of attempts by republicans to place the flag of the Northern Ireland Minister on the re-establishment of 317 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 318

Magilligan prison in my constituency when there was a individual in this House, but the fact that he has left a serious threat of its closure. He assured me at that stage legacy that we can all be proud to have been part of. that if a case was made, he would overrule some of the In light of the fact that terrorist organisations have decisions that were going to be made in the higher no track record of telling the truth about their past echelons of the civil service. He was, as we all know, a activity, does the Secretary of State accept the genuine man of his word, and he did that, and I pass on my fears that any process that is designated to discover sympathies to his family and his wife. truth has the potential to be one-sided if the forces of We all welcome the Secretary of State’s update to the law and order are subjected to full investigation and the House on progress regarding the Haass talks. Given the terrorists remain unlikely to the tell the truth? outstanding differences between the political parties to which she refers, does she agree it is essential that all Mrs Villiers: It will certainly be important to ensure parties get together as quickly as possible to try to that, when agreement is ultimately reached, the procedures hammer out those outstanding differences so that we on the past are as balanced as they can be. I well get a widespread and comprehensive consensus, and understand the concerns expressed by the hon. Member can implement—voluntarily—a consensus across the for Vauxhall and others about the importance of ensuring divide that everyone in Northern Ireland will endorse? that the process does not lead to attempts to rewrite history or focus exclusively on deaths when the state Mrs Villiers: Yes, I agree with the hon. Gentleman on was involved, and I know that that is something on that. It is essential that all parties come together to try which the parties have been focused during the discussions. to resolve the outstanding differences between them. It is important for them to continue to work on that as they try to move forward from what is currently on the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Mr Speaker, may I table to what I hope, in due course, will be a concluded thank you for speaking for each of us in your very agreement. articulate tribute to Paul Goggins’s ethic and the esteem that he earned in this House and beyond? Paul was not Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Given the extremely a “selfie” politician. His question was not who would deeply rooted nature of the issues involved in talks get the credit for a measure or change, but who would about culture, tradition and identity, what role does the get the benefit from it. Those of us in Northern Ireland Secretary of State anticipate that there will be for who benefited from his work are right, on this special schooling and education in helping to resolve some of day, to give him credit for so much of the progress that those issues in the much longer term? he helped to build. Will the Secretary of State affirm clearly that, in Mrs Villiers: The hon. Lady makes a fair point. respect of the past, the Haass paper has more balance Involving young people in a debate about emblems and and much more value than the hon. Member for Vauxhall cultural identity could be very positive. I would have (Kate Hoey) sadly tried to suggest? Will the Secretary thought that it would be excellent if the commission of State also affirm that the whole Haass process, and engaged with children and young people to get their the papers we now have, do have the makings of a ideas on how to express identity in Northern Ireland in worthy, worthwhile and workable advance if the parties a way that is respectful to other views and communities. agree to work on that, and that what we need to do at this stage is not just maintain working contact between David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the the parties, but have a clear and cogent working compact Secretary of State for her statement and join all hon. so that we deal with not only those areas of difference Members in their tributes to Paul Goggins. In the but, more importantly, those areas on which we have journey of life, we all meet people who leave a lasting reached an understanding that is better than we have impression, and Paul Goggins certainly was one of ever had before? those people. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family at this time. Mrs Villiers: I think that I can broadly agree with the Further to a point made by my right hon. Friend the hon. Gentleman on much of that. While I understand Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), does the the concerns of the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Secretary of State accept that there can be no fudging Hoey), I think that what is now on the table is not as of the distinction between those who were the terrorist unbalanced as she fears—yes, I do think that it has the perpetrators of violence in Northern Ireland over the makings of a workable solution. These proposals can past 40 years and those victims who were on the receiving be the basis for further discussions. Clearly, they are not end of their violent deeds, and that, to that end, elements there yet, because five parties have not agreed, but they of the Haass text were deeply unsatisfactory? certainly form a workable basis for moving forward. Mrs Villiers: The UK Government have always made Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): May I also add my it clear that we would never find it acceptable for comments about Paul Goggins? I met him in my previous someone to draw equivalence between those who sought life as a councillor on Ards borough council, when I to undermine and destroy the rule of law through found him to be compassionate and interested in the terrorism and those who sought to uphold it as members issues that we were bringing to his attention. When I of the security forces. However, a lot of progress has had the privilege of being elected to this House, he was been made on the proposals about the past—far more one of the first to shake my hand and welcome me. than most people expected. To make that progress and There was not a time when he would not come over and build up such a degree of consensus in just four months say a word of encouragement over your shoulder. I very is encouraging. Some elements of what is in the Haass much appreciate not just his contribution to me as an proposals are difficult, so I understand concerns about 319 Haass Talks8 JANUARY 2014 Haass Talks 320

[Mrs Villiers] final text, and it will remain right to say no until it gets to a point when it is able to say yes to something that we them, but this is an important opportunity to grasp and can recommend to our community. I believe that we did there is scope for compromise. The UK Government the right thing, and we will continue to do the right are prepared to be part of that compromise and we thing when it comes to saying no at the right time and encourage the parties to continue to work on these saying yes when it is appropriate to do so. matters. The Secretary of State said that it was disappointing that it had not proved possible to reach an agreement Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): May I also join on an historical investigations unit to take the place of in the tributes to Paul Goggins? Unlike many Ministers the HET. Why would she try to fund such a unit, with who, when they leave Northern Ireland, forget all about its panoply of lawyers and additional experts, when the place, Paul was always interested and wanted to there is a shortfall of £60 million, starting in 2015, for hear what was going on, which I think was an indication the current arrangement, which is the cheaper option, of the genuine interest he had in the job he performed in and when there is an additional shortfall of £36 million Northern Ireland. for security? Will she commit now to finding the money Given the wide range of opinions and the deeply held to allow the police to function for the next five years, views that were discussed in the Haass talks, does not rather than pursuing this fanciful idea of an historical the Secretary of State agree that no deal was better than investigations unit? a deal that would have exacerbated the divisions in Northern Ireland? While, as politicians and as a society, Mrs Villiers: It is important that the parties continue we have to continue to work at the issues, does she not to work to find an agreed position on all these issues. I agree that the best way of undermining those who want welcome the statement from the First Minister that he to wreck Northern Ireland is to change our education feels able to support substantial parts of the Haass system, get young people into jobs and have a robust proposals. The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the economy, rather than implement quick-fix solutions issue of costs, which would need to be resolved in the that simply involve more quangos and legislation? event of an agreement. As I have said, the UK Government would expect the Northern Ireland Executive to fund Mrs Villiers: If any deal is to work, it is important that primarily from within the considerable resources that it commands a broad consensus. If we are to reach provided by the block grant. We will obviously consider an agreement, some difficult decisions may be needed to any application for top-up funding, but given that we get the compromises that are necessary. I agree with the have to deal with a deficit of such gravity, it is difficult hon. Gentleman that as well as working on the Haass to commit to additional funds at this stage. issues, important though they are, it is crucial that efforts continue to be made to improve education in Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I cannot help Northern Ireland, to boost the economy and to deal but feel that, by now, Paul Goggins would have made a with all the other challenges with which the Northern contribution on this statement with his usual good Ireland Executive continue to grapple. sense, grace and compassion that would have added wisdom to our proceedings. That is why his passing is a loss not just to his family, friends and comrades, but to Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I, too, would like the House. to be associated with the tributes that have echoed from both sides of the House to our dear friend Paul Goggins. It might never be possible to agree entirely about the When I was a Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, past, but it should be possible to agree that the future of he was a particular and specialist help and a source of Northern Ireland will be served only by continued encouragement. When I had the honour of becoming a dialogue in the present. To that end, will the Secretary Member of this place in 2010, he continued to be not of State do all that she can with Northern Ireland only a friend but, as I saw in the many Committees on parties, the Irish Government and the shadow Northern which I served with him, an expert on matters of security. Ireland team to maintain the momentum achieved through His expertise was a particular help. This House will be the Haass process? the poorer for his passing, but his Father’s house of many mansions will be the richer for his presence. Mrs Villiers: I can certainly assure hon. Gentleman that I will do everything that I can to maintain the May I also say, Mr Speaker, that I think your tribute momentum, working with all the people he outlined. to him was touching? You described him as a man who was Labour to the core, but the least tribal of Members. I would like to close by once again thanking the two I think that that captured the man and the moment, and Members of the House who were direct participants in we are richer for that. the Haass process: the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley and the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Turning to the Haass talks, I echo the words of my Long). hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). You will appreciate, Mr Speaker, that I am Mr Speaker: I thank the Secretary of State, the known for speaking my mind and for calling a spade a shadow Secretary of State and all colleagues both for shovel. I believe that my party was right to say no to the what they have said and for the way they have said it. 321 8 JANUARY 2014 Points of Order 322

Points of Order 18 December, at which the allocations for fish species were agreed. Following such negotiations, it is customary to have an oral statement in the House from the appropriate 1.42 pm Minister. Have you received any indication of such a Several hon. Members rose— statement being forthcoming? Mr Speaker: I have received no such indication, but Mr Speaker: It seems that there are points of order the hon. Lady is an indefatigable Member. Her concerns galore. will have been heard by the Deputy Leader of the House, and she will have to look for opportunities, Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): On a either at Question Time or through the resources of the point of order, Mr Speaker. No doubt, you will have Table Office, to highlight her inquiries. seen today’s Guardian front page, which reports a major rift between the Cabinet Office and the Department for Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Work and Pensions over universal credit. Leaked documents (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. First, with your in The Guardian report that the Cabinet Office has permission, with pride and humility, I would like to accelerated Government Digital Service withdrawal from associate myself with the tributes paid to Paul Goggins, universal credit. At the last Cabinet Office oral questions, our dear friend—particularly yours, Mr Speaker. He I asked the Paymaster General for a full explanation of was involved in many activities. I remember most his his role in universal credit, but he declined to answer. commitment to international development, which was Has he given you any notice that he plans to come to the shared by his family and his son Dominic. I know that House to give us a full explanation of his role in the our thoughts, as expressed by you, are very much with universal credit shambles? them today. During our eventful break, to their credit the television Mr Speaker: I certainly confess to being a regular media covered the significant events in South Sudan. The Guardian reader of , among other newspapers. I That is understandable, given that 200,000 people have have received no such indication, but the hon. Gentleman been displaced, 500,000 are waiting for humanitarian has put his concerns on the record, and they will have aid and awful violence continues. Mr Speaker, have you been heard on the Treasury Bench. I think that we will been given any indication, either by the Foreign and have to leave it there for today. Commonwealth Office or the Department for International Development, that a Minister intends to make a statement Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): to the House? If not, may I seek you invaluable advice On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In late October, I about how the matter might be pursued? raised a point of order with you about the Prime Minister’s refusal to answer questions from Back Benchers. Mr Speaker: I have received no such indication from Twice, he refused not only to answer my questions, but either Department. My advice to the right hon. Gentleman to make any reference to them. Instead, he ranted about is to think forward to next Tuesday, when there will be Unite the union. You gave me some sound advice, oral questions to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Mr Speaker. Youtold me to write to the Prime Minister, Commonwealth Affairs and his team. The right hon. which I did, on 31 October, but I am still awaiting a Gentleman might think that a suitable opportunity to response. You also suggested that I speak to the Table raise the matters of concern to him. Who knows? He Office. I have spoken extensively to the Table Office, might be successful either on the Order Paper or in which, after long discussions, agrees with me, as I seeking to raise a supplementary question. understand it, that there is no mechanism in this place, when a Minister either refuses to answer a question Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): On a point of order, from a Back Bencher or makes no reference to the Mr Speaker. Last week, the Cabinet Office released question, to ensure that the question gets answered. If confidential documents to the National Archives relating that is the case, is that a concern for the House? to the then Government’s covert intervention in the 1984-85 miners’ strike. The documents confirmed what Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the National Union of Mineworkers and the Labour his point of order and for giving notice of it. All I can movement fully suspected at the time, but many people say today is that the Prime Minister is answerable to the in the mining communities and the UK as a whole were House for his conduct in government, not for his private alarmed to learn that senior Ministers and, indeed, the life. The hon. Gentleman can pursue the Government Prime Minister deliberately misled the people of this through all the procedural channels available to him. country. Have you been approached, Mr Speaker, by He has asked his questions and has received answers the present Government wishing to apologise and to that he finds unsatisfactory. I am afraid that he is not put the record straight regarding the then Government’s the first and is unlikely to be the last hon. Member to real intentions back in 1984-85, which were to close have that experience. I can only encourage him to 75 pits, not 20 pits, as they insisted? If not, will you persevere. For today at least, we will have to leave it advise the House how this injustice can be rectified by there, partly because I have nothing to add and partly the House? because there are other points of order with which I need to deal. Mr Speaker: The short answer is no; I have received no such approach. It is, of course, open to the hon. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): On a Gentleman to seek an Adjournment debate, in which he point of order, Mr Speaker. On 13 December, the could set out his thoughts more fully and elicit a response. House had its annual debate on fisheries, which was I have a sense that that is a course that the hon. quickly followed by negotiations in Brussels on 17 and Gentleman will in all likelihood follow. 323 Points of Order8 JANUARY 2014 Points of Order 324

John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): On a point of order, statements made over a year-long period were shaping Mr Speaker. About 90 minutes ago, I raised a question the views of all people, including the judiciary, which with the Prime Minister about the situation of police learned what it wanted to know about the nature of the officers patrolling by public transport in Bassetlaw, and strike based on ministerial statements on a continuing the Prime Minister responded by saying that crime had basis. That is why this issue is so important retrospectively. gone down 27%—a fact that he miraculously repeated within seconds on Twitter, putting it out to the outside You, Mr Speaker, have several times heard the Prime world. I have the statistics with me, and crime in Bassetlaw Minister apologise for some incidents involving has not gone down by 27%; it has gone up by 2%, Governments from way back. That applies to previous including in respect of all the serious categories. What Prime Ministers as well as this one. I therefore think advice do you have, Mr Speaker, about getting the that it is your duty, Mr Speaker—an adventurous Prime Minister to correct the record in relation to the Speaker—to use your good offices on this matter. Since objectively available facts about the change in crime in you assumed your office, you have already moved into Bassetlaw? some such territories, so it is important to check all the statements made in this House in violation of what we Mr Speaker: My advice is twofold. First, all Members now know as a result of the release of these papers. If are responsible for the accuracy or otherwise of what you do that, Mr Speaker, we will then be able to see how they say. If a mistake has been made, it should be the course of events in that year-long strike were shaped, corrected. The procedure for making a correction will resulting in the judiciary taking action—on sequestration, be well known to any and all hon. Members. Secondly, I on the imprisonment of people, on blacklisting and on simply say to the hon. Gentleman, with due affection, other events. What flowed from the mouths of those that I first met him when we served on the Lambeth who occupied the Treasury Bench at the time was the borough council together in 1986, so we have known utterance of statements that we now know to be untrue. each other for 27 years. He always struck me as an That makes this a parliamentary issue rather than one extraordinarily persistent blighter then, and nothing in that is just broadly political. the intervening period has caused me to revise that judgment. Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): On a point of point of order, and I hope that he will recognise, as the order, Mr Speaker. In view of what you had to say to House will have noted, that I have treated it with great my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) respect. I have listened to him while he fully made his regarding the release of papers on the year-long miners’ point. I would say two things in response. First, rather strike, we are not talking about a day or two; we are than give an instant response, I would like to reflect on talking about the sentiments and points of view expressed what he said. Secondly, while noting his observations over a long period in the House by Ministers. It was about my spirit of adventure, it may be that what he pretty clear, according to the papers that have been seeks on this occasion could conceivably be beyond my released, that many things said by Ministers were based spirit of adventure—I do not know. I will consider the on something that was not correct. It therefore gets to matter and if I think it necessary to revert to the House, the heart of Parliament when we realise that those I shall do so. We will have to leave it there for today. 325 8 JANUARY 2014 Driving Offences (Review of 326 Sentencing Guidelines) Driving Offences (Review of Sentencing have incorporated into the Crime and Courts Act 2013 Guidelines) new rules on drug taking while driving and to have amended the Road Traffic Act 1988. Both Governments Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order can rightly be proud of having brought in changes that No. 23) go in the right direction—but, as we know, there is much further for us to go. 1.55 pm If a driver is caught driving with Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I beg to “deliberate decision or flagrant disregard for the rules of the move, road”, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of the starting-point for judges when choosing a sentence State to undertake a review of the maximum penalties for driving is eight years. This can be longer for a number of offences causing death and serious injury; and for connected reasons, such as when a person is killed or when the purposes. driver is driving a stolen vehicle. Let us reflect for a I stand today to present this ten-minute rule Bill moment on how subjective because of something that happened in the village of “deliberate decision or flagrant disregard for the rules of the Overton in my constituency of Clwyd South in October road” 2009. That was when Robert James Gaunt, a nine-year-old is. If a driver is seen to be creating significant danger—the boy, tragically lost his life. Robert was a schoolboy from lowest level of seriousness—the starting point for sentencing the village. He was mown down by a driver while judges is three years, and the maximum term is five crossing the road. Young Robert was killed. The driver years. If the driver is injured, the sentence is shortened; who so carelessly took Robert Gaunt’s life was unlicensed if the victim was a friend, the sentence is shortened; and and uninsured. He hit Robert, killed him, and drove on and on we go. away. He not only failed to stop, but did not even report In general, I think it absolutely right that our criminal the accident. Even worse, he attempted to cover up his justice system differentiates between those who make a crime by re-spraying his car. mistake, commit a crime and acknowledge that crime, Robert’s life came abruptly and needlessly to an and those who, as in the case involving Robert Gaunt, end—and for this, the driver incurred a pitiful sentence flee, hide and pervert the course of justice. However, I of 22 months. That was the very limit of what was feel that what we are seeing in relation to driving possible under the law for that offence. This man hit a offences simply beggars belief. Drivers who plead guilty child, took a young boy’s life and, after driving away to before their trials have their sentences automatically leave that child to die, was sentenced to a grand total of reduced by a third, and most will be released on licence 22 months and a four-year driving ban. The man served after serving only half their given sentences. only 10 months in jail, which cannot be right. The rules and guidelines set out by the law mean that After the injustice of this case and many others like drivers who end the lives of innocent people on our it, people from my constituency launched a petition roads have their sentences reduced, reduced and reduced calling for sentences for this sort of crime to be raised. until, bit by bit, they decline to mere months. For the More than 1,300 names were added online and a further families of those who are killed, that is clearly not 2,000 collected on paper. The campaign continued, even justice, which is why I am urging the Government to though a change of Government meant an early closure review the sentencing guidelines relating to penalties for to the online petition. Many of the people who signed driving offences that lead to death or serious injury. If the petition had probably never signed a petition before we change the law and the sentencing guidelines are and perhaps never signed one since, but they did so on reformed properly, that will bring some measure of this occasion out of a passion for justice for Robert and justice. I hope that it will also give people who are for other victims of road accidents around our country. uninsured or unlicensed grounds to pause before they As the local Member of Parliament, I stand here to get behind the wheel of a vehicle. give my support by calling for the law to be changed. Today, I have spoken about the tragic case of Robert This motion calls for the Government to bring in a new James Gaunt, but cases similar to Robert’s happen all Bill to do exactly what the family of Robert James over the country. Innocent people are killed by drivers Gaunt was calling for back in 2009. We are asking the who are given risibly low sentences. Families throughout Government to look at the maximum penalties for our nation have lost loved ones through reckless, dangerous driving offences that lead to death and serious injury. or negligent driving, and the law is not doing enough to Currently, those who cause death by driving face a hold those who take lives in this way accountable. Why number of charges and a large scale of sentences, ranging should a sentence be so short when the injury has been from mere months to 14 years. However, no driver has caused by a car rather than a weapon? Sentences for been handed a 14-year term since Parliament first assault are much longer, even when the act is not lengthened the maximum sentence from 10 years in premeditated. The average sentence served by drivers 2004. The reality is that sentencing guidelines mean that who kill or seriously injure another human being while there must be a large and frankly improbable series of driving is currently just 11 months. Since I have been a aggravating factors for a judge to issue anywhere near Member of Parliament, I have seen other Members that sentence. Tougher penalties are not being used who, while probably agreeing on precious little else because judges are being held back by guidelines that politically, are at one in urging reform on this issue. We prevent them from handing out longer sentences. know that there is a tremendous amount of support for My own party in government was right to fight for a review from Members of all parties. higher maximum penalties in 2004, and the current I firmly believe that this is about finding justice for Government, encouraged by the tireless campaigning of those who have been let down by the system, and many hon. Members of all parties, is equally right to ensuring that the punishment fits the crime. Tragically, 327 Driving Offences (Review of 8 JANUARY 2014 328 Sentencing Guidelines) [Susan Elan Jones] Opposition Day that is often not the case at present. I wholeheartedly support the provision of a range of different sentences [16TH ALLOTTED DAY] for driving offences; what I am calling for today is a logical development of the current system and more Housing consideration of what sentences are given. 2.5 pm My constituents embarked on their campaign to secure justice for Robert. Of course we can never secure Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I beg to move, true justice for a young boy who was so tragically and That this House notes that the Government has failed to tackle needlessly deprived of his life, but what I hope that we the acute housing shortage which is central to the cost of living can do is to take action that will save more families from crisis and over the last three years has presided over the lowest similar heartbreak in the future. That is why I stand level of new homes built since the 1920s, with home ownership falling, rents at record highs and rising faster than wages and a here today—on behalf of the family of Robert James record five million people in the queue for social housing; further Gaunt, the people of Overton, and people throughout notes that net housing supply under this Government has fallen the country who share our concern—and urge the Secretary to its lowest level since records began, and that affordable housing of State to undertake a review of the maximum penalties supply dropped in the last year by 26 per cent, homes built for for driving offences that lead to death and serious social rent dropped to a 20-year low, while there has been a injury. 104 per cent increase in in-work housing benefit claimants since 2009; believes that the Government should take action to tackle Question put and agreed to. the housing shortage; and calls on the Government to boost Ordered, housing supply by reforming the development industry and introducing measures to tackle landbanking, bringing forward plans to deliver That Susan Elan Jones, Chris Ruane, Albert Owen, a new generation of New Towns and Garden Cities and giving Mr Mark Williams, Ian Lucas, Julie Hilling, Karl Turner, local authorities a new right to grow to deliver the homes their Mr David Hanson, Ms Margaret Ritchie and Mark communities need. Tami present the Bill. Before I begin, let me say that I thought that Mr Speaker Susan Elan Jones accordingly presented the Bill. spoke for all of us earlier in his eloquent and moving Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on tribute to our dear friend and comrade Paul Goggins. Friday 28 February and to be printed (Bill 152). His death is a tragedy. He was as decent, compassionate, principled and, I have to say, cheerful a man as one could have the privilege to meet, and we will miss him dreadfully. Our hearts go out to Wyn and to their three children, Matthew, Theresa and Dominic. The fact that we face a housing crisis is common ground across the House. Why do we face that crisis? Because people are living longer and staying in their own homes, which is a good thing; because our population is rising; because every relationship breakdown increases the demand for housing; but principally because, as a society, we have not been building enough homes. Whether we look at starts, completions or net housing supply, the failure to build over the past three years could not be more starkly obvious. It is good to see the Secretary of State taking part in today’s debate. By my count, he has participated in at least four major housing launches, and his Department has made nearly 400 announcements about housing in the past three years. I have brought some of them along. They are headed “Building more homes”, “Welcome rise in affordable housing”, “Plans to boost UK housebuilding”, and “Prevention is best cure for homelessness”. This is the question that the Secretary of State should answer: is he proud of his record over those three years? The Secretary of State’s Department tells us that an average of 232,000 new households will be formed in England each year over the next two decades. However, in the three years for which he has been in charge, the number of homes completed in England has fallen to its lowest level since Stanley Baldwin was first Prime Minister. The number of affordable homes built fell by 29% last year, and the number of social homes built fell to its lowest level for more than 20 years. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I do not know whether my right hon. Friend noticed last week that house prices in Hammersmith and Fulham rose by 329 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 330

25% last year, and that the average cost of a property in Pete Wishart: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the borough is now £693,000. Will he join me in condemning way? Hammersmith and Fulham council, which is selling off council homes by auction as they become vacant, and Hilary Benn: Yes, I will give way. has just entered into a joint venture with Stanhope, a private developer, to empty and demolish council estates and replace them with market or near-market housing? Pete Wishart: I know the right hon. Gentleman does not really want to talk about the devolved Governments Labour has run, but does he know how many houses Hilary Benn: I shall come to the issue of house prices Labour built in the last four years in government in in London later in my speech. However, the situation Scotland? Obviously, it is a difficult question, but the that my hon. Friend has described in his own borough answer is six: six houses, and none of them were on the should concern Members in all parts of the House. Scottish mainland. Shetland was lucky enough to get Given the need for more social homes in London—and, six houses from the Labour Executive. indeed, in the rest of the country—it is hard to understand why a responsible council should take such action. The number of housing starts fell by 11% last year, Hilary Benn: In Scotland and elsewhere local authorities and, although it is now rising, it is still far from where it have responsibility for building houses, but we are here needs to be. Net housing supply is at its lowest level to hold this Government to account, and homelessness— since the statistics began to be collected a decade ago. Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): Will my Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): The right hon. Friend give way? right hon. Gentleman is keen to talk about the Government’s record in England. Will he comment on Hilary Benn: Yes, of course. the fact that as of July last year the number of housing completions in England had risen by 34%, while in Mr Hamilton: I would like to respond to the previous Labour-controlled Wales it had fallen by 32%? How can intervention and correct the record. Labour Midlothian he explain that, if he believes that Labour has the council was building 1,000 council houses at that time, panacea? in what is the second smallest land-locked authority area, so the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire Hilary Benn: I am here today to talk about housing (Pete Wishart) was talking absolute rubbish. provision in England and if the hon. Gentleman wants to compare the Labour record with the Conservative Hilary Benn: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for record, I will take any time our record over 13 years in putting the record straight. Perhaps I should have trusted government— my initial judgment and not given way to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? I can help him out on this. Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Tory Government have Hilary Benn: Will the hon. Gentleman bear with me? in fact cut the capital budget for Wales by 40% and That is help from an unusual quarter. obviously one cannot build more houses with less money? The record is 2 million more homes, 500,000 of them affordable. I watched with interest the contribution of Hilary Benn: That is an extremely good point and it the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake matches what the Government have done in relation to Berry) to Channel 4 News last night, and I would just England, which I shall come to in a moment. say to him on social homes—council houses and housing The Government said that they wanted to prevent association social homes—that the Labour Government homelessness, but what has happened? It has risen every built more social homes in their last three years, which year under this Government and rough-sleeping is up were the most difficult because of the recession, than by nearly a third since 2010. House prices, which my this Government have managed to build in their first hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) three years in office. mentioned a moment ago, are racing ahead of earnings. They are up 8.4% in the last 12 months according to Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Does my Nationwide and up 15% in London, and today it takes right hon. Friend appreciate that in London possibly the average family over 20 years to save a deposit for a more than most places, because of the ridiculous cost of house. If we are talking about records, that figure in private rented accommodation, it is essential that we 1997 was three years, so no wonder the rate of home have a supply of social housing? When the Government ownership is falling. Therefore, it is not really working, made a commitment to replace homes sold under right is it? to buy, they said there would be a one-to-one replacement. Does he share my concern that that promise turned out Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): In Prudhoe in my to be totally worthless as they are replacing only one constituency eight out of the 10 houses that were purchased property for every seven sold? recently at the development by the hospital were bought under Help to Buy. Does the right hon. Gentleman now Hilary Benn: Indeed; my hon. Friend points out yet welcome the Help to Buy policy which has transformed another failure with the promises the Government made the ability of people to bridge the difficulty he so on— correctly outlines? 331 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 332

Hilary Benn: I shall come to Help to Buy in a moment, Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend illustrates the problem, but, yes, we have consistently said that we welcome because, as we know, this is money that has been measures that help people to buy, but there is a problem top-sliced from all local authorities and is being redistributed about supply and that is what this debate is about: the in a way that clearly does not appear to be fair and, Government’s failure to ensure that enough homes are judging by the findings of the PAC and the NAO, is not being built. The truth is we need to build a lot more terribly effective. homes as a country—roughly double the current rate. The question before the House today is not whether we Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): In my are now seeing a rise in housing starts from the pitifully constituency in Brighton increasing numbers of people low level the Government have bequeathed themselves are on the council waiting list as people struggle under over the last three years. The question before the House the Government’s austerity measures, yet for the whole today is: does the country have a plan that will see country the Chancellor has increased the borrowing building on the scale required? Judging by the record so limits to build council houses by a mere £300 million, far, the answer is clearly no, and there is one bit of which is nowhere near enough. The Labour motion advice I suggest the Secretary of State takes, which he refers to gave himself: he did at least have the modesty to put out “giving local authorities a new right to grow to deliver” one press release which was headed: new homes. Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify that “No complacency in the drive to build more homes.” that means a Labour Government would completely The Secretary of State should listen to the plans and remove the hugely damaging borrowing cap so more proposals Labour have put forward about what more housing can be built, as well as ending the sale of needs to be done. Let us consider affordable homes. council houses? What did the Government do? One of their first acts was to cut the affordable housing budget by 60%. Hilary Benn: As the hon. Lady may be aware, the [Interruption.] Indeed, it was the largest cut they made. Lyons commission established by my right hon. Friend We have tried to persuade them to use the proceeds of the Leader of the Opposition is looking at that question. the 4G auction to build affordable homes and to listen Labour councils are outdoing Conservative authorities to the International Monetary Fund calling for an in building new council houses because of the reforms infrastructure boost by providing more affordable homes. to the housing revenue account the last Labour Government They have not done that. put in place. I come now to the new homes bonus. The National Audit Office said there is little evidence that the bonus Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): has significantly changed local authorities’ behaviour, My right hon. Friend rightly highlights the extraordinary and the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee says story of the new homes bonus. The one thing he has not there is no credible data available to show whether it is mentioned is the cost. Because it is a cumulative bonus working. Indeed, she has pointed out that the areas that that works over six years, the commitments that have have gained most money tend to be the areas where already been made involve expenditure commitments of housing need is lowest and the areas that have lost most over £7 billion. Is it not extraordinary that a Government money tend to be those where the needs are greatest. are committing to £7 billion-plus of expenditure on a That is a familiar story with this Government: whether policy that the NAO does not see has having any effect it is local government funding or the new homes bonus, and the housing Minister does not believe acts as the they like to take from those who are least well-off and incentive it is supposed to be? give to those who are most well-off. What is more, the money that is taken from the least well-off goes to areas Hilary Benn: My right hon. Friend makes an where in all probability the houses would have been overwhelmingly powerful case. That is the problem with built anyway, so in what sense is the new homes bonus the new homes bonus and that is why we are urging the “a powerful incentive for local authorities to deliver housing”? Government to think again about it. Indeed, when the We know the new housing Minister, the hon. Member Chancellor tried to persuade the Treasury Committee for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), does not think it is an that the Government’s actions were going to boost incentive because he told us so. On 25 November he supply, the Treasury Committee said the arguments told the House that being made were “unconvincing”. “the new homes bonus is not about encouraging people to build I shall turn now to the Help to Buy scheme. I said in homes.”—[Official Report, 25 November 2013; Vol. 571, c. 11.] answer to an earlier intervention that we support measures to assist people in realising their dream of home ownership, That is what he said. If that is the case, what on earth is but if one of the consequences is that house prices move the new homes bonus for? Perhaps when the Secretary further and further out of people’s reach, there will be a of State responds he could sort out the confusion in his problem. We cannot boost demand for housing, which own Department. is what Help to Buy is doing, if we do not also increase the supply. There is a growing list of voices expressing Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): When the new homes concern about the scheme, the latest of which belongs bonus policy came in, my local authority in Gateshead to someone who happens to sit at the Cabinet table with literally did not know what to do with its new homes the Secretary of State. I refer, of course, to the Business bonus. Because the new homes bonus was netted off Secretary. Talking recently about the state of the economy, because of any demolitions that had taken place, Gateshead he said that got a grand total of £64,000. We literally did not know “we risk it being derailed by a housing bubble…It’s not my job to what to do with £64,000 to implement a housing policy tell the Bank of England what to do, but I get a sense that the in Gateshead. Governor of the Bank does understand this is a serious problem.” 333 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 334

Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): May I Hilary Benn: I give way to the Chair of the Select urge the right hon. Gentleman to expand his remarks to Committee. cover areas beyond London and the south-east? As a Leeds MP, he will know as well as I do that there is not a Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Given housing bubble there, and that house prices are not that the Help to Buy scheme is such a major plank of running away. The Help to Buy scheme is making a real Government housing policy, does my right hon. Friend difference, because the price of a house in my not think that the Government should have made a constituency—and in many parts of his constituency—is detailed assessment of its likely impact on house building eight to nine times more than the average salary in those and house prices before introducing it? When the Treasury areas. The scheme is really helping people there. He has Select Committee asked officials from the Department made the point that prices are increasing in London, for Communities and Local Government about that in but will he please ensure that this debate is about more November, they said that it was not a matter for them; than just London and the south-east? they said it was a matter for the Treasury. When asked whether any officials at DCLG had had any discussions Hilary Benn: The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly with Treasury officials about the impact of the scheme, fair point. As he knows, the housing market varies they said no. Is not that a complete dereliction of duty enormously between different parts of the country. In on the part of DCLG with regard to this important the city that he and I have the privilege of representing, policy? the council’s assessment—which is supported by all the parties—is that we will need roughly 70,000 new homes Hilary Benn: I agree; my hon. Friend is absolutely in the next 15 years. That is a question of supply. right. We have called on the Bank of England to look into the operation of the Help to Buy scheme now, Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Will the right rather than in a year’s time, precisely so that those hon. Gentleman give way? points can be taken on board. Hilary Benn: I have given way a great deal. I want to I want to move on to discuss what else could be done make some progress, because lots of people want to to get the land, the finance and the planning consent speak. required to build more homes. Ministers seem to argue that nothing is really wrong with the way in which the Let us look at the situation in London. Here, we see land market is working. I have to say to the Secretary of new blocks being built and marketed to foreign investors, State that we disagree. The planning Minister, in his making it much more difficult for Londoners and others latest written answer to me, has said there are more than to get a chance to buy those homes. The shadow housing 523,000 units with planning permission, of which 241,500 Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton have not yet even been started on site. That represents a North East (Emma Reynolds), has said that that is lot of homes that could be built, yet companies are wrong and called for action to require such homes to be sitting on the land, with planning permission, waiting marketed to Londoners and others who live in this for it to increase in value and not building on it. country first, rather than being sold off-plan to investors abroad. The Office of Fair Trading looked into this matter and found that strategic land banks, including optioned Mr Marcus Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman give land, were worth 14.3 years, which is about enough land way? to build 1.4 million homes. That is why we think it perfectly reasonable for communities that have given planning permission to say to those who sought it, Hilary Benn: I want to make some progress. “Look, will you please get on and build the homes you In the capital, about 50,000 homes are now sitting said you wanted to build? And if you don’t, then after a empty. That is why Labour would allow councils to time we will start levying a charge. After all, if you had double the council tax on empty properties. We would built them, we would now be getting council tax revenue. also deal with the loophole that allows overseas owners In the most extreme cases, we will use compulsory to claim that a property is their second home, simply purchase powers to take the land off you, with the because they have put a table and chair in it. permission, and sell it to someone else who will build I asked the Secretary of State a specific question last the homes.” March about whether foreign buyers would be able to I know that Ministers spluttered into their Cornflakes benefit from the Help to Buy scheme, and his reply when we announced that policy, and that the Mayor of could not have been clearer: London described it as a “Mugabe-style” land grab, but “This scheme will not be available for foreign buyers; this is a I would gently point out that among those who support scheme to help people from this country.”—[Official Report, the idea of charging when permission has been granted 25 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 1311.] but no houses have been built are the International Will he confirm for the record that EU nationals who Monetary Fund and someone who goes by the name of have come to the UK will not be eligible for assistance Boris Johnson, who, when I last checked, was the Mayor from the Help to Buy scheme? I will give way to him to of London. Moreover, the planning Minister once called allow him to answer. I notice that he does not wish to for a tax on land to “deter speculative land banks”. The intervene. Perhaps a nod would do. This is the third hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen has also time I have asked him about foreign buyers in relation spoken up in favour of the proposal, and the hon. to the Help to Buy scheme, and it is the third time he Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) has has been unable or unwilling to give me an answer. tried to claim it as a Conservative idea. With such illustrious backing, how could Labour’s proposal be Several hon. Members rose— anything other than a very good plan indeed? 335 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 336

Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Will the right hon. developers who want to move on and develop land not Gentleman give way? being able to do so because the big pieces of land have already been snapped up and are held on to very firmly. Hilary Benn: I am going to make some progress. When Kate Barker carried out her review into the Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend makes a good point housing market a decade ago she found two factors that about the nature of the land market, why reform is we need to consider. First, she said that required and why that is one thing we have asked “limited land supply means the competition tends to be focused Sir Michael Lyons to look at in his work. on land acquisition rather than on consumers”. The next problem the Government should start looking Secondly, she found that at is the difficulty faced by local authorities in places “many housebuilders ‘trickle out’ houses…to protect themselves such as Stevenage, Oxford, Luton and York, which against price volatility”. want to see houses built to meet demand but do not [Interruption.] Hon. Members say that that was a decade have the land and neighbouring authorities are not ago, but it is still going on. Roughly translated, it means co-operating and making that happen. Ministers recognise that not all house builders have an incentive to build all that there is a problem, because that is why they put the the homes for which they have planning permission as duty to co-operate in the national planning policy quickly as possible or as quickly as the nation needs framework. them to. That is a problem, and we have proposed a way of dealing with it. Even when times were good, when Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): Will the right mortgage credit was readily available and house prices hon. Gentleman give way? On Stevenage? were booming, the house building industry was unable to build the number of homes required. Hilary Benn: I will give way. Mr Marcus Jones: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the previous housing boom in 2006-07. Will he explain Stephen McPartland: I am grateful to the right hon. why the number of first-time buyers fell to its lowest Gentleman for giving way on the issue of Stevenage, level on record at that time, and why, following the where he went with some of Labour colleagues, without moves made by the present Government, we are seeing informing me, to launch their housing policy. Is he the strongest growth in first-time buyer numbers for aware that Labour-controlled Stevenage borough council more than a decade? has still not asked neighbouring North Hertfordshire district council whether it will have any houses required Hilary Benn: As the hon. Gentleman is well aware, in its local plan, because Stevenage borough council there was a very difficult period—[Interruption.] No, believes it can meet its need within its own administrative there was a collapse in the global economy. It is no good boundaries? the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen shaking his head. The problems that we experienced in the United Kingdom were caused in particular by problems Hilary Benn: What the hon. Gentleman has just said in the housing market in the United States of America. absolutely does not square with what the leader of That is why we should be concerned by the threat of a Stevenage borough council has said to me— housing bubble returning to the United Kingdom. Stephen McPartland rose— One of the answers must be to get more people building houses. [Interruption.] I am glad to see the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen nodding in Hilary Benn: Excuse me. It also does not square with agreement. Forty or 50 years ago, two thirds of the the figures that I have looked at on the proposals for houses in this country were built by small and medium-sized development to the north of Stevenage, which have builders. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can carry been consistently blocked. The truth is that a duty to on nodding; that is fine. I am grateful for his support. co-operate is not a duty to help each other out or to Nowadays, the figure is only one third, and when we reach agreement. So in those circumstances, what is a talk to small and medium-sized builders about the council supposed to do? That shows why the right to problems they face, they mention two things: the difficulty grow would provide a means of overcoming this problem of getting access to land and the difficulty in obtaining by requiring neighbouring local authorities to work finance. Something needs to be done about both. together to ensure that the houses that need to be built are built. It is not a top-down— Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab): In addition to the situation facing small builders, Stephen McPartland: On a point of order— is it not also an indictment that, at 20%, we have the lowest level of self-builders in Europe? In the housing Hilary Benn: It is no good asking me for a point of policy we develop we need to encourage communities order. such as the one in Saddleworth where more than 20 people want to build their own individual homes. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): No it is Hilary Benn: I agree completely, and I shall say a not. You are quite right, Mr Benn. I was just about to word about that in a moment. call Mr McPartland to make his point of order. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Let me Stephen McPartland: Thank you, Madam Deputy take a step back in terms of land where planning Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman has just made an permission has been obtained. We need to address the accusation about Stevenage. I would just like to clarify issue of big developers grabbing every large piece of things to the House, and I wonder whether that is in land, as has happened in Stoke-on-Trent, and smaller order. 337 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 338

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): That is pursued a constituency case, and I found him to be not a point of order. Points of order are not clarifications courteous, diligent and helpful. I also had experience of of debates. The hon. Gentleman can, if he wishes, stand him when I was the Minister, and he pursued his to try to catch my eye, but at the rate we are progressing constituents’ interest doggedly but always with enormous through this debate he will be lucky if there is any time charm. I think it is heartbreaking that a man who had left, because this debate has to finish at 4 pm and a large so much to offer to this House and, far more importantly, number of Members are here. However, I am sure that to his family has gone so prematurely, and I will miss he will try to pursue his point in other ways. him. I welcome this debate. We have been through a difficult Hilary Benn: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy housing crisis but this is only the second debate on Speaker. I have two other points to make, one of which housing that the official Opposition have called, and we is about new towns and garden cities. The Government had to goad them into calling one of those. Throughout used to be very keen on those at one point, but they the period, I have never felt under any pressure from the seem to have become less enthusiastic. I hope that the official Opposition on housing, and the right hon. Secretary of State will say something about that when Member for Leeds Central has eloquently demonstrated he responds, because it is hard to see how we will make why that is. All Labour Members want to do today is progress without those things . We have to incentivise talk down the economy, ignore the recovery and cast local authorities to come forward, which is why the their heads in the sand about the sustained turnaround Lyons commission is going to look at how we can help in the housing market. It has certainly taken some time new towns and garden cities to be established and why a to deal with the problems that Labour left us. The right Labour Treasury would use guarantees—the Government hon. Gentleman referred to Stanley Baldwin’s housing are currently using guarantees for Help to Buy—for figures, and when I walked through the door of Eland “help to build” for these new towns. house the spirit of Stanley Baldwin and those figures Finally, we need communities to take responsibility met me. That was our baseline—that is what we actually for building new homes. On that I am with the planning started from. Once upon a time— Minister, because I believe that neighbourhood planning Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) rose— is the way forward. For too long, we have had a system in which nobody has really taken responsibility for Mr Pickles: I will give way in a few moments. Would building new homes. Thame in south Oxfordshire provides it be possible for me actually to say something before a good example of the new community plan. If communities the hon. Gentleman intervenes? feel that the new houses that they give consent to will Once upon a time, the last Labour Prime Minister, solve the housing problem in their own neighbourhood, advised by the current Leader of the Opposition and they will be much more likely to give agreement. That is shadow Chancellor, announced that he had abolished why we need plots for self-build and local allocation “boom and bust”. It was a debt-fuelled illusion of a policies for social housing, and why we need to give boom, resulting in the biggest budget deficit in our local people first call on having the chance to buy new peacetime history and a crash that devastated the housing developments in their area. That will give communities market—all that was under Labour’s watch. Let us cast confidence that the homes will meet their need. our minds back to 2008— The progress so far has not been considerable, but the task is. I do not know whether the Secretary of State in Geraint Davies rose— the end believed all his press releases and announcements, Mr Pickles: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can I do not know whether he thought that blaming councils remember 2008. The then housing Minister, the right would be enough and I do not know whether he was hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), was taken in by what I have to describe as the bombast of photographed outside Downing street with her speaking this Government’s first housing Minister, who boasted notes. No doubt the right hon. Member for Leeds consistently of the Government’s record. The problem Central was in the Cabinet and waiting to be briefed. is that the Secretary of State’s record speaks all too This is what her notes said: clearly for itself. Therefore, the country needs a new “Housebuilding is stalling…New starts are already down 10% plan. The public need it because they are the ones compared to a year ago. Housebuilders are predicting further paying the price for failure. Homes give us security and falls.” a sense of community: they are where we build and raise The notes also said: families; they are places for children to do their homework; “We can’t know how bad it will get.” and they are good for our health. However, rents are We know now that it would become far worse. rising twice as fast as wages, house prices are moving out of reach of families, and 5 million people are in the Geraint Davies: Will the Secretary of State confirm queue for social housing. This country needs something that lending from banks for mortgages now is at the different, and I urge the House to vote for this motion. 2008 level but lending from banks to business and construction is 30% down, which is why house prices 2.35 pm are escalating out of control and real wages are falling through the floor? When interest rates go up in a couple The Secretary of State for Communities and Local of years there will be a burst of the housing bubble and Government (Mr Eric Pickles): The right hon. Member sub-prime debt. for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) spoke with considerable sincerity and eloquence, as did Mr Speaker, the Leader Mr Pickles: The hon. Gentleman needs to look a of the Opposition and the Prime Minister, in paying little outside London given where he represents. He tribute to Paul Goggins. Before we go on, I wish to say could even look in some parts of London. Newham, for that I had experience of Paul as a Minister when I example, saw a drop of just under 1% in house prices. If 339 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 340

[Mr Pickles] new homes bonus. He has been saying that it is going to all kinds of places, but which authority is in the top 10 we take out the London figures—figures for parts of for the receipt of new homes bonus? Which authority is London can be very spectacular—and look at the rest at number six and challenging for the top position? Yes, of the country, we will see that the increase in house I am talking about Leeds metropolitan authority. The prices has been very modest indeed. Not even in London right hon. Gentleman is sticking his nose up at the have the figures reached where they were in 2007, so to prospect of the people of Leeds receiving £27.2 million. talk about a housing bubble is ridiculous. Mr Betts:The Secretary of State will remember his Alec Shelbrooke: As I tried gently to prod the shadow visit to the Select Committee just after the Government Secretary of State during his contribution, may I now were formed. I asked the then housing Minister, the say that I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), moving the debate beyond London and the south-east whether success for the Government, when they are to areas in which my constituency and those of a great eventually judged on their record, many of my hon. Friends are based? “will be building more homes per year than were being built prior Mr Pickles: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for to the recession, and that failure will be building less>.” that. Our long-term economic plan is helping to pay off The right hon. Gentleman said: the deficit, keep interest rates down and let the housing “Yes. Building more homes is the gold standard on which we market recover. shall be judged.” Mr Betts rose— My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) has just said that we were Mr Pickles: Of course I will give way to the hon. building more than 200,000 homes a year before the Gentleman, but just let me make a little bit of progress. recession. When will the Government hit their own According to the Office for National Statistics, house targets and hit that figure? building is now at its highest level since 2007, based on new orders in residential construction. House building Mr Pickles: Well, as we leave behind the ghost of starts in the last quarter were at their highest level since Stanley Baldwin bequeathed to us by the Labour Front 2008. The National House-Building Council agrees, Bench, the figures demonstrate that we are really starting with new home registrations at their highest since 2008. to move. The hon. Gentleman should be rejoicing in the The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors has declared fact that our policies are working. that In the 2005 manifesto, the previous Labour Government “every part of the country has reported growth since the beginning pledged that there would be 1 million more home of the market crash six years ago.” owners. In reality, home ownership fell by more than Contrary to the Opposition’s motion, statistics on net 250,000. Yet the aspiration of home ownership has housing supply show that 400,000 more homes have returned. According to the Bank of England, mortgages been delivered in the first three years, which is in line to first-time buyers are at their highest level. Both the with figures before Labour’s housing crash. Council for Mortgage Lenders and the Halifax report the same. Thanks to the action taken to tackle the Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): deficit, we have kept interest rates down. The number of As the Secretary of State is referring to figures, will he repossessions is at its lowest level for five years and confirm that his Department’s statistics show that in continues to fall. The Bank of England reports that the 2007, 176,000 homes were built, in 2008, 148,000 homes number of new mortgage arrears cases is at its lowest were built, and in the latest 12 months in which he has quarterly level since its records began. been Secretary of State, just 107,950 were built? Mr Pickles: Basically, if the right hon. Gentleman Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Will the Secretary walks through the door of Eland house and embraces of State acknowledge that of the 20 local authorities Stanley Baldwin’s figures, he will find that it takes a wee with the worst repossession record for mortgages, 17 are while to start to make progress. He should congratulate in London? Although he may not wish to address the the Government on what we have been doing to get the problems of London, they are substantial and need his thing going again, and it is a matter of some pleasure attention. that that is the case. Mr Pickles: I have looked most carefully at the figures. Mr Betts rose— It is not a surprise that the number of repossessions is Mr Pickles: I will give way to the distinguished hon. dropping, and that is something about which we should Gentleman in a moment, but I would like him to be pleased. Mortgage approvals are at their highest level consider that brick makers stayed at work over the for six years. The Mortgage Advice Bureau notes that Christmas period—very unusually—to catch up with the number of mortgage products available to house demand for bricks to build new homes. Including empty buyers has surpassed the 10,000 mark, and cites homes being brought back into use, the new homes Government action as the cause. bonus has made available more than half a million We are taking action to help those with small deposits. more homes to buy and rent. I must say that I have, Since April, under the Help to Buy equity loan scheme, after a fashion, become attached to the right hon. there have been more than 20,000 reservations for new Member for Leeds Central [Interruption.] Iamnot build homes, supporting house building and first-time pleased. I am worried about what will happen when he buyers. Over 90% of the 1,200 house builders registered returns to Leeds, because he has been talking about the under the scheme are small to medium-sized developers. 341 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 342

The Help to Buy mortgage guarantee scheme has had have reinvigorated the right to buy, reversing Labour’s a further 6,000 applications in the first month, helping savage cuts and helping social tenants get on the housing hard-working families. The average house price guaranteed ladder. under the scheme is just under £160,000. It is a shame that Labour councillors and Labour MPs oppose the right to buy. Who is the biggest enemy Mr Love: The right hon. Gentleman is giving us a of the right to buy? It is Labour-supporting unions such whole list of issues related to housing demand, but if as Unite, the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and there is no response from housing supply all we will get Technicians and the GMB, waging class war against the is house price rises. Is he concerned about that? working classes. By contrast, we are on the side of hard-working people. We have changed the rules on Mr Pickles: I am coming to supply in a moment. The housing waiting lists to give priority to the armed forces hon. Gentleman should be a little patient. and to local residents, whereas Labour doled out council Labour might not have supported the scheme, but housing to foreign nationals. Santander has said that Help to Buy has been We are helping the vulnerable. Homelessness is half “a major cause of increased confidence in the housing market.” the average level it was under the last Labour Government. The average length of time households spend in temporary We are also helping the less well-off. More than 150,000 accommodation has fallen by a third. Housing waiting new affordable homes have been built in England in the lists almost doubled under Labour, but thanks to the past three years, assisted by our £20 billion affordable reforms in the Localism Act 2011, waiting lists have housing programme. Thanks to our reforms to the now fallen below the level we inherited. The Home Housing Revenue Account, more council housing has Builders Federation notes that planning approvals for been built in the three years of this Government than in new homes are at their highest since 2007. A survey in all the 13 years of the previous Labour Government. September showed that the number of people wanting to extend their home has trebled, thanks to the flexible Jake Berry: As my right hon. Friend is on the subject planning rules that we introduced to restore economic of social housing, perhaps he could also confirm to the confidence, which were opposed by the Opposition. House that the previous Government, after 13 years, left us with 421,000 fewer social homes than when they David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does the took office. Secretary of State share my astonishment at the noises coming from Labour Members about house building Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend is exactly right, and my levels when we all know that in the one area of the UK speech will confirm that. The social housing stock where Labour is actually in charge, house builders such under Labour’s watch shrunk by 420,000. as Redrow are pulling out? They are doing so because of the increased burden of red tape that the Labour-run Debbie Abrahams: More than 2,300 households in Welsh Assembly is putting on the housing industry. Oldham are affected by the bedroom tax, and there are only 500 properties into which they can move. Furthermore, Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend makes a very important private sector landlords are not allowing tenancies for point and I shall come on to it in a few moments. people on benefits. Where are those people meant to We have scrapped Labour’s regional spatial strategies, live? which enveloped the planning system in red tape and hindered local plan making. The number of planning Mr Pickles: The hon. Lady should get out more and appeals has fallen, meaning more local decision making stop reading reports in the newspapers. The private and more decisions “right first time”. rented sector represents 70% of all homes and there is At the same time, we have protected the environment. no evidence whatsoever to suggest that such activity is The latest official figures, produced last month, show widespread or happening in significant numbers. Why that the number of homes built on the green belt is the would people want to turn away good tenants? Frankly, lowest on record—four times lower than it was a quarter I deeply regret the way in which she is stigmatising of a century ago. We have made it easier to get brownfield people on housing benefit. land back into use by allowing surplus office space to be converted into homes. A survey in September of just Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I did get out 15% of councils reported more than 260 different schemes and I was standing at my local bus stop, where there is under those new rights, but the Labour response, from an estate agent, reading the adverts. Nearly 70% of Labour MPs and from members of the London Assembly, them said, “No DSS”—of course, landlords have not is to oppose those new homes. yet realised that the DSS is no more. That is a big We are not just backing large developers—we are change, as I have not seen that for many years, but those supporting self-build by abolishing development taxes of us who get out are aware that that is happening. such as section 106 and the community infrastructure levy, getting the state off the backs of those who want Mr Pickles: I am shocked to hear that that is the to build their own homes. I hope that the hon. Member situation in Scotland, because in England we have a far for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams)will more civilised way of dealing with these matters. welcome that. Labour’s response has been silence, no John Prescott’s pathfinder programme demolished doubt because Labour councils want to tax people to Victorian terraces across the midlands, but this Government the hilt. have scrapped the wrecking ball and worked with We need only to look at Labour’s policies, which we communities, not against them. We have already brought have heard about from the right hon. Member for Leeds 85,000 long-term empty properties back into use. We Central. Labour has a five-year plan and has reinstated 343 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 344

[Mr Pickles] green lung for those towns and cities and the Opposition want Labour councils with no democratic mandate to a national housing target of 200,000 homes a year. The rip it up. previous Labour Government had a target of 240,000 homes a year, yet house building fell to its worst peacetime Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful level since the 1920s. It is a little like the state targets for to the Secretary of State for giving way, not least the tractors that failed to roll off the Ukrainian production because he missed Luton off his list of places that lines. Labour has suggested might need a right to grow. In the How would Labour build new homes? I understand period running through to 2030, Luton borough requires the Opposition have three policies. First, the shadow about 30,000 new homes to keep up with population housing Minister has called for five “new towns”. I demand but can only build about 6,000 within the remind her that the last Labour Prime Minister promised borough. What should Luton do? five new eco-towns in 2007, and then, when they were not built—perhaps in a silent, unconscious tribute to Mr Pickles: They should begin to talk to their Nikita Khrushchev—increased the number from five to neighbouring authorities, and stop trying to bully North 10. Not a single house was built. Not one. The only Hertfordshire council—I have had an opportunity to thing that eco-towns built was resentment. Labour has meet that council—and using terror tactics and being simply dusted off and reheated its old policies under a extremely unpleasant. It is the return of Stalinist top-down different name. The Government are supporting locally-led planning, and the biggest threat to the green belt that large scale development, with more than £500 million of the country faces. investment. We have kick-started new homes in the likes Labour’s policies are like buses: you wait for years, of Cranbrook, Wokingham and Sherford, and Ebbsfleet then three come along at once. It has even asked Sir Michael will follow very soon. Lyons to come up with a couple more. Under the Labour’s next policy is so-called land banking, as we Labour Government, Sir Michael was paid £400,000 have just heard, and is a solution to a problem that does for his last review of Department for Communities and not exist, according to the Office of Fair Trading, Local Government policy, so I hope that the Labour Savills and Kate Barker. Of the half a million units with party is getting him at a cheaper rate. For all of Labour’s outstanding planning permission, almost 90% have started lame attempts at policy making, we can see what Labour or are working towards a start. The number of homes would be like in reality, as my hon. Friend the Member on stalled sites is just 59,000 units. The Get Britain for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) suggested. In Wales, Building investment fund, worth more than £500 million, where housing is devolved, Labour runs the Administration, is helping unlock those sites, and we have made things and its record on housing there is a disaster. According easier by enabling unrealistic section 106 agreements to to the National House-Building Council, while new be renegotiated, making such stalled sites viable—a home registrations are up in England, they have fallen move opposed every single time by the Labour party. successively in Wales. Labour has hit the housing market with extra red tape, adding £13,000 to the cost of a new Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): In Stockton home with measures ranging from building regulations, borough, planning permission for hundreds of houses to fire sprinklers and waste-site management plans. on brownfield sites has existed for years, yet developers House builders, Redrow, say that due to the burden of are not doing anything. Is it not time that they were regulation: helped and encouraged to build more homes on those “Wales is the most difficult area in the UK in which to sites by the idea that they might lose the land, as we operate”. suggest? Persimmon Homes has pulled out of development in south Wales and the construction firm, Watkin Jones, Mr Pickles: Perhaps we could nationalise them— has shifted its development to England rather than [Interruption.] I thought that would get the hon. Member Wales. for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) excited. Perhaps we Labour failed to support the housing market, and should confiscate the land. Perhaps we should use a has belatedly introduced a help to buy equity loan North Korean solution and start arresting and executing scheme. Watkin Jones added that them for failing to do that—[Interruption.] I am afraid “it is difficult to comprehend why the Welsh Assembly Government that it is that rather daft rhetoric that will dry up all are failing to recognise the importance of following the UK housing supply. Government’s lead in getting much needed homes built.” Labour’s policy of new development taxes and state The Welsh Government, true to Labour form, has confiscation of land would have the reverse effect, slashed right to buy. In microcosm, this is the real face discouraging developers from complex land assembly of Labour: high tax, high regulation, the enemy of the projects. House builders will just let their planning free market, and the enemy of aspiration. permissions lapse or be more cautious about applying I have outlined how the coalition Government’s long-term for permission in the first place. It is a recipe for fewer economic plan is turning the housing market around, homes and a slower planning system. but there is more to do to build more homes to meet Labour’s third policy is the “Right to Grow”, another demand and deal with demographic change. The next Labour land grab to allow Labour councils to dump spending round will see a further £23 billion of public urban sprawl on their rural neighbours and rip up and private investment in affordable housing. We are green belt protection. Labour cites the likes of looking at further reforms to the housing revenue account Stevenage—we have heard from my hon. Friend the to help councils build more homes. Our £1 billion build Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland)—Oxford to rent fund is bringing institutional investment into the and York. In every case, the green belt is providing a private rented sector—something that no Government 345 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 346 have achieved before. Further change of use reforms where building is under way. I am going tomorrow to will make it easier for redundant and under-used buildings have my photograph taken at one where the last house to be converted to housing. We will deliver fairness in is just being finished—I will be proud to see it, as it is an social housing by ending taxpayer subsidies to high-income affordable house. Something is being done, but it is very, social tenants—people like Bob Crow. very little—it is not enough—and the engine needs to Our economic plan is for the long term. Contrary to go faster and faster so that we can build more. the doom and gloom of the Labour party, which wants We have land in Amble, Berwick, Corbridge, Craster, to talk our nation down, our economy is on the mend, Embleton, Shilbottle, Rothbury and Wooler. They are thanks to the hard work of the British people, and not in Blyth—I am in the big town—but in the countryside, thanks to tough decisions to tackle the deficit left by where we have land to build. One or two sites might Labour and to clean up their mess. Our policy is firing encroach on the green belt, but not by very much, and up the kilns, bringing the brickies on site, and getting Northumberland county council really does not want Britain building again. I urge right hon. and hon. to use that land, as it wants to build houses where they Members to reject the Labour motion, and I commend are needed. They are needed in those places in the the Government’s housing record to the House. countryside. I hear Members saying, “You can’t build in villages; you can’t build here,” but we have to build in Several hon. Members rose— villages, as they have to survive. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): There The green belt is a problem, and I hate to see it being will be a four-minute time limit on all Back-Bench built on— contributions. The next speaker is Ronnie Campbell. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. 3.3 pm 3.7 pm Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): I listened intently to the Secretary of State. I remember—this is Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): It is entirely right that going back a long time; I have been here 26 years—that we should debate the serious issue of housing this when we came to power in 1997 on the back of 18 years afternoon, but I am afraid that the Opposition have of Tory rule, houses were crumbling and falling to bits. picked the wrong time to table a motion with such If Members look at the record, they will see that in that wording, as it does not reflect at all the state of the period Labour put at least £9 billion or £10 billion into market, which is decidedly upbeat. However, those words refurbishing houses. In my constituency, I remember might have been appropriate in 2010, when house building new kitchens and bathrooms going in, and new roofs under Labour fell to its lowest level for nearly 100 years going on the houses. A lot of work was done, so when and Labour was consistently breaking promises on the Secretary of State knocks the Labour Government, what it would do regarding housing. he should remember what they did to refurbish houses I took the trouble to read the 2007 conference speech that were neglected in the previous 18 years of the Tory made by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Government. Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—his first speech after becoming I want to talk about Northumberland. The county Prime Minister—in which he promised that Labour council has a waiting list of 10,000 people. It is not a big would provide 240,000 new homes a year. The following area, but it is rural and sparsity is an issue. A lot of year, the figure for new homes was 115,000—the lowest houses are needed in the countryside and there is a big since the 1920s. Labour said that it would build eco-homes, problem, as the Secretary of State said. There are not and it kicked off with five communities, which went up many brownfield sites in the countryside, and in extreme to 10. That was going to be the centrepiece of its circumstances we may have to use green-belt areas, as housing policy, but none of the communities was ever has been said. There is always a problem in the countryside, built or developed. Labour presided over a period of because it does not want houses to be built, so there is a regional spatial strategies, with a top-down “central big demonstration about it. I do not know where the Government know best” system, but that simply failed kids are going to live—sometimes we have to put houses to push forward land for development. in the countryside. The words in the motion are wrong, because things Northumberland county council has a plan to build are starting to happen with housing. The Government’s 2,000 houses a year, which would constitute 300 jobs a policies have begun to bear fruit, and nationally nearly year. That would put a lot of money into the economy—the 400,000 new homes have been delivered since 2010, and council reckons £10 million, if it can get the programme starts are up by 23%. The improvement applies not only going. The only problem is that, at this moment in time, to owner occupation: 99,000 affordable homes have it is completing 191 affordable houses. I do not have a been delivered since 2011, which is halfway towards problem with Help to Buy—if young people have a bit delivering the 170,000 homes that the Government seek of money and want to buy their own home, that is their to deliver by 2015. right—but we need houses for the poor and those The Government’s initiatives to encourage home people who cannot, even with Help to Buy, afford to ownership are working. The Help to Buy scheme, which buy. We need to build homes for them. There are 10,000 was launched in April 2013, is allowing people to get people on the waiting list in Northumberland, which started on the housing ladder. There were 5,000 sales has a population of only 300,000, and there is a problem in the first six months and 1,000 house builders are with people trying to get houses. registered. The importance of small and medium-sized Under the county’s core strategy, at least 30% of the developers has already been mentioned, and some 2,000 houses that it is trying to build will be affordable 90% of the developers registered under Help to Buy for poor people who cannot afford to buy a home on are small or medium-sized companies. There are now their own. There are three sites in my constituency 11 lenders covering the scheme. We are also meeting the 347 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 348

[Mark Pawsey] inadequate investment under Labour, simply because there were other priorities at the time, such as education aspirations of those in the social housing sector who and the health service. We have since had four years of wish to buy their own home by invigorating the right to cuts and low-level production. Members have talked buy. about levels of house building not seen since Stanley My constituency is in the middle of England, and it Baldwin’s time, but when the Government came into sits in the middle of many statistics. In 2010, the number office, why did they not seize the opportunity to boost of new builds in Rugby fell by 62%, which was inconsistent the economy by building houses, as was done in the with the level across the country as a whole, but in 1930s—in Stanley Baldwin’s time—as a means of recovering 2012-13, housing starts in the constituency increased by from recession? 260% to their highest level since 2007-08. Included in those figures is the gateway development of Eden park, Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend is right that the previous which the housing Minister visited last February, where Government did not build enough houses, but I echo three developers are building 1,400 new homes—and the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth selling them as fast as they can build them. The positive Valley (Mr Campbell) on the significant investment that attitude to development in my constituency is reflected went into the existing stock. My borough of Gateshead by an application for 6,200 new homes that will come benefitted from nearly £200 million as part of the before the local authority’s planning committee tomorrow, decent homes programme to reinvigorate the existing so things are moving across the country, especially in stock. my constituency. What would have happened if Labour was in power? Austin Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right. We did a With regard to measures on land banking, we have good job on decent homes and a limited job on home heard about state confiscation. The Home Builders building, but it was just not enough, given the scale of Federation, the industry’s trade body, has said that the problem. there is no incentive for land banking. Our present commitment is to build 200,000 houses, which I welcome. However, I argue that we also need a Mr Marcus Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that commitment to more public housing for rent. Let us the difference between his constituency and mine, where talk not about affordable housing, because it never is we have a Labour-run local authority, is that his local affordable, but about public housing for rent, because authority works with local people to deliver these things, that provides for the greatest need. Two fifths of the rather than imposing things that they do not want? population—the figure is higher in some parts of the country, especially London—simply cannot afford to Mark Pawsey: My local authority has a record of buy and cannot raise the money for a mortgage without going out and consulting local people. It has brought long years of struggle or winning the national lottery. together a local plan. We are living in a plan-led system, Those are the people who we need to help. We need a and those authorities that do not have a plan in place big build of public housing for rent to provide for their will experience difficulties, as I know is the case in my needs, and that is also needed to bring down the housing hon. Friend’s constituency. benefit bill, because the reason why it is now so high is Confiscating land is no way to solve the problem. because we have not built council and social housing, House builders want to build houses and there are no which is much cheaper to provide. incentives for sitting on land. The Opposition’s policy The Government’s proposals, inadequate and belated would result in fewer houses being built, because house as they are, will make things worse because increasing building would become a risky business to invest in and the discounts on the sale of council houses means fewer people would invest in house building companies. reducing the stock of available housing to meet people’s Developers supply what the market demands. There has needs. That policy will certainly not generate enough not been demand in the market in recent years, but the revenue to pay for new building. We should have a rule steps that the Government have taken, such as through that every council house sold must be replaced by a new Help to Buy, have reinvigorated demand. one. If we had introduced such a sensible provision Labour is also calling for new towns and garden from the start, we would have maintained the housing cities, but its eco-towns did not work. A much better stock. way of delivering houses is through sustainable urban The fact is that private sector build has not risen to extensions, such as those coming forward in constituencies 200,000 for many years. According to Shelter, its highest such as mine. ever total was 175,000. We need a more public housing for rent, which we always had in the past. We could 3.13 pm provide for that by removing the cap on local authority borrowing and channelling money into contracts to Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I congratulate build. We could ease the situation—perhaps as with the the Secretary of State, as he departs the Chamber, on a Bank of England’s quantitative easing—by helping the brilliant knockabout performance that bore as close a housing associations, which currently face huge problems resemblance to housing policy as my garden shed does with arrears, largely because of the bedroom tax. They to One Hyde Park. He emphasised what the Government need help, so they must be allowed to revalue their stock have achieved, but they have achieved very little; what so that they can raise money. he gave us was a rehash of old figures. Contrary to what the Secretary of State said, all the We are facing a housing crisis that has been preceded evidence points to a need for a massive attempt to build by 30 years of housing neglect due to 18 years of public housing for rent, which would energise the economy disinvestment under the Conservatives and 13 years of and put people back to work. That is the only way out 349 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 350 of a crisis resulting from 30 years of neglect and house I do not believe that we should build garden cities, building rates well below the target that we need, which but there is certainly an argument for building new is 240,000 a year. villages in areas and not expanding the existing villages. Planning as a whole in order to have the necessary facilities built in those villages is a better way forward 3.18 pm than adding developments on to each village. The Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I will neighbourhood plans that this Government have focus my remarks on my constituency and on Leeds. empowered local communities to use can then be put The housing stock obviously needs to be increased, but into full effect. I have taken issue with the Leeds core strategy and the amount of housing it says needs to be built over the 3.22 pm next 15 years. The university of Leeds—that august institution is in the constituency of the right hon. Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Like me, Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)—has stated many Member, particularly those on the Labour that building 70,000 houses in Leeds would not be Benches but perhaps others as well, will have had the completed until 2060, which raises the question: why experience of knocking on doors in our constituencies, should they be built over the next 15 years? There is peeking behind the door and seeing people living in therefore an argument to be had about housing figures terrible squalor in poor private sector rental accommodation in different parts of the country. and at the hands of their landlords. When we talk about housing, we are not just talking about building new I totally disagree with the hon. Member for Blyth family homes, important though that is; it is also incredibly Valley (Mr Campbell), who is no longer in his place, important to realise that a lack of housing supply hits about villages needing to expand to cope with the the most vulnerable the most. housing crisis. One of the major pieces of legislation that this Government have brought in introduces I want to say a few words about the place where I neighbourhood plans, which allow people in the villages live, was born, grew up, went to school in, and now in a local area to say, “If we want our village to represent—Luton—and why I believe that it is time for survive—the little local shop to carry on, the pub radical action. In Luton, through to 2030, we will to survive, continued use of the village hall, and so require some 23,500 to 33,500 new dwellings. That is an on—we need to invest in housing.” People in some of enormous number. It points to the fact that Luton is a my villages may feel that we need more bungalows for town with a young population and large families and elderly people, while those in other villages may feel that has a large population that has increased through the there is not enough affordable housing and that we need migration of successive generations. It has always had to build two-bedroom terraced homes that would help to look just beyond its boundaries in order to expand. young people to stay in the village where they were That process has ground to a halt, and we are facing brought up. serious challenges. The problem that we have in Leeds and in my There is limited capacity regarding developable land constituency is that as soon as these plans are proposed, in Luton. We reckon we could squeeze in about 6,000 the developer says, “Well, that’s very good, but actually homes in the next 15 to 20 years, but we have to balance I want to build not 20 houses there but 200 or 400 houses.” that against other competing needs. What is the point of That would completely change the nature of the villages in a house without a job to go with it? How do we provide my constituency. Leeds city council has deemed that the good-quality green space? We have a massive problem constituency overall has to take 1,200 houses. If we put with primary school allocation that will become a massive that in the context of there being 41,000 houses to start problem with secondary school allocation. We need to with, we can see that it represents an enormous expansion. build new schools, let alone new houses. This is where Under these plans, the villages of Micklefield and Kippax the challenge arises, and I can appreciate it because I and the town of Garforth will all blend into one huge hear about it in many of the places that I visit. I am a development. I believe that the figures are wrong, as I Labour activist, and I sometimes share the frustration said when I gave evidence on the core strategy, and if I about our record in government in delivering more had more time I would expand on that. However, the homes. However, people forget that, from 1997 to 2010 local authority has the power to identify more sensibly across the six counties in the east of England, we built where larger-scale developments could go. the equivalent of a seventh county in terms of housing, I am unashamed to say on the record that I support and that was still not enough to keep up with the the idea of freeing up land in the northern part of my demand that existed. constituency in an area called Headley Fields, which is It is important that we have new towns, garden cities, out towards the parish of Bramham, the village that I and so on, but, particularly in the south-east of England, reside in, although nowhere near it. That land could we need to grapple with the problem whereby towns feel take the housing allocation for the next 15 years proposed that they are unable to expand when we know that there by Leeds city council. Because it was there and could be is a great social need for them to do so. That is why I planned from day one, proper infrastructure, such as welcome the proposals made by Labour Front Benchers transport facilities, pubs, schools, and doctors surgeries on the right to grow, which would give local authorities could be put in place. At the moment we face the powers that they otherwise would not have. It is very problem of 5,000 houses coming in through what I call different from a top-down solution such as the former death by a thousand cuts—putting 400 houses into a regional spatial strategies that set a specific target. We village here and 400 houses into a village there. That need a new arbitration body to enable discussions between would mean that not enough would come out of the local authorities to take place, but also, crucially, to new homes bonus to provide the extra facilities, such as reach a conclusion whereby we agree together what we the local schools, that were needed. need to build and how we are going to build it. 351 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 352

Alex Cunningham: My hon. Friend will have heard of the boom. It would be good to hear a word of the Secretary of State’s rather tongue-in-cheek proposal apology for not just the housing situation we inherited, to nationalise brownfield sites, which really do need but the financial situation, too. development. At the same time, his Department is The coalition Government have started to put things approving development on greenfield sites in the right. Our £4.5 billion investment programme is delivering neighbouring constituency to mine. Does my hon. Friend social homes for rent at only half the public subsidy agree that we should incentivise brownfield site development required under Labour. Labour took us below the 4 million in order to get building done there instead? homes mark nine years ago. It took another six years of Labour Government to take us a further 72,000 homes Gavin Shuker: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. below that, but I am very pleased indeed that it has The pendulum has swung away from brownfield taken three years for the coalition Government to bring development as a result of this Government’s changes. them back. That is why we should bring in a right to grow in conjunction with the pendulum swinging back towards Sheila Gilmore: Does the right hon. Gentleman not using brownfield first. These things are not rocket science, appreciate that one of the reasons he is able to stand up but there is political ideology behind them. That is why and say that the subsidy for building affordable homes the Secretary of State’s dismissal of our proposals was will be lower is that they will not be truly affordable so short-sighted. We all recognise that we need more homes? That will result in yet another ratcheting up of housing and further housing growth. That requires a the housing benefit bill. The cost, therefore, will be mechanism that balances the requirements of local considerable. authorities to deliver for the people in their borough boundaries with the need to be good neighbours as Sir Andrew Stunell: I thank the hon. Lady for her well. Ministers are scaremongering about greenfield intervention, but the fact of the matter is that we are sites being used, but that would take place within the replacing social and affordable homes that should never context of the existing national planning framework. have been lost in the first place: 421,000 homes were lost If we are to find a workable solution to many of the from the stock. As every expert, academic and, indeed, problems we face in allowing towns to expand, we will politician recognises, if we want growth in housing need to have an overall mechanism, but this Government overall, there has to be growth in social housing. Labour have put in place a series of different mechanisms. They blew its chance to deliver that and it is the coalition that try one, try the other, try the next, change the rules, is creating the opportunity for it to happen. issue a press release and make an announcement, but Contrary to what the hon. Member for Great Grimsby we have not seen the delivery, and that is because it is said, this country now has a policy whereby, when a hard to do this stuff. Bold political leadership is required social home is sold, another will be built in its place. He to bring it about. would be right to say that it takes a little while to get the planning permission and other stuff in place, but the 3.27 pm policy and the delivery of it are there. [Interruption.] I ask the groaners on the Opposition Benches: where was Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): I start by that policy during their 13 years? Some 400,000 homes making a declaration—not one that appears in my were lost and no attempt whatever was made to replace entry in the register but to say that I spent 13 years them, leaving the waiting list at a record level. As the working in the architects department of a new town, Secretary of State reported, it has now, thank goodness, putting up homes, factories and shops. It was very easy dropped. to do that because there was no local consultation, no involvement of local democracy, no hassle, and no The Liberal Democrat influence on this coalition localism. I want to hear a little from Labour Front Government means that we are delivering more social Benchers about the strong tension between the words in homes and, at the end of this Parliament, we will have their motion about creating new towns and their recent an increased stock, not a reduced stock, which is exactly paper-thin conversion to a commitment to localism. what Labour left us with—a reduction of 421,000. We shall have an increase of 150,000. I am proud of that, I also want to hear from Labour Front Benchers, as I and all Government Members should be proud of it, heard from the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin too. Mitchell), a word of apology. In the 13 years that Labour were in Government, Stockport lost 2,683 social 3.33 pm homes and none were built in their place, and 421,000 homes were lost from the social housing stock across Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): If people the whole of England, which the hon. Gentleman, to listened to Government Members, they would not think his credit, pointed out. there was a housing crisis in this country—but there is, At the height of the boom in 2003, 90,000 homes because there are people who come to my surgery who were lost. In 2004, 71,000 were lost and in 2005 the cannot get a home to live in or who cannot get a home figure was 69,000. In those three years alone, 230,000 that they need. They cannot afford the rising prices or social homes for rent—a quarter of a million homes—were the rising prices. That is this country’s housing crisis. lost from the housing stock. That took the number of I challenge the Secretary of State with the comments homes in the social rented sector below 4 million for the made by his then Housing Minister to the Communities first time since 1955. At that time, the shadow Chancellor and Local Government Committee three years ago, was telling us that there should be less regulation of when he said that the “gold standard” on which the banks and the then Prime Minister was telling us, Government would be judged was building more homes solemnly and repeatedly, that he had got rid of boom than were being built before the recession. The Government and bust. He turned out to be 50% right: he had got rid have been building about half the number of homes 353 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 354 that were built before the recession. However they choose Netherlands; why cannot we do it here? Instead of to dress up the figures, they have failed by their own giving guarantees for mortgages, let us put them into standards. building homes. As some of my colleagues have said, that is not a We could take the cap off local authority borrowing, terribly hard standard to meet, because the Labour and 60,000 homes could be built immediately. I think Government did not build enough homes. We built that that has cross-party support in the House, so why more homes than this Government are building, but we do the Government not do that? It would not cost any did not build enough. We had a brilliant record on the more taxpayers’ money, and it could be done instantly. decent homes programme and on putting right the We could look at the housing grant paid to housing wrongs of the underinvestment of the previous Tory associations, which lies on their books as a debt. If it Government, who allowed the stock to deteriorate, but was released tomorrow and that grant was written we did not build enough homes. off—again, there would be no cost to the Treasury, Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): The Labour because it has already been paid out—we could free up Government spent £18 billion in 1997 to sort out 1.5 million housing associations’ ability to borrow and build more homes. homes as well. We could look at self-build, which is the hidden Mr Betts: Absolutely, and that brought great delight element in a potential housing renewal. The Government to many tenants up and down the country. could go to see what has been done in the Netherlands, The Government can pray in aid the fact that with where there is not so much self-building as self-constructing, the fallout from the banking crisis the private housing which involves getting local authorities to lay out sites sector in this country suffered a decline in demand, but and getting planners involved on a simple basis. They they compounded the problem by cutting the social could go to see how people in the Netherlands, often housing budget by 60%. The right hon. Member for with the involvement of small builders, are building Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) was at that time a their own homes—the homes they want, because they Minister in the Government who allowed that to happen, have designed them—at about 80% of the cost of a and he should stand up and apologise for it. The reality house bought from a private developer. That could be is that the cut was 60%. Government expenditure as a another element. whole was cut by 20%, but social housing capital There is no one silver bullet, but the report includes expenditure was singled out for the biggest cut of all several measures which, if the Government implemented major Government programmes, which has compounded them straight away, would help to remove the immediate the problem and made it worse. problems of the housing crisis and set us in the right I welcome the Labour leadership’s commitment to direction. move towards building 200,000 homes in this country by 2020. That is a good commitment, but I want to see 3.38 pm it go further in the longer term: we must get to 250,000 Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): to get demand and supply back in sync. The reality is I will be very brief, but I want to pick up the point made that the construction industry in this country is now in by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove such a mess that it could not respond more quickly to a (Sir Andrew Stunell) about the good initiatives taken by higher target: prices of bricks and labour are already this Government. The fact is that there are more social going up in the industry, because it has got down to homes than when we took office in 2010. Progress has such a low level. It is therefore realistic to set that target. been made, and one could rattle off the many good The issue is that the private sector in this country, as things that have been introduced. They include, for has already been said, has never built consistently more example, encouragement for empty homes to be brought than 150,000 homes. If we are to get up to a figure of back into use, which is a win-win situation. There is also 200,000, a large part of that must come from the social the whole concept of neighbourhood planning—really housing sector, from local authorities and housing involving communities in making important decisions associations. To enable that to happen, we will have to that will increase the supply of housing. spend some public money. We must all recognise that: if Obviously, however, there is more to do. I appreciate this is a crisis that is a priority for us to deal with, some that the limit on the housing revenue account has been public expenditure will have to go in as well. raised, but I want the borrowing cap to be raised for all I hope that we can get to a general situation in which councils. I would like more initiatives to increase land we recognise that to achieve the stabilisation of house supply. There was a pledge to pilot community land prices and rents, as has happened in Germany, housing auctions, and I would be interested to know what supply has to meet housing demand in the long term. progress has been made on them. There are therefore How to achieve that will require the sort of cross-party innovative things that we can do. The answer is not to agreement that we had in the 1960s and 1970s, when knock the very good work that has been done, but to successive Governments of different political persuasions accept that there is consensus on tackling our real built the homes that the country needed. I hope that we housing crisis, and on the fact that by tackling it we can can get back to such a situation. contribute to economic growth and create important I want to refer to my Select Committee’s 2012 report jobs and apprenticeships for young people. We can on “Financing of new housing supply”, in which we create a win-win situation. considered and proposed the idea of a housing bank, with guarantees for institutional investment to go into 3.40 pm the social housing and private housing sectors. I recognise Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): that the Government have gone a little way towards It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. We have had a that, but not sufficiently. That has been done in the wide-ranging discussion about housing, which is an 355 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 356

[Emma Reynolds] a bomb under the British economy. However, the Government continue to do next to nothing to boost issue that is close to the hearts of many of my constituents supply, which is pushing home ownership further out of and important to people across the country. reach for young people and families. It is patently clear that the Government are in complete While the Government are clearly complacent, the denial about two things: the scale of the housing crisis Labour party understands the scale of the challenge. that we face and the scale of their failure to tackle that My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition crisis. I was astonished that the Secretary of State came announced in September that a Labour Government here today to tell us that we should rejoice in the would build at least 200,000 homes a year by 2020. That “sustained turnaround” in the housing market. His is a realistic but ambitious agenda. We have asked statements fly in the face of the facts. Last year, only Sir Michael Lyons to chair a commission that will draw 107,000 homes were completed. That is not even half up a detailed road map towards that aim, which is the number of homes that is needed to keep up with effectively to double the level of house building. There demand according to the figures of his own Department. are specific areas that the commission will consider and It is regrettable that the Government are presiding specific problems that the Government are reluctant to over the lowest level of house building in peacetime recognise. I will refer to those briefly. The first concerns since the 1920s. If the current trends were to continue, problems with the land market, the second is the restriction there would be a breathtaking housing shortage of on communities’ right to grow, and the third is the lack some 2 million homes by 2020. The housing shortage is of any action by the Government on new garden cities central to the cost of living crisis. Young people and and new towns. families across England are struggling to get on the First, there are deep and structural problems with the housing ladder and struggling with rents that are at a land market. My hon. Friends the Members for Great record high. The first thing that the Government did Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and for Sheffield South East when they got into power was to cut the affordable (Mr Betts) have stressed that even in the good times the homes budget by 60%—a huge cut. It is therefore no private sector did not deliver anywhere near the number surprise that in the last year alone, there has been a of homes we need to keep up with demand. It is clear 29% drop in the number of affordable homes that are that developers are sitting on land and waiting for its being built. value to increase. The Government seem to be in denial There are fewer home owners since the election, about land banking—although some of their Back despite the previous housing Minister, who is now Chairman Benchers seem to recognise it as a problem—but the of the Conservative party, claiming that the Government International Monetary Fund and the Conservative would increase home ownership. Tragically, homelessness Mayor of London clearly say it is a problem. We intend and rough sleeping have risen in every year under this to give local authorities the power to escalate fees on Government. Both are up by about a third since 2010. developers who sit on land, and if that does not work to The number of families who are in temporary bed and use compulsory purchase orders if those developers still breakfast accommodation is tragically at a 10-year high. refuse to get on and build the houses that this country so desperately needs and for which communities are What is the Government’s approach to the biggest crying out. housing crisis in a generation? It seems to be a flurry of announcements. As my right hon. Friend the shadow We also have a problem with the dominance of big Secretary of State said in his opening speech, there have house builders. Small house builders face major problems been no fewer than 400 announcements in the past accessing land as well as finance, and the market is three and a half years. However, their many warm dominated by a few big house builders. That was not words have not been matched by action. always the case; in the late 1980s, small and medium-sized house builders delivered two-thirds of new homes, but It seems that the housing Minister recognises that now SME builders build only around one third of new that is a problem. He came to the House in November homes. We must find ways to make the market more and told us that diverse and competitive—I hope we can agree on that. “the new homes bonus is not about encouraging people to build homes.”—[Official Report, 25 November 2013; Vol. 571, c. 11.] Secondly, over the past three and a half years we have had warm words—in particular from the Deputy Prime Rather confusingly, he said later in a written parliamentary Minister, but also earlier from the Prime Minister—about answer to me that it was an incentive to build homes. garden cities, yet not one measure has been taken to put Perhaps today—third time lucky—he will clarify what in place conditions to deliver them. It was even reported the new homes bonus is for. The National Audit Office last week at the start of the new year that the Prime and the Public Accounts Committee have both concluded Minister has forbidden Ministers from identifying any that it has had little impact on housing supply. sites for potential new towns during this Parliament. On the demand side, the Government have introduced Some would say that is pouring cold water on the Help to Buy. We strongly support help for first-time proposal; others might say it is putting it into a deep buyers but, crucially, Help to Buy must be matched by freeze. Labour, on the other hand, is committed to new help to build. The Secretary of State for Business, towns, which must form part of the solution to the Innovation and Skills, who sits around the Cabinet housing crisis. The post-war Labour Government table with the Secretary of State for Communities and started 11 new towns because they had the determination Local Government, the cross-party Treasury Committee and vision to act. That is exactly what we need now and and the former Governor of the Bank of England have what the Government are lacking. The Lyons commission all said that the scheme carries risks for the economy. is looking at ways to incentivise local authorities to The Prime Minister’s new housing adviser, Alex Morton, come up with sites, and my right hon. Friend the has gone even further by saying that it risks detonating shadow Chancellor recently committed a Labour Treasury 357 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 358 to using guarantees—much like those provided for the This is a valuable and important debate. Like the Help to Buy scheme—to support the building of new Secretary of State, I congratulate the Opposition on towns. securing their second debate on housing since 2010. The Leader of the Opposition says that housing is an important Mr Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): I part of their agenda, but to have secured only two understand that the hon. Lady is on the record as saying Opposition day debates in that time does not demonstrate that five new towns will be built in the first five years of the passion that his party claims it has for housing. The a Labour Government. What funding does she have for debate gives us an opportunity to remind the House that? and the country of the mess left by the previous Labour Government, and of the Opposition’s preference for Emma Reynolds: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman old, top-down diktats by which they tell the country and his time as housing Minister. I actually said—he what to do, and tell councils and local people what they did not read out a direct quote—that I would love to see should be doing and where they should be living. a Labour Government starting four or five new towns. We are looking at current legislation on new towns, and Stephen McPartland: Will the Minister give way? also to learn lessons from the generation of new towns that were delivered in the post-war period. We have Kris Hopkins: By all means. asked Sir Michael Lyons and a panel of experts, including the Town and Country Planning Association and the Stephen McPartland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend big home builder Barratt—[Interruption.] Well, we have for giving way. Does he agree that the “Right to Grow” done more than the Secretary of State is doing. He may policy, which Labour launched in my Stevenage chunter at me from a sedentary position, but he has constituency without telling me in advance, is already in done exactly nothing on this agenda and is incredibly tatters? Stevenage borough council’s published draft complacent. local plan makes no reference whatever to the need for additional housing in North Hertfordshire district council. Mr Prisk: rose— There have been no representations made between the offices of the two different authorities, and North Hertfordshire is currently doing its local plan. Emma Reynolds: I will not give way again to the same person. Kris Hopkins: If it is the case that those representations Finally, the Government are in complete denial about have not been made, my hon. Friend may want to write the situation of towns and cities such as Stevenage, to the Prime Minister. If that was my local council and Oxford and Luton—which my hon. Friend the Member my neighbouring council was going to raid my green for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) spoke eloquently about— belt and green spaces to facilitate housing in a neighbouring where local communities are crying out for new homes council, I would imagine that, like him, I would be but neighbouring local authorities are blocking them extremely unhappy. every step of the way. The Government introduced the Despite the Opposition’s claims, it was under the duty to co-operate, but they must accept that those fine previous Administration that house building fell to its words are not translated into action. Half a million lowest peacetime rate since the 1920s, with only 107,000 pounds has been paid out to lawyers in Stevenage over homes completed in 2010. They imposed regional targets the dispute with North Hertfordshire. I would rather on local communities as part of their top-down regime. that money was spent on bricks and mortar. Their approach is that Whitehall and Labour know better. The complete failure to invest between 1997 and Stephen McPartland rose— 2010 resulted, as has been said, in some 427,000 fewer social houses. Under this Government, come 2015 there Emma Reynolds: I am running out of time and I will be more social housing—something that Members think the hon. Gentleman had a chance to intervene on recognise—and we can be extremely proud of that. In my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central contrast to Labour’s record, we have given people local (Hilary Benn). In conclusion, in order to boost the control of neighbourhood planning, as my hon. Friend number of homes being built, crucially we need leadership the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) has from both central Government and local government. just said. I encourage local authorities that have not Regrettably, this Government are failing to step up to completed their local plan to get on with it, to engage the plate. Warm words are simply not good enough and with their local communities and give power to local our constituents deserve better. Other countries manage individuals to shape their community, and to remove to get this right and it should not be beyond us to do so red tape. too. That is why I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to support tonight’s motion. Alec Shelbrooke: Does my hon. Friend agree that all the Government’s progress in this Parliament in allowing 3.49 pm local people to engage with local authorities on planning would be completely undermined by a Labour Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for who would go back to the Stalinist tactic of land seizure Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): and building wherever they want? May I first offer my condolences to the family of Paul Goggins? When I was appointed to this position, he Kris Hopkins: It is clear, as an hon. Member said very kindly welcomed me. He was generous in the way earlier, that localism is just paper thin for Labour. The that he approached many Members across the House, number of first-time buyers is at a five-year high. Help and he was passionate about housing too. I put on to Buy has made a significant contribution, helping record my condolences to his family and friends. hard-working families to buy their own home; promoting 359 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 360

[Kris Hopkins] Not only did Labour fail to deliver the houses promised, having nearly bankrupted the country, it took the livelihoods quality and choice in the rented sector by bringing in of 250,000 construction workers and destroyed thousands private incentives and not just using expensive taxpayer of businesses by its actions. It talks about a cost-of-living subsidies; and helping small and medium-sized builders crisis, but how many families did it break by its actions? to get back on their feet—more than 1,000 registered How many meals did it take off the table by its actions? builders are now supporting the Help to Buy equity How many summer holidays were lost? How many scheme. more homeless people were created by its actions? Yet it never apologises. It always blames somebody else. It is Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): On public the “Not me, guv!” party. In 2007, the number of subsidies, is the Minister happy that for every £4 that housing completions reached 176,000. By 2010, that goes in housing benefit, only £1 is spent building homes? had dropped to 107,000—a drop of 70,000 houses in Surely, it would be better to reverse that and build three years. That is what it achieved. That is what homes at affordable rents that people can live in. Labour did for housing in this country and that is why we are still putting things right. Kris Hopkins: If we did not have a £180 billion As housing Minister, I have had the privilege of deficit, we might be in a better position to offer more meeting mothers from Peckham who have secured a public subsidy, but we do not have that opportunity shared ownership home; a right-to-buy couple from because the last Government nearly bankrupted the Swindon who have now got their own home; a young country. couple who have a house as a consequence of help to buy; builders in Sheffield building houses yet again; and Sheila Gilmore rose— businesses and brick factories in Stoke, working flat out. We know that houses are important to the economy, Kris Hopkins: No, I will not take any more interventions. which is why we are determined to deliver more of One of the common themes of this debate was that, them. as the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) Question put. recognised, Labour did not deliver enough housing The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 302. while in power. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) is a huge supporter of housing growth, Division No. 171] [4 pm and I know from my conversations with him that he is committed to ensuring that local communities shape AYES their own housing. I look forward to further debates Abbott, Ms Diane Champion, Sarah about large-scale housing, which I know he greatly Abrahams, Debbie Chapman, Jenny supports. On land banking, he said that confiscating Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Clark, Katy land was not the way forward and that if Labour’s Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Clarke, rh Mr Tom policy was implemented, it would result in fewer houses Alexander, Heidi Clwyd, rh Ann being built. Ali, Rushanara Connarty, Michael Allen, Mr Graham Cooper, rh Yvette The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) Anderson, Mr David Crausby, Mr David said many things and recognised that Labour did not Ashworth, Jonathan Creagh, Mary deliver enough houses, but he also referred to his garden Austin, Ian Creasy, Stella shed. My hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell Bailey, Mr Adrian Cruddas, Jon (Alec Shelbrooke) talked about local plans and a strong Bain, Mr William Cryer, John local voice, and I know that he is a powerful voice in his Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Alex community. The right hon. Member for Hazel Grove Barron, rh Kevin Cunningham, Mr Jim (Sir Andrew Stunell) talked about localism and the Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Sir Tony increasing number of social houses. He also pointed out Begg, Dame Anne Curran, Margaret Benn, rh Hilary Dakin, Nic that Labour delivered 50% of its desire to get rid of Benton, Mr Joe Danczuk, Simon boom and bust—it got rid of the boom bit. [Laughter.] Berger, Luciana Darling, rh Mr Alistair I am sorry for stealing the line. [Interruption.] Betts, Mr Clive David, Wayne Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davidson, Mr Ian Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Blears, rh Hazel Davies, Geraint The House should listen to the Minister. Blenkinsop, Tom De Piero, Gloria Blomfield, Paul Denham, rh Mr John Kris Hopkins: The Chairman of the Select Committee Blunkett, rh Mr David Dobbin, Jim also recognised that Labour did not deliver enough Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Docherty, Thomas houses when in government. Brennan, Kevin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Brown, Lyn Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. On this issue, as on many, Labour has a problem with Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Donohoe, Mr Brian H. credibility.It was the party that allowed access to mortgages Brown, Mr Russell Doran, Mr Frank six, seven, eight times individuals’ salaries. It was a Bryant, Chris Dowd, Jim totally unsustainable path that contributed to the banking Buck, Ms Karen Doyle, Gemma crisis that led to the deepest recession since the 1920s. Burden, Richard Durkan, Mark Even in the boom years, it failed to deliver the required Burnham, rh Andy Eagle, Ms Angela housing. The total build dropped to the lowest number Byrne, rh Mr Liam Eagle, Maria in 100 years. It promoted eco-towns—10 in total—but Campbell, Mr Alan Efford, Clive not one appeared. New Labour at its finest: all spin and Campbell, Mr Ronnie Elliott, Julie absolutely no delivery. Caton, Martin Ellman, Mrs Louise 361 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 362

Engel, Natascha McDonald, Andy Umunna, Mr Chuka Winnick, Mr David Esterson, Bill McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Vaz, Valerie Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Walley, Joan Wood, Mike Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Watson, Mr Tom Woodcock, John Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Watts, Mr Dave Wright, David Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Wright, Mr Iain Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Williams, Hywel Tellers for the Ayes: Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Williamson, Chris Stephen Doughty and Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Wilson, Sammy Phil Wilson Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Gapes, Mike Meale, Sir Alan NOES Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Adams, Nigel Cox, Mr Geoffrey Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh Edward Afriyie, Adam Crabb, Stephen Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Aldous, Peter Crouch, Tracey Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, Austin Amess, Mr David Davey, rh Mr Edward Godsiff, Mr Roger Moon, Mrs Madeleine Andrew, Stuart Davies, David T. C. Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Arbuthnot, rh Mr James (Monmouth) Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Baker, Norman Davies, Glyn Green, Kate Morris, Grahame M. Baldry, rh Sir Tony Davies, Philip Greenwood, Lilian (Easington) Baldwin, Harriett de Bois, Nick Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Barker, rh Gregory Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Barwell, Gavin Dorries, Nadine Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Paul Bebb, Guto Doyle-Price, Jackie Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Beith, rh Sir Alan Duddridge, James Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa Bellingham, Mr Henry Duncan, rh Mr Alan Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela Benyon, Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Beresford, Sir Paul Ellis, Michael Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Berry, Jake Ellison, Jane Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Bingham, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hermon, Lady Paisley, Ian Binley, Mr Brian Elphicke, Charlie Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Birtwistle, Gordon Eustice, George Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Blackman, Bob Evans, Graham Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen Blunt, Mr Crispin Evans, Jonathan Hoey, Kate Powell, Lucy Boles, Nick Evennett, Mr David Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Bone, Mr Peter Fallon, rh Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bottomley, Sir Peter Farron, Tim Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Jamie Bradley, Karen Featherstone, Lynne Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Mr Steve Brady, Mr Graham Field, Mark Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Emma Brake, rh Tom Foster, rh Mr Don Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Jonathan Bray, Angie Fox,rhDrLiam Jarvis, Dan Ritchie, Ms Margaret Brazier, Mr Julian Freer, Mike Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, John Bridgen, Andrew Fuller, Richard Johnson, Diana Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brine, Steve Gale, Sir Roger Jones, Graham Rotheram, Steve Brokenshire, James Garnier, Sir Edward Jones, Helen Roy, Mr Frank Brooke, Annette Garnier, Mark Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Lindsay Bruce, Fiona Gauke, Mr David Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ruane, Chris Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm George, Andrew Keeley, Barbara Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Buckland, Mr Robert Gibb, Mr Nick Kendall, Liz Sarwar, Anas Burley, Mr Aidan Gilbert, Stephen Khan, rh Sadiq Sawford, Andy Burns, Conor Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lammy, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Burns, rh Mr Simon Glen, John Lavery, Ian Shannon, Jim Burrowes, Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Lazarowicz, Mark Sharma, Mr Virendra Burstow, rh Paul Goodwill, Mr Robert Leslie, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Burt, rh Alistair Gove, rh Michael Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sheridan, Jim Burt, Lorely Graham, Richard Lewis, Mr Ivan Shuker, Gavin Byles, Dan Grant, Mrs Helen Love, Mr Andrew Simpson, David Cairns, Alun Gray, Mr James Lucas, Caroline Skinner, Mr Dennis Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grayling, rh Chris Lucas, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Green, rh Damian Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Mr Andrew Carmichael, Neil Greening, rh Justine Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Angela Carswell, Mr Douglas Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Nick Cash, Mr William Gummer, Ben Malhotra, Seema Smith, Owen Chishti, Rehman Hague, rh Mr William Mann, John Stuart, Ms Gisela Clappison, Mr James Halfon, Robert Marsden, Mr Gordon Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Clark, rh Greg Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCabe, Steve Tami, Mark Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hammond, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Thornberry, Emily Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hancock, Matthew McClymont, Gregg Timms, rh Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hancock, Mr Mike McCrea, Dr William Trickett, Jon Collins, Damian Hands, Greg McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Derek Colvile, Oliver Harper, Mr Mark 363 Housing8 JANUARY 2014 Housing 364

Harris, Rebecca Lloyd, Stephen Phillips, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Hart, Simon Lord, Jonathan Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swales, Ian Harvey, Sir Nick Luff, Sir Peter Pincher, Christopher Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lumley, Karen Prisk, Mr Mark Swire, rh Mr Hugo Heald, Oliver Macleod, Mary Pritchard, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Heath, Mr David Main, Mrs Anne Pugh, John Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Heaton-Harris, Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Raab, Mr Dominic Thornton, Mike Hemming, John Maynard, Paul Randall, rh Sir John Thurso, John Henderson, Gordon McCartney, Jason Reckless, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Hendry, Charles McCartney, Karl Redwood, rh Mr John Tomlinson, Justin Hinds, Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tredinnick, David Hoban, Mr Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Reid, Mr Alan Truss, Elizabeth Hollingbery, George McPartland, Stephen Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Turner, Mr Andrew Hollobone, Mr Philip McVey, Esther Robathan, rh Mr Tyrie, Mr Andrew Hopkins, Kris Menzies, Mark Andrew Uppal, Paul Howarth, Sir Gerald Metcalfe, Stephen Robertson, Mr Laurence Vaizey, Mr Edward Howell, John Miller, rh Maria Rosindell, Andrew Vickers, Martin Hughes, rh Simon Mills, Nigel Rudd, Amber Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Huppert, Dr Julian Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Ruffley, Mr David Walker, Mr Charles Hurd, Mr Nick Moore, rh Michael Russell, Sir Bob Walker, Mr Robin Jackson, Mr Stewart Mordaunt, Penny Rutley, David Ward, Mr David James, Margot Morgan, Nicky Sanders, Mr Adrian Watkinson, Dame Javid, Sajid Morris, Anne Marie Sandys, Laura Angela Jenkin, Mr Bernard Morris, David Scott, Mr Lee Johnson, Gareth Morris, James Selous, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Jones, Andrew Mosley, Stephen Sharma, Alok Webb, Steve Jones, rh Mr David Mowat, David Shelbrooke, Alec Wharton, James Jones, Mr Marcus Mulholland, Greg Shepherd, Sir Richard Wheeler, Heather Kawczynski, Daniel Mundell, rh David Simmonds, Mark White, Chris Kelly, Chris Munt, Tessa Simpson, Mr Keith Whittaker, Craig Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Murray, Sheryll Smith, Chloe Whittingdale, Mr John Kirby, Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Smith, Henry Wiggin, Bill Knight, rh Sir Greg Neill, Robert Smith, Julian Willetts, rh Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Newmark, Mr Brooks Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Newton, Sarah Soames, rh Nicholas Williams, Stephen Lancaster, Mark Nokes, Caroline Soubry, Anna Williamson, Gavin Latham, Pauline Norman, Jesse Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wilson, Mr Rob Leadsom, Andrea Nuttall, Mr David Spencer, Mr Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Lee, Jessica O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Wright, Simon Lee, Dr Phillip Offord, Dr Matthew Stephenson, Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Leech, Mr John Ollerenshaw, Eric Stewart, Bob Young, rh Sir George Lefroy, Jeremy Opperman, Guy Stewart, Iain Zahawi, Nadhim Leigh, Sir Edward Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Stewart, Rory Leslie, Charlotte Parish, Neil Streeter, Mr Gary Tellers for the Noes: Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Pawsey, Mark Stride, Mel Mr Sam Gyimah and Lewis, Brandon Penning, Mike Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Jenny Willott Lewis, Dr Julian Penrose, John Lidington, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Question accordingly negatived. Lilley, rh Mr Peter Perry, Claire 365 8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 366

Fixed Odds Betting Terminals over-the-counter betting, and that is what is driving the clustering of betting shops on our high streets. However, Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I inform the Government are refusing to deal with the problem. the House that Mr Speaker has selected the amendment They must accept that there are more betting shops in the name of the Prime Minister. close to areas of high deprivation. This is borne out by research— 4.15 pm Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab) rose— Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): I beg to move, That this House is concerned that the clustering of betting Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) rose— shops in or close to deprived communities is being driven by increasing revenue from fixed odds betting terminals (FOBT) Clive Efford: I will certainly give way when I have rather than traditional over the counter betting; believes that this finished making this point. has encouraged betting shop operators to open more than one A report into machine density by experts in gambling premises in close proximity to one another; is aware of the including Heather Wardle, who leads key studies such growing concern in many communities about the detrimental as the gambling prevalence survey, has stated: effect this is having on the diversity and character of UK high streets; is alarmed that people can stake as much as £100 every “The distribution of gambling machines in Great Britain…displays 20 seconds on these machines; is further concerned that the a significant association with areas of socio-economic deprivation. practice of single staffing in betting shops leaves staff vulnerable The profile of the resident population living in HDMZs”— and deters them from intervening if customers suffer heavy losses high-density machine zones— thereby undermining efforts by the betting industry to protect “mirrors the profile of those most at-risk of experiencing harm vulnerable customers; further believes that local authorities should from gambling.” be able to establish a separate planning class for betting shops and We cannot stand back and allow this to continue. that they should be given additional licensing powers to determine the number of FOBT machines within existing and proposed Alex Cunningham: In my constituency there is one shops and to require that the machines are modified to slow the fixed odds betting terminal for every 700 people who rate of play and to interrupt when people play for long periods; and calls on the Government to put local people before the are eligible to play them, and the vast majority are in interests of the betting shop operators and give local authorities areas of high deprivation. In Broadland, a southern the powers they need to respond to concerns from their local constituency, there is one machine for every 18,300 communities and stop the proliferation of FOBT machines and people. Is that not a clear confirmation that the poor betting shops. are being targeted by this empty promise of great wealth? Many people throughout the country are concerned Do we not need to do something about this? about the impact of betting shops on their high streets. They are worried that the shops are clustered in close Clive Efford: Sadly, that situation is repeated in too proximity to one another, and that they are too often many places throughout the country, and it is time that close to communities with high levels of deprivation. the Government recognised that the problem can be We are not suggesting that there is a problem in every dealt with only at a local level. community, which is why we are not proposing that the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) rose— Government should introduce a blanket ban. Instead, we are calling for local councillors to be given real Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con) rose— powers so that they are able to respond to the concerns of their local communities and to act responsibly in the Clive Efford: I shall give way to the hon. Lady and interests of the people who elect them. Too often, we then to the hon. Gentleman. hear of councillors being frustrated that they are unable Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful to support local residents. Time after time, people turn case about how betting shops and fixed odds betting up at local planning or licensing meetings and watch in terminals are proliferating in some of our most deprived disbelief as councillors who are known to oppose plans areas. We have 70 FOBTs in Brighton, Pavilion alone. are forced to allow another betting shop to open because Does he share my concern that some betting shops are the legal process favours the lawyers representing the now cutting the hourly wages of their staff, but offering interests of the betting shops. That cannot go on. It them the chance to make up the loss if they can increase causes people to lose faith in local democracy, and we the profit from the machines? Is not that completely will stop it. Councillors must be allowed some discretion; unacceptable? they should not be expected simply to rubber-stamp such applications. Clive Efford: It is, and it flies in the face of the betting industry’s claims about how it trains its staff to deal Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I chaired the with problem gambling, because the industry is incentivising local licensing authority in the city of Hull when the them to encourage people to gamble more. Gambling Act 2005 was brought in, and we were absolutely frustrated in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes. Mr Burrowes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for keeping Will he take this opportunity to apologise to the House his promise. A briefing from the Salvation Army says for that legislation, which gave local councillors such as that after the Gambling Act 2005 came into force, the me no discretion at all? number of gambling addicts increased by more than 50% between 2007 and 2010—a rise of 115,000 people. Clive Efford: The legislation that brought in fixed What—or, more pertinently, who—is responsible for odds betting terminals actually predated the Gambling that? Act, but in that Act we limited the number of machines to four per shop. What is unprecedented is the fact that Clive Efford: We could have a debate about that the amount of money that can be taken from the question itself, because there are many forms of gambling machines is now greater than what can be taken from due to which people become addicts, especially given 367 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 368

[Clive Efford] Clive Efford: All the examples we are hearing, including that one, show the problem of clustering. the rise in online gambling, which has grown into a £2 billion industry over the past few years. It is therefore Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): At the difficult to extrapolate who is responsible. However, we risk of paraphrasing Mrs Merton, what first attracted should do the appropriate research into the impact of the multimillionaire Peter Coates, the chairman of bet365, FOBTs on problem gambling. to donate £400,000 to the Labour party, £100,000 of which was given in the 12 months after the passing of Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I understand the Gambling Act 2005? why Government Back Benchers want to deviate from Clive Efford: Bet365 is an online gambling company the subject, given that it is about deprivation and targeting and we are not dealing with that industry today. However, poorer communities. There are 136 such machines in I will just say that Mr Coates’s company is one of the my constituency, which is double the number in its few that has stayed in the UK, that employs people in prosperous neighbouring constituencies. This is the betting the UK and that pays taxes in the UK, which is more industry targeting the poor. than can be said for Lord Ashcroft. Clive Efford: I certainly think that the machines are Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): an example of Cameron’s Britain, where there is one When we introduced the legislation that resulted in rule for our constituents and another for the big businesses these machines, we were not aware, and could not have that run the betting shops. been aware, of these unintended consequences. Now that we are aware, we call on the Government, who have Mr Sheerman: My constituency of Huddersfield has the power to act, to do something about it. 28 bookies. In 2012, £102 million was bet and £3 million Clive Efford: I absolutely agree with my right hon. lost—that scourge just vacuums money out of our Friend. community. I actually do not agree with the motion; I think we should get rid of these iniquitous organisations. Several hon. Members rose—

Clive Efford: The motion addresses the concern expressed Clive Efford: Let me make a little bit of progress by my hon. Friend by calling for local councillors to before I give way again. make decisions about the economic activity that takes The Government have consistently said, “Problem, place in their town centres. what problem?” They might not be aware of the problem, but the people in our communities are and they want Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I action. There have been numerous complaints. People admire the shadow Minister’s guile in bringing the talk about the crime and antisocial behaviour associated debate before the House, but do not the facts speak for with betting shops, and about clustering and the detrimental themselves? In 2000, there were no FOBTs in the UK, impact on the character and diversity of our high but by the time his party left office, there were 30,000 of streets. In her report on our high streets, which was them. Would not the most dangerous gamble facing the commissioned by the Government in 2011, Mary Portas British public be if they were ever to consider voting says: Labour at the next general election? “The influx of betting shops, often in more deprived areas, is blighting our high streets.” Clive Efford: I will let the Conservatives in on The Government are aware of the concerns, yet they something—the world changes. Since 2000, a £2 billion have consistently refused to give local people powers to online gambling industry has emerged. The gambling stop new shops from opening in their communities. industry is evolving. When we passed the 2005 Act, we There is widespread support from local government for made it clear that these FOBTs in betting shops were on what we are calling for. In 2012, when the Local probation and that we would keep them under review. Government Association commissioned an opinion poll We are saying that the time has come to deal with the on people’s attitudes to planning and our high streets, it situation, but this Government are refusing to do so. found that more than two thirds—68%—of local people were against existing rules allowing betting shops to Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): I take over banks and building societies without planning agree with my hon. Friend that the Conservative party permission. seems not to be taking any responsibility for things that are happening under its watch. Let me add some further Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): My hon. Friend makes a evidence about deprivation—[Interruption.] powerful case. The Tote has its headquarters in my constituency. Is he aware that the people who feel most Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. strongly about this are the staff who work in betting The hon. Lady will be brief, but she must be heard. shops and see problem gambling? They are determined that there should be local powers to deal with the Lucy Powell: Forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker, problem. but I did think that the Conservatives were in government. Clive Efford: Absolutely, and the people who represent In my constituency, which is one of the most deprived staff in the betting industry have been vocal. There are in the country, £190 million was spent on these machines concerns not just about the single staffing of premises last year alone. That is more than the council spent on and the safety of staff, but about training. To be fair, services in my constituency, and in one ward alone, although the industry has come to the issue of training there are now 500 of these machines. What local councils a bit late, it has started to introduce it for its staff, but it need are more powers. must create an environment in which it can be effective. 369 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 370

Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the hon. The Conservative chairman of the LGA and the Tory Gentleman help me by explaining something? How Mayor for London are both calling for the Government would stopping new shops prevent addictive gambling to act. In fact, it is hard to find anyone who supports when we know that there are already so many shops out the Government’s view. Local people want more powers, there and when in the last three years of the Labour local government wants more powers and the two highest- Government, when it was known there was a problem, ranking Tories in local government want the Government they did not think that anything could be done about it? to act, too. Everyone seems to be in agreement except for the Government—well, except for certain parts of Clive Efford: I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. the Government. Gentleman, but I think that he has been lured by We have had another Liberal Democrat pledge. The briefings from his own side. This motion is about not Liberal Democrats have been at it again. One might problem gambling, but giving local authorities powers have thought that they would have learned their lesson to deal with the proliferation of betting shops in our over university tuition fees, but once the flashbulbs start high streets—for planning and economic regeneration popping they cannot hold themselves back. They have reasons, as well as because of concerns about the social been photographed saying “Ban the FOBTs” at the impact of fixed odds betting terminals. We are not Liberal Democrat conference. The Deputy Prime Minister, trying to suggest that passing the motion will solve the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the Minister for problem gambling in relation to FOBTs, and the Prime Crime Prevention, the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Minister was mistaken today when he answered the Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore), the Secretary Leader of the Opposition’s question on that matter. of State for Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), the Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): All the Minister for Schools, who is also a Minister of State in evidence that has been cited, especially by the shadow the Cabinet Office, and the hon. Member for Norwich Minister and Labour Members, has put paid to the South (Simon Wright) were all photographed backing Prime Minister’s suggestion that we need evidence. We anti-FOBT campaigners. need action, and we need it now. The Liberal Democrats also passed a motion at their conference in September. What did it call for? It said that local councillors should Clive Efford: I will come on to the evidence later in my speech, as what was said about that today really “be empowered to decide whether or not to give approval to needs to be clarified. additional gambling venues in their community” and called for There is widespread opposition to the Government’s position on this matter. Back in 2012, when the Local “Betting shops to be put in a separate planning use class”. Government Association published the conclusions of The motion was not from some fringe group but from its opinion poll, Sir Merrick Cockell, the chairman of the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip. the LGA and former Conservative leader of Kensington and Chelsea, said: Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I am strongly opposed “This opinion poll shows local people want government to give to FOBT machines in betting shops, but my opposition councils the powers to tackle unsightly clusters of sex shops, is governed by their impact on addiction and the complex bookies and takeaways that can blight so many of our high interactions of addiction. The shadow Minister said streets. People want action so the places they live, work and shop that that was not part of his motion. Is he motivated at can be revitalised to reflect how they want them to look and feel.” all by the addiction issue and, if he is, why did he not The Government talk about localism, but they do not include it in his motion? grant the powers even when they are asked to do so by their own colleagues. Clive Efford: I shall explain later my exact position on I assume that the Government have heard of a character stakes and prizes, which has not changed for two years. called Boris Johnson. He is the Mayor of London and I have consistently made my argument on stakes and his office issued a statement on the issue of betting prizes and I will give him a response when I come to shops, saying: that. “They have grown in number with an increased supply of premises such as vacant banks and pubs that do not require Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): The hon. planning permission to be used as a betting shop. Betting firms Gentleman talks about local government, but does he are attracted to busy high streets and town centres with a ready recognise that there are powers available through the supply of such premises. This has resulted in clustering in less use of article 4 directions, which both Barking and prosperous areas like Hackney, which has 64 betting shops in the Southwark council have chosen to use? I appreciate that borough, 8 in Mare Street alone, and Deptford”— they might be a bit cumbersome, but powers are available in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member now that councils can use. for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock)— “with seven betting shops on one street.” Clive Efford: If the hon. Lady will be patient, I will deal with article 4 directions. The would-be leader of the Conservatives supports our view. His statement goes on to say: I say to the Liberal Democrats that it is time to stop posing for photos and posturing with fine words in the “The Mayor proposes that betting shop operators wishing to open up a new outlet should be required to apply for planning motions at their conference. Lib Dem MPs are clearly permission for the chosen premises, which would allow proper confused, so let me make it clear to them: today, they consideration to be given to each proposal for a betting shop and are deciding whether to empower local authorities to its effect on individual centres.” take control of their high streets, as they said they 371 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 372

[Clive Efford] regeneration; it is about economic vitality and diversity in town centres; it is about the concern about the effect would at their conference, and to back their councillors, that the clustering of betting shops has on the character the members of their party and their Chief Whip, or to of town centres. I will deal with the research, and I will vote along with the gambling industry. They have made come on to it very soon if hon. Members are patient. their claims, so they should stand up for them today. I turn to the words of the Minister, who commented Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (Ind): Will on our choice of topic for the Opposition day debate. the hon. Gentleman explain how the motion allows She claimed that my position contradicted the need for local authorities to deal with the current situation in research. She said: which there are far too many of these shops? Why is the “Just a few weeks ago Clive Efford”— motion not about the odds and the stakes, because that that is me, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it is in the is the important issue? quote— “said that there was no evidence to support a change in the stake Clive Efford: I will come on to the issue of stakes and and prize levels for FOBTs, yet now he is trotting out a totally prizes, but it is complex and it will take a great deal of contradictory line, written for him by his political masters.” time to explain. The motion calls for extra licensing I know that the Minister has not been in the job for powers and a change in the law. I accept that it would be long, but she really ought to get a better grip of her difficult to introduce retrospective legislation to go back brief, because there is nothing in the motion about and take licences for those machines away from betting stakes and prizes. She should know that early last year, shops, but that is what is included in the motion. If that in response to the triennial review of stakes and prizes, I is what the hon. Gentleman is calling for, he can vote called for changes to be made to the software of these with us. machines, and all those changes are in the motion: longer periods between play; pop-ups to break play and Perhaps the most damning fact is the Government’s to remind people how long they have been playing; claim that councils have powers to stop the clustering of requiring people to load the machines over the counter betting shops. Again in her comments on today’s debate, to force interaction with staff, to give staff the opportunity the shadow Minister—[Interruption.] I am sorry, the to interact with customers who may be gambling too Minister—I am getting ahead of myself and am about much; and an end to single staffing. We have been 18 months too early—said: consistent on these issues, but we have had nothing “Councils already have planning powers to tackle the proliferation from the Government except some Lib Dems posing for of betting shops, as well as licensing powers to tackle individual photographs. premises causing problems and we have already acted to ensure the industry puts in place the types of player protection measures Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): that Labour are now, at long last, calling for.” On the question of addictive gambling, my hon. Friend If that is the case, why do councils such as Newham will know that I have raised the issue and with the help have to go to court to try to stop more betting shops of the Daily Record exposed the fact that an active opening in their area? Why are so many local councils gambler in my constituency is banned from every betting passing motions calling for more powers? shop within 10 miles, but can walk into any of those Sir Robin Wales, responding to the Minister’s comments shops and play those fixed odds betting terminals. yesterday, said: There is no one he talks to, no one vets him being there, and he gambles his wages away every week. “Current legislation leaves councils effectively powerless in their ability to tackle the clustering of betting outlets, which Clive Efford: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and causes immeasurable harm to local communities and the high technology should be used to protect people against street. The only planning power available to councils (an Article 4 direction) is unwieldy and slow, and some betting shops don’t problem gambling. That is something else that we have even require planning permission to open.” consistently raised. In 2004, Sir Merrick Cockell described article 4 directions Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) rose— as “unwieldy and bureaucratic”. The Local Government Association’s view of article 4 powers in the same year Clive Efford: How can I not give way to the hon. was equally negative: Gentleman, who has so much knowledge of the gambling industry? “Article 4 directions are costly and complex to use. Local authorities need to give notice of the restrictions coming into Philip Davies: I refer Members to my entry in Register effect for a year to avoid being at risk of paying compensation. of Members’ Financial Interests. May I ask the shadow This is an obvious disincentive to the widespread use of Article 4 Minister about his position on this issue, because he has directions by local planning authorities, which undermines the effectiveness of this measure. Article 4 directions can also only be always supported research by the Responsible Gambling used across a whole use class—meaning they cannot even be used Trust, on which his hon. Friend the Member for Bradford when a bank becomes a betting shop.” South (Mr Sutcliffe) serves, so I am sure that he has every confidence in it? He has always said that we should wait for research, so why does he support the Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Is my research but is not prepared to wait for it? Is that not a hon. Friend as surprised as I am that the Government ridiculous state of affairs? seem to object to this simple proposal, which would give local authorities more powers to decide whether to Clive Efford: I repeat: today’s motion is not about allow fixed odds betting terminals, which is something stakes and prizes. It is about empowering local authorities, that local authorities want? It is not a controversial which have called for powers to deal with a wide range proposal, so I am surprised that the Government object of issues that go beyond gambling. It is about economic to it. 373 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 374

Clive Efford: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The next autumn. As the Minister well knows, the report Conservatives claim to be the party of localism, but will come out six months away from a general election, they do nothing to encourage it. yet it will be inconclusive because the data are not robust enough to allow us to make informed decisions Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Will on FOBTs. my hon. Friend give way? Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Labour’s Clive Efford: If my hon. Friend does not mind, I will motion says that local authorities should have the power draw my remarks to a conclusion, because many Members to license the number of FOBTs in existing betting [Interruption.] wish to speak. I know that what I have shops. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that that would to say is upsetting for Government Members, but I am allow a local authority to increase the number per shop afraid that they will have to hear it all. on the high street today? The Minister will no doubt say in her response that that is all Labour’s fault. In fact, she has already said Clive Efford: No, because we would not allow the cap just that: to extend beyond four per shop. “Any concerns about fixed odds betting machines should be laid firmly at Labour’s door. In 2000, these machines did not Damian Collins: That is not what it says in the motion. exist—by the time of the last general election there were over 30,000.” Clive Efford: The motion says that local authorities FOBTs appeared in betting shops in 2001. In 2005 we would have to limit the number. We certainly would not limited them to four per shop. The Secretary of State at lift the cap. the time, my right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell), set out on Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): On the powers Second Reading of the Gambling Act 2005 that the that the shadow Minister is seeking for local authorities, impact of the machines would be reviewed, and my would he have those powers made retrospective so that hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) local authorities can remove planning permission for made it clear in 2009 that he would do just that. It is no existing betting shops? good going back to 2005, because the world has moved on. Online gambling has grown from nothing into a Clive Efford: No. We are saying that we would place £2 billion-a-year industry. The Government rejected betting shops in their own category so that local councils our proposals to regulate that, so we will take no lessons would have to receive a planning application if someone from them. wanted to open a new betting shop. Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I did call Today’s vote is not about stakes and prizes; it is about for FOBTs to be looked at again in 2009, but I also putting power back in the hands of local communities called for the industry to provide £5 million for the and the councillors who represent them. Taking decisions Responsible Gambling Trust, which looks at problem in the face of opposition from the betting industry will gambling. I hope that my hon. Friend admires the work be tough for local councillors, particularly when it being done by the trust, a charity that has five independent comes to removing existing machines. I happen to believe directors and five from the industry. passionately in local democracy; I spent 12 years as a locally elected councillor. I believe that well-informed Clive Efford: Absolutely. There are eminent people in local councillors are capable of making important decisions the Responsible Gambling Trust and I endorse what my that benefit their communities, and that, too often, we hon. Friend says, but I do have something to say about here in Westminster have tied the hands of locally the research. elected representatives. It is time to put local people The concerns about FOBTs and the impact that before the vested interests of the powerful betting industry. betting shops have on our communities are not just We should put our trust in local democracy. about gambling. We will wait for proper research, but the Minister needs to understand that saying that we Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Ihave will wait for the research and then doing nothing to to inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected the gather the information that we need to make informed amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. Before I decisions is just not good enough. After all, this Government call the Minister to move the amendment, it might be scrapped the gambling prevalence survey. Let me quote helpful for the House to know that I am obliged to put a again from her press release: limit of four minutes on the length of speeches by Back “This Government is undertaking the biggest ever study into Benchers because there is a very considerable demand the effect of these machines and have made clear that we will not for time to speak. hesitate to take action if the evidence points in that direction. To act without evidence is inappropriate and extraordinarily cynical, 4.48 pm even by Labour’s standards.” The Government are deluding themselves if they think The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, that all the answers will come from the current study. In Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): I beg to move, December, NatCen published a scoping report that That this House understands the public concerns around fixed states: odds betting terminals regulated by the Gambling Act 2005; “Across the category B estate in Great Britain, there is a great notes that the Government has made clear that it considers the deal of inconsistency in the level and type of data collected.” future of B2 regulation to be unresolved; welcomes the Government- backed research into the effect of fixed odds betting terminals on That will seriously undermine the ability of the Responsible problem gambling; believes that any development in the Government’s Gambling Trust to give us the information we need to policy on this matter should be evidence-led; calls upon the make informed decisions when the research is completed betting industry to provide the data required for a proper 375 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 376

[Mrs Helen Grant] and that some players have experienced considerable harm in using them. This Government therefore concluded understanding of the impact of fixed odds betting terminals; and that the future of these machines is unresolved, and we further notes that local authorities already have planning powers are undertaking urgent work to establish how they can to tackle localised problems and target specific areas where the be made safer, especially to those individuals who may cumulative impact of betting shops or other specific types of be at greatest risk. premises might be problematic, as well as licensing powers to tackle individual premises causing problems. I find it remarkable that we are all here having this Alex Cunningham: I agree with the Minister that we debate today. I remind the House that fixed-odds betting have learned a lot from the introduction of these terminals. terminals did not exist 17 years ago, but then the BBC Tees today highlighted the fact that a 17-year-old Labour Government came to power, liberalisation began, boy is already addicted to them. His is just one of many and the Gambling Act 2005 came about. By the time of lives that are being damaged, yet the betting industry the last general election more than 30,000 fixed-odds seems to think it is okay to have single-person staffing betting terminals were in existence. Yet we find ourselves without any support in its betting shops. Does that not debating what this Government should do about them— illustrate that it is putting profit before the interests of discussing, again, how we should clear up Labour’s the people it calls its customers? mess. That shows rank hypocrisy, total cynicism, and great opportunism. Mrs Grant: No, I do not accept that. The Gambling Yes, I do think these machines are concerning, but Commission, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware, has a the silence of Labour Members on this topic before requirement that under-age individuals are not allowed they ended up in opposition was quite deafening. They to gamble in licensed betting shops. Obviously, if the brought these machines into being, yet they have the rules and conditions are breached, the operator is at audacity to sit here with a motion that seeks to blame risk of losing their license. I will develop that argument this Government for any harm the machines might further and say a little more about staffing and security cause. numbers as I progress. The motion raises a wide range of issues, but fails Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I am completely to focus on the evidence and activity that is very clear that the mess was created by the previous well under way. In order to make appropriate decisions Government and I do not accept excuses about not about fixed odds betting terminals, we need better to knowing the likely consequences. However, we seem to understand how they are used and the real impact on have the solution in our hands in the form of the players. That is why the UK is conducting the largest Localism Act 2011. Would it not be possible to empower ever programmes of research into gaming machine our local communities, through their local elected usage. representatives, to use, for example, saturation as a The Opposition acknowledge—notwithstanding what reason for saying that they really cannot sustain any the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Eltham more? (Clive Efford), said in his opening speech—that there is insufficient evidence to support a reduction in stakes Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend makes a very good and and prizes. That is why we have focused our attention interesting point. As I progress, I will talk about the on improving the evidence base, so that we can determine powers that local authorities have, including article 4 whether a reduction in speed of play or a reduction in directions. maximum stake will make the machines safer.

Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) Mr Spencer: I was taught at an early age that the only (Lab): The hon. Lady accuses Labour of cynicism and thing anyone needs to know about the bookies is that opportunism, but cynicism and opportunism are the there are four windows to pay in and one window that besetting sins of politicians. What my constituents want pays out. Surely education is one of the solutions to this to know is: what are we as a House going to do about problem. Will the Minister assure the House that she the betting shop scourge? One of the main roads in will do all she can to make sure that the gaming industry Hackney—Mare street—has eight betting shops full of does what it can to educate its customers? these machines. Something must be done. Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Mrs Grant: I can see that the hon. Lady is concerned. I had the big five betting operators in to see me in If she bears with me, I will explain exactly what this December, and I can reassure him that they are very Government are doing. This is the Government who mindful of the role of player education within player have pushed for the research, who are doing the research protection, and that they want to progress and do more and who are actually pushing the industry to provide about it. the data we need to tackle problem gambling. Before I deal with the hon. Lady’s point, I want to tell the House what the Government are doing in a little more detail. Several hon. Members rose— This Government conducted a review last year of gaming machine stake and prize limits and looked very Mrs Grant: I will give way once I have made a little closely at the available evidence on fixed odds betting progress. terminals. In particular, our review looked at evidence It is crucial that interventions to make machines safer to support claims that these machines present an elevated are based on an understanding of what measures are risk of gambling-related harm. The review found that likely to be effective, rather than being simple, irrational there are real concerns about fixed odds betting terminals knee-jerk reactions. 377 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 378

Dame Joan Ruddock: I am extremely grateful to the Mrs Grant: I think that I have been pretty generous Minister for giving way. I am carefully following what so far. I want to make a little progress and then I will she is saying. Will she explain how—no matter how take more interventions. much care is exercised and what change might happen— On player protection, I have been consistently clear areas of real multiple deprivation, such as my constituency, that the onus is on the betting industry immediately to have so many betting shops with terminals, while wealthy develop and implement harm mitigation measures, and areas do not? There is an absolute contrast, and our to make data available for independent research. I met case is that the industry is targeting areas such as mine. the chief executives of the five largest UK bookmakers Does she deny that, or not? in December, and I challenged them to develop a plan by the end of January to link players with play in a way Mrs Grant: I hear what the hon. Lady says, but the that allows us better to understand player behaviour location of betting premises and shops is to do with and to assess the effectiveness of harm mitigation measures. footfall, not deprivation. It is simply a matter of supply That could include much more extensive use of card-based and demand. play on gaming machines to track player behaviour The Government are in no doubt that there is scope more systematically. I am not prepared, however, to for the industry to improve its ability to identify people delay taking action while we await research outcomes or who might be at risk and to intervene early to minimise industry plans to be developed. For that reason, I have harm. That is why we have demanded that the industry challenged the industry to press ahead with its social introduce better player protection measures. responsibility code and to implement precautionary player protection measures at the earliest possible Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Does the Minister opportunity. accept the point made so forcefully by Mary Portas that the prevalence of betting shops, particularly in deprived areas, has a very damaging effect on retail centres? Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Will the Minister confirm that the research will include player behaviour Mrs Grant: We have of course looked carefully at the analysis, which has been opposed by the industry? Portas review. We fed into the review, and the Government Indeed, it did not allow the university of Cambridge to response made the point that article 4 directions exist take that forward. Such analysis is crucial to an and can be used by local authorities, in addition to the understanding of how the machine and the player interact. local authority licensing conditions that were recently used very successfully by Newham. Mrs Grant: I can confirm that. The precautionary player protection measures include Andrew Percy: May I go back to the question asked the implementation by March 2014 of suspensions in by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford play when voluntary limits are reached, automatic alerts (Dame Joan Ruddock)? Is not the real reason that those when customers have been playing for 30 minutes or betting premises are in her constituency the legislation when a certain amount of money has been spent, enhanced for which she probably voted? Under the legislation, responsible gambling messaging, and a considerably when a local councillor faces an application for a premises improved and expanded system of voluntary self-exclusion, licence, the operator will already have received an operating which will make it much easier for players to exclude licence from the Gambling Commission. With its three themselves from multiple gambling premises. very strictly limited objectives, the legislation simply I do not accept the accusation that those measures does not allow local councillors in her constituency to are unsatisfactory because the code is not mandatory. I reject a premises licence application. have made it clear that if the industry does not make sufficient progress in implementing those measures or if Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend makes a very interesting it cannot demonstrate to me that they have been effective, point. the Government may act on a precautionary basis anyway.Additionally, the implementation of those measures Mr Stewart Jackson: I have a great deal of sympathy does not preclude further action at any point, should it with what the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) become necessary. said, but I think that the Labour party’s motion is cynical and opportunistic, given recent history. Does the Minister not think that the Government’s case would Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): A be much more compelling if they were prepared to major bookmaker in my constituency has just retired, observe the precautionary principle of looking at the so he is more honest than most. He tells me that this £100-a-spin game before the demonstrable empirical kind of gambling is like cocaine—it is totally and evidence is published in the autumn, particularly in absolutely addictive. There are examples of that. A man respect of the impact on vulnerable people? wins £13,000 in the morning, but he is allowed to play until 8 o’clock in the evening and he loses every penny Mrs Grant: I assure my hon. Friend that we will look that he has won. That is how addictive it is. This at everything: no stone will remain unturned. problem is polluting our high streets. Shops are disappearing and in their place, we are getting bookmakers. This is a Several hon. Members rose— ridiculous situation and a decision is needed sooner rather than later. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. The Minister has indicated that she is not giving way at Mrs Grant: That is why there is no green light for this stage. Hon. Members must allow her to continue fixed odds betting terminals. Their future is absolutely her speech and listen to her. unresolved, pending the research that we have started. 379 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 380

[Mrs Grant] Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): The Minister is arguing that there is a serious problem, and she keeps The Responsible Gambling Trust is carrying out research wagging her finger at Labour Members and saying it is to better understand how people behave when playing our fault. [Interruption.] Listen for a moment. She on gaming machines and what helps people to play seems to acknowledge that there is a serious problem, responsibly. It is the largest piece of academic research so will her Government legislate to address the problem that has ever been undertaken on the issue. It aims to before the next general election? understand patterns of gaming behaviour and to identify when there is robust evidence that consumers may be Mrs Grant: We believe in doing things properly. We experiencing problems. are waiting for the research and have put pressure on the industry to produce the data. Reports will be coming Philip Davies: Will the Minister confirm that the out imminently, and precautionary protections will be bookmakers have provided all the information that she put in place by the industry at the end of March. We has asked for? If that is not the case, will she set out will do whatever is needed to ensure that people are what information she would like from the bookmakers protected. Although planning is a matter for the that they have not provided her with? Department for Communities and Local Government, my officials are in regular discussion with colleagues Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend makes an important from that Department about betting shop clustering. point. We need the information from the bookmakers. That is one reason why I met the big five bookmakers in Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): Will the Minister December. They have indicated that they will provide give way? the data we need. To make sure that they do provide the data, a further meeting has been set up with them for Mrs Grant: No, I will not; I am going to make some 30 January. progress and I think I have been generous. Changes to the national planning system are not the answer to local I met the Responsible Gambling Trust in December problems. Local authorities already have a range of and pressed it to make progress with the research powers available regarding betting shops, and a local programme. I emphasised to it the importance of obtaining planning authority can consult and make an article 4 tangible research outcomes by the autumn of 2014. I direction that removes permitted development rights, am clear that the industry must rapidly share data to where it considers that necessary to protect local amenity allow the research aims to be met within the required or the well-being of an area. The London boroughs of timetable. Southwark and of Barking and Dagenham have brought forward article 4 directions, thus requiring a planning Mr Sutcliffe: I am pleased that the Minister has application for any new betting shops. That will enable acknowledged the work of the Responsible Gambling them to consider the application against their local Trust, which is made up of five independent members plan. The betting shop must also comply with its licensing and five members from the industry. Will she condemn conditions, and where those are breached, the local the attacks that have been made on the Responsible licensing authority has power to intervene, including Gambling Trust by the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, removing the licence to operate. which is rubbishing any work that comes from the trust? As we have heard, the motion before us calls for local communities to ban gaming machines in their areas. Mrs Grant: I will not get involved in such arguments, The Government agree that responsibility for managing but I will say that the Responsible Gambling Trust does high streets should rest with local areas, but the truth is good work and is a reputable organisation. I look that local authorities already have powers to control forward to receiving this important piece of work from gambling premises in their areas. Local authorities have it later this year. power to reject an application for a gambling premises licence, or to grant one with additional conditions Dr Thérèse Coffey: In December, the public health should that be necessary. They have power to review survey looked at this issue for the first time. It stated: licences after they have been granted, and to impose “Among both men and women, there was no difference in licence conditions after review. Many local authorities gambling prevalence by area deprivation, once age was accounted have already used those powers to good effect. For for.” example, in November 2013, the London borough of That was true except among people in the most deprived Newham—which has been mentioned this afternoon— quintile of the index of multiple deprivation, who were imposed conditions on a betting shop because of its more likely to participate in bingo. There is further concerns about crime, disorder and under-age gambling. analysis relating to FOBTs and quintile four. However, The conditions stipulate that a minimum of two members the most recent data that we have show that, in essence, of staff must be on duty throughout the day. Additionally, there is no difference by area. the betting shop must carry out an undercover, under-age test purchase to ensure that minors are not gambling, Mrs Grant: That is an interesting and important and it must send the results to the council and the point, and I believe that that piece of work also indicated police. that levels of problem gambling had fallen from just The Government believe it is right for the industry, in below 1% to just below 0.5%. Notwithstanding the drop conjunction with local authorities, to agree on the in the number of problem gamblers, the Government appropriate level of staffing in betting shops, depending are concerned about any level of problem gambling and on the circumstances of the local area. Local authorities will, of course, urge the industry—as we are doing—to already have powers to ensure a minimum level of make real and proper progress on that matter. staffing where appropriate. The Government urge local 381 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 382 authorities to fully utilise powers at their disposal to To gauge public opinion when there was an application limit the number of betting shops in line with local for two more Paddy Power branches last year, I held a demand, and to apply appropriate licensing conditions drop-in surgery at a local community centre in my where they have cause to tackle issues of problem gambling constituency. One person who came in was a former in local communities. Adopting the motion would lead Paddy Power manager. He said that he had seen a large to a patchwork of regulation right across the country number of families destroyed and businesses ruined, as where it is okay for gaming machines to be located in well as students who gambled away their student loans. some areas but not in others. I do not believe that that is He told me that by spending a day in a Paddy Power the right way forward. The industry must instead introduce shop, one would meet half a dozen people whose lives better targeted and more effective player protection for had been destroyed by their addiction. users of gaming machines in all locations. Last year, when Newham council refused a licence for Player protection is at the heart of the Government’s two new Paddy Power branches, the organisation appealed. approach to fixed odds betting terminals. I have made it Impressed by the phalanx of sharp lawyers—and, I clear to the industry that it must urgently develop have to say, sold-out former police officers—who appeared, targeted player protection measures for those players the judge duly nodded the appeal through. The truth is who are at greatest risk. I do not believe that the motion that existing planning and licensing powers are hopelessly can achieve such an outcome. However, I do not rule inadequate, as my hon. Friend said, and need to be out any action that may be necessary to make machines strengthened in the way laid out in the motion. The safer. I am clear that if the betting industry fails to claim in the Government’s amendment that local authorities deliver on its commitment to implement enhanced player already have enough powers is simply not the case. protection measures by March 2014, does not share data for independent research, and if the balance of the Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) evidence suggests precautionary action on stakes and (Lab): My right hon. Friend is making an excellent prizes or other measures are required, the Government speech. Bellshill’s small main street has seven of these will not hesitate to act. premises. The local council, North Lanarkshire, supported by Bellshill community council, turned one application 5.11 pm down, only for the Scottish Government to use their Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): If one crosses powers to overrule it, so how can it be said that local Barking road from East Ham town hall to go into East authorities have these powers? Ham High street north, there is a Paddy Power on the corner at 387 Barking road, a Betfred just around the Stephen Timms: My right hon. Friend is absolutely corner at No. 6, and two more Paddy Powers at 20 High right. Government planning inspectors in England routinely street north and directly opposite at No. 11. At No. 56 is overturn refusals, so the powers are inadequate. We a Jenningsbet and, set back in Clements road directly have 87 of these shops in my borough. I think that there opposite No. 45, there is a Coral. In the short walk were nine new ones in 2011 and a similar number in along the high street to East Ham station, there are two 2012, which shows the scale of the problem. To underline more Betfreds, another Paddy Power, a Ladbrokes and the point, in the Paddy Power case in Newham, the a William Hill, which was the subject of the licensing judge awarded costs against the council to punish it and committee meeting in November to which the Minister warn others against thinking of challenging this growth. referred. On the other side of the station, there are two The council was using the powers mentioned in the more Paddy Powers and a Ladbrokes. Government’s amendment, so those powers are clearly I think that represents a concentration. It is certainly inadequate. related to the economic character of the area and not I was grateful to the Minister for acknowledging my simply a question of footfall. All those shops open at point about Mary Portas’s review. I think she said that 7.30 or 8 in the morning. They stay open until 10 o’clock she agreed with Mary Portas, so why are the Government at night seven days a week, and one of them has just not going to act? One of the people who came to my asked for permission to stay open till 11pm. I would be constituency drop-in was the owner of commercial very grateful if the Minister would tell us whether the properties on East Ham high street. Frankly, he has a measures she is discussing with the industry will be guilty conscience about letting his properties to betting taken up by organisations such as Paddy Power and shops, but he made the point that betting chains paid Betfred, which account for such a large number of the more than anyone else to occupy the units. They are recently opened shops in our area. very attractive tenants and, by extracting huge sums from people who cannot afford it, they are making Andrew Gwynne: It seemed that the Minister was not money hand over fist. The law needs to change urgently aware that the Local Government Association said that to deal with the problem. article 4 directives were not sufficient to prevent the proliferation of betting shops on the high street. Is that As the Minister said, there has recently been modest not precisely why we need to reclassify betting shops success in East Ham. The William Hill opposite East out of the A2 classification so that situations such as Ham station has been a magnet for drunken antisocial the one on my right hon. Friend’s high street are not behaviour for a long time. After it allowed a 15-year-old able to continue? to use its machines, an application was made to revoke its licence. There was the usual phalanx of lawyers and Stephen Timms: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. former police officers, but the upshot was that the That is clearly the view of Conservative local authorities council committee required the company to make some and, as we have heard, of the Mayor of London. I think improvements. Among other things—I am pleased that it would also be the view across the House, were it to be this point has been picked up in the motion moved by tested. my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford)—the 383 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 384

[Stephen Timms] Philip Davies: Does my hon. Friend agree that while it is all very well restricting stakes and prizes in betting bookmaker was required to have at least two members shops, there is nothing to stop the people involved from of staff present whenever it was open, instead of the going back home where they can play exactly the same usual one. As far as I can tell, however, there is only ever games on the internet with unlimited stakes and unlimited one member of staff in the other betting shops on the prizes? high street. I understand that this is the first time such a condition has been applied and accepted by a bookmaker, Mr Whittingdale: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; and I hope that our motion suggests that that will be a I was going to come on to that point. precedent for elsewhere. The latest statistics in the English health survey show Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Is my right that something like 0.5% of the population might be hon. Friend concerned, as I am, that many of these suffering from problem gambling, which represents a employees do not have much training in dealing with drop from the previous figure in the gambling prevalence problem gamblers? Despite what the industry says, many study. staff are given a job and then start work straightaway. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): Will the hon. Stephen Timms: My hon. Friend is right. In any case, Gentleman give way? these members of staff are one person on their own in one of these shops, many of which are quite big. They Mr Whittingdale: I am sorry, but I have very little are sitting behind a glass screen, so what are they time, so I shall have to continue. supposed to do if there is someone with a problem in the shop? There are often fights outside. Interestingly, Although that figure might have fallen and although Community, on behalf of its members working in betting only a small number of people are involved, I accept of shops, has supported our very good motion, and I hope course that those people still need protection, which that the House will agree to it. was why the Select Committee looked at various technologies that might help to address the problem. 5.18 pm We looked at self-exclusion, taking periods of rest between playing machines and mandatory pre-commitment. We Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I welcome should consider such measures, but before taking any the debate as an opportunity to bring some light to the action, it is important that we act on the evidence. That subject, rather than the large amount of smoke that has was why we recommended that more research should be obscured it so far, but that might be a statement of conducted so that we could establish whether B2 machines hope, rather than experience. presented any greater risk of attracting problem gamblers It is important to bring some perspective to the than other types of machine. As my hon. Friend the debate. Gambling is a legitimate activity that brings Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) pointed out, the considerable pleasure to millions of people in this country, strongest growth in gambling is taking place online, but that generates a lot of economic activity and that provides there are far fewer controls online for people who have a employment and tax revenue for the Government. Betting problem. It is much more difficult to verify someone’s shops are not a blight on the high street; they are age online and for someone to self-exclude. regulated and controlled environments that provide employment and, in some cases, a social benefit. Graham Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman says that gambling raises revenue for Mr Whittingdale: I am sorry, but there are strict time the Government, but in actual fact the Government limits on speeches, so I want to press on. I have explained receive about £3 billion a year in revenue and the profit why I believe that we need much more research. on fixed odds betting terminals is about £1.5 billion. It The issue of clustering has been raised, too, and it costs the state £3.6 billion to deal with problem gamblers, was also recognised by the Select Committee. We so does not that suggest that this is bad economics? recommended, although this was widely misinterpreted, that there should be some flexibility for local authorities Mr Whittingdale: I shall come on to problem gambling, so that if it could be shown that a large number of but it is a myth to suggest that that is entirely a result of betting shops had opened to get around the limit of FOBTs. There is a difficulty due to problem gambling, four machines in a shop, one solution might be to allow and a small number of people suffer from addiction—of local authorities to permit more machines in individual course they need some protection. It has always been a betting shops precisely to stop more shops from opening. principle that the harder forms of gambling are permitted We suggested that such flexibility should be applied in in more controlled environments. To that extent, it was an upward rather than a downward direction. something of an anomaly that the previous Government allowed B2 machines on the high street while there were I support localism, but the problem with the Opposition’s restrictions on those machines in adult gaming centres motion is that, as the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive and casinos. It was ironic, too, that the previous Government Efford) confirmed, the proposal would not be retrospective. wanted to introduce category A gaming machines, for It would apply only to new shops, so he would not seek which there were no limits on stakes or prizes, in super- to close existing betting shops on the high street. casinos. Perhaps those anomalies should have been addressed. That was why, when the Culture, Media and Clive Efford rose— Sport Committee looked at the problem, we recommended allowing up to 20 B2 machines in casinos and some B2 Mr Whittingdale: I am happy to give way if the hon. machines in adult gaming centres. Gentleman wishes to clarify his position. 385 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 386

Clive Efford: The licensing powers relating to the fundraising and commissioning to be run by separate machines could be retrospective. The number of machines bodies so that a conflict of interest could be avoided. per shop could be reduced. Otherwise the industry, as the sole funder, might have influence over what research was commissioned. Mr Whittingdale: But the hon. Gentleman is not proposing to revoke the existing permissions for shops Mr Sutcliffe: As my hon. Friend says, at that time it that are currently on the high street, so what he suggests was difficult to bring together various bodies to fund would not be likely to make any great difference. It research, education and treatment for problem gamblers. would act as an anti-competitive measure that would The NHS does not fund such programmes, and the benefit the people currently operating on the high street Responsible Gambling Trust provided the best possible and prevent new entrants from coming into the market. deal at the time. What I find regrettable is that the Generally, that would be detrimental to consumers. Campaign for Fairer Gambling should attack the integrity of that individual body of research on gambling, and I The Select Committee’s overall conclusion was that hope that my hon. Friend will not do the same now. before we take action in this area, we need much more research. The hon. Member for Bradford South Mr Watson: I am going to attack the arrangements, (Mr Sutcliffe), who is a member of the Responsible although I am not decrying my hon. Friend. One can Gambling Trust, pointed out that a thorough study is choose whether to work within the system to improve under way, with a report due in the near future. The things or to try to influence them from outside, and we Opposition’s motion pre-empts the work that the trust have taken a different path in that regard, but I am sure is doing and draws conclusions before we have even that our policy goals are the same. seen the results of its research. That is completely the wrong way round, and it is for that reason, in line with Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): My what the Select Committee recommended, that I shall hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Does he agree support the Government’s amendment and not the that much of the anecdotal and experiential evidence is Opposition’s motion. very clear, and that it is really a question of whether the Government are prepared to take on vested interests? 5.25 pm Time and again, when that question is put to them, their answer is no, they are not. Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Deputy Speaker, and a Mr Watson: I do think that there is a timidity when it happy new year to you. comes to the big gambling lobby. In my view, it is hard I was extremely heartened to hear the Prime Minister not to conclude that the complex relationships that I express concern about the prevalence of fixed odds have described constitute an attempt to hide the influence betting terminals from the Dispatch Box for the second of the industry on public policy. Whatever the outcome time earlier today, because the issue is of concern to of today’s debate and whatever action we take on Members on both sides of the House. This is a new FOBTs in the future, the current arrangements for the technology linked to high-stake gambling. It seems to commissioning of research require decisive modernisation. me that there is a clear remedy, namely to banish the The Responsible Gambling Strategy Board was set machines from the high street, or else to reduce the up to recommend strategic objectives to the commissioning stakes significantly from £100 to £2, which would in body, which at the time was the Responsible Gambling effect turn them into the old-style arcade fruit machines Fund. A body called the Gambling Research Education that we probably all remember from childhood. However, and Treatment Foundation, popularly known as GREaT, that approach has not yet found favour, and I think that took over fundraising. It was headed by Neil Goulden, the next best solution is offered by the Opposition’s who was the chief executive officer of Coral and is now motion. the chair of the Association of British Bookmakers. I have time to focus on only one issue, namely how we Subsequently, trustees from the Responsible Gambling commission, fund and respond to research in the context Fund resigned as they felt the fundraising body had too of public policy. I want to caution the Minister: I think much influence over what research was to be commissioned. it is a little foolhardy to set so much store by the So that is a concern, and I think it is one we should all findings of a report that is the outcome of a complex set address. of arrangements that make it hard for allegations of Mr Sutcliffe rose— too much influence from vested interests to be overcome. The problem for the Government and the House is Mr Watson: I am sorry, but I cannot take another this. We are awaiting the findings of a study that is intervention as I am running out of time. intended to establish what harm is being caused to There is also a revolving-door policy with some of individual players. Those findings are due to be published the regulators. There is a guy called Andrew Lyman later this year by the Responsible Gambling Trust, who now works for William Hill and is a rather truculent which is funded by a voluntary levy on the gambling tweeter. He used to work for the commission when it industry and chaired by a former industry executive. stressed the importance of separating fundraising from The gambling industry should not be seen to have commissioning and research, and now he works for influence over a body that is, in effect, conducting William Hill lobbying against that. So I think there is an research on itself. inherent conflict of interest in the system that we have In 2008, the Gambling Commission recommended a put in place and I hope that when the Minister responds tripartite structure for research, education and treatment. to this discussion, she will be able to answer this question: The commission argued that if those programmes were how can the House have confidence in a report when we to be funded voluntarily, it was essential for strategy, cannot be confident that it is truly independent? 387 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 388

5.31 pm streets owing to lower rents because of the recession largely caused by the Labour party, and they will probably Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I once again refer move back on to the side streets when the economy people to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial recovers and rents on the high street go back up. Interests. Anyway, where are the legions of retailers wanting to In the limited time available I want to just dispel some open up on the high street in place of bookmakers? It is myths, but I shall start by saying it is always a pleasure not a decision between having Next on the high street or to follow the hon. Member for West Bromwich East William Hill or having M&S on the high street or Paddy (Mr Watson), my former sparring partner on the Select Power. It is a choice between having Ladbrokes on the Committee. However, I should point out that at the high street or a boarded-up shop. time the Committee carried out its report into gambling, the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Committee but I do not think he turned up to any of the sessions. Graham Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Perhaps if he was so concerned about this issue he might have turned up and listened to some of the Philip Davies: I cannot give way again as I have taken evidence because he might have learned something as a the two interventions allowed. result. People ask for a demand test and there is a demand test: it is called a customer demand test, which is the Mr Watson: I apologise for not turning up. There was ultimate demand test. another vested interest that I had a personal interest in The second myth is that bookmakers target poorer at the time, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but when areas. There are two bookmakers per square mile in the that debate was going on I thought to myself that not most deprived areas. That compares with nine pubs and even the hon. Gentleman would be dumb enough to ask 11 takeaways. If the Opposition are saying that bookmakers for more FOBTs in bookies rather than fewer. I was are targeting the poorest people in society, what do they wrong. have to say about pubs and takeaways targeting those people? Do we hear anything about that? We do not, Philip Davies: If the hon. Gentleman had actually because this is not about the poorest in society being turned up, he would have known the report was targeted; it is about people who are anti-gambling and unanimously supported by all members including members anti-bookmaker. Bookmakers are not targeting poorer of the Labour party. areas. This is about middle-class people being patronising The first myth I want to dispel is that there has been towards working-class people by telling them that they an explosion in the number of betting offices and know best how they should spend their money. machines. The number of betting offices has actually The third myth is that the machines are used by the declined from a peak of 14,750 in the mid-1970s to poorest people. Again, that is untrue. The health survey around 8,700 today and that figure has been virtually published in recent months shows that gambling prevalence the same for the last 10 years. FOBTs—B2 machines—are was highest in the top quintiles of household income, also in decline: according to the Gambling Commission with 6% of people in the highest income quintile playing 4% of adults played them in 2010 and the figure dropped FOBTs, compared with 4% in the lowest quintile. The to 3.4% in 2011-12 and, in 2013, all bookmakers reported hon. Member for West Bromwich East said that he did a decline in the gross win from FOBTs. not want surveys to be linked to the gambling industry, Even in areas considered to have huge numbers of but this is the health survey, which has nothing to do bookmakers—for example Hackney—they make up about with the gambling industry. That survey makes it clear 2.7% of all retail units. Let us take Greenwich as an that richer people are much more likely than poorer example of what has happened. The number of bookmakers people to play FOBTs. has gone up in Greenwich by 8% at the same time as the Only two gambling activities in that health survey population in Greenwich has increased by 13%. Of were engaged in more by poorer people than by richer course bookmakers are often in densely populated areas people. They were scratch cards and bingo. Poorer and some of them happen to be poorer areas, too, but people spend more on scratch cards and bingo than do the relevant fact is that they are in densely populated the richest people. What are the Opposition saying areas not poorer areas. about scratch cards and bingo? Nothing, because they do not think that it would be popular to say anything Stephen Timms: There are 12 bookmakers in the about them. This is just a case of crocodile tears. short stretch of East Ham high street between East Ham town hall and East Ham station. There has never Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): Will the hon. been anything like such a large number in that small Gentleman give way? area before. Something dramatic has changed and it needs to be fixed. Philip Davies: I would love to give way to the hon. Gentleman, who is a very good man on these issues, but Philip Davies: The right hon. Gentleman says that, I am afraid that time does not allow me to do so. but many of his constituents work in them, of course, The fourth myth is that the amount of problem and many of his constituents enjoy going into them. If gambling is going up. The health survey shows that, they did not enjoy going into them, they would not be according to the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of open. Mental Disorders”, 0.8% of men and 0.2% of women It is true that more bookmakers have moved on to the were identified as problem gamblers in 2012. That is high street in recent years, but their overall number has down from 0.9% in the previous prevalence study. So not gone up; instead they have moved from the side problem gambling is going down, not up. If B2s and 389 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 390

FOBTs were the cause of such problem gambling, it just to pass enabling legislation to make limits even would presumably have gone through the roof in recent higher. FOBTs allow almost unlimited winnings, as well years, but it has actually gone down. as huge losses. Given the technology that the multibillion- We often hear FOBTs being described as the “crack pound gambling industry is using in this day and age, it cocaine of gambling”, but by whom? No one impartial beggars belief that it cannot collate the information describes them in that way. The first recorded instance that will allow the Government to make informed decisions is Donald Trump describing video keno games in New about what the limits should be, and about how machines Jersey as the “crack cocaine of gambling”, because he should operate, where they should operate and at what feared that they would keep people out of his casinos. times of the day. If anything, I believe that there is a This is a ridiculous debate on a ridiculous premise, and deliberate attempt by the industry to cover up what is I cannot possibly support the Opposition motion today. happening. The impact assessment does not give us a true overall picture of the situation. 5.37 pm Communities are becoming poorer. We have heard from the Government about an increase in employment, Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): Many of us but there has been a large increase in part-time employment, on both sides of the House who represent poor and and low pay is the problem it always was. Poor people working-class constituents can see the effect that these are being drawn in initially to try to make money for machines are having on lives and families, and their essentials, rather than just coming along for amusement, impact on our inner towns and cities, especially where a and are then getting drawn into habitual gambling, proliferation of betting shops provides an opportunity which we are all seeing on our high streets. People know to play the machines, or where category B1 and B2 what is happening with high-stake, fixed-odds machines. machines are to be found in clubs. Any Labour Members The Government know what is happening, but they who attend trade union and labour clubs, and any have deliberately chosen not to take action and to kick Government Members who attend political and sports this into the long grass. They are in fact helping the clubs, will regularly see people pouring hundreds of industry by increasing the limits in the way they have. pounds into these machines, while often getting very We know what is happening with Wonga and payday little back. loans. We know what austerity is doing to poor and unemployed people, and people on low incomes. People Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does my are trying to get money from any source, and gambling hon. Friend agree that, contrary to what the hon. Member seems like a quick fix, and it is much more prevalent for Shipley (Philip Davies) has just said, it cannot be a than it used to be. I have seen in my own town of coincidence that bookies in the top 50 unemployment Preston a huge increase in the number of betting shops black spots profited from FOBTs to the tune of £173 million and bookies. Payday loan businesses are taking over last year, while those in the 50 lowest unemployment premises that were once shops, and reputable companies areas made a profit of only £44 million? Does not that and businesses as well. illustrate my hon. Friend’s point? Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): My hon. Friend Mark Hendrick: It does, and I commend my hon. has talked about the accumulation of data, and the Friend for his comment. These machines disproportionately Government say that they wish to look at the data affect those who live in poorer, working-class areas. before they make any judgment. He identified the fact The problem of the B1 and B2 machines is highly that the data we are seeing every day with our own eyes pervasive. If someone in a club is drinking too much is telling us the truth, which is that these things are and clearly has an addiction or a drinking problem, increasing day upon day on our high streets. they are often asked to leave. If they become a Mark Hendrick: My hon. Friend is right, and it does problem customer, they are shown the door. However, not take a genius to see what is going on; we are all problem gamblers pouring money into machines are seeing it every day on our own streets with our own not warned that their gambling is excessive. In fact, they eyes. Poor and unemployed people, who have been hit are encouraged by the fact that the machines are placed by austerity measures, are being drawn to the clubs and next to the bar, so that any change put across the bar is bookies to use these machines on a scale that has never put into the machine as quickly as possible. Additionally, been seen before. The current limit of four FOBTs a person may be drinking at the bar, and a machine next should remain the limit, and local authorities should be to the bar offers a comfortable place to park a drink given the powers outlined in our motion, which I ask while using the machine. The companies that provide hon. Members to support. gaming machines to clubs, pubs and bookmakers use all sorts of techniques to maximise profits from the 5.43 pm machines. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a The Gambling Commission does not license pubs, great pleasure to contribute to this debate. I served on clubs, working men’s clubs or family entertainment the Select Committee when it investigated this issue centres operating under a local authority permit. The between 2011 and 2012. It was a useful inquiry to Government claim that the commission does not collect undertake several years after the Gambling Act 2005, data for those businesses. That is their explanation for because although, as has been said, there is a lot of not having sufficient data to deal with an obvious anecdotal evidence, one role of Select Committees and problem. The fact that data on those businesses is not of legislators is to step back and ensure that we are collected does not necessarily mean that the Government looking at the real data, as opposed to other people’s cannot publish a report or carry out an inquiry to get interpretations of them. such information. If society has a problem with gambling, Let us have a bit of a history lesson. FOBTs appeared it is the Government’s job to get to the bottom of it, not in high street bookmakers’ shops in the early 2000s, 391 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 392

[Dr Thérèse Coffey] represents a deviation from the tendency to focus on specific games, such as fruit/slot machines as central to gambling-related and, after a code of conduct was agreed with the problems.” industry restrictions were put in place: the game type We should be looking instead at global behaviour was restricted to only roulette; a cap was put in place on characteristics. That is the research that was referred to the stakes and prices; a minimum time interval between by the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, but it does not bets was introduced; and a limit was put in place on the support its own particular view. number of machines per shop. That was a useful There are different surveys on whether poor people compromise, but the whole point of reviewing legislation are being targeted, including from Public Health England. is to see whether there have been any unintended Table 3.9 of the British Gambling Prevalence Survey consequences. One of the most obvious unintended 2010 specifically sets out the participation in gambling consequences has been mentioned by many hon. Members: activities in the past year in relation to FOBTs by the as the machines are popular and there is a demand for index of multiple deprivation and shows that there is no them, what we have been seeing in high streets in particular difference between the classes. Scotland has different parts of the country is that more and more the highest prevalence of FOBT use in the country as a betting shops are appearing. That may be partly due to whole. the fact that premises are readily available. There have I do not deny that there are individual cases. We been mergers of various banks and building societies, know that there are problem gamblers—the latest estimate which are in the same planning class as betting shops. suggests between 300,000 and 400,000, and those individual Ultimately, those shops would not open if people did cases will be absolute tragedies. We may have heard not want to use them. them on the radio or met them in our surgeries. They may have bet the family silver. Families are torn apart Graham Jones: Is the hon. Lady as disappointed as I by the problem, but this is no different from what am that the Government have not mentioned the survey happens when people are driven to similar distraction that 2CV did in Newham, which is a reputable data by other addictions, such as to alcohol or drugs. gathering company? She talked about how folk go into I respect the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), these premises and are addicted to these machines. The but he says that all he is talking about is a few more survey, which questioned 500 customers as they left powers. The basis of our English law is that we can do betting premises, revealed that 62% admitted to spending what we want unless the Government and the law every last penny in their pockets and leaving the shop intervene to restrict us, and we see that with crime, only when all their money had been spent. planning and so on. We must be careful when we stop legitimate gambling on the basis of anecdotal research. Dr Coffey: I think I have seen that survey. It was It is a bit like the many campaigns that we receive. We commissioned by the Campaign for Fairer Gambling. I tend to hear from less than 1% of our constituents, and do not deny that that was the outcome. Professor Orford, we cannot assume that everybody thinks the same. who is known to be anti-gambling, gave evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee that we are the Hugh Bayley rose— most studied country in the world, with three public prevalence surveys since 2000 and even more public Dr Coffey: I am sorry but I only have 45 seconds left. health research. Despite that, our Committee was not We need to think carefully about any changes that we able to substantiate the fact that gambling addiction is propose. I supported the Select Committee’s report and driven by fixed odds betting terminals. we need to take a measured approach. We need to continue to work to try to tackle the problems of Philip Davies: Is my hon. Friend aware that about 160 problem gamblers, but that does not mean that we illegal machines were confiscated in the south-east last should throw away the freedoms people rightly enjoy to year? Does she agree that if FOBTs were banned, as the gamble, whether that is on our high streets or elsewhere. Opposition want, it would drive the gambling underground I cannot support the Opposition motion. The and even more of these machines would be played Government’s amendment provides a reasoned approach illegally? to ensuring that we continue to tackle the problem and I will therefore support the Government. Dr Coffey: I agree with my hon. Friend. I recognise that if we displace an activity in a controlled environment 5.50 pm there is the risk of creating an uncontrolled environment. Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): We should also consider some of the briefing we have The key issue at the heart of the debate is localism—the been given. The Gambling Commission says we cannot ability of local authorities to act in the interests of use the gambling prevalence survey results specifically the people they represent. I was most surprised when to identify the causation of problem gambling. Some of the Minister referred to localism as an unacceptable the research, which alluded to secondary data research, patchwork, as that is an unacceptable approach to take said: when considering local authorities and their responsibilities. “Virtual gaming machines had the strongest association with The debate is not about gambling in general but gambling-related problems, but few people endorsed that they about specific and growing concerns about fixed odd had played these games during the past 12 months. These findings betting terminals in betting shops. Every 20 seconds, suggest that popular perceptions of risk associated with specific types of gambling for the development of gambling-related problems £100 can be gambled, often with disastrous results for might misrepresent actual risk…The range of gambling involvement individuals. Research has shown that the people using frequently is a better predictor of disordered gambling status those facilities particularly include young unemployed than type of gambling. This finding is important because it men. 393 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 394

Mr Whittingdale: Has the hon. Lady ever played a authorities to take the action they consider necessary in fixed odds betting terminal? They have one of the highest the interests of the people they represent. It does not rates of return of any gambling machine and it is virtually preclude other decisions being made when further research impossible to lose hundreds of pounds as the majority has been carried out, and I urge the Government to of the money one puts in comes back out again. support the motion.

Mrs Ellman: I am concerned about the negative aspects 5.54 pm of the activity, and I refer the hon. Gentleman to some of the information contained in the report of Landman Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Just before Economics, which I have quoted. Christmas, I was one of only four Government Members to vote against the Government in a deferred Division There is certainly a link between the growth of such on this issue. Unfortunately, although I have great sympathy facilities and areas of deprivation. In Liverpool, Riverside, with many of the points made by the shadow Minister, which I represent, there are now 189 such terminals—one the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), I cannot of the highest levels in the country—and it is a very support the Labour motion. I will not rehearse the deprived area. That deprivation has been recognised by reasons for that, but the motion is cynical, opportunistic and has caused deep concern to the local authority, and, not least, confused. The Leader of the Opposition Liverpool city council, which is why it raised the issue launched a campaign in the summer about stakes and last November and called for increased powers to enable problem gambling. It was about the generic issue—it it to deal with this specific concern. was not just about use class orders and planning, which It is often local authorities that recognise the cumulative is what the hon. Member for Eltham is telling the effects of such facilities, and the impact on local House today. I have been partly reassured by the Minister’s communities and individuals. The city council has cited approach. in its debates many cases of people who have turned to loan sharks in desperation, having got into debt because Mr Burrowes: I have been similarly reassured by the of these facilities, and the problems that they have Minister’s response. My hon. Friend shares my concern—I experienced. Indeed, the Landman Economics report am sure he will discuss clustering in Peterborough, provides evidence of the economic impact on local which is similar to the clustering of betting shops in communities. In fact, there is information that suggests Green Lanes in my constituency—that there should be that an increase in spending of £1 billion on such greater local powers. My local area wants to set up a terminals rather than other services can lose the equivalent neighbourhood plan that involves the high street. Does of 13,000 UK jobs. There is concern about the development he think that in the review and the response the promise of such facilities, about the fact that they are uncontrolled to leave no stone unturned should include greater powers in areas of deprivation, and about the impact on individuals in relation to planning and licensing? and local communities, and it is important that local authorities are given the necessary powers to deal with Mr Jackson: Absolutely. That is an integral part of the issue. any remedial powers that the Government take to deal Government Members seem to have said a number of with the serious and legitimate concerns of many of different things about local authority powers. Some my constituents. There are 22 betting shops in central have suggested that local government has sufficient Peterborough, with 81 FOBTs generating about powers, others have said that such powers are perhaps £3.2 million. I am disappointed, because this could have difficult to find and others have cited examples of where been a genuine cross-party debate on information and such powers have been found to be failing or simply do research provided by bodies such as the Methodist not exist. The key point is that local authorities should Church, which has not always supported my party, and be able to deal with the issues they consider to be the Salvation Army. I declare an interest as a member of important to their areas. That does not mean that they the good neighbours board of the Peterborough citadel should be forced to take a particular course of action, of the Salvation Army. but they should be enabled to do so when they feel that Unfortunately, from the Labour party’s point of it is necessary. view, the debate has been rather confused. Undoubtedly, The proposal is not about gambling in general and there is a problem. The precautionary principle is certainly would not deal with the significant growth of not that there should be unambiguous, completely online gambling. This is about another very specific definable evidence of a causal link between critical issue, as it is extremely important that local government problem gambling and FOBTs. It is about the risk of is given the powers it requests to react to problems. problem gambling. One of my worries, which has been partly ameliorated today, is about the precautionary principle on the maximum stake. I was concerned that Graham Jones: My hon. Friend is making powerful the research on the impact of those £100- spin games on points about the contradictions in the points made by the most vulnerable people in our constituencies should Government Members about localism and nationalism be undertaken by independent individuals. The hon. and about addiction. In the 2CV survey of 500 punters Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) has defended in Newham, 87% said that these machines were very the Responsible Gambling Trust, and he is right to do addictive and, as I said earlier, 62% said that they would so. I do not distrust the RGT, but there are serious put every last penny into the machines before they left concerns. the shops. Is that not shocking? Philip Davies: Will my hon. Friend give way? Mrs Ellman: My hon. Friend makes some important points, and I urge Government Members to recognise Mr Jackson: Iamalwayshappytogivewaytomy that the heart of the motion is about empowering local hon. Friend. 395 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 396

Philip Davies: My hon. Friend talks about the 6.2 pm precautionary principle in gambling and problem gambling. Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): Mr Deputy That is an argument for banning gambling altogether, Speaker, if you were to step off the train at Sunderland because in any form of gambling there are people who station, you would see a betting shop straight away, and become addicted. On that logic, his argument is to ban you would not need to walk far to see several more. gambling altogether. Is he aware that someone can According to the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, in place a bet on a 5-furlong sprint at Epsom that takes 50 2012 there were 30 betting shops in Sunderland Central, seconds with an unlimited amount of money? There is with 109 fixed odds betting terminals, with gross gambled no limit whatsoever. amounts of nearly £120 million, the second highest in the north-east. The machines have been referred to as Mr Jackson: It is interesting that my hon. Friend, for the crack cocaine of gambling so often that it is easy to whom I have enormous respect—I think that he is become blasé about their effects, but the reason they are wrong on this issue—should touch on the cumulative referred to in such terms is that their relentless speed displacement impact on horse racing¸ football and and high stakes can be devastating. greyhound betting. Problem gambling is associated with a number of Graham Jones rose— mental and physical health issues, including depression and insomnia, in addition to comorbid disorders such Mr Jackson: I cannot give way. The hon. Gentleman as alcohol abuse. Problem gambling is a significant is very engaging, but I must resist his blandishments on health issue, both from a public and a private perspective. this occasion. Although treatment is needed and sought by many, I am not a devil take the hindmost, freemarket libertarian. prevention of extreme gambling behaviours should be I am a Conservative—I am a social conservative. I boosted by giving local authorities the power to restrict believe that there is a compact or bond of trust with the the number of betting shops opening in their areas and most vulnerable people in our society. There is a problem revoke or reduce the number of FOBTs in each branch. with problem gambling. As a Christian, I have compassion FOBTs are purposefully and cynically targeted at the for those people who are stuck with the mindset of most vulnerable in society.They target areas of deprivation feeling that they have to gamble, but my concern is and take money away from those who can least afford mostly for the children and families affected by problem to lose it. In an article published this morning, Dirk gambling. We have a responsibility and a duty. We have Vennix, chief executive of the Association of British regulatory regimes for many things in our society. I Bookmakers, claimed that misinformation was being think that it would be wrong, when so much money is spread on the issue, citing the 2012 health survey for being made, and from some of the poorest people in England, yet the same study shows that nearly twice as society, to walk on by and say that we do not need to many people in the most deprived quintile use FOBTs look at this again. Labour was catastrophically wrong than in the least deprived. It drags vulnerable people on this issue. I think that this is the worst motion the into cycles of debt, exacerbates our cost of living crisis Opposition have ever chosen, because they are on very and turns other shoppers away from our already struggling weak ground. high streets. I believe that the Minister is right to look at the GamCare, which provides support and advice to precautionary principle and to demand all the up-to-date anyone suffering from a gambling problem, has shown information on the B2 machines, which are very that 40% of all calls to its helpline named FOBTs as the sophisticated, from the gambling companies. A code of main problem. There is a clear link between problem practice is not good enough, because we are not talking gambling and debt problems. Research from GamCare about Mother Teresa; we are talking about some pretty and the Money Advice Trust has revealed that debts of ruthless business organisations that are protecting their up to £60,000 might be common among problem gamblers. interests, and some of them are preying on the most It also stated that there is an urgent need to improve vulnerable in society. We need the information. I agree education about gambling for young people in schools. with my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal Education is crucial, but often it is all too late. Problem (Dr Coffey) that we need to base our decisions on data gambling encouraged by FOBTs affects not just adults that can be proven and tested, not on anecdote. but an estimated 60,000 young people aged between Having said that, I believe that the Salvation Army 12 and 15. Furthermore, young people are far less likely has produced a great deal of data. We heard earlier to seek help for their gambling problems. about the increase in the number of problem gamblers The industry is stoking fears that any changes to in recent years. Some 23% of the money spent on FOBTs will inevitably lead to job losses, yet there is an FOBTs was spent by people with gambling problems. inversely proportional relationship between the net takings According to Dr Henrietta Bowden-Jones, the lead of FOBTs and the number of employees in betting consultant at the NHS national problem gambling clinic, shops. As many branches are single-staffed, it can be 50% of the clinic’s patients reported FOBTs to be difficult to monitor users and detect problem gamblers, particularly problematic. and it will be even harder if the industry has its way and In short, we are a Government committed to localism, has the number of machines in each shop increased. so let us give local authorities more powers to look at Betting shop clusters do far more harm than just to use class orders, to crack down on clustering and to gamblers. The Portas review said that look at the absolute number of FOBTs, all of which I “the influx of betting shops, often in more deprived areas, is agree with. But let us have a consensus across the blighting our high streets”. House, rather than vindictive, party political point scoring, Indeed, it puts many people off going shopping on our because this is too important an issue for our families high streets. FOBTs are bad for problem gamblers, bad and communities for that. for our high streets, and bad for public health. I very 397 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 398 much hope that the Government’s promise of localism spoiling the legitimate enjoyment of the 99% of responsible and greater local decision making in planning will count gamblers. The Association of British Bookmakers is for something today, and that they will join us to put bringing forward new measures as part of its code for local communities before the profits of betting shops. responsible gambling and player protection. They include allowing players to limit their spending and the time they spend playing. Mandatory alerts will tell customers 6.6 pm when they have played for 30 minutes or spent £250. Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) Staff will also be alerted. The industry also raises nearly (Con): I rise to speak in support of the amendment in £6 million each year voluntarily for research, education the name of the Prime Minister, which sets out a and treatment for problem gamblers. sensible and measured approach to any future changes The Opposition’s motion claims that they are to policy on fixed odds betting terminals or local authority “alarmed that people can stake as much as £100 every 20 seconds powers in licensing and planning that is based on research on these machines”. into the effect of these terminals on the 1% of gamblers That really over-eggs the pudding and makes the motion identified as problem gamblers. cynical and gimmicky. The Association of British When I visited a local betting shop on a high street in Bookmakers states that it is impossible to credit a my constituency, it was, unexpectedly, a rather quiet, machine that quickly. There is more chance of winning low-key activity. I certainly did not recognise the picture the national lottery for three consecutive times than of painted by the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen losing £18,000 in one hour on a gaming machine. Data Timms), who said that betting shops attracted drunkenness show that most people play for an average of 15 to and bad behaviour. Gambling is as legitimate a leisure 20 minutes and spend about £11 an hour. activity as going to football matches, pubs or the cinema. It is very important that accurate evidence is gathered on the effect of fixed odds betting terminals on the Stephen Timms: Is the hon. Lady aware that it is well 1% of problem gamblers; on the range of measures established that the staff of betting shops are instructed being undertaken by the gambling industry to prevent, not to report violent incidents inside the shops in order identify and treat problem gamblers; and on whether to keep them out of the crime statistics? the powers of local authorities as planning and licensing authorities are appropriate and effective. Any changes Dame Angela Watkinson: I can only say how strongly must also have regard to the 90% of responsible gamblers that contrasts with my experience of visiting a local and the important contribution made by betting shops betting shop in Hornchurch. to local jobs and to the local and national economy, Gambling is enjoyed by 8 million people nationally, including 45,000 jobs and £1 billion in tax revenue. For and betting shops provide local jobs and help to stimulate those reasons, I support the amendment. the economy. People have the right to choose how they spend their disposable income. I have no gambling instinct personally. I choose not to gamble, but that 6.11 pm choice is open to everyone, and I defend the right of Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I refer others to gamble responsibly if that is their choice. the House to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I am also a non-paid, independent Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): My hon. trustee of the Responsible Gambling Trust. Friend is making a very good speech. One of the key The trust was set up under the previous Labour points is that in fixed premises on the high streets Government, who wanted the gambling industry to people cannot drink alcohol. If we were to push more contribute to a voluntary levy towards research, education people into online gambling, who knows what would and treatment. As the hon. Member for Hornchurch happen, as people can sit and drink and gamble at very and Upminster (Dame Angela Watkinson) said, nearly quick speeds? £6 million has been raised towards that end. There are five independent and five industry trustees under the Dame Angela Watkinson: My hon. Friend makes a chairmanship of Neil Goulden. I wanted to intervene good point. The betting shop I visited was more like a earlier on my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich coffee shop, because tea and coffee were being served. East (Mr Watson), who is not in his place—perhaps I question the claim that betting shops are too numerous that is not unusual—to point out that Neil Goulden is or not wanted. Clearly some local people do want them, not the chairman of the Association of British Bookmakers. otherwise they would not remain viable. Passers-by The trust commissions work to look at the core issues were not being dragged into the shop off the street—in affecting problem gambling and, indeed, the treatment fact, most people passed by—and nobody inside was of problem gamblers. It has an excellent chief executive being coerced into betting against their will or spending in Marc Etches, who has considerable experience across more money than they had planned. The well-trained the piece. staff knew most of their regular customers and were I raise the trust’s work because the argument that this trained to notice any addictive behaviour should it industry is unaware of its responsibilities on problem occur. Help and advice was available to any individual gambling is unjustified. The trust has commissioned who needed or wanted it. detailed, independent research into fixed odds betting There is a consensus in Parliament and within the terminals and related matters. The important sub-committee gambling industry that help should be available to the that deals with the research and findings is chaired by a 1% who are unable to gamble responsibly and become senior independent trustee, Liz Barclay, who is a respected addicted. We are right to be concerned about problem broadcast journalist and producer. It has been made gambling but should seek ways to deal with it without clear to the industry that whatever recommendations 399 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 400

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe] price of national lottery tickets being increased from £1 to £2 and because people are able to buy them at 16, the research throws up, the trust will stand by them. An although they cannot go into betting shops until they interim report is expected in March, with a full report are 18. There are many other issues to consider, including to follow. online gambling, which has already been talked about. Today’s debate is important because there are continuing I believe that the debate did not need to be emotive concerns about FOBTs, especially among the Local and that we could have got to the core of the issues. The Government Association and its members, as well as point about local authorities having more powers was parliamentary colleagues. Those concerns are usually well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, connected with the perceived proliferation of betting Riverside (Mrs Ellman). I believe that we need to look shops. The betting industry employs 40,000 people directly at the subject sensibly and wait for the research to come and there are 8,773 betting shops in Britain, which is far out, and then make decisions based on that evidence. fewer than the 16,500 betting shops that existed in the 1970s. 6.16 pm Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I am Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman is making an pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate, excellent speech, as usual. Will he confirm that about a but I first want to add my tribute to my parliamentary third of those betting shops make about £15,000 or less neighbour, Paul Goggins. This cannot be said about in profit each year, and that half of them are independent, many politicians, but I have never heard a bad word family-run businesses—I was brought up in a family-run said about Paul by anyone on either side of the House. betting shop—and not big corporate companies, as the He was a very courteous Minister, and in opposition he Labour party likes to portray them? treated Ministers with respect. He will be sorely missed on both sides of the House, and my thoughts are with Mr Sutcliffe: I accept that there are many independent his family and close friends at this difficult time. betting shops, but the problem, as the hon. Gentleman It is more interesting to see what is not in the motion pointed out in his speech, is the perceived proliferation than what is. Votes on Opposition day motions make no of the main bookmakers on the high street. As he said, difference to Government policy, and we have come to the reason is that they used to be on side streets, but expect from the Labour party motions on aspects of they have now moved to the high streets. The problem disagreement between the two coalition parties. I therefore for the gambling companies is that they are associated fully expected to see yet another Opposition motion with payday loan companies and others on the high that matched Liberal Democrat policy—in other words, street that are causing great concern, especially among a commitment to reduce stakes and prizes, and plans our local government colleagues. for a separate use class for betting shops so that local That is why I have no problem with the motion with authorities are given more powers to restrict the number regard to local government and its powers. Powers of licensed betting shops on our high streets and in our already exist alongside the licensing objectives in the local centres. Back in September, the Liberal Democrats Gambling Act, and many local authorities may use called for betting shops to be put in a new separate those powers if they think betting shops are acting planning use class, which would allow local authority outside those objectives. It is understandable that local planning committees to control their numbers. Just authorities want more powers. As we have heard, FOBTs three months later, Labour announced that it would have always been on probation, and we should reflect legislate to put betting shops in a separate use class so on the fact that the deal done on the Gambling Act that councils could use planning powers to control the restricted betting premises to four machines. number opening in their area, so it is good to see We must have evidence, however, and I think that it Labour following our lead. will be forthcoming through the Responsible Gambling Some, including the hon. Member for West Bromwich Trust, which has asked bookmakers to provide it with a East (Mr Watson), have claimed that the Government whole range of information. To counter the point made have missed an opportunity to proceed with a reduction by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich in stakes and prizes on fixed odds betting terminals. I East, the independent directors will look at the report am therefore rather surprised that the motion fails to and recommendations, and will report to the full trustees. address the fundamental problem of people being able As was said by the Chair of the Culture, Media and to stake £100 a spin. Instead, it simply focuses on Sport Committee, the hon. Member for Maldon slowing down the rate of spin. Even if the rate was (Mr Whittingdale), that Committee looked at the issue slowed to the pace of a normal roulette table, with and determined that the number of machines and of 50 spins an hour, someone could still lose up to £5,000, betting shops should be decided locally by local authorities. rather than the current £18,000. My problem is with the antics of the Campaign for Liberal Democrat Members will not be lectured by Fairer Gambling. It is right and proper for the campaign Labour on fixed odds betting machines. After 13 years to set out its view, but it is not right for it to try to vilify in government, its cultural legacy to our high streets those who oppose its views. It sets out to rubbish any and town centres was 24-hour drinking, lap dancing analysis that is not its own and, in particular, to try to and fixed odds betting terminals. In the face of Liberal rubbish the work of the Responsible Gambling Trust, Democrat warnings, Labour allowed the introduction which was set up to look at issues of problem gambling. of these highly damaging and addictive gaming machines If it is a real campaign for fairer gambling, why is its that have wreaked so much damage to people’s lives, only focus on FOBTs? There are many other areas of although obviously we are delighted that Labour has problem gambling, as the gambling prevalence survey finally woken up to the damage that its policies have has shown. For instance, there are issues due to the caused to deprived high streets throughout the country. 401 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 402

Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman says that he will seen as good. There can be no doubt that FOBTs have a not be lectured by the Labour party, but will he be high potential to cause gambling addiction, but there is lectured by Derek Webb, who is the Unite of the Liberal a tendency to blame betting shops for everything. Democrats—I believe that he has given £150,000 in There has been no talk today of the presence of donations to the Lib Dems over the past year? He heads FOBTs in pubs and motorway service stations. When I the Campaign for Fairer Gambling. Will the hon. drive down the M4 on a Monday and back up it on a Gentleman set out what Derek Webb’s background is Thursday, I can walk into a service station and think and where he got all his money from? that I am in the middle of a mini-casino. Who is policing those places? Equally, there has been no mention Mr Leech: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that of the dominant position of the national lottery.Newsagents helpful intervention. However, I will take no lectures up and down the land have lottery terminals, and from anyone on either side of the House about political scratchcards can be bought anywhere. They are far donations. more accessible and far more addictive than FOBTs. To be fair to the Labour party, some of its Members have accepted that they made a mistake on FOBTs. We have to look seriously at FOBTs and other gaming Indeed, the shadow Secretary of State has admitted machines. However, we must work not only with the that Labour made a mistake. However, Labour’s motion betting industry, but with the pub industry, the owners fails to address the problem of the £100-a-spin stakes of motorway service stations and amusement arcades, that are still allowed on our high streets. I am happy to and Camelot. If we are to legislate properly in this area, reject the motion not only on the basis that it would not we need a strong academic survey of the impact of solve the problems that are created by FOBTs, but prolonged use and of the clientele who use these machines. because the timing of the debate is ill judged, given that It is easy to bash these machines and the industry. the coalition Government are undertaking research into Anecdotal evidence is all very well, but we need facts the impact of FOBTs. and figures before we intervene. The Government have challenged the betting industry Since such gaming machines were introduced in 2002, to implement enhanced player protection measures by there has been no significant change in the level of March this year or face precautionary measures. If the problem gambling. It is not me who says that, but a industry fails to deliver on its commitments, or if at any study that was commissioned by the Gambling Commission time the balance of evidence suggests that action is in 2010. The same study indicated that problem gamblers required, the Government must not hesitate in imposing played up to nine different products. They do not stand a precautionary reduction in stakes and prizes. at FOBTs feeding in note after note; they look for other outlets for their addiction. As well as using the machines, It is no secret that there is disagreement between the a problem gambler bets on the horses and the dogs, and coalition parties. Liberal Democrats believe that there is buys scratchcards. I have not heard anybody talking clear evidence that harm is caused by FOBTs. I am about how many people are addicted to scratchcards, confident that the research will prove that there is a yet people can just walk into a newsagents and buy one. need for action. GamCare’s figures for last year show No hon. Member would disagree that our aim should that 39% of the calls to its helpline came from people be to protect the customer, but my concern is that, by who specifically cited B2 machines. The Salvation Army not debating the issue properly, we are not dealing with estimates that the number of people with a problem problem gamblers. increased by 30,000 between 2007 and 2010. Research conducted by Professor Gerda Reith at the university of In the short time I have left—only 30 seconds—I Glasgow suggests that B2 machines pose a particular must also mention single staffing, on which a briefing risk to problem gamblers because of their rapid rate of has been provided today. That was a problem when I play that offers addicts the quick fix that they are worked in a betting shop, and was the cashier and the looking for. A 2010 study in the European Journal of manager. It is all very well saying that that was due to Public Health found: footfall, because only 20 people walked through the “Virtual gaming machines had the strongest association with door, but those 20 people might want to put on bets at gambling-related problems” the same time. That situation put me under stress. I did of all the activities it studied, which included horse race not have to deal with FOBTs, but such a situation can betting, football betting, the lottery, online gambling, stop members of staff policing them. There is also a casino— social issue. I was being paid only to be the manager that day, not to be the cashier, so I was earning below Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I the minimum wage. If the situation is still going on, it have to drop the time limit to three minutes to get in as needs to be dealt with. many Members as possible. If we could have fewer interventions, it would be helpful. 6.25 pm

6.22 pm Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I refer the House Evans) and his thoughtful, careful speech on this sensitive to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial subject. The Government’s approach is that we need Interests. firm evidence before any change is made to our gambling In debates of this nature, we are in danger of dividing laws. That is absolutely right, and when I sat on the the sector into good and bad gambling companies. Culture, Media and Sport Committee, our gambling Betting shops are seen as bad, while the national lottery, inquiry showed that it is an incredibly complex area which has not even been mentioned in this debate, is with a lot of contradictory evidence. 403 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 404

[Damian Collins] yet that is exactly what is happening on our streets. These machines are being used to launder millions of Several Members have asserted that there has been an pounds of money from criminality, drug dealing, loan uncontrollable, unsustainable boom in gambling, but a sharking, people trafficking and so on. study of the facts simply does not support that. There There is a particularly nasty crime family in my was an increase in the use of FOBTs after the Gambling constituency, and the Home Secretary has spoken on Act 2005 was introduced, but the number of them on numerous occasions about the good work that County the high street has declined in the past three years. Durham has done to tackle organised crime. That crime Betting shops are changing location, but there has been family in my constituency has been moved on from no explosion in their total number. Some Members “cash for crash”, drug dealing and so on, but where are have cited the gambling prevalence survey, which they they now? They are all over these FOBT machines. The say shows a 50% increase in problem gambling, but Remote Gambling Association admitted in September that increase is from 0.6% to 0.9% in problem that FOBTs represent a gambling, according to surveys taken between 2007 and “high inherent money laundering risk”. 2010. The change in numbers in those two studies are within the margin of error, so not necessarily The European Union is likely to include the machines statistically significant, and other studies since 2010 in directive 4 on money laundering, and I would be have demonstrated that instances of problem gambling interested to hear what the Minister thinks about that. are declining. That is why we must have a sensible Even the United Nations office on drugs and crime has evidence-based approach. warned that these games are used by organised crime to launder cash. The EU, the UN and even the Government The scenario that the Labour party paints about recognise how dangerous this is. Despite the assertion gambling on the high street, the prevalence of FOBTs, from the gambling industry and the Association of and the clustering of betting shops, was created entirely British Bookmakers that they fully comply with the law, by the 2005 Act. Was the decision of the then Labour it is clear that, however inadvertently, these machines Government based on robust evidence and science? No. are now an integral and increasing part of the machinery The Act perhaps had good intentions, but it has had of organised crime and money laundering. In the little massive unintended consequences. When Richard Caborn time I have left, I plead with the Government to take gave evidence to the Select Committee, he was asked seriously, in their review, the impact of FOBTs on why the previous Government settled on having four money laundering and their increasing use, and to limit FOBTs in betting shops—what was the reason for that the stake. number? He responded: “There was no magic, scientific arrangement for four, I can honestly assure you. It was an agreement saying what was reasonable 6.30 pm and what we believed—with the evidence that we had—was proportionate at the time. That is exactly how it happened.” Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): This is a serious issue, one that I have campaigned on locally It was their best guess, and it has led to the clustering of and spoken on in this House. I hope the shadow Minister FOBTs on the high streets. Because there is demand for will look at my previous contributions before we go on FOBTs and not enough premises to play them in, local radio tomorrow morning and he will see what I bookmakers have opened new betting shops so they can have said on this issue in the past. have new terminals. I will not be supporting the Labour motion this I was interested in the shadow Minister’s response evening. I will be supporting the Government’s amendment, to my earlier intervention when I said that, on face because a lot of progress is being made. The tone of the value, the wording of the Labour motion suggested that debate—that the proliferation in our high streets is the local authorities could retrospectively change the Government’s fault—is a bit rich when Labour’s 2005 Act, number of terminals in a shop, but only downwards. I which liberalised much of the regulations and legislation, think that refutes the idea that the motion is localist or has caused the problem we are all now concerned about giving powers to local communities in any way. about. If it was, it might do what the Select Committee recommended and give local authorities the power to I share the concerns of many Members on both sides say, “Perhaps we will have more terminals in fewer of the House about the impact that FOBTs are having shops, and fewer shops on the high street” and have the on our constituents, but it is wrong and misguided for power to make that decision. This is not a localist Opposition Members to say that the issue is applicable motion but one in which the Labour party is asking only to those in deprived areas. I represent a constituency councils to do what it wants—close betting shops and with areas of multiple deprivation. The figures for the get rid of FOBTs altogether. amount being gambled in FOBTs in those areas are the same as those for the amount being gambled in the much more affluent areas of Kent, such as Sevenoaks 6.28 pm and Tunbridge Wells, so it is difficult to say that this Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): In the little issue is confined to more deprived areas. time available I will restrict my remarks to the impact of It is important to consider the evidence, collect all the FOBTs on increased criminality and money laundering necessary data and ensure that we respond accordingly. on our high streets. We might criticise the Gambling My only concern, if I were to have one criticism of the Act 2005, but it clearly states that gambling machines Government’s policy, is that that should be done more must prevent quickly. Having an interim report early next year and a “gambling from being the being a source of crime and disorder, report later in the autumn will not be quick enough to being associated with crime and disorder, or being used to support deal with the issue, because it is an increasing problem. I crime”, am not opposed to giving councils more flexibility to 405 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 406 deal with clustering, but the problem is not exclusive to We have heard a lot about the staff in the shops. My bookmakers. As a consequence of previous legislation, hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and it is also the case with payday loan companies, pawnbrokers East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) knows from his and licensed premises. experience that people in those betting shops often feel We do not necessarily need legislation to deal with under pressure not to report things. They have said very this problem. Conservative-led Medway council has clearly that they want to be bookmakers, not bouncers, been working with other organisations and has implemented and that they find themselves intimidated into not a voluntary code of conduct with the ABB to try to reporting incidents. All these are important issues, but ensure that we deal with problem gambling directly. the proliferation and concentration of shops in particular That is a much more sensible way forward and I look areas is the big issue that the Government should address forward to seeing the outcomes of that partnership. first. 6.36 pm 6.33 pm Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Some 400,000 people Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ in this country are problem gamblers and 3.5 million Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for are at risk of developing a gambling problem. These are Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). She took part not small numbers. Furthermore, 50% of problem gamblers in an Adjournment debate I secured in April on this reporting to the National Problem Gambling Clinic say subject, and she agreed that we should give local authorities that fixed odds betting terminals are a disproportionate the opportunity to provide part of the solution. I understand cause of problem gambling. We can understand why that she will not be voting for the motion, but the that is when we hear that these high-stakes machines Government should listen to the spirit of what she has can take bets of £100 per game and that up to £1,800 said, particularly on the rapidity of the research—that can be lost in an hour. Every year in the UK, people was a point well made. lose more than £1 billion on FOBTs, of which problem gamblers lose £300,000. You can get odds of 66:1 on Fulham winning the FA Users do not need to be addicted for catastrophic cup this season, Mr Speaker. I had my usual annual bet problems to be caused to them and their families. It is before the third round. Both Fulham and Norwich tried not just an individual problem, but a grave social and to lose, but we are still in the cup. I mention that to public health issue that we need to recognise and deal make the point to the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip with. Phill Holdsworth, head of external affairs at Christians Davies) that not everybody who has concerns about Against Poverty, says: FOBTs is anti-gambling or views it as anathema. “Where we work with families…where one member…has a The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and problem with gambling it is very difficult and often impossible to Local Government, the hon. Member for Grantham provide any form of debt solution. It is not possible to put and Stamford (Nick Boles) has indicated from a sedentary forward a solution without them receiving help or support for position several times during the course of the debate their addiction. This means the other family members” that the number of FOBT machines has gone down, continue to suffer. He continued: but that is not the case in my constituency. The point of “A debt solution is very difficult to apply when gambling the motion and the debate is about those areas where problems are present.” the number of machines and betting shops is increasing. Problem gambling costs society £3.24 billion a year, I invite him to come with me to Cambuslang main and the addition of each problem gambler severely street, in my constituency, a small main street that now affects the lives of about eight individuals around them. has five betting shops, each with four machines, within As such, about 3 million people are now affected by 200 yards of each other. Before my Adjournment debate problem gambling—every one an individual, every one last April, I visited several betting shops in my constituency, a blighted life, many of them children. We urgently need and in Glasgow close to my constituency and in London, a concerted Government approach and—I believe—a and each time I saw people on the machines for long cross-party approach to address the economic, social periods putting in significant amounts—I could see that and health costs associated with problem gambling. just by standing there. The Government must take The Salvation Army, whose work I pay tribute to in this cognisance of that, instead of just saying that the number respect, says: of machines has fallen. This is a problem about proliferation, “Problem gambling particularly affects the young… Problem as my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) gambling amongst young people is an emerging public health said at the start of the debate. issue. In the UK, over 10% of children who gamble are problem gamblers, whilst 18% of them are at risk gamblers.” My interest in this subject arose in late 2011 when a I agree with the phrase used by the hon. Member for constituent came to me having lost £25,000 in a single Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), when month on a machine in a betting shop in my constituency. he said that many people viewed gambling as anathema. It was no surprise to me that the betting shop was in one I do. We need to review our whole approach towards of the most deprived parts of my constituency. He came gambling. The average treatment for a problem gambler to me not because he thought he had a problem, but costs £675, meaning that £274 million would be required because he thought the machines were fixed. That underlines to treat all problem gamblers in the UK, yet the gambling the point. I spent some time with Hamilton gamblers’ industry’s contribution is just £5 million. anonymous. Strikingly, several younger people in that group had accepted they had a problem, had gone for Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): I understand help and were trying to resolve their issues, but they had that the terminals generate about £300 million of tax a problem relating to these machines. The situation was revenue. Given my hon. Friend’s comments, has she very different with the older people in that group. The considered the impact that Labour’s proposals might Government ought to take that seriously. have on the Exchequer? 407 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 408

Fiona Bruce: They might terminate that amount of races, that is part of a day out, and if £20 is lost on a revenue, but the gross gambling yield for the industry is race, so be it; it can probably be put down as part of the £5.6 billion a year. I consider inadequate a contribution cost of a good day. If someone comes to York and loses of £5 million to research, education and treatment £1,000 on one of these terminals, they will not think activities related to gambling, which equates to less than that they have had a good day out, and they will not 2% of their income. As I say, we need a wholesale forget it. For tourist towns as well as the deprived areas, review. this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. I oppose the Opposition motion, which is wholly inadequate, not least because the hon. Member for 6.43 pm Eltham (Clive Efford), who introduced it, said that the Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): motion was not about problem gambling. Well, it should We have had an extremely lively debate this afternoon be. I support the Government amendment, but I exhort on an issue that many Members across the Chamber the Minister to expedite the research and extend the clearly feel strongly about. Unfortunately, what we heard Government’s work on the devastating causes and from the Minister was breathtaking complacency and consequences of all problem gambling, not least for the the usual “blame Labour” mantra, but it will not wash. sake of our next generation. It is this Government who are failing to take action on the issue and who have facilitated a proliferation of 6.40 pm FOBTs and betting shops on our high streets. Despite the Minister’s speech, a number of Government Members Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Let us start on a seemed to agree with us that additional powers should note of cross-party unity: I agree with much of what the be given to local government. It will be interesting to see hon. Lady has just said. I have limited time, so I will cut whether they rediscover their commitment to localism directly to the chase. I see five Ministers on the Treasury and vote with us in the Lobby. Bench, all of them well educated and intelligent people, so I ask them to think about the contradiction in the A number of Members have made excellent speeches case they are making. They tell us that the Gambling this afternoon. My right hon. Friend the Member for Act 2005 was a mistake, which has intentionally or East Ham (Stephen Timms) spoke of the inadequacy of unintentionally given rise to the current problems, although local government powers to control betting shops, and those of us present in 2005 will remember that we did pointed out that action under those powers can be not talk about fixed odds betting terminals at any overturned on appeal. My hon. Friend the Member for length, but about super-casinos and other matters. Ministers West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), who has done a tell us that that 2005 Act, introduced by a Labour great deal of work on this topic, helpfully drew attention Government, has created a major problem. They blame to the inadequacy of the Government’s research strategy. us for bringing it in and then for doing nothing to My hon. Friends the Members for Preston (Mark correct the situation over the subsequent five years. Hendrick), for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), for North West Durham (Pat Glass), for Rutherglen and I say to those Ministers that if there is a problem—they Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and for York Central accept that there is one, as we heard from the speech of (Hugh Bayley) noted the prevalence of gambling outlets the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and in low-income areas, the problems of debt that that Sport, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald causes, and the negative impact of too many betting (Mrs Grant)—they have a five-year window in which to shops on the high street. My hon. Friend the Member do something about it. Let me challenge the Minister: for North West Durham also noted the rise in criminality will the Government legislate during this Parliament to that is associated with betting shops in some areas. correct what they have told us today about the grave My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside errors in the 2005 Act? I lay down the same challenge to (Mrs Ellman) injected a much-needed degree of sense the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and into the debate by returning us to the central issue of Local Government, the hon. Member for Grantham localism. My hon. Friends the Members for Bradford and Stamford (Nick Boles), who is going to reply. If South (Mr Sutcliffe) and for Islwyn (Chris Evans) spoke Ministers seriously believe that the accusations made of the importance of getting regulation right, not least against Labour Members are correct—that there is a because of the large number of people who work in the serious problem, which I believe there is, and that it industry. needs solving—let me say, “The ball is in your court, chum”. Are Ministers going to bring forward legislation Neither I nor my colleagues object to a betting shop before the general election? or two on the high street, and I appreciate that the industry has a code to encourage responsible gambling, Secondly, Members of all parties have rightly pointed but, as a number of Members have said, that does not out that the top 10% of constituencies with the highest go far enough. It is vital for the Government to take use of, and with the highest profits taken from, FOBTs action to recognise the wishes and needs of local are largely in deprived areas, although they are not all in communities. As many of my hon. Friends have pointed those areas. I would like to mention a group of places in out, there are more than 33,000 FOBTs making £1.5 billion the top 10% that I would call tourist destinations. They each year for the big bookmakers—that constitutes include my constituency of York Central, Blackpool about half their annual profits—and traditional bookies South, Brighton Pavilion, Bournemouth West, Cambridge, throughout the country are being turned into mini-casinos Great Yarmouth, Kensington, Norwich North, Oxford where people can gamble up to £300 a minute. Liverpool East, Torbay and the two Westminster constituencies. alone contains 559 terminals, which took £607 million I do not believe that the proliferation of high-street last year. Newham in east London contains 87 betting gambling in these tourist destinations is good for tourism. shops with 348 terminals, and figures released recently If someone comes to York and has a flutter on York by the Greater London Authority showed a 13% increase 409 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 410 in the number of betting shops in London’s town centres We know that the most urgent case needs to be made between January 2010 and December 2012. We have for changing again the system of use class orders. Use heard how some players have become addicted to FOBTs, classes play a central role in the planning system by and how the machines, and the proliferation of betting defining the potential uses of buildings. They not only shops that promote them, are causing debt and misery, protect certain uses, but also streamline the system by as well as acting as a magnet for crime and antisocial allowing for some changes without the need to apply for behaviour. planning permission. However, over the course of last year the Government have decided to do away with the We always made clear that FOBTs were on probation, protections offered by the use class system and in doing and it was said during the Second Reading of the so have stripped communities of a say in the shape of Gambling Act 2005 that we would keep them under their high streets. In May 2013 the Government introduced review. In 2009, when we were in government, we said changes to use class orders to allow retail use to change that would conduct a review because we were concerned to financial institutions without planning permission about these machines. The current Government, however, for a period of two years, allowing the possibility of have decided to do nothing: five years on, there has more betting shops on our high streets and they also been no review. Government Members claim that local now have the audacity to say they may make this authorities have the powers that they need to regulate change permanent. We are arguing that the Government betting shops, but we have heard time and again from should do what they say they want to do and give councillors of all parties that that is simply not the case. powers to local communities to have a say over what is The next Labour Government will change planning and happening in their high streets, so that if a problem is licensing laws to give councils the right to control the identified with an over-proliferation of gambling and number of betting shops in their areas. If betting shops betting shops local communities are able to pull the are not a problem, as the industry is keen to emphasise, plug on these gaming machines, which are unwanted in they have nothing to fear from such a change. many of our areas. There is considerable cross-party agreement on this issue. As the Leader of the Opposition pointed out 6.51 pm during Prime Minister’s Question Time today, the Mayor TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities of London and the Conservative head of the Local and Local Government (Nick Boles): I understand that Government Association have said that local authorities traditionally Opposition debates were designed to allow do not have the power to limit the number of FOBTs. Her Majesty’s Opposition to attack Government policy Indeed, the Prime Minister acknowledged during Question but since 2010, when I was elected to this House, there Time that there was a problem in the gaming and has been a constitutional innovation, as I am sure you will betting industry, and stated that we need to “sort it have noticed, Mr Speaker. The Labour party uses these out.”If he recognises the problem, why is he not supporting debates to attack Labour Government policy and to our motion this evening? condemn those like the hon. Member for Bradford South As for the Liberal Democrats, during their annual (Mr Sutcliffe) who implemented those policies and to conference in September they agreed to a motion that repudiate anything inherited from the period which would give councils the power to limit the number of many Labour Members like to think of as the Blairite betting shops in their area, agreeing specifically to put apostasy.So this debate is nothing more than an elaborate betting shops in a new separate use class, although they exercise in exorcising the ghosts of new Labour’s past. had previously voted against such a motion in the Let us examine those ghosts. In 2003 the Labour House of Commons. That, of course, is typical Liberal Government doubled the number of gaming machines Democrat behaviour. The wording of their motion was allowed in licensed premises from two to four and very similar to the wording of our motion today. I urge increased the maximum prize from £25 to £250, but that Government Members to recognise that, and to support was not enough. In 2006 the Labour Government saw our motion in order to implement their own policy the gambling industry as the handmaiden of the commitments. regeneration of cities like Glasgow, Manchester and Newcastle and they were not just proposing a row of The country is experiencing a cost of living crisis. The little betting shops: they wanted super-casinos with average person has become £1,600 worse off since the unlimited jackpots. current Government came to power. People are facing extreme difficulties in affording child care, rail fares and There are very few people on the Opposition Benches heating their homes. While the Members on the whom I admire more than the right hon. Member for Government Benches are handing tax cuts out to Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell)—I millionaires, millions of people are struggling, and it is believe the Olympics would never have happened without at a time such as this that the most vulnerable in our her contribution—so in researching this debate I wanted society need protecting. That is exactly what my colleagues to read her words as Secretary of State when she was and I are proposing in this motion. As my right hon. promoting gambling as the best regeneration policy for Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Britain’s inner cities. Imagine my shock, Mr Speaker, Miliband) highlighted when he launched Labour’s policy when I discovered that all of her speeches have been last month, in the poorest areas these betting shops are erased from the Labour party website, and not just her spreading like an epidemic along high streets with the speeches, Mr Speaker, but every speech, every policy pawn shops and payday lenders that are becoming document and every press release predating the speech symbols of Britain’s cost of living crisis. Our local high by the Leader of the Opposition in September 2010. streets must meet the needs of local communities, not We have all heard of communist regimes rewriting simply the wishes of betting companies and other similar history and airbrushing photographs of the politburo, groups. but Soviet measures pale by comparison. The history of 411 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 412

[Nick Boles] if 121 other local authorities think they are a good thing, it seems pretty clear to me that we need no more new Labour is not just being rewritten; it is being planning changes to enable councils to do what they deleted. The noble Lord Mandelson had better watch want to do to protect their local communities. This his step, or, before we know it, he will have gone the way debate has no doubt been helpful for the psychological of Kim Jong-Un’s uncle and been thrown to the ravenous catharsis of the Labour party, and I wish Labour Members dogs. well as they come to terms with their abiding grief We have established that the true purpose of this about the record of the previous Government. This debate has been to heal the Opposition’s psychological Government will continue, with the help of my Liberal traumas. I think we can agree that we are on familiar Democrat colleagues— ground. Labour has decided that another of its policies in government was a mistake. My hon. Friends in the Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to Liberal Democrat party and my hon. Friends the Members move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) and for Enfield, Southgate Question put forthwith, That the Question be now (Mr Burrowes) have consistently and honourably raised put. their concerns about that policy. In Prime Minister’s Question agreed to. questions today, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), reaffirmed his desire to address those concerns sensibly, That the original words stand part of the Question. steadily and with evidence, and to achieve a proper balance. The House divided: Ayes 232, Noes 314. The Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Division No. 172] [6.59 pm Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) has set out in a measured way AYES the work she is doing with the gambling industry, with Abbott, Ms Diane Cryer, John the Responsible Gambling Trust and with other bodies Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Alex to do what the Labour Government did not do before Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim introducing the Gambling Act 2005—namely, to conduct Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Sir Tony research into the impact of those measures. That is the Alexander, Heidi Curran, Margaret research that my hon. Friend is leading, and it will Ali, Rushanara Danczuk, Simon produce a result. Allen, Mr Graham Darling, rh Mr Alistair My opposite number, the hon. Member for City of Ashworth, Jonathan David, Wayne Austin, Ian Davidson, Mr Ian Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods), raised the issue Bailey, Mr Adrian Davies, Geraint of planning controls and article 4. She asked for more Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria powers for councils to introduce restrictions on the Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr John proliferation of betting shops on their high streets. I Barron, rh Kevin Dobbin, Jim think I had better introduce her to one of her colleagues, Bayley, Hugh Dobson, rh Frank a Labour councillor, Fiona Colley. She is a councillor Begg, Dame Anne Docherty, Thomas for Southwark council, which only three months ago Benn, rh Hilary Donohoe, Mr Brian H. introduced immediate article 4 directions to prevent the Benton, Mr Joe Doran, Mr Frank conversion— Berger, Luciana Doughty, Stephen Betts, Mr Clive Dowd, Jim Stephen Timms: Will the Minister give way? Blackman-Woods, Roberta Doyle, Gemma Blears, rh Hazel Durkan, Mark Blenkinsop, Tom Eagle, Ms Angela Nick Boles: I am sorry, I will not give way; I have only Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Maria two minutes. Blunkett, rh Mr David Efford, Clive That Labour councillor introduced an article 4 measure Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elliott, Julie with immediate effect to prevent the conversion of more Brennan, Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise premises from other use classes to that of a betting Brown, Lyn Engel, Natascha shop. Let me quote that Labour councillor’s words on Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Esterson, Bill the Southwark council website—[Interruption.] She is Brown, Mr Russell Evans, Chris a Labour councillor, and Labour Members might want Bryant, Chris Field, rh Mr Frank to listen to her. She knows a lot more about this than Burden, Richard Fitzpatrick, Jim Burnham, rh Andy Flello, Robert they do. Councillor Fiona Colley, who is soon to become Byrne, rh Mr Liam Flint, rh Caroline my favourite councillor, said: Campbell, Mr Alan Flynn, Paul “This innovative, proactive approach to addressing planning Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fovargue, Yvonne legislation will make a tangible change to the lives of people living Caton, Martin Francis, Dr Hywel in areas where so-called ‘financial services’ businesses are so Champion, Sarah Gapes, Mike prolific.” Chapman, Jenny Gardiner, Barry Those article 4 measures, which this Government Clark, Katy Gilmore, Sheila have made it easier to use because they no longer Clarke, rh Mr Tom Glass, Pat require the approval of the Secretary of State, are good Clwyd, rh Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary enough for Southwark. They are also good enough for Connarty, Michael Godsiff, Mr Roger Barking and Dagenham. In fact, 122 local authorities Cooper, rh Yvette Goldsmith, Zac have made 270 article 4 declarations to restrict permitted Crausby, Mr David Goodman, Helen development rights in the past three years. If one Labour Creagh, Mary Greatrex, Tom authority in London thinks they are a good thing, and Creasy, Stella Green, Kate 413 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 414

Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Mr Jim NOES Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Adams, Nigel Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Afriyie, Adam Dorries, Nadine Hamilton, Mr David Nandy, Lisa Aldous, Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Hamilton, Fabian Nash, Pamela Alexander, rh Danny Drax, Richard Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Amess, Mr David Duddridge, James Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Andrew, Stuart Duncan, rh Mr Alan Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Healey, rh John Pearce, Teresa Baker, Norman Ellis, Michael Hendrick, Mark Perkins, Toby Baldry, rh Sir Tony Ellison, Jane Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen Baldwin, Harriett Ellwood, Mr Tobias Heyes, David Powell, Lucy Barclay, Stephen Elphicke, Charlie Hillier, Meg Qureshi, Yasmin Barker, rh Gregory Eustice, George Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Barwell, Gavin Evans, Graham Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Bebb, Guto Evans, Jonathan Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Steve Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Mr Nigel Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Bellingham, Mr Henry Evennett, Mr David Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Jonathan Benyon, Richard Fallon, rh Michael Hunt, Tristram Robertson, Angus Beresford, Sir Paul Farron, Tim Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Berry, Jake Featherstone, Lynne Jackson, Glenda Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bingham, Andrew Field, Mark Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Binley, Mr Brian Foster, rh Mr Don Jarvis, Dan Roy, Mr Frank Birtwistle, Gordon Fox,rhDrLiam Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Blackman, Bob Freeman, George Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Blackwood, Nicola Fuller, Richard Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Blunt, Mr Crispin Gale, Sir Roger Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Boles, Nick Garnier, Sir Edward Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sawford, Andy Bone, Mr Peter Garnier, Mark Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Bradley, Karen Gauke, Mr David Kendall, Liz Shannon, Jim Brady, Mr Graham George, Andrew Khan, rh Sadiq Sharma, Mr Virendra Brake, rh Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Lammy, rh Mr David Sheerman, Mr Barry Brazier, Mr Julian Gilbert, Stephen Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim Bridgen, Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin Brine, Steve Glen, John Leslie, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Brokenshire, James Goodwill, Mr Robert Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Slaughter, Mr Andy Brooke, Annette Gove, rh Michael Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bruce, Fiona Graham, Richard Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Angela Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Grant, Mrs Helen Lucas, Caroline Smith, Nick Buckland, Mr Robert Gray, Mr James Lucas, Ian Smith, Owen Burley, Mr Aidan Grayling, rh Chris Mactaggart, Fiona Stringer, Graham Burns, Conor Green, rh Damian Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stuart, Ms Gisela Burns, rh Mr Simon Greening, rh Justine Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burrowes, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Malhotra, Seema Tami, Mark Burstow, rh Paul Gummer, Ben Mann, John Thornberry, Emily Burt, rh Alistair Gyimah, Mr Sam Marsden, Mr Gordon Timms, rh Stephen Burt, Lorely Hague, rh Mr William McCabe, Steve Trickett, Jon Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl Cairns, Alun Hammond, rh Mr Philip McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, Stephen McCrea, Dr William Twigg, Stephen Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, Matthew McDonagh, Siobhain Umunna, Mr Chuka Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Mr Mike McDonald, Andy Vaz, rh Keith Carswell, Mr Douglas Hands, Greg McDonnell, John Vaz, Valerie Cash, Mr William Harper, Mr Mark McFadden, rh Mr Pat Walley, Joan Chishti, Rehman Harrington, Richard McGovern, Alison Watson, Mr Tom Clappison, Mr James Harris, Rebecca McGovern, Jim Watts, Mr Dave Clark, rh Greg Hart, Simon McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Weir, Mr Mike Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harvey, Sir Nick McKechin, Ann Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McKenzie, Mr Iain Whitehead, Dr Alan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, rh Mr John McKinnell, Catherine Williams, Hywel Collins, Damian Heald, Oliver Meacher, rh Mr Michael Williamson, Chris Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Meale, Sir Alan Wilson, Phil Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mearns, Ian Winnick, Mr David Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Miliband, rh Edward Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Crouch, Tracey Henderson, Gordon Miller, Andrew Wishart, Pete Davey, rh Mr Edward Hendry, Charles Mitchell, Austin Wood, Mike Davies, David T. C. Hinds, Damian Woodcock, John Moon, Mrs Madeleine (Monmouth) Hoban, Mr Mark Wright, David Morden, Jessica Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Wright, Mr Iain Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, Grahame M. Tellers for the Ayes: de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kris (Easington) Susan Elan Jones and Dinenage, Caroline Howarth, Sir Gerald Munn, Meg Nic Dakin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John 415 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 416

Hughes, rh Simon Norman, Jesse Tredinnick, David Whittaker, Craig Huppert, Dr Julian Nuttall, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth Whittingdale, Mr John Hurd, Mr Nick O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Dr Matthew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Uppal, Paul Williams, Mr Mark Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Vaizey, Mr Edward Williams, Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Osborne, rh Mr George Vickers, Martin Williamson, Gavin Johnson, Gareth Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wilson, Mr Rob Johnson, Joseph Paice, rh Sir James Walker, Mr Robin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jones, Andrew Parish, Neil Ward, Mr David Wright, Simon Jones, rh Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Watkinson, Dame Angela Yeo, Mr Tim Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Weatherley, Mike Young, rh Sir George Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, Mike Webb, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Wharton, James Tellers for the Noes: Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Percy, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Claire Perry and Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen White, Chris Jenny Willott Knight, rh Sir Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Question accordingly negatived. Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark That the proposed words be there added. Latham, Pauline Pugh, John Laws, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic The House divided: Ayes 311, Noes 225. Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Sir John Division No. 173] [7.12 pm Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John AYES Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan Adams, Nigel Byles, Dan Leigh, Sir Edward Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Cairns, Alun Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Mr Laurence Aldous, Peter Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Alexander, rh Danny Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Amess, Mr David Carmichael, Neil Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Andrew, Stuart Carswell, Mr Douglas Lidington, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cash, Mr William Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Baker, Norman Chishti, Rehman Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Baldry, rh Sir Tony Clappison, Mr James Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Baldwin, Harriett Clark, rh Greg Luff, Sir Peter Sandys, Laura Barclay, Stephen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Lumley, Karen Scott, Mr Lee Barker, rh Gregory Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Macleod, Mary Selous, Andrew Barwell, Gavin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Main, Mrs Anne Sharma, Alok Bebb, Guto Collins, Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Shelbrooke, Alec Beith, rh Sir Alan Colvile, Oliver May, rh Mrs Theresa Shepherd, Sir Richard Bellingham, Mr Henry Cox, Mr Geoffrey Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Benyon, Richard Crabb, Stephen McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey McCartney, Karl Smith, Chloe Berry, Jake Davey, rh Mr Edward McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Bingham, Andrew Davies, David T. C. McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Julian Binley, Mr Brian (Monmouth) McPartland, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Glyn McVey, Esther Soames, rh Nicholas Blackman, Bob de Bois, Nick Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Blackwood, Nicola Dinenage, Caroline Metcalfe, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Blunt, Mr Crispin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Miller, rh Maria Spencer, Mr Mark Boles, Nick Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Mills, Nigel Stanley, rh Sir John Bone, Mr Peter Dorries, Nadine Milton, Anne Stephenson, Andrew Bradley, Karen Doyle-Price, Jackie Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Bob Brady, Mr Graham Drax, Richard Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Iain Brake, rh Tom Duddridge, James Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Rory Brazier, Mr Julian Duncan, rh Mr Alan Morgan, Nicky Streeter, Mr Gary Bridgen, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel Brine, Steve Ellis, Michael Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham Brokenshire, James Ellison, Jane Morris, James Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Brooke, Annette Ellwood, Mr Tobias Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Bruce, Fiona Elphicke, Charlie Mowat, David Swales, Ian Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Eustice, George Mulholland, Greg Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Graham Mundell, rh David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Burley, Mr Aidan Evans, Jonathan Munt, Tessa Syms, Mr Robert Burns, Conor Evans, Mr Nigel Murray, Sheryll Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Burns, rh Mr Simon Evennett, Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Thornton, Mike Burrowes, Mr David Fallon, rh Michael Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John Burstow, rh Paul Farron, Tim Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward Burt, rh Alistair Featherstone, Lynne Nokes, Caroline Tomlinson, Justin Burt, Lorely Field, Mark 417 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals8 JANUARY 2014 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 418

Foster, rh Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Sir John Swire, rh Mr Hugo Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Gale, Sir Roger Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Garnier, Sir Edward Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Thornton, Mike Garnier, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan Thurso, John Gauke, Mr David Leigh, Sir Edward Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward George, Andrew Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Justin Gibb, Mr Nick Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Truss, Elizabeth Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Tyrie, Mr Andrew Glen, John Lidington, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Uppal, Paul Goodwill, Mr Robert Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Vaizey, Mr Edward Gove, rh Michael Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Vickers, Martin Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Grant, Mrs Helen Luff, Sir Peter Sandys, Laura Walker, Mr Charles Gray, Mr James Lumley, Karen Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Robin Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary Selous, Andrew Ward, Mr David Green, rh Damian Main, Mrs Anne Sharma, Alok Watkinson, Dame Angela Greening, rh Justine Maude, rh Mr Francis Shelbrooke, Alec Weatherley, Mike Grieve, rh Mr Dominic May, rh Mrs Theresa Simmonds, Mark Webb, Steve Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Wharton, James Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe Wheeler, Heather Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry White, Chris Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Whittaker, Craig Hammond, rh Mr Philip McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Whittingdale, Mr John Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Wiggin, Bill Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Willetts, rh Mr David Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Mr Mark Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Stephen Harper, Mr Mark Miller, rh Maria Stanley, rh Sir John Williamson, Gavin Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Stephenson, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Harris, Rebecca Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Wright, Simon Harvey, Sir Nick Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Rory Yeo, Mr Tim Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny Streeter, Mr Gary Young, rh Sir George Hayes, rh Mr John Morgan, Nicky Stride, Mel Zahawi, Nadhim Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Stuart, Mr Graham Heath, Mr David Morris, David Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Sturdy, Julian Jenny Willott and Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Swales, Ian Claire Perry Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg NOES Hinds, Damian Mundell, rh David Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, Mr Russell Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll Abrahams, Debbie Bryant, Chris Hollobone, Mr Philip Murrison, Dr Andrew Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Burden, Richard Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Burnham, rh Andy Howarth, Sir Gerald Newton, Sarah Alexander, Heidi Byrne, rh Mr Liam Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Ali, Rushanara Campbell, Mr Alan Hughes, rh Simon Norman, Jesse Allen, Mr Graham Campbell, Mr Ronnie Huppert, Dr Julian Nuttall, Mr David Ashworth, Jonathan Caton, Martin Hurd, Mr Nick O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Austin, Ian Champion, Sarah Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Dr Matthew Bailey, Mr Adrian Chapman, Jenny James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Bain, Mr William Clark, Katy Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Balls, rh Ed Clarke, rh Mr Tom Jenkin, Mr Bernard Osborne, rh Mr George Barron, rh Kevin Clwyd, rh Ann Johnson, Gareth Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Bayley, Hugh Connarty, Michael Johnson, Joseph Paice, rh Sir James Begg, Dame Anne Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Andrew Parish, Neil Benn, rh Hilary Crausby, Mr David Jones, rh Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Benton, Mr Joe Creagh, Mary Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Berger, Luciana Creasy, Stella Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, Mike Betts, Mr Clive Cruddas, Jon Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cryer, John Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Percy, Andrew Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Alex Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Mr Jim Knight, rh Sir Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Blomfield, Paul Danczuk, Simon Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Blunkett, rh Mr David Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben David, Wayne Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Brennan, Kevin Davies, Geraint Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Brown, Lyn De Piero, Gloria Latham, Pauline Pugh, John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Denham, rh Mr John 419 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals 8 JANUARY 2014 420

Dobbin, Jim Leslie, Chris Sawford, Andy Umunna, Mr Chuka Dobson, rh Frank Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Seabeck, Alison Vaz, rh Keith Docherty, Thomas Lewis, Mr Ivan Shannon, Jim Vaz, Valerie Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew Sharma, Mr Virendra Walley, Joan Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Caroline Sheerman, Mr Barry Watson, Mr Tom Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian Shuker, Gavin Watts, Mr Dave Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona Skinner, Mr Dennis Weir, Mr Mike Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Mr Khalid Slaughter, Mr Andy Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana Smith, rh Mr Andrew Whitehead, Dr Alan Eagle, Maria Malhotra, Seema Smith, Angela Williamson, Chris Efford, Clive Mann, John Smith, Nick Wilson, Phil Elliott, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Owen Winnick, Mr David Ellman, Mrs Louise McCabe, Steve Stringer, Graham Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry Stuart, Ms Gisela Wishart, Pete Esterson, Bill McClymont, Gregg Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wood, Mike Evans, Chris McCrea, Dr William Tami, Mark Woodcock, John Field, rh Mr Frank McDonagh, Siobhain Thornberry, Emily Wright, David Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonald, Andy Timms, rh Stephen Wright, Mr Iain Flello, Robert McDonnell, John Trickett, Jon Flynn, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Turner, Karl Tellers for the Noes: Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Alison Twigg, Derek Susan Elan Jones and Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Twigg, Stephen Nic Dakin Gapes, Mike McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Question accordingly agreed to. Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Glindon, Mrs Mary Meacher, rh Mr Michael The Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, Godsiff, Mr Roger Meale, Sir Alan to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Goodman, Helen Mearns, Ian Resolved, Greatrex, Tom Miliband, rh Edward That this House understands the public concerns around fixed Green, Kate Miller, Andrew odds betting terminals regulated by the Gambling Act 2005; Greenwood, Lilian Mitchell, Austin notes that the Government has made clear that it considers the Griffith, Nia Moon, Mrs Madeleine future of B2 regulation to be unresolved; welcomes the Government- Gwynne, Andrew Morden, Jessica backed research into the effect of fixed odds betting terminals on Hamilton, Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) problem gambling; believes that any development in the Government’s Hamilton, Fabian Morris, Grahame M. policy on this matter should be evidence-led; calls upon the Hanson, rh Mr David (Easington) betting industry to provide the data required for a proper Harris, Mr Tom Munn, Meg understanding of the impact of fixed odds betting terminals; and Havard, Mr Dai Murphy, rh Mr Jim further notes that local authorities already have planning powers Healey, rh John Murphy, rh Paul to tackle localised problems and target specific areas where the Hendrick, Mark Murray, Ian cumulative impact of betting shops or other specific types of Hepburn, Mr Stephen Nandy, Lisa premises might be problematic, as well as licensing powers to Heyes, David Nash, Pamela tackle individual premises causing problems. Hillier, Meg O’Donnell, Fiona Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Onwurah, Chi Business without Debate Hoey, Kate Owen, Albert Hood, Mr Jim Pearce, Teresa Hopkins, Kelvin Perkins, Toby EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Hosie, Stewart Pound, Stephen Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Hunt, Tristram Powell, Lucy Order No. 119(11)), Irranca-Davies, H=uw Qureshi, Yasmin Jackson, Glenda Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Jamieson, Cathy Reed, Mr Jamie REGULATORY FITNESS AND EFFECTIVE EVALUATION Jarvis, Dan Reed, Mr Steve Johnson, rh Alan Reynolds, Emma That this House takes note of European Union Documents Johnson, Diana Reynolds, Jonathan No. 13920/13, a Commission Communication: Regulatory Fitness Jones, Graham Robertson, Angus and Performance (REFIT)–Results and Next Steps, and No. 13921/13, Jones, Helen Robertson, John a Commission Communication: Strengthening the foundations of Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Smart Regulation–improving evaluation; welcomes the Commission’s Keeley, Barbara Rotheram, Steve commitments to lessening the burden of EU regulation on business and its plans to improve its evaluation procedures; and supports Kendall, Liz Roy, Mr Frank the Government’s efforts to press the Commission for further and Khan, rh Sadiq Roy, Lindsay faster progress in reducing EU regulatory burdens on business Lammy, rh Mr David Ruane, Chris and eliminating barriers to growth.—(Mr Gyimah.) Lavery, Ian Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Lazarowicz, Mark Sarwar, Anas Question agreed to. 421 8 JANUARY 2014 UKTI (West Midlands) 422

UKTI (West Midlands) The work was implemented very well because I invited Mr Nick Baird, the former chief executive of UKTI, to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House visit Shropshire on 5 November. There was a real sense do now adjourn.—(Mr Gyimah.) of impetus among UKTI and everyone concerned that, in advance of his visit, opportunities ought to be identified and agreed by all relevant parties. I am extremely 7.25 pm disappointed that Mr Baird has now left the organisation, Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): although I am not sure why he has done so. We had a My debate is on the performance of UK Trade & wonderful day with him in Shropshire and he seemed Investment in the west midlands, and especially Shropshire. extremely enthusiastic about identifying opportunities. I have spent the past year producing a report on UKTI, He promised that he would take a leading role in on which we had a debate last year to which the ensuring that they were sold overseas. I wish him every Minister kindly responded, and hundreds of small and success in whatever he has chosen to do, but it is medium-sized enterprises from around the United Kingdom nevertheless disappointing that he has left the organisation. were interviewed to understand their perception of UKTI On 5 November, we took Mr Baird to see various and what assistance they were receiving from this important projects mentioned in the “Invest in Shropshire”manifesto, Government body on exporting overseas. which is now in the public domain. We took him to see Once the report was finished, it was important for me the flax mill, which according to a report in The Daily to expand and extrapolate the work to focus on Shropshire, Telegraph this week is one of the top 10 most important particularly Shrewsbury, to try to find out how UKTI is buildings in the United Kingdom. The flax mill built in performing to help Shrewsbury companies not only to Shrewsbury was Britain’s first skyscraper. It is in need export but—this is the second part of the body’s of a huge amount of investment, and significant work is responsibilities—to secure direct foreign inward investment being done to transform it into a new facility. into our county. I therefore invited the head of UKTI in We also took Mr Baird to the Harper Adams agricultural the west midlands, Mr Paul Noon, to visit Shrewsbury college in Shropshire, which is one of England’s leading to meet representatives of Shropshire council and the agricultural institutes, so that he could see some of its local enterprise partnership, including the officer responsible extraordinary and pioneering agricultural work and for business development at Shropshire, Mr Mark research, which is another extremely important field in Pembleton. I said to Mr Noon, “Can you list the top 10 which Britain can excel for exports. We all know that inward investment opportunities in Shropshire?” farming techniques in England are among the best, and Unfortunately, he had no idea, which was of great the most efficient and productive, in the world. I am concern to me. I could not understand how, given all the keen to ensure that UKTI does everything possible to resources that UKTI has, it had not carried out work in sell that agricultural expertise, especially to countries in the west midlands to identify and agree on the top the middle east that are looking for innovative and inward investment opportunities in Shropshire. I therefore pioneering ways of farming. tasked Mr Noon to work with the local council and the We took Mr Baird into the town centre of Shrewsbury LEP to identify them. so that he could look at the immense opportunity to I am pleased to state that, as a result of that work, the construct a brand new shopping centre. We also took top inward investment opportunities in Shropshire have him to the shire hall to meet councillors, local business now been identified. They include an innovation park, a representatives and the LEP so that he could identify new shopping centre for Shrewsbury, opportunities in key areas with which Shropshire needs assistance to sell transport, leisure and tourism, and agriculture—of course, itself to overseas markets. Shropshire is an important agricultural community. I We ended the day by taking Mr Baird to one of my have sent the Minister an electronic copy of “Invest in favourite pubs in the village of Atcham, the Mytton Shropshire”, and I am pleased to be able to show him a and Mermaid, where he met more than 50 small and printed version today.All the opportunities in the brochure medium-sized business leaders from throughout Shropshire, are now agreed between UKTI and the local council. I many of whom are already exporting. He had the hope that he will talk about those opportunities when opportunity to find out about some of the extraordinary he responds. success that SMEs in Shrewsbury and Shropshire have This work was carried out very well towards the end had in exporting, in certain cases with the assistance of of last year. I pay tribute to Mr Paul Noon and his team UKTI. for working so assiduously with the council and the I was due to meet Mr Jon Harding of UKTI to LEP to identify the projects, to agree on them, and then continue discussions this week, but unfortunately, due to start to move them forward. However, I worry that to a family bereavement, he was not able to come to the such work has not been carried out in the past and that House of Commons. I hope to see him in due course, it took me such a concerted effort to get all the parties however. We also have meetings planned with Michael together. Interestingly, I have spoken to many fellow Boyd, and I have met Lord Livingston, the new Minister MPs in other shire counties—I will not name them in the other House, whom the Prime Minister has all—who are quite surprised by the work that has been appointed to take the lead on running UKTI. For the carried out in Shropshire. They do not see similar record, I have asked the chairman of the 1922 committee activities in their own counties, and they are starting to to invite him to address all Conservative Members of get interested in what we are doing. If the project is Parliament. He felt that he was not yet ready to address successful and the newly formed LEPs, the councils and us, but I very much hope that when he is more settled in UKTI agree to co-operate, I very much hope that the the job, he will do so formally. I want Lord Livingston, best practice of the work we have done in Shropshire the successor to Lord Green, to have far more interaction can be disseminated to other shire counties. with us in the House of Commons. 423 UKTI (West Midlands)8 JANUARY 2014 UKTI (West Midlands) 424

[Daniel Kawczynski] I understand why the Government are focused on a localism agenda. Shropshire borders Wales, and it has I berate, decry and am genuinely concerned about the lost business to Wales because of the incentives and fact that this debate is only the fourth or fifth on British grants that the Welsh Assembly can offer to certain exports in this Parliament, four of which I initiated. I companies. When there are different Assemblies and find that staggering, given that we all think that exports Parliaments, there will be differences across national are so important to the balance of payments and the boundaries as different parts of the United Kingdom prosperity of this country, and for attracting inward try to attract investment. Being a border town, Shrewsbury investment to our country and getting hard currency for is very conscious of that. There are discussions about our communities and the country as a whole. I am giving Wales separate tax-raising powers and there is, of amazed at the general lack of interest in UKTI and the course, a big debate going on in Scotland. I will be lack of scrutiny that generally tends to happen in the interested to hear the Minister’s long-term plans on House. I very much hope that Lord Livingston, when he empowering local councils, such as Shropshire council, has settled in properly to his role, will try to change that eventually to have the ability to differentiate themselves and that he will engage with the House of Commons so so that they can attract foreign direct investment, whether that we are more involved in scrutinising UKTI. that is through taxation or by charging different rates. All the opportunities identified are now listed on We are still borrowing more than £100 billion a year www.investinshropshire.com. I very much hope to hear to balance the books. There is nothing more important from the Minister what UKTI will do in the west than securing foreign direct investment. We are the fifth midlands and nationally to promote and sell the largest economy in the world, but only the 12th largest opportunities overseas. exporter. I, for one, will not rest until we are the fifth largest exporter in the world and until shire counties It is brilliant that the United Kingdom is the top such as Shropshire start to receive greater assistance destination for foreign inward investment in the European compared with London and the south-east so that we Union. The Minister may correct me if I am wrong, but can attract our fair share of foreign direct investment. my understanding is that the United Kingdom has the No. 1 ranking in the EU for attracting such direct 7.42 pm investment. That is an extraordinary achievement, and I certainly pay tribute to the work of UKTI, the Minister The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and others for ensuring that the United Kingdom is in and Skills (Michael Fallon): I congratulate my hon. such an extraordinary position. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this debate and thank him for There is, however, an over-dependency on London his comments on the work of UKTI in the west midlands. and the south-east. What steps is the Minister taking to I know that he is a great supporter of local businesses ensure that the whole structure of UKTI is more focused and that he encourages them to trade internationally. on selling opportunities in shire counties and areas outside London? Our capital city is of course very Last year saw a significant rise in the export of goods important and will inexorably attract the lion’s share of from the west midlands. The region exported goods direct foreign inward investment. Many of the foreign worth more than £22.5 billion in 2012-13. In the first business men I know gravitate inextricably to London, three quarters of this financial year, goods worth more barely venture outside it and always look at opportunities than £19 billion have already been exported, with a there. UKTI therefore has a responsibility to try to total of 6,222 companies exporting goods from the present equivalent like-for-like investment opportunities, region. That success is being led by companies such as or tangibly similar opportunities, outside London to Jaguar Land Rover and JCB, but I am sure that some of calibrate foreign direct investment more across the whole it can be attributed to UKTI’s team in the west midlands. of England and the United Kingdom, rather than just There are 39 UKTI international trade advisers in the in London. London accounts for 13% of the United west midlands, including four who cover my hon. Friend’s Kingdom’s population yet, according to Ernst and Young, constituency. They are employed by the chambers of it receives 45% of all projects involving foreign direct commerce under a contract with UKTI. More than investment. 2,200 small and medium-sized enterprises were supported across the region in 2012-13 and nearly 2,700 have been I am now involved in only one all-party group. I have supported so far in this financial year. That is a 20% increase. been the chairman of the all-party group on Saudi That is partly due to six additional advisers being Arabia for the past eight years. I feel passionately about appointed this year. UKTI has two specialist mid-sized that country, and we ought to engage far more with it to business advisers in the west midlands, who support secure foreign investment from it. I will play my part in companies with a turnover of between £25 million and trying to sell the opportunities in Shropshire, but I look £500 million. Those businesses include Bournville college, forward to hearing what steps the Minister will take to with its links to India and Malaysia, and Morgan support us. Advanced Materials, a defence company based in Coventry According to a UKTI report, 1,559 projects across that is looking to south America and the middle east. the United Kingdom were financed by foreign direct In the first nine months of this financial year, businesses investment last year. Those projects created more than supported by UKTI in the west midlands declared that 59,000 jobs in this country, which is a staggering amount they had secured business wins of more than £281 million. of additional employment. That FDI not only secured Those businesses include Serious Games International, those jobs, but protected an existing 110,000 jobs in the a Coventry-based company that uses video games United Kingdom. We cannot overestimate the importance technology to solve business problems. With UKTI’s of securing foreign direct investment into the United help, the company has secured business in Singapore Kingdom. worth £250,000 this year. 425 UKTI (West Midlands)8 JANUARY 2014 UKTI (West Midlands) 426

A range of support is provided for companies in the pending formal sign off, which is expected at the next west midlands, including Passport to Export for novice LEP board meeting this month. UKTI is represented exporters, and Gateway to Global Growth for more on two of The Marches LEP’s three business boards, experienced exporters. Help and advice is also provided where input is provided into the business support agenda to carry out research, visit and exhibit overseas, and to covering both trade and investment. find the right contact in more than 100 international UKTI also supports joint events and activities within markets. For example, as my hon. Friend may know, the the LEP, running five Export for Growth events across Shrewsbury-based diamond chainsaw and blade supplier, Shropshire in 2013. The next event is this month and Toolguy Ltd, has been supported by the UKTI west will involve my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State midlands Shropshire team through the Gateway to Global for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. UKTI is Growth programme. That company now exports to working with the LEP on the opt-in for the new European France, New Zealand, Brazil and the United States, regional development fund programme, which has the with exports accounting for almost a third of its total potential to bring in an additional £426,000 a year for sales. export support. UKTI also introduced the Whisky Trading Company UKTI Investment Services also works with partners based in Shrewsbury to one of Japan’s leading travel across the west midlands. It is focused on delivering new agencies, Japan Travel Bureau. That deal has seen the investments and creating jobs within existing foreign company exhibited in catalogues on planes and trains direct investment companies. In 2012-13 it was involved all over Japan. Working with UKTI’s international in 88 projects leading to the creation of 4,600 jobs and trade advisers is a UK export finance adviser based in the safeguarding of a further 4,583 jobs—a total of the region, soon to be increased to two UKEF advisers. some 9,189 jobs across the west midlands. UKTI Investment The current adviser has been invaluable in supporting Services has also developed closer working relationships companies to take up UKEF’s range of short-term with The Marches LEP in the past 12 months, leading export finance products. For example, working with to safeguarding jobs and securing new jobs within HSBC, support was provided through the bond support existing local investors. UKTI Investment Services, as scheme to Vee Bee Filtration UK based in Stourbridge. my hon. Friend said, is supporting Shropshire council UKEF helped the company obtain two letters of credit to develop a number of sectoral propositions, which in lieu of a performance bond and a warranty bond include: agri-tech, food and drink, environmental worth £175,000 in total. That helped the company to technologies and creative industries. They will be start work on a £1.67 million contract with a large US incorporated into The Marches LEP offer this year. My construction and engineering business. hon. Friend has worked with UKTI Investment Services Many events are arranged and held in the region by and Shropshire council over the past four months to UKTI and its partners throughout the year. For example, prioritise and develop opportunities to attract inward last November, 1,250 west midlands firms attended investors to the area. I understand, as he said, that more than 20 events as part of export week—the biggest templates have now been developed for six key opportunities turnout of any region in the country. Explore Export, aimed at securing future overseas investment into which took place at Edgbaston that week, saw 350 firms Shropshire. Indeed, I understand that representatives meet commercial officers from 65 countries. from the Regeneration Investment Organisation will be The first major event of 2014 will be on 22 January at visiting the west midlands on 17 January, and that they JCB’s “Meet the Mittelstand”. That will introduce medium- have arranged to meet Shropshire council to develop an sized businesses to what makes German companies of action plan to promote those opportunities. that size so successful in the global market place. Lord My hon. Friend asked me one specific and fair question. Livingston will be speaking at the event in his first How much of UKTI activity, he asked, takes place regional visit as the new trade Minister. UKTI in the outside the capital, where there are more obvious west midlands will again be organising events in the two opportunities to encourage overseas inward investment? export weeks in April and November this year. It will I can tell my hon. Friend that 70% of UKTI activity also take part in the international business festival in takes place outside London. Liverpool starting in June, including arranging an event I thank my hon. Friend once again for securing this on India. debate. I hope he agrees that UKTI in the west midlands UKTI west midlands also works closely with BIS is having an effective impact on trade and investment growth accelerator and the manufacturing advisory service not only within his constituency but across the region as to provide ongoing appropriate support to companies. a whole. Meetings are held on a monthly basis, sharing data and Question put and agreed to. developing case studies to aid mutual referral. UKTI works closely with local enterprise partnerships. For example, UKTI in the west midlands has developed an 7.52 pm international trade plan with The Marches LEP. That is House adjourned.

77WH 8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 78WH

Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate my Westminster Hall hon. Friend on securing the debate. I am enjoying the reverie across the car park, the pub and the village Wednesday 8 January 2014 green. Does he agree that, although we all want development on brownfield land first, the most important idea to take to the Minister is that housing projections by local [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] authorities must be realistic and ascertainable rather than unrealistic? Planning Reform Mr Heath: I will be touching on five-year supply in a Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting moment, because it is critical to what is happening. be now adjourned.—(Mr David Evennett.) Let me say a little more about Norton St Philip. Under the new Mendip plan, it has been classified as a 9.30 am “primary village”, and along with that goes a requirement Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): It is a for 70 new homes. That is predicated on the newly pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. reopened shop and post office. Without that shop and I am delighted to have secured the debate today. I post office, Norton St Philip would revert to being a ought to start with two disclaimers. First, although secondary village, with a requirement for 40 new houses. I served for 12 years on a county council, a strategic Setting that aside, what has happened already is 73 new planning authority, I have never served on a district houses. The applications before the planning authority council and am ignorant of some of the niceties of local provide for a further 223 houses in that small village. In planning procedure. Secondly, despite some small differences other words, were those applications to be approved, in government with the Minister—I have rather an the size of the village would be doubled, without any affection for productive agricultural land, which he improvement to the infrastructure, and, needless to say, affects not to share—I believe in principle in the reforms the character of the village would be hugely changed in introduced by the Government. It is absolutely right the process. that we turn around the principles of planning to make I am particularly exercised by one of the applications, it more responsive to local people and base it on local although I know that Members of Parliament should priorities rather than on a Whitehall-knows-best approach. always be cautious about getting involved with local The reason for calling today’s debate, however, is planning decisions. Nevertheless, to build on what is simply that the reality in many local authorities at the called Great Orchard, which is the site of the battle of moment—certainly for those in my constituency in Philip’s Norton, the skirmish during the rebellion, seems Somerset—is the precise reverse of that. In the absence to me to be an extraordinary proposition. It is deep of agreed local plans and agreed five-year supply, far within the heart of the conservation area of the village from empowering local communities, we are disfranchising and would put at risk some 200 metres of the finest dry them from decisions that will have the most profound stone wall to be seen in Britain. I apologise to hon. impact on their local areas. That is what I want to Members if I am exercising my Baedeker view of my impress on the Minister today. constituency, but it is vital to understand that the village is an important and historic settlement. I cannot see the I could give a number of examples from my constituency, circumstances in which such a proposition would be such as the villages of Evercreech, Rode or Beckington, approved, and of course it was not—it was not approved all in Mendip, or Huish Episcopi, where a recent planning in the local plan and was not part of what was reserved inspector’s decision has gone in completely the opposite for development. direction to that wished by the district council, and by local people, as evidenced through the parish council. People in the village are perfectly happy to ensure As an illustration, however, I will use the village of that the building that is already taking place and that Norton St Philip, which I have raised with the Minister which is projected in sensible places go ahead. They are before in the Chamber. It is an example of what is not averse to development in the village. However, they actually happening on the ground. do not want their village destroyed. That is a perfectly proper proposition. Norton St Philip is a beautiful village: it is an historic settlement and a conservation area; it has, arguably, one David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate of the oldest pubs in the country; and it was the scene of the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this important debate. a battle during Monmouth’s rebellion. It has everything Does he agree that one of the major problems with going for it, including one of the most spectacular views planning—it has been for many years—is inconsistency? from the said pub’s car park across the village cricket One council area will approve one thing; the neighbouring pitch to the church—a view that one might wish to see council area will not approve it. There needs to be the anywhere in the country. The village also has the fortune, flexibility, especially with town centre developments. If or misfortune, of being only a few miles away from we are to regenerate our town centres, we need that Bath, with its inflated Georgian infrastructure. Those flexibility, but inconsistency in planning has been a few miles are green belt, and Norton St Philip is therefore problem for many years. in reasonably high demand as a dormitory village for the cities of Bath and, to a lesser extent, Bristol. Mr Heath: I agree that we need flexibility, and that The problem that Norton St Philip faces at the moment is better determined by local people understanding is that it is under siege from developers, with five local needs, rather than by an inspector in a planning applications already before planners and a further two department—in Bristol in our case—determining a case in the pipeline. That could have a disastrous effect on on the basis of rules derived from Whitehall. Local the fabric and nature of the village. people should determine what is best for their area. 79WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 80WH

Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Perhaps my The second key factor is the weight that the emerging hon. Friend’s constituents are like mine. It is not nimbyism local plan has in planning inspectorate decisions, as and they are not against development per se. Does he it is developed, consulted upon and submitted to the agree that it is all about a sense of proportion? Things Department. The Minister said to me in the House a seem to be out of all proportion, which is what is few months ago that the plan has weight, but that is not causing concern. evidenced by the decisions taken by planning inspectors, who are not working on the basis of ministerial aspiration Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. but of regulations—quite rightly, as that is the only Let me come on to where I think things are going basis they can work on—which require them to look at wrong. We have a free-for-all at the moment, an avalanche different criteria. We are therefore seeing inspectorate of applications that are opportunistic in nature, because decisions that do not match the desires of local communities the local plans have not been agreed. for local planning. The Minister has said on a number of occasions, I have to say to the Minister that, when we are talking “Well, it is up to local authorities to have their plans about large conurbations, sometimes it really does not approved.” He is right—of course it is up to them, and matter which bit of land is developed—there is capacity everyone understands that, but he underestimates the for spread, so if one development comes on it is possible difficulties and the extent of the changes in the process. to deselect another bit of land to bring everything back The early adopters of local plans had an easy time. into kilter—but when we are talking about small market Some of the local plans, which the Minister can look at towns and rural areas, the topography does not allow in his office, are paper thin and would never get through for that. If the wrong bit of that sort of community is the process now, but because they were done right at the developed, it does not help to deselect what would have start, they went through. The smaller rural district been the right bit for development. Deselection does planning authorities in particular are now struggling not work. with an extraordinarily cumbersome and complex process. There is another aspect concerning the inspectorate Let me deal with some of the issues that are bedevilling that I shall mention in passing: the perverse decision, that process. The key is the five-year supply, which I which has been evidenced more than once now, that have mentioned. There is a lack of definitive guidance because a particular design of building is right in one on how it is to be calculated. There was a clear promise place, it will necessarily be right anywhere. As a result of from the Department for Communities and Local that, we have lost the sense of the vernacular, which is Government that definitive guidance would be produced key to good planning. We should be able to ensure that in August last year, but it has not appeared. Two things the buildings in a particular area suit how buildings in are happening as a result. First, planning authorities that area have been built historically and fit with the are struggling to understand exactly what is required. urban or rural community landscape. Instead, the same Secondly, plans are being picked apart at planning model of house is relabelled in different parts of the inquiries by clever QCs, who are going back to the first country: in Somerset, they would probably call it a principles in the planning framework and using those to thatched cottage, despite the fact that it is an executive override any sensible local decision making. four-bed home, whereas in the north it would be called There are tensions within the system. Historically, the Ullswater model or something like that. It is nonsense. census figures have been used, but it now seems as Such decisions show whatever the visual equivalent is of though economic aspiration is a key factor. Economic having cloth ears. aspiration is fine, except that if it does not come to I have a number of modest requests for the Minister. fruition, an area is left with the houses but not the jobs, First, I want emerging local plans that are on the point which does not make sense. of publication to have real weight in the planning There is also the fundamental problem that housing process—to have what is called materiality. That is supply is effectively determined by the house builders simply not the case at the moment. If he wants that to themselves and what they say they will be bringing happen, he has to make it happen by regulation—to forward in a particular year. Let us not kid ourselves: instruct planning inspectors that they have to give the there are a limited number of national house builders plans real weight and back local councils in doing the that effectively have an oligopoly of supply. They are right thing. That is the whole principle of localism. coming forward with figures that might look all right on Secondly, the Minister needs to provide definitive paper, but the house builders will build only when the guidance on the five-year supply, to show exactly what margin meets their requirements, and the profit margin is to be taken into account and how it is to be calculated. on those developments is relatively high. The Government He must not leave it to clever QCs representing house might wish to see more houses built—I certainly do, as builders to determine what is right for a particular local we desperately need them across the country—but area. That is not localism, but an absolute divorce from developers are interested in banking development land it. Until we have that clear guidance, I do not believe the rather than building when their marginal profit is not at situation will improve. its greatest. Thirdly, we need to give real weight to the views of As a result, we have perverse incentives for developers parish councils. That is a gap in the new legislation. At to acquire permissions but not develop the projects. We the moment, they are virtually non-people, and do not have what are called technical starts, where developers have the locus they should have in planning decisions. I will put in a road and say, “We have started that project, recently read a speech by the Minister about the importance but we are not actually going to build any houses of neighbourhood plans. We went down that road with yet—we will leave that for the moment. Meanwhile, let’s the previous Government and their village plans. get on with our next application for the next bit of land I have 135-odd villages in my constituency, and many that we see.” That can distort the entire local plan and of them spent months and years of really hard work on what emerges from it. developing their village plans, thinking that what they 81WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 82WH were doing would affect future planning decisions and consideration should be given to the impact on ensure that what was built matched needs and locality. householders, as the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve The reality was, of course, that those plans were completely Baker) mentioned in his intervention, so that they may ignored. I am worried that neighbourhood planning object and a balance can be struck in the countryside will go down exactly the same road. Indeed, people are between the drive for green energy and the impact on now so cynical that they might not engage with people and the quality of their lives? neighbourhood planning in the first place, because they do not believe it will have an effect. Unless we can show Mr Heath: With the greatest respect to the hon. that it will bring a real improvement to local planning Gentleman, I do not want to divert this debate to decisions, people will not engage. energy, which is a completely different issue. I have always suggested that energy generation should be subject Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): My to the same sort of planning considerations as other hon. Friend has mentioned backing local councils and industrial development. Although I am strongly supportive parish councils as well; that is an important part of this of renewable energy, I do not believe that it overrides all discussion. There is a problem, however, when those other considerations and I believe that such matters are two organisations come into conflict. On my website best decided at local level. However, I do not want to there is a petition, with nearly 2,000 signatures, objecting derail this debate, which is about more routine planning to our current plan. How does he think district councils policy. and parish councils could work together better to create greater consensus among local residents? Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way? Mr Heath: That is important, and I believe there is a duty of co-operation within the local planning process Mr Heath: This is the last time I will give way because that involves that sort of consideration. As I said, I have I want to give other hon. Members a chance to speak. never sat on a district council in my life, but I know from my experience as leader of a county council, Jason McCartney: I congratulate my hon. Friend on where we were dealing with matters such as mineral securing this debate, the importance of which is evident planning, that getting consensus is a long and iterative from the turnout this morning. It is interesting to hear process. I do not believe that it is impossible for local that he has 135 villages in his constituency. I will name people to achieve that consensus when they work together just five communities in mine: Lindley, Linthwaite, with shared objectives, but it is difficult when a plan is Upperthong, Netherthong and Golcar. They are facing overridden by an inspector at appeal, or, worse still, the prospect of open land being pounced on by developers when a district council feels so powerless to resist planning because my Labour-run Kirklees council’s local appeals that it rolls over in advance of them. We have development framework is up in the air and it is refusing seen that time and time again with local councils. to use the latest figures from the Office for National Statistics. The nub of the matter is that when local Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): My hon. Friend has councillors on the planning sub-committee listen to made a powerful case outlining the mess that we are in. local concerns and are minded to refuse an application, Just to be clear, is he content that the system should, its planning officers run roughshod over them, so there ultimately, leave decision-making powers with the unelected is no local democracy and no local accountability. planning inspector, or does he agree that those powers ought to be much closer to the property owner, the householder and the community? Mr Heath: The nomenclature of the villages in my hon. Friend’s constituency is as euphonious as those in Mr Heath: Ultimately, I would like the planning mine. I could trade some wonderful village names with inspectorate to be redundant and local plans to be him. I am grateful for his intervention. sufficiently robust to provide for the planning environment I have said that I want four things to be considered: and, if necessary, local planning courts to determine the materiality of emerging local plans, a definition of whether there is a clear breach, but we are a little way “five-year supply”, the position of parish councils, and away from that. In fact, the situation is quite the reverse: the vernacular, which is really important. I urge the Her Majesty’s planning inspectors—I am not criticising Minister to look at that. It may seem to be a minor them because they are only doing their job within the matter, but simply allowing uniformity of design throughout rules they have been given—are the planning authority the country is contrary to the organic way in which for many of our rural areas. That cannot be right. architecture has developed in this country and is a hugely retrograde step. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. I want to make one more suggestion. Central Gentleman give way? Government often put huge pressure on local councils to do things within time scales and castigate them if Mr Heath: I am trying to conclude to give as many they do not. Could the same discipline be applied to the hon. Members as possible a chance to speak, but I will Government in terms of non-determination? It seems give way. to me that local authorities are desperate to get local plans certified. Why do we not have a period following Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman has talked a good completion of the local plan process—perhaps six weeks deal about the impact of housing development on rural from the plan being lodged with the Department—when communities and so on. Does he have the same concern it will be certified or will be deemed to have been about the drive for green energy, wind turbines and the certified irrespective of the planning Minister’s decision? targets set by Europe? Does he believe that the same It is no good the Government saying that they do not 83WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 84WH

[Mr Heath] local authorities are effectively forced into permitting development on greenfield sites. A Thornaby Independent have the resources to deal with the issue—they do not Association councillor questioned the reason for the accept that argument from planning authorities. The very existence of a planning committee under the NPPF suggestion is a modest but good one, and I am sure that regime. Despite that, Stockton council has been under the Minister, being a radical Minister, will want to continual attack by the hon. Member for Stockton adopt it. South (James Wharton) for its planning decisions. He Something is seriously wrong not with the principle branded the council’s leader “Bob the Builder”, despite but with the operation of planning reform. It is causing the fact that since May 2010 the hon. Gentleman has great concern throughout the country. There is concern not once objected to a planning application, and his that communities will be distorted by opportunistic Government are coercing the council into making the developments that our local authorities are apparently decisions. When Yarm councillor Mark Chatburn defected powerless to stop in the present circumstances. We must from the Tories to UKIP, he cited as one of his main look closely at that. I do not want suburban sprawl reasons the hon. Gentleman’s silence prior to planning across my rural constituency, but I see a risk of that. Of decisions and his refusal to utter a word of criticism of course I want houses to be built—we have a desperate the NPPF. need for them— but I want the right houses in the right It is not just Stockton council that finds itself under places for the right reasons determined by local people. attack. Redcar and Cleveland borough council has been Those are exactly the principles that the Minister has subjected to criticism about its draft local plan from espoused in his planning reforms. What I do not want, local Liberal Democrats. I have submitted a response to to almost quote the immortal words of Peter Seeger, is the consultation on this document, as has my colleague little boxes made of ticky tacky. Anna Turley, Labour’s prospective parliamentary candidate for Redcar, who urged the inclusion of a commitment Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. A glance round to a traditional pier and stressed her opposition to the Chamber demonstrates that quite a lot of hon. proposed developments in Marske. Members are trying to catch my eye. I want to make Confusingly, however, despite criticism by the hon. two points. First, the drill is that hon. Members write to Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) and Redcar and Cleveland Mr Speaker indicating their intention to speak in debates. Liberal Democrats of the council’s draft plan in the Those who have not done so will be at the bottom of the press and their focus leaflets, they have not responded list rather than the top. Secondly, I have the authority to to the consultation. Will the Minister explain why the impose a time limit, but I do not believe in time limits. I Redcar Liberal Democrats have failed to respond to believe that we should have self-regulation and good this consultation when Ministers repeatedly tell the manners rather than rules, so if hon. Members restrict House about the importance of having a strong local themselves to about five minutes that would be extremely plan? Does he believe that their silence is indicative of a helpful. belief that local plans are unimportant, not locally controlled and subservient to diktats originating in 9.56 am Whitehall? Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your Jason McCartney: On a point of order, Mr Gray. chairmanship, Mr Gray. I take on board your comments Surely the general atmosphere of Westminster Hall and will be as succinct as possible. I thank the hon. debates is about raising issues on behalf of constituents. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) and We are listening to a blatant political speech, which congratulate him on securing this important debate. names particular people. What is your judgment on The Government’s planning reforms are of great importance that? on Teesside and in East Cleveland and I intend to discuss their effect in those areas and raise the concerns Mr James Gray (in the Chair): That is not a point of of my constituents and local government leaders. order. I have listened very carefully to all the speeches Planning policy makers have the difficult job of made in the Chamber this morning, and if they were reconciling conflicting interests, but the Government’s out of order, I would have made the hon. Member approach to planning policy, particularly their Localism concerned know that they were. So far, the hon. Gentleman Act 2011, is distinctly centralist. The national planning who is speaking is making political points, and he is policy framework ties the hands of local planning perfectly entitled to do so in a Chamber such as this. committees and removes much of their discretion in making decisions about planning applications based on Tom Blenkinsop: Thank you, Mr Gray. On a final local conditions. On Teesside, Stockton-on-Tees borough note, the Government have abolished most of England’s councillors, both Labour and Opposition, have been regional government and governance structures, but particularly vocal about that. Stockton council is not in has the Minister considered reintroducing a regional my constituency, but its members have made several element into planning? Currently, one of the few parts very valid and interesting points. of joined-up thinking in the formation of local plans is In November 2013, Stockton council passed a motion neighbouring authorities responding to each other’s calling for an urgent review of the NPPF. It resolved consultations, with the Tory Hambleton district council, that the framework effectively removed planning control for example, responding to Redcar and Cleveland’s from the local community and placed it in the hands of plan, supporting the construction of housing in my developers. It also made the interesting and valid point constituency so as to avoid its having to be built in the that that is coupled with massive reductions in available constituency of the Secretary of State for Foreign and funding for the remediation of brownfield sites and that Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for 85WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 86WH

Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague). That seems like a very that are easiest to develop in the five-year supply.Invariably, unco-ordinated way to co-ordinate development. If those are greenfield sites, so brownfield sites will get put requirements were determined on a regional basis, it to the back. would be more efficient and would allow for more I give as an example the Banbury canalside site in my strategic planning. Again, I thank you for calling me to constituency. The intention is to have that built in the speak on this important matter, Mr Gray, and I look centre of the town on an area that was in the flood forward to the Minister’s response. plain, but now no longer is, because we built adequate flood defences. The plan is for 950 houses, but my Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Before we move on, I district is so determined that it has to meet its five-year remind the hon. Gentleman that when he mentions housing supply that that brownfield site is being put another Member in a speech, it is a convention of the back rather than being brought to the front of the House that he lets that Member know. He may therefore queue. That is daft. find it appropriate to apologise to the Members he I can see the situation changing only if planning mentioned, if he had not given them due notice, and let inspectors, in calculating the five-year housing supply, them know what he said about them. give credit in housing numbers for brownfield sites when local authorities can demonstrate that they are Tom Blenkinsop: Thank you for your time, Mr Gray. I undertaking sustained and credible work to make a informed the two hon. Members and I am fully aware of brownfield site available in the market. Otherwise, given the rule. how the five-year housing supply is working at present, brownfield will be put to the end of the queue rather Mr James Gray (in the Chair): I am grateful—well than being brought to the beginning of the queue. As I done. said, that is daft. My third point relates to neighbourhood plans. All of us understood that, with the new national planning 10.1 am policy framework, neighbourhood plans and localism Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Here we are again. were going to be really important, but neighbourhood I will try to be as brief as possible, and I will put the full plans have to clear two hurdles. First, they have to be text of what I had intended to say on my website— consistent with the local plan, and secondly, at present tonybaldry.co.uk. I am sure that constituents and right the community has to complete its neighbourhood plan hon. and hon. colleagues will read the text in full, until such a point as is agreed by a local referendum. because I want to make three succinct—I hope—points Many of the communities that have started neighbourhood in supporting and endorsing what my hon. Friend the plans carry them out diligently and earnestly, but they Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) said. are unlikely to complete them within a year or 18 months, by which time I suspect that a large number of them will The first is on the five-year housing supply, which will be redundant. be a requirement—not only when there are approved local plans, but until 2031. At any point between now A classic example involves the community in Deddington, and 2031, developers will be able to come forward and a village in my constituency. People there are busily say to a local authority, “At this moment, you haven’t undertaking a neighbourhood plan, entirely consistent got a sustainable five-year housing supply, so we are with the provisions set out by the Government. A entitled to build wherever we want within your district”. landowner and developer come along and put in a planning application to build up to 85 houses on the At present, there is no agreement on the methodology edge of the community, which is refused by the local used by planning inspectors to determine the five-year authority but allowed on appeal. Under the agreed housing supply. Two distinct methodologies seem to be local plan, because of what is happening with most of used by planning inspectors. Different methodologies Cherwell’s new housing—we have planned for nearly are used in different cases. One is now referred to in 17,000 houses in our agreed local plan between now and planning shorthand as the “Liverpool” method of 2031, so we are hardly not stepping up to the plate to calculation, and the other as “Sedgefield”. meet housing requirements—Deddington is due to take In a recent decision in a planning appeal in my something like 80 new houses to the end of the survey constituency at Deddington, the planning inspector period in 2031. However, the location of up to 85 has calculated housing supply locally on what could even be already been decided—not by the local community, but described as a third method and a variation of “Sedgefield”; on the basis of whoever happened to get their planning it might be described as “Sedgefield-lite”. It is simply application in first. With respect, that is not neighbourhood not good public policy for local councillors, chief planning planning. It is not a plan-led system; it is a system of officers and others not to know what methodology a first come, first served. planning inspector will adopt in calculating whether a If a local planning authority has submitted an agreed local planning authority has met its five-year housing local plan and if neighbourhoods are carrying out a supply. Ministers have to make clear and unambiguous neighbourhood plan consistent with the rules set out by the methodology that they expect planning Ministers the Government, in a timely and proportionate manner, and everyone else to use in calculating the five-year I suggest that any planning application that will effectively housing supply. pre-empt the neighbourhood plan should be dismissed My second point is about brownfield sites. It has been on grounds of prematurity, in that it would effectively an article of faith in the planning system, quite rightly, rob local communities of the opportunity to determine that one should bring forward brownfield sites first, but their future. Thank you, Mr Gray. If any colleagues if local authorities are so keen and need to have their would like the full text of what I was going to say, they five-year housing supply, they will bring forward sites should please refer to my website. 87WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 88WH

10.6 am always the most popular thing to say, but I just ask generally what encouragement the Minister is giving for Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): good design. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) on securing today’s debate. I I believe that the Minister has commented on how we would like—in a timely fashion, obviously—to reinforce could approach the problem of planning permissions some points that he made. being given but not implemented. I would like him to We have a dilemma. We all believe in local decision comment on what more he should be doing, because the making. Nobody could have been more pleased than public need confidence that what land is coming forward me when the regional spatial strategy was abolished and is not just the easiest picking when there are outstanding we lost our proposed new town, which had not been planning permissions that could be implemented. supported by any democratically elected person. That was good. Like the Minister, I want a planning system Mr James Gray (in the Chair): It gives me great pleasure that will play its role in contributing to providing our to call someone who has so often called me to speak— much-needed homes. At the moment, things are clearly Mr Nigel Evans. not working together and at the right pace. Neighbourhood plans sound so good; we hear 10.11 am about the examples that have gone to referendum—the great success of Thame and others. The number of Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind): Thank you, neighbourhood plans sounds good, but I suspect that it Mr Gray.It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. represents a tiny proportion of what is needed. I believe I say to my hon. Friend the Minister that if he is that there needs to be more support, although I accept under any illusion or delusion that the planning system that the Government are supporting the process, because is working well, all he needs to do is listen to the hon. it is such an important way forward. I do not think that Members who are speaking here today. This is rather a we should lose sight of that on the Government side, large turnout for Westminster Hall. Hon. Members are because it was a great innovation. talking about their anxieties and frustrations and the I agree with my hon. Friend that the emerging local fact that their constituencies are under siege. I certainly plan has to have more material weight in the inspectors’ feel that myself, because the Ribble Valley is under considerations. I do not know how that can be achieved, siege. but in the past an emerging plan certainly had weight. I was first elected in 1992. I said to my executive that I Perhaps developers are finding new ways of getting hoped that after my days in the House, when I handed around things. The Government must concede the point, the Ribble Valley over to my lucky successor, it would given the number of places that do not have fully be in better shape, or at least in no worse shape, than adopted plans as such, and support those areas that do when I became its Member of Parliament. I was doing not have fully adopted plans. rather well until 2010, when the planning system started I have mentioned housing projections to the Minister. to change. We in the Ribble Valley are under siege. I feel that our local residents have to be able to understand There are not as many villages in my area as in that of where the local projections have come from and why the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), they are there, at the scale they are at. It would then be but there are many wonderful, lovely villages and towns, easier to get a community buy-in. including Clitheroe, the main market town. The whole I want to touch on the need for authorities to co-operate, area is under siege. We do not have our core strategy in because I am not convinced that they are doing so very place, and it seems as if that is a green light to every well at the moment. My hon. Friend the Member for speculative developer to put in a planning application, Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) likes to make the point with no protection for the local authority or for the that Cheltenham is very constrained, in terms of where people themselves. new development would be suitable. My constituency is very constrained because of protected heathland. We Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does have these dilemmas. There is a duty to co-operate, but I the hon. Gentleman accept that a development in a think we need to look more at how local authorities can small village area can turn communities into strangers? form natural partnerships and work together to meet One developer can come in for a vast site in a small housing and other infrastructure needs. village area that will more than double the number of I shall briefly touch on rural exception sites, which I properties. That is not good for communities. have raised with the Minister. I was a big fan of rural exception sites until last week, I think it was. In my Mr Evans: I agree with every word that my hon. constituency, one has come in for 35 homes. There is a Friend has just said. Barrow in my constituency is a recently adopted plan in that part of the constituency. perfect example of a village where planning applications The parish is working up its neighbourhood plan, but have gone in that would more than double its size. The that site has not been consulted on at all. It seems people are up in arms against that. I hope that the totally wrong that that could come in without a proper public will get protection against that application, which round of community interaction. It may well result in I think is barmy. houses at the end of the day, but I am finding it difficult There are a number of other areas. Clitheroe is the to see how it fits with our new planning framework. largest town; applications have gone in all over the place I also want to touch on good design. There are there, and many have been granted on appeal. Somebody instances in which we should accept that higher density did suggest getting rid of the inspector, or the inspectorate. can be good design and meet some of our objectives. I That would make me smile more than anything else, have to use those words carefully, because that is not frankly. 89WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 90WH

The frustration for many of my local councillors is thank goodness. People want to live there for a certain that they go out and tell the people what they will do reason. I know what the Minister is talking about when when they are elected; the people tell their councillors he says that people deserve the right to have a roof over what they want when planning applications go in; and their heads. Everyone deserves a home; I agree with him the councillor stands up for them and says, “No, we on that, but we need to look at areas that neighbour don’t want to see 1,000 houses in Clitheroe”. However, places such as the Ribble Valley—such as Burnley, the decision is then overturned or, as in this particular Preston, Pendle and Hyndburn—and see what we can case, the local authority gets the feeling that if it did do to regenerate some of the run-down areas there. We turn the application down, it would go to appeal, cost it need to ensure that homes that are run-down are made a lot of money to defend its position and the application available to people in those areas and that they do not would then be allowed. In many cases, local authorities have to flee those areas and live somewhere else. are allowing certain applications when their hearts tell I will finish shortly because I know that many other them that they should not. hon. Members want to speak, but I just want to say this. I believe that we ought to have a planning system that is Andrew Bingham: Does my hon. Friend agree that the based on consent—the consent of the local people. I scenario that he eloquently lays out and which I have finish by referring not just to housing but to wind seen in my High Peak constituency is damaging people’s turbines. When fairly well everybody in a local area is faith in democracy across the board? They see their saying no to three wind turbines in a suburban area and elected representative making one decision and an unelected the council turns the application down because it has representative overturning it. listened to what the local people say, but it then goes to the inspectorate and the inspectorate passes it, there Mr Evans: I totally agree. It means frustration on the must be something wrong in the system because we are part of not only the people, but the councillors. They not listening to the people. Minister, listen to the people. shrug their shoulders and say, “Well, what is the worth of being a local authority councillor if we are making 10.18 am these decisions on behalf of the public and then they are overturned?” Or, even worse, the local authority is Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve told, “Listen, you’d better accept this planning application. under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate Otherwise, it’s going to cost you a lot of money and you my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome will lose.” (Mr Heath) on securing this very important debate. Its importance is demonstrated by the number of hon. Steve Baker: My hon. Friend has made the point with Members who have turned up. I know that there are great clarity and passion, but I cannot forbear from many who could not attend who would have attended saying that those of us who stood for election on the otherwise. Conservative manifesto stood on a platform of a radical The primary issue being debated is housing projections decentralisation of power—an invitation to the people in our areas. Many of the issues that have been described to join the Government of Britain. I think that he will apply to my own area in Cornwall. The Isles of Scilly agree with me that those of us who stood on that are rather different: it is a very protected environment platform with enthusiasm are rather disappointed that and one where the projections and pressures are not the it has come to this. same. I fear that the debate is being characterised, or rather Mr Evans: More than disappointed. I used to use a could be characterised from the Whitehall and ministerial counter-argument against those in my constituency who perspective, in a certain way. I fear that what people are said, “This is a disaster. This is what is going to happen hearing is the rather complacent and self-satisfied voice if the Localism Bill goes through.” I said, “No, localism of the contentedly housed seeking to deny opportunities will give power back to the local authorities.” Now, for the unhoused or the inadequately housed—in other when we look at what has happened, it seems as if there words, the nimby argument. has been some Orwellian double-speak. Localism sounds The view is that the role of Government, through as if it is giving power back to the local people when in their policies and the inspectorate, is to ensure that essence it has not done that at all—quite the contrary. If there is balance in the system and that that group of people want to build houses, localism is fine. If people people are seeking to resist simply from the perspective want to go against the building of the houses, localism of wanting to protect their own property values, scenery does not help them one jot. and lifestyle—the drawbridge mentality, which often I was elected as a Conservative. I am a Conservative; applies to people living in a rural setting. The view is just as the name on the tin suggests, I want to conserve—I that the role of this system is to stand up against those want to conserve what is best in our area. The position kinds of pressures. That is a rather simplistic view of is as my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim how the system operates in an area such as mine. (Dr McCrea) said. If people in the Ribble Valley want Cornwall is not a nimby place. The housing stock has to live in Manchester, that is fine—they can go and live more than doubled in the past 40 years, but local there. What we do not want is Manchester coming to us. people’s housing problems have significantly worsened We do not want to see these towns growing at such a over that period. rate that we do not even recognise them. We cannot be accused of being nimbys, but successive The Ribble Valley is one of the nicest places to live in Governments’ policies have been counter-productive the whole country; it is one of the jewels. I say that it is for the region. They have ensured that projections are like the Lake district without the lakes—even with the maintained, but those projections have been utterly rain we have been having, we still do not have the lakes, unsophisticated. Many of the Office for National Statistics 91WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 92WH

[Andrew George] hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), who has in a nutshell articulated our dilemma in Cornwall. projections over the past 10 years have been significantly We have welcomed a lot of people into Cornwall; there undershot, and I believe that the ONS model for setting has been a lot of inward migration and a lot of house projections is rather flawed. When there is a high projected building, but we still have a chronic housing situation. figure, what happens—not only in the five-year supply, People who are born and bred in Cornwall, who work as my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and in our local economy and contribute a great deal to it, Frome has said, but in the system as a whole—is that cannot afford to live there. Because so many colleagues even in areas that have not been designated for housing want to contribute to this debate, I shall take the lead development, the hope value on all surrounding land from my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury becomes extremely high, because of the expectation (Sir Tony Baldry) and say that my speech will be on my that planning permission will be relatively easily obtained. website in its entirety. I associate myself very much with As a result, it becomes impossible to implement schemes the comments that he has made. to deliver affordable homes, which require low land With brevity in mind, I seek some simple assurances values. from the Minister. As my hon. Friend the Member for Such policies have a counter-productive impact. That St Ives has said, Cornwall council will meet next week sits against the aims of the exceptions policy and “Planning to attempt to agree its plan, and some specific assurances Policy Guidance 3”, which was established in the early from the Minister today would help the councillors in 1990s under the then Environment Secretary, Nicholas that process. Our councillors are being told by the Ridley. The principle behind that policy was absolutely planners that unless they accept a projected housing correct. If a strict and controlling system that protects target based on what Cornwall has delivered over the the local community is established and a genuine exception, past 10 years, the planning inspector simply will not which follows the policy, is granted, it is possible to agree the plan. To help the plan-making process, I urged achieve low land values and deliver affordable homes in Cornwall council to undertake a local needs assessment, rural areas. The setting of high projections will never which it has done. That assessment looked at the number achieve that. of homes that are needed in Cornwall for those who The exception described by my hon. Friend the Member currently do not have the right type of genuinely affordable for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) is housing, and the number needed to support the growing clearly not a proper exception. An exception would businesses in Cornwall. The local needs assessment have to be brought through with the support of parish demonstrated that Cornwall has been over-delivering council housing associations and others, and the necessity properties at a rate of up to 1,000 a year, and that we for it would have to be clearly demonstrated by a need a much smaller number in order to meet our community needs assessment. My hon. Friend’s example obligations and our desire to provide the right sorts of is a rather curious one. Over the past few years in homes and achieve sustainable growth. Cornwall, we have seen a lot more housing—we are the Cornwall councillors are being told that the good second or third-fastest growing place in the United evidence base that has been gathered in that local needs Kingdom—but housing problems have soared. In the assessment cannot be used, or the planning inspectors Penzance area, rough sleeping and homelessness is second, will throw out the resulting plan. I seek an absolute proportionately, to London, so the policy has clearly assurance that if Cornwall councillors, when they meet failed. next week, can provide an adequate evidence base that The Government must stop imposing projected figures supports the building of a certain number of homes on Cornwall. Cornwall council will have a debate next based on realistic population growth and observed week in which it will say that if it does not accept the household composition rates, the planning inspector ONS projected figure, that figure will be imposed on the will accept that number. Any reassuring words that the council. That is not a basis on which Cornwall can Minister can give about the methodology that councillors establish a plan to meet local housing need. Meeting the can use in making their decision next week would be desperate need for affordable homes, not accepting most welcome, because we desperately need to agree the projections that divert us from achieving that aim, is plan. There has been a huge amount of consultation ultimately what matters. Otherwise, we end up with and very good work is going on in neighbourhood more second homes, more unoccupied property, more planning, but that plan has to be agreed. investment property and more retirement homes. Those As so many other hon. Members have described sectors have certainly grown in Cornwall, while today, a developers’ free-for-all is going on in Cornwall opportunities for the local population to find adequate and a huge number of speculative planning applications housing have significantly decreased. are being made. We need to use the tools that the I hope that the Government will recognise that the Government have laid out in a new plan-making process issue is sophisticated and difficult, and that they will to ensure that we have development in Cornwall, but give local authorities the power to meet local housing that it is sustainable and fits in with our unique environment. need rather than forcing on them thousands of houses Our key industries are tourism, farming, fishing and that will not help to meet that need. food production. Only yesterday the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs quite rightly 10.24 am pointed out how much more food we need to produce in our own country, and how food security will become an Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I increasing issue. Those are key industries for Cornwall, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and we can make a key contribution to the nation if and Frome (Mr Heath) on securing this timely debate. councillors are given the tools to balance the need for It is a great pleasure to follow a fellow Cornish MP, my housing with the need for a sustainable environment. 93WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 94WH

10.29 am became live at the end of last March, the number of days between a plan being submitted and being found Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I would to be sound has increased from nine months on average— like to add my congratulations to the hon. Member for a normal human pregnancy—to 14 months. There is a Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) on securing the debate material difference: the time period is not as long as an so early in the year. It is a pleasure to serve under your elephant’s pregnancy yet, but it is certainly increasing—the chairmanship, Mr Gray. I declare an interest as a home size of the mammal is going up. owner in the Malvern Hills district, which has recently been found to be the second best place to live in the My first question to the Minister is whether the midlands, but I think it was severely underrated in that delay—the increase in the time between the plan being survey. It is a wonderful place to live. submitted and having it found to be sound—is due to a national shortage of planning inspectors. My neighbour I have had the pleasure of attending two debates on and newly knighted colleague, the hon. Member for the south Worcestershire development plan in this Chamber Mid Worcestershire (Sir Peter Luff), tabled some in the past few months—one on 24 October and one on parliamentary questions at the end of last year. He was 20 November—so I do not want to talk too much about told that 80 plans are in the process of inspection across my local area, but about national planning issues. I have the country, which, in the Department’s view, will take some questions for the Minister. I agree with the many 25 full-time equivalent planning inspectors, and it is colleagues who said that we are in a much better place, currently recruiting additional inspectors. I would like as far as planning is concerned, than we were when we an update from the Minister on the recruitment of had the top-down regional spatial strategies so favoured those additional inspectors. by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop). Secondly, is the delay since the NPPF became active a deliberate strategy? Does the Minister believe that it is I completely agree with other colleagues who said encouraging more home building? I submit that that is a how important home building is in our areas and how mistaken view. It would be helpful if we heard whether important it is for the economy, which is beginning to he had noticed any difference between the number of show signs of recovering from the dreadful recession we new homes bonuses paid out in local council areas that had under the Labour Government. I know how keen have an adopted plan and the number paid out in those the Minister is to see the promising increase in the rate areas that do not. Is there a statistical difference in the of home building continue, and I have some suggestions rate of housing delivery? Housing delivery will speed up as to how we could speed up housing development by and the arguments about planning will slow down if a clarifying the guidance to the planning inspector. It is plan is given significant weight in the planning process. my view that the Planning Inspectorate is holding up growth in many areas, and we have heard many examples I conclude by saying that my thesis is the same as that of that today. of many hon. Members here today. The goal of the Minister, the Chancellor, the Prime Minister and indeed In my area, we are a bit further on than the hon. the country of delivering more homes and building Member for Somerton and Frome: our local plan was local democracy into the heart of that process will be agreed by the councils over a year ago—as far in the better achieved if the Minister told his inspectors to past as December 2012. It was then submitted to the move immediately to give almost full weight in the planning inspector in May 2013 and it took him until planning process to plans that have been submitted and 28 October to give his interim thoughts on stage 1 of democratically agreed. the inspection. That is a total of five months. He found that the duty to co-operate was being met and he had 10.36 am many good things to say about the plan, but he still wants further information and has rejected all seven Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is a great pleasure methodologies presented to him for housing projections. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I give my We are playing a game of “pin the tail on the donkey” in hearty congratulations to our hon. Friend the Member the dark with the planning inspector and guessing what for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) on securing a sort of housing numbers he wants to see. He has told us worthwhile opportunity to set out our thoughts on that the next stage of part 1 will start on 10 March planning. 2014—a delay, with five months between that date and The essence of the debate is that increasingly relying the continuation of stage 1. He has also written to me to on an inspection regime to sort out problems is not say that he cannot give a time scale at this point for localism, but quite the reverse. That is the cornerstone stage 2. of most Members’ contributions today. Stroud district I wanted to see how long our process took compared council is busily preparing its local plan, but it is of with what hon. Members had seen around the country. course a Labour-led administration, which is bound to There is a good spreadsheet on the Department for hamper progress, and it has a committee system, which Communities and Local Government website of the is not ideal. 350-odd local plans currently in different stages of Delays have left many communities spinning in the development. It categorises them by whether a council wind, as gusts of developers come along and make has published its local plan, submitted its plan, whether proposals here, there and everywhere. I have been the the plan has been found to be sound and whether the recipient of many messages from communities saying, plan has been adopted. I thought it would be helpful to “What are you going to do to protect the integrity of see how long the process takes. In about half the cases, our area while we don’t have a local plan?” I reiterate the plan has been fully adopted. It is interesting to note the point made by my hon. Friend and others: while that the time between a plan being submitted and being emerging local plans are still being formulated, we must found to be sound has increased substantially in the give them more prominence in inspection considerations. past year. Since the national planning policy framework That matters because if we are talking about localism 95WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 96WH

[Neil Carmichael] with local planning decisions when there is not a local plan in place. There was some dispute among Members and giving local people a voice, we must be bold enough about whether there was a need for additional housing to do it. We must give emerging local plans some in rural areas, and that has been reflected to a degree in consideration. some of the contributions today. The same logic, incidentally, applies to neighbourhood I want to put on the record that I agree with some of planning. When we go around our patches, as I do, the issues raised by the hon. Member for Somerton and encouraging neighbourhood plans, the response heard Frome, particularly those about technical starts; land is, “Well, that won’t be sufficient to stop what’s being banking; land supply; the need to get better quality into proposed.” That is absolutely true unless or until such our house building system; the need to strengthen plans are given recognition in the planning process, too. brownfield policy further; and how we take more notice If a community is concerned about what will happen to of neighbourhood planning. I concur with all those it, a neighbourhood plan is a good way to do something, points and will talk about them in more detail in a but we must give that plan some traction. We should minute or two. not only think about the local plan as a whole, but We know that we need more housing, including in consider emerging neighbourhood plans. They are a rural areas. I shall not rehearse again all the figures that clear illustration of what communities are thinking, if I gave last time. Suffice it to say that, to secure a typical they are bold enough and sensible enough to have one. mortgage, a rural resident needs to earn £66,000. With Many hon. Members have talked about housing numbers. the average rural income standing at just over £20,000, It is important to bring together two issues. The first is there clearly is a problem with affordability, partly as a co-operation among councils. They must talk to each result of insufficient supply. other and understand the scope and content of their plans and their relationship to each other’s plans. That The situation in rural areas is part of a wider problem. is essential. Secondly, this is not just about housing For decades, under successive Governments, house building numbers, but about the economic conditions that prevail has stayed low relative to demand. Private house building in an area. We need planning authorities to take much completions in England have been relatively static for more account of the economic factors, which should more than 30 years, averaging about 130,000 per annum. have a bearing on housing numbers. The Minister needs That is below the peak average of 180,000 per annum in to express that clearly, so that councils have to consider the 1960s. There is an ever-growing gap between supply the economic issues, as well as the obvious question of and demand, which means that millions of hard-working housing numbers. people are increasingly priced out of buying their own home. Time is obviously short, so I shall finish by saying that we want to see local communities planning and we Recent data from Glenigan show that although approvals want to see more houses. We need to understand the for new housing are improving, they are not yet at the value that more houses can bring to local communities levels recorded for 2007, and are not high enough to which need to feel involved and have ownership of the deliver the output of about 200,000 houses per year that developments. That is another essential point that needs most sensible commentators suggest we need to meet to be transmitted to local authorities. In short, we do demand, so we must address the housing shortage. not want an inspection-led regime, because that is not The Government are right—I want to emphasise localism; it is effectively the nationalisation of planning. this—to allow housing need to be objectively measured We want the reverse, and we want to be able to say to locally as outlined in the NPPF, but as the National local authorities, “Those of you that are doing something, Housing Federation has stated in its briefing for today’s do it well and be respected.” debate, more could be done to clarify the methodology used. Indeed, it appeared to back Labour’s call that we need a common methodology to be applied across all 10.40 am local authorities to ensure a consistency of approach. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): That might help to address some of the concerns raised It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, by Members this morning. Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Somerton I also agree with other Members who have contributed and Frome (Mr Heath) on securing this debate. He has today that development sites need to be identified by very eloquently raised important constituency issues local communities, with a stronger emphasis on this morning, and I shall return to the specifics of his neighbourhood planning and with consent at the heart speech in a minute or two. of the planning system. I think that that can be helped I hope that Government Members and others will in a number of ways. I have paid tribute to the Minister forgive me for not mentioning them individually; there before for his support for neighbourhood planning; he are rather a lot of them. Everyone spoke earnestly and has the Opposition’s support. We want him to think lucidly on behalf of their constituencies. I particularly about how neighbourhood planning can be strengthened thank my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough and how we can better integrate neighbourhood planning South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) for helping into the local plan-making system. me to feel a little less lonely on the Opposition side and I also applaud the precedence that the Government for raising important issues that affect his area. He have given to local plans in the determination of planning highlighted inconsistencies in the Government’s approach applications, but, as many hon. Members have said this to planning at the moment. morning, the process of getting them adopted is still too This debate follows one on a broadly similar topic. slow, with only 55% of authorities having an adopted Lots of Government Members attended that debate a local plan. I know that 76% of councils have published few months ago in October. It was about what happens a plan, but there are still not enough of them in place. 97WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 98WH

In the meantime, we have a situation in which, as many First, I absolutely echo the condolences that the hon. hon. Members have mentioned today, the Planning Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) Inspectorate, and in some instances local authorities, has just extended to the family of Paul Goggins. I had are approving inappropriate schemes in the absence of a not understood that he had died, and it is a very sad local plan, or they are not taking enough note of a local day. He was a gentleman who commanded respect and plan. affection across the House. A few months ago when we debated the issue, the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton Minister had nothing much to say about how he would and Frome (Mr Heath) on securing this debate, which remedy the situation. I hope he has stronger words of has become something of a “Groundhog Day”experience comfort for us today. It is clearly an issue that relates to for me. I am absolutely sure that this is not the last time many areas and it is causing anxiety locally. Worryingly, that I will have this experience, although whether I will the Local Government Association has said that local end up with Andie MacDowell at the end of the movie decisions taken in line with emerging local plans are is open to question. being overturned by the Planning Inspectorate. I agree I welcomed many of the questions that my hon. with it and others who have said that this will undermine Friend asked, but I must object very strongly to how he trust in the planning system and result in development opened his speech. He seemed to imply that I was not a that does not reflect the needs of local communities. supporter of maintaining agricultural land for farming. That is the opposite of what we all want. I heard some bellows from up above, where my recently The LGA also points out, helpfully, that it is not departed father, a sheep farmer in Devon, and my planning that is the barrier to growth. Councils are rather-longer-ago departed grandfathers, farmers in the approving 89% of all planning applications, and planning Mendips and in Devon respectively, were outraged at permissions are up 31% on 2012. Indeed, planning the implication that I am anything other than a passionate approvals are at a 10-year high, so it should be possible supporter of farming. to have the housing we need and to reject inappropriate development as defined locally at the same time. Otherwise, the current system risks breeding further resentment Mr Heath: I am very pleased to hear that. I just seem towards development. Instead, we should be supporting to remember that the hon. Gentleman once called a planning system that more readily favours development agricultural land “boring”. based on consent. The issue is important for the Minister, because the Nick Boles: My hon. Friend is such an experienced NPPF states clearly that weight should be given to Member that I am surprised he believes what he reads in emerging local plans, but, in practice, this appears to be the newspapers. being ignored by PINS. Members have this morning In the very short time available to me, I will try to called for greater guidance to be given to the Planning cover some of the main issues raised this morning, Inspectorate. chiefly by my hon. Friend but also by other hon. Members. That means that I will not be able to answer every Andrew George: Will the hon. Lady give way? question. In particular, I would like to write to my hon. Roberta Blackman-Woods: Forgive me, but I am terribly Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett short of time. Baldwin) about the questions that she put about the Planning Inspectorate. I will copy in everybody in The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome made an Westminster Hall today with the answers, because they excellent point: the issue is not simply about housing were very good questions but technical ones, and I numbers. It is about employment, proper infrastructure would like to come back to her specifically on them. and leisure. We need to talk not only about housing numbers, but about building communities. This is an The first issue is housing projections. What is the role issue that is often not considered strongly enough by the of figures from the Office for National Statistics in Planning Inspectorate. Again, I want to emphasise the supporting housing projections? The fundamental situation need to do something about quality and about protecting is that, just as we expect local authorities to make plans our ancient woodlands. Perhaps the Minister will say to meet their needs for schools and for social care, we something about that. It is an added concern for us all expect in the national planning policy framework that after the past week. What is the Minister going to do to local authorities will make plans to meet their housing speed up the system for getting local plans approved? needs. Those plans have to be evidence-based. Of course, That is clearly the key to getting the development that we cannot entirely reject ONS population projections, we want. because the ONS is our national statistics body and Before I sit down, I should say that while we have those projections are the best that we have, although I been having this debate we have all learned about the entirely understand why they are often wrong and flawed, very sad death of our colleague, Paul Goggins. I am as all projections necessarily are. sure that all Members will join me in sending our What I have said, however, does not mean that those deepest condolences to his family and friends. ONS projections are the last word. It is absolutely open to any authority—Cornwall council will certainly have Hon. Members: Hear, hear! this opportunity—to look at the actual figures achieved in the past, relate them back to the projections that were 10.50 pm in place then and then say why it thinks that projections The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for are not the last word and that different numbers have an Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): Thank evidence base. It is absolutely open to authorities to do you, Mr Gray, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to that, but their numbers must be based on evidence; they serve under your chairmanship. cannot be based on assertion alone. Authorities must 99WH Planning Reform8 JANUARY 2014 Planning Reform 100WH

[Nick Boles] who both had very serious concerns about this process, to meet the chief planner to discuss in detail how it will use evidence and that evidence will be challenged in an work. examination by developers and others, so it needs to be pretty robust. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): I did not get the opportunity to speak; I will put my speech on I will now address the subject of the five-year land the website. The Minister can go further than issuing supply and particularly the question put by my hon. draft guidance and actually amend the NPPF, because Friend about this rather vexed question—I cannot believe all is not lost. He does not have to come back to that we are all getting into this business whereby we are Westminster Hall and have “Groundhog Day”. He can all experts on Sedgefield and Liverpool, not as places, also take into account the cumulative effects of development football teams or constituencies, but as methods of within the NPPF, at paragraphs 186 and 187, to close a calculating land supply. loophole that he has been hearing about today; he has What “Sedgefield” and “Liverpool” simply refer to is also heard about the pain that that loophole has caused. a particular question. If an area has had an under-delivery I also have other suggestions that I will write to him of housing in the past, how quickly—in the area’s new about. plan—should it catch up on that under-delivery? Rather than getting into the whole question of, “Is it Liverpool Nick Boles: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. and is it Sedgefield?”, which will mean precisely nothing We are not looking to change the NPPF, because after to our constituents, I will just read out what the draft such a dramatic change in the planning system, stability guidance, which we hope to finalise in a very few weeks, has an enormous value. says about this issue: However, what we are looking to do in the draft “Local planning authorities should aim to deal with the under- guidance, which we hope to confirm shortly, is to make supply within the first five years of the plan period where possible.” it clear that it is sometimes reasonable—in exceptional Now, some things are not possible; some things will circumstances, but exceptions happen all the time—to conflict with other sustainability policies that are very refuse a planning application. That is the case if, one, important in the NPPF. However, it is not unreasonable the application is so substantial that it runs the risk of to expect that, where past performance has undershot undermining the plan to which it is being referred, and, need, if it is possible we should try to catch it up at the two, where a local plan has been submitted for beginning of the plan and not during the full 15-year examination—it has not yet passed examination, but life of the plan. has been submitted. A refusal can also happen in the case of a neighbourhood plan, when it has entered into what is called the local authority publicity period; it has Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) completed consultation but it has not yet gone to (Con): I thank the Minister for giving way on that referendum or, indeed, to examination. Before the plans specific point. Of course, by catching up quickly in the have been examined, they will have material weight and plan, my local authority—Test Valley borough council— they can, in exceptional circumstances, be used just on faces a situation where in years six to 15 it is unable to the basis of prematurity to refuse an application, if the include sites such as windfall sites, which we know will application is so substantial that it could completely inevitably come forward. Does the Minister have any knock the legs out from that emerging plan. plans to allow my local authority to include windfall sites again, or are such sites off the agenda for ever? I hope that I have reassured hon. Members. We have listened very carefully to the concerns that have been Nick Boles: I cannot comment on any particular expressed. As I say, we have met other Members who plan, but windfall sites absolutely can form part of a have had concerns about this issue and we have done plan. Where an authority can evidence that it has had a our utmost to listen to them, and to try to reflect those consistent delivery of housing through windfall sites in concerns. the past, and it is reasonable to expect that there will I simply point out that that is not entirely within our continue to be such a delivery of housing through gift, because, much as I understand how my colleagues windfall sites, it is absolutely reasonable to say that part from all parts of the House would dearly love to abolish of its planned projections assumes a level of windfall the Planning Inspectorate, I can tell them where these site delivery. There is nothing in the policy to prevent things would end up if we abolished it—they would end that. up in court. It would cost their local authorities a lot more money to fight these things in court than it does to I will move, very briefly, to the question of the weight fight them either through an examination or in an of emerging plans. The hon. Member for City of Durham appeal with the Planning Inspectorate. Planning inspectors was absolutely right to say that it was a vexed issue in are a better solution for local councils and local communities the last debate that we had on this subject. We are trying than the available alternative in a system where the rule to make this issue clearer in the draft guidance and of law enables people to challenge Government decisions although the consultation has closed on that draft whenever they like. guidance, as far as I am concerned consultation never closes. In the minute or so I have left to me, I will address the very important point that my hon. Friend the Member If hon. Members would like to look at that draft for Somerton and Frome made about design. To reassure guidance, they should refer to the Department’s website. him, hopefully, I will read the draft guidance about the I would be very happy to take any comments or concerns very point that he made: from them. We have also invited my right hon. Friend “Development should seek to promote character in townscape the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) and landscape by responding to and reinforcing locally distinctive and the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, my hon. patterns of development and culture, while not preventing or Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), discouraging appropriate innovation.” 101WH Planning Reform 8 JANUARY 2014 102WH

Local vernacular is critical to making people feel that Joint Committee on Vaccination and development is a friend, and is actually helping and Immunisation supporting communities rather than undermining, challenging or alienating them. It is something that matters a great deal to me. I believe that if we built more 11 am beautiful houses in more beautiful places, we would build more houses, and ultimately that is what we all Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): It is want to achieve. a pleasure to be here today under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I am grateful to Mr Speaker for granting this Mr James Gray (in the Chair): I thank the 11 hon. debate on the work of the Joint Committee on Vaccination Members who spoke and the eight who intervened. Will and Immunisation. I requested this debate following the they please now leave the Chamber swiftly and quietly? JCVI’s decision on the 2 October 2013 to undertake I congratulate the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders further work on key issues surrounding the human Green (Mike Freer), who nobly acted as Parliamentary papillomavirus, or HPV, vaccination programme. I Private Secretary in the previous debate and will now understand that some colleagues may wish to comment introduce his own debate. on other aspects of the JCVI’s work. I want to focus particularly on the Committee’s decision to consider—I use its word—“urgently” vaccinating men who have sex with men, on attendance at sexual health services, and adolescent males. I intend to focus my remarks on that work now being undertaken with regard to the HPV vaccination programme, specifically in terms of exposure to HPV-related cancers, which are increasing in boys who have sex with females and the MSM community. The decision of the JCVI to prioritise consideration of vaccinating MSM is noteworthy, not least because the minutes of its October meeting accept that a full economic model might not be necessary where sexual health clinicians can develop independent guidelines. Historically, the JCVI has often rejected vaccination of adolescent boys and MSM on economic grounds, so it is a major step forward for it to say that heath clinicians with expertise—particularly at sexual health clinics—can take such a decision on clinical grounds. That is welcome. It is important—I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Minister will need to ensure it—that any decision on extending vaccinations is clinically and financially sound. I do not seek to undermine that decision. I wish to stress the economic benefits of extending the vaccination swiftly, rather than stress other issues of equality, which I raised in an Adjournment debate last year.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing this important health matter to Westminster Hall for consideration. There have been significant positive results from vaccinating women and girls for HPV, so clearly there is an advantage shown in doing that. That consolidates the hon. Gentleman’s request for the same vaccination to take place in men and boys as well. Does he agree that the same should happen with regard to men as has happened for women and girls?

Mike Freer: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point that repeats some of the discussion we had in last year’s Adjournment debate. The success of the vaccination programme among girls has had a dramatic impact on HPV-related cancers among women. However, the flaw was that it assumed herd immunity for boys who were having sex either with girls or within the herd. But of course, not all boys have sex with girls: some—shock, horror!—have sex with other boys, and not all boys have sex within the herd. Increasingly, in a global economy, and particularly in Europe where the vaccination programme is not the same, adolescent boys in this country are exposed to women who have not been vaccinated. It is important to close the loophole for 103WH Joint Committee on Vaccination and 8 JANUARY 2014 Joint Committee on Vaccination and 104WH Immunisation Immunisation [Mike Freer] sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will take that point away and consider whether the two organisations adolescent boys having sex with unvaccinated girls and could share best practice. Clearly, as new drugs come those having sex with unvaccinated boys, who, obviously, on the market and new issues arise, we must ensure grow to be unvaccinated men. that the health advisers are able to respond quickly to If the JCVI has agreed to urgently review the economic changes. case for extending the vaccination programme, why is The key point I was making is that if we miss the this debate needed? Before I discuss that, it is worth procurement window, and if we have to wait four more reminding ourselves what health problems we are trying years, boys and the MSM community would be to prevent. I recall, during the Adjournment debate, unnecessarily exposed to HPV-related cancers. There is seeing the duty Whip sink ever further on the Bench as not just a personal cost to those who become exposed to we discussed certain topics and cancers. This is not a HPV-related cancers: the NHS would be exposed to pleasant subject, but I would rather discuss an unpleasant treatment costs that might be mitigated or avoided if we subject than have to deal with it our hospitals. get the JCVI to report in time for the procurement Nine out of 10 cases of genital warts are HPV-related; round later this year. oral-related HPV infections—men are six times more If we look at the costs, we can start to see the scale of likely than women to have oral infections—increase the the savings. To put that into perspective, the three-dose risk of cancers of the mouth, throat, neck and head HPV vaccination programme currently costs some cancers; and there are HPV-related penile and anal £260. I understand that the JCVI is also considering cancers: HPV is associated with 80% to 85% of anal whether that may be reduced to a two-dose vaccination, cancer in men. In 2009, just after the HPV vaccination which would reduce the outlay. Let us compare that programme started, there were more than 6,500 cases of with the £13,000 cost per patient of treating anal cancer, these cancers, with 47% of penile cancer and 16% of the £11,500 cost per patient of treating penile cancer, head and neck cancers thought to be HPV-related. The the £15,000 cost per patient of treating oropharyngeal latest incidence data show that in 2010 there were cancer, or the £13,600 cost per patient of treating vulvar 437 incidences of anal cancer and 5,637 of oropharyngeal and vaginal cancer transmitted by an infected male. In cancer, 515 instances of penile cancer and 180,000 instances 2010, the total cost to the NHS of treating genital warts of genital warts. Rates of HPV-related cancers are on was £52.4 million. If we multiply those figures by four, the rise in the UK. Throat cancer has overtaken cervical we can see the clear economic benefits of bringing cancer as the leading HPV-related cancer. I am pleased forward the decision to coincide with the next procurement that the JCVI has accepted that there is an urgent need round. to review the clinical and economic case for extending the programme to adolescent boys and MSM. The clinical reasons and the economic benefits are evident, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister I should like to put on record my thanks to my hon. will confirm today that, at best, the JCVI will be able to Friend the Minister’s predecessor, my hon. Friend the report in time for the procurement round later this year Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry),for her support or, at worst, that any contract procured later this year in this matter and for facilitating a teleconference, which will have flexibility built in to allow the Minister and the she and I and representatives of the Terrence Higgins Department of Health to extend the vaccination programme Trust had with the Chairman of the JCVI, which I to adolescent boys and MSM at some point after the believe gave some impetus to this change of heart and report. the speeding up of the work by the JCVI. That was a significant breakthrough. The key point in this debate is that although the 11.12 am JCVI’s urgent report is due at some unspecified point later this year, the procurement of the next round of Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): It is a delight HPV vaccinations will commence in October or November to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray.I congratulate this year. I am concerned that if the JCVI does not my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders report in time and this procurement round is missed, we Green (Mike Freer) on securing this important debate. may have to wait four more years—I believe it is a I wish to change the subject and address meningitis B. four-year procurement round—before the HPV vaccination A vaccine is available, and the Minister and the Department programme is extended to adolescent boys and MSM, if have decided that it is not cost-effective. I wonder what that is the recommendation. costs they have taken into account. Was it the lifelong costs of looking after a child such as my constituent Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I Isabelle, who contracted meningitis B when she was congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this subject seven years old? Isabelle was given a 0.7% chance of to the House. I share his concerns. Is he also concerned survival. She survived, but she had to have both her that although the JCVI undoubtedly does some excellent arms and both her legs amputated. She is the most work, it does not share the flexibilities of the National amazing little girl. She is so bubbly, so bright and so Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, in terms of cheerful given what she has to deal with, but there is the its medical and health assessment processes? Would he cost to the NHS, the cost of education and the cost of welcome some movement there, which might in turn continuing care for the rest of her life—she is now help bring this vaccine forward more quickly? 10 years old. She has to have four sets of legs and two sets of arms, which change regularly and cost thousands Mike Freer: The hon. Lady makes a good point and of pounds each. She has to have two wheelchairs, one speaks, probably, with more knowledge than I have. If portable and one mechanical, because she cannot NICE is able to react more swiftly than the JCVI, I am walk far. 105WH Joint Committee on Vaccination and 8 JANUARY 2014 Joint Committee on Vaccination and 106WH Immunisation Immunisation Isabelle has to have continuing care in school. Someone that increased spending on immunisation does not result has to sit with her in classes because, clearly, there are in an overall decrease in the health of the population things that she cannot do. She cannot easily carry her because resources are diverted from more cost-effective books from class to class, for instance, and she will need health care interventions. We all recognise that those such care not just for the rest of her school and university decisions are not easy. life but for the rest of her working life, because she will My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire be limited in what she is able to do. makes a powerful case for the meningitis B vaccine, Isabelle is the most amazing child that I have ever which the JCVI is currently reconsidering. The updated come across. She has come through such terrible statement published on 25 October 2013 reflects the circumstances. Her family had to make the awful decision JCVI’s recognition of the burden and severity of that both her legs and both her arms had to be amputated. meningococcal meningitis and septicaemia in the UK No parent should have to make that decision, and no and the need to explore the potential for their prevention child should have to live with that consequence for the through immunisation. The situation is difficult when rest of their life. She is not the only such child in this we have a new vaccine, in this case against meningitis B, country; there are a lot of children in that situation with but lack important evidence on its effectiveness. We varying degrees of disability. need to know how well the vaccine will protect, how When the Minister reconsiders universal vaccination, long it will protect for and whether it will stop the will she bear it in mind that although it is expensive, the bacteria spreading from person to person. At the emotional costs of what Isabelle’s family went through committee’s next meeting in February, if it feels it is in a outweigh that expense? The Minister should consider position to make such a decision because it is in possession the matter in the round, not just the cost to the NHS of all the relevant facts, the JCVI will make a final of vaccinating every child. We should consider what recommendation on whether meningitis B immunisation vaccination is doing for the whole country in saving should be introduced. Obviously at that point we will money and preventing parents from having to make carefully consider and respond to the recommendation. such a terrible decision. It must have been agony I hope my hon. Friend is reassured that the recommendation for the parents, the child and the family to survive will get proper and careful attention. in that situation. Will the Minister reconsider what On the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member can be done to ensure universal vaccination against for Finchley and Golders Green, the primary aim of the meningitis B? UK’s national HPV vaccination programme, which began in 2008, is to prevent cervical cancer related to HPV 11.15 am infection. The HPV vaccine protects against two strains of HPV—16 and 18—that currently cause some 70% of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health cervical cancer. (Jane Ellison): It is a pleasure to serve under your As HPV is responsible for virtually all cases of cervical chairmanship, Mr Gray. cancer, preventing the disease is the major aim, but as I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley my hon. Friend rightly says, HPV infection has been and Golders Green (Mike Freer) on securing this debate associated with other cancers including cancer of the and on again bringing this important subject before the penis and anus, and some cancers of the head and neck. House. He has been a great champion. I also congratulate The precise proportion of those diseases that can be my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline attributed to HPV infection is less well defined, but Latham) on raising another vital aspect of the Joint evidence is emerging all the time, so HPV infection Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation’s work, should be taken seriously. to which I will also respond, albeit briefly. Evidence from clinical trials demonstrates that the It may help the House if I provide some background. HPV vaccine has a very high efficacy against the precursors The JCVI is an independent departmental expert committee, of cervical cancer. Evidence of efficacy against cancers and it is a statutory body constituted to advise the at other sites is emerging, and it is recognised that the Secretary of State for Health on the provision of vaccination current programme may therefore provide protection and immunisation services. The committee and its invited against a wider range of HPV-related cancers in females experts represent some of the finest clinicians and academics and, indirectly, in males than originally envisaged. in the UK and Europe, and all members are selected for It is also worth saying that the UK’s HPV vaccination their expert knowledge of matters concerning vaccination, programme has been a considerable success, with this immunisation and associated disciplines, including country having some of the highest coverage in the immunology, virology, bacteriology, paediatrics, general world—something we can be very proud of. A recently practice, public health and health economics. published study by Public Health England provided We all recognise that the NHS budget is a finite new evidence that the programme is successfully preventing resource. New vaccination programmes and extensions HPV infections in young women in England, and that to existing programmes represent a significant cost to adds to our confidence that the programme can achieve the health service in terms of both vaccine procurement its aim of reducing cervical cancer. and administration. Obviously, it is essential that any With a high uptake of HPV vaccination among girls, recommendations from the JCVI on changes to the transmission of HPV between girls and boys should, as national vaccination programme are supported by evidence my hon. Friend said, be substantially lowered. Many of cost-effectiveness. boys will be protected against HPV infection and will, The JCVI has adopted a methodology for assessing therefore, be at reduced risk of developing the related cost-effectiveness that is in line with that used by the cancers we have spoken about, such as anal, head and National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. neck cancers. However, I appreciate that he is particularly Using those processes, the committee basically ensures concerned that the current programme does not extend 107WH Joint Committee on Vaccination and 8 JANUARY 2014 Joint Committee on Vaccination and 108WH Immunisation Immunisation [Jane Ellison] on the basis of the best evidence. We cannot, therefore, undertake to take decisions hurriedly, because they are to men who have sex with men. He argued strongly that big decisions with, potentially, big implications. that is an apparent health inequality, and he raised the Should the JCVI recommend the targeted vaccination issue with my predecessor in last July’s debate, for which of MSM, flexibility around contracted volumes in the I was present. current vaccine contract may allow a programme to be As my hon. Friend will know, the JCVI has recognised undertaken without the need for a new round of vaccine that, under the current programme, the protection that procurement—the numbers involved are relatively small accrues from reduced HPV transmission from vaccinated in the context of the existing programme—if additional girls may not extend to men who have sex with men. He vaccine was available from the manufacturer in the made the additional point about men who might have required quantities. We are therefore cautiously optimistic sex with girls and women from elsewhere who have not that we can accommodate targeted vaccination of MSM been subject to the broad coverage provided by our in the existing programme, were it to be recommended programme. by the JCVI. I hope that is a little encouraging for my hon. Friend. That is why, in October 2013, the JCVI agreed to set Vaccine supply contracts are let for as long a period up a sub-committee on HPV vaccination to assess, as is considered appropriate, taking into account the among other issues, the question of extending the timing of potential changes to JCVI advice, policy and programme to MSM, adolescent boys or both. The market forces, as well as Government procurement guidance. JCVI therefore recognises the issue as a priority, and I Obviously, longer contracts can secure firm prices for a congratulate my hon. Friend on championing it, because longer period and allow for more accurate budget planning. the attention it received in Parliament was obviously However, we are exploring the flexibility we have in part of the reason it was given a fresh look and is existing contracts to align the window for the new regarded as a priority. I know the JCVI took events in contractual discussions with any potential recommendations Parliament into account, and, indeed, my hon. Friend by the JCVI, especially on the wider vaccination programme, made his case directly. were that what it recommended. We have not completed The sub-committee will aim to identify and evaluate that work yet, but what I have seen so far leads me to the full range of options for extending protection from conclude that we might be able to do something around HPV infection to men who have sex with men, and that the existing contract. We are looking at that to ensure will cover a range of settings, including genito-urinary we do not miss the window of opportunity, which my medicine clinics. However, as my hon. Friend will be hon. Friend identified as a chief cause of concern. aware, GUM clinics may not be the best setting for In conclusion, this important work has yet to be offering vaccination, as those presenting may already completed. We have to get some clarity on the time have been exposed to infection, so their ability to benefit lines. We cannot achieve one of the things my hon. from vaccination will inevitably be limited. Friend mentioned—bringing the work on the assessment The sub-committee is scheduled to meet for the first forward—because we have to review the available evidence time on 20 January, when it will assess currently available and fill in any gaps if further evidence is needed. A scientific evidence and consider what further evidence is decision on the vaccination of adolescent boys will required to advise the JCVI on the suitability of possible probably require the development of quite a complex changes to the HPV programme. For the reasons I model to determine whether vaccination would be cost- outlined earlier, any proposals for the vaccination of effective, because the numbers involved are large. Such additional groups will require supporting evidence to a model may identify a need to generate additional show that it would be a cost-effective use of NHS evidence, so a decision on that wider programme is not resources. likely before 2015. However, as I said, the evidence to support a decision on a selective programme to target Public Health England has begun preliminary modelling men who have sex with men may become available to assess the impact and cost-effectiveness of vaccinating during 2014. MSM, in anticipation of further guidance on the issue I can certainly give my hon. Friend the commitment when the HPV sub-committee meets. Further work, to that I will keep under careful review the timetable for assess the impact and cost-effectiveness of vaccinating key decisions when the committee makes its assessment adolescent boys against HPV infection, is also planned, and look at how they align with what we know about but it will take some time to do that important modelling, the flexibility we have under the procurement contract. and I am conscious that that is one of the predominant We will keep that under careful consideration. I conclude concerns on my hon. Friend’s mind. These are complex by congratulating him again on bringing this important issues, and the development of the evidence base and issue before us and on continuing to keep it on the the mathematical models by PHE, as well as the Government’s agenda. deliberations of the JCVI itself, take time. However, that process and the time it takes ensure that we get 11.26 am important decisions right and that decisions are taken Sitting suspended. 109WH 8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 110WH

Health Care (London) health care services and an overwhelming concentration of rarer and more difficult conditions, including tuberculosis, which places particular pressures on London.

[MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] Unsurprisingly, those facts are showing themselves in A and E attendance and waiting times. Just before Christmas, the London assembly found that more than 2.30 pm half of London’s A and E departments failed to meet Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I am their waiting time targets for more than half of last grateful for the opportunity to speak on the subject of year. Across the capital, Londoners had to wait for the NHS in London, and delighted that so many colleagues more than four hours on 202,000 separate occasions. from the four corners of London want to say something A and E attendance has soared in London since 2010 about the health service in their areas. I want to sketch and is up by 47% at St George’s hospital in Tooting, out, with some specific reference to local issues, the 46% at St Bartholomew’s Hospital, 33% at West Middlesex momentous changes that are happening within London’s university hospital and 35% at Hillingdon hospital. For health care and the extent to which the Government my own Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust, even a have made necessary changes far more difficult to achieve relatively modest increase of 19% equates to an extra than should have been the case. I fear the results. 44,812 people seen last year compared with 2010. Cancelled operations were running at a 12-year high even before When I applied for this debate before Christmas, I the winter, owing to pressure on hospital beds. One did not know that I would spend a large part of the next London hospital, Barts, topped the national list with two weeks experiencing the health care system with a 649 elective operations cancelled in the first half of last close relative, who was admitted to hospital on Christmas year. day. We went through the whole process of ringing 111, of paramedics, of the ambulance, of A and E and of Vacancy rates are a particular concern in London. spending two weeks in St Mary’s hospital. I can confidently Regionally, 11% of nursing posts are vacant, compared say two things on the basis of that experience. First, I with a national average of 6%. At some London trusts, have seen, and my relative has experienced, nothing but the rate is more than 20%. The regional total represents kind and efficient health care at St Mary’s and within more than 6,000 vacant nursing posts in London. The the health care system in general. It is true that, over the Royal College of Nursing, which kindly briefed me for years, there have been instances of the health care this debate, says: system falling far short of the standards that we expect, “Our worry is that the hard work of some trusts in protecting but it is also true that most health care professionals posts is being undermined by a lack of available, suitably qualified and auxiliaries are doing a stunningly good job for the nurses to take vacant positions, raising obvious questions about people of London and the rest of England. whether training is being commissioned at the level needed.” There is kindness and the effective delivery of health Given that pressure, it is beyond dispute that there is care everywhere we look in our health service. We must a need to carry on changing how health care is delivered, be careful not to succumb to the tendency—I see this which we all accept and have accepted for many years. too often from Government Members—to talk down The broad principles mapped out by Lord Darzi in the health service’s achievements. It is completely right 2007, which were not new, proposed a greater concentration that Sir Mike Richards of the Care Quality Commission of high-level surgical services to save lives, and better said in his comments on the first wave of inspections community and primary services to reduce unnecessary that admissions and enable speedy hospital discharge. Both the demand side of the equation, which is driven by an “there are some very good hospitals in this country, and it is possible, within the NHS, to receive good, excellent, even outstanding ageing population and the challenge of chronic conditions, care.” and the delivery side, which utilises the opportunities of Secondly, from my observations this past fortnight, I new drugs and surgical techniques, push us to the same can say that the health service is under extraordinary conclusion. There is clear agreement in principle that pressure. One would expect not to have the level of we need to carry on with the changes. staffing for the two-week period of Christmas and new The central thrust of my argument, which will be year that one might have outside the holiday period, but echoed by colleagues, is that managing change of that it has been alarming to note instances of health care scale requires that essential preconditions are met. Those auxiliaries being two thirds below planned staffing levels preconditions are, however, not being met at the moment, and nursing being down by one third. Incidentally, I and in some cases the means of delivering them are was also shocked to discover when talking to health going into reverse. First—all are important, but this is care assistants that they sometimes work an 11-hour the first—there must be public confidence in the process, day for a £90 day rate, which is not the London living and that confidence is so catastrophically lacking. wage—it is the minimum wage. How can we expect Labour colleagues who are facing the closure or people to provide the intensity and quality of care that downgrading of their A and Es will know what their we want when we do not pay them even the living wage? own communities are telling them, which is that closing That causes me great concern. A and E units in the midst of an A and E crisis is utterly Pulling back to the wider picture, as our experiences perverse and should not happen until and unless trusted have demonstrated, the health service is under extraordinary alternatives are in place. In that context, clause 118 of pressure, particularly in the emergency service. Some of the Care Bill confirms everyone’s worst fears, because, that is unsurprising in London, because the capital has having failed to win public confidence in London the fastest-growing population and has had the fastest and other parts of the country, Ministers want to rise in the over-65 population of any region in the give powers to special administrators to override local country. It also has the highest demands on mental opposition. 111WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 112WH

Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I set out by Lord Darzi, but instead it has been fragmented, am most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, and diverted and injected with rules on competition when I congratulate her on her brilliant speech, which hon. integration should be the key objective. Members understand from our experiences. The King’s Fund report of only some months ago, If clause 118 of the Care Bill goes through, every “Leading health care in London”, stated that the recent hospital and potential patient in the country will be NHS reorganisation and the abolition of strategic health faced with a situation in which no regard is given to authorities and primary care trusts have resulted in an clinical standards or clinical needs. The service will be “absence” of health care system leadership in London. based entirely upon accountancy. That is what the The report states: challenge was in Lewisham hospital. That was what was “The NHS reforms have created a much larger number of overturned. The people who knew about it—the consultants, organisations in London and their purposes are not always well the patients and the commissioning groups—all utterly aligned; the risks of incoherence and inconsistency are opposed the trust special administrator proposals. We high…Reorganising the NHS in London in such a fundamental way has made a challenging situation much more difficult”. were right and we won the case. With the new powers, however, all that would be set aside and no one would That is so significant that the country’s top emergency be heard. doctor has said that the current A and E crisis could have been averted two years ago had the Government heeded warnings of a looming collapse in casualty ward Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Before I call staffing. Ms Buck, I ask that interventions are brief. There will be time to make contributions later. This is a well The president of the College of Emergency Medicine attended debate and many Members have asked to has said that Ministers and health chiefs were “tied in speak. knots” by the challenges of implementing the coalition’s health reforms from 2011 onwards, leading them to Ms Buck: My right hon. Friend the Member for ignore the first warnings from the college of imminent Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock) is completely crisis—that the NHS was failing to recruit enough correct. Lewisham hospital brilliantly exemplifies the A and E doctors. Therefore, London, which possibly argument. has the most complex challenges and the greatest need for integrated strategic leadership, actually has the least Secondly, there must be effective partnership working such leadership. Had leading health care managers and between hospitals, primary care providers and local professionals been able to concentrate on dealing with authorities in the delivery of services. It was the failure such tasks, we might have had some opportunity to even to inform partners that elective surgery had already build public confidence, carry people with us and make moved from St Mary’s hospital to Charing Cross hospital the changes. In fact, the exact reverse has happened. that prompted my debate some weeks ago, to which the Finally, we need community and social care and Minister replied, and which subsequently prompted an other support services that minimise unnecessary apology for the breakdown in communication. That admissions, especially for chronic conditions, and facilitate was not only a matter of leaving someone off an e-mail early discharge. Again, we can all agree on the principle. circulation list, but a complete unwillingness to collaborate There are some excellent specific examples of integrated even within the national health service, let alone with practice and of people working hard to deliver it, but outside bodies such as the local council, which is responsible there are also some harsh truths of individual experiences for social care delivery. and the funding of social care. Furthermore, those three boroughs—Kensington, The reality is illustrated in letters from my constituents Westminster and Hammersmith—are part of a pilot in response to the moving of elective surgery from scheme to demonstrate integration, yet what happened St Mary’s. One letter states: in the relationship between the Imperial College trust “When I had my mastectomy I was sent to Charing Cross and those local authorities could not have been further Hosp. After the operation I went home by bus and underground from integration—it was like something written for a holding my drainage…bottle…from my operated breast. In the comedy sketch. same way I travelled after my cardiac arrest on my second Even worse, fundamental confusion remains about lumpectomy due to anaphylactic shock!” how north-west London hospitals are to be configured That is only one hazard of putting patients with no with Hammersmith—my hon. Friend the Member for family far from where they live. A second letter states: Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) is in his place and I am “They took my City of Westminster Taxi card from me and so sure will comment—which has a different spin on its I have to pay for taxis to take me to St Marys Hospital and…Charing Cross. I pay £6.50 there and the same coming home (£26 one way hospital provision from Westminster, even though they to Charing Cross). I cannot walk far”— are joined in a tri-borough arrangement. Even after the —she is unable to use public transport— Secretary of State has blessed the restructuring of west London hospitals, just weeks before Imperial concludes “as I get out of breath. I am 84 this year”, its outline business case, we cannot even have a clear diabetic and agreement on the status of Charing Cross hospital or, “have had one breast removed with cancer.” by extension, of St Mary’s. That goes to the very heart Another constituent told me: of whether we can have confidence in the new structure “I have lost my…home help”— of the national health service. due to the cuts in social care— Thirdly, everyone needs to keep focused on the key “If I’m ill, I wait for it to go away.” issues, and that takes me to the devastating impact of London as a whole faces a £1.14 billion shortfall in the Government’s ill-considered reforms on the strategic social care funding as a consequence of the pressures on management of London’s health service. The service adult social care and of the extra costs likely to arise should be focused like a laser on delivering the vision because of the cap—in principle, that is a good thing, 113WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 114WH but obviously revenue is necessary to fund social care Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I entirely associate costs. That situation is London-wide and has been set myself with the earlier comments about the quality of out clearly in a London Councils report. My local my hon. Friend’s address so far. She talks about trying authority also set the situation out clearly in a report to to have a logical and sensible planning process. Is she the health and wellbeing board, which states: aware that London boroughs such as Ealing, ably led by “As a result of reductions in local government funding Adult Councillor Julian Bell, have had to divert intense amounts Social Care…has to deliver substantial savings in 2013/14”— of resources in order to oppose something that is the £4.4 million in Hammersmith and Fulham, £2.1 million antithesis of good planning? That is an additional in Kensington and Chelsea, and £2.9 million in Westminster. double whammy against responsible local authorities, The report continues: which have to divert scarce resources and face up to a desperately uncertain future. “These are very large savings; the cumulative effects are much bigger than any other savings programme delivered in the local authorities in the past.” Ms Buck: I totally agree. Local authorities are on the front line of delivering the social care made necessary That is on top of £8 million in cuts to the adult social by some of the planned hospital changes and they are care budget already coming into effect since 2011. The under pressure. The councils have expertise and knowledge report states: and they are, as my hon. Friend says, sensibly involved “Amongst big reductions to back office and support functions, in planning services, so they are making thoughtful the savings programmes also include reductions in the use of objections when they see that services cannot be delivered packages and placements, the greatest area of spend for ASC.” as we want. Indeed, they have to divert resources in Rather sweetly, it adds: order to make the case on behalf of their populations. “Some of the savings projects may be difficult to deliver or may In conclusion, London’s NHS continues to save lives take longer than anticipated.” and to provide the same quality of care it currently It continues: provides. That is a tribute to tens of thousands of men “Funding growth for packages and placements arises mainly in and women on the front line, whether in the NHS or the Learning Disabilities, Mental Health and the Young Disabled employed directly by local authorities, but it owes absolutely care groups where client numbers are growing, but also in Older nothing to a Government who have let us down with a People, as people live longer and are supported in the community.” change process that we should have been able to work There is an important point. There is an integration through. They have done that by the way they have care fund, which is shifting money from the NHS into treated local authorities and by the way that, through social care, but, as Westminster council’s report on the this unnecessary reorganisation, they have diverted attention pressures on social care funding states, that funding will and resources from the leadership that could ensure mainly be used for purposes that include: that London’s health care is delivered in line with the “To sustain services, otherwise at risk from savings plans”. wishes of Londoners. The Government have let down London’s patients and the men and women who deliver We are in an extraordinary position. There is a health care to them. transformation fund designed to put in place the services that would allow us to make changes in hospital care, with which in principle we agree—we would argue in 2.50 pm some specific cases—but that funding is simply going to Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): fill the gaps caused by the cuts in social care, which are It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the result of cuts to local authority budgets. In London, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Westminster as we know, there has been a 25% cut in local authority North (Ms Buck) on securing this valuable debate. funding, with a further 10% cut as a result of the Although her conclusion was perhaps a little more Chancellor’s autumn statement. Much of that new money hyperbolic than mine would have been in the circumstances, is simply sustaining services that would otherwise be at we work closely together, along with her hon. Friend, risk from savings. the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), to do our best for all our constituents. Over the past year Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Is my hon. or so, as we have tried to put our constituents first, we Friend aware of the estimate made by London Councils have had concerns about elements of the negotiations for the future? Between 2016 and 2020, we might see on this matter. adult social care departments facing budget pressures For all the lively debate about health care provision of £1.1 billion owing to rising demand and some of the here in the capital, there is one thing on which we can all changes proposed by the Government. Does she agree agree, as the hon. Lady made clear in her contribution: that the future looks extremely bleak? the pressures on the national health service here in London are huge and getting bigger. They are set to Ms Buck: I agree totally. A thoughtful and planned increase substantially, not only because the population process throughout London that would allow us to is ageing but because of the hypermobility and build up community and primary services, reduce hyperdiversity of that population. In the past, that was unnecessary A and E admissions, speed up unnecessary perhaps typical of inner London alone, but it now discharges and concentrate some of our specialist services applies to the entirety of the capital. in fewer sites is sensible, but the means to realise it have At times, the national health service can seem a little been pulled out because of the pressures on social care like a national religion, whose traditions must not be funding. Furthermore, the strategic leadership that would questioned under any circumstance. In my view, if one allow us to make changes has been undermined by a good thing has come from the terrible events in Mid completely unnecessary, £3-billion, top-down reorganisation Staffordshire, it is that we can perhaps start to have a that we were promised would not happen. more honest and less ideological debate about where 115WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 116WH

[Mark Field] constituency will hopefully be affected for the better by the huge changes to be brought in by the “Shaping a the NHS is performing well, where it is letting people healthier future” programme. That programme began down and how it can better tackle the future challenges some five years ago to respond to the challenges of a to which the hon. Member for Westminster North rapidly increasing population and the variation we were referred. seeing in the quality of acute care. It has caused most I have enormous respect for the Secretary of State for controversy in its proposals to close a number of A and E unashamedly refocusing the NHS around patients rather departments. than protecting the sanctity of the system. Thankfully, My constituents are grateful, as are the hon. Lady’s, the patient experience at some of our central London that St Mary’s hospital in Paddington has been confirmed hospitals is, as the hon. Lady rightly pointed out, a as one of five north-west London hospitals to provide world away from what happened in Mid Staffordshire. advanced comprehensive acute care. I am assured that The diversity of population and the presence of top-flight there is a strong business case for even greater investment medical schools and universities, particularly in central on that site and exciting plans are afoot in that regard. London, inevitably draw global talent to our local hospitals. The Minister needs to be aware, however, that there have been issues of communication over the relocation I am often staggered by the quality of facilities here, of elective surgery, as was raised earlier. I accept much be it the state-of-the-art birthing unit in St Mary’s or of the wisdom in the reconfiguration of services in the Royal London, the beautiful Maggie’s cancer centre north-west London to allow for specialist centres rather at Charing Cross or the brand new oncology unit at than having hospitals that are jacks of all trades. Barts in my constituency. Only yesterday, a constituent wrote to me about his young nephew’s recent stint in I accept that that is easy for me to say, given that two hospital. He said: local hospitals in my constituency, Chelsea and Westminster “Given it seems it is ‘in vogue’ to be ‘anti-NHS’ I wanted to let and St Mary’s Paddington, are not affected, and I know you know that my recent experiences with the high dependency that the issue is a great concern for many Members, who unit at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital”— are hearing such concerns from many constituents. But that hospital is outside my constituency, but obviously I suspect the perceived success or failure of any caters for a lot of my constituents in the south of reorganisation of this sort will come down to smaller Westminster— things: how well plans are communicated; how quickly alternative, out-of-hospital services are in place; and “were nothing short of exemplary. I am sure that my nephew’s how transportation is organised for patients, many of speedy recovery was probably all down to the standard of care he received.” whom are impoverished or will have to travel further and rely on public transport. More often in my constituency it is non-emergency services that fail to be so patient-focused. Londoners are spoilt for choice in so many aspects of their lives, Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) and as a result they have the idea that they should (Lab): On the acceptability of reconfiguration, we should expect to get a full choice in everything. Why should never forget that many communities in London have a they not expect a similar consumer-driven, flexible and strong emotional attachment to a hospital that could responsive system when it comes to primary care—one have been in existence in some shape or form since the that allows them swift access to a GP or provides small middle ages. That is why reconfiguration must go forward surgical procedures outside hospital? carefully and on a purely medical basis if it is to succeed We have read a lot in recent days about the number of in London. non-emergency cases being presented at A and E departments. I think that that is in part due to the hassle Mark Field: That is right to an extent. I know that the factor associated with the existing GP system. With the hon. Lady spoke in a debate that I led in the House hypermobility of population in London, many people almost a decade ago on Barts, which is located in my never bother to register with a GP, and those who do all constituency and has a special place in the hearts of too often find that they cannot get an appointment for many millions of Londoners—and, indeed, of people days or at a time that is convenient for someone with a throughout the United Kingdom. The truth is that at busy working life. It is therefore often a perfectly logical that juncture, the private finance initiative was the only decision for those people to spend a few hours in funding game in town and we all went along with it, but A and E, where they are at least guaranteed to be seen. that £1 billion PFI has now caused major financial Thankfully the story is rapidly improving for my issues that, I am afraid, affect not just Barts but hospitals constituents. The Central London clinical commissioning right throughout the north-east of London, as the hon. group has just extended its seven-day GP opening service Lady is well aware. We all feel a bit depressed about that from three practices to five. People are able to walk in knock-on effect. and book a same-day appointment at those practices. We have to accept that in London, broadly speaking, They do not have to be a member of the practice to use we do pretty well as far as hospital care is concerned. the service, and registration with their own GP will not Being absolutely candid with everyone, because I know be affected. I also know that plans are afoot to locate what it is like, in central London we have a very good more GPs within hospitals in London. That type of service, and it is partly outer London that suffers as a modern and practical response really needs to be rolled result. That is because of the strength of the links to out more widely. which the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke There are problems with the health service in central Newington (Ms Abbott) rightly referred—the passion London, which my colleague the hon. Member for that we have for our historic hospitals—and the amount Westminster North has so carefully outlined. My own of resource that is pushed into central London because 117WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 118WH the hospitals there are teaching hospitals with consultants, Westminster experiences a high level of population former consultants and alumni who are willing to make churn—I accept that many other London boroughs are a strong case for the existence of those hospitals. Dare I in that boat—and that leads to additional demands for say it, that makes it easier to make the case for Barts services, including NHS checks and other screening than for a hospital out in Romford or Whipps Cross, or programmes. one in the hon. Lady’s constituency. Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): We all have to face those issues. They have not arisen Will the hon. Gentleman give way? as a result of the reorganisation of the past three and a half years; this has been the situation in the capital for probably 40 or 50 years. I am aware that even in the Mark Field: Other hon. Members want to speak so, if latest reconfiguration there has been a sense that central the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will finish with a request London has got off slightly better than the middle to the Minister. I would welcome an indication from the portion of outer western London. Government of when we can expect more clarity on how future public health allocations will be determined. I turn to finance. There was a good outcome before I would also appreciate confirmation that the formula Christmas for north-west London on commissioning consulted on in June 2012 will not be used to determine allocations, as all of our CCGs received an uplift to public health funding allocation in future. offset inflation. However, I want to raise concerns about the funding formula used to determine allocation. The Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I will call the Minister formula fails to take into account the needs of the large and shadow Opposition spokesman at 20 minutes to the homeless population in Westminster, which places massive hour. About five hon. Members want to speak. That pressure on acute services. Rough sleepers are far more means, bearing in mind time for interventions, about likely to attend accident and emergency; they attend six seven minutes for speeches. That is just a suggestion. times more often than any normal member of the population. They are admitted to hospital four times more often and stay in hospital three times as long. 3.2 pm Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): I will take the suggestion The formula also ignores the fact that CCGs are with the severity with which it was meant, Mrs Main. I responsible for all attendances at urgent care centres or congratulate my hon. Friend the hon. Member for walk-in centres and for the costs of patients covered by Westminster North (Ms Buck) on securing this debate. reciprocal funding arrangements with other countries. Westminster welcomes more than 1 million commuters I want to reflect on some of what my hon. Friend said and visitors each and every day, many of whom will at the beginning of her speech and on the sentiments of need health advice and care while they are here. It is a letter to The Guardian before Christmas from GPs, important that a future funding formula recognises the emergency doctors and nurses, midwives, physiotherapists, impact of that on local health care services. psychotherapists and NHS trusts. Their plea was for a page to be turned in the way we talk about the NHS. We The proposed formula will exclude spending on need to talk about the failures in patient care, but we community care. That cannot be correct considering must also recognise that we have some extraordinary the important move to provide more high-quality care abilities in the NHS to reach and look after our communities at home and in the community rather than simply in as well as they do. Sadly, I have been close to the NHS hospitals. I welcome the Government’s assurances that in the past three years, and I have seen excellence and the Advisory Council of Resource Allocation formula the pits. However, in general, the people who work in will not be accepted in its current state and that changes our hospitals do a fantastic job. to the funding of CCG will be fully consulted on in future. I wholeheartedly endorse the sentiments of that letter because I fear that the driver for the relentless daily I turn to public health spending. A draft formula for trashing that the NHS receives comes from base political local authorities was set out in the “Healthy Lives, motivation—the softening up of public opinion so that Healthy People” consultation, which was published on marketisation and privatisation become acceptable. It 14 June 2012 and recognised that further work was will not be acceptable. It is not acceptable now and I do needed on adjustments for age, fixed costs and non-resident not believe it will ever be acceptable, so let us just populations. However, initial modelling by London councils stop it. suggests that Westminster would have a drop of 57% in I am not the only one to mistrust the motivation and public health funding. Central London and Westminster outcome of the coalition’s top-down, unwanted and have unique population characteristics that make it wasteful reorganisation of the NHS. I did a survey of more difficult to make public health improvements. my constituents—I like to find out whether my impressions They include the age structure, with a greater focus on are the same as theirs—and 97% of those who responded working age and children, and levels of mental health said that the NHS would undoubtedly get worse under problems and homelessness. Those are not properly the new system. When they were asked about their main reflected in the current formula. concern, 60% thought that the money intended for The formula also fails to take account of substance NHS staff and services would end up as profit for misuse services, many of which fall outside the pooled private companies. My constituents are very astute. treatment budget, which focuses on opiates and crack I want to turn to local circumstances before I am treatment. It also ignores the wider health and local coughed at. In 2006-08, life expectancy for men in authority investment needed to manage the individual Newham was 75.8 years, lower than the London average family and community impact of drugs and alcohol on of 78.2 years. In the same period, life expectancy for health and well-being. women was 2.3 years below the London average at 119WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 120WH

[Lyn Brown] and Westminster (Mark Field), who made a well balanced speech, talk about resources being sucked into the large 80.4 years. Even within my borough, there are variations university hospitals in the centre. Even though those of that make the local situation much more complex and us on the far-flung borders of the east belong to the challenging. Life expectancy in some wards is 8.1 years same trust as one of those hospitals, we experience the shorter than in others. That is massive. difficulties he talked about in relation to Romford. In primary care, the recommended ratio of GP provision Rumours abound at the moment that Newham is 1.8 GPs per 1,000 of population. In Newham, the general, as part of the Barts trust, is under threat of ratio is appalling and equates to not much more than reconfiguration—a fascinating new word—to secure the half that, at 0.56 of a GP per 1,000 of population. It is viability of the trust as a whole. When I talked to the small wonder that in my survey, 35% of respondents trust’s chief executive, he told me that the PFI represented reported that it is never easy to get a GP appointment, only 10% of the trust’s entire budget and that, given and just 10% said that it is always easy.Many practices—too that the budget was large, he did not see the PFI as many—are operated by single GPs, so it is no surprise having major consequences for the delivery of services. that the patient experience in Newham is the worst in However, there is an accusation that the trust is being north-east London. a little disingenuous in its public statements that the The primary care trust, before its abolition, had a A and E at Newham general will not be closed. Assurances clear plan for tackling that challenging situation and I have been sought that there will be no downgrading enthusiastically endorsed and participated in it. Now, without full consultation, but those look weak in the there are no mechanisms in place to root out poor face of a shortage of anaesthetists, for example, who are practice and promote the best. I would like to hear from essential to support a viable emergency service. the Minister how she will ensure that Newham has the Almost half of London trusts are struggling to achieve number of GPs to which we are entitled, and that we the 95% standard for patients waiting in A and E. Barts have performance and outcomes that are the same as trust is just about achieving that target, but that is other areas of London. because Newham general performs well and helps the Incidentally, I would be interested to hear whether trust’s overall performance—a good example of how a other hon. Members here are experiencing the new local acute hospital catering for a place such as Newham phenomenon that we have in Newham: dial a diagnosis. can perform well, while larger hospitals struggle. Given When people contact their GP to arrange an appointment, that the future of Newham general’s A and E is under they are initially offered a telephone conversation with threat, the irony of the situation is not lost on me, and the GP. Is that because GPs must bolster the failing 111 nor will it be lost on my constituents. non-clinical service, which is now contributing to the In that scenario, it is essential that we maintain difficulties of our A and E departments? Is it to save Newham general as a fully functioning major acute money, to sift out or deter patients or to ration GP hospital with a full range of services, including A and E time? Has there been a risk assessment of what that and maternity. Given that we are seeing growth out to might entail, and does it contribute to the problems that the east, it would be irresponsible and downright dangerous my community is facing? Again, I would like to hear for us not to do that. It would also be a complete from the Minister about that. distraction from the absolute priority of putting in Another statistic from Newham that should be good place improved, integrated care services in the community news is that the incidence rate for breast cancer is 104.6 and in primary care. per 100,000 of population, significantly lower than the Finally, I seek assurances from the Minister about the UK average of 123.6. However, disturbingly and funding formula for CCGs being rolled out across distressingly, the percentage of women alive five years England. In the London context, it is shifting resources after diagnosis—the five-year survival estimate—is, at from inner-London boroughs, with their younger 75%, also significantly lower than the UK average of populations, to boroughs further out, which have older 83.4%. The reason in part is the take-up rate of breast populations. screening services, but there is anecdotal evidence of women who were part of Barts hospital’s preventative Newham just happens to have the youngest population health services being encouraged to go away and become in the whole of Europe, apart from some tiny canton part of the general population, and to present sometime somewhere that is almost irrelevant. We will therefore in the future. That encouragement not to continue to lose substantial amounts, while London as a whole is attend for breast screening gave a rosy picture of health losing 2.3% of its funding to other areas. I would like needs. reassurance from the Minister that the funding formula The London Health Commission, under the will fully take account of deprivation, as the hon. chairmanship of Lord Darzi, has a remit that includes Member for Cities of London and Westminster said, as healthy lives and reducing health inequalities. I will be well as of our population’s high level of mobility, with interested to hear what the Minister says in anticipation the health problems that brings with it, and diversity, of the commission’s report, and what assurance she can with the specific demands that that puts on health care. give that the Government will act on health inequalities. Let me refer to the Barts health care trust, which is 3.13 pm the largest in the country and incorporates Barts, the Royal London, Whipps Cross and Newham general Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I hospitals. Our patch is the growing part of London, congratulate the hon. Member for Westminster North with growth in population, complexity, the number of (Ms Buck) on securing this important debate. I will homes and, of course, opportunity. I was therefore keep my comments brief because I want to be fair to grateful to hear the hon. Member for Cities of London other Members who want to speak, not because I do 121WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 122WH not care deeply about this subject. Previous speakers Stephen Pound: I entirely agree, and I think most of have talked ably about a lot of the statistics, so I do not us would associate ourselves with the hon. Lady’s comments need to go over them. on the London air ambulance, but does she not agree I was actually born in a London hospital, across the that it might be better if it were run by the state, instead river in St Thomas’. I was pleased to go there again of relying so much on charity? recently to visit my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood)—I hasten to add that Mary Macleod: The London air ambulance service is I was visiting the maternity ward because his wife had an amazing organisation, so I would not change its given birth to their new son, Oscar. It was lovely to be structure. It rightly gets some funding from the NHS, back at St Thomas’, albeit after so many decades. but it also derives funding from many other sources, and it is important that we support that. The service Some important issues have been raised in the debate. does an incredible job, so if the hon. Gentleman knows Health care is critical to all of us—it touches each and anyone who can give it a spare helicopter, it would really every one of us, our loved ones and our constituents. It appreciate that. is crucially important and we must get it right. In My local CCG is chaired by Dr Nicola Burbidge. It London, there are specific problems, as has been said. started early, it has been absolutely focused on patients I was pleased that in 2010 the Government made and it has been very responsive to any issues I have £2.7 billion extra available in real terms in the NHS raised with it. budget across the UK. That has allowed us to have On reconfiguration, I was recently thankful when, 440,000 more clinical staff, and we also have 23,000 fewer after a lot of campaigning by my hon. Friend the administrative staff, including 7,700 fewer managers. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands) and That was absolutely the right approach and what the others, the Secretary of State announced that the A and E NHS needed. at Charing Cross hospital would not be closed, thus The average stay in hospital is shorter than in 2010, helping residents in my part of London. Saving lives although that puts pressure on community care, so we and improving patient care is paramount. must make sure that that is dealt with. The cancer drugs fund is also critical to the debate, and we have helped Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I apologise for more than 38,000 patients through it. not being here for the opening speech. Does my hon. The debate is about London and the issues specific to Friend agree that one challenge now facing London is this great city. In my constituency, in west London, the the increasing complexity of diseases and the treatments key health care issues tend to be focused around that are required, which means that additional money tuberculosis, obesity—including in children—diabetes and expertise are needed? Such diseases often cannot be and alcohol-related harm. As Members might expect, dealt with at a local level; they must be dealt with we have above average problems with healthy eating, nationally. Although we have supported those suffering given the issues with obesity. Other issues include smoking from cancer and other diseases, there are much more during pregnancy, smoking deaths and skin cancer. complex diseases that remain to be resolved. There are therefore specific issues in west London, and I will focus on them. Mary Macleod: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I hope the Minister will respond to the issue of how we In my constituency, we have one main hospital—the take up such challenges in London and get the necessary West Middlesex university hospital, where two thirds of funding. my constituents go when they need to. My Chiswick residents—about a third of my constituents—tend to I shall list some issues on which I would like more go to Charing Cross hospital. I want to reiterate what improvement. We heard how difficult it is to get previous speakers have said: we have some excellent appointments at general practices—we call up and know patient care and services across our London hospitals, that the answer is going to be no before we say anything. but there are, absolutely, also areas we should focus on. There are also issues with getting to see a specialist as quickly as possible. We want an effective complaints The West Middlesex has outstanding maternity and process in hospitals, changing the culture to allow people, midwifery services. One of the best parts of our job as whether staff or patients, to complain. There is an issue Members of Parliament is rewarding people who have with how patients are moved around London, and the done incredible work in the health service, whether they hon. Member for Westminster North made an important are clinicians or support staff, and I recently handed point about having to use public transport to get home. out awards at the West Middlesex, which is ably led by Mental health and community public health are other Dame Jacqueline Docherty. important issues. I also want to pay tribute to London’s air ambulance My final comment is about dementia, which is a service. During the Christmas period, there was a fire growing concern in London, as it is across the country. and a massive explosion in Chiswick, and the air ambulance About 30% of patients who go into the West Middlesex was called. The service deserves as much support as hospital have dementia. They do not go there because possible, because it serves 10 million residents in London, of dementia, but they have it. There is a lot to be done, and it has only one helicopter. It is world class, providing and the West Middlesex hospital has just opened a new high-trauma, acute care. Everywhere else around the dementia ward. There needs to be a greater focus on country has one helicopter for 1.5 million people, but dementia, given our ageing population nationally, and the figure in London is 10 million, so there is an the size of the population in London. We must ensure absolute need for another helicopter. I would push that we work together to support those who really need everyone to support the London air ambulance service, and deserve care and support in London. That will which has its 25th anniversary tomorrow. improve the NHS for us all. 123WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 124WH

Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Four speakers because we understand that 50% of its site will be sold have risen to speak, all from the Opposition, so hopefully in any event. Of course, any amelioration in the position they will be mindful of their colleagues. Mr Andrew is to be welcomed. Slaughter. I praise the cross-party Save Our Hospitals group for campaigning tirelessly in both my borough and Ealing on the issues I have mentioned. However, the point it 3.22 pm would want me to make very clearly is that what I have Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Given the described is not what we want. Of course we want good time constraints, I shall limit myself to one issue, which elective care, primary care and treatment services, but is the current threat to the emergency hospitals in my the issue of capacity must be addressed. constituency, but I begin by congratulating my hon. It is not feasible to close two of the largest emergency Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) hospitals. I use the word “close” advisedly. As emergency on securing this timely debate. She made her arguments hospitals, they are closing: there will be no emergency very well. surgery, no blue-light A and E, no stroke unit and no This morning, I received an e-mail from the Secretary intensive treatment on those sites. I am afraid that the of State that is pertinent to the debate. There was an Secretary of State’s intervention so far has been genuinely agreement for him to meet the three Ealing MPs, two of unhelpful and done for political reasons. We have invented whom—my hon. Friends the Members for Ealing, Southall a second-tier A and E, as it is called. A second-tier (Mr Sharma) and for Ealing North (Stephen Pound)—are A and E is an urgent care centre. The only differences here, and me next Monday evening. The Secretary of that clinicians could identify for me were that at a State has withdrawn from that meeting, pleading other second-tier A and E there would be GP cover and X-ray engagements, and asked us to meet officials instead. I services, and for elderly and vulnerable people there hope that he will reconsider. The meeting is specifically might be some beds for recuperation after minor treatment. about the threat to two of London’s major hospitals, Otherwise, it is an urgent care centre or a minor injuries Charing Cross and Ealing, and I hope that the comments unit. I am about to make will lead the Minister to intervene Let us not play political games. I am not saying that and ask that the meeting go ahead. We understand that we can keep politics out of the NHS—of course we the Secretary of State has pressures on his time, but it is cannot—but this is dangerous because it will mislead entirely unacceptable for him not to meet Members on people. If people think that there is an A and E at an issue of such crucial and central importance. Charing Cross or at Ealing when there is not, they will It is sad news, but we know— go there when they should have gone elsewhere. We will continue to campaign to save emergency services. It is not feasible for the Imperial family to go from three Mary Macleod: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? major emergency departments to one. All three are currently under pressure and overcrowded. The decision Mr Slaughter: I would rather not because of the time. has to be taken by Ministers, so I implore the Minister I am sorry. to go back to the Secretary of State and ask that he We know what is happening with Hammersmith hospital meet us. because it has been announced that the A and E department The level of politics is not acceptable. Politics comes there is going to close after the winter crisis—as if the into these matters all the time. Before the last election, crisis is not a continuing one. I have been told informally when there was no threat to the hospitals, the Conservatives that it will close two weeks after the local elections to kept saying that there was—I have their election literature avoid any embarrassment to the Government. We were here. We now have taxpayers’ money being spent on also told that there might not even be an urgent care campaigns saying that hospitals are staying open when, centre there; it may be moving. That would mean no in fact, departments in them are not. Let us at least tell emergency access to Hammersmith hospital, unless it is our constituents the truth. There may be unpalatable still to receive emergency blue-light coronary cases. At decisions to be taken, but as far as Charing Cross is least Hammersmith hospital will continue as a major concerned, the health service is clear that it will be a specialist hospital, and a very fine hospital it is indeed. local hospital. It will not be an emergency hospital. The situation regarding Charing Cross hospital is far That is not acceptable in any way to my constituents. It less clear. I will précis where we are and explain the is not feasible to run a health service in west London on matters that we wish the Secretary of State to deal with. that basis. In February last year, the decision, which is still extant, I have made my points to the Minister clearly, and I was made to close completely and sell off the Charing look forward to her response. I also look forward to the Cross hospital site, leaving an urgent care centre on 3% meeting with the Secretary of State where I can put my of the site. At the same time, there was to be an outline points in more detail and more forcefully. business case, to report in October last year, that might preserve 13% of the facilities and 40% of the site. That 3.28 pm business case is now due in March, but we understand— through the Imperial College Healthcare foundation Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I am grateful trust process, not any other process—that there will also for the opportunity to speak in this debate. We have be elective surgery on the site. That might mean there already heard that the NHS in London is most definitely will be elective surgery as well as primary care and straining under the weight of demand for services. The treatment facilities, and some form of emergency centre problem is related to the constrained financial environment, on the site, with perhaps 50% of the land preserved. but fundamentally it is about the increasing needs of That gain, in so far as it is a gain, is St Mary’s loss, our population. The population of London has grown 125WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 126WH by 12% in the past decade and is likely to grow by this very important debate. I share the concerns expressed another million in the coming decade. That is why the by my colleagues earlier, including those about the plans to downgrade and close desperately needed and Secretary of State cancelling the meeting that I and the often very successful emergency and maternity departments leader of Ealing council requested. We were looking in London are met with such incredulity and anger. forward to expressing the views of the residents of our I would like to make a few points to the Minister constituencies. today. First, I ask her to consider the overall shape of Multiple A and E departments in the capital have maternity services in London. Much of the debate been under threat of closure or set for closure, from focuses on big arguments about the reconfiguration of Lewisham, where a hard-fought campaign has saved the emergency departments, but maternity services are often hospital from closure, to south-west London, Ilford, a victim of those reorganisations, because as soon as an and the four A and Es in west London, two of which intensive care unit is taken away from a hospital, it is have been marked for closure and two of which are still unable to provide full maternity services. Does the effectively closed—they are being called A and Es when Minister really want to ask women in the capital to they are not. One of them is in my constituency in travel even greater distances to give birth to their children, Ealing hospital. In a city of more than 8 million inhabitants, when they want to be close to home and family? Will where the population growth is twice the national average, she look at some of the sacred cows that have built up in those closures and downgrades will have a huge impact the wisdom on maternity services? on the lives and safety of local residents, leaving many I know there is an aspiration to provide 168 hours of residents miles from their local A and E. consultant cover every week in maternity departments, Accident and emergency services are already under but I understand that that currently happens at only tremendous pressure and will be subject to increased one trust in the whole country. I ask the Minister strain with local closures. We know that the number of whether it is achievable, affordable, or necessarily in the blue-light ambulance diverts increased drastically in best interests of women to continue to aspire to reach London, by almost a quarter, proving that A and Es in that standard in all our hospitals in London. London are over capacity. One of the hospitals that has Another point I want to make to the Minister—it has regularly turned away ambulances is Northwick Park. already been made—is on the crucial importance of the With the closure of A and Es at Central Middlesex and public being involved and having a genuine say when Hammersmith hospitals, and with Ealing and Charing hospital services are being reconfigured. In Lewisham, Cross hospitals seemingly unable to receive blue-light we saw the exact opposite of that, with the unsustainable ambulances in north-west London, Northwick Park providers regime. The Government are trying to augment will be under even more strain as patients are sent there that process and apply it more widely, which has very for emergency treatment. serious implications for trust in politics and in our health service. Northwick Park is already overburdened and is one of the worst-performing A and Es in the country. It will I am very conscious of time and that two other simply not be able to cope with the four other local Members wish to speak. I ask the Minister to look very A and Es closing and will be unable to accept blue-light hard at the existing evidence on centralising all hospital ambulances. Journey times for patients will be longer services in London. I know there is a lot of evidence for and they face the risk of travelling elsewhere if the creating centres of excellence for stroke, trauma, and ambulance is turned away. That will be the difference vascular disease in big hospitals. However, I wonder between life and death for emergency patients—an whether the same evidence exists for other acute medical unacceptable situation. emergencies and whether there is evidence, for example, for centralising mental health services or maternity Back at the end of October, the Secretary of State services. confirmed the closure of A and Es at Central Middlesex I have one final point—I will sit down very shortly. and Hammersmith hospitals, and announced that A and Es There are currently plans at many hospitals in London would remain at Charing Cross hospital and Ealing to flog off hospital sites. That land should not be used hospital, in my constituency, the shape and size of to create playgrounds for the rich and the international which would be subject to a review. His statement, jet set. Public land is a very precious asset in London, which was supposed to remove uncertainty about the and if we are going to use it for anything, could we future of our local hospitals, only further increased please explore the possibility of using it for housing for confusion. elderly people, providing communities of care? Provision It has, however, been made clear, through the Keogh of suitable accommodation is one of the crucial things review and Dr Mark Spencer’s subsequent comments, we need to get right if we are to tackle some of the that the review would in fact reduce the size of Ealing’s underlying problems in the NHS. A and E, and that Ealing would be unable to receive blue-light ambulances. The Secretary of State, who Several hon. Members rose— pledged to keep the A and E services, has in fact downgraded Ealing hospital, while keeping the A and E Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I shall call in name only. The Secretary of State promised an Mr Gwynne at 20 minutes to four. I now call Mr Sharma. A and E for Ealing, but delivered only more disappointment to local residents. There are many other concerns, not 3.33 pm least of which is the fact that many of my constituents in Southall are the poorest and most vulnerable members Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Thank of society, with specific health needs that are met by you, Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the nearby Ealing hospital. They will have to travel considerable Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) on securing distances, putting their lives at risk. 127WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 128WH

[Mr Virendra Sharma] of hon. Members present. It is definitely an issue of real significance right across our capital city. I pay tribute to With the population of west London growing, those all the hon. Members who today have made contributions, decisions seem, at best, unsafe and, at worst, dangerous. long and brief, on a wide variety of matters. The concerns that we have in my constituency and in Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the west London will obviously be replicated across London staff working in the national health service for their with the threat of more closures in the midst of an commitment in providing a first-class service to patients A and E crisis. There needs to be more of a concerted in what has been a very trying period for the NHS. As effort from the Secretary of State and the Department we know, there have been important changes in the of Health to help Londoners receive the best health provision of hospital care in London. We have had care, rather than making this existing crisis worse. “Health for North East London”, “Shaping a healthier future”, the Barnet, Enfield and Haringey clinical strategy, Glenda Jackson rose— the trust special administrator’s review of South London Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I call Ms Glenda Healthcare NHS Trust and the NHS in south-east Jackson—you have one and a half minutes. London and “Better Services, Better Value” in south London, to name a few of the reconfigurations that have taken place in the capital. 3.38 pm My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): is right to point to extreme financial pressures on hospital Thank you very much, Mrs Main. I had intended to services. North-west London hospital services must talk for slightly longer than two minutes, but the central accommodate a £125 million reduction in service between thing I wish to say is about mental health. Other 2011 and 2015. The people who use hospitals in London contributors to this very important debate have touched are rightly concerned about the changes to the services on that, but it seems to me that for us, as a nation, it is on which they rely. We have heard about the proposals essentially a Cinderella service, and certainly has been that will lead to the loss of accident and emergency all the time that I have been in the House. departments at Charing Cross, Ealing, Hammersmith The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster and Central Middlesex hospitals. (Mark Field) referred to the pressures on central London. However, it is not only my hon. Friends who are That is not only to do with the churn of people moving concerned about the future of A and E departments in into London and moving out, but, as he rightly said, it London; local authorities are, too. Local authorities is most markedly about people who are dependent, or such as Ealing have voiced their concerns about the over-dependent, on drugs and alcohol, and people with downgrading of their A and E services. As we have mental health issues. A peripatetic patient cohort—I heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith hate that word, but I cannot think of anything else at (Mr Slaughter), A and E facilities that both the Prime the moment—is virtually not being regarded, let alone Minister and the Secretary of State had promised to something on which the multifarious bodies and boards save across north-west London and elsewhere in the that are now responsible for delivering health care in capital will be closing. I hope very much that the London are working together. meeting between the Secretary of State and the hon. I hope the Minister will take that away and put it at Members who represent Ealing and Hammersmith can the top of her list, because the enormous damage that is be reconvened as requested. done to individuals when they are allowed to go over Of course, all this is in direct contradiction to what the cliff of their crisis is reflected in the damage inflicted the Prime Minister said during the general election, on their families and their wider community. I am when he promised to halt the closures of hospitals, firmly of the opinion that the right provision, as we accident and emergency departments and maternity have had in my own constituency, is a house that is open units. Why does the Minister think that there is such 24/7, 365 days a year. People who felt that they were widespread concern about the lack of leadership in the going to go over the edge of their mental health crisis health service in London at a time when the NHS is could walk in through the door. There were people dealing with unnecessary upheaval? there all the time to care for them. Yes, such facilities are expensive to set up, but I am firmly of the opinion that Frankly, it was a disastrous decision on the part of the money we save by having them could be put towards the Government to spend billions of pounds on an the sharp end of delivering a high-quality health service unnecessary top-down reorganisation, which has led to to people who are not suffering from mental health a loss of financial grip in the NHS. Now, more than problems. 6,000 nursing posts have been lost, waiting lists are getting longer and we are seeing the return of patients on trolleys in corridors. Indeed, we are now seeing 3.40 pm A and Es not just in London but across the country Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): It is a facing a winter crisis after an unprecedented summer pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. A and E crisis. At the same time, local authorities are I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster having a huge cut to their social care budgets. That North (Ms Buck) on securing this very important debate means that more and more elderly people are ending up about health care in London. I hope that hon. Members in A and E, because there is no one at home to care for will forgive this Mancunian for gatecrashing the debate them, adding even more pressure to a pressured system. to respond for the Opposition. Labour Members warned Ministers repeatedly during The future of health services and especially accident the passage of the Bill that became the Health and and emergency services across London is an important Social Care Act 2012 that the legislation would lead to issue of genuine concern to a great many of the constituents the break-up of the NHS. The public rightly expect to 129WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 130WH have easy access to health services, and Ministers have a reconfigurations of services that we have seen, so that heavy responsibility to show leadership and to act to the complexities in health needs—including mental health, prevent people’s lives being put at risk. Ministers must which my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and also tell the House today what action they propose to Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) mentioned—are taken on take to ensure that London’s growing population will board fully for the betterment of people living in London. continue to have good access to hospital and other health service provision in their local areas. Those points were made eloquently by a number of hon. Members, 3.50 pm but I have to mention my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) in relation to Newham. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison): What an amazing debate! I congratulate Of course, Labour Members do not oppose all the the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) on changes to local health services. Surely it is right that securing it; a lot of issues have been covered. Many hospitals and services evolve and change. However, it London colleagues have contributed, made interventions must be change based on good clinical reasons and not or simply been present to listen to it. As a London MP, I just financial necessity. am particularly conscious of the unique challenges facing health care in London, and many of the issues Ms Abbott: Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue raised apply as much to my constituents as they do to in London is not just provision for its size of population, those of colleagues across the House. As hon. Members but the extreme diversity and complexity of the population? have said, London is an amazing city with world-leading It is a very mobile population. There are large numbers expertise and services, but it has unique challenges. of refugees and asylum seekers, and London has the Whichever party was in Government, it would have to largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community respond to those challenges. in the country. That is what people have to pay attention to if they are reconfiguring services. I will do my best to respond to some of the points that have been made, but there were such a range of Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is right. London is points, and some of them were so specific, that I may a global city. It has people coming in from all over the need to write to colleagues after the debate. I hope that world, not just from elsewhere in the United Kingdom. hon. Members understand that. I will ensure that I It is a diverse city. It is an exciting, vibrant city—I am follow up those points personally or ask NHS London probably over-egging it for a Mancunian, but it is a to do so. Forgive me for having to make that health great place. Those complexities are what makes London warning. fantastic, but they are also what makes delivering health I start by echoing the praise from the hon. Member services a real challenge. for Westminster North for our NHS staff in London. To make the change work, there must be clarity and They work under many interesting and unique pressures, partnership. Everyone must understand what is being and they respond, for the most part, magnificently. We proposed and how the decisions are to be taken. That all realise that no service is above criticism, but our brings me on to the issue of Lewisham and clause 118 starting point is that we have some amazing people of the Care Bill. We saw in Lewisham the power of an working very hard under difficult circumstances. I am effective campaign in the face of unpopular change to particularly glad that the hon. Lady and her family health services and what that can achieve. experienced good care at a crucial time. I pay tribute to the Lewisham MPs and to the The hon. Lady is right to caution that debates about campaigners, who fought tirelessly for their local hospital. health need to acknowledge, but not to exaggerate, risk. The proposal to close their A and E department was We always teeter on the brink of exaggerating points for rightly met by a strong local campaign, which included political effect, and it is really important that we keep protest marches and a successful legal challenge to the some sense of perspective. Several hon. Members have closure. Indeed, the Court of Appeal ruled that the referred repeatedly to an A and E crisis. I want to put on Health Secretary did not have the power to implement the record that for the week ending 29 December 2013 the cuts at Lewisham hospital. If only he had listened to last year, the figures for A and E waiting times in my hon. Friends in Lewisham—they had been arguing London demonstrate that 96% of patients were seen in that beforehand. under four hours in all A and E types, against a standard Clause 118 should give very real concern to all hon. of 95%. For the third quarter of last year, 95.3% of Members in the debate, because in future it will give patients were seen in under four hours in all A and E carte blanche to the Secretary of State and the Department types. of Health to reconfigure services right across the country I am not saying that we do not have problems and as they sought to in Lewisham, disfranchising the challenges, but let us be clear that in many places, the communities that have spoken out very loudly across NHS is responding well to those challenges and meeting London against some of the changes. Labour Members targets. Work force statistics show that the number of are rightly concerned about that measure and we will be community health service doctors increased by 8.5% opposing it during the next stages of proceedings on the from 2010 to 2013. Let us make sure that we keep a Care Bill. sense of perspective on where we are. In conclusion, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Some of the comments during the debate referred to Member for Westminster North and to all my right reconfigurations across London. We are quite clear that hon. and hon. Friends who have taken part in the reconfiguration of front-line health services is a matter debate. Hospital services are very important to the for the local NHS, precisely for the reasons that some capital. We must make sure that there is proper strategic hon. Members have given. We are trying to make sure planning across London, not the piecemeal approach to that they are led by clinical decisions. That was 131WH Health Care (London)8 JANUARY 2014 Health Care (London) 132WH

[Jane Ellison] I have touched on health and wellbeing boards. The challenge around Newham GPs would be ideal for acknowledged in the opening speech, as was the need discussion at a health and wellbeing board, where all for change. The hon. Member for Westminster North the key people are present. It is a big challenge, and one made that point. of the first questions I asked as a Health Minister is why we struggled so badly to get GPs in our most deprived areas. There are varying answers to that, but it is a Ms Buck: Will the Minister give way? problem across the country. The health and wellbeing board is exactly the right Jane Ellison: Forgive me, but I really will not have a forum for discussion because the right people are around chance to respond to any of the points made if I give the table. Tackling health inequality is now built into way. I will catch up with the hon. Lady afterwards if statute through the Health and Social Care Act 2012, there are points that she specifically wants to discuss. which must be given due attention in all parts of the health service. The Darzi-led London Health Commission All the reconfigurations must focus on delivering will be interesting. I spoke to Lord Darzi about it just modern health care, better patient outcomes and services before Christmas to improve my understanding of its as close to home as possible, but, most importantly, objectives. As a Minister with responsibility for public they must focus on saving lives and improving quality of health and as a London MP, I will be looking closely at life. Those service changes are best led by clinicians, the commission’s outcomes and I will be keen to work with all of us getting involved and engaging with the with people on that. It is a big opportunity. process, as we must do. That is what we all want for our constituents, and there are different ways to achieve To touch on the point raised by my hon. Friend the that. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), the formula does not currently reflect non-resident Change is inevitable, as most, but not all, hon. Members population or the homeless, but that is something that have acknowledged. We have debated questions such as the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation and the changes to stroke services in London, which many NHS England continue to consider. I will ensure that I campaigners predicted would have dire and dreadful draw my hon. Friend’s concerns to their attention, and outcomes. In fact, the opposite has been true, and that those are fed into the ongoing process of looking at London clinicians believe that hundreds of our constituents’ formulas. lives have been saved by the concentration of excellence For the first time, the formulas for CCG patients and in certain centres. We must be realistic about the fact public health allocations take into account health that reconfiguration can bring great health benefits as inequalities, and they look at GP populations rather long as it meets the important tests set out by the than census-based populations. The formulas are also Secretary of State, and is clinically led. designed to be more locally sensitive. As the hon. Member The health service has to respond to growing demand. for Westminster North and I know particularly well, in Much of the debate has focused on the long-term a city such as London areas that appear to be quite challenges to the health service in London and across affluent can contain pockets of tremendous deprivation. the country. The Government are trying to respond to The new formula allows for that by enabling consideration those huge long-term pressures. We are looking at GP of sub-areas and the real health inequalities that they opening hours and at access. That could not be a bigger suffer. I hope that hon. Members feel some reassurance issue in London, which has a highly diverse and highly about that. We keep the matter under close watch. mobile population in a 24-hour city. People need to be Several detailed concerns were raised by the hon. able to access health care at a time that suits their work Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) about patterns and lifestyle, and we are pushing for changes to Lewisham, the south London reconfiguration, maternity contracts in that area. There will be named GPs for services and accommodation. The shadow Minister, the over-75s. We are looking at the integration of social hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) care and public health. We know that there are big referred to clause 118. I will ensure that I draw his challenges around that, but a big project is under way to concerns to the attention of the Minister who is leading try to tackle it. on that Bill. No doubt that point will be responded to when the Bill is brought before the House. The Court of Ring-fenced public health budgets will empower local Appeal overturned the decision to make service change authorities to do the very thing that many hon. Members in Lewisham, and we respect that. The Secretary of have drawn our attention to, which is to look at the State has put that on the record. needs of local communities and respond to them at the Several points were raised about the north-west London most local level. We do not want to take a “Whitehall reconfiguration. That was debated in this Chamber on knows best” approach; we want to tell local authorities, 15 October, after which a letter was sent by the local “We have ring-fenced your local public health budget so NHS to the hon. Member for Westminster North. If that you can look at the needs of your local population other hon. Members have not seen that letter and would and work with health and wellbeing boards and clinical find it helpful to, I am happy to put it in the Library of commissioning groups to devise services that help people the House. I note the ongoing concerns expressed by the to live longer and healthier lives without the need to hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) about resort to acute services.” the reconfiguration, and I will relay to the Secretary of There has not been much recognition of the need for State the detailed points that he has made and his desire the changes made to public health budgets, but of all for a meeting. the measures raised in the debate, those changes have Other hon. Members have made comments about some of the most exciting potential to tackle the challenges the same reconfiguration. For all the criticism of the that we face. plans and the analysis, I note that the shadow Minister 133WH Health Care (London) 8 JANUARY 2014 134WH did not commit his party to changing any of the Scotch Whisky Excise Duty reconfigurations or to changing NHS funding levels. If I may say so, his speech was long on analysis and short 4pm on commitment. I conclude by saying that the issues raised today are Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I am important to all of us as London MPs. There are some grateful to you, Mrs Main. I am aware that we are to big long-term challenges and the Government are trying vote at 4 o’clock, so we will find ourselves in a short to respond to them in the best interests of all our adjournment. As I speak, I am waiting for the vote to constituents. come. [Interruption.] There we go. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Before we commence the debate on Scotch whisky excise duty, I should say 4.9 pm that we are expecting a vote—hence my glances at the On resuming— Annunciator screen. Should that happen, I will call for the sitting to be suspended until the vote has taken Mr Donohoe: It is a pleasure to see you back in the place. Chair this afternoon, Mrs Main. It is just a pity that you do not have a glass of whisky in your hand, with which, at this time of the year, we would share a toast. Water will have to do, I am afraid. It is quite incredible that we should have to have this debate, particularly in this very important year for the Scots, who are voting on whether to remain in the United Kingdom or to have a separate Government in Scotland. I shall pose a question: can anybody tell me how much taxation there is on a bottle of whisky that costs about £12.70?

Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): It is 80%.

Mr Donohoe: On a bottle of whisky that costs £12.70, more than £10 is tax, including VAT. That is the level of taxation placed on our best industry in Scotland.

Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr Donohoe: I will take interventions towards the end of my speech, if I may. I will give everybody who has made a representation to me an opportunity to speak. I also have an eye for the chair of the all-party group on Scotch whisky and spirits. As I said, this is the year of separation, so it is important to have this debate as we move towards the Budget on 19 March. I fully support the “UK okay” campaign. One of the areas of vulnerability is the current disproportionate tax on Scottish whisky compared with English beer or cider. Whisky is taxed at 48% more than the same amount of alcohol served as beer. That is the difference in terms of the taxation on whisky and spirits. The beer duty escalator was abolished last year, but the spirits escalator continues at 2% above inflation. That should be addressed and I will come to the reasons why. Excise duty on Scottish whisky is now 44% higher than in 2008. The escalator in 2014 will mean an increase in duty of 4.8%, or, in terms that I understand, 38p per bottle. That is what the escalator will bring. As I said, taxation as it stands now is more than £10 a bottle. Scotch whisky exports are growing, but the home market remains important, and the UK is the third largest market for Scotch whisky by volume. However, volumes in the UK have declined by some 12% in the UK since the escalator was introduced—as a result of it, I would argue, and I am sure some of my colleagues would too. The UK tax on spirits, which of course includes Scotch whisky, is the fourth highest in 135WH Scotch Whisky Excise Duty8 JANUARY 2014 Scotch Whisky Excise Duty 136WH

[Mr Donohoe] Mr Donohoe: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that important point. The issue affects not only Europe. When we compare that with Sweden, Finland Scotland; it equally affects his English constituency. and Ireland, which have particular reasons for having high taxation, we can see the unfairness of the tax for Ian Paisley: I am not the representative of Irish the spirits industry. whiskey, but I do have the Bushmills distillery in my The Scotch Whisky Association, which helped the constituency. It employs 102 people, but it also supports all-party group, has called on the Chancellor to freeze a vital tourist industry; there are more than 140,000 visitors duty on Scotch whisky in the 2014 Budget and to scrap each year to the distillery. Does the hon. Gentleman the escalator. It should be scrapped because UK agree that the tax impacts on jobs not only in Scotland, consumption has declined since it was introduced, and but in my part of the United Kingdom? Indeed, 90% of we want to see the UK market expand. Ernst and what is manufactured in my constituency’s distillery is Young research shows that scrapping the escalator in exported globally, but if the Government continue with 2014 would boost the drinks industry contribution to the escalator we are going to have high taxation on public finance by some £230 million in 2014 alone. products that are exported. That is a bad signal to send Consumers should be treated fairly across the range to an industry. of alcohol products, but Scotch whisky drinkers are being heavily penalised. The sales of Scotch whisky Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Please make form a significant part of the pub trade. Scrapping the interventions brief. There are a lot of Members in this escalator would boost UK sales, and therefore UK jobs room. If everyone has interventions of that length, in the industry. The industry is good not only for Mr Donohoe will run out of time. Scotland, but for the whole of the United Kingdom, because it accounts for more than 25% of all UK food Mr Donohoe: I am grateful, Mrs Main. I hope that exports. That is a significant figure that should not and Members will note what you have said. What the hon. must not be lost on the Treasury. It is good to see the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said is important. Minister in her position this afternoon. He is from another part of the United Kingdom and In 2012, the industry generated £4.27 billion for the correcting this wrong tax at the Budget is as important UK balance of trade and 35,000 jobs. I can see there are to him and his constituents. Members present from the remote areas of Scotland; the industry has been the main employer in many small Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op) towns and villages in their constituencies. It has always rose— been a major contributor to the support of the infrastructure within such communities, and I do not think that that Mr Donohoe: I give way to my hon. Friend the Member has been taken into account by the Government. for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), who is the Some 10,000 of those jobs are directly within the treasurer of the all-party group. industry. Most of them, if not all of them, are in areas of most need, and they have supported the towns and Gemma Doyle: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend communities for many years. The jobs are in rural and for giving way. He will be aware that the whisky industry urban areas, and the industry is the sole employer in is very important for jobs in West Dunbartonshire too. some of the smaller areas in Scotland. Does he share my concern that the concessions previously The Scotch Whisky Association has called on the given to beer and cider are mainly based on the fact that Chancellor to freeze duty on Scotch whisky in 2014—I those industries ran a good campaign? I would not take am sure the Minister has seen that request—and also to that away from them, but we need a more coherent look scrap the escalator. The Chancellor took the decision at excise duty across alcohol products. last year on the basis that he would cancel the escalator for beer and cider, but not for spirits. I think that that is Mr Donohoe: Again, I am grateful for that intervention. unfair and it does not really stack up when one considers I am sure that we have learned a lesson in that respect that the reasoning was to safeguard the jobs in the pub and that we will make damn sure that our campaign this industry. In fact, 40% of the pub industry is down to the time is as good as, if not better than, the beer campaign. sale of spirits, so the matter of unfairness between the pint and the wee dram needs to be looked at. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I am grateful Taking action on Scotch whisky would show that the to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and also for what Government support that major industry both at home he said earlier about the importance of the whisky and abroad—that they support the jobs it creates and industry for jobs in remote communities, such as the do not disproportionately penalise Scotland’s national Isle of Jura and other places in my constituency. It is drink. very unfair that whisky is taxed far more highly than beers and wines. We must be about the only country in Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): My hon. the world that taxes our own product more highly than Friend is making an excellent point about the benefits imported products such as wines. of the Scotch whisky industry to the Treasury and to Scotland in terms of jobs. Does he recognise the broader Mr Donohoe: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his benefits that accrue from jobs in transportation and intervention; he makes a really good point. It is really shipping? South of the border, in my region in the ridiculous that people can go into a supermarket in north-east, jobs are derived from transporting Scotch Spain, Italy, Germany or France and buy a bottle of whisky to Teesport and there are jobs in shipping as the whisky far more cheaply than people in this country product is exported all over the world. can. 137WH Scotch Whisky Excise Duty8 JANUARY 2014 Scotch Whisky Excise Duty 138WH

Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab) market for Scotch whisky, which remains the industry’s rose— third largest market, is diminishing due to excessive tax rises each year? Mr Donohoe: I give way to my hon. Friend, who is the Sales of Scotch whisky in the UK have dropped by chairman of the all-party group. 12% since the duty escalator came into being. Is it possible to hear today what is likely to be in the mind of Jim Sheridan: I want to take my hon. Friend back to the Chancellor? I am sure that the Minister is aware that the important issue of jobs. One of the significant we, as an all-party group, have made a representation to factors of the Scotch whisky industry is that the jobs it him for a meeting. I hope that what she says today will creates are excellent, well-paid, quality jobs. It is possible include an agreement to that meeting. to tell that by the turnover of staff, which is very low. 4.24 pm Mr Donohoe: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan): point he makes, and it is clear that the issue of jobs is It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, part of the equation. Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Mr Donohoe) on securing this debate and I note the (LD): One of the crucial points that the hon. Gentleman wide interest in it, as shown by the number of Members highlighted about the export industry is that the way we here in Westminster Hall. treat our own whisky at home sends a signal to foreign importing markets. It is important to send the right In the time available to me, I will be hard pressed to signal to those markets, so the Treasury needs to consider answer all the questions, however nicely Members indicate the impact that the issue has on the importing countries. to me from a sedentary position that they would like to intervene. However, I shall do my best and if I do not address all the points that have been made today, I will Mr Donohoe: That is a very important point. If we go write to the hon. Gentleman to do so, and he can perhaps to the European Commission and argue with it, there is share that information with other members of the all-party that divide between the north and south of Europe; group and others who are interested. until a few years ago, the Commissioner was very pro-wine and anti-spirits. It is an indicator of the seriousness I start by highlighting the Government’s continued of the situation that we are discriminated against—the commitment to the Scotch whisky industry. First, Scotch Commission throws at us the level of taxation in our whisky is a protected spirit drink, which helps to maintain own country. That is an element that must be addressed its high reputation both at home and abroad. Secondly, by the Chancellor at the Budget. and related to that, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will shortly be launching its spirit drinks verification scheme. Within the first two years of that scheme, every Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): The Government single business involved in the production of Scotch are arguing that the duty on whisky has gone up by 37% whisky will be verified to ensure that they are creating a compared with a rise of 42% on beer. The trouble with genuine product. This will help to protect the industry’s that argument, of course, is that, because the Government deservedly high reputation. In fact, the Scotch Whisky have eliminated the beer escalator, that division will be Association has praised HMRC’s commitment to deliver eliminated very quickly. The point that we have to a scheme that fits its needs. maintain in export terms is that this is a home-based industry. If something is good enough for beer, it is Thirdly, I am proud to report that Scotch whisky of good enough for whisky; the escalator should go and we course featured as one of the first products in the food should ensure that our most successful industry is supported and drink element of the GREAT campaign. This helps competitively at home and abroad. to give Scotch whisky high visibility internationally in key export markets, the importance of which we have already heard about. The Scotch whisky industry is to Mr Donohoe: I could not agree more with the right be congratulated on its export success. The Scotch hon. Gentleman. Whisky Association reports that the value of exports I have taken all the interventions that I will take. I will increased by 11% to almost £2 billion in the first six finish by putting four questions to the Minister. First, months of 2013. That is something that I think everybody can the Treasury explain why it was that, when it in Westminster Hall today will support. I think that stopped the escalator on beer last year to save struggling people will agree that those measures leave no doubt pubs, it failed to look at the situation as far as spirits about the Government’s commitment to the Scotch and wines were concerned? As I said, they account for whisky industry, and I want that message to be heard some 40% of the sales in those very pubs and the rest of and understood by Members from all parts of the the hospitality sector. Given that the Chancellor wanted House. to help that sector, it seems strange that the rise in duty I turn now to duty, because that is the particular issue on whisky was set against that. that the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members, in Secondly, what assessment—if any—has the Treasury their interventions, focused on. made of the impact on pubs of last year’s announcement on beer? I hope I can get a response to that question. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Minister may Thirdly, can the Treasury provide reassurances to the or may not be aware that I have the onerous responsibility Scotch whisky industry that the annual attack on Scotch and the pleasure of representing the heartland area of whisky will come to an end in the Budget in 2014? single malt production, with more than half of all Finally, does the Treasury acknowledge that the home Scotland’s distilleries based in Speyside. I just wanted to 139WH Scotch Whisky Excise Duty8 JANUARY 2014 Scotch Whisky Excise Duty 140WH

[Angus Robertson] employ more staff. That is why this reduction was targeted particularly at pubs. That is not to say that I have not ask her about a basic democratic point. We have heard listened to the hon. Gentleman’s arguments. interventions from Labour Members, the Liberal Democrats Given the Government’s commitment to ensuring and now from the Scottish National party, and Members sustainable public finances, it was not possible to end from those parties make up 58 of the 59 MPs from the escalator on all alcoholic products, so they made a Scotland who are at Westminster, with all of us saying targeted reduction in beer duty. The hon. Gentleman that we want tax fairness and duty fairness. Is the asked whether the Government had failed to consider Minister prepared to confirm that the Government will other alcohol duties. I was not in the Treasury at that actually listen to the views of the overwhelming majority point, but I do not think that that was so. However, the of democratically elected representatives in Westminster decision to reduce the duty on beer was taken in 2013. Hall today and deliver on tax fairness, or not? I have heard the views of hon. Members and I assure them that I will consider these as part of the Budget Nicky Morgan: I hope that the message is going out process. that this Minister is always willing to listen and that she is willing to engage. I am also very willing to have the Graeme Morrice: I congratulate my hon. Friend the meeting that was suggested by the hon. Member for Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) on securing Central Ayrshire. However, I would be a foolish new this debate. The Minister may not be aware that there is Minister if I were to commit to announcing Budget a considerable number of whisky producers in my moves now. Nevertheless, I shall certainly listen; I have constituency, including the North British Distillery in listened; and I shall continue to listen to the debate that West Calder, Glenmorangie and Glen Turner in Livingston, we are having and to the wider representations that have and Ian MacLeod Distillers in Broxburn. This last wrote been made to me. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his to me recently to express concern about the fact that, in intervention. As he said, he has a very onerous task in the past five years, while we have seen a 44% increase representing his constituency; I am sure that his constituency in taxation on whisky, there has been a 12% reduction Fridays are filled with much fun and spirits. in UK sales. I return to the duty escalator, including that on Scotch whisky. I am aware of the industry’s views on the Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Interventions pre-announced alcohol duty rises for 2014. It may be must be brief. helpful if I explain the background to these increases before addressing the specific issues that were raised by Graeme Morrice: Given the current 80% taxation on the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire. Of course, the whisky, will the Minister seriously consider approaching previous Government were responsible for introducing the Chancellor before the March Budget— the spirits duty escalator and are therefore responsible for this year’s increase in spirit duty. The inflation plus Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The Minister. 2% rises were first announced at Budget 2008 and they were extended for a further two years, until 2014-15, at Graeme Morrice: —to look at freezing alcohol duty the March 2010 Budget. These rises were for all alcohol and at the abolition of the duty escalator? duties and, as I say, were legislated for by the previous Government. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Minister. This Government made changes to beer duty at Budget 2013 to support pubs, which, as we all know from our Nicky Morgan: Mrs Main, I take the hint that you constituencies, play an important role in local communities. want me back on my feet and moving towards the The hon. Gentleman asked about the impact of last conclusion of my speech. year’s Budget on pubs and I shall address that issue in a I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will give this moment. However, he also talked about 68% of the matter serious consideration in the run-up to the Budget. alcohol that is sold in pubs being beer, so the changes to I shall certainly discuss it with my colleagues in the beer duty were, overall, a measure to help pubs. I can Treasury, including my right hon. Friend the Chancellor also tell him that although spirits and wine account for of the Exchequer. 41% of sales by value in the off-licence trade, they account for only 23% of sales in pubs by alcohol volume. Jim Sheridan: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Donohoe: I do not know where the Minister got Nicky Morgan: I want to make progress and I am that last figure from. I ran licensed premises, and although keen to get some further points in before the end of the it is perhaps different down here in the south-east, I can debate, but I will try to take the hon. Gentleman’s tell her that in Scotland whisky accounts for at least intervention if I can. 40% of sales in the pub, and in the pub that I ran the The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire mentioned figure was 60%. [Laughter.] that spirit duty had risen by 44% between 2003 and 2013. I should point out that beer duty in that period Nicky Morgan: The hon. Gentleman’s pub sounds as rose by 56%, while still wine duty rose by 68%. We can though it was a very interesting place, and I am very trade as many numbers as we want, but I take the happy to listen to representations on the figures. overall thrust of the arguments made today. The hon. Gentleman asked about the impact of Budget The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) asked 2013 on pubs. The British Beer and Pub Association about the spirits duty rate having risen by 37%. Duty on survey showed that, following a reduction in beer duty, Scotch whisky has risen at a slower rate than beer duty 76% of the pubs would increase investment and 61% would over the medium term. The spirits duty rate was frozen 141WH Scotch Whisky Excise Duty 8 JANUARY 2014 142WH between 1998 and 2008, and during that time duty rates Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire) on other alcoholic beverages increased. However, between the introduction of the escalator and 2013, the spirits 4.35 pm duty rate rose by 37%, while other alcohol duty rates Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I am informed by the rose by 42%. I just wanted to put that on the record for Clerk that because the last debate ended early, an extra the benefit of the House. nine minutes of this sitting is allowed, should people wish to have it. Mr Reid: I want to put it on the record that Islay, not Moray, is the heartland of the Scotch whisky industry. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): It is a proud pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, We can all trade figures, but the point is that under Mrs Main. I am delighted to have been given this the current duty escalator policy, the duty on spirits will opportunity to debate rural broadband in north Yorkshire. rise in the next few years at a much greater rate than that on beers and will make the already unfair situation Before speaking specifically about York and north even more unfair. Yorkshire—the most beautiful area within God’s own county—may I touch briefly on the wider broadband Nicky Morgan: I understand that point. roll-out? I am pleased that, as part of their long-term economic plan, the Government have recognised that Jim Sheridan: One of the best adverts for Scotch the future of our economy rests on the ability of our whisky was the long tradition whereby the Chancellor infrastructure not only to cope with the demands placed used to take a glass of whisky on Budget day. Is there on it, but to exceed those demands and facilitate new any reason why that no longer happens? opportunities for growth. This is no less true of superfast broadband than it is of our rail, road and air infrastructure. Nicky Morgan: The hon. Gentleman is tempting me The Government’s investment in superfast broadband down the path of speculating on the Chancellor’s alcohol is, to my mind, one of their greatest and most important intake, which I really do not want to go down. Of achievements in this Parliament, yet sometimes it does course, I notice that my glass is not in front of me this not get the plaudits it deserves. It has by no means been afternoon. an easy task. It has required huge investment from the Government, totalling roughly £1.6 billion, and some I thank hon. Members for this debate and thank the hard work from all those involved in organising the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire for securing it. I will roll-out, including the people physically on the ground, be happy to study the written report of it. I hope that upgrading the telephone cabinets with the fibre. this debate shows the Government’s continuing commitment to the Scotch whisky industry and that we will help it However, all the hard work and commitment has where we can. been worth it. The recent findings from the UK broadband impact study reveal that for every £1 the Government invest in broadband, the UK economy will benefit by £20. That represents fantastic value for money in the short term. In the short term, the network construction will add around £1.5 billion to the economy, creating 11,000 jobs this year alone. In the longer term, it will increase annual gross value added by £6.3 billion. Its benefits will be spread across the country, with approximately 89% of that in areas outside London and the south-east, such as York and north Yorkshire. That vindicates the Government’s commitment to investing so much in this programme and shows that all the hard work that is being put in on a local level is delivering real results. The roll-out has not been without its problems and it has faced some public criticism for the degree to which one company has achieved a monopoly over the roll-out contracts. There is also some concern about the apparent shortcomings in the contracts, with BT being obliged only to upgrade telephone cabinets with their fibre-to- the-cabinet approach. Some of my constituents have expressed concern that, because they receive their telephone lines from an upgraded cabinet, they are being counted by BT as though they were part of the 90%, despite being too far away from the cabinet to receive the upgraded superfast internet speeds. However, I have received assurances from the chief executive of BT Openreach that that is not the case, and that only those who receive superfast speeds are counted. Superfast North Yorkshire has subsequently clarified that, although there may be issues about how coverage is measured in other parts of the country, the north Yorkshire contract only counts those who are capable of receiving superfast speeds. 143WH Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire)8 JANUARY 2014 Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire) 144WH

[Julian Sturdy] A constituent of mine from Askham Bryan informs me that the maximum download speed he can obtain is Locally, the roll-out so far has been a roaring success. 1.2 megabits per second, which is typical of the rest of The project, which has been overseen by Superfast the village. He says: North Yorkshire, has been run well. When it first set out “1.2 mbps permits basic web usage such as email and relatively on its mission, it had a total of 670 cabinets to be slow browsing. However, any attempt to stream data-hungry upgraded—I think the technical term is “deployed”—but, applications such as live TV are not possible. Multiple users to date, 350 cabinets have been upgraded, which marks online at the same time in the same household also seriously 52% of the total. However, it is expected that this figure compromises the performance of even basic applications.” will rise to 370 next week, ensuring that the project is My constituent relocated to Askham Bryan from London well over halfway to completion. without moving jobs, under the presumption that the investment in broadband in the region would enable him In north Yorkshire, roughly one cabinet is updated to access facilities such as web-based video conferencing, per working day. As a result, phase 1 of the roll-out is which have become the norm for many and would suit expected to be completed by October 2014, well ahead the flexible working arrangements that he has put in of the national target, which originally intended to place for himself. provide only 90% of all households with speeds of up to 25 megabits per second by the end of 2015. That target True to form, Superfast North Yorkshire has been now appears to have been pushed back, and phase 1 excellent at engaging with our local rural communities, might not be achieved nationally until the end of 2016. and the chief executive officer has met Askham Bryan Will the Minister clarify that? What might that do to the parish council to discuss the problems it faces and the expected release of phase 2 funding? potential solutions. In the specific case of Askham Bryan, it is increasingly likely that other technologies, Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I congratulate such as fixed wireless, 4G or satellite broadband, will my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He paints a need to be deployed to provide the village with the positive picture, with which I agree, of how north speeds it needs and deserves. The parish council has Yorkshire is delivering superfast broadband because of contacted independent wireless broadband providers, the Conservative-led Government’s money. Does he which have explained that the technology is available to agree that the National Audit Office report, which was the village and is relatively simple to implement. The very critical of the Government and BT, surprisingly lack of certainty on the future direction of the roll-out, did not even consult on the north Yorkshire example however, has prevented the parish council from going and that in future the NAO should look more closely at any further. what we are doing in north Yorkshire? That point is important because the wireless broadband providers appear to be willing to invest their time and Julian Sturdy: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. money if there is a chance that BT will subsequently North Yorkshire’s achievements are a glowing example upgrade the village’s cabinet. As such, much greater of what can be done at local level. I am surprised that clarity is needed on the future of the roll-out so that north Yorkshire was not part of the investigation. communities on the wrong side of the digital divide are Take-up of superfast broadband in north Yorkshire able to plan their next steps based on certainties rather is outpacing the national average by a considerable than possibilities. margin. After 12 months, take-up in the north Yorkshire intervention area is 13.4%, which proves that Superfast Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): North Yorkshire’s demand-stimulation activity is working My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, and I extremely well. It also demonstrates that there is latent strongly support his argument on the success of the demand for superfast broadband in the rural areas roll-out of superfast broadband across our county. He around north Yorkshire and York. I am sure that north makes a powerful point on extending the roll-out beyond Yorkshire colleagues here today can testify to that and the 90% target. Does he agree that we now face the have many examples from their constituencies. question of how we achieve that next stage? Superfast broadband makes an enormous difference, and he has The achievements of Superfast North Yorkshire are articulated the challenges that face the broadband have-nots, remarkable given that it is dealing with one of the country’s including some of the villages in his constituency. The most rural counties. The county’s rurality, however, also same applies to villages such as Lower Dunsforth and has its drawbacks. Although I have no doubt that others in my Harrogate and Knaresborough constituency, Superfast North Yorkshire will meet its 90% coverage and it is important that such communities are able to target well before the rest of the country, I remain access broadband as quickly as possible. concerned that there is a deepening digital divide between the 90% and the 10%, who appear to be being left behind Julian Sturdy: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. by phase 1 of the roll-out. All Members representing north Yorkshire and York I see the divide first hand in my constituency. will have examples in their constituency of communities Communities such as Haxby, Wigginton, Dunnington that are suffering from the digital divide and that are and Elvington are already enjoying the benefits of superfast among the 10% rather than the 90%. It is important speeds, which are coming soon to areas such as Wheldrake. that we have clarity on where we are going, and I am Even small, quiet villages in my constituency, such as sure the Minister will set that out, as he has in the past. Rufforth and Stockton-on-the-Forest, have recently had We need that clarity for the future so that we may build their cabinets upgraded, yet there remain a number of on the success of what has already been achieved in small communities in my constituency that are sadly north Yorkshire. too far from the local cabinet to benefit. Those communities We must not forget the role of local authorities. In my include Askham Bryan, Askham Richard, Hessay, Acaster constituency, I have been encouraged by the levels of Malbis, parts of Naburn and Holtby to name a few. communication between Superfast North Yorkshire 145WH Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire)8 JANUARY 2014 Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire) 146WH and City of York council. Superfast North Yorkshire is important programme with the necessary resources and encouraging the council to contribute to an intermediary to ensure that we make the most of the new technologies project that will enable Superfast North Yorkshire to available to us. continue extending coverage to some of the most rural I am again thankful for the opportunity to speak. areas. The Government pride themselves on rewarding those Superfast North Yorkshire has successfully pulled who work hard and want to get on. Superfast North together a further £8 million for the project to extend Yorkshire has worked tremendously hard, and I hope phase 1 of the roll-out, which will potentially increase that the Government will give it what it needs to finish coverage to between 92% and 93% of the county. That the job. sum is made up of £3 million contributed by North Yorkshire county council, £3 million from the European Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con) rose— regional development fund and £2 million from Broadband Delivery UK’s contingency fund, for which my north Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The debate will Yorkshire colleagues and I, ably led by my hon. Friend finish at 5.9 pm. Does the hon. Gentleman have the the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), permission of the Minister and of the Member who assisted in lobbying. secured the debate to make a brief speech? Given the pace of the roll-out in north Yorkshire and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, the European regulations that are in place, the additional Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey) indicated assent. pot of money will not get Superfast North Yorkshire past the summer of 2015 before its hugely successful Julian Sturdy indicated assent. programme comes to a grinding halt. All that will be left is a wait for the next tranche of Government funding Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I call Nigel Adams. for phase 2. Given the complexities of procurement, planning and the roll-out, it would be a tremendous 4.52 pm shame for Superfast North Yorkshire to have to kick-start Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): Thank you, the roll-out again in 2016. During a 12-month shutdown Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Superfast North Yorkshire would, due to its own success, York Outer (Julian Sturdy)—my constituency neighbour lose many of the skills it has built up. —on securing the debate. I also refer the Chair and hon. Whether City of York council’s executive chooses to Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ contribute to the £8 million project is entirely at its Financial Interests. own discretion. I am led to believe, however, that of the I start by congratulating Superfast North Yorkshire, £530 million granted to local authorities from central BT and the Government—for the cash—as we have Government, City of York council was allocated some made good progress in a relatively short space of time. £1.4 million. I therefore call on the council’s executive With the project now halfway through and the target of to honour its responsibility to the communities in my 90% of homes having access to superfast broadband constituency I have mentioned and to ensure that that well down the track, the problem is that some villages important Government funding is well spent. will achieve only 2 megabits. They can see that that is I finally come to the central purpose of the debate. the case and feel that they are being left in the slow lane. From the Minister’s recent response to my question, I A constituency such as Selby and Ainsty faces real am aware that the finer details of the phase 2 roll-out challenges. There are well over 100 villages. Many of are still being worked out. Given the fantastic work of them are on the border with other local authorities, Superfast North Yorkshire and its partners, however, where the exchange is across that border. Residents in I ask the Government to look seriously at granting the villages such as Ryther, which currently has a 365 kilobit region an early release of the next phase of funding. download speed, Newton Kyme, Catterton, Bickerton, I have already touched on the several strong reasons Kirkby Overblow, Ulleskelf, Fairburn and many more for doing so. Take-up in north Yorkshire is well ahead have all expressed frustration at the pace of roll-out. of the national average, which proves that there is latent The problem appears to be the lack of a transparent demand for rural broadband in the region. Superfast plan to deliver the committed 2 megabits to the remaining North Yorkshire has achieved great things across the 10%. The fact that the people who currently get the region and the hard work that has been put in deserves worst speeds have no visibility on when or whether they to be rewarded. It has not let the absence of further will be upgraded gives rise to considerable concern. I funding hold it back, but even after taking the initiative understand that Superfast North Yorkshire is about to and securing extra money for the interim period, it is leaflet every home in north Yorkshire to ensure that people unlikely to get beyond the summer of 2015. Finally, are aware of the need to order the upgrade, because if considering the fantastic pace that the roll-out has they do not order it, they will not get it. Doing so might gathered in north Yorkshire, it would be an awful shame make the last 5% highly visible. It is now clear which for those who have worked so hard to have to kick-start areas are at risk of not being upgraded. They are the the roll-out again in 2016 after an indefinite pause. areas with the strongest support for the roll-out programme, To those points, I would like to add a further call on because speeds are currently the lowest. They are also the Government to provide greater clarity over the the areas that would have been the most supportive of future of the roll-out—I hope the Minister can do that the spending of the additional funds to upgrade the in his remarks—so that those communities left behind service. They might now be realising that they could see by the digital divide can plan ahead for how they will no improvement from that investment. try to bridge it. While I welcome the additional £10 million for broadband as part of the national infrastructure Julian Smith: Does my hon. Friend agree that, in plan announced in the recent autumn statement, I appeal addition to clarity on the 2 megabit issue that he so to the Government to continue to support that hugely eloquently articulates, BT’s feet must be held to the fire 147WH Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire)8 JANUARY 2014 Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire) 148WH

[Julian Smith] rural broadband programme, because it was oven-ready, as it were, when the programme was announced. That is with regard to the cabinets across north Yorkshire that why, while I will go on to talk about the general success it originally said were commercially viable? It now says of the rural broadband programme, North Yorkshire that they are not, leaving communities such as Cononley stands out as one of the most successful areas. in my constituency stuck between what they thought was going to be commercially viable and being outside Julian Smith: Just to extend the mutual congratulations the intervention area. slightly, I want to put on the record our thanks to the Minister for being so responsive over the past few years Nigel Adams: As usual, my hon. Friend is spot on. to relentless e-mails and letters from all of us. His His remark leads quite nicely on to my next point. One responsiveness has made a massive difference. of the features of the contract is that if take-up is high, money can be clawed back and then used to extend the Mr Vaizey: I am grateful, but perhaps we had better project to further cabinets. For that reason, encouraging stop there, Mrs Main, and get to the substance of the people to sign up for faster speeds is extremely important. debate, or people will start to turn against us. I take issue with something that my hon. Friend the North Yorkshire is one of the largest rural broadband Member for York Outer mentioned. Take-up has actually projects in the country. It was the first to get under way been relatively modest. Good areas typically have 25% under our rural broadband programme. We have put to 30%. I am quite happy to be put right on that, but I almost £18 million into the project, together with more am sure that take-up has been significantly less in other than £8 million of European funding—if I am allowed areas. That may be partly due to the lack of clarity to say that in public—and £9 million from BT, making a about needing to place an order, which will hopefully total investment of more than £35 million. The project be put right, or it might be that people who already have is now on track to be completed by October this year, 10 megabits or more simply think that there is no need which is ahead of schedule. We also recognise the need to upgrade to get 40 megabits. to do more, and partly in response to the relentless Finally, the vision for this excellent project was to provide e-mails, letters and conversations, we allocated a further superfast broadband for 90% and at least 2 megabits to £3 million to North Yorkshire, because that leveraged 10% and to revitalise rural economies. That vision an additional £5 million of funding from the local council generated support and enthusiasm for the project. Just and in European money, allowing coverage to be extended because it is hard does not mean that we should be further. walking away from delivering something that was initially As for what we have achieved so far, the current so enthusiastically received. In the next of my regular contract will get 670 cabinets enabled for superfast communications with Superfast North Yorkshire and broadband, which will deliver 168,000 premises as passed. BT, I hope to be given some comfort as to how the Mindful of the point made by my hon. Friend the remaining 10% will be addressed. Member for York Outer about distinguishing between access to fibre and getting superfast speeds, I can say 4.56 pm that that means 150,000 premises achieving speeds greater The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, than 25 megabits. It is important to stress that we Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a pleasure to distinguish between those who have access to cabinets serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate that have been enabled for superfast broadband and my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer (Julian those who actually receive the speeds, because we recognise Sturdy) on securing the debate, and I am pleased to that some premises are too far from the cabinets to get see him joined by my hon. Friends the Members for the designated speeds. Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), for Harrogate and More than half the cabinets have been deployed so Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) and for Selby and Ainsty far, which is 350, or 52% of the total; 95,000 premises (Nigel Adams). As one can see as the camera pans have been passed, or 57% of the total; and 86,000 of around, God’s own county is represented by four of the those premises receive speeds of 25 megabits or more. finest elected representatives to be found in any legislature By the end of next week, we expect 370 cabinets to have in the world. It is a testament to their power and been enabled, so the project is going well. It is important influence that not a single member of the Opposition to stress that this has been helped not only by the has dared to turn up to challenge anything that my hon. assiduous nature of the MPs’ holding the Government Friends have to say. to account, but by NYnet on the ground and a proactive Now that I have taken my tongue out of my cheek, I council, which have been vital. Some people have criticised must say in all seriousness, for the edification of their the way in which we have gone about working with local constituents and any local journalists watching the debate, councils, rather than having a national tender, for example, that my hon. Friends have been assiduous in lobbying but having councils that are partners with BT has made for their constituencies and to secure the best settlement a huge difference, because it joins up with things such as in order to deliver the best broadband deal for their planning to ensure that broadband is rolled out all the constituents, because they understand its importance. more speedily. They have been aided and abetted by John Moore, the Despite criticism of the programme, the results are chief executive of NYnet, which is the company set up now beginning to speak for themselves. For example, in to deliver broadband to North Yorkshire, as well as the Rutland more than 9,000 premises have been passed, excellently led, Conservative North Yorkshire council. and we expect that project to conclude by the summer; It is important to explain to those who might be new to 95 more communities in Norfolk are now accessing the broadband debate that North Yorkshire was one of fibre broadband, thanks to the programme; and in the first councils to participate in the Government’s Suffolk, 90 miles of fibre cable have been laid, and 149WH Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire)8 JANUARY 2014 Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire) 150WH

10,000 homes and businesses are getting broadband on the ground can change, so there needs to be a degree three months ahead of schedule, with a further 2,500 of flexibility and give and take. I can, however, again premises in 16 communities getting it in the autumn. assure my hon. Friends that when BT finds that a Many authorities are going further than our original cabinet is not commercially viable and seeks to put it target of 90%: Cambridgeshire is going for 98%; Lancashire into the rural programme, we do have detailed discussions. 97%; Rutland 94%; and Wales, which has passed Likewise, sometimes there are parts of the rural programme 100,000 premises and is now six months ahead of schedule, that become commercially viable. 96%. By the end of 2013, with 43 out of 44 projects As for clawing money back from BT when take-up is signed, half of them already had live coverage. Superfast higher, I assure my hon. Friends that where the take-up Cornwall has seen more than 194,000 premises passed of broadband exceeds the target set under the contract, by fibre and is aiming for 95% of fibre coverage. Northern we do claw money back. That money is put back into Ireland has more than 90% of fibre coverage. the programme in order to extend coverage further. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to BT and its Finally, I assure my hon. Friends that we are also engineers. Over the Christmas period, all of us have looking at the £10 million that the Chancellor has seen, or experienced, the horrendous weather that led to allocated to us to take superfast broadband from 95% trouble with power lines and so on. The flooding still to 100%. That is money for test-bed experiments. It is afflicts a great many areas of the country. Throughout important to stress that, in particular in rural areas, that entire period, however, BT engineers were working prices rise exponentially for that very last 5%. to meet their milestones. I have been told stories of engineers working with water up to their shoulders as Nigel Adams rose— they were preparing to lay fibre, or working in holes where the pumps had to be kept on permanently to keep Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I call Julian Sturdy. the water from flooding them, so that the milestones I am sorry, I mean Nigel Adams. could be met. BT gets a lot of criticism for the programme, but most of it is unwarranted. It is worth our pausing to Nigel Adams: I aspire to be like my hon. Friend the pay tribute to the work of the BT engineers, in particular Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy). over this Christmas period. On the core points made by my hon. Friends, I would Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I am sorry; I was not characterise the tone of their remarks as, “It’s going wearing my glasses. well, but could do better.” We could do better in two or three areas, the first of which might be the allocation of Nigel Adams: Does the Minister have any experience the next £250 million. It is worth making the point that, of hard-to-reach areas in other parts of the country having allocated a little more than £500 million to reach implementing wi-fi solutions? Does he have any knowledge 90% superfast broadband, the Chancellor has allocated of the take-up, or experience of how well such solutions a further £250 million to reach 95%. We want to get that work? In one of my villages, Ulleskelf, I helped to launch money allocated as soon as possible. a wi-fi service more than a year ago. My understanding I was not in a hole up to my shoulders in water, but is that the take-up has been low— I can assure my hon. Friends that my officials and I and BT were all looking at the issue over the Christmas and Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The Minister new year period. We hope to make an announcement needs the remaining 40 seconds to respond. shortly, but I know that they appreciate that we have to get it right and ensure that the money is allocated Mr Vaizey: There are individual solutions and it is properly and fairly. I can be certain, however, that good important that we remain open to them. I receive e-mails partners like North Yorkshire will, I hope, receive from individual providers which claim that they can appropriate funding to carry on their good work. provide commercial solutions for the last 5%. It is important that we hear from all potential providers, Furthermore, it is important to acknowledge, as I which is why we have set aside that money to stress-test have already done, that there is a difference between a solutions before making that final allocation to get us fibre-enabled cabinet and people getting superfast access. to 100% superfast broadband. I reassure my hon. Friends that we make the distinction. They also mentioned the concern about BT first saying Question put and agreed to. that a cabinet is commercially viable, but then saying that it is not and that it should be part of the rural 5.8 pm roll-out. Detailed planning is undertaken, but circumstances Sitting adjourned.

15WS Written Statements8 JANUARY 2014 Written Statements 16WS

on the Government’s environmental objectives relating Written Statement to air navigation in the UK, including the need to improve the efficiency of our UK airspace network. Wednesday 8 January 2014 The second is a reaffirmation of the need to consult local communities near airports when airspace changes are being considered in the vicinity of these airports. The guidance now reflects significant developments TRANSPORT such as the creation of the future airspace strategy and single European sky, and the aviation policy framework. Air Navigation Guidance Although this guidance has been prepared, consulted on and revised by the Government separately from the Airports Commission’s work, it is notable that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport clarity it brings around the introduction of performance- (Mr Robert Goodwill): Today I am pleased to announce based navigation routes at our major airports and the the publication of a revised version of the air navigation need for greater delegation of decision-making powers guidance. I am grateful for the technical assistance over airspace changes to the CAA are in line with the of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and the input of findings of the commission’s recently published interim those who responded to the consultation—carried out report. The Government’s full response to the report in summer 2013. A summary of the responses to the will follow in the spring. In the meantime, this publication consultation and the Government’s reply to these responses demonstrates the Government’s desire to act quickly to is being published alongside the new guidance. make the best use of existing capacity. Under the Transport Act 2000, the CAA is required to take account of environmental guidance given to it A copy of the guidance can be found on my Department’s by the Secretary of State when exercising its air navigation website at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/air- functions. The new guidance has two key objectives. navigation-guidance and I will place copies in the Libraries The first is to provide the CAA with additional clarity of both Houses.

7P Petitions8 JANUARY 2014 Petitions 8P

possible that this proposal may, at some future date, Petitions come before him, it would be inappropriate to comment on the specific case raised in the petition. However, in Wednesday 8 January 2014 general, the National Planning Policy Framework makes it clear that existing open space should not be built on unless: OBSERVATIONS an assessment has been undertaken which has clearly shown the open space, buildings or land to be surplus to requirements; or the loss resulting from the proposed development would be replaced by equivalent or better provision in terms of quantity COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT and quality in a suitable location; or the development is for alternative sports and recreational Development of a Public Open Space near Astro Grove provision, the needs for which clearly outweigh the loss. (Longton, Stoke-on-Trent) It is, of course, open to a member of the public aggrieved by a local authority’s actions to apply for The Petition of residents of Stoke-on-Trent, judicial review if they believe the actions were wrong in Declares that land transferred to Stoke-on-Trent City law, or they can ask the Local Government Ombudsman Council by the Highways Agency in 1997, to compensate to investigate if they consider that injustice has been for the loss of public space from the construction of the caused to them as a result of maladministration. A50 road, should retain its intended usage and function as a public space. The land in question, near to Astro Redevelopment of the Old Royal Ordnance Factory Site Grove, in Longton, Stoke-on-Trent, exists as a Public (Puriton, Somerset) Open Space (POS) and thus restrictions are in place to The Petition of residents of Puriton, Somerset, limit its usage and to prevent development on the site. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the proposed Stoke-on-Trent City Council has also received funding redevelopment of the old Royal Ordnance Factory site to carry out appropriate landscape treatment on this is unacceptable on grounds of air pollution, noise, site in order to retain its function. village access, visual impact and the overall character of The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the development. Commons ensures that this land is not to be sold for The Petitioners therefore request that the House any development, and is only to be kept and maintained of Commons take note of the plans in advance of for leisure purposes, in line with the requirements of the consideration by the local planning authority. Public Open Space order. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr Ian And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Robert Liddell-Grainger, Official Report, 7 November 2013; Flello, Official Report, 12 November 2013; Vol. 570, Vol. 570, c. 522.] c. 925.] [P001275] [P001285] Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government: and Local Government: Local authorities have general and discretionary powers The Secretary of State for Communities and Local under section l23 of the Local Government Act 1972 Government is aware that a planning application has and section 233 of the Town and Country Planning Act been submitted to Sedgemoor District Council in respect 1990 to dispose of land. of the above development. Local authorities have the statutory responsibility for For these purposes, open space is defined in section 336(1) considering proposals for development in their areas. of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 as: Planning law requires that applications for planning “....any land laid out as a public garden, or used for the purposes permission must be determined in accordance with the of public recreation, or land which is a disused burial ground”. statutory development plan for the area unless material A local authority proposing to dispose of open space considerations indicate otherwise. These material must give notice in a local newspaper and consider any considerations include national planning policy. Local objections received before disposing of the land. authorities will also take into account representations In relation to allowing development on open space, from the local community on the planning merits of the day-to-day planning control is the responsibility of the proposal. local planning authority, and it would not be appropriate The National Planning Policy Framework makes it for the Secretary of State to comment on the case. In clear that an application for renewable or low carbon determining a planning application for development, energy development should only be approved if the the local planning authority, who will have a good impact is—or can be made—acceptable. To help implement knowledge of the local circumstances, are required to the framework, the Department for Communities and have regard to all material considerations including the Local Government published on 29 July new planning development plan, national policies and views expressed practice guidance for renewable and low carbon energy, by the community and third parties. setting out clearly that the need for renewable energy The Secretary of State for Communities and Local does not automatically override environmental protections Government has the power to call-in a planning application and the planning concerns of local communities. for his own determination, if he considers that it raises Through a series of reforms the Government are matters of more than local importance, but his policy is making the planning process more accessible to local to be very selective in the exercise of this power. As it is communities because planning works best when 9P Petitions8 JANUARY 2014 Petitions 10P communities themselves have the opportunity to influence Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: the decisions that affect their lives. Due to the Secretary The Department continues to strongly support of State’s role in the planning system it would not be improvements to access for disabled passengers at UK appropriate to comment further on the application. railway stations. We have therefore continued with the £370 million Access for All programme, launched in 2006 as part of TRANSPORT the Railways for All Strategy, which will provide an accessible route at more than 150 stations by 2015. One Heaton Chapel Train Station (Stockport) hundred and five of these projects are now complete The Petition of Friends of Heaton Chapel train station, and to date over 1,100 stations have also received smaller Declares that 619,506 passengers purchase tickets at scale access improvements. To build on this success we Heaton Chapel train station every year; further declares have made £100 million available to extend the programme that there is currently no disabled access to the train from its scheduled close in 2015 until 2019. station; further declares that Heaton Chapel train station Stations are selected for this funding based on their is not compliant with national legislation; and further annual footfall, weighted by the incidence of disability declares that accessibility for disabled people at Heaton in the area and taking into account other factors such Chapel train station must be improved and barriers to as proximity to local hospitals or the availability of transport removed in accordance with the Department third-party funding. Around a third will also be selected for Transport’s March 2006 “Railways for All” strategy. to ensure a fair geographical spread across the country. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of We are also keen to reflect the preferences of the Commons urges the Department for Transport to work industry in selecting stations. The train operating companies, in conjunction with Transport for Greater Manchester, in consultation with local transport authorities and Stockport MBC, Network Rail and Northern Rail to Network Rail, were therefore asked to nominate stations undertake an urgent feasibility study setting out a business for the extended programme by 15 November 2013. case to support the provision of new disabled access Although 277 stations were nominated, Heaton Chapel facilities and further requests that the House urges the was not included. It will therefore not be considered for Department for Transport to give greater priority to the Access for All programme before 2019. improve Greater Heaton Chapel train station over all In the meantime Northern Rail meet their obligations other less well used stations in Greater Manchester. under the Equality Act 2010 by making reasonable And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by adjustments to ensure disabled access to their services. Ann Coffey, Official Report, 5 December 2013; Vol. 571, For example, for those who cannot use the steep ramps c. 1191.] to the platforms at Heaton Chapel can request a free [P001308] taxi to the next station that they are able to access. 231W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 232W

There are compelling strategic reasons for the TTIP. Written Answers to It demonstrates clear EU-US leadership on the trade agenda and a firm commitment to liberalisation and Questions open markets. This is an important opportunity to establish 21st century trade rules. The TTIP is also central to the Government’s vision of a reformed EU Wednesday 8 January 2014 which is more competitive and able to deliver jobs and growth for its citizens. Negotiations are progressing as planned, with three HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION rounds completed. The negotiations will be tough but we hope that a deal can be reached by early 2015. Hays The TTIP is a top priority for the Government. It has the potential to be the largest bilateral trade agreement Mr Spellar: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, in history and to bring significant economic benefits, in Sutherland and Easter Ross representing the House terms of growth and jobs, to both sides of the Atlantic. of Commons Commission, how much the House of It could add as much as £10 billion annually to the UK Commons Service has paid Hays in the last 12 months; economy in the long-term. and how much was paid to Hays in that period to If Scotland were to receive a proportionate share of advertise positions in the House Service. [181485] the projected UK export gains then we might expect an annual increase in Scottish exports of £1.4 billion. John Thurso: For the period January to December 2013, Hays received payments totalling £316,863, to EU Law provide recruitment administration for the House Service and a website for 103 recruitment campaigns. Of this, Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State £142,527 was spent on recruitment advertising. for Business, Innovation and Skills when the EU Accounting and Transparency Directives are to be transposed into UK law. [181382] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Jenny Willott: The transposition deadlines for the Business: Scotland Accounting Directive (2013/34/EU) and Transparency Directive (2013/50EU) are 20 July 2015 and 26 November Mr McKenzie: To ask the Secretary of State for 2015 respectively. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking As noted in the Lough Erne G8 Leaders Communiqué to encourage businesses to relocate to the west coast of of June 2013, EU members of the G8 Scotland. [181055] “will quickly implement the EU Accounting and Transparency Matthew Hancock [holding answer 6 January 2014]: Directives”. The UK benefits from its shared business framework The Government will publish a consultation on the with free movement of goods and services, capital and transposition of the extractive industries reporting people. It provides a foundation for businesses, from requirements of the directives shortly. Consultation on starting up to hiring employees, accessing capital and other aspects of the directives will follow. patenting new ideas to encourage businesses to expand and grow in the UK, including on the west coast of Higher Education: Finance Scotland. The UK Government also provides direct assistance such as the Enterprise Finance Guarantee Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme. Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the written Through devolution, Scottish businesses benefit from ministerial statement of 19 November 2013, Official the best of both worlds, as business support is a devolved Report, column 43WS, on student support in England, matter, and delivery is the responsibility of the Scottish what estimate his Department has made of the savings Government. resulting from the decision to instruct the 23 alternative providers to suspend recruitment of students for EU External Trade: USA Higher National Certificates and Higher National Diplomas in the current academic year; and whether he Mr McKenzie: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to continue this policy in future years. [179016] Business, Innovation and Skills what recent progress has been made on the EU/US trade agreement; how Mr Willetts [holding answer 12 December 2013]: As I that agreement would benefit Scotland; and if he will announced in my written ministerial statement of make a statement. [181060] 19 November 2013, Official Report, column 43WS, ’Student Support in England’, we have taken action to Michael Fallon: The UK has consistently pushed for deal with those providers who have undertaken aggressive an ambitious and broad agreement under the Transatlantic recruitment in 2013/14. Higher national certificates (HNC)/ Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) that eliminates higher national diplomas (HND) are valuable qualifications the vast majority of tariffs, addresses behind-the-border but, in order to manage their growth, my officials have barriers across sectors and seeks to achieve regulatory written to the 23 alternative providers that are expanding coherence between Europe and the US. We are working most rapidly to instruct them to recruit no more HNC/ with the Commission and other member states to develop HND students for 2013/14. It is too early to make a comprehensive agreement which reflects UK priorities. reliable estimates of the savings that will result. The 233W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 234W suspensions applied to the 23 alternative providers are Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for the temporary. They will remain in place until we apply full Home Department what programmes for rehabilitation time student number controls to alternative providers in and assistance of trafficking victims are offered to 2014/15. From 2015/16, we will allow student numbers victims beyond the 45 day recovery and reflection at high quality alternative providers to be freed in a period; and if she will make a statement. [181076] similar manner as for HEFCE-funded provision, but we will continue to retain a control on numbers at James Brokenshire: The Government funds a 45-day higher risk provision. reflection and recovery period for victims of human trafficking who have been identified through the National Referral Mechanism. Once the period in funded support comes to an end, individuals, who have a right to reside HOME DEPARTMENT in the UK may be helped to access wider support from local authorities and other mainstream support providers. If a victim wishes to return to their home country, and Human Trafficking it is safe to do so, they will be supported in their return by the appropriate authorities. Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for the Individuals without leave to remain in the UK, or Home Department how many victims of human without an outstanding immigration claim, are expected trafficking were identified by healthcare providers in to return home voluntarily and will be supported to do each of the last three years; and if she will make a so safely. statement. [181069] Khat James Brokenshire: We do not hold this information. Information on victims of human trafficking is recorded by the National Referral Mechanism (NRM). The Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for the information is collected by referrals made by first responders, Home Department what assessment she has made of which include the police, National Crime Agency and the effect of a prohibition on khat on (a) the street the Gangmasters Licensing Authority.Health care providers price of that drug and (b) crime levels in Yemen and are currently not designated as first responders, but we Somali communities. [178333] keep this issue under constant review. Norman Baker: A regulatory assessment of the Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government’s proposals to control khat and introduce Home Department what recent estimates she has made an escalation framework for the proportionate policing of the number of potential cases of trafficking for of khat possession offences was published with the labour exploitation in (a) England, (b) Scotland, (c) draft legislation when it was laid before Parliament on 31 October 2013. Wales and (d) Northern Ireland. [181071] (a) Factors which influence the price of controlled James Brokenshire: Data from the National Referral drugs in the illicit trade are complex. By controlling Mechanism includes information on identified exploitation khat the aim is to curtail its availability and reduce types within each of the countries of the United Kingdom. demand. It is expected that any subsequent increase in Quarterly statistics are published on the website of the the price of khat will further reduce demand. National Crime Agency: (b) It is too early to determine this accurately. www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk The Government will lead communications activity on khat targeted at the affected communities and provide Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for the access to treatment and support for users and their Home Department what training and support is families. provided to first responders, including civil society and local authorities, in identifying trafficking for labour Police: Greater London exploitation. [181073] Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: First responder organisations are Home Department how many incidents the Metropolitan those law enforcement, non-governmental organisations Police Service attended in each year since 2005. [181395] and statutory bodies that are able to directly refer potential victims of trafficking to the National Referral Damian Green: The Home Office does not hold data Mechanism (NRM) for assessment and access to support. on the number of incidents that the Metropolitan Police Organisations are expected to demonstrate their knowledge attended in these years. For recent years, data are available and understanding of different types of trafficking as on the number of incidents recorded by the Metropolitan part of the application process. Police, but not whether these were attended or not. Many groups, including first responders, run their own programmes of awareness raising and training for Police: Information their own and other organisations. On 3 December 2013, the Secretary of State for the Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member Home Department pursuant to the answer of 12 November for Maidenhead (Mrs May), announced a review of the 2013, Official Report, column 546W,on police: information, NRM. The detail and terms of reference for the review (1) if she will personally review the guidance on the use are being considered at the moment. of police information notices; [181280] 235W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 236W

(2) if she will discuss the issuing of police information 13. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for notices with the Association of Chief Police Officers Wales what progress has been made on the roll-out of and the National Policing Improvement Agency; broadband in Wales; and if he will make a statement. [181281] [901775] (3) for what reason the guidance on the issuing of police information notices has not been updated since Stephen Crabb: The roll-out of superfast broadband 2009; [181282] in Wales as a result of our £57 million investment is progressing at pace and I am taking a very close interest (4) whether she is satisfied that the guidance on the in the Welsh Government’s implementation of this project use of police information notices (a) represents best to ensure that all parts of Wales benefit from this UK practice and (b) is fit for the purpose for which it is Government funding. intended. [181283] Shale Gas Norman Baker: Any decision to review or update police guidance on Police Information Notices is an operational 10. Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales matter for the College of Policing. I am encouraged that what discussions he has had on the potential benefits of the National Policing Lead on stalking and the Director shale gas extraction to Wales. [901772] of Public Prosecutions have committed to establishing a Joint National Protocol to drive improvements in the Mr David Jones: The shale gas industry has the investigation of stalking and harassment. The new Protocol potential to create thousands of jobs and support the will challenge the inappropriate use of Police Information UK’s overall energy security—benefits that are worth Notices. exploring further. On 17 December, we launched a If my Honourable Friend has specific concerns, consultation on our Strategic Environmental Assessment I would encourage him to write to me. which sets out the potential economic and environmental effects of further oil and gas activity in Great Britain. Translation Services Autumn Statement Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much her Department 12. Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for and its agencies spent on interpreters and translation Wales what assessment he has made of the effects on services in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [176911] Wales of the measures announced in the autumn statement. [901774] James Brokenshire [holding answer 22 November 2013]: The Home Department and its agencies’ spend on Mr David Jones: The autumn statement sets out further interpreters and translation services in the financial action to deliver a responsible recovery and reinforces year (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13 is as the Government’s commitment to Wales. follows: We are providing additional resources to the Welsh Home Office and agency spend on interpreting and translation services Government, we are helping people in Wales by making £ million a real difference to the cost of living, and we are making Category 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 sure that work pays. Interpreters/ 6.95 6.74 6.38 translators The figures include spend on interpreters/translators, TREASURY payments for interpreter or translator services including Business: Investment transcripts and tutoring. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to paragraph 1.50, page 23 of the autumn WALES statement 2013, for what reasons business investment is expected to fall by 5.5 per cent in 2013; and what Broadband assessment he has made of the implications for government policy of such a reduction. [181731] 9. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he has taken to ensure that isolated Nicky Morgan: The Office for Budget Responsibility properties in Wales not included in Welsh Government (OBR) expect business investment to have grown through community schemes or the BT roll-out receive quality 2013, with their December 2013 Economic and fiscal broadband. [901771] outlook forecasting 1.7% growth from the end of 2012 to the end of 2013. However, because of a fall in the Stephen Crabb: Our National Infrastructure Plan level of investment at the end of 2012, the total amount published last month included a new £10 million fund of business investment in 2013 is expected to be lower to address those areas not included in the existing than in 2012, falling 5.3%. roll-out across the UK. We will work with the Welsh The OBR, Bank of England and HM Treasury have Government to identify innovative projects to address cited two key reasons for weaker than expected business the hardest to reach parts of Wales which may be investment during the recovery; weak lending to businesses eligible, including those in the hon. Gentleman’s and high levels of uncertainty. Recent indicators suggest constituency. each of these factors has improved through 2013, with a 237W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 238W range of surveys and statistics suggesting improving Inflation: Housing credit conditions and falling uncertainty, supporting investment. Steve Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Furthermore, the authorities have taken extensive what progress he has made on the Coalition Agreement action to support investment, including supportive commitment to work with the Bank of England to monetary policy, the Funding for Lending scheme, cuts investigate how the process of including housing costs to the corporation tax rate, planning reform and an in the CPI measure of inflation can be accelerated; and increased annual investment allowance. if he will make a statement. [180992] The OBR forecast business investment growth to strengthen in future years, consistent with the strengthening Nicky Morgan: From March 2013 the Office for investment intentions seen in survey data, with growth National Statistics has been publishing ’CPIH’, a measure of 5.1% in 2014, 8.6% in 2015 and rising to 8.9% in of CPI inflation that includes owner-occupiers’ housing 2017. costs. The UK Statistics Authority announced on 10 December 2013 that, after a review, CPIH had been awarded ’national statistics’ status. Credit: Interest Rates National Insurance Contributions: Immigrants Mark Hendrick: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much corporation tax was paid by (a) all payday lending companies and (b) each such company in the Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer last three tax years. [181210] (1) which categories of migrants are exempt from paying national insurance contributions; [180958] Mr Gauke: The information requested for all payday (2) how many people entering the UK on intra-company lending companies is not available. transfers in 2012-13 were exempt from national insurance. HMRC is unable to disclose information on corporation [180959] tax paid by individual payday lending companies as this would be a breach of its duty of confidentiality. Mr Gauke: The basic rule is that migrant workers have to pay national insurance when they work in the UK. There are some exceptions for those who are sent Debts: Developing Countries here temporarily to work for their foreign employer. These are set out on HMRC’s website at: Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nic/work/emps-abroad.htm Exchequer what steps he is taking to support the work There are no figures available about how many people of the United Nations Conference on Trade and entering the UK on intra-company transfers in 2012-13 Development on formulating proposals for a Sovereign were exempt from national insurance. Debt Work-out Mechanism and building global consensus for its creation. [181846] NATO Sajid Javid: Co-ordinated international action through existing multilateral frameworks such as the Paris Club, Nicholas Soames: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries Initiative and the what estimate he has made of the loss of revenue to the Multilateral Debt Relief Initiative have delivered billions Exchequer as a consequence of NATO’s tax-exempt of debt relief in recent years. Any proposal for a wider status. [181022] sovereign debt work-out mechanism would need to be considered on its merits. Hugh Robertson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Foreign and Commonwealth Double Taxation Affairs. No assessment has been made of the loss of revenue to the Exchequer as a consequence of NATO’s tax-exempt Mrs Main: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer status. This could only be done at disproportionate what assessment he has made of the implications for cost. NATO do not have a centralised accounting system HM Revenue and Customs of the recent High Court nor a central computerised search facility. Collating a decision, R (on the application of Huitson) v Her reply would require coordinating inputs from around Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (2011) EWCA 40 NATO structures, located across all 28 NATO members Civ 893, in respect of section 58(4) of the Finance Act states and tracking records back to 1957. Pre 1997 2008. [180985] records are on paper files. Mr Gauke: UK residents are taxable on their worldwide income wherever it arises—including situations where it Network Rail arises by way of foreign partnerships. Section 58 of Finance Act 2008 was enacted to help put that beyond Mary Creagh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer doubt and in so doing, made clear that a wholly artificial (1) following the reclassification of Network Rail, whether tax avoidance scheme involving a foreign partnership official borrowing and debt figures will continue to comprised of foreign trustees did not work. exclude Network Rail debt; [181317] The Government has given full consideration to all (2) what assessment he has made of the effect on the decisions of the Courts which relate to section 58, Government’s deficit of reclassification of Network including the case referred to above. Rail’s debt. [181245] 239W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 240W

Danny Alexander [holding answers 6 January 2014]: WORK AND PENSIONS As set out at autumn statement, the Government welcomes this review by the ONS and has always been committed Jobseeker’s Allowance to a transparent reporting of public liabilities. It will therefore implement the ONS’s decision in reporting Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for arrangements, in line with this Government’s commitment Work and Pensions how many jobseeker’s allowance to transparency. The reclassification of Network Rail to claimants in the UK were entitled to short-term benefit the public sector is a statistical decision. It does not advances between April and December 2013; and how change the industry structure or affect the day-to-day many such advances were issued to jobseeker’s operations of the rail network. allowance claimants in the UK between April and The OBR highlighted the potential impact of a public December 2013. [181384] sector reclassification in Box 4.2 of its December 2013 “Economic and fiscal outlook”. This was reiterated in Esther McVey: In the period April to December 2013 paragraph 1.80 of the autumn statement 2013. The our Decision Makers awarded 60,749 Short Term Benefit independent OBR will in due course estimate the impacts Advances to eligible benefit claimants. We do not collate of this decision on the public finances and on the the number of advances made broken down by benefit mandate. type only the total number of Short Term Benefit Advances made. The Government inherited the biggest deficit in the developed world from the previous Government. Thanks Members: Correspondence to difficult decisions the deficit is down by a third. The Government will continue to reduce the deficit by taking Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for difficult decisions to cut public spending and prioritise Work and Pensions when he intends to respond to the investment in infrastructure to deliver a stronger economy letter of 20 November 2013 from the hon. Member for and fairer society. Bishop Auckland on employment and support allowance. [181423] Olympic Games 2012: Touting Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to my reply Stephen Barclay: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of 19 December 2013, Official Report, column 758W. what steps HM Revenue and Customs has taken to implement the recommendations of the Operation Podium Social Security Benefits report. [181813] Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Gauke [holding answer 6 January 2014]: HMRC and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 19 December engages with the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) 2013, Official Report, column 760W, on social security and other police forces on a range of collaborative benefits, at what rate claimants are asked to repay such activities. During the Olympic and Paralympic period advances; and whether any (a) interest and (b) other this included Operation Podium and a number of charge is applied. [181344] intelligence referrals resulted. Such referrals are often passed through HMRC’s intelligence officers in the Esther McVey: Short-term benefit advances (STBA) Regional Organised Crime Units and may go for are advances of current Legacy benefits (including investigation to HMRC’s Criminal Taxes Unit (CTU). employment and support allowance and job seeker’s This unit is in the process of doubling its size to increase allowance). The maximum recovery period is normally support to tackling economic crime such as this across 12 weeks, but claimants may request a shorter recovery the wider law enforcement community. The CTU is well period if they wish. Deductions start from the second positioned to support the MPS in targeting ″ticket tout″ full benefit payment. Negotiating the amount of the opportunities which might still emerge from this intelligence. weekly deduction and length of the recovery period is part of the STBA award process and agreement of the terms and conditions are necessary before an advance is Written Questions paid. STBAs are advances of benefit and not loans therefore no interest or charges are applied. John Healey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The recovery period for universal credit (new claim) pursuant to the answers of 10 December 2013, Official and (change of circumstances) advances is six months Report, column 202W,on infrastructure, and of 2 September and for budgeting advances 12 months, starting from 2013, Official Report, column 147W,on written questions, the next payment of universal credit after receipt of the what account he took of paragraph 7.37 of the Office of advance. The rate of recovery for an advance is calculated the Leader of the House’s Guide to Parliamentary by dividing the amount of benefit advanced by the Work in the preparation of his answer of 10 December number of months it is to be recovered over. This results 2013. [181048] in equal monthly repayment amounts which are deducted from the claimant’s monthly universal credit award. Nicky Morgan: It has been the practice of successive universal credit advances are advances of benefit and Administrations to refer Members to publications and not loans therefore no interest or charges are applied. other source documents from which information they are seeking can be extracted, as a means of being Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work helpful, because directing Members to the source of the and Pensions (1) whether a claimant who makes his information can help provide further information on Department or a jobcentre aware that they are in the same subject. financial need will always then be informed that they 241W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 242W may be eligible to claim a short-term benefit advance; written communications in a range of formats. Customers and if not, under what circumstances such a person with mental health conditions may wish to use a will be informed; [181417] representative or intermediary to help them to engage (2) what guidance his Department gives jobcentre with us. staff on when to inform people that they may be eligible for a short-term benefit advance. [181418]

Esther McVey: Where a claimant states that they are INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT in urgent need they will be given advice about claiming Developing Countries: Forests a short term benefit advance (STBA). If an STBA is clearly not appropriate for example, the claimant has no entitlement to benefit, then they will be advised of Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for alternative support services in their area. International Development what information she has on how the Climate Investment Funds’ Forest Investment Written guidance is provided to staff to help them Programme supports (a) capacity building in national decide whether a short term benefit advance is appropriate. parliaments and (b) the development of national legislation as part of the preparation and implementation of REDD+ Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work strategies in developing countries. [181168] and Pensions under what circumstances a benefit claimant in financial need is eligible for a short-term Lynne Featherstone: The Forest Investment Programme benefit advance. [181419] (FIP) works with a wide range of stakeholders in eight countries. The FIP has the potential to support national Esther McVey: All decisions on whether or not to parliaments and the development of national legislation, award an advance of benefit are discretionary. In order if this is identified as a priority in the investment plan to be eligible to apply for a short-term benefit advance prepared by the governments in these countries. (STBA) the claimant must meet the three qualifying criteria. As advances are made against future benefit, Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for the claimant has to demonstrate that they are likely to International Development what information she has be entitled to receive that benefit before a payment can on how the forest carbon partnership facility supports be advanced. Affordability of recovery has to be considered (a) capacity building in national parliaments and (b) as deductions from benefit reduce the amount of benefit the development of national legislation as part of the a claimant receives, so it is important to ensure that the preparation and implementation of REDD+ strategies claimant is not put into a position where the amount of in developing countries. [181225] benefit left to them is too low. The claimant also has to meet the definition of financial need ie Lynne Featherstone: The Forest Carbon Partnership “result in a serious risk of damage to the health or safety of the Facility (FCPF) Readiness Fund works with a wide claimant or any member of their family” range of stakeholders in 36 countries. The FCPF has and be unable to access any alternative sources of the potential to support national parliaments and the support, such as tax credits, savings, final wages etc. development of national legislation, if this is identified as a priority in the Readiness Preparation Proposals Social Security Benefits: Disability (RPPs) prepared by the governments in these countries. Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work International Development what information she has and Pensions if he will make an assessment of the on how the International Climate Fund supports (a) potential benefits to claimants of disability benefits of capacity building in national parliaments and (b) the allocating such claimants a named point of contact development of national legislation as part of the throughout the process of their claim; and if he will preparation and implementation of REDD+ strategies make this his policy. [181354] in developing countries. [181226]

Mike Penning: The Department is keen to ensure that Lynne Featherstone: The Government’s International all people are able to access its services and we take a Climate Fund (ICF) does not provide any direct support variety of steps to provide help and support to enable to build capacity in national parliaments or develop individuals to engage with DWP. The support we offer legislation to tackle deforestation. is tailored to the personal needs of the individual and depends on which service is being used or which benefit Tackling deforestation is a priority for the Government’s is being claimed. International Climate Fund (ICF). The Forest Governance, Markets and Climate (FGMC) Programme, which is People may be able to access specialist disability funded through the ICF,is making a significant investment services (if appropriate) and adjustments may be made in reforms to improve forest governance in a number of to the way services and supports are provided to facilitate developing countries, including Liberia, Ghana, the their access. Unfortunately it is not possible to give a Democratic Republic of Congo and Indonesia. named contact to a customer for the life of their claim as different staff may process the claim at various Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for stages. International Development what representations the The support offered by DWP includes a variety of Executive Director for the UK of the World Bank has communication methods: face to face contact on our made on the need for the World Bank to allocate funds premises; home visits; telephony; online services, and through the Climate Investment Funds’ Forest 243W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 244W

Investment Programme to (a) capacity building in www.oecd.org/daf/anti-bribery/G20_Anti- national parliaments and (b) the development of Corruption_Action_Plan_(2013-2014).pdf national legislation as part of the preparation and We will work closely with the Australian presidency of implementation of REDD+ strategies in developing the G20 in 2014 to ensure continued vigorous countries. [181227] implementation of the Action Plan.

Lynne Featherstone: The World Bank does not take Developing Countries: Sanitation decisions on the allocation of Forest Investment Programme (FIP) funds. Decisions on the allocation of funds are taken by the FIP Sub-Committee, based on investment Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for plans submitted by developing country governments. International Development what progress her Department The Sub-Committee comprises six donor countries and has made on improving access to clean water and six recipient countries. sanitation globally; and what steps she is taking to address the findings of the report, We can’t wait, published Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for by WaterAid, WSSCC and Unilever on 19 November International Development what representations the 2013. [181928] Executive Director for the UK of the World Bank has made of the need for the World Bank to allocate funds Lynne Featherstone: I welcome the WaterAid report through the Forest Carbon Partnership Facility to (a) into what is a critical issue for developing countries, capacity building in national Parliaments and (b) the particularly for women and girls, and DFID is already development of national legislation as part of the addressing the issues raised. preparation and implementation of REDD+ strategies On the conclusion concerning a role for the private sector in in developing countries. [181228] delivery of water and sanitation, DFID recently won an award for working with Unilever on a new approach to urban sanitation in Lynne Featherstone: The World Bank does not take Ghana; decisions on the allocation of funds from the Forest On the post-2015 development framework recommendation, Carbon Partnership Facility (FCPF). Decisions on the we strongly endorse the recommendations of the High Level allocation of funds are taken by the Participants Committee, Panel, which was co-chaired by the UK Prime Minister, and included an illustrative dedicated goal for water with ambitious based on proposals submitted by developing country targets for water and sanitation services; governments. The Participants Committee comprises On the world keeping its promises, we are also working through up to 14 donor countries and 14 recipient countries. the Sanitation and Water for All initiative to ensure there is accountability on commitments donors and countries make. Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK is on target to meet our commitment to International Development what representations she support 60 million people gain access to sustainable has made to the President of the World Bank on World water, sanitation and hygiene services in the developing Bank support for capacity building in national parliaments world through expanding existing projects and by entering and the development of national legislation as part of into new partnerships with major WASH organisations. the preparation and implementation of REDD+ strategies in developing countries. [182016] International Assistance Lynne Featherstone: The World Bank hosts a number of multilateral programmes to reduce emissions from Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for deforestation and forest degradation in developing countries International Development how much was pledged (REDD+). These programmes work in developing countries overall and by each of the top five donor countries to with a wide range of stakeholders, and have the potential the World Bank’s IDA 17 replenishment at the meeting to support national parliaments and the development in Moscow on 17 December 2013; what the Bank’s and of national legislation in the programmes which they the UK’s development priorities will be for IDA 17; support, if this is identified as a priority by the recipient and if she will make a statement. [181307] governments. The Secretary of State for International Development, the right hon. Member for Putney (Justine Mr Duncan: The Secretary of State for International Greening), discussed a wide range of policy issues with Development, my right hon. Friend, the Member for the President of the World Bank. Putney (Justine Greening), placed a written ministerial statement before Parliament on 19 December 2013, Developing Countries: Politics and Government Official Report, column 128WS, on the outcome of negotiations on the seventeenth replenishment of the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State International Development Association (IDA 17). for International Development what the UK is doing The negotiations secured over £34 billion in total to promote good governance and anti-corruption resources for IDA 17. In light of strong results and the initiatives through the G20. [181381] reforms made since the last IDA replenishment as well as a commitment to further reforms, the UK has agreed Lynne Featherstone: The G20 Anti-Corruption Working to contribute an average of £938 million per year for the Group exists to promote good governance and anti- next three years to this total. Britain will also provide a corruption initiatives in the G20. The Working Group concessional loan, to be paid back to the UK, worth has recently completed the first year of implementation £500 million over the three year period. Information on of the 2013-14 G20 Anti-Corruption Action Plan. The the pledges of others will become available once the Action Plan can be found at: World Bank Board has formally approved the outcome 245W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 246W of the negotiations, expected to be March 2014, and so further increase the capacity, safety and security of aid at this stage we are unable to publish figures for the agencies to respond to the most vulnerable (particularly other donors. the most vulnerable women and girls) wherever access The UK has successfully ensured that our development allows and prepare for when access improves. We are priorities (economic development, gender, fragile and also co-ordinating with regional offices to ensure we are conflict-affected states, and tackling climate change) prepared for any possible refugee outflow. are the priority themes in IDA 17, which means that The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is not informed particular attention will be paid to improving IDA’s of every British national in South Sudan, but our impact in these areas. The UK has also secured a assessment is that there are approximately 90 British greater focus on value for money and results, for example nationals in South Sudan at present, many of whom are by better tracking of cost-effectiveness and of the impact UN staff or have expressed a desire to remain in the of IDA in these priority themes. country despite FCO travel advice. We will continue to closely monitor the situation. Palestinians Sudan and South Sudan Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment she has Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for International made of whether levels of food, fuel and medical Development what steps her Department is taking to supplies entering Gaza each day are adequate for the enhance economic participation rights of women in population of that region. [181305] Sudan and South Sudan. [178267]

Mr Duncan: We are very concerned by the chronic Lynne Featherstone: UK support to Sudan and South humanitarian situation in Gaza, caused in part by Sudan is helping to address barriers to and enhance opportunities for women’s economic participation, including restrictions on movement and access for goods and improving access to education, health care, justice and people. Recent fuel deliveries from Turkey and Qatar financial services. In 2012 UK aid funded health and have helped to mitigate the situation in the short term, nutrition related programmes which reached 457,811 but the energy supply is still inadequate and many women and girls. Between the start of 2011 and September families are experiencing long blackouts each day. Reports 2013, UK support also helped 20,226 women access from our partners indicate that the emergency response financial services. mechanisms are currently working adequately, but concerns remain over the need to replenish stocks and longer-term In South Sudan, the UK’s Girls Education programme funding. We welcome the decision of the Israeli Government is working to help 200,000 girls to complete secondary to temporarily extend opening hours at the Kerem school education over five years, while the UK-led Salom crossing, and will continue to lobby Israel and Health Pooled Fund is helping to deliver basic health Egypt to improve access to Gaza in the longer term. services across six out of South Sudan’s 10 states. The UK is also supporting 13,000 young women across four South Sudan states to build their literacy and livelihoods skills as a foundation for future employment. Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Due to the current situation in South Sudan, our International Development what recent assessment she immediate focus is on humanitarian support. We have has made of the humanitarian situation in South announced a further £12.5 million to provide an emergency Sudan; what estimate she has made of the number of lifeline of tents, health care and other vital supplies to British nationals who remain in that country; and what thousands people who have fled their homes in South assessment she has made of the safety of UK aid Sudan. workers who remain in the country. [181379] This is in addition to British humanitarian support of £24 million in October that has already allowed agencies Lynne Featherstone: We are deeply concerned about on the ground to respond and provide food and medical the humanitarian situation in South Sudan. The ongoing supplies and reprioritise towards the most critical needs. crisis has forced tens of thousands of people from their homes, and left them in urgent need of assistance and protection. We are extremely worried about those whom humanitarian agencies cannot reach, for whom conditions FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE are expected to be even worse. South Sudan A humanitarian response is under way where access is possible, but this is severely constrained by insecurity, Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for and subsequent lack of humanitarian capacity in many Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent locations. UK officials in Nairobi are monitoring the consideration he has given to closing the British Embassy situation closely and remain in daily contact with in Juba; and what discussions he has had with the humanitarian partners in South Sudan. The Secretary Secretary of State for Defence on providing additional of State for International Development, the right hon. protection for staff who remain at the British Embassy Member for Putney (Justine Greening), recently announced in Juba. [181378] £12.5 million to support the ongoing humanitarian response to provide tents, health care and other vital Mark Simmonds: The overall security environment supplies to thousands of people who have fled their remains challenging and the protection of our staff is of homes. This includes support to the UN humanitarian paramount importance. We have a duty of care framework air service to airlift humanitarian workers and supplies in place to assess whether the security situation warrants into areas where access is possible. We are working to a drawdown of staff or closure of Post. Together with 247W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 248W other Government Departments in South Sudan, including Renewable Energy: Scotland the Ministry of Defence, we are monitoring the situation closely and keep the level of protection under constant Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for review. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of renewable subsidies in Scotland (a) in 2013-14, (b) in the period till 2016-17 and (c) beyond 2016-17. [180939] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Gregory Barker: As the Government has explained in its written evidence to the Environmental Audit Committee, Electricity there is no single definition of ’subsidy’: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/ Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy cmselect/cmenvaud/writev/61/energy.pdf and Climate Change (1) what the average cost was to The Government set out the package of support it the National Grid per MWHr of electricity generated provides for renewables and other energy sources within by the Short Term Operating Reserve in each of the this evidence. Upper limits on levies and agreed budgets last five years; [181373] may differ from actual expenditure on renewables, and (2) what the average cost was to the National Grid forecast policy expenditure for renewable deployment per MWHr of electricity generated by the Non-Balancing are not modelled at a geographical level, and therefore Mechanism category of the Short Term Operating Reserve figures for Scotland are not available. in each of the last five years. [181376] The implications of Scottish independence for energy issues, including renewables, will be examined in forthcoming Michael Fallon: The following data from National publications from the Scotland analysis programme. Grid shows the average cost per MWH of electricity of utilising the Short Term Operating Reserve (STOR) over the last five full STOR years (April to March): CABINET OFFICE £ Minister Without Portfolio 2008-09 215.16 2009-10 220.63 Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) what international visits the Minister Without 2010-11 193.80 Portfolio the hon. Member for South Holland and The 2011-12 186.38 Deepings, has undertaken in his official capacity since 2012-13 156.70 1 January 2012; and what mode of travel was used for There has been strong downward pressure on these each such visit funded by his Department; [181745] prices over the past few years as a result of increasing (2) what international visits the Minister Without levels of competition. Portfolio, the right hon. Member for Rushcliffe, has National Grid does not currently monitor utilisation undertaken in his official capacity since January 2012; volumes and rates for Non-Balancing Mechanism sites and what mode of travel was used for each such visit in isolation. Overall, they believe that Balancing Mechanism funded by his Department; [181746] and Non-Balancing Mechanism accepted tenders are (3) what international visits the Minister Without comparable and therefore the above data applies to Portfolio, the right hon. Member for West Dorset, has both. undertaken in his official capacity since January 2012; and what mode of travel was used for each such visit Electricity Generation funded by his Department; [181747] (4) on how many occasions the Minister Without Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Portfolio the right hon. Member for West Dorset, has and Climate Change (1) what estimate he has made of used an official car from the Ministerial Car Pool since the average carbon dioxide emissions per MWHr of 1 January 2012; and what the departure and destination electricity generated by the Short Term Operating locations were on each such occasion; [181742] Reserve in each of the last five years; [181374] (5) on how many occasions the Minister Without (2) what estimate he has made of the average carbon Portfolio the hon. Member for South Holland and The dioxide emissions per MWHr of electricity generated Deepings, has used an official car from the Ministerial by the Non-Balancing Mechanism category of the Car Pool since 1 January 2012; and what the departure Short Term Operating Reserve in each of the last five and destination locations were on each such occasion; [181743] years. [181375] (6) on how many occasions the Minister Without Michael Fallon: The Short Term Operating Reserve Portfolio the right hon. Member for Rushcliffe, has (STOR) is an electricity reserve product procured by used an official car from the Ministerial Car Pool since National Grid that acts as an insurance policy from 1 January 2012; and what the departure and destination sources of generation or demand reduction to manage locations were on each such occasion; [181744] wider system issues. Utilisation volumes are very low in (7) how many special advisers have been employed by comparison with the wholesale market. Neither the Minister Without Portfolio, the right hon. Member Government nor National Grid holds data on carbon for West Dorset, since January 2012; and what the dioxide emissions for each provider or at an average rate salaries, insofar as they were funded by his Department, for specific fuel types. were of those advisers; [181748] 249W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 250W

(8) how many special advisers have been employed by During our tenure as chair of the OGP we organised the Minister Without Portfolio, the right hon. Member a number of peer engagement events and oversaw the for Rushcliffe, since January 2012; and what the salaries, creation of the Independent Reporting Mechanism, insofar as they were funded by his Department, were of which reports on countries’ progress in implementing those advisers; [181749] National Action Plans. (9) how many special advisers have been employed Pay by the Minister Without Portfolio, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings, since January 2012; and what the salaries, insofar as they Mr Bain: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if were funded by his Department, were of those advisers; he will estimate based on the annual survey of hours [181750] and earnings published on 12 December 2013 the number and proportion of (a) people, (b) men and (c) women (10) how many staff have been employed by the in (i) work, (ii) full-time work and (iii) part-time work in Minister Without Portfolio, the right hon. Member for each (A) local authority area and (B) parliamentary West Dorset, since January 2012; and what the salaries, constituency earning less than the UK living wage in insofar as they were funded by his Department, were of 2013 to date. [180794] those staff; [181751] (11) how many staff have been employed by the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Minister Without Portfolio, the right hon. Member for responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have South Holland and the Deepings, since January 2012; asked the authority to reply. and what the salaries, insofar as they were funded by Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2014: his Department, were of those staff; [181752] (12) how many staff have been employed in the office As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question of the Minister Without Portfolio, the right hon. asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office, if he will estimate Member for Rushcliffe, since January 2012; and what based on the annual survey of hours and earnings published on the salaries, insofar as they were funded by his 12 December 2013 of the number and proportion of (a) people, Department, were of those staff; [181753] (b) men and (c) women in (i) work, (ii) full-time work and (iii) (13) whether any special advisers are employed to part-time work in each (A) local authority area and (B) Parliamentary constituency earning less than the UK living wage in 2013 to date. support the right hon. Member for Welwyn, Hatfield in (180794). his role as Minister Without Portfolio; and at what cost The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), carried such advisers are employed; [181333] out in April each year, is the most comprehensive source of (14) how many officials of his Department are earnings information in the United Kingdom. Hourly levels of employed for the purpose of providing support to the earnings are estimated from ASHE, and are provided for employees right hon. Member for Welwyn, Hatfield in his role as on adult rates of pay, whose earnings for the survey pay period Minister Without Portfolio; and at what cost such staff were not affected by absence. It is not possible to estimate the number of people with earnings below specified thresholds, though are employed. [181332] it is possible to estimate the corresponding proportion of employee jobs. Figures relate to employee jobs, which are defined as those Mr Maude: Successive Governments have included held by employees and not the self-employed. Ministers Without Portfolio. In April 2013, the latest period for which results are available, Details of ministerial overseas travel are available at: the Living Wage rates suggested by the Living Wage Foundation https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ministerial-gifts- were £8.55 for employees who worked in London and £7.45 for hospitality-travel-and-meetings-with-external-organisations- employees who did not work in London. Tables showing estimates april-to-june-2013 of the proportion of employee jobs with hourly earnings below This Department maintains a car pool for official the living wage proposed by the Living Wage Foundation for each parliamentary constituency and local authority in the UK will be purposes. The detailed information requested is not placed in the Library of the House. maintained. I refer the hon. Member to the list of special advisers Pay: Northamptonshire the Government publishes, the most recent of which was published on 25 October 2013. The list details Andy Sawford: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet special advisers’ in post, their pay band and their actual Office how many people who are employed and contracted salary where this is £58,200 or higher. This can be found workers are paid less than the rate defined by the Living at: Wage Foundation as a living wage in (a) Corby https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/special-adviser- constituency and (b) East Northamptonshire. [178865] data-releases-numbers-and-costs-october-2013 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Open Government Partnership responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Minister for the Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2014: Cabinet Office what steps the Government is taking to encourage other members of the Open Government As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Partnership to implement their National Action Plans. asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office, how many people who [181380] are employed and contracted workers are paid less than the rate defined by the Living Wage Foundation as a living wage in (a) Mr Maude: Countries are responsible for implementing Corby constituency and (b) East Northamptonshire. (178865). their own plans but the United Kingdom offers support The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), carried to other member countries including via the Foreign out in April each year, is the most comprehensive source of and Commonwealth Office. earnings information in the United Kingdom. Hourly levels of 251W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 252W earnings are estimated from ASHE, and are provided for employees Chief of Defence Materiel on adult rates of pay, whose earnings for the survey pay period were not affected by absence. It is not possible to estimate the number of people with earnings below specified thresholds, though Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for it is possible to estimate the corresponding proportion of employee Defence whether there is a break clause within the jobs. Figures relate to employee jobs, which are defined as those contract of employment between the Chief of Defence held by employees and not the self-employed. Materiel and his Department; and what the value of In April 2013, the latest period for which results are available, such a clause is. [181262] the Living Wage rates suggested by the Living Wage Foundation were £8.55 for employees who worked in London and £7.45 for Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 6 January 2014]: employees who did not work in London. The table shows estimates I can confirm that there is a break clause in the contract of the proportion of employee jobs with hourly earnings below of employment between the Chief of Defence Materiel the living wage proposed by the Living Wage foundation in Corby constituency and East Northamptonshire. and the Ministry of Defence. Percentage of employee jobs1 with hourly pay excluding overtime below The value of any compensation payable in the event the living wage2 in Corby constituency and East Northamptonshire in of the break being exercised would be determined in April 2013 accordance with the rules of the Civil Service Compensation Per cent below the living wage Scheme which is broadly one month’s pay per year of service. In this case, compensation would be restricted Corby *27.5 because the individual earns more than the set maximum East Northamptonshire **27.7 for the scheme (currently £149,820). 1 Employee jobs are defined as those held by employees and not the self-employed. Figures relate to employees on adult rates whose pay Defence Equipment and Support for the survey pay-period was not affected by absence. ASHE is based ona1percentsampleofjobstakenfromHMRevenueandCustoms’ Pay As You Earn (PAYE) records. Consequently, individuals with Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for more than one job may appear in the sample more than once. Defence what the salary, pension entitlement and 2 The Living Wage Foundation proposed living wage rates of £8.55 for employees in London and £7.45 for employees who did not work benefits-in-kind are of the newly appointed Chief in London in April 2013. Executive of DE&S+. [181272] Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, Dr Murrison: The role of Chief of Defence Materiel the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely (CDM) and the Chief Executive of Defence Equipment to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within and Support (DE&S) are the same roles, with the new the range 180-220. title reflecting the change in status of DE&S as an arm’s Key: length body. Details of salary, pension entitlement and *CV>5%and<=10% taxable benefits-in-kind will, therefore, be set out in the ** CV > 10% and <=20% MOD annual report and accounts in the normal way. Source: Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), Office for National The most recent data, for the 2012-13 financial year, Statistics is set out in table 7.116 on page 75 of the report and at paragraph 7.118 on page 76. A copy of the report is available to view in the Vote Office and is also available DEFENCE on the internet at the following address: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mod-annual- Afghanistan report-and-accounts-201213

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence: Procurement (1) how much of the proposed modification work on vehicles used in Afghanistan to make them fit for use on UK roads will be undertaken by (a) the Defence Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Support Group and (b) other agencies or companies; Defence how much of the £60 billion planned spend on and if he will make a statement; [180946] new equipment in the Defence Equipment Plan 2012 is (2) how many of the companies who will undertake (a) committed and (b) uncommitted. [178259] modifications of vehicles returning from Afghanistan to make them fit for use on UK roads have undertaken Dr Murrison: The breakdown of the Equipment contract work during operations in Afghanistan; and if Procurement Programme into committed and uncommitted he will make a statement; [180947] is published in the Defence Equipment Plan 2012. We will update the figures in the Defence Equipment Plan (3) how much his Department has (a) allocated and 2013, which will be published this year. (b) spent to date on the modification programmes for the vehicles bought specifically for Afghanistan to Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for ensure that they are fit for use in the UK; and if he will Defence what discussions he has had with (a) ministerial make a statement. [180956] colleagues and (b) other European governments with a Dr Murrison: I am withholding information on how view to creating a VAT exemption for pan-European much the Department has allocated to the modification defence procurement projects; and if he will make a programme, as negotiations with contractors are currently statement. [181065] ongoing, and disclosure would prejudice commercial interests. Decisions on the companies that will be involved Dr Murrison: The Secretary of State for Defence has in the work, and how much of it will be undertaken by had no specific meetings on the issue, although it was the Defence Support Group or other agencies, will be raised by some member states in the lead-up to the made as the contractual process is finalised. 19-20 December European Council. The UK position is 253W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 254W as set out in the 18-19 November Foreign Affairs Council Gibraltar Conclusions; that while we are willing to look at incentives for co-operation between member states on equipment Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for in general, any such incentive must not result in market Defence what assessment he has made of the strategic distortions and must be consistent with the law. Moreover, value of Gibraltar in terms of (a) defence and (b) any specific tax proposals, including VAT exemptions, defence diplomacy. [181246] must be referred to the Economic and Financial Affairs Council as tax is a sovereign issue for individual member Dr Murrison: The 2012 White Paper on Overseas states to decide upon. Territories (CM 8374), published by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on 28 June 2012, made it clear Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for that Gibraltar, alongside our other overseas Joint Operating Defence what contingency and risk mitigation plan is Bases, makes an important contribution to the security in place in respect of the £7 billion for the completion interests of the UK, the territories themselves and our of the aircraft carrier, the OPVs and the Type 26 allies. Gibraltar also supports a range of defence destroyers; and what the level of contingency is. engagement activities including, for example, Royal [181221] Gibraltar Regiment training exercises in north and west Africa. Her Majesty’s Naval Base in Gibraltar is regularly Dr Murrison: As set out in the Ministry of Defence’s used by the navies of our allies and partners. (MOD) annual Equipment Plan, funding for MOD procurement projects routinely includes an element of Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for risk contingency. This contingency is commensurate Defence what plans he has for courtesy visits to Gibraltar with the level of risk exposure of each project and will by Royal Navy warships in the next 12 months; if he vary as risks are mitigated and new ones identified. The will list the (a) RoyalNavyand(b) Royal Fleet Auxiliary precise level of risk contingency allocated for each vessels which have made courtesy visits to Gibraltar in project is considered to be commercially sensitive as it each of the last three years; and what assessment he has would prejudice any ongoing or future negotiations. I made of the diplomatic value of courtesy visits to am therefore withholding this information. Gibraltar by UK warships and fleet auxiliaries. [181247] EU Battlegroups Dr Murrison: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the then Minister for the Armed Forces, the Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), on Defence if he will place in the Library copies of the 17 July 2012, Official Report, column 758-60W, to my papers recently presented to the European Council on hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage). Battlegroups and Dual-Use Technologies and small Since 1 June 2012, the following Royal Navy (RN) and medium-sized enterprises. [181063] and Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) ships have visited Dr Murrison: No papers on battlegroups, dual-use Gibraltar: technologies, or small and medium-sized enterprises 2012 have recently been presented by the UK to the European HMS St Albans Council. HMS Atherstone HMS Shoreham EU Common Foreign and Security Policy HMS Diamond HMS Blyth Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for HMS Sutherland Defence what discussions he has had with (a) the European Commission and (b) other European HMS Daring governments on the updating of the European Security HMS Westminster Strategy; and if he will make a statement. [181064] HMS Echo HMS Enterprise Dr Murrison: The Secretary of State for Defence, my HMS Bulwark right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and HMS Montrose Weybridge (Mr Hammond), has not discussed updating the European Security Strategy with the European RFA Mounts Bay Commission. Ahead of the 19-20 December European HMS Northumberland Council discussion on Defence, an informal meeting of HMS Monmouth EU Defence Ministers, attended by the Secretary of 2013 State, discussed whether such a strategy was necessary. RFA Wave Ruler The UK did not support an update of the European Security Strategy. HMS Cattistock While there was no consensus on updating the European HMS Talent Security Strategy, the European Council on Defence, HMS Dragon attended by the Prime Minister, invited HMS Kent ″the High Representative, in close co-operation with the Commission, HMS Monmouth to assess the impact of changes in the global environment, and to HMS Trenchant report to the Council in the course of 2015 on the challenges and opportunities arising for the Union, following consultations with HMS Ledbury the member states″. HMS Enterprise 255W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 256W

HMS Echo South Sudan HMS Tireless RFA Lyme Bay Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for RFA Mounts Bay Defence what consideration he has given to providing HMS Westminster additional protection to staff who remain at the British Embassy in Juba. [181377] HMS Penzance HMS Triumph Dr Murrison: The overall security environment remains RFA Fort Victoria challenging and the protection of HMG staff is of HMS Pursuer. paramount importance. Additional protective equipment This list does not include HMS Sabre and HMS has been dispatched to Juba for use by the remaining Scimitar, which are permanently based in Gibraltar. embassy personnel and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has a duty of care framework in place to The RN and RFA do not conduct “courtesy” visits to assess whether the security situation requires further Gibraltar; all ships’ visits are for operational reasons, measures to be taken. Together with Whitehall partners, and these will continue through the next 12 months and including the FCO, we are monitoring the situation beyond as required. closely, keeping the level of protection under constant review. Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when a Royal Navy warship of the size of a Unmanned Air Vehicles frigate was last based at Gibraltar; whether there are any plans to base a frigate at Gibraltar; what the Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for potential (a) diplomatic and (b) naval utility would be Defence what discussions he has had with his European of basing a frigate at Gibraltar; if he will make it his counterparts about creating a European Reaper Users policy to base a frigate or larger warship at Gibraltar; Association; and if he will make a statement. [181024] and if he will make a statement. [181248] Dr Murrison: The Secretary of State for Defence, my Dr Murrison: The Government assesses that the Royal right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Navy in Gibraltar has sufficient assets to deliver its Weybridge (Mr Hammond), has not had specific discussions current tasking. However, we constantly review the with European counterparts about creating or joining a permanent and visiting naval presence in and around European Reaper Users Association. Gibraltar and will adjust it if necessary. We expect larger Royal Navy ships to continue to visit Gibraltar in relation to operational and training activity, reflecting its utility as a permanent joint operating base. However, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT they will continue to be based in the UK. Diplomatically, we continue to focus on political engagement with the Spanish Government. Fire Services The Gibraltar Squadron was formed in August 1985, and information on the earlier Gibraltar Guardship Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for role, which was latterly based in UK waters, is not held Communities and Local Government (1) what guidance centrally. I will write to my hon. Friend once the naval he has provided to fire authorities on levels of financial records have been reviewed. reserves; [181301] (2) what the total amount of financial reserves held nationally by the Fire and Rescue Service is; and how Libya much is held by each individual fire authority. [181302] Brandon Lewis: There is no prescriptive national guidance Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence that specifies a minimum or maximum level of reserves. how many training teams his Department has deployed Rather, fire and rescue authorities in England should to Libya since the death of Colonel Gaddafi. [181372] determine the optimal level as part of their wider financial planning. Dr Murrison: Since the end of the Gaddafi regime, In December 2012 we published the best practice the Ministry of Defence’s assistance to Libya has been document ‘50 ways to save’, which recommended: focused on providing high level advice on defence reform “Utilise £16 billion of reserves creatively: Councils are sitting through what is now known as the Defence Advisory on £4.1 billion of unallocated (non-school) financial reserves and and Training Team in Tripoli. a further £12.4 billion of earmarked non-school reserves. Many This team provides the main platform for UK training ‘earmarked’ reserves do not actually have a proper purpose. Make creative use of reserves to address short-term costs, such as in Libya. Since October 2011 five training teams have restructuring or investing now to realise savings in the longer-term been engaged in capacity building programmes on English (e.g. ‘invest to save’ projects).” Language training, explosive ordnance disposal schools, The financial reserves held by single purpose fire and joint operational planning capability and assisting the rescue authorities in England are published here: development of the Libyan navy. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ The English Language programme has been completed attachment_data/file/266268/ but teams are currently engaged in Libya on the other Revenue_Outturn_Summary__RS__data_2012-13_by_LA_- three programmes. _Revised_16-Dec-2013.xls 257W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 258W

Local Government Finance: North Yorkshire Centenary Quay in Southampton, where 102 new private rented sector units will be delivered for £3.5 million of funding to Crest Nicholson. The first tenants are expected to occupy these new Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for homes from May 2016. Communities and Local Government what the total net Three Towers in Manchester, where 192 new private rented change in central government funding to (a) sector units will be delivered for £7.9 million of funding to CS Middlesbrough Council and (b) Redcar and Cleveland Capital Partners IV LP. The first tenants are expected to occupy Council has been since May 2010. [181409] these new homes from July 2015. A total of 126 bids have been received for Round Brandon Lewis: It is not possible to calculate the net Two, requesting £2.8 billion of funding. Bids are currently change in central Government support to individual being shortlisted for Round Two, following the close of local authorities over this period due to changes in the applications on 31 October. way that local government is financed. From 2013-14, Applicants to Rounds One and Two self-classified local government has been able to retain a portion of themselves as follows: business rates and receive the benefit of any growth on this amount. Round 1 bids—breakdown by type of bidder Bidder (by type) Number of bidders Details of the provisional settlement for 2014-15 are available at: Private company 64 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/key- Public limited company 11 information-for-local-authorities-and-non-domestic-rates- Social landlords 13 pools Other 7 Details of previous settlements are available at: Grand total 95 http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/ssas.htm Round 2 bids—breakdown by type of bidder Bidder (by type) Number of bidders Private Rented Housing: Construction Private company 97 Public limited company 11 Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Social landlords 6 Communities and Local Government (1) what funds his Other 11 Department has allocated to the Build to Rent scheme; Grand total 125 and how much has been lent under that scheme to date; [177356] It is not possible to provide further details on other (2) how many applications under the Build to Rent contracts until they have been signed due to the ongoing scheme have been (a) received, (b) accepted and (c) commercial negotiations. refused from (i) private developers, (iii) housing associations, (iii) housing co-operatives, (iv) local authorities and (v) other entities; [177357] Right to Buy Scheme (3) if he will publish, for each application (a) accepted and (b) refused under the Build to Rent scheme to date, Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for (i) the amount loaned or requested, (ii) the recipient Communities and Local Government what assessment and (iii) the number of units of housing covered by the he has made of the ability of tenants to manage service application; [177358] charges and leaseholder responsibilities after purchasing (4) how many (a) developments and (b) homes have leasehold properties under the Right to Buy scheme. (i) been started and (ii) been completed under the Build [181309] to Rent scheme since the commencement of that scheme; [177359] Kris Hopkins: The Government has been clear that (5) how many of the properties built under the Build Right to Buy applicants must be provided with information to Rent scheme to date are (a) affordable rents, (b) on both the benefits and the responsibilities that homeownership brings. Our Right to Buy booklets—‘Want social rents and (c) market rents. [177376] to make your home your own?’ and ‘Thinking of buying a council flat?’—provide tenants with advice and tools Kris Hopkins [holding answer 26 November 2013]: to help them work out the costs of homeownership. The The Government has allocated £1 billion of commercial booklets are available free from social landlords or can finance support to the Build to Rent Fund to deliver up be downloaded at: to 10,000 new homes for private rented sector at market http://righttobuy.communities.gov.uk/howtoapply/ rate. The Build to Rent Fund will help to give hard working families greater choice of high quality rented https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thinking-of- buying-your-council-flat--2 accommodation, as part of the Government’s commitment to create a bigger and better private rented sector. The Housing Act 1985 includes a number of duties for social housing landlords on supporting potential Over £4 billion of bids have been received in response Right to Buy leaseholders. Social housing landlords to the two bidding rounds undertaken for the Build to must provide all tenants with a document containing Rent Fund. information on leaseholder responsibilities and other A total of 95 eligible bids were received for Round matters, to assist them in making their decision. As part One, requesting £1.4 billion of funding. Two contracts of the offer notice to a Right to Buy applicant, landlords have been signed so far. These contracts relate to the must also provide an estimate of service charges for the following projects: first five years of ownership. 259W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 260W

The Department is currently considering the responses Stephen Hammond: Currently no time scale exists for to its recent consultation on proposals to cap leaseholder electrification of the Caldervale line. However, earlier charges at £10,000 outside London (and £15,000 in this month the Government announced a joint taskforce London) where the works to tenanted homes receive to explore future electrification in the north. This group future government funding. I would expect social landlords will provide the Secretary of State for Transport with an to ensure that leaseholder charges are always proportionate interim report within 12 months setting out how schemes and rational, and deliver good value for money. can be brought forward and their development accelerated. Ministers are open to representations on what further The taskforce has been asked to ensure eight named steps can be taken to help public sector leaseholders. routes are considered. This did not include the Caldervale line but the taskforce is free to consider the case for any route in the north. We plan to announce the structure and terms of reference of the taskforce shortly. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Beef: Horse Meat Driving: Young People

Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what new safeguards Transport how many people aged under 22 (a) applied his Department has put in place to ensure processed for a driving licence and (b) passed their driving test in horsemeat is no longer being labelled as beef. [180970] (i) Great Britain, (ii) Scotland, (iii) Wales and (iv) each English region in each of the last 10 years. [181406] George Eustice: Following the horsemeat fraud there was a widespread programme of testing beef products Stephen Hammond: The total number of applications for horse DNA that included both local authorities and received from people aged under 22 is not available. industry. The UK Government was instrumental in However, 8,445,132 driving licences have been issued prompting action at a European level including the to people under the age of 22 in the last 10 years. Of Europe wide testing of products and has pressed successfully this, 7,337,437 were for a first provisional driving licence. for a second round of Europe wide testing in 2014. Below is a breakdown of the total number of licences The Food Labelling Regulations 1996 and the Food issued to people under the age of 22 per year. Information to consumers Regulation (EC) 1169/2011 require that the labelling of foods is not misleading. The Licences issued penalty for breach of the Food Labelling Regulations is 2004 671,523 a fine at level five on the standard scale. 2005 688,762 Stronger legal remedies for serious criminal fraud are 2006 705,014 available under the Fraud Act. The Government recognised 2007 729,376 very early in the incident that there was likely to be 2008 684,908 complex international criminal activity involved, which 2009 688,191 is why the UK police, the Serious Organised Crime 2010 671,859 Agency and Europol were contacted at an early stage in 2011 659,326 the incident and the Food Standards Agency and the police have been working jointly since February. 2012 647,282 Investigations are ongoing. 2013 639,797 The following table provides a breakdown of the number of people under the age of 22 who passed a TRANSPORT driving test in England, Scotland, Wales and Great Britain. Information for individual English regions is not available. Airports: Thames Estuary Information about the number of tests passed is only available from 1 April 2004. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the cost of Year/ Great further study of the Isle of Grain option outlined in the region England Scotland Wales Britain interim report of the Airports Commission; and which contractors have been engaged to complete this work. 2004 285,635 26,533 21,070 333,238 (from 1 [181359] April) 2005 410,645 35,524 27,582 473,751 Mr Goodwill: I refer the hon. Member to my answer to the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) 2006 425,148 38,706 29,673 493,527 on 6 January 2014, Official Report, columns 116-17W. 2007 412,013 38,108 27,381 477,502 2008 425,855 38,084 28,283 492,222 2009 383,898 35,997 25,165 445,060 Caldervale Railway Line 2010 363,508 34,301 22,638 420,447 2011 381,081 36,280 25,201 442,562 Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2012 354,597 33,534 22,625 410,756 what the timescale is for electrification of the Calderdale 2013 329,012 32,622 21,020 382,654 line between Manchester Victoria and Leeds. [181299] 261W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 262W

Northern Rail Roads: Safety Measures

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for (1) when he expects a decision to be taken on the Transport pursuant to the answer of 16 December devolution of Northern Rail services; and if he will 2013, Official Report, columns 427-8W,on roads repairs make a statement; [181512] and maintenance, for what reasons concrete safety barriers (2) what assessment he has made of the potential are not also being introduced on dual carriageway A risks and benefits of devolving Northern Rail services. roads; when metal barriers are due to be replaced; and if he will make a statement. [181331] [181513] Mr Goodwill: The design of motorways and ’A’ class Stephen Hammond: I refer the hon. Member to the trunk roads is different, particularly at junctions, which answer I gave on 6 January 2014, Official Report, columns means that the risk assessment in determining the 122-3W, to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington appropriate type of barrier is different for motorways (Mr John McDonnell) and ’A’ roads. The selection of the type of safety barrier for the installation on ’A’ roads is subject to an Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport assessment on a case by case basis. The assessment what total premium payments have been made by Northern takes into account the costs of installation and maintenance Rail since 2010. [181526] as well as accident statistics. To date concrete safety barrier has been installed on Stephen Hammond: Premium payments by train many dual carriageway ‘A’ roads including the A1, operators are published by the Office of Rail Regulation A421, A46, A27, A55, A2/A282 and the A12 with at: future concrete safety barrier works programmed for http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/ the A13 and A23. 6d363642-c3a9-4a29-9477-542810798fa7 Rolling Stock John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether his Department has prepared John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for contingency plans for Directly Operated Rail Services, Transport if he will make it a requirement that all new or a subsidiary of Directly Operated Rail Services, to railway rolling stock to be introduced in the next 10 operate Northern Rail Services in the event that it is not years will be configured to retain (a) the existing role possible to agree a new contract with the incumbent of conductor and guard and (b) on-board catering operator. [181985] facilities. [182002]

Stephen Hammond: In line with the Secretary of Stephen Hammond: In line with the market led approach State’s statutory duty to maintain the running of passenger set out in the March 2012 Rail Command Paper, ‘Reforming rail services under the Railways Act 1993 (as amended), our Railways: Putting the Customer First’, it will be for it might be that Directly Operated Rail Services (DOR) the relevant asset owners and potential future operators or a subsidiary of DOR could operate Northern services. to determine the configuration of rolling stock, in line with the franchise specifications and the relevant safety and legislative requirements. The previous Administration Pedestrian Crossings similarly did not specify rolling stock types or interior layouts and design. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has made an assessment of the Virgin Trains case for lowering the assumed 1.2 metres per second walking speed used for calculating crossing times in his Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Department’s guidance. [181383] what subsidy has been paid by the Government to Virgin West Coast since its franchise was extended in Mr Goodwill: The Department’s guidance on designing December 2012. [181528] pedestrian crossings, including setting timings, is given in Local Transport Note 1/95: The Assessment of Pedestrian Stephen Hammond: Subsidies payments to train operators Crossings, Local Transport Note 2/95: The Design of are published by the Office of Rail Regulation at: Pedestrian Crossings, and Traffic Advisory Leaflet 5/05: http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/ Pedestrian Facilities at Signal-controlled Junctions. 6d363642-c3a9-4a29-9477-542810798fa7 The Department recommends that where a crossing West Coast Railway Line may be used by a large number of older people or those with mobility issues, for example outside residential Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for care homes, this should be taken into account when Transport who is currently responsible for the maintenance setting timings. of trains on the West Coast Main Line; and at what The Department is currently undertaking a review of depots this maintenance takes place. [181837] traffic signing legislation, including the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Directions. Once this is concluded, the Department will Transport who is currently responsible for the maintenance consider the need to update guidance to reflect these of trains on the West Coast Main Line; and at what changes. depots this maintenance takes place. [181915] 263W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 264W

Stephen Hammond: Franchisees operating trains on experience undue delay in accessing abortion services the West Coast Main Line are responsible for the provision in the first 10 weeks of a pregnancy; [181111] of rolling stock required to operate their services. The (2) what assessment he has made of the reasons for details of what maintenance takes place at which depot the declining proportion of abortions taking place at can be ascertained from contacting the 10 passenger under 10 weeks’ gestation; and what steps he plans to train operating companies. take to ensure that women do not experience undue delay in accessing abortion services. [181112]

HEALTH Jane Ellison: In the last 10 years the proportion of abortions performed before 10 weeks gestation has Abortion increased by 33%. In 2011, 77.7% of abortions were performed before 10 weeks, while in 2012 77.4% were. Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health This suggests a levelling rather than a decrease. Data for (1) if he will take steps to ensure that women do not the last 10 years are set out in the following table:

Gestation 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

3-9weeks58606768707375777877 Source: Abortion Statistics, England and Wales (July 2013)

In March 2013, the Government published ‘AFramework where staff have incurred legitimate business costs for Sexual Health Improvement in England’ which themselves and subsequently claimed reimbursement, is emphasises the importance of early access to abortion included in table 2. services. A set of key indicators is being developed to Table 2 monitor progress against the ambitions in the framework. Air travel One of the proposed indicators is the percentage of Financial year UK (£) International (£) national health service funded abortions carried out at under 10 weeks’ gestation. 2012-13 571.17 891.41 Clinical guidance—‘The Care of Women Requesting 2011-12 195.35 1,371.71 Induced Abortion’—published by the Royal College of 2010-11 160.55 4,448.38 Obstetricians and Gynaecologists sets out that abortion 2009-10 2,323.69 18,673.77 services must offer an assessment within five working 2008-09 2,744.09 7,806.07 days of referral or self-referral and that services should offer women the procedure within five days of the decision to proceed. Therefore the total time from access Brain Cancer: Children to procedure should not exceed 10 working days. Air Travel Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to prevent brain cancer amongst Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for children. [180980] Health what the total cost of air travel (a) within and (b) outside the UK by officials in his Department was Jane Ellison: The causes of brain tumours are largely for each of the last 10 years. [181871] unknown. The only unequivocally identified risk factors are inherited cancer syndromes and, in rare cases, ionising Dr Poulter: The Department is unable to provide radiation. Therefore, we are not currently taking any information requested for the whole 10 year period. steps to prevent brain cancer among children. Information held by the Department by financial year NHS England has responsibility for determining the from 2005-06 to 2012-13 is provided in table 1. This overall national approach to improve clinical outcomes information is provided by the suppliers of the centrally from health care services for children with cancer. One provided contracts for rail and air travel excluding fees of the improvement areas for the national health service or ancillary services. set out in the Government’s mandate to NHS England Table 1 is five year survival from all cancers in children. Air travel Financial year UK (£) International (£) Clinical Commissioning Groups: Bolton 2012-13 28,190 223,658 2011-12 28,653 239,332 2010-11 74,327 313,526 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2009-10 197,813 558,313 what funds per head of population are allocated to the 2008-09 249,220 824,452 Bolton Clinical Commissioning Group for 2013-14. [181313] 2007-08 158,756 640,106 2006-07 141,234 641,204 2005-06 198,199 889,710 Dr Poulter: The allocation per head for NHS Bolton Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) for the 2013-14 Information drawn from the Department’s Business year was £1,127. This will rise to a per head allocation Management System for costs claimed through i-expenses, of £1,158 by 2015-16. 265W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 266W

General Practitioners: Suffolk Suffolk GP practices per capita expenditure 2012-13 Expenditure Practice name (£) List size £/capita Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department spent per capita in Stowmarket 2,090,276 17,156 122 each general practice area in Suffolk Coastal constituency Bildeston 827,623 6,802 122 in the last year for which data is available. [181039] Debenham 1,028,074 8,503 121 Glemsford 563,203 4,687 120 Dr Poulter: Information is not available in the format Victoria Street, 1,303,927 10,871 120 requested. Ipswich Central Surgery, 1,776,680 14,825 120 General practitioner (GP) practices hold contracts Felixstowe with NHS England to undertake work for the national Holbrook 938,468 7,838 120 health service. Funding for payments to GP practices is Haven Health, 790,248 6,619 119 included in the general allocation made to NHS England Felixstowe by the Department. Rosedale Surgery, 1,353,135 11,336 119 Information supplied by NHS England on per capita Lowestoft expenditure for general practices in Suffolk for 2012-13 Chesterfield Drive, 1,281,439 10,781 119 is shown in the following table. Ipswich Bridge Road 1,233,292 10,440 118 Suffolk GP practices per capita expenditure 2012-13 Surgery, Oulton Expenditure Broad Practice name (£) List size £/capita Norwich Road, 1,161,482 9,843 118 Ipswich Forest Surgery, 1,070,478 6,545 164 Brandon Cornish, Christmas 2,073,744 17,582 118 Maltings, Haverhill Bungay Medical 1,667,039 10,791 154 Centre Ixworth 1,074,288 9,152 117 Field Lane 996,518 6,473 154 Victoria Road 1,167,677 9,970 117 Surgery, Surgery, Oulton Kessingland Broad York Road, 748,611 5,059 148 Alexandra Road 1,948,868 16,802 116 Southwold Surgery, Lowestoft Westwood Surgery, 333,123 2,255 148 Botesdale 983,996 8,504 116 Lowestoft Clare 583,700 5,049 116 Saxmundham 1,280,675 8,761 146 Mendlesham 813,094 7,039 116 Barham, Ipswich 238,851 1,675 143 Ivry Street, Ipswich 1,249,165 10,852 115 Andaman Surgery, 844,078 6,016 140 Beccles Medical 2,298,342 20,040 115 Lowestoft Centre Framfield House, 1,612,052 11,654 138 Burlington Road, 1,900,679 16,623 114 Woodbridge Ipswich Leiston 894,606 6,584 136 Swan Surgery, 1,236,797 10,882 114 Marine Parade, 720,506 5,312 136 Swan Surgery Lowestoft Felixstowe Road, 1,209,831 10,658 114 Brandon 764,178 5,657 135 Ipswich Hadleigh 1,935,525 14,374 135 Framlingham 1,042,206 9,182 114 Long Melford. 1,279,501 9,537 134 Mount Farm, Bury 1,510,588 13,320 113 Fressingfield 637,149 .4,793 133 St Edmunds Wickham Market 1,221,689 9,339 131 White House, 754,151 6,662 113 Ravenswood, 1,983,709 15,243 130 Mildenhall Ipswich Combs Fors, 1,139,591 10,120 113 East Bergholt 1,457,150 11,213 130 Stowmarket Howard House, 898,460 6,946 129 Barrack Lane, 1,673,076 14,928 112 Felixstowe Ipswich Aldeburgh 514,644 3,984 129 Martlesham 662,226 5,945 111 Avicenna, Hopton 578,494 4,509 128 Kesgrave 880,385 7,918 111 Guildhall, Bury St 1,407,077 11,073 127 Hawthorn Drive, 853,072 7,708 111 Edmunds and Ipswich Barrow Eye 645,464 5,880 110 Wickhambrook 531,695 4,200 127 High Street 1,153,322 10,516 110 Wool pit 1,683,093 13,368 126 Surgery, Lowesoft Orchard Hse, 1,239,621 9,956 125 Rookery, 1,559,920 14,246 109 Newmarket Newmarket Angel Hill, Bury St 1,774,580 14,283 124 Woodbridge Road, 1,317,110 12,046 109 Edmunds Ipswich Little St John’s 765,778 6,208 123 Deben Road, 854,802 7,829 109 Street, Woodbridge Ipswich Alderton 487,645 3,965 123 Mohan, Christmas 1,114,039 10,226 109 Walton, Felixstowe 512,269 .4,168 123 Maltings, Haverhill Hardwicke House, 2,762,712 22,571 122 Market Cross, 1,157,692 10,629 109 Sudbury Mildenhall 267W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 268W

Suffolk GP practices per capita expenditure 2012-13 conception” outlines considerations regarding the use Expenditure of the macaque model for PNT. The Expert Panel Practice name (£) List size £/capita concluded, in March 2013, that current research using Derby Road, 1,732,317 15,940 109 PNT in macaques has yet to be shown to be successful. Ipswich From unpublished data it appears that macaque zygotes Stourview, 418,197 3,851 109 (one-cell fertilised egg) do not survive the PNT process Haverhill well, but published evidence suggests that there may be Needham Market 1,338,794 12,498 107 important differences between human and macaque Lakenheath 532,167 4,980 107 eggs and early embryos and that the macaque may not Oakfield, 665,738 6,376 104 be a sufficiently good model for the human. Newmarket The Department will be seeking further advice from Lattice Barn, 1,383,798 13,279 104 the Expert Panel about the safety and efficacy of these Ipswich techniques before putting regulations to allow them in Siam Surgery, 892,754 8,740 102 treatment before Parliament. Sudbury Orchard Medical 1,302,793 12,764 102 Mental Health Services Centre, Ipswich Landseer Road, 343,260 3,381 102 Ipswich Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Orchard Street, 479,468 5,056 95 Health (1) what estimate he has made of bed occupancy Ipswich rates in NHS mental health trusts in England; and if he Total 89,136,464 743,386 120 will make a statement; [181755] Notes: (2) what assessment his Department has made of the Data based on list size as at January 2013 and expenditure for quality of patient care in NHS acute mental health 2012-13 financial year. Source: services; and if he will make a statement; [181757] NHS England (3) what steps are being taken to ensure mental health patients have appropriate access to crisis care In Vitro Fertilisation and early intervention services; [181758] (4) what indicators will be used by his Department to Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Health assess whether the NHS is delivering parity of esteem pursuant to the answer of 7 November 2013, Official for mental health and physical health; and if he will Report, column 322W, on in vitro fertilisation, (1) what make a statement; [181759] the survival rate was of human embryos following pronuclear transfer in available published studies; (5) what progress NHS England has made in its [181736] review of calculating the proportion of the NHS budget spent on mental health conditions; [181761] (2) what the survival rate was of macaque embryos following pronuclear transfer; [181737] (6) what assessment his Department has made of the (3) what assessment his Department has made of effectiveness and efficacy of the commissioning of whether the use of proposed new techniques to prevent specialised services for mental health conditions following mitochondrial disorders will be more or less effective the passage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012; when used with human embryos than has been the case [181762] with macaque embryos. [181738] (7) when his Department plans to review the commissioning of specialised services for mental health Jane Ellison: The Department has taken advice on conditions following the passage of the Health and the safety and efficacy of mitochondrial donation over Social Care Act 2012. [181763] the last three years from an Expert Panel convened by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority Norman Lamb: The information requested for mental (HFEA). health bed occupancy rates in national health service The Expert Panel’s April 2011 report “Scientific review trusts in England is not held in the format requested. of the safety and efficacy of methods to avoid mitochondrial However, the NHS Health and Social Care Information disease through assisted conception”references a published Centre do collect information on the mental health bed study regarding pronuclear transfer in human embryos: occupancy and availability rates for all NHS trusts. Craven L, H. A. Tuppen, et al. (2010) “Pronuclear Information collected from 2010-11 is shown in the transfer in human embryos to prevent transmission of following tables: mitochondrial DNA disease.” Nature 465(7294):82-5. Title: Average daily available and occupied beds timeseries Section 4.2.4 of the Expert Panel’s report outlines the Number study’s findings regarding the survival rate of human Available embryos following pronuclear transfer (PNT), in terms General of the rate of blastocyst (an embryo at around the six and Learning Mental day stage) formation following PNT on abnormally- Year Period Total acute disability Maternity illness fertilised eggs. 2010-11 Q1 144,455 110,568 2,465 7,906 23,515 Research is currently ongoing at the University of 2010-11 Q2 141,477 108,349 2,237 7,962 22,929 Newcastle Wellcome Trust Centre for Mitochondrial Research. 2010-11 Q3 141,630 108,023 2,088 7,778 23,740 2010-11 Q4 142,319 108,890 1,974 7,848 23,607 Section 2.2.8 of the Expert Panel’s March 2013 update 2011-12 Q1 137,354 104,574 1,721 7,805 23,253 report “Scientific review of the safety and efficacy of 2011-12 Q2 138,525 105,545 1,784 7,987 23,208 methods to avoid mitochondrial disease through assisted 269W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 270W

Title: Average daily available and occupied beds timeseries Quality at a national level is assessed through a Number number of measures including through National Clinical Available Audits and Confidential Inquiries which are commissioned General by NHS England. The National Clinical Audit is designed and Learning Mental to assess and improve patient outcomes across a wide Year Period Total acute disability Maternity illness range of medical, surgical and mental health conditions. 2011-12 Q3 137,963 105,245 1,756 7,946 23,016 NHS England is making a number of changes in 2011-12 Q4 140,454 107,449 1,937 7,948 23,121 respect of ensuring greater parity of esteem between 2012-13 Q1 137,287 104,888 1,966 7,883 22,550 mental health and acute services, as a result of the 2012-13 Q2 135,559 103,730 1,743 7,816 22,269 review of incentives, rewards and sanctions. These are 2012-13 Q3 136,044 103,956 1,728 7,864 22,496 in the NHS Standard Contract and the Commissioning for Quality and Innovation (CQUIN) scheme. 2012-13 Q4 138,178 106,374 1,697 7,839 22,268 2013-14 Q1 136,487 104,917 1,706 7,755 22,109 Within the NHS Standard Contract for 2014-15, we 2013-14 Q2 135,077 103,717 1,662 7,672 22,025 will: establish a specific mandated financial sanction in respect of provider performance against the existing standard for patients Number on the Care Programme Approach to be followed up within Occupied one week of discharge; and General introduce new standards, again with specific mandated financial and Learning Mental sanctions, for completion of Mental Health Minimum Data Year Period Total acute disability Maternity illness Set returns, in respect of completion of the fields relating to 2010-11 Q1 122,551 95,430 1,895 4,756 20,470 ethnicity and Improving Access to Psychological Therapies Minimum Data Set returns relating to patient outcomes. 2010-11 Q2 119,298 92,775 1,766 4,87.9 19,878 2010-11 Q3 121,497 94,741 1,618 4,738 20,400 Of the four national CQUIN indicators proposed for 2010-11 Q4 123,279 96,566 1,519 4,738 20,456 2014-15, two will relate specifically to mental health services—the Dementia and Delirium indicator and a 2011-12 Q1 116,452 90,317 1,341 4,616 20,178 new indicator, applicable to mental health providers 2011-12 Q2 116,372 89,981 1,412 4,841 20,139 only, on improving physical health care to reduce premature 2011-12 Q3 117,708 91,448 1,340 4,841 20,079 mortality in people with severe, mental illness. The third 2011-12 Q4 122,105 95,633 1,450 4,851 20,171 national indicator is the Friends and Family Test, a 2012-13 Q1 118,064 92,145 1,457 4,730 19,732 measurement of patient experience which will be rolled 2012-13 Q2 115,730 89,917 1,414 4,736 19,663 out to mental health service providers during 2014-15. 2012-13 Q3 116,974 91,347 1,385 4,631 19,610 (The fourth indicator is the NHS Safety Thermometer.) 2012-13 Q4 121,108 95,516 1,378 4,486 19,728 The Care Quality Commission (CQC) is responsible 2013-14 Q1 118,100 92,812 1,355 4,406 19,527 for developing and consulting on its methodology for 2013-14 Q2 115,126 89,619 1,357 4,500 19,650 assessing whether providers are meeting the registration requirements. On 29 November 2013, the CQC published Percentage the report ‘Afresh start for the regulation and inspection Percentage occupied of mental health services’. The report sets out changes General the CQC is proposing to make in the way it inspects and Learning Mental specialist mental health care services. The key changes Year Period Total acute disability Maternity illness are: 2010-11 Q1 84.8 86.3 76.9 60.2 87.1 including mental health specialists on all inspections of mental 2010-11 Q2 84.3 85.6 78.9 61.3 86.7 health services and bringing together our work under the 2010-11 Q3 85.8 87.7 77.5 60.9 85.9 Mental Health Act and how we regulate mental health services; 2010-11 Q4 86.6 88.7 77.0 60.4 86.6 setting up inspection teams of specialist inspectors, Experts by 2011-12 Q1 84.8 86.4 77.9 59.1 86.8 Experience and professional experts; 2011-12 Q2 84.0 85.3 79.1 60.6 86.8 rating mental health services with one of the following: Outstanding, Good, Requires improvement or Inadequate; 2011-12 Q3 85.3 86.9 76.3 60.9 87.2 2011-12 Q4 86.9 89.0 74.8 61.0 87.2 engaging with people who use services, their carers and families, during inspections and at other times in new ways; 2012-13 Q1 86.0 87.9 74.1 60.0 87.5 making sure we have better information about mental health 2012-13 Q2 85.4 86.7 81.1 60.6 88.3 services and developing our intelligent monitoring system for 2012-13 Q3 86.0 87.9 80.2 58.9 87.2 these services; 2012-13 Q4 87.6 89.8 81.2 57.2 88.6 looking at how people are cared for as they move between 2013-14 Q1 86.5 88.5 79.4 56.8 88.3 services; and 2013-14 Q2 85.2 86.4 81.6 58.6 89.2 recognising that mental health treatment and support is part of Notes: services in all sectors. 1. Summary: KH03 collects the number of available and occupied beds open overnight that are under the care of consultants. The Department is currently working with a range of 2. Period: Q1 2010-11 to Q2 2013-14. agencies and representative organisations to develop a Source: single national Crisis Care Concordat. It is important NHS England: Unify2 data collection—KH03 that people receive the right type of high quality care at the right time. Handling mental health problems early Clinical commissioning groups are responsible for in the community means that acute care is then available commissioning non-specialised acute mental health services to people who need it quickly. Secondary mental health and use the standard NHS contract and associated services have been reorganised to improve care in the quality parameters. community and in hospitals. 271W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 272W

Improving early intervention services remains a key NHS England has directions on the commissioning national priority. The cross-Government mental health of high secure services and reports annually to the strategy, ‘No Health Without Mental Health’, highlights Department. the case for prevention and early intervention and the costs of doing nothing. NHS 111 Public Health England’s priorities for 2013-14 include a commitment to Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many calls were received by NHS 111 on “develop a national programme on mental health in public health that supports ‘No Health Without Mental Health’, prioritising (a) 24, (b) 25 and (c) 26 December 2013; and how the promotion of mental wellbeing, prevention of mental health many clinicians were on duty at NHS 111 on those problems and the prevention of suicide, along with improving the dates. [181408] wellbeing of those living with and recovering from mental illness.” We will hold the NHS to account for the quality of Jane Ellison: The total number of calls received by services and outcomes for mental health patients through NHS 111 for the dates requested are: the NHS Outcomes Framework. There are four measures 22,505 on 24 December 2013; which relate specifically to mental health. Improvements 32,093 on 25 December 2013; and for people with mental health problems will also be a 51,730 on 26 December 2013. crucial element of success across the framework as a Information on the number of clinicians on duty at whole. NHS 111 sites is not collected. The Department has also recently published the Mental Health Dashboard which brings together mental health Radiotherapy outcomes data to show progress made against the ‘Mental Health Strategy No Health without mental health’. Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health This is available at: (1) pursuant to NHS England’s document Improving www.gov.uk/government/publications/mental-health-dashboard Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer Third Annual Report, paragraph 5.17 on stereotactic ablative radiotherapy NHS England plans to publish annual estimates of (SABR), how NHS England plans to examine the potential NHS commissioned expenditure by health care condition, utility of SABR to treat oligometastic disease; [181036] which will include an analysis of mental health expenditure. NHS England is currently working with stakeholders to (2) pursuant to NHS England’s document Standards establish the format, processes and timetable for the for the Provision of Stereotactic Ablative Radiotherapy data collection. (SABR), for what specific cancers other than early stage lung cancer SABR has clear benefits; [181037] NHS England works with the 10 Area Teams responsible (3) pursuant to NHS England’s document Standards for commissioning specialist mental health services locally, for the Provision of Stereotactic Ablative Radiotherapy meeting monthly to ensure consistency in approach and (SABR), section 2.2 Service description/care pathway, equity for patients. All aspects of the standard NHS what programmes NHS England has in place to measure contract apply equally to specialised mental health services the cost and clinical effectiveness of SABR treatment and the same national mandated requirements apply. for renal cancer, hepatic primary tumours, hepatic Clinical Reference Groups (CRGs) cover the full metastases, spinal tumours and oligometastases against range of specialised services and are responsible for (a) conventional radiotherapy and (b) surgical procedures. providing NHS England with clinical advice regarding [181038] these directly commissioned services. The CRGs are made up of clinicians, commissioners, public health Jane Ellison: The radiotherapy clinical reference group experts and patients and carers, and are responsible for is undertaking a review of the role and evidence to the delivery of key ’products’ such as service specifications support the use of stereotactic ablative radiotherapy and commissioning policies, which enable NHS England (SABR) in oligometastic disease. This review wilt consider to commission services from specialist providers through the options for collecting additional evidence of its the contracting arrangements overseen by its Area Teams. clinical and cost-effectiveness which be used to inform CRGs approach the development of service specifications NHS England’s commissioning position. and quality standards from a clinically effective, patient Current evidence only supports the routine use of centred perspective. SABR for a small subset of patients with early non-small NHS England now has one contract per independent cell lung cancer, as set out in NHS England’s commissioning sector provider with different Area Teams taking the policy statement on SABR. NHS England’s SABR lead for individual providers. This ensures greater commissioning policy statement will be reviewed in consistency with regard to services expectations and April 2014, at which time the radiotherapy clinical quality. Each Area Team is responsible for the quality reference group will examine whether further evidence and safety of the services in their catchment area, and has come to light regarding the clinical and cost-effectiveness will work with the Area Team that holds the contract to of SABR in treating other cancers. ensure key messages and areas of concern are pursued contractually if required. NHS England also case manages Rail Travel secure patients within each specialised Area Team catchment area to ensure they are in the right place, at the right Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for time receiving the right treatment. Child and Adolescent Health what the total cost of rail travel in both directions Mental Health Services case management has also been between London and Leeds by officials in his Department introduced and is being rolled out. was in each of the last 10 years. [181881] 273W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 274W

Dr Poulter: The Department is unable to provide Dr Poulter: Neither the Secretary of State for Health, information requested for the whole 10 year period. my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Costs for rail travel for each financial year are available Surrey (Mr Hunt), nor his Ministers have received since April 2005 and are shown in the following table: broadcast media training in the last 12 months.

£ Rail travel from Rail travel from Financial year Leeds to London London to Leeds CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

2012-13 624,170 236,813 Credit: Interest Rates 2011-12 741,419 223,565 2010-11 964,694 243,568 Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 1,630,659 469,521 Culture, Media and Sport what plans she has to ban 2008-09 1,755,670 501,936 adverts for payday loan companies from television 2007-08 1,439,966 465,747 programmes aimed at children. [181707] 2006-07 1,351,553 381,622 2005-06 1,466,579 492,566 Sajid Javid: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Treasury. Data are taken from Management Information from Payday loan adverts are subject to the Advertising centrally-provided contracts used by officials to book Standards Authority’s strict content rules. The ASA travel and hotel accommodation. Information drawn will not hesitate to ban irresponsible adverts, and has a from the Department’s Business Management System strong track record of doing so. for costs claimed through i-expenses, where staff have incurred legitimate business costs themselves and The Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice subsequently claimed reimbursement, is not included as (BCAP), the body that writes the Broadcast Advertising it is not possible to establish where journeys originated Code, is considering the extent to which payday loan and ended. advertising features on children’s TV and whether there are any implications for the ASA’s regulation of this Training sector. Separately, the Financial Conduct Authority is consulting Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for on new rules for consumer credit adverts, including Health what broadcast media training he or ministers in proposals to introduce mandatory risk warnings and his Department have undergone in the last 12 months; signposting to debt advice. It has powers to ban misleading and what the total cost of such training was. [181883] adverts which breach its rules. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 8 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 290 WALES—continued Engagements...... 290 Living Standards...... 284 Renewables (Jobs) ...... 283 WALES...... 281 Tourism...... 289 Block Grant ...... 281 Transport Infrastructure ...... 288 Draft Wales Bill ...... 287 Universal Credit...... 288 WRITTEN STATEMENT

Wednesday 8 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 15WS Air Navigation Guidance...... 15WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 8 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .7PTRANSPORT ...... 9P Development of a Public Open Space near Astro Heaton Chapel Train Station (Stockport) ...... 9P Grove (Longton, Stoke-on-Trent)...... 7P Redevelopment of the Old Royal Ordnance Factory Site (Puriton, Somerset)...... 8P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 8 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 231W DEFENCE—continued Business: Scotland ...... 231W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 256W EU External Trade: USA...... 231W EU Law...... 232W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 247W Higher Education: Finance ...... 232W Electricity...... 247W Electricity Generation...... 247W CABINET OFFICE...... 248W Renewable Energy: Scotland ...... 248W Minister Without Portfolio ...... 248W Open Government Partnership ...... 249W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Pay...... 250W AFFAIRS...... 259W Pay: Northamptonshire...... 250W Beef: Horse Meat ...... 259W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 256W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 246W Fire Services...... 256W South Sudan ...... 246W Local Government Finance: North Yorkshire...... 257W Private Rented Housing: Construction...... 257W HEALTH...... 263W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 258W Abortion ...... 263W Air Travel...... 263W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 274W Brain Cancer: Children ...... 264W Credit: Interest Rates ...... 274W Clinical Commissioning Groups: Bolton...... 264W General Practitioners: Suffolk...... 265W DEFENCE...... 251W In Vitro Fertilisation ...... 267W Afghanistan ...... 251W Mental Health Services ...... 268W Chief of Defence Materiel ...... 252W NHS 111 ...... 272W Defence Equipment and Support...... 252W Radiotherapy ...... 272W Defence: Procurement...... 252W Rail Travel...... 272W EU Battlegroups ...... 253W Training ...... 273W EU Common Foreign and Security Policy ...... 253W Gibraltar...... 254W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 233W Libya...... 255W Human Trafficking ...... 233W South Sudan ...... 256W Khat...... 234W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued TRANSPORT—continued Police: Greater London...... 234W Virgin Trains ...... 262W Police: Information ...... 234W West Coast Railway Line ...... 262W Translation Services ...... 235W TREASURY ...... 236W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 231W Business: Investment ...... 236W Hays...... 231W Credit: Interest Rates ...... 237W Debts: Developing Countries ...... 237W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 242W Double Taxation ...... 237W Developing Countries: Forests ...... 242W Inflation: Housing...... 238W Developing Countries: Politics and Government.... 243W National Insurance Contributions: Immigrants ..... 238W Developing Countries: Sanitation ...... 244W NATO...... 238W International Assistance...... 244W Network Rail ...... 238W Palestinians ...... 245W Olympic Games 2012: Touting...... 239W South Sudan ...... 245W Written Questions ...... 239W Sudan and South Sudan...... 246W WALES...... 235W Autumn Statement...... 236W TRANSPORT ...... 259W Broadband ...... 235W Airports: Thames Estuary...... 259W Shale Gas...... 236W Caldervale Railway Line ...... 259W Driving: Young People...... 260W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 240W Northern Rail ...... 261W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 240W Pedestrian Crossings ...... 261W Members: Correspondence ...... 240W Roads: Safety Measures ...... 262W Social Security Benefits...... 240W Rolling Stock ...... 262W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 241W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 8 January 2014

Death of a Member [Col. 281]

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 281] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Haass Talks [Col. 303] Statement—(Mrs Villiers)

Driving Offences (Review of Sentencing Guidelines) [Col. 325] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Susan Elan Jones)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [16th allotted day] Housing [Col. 328] Motion—(Hilary Benn)—on a Division, negatived Fixed Odds Betting Terminals [Col. 365] Motion—(Clive Efford)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mrs Grant)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

UKTI (West Midlands) [Col. 421] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Planning Reform [Col. 77WH] Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation [Col. 102WH] Health Care (London) [Col. 109WH] Scotch Whisky Excise Duty [Col. 134WH] Rural Broadband (North Yorkshire) [Col. 142WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statement [Col. 15WS]

Petitions [Col. 7P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 231W] [see index inside back page]