Fiveways junction improvements

Consultation Summary

We recently consulted on proposed changes to A20 Sidcup junction with Green and Southwood Road (Fiveways)

A total of 50 responses were received from members of the public. Of these, 47 were in full support of the scheme and three were against.

After carefully considering all responses, we plan to go ahead with the changes in summer 2014.

Summary of TfL Responses to issues raised

The improvements to the junction for cyclists are very welcome. Is it really however necessary to widen the pedestrian refuge? How often is it full? Will this impact throughput in any way?

The pedestrian refuges at the junction do not satisfy existing design standards. In particular, they are too narrow for pedestrians with pushchairs or wheelchairs to wait on comfortably without protruding into the carriageway. The proposed scheme increases the widths of the refuges to allow this to occur and does not affect capacity at the junction.

“Please introduce a filter system, thus allowing and incentivising motorists to turn right on a green signal, whilst straight ahead remains a red light.”

There is currently a right turn arrow for vehicles turning from the Green Lane southern arm into either Southwood Road northbound or the A20 Sidcup Road eastbound. Options to introduce right turn arrows for motorists approaching the junction on the A20 Sidcup Road have been investigated as part of the scheme development. Unfortunately, the introduction of this method of control would significantly reduce traffic capacity at the junction, resulting in longer queues and delays on each approach. Experience of similar issues at other junctions shows that this can lead to more drivers making injudicious turns across oncoming traffic, increasing the risk of collisions.

“I use the Fiveways junction a lot (living close by) and by far the major problem is traffic turning right from the London bound A20 to either Southwood Rd or Green Lane. Although there is a 'right turn' lane so many vehicles 'jump' this queue from the centre lane thereby annoying the queuing drivers and often need to leave the rear of their vehicle still projecting partially into the centre lane. I've witnessed a number of collisions because of this impatience. I think the increased length of the 'right hand turning' lane may help although may I suggest a 'heavy' painted line be applied close to the junction. Also the centre lane could have 'Ahead Only' painted

on it.”

The proposals include remarking the right-turn waiting areas on the eastbound and westbound approaches. This should encourage drivers turning right from the A20 Sidcup Road eastbound into Green Lane southbound to wait further west, potentially preventing vehicles turning right from the ahead only centre lane. ‘Ahead only road markings can be introduced in the centre lane to reinforce this.

“The biggest problem I have is as a car driver turning right onto either Southwood Road or green lane from Sidcup Road eastern side. We do not need any lengthening of turning right queuing lane, we need to get rid of the excessive queue caused by the inability of many car drivers unable to place there vehicles in the turning right box. This can be achieved by trimming off the corner of the refuge (not reducing any pedestrian area ) making it easier for motorists lacking spacial awareness to fit there vehicles in the box ( to Southwood Road ).”

Changes to the layout of this area of the junction have been investigated as part of the development of the scheme. Unfortunately, the amount of space available to be potentially cut back between the end of the island and the area is only around 0.5 metres, when traffic lights and furniture is taken into account. Converting this area to carriageway would not be likely to make a significant difference to the ability of drivers to position themselves correctly within the right turn area. Increasing the length of the right turn lane is expected to increase the capacity of the eastern arm of the junction, allowing greater throughput of traffic and enabling easier access to the right turn lane.

“The pedestrian refuge on the Sidcup Road Eastern Side needs to be moved further south so that the area for traffic turning right into Southwood Road is lengthened. At the moment despite the current road markings many cars turning into Southwood Road don't align with the road markings and block the Green Lane right turn causing delays and frustration.”

Investigations into amending the layout at this location have been undertaken as part of the scheme development. However, moving the pedestrian crossing further south would be expected to reduce capacity of the eastern approach, as vehicles would take longer to clear the junction, reducing the amount of green time available to traffic. This would potentially cause longer queues on the A20 Sidcup Road eastern approach, further reducing the opportunities for vehicles to enter the right turn lane.

“Traffic, literally fighting to exit William Barefoot Drive, two , can’t, without great difficulty, get into the outside lane of Green Lane to access, either Southwood Road or A20, Kent bound, upshot, illegal right hand turns at the expense of queuing traffic waiting to filter right, thus destroying the filter flow. The filter time is already absurdly short. This is both dangerous and ultimately fewer vehicles make the turn.”

The junction of Green Lane and William Barefoot Drive is outside the scope of this scheme as it is on the Borough road network and therefore, comes under the jurisdiction of The Royal Borough of Greenwich. The signal timings at the junction are set up in such a way to optimise throughput of traffic across all approaches. Increasing the green time of the right turn arrow on the northbound approach would require the removal of green time from other approaches. This would significantly exacerbate the delays already experienced at the junction, leading to longer queues on all approaches.

“When travelling from Mottingham to Fiveways and needing to turn right into green lane towards Chislehurst it would be helpful if the traffic light opposite had a light facing this direction so one could see when the lights had changed thus enabling one to cross this junction without either hitting another vehicle or being hooted by the person/s behind as you cannot see what is coming.”

It is not possible to provide a far sided secondary signal in this location as the two main operate independently from one another. This means that if the eastbound direction were to go red, the westbound direction may still have a green signal. Consequently, it could confuse motorists thinking the opposite direction also has a red signal which is a safety concern.

“I cannot find any fault with the proposed works, but note that the crossing on Green Lane does not currently have any pedestrian lights at all. Will these be added when the is widened and realigned?”

“Why no green man on lights at Sidcup Road to cross to get to the garage as there is anything to tell you when to cross the A20.”

Options to introduce signal controlled pedestrian crossings across each arm of the junction have been investigated as part of the scheme development. However, the consequential reduction in traffic capacity at the junction would lead to significantly worse congestion on all approaches. Given the low pedestrian flow in the area together with the low pedestrian collision record at the junction, it was concluded that provision of signalised crossings across all arms was not warranted on this occasion.

“I would like to see alterations that make a u-turn at the lights from the eastern side of the A20 impossible. At the moment although there is a sign saying no u-turns it only acts as an indicator that it is a viable option and is taken advantage of very often.”

Signing of prohibiting U-turns at junctions is usually provided in association with a Traffic Management Order, which is the case here. These legally stop drivers from undertaking the specified manoeuvre and it is the responsibility of the police to enforce these.

“One problem is on Sidcup Road, west to east, drivers either doing a u turn or turning into the petrol garage, and blocking the right turn lane into Green Lane south side.

Unfortunately there is little that can be done about this issue. With regards to queuing for the petrol station, we must rely on driver behaviour. With regards to the U-turns, it would be unreasonable to ban this manoeuvre as it would severely inconvenience residents on the south side of Sidcup Road as they would need to go on a significant diversion to access their properties.

Another problem is drivers coming from the Burger King car park and turning right, the drivers pull out and block Green Lane, north to south until someone lets them in.”

Planning permission has been granted for the Burger King site to be converted into a hotel and flats. Whilst the exit onto Green Lane is not likely to change, the number of vehicles accessing the site is predicted to reduce which should help to relieve this issue.

“Will the drainage be fixed as well because when it rains it is like a pond by the crossing point from Burger King to the wedding dress shop?”

The carriageway around the whole junction will be resurfaced as part of the proposed scheme and any drainage problems will be addressed as part of these works.

“The proposed actions do not address the extremely long tailbacks which routinely build up down Southwood Road from the traffic lights at Fiveways. Neither do they address the very long time it takes to turn right from Green Lane into Southwood Road. Indeed it seems to me that all sides of the junction are congested, because there are fundamentally too many vehicles entering and leaving. Something far more drastic is required. Perhaps a traffic light-controlled would help?”

The proposed scheme does not exacerbate the existing queues at the junction, generally. While the option of providing a signalised roundabout has not been considered in detail, mainly due to cost implications, it is considered that the land available to construct a roundabout capable of efficiently accommodating all traffic movements at the junction would not be available within the current junction footprint.

“I agree with suggested recommendations. Would like to see some deterrent for jumping traffic lights on A20,also same for traffic doing a u- turn onto the A20 from the Green Lane filter.”

As part of the proposed scheme, a red light camera is due to be installed on the eastern arm of the A20. This should act as a deterrent to discourage drivers from carrying out this manoeuvre.

“Whilst you are doing the proposed alterations to the A20 Fiveways it would be helpful if, at the bottom of Felhampton road, on the A20 you could either put keep clear signs or an alternative to enable cars to get out of Felhampton road onto the A20 safely.”

Yes, this can be considered.