PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES

Public Bill Committee

SERIOUS CRIME BILL [LORDS]

Sixth Sitting Tuesday 20 January 2015 (Afternoon)

CONTENTS

CLAUSES 70 to 73 agreed to. New clauses considered. Adjourned till Thursday 22 June at half-past Eleven o’clock. Written evidence reported to the House.

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The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairs: †KATY CLARK,PHILIP DAVIES

† Baker, Norman (Lewes) (LD) † Malhotra, Seema (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co- † Beresford, Sir Paul (Mole Valley) (Con) op) † Bradley, Karen (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of † Miller, Maria (Basingstoke) (Con) State for the Home Department) † Pincher, Christopher (Tamworth) (Con) † Buckland, Mr Robert (Solicitor-General) † Reed, Mr Steve (Croydon North) (Lab) † Champion, Sarah (Rotherham) (Lab) † Simpson, Mr Keith (Broadland) (Con) † Stunell, Sir Andrew (Hazel Grove) (LD) † Coffey, Ann (Stockport) (Lab) † Wheeler, Heather (South Derbyshire) (Con) † Dromey, Jack (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) † Wilson, Phil (Sedgefield) (Lab) † Hinds, Damian (East Hampshire) (Con) † Latham, Pauline (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) Fergus Reid, Oliver Coddington, Committee Clerks † Llwyd, Mr Elfyn (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) † McDonald, Andy (Middlesbrough) (Lab) † attended the Committee 157 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 158

stand up to what is going on are all points that should Public Bill Committee lead to a reconsideration and a close look at the offence of encouragement to commit FGM. We will therefore Tuesday 20 January 2015 press new clause 28 to a vote. Question put and agreed to. Clause 70 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. (Afternoon)

Clause 71 [KATY CLARK in the Chair]

KNIVES AND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS IN PRISONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Clause 70 The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION PROTECTION ORDERS the following: Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Government new clause 11—Prevention or restriction Bill. of communication devices by prisoners etc Government amendments 7, 12 and 29 2pm Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab): It is a pleasure I wish to make a few concluding remarks on clause 70. I to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. I will would welcome the Minister’s responses to a range of focus on new clause 11 and the use or otherwise of issues that I raised, but I would like to comment on one mobile phones in prisons. I will preface that by saying in particular and explain why we will be pushing new that we support the proposals elsewhere in this clause to clause 28 to a vote. The Minister talked about the make it a criminal offence to possess an offensive weapon Serious Crime Act 2007, which contained measures to in prison and have that treated in the same way as it bring prosecutions for encouraging someone to commit would be if the weapon was held by somebody intending an offence. She suggested that, while we have provisions to use it outside prison in a public place. within legislation, we could possibly be contravening The previous Government banned the use of mobiles the European Convention. in prison, but we certainly support measures to disconnect In the European Convention, there are two competing phones that are smuggled in and used illegally. I question rights. We have made a strong argument that encouragement whether the Government are doing all that they can to commit an offence is not an issue of free speech. It is outside legislation. not the expression of an opinion or political belief; it is an encouragement to commit an offence and should be Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con):I bring the treated with seriousness under our criminal law. Shadow Minister’s attention to a small private Member’s The Minister may be familiar with Professor Graham Bill that went through, which ensures that facilities are Virgo’s report and the Archbold review, which criticised available—they can be used legally in prisons—to block the measures in the Serious Crime Act. They said that it phones digitally and take the numbers coming in and made it harder to bring such a prosecution; that it had going out. Perhaps he is going down a path that is been easier before under the common law of incitement, already covered. where the defendant had communicated the encouragement to commit an offence, but the offence might or might Mr Reed: I suspect that his Front-Bench colleagues not have taken place. The issue of whether or not the who tabled new clause 11 may be going down that offence took place makes it harder to bring a prosecution route, but I believe there are issues with the cost of such under the Act. That is why it is increasingly important approaches. I want to look at the cost of what is being for us to consider whether the public encouragement of proposed compared to alternatives. We do not necessarily an offence, whether or not a person is identified as a have to go down the legislative route to prevent prisoners victim, can still lead to a prosecution. The case going having mobile phones in prison. Will the Minister enlighten through Southwark at the moment is an offence under us about the findings of a piece of research that the section 44 of the Serious Crime Act, but there is a Ministry of Justice commissioned last year at a cost, I particular identified individual. understand, of around £70,000 into why and how prisoners The second complexity with the Serious Crime Act 2007 are able to obtain and use mobile phones that are and its inchoate offences is that it requires a different smuggled into prison? charge to be brought—as far as I understand—for From the Government’s figures, I understand that different offences. If one person encourages a room of between 2013 and 2014, 7,400 mobile phones or SIMs 50 parents to commit FGM and 10 go off and do it, were seized in prison. That is an awful lot, given that that person would have a strong defence that they did they are not supposed to be there. Not all prisons have not believe that it would happen. Then there would be the problem on the same scale. It appears, from the fact not just one prosecution—they would be charged with that some prisons seize no mobiles at all whereas others 10 offences. The complexities of the existing legislation, seize hundreds, that different approaches to preventing the need to intervene now in relation to the cultural prisoners from getting their hands on mobile phones context in which FGM is taking place, and the request may be more effective than others. It may be worth from campaigners and communities for the tools to looking at what best practice is, and see how we can 159 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 160 share that across the prison establishment to ensure that on Government new clause 11, which deals with the use prisoners’ opportunities to get hold of mobile phones, in prisons of illicit mobile phones. The unauthorised which they should not have, are limited or even removed. use of mobile phones in prisons presents a range of It is clearly much more cost-effective to prevent prisoners serious risks to the security of prisons and to public from getting their hands on mobile phones than to safety. They can be used to plan escape or indiscipline block them or go through the processes that are necessary or to conduct serious organised crime, including drug to cut them off so that they cannot be used. Will the imports and serious violence, from behind bars. Minister tell us how long it would take, if and when the clause is enacted, to disconnect the mobile phone that is In 2013, the use of an unauthorised mobile phone being used by a particular prisoner? Presumably, that was instrumental in the escape of two prisoners. In process will involve identifying the mobile phone being 2009, a prisoner was sentenced to 18 years for organising used, making an order to the courts, securing a restriction cocaine smuggling from his prison cell using a mobile order on the mobile phone operator, and requiring the phone. In the same year, a gang leader was jailed for life mobile phone operator to take the action that is necessary for arranging the murder of a rival gang member using to cut the service off. Court processes do not tend to be a mobile phone in prison. And just last week hon. quick. During the ongoing process and throughout any Members may have seen the reports of a prisoner in appeals that the prisoner may be able to lodge, it is Wandsworth prison who used a mobile phone to arrange entirely feasible that the prisoner will get another SIM the importation into this country of sub-machine-guns card and have access to the outside world via that; then from Germany. I am sure that the whole Committee the whole process would have to start again. would agree that the use of unauthorised mobile phones Although we welcome the provisions in the legislation, by prisoners is unacceptable. I hope that the Government will make more efforts to The National Offender Management Service uses a focus on preventing prisoners from getting their hands range of measures to prevent mobile phones from getting on mobile phones and SIM cards, and learning from the into prisons, as well as seizing mobile phones and SIM prisons that are doing the job better than others so that cards from prisoners. As the shadow Minister, the hon. that information can be shared right across the system. Member for Croydon North, said, it recovered in 2013 some 7,400 SIM cards and handsets from prisons in Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I have England and Wales. NOMS uses a range of techniques been contacted by the Prison Reform Trust, which has to detect and seize phones already in prisons, including expressed concern about how the clause will operate in detection technology and regular cell and prisoner searches. practice. I recognise that there is presently a lacuna in However, despite the success of those approaches, as the law regarding knives and weapons in prison, and mobile phone technology advances and the size of that clearly needs to be addressed. In 2012, 14,511 assaults handsets decreases, it is becoming easier for prisoners to were recorded in prison, but only 1,881 were recorded conceal illicit phones and move them around the prison as involving a weapon of some sort. In the three preceding estate. years, only 12% of the total number of recorded assaults involved the use of a weapon and, according to the It is a criminal offence to possess or use an unauthorised National Offender Management Service’s safety and mobile phone in prison, but it is not always possible to custody statistics of 2012: attribute that use to individuals, and prosecutions are “The majority of assault incidents do not involve weapons. Of rare. My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley drew those that do, most involve items that may be found to hand. the Committee’s attention to the private Member’s Bill Relatively few involve a designed for purpose weapon.” to block mobile phones. The powers conferred on prison As I have said, I do not disagree with the motivation governors relate to the blocking or detection of mobile behind clause 71, but I do share the Prison Reform phone signals in prisons. The use of blocking equipment Trust’s viewpoint that sanctions against assailants should has been successful in some prisons, but it would cost form part of a wider strategy to reduce violence in up to £300 million to install blocking technology across prisons. It is surely of great concern that the past year the prison estate. Given the rate at which that equipment has seen a 27% increase in serious assaults in prisons. can become technologically obsolete, that investment Assaults by prisoners on officers have also risen by 12%. would not render value for money across the whole There are fewer officers available and an increase in the estate. number of prisoners. That usually means that the figures will rise further still. In contrast, our new clause will enhance the weapons available to prison governors and others and enhance Can the Minister give an assurance that the Ministry the ability of NOMS to tackle mobile phone use in will examine all aspects of how it might reduce violence prisons with a targeted, flexible and financially manageable in prisons? I am minded to table an amendment along approach. New clause 11 will enable the Secretary of these lines on Report, but I would welcome the Minister’s State or, in Scotland, the Scottish Ministers, to make comments on the need for a holistic approach. regulations conferring a power on the civil court to make an order—a telecommunications restriction order The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the —requiring a mobile network operator to disconnect Home Department (Karen Bradley): This Government those SIM cards and handsets that are in prisons without are determined to take the necessary steps to improve authorisation. NOMS or an appropriate law enforcement security in prisons. Clause 71 does that by creating a agency will identify those phones that are being used new offence of unauthorised possession in prison of and present the evidence before the civil courts. If a knife or any other offensive weapon. I will come on satisfied that a phone is being used inside a prison shortly to talk about the points raised by the right hon. without authorisation, the courts will make a Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, but let me focus now telecommunications restriction order, directing that the 161 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 162

[Karen Bradley] A frequently used weapon is a plastic toothbrush with two or more razors melted into the head. Other weapons relevant mobile network operator or operators disconnect include screws inserted through the base of deodorant the phone from their networks, putting it beyond normal bottles, snooker balls, cans or other heavy items inserted operational use. inside socks to produce a cosh, broken chair legs, broom The shadow Minister asked about time frames for handles, wooden or plastic items whittled into a point, getting a phone or SIM card disconnected. This is still and makeshift or real knuckle dusters. being worked through with Her Majesty’s Courts and The new provision in relation to the possession of Tribunals Service. We will set it out fully when we knives in prison will provide the Prison Service with a introduce regulations under the new clause, but I absolutely further option when dealing with this problem. It does agree that we need to make the process as quick as not follow that offenders will be prosecuted in every possible. case. It will continue to be possible to deal with possession Subsection (3) of the new clause sets out the matters of a knife through internal disciplinary arrangements, that must be included in the regulations, including and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we need provisions conferring rights on affected persons to make a flexible approach. Clause 71 provides for this. representations and to appeal. Question put and agreed to. Clause 71 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. 2.15 pm Subsection (4) sets out additional matters that may be covered in the regulations, including the enforcement Clause 72 of orders. This element of the regulation-making powers is discretionary, as it may not prove necessary to make provision in respect of all the matters listed in subsection (4). PREPARATION OR TRAINING ABROAD FOR TERRORISM For example, in relation to the enforcement order, if as Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the we are minded, the normal rules governing contempt of Bill. court apply, then there would be no need to make bespoke provision in relation to enforcement. The regulation-making power is subject to the affirmative The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss procedure, so the regulations will need to be debated Government amendments 10, 11 and 13. and approved by both Houses before they can come into force. The mobile network operators support this legislation. They have told us that they welcome a clear The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland): It is a legal framework which requires them to act. The new pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. power provides that clarity. I am sure that in discussing this clause all members of There are, of course, legitimate circumstances in which the Committee will be conscious of the very real threat prison staff and others may need to have a mobile that we continue to face from terrorism, particularly in phone in their possession while working in or visiting a relation to Syria and Iraq and to individuals both here prison. This is recognised in the scope of the new clause. and abroad who seek to disrupt the peace and security It is clear from subsection (1) that the power relates only of this country. The tragic events in France last week to telecommunications devices used by persons “detained are a salutary reminder of these dangers. in custodial institutions”. Prisoners themselves have Terrorism is, of course, not new, but the struggle to access to approved fixed-line telephones so that they keep the public safe from harm today is more difficult can keep in contact with their families, friends and legal than ever due to the continuous and rapid diversification advisers. There is no justification for prisoners to use of terrorism. It is an evolving threat. Many of the illicit mobile phones, and this amendment will be an threats that we face today have significant overseas effective tool in the fight against the use of unauthorised connections. The places where UK-linked individuals, phones for criminal purposes. and those seeking to harm UK interests, may now be The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd training or otherwise preparing for terrorism are increasingly asked about the problem of knives and other weapons likely to be located abroad, hence the reason for this in prisons. NOMS is committed to reducing violence in clause. prison. Prisons already have in place security measures Syria, in particular, remains the world’s No. 1 destination to detect and deter weapons, including metal detectors for violent extremists, posing not only a regional threat and wands, frequent searching programmes of both but a wider threat. The issue of individuals from the prisoners and locations within the prison, as well as UK seeking to engage in combat and conflicts abroad is intelligence systems to target searches. There is a sadly not new, nor is it specific to Syria. Members will comprehensive programme of work under way to reduce be aware that, currently, the biggest challenge to our violence and the effect of violence, including, for example, peace and security comes from ISIL, which is using a the protection of staff by stab-resistant vests and deterring combination of terrorism and brutality to hold large attacks by introducing body cameras to record prisoner swathes of Syria and Iraq and now occupies a third of interaction. Work is also being undertaken with the those countries combined—that is an area almost the Crown Prosecution Service and the national policing size of Great Britain. Those events further demonstrate lead in developing a new joint protocol for reporting foreign fighters’ fluidity of movement, but they represent crimes committed in prison. only a portion of the terrorist organisations and individuals Apart from the occasional weapons stolen from who seek to harm the west and the UK, so it is absolutely workshops or smuggled into prison, prisoners most right that the Government take steps to respond to commonly manufacture weapons from everyday items. that challenge. 163 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 164

The House has recently agreed measures in the Counter- that the world stand together and act, not least because Terrorism and Security Bill that will provide new legal so many of those involved are leaving our shores to powers and increase the capability of our law enforcement engage in barbarism. In so doing, they pose a threat not and intelligence agencies so that they can disrupt individuals just in Syria and Iraq but when they return to this involved in terrorist activities and, importantly, prevent country. others from being radicalised in the first instance. The The phenomenon of foreign fighters is not a new one, measure before the Committee is intended to achieve a yet the number of volunteers leaving parts of Europe to similar end. Clause 72 amends section 17 of the Terrorism join the Syrian conflict is quite unprecedented. The Act 2006 to extend the territorial jurisdiction of UK Government’s own estimation is that at least 500 people courts over the specific offences of preparation and have left the UK to join the conflict. Indeed, while some training for terrorism, which are contained in sections 5 other smaller countries such as Belgium and Denmark and 6 of the 2006 Act. The effect of the measure will be have contributed higher numbers relative to their size, that, where UK-linked individuals and those who seek Britain is among the countries in Europe that are to harm the UK do anything outside this country that contributing the largest overall numbers of foreign fighters would constitute an offence under sections 5 or 6, they to the conflict in Syria. can be prosecuted on their return to the UK, thereby The chilling sound of a familiar accent in those who ensuring that they no longer remain beyond the reach have filmed their atrocities and made them widely available of the law. As a safeguard, any prosecution under this online brings home just how extreme some UK citizens measure will require the express consent of either the have become. It is estimated that, of the 500 people who Attorney-General or me. In addition, for a prosecution have embarked in fighting abroad, up to half may have to be brought, the Crown Prosecution Service must be returned. It is true to say that some of the returnees satisfied that there is sufficient evidence and that prosecution have come back bitterly regretting their involvement. is in the public interest. However, there are equally those who return tasked with carrying out acts of terror. They come back to Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): I thank the recruit fighters or to spread propaganda. Some have Solicitor-General for giving way. He has referred to the military experience and want to live out their violent offence being prosecuted when the perpetrator returns jihadism in Britain and Europe. According to the evidence to this country. I assume that the offence must have given to the Home Affairs Committee last year by been committed after the Bill comes into force and that Dr Thomas Hegghammer, director of terrorism research existing cases will not be caught by this new legislation. at the Norwegian Defence Research Establishment, as many as one in nine foreign fighters will return to their The Solicitor-General: As is consistent with the law country of origin specifically to carry out terrorist and practice in this country, the effect of these criminal attacks. The new legislation introduced by the Government offences will not be retrospective. I will address is therefore entirely appropriate, as it makes it as difficult commencement in a moment. as possible for those individuals and provides extraterritorial Our priority is to dissuade people from travelling to jurisdiction. We therefore wholeheartedly support speedy take part in conflicts abroad. Our legislation should implementation. leave no doubt in the mind of individuals engaging How many people do the Government feel are likely in preparation or training abroad for terrorism, of the to be prosecuted under the proposed legislation? How action that we are prepared to take to protect the do the Government intend to go about the difficult task public. That is why we intend to act as early as possible, of collecting viable evidence from extraterritorial acts? through amendments 10, 11 and 13, to ensure that It is noted in the impact assessment that it is often clause 72 is commenced immediately on the passing difficult of the Bill. That crucial change will enhance the ability of our law enforcement partners, who work tirelessly to “to prove evidentially direct engagement” keep us all safe, to take the appropriate action against in terrorism. The Solicitor-General was absolutely right people who return to the United Kingdom having to say that, in addition, we must dissuade people from undertaken such criminal acts. leaving our shores in the first place to travel to Syria. I have already addressed the issue of retrospectivity, Sadly, the fact that so many have gone can signify a but I make it clear that we believe that there is an failure at home to tackle terrorism and radicalisation at overriding need to ensure that our legislation is as its root. I accept that it is not the case with every robust as possible to ensure that our operational capability instance of people travelling to Syria, but there have to protect the public is not in any way impeded. I been failures to prevent young people from being radicalised therefore commend the clause and the Government or drawn into extremism in the first place. amendments to the Committee. The Home Secretary has said in recent debates that she wants to strengthen prevention programmes generally Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is a and the Prevent programme in particular, including pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, putting it on a statutory footing. We welcome that. Ms Clark. The Solicitor-General is absolutely right that However, getting the Prevent programme right is not the world faces a horrific threat in Syria and Iraq, in simply about legislation. The programme has been narrowed France and Belgium and in our own country. Over the over recent years. That has led to criticism, including past year or two we have seen haunting images of from the Intelligence and Security Committee, which beheadings, of gay people being thrown from towers noted in a recent report and of women and young girls being bought and sold. “the relatively low priority (and funding) given to Prevent in the On our own continent, we now see journalists massacred, CONTEST programme as a whole.” police officers executed and Jewish people shot simply It concluded that the “scale of the problem”, by which because they are Jews. This offends humanity and demands it meant the number of people travelling, 165 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 166

[Jack Dromey] Section 5, in particular, has been one of our most operationally useful offences. Home Office statistics “indicates that the Government’s counter-radicalisation programmes show that since September 2001 there have been are not working.” 56 convictions for preparation for terrorism under the Mistakes have been made, but I have to say that there Terrorism Act 2006 and its predecessor. Of those, have been some welcome announcements of late by the 13 prosecutions were conducted since June 2012. Under Government and a determination to put that right. It is section 6 and section 8, covering attendance at a terrorist crucial that we develop a much more effective counter- training camp, there have been seven successful convictions narrative. The current programmes do not sufficiently since September 2001, two since last June. address two significant challenges: peer group recruitment, which is clearly taking place in many areas, and social On operational effectiveness, the key question that media, through which recruitment and radicalisation the hon. Gentleman asked was, rightly, about obtaining are taking place. Much more needs to be done to the evidence. Clearly, evidence gathering involving other address those challenges and to dissuade in the first jurisdictions is going to be more challenging, but our place, as the Minister said. Community-led programmes law enforcement partners are already well accustomed might be considerably more effective than police or to working with the relevant authorities in other countries Government-led programmes. to gather evidence, either by mutual legal assistance agreements or otherwise. They are clear that evidence 2.30 pm obtained from abroad is frequently used in UK prosecutions, On social media, there was a fascinating report over including other types of terrorism offence, for which the weekend on the excellent work being done by King’s there is already extraterritorial jurisdiction. This is not, college London. It argued that, with additional resources as the hon. Gentleman will well appreciate, a wholly being made available to the acknowledged experts in new departure. our country, the effective monitoring of social media can have a devastating effect in finding out who is The hon. Gentleman made a very good point about responsible for some of these appalling atrocities. social media. That was mentioned by David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer, in his evidence to the Fourthly and finally, I stress again that while I Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I was a wholeheartedly support the proposed change to the law, member until recently. The evidence stated that, like in a wider context, the unprecedented cuts to our police other young people, violent extremists and jihadis use service is inevitably having an ever more serious impact social media. That helps in terms of evidence gathering. on the police’s ability to do their job. Only yesterday It is also reassuring to know that, like other terrorism Peter Clarke, former head of counter-terrorism, said in offences, these new offences will be subject to the annual The Times: review that David Anderson QC carries out. “Neighbourhood police hold one end of the ‘golden thread’ that can take us from Britain’s streets to wherever in the world I turn now to dissuasion and Prevent. We believe that terrorists are trained, equipped and radicalised…Areduction in the work of Prevent is now more properly targeted. police officer numbers increases the risk to the public”. While I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about I have seen at first hand in the west midlands just how casting the net more widely, we know from bitter experience important neighbourhood policing and the patient building that sometimes the net has been cast to include groups of community relationships are. The excellent Chris that were themselves either apologists for, or too deeply Sims, chief constable of West Midlands police, revealed involved in, the culture of extremism which, sadly, has figures last November showing that in the previous five led to the commission of terrorism offences. There was years, of 40 cases brought before the courts for serious a real concern about how we could more effectively terrorist crimes, there were 31 convictions. All bar one target resources and projects in order effectively to person convicted was Muslim, and that one was an address the risks that we all understand and are concerned eastern European who murdered a Muslim. However, about. Of course, he is right to allude to the statutory Chris Sims said that that patient building of community duty in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill. That relationships had been key, with the community will enhance and reinforce the Home Office’s assumption co-operating with the police in identifying those wrongdoers of responsibility for a new counter-extremism strategy within their ranks. The unprecedented cuts to policing that involves not just the Home Office—although its will inevitably have an effect at the next stages. role will be to oversee the strategy—but the whole of In summary, in supporting the clause, I ask the Government, the rest of the public sector and, indeed, Minister to carry out that assessment of the effectiveness wider civil society so that we can, first, confront; secondly, of its implementation, I ask the Government to reflect challenge; and thirdly, defeat extremism. I hear what the further on the importance of strengthening prevention hon. Gentleman says about continuing concerns, which and, crucially, I ask them to think again about the scale we all share, but I believe that the Government’s policy of the cuts to our police service. is clear, compelling and represents a real sense of purpose and duty when it comes to challenging the threats The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to the hon. which, sadly, exist in our society. Gentleman for his response. I shall answer his questions in turn. First, on prospective prosecutions, he rightly I commend the clause to the Committee and welcome refers to the impact assessment. It is difficult to predict the support of Her Majesty’s Opposition. I very much precisely the number that will be prosecuted under the hope that the measure will give more encouragement, new measures but we have assessed that there will be resource and power to the investigating authorities to between one and five prosecutions under section 5, make sure that criminals who get involved in this form covering the offence of preparation, and one prosecution of extremism are prosecuted. The number of prosecutions every other year under section 6, covering training. in connection with Syria is a clear sign that the best way 167 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 168 of dealing with barbaric methods is to use our own rule New Clause 9 of law and due process, which eloquently emphasise the difference between us and them. CONTROLLING OR COERCIVE BEHAVIOUR IN AN Question put and agreed to. INTIMATE OR FAMILY RELATIONSHIP Clause 72 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. ‘(1) A person (A) commits an offence if— Clause 73 ordered to stand part of the Bill. (a) A repeatedly or continuously engages in behaviour towards another person (B) that is controlling or coercive, The Chair: According to the programme motion on (b) at the time of the behaviour, A and B are personally 13 January we now come to new clauses. The first is connected, Government new clause 7, which we have already debated. (c) the behaviour has a serious effect on B, and (d) A knows or ought to know that the behaviour will have New Clause 7 a serious effect on B. (2) A and B are “personally connected” if— (a) A is in an intimate personal relationship with B, or EXEMPTION FROM CIVIL LIABILITY FOR MONEY- (b) A and B live together and— LAUNDERING DISCLOSURES In section 338 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (money (i) they are members of the same family, or laundering: authorised disclosures), after subsection (4) insert— (ii) they have previously been in an intimate personal relationship with each other. “(4A) Where an authorised disclosure is made in good faith, no civil liability arises in respect of the disclosure on the part of (3) But A does not commit an offence under this section if at the person by or on whose behalf it is made.””—(Karen the time of the behaviour in question— Bradley.) (a) A has responsibility for B, for the purposes of Part 1 of This New Clause makes express statutory provision to protect persons the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 (see (for example, financial institutions and lawyers) who report in good section 17 of that Act), and faith their suspicion that another person is engaged in money laundering (b) B is under 16. activity (in accordance with Part 7 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002) from incurring civil liability for doing so. (4) A’s behaviour has a “serious effect” on B if— Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added (a) it causes B to fear, on at least two occasions, that to the Bill. violence will be used against B, or (b) it causes B serious alarm or distress which has a substantial adverse effect on B’s usual day-to-day activities. New Clause 8 (5) For the purposes of subsection (1)(d) A “ought to know” that which a reasonable person in possession of the same SEXUAL COMMUNICATION WITH A CHILD information would know. After section 15 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 insert— (6) For the purposes of subsection (2)(b)(i) A and B are “15A Sexual communication with a child members of the same family if— (1) A person aged 18 or over (A) commits an offence if— (a) they are, or have been, married to each other; (a) for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, A (b) they are, or have been, civil partners of each other; intentionally communicates with another person (B), (c) they are relatives; (b) the communication is sexual or is intended to (d) they have agreed to marry one another (whether or not encourage B to make (whether to A or to another) a the agreement has been terminated); communication that is sexual, and (e) they have entered into a civil partnership agreement (c) B is under 16 and A does not reasonably believe that B (whether or not the agreement has been terminated); is 16 or over. (f) they are both parents of the same child; (2) For the purposes of this section, a communication is sexual (g) they have, or have had, parental responsibility for the if— same child. (a) any part of it relates to sexual activity, or (7) In subsection (6)— (b) a reasonable person would, in all the circumstances but regardless of any person’s purpose, consider any part “civil partnership agreement” has the meaning given of the communication to be sexual; by section 73 of the Civil Partnership Act 2004; and in paragraph (a) “sexual activity” means an activity that a “child” means a person under the age of 18 years; reasonable person would, in all the circumstances but regardless “parental responsibility” has the same meaning as in of any person’s purpose, consider to be sexual. the Children Act 1989; (3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable— “relative” has the meaning given by section 63(1) of the (a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term Family Law Act 1996. not exceeding 12 months or a fine or both; (8) In proceedings for an offence under this section it is a (b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a defence for A to show that— term not exceeding 2 years.”” —(Mr Buckland.) (a) in engaging in the behaviour in question, A believed This New Clause provides for a new offence where an adult that he or she was acting in B’s best interests, and communicates with a child under 16 for the purpose of obtaining sexual (b) the behaviour was in all the circumstances reasonable. gratification and the communication is sexual or intended to encourage a sexual response. The offence would be triable either way with a (9) A is to be taken to have shown the facts mentioned in maximum penalty (on conviction on indictment) of two years’ subsection (8) if— imprisonment. (a) sufficient evidence of the facts is adduced to raise an Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added issue with respect to them, and to the Bill. (b) the contrary is not proved beyond reasonable doubt. 169 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 170

(10) The defence in subsection (8) is not available to A in (c) abuse, including but not limited to, psychological, relation to behaviour that causes B to fear that violence will be physical, sexual, financial or emotional abuse used against B. between those aged 16 or over who are or have been (11) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable— intimate partners or family members regardless of gender or sexuality. (a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years, or a fine, or both; (2) For the purposes of the definition in subsection (1)— “coercive controlling behaviour” shall mean a course (b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term of conduct, knowingly undertaken, making a not exceeding 12 months, or a fine, or both.”— (Mr Buckland.) person subordinate and/or dependent by isolating them from sources of support, exploiting their This New Clause provides for a new offence criminalising controlling or resources and capacities for personal gain, depriving coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship. The new them of the means needed for independence, resistance offence would be triable either way with a maximum penalty (on and escape and regulating their everyday behaviour. conviction on indictment) of five years’ imprisonment. “coercive or threatening behaviour” means a course of Brought up, and read the First time. conduct that knowingly causes the victim or their child or children to— (a) fear that physical violence will be used against The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, That the clause them; be read a Second time. (b) experience serious alarm or distress which has a substantial adverse effect on the victim’s day-to-day activities. The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: (3) For the purposes of subsection (2) a person shall be deemed to have undertaken a course of conduct knowingly if a Government new clause 10—Guidance. reasonable person in possession of the same information would New clause 3—Offences of coercive control and domestic conclude that the individual ought to have known that their course of conduct would have the effect in subsection 2(a) or violence— (b).” ‘(1) Any person who commits an act of or engages in a course New clause 6—Domestic violence: policies, standards of conduct that amounts to coercive control in a domestic setting shall be guilty of an offence. and training— (2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable— ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall require every police service in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to develop, adopt, publish (a) on summary conviction to a community order or and implement written policies and standards for officers’ imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months responses to coercive control and domestic violence incidents or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale; within one year of this Act coming into force. or (2) The purpose of the policies required under subsection (1) (b) on conviction on indictment to a community order or shall be to ensure that police forces prioritise cases of domestic term of imprisonment not exceeding 14 years or a violence involving coercive control as serious criminal offences. fine not exceeding the statutory maximum. (3) The purpose of the standards required under subsection (2) (3) The Secretary of State shall by regulations— shall be to ensure— (a) set out matters that the court must take into account (a) a minimum level of information and support for when determining whether to refer the matter to the victims of alleged domestic violence; and Crown Court; (b) all police officers involved in domestic violence cases (b) require a court, local authority or other public body shall have had appropriate training in domestic not to disclose the current address or postcode of the violence behaviours. victim of an alleged offence under subsection (1) if, (4) In developing these policies and standards each police in the court’s view, it would place the victim at risk of service shall consult with local domestic violence experts and harm by the alleged perpetrator or any other person; agencies.” (c) provide the court with the power to require those New clause 27—Report on effectiveness of national convicted of an offence under subsection (1) to successfully complete a domestic violence programme register of domestic abusers and serial stalkers— and/or another appropriate counselling programme ‘(1) The Secretary of State must, within six months of as ordered by the court; and commencement of this Act, commission a report on the potential effectiveness of a national register of individuals convicted of (d) provide the court with the power to issue domestic more than one domestic abuse or stalking offence. violence orders under section 28 of the Crime and Security Act 2010 to those convicted of an offence (2) The report should include a cost-benefit analysis of such a under subsection (1). register.” (4) Regulations under this section shall be made by statutory Government amendments 3, 6 and 28. instrument and may not be made unless a copy has been laid in draft before, and approved by, both Houses of Parliament.” New clause 4—Prosecution of offences of coercive The Solicitor-General: Thank you, Ms Clark, for control— listing everything comprehensively to allow us to have a debate that will encompass Second Reading and stand ‘(1) The prosecution of any person under the terms of New part as well as contributions on amendments tabled by Clause [Offences of coercive control and domestic violence] shall not be the subject of statutory time limits.” other hon. Members. New clause 5—Definition of domestic violence— It is my particular pleasure—I think that is the right word, or perhaps “honour”— to move the amendment ‘(1) For the purposes of this Act, “Domestic Violence” that stands in the name of my right hon. Friend the means— Home Secretary. Domestic abuse is unquestionably a (a) controlling, coercive or threatening behaviour; serious and intolerable crime. I have had to deal with it (b) physical violence; or as a practitioner and I have seen the consequences of 171 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 172 the litany of abuse inflicted not only on adults but on it does indeed need to be strengthened, and 55% highlighted the children and young people in the families concerned. the need for a new offence. I am sure that the Committee Lives are destroyed and tragically cut short. would agree that a person who causes someone to live in In 2012-13, more than 1.9 million people in this constant fear through a campaign of intimidation should country dealt with the terrifying reality of being victims face justice for their actions. If such a person is unknown of violence and abuse at the hands of those closest to to their victim or is known but unrelated they would be them, and 76 women were murdered by a current or called a stalker. What if that person is related to the former partner, yet we know that that appalling crime is victim? What if they share a home or a life together? still under-reported. In fact, some victims do not think The laws against stalking are not readily applicable in that what is happening to them is wrong. More shockingly such circumstances. How do we ensure that they face still, some of those controlled and dominated by someone justice? The reality at the moment is that they might they trust may even blame themselves for what is happening. not. We have to change that. We must create a new As a result, such abuse is hidden behind the closed offence that makes it crystal clear that a pattern of doors of far too many families. We must bring domestic coercion is as serious within a relationship as it is abuse out into the open if we are to end it. The first step outside one. In many ways it is worse, because it plays is to call it what it is: a crime of the worst kind. on the trust and affection of the victim. That is why we need a new offence.

Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Does the Minister think that the situation is assisted or hindered 2.45 pm by the barriers placed in the way of women in employment New clause 9 would close a gap in the law that should who wish to secure legal aid funding to take action? not exist. It would ensure that those abused by the They also face funding barriers in getting places in people closest to them are protected by the law. The new women’s refuges. offence seeks to address repeated or continuous behaviour in relationships where incidents viewed in isolation might The Solicitor-General: The hon. Gentleman raises appear unexceptional but have a significant cumulative important points about the extent of legal aid. We impact on the victim’s everyday life, causing them fear, cannot rehearse the arguments about the Legal Aid, alarm or distress. Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, but It is not our ambition to intrude into ordinary he will know that, where there is evidence of domestic relationships. Every relationship will have its own power violence and the criteria are met in respect of the legal dynamics, and this proposal is not about outlawing aid fund, there will be funding for civil and family arguments or saying that couples cannot disagree. We proceedings relating to domestic violence in family recognise the importance of ensuring that the new situations. On refuges, I must say that I am proud that offence does not impact on non-abusive relationships the Government have seen more refuges and rape crisis that might be more volatile than others. As such, the centres opened, because they are a vital resource for repeated or continuous nature of the behaviour and the many women who have nowhere else to turn. The ability of a reasonable person, whether part of or Government’s record is good when it comes to enhancing external to the relationship, to appreciate that their and spreading awareness of the role of those important behaviour will have a serious effect on the victim, are services. key elements of the new offence. I say to the hon. Gentleman that we are dealing As an additional safeguard against the inappropriate primarily with the criminal sphere. He will know that use of the power, a defence is set out within the new legal aid and public funding are available not only for offence. That will operate where someone was genuinely the prosecution of offences but for criminal defence and acting in the best interests of another, for example, the conduct of criminal cases in the magistrates or where a spouse is a carer and needs to restrict the Crown courts. That is what we are discussing today. movement of a partner, perhaps with mental health I will deal with criminal prosecution, because the issues, for their own safety. Government have made significant strides to improve However, we also recognise the importance of ensuring the criminal justice response to domestic violence and that that defence cannot be used as a “get out of jail abuse. The number of referrals from the police for free” card by manipulative perpetrators. The defence prosecution is higher than ever before, and the number will not be available where the victim has been caused to of cases reaching court has risen. In 2012-13, there were fear violence. Where the defence is available, a defendant just over 70,700 prosecutions for domestic abuse nationally, will need to show that a reasonable person would agree and current projections expect that figure to increase to that their behaviour was reasonable in all the circumstances. nearly 90,000 by the end of this financial year. The That is not an easy test to meet, I submit, if someone conviction rate for domestic violence and abuse is also has been responsible for perpetrating a campaign of at its highest-ever level, yet a stark comparison of crime control against another person. survey and Crown Prosecution Service figures suggests We have ensured that the new offence does not overlap that just one in 20 of those abused by family members the existing criminal law. For that reason, we have or partners are able to access justice. decided that child abuse should not fall within the remit That is just not good enough. It suggests that too of the new offence, because it is covered by the existing many cruel and manipulative perpetrators are getting law on child cruelty, which we have already debated in away with their actions, so last summer the Government the context of clause 65. Similarly, the new offence does ran a consultation asking whether the law needs to be not apply to extended family members who have never strengthened to provide better protection to victims of lived with the victim, because stalking legislation is domestic abuse. Some 85% of respondents told us that applicable in those circumstances. 173 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 174

Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): Will my hon. and learned this new offence, together with the guidance for investigators Friend clear up in my mind what a child is in the context provided for in new clause 10, will make it easier for the of the new clause? Subsection (3)(b) refers to an exemption police to protect victims and to bring those who abuse if the person is under 16, yet subsection (7) refers to a them to justice. child being a person under the age of 18. Will he please The new offence is an opportunity to take an enormous explain the difference? step forward towards the eradication of the scourge of domestic abuse from our society, and I commend the The Solicitor-General: I will do my best. Subsection (3)(b) new clause to the Committee. I am conscious that the relates to the exclusion that I have just mentioned in right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd has new relation to the commission of an offence against B. The clauses in this group, which in part overlap with the later definition of “child” deals with how we define the Government’s new clause, and that the hon. Member members of the same family. Those are two different for Feltham and Heston has tabled new clause 27. I purposes. The first purpose relates to the nature of the look forward to hearing what they have to say about the victim and the second to the test of whether parties are new clauses, and I will respond when winding up the members of the same family. That perhaps eloquently debate. illustrates the inconsistencies that we debated last week. Because of the different capacities, it is difficult for the Mr Llwyd: The Solicitor-General pointed at me when law to have a rational coherence in every circumstance. he mentioned the word “stalking”. That was not because Again, I do not apologise for that. The legislation is I am a stalker but because I had the privilege of chairing carefully drafted to make that point powerfully. the group that brought in that law two years ago. Now another law I have worked on might well come through. Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): This measure is The situation of two in three years is like London buses: very much needed and I welcome the Minister’s bringing there are many years of nothing, and then one after the it forward. In a number of the child sexual exploitation other. As the Solicitor-General said, he had great experience cases I have come across, although the grooming process of domestic violence and abuse while in practice as a started before the child was 16, the actual sexual exploitation lawyer. I share that experience, both as a solicitor and as and trafficking of that person tended to go on from the a member of the Bar. I believe that this has been a age of 16 until the early 20s, and the person believed long-standing void in our domestic violence laws. I am that they were in an intimate relationship with the extremely pleased that the Government are moving abuser. Does the Minister think that this new legislation forward on this today. I rise to speak to new clauses 3, 4, would be another tool that the police could use to stop 5 and 6, which stand in my name. child exploitation? Essentially, new clause 3 sketches out the offence of coercive control in the context of domestic violence. It The Solicitor-General: Certainly, in the context of a deals with making regulations and also concerns the family relationship, there might be a situation where maximum sentence. New clause 4 if enacted would somebody has reached the age of 16 and this would ensure that there would be no statutory time limits on apply. There are of course other sexual offences that the offence. I know that the Solicitor-General will respond could cover that conduct. The police, in looking at a positively on that. particularly coercive relationship, might then uncover New clause 5 deals with the definition of domestic revelations about exploitation. That is why these reforms violence, which is more or less in line with what the are so useful for the police. Through one doorway Government have put in their clause. New clause 6 is another door is often opened to even more serious or entitled: “Domestic violence: policies, standards and different types of offending, such as child sexual training”. That new clause is key. It is vital that we get exploitation, on which the hon. Lady has campaigned this matter right. There is no point whatsoever in introducing so eloquently. a law such as this, and I readily thank the Government We have carefully considered the maximum sentence. for listening to the arguments for it, unless the prosecuting Such a pattern of abuse is illegal whether it is within or authorities are up to speed and ready to implement it outside a relationship. We have decided on a maximum properly. sentence of five years’ imprisonment, because we want It took some time to get police forces up and down to recognise the damage that coercive or controlling the UK ready for the stalking law; now they are ready, behaviour can do to its victims. That penalty is but there was about a two-year time lag. This measure is commensurate with the maximum available on the stalking as important, because the fallout of getting it wrong offence in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. This would be very damaging to many families. Let us not new offence will send a clear message to abusers and forget something the Solicitor-General said: such a victims alike that domestic abuse is wrong and it will fallout would be potentially damaging not only to the not be tolerated in this country. If you are a victim, male and female in the association, but, crucially, to the come forward and gain access to protection and justice. children. We owe children a duty always. If you are an abuser, change your behaviour or face the I am delighted that the Government have accepted full impact of the law. It is plain and simple. the rationale behind my ten-minute rule Bill. I shall This legislation is not a substitute for other vital work support Government new clauses 9 and 10, although I that the Government are doing to improve the response wish to seek clarification from the Solicitor-General on to domestic violence. The new offence cannot be some points in those new clauses. implemented without an effective police response. The Members of the Committee may be aware that, in work that the Home Secretary is doing to drive February last year, I introduced a ten-minute rule motion improvements through her national oversight group on that sought to criminalise all aspects of domestic violence domestic abuse remains as high a priority as ever but and to bring in the offence of coercive and controlling 175 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 176 behaviour. Therefore, I am delighted that the Government clauses are motivated by the same conviction—that have accepted that offence. A meeting that I had with emotional abuse and manipulative behaviour over a the Home Secretary a couple of months ago was extremely long period can be corrosive to a person’s self-esteem to positive and I was encouraged from that point onwards. such an extent that many go on to suffer from post- I am happy to say that I had the support of the hon. traumatic stress disorder and anxiety-related issues, and andlearnedMemberforSouthSwindon,nowSolicitor-General, some contemplate suicide. who was then a Back Bencher; the hon. Member for A pattern of behaviour that involves coercive and Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne); the right controlling behaviour and a catalogue of abuses that a hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan); perpetrator uses deliberately in a crafted fashion is not the hon. Members for Manchester, Withington (Mr a crime of passion that happens on the spur of the Leech), for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) and for Hayes moment. Such behaviour has been described by some and Harlington (John McDonnell); the hon. and learned criminal behaviour psychologists as emotional rape, Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier); the which, though extreme, goes some way to capturing the hon. Members for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), incapacitating impact it can and does have on its victims. for South Down (Ms Ritchie), and for Islington North For that reason, I do not think that a maximum of five (Jeremy Corbyn); and my hon. Friend the Member for years’ imprisonment is a strict enough penalty for the Arfon (Hywel Williams) when I introduced my Bill. worst offenders, but I await the response of the Solicitor- My motivation for introducing the Bill was that, General. although the Government adopted a new definition of A recent BBC “Panorama” episode, which centred on domestic violence in March 2013, it was not yet a coercive control, claimed that one in 10 prosecutions statutory definition, meaning that until this Bill Committee now involves domestic violence, but only 6.3% of domestic there were gaps in the law whereby individuals could violence cases reported to the police in England and perpetrate domestic violence and abuse and could not Wales in 2012-13 resulted in a conviction. At the end of be arrested for that behaviour. last year, my office undertook research into the laws The cross-Government definition that I alluded to covering domestic violence in four states of the United was adopted from the one used by the Association of States: New York, North Carolina, Massachusetts and Chief Police Officers: Texas. We were assisted by an American intern who was “Any incident or pattern of incidents of controlling, coercive placed with us through the Hansard scholars programme. or threatening behaviour, violence or abuse between those aged 16 Where possible, direct contact was made with the assistant or over who are or have been intimate partners or family members district attorneys and advocacy organisations in those regardless of gender or sexuality. This can encompass but is not states. limited to the following types of abuse: We discovered that in New York, when police are psychological called to respond to a domestic violence incident, it is physical mandatory that they arrest the abuser on sight and fill sexual out a domestic violence incident report. The most recently financial available figures showed that the Bronx had a 39% emotional.” incarceration rate for cases involving domestic violence, Members will notice that new clause 5(1) defines domestic and Brooklyn had a 35% rate. From our communications violence in those terms and would put that definition on with Amily McCool, the systems advocacy co-ordinator the statute book. That would be an important and of the North Carolina Coalition Against Domestic perhaps symbolic move, so I still urge the Government Violence, we discovered that in North Carolina, individuals to take similar measures to set out the definition in the have two years to bring a misdemeanour offence, and Bill. there is no statutory time limit for felonies. According As has been said, last summer, the Home Office to our research, that state had a one third conviction launched a consultation, which I believe triggered about rate and a 23% rate of misdemeanour prosecutions that 750 to 850 responses, asking whether a new offence of resulted in a sentence of incarceration. coercive control should be introduced. I understand Telephone conversations were conducted with Amily that an overwhelming 85% of respondents signalled McCool; Rachel Newton, an assistant district attorney that they would support such a move. So I am gratified in Erie County in western New York; and Aaron Setliff, to see the Government new clauses, although there are director of policy at the Texas Council on Family still some points I wish to raise. Violence. Each reported that, on average, victims of Members will notice that the penalties set out for domestic violence in their states wait for seven or eight being found guilty of an offence of coercive control instances of abuse to occur before reporting the behaviour under new clause 3, which I tabled, are stricter than to the police. According to Refuge, victims in England those set out by the Government in new clause 9. I and Wales suffer an average of 35 instances before maintain that offenders who are found guilty on conviction reporting to the police. Therefore, tougher domestic on indictment should be liable to imprisonment, in the violence laws are obviously needed to combat the lack worst cases, for up to 14 years if their behaviour merits of awareness and possible lack of confidence in our such a term, although I heard what the Solicitor-General justice system to punish the behaviour and protect the said—the sentence would be in line with that for the victims. I am sure we all agree that we owe it to victims more serious stalking offences in the Protection of of domestic violence, whatever the nature of that violence Freedoms Act 2012. or abuse, to ensure that perpetrators are brought to justice and that victims will be released from what is an 3pm imprisonment for them. I have already welcomed clause 65, which recognises Subsection (3)(b) of new clause 3 requires a court, that psychological harm in relation to child cruelty can local authority and other public bodies not to disclose be every bit as debilitating as physical violence. My new the current address of a victim, if it would place that 177 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 178 victim under harm. I included this measure in response number of police forces and Crown prosecutors to be to the case of Eve Thomas, who was set on fire by her brought up to speed. I am pleased to say that we are former husband and underwent domestic abuse over a there now, more or less. I made the point earlier that it period of 20 years. During an unrelated civil case, would be awful if we introduced this without immediate Bolton county court ordered Eve to disclose her address, training, so that people have confidence from the very which prompted her to campaign for a change in the beginning. If not, people will just go back to the old law, so that addresses could be kept secret in unrelated feeling of, “Oh well, nobody will listen to me, it is just court proceedings. The campaign, which goes under business as usual”. It is absolutely vital that we get the the name of Eve’s Law, has won the backing of many, training done as soon as possible. including the Deputy Prime Minister. I urge the There are a few more points on which I would welcome Government to consider adopting it. the Minister’s comments. I was originally concerned Subsection (3)(c) of new clause 3 gives the court the about the motivation behind new clause 9, subsections (8) power to require perpetrators of coercive control to to (10). Having spoken to Government Members, I now undergo appropriate counselling programmes to address appreciate the nuances of when this limited defence their behaviour. The purpose of new clause 4 is to could be used: if the defendant believes they are acting ensure that prosecutions for coercive control will not be in the best interests of the victim, for example when the subject to statutory time limits. Section 127 of the victim is mentally ill, and the defendant has to find a Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 provides a time limit of way to compel the victim to take medication or be kept six months from the time that an offence is committed at home for protection. to the laying of an information. This applies to summary I am glad that the defence will not be available when a offences only, but I anticipate that the answer from the court is satisfied that the defendant has caused the Solicitor-General will be that this offence will be an victim to fear violence. I note that the provision complies either way offence, in other words, it could be tried with the European convention on human rights. However, summarily or on indictment. I must say that groups such as Women’s Aid have been very concerned about this. Concerns about the tests are The Solicitor-General: I reassure the right hon. Gentleman deeply held and are expressed by workers in the field of that is the case. They are either way offences, so time domestic violence, such as probation officers. Abusers limits will not apply. can often be manipulative and are frequently the dominant partner in the relationship. They dominate, manipulate, undermine and make life miserable for their partner. Mr Llwyd: I am grateful to the Solicitor-General, We have to look at that carefully. No doubt some will because that is an important point. That is a considerable give the excuse that they are acting in such a way only step forward. New clause 5 sets out a definition of because they love the victim. I ask for clear assurances domestic violence as well as coercive controlling behaviour. that the guidelines that police will receive on this test I draw the Committee’s attention to subsection (2) of will make it 100% clear that defendants must prove new clause 5 which sets out that coercive controlling beyond reasonable doubt that the behaviour was in the behaviour involves a course of conduct that knowingly best interests of the victim, and that the test would be causes the victim or child to fear violence or experience objective and sparsely applied. When I first read the serious alarm or distress which has a substantial impact defence I was very concerned, and I know others in the on their day-to-day life and activities. I welcome the fact Committee from all parties shared that view. Women’s that subsection (4) of Government new clause 9 addresses Aid is still very concerned. We have to be very careful, the same points. lest we undermine all the good work that is included in Finally, new clause 6 sets out that the Secretary of the two new clauses. State shall require every police service in England, I have already asked whether the new offence will be Wales and Northern Ireland to develop and adopt subject to time limits, and I anticipate a positive answer. written policies and standards for officers’ responses to I would also be glad to have clarification on whether the coercive control and domestic violence incidents, within police will be able to make an arrest in cases where a one year of the Act coming into force. The new clause victim has already divorced their partner and even will also ensure that all police officers will have appropriate settled financially. The new clauses proposed by the training in how to deal with these offences and provide Government centre on controlling or coercive behaviour adequate support for victims of this offence. I believe that takes place in an that the Minister will say something about training when he responds, so I will not dwell on that point. “intimate or family relationship”. I welcome the fact that, in new clause 10, the Government I would be glad to hear whether those circumstances have conceded the need for the Secretary of State to could include relationships where coercive control has issue guidance on how cases involving coercive control occurred post-separation. should be investigated. However, I am a little concerned Age UK is also concerned that the definition of that they are not going far enough by putting a duty on family members in proposed new clause 9 is limited to police forces to train all officers in the new offence. I those who live together, and would not cover family urge the Government to consider doing so. I think the members who suffer from coercive control at the hands Minister will respond on that point when he closes the of another family member who does not live with them. debate. That can take many forms, for example, financial abuse. I say this, not only because it is worth saying, but I have been approached by criminal justice professionals because my experience of the stalking law was that who have queries about how the new offence would there was a period of about 12 months when relatively operate. They are keen to know whether police investigations nothing happened. It took another 12 months for a good into coercive control could force the disclosure of documents 179 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 180 such as bank statements. Other queries include the extra domestic violence cases. Instances of this doubled between resources that prosecutors will be able to put into 2009 and 2013, which may not send the necessary proving these cases and training operatives, and whether message of zero tolerance or provide intervention in the police will be able to compel agencies such as what becomes repeat behaviour. district councils, social care and the Department for The policing of domestic abuse has been a matter of Work and Pensions to reveal the source of malicious huge concern. The report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate allegations—risks to children, benefit fraud and so of constabulary last March raised huge issues—deep, on—without a court order. systemic issues—about the policing of domestic violence I would welcome the Solicitor-General’s comments and domestic abuse. The Bill and our debates come at on all those points. As I have indicated, I shall not press an important time, as the police look at how to reform my own clauses. I have of course read new clauses 9 and their systems and their processes to support victims 10, and most of the contents of my clauses are encapsulated more effectively. The Police Foundation has also done within those Government new clauses. I am delighted some important work on this. We welcome the change that the campaign, which began in February, has now in the law, but with the caveat that it must be used seen the introduction of a very important law to bridge properly and effectively to tackle domestic abuse and a gap that, I am afraid, has existed for some time. My give victims the confidence to come forward early. There particular misgivings remain, and I would be grateful if will be issues, which we must address now, about how the Solicitor-General addressed them. evidence will be collected and collated in instances of psychological and emotional abuse, the perpetrators of which see themselves as beyond the reach of the criminal 3.15 pm justice system and the police. Seema Malhotra: It is a pleasure to speak in this Indeed, our partners in the sector, which have worked debate and to follow the right hon. Member for Dwyfor closely with hon. Members of all parties, provide ample Meirionnydd, who spoke extremely eloquently.He deserves evidence of that fact. Women’s Aid’s domestic violence a huge amount of credit for his work on this issue law reform campaign, Paladin National Stalking Advocacy and indeed on the stalking legislation, on which I will Service, and the Sara Charlton Charitable Foundation also touch during my remarks. I also acknowledge conducted a survey of survivors of domestic violence. the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Some 98% of those they surveyed had experienced Middlesbrough, who made some important points about “controlling, domineering and/or demeaning behaviours” refuges. Support for victims of domestic abuse and domestic violence is very important. That is one of the including, reasons why we have committed to funding for refuges “isolation from friends, family… removal of all communications of £3 million a year for the next five years. devices; food being withheld as well as use of the toilet; control of what the victim would wear…sleep deprivation” I also want to acknowledge Hutoxi Davis and Jackie Duke in my constituency and in Hounslow for their —a whole range of issues. Those of us who have been to work on this and for their advice on some of these many refuges across the country have heard those stories issues, and the work of Carl Bussey, the borough again and again; it is shocking that it continues to the commander in Hounslow. As I became the shadow extent that it does. Minister just a few months ago, talking to those in the Within the current framework, if those behaviours justice system, local authorities and campaign groups, were reported to the police, to date there would be very as well as the sector which deals with victims of domestic few arrestable offences, perhaps with the exception of abuse and sexual violence, has been important. I will stalking since November 2012. Perpetrators have been draw on a couple of case studies from my visits to Rise aware of the shortcomings of legislation and walked the in Brighton, in which Rise board member Purna Sen fine line that allows them to control and manipulate played a very important part. I also acknowledge the their partners and family members without falling foul work of Thangam Debbonaire of Respect, who contributed of the criminal law. It is time to ensure that the criminal very helpfully to our thinking on these issues. justice system and the police move beyond seeing the We very much welcome new clause 9. We are really scope of domestic violence as being about physical pleased that it has been tabled and that we are debating violence, and that we overhaul our approach to domestic the long-standing need for a change in legislation. Indeed, abuse. Labour has been calling for an offence of coercive I echo and support some of the sentiments of the control for some time. The shadow Home Secretary right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd in his new raised this issue back in 2012, so it has had an important clauses, one being the point about adequate training history in the House. It is absolutely right that it has and guidelines for the police and other legal practitioners. had cross-party support. Indeed, in July, the shadow It is incredibly important that we have that so that there Home Secretary also said that Labour would absolutely is an understanding of how to collect evidence and support and call for a specific offence of domestic bring an effective prosecution. Indeed, in the work that abuse, with the scope for including emotional abuse and Vera Baird QC has done as police and crime commissioner coercive control, which is so important. in Northumbria, she has raised a number of issues that Delighted as we are by the stage we have reached are important to address. One is the requirement for today, we all know that there is a huge amount more training for all judges on the new offence. Perhaps that that we need to do to tackle the scourge of domestic should be a condition of hearing domestic abuse cases. abuse and domestic violence. Current laws have done Last week, I met a woman who told me a sad story very little to dent the number of cases that are reported about how she had started off in a positive relationship, every year. We have also been concerned about and have which changed when she was pregnant with the first raised the use of inappropriate community sentences in child. The abuse was psychological, including a number 181 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 182

[Seema Malhotra] coercive and controlling and that it will be line with the new definition of domestic violence which, though it is of the symptoms that I mentioned about control of not in statute, came out in March 2013 and does provide what she could wear and who she could see. It isolated wording. Will the Minister also say exactly how he her from her family so she had very few support networks, would expect that to be considered in any prosecutions? and led to violence, including when the second child It is difficult when there are violent and non-violent was born. Despite the perpetrator having been in and aspects of somebody’s behaviour and there are multiple out of prison for the violent offences on more than one offences that may need to be tackled under different occasion, she now has to move to a completely different legislation. Perhaps the Minister might also touch on area. Her son, who is six years old, is waiting for mental this point. Although I understand that there are no health support services—therapy services—because he statutory time limits for the new offence, when it comes has been so traumatised. to domestic violence cases, common assault is a common The impact of domestic abuse, as has been highlighted offence that has a six-month time limit. Therefore, if by other hon. Members, on children is tremendous, somebody reports both violent and non-violent aspects hence the need to have clarity around the law and of abuse, but reports the non-violent aspects only after intervene early. The woman told me about a traumatic a year because of the trauma they have experienced, we experience that she had in court, where it was extremely could be in a situation where the non-violent aspects of difficult for her to give evidence. She was told that if she the abuse can be considered under criminal law but the did not give evidence, she would be jailed for 28 days. At violent aspects cannot. I would be grateful for clarity that time, she was four months pregnant with a second about whether that is the case and whether that can be child. There are more sensitive ways of dealing with looked at again. such matters, where there is a deeper understanding of My second concern is about the issues that were what a victim is experiencing. Has the Minister considered raised by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, whether there could be automatic special measures in who also talked about Women’s Aid’s concerns about domestic abuse cases, as there are in rape cases, where the defence. I thank the Minister for the letter that she there is a particular issue around manipulation, fear sent to the shadow Home Secretary and me on this issue and control that victims experience, often for many and the need for a defence, which I know has been years to come as they rebuild their lives? As those in the drawn on. I have some further points. As has been sector have told us, it is currently too easy for abusers to stated, the defence is in two parts: subsections 8(a) and get away with what they do, because they know that if 8(b). This offence is often a particularly mendacious there is insufficient physical evidence they might not be and manipulative form of abuse. It is often difficult to convicted. detect, recognise and prove, and we will face challenges as we move through cases for the first time. It is often The Solicitor-General: The hon. Lady makes a very based on the perpetrator exerting undue influence and interesting point about special measures While it is control over the victim through intimidation or emotional fresh in my mind, my understanding—which is manipulation. substantiated by advice I have been given—is that special measures are available where the witness can demonstrate that the quality of their evidence will be diminished if 3.30 pm they have to give evidence in the conventional way. To have a defence based on A believing that he or she Applications can be made in a variety of cases involving was acting in B’s best interest could lead to a subjective violence and other types of criminality. I envisage that justification that could be misused by the perpetrator, in this offence would certainly be encapsulated by the a way that lends itself to further abuse within the court special measures regime with which the courts are familiar. system. It is important to be careful with the wording, I hope that that gives her some assurance. particularly in subsection (8)(a). A very successful public figure—not in politics—spoke Seema Malhotra: I thank the Minister for that to me, giving no indication of trauma, after I told her of intervention and I am extremely pleased to hear that. my new role. She described her experience of being As this legislation comes into effect, it will be interesting abused at home and what she had been through post- to monitor how well it is being implemented and some university in what had seemed a blossoming relationship. of the issues that might be experienced, given that the She talked about the different roles that the perpetrator same level of awareness might not exist across the played in her life. country. “When a woman meets a man and he is charming, then turns I have a few points of concern to raise before speaking nasty and controlling, then abusive, then sexually abuses you, about new clause 27. The first concerns the clarity of then cries, what do you do? They grind you down so much and then they are the ones who pick you up. They are your abuser and the definition and the proposed guidance. Again, I hero all in one.” support the sentiments of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd on this. The Government’s intentions There is something deliberately and deeply manipulative are clear from the consultation paper in August, which about such a relationship. Then, six months or a year focused on the specific offence of domestic abuse to fill later, the perpetrator says in court, “It was in her best what was seen as a gap: there was a need for greater interests that I did this to her.” Imagine having to go clarity about coercive and controlling behaviour in intimate through that experience. relationships, given that violent behaviours were considered Did the Minister consider whether subsection (8)(b) to be effectively criminalised through existing provisions. could offer a more objective defence, where the behaviour I assume—and perhaps the Minister can clarify this—that was in all circumstances reasonable? Would that sufficiently the guidance will contain clarity on the definition of cover the different scenarios that are rightly of concern? 183 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 184

New clause 27 proposes a study by Government of far as I understand, so we do not know how judges the benefits of having a national register of domestic might be likely to sentence. The sentences that are abusers and serial stalkers. That follows various campaigns handed down vary hugely. and a recognition that we need to do more to prevent Some have raised questions about the purpose of the the risk of harm from growing numbers of serial stalkers register. It could be a register for citizens to call up, such and perpetrators of domestic violence. as under Clare’s law, or one that could improve the We know that there are more than 1 million victims justice system. Our conversations so far have been much of domestic abuse each year. We know that every 30 seconds more in line with the debate about how we improve and the police will receive a call about domestic abuse. We join up the justice system to give forces more of the know that a recent British crime survey found that 89% tools they need to be able to protect and intervene early. of victims who experienced four or more incidents of Consider the situation, for example, when somebody domestic violence are women. Over 30% of women goes to the police for the first time in an area. The police experience domestic abuse in their lifetime, often with may identify the perpetrator as someone who had actually years of psychological abuse. More than two thirds of been convicted elsewhere, possibly on more than one cases of sexual assault or stalking in the UK are against occasion. The register could highlight the potential women. seriousness and speed with which a domestic situation The Local Government Association and Croydon could escalate and provide stronger support to the council have begun to look at the issue following a victim at that time, who might otherwise continue without murder in Croydon by somebody known to the police that knowledge and be unaware of how seriously the and previously convicted. situation could develop. The new clause calls for the commissioning of a Mr Reed: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and report on the potential effectiveness of a national register for that reference to Croydon’s campaign. I congratulate of individuals convicted of more than one domestic her on an incredibly powerful speech about the horrors abuse or stalking offence. It would ask key questions for of domestic abuse and how widespread it is. Croydon’s protection and prevention, such as whether a national campaign was set up in light of the case of Paula database should be available and accessible by all police Newman who was violently murdered by her abusive forces. There would be a positive obligation to report a partner in November 2013 after a relatively short change of name or address or other possible relevant relationship. Neither the local authority nor the police circumstances. The report would need to analyse the were aware of the fact that her partner had a long costs and benefits of such a measure. The current history of violent abuse elsewhere. Because there was technical architecture of police and criminal justice no national register, they were not alerted when he information systems is a huge issue for the effective moved into the area and could offer no support to delivery of justice—I am sure that we would all acknowledge Paula on the risks of entering a relationship with him. that. However, with local crime reporting systems, the Tragically, as a result of that she is now dead. Croydon police national computer, the police national database, is leading a campaign in local government for the and ViSOR we have potential options. We now need the establishment of a national register of domestic abusers. analysis to see how these and other bits of the jigsaw I hope the Government will, at least, explore that idea. I puzzle can more effectively fit together. We believe that invite my hon. Friend to comment on that campaign. that analysis will be helpful in deciding whether this is a useful road down which to travel and how we can strengthen the tools of prevention to better tackle violence Seema Malhotra: I thank my hon. Friend for his against women and girls. comments and pay tribute to Croydon council on their Paladin has also provided us with a number of important campaign. It has helped to bring together the work case studies showing in stark terms the consequences of done by Laura Richards and ACPO, and Paladin’s the ineffective system we have today. Indeed, Paladin arguments for such a register, and started a conversation has highlighted to me that it tends to do more joining about whether we need to explore this issue further. In up than the police. It can identify the same perpetrator Hounslow, Councillor Sue Sampson has been looking in a different part of the country because it deals with at what more we need to do to get better data on different victims. That is an important consideration. stalkers and to share that across forces for reasons that Are we looking to the voluntary and support sector to are very similar to those that my hon. Friend outlined. actually do some of our policing for us when their There is no doubt that cases of stalking and harassment resources are already stretched? and the risks to victims are increasing. That includes the new ways in which people are approached, particularly Paladin raised the case of Ryan Ingham, who murdered through social media and spyware. There is a growing his fiancée Caroline Finegan a few months after a industry of harm to women and men, with stalking and violent attack which was so bad that she needed hospital its impact on the increase. This was described to me in treatment. It states that conversations with ACPO. There is also ample evidence “He already had 23 convictions for violence and harassment, of serial stalkers as well as serial domestic violence mostly towards other partners. However, Caroline would not have perpetrators. A report on the facts about this issue, and been able to learn of his violent history by Clare’s Law, as he was the costs and benefits of a new measure in the future, using a false name.” could be the right way to start a conversation about A second case is pregnant 17-year-old Jayden Parkinson, whether we can do more to prevent harm to victims. who was brutally murdered. As Paladin says, Other gaps need filling which could be considered as “Her ex-partner Ben Blakeley was found guilty of her murder part of this measure or alongside it. For example, there and sentenced to life. He has a history of serial abuse and was are no sentencing guidelines for stalking behaviour, as violent and controlling during all his relationships. Previous 185 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 186

[Seema Malhotra] is also the victim’s carer, for example, we believe the only test of ‘best interest’ must be objective, for example the opinion of a offences had been reported to the police, but there is no system trained professional.” which allows for flagging and tagging and monitoring of serial That echoes the point the right hon. Member for Dwyfor offenders.” Meirionnydd made earlier in the debate. A similar amendment was tabled in the other place by Frankly, I am not quite sure what the answer is. Baroness Smith and Lord Rosser. They asked whether Personally, I find the word “reasonable” in subsection serial stalkers should be added to the violent and sex (8) a little jarring, and “justified” might be better, but I offenders register and managed through the multi-agency am not a parliamentary draftsman. However, I ask the public protection arrangements or “MAPA”. New clause Government to look again at the words in that subsection 27 is slightly different. The Government’s reasoning for to make sure they are absolutely accurate in terms of rejecting that amendment at the time was that they were what we all want to achieve. looking at a range of options to strengthen responses to stalking and domestic violence, which would rightly include the police response to managing perpetrators of 3.45 pm these serious crimes. That absolutely needs to happen. However, we are also talking about the serial nature of Will the Minister explain again—either now or in this crime. We absolutely support the goal of managing writing subsequently—the explanation he gave to my perpetrators of stalking and domestic violence and intervention earlier about the definition of a child? I do ensuring that that goal is effectively met through operation not want to labour the point, but new clause 9(2) refers improvements. to The reason that we believe this report is so important “members of the same family”. is that it will help to inform the best way forward in Subsection (3), which relates back to it, talks about a terms of improving current databases and systems for child being under 16—that is the same family. However, stalking and domestic violence. That will hopefully feed subsection (7), which defines a child as being under 18, into conclusions about the cost-effectiveness of joining refers back to subsection (6), which also talks about up systems more effectively to prevent many more victims people being in the same family. There is an issue there, from harm in the future. I look forward to the Minister’s and there may be an explanation, which I may have response. failed to understand when the Minister gave it to me earlier, but we should be clear. As Members will know, what happens to 16 and 17-year-olds is often brought Norman Baker: I welcome Government new clauses 9 up in these cases, and we need to be sure we are not and 10, which take matters forward in a helpful way. It creating a loophole. is particularly good to see the progress that has been I want to raise a further point on new clause 9 with made over the past four years or so under the coalition the Minister. Subsection 4(a) states: Government in tackling violence against women and “A’s behaviour has a ‘serious effect’ on B if…it causes B to fear, girls and, indeed, violence against men and boys; that on at least two occasions, that violence will be used against B”. factor should not be neglected when discussing these I am not clear from new clause 9 what the time scale for issues. I was particularly pleased by the introduction of those two occasions is—they could, in theory, be 20 years the domestic violence protection orders and the domestic apart. We need to be clear what the Government have in violence disclosure scheme. The latter seems to perform mind. Twenty years apart would probably not be a fair some of the functions which the Opposition’s national way of describing it, whereas six months apart would register seeks to discharge, though the hon. Member for clearly be very relevant. Perhaps that will be picked up Feltham and Heston makes an interesting point about in the Government’s guidance on new clause 10, but the whether people using false names can be captured by point needs to be nailed down a bit more. the disclosure scheme on that basis. My hon. and learned Friend the Minister might want to reflect on that narrow The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd point. made a good speech, and he has made some great contributions on this area over some time. He talked I also want to draw attention to the comments of about the low prosecution and conviction rate, which is Women’s Aid on new clause 9(8). I do not actually believe, absolutely a concern for all of us. However, I hope he as the hon. Lady suggested, that deleting subsection (8)(a) will recognise that this is not simply a matter of would be helpful; in fact, it would weaken the subsection. legislation—it is also a matter of enforcement and the However, I share the general concerns that we must way the police approach these issues. That is why Her ensure that this particular element of the new clause is Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary looked into them appropriately worded and does what it is supposed to and why the Government were completely right to do, which is to provide a legitimate defence for those require each of the 43 police forces to say what they with a legitimate reason and not a way out for those were doing about domestic violence and domestic abuse. who seek to exploit it. No doubt, subsequent to my departure, those reports Polly Neate, the chief executive of Women’s Aid, says have arrived at the Home Office and are being pursued that as they should be. “the reality of the pattern of control and fear women experiencing It is not necessarily the case that tougher domestic abuse describe to us” violence law is the answer; we need a combination shows that of appropriate law and appropriate enforcement. My “the very nature of coercive control is that both the perpetrator’s impression was that a large part of the problem was and the victim’s perception of what is in her best interest are that the police did not have the correct mindset to take commonly distorted. In a situation where the alleged perpetrator matters forward and were not looking at this issue with 187 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 188 the seriousness that Members of Parliament have been for Dwyfor Meirionnydd talked about the need for looking at it. It is that, more than anything else, that every police service to develop written policies and needs to change. standards, but on the transporting of victims and Colleagues on both sides of the House will remember families—this was referred to in terms of refuges in the that the police were not even photographing examples private Member’s Bill of the right hon. Member for of domestic abuse when they came across them, and Lewes—there might be an opportunity to develop best evidence was not collected. There was a catalogue of practice so that a safe and secure means of transport is failures, and I hope that is being sorted out. Nevertheless, provided for victims and children. Information about that is a major reason why the conviction rate is so low their whereabouts could therefore not be disclosed to in this country compared with elsewhere. the very people who are trying to overturn the efficacy The right hon. Gentleman has a couple of good of a court order or a place of safety. points in his new clauses. Again, it would be helpful if I make those points generally. I am not expecting the Government reflected on those points to see whether comprehensive responses today. I merely flag the issues there is some merit in taking them forward. I was struck up for the Solicitor-General’s consideration in due course. by his point about not disclosing current addresses or postcodes—that was in new clause 3(3). Certainly, the The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to all right hon. case he referred to made that point well. There was also and hon. Members who have taken part in probably one his point about the power to require those convicted of of the most significant debates that we have had in an offence to complete a domestic violence programme Committee. In order to do as much justice as I can to or an appropriate counselling programme. Again, the everyone, I will try to answer all the points made. point was well made. We should reflect on those two I will deal first with the speech made by the right hon. points to see whether they can be taken forward sensibly— Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, who talked about not necessarily through legislation, but through guidance pieces of legislation being like the proverbial buses that or some other means—because they have validity. do not come around and then there are two at once. I Lastly, I draw the Minister’s attention to a private was waiting at the bus stop with him—on two occasions. Member’s Bill in my name that is being debated on Our work together on the law on harassment and Friday. It seeks to deal with the one area in which we stalking and now on domestic abuse will certainly live have not been as successful as I would have liked us to long with me as proof that things can be done by this be in government, namely the provision of refuges place and that change can be made if there is a will and throughout the country. That is because they have not a cross-party purpose to boot. been centrally controlled—I am not saying that they should be centrally controlled, but central Government’s I want to deal with the new clause that the right hon. levers of influence have been fewer than in other areas. Gentleman tabled and consider properly the reasons for Different local authorities are taking different approaches, the Government’s slightly different approach. The so we have seen a patchwork outcome. As a result, in Government new clause has no reference to domestic some areas refuges are not present, or poor commissioning violence or domestic abuse. That is deliberate. We are by local authorities has achieved the wrong result with dealing with specific behaviour that can be characterised the money they have. For example, some might exclude as coercive or controlling, but that should not be the women who come from a different area and limit access subject of over-prescriptive statutory definition, which to women from that area, which is clearly bonkers. If would do a disservice to victims. Myriad different people are trying to escape violence, they do not want to relationships exist that are clearly, to the observer, be in a refuge close to where they were living. Such dysfunctional, controlling and coercive. Victims would issues need to be sorted out, so I commend my private not be assisted by the creation of artificial definitions Member’s Bill to the Minister. I trust that he will have a that could be misused. We did not fall into that trap word with the Whips on Friday to ensure that it does when it came to the law on stalking and harassment. We not face objections. should not fall into it now with the law on coercive and controlling behaviour within the context of domestic Andy McDonald: It is a delight, as ever, Ms Clark, to abuse. serve under your chairmanship. I wish to flag up one or The law serves a different purpose from the published two issues, but also to congratulate Members on both guidance and the definition of domestic violence that is sides of the Committee, because there have been some contained within it. We must ensure that we do not terrific contributions. The level of knowledge and expertise duplicate existing law, that the law is practical and that is heartening. it can be used by criminal justice professionals. In I want to flag up something for the Solicitor-General, drafting the new offence we worked carefully with the not for a response today, because that would not be draftsmen to make it clear but not over-prescriptive. right, but for future reference. Often, domestic violence In the consultation, we identified a gap in the law— is not carried out by a single perpetrator; it is inflicted behaviour that we would regard as abuse that did not by many people in a family, or by an extended network. amount to violence. Again, that is perhaps the important In that context, I have a concern about the disclosure of difference between the thrust of the probing provisions information by third parties as to the whereabouts of a tabled by the right hon. Gentleman and the Government victim of domestic violence and about steps taken by new clause. Violent behaviour already captured by the third parties to undermine the effectiveness of any criminal law is outside the scope of the offence. Within court order, be that by disclosing information or interfering the range of existing criminal offences a number of with the safety of children. tools are at the disposal of the police and prosecution, The Solicitor-General might wish to reflect on that which are used day in and day out. We do not want and to have a discussion on a later day, but another duplication or confusion; we want an extra element that issue is to do with new clause 6. The right hon. Member closes a loophole. 189 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 190

[The Solicitor-General] The right hon. Gentleman asked various questions, which he helpfully put in writing, and I have written to Having listened carefully to front-line professionals him. He will have received my letter, which has been and groups such as Women’s Aid, and other groups copied, today. I will deal quickly with some of the mentioned in the debate such as Paladin and the Sara points he raised. On the application of the new offence Charlton Charitable Foundation, we understand fully where two former partners no longer live together, the that the stalking and harassment legislation, which offence will not apply in such circumstances, but of should afford protection for victims through the criminal course we have existing legislation on stalking and and civil courts, is applied inconsistently when it comes harassment to deal with the circumstances in which to intimate relationships. We believe that our new clause coercive behaviour goes on beyond the marriage and will deal with that problem. the relationship, and beyond the couple’s living together. We do not want victims to be deterred by a legal The provision deals with the loophole where people are framework that does not work for them and that captures still in an intimate relationship. circumstances that fall short of the isolation and control I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says about a they have experienced. I fear, despite the right hon. maximum sentence. I entirely agree that very long prison Gentleman’s admirable intentions, that his new clauses sentences, which are available for very serious offences, could create loopholes and that they would fall short of should be meted out. We are dealing with serious conduct, the aspirations that he rightly has. but non-violent conduct, which is why the offences are It is right to deal with the defence, as several Members either way and therefore triable in the Crown court, and have raised that. A balance must be struck. It is important why we have adopted the same level as adopted for the to remember that the offence is not a subjective test that most serious stalking offences following the reforms. can easily be manipulated by cunning perpetrators. Importantly, under the provision, such behaviour must Mr Llwyd: The Solicitor-General says that the provision be reasonable in all the circumstances. It is not just a will not apply to divorced couples, but is there not a question of A saying “I think it was in B’s best interest.” slight conflict? New clause 9(6)(e) states that couples There is an objective element to the test that allows the who magistrate or jury to apply commonly understood principles “have entered into a civil partnership agreement (whether or not of justice. What is reasonable in the circumstances the agreement has been terminated)” should be considered through the objectivity test. would be caught, but couples who divorce would not. The burden is evidential rather than legal, rather as it is with self-defence—something that many right hon. Norman Baker: It is (6)(a). and hon. Members will be familiar with. Again, we know that in the law of self-defence there needs to be a genuine and reasonable belief. It cannot simply be used Mr Llwyd: I apologise. as an easy get-out when it comes to the commission of offences. I am satisfied that the way in which the defence The Solicitor-General: What I am saying is that it is is drafted—let us not forget it excludes the threat of not dependent upon the actual act of divorce or termination violence, which is important—will provide the necessary of a partnership. I am talking about when couples are balance and take out those obvious cases of care that not living together. They might not be nisi or absolute, should not be within the purview of the provision. or there might not be a dissolution of the partnership. It is where they are not living together. That is the point 4pm that was concerning some practitioners in the field. I hope I have clarified that point. I took very seriously the Mr Llwyd: The Solicitor-General understands the point that was raised not only by the right hon. Gentleman, concerns—he has addressed them—but he will also but by Advocacy After Fatal Domestic Abuse, which know that people such as Harry Fletcher, who has been was another charity that took the trouble to contact me working extremely hard in putting these new clauses directly about the matter. together, are still a little concerned. I am sure the Solicitor-General will ensure that prosecutors are fully I will also put on the record the fact that I met up to speed on this matter, otherwise—I know he is Women’s Aid late last week to talk about the concerns aware of it and that he does not want it to happen—this that it had about the defence and about its application. I could undermine the efficacy of the whole new clause, think we agree absolutely that training is key. we would all be wasting time and, worse still, be raising On anonymity for victims, a powerful point was hopes outside. made about Eve’s law. I am very familiar with that campaign and, in particular, with the problem that Eve The Solicitor-General: I agree with the right hon. Thomas had when it came to the civil jurisdiction. Gentleman, which is why the training of police, prosecutors When it comes to the criminal jurisdiction, the Coroners and judges—everybody involved in implementing the and Justice Act 2009 confers powers on the court to provisions—is vital. I want to make sure—he made this make a witness anonymity order. point in the context of stalking—that any commencement I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government’s of the provisions is consistent with proper training. It violence against women and girls action plan, which is will take time to get proper training done, but let us do for this year, is empowering the Home Office and the it properly so that we do not unduly raise the expectations Ministry of Justice. They have committed to producing of victims, only to find that we see poor implementation, a new code of practice for protecting identities and safe a lack of understanding and in effect a complete let-down addresses of domestic abuse victims. That has to apply of those whom we seek to protect through the new across the piece. Eve’s campaign and Eve’s law is about provisions. ensuring that the criminal, civil and family jurisdictions 191 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 192 are all talking to each other when it comes to the need related to the police response to domestic abuse. The for anonymity. The Government absolutely understand Home Secretary responded by setting up a new national the powerful point made and I pay tribute to Eve oversight group to drive delivery against the report’s Thomas for her campaign. recommendations. That includes work by the College of I want to mention perpetrators and perpetrator Policing to establish new professional standards for the programmes. I am sure that a lot of right hon. and hon. policing of domestic abuse. My right hon. Friend wrote Members have been involved in their constituencies, as I to chief constables setting out her expectation that have, in making the point that, if we do not deal with every force should have in place an action plan to the perpetrators, we will never fully deal with the scourge improve their responses to domestic abuse. I am happy of domestic abuse. It is important that male role models to say that all 43 forces have now published action stand up and talk about how wrong domestic abuse plans, which have been quality reviewed by HMIC. I am is—I certainly have in my capacity as a constituency sure we were all pleased to note that Sir Tom Winsor’s MP—and that work is done to ensure that there are report, which was released in November, highlighted accredited programmes. I am pleased to say that the encouraging progress. I can see the thrust of the approach Offender Rehabilitation Act 2014 will introduce a new of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, but rehabilitation activity requirement, which courts can I am sure that he would agree that it is through those use to determine appropriate interventions, including measures, rather than primary legislation, that we will programmes aimed at domestic violence perpetrators. achieve the leadership and driving up of standards that are essential. Seema Malhotra: I wish to acknowledge the point The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston referred that the Solicitor-General made, in relation to Eve’s law to the police and crime commissioner for Northumbria. and campaign, about the importance of anonymity in One of my predecessors, Vera Baird QC, is doing admirable court. I want to pick up on the points that he is making, work in providing some leadership on training, particularly very effectively, about perpetrator programmes by of the judiciary. It is an example of how police and recognising the work of Respect, which this week launched crime commissioners work and are doing an effective its final report on Project Mirabal, which contains some job. We should remember that in the context of the good insights and lessons that I am sure will continue to wider debate on their efficacy. They do have a role to be valuable in the debate about perpetrator programmes play, and Vera Baird is certainly doing that. and what makes them effective. The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd asked about the gathering of evidence. I assure him and The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to the hon. Lady the Committee that section 8 of the Police and Criminal for bringing that up. In that context, it is right to talk Evidence Act 1984 will apply to investigations of the about the domestic violence protection orders—the new new offence of coercive control. It allows the police to civil orders that deal with powers for the police and apply for search warrants to gain access to materials, such magistrates courts to put in place protection in the as bank statements, that are likely to be of substantial immediate aftermath of a domestic violence incident, value to the investigation where they are relevant evidence. preventing perpetrators from returning to the residence We can already think of examples of coercive control, and from having contact with a victim for up to 28 days. such as where one bank account or debit card is controlled That gives the victim breathing space so that they can by one partner, with no access to finance or resources for consider their options, rather than in the context of a the victim. That would clearly be important evidence. constricted and often panicked immediate reaction when That brings me to the general point on how evidence nobody has any time to think straight or to come to is to be gathered. I have given the right hon. Gentleman some sort of conclusion about their options. one example. We already have experience under the new One option that a victim might choose during that stalking and harassment legislation of how to gather 28-day period is the application for a non-molestation evidence on a course of abusive conduct. It all starts order. Breach of those orders can be a criminal offence. with a properly gathered complainant’s statement, After trial, there is the power to apply for restraining painstakingly setting out the course of events that that orders in domestic violence and abuse cases on the person has had to live with. From that section 9 statement conviction or, in fact, the acquittal of a defendant. should flow a police investigation that seeks to substantiate Criminal behaviour orders were introduced by the Anti- the claims that are made. It is not to start with an social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 and can impossible task by any means. Yes, there will be some be issued by any criminal court against an offender who complex cases, but experience has shown that neither is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to another the police nor the Crown Prosecution Service has been person. They can include not only prohibitory requirements, deterred from pursuing cases to successful conclusions, but positive ones to get the offender to start to address and I see no exception to that here. When it comes to the underlying causes of their behaviour. detail, we will publish statutory guidance that will address If perpetrator engagement is done well, it can be the issues and concerns raised by Members. effective. In the minds of many victims, there are concerns I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment behind about how perpetrators are engaged with. Practitioners new clause 27, which was tabled by the hon. Member in the field understand that. Sensitively applied, thorough, for Feltham and Heston. The police, wherever they are careful perpetrator engagement programmes can work—not in the country, should have ready access to information in every circumstance, but where it is finely judged, they on serial abusers and stalkers. That is absolutely vital if are a proper option. we are to manage effectively the risk that they pose. Police standards and training are the thrust of new From my many meetings with such organisations as clause 6. Last March, there was the important report Paladin, I understand the need for risk management from Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, which and risk assessment of serial perpetrators. 193 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 194

[The Solicitor-General] which the person was prosecuted. Looking at that, the right hon. Gentleman and I would know that the particular The hon. Lady referred to the need to establish a section—I think it is 4A—would tell us that it is a bespoke register of such individuals. As I understand it, stalking offence. If that process is followed properly, the new clause is slightly different from the Lords those reading it should have an easy understanding that amendment, in that it does not propose a fully blown that was a stalking offence, as opposed to simple register as pursuant to the Sex Offenders Act 1997, harassment. He is right to make the point, because which created a register on which all certain types of clearly the quality of recording is always important. serious sex offender have to register on conviction. The I hope that I can offer the hon. Member for Feltham new clause proposes more of a database and sets out and Heston some reassurance. It is possible to flag the means by which information would be collected. It recorded offences on the PNC as domestic abuse cases. is important to note that convicted stalkers and domestic We know, however, following the HMIC report, that abusers are already captured on the police national that is not done consistently. We are addressing that by computer, but we should always look to try to improve mandating a national data standard from 2015-16 that how data are recorded, accessed and shared. will ensure that all forces systematically capture all convictions for domestic abuse-related recordable offences. 4.15 pm That is an important change that will go a long way to Seema Malhotra: I want to touch on the point about dealing with the mischief she rightly identifies. what information is held on the police national computer versus the police national database. It is not clear what is held or what is transferred from local forces, where Mr Reed: I am working closely with Croydon council 43 police areas have their own local databases. There is on its campaign. It insists, as do the local police, that inconsistency about what goes on to the police national the existing ways to capture and share data are inadequate database. On the police national computer, I do not to alert them to the risks. The Minister says that the believe that there is anything that would automatically Government are looking at new ways to capture that identify domestic violence perpetrators, because they data, but will he at least agree to consult the sector could be prosecuted and convicted for a range of crimes. directly affected—voluntary organisations, local authorities Unless there is a flag on there saying DV, there would be and police—on whether what he proposes will meet its no way of knowing that that common assault offence requirements for effectiveness before he takes a final was DV-related. There are still conversations to have view on the register? about what is held and what is accessible for the purposes of this policy goal. The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to the hon. The Solicitor-General: I note what the hon. Lady says Gentleman. What I can say is that the Government will about perpetrators and offenders who have a range of look very carefully at the rolling out of the national offences. Sometimes in the past, when there has been a data standard to make sure that the aspiration and the lead offence, perhaps involving serious violence, that recommendation made by Sir Tom Winsor is carried has been flagged, but it has not necessarily been reflected out. We want a national flagging system so that the in the data. sorts of problems that his council and local police There is, of course, a difference between the police officers talk about are dealt with. We do not have that at national database and the police national computer. the moment. We have the national database, which can The difference is essentially about intelligence, as opposed give a picture of individuals, but we still do not have to the fact of conviction. The PNC holds details of all consistency on the PNC. It is this year that it is happening. convictions and cautions for recordable offences. The We need to keep a very close eye on the rolling out of PND holds data on crime custody records, child abuse, the national data standard and if that, for whatever domestic abuse and intelligence. In addition, the PND reason, still does not deliver what we all want to see, will link records from the different systems and different then, of course, all these matters should be looked at in forces into a match group, which is deemed to pertain to due course. one real-life individual, so there is a more complete It is a question of continually monitoring the situation, picture of the offending behaviour. Through that, alerts but it is important to note that the Government are can be sent to notify officers when new data on a person, already taking real action to deal with the problems that location, object or event are loaded on to the PND. we have talked about. It is not, by any means, the only These are current data: 37 out of 43 forces provide step we are taking to manage effectively the risk posed daily uploads of data on domestic abuse cases; three by serial perpetrators. Following the report, the Home provide monthly updates and three are currently Secretary’s national oversight group on domestic implementing new systems, and consequently uploading abuse is overseeing work by the College of Policing to legacy updates only. Daily data loaded to the PND are evaluate current risk assessment techniques and to provide matched and indexed and available to all forces within practical advice on how to get the best from them. The 24 hours. college’s What Works Centre for Crime Reduction is also undertaking a review of the evidence base on Mr Llwyd: When there is a conviction for stalking, is the effectiveness of criminal justice interventions in it recorded as a breach of the Protection from Harassment reducing domestic abuse. That includes the effectiveness Act 1997 or is it specified as being an offence of stalking? of perpetrator programmes, to reference comments I made earlier. The Solicitor-General: It will depend on how the Police force action plans, which were published following input is made. The stalking legislation amended the the Home Secretary’s letter to chief constables, demonstrate 1997 Act, so it should specify the subsection under that the police are actively focusing on effective and 195 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 196 practical steps to identify and disrupt perpetrators. Of New Clause 10 course, this also complements the roll-out of the domestic violence disclosure scheme, which we all know as Clare’s GUIDANCE law, which allows the disclosure of information about a “(1) The Secretary of State may issue guidance about the perpetrator’s offending past. We have achieved this investigation of offences under section (Controlling or coercive without the legislation, however well intentioned, proposed behaviour in an intimate or family relationship)towhatever in new clause 27. persons the Secretary of State considers appropriate. I shall deal briefly with the points made by my right (2) The Secretary of State may revise any guidance issued hon. Friend the Member for Lewes. On the question of under this section. “two or more occasions”, that is, quite properly, deliberately (3) The Secretary of State must arrange for any guidance left open to allow proper consideration of the full issued or revised under this section to be published.”.—(The circumstances of the case and we will provide further Solicitor-General.) guidance on this in the statutory guidance, as he suggested. This New Clause confers a power on the Secretary of State to issue guidance about the investigation of offences under New Clause (NC9) Taking a leaf out of the harassment and stalking book, [Controlling or coercive behaviour in an intimate or family it will depend very much on the facts of each case. A relationship]. course of conduct has to be established on at least two Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added occasions under that legislation and it has been proved to the Bill. to work very well. There have been a number of case authorities about the nature and frequency of incidents, but there is no hard and fast rule, nor should there be, New Clause 11 because each case will be different and will depend upon individual evidence. PREVENTION OR RESTRICTION OF USE OF I remind my right hon. Friend of where we are. He COMMUNICATION DEVICES BY PRISONERS ETC did a lot of work when he was a Minister on the “(1) Regulations may make provision conferring power on a investment that we have made over the past two years—up court to make a telecommunications restriction order. to £10 million—to stop refuges closing and to help local (2) “Telecommunications restriction order” means an order authorities grow refuge provision for vulnerable victims. requiring a communications provider to take whatever action the This is all part of the work we have to do to increase order specifies for the purpose of preventing or restricting the use of communication devices by persons detained in custodial confidence among victims that not only will they have a institutions. safe haven if there is nowhere else to go, but that they will be listened to with the utmost seriousness and taken (3) Regulations under this section must— seriously when they make a complaint about violence or (a) specify who may apply for telecommunications coercive and controlling behaviour. restriction orders; (b) make provision about giving notice of applications; In putting forward the offence in new clause 9, the Government considered very carefully the 757 responses (c) make provision conferring rights on persons to make representations; to the public consultation. We have used that feedback to hone our proposals and to ensure that we can deliver (d) specify the matters about which the court must be the best possible outcome for victims. Having heard my satisfied if it is to make an order; explanations, I hope that my right hon. Friend and the (e) make provision about the duration of orders (which may include provision for orders of indefinite other Members of the Committee who have spoken will duration); understand why the Government’s new offence is framed as it is and will withdraw their amendments. I firmly (f) make provision about variation (including extension) and discharge of orders; believe that our proposals will deliver our shared aim plainly and proportionately. (g) make provision about appeals. (4) Regulations under this section may— (a) make provision for a telecommunications restriction Mr Llwyd: The Solicitor-General has examined the order to specify that a requirement of the order is not amendments in great detail and responded in full. I do to apply in particular circumstances; not think that I could have expected any more, to be (b) make provision authorising a court to include in an honest. New clauses 3 to 6 are, more or less, encapsulated order a requirement for the person applying for the order to pay any or all of the costs of complying with in new clauses 9 and 10. It would therefore be churlish it; and not a little foolish of me to do anything other than (c) make provision about time limits for complying with say that I will not press new clauses 3 to 6 to a Division. orders; (d) make provision about enforcement of orders (which may include provision creating offences); Seema Malhotra: I also acknowledge the detail with (e) make provision about costs (or, in Scotland, expenses) which the Minister has responded. On new clause 27, I in respect of legal proceedings; was pleased to hear a positive response with (f) make different provision for different purposes; acknowledgment of the issue and of the fact that we may need to look at whether current arrangements are (g) make incidental, consequential, supplementary or transitional provision, including provision applying fit for purpose. We will not press the new clause on this any enactment (with or without modifications). occasion but reserve the right to raise the issue again (5) The power to make regulations under this section is following further exploration. exercisable— Question put and agreed to. (a) in relation to England and Wales, by statutory New clause 9 accordingly read a Second time, and instrument made by the Secretary of State; added to the Bill. (b) in relation to Scotland, by the Scottish Ministers. 197 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 198

(6) A statutory instrument (other than a Scottish statutory (6) In section 48 (Causing or inciting child prostitution or instrument) containing regulations under this section is not to be pornography)— made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and (a) in the title of the section, for “prostitution” substitute approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament. “sexual exploitation”; and (7) Regulations made by the Scottish Ministers under this (b) in subsection (1)(a), for “become a prostitute” section are subject to the affirmative procedure. substitute “be sexually exploited”. (8) In this section— (7) In section 49 (Controlling a child prostitute or a child “communication device” means an item specified in involved in pornography)— section 1(3) of the Prisons (Interference with (a) in the title of the section, for “prostitute” substitute Wireless Telegraphy) Act 2012 (mobile telephones “sexually exploited child”; and etc); (b) in subsection (1)(a), for “prostitution” substitute “communications provider” means a person providing “sexual exploitation”. a service that consists in the provision of access to, and of facilities for making use of, any (8) In section 50 (Arranging or facilitating child prostitution telecommunication system (whether or not one or pornography)— provided by that person); (a) in the title of the section, for “child prostitution or “court” means— pornography” substitute “the sexual exploitation of a child or child pornography”; and (a) in relation to England and Wales, the county court; (b) in subsection (1)(a), for “prostitution” substitute “sexual exploitation”. (b) in relation to Scotland, the sheriff; (9) In section 51 (Sections 48 to 50: interpretation), in “custodial institution” means— subsection (2), for “prostitute” substitute “sexual exploitation”; (c) in relation to England and Wales, a prison, for “prostitution” substitute “sexually exploited”. young offender institution, secure training (10) All reference in other legislation to the above sections and centre or secure college; titles should be treated as referring to the amended titles (d) in relation to Scotland, a prison or young above.’—(Ann Coffey.) offenders institution; Brought up, and read the First time. “enactment” includes— (e) an enactment contained in subordinate legislation within the meaning of the Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I beg to move, That Interpretation Act 1978; the clause be read a Second time. (f) an enactment contained in, or in an instrument made under, an Act of the Scottish Parliament; The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss “telecommunication system” means any system the following: (including the apparatus comprised in it) that New clause 2—Child Sexual Exploitation: Consent— exists (whether wholly or partly in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) for the purpose of “(1) The Sexual Offences Act 2003 is amended as follows. facilitating the transmission of communications (2) In section 9 (Sexual activity with a child), after by any means involving the use of electrical or subsection (3), insert— electro-magnetic energy.”.—(The Solicitor- “(4) A Court shall presume that a defendant, A, does not General.) believe that B is aged 16 or over if there is evidence to This New Clause enables the Secretary of State and the Scottish suggest that B is a victim of child sexual exploitation Ministers to make regulations, subject to the affirmative procedure, in which A is involved; unless A adduces evidence conferring power on the civil courts to make an order requiring a which raises an issue as to his reasonable belief in communications provider to take action to prevent or restrict the use of whether B was aged 16 or over at the time or unauthorised mobile telephones etc by prisoners. immediately before the offence. Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added (5) Child sexual exploitation is any scheme or offence to the Bill. which is calculated or designed to create a position whereby B can be exploited so that B is or might be the subject of a sexual offence.” New Clause 1 (3) In section 75 (Evidential presumptions about consent), after subsection (2)(f), insert— CHILD SEXUAL EXPLOITATION “(g) the complainant was a victim of child sexual ‘(1) The Sexual Offences Act 1956 is amended as follows. exploitation: or (2) In section 28 (Causing or encouraging prostitution of, (h) the defendant can be shown to have been directly intercourse with, or indecent assault on, girls under sixteen)— involved in child sexual exploitation. (a) in the title of the section, for “prostitution” substitute ( ) In this section, “child sexual exploitation” means any “the sexual exploitation”; scheme of offence as defined by section 9(5).”” (b) in subsection (1), for “prostitution” substitute “sexual New clause 24—Duty to publish information: National exploitation”; and Crime Agency— (c) in subsection (2), for “become a prostitute” substitute “(1) The Director General of the National Crime Agency “been sexually exploited”. (NCA) must— (3) In section 29 (Causing or encouraging prostitution of (a) make arrangements for publishing statistical defective), in subsection (1), after “woman”, insert “, aged 18 or information with regard to allegations of child sexual over,”. exploitation and abuse, and (4) In section 1(1) of the Street Offence Offences Act 1959 (b) publish information in accordance with those (Loitering or soliciting for purposes of prostitution), after arrangements. “female)”, insert “, aged 18 or over,”. (2) This information must include the number of cases of child (5) The Sexual Offences Act 2003 is amended as follows. sexual exploitation and abuse reported each year to the Agency.” 199 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 200

Amendment 1, in schedule 4, page 112, line 1, at end “involvement or suspected involvement of a child accommodated insert— at the home in prostitution” “( ) In section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (Rape of a be changed to child under 13), after subsection (2) insert— “suspicion that a child accommodated in a home is at risk of (3) For the purposes of this Act, the consent of a child under abuse or child sexual exploitation”. the age of 13 is irrelevant. I am pleased that that has now been done. (4) The common law of “ostensible consent” in relation to sexual offences is hereby abolished. In a 2012 report entitled, “Out of place: The policing (5) For the purposes of sentencing an offender in connection and criminalisation of sexually exploited girls and young with offences under this Act in relation to a child, a court shall women”, the Howard League for Penal Reform highlighted presume the consent of child to be absent.” the importance of language: “To speak of girls and young women’s involvement in prostitution without also stating that they are emotionally, physically or Ann Coffey: It is a pleasure to serve under your economically coerced is now the same as saying ‘girls and young chairmanship, Ms Clark. women’s involvement in their own abuse’. To state that they are New clause 1 stands in my name and that of my hon. involved in prostitution is regarded as a denial that they are being Friend the Member for Rotherham. It seeks to remove abused.” all references to child prostitution in legislation, substituting In April 2013, Barnardo’s published a report of the the phrase “child sexual exploitation”. Currently, 16 pieces parliamentary inquiry into the effectiveness of legislation of legislation use the term “child prostitution”, a phrase for tackling child sexual exploitation and trafficking that implies choice, consent and a commercial contract. within the UK. That inquiry was ably chaired by my Offences under section 1 of the Street Offences Act 1959 hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham. It recommended as amended by section 16 of the Policing and Crime Act the removal of all references to child prostitution in 2009 can still be committed by a child aged 10 or over. legislation, as did the report I produced last October. There is no doubt that in recent years much has been Indeed, it has the support of the Minister, the hon. done to take the word “prostitute” in relation to children Member for Staffordshire Moorlands, who said at the out of Government guidance, an important move because conclusion of Second Reading: language shapes attitudes. Six years ago, the sexual “I want to be absolutely clear that children who are sexually exploitation of children was still being referred to as exploited, whether for commercial or other reasons, should not be child prostitution in statutory guidance. Fresh guidance referred to as prostitutes. They should be recognised as victims in 2009 was entitled “Safeguarding children and young and we will certainly consider references in older legislation and people from sexual exploitation”, whereas previous guidance guidance as opportunities arise, as well as considering carefully the wording used in any new legislation or guidance.”—[Official from 2000 had been entitled “Safeguarding children Report, 5 January 2014; Vol. 590, c. 123.] involved in prostitution”. I am offering the Solicitor-General an opportunity to Attitudes are changing. Between 1992 and 1996 there do just that. were 1,449 cautions—about 300 a year—for prostitution by under 18-year-olds and 976 court proceedings for We need to see some action on this. It was raised in loitering or soliciting for the purpose of prostitution 2012, and the Government accepted the recommendations under the 1959 Act. Between 2010 and 2013, 15 cautions in the Children’s Commissioner’s report at that time. I were received by juveniles under the age of 18 and there hope that the Solicitor-General will give some indication were proceedings against seven defendants under the of how and when that action will happen. A lot has age of 18; of those seven, three were found guilty but been done in this Parliament to raise awareness and none was imprisoned. Last year, there were five cautions start to tackle child sexual exploitation by introducing for prostitution-related offences for those aged 15 to 17; both new legislative measures and guidance. As he said there were proceedings against two, who were found a few minutes ago, change can be made by this place if guilty. there is a will. It would be good if this was the Parliament that abolished the offensive, inappropriate and damaging It is vital that wider cultural attitudes are tackled and term “child prostitution” in our legislation. changed if we are to protect children and young people from sexual exploitation. The new clause to remove reference to child prostitution has widespread support. In 2012, the interim report by the Office of the Children’s Sir Andrew Stunell: I want to say first that the hon. Commissioner on sexual exploitation in gangs and groups, Member for Stockport has done a huge amount of “I thought I was the only one. The only one in the work on this and we should all give her credit for that. world”, called for a Government review of all legislation We are in her debt and the debt of those who work with and guidance that made reference to children as prostitutes her for bringing this important issue forward. I do not or as involved in prostitution. In June 2013, the Home know precisely how the Solicitor-General will respond, Affairs Committee produced a report entitled, “Child but I hope that he will pick up the theme of what his sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming”, ministerial colleague the hon. Member for Staffordshire which supported all recommendations from the Office Moorlands said on Second Reading. I also hope that he of the Children’s Commissioner. will give us some assurance that, if not part of the Committee’s proceedings this afternoon, this important issue will at least be part of our consideration on 4.30 pm Report so that it can be dealt with as it should. It is In 2012, I chaired a joint all-party inquiry into quite clear that society and our understanding have children missing from care that called for changes to moved on. The time has come to get rid of this offensive schedule 5 of the Children’s Homes Regulations 2001. wording in our legislation and replace it with what we We recommended that the obligation on homes to notify really mean, which is child abuse. 201 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 202

Sarah Champion: I speak to support the new clauses Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. In addition, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport the proposal was that CEOP would become compliant and to give a voice to some of the young people whom with freedom of information legislation. Previously, in this impacts on. She mentioned the report of the inquiry line with the arrangements for the Serious Organised which I chaired with Barnardo’s and which she sat on. Crime Agency, it had been exempted from freedom of We made a very clear recommendation that the term information requests. Then, when the National Crime “child prostitution” should not be used in our legislation Agency was established, it was decided that it would not any more. Unfortunately, it is still used in 16 pieces of be freedom-of-information-compliant and that it would legislation. I met the Minister at the time, the right hon. be directly answerable to the Home Secretary, whereas Member for Lewes, who agreed with that position and previously the reporting line had been to an independent said that, as laws come up, we should look to change chair and board. them. I would like the Solicitor-General to make an We are not proposing necessarily that the solution to actual commitment to start doing that. It is fantastic the problem of transparency is to become FOI compliant. that we have the warm words, but if we could actually However, with proposed new clause 24 we are urging have some action that would be very positive. the Government to make provisions for the National One of the things that the young people who spoke to Crime Agency to publish statistical information about us in our inquiry said was that, because the term is still allegations of child sexual exploitation and abuse. The there, they will still hear it used against them in court or NCA has details of tens of thousands of people who by the police. Adults are allowed to use the term—it is have accessed vile images of child abuse, but only hundreds within the law, but the young people said that it made have been arrested and acted against. We are therefore them feel dirty, complicit, and disgusted with themselves. calling for the NCA to be transparent about the scale of I will briefly read out what I think is a poem by one of the problem and to publish information on allegations the victims from Rotherham, which sums up in her of child sexual exploitation and abuse. Thus far, there words exactly how the abuse makes them feel. She is a has been a distinct reluctance regularly to release such 17 year-old survivor, but was 14 at the time of the abuse. information—for example, on the number of people in “They call us slags, tarts, whores, up for it, trash, the UK who are accessing indecent images of children. trouble, prozzies. This name-calling was not just from We understand that some NCA areas cannot be the abusers but labelled upon us by the services that are subject to information requests, because of their sensitive supposed to protect us. How are those names helping nature, but it is wrong that the agency should be able to children who are victims of rape? My name is Sally. hide behind that exemption on the issue of child sexual Others call me daughter, sister, cousin, niece, grandchild. exploitation. If the NCA is properly to discharge its I am a survivor of child rape, so call me by my name, function, it must be willing to be open, not only with while I call myself a proud survivor.” local authorities, the police and front-line services as to I ask the Solicitor-General to act on these the scale of the problem but with the public. It is simply recommendations, work to remove the term, and support wrong that such information is not made available by the new clause. the NCA in the way that it should be and that other arms of government and agencies do so, not least because both Parliament and public want to hold the Jack Dromey: I did not intend to make a contribution, Government to account for whether they are acting but having been asked, I will speak very briefly about effectively to tackle that great national scandal. In addition, what we have just heard. A very powerful case has been it is simply wrong that the vast majority of those put. Archaic language is being used that is profoundly downloading vile child abuse images are not investigated insulting. The idea that we demonise victims by calling while children remain at risk. The NCA says that it does them prostitutes is entirely wrong and therefore we very not have the resources to investigate all cases, but the much hope that the Government will respond positively. police arrest more than 220,000 people a year for theft I turn now to clause 24. There is a great national will and more than 110,000 a year for drug offences. to tackle the obscenity of child sexual exploitation and In conclusion, our strong view is that the time has child abuse. Parliament has a duty to rise to that challenge. come for effective transparency on the part of the NCA There is much in the Bill that is welcome; indeed, we to inform precisely the kind of great national debate have sought to strengthen the Bill further. For example, now taking place, including, in the context of the two while we accept that we have got to get mandatory inquiries, why we do not have a much more robust reporting right—and therefore the consultation process approach to going after those evil people—overwhelmingly will move ahead—it is now clear as a consequence of men—who access such abuse images online. If we are our debate that it is no longer a question of if but of therefore to stay true to what the public want from us, when we will see the introduction of mandatory reporting. the NCA needs to open up in future. We very much Crucially, to tackle a problem, we have to know the hope that the Minister will respond positively. scale and nature of that problem, the better to inform the action that the Government and agencies take, The Chair: We are debating whether new clause 1 including in respect of the allocation of resources. The should be read a second time, but I understand that public have a right to know both the scale and nature of Ann Coffey wishes to speak on the other new clauses. the problem and to be reassured that we are rising to the challenge, taking all powers necessary, making available Ann Coffey: Thank you, Ms Clark. I will speak to the all resources necessary and holding Parliament and the other new clauses in the group. The aim of new clause 2 Government to account. Transparency is therefore key. is to support the new guidelines issued by the Sentencing Before 2010, in the document “The Way Forward”, the Council in April 2014 that the focus should be more on proposal was for a consolidation of child protection the offender’s actions and behaviour towards the victim measures and actions under the banner of the Child than on the victim’s behaviour. The provision would 203 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 204 create a presumption that a defendant did not believe Better protection of children will come from a change that a child was over 16 if there is evidence to suggest in attitudes towards children, a better understanding of that the child was a victim of child sexual exploitation vulnerability and the exploitation of that vulnerability in which the defendant was involved. Child sexual and a cultural shift that leads to change in the behaviour exploitation is an offence that is calculated or designed of adults towards children so that adults, and not the to create a position in which a child can be exploited children themselves, are seen as responsible for their and is or might be subject to a sexual offence. relationships with children. The judge’s summing up in I see new clause 2 as covering offences against children the case last week in which a teacher was convicted of by multiple men—children passed around for sex—victims sexual activity in a position of trust demonstrates how of grooming, which is intended to get children to accept far the judiciary have to go in understanding exploitative sexual activity, and victims of coercion, force, fear and relationships. More focus on the credibility of allegations intimidation. The provision would basically move the in the context of sexual offences against children would focus on to the offender to give evidence to substantiate help to shift the culture of victim-blaming and would his belief that a child was over 16. underline that it is the responsibility of adults to ensure that they are not exploiting or having sex with children. 4.45 pm Amendment 1 would amend section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which introduced separate offence We should not forget how traumatic cross-examination categories for children under the age of 13. The main in court is for some young witnesses. When I was difference between the under-13 offences and the equivalent preparing the “Real Voices” report that I produced last offences for those aged 13 and over is that a victim October, one young witness told me: under the age of 13 is deemed to be legally incapable of “There is not a word to describe how bad it was. I have never consenting to sexual behaviour. The under-13 offences experienced anything like that in my life, and I never want to were included in the Act following the policy decision to experience anything like that ever again… One of the barristers provide increased protection for younger children. However, was not even asking me questions, he was just shouting at me, and the 2007 sentencing guidelines state that, notwithstanding the judge kept having to tell him to stop.” that, there will be cases involving victims under 13 years In recent high-profile cases we were shocked not only by of age where there was in fact consent even though in the depths of depravity of the offenders when we heard law it cannot be given—that is known as ostensible about the abuse that they inflicted on the children who consent. were their victims but by the aggressive cross-examination by defence lawyers, which was designed to depict the The guidelines continue by stating that in such children as willing partners in the jurors’ eyes or suggest circumstances presence of consent may be material in that the defendant had reason to believe that the child, relation to sentencing. Since then, there has been a because of their behaviour or the way they dressed, was greater understanding of the grooming process. In 2012, over the age of legal consent. They were depicted not as the Sentencing Council issued a consultation, which children in need of protection, or as children at all, but stated: as sexual commodities complicit in their sexual abuse. “The Council feels it is important that, for these under 13 offences, cases where a child has been groomed into acquiescence are taken There is a widespread problem in wider society of as seriously by sentencers as cases where there is forced non-consensual adults not understanding their responsibilities to all sexual activity.” children—undeserving children as well as deserving children. When he was Director of Public Prosecutions, Barnardo’s stated in the consultation document: Keir Starmer made the point that all children should “Youngerchildren are increasingly at risk of sexual exploitation. have the protection of the criminal justice system. He The experience of at least a third of our services is that overall, issued new guidance in October 2013 and said: the children we are working with are getting younger…the average age of service users has fallen from 15 to around 13, and some “The final guidelines, which have been subject to a three month services have started working with children as young as 10.” public consultation, confirm that the now accepted approach is that the prosecution must focus on the overall credibility of an In April 2014 the Sentencing Council issued new guidelines allegation rather than the perceived weakness of the person that make it clear that victims are not responsible for making it.” what has happened to them. That is particularly emphasised New clause 2 would help to do that by focusing on the in relation to offences committed against children. In credibility of the defendant’s belief that a child victim the previous guidelines, some child sexual offences were of sexual exploitation was over 16. I do not believe that labelled as involving ostensible consent; that is, where the criminal justice system can eliminate child sexual a child aged over 13 has apparently agreed to sexual abuse. Indeed, in my research for the report I found activity. The Sentencing Council believes that that is the that, over the past six years, 13,000 reported cases of wrong way of looking at such offences, because children major sexual offences against children in Greater do not consent to their own abuse. The new guidelines, Manchester resulted in only 1,000 convictions. There therefore, look more at the offender’s action and behaviour are many reasons for that, as shown by “Achieving best towards the victim: evidence in child sexual abuse cases,”which was published “When dealing with the statutory offence of rape of a child by the Criminal Justice Joint Inspection in December under 13, the court may be faced with a wide range of offending 2014. The main reason was the way in which evidence is behaviour. Sentencers should have particular regard to the fact gathered for the court. We have a very adversarial court that these offences are not only committed through force or fear system, but progress is being made and there is better of force but may include exploitative behaviour towards a child support for witnesses. Cross examination is now focusing which should be considered to indicate high culpability.” on the credibility of the allegation. I look forward to New clause 2 is designed to ensure that the Bill meeting the recorder in Liverpool to discuss how the reflects our increased understanding of predatory behaviour section 28 pilot is proceeding. that is intended to groom a child into sexual acts, to 205 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 206 which a child should in no way be seen as consenting. YoungPeople from Sexual Exploitation” guidance, which The new clause would reinforce the fact that there can states that any child or young person who has been be no consent to sexual activity by a child under 13, and “forced into prostitution” should be it would remove any defence of ostensible consent. “treated by the CPS as an abused child and victim who needs help rather than as a defendant.” Therefore, we support the principle behind new clause 1. The Solicitor-General: I am happy to respond to hon. We have been clear, in response to the reports that I Members at the end of another stimulating debate. I am mentioned, that we will consider amending such references grateful to the hon. Member for Stockport, who has in existing legislation and guidance as opportunities helpfully brought us fully up to date the position with arise, as well as considering carefully the wording used regard to young victims. She has set out current thinking in any new legislation or guidance. I can see why the in the courts about what I will call the myth of consent, hon. Member for Stockport has taken the opportunity and about the fact that we are dealing with people who to table new clauses. are clearly in a position of inequality of bargaining power. There is no equivalence between the mind of a On new clause 1, I point out that sections 28 and 29 13-year-old and the mind of a 40-year-old. That has of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 were repealed by the been a problem that we have sometimes struggled to Sexual Offences Act 2003. Technically, we do not need deal with. to make those changes because the sections are no longer on the statute book. However, it is important to It would be wrong of me to comment about a case recognise that those changes would go further than that has just occurred—in fact, the case I am talking simply changing the nomenclature used in various statutes. about has been concluded and is not now within the A number of the proposed provisions would have the unduly lenient sentence scheme. I can think of other effect of changing the scope of various criminal offences. examples in which what has been referred to as ostensible As such, they require rather more careful examination. consent could actually be an aggravating factor, because Subsection (4) of new clause 1 seeks to amend section it was accompanied by a background of grooming, 1 of the Street Offences Act 1959, so that the offence of planning and cultivation to create the myth of consent. loitering or soliciting for the purposes of prostitution I am grateful to the hon. Lady for setting out the would apply only to adults. The Government recognise position. She is quite right to say that the guidelines of how the provision fits with the spirit of the hon. Member 2007 have been superseded entirely. The new guidelines for Stockport’s proposals. It could, however, have a contain no reference to ostensible consent; indeed, there material impact in terms of the criminality and enforcement is no reference to that phrase in the criminal law. I tools available to the police, and may risk unforeseen reassure her that that principle, if it ever existed, is not consequences. We certainly do not have a closed mind one that belongs in the statute book or in common law. to it but it is only right that we consider carefully the Neither is it part of any of the guidelines that are impact of that change with police and others before applied to sentencing in sexual offences. I will come coming to a final view. back to that briefly when I talk about the relevant amendments and new clauses. Norman Baker: My hon. and learned Friend has We all agree that child sexual exploitation is abhorrent, reiterated a point that I made in office, and that others and we are all determined to tackle it in whatever form have made: the term “prostitution” should not be used it takes. The Bill contains some excellent provisions, in this context. Although I am happy to accept his some of which we have debated, to help us to achieve analysis that new clause 1 is faulty, I am sure that that. Grooming and child sexual exploitation happen in Opposition Members would be happy to accept that if all areas of the country, and they take many different we could have an undertaking that the point will be forms. They are never acceptable, and we must all work dealt with. Will he undertake to come back with a together to ensure that those sickening crimes no longer Government amendment on Report to deal with this remain hidden and that offenders are brought to justice. better than the way it has been set out? The important points made by hon. Members today are an eloquent testament to the way in which some of The Solicitor-General: We are going to give further the most vulnerable people in our society are viewed careful consideration to both new clauses as a matter of after suffering appalling abuse. Those points reflect the urgency. I am not yet in a position to offer an assurance findings of a number of recent reports, such as following that the Government will table their own amendments the Office of the Children’s Commissioner’s inquiry on Report, but I can undertake to set out our conclusions into child sexual exploitation in groups and gangs, the in good time so that if the hon. Member for Stockport hon. Member for Rotherham’s cross-party inquiry into is not satisfied with those conclusions, she and others the effectiveness of child sexual exploitation legislation have the opportunity to re-table their own amendments, and, indeed, the report, “Real Voices”, on child sexual or a variation of them, on Report. We are getting to a exploitation in Greater Manchester, which was authored position where things are progressing. by the hon. Member for Stockport. New clause 2 is about consent and producing evidence The Government are clear that children who are to show a reasonable belief that the child was aged 16 or sexually exploited, whether for financial gain or other over at the time of, or immediately before, the alleged reasons, should not be referred to as “prostitutes”; offence. That is an evidential burden, and if it is raised rather, they should be recognised as victims. That is why the prosecution has to prove that the defendant did not the Government have acted to update guidance. For reasonably hold such a belief. example, the Department of Health’s “Safeguarding I was interested to hear some of the examples that the Children Involved in Prostitution”guidance from 2000 was hon. Member for Stockport provided. Of course, in replaced in 2009 by the “Safeguarding Children and many cases, the prosecution will not have to bring 207 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 208 forward specific evidence to prove that the belief was document for the NCA, which was laid before Parliament not reasonable because it will be apparent from the in October 2013, sets out how this obligation should be facts of the case that the defendant knew the age of the carried out. It provides that the director general will child. We will further consider the points that she made publish information where the material falls within one on that. or more of the following categories: first, the threat Subsection (3) of new clause 2 seeks to add the fact from serious, organised and complex crime; secondly, that the child was a victim of child sexual exploitation, general information about the NCA—who leads it, or the fact that the defendant can be shown to have what it does and how it does it; thirdly, the agency’s been directly involved in such exploitation, to the list of priorities and performance; fourthly, its spending; and circumstances that give rise to the consent presumptions fifthly, the summary of the records of NCA board in section 75 of the 2003 Act, which applies to offences meetings. of rape, assault by penetration, sexual assault, and The director general may edit, redact or decline to causing a person to engage in sexual activity without publish any information, the publication of which he consent. reasonably considers would prejudice or jeopardise, or would be likely to prejudice or jeopardise: the discharge of the NCA’s functions as set out in the Act; national 5pm security; the health and safety of any person; the commercial In a nutshell, the section provides that if it is proved interests of the NCA or any person; or evidence that that the defendant did the relevant act, and it is also might jeopardise diplomatic or international relations proved that any of the circumstances listed in that with foreign governments. These transparency arrangements section existed and that the defendant knew they existed, are set out in a document entitled “Transparency: The the victim will be taken not to have consented to the NCA Publication Approach”, which was published in relevant act, and the defendant will not be taken to have September 2014. reasonably believed the victim consented, unless sufficient evidence is adduced to raise an issue as to whether the The arrangements for publishing information are victim consented. clear. The National Crime Agency already publishes the information that the duty introduced by this new clause At the moment—rightly so—proof of such offences would demand. The published “National Crime Agency involving children under 16 does not require proof of Annual Report and Accounts 2013/14” includes data the absence of consent on the part of the victim. Consent on the number of referrals received by the child exploitation is irrelevant. Where rape or other consent-based offences and online protection command alongside the number are charged, the prosecution can benefit from the existing of intelligence packages disseminated and the numbers presumptions. They bear directly on the victim’s ability of children protected or safeguarded. Local police forces to give free consent at the time of the act in question. So also hold information on allegations of child sexual my immediate thought is that it might not be appropriate exploitation and abuse. Imposing a duty on the NCA to refer in that list to the more general circumstances along the lines proposed in the new clause would only surrounding the offence. Again, however, I undertake to give a partial view of the extent of enforcement activity. consider the matter further. The sensitivity of ongoing operations means that it is The amendment tabled by the hon. Member for right that the director general has the option to protect Stockport to section 5 of the 2003 Act seeks to clarify information relating to them so as not to jeopardise that the consent of a child under 13 is irrelevant in some of the desired outcomes. proceedings under the section that deals with the rape of a child under 13. As I have said, consent is not I hope I can assure the hon. Member for Birmingham, relevant in such a case. That is why the offence can be Erdington that his points, though well made, are already committed whether the child consented or not, so I do covered by fairly recent legislation and guidance, which not believe we need to clarify something that is already encourage robustness and transparency while protecting part of our law. certain information for operational requirements. I thank all Members for their speeches and the amendments I have already dealt with the guidelines that the hon. and new clauses they have submitted. I commend the Lady mentioned, and we will look at how her amendment Government’s new clause to the House and urge Members relates to such guidance as part of our consideration. to withdraw their amendment and new clauses. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington argued in favour of new clause 24. I agree that transparency and robust accountability is crucial to the effective Ann Coffey: I entirely accept the Minister’s comments working of our law enforcement agencies. That is one of on amendment 1, which I am happy to withdraw. I took the reasons why the National Crime Agency was established, his response on new clause 2 to be positive, and I am with a direct line of accountability between the director pleased that he will give further consideration to the general to the Home Secretary and, through her, to issue that it attempted to raise. On new clause 1, I Parliament. There are already robust arrangements in believe that there is a lot of support for changing the place for the publication of information on allegations wording in legislation. I understand that there might be of child sexual abuse, without the need for the imposition unintended consequences, but I gently say that it was of an additional duty, however well intentioned. first proposed in 2012, so there has been a long time to Section 6 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013 already look at unintended consequences. provides that the director general of the NCA must I am anxious that we resolve the matter in this make arrangements for publishing information about Parliament, because it would be a fitting end to a the exercise of its functions and other matters relating Parliament in which there has been a lot of cross-party to the agency, and must publish information in accordance support in raising awareness of child sexual exploitation. with those arrangements. Annex A of the framework I am happy to wait to hear the Minister’s comments, but 209 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 210

[Ann Coffey] (2) A CAWN may be issued to a person (“A”) aged 18 years or over if the authorising officer has reasonable grounds for I am determined to push the matter to a Division on believing that— Report, where I hope I would have the support of the (a) A has without lawful authority or reasonable excuse House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. been found in the company of a child (“C”); and Clause, by leave, withdrawn. (b) C is reported missing and is found on two or more occasions to be in the company of A; or New Clause 14 (c) there is reason to suspect that C’s behaviour is, by reason of association with the defendant, giving INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER DUTY (PROTECTION OF significant cause for concern. CHILDREN) (3) Before issuing a CAWN, the authorising officer must, in ‘(1) Internet service providers which provide internet storage particular, consider— facilities to their users such as, but not limited to, cloud content (a) any representations made by the person with lawful storage, must seek to ensure their service is not used to store, authority for C; and transmit or display indecent images of children, contrary to section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 (indecent (b) any representations made by A as to the issuing of the photographs of children). CAWN. (2) Where it is evident to an internet service provider that their (4) The authorising officer must take reasonable steps to services or network is being misused as set out in subsection (1), discover the opinions mentioned in subsection (3). they must take all reasonable steps to mitigate, reduce, eliminate (5) A CAWN must prohibit A from being in the company or otherwise disrupt such misuse and restrict access to such of C. images. (3) In this section, “internet service provider” has the same 2B Contents and service of a child abduction warning notice meaning as in section 124N of the Communication Act 2003 ‘(1) A CAWN must state— (interpretation).’.—(Jack Dromey.) (a) the grounds on which it has been issued; Brought up, and read the First time. (b) that a constable may arrest A without warrant if the Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. constable has reasonable grounds for believing that A The Committee divided: Ayes 8, Noes 10. is in breach of the CAWN; Division No. 1] (c) that an application for a child abduction warning order under section 2D will be heard within 48 hours of the AYES time of service of the CAWN and a notice of the hearing will be given to A; Champion, Sarah McDonald, Andy Coffey, Ann Malhotra, Seema (d) that the CAWN continues in effect until that Dromey, Jack Reed, Mr Steve application has been determined; and Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Wilson, Phil (e) the provision that a magistrates’ court may include in a child abduction warning order. NOES (2) A CAWN must be in writing and must be served on A Beresford, Sir Paul Miller, rh Maria personally by a constable. Bradley, Karen Pincher, Christopher (3) On serving A with a CAWN, the constable must ask A for Buckland, Mr Robert Simpson, Mr Keith an address for the purposes of being given the notice of the Hinds, Damian Stunell, rh Sir Andrew hearing of the application for the child abduction warning order. Latham, Pauline Wheeler, Heather 2C Breach of a child abduction warning notice ‘(1) A person arrested by virtue of section 2B(1)(b) for a Question accordingly negatived. breach of a CAWN must be held in custody and brought before the magistrates’ court which will hear the application for the CAWO under section 2D— New Clause 16 (a) before the end of the period of 24 hours beginning with the time of the arrest; or OFFENCE OF ABUDUCTION OF CHILD BY OTHER PERSON (b) if earlier, at the hearing of that application. ‘In the Child Abduction Act 1984, in section 2(1) (offence of abduction of child by other person), for “sixteen” substitute (2) If the person is brought before the court by virtue of “eighteen”.’—(Mr Llwyd.) subsection (1)(a), the court may remand the person. Brought up, and read the First time. (3) If the court adjourns the hearing of the application by virtue of subsection 2D(8), the court may remand the person. Mr Llwyd: I beg to move, That the clause be read a (4) In calculating when the period of 24 hours mentioned in subsection (1)(a) ends, Christmas Day, Good Friday, any Sunday Second time. and any day which is a bank holiday in England and Wales under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 are to be The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss disregarded. the following: 2D Application for a child abduction warning order New clause 21—Child abduction warning notice— ‘(1) If a CAWN has been issued, a constable must apply for a ‘In the Child Abduction Act 1984, after section 2 (offence of child abduction warning order (“a CAWO”). abduction of child by other person) insert— (2) The application must be made by complaint to a “2A Power to issue a child abduction warning notice magistrates’ court. (1) A member of a police force not below the rank of (3) The application must be heard by the magistrates’ court no superintendent (“the authorising officer”) may issue a child later than 48 hours after the CAWN was served pursuant to abduction warning notice (“a CAWN”) under this section. section 2B(2). 211 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 212

(4) In calculating when the period of 48 hours mentioned in (4) If the person is remanded in custody for that purpose, the subsection (3) ends, Christmas Day, Good Friday, any Sunday adjournment may not be for more than three weeks at a time. and any day which is a bank holiday in England and Wales under (5) If the person is remanded on bail for that purpose, the the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 are to be adjournment may not be for more than four weeks at a time. disregarded. (6) If the court has reason to suspect that the person is (5) A notice of the hearing of the application must be given suffering from a mental disorder within the meaning of the to A. Mental Health Act 1983, the court has the same power to make (6) The notice is deemed given if it has been left at the address an order under section 35 of that Act (remand to hospital for given by A under section 2B(3). medical report) as it has under that section in the case of an accused person (within the meaning of that section). (7) But if the notice has not been given because no address was given by A under section 2B(3), the court may hear the (7) The court may, when remanding the person on bail, require application for the CAWO if the court is satisfied that the the person to comply before release on bail or later, with such constable applying for the CAWO has made reasonable efforts to requirements as appear to the court to be necessary to secure that give A the notice. the person does not interfere with witnesses or otherwise obstruct the course of justice. (8) The magistrates’ court may adjourn the hearing of the 2H Guidance application. ‘(1) The Secretary of State may issue guidance relating to the (9) If the court adjourns the hearing, the CAWN continues in exercise by a constable of functions under sections 2A to 2F. effect until the application has been determined. (2) A constable must have regard to any guidance issued under (10) On the hearing of an application of a CAWO, section 97 subsection (1) when exercising a function to which the guidance of the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980 (summons to witness and relates. warrant for his arrest) does not apply in relation to a person for (3) Before issuing guidance under this section, the Secretary of whose protection the CAWO would be made, except where the State must consult— person has given oral or written evidence at the hearing. (a) the Association of Chief Police Officers; 2E Conditions for and contents of a child abduction warning (b) the National Crime Agency; and order (c) such other persons as the Secretary of State thinks ‘(1) The court may make a CAWO if two conditions are met. fit.”’ (2) The first condition is that the court is satisfied on the This amendment establishes child abduction warning notices balance of probabilities that the conditions set out in section 3(2) (CAWNs) on a statutory basis, addressing concerns raised in the are satisfied. House of Lords on the issue, by introducing a two-stage process providing judicial oversight, without compromising the ability of the (3) The second condition is that the court thinks that making police to issue a CAWN without delay. The proposed process is similar the CAWO is necessary to protect C from harm as a result of to that in place for Domestic Violence Prevention Notices/Domestic association with A. Violence Prevention Orders (DVPN/DVPO). (4) A CAWO must state that a constable may arrest A without New clause 22—Age of child (abductions within England warrant if the constable has reasonable grounds for believing A is and Wales)— in breach of the CAWO. ‘In the Child Abduction Act 1984, insert— (5) A CAWO may be in force for— “(2A) References to the age of “sixteen” in section 2 are to be (a) no fewer than 14 days beginning with the day on which interpreted as references to the age of “eighteen” for the it is made; and purposes of any proceedings relating to abductions within (b) until the date of the 16th birthday of C. England and Wales.”’ (6) A CAWO must state the period for which it is to be in force. Mr Llwyd: I tabled new clause 16 in conjunction with 2F Breach of a child abduction warning order amendment 40, which we debated last week. Amendment 40 ‘(1) A person arrested by virtue of section 2E(4) for a breach would have raised the age in the definition of a child to of a CAWO must be held in custody and brought before a those under 18 years of age. The latter amendment was magistrates’ court within the period of 24 hours beginning with tabled to tackle the fact that at present, 16 and 17-year-olds the time of the arrest. are not afforded the same legal protection when they (2) If the matter is not disposed of when the person is brought suffer cruelty at the hands of an adult. New clause 16 before the court, the court may remand the person. was tabled in the same spirit: that 16 and 17-year-olds (3) In calculating when the period of 24 hours mentioned in should also be protected by legislation covering child subsection (1) ends, Christmas Day, Good Friday, any Sunday abduction, and that police should be able to issue child and any day which is a bank holiday in England and Wales under abduction warning notices for their protection, in the the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 are to be same way that they can for their younger counterparts. disregarded. Members will no doubt be aware that child abduction 2G Further provision about remand warning notices are tools that the police can use to ‘(1) This section applies for the purposes of the remand of a intervene in cases where they are concerned about an person by a magistrates’ court under section 2C(2) or (3) or inappropriate relationship between a child and an adult. 2F(2). The police can use such notices to prevent an adult (2) In the application of section 128(6) of the Magistrates’ from approaching or abducting a child whom they Court Act 1980 for those purposes, the reference to the “other believe is at risk. The notices can be used in court to party” is to be read— support evidence of potential child sexual exploitation, (a) in the case of a remand prior to the hearing of an among other crimes. At present, however, police can application for a CAWO, as a reference to the authorising officer; and issue child abduction warning notices only for children under age 16. My new clause would raise that age to 18. (b) in any other case, as a reference to the constable who applied for the CAWO. In 2013, Parents and Abducted Children Together (3) If the court has reason to suspect that a medical report will and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre be required, the power to remand a person may be exercised for published a joint report entitled “Taken”, which considered the purpose of enabling a medical examination to take place and the problem of child abduction in the UK. The report a report to be made. pointed out: 213 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 214

[Mr Llwyd] Another of the recommendations that came out of the inquiry that I did with Barnardo’s was the disparity “There is no single, comprehensive definition of child abduction between a child living at home, for whom child abduction in the UK. Different laws in different parts of the UK criminalise warning notices finish at 16, and children in care, for various acts which involve the taking of a child”, whom they finish at 18. I accept that children in care are including disproportionately likely to be victims of child sexual “parental abduction (often resulting in a child being taken overseas); exploitation, but the Committee must recognise that the abduction by a stranger; abduction resulting from exploitation, vast majority of children are still living at home. revenge or financial gain.” I am not sure whether other Members have had The authors of the report lamented the fact that an similar experiences, but a mother came into my surgery “offence of ‘child abduction’, as defined by the Child Abduction at her wit’s end. She knew that her 17-year-old was Act 1984, can only be recorded for victims under the age of 16.” hanging around with the wrong people, who she suspected The report also criticised the lack of a uniform definition were grooming her, and would not stay at home. The of child abduction, resulting in an inability to distinguish police and social services could not intervene because serious crimes such as murder or rape which involve the girl was 17. The mother was literally trying to lock abduction from those that do not. It bemoans the fact the girl in her bedroom, but she was breaking out and that no single source of data on child abduction in the climbing out of the window. Such an example is, UK currently operates, as different types of abduction unfortunately, very common. A lot of us might have come under different umbrellas. That is further complicated thought that that girl was an unruly teenager, but in this by the fact that only those under 16 are captured in day and age I hope that we would now think, “Maybe police data relating to child abduction cases. something more significant is going on.” At the moment, The report recommends that a national child abduction the situation is one that child abduction warning notices hub should be set up to develop policy, and that one of do not cover. Personally, I think it is unacceptable for its first functions should be to agree a UK-wide definition young people to get different protections dependent on of child abduction. Another key recommendation is whether they are living with their parents or are a ward that an evaluation should be conducted into the effectiveness of the state. The law should be consistent and have a of child abduction warning notices. consistent position regardless of the legal status of the child. Interestingly, a few minutes ago, the Solicitor-General prayed in aid the recent report by the Children’s New clause 21 is also to do with abduction warning Commissioner for England regarding the context of the notices. I have spoken in the Chamber on this subject last debate. It might please the Committee to hear that and I know that it was raised in the other place, but I in that report, the Children’s Commissioner asked the will briefly go through the main arguments again. Basically, Government to consider new clause 21 would make an important change to help “whether there should be an extension to the age limit from in the fight against child sexual exploitation. Child 16 years to 18 years within the provisions of the Child Abduction abduction warning notices are a useful tool for the Act 1984 regarding the abduction warnings process and that these police and are used mainly for gathering evidence and should be issued with or without parental consent, if deemed for building a case around someone who intends to go necessary.” on to groom and abuse a child. If we could put the In April 2014, Barnardo’s published a report following notices on a statutory basis, however, breaching them a parliamentary inquiry into child sexual exploitation would be an offence in its own right. As a result, well and trafficking, which recommended that child abduction before the grooming and the abuse happened, the police warning notices should be strengthened and that the could do something to protect the child. notices should be placed on a statutory footing, thus At the moment, the police are extremely limited in creating an offence of breaching the conditions of a what action they may take if a child abduction warning notice. notice is ignored. The cross-party parliamentary inquiry Each of those organisations is evidently concerned that I chaired—many members of the Committee, including about the relative ineffectiveness of child abduction my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, participated— warning notices in deterring perpetrators from abducting was told time and again by police that placing the children. It stands to reason that if the notices are to be notices on a statutory basis would better help them to reviewed, the Government should consider extending protect children from exploitation. The existing situation their application to all children under 18. I should also can put vulnerable children at risk, as police need the point out that both Greater Manchester and Cheshire more serious offence of abduction to be committed police have argued that they would find it useful to be before they may intervene. The police have described able to issue notices to protect 16 and 17-year-olds, as how perpetrators have ignored the conditions in a notice, well as younger children. It is true that in some cases but they have been powerless to act because the high involving sexual abuse, police will be able to use sexual requirement of the abduction offence has not been met. risk orders and sexual harm prevention orders, but The inability to act also damages people’s faith in the those will not be applicable in cases that do not centre police and their protection, with potentially serious on sexual abuse. implications for whether young people or their parents I hope that the Minister will give due consideration will seek help from the criminal justice system in future. to my points and, most importantly, the amendment of My parliamentary inquiry recommended that child the Child Abduction Act 1984 accordingly. abduction warning notices therefore be made statutory, so that if someone breaches a condition in the notice 5.15 pm there will be clear consequences and the police may Sarah Champion: I will speak first in support of new take swift action. An additional advantage of such clause 16 and then to my new clause 21. an approach would be much less reliance on the victim 215 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 216 giving evidence, which is particularly important in such While I recognise the arguments made by the right cases. Children might be reluctant to co-operate because hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for consistency of the manipulation and grooming that they have been between the two offences, the new clauses raise contrary subjected to. arguments and difficult issues. It is right that I remind I am grateful to my hon. Friends for their support for the Committee of what we spoke about when debating new clause 21 and to the Minister who, on Second amendment 40. Many young people aged 16 and 17 can Reading, committed to work with me on this and give and do live independently of their parents. In many the proposal a thorough consideration. That followed respects, they are able to make their own decisions earlier commitments from the Government in the House about how they live their lives, including in relation to of Lords to consider what Barnardo’s and I are proposing. sexual relationships. In the other place, there were concerns that statutory In recognition of those complex circumstances, the warning notices would not have sufficient judicial oversight offence in section 2 of the 1984 Act applies only where and would give the police unchecked power to effectively the child is under 16. The 1980 Hague convention on issue restraining orders without applying to the courts. the civil aspects of international child abduction ceases There were also subsequent concerns that introducing to operate when the child reaches the age of 16. The such judicial oversight would complicate and slow down criminal law is therefore compliant and consistent with a process which is currently strengthened by its simplicity that important international criterion. and speed. New clauses 16 and 22 would have significant wider New clause 21 addresses those concerns, following implications. The Government’s concern is that we might further consultation by Barnardo’s with the police. It not get the correct balance between additional protection draws heavily on existing legislation—the Crime and and recognition of relevant rights and responsibilities. Security Act 2010—which created domestic violence For those reasons and with respect, I am not persuaded prevention notices and domestic violence prevention of the case for this particular change. orders. It is therefore based on an established process In new clause 21, the hon. Member for Rotherham and legislative provision. The new clause would mean puts forward a strong case for child abduction warning that courts could oversee the use of statutory child notices to be placed on a statutory footing. I recognise abduction warning notices, while the police would still the value of such notices in protecting children who are be able to issue a notice without delay. Crucially, it at risk of abuse. The key question to ask is whether the would finally give child abduction warning notices the police have the necessary powers to place restrictions strength they need to disrupt the grooming cycle before and prohibitions on people who pose a risk to vulnerable a child becomes the victim of a more serious offence. children. The Government are determined to do all we can to protect the public from sexual offenders. Prevention of sexual exploitation and its devastating impact on children must be a priority and we must give The hon. Lady is absolutely right to refer to the the police the tools they need. I therefore ask the comments made on Second Reading, because we have Solicitor-General and the Committee to look favourably looked at the matter since then, as the result of what she on the new clause. said, very closely indeed. We looked, in particular, at what is already there. We can see that the sorts of powers that she wants are already on the statute book and I have some important news about their The Solicitor-General: May I deal first with the new implementation, which I hope will give her a lot of clauses tabled by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor reassurance. In particular, we are very soon, before the Meirionnydd and the hon. Member for Rotherham? end of the Parliament, going to be implementing the New clauses 16 and 22 seek to raise the age threshold new sexual risk orders that were introduced by the for the child abduction offence in section 2 of the Child Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. It Abduction Act 1984 from 16 to 18 years. That would is a different means, but it will achieve the very same bring it into line with the summary offence in section 49 ends that she has recommended. of the Children Act 1989 of abducting a child in care. Both new clauses try to create consistency by removing The police are going to be able to apply to the courts references to 16 years and replacing them with 18 years. for these orders where an individual poses a risk of sexual harm, either here in the UK or abroad, even if The section 2 child abduction offence is based on they have never been convicted of a criminal offence. taking or detaining a child without the consent of a Were we to put child abduction warning notices on a parent or person who has parental responsibility. The statutory footing, we would run a very real risk of consent of the person taken or detained is therefore not duplicating sexual risk orders. The context here—the relevant. In cases where a person is taken or detained prism through which we are looking at child abduction—is without their consent, an offence of kidnapping or false the sexual motive, which is the one that I know concerns imprisonment might have been committed, irrespective the hon. Lady and all of us. Although the nomenclature of the victim’s age. It is important to remember that in of these orders is clearly different, we are satisfied that the context of this offence. they will deliver the very policy outcome that the hon. Children in care are particularly vulnerable. That is Lady seeks. why the Children Act 1989 makes it an offence to take It may help the Committee if I say a little more about any child who is in care, including a 16 or 17-year-old, how sexual risk orders will operate. A sexual risk order away from the person responsible for them without may be made by the magistrates court for a minimum “lawful authority” or “reasonable excuse”. We come period of two years, on application by the police or the back again to the necessary inconsistency when bearing National Crime Agency. The test for making an order is in mind the context in which a child or young person that the court must be satisfied that the individual has finds themselves. committed an act of a sexual nature as a result of which 217 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 218

[The Solicitor-General] Following the implementation of the new orders we will work with the police to review their effectiveness. it is necessary to make the order to protect the public in We will include the context of how child abduction the UK, or children or vulnerable adults overseas, from warning notices are used in that review. harm caused by the individual. Significantly, breach of the order will be a criminal offence punishable by up to 5.30 pm five years of imprisonment. I appreciate that the hon. Lady might want to reflect on what I have said so as to understand further how Sarah Champion: Will the Minister repeat that? I sexual risk orders can address the gap in the law that she think he said it would apply when the perpetrator had highlighted. I am happy to meet her to go through the committed an act, whereas the abduction warning notice issue in more detail before Report. For now I hope that is when it is believed that someone has the intention of she, the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd carrying out an act. It is a slightly different emphasis. and other hon. Members will be content not to press their measures.

The Solicitor-General: That is a very proper point to Seema Malhotra: I will spare the Committee the make and I will address it immediately. I will give an short speech I had prepared—and it was short—and example that I hope will give the hon. Lady some will simply make the point that I have heard what the reassurance. If there was evidence that the taking of Minister has said and we will look at the matter more preliminary steps of a grooming nature was intended as closely. In suggesting raising the threshold to 18 to a precursor to a sexual act, those preliminary steps equalise protection from abduction for children in care could constitute an “act of a sexual nature” for the and not in care our key concern was that the test should purpose of the legislation. The act of meeting a child be vulnerability. We will look closely at his remarks and could, of itself, be an “act of a sexual nature” when decide whether to come back with a further measure at judged in its full context on the facts of an individual a later stage. case—for example, if there was evidence of grooming-type communication on the internet immediately before or Mr Llwyd: With the Committee’s permission, I seek after the meeting, in light of an individual’s behaviour to withdraw new clause 16. I need to think a bit more at the meeting and the nature of what took place at the about what has been said, as the detail flew over my meeting, and the nature of an individual’s intention head. It must be getting late—well, it is only half-past 5, when meeting the child. but it feels a bit later. I will think further about the issue This is not about fully completed sexual acts, it is and beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. about the sort of gateway, preliminary or preparatory Clause, by leave, withdrawn. conduct that I know the hon. Lady has campaigned so assiduously on. It is just the sort of conduct where a child abduction warning notice might be used. We New Clause 28 believe that these orders will cover those scenarios. The Sexual Offences Act 2003, as amended, also makes OFFENCE OF ENCOURAGEMENT OF FEMALE GENITAL provision for interim sexual risk orders, which can be MUTILATION made when the court considers it necessary to protect “(1) The Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 is amended as follows: the public during any period between the making of an (2) After section 2 (offence of assisting a girl to mutilate her own application for a full order and its determination. Any genitalia) insert— interim order may last for a specified fixed period and “(2A) Offence of encouragement of female genital mutilation— may contain any prohibition which the court considers (a) a person is guilty of an offence of encouragement of necessary for protecting the public in the United Kingdom, female genital mutilation if he makes a statement or children or vulnerable adults abroad, from sexual that is likely to be understood by some or all of the harm. members of the public to whom it is published as a The purpose of interim orders is to ensure that the direct or indirect encouragement or other police are able to use their knowledge and discretion to inducement to them to mutilate the genitalia of a identify and manage risks immediately. This gives the girl; public full protection even prior to the final determination (b) a person commits an offence if— of the issue. The introduction of sexual risk orders (i) he publishes a statement to which this section applies or causes another to publish such a complements the effectiveness of the current system of statement; and child abduction warning notices, which provide for a (ii) at the time he publishes it or causes it to be simple and non-bureaucratic process. The combination published, he— of the non-statutory warning notices and the statutory (a) intends members of the public to be directly or sexual risk orders and interim orders will produce the indirectly encouraged or otherwise induced by optimum result. The police can, as now, continue to the statement to mutilate the genitalia of a issue a child abduction warning notice quickly and then girl; or move to apply for an interim sexual risk order or a full (b) is reckless as to whether members of the public sexual risk order if the particular circumstances demand. will be directly or indirectly encouraged or In other words, we are offering a thorough degree of otherwise induced by the statement to mutilate the genitalia of a girl.””.—(Seema protection that strikes the right balance in securing Malhotra.) protection while providing robust safeguards for those Brought up, and read the First time. who may be subject to an order. Statutory guidance accompanying the implementation of sexual risk orders Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. will also follow, on the time scale I have indicated. The Committee divided: Ayes 8, Noes 11. 219 Public Bill Committee20 JANUARY 2015 Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 220

Division No. 2] Simpson, Mr Keith Wheeler, Heather Stunell, rh Sir Andrew AYES Champion, Sarah McDonald, Andy Question accordingly negatived. Coffey, Ann Malhotra, Seema Dromey, Jack Reed, Mr Steve Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Wilson, Phil —(Damian Hinds.)

NOES 5.34 pm Baker, rh Norman Hinds, Damian Beresford, Sir Paul Latham, Pauline Adjourned till Thursday 22 January at half-past Eleven Bradley, Karen Miller, rh Maria o’clock. Buckland, Mr Robert Pincher, Christopher 221 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Serious Crime Bill [Lords] 222

Written evidence reported to the House SC07 Henry Jackson Society