HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

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House Bill 2560 - Home Education Law

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House Education Committee

The Forum Building Hamsburg Pennsylvania

Thursday June 13, 2002 - 10 05 a m

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EFORE onorable Jess Stairs, Majority Chairperson onorable Tom Armstrong onorable Bob Bastian onorable Paul Clymer onorable Patrick Fleagle onorable Robert Flick onorable Lynn Herman onorable Edward Krebs onorable Fred Mcllhattan onorable Ron Miller onorable Jerry Nailor onorable Samuel Rohrer onorable Jere Schuler onorable Nicholas Colafella Minority Chairperson onorable Lawrence Curry onorable Richard Grucela onorable Thaddeus Kirkland onorable John Lawless onorable Phyllis Mundy

-r*«„-08* ORIGINAL EFORE (cont'd )

:onorable William Robinson :onorable James Roebuck :onorable Sara Steelman lonorable Michael Sturla

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JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR 2nd & W Norwegian Streets P 0 Box 1383 Pottsville, Pennsylvania 17901 .LSO PRESENT en Hoover Majority Research Analyst leanor Romano Majority Administrative Assistant amie Buchenauer Majority Research Analyst ave Dumeyer Majority Executive Director CONTENTS

ITNESSES PAGE r Carol Saylor, Superintendent 14 Manheim Central School District s Idette B Groff 19 School Board Member Conestoga Valley School District r Chris Klicka 25 Home School Legal Defense Association r Brian Ray 34 National Home Education Research Institute

s Maryalice Newborn 97 Pennsylvania Home Education Network

!s Ellen Kramer 103 Catholic Home Schoolers of Pennsylvania s Carol Lugg 107 North Central Pennsylvania Home Schoolers r Howard Richman 112 PA Home Schoolers Accreditation Agency r Bruce Eagleson 117 Christian Home School Association of PA (CHAP) s Mary Hudzinski 123 Mason-Dixon Home School Diploma Program 5

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Good morning If I could ave your attention for well not just a few minutes but aybe a few hours during our presentation Knowing this is

very large crowd I would appreciate kind of giving you i idea of our agenda this morning

And I know you're going to listen patiently id quietly as I know that -- I see a lot of students So aybe they can pretend they're at home at school And as ley take part in their school activities, they work arnestly and quietly So I would like to begin our, our taring

I am Representative Jess Stairs from

2stmoreland County and I'm Chairman of the Education

Dmmittee And I think it would be appropriate for you to low us maybe a little better So we'll start to my left

: the end of the table and start with Representative awless

And I would hope that each Representative auld give us their name and also their county so you might

2 able to identify with them So go ahead

REPRESENTATIVE LAWLESS Representative John awless from Montgomery County

REPRESENTATIVE KREBS Representative Ed Krebs rom Lebanon County

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Representative Phyllis

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lundy from Luzerne County

REPRESENTATIVE CURRY Representative Lawrence

'urry from Eastern Montgomery County

REPRESENTATIVE BASTIAN Representative Bob astian Somerset County

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Representative Pat leagle from Franklin County

REPRESENTATIVE CLYMER Representative Paul lymer from Bucks County

REPRESENTATIVE ROHRER Representative Sam ohrer from Berks County

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Representative Jerry ailor from Cumberland County

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN I'm State epresentative Fred Mcllhattan I represent the 63rd egislative District which includes Clarion and Armstrong ounties

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA Representative Nick olafella from Beaver County

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK Representative Jim oebuck from Philadelphia

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Representative Sara teelman from Indiana and Cambria Counties

REPRESENTATIVE HERMAN Representative Lynn erman Centre County

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REPRESENTATIVE MILLER Representative Ron liller from York County

REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON Representative Bill

Robinson Allegheny County

REPRESENTATIVE ARMSTRONG Representative Tom irmstrong Lancaster County

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA Representative Rich

(rucela, Northampton County

(Applause )

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS A reminder to the egislators our microphone there's no light to indicate f it's on or off But if you do push the button a couple if times it will work So mine evidently is working lthough there's no light to indicate that it's working o when the legislators ask questions a little later on ou can check the microphone

I would kind of maybe lay out a few ground ules before we get started I know this is an emotional, motionally charged issue And we have strong feelings nd I understand that But although -- and this is no no ports event where we applaud, you know, the gladiators or he participants

I would hope that, you know -- there might be ome charged statements that are made and some things that

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 8

ou may agree with wholeheartedly or you may disagree ith and vehemently disagree with But I would ppreciate -- and I know you have good manners So I have

.o problem to not to expect it -- but appreciate your estraints from verbal applause when you hear something you ike or hear something you don't like because I suspect hat during the course of a hearing

And this hearing is being held to inform the egislators And the public is invited certainly And hat's why we're in this room If we didn't want you here e would have had it in one of the quarter rooms in the lapitol somewhere where you would have been you know ouldn't have gone into it

So we wanted you to be here And we also want he members to be able to hear the testimony because as in his bill as in all bills, we certainly we like to be nformed and hear the comments from the people who are who ant to share thoughts with us So it's for our nformation and your information also

And we're going to be hearing this information oday There will be no votes taken It's not the purpose o vote after this meeting's over We'll probably have

.iscussions and then and have that voting at a later date ut it's informational purposes only

So with that in mind we have 2 panel groups

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ultiple numbers of people in the panels So there will be

number of people speaking And I have taken the rivilege of limiting our speakers to 5 minutes Now bviously, I understand some people can talk for hours upon ours on the subject And I don't doubt that one bit

But I think brevity is the word of the day ith an important issue like this And you should be able o state your opinion very clearly and plainly in 5 mutes And then after that, each presenter has their 5 mutes Then they'll all complete their thoughts finish he panel

And then the legislators will ask questions nd we'll ask questions till we run out of questions I uess put it that way But we would like to begin with ur first speaker, the sponsor of the bill

REPRESENTATIVE CLYMER Mr Chairman, can I sk a question first7

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Yes, you may ask a uestion

REPRESENTATIVE CLYMER I see this is being ideotaped and also a stenographer I regret I have nother meeting at 11 00 o'clock at the Capitol I have to ttend What's the time frame on us being able to get a opy of the testimony that we can read at a future time7

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS It's my understanding the

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tenographers would have this available in a month or ooner or hopefully sooner But at least it may be a onth And the --of course this is being broadcast live cross the Commonwealth And tapes will be available robably in a matter of a day or so

So I don't think there will be any great ifficulty to -- and I know PCN replays their programs So

'm sure people who are here today go home tonight and or ver the weekend maybe seeing this and they can tape it of ourse, in their homes too But yeah the information hould be available soon That's my hope anyway

Representative Rohrer if you would please ou are the sponsor of House Bill 2560 and I would hope hat you could give us a few remarks to explain the bill to s

REPRESENTATIVE ROHRER Thank you All right

think we have figured out the technical glitch here nly one mike can be open at a time So just for nformation sake when we're done speaking we'll hit the utton and then everybody else should be able to turn on

Thank you Mr Chairman, for the scheduling of his hearing today It is indeed a real pleasure to see uch good attendance here today in the interest in this ery very important bill House Bill 2560 is an attempt o revise for the first time in 14 years the home school

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aw that prevails in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

Many of you sitting out here today perhaps ave home schooled prior to that most perhaps since that lme I was not here in 1988 when, by court order at that omt, the Commonwealth was instructed to implement and to ut into place a law

In 1988 a lot of things were different than ow A lot of things were unknown The future of what ould happen what would be the impact of this bill and he whole area of home education, let alone the whole area f education in general A lot of things were not known in

988 Then in 2002, we can look back and see a lot of hings

But there have been no changes since 1988 We re now in a place of being able to look back and be able o say How has this bill done7 How has it impacted home ducation in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania9 And how ow easy or lack thereof or difficult, or however you want o look at it, has it been for parents to choose to home ducate in this fashion7 And really which brings me to the ntent of why the bill was introduced

After many many years and hearing from really undreds and thousands of home educators across this ountry and frankly speaking to to superintendents of ublic schools and the Department of Education and others

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hat are involved from different aspects of this it really ecame clear that some changes were in order and needed to e made in order to make the situation improved on all spects and all fronts

And so I, along with 2 other House members who re home educated Representative Tom Armstrong and Joe etrarca have spent many, many, many months with with ome educating individuals from organizations and parents like across this Commonwealth in an effort to come up with

with a bill that would best address the current needs hat face us in this Commonwealth today

And essentially, that's what 2560 does And I now as we all know sitting at this table --we have heard rom thousands of parents across this Commonwealth -- there re many questions There are there are some issues that eally we are looking forward to being able to discuss oday at this table in front of us

And that's really why we're here After not aving done anything with this bill for 14 years it eally frankly -- probably I'd say most House members hemselves and Senate members really don't even understand ow things function in this area just because it has unctioned in the fashion that it has

And so a lot of this is real education I now a lot of the members are really, including myself,

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antxng to hear, frankly, what is presented this day And o with that I'm not going to speak anymore I'm glad for epresentative Stairs' staff in particular who have helped o hard in helping me put together this group

And I know they've worked some long hours in uttmg this together And I'm looking forward to good estimony this day So with that Mr Chairman I'm ready o begin

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Now we have a system orked out where I have to turn off and then you turn on e got it figured out here now We'd like to begin our irst panel presentation And the first panelists if they ould please come forward and face, face across from us and he podium here, please

I'll let the panelists introduce themselves ut we've got a school board member a school upermtendent, a staff member from the National Home chool Legal Defense Association and the National Home chool Research Institute So that should be our anelists

And when they arrive on the stage they can ntroduce themselves And each one will have a 5-minute resentation and then we'll ask questions Good morning anel I'll go down the list the way I announced you And ur first presenter will be our school superintendent if

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ou want to introduce yourself and then make your remarks

And then after everybody has spoken then e'll have questions then for the panel then

DR SAYLOR Sure I thought I was going to e last Are we on7 House Bill 2560 if adopted, could ertamly make my job easier However I'm here to say I on't think it's good for children Let me start over ouse Bill 2560 if adopted, would certainly make my job asier However, I don't think it's good for students

I'm Carol Saylor Superintendent of the anheim Central School District in Lancaster County I'm lso president-elect of the Pennsylvania Association of chool Administrators on whose behalf I'm here this ormng

Almost 200 children m my school district atisfy the compulsory school attendance requirements hrough home schooling Under the present statutory ramework, parents who embark on home schooling must first nform me of their intent

They must file with me an affidavit that they ill comply with the program requirements for home choolmg that they will maintain a portfolio of their hild's work for review by a supervisor of their choice nd they will submit the portfolio and the supervisor's valuation to me at the end of each year

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The overwhelming majority -- and I need to tress that -- the overwhelming majority of the home school amilies that I deal with are conscientious and committed hey take their obligations very seriously, and they work ery hard to ensure that their children learn the content equired by the state

Section 1327 1 works to give them the option hey want for their child's education It also works to rotect the integrity of the compulsory school attendance aw the Commonwealth's interest in an educated citizenry, nd each child's safety, health and opportunity to learn

House Bill 2560 repeals those protections he bill would eliminate the affidavit The affidavit is mportant because it officially establishes home schooling t specifically identifies the adult who will be esponsible for the child's education and it reiterates he education program requirements that are a part of the ome education program We think this is important The ffidavit underscores the breadth of the obligations that he parent is undertaking prior to beginning them

House Bill 2560 would replace the official nor notice provided by the affidavit with notice within

0 days of establishing the program and notice within 3 0 ays of termination Under this language, it's possible hat the school district would not be aware that a child is

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>emg home educated until after the student is absent from he regular school program for 3 0 days Only upon inquiry if the compulsory or upon initiation of the compulsory ittendance law might we learn that the student is being tome educated

House Bill 2560 would require the parent to ive the superintendent the name of the supervisor of the tome education program No other information about the

:upervisor is required There is no requirement to dentify his or her qualifications There is no equirement to provide his or her address There is no

•equirement to identify the location of the program There s no requirement to report a change in supervisors or a hange in location

Under the present law the affidavit certifies hat neither the home education supervisor nor any adults iving in the home have been convicted of a statutorily numerated crime within the past 5 years This is not a equirement of House Bill 2560

Under the present law the parent must submit vidence that the child has been immunized This is not a equirement of House Bill 2560 Under the present law the arent must submit evidence that the child has received the ealth and medical services required by the school code his is not a requirement of House Bill 2560

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Under the present law the child must take the

'ennsylvania State Assessment or an approved alternate

.ssessment in grades 3 5 and 8 This is not a

'equirement of 2560 Under the present law, the supervisor lust maintain a portfolio of student work submit it to an valuator of their choice, and obtain a written evaluation

•f the student's educational progress The portfolio and he written evaluation are then submitted to the upermtendent at the end of the school year There is no equirement for outside review of a student's educational rogress in House Bill 2560

As I said earlier 200 residents of Manheim entral School District currently take advantage of the

.ome school programs For each we have an affidavit For ach we review the evaluator's report and the student's ortfolio We try to provide the parents with appropriate eedback

We want these youngsters to be successful nd we want them should they decide to return to us at ome point in the future be able to succeed in classes ith students their own age It takes a considerable mount of time on my part and the part of my staff to omply with the law as it currently exists

We do it and my colleagues do it not just ecause it's the law but because we think it protects

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hildren We urge you to move cautiously before you repeal hose protections Certainly many of our home educated tudents do very very well without our intervention

But we don't know how many would run into roblems if there was no monitoring if there were no local fficial keeping track of the arrangements made for their ducation and if there were no one available to provide pecific assistance

Many parents who are home schooling welcome nd benefit from our review Our review and the review of he outside evaluator gives them confidence that their tudents are making adequate progress In some cases our eview may identify areas where additional instruction may e useful

In some cases it gives our staff a chance to uggest strategies or materials that will help the student nd the parent in achieving their goals The regular ontact required by the law helps us to maintain a elationship with those families who may at some point e-enroll their children in public school and it helps us nticipate their needs

Certainly it's extra work for the district ut it is work that we think is appropriately assigned to s We oppose the repeal of these provisions as stated in ouse Bill 2560 Thank you very much

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CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Yes Thank you, Dr aylor Our next presenter will be a representative of the chool boards

MS GROFF Good morning My name is Idette roff and I'm a member of the Conestoga Valley School istrict --

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS If you would keep close o the microphone and speak loud

MS GROFF Good morning My name is Idette roff and I am a member of the Conestoga Valley School istrict Board of Directors in Lancaster County I also erve on the Executive Board of the Pennsylvania School oards Association at whose request I am here today to iscuss the impact of House Bill 2560 on present and future ome school students

Lancaster County is uniquely situated to view nd experience firsthand the interrelationship of many ducational systems and especially to view home schooling s a system not just from the anecdotal experience of a ew examples

Of over 24 000 home school students in ennsylvania the largest concentration is in the outheastern part of the state with Lancaster County's opulation well ahead of all other counties Close to 10 ercent of the state's home school students live there

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here their neighbors may attend public schools day wilight or alternative programs private religious ecular, boarding, or day schools charter schools or yber schools

They may be homebound or use private tutors ome are served by the Intermediate Unit 13, Lancaster ounty Career and Technology Centers or the Lancaster ounty Academy, an alternative school sponsored by local chool districts Some attend neighboring districts for pecialized curriculum Others take advantage of atriculation agreements with Harrisburg Area Community ollege or local private and state colleges

There's a wealth of educational opportunity m ancaster County We are not competitors We are all part f parallel systems dedicated to serve the educational eeds of our students, not so rigidly parallel that we annot find opportunities to cooperate share, and learn rom each other And all observe the state attendance, ealth safety, and academic accountability requirements

Conestoga Valley's 132 home schoolers are mong the 41 percent of our school-age population who articipate in an educational program other than the public chool That number may be atypically high because of the articipation in Amish schools though our district aintams probably the last 1- or 2-room school in the

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tate It's our multi-age experience

Otherwise the statewide data on home choolers from the Pennsylvania Department of Education and ts trends are closely mirrored in Conestoga Valley in erms of purpose age grade participation gender and rowth as opposed to districts whose limited home school opulation may reflect only a piece of the picture

What is not reflected in the data because of ur large numbers is the amount of time and resources we edicate to our responsibilities to home schoolers owever tempting it may seem to embrace the opportunity to e released from these responsibilities and utilize that ime, energy and related costs to our own programs we annot do that

Saving time and money at kids' expense is not cceptable We share in the state's responsibility to rovide a thorough and efficient system of education for

11 children While our primary focus may be on the tudents in our schools we are aware of our part in the lgger picture

We work in education not because we believe ur students deserve the opportunity for education but ecause all children do And we believe in the related lghts to safety, health, and quality The issue is not hether home schooling can be quality education Of course

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t can

The issue is not public school versus home choolmg We are not adversaries The issue is not even oney for a change The issue is about what is really mportant children and their education Whatever ecisions are made relative to the connection between home choolers and their local public schools the state must ot abdicate its responsibilities to these children

If you are to legitimately endorse the xistence of these parallel systems of education you must ot ignore the basic requirements of all systems I would ike to highlight a few of these basic requirements that ould appear to disappear as this bill is currently ritten

Especially glaring are the inconsistencies ith the Federal IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Act ot only does House Bill 2560 allow the home school upervisor to dictate the types of services they want it emoves from the evaluation and decision-making process hose experts on the IEP Individualized Education Program, earn that work with the parents to craft a plan that is est for the needs of their child

The newly written bill abdicates all esponsibility for the health and safety of the home school tudent by removing the required evidence of proper

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mmunization health and medical services at the same time hat the state is trying to assure more children have ealth care through programs such as CHIP Children's health Insurance Program

It also abandons the required criminal creening at a time when we are all becoming more sensitive o the plight of children who may be caught in dangerous ome situations Without the required affidavit at the eginning of a program there will be no directory nformation and a child could get lost outside the system aking it difficult for any agency to serve that child

Unfortunately the bill in its current form lso removes the connection between any other education ystem and the home schooler While the district's elationships I mentioned earlier enhance programs home choolers would be more distanced under this legislation

For those home schoolers who move in and out f public schools the transition would be more difficult or those who currently enjoy a close relationship with heir local districts through use of materials articipation in some activities, and evaluation, ducational opportunity would diminish This is especially rue for the home schoolers who live in remote areas where hey do not have the advantage of home school ooperatives

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Lastly, the state initiatives toward standards quality and accountability are abandoned

'here's no guarantee that the supervisor is competent to

:each or evaluate This is especially essential in lisciplmes such as math and science where it is unlikely hat anyone without a high school diploma could effectively

.each the necessary concepts

Courses can be combined without any concern or loss of content or depth of study Without any

Locumentation of a student's work there are no assurances

.hat content and performance are sufficient to declare any itudent a legitimate high school graduate with all the

•ights privileges and benefits

After all the time and study and money that

Las been spent to put in place a system of accountability hrough established standards and regular assessment this nil ignores them all With renewed emphasis on the uccess of every child at the state and federal level, it s appropriate that all home education programs be subject o some level of monitoring and compliance with academic rmciples Therefore, PSBA opposes House Bill 2560 as xitten

All of us here today share a view of the mportance of education which gives us a passion for uality education It's the unspoken connection we all

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hare Thank you for the opportunity to provide these omments, and I'll be happy to try to answer any questions

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Thank you We'll have uestions then later Our third presenter a staff member rom the National Home School Legal Defense Association

MR KLICKA Thank you kindly My name is hris Klicka, and I'm senior counsel at the Home School

.egal Defense Association I've been working there since

985 And Pennsylvania has been one of my states that I ave worked the most in of any other state with legal assies and lots of problems with school officials applying he law in an improper way

I've handled well over 6 500 conflicts over he years Our office has handled over 1 000 conflicts ust in the state of Pennsylvania I also was the ttorney one of the attorneys involved in Jeffery versus

'Donnell, which was the federal case that ruled the first ersion of the law to be vague and unconstitutional which as replaced by the version of the law that we're faced ith now

The huge majority of families that are here oday and myself are here for one reason and one reason nly and that is freedom

(Applause )

MR KLICKA The panelists before me indicated

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hat they were there to help the parents And I appreciate heir intent But our message to you is we don't need heir help We believe that parents can be trusted The arents have proven themselves and have earned the right to ave less restrictions on their freedoms the very estrictions that get in the way of them educating their hildren and waste much time and effort

H B 2560 will eliminate these burdensome equirements that are imposed by the school districts on amilies through this law Over the past 14 years as I aid, we have been very, very active in Pennsylvania It's

-een one of our worst states

Our files are the largest in for the work hat we've had to do in Pennsylvania just to protect nnocent families from being able to teach their children t home without without all the hassle that they've been aced with

For example last year, HSLDA assisted a other who was being required by the Antietam School istrict to file a criminal history record before she could ven teach her own children William Penn School District isapproves all filings for home education programs after ugust 1st even though the statute permits a program to egin at any time during the school year

One of the worst polices comes out of

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arbondale Area School District They require all parents ust meet with the superintendent and convince him that hey are capable of teaching their children And the chool district says they reserve the right to have the hild evaluated by a psychologist a public school official ust be permitted to enter each family's home to monitor nd access the instruction and the home education program ay be terminated by the district at any time for any eason

In Bethlehem Area School District a family ubmitted an affidavit that was attempting to withdraw heir son from public school But they were informed that he student would have to remain in public school until his ome education was approved by school officials The chool district gave no indication of when that approval ould take place

In Mechanicsburg Area School District a amily filed a notified, filed their affidavit prior to eginning home instruction Immediately upon receiving the ffidavit the superintendent demanded that the family ubmit a portfolio of the child's academic instruction in ust 15 days

The law has no such requirement unless there s appropriate education is not occurring or you do it at he end of the year This family hadn't even started home

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choolmg yet and they were already demanding a portfolio

A school district in Philadelphia dictated to

. family what grade level the child had to be taught, which s not their prerogative I've attached a handout called

Ixamples of Arbitrary Enforcement of Current Pennsylvania ome School law And these are true stories

It just gives you a sample of the many, many roblems that we're faced with because of this law And it ocuments problems in Punxsutawney Littlestown, Fairview chool District Bangor Wyalusing Central York School istrict, and many others

We just recently won a case for a single mom ho was teaching her special needs child with great uccess And the reason we were in court again reflects he arbitrary enforcement of this law that I believe this aw opens the door for these 501 school officials in the

01 school districts to abuse

And all she did was, according to the upermtendent omitted a paragraph in her information that he submitted And he asked her to submit an amended ffidavit He said he was going on vacation She went head and filed it within a few days And he came back rom vacation and said everything's in order

So the principal meanwhile filed, had charges lied against her She ended up in criminal court because

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f those 5 days in between her original one where she had a issing paragraph and her and when she filed her amended ne This is ridiculous We had to go before the court

The court ended up ruling in favor of the chool district on this picayunish problem And then when t went to trial de novo at the next level the prosecutor ecided to drop the whole thing because he realized that fter much communication with him, that you know this is ust a silly technicality

Another point I want to make sure that the anel understands is that regulation and accountability to overnment does not make better home school students Dr nan Ray will be presenting some good information from a ationwide perspective of how home schoolers in states that re highly regulated versus home schoolers that are in tates that aren't regulated at all equally do above verage on the average

And so more regulation, as these panelists efore me have indicated does not, the facts does not show hat this at all makes better students Here with this new ill H B 2560 we get a breath of fresh air because this rotects parental rights parental liberty

And as a constitutional law attorney I nderstand and appreciate how important this is We have he 14th Amendment of our US Constitution that guarantees

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.iberty for all This includes, according to the US lupreme Court fundamental right of parents to direct the

:ducation and upbringing of their children This is backed ip by Wisconsin versus Yoder Pierce versus society of listers

One case that kind of summarizes the concerns hat I think have been expressed by the panelists before me iut yet understands we have to balance this with parental

'ights says that some parents may at times be acting gainst the interests of their children This is US upreme Court in the Parham case

Some parents may at times be acting against he interests of their children It creates a basis for aution but is hardly a reason to discard wholesale those iages of human experience that teach that parents generally

.o act in the child's best interest The status notion hat the government power should supercede parental uthority in all cases because some parents abuse and eglect children is repugnant to the American tradition

And as early as -- as recent as the year 2000 he US Supreme Court ruled again in Troxel versus Granville nd said there's a legal presumption that parents act m he best interest of the children This applies to all arents The fundamental right to direct the education of hildren is protected in House Bill 2560

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I don't belxeve it's very well protected in ur current law in light of just a sampling of the abuses

've given you And I can give you scores and scores of ore abuses where parents' rights are being trampled hey're being ignored

The school officials are letting them know hat they're in charge the bureaucracy is in charge and hat they know what's best for the children This is not he case The parents know what's best The US Supreme ourt has understood that

And I just applaud all the efforts to get this ill through because I think this will fit the historical oundations of Pennsylvania of its very beginnings of rotecting basic individual liberties And there's 2 ways o deal with an issue You can go the way of regulation nd you can go the way of freedom

The present law goes the way of regulation t takes away everybody's freedom so that that they can et certain information and maybe prevent some people from busing their children in some way But the framers have lways stood for the other side the way of freedom And hat is you have laws that require kids to attend school nd get an education

And if they aren't fulfilling this you can ather evidence and then you prosecute And you're

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 32

onsidered innocent until proven guilty Here in ennsylvania, you're basically guilty until you can prove ourself innocent through all these many many regulations nd requirements

So I think it's so crucial that Pennsylvania et in step with the nationwide trend to deregulate home ducators that we see all across the country The only tate that is really at the level of regulation as ennsylvania is the state of New York and they're on the erge of changing their law

I was just -- I've been up there and working ith them The home schoolers are crying out for liberty here as well But the -- I've given you a, for the ommittee, a document called Home Schooling in the United tates And it might still be in the box over there

But this is a summary of the 50 state laws so hat you can see how Pennsylvania fits or doesn't fit in ith the trend across the country We've had -- just in he last few years, we've had Oregon they dropped most of heir requirements including annual testing

The evidence introduced in support of the bill howed that home schoolers were spending $250,000 per year o purchase tests and an average of only 2 children per ear were falling below Oregon's cutoff score Spending

125 000 to find one failing child was simply not

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 33

ost-effective and they abandoned it

Arkansas abandoned it Alaska, Arizona, evada just in the last few years they've all gone and ecided --

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Excuse me Try to keep t --

MR KLICKA Yes sir And so in conclusion ennsylvania, I gave you a lot of good information on how ennsylvania has so many more requirements than most of the tates across the country that home schooling is thriving ome schoolers are getting into Harvard, Princeton, Yale, tanford, all the major universities And they're coming rom all 50 states And Pennsylvania home schoolers have o edge So the regulations here have not created better ome school graduates

The last part of my testimony I'm not going to o over but it's simply for your review I have -- the ast 3 pages or so just deal with the objections to this ill And I explain how these objections and concerns eally are not valid

But I believe that this bill will protect arents' rights, maximize parents' rights They'll stop he arbitrary enforcement and harassment that's taking lace that everybody in this room knows about And I think hat Pennsylvania needs to join with the other states and

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 34

love towards trusting the parents in deregulating this

.his vital freedom Thank you very much

(Applause )

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Thank you Mr Klicka I

:now you had more information to share with us but you can fet that to us And I remind the audience again that today

.s going to be testimony presented that you like and some rou don't like And I would appreciate you listening ntently and quietly, please If you would honor that

•equest Thank you

Our next presenter the National Home School research Institute

DR RAY Thank you Mr Stairs and your

:olleagues Thank you for inviting me from 3 000 miles

Lway m a sister city that at least rivals the beauty of

[arrisburg Salem Oregon I've been doing research on

Lome schooling and following research on home schooling for

.bout 18 years

I've been a classroom teacher in both public chools and private schools private and state niversities teaching graduate level courses in tatistics research methodology, education and science

.nd my resume' is attached You can have a sense of where

'm coming from in terms of understanding the research on

.ome schooling My main goal today is to tell you about

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 35

:he research and what that could do to inform you about louse Bill 2560

First of all, home educators in Pennsylvania md across the nation have consistently shown remarkable success both in academic achievement and other measures

:uch as social and emotional adjustment Typically in icademic achievement home school students score 15 to 3 0

>ercentile points above the national average I think a

.ot of people are aware of that But that's not the main ioint of what I'm talking about today

Secondly, research on education in general ihows that in public schools, private schools, and probably

.n home schooling one of the key if not the key element n terms of children's success is parental involvement jid that's what researchers are finding more and more and lore

And as you can infer home schooling is the ipitome of parental involvement And I think that whatever

. state can do to encourage parental involvement actually ncreases learning So it would be good to do whatever you an to help parents who home school their children to be nvolved in their children's lives

Now, the third point is getting to the area of esearch on home schooling academic achievement and state egulation or control of home school families The

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 36

esearch that we have to date -- and there's -- I think t's on page 3 of your handout that I brought -- shows us ery clearly that there is no relationship between the overnment control of home schooling and home school tudents' scores in terms of academic achievement

If you look at the first layout it's just a ery rough synthesis It's very difficult to do what's ailed a metanalysis in social science research, especially ome schooling But this is just a real rough ategorization of all the state-specific studies of which I now showing you the high state control, medium state ontrol and low state control

As you look at those scores even if you know othmg hardly at all about statistical tests like T tests nd pie squared, you can see a pattern And the pattern is here's no pattern In other words, whether it's high egulation by the state medium regulation by the state or ow regulation by the state they're all scoring above verage and there's no significant difference between their cores

If you look at the nationwide study that I id conducted and published m 1997 -- and it's also been ublished m the Peabody Journal of Education --we took

11 50 states of the Union and looked at the high, medium nd low regulation states and found there was no

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 37

ignificant difference, no statistically significant ifference not even a qualitative difference

And basically they're all doing about the ame regardless of the control by the government Now the uestion is Well what does this have to do with anything7 ell we would hope that facts and research affects how we ake policy You'll notice that there's not even what's ailed a correlation There's not even a mathematical attern

You have to have at least a mathematical attern a correlation before you can talk about cause and ffect We don't even have a correlation here There's no ay to talk about a cause and effect relationship in the ense of does regulation increase/decrease home school tudents' scores'7 So I don't know if I can make that any learer

Let me go on to another piece of research that s rather fascinating and is related in a way to this bill hat's before you Research by Dr Jay P Greene said uote Academic achievement in public schools is positively orrelated with educational freedom close quote

He did a major analysis using federally funded ata from the NAEP N-A-E-P Interestingly -- this is a elatively new study -- one of the elements in his variable ailed educational freedom is the amount that a state

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 38

:ontrols home schoolers

In essence then what he found is the less hat the state controls home schoolers the higher is the cademic achievement of public school students That's

.ot -- this is a very fascinating concept that there is a

'elationship between the lower government controlled home ichooling and higher public school achievement I've cited he study You can go look at it yourself on the Internet

I'm watching the time here The next main

>omt related to research is the professional standards of iocial science, educational and psychological research and leasurement and evaluation make it clear that neither

'esearchers nor policymakers should use empirical

•elationships that are either absent or methodologically enuous to maintain or create control over persons' lives

In other words if you look at the standards if the American Psychological Association and other irofessional researchers and so forth, research should iresent clear and compelling evidence of at least some orrelation and more definitely cause and effect elationship before policymakers use it to create or laintain regulations or law that control people In this

;ase home schooling

And even if research shows correlation or ausation, then ethics and philosophy of course follows

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 39

hat But in this case research on home schooling 22

•ears of research on home schooling by a number of leople --me being one of them -- finds no not even a

:orrelation

Now in summary then -- and there other points

won't talk about here because I'm watching the time -- to his point if you even look at debates within public ichools and private schools let alone home schooling here is considerable debate about whether academic

.enlevement tests measure what is truly of importance It s one measure of academic achievement, right7 It's only me measure

Whether achievement tests measure what's valid s a big debate And even if you could argue that the

.cademic achievement test scores measure what's of mportance then you've got to look at the methodology of

•esearch Now, someone may argue Well, Dr Ray, the

'esearch methodology on home school research controlled by he government is not the strictest or the tightest That ay be true but it's the best that we have

What we do know is even if this might not be he tightest or strictest you can do it shows no elationship There is no correlation let alone any hint f cause and effect

So finally then all things considered and

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 40

specially sxnce there's no positive proof, there's no vidence that controlled regulation by the government has ver significantly increased children's learning in home chooling it makes no sense to assume that such has been s or will ever be the case from a research perspective

In fact, due to the lack of correlational vidence let alone cause and effect evidence, any person r group whether it's state government, whether it's a olicymaker whether it's some private business that ervices home schooling whether it's some public school mployee or personnel or parent, anybody who promotes the amtenance or increase of regulation and control over home chooling bears a heavy burden of proof when it comes to esearch

And there is not one shred of evidence that hat proof exists Therefore I would say that from what I an see the research is very clear that reducing control ver parents makes a lot of sense Thank you very much

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Thank you Dr Ray

(Applause )

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Before we start to ask uestions I know some of our members may have come in mce we made our introductions So maybe I can start on y left And if there's any members who have come in and id not get a chance to introduce themselves, they can do

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 41

hat at this time

REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND Representative

'haddeus Kirkland Delaware County hoarse

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER Representative Jere chuler Lancaster County

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS All members have a chance o introduce themselves7 Okay Thank you I know the lembers have some questions And I'm going to just begin rith one thought It may not be a question but just omethmg to think about and the panelists may respond to t

Just in the last several months the federal overnment has enacted legislation that I think we all

.eard of No Child Left Behind And it tends to put more

.ccountability among other things onto our local our

'ublic schools

And certainly, this legislation would ertamly have less accountability initially as I look at t How do you -- maybe all 4 panelists would like to take

stab at this How do they look at that and see where his legislation would be7 And maybe a comment on that on hat thought

MR KLICKA I work on Capitol Hill in

'ashington D C And I worked on that bill quite a bit

.nd the purpose of that No Child Left Behind is to hold the

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 42

tates accountable for the tax dollars that they're eceiving from the feds

And so it's primarily you know, just ccountability to the state that they're using the money in n effective way that's causing results in the public chools Home schoolers and private schools, there's everal exemptions where they're completely exempt from hat piece of legislation

So it's a -- there's a different standard when ou're dealing with public funds and accountability with hem So that's that's my comment on that

MS GROFF I would disagree in that the pint of that bill comes out of the belief that we must ake sure that no child is left behind The vehicle they ay use is the funding and the testing But there's no oubt in my mind that there is an attitude nationwide that oo many children are falling through the cracks

It's not a condemnation of any particular ystem of education right now be it public or private or ome schooling Most of these home schools no one's uestionmg the results What we're concerned about is reating a haven where we could lose children

I just do not see where making sure that verythmg stays as good as it is is harming anyone And he protections it affords are something that you can't

. . . JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 43

lake up afterwards

(Applause )

DR SAYLOR I would just add one comment to rhat Mr Klicka said He's absolutely correct No Child ieft Behind sets up 2 separate sets of standards

DR RAY I think from a research perspective hat you can see is that oftentimes policies are made and aws are passed without any research to support them That

.appens at the federal level, and it happens at the state evel, and it happens at the local level

So you can get somebody going philosophically nd I think that's exactly what it is It's a hilosophical issue Clearly when tax dollars are nvolved there has to be accountability Everybody agrees

'ith that I mean, all citizens want to know where their ax dollars are spent

When you look at education in a historical erspective I think something that this committee needs to eep in mind is that when a parent does not put his or her hildren in the state-run schools then the children are ot there And that's what we have traditionally in our ation

And when children are private school students, hey're under the authority of their parents and the rivate school They're not under the authority of the

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 44

tate when it comes to trying to find In a sense what ome people philosophically and what I hear here with some f the panelists is a philosophical desire to use a dragnet pproach to try to root out things such as child abuse or rying to control how parents take care of special needs hildren

That's not the philosophy of American history n terms of the liberty of people when they do not put heir children in the government schools And I think that ould be the clearest answer regarding this issue

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Yes Thank you epresentative Colafella has a question

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA Thank you Thank ou, Mr Chairman I have a question, just one question ecause I've got to run to a meeting back home How do you lew the statement in our Pennsylvania Constitution which imply says the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is responsible or a thorough and for conducting a thorough and efficient ystem of education7

How do you, how do you view that statement hich is in our constitution7 What is our role supposed to e?

DR RAY I'm not a legal scholar But as

've looked at many different constitutions m education t sounds to me that for example in Oregon that means

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 45

rou provide a system that's available if people choose it f the people do not choose the tax funded system they

Ion't choose it It's very simple

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA So for example we landate a seat belt law in Pennsylvania If people don't rant to adhere to the seat belt law they just totally gnore it

DR RAY No, that's totally different The itate of Pennsylvania, the Commonwealth as far as I mderstand does not compel all children to attend tax unded schools That's a very significant difference letween a seat belt law and a law that would say all ihildren must attend tax funded schools

You don't have that law here That was thrown

»ut by the Supreme Court case in Wisconsin versus Yoder and

'lerce versus Society of Sisters, you know over 75 years go So there's no compulsion to participate in overnment-controlled schools That's a very big

.if f erence

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA Do we not have a ompulsory age law --

DR RAY Pardon me7

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA -- to go to school?

DR RAY No I'm trying to distinguish etween compelling a child to attend a tax funded school

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 46

ersus compelling people to wear seat belts There's a big

.ifference there philosophically And there's no law that ompels children to attend state-controlled schools

Like in a private school, when a child goes o private schools, he's not under the rules of the public chool system

MR KLICKA And I can add to that that there s a responsibility of the Commonwealth to make sure hildren are being educated The question is How does ine how does the state fulfill that responsibility7 As I howed you you know 90 percent of the states are choosing o go the route of deregulating and balancing that parental reedom on the one hand and government control and

•esponsibility on the other And that's that's the bottom ine

The Pennsylvania Constitution provides as a equirement, the Commonwealth provides for an education ike Dr Ray was saying But they also balance it with the ree exercise of religion and parental rights Parents can hoose not to use the tax funded system but they can do it rivately That's what home schooling is It's you know rivate education

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS I'm going to go through he list of -- Representative Kirkland

REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND Thank you Thank

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 47

ou, Mr Chairman Mr Klicka, I was impressed with your resentation concerning the students that you talked about ho went on to Yale Princeton, Harvard and those other restigious universities

I guess my concern is if they've done so well nder current law, why are we changing it now7 If it's not roke why are we fixing it9

MR KLICKA My comment on that was not mphasizmg that these were Pennsylvania home schoolers hat were getting into these places but these were students rom other states that had no regulation whatsoever where here was simply -- like Texas, California

In fact I have a handout, which I didn't have or everybody But it's probably in the box there But t's for the committee Home Schooled Students Excel in ollege And we document these students and how they're etting accepted into those universities and in fact all a]or state universities

And the Pennsylvania home schoolers that have een accepted to universities all across the country aven't had any one-up on the Arizona home schoolers where hey're not regulated and they just file a notification, or he Michigan home schoolers where they don't even have to lie a notification the Texas home schoolers where they on't have to file notification Montana Missouri

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 48

ississippi

In other words all these kids are getting nto the higher education and getting into these other niversities I might make mention that home schoolers on he average, according to ACT and SAT college entrance xams are scoring above average

Again it doesn't make any difference what tate they're from They're all doing well

REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND Just one other uestion Mr Chairman That is I hear this term ducational freedom Are we suggesting today that all arents who choose to home school their children current nd future currently and in the future are capable of ducatmg their kids by way of math and science and nglish7 Are we suggesting that9

MR KLICKA Home schooling is not for verybody, but it is for anybody And I believe any arent when they apply themselves, will do a good job nd we've got --in fact this study that I passed out to verybody on home school achievement, it shows that even arents with less than a high school diploma their kids, n the average are scoring near the same level as the arents who have certain teaching certificates

So yes I guess the answer to the question is

believe that all parents should be given the opportunity

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 49

f they so choose And the statistics are bearing out that t really, really works because of the one-on-one nstruction the, you know it's a small class size the isciplined environment you know they've got the good ood textbooks because there's just tremendous books and nternet and technology available

When you have those combination and then arents loving the kids that's going to be successful ducation anywhere you look at it So that's what home choolmg's captured So I think any family can do it nd if the family isn't doing it with the present bill if his was to take effect they could still be pursued under he compulsory attendance law

The only difference is instead of the way of egulation where the school districts can arbitrarily go hrough the data on a routine basis they would have to ork a little harder and they'd have to have some evidence ou know, a neighbor or some witness that says these kids ren't being educated That's what they do in most of the ther states and it works very effectively

DR RAY One way to I think make this impler when we're talking about education sometimes our inds all of a sudden shift and think differently With arents we do not have a law that says we're going to heck in on them on a quarterly basis to make sure they're

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 50

eedxng their children properly to make sure the children re not getting overweight an obese or drinking too much affeine in the morning

We assume that they have the best interests in ind And then if we have evidence that they're doing rong to their children then we check on them It's he same kind of thing when you talk about education And e -- again, we find in research like Mr Klicka talked bout -- I've been doing the research for 18 years And it oesn't matter what state you look at Somebody might make

claim to you Representative Kirkland that one state has lgher scores because children are in a particular program r something, home school

But the question always is Tell us if you an give a representative sample is this just from your rogram or is this from your whole state9 And I think ou'll find that if you look at all of the states together hether high medium, or low regulation, you're not going o find a significant difference in terms of whether they et into Harvard or whether they get into MIT or whether hey decide to be a plumber

It's basically the same in every state because arents care about their children And when there's vidence that they're not getting an education then by the ompulsory education law somebody can check on them

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 51

REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND Thank you Mr lhairman

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Thank you Next representative Bastian

REPRESENTATIVE BASTIAN Thank you Mr lhairman Question for Dr Carol Saylor And I'll preface ly question by saying I'm a cosponsor of 2560 a randparent of 3 children who are here today that are home chooled You make a quotation, "The overwhelming majority

'f home school families that I deal with are conscientious nd committed " What percent would that be7

DR SAYLOR Ninety-nine percent

REPRESENTATIVE BASTIAN Ninety-nine percent he other question then is, How many of your families who end kids to regular school are conscientious and ommitted, what percentage7

DR SAYLOR Probably not that high

REPRESENTATIVE BASTIAN Thank you

(Applause )

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Mundy

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Thank you, Mr hairman I have a question for the panel And this may e best answered by the folks from the schools We have a ompulsory attendance law How would your school district nforce that law if there was no notification that a parent

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 52

ras home schooling their child?

In other words would you feel compelled to

'isit the home perhaps more often to make sure that the

;hild was -- I mean, how would you fulfill your esponsibilities to that law if there was no notification hat a parent was home schooling and no further requirement bout reporting anything to the district7

DR SAYLOR I'll speak very specifically bout Manheim Central And I assume that that's pretty ypical If we did not have an affidavit from a parent hat they were home schooling and a child did not show up he first day of school our first step would be to make a hone call home and to ask where the child was

If we did not get any kind of a response to a hone call, the next step would be a home visit Our chool social worker would be sent out to verify that the amily was indeed still in the district and to find out hat the status of the child was

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Well that's under the urrent law

DR SAYLOR That's correct

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY I'm asking respectively should this House Bill 2560 pass how would ou foresee your responsibility to the school compulsory, he compulsory school law7 I mean I'm concerned that the

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 53

istricts may end up being more intrusive into the lives of ome schoolers because they don't know they have no ontact and no response -- you know they still have a esponsibility to the compulsory school law They still ave truant officers

DR SAYLOR We would follow the same rocedure we're currently following So you're right If e did not have affidavits from those 200 home schoolers e would be sending someone out to find out where those ids were

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY And how often would you e doing that because -- would you only be doing that in he beginning of the year7

DR SAYLOR An excellent question I can't nswer your question I don't know how we would meet our equirement in terms of do we have to go out monthly to ake sure that they're still home schooling since we don't ave that affidavit I can't answer that I don't know

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Well you not only on't have the affidavit you don't have any of the other nformation about what the child's doing in school or any f that I mean I'm --

DR SAYLOR Your point is well taken in that t could easily be more intrusive than it is currently

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Yes

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 54

MR KLICKA The bill does require otification So at least they would know that they were ome schooling And unless they had -- unless the school istrict had evidence that they weren't home schooling here would be no need for any visits or anything They'd till be fulfilling their responsibility

So the difference would just be now the home choolers would be presumed innocent you know until they ot evidence that they were guilty rather than the home chool families actively trying to always prove themselves nnocent So there wouldn't be more work on the school istrict There would be far less

And it would be far less invasive on the amilies too They would only have to send out a truant fficer when they got you know a witness called up and aid Hey these kids you know, this family's lying to ou

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Who would know that ther than the family9

MR KLICKA Neighbors relatives We get amilies in trouble all the time through those people So, ou know, just maybe store owners when kids are hanging out n the street corner whatever You know many different venues It would be the same way that the police find out ho's using drugs or who's not

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 55

You know they've got no constant regulatory irocess to make people in the neighborhoods periodically do

.nnalysis but they do get evidence And people would be iutraged if they had to do that And I think the home choolers in the audience here feel the same is that they eel offended that they have to always prove themselves ach year that they're good conscientious parents which ou know, has been testified to that they are

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Well I don't think the ssue is whether they're good and conscientious parents I hink that the issue is whether they're good and onscientious educators And we do have a compulsory chool law And it ]ust seems to me that if I were a chool superintendent and I felt a duty to enforce that aw, which is my responsibility and had as little versight as I would have under this bill I would be oncerned that I would be in violation of the law

Now, perhaps you're suggesting that we simply o away with the compulsory school law Now, that would ake some sense

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY Just if you want to go o school, you go to school If you don't want to go to chool you don't have to go to school And it's really he parents' responsibility one way or the other But at

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 56

east the school district wouldn't be, have a esponsibility that it couldn't meet

MR KLICKA Of the 50 states, all of them ave compulsory attendance laws and less than half require ny kind of testing or monitoring And it works very well nd m Pennsylvania with this bill when it goes through hen then that's the responsibility of the superintendents hat the legislature has dictated

And so as long as they're collecting the otifications and the notifications are in order, the amily's presumed innocent And that's really the American ay That's the way our country was founded to believe in he individual and to protect individual liberties

But if they blow it then you throw the book t them and you deal with it But it's based on probable ause It's based on evidence that they're breaking the aw and they're criminals But otherwise, we assume verybody in this room is innocent and that nobody has to lie --

DR RAY May I add, too on the question f -- again the research -- and Mr Klicka mentioned this

mentioned it earlier We have 50 different states with

0 different laws Numerous of them have little to no ontrol, Alaska Oklahoma You can go on with the list

And not only do I find in the research that it

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 57

akes no difference -- and I've gone over that numerous lmes -- but I also have interacted with hundreds maybe housands of home schoolers around the country I don't go ooking for the conscientious ones I just run into them nd talk to people

And I would have to say literally I can't ring to mind one whose child wasn't at least learning how o read your basic math, and write a simple essay Now ou might say Well we want more than that But the point s is without notification, without control without egulations these parents do what they can do And it's n extremely high rate

So the question then arises How much energy lme, money do you want to put into trying to somehow catch he one9 To me it doesn't make very much sense

REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY I guess from my erspective as someone who through the constitution is harged with maintaining a thorough and efficient system of ublic education -- and we do have a compulsory school law hich by the way I would not be in favor of eliminating scause it would seem to me that a lot of parents who I've ad contact with who are not home schoolers but who have sry little interest in their children whether they attend

~hool or not who are involved with Children and Youth,

DU know those are the kids that I worry about in terms of

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 58

heir education

And it seems to me the Commonwealth does have n interest in those children and their futures I don't hmk we're really talking about the people in this room

think we're talking about people who might take advantage

>f deregulation of a public system that we currently laintain

And I don't think anybody's saying that we hould regulate home schooling to the extent that we

:urrently do But I think this bill goes way beyond, way ieyond what we should be doing in terms of maintaining a

'ublic system of education

And by the way, as far back as George

'ashmgton, that system of public education was not only cknowledged but encouraged So the Founding Fathers were ery strong on a system of public education -- please I'm ot asking a question You had your say

The Founding Fathers and the Constitution oth of the United States and of Pennsylvania are strong n the issue of the interest of society in an educated opulous Democracy doesn't work without an educated opulous And our prisons are filled with uneducated eople

AUDIENCE MEMBER And they were all public chools The public school system is a failure

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 59

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS I know we have people we ant to hear and we don't want to hear but let's maintain espect for them Our next Representative Representative leagle

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Thank you, Mr hairman Mr Klicka I want to stress a point you made in our testimony And I think I think you said something ike this is an issue of freedom versus regulation And hilosophically that's an issue that we deal with every ay not only with home schooling laws any kind of ducation laws but it was brought up about the seat belts nd that type of issue And frankly, I take the stand that ou're an idiot if you don't wear a seat belt but I don't hmk I should tell you to wear a seat belt But that's a ifferent philosophy I guess

Representative Bastian mentioned about ercentages, and I think Representative Kirkland also did

am very concerned about spending 95 percent of our esources on perhaps 2 percent of our problems And I uess -- and I'd ask you this, Mr Klicka

And I know you don't speak for the public chool side And they're welcome to respond to this But ssume that a child can't read at the 4th grade level and hey are capable of learning that Assume they can't read t the 4th grade level when they're 18 years old

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 60

You had mentioned that there are some ways

.hat parents can be held accountable even if 2560 would be teld or would be passed Could you reiterate those? And

.lso, if you could, what would a public school system do if

L child couldn't read at the 4th grade level by the time hey're 18?

MR KLICKA Well right now the statistics ihow that there's 45 million functioning illiterates in our

!Ountry And we know that a large portion of them maybe tot, maybe almost all of them, came through the public chool system And right now in the courts there is no heory of law that you can use to sue for educational lalpractice

So the public schools are protected from that nd so if a parent does their you know duty uote/unquote sends their child to public school, their esponsibility ends whether that child ends up only reading t a 4th grade level by the time they graduate And then he public schools are also left off the hook

In the home school setting, on the other hand fa if a child is not reading at the 4th grade level, I iean is only reading at the 4th grade level and he' s a igh schooler or whatever and there's evidence of that a eighbor, relative and all the different ways that there s they can turn that family in and that family could be

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 61

uccessfully prosecuted for violating this new bill

So in a sense, home schoolers are held to a agher standard than the --

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE So when we talk about o child being left behind really home schooling is held o a higher accountability even with House Bill 2560 in lace or it would be is that correct7

MR KLICKA I believe so because, like I aid, you can go after them The public schools are lmited to just whether or not the child's physically ocated at the school each day, not, you know how he's emg educated

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Thank you Thank ou, Mr Chairman

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Roebuck

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK Thank you Mr hairman I wanted to focus on the comments that were made y Mr Klicka in terms of burdensome requirements articularly as the impact on issues of health and safety f children And I'm curious how a requirement that a hild be, receive immunizations is burdensome to a parent f they home school

This bill proposes to get rid of those kinds f requirements How is that burdensome9

MR KLICKA It doesn't get rid of the

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equirement of being immunized It just gets rid of them aving to provide evidence that they are

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK Well, what's the ifference7 I'm a bit dense here If you don't have to do omethmg, you don't have to do it

MR KLICKA Well, you know it's like I'm ot I'm not supposed to steal And I mean the law rohibits that But I don't have to prove you know, each eek that I'm not stealing or anything like that If they ind evidence that I am, they come against me If they ind evidence that a family has not immunized a child the amily does have a way out in Pennsylvania

There is an exemption that they can use, a eligious exemption And I would say that the home school ommunity maybe 75 percent believe you know, in mmunizations And -- or it's probably less than that that on't believe in immunizations

And they would invoke the statutory right they ave in Pennsylvania to be exempt from immunizations based n religious convictions So it's an honor system you now, bottom line

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK But if that's true or home schoolers why not for everyone then' Why don't e just abandon the entire concept for all kids'3

MR KLICKA Well, I'm not a doctor But I do

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 63

now that when you have kids exchanging saliva and germs nd that sort of thing on a regular basis in a large, you now, large groups, that the there's a whole much higher lsk of spreading and that kind of thing versus child in a ome that is not exposed to those kinds of things

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK But then you're ssummg that these kids never come m contact with other ids

MR KLICKA No, they do come in contact with ther kids And like I said even in public school, a amily could evoke a religious exemption And there will e kids who aren't immunized in the public school But I'm ust saying it's a higher risk in the public school in lght of the constant contact

Home schoolers are in contact with kids but ot even close to the level in the public schools where the lsk is much higher But again they can be exempted from hat even if they're public school students

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK You've alluded to nother thing that concerns me about the language in this ill And it deals with the whole area of religious belief n that there is language, at least in Section C on page

1, that says that a parent or guardian might exclude from heir curriculum any concept topic or practice consistent ith a parent or guardian or custodian's religious beliefs

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 64

I'm enough of a historian to know that

•eligious belief is a very broad category Religious

»elief was once used to justify slavery in this country religious belief continues to be used as a way to justify liscrimmation

Are we saying then that this is an okay tandard for a teacher of children to in fact base a eachmg that might choose to, found that if it is a eligious belief or whatever, to teach discrimination or

'hatever as a standard for their educational behavior?

MR KLICKA I believe that a family that eaches that, it would be wrong for sure But I don't ielieve it's a government-regulated area And it's because if again our framers' foresight on the whole area of our

'irst Amendment the right to freely exercise your eligious beliefs

So parents and individuals are free to believe

'hat they want to and to teach and to speak freedom of peech So that's, that's why that's in there because it's ust it comes out of the First Amendment Plus many of he other states use that same -- it's kind of boilerplate anguage

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK But this says this ays that kids cannot even be exposed to an alternative lew This doesn't say religious belief It's that

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here's no obligation to expose that young person to an lternative view

MR KLICKA Right There's no obligation for

child to be exposed to any particular views Some people hmk homosexuality is good I don't

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK That's not lscrimmation That's not racial discrimination

MR KLICKA Well it's in the area of lscrimmation

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK It is discrimination es

MR KLICKA Now it is yeah But racial lscrimmation is wrong And about the only way you can aybe stop that is if you passed a law forbidding anybody rom believing practicing, teaching you know I suppose ou could do that But right now, the current law doesn't he current home school law doesn't prevent that

And I don't know of any cases of any families ver doing that, any home school families If you have ome information --

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK I will certainly be lad to share with you those evidence I'm aware of eligious beliefs being used to justify racial lscrimmation I think we're both aware of those

DR RAY May I respond to that' I think a

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elpful way Representative Roebuck to think about this ometimes -- because this gets into very, you know the ore of the philosophy of education And one -- sometimes t's very helpful to think about these questions with espect to private schools

And private schools pretty much throughout the ation are not required to expose or not to expose certain hings And I think that, as I mentioned earlier istorically and philosophically if people do not put heir children in the state-controlled schools, then hey're not there

It's the same thing in private schools We an no more, in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania tell all he people that they're not allowed to go to private chools than we can say you can't teach what you want to each them It would be the same kind of thing

So it may be something we despise an idea we espise, but they're still allowed to talk about it

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK But it seems to me f I accept your argument, that there's a very deeply oncerning principle that we're writing into this law that ays that if you justified in terms of religious belief hat that gives credibility And that's what I see is angerous in the language that's written here

DR RAY Well I guess all I'm saying is that

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don't know your laws regarding private schools But I ave a hunch that they can teach there pretty much what hey want to teach And you would have to go in and change he laws regarding private schools, too

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK My knowledge is that e don't regulate the private schools But this pecifically writes a regulation for home schoolers that ets down a principle that's very different from what ou're saying here That's what I have trouble with

DR RAY Are you talking about Section C7

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK Section C

DR RAY That basically sounds to me like hey're recognizing constitutional rights They can teach hat they want according to religious beliefs It's ^ust ecognizmg it That's all I see there

REPRESENTATIVE ROEBUCK Thank you

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Steelman

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Thank you Mr hairman A very collaborative system here Most of my uestions -- and I'll try to limit them in view of the lme -- are for Dr Saylor and Ms Groff Dr Saylor you entioned in your testimony that it takes considerable time o go through the portfolios at the end of the year and rovide the feedback

And I was wondering if you could give us some

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 68

dea of how many of the portfolios are rejected how many lmes do you does your faculty feel that it is necessary o confer with parents because they don't see things going n a reasonable direction7

What's the cost relative to the benefit here9 ow many -- what's happening7

DR SAYLOR And again, I'll speak pecifically for my school district My assistant is the ne who would be delighted if this bill were to go through ecause he's the one who spends the whole month of June in ur board room with 2 00 portfolios spread out in front of

1m going through those

So basically it takes his time for a month to o through them In terms of the other question How many f them do we find lacking in a particular area7 I would ay that since I've been in Manheim Central which is 6 ears I don't know that we have ever said to a parent here's a major portion of the educational program that ou've missed and it's not documented in this portfolio

I think part of that reason is because they now very clearly before they start at the beginning of he year exactly what needs to be in there And they re conscientious parents, and they do want to do a good ob

When you talk about cost benefit analysis and

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 69

ou know have we found that one that wasn't doing that ne parent who wasn't doing his or her 30b of educating the hild, I can't say that we've found one And I guess I ust want to say so that it doesn't get missed there eems to be an implication that we're suggesting increased ontrol or eliminating home schooling as an option

And I want to make very clear that that ertainly is not our position We support home schooling s an option for parents and we don't want to increase any if the regulation We think what's currently in place has

>enefitted the parents of home schoolers as well as the ome schoolers and has helped us make sure that if they do hoose to come back to us at some point m time they can

.0 it with minimal disruption

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN But from what I'm earing you saying -- and unless there's some evidence from ther school districts -- that portfolios although they ay have considerable educational value and may be very seful when students are moving on to post-secondary ducation as evidence as what they've accomplished that erhaps the review of portfolios is not really ost-effective in terms of the burden that it puts on the chool districts as well as the burden on parents of ulling the portfolio together presenting it at a specific lme and place et cetera

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 70

DR SAYLOR I certainly won't disagree with

'hat you're saying I think if there is an independent valuator as stipulated in the current law who certifies hat the child has made appropriate progress for the year hat the review of the portfolio by the school district rould not be necessary

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Perhaps plunging us nto the swampland of standardized tests do you feel that ierformance on standardized national tests or on the PSSA rould be an adequate indicator of student progress7 And lso of course, the No Child Left Behind Act proposes to iroadly increase the level of testing

Are those sufficient9 Or do you feel that an iutside professional evaluator is still in some way equired, and if so why7

DR SAYLOR If we were doing the PSSA on a early basis, I would say that would be a more valid point mce we're only doing it 3 5 -- or not even 3 yet -- 5

and 9 at this point in time, there's a tremendous gap in here If there were another standardized test, Stanford

IOWA Test of Basic Skills and there is a requirement very year I think we'd have a more solid program

MS GROFF Our district does it a little

.ifferently Our portfolios come to us already evaluated

'he home schooling parents choose who they want to evaluate

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t and we get the report So we don't actually do the valuatmg They are allowed to choose whoever they find ualified and appropriate to evaluate their portfolios

At the end of the year basically we just eview to make sure that everything is in place Most of ur time is involved at the front end where we work with he home school families to set up an appropriate program o make sure that they're aware of what all the equirements are what needs to be done, that everything is ppropriately in place

So we spend more time on the front end helping hem get started than we do at the far end We're merely erifymg the paperwork, that it has been done right so hey can continue the next year I would have a problem ith a program that seems to be an after-harm attitude ike, let it go and if there's something wrong somebody ut there in the public, a neighbor or a mailman or omeone will let us know things aren't going well and omeone will go in And that may not be the school istrict We're not saying that we are the ones that have o do this What we're saying is someone does

To abandon it completely makes no sense e're not saying they're not doing a great job We're oncerned about that safety net that we make sure that veryone does a good job, that no one in the future also

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 72

buses this open system where we could lose some quality here

The standards should be the same We believe he responsibility of the state to children is for all hildren If we all have those same rights then if some f our parents don't want their students working to the tate standards that have just been established that would lve them the right to come to the school and say Well on't bother teaching this course to my child I'm not nterested in having that These are standards that aren't mportant to me So skip that Don't give my child the

SSA because they don't meet my personal educational tandards

Freedom is wonderful, and we all support it ut it's not just a flag to wave to suit the way you want hings done Sometimes as a society we simply agree that here are certain things the way they must be We're not orcing anyone to basically change what they're doing now

We just want to make sure that things continue o be as successful as they are in home schooling We nderstand the great successes But you can't compare the ublic schools, especially when looking at just average umbers with the home schoolers because it's apples and ranges They're coming from a different group of people hey're coming from very motivated parents and kids that

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 73

.re kept on task

We wish we could have all of our students come o us that way But we deal with whatever the school bus lelivers at the front door And we would love to have

;very one of our students on a one-to-one self-pace iducational program That would be superb That would eally be superb but we can't have that

So we're all dealing with the advantages and

.isadvantages of a different system I would expect xceptional results And you get them and that's only orrect We get some really good results too If ational averages say that a certain number of people are lliterate as a member of my school board I have to focus n my school

We're not graduating illiterates in my school nd we need to focus on where those schools are that are omg that That's not the issue The quality of the esult here is not the issue at all I just have concerns bout the after-harm attitude

And we're trying to make sure that people who mcerely would like to be able to home school make sure hey meet the lowest bar, in other words they cannot fall elow that without there being help available And it annot be abused I don't see where this is stopping uccess

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 74

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Do I hear you saying hen that you would you could see doing away with some of he existing language about the portfolio evaluation at the

:nd of the year but that you think it's most important to

:eep at the beginning of the process the affidavit and some

:ind of collaboration, some kind of conference at least ietween the school district of residence and the home choolmg family which, if the home schooling family has

.one a lot of home schooling elsewhere might be pro forma9

'hese are differences between the Pennsylvania standards nd the Virginia or Alaska standards This is something ou need to allow for

But you're saying that some up-front ollaboration is perhaps the most important element in lakmg sure that the home schooling process works well7

MS GROFF I think if you don't start well ou can't end well, no doubt But I'm not saying it needs o be eliminated I was just giving you an example of the

.ifference between the way our 2 districts handle it We o not actually do the evaluation

The laws as they're written now allow the arent to choose an evaluator And in our district, that's he way they do it Just sort of a matter of how anyone oes about it how they're applying that I don't think you an eliminate that no

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 75

But I do know that it doesn't matter

.ecessarily if it's the school district doing it Our oncern right now is not that we have control It's not

'ur interest in controlling the home schoolers We just rant to make sure that somebody is making sure that this ystem of education continues to go and to meet the tandards that everyone in Pennsylvania's supposed to meet

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN And I promised to lmit myself to 2 questions but the second one is also omethmg that' s been very much on my mind through the iscussion And that is the issue of students with special eeds and the fact that the bill would change the way the ome schooling special needs students is handled very rastically indeed

Does anybody have any estimates of the numbers nd varieties of special needs students who are being home chooled and how the districts of residence work with arents who are educating children whether they're hysically handicapped or mentally disabled, either motionally or intellectually or both"3

Because I have some very serious concerns bout protections for those students and trying trying ery hard to make the public schools a more welcoming place or students with disabilities And that's been a hard lght What is the situation with home schooling'5

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 76

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Before you answer that I hink just for your information there's an amendment being repared to remove that part So that will address that

DR SAYLOR Just very briefly we have very ew special needs students who are home schooled For the ost part it's very young children m the primary grades nd in those particular cases I think that that was robably the best option for those children because they ad one-on-one attention which they would not have gotten n the public setting

Almost all of ours have returned to the public ystem at the point where the parents realized that they no onger could provide things like occupational therapy hysical therapy those type of things If it's already emg addressed in an amendment, then it probably doesn't ake much sense for us to spend a lot of time on it

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Well, I have a lot ore questions But in the interest of time I will --

MR KLICKA Representative Steelman I was ust going to mention one thing, that the studies of arents with special needs kids who are home schooling hows that those kids are also like was just testified, ecause of the one-on-one attention, are doing above verage with kids with the same special needs in the chools So it's been a very effective way to help the

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 77

pecial needs children

DR RAY Quickly on the cost benefit if I ould just do a time machine real fast There's a risk ere But I'll give you an example in Oregon I'm on the dvisory committee there to the legislature on home choolmg

Oregon went from testing every year And fter something like 12 years of that the public school ystem said enough, enough, enough enough We've seen nough scores Two years ago they moved to testing the ome school children I think it's 3 or 4 grades now

And I'm predicting -- I don't get into this oo much in the research But I'm predicting in less than

years, they're going to say enough enough enough It's ot effective It's not cost-efficient And I think hey're going to go towards something like Alaska, ichigan Oklahoma because, frankly like Mr Klicka ointed out earlier, if they're not up to a certain level ou cannot really force parents to make them much higher ust like you absolutely cannot force the children to do etter in a public school or private school

So I think the cost benefit ratio if you look t history if you can zip the time machine ahead, the ublic school people in Oregon are going to say we've seen nough scores now for 20 years That's it We don't need

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 78

o do it anymore That's my prediction

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative

:cllhattan

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN Thank you, epresentative Stairs Over the past few weeks I've had he opportunity to meet personally with home schoolers cross this Commonwealth I've learned a lot about the ome school movement and the excellent job that you folks o m educating your children I have come to the onclusion that you're truly remarkable people And I have

lot of respect for you folks for what you do and how you o it

I look at the responsibility that's placed pon me as a legislator and a member of the Education ommittee And I think the fundamental question that I restle with here and one that I have to beg an answer to n the next few weeks is basically this If we pass this egislation that removes these requirements will this uality home school education system still remain in ennsylvania?

Five years from now will we still have the uality system we have today"3 That' s the fundamental uestion that I wrestle with And I'm listening and earning to try to reach a conclusion and an answer

Dr Ray made a very fundamental point when he

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 79

laid too many times we pass legislation or develop our idicies based upon opinion but not research To me esearch is fundamental in reaching a conclusion to this

[uestion

And so my question, Dr Ray goes to you You

Lave presented us with some research And the conclusion ou have reached -- and I want you to tell me if that that

read from it -- is that you're telling me that in your onclusion from your research that the present law in ennsylvania though it does no harm probably doesn't do ny good, therefore it doesn't really need we don't eally need to have it, number 1

And then number 2 is I want to go to the heart f the research To me this is fundamentally important an you convince me that the research that you have eveloped okay you have used a large enough clinical mass hat the data here is relatively moving in the right irection7

My point is in states where nobody registers o be home schoolers, are there a lot of folks out there in ome schooling that aren't in this study or not? Can I ook at this and say this is pretty valid stuff and the map hat's taken me on is taking me pretty well in the right irection7

DR RAY Okay The first part is Does the

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 80

esearch show no harm or no good based on regulation' In issence I did say there's no correlation If you're just ookmg, if you're only looking at the, quote objective ealm of test scores we see no relationship When you ook at 50 different states, 50 different laws degrees of egulation

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN No good no harm

•ight?

DR RAY Right as far as we can see econdly you talk about in a sense the methodology of the tudies And what I've given you is basically all that xists Okay9 And I've done some of it and some others ave done some of it

And you cannot -- in social sciences as you now sometimes you cannot get everybody to participate, ou know In the public school if the school district and

university professor, you know, gets approved, he can go n there and get all 200 children

But what we know is from this short resentation I gave you as you look at that page of the arious studies it's the most robust information we have n other words somebody might argue, Well, all right Dr ay in a state where testing is not required, who's going o test7

Well interestingly, a lot of parents do test

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 81

heir children because they just kind of want to know t' s their choice They want to know how their children re doing Another person might argue Well only the eople whose kids score higher are going to test That's ot true either

People who want to know how their children are omg on one measure of standardized tests test their hildren So from that perspective the research that I've lven you even though it's a rough synthesis is quite obust and gathers in everything we know

The evidence is whether you're m, you know a ow low regulation state, you know Oklahoma or Montana omethmg like that -- I can't remember all the names of he states You can look on the list there --we find the hildren are doing very well, just like they're doing very ell in Pennsylvania

So I guess the point I was trying to make then s a philosophical point If there's no evidence to show hat state control improves children's learning at least rom that perspective of research there's no evidence to ave state control

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN And you think here's enough evidence there to reach the conclusion you ave?

DR RAY Yes That's what we have That's

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 82

hat I've seen both research-wise and qualitatively in my xperiences

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN Thank you

DR RAY So from both directions

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Clymer

REPRESENTATIVE CLYMER Thank you, Mr hairman I was here m 1988 to help pass legislation to rovide the home school act here in Pennsylvania Back hen, I had some concerns And I just took a few minutes o write about those concerns This will be an bservation, and then I will have a question

Back then I was concerned true with the cademics -- that was part of the program -- but also about rug and alcohol abuse among our young Today, even in ear 2 0 02 we know there is a serious problem with underage nnking

I'm pleased to report that home schoolers have ealt very effectively with this program, or with this roblem as it comes to their own children And that is, we ind very few in the home schooling families that have a rug -- that is, the students -- have a drug or alcohol roblem

We as legislators lament the fact that we an't get those who are 18 years of age to vote We have one legislation to try to give registration forms when

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 83

tudents graduate at diplomas when they receive their lplomas at high school

And this is certainly not trying to compare ome schooling with public education just some bservation Well, home schoolers, when they turn 18, they egister to vote They're involved in their government verythmg that we want young people to do home schoolers re doing

I've heard comments about the fact that what re they teaching as far as a religious criteria'5 I know hat in talking to some home schoolers what they do teach s the good Samaritan act You know ladies and gentlemen nd members of this panel, if we could teach more the owerful message of the good Samaritan, if that could be aught in our schools and in other public areas, we would e a much civil society a more safer society We wouldn't ave all the problems that we have today that we as egislators have to address So I want to just share that s well

Without doubt today's culture is really ressing hard on traditional family values, you know that omehow if you're a husband and wife and you have no hildren, there's something wrong with that that's not olitically correct And home schoolers do exactly the ery things that we want them to do that have that

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 84

lght-knit family

We bemoan the fact that there's people in high laces, in corporations that do wrong things They're cademically sound They probably have degrees that I'll ever achieve but they don't have the morality to go with t And yet that's what our home schoolers do They teach hat morality which is so critical

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE CLYMER And we say it's arental responsibility Well, that's what home schoolers re doing and that's what the parents are doing They're ssummg parental responsibility So my vote back then was

good vote And I'm looking at today's bill

Now here's my question And it was brought p by Brian Ray And that is, he said the success of earning m schools is parental involvement My question s, How much do you really put in parental involvement7 ow really important is the family? Because we as egislators continue to vote on legislation that may weaken he family

So could you just -- and I only ask you to lve the question because of the time How important is he family in Pennsylvania or Nevada or Utah or Oregon7 ow important is the family unit in our society7

DR RAY Well there's almost no debate

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 85

nymore It's not just my opinion But I annually attend he American Education Research Association and it's epeatedly coming out that that's probably the key factor rid anything that you can do to enhance that, encourage hat take away things that get in the way of them spending lme on teaching their children and just spending time with hem, that's going to help them

And when they have various kinds of things hat require time that's not oriented toward that, it takes way from that it's going to hurt their learning

REPRESENTATIVE CLYMER So the family really s the hub of our society Any time that there is omethmg that comes up that -- it's really not fair to ask ou this question But for our fellow panelists here, we

11 recognize how important, how important family unit is n our society Thank you And that's the end of my uestions Mr Chairman

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Lawless

REPRESENTATIVE LAWLESS Thank you, Mr hairman I'm not going to have a question I'm just oing to make it brief because we're probably behind chedule here So I just want to make a comment And that s from what I've learned here today, it seems to me that t's business as usual

It's the bureaucrats of public education

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 86

ersus people who want to teach their own children If you ake the statistics that came out today that there's

4,000 one of the panelists said there were 24 000 tudents home schooling in Pennsylvania, you divide that by he 501 school districts my public math education tells me hat's about 44 students per district

Of that, 99 percent of them are achieving xcellence You're now talking about 3 students per

.istrict There has to be much much more And maybe this s for the superintendent There's got to be a whole lot

Lore problems in public education than only having 3 tudents that may not be reaching the standards and yet re' re here in huge discussion

You can go to any school board meeting in

'ennsylvania You won't see 1,600 1 800 people show up hat are concerned parents for 3 children

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE LAWLESS So I just want to end y saying you know yes this is an issue I believe that

560 has to be massaged It goes too far for my liking ut when it comes right down to it there must be more mportant things that we should be doing today than othenng all these folks who are doing an outstanding job

(Applause )

DR SAYLOR Mr Chairman, may I respond?

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 87

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Okay Go ahead

DR SAYLOR I just want to say -- apparently

didn't make myself clear -- I am not arguing against home chooling And I'm not saying that the parents who are ome schooling are not doing a good 30b I'm saying the aw that was enacted is a good one That's all

(Applause )

MR KLICKA Can I add something real quick on hat, Representative, is that where the harm is taking lace is in the arbitrary enforcement And something was aised earlier by one of the representatives that if it's ot broke why fix it7

And my point is it is broke and it needs to be lxed so that these families aren't put through the ringer ike they have been And I've given you a lot of evidence nd I've got a lot more to present So that's an important ssue to keep in mind

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Grucela

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA Thank you, Mr hairman I had 2 brief questions, but it will only be 1 ecause the special needs I understand will be addressed n an amendment And I guess we'll have some discussion on hat later on But I did have a question on special needs ut I'll hold that back

My question may be for Dr Saylor or Mrs

. JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 88

iroff It's basically about attendance It's my

.nderstanding there's no state law that requires a public ichool student to attend X amount of days to be promoted to he next grade, is that true9

DR SAYLOR No Every student needs to ttend 180 days with the excuses that are listed in the chool code illness death in the family

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA Excuses means they reren ' t in school7

DR SAYLOR Correct

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA That's my point So hey're not -- there's no state law that says in order to ie promoted to the next grade, a student has to be ihysically present in the school so many days7

DR SAYLOR That's correct

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA That's correct7 Is t also correct that maybe a district -- could a district dopt a policy that says a student has to be in school hysically present in the school X amount of days7

DR SAYLOR I believe some schools have done hat

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA So -- but home choolers are held to the 180, is that correct7

DR SAYLOR That's my understanding, yes Or he 900 hours 990 hours, depending on the grade level

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 89

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA I'm not tryxng to be acetious or humorous with this But wouldn't technically very home schooler have perfect attendance?

DR SAYLOR Looking at the logs and the ortfolios, there are days when students who are home chooled are entered as sick as well

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA But it's my nderstandmg they have to show 18 0 days9

DR SAYLOR That's right But of those 180 ays, I have seen logs and portfolios where the student or 1 or more of those 180 days, was listed as ill

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA Thank you, Mr hairman

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Rohrer ants to be last Are there any other members that have uestions7 Representative Miller

REPRESENTATIVE MILLER Thank you, Mr hairman Just briefly if you could comment on the fact s the evaluator and the superintendent review redundant in ome way' I mean, that's what seemed to come across to me he most m talking to my home school families

They resent paying for an evaluator and having nother level of review which really doesn't make sense I ean if we're going to go in and look into this law which

think we're going to be doing, is that one of the things

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 90

re should look at7

And the second part of the question just real

;uxck is the other thing I heard was lack of consistency

10 you have PDE regulations on what you are to do in your eviews7

DR SAYLOR Let me answer the last one first

'he answer is no To go back to your first question Is it edundant to have an independent evaluator and someone from he school district look at that evaluation"3 I have had ases where the evaluator has not stated whether or not hey felt the child has made appropriate progress

I've also had evaluators who have stated that he child has made appropriate progress and yet there is no vidence in their report of that Does that happen often7 o, it doesn't Is it in some cases redundant7 You bet

REPRESENTATIVE MILLER Thank you

MR KLICKA I might mention that ennsylvania's the only state that does that that does it wice

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Schuler

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER Thank you, Mr hairman Just a few comments and a question You know fter I got involved with this home school issue in 1988 hen Congressman Joe Pitts was here in the House of epresentatives and many of the members of this panel were

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 91

lso here during that time we had many obstacles to vercome to get this home school ruling or legislation assed but it finally passed

I basically still believe the bill, or the law s now written is a good law I think the problem has eveloped over the interpretation of that law Is that a orrect assumption on that' Would you agree with that7

DR RAY I'm looking at this from a hildren's learning perspective That's the main point ere And it's impossible to keep out philosophy All of s have a philosophy But from a children's learning erspective, you don't need this burden on the families he parents, nor do you need it on the school districts

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER Excuse me Your view hen is that it's a philosophical problem'

DR RAY No From a research perspective, rom a research perspective, you are taking time, energy, nd money away from these parents and these families and nterfermg with the education of their children From a esearch perspective you're also taking time, money and nergy from the school districts that they can be spending n the public school students whose parents have chosen to ut them m the public schools

From a purely objective, in a sense, research erspective, you're harming, in a sense both of these I

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 92

ven talked about the research that Dr Greene did when he ound out the more educational freedom you have, including ore educational freedom in home schooling the public chool student scores below

And now as I think about it more I can see hy that would be true I have met people m Oregon ublic school personnel, people in Maryland who say this his is taking resources time and energy away from what hese public school teachers can do for the children m hose schools And that's just a that's just a fact

We were talking about the cost benefit before hat's a fact of life what's happening here In fact here was one analysis I forget the fellow's name He ound, I think m Pennsylvania a dollar figure, over a lllion dollars spent on this business that these people ave to go through to find almost nobody

And the control does not make parents teach etter You go to Oklahoma and you'll find out that hey're doing a great job just like m Pennsylvania

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER Well that's the rice we pay for freedom to have home schooling In my 20 ears in the legislature, I have yet to receive a complaint rom a school superintendent or a teacher about the home chooling Now, you tell me all these problems that are oing on And I have yet to get communication from any

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 93

chool board m my district In fact, in my district I ot 2 letters m regards to support of this bill I got a ew against, too but only 2 in support of it

My next question and comment -- it's not a omment Well, it is a comment You're aware that if this all goes on the floor of the House, you're going to see a on of amendments And I hope you're concerned about that act because what could happen, we could put laws in or egulations or laws m there to make it more restrictive or the home schoolers

AUDIENCE MEMBER That•s a threat

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER That could very much

.appen When we passed this bill in 1988, there were a ton f amendments and there was a lot of fighting to turn them own But I'm not so sure that's going to happen this time f this goes on the floor That's all I have to say Mr hairman Thank you

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Any other members that ave any questions9 Let's make it brief

REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND Thank you Mr hairman It will be real brief I definitely want to ake a comment I know that there is a color scheme that oes on today Red is for, and blue is against I just anted to make sure that folks understood that I'm upportive of home schooling very much so

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 94

And I am also supportive of my colleague epresentative Rohrer I am not supportive of this egislation in its current as it's currently written I ust had this to put on today Thank you, Mr Chairman

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Representative Rohrer

REPRESENTATIVE ROHRER Thank you Mr hairman I want to thank the panelists for your ontribution here this morning and really for all the uestions that have been asked by the members and the omments that have been made I think a lot of the issues hat have been surfacing have been addressed in some ashion this morning And I think that they'll be further

.iscussed

I know from my perspective as a as a home chool father for 13 years, I've seen a lot happen And my ldest son has now graduated from college with a 98 6 verage 4 years He has done well in home schooling as ell as those who who are sitting here today

And I know that the concern -- because I hared this with Representative Schuler I shared the oncern with him Two years ago I'm not so sure that I as in a position really of even thinking that we needed to hange the law because in my district, we have no problem

•ith our superintendent I'm personal friends with the upermtendent and assistant superintendent, and they're

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 95

ood people

We have a lot of home schoolers in our istrict and it's a very positive relationship But the ore I became in contact with others across the state and hen became aware of the numbers of legal problems that ave been interacting that had to go to the attention of

SLDA it changed my opinion from what I personally felt to hat I thought facts indicated and proved

And to that extent that's one of the reasons

said we now know after 14 years, we have these legal roblems And whereas they don't occur with upenntendents like you clearly -- and I appreciate your estimony very much -- they're obviously of the other 501 istricts not of the -- but there's many other ones where here are definite problems

Another thing that I've come to realize omewhat is I've personally had to deal with this issue of hether or not control and guidelines ensure success in erformance And for me it's a paradigm shift We deal ith this as a committee all the time with having to impose ore and more rules

Of course, we fight that on the school board evel The last thing you want are more mandates because ou just say let us alone and we'll figure out how to do it ourselves And I think you're right And when it comes

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 96

o the home school family it's the same way Here it is

- I think we know after 14 years pretty much how things erform

And yet these families from across the state ay, You know what7 We can do an even better job if we had ome of these things which we now know not to be necessary f they were removed And really it's kind of that basis hat we really brought forward I know we've talked about ome of these things this morning

But personally -- I mean, since I have my kids t home I know -- I trust the parent I know you can find

lazy parent from time to time But man most parents on't want to have their kids at home if they don't want to ork with them you know It's just the bottom line

And there's a lengthy process that undergoes efore anybody chooses to school their children at home t is a discipline upon the parent that is more so than a iscipline on the child And it is a piece of work But e also like the benefits And so as we go down and hear he next panel I know we'll get into some other things

But I really appreciate what has been said he comments were very good And I think that we're ettmg good information today So thank you very much

(Applause )

CHAIRPERSON STAIRS Will the next panelists

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 97

ilease come forward7 Thanks for helping out Appreciate

'our comments If I can have your attention, please re'll begin our second panel We're ready to begin our second panel In the first panel we began with the ladies irst

And we have no format So if you want to do he same thing this time we will do the same So let's go rom left to right Ladies begin So try to limit

•ourself to 5 minutes and then we'll have questions ollowmg that You may begin

Introduce yourself, please And we can begin hen you speak into the microphone, you might want to get t pretty close to you It's difficult sometimes for eople to hear you So speak into it loud and clear hank you

MS NEWBORN I'm Maryalice Newborn I'm a ember of PHEN, Pennsylvania Home Education Network It's he oldest statewide support group for home schoolers in ennsylvania My testimony is the one with the flag on the ront for freedom

Many of my points have been covered already o I'm going to go down them I'm going to be a teacher oday -- novel concept -- instead of a testifier Reading s not probably one of the better things I do with the ids I usually teach

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 98

First of all what I want to tell you about is

; B 256 0 upholds the US Constitution Supreme Court

[ecisions and congressional findings HSLDA Chris Klicka, old you about the US Supreme Court saying the primary iontrol of children's education is for the parents The upportmg role is for the school districts

The question is How much is the state's level

>f interest7 The state has already declared their level of nterest in public school nonpublic school and private schools It is called compulsory attendance laws owever, with home schools we have compulsory attendance aws, review of our objectives, review of our portfolios eview of our evaluations and testing

We have to review the progress That is

.iscriminatory to apply compulsory attendance laws to tates' interests and then to apply different to the home chooling environment

Mr Klicka also talked about the 501 school

.istricts and how they apply the law In a recent survey e found that 92 percent of them exceed the limits of the aw They're given a law, and they exceed it This leads o the harassment the harassment that maybe you're not earing about but we are

We're hearing about it because we want to home chool, and we'll do just about anything to continue But

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 99

re're not going to be quiet anymore H B 2560 will give iarents educational choices and bring Pennsylvania's home

:ducation law into the 21st Century in line with the rest if the United States

On page 2 and then the following page is a omparison of Pennsylvania Home Education Law with the

'ther states It' s apparent by the red state of

'ennsylvania with its 7 regulations Pennsylvania is the

>nly state requiring multiple levels of oversight of home ducated students

Pennsylvania is the only state to legislate irivate evaluations by certified teachers Forty-seven states do not legislate school district oversight More han half the states require notice of intent or less

'ennsylvania has 7 distinct categories of requirements

Pennsylvania is clearly out of step with the est of the country Dr Ray also talked a little bit bout his study I'll briefly go over some of this H B

560 is sufficient for the home education population and oes not control it based upon statistical outliers

In Brian Ray's study, he shows that the amount f regulation does not affect the students' performance

>ur desired output is an educated child not paperwork We ere talking about data It's not 99 percent It's 99 91 ercent In 2000, 09 percent of the home education

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 100

opulation were believed to have inappropriate education by- he superintendents

This is from the Pennsylvania Department of ducation data Every superintendent has to report in very year this data That says the converse 99 91 ercent had appropriate education The 09 percent is onsidered to be an outlier of the population, statistical utliers

You cannot control any system and eliminate tatistical outliers There is no valid reason to control he entire home school population with regulation based pon controlling these outliers This is an undue burden o the general population of home schoolers

We talked about economics, and I have that tudy And I will talk about fiscal responsibility H B

560 is an economic solution that will save the ommonwealth money There are 4 components to this conomics Cost to the school districts state nstructional expenses saved by the home schoolers lgration of home schoolers to the cyber charter schools nd economic and brain drain to the Commonwealth

The current education law is an unfunded andate on an already financially drained public school ystem The monitoring of paperwork and the micromanagmg f home educators costs the school districts over $5

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 101

ullion a year

In 2000, after looking at 23,000 students' iaperwork the superintendents again, as I said, questioned inly 0 9 percent I keep bringing this up because you were skmg what was the cost benefit ratio here That equates o finding a child at the cost of a quarter of a million tollars Is this fiscal responsibility7

Pennsylvania home educators save the state iver $115 million This number that I give you now is xtremely conservative This comes from only average nstructional expenses determined by the Pennsylvania apartment of Education

There is no fixed cost in this, and it only pplies to children between the ages of 8 and 17 All hose students that are home educated under 8 and over 17 re not in this cost The home educated population has rown from 3 500 in 1989 to over 24,000 in 2000 The verage growth rate for the first 10 years was 21 percent he average growth rate in 200 0 was only 3 percent

And you say what changed7 The ma]or ifference in the home education environment was the ntroduction of cyber charter schools Many of the cyber harter schools many of the cyber charter families left ome schooling because of perceived reduction in paperwork

This flux reduced the number of home educated

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 102

tudents The cyber charter students cost the school istricts money Home educators save the school districts oney Home schoolers will continue migrating to cyber harter schools if the home education climate is not more quitable

Not only are families leaving cyber charter chools, they are leaving the state We did a survey I ave right here 69 letters from ministers engineers rofessors that did not come to Pennsylvania or moved out f Pennsylvania because of the home education law This is

financial drain on the Commonwealth This is a deterrent o the Governor's brain gam initiative This is costing ennsylvania its future

2560 is a solution to many problems problems hat home schoolers have been quietly facing for 14 years t balances the state's interest with parental authority

560 does not unnecessarily regulate the entire population t eliminates the unfunded mandate of the public school ystem while continuing to save the state money It brings ennsylvania into the 21st Century with a home education aw comparable to other states

I respectfully request you look over the acts vote on it and put H B 2560 out of committee hank you

(Applause )

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 103

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you Ms ewborn And as you probably know, we overran by about an our and 15 minutes our first panel So try to stick to he 5 minutes if at all possible and move along We don't ant to lose legislators or presenters here this fternoon It's just too important

So will the next presenter please introduce ourself and present your testimony

MS KRAMER Can you hear me okay'' Good ornmg Mr Chairman and honorable members of the House ducation Committee My name is Ellen Kramer I have ome educated our children -- now ages 11 16 and

8 -- for 10 years

Nine years ago my husband and I founded the atholic Home Schoolers of Pennsylvania The italicized ext will not be read but it is there for your benefit he decision of the Jeffery versus O'Donnell case found hat the law preceding 1988 was so vague that a person of rdinary intelligence could not reasonably steer between awful and unlawful to avoid criminal prosecution

The current home education law is equally mbiguous creating much confusion for home educators and istricts and resulting in numerous unnecessary conflicts nd disparity in the implementation of the law House Bill

560 is clear and concise on the requirements to meet

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 104

ompulsory attendance

It complies with Title 20, Section 3401 of the ederal Code regarding the primacy of the parental role in ducation and the state taking on the supporting role And t uses the least restrictive means of meeting the state's nterest as determined by the Supreme Court in Wisconsin ersus Yoder

The current law requires that all home ducated students endure a one-size-fits-all multilevel ethod of assessment Also the present law presumes that e are guilty unless proven innocent We must produce hese multiple types of documentation that we heard this ormng despite the fact that we annually sign an affidavit tatmg that we will comply with the law The affidavit hould have been sufficient Otherwise it presumes that e're lying every time we sign that affidavit

House Bill 2560 supports the choice of ssessments that the parents deem appropriate for that articular student for that particular year The current aw allows the superintendent the option to refuse special eeds services to a student This is m conflict with ection 922(a) of the Public School Code of 1949 which learly states that these services are to be provided to very student in the Commonwealth on an equal basis

House Bill 2560 eliminates that conflict and

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 105

lso is in alignment with the Federal Child Find Program owever, it falls short of guaranteeing services to special eeds students which -- and it was asked earlier oday -- represent 2 4 percent of the home education opulation according to the Department of Education

The current law guarantees the loan of extbooks from the local district Eighty-three percent of he families choose instead to purchase their own textbooks rom the ever-increasing plethora of sources available to ome educators

Although House Bill 2560 does not specifically ddress this, Section 923(a) of the Public School Code tates It is the intent of the General Assembly by this nactment to assure such a distribution of such educational ids that every school child in the Commonwealth will quitably share in the benefits thereof This section dequately addresses the issue and does not require epeatmg in this bill

With regard to diplomas, some children are eceivmg a diploma from a full service distance learning rogram that they are using for their curriculum also a tate-recognized diploma program in order to get PHEAA rants and a GED just in case either of the other 2 isn't ufficient in some manner House Bill 2560 will eliminate he status for having a briefcase of diplomas

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 -I- V \J

Parents of all faiths take their role as home ducators very seriously and no one rushes into this arents put their kids back m school if they think that here's any chance that they will not be able to give roper attention to home education

House Bill 2560 will not make home education asier Under this bill parents are still required to eet the same high standard of academics and compliance ith compulsory attendance

In summary, House Bill 2560 is a 21st Century ill that acknowledges the efficiency of one-to-one utormg and the well-proven fact that parental involvement s the key ingredient in success of students It does not mpmge upon the freedoms of the 99 91 percent of families ho are unquestionably doing an admirable 30b

It reduces the financial burden on the state nd districts and maintains parental responsibility for the ost of educating students We are not asking for funding herefore, I respectfully request that you schedule this ill for consideration by your committee and that you vote t out of committee as quickly as possible Thank you

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you Ms Kramer or your testimony We really appreciate that And I elieve Ms Lugg

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 107

MS LUGG My name is Carol Lugg I'm the

!hairperson of North Central Pennsylvania Home Schoolers

.nd while I can't speak for the collective home schoolers n North Central Pennsylvania, I can speak as a home choolmg mother of 4 children who have been home schooled nder the current law

I anticipate another 12 years of home choolmg in my future So the future of home schooling latters to me very much I'm not going to tell you how bad ouse Bill 2560 is Instead I want to tell you how good nd decent our current law is when it's applied ppropriately by all parties

Every year we commence home schooling we ubmit a notarized affidavit to our districts We also ubmit educational objectives to the district, which the

.istrict cannot reject Throughout the year, we keep a ecord of completing 180 days or 900 hours with the numbers iffering slightly for high school I personally use a 99 ent memo pad, and I write down what we do in this record ook I think this gives me a lot of flexibility

We must also maintain portfolios throughout he year simply by saving a sampling of work Near the end f the year the parent and child can determine how laborate they want these portfolios to be It would be ithin the law to simply take in a folder with a sampling

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 108

f papers enclosed

Once the portfolio materials are gathered an valuator is contacted This means a cost of anywhere from

25 to $50 But when we bear the cost we ensure that we et to choose who does the evaluation And typically, we ook for someone who finds our educational style cceptable

The evaluator then prepares a letter stating hat an appropriate education is taking place in the home he letter and the portfolio must be submitted to the chool district In 3rd 5th and 8th grade the child ust be tested from a list of 10 state-approved tests

I use a testing service which charges $25 and estmg will cost me $75 through my child's primary and econdary education If it's a testing year, we include ur test scores when submitting portfolios and evaluators' etters to the district

Given that the compulsory attendance age is 8 ost of us don't contact an evaluator until 3rd grade So he child would then be evaluated over a period of 9 years t an average cost of $35 per evaluation I can expect to pend $315 on evaluations $75 for testing

And I've spent a total of $390 to show the tate that I have educated my child through high school and alanced the scale to give the state the accountability it

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 109

equires to maintain a compelling interest in the education if a child I think that's probably just slightly more han I would spend to show the state that I've had my car nspected over the same period of time

My children and many other home schooling amilies -- in fact, 45 percent of them -- live in istricts which allow home schoolers to participate in arymg levels of school-sponsored activities, such as ntramural and extramural sports, vocational education rts and music Some districts even allow students to ttend a few classes if seats allow

I can have access to those extracurricular ctivities because under the current law, I do report to he district They know I'm doing my 30b and they respect hat I guess when superintendents or school boards in ther districts reject home schoolers, they must not really nderstand that this can work and it works quite well

We must not pass a bill that includes a clause hat would destroy the relationships that are good for 45 ercent of home schoolers and would certainly not in any ay encourage a growth of that statistic So I have to ask yself why Why gut a law which appears to be working7

Why gut a law that allows a framework under hich to build a solid home school7 Why gut a law that lves us the freedom to choose our curricula, our

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 110

valuators methods of accountability, choice of tests hether we want to do simple or fancy portfolios, and

Hows us to attempt to establish a relationship with our lstrict7 Why would the sponsors of this bill call it an mprovement7

The Department of Education ought to be able o clear up misunderstandings and deal with superintendents hat are stepping over the boundaries of the current law

think why we are here today is because we have situations here there are superintendents and home schoolers pushing he current law to its extreme I would agree that we ould get rid of a few of the hoops -- excuse me -- in our urrent law but not at the risk of adopting a law that is llled with loopholes

In closing perhaps my outlook is different ecause the glasses that sit on my nose, or don't sit on my ose see the positives, the good things about our current aw Maybe it's because I have always home schooled under he current law so my glasses are tinted but I don't think o

I home school under a law which provides for ue process and protects me from the unmitigated whims of a ruant officer I can relax and use the world as my lassroom without fear or paranoia when others see us out unng the day

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 Ill

I can give my kid a parent-issued diploma I an use one of the diploma programs I can even create my wn diploma program if I don't like any of the ones vailable I will be sending my kids out into a world that s more than 98 percent unhome schooled

I want the populous to know that my child's ducation has consisted of accountability and esponsibility There is no accountability m this bill et when the home schooling is completed, a home schooler an call themselves a high school graduate

This no accountability but full recognition ill with an attitude tips the scale of justice and has one nothing but divide the home schooling community I sk the House Education Committee to just simply drop House ill 2560 Let's not even consider it as an option or any f the other avenues that will be directed here

Let's expect superintendents and home choolers to educate themselves on the current law and make t work I would have liked to have seen amendments to our urrent law like no longer submitting these portfolios to ur districts Let us choose between portfolios valuations, or testing But that's not what's before us ere

Massaging the current law might have been ffective But to wipe this out and replace it with a law

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 112

hat will be massaged by those at the educational stablishment we may end up with a very contorted law that one of us could recognize

If a reasonable bill had been introduced, we ould have enjoyed a bit more freedom Good and bad laws on't necessarily make good or bad home schoolers but they o alter the environment m which we live Protect our ood reputation, protect our decent law and protect a hild's right to an education Thank you

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you Mrs Lugg ppreciate your testimony Sir would you introduce ourself and present your testimony, please

DR RICHMAN I'm Dr Howard B Richman I'm xecutive director of Pennsylvania Home Schoolers ccreditation Agency I'm here to represent our 1,500 embers many of whom are in the audience wearing blue We re the largest of 7 home school associations currently ecognized by the Pennsylvania Department of Education to lve diplomas under the current law We have twice as many raduates as the other 6 organizations combined

We oppose this bill because it would take away ur diplomas and the ability of the home school community o protect its reputation For some history, when the home ducation law passed in December 1988, it included

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 113

equirements for high school graduation, but it did not pecify who would give the diplomas

In their first circular about the law the epartment of Education said that school districts did not ave to give diplomas to home schoolers So I asked the epartment who should parents or would they give the lplomas themselves?

They told me that they would not recognize arent-issued diplomas but they might issue the diploma hemselves if we decided to pursue it We did In esponse, the Department came up with an unexpected lternative They stated that home school organizations hould issue the diploma since home school organizations ould have a vested interest in maintaining the quality of heir diplomas

I immediately started our accreditation gency In succeeding years we submitted our standards nd procedures to the Department Other nonprofit home chool associations did the same And the Department nder both the Casey and the Ridge Administrations, wrote etters to PHEAA to Penn State and to us recognizing our lploma and those of the other home school associations as he equivalent of a high school diploma for all legal urposes

Over the past decade, our organization has

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 114

stablished an excellent reputation for our diplomas olleges are very appreciative of our transcripts and of he informative evaluation letters that are attached Our lplomas and transcripts are helping our graduates succeed n life

This bill is designed to take away our diploma ption I was involved in the formulation process and I now Not only does it eliminate the specific provisions entioned in the Department's policy, such as evaluators ortfolios, and dual process hearings, but it specifically revents the Department of Education from enacting any olicy which provides even so much as a suggestion to a ome education program

During the formulation of this bill I let epresentative Rohrer know exactly what language we would eed to protect recognition of our diplomas On December

8th, he called a meeting to forge a compromise between us nd those who favored parent-issued diplomas

At that meeting we agreed to accept their arent-issued diplomas so long as they also recognized our rganization-issued diplomas Representative Rohrer ncluded the compromise language in the January 22nd raft And the very next day I e-mailed him thanking him or listening to our deep concerns

However, he did not stick to the compromise

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 115

eached The next draft of the bill and every successive raft including the one m front of you today, ended ecognition of our diplomas During a meeting in my State epresentative's office we put a conference call through o Representative Rohrer's office

And I asked his assistant Jim Cox, why he had aken out the language that would have protected our lploma He said that he did so in order to prevent a lerarchy of home school diplomas In other words those ho favor parent-issued diplomas knew that if they didn't limmate our diploma their diploma would be lower on the lerarchy

This bill is a statue of liberty for elmquents Under this bill any parent prosecuted for ruancy would have 30 days to begin a home education rogram in order to escape punishment Then that parent ould be able to graduate the delinquent at any age in rder to make the delinquent exempt from further compulsory ducation

Not only that but the parent of the elinquent could be a high school dropout and yet the lploma issued based upon no accountability or standards hatsoever would have to be recognized by the state as the quivalent to a high school diploma The diploma m this ill is a joke

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 116

In contrast, the current home education law rovides a flexible framework for home schooling which alances the rights of the parent with the rights of the hild to receive an education and the interest of the state n an educated citizenry

It lets parents write the objectives for their wn educational program It includes due process rocedures which protect the family from abuse by the upermtendent Not only that but it protects the child's nterest by involving another adult in the child's life a hird party whose evaluation letters help the child gain cholarships and college admissions

The diplomas issued by the home school rganizations under the current law are recognized and egitimate because they are based upon accountability and tandards The House Education Committee could meet our oncerns in either of 2 ways The first and easiest would e to do nothing Just let this bill die

The second would be to pass this bill as an lternative not a replacement, to the current home iucation law The current home education law protects

Dth the parents' rights and the child's interests It rovides the accountability and diplomas that many home

^hoolers appreciate Leave the current law alone

(Applause )

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 117

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you Dr

:ichman And also thank you to each one of you so far for rour txmely presentations and working with us Sir, would

'ou introduce yourself and present your testimony

DR EAGLESON Yes Hello My name is Bruce lagleson The packet I've given you looks like this I'm n emergency room physician in the Good Samaritan Hospital n Lebanon Pennsylvania And I'll have to confess that acmg somebody coming in in a code does not intimidate me s much as this testimony has

The hard part of this testimony is there are any people here who are my good friends, and some of whom on't agree with me on this law And yet that's how

.merica' s supposed to work You know there ' s a loyal mority that's a long held concept

As you know the folks dressed m red are eople who are supporting this bill I think the numbers hen you look in the crowd speak for themselves I'm here n behalf of CHAP the Christian Home School Association of ennsylvania And on behalf of them I'd like to thank you or inviting us

CHAP presents every spring what is, if not the argest, certainly among the largest home schooling onventions in the world We have newsletters both lectromc and snail mail that go out to thousands of home

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 118

choolers

I think I can safely say that CHAP has contact ith more home schoolers than any other organization in his state And I think many of you know that we do ecause you've gotten many letters from people who support ur position

When I learned speech in high school which ntimidated me a great deal back then they told me it was ften good to tell a joke So I thought I'd share with you ne that I told at our convention the last 2 years When eople ask me about Pennsylvania law, I often quote the

SLDA lawyers and say Many experts believe that our law is

9th out of 50 states

And then I look them in the eye and I say But here's good news on the horizon New York which is 50th s likely to change their bill this year We can take 50th lace by doing nothing

On a serious note, though, when CHAP began to alk about this law I studied the Holy Scriptures to see hat they said about education In the Bible the primary eachers are to be the parents and the church leaders God as clearly placed this responsibility for educating hildren m the hands of the parents

For those on the committee following along

'm going to skip some sections that seem to have been well

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 119

overed by other speakers Our current law is complex nd it's difficult to follow even by well-meaning ell-intentloned home schoolers and superintendents

Individual school districts enforce the laws n different ways and create what appears to be their own ules Most parents end up buying a guide interesting nough one issued by Howard and the other by me, to one or he other of them on how to follow the law m ennsylvania Why you should have to buy a book to follow he law seems to say something about our law

To follow up on Maryalice's point it is nstructive to listen to home educators who move from nother state Mrs Lugg has stated that this law works reat and it's a wonderful law But I don't believe I've ver heard that comment from somebody who didn't live in ennsylvania under our law

I can say that virtually everybody I've ever alked to from another state who is, understands our law ays to me, Why do you guys do that7 At our convention a onth ago a New Jersey family said to me We've had many ptions to move into Pennsylvania, but we chose to stay in ew Jersey because we don't want to live with your law

Several years ago I had a vision for what ould be a good home school law I thought it should be hort preferably fit on one page easily read and quickly

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 120

nderstood by anyone who is literate The law should be lear enough that you don't have to buy a book to nderstand it And our current law obviously does not fit hose criterion

If such bill as 2560 was passed, CHAP would no onger receive calls from parents who are confused and uzzled by the lack of clarity in our current law One eek ago today I took a call from a home schooling mother ho asked me this question My child turns 8 in November ut she went to kindergarten in public school Do I need o file an affidavit this year'

I'd like you to think about that for a minute ecause I would bet there are a lot of people in this room ho don't know the answer to that Well the reason you on't know the answer is our current law gives 2 different nswers that contradict And I think that we should orrect that so that the law can be followed by ell-meaning home schoolers

Although home schoolers pay the same school axes that everyone else does we use very few resources rom school districts Home schoolers pay twice to provide he important services to the Commonwealth We pay to ducate other people's children and then we pay to educate ur own

From age 8 to 17, each family spends about

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 121

800 per student to meet the Pennsylvania legal equirements You'll see m my footnotes where these umbers came from I'm apparently not as good a shopper as ome folks because I'm paying a little more for these ervices than some

But for our family the extra time required to omply with this law is really the issue And I haven't eard much about that So I'm going to go into that hese estimates come from Maryann Eagleson my lovely and evoted wife Any of you that know anything about home choolmg know that without a wife who can make it through avy Seal training, your home school program is not going o go

(Applause )

DR EAGLESON And virtually everybody you see ehind me is one of those people Anyway Maryann stimated that our family has spent 1 3 00 hours in the 16 ears we've been home schooling, 1 3 00 hours to comply with he law This is the equivalent of 32 workweeks and irtually the equivalent of a whole academic year

Our oldest is out of home school She's 20 he's graduated from college She taught this year in a hristian school But if you add up all the hours that ur family spent these are the numbers we get I also ust wanted to add the point -- because when I was

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 122

n the audience, ray wife elbowed me and said I had to say his -- that we would like to see the school districts reed up from the responsibility of doing this extra nfunded work but we don't want to see them freed up while e continue to do it

So the proposal that we would keep portfolios ut not have to turn them m does not help us with that

300 hours a bit So if we are going to change this law hat the school districts don't need to see something we ertamly don' t want to have to do it anyway

And most of these moms would still do it if t's in the law I think that's the take-home you probably

11 heard Home school success stories are commonplace t bears repeating the last 2 winners of the Geography Bee ave been home schoolers This year, somebody nudged out he home schoolers

But the 2 years before that the National pelling Bee was won by home schoolers You already know hat the superintendents even tell you we're succeeding at he 99 percent level

College acceptance not really a problem here's an article enclosed in your packet by Daniel olden a front page story on the Wall Street Journal, not enerally considered to be a home school supporter the all Street Journal But anyway this article says that

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 123

e're doing very well in college entrance exams

If you read it you'll see that we're actually omg better than other students educated in other nvironments And just as an example, to make this real o make this real, one home school family we know has 5 onderful daughters Two of them wanted to go to graduate chool, and they were both successful One matriculated to ershey Medical School this fall, and the other is ttendmg Harvard Law School

In summary I urge you to move H B 256 0 out f committee and to the House floor to pass this bill to lve home schoolers the credit that they have earned ecognize the parents' God given right and responsibility o educate their children Thank you

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you, Dr agleson for your testimony We appreciate those words nd now the next presenter on this panel is Ms Hudzinski

MS HUDZINSKI Hudzinski is correct My estimony is looking like this Good afternoon I am Mary udzmski, administrator of the MDHSA Diploma Program For he past 16 years, I have educated my children at home raduatmg 3 from high school and shepherding them into ollege as well as helping numerous families on their home choolmg journeys

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 124

Additionally I want to note here that I have

children who have been privately labeled as learning isabled and one profoundly handicapped child I would ike to address the issue of diplomas and diploma programs

will describe diplomas, explain what diploma programs are nd how they came about describe what is meant by state ecognition, and show what will change under H B 2560

A diploma is a certificate given to a student y a high school or college to show that the student has ompleted the required courses of a program It is empting to think that a diploma asserts a level of ducational attainment but it does not High schools do ot submit their graduation candidates for third-party eview Those who provide the education also acknowledge ts successful accomplishment

The Pennsylvania Department of Education has pecifically stated that it will only recognize 3 diplomas or home educated students The first one is issued by a lploma program The second is a GED, which carries an ndesirable stigma

The last is a statement signed by the upenntendent of the district of residence stating that he home educated student has completed graduation equirements Sadly, many superintendents will not sign uch a statement despite annually reviewing student

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 125

ortfolios and evaluations

Diploma programs arose as a way for parents to cknowledge graduation and earn PDE recognition Diploma rograms are unique to Pennsylvania, and no other state has ny comparable policy Howard Richman and I worked with reg White then Director of Policy at the PDE to develop he agreement by which the PDE would authorize certain rganizations to award diplomas

Diploma programs are the only real option for ome schoolers in Pennsylvania The PDE has agreed to give ertain privileges special privileges to those who hold hese diplomas and, in doing so, has excluded any students ho do not hold these certificates

However, if a Pennsylvania home educated tudent applies to a college out of state the question of lplomas is generally not raised Home educated students re able to provide evidence other than a diploma to atisfy admissions requirements

My third daughter attends a college in innesota The admissions office was not interested in her tate-recognized diploma It is imperative to see what tate recognition is not Most importantly diploma rograms are not authorized to say anything other than that he diploma is recognized

Greg White Director of Policy at the PDE when

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 126

his policy was drafted, was adamant that the language ould not be certified authorized or accredited These ppellations were specifically excluded from the list of ossible descriptions of what the PDE was granting

Furthermore school districts are free to eject these diplomas Please see the attached letter from arah Pearce dated April 3rd 2 001 The agreement does not equire review of the organization's standards and rocedures The specific interpretation of a credit of nglish, science or math is entirely at the discretion of he organization awarding the diploma

The PDE is not recognizing any standard of ducation or achievement It is simply recognizing that he organization requires compliance with the Public School ode Public and private schools are permitted to cknowledge this without submitting their candidates to hird-party evaluation Home educating parents in 4 9 other tates may do likewise And this is acceptable for federal mancial aid

One area of confusion that is well-addressed y H B 2560 is the meaning of substantially equivalent to

public high school diploma This stipulation grants the rivileges of applying to college obtaining PHEAA aid and ossibly home schooling his own children Again there is o authentication of any degree of achievement inherent in

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 127

his recognition

What will H B 2560 do7 It will eliminate iscrimination by PHEAA against students whose parents hoose not to purchase a diploma It will bring ennsylvania into agreement with federal practice Federal aw already recognizes parent-issued diplomas for purposes f post-secondary financial aid

H B 2560 will eliminate a great deal of onfusion in admissions offices In a survey of colleges n Pennsylvania, many admissions counselors believe that a ome educated student must obtain a diploma or certificate rom the agency that oversees Pennsylvania home schoolers

There is a diploma program that is called ennsylvania Home Schoolers Accreditation Agency This articular agency also conducts an annual high chool-at-home seminar and regularly interacts with college dmissions personnel

Because it can be legitimately said that a tate-recognized diploma is required in order to gam PHEAA id and admission to college many admissions counselors elieve that there is only one organization legally allowed o issue such diplomas It is unacceptable that college dmissions officers hold this belief

Retaining language that permits this situation o continue unchallenged is in direct violation of federal

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 128

aw I urge you to release H B 2560 from the Education ommittee and actively support its passage into law I ould also like to add one question

I realize it's not audience participation ut with my special experience with special needs children nd the statement of the school district administrators arlier I would like to know why, if school districts are o concerned for home schooled special needs students ewer than 50 percent of them provide access to these pecial needs services such as physical occupational and peech therapy to those students my district included7

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you very much nd we did that pretty good We were pushing for a half our and we did it in 4 5 minutes And I think you did a reat job We're going to take questions now epresentative Mcllhattan is going to start off

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN Yeah Two brief uestions the first one to Maryalice And you -- I want o make sure I heard you correctly Then I want you to ell me how you reached that conclusion I heard you say

thought that you said that 92 percent of the school istricts exceed the limit of the law

And that's a pretty heavy statement What are ou backing that up with7 I'm just curious

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 129

MS NEWBORN We did a survey of the 501 chool districts The sampling that we got was over 20 ercent Ninety-two percent of those exceed the equirements of the law School district policies were ubmitted I don't have the folder with me

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN Ninety-two percent f the 20 percent that responded, is that correct7

MS NEWBORN It was a sampling

REPRESENTATIVE MCILHATTAN Yeah Okay And o Dr Richman on quick question This whole issue of lplomas I don't have a preconceived idea m this whole ome school thing I'm just listening and I'm learning nd I sort of get twisted when I listen to you and listen o the lady at the end You made a pretty compelling rgument and then she sort of tore that apart pretty well

I want to give you a few minutes to rebut that o I can maybe reach a consensus m my mmd which way I hould go She basically says we don't need the diploma ost other states don't have the diploma and things work ell Why do we need one in Pennsylvania9 Take me around hat theory

DR RICHMAN All right First of all, if you ook at the appendix on page 24 of my testimony Appendix

College Admission Requirements in other states ccordmg to the 1998/1999 survey of the National Center

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 130

or Home Education, 38 percent of public colleges and 29 ercent of private colleges across the nation either equire home schoolers to take GED or SAT II tests not equired of school graduates

So what we're finding is that colleges across he nation are requiring more You get an indication of his with the statement I have here from Sheri McClain in orth Carolina The University of North Carolina rejected n Eagle Scout with SAT I scores of 1450 telling him that

parent-issued diploma is not good enough, that he needed

AT II scores in every subject area for them to admit him

And this is a college that wasn't allowed by tate law to have a policy that gives any extra equirements to home schoolers They still did it anyway hat we're finding is that parent-issued diplomas are not onsidered to be worth very much by colleges

So although a few states do allow them, hey're just not very valuable Whereas here m ennsylvania any home school organization can start a rogram Mary's organization did and I helped her get tarted And then our diplomas are all recognized for all f these purposes And we're not getting any of this 38 ercent or 29 percent for home schoolers with those with ur diplomas

MS KRAMER If I can address that further

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 131

'he information that Howard Richman ]ust gave is old

.nformation that was done if I understand correctly, from

[SLDA And that was done prior to the 105th Congress rhich made it acceptable to use parent-issued diplomas for

:he military and for college acceptance

Colleges were requesting diplomas because of ederal funding in the past But since federal funding for

>ost-secondary school is now possible with the larent-issued diploma with the distance learning diploma ir any other option diploma it's no longer required in the ither states Although that information is still

.vailable on HSLDA's website

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Okay We have representative Sturla

REPRESENTATIVE STURLA Thank you Mr lhairman I'm hoping that you all can agree on this igure I'm not sure what it is But what is the iercentage of students that are home schooled m the state if Pennsylvania9

MS NEWBORN 1 1 percent

REPRESENTATIVE STURLA 1 1 percent Do you now how that compares with other states7 I mean, are we

0th in terms of -- in the other states are 10 percent of he kids home schooled or where are we on that9

MS NEWBORN I'll field this one first And

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 laybe there's more opinions on this Pennsylvania apartment of Education keeps very close numbers on the ges between 8 and 17 So we know that there are 24 019 tudents However other states do not have that kind of ata So it's very difficult to assess But HSLDA has ndicated that we may be on the low side

DR RICHMAN I can give you exact figures ennsylvania's statistic is 1 3 percent And according to

national study by the US Census, the average across the ation is 1 7 percent If you look at where home schoolers re distributed they're distributed m rural areas

Pennsylvania, for example in the City of hiladelphia has a very low percentage of home schoolers ompared to the population Pennsylvania being an urban tate would naturally have a lower percentage than the verage of the nation We're about 1 3 percent compared to

7

REPRESENTATIVE STURLA Do you know, is there ny correlation between -- for instance you pointed out hiladelphia I know Philadelphia has a very high ercentage of kids in parochial school Is there any orrelation between that versus other states I mean, the act that we have a large number of kids in parochial chools in the state7

MS HUDZINSKI I don't know about parochial

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 133

ichools specifically but I do know that parents who tend o pull their children out to home school are generally lulling them out from the private system The option is tetween home schooling and private school, not home school nd public school

REPRESENTATIVE STURLA Okay Thank you

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Representative

'leagle

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Thank you Mr

!hairman And I can't remember who mentioned this But it eems to be a consensus that, that school administrators re overstepping their bounds with the present law Can

•ou give me -- I don't want to make this too lengthy

But can you give me the primary area that you hmk that they're -- each one of you, please -- the inmary area that they are overstepping their bounds9

MS HUDZINSKI I do run interference for a ot of families having difficulties And I have seen a endency to presuppose that families with special needs hildren will not be able to appropriately meet the needs f their children at home

On the other hand, my son's neurologist told e that he is aware of 2 patients of his where the school istrict has specifically asked them to remove their child o home school them So we're running into a conflict

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 134

etween the law being applied with zealousness to parents ho want to do a good job and are doing a good job with heir children in areas like filing affidavits and whether hey've met the medical requirements and school districts urning a blind eye perhaps to students that they'd rather ot deal with

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE So that's a special eeds area for you Mary7

MS HUDZINSKI Yes

DR EAGLESON I'd like to just share one xample that I know well Some good friends of mine whom re here today I might add, had the situation where there ere sections of our current law that they felt for eligious grounds, they could not comply with

They notified the school district that they ere not going to be able to comply with the law because f, and their reasons The school district contacted them nd said we need to talk They did talk And on one evel I think the school district did an admirable thing

They said Well, we can see what your concern s Can you at least do this7 And that family said Yes e can do that That wouldn't violate our convictions So he school superintendent in that situation, set aside bout 90 percent of the Pennsylvania requirements in order o meet this family's needs Like I said, on one hand I

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 135

hink that's admirable But I'm sure that the rest of the ome schoolers m that district were not offered that ption

The other extreme -- and if you think back to r Klicka's testimony earlier this morning he listed many xamples that the school districts many of them don't nderstand that they are bound by state law

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Well, what I'm asking s What is the one big area that just pops out in your ind as far as exceeding the bounds9

DR EAGLESON The biggest area that I'm xposed to is that they require more things than the law oes They might --

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Documentation then9

DR EAGLESON Typically yes In the form of ocumentation, yes

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Thank you

DR RICHMAN One of the things about the ennsylvania law that hasn't been mentioned by any of the eople who have spoken to you today is that home schooling n Pennsylvania it's one of the most safe states in the ation for home schooling, according to the Home School egal Defense Association

At the Chapter, Scott Somerville not Chris licka, spoke He's another one of the lawyers there And

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 136

e made this point It's because we have the due process irocedures if a superintendent gets a complaint, he oesn't send CYS into the home The superintendent has pecific procedures that they have to follow

First of all, they ask for additional

.ocumentation If the home schooler supplies additional ocumentation, then if the superintendent still thinks an nappropriate education is taking place, he can hold a due rocess hearing These are extremely rare

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE I don't mean to nterrupt you But could you just focus in on what is the rea that that you feel is the bounds are overstepped7

DR RICHMAN I think that if home schoolers id not have to turn in their portfolios that would limmate 99 9 percent of the problems

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE But that's required n the present law I'm talking --

DR RICHMAN They only have to turn in the est results and the evaluation letters Dr Saylor is ery unique among school districts in assigning an ssistant superintendent 30 days' worth of time to look hrough those portfolios

For the most part school superintendents look t these evaluation letters look at the test scores If verythmg seems okay that's all they need to look at

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 137

hen they photocopy those They put them in their file hey're protected because there was a professional educator ho said that child was getting an appropriate education

If home schoolers only had to turn in the valuation letters and the test scores, 99 percent of the onflicts would end

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE So that's an area of ocumentation, too Are there any -- Mary said about pecial needs and documentation Are there any other areas hat you feel are being abused right now7

MS KRAMER What I have found is -- one hmg that' s been happening in the last year or 2 specially -- is that instead of the district taking a amily to due process if they don't get the paperwork they eed -- like, one family here today the mother did not and in her diploma -- and it says in the current law that ttestmg to an affidavit is sufficient evidence

The district wanted to see that mother's lploma anyway So that's just an example of one thing hat they wanted to see But after that, they took the oman to truancy hearings She ended up winning, but it ook over a year to get that squared away So we might ave due process in the current law, but districts are also sing truancy

And we don't have any statistics on the number

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 138

f truancy hearings against home schoolers who are legally ompliant with the law

DR RICHMAN May I respond to the truancy for ust a second7 There was a famous court case famous in he home schooling community called Diely versus Diely ersus Wallace Wallace was the superintendent of the lttsburgh Public Schools And some of you may remember lm a very progressive legislator

But when the home school law was being passed n '88 he was running to his Representative Ivan Itkin on't pass this law Incorporate the Pittsburgh Public chool Policy as the law And he resented the law He ought home schoolers at the law Tried to get them to omply with all sorts of requirements

And he finally made his mistake when he harged Casey Diely with truancy She had filed a home ducation affidavit in the middle of the year which is egal under the home education law He charged her with ruancy

So Home School Legal Defense Association epresentmg Casey Diely, sued Wallace for violating her lvil rights and won in an out-of-court settlement The aw cuts both ways It protects home schoolers as well as equirmg things of home schoolers

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Okay So we're

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 139

alkmg about special needs documentation, and truancy rea are the 3 probably biggest offenders of the current aw7

MS LUGG I'd just like to add that

6 percent are home schooled So those upermtendents --13 -- are dealing with their problems n their public school A lot of it I think occurs ecause they don't necessarily understand the law

So for $4, I purchased in my school district he Guide to the PA Home School Law Now in Pennsylvania r -- I'm sorry -- m Texas which is supposedly a free tate I can buy that guide for $25 And explain it to my chool district a free unregulated simple law

REPRESENTATIVE FLEAGLE Okay Thank you, Mr hairman

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you, epresentative Fleagle Representative Armstrong

REPRESENTATIVE ARMSTRONG Thank you I want o thank everyone for coming out today the audience as ell as the panelists One of the things I was able to do ast year -- and this is more so a comment than a uestion -- but I had an intern work for me And I told lm to call every school every college of higher education n Pennsylvania and find out what they're, what they were sking for from home schoolers

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 140

I'll get the, the statistics and the follow-up nalysis of that to the whole committee But it was was retty telling that they actually were not looking for lplomas They look for SAT and ACT scores and to a large egree some type of follow-up portfolio evaluation but not lplomas

So that was pretty telling for me And I'll e sharing that with the committee Thank you That was ust Pennsylvania schools Thank you

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Representative teelman

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Thank you, Mr hairman I wanted to start out with a question to Dr ichman Now, you suggested that perhaps an alternative ould be to keep the portfolios, keep the portfolio valuation by an outside agency but cease to require arents to turn them into the school

That is not something that I think was uggested in any of the panel comments Neither as far as

can tell was the idea of -- sorry I was talking about he panel on this side Neither I think, did I hear any uggestions that the law should continue to require ortfolios but not require anybody to evaluate them

But looking at your alternative, would it not e the case that you would have a certain interest in

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 141

.aintaining that particular paradigm because you run an valuation agency?

DR RICHMAN Yes My own --my wife and I rovide many services to home schoolers And keeping the valuations but not turning in the portfolios would ontinue our accreditation agency, which pays me in usiness giving diplomas So yes I do have a financial nterest

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN In light of some of he studies that have been presented already and m light f the evidence that at this point with a pretty strong ystem of evaluation and reevaluation the schools are not lcking up very many problems at all what's your basis for rguing that we should continue the back end evaluations of enerating portfolios requiring outside evaluation of ortfolios, et cetera?

DR RICHMAN Let me address that in 2 ways irst of all I'm an educational researcher myself And I ave been published in Brian Ray's journal The study that e is citing is one of the most flawed studies that I have ver seen It was based on a survey where only 3 8 2 9 ercent of the home schoolers surveyed responded And only

8 percent of those provided test scores

And the resulting test scores were totally tmospheric and out of line with what you find in most

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tudies 87th national percentile in total reading 82nd ercentile in math Compare that with a more systematic tudy in a state where everybody is tested such as ashmgton State, which has home school testing by the home chool organizations there A study has found that home choolers there scored at the 60, at the 60th percentile

5th percentile in reading and about the 50th percentile m ath

I'm looking for the exact number 64th and

3rd compared to 89th and 83rd He was getting a survey here parents who wanted to brag about how their kids id responded Plus m all these states that don't est -- this is something he mentioned -- where you're not equired to test, if your kids aren't learning to read ou're not going to test them And you're certainly not oing to brag about their scores when you're surveyed by nan Ray

So first of all, I don't believe that business f accountability I believe in the basic principle of adison which stands behind our constitution "If men were ngels, no government would be necessary If angels were o govern man, neither external nor internal controls on overnment would be necessary "

But given the fact that we're not angels e're parents and we're not angels, if we're not having any

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ccountability there's a lot of things we'll say Well,

'm too busy to do it right now I just can't get to it hat can wait And to let their kids go And it can be earning to read in some of these states where kids aren't earning to read 8 9 10

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that there re lots of problems going on in these states

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Well, James Madison aid a number of wise things in his public utterances And

must admit that when we get into doing studies I often emember the way that I used to start the statistics unit hat I taught in Introductory College Biology when I was in he field

I used to start with a quote from Mark Twain o the effect that there are 3 kinds of lies Lies, damned les and statistics It is very important in looking at ny statistical data to know what your sampling population s, as you pointed out And it's very important to know hat comparisons are being made

And certainly as we try to make the best use f the available research m deciding what changes we might ant to make to the home schooling law that's that's a ritically important point to remember

I would also -- thinking about statistics my

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econd and last -- I promise -- question is also about some ata here And it's for Ms Newborn The table the chart f state dollars saved by home schoolers you got that asically by dividing the Department of Education's stimate of the average cost of education per student in he Commonwealth7

MS NEWBORN No, I did not I got that by arbara Sheaffer's report on the average instructional xpenses which would be your variable costs not your lxed costs in plain accounting terms times the number of ome schoolers

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN The problem with hat estimate, as we've seen demonstrated in the aftermath f the passage of the charter school law is that those avings are only realized if so many students transfer out f a given school or district into an alternative education rogram that the district actually does not have to hire a eacher to replace the retiring teacher or does not have to xpand a classroom

Can you demonstrate that there have been any chool districts in Pennsylvania where home schooling has een apparent has been responsible for the removal of so any students from the school district that there have een measurable changes in faculty numbers' Because therwise I'm afraid that that's that the numbers don't

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eflect actual savings that school districts have been able o realize

What they reflect perhaps is lower student to eacher ratios in classrooms but not actual savings to istricts

MS NEWBORN If I had put m the fixed costs

would agree with you But I still have to say that this oes not include buildings

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN We're not talking bout buildings We're talking about teachers' salaries hich are the ma]or element of the school districts' costs

MS NEWBORN Okay It was the average nstructional expenses I believe it was footnoted to be ostly textbooks and teachers So yes I would have to gree with you on teachers But it didn't exclude the lxed costs as far as the actual building, the actual tilities, those things that probably wouldn't change

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN Unfortunately what e've found with the charter schools is if the number of eachers in the school or in the district doesn't change, ou don't see significant changes That's why nfortunately Philadelphia School District is part of why hiladelphia is hemorrhaging

MS HUDZINSKI May I answer here please7

'm not supposed to know this But there is a school

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istrict in Franklin County -- and it will remain ameless -- at which in private school board meetings the omment has been made that if all of the home schoolers ere to enroll in school, the next year they would have to uild another building

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE STEELMAN It would be very nterestmg to know the school district and check that out

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you epresentative Grucela

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA Thank you I've been lttmg here thinking about this diploma business And I onfess I don't know a whole lot about the home school law urrent home school law But I have a question about the lplomas

If the home school -- as I understand it nder current law, it's possible that a home schooled ndividual might not have a diploma, is that true7 I robably should have asked this question of the first panel ecause they had the attorneys

What if I -- my guess here is that this is robably very minuscule My guess is that home school tudents go on to higher education probably the ercentage is probably probably 100 But what about those ho might not go on to higher education don't have a

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lploma7 Suppose they go for a job and the job requirement s a high school diploma and they're denied the job Could hat happen9 That does happen7

DR RICHMAN Oh yeah

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA But they have no edress in the courts or anything7 I mean they've been ome schooled They have great grades They meet all the ssessments They meet all the scores

DR EAGLESON Just to add a comment to that s that although on occasion that does happen the typical xperience for a home schooler who doesn't want to go to ollege, most parents give diplomas We gave our children lplomas And in fact I'll have to say it chagrined me ome to hear Howard say that the diploma I gave my children as a joke

That seems like a position you can't take ither my wife and I are capable of teaching our children r we aren't If we are then we ought to be able to cknowledge when they've succeeded And if we aren't, we houldn't do it at all

But beyond that the overwhelming record of ome schoolers both in Pennsylvania and across the nation s that when they go in and apply for a job the fact they an fill out the application and it looks neat and you can ead it almost negates whether you have a diploma or not

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hey get a job

(Applause )

MS HUDZINSKI There was an article m the uman Resources Journal that was an interview with the ersonnel director of Chick-Fil-A And his perspective on hat -- and I'm understating it by a great deal -- was that e would prefer to have a home schooled student working for lm any day of the week

The reputation that home schooled students ave in the work force is building and is well-earned and ell-deserved The issue with the diplomas however, is hat the state will not recognize the diploma that a parent ssues despite the fact that the experience of employers nd colleges is that these children are doing these tudents are doing just fine just fine

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA I agree And that as a good answer And my real question Every once in a hile you run into somebody who just, you know no matter hat, reads the line that says you have to have a high chool diploma

And the best qualified person that's filled ut the application extremely neatly and you knew that ould be the best person but they said, well, the line here says you don't have a diploma You meet people like hat in life I wouldn't be one of them But you do meet

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 149

eople like that in life

DR RICHMAN Yes One of the issues that's emg worked out now is home schoolers in the military he military has a 5-year program where they're testing out ow well home schoolers do There's already been a ltuation where it's been abused

What happens is a high school graduate comes n to a military recruiter He doesn't have any kind of lploma I'm sorry A high school dropout comes in to a llitary recruiter He doesn't have any kind of diploma o the recruiter says, If you just had a home school lploma then you get in the military

So the home school diploma appears, and then his person goes in the military And dropouts don't do ery well in the military They drop out of school and hey drop out of the military They often can't handle the echnical courses they take m the military So they don't ast long

And so the military then is getting an mpression of how home schoolers are based on who the eople are who claim to be home schoolers when they get nto the military Here m Pennsylvania we have a ltuation where any home school organization any rganization, any of these people at the table, CHAP atholic Home Schoolers of Pennsylvania Pennsylvania Home

JENNIFER P McGRATH RPR (570) 622-6850 150

ducation Network, could start a diploma program and make ure that their members have diplomas

And they can make sure by doing so that no ropout can claim to be a home schooler easily And it rotects our diplomas

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA Thank you Just as n aside to that I used to teach And it used to always other me when a kid was a problem kid or something, they'd lways say for one of a better term, let's put all the bad uys in the military That used to bother me because with

11 the bad guys in the military, they might take us over

wasn't sure we should do that

I have one other question on diplomas If I nderstand this correctly then if the law says to teach o be a home school parent, you must need this diploma hat if you were a home schooler, are you negated from and ou have no diploma, are you negated from home schooling our child9

MS HUDZINSKI The PDE policy on that right ow is that they will recognize a diploma organization's lploma for purposes of home schooling According to Sarah earce -- and the letter that she wrote stating this is in he handout that I gave you --a school district may very ell contest that equivalency declaration

And given the hostility of some

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upermtendents towards home schooling and towards home choolers, I think that that will be a real issue and it's ne that will not die Unless the state takes the steps to cknowledge parental recognition of graduation equirements, we will continue to have this battle with lplomas in the next generation

When my kids protested me coming today because

've been not paying attention to them while I was writing y testimony I pointed out to them that this battle is for y grandchildren

(Applause )

DR RICHMAN Interestingly enough Mary and I oth included the very same letter in our testimony That etter appears on page 9 in my testimony It's addressed o me by Sarah Pearce at the Department of Education uote It is the opinion of the Pennsylvania Department of ducation that individuals who either receive a diploma rom an organization recognized by PDE to award a home ducation diploma or receive a letter from the upenntendent of the residence school district indicating ompletion of the requirements for graduation from a home ducation program per Section 1327 1(d) of the Pennsylvania chool Code are qualified to become a supervisor of the ome education program

That means in the opinion of the Department

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hose who receive a diploma from one of our organizations r the superintendent signs that this person completed his ducation in a home education program are qualified to each their own children

Now what Mary is saying is quoting the very nd of this "As you know, Dr Richman PDE may establish his is their opinion on this matter However local chool district board of directors and solicitors may hold

different view and establish their own policy regarding he definition of equivalent since it is not clearly stated n the law or established in legal cases "

Now this is true My own experience is hough when you get a court case and you supply something rom the Pennsylvania Department of Education, the school istrict says this person wasn't qualified with a diploma nd then you have the Pennsylvania Department of Education aying In our opinion this person is usually the person ms that court case

It may take a court case like that if a school istrict decides to challenge one of these diplomas

DR EAGLESON If I could just comment on hat For me the bigger issue is what about those of us arents who are issuing the mom and dad diploma9 Again I ave to say that I think that if I'm qualified to teach my hildren I'm qualified to say when they're done

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And that really seems to me to be the issue because what we're seeing here is even if you go to the ixtra time and trouble to get one of these, quote the tate-recognized diplomas as I understand that, about a hird of the home school graduates in Pennsylvania bother o get one of those diplomas The other two-thirds of us

.o not

And then the question becomes, Can my aughter can my son, can they teach under the current ennsylvania law? I've spoken at length about this with

SLDA lawyers several of them And they've basically aid, We'll go to the Supreme Court whatever it takes

We believe that that diploma counts And if t requires long litigation we're going to do it And I hink that has to be our standard unless we rewrite the law o recognize the parental rights to educate their children

MS NEWBORN There is one last story I'd like o tell about discrimination with the diplomas and PHEAA

friend of mine a single mother was graduating a child n 2 months I believe this is in somebody's ocumentation It didn't fit well with mine

Two months before graduation, her evaluator aid in order for your child to get PHEAA funding, you ither have to do 1 of these 3 things The GED She said he didn't want the stigma of the GED attached to her

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hild The superintendent letter Those friendly uperintendents out there wouldn't sign it There aren't hat many of them that will Or purchase a diploma

There is something fundamentally wrong with a ystem that forces the low income to purchase a product rom a company in order to get federal or state ssistance

(Applause )

DR RICHMAN Representative Nailor may I espond9

REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA I only had one omment At the end you may respond, Dr Richman I just ant to say, Mary, I commend you for that vision for your randchildren and beyond You know there was a story once hat President Kennedy saw a tree that he really liked nd the White House gardener said to him, It would take 100 ears for that tree to look like that And he said Well n that case you better plant it now

DR RICHMAN May I respond to --

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Just briefly We do ant to wrap this up

DR RICHMAN Okay I want to just respond a econd The fees of these diploma organizations are very ow Susquehanna charges $25 total, including everything e charge $80 total It comes with a high school student

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ewsletter

And I think that Maryalice was insulting every ingle member every single of our graduates when she said hat they purchase their diploma They work very hard for heir diplomas Thank you

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you We'll lose out the day with Representative Sam Rohrer, the prime ponsor of House Bill 2560

REPRESENTATIVE ROHRER Thank you Mr hairman Representative Nailor, for filling in for oncluding the hearing today I want to thank again those ho are testifying this morning sitting before us I eally do believe that the information that we got combined rom the first panel to the second have been pretty ell-encompassing the issues

Again the questions from the members of the ommittee I think have been very, very good I would just ike to conclude a wrap-up thought perhaps, if just one hmg It seems to me, as we've kind of gone through this ast session here that that there's been a recurring heme pretty much even recurring complementary to the first anel except we have tended to get hung up on the diploma ssue the second go-round And I think that needs to have ust one comment about that from my perspective

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850 156

Now I don't generally do this And I'm not oing to mention anyone's name But just for the benefit

•f the committee members who are sitting here perhaps this lme, an assertion was made that the bill was designed to ake away the diploma option I think that needs to be lade very, very clear That was never the intent of this all never from the beginning And it does not remain the ntent of this bill to this day

Secondly, this bill does not take away the lploma option It provides greater flexibility for arents in determining how they will recognize the ompletion of their children And it simply states that pon completion of a successful home study program that he state has no business nor right to discriminate

Now, I think that's pretty basic and pretty lear It says nothing about diplomas nor diploma rganizations, just like the current law does not And I hink that's a very, very important thing to remember And hat I have suggested even to those who are involved in his specific aspect, to understand that a lot of things ave changed since 1988

In 1988 the issue of diplomas was a major ssue because everybody required them It was a big issue nd the bill the law current law didn't really address t So there was a need somewhat in place for that But

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s Representative Armstrong has shared when his staff ember called the colleges and the universities in ennsylvania which I have also talked to the rganizations we now learn that the the presence of a lploma is not what our colleges and universities are ooking for, particularly then followed up with federal law assage

But frankly they want to see a transcript of rades and performance on SAT or ACT And what's the eason for that"5 The reason for that is that diplomas over hese last 12 years frankly aren't too measurable one gainst the other because whether one like it or not a lploma maybe from Philadelphia or Harrisburg or Pittsburgh r York I mean, whatever, are different from other istricts across the state And that's a fact of life

As a result that issue has not become the ocus of attention but it's the performance of the child nd I think on that basis it has been demonstrated the erformance of home educated children really is stellar nd that's why the colleges are saying I don't need that spect

However granting the understanding that there re parents who do believe that that's an important thing his bill absolutely allows for it And I encourage urrently existing diploma organizations to continue m

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hat they're doing because frankly there are parents out here who choose to want to do that

And this bill is to provide flexibility and a hoice for parents regardless of where they fall in this cheme And that is what this bill does simply And it

Hows everybody who's sitting at this table to essentially ducate your children as you want and end up recognizing hem as you want And that's what a good law m ennsylvania should be all about

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE ROHRER So with that being entioned, I just want to, from my perspective as prime ponsor and those who have helped on bringing this bill to his point, I want to thank all of you folks for coming and eally investing a good portion of your day

But it's very clear I think, to the members f this committee the extent of commitment on all sides of his issue are here today And we just want to take and ake, we want to make the situation better for the parents f this state

This bill would do that And we look forward o continued involvement as we go down this road And with hat, Representative Nailor, Mr Chairman, turn it back ver to you for conclusion of the hearing

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR Thank you

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epresentative Rohrer I just want to thank the presenters or your testimony for your presentations today They ere very professional, both the first panel and the second anel And I think you gave the legislators a lot to think bout a lot more than we knew when we came here today

I want to thank all the people who came from round the state to be here the red and the blue and those f other interests that are here today as well because his is a very important issue It's a very sensitive ssue And you know I don't think in my 14 years in the eneral Assembly I've ever had an informational meeting in ront of quite so many people either So that's something e all --

(Applause )

REPRESENTATIVE NAILOR And as we started off oday you saw we had an awful lot of members from the ducation Committee here They have responsibilities back n their district But they traveled here from around the tate to hear what you had to say today And I think hat's very very important too

So this informational meeting is adjourned I ant you all to have a safe trip home Thank you

(Applause )

(Whereupon at 1 41 p m , the hearing

adjourned )

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I hereby certify that the proceedings and vidence are contained fully and accurately m the notes aken by me during the hearing of the within cause and that his is a true and correct transcript of the same

V JENNIFER P McGRATH

Registered Professional Reporter

y Commission Expires

April 30 2005

ENNIFER P McGRATH RPR O Box 1383 nd & W Norwegian Streets ottsville, Pennsylvania 17901

JENNIFER P McGRATH, RPR (570) 622-6850