Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN

AN COMHCHOISTE UM IOMPAR AGUS CUMARSÁID

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS

Dé Céadaoin, 21 Deireadh Fómhair 2015

Wednesday, 21 October 2015

The Joint Committee met at 9.30 a.m.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

Deputy Michael Colreavy, Senator Sean D. Barrett, Deputy Timmy Dooley, Senator Terry Brennan, Deputy Dessie Ellis, Senator Eamonn Coghlan, Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice, Senator Paschal Mooney. Deputy Brendan Griffin, Deputy Noel Harrington, Deputy Seán Kenny, Deputy Michael McCarthy, Deputy Helen McEntee, Deputy Michael Moynihan,

DEPUTY JOHN O’MAHONY IN THE CHAIR.

1 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate The joint committee met in private session until 10.05 a.m.

Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate

Chairman: I propose we go into public session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Paschal Mooney: Before we start, I have a query. Mr. Mulvey is very welcome. His presentation runs to 15 pages and I was wondering if we could get a condensed view of it. I do not mind listening through the whole 15 pages.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: It was not my intention to read out the 15 pages to the committee.

Chairman: I call the meeting to order. No. 7 is engagement with the chairperson designate of Sport Ireland. The purpose of this morning’s meeting is to engage with the chairperson designate of Sport Ireland, the body charged with the merged functions of the former Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority, to discuss the proposals to take, if and when appointed to the role, and his views on the challenges currently facing the body. We are all by now very well aware of the Government decision in May 2011 which put new arrangements in place for the appointments of persons to State boards and bodies. Refer- ence to this arrangement is also made in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform guidelines on appointments to State boards of November 2014. The committee welcomes the opportunity to meet with the chairperson designate, Mr. Kieran Mulvey, and to hear his views. We trust this provides greater transparency to the process of appointment to our State boards and bodies. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Mulvey, whom most members will know well from previous appearances before the committee.

I draw attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise that any submissions or opening statements witnesses have made to the committee will be published on the committee website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long- standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting me to address them this morning in regard to my nomination by the Government as chairman designate of the new entity of Sport Ireland. I look forward to my engagement with the committee today and I hope that members will, on the basis of what I have to say, endorse my appointment to this critical role in Irish life. I was very privileged to be appointed chairman of the Irish Sports Council and I humbly acknowledge the honour that has been bestowed on me by the Government, and will I hope be bestowed on me by this committee, in being appointed to the chairmanship of Sport Ireland.

2 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications As members will be aware from their deliberations on the act leading up to its report of March 2014, the proposal which arises is the merging of the Irish Sports Council with the National Sports Campus Development Authority and the creation of one statutory body, Sport Ireland. That has to be a welcome development in the context of maximising synergies and resources and enabling concentration on the development of sports in Ireland, at local and national level and through the national governing bodies. It will also utilise the physical capacity and capability of the national campus itself, which is a hallmark development for the position- ing of national sports in one campus and should add value to that effort.

Sport Ireland will be a composite of four bodies, including Coaching Ireland, the Irish Insti- tute of Sport, the high performance section of the Irish Sports Council and the campus. Creating synergy is important and has already been achieved through Coaching Ireland and the institute of sport working under the Irish Sports Council. The new board will focus on developing potential within the one entity. I do not think it will be difficult to achieve as both the Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority have worked very closely with the Department and Ministers over the past number of years. It is not as if it is a shotgun marriage - it is a joint venture that has the support of everybody involved. It is positive that we have worked in tandem in the past and hopefully we will do so as one entity in the future.

Since my appointment as chairman of the Irish Sports Council, I have made it a point, subject to the time available, to visit as many NGB occasions as possible, be they conferences, special events, dinners or award ceremonies. I think I have got to most of them, even the Irish Amateur Boxing Association and its national competitions. I have established a very good working relationship with the chief executives, the presidents and the honorary officers of the boards of those organisations. I have met them individually and collectively and listened to them on the subject of their funding arrangements for each year. Despite some difficulties, 99% of the time spent there constitutes a good working relationship among the campus, the Irish Sports Council and the NGBs. Of particular importance to me have been my relationships with the Olympic Council of Ireland and its president, Pat Hickey, Paralympics Ireland and its chief executive, Liam Harbison and Matt English of Special Olympics Ireland. These are very important bodies that do very important work, both nationally and internationally, on behalf of athletes of all capabilities. That is important because dysfunctional relationships among individuals and organisations have riven sport in the past, leading to unseemly rows about certain issues, although thankfully this is not happening at the moment.

Managing the situation over the past five years has been a challenge with the restraints in public expenditure and cutbacks in sport. Particularly important aspects of that have been the continuation of the sports capital programme, which has been a vital component to NGBs, and the effective and generous use by the Department and the Minister of dormant accounts for equipment. That has put Irish sport and the NGBs in a good place, both from the point of view of facilities and equipment, and we are getting a payback from those organisations for the investment of a considerable volume of taxpayers’ money over the period. We cannot have much of an argument with the various sports for the return they have made on the taxpayers’ investment, through the Government and the Oireachtas. They are largely excellent people of calibre, integrity, ability and achievement.

At an international level this success has been reflected in medalling, which has been a fea- ture in international competition in the past five years. This is the pinnacle which enables us to wrap the green flag around us and we enjoy seeing podium finishes for our athletes and teams and the tricolour alongside the flags of other nations of the world. To use a phrase which may

3 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate be a bit unfortunate in the current circumstances, we box above our weight in a multiplicity of sports. One of the excellent features in sport in the past number of years is the extent to which, outside our own national sports, participation levels have increased. We are now getting back into sailing and, hopefully, rowing has come of age. We are bringing though individual athletes in track and field to follow what John Treacy and Senator Eamonn Coghlan achieved before them. We have identified and brought forward really good junior talent, particularly through the women in sport programme, without which we would not have Annalise Murphy or Katie Taylor to set an example of excellence. There are hundreds coming through the system.

The high-performance endeavour and special programmes such as women in sport are bear- ing reward for the nation, not just in our national sports of Gaelic football, hurling and camogie but also in minority sports such as cricket, hockey, equestrian sports, sailing and judo. Merg- ing athletes such as triathletes and modern pentathletes are now featuring at international level, having had little or no participation or excellence in the past. The one great sadness of the Olympic Games in London was that we had two fourth places. We were so close to additional medals and those athletes have continued to perform at world level. The Irish Institute of Sport has been a marvellous development. Coaching Ireland, based in the University of Limerick, is also an outstanding organisational arrangement for developing coaches in all the disciplines. Those who participate in our main field sports now perform to a level not achieved before. The numbers are on an upward trend and, according to the ESRI’s Irish sports monitor assessment, we have almost reached parity in terms of female and male participation in sport. We hope to have this parity within the next two or three years.

The functions of Sport Ireland have been laid out and I will now discuss its targets for the next four or five years. These include: ensuring the board and executive operate effectively; that the interchange with, funding for and arrangements in respect of national governing bodies are brought forward and that targets in respect of participation, winning medals, coaching and success which can be achieved but which are both realistic and challenging are set for them. The national governing bodies will, therefore, be very important. Sport Ireland must also ensure the facilities, coaches and high-performance directors are in place and that local sports partnerships are structured and funded to bring about synergies between sports.

The committee’s report dealt with the facilities in which the State has invested and I am very glad of this. The State has provided billions of euro for physical facilities for all sports throughout the country. These must be shared and utilised appropriately and properly, and it is the same for third level and second level institutions, which must be utilised and maximised, with the agreement and support of all of the national governing bodies, to bring forward greater participation. This is not just about people engaged in sport, it is also about wider community activity, including on the part of older and younger individuals who may not be involved in competitive sports but who are involved in leisure sports. I hope we will make more effort in the capital sports programme to ensure that those expensive facilities do not lie fallow and are utilised by local communities. I appreciate there are ownership and leasing issues and that individual sports must take priority in the context of using their own facilities. However, there are times when there is greater availability for local communities and other non-competitive training and coaching activities.

We all remember the controversy about what was euphemistically termed “the Bertie bowl”. However, the decision to acquire the 500 acres of land where it was to be situated was a far- sighted one. My regret is that this is top-quality agricultural land and my heart goes out when I see it being dug up in order that buildings might be erected. The land is strategically located

4 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications in Abbotstown, which is located off the M50, and the facility there is tremendous. It is prob- ably the hidden gem of Irish physical sports development but it is coming on stream in leaps and bounds, with buy-in from the various sports organisations. In addition, some 20 national governing bodies - including that of the FAI - have located their headquarters there and there are more to come on board, including Sport Ireland. We are supposed to be accommodated in Ab- botstown House, which is to be renovated. If the yard is available and is restructured and renovated, Sport Ireland will go in there to show there is a physical location for all of the agencies.

I hope that in the next five years we will complete the indoor arena - the project relating to which is proceeding on schedule - and tender for and complete the construction of a velodrome, particularly as we have to win medals in the sport of cycling. From the point of view of developing cycling in Ireland, there is a need for a velodrome and it is the next infrastructural project. After this are two considerations I have heard from certain national governing bodies, particularly the FAI, the GAA and the IRFU, namely, that there is a need for covered stadia, particularly in view of the nature of Irish weather, in order that training can take place on a year- round basis. Perhaps we can examine this matter in the context of development.

There is a need for accommodation on the campus. I am not sure as to the nature of the accommodation required but the project seems right for a public private partnership of some description, particularly in view of the proximity to Blanchardstown Institute of Technology, Connolly Hospital and Dublin City University. In addition, there is a need for the IRFU, the FAI, occasionally the GAA, and hockey and other sports to be accommodated on the campus. There may be a prospect for commercial development, perhaps a hotel or whatever. The big issue regarding the future development of the campus is making it pay so it does not become a burden on the taxpayer and at least breaks even or makes a profit. Perhaps we do not need all of the land. I would need to be reassured about this. There is pressure in the area for further business park expansion and for Connolly Hospital to be developed further. Perhaps we could generate additional funding for public private partnerships which would not be a burden on the taxpayer as private money could be generated to build some of the facilities.

The committee is aware of the legacy issue regarding an outstanding legal case with Dublin Waterworld. This matter is still before the courts and I do not wish to comment further on it. It is an issue to which I must devote my attention immediately because it has proved to be an extraordinary drain on resources and has required major input on the part of the executive of the organisation. We must resolve this matter, either through the courts or by means of another arrangement.

A meeting will be held later today with Cricket Ireland about developing Malahide. We need a national cricket ground because 10,000 people will go to see the Irish cricket team play tests. We want to be a test nation. We have done a deal and signed a memorandum with Fingal County Council, under its chief executive, Paul Reid, and it is ready to go. I hope the Minister can show some largesse because the project will cost approximately €3 million to complete. We cannot erect stands every time Ireland needs to play a cricket match. It is an ideal venue and has North-South connectivity.

The North-South dimension with Sport Northern Ireland is important. A meeting was recently held with Ministers and chief executives, and we have decided to have an annual meeting. We will continue to share operations because we have all-Ireland sports and it is very important that we do not overlap and duplicate facilities which can be available on all of the island to everybody. Everywhere is within driving distance now and one does not need to fly anywhere. The more we keep our coaches and athletes at home, the better it will be for them in 5 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate the context of increasing capability and creating additionality.

In broad scope, these are the areas I hope to develop. There will be others which the committee will require us to address in our annual reports.

Chairman: I thank Mr. Mulvey. He has given a very clear outline of the challenges and opportunities that exist, as well as his vision for the maximisation of potential of sport in Ireland with regard to participation and at the high-performance and elite levels.

From time to time, the committee has questions about governing bodies. My general question is whether Mr. Mulvey is happy with the governance of those bodies. In recent days, the issue of boxing has arisen. Mr. Mulvey mentioned it earlier. I welcome the stand he took on “Prime Time” last night and I know the Minister has also been involved and has been working hard on the matter. Have we lost the best boxing coach Ireland has ever had or is the situation redeemable? If we have lost him, how did it come to this? I raised this matter two years ago when concerns first began to arise. Mr. Mulvey mentioned the synergies with Sport Northern Ireland and that there cannot be duplication. Do boxers and athletes in Northern Ireland receive grants from both Sport Northern Ireland and Sport Ireland, while their counterparts in the Re- public do not? Is that still the case?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: On the issue of governance, the sports council had to undergo a certain governance review in light of other developments. That was conducted for us by the governance specialists in the Institute of Public Administration. They made a number of observations we have incorporated and agreed, and that relates to a lacuna that existed in our organisation about what needed to be done.

We provide governance and code of ethics courses for the national governing bodies, NGBs, of sport. The kernel of the issue is that without appropriate governance, transparency and accountability, everything goes for naught. If they are not established, clear and understood, all the rest becomes tangential. We need structures that are conscious of and conform to normal governance standards. These organisations get substantial amounts of taxpayers’ money and that must be accounted for. That is a requirement and necessary.

With respect to the issue with the Irish Amateur Boxing Association, IABA, in my five years as chairman of the Irish Sports Council, it is my view that what we have been trying to manage is a dysfunctional arrangement. I am putting it mildly when I say that. The history with the Irish Amateur Boxing Association is long and there have been problems in successive years prior to and during my time in this job. It is around issues of governance and how the organisation is run at a national level.

I want to make a particular point regarding my interview last night. It was not included in the publicised section but I made an issue about future funding and requirements around a review of engagements. I am not threatening any boxer, coach or club; they will be protected by us. I am saying we are not happy at the top level about how this organisation is being run and its engagement with the “head coach”. It does not even call him the director of high performance, which is the post for which we approved funding. We are not happy with the way, since last February, negotiations - or no negotiations - have been concluded. Gross disrespect has been shown to us and the Minister in this matter, and it cannot be allowed to go on. The IABA is a totally funded body, with almost €2 million going in between capital, equipment and day-today expenses. It is not about the boxers, clubs or coaches. We are delighted with the calibre of boxers and coaches and the social inclusion that the sport brings in our community. We have a

6 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications serious problem with the individuals leading this organisation.

How is it we have got to this stage? How did it happen 24 hours before Mr. Billy Walsh departs to the United States to take up an appointment that puts him in direct opposition to Ire- land in male and female boxing? We are allowing the best boxing coach in the world to leave and all the organisation gave was one paragraph, saying in effect, “Thank you very much and good-bye, and by the way there is a load of other people ready to take the job”. I have never seen such crocodile tears in all my life.

Chairman: Is it the case that the agreement hammered out verbally changed when it went to contract?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I will speak about the deal hammered out. It was not verbal. I am in this business for a long time. Deputies will know that people write down what was agreed. This was agreed and we shook hands on it but it then disappeared in some ether in the IABA of sub-committees or whatever. I do not know and we have never had an adequate explanation.

Chairman: When was that agreement made? Was it just last week?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: No, this was on 22 August. We were so concerned about this at council level that I asked council to meet representatives in the IABA as a matter of urgency. We met them at our request. That followed a series of engagements going back to last Febru- ary. I met them on 20 August along with the chief executive; Mr. Paul McDermott, the high performance and NGB liaison officer with the sports council; Mr. Bernard Allen, vice chairman of the council, former Minister of State with responsibility for sport and former Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts; and Mr. Liam Sheedy, who would be known to members in GAA circles and is chairman of our high performance committee. We put the point to them as to how urgent and essential it was that this should be resolved, as Mr. Walsh had an offer from the United States, which he had not accepted or signed. We needed to move. I got so upset at that meeting that towards the end, I had to ask the directors present if they wanted to keep Mr. Walsh. I got an answer of “Yes”. After that meeting, I consulted with colleagues and said it was the most unconvincing “Yes” I have heard in my professional career.

We then insisted that they would meet with us as a matter of urgency within the next 48 hours. I cancelled other arrangements and scheduled at meeting on the Saturday morning in the Clayton Hotel in Leopardstown. Over three or four hours, the meeting took place with Mr. Walsh present, along with the chief executive of the IABA and a board of directors member. I thought the chairman would have at least attended but he did not. I do not know the reason he did not. I attended because I thought it so important. We negotiated a deal over four hours and shook hands and that was to be brought back to the board of directors of the IABA for approval. We were told on one day it would be done but on Monday evening we were told that a sub-committee had decided it would not be put to the board. After that, the issue cascaded.

The Minister called us together in Athlone and I attended the meeting. We heard all the good noises to the effect that the issue would be sorted out and Mr. Walsh would be given a new contract. His permanent contract would be changed to a fixed-term contract. Everything would be okay. The Minister was assured, right up to the weekend, that everything would be all right. It may be for another occasion but the issue was what they were asking Mr. Walsh to do on the non-financial side; there was no problem with the financial aspects, as we, through the State and taxpayers, would have been funding it. I will give an example of a non-financial issue. The high performance or head coach could not engage with the Olympic Council of Ireland, the

7 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate Irish Sports Council or the media without the written permission of the chief executive officer. We do not operate on that basis. There are meetings on a weekly or monthly basis. Imagine an organisation saying this to its chief coach. Imagine Joe Schmidt being told he had to contact Mr. Philip Browne every time he selected a team, made a decision or talked to the media.

This is unconscionable and unacceptable. I am sorry to be very strong about this but we are losing the best coach in this area. I do not mind if there are other good coaches. We have the best man, who has been poached by the United States with oceans of money. It is not the first time Mr. Walsh has been approached. What do we do on the eve of the Olympics? We let him go.

Chairman: It cannot be retrieved now.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I settle things sometimes at 5 a.m., 6 a.m. or 7 a.m., before the aero- planes, trains, buses or other things start to run. I do not give up until the fat lady sings. I do not know if Mr. Walsh has signed a contract. He is going to the United States and the organisation has clearly told him good bye and good luck. Even if he did sign a contract, we would end up managing it for the next five years. That is how bad it is.

Chairman: I have heard many incredible stories over the years as I am involved with sport but never anything like that. Thank you for articulating that account.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: I thank Mr. Mulvey for his presentation. He has been before the committee before and his reputation precedes him. My party will absolutely support his appointment as chair of Sport Ireland. We are fortunate to have somebody of his calibre, skills and patience to take on the job at hand. Ordinarily, the witness would be able to leave meetings of this kind quite speedily but, unfortunately, because of what has come into sharp focus over the past number of days, as the Chairman alluded to, the issue is worthy of further discussion.

When somebody such as the witness appears before the committee, generally I ask what we can do for them as legislators. Our role, in terms of sport or any other area, is to enact laws. It is for the Government to provide funding but for us as mere parliamentarians our role is to draft legislation and improve legislation as it currently exists. The witness has set out the back- ground to the current situation in respect of the Irish Amateur Boxing Association. Effectively, it is giving the two fingers to Mr. Mulvey as chairperson of Sports Ireland, it is giving the two fingers to the taxpayers, it has already given it to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport so it somehow believes it is insulated from reality, authority and, more important, the paymas- ter, the Irish people. That is appalling given the context in which we are trying to develop our high performance sports.

What changes would the witness like to see put in place to strengthen his hand as chairman of Sports Ireland to allow him go back to the individuals, the CEO, the chairman and the board of the Irish Amateur Boxing Association and to put him in a position to say it cannot continue to perform as it has been doing and if it continues to do so funding will have to be removed. Who pays the CEO of the boxing association? Who funds the chairman’s trips around the world to various events? I do not know if he is paid as an executive or remunerated through expenses. It is a classic case of the green blazer brigade exercising authority for the sake of it to protect its own castle. It is continuously poking the finger in the eye of the taxpayer. It is damaging the reputation of Ireland abroad that a person of the calibre of Billy Walsh moves to the US. I have listened with interest to what he has had to say in the past couple of days. My heart goes out to him. He is imbedded in Irish sport and his heart is in it. I am taken by what he said that from

8 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications the age of seven years this was the job he wanted. He has it, he has performed to the highest standard possible and he has been told, “Good luck and thanks for the dance” because a small group of green blazers will not relinquish control.

What legislation does Mr. Mulvey need as part of his armour to put him in a strengthened position where he is not just left with threatening to remove funding at a time when there are so many good athletes? Mr. Mulvey is caught between a rock and a hard place. He has good athletes who are capable of winning and all he can say is that he will hold back the money. Who suffers? It is the athletes and the reputation of the country. What suite of measures needs to be put in place, given that a dysfunctional amateur association is not living up to the standards we all expect? It has the ball and is holding on to it and in the process it is giving all of us the two fingers. It is an appalling situation. It is sad given that there are so many volunteers. In my own county I know the work that is being done by boxing coaches and people who are involved in the sport. They have played such an important role in the lives of teenagers and young people who, in many cases, might have taken another path were it not for the fact that they had the support of volunteers. There is a handful of people at the top who do so much damage to people’s lives.

Who are we talking about? Can Mr. Mulvey name the executive? I am sure it is a matter of public record. I would Mr. Mulvey to tell me who is the chief executive, the chairman and the couple of directors with whom he has had most contact. He does not have to cast any aspersion on them, as I am sure he will not. He is a diplomat in that regard but let us have their names out today.

Chairman: I call Mr. Mulvey.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I thank Deputy Dooley for his endorsement, which I appreciate. I will have a little more time to dedicate to Sport Ireland, which has been an increasingly onerous but enjoyable task as I am due for mandatory retirement next May. Between last night and this morning I have been displaying my own frustration and anger at this debacle. No blame can be laid at the Sports Council or the Minister on this matter. We have bent over backwards with these individuals.

The Deputy asked a number of questions, one of which was if there is anything that can be done in legislation. I believe we have sufficient powers within the current legislative frame- work. It is a matter of political will on our behalf and on the Government’s behalf. It is a matter for the board of the new Sport Ireland. I know from the board of the Irish Sports Council, with which I am still in a limbo situation, that it was very clear on what we should do. I am echoing its sentiments so I am representing its opinion. Our view is that this cannot continue. One cannot have a situation whereby the will or the genuine interest and concern of the council and the Minister, both ad idem, is ignored, and even more than ignored as the Deputy said. They have been given the two fingers.

The IABA for all practical purposes is almost totally funded by the State. It is not my intention and it will never be the intention of the board to hurt the athletes, the boxers, the coaches and the young people participating. All of those can get a guarantee from me this morning they will not be touched. We will ensure they continue to receive our support to the best financial level we can provide. My concern is that portion of the grant that is given to the IABA for central headquarter administration and cost. I am putting the marker down today and I hope I will be supported on this. We will review that for the 2016 funding round until we are assured that everything that is required from transparency and corporate practice is to our satisfaction 9 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate and the satisfaction of this committee. It is no more and no less than is required because things have happened in the past, things are happenings and now we have the culmination of this. It is a long-running row. Senator Eamonn Coghlan would know it from his own membership of the council. It is not today or yesterday this arose and it is not just Billy Walsh. Others have suffered. It is not working properly, it needs to be fixed and it has to be fixed.

The Deputy asked who do we fund. I understand we fund everything, including salaries; coaches where they are professional coaches; expenses; travel; the gyms, that is, the capital; and everything else through the capital-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley: It is good that Mr. Mulvey is giving the committee all that detail. It means that the expenses of the chairperson, the executive committee and the board of directors - the people I referred to as the green blazers - are funded through Sport Ireland.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: We would give an administration fund for the running of the organisation.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: How much money is that?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I do not know but-----

Senator Paschal Mooney: Perhaps Mr. Mulvey will come back with that information.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I will come back within the week and find out precisely how our funding is given and establish from the latest set of accounts how it is spent.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: I thank Mr. Mulvey.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: We pay the chief executive and we pay other administrative staff. I am not happy with the way the chief executive has performed in this matter and I am saying it bluntly here. That will be reviewed as well.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Can Mr. Mulvey name the chief executive and the chairperson?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: Mr. Fergal Carruth. The chairman, Mr. Joe Christle, is not a full-time chairman.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Joe-----

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: Joe Christle.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Is he getting some money as well?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I do not know that.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: At a minimum, is he getting expenses?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I assume he gets some expenses for attendance but I do not know that.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Okay.

Chairman: I thank Deputy Dooley. I call Senator Eamonn Coghlan.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan: I welcome Mr. Mulvey to the committee. From a personal perspective and in my role as a Senator, I thank Mr. Mulvey for his leadership of and dedication

10 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications to the Irish Sports Council since his appointment. Having been on the board of the Irish Sports Council and having chaired the high performance committee I have witnessed at first hand exactly what the Irish Sports Council has delivered.

Subject to the approval I have no doubt will be forthcoming, I wish Mr. Mulvey and the board the best of luck with Sport Ireland. The Irish Sports Council transformed Irish sport following its establishment in 1999, in particular over the last eight years when it has asked all the national governing bodies to step up to the plate. Where it established criteria for them to be professionalised, most of them have met them. I have seen the transformation of the high performance programme in all sports through to participation in sport in Ireland and coach education. Last Saturday week, I was in at the sports campus and I was never so envious in all my life. It is 30 years too late for me. When I saw the new national indoor arena under construction, I said “Wow” and wished it had been there all those years ago. The facilities are a monument to the people of Ireland, not just the high-performance sportspeople. The public will be able to use those facilities. Having all the NGBs located on campus will be brilliant. They will be able to share knowledge and think and act big. They will raise their level of thinking in world terms to a higher bar.

Each week, we celebrate great Irish sporting performances by individuals and teams all around the world. Sometimes, we cry a little bit when we do not make the semi-final of the Rugby World Cup. The saddest story of all this year was the resignation of Billy Walsh over the last number of days. I have known Billy for many years and understand exactly what has been going on for the past seven years. I have two simple questions for Mr. Mulvey, who may reiterate what he has already said. I know it is not about money because looking at what Mr. Mulvey has shown us, he should be getting double the salary. Given that he is not looking for money, what is Billy looking for? What is the IABA so resistant about giving him? What is it that they will not give Billy? The other question relates to the Chairman’s point and the relationship with Sport Northern Ireland. There was some contention with athletes from the Republic of Ireland who felt that while they were getting nice funding from the Irish Sports Council, Olympians and Paralympians in the North of Ireland could get double funding. That was being addressed a few years ago. What is the situation with regard to that double funding and have any decisions been made about it?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I thank the Senator for his kind words. I enjoyed a period of time working with the Senator before his appointment to the Oireachtas. Senator Coghlan asked what Billy Walsh was looking for. I think he was looking for respect and, my God, did he deserve it. The second thing he wanted was reasonable authority to run the high performance programme without petty bureaucratic interference day in and day out. They were the two core issues with him. I gave a flavour of what the IABA was looking for in the new contract. How can one have a situation in Doha where a boxer wins a world medal and he turns to Des Cahill to say, “I cannot be interviewed. I have to get written permission from the chief executive”. There is a lot said. That exposes a mentality to me. From what I know and understand of what was going on, it was constantly to chip back at whatever authority Billy had achieved within the organisation, albeit that authority was not enormous.

There is a feeling I get sometimes from meeting with the IABA that there is a resentment of the high performance unit and the resources that go to it. It is not out of kilter with the balance in other sports. We maintain that balance. Participation is vitally important. It is not about elites but participation. We develop elites out of participation and that is vital. When we get elite talent, we nurture and care for it by providing the facilities. Senator Coghlan had to go

11 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate abroad to do it, but athletes no longer have to do that in a lot of sports. We have to arrange for training abroad, but it is not the first criterion.

In regard to the double funding issue, I am not as familiar with that as I should be. We have discussed the matter with Sport Northern Ireland and there is a further meeting this morning. We have to watch that we are not doubly funding. We have a proper and reasonably generous podium finish for our elite athletes on the basis of performance and that is important. The issue in Sport Northern Ireland is a bit more sensitive because we have Team GB who are predators about certain athletes on our island. Team GB has medalled people at gold, silver and bronze at world, Commonwealth and Olympic games on the basis of dual nationality in Northern Ireland. It is a sensitive issue. We must ensure that those we fund in all-Ireland sports are not disadvantaged vis-à-vis the incentives and opportunities that may be available from across the water. It is highly competitive. Team GB sees the GB as GB, with Northern Ireland as an element of that.

Deputy Dessie Ellis: I thank Mr. Mulvey for his presentation and wish him the best. I respect his honesty. He was passionate about the way he sees this. I was surprised that he was so straightforward in terms of what has happened. It is a great pity that we have Mr. Mulvey here to talk about all the issues around Sport Ireland but have ended up debating the whole Billy Walsh issue. I will touch on it briefly, but it seems that there will be two casualties. It looks as though the IABA is untenable from what Mr. Mulvey says. Its position is untenable into the future one way or another whatever happens with Billy Walsh. It is deeply insulting that anyone would ask a manager or someone in charge not to have an interview. I can imagine what would happen if someone told Joe Schmidt that he could not be interviewed. That is his job and part of the way a manager runs things. We are going to lose a fantastic man whose record is second to none and it is all down to bureaucracy and positions and people wanting to wield a bit of power. I will say no more on that. I am so disappointed with the IABA.

The sports campus is on the edge of my constituency and is an outstanding facility. With all the different sports that are going in there, it will have a huge impact over time. What other sports does Mr. Mulvey consider need to be addressed from a long-term point of view? There are a lot of sports. I am into karate which is one of the things I have been doing all my life. It is not really recognised in the Olympics. There is also the Irish trotting issue. We have horse racing and the conflict with trotting trying to get on the map, notwithstanding that it is big as a sport in other European countries and in the USA. What is Mr. Mulvey’s opinion on some of this? We have not mentioned the Paralympics and our huge successes there. In general terms, we are punching above our weight as a country.

I want to ask about the all-Ireland approach. There is Sport Northern Ireland. The debate many years ago was about an all-Ireland soccer team. We have an all-Ireland rugby team. Is it Mr. Mulvey’s intention to engage in that argument again? We should have an all-Ireland soccer team. It should be back on the table for discussion. It is something Mr. Mulvey might let us know about.

We are trying to push the health message to schools. There are issues of obesity for many pupils. Can Mr. Mulvey give us an idea of how Sport Ireland works regarding the different schools and getting the message out?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I thank Deputy Ellis for his comments. Sometimes, when one sees something happen that should not happen, anger can come out. I watched Mr. Billy Walsh this week. Deputy Dooley has said that here was a man forced into exile because Mr. Walsh did not 12 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications want to go. It is as W.B. Yeats said a century ago:

The beating down of the wise

And great art beaten down

What is in us that we cannot recognise, reward and honour success? We may not be unique in that but my God we do it with a flourish - but that is a personal view. I will now turn to the issue of minority sports, including karate and so on. It is our hope that the dedicated training facilities of the Irish Institute of Sport will be available to all sports. There is an area specifically for boxing which could be utilised by karate and other sports which use the same mats, the same ring and the same training arrangements. It would be useful if the committee could arrange a visit in order to view the facilities.

Deputy Dessie Ellis: I have seen some of the developments. The committee has it on the list of things to do and we will make a visit.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I understand that trotting is very big in France now. There are 500 acres at the National Sports Campus with a lot of new road space and trail space so perhaps some arrangement could be entered into.

Deputy Dessie Ellis: I raised the point because there is a huge conflict between the general sporting industry and the horse racing industry in trying to prevent it getting a grip in the way that it is a big sport in America, Wales and France. It is also very commercial.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: In my written statement I referred to the issue of obesity and health. We are facing an obesity crisis among our young people. Some of the major ways to avoid obesity are exercise, appropriate diet and food intake and engagement in sport. That many of our young people are spending more time in front of a laptop, iPad or computer rather than being outside is an issue that needs to be addressed. It is a health promotion issue, a sport issue and a cross-departmental issue and we are going to have to create more initiatives around that. Sport Ireland is conscious of this and we have held discussions about it from the health promotion perspective. We need to structure it and roll it out on a larger scale in order to inform people about what can be done. At the other end of the spectrum, we need to educate older people about the benefits of exercise for the prevention and treatment of adult diabetes and for heart health through cardio exercises.

I will now turn to the matter of all-island co-operation. Deputy Ellis would be very aware of the sensitivities around this issue. The relationship between Sport Ireland and Sport Northern Ireland is excellent. I have a very good personal relationship with the chairman of the latter and there is good communication between our chief executives and our boards. The important element is that our boards would meet. Our Ministers and ourselves met recently at Slieve Donard for a breakfast meeting about a European network arrangement around which there is much positivity.

Some sports, such as athletics, cricket, hockey and rugby, have an all-island history which precedes the War of Independence and the Special Olympics and the Paralympics are run on an all-island basis. I will be blunt about it - in Northern Ireland the big issue is what school one went to and where one’s political or national loyalties may lie. It is a sensitive matter.

Reference was made to an all-island soccer team. I had thought that it might be feasible but when both teams were in the doldrums it became more difficult. With the tremendous success

13 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate of the Northern Ireland soccer team I cannot see them wanting to euphorically join up with the Republic of Ireland team anytime soon. I hope we will succeed in our match against Bosnia. We once had a united Ireland team when we played against Brazil under Derek Dougan. He was in there in Dalymount on that marvellous, excellent and wonderful day. However, issues and tensions remain around the idea of a united Ireland soccer team. Perhaps an international body such as UEFA - I do not want to mention FIFA yet - could liaise with the representatives about “the home countries” being too big. With the break-up of the Balkans and with new states emerging, that issue has died a death as the governing body wants everybody in, no matter how small they might be. However, the two O’Neills might be able to talk to one another.

Chairman: I thank Mr. Mulvey.

Deputy Helen McEntee: I thank Mr. Mulvey for his presentation. I wish him well in his new position, it will be an exciting role. I agree with Deputy Ellis that it is good of Mr. Mulvey to come before the committee and be so honest with us. Such honesty is needed within sport and across all bodies.

Mr. Mulvey referred to female participation in sport. Women’s Gaelic football is one of the fastest-growing female sports in Ireland. However, there is a disconnect between the two organisations - the Ladies Gaelic Football Association and the GAA - involved in its administration. People may not realise there are two associations and I will give an example. A new state- of-the-art centre of excellence opened in Meath last month. It has fantastic football grounds, sporting facilities and a dedicated sports building. There was a big event with minor sports and junior sporting activities happening all day. However, I left half way through the event because 15 km away in Navan, the intermediate junior and senior ladies Gaelic football finals were taking place. One would imagine that steps would have been taken to ensure those two events did not take place on the same day. There seems to be a breakdown and I do not know if one could place blame with one organisation. Does Mr. Mulvey feel that something could be done in that kind of situation? Mr. Mulvey referred to the hundreds of millions of euro invested in sporting facilities and the GAA would be one of the beneficiaries of that investment. I understand that women may pay higher rates of insurance per player to play on the pitches so I would appreciate comment from Mr. Mulvey on that.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I thank Deputy McEntee for her comments. I always approach GAA matters with a certain tiptoe attitude since the Chairman would be very familiar with the GAA. There is the Ladies Gaelic Football Association, LGFA, then there is the Camogie Association and the GAA, which seem to operate effectively within one organisation. I believe the GAA would like a merged organisation. From a funding point of view, we would like a merged GAA as we would prefer to fund a single body. That body would then decide what needs to be done. Senator Eamonn Coghlan would be aware of that as a policy and that the Sports Council prefers one fund for one body.

I understand that the LGFA fears it could potentially become absorbed in the merged organisation and lose its unique voice. In Helen O’Rourke, it has an excellent representative who bends my ear whenever she meets me about the importance of ladies’ Gaelic football retaining its identity. We have discussed the one funding principle and the synergies with Paraic Duffy and with the president of the GAA and it will arise again in the next funding round. Sport Ireland will not force the position because it is a matter for discussion and a sensitive area. I am sure the LGFA would be of the view that it might not be to its advantage to be deprived of separate funding. We must listen to its view.

14 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications We must also address the formation of the Women’s Gaelic Players Association, WGPA. They will be seeking similar pro rata funding arrangements as their colleagues in the GPA, whom we fund to the tune of almost €1 million a year. I assure the Deputy that it will be a live issue in the coming months. It is an issue that is not going to and should not go away. It must be addressed. This issue has also arisen for the IRFU with regard to the funding of the international women’s rugby team for potential Olympic participation. It arises for the FAI and other sports as well. We have been trying to develop the Women in Sport programme in addition to the other funding. I need to tread very carefully in this area. If we are to achieve satisfaction for all groups, it will require some delicate footwork - if I can use that phrase - in light of the legitimate interests of both sides.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: I welcome Mr. Mulvey. Although I do not know him, I must say I was impressed by his straightforward and honest contribution to a television programme he appeared on last night. It seemed to come from the heart, which is not something we encounter in bucketfuls around this place. It was good and refreshing to see someone so impressive whose heart is in the right place.

We all know we have a problem. How do we solve that problem? The next phase needs a leader or someone to solve the problem. Is there some way that the Irish Sports Council or another body could take over the high-performance team in order to ensure that the boxers who represent our country are given every facility and every opportunity to compete with the best in the world? Has Mr. Mulvey or anyone associated with him contacted Billy Walsh? Is all of this being done through the media? Is it a case of “I said, you said”? Has anyone made contact to ask whether the clock can be stopped so that those involved can sit down to solve this problem? If the issue at stake is not money, I think the problem can be solved. From what I understand, it is not about money. That is what I believe on the basis of what I have heard everyone saying. We are where we are. We need to resolve the problem.

Chairman: Perhaps I should bring Deputy Fitzmaurice up to date. Mr. Mulvey has told the committee that he and his colleagues met Billy Walsh directly at various stages in recent months.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: Yes. Can something be done regarding the high-performance team? Perhaps some other body could take it over. Can Mr. Mulvey intervene now, even at this late stage, by putting his neck on the line to ensure this is pulled out of the fire? I ask him to intervene with our boxers, Billy Walsh and whomever else in order to ensure that common sense prevails so that we can go forward to the next Olympics in the best possible position.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice. I think we might share the same prov- ince and the same hinterland as the Chairman of the committee. I thought I put it as plainly as I could last night. I also put it in such terms previously when I spoke directly to the IABA about its engagements with Mr. Walsh and my negotiations with him. The Deputy has asked a direct question. My view on this matter can largely be summarised by repeating that last night I asked the IABA to contact Billy Walsh to give him the contract and the terms we agreed. The Deputy is quite right. That is what the IABA, as the employer, should do. I am not the employer. I am responsible for the funding provided by the taxpayer through the Oireachtas. If the IABA cannot understand what I said last night, we have a real problem. I think I said it as plainly as I could, as people from our part of the country sometimes do. The IABA did not hear anything last night that I had not previously said to it across the table. It allowed this matter to drift. It said it was in negotiations. Then the solicitors on both sides got involved. I know that anyone who has dealt with the IABA in these negotiations, including human resources consultants and 15 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate legal personnel, have found it to be the most frustrating experience they have ever had. That mirrors my own experience.

The IABA needs to decide whether it wants Billy Walsh. It appears that it does not, given that it has brought the matter to this level. It has allowed this poker game to go to the ultimate point that has been reached by Billy Walsh out of sheer frustration. The president of the IABA told the Minister of State with responsibility for sport last weekend that this matter would be resolved - that everything was all right and that it would be done. We found on Monday morning that it was not done. As I said last night, it is not about the financials because they have all been thrashed out and paid for by the Irish Sports Council on behalf of the taxpayer. Deputy Fitzmaurice is quite right in that regard. It is about all the other indignities that have added to this problem. There were problems in the United Kingdom with regard to high performance. The UK authorities took boxing out of the high-performance system and put it into a dedicated centre in Sheffield. We have a dedicated centre for high-performance boxing in the new institute. That is going to be on the agenda.

Senator Paschal Mooney: Perhaps I could come in at this point because I am due to speak in the Seanad.

Chairman: I have to follow the order. I will call Deputy Harrington, followed by-----

Senator Paschal Mooney: I indicated immediately.

Chairman: The committee has agreed an order since the beginning of the year and I follow that order to the letter. I call Deputy Harrington.

Senator Paschal Mooney: Three Government representatives will have spoken.

Chairman: The order is Fianna Fáil, followed by the Government. That was agreed here by Opposition and Government members of the committee.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: We had Sinn Féin as well.

Chairman: I call Deputy Harrington.

Deputy Noel Harrington: I welcome Mr. Mulvey’s presentation.

Chairman: I ask the Deputy to be brief so that everyone can get in.

Deputy Noel Harrington: I will. I cannot think of anyone more suited to this role than Mr. Mulvey. I fully support his stewardship of Sport Ireland. I would like to ask a question about that body. It is possible that the 2023 Rugby World Cup will potentially be held in Ireland. Is Sport Ireland going to be involved in that process?

The issue of governance is a core one for an Oireachtas committee because public money is being channelled through the Irish Sports Council to the IABA. That is a fundamental issue for this committee. Mr. Mulvey has gone through it. When one looks at the members of the board of the IABA, one thinks on the face of it that they look like people of calibre. The board includes legal representatives, business people, solicitors, managers, building contractors and people involved in boxing and other sports. They should know from their own experiences about their governance responsibilities with respect to public funds and all the rest of it. Does Mr. Mulvey think it would be appropriate at this time to have representatives of Sports Ireland or the Irish Sports Council, or people nominated by them, sitting on the boards of the national

16 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications governing bodies to oversee how public money is being spent through the governing bodies and to report back directly to Sports Ireland, the Irish Sports Council or the Oireachtas? It seems that this is not just an IABA issue - it could well be an issue in respect of all the national governing bodies. When a dispute like this happens, there seems to be a real disconnect when it comes to accountability for public money. In this case, the Minister for sport has got involved and has clearly been left deeply frustrated. Similar examples can be seen globally. Mr. Mulvey has touched on what has happened in the high-performance units in Britain. We are aware of what has happened in FIFA. Do we have any idea of what the IABA’s sponsors think about all of this? If I was sponsoring the IABA, or if someone I knew was sponsoring it, I would not be best pleased about the controversy that has blown up in front of that organisation. I ask Mr. Mulvey to comment purely on the governance issue. Does he have views on how this difficulty could be dealt with in that respect?

Chairman: I will take the other questioners at this time as well. I call Senator Mooney.

Senator Paschal Mooney: It is always a pleasure to listen to Mr. Mulvey. When I made my initial remarks about the 15-page presentation, I should have realised that, unsurprisingly, he was able to parse it effectively and well. I have read it all, by the way. It is an excellent document. It is a blueprint for going forward.

I do not wish to further exhaust the well on the issue of the IABA. However, Mr. Mulvey has made his position perfectly clear. The committee agreed to my earlier proposal that it would invite both the Irish Sports Council and the IABA to come before it. I am not so sure there is necessity for representatives from the Irish Sports Council to appear. However, it is still relevant to have the IABA in because I believe it should be called to account, especially in light of the fact that its total funding comes from the taxpayer. It is accountable - whether it likes it or not - to this Oireachtas, to the Minister, by extension, and to the taxpayer. Mr. Mulvey has made his position clear. I agree with the views he has expressed at this meeting as well as his other recent comments on the high-performance unit and the matter of how he will deal with that in its relationship with the IABA. He is going to have to play hardball on this. Obviously, he is dealing with Neanderthals, dinosaurs, people who are not living in the real world in terms of sport.

We are all delighted with the Northern Ireland soccer team’s success in the European football championships. Any sports-loving person will be cheering on Northern Ireland next sum- mer, as well as the Republic, hopefully. I would not like Mr. Mulvey to take his eye off the ball with the ongoing dialogue, albeit beneath the surface, in respect of an all-island team, however. I have been involved in this, no more than others, through my membership of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly going back 15 years. Any time I raised this issue on Northern Ireland radio or television, one would believe I was being accused of treason. There is this sensitivity, as if one were proposing a takeover. The Irish rugby team plays in the green jersey and it is an all-island team. Why should the soccer team not play as one?

I know Mr. Mulvey has exhausted this but I still believe the single most significant move- ment that can be made towards unifying the peoples of the two parts of this island would be if we had an all-island soccer team. The worst reflection of sectarianism is in the sport of soccer. One need only look at the media reaction to Northern Ireland winning when they went into the two divided communities. The different reactions in the two communities were as if they were living in two different worlds. Catholics just do not support the Northern Ireland soccer team because it plays its home games in a cold place. Windsor Park is a cold place for Catholics and Nationalists. That is sad. I know the Northern Ireland soccer federation is doing its best to try 17 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate to eliminate that. I hope, however, that this matter will be kept on the agenda by Mr. Mulvey. There never is a good time. The fact the Northern Ireland team qualified on this occasion - hopefully, we will too - is because of the expansion of the European championships to promote smaller countries. It might not happen with the World Cup, however, and it might be a long time before either part of this island qualifies for another international competition.

What is Mr. Mulvey’s view on minority sports? There are 67 different governing sports bodies. One need only think of the success we have had in sports which have received limited funding, relative to the big ones such as GAA, rugby and boxing. There was the excitement created by Annalise Murphy when we were all hoping she would win an Olympic gold medal in sailing in 2012. I know we are an island nation but sailing is not a sport that springs to mind. There is the success of the cricketing team and we came fourth in kayaking at the Olympics. Some years ago, Team GB decided it was going to invest more money in minority sports because it felt, even for a nation much larger than us, there were greater chances of success internationally by promoting some of those sports. Does Mr. Mulvey share that same view? Do we tend to look at the marquee sports when we might have more of an opportunity of winning medals internationally in minority sports? Will he identify those particular sports, encourage them and fund them more?

I have no difficulty with Northern Ireland athletes being double-funded. Mr. Mulvey is correct that it is a hugely competitive area and they are poaching our people. There are people from Northern Ireland who have gone with Team GB and won medals. If a double-funding mechanism is in place because of the unique nature of this island’s make-up, then why not? Good luck to them because sportspeople need as many financial resources as they can get. I know it is a disadvantage from a Southern perspective but, in the overall context, I do not see any difficulty.

I am delighted Mr. Mulvey has been appointed to this particular role, as there could not be a better person for it. I wish him continued success and look forward to further engagement with him.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: I welcome Mr. Mulvey. I first came across his name when I was studying the business course for the leaving certificate in the previous century. I acknowledge his vast experience and I am sure he will do a fantastic job in this role.

I give my full support to his approach to the IABA. He needs to use everything in his power, even at this late stage, to retain the services of Mr. Billy Walsh. His record is outstanding and he is a world leader in the discipline. I support Mr. Mulvey’s effort to use every bargaining chip he possesses.

What is Mr. Mulvey’s vision for increased participation in sports for people with disabilities? How best can we use existing facilities and human resources networks, for example, organisations such as the GAA, the strongest of all our sporting organisations, to encourage more people with disabilities to participate in sport? Can we build on the work done by Special Olympics Ireland and other such organisations?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: To me, the issue of governance is paramount. If one does not have governance, the role I am obliged to perform for this committee and the Oireachtas falls. Most problems start with governance. If governance is not proper and right, it infects an organisation all the way down. I am very conscious that it is hard-earned taxpayers’ money at stake here. We always have to strike a delicate line between oversight and interference. This is one of the

18 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications issues around which the Irish Sports Council in the past may have had some difficulties. When we see the system of appointment of chief executives, high-performance directors or other staff not done in an appropriate and transparent fashion, it is very hard for us to get involved in the employment relationship, even though we may be funding the outcome. It is a delicate balance.

Do we put people on the boards of the national governing bodies? That has not really arisen. Up to 95% of the national governing bodies operate effectively and have very good boards and chief executives. They have made monumental changes in the past five years. We put on courses on governance, its requirements, codes of practice, as well as financial and reporting accountability. We need to retain that balance. It is only when we encounter an issue such as that which we addressed this morning that it is highlighted. I do not want to put that in the context against the 95% of organisations with which we do not have a problem.

We also audit organisations each year. We will select several organisations for audit. They do not know it. We tell them they will be audited in a particular year, in three-year cycles. That is how we get through all the national governing bodies of sport, NGBs, and it is done by our independent auditors, who we procure by public advertisement for that purpose. It is a separate reporting mechanism. I take the point that sometimes it would be good to have a presence on the board, but we might then run into issues of autonomy, interference and so on. It is a question of achieving balance and it is problems like these that bring the issue to the fore.

On the question of the national soccer team, the phrase “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread” comes to mind. I lived in Northern Ireland for a while and saw the situation there at first hand. One must always keep in mind that one person’s sport is another person’s antipathy. Whereas we have had major achievements in terms of co-operation in rugby, hockey, cricket and other sports-----

Senator Paschal Mooney: Practically every sport with the exception of soccer is done on all-island basis.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: Yes, and that exception is down to raw emotion. I have been in Wind- sor Park on good nights and on bad nights. The atmosphere can be challenging at times, let me put it that way. This is an issue I assume the Football Association of Ireland, FAI, and the Irish Football Association, IFA, are working on themselves. Together with our colleagues in the North, we act as facilitators and are happy to assist in any engagements that take place. It is an important aspect of what we do.

Senator Mooney also had a question to do with minority sports, which is an issue we do keep on our radar. We apportion funding sometimes on the basis of participation, sometimes on the basis of competition, sometimes in respect of facilities and sometimes around performance. There is no doubt that in recent years, new athletes in new sports have come to prominence. The build-up of cycling, for example, has been enormous; hence the need for the velodrome. The Senator is correct that Team GB has targeted the two sports of cycling and rowing in particular, and one can see the haul it has taken out of them. It used to be just Oxford and Cambridge in the boat race, but now there is so much more going on. We were a great rowing nation in the past. We all remember the achievements of Seán Drea and others.

Senator Paschal Mooney: We had Frances Cryan in Carrick-on-Shannon.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: Yes. Rowing is coming back to prominence because of the facility that has been created in Cork.

19 Sport Ireland: Chairperson Designate In regard to judo, our problem at the moment is that Lisa Kearney has suffered an injury that will put her out of the Olympics. She was our great hope, having won medals in European and other competitions. Sometimes it is the case that one is relying on one athlete in a particular sport. Arthur Lanigan-O’Keeffe is someone who is coming through almost out of the fog. We are doing our best to bring athletes on within the different sports by funding them and their high-performance directors. We have a broad church and we take a broad church view.

Senator Paschal Mooney: In the context of facilitation, is it the case that the high-performance directors identify the athletes and bring them to the attention of the Irish Sports Council or does the council initiate that type of engagement?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: We initiate it to some degree. We meet with representatives of each of the NGBs every year and look at their targets, performance, emerging talent efforts and so on. We have that engagement going on all the time. Largely, however, we need the NGBs to come to us and tell us what they are doing. We can then give them assistance to put a plan together and we will examine that plan.

In the context of disabilities, as referred to by Deputy Griffin, I am very conscious of the work of Special Olympics Ireland. Indeed, I was very involved in that even before I was on the Irish Sports Council. We gave Special Olympics Ireland a special grant this year of €0.25 million, in excess of its existing grant funding, to ensure we could have a tremendous presence in Los Angeles. That was on top of the normal allocation. To clarify, we provide Special Olym- pics Ireland with special funding for the annual games and, in addition, special funding for the international games. One cannot put a price on what has been achieved by that body.

Paralympics Ireland is our most successful sporting body in that we fund more podium finishes in paralympics that we do in athletics. In fact, the Irish paralympics team has podium finished at Olympic and World Games beyond our expectations. We take an all-inclusive approach with that body and work closely with it.

I take the Deputy’s point about the big field sports and the need for inclusivity in terms of access to facilities and so on. It is an issue I will take on board. I have not directly approached the NGBs about it but organisations like the Irish Rugby Football Association, FAI and Gaelic Athletic Association certainly are very conscious of it. One of the ways to facilitate that type of inclusivity is by requiring all capital facilities to have full disability access.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: There is a great opportunity in that we have these fantastic organisations which are doing brilliant work in nearly every community in the country. In the case of the GAA, certainly, work is going on in every community, and the other organisations are active in most towns and villages. There is an open goal to be scored in terms of availing of the great infrastructure that is already in place to do more.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: It was awe-inspiring recently to watch able-bodied athletes sit in wheelchairs alongside disabled athletes and play football, basketball and so on. That type of engagement leads to greater integration, as do the great achievements of people like Mark Ro- han.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: Mr. Mulvey might try to bring the organisations together to hammer out something for the future?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: Is the Deputy suggesting a national strategy?

20 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications Deputy Brendan Griffin: Yes, that would be fantastic.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I certainly will take that suggestion on board.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: I thank Mr. Mulvey.

Chairman: Everybody has had an opportunity now to put questions to the witness. I thank Mr. Mulvey for joining us today for what has been a very worthwhile engagement. I appreciate that he did not sit on any fences this morning; it is refreshing to have a witness be so direct and to the point. We will forward a transcript of the proceedings to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport for his information and consideration. We can take it that Mr. Mulvey’s appointment will be confirmed and, as such, we wish him well in his role. We thank him for all the work he has already done and the leadership he has shown. He referred to the possibility of his retiring in some capacities next year. He might be interested to know there is legislation going through the Dáil which will permit people to stay in public roles for longer.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: We would appreciate something like that ourselves.

Chairman: I wish Mr. Mulvey the best of luck for the future.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey: I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to engage with them and for the courtesies they have shown me in the past. I do not take the committee’s endorsement lightly. Indeed, I am humbled by and appreciative of it. In accepting this or any similar post, I am accepting the honour and privilege of serving the State and the people of Ireland.

Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Mulvey. We will suspend for a few minutes before bringing in the next group of witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 11.40 a.m. and resumed at 11.45 a.m.

Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion

Chairman: The next item on the agenda is a meeting with representatives of Volkswagen Group Ireland and The Society of the Irish Motor Industry, SIMI. The purpose of this meeting is to engage with Volkswagen Group Ireland in respect of the discovery in the US of software being used by Volkswagen which gave rise to incorrect emissions readings, the likely implications for Irish motorists and what the company is doing to remedy the situation. SIMI is also in attendance to provide its views on the matter and the implications for the wider Irish motoring public. On behalf of the committee, I welcome from Volkswagen Group Ireland Mr. Lars Him- mer, managing director, Mr. Patrick Comyn and Mr. Paul Burke. I also welcome from SIMI Mr. Alan Nolan, director general, Mr. Brian Cooke and Mr. Tom Cullen.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defa- mation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against

21 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise witnesses that submissions or opening statements they have submitted to the committee will published on the committee’s website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Himmer to give his opening statement.

Mr. Lars Himmer: I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to engage with it for what I know-----

Chairman: The PowerPoint presentation is not up-----

Mr. Lars Himmer: We are not using PowerPoint. I have speaking notes, which have been circulated to the committee. I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to engage with it for what I know is an important issue for it and the public. I am the managing director of Volkswagen Group Ireland. I am originally from Denmark and joined Volkswagen Group two years ago, having previously worked in a variety of other industries, including commercial vehicles. I took up my current role in Ireland in January 2015.

Volkswagen Group Ireland is the Irish importer and distributor of Audi, Seat, Skoda and Volkswagen passenger cars and commercial vehicles. We directly employ more than 140 direct staff in Ireland and our cars and vans are sold and serviced through a network of 155 dealerships and-or workshops in 75 locations around the country. These employ approximately 2,500 dedicated staff.

In my capacity as head of the business in Ireland, I would like to express my sincere apolo- gies that our group has let down our customers, our dealers, our staff and the wider public in Ireland. The findings of irregularities in some diesel vehicles manufactured by Volkswagen Group are unacceptable, all the more so given our long history and the trust placed in us by successive generations of car owners here and internationally. These are matters that the board of management of Volkswagen AG and here in Ireland take very seriously. We recognise that we have fallen short of the standards expected of us and the standards that we expect of ourselves.

As a group, we accept that we mishandled these tests and we will fix this at our expense and in a way that minimises any disruption to our customers or other stakeholders. Beyond that, we recognise that we need to learn lessons from what has happened and to co-operate with regula- tors and policy-makers in this regard.

Also as a group, we are undergoing organisational structural change with a new CEO and have started a strategic product redirection - for example, a reorientation of our diesel strategy using only selective catalytic reduction with AdBlue and pushing our electric vehicle architec- ture.

Like most of the committee members, I first learned about emissions irregularities in the US on 19 September, and potentially in Europe on 22 September, with clarification in the following days. I will now turn to the specific issues as they relate to Ireland. On 1 October, I announced preliminary data about the local impact and about Volkswagen Ireland’s response. This was that up to 80,000 vehicles sold by our company may be affected, that a further circa 30,000 imported vehicles may also be affected and that Volkswagen Group Ireland will take responsi-

22 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications bility for these also. As previously indicated, the emissions issues relate to vehicles registered between 2008 and 2015 and containing a type EA 189 engine. Clarification of affected vehicles has been ongoing and the number today is 115,917.

I have also previously confirmed that the affected cars are technically safe and roadworthy and that there is no impact on handling and-or consumption. In terms of addressing the problem and engaging with our customers, I can confirm that all owners of affected vehicles are being contacted directly regarding the process to get their vehicles remedied in the near future. In- dividual letters to all owners have been sent this week. We have also set up a national website where Volkswagen customers can check if their vehicle is affected. For ease of use, we have correlated the vehicle identification numbers that we normally use as a car company with the vehicle registration numbers that the public is more familiar with. What that means is that drivers can check if their vehicle is affected by simply entering their car registration on our website www.campaigncheck.ie. This website has been very well received and has received more than 100,000 searches in its first week in operation, identifying more than 15,000 affected vehicles. In the second week, we identified more than 25,000 vehicles via the website.

On 7 October, Volkswagen AG presented its plan and technical solution to the German Federal Motor Transport Authority, KBA, for approval. Its decision was issued to Volkswagen on 15 October and includes, in particular, the following measures. An ordered recall is taking place. A timetable and plan of action submitted to the KBA is being implemented. Today, Volk- swagen AG must present the technical solution for fixing the 2.0 litre engine to the authorities. On 15 November, Volkswagen AG will the present technical solution for fixing to the 1.6 litre engine to the authorities and by the end of November, it will present the technical solution for fixing the 1.2 litre engine to the authorities. It is important to state that vehicles can continue to be used on the roads without limitation and that the current EA 288, EU6, successor engine generation is not affected by the recall.

On 24 October, Volkswagen Group Ireland initiated a voluntary suspension of sales of unregistered cars and vans with the affected EA 189 engine. We are also assessing a wide range of options to ensure ease of implementation for our customers. These include accommodating times and venues that best suit our customers and ease of process for dealers to cope with the massive capacity needed. All our customers with these vehicles will be kept informed over the coming weeks and months. We want to do everything in our power to correct these vehicles and to begin the process of regaining trust. This company has built an excellent reputation in Ireland over more than 65 years. Recent events have caused concern in the public’s mind and we are now doing everything we can to rebuild trust with our customers, partners and the general public.

The remediation process should have no impact on CO2 emissions in the future, as some have speculated, and we will provide technical proofs to corroborate this assurance in the period ahead. We take full responsibility for our actions and we are working with all relevant authorities in a co-operative way. I offer the commitment of Volkswagen Group Ireland to work with this committee to understand what happened and how we can move forward. We have not had the opportunity to review all aspects of this matter as the investigations are just beginning. My testimony, therefore, and my answers to questions will, by necessity, have to be considered preliminary and based on my best understanding at this time. Members can rest assured that I and my dedicated team here in Ireland will not stop until this issue is fully resolved.

Mr. Alan Nolan: Táimid an-bhuíoch don choiste don seans labhairt anseo thar cionn SIMI. The Society of the Irish Motor Industry, SIMI, is the national representative organisation for the 23 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion motor industry in Ireland. The organisation has more than 1,100 members, covering all sectors of the motor industry including vehicle and parts importing, sales, repairs and servicing as well as other specialist support businesses from finance to IT providers.

The recovery over recent years has seen employment in the sector increase by almost 10,000 jobs to a current level of 45,000. The improvement in business this year will see the VRT and VAT collected for the Exchequer from car sales exceed €1 billion for the first time since before the recession. On the issue at the centre of today’s invitation, we are acutely aware of the seri- ousness of the situation for our sector. However, we cannot answer on behalf of the individual member concerned or comment on specific issues in so much as they relate only to a specific individual member company. It is clearly more appropriate that any such questions are addressed to our colleagues from Volkswagen Group Ireland, VWGI. We are happy to deal with the more general issues and principles from an industry viewpoint. In this regard there is no evidence that there is a similar NOx issue in relation to any other companies. We do not manufacture any vehicles in Ireland so we are not directly involved in the type approval of new vehicles at the manufacturing stage or in emissions testing under the EU direc- tive. These are, however, key issues for us in Ireland as we have such a strong environmental focus as a country. The motor industry in Ireland has been very strongly supportive of the environmental agenda and we are aware that the future for private car transport needs to be as sustainable as possible. In Europe, the focus in relation to emissions has been principally on

CO2 as fears over climate change and Kyoto targets focused on the need to reduce CO2 from road transport. Our vehicle registration tax, VRT, and road tax rates are also based on the CO2 emissions figures rather than the NOx emissions which are at issue here.

The issues raised here and the focus on how CO2 and NOx emissions are tested in Europe have strongly centred the debate on the difference between the type approval laboratory tests and actual results in real world driving as experienced by consumers. The EU and the motor industry at European level have been working for some years to change over to real driving emissions, RDE, testing and the current debate will speed up delivery of that project as it is now a matter of urgency. This is targeted to begin in September 2017 and these RDE tests will pro- duce figures that will be far closer to what consumers experience when they drive on the roads. This is a phased project which will implement further stronger emissions targets over a number of years after that. It is likely that the final detail on these new requirements will be confirmed by the EU before the end of the year. Consumers will see huge improvements in the real world accuracy of emissions and fuel consumption data over the next couple of years.

Chairman: I thank Mr. Nolan for his presentation and for keeping us updated on what his organisation is doing. All of us have been approached in the past couple of weeks about the initial confusion before Volkswagen came out with its statements. I received an e-mail from a company which has a fleet of vehicles and it was wondering what arrangements for compensation there were, on account of the fact that it had to take the vehicles off the road and the vehicles suffered a reduction in resale value. It had gone for an environmental ISO to comply with the quality required for transport but this has thrown all that into chaos. They are saying that this fleet of vehicles has damaged the company’s credibility. Will this loss of value be made up to the company? Will there be reductions on new vehicles if they have to be replaced?

Mr. Nolan said there was no evidence that other companies are affected by this. Have other companies said clearly that there is no issue or is it just that there is no evidence for it at the moment?

24 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications Mr. Alan Nolan: They have said there is not an issue.

Chairman: So it is just confined to Volkswagen.

Mr. Lars Himmer: It is extremely important for us to restore trust and that certainly ap- plies to the customer mentioned by the Chairman. It is a very new issue and we are focused on finding a technical solution to bring the cars into the condition that is needed. We expect the technical solution to apply to 50% of engines. In 52% of the engines in Ireland software is the issue while in the other 48% the issue is potentially both software and some hardware. The operations should take approximately an hour for software, with extra time for the hardware later on. Time off the road should be absolutely minimal. Many customers will come in to service their cars anyway and it will be natural to carry out the update of the engine at that time. We will make certain that we can accommodate customers and we will be in contact with fleet owners with a view to doing this on their premises. We will be very flexible and will ensure there is minimal inconvenience as soon as we have the solution. The solution should not have an impact on CO2 and should not impact mpg or the performance of the car. There should, therefore, be no difference in residual value. It is very early days and we are tracking residual values. We will take full responsibility but we need to base our approach on facts and to make sure that we fix these cars. That is our priority at the moment.

Chairman: If there is a loss of earnings for particular companies with a full fleet will that be dealt with on a one-off basis?

Mr. Lars Himmer: I cannot say, but we will take full responsibility. Customers and companies are very well protected in Ireland. We have been in Ireland for 65 years and have a proud history here. We have a very professional dealer network with which we work very closely and we will do everything we can to cause as little inconvenience as possible to customers and to bring back the confidence that our cars are fundamentally good. We need to get them on the road so that they can live up to their reputation. I can say no more than that we will take full responsibility.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: How does Volkswagen intend to compensate the injured party?

Mr. Lars Himmer: I am sorry, I do not understand.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: I will repeat the question. How does Volkswagen intend to compensate the injured party?

Mr. Lars Himmer: We will live up to our responsibilities, so that will be a legal question.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Has Volkswagen identified who the injured party is in this instance?

Mr. Lars Himmer: No. I am not a lawyer so I do not fully understand the question.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Mr. Himmer is the chief executive of Volkswagen Ireland. Who does Mr. Himmer think has been injured in this particular debacle?

Mr. Lars Himmer: I think trust has been broken. We have an issue with the cars and with software that should not have been there. That will be recoded and the cars will be brought back into the condition in which they need to be.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: So Mr. Himmer is saying that the car is the injured party. On

25 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion behalf of Volkswagen, who does Mr. Himmer believe is the injured party in this particular debacle?

Mr. Lars Himmer: We will have to see what actually comes out of the case before we identify the injured party.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: That does not make any sense. Who is the injured party from Mr. Himmer’s point of view? When he gets up in the morning, whom does he seek to address in terms of the damage that has been done? Who is his target? Is it the car and just fixing the car? Who is the injured party?

Mr. Lars Himmer: The target is to fix the car and to restore the trust of the customers. There are a lot of investigations going on.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: That is about restoring the trust for Volkswagen, but Volkswagen is not the injured party from my perspective. I will ask Mr. Himmer the question again. Who does he think is the injured party and how does he intend to address that?

Mr. Lars Himmer: At the moment, we are focused on finding a solution to the problem and restating that we will live up to our full responsibility.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: We will go back into it. What is the problem? What does Mr. Himmer think the problem is?

Mr. Lars Himmer: The problem is that we have a fault in the car. There was software coding on the test bench that should not have been there. That is being investigated. It is important for us to find out why and how that happened. We are as interested as anyone else in finding that out and in making certain it does not happen again. That is part of the investigation, both the external investigation and also an investigation that we have initiated with external lawyers to make certain that no stone is left unturned in finding out how this has happened. It is important in restoring trust.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: With respect, from my perspective, that is a wasted exercise. It should be as plain as day what happened and why it happened. Volkswagen had an engine that did not meet the standards and somebody within the organisation decided to manipulate test results through the electronic components. That has been established. How Volkswagen man- ages its business behind the scenes in terms of the reputational damage that has been done to Volkswagen is an issue for Volkswagen. Get on with it. Do not expect a clap on the back for initiating all that investigation to improve the shareholder value.

There are a number of injured parties here. First, there are the people who went out and spent their money on a Volkswagen car, who believed in the brand and are now at a significant loss. The resale value of the cars is questionable. Another injured party is the environment, which affects all of us, whether we are Volkswagen owners, Audi owners, or owners of any other car. We have all been affected by Volkswagen’s wilful neglect of standards, which has an impact on the environment. Let us get real here. Those are the injured parties. This is not personal, but on behalf of his organisation, Mr. Himmer should start to figure out how Volkswagen will resolve that issue, as opposed to how it will regain the trust of consumers so that they will continue to buy its brand and continue to look after the people who work in Volkswagen. That is not where Mr. Himmer should start from.

There is a further point. Mr. Himmer said in the course of his comments that he discovered,

26 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications as the rest of us did, on 19 September 2015 that there was an issue with US emissions. He went on to say that on 22 September 2015 it became clear that there were issues in Europe, yet he did not suspend sales of the vehicle until 14 October 2015. There is another injured party. Those cars were not taken out of circulation. Mr. Himmer should have contacted those who bought vehicles between the date he became aware of the problem and the date on which he suspended sales to offer them their money back and let them decide what they wanted to do.

Mr. Himmer will not answer the question, but I will ask it again. Has any thought been put into how Volkswagen intends to address the very significant damage that has been done to the stakeholders, namely, the affected owners and the State, on behalf of its citizens, because of the impact on the environment? I get the impression that no thought has been put into it. It is easy for Volkswagen to say it is sorry and that it regrets what has happened. That is all good, but it is PR spin. It is straight from a PR textbook - when one is caught, one should put one’s hands up and try to mitigate the damage rather than truthfully addressing the core of the problem. I do not get the impression from anything I have heard from Mr. Himmer or his counterparts in the United States and the UK that, as a corporate body, Volkswagen has any interest in addressing the core of this issue. It is a “cover thy butt” exercise that is going on. I do not think it is acceptable. It is a wasted exercise to have the witnesses come in.

Has Mr. Nolan sought any kind of guarantee or binding statement from suppliers or other manufacturers? Has he received documentation to say that they have carried out a full review of all their procedures and processes to ensure that nothing like this is happening with any other make of car?

Chairman: We will do it in order. I will come back to Mr. Himmer, if he wants to reply, and then we will go to Mr. Nolan.

Mr. Lars Himmer: I can assure the Deputy that we take all injured parties very seriously, but it is very early days. We have already made financial allocations to pay compensation. That was done in the early days in September after we became aware of it. We are looking at the impact of it, which is very important to establish injury. That will also depend on our getting the car back to where it needs to be. Again, we will work intensively on the test bench to get the car into the condition that it needs to be in. We will not shy away from responsibility. We have been in Ireland for 65 years. We have no intention of running away from our responsibilities. I hope we will be here for at least another 65 years. We will co-operate, we are co-operating and we will get to the bottom of it.

Chairman: Will Volkswagen compensate owners for loss of income on the loss of value of the car?

Mr. Lars Himmer: We will address this when we see that there has been an impact. I cannot guarantee that we can compensate everything in every direction, but we will live up to our responsibility. We are not running away. I and my team will work very hard to fix this. We will not run away while we do that. Our investigations are ongoing and when we learn more about what and how it happened I am certain that we will have these discussions again. I reassure the committee that we will live up to our responsibilities.

Some markets suspended sales of vehicles on 13 September 2015 and in the days after- wards. Many markets did not, and some are still selling. We looked at it carefully every day. The cars are still technically safe and roadworthy. Type approval is in place on the condition that we fix these cars. It is important to say that we still have type approval but we have to fix

27 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion the cars. We suspended sales on 14 September. To put it into perspective, in Ireland, four cars and 12 vans were delivered unregistered between 1 October and 14 October 2015.

Mr. Alan Nolan: Not only did we receive confirmation from our distribution companies in Ireland, but we actually travelled to Brussels to meet with ACEA, which is the European association of vehicle manufacturers. It has a huge amount of research capability and it is currently engaged in dealing with this issue on behalf of all European-based manufacturers with the Eu- ropean Commission. It is also dealing with the next round of negotiations on emissions testing. It has confirmed to us that all the manufacturers have confirmed that they have no issues.

Deputy Seán Kenny: I thank Mr. Himmer from Volkswagen and those from SIMI for coming before the committee. Mr. Himmer told Deputy Dooley that this was a software coding problem. It seems to me that it was not a mistake, and that it was deliberately rigged in such a way as to give the impression that the emission regulations were being met when they actually were not. That is how it appears to me. Was this software developed in-house by Volkswagen or by a software company outside Volkswagen, which may have supplied other car manufacturers with the same kind of system? Could this problem affect other car manufacturers in Europe or worldwide? It seems to me that it borders on something criminal. If somebody deliberately rigs a system to get around a safety and emissions system, it appears criminal. We need to know who was responsible for the software coding. It obviously comes down to some individual or software engineer. Do we know who that person is and, if so, what action is being taken to deal with that problem? A family member of mine works full-time in the motor industry. There are all kinds of implications for the credibility of different companies. Everybody has held Volkswagen in very high regard for many years and suddenly, out of the blue, we hear of this problem. People are asking whether this problem is affecting other models of car manufacturers. I would like to get specific answers to those questions.

Mr. Lars Himmer: Who did it is still an open question. The Volkswagen board and the management board of our company have said we will co-operate fully because we want to find out as well the who, why and how. These are fundamental questions and we have the same interest in finding answers. Knowing that would enable us to ensure it does not happen again and also how to move forward. We do not have a name today. The investigations are ongoing. They are ongoing with a legal company that is looking internally and also at authorities. I do not have any insights on how that is going or how much progress has been made or if that investigation will be finished at a certain point but I hope it will come quickly and that we get those answers. The public needs it, the committee needs it and we need it as well. My understanding is that it is internal software. I do not know of others being involved.

I would like to add a little to help understand the complexity of the case. Three different engines are impacted out of a total of approximately 11 million - three engines of 1.2 litre, 1.6 litre and 2 litres. There is different software from different suppliers on the three engines. Each engine is delivered to five different brands. Each engine has different transmission systems. The variations are very high. The complexity is high. It is not a box that is put on the car on- off switch. It is something that is in the software that makes it difficult. Unfortunately, that is why today we do not have the full solution for all of them but it is the solution that is coming engine by engine.

I do not have any comments about the industry. I have no reason to believe it did it.

Deputy Seán Kenny: Mr. Himmer mentioned different software suppliers for different types of engines. I think he said earlier that the software was developed internally in Volkswa- 28 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications gen but then he said there were different software suppliers involved. I am not clear as to where exactly this problem originated.

Mr. Lars Himmer: Neither am I. The base software that is on the engines comes from three different suppliers.

Deputy Seán Kenny: Three different suppliers.

Mr. Lars Himmer: That is then adapted by Volkswagen group. The investigations will show where that was.

Deputy Seán Kenny: Did these three software suppliers supply software to other car manufacturers what we know of?

Mr. Lars Himmer: I do not know who supplies to which companies.

Deputy Seán Kenny: We do not know whether this problem is universal to other car manufacturers or just confined to Volkswagen.

Mr. Alan Nolan: The motor industry is structured in a way that engine designs and software can be utilised by a number of manufacturers. That is the reason we and ACEA, knowing there is common use of certain designs in the industry, asked whether anybody else had this particular type of software aimed at reducing the NOX during a test. The answer was “no”, nobody else has that in operation.

Deputy Seán Kenny: As stated, no cars are manufactured in Ireland. We do not know what is happening internationally.

Mr. Alan Nolan: That information is coming from ACEA, the association of vehicle manufacturers based in Europe, so it is a fairly strong authority.

Deputy Dessie Ellis: I thank Mr. Himmer and Mr. Nolan for their presentation. The first reaction of most people to this issue has been the scale of the problem, not only here but across the Continent. The reason this continued from 2009 and was only discovered in 2015 is difficult for anybody to understand. If the problem is confined to the EA189 engine and there are three different versions of it and if it is down to the electronic monitoring, there is obviously a problem with the engine. If that is the case, can it be fixed? Is it a case that no matter what one does, the emissions from that engine will be a problem? From a technical view, even if one installs electronics, will that solve the problem and will it meet the standards not only here but in other European countries? Outside of the reputational damage to the company, there are other implications in terms of motor tax in other countries. There will also be implications for national car test centres as to why this was not detected. I gather the problem was not detected until the vehicle was in operation. If the electronics can fool NCT centres, there is an issue that needs to be addressed. I do not know whether that will have legal implications. In most countries there may be issues in terms of people who paid taxes and so on.

Have the witnesses noticed much of a change in the industry? Has this issue had a big effect on sales? Are we seeing a massive drop in sales? I am curious as to whether this will lead to job losses over a period. At the moment I can imagine many people are worried about their Volkswagen vehicles, their resale and the effects on the environment. Mr. Himmer said that approximately 110,000 vehicles are affected - 80,000 in Ireland and 30,000 imports, whether cars or other vehicles. Euro 6 has stated that, in general, nine out of ten cars exceed the limits.

29 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion Is it the witnesses’ goal to get the limits down to Euro 6 levels although it does not appear as if that would be possible?

I was a technician by trade before becoming a politician so I understand a good deal about the electronics. One can put stuff in electronically but so far as I can see, the actual engine is the issue. Perhaps the witnesses would comment on some of those questions.

Mr. Lars Himmer: The Deputy has asked several questions. I will try to take them in order. As to whether they will meet standards, they must. I am certain they will also be rigor- ously inspected and that the affected vehicles will be obliged to meet those standards. Today, Volkswagen is presenting to the German Federal Motor Transport Authority, which issues the type approval in Europe, our solution for the 2.0 litre engine and over the coming weeks, that authority will look carefully at it. It is important that it be both validated and approved before we then start to implement this solution in cars. Making this right should also then mean there should be no impact on CO2, for instance, and then on motor tax in Ireland. A concern was expressed about job losses. From a group perspective, this, of course, has been communicated as a disaster for the Volkswagen group. There have been announcements that we must cut costs. We already needed to do that, and this has been intensified. We are reviewing carefully our investments but from an Irish perspective, I mentioned I have 140 dedicated fantastic colleagues in Dublin and approximately 2,500 colleagues working with the brands at dealerships throughout the country. From a local market perspective, we must review some of the investments we are doing here but as an importer, they are relatively limited in the motor industry. I envisage more rather than less work in the future, as 115,000 cars need to be remedied in the next year. That is a lot of work. It will be done by us as an importer co- ordinating it, communicating with customers and making it as efficient a management process as we can for everybody. It will be our colleagues in the dealer network who will do the work and that will involve more work over the coming year. It will be a lot of work that will entail talking with customers to the effect that their car is getting the right solution, is back on the road and is good. Consequently, from a local perspective, I foresee very limited risk and actually see the opposite in the short term. Ultimately, it will depend on Volkswagen fixing this and setting it straight.

Mr. Alan Nolan: If I might just answer on the general principles, this is one issue in mov- ing to real driving emissions. Moreover, we in the motor industry in Ireland take on board all the things said about credibility as from our point of view, it is hugely important across the entire industry. When one looks at the current laboratory-based testing regime, it has been in place since the late 1980s and so is 35 years old. Cars were very different then and what is fit- ted to cars now is very different. The problem is it was set as a consistency test to make sure each manufacturer would do precisely the same thing. Consequently, while the comparison was good, it did not reflect what actually happened in the real world. As a result, the fact that when one drives the car it has different emissions than in that test is just a factor of the type of test it is. We cannot wait for it to move to real driving emissions because we are buyers of the technology in Ireland. As we do not make them, we can choose the very best. From our point of view, such a test will involve a portable laboratory, if one likes, towed behind a vehicle to actually measure it as it is driving along. The reason it will take time - that is, until 2017 to deliver it - is to make sure the test cycle is identical for each manufacturer for each vehicle to make sure they are completely consistent. However, when one considers the national car test,

NCT, the problem is we do not currently test for NOX emissions at these periodic tests. It is not part of the European requirement but this current debate might well change that.

30 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications Deputy Dessie Ellis: Are there tax implications?

Mr. Alan Nolan: In general, the tax is based on the type approval document, which carries the type approval measure on CO2 emissions and on CO2 only. Consequently, provided the cars are within this measure - that is why this debate at European level is about the approval document and making sure the vehicles actually match what was carried in the approval - it should have no implications for people.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: I thank the witnesses for their attendance and note Mr. Himmer, in particular, has a very difficult job here. He is answering questions because of something that someone in an office or laboratory far away decided to do. I acknowledge his role here today is very much as the messenger and I certainly do not wish to shoot the messenger but there are questions I must ask. One in particular concerns the removal of software or hardware. What impact will this have on every aspect of the performance of the vehicles affected? Can Mr. Himmer provide information in this regard? In addition, I refer to an important point for Volk- swagen customers. While it may be a worldwide phenomenon, I have found Irish people in particular to be loyal to their make of car. If they get a good one, many people will try to stick with the car brand that has served them well. In particular, I have found this to be the case in respect of Volkswagen drivers. I know many such drivers who are on their tenth or 15th Volk- swagen and these are the people for whom I really feel sorry. They feel let down and unsure. Many people who buy Volkswagen cars do so because they know they will get a good price for it when selling it on, all going well. Many of my constituents have asked me what impact this will have on resale value and Mr. Himmer must try to elaborate on this point.

My final question pertains to something that is paramount for anybody who is purchasing a car. This might sound like a stupid question but is there a safety implication arising from the removal of the aforementioned pieces of hardware and software? Is there a safety implication arising from any stage of the scandal about which drivers of Volkswagen cars or the other cars affected must be concerned?

Mr. Lars Himmer: It is special being in Ireland and in particular, working with Volkswa- gen. I recognised that as soon as I came here. As to exactly what will change, it is only what we are presenting at the moment but we undoubtedly are doing everything in order that there will be no change in respect of CO2 emissions, fuel consumption or performance. Were there to be, then we would be obliged to address it but there should not be. Consequently, I will not speculate and reiterate everything is being done to make certain it is meeting all the standards. When it meets all the standards, there also should be no difference in the residual value. We are monitoring this carefully not just in Ireland but even more so in other markets where we have a higher volume and better data points and we see very little impact. If one looks back on the history of recalls of our vehicles or those of others as an industry, while there might be minor beeps, they often settle very quickly as well. It really is about how we manage the next months and how we address the uncertainty that exists at present as we have the solutions. It will depend on that. On safety, there is no safety issue. We still have the type approval in place and the cars are safe to drive. They are roadworthy, there is no issue.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: On performance, Mr. Himmer is fully confident that performance will not be affected in any way.

Mr. Lars Himmer: Performance should not be affected.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: I have a final question on health. When the devices were re-

31 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion moved, some of the emissions were measured at more than 40 times the standard in the United States. In respect of safety, particularly in built-up areas, has Volkswagen, either internationally or here in Ireland, initiated research into the possible impacts on general public health and on the drivers of the vehicles themselves? Mr. Himmer might picture the scenario in which one is sitting in traffic for 30 minutes or an hour in a vehicle emitting 40 times the standard amounts. Has there been initiation of research on that front?

Mr. Lars Himmer: I might start by noting the Deputy mentioned the United States, where the regulations and the manner in which the tests are run are very different from the position in the European Union. If one considers NOx, which is the matter at hand here, the level for the current Euro 6 regulation in Europe is 80 milligrams per kilometre, whereas in the United States, it is 31 milligrams per kilometre only. Consequently, it is 2.5 times stricter in the United States. In addition, the software is effective in the test and what has been addressed at this meeting through The Society of the Irish Motor Industry, SIMI, is that the way we run the test today in Europe, through the new European driving cycle, NEDC, is increasingly different from what happens in real life. What needs to be done in the plan for 2017 is really to bring in real-life driving and real-life testing, which could answer some of the Deputy’s questions, in order that there would not be this difference. One of the figures I read is that the additional emissions as a result of the scandal equate to the entire carbon output of the UK for one year. The figures are not small, and the general impact needs to be at the forefront in terms of research and atoning for this.

Mr. Lars Himmer: I have not seen those figures. We are discussing NOx emissions. I cannot comment on that.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: I think Mr. Himmer for the presentation. I presume the cars with 1.2 litre, 1.6 litre and 2 litre engines are all diesel cars.

Mr. Lars Himmer: Yes. Others are not affected at all.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: Am I correct in saying that in 2009, Volkswagen changed the emissions? Does this mean that the emissions from a car built now are the same as those from a car that was built in 2008, because this did not work, or are they greater now? Is it true that Volkswagen has now stopped selling all of its vehicles, including Transporter vans, Cad- dies and so on, in Ireland? Is there a plan for dealers who live on the turnover from selling such vehicles? Their income will decrease massively.

As with many other vehicles down through the years, modification is an issue. Software and hardware were mentioned. What hardware does Volkswagen use? Are liners or pistons changed? Are intercepter boxes installed, or has the problem been solved? The problem does not affect the ability to drive a car or its day-to-day running. Rather, we are focused on emissions.

I note with interest that when cars go for the NCT they are revved up to check emissions - they get a fairly good revving in Ireland. How were cars able to beat the machine? Reference was made to NOx and other emissions. I am open to correction, but I understood the presentation stated that when driving on the road the emissions were greater than when a car was standing or being revved. Was there a block box or hardware stopping emissions from being detected when cars were standing?

Mr. Lars Himmer: We no longer deliver vehicles that are affected or are part of the recall.

32 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications There are a number of vehicles in Ireland and a few are still on their way; they are at our com- pound. We have withdrawn the birth certificates for these vehicles so they cannot be registered. As of today, we have suspended the sales of approximately 450 vehicles in Ireland. It is also important to say that any vehicle now going into a dealership-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: I apologise for interrupting. Are most Volkswagen cars and vans at a standstill?

Mr. Lars Himmer: No, not at all. A very minor amount are standing still. Some 115,917 vehicles are affected, including the ones standing still, and a service campaign is required. That will be done and we have the timeframe for it, which is approved with the type approval authority. We have to go up to that and, with that commitment, also acknowledge that the cars are fit to drive.

We are in very close communication with our dealers, which has been the case for many years. We are in even closer contact now to see how the situation is developing because it is having an impact on them. We also need to work very closely together to make certain that we can handle a campaign involving 115,000 cars next year. It is a very large number. As soon as we know what the full solution will be, such as whether one or two hours of software updates are required, we will inform dealers. Of the hardware in question, the main issue is the injector. We will then know exactly what capacity is needed, and we are working that out with dealers.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: So what Mr. Himmer is saying is that Volkswagen will have to modify the injectors or install different ones?

Mr. Lars Himmer: Yes. It is a technical solution which we need to present in the middle of November, but it looks like it will involve software and most likely a change of injector.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: Bosch injectors were used. Are they a problem?

Mr. Lars Himmer: I do not know. I am not a technician in that sense. On the question on Irish revving or whether there is a black box------

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: I referred to cars going for an NCT.

Mr. Lars Himmer: The test that is conducted is not done in the NCT. Rather, it is done when we get the type approval. It is done by the national authority.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice: Mr. Himmer is missing my point. How were the cars able to con NCT machines in Ireland when they were revved to check the emissions? The problem appears to have started in 2009, and once a car is two or three years old, it has to be tested. Emissions testing for cars involves the use of spec sheets to test standards. How were cars able to fool the emissions machines here?

Mr. Lars Himmer: I do not think they did. I am not a specialist in the NCT, but maybe Mr. Nolan can comment.

Mr. Alan Nolan: I can help Mr. Himmer with that. The NCT does not check for NOx. It is not part of the European testing requirement. It tests for CO2, soot and other things. These discussions may change that.

I do not want to downplay NOx emissions and the health issues attached to them. As an industry, we need to find solutions. Research in Europe would suggest that NOx output from

33 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion the car fleet has reduced by 40% or 50% over a period of about ten or 15 years, at a time when the number of cars has increased by the same number. The situation has improved. In Ireland there have been no issues because we are quite an empty country, other than, I understand, once during 2009 when EPA research showed we came close to having NOx issues. It only affected small areas. I am not downplaying the issue, but because we are a large open country it is not as much of an issue. In 2009 we were at the lowest point of the recession, and the problem had more to do with a lack of maintenance on vehicles, which has an impact, as well as weather conditions.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I am sorry I was not here earlier, but I received the presentation. I welcome the witnesses. I have to declare an interest - I drive an Audi diesel car. Would the witnesses not agree that the confidence of the consumer base has been shaken as a result of this?

Over the past decade, the issue of carbon emissions was centre stage and the public percep- tion was that the motor industry in general was resisting improving and reducing carbon emissions, particularly when EU legislation was proposed. At the same time, the motor industry and Volkswagen promoted the view that it was attempting to make diesel more acceptable. As we all know, diesel is a dirty fuel, but it made diesel more acceptable and improved it performance- wise. It has certainly improved since the first diesel vehicle I purchased. At the same time, it claimed that carbon emissions were being reduced. At that time, Volkswagen had a technician or group of technicians beavering away in Wolfsburg trying to defy the emissions issue. Quite frankly, Volkswagen should be ashamed of itself for doing that. Will heads roll? The witnesses addressed the question of the ongoing investigation earlier. How long does it take to investi- gate something in a company as large as Volkswagen? Who was responsible for this? Was it one individual or a research team operating within the structure? I am not familiar with the company’s structure, but was it a team? I presume that it was as I doubt that this was just one software engineer unless he or she had a eureka moment and found a way to get around the emissions regulations. Someone somewhere along the chain had to approve this. As such, the entire company is under question, not just those people.

I suggest that the sooner Volkswagen gets this out into the open, the better for the company. It seems strange that it is taking so long for Volkswagen to identify the culprit or culprits and determine how it happened. It was very clever. The software was so sophisticated that it did not activate until it sensed that the car was being tested while, under normal driving conditions, it made no difference.

What Volkswagen has done is disgraceful. Will this have an adverse financial effect on the company? Is it possible that Volkswagen could go under? Although Volkswagen has presented €6.5 billion to address the problem, every day there are indications that it is much larger than was recognised on day one. Are there discussions within the company of a loss? Mr. Himmer indicated that there had not been much of a loss in sales, but public confidence has been shat- tered.

To Mr. Himmer’s colleagues from SIMI, should I now be changing from diesel and consid- ering petrol? We do not seem to be able to trust the motor industry to make the improvements it has been claiming. Sentiment seems to be against diesel now because it is a dirty fuel. Is this having an impact? What is SIMI’s views on consumer resistance developing towards diesel? I am beginning to revise my opinion on whether to switch even though I have been driving diesel cars for 15 years. I used to drive liquefied petroleum gas cars.

Will Volkswagen grasp the important issue of carbon emissions? Given its sophisticated 34 Joint Committee on Transport and Communications structures and the expertise it has at its disposal, can we hope to expect news from Volkswagen that not only has it addressed this problem but also that it has further eliminated carbon emissions from its cars? Is this part of the company’s mission statement? I am not trying to be hostile. I am only trying to reflect a consumer view. This is the opportunity to do that. I like Audi cars and am on my third, but Volkswagen has undermined public confidence. The people involved must be identified publicly, fired and maybe subjected to criminal charges, although that last is not an issue for Mr. Himmer or me. I urge Volkswagen to resolve this matter as quickly as possible and not to prevaricate.

Chairman: Does Deputy Harrington wish to ask a brief question?

Deputy Noel Harrington: Yes, and I apologise as I had to attend something else. If I ask a question or two-----

Chairman: I will stop the Deputy.

Deputy Noel Harrington: Indeed. This is a global deception and many people have been affected for different reasons. Many were customers of the Volkswagen group given the lower emission levels advertised for its vehicles and that environmental issues were an important consideration when purchasing. Ireland has a taxation regime that is based on low emissions. It has been compromised. I am a customer of the group. My car is not affected because it is an older vehicle and I pay a higher rate of tax on it based on its stated emissions, as many do. However, there are those who pay less and the State gets a smaller tax take because of the group’s declared emissions. Have the implications of this been addressed and quantified by the group in partnership with the State or another agency? Has work begun on determining how the emission figures will impact on the Exchequer, the customer and the group? What other EU countries have similar emissions-based taxation systems? Has that issue been quantified? I hope Mr. Himmer will tell us that work has begun as there is a great deal more to be done as regards the emissions figures that this State must regularly audit and present to the Commission. This will have major implications for the State.

There will also be issues for the markets and business confidence in this and most countries where the group operates as well as for the group’s companies and their staff, both those who are directly employed by those companies and those who are indirectly employed throughout the country and whose business depends on sales that are based on the group’s supposedly genuine information. Has Volkswagen conducted a study of this impact? The implications arise from a deception that was meant to gain a competitive edge over other manufacturers. That stance is unjustifiable.

Mr. Lars Himmer: If I may combine a couple of the comments, I agree that the sooner we find out what happened, who did what and why they did it, the better. We all ask that question - consumers, the public and employees - and look for those answers. I hope that they come quickly, but I do not have a date for them. It is also important that we not jump to conclusions. We want to find the right people and understand the reasons.

Taxation in Ireland and many other European countries has been focused on carbon dioxide whereas the software in the engines addressed nitrogen oxide, NOx, which is not related to taxation. Distinguishing between the two is important. We are committed to lowering CO2 emissions further. Diesel is more efficient than petrol, which pays when one has a higher mile- age. Our new management team and CEO have stated that we will only develop diesel engines with selective catalytic reduction, SCR, and AdBlue, which is cleaner. We will also focus more

35 Emissions Readings for Volkswagen Cars: Discussion aggressively on our electrical vehicles.

Wolfsburg, the home of Volkswagen, is a special place. Its factory is interesting. Along the assembly line, different models have the same platform. One can see a Golf that comes as a petrol, the next Golf along the line is a diesel, the next uses compressed natural gas, CNG, the next is a plug-in hybrid and the next is electrical. We want to push emissions down and we have the different technologies and vehicles to do it.

The software update should have no impact on CO2. Therefore, there should be no tax implications.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: Did Mr. Himmer or anyone else at Volkswagen Ireland know about the global scandal before the news broke?

Mr. Lars Himmer: None whatsoever.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: No one at Volkswagen Ireland was aware that something unethi- cal was happening.

Mr. Lars Himmer: No.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: Can Mr. Himmer stand over that statement categorically?

Mr. Lars Himmer: Yes.

Chairman: On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Himmer, Mr. Comyn, Mr. Burke, Mr. Nolan, Mr. Cooke and Mr. Cullen for attending and outlining their responses to this difficult situation. This is a major and ongoing issue. It is in the interests of the customers, dealers, Volk- swagen and SIMI that this be addressed very quickly. Mr. Himmer rightly stated loss of value and compensation had to be based on facts. It is important, when the facts are established, that the issues of compensation, the resale value and fleet owners about which we talked about are met upfront. There should only be winners in this regard. That includes customers, dealers and Volkswagen. I ask Mr. Himmer to inform the committee of developments as soon as possible.

Mr. Lars Himmer: I will.

Chairman: I thank Mr. Himmer.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 October 2015. .