How did it all start for you to ascend to the very top of the judiciary?

Anybody to become a judge, you have to be a prominent lawyer; you had to be experienced, somebody recognized within the profession. During those days there was a system we called ‘tap on the shoulder’ or ‘secretive consultations.’ If you are fit, we tap you on the shoulder, ‘can you come and help us, we want you to be a judge, or secretly they consult, whom do you think is fit to be a judge among the lawyers. That is the old system and that is how we were identified. And during that time, you had to reach some level of prominence. I was the director of the Law Development Centre. I was heading an institution of higher learning. I was interfacing with the best brains in the legal profession who were teaching the students. I was interfacing with the judges, the political class, and the military class. So heading an institution gave you a little bit of visibility; and heading a professional institution, because you had to have practical experience, not academic experience.

So teaching at LDC was different from teaching at the university. Lecturers at LDC must have practical experience, substantial, to be able to teach at students how to practice law because the centre provides the bridge between the academic and the practical.

I was lecturer at LDC for 4 years, I was the head of the bar course. A bar course is a very critical stage in the training of lawyers and it is a requisite for practicing law in Uganda. Before I became director, I was a senior lecturer and before that, I had been a senior state attorney in the ministry of Justice, resident in Mbarara. That is where I was identified in 1972 to come and help set up that bar course. We taught the first students. Some of them were Omara Atubo, Justice Twinobujuni. They were 24 students in total. And so I had grown up through the practice, through teaching practical skills, through administration of the institution but in my view I was not ready.

If you read my history, I was director of LDC at age 31. I was requested to become a judge of the high court at 35, and I thought that was too early for.

Ideally, what age should you have been?

At least above 40. When I was asked, I declined until I was told, yes, you have declined, you will just hear the announcement. Who told you that? My friends in the judiciary. One was justice Mulenga and the other James Obol Ochola. Those were the lawyers on the Judicial Service Commission. The Chief Justice at the time was Justice Mohammed Said. The Attorney General was Matias Matovu. As we were here inogurating the court of appeal for Uganda, I was dressed like a lawyer, with a gown, seated at the bar, and the judges were sitting at the bench, the Attonery General and Minister of Justice, MB Matovu announced that His Excellency the President has been pleased to appoint the following judges as judges of the High Court; Justice Benjamin Odoki, Justice Jeremiah Ntabgoba and Justice George Engwau. I was from the LDC, Justice Ntabgoba was the administer general and registrar general and Justice Engwau was chief magistrate in Tororo. You can call us the three musketeers, from different branches of the profession.

Did you envisage yourself serving at the bench?

I did envisage myself given my career pattern. I knew that the next stage for the director of LDC would be the bench because the first director of LDC was a judge of the High Court, Justice Ford and the person I succeeded, Justice Francis Ssekandi was appointed a High Cout judge. So if your predecessor has been appointed a judge, you are almost next. But it was the timing… When I was running the centre, I did not like young people appointed magistrates. We were training magistrates. So I said to be trained a magistrate, you must be 25years. So age was important for me to give a bit of maturity in judgement and wisdom. There is a difference between learning and wisdom. Or knowledge and wisdom. You may have a lot of knowledge but not be wise. So maturity brings a lot of wisdom because of experience. My view was that judges out to be a little mature than the bar. The bar you can be guided by the magistrate or judge. So I thought I wasn’t ready. That was my answer when they asked me to be a judge.

I became a judge in 1978. I got married in 1972. I had my four children and when I became a judge I stopped. I said that is the end. I don’t have time to look after children because this job is too hard. My last born is now 35 years. That is how it is. You see I started planning myself given the challenges of Idi Amin’s time.

What was it like serving during Idi Amin’s reign? It was a big challenge. I was on the other side. LDC was a legal development centre. We did research, studied judgements, wrote commentaries and so on, published Uganda law records. We also were able to study decrees and were able to advise on how to reform the law. Our main concern was to ensure that we protect the rule of law and we ensure that at least a semblance of protection of human rights is recognized within the laws which were made for Idi Amin. Idi Amin never made the laws himself, they were made by lawyers. That is where we had intervention. If you read the laws we made, they were very sober intended to reduce violation of human rights. Idi Amin was not a stupid man. At one time there was rampant robbery. His order was robbers should be shot on the spot. We said there is no such law which authorizes a policeman to shoot on sight. So he said, “Make decree for me.” So a decree was made; the armed robbery suspect’s decree which allowed the security people on reasonable suspicion that a robbery has been committed, to shoot. So there was some sort of regulation of force. And now we have the issue of miniskirts. Idi Amin said all people who wear miniskirts should be arrested where upon we said, there is no such law. Someone was arrested and charged at Buganda Road Court, in fact the magistrate said, for as long as there is no law, these announcements by Idi Amin will remain idle talk. Amin said what? You called my decisions idle talk? Who is that judge? He was the chief magistrate of Buganda Road, Wilson Kityo. To save that magistrate, we advised that a law should be made to regulate. It is under the penal code. A provision was made under a provision like idle and disorderly, you are idle and disorderly if you wear a dress of certain inches below the knee.

That was the miniskirt law. And he kept on saying, oh, people are still wearing miniskirts, so the law was amended to increase the length. Eventually women had to wear what we called midi; long skirts because trousers were banned. So they wore either a long skirt or a long dress.

So basically, the courts played quite a big role to bring down the violation of rights. Issues like when the Asians were expelled, Amin was advised that it is contrary to international law. So he said, okay, can you advise me on how this is done? He was advised and told give these people notice, of 90days, you need to allow them to appoint agents to handle their property, you need to set up an institution, Custodian Board, to take care of their property. And you see, lawyers are so smart, he did not understand that oh, actually, they were preparing for them to return and take back their property. But that was the whole purpose (laughs out loud)…he didn’t understand it. So you see the lawyers were abit ahead of Idi Amin. But of course most people think that those who stayed here were just giving credibility to Amin. That is the charge. But if there had been no lawyers at all, what would have been the consequences?

Amin said he wanted to have all these laws; economic crimes on smuggling, hoarding, over-charging and we said, no there is no such law, court cannot enforce mere declarations. And so a law was made. And then it was made under the economic crimes decree. He also created tribunals by military people and we told him no, it must have a lawyer. So all the tribunals, had a legal advisor who was a magistrate to guide them. But most people think that oh, we collaborated. Some people were acquitted because of legal advise.

Anyway it was a big challenge. You know I was appointed a judge in 1978. So early in 1979, I went to Masaka to do my criminal session. When I was there, at Tropical Inn, I found the hotel full of soldiers, the whole hotel was surrounded. So I asked them, why are you surrounding the hotel, am I a criminal? They said, no we have nothing to do with the judge, the guerillas have arrived they are near Mutukula. So I said can we leave the hotel and I have freedom and peace to try the people here? They said no we are not leaving the hotel. I cancelled the session and returned to Kampala. I could not hold a session under tension and fear. These are true stories. But you can see that without defying anybody, we were able to retain the credibility, the independence and intergrity of the judiciary. You cannot try people in a war-like situation where soldiers are moving around with guns and people are not free.

Of course there were other challenges of people being kidnapped and killed. My predecessor here, Bendicto Kiwanuka who sat in this same chair, and he was kidnapped here and killed. Unfortunately I have a similar first name. my name is Benjami and he is Benedicto. He was professional lawyer, he was a politician, a fairly good gentleman and a human rights activist. Because when he became Chief Justice, he went to prison and released very many people. He was a well seasoned chief justice. He would have made a lot of impact had he lived longer. I remember a judge, some American pressmen came and visited Mbarara barracks and I think they were killed. And it is true, a judge was appointed to head a commission of inquiry, a muzungu a white man. And he investigated and I think he first left the country and then posted the report outside the country thereby almost implicating the military. He was called Geoffrey Jones.

Did you have any personal interaction with Idi Amin?

Yes, I did. I was the head of the LDC, I invited him for graduation and that is how he came to know me. You know these leaders, when you talk, they recognize talent. We had many interactions in many places. It was mandatory when Idi Amin calls a meeting, all heads of institutions, commanding officers, because there were no members of parliament. There was the cabinet, the military council, heads of departments, permanent secretaries, all those had to attend. That is how I went to Nile Mansions to attend this so called trial by OD of Archbishop Luwumu. They laid guns there and said these are the guns you are having, then read a statement and said this is the statement you have written. I had to go there. But after I had seen the trial, we were told to go inside the conference centre that Amin was going to address us. I went away. I was so sick because what trial what that? When you ask people and the people say kill them? It was…sighs….lost for words…I don’t know what I can call it. It was not a confession. But it was a fabricated confession.

I can tell you another incident. I used to cut my hair at that pentacostal building at the corner there. I went there to sit and as I was cutting my hair, Idi Amin came driving a jeep. I know him and he knew me of course. So I said, Your excellency, please let them cut your hair I can wait. He said, no it is your turn and he drove off. I tell you from that day, I never visited that saloon lest he finds me again and he is forced to drive away without being cut. These are life stories. It is not cooked.

You were afraid after that?

I was afraid; I am sitting in a chair where Idi Amin’s hair is cut. I have taken away his opportunity to be cut and he is the head of state; what would he think of me? What I am doing there? Nobody should be there. He is conquerer of the British Empire. What was I doing there. Those were survival instincts. You had to smell a rat and say no, I think that saloon is for the head of state I cannot not go there again. Of course you can say I am coward but I didn’t want another incident to happen where he finds me. But you can see the human side of Amin. He never did anything to me. On the contrary he appointed me a judge.

How did it feel being appointed to the bench by him at a time when political tension and unrest was rife?

You see, you had two alternatives, run out of the country or stay and accept to serve. And I stayed not because I wasn’t offered jobs outside. You know teachers are always known all over the world. You present papers here and there. So I was known in many countries. Actually I was in Zambia (yesterday…interview was done on Thursday April 10, 2013) and I told those people that I was in Zambia in 1973 to organize the east and central Africa conference on law and development. I visited universities to persuade lecturers to come and present papers; Malawi, bostwana, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Kenya, I visited all those countries. I was told if you don’t visit those countries, no one will come to Uganda because of Idi Amin. I organized that conference successfully in 1973 and delegations came to Uganda. You see my training is not typical. I trained in legal institutions and development so I have learnt how to develop institutions, empower them, strengthen them, to relate them to both local level and international. You see I started early to talk about law and development. We have done a lot of things to mordernise the judiciary and so on. so, I was appointed when Idi Amin was getting out of the country. His regime was actually almost falling. I came here [judiciary] in September 1978 and it was already a gone case because he had already invaded Kagera and said he had left there a dog. And that was the cause of his downfall. Basically, I knew he was going and was only preparing for the future. I could say I served Idi Amin for six months; September to April.

What about the liberators? Did they not accuse you of being an Idi Amin judge?

Yes they did but we told them, please can you give us a chance to prove that we are actually well deserved judges, we are experienced, we are intellectually alert and we can compete with anybody who has been in the dispora. So we didn’t go away and we are still here. Those challenges sharpened our intellect and not only survival, you had to be extremely vibrant, innovative, you had to know how to handle difficult situations, to deal with those military people. We were teaching military people military law to teach the soldiers to respect human rights. it was a challenge but we thought we need to build institutions despite the challenges. You see individuals come and go, the most important thing is institutions. Now and forever, institutions is what we must build.

As you bow out of the judiciary, do you feel you leave the institution better off than you found it?

Oh, much better. This judiciary here in Africa is highly respected. In Uganda here, nobody knows how it is respected but if you go to Kenya and listen to submissions during the petition, how many times they quote Ugandan cases we have decided here? Our jurisprudence is robust, is solid. We have very good lawyers here, intellectually and in terms of experience. I don’t have to be here. I could have gone out of the country long time ago. In fact I was offered many jobs outside. I don’t want to say I am exceptional. I just reading a report from Justice Boosa, she has returned and has written a report on the work of the international criminal tribunal for Rwanda. She is just reporting back. Yes, we have judges who are chief justices of other countries. Many judges have wanted to go out but we cannot allow everybody to go. Ssebutinde has gone and that shows quality and credibility of the institution. How many commissions have we done for the people of Uganda?

You’ve done many but we don’t see the reports.

Don’t ask me about what has happened about the commissions but we have held credible and very sensitive commissions.

Where are the reports, why haven’t they been made public? Well, don’t worry, for us we do our jobs as judges because of our skills.

But don’t you think you jobs are rendered futile when you write a report, submit it and that becomes the end of the matter?

Futile? History will tell you whether it was futile (laughs out loud). You see, this is not the end of this country. It is an era. Eras come and go. So if this government does not attend to a report, the report is there. It is evidence. It will inform future readers on what went wrong and how its problems can be solved. It is a documentation of a problem and an analysis of a problem. I am sure it will inform reformers; social reformers, political reformers, legal reformers depending on what report it is.

A lot of public anxiety remains over the way the judiciary has handled certain cases especially with regards to court awards. Actually many believe for instance that state prosecutors put up bad cases so do those who defend the government basically to eventually ensure that court issues huge compensations. How do you respond to those who hold such views.

You need to distinguish between criminal and civil cases. Awards of compensation can be given especially in corruption cases; recovery of property, money and so on. But a lot of compensation is given in civil cases. These are usually disputes between individuals or between individuals and organisations. They are not necessarily between individuals and the state. But you can have those disputes where the state is involved. Now if you are asking me whether it is connivance, I don’t think it is connivance. I think sometimes it is an error of judgment. Because why would a lawyer demand 30billion for standing in court for one day? On what ground? Has he connived with the judge or with anybody? And if that person comes to court and the registrar says oh, sorry I have made taxes and think this is too much and it comes to 10 billion, 1 billion, he has been misled by the lawyer because the lawyer has put his expertise at a very, very high rate and it requires a very experienced judge to bring that award down. I remember there was a reward given to Uganda Blankets when I was at the Supreme Court, I think the registrar had awarded 500million or 5billion. We reduced the fees to 50million only. I said this is sufficient for you to work. How much time did you put in; even if you put in a lot of time, 50 million is enough.

There is this case of Shs 13billion that has got Ugandans pretty angry.

There is no problem. The judges will handle it. You see the registrar is the taxing officer. He does the first preliminary assessment. If you are not satisfied with the registrar, you make a reference to a judge or in the Supreme Court it will be a reference to three judges; you’ve got a reference to one judge, if you are not satisfied, you get a reference to three judges. There is a system of correction for those errors.

Do you think this latest error will be corrected?

I cannot discuss as case which is subjudice because the case is already there.

But really it was strange for court to issue such an exorbitant award for a petition like that. The normal thing basically is that public interest litigation, we don’t award a lot of costs because really everybody is a winner in such cases. There are many precedents on how we have been handling such cases so you don’t have to worry. Those mistakes can be committed; they can be corrected if they are mistakes. That is the beauty of the judicial system. It is not a one stop centre. You don’t go to a court and you get one award and you say yeah I have finished you. Wait for the next level, the next stage; the next round you might regret it. Sorry to talk like this. I don’t want to be legalistic.

Some Ugandans feel you haven’t done enough to exert the independence and influence of the judiciary. In fact some accuse you of not standing up to the Executive’s supposed overbearing influence on the judiciary? How do you respond to that criticism?

Yeah, I agree. I agree, I agree that I have not done what they wanted me to do. I am for achieving results. I don’t speak to the gallery. My style of administration doesn’t speak to the gallery. When I was director at LDC there was no strike, there was no acrimonious failure. When I was chairman of disciplinary committee at Makerere, I dismissed two guild presidents. I don’t think you have had anybody who has done that. There was a lot of order. We changed North Court to Nsibirwa. We installed disciplined at that university. I was member of council. And at LDC I had tough people like Tumwesigye, Bart Katurebe, Karuhanga, Kutesa, they are very tough lawyers. Maria Matembe…those were very tough students. So you see me looking very humble, hmmm…laughs out loud…but in terms of discipline… When I want to talk to the President, I don’t have to tell the press. No. When I went to the president when there was a strike, I didn’t call the press but the president wrote a letter regretting the incident. Where has the President written a letter to the Chief Justice regretting the incident of what he has done? Where? And how was that obtained? By talking to the press? No I just went to State House and said Your Excellency let us resolve this issue once and for all but the judiciary should be allowed to work without interference and he said yes, he agreed. How have I been able to achieve all these things? Where has the executive interfered? In terms of demonstrations? We have made decisions here, sometimes which are actually against government, where has it interfered?

Well, in 2005, security operatives besieged the precincts of the High court and re-arrested freed suspects what later became known as the black mamba fiasco.

Well, yeah, that happened but you wanted me to do what? Resign? I think some people said you resign because Black Mamba had come here. But let me tell you, if I had been here, the situation would have been different. If I had been in the country, the situation would have been different. I wasn’t around. I was in Vienna. I belong to a group of Chief Justices who are fighting corruption within their judiciaries. It’s called the Judicial Integrity Group of about 10 chief justices ollver the world. So we were developing strategies for fighting corruption. Nigeria is included Tanzania and South Africa. So I had gone there to develop what we called the Bangalore Principles of Judicial Conduct. So I wasn’t here.

And why are you certain things would have been different?

You cannot come and play around here when am here. Have you heard any fujo [chaos] when am around here? You come and we show you. When I am here, I am here and I am in charge. Yes. And you cannot command my judges here, you decide the case this way. No. you can write to me yes but have you seen any judge who has been commanded to pass a different decision? They are passing decisions as they like, like the one you are complaining about. But most people when they see a decision against an opposition leader, they think the government has interfered. But which government, and who? The inspector general of police? The commander of the army? The President? Would the President talk to a magistrate in Nabweru or in Jinja? That is below dignity. It happened in another country whch I am not going to mention. Sometimes the chief justice would fly and tell the magistrate, please I want you to decide the case this way. I would not tell the magistrate to decide it this way. I have not commanded anybody because I respect the pricinciples of judicial independence which includes individual independence of a judge, and institutional independence of the judiciary.

So do you think the Black Mamba actually capitalized on your absence?

Definitely. The whole scenario; you know the military was here up to 9pm. Do you think I can be here and be besieged for all that time up to 9? The chief justice can be besieged? Is it possible?

What about the deputy C.J?

Well, the deputy CJ is the deputy C.J. they even carried somebody who had been beaten with a blade on the table. It cannot happen here. You cannot do that to me. How? I don’t want to tell you a few things but you know a coup always happens when the head of state is not around. You see the president of Nigeria was overthrown when he was here. So when the head is not there, a lot of things can happen. I am not trivializing the incident. First of all, the absence gives opportunity to other people but also the handling is very different. Because my channels of communication are at a higher level.

What would you have done to prevent this brazen act?

I would have told them get off. Why do you say they cannot get off? If I tell the commander of the armed foreces or the inspector general of police to remove these people out of my chambers you think they can refuse the order? Let me tell you this, the judiciary doesn’t stop anybody being arrested after he has been released. But you cannot do so on the premises of the judiciary. Go to the market, go to the road, whatever. They find you there and arrest you it is not my business. You can bring a case saying you were released and now you are in court. But the precincts of the courts are sanctified, they are sacred. It’s like an embassy; you don’t go to the American embassy and arrest somebody.

But they did.

Well they did but if I had been here, it would have been a different story. When they told me that there were dogs here in the courts up to night and they were running around with those who left behind saying you cannot do this, you can not do that? I cannot negotiate with you. Who are you? I am a judge and I give my orders. Finished! I came back the following day, met the judges and then went to see the President. Of course if I hadn’t come immediately, the situation would havae been different. It’s the handling, the way you handle a situation is different. I am not just a professional lawyers, I am a manager. I have run many institutions, so I know how to handle crisis situations. There was a situation here, the referendum case where the judges at the court of appeal said there was no government here, that the referendum act was unconstitutional and there was a riot, people went to parlioament to protest. I made a statement immediately and said there is no constitutional crisis, the judiciary will handle it. I was addressing a human rights seminar and made a statement responding to the president. You see that it was a very dangerous case. You have said there is no government, which means you are not there, the judiciary is not there, elections were a sham. Of course you can hold that there is no government. But you see the referendum brought in a new government, there were new elections as a result of that, then the president appointed cabinet, appointed judges, appointed P.Ss, commanders, if there was no government, then all those appointments were invalid. What would be the consequence to the country?

I guess there’d be turmoil? A vacuum?

The military would just come in. it is as simple as that. SO you averted that situation? Many situations I have averted but I cannot tell you. (Laughs out loud)

You can tell, surely, can’t you?

I will tell when I have left. But there are many situations and we use common sense. The law is not as ass, as people say. The law should be used to advance the interests of the people at a given time. If you don’t harmonize, you don’t create peace and instead you cause disharmony. That is where there’s a problem with the law about demonstrations. There is nothing against demonstrations but to what extent do you allow it to become violent and destructive. That is the issue; the balance. There is nothing wrong with demonstrations and so on, even riots, sometimes, as a form of protest. The law says you may peacefully assemble. You have to emphasize peaceful assembly.

There is a tale told about how the Supreme Court handled or it is mishandled the 2006 Kizza Besigye electoral petition. Specifically, Justice Kanyeihamba and the late Justice Oder are on record stating that a decision had been taken to overturn President Museveni’s re-election but somehow the President got wind of the decision and then spoke to you and said please you cannot let this happen. What really happened?

Well, why did those judges decide otherwise if the President wanted them to decide in his favour? Are they super judges? Three judges decided against the President. Are they so strong that the President can only talk to the Chief Justice and the other three were so weak that I can force them to decide in favour of the President? What is the explanation that for them…did I talk to them? They should have told you that the Chief Justice tried to force us but we said no. For us we look for evidence, and that is circumstantial evidence. So if you just say oh maybe the President talked to the Chief Justice, if he talked to the Chief Justice, what happened, what did the Chief Justice do? What evidence do you have because some of those people spill secrets of what happens during conferences which is not allowed. We are not allowed, like when you are accusing the Pope, to disclose what is happening there. So when we have a conference, we are discussing a case, we discuss freely. Everybody discusses freely and says oh no these people did very badly, these did wrong, you know people are allowed to talk. And after all, we say, what is your opinion?

Well they have claimed that the Late Justice Mulenga was actually convinced to change his opinion to save the President and suggested that you said no we shouldn’t overturn this election because it will create turmoil.

Well whoever talks of the Late Justice Mulenga, I don’t know who knows whom he told his views. I know exactly what happened and with due respect to whoever is claiming so, I think he has claimed he was misled and I don’t think a judge should say he was misled by his colleague. So I don’t understand what they are talking about. You see you don’t understand these things. When I come out of court, I make my opinion known to all the judges. In all cases, I will tell them what is my view. I don’t go out and wait for anybody. I am the leader of the court. So I will tell them in my view this activity should be allowed. Finished. I prepare in advance. I am experienced judge; 35 years on the bench is not a short time. So by the time I read the case and by the time we heard the case, like that Besigye case, I already know. So its not for me to wait for the President to tell me. No. it is my experience. When I was a judge, I used to deliver judgements on the spot. And if you come to the Supreme Court, you will hear what I do. After arguments, even in the Supreme Court now, I deliver my judgement there and then. Most of the judgements I deliver on the spot. Most of the judgements in the High Court, I’d delivery the following day. I don’t wait for anybody to give me orders. So to say that the President, goaded me, (laughs)…by the time they had already known my opinion so there was no question of being ordered. For them they take their time, oh let us go and consider. You see in most cases we appoint a rapporteur. After hearing a case, we appoint someone to write the judgment but after you have discussed and he knows the opinion of the court. Then for him his job is just form, to put it nicely but we have already told him this appeal or this case is going to be decided like this. So he is rapporteur and he writes the lead judgement. Now in this petition, normally there is no rapporteur because judges feel sensitive. Everybody writes his judgement. I think that is wrong but we write one simple judgement, a summary judgement. Because if it has got two positions normally there is a contradiction. That is what the public has not understood. That summary judgment has got those who are allowing the petition and those dismissing the petition. What should happen and if I happen to be around, is that you would have the majority opinion written and the minority opinion written, so that you don’t have a contradiction. That is what we have advised the Kenyan people. You either have a unanimous opinion or two opinions. So that is the mistake here. I know the reason why we write that; because some people don’t want to be known that they are on this side or the other. But I think that is wrong. I am one of those people, I will give you my opinion, I will write my judgement and I will make it known. I will not fear anybody.

What would you say to Dr Kizza Besigye who has petitioned the court twice and lost and at the third attempt said he wouldn’t waste his time coming to you guys?

I cannot really help a politician make up their mind. I know many politicians have tried. I know the President of Zambia, Sata, tried many times. There was is another president, the tall man Abdullaih Wade, he had been in the opposition for a very long time. So who knows? You don’t have to come to court all the time, no. and he was very wise not to come to court. I was waiting for him because everybody must be given a chance to present his grievances to court. That is the only way which can help build democracy.

Why do you say he was wise not to have come to court?

Because he feels frustrated when he loses. Raila Odinga, lost narrowly, even more narrowly than Kizza Besigye but he respected the decision of the court and he said there were other issues which needed reform. I think maybe he even had a chance but you can see the decision of the court was unanimous which is more humiliating. Why do you think Besigye should lose heart? He had a split decision. He should be a happy man, don’t you think so? Yeah, he has got some points, something to recognise that he had a chance to win. To me that is positive. But he didn’t want to be frustrated for a third time. You know when you do things three times; I suppose next time maybe he might challenge. But he doesn’t have to challenge. You see in Kenya, even NGOs challenged, even some voters, some institutions challenged the election. Some people can challenge on his behalf. You know you have to weigh the impact of losing a petition and you must then move very fast to appear diplomatic and glamourous as Odinga has been.

Had the court been presented with evidence substantial enough to suggest the alleged vote theft actually influenced President Museveni’s win, would you have overturned the election?

Of course, oh yeah, why not. You see, people don’t know, the most technical knockout you can have on a candidate is to prove that he himself committed a crime. There is no substantial effect there. If you prove that the candidate committed a crime, an electoral offence, the petition is finished. If he proves that, then that is the end of the story. So I don’t see any problem there. The only problem I see, and Kenya has gone beyond us because the petition is supposed to be decided in 14 days. Ours here it is 30days and we think the period is very short. So deciding a petition in 14 days, can you do justice? This is a national constituency, mark you. Evaluating the evidence; unless you are going to be superficial. And the other point is that the by election must be held within 30 days? What qualitative improvement could you have done to the electoral process? Would you change the electoral commission, the register, the presiding officers within 30 days? All that is very….complicated because you need to change the situation on the ground in my view. And I am not saying that we use that for deciding. I am telling you this as a constitutional expert. Those term limits are very short. In other countries, the president is sworn in, then the petition is heard. They take their time and when they over turn it, again they have enough time to organise elections. But here the whole thing is geared to quick-quick, fast-fast as people say in Kikuubo. We have advised in the petitions about the need to increase the period in which to determine these petitions.

What was the environment like when you handled the presidential election petitions?

Oh, it is a tough job. Reading all those affidavits and you are not quite sure whether actually they are not fake or fabricated. The issue of credibility of evidence; the sheer amount of evidence, the quantity, leave aside the quality. I don’t want to dramatize but you know we lost our colleague after deciding that petition, I think before or after. Justice Oder died before he gave reasons. Decision making is not difficult but the sheer amount of work, evaluating that evidence which has come from all sources. For instance reports of the international observers, local monitors, you have to internalize all those reports.

What sort of toll would this tension and work take on your bodies?

I have told you one of my colleagues died. But as you can see I am fairly strong. Teachers tend to be extremely organised and disciplined ahead of everything. I read the whole night.

Really, when do you get to sleep?

By midnight I tend to sleep although sometimes I am responding to international queiries and so on, sending papers and what not. But I am up at 6am.

Do you work out? A little. You cannot survive without working out. You cannot be at 70 like this when you don’t?

You watch what you eat? What’s your favourite meal? I have no health issues so I eat anything really. I like eating, I eat a lot. I eat a lot of local food which I get from the farm; fresh maize, beans, cassava, yams. My favourite is omsimangeni…meaning Kalo and Fish. Laughs out loud. We come from near the lake, there is a port called Majanji. A lot of fish comes from there. So we grew up eating a lot of fish. The story they used to tell us is that we are clever because we used to eat fish. People from that area were said to be very clever. I came from Busia Primary School to go to Kings College Budo.

What did mean for someone like you coming from Busia Primary to head to Budo?

It was a big challenge. You know reaching that place and carrying my suitcase on my head to climb the hill told me that I had to be humble because I thought I was now a big man going to Kings College Budo, the best school in Ugnada, and I have now arrived. Climbing that hill with that suitcase on your head really humbles you. That was 1960. Actually I was blamed for putting my choice there because there was a strike in 1959 where a number of prominent people participated but I am not mentioning their names.

No worries, I know former Prime Minister Apollo Nsibambi was one of them.

Laughs out loud. I am not mentioning anybody’s name. Anyway I was told you man, you are going to a school which has been closed? I said I have to go to Kings College Budo. It was a big challenge. I was one of the pioneers at the Junior Secondary School they had just started there.

Who were some of the guys you went with to School?

A lot of my colleagues I started with have died. I had my good friend Jolly Joe Kiwanuka’s son. He died. Mugalasi who used to be a dramatist; he died. My friends still alive, there is Wilson Wanyama, who used to be the P.S at Public Service, Prof Erisa Ochieng, Prof Turyamuhika, Francis Ayume, Mathew Rukikaire, Justice Ogoola, but many of these came to finish their A level from Budo.

When did you wear your first pair of shoes if you can recall?

Wearing shoes or good shoes? by the time I went to Budo I had good shoes. I was in the Junior School which was boarding and I had shoes. I know there were people who went to Budo and they did not have shoes but I cannot mention them. But I came from a working class family if you like. My father used to work in a hospital as a medical assistant. So you can say he was amusawo. So he knew the value of dressing a person well. But don’t celebrate too much because by the time I went to Budo he had retired.

How many siblings do you have in your family?

6 boys and four girls. It is a big family. My young brother who follows me is a medical doctor. Our father was a medical man so we said we must have a medical doctor in the family. And I told him not to come to Budo. He stayed in Nabumali for 6 years. Wapakabulo left him there after S.4. They were in the same class. He is James Wafula and the other was James Waphakabulo. But he studied in Makerere here but he is now in London. He ran away during Amin’s time. You know what he said? He refused to go for graduation, that Amin was not educated he could not put a cap on his head. At that time, whoever was called would go kneel and they would put a cap on his head. So he run away and went for further studies and never came back. But all my brothers are all graduates. I am the eldest brother. I have got 3 girls older than me.

As you leave office, what sort of person would you want to see stepping in your shoes?

Oh, why should I prescribe the criteria for the chief justice because you have to know the duties of the chief justice first of all. The chief justice is the head of the judiciary and also responsible for supervising all courts. So first of all, he has to be an administrator, a manager. Secondly he has to be the president of the Supreme Court, so he must be a seasoned judge. He must be able to lead other judges in the Supreme Court and lead to the development of the jurisprudence or the development of the law and guide all courts in the country. So to perform these two roles, he needs to be reform oriented in other words he must evaluate how the system is performing, strategize, not only change the law, but also change the way of doing things. So reforming the judicial system and reforming the law and procedure. The chief justice is also chairman of the rules committee, which makes all the laws for all the courts in the country. So he has to be a fairly experienced jurist to deal with those challenges. Also I think there is a need for somebody who is acceptable across the board. I am not saying this so you misunderstand me to say, oh yeah he must be liked by the President, by Besigye, by the media, by parliament but you are actually relating with all these institutions, you must also be able to protect all of them without discrimination. I don’t know whether the president is the fountain of honour, but the Chief Justice is the fountain of justice. So everybody looks to you. My door is open alright, but in terms of how you relate with all these people, nobody should say that you are actually serving, one leader or one institution or one party or one section of the population.

DO you see people with all these credentials? Oh yeah, there are many people in the judiciary. But we just have to make sure we make the right choice. I cannot give you the names but even outside the judiciary I am sure there are people who can be chief justice. The pool is open; don’t think of only here at the judiciary. You can look elsewhere; at the universities, the bar, the ministry of justice because this person is the head of the third branch of government.

Let’s speak about corruption in the judiciary. Recently the Uganda Law Society called for an inquiry into corruption in the judiciary. What do you think is the best solution to this vice?

You need to understand the strategies. First of all there is preventive aspect and then correctional. The preventive aspect is about the polity, the community. Somebody has said in a cynical manner that a country gets the judiciary it deserves. So if all of you are corrupt and you are busy moving around corrupting clerks and whoever you find on the road, including lawyers and so on. When we were growing up there was something called moral rearmourment. So we need moral rehabilitation of the people of Uganda. I think we are sick. The people are a strong pillar in terms of fighting corruption. The institutions are another pillar. You can have the IGG, the police, the judiciary to fight the vice. But who actually corrupts? Who gives bribes? Who solicits or who offers corruption? Who is the culprit? The moral fibre of the people is very important. When I was in some offices, people used to bring me money and I told them go and hire the best lawyer, we shall meet in court. When I was DPP, people would say if you don’t help me, I am finished I think I am going to prison. I would say, no I cannot judge you, my job is to take you to prison, get the best lawyer, we shall meet in court. That’s all. So the moral fibre, the strength and intergrity of the people is very important of those in institutions. They have to be strong because if you are as weak as the person who gives you money then you are finished. There has to be a difference between me and you. Actually when I told this story to someone, he said you are DPP you should have arrested that person. I said no I am not that character. Because this man has a serious charge against him, you now want again to put another charge against him? Teach him a lesson that a bribe is not acceptable, go back with your money but the only way to use your money, hire a lawyer. So you have given him positive advice. Of course arresting him is the way of doing it, but some people are just ignorant they think you cannot get anything without corruption. I think we need to educate the public and tell them that justice is not for sell, certain things you don’t have to bribe or buy anybody. People used to tell me that if you don’t know anybody you cannot get a job. I said no. I never knew anybody when I was given jobs. I was just asked to do jobs. When I was asked to be chairman of the constitutional review commission, I was never in the bush. I was not there. I said haven’t been to the bush like my colleagues here and I don’t know what they want and I am not interested in politics. They said you are the right person you go and help us write this. The false conception that you cannot get anything without money out to be banished in the minds of people. For us we grew up with little money. With little money as a civil servant, and I lived by my little money. But I know how to get big money if I want; lawfully. But I have only to serve the country as chief justice. There are many people who want to give me big money to leave the country.

In fact we are told you are headed for big money in much greener pastures as you retire. Is that true?

I am not going anyway but I have part time jobs.

What next for you?

I will be in the country. I will remain here. I will be an elder in the country. I can be consulted. I will write my books. I give advice to many countries which need my advice. Many people are waiting for me to go and help them in a number of areas. So I will be going and coming back. Assuming you don’t give me a big job in Monitor.

What would you do for us?

I can write stories. And I write very well; simply. You don’t know what would come around. So I have not necessarily put up a program for when I will retire. I will have to settle down, organise my books, organise my library, organise my residence. I live in a government house now, I have to organise my house. Can’t you see, that is a full time job. So I think there will be a lot of activity for me but I want to rest. I have a few international assignments, yes, on going but they are part time. But who knows what will happen? You know only God can determine someone’s future.

What sport do you play?

Now I don’t play any sport. But before I played games you cannot imagine. I played rugby. Some of us wanted to do new things at Budo like basketball which the Americans introduced there, rugby and boxing. But the traditional things were like cricket. Hockey came afterwards but cricket, football, athletics, swimming, those were traditional. When I went to Budo, when I reached there, I was like oh dear, this is Kings College? I was put in Mutesa House, the oldest dormitory, it was just brick, inside it was not even plastered at that time and on the floor it was just bricks. The windows were black and wooden. This is Kings College Budo? But people were so proud. Oh, people were so proud being there and when you went out people respected you. OH, you are from kings college budo? I have a grandson now, the son of my first born. He is at namilyango now. That is where his father went from Budo. Sometimes I laugh at him but that is another issue. Anyway he said, grandpa you went to Kings College and I said yes, but you were wearing shorts and for us we wear trousers. He thinks we were old fashioned. He is in S.2. Laughs out loud.

Well, sports, I used to do a lot of things but now you know because of restriction you cannot move freely; you can move but you know you have security all the time. But I will start playing golf, and other games; tennis.

Outside work and your busy schedule, how do you spend your time and what sort of activities do you indulge in?

Oh, I was a member of the Budo knightingales, the elite group of singers at Budo. I used to even sing with the Kampala Singers. I sang for Obote when he wedded in Namirembe. There were three schools, Mwiri, Budo and Gayaza in 1962. So I play some music. I am a good painter, a good artist. Yes those are my hobbies. And like my colleague Justice Ogoola, I am a poet. We studied literature together. I do a lot of poetry and I like drama. I acted shylock. He is not a good character because he wanted to cut off somebody’s flesh for his money. So drama, music, all that. I farm; I go to the farm on weekends. I have a few cows, some goats, some sheep, some chicken. At one time I had a cow in my other residence, zero grazing, 20 litres, a fresian but I took it to the farm. I have a small farm in Mukono at Mbalala.

What irritates you? Oh people who are slow. I don’t like slow workers; people who don’t have time framing and time management and who don’t deliver. You must deliver if I give you a job.