Tuesday Volume 594 10 March 2015 No. 122

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 10 March 2015

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2015 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 135 10 MARCH 2015 136

Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The House of Commons important point here is the output, not the input. I should point out that the number of staff employed in Tuesday 10 March 2015 enforcement and compliance has gone up over the course of this Parliament.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock 17. [907973]Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): A young man in my constituency had his jobseeker’s PRAYERS allowance taken away because he missed an early morning appointment, despite having notified the jobcentre of the illness that prevented him from attending. He is just R SPEAKER in the Chair] [M one of many vulnerable people affected by the sanctioning regime imposed by this Government. According to the House of Commons Library, the amount lost in tax Oral Answers to Questions evasion and tax avoidance exceeds the entire spend on JSA by £2 billion. Does the contrast between the persecution of the most vulnerable and the Government’s failure on TREASURY tax avoidance not say everything about their priorities? Mr Gauke: Over the course of this Parliament, the The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— number of prosecutions for tax evasion has gone up Uncollected Tax fivefold. The reality is that the Government are taking more measures to deal with tax avoidance and tax 1. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What evasion. We have done that consistently at every Budget. recent estimate Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has Ever since the 2010 spending review, there has been a made of the amount of uncollected tax in the UK. greater focus on HMRC being able to bring in the yield. [907957] The numbers, as my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) pointed out, speak 4. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What for themselves. recent estimate Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has made of the amount of uncollected tax in the UK. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Hundreds of [907960] millions of pounds are lost in revenue, criminal gangs are financed and untold damage is done to the environment The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David in Northern Ireland as a result of fuel laundering. Why Gauke): HMRC published its latest tax gap estimates have the Government resisted putting effective trace on 16 October 2014. In 2012-13, the tax gap was estimated measures into fuel, which would stamp this out? Is the at £34 billion, 6.8% of total tax due. Minister concerned that despite numerous raids nobody is ever caught for fuel laundering in Northern Ireland? Rosie Cooper: I thank the Minister for those figures. Will he confirm that HMRC’s own figures show that Mr Gauke: Our record across the piece shows that we under this Government the amount of uncollected tax take tax evasion and criminal activity in this area very has risen by £3 billion? seriously.This is a complex matter, but the hon. Gentleman Mr Gauke: The number I quoted a moment ago, will know that considerable efforts have been undertaken 6.8%, is a lower percentage of tax due than was achieved to address fuel laundering. This is a matter we take very in any year under the previous Government. seriously. Mrs Glindon: There has been speculation that the Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Chancellor’s Budget next week will deal with tax avoidance The Minister must acknowledge the significant damage and evasion, but there has also been speculation that by that the recent HSBC tax avoidance and evasion scandal 2016 the number of staff working in HMRC will drop has done to the public’s confidence in the Government’s from 50,000 to just over 40,000. How do the Government willingness to pursue tax avoiders and evaders, thereby expect to deal with evasion and avoidance if they are reducing the amount of uncollected tax in the UK. In unwilling to properly resource HMRC? the Chancellor’s absence, will the Minister now answer the question that the Chancellor failed to answer six Mr Gauke: Over the course of this Parliament, HMRC times on the “Today” programme? Did the Chancellor has brought in more yield year after year. If the measure ever discuss tax evasion at HSBC with Lord Green—yes is just on the number of staff, the hon. Lady will be or no? aware that, when HMRC was formed in 2005, it had something like 92,000 members of staff and that by the Mr Gauke: As I have pointed out, the Government’s end of the previous Parliament it had below 70,000. It is efforts and success in dealing with tax avoidance and not about the number of staff. We are seeing a huge tax evasion are a huge step forward from what we improvement in HMRC’s performance. inherited. On the appointment of Lord Green, the proper processes, as put in place by the previous Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Government, were undertaken. The Cabinet Secretary Will the Minister confirm that HMRC’s compliance looked at Lord Green’s tax affairs, and just as the yield target has actually been revised up this year to previous Government appointed him to their business £26 billion, which is £9 billion more than when this advisory council, so he was appointed as a Minister—an Government came to office? appointment that was welcomed by the Labour party. 137 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 138

Shabana Mahmood: Still we have no answer to the defend real-terms cuts to tax credits for these simplest and clearest of questions. If we cannot get a hard-working people, particularly the women, in my straight answer from the Chancellor or his Ministers, constituency? we should at least hear from Lord Green—the man who was in charge of the bank and was then made a Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Gentleman will surely be Conservative Minister—either in front of a parliamentary delighted at the news from the IFS and other forecasters Committee or through a statement in the other place. that real wages are now rising at a higher rate than Why are the Government parties so desperate to silence inflation, and it is thanks to our long-term economic Lord Green? What are they so afraid he will reveal? plan that inflation is so low. We have had council tax cuts and fuel duty freezes, and we have done everything Mr Gauke: We are not afraid of anything. The we can by raising personal tax-free allowances to enable Government have been more successful at prosecuting people to benefit from a recovering economy, but we criminals involved in tax evasions, more successful at can only do it by sticking to a long-term economic plan. closing down tax avoidance loopholes and more successful Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Am I right in at getting money in. That is a record we can be proud of. thinking that universal credit will replace working tax credits and child tax credits, making 3 million households Tax Credits better off by an average of £177 per month and improving work incentives by allowing people to keep more of 2. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What their income as they move into work? proportion of recipients of tax credits are in employment. Andrea Leadsom: Yes, my right hon. Friend is exactly [907958] right. Universal credit is a major reform that will transform the welfare state in Britain for the better. It will replace The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea the current complex system of means-tested working-age Leadsom): In total, 4.5 million households are in receipt benefits, including tax credits, and make 3 million of tax credits, and 71% of them are in employment. The households better off by on average £177 a month. Government believe it is right to provide additional support to those in need through the benefits system, Infrastructure Investment but we have been clear throughout that we want to ensure that people are better off in work than on 3. Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): benefits. What steps he is taking to invest in infrastructure. [907959] Jessica Morden: Will the Minister confirm that the The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Government’s real-terms cuts to tax credits will not This Government have revolutionised the approach to only hit more people in work but hit far more women infrastructure through long-term planning via the national than men? infrastructure plan, which we conceived and published, that sets out an infrastructure pipeline worth more than Andrea Leadsom: I am sure the hon. Lady shares my £460 billion of public and private investment. In the delight at the great news that the gender pay gap is 2013 spending round, I committed over £100 billion to lower than it has ever been, that there are more women support infrastructure investment across the United in work than ever before and that 1.85 million people Kingdom. are in work who were not in work at the time of the last general election. That is cause for celebration. The Jack Lopresti: I am delighted that the Government Government have strived at every point to support have made significant commitments to the south-west women into work, whether through entrepreneurial region, such as the fantastic £50 million-worth of investment allowances, support for women with child care or other for a new junction on the M49 in my constituency. Will measures. the Minister confirm what further investments he is making for improvements to transport across the south-west 19. [907975] John Howell (Henley) (Con): Is my hon. region as a whole? Friend aware of the Institute for Fiscal Studies report on living standards showing that living standards are Danny Alexander: Investment in the transport back to where they were before Labour’s great infrastructure of the south-west has been a much higher recession? Does this not help the very people she has priority for this Government than, I think, for any mentioned? previous Government. We have committed £7.2 billion- worth of investment in the transport infrastructure of the south-west, including £2 billion in roads—for example, Andrea Leadsom: Yes, my hon. Friend is exactly dualling the A303 and the new tunnel at Stonehenge, right. The IFS report also showed that 200,000 fewer sorting out the A30 all the way to Camborne and the people were in relative poverty in 2014-15 compared electrification of the Great Western main line with new with 2009-10, including 100,000 children, and that since inter-city express trains. I have recently asked the south-west 2010 the number of children under 16 in workless peninsula rail task force to bring forward more proposals households had fallen by about 390,000, taking it to the for investment in strategic rail schemes for the region. lowest level since records began. That is very good news. John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Last 25. [907981] Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The average month, a couple of hundred senior business figures wage in my constituency is £450, which is £71 per week gave a very warm welcome to the second stage of the less than the national average. How can the Minister review that Sir John Armitt has done on infrastructure 139 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 140 for the Labour party, including plans for a new independent equipment of the armed forces at a rate less than the national infrastructure commission to identify the country’s NATO-recommended minimum? Will he have a word long-term needs and monitor Governments’ plans to with his leader and with mine to make sure that the meet them. Business backs Labour plans; business necessary commitment is given before the general election? organisations back Labour’s plans; will the right hon. Gentleman back them? Danny Alexander: We have met that commitment in the present Parliament, and we will do so in 2015-16 as Danny Alexander: Of course, the Labour party’s belated well. Spending on defence will, of course. be a matter conversion to long-term planning for infrastructure is for the next spending round. However, I suggest that the welcome, although it was not the practice during its hon. Gentleman should have regard not just to the total 13 years in office. I think that the national infrastructure amount spent, but to the efficiency of the expenditure. plan and the architecture around it provides the right We have made great progress during this Parliament in framework for delivering that long-term planning. I am securing better value, in terms of defence equipment not convinced of the idea that a new quango is the best and output, for the limited money that we have to spend way to solve the problem. as a country.

Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): Last week, Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): The the HS2 Select Committee wrote to the Treasury asking Treasury has had meetings with the European Commission for more flexibility on big infrastructure projects where to discuss the reinstatement of the aggregate credit levy farmers have difficulty finding suitable replacement land scheme for Northern Ireland, which could serve as a within the statutory time limits for capital gains tax further tool of investment in infrastructure. What further relief, leaving the businesses in the position of not discussions have taken place? knowing whether or not a discretionary power could be granted. Can the Chief Secretary give some comfort to Danny Alexander: I know that discussions have been my constituents who are affected by this? ongoing, and that the issue has been the subject of a protracted dispute. I have no further updates, but I will Danny Alexander: I do take seriously my right hon. ensure that my ministerial colleague who is responsible Friend’s point. The Department for Transport is working for the scheme writes to the hon. Lady. on the plans to flesh out how these things will work in respect of HS2. I would add that HMRC can provide NHS Funding Pressures extra flexibility where there are particular impacts on particular farmers or other businesses. I would certainly 5. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): want to maintain an open mind on the points that my What recent representations he has received on fiscal right hon. Friend is raising. steps to address funding pressures in the NHS. [907961]

Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): I could not help Danny Alexander: The Government have protected but notice that when my hon. Friend the Member for the health budget in real terms throughout the current Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) was asking Parliament. Of course a strong national health service the Chief Secretary’s sidekick to answer a question needs a strong economy, and the Government plan to about Lord Green, the Chief Secretary was constantly deliver that strong economy, along with a fairer society. having a laugh at his expense. I am going to give him a The NHS budget has already increased by £12.7 billion chance: will he now answer the question about meeting during this Parliament, and in the autumn statement we Lord Green. Now is the opportunity to make a name announced an additional £2 billion for front-line NHS for himself. Come on. services. That money is intended to meet demand pressures in the next financial year, and also to help to start the Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has made his point, process of transformation that was outlined in the but unfortunately it does not relate to investment in “Five Year Forward View”, which is probably the most infrastructure. important representation that I have received on NHS funding in the last year or so. Mr Skinner: How do you know? Andrew Gwynne: Hospitals have struggled to cope Mr Speaker: I am trying to use such powers of with the pressures during the winter. Labour has made anticipation as I have, but let us hear the Chief Secretary a fully funded commitment to provide the extra doctors, respond. nurses, home care workers and midwives who are needed through a “time to care” fund. Analysis of Conservative Danny Alexander: I do not recall ever having had any party spending plans shows that more than 260,000 conversations about investment in infrastructure with elderly people risk losing their social care packages Lord Green. Matters relating to ministerial appointments during the next Parliament. Is it not time for the are, of course, a matter for the Prime Minister. What Government to commit themselves to taxing hedge matters is making sure that in this country we have a funds and tobacco companies in order to raise the extra zero-tolerance approach to tax evasion and tax avoidance, resources that our NHS so desperately needs? and that where organisations are facilitating or encouraging tax evasion, we put in place the proper penalties. Danny Alexander: Let me gently say to the hon. Gentleman that he ought to be a wee bit cautious about Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does the believing too many of his Front Benchers’ spending Chief Secretary agree that no British Government should plans. They say that they want to deal with the deficit fail to invest in the infrastructure, the personnel and the but have set out no plans to do so, and they have made 141 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 142 multiple spending commitments without any sense of expect, Mr Speaker. I have listened to the hon. Gentleman how those commitments will accord with their fiscal today, as I listened to him on the “Today” programme strategy. yesterday, and there was not a single answer about how The hon. Gentleman is, of course, right to suggest Labour would balance the books, and not a single that going too far and reducing the deficit reduction by answer about how Labour would invest in public services. more than is necessary in the next Parliament would I heard yesterday about Labour’s zero-based review, have a damaging effect on public services. I would say which seems to mean zero savings, zero ideas, zero that his party has got it wrong and the Conservative economic credibility. party has got it wrong, but the Liberal Democrats have got it right. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Health services in Chester and west Cheshire are facing increased pressures 23. [907979] David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): because of thousands of people fleeing from the Welsh Despite the economic chaos that was inherited by the NHS and seeking treatment in England. Will my right coalition Government, spending on the NHS in hon. Friend guarantee to provide more money for hospitals England has been protected and increased. Does that on the English side of the border, to protect them from not compare very favourably with the position in the failure of the Labour party in Wales? Wales, where a Labour Government have slashed NHS spending by 8%? Should we not judge these people by Danny Alexander: Clearly, there are issues in the their deeds rather than their words? NHS in Wales, but I would caution my hon. Friend about the tone of his question, because health workers Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend has made a very in England and in Wales are working as hard as they fair point. Comparing the NHS performance of different can to provide the best treatment they can for people on Administrations is an important activity, in which I am either side of the border. Of course there are failures in sure he will engage very fruitfully over the next few terms of funding in Wales and issues that need to be weeks. Let me add that if we are to judge a Labour dealt with, but everyone on this side of the House Government by their actions, we should look at the should unite in respect and admiration for our nurses mess that the Labour party made of the economy when and doctors and the work they do to keep us healthy in it was last in power. If we found ourselves with problems this country. of that kind again, money for our NHS would be one of the resources that would suffer. Wine Duty Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Denton 6. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), the pressures on the (Con): If he will make a comparative assessment of the NHS are already putting care services in crisis. Why has level of duty on wine paid in the UK and in other EU the Chief Secretary colluded in Tory plans to shrink member states. [907962] public investment and take an additional £70 billion from public services in the next Parliament, thus posing The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David an even bigger risk to health and social care? He has Gauke): Industry estimates show that there are 135 wineries dodged the question in the past; will he give us a in England and Wales, producing 4.5 million bottles of straight answer now? Why did he sign off those Tory wine. The UK’s growing and award-winning wine industry plans in the autumn statement? benefited from the Government ending the wine duty escalator at Budget 2014. Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman would do better to begin any question about the NHS with an Tim Loughton: There will be much responsible dancing acknowledgement of his own party’s failures I have in the streets if the Chancellor completes a hat-trick of made it clear that the figures published by the Office for beer duty cuts in his Budget and there will be much Budget Responsibility represent a neutral assumption. I responsible celebration if he cuts the duty on spirits. think the hon. Gentleman’s party would borrow too But there will be much wailing and irrepressible much and the Conservatives would cut too much, and disappointment if he does not reduce the duty on wine, that what we need is a balanced approach in the middle. which has gone up by 54% since 2008 alone and accounts for 67% of all the duty on all wine in the whole of the Chris Leslie: I do not know whether the Chief Secretary EU. Will he complete a fantastic treble-whammy by knows what he is doing. The letter from the OBR’s dropping the duty on wine, too, which it has been Robert Chote explicitly says—I have it in front of estimated would generate some £3 billion in extra revenue— me—that the forecast for that £23 billion of surplus in and 20,000 jobs! 2019-20 was “signed off by the ‘quad’”, Mr Gauke: If it is not already too late to make this of which I think the Chief Secretary is a member. Is suggestion, I think my hon. Friend deserves a good Robert Chote wrong, or did the Chief Secretary not bottle at lunchtime after that effort. He has put his case realise what he was signing up to? Will he at least assure on the record, but of course all announcements are for us that, if that was a mistake or he did not spot it in the the Chancellor on Budget day. past, he will be opposing a repeat of those Tory plans in next week’s Budget Red Book? Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): If this Government do indeed have a long-term economic Danny Alexander: Matters relating to the Budget will plan, which most of my constituents do not believe, will be revealed by the Chancellor in his Budget statement the Financial Secretary stop worrying about the older next Wednesday and not before, as I am sure you would generation of wine drinkers and start concentrating his 143 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 144 mind on the young people of this country who are when 65% of people on jobseeker’s allowance in Swansea underprivileged and overtaxed and have more problems have been sanctioned and are living on a pittance? It is a in getting a good job? It is about time that the 18 to disgrace. 35-year-olds, rather than the older wine drinkers of this country, were taken into account by this Chancellor. Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman clearly was not listening to my first answer, because we have put in Mr Gauke: First, may I reassure the hon. Gentleman place something unprecedented; working with our that there is a long-term economic plan, and thank him colleagues in other countries, the common reporting for using the phrase? Credible public finances will benefit standard will mean that more than 90 countries will be the younger generation, who will not face many years of automatically exchanging information on offshore accounts, paying off higher debt levels. so that HMRC has the information it needs to find and pursue offshore tax evaders successfully. We need to Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): While make further progress on how we deal with organisations the Financial Secretary is looking carefully at the duty that encourage, promote or facilitate tax evasion. I have on English wine, will he redouble his efforts to support said I want to see further work done on that, and I am artisan and small-scale cider makers, who risk being put sure we will be hearing more about it soon. out of business as a consequence of a disastrous recent EU decision? Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): In 2006-07, a hedge fund Mr Gauke: I appreciate the point made by my hon. manager avoided millions in tax through a film scheme Friend. The Government’s support for small cider makers later judged unlawful. HSBC received £438,000 for acting across the piece has helped to create a diverse and as an intermediary, so does the Chief Secretary agree vibrant market in this area, and we will continue to that there should have been a penalty on HSBC for its study the Commission’s arguments carefully because we role in this scam? want to support this industry. Danny Alexander: I do not know about the details of Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion Schemes the specific instance to which my hon. Friend refers, but 8. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What plans he has I do think that in cases where an organisation is facilitating to introduce penalties for financial advisers who promote or promoting tax evasion and a penalty is then paid and aggressive tax avoidance and tax evasion schemes. tax is paid, as it should have been in the first place, the [907964] organisation facilitating the tax evasion should be liable for exactly the same amount of money, to be paid to the The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Exchequer. In that way, there would be a strong financial This Government have been relentless in cracking down as well as legal incentive for people not to get involved on tax avoidance and evasion. We have introduced a in this practice in the first place. tougher monitoring regime and penalties for high-risk promoters of tax avoidance schemes, and the unprecedented Local Authority Borrowing (Home Building) common reporting standard will mean that by 2018 more than 90 countries will be exchanging information 9. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): What on offshore accounts automatically, helping Her Majesty’s recent representations he has received on caps on local Revenue and Customs to find and pursue offshore authority borrowing for building homes. [907965] evaders successfully. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Charlie Elphicke: I thank the Chief Secretary for that I have received many representations on local authority answer. Does he agree that more has been done on tax borrowing caps, but I would refer the House to the avoidance in the past five years than was done in the recent excellent review of the local authority role in previous 13, so craven were the previous Government housing supply carried out by Natalie Elphicke and before big business and big tax avoidance? Will he Councillor Keith House. They made many suggestions welcome the Financial Secretary’s announcement yesterday as to how the local authority role in house building of further action on tax avoidance-promoting schemes? could be improved, but one of their conclusions was Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely that the problem was not a lack of money but the way in right in both things that he says. The Financial Secretary’s which resources are deployed and organised in the local announcement was very important further progress, government sector. but if we look back over the past five years, we see that the relentlessness of our pursuit of measures to crack Sarah Newton: I very much welcome the answer to down on avoidance, be it the general anti-abuse rule in my question and the other comprehensive measures the the tax system, the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes Government have taken to enable people to buy their regime, the monitoring regime that we are putting in own homes, such as First Buy. Will the Chief Secretary place or the measures to increase prosecutions for tax explain a little more about some of those findings and evasion, has made it clear that there is absolutely no what more we can do to ensure that hard-working tolerance for aggressive tax avoidance and tax evasion people who need social housing can get it? in this country. Danny Alexander: The hon. Lady raises an important Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The question. In this Parliament we are building more affordable Chief Secretary will know that 10% of UK wealth is homes than has been the case at any point in the past held in offshore bank accounts, which is a much higher 20 years, and in the next Parliament we will be building proportion than in the United States, so why is he not even more. However, I do not think any of us should be focusing on that tax avoidance and evasion, at a time complacent; we need to raise substantially the level of 145 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 146 house building in this country. That is why I welcome does not devolve control of the tax base or the personal the recommendation of Keith House and Natalie Elphicke allowance. One of the bits of work that remains to be on a housing finance institute. It is also why I set out done is to ensure that we have a fiscal framework in around the autumn statement last year moves to place around that which means that the fact of devolution Government taking a direct commissioning role to ensure does not offer a financial advantage in and of itself that we meet a 300,000 homes a year target. That will be either to Scotland or to the rest of the United Kingdom. piloted at the Northstowe development, which I encourage I have had constructive discussions with John Swinney the hon. Lady to find out more about. on that point and on many others. It is, of course, a matter for the Scottish Government to make sure that Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I declare they have competent administrative machinery in place, an indirect interest, which is on record. Local authorities which they will need next month when the process of are at the sharp end of this Government’s failure to the first wave of income tax devolution starts. deliver the housing that the country needs, particularly affordable rented housing. Labour Plymouth is proactively Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Is my right doing what the Minister has just said—bringing forward hon. Friend, like me, waiting with bated breath for the land and building 1,000 homes. It has a view on the cap latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland and about meeting the need. Greater concerns, however, figures to be published? Does he expect that they will surround the announcement of the starter home scheme, bolster or demolish the Scottish National party’s case which will lead to a massive loss of affordable home for full fiscal autonomy? building— developers get out of any requirement to do it and the local authority has no say. Can the Chief Danny Alexander: Bated breath might be overstating Secretary please tell the House what the impact assessment it, but I expect the new GERS figures very soon. In of that policy was and the impact on affordable rented recent days we have seen evidence of the damage that homes? the Scottish National party’s ideas would do to the UK economy—higher debt for the whole of the UK at the Danny Alexander: The idea behind the starter homes end of this Parliament than at the beginning of it, and scheme is precisely to offer homes at a discount to an extra £5 billion a year being spent on interest payments. young people who want to get on the housing ladder. I Having been defeated on its proposals for independence, would have thought that was an objective that everyone which would have undermined and damaged the Scottish in the House would welcome. If the hon. Lady wants to economy, the SNP seems inclined to offer the same look at social rented housing, in this Parliament—and damage to the UK economy as a whole. continuing in the next Parliament—we have the highest annual rate of social house building than under the Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/ previous Government or for the past 20 years. During Co-op): Under the Scotland Act 2012, from April 2016 Labour’s 13 years in office, the number of social homes Scotland will indeed have significant new tax-raising fell by 421,000; we have increased it by over 300,000. powers. HMRC’s own risk register shows that the risk that Scottish taxpayers will not be identified by April Tax Devolution 2016 has risen from amber to red, so can the Chief Secretary tell the House why, despite these being the 10. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) biggest changes to Scottish tax ever, only 11 full-time (Lab): What recent discussions he has with the Finance equivalent HMRC staff are working on them and, Secretary of the Scottish Government on devolution of according to Audit Scotland, they rely on a single taxes. [907966] official in the Scottish Government?

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Danny Alexander: I am confident that the resource I have had frequent and largely constructive discussions being applied at the HMRC end of the spectrum is with the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Finance, sufficient to ensure that we can deliver the devolution Employment and Sustainable Growth, including on the that is planned. That process is going on at present. matter of devolution of taxes, as have my ministerial Stamp duty devolution starts in April this year and colleagues. The Scottish Minister recently met the income tax devolution the following April. As to whether Chancellor of the Exchequer. We have made huge progress or not the Scottish Government are applying sufficient in the area of tax devolution. resource, effort or people to make sure that the tax system will be competently administered, that is a question Michael Connarty: From reading the text of the for them to answer. I recently signed off the orders to Smith agreement, it seems to me that we have handed devolve stamp duty, and they will now need to make over income tax in particular to the Scottish Government, sure that that is done properly. whereby allowances and bands can be varied. In fact, we have created the possibility of an independent tax Cathy Jamieson: I thank the Chief Secretary for that system, apart from hanging on to the 20p tax as a kind response, although it does not entirely fill me with of fulcrum around which it must work. Has the Treasury reassurance. Is it not the case that this whole process looked at the impact that there would be on the UK if risks descending into absolute chaos, and is it not time there were an entirely independent tax system in the that both the UK and the Scottish Governments got a north of the United Kingdom? grip? How many HMRC and Treasury officials have been seconded to the Scottish Government to help clear Danny Alexander: Yes, we have. The hon. Gentleman up the mess? If people have not been seconded, will is right. The Smith commission—rightly, I believe—devolves he now have urgent discussions to see whether that power over rates and bands in the income tax system. It would help? 147 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 148

Danny Alexander: I am afraid that it is a feature of Does she further agree that the real difference between devolution, which the hon. Lady and I both support, the Government and the Labour party’s approach is that devolved Administrations have to take responsibility that while we have been cutting taxes on businesses, it for matters that are in their purview. Frankly speaking, wants to put them up? it is not for the Treasury to send officials to bail out Revenue Scotland. If it approaches us and says that it Andrea Leadsom: Yes, my hon. Friend is exactly does not have enough people, it cannot do it and it is right. There is the risk under Labour of a return to an not ready, that is fine. But having discussed the matter anti-business system that has already been recognised with John Swinney and received assurances that he by people who are themselves trying to run businesses believes that it is in a good position to carry on taking in the UK that are contributing to our economy. She on those functions and to do so properly, that is sufficient has been assiduous in her constituency in supporting for me to sign the orders to hand over the powers. business. She has more than 8,000 new start-ups, and I Fiscal Support for Businesses was delighted to visit Clare and to meet the Ealing Mums in Business, who are doing everything that they 11. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): can to build successful businesses from small beginnings, What fiscal steps he has taken to support businesses. to talk to them about access to finance. [907967] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): One of The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea the steps designed to assist businesses in Northern Leadsom): The Government champion business. We Ireland is the devolution of corporation tax. In light of have cut the main rate of corporation tax to 21%, the the reneging of Sinn Fein on the introduction of welfare lowest in the G7, we have allocated more than £460 billion reform, what implications does the Minister see in the for infrastructure projects, and we have committed to devolution of corporation tax in Northern Ireland? unlock up to £10 billion of business finance through the British Business Bank by 2017-18. Andrea Leadsom: As I think the hon. Gentleman will Mary Macleod: Businesses in Chiswick, Brentford, know, we will agree to devolution for Northern Ireland Isleworth, Osterley and Hounslow have been hugely if it is sustainable, and if it is felt by all sides to be a helped by the Government through lower business rates, sustainable proposition. reduced tax, better infrastructure and two new free schools, which were announced yesterday, to help build Youth Employment the skills for the future. Does my hon. Friend agree that only a Conservative Government with a long-term economic 12. Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) plan can help make Britain the most attractive place in (Con): What assessment he has made of recent trends the world to start and grow a business? in the level of youth employment. [907968] Andrea Leadsom: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. She is right that we want Britain to be the best The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea place to start and grow a business. I am delighted for Leadsom): This Government have taken decisive action her that she has 9,600 new start-ups in her constituency, to boost youth employment. We have been a Government which she has fought for diligently throughout this who are very much on the side of young people, and the Parliament, and that, as a result of this success, results are clear: youth employment is increasing, up by unemployment is down 38% in her constituency since 110,000 over the past year, and the number of young 2010. I was particularly delighted to pay a visit with her people claiming jobseeker’s allowance is at its lowest to one of them, My Plumber Ltd, and to meet the level since the 1970s. wonderful Ollie, who was the apprentice there in charge. Mr Stuart: Youth unemployment in my constituency Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): One fiscal measure is down by 53% since 2010. In the city of Hull, it is that affects business a great deal is the rate of VAT, and down by 54%. Does my hon. Friend recognise the every Conservative Government put up VAT. In 1979, opportunity that has been created by the growth in they put it up from 8% to 15%; in 1991, up to 17.5%; in apprenticeships under this Government? Does she agree 1994, on fuel and power; and in 2010, VAT was raised with the Education Committee that it would be “a again to 20%. So we know what they will do, but let us mistake” for level 2 apprenticeships to be abolished for give them one more chance. Will the hon. Lady rule out young people, as the Labour party proposes? Does she putting up VAT if in power after May? agree, on this occasion, with the TUC, which says it would be “a grave injustice”, or with the Association of Andrea Leadsom: It is extraordinary. I wonder if the Employment and Learning Providers, which says that, hon. Gentleman would like to admit that every Labour on apprenticeships, Labour has “got it all wrong”? Government when they leave office leave unemployment higher than when they came in. That is the truth of the matter. The Government are sorting out the mess left by Andrea Leadsom: My hon. Friend is right. Under the Labour Government, which was the worst financial this Government we have seen over 2 million new crisis in British peacetime. apprenticeships, and level 2 apprenticeships are absolutely vital in giving young people a chance. Young people 18. [907974]Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) have shared in the success of our long-term economic (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that, thanks to our plan, with the UK now having the fourth highest youth long-term economic plan, the Government have employment rate in the EU and the second highest in supported businesses through cutting businesses taxes? the G7. Very importantly, young people’s wages are also 149 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 150 on the rise, with the latest data showing that the earnings investment allowance and other changes, although I of 18 to 21-year-olds who work full time have increased recognise that there are very serious ongoing problems by 6% over the past three years. at the moment.

Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): Sir Robert Smith: I thank the Chief Secretary to the Yesterday I had an exchange with the Minister for Treasury for recognising the problems in the North sea. Employment in which I made it abundantly clear that Does he also recognise that the job losses that have been youth unemployment in my constituency continues to announced predate the fall in the oil price, and that it is rise. She has said that the recent rise in youth unemployment crucial that in the Budget we see long-term structural is just “a tiny blip”. Does this Minister agree with that? change for the maturity of the province?

Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Gentleman should surely Danny Alexander: I wholeheartedly agree with my be delighted that since 2010 youth unemployment in his hon. Friend. I have had a number of meetings with Oil constituency is down by 47%, so I cannot agree with & Gas UK and representatives of the oil industry. him, and that since 2010 unemployment is down by Having set out in December the fact that the tax regime 34%. In the past 12 months, long-term unemployment for the North sea is going to be on a declining path, is down by 38%. Surely he should be celebrating those recognising precisely the issues that he mentions, we numbers. have set a clear direction of travel, and the Chancellor will set out our decisions in the Budget next Wednesday. Marriage Tax Allowances Let me reassure my hon. Friend that this Government take incredibly seriously the need to make sure that we 13. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What have a fiscal regime that supports maximum economic his policy is on the future of tax allowances related to recovery of the resources of North sea oil and gas. marriage. [907969] Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Chief Secretary The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David knows that the fundamental issue is the cost of doing Gauke): The Government have introduced the marriage business in the North sea basin. The up to 81% marginal allowance for married couples and civil partners, which tax rate on production is something that the Government takes effect from 6 April 2015. The transferable amount could do something about. Given that this Chief Secretary has been fixed at 10% and will rise in proportion to the boasted that putting up the supplementary charge was personal allowance. his decision, will he now apologise for that and make sure that the charge begins to be reduced in the Budget Sir Edward Leigh: More than 4 million people could next week? benefit from the marriage allowance, for which they have been able to register since 20 February. Does my Danny Alexander: In fact, we made sure that the hon. Friend agree that this is about much more than supplementary charge began to be reduced in the autumn just pounds or pence—it is about valuing commitment statement in December, so the hon. Gentleman should and marriage as a bedrock of society? catch up on his facts. The fact remains that the measures we are taking to support the industry—through the Mr Gauke: As the Prime Minister made very clear in Wood review, the establishment of the Oil and Gas the 2010 general election, it is right that we recognise Authority, and decommissioning deeds and field allowances marriage in the tax system, and that is precisely what we —have already created an environment that has seen have done. As my hon. Friend rightly points out, it is very substantial investment in the North sea in the past now possible for people to register to be able to benefit few years. The point that my hon. Friend the Member from the transferable tax allowance. for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) made is right. Making sure that we have a Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Does the climate for long-term investment is precisely what we Minister consider it either fair or socially useful that are trying to do, and the hon. Gentleman will have to money is being spent in this way when only one in four wait for the Budget for our decisions. of the couples who benefit are raising children? Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): What are Mr Gauke: This is about recognising marriage within the Government doing to encourage the offshore sector the tax system, but it should also be noted that it will to co-operate and to have common standards as a better benefit many low-income households, including 1 million way of reducing costs in the supply chain than laying households where tax credits are claimed. off the very people we will need when, I hope, things in the North sea begin to pick up again? North Sea Oil and Gas Danny Alexander: The hon. Lady makes an important 14. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and point about co-operation in the industry. It is precisely Kincardine) (LD): What steps he is taking to support such co-operation that has led the Wood review to jobs in the north-east of Scotland by maximising the recommend and the Government to create the Oil and economic recovery of North sea oil and gas. [R] Gas Authority. We find that particularly in respect of [907970] the sensible and low-cost use of infrastructure in the North sea, where greater co-operation between fields The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): and so on will help to reduce costs. That is one of the The Government have made significant progress on early challenges that Andy Samuel is getting to grips supporting the North sea oil and gas sector, including with at the Oil and Gas Authority, and I think he has the announcements I made in December about an the support of the whole House in doing so. 151 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 152

Topical Questions the objective that she describes and which I share. If she has further ideas on how we can pursue that, I would gladly hear them. T1. [907982] Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. T4. [907986] Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): The Chancellor recently highlighted the major part that The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): my Cleethorpes constituency and the Humber estuary Mr Speaker, I should say that the Chancellor of the will play in the growing northern economy. However, Exchequer is at ECOFIN, making sure that Britain’s much depends on continued investment in transport voice is heard in the European Union, and the Exchequer infrastructure. Will the Minister assure me and my Secretary is unwell. I am sure that the whole House constituents that that will continue as a high priority? wishes her a speedy recovery. The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the Danny Alexander: I certainly can. In the final Treasury stability and prosperity of the economy. questions of this Parliament it is worth reflecting on the fact that, despite the tough economic decisions we have Ian Lavery: Will the Chief Secretary confirm that the had to make, this country is making the largest investment Treasury has had discussions with the Department for in our rail network since Victorian times and the largest Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department of investment in our road network since the 1970s, and we Energy and Climate Change with regard to UK Coal’s have a programme to roll out superfast broadband application for state aid for the British coal industry? across the entire country. Those things will leave our What stage are the discussions actually at? economy with a stronger long-term growth potential, as well as having given us the best growth rates in the Danny Alexander: It would be wrong for me to go European Union at the moment. into the ongoing discussions between BIS and other Departments and the industry. However, I can certainly T5. [907988] Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): say that I am aware of the issues that the industry is Is it not the case that those earning more than experiencing, and a discussion on that subject is going £1 million a year have benefited from an average tax cut on with the Government. of up to £100,000 a year in this Parliament? Does that not illustrate that, as ever under the Tories, the mega-rich get richer and the poor get poorer—and that T2. [907983] Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): Under this time they have been aided and abetted by the the previous Labour Government, thousands of pubs Liberal Democrats? closed and the brewing industry was taxed to the point of extinction. The Campaign for Real Ale now says that the Chancellor has saved 1,050 pubs, sold 75 million The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David extra pints and has been the saviour of Britain’s brewing Gauke): It is this Government who have dealt with industry. Does the Chief Secretary agree that this disguised remuneration by which loans were never repaid, Government have been positive for beer and pubs, and benefiting the highest earners. It is this Government will he urge the Chancellor to keep on supporting our who have increased the rates of stamp duty land tax on breweries? high-end properties and ensured that they are properly enforced. It is under this Government that capital gains tax has gone up so that cleaners do not pay a higher rate Danny Alexander: This Government have undoubtedly of tax than hedge fund managers. It is this Government been positive for beer and pubs. Many hon. Members, who have ensured that those with the broadest shoulders including my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North bear the greatest burden, as the Institute for Fiscal West (Greg Mulholland), have campaigned on this issue. Studies confirmed last week. It is of course for the Chancellor to announce the Government’s decisions in this respect—I am sure that T6. [907989] Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) he has not pulled all those pints himself—but it is (Con): Is my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary certainly the case that the beer and pub industry is aware that in my rural constituency, businesses regard stronger in this country, as part of a stronger economy, the words “long-term economic plan” with the same because of the decisions that this coalition Government degree of comfort and familiarity as evensong in an have so far made. Anglican church? Will she be good enough to give an assurance that, following the election, those words and T3. [907984] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): the benefits that they bring will continue, not least Do the Government expect operating oil companies in through the expansion of broadband which is so receipt of tax concessions to develop contract strategies important for rural business? to enable UK fabricating yards to participate in large contracts with the potential to support thousands of The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea jobs across the whole country? Leadsom): It sounds as though evensong in my right hon. Friend’s constituency is a fabulous occurrence, and Danny Alexander: If the hon. Lady has specific issues hopefully not just on a Sunday. He is right to point out in mind, I would gladly engage in further discussion that this Government have sought to ensure that the with her, but the steps this Government have taken— benefits of the economic plan are felt right across the including the establishment of enterprise zones in many country and that the growth is balanced, with all three areas where there are fabrication yards, and measures major sectors—services, construction and manufacturing such as electricity market reform to get offshore wind —growing by 2.5% or more for the first time since and other such production going in the UK—all support records began in 1990. 153 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 154

Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): We all want to see an degree of connectivity for one of the fastest growing end to big companies wriggling out of tax by offshoring airports in the country, which has huge potential for profits, but what assessment has the Minister made of growth, could also take off the roads the traffic caused the impact on kitchen table digital industries, such as by people travelling to other airports in the country. We the sale of knitting patterns, of the way in which shall be considering the matter carefully. HMRC has implemented the new EU rules on VAT being collected in the country of sale, and what can he Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The Minister do about it? will have noticed the substantial depreciation of the euro in recent times, which is bound to cause damage to Mr Gauke: Those are EU rules. It was the previous the British economy. When will the Government take Government who signed up to the principle of changing the exchange rate seriously and seek to secure an appropriate the way in which the VAT system worked, and they were exchange rate for sterling? right to do so. This Government have taken two measures to try to mitigate the impact on some smaller businesses. Danny Alexander: We take seriously the need for this None the less, without the support of other member country to have a set of policies that ensure the long-term states, we are still faced with a change in the rules. health and growth of the UK economy, and the appropriate mix of fiscal policy, monetary policy and long-term T7. [907991] Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): investment. That is why we have the fastest growth in Under this Government, food and drink manufacturing the United Kingdom of any advanced economy, and is a great British success story. However, our dairy why there are now more than 2 million more people in farmers are being badly affected by volatile global markets. work in the private sector than there were in 2010. That Will the Financial Secretary look favourably on proposals is a record I am proud of, and the hon. Gentleman to implement tax averaging reforms, such as those in should congratulate the Government on it. Ireland, to help these essential producers who contribute so much to our rural economies? John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): When considering the allocation of LIBOR fines, will Treasury Ministers consider Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her carefully the submission of Alabaré Christian Care in question; I shall take it as a Budget representation. I am my constituency? It is seeking to construct a new veterans sure she will understand that I cannot say any more village in Wilton that will be transformational for veterans about it at this point, other than to thank her. She has across Wiltshire. been vigorous in putting forward that case. Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): For that question. As he will know, the LIBOR fines imposed hard-pressed taxpayers, the real test of whether the on banks for the appalling rigging of LIBOR are being Government are committed to cracking down on tax used for mainly military charities, and a few other ideas evasion and avoidance will be whether this month’s have been put forward. I shall bear his remarks in mind Finance Bill contains legal penalties for breach of the and mention them to the Chancellor. general anti-abuse rule. Will the Financial Secretary tell us whether those will feature in the Finance Bill—yes John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Further to or no? Question 8, what measures is the Chief Secretary taking to tackle the activities of payroll and umbrella companies Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman will have to that promote bogus self-employment which in turn wait for the Finance Bill to be published and to hear the fuels widespread tax evasion? Budget statement next week. He should reflect on his party’s record in office on these matters. Frankly, when Danny Alexander: We have already announced measures the coalition Government came to office, we inherited a to deal with intermediaries, both offshore and onshore. tax system like a Swiss cheese: it was so full of holes that As the hon. Gentleman will know, a consultation on the tax was leaking all over the place. We have plugged a lot issue is taking place at the moment, and it is important of those holes and there is more work to be done, but I to ensure that companies cannot put in place artificial do not think that he should give us any lectures. arrangements that are designed to reduce their tax bill and often have the consequence of removing important Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I am sure employment rights from workers. We continue to take my right hon. Friend will welcome the report by the that matter incredibly seriously. Electrification Task Force, which is chaired by the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Does the Chief Secretary Jones), and praise its work. The report said that in tier 1 agree that one key aspect of the long-term economic the Harrogate-Leeds-York line should be prioritised, plan is investment in skills, and will he reassure the but does the Minister agree that we must also put in the House that the Government will carry on doing that? 1.1 mile of track to connect Yorkshire’s Leeds Bradford airport? Danny Alexander: Yes I can. As this is national apprenticeship week it is worth reflecting on the fact Danny Alexander: I congratulate the hon. Member that in this Parliament we have created more than for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) and 2 million more apprenticeships. That is a great achievement my hon. Friend on the their work, and I met them of this Government and has helped to ensure that recently to discuss it. There is a strong case for investment young people have the skills they need to succeed in in the Harrogate-Leeds-York line and in the rail link to today’s economy. From my perspective that will continue the airport that my hon. Friend describes. Ensuring that to be a priority in the next Parliament. 155 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 156

Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): To mine pits in Britain? Is he aware that in February 2014 follow up the question from my hon. Friend the Member the Government took £700 million out of the mineworkers’ for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer), it appeared pension fund for themselves? That kind of money in from recent written answers that the Government are state aid could save those three pits so that they could leaving open loopholes that see workers lose hundreds exhaust their reserves. Now come on—tell us what’s of pounds a month from rip-off umbrella companies. happening! Why is that? Danny Alexander: I am not going to change the Danny Alexander: As I said, we are consulting on that answer I gave to the earlier question. I appreciate the matter and have already taken considerable action to sensitivity of these matters, and I would say that this deal with intermediaries. I am sure that more will be Government have taken steps, wherever we can, to said about the issue in due course. support that particular industry. I am not sure that it would be appropriate for me to comment further. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Youth unemployment in my constituency has halved under Mr Speaker: Last but not least, Sir Oliver Heald. this Government, and the Chief Secretary met some of the young people in new jobs at Anthony Best Dynamics Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): in Bradford on Avon last year. Will he or the Chancellor The Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be aware accept an invitation to accompany me to one of the that Hertfordshire is a prosperous and successful county. advanced manufacturing businesses in Chippenham which, However, it had reached the point at which growth was with the support of the relevant Government programmes, being compromised because the A1M was not being can extend many more opportunities by creating jobs in widened between Stevenage and Welwyn. That work 21st-century products in Chippenham? has now been announced but, for the future, are the Government satisfied that they are planning such Danny Alexander: I gladly accept the invitation, although infrastructure projects far enough ahead to enable us to time is limited. As my hon. Friend said, through visiting maintain the kind of strong economic growth that we Anthony Best Dynamics I have seen precisely the benefits have at the moment as a result of the long-term economic that apprenticeships can provide for young people wanting plan? to get highly skilled jobs in the technology companies that are creating very high value added for the UK Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. and learned economy. The work that he has done in his constituency Friend and fellow Hertfordshire Member of Parliament. to promote businesses taking on apprentices is an example He is absolutely right to highlight that issue. As my to the entire House. right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said earlier, we have in place a pipeline of road building Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Why was the and train improvements, the like of which we have not Chief Secretary to the Treasury so discreet about the seen for many years. All of that will benefit Hertfordshire application for state aid for the three remaining deep in particular and the United Kingdom as a whole. 157 10 MARCH 2015 Troubled Families Programme 158

Troubled Families Programme A typical family in the programme has nine different problems to contend with. A child’s bad behaviour and truancy leads to exclusion from school and a life of 12.36 pm petty crime. The school tries to help, but its efforts are The Secretary of State for Communities and Local undone by a mum who simply cannot get out of bed in Government (Mr Eric Pickles): With permission, the morning to ensure that her son goes to school. She Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement about this suffers from stress and anxiety and drinks heavily. Why? Government’s troubled families programme. In 2011, She is in arrears on her bills and is regularly beaten up the Prime Minister set a bold ambition for this Government by the boy’s dad. The result is that the child’s poor that by the end of this Parliament we would turn prospects become entrenched and the cycle of the family’s around the lives of 120,000 of the country’s most troubled problems continues. families. Turning their lives around meant: drastically The key worker’s job is to break the cycle and they reducing the antisocial behaviour and crime for which will prioritise what needs to change first. In this case, they were responsible; ensuring that truanting children they will get the police and others to stop the violence were back attending school; and getting parents into and help the mum to budget better and start on a path jobs. Today, with great pride, I can announce to the to employment. For a while, the key worker will arrive House that 90% of the families we promised to help at 7 am to ensure that she is up, making some breakfast have achieved those outcomes. More than 105,000 families for her son and packing him off to school. As her have had their lives turned around, and the programme mental health improves and improvements grow, the still has three months left to run. key worker can step back, mentor and gradually let go. I want to extend my gratitude to the army of front-line The figures we are publishing today prove beyond workers who have worked tirelessly with those families doubt that the approach is working for families. It also to bring stability back to their lives. I also want to offer helps the communities where they live and of course my congratulations to the families who have grasped delivers substantial savings for the taxpayer. The key the opportunity that this programme has offered to worker has replaced the expensive swarm of services them to end a dysfunctional and negative way of life buzzing around the family that deal with individual and offer their children a better future. I also want to symptoms rather than addressing the root causes. put on record the fact that the programme exemplifies how central Government, local government and their Today, my Department is releasing new information partner public services can successfully work together from local authorities that clearly demonstrates the with a sense of common endeavour and shared objectives. savings generated by the programme. This year, Manchester All 152 upper-tier local councils across England, irrespective estimates that for every £1 invested in family intervention, of political control, have worked closely with my local public services receive an estimated £2.20 in savings. Department, and it is only by working together that we For Redcar and Cleveland, the figure was £1.94. For have delivered this challenging programme at great pace. every four families helped under the programme, the In 2011, I was deeply honoured when the Prime equivalent of a police officer’s starting salary could be Minister asked me to lead this programme, but I was saved. In the London borough of Wandsworth during also acutely aware that its bold ambitions had eluded the first year of the programme, the total savings from the efforts of previous Governments. Looking back, reducing demand on the criminal justice system were we can see how the success of the programme has come nearly £1.2 million. The 70% reduction in domestic from its simplicity, and from the clear aims and violence in the families being helped saved the borough straightforward methods that have captured the hearts £70,000. Salford has identified benefits to health services and minds of public servants at all levels. of £1,700 on average per family. Those savings follow a nearly 60% reduction in alcohol abuse and a 50% reduction I am sure that many Members of the House will in drug misuse in the 12 months following family know the frustration that comes from seeing how our intervention. If those savings were representative of all services and systems have failed to deal with the root the 105,000 families who have been turned around by causes of problems and only treated, or reacted to, the the programme so far, a total of £1.2 billion would be symptoms. How many of us know families in our generated in gross fiscal benefits. constituencies who have been failed by services but have at the same time placed a huge and disproportionate Those gains for the public purse are reason enough burden on those services through successive generations? for celebration, but what makes me most proud of the Youngmen follow in their fathers’ footsteps into trouble; programme is its impact on people’s lives, especially in young women fall victim to abusive relationships; and getting family members into work. That is no easy task families push through the revolving doors of hard-pressed when we consider that they were previously a million services with recurring problems of addiction, violence miles from being able to hold down any kind of job. and mental and physical ill-health. Figures released today show that more than 10,000 adults from troubled families have moved into sustained work. I believed that there was a better way for those I want to take this opportunity to express my gratitude hard-pressed services to operate and through the troubled to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work families programme we have found it. Families in the and Pensions, who placed 150 of his jobcentre advisers programme have signed up to a plan that gets to the in local troubled families teams. They have worked root cause of their problems and makes a real difference wonders in some really challenging cases. to their lives. It involves tough love and practical help from people who take a no-nonsense, persistent approach, This approach works for taxpayers and the families who will not go away and will not give up, and who will involved in the programme, and this Government will not be put off by missed appointments or unanswered build on that success. I am delighted that we have doors. secured cross-Government support for an additional 159 Troubled Families Programme10 MARCH 2015 Troubled Families Programme 160

£200 million of funding for an expansion, to work with Office has found that, between 2010-11 and 2014-15, 400,000 more families from 2015 to 2020. That work budgeted spending on children’s social care actually fell has already started ahead of time in two thirds of areas. by 4.3% on average in authorities with the highest cuts I would like to end by referring to a letter from a head in Government funding, compared with real-terms increases teacher in Leicestershire to her troubled families team. of 14.8% in authorities with the lowest cuts. How is that She confesses to being a going to help? “notoriously grumpy Head Teacher on welfare issues”, Last August, it was announced that the troubled but says that the troubled families team is “something families programme would be expanded to work with quite different” that she “can’t praise enough.” Why is 400,000 more families from 2015 to 2020, with funding that? It is because, of £200 million for 2015-16, but the Secretary of State “for once, everybody seems to know what is going on”. has just said that he has secured cross-Government She concludes by saying: support and an additional £200 million for its expansion from 2015 to 2020. Will he confirm whether that “I have never come across anything quite like this before.” £200 million is for 2015-16 or for the whole period from Neither have I. That is why I am genuinely honoured to 2015 to 2020? have led this remarkable, life-changing programme for the Government, and why I am delighted that it is being The Secretary of State referred to the 10,000 adults expanded to help more troubled families across the who have moved into sustained work, which is a great country. I commend this statement to the House. achievement, but it still leaves more than 100,000 families where that has not happened. Would it not help those 12.46 pm families if we were to guarantee a job, as Labour is proposing, to every adult who has been out of work for Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): May I begin by more than two years and every young person who has thanking the Secretary of State for advance sight of his been out of work for more than a year? statement, and for his personal commitment to providing The Secretary of State rightly talked about the problems support to local authorities up and down the country that a number of these families have in paying bills. that are working with the most excluded families through How many troubled families are being hit by the profoundly the troubled families programme? unfair bedroom tax? Surely, to help them, that tax It is not often that we in this House pay tribute to should be scrapped, as we have committed to do? Why public servants, and we do not do it as much as we are the Government so intent on penalising people on should, so I would like to thank Louise Casey for the the lowest incomes, and how many of those families leadership she has shown and all of the staff working in currently rely on food banks to help feed their children? all of the projects for their extraordinary dedication, patience and commitment. Their skill in, above all, Over this Parliament, the Secretary of State has building trust with the families they work with is absolutely spoken regularly about the number of families who fundamental if together they are to succeed. have been turned around. However, within the original programme, a family could be so classified if they We on the Opposition Benches support this important reduced the level of crime committed by just a third. work. As the Secretary of State has generously Will he confirm whether such families are counted in acknowledged, the previous Labour Government started the total he gave today? the family intervention project, and a future Labour Government would want to see this work continue and In 2011, the Prime Minister said that troubled families go from strength to strength. were costing the state an estimated £9 billion a year. As the Secretary of State will know, a number of However, in his statement today, the Secretary of State local authorities and Labour pushed for the original said that if these savings were representative of all criteria to be broadened to enable local authorities to 105,000 families so far, it would generate a total of provide support to those families most in need and to £1.2 billion in gross fiscal benefits. Can he square those ensure that there was proper long-term follow-up to see two figures and confirm whether these savings are in whether families could maintain the progress that had fact being achieved? As he will be only too aware, been made. I welcome the fact that the Government demonstrating savings will be really important for securing listened to those representations and made the necessary future funding for the programme from other parts of changes. Whitehall. It is clear that we need to provide hands-on support We know that intensive support really can help families to families with multiple complex needs, in order to transform their lives. Raising children can be challenging help them to break cycles of disadvantage. It is also and we can all do with help and advice at times. We clear that we need to move away from trying to contain support the programme precisely because the local problems, at great expense, towards trying to prevent authorities that are implanting it on the ground are them in the first place. What assessment has the Secretary convinced that it makes a difference. However, the of State made of the concentration in the most deprived Government also have a responsibility to help all families, communities of families taking part in the troubled whether in difficulty or not, in other ways. Insecurity, families programme? I ask that because we know that, zero-hours contracts, a lack of affordable housing and under this Government, households living in areas that high rents are real concerns for them. If we are really to rank in the 10 most deprived communities have seen help all Britain’s families, we need a Government who their local authority spending power reduced by 16 times will do something about those things as well. as much as those in the 10 least deprived communities. Demands on children’s services are increasing and Mr Pickles: I am most grateful to the right hon. the figures show that local authorities are doing their Gentleman for his comments. In particular, I would like best to protect them. However, the National Audit to endorse his views on Louise Casey. It has been 161 Troubled Families Programme10 MARCH 2015 Troubled Families Programme 162

[Mr Pickles] Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): The Communities and Local Government Committee has a privilege over the past five years to get to know a been very supportive of the whole approach on troubled number of senior civil servants, but none have I enjoyed families. However, when the Secretary of State announced working with more than Louise, who is definitely one of his expansion of the programme in 2013, the Committee a kind. She has been an absolute joy to work with. I also pointed out that the increase in Government funding recognise that none of this could have been achieved was not in proportion to the increase in the number of without all-party support. families to be helped. Does he believe that local authorities The right hon. Gentleman made a number of points can be as successful in future, given the reduction in the on how we can demonstrate success and square the amount that central Government spend per family? £1.2 billion with the £9 billion. He knows as well as Given that savings to one public body can be a cost to anybody that this is notoriously difficult territory, because another as part of the programme, will not real success Governments of all types are absolutely terrible at in the end be the roll-out of whole-place community measuring outcomes. We have made a start—he might budgets, so that a proper account can be taken with a have had an opportunity to look at the research—by total approach to public expenditure in an area? How looking at seven exemplar authorities and extrapolating does he see that being rolled out alongside the troubled the findings to produce some financial analysis. To families programme? answer his questions, I think that it is only fair to have that audited independently. As he will know, we are due Mr Pickles: The hon. Gentleman makes a very interesting to have a very comprehensive audit of the programme. I point. It is usual for a Government to aim for the am confident that the exemplar authorities indicate low-hanging fruit when starting such a programme, what has been achieved. I think that I have been doing the easy things first before going on to those that conservative—no pun intended—in estimating what can are more difficult. We did exactly the reverse by starting be achieved. with the most difficult families. The troubled families The right hon. Gentleman made a number of points involved in the extended programme have nothing like about spending power. The point needs to be made that the complex needs of those in the first tranche, so I the Government are spending the most in the most think that it will be easier, cheaper and better when we deprived areas; we are spending an awful lot less on start dealing with them. With regard to money coming prosperous areas. I remind him, with great humility, in, he might be interested to know that, in Sheffield, that under the system in place before this Government there were 1,680 troubled families over that period, came in, we were throwing money at the problem and 100% of whom have been turned around, with expenditure achieving precisely nothing. By addressing some of the of £6.6 million. In Leeds, there were 2,190 troubled social ills, dealing with the problems, shoulder to shoulder families, 100% of whom have been turned around, with with Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat councils, expenditure of £7.79 million. we have been able to achieve these benefits. It so happens that it is cheaper, but it is actually better and more Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): caring, because we are not throwing people away, I, too, congratulate the Secretary of State, Louise Casey condemning them to a life on benefits. and all those associated with the programme, not least the participants. How does he envisage the lifestyle Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Having been Minister changes being sustained as we move on to this very for Criminal Justice at the birth of this programme, and welcome and massive expansion of the programme? having seen it operating on the front line in my constituency since, may I join my right hon. Friend in congratulating Mr Pickles: We need to be absolutely clear that we Louise Casey? I congratulate him on the leadership he are almost certainly not turning out model citizens. We has given, along with the Secretary of State for Work are, however, giving children from troubled families the and Pensions, in bringing this home. I slightly regret the opportunity to have a better chance of success. That is tone taken by the shadow Secretary of State, which I something we are keen to monitor, check and make sure think disguises a recognition that the programme has happens. In that way, we have an opportunity to break really worked by bringing all the agencies together, the cycle. which is something he and I saw back in 2000 when we served together on a Select Committee. I ask my right Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I thank the Secretary hon. Friend to ensure that we learn the lessons that will of State for his statement. The programme in Stockport emerge from the first four years of the programme and is very impressive in bringing together local agencies to see that it carries on in the excellent way it has started. help families. He will be aware that there is an under- reporting of child abuse, child sexual exploitation and Mr Pickles: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. It other forms of abuse in many of these families. Does he is of course important that we learn the lessons of the agree that one of the outcomes, in measuring the success programme. I think that it has been quite clear that by of the programme, is the prevention of child abuse and keeping things as simple as possible, by looking very child sexual exploitation in these families? carefully at the different criteria and by having a completely straightforward approach—some Members have suggested Mr Pickles: The hon. Lady is the author of a very that we might be fiddling the figures by reducing crime, good report on the subject of child sexual exploitation, although reducing crime seems to me to be pretty and she and I discussed this matter at a seminar last important—we have kept the programme transparent, week at Downing street. She makes a very reasonable so people can actually see it. I believe that we have point. I think the reason the programme has had a fair treated everyone in this process with respect, particularly amount of success is that it does not deal with this the troubled families. problem through social services or the benefits agency 163 Troubled Families Programme10 MARCH 2015 Troubled Families Programme 164 alone. There have to be different disciplines in the room. Mr Pickles: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who The same applies to tackling child sexual exploitation. should know that there are 805 troubled families in his Social work is very well set up and very good at dealing local authority. Some 99% of them have been turned with child sexual exploitation within a family; when the around, with an expenditure of just slightly more than problem involves organised crime, it becomes more £2 million. Louise Casey is a remarkable woman, but difficult to deal with. I think the point she made at the this could not have been achieved by her presence and seminar is this: who would have thought that we would determination alone, formidable though they are. We need to regulate taxis and the night-time economy to are bringing people along and they are getting the deal with child sexual exploitation? A broader approach opportunity to do something about the process. I have will bring much better co-ordination and the greatest seen an enormous sense of leadership in different authorities chance of success. I agree with her. right across the country, because they can now do something about the problem. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I, too, congratulate the Secretary of State on his vision, persistence and John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I welcome leadership in seeing through this very important programme the announcement of the future funding for this programme, that helps to change lives and transform people’s prospects. but the Secretary of State failed to answer my right hon. Will he tell the House how many children have benefited Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) from this programme and will now be able to fulfil their and say whether the £200 million is for 2015-16 or the true and fullest potential? full five years of the next Parliament. On current funding, the Secretary of State has been withholding from Rotherham council about £750,000 in troubled families Mr Pickles: Time will tell how many children will and transformation award funding. Given the special benefit in the end. Getting children back into school circumstances and the challenges we face, will he now and attending three successive terms makes a big difference. release that funding to Rotherham? In my hon. Friend’s area, the total number of families we would describe as troubled is 2,560. Some 80% have been turned around. So far, just short of £10 million has Mr Pickles: As far as the right hon. Gentleman’s been expended in that process. constituency is concerned, there are two local authorities. Barnsley, with 645 troubled families, has achieved a 95% turnaround, which has cost slightly more than Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I congratulate £2 million. Rotherham, with 730 troubled families, has the Secretary of State, Louise Casey and the families achieved a 89% turnaround, which, again, has cost who have turned their lives around. On behalf of my slightly more than £2 million. He makes a really interesting constituents, many of whom now have a more peaceful point: even in that sea of dysfunction, the work with existence, may I also, through him, thank the front-line troubled families has been very successful. I am delighted workers who have brought about these changes? In to tell the right hon. Gentleman that I have released the “Feeding Britain”, the cross-party inquiry into hunger money. The money will go to Rotherham today. in this country, the Secretary of State may recall that, although we drew attention to those families who simply Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I sincerely thank my did not have enough money to feed their children, there right hon. Friend for his leadership of this project, were other scallywags who could not be bothered to which has helped to turn around the lives of 1,165 families feed their children. Is it possible for him to confirm that in West Sussex. Will he join me in sincerely thanking the schools, which prevent those children from being hungry, workers in my constituency who have made such a could in the next stage have the right to refer families positive difference to individuals and to our community directly to the troubled families unit? as a whole?

Mr Pickles: It works, I think, remarkably well now. Mr Pickles: I think the House is divided into those The right hon. Gentleman will recall that in the main who know exactly the number of troubled families in part of my statement I referred to a head teacher from their areas and those who do not. I confirm that my Leicestershire. It makes a big difference if we involve hon. Friend’s arithmetic is absolutely correct. I also everyone. Sadly, I have not visited Birkenhead in this confirm that the improvement is entirely due to the process—I know that 80% of the 910 troubled families enormous hard work of the people in his area determined there have been turned around, with £3.3 million to make a difference. expended—but I was fairly close by, to look at the team in Chester. It is the most remarkable thing to see a Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): This is whole bunch of people from different disciplines sitting an important and successful approach. It is the kind of down together, including representatives of firefighters, approach that I took when I first started my social work who play an important part in picking up intelligence career more than 30 years ago and that, in those days, and information. many social work staff took. One of the reasons why silos developed was the pressure on budgets. Given that Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The families supported many local authorities have tried to protect children’s by this programme are often affected by multiple problems, services but they continue to be under threat, how will which are then responded to by multiple agencies. Is the the Secretary of State ensure that services, which are success of the scheme not due to the ability of Louise preventive and help troubled families through this Casey and her team to cut across the previous silo programme and children’s services, continue and are mentality and join up the support that has enabled lives given priority, so that we do not go backwards, whether to be changed? with children’s services or troubled families? 165 Troubled Families Programme 10 MARCH 2015 166

Mr Pickles: The hon. Lady’s analysis is good. I think Trade Union Reform (Civil Service) there has been too much silo building taking place inside local government. It has been almost like, to mix a metaphor, laagering the wagons. That has been a 1.12 pm mistake. It is not possible to deal with something as The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster complex as troubled families by relying solely on social General (Mr Francis Maude): With permission, Mr Speaker, work or a children’s department. It involves many other I would like to make a statement on trade unions in the agencies. We get change in government when we deal civil service. with issues. We tend not to work terribly well when we Trade unions can play an important role in the modern become obsessed with governance. workplace. Some important reforms implemented under the coalition Government, such as changes to the civil Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The service compensation scheme and public sector pensions, Secretary of State deserves praise for taking this originally were the subject of extended and constructive discussions Labour policy and pursuing it energetically to this with a range of public sector trade unions, and I am stage, and on any other day, I would welcome it and grateful to union leaders for the forward-looking and celebrate it with him unreservedly, but this is the day thoughtful way in which they have engaged with the when Her Majesty’s inspectorate, Ofsted, revealed that need for reform. However, further reforms were needed two thirds of children’s services departments are in a to how the unions operated within the civil service, and dire situation. Children in this country are exposed to I want to update the House on progress. great danger, and departments up and down the country are at risk because of the cuts to local government Facility time describes the arrangement whereby union finance. Will he put that in context and please come officials and representatives have paid time off for trade back to the House to tell us what he is going to do about union duties and activities. Properly controlled and it? monitored, this can assist with the rapid resolution of local disputes and grievances, but five years ago in the Mr Pickles: When the hon. Gentleman decides to civil service, it was neither controlled nor monitored. give praise, I sincerely I hope that I am here to see it, but We found that thousands of civil servants were paid, I think that it is some distance in the future. sometimes including travel costs and expenses, to attend union conferences. We found that more than 200 civil Given that the shadow Chancellor has made it absolutely servants were being paid to work full time on union clear that there is no additional money for local government, business. Several had been promoted, one of them the hon. Gentleman’s comments ring rather hollow. twice, without ever doing the job for which they were Had he read the report carefully, he would have seen employed. that it specifically states that our approach to troubled families offers them a future and the best way of doing The total cost to taxpayers of trade union facility things, and he should be aware that, in Kirklees, he has time taken by these officials and the thousands of other 1,115 troubled families and that 88% of them have been part-time representatives was a staggering £36 million a turned around, with an expenditure of just short of year. Unacceptable at any time, this was particularly £4.5 million. intolerable at a time when the coalition Government were making difficult decisions to get the country’s Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The finances back on track. Facility time in the civil service savings the Secretary of State has mentioned are welcome, is now rigorously monitored and reported. Now, unless but surely the scheme’s value should be measured by its specifically authorised by a Minister, all trade union impact on individual lives and its success in lifting representatives must spend at least half their time doing families out of hopelessness, bringing them into sustainable the civil service job for which they were employed. work and giving them hope for the future. I welcome Gone is the automatic paid time off to attend seaside that, but what consultation or discussions about the union conferences. scheme has he had with the devolved Administrations? Today I can tell the House that the cost of trade union facility time has dropped by nearly 75%, from Mr Pickles: We have kept the devolved Administrations £36 million in 2011 to just over £10 million now, saving completely informed of what we are doing, and I would taxpayers £26 million a year. The cost has fallen from urge them to take this up. It is clear that the project 0.26% of pay bill to just 0.07% for the latest rolling year works, and I think that we could see benefits across the to date—well below the benchmark we set of 0.1%. I piece. I absolutely endorse what the hon. Gentleman can also reveal that the number of full-time trade union says about the proof being life change—the money is officials on the public’s payroll has fallen from 200 in great and the savings are wonderful, but it is the changed 2011 to just eight today. With the civil service now over lives that we are after. one fifth smaller—like for like—than it was in 2010, I expect the overall number of representatives to continue to fall over the coming years. Check-off is the practice where the employer collects trade union subscriptions from payroll on behalf of the union, and decisions on whether this should continue are delegated to individual Departments. The civil service management code requires Departments to recover the cost of check-off from the unions, which only two Departments were doing, so the head of the civil service has written to permanent secretaries of Departments where check-off remains to remind them of this obligation. 167 Trade Union Reform (Civil Service)10 MARCH 2015 Trade Union Reform (Civil Service) 168

So far, eight Departments have served notice to the Of course, we support genuine attempts to eradicate trade unions that they intend to remove check-off: Her abuse, but the Government’s rhetoric tells a different Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the Ministry of Defence, story—one that is more about their political ideology the Home Office, the Department for Communities and than good accounting. Check-off is another example. Local Government, the Department for International Many major private employers use it: in construction, Development, the Department for Work and Pensions, there is Balfour Beatty; in pharmaceuticals, there is the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs AstraZeneca; in manufacturing, there is BAE Systems, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Others GKN and Rolls-Royce. All of these private sector have started the consultation process to allow this to companies recognise its benefits, but unsurprisingly this happen. I believe that this change will enable unions to Conservative-led Government have done everything they build a much more direct relationship with their members, can to end check-off. Given that the cost of check-off is without the need for the relationship to be intermediated relatively low and that most unions are happy to pay the by the employer. cost of administering it themselves, it is clear that this is Taken together, these reforms have made a considerable another stage in the long campaign to weaken trade contribution to modernising Departments’ relationships unions and disfranchise their members. Would it not with their trade unions—reforms that were long overdue— have been better to give the trade unions and their tens and I commend the statement to the House. of thousands of members across government proper and ample time to move members on to a direct debit system, which I am sure we all agree is more sustainable Hon. Members: What was the point of that? in the long-term? That is what we will do, and I want to put on record that when we win in May, we will ensure Mr Speaker: Well, it was apparently judged worthy of that this is made possible across all Departments. an oral statement. The Minister has come to this House today with his Lynton Crosby route 1 election strategy: bash the unions and duck the leaders’ debates. Hard-pressed public sector 1.16 pm workers will see this for what it is, and they know that Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): I they deserve better than this. thank the Minister for advanced sight of the statement—it is good to see that at least this member of the Cabinet is Mr Maude: It is lovely to see the hon. Member for not ducking difficult questions in Parliament today. Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) taking time off from It is election time, so we have a Tory Minister coming her pressing duties of holding the Labour party’s election to the House as part of a pre-election union-bashing campaign together. It is good to have her here. I thank exercise. There is absolutely nothing new in this statement, her for her gracious support for the majority of what we so one wonders what his motives are. The Government do. It is important to stress that much of what we have have a clear strategy towards public servants up and done on civil service reform has commanded widespread down the country: “The Government do not value the support across the political spectrum. I am grateful to work you do and are hellbent on disfranchising you and her and her predecessors for the constructive way in weakening your rights at work.” Government Members, which they have done that—[Interruption.] The hon. especially those in marginal seats, should be worried Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) about the impact this is having on public sector voters makes a comment that is rather less graceful than his in their constituencies. colleague. One has to ask whether this so-called statement is John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): It just a smokescreen for a Prime Minister running scared was me. of a debate about the future of our country and a Chancellor whose economic plans threaten £70 billion of cuts that would take us back to a time before there Mr Maude: It is very hard to differentiate. was even an NHS. The right hon. Gentleman is a Let me deal head on with the hon. Lady’s points. She reasonable man, and I support what the Government says that this is an attack on public servants, but it is are doing on many aspects of civil service reform, but I absolutely the contrary. She talks as if this is an attack will not support the steps he has taken under the name on union facility time. It is not. I said in my statement—she of trade union reform, which have resulted in souring might have listened to it; she had it in advance—that I relations, low staff morale and unnecessary industrial supported the use of facility time. Facility time for trade action, and have scuppered some of his otherwise valiant union duties is protected by law. Trade union duties—the attempts to change how government is run. resolution of disputes and grievances—are important, Facility time is an important resource not just for and the presence of trade union officials and representatives union members and employees but for the employer within the workplace can be helpful in achieving that. and, in this case, the taxpayer. Labour is clear that What we are concerned with is the abuse and the use of facility time is not political time; where well deployed paid time off in facility time for large numbers of civil and not abused, it reduces many human resources costs servants to attend their union conferences with their to a company, such as by reducing the number of expenses paid at the public expense. That is not acceptable. disputes going to an employment tribunal, recruitment That is what we have called time on. costs and the number of days off sick and workplace I know that the hon. Lady and her colleagues do not injuries. That is why some of the biggest companies, like it, and we know what the reason is. The reason is such as Rolls-Royce and Jaguar Land Rover, support perfectly simple: it is because the Labour party is paid facility time—because it is part of an effective HR for and puppet-mastered by the trade unions. She should strategy and a productive workforce. come clean and say that the Labour party election 169 Trade Union Reform (Civil Service)10 MARCH 2015 Trade Union Reform (Civil Service) 170

[Mr Maude] Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): Government Departments offer a range of check-off campaign that she is trying to hold together and conduct services to their employees, including deductions for is paid for by exactly the trade union leaders who have membership fees, for private sporting clubs, for private no doubt written the script that she has read out to the clubs more generally and even for private medical schemes. House today. What is it that makes the payments of trade union dues exceptional? Why would any employer want to withdraw Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The practices that the this from its own employees? Minister described as seeing on his arrival at the Cabinet Office in 2010 will have come as a complete shock to my Mr Maude: As the right hon. Gentleman, who is constituents. May I tell him that my constituents will knowledgeable on this subject, knows, many employers very much support the steps he has taken to ensure fair have taken exactly this step. Many unions have sought use of union time by officials? to withdraw from check-off arrangements themselves, Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is completely right. To be because they take the view that a modern union in a honest, it was a complete shock to us to see how much modern workplace should have a direct relationship this system had been abused, and how little effort was with their members, not intermediated by the employer. made by our predecessors to count and control the Check-off dates from an era when many people did not costs of what was happening. When Opposition Members have bank accounts and direct debit did not exist. It say that this is an attack on public servants, the truth is exists now, and many unions take the view, and indeed that public servants would much rather have this money the PCS has said, that the easiest way to collect their spent on public services, which is their vocation, than dues is through direct debit. on supporting trade union officials at the taxpayers’ expense. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the Minister join me in congratulating the TaxPayers Alliance on its John McDonnell: We are going to have to develop important work which shows that £100 million of public some criteria for providing statements to this House, money is wasted on facility time? Does he share my because this is a complete waste of the House’s time. concern that a PCS-Unite merger would undermine our The Minister needs to get up to speed: the Public and democracy and mean that the Labour party would be Commercial Services Union has never been affiliated to even more bought by the unions than it is today? the Labour party and has never funded it, so he can drop these accusations. This is all about union busting, Mr Maude: I make the point again that the perception so I want to know what investigation took place into the of political impartiality in the civil service is fundamental union-busting strategy within HMRC, where leaked to our system of government. That should not be reports said that trade unionists were to be victimised imperilled in any way. My hon. Friend is completely and the union to be broken within that department. right to draw attention to the much wider scale of What did the right hon. Gentleman do about that? facility time and the cost borne by the taxpayer—money Mr Maude: First, I never said that about the PCS. I that would be better spent in the delivery of front-line know it is not affiliated. The PCS dislikes the Labour public services on which vulnerable people depend. party nearly as much as it dislikes us. Secondly, when it That is something that all public authorities should be comes to attacks on public servants, the hon. Gentleman’s looking at. attack on hard-working public servants in HMRC—the management of HMRC, those senior hard-working Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Is the officials who have decided in conducting their vocation Minister aware that all he needed to say today was quite of public service that check-off should be discontinued—is simple: Tory Ministers are continuing with their spite disgraceful. and vendetta against trade unions? This is nothing different from what has occurred previously. Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that unions can perform an Mr Maude: That was not really a question, Mr Speaker, important role in the workplace, but that the creation of but by way of response, most public servants and most a so-called super union would damage the perception of members of the public and the people who use public the independence of civil servants and that many would services would prefer the money to be spent on the wish not to join such a union? delivery of public services, not on the delivery of trade Mr Maude: I saw a report this morning suggesting union salaries. that there was a plan, not yet divulged to the public, for the PCS to be swallowed up by Unite. Civil service John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): This political impartiality is an essential part of the way in statement is called “Trade Union Reform (Civil Service)”, which our system of government works. For the largest so will the Minister correct himself and the record and civil service union to be controlled by the same puppet- confirm that none of the civil service unions is affiliated master and paymaster that controls Labour would be a to the Labour party or pays towards it? Rolls-Royce, matter—[Interruption]—of very considerable concern— Tesco, Virgin Media, Odeon Cinemas, Jaguar Land Rover —some of our biggest and best British companies—work Mr Speaker: Order. When I say the Minister is finished, with trade unions, recognise trade unions, and offer check- let it be clear. It is no good him sitting there shrugging. off to trade union members and facility time to their When I say he is finished, he is finished. It is important representatives. Why are the Government not dealing not to waste the time of the House. It is beneath the with their staff and unions in the same decent, modern level of a Minister. way? 171 Trade Union Reform (Civil Service)10 MARCH 2015 Trade Union Reform (Civil Service) 172

Mr Maude: I support the use of trade union time, but engage with each other very fully, and I am happy to say it must be controlled and monitored, and it must not be that I have warm relationships with a number of trade abused. I also support the presence of trade unions in union leaders. the workplace, and I personally have worked very closely with them. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am probably spent 12 months in productive discussions with the the only Member of Parliament who is a former branch TUC and public sector trade unions when we were secretary of the First Division Association, and I think considering public sector pension reform, and we made that the Minister’s attempt to divide junior from senior a number of changes to reflect the concerns of the officials is wholly misconceived. It reminds me of the unions that were prepared to engage with us. I need no time when Mrs Thatcher kicked the trade unions out of lectures about the importance of engagement with the GCHQ. unions, but the arrangements should be controlled and Why has the Minister chosen this moment to crack modernised, and the right way for that to be done is the down on check-off? Has he done so because the Office way that I have described. for Budget Responsibility has forecast a 1 million reduction in the number of public servants, and he wants to Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I have seriously weaken the unions before that happens? tried to understand the rationale for what the Minister has announced. It appears that the management were not controlling the check-off arrangements properly, Mr Maude: The hon. Lady’s mind is more elaborate because the unions would have paid the costs willingly, than mine. We have looked at this in a perfectly sensible, but those costs were not paid. It also appears that the straightforward way. We want trade unions in the civil management could have monitored the difference between service—and in this context I am talking only about the facility time for activities and facility time for duties, civil service—to engage in a sensible, modern fashion, but did not do so. That suggests a failure in senior and we want public money to be deployed in the delivery management. As for attendance at conferences, it seems of public services rather than the delivery of trade that trade unions will still be paid if they hold their union officials’ salaries. annual conferences in Newcastle, Glasgow, Birmingham or Liverpool, because the Minister mentioned only Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Minister said that seaside conferences. The truth is that this is nothing Departments were entitled to recover the costs of check-off more than another attempt to find the bogeyman whom from the unions, and rattled off a list of Departments the Conservatives have tried to find for the last five that were ending check-off. Have any of those Departments years. They want another Arthur Scargill so that they made any attempt to negotiate with the unions on the can try to rattle a can in the next few weeks. That is what costs of check-off, or does the Minister simply want to this is all about. get rid of check-off altogether?

Mr Maude: Given that Opposition Members apparently Mr Maude: For many years, the civil service management do not think the statement should have been made, they code has obliged Departments to recover the costs of are finding plenty to say about it. Indeed, we are having check-off from the unions, but only two have been a good and productive debate. It is important for the doing so, namely the Ministry of Defence and HMRC. issues to be debated, because they do matter. Check-off will remain in place in a number of Departments, As I said, I take my relationship with trade unions and the head of the civil service has very properly very seriously. I continue to chair the public services written to their permanent secretaries telling them that forum which was set up under the last Government. We they should rectify the position. 173 10 MARCH 2015 174

Point of Order Mesothelioma (Amendment) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 1.34 pm No. 23) Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am a new Member of Parliament, 1.36 pm but I understand that it is a convention in the House for a Minister, or any other MP, who is to visit a constituency Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I beg to inform the Member who represents that constituency. to move, Over the last six weeks I have had the pleasure of That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Mesothelioma receiving numerous visits from Conservative Ministers Act 2014. who, no doubt, have wished to see how a Liberal Let me begin by paying tribute to my predecessors Democrat-controlled council and the Liberal Democrat Paul Goggins and Lord Morris of Manchester. Paul MP are managing to make such a good fist of it in had been fighting hard for mesothelioma victims shortly Eastbourne, and they have always been kind enough to before his sad death last year. Alf, who introduced me let me know, even when there has been only an hour to public life, had been doing likewise, seeing that work to go before their arrival. However, I was disappointed as an extension of his groundbreaking Chronically Sick to discover that the Secretary of State for the Home and Disabled Persons Act 1970. Today, I walk in the Department had visited my constituency yesterday, and footsteps of giants. I had not been notified. Mesothelioma is an invasive form of lung cancer, This morning I spoke to Beryl Healy, who is a former caused primarily by earlier exposure to asbestos. There mayor of Eastbourne and a well known and established is currently no cure. Patients often experience complex constituent of mine. She told me that she thought that and debilitating symptoms, and most die within 12 months this was simply bad manners, but I believe that the Home of diagnosis. The United Kingdom has the highest rate Secretary is a very courteous parliamentarian, and I of the disease in the world. Mortality rates are increasing, admire her courtesy even when I disagree with her. In and have more than quadrupled over the last 30 years. that respect, I feel that she has let me down. Can you It is estimated that more than 2,500 people will die of advise me on how I can address the Home Secretary on the disease in the UK this year, and that during the next this matter, Mr Speaker? 30 years about 60,000 will die unless new treatments are found. Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has made his own Relatively little is spent on mesothelioma research in point in his own way, and he has used the device of a the UK in comparison with what is spent on other point of order to register his discontent. Let me say cancers involving comparable mortality. In 2012, the this to him. The convention—and it is not a rule or a National Cancer Research Institute reported that just law—is well established, although I am sorry to say that £1.2 million had been invested in research by its partners. it is frequently honoured as much in the breach as in the That is significantly less than the £9.9 million and the observance, a phenomenon that tends to be exacerbated £5.3 million that were spent on, respectively, skin cancer—or in the run-up to an election. melanoma—and myeloma, two conditions that kill a I would prefer Members to resolve these matters similar number of people each year. satisfactorily without their having continually to be Research funding could have helped Derrick and aired on the Floor of the House. I am sympathetic to Adele. Derrick was diagnosed with mesothelioma in the hon. Gentleman, but I think that he must now rely December last year and sadly died just over a month on his own devices to ward off repeat performances that later, on 17 January this year. He was exposed to he judges to be discourteous. asbestos as a young joiner in the early 1950s, when he was working on council houses and building pre-fabs. Like many joiners and construction workers, he was exposed when working with insulation board and corrugated roofing—both were used widely in the construction industry between the 1950s and the 1980s—all of which was riddled with asbestos. Although the dangers of asbestos were well known to those who produced the materials, Derrick was not advised of those dangers; nor was he given protective equipment to shield him from the asbestos fibres. He had had no known exposure to asbestos after 1956, but his exposure to it as a young man was enough to lead to the diagnosis of terminal cancer nearly 60 years later. Adele is a 46-year-old old single mother who was diagnosed with mesothelioma just before Christmas 2014. As a young hairdresser, she had been exposed to asbestos fibres that were contained in the old-style hood hairdryers. Hairdressing is not typically thought of a job that would cause such a risk. Unfortunately, asbestos has been a feature in many different workplaces, and it can take only very low level, or fleeting, exposure to cause mesothelioma. The added tragedy for Adele is 175 Mesothelioma (Amendment)10 MARCH 2015 Mesothelioma (Amendment) 176 that her father was also diagnosed with the disease less Dr Robert Rintoul, who works at MesobanK, sees than six months before her own diagnosis, caused by the importance of research not only for the UK, which exposure at his own workplace, a double burden for this is dramatically affected by this disease, but the rest of close-knit family to endure. the world. He says that The results from the funded research projects have, “asbestos is still being used in an unsafe and unregulated way. however, been impressive. New researchers from other Although the number of cases of mesothelioma in the UK will areas of therapy have started taking an interest in fall over the next 30 years, there will continue to be an epidemic of mesothelioma, bringing with them new expertise and the disease globally and the lessons that we learn today about the biology of the disease will be used by doctors the world over in insights. MesobanK, Europe’s first mesothelioma tissue years to come.” bank, has been created to collect and store biological tissue from patients for use in research, and work is Unless a change is introduced in the way mesothelioma being funded to identify the genetic architecture of the research is funded, we risk stagnation and endanger disease. potential life-changing, even life-saving, breakthroughs. Currently, research relies on ad hoc contributions from There have been ongoing conversations with the insurers, charitable donations and modest funding from insurance industry regarding research funding for many the Government. This unreliable approach to funding years now. In January 2015, it was announced that two jeopardises ongoing research, impacting not only on insurance companies—Aviva and Zurich—had agreed the British research industry but on mesothelioma mortality to donate a combined £1 million over two years to the in the UK. That is why statutory funding is needed; it British Lung Foundation’s mesothelioma research must be secured for the research. programme. However, although the funding from Aviva and Zurich is welcome, £500,000 a year alone does not So let us commit on this day, at this time and in this come close to addressing the multimillion-pound funding place to Derrick and Adele, and to those who did not deficit currently endured by mesothelioma research when make it and those to come, to make the change required. compared with cancers of comparable mortality. Many I beg to move. more insurance industry donations of this kind will be Question put and agreed to. required to justify the preference, expressed by several Ordered, MPs during the Mesothelioma Act 2014 debates, for such funding to be secured through voluntary agreements, That Mike Kane, Andy McDonald, Mr Andy Slaughter, rather than to have a statutory underpinning. It is Tracey Crouch, Ian Paisley, Sammy Wilson, Jim Sheridan, estimated that there are 150 insurance firms active in Jim Shannon, Dr Wollaston, John Woodcock, Mr lain the employers’ liability insurance market, and a small McKenzie and Steve Rotherham present the Bill. statutory contribution from each could transform Mike Kane accordingly presented the Bill. mesothelioma research. That is what this Bill hopes to Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on achieve today. Friday 27 March 2015, and to be printed (Bill 185). The recent funding I have already mentioned is only secured for two years. This does not address the need to put funding on a sustainable footing. We need this for DEREGULATION BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO.3) the benefits of research breakthroughs to be built on, and not lost. Dr Peter Campbell, who is conducting Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing research identifying which genes are the most important Order No. 83A(7)), targets for mutations, has stated: That the following provisions shall apply to the Deregulation Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 3 February “Only by understanding its basic biology will we be able to 2014 in the last Session of Parliament (Deregulation Bill (Programme)), develop a new generation of drugs targeted at the specific abnormalities as varied by the Order of 14 May 2014 in that Session (Deregulation of mesothelioma cells. This requires sustained investment at all Bill (Programme)(No. 2)):—(Damian Hinds.) levels of mesothelioma research, from basic genetics and cell biology through drug development to clinical trials.” Question agreed to. 177 10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 178

Deregulation Bill findings, and potential next steps, should be considered in the context of charter review. This position has not Consideration of Lords amendments. changed. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): I The BBC’s current charter expires on 31 December must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial 2016. The Government will not begin charter review privilege is involved in Lords amendment 33. If the until after the election and there is no set process for House agrees to the amendment, I shall ensure that the how the review of the charter should be conducted, or appropriate entry is made in the Journal. when. It will be for the Government of the day to take forward any further actions as they see fit. We must not make presumptions about the Clause 60 recommendations that Mr Perry will make, nor about how the Government will decide to take them forward, particularly as the public consultation element of this TV LICENSING: ALTERNATIVES TO CRIMINAL SANCTIONS work is ongoing. Clearly, any changes will require serious consideration in the broader context of the charter 1.46 pm review process, and it will be for the next Government to ensure that the right enforcement regime for licence The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom fee payers, the courts and indeed the BBC itself is in Brake): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with place. Lords amendment 38. Our amendment ensures that the next Government will be ready and able to implement whatever Madam Deputy Speaker: With this we may take recommendations David Perry, QC wishes to make, Government amendments (a) and (b) in lieu. when the Secretary of State’s regulation-making power commences in April 2017. There was significant cross-party Tom Brake: I want briefly to outline why the support for the TV licensing clauses during our earlier Government have introduced amendments in lieu of consideration of this Bill in this House. The firm Lords amendment 38. commitments set out by the Government at that time A television licence is required to watch all live or must be honoured, particularly given that strong, cross-party nearly-live broadcast television content on any device in support. Our amendment ensures that David Perry’s the UK. People should not seek to evade this and there review will be promptly considered by the Government needs to be an effective enforcement regime for the of the day, and that any potential changes are introduced failure to have a TV licence. to a clear timetable, leading up to 1 April 2017. For all Clause 76 imposes a duty for the Secretary of State to the reasons I have outlined, I ask hon. Members to ensure that a review of the TV licensing enforcement disagree with the Lords amendment and support our regime is carried out. This review will identify whether amendments in lieu. the current enforcement regime is appropriate and proportionate, and will ensure that there is a strong, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Anybody would think, evidence-based case for any potential changes to the TV from the way the Minister just presented his case, that licence enforcement regime. This matters a great deal to this has been a smooth path and everything the Government many people. intended from the very beginning. But there was only an amendment relating to the licence fee at all because The Government are very clear that the review of the of a Government Back-Bencher, the hon. Member for licensing enforcement regime is a high priority. The North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen)—who may decision was taken to commence this review in advance be able to catch your eye a little later, Madam Deputy of Royal Assent, while retaining the clause that commits Speaker—and we have a change only because in the the Government to carry out the review to ensure that Lords the Government’s position was overturned by this important piece of work is completed. The review is three votes. I am, of course, proud that we now have a being led, independently, by David Perry QC. The findings far more sensible set of propositions before us. I admit of the review, which will complete by the end of June 2015, that the Liberal Democrat heart that is still beating will be laid in both Houses of Parliament and be within the Minister is probably on our side in this presented to the BBC Trust. argument, but he might at least have shown that that The proposed further amendment requires the Secretary heart still beats, rather than just deliver what his paymasters of State within three months of the review reporting to in the Conservative party have told him to deliver. set out whether the Government intend to decriminalise The truth is that Labour Members support the BBC or not, and commits the Government to indicate clearly licence fee for the foreseeable future, not out of ideological the timetable they plan to follow upon the completion passion but simply because it has worked and because of the Perry review. Our overriding aim is to ensure that the vast majority of people in this country support it. the system is appropriate, proportionate, fair, and represents Everybody comes up with other ideas; every Select the best value. Committee that has ever examined this issue has set out This amendment places a firm commitment on the this, that and the other idea for us to consider, but at the Government of the day to promptly and properly consider end has said that the least worst option is the licence fee. the report and set out their response and the timetable Broadly speaking, that is what the Select Committee on of steps to be taken, within three months of the report’s Culture, Media and Sport decided in its report a couple completion. Clause 77 confers a new power for the of weeks ago. Secretary of State, via secondary legislation, to change the sanctions that apply to the failure to have a TV Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): licence. We have always maintained that the report’s Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 179 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 180

Chris Bryant: Of course. I cannot think of anyone to for Culture, Media and Sport but out of the licence fee, whom I would want to give way more. and the World Service is being paid for not by the Foreign Office, but out of the licence fee.

Mark Field: The lack of any other options on the Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con) Government Benches may have something to do with rose— that. I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not mistake the broad support on the Government Benches for a Chris Bryant: I see that the hon. Gentleman is pregnant. different and less stringent sanctions regime for support for the TV licence. I very much support the idea of a TV Andrew Bridgen: If the BBC has had such a tough licence, but we need somehow to rein back what has financial settlement and it can no longer go on with a been allowed to happen with TV licence sanctions. That freeze on the licence fee, can the hon. Gentleman explain is what drives most of the support for this amendment. why the number of managers—not staff, but managers— who work for the BBC and are paid more than the Chris Bryant: I did not give way to the hon. Gentleman Prime Minister has increased by 10% in the past 12 months? faute de mieux. He is right in what he says, and some Opposition Members are as passionate in their support Chris Bryant: Those are precisely the kinds of points for the licence fee as he is, as I am or as Tony Hall is but the BBC has to address. It has to make sure that more who want a change to the rules on how the licence fee is and more of its money is spent on programming rather administered and on the penalties for those who do not than on administration. That is why I congratulate the pay. My noble Friend Baroness Corston put forward a hon. Gentleman on one element of his campaign, which cogent and moving argument, to which one would have is that he has argued forcefully that the collection to be hard-hearted not to listen, on the criminalisation system that we must have for the licence fee costs some aspects of the current situation. Our point, which won £100 million a year and he has asked whether there is a substantially in the House of Lords, was that we have a better way of doing that. That is a perfectly legitimate system that broadly works, and if we want to change it, question to ask. it would be better to change it in the round, rather than Of course there are those—I see the hon. Member for simply changing the licence fee. Let me explain why. Shipley (Philip Davies) has just entered the Chamber at The licence fee is not just about funding the BBC’s precisely the right moment—who would dismantle the programming, although it is true that it provides £3.7 billion licence fee. He is the only member of the Select Committee of investment in the arts, broadcasting and British who voted to get rid of the licence fee completely. Some culture through the BBC, which it is difficult to see how people would want to change it, and that is a perfectly any other model would deliver to the same degree. In legitimate argument to have. My concern about how the addition, it provides for a degree of competition for Government behaved on this issue is that the version quality, as well as for audiences, with the other broadcasters. they sent through to the House of Lords would have Thus, ITV wants to make high-quality drama and does meant that the Government could have instituted the so; many of the dramas people often associate with the decriminalisation of non-payment of the licence fee BBC are actually made by ITV.Likewise, Channel 4 has without consideration of that issue within the whole a special role to play because of the original remit it was package of other issues relating to the BBC and charter given to be edgy, alternative and sometimes naughty. It renewal. In effect, that would have left the door open to can perform that public service broadcasting role within dismantling the licence fee without even intending to do the whole ecosystem only if the BBC licence fee also so. I am certain that, as right hon. and hon. Members exists and if Channel 4 remains in public hands. I am said in the House of Lords, if the Government were to sure that the Minister would agree with me on that one proceed too swiftly, we would simply see a significant about Channel 4, even if some Conservative Members fall in licence fee take-up almost immediately. We could might not. be talking about something in the region of £200 million or £250 million, which is more than the cost of all The Opposition believe that it is important that there children’s broadcasting. is the licence fee, and that it is a massive investment in production and drama, not just the kind of long-form We need to think carefully about the timing of how dramas that exist in American commercial broadcasting we proceed, which is why Labour supported in the and are often very lucrative, but the short-form dramas, House of Lords the amendment that the Government such as “The Casual Vacancy”, which has been on the are objecting to today, but not really objecting to. They BBC over the past few weeks. It was only three episodes are doing an adroit about-turn, for which we are deeply long and it would be very difficult to make in any grateful. I wish to praise my colleagues in the House of environment other than one where there is some form Lords, particularly Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and of subsidy. In news, current affairs, comedy and so Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town, who made sure that many different areas, the BBC would not be able to the amendment was carried, with a lot of cross-Bench perform the same function without the licence fee. support and a significant amount of Liberal Democrat support. Labour Members have been critical of the difficult time the BBC has had. Of course it always has to strive better to make its resources stretch further, but since 2pm 2010 it has had not only a tough financial settlement, I want to make it clear that our argument has always but top-slicing, with a significant amount of money—some been that if we are going to decriminalise the licence fee, hundreds of millions of pounds—going off to fund the for which there are strong arguments, we need to do it roll-out of broadband around the country. In addition, as part of a debate in which we discuss the whole of S4C is, in the main, being paid for not by the Department charter renewal and the whole of the licence fee settlement 181 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 182 for the next several years. Otherwise the danger is that if only three noble Members, in order to maintain the we proceed too fast with just one element, like pulling status quo and perpetuate criminalisation of non-payment on a thread in a jumper, we will pull apart the whole of the TV licence for at least another two years—an jumper. We would have been perfectly happy with the eleventh-hour attempt to frustrate the clear will of this original amendment. Although the Government would House and of the country. have the power to introduce regulations decriminalising It should be noted that five of the votes in favour in the non-payment of the licence fee, they would not be the other place came from the ex-BBC chairman, Lord able to do so until 1 April 2017 which, as the Minister Grade, in whose name the amendment stood; the ex-BBC pointed out, will be past the time when the new charter “Play School” presenter, Baroness Benjamin; an ex-BBC for the BBC will have been agreed and the licence fee governor, Baroness Deech; the ex-BBC “EastEnders” will have been settled for a further period. actor, Lord Cashman; and BBC producer Viscount We would have been happy with that amendment, Colville. They all spoke in the debate and voted in but the Government have introduced a face-saving favour of the amendment. amendment, which says: “The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period of Chris Bryant: In referring to all those Members, the 3 months beginning with the date on which the review is completed, hon. Gentleman might also point out their slightly lay before both Houses of Parliament a report setting out the wider career paths. For example, Lord Grade was head Secretary of State’s response to the review”. of ITV and spent most of his career in broadcasting in We have no objection to the Government doing that. the commercial sector, so it is fascinating that the When we are the Government, we expect to do that. I commercial sector and the public sector agree. note that the Minister expects that Mr Perry will have completed his review by June or perhaps July—sometimes Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): these things slip. That means that by the end of this Order. I do not think it is fascinating; we are not here to year, if the motion is agreed, a Labour Government will debate Members of the other place. We are here to bring forward such a report. debate the Lords amendments so, Mr Bridgen, I require The vast majority of hon. Members are not like the you to desist from reminding us what happened in the hon. Member for Shipley—an ideologue, passionate other place, because we can read it, and to direct your about destroying the BBC licence fee and, to my mind, comments to the amendments before us. destroying the BBC and surrendering our future to commercial broadcasting in its entirety. The vast majority of Members in this House, even Government Members, Andrew Bridgen: Thank you for that guidance, Madam who have hearts beating as socialist hearts, even if they Deputy Speaker. I much appreciate it. However, I point do not yet know it, believe in the licence fee. Although out to the House that those five noble Members represent we all want to see an end to unnecessary criminalisation more than the majority by which the amendment was of non-payment, we want to make sure that the licence carried in the other place. fee is considered in its entirety when that is done. Having read the Hansard record of the various speeches Anything else— on the amendment in the upper House, as I am sure all hon. Members have, I found myself with a strong sense Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con) of déjà vu. There they were, all the same lines from the rose— multimillion-pound BBC spin machine that we heard when I first proposed the amendment—horror stories Chris Bryant: I was on my very last sentence. Normally, about huge changes to the BBC if decriminalisation hon. Members are clamouring for me to stop, but I see came in; losses of £200 million of revenue; the emotive that the hon. and learned Member is clamouring for me closure of all local radio stations and TV stations; and to continue. so on. We have heard it all before. I remind hon. Members that there was support for my amendment Sir Oliver Heald: Does the hon. Gentleman agree from across the entire political spectrum in this House. that in principle it is wrong for somebody to be sent to It was signed by 149 right hon. and hon. Members and prison for not paying the licence fee? had the support of many in the Government who were Chris Bryant: I believe in the licence fee. I would like unable to sign. to see decriminalisation. If we can achieve decriminalisation I draw the attention of the House to the comments of of non-payment of the licence fee in a way that does not Baroness Corston, who was mentioned by the shadow dismantle the rest of the licence fee, yes, I would agree Minister. She recognised the impact of delays to the with the hon. and learned Gentleman. However, in implementation of the decriminalisation of non-payment order to do that, one cannot simply send forward to of the TV licence. The longer that takes, the more Her Majesty legislation which suggests that the Government people will go to prison and the more people will be can introduce that decriminalisation in a few weeks’ criminalised. Every year of delay means that another time. We have to carry the amendment as tabled, 160,000 of our fellow citizens will be dragged up on substantially agreeing with the House of Lords, while criminal charges for non-payment of a £145.50 licence—in pretending to disagree. I am grateful that the hon. and effect, a poll tax. learned Gentleman passionately agrees with me. He still Baroness Corston said: has a beating socialist heart and will support the licence “I once met a woman who had been imprisoned for three fee, as we shall. months for failing to pay the £145.50 television licence fee and a £200 fine. If she could not afford the licence fee, surely she was Andrew Bridgen: I start by expressing my deep not going to be able to afford a £200 fine as well. During those disappointment that the amendment has been added to three months in prison she lost her tenancy and was unable to the Bill by the House of Lords, by a narrow majority of look after her children, who were taken into care. When she came 183 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 184 out of prison, she was told that she could not have local authority The avoidance rate for payment of the TV licence fee accommodation for a family because she did not have her children in Scotland is hardly different from that in England, with her, and when she went to social services she was told that despite the fact that we criminalise 160,000 to 180,000 of she could not have her children back because she did not have our citizens a year and imprison between 30 and 50, family accommodation.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 5 February 2014; Vol. 759, c. 800.] whereas Scotland prosecutes only some 30 people a year. Given the sparsity of population in Scotland and That is truly shocking. human behaviour being what it is, one might consider As I have previously stated in the House, around that there would be a greater chance of evading prosecution 50 people a year go to prison as a result of the legislation, in a remote part of Scotland than anywhere in England. a disproportionate number of whom are women—50%, I would suggest that there was possibly a higher evasion whereas women make up only 4% of the prison population. rate of the TV licence fee in Scotland prior to the However, speaker after speaker in the upper House, decriminalisation anyway. while noting the comments of Baroness Corston, decided Unfortunately, the BBC public relations machine seems that the spurious claims about a shortfall in BBC funding to have won the day in the upper House, so I now come took precedence. to amendment (a) in lieu, tabled in the name of the It is unfortunate that TV licensing enforcement in Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor of the Scotland was not brought up in the debate in the other Duchy of Lancaster, my right hon. Friend the Member place. I would like to correct that and remind the House for West Dorset (Mr Letwin). As he says, there is no that the Criminal Proceedings etc. (Reform) (Scotland) doubting the significant cross-party support for the Act 2007 introduced a regime whereby an emphasis was clauses relating to TV licensing during the earlier stages placed on alternatives to prosecution, such as fiscal of the Bill, and the firm commitments set out by the fines. The result was a fall in prosecutions from nearly Government must be honoured. I therefore support the 2,000 in 2006-07 to just 34 in 2012-13—a 98% reduction. amendment to ensure that the review of David Perry If the BBC PR machine is to be believed, one would QC, due in June 2015, to which I had the pleasure of think that that would result in a significant fall in giving evidence only last week, is promptly considered compliance with the licence fee. However, as Fergus by the Government of the day, and that the changes Reid, the spokesperson for TV Licensing in Scotland, that I very much hope come about are introduced with a said in 2013: clear timetable. “the average evasion rate remains at a low of just over five per Whatever future funding mechanism for the BBC is cent, meaning almost 95 per cent of homes are correctly licensed.” decided at the next charter review, I hope that criminalising more than 160,000 of our fellow citizens each year, an Sir Oliver Heald: Does my hon. Friend consider it estimated 75% of whom are women, will no longer be disproportionate to imprison somebody for non-payment part of it. I therefore urge the House to join me in of a relatively small debt? Does he agree that this needs opposing the Lords amendment and supporting the to be corrected, much as some of us love the licence fee? Government’s amendments in lieu.

Andrew Bridgen: Not only do the majority of Members Tom Brake: I will make a few short comments in of this House think that the measure is disproportionate; relation to the points that have been made in the debate. I honestly believe that the majority of people in the It is impossible to win with the hon. Member for country think that it is disproportionate. When I first Rhondda (Chris Bryant). If we do not make any changes proposed my amendment and canvassed support for it to the Bill, we are being dictatorial and steamrollering across the House, it was clear that a large number of things through. If we do make changes in response to Members did not initially think that it was a criminal the debate, we are being spineless. As a Minister, I am offence not to pay the TV licence fee. It is within our always in favour of listening, and if there are ways of power to correct this. In England and Wales, more improving a Bill, that is what I like to do—and that is people are imprisoned each year for the non-payment what we are doing today. of fines associated with TV licensing than are prosecuted for evasion in Scotland, with little, if any, difference in 2.15 pm the evasion rate. Andrew Bridgen: Does my right hon. Friend agree Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): To be that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is absolutely clear, people are not going to prison for the ideal Opposition spokesman? I hope he stays in refusing to pay the TV licence fee. The reality is that opposition for a long time. people are sent to prison for refusing to pay the penalty for not paying the fee in the first place. The former Tom Brake: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend on Solicitor-General has intervened a couple of times to that, and I am confident that the hon. Gentleman will suggest the opposite to that. stay on the Opposition Benches for a long time. However, I thank the hon. Gentleman for expressing his support Andrew Bridgen: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely in a roundabout way, and in a lengthier contribution right. People go to prison not for not paying the licence than mine on this measure. fee, but for not paying the fines. However, if someone I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North West has hit hard times and has no money and cannot afford Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) for providing us with a £145.50 licence fee, they are unlikely, as in the example the opportunity to debate TV licensing and enforcement cited by Baroness Corston, to be able to pay a £200 fine, today, a debate he initiated many months ago. I hear the which could result in a mother going to prison and her unhappiness that he has expressed, but I also heard him children being taken into care, with the consequent comment positively on the fact that there is a clear results for her family on release. commitment from any future Government, providing 185 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 186

[Tom Brake] Lords amendment 2 takes into account a recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory the Bill is passed, to come forward within three months Reform Committee to change the parliamentary procedure of the publication of the Perry review with an action for these regulations from negative to affirmative. This plan setting out the steps that they will take if they are will allow Parliament fully to scrutinise the regulations. in favour of decriminalisation. Lords amendment 3 removes a measure that would Lords amendment 38 disagreed to. have had the effect of allowing private hire vehicles to Amendments (a) and (b) made to Lords amendment 38. be used for leisure purposes when they were not being used for private hire purposes. After listening to concerns about this proposal during the Bill’s passage, the Clause 1 Government have decided that the best course of action is for this measure to be considered as part of the HEALTH AND SAFETY AT WORK: GENERAL DUTY OF package of measures recommended by the Law SELF-EMPLOYED PERSONS Commission to reform taxi and private hire vehicle Tom Brake: I beg to move, That this House agrees licensing. with Lords amendment 1. Lords amendments 5 to 17 seek to provide clarification and certainty in relation to the tenancy deposit protection Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): legislation in response to recent court cases. The With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendments address two issues. First, they make it Lords amendments 2 to 17. clear that, where appropriate, a letting agent’s contact Lords amendment 18, and amendments (a) to (g) details, instead of the landlord’s, may be provided to a thereto. tenant. That was always the intention of the original Lords amendment 19, and amendments (b), (e), (c) framework, and thus the measure has been made to and (d) thereto. apply retrospectively.However, to ensure fairness, provision Lords amendment 20. is also being made to prevent the reopening of out-of-court Lords amendment 21, and amendment (a) thereto. settlements or court cases that had been finally determined on this basis. Lords amendments 22 to 25. The second issue, which was raised by the recent Lords amendment 26, and amendments (a) and (b) Court of Appeal judgment in Charalambous v. Ng 2014, thereto. concerns tenancy deposits. The Court ruled that the Lords amendment 27, and amendments (a) to (k) tenancy deposit legislation should apply to landlords thereto. who received a tenancy deposit before the coming into Lords amendments 28 to 37 and 39 to 123. force of the tenancy deposit legislation in 2007, and that Tom Brake: It seems a long time since I was sitting they would therefore need to protect deposits if they opposite the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne wished to rely on the “no fault” ground for eviction, Central (Chi Onwurah) debating the Deregulation Bill, known as section 21. This was never the Government’s but we are back here today. The Government support intention. Our amendments therefore make it absolutely Lords amendments 1 to 37 and 39 to 123. I will also be clear that, although landlords affected by the judgment speaking to amendments tabled by hon. Members to will need to protect deposits if they wish to rely on Lords amendments 19, 21, 26 and 27, which the section 21, they will not be at risk of financial penalty Government will not be supporting for reasons that I should they fail to do so. will set out shortly. Lords amendments 18 to 26 protect tenants in the Lords amendments 1 and 2 relate to health and safety private rented sector from being evicted where they have and the self-employed. Lords amendment 1 addresses raised a legitimate complaint about the condition of concerns raised during the public consultation on draft their home and make the eviction process more regulations conducted by the Health and Safety Executive straightforward in appropriate cases. They also ensure during July and August 2014. Concerns were expressed that tenants are aware of their rights and responsibilities that the regulations as drafted could lead to some and those of the landlord. The hon. Member for self-employed persons who do pose a risk to the health Shipley (Philip Davies) has tabled amendments to these and safety and others falling exempt from the law. amendments, and I will come to those shortly. The Amendment 1 sets out the ways in which undertakings effect of the Government’s amendments is that landlords may be described in regulations made under section 3(2) in the private rented sector will not be able to evict a of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 to retain tenant merely because the tenant has asked them to duties on self-employed persons. Subsection (2A)(a) carry out a repair, provided that the local authority has provided for regulations to include descriptions of activities confirmed that such a repair is necessary to prevent a carried out by an undertaking where the duty on potential risk to the tenant’s health and safety. They the self-employed would remain in place, essentially ensure that tenants are always given at least two months’ providing for a list of high-risk activities. Importantly, notice before they have to move out of their home and subsection (2A)(b) ensures that the regulations can also make the eviction process more straightforward for include a general description covering any undertaking landlords in situations where the tenant should be evicted. the conduct of which may expose others to risks to their The amendments enable the Secretary of State to health and safety.The amendment means that the provision make regulations specifying the information to be contained in the Bill aligns more with Professor Ragnar Löfstedt’s in any eviction notice served under section 21 of the recommendation. The HSE will produce guidance targeted Housing Act 1988, and provide that an eviction notice at self-employed persons and others to assist with their cannot be served where a landlord has failed to comply understanding of the amendment. with their existing legal obligations relating to the condition 187 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 188 of the property, the health and safety of their tenants, Tom Brake: Even if the hon. Gentleman feels that the or the energy performance of the property. They also figure is rubbish and it is perhaps half that, 40,000 retaliatory require landlords to provide information to their tenants evictions per year is still a very large number. about their rights and responsibilities. As many Members will know, these amendments Philip Davies: Why are the Government basing their started as a private Member’s Bill in the name of my figures on an opinion poll commissioned by a campaigning hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), charity on this issue and ignoring their own figures whom I thank for all her work in bringing this to the from the English housing survey, which estimates that attention of the House. I also thank the Secretary of the number is about 6,000 a year? State for Business, Innovation and Skills; the Minister for Employment; and the Under-Secretary of State for Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend helpful intervention. He thinks that the figure is lower, the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams). Shelter at 6,000 evictions. I said 80,000, and then generously and Citizens Advice have also been heavily involved in halved it for him to 40,000. If it is indeed 6,000, then this process. that is 6,000 retaliatory evictions too many.His amendments Retaliatory eviction is wrong, and its continued practice would facilitate the process of retaliatory evictions, is unacceptable. No tenant should face eviction because which the Government are, instead, seeking to avoid. they have made a legitimate complaint to the landlord The amendments would extend the time within which about the condition of their home, and no decent a landlord must respond to a request for a repair from landlord would engage in the practice. However, a small 14 days to 20 working days. This Government believe number of rogue and unscrupulous landlords think it is that renting out a property is a business and that perfectly acceptable to evict a tenant for requesting a tenants should be able to expect a much swifter response repair. These important amendments introduce protection to a complaint than 20 working days—in other words, a for tenants against rogue and unscrupulous landlords, month—particularly where the problem is serious. To but they also contain provisions that will benefit landlords clarify, this time frame is only for responding to the and make it more straightforward to evict tenants in concern raised, not fixing the problem. There is a further legitimate circumstances. amendment to the effect that any complaint must be On the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for within the scope of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985. Shipley, I understand the intention behind some of However, that legislation is not the framework under them. However, I assure him that Lords amendments 18 which local authorities operate for the purposes of to 26 ensure that all landlords are still entitled to their inspecting a property and deciding whether there is a rights under section 8 of the Housing Act 1988, which health and safety risk to the tenant. Inspections are enables them to evict a tenant who does not pay rent, carried out under the Housing Act 2004 and involve goes to prison, or uses the house for illegal purposes. checking for the presence of 29 potential hazards in the Our fundamental aim is to prevent a very small minority home. of rogue landlords from evicting tenants in retaliation Amendment 5 would remove protection against for raising a legitimate complaint. Part of his proposals retaliatory eviction where a landlord intends to sell the would undermine this effort. property within six months. However, the proposed legislation already provides that it does not apply where, Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Will the Minister answer at the time when the section 21 eviction was served, the two questions? First, is the opposition to my amendments property was generally on the market for sale. unanimous across the coalition, or is it just the Liberal The next amendment would provide that protection Democrats who oppose them? Secondly, what estimate against retaliatory eviction does not apply where a have the Government made of the number of revenge landlord wants to move into or redevelop the dwelling, evictions that take place each year, because there is a or the dwelling is subject to a compulsory purchase great amount of discrepancy in the numbers? order, or the landlord needs vacant possession to comply with a legal duty to carry out works in the building. Tom Brake: On the number of revenge evictions, I Compulsory purchase orders are rarely used, but even will have to get back to the hon. Gentleman; I may get where they are, the acquiring authority would become inspiration in the next few minutes. On whether there the landlord and could terminate the lease under separate was coalition agreement on this issue, when the Department powers. for Communities and Local Government looked at the impact of his amendments, it was clear that, in some The final amendment would introduce a five-year cases, they would allow a landlord to make a retaliatory time limit on the life of the legislation or require that a eviction on the day after the landlord had completed a review shall be commissioned within three years of the repair. That would go completely against the intent of legislation coming into force. As the hon. Gentleman the provisions in terms of protecting tenants. It would will be aware, it is standard practice to evaluate legislation permit a landlord to evict a tenant as soon as repairs after a certain period, and we will of course do this. had been completed using a section 21 eviction notice. However, we do not necessarily believe that the issue of That is not in the spirit of preventing retaliatory evictions, retaliatory evictions will be resolved in five years, so we but merely delays them until after repairs are completed. do not want to limit the powers as they stand. On the number of revenge evictions, as the hon. Where a landlord wants to move back into a property Gentleman will probably know, the figure is estimated that they are renting out, the legislation will not prevent to be some 80,000 per year. The source of that figure them from doing so, provided that they follow the was a YouGov survey of 4,500 renters. normal process and deals with any repairs before a local authority becomes involved. The legislation contains Philip Davies: Rubbish! safeguards to ensure that a tenant cannot benefit from 189 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 190

[Tom Brake] At present, Londoners would be in breach of section 25 of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act making spurious or unfounded complaints. A complaint 1974 were they to use their residential premises as in itself will not be enough to trigger protection against temporary sleeping accommodation without planning retaliatory eviction. In all cases, the local authority will permission, because the Act stipulates that letting a have to confirm that a repair needs to be carried out residential property for less than 90 consecutive nights and that failure to do so would probably involve a is a material change of use and thus requires planning serious health and safety risk to the tenant. In addition, permission. Not obtaining such permission means risking the legislation makes it clear that a tenant cannot claim a potential fine of £20,000. protection against retaliatory eviction where they have The Government published a policy paper on the failed to treat the property in a tenant-like manner—in short-term use of residential property on 9 February. It other words, to take care of it, rather than to damage it takes into account the representations we received following wilfully and negligently—including by carrying out small the publication last year of the discussion document on jobs around the property. property conditions in the private rented sector, as well as our discussions with London local authorities, the 2.30 pm industry and Members of both Houses. I now turn to Lords amendments 27 to 30 on short-term Following that, the Government tabled a number of lets and the amendments tabled by the Opposition to amendments in the other place to update the existing Lords amendment 27. The Lords amendments relate to legislation and ensure that we provide appropriate freedom the short-term use of residential premises in London as for London residents, broadly in line with that enjoyed temporary sleeping accommodation. The Government by residents across the rest of the country. Alongside intend to remove the uncertainty for London residents the new freedoms, we have sought to provide important who wish to let their property on a short-term basis, safeguards to prevent the abuse of the reforms and, perhaps while they are away on holiday or during events crucially, to prevent any opportunity for commercial such as Wimbledon. letting on an ongoing or permanent basis, about which I am sure Labour Members are concerned. Mark Field: I hope to catch your eye later, Madame Deputy Speaker, but it is pretty clear that there is no Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I, too, uncertainty whatsoever. The regulations have been in hope to catch your eye in this debate, Madam Deputy place for 42 years for good reason, so to sweep them Speaker. The Minister is a London MP, so he knows the away as is now proposed would be rather unwise. I hope pressures on the residential housing stock in London. that the Minister will provide a little meat on the bones Have not London local authorities, across the parties, of exactly why the Government now wish to do so, made representations to stress that fact? For example, particularly given the strength of feeling among London Westminster alone loses about 500 residential units MPs on both sides of the House and in the Lords. every year to short-term lettings, because it is impossible to differentiate, in the way the Minister claims to do, Tom Brake: I will provide greater explanation in a few between the holiday let and the extension of what is minutes. I hope that it will satisfy my hon. Friend, but I effectively the hospitality industry. suspect that it may not. We will have to wait and see. One point is that this is an issue only in London. I am Tom Brake: The Government are clear that the proposals not aware of a huge number of problems associated are not about facilitating a process that will allow more with it outside London. Perhaps there are such problems, commercial letting on an ongoing or permanent basis; but they certainly have not been drawn to my attention. they are about restricting lets by individuals to a maximum The proposals will simply bring the approach in London of 90 days. I do not know whether the hon. Lady has into line with that in the rest of the country. ever used Airbnb or something of that nature in other parts of the country, where people let out their properties Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): on a short-term basis at the time of particular events, I did not quite follow the Minister’s argument. He such as the Liberal Democrat conference in Glasgow. accepted the fact that London is different and that there There is no suggestion that people are letting out properties is strong feeling about it in London, but he proceeded permanently. The Government do not want that to to say that the Government therefore want to make happen, which is why the restriction of 90 days has been London like the rest of the country. I am afraid that put in place. I will come on to the other safeguards in a that is a non sequitur. If there is a problem in London, moment. the Government must address it by accepting it and listening to the views of the local authorities and others Ms Buck: I will not intervene again, but may I ask in London who have clear experience of it and are about that particular point? The Minister is saying that saying that what the Government propose is wrong. there is not a problem, but Westminster alone has had to take 7,362 cases against quasi-commercial short-term Tom Brake: I do not know whether the right hon. lettings in the past 15 years even under the existing Gentleman was paraphrasing me. What I should have said regulations. The key point is that such enforcement will is that I am hearing the concerns about London expressed be far harder when the Government relax the rules, as in this debate, but there are no restrictions of such a they intend to do. nature and I am not aware of its causing a significant issue outside London. I will come on to explain why the Tom Brake: The hon. Lady will hear what I have to Government support the proposals and why we believe say about enforcement notices, and she may want to that the safeguards, which I am sure he wants, are pick that up among the points she will make should she sufficient to deal with any concerns of London MPs. catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker. 191 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 192

The internet has created new opportunities for residents Tom Brake: Clearly there is a localism aspect to the who want to enter into what has become known as the proposal. If, as some Opposition Members are saying, sharing economy, a catch-all term encompassing all there is a significant issue in Westminster and places like asset owners who wish to share their asset with others in it, I am sure that Westminster city council will present a exchange for a fee. As a result, it is now easier than ever well-argued case to the Secretary of State to say why it for residents to rent out their property to supplement believes that there should be an exemption in a particular their incomes and offer consumers new experiences. A location. I am sure that the Secretary of State would cursory look at some of the websites facilitating such consider such an approach carefully. lettings reveals that thousands of London properties The Government believe that the Lords amendments and rooms are available for short-term use, all of which provide appropriate flexibility for Londoners alongside potentially violate the current section 25. sufficient safeguards. The 90-night limit, coupled with Lords amendments 27 to 30 add additional safeguards the requirement for hosts to be liable for council tax, in relation to the short-term use of London properties means that we will not create new opportunities for without planning permission in three ways. First, they residential properties to be used as temporary sleeping stipulate that a property can be used as temporary accommodation on a permanent basis without planning sleeping accommodation only for a maximum of 90 nights permission. The relaxation of section 25 will allow per calendar year. That will ensure that the reforms properties to be used more efficiently when residents are provide residents with greater flexibility, but it will not away, and it should not remove properties from the create opportunities for the short-term letting of properties housing stock that is available to Londoners and their on a permanent basis. Secondly, they provide that the families. In the Government’s opinion, the safeguards, person providing the temporary sleeping accommodation coupled with the ability to exempt areas with the consent must be liable for council tax. That requirement means of the Secretary of State, are sufficient to protect Londoners that a property is used as a residence, because a property against any potential abuse of the relaxation of section 25. used as a hotel or hostel would be liable for business The Opposition amendments to Lords amendment 27 rates. Combined with the 90-night per calendar year principally seek to create the additional condition that limit, we believe that this provides an appropriate safeguard residential premises can be used as temporary sleeping against short-term letting on an ongoing or permanent accommodation without planning permission provided basis. Thirdly, they allow either the Secretary of State or that the premises are the principal residence in London the relevant planning authority with the Secretary of of the owner. They would require the provider of temporary State’s consent to direct, where there is a strong amenity sleeping accommodation to notify the local planning case for doing so, that the relaxation of section 25 does authority in advance of every occasion on which they not apply to certain properties in certain areas. I hope intended to use their property in this way on a short-term that addresses the hon. Lady’s concerns. basis. I wonder whether any assessment has been made of the impact of that proposal on the existing London market, with regard to people who are already in breach Mark Field: Let us try to dig a little into precisely of the law, and of the burden on local authorities in how big that concession is. Would the Minister allow handing all the advance requests. The Opposition local authorities, particularly those in central London, amendments would also remove the requirement for the to exempt themselves from the exemptions in the entirety local planning authority to seek the consent of the of their area—in other words, to tie themselves again to Secretary of State to direct that the new flexibility does the 1973 Act—or is he suggesting that the concession not apply to particular residential premises or premises would apply only to very limited stress areas? in particular areas. The Government believe that the Opposition Tom Brake: I am sure that my hon. Friend was amendments seek to remedy issues that have already listening carefully. I said that the Secretary of State been addressed by the amendments the Government would have to give consent. The Government are not made in the other place. They would place additional proposing that local authorities should be allowed to burdens on London residents that are not experienced decide unilaterally which areas are in and which are out. by residents in other parts of the country, and they run We want to facilitate something that is already clearly counter to the spirit of the legislation as a deregulatory happening on a large scale in London—as far as I am Bill. aware, it happens elsewhere in the country without We know that short-term letting is already taking significant problems—to give individuals the flexibility place in London, but the current legislation has led to to allow their properties to be rented on a short-term confusion and uncertainty for potential hosts. The basis if there is an event, such as Wimbledon, during Government amendments will provide clarity and give which they want to absent themselves. London residents the confidence that they can use their property as temporary sleeping accommodation within Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Minister the law, without the disproportionate bureaucracy of mentions Wimbledon and I have no doubt that he is applying for planning permission. For those reasons, I also thinking about things such as holiday lets. How ask the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central many prosecutions have there been in respect of Wimbledon not to press the Opposition amendments. and holiday lets? The proposal is just about commercial I will finish fairly soon, Madam Deputy Speaker, but lets. Is it not impossible to regulate such things in the I am afraid that the amendments touch on a wide range way the Government intend? It is over-regulation to say of issues. Lords amendments 31 and 32 change the that councils must apply for a waiver. Why does he not parliamentary approval procedure for the establishment let localism take charge and allow local authorities of urban development areas and urban development decide for themselves? corporations. They contain a sunset provision with an 193 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 194

[Tom Brake] the Council for Licensed Conveyancers. The CLC can authorise a body or person only if they are licensed to expiry date of 31 March 2016. On expiry, the process to provide conveyancing services. None of the other legal establish any further urban development areas and services-approved regulators have that restriction. corporations will revert to the existing affirmative procedure. Lords amendment 46 amends sections 56A, 57 and These amendments are intended to help us quickly to 65LA of the National Health Service Act 2006, which establish the urban development corporation for Ebbsfleet are concerned with the transfer of property liabilities —a subject that was debated in the House recently. and staff between NHS bodies. The changes simply Lords amendment 33 inserts new section 220A into clarify the provisions in the existing legislation to ensure the Housing Act 1996, which will give the Secretary of that it can be used in a seamless and efficient way. They State the power to provide financial assistance when do not create new policy. The amendment is needed to advice is provided in connection with the law concerning remove the uncertainty over the operation of the powers park homes. Financial assistance may be provided when of NHS foundation trusts to acquire another NHS an organisation provides information, training or advice, foundation trust or NHS trust using section 56A, and or a dispute resolution service concerning residential to correct the omission of key powers with respect to licences in England. Where appropriate, the money may the transfer of staff and criminal liabilities. It will also be recovered from the recipient. There are similar powers extend Monitor’s power to transfer the property and to provide funding to organisations that provide legal liabilities, including criminal liabilities, of an NHS advice on residential tenancies. The amendment simply foundation trust that is dissolved following special provides the Secretary of State with a similar funding administration. power in respect of residential licences. Using the procedure in section 56A is the only way in Lords amendments 34 and 82 will enable and empower which an NHS foundation trust can acquire another NHS ambulance services to respond to medical emergencies foundation trust. However, section 56A is uncertain quickly and effectively. There are statutory provisions and open to interpretation. Although it sets out the that exempt vehicles from various rules contained in process to be followed when an acquisition is contemplated, road traffic legislation when they are being used by the it does not set out its terms. Further, it does not explain emergency services for fire, police and ambulance purposes. what happens to the acquired trust property and liabilities, However, modern practices and technology have outgrown or to third-party rights and obligations. The uncertainty the current law, which mainly uses the term “ambulance”. that that creates means that NHS foundation trusts are NHS ambulance services now use fast response units unlikely to utilise the current provision for fear of legal including cars and motorbikes to provide quick responses challenges. Correcting that position will have an impact to the most critically ill patients, where time is of the on measures to secure financial and clinical sustainability essence. They also use larger vehicles to transport equipment within the NHS. It is essential that NHS foundation to major incidents to ensure that clinicians are properly trusts have the confidence to use section 56A. equipped. Such responses provide a vital part of NHS Lords amendment 46 will make it clear that Monitor’s emergency health care. granting of an application is conclusive proof that the property and liabilities of the acquired NHS trust or 2.45 pm NHS foundation trust, including third-party property The definition of “ambulance” and “ambulance rights, are transferred to the acquiring foundation trust. purposes” in a recent case concerning the use of blue Accordingly, subsection (3) of the new clause will insert lights and sirens was limited to vehicles that have a new section 56AA into the 2006 Act to provide for a primary use of conveying the sick and disabled, and did direct transfer of property and liabilities by operation not include other vehicles such as motorbikes used by of law. The grant of the application will be conclusive paramedics. That means that the fast response units proof that the acquired trust is dissolved and, in the that are used by NHS ambulance services to be the first case of an acquired NHS trust, the establishment order on the scene of crises ranging from road traffic accidents revoked. to cardiac arrests, and that are therefore among the Very nearly finally, Lords amendments 47 and 48 will fastest travelling vehicles, can no longer rely on the allow records to be available other than in the form of a exemptions. Lords amendments 34 and 82 will extend certificate. Many family historians and genealogists do the stated exemptions to cover all fast response units not need a certificate, but merely the information contained that are dispatched by the national health service, whether within it. Providing alternative formats will make it they are vehicles that are owned or leased by an NHS cheaper and quicker to obtain that information. The ambulance service or private vehicles. amendments would provide the power to lay regulations Lords amendments 35 to 37 will permit motor racing to define how a person may access birth, death, marriage on closed public roads. Motor sport governing bodies and civil partnership records, the type of product that in England and Wales, in conjunction with local authorities, can be issued, and the fee payable. The regulations will be able to authorise motor races on roads that are could also introduce a legal distinction regarding the closed for the purpose. Certain traffic regulations, such age of birth, death, marriage and civil partnership as those on speed limits and traffic signs, may be records. That will follow the precedent set in Scotland disapplied while the road is closed. Motor racing on and Northern Ireland where records are considered roads will also be permitted in Scotland as long as the historical at 100, 75 and 50 years for births, marriages event is authorised by regulation and held in accordance and deaths respectively. with any conditions that are imposed. Lords amendments 102 to 108 relate to sections 86 Lords amendments 41 to 43 and 109 will remove a and 87 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and restriction in the Administration of Justice Act 1985 Learning Act 2009. They make adjustments to the and the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 that affects transfer of duties under those sections to secure the 195 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 196 provision of facilities for education and training, so that unnecessary. Concessions were won in the House of those duties are appropriate to and recognise the wider Lords and improvements made to the Bill generally remit and discretion of the Secretary of State. That is in without any support from the Liberal Democrats in contrast to the current wording, which was appropriate either House. They argue that they are a moderating to the chief executive whose role as a creature of statute influence that improves the actions of the Government, needed to be more closely specified. but the Bill shows that they have failed in that respect. Finally, Lords amendments 121 to 123 would remove Amendment 10 is a welcome U-turn from the further redundant pieces of legislation from the statute Government on the proposal to let anyone behind the book. All other Lords amendments are either consequential wheels of a minicab. For the past year Labour has on other amendments, or they are minor and technical opposed the Government’s proposals to reform minicab in nature or seek to provide clarity. I urge the House to law because we believe that they will put passengers at accept Lords amendments 1 to 37, and 39 to 123, and to risk. Taxi and private hire vehicle regulation is complex, reject the amendments to the Lords amendments. and we recognise the arguments that it is outdated. Nevertheless, these reforms are not the right ones. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Thank you, Minister. That was quite a few “Finallys.” The regulation and licensing of types of vehicles and their drivers is undertaken by local authorities across England and Wales, except in London. In 2011 the Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): The Opposition Department for Transport requested the Law Commission welcome many of the Lords amendments. It has been to undertake a comprehensive review of taxi and minicab an 18-month process to bring the Bill to this stage, and law, aiming to modernise and simplify it. The Government it has been much improved by the scrutiny brought to delayed the publication of the Law Commission’s report, bear not only by my hon. Friend the Member for and instead proposed three amendments to the Bill on Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) and other minicab regulation in March 2013, seeking to meet the hon. Members who had the pleasure of serving on the so-called red tape challenge to scrap legislation. The Bill Committee opposite the Minister, but in the other informal consultation that the Government claimed to place where a great deal of cross-party and constructive have carried out was not public but apparently sent work was done. This will not be a case study in how to privately by a civil servant to a limited number of select make laws—much of it is ill considered and there has bodies who were given just 10 days to respond on such been a lack of consultation about many of the proposals— an important issue. That inadequate consultation process but it may in future become a case study for how was strongly criticised by those involved and—more Members of the House can work together despite the importantly—all those who were not involved, including Government, and particularly with the support of Members local authorities and safety campaigners. No impact in the other place, to make better law. assessment for the reforms has ever been produced. We welcome Lords amendments 1 and 2. The changes will certainly improve clause 1 although we still believe In May 2013 after the local elections the Government that it is unnecessary, ineffective and confusing. We allowed the Law Commission to publish its proposals have opposed the clause in all its guises from the very for reform, which included a new national framework beginning. It is clear that this is an ideologically driven of safety and standards enforced at local level. Many attack on health and safety and will have a negligible organisations, including the National Private Hire impact on the self-employed—those who the Government Association, Unite, the National Association of Licensing say they will help. We think that the clause could create and Enforcement Officers, the National Taxi Association, confusion where there has been clarity in the law for the Institute of Licensing Officers and the Local more than 40 years, and at no stage was any real Government Association stated that the Government’s evidence brought forward to support any of the proposed proposals would undermine the Law Commission’s reforms, benefits of the changes. result in further complications in the law rather than less red tape, and put passengers at risk. We have heard how some small businesses and self- employed people may benefit, but that will clearly be at The most controversial proposal was to enable people the cost of creating confusion for millions of self-employed who do not hold a private hire vehicle licence to drive people in a variety of sectors and in some dangerous one when it is “off duty”. Safety campaigners, including occupations. That contributes to a narrative that health the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, Rape Crisis and Women’s and safety is inherently a bad thing, rather than something Aid, police and crime commissioners of all parties, and that makes our economy more competitive and a safer councillors, joined Labour to warn that the measure place to work. I shall be part of work around the threatened to increase the number of unlicensed drivers country led by the GMB and other trade unions—it is pretending to be legitimate, as enforcement against the international workers memorial day in a few weeks’ illegal use of licensed vehicles will be almost impossible. time, and we will recognise the huge progress we have The provision also threatens to put vulnerable people made in this country to keep people safe at work. I such as women and young girls at increased risk from regret that the Government are now seeking to undermine rogue taxi and minicab drivers. that progress. The Government eventually produced a form of impact I will not repeat the lengthy arguments made by my assessment—although clearly it was not compelling to hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne hon. Friends in either House—on 1 October 2014. It Central in Committee, or those made by Lord McKenzie was signed by Baroness Kramer and confirmed that of Luton in the other place, but I will say that this letting anyone drive a minicab clause—and indeed the Bill as a whole—has benefited from scrutiny, even though we believe it is largely “could lead to an increase in illegal use of licensed vehicles.” 197 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 198

[Andy Sawford] about Oxfordshire. How do these proposals, particularly those in clauses 10 and 11, relate to that promise to join In respect of private hire vehicles and taxis the Bill has up safeguarding? I want to quote an old friend of mine been a complete mess. We are pleased that the Government and a very respected figure in local government, Councillor U-turned on the proposal and that today they have Ann Lucas, the chair of the Local Government finally dropped it. Association’s Safer and Stronger Communities Board. Like safety campaigners, the National Union of Students She has campaigned to keep women and girls safe from and others, we are still concerned about clauses 10 and violence, and she has stated: 11. Clause 10 will end mandatory annual licensing “Keeping children safe is our top priority and a responsibility checks, enabling minicab operators to subcontract bookings councils take extremely seriously.It is imperative that the Government to firms in other areas, which I think is worrying. Some withdraws these plans so councils can continue to fully check 80% of women polled by the LGA said that they would everyone getting behind the wheel of a taxi or private hire vehicle be concerned if they booked a journey with one firm to ensure vulnerable children are kept as safe as possible.” and another company turned up. I completely understand We are pleased to see the back of this provision today, that. but we are disappointed that the Government have not fully listened to the concerns that have been raised. Tom Brake: The alternative is that when the vulnerable women the hon. Gentleman refers to call a taxi firm, if it is not able to subcontract the fare it will simply say 3pm “We cannot take your job”. Is that better? I want to turn now to the amendments relating to housing. This is why I have been asked to respond to the Andy Sawford: The taxi and private hire vehicle debate today. I pay tribute to the work that has been marketplace is increasingly competitive, and users of done on the Bill by my hon. Friend the Member for those vehicles are well used to looking—usually on a Newcastle upon Tyne Central. It is these amendments smartphone or some other device—for another company that have provoked particular interest. We have already to use. Firms often recommend other firms and companies, heard concern being expressed about short-term lets. which provides some assurance to someone who has The issue has generated considerable controversy since booked a taxi—[Interruption.] The Minister should it was proposed that there should be some relaxation of listen because it is a shame that having dropped some of the London provisions, but the Government have also the proposals he is not listening to the concerns of focused attention on what is now happening in the safety campaigners. Eight out of 10 women surveyed market and why the status quo cannot be sustained. said that they would not feel safe getting into a taxi Currently, the letting of residential accommodation for from a company that they had not booked or contacted. temporary sleeping accommodation in London for a I completely understand that and am surprised that the period of less than 90 consecutive nights constitutes a Minister cannot. change of use, for which planning permission is required. Notwithstanding the possibility of a fine of up to Tom Brake: Will the hon. Gentleman give way again? £20,000 for failure to secure permission, short-term letting is extensively carried on without permission Andy Sawford: The Minister did speak for 38 minutes, being available or given. but I will give way. We have covered in earlier debates the problems that can arise in this area, and the issue is also dealt with in Tom Brake: I also took some interventions. Will the the very welcome briefing that we have received from hon. Gentleman clarify whether all those private hire London Councils, which has done excellent work to companies are licensed and subject to security vetting? highlight the fact that this is a particular issue for London. The loss of residential accommodation to the Andy Sawford: The Opposition think it is important lucrative short-let market has an impact on the availability that local authorities take seriously their responsibility of accommodation in central London, which is already to license private hire vehicles, and we are not seeking to under pressure. Properties entering the short-let market undermine the existing framework that provides assurance in this way can increase problems of noise and antisocial to people who are booking taxis and private hire companies, behaviour, as well as leading to a loss of community as clauses 10 and 11 will. identity, increased crime and fire safety risks and significant Safety concerns have been raised considerably since challenges relating to continual enforcement. the inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, We know that other cities around the world are which concluded that one of the common threads running experiencing similar problems, so why are cities such as through child sexual exploitation across England has Amsterdam and Berlin taking action in this area while been the prominent role of taxi drivers in being linked our Government fail to recognise the importance of the to children who were abused. The author of the report, issue for this part of our country? Westminster city Alexis Jay OBE, has warned against any further deregulation council estimates that at least 3,000 properties in in that area. Given that the Government accepted the the borough are being used for short-term letting recommendations of that inquiry, we are surprised that accommodation, and there has apparently been a rise of the Minister has not listened to the concerns that are 37% in just three months in Camden. Members should out there. recognise that these are very real problems that afflict The Home Secretary has promised a joined-up some areas particularly deeply. The issue has been raised safeguarding approach in response to Rotherham, and not only by the Opposition; I know that some Government we have now heard about cases elsewhere in the country, Members wish to comment on it as well, as it affects all including the disturbing report that came out last week parts of London. 199 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 200

There is clearly a market for short-term letting activity, because many of the London boroughs in question and business opportunities have been created, particularly have had some of the biggest council cuts in England via the internet. It was noted in the other place that this under this Government. is very different from the situation in the 1970s. According to the Government’s own figures, thousands of London Our amendments cover four areas. First, there must properties and rooms are currently being advertised for be provision in regulations for those letting properties short-term lets, each of which is potentially in breach of on a short-term basis to have an obligation to notify the the law. That is an untenable situation. Of course we local authority. That is not a prescriptive amendment. support people who want to rent out their home when Secondly, the concept is that short-term letting should they go on holiday or want to make a bit of extra be allowed when it involves someone’s home. It appears money. We understand that some people want to take that the Government are seeking to define that by a the opportunity to do that. However, any changes in the liability to council tax, but we think that that is inadequate. provisions must ensure that there is a clear distinction Would not a liability to council tax arise for somebody between those who wish to rent out their homes infrequently letting residential property on a commercial basis—for and those who want to turn them into a short-let example, between tenancies? Limiting the relaxation to business. There is a critical difference between them. someone’s principal residence in London would better target the deregulations. That is the reason for our We are worried about the lack of consultation on amendment on that point. these proposals, and the results from the recent survey undertaken by London Councils show that the move is Thirdly, we welcome the provision that the Government not really what many London local authorities want. are seeking to make for local authorities to disapply the They are the organisations closest to the issue, and 93% regulation for certain properties or areas, but we oppose of the boroughs opposed the Government’s proposals this right being subject to the consent of the Secretary to remove the requirement for planning permission for of State. As I have said, the Government’s proposal is short-term lettings in London, 83% of them would not not a localist move. Finally, there is the issue of enforcement, support the Government’s proposals even if the boroughs and we believe that a proportionate system can and were able to apply exemptions in specified premises or should be put in place. The amendments are designed areas, and 71% of them believed that the removal of the not to undermine the Government’s position but to requirement for planning permission would have a negative strengthen the safeguards, and I hope that, even at the impact on the London economy as a whole. eleventh hour, the Government will be able to support them. The Government released their policy document on short-term lets prior to the Report stage in the Lords. It I have three short “finallys”, Madam Deputy Speaker. set out their vision of how they would operate. The On tenancy deposits, Labour pushed for these amendments document stated that a short-term let may not exceed in the House of Lords and we are therefore delighted 90 days in a calendar year, that such a let may apply to a that the Government have seen sense and tabled their property only where the owner is liable to pay council amendment, which implements Labour’s proposals. On tax, and that the local planning authority and the Ebbsfleet, as we made clear in the other place, we remain Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government unconvinced that the negative procedure accompanied should be able to issue a direction to exempt a particular by a statutory duty to consult is the appropriate procedure area or premises. Unless our amendments are accepted, for establishing an urban development corporation. I however, it will not be a question of the local authority was personally involved as a local councillor in north and the Secretary of State being able to do that. Rather, Kent in the late 1990s and the early 2000s when we were it will simply be conditional on the Secretary of State trying to get Ebbsfleet off the ground, having successfully giving his support. There is no localism involved at the brought Bluewater to the area to help with the regeneration, moment. This is another example of the Secretary of and I greatly regret that it has taken the Government so State wanting to meddle in a decision that should long to take these proposals forward. They have effectively rightly be determined at local level. wasted five years. We do not intend to stand in their way In the other place, Lord McKenzie of Luton won the on this technical question of how UDCs should be support of Baroness Hanham, Baroness Gardner of created. Parkes and Lord Tope to come up with a package of We welcome the Government’s change of heart on measures that, building on the Government amendments, tackling retaliatory eviction. They had previously suggested would enable home owners who wished to let their that our amendment to the Consumer Rights Bill in the homes on a short- term basis to do so unless there was House of Lords to protect tenants against retaliatory detriment to the amenity of the locality, and to do so eviction was unnecessary. We believe that it was absolutely within a system in which there was proper notification necessary, however, whether it would affect 6,000, 40,000 to local authorities and in which enforcement was enabled. or 80,000 people. These amendments give much-needed The Minister’s argument that such an arrangement protection to tenants, as landlords will no longer be able would be burdensome shows that he does not really to evict them in response to a valid complaint about understand that, in this day and age, technology is a their home. Tenants will no longer have to choose great enabler. between living in poor conditions or losing their home. Local authorities should rightly take the lead on Labour would go much further to get a fairer deal for these matters, rather than the Secretary of State, and private renters by legislating for three-year tenancies, by they are particularly concerned about this. We have ending excessive rent increases by putting a ceiling on heard the evidence from London Councils. I am sure rent increases across the three-year tenancy and, crucially, that they can be relied on to enable people to report the by banning rip-off letting agents’ fees for tenants. fact that they are letting their home on a short-term Nevertheless, we are happy to support the Government’s basis in a way that will not prove too costly, not least proposals today. I urge the Minister, at the final stage of 201 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 202 this 18-month process, to listen to the many hon. Members lets. That is three months in which people can come and who have direct personal experience of the issue of reside in London completely under the security radar. short lets, and to have a change of heart. The provisions contain no prior notification process, so local authorities would be literally clueless about who Mark Field: Sensible, pragmatic regulations exempting was letting their property on a short-term basis and for the Greater London area from a short-lets free-for-all how long. are, as we know, under acute threat. I appreciate that Of course, a question was asked on this subject in the Minister has to put his ministerial duties at the another place to which we did not get a proper answer, forefront today, but he will know that his mentor, so I will ask it again of the Minister. We have been told the noble Lord Tope, was one of the leading lights in by the Metropolitan police that they rely heavily on the House of Lords in trying to get a more sensible and article 5 of the Immigration (Hotel Records) Order 1972, pragmatic approach towards the issue. I hope that even both in proactive intelligence-led activity and in retrospective at this 11th hour we can have some comfort on an issue investigations, but that that power would be superseded about which a number of London MPs on both sides of by unchecked short-term letting. What assurances or the House feel strongly. safeguards have the Government sought from the police It is recognised that our capital city is a place of and Home Office that the legislation will not inadvertently particular hyper-mobility and hyper-diversity, where housing create a grey area that can be exploited? shortage is a perennial long-term problem. That lies at I fear that this will all end in tears, and I regret that. the heart of the regulations, which have now been in Even at this late stage I ask the Government carefully to place for more than four decades. Unquestionably, the assess the impact the changes to short lets will have and world has changed since 1973, but the big new idea to consider some more robust safeguards. At the very behind the so-called sharing economy is being vigorously least, I want to see owners having to notify the local promoted through ferocious lobbying by commercial authority of a short let and its length. Councils believe interests whose business model requires the sweeping that they can set up an online notification system pretty away of these long-standing public interest safeguards. easily, but that without such a system controlling short-term The creation of a new trade body, the so-called lets would be utterly impossible. I would also ask that Sharing Economy UK, is essentially a front for that the premises concerned must be the principal London commercial campaign. Frankly, it is akin to setting up a residence of the owner offering the let. More importantly trade body of payday lenders to dictate financial services still, councils should also be able to request that the policy. I am sorry that the wool is being pulled over the Government provide local exemptions to the provisions Minister’s eyes as these self-professed independent voices when there is a strong amenity case for doing so. I know dictate a commercially advantageous landscape. Meanwhile, that proposals were made in the other place and I regret scant regard is being paid to the interests of residents, that more thought has not been given to that practical particularly in central London. If this was really all safeguard. I hope that the Minister will give some about allowing home owners to undertake short-term thought to it, even at this late stage. holiday housing swaps, as the Government suggest, it is I should also like a provision that states that the total highly unlikely that a local authority would even be period of short lets in any one calendar year for a aware of such a brief arrangement and no enforcement specific property should be no more than 30 days, as action should be taken against the owner in such instances, that should be sufficient for a bona fide residential as it would clearly be disproportionate. property owner seeking the flexibility that many of us Enforcement action in the City of Westminster is, at would like in this so-called sharing economy. least, reserved for those situations in which the council 3.15 pm becomes aware that properties are being let on a short-term If the Government are unwilling to see sense, I hope basis all year round. The number of such properties is that at the very least we will get an assurance today that significant, as the hon. Member for Westminster North if the effects of the operation of these changes over the (Ms Buck) pointed out, and the impact of this activity next 12 months prove to be as detrimental to the is hugely detrimental in our locality, leading to a diminution permanent resident population as many in central London of housing stock, reduced security, increased antisocial fear, the Minister will review the situation with some behaviour, a breakdown in community cohesion and urgency. I regret that it has come to this, because some giving a green light to what can, at its worst, be fraudulent practical discussions have taken place and one would activity. Without the current safeguards, many social have rather hoped that amendments would have been housing properties, for instance, are likely to be sub-let made in the other place. The Government appear to given how lucrative the short-stay market can become have been wowed by the whole idea of a sharing economy in central London. in developing many of the provisions, many of which I I have spoken in the House about all these concerns wholly support, and that has meant that this has become before as the Bill has gently wended its way towards the a Christmas tree of a Bill, particularly as regards short statute book, so I shall not go into the specific detail lets. It has been suggested that we can simply throw out again. However, I want to raise two further issues. First, with the bathwater something that has worked for the flats in blocks in which short-term letting is taking place past 40 years. I speak with less knowledge and authority might find that the insurance policy of the entire building than many on the Opposition Benches, but perhaps our becomes invalid. Secondly, and most worryingly in many housing problems, concerns and constraints in this capital ways given the geopolitical problems we face, which are city are more acute today than they have ever been in particularly acute here in London, national security the past four decades. In many ways, if we had not concerns have been raised by the Metropolitan police already had the 1973 order, we would perhaps be looking about the absence of checks on those who can live in to impose it today, rather than enacting this deregulatory central London for up to 90 days a year through short-term measure. 203 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 204

I hope that the Minister will pay serious attention not years’ worth of its target housing supply at a time of just to what I have said but, more importantly, to what acute housing shortage. It has also produced evidence we will hear later in this debate and to the contributions that demonstrates that the kinds of rents that are being made in the other place by members of all political charged for properties ranging from rooms to whole parties. As a London MP, he will know that these houses are so much more than the going rate for a problems are becoming increasingly acute. Carshalton shorthold private tenancy, let alone that for a social and Wallington is a very different place today from 20, letting, that it would not be sensible financially for a let alone 40, years ago. Short-term lets will be a much homeowner not to get into the sector. If we look at the bigger issue for him in the years to come if we do not websites advertising those short-term lets, we will see have some safeguards along the lines I have suggested. that variance for ourselves. Westminster city council last did a sustained piece of work on this issue a few Ms Buck: I, too, rise to speak strongly in support of years ago—I suspect that the outcome would be far amendments (a) to (k) to Lords amendment 27, tabled starker today—and it found an average difference of by my hon. Friends on the Front Bench, and to reinforce 273% between short-term let rents and longer-term the message we have just heard from the hon. Member rentals. for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field). I The irony of Westminster city council making concur with every word. representations on the impact of market rents and the I shall be relatively brief, because we have rehearsed loss of affordable housing units is not entirely lost on these arguments on Report. I was also able to have a me. None the less, I am happy to get together with it on debate in Westminster Hall on exactly the same subject, the critical issue of the loss of residential housing stock, and of course there were debates in the other place. which must be addressed. The Minister has previously However, let me reinforce a few points. The central spoken in the same debates as me and professed himself point is that the spirit behind the amendments represents to be concerned about affordable housing and the housing cross-party consensus in inner London. Obviously, supply in London. I do not understand why the we are now seeing cross-party consensus from the Government are turning their face against the cross-party representatives of the London borough of Westminster, consensus that the hospitality industry is, in effect, but the local authorities that have responded to the leaching into the residential housing stock in London. Government’s consultation include Haringey, Enfield, The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster Camden, Westminster, Newham, Redbridge, Lambeth and I have also previously raised the issue of the impact and the City of London, which all opposed the proposal. on residents. I will not rehearse all the arguments, but I know that hon. Members and peers with support from last summer I conducted a survey on people’s perceptions other local authorities have also spoken in favour of of the impact of short lets on Maida Vale, Bayswater, strong safeguards. Queensway, north Marylebone and parts of St John’s Those local authorities, their representatives and Wood, which are the front-line areas. There were a Members of Parliament from all parties feel a clear litany of concerns and complaints about the lack of sense of the loss of protection for residential communities security in residential blocks with a high level of short-term that this deregulation will involve. It is critical that a lets, the impossibility of knowing who is coming and good Government should respond to the needs of localism going, and serious problems of management. and understand that central London in particular, like Short-term visitors tend, not necessarily through any rural communities and the seaside towns, has distinctive fault of their own, to treat their accommodation like needs and requirements that must be protected. We are hotels, but hotels spend a lot of money on looking after arguing today that there are pockets in communities in their properties whereas that is not necessarily the case central London in particular—and no doubt in other with short lets. There are reports of damage to security areas, such as the constituency of my right hon. systems, much greater wear and tear on communal Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich areas and a higher level of anti-social behaviour. That is (Mr Raynsford)—where the pressure from the commercial not necessarily because the people are themselves anti-social, letting sector is becoming so intense that it is seriously but they come to London to enjoy themselves and to impeding the quality of life of a number of residents. party and have a good time, so there is more rubbish As the hon. Member for Cities of London and and noise nuisance. Westminster has said, we are concerned about the loss That is having a negative impact not just on those of residential stock. Westminster city council has produced neighbours who in some cases find themselves stranded very strong evidence to support its argument. It has in residential blocks that are now almost entirely turned dealt with more than 7,000 enforcement cases so far and over to short let; it is also a cost to the public purse. it is very important to stress that those are not enforcements Local authorities have to spend a considerable amount against people letting out a room in their home for of time and effort enforcing against antisocial behaviour Wimbledon fortnight. If those were the types of and higher levels of rubbish and noise nuisance. One of enforcements taking place, the Minister would be able the Westminster wards has had to spend its budget on to point to evidence of an innocent homeowner being additional enforcement officers at a time when the local enforced and fined for a casual holiday letting, but the authority has cut more than £500,000 from its children’s Minister is not able to do that because I do not think for services budget—that happened only last week—and a second that that is what local authorities are doing. plans to, in effect, halve its youth service. I know what I What we are seeing is the sustained movement of the would rather spend public money on. I do not want it commercial letting sector into residential communities. spent on chasing the hospitality industry for nuisance in Westminster city council estimates that about 500 units a residential block; I would rather spend it on protecting of accommodation a year are lost to the housing supply. our children and youth services. The impact on residential In fact, it has so far lost the equivalent of about seven communities is a real problem. 205 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 206

[Ms Buck] divide the House on mine, in order to protect time for Members across the House and facilitate debate. I am That is all happening: as I have said, there have been being as helpful as you know I always am on these more than 7,000 enforcements. Local authorities are occasions, Madam Deputy Speaker. having to chase a moving target as it is. The Government’s relaxation of the rules will make that significantly worse. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): At the moment, the local authority simply has to prove, Order. Before you proceed, Mr Davies, let me say that should it choose to do so, that the property is being let that is extremely helpful and that I am very grateful. on a short-term let basis without permission. In future, Given that the debate must end at 4.46 pm, it gives us a it will have to demonstrate that the property has been better idea of how to proceed. Thank you. let for more than 90 days without permission, which will be a far harder thing for it to do. We have already Philip Davies: I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. seen—Camden, I think, is the council that has monitored It is a shame that the debate clashes with the first day of this most closely—an explosion of lettings on the main the Cheltenham festival, but that is a hardship we shall websites since the Government announced their intention have to bear. Anyone who has their doubles and trebles to deregulate. That is no accident and we can expect it might like to know that Ruby Walsh and Willy Mullins to happen elsewhere. have won three of the first four races today. We need to make it possible for local authorities to act to enforce. Personally, I would like the amount of 3.30 pm time for which someone can let out their home to be I am still bemused at the fact that we are dealing with reduced significantly to 30 days, which would be reasonable a last-minute amendment on retaliatory eviction in what in London. I certainly support the argument that the is supposed to be a deregulation Bill. The Minister said property should be the principal residence of the person earlier that he would not accept an amendment because who is letting it. Above all, I strongly feel that local it went against the spirit of a deregulation Bill, yet here authorities should have a right to be notified when such he is promoting a new regulation. I am struggling to lettings take place. It is only through notification that a understand how Lords amendment 18 has anything to local authority will be able to enforce action. do with deregulation. My amendments certainly try to Fundamentally, this comes down to the right for a keep to the spirit of the Bill by reducing some of the local authority to determine what is in the best interests over-regulatory interventions that the Lords amendment of its own community. We do not need to worry about would bring about. whether London local authorities are concerned with It was no accident that I was so keen to scrutinise the boosting the tourist industry or economic growth: they earlier incarnation of these changes in the Tenancies are very much concerned with them, but they know very (Reform) Bill, which was brought forward by the hon. well that a balance has to be struck between those Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather). I am glad agendas and the protection of the people who live in that I did, because its provisions were wide-ranging London and their amenity and access to housing. and, as far as I could see, were an attempt to deal with a Westminster city council—which, I repeat, is not known problem—there was no evidence that it was as widespread for failing to advocate a deregulatory agenda—is at the as she claimed it to be—by inadvertently penalising forefront of making that case, with which I totally good, normal landlords at the expense of bad tenants. agree. In fact, not only was there no evidence to suggest that Even at this last hurdle, if the Government support there was a big problem, but there was evidence showing the measures proposed by my colleagues on the Labour that it was a very small problem. Front Bench to allow local authorities to have the right Some people would love us to buy into the illusion to determine what is in the interests of their own that all landlords are bad and all tenants are good. communities, that would be very strongly welcomed by There might be good and bad landlords, but the truth is all parties in local government and in this Chamber, that there are also good and bad tenants, and we should and the many thousands of people who live in the not forget that. There are already grey areas of law over residential neighbourhoods most affected in London these matters. John Midgley, to whom I pay tribute, is would breathe an enormous sigh of relief. the enfranchisement and property litigation partner at Seddons solicitors. He acts for landlords and tenants Philip Davies: I begin by drawing the House’s attention alike and has been helpful to me in talking through to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial some of these issues. One of his concerns is that these Interests. As I have previously made clear in these proposals could yet again have unintended consequences. debates, I am a tenant in two properties: my home in In fact, the principle of an amendment that I tabled to Shipley and where I stay when I am working in Parliament. this Bill at an earlier stage was accepted by the Government I am also the landlord of one other property that I rent after the superstrike case, where the courts had ruled in out. I therefore like to think that I have a good perspective a way that was contrary to what many thought were the on these matters and I want to see a situation in which real intentions of the original legislation. The clarification we reward good landlords and good tenants. That is the was required because the legislation was not clear enough basis for my amendments to Lords amendment 18. and all the eventualities had not been covered sufficiently. In the interests of time, Madam Deputy Speaker, and Through these amendments and what is said in this in order to be helpful, I intend to speak only to my debate we have a chance to make Parliament’s intentions amendments, because other Members have already ably clear. We can then avoid the need for this regulation to put forward their cases on the others. From what I have be revisited simply because it is not clear enough that heard, the shadow Minister might want to press one of the intention is not to penalise good landlords. I am his amendments to a Division, so I will not seek to grateful that the Minister, from what I could tell, was 207 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 208 keen to say that the purpose of these Lords amendments, with the concept of no-fault evictions. We are talking as far as the Government were concerned, and the basis about six-month tenancies here, and to give the tenant on which they would accept them, was that good landlords the equivalent of a whole free tenancy, even though the would not be penalised. repair may have been dealt with, is crazy. Why not five Let met turn to the detail of my amendments. I was months? Why not four months? Why not seven months? rather disappointed when the Minister highlighted how The landlord may already have been unable to issue a little he knew about retaliatory eviction, because he notice for some time at that point, meaning that they seemed to be drawing numbers from thin air for the would not have been able to evict for that period, number of such evictions. When the hon. Member for however long that was, plus the six months referred to Brent Central introduced her Bill, she did so on the here and the two-months’ notice period. That is an basis that there were 200,000 such evictions a year. We absolute minimum of eight months. then got into a bidding war with a Lib Dem peer saying To those who say that the Lords amendment is to that the legislation was vital because there were 300,000 protect tenants from being evicted as soon as the repair such evictions each year. Now the Government say that has been carried out, I would say this. First, it is hardly as far as they are concerned there are 80,000. People are likely that landlords, for no good reason, would spend just making up numbers willy-nilly. the money to carry out a repair at their own expense Fortunately, the evidence is all there in the English and then evict a rent-paying tenant, with all the associated housing survey, which shows why people are evicted costs and risks that that would entail. That would be from their properties. It makes it abundantly clear that crazy. 81% of tenants leave of their own free will, 10% go by Secondly, let us remember that a tenancy is a contract mutual agreement and just 7% are asked to leave by the and must work both ways. In law, when tenants want to landlord. Of that 7%, 57% are asked to leave because leave the property after the agreed time, they just leave. the landlord wants to sell the property, 10% because of In theory, they pay their last month’s rent, hand over non-payment of rent and 35% for other reasons. I went the keys, get their deposit back, or part of it, and walk to the people who conducted the survey to ask what away. They abide by the terms of the lease for the notice those other reasons were—I do not suppose anybody period and then they are free to go. In fact, even if they else bothered—and I was told that the numbers were do not pay their rent, they often just leave and it is then too small to be broken down further, but they included: up to the landlord to decide what, if anything, to do to difficulties with the payment of housing benefit; landlords try to recover the money owed to them. They do not being dissatisfied with how the accommodation was need to give a reason for leaving or to justify it to being looked after; landlords receiving complaints from anyone, and nor should they. However, according to the neighbours; and—this was the last one—tenants English housing survey, 80% of private renters who complaining to the landlord about problems with the moved in the past three years said they had moved property. Even if we take all the other reasons, 6,000 is because they wanted to move, so most people are walking the maximum possible number of evictions there could away when they have chosen to do so. be and it is perfectly clear from the English housing survey that the figure is much lower than that. We are Thirdly, there could a situation where two things told that the provisions are absolutely essential because happen completely coincidentally. I do not believe that there are 200,000 cases a year, but that is not so. At the Bill has considered this genuine possibility carefully most, there are a few thousand. enough. I will come on to my grave concerns about this later, but I will say for now that it is perfectly possible I am not defending any landlord who acts in an that shortly after a tenant raises a repairing issue, a irresponsible manner and tries to kick out tenants simply landlord genuinely needs to get their property back. If because they have complained about their accommodation. the two Lords amendments relating to this issue are I would never defend that; that is unjustifiable. However, accepted, it would limit any additional damage caused we should at least have on the record the true scale of in such cases by lifting the random six-month bar on the problem, rather than numbers people have invented. the service of a section 21 notice. If people want to act on the basis of the actual numbers, let them make their case—I have no problem with Fourthly, the proposal would create a perverse situation that—but please let us not have people justifying action whereby a landlord who deals with the problem is based on fantasy numbers they have just plucked out of treated just as badly as a landlord who does nothing thin air, and the Government going along with it. That until the eleventh hour, presumably after much is not the basis for legislating in this House, and it is inconvenience to the tenant. I do not see the logic of rather disappointing that the Government have resorted penalising both and disincentivising a good landlord to using what they must know, in their heart of hearts, from carrying out what we would expect from a good are bogus figures. landlord. The whole point of this provision is to deal with the For those reasons, I do not believe that the law needs very small numbers of people who are evicted because changing. As it happens, that was the view of the they asked for a repair to be done. Surely, therefore, the previous Labour Government when they considered emphasis of the legislation should be on getting the this matter. I think that was perfectly reasonable. That repair done. Currently, it is possible to evict tenants has been the view of every previous Government. It was because they have asked for a repair to be done. The the view of the Communities and Local Government amendment from the other place seems to take an Committee, with a Labour chairman, when it looked at almighty sledgehammer to crack a tiny nut. It says that this issue. It recommended against making any changes the landlord will not be able to evict a tenant for six to the law on this area. So it is not as if I am a lone months following the issue of a relevant notice. That is ranger on this; the opinion I am arguing for today has clearly completely over the top and it messes dangerously always been the consensus opinion. 209 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 210

My amendments are a compromise between those Similarly, amendment (g) concerns the condition of keen to do something about a problem that apparently the dwelling house, as it is called in the Lords amendment. exists and the kind of gesture politics that will actually As with the previous point, there is no explanation of damage the condition of rental properties and the market what is meant by “condition of the dwelling house” generally. Under my amendments, as soon as the repair when a tenant initially writes to the landlord. The has been completed, the landlord and tenant would be Government might say that that is dealt with where the in the position they would have been in but for the Lords amendment mentions the tenant’s making a repair issue. In other words, the landlord could give the complaint to the “relevant local housing authority” tenant two months’ notice to leave under section 21, as about the same, or substantially the same, subject matter they could have done had no repair been needed, which as the complaint to the landlord. I point this out merely seems to be what we are trying to achieve. Currently, the to ensure there can be no misunderstandings and that landlord could fail to make the repairs and evict the the condition of the dwelling house cannot, for example, tenant. Under my proposal, they would have to make include a broken light bulb or the like. We should all be the repair so that the tenant could live in the property clear that the intention of the Bill is that it refers to a with the repair completed, and if the landlord then relatively serious problem that needs fixing, not to the chose to give two months’ notice, the tenant would get fact that a light bulb has gone and nobody has gone the benefit of the repair in the meantime. I see no round to fix it, enabling the tenant to abuse the Bill for justification for the Lords amendment, and I had hoped some trivial purpose. As things stand and as the legislation that my compromise amendment would be substituted, is written, there is no real defence for the landlord. I but clearly the Government have decided against it, hope that the Minister will at least make clear in the based on what the Minister said earlier, although we did words he uses what the intention behind this legislation not have much of an explanation why. is, should a court case come along, and confirm that it is My amendment (c) would change “14 days” to “20 not intended for the trivial matters that I have described. working days”. Under the Lords amendment 18, the landlord has 14 days to respond to the tenant’s initial complaint. Given that under the Bill a failure to do so 3.45 pm will have significant legal implications, it seems to me Amendments (b), (e), (c) and (d) to Lords amendment that 14 days is a rather short period, bearing it in mind 19 make provision for the landlord to be protected from that people are entitled to holidays and could be ill—if the retaliatory eviction provisions if the house is for somebody went on holiday for two weeks, they would sale. I shall come on to that in a minute, but there are be completely snookered under the Lords amendment. other glaring omissions along similar lines. The most Also, I am told that the proposal does not match up important one is where the landlord wants the property with the pre-action protocol on disrepair claims under back to live in. According to the English housing survey, the civil procedure rules. If there is already a good legal only 7% of private renters who had moved in the last precedent for the time scale of 20 working days, it seems three years said that their tenancy had ended because more reasonable and practical than 14 days and should be they had been asked to leave by the landlord. Just short the benchmark, rather than a random number of days. of six out of 10 landlords in that 7% category wanted On amendments (d) and (f), the Residential Landlords their property back either to sell it or use it, so it is Association, which I have been in touch with, is rightly important that we get this part right. In my opinion, concerned that the Bill does not provide for a moratorium this amounts to a huge omission. preventing a local authority from taking action. A local In one case I came across, a woman had rented out authority can still serve a statutory notice on the landlord, her property in the UK because she had gone abroad even if the landlord is dealing with the complaint with her partner. The relationship broke up and she responsibly, as the law asks them to do. It points out needed to come back to her home in the UK to live that the Bill has consequences for such a landlord. The in—a perfectly reasonable position to be in. It is her solution would be the addition of the provision that so property, so she should be able to do that. As drafted, long as the landlord replies in time and in an adequate however, the Lords amendments would make it very way, the local authority is precluded from serving a difficult for her to live in her own home for an awfully statutory notice, unless the landlord fails to carry out long period if she needs it back. Some thought should the work on time, subject to an extension of time for be given in the legislation to such circumstances, which good reason. That is what my amendments seek to are more common that many people might think, as the achieve. English housing survey showed. I tabled amendment (e), to leave out subsection (5), because it seemed odd to have a proposal for dealing There may be circumstances where the landlord wants with retaliatory eviction even where the tenant did not or even needs to redevelop the property, which might communicate with the landlord about the repair issue. not be possible with a tenant living in it. There may be a Surely it can only be a retaliatory eviction if the landlord compulsory purchase order or a legal duty to complete evicted a tenant knowing there was a problem. Under works, which cannot be done with a tenant in place. subsection (5), the provisions can be applied even if the Surely, it cannot be right for a landlord to be in breach landlord did not know there was a repair issue. How on of other legislation because of unfair restrictions in this earth that qualifies as a retaliatory eviction the Lord legislation, which presumably cannot have been intended. only knows. Under the Lords amendment, a tenant can If the Government will not accept my amendments, rely on the retaliatory eviction provisions even if they can the Minister at least confirm the position in respect have been unable to contact the landlord. If the tenant of breaching other legislation? Why should people not is paying their rent, they will have at least one means of be able to get their own homes back to live in themselves contacting the landlord—through paying their rent—so if they need to? It would be very helpful if the Minister I believe that this strange proviso should be removed. explained that. 211 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 212

I appreciate that I am racing through my amendments, been in force I would have had even more difficulty getting my Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am trying to give others property back and she may still have been there. I would have had the opportunity to get their points across and then to to spend money to deal with the claims she had levied and there have a Division. Under my amendment (e), retaliatory would be no guarantee or obligation for her to settle the arrears going forwards. I would have been in a terrible situation. eviction would not apply in certain conditions. It would depend on the tenant acting in “a tenant-like manner”, There does not need to be a change to the current legislation, the section 21 is needed just as it is.” on not using the house for “immoral or illegal purposes” and on the absence of any Amendment (c) would insert in Lords amendment 19 the words “indictable offence committed in, or in the locality of, the dwelling- house”. “or where the landlord intends to sell the dwelling house within six months.” Another condition is whether the tenant is in prison at the time. I think much of the amendment is self-explanatory, As I have said, when a property is for sale, the landlord and I like to think that Members will see its obvious is still able to serve a valid section 21 notice. There are merits. myriad exclusions, for reasons that are beyond me, but I shall leave that aside for now. However, the landlord For some reason—I am not sure why, so perhaps the may not be able to put the property on the market until Minister could have a better stab at explaining it—what it is tenant-free. The change that I propose would seem obvious and common-sense amendments dealing prevent a tenant from making a complaint simply to with omissions are not going to being accepted. If a prevent the property from being sold. I might add that tenant has used a property for criminal purposes, it past Governments have always accepted that that is a must be right that they are not afforded any additional legitimate reason for the serving of a section 21 notice. legal protections to stay there. Surely, that is common sense. Equally, if a tenant is in prison at the time of The landlord may not have been aware of the position making a complaint about the property, they should at the time of the original complaint, but the Lords surely not be able to benefit from these Lords amendments. amendment would prevent him from subsequently selling the dwelling or removing the tenant. That strikes me as This is a completely unacceptable way to pass wide- a total Catch-22 for landlords, which must surely be an ranging legislation—on the basis of Lords amendments unintended consequence of the legislation as it is currently to legislation that has had no previous scrutiny in this proposed. place at all. We barely have any time to scrutinise it, and this is when mistakes happen in legislation. That is what Amendment (d) would insert the words happening today, as this is being rushed through in an “at the time the section 21 notice is given the landlord’s reasons unsatisfactory manner. for serving the notice are unrelated to the repairing issue.” If the tenant has refused access to the landlord, for As I said earlier, I have grave concerns about what will example, to prevent them from seeing any problems or happen if a landlord genuinely needs his property back from doing any repairs, it could hardly be right for the and the tenant has, by sheer coincidence, made a complaint tenant then to benefit from the retaliatory eviction about a repair. It seems to me to be only fair to exempt provisions. Nothing in the Lords amendments will deal landlords who have a genuine reason and to prevent with that, unless my amendments are accepted. If tenants them from being caught up in this nightmare legislation. do not allow the landlord to fix the problem, it should Their need for the property to be returned could well not be possible to protect them from eviction. have nothing to do with any kind of revenge or retaliation, On rent arrears, my amendment would provide an but they will be caught up in the legislation regardless. effective way to separate good tenants from bad and If, by sheer coincidence, the tenant of the woman ensure that good tenants are rewarded, while bad tenants whom I mentioned earlier, who went abroad and had to are not allowed to abuse the system. If the rent is not return to this country—the tenant had been dealing paid, the landlord may well not be able to afford to with managing agents—had given notice of a problem, carry out the necessary repairs. It would be very unfair that woman would not have been able to move back to penalise a landlord by allowing a non-paying tenant into her property for six months, and, presumably, for a to remain in the property for a further eight months—the further two months after that. Given that she would be extra six months that have been randomly provided, the one moving back at the end of that eight-month along with the two-month notice period. Indeed, it period, it could be assumed that she probably wanted would be an absolute travesty. the repairs to be carried out. Far from having an interest Last year, when we were debating the Tenancies in not carrying them out, she would have an interest in (Reform) Bill—on which these amendments are based—I carrying them out, because she was going to live in the was contacted by a landlord in my constituency, who property. Surely, landlords should be protected in wrote: circumstances in which they will live in their properties themselves. They clearly will not want to live in a “I have been a renting landlord for over 30 years with a small property that is not in a fit state. The Lords amendment portfolio and in that time have served 2 section 21s to tenants. One was a young delinquent male and his parents were involved would make un upsetting situation even more stressful. and were understanding. There could also be a problem if someone wanted to The other was a woman who was a long term tenant in a rented move back into a property to be near an ill or dying house and with whom I had had difficulties for several years relative and help with that person’s care. Surely, no one collecting rent. When she left eventually there was a CC” wants to pass legislation that would prevent that from —county court— happening. It would be helpful if the Minister made it “judgement against her for £6,000 arrears. The reason I am clear that that is not the intention and that, if there are elaborating is that in my negotiations with her and her representatives any claims in the courts, they can take that in consideration the fabric of the building was brought into the discussions. Her when dealing with what is currently very unsatisfactory grievances were not justified but if the proposals suggested had legislation. 213 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 214

I turn to amendments 21 and 26. On amendment (a) many hurdles people will be prepared to jump and even to Lords amendment 21, the proposed burden placed accomplished hurdlers like Colin Jackson might feel on all landlords, good or bad, is that they are prevented like giving up if they see the size of the hurdles that the from serving notice under section 21 for the first four Government are putting in the way of landlords. months of the tenancy. This could have implications if I believe that my amendments are more in tune with the landlords then are unable to serve notice on exactly the spirit of the Deregulation Bill than those proposed the first day of the fifth month, as they will lose out. by the Lords. I hope that the Minister will think again Therefore, this amendment reduces that period to two about these matters, or at least clarify what the months as a compromise. That would give landlords Government’s intentions are with this legislation on the two months to get their notice in and get their property points I have raised and agree to the review, which if he back after the six months, if that was what they needed, has any confidence in the Bill, he will be happy to do. and make things a bit fairer. It also prevents the tenants from having a free four-month period in which to make Mr Slaughter: Given the excellent speeches we have a repairing complaint when the landlord can do nothing already heard on this subject from my hon. Friend the about it—something that, again, seems to be treating Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), the hon. Member landlords as guilty until proven innocent. for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) My final amendments are amendments (a) and (b) to and my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North Lords amendment 26. I believe we have far too much (Ms Buck), I can be relatively brief on amendments (a) legislation already, so I was pleased to see the Deregulation to (k) to Lords amendment 27. Bill announced, but as the Government are now using it The question that arises here is cui bono—for whose to introduce more regulation, I am not quite as happy benefit are these changes being made? Who do the as I was when it was introduced. I suppose that is what Government think benefit from allowing, in effect, happens when we have Liberal Democrats in government, unrestrained short letting in London? There is no however: a deregulation Bill becomes an extra regulation mechanism for ensuring that these are not permanent Bill. short lets that go beyond 90 days, which, in itself, is too For the reasons I have stated, I believe that it is healthy long. It is certainly not residents who benefit, nor is it to have either a sunset clause or, at the very least, a residents wishing to do so-called Wimbledon or short review of this so-called necessary legislation to see what holiday lets; it is large commercial organisations, some the real effects have been—to see whether any of the of which have been set up specifically to exploit this fears I am outlining have come to fruition. It would be potential loophole—companies such as Airbnb and big helpful if the Government agreed that some kind of commercial landlords. review will take place, certainly given the unsatisfactory way this extra regulation is being introduced at the last minute. Anyone who is confident that these laws will 4pm work well should have nothing to fear from a review. It Let me illustrate that, exemplifying why our proposals would give me at least some confidence that the Government go a substantial way towards addressing the problem, have some confidence in their own legislation if they by reading from parts of an e-mail I received just last agree to review it to make sure everything is fine. month from a constituent. It said: There is always a danger with such legislation that the “I write to you as a concerned citizen. A whole part of a whole more of it there is, the more work will end up in the mansion block in your constituency near Ravenscourt Park hands of lawyers and judges trying to deal with the underground station has been unlawfully converted into a hotel. I know this to be certain as I pass the building daily on my way to fallout from it. The serving of notices can already be a work and see many people with suitcases who, when I ask them if highly litigious area. I understand there is much case they need any help, usually respond that they have stayed or are law on the subject of the issuing of notices and this is staying 1/2/3 nights in an apartment in the building. Additionally, where the doubt is on the side of the landlord and the I couldn’t find that any planning permission had been granted in side of the tenant. to allow these residential apartments or the building itself to be short let from the Hammersmith and Fulham planning database.” I am surprised that we are here again today discussing this issue at this stage, as it has been considered on The constituent then provides four links to websites many occasions, and even the Communities and Local that are advertising these apartments, which sound very Government Committee concluded by saying: attractive. He continues: “We are not convinced, however, that a legislative approach is “They also advertise on Airbnb and Trip Advisor…I read the the best or even an effective solution. Changing the law to limit transcript of the debate in the House of Commons on 7th January the issuing of section 21 notices might be counter-productive and with respect to the proposed Deregulation Bill and particularly stunt the market.” agreed with yourself and Karen Buck MP with respect to the consequences of unlawful short term letting…What is worrying is That all-party group—a Select Committee—looked into this isn’t one or two flats in a block carried out by amateurs. These this in detail and came up with that unanimous conclusion. are professional property managers that have rented these apartments Yet here we are today completely ignoring all of that and made them available for short let. The experiences of long wise counsel and having just that kind of interference. suffering residents in Westminster and Camden would seem now to be spreading out from the centre as prices there soar. However, I believe the measures before the House today would this activity only serves to increase the rents of people who live tilt the scales unfairly away from the landlord, which, as and work in Hammersmith, thereby pushing them out. A friend I have said, could easily put people off renting, so there of mine who is writing to the council about another building had could be fewer houses to rent. We should not just keep to move out of the area due to his Landlord raising the rent. The putting up an additional legal hurdle and saying that it Landlord justified the rent increase by saying that he could just is not that big a deal and assuming that everyone will rent the apartment out on a short term basis and make more money.” jump it no matter how small the steps are and how Typically, we are talking about two or three times as much higher we keep building it. There are only so much money as can be made with a conventional letting. 215 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 216

The e-mail continued: time to time—the new procedure will instead be more “As austerity cuts have taken their toll on many London complicated. Local authorities will be able to apply for communities and unscrupulous landlords charge sky high rents a specific exemption in relation to a specific building on for what previously were affordable properties, I’d like to know grounds that they will have to agree with the Secretary whether the company managing this building not only has the of State. What on earth is wrong with allowing boroughs requisite permission to run such an operation but has also passed such as Westminster and Hammersmith, which are the rigorous health and safety checks that hotels must undergo to sufficiently responsible and sufficiently experienced to engage in this activity. be able to determine what is in the best interests of their There are at least 12 apartments in this building engaging in own residents in this matter, to have a waiver in respect this activity and I consider the effects of unlawful short term of the proposals? This is an unnecessary provision in letting in disrupting the peace of a community and it’s effect on rents that breaks up a community to be detrimental to the any event. If the Government insist for their own reasons borough.” and for the purpose of box-ticking to push it through, they should at least allow the boroughs which are most I am proud to have constituents who can, in effect, affected by it to be exempted from it. write my speeches for me and put the arguments so articulately. I looked at some of the websites in question I hope the Minister is listening even at this stage. and found that the lowest cost for renting anything is Amendment (g) would give such discretion to local £170 a night. The apartments sound terribly attractive: authorities. I repeat the point on notification. Without “All the comforts of home, with the luxury and location of a notification, we will not get anywhere because nobody premier hotel”. will know what is going on. Unless those changes are made, there will be a free-for-all and the consequences I saw that even “plush towels” are included. There is a will be more homelessness, worse housing, higher rents note on the website saying: and more antisocial behaviour for my constituents and “Please note all Hammersmith apartments require a minimum people across central London. stay of 90 nights.” Judging by what my constituents’ observations have been and what the people coming out of those apartments Mr Raynsford: I, too, intend to speak about the have said, that may be honoured more in the breach provisions on short-term lettings. I very much endorse than in the execution. the views that were ably expressed by my hon. Friends and by the hon. Member for Cities of London and As a codicil to that rather sorry account, which Westminster (Mark Field). There is cross-party agreement exactly exemplifies why the Minister was entirely wrong and I fail to understand why the Government are proceeding in the arguments that he put forward, let me tell the with a measure which, as my hon. Friend the Member House what these particular buildings were used for up for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) rightly identified, until two years ago. I believe they were owned by the does not address a problem because there is no problem. Royal Bank of Scotland, but they were on long-term It will simply create a series of difficulties and aggravate lease to the Shepherds Bush Housing Group and were problems that are obvious to many of us who have used for accommodating homeless families for long looked at the subject and which are increasing exponentially periods. Some of the families had been in there for because of the changing character of the lettings market 10 years, but one by one they were evicted. Some are in London. being forced out of the borough and they are certainly being forced into other accommodation. Long-term, Before I proceed, I draw attention to my interests as low-income residents of Hammersmith are being forced declared in the register. out and replaced not by residential owners, but by I shall not repeat the arguments that have been well people renting for one, two or three nights. That pattern rehearsed already. This is not just a problem for central is already happening in Hammersmith and will happen London. In my constituency, Greenwich and Woolwich, all over London, including, I am sure, in Carshalton in there is a lot of evidence of problems of exactly this due course. nature. We have some major tourist attractions, such as I will not dwell on the effect on residents, which has the O2, which attract people for individual events, and been set out clearly at previous stages, but there will be the availability of very short lettings—one or two nights—is higher rents, antisocial behaviour and less accommodation an obvious attractive additional factor for people thinking for people in London at a time when there is a housing of coming to such an event. There are significant numbers crisis that affects us across the board, from those seeking of short-term lettings which have the effect, as my hon. social rents to those seeking private rents to those Friends have highlighted, first, of eroding permanent seeking owner occupation. I held a seminar in January lettings because properties are converted from permanent this year at which I had an extraordinarily good turnout, lettings to short-term lettings, and secondly, in certain mainly by residents of mansion blocks in Hammersmith. circumstances, attracting antisocial behaviour and behaviour There was widespread concern across the constituency which is very damaging to existing residents of the about those effects. blocks being used, where properties are being converted for such short-term lettings. Why are we doing this? To solve a problem that does not exist. I wonder who dreamed up the scheme. Was it There was a murder recently in a property in Erebus decided to remove regulations willy-nilly in order to fill drive in West Thamesmead, not in the central area of up the Bill? There was no problem. The Minister and Greenwich, which is perhaps more attractive to tourism, other Ministers have been unable to say how ordinary but an area to the eastern edge of my constituency. The citizens are penalised by not being allowed to have matter is under investigation so I shall be cautious in short-term lets of their properties. The Minister revealed what I say, but the evidence that I have seen is that it today that far from deregulating—here I agree with the involved a very short letting—for only two nights, I hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), as I do from think—and a party which attracted people from a wide 217 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 218

[Mr Raynsford] may not be working brilliantly but which at least gives local authorities in their local areas some local tools area, including the west midlands. In the course of an that they can use against the adverse effects of short-term altercation that evidently developed at the party, one letting that we have had described today? I cannot see individual lost their life. the benefits to any but a small commercial niche that Such a situation is hugely damaging to the community’s seeks to profit at the expense of the wider community. I confidence in its homes if it finds that properties can be am fearful of the impact on legitimate traders as it is. I subject to such short-term letting with very little check am worried about the impact on the hotels along the on who has taken out the letting. These are short-term Bath road, which are a source of employment to my agreements and they are not subject to the kinds of local community. But in addition to that, the average checks that reputable landlords would carry out before hotel in my area employs between 200 and 250 staff. deciding whether to let premises to an individual. That Many of those staff live within the local community in in itself is bad enough, but where individual lettings private rented properties. I am worried that this will take place for a short period and properties are advertised, affect the private rented market in my area and have a people come from far afield, resulting in huge antisocial knock-on effect on staff who are not the highest paid behaviour with noise late at night, causing nuisance to and sometimes fairly low paid. residents. These are the consequences of what the Government seek to do. They are already a problem, 4.15 pm but at least local authorities have powers at the moment My greatest worry is the churning of the local community to act. If the Government proceed with their proposals, that results from the instability and blight in our area those powers will be seriously restricted. It will not be owing to the third runway and the buy-to-let regime. possible to take action unless it can be established that This proposal will create even further instability. I have the property has been used for this purpose for more also had problems with short-let properties regarding than 90 nights. That in itself will be a difficult task to antisocial behaviour, parties and so on, and with cannabis establish, as the City of Westminster made clear in its growing. evidence to us. If there is to be a new regime, it is critical that we This is a measure that has the seeds of all sorts of follow the advice that we have been given by the local problems and difficulties, and I fail to understand why authorities—that these matters should be determined the Government are proceeding with it against the locally. It should be for local authorities to determine overwhelming views of the informed public in London. how they tackle the particular issues in their areas. This This is not a partisan case. Political parties across the proposal seems to fly in the face of all the statements we board have agreed that proper regulatory arrangements have had from the coalition parties about the development need to be in place to allow the control of such lettings of localism within policy making and within government. and to prevent the kinds of abuses that I have highlighted. There is also widespread support from residents groups I understand the argument about people wanting to in many areas of London, including my own. Against let out their properties when they go abroad on holiday, all that evidence and with an extraordinary lack of but 90 days is beyond the length of a normal holiday. If evidence to support what the Government are doing, I there had to be a few exceptions, we could have some hope that common sense will prevail and that they will parameters around 30 days, which was a reasonable agree to pull back and accept the amendments, at least suggestion. This is opening up almost a cowboy market to allow greater control and safeguards, and to avoid that is going to operate in many of our areas. some of the consequences that we fear will happen as a As I say, I fear for the area around Heathrow in result of this ill-conceived measure. particular. It would be helpful if the Minister gave us more advice on how a local authority can apply to have John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I do an area designated by the Secretary of State taken out not want to repeat what others have said but rather to of this regime and have the old regime continue to address a specific local issue for me concerning the area operate with regard to enforcement and supervision. It around Heathrow airport. I have had representations is hard enough to supervise at the moment, but this will from all the major hotels along the Bath road around render it almost unenforceable. We will have a free-for-all Heathrow and from the local community, and I have in the market and dire consequences for most of our seen representations from London Councils. I will describe communities. the area as it now is, because I am worried that this will I understand the Wimbledon argument, but there are be the straw that breaks the camel’s back in terms of better ways of achieving this which are designed at the retaining any form of community around the Heathrow local level by local authority members and officers who villages. With the threat of the third runway, Sipson is have had experience of this, over time, across London. already three-quarters bought by Heathrow Airport We have reached a consensus across London among Ltd and rented out on licences of, I believe, no more those in local government and our elected representatives, than two years, which is destabilising for the community and, in my area, industry—the hotels—and local anyway. There is a massive expansion of buy-to-lets. All community representatives. This is the first time I have of us can identify buy-to-lets in our constituencies by ever advocated on behalf of a new comrade, Councillor their unkempt gardens, the lack of repair, and the Roe, the leader of Westminster council. occasional mattress dumped outside. With this legislation A whole range of people with great depths of experience there will be further destabilisation of the community have argued with the Government that this is not the and further short-term lettings. right approach, and I urge them to take that on board. If Who asked for this change in legislation? What was the Minister is not willing to concede this matter today, the enormous demand? Who was banging at the doors we will be back here in six or 12 months’ time trying to of the ministerial office to change the system, which remedy the disastrous consequences of these proposals. 219 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 220

Tom Brake: With the leave of the House, Madam with the ability to approach the Secretary of State if the Deputy Speaker, I will try to respond to most, if not all amenity of a particular locality is affected, and we of the points raised in this informed and passionate expect them to do so. debate about some of the matters in the Bill. In response to the hon. Member for Corby (Andy John McDonnell: Will the Minister elaborate on that Sawford), the Government do not believe that health point? Once the legislation has gone through, will local and safety measures are bad. Clearly, when they are authorities be able to submit a bid to designate an area, appropriate, the Government support them. We are or do they have to wait for problems to arise before pleased, and welcome the fact, that the Health and making a submission? Safety Executive has recently, very vocally, pointed out to some organisations how badly they are interpreting Tom Brake: The honest answer is that we do not yet health and safety rules in using them as an excuse not to have such details, but they will be set out in regulations. allow things to happen. I assume that a local authority would have to provide examples, such as a consistent pattern of noise nuisance The hon. Gentleman spent some time on the issue of or antisocial behaviour in an area, in a letter or submission private hire and subcontracting. If he feels that it is for the Secretary of State to consider. The exemption safer for a person who approaches a private hire operator will apply to a locality; Westminster could not apply for who says, “Sorry, I can’t help you”, because they cannot an exemption for the whole of the area covered by the subcontract it, then to go off and look online for an council. alternative provider, he is entitled to that view. I think that safety is actually enhanced by a contractor in an The hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) area having a relationship with another subcontractor spoke about the proposal to make people report it to who can work in another area. The hon. Gentleman the local authority every time they let property on a called for precisely that—a relationship between the short-term basis. I want to understand better the purpose different providers—and that is probably a better guarantee behind that and how it would work in practice. What of safety than someone simply looking online for people enforcement would there be if people did not report it? to do a job in the area. All such firms must be licensed, An individual who was going to rent out their property which also provides a safeguard for those seeking to for a week would be very unlikely to do so. How would travel in that way. she ensure that it was done? What action would be taken against people who did not comply, given that The hon. Gentleman referred to his party’s policy of short-term lets are already happening on a large scale in introducing rent caps or rent controls. [Interruption.] London and people are not taking notice of the existing He did, I believe. We can look at Hansard, but I think he law? used the term “rent caps”. The evidence is very clear that such caps lead to a reduction in the number of Ms Buck: The Minister has just conceded that he private rented properties, which I am sure is not what he does not know how the system will work and that we is seeking. will have to wait for the regulations. We will look at the Like other hon. Members, the hon. Gentleman thought exact operation at that time. Westminster city council that local authorities should be able to decide whether has looked at this matter closely and is confident that it certain areas should be exempted. In the Government’s could have a simple online reporting system that would view, that would introduce inconsistencies in that different allow people to notify the local authority that they rules would apply in different parts of London; our intended to have a short-term let, and that that could be proposals will provide consistency and be easier for matched up with the data on properties that were being people to understand. advertised. That would enable the local authority to My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London target enforcement against the properties that we are all and Westminster (Mark Field) talked about how insurance saying we are concerned about—not the one-off short for whole blocks may become invalid. If he has such holiday lets, but the extensive commercial lettings that examples, I would certainly like to see them. Our view is are permeating our residential neighbourhoods. that the reforms only affect the requirement for planning permission; they do not have any impact on insurance Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for expanding on polices and tenancy agreements. If he can supply me how the proposal would work. However efficient with any examples, I will be happy to look at them. Westminster city council is, there will be huge difficulties in identifying the people who are advertising short-term My hon. Friend referred to Home Office concerns lets on websites and making a link with the local authority about the change from people staying in hotels to their register where those who are doing it properly have staying in short-term lets, making it harder for the registered. security services to monitor their activities, but that is The hon. Lady asked whether the Government’s clearly happening already. It will not happen as a result proposals will remove the ability of local authorities to of our changes; it is already happening on quite a large take enforcement action against illegal short-term letting. scale in London, as other hon. Members have said. If Clearly, if there is a breach, people will be at risk of the security services have identified such an issue, they planning enforcement action by their local authority. will have called on the Home Office to take action. I am Although we want the legislation to remain light touch, sure that the Home Office would respond positively to we want to send the strong signal that in order to let any such requests, but I am not aware of any. property on a short-term basis legally, people must Like other hon. Members, my hon. Friend asked remain within the 90-night limit, otherwise local authorities whether local authorities could choose to exempt particular will take enforcement action against them. areas in relation to private lettings. As I have said, that is not our view. We want to provide local authorities Ms Buck: How? 221 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 222

Tom Brake: I assume that local authorities will be Lords amendment 1 agreed to. provided with the information—the hon. Lady and Lords amendments 2 to 26 agreed to. other Members have said in this debate that this is Amendment (g) proposed to Lords amendment 27.— already happening on a large scale—and take the (Andy Sawford.) appropriate action. She referred to an explosion in the number of adverts for such letting. We are not aware Question put, That the amendment be made. that that has happened since the reforms were introduced. The House divided: Ayes 161, Noes 277. I understand her concerns, but the safeguards are in Division No. 173] [4.31 pm place to address them. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley AYES (Philip Davies) for saying that he will not press his Abrahams, Debbie Fitzpatrick, Jim amendments to a vote. Like him, I recognise that there Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Flello, Robert are good and bad landlords. There are also good and Alexander, Heidi Francis, Dr Hywel bad tenants. No doubt the good landlord and the bad Ali, Rushanara Gapes, Mike tenant and the bad landlord and the good tenant sometimes Anderson, Mr David Gardiner, Barry go to his surgery, as they come to mine, although not Austin, Ian Godsiff, Mr Roger usually at the same time, to report each other to their Bailey, Mr Adrian Goodman, Helen Member of Parliament. Bain, Mr William Green, Kate Balls, rh Ed Griffith, Nia My hon. Friend referred to the 80,000 figure that I Begg, Dame Anne Hain, rh Mr Peter quoted for retaliatory evictions as “fantasy” figures. He Benton, Mr Joe Hamilton, Mr David prefers his figure of 6,000. I understand that the English Berger, Luciana Hanson, rh Mr David housing survey does not give figures on retaliatory Betts, Mr Clive Harman, rh Ms Harriet eviction, but just talks about the fact that 9% of tenancies Blomfield, Paul Harris, Mr Tom are ended by the landlord. As I understand it, that does Blunkett, rh Mr David Havard, Mr Dai not provide the clarity that he wants on the numbers. Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Healey, rh John My hon. Friend said that the Government’s proposal Brennan, Kevin Hilling, Julie is not deregulatory. Of course, we have made it easier Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hopkins, Kelvin Brown, Mr Russell Howarth, rh Mr George for landlords to evict through the use of standard pro Buck, Ms Karen James, Mrs Siân C. forma notices and by no longer requiring that the notice Burnham, rh Andy Jamieson, Cathy given in relation to a periodic assured shorthold tenancy Campbell, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Diana ends on the last day of a period of the tenancy. Therefore, Campbell, Mr Ronnie Jones, Graham there are deregulatory measures, although I accept that Champion, Sarah Jones, Mr Kevan there are also measures that do not fall into that category. Clwyd, rh Ann Jones, Susan Elan Many of my hon. Friend’s amendments are covered Coaker, Vernon Kane, Mike in other legislation and so are not necessary. There will Coffey, Ann Keeley, Barbara Connarty, Michael Khan, rh Sadiq be a review of the legislation. That is automatic with Cooper, Rosie Lammy, rh Mr David legislation that is passed though this House. Corbyn, Jeremy Lavery, Ian The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) Creagh, Mary Lazarowicz, Mark asked about short-term lettings and how many prosecutions Creasy, Stella Leslie, Chris there have been, but that is a matter for local authorities Cryer, John Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma and we do not have that information to hand. He Cunningham, Alex Lucas, Caroline asserts that what the Government propose would be of Cunningham, Mr Jim Lucas, Ian no benefit to private owners. I would ask him— Cunningham, Sir Tony Mahmood, Shabana Curran, Margaret Marsden, Mr Gordon unfortunately time does not allow—to expand on how Dakin, Nic McCabe, Steve he knows that it would not benefit private owners, given Danczuk, Simon McCarthy, Kerry that many people use— Darling, rh Mr Alistair McCrea, Dr William David, Wayne McDonald, Andy Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Davies, Geraint McDonnell, John The right hon. Gentleman has the leave of the House to Denham, rh Mr John McFadden, rh Mr Pat speak for a second time in this short debate. Having Dobson, rh Frank McGovern, Alison spoken for 35 minutes at the beginning of the debate, Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. McGuire, rh Dame Anne the leave of the House was for a short conclusion to the Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McInnes, Liz debate. So far he has taken 12 minutes, which is not a Doran, Mr Frank Mearns, Ian short contribution. I appreciate that he is answering Doughty, Stephen Moon, Mrs Madeleine many complicated questions, but I am afraid that in Dowd, Jim Morden, Jessica order to behave properly to the House, which has given Doyle, Gemma Morris, Grahame M. him leave to speak for a second time, he ought to Dromey, Jack (Easington) conclude briefly. Dugher, Michael Mudie, Mr George Durkan, Mark Munn, Meg Eagle, Maria Murphy, rh Mr Jim Tom Brake: Thank you for the clarity, Madam Deputy Edwards, Jonathan Murray, Ian Speaker. I will conclude and I apologise that I was not Efford, Clive Onwurah, Chi able to give simple answers to the complicated questions Elliott, Julie Perkins, Toby from Opposition Members. I urge the House to accept Ellman, Mrs Louise Pound, Stephen Lords amendments 1 to 37 and 39 to 123, and to reject Evans, Chris Powell, Lucy the amendments to the Lords amendments. Farrelly, Paul Raynsford, rh Mr Nick 223 Deregulation Bill10 MARCH 2015 Deregulation Bill 224

Reed, Mr Jamie Stuart, Ms Gisela Gray, Mr James McIntosh, Miss Anne Reynolds, Emma Tami, Mark Grayling, rh Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Ritchie, Ms Margaret Thomas, Mr Gareth Green, rh Damian McPartland, Stephen Robertson, John Timms, rh Stephen Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McVey, rh Esther Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Trickett, Jon Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Rotheram, Steve Turner, Karl Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Roy, Mr Frank Twigg, Stephen Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Roy, Lindsay Umunna, Mr Chuka Halfon, Robert Mills, Nigel Ruane, Chris Vaz, Valerie Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Watson, Mr Tom Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael Sarwar, Anas Whitehead, Dr Alan Hammond, Stephen Morgan, rh Nicky Sawford, Andy Williams, Hywel Hancock, rh Matthew Morris, Anne Marie Seabeck, Alison Williamson, Chris Hancock, Mr Mike Morris, James Shannon, Jim Wilson, Phil Hands, rh Greg Mosley, Stephen Sheerman, Mr Barry Wilson, Sammy Harper, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Sheridan, Jim Winnick, Mr David Harrington, Richard Munt, Tessa Harris, Rebecca Murray, Sheryll Skinner, Mr Dennis Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Slaughter, Mr Andy Hart, Simon Newton, Sarah Woodcock, John Smith, Angela Harvey, Sir Nick Nokes, Caroline Wright, Mr Iain Smith, Nick Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Norman, Jesse Spellar, rh Mr John Tellers for the Ayes: Hayes, rh Mr John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Straw, rh Mr Jack Tom Blenkinsop and Heald, Sir Oliver Offord, Dr Matthew Stringer, Graham Bridget Phillipson Heath, Mr David Opperman, Guy Heaton-Harris, Chris Ottaway, rh Sir Richard NOES Hemming, John Paice, rh Sir James Henderson, Gordon Parish, Neil Adams, Nigel Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Pawsey, Mark Afriyie, Adam Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Penrose, John Aldous, Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Percy, Andrew Amess, Sir David Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Perry, Claire Andrew, Stuart Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Phillips, Stephen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davey, rh Mr Edward Holloway, Mr Adam Pincher, Christopher Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, David T. C. Hopkins, Kris Poulter, Dr Daniel Baker, Steve (Monmouth) Howarth, Sir Gerald Prisk, Mr Mark Baldry, rh Sir Tony Davies, Glyn Howell, John Pritchard, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Pugh, John Barclay, Stephen Davis, rh Mr David Hunter, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Barker, rh Gregory Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Randall, rh Sir John Bebb, Guto Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Reckless, Mark Bellingham, Mr Henry Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Redwood, rh Mr John Benyon, Richard Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Rees-Mogg, Jacob Beresford, Sir Paul Duddridge, James Jenrick, Robert Reevell, Simon Bingham, Andrew Duncan, rh Sir Alan Johnson, Gareth Reid, Mr Alan Binley, Mr Brian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Blackman, Bob Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, rh Mr David Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Blackwood, Nicola Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Rosindell, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Rudd, Amber Bottomley, Sir Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Ruffley, Mr David Bradley, Karen Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Sir Greg Russell, Sir Bob Brake, rh Tom Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Rutley, David Bray, Angie Evans, Graham Lamb, rh Norman Sanders, Mr Adrian Brazier, Mr Julian Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Sandys, Laura Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Mr Nigel Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Scott, Mr Lee Brine, Steve Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Selous, Andrew Brokenshire, James Fabricant, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Sharma, Alok Bruce, Fiona Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Shelbrooke, Alec Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Simmonds, rh Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Simpson, Mr Keith Burns, Conor Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Skidmore, Chris Burns, rh Mr Simon Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Chloe Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Sir Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Smith, Henry Burt, rh Alistair Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Smith, Julian Byles, Dan Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Smith, Sir Robert Cable, rh Vince George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Soubry, Anna Cairns, Alun Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Carmichael, Neil Gilbert, Stephen Lopresti, Jack Spencer, Mr Mark Carswell, Douglas Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Stanley, rh Sir John Chishti, Rehman Glen, John Luff, Sir Peter Stewart, Bob Clappison, Mr James Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Stewart, Iain Clark, rh Greg Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Stewart, Rory Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Graham, Richard Maude, rh Mr Francis Streeter, Mr Gary Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Jason Stride, Mel 225 Deregulation Bill 10 MARCH 2015 226

Stuart, Mr Graham Walter, Mr Robert Counter-Terrorism (Statutory Instruments) Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Watkinson, Dame Angela Sturdy, Julian Weatherley, Mike Swales, Ian Wharton, James 4.48 pm Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wheeler, Heather Swinson, Jo White, Chris The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Swire, rh Mr Hugo Whittaker, Craig Brokenshire): I beg to move, Syms, Mr Robert Whittingdale, Mr John That the draft Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Authority Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wiggin, Bill to Carry Scheme) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this Thornton, Mike Willetts, rh Mr David House on 2 March, be approved. Thurso, rh John Williams, Mr Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Williams, Roger Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): With Tomlinson, Justin Willott, rh Jenny this we shall consider the following motions: Truss, rh Elizabeth Wilson, Mr Rob That the draft Passenger, Crew and Service Information (Civil Turner, Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Penalties) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wright, rh Jeremy 2 March, be approved. Uppal, Paul Wright, Simon That the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Code of Vaizey, Mr Edward Young, rh Sir George Practice for Officers exercising functions under Schedule 1) Regulations Vara, Mr Shailesh Zahawi, Nadhim 2015 (S.I., 2015, No 217), dated 12 February 2015, a copy of Vickers, Martin which was laid before this House on 12 February, be approved. Walker, Mr Charles Tellers for the Noes: Walker, Mr Robin Gavin Barwell and That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for Examining Officers and Review Officers) Order 2015, which was Wallace, Mr Ben Dr Thérèse Coffey laid before this House on 27 February, be approved. That the draft Aviation Security Act 1982 (Civil Penalties) Question accordingly negatived. Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 2 March, be approved. 4.47 pm More than three hours having elapsed since the James Brokenshire: The statutory instruments appear commencement of proceedings on consideration of Lords on the Order Paper under the names of the Home amendments, the proceedings were interrupted (Programme Secretary and the Transport Secretary. This secondary Order, this day). legislation has been introduced to implement measures in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015. The The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary measures were debated by the House recently and the for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that primary legislation was enacted on 12 February. During time (Standing Order No. 83F). Parliament’s consideration of the legislation, there was Lords amendments 27 to 37 and 39 to 123 agreed to, widespread recognition of the threat from terrorism with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of and broad support for the measures. The instruments Lords amendment 33. bring to life some of those important provisions. In passing that legislation in February, the House accepted the need for those powers. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Authority to Carry Scheme) Regulations 2015 bring into force the authority to carry scheme. The regulations are provided for in section 23 of the 2015 Act, and the purpose of the scheme is to prevent or disrupt travel to and from the UK by individuals who pose a terrorism-related or other threat to the UK. It also mitigates the threat of terrorist attacks against aircraft and, should the threat change, ships and trains expected to arrive in or leave the UK. Authority to carry is now an important element of our counter-terrorism strategy. The new 2015 scheme allows us to respond to the changing threat and prevent individuals who might pose a terrorism-related or other threat from boarding flights from, as well as to, the UK. In order to remain responsive to changes in the threat, it is necessary to include international rail and maritime. The expanded scope of the scheme places outbound no-fly arrangements on a statutory footing and extends the operation of the authority to carry scheme to a broader range of individuals who pose a terrorism-related or other threat to the UK, including British nationals. The protection of children assessed to be at risk of travelling abroad for the purposes of involvement in terrorism-related activity is clearly paramount. The new scheme will enable us to prevent the travel of minors considered at risk of going abroad to join terrorist groups. That might follow a referral from their family or 227 Counter-Terrorism (Statutory 10 MARCH 2015 Counter-Terrorism (Statutory 228 Instruments) Instruments) it might be based on intelligence. The intention is not to that reflects provisions in the Act concerning the location criminalise children, but to enable the police to intervene of goods examinations. The guidance includes express before travel and use protective custody powers until provision for where goods examinations may take place. they are able to return the child to their family. It also provides the Secretary of State with a power to In addition to the categories of individuals included designate a location as a place where goods examinations in the 2012 scheme, authority to carry to the UK may may be carried out, if the Secretary of State reasonably be refused in respect of: individuals who are assessed by believes that to be necessary. the Secretary of State to pose a direct threat to the Finally, the draft Aviation Security Act 1982 (Civil security of an aircraft, ship or train, or to persons or Penalties) Regulations create a civil penalty scheme for property on board; individuals who are the subject of a addressing non-compliance with certain security directions temporary exclusion order made under chapter 2 of the or information requests made by the Secretary of State new Act; individuals excluded from the UK or subject under the Aviation Security Act 1982 in relation to to a deportation order; and all individuals who are inbound flights. The Secretary of State would have the subject to international travel bans, as well as individuals power to impose a penalty of a maximum of £50,000. who are using an invalid travel document or one that is Specifically, penalties could be issued where, in respect being used fraudulently for the purpose of travelling to of an inbound flight to the UK, a carrier has failed to the UK. comply either with a request for information or a direction The new scheme will, for the first time, require carriers requiring that certain security measures are applied, for to seek authority to carry individuals from the UK. The example security screening. The threat to aviation from penalty for breaching any requirement under the scheme terrorism remains serious. The regulations will help to will be set out in further regulations, which we expect to ensure that the Government can enforce their power to debate next week. specify certain security measures for flights operating to the UK where necessary. The second measure is the Passenger, Crew and Service Information (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2015. They These instruments are needed to implement measures establish civil sanctions that may be imposed upon in, or consequential to, the Counter-Terrorism and carriers that fail to comply with a requirement to provide Security Act 2015. They will help the Government and information under the Immigration Act 1971 or the law enforcement agencies to keep the country safe from Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006. They terrorism. I commend these instruments to the House. will complement existing criminal offences. The regulations They will assist in our response to the continuing threat allow the Secretary of State to impose a civil penalty from terrorism. I beg to move that they are approved. not exceeding £10,000 for each breach, but a carrier may not be required to pay a penalty if it has a reasonable 4.55 pm excuse or has otherwise been penalised for the same breach. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I am grateful to the I will now turn to the regulations that bring into Minister for his explanation of the statutory instruments operation the code of practice in relation to the exercise before the House. of powers under schedule 1 to the Counter-Terrorism The Minister and the House will know that in August and Security Act 2015. These powers are exercisable at 2014 the joint terrorism analysis centre raised the UK the border area of Northern Ireland and at ports threat level from substantial to severe, and that there are throughout the UK. They allow for the seizure and real concerns about the level of threat to the UK. The temporary retention of travel documents when there is Minister will also know about the increased level of reasonable suspicion that the person intends to travel to threat as a result of developments in Syria and Iraq in engage in terrorism-related activity outside the UK. particular, where terrorist groups are planning attacks Officers exercising the power are required to follow the on the west. It is clear, from the discussions currently code. taking place on the alleged murderer Mohammed Emwazi, That statutory instrument was made and laid before and the three schoolgirls who travelled from London to Parliament under the made affirmative procedure on Syria, that there are still great concerns about movement the day of Royal Assent and came into force the next and involvement in terrorist activity. The attacks in day—13 February—bringing the code of practice into early January on Charlie Hebdo in Paris and the incidents operation on the same day.The made affirmative procedure in Sydney bring home to us that such incidents could made that power available to law enforcement agencies occur in the United Kingdom. as soon as possible, properly safeguarded by the detailed The Opposition support fully all five statutory code of practice. I can confirm to the House this instruments. In a time of heightened terrorist threat to afternoon that the power has already been used. Obviously, our country, it is right that the Government take action I cannot give details of the particular circumstances, to protect our country. The measures are proportionate but I believe that this demonstrates that we were right to and reasonable. We support the draft Counter-Terrorism bring forward this piece of legislation and to bring it and Security Act 2015 (Authority to Carry Scheme) into force at the earliest opportunity. Regulations 2015. As the Minister said, the scheme The Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for Examining specifies the classes of carriers to which it applies, and Officers and Review Officers) Order 2015 gives effect to the passengers and crew in respect of whom authority a revised code of practice for examining and review must be requested. It is proportionate and reasonable. officers who exercise powers under schedule 7 to the We also support the draft Passenger, Crew and Service Terrorism Act 2000, as amended by the 2015 Act. As a Information (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2015. Again, result of amendments made to schedule 7 by the 2015 we believe it is reasonable. My only comment relates to Act, changes have been made to the schedule 7 code of paragraph 3.1 of the explanatory memorandum, which practice. The code before us today contains new guidance states that the instrument was laid before Parliament 229 Counter-Terrorism (Statutory 10 MARCH 2015 Counter-Terrorism (Statutory 230 Instruments) Instruments) [Mr David Hanson] James Brokenshire: As he has shown in his reports on, for example, the terrorism prevention and investigation less than 21 days before the proposed date that it is due measures, David Anderson clearly provides details about to come into force. I accept and understand the urgency when the powers have been used, and I expect him to with which the Minister has brought the regulations take a similar approach to the review of these powers. forward, but I just want to put down a marker and say that it is good practice to ensure that we have confidence Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the Minister. We have a in statutory instruments by providing the appropriate consensus on these issues. There is support across the time for discussion. House for the measures, and I hope that the House will support them. James Brokenshire: I entirely accept the right hon. Question put and agreed to. Gentleman’s important point about scrutiny. It is certainly not the normal approach of the Government to breach the 21-day rule. However, I hope he appreciates the need IMMIGRATION to act with pace in this case, given the national security issues at stake. Resolved, That the draft Passenger, Crew and Service Information (Civil Mr Hanson: I fully accept that and make no criticism Penalties) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 2 March, be approved.—(James Brokenshire.) of the broad sense of it. It is important for any future Government, whether it is the hon. Gentleman or me holding this ministerial post, to give due regard to PREVENTION AND SUPPRESSION OF process; otherwise, it will give rise to suspicion. I welcome TERRORISM and support the proposal. I also support provisions Resolved, relating to passport retention and travel with passports. The Opposition have no problems with those issues. That the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Code of Practice for Officers exercising functions under Schedule 1) Regulations My final comments relate to the draft Terrorism Act 2015 (S.I., 2015, No 217), dated 12 February 2015, a copy of 2000 (Code of Practice for Examining Officers and which was laid before this House on 12 February, be approved.— Review Officers) Order 2015. The order is helpful, as it (James Brokenshire.) clarifies information, gives proper powers and puts Resolved, forward a proper code of practice. It provides an That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for opportunity to clarify, in paragraph 7(1) of the Act, the Examining Officers and Review Officers) Order 2015, which was type of power and when it is exercised. I am pleased laid before this House on 27 February, be approved.—(James that it is subject to review by David Anderson QC, the Brokenshire.) independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, but given the sensitive nature of these issues, will the Minister assure me that David Anderson will be able to publish CIVIL AVIATION statistics on the use of the power and information on Resolved, the designation areas? It is important that these statistics That the draft Aviation Security Act 1982 (Civil Penalties) be presented to the House, if not the detail behind Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 2 March, them, as the Minister has undertaken today. be approved.—(James Brokenshire.) 231 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 232 Parliaments European Commission: National requirements of subsidiarity and proportionality. That Parliaments means a mandate to say no to other Commissioners, to say no to the European Parliament and to say no to outside lobbyists. I take heart from the fact that we have 5.3 pm in this powerful new role somebody who has previously gone on the record to say that the guiding principle The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign should be: and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): I beg to move, “Europe where necessary, but national where possible”. That this House takes note of European Union Documents The EU must follow this principle to begin to address No. 12425/14, the 2013 Annual Report from the Commission on the public disaffection in so many member states, in relations between the Commission and national parliaments, and part derived from a sense that the EU has intervened in No. 12424/14, the 2013 Annual Report from the Commission on matters better dealt with by member states themselves. subsidiarity and proportionality; recognises the importance of the principle of subsidiarity and the value of stronger interaction As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe said between national parliaments and the EU Institutions; deplores in this House only yesterday, the Government are the failure of the outgoing Commissioner for Justice, Fundamental encouraged that the new Commission work programme Rights and Citizenship to respond to national parliaments’ concerns has jobs and growth at its core, but the real test will be about the proposal to establish a European Public Prosecutors whether the Commission delivers on the early, promising Office; looks forward to the European Commission responding to signs and puts subsidiarity, proportionality and better the call of national parliaments and the European Council to regulation at the very heart of its work. strengthen national parliaments’ role in improving EU legislation; and welcomes the Government’s commitment to increasing the The reports for debate today focus on the mechanisms power of national parliaments in EU decision-making by strengthening available to national Parliaments to update the subsidiarity and, where possible, enhancing current provisions. principle through the so-called yellow card mechanism The motion stands in the name of my right hon. Friend and to influence Commission proposals through political the Minister for Europe, who sadly cannot be with us dialogue. In 2013, national Parliaments submitted 88 because he is currently giving evidence before a Committee reasoned opinions to the Commission, covering 36 different in the House of Lords. If he is unable to join us later, I proposals. That represented an increase from 2012, will ensure that he is updated on the points raised. when 70 reasoned opinions were issued, but the overall number remains low, and the Government are concerned Today’s debate relates to two European Commission about the reasons for that. We do not believe that it is annual reports for 2013—one on the principles of because there are few subsidiarity concerns. subsidiarity and proportionality and the other on the EU’s relations with national Parliaments. The question Year after year, most reasoned opinions have come of subsidiarity and proportionality goes to the heart of from the same few parliamentary chambers, with the the debate that national Governments and Parliaments Swedish Riksdag being the consistent front-runner. Some around Europe are having on reform of the EU. They parliamentary chambers have issued very few, or indeed are fundamental principles that govern whether the EU none at all. Here, the record is that in 2013 the House of should act, and if so, how. Commons issued five reasoned opinions and the House Evidence provided to the Government’s recently of Lords three. I agree with those who argue that the concluded balance of competences review found that existing mechanisms laid down in the Lisbon treaty do the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality had not work well enough or go far enough, but I note that not been sufficiently rigorously applied and that that the disparity in the number of reasoned opinions submitted had contributed to undermining the EU’s legitimacy. by different national Parliaments is striking, and I hope Where these principles are not rigorously applied, it can that all national Parliaments, both individually and also cost British business billions. Let me provide one through COSAC, reflect on whether there is more that example from the balance of competences review. The they can do to make full use of their existing powers. CBI assessed in its evidence that the prescriptive There are, as I have said, flaws in the system. The requirements of the agency workers directive undermined tight time limit of eight weeks from transmission of a subsidiarity and cost UK employers £1.9 billion a year, proposal to issuing a reasoned opinion is difficult, and largely in compliance costs and red tape. These concerns it does not allow sufficient time for national Parliaments need to be addressed, and it is incumbent on all EU to share information with each other, which we all know institutions to make sure that the treaty-based principles is crucial to delivering a yellow card. The scope and are applied across all aspects of EU business and throughout threshold of reasoned opinions required to trigger a the legislative process. yellow card are also factors. Parliaments should have In that respect, I welcome the early signs from the explicit powers to issue reasoned opinions on more than new Commission that it is going to take subsidiarity just subsidiarity. The mechanism should be explicitly and proportionality more seriously. First, Vice-President extended to proportionality, for example. Normally, a Timmermans, who was here last week, has a strong and yellow card is triggered when reasoned opinions represent explicit mandate to promote a new partnership with at least a third of national Parliaments, which means national Parliaments. During his visit, Mr Timmermans 19 votes. This threshold is clearly too high. said that national Parliaments should be at the heart of How, then, do we change the process? The Commission’s the debate on democratic legitimacy, as a bridge between response to the yellow card on the EPPO—the second the EU and its citizens. So there should be no repeat of ever—was unacceptable. It decided quickly, without the European Public Prosecutor’s Office yellow card additional evidence and despite Parliaments’ concerns, debacle, which neglected the legitimate concerns of to proceed with the original proposal. Along with a national Parliaments. Mr Timmermans has the overarching number of Ministers from other countries, my right power to veto any proposals that do not meet the hon. Friend the Minister for Europe—who I am pleased 233 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 234 Parliaments Parliaments [Mr Tobias Ellwood] The European Scrutiny Committee has understandably voiced its frustration that the triggering of that procedure to see in the Chamber—protested strongly to the did not result in the Commission’s either withdrawing Commission at the subsequent meeting of the General the proposal or changing it radically. That has, of Affairs Council. As the Government have argued before, course, prompted further debate about a range of different we believe that the EPPO controversy makes a case for procedures going by the names of differently coloured the introduction of a red card, which would allow cards—not just yellow but orange, red and even green national Parliaments to come together to block an cards, which will allow Parliaments to initiate proposals unwanted proposal permanently. if they so wish. If a system is established whereby I welcome the initiatives that have been launched by national Parliaments are given a voice and can come national Parliaments across the EU which are pressing together to lodge reasoned opinions or objections, it is for a stronger role. Twenty-nine parliamentary committees important that those objections are taken seriously and from 22 member states have written to the President of not simply ignored. the Commission calling for the establishment of a working group to consider a strengthening of their role, and Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Let us say Parliaments have produced many good ideas that the there is a really important issue to the British people Government support. They include enhanced political which causes them to vote in a new Government who dialogue with the Commission, the introduction of a promise to do what they want on it, and then that green card allowing Parliaments to work together to Government are advised it is against European law. recommend to the Commission either new legislation or What right should this House have to say, “This is the the amendment or repeal of existing legislation, and a will of the British people”? Dutch initiative for a late card, which would allow Parliaments to look at a proposal again at the end of Mr McFadden: The procedures we are talking about the legislative process. here are in line with European law. I think what the We will continue to press for those reforms, and, right hon. Gentleman is driving at is the question of working with Parliament, will hold the new Commission vetoes, and we do not have vetoes. It is important for to its promises. clarity, as well as the political debate between us, to be clear that these yellow card procedures are not national Parliament vetoes of the kind he may be referring to, 5.11 pm and there is a difference between the two. The objections to the establishment of the European Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): Public Prosecutor’s Office focused on the Commission’s Last night we debated the similar issue of the Commission’s own interpretation of subsidiarity, the comparison between work programme for this year. The programme expresses the new proposals and the arrangements already in commitments to better regulation and to focusing on place and the question of whether this proposal would the big things that the European Union needs to do, add value in combating fraud. The House of Lords has and that leads us to the issues of subsidiarity and issued a report on this matter, and it gave the following proportionality. Over the years, there has been much verdict: talk in the European Union of subsidiarity—a concept “We fear that under the Commission’s proposed model an whose origins lie in Catholic social teaching—but few EPPO enjoying exclusive competence for PIF crimes”— would claim that the EU has abided by the notion that it should act only when it has to, and should otherwise financial or fraud in the European Union crimes— leave things to the Governments of member states. “would be in danger of being overwhelmed by its workload, and its structure would not be sufficiently robust to enable it to The Minister gave the example of the agency workers monitor its investigations and prosecutions in the Member States. directive. In fact, the CBI reached an agreement with We see a similar problem with the Presidency’s alternative proposal. the TUC on that directive, and I think that the record The evidence we received on the proposed introduction of a should show their participation in order to present the collegiate structure into the EPPO overwhelmingly suggests that complete picture. this would complicate the prosecution of these crimes even further.” As the Minister said, we are debating two reports, the Its reservations about the proposal were clear, and we one on subsidiarity and the one on relations with national shared many of them, although for the sake of clarity Parliaments. They concern the interaction between the and completeness I should say that that does not mean EU and national Parliaments, and, specifically, the use that we on the Opposition Benches object to all European of reasoned opinions on EU proposals when, for instance, involvement in matters of criminal justice. Without Parliaments come together to invoke the yellow card rehearsing debates in the House on the European arrest procedure—that is, to ask the Commission to think warrant—that may be to the relief of all—we believe again about one of its proposals. According to the that that measure does have a useful role to play in reports, 621 written opinions, including reasoned opinions, combating crime both here and elsewhere in the EU. were submitted by national Parliaments in 2013, down Following all these exchanges and the rejection of the slightly from 663 the year before. The most common yellow card procedure by the Commission, there have subjects were the proposal to establish the European been proposals from a number of Parliaments, including Public Prosecutor’s Office, regulations covering the the Dutch and Danish Parliaments as well as our own, manufacture and sale of tobacco products, maritime for reforms to the yellow card procedure. We welcome spatial planning, access to ports, and matters relating to the Commission’s willingness, indicated by Mr Juncker, Europol. Opinions from 20 Parliaments were received to establish a working group on the role of national on the EPPO proposals, of which 13 were reasoned Parliaments in the EU, but it is important that that is a opinions, triggering the yellow card procedure. serious process and that it takes the suggestions for 235 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 236 Parliaments Parliaments different reforms seriously. We would also endorse the defence budget. It has a foreign policy courtesy of its sentiment in the Government’s response to the reports about 28 member Governments, not one of its own. So there the value of Commissioners appearing before national was a rightful role for national Parliaments to play Parliaments to explain and answer questions on the there, but, sadly, we have lost that kind of effective Commission’s actions and policies. We would like to see parliamentary scrutiny over even that collective action. more of that in the future. Today, we are asked to take note of two documents. The important point is that, however many opinions That is all we can do. are submitted or whatever the architecture of the yellow We should remind ourselves how we got to this card procedure, it will be seen to be of little value if it is situation. The Laeken declaration brought about the simply ignored. To refer to the question of the right current treaties—the so-called Lisbon treaty—and it hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), we do was a document signed by the leaders of all the European not seek to turn the legal basis of the EU on its head or Union member states in 2001, explaining what they make demands which are incompatible with membership, considered to be good about the EU and what problems but we do believe that dialogue between the Commission it faced. It recognised at that time the disillusion and and national Parliaments must take seriously not only wish for reform that was widespread across Europe. the sum of correspondence over the course of a year Those were the terms, in that declaration, that were but its content. given to Giscard d’Estaing’s Convention on the Future of Europe and it set out how he should work to respond. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Unfortunately, he did not comply with the instructions Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is not about he was given and he produced a European constitution. European laws, but about the fact that this House should That was discussed, modified and eventually signed in be expressing the sovereign will of the British people, rather October 2004 as what we now know as the Lisbon than our having a pale imitation of a referee’s code of treaty. conduct on the field of play? This process is farcical. Let me just read out what the Laeken declaration said This talk about red, yellow and green cards is an insult about the democratic challenge facing Europe: to the democracy of this country. This House should be “Within the Union, the European institutions must be brought making the decisions, as expressed in the democracy of closer to its citizens. Citizens undoubtedly support the Union’s this country. broad aims, but they do not always see a connection between those goals and the Union’s everyday action. They want the Mr McFadden: I shall give my hon. Friend a similar European institutions to be less unwieldy and rigid and, above all, reply to that which I gave the right hon. Member for more efficient and open. Many also feel that the Union should Wokingham: in 40-plus years of membership it has involve itself more with their particular concerns, instead of been clear that sovereignty is pooled and is not complete intervening, in every detail, in matters by their nature better left to Member States’ and regions’ elected representatives. This is even and absolute for this House. That is the nature of our perceived by some as a threat to their identity. More importantly, membership. Without going into too much detail, I however, they feel that deals are all too often cut out of their sight would repeat that improvements should be made to this and they want better democratic scrutiny.” procedure but I do not seek to make demands that are That was in 2001, and we are here today debating those incompatible with continued membership, although that very questions about the division of competences between is the agenda of some in this House. the Union and the member states. There are shortcomings in the reports; they revolve As we take note of these documents, we should look more around the volume of correspondence than the at how we can improve relations between the Commission content. If dialogue is to be real, the exchanges have to and national Parliaments and how we can make subsidiarity be taken more seriously and they have to be about and proportionality mean what they say. These will be content as well as volume. That is what we have to look matters for the next Parliament; but as a first step, we to in the future. can improve our own relations. Scrutiny of legislation, which is done marvellously by our European Scrutiny 5.20 pm Committee, is all very well, but it is generally too late. Mr Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): This may be The laws have already been made. They are already set my last contribution in the House, after 18 years here. I in stone. We can huff and puff and have debates and have always believed that we are, to coin a phrase, in discussions in this Chamber or in the various European Europe but not run by Europe. I have always believed committees, but what we really need to do is to be that one can be a good European but a pragmatic involved in the formation of policy at a very early stage. European who believes that this debate goes beyond We need to engage with our colleagues in the European red, yellow and green cards, and so on, as the hon. Parliament. They are elected by the same British electorate Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) as we are. To start with, we need to give them back their said. I discovered in 12 years serving on delegations to passes for this building, so that they can come and meet the Council of Europe and the Western European Union us. It is clearly ridiculous that their passes allow them to that many of the opinions expressed in this House are move around the House of Lords but that they are not expressed by our colleagues right across Europe in allowed to move around the House of Commons. They other national Parliaments. have to stop where the red carpet ends. I spent the years running up to the dissolution of the When we have the next Conservative Government WEU arguing with the European Parliament, the after the election, we need to make sure that we engage Commission and the Council about what the right form with the leaders across Europe in seeking to redress the of parliamentary scrutiny over European common security balance of power between Brussels and the member and defence policy is. Europe does not, whatever Mr Juncker states. We will call for engagement not just with the might have said in the past 24 hours, have an army or a Commission and with the European Parliament—with 237 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 238 Parliaments Parliaments [Mr Robert Walter] election has to go through the European test. Will changes in benefits that parties wish to see be legal or the Brussels elite—but in the national capitals of Europe. possible under the European Union? May we not find Members of this House may need to brush up on their that we are completely bound by predecessor Parliaments French, German or Italian and engage in dialogue with because they have signed up to legal requirements under our colleagues across Europe. They may be surprised European law that make it impossible for the House any that the frustrations expressed here about the lack of longer to control our own welfare policy? subsidiarity, the lack of proportionality, the lack of any Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Minister for real dialogue with national Parliaments, is shared across Europe encouraged me with his optimism because he Europe. said that welfare remained a national UK matter, but I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister for there is plenty of evidence that it already is not in many Europe will lead that charge, and I believe that that will respects. All sorts of policies have been looked at that I end in a decisive referendum that will result in our am told would fall foul of European law and regulation. future inside the European Union, but inside a reformed It is quite obvious, again, looking at the European European Union with a balance of competences between Union’s work programme, that it will intensify its activity the Brussels elite and the member states that all the in this area and make it even more difficult for a people of Britain and of Europe will respect. national Parliament to express the wish that it wants in its laws on welfare. The same is true of border controls, where we are signed up to the free movement of peoples 5.28 pm and that is now being ever more generously interpreted Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): This debate as giving the EU carte blanche and substantial control is central to what we do here in Parliament and to the over border and migration policy throughout the EU. promises that various parties will make to their electors We find ourselves in the position of debating today as we leave this place shortly and go into a general yellow cards and red cards to try to assert the will of election. national Parliaments, but it comes nowhere near the It used to be a fundamental principle of the House of task that we need to undertake as we seek to reshape Commons that no House of Commons properly elected our relationship with the EU. Even having a red card, could bind a successor House of Commons. That was a where national Parliaments collectively can block a new fundamental part of the British people’s liberties, because proposal, does nothing to tackle the problem that we they have to trust a House of Commons for up to five have this vast panoply of law already agreed, sometimes years to legislate and govern on their behalf, and they many years ago, which may prevent a national Parliament can do so safe in the knowledge that if we—those in from reflecting the will of its people. If we have to get government—do not please, they can dismiss us at the all or most of the other member states’national Parliaments following general election and elect a new group of to agree, that could still be extremely difficult, and an people who can change all that they did not like about individual member state, which had an overwhelmingly the laws and conduct of government of the Government strong national view on the subject, might be thwarted whom they have just removed. But our membership of because it just did not happen to be something that the European Economic Community, now the Union, worried the other member states. has increasingly damaged, undermined and overwhelmed We need to pause over this. I remember the excellent that essential precept, which was the guarantee of our words of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his liberties as the British people, because now there are Bloomberg speech. The Bloomberg speech wisely said huge areas of work that are under European law and that the fount of political authority in any European European control. So those parties that go out from this member state, but certainly in the United Kingdom, House into the general election and, for example, offer a rests from the national electorate through the national better deal on energy, may well come back and discover Parliament, and that, I think, is still right. We see that in that what they have offered is quite impossible under the recent conflicts and rows in a country such as Greece, the strict and far-reaching rules on energy that now which is under even more European control that we are come from the European Union. by being part of the euro. The Prime Minister reasoned Yesterday, we did not have time to debate in the that this country needs to negotiate a new relationship House the energy package, but within the proposals we with the EU that recognises that on really important were being asked to approve in the Commission’s work things—I would have thought that welfare, borders and programme was a strategic framework for energy policy energy were really important things—if necessary, the that, in turn, will spawn an enormous amount of detailed national Parliament can assert and interpret the will of regulation and legislation, making energy a European the British people. There should be some mechanism by competence almost completely. Therefore, more or less which we can then do as we wish, reflecting the will of anything that the main political parties say about what the people. they wish to do on energy policy during the next five We see at the moment the tragedy of Greece, where years will be possible only if it just happens that what these conflicts are much further advanced because the they wish to do is entirely in agreement with and legal European Union is much more intrusive on a euro under this massive amount of law and regulation that is member than on the United Kingdom. We have witnessed partly in place already and will come forward in ever- some very interesting things. Those on both Front Benches increasing volumes under the strategic framework and need to listen to and study this very carefully, because further legal policy, and that is but one area. their futures, as well as the future of our country, are A couple of other big areas that will be much debated very much at stake. The first remarkable thing is that in in the election are welfare and border and migration the most recent Greek general election the two former policy. Again, anything that parties say in our general traditional main parties—the equivalents of Labour 239 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 240 Parliaments Parliaments and Conservative—polled 33% between them. Those and if it has been approved in a general election, this parties, until recently, alternated in government. They had House can take action even if it means disagreeing with got into that parlous state because whatever they wanted the rules of the European Union. By all means, we can to do in the interests of Greece was blocked, modified try to negotiate an arrangement case by case, but where or amended because, in practice, decisions were made we cannot do that, we need an override—an opportunity by the euro group, the European Central Bank and the to say, “This thing matters too much to our democracy.” troika they came to hate. So the Greek people said, “It If we do not have that very simple change, we no longer doesn’t make any difference which of you two we have. have in this country a successful and vibrant democracy The socialists can’t be socialists and the capitalists can’t that can guarantee stability and guarantee to deliver be capitalists. You all end up with the same euro policy what the British people want. that is driving the Greek economy into the mire.” The poor Greeks have lost almost a quarter of their national Graham Stringer: I agree with basic thrust of the output since 2007. That this can happen in an advanced right hon. Gentleman’s argument, but is not most of western country is mind blowing. Half their young what he is suggesting impossible? Most of the rules people are out of work as a result of these policies. governing the European Union are bound up in treaties The two main parties had nothing to offer because that require 28 countries to decide to change them, and they either had to go along with the euro scheme in all that is simply not going to happen. Much as I agree its details or promise to disagree, but only in the full with his aspirations, I am afraid that they will not come knowledge that they would not be allowed to do so and about, will they? do anything different. Then the Greek people elected into government a challenger party, with no experience Mr Redwood: The hon. Gentleman may be right, so I of government, saying that it intended to break the hope that the British people have a referendum in which rules of the euro: it did not want the troika arriving and they may decide that they cannot live under such a telling them how to govern their country and did not regime without change. I would certainly vote to leave if intend to accept the bank details and loan packages flexibility cannot be built into the system along the lines that had been drawn up by the previous regimes. We that I have mentioned. He is a distinguished politician now see this gripping and gruelling conflict where the both locally and nationally, and surely he recognises euro area and the EU is telling Greece, “Well, we’ve got that when we need fundamental change, we have to news for you: these are the rules. We don’t mind that make the case for it and be optimistic. your electorate have just rejected it all. We don’t care I am not completely pessimistic because I do not believe that you’ve elected into government a party that completely that only Britain needs such a change. If this were just disagrees with us. You have no power in this. You the Britain being difficult—the island nation, on the edge Greek people, you the Greek Parliament and you the of the European Union, whose traditions are old-fashioned Greek Government have to accept these rules, because and whose idea that Parliament really matters is now those are the club rules.” old hat because we have moved into a new world—I do We heard a mild version of that attitude from the shadow not think we would win, but this is live, desperate spokesman, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton politics for very large parts of the euro area. South East (Mr McFadden), when I asked him whether, The issue is live politics for what remains of the on a mighty issue that matters a great deal to the British governing parties of the euro area because the path people, there should be a right for us in this House to trodden by the two leading parties in Greece, whose reflect their view and legislate accordingly. He said no, jobs have been taken by Syriza, could be trodden by the there should be no such right, and we have to follow all two leading Spanish parties given the rise of Podemos the rules of the European scheme. and by the Italian parties given the rise of the Five Star Throughout past years, when those rules related just movement and all the other pressure movements in to trading arrangements or industrial regulation, they Italy. Those countries are not immune to an insurgency could be irritating or vexatious, but they were not going challenge like the one in Greece. That sort of thing can to become game changers that mobilised the whole start to concentrate the minds of other member states British people against the whole scheme of the European of the European Union and their Governments. One Union. However, when the European Union rules start thing I have learned about Governments over the years to influence things that matter a great deal to people—their is that they quite like staying in power. When they feel welfare system, their benefits system, their borders or that there will be a very strong electoral challenge to their migration—that might start to create a much them, they may begin by condemning it—saying it is bigger reaction. When European rules and requirements irrational, unpleasant and all those kinds of thing—but have a devastating impact on an economy and employment if they think it is going to win, they have to do a deal prospects—fortunately not in this country, because we with it, understand why people feel as they do and make have kept out of that bit—that completely transforms some movement. the politics of that country, and we see the politics of My strong advice to the whole European Union is impotence, the politics of protest and the politics of that it needs to do a deal with the people who disagree frustration. with it, because the scheme is not working for all those I do not want our country to go down that route. people in the euro area. It needs to change policy, and it That is why I say that we need to negotiate now, before should do so before politics changes it. I do not want we get to that stage, an arrangement—not just a yellow our country, which matters most to me, to get anywhere card or a red card in conjunction with other member near such a point. I am pleased to have been part of the states—for us, the United Kingdom, to say that we are forces in this country that kept us out of the euro, which still a vibrant democracy. We need to be able to say that meant that we missed the worst—this country has a if something matters a great deal to the British people reasonable economic recovery that is completely unrelated 241 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 242 Parliaments Parliaments [Mr Redwood] force when a referendum was held, but it is not necessarily a strong force in the elected Parliaments. The same to the continent, with its long recession and deep troubles thing happened in Holland. in the southern territories—but as I see my country From time to time, I attend meetings of COSAC with sucked into common policies on energy, borders, foreign other members of the European Scrutiny Committee. affairs and welfare, I think that we might be sucked in COSAC is an organisation for representatives of the too far and have exactly the same problems on those national Parliaments and it includes some Members of issues that the euro area is already experiencing on the the European Parliament. However, Members of the central matter of economics. European Parliament are rather irritated that they have I urge Ministers to take this seriously and to re-read to listen to Members of the elected national Parliaments, the words of the Bloomberg speech. I urge the Opposition because they see us as interlopers in their preserve or to join us, because they aspire to govern this country. realm. They think, “We are elected European Members One day they may come up with really popular policies and we do not want these other Parliaments having and be elected on that basis, and what a tragedy it their say.” Nevertheless, we go to the meetings. Even would be if they discovered that they could not enact there, the overwhelming majority of Members are docile those policies because they were illegal under European supporters of the European Union and all its works. law. That could happen just as much to the Labour party as to the Conservative party. It is interesting that the British voices from the House of Commons are often very distinctive in being outspoken These are not some private arguments among and critical, and just in raising issues. We were in Italy Conservatives in some secret club of Eurosceptics held not so long ago and I said, “Well, what about the 13.2% in the privacy of the House of Commons; these are unemployment rate in Italy? What about those who are mighty arguments about the future of our continent arguing for the restoration of the lira?” Those voices are and our country and about the nature of democracy not represented at COSAC, but they are represented in itself. Accountability still rests with a national Parliament, the street outside. When politicians stop listening to the not with the European institutions. If there is to be trust voices in the street outside, they are in danger in the between politicians and the people, the national Parliament longer term. must be able to deliver when the people speak. We are in danger of that no longer being true, which is why a yellow card and a red card are not sufficient. It is also Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I was just why we need to answer the question: how do the British reflecting on how much I miss the time my hon. Friend people vote for what they want and how do an elected and I spent together on the European Scrutiny Committee. Government in Britain deliver it if it disagrees with Without wishing to entice the opprobrium of Government European rules? Members, I was also reflecting on my time as Minister for Europe, when I worked on the Lisbon treaty. In his conversations with colleagues in COSAC, has my hon. 5.44 pm Friend discussed the fact that a quarter of the written Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): May I apologise, opinions of national Parliaments relate to 15 legislative Mr Speaker, for arriving after the beginning of the proposals? Does he accept the logic that objections debate? I was detained elsewhere. I want to say a few from the UK Parliament have greater validity when the words, but will not speak for too long. legislation applies to the UK, as opposed to when the UK already has an opt-out? When it comes to the When I was a student, I read the works of Walter written objections from the UK and the conversations Bagehot, the 19th-century writer on constitutional matters that he has in COSAC, does he distinguish between who distinguished between what he called the decorative issues that apply to the UK and those that do not? and the effective parts of the constitution. Much of what happens around the European Union is decorative. The real power resides not with the elected bodies, but Kelvin Hopkins: I have not had conversations about elsewhere. Many people among the political elites of the those specific issues. However, there is everything to be various members of the European Union go to great said for making strong objections to anything that we lengths to ensure that the European Parliament and disagree with and for trying to overturn proposals for their own Parliaments have a comfortable majority of legislation if we do not find them acceptable. We would Euro-enthusiasts who will just go along with what the probably find quite a lot of support among the electorates political class wants. of many member states, even though we do not find it However, Euroscepticism is a major force. It is not among their politicians. Even in countries that have effectively represented in many Parliaments, but it is among voted against joining the euro, one will find that the the populace. I remind hon. Members of the referendums political class privately wants to join it. that the French and Dutch held on the proposed One country that has voted time and again—twice constitution. The Socialist party in France went to the now—to stay outside the European Union is Norway, extreme of having a ballot of its members and encouraging yet for a long time the political class tried to pressure its them to vote yes for the constitution, which they duly own people to vote to join it. I am a member of the did. It was assumed that the conservative party would all-party parliamentary British-Norwegian group and vote in favour of the constitution anyway.In the referendum, at a recent meeting with the Norwegian ambassador he the great majority of working people voted no. It was said that support for joining the EU had dropped to the working class and those on the left—and, no doubt, 11%, which is pretty decisive. Nevertheless, it is vital in some people on the right—who voted no because they any meaningful democracy that elected parliamentarians did not think that the constitution was in their interests. listen to the voices of their constituents—to the people Euroscepticism was therefore found to be quite a strong outside. 243 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 244 Parliaments Parliaments One reason I disagree so strongly with systems of When people talk about Europe but mean the European proportional representation is because they break that Union, they are trying to con us into thinking that link with electors. In a national list system, the only Europe can only have the European Union, but there people who matter are those who put candidates on that are alternatives. My alternative, which I put to the list—the party leaders—and not the people outside who academic researcher, was that we should have a loose vote for them. We have personal relations and contacts association of democratic member states with elected with our voters in single-Member seats, and as I mentioned Parliaments that meet and agree on issues for mutual in a debate yesterday, last weekend I spent six benefit, but that there should be nobody above those hours knocking on doors in my constituency and listening Parliaments telling them what to do. We could no doubt to what people had to say. That link is important in a have joint ventures on military aircraft, for example; we democracy. have done that from time to time. Concorde involved a I mentioned Bagehot, but more recently essayists joint agreement between France and Britain. We could from our own Chamber have contributed to a new have bilateral and multilateral international agreements book, “What They Never Told You about Parliament on all sorts of things. We could even agree to standardise and How It Should be Put Right”. Some of our colleagues the way in which we do things, but these should all from this House and another place have made a lot of involve mutual agreements between the various member suggestions for increasing the democratic power of this states, rather than having something imposed from a House in holding the Executive to account, which is very undemocratic bureaucracy above the member states absolutely right. I would also like more democracy of Europe. within parties to hold their leadership to account, but It would be a splendid idea to have a loose association that is perhaps a dangerously radical view that would of member states coming together to agree things that not be shared by some of my colleagues on the Front are of mutual benefit, and I would love to see that Bench. I have always believed in democracy being something happen. In a few months’ time, I shall be taking a that comes from beneath, rather than from the top. holiday in Italy. I normally go to France, but this year it When I was studying politics at university we covered will be Italy, and I shall enjoy Europe in all its glory. political constitutions, including the Soviet constitution However, I shall continue to be critical of the European that was written in the mid-1930s, no doubt by friends Union, which is not Europe. of Stalin. Clearly, a great democratic panoply of organisations and structures meant absolutely nothing 5.55 pm because all power resided in Stalin’s office. It is where Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It is power resides that really matters. If power is with the a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Luton people, that is what democracy should be about; if North (Kelvin Hopkins), who speaks such sense on power is with the elite and people have do what the elite these matters. It was also interesting to hear about his tell them, that is not democracy. All sorts of structures holiday plans for the summer, and I hope that he will may look like democracy, but if there is no power in the tell us more about them in future debates. hands of ordinary people, voters and their directly elected representatives, that is not true democracy. I am I turn immediately to the wording of the motion. Her not talking about anarcho-syndicalism or anything of Majesty’s Government like to say all the right things that kind; I am talking about representative democracy and do all the wrong ones. Let us look at the end of the of the kind we have now. motion, which proposes that the House I believe that in the European Union power really “welcomes the Government’s commitment to increasing the power resides in secret councils and the backrooms of the of national parliaments in EU decision-making by strengthening Commission. I heard a story from a Member of the and, where possible, enhancing current provisions.” European Parliament who some years ago stumbled by It sounds splendid that we in the national Parliaments mistake into an office in the Commission building, and should have an increased role and that there should be found themselves with a group of officials who were proper scrutiny within this House. But let us look deciding who was going to hold a certain post. They further into the Order Paper, where we find the European wanted a commissioner on social affairs. That sounds business and the debates set down to take place on the very socialist and left-wing, so they wanted somebody Floor of the House. We had one yesterday. How generous weak. They thought, “Ah yes, we’ve got this rather of Her Majesty’s Government to allow us, after months feeble commissioner from one of the smaller east European of delay, to debate an issue that had been suggested for countries. They won’t cause any trouble so let’s put them debate by the European Scrutiny Committee! forward”, and that is what happened. That is not democracy Turning to the future European business, however, either. I think we ought to elect our commissioners directly we see that no time or date has been set for the first from Parliament. That would be a good idea because we debate in the list, on the free movement of EU citizens, would have a say in who our commissioner is, rather despite its having being asked for more than a year ago. than them being appointed. These issues are fundamental. Debate No. 2 would be on strategic guidelines for EU Today I had a meeting with an academic researcher justice and home affairs to 2020. Debate No. 3— from Germany—a very charming, intelligent person. [Interruption.] Bless you! Debate No. 3 would be on the He said, “You’re a critic of the European Union. What rule of law in EU member states. Debate No. 4 should would you like it to be like?” I said, “I am passionately be on ports, a highly controversial matter awaiting the European in the sense that I love Europe as a continent discussion that was suspended in the Committee because of wonderful peoples, countries, cultures—everything the Government had not got their act together. No. 5 is about me shrieks ‘Europe!’. I love the music, art, wine, the topic that we are discussing now. No. 6 should peoples, languages—everything about Europe I love, cover the EU budget 2014, which is not a minor matter. but not the European Union, which is a political construct Indeed, it is rather important. When we discuss our own imposed on Europe; it is not Europe.” Budget, we have four days of debate on it, yet we are 245 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 246 Parliaments Parliaments [Jacob Rees-Mogg] where that desire comes from. It is fundamentally unhealthy and undemocratic and the Government must understand not even given 90 minutes for the EU budget. No. 7 on that many of us will complain if this continues to the list is the EU charter of fundamental rights. So happen. there are six further debates that we have not been given, yet today we are debating the Government’s Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP): Does wonderful commitment to increasing parliamentary scrutiny the hon. Gentleman recall the Prime Minister stating of European matters. expressly at the Dispatch Box that he would deliver a vote on the European arrest warrant before the Rochester There is a saying that fine words butter no parsnips. and Strood by-election? What happened to that promise? We get a lot of fine words from Her Majesty’s Government but the parsnips remain distinctly unbuttered, and as I Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Member represent a dairying constituency, I think it is about for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), who knows time we had some butter and got the debates that the only too well about that by-election. It is extraordinary European Scrutiny Committee has been asking for. that other people within government try to subvert the There is a considerable lack of wisdom in this approach— will of the Prime Minister. Our constitution works well this contumely towards the House. These debates take as the Prime Minister, as the head of the Government, place in an atmosphere of considerable cross-party shows leadership. However, there are then people, consensus. Those on the Opposition Front Bench rarely minions—I do not know who they are, as they will not cause any trouble in European debates, and the motions emerge or admit the role they play in undermining that are tabled are normally so anodyne that it is hard parliamentary scrutiny—who deliberately undermine to oppose them. The Government broadly say that they what the Prime Minister has promised. That is the most are in favour of motherhood, apple pie and democracy extraordinary state of affairs, Mr Speaker, as the Prime while giving away as many of our freedoms as they can, Minister needs your help to deliver on his promises. as quickly as possible. Furthermore, these debates do Your impartial help is needed to get the Prime Minister not end up being front-page news. out of a hole dug for him by his own officials. This is a Where the Government get into trouble, however, is quite extraordinary and regrettable state of affairs. through their lack of willingness to go along with what the European Scrutiny Committee has asked for. At Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is making that point, they run into procedural difficulties. We saw liberal reference to the Chair, to which I have no objection, that in spades over the European arrest warrant, and we but in so far as he is foraging in the undergrowth to try thought that the Government might have learnt the to find a solution to Parliament’s difficulties as we error of their ways and realised that trying to obstruct approach Prorogation and then Dissolution, he might the procedures of the House of Commons is an error. find that the shortage of allocated time is such that his They might have found from yesterday’s experience, only recourse is to seek a debate under Standing Order when an amendment was tabled on a subject that the No. 24. He should not be put in that position, but he Government did not want us to discuss, that the House can always have a go, with no promises and no advance would get its way in the end. It did so because, fortunately, undertakings. We should not be reduced to this state of we have a robust Speaker who ensures that the House affairs, but needs must. gets what it wants in the end. That is much to be welcomed. However, there should not be this constant Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful, Mr Speaker. I was battle between the European Scrutiny Committee and worried when you said that I was making liberal reference the Government to get that which the Standing Orders to the Chair; I hope that I was making Conservative of the House of Commons require. The Government reference to the Chair. Other than that, I am much come out with ridiculous promises and fine words but obliged for your helpful reminder of the Standing Orders simply fail to deliver on their promises. of the House. I do not want to go on for too long, as my hon. Mr Redwood: Could it be that the Government believe Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) has an their own propaganda? We are faced with having two important debate that will follow this one. In that Governments for the price of three in this country, context, I note that when I sit down before the full time a European Government and a United Kingdom for the debate is complete the Government will once Government, but the Government fondly believe that again say that the debate did not run for its full time and they are the sole Government and have not recognised that the desire for such debates is therefore not as much that there is a much bigger Government over there as we might think, so they do not need to give them in doing a lot of their work for them. They do not want us future. to look at that. Kelvin Hopkins: I know that the hon. Gentleman is being respectful to the hon. Member for Worcester Jacob Rees-Mogg: My right hon. Friend makes the (Mr Walker), but the obvious solution would be for him interesting suggestion that the Government are naive to spin out his speech to the end of the time. I would and foolish, and that is one way of looking at it. My certainly enjoy listening to it. view is that they are deliberate in their attempt to subvert the will of the House of Commons and its Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. efforts to debate things. My right hon. Friend is a I would hardly have begun my speech if I were going to generous and kindly figure, for which he is renowned go through all the intricacies it might be necessary across the land, whereas I am afraid that I am perhaps to cover, but I do not want to upset my hon. Friend the rather more hard-nosed on this occasion and think that Member for Worcester, who has a serious matter to there is a desire to run away from debate. I do not know discuss that concerns my constituency. 247 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 248 Parliaments Parliaments The Government must bear in mind that the debate is to seek redress of grievance through the European truncated out of the good nature of members of the Parliament in the way our constituents can seek redress European Scrutiny Committee and the Whips scurrying of grievance through this House. Indeed, one of my around asking whether we would be kindly. It has not concerns about the whole European project is that it been truncated because there is not a great deal to discuss. denies our constituents that proper redress of grievance When the answer comes back that we are not interested that they can get through the House of Commons. as we do not take the full time, that will be an untruth. I Crucially, the European Parliament cannot have am glad to see that the Minister for Europe is looking in democratic accountability because it does not represent my direction and notes that, because he never says anything a single people. When the issue of unemployment in other than the truth. I have great confidence in his Greece, Spain and Portugal came up in yesterday’s intellect, if not always in the answers that come from it. debate, it was absolutely instructive that there was a Proportionality and subsidiarity are of considerable complete lack of concern for unemployment in the importance. I am slightly suspicious of subsidiarity other member states of the European Union. There is because, as the shadow Minister the right hon. Member not a feeling that somebody unemployed in Greece is as for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) has important as somebody unemployed in Newcastle. Until said, it comes from the teaching of the Catholic Church. we have that fellow feeling—the feeling that they are The holy mother Church, to which I belong, is a great, one people with us—there cannot be a proper democracy. illustrious and historic institution, but if it is known for The jargon, clearly, is that without a demos there cannot one thing other than its piety, it is its centralisation of be democracy and there is not a single European people. power. It therefore strikes me that, if subsidiarity has Therefore, even if the European Parliament had Members been thought up by the holy mother Church, it is more who anyone knew about, and even if it was elected on a likely to be to do with reinforcing the authority of the system that anyone thought was a reasonable system to Holy See and of the papacy in particular than with elect people on, it would still not have proper democratic spreading it far and wide. I happen to think that, in the representation because it does not represent a single case of the Church, that is a thoroughly good thing. people. That brings us to the Commission, which I think is Mr Redwood: Is it not the other way round? We want the closest we get to democracy in the European Union. this House to be able to do the big things. We do not The Ministers represent their Governments and those want to be left with the crumbs from the table—we Governments have to command majorities in their respective want the main meal. Houses of Parliament. That brings us back to exactly where we want to be: the democratic rights of Parliament Jacob Rees-Mogg: I entirely agree with my right hon. and what Parliament should be able to do within the Friend and I was coming on to that. overall system and context of the European Union. The heart of the matter is the question of where we Ultimately, democratic accountability within Europe—that think democracy lies in the European Union. Does it lie thin thread of accountability that exists—is through the in the Commission? The answer, in fairly short order, is Commission to Parliaments. no. Every country has a commissioner and, as the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) has said, Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I hate to interrupt commissioners from very small countries sometimes get my hon. Friend in mid-flow, but I believe that he is very important briefs. It was the Maltese Commissioner talking about the European Council, not the European who finally decided whether neonicotinoids could be Commission. legal across the whole of the European Union. Malta has a population of about 250,000—which is tiny in Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am so sorry. I do indeed mean proportion to ours, let alone that of the whole of the the Council. The Council has that thin thread to the EU—and it was someone representing them who made Parliaments, which provides that democratic accountability. a decision for all of us without any democratic accountability because the Council could not come to a We then look at what those Parliaments can do. They decision. can have a limited amount of scrutiny but, as my hon. There is no election for European Commissioners—they Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter) said, are appointed by their home Governments. The President that mainly comes after things have been decided; the of the Commission represents Luxembourg, which is European Scrutiny Committee gets to look at things hardly the great bulwark of population and importance that have already reached a far stage in the approval for which one might hope. It is not exactly the Texas, or process within the whole European system. It is very even the Illinois, of the European Union. Relatively hard to stop anything at that point, so we then move on minor figures from their own domestic functions are to yellow cards. put forward as commissioners, with no support from, or knowledge of, the people living in the other member Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman, as ever, is states. Before he became a commissioner, very few people making an interesting and illuminating speech. Is not in the United Kingdom could have named the former one of the travesties and caricatures of democracy in Prime Minister of Luxembourg. There is no democratic the European Union the fact that the only body that accountability in the Commission. can propose new legislation is the European Commission, Perhaps there is democratic accountability in the not even the Council? European Parliament, but, if there is, it is of a most extraordinary kind. The d’Hondt system for electing Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely people is most unsatisfactory and means that most right. That is part of the control of the Commission people have no clue who their MEP is. It is very difficult and part of the anti-democratic set-up of the European 249 European Commission: National 10 MARCH 2015 European Commission: National 250 Parliaments Parliaments [Jacob Rees-Mogg] be the case. It is clearly open to this or a future Parliament to alter those arrangements should it choose to do so. Union, and I do not think that is accidental; were it However, although that is constitutionally possible, it genuinely democratic, it would never have evolved to its would bring about an immediate crisis in this country’s current state. relationship with the European Union. We get these sops, with this business of the yellow I think that it is important for us to remember that cards, of which only two have been accepted by the although there are some things that we find objectionable Commission, and one of those was immediately and frustrating about European Union decisions, sometimes dismissed—it said that the one for the public prosecutor the things that we find most valuable and beneficial to was not a matter of subsidiarity anyway and so it would our interests are those that other EU countries resent push ahead regardless. We have a threshold that is very the most. It is for that reason that I think the idea that hard to reach, and as a result of which nothing need one could simply have a unilateral right of veto for any happen, and a two-month period that makes it incredibly of the 28 member states simply does not work if the difficult for national Parliaments to get their responses European Union is to exist in a meaningful form. in within the limited time available. The red card would I agreed with my right hon. Friend the Member for be little better. Wokingham and my hon. Friend the Member for North What we actually need is for our constituents—the East Somerset when they talked about the lack of a people of the United Kingdom—to take back control European demos. After all, that is the very reason why, of their own Government. That might be possible through as my right hon. Friend pointed out, the eurozone renegotiation if the Government are robust, but the countries are finding it so hard to reconcile an economic problem is that at the moment the Government show no imperative towards greater integration, with the political sign of being robust or willing to push back to the reality that national electorates want to hold economic European Union. They come out with platitudes that policy decisions nationally accountable through their support the continuing accretion of power to the EU. own national democracies. They come forward with the fine words I have mentioned What the Prime Minister said in his Bloomberg speech, but never push on the difficult decisions. Yesterday the which I read and re-read constantly, is that this is a Minister for Europe told us that Switzerland wants to challenge not just for the United Kingdom—as it is—but pull out of one of the treaties and that it has to take it for every member of the European Union. It is the all or leave it all, but that is an outrageous position to Prime Minister’s commitment and intention to negotiate take if we are in favour of renegotiating for ourselves. a settlement between the United Kingdom and the rest I urge the Government to be robust, to support of the EU that is good for us and good for our partners, democracy and to make sure that, for once, what they and which achieves a balance between membership of say and what they do match. the European Union and a need for a measure of collective decision-making there, with the need for national 6.12 pm accountability and for the British people to feel that The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): Iam they are comfortable about their place in that European grateful to all Members who have taken part in this organisation. That is something to which the Prime brief but interesting debate. Like my hon. Friend the Minister committed himself in January 2013. I know he Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), I is completely determined to deliver that. am conscious that there is other important business to Question put and agreed to. follow, so I will keep my remarks very brief indeed. Resolved, I take note of the points made by my hon. Friend the That this House takes note of European Union Documents Member for North East Somerset about remaining No. 12425/14, the 2013 Annual Report from the Commission on outstanding debates, but I point out that there have so relations between the Commission and national parliaments, and far been 51 debates on European Union matters on the No. 12424/14, the 2013 Annual Report from the Commission on Floor of the House during the course of this Parliament, subsidiarity and proportionality; recognises the importance of whereas previously the custom was to have perhaps two the principle of subsidiarity and the value of stronger interaction between national parliaments and the EU Institutions; deplores such debates a year. the failure of the outgoing Commissioner for Justice, Fundamental My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham Rights and Citizenship to respond to national parliaments’ concerns (Mr Redwood) referred to the tensions that exist between about the proposal to establish a European Public Prosecutors national democracy and the reality of how decisions are Office; looks forward to the European Commission responding to made at European Union level. Of course, European the call of national parliaments and the European Council to strengthen national parliaments’ role in improving EU legislation; Union law is operative and has direct effect in this and welcomes the Government’s commitment to increasing the country only because Parliament has decided, through power of national parliaments in EU decision-making by strengthening the European Communities Act 1972, that that should and, where possible, enhancing current provisions. 251 10 MARCH 2015 School Funding Formula 252

Mr Speaker: Order. May I point out to colleagues Backbench Business that in addition to the hon. Member for Worcester and the Front Benchers, who need briefly to speak, there are School Funding Formula on my list nine colleagues who wish to speak? The hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to make a full contribution, 6.16 pm but I know he will find that helpful to weigh in the Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I beg to move, balance. That this House believes that, given the continued fiscal pressure Mr Walker: I thank my hon. Friend, who has always on the schools budget in the next Parliament, the speedy implementation of a fair and transparent school funding formula been a great champion for rural areas. is more urgent than ever. F40, the cross-party campaign formed more than It is a pleasure to open this debate and to speak on an 20 years ago to represent the lowest-funded areas, used issue that I have raised during each year of my time in to rail against a gap of hundreds of pounds in funding Parliament, and one that still needs addressing and between rural areas and their urban areas, and in never more urgently than in the run-up to a crucial Worcestershire, local MPs spoke out against a gap that general election. I hope today’s debate can inform the doubled during the 13 years of the previous Labour manifestos of all the main parties and lay down a Government. Until the current year, it had never once challenge for the next Government to deliver on. declined. When the gap started, there was no justice in Today’s motion has cross-party support; more than the fact that similar schools serving similar catchments 64 Back Benchers from across the House have signed it. with similar levels of deprivation on different sides of a I am very grateful to the Backbench Business Committee random border could receive wildly different funding. for recognising that it is an urgent and important enough As the gap has widened, so the challenge for schools to matter to merit debate in the main Chamber. I am also raise the attainment of all their pupils has become very grateful to the two vice-chairs of the F40 campaign, greater and the challenge to hold on to their best who are both in their places: the hon. Members for teachers bigger. Although the pupil premium has helped North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) and for Scunthorpe some schools in F40 areas, it has also added to the (Nic Dakin). We are here to correct a long-standing disparities by piling targeted funding for deprivation on injustice, and it is a credit to Parliament that there is top of the untargeted funding that went before. such a strong turnout. Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Does my We have seen some progress on this issue, but the key hon. Friend agree that there is particular difficultly in decisions on the shape of a new national funding formula fast-growth areas, such as Devon, where there are large have been delayed until after the 2015 spending review. distances to take children back and forth to school? To say that that was disappointing in a place such as Worcestershire, which has lingered at the bottom of the Mr Walker: My hon. Friend is undoubtedly right that funding table for far too long, would be an understatement. there is a problem in fast-growth areas. As I shall explain One local head teacher, in a letter to our local paper, shortly, per-pupil funding is crucial to this debate. recently described it as “immoral” that the issue of fair funding has been unaddressed for so long. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I want to draw the Local MPs have repeatedly made the case for a new House’s attention to Ofsted’s excellent report on the formula that is based more on activity and the characteristics long tail of underachievement, which identifies rural of schools and their catchments, and less on accidents and coastal areas among those parts of the country of geography. We have attended debate after debate on facing difficulties, as is precisely reflected in the F40 group. this issue, and not just in the current Parliament. Colleagues Is that not one of the reasons we have to tackle this with experience of previous Parliaments have often problem? regaled me with their efforts to press this issue and Mr Walker: I agree. point out the glaring disparities that affect their schools and constituents. Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) Yet again, my hon. Friend is leading off the debate—in (Con): My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have been 10 years in the House, I have raised this matter only here since 2001 and this has been a thorny problem eight times, so I stand behind him in that respect. Does since then. I was in the same intake as the Minister, who he agree that the Government did the right thing last is in his place. I hope that when he gets the chance to year by closing the gap a little but that we need all speak he will address the situation in Somerset, where parties to commit to a new funding formula in the next we face the same problem as Worcester. Parliament, as the Conservative party has done, to ensure that we have a fair and just settlement, not just in Mr Walker: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We rhetoric but in reality? have seen the gap between the best and worst-funded authorities continue to widen long after the flaws which Mr Walker: I absolutely agree with the Chairman of caused it were acknowledged. the Education Committee and join him in that plea to all parties to deliver a fair funding formula, as has been Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I thank promised. my hon. Friend for leading this debate. In Devon, we have now seen £193 in extra funding per pupil. That is Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): The other point great news, but there is still a big gap to fill, especially that surely needs addressing is the pupil premium. Although with so many small rural schools and a sparse population. we all support it as a principle and in its effects, is it not We do a very good job with very poor funding. I look to a blunt instrument, because it skews an already unfair the next Parliament to do better. system? Does that not need reviewing? 253 School Funding Formula10 MARCH 2015 School Funding Formula 254

Mr Walker: What needs reviewing is the underlying The only challenge now appears to be the political system of school funding to create something fairer and will to deliver. We are beginning to hear from all the more transparent. I believe that the pupil premium can parties what they will be offering in their manifestos. play a role in such a system, but my hon. Friend makes We hear that the Conservative party would protect the a good point. cash settlement for schools in per-pupil terms. The I welcome the fact that last year saw the first real step coalition is already targeting money per pupil numbers. forward. The schools Minister, with help from the The Labour party seeks to protect the overall schools Chancellor, was the first person to provide funding to budget and the Liberal Democrats to protect the whole address the funding gap. His announcement of what of the two-to-18 education budget. The problem with started as £350 million and then grew to £390 million of any protection for budgets as a whole is that it might extra funding to help the lowest-funded areas was a produce a reduction in per-pupil funding, as pupil genuine step forward and the first concrete sign that numbers are set to grow rapidly. It has been argued that real change was on its way. At the time, Members spoke Labour’s promise of an inflationary increase in this era of a down payment and welcomed the benefits for those of low inflation could deliver lower per-pupil funding who stood to gain. We queried elements of the allocation than the Conservative proposal of flat cash per pupil. and pushed for F40 areas to receive more of it, and Whatever the outcome of the election, it is clear that between the initial allocation and the second, the F40 areas there will be ongoing fiscal pressure on all our schools. did indeed receive more—so the parliamentary pressure It is perhaps understandable in that situation that Ministers made a difference. are keen to avoid turbulence, but avoiding turbulence This first small step will mean £6.7 million for has been the main reason for not going further and Worcestershire schools this year—an additional £97 per faster on school funding reform in the lifetime of this pupil—which will make a real difference from April Parliament. It can no longer stand. We need to make it onwards, and it will mean that this year, for the first clear that to translate any freeze in per-pupil spending time in decades, the gap between schools on our side of overall into a freeze in the unfair formula that currently the border with Birmingham and those on the other allocates it would be totally unacceptable. side will grow smaller rather than wider. However, cost We can see all too directly the pressures on schools in pressures on our schools will make these victories seem all of our constituencies. We know that those pressures minor. We will all have heard from teachers and head have built up not just in a few short years of tighter teachers in underfunded areas who say that costs are budgets, but over decades of comparative underfunding. running ahead of their funding. I have written to Secretaries It is simply not possible in these circumstances to justify of State and Ministers countless times with local examples. the £900 per-pupil gap between Worcestershire schools There is not time in this debate to enter into the and those in neighbouring Birmingham; the £700 gap complexities of the funding system itself—a system so that used to exist between Leicestershire and Leicester; devilishly complex that my hon. Friend the Member or the £550 gap between Devon and Bristol—still less for Gloucester (Richard Graham) compared it to the the mind-bogglingly vast gap between the best funded Schleswig-Holstein question—but fortunately, F40 has and worst funded authorities. In rich London boroughs a dedicated team of governors, teachers, heads, councillors such as Kensington and Chelsea, the per-pupil funding and council officers who have worked up their own is £5,866 and it is £6,221 in Islington, while in poorer proposed changes to the funding formula. Their analytical northern towns such as Barnsley it is more than £1,700 work has been robust, and their proposals would achieve less. a formula based on the nature of the school and its catchment, funding a small lump sum for secondary I say to Ministers and shadow Ministers that F40 has schools and a slightly larger one for primary schools to made detailed proposals for change and I hope that help smaller schools; providing a proportion of funding they can accept them. They should deliver us a fair formula for deprivation; and providing smaller proportions for and help us to close the gap between schools that have low prior attainment, English as an additional language missed out for far too long and those in the best funded and sparsity—there is more work to do on sparsity. areas. Overall, the allocation we have put forward would be more even, fairer and would target deprivation more Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): On the question effectively. The pressure on the education budget makes of sparsity, the rural schools of South Dorset are trying the timetable for delivering this new formula more to form multi-academy trusts, and what is so extraordinary urgent than ever. F40 members recognise that minimum is that the funding is different for each pupil, depending funding guarantees may be needed to smooth out the on which local authority they come from. This is another introduction of a new formula, but we are not prepared anomaly that we must sort out. to wait for ever while they are applied. We therefore call for the move to be conducted in a maximum of three years. Mr Walker: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The emergence of multi-academy trusts provides another We have come a long way. The argument for fairer argument for fairness in the funding system. funding has been accepted on all sides. We must now be clear that its non-delivery—whether it be for political or Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Will my hon. administrative reasons—would be totally unacceptable. Friend give way? To entrench the progress made, I urge the Minister to ensure that the £390 million already secured for the Mr Walker: I am afraid not, I am sorry. lowest funded areas should be baselined in the education The F40 finance group recently met Department for budget for 2016-17 so that the move to a new formula Education officials and discussed these proposals. The will start with that downpayment taken into account. initial feedback was very positive. It was clear that I challenge all parties to address that challenge and to under F40 proposals there would be more gainers and deliver the fair and transparent formula that our constituents fewer losers than under the current formula. deserve. 255 School Funding Formula10 MARCH 2015 School Funding Formula 256

Several hon. Members rose— Nic Dakin: It is indeed. We should focus on giving young people equal opportunities wherever they are. Mr Speaker: Order. I propose that the Front-Bench spokesmen should be called at or as close as possible to Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): As my 6.50, which would allow five minutes to each. That hon. Friend knows, debates about the school funding leaves 22 minutes and there are nine people on my list. I formula have been continuing for many years. I remember will leave hon. Members to do the arithmetic themselves. them taking place about 25 years ago. What is more It is not binding, but I invite Members to help each important is that a quarter of the further education other. budget is to be cut at Coventry City college.

6.28 pm Nic Dakin: My hon. Friend has made a good point, Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate the which illustrates the complexity of the issue and the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on his leadership challenges that it poses. For example, sixth-form colleges of this debate and on his leadership on this issue during currently receive no VAT relief, whereas other institutions this Parliament. He sets an example to us all. do. One political party is going into the next election promising to create 500 new institutions. We have to ask It is clear what the motion is asking the next Parliament ourselves whether that is good value for money when for: there is pressure on the basic budgets for young people “the speedy implementation of a fair and transparent…funding who are in our existing institutions. It is a simple formula” observation, and with that simple observation I shall on an acceptable time scale. Of course, what is fair and end my speech. transparent to one person is not necessarily so to another— and therein lies the challenge for the Front-Bench team Several hon. Members rose— when it is time to deliver. The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), the Chairman of the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Will Education Committee, is right when he says that this Members now try to stick to a two-minute limit? needs to be fair and just. We can all sign up to that, but, as the hon. Member for Worcester says, it should not be an accident of geography that determines how much 6.33 pm funding a school, a pupil or a student gets. It should be Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): done fairly and transparently. It is a pleasure to follow both the excellent speakers whom we have heard so far. We all agree on the need for Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): Does the a fair and transparent system. As has been said, much hon. Gentleman agree that, as we now have an extra of that is in the eye of the beholder. However, the chunk of money from the last Budget, it should be put Ministers in the last Government whom I lobbied knew on the baseline, as was suggested by my hon. Friend the perfectly well that the system was not fair, although they Member for Worcester (Mr Walker)? At least that would did not have the political courage to face down their give future Governments a fairer point from which to own people and say, “We are going to have to redistribute start. your funds to areas that we do not typically represent, Nic Dakin: Any progress should certainly be built on because that is obviously fair.” This is not just about by a future Government. North Lincolnshire, the area perception. I have never heard anyone attempt to explain that I represent, is historically underfunded. We stand why the present system is fair, because they cannot to benefit and to be a potential winner, but the change do so. The system is not fair. It is time for someone to must be smoothed for those who are less advantaged, recognise the need to do the right thing regardless of and I think that the F40 principles will help in that regard. party-political interest, which may be something of a Core entitlement at pupil level is the main building challenge. block that will give schools access to similar resources I am delighted that the Conservative party is committed for basic classroom costs, wherever those schools may to a new national funding formula, and I am also be, but pupil needs beyond the core entitlement will also pleased that the F40 group is presenting detailed proposals. be recognised. Factors such as deprivation, special Its members have worked out who will be losers and educational needs and the existence of small schools in who will be winners, to narrow the gaps. Whichever small communities should be taken into account. That party is in government, whichever system is used to is the second building block. As for the third, the fund schools and regardless of whether 16 to 19-year-olds existing dedicated schools grant structure should continue are protected, money will be tight, so we must have the to be part of the framework. I think that those three courage to do the right thing, and then find a way of principles will be helpful to any future Government. explaining it to people and carrying them with us. When we talk about school budgets, we should recognise The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) was that funding for those over 16 has been particularly right to say that we must do what all fair-minded people badly affected in recent years. would recognise as the right thing. I say that on behalf of the people in the East Riding of Yorkshire, the area I Richard Graham: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely represent. It is rural, coastal and absolutely has the right. It is hardest for schools with sixth forms, and problems the chief inspector of Ofsted has identified, those that do not have a very large percentage of yet from this coming year, although it will have slightly disadvantaged pupils who receive the pupil premium. more money thanks to the £390 million, it will be the Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is essential to get lowest-funded area in the country. If the Minister gets a the core funding right for the F40 group, so that those chance to do so in his time-limited five-minute speech, schools can balance their books in the next few years? perhaps he will say something about the technicality by 257 School Funding Formula10 MARCH 2015 School Funding Formula 258

[Mr Graham Stuart] It is essential that this money is now baked into the formula for the years between now and a new formula which, because of our high needs block funding, we got coming in, first, to ensure that the baseline is in a a disproportionately small amount of that £390 million, healthier place, but secondly, so that the schools that to add to our existing inequities. will now receive this money can have the confidence that it will be there not just one year at a time but for the 6.35 pm next few years, so they can, with confidence, go out and Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I just want employ additional staff with the resources available. to make one point building on the description of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) of Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I wholeheartedly the disparities between local authorities. My local authority, agree with my hon. Friend, and we are both co-signatories Solihull, has £1,300 less per capita than neighbouring of this timely motion, but does he share my frustration Birmingham, but we school 7,000 pupils over our borders that this gap widened at a time when schools were from Birmingham and Coventry, and unlike the principle receiving the more generous settlements and that it is in health where the money follows the patient, the hard to conceive how a set of Ministers will be able to money does not follow the pupils over the border. I fully rapidly close this gap in the context of flat cash per support F40’s pursuit of a fair funding formula, but I pupil funding settlements in the future? specifically impress upon the Minister that this irregularity between health and education needs to be sorted out in Sir Nick Harvey: There will be a continued period of the short term before the schools that are trying to tough public finance and that undoubtedly makes it educate pupils from over their borders with less money even more difficult to perform these sorts of adjustment, find it impossible to do so. but it is vital that these changes take place, and to have 6.36 pm the confidence to do that we need to get them right and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): May ensure that sparsity actually means something and does I very briefly, in the two minutes available to me, pay not have a completely perverse set of effects, as it does tribute to my teachers and governing bodies in the at the moment, and that the money will be there to schools in Gloucestershire, that often with very little phase this in until it can be completely done. money and at the bottom of the F40 league, achieve outstanding Ofsted results? Gloucestershire gets a dedicated 6.39 pm schools grant of £4,200, compared with nearly £6,700 for Camden. That cannot be equitable. Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I shall be very We have to end this system. We should have a national brief, Mr Deputy Speaker. First, may I, too, pay tribute funding formula with special needs and all the other to all the local teachers in my constituency, who do a factors—rurality, deprivation—taken into account, arguing fantastic job in a lovely rural area? My local educational up from the minimum. Unless we start somewhere and authority has three points that it is especially concerned start soon with a floors and ceiling system, we are never about and it agrees with all the points raised by F40. going to get an equitable system. To enshrine the current First, on sparsity, our area contains little schools struggling system under a capped budget is simply unfair, and I to survive in rural parts of the country, and if those ask the Minister to recognise that unfairness. It is quite schools went, our children would simply not get the wrong that there is a postal code lottery, so that where education that they deserve or need. Let us not forget someone lives determines how much their child gets that children are the next generation; they are the future funded. Please can he end this unfairness? of this country and we must value them equally. Secondly, fairer funding should be achieved by the end of the next 6.37 pm Parliament, at the latest. Lastly, opportunities should Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): This problem be equal for all children. The children in South Dorset, has grown up over several decades. It is not something wherever they come from, should be valued the same as which has sprung up under this coalition, nor even every other child in the country, and the money that under the last Labour Government. It has come on over goes towards them should represent that fact. a period of decades—since the second world war, really— and I am delighted that this Government, and the two 6.40 pm parties represented in this Government, have committed themselves to a new funding formula to be implemented Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): As I walk out of in the next Parliament, and I hope we will hear from the Heddon-on-the-Wall St Andrew’s Church of England Labour Front-Bench team that they are committed to first school and go down the hill into Newcastle, I lose that as well. £1,000 per pupil over the course of 300 yards. That is As this has not happened in this Parliament, we utterly illogical, and the disparity cannot be continued. are reliant, as a short-term measure to get ourselves I endorse all the comments made by my hon. Friend the through the interim, on the down-payment colleagues Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) and others. On the have talked about of some £390 million for the coming pupil premium, I make the point that although we all of year. That is most welcome. My local authority of Devon course support it, it is genuinely skewing an unfair is the sixth-worst funded in the country, and it will receive system and giving us a system that is manifestly not about £200 per pupil as a result of this uplift. I mention acceptable. I pay tribute to all the schools, governors in passing that F40 put to the Department for Education and teachers in my region of Tynedale and Ponteland, some alternative proposals on how this money might who produce outstanding education, despite the great have been dispensed, which would have given pupils in disparity. They helped me to lobby Ministers, not least Devon £400 per head, but the money is nevertheless the Minister for Schools, who came to Hexham and met welcome. many of them approximately 18 months ago. 259 School Funding Formula10 MARCH 2015 School Funding Formula 260

The additional £390 million allocation of minimum on them and we are seeing a widening gap as a result of funding levels resulted in £12 million-plus going to that lack of support, which is why it is such great news Northumberland, which is genuinely a lifesaver for our that after a huge amount of effort from many people schools. We need a firm commitment from all parties in throughout Cambridgeshire, on an issue that I have this House that that level of minimum funding increase prioritised, my right hon. Friend the Minister was able will form part of the baseline funding for 2015-16, so to give us £23.2 million a year extra, a 7.9% increase. that at the very least all schools can then plan for the That is a large sum and very welcome, but it fills only future. about half the gap which leaves a typical primary £250,000 a year below the English average. It still leaves Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I completely us with problems for a number of schools subject to agree with my hon. Friend. There is a massive disparity minimum funding guarantees, which will not see all the in my area, which is sandwiched between Leicester, benefits—typically, smaller urban schools. That problem Coventry and Birmingham, which get hundreds of pounds will continue as long as we do not have a proper extra in funding a year per pupil. Does he agree that national fair funding formula. I am, however, grateful that needs to change—it is vital that that happens—because that we have got some more money, finally, for school my local schools are trying to get staff in a market capital because we are growing fast as well as being where those other schools have far higher levels of grossly underfunded. That will make a huge difference. funding? I massively welcome the pupil premium, which is making a difference to lives in my constituency and in the Guy Opperman: I endorse what my hon. Friend says. county. I welcome free school meals, which is making a He should try coming to the most rural and sparsely difference to pupils in the county. But until we have a populated constituency in England, Hexham, in national fair funding formula, we will not get a fair Northumberland, where he would understand the complex settlement. difficulties we face; the situation he describes is exacerbated in spades there. Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): Does my hon. Although the 7% budget increase that the schools Friend agree that there is no reason why the introduction will enjoy on 31 March or 1 April is clearly very helpful, of a new funding formula should jeopardise other elements we need to plan and go forward. We have yet to hear of spending in the two-to-19 education budget? from the Labour party, which was in government for 13 years and did nothing about this, but the argument Dr Huppert: Indeed. We need the national fair funding appears to be won, because when we look at the formula, free school meals and the pupil premium. That co-signatories of F40, we find that they come from package is the right one. across the House. While strongly urging that we get an increase and that the sparsity factor is addressed, I 6.46 pm entirely endorse the motion. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): The hon. Member 6.43 pm for Worcester (Mr Walker), whom I congratulate on raising this matter, referred to the observation of the Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I shall be hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) that brief, Mr Deputy Speaker. Every child deserves a fair this subject resembles the Schleswig-Holstein question. level of funding. The fact that so many Devon MPs are As I recall, Palmerston said that of the three people here today demonstrates how strongly we feel about who knew the answer to that, one was dead, one had being the sixth lowest funded authority. We get £4,602 gone mad and the other one had forgotten the answer. per pupil, which compares with a national average of Perhaps that is why it has been so difficult for the £5,082—there is a funding gap of £41 million. We face Government to do what they pledged to do at the specific problems and I wish to mention two. First, the beginning of this Parliament: to introduce—[Interruption.] existing formula contains no recognition of high-growth I am struggling to make myself heard because the areas, of which Devon is one. As a result, Devon has to Parliamentary Private Secretary is saying that it is ridiculous set aside £1.5 million to deal with growth every year for to suggest that it was difficult for the Government to the next seven years. Secondly, the transport costs are introduce what they pledged to introduce at the beginning completely ignored. We have 16,051 children being bused of this Parliament—that is, a national funding formula. to school every day—that is 33% of the transport It has been extremely difficult. budget. I thoroughly recommend the F40 proposals. They need to be introduced as a matter of urgency. If That is why the Schools Minister last year, rather they were, I am pleased to say that Devon’s children than do what was promised in the coalition agreement would be better off by £205.64 per pupil by 2015-16. and introduce that new national funding formula in the Roll on the change! course of this Parliament, decided, understandably, to throw some money at it. I am not criticising him for finding it difficult to tackle this Schleswig-Holstein-style 6.44 pm question with which he has been wrestling for some of Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I will, of course, the past five years. be brief. School funding has been an issue in my constituency and my county for about 30 years, when Richard Graham rose— we have been grossly underfunded and nobody did anything about it. We are currently the worst funded in Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD) rose— the entire country—£600 per pupil per year below the English average. That hits on the schools. Teachers do a Kevin Brennan: I will give way first to the hon. Member great job and pupils work hard, but it puts a huge strain for Gloucester, as I mentioned him. 261 School Funding Formula10 MARCH 2015 School Funding Formula 262

Richard Graham: That is very kind of the shadow Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con) rose— Minister. The reason why I used the Schleswig-Holstein analogy was that if one looks at the funding for Kevin Brennan: I would be delighted to give way, but I Gloucestershire at £4,195 per head and compares the cannot if I am to allow the Minister time to speak. schools that we have, which are multicultural, urban, [Interruption.] Hon. Members know I would be delighted inner-city schools, with those of Birmingham, which to give way if we had more time, but I must wind up my get £5,210—over £1,000 more per pupil—it brooketh remarks if I am to be fair to the Minister and give him no understanding. Does the shadow Minister agree? an opportunity to respond. We do need a fair funding formula, but let us Kevin Brennan: I know the hon. Gentleman is not the acknowledge that it needs to be transparent, and let us one who is dead, I know he is not the one who is mad, all acknowledge, including the Minister, that there will and I do not think he has forgotten the answer because be winners as well as losers in any such process. When he has tried to provide us with it, but as I said last year the Government laid out their original plans for a when we debated the subject in Westminster Hall, I national funding formula, they did not outline the accept that there are undoubtedly wide disparities in details. They had to let the Institute for Fiscal Studies funding among different areas. Some of those disparities— do it for them. It showed that their plans would have [Interruption.] Again, I am being barracked by the resulted in at least one in six schools losing 10% of their PPS. If he wants to intervene, I will be happy to give budgets, that one in 10 would gain at least 10% and that way. If not, I give way to the hon. Member for Somerton nearly 20% of primary schools and 30% of secondary and Frome (Mr Heath). schools would experience a cash-terms cut in funding. That is why it is not easy. That is why Ministers have not Mr Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I been able to deliver on what they said they would do in was one of the founder members of the F40 group back the coalition agreement. I do not criticise them for that in 1996 as chair of education in Somerset, and signed because it is difficult. We need to find a way forward, on up to it with a lot of Labour colleagues who then ran a cross-party basis, on a national funding formula. The county councils, who were equally incensed about this type of party political sniping we have heard tonight issue. I do not understand—this relates to the point will not help to achieve that. made earlier—why this anomaly was not dealt with when school budgets were rapidly rising. Of course that is more difficult in a period of austerity. 6.52 pm The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): We have Kevin Brennan: As confirmed in a House of Commons had a short but on the whole excellent debate. I congratulate Library note, the hon. Gentleman is correct to say that my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) education funding has fallen by the greatest amount in on his leadership of the campaign, on opening the real terms under this Government, and that secondary debate, and on putting the case so powerfully and in a funding has borne the greatest burden of that, with it way that sought to unite Members across the House. I facing a 7.6% cut in real terms during the course of this also pay tribute to the other hon. Members who spoke, Parliament. However, people have forgotten that the who in most cases have been involved in the campaign last Government started this process with a pledge to for quite some time, including the hon. Member for have a national funding formula, which the coalition Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), my hon. Friend the Member Government promised would be delivered during the for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), the Chair of course of this Parliament, but they have been unable to the Education Committee, my right hon. Friend the fulfil that promise because it is not easy. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), and my hon. Friends the Members for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), Mr Jim Cunningham: It is a little rich for the Government for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), for South Dorset parties to raise this issue when they have had five years (Richard Drax), for Hexham (Guy Opperman), for to sort it out. One would think they were not in government. Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), for Norwich South But there is a more important point here. [Interruption.] (Simon Wright) and, of course, my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who has done Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. In such a fantastic job in representing his constituents’ fairness, I have tried to make sure that every Member interests on this issue of revenue funding in the same had a chance to speak. At least respect those who way as he has done on capital funding. As he noted, as a intervene and answer from the Front Bench. consequence of those representations, parts of the country, such as Cambridgeshire, which were underfunded for Mr Cunningham: It is a little rich Government Members many years under the last Government, have at last seen talking about young people when they are cutting further a massive move towards fair funding. education budgets, as they have at City college in Coventry I do not want to make a partisan speech, particularly by 24%. What does my hon. Friend think about that? after the good example set by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester, but I was a little disappointed Kevin Brennan: In fairness to the Government parties, by the shadow Minister’s response. He might at least they have acknowledged that there was record investment have started with an apology for doing nothing in the in education under the last Labour Government. It is a last 13 years to correct the problems in the funding fact that we have suffered—check the House of Commons formula. I thought that we might have had a clear plan note—a real-terms cut during the course of this Parliament. from the Labour party, given that he had so much to Under the plans outlined, certainly by the Conservative criticise about the coalition’s policy, on how he would party, there will be real problems with school funding in introduce a national fair funding formula. What I heard the next Parliament. was something of a policy free zone of a speech. Perhaps 263 School Funding Formula 10 MARCH 2015 264 the lack of support behind him on the Labour Benches for Worcester, whose area gains some £100 per pupil—an indicates the lack of enthusiasm among members of his increase of just over 2%—as a result of the changes for party to sort out the injustices that have dogged our which he lobbied. My hon. Friend the Member for North funding system for so long. Devon has been a great campaigner on this issue for When this Government came to power in 2010, the many years and has helped to secure an uplift of about funding system for schools that we inherited at the start 5% in his part of the country. My hon. Friend the of the Parliament was opaque, irrational and unnecessarily Member for Cambridge has helped to secure a huge complex at both national and local levels. Similar pupils increase of about 8% for funding in his part of England—an were funded at vastly different levels simply because additional £311 per pupil that will make a massive they happened to be in different local authorities or in difference to schools. This is only one step in the transition different types of school building. Previous Governments to fairer funding and a national funding formula, but it knew that the school funding system was unfair but is the biggest step towards fairer schools funding in a failed to reform it. decade. The three major reforms over this Parliament do not, Mr Redwood: Would the Minister suggest that there of course, complete the reform of school funding. We should be a limit on how big the gap can be between the recognise that we still need to introduce a full formula best and the worst per-pupil level of funding, as that to ensure that pupils with similar characteristics attract would be a starting point for getting some justice? the same level of funding regardless of where they live. Nevertheless, I am proud that the changes we have Mr Laws: That is certainly a sensible principle, and it made have delivered the big improvements that we have is exactly what we have tried to do through many of our seen. They put us in a much better position than we reforms. were in at the beginning of this Parliament. We now Throughout the Parliament we have introduced major have to do the important preparatory work that will be reforms that have improved the fairness and simplicity necessary to put in place a national fair funding formula of the system and laid the essential foundation stones to in the next Parliament. We also need to review funding allow us, the two coalition parties, to introduce a full on deprivation to make sure that it is fair across the national funding formula in future. The major reforms whole country, and that we can build on the enormous we have made are changes to the local funding system, improvements made in this Parliament and the massive and changes to the way in which we fund disadvantage, contribution that the pupil premium has made. with the introduction of the pupil premium and minimum We are now in a position to finish the job of introducing, funding levels. Time does not allow me to speak in detail for the first time in decades, a fair funding system for about the first two changes, but I would like briefly to schools in this country. Once we have long-term spending say something about the third—minimum funding levels. plans, we will be in a position to introduce, in a stable We introduced minimum funding levels last year. I and sensible way, the full national funding system for thank not only all the Members who lobbied for that schools for which Members have argued. Both governing change in the system but the excellent officials in our parties in this House—both coalition parties—have put Department who worked hard, over a sustained period, on the record very clearly their commitment to a national on the new model. This Government have introduced fair funding formula. Those of our constituents who the first reforms to the distribution of funding between care about this issue can best ensure the delivery of this local areas in over a decade. In 2015-16, every local area policy through the choices they make— will attract a minimum level of funding for each of its pupils and schools. The £390 million increase in funding 7pm that we introduced as part of minimum funding levels Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). represents a huge step towards removing the historical unfairness of the schools funding system. It ensures an immediate boost to the least fairly funded authorities Business without Debate and puts us in a much better position to implement a national funding formula in the next Parliament. All the logic of the reforms we have made indicates that GOVERNANCE COMMITTEE STANDING they should be baselined into funding in the next Parliament. ORDER CHANGES I can certainly make that commitment on behalf of my Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing party; it is for others to make commitments on behalf Order No. 9(6)), of their parties. That the following amendments to Standing Orders be made with effect from the start of the next Parliament: Mr Graham Stuart: Will the Minister give way on that point? Standing Order No. 144 (Finance and Services Committee) In the title and in line 2, leave out “and Services”. Mr Laws: I will not, I am afraid, because of the lack Line 5, leave out “Management Board”and insert “Executive of time. Committee”. In the next Parliament, multi-year spending plans Standing Order No. 139 (Administration Committee) will allow us to give certainty to local authorities and Line 8, leave out “and Services”. schools about how we transition to a national funding formula. Meanwhile, no local authority or school will Line 13, leave out “sixteen” and insert “eleven”. lose out from the introduction of minimum funding Line 14, leave out “of whom five shall be a quorum”.— levels from 2015-16, but about four in 10 areas will gain. (Harriett Baldwin.) We have already heard from my hon. Friend the Member Question agreed to. 265 Business without Debate10 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 266

DELEGATED LEGISLATION Code of Practice) Order 2015, the draft Retention of Communications (Code of Practice) Order 2015 and the draft Authority to Carry Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Scheme (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2015 and the motion in the Order No. 118(6), name of Secretary Chris Grayling relating to the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015; the Speaker shall put the Questions ROAD TRAFFIC necessary to dispose of those Motions not later than three hours That the draft Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Consequential after the commencement of proceedings on the first of those Amendments) (No. 2) Order 2015, which was laid before this Motions; and proceedings on those Motions may continue, though House on 16 January, be approved.—(Harriett Baldwin.) opposed, after the moment of interruption; Question agreed to. (2) Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing apply to the Motion in the name of Secretary Patrick McLoughlin Order No. 118(6), relating to the draft Drug Driving (Specified Limits) (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2015; and

IMMIGRATION (3) notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 20 That the draft Immigration (Health Charge) Order 2015, which (Time for taking private business), the private business set down was laid before this House on 2 February, be approved.—(Harriett by the Chairman of Ways and Means may be entered upon at Baldwin.) any hour, and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, for three hours, after which the Speaker shall interrupt the Question agreed to. business.—(Harriett Baldwin.) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6),

COMPETITION PETITIONS That the draft Groceries Code Adjudicator (Permitted Maximum Financial Penalty) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 28 January, be approved.—(Harriett Baldwin.) Radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital Question agreed to. 7.2 pm EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing This is one of three linked petitions. The other two are Order No. 119(11), from the Stevenage and the Hitchin and Harpenden constituencies. My hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage EU DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE:EUROPEAID’S (Stephen McPartland) has placed his petition in the bag EVALUATION AND RESULTS-ORIENTED MONITORING today, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin SYSTEMS and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) will present his shortly. That this House takes note of unnumbered European Union Document, the European Court of Auditors’ Special Report No. The petitions are from local residents. They highlight 18/2014: EuropeAid’s evaluation and results-orientated monitoring the very tiring journey that cancer patients currently systems; welcomes the report as an important assessment of the have to make from north Hertfordshire to London for EU’s performance in this area; and supports the Government’s radiotherapy, and call for a centre at the Lister hospital efforts to closely monitor the Commission’s progress in implementing in Stevenage. This petition has 4,211 signatures. the Court of Auditors’ recommendations, and in pressing the Commission to implement improvements in both evaluation and The petition states: monitoring.—(Harriett Baldwin.) The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Question agreed to. urges the Government to encourage NHS England to provide a radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital in Stevenage in order to make the journey for radiotherapy treatment much easier for DELEGATED LEGISLATION patients who live in Letchworth Garden City and the surrounding Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing towns and villages. Order No. 118(6), Following is the full text of the petition: [The Petition of residents of the constituency of North PUBLIC HEALTH East Hertfordshire, That the draft Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 23 February, Declares that patients who are residents of Letchworth be approved.—(Harriett Baldwin.) Garden City and the surrounding towns and villages have The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision on the to travel to Mount Vernon Hospital in Hillingdon to Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until receive radiotherapy treatment and that this journey is Wednesday 11 March (Standing Order No. 41A). long and exacting and often has to be made on consecutive days. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Commons urges the Government to encourage NHS England Ordered, to provide a radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital in That at the sitting on Monday 16 March— Stevenage in order to make the journey for radiotherapy (1) the provisions of Standing Orders No. 16 (Proceedings treatment much easier for patients who live in Letchworth under an Act or on European Union documents) and No. 41A Garden City and the surrounding towns and villages. (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motions in the name of And the Petitioners remain, etc.] Secretary Theresa May relating to the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Acquisition and Disclosure of Communications Data: [P001441] 267 Business without Debate10 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 268

Compulsory CPR and Public Access Defibrillator Following is the full text of the petition: education [The Petition of residents of Cambridge, Declares that all young people should leave school 7.3 pm knowing how to save a life and further that the Petitioners believe that every child across the UK should be taught Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Following this CPR and Public Access Defibrillator (PAD) awareness afternoon’s Westminster Hall debate, during which the at secondary school in order to become part of a Nation Labour Front Bencher committed to the introduction of Lifesavers. of mandatory life-saving skills in schools, but the Minister would not, I am presenting this petition on behalf of The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the residents of Bolton West. It is similar to a British Commons urges the Government to put measures in place Heart Foundation petition signed by 83,500 people. to ensure that every child is taught CPR and Public Access Defibrillator awareness at secondary school. The petition states: And the Petitioners remain, etc.] The Petition of residents of Bolton West, [P001448] Declares that all young people should leave school knowing how to save a life and further that the Petitioners believe that Closure of Dudley Police Station to the public every child across the UK should be taught CPR and Public Access Defibrillator (PAD) awareness at secondary school in 7.5 pm order to become part of a Nation of Lifesavers. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I rise to present a urges the Government to put measures in place to ensure that petition opposing the closure of Dudley police station every child is taught CPR and Public Access Defibrillator awareness to the public. West Midlands police announced last at secondary school. year that Dudley police station is one of 27 across And the Petitioners remain, etc. the region that are set to have their front offices closed to the public to protect police numbers in the face of [P001447] funding cuts. That will leave Dudley as the largest town in the country without a police station that is open to the public. Compulsory CPR and Public Access Defibrillator That is completely unacceptable, which is why I launched education the petition. The fact that 2,200 residents, including our former superintendent, Mr Roger Bagley, signed the 7.4 pm petition shows that local people agree. Our campaign has kept the station open so far, but we are stepping up Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Following on our efforts to ensure that it stays open for good. There is from the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), I huge opposition to the plans in Dudley, which is why rise to present this petition on behalf of my constituents the petitioners and the 83,500 people across the country who want every “request that the House of Commons urges the Government to child to be taught life-saving skills. Our out-of-hospital make resources available to keep Dudley Police Station open to survival rate for cardiac arrest is 10%. In parts of Norway, the public.” it is up to 25%. If we as a country could achieve that by Following is the full text of the petition: having every child learning how to do basic CPR, it [The Petition of residents of the Dudley North constituency, would save 5,000 lives a year. That is something that my party would like to achieve and I hope that it will Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to the proposal become Government policy after the next election. to close Dudley Police Station to the public. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of The petition states: Commons urges the Government to make resources available “The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons to keep Dudley Police Station open to the public. urges the Government to put measures in place to ensure that every child is taught CPR and Public Access Defibrillator awareness And the Petitioners remain, etc.] at secondary school.” [P001449] 269 10 MARCH 2015 Trading Relationships with Europe 270

Trading Relationships with Europe recognise that the opportunity in the renegotiation with Europe is to improve Europe for the whole of Europe, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House not just for Britain, so that this great continent goes (Harriett Baldwin.) do now adjourn.— forward progressively?

7.7 pm Mr Brown: My view is that the hon. Gentleman does Mr Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) not speak for many Conservative Members, some of (Lab): Across each generation during the long march of whom are present, and he should accept that Britain is our country’s history, we the British people have always linked geographically, historically, economically and had to choose how we engage with the world. In particular, culturally, as set out in the Bruges speech, to the rest of we have had to decide, century by century, how and on the continent. We cannot meet and master the challenges what terms we engage with our nearest neighbours in of the future for a country like ours unless we accept Europe. This generation is no exception. that co-operation was always desirable and advisable. Now, in the ever-more interdependent and integrated I acknowledge the current strength of anti-European world we live in, that is even more essential and imperative, sentiment in the country and I believe passionately that not as a surrendering of the British national interest, there is no way forward for Europe other than through but as the best way to realise it in the modern world. reform. I have always insisted on reform of the Commission and its bureaucracy, the Parliament and its accountability, Cross-border trade used to be one fifth of the world’s and the flawed economic model of the euro, which I economic activity and it may soon rise to being one half recommended that we should refuse to join, just as we of it—evidence that we can be an island geographically should refuse to Europeanise everything—we should but we can never again be an island economically or certainly not Europeanise our armed forces, as was geopolitically. Like all Europe, Britain is engaged in the recently suggested by my old friend President Juncker. same fiercely competitive struggle for global markets, not just with America but now with Asia, which will soon I asked for this debate not just because we must never be what Europe once was—half of the global economy. allow sections of our country to indulge in the delusion that we can discount the 3 million jobs, 200,000 British Just as the US, the biggest economy in the world, companies, £200 billion of annual exports and £450 billion needs its economic union, the North American Free of inward investment that are linked to our trade with Trade Agreement, and the rising Asian nations need to the continent, but because we must resist defining every be part of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, part of our relationship with the continent in how much stronger is Britain, which, at her peak, confrontational terms that pit Britain against Europe captured nearly 20% of the world’s economic activity and that wrongly make the issue Britain versus Europe, but now has only 2.5%? How much stronger will we be asking, “Are you for Britain or are you against Britain?”, in future when competing and negotiating with China, as if to be patriotic one must reject Europe in favour of India and the rest of the world to secure the best deals Britain. in trade, address pollution, deliver financial stability and set the rules for tax, patents, action on money laundering Up against the view, which I see is represented by and corruption, and to protect our basic security, most some Conservative Members, that sees Britain as wholly recently against Russian aggression, as part of Europe? separate, defiantly independent of others and standing to gain strength from a European exit, there is another If we look further ahead, how much stronger will we strongly patriotic view, which I believe in passionately, be in exploiting the economic and employment benefits that affirms that Britain is not the Britain we know of modern science, from the human genome to the unless we are outward-looking, unless we are engaged semantic web to space—projects too big for one country with the continent and unless British values—tolerance, alone—if we, the Britain of 60 million people, have liberty, fairness, social responsibility—play a leading alongside and around us the strength of our neighbours, role in shaping Europe and helping Europe to lead in a Europe of 500 million people? If anyone is in any the world. doubt about the wisdom of co-operation with our nearest neighbours, they should think of how young Let me state three maxims that sum up what I believe people today see the world as interconnected and think is the patriotic view of Britain’s future. The first is the nothing of linking up and communicating with friends belief that: across Europe and the world. “Our links to the rest of Europe, the continent of Europe, have been the dominant factor in our history.” Whether it was our indispensible role in the defeat of Napoleon, the containment of Germany, the defeat of The second is a desire that we should fascism, the resolution of the cold war, or more recently “let Europe be the family of nations…doing more together”, the response to the global recession, Britain is not truly a Europe that is more united, with a greater sense of Britain if we are anything other than engaged. Looking purpose. The third is to have at our history, there was never for us, I believe, any long “a Europe which plays its full part in the wider world, which period of splendid isolation, tempting as retreat may looks outward not inward”. sometimes appear. It is never the British way to be anything I know that many Conservative Members may find but in the vanguard in Europe at the continent’s decisive some of those statements challenging or difficult, but moments. In doing so, we help make Europe the biggest they are exactly the statements that Lady Thatcher set instrument for peace that the world has ever seen, as out in her seminal Bruges speech in the late 1980s. vital to ensuring stability now against Russian aggression in the east as it was against Nazism at the heart of Europe. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Does the right There is not one single shred of evidence that our hon. Gentleman agree that many Conservative Members engagement with Europe has made us any less British, could agree with everything he has said so far, and also any less true to ourselves, and any less patriotic. What 271 Trading Relationships with Europe10 MARCH 2015 Trading Relationships with Europe 272 sort of message will the British people send to the world In this culture war, arid statistics on exports and if we, Britain, the most open, outward-looking, seafaring investment from well-meaning, London establishment-led, and trading country the world has ever seen, gives up on corporate-financed campaigns by the great and the good, centuries of ever-growing co-operation with our nearest who will be accused of being elites who do not understand neighbours, casts aside the London-Paris-Berlin axis Britain, will appear to many to be no match for the that we have painstakingly built up over decades, and cultural charge from the right that Britain has ceased to surrenders our rightful influence over future events on be the Britain that they know and love. We cannot win the continent, even though it is directly on our doorstep? in a culture war which asserts that Britain is no longer a What message do we send if, in a betrayal of our history country we recognise just with factsheets about the and of our future, the Britain that did more than any percentage rises and falls in business investment. Technical single nation to spread liberty across Europe and stood arguments are not enough to trump cultural grievances. resolutely for democracy, the Britain that helped take When we are fighting back in a culture war that others on fascism, communism, totalitarianism, anti-Semitism, have started, we must take on one strongly felt set of and is now working with others to defeat extreme Islamic beliefs with another strongly felt set of beliefs. fundamentalism, simply walks away from and abandons If we are to win hearts as well as minds, our core our historic role of standing with Europe against ideologies message must be bigger than the business case and bigger that threaten to deny opportunity and spread prejudice, even than the principled case for engagement in Europe. discrimination and intolerance around the world? We must tell the British people not just about our The real challenge is to convert a far too inward-looking, patriotism and our historic role at the hinges of history self-obsessed Europe not into some federal superstate—all but about how, through putting our enduring progressive the European nations that I have visited are proudly British values to work, we will lead in, and shape the independent, with their own traditions—but into an future of, this continent. The Britain that has consistently outward-looking, globally oriented Europe with a reach championed toleration, liberty and social responsibility and influence spanning every hemisphere. What message before any other country in Europe—and that, as far do we send if, by abandoning not only our history of back as the days of Adam Smith, invented the idea of engagement but our history of being at the forefront of civic society and mutual obligation, influencing Europe Europe, we give up on the opportunities and obligations massively in the process—is ready once again to lead a of a central leadership role in shaping the next stage of progressive movement mobilising Europe towards the our continent’s destiny? greatest challenge we face: to make the global economy This is the fundamental truth about Britain in Europe. and global change work for people by tackling their Given our history, the question for Britain can never injustices, their inequities and their unfairnesses, and by just be whether we are in Europe; it has to be whether giving globalisation what it most needs now—a human we lead in Europe. Our destiny can never be to be some face. kind of bit-part player on someone else’s stage or a Let no one tell us that the Britain that changed the bystander hectoring from the wings. We must at all world in every century in modern times is today some times be setting the agenda, bringing people together powerless, hapless victim unable to wield power in Europe and championing change. Indeed, Britain makes more for good. And let no sceptic tell us that we need to be an sense to the British people, and will enjoy more popular impotent bystander when we are, by our history, our support, if we are more than just part of Europe and we values and our temperament, the country that is best are at its heart, leading from the front and charting the equipped to lead Europe forward. way forward. So let us deal confidently with the argument that the The way to reconcile what has too often seemed European single market somehow hobbles our trade irreconcilable—in Hugo Young’s famous words, the with the rest of the world and undermines London. Let British past we cannot forget and the British future we us show that London’s unique role, essentially one of cannot avoid—is to see our leadership in Europe not as bringing together financial services for the continent, an abandonment of our patriotism but as the truest could not now so easily be performed outside the European modern expression of it. Union. Let us in championing European reform avoid another trap of representing pro-Europeans as the status Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Will the right hon. quo and anti-Europeans as change. Let us be honest with Gentleman give way? the British people that those who say that if we exit we can retain the benefits and ditch the burdens have not Mr Brown: I have given way once, and I have to get thought through the alternatives, including the folly of through this. the Switzerland or Norwegian alternatives to membership— There is no doubt that millions of our fellow citizens even the Norwegians warn against the Norwegian option— now feel more insecure than ever because of the bewildering which leave us subject to European rules but with no pace and destructiveness of what seems to them to be vote in shaping them. To rephrase the aphorism, we an out-of-control and uncontrollable global economy. would be out of Europe but still run by Europe. They are looking for someone or something to shelter, Let me end by saying that positioning ourselves half insulate, protect and cushion them from these bewildering in, half out, as a Britain that is somehow semi-detached and often alien forces that are on occasion taking their and disengaged, the Britain of the empty chair even livelihoods from them. They are looking for someone to when we are in the room, is already making us weaker hold responsible, and they are now being urged to turn than we have been before. We have been irrelevant on what started off as an economic protest, rather than the Greek crisis, a fringe player on climate change and a cultural prejudice, into a culture war whose main weapon mere spectator in the debate that could have shaped a is to blame foreigners, target immigrants and engender European growth policy. We are marginal on Ukraine, a siege mentality against the outsider. with Ministers looking faintly ludicrous as, in one and 273 Trading Relationships with Europe10 MARCH 2015 Trading Relationships with Europe 274

[Mr Gordon Brown] with the status quo. We want the whole of Europe to work better, and we want to resolve once and for all our the same breath, they say, “Russia must be confronted relationship with it. with a more united Europe,” and, “By the way, we are We must see a more dynamic, entrepreneurial and thinking of leaving Europe.” innovative Europe, with more jobs, investment and growth. In a few years’ time, as the German population falls, The right hon. Gentleman made that case and it is Britain can once again become Europe’s biggest and something of an irony that now, towards the end of his most powerful economy. It would be a terrible irony if, long and distinguished time in this House, he makes the just at the moment we are in an even stronger position impassioned plea to stay in Europe when he was first to lead in this more interdependent world, Britain were elected in 1983 on a party platform to leave it. In this to opt out, leaving Europe divided, Russia empowered, age of global competition—what the right hon. Gentleman the United States bypassing us for a French-German coined as the new global economy—we need reform to axis and Scotland threatening to leave a non-European Europe in order to compete with an increasingly open, UK. An England that glories in isolation is not the connected and competitive world. England that I know and love. These past five years have seen Britain transform Instead we must stand up for a Britain leading Europe, from being a country lacking in confidence that suffered not leaving Europe, and for a Britain that has always the greatest banking collapse in history and in which seen the English channel not as a moat but as a highway youth unemployment and our deficit were rising even and the North sea not as a defence against engagement before the great recession. That was the Britain we in the world but as the route to it. In doing so, we have found five years ago and it has been the task of this shaped the destiny of Europe and the world and it is Government to reverse that inheritance with all our energy only those defeatists who claim to be championing a and all our means and with difficult reforms, which we patriotic future but who have, in fact, given up on stuck to even while others told us to turn back. British leadership in Europe who will say that we cannot Now we can see a record number in work—including make leading rather than leaving Europe our mission 6,500 more in work in the right hon. Gentleman’s again. constituency, where unemployment is also down by a I stand for Britain in Europe because just as I came third—as well as 2 million more apprenticeships, 750,000 into this House believing in Britain, I leave it believing more businesses, rising living standards and the fastest in a Britain that can lead in Europe. I will never stop growth in the G7. We on the Government Benches want believing in that vision of Britain’s future. to see the whole of Europe reformed for the better prospects and opportunities of people across that continent. 7.22 pm Richard Graham: My right hon. Friend is making a series of extremely valid points about our role in Europe The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew today. Does he not think it symbolic that, just at the Hancock): It falls to me to respond for the Government moment when this country will have created more jobs on this historic occasion of what might be the last than all the rest of Europe put together, the right hon. speech in the House of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath believes that, and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Before I respond in detail somehow, ours is the party that advocates leaving Europe to his case, it is only right that the House acknowledges and is no longer at the level of competing with Europe? that moment. Since the right hon. Gentleman entered Surely we are in a position to lead it forward into a the House in 1983, he has been a warrior for social much better era of growth. justice, a master at the Dispatch Box, a Chancellor who dominated both the Treasury and this House, and a Matthew Hancock: Our country has been and is Prime Minister who never gave less than his all in the being turned around, but it will prosper whatever the service of his nation. institutional arrangements of our relationship with Europe. The right hon. Gentleman has been a brilliant debater, We are a brilliant country with the most enterprising besting Nigel Lawson in his prime and humbling a long and innovative people in the world, and it ill behoves series of opponents throughout his career. This House anyone, least of all the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy exists to ensure that the great issues of our time are and Cowdenbeath, to compare Britain’s future to a debated; progress is secured and reforms are made brutal dictatorship such as North Korea. For him to through the vigorous exchange of views and a vote to compare Britain to North Korea shows a perverted settle matters. That is why it seems so odd for him to sense of reality. Indeed, he loses heads and hearts when make the case today against vigorous debate, open he makes such a comparison argument and a vote to settle matters. There is nothing God-given about the prosperity of The right hon. Gentleman was a champion of the our nation or our continent, but with the right policies referendum to give Scotland its Parliament, and he there is nothing to stop us becoming the most successful spoke movingly and from the heart during the referendum major nation upon earth. That cannot be done, however, to keep Scotland in the United Kingdom, but he stands without reform. steadfast against giving the people of the United Kingdom Those who argue against a referendum make the a debate and a vote on our membership of the European following case. They speak of the risk to investment, Union. I agree vigorously with him that such votes are which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned. However, won with a fight for hearts and not just heads and bank since my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced accounts, but for his party to deny the British people a our policy of a referendum before the end of 2017, say in a debate of such central importance to this investment to the UK has increased by 14%. We have country is surely to make exactly that mistake. We need attracted the most inward investment since records began that debate and that vote, because no one can be happy in the 1980s and business investment has risen by 6.8%. 275 Trading Relationships with Europe10 MARCH 2015 Trading Relationships with Europe 276

They speak of the dangers of uncertainty, but this Let me be clear about our policy in the next Parliament: referendum does not bring uncertainty. That uncertainty it is not the narrow vision that sees Europe as the centre already exists, because we live in a democracy with an of the universe at a time when we export more to the unhappy relationship between the British people and rest of the world than to the EU for the first time in my the European institutions. Many of us have never even lifetime, but a patriotic, outward-looking vision of reform had the chance to vote on the question. The uncertainty and a referendum. is there because in the past politicians repeatedly signed over yet more powers to the EU and repeatedly refused Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): to ask the British people for their consent. My right hon. Friend will note that this country has Just as we were left in 2010 on the verge of bankruptcy, turned its back on the policies left behind by the right so our credit with the British people on the issue of hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, just as Europe had run out; and just as we on this side of the he has now turned his back on a Minister answering a House are turning around our nation’s economy, so we debate that he himself brought to the House, which is plan by this renegotiation and referendum to restore no way to behave—and it was no way to leave the trust in our relationship with Europe by putting the country when he left office. final decision to the British public, whom we are here to serve. The referendum does not create uncertainty; it Matthew Hancock: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. will resolve it and give the British people the say that It makes clear, does it not, the choice for the British they have been for so long denied. people for the first time in a generation. We on the The right hon. Gentleman speaks of jobs, but there are Government side reject the pessimism that says we can record numbers of jobs and unemployment has been have influence in Europe only by subordinating our coming down at a record pace. He speaks of British goals. Instead, we have influence through the steadfast influence in Europe, but our influence is strengthened, pursuit of our national interest. We must drive those not weakened, by taking a clear-eyed view of the British reforms that are in Britain’s national interest, and in the national interest. I ask this: where was the influence in interests of every member state; a long-term plan for Europe in the past when red lines were printed in such Europe, with free enterprise at its heart, so that the whole faint ink that they were stepped over again and again, continent can rise, compete and thrive in the 21st century. when rebates were surrendered and powers handed over We will stand up for businesses on red tape, for exporters with so little in return? on free trade and for industry on the free movement of Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and capital, and we will restore fairness to the free movement Lesmahagow) (Lab): The Minister speaks of red lines. of people, for work rather than benefits. Before the end Is he in a position to outline tonight the Government’s of 2017 we will put that reformed Europe to the British red lines in the European renegotiation? people in a referendum so that they may decide our future. That is the policy our country needs: reform, Matthew Hancock: I will tell the hon. Gentleman vigorous debate and then a vote to settle the matter, what we do with red lines. Shortly after his election in putting our trust in the decision of the British people. 2010, the current Prime Minister threatened to veto a As the right hon. Gentleman bows out from this proposal that would have damaged Britain, and our House, and with the best wishes of the House to him European partners were so used to those threats being and his family, it is that better future that we must surely made and then abandoned by previous Prime Ministers follow the path to, so that Britain once again can be that they did not believe he was serious. But he was among the most prosperous nations upon earth. serious and he vetoed the proposal. Now when Britain Question put and agreed to. speaks about the need for reform, we are listened to. That is leadership in Europe: no longer on the hook for eurozone bailouts; no longer increasing the regulatory burden but reducing it; and the European budget no 7.33 pm longer rising but being cut. That is our policy. House adjourned.

1WH 10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 2WH

a new camera angle in the Chamber. Although that may Westminster Hall be very exciting for the 650 of us who debate there, and for a few others, it is hardly the revolution that is going Tuesday 10 March 2015 on in the world outside. Mr Speaker set up the commission, bringing together a group of experts from technology, representation and [MR DAI HAVARD in the Chair] the digital world. We heard evidence over that year, our method being very much our message, using online forums as well as traditional in-person evidence sessions. BACKBENCH BUSINESS The commissioners were seeking out those who would not normally get involved. Famously, Helen Milner, the Digital Democracy chief executive of the Tinder Foundation and one of Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting my fellow commissioners, had a meeting above a chip be now adjourned—(Mark Lancaster.) shop. The chip shop owner even paid her staff to turn up, feeling that they would not come unless they were paid. By the end of that session, Helen, in her true 9.30 am missionary fashion, had persuaded a young man that Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Before we begin, I have voting was probably a rather good idea. That goes to a statement to make on behalf of Mr Speaker and the show that, when the Digital Democracy Commission Chairman of Ways and Means. They have agreed, for labelled our report “Open Up”, it was about opening up the purposes of this debate only, that the public will be not only Parliament, but democracy as a participatory allowed to use electronic devices in the Public Gallery, exercise, rather than just using technology to carry on provided that they do so silently and in a way that does doing what we already do. not disrupt proceedings. That means that the same rules In January we published our report—online, of course. apply as apply to Members—so we will have no selfie A few rare hard copies are available—I am sure that sticks, or the rules of the Louvre museum will be they will be collectors’ items in future—but again, applied. However, it is important that we do this properly. our method was our message. We made five headline You are pathfinders this morning. You are trailblazers recommendations. First, by 2020, the House should in this Parliament allowing the public to interrelate in ensure that everyone can understand what it does. Secondly, the way that has been described: discreetly, with electronic by 2020, the House of Commons should be fully interactive devices. and digital. Thirdly, the newly elected House of Commons, I call Meg Hillier on behalf of the Speaker’s Digital after the upcoming general election, should immediately Democracy Commission to open the debate. create a new forum for public participation in the debating function of the House of Commons. Fourthly, in 2020, Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ secure online voting should be an option for all voters. Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Finally, by next year—2016—all published information Mr Havard. I am delighted to have secured this debate and broadcast footage should be freely available in about the future of Parliament, because that is no less formats suitable for reuse, and Hansard should be available than what we were discussing for a year as a commission. as open data by the end of this year. As you have outlined, Mr Havard, this is a first for Those were our headlines, and I shall touch on two Parliament: the public in the Gallery are allowed to briefly before going into some in more detail. We talked bring in mobile devices. We are encouraging them to about online voting, which was the headline that many tweet, text and share today’s proceedings with the wider picked up on, because we were all clear that that was the public. The fact that that is a breakthrough shows how direction of travel. However, we were not set up to far behind Parliament is compared with the world outside. investigate in detail the issues of security and the Thomas Friedman said that in 2004 mechanisms for delivering that, although we hope that “Facebook didn’t exist, Twitter was still a sound, the cloud was the Electoral Commission and others will take that on. still in the sky…LinkedIn was a prison” The hon. Member for Harlow will talk more about that and Skype was a spelling mistake. That does not describe recommendation. the world that we all operate in today. If we look at they We also called for an experiment, post the next general way in which Parliament works, we are some way behind election, for what has been dubbed a “cyber Chamber”: that. The rate of technological change is rapid. We a third chamber in Parliament allowing the public to cannot control that, and when Mr Speaker set up the debate an issue ahead of MPs having that discussion. Digital Democracy Commission, he recognised that we As all MPs will have found at different times, often our need to embrace that. The commission has backed his debates can be best informed by an individual expert in view and agreed that we need to empower those who our constituencies who finds us, approaches us and want to use digital resources to open up our democracy. talks to us about an issue. We hope that the cyber Mr Speaker set up the Digital Democracy Commission Chamber will develop that expert contribution—by in January 2014. Made up of eight commissioners, “expert”, I do not mean experts with letters after their including myself and the hon. Member for Harlow name. Sometimes members of the public can be more (Robert Halfon) as the two Members of Parliament on expert about an issue that they have experienced than the commission, the Speaker was concerned that the Members of Parliament. Again, the hon. Gentleman world outside Parliament was leaving Parliament behind. will speak more about that recommendation. He is absolutely right. Only last week, I was surprised to To turn to the rest of the report, overall, we see this as receive a phone call from Radio 4, who were keen to a road map to improve the way in which MPs engage talk to me about a revolutionary change in Parliament: with the public and to allow the public to better engage 3WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 4WH

[Meg Hillier] digital engagement can create, but the commission felt very strongly about it. In fact, one commissioner proposed with Parliament. Within Parliament, we hope that the that all hon. Members had a digital manifesto. I would new director of the parliamentary digital service, Rob recommend that as an idea, but we did not put it in our Greig, who joined only yesterday, will use the road map recommendations for all 650 MPs. The feeling was that as his job description, as he continues the task of we could not control how that would work. However, it modernising Parliament in a digital way. We also adopted is important that we understand that, although we the declaration on parliamentary openness. I will not would knock on a door and hear people’s points of read that out for the record, but it basically talks about view, that is not the modern method for many young making parliamentary information more transparent people. In fact, smartphone usage among the under-24s and providing easier access to the public, which is the is now more than 80%. It is very important that we very reason why the commission was established. allow similar engagement through a digital method. The resourcing issue is touched on in the report. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): There was a feeling in the commission that this needed My hon. Friend talks about the role of the incoming to be resourced effectively. We were not drawn on head of our parliamentary information services. That figures and numbers, but for MPs to do their job has to be looked at against the background of first, properly and actively listen to people through digital what happened in the past, and secondly, the difficulties means, we need to ensure that we have the resources to relating to this building. Some 20 years ago, when we do that. put the current network into the House, some of us were arguing that blown fibre would have been the Andrew Miller: Some hon. Members complain about answer. Doing the current cabling was a nightmare, the use of electronic media as a modern version of the because of the state of the building, the asbestos and so postcard campaign: people press a button and send a on. If we are to do this seriously, Parliament has to message to their MP without even bothering to read it. resource it, and the public have to understand that it has There is some legitimate criticism there, but does my to be resourced. hon. Friend agree that, handled properly, creating proper digital engagement with our constituents will put some Meg Hillier: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that of those approaches on the back-burner and replace there is a real mission here, but there is a mission and a them with real engagement? will. One of the pleasures of being on the commission was engaging very much with the staff of the House of Commons, who share the desire of Members to modernise Meg Hillier: My hon. Friend seems to be able to read the way in which this place works. There are physical my mind, because that is what we were seeking to get challenges in this building, and we need do no more across as a commission. We had a number of very than look at the images of those challenges in the interesting discussions, in public and, as a commission, Michael Cockerell documentary. That issue was not the privately, about how we encourage real dialogue. One core focus of the commission, but it is fair to say that way to do that—this is an area that I particularly want fellow commissioners who were not used to the workings to cover—is by opening up parliamentary information. of Parliament were surprised at some of the physical Open data are a real resource that could be used to challenges that we face in this building. make Parliament much more accessible, so that people out there can follow their issues and lobby effectively their MPs and, over time, the Government on them. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Let me use the example of something that has over Harlow (Robert Halfon) on representing us all so ably time been an issue in my constituency—dangerous dogs. on the commission. I also congratulate Mr Speaker on That issue has upset and worried a number of my setting up the commission in the first place. It was not constituents, but currently, if a member of the public an easy thing to do. This is not necessarily the most wanted to find out where it was being discussed in radical and reforming place that one will ever come Parliament, what laws had been passed and which Members across, so we are grateful for that. Does my hon. Friend of Parliament were actively interested in the subject, it take great heart from the fact that many things covered would take a lot of digging through clunky information in her report and in the Speaker’s commission mirror to try to find that out. No wonder the lobbying companies the work that we have been doing in the Select Committee become intermediaries between the people and this on Political and Constitutional Reform, particularly on place. That is because it is a full-time job to find out the digital aspects and getting young people, especially, something as simple as what Parliament is doing to to vote online? She is not on her own, and one day, all tackle dangerous dogs. this will come to pass. However, if we had open data, which is what we are seeking—the House of Commons is certainly doing this Meg Hillier: I agree with my hon. Friend that we and we are pretty sure that the Lords will follow swiftly— hope this will all come to pass, and I commend him and that would allow tech experts, such as the many in his Committee for trailblazing on this issue. Other areas Shoreditch in my constituency, to develop, for example, of the House have been looking at the issue. However, it an app that meant that someone could look up a topic is important that we use the launch pad of the new that mattered to them and follow through exactly where Parliament, after the general election, to say that this and when that was being discussed. It would possibly should be business as usual for Parliament. We can no flag things up—this would rely on Government being longer debate whether to do it, but should instead co-operative about publishing an agenda, which was debate how to encourage it. It has been a challenge for beyond our reach—and allow influence at the right some colleagues, who worry about the work load that time. One of the most compelling pieces of evidence 5WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 6WH that we heard was from Clerks of this House, who said website does a good job, but it would acknowledge its that at the point at which legislation is published, it is own imperfections. However, if data are produced in a practically too late to make significant changes. fully open way, in an open format, then algorithms and Government, in our system, determine legislation. We other mechanisms can be put in place so that information know from debates in this Chamber and from the can be collected in a more intelligent and useful way for excellent work of the Backbench Business Committee a member of the public. In effect, the intermediary that debates that happen early on and in which hon. stops being the lobby group and becomes the technology, Members can show an interest from their constituencies but that intermediary between what is going on in this can and do lead to changes in the law over time, but place and what the public want is much faster, sharper very often, members of the public write to us just before and snappier. Equally, it should also work the other a vote and do not get the chance really to influence the way. way we do our business. One challenge that hon. Members raised with me Opening up data is just one example. I am sure that and, no doubt, with the hon. Member for Harlow while we can all think of examples from our own constituencies we were on the commission was this: “Won’t there be of major geopolitical decisions on which we might want too many different platforms for us to use?” We will all to have an influence. I say to hon. Members who are have to address that challenge. I, for example, will be sceptical about digital engagement that we might find crowdsourcing which other social media platform I that we enhance the work that we do by being able to should be using to engage with my constituents. I hope listen to people with strong views, passions, interest and that, through that mechanism, I will gain an idea of expertise in advance of delivering our thoughts on which one is most useful to them, rather than me issues. We would be better informed as Members of alighting on a system, a social media platform, that is Parliament about subjects that matter to our constituents. good for me but is not actually used by many of my However, unless they know what is going on in this constituents. It might make my life easier in some ways place, that will not be possible, and it is opaque. if I did not get interaction, but that is not what I am We wanted to see Hansard, for example, in a here for. I am here to represent my constituents, as we proper open-data format. Staff in my own office use all are. It is important that that technological approach TheyWorkForYou,which I commend as a website because is taken, and certainly the House of Commons is on its algorithms, through its screen scraping—a very old- that track. The new head of digital has just arrived to fashioned approach—give easier access to data about take it forward. That that post has been created is a sign my voting record than I have if I try to look it up in of the vision for where the House of Commons needs Hansard. We wanted to see that change and we are and wants to go. delighted that the House of Commons is already moving As well as the digital side, we touched on the very big along those lines. We set stiff targets for this year and issues around improving public understanding of politics next year to ensure that things happen as quickly as and Parliament. I think I have touched on that in what I possible. have said, but one issue is about reducing jargon and Very shortly, we will be able to embed digital clips of making parliamentary language more accessible. This is what is happening in the House of Commons in tweets, an extraordinary situation. There is a member of staff on our websites and so on. That kind of openness is in this building, working for an hon. Member, who is really important. This is the people’s Parliament. That doing a major piece of research about the availability of is what Mr Speaker firmly believes, and that is why he “Erskine May”. Those of us in this place will know set up the Digital Democracy Commission—to ensure about “Erskine May”, but I would hazard a guess that that Parliament was reaching out to the people and most of us in the Chamber today have not seen or opening up to the people. We as MPs therefore have a touched a physical copy of “Erskine May”. That is duty to ensure that we are listening to the people. because there are very arcane rules about who has access to it and who owns it. There is a real desire— The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Mr Speaker has been leading the charge on this—to get Brake): Perhaps the hon. Lady could expand a little on it made available online, so that anyone out there who what the commission proposed on open data, because I needs to look up any of the terms that we use can do think that a lot of the data that she has referred to are that. That may sound a small step, but it is amazing that available, albeit not very easy to find. Has she identified the rules of this place are held in bound hard copy, how that would work, in terms of a member of the accessible to only a handful of experts. That does not public being able to find out about dangerous dogs, and help to create an open Parliament, which is one of the has she been able to make any assessment of what the reasons why we wanted that to change. cost would be of pulling all that information together in one place for the public to access it easily? We wanted to ensure that we are reaching out to under-represented groups. We touched on how to ensure Meg Hillier: I had the pleasure of attending with the that we do not leave behind those who are digitally hon. Member for Harlow an international conference at excluded, because it is not our intention to do so. Just as which we saw some very technical presentations about with Government services that are going online, we exact formats. I know that the House of Commons is need to be mindful of those who are unable to use that embracing that approach. I am not the best technical process. We see digital as enhancing and improving expert to explain which exact format might be used, but what we do, rather than replacing human interaction. perhaps I should lay out the current approach for the We want to expand that human interaction to digital record. Websites such as TheyWorkForYou will screen methods. scrape. They will collect data almost in a manual way We wanted to look at elections and voting. A key from a website and then collate it, with an algorithm issue internally is how we vote in Parliament. We had picking up things. That will never be perfect. That some interesting discussions about whether Members 7WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 8WH

[Meg Hillier] those who say they will get involved and those who actually do, but even if half of them did so, there would of Parliament should vote remotely online. The two be a massive increase in the number of people getting Members of Parliament on the commission felt strongly involved in what we do. That would ensure that Parliament that there was a big benefit to being in the Lobbies and is the preserve not only of those of us who are elected, being able to tackle Ministers such as the Deputy Leader but of those who want to influence what we do. of the House of Commons directly, face to face. If we As Members of Parliament, we need to be bold and lost that lobbying opportunity, we would feel that we embrace the change. We need to use social media and had lost a large part of what we come to this place to do the opening up of Parliament as an opportunity to on behalf of our constituents. listen better to our constituents, not simply to broadcast The commission concluded that the current voting what we do. If we embrace the Digital Democracy system is slow, clunky and manual. The House of Lords Commission report, proselytise and tell new Members has been experimenting with using iPads to record about it, we will make ourselves more accountable and voting. One of the benefits of recording voting digitally more relevant, and we will improve the work that we do is that the results of a vote can be available immediately in the House of Commons. That work is, ultimately, to the public and the media, whereas currently there is representing the best interests of the public and listening a time lag, because of the paper sheets that we use. I to their views. should explain for the benefit of those who are not Members of the House that as we troop through the Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Before I call Mr Halfon, Lobbies, there are three Clerks sitting in each Lobby I would just like to say that I have a copy of Erskine with large sheets of paper and black marker pens marking May here. I am not sure whether it is meant to be a off our names one by one as we go through. In the weapons system that I can throw at you if you are modern world, it is extraordinary that we still vote in disorderly. It looks as though it has never been opened, such a way. We all have smart parliamentary passes, and although I can see that it has been, because there are it would not be difficult to install technology that markers at the page dealing with the maintenance of allowed us to swipe through. That would enable the order during a debate—I think that that is probably result to be relayed to the public quickly, so we could be what it is intended for—and at a page about disorder held immediately to account for the way in which we and the methods of curtailing debate. Mr Speaker and had voted. I think that that makes great sense and so the Chairman of Ways and Means seem to give me the did the commission, so that is one of our recommendations. novelty or unusual discussions to chair. I want to take We set quite stringent time targets. As the Speaker the opportunity to say that Mr Speaker is in the Gallery, acknowledged, it would be generous to say that the which demonstrates his commitment to pre-legislative House of Commons is living in the early 20th century; scrutiny and to any methodologies that can help with we are way behind in many respects. We wanted to force that process, as well as his commitment to engagement. a drive for change and make Parliament and the House of Commons much more open and accessible. The report provides the foundations, but ultimately the public 9.55 am will make it happen. It requires people to be engaged and interested. When we asked the public which of the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): It is a pleasure to recommendations they wanted to see implemented quickly, serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. I thank the results were fairly evenly spread. Interestingly, online Mr Speaker not only for giving me the opportunity to voting just pipped the others to the post as the favoured speak in the debate, but for having the wisdom to option for slightly more than 20% of those who responded set up the Digital Democracy Commission, which is a to our survey. revolutionary initiative to widen interest in our political democracy. It has been a massive pleasure to serve We need tech developers to take the open data that alongside the other commissioners, particularly my hon. will be available and turn it into something that will Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch enable us to carry out our roles more effectively and (Meg Hillier)—I call her my hon. Friend on purpose—who enable the public to engage with us. When I am knocking has just made an important speech. I am grateful for the on doors in Hackney on a weekend, I can talk to opportunity to serve alongside her. somebody in their kitchen, and I want to have that sort of interaction with everybody. None of us can reach I believe that our democracy will never be complete everyone on the doorstep. unless it makes an effort to reach out to those who do not participate in it, and in considering access to it, we I want those who are passionate about an issue to be cannot overlook the impact of the digital world. The able to engage more effectively. I am a member of the workings of Parliament are analogous to the workings Public Accounts Committee, and we get a lot of letters. of the code cracked by Bletchley Park expert Alan They often arrive very late in the day, just as we are Turing. Parliament is an incredibly well engineered machine, about to start a hearing or sometimes after a hearing. It but it can be deciphered only by a genius who has the is a great sadness to me that we have not got the experience and knowledge required to navigate its many capacity to absorb that information at a more appropriate enigmas. While we are still using the Enigma computer stage. With the right digital support, those who are of Parliament, the public have moved on to getting passionate will be able to get involved more effectively. information via smartphones and open source computers. Many people are keen to get involved. Evidence from Another way of looking at that is to consider Parliament a survey carried out by Cambridge university showed as an old IBM mainframe system in an age where that 46% of people would like to get involved if they system diversity is the rule, not the exception. Parliament could, but less than 10% are currently engaged with is restricting itself, and we need to ensure that it uses all Parliament. Of course, there is a large gap between the available options. 9WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 10WH

The purpose of the report is simple: encourage the therefore outlines a need for an additional structure for public to engage more with Parliament and ensure that Prime Minister’s questions that would directly involve Parliament engages more with the people it represents. I the public. believe that three steps are needed to ensure that that If we are to crowdsource our democracy, we must happens. First, we need to make sure that there is a free make certain that the public feel they have real involvement market of information from Parliament. Not only must in the way Parliament works. The report suggests the that be accessible and understandable, but it must provide creation of a cyber Chamber, or “Open House”, which a forum for exchange and ideas. Therefore, the first step would be must be, as the report stresses, to overcome barriers “regular digital public discussion forums to inform debates held through the simplification and digitisation of parliamentary in Westminster Hall.” data so that they genuinely become open. Secondly, the That is the right direction of travel, but I am a revolutionary creation of a cyber Chamber will enable all to participate in that matter—we need to go further. in the daily life of the Chamber. Finally, online voting would ensure that the most important part of the In the long term, we need a separate Chamber of the interaction between Parliament and citizens was accessible. public where individuals are able to vote on key issues of the day that are being debated, which would give a We do not need to build everything from scratch. The voice to public opinion. Although the House of Commons digital age has seen a lot of companies—Amazon, eBay would always have the ultimate say, each citizen would and many others—developing ways to engage with be given a personal identification number and could customers, and we can use existing expertise to develop vote online on major debates. The result would be an parliamentary engagement. If representation is to mean advisory opinion as to what the public feel about key anything, rather than simply implementing a new, fancy issues as they happen. The third, virtual Chamber would web design, we should ask people what they want and always be advisory, but it would be a great way to directly engage with their opinions. The report has ensure that MPs were made aware of their constituents’ started the crowdsourcing of democracy to make it concerns before we walked into a debate. That would be truly inclusive. In an era that is dominated by the digital a real way to re-engage the public in our democracy. sphere, it seems almost absurd to have such limited means of accessing House of Commons literature in a Mr Allen: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s speech digital format and in language that is accessible to closely, and he knows that he will not find a greater everyone. advocate for the ideas that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) The barrier to people educating themselves about are proposing, but I underline my hon. Friend’s point Parliament and its features is dual: on the one hand, that many people do not have the access that more information is hardly accessible in the format used by educated or wealthier people may have. We have to be the new generations; on the other, the language used in very careful not to skew the political system just so that parliamentary proceedings is so obscure that, just like those who are social media-literate and have access to the Bletchley Park codes, it takes an accustomed genius the various devices that can get them into the House to understand it. That is why, as my hon. Friend stated, of Commons can start to orient policy at the expense of the first step towards democratising access to parliamentary people who are probably more in need of excellent literature must be a simplification of the language to policy from this place. make it more accessible, which means clarifying the jargon, but also developing tools, accessible digitally, to Robert Halfon: The hon. Gentleman makes an important demystify all the processes so that everyone feels they point: roughly a third of people do not have access to can get genuinely involved in the parliamentary system. the internet, but that also means that a huge number of That participation cannot constrain itself to the people do. Many people have no access to Parliament traditional roles allocated to citizens. The policy that I and do not engage with their MP. The proposed system find most important, and which is outlined in our would not be perfect, but, as the internet and social report, is the creation of a cyber Chamber that would media slowly spread, it would allow millions of people allow the general public to weigh in on debates that who otherwise would not engage with Parliament to do concern them. Throughout this debate, we have discussed so. As the years go by, more and more people will have ways to increase participation in parliamentary affairs. access to the internet. We can do that only by allowing those for whom the The third essential part of the triangle is online laws are made to intervene in debates, in an informative voting. When considering the digitalisation of the political style, to ensure that every voice is heard. system, we must always bear in mind the ever-diversifying ways to use the internet. One of those is the ability to Our surveys show that people feel disconnected from accomplish high-security tasks without having to move. political parties, but not from the issues that we discuss. Banks have set up transfer systems that require nothing People are very interested in what goes on in the world but a click, so why would it not be possible for constituents and at home, but not in Westminster politics, which to vote online if they wanted to do so? means that we have to focus our efforts on the substance The voting system is incredibly romantic. We have the of Parliament, the debates and the laws it creates to old-fashioned pencil and the beautiful, black, dented, allow citizens to feel that they are an integral part of old-fashioned ballot box. We mark a cross on a piece of British democracy in action. That should include not paper and stick it in the ballot box, which is anachronistic only the cyber Chamber, but a new way of directly and stuck in the previous century. The public have questioning the Prime Minister and MPs. The focus on moved on from such behaviour, which is why we have direct representation must extend to ways of holding seen such a drop in voter participation and a huge those who lead our country to account, and the report increase in people who want to vote by post. Our 11WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 12WH

[Robert Halfon] 10.10 am Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I surveys show that the majority of people would support did not intend to speak in this debate, but I am particularly an online voting platform, and 15.3% of the electorate interested in the report. Back in 1992, when I was first chose to vote by post at the last general election, in elected to this place, I complained to the powers that be 2010. in the building about the inadequacies of my office. I People want new options, and it is up to us to provide said that I wanted another telephone line, and the them with some. We must not fool ourselves: the decline person I spoke to said, “Youcan’t have another telephone in voter participation is strongly linked to the fact that line; you’re only entitled to two.” I said, “Well, I’m a bit new generations interact in different ways and therefore old-fashioned. I need a third one.” “Why does that require different ways of appealing to them. mean you need a third one?” I said, “I need one for voice, one for my old-fashioned fax machine and one The digital divide is a fading reality, with more and for the computer.” The voice on the other end of the more people being included in the digital age, and we phone said, “Do computers use telephones?” cannot afford to keep Parliament out of it. We have We have come rather a long way since then. That was heard the real concerns linked to such a policy, and the one of the early mistakes of my career, because when I entirely valid fear of security breaches is probably the complained about it to the wonderful Don Dixon, now most important threat to the system we have imagined. in the other place, he said, “Ah, son, you’re exactly the I was amazed, after the first public meeting of the person we want. You’re on the Information Committee.” Digital Democracy Commission, to receive abusive e-mails Never volunteer. from people saying that I was completely ignorant and out of touch with the security of online voting, but that The hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) referred is a farcical argument. to Enigma at the beginning and end of his speech. I had the great pleasure a few weeks ago of sending a message There are a huge number of abuses in the current using an Enigma machine, at an event with 200 or system, but no one says, “Why don’t we look at the 300 young female students. It was an extraordinary flaws in the system?” There are still many small “c” opportunity and incredibly thrilling, and it was made conservative advocates of that system, even though it even more so by the fact that one of the women from has enormous problems. When we go to a polling Bletchley Park participated in the event. Her speech station, we do not even have to show our identification, was far more enjoyable than mine. The hon. Gentleman yet if any suggestion of online voting is made—we have is right to reflect back on that technology, but we must security for online banking and shopping—everyone remember that that was 1935 technology. Here we are in starts worrying about security. 2015, talking about bringing this place into the current century. As highlighted in the report, Estonia shows that online voting does not differ from the security requirements In opening the debate, my hon. Friend the Member of other online proceedings. The system obviously needs for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) discussed to be protected, but we will not be able to proceed with how modern systems can more effectively gather digital democracy if we retain an attitude of stunned information about us and individual subjects and make inaction towards progress. By looking away from online them available in accessible form. That is achievable, voting, Parliament would exclude itself from participative and it is a goal that we ought to set ourselves, but there democracy and let the rest of the world move far ahead are significant obstacles, because we start from an digitally and democratically. We have to engage the environment that is not conducive. By the way, we public in the way that they want to vote, and we have to should not simply digitise everything here. First, we move towards some system of online voting. I hope we need a root-and-branch examination of what needs can have some pilot schemes so that, by the 2020 digitising and how we should do it. election, we may see how online voting can work in To give a current example, just recently the Government certain parts of the country. produced a smart system—to be fair, it could have been done 10 years ago, but this Government drove it through— This year, we celebrate 800 years of Magna Carta, whereby we no longer need a physical tax disc on our which is perhaps one of the most important documents vehicles. They did so by recognising that modern number in modern history—it might be rivalled only by the ten plate recognition can easily tie in with insurance records, commandments. For the first time ever, a major country so that we know that a vehicle is insured. That is a very said that the king was not above the rule of law and did good idea; it was just about digitising the process. not have divine right. It took hundreds of years for the However, the Government have wasted some public system to evolve into what we know as parliamentary money in making that change. Those of us who represent democracy, but in that same way we need to mark this areas with significant rural hinterlands will know that anniversary and to make digital democracy the new there are rather a lot of tractors on the road. For a internet Bill of Rights between the people and Parliament. considerable number of years tractors have been zero-rated The report is a step in that direction. for tax, and now we have a system that still requires Democracy does nothing if it does not evolve with farmers to go through all the bureaucratic nonsense of the times. Freedom survives only when it is a living applying for a non-existent tax disc, wasting a huge organism, not when it is stuck like a pickle in a jar in a amount of time in the digital infrastructure of the laboratory. We must strive to enliven our democracy Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency for absolutely through the digital world. We would do well to remember zero purpose. that the Bletchley Park code breakers who saved our As that example illustrates, we need a root-and-branch country did so thanks to IBM. Democracy is nothing if examination of why we do things in such a way. The it does not recognise others. hon. Member for Harlow referred to the language of 13WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 14WH this place; goodness me, he is absolutely right. It infuriates Finally, I come on to voting systems. I have been me what arcane language we use. “Erskine May” is not looking at them for some time, because there have been exactly a comfortable bedtime read; you are smiling, flaws in the existing system. I have seen with my own Mr Havard, because you have just had a glance at it. It eyes the effects of people manipulating the current is a horrendous document that is impossible to read. We system. Way back in the 1970s, when I lived in Portsmouth, first need a root-and-branch examination of the business I saw mathematical evidence that in a row of houses process so we do not fall into the same trap as the that had all been bought up for compulsory purchase, DVLA and waste resource. every one of the tenants had cast their vote. If the result Secondly, we must examine the rules that govern us, of that election had gone against my political views, I such as those on voting, and the philosophy behind am sure that there would have been an election petition them. My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South about that situation, because we knew that the landlord and Shoreditch referred to that, as did the hon. Member had manipulated that block of votes. So there are for Harlow. It seems to me that philosophically, we fiddles in the existing system that we need to clamp should stick to the physical voting principle that we down on—the hon. Member for Harlow is absolutely must be here in the building. The idea of saying, “Well, right about that. I’m not going to bother coming down from Ellesmere On the other hand, I had a constituent who complained Port this week; I’m going to sit in my garden and vote to me on one occasion, “You know why we vote with digitally on my iPad” is not exactly engaging. The pencil?” I said, “Actually, I don’t know why we vote person must be physically present, but using intelligent with pencil.” He said, “Ah! It’s so they can rub out the systems to swipe through a vote would be a positive results and produce the results they want.” I said, “Well, step. I am thinking of a system akin to the one used in that’s a bit interesting, because they’ve produced a the US Congress. result that led to my being elected. So I am clearly part of the establishment now.” There are people who do not trust the existing system, although those are minority Meg Hillier: My hon. Friend is right; not only the US concerns. Congress but many countries use digital approaches to voting. One of our recommendations, though, involved However, when it comes to electronic systems, the the arcane but useful process of nodding through, by hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The modern security which people who are on the premises but unwell or systems that can be built in will never remove 100% the physically unable through the Lobby for whatever reason possibility of somebody standing over someone else at a to go can be verified and nodded through by a Whip. computer and saying, “I’ll beat you if you don’t give me We recommended that the handful of people so affected your password,” in the same way that they cannot solve at any time might vote remotely online, without having potential abuse in banking systems. Nevertheless, as we to be physically nodded through. have said, there are corrupt practices in the existing manual system, so we must work with security specialists to minimise those risks. In some banking systems, there Andrew Miller: That is a good point, and we need to is such personalised information that only the specified examine in parallel whether we would take the same individual could enter the required data. We all have view if, for example, a Select Committee were away accounts with systems like that. Yes, they can be abused, from the Palace on official business. That needs exploring. but they also help to minimise abuse. I am not drawing any conclusions; I am saying simply that we need to examine those rules and get the principles We are now at a stage where we ought to contemplate right before we embark on phase 2, which will involve a number of possible moves. One is to properly pilot a bringing the technology into the 21st century. modern system, and not the systems that were adopted a few years ago. A number of constituencies could be We should insist, following this debate, that part of chosen as pilot areas to develop such a system, and we the necessary reconstruction of this building involves could examine anomalies in the voting system compared installing the most advanced fibre networks. We need with other constituencies that we benchmark against. the tools to do the job properly. My Select Committee, the Science and Technology Committee, piloted the use Another possible move might simply be to use a of iPads in our work, and I must say that although there model that is used in some countries whereby the voting was a certain amount of resistance from some of my system is not electronic but the counting process is colleagues, it has massively changed for the better how automatic and done instantly. Today, the idea of all we do things. It has improved the efficiency of our those town hall folk sitting around in the early hours of work, and we do not fell a forest by producing ridiculous the morning manually going through our voting papers amounts of paper every time we have a meeting. We is an absurdity in the extreme. There is absolutely no need to drive forward with such technologies, but the reason why most of our counts could not be declared infrastructure of the House must be considered. very shortly after the ballot boxes come in, even within the existing system. I have no idea what the cost of such As my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South an automatic counting system to local authorities would and Shoreditch said, we must also explore the available be, but I would guess that it would have extraordinarily technologies to ensure that we produce data in a form large number of noughts on the end of it. Nevertheless, that is easy for us and members of the public to access. even just taking a gentle step on the way towards Frankly, I see no boundary between our needs and digitising the system could be beneficial. those of members of the public. There is very little currently on the intranet that should not be immediately We ought to welcome the commission’s report and available on the internet; the opening times of the coffee focus on the structure and rule changes that we need to shop might be a different matter, but most of that adopt in this place, so that we do not end up digitising material ought to be instantly available. things just for the sake of it. Digitisation must have 15WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 16WH

[Andrew Miller] and mothers, who will make their contribution towards what a final constitution might look like. Of course, a purpose that focuses on our needs and those of the that will be available to those who wish to set up a general public simultaneously. We ought to explore all constitutional convention. the issues around voting systems. I want to make two points quickly. I am not trying to In what is possibly one of my last speeches in this spoil the party, but we absolutely need to take them into place before I step down as an MP in a few days’ time, I account if this is to be successful. First, there is the wish the commission’s successors in the next Parliament point I have already mentioned to the hon. Member for every success in getting some of these changes driven Harlow about the information haves and the information through, to turn this place into a Parliament that can have-nots. We need a strategy to consider how we can engage more effectively with the people we seek to involve the have-nots. I represent the 10th poorest represent. constituency out of 650; it is rated the 10th poorest by many different measures. It may be that two thirds of 10.25 am my constituents have access to social media and the online world, but I suspect not. I also suspect they are Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): I will not fluent in it. What we need to do is to take these be very brief. I had not intended to make a speech recommendations further to ensure that, as the hon. today, but I was prompted to do so by the hon. Member Gentleman said, everyone has at least the prospect of for Harlow (Robert Halfon), as is often the case, but in being involved, if they are not involved now, so that a very positive way. He talked about the Magna Carta, they can be part of this family. which leads me immediately to mentally flip to a written constitution. Meg Hillier: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. In a sense, we have seen the future and it works—the He makes a valid point. We discussed digital exclusion a remarkable report produced by the Speaker’s commission. great deal in the commission. It brings to mind a I never miss a chance to boast about the Political and constituent of mine who said, “Remember that my Constitutional Reform Committee and I hope that we online access is one hour a day at the library.” He is have shown, in a small way, how this could happen as a online, but does not have a smartphone in his hand and regular practice. has no broadband at home. There are layers of digital I have two examples in mind. We have done a report exclusion, even for those who are able to use the technology. on voter engagement, why people are disengaging and Mr Allen: Indeed. Dare I mention hon. Members what we can do about it. There are lots of reasons for who, like me, do not have the staff available at a that: the media; MPs’ behaviour; registration; and not particular time or who do not have relatives to help being able to vote easily, for example. We were determined them. I have a young daughter to help me through to consult as many people as possible. We thought that difficulties when things seem to go wrong. I think many engagement of voters would be very important. of us are excluded by our own incompetence, more than I think we received what was, at the time, a world anything else. record of responses: we received some 16,000 responses, Technology is often neutral. We need to use technology in one form or another. We used every possible type of to give us a broader-based democracy and to involve social media. Also, and this is an interesting facet of more people. We should never, ever think it is a panacea. what the commission is talking about, we used other The problems with this place are about its relationship organisations. This does not have to be almost nationalised with the Executive and its inability to stand as an by Parliament, as it were. Bite the Ballot, the Hansard independent institution separate from the Executive. Society and the British Youth Council all got involved We must always consider how technology can help us as and did their own online survey of all their members. parliamentarians to build a stronger Parliament. That is The results then came back to us and were fed into our what the Speaker’s commission has done. Once again, I final report. Our report was very influenced by the congratulate my two colleagues on representing all of majorities that stacked up, particularly on online voting. us in the House so effectively. More power to your In addition, we have produced a door-stopper of a elbow. report on a written constitution, which gives all the possible options. We have consulted widely on that. I Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): The two Front Benchers think that there were some 6,000 responses to that. We will speak next. Could I ask you to share the time, have now distilled that into a 10-pager—what one might please, so that Ms Hillier can have couple of minutes at call a “mini-Magna”—a UK written constitution that the end to summarise and talk about what might come tells us what we have now, written down for the first through in future? Thank you. time ever, with some possible options for change on the margins. 10.31 am Individuals can use that resource online. There is now Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): a further consultation, until the end of the year, until we It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, have had an election and until the 800th anniversary of Mr Havard. I congratulate both my hon. Friend the Magna Carta has passed, and in the run-up to what Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) may well be a constitutional convention. We have that and the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), the resource open online, so that people can say what their other members of the Speaker’s commission and view is on the distillation of a written constitution. Mr Speaker himself on an important initiative that I Rather than people saying that traditionally constitutions welcome warmly. I will address some issues raised in the were written by 30 white guys in a hall in Philadelphia, report and will, with your permission, Mr Havard, we would like to have many millions of founding fathers touch briefly on broader issues that are relevant to it. 17WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 18WH

As other hon. Members have said, it is worth reminding with other measures—we have committed to votes ourselves of the political context. When we were in this at 16, for example—we can build much better youth Chamber debating the report on voter engagement engagement in our politics. produced by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham Technology can be used to register more people to North (Mr Allen), we dealt with some of these issues, so vote. Although other hon. Members did not mention I will mention context briefly. that, it is important. This is a big issue that we debated We all know that voter turnout in elections has been recently in an Opposition-day debate in the main Chamber, in decline in recent years and that our political settlement and we have debated it here in Westminster Hall. I is a lot more fragile than it was 30 or 40 years ago. There welcome the Government’s initiative allowing online have always been turnout gaps in elections, including a registration. An extraordinary number of people have social class and an age gap, and those gaps have widened registered to vote online. I met the electoral registration significantly in recent years. Of course, we know that officer in Liverpool recently, who told me that now trust in politics and politicians, and in the traditional more than 80% of people registering to vote there are political parties, is at a very low ebb. doing so online. That is exciting, but we need to consider The hon. Member for Harlow made an important other ways that we can use technology to allow people point: there is a disconnect with the political parties, but to register to vote, using Facebook, as the Government not a disconnect with the political issues. The report have, local authority websites and other local authority seeks to address some ways in which we can harness services, and looking at other options as well. that interest in the issues, to make more of a connection We can learn some interesting lessons from the Scottish with Parliament and how we do business in this place. referendum, where 97% of eligible voters were registered Of course, as other hon. Members have said, over the and turnout was well over 80%. That shows what can be last 40 years the way that people interact with politics achieved, but we must not forget the scale of the challenge and current affairs has changed dramatically, with the that we face. The Electoral Commission estimates that rise of social media, a more diverse and mobile country 7.5 million eligible voters are missing from the register. and massive technological advancements. The success Some interesting recommendations were made relating of online platforms, which hon. Members have mentioned, to open data and to a cyber Chamber. My hon. Friend such as 38 Degrees and Change.org, has fundamentally the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), the shadow Leader altered the way that people raise issues with their Members of the House, announced recently a proposal to launch of Parliament and, therefore, the nature of political a new online democracy portal, which would seek to debate and discourse. However, my hon. Friend the draw together all the things that people need to know Member for Nottingham North is right to remind us of before voting, including basic information about an a continued digital divide. That is why I think—all hon. MP, such as how they vote, and who the political parties Members have said much the same thing during the are and what they stand for. That links well to the debate—that the measures proposed in the report are proposal for open data in this excellent report. necessary, but are not sufficient to address the challenge that we face in terms of political disengagement. I will The commission’s first recommendation is that, return to that in a moment. “By 2020, the House of Commons should ensure that everyone can understand what it does.” The hon. Member for Harlow spoke about the important issue of online voting. When people can shop, watch That sounds basic, but it is important. It took my mind television, communicate, bank and organise other aspects back to 1997, when we set up the Select Committee on of their lives online, it is only right that we explore fully the Modernisation of the House of Commons and the extent to which democracy itself can be undertaken undertook some basic reforms. In particular, it reminded differently using online methods. Of course, as all hon. me of when I did the job that the Minister now does, as Members said, we need to ensure that there is adequate deputy to Robin Cook, Leader of the House of Commons security, so the security of our democracy is not after the 2001 general election. Robin was determined compromised, and that any initiative is cost-effective. to drag this place into the 21st century—and certainly, at that time, to drag into the latter part of the 20th century, However, as the hon. Member for Harlow and as my even though it was already 2001. hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) both said, in any method of voting All the time we need to look at what measures we can there is a risk of abuse and fraud and there is always a undertake to better engage the public. My hon. Friend debate about how we strike the balance between ease of the shadow Leader of the House has talked about access to voting and protecting the voting system from engaging people more as legislation is going through fraud and abuse. We debated that matter in respect of Parliament. She proposed a new public evidence stage postal votes and traditional voting—turning up at the for Bills, where citizens, as well as experts in the field, polling station—and, of course, we should have that can submit their views on proposed new laws, freeing up debate in respect of online voting. However, such a more time in the Chamber for a whole-House scrutiny debate should not be a veto to its consideration. I agree stage, so that Back-Bench Members have more of an that we need pilot schemes to look at online voting and opportunity to question Ministers about proposed those need to be undertaken soon. Labour will commit legislation. to that. If we demonstrate that concerns about security The Leader of the Opposition has committed to the and cost can be met, we will be in a position to consider introduction of a public question time, where citizens wider implementation at an early stage. will be able to question the Prime Minister once a week These issues are not just about young people. Digital or once a fortnight. That will allow the public unprecedented engagement crosses age divides. I have mentioned the opportunity to scrutinise the Prime Minister and hold big age gap now in terms of turnout in elections and the Government to account. I have been taking forward wider public engagement. Addressing these issues, along that proposal and looking at different ways in which it 19WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 20WH

[Stephen Twigg] Committee. I reassure the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) that he never misses an opportunity could be implemented. The idea of a cyber Chamber, to boast about the success of his Committee. which the hon. Member for Harlow talked about, gives an interesting dimension to that, and we will certainly Robert Halfon: It is well deserved. consider it as we put more meat on the bones of the proposal. Tom Brake: Indeed. A long-time passion of mine is citizenship education The report contains 34 specific recommendations. I in our schools and communities. I praise the brilliant do not have time to comment on all of them individually, work of the education service in Parliament. It has so I will highlight key areas, particularly those in which moved on massively in recent years. Whenever I have the Government have a lead responsibility. I will also school parties down from my constituency in Liverpool, try to address the points that Members have made on I am always very impressed by its work, but we need to which the Government have a view. do far more to ensure that young people and children The Speaker’s commission makes some useful are being equipped with the knowledge and skills they recommendations about engaging the public, some of need to be active citizens in their childhood, their youth which are aimed at improving understanding of Parliament and when they grow up. and the work of MPs. One example is simplifying The Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform language, which is something I think we would all Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham support. I was interested in the idea that by 2020, North, spoke about his recent report on voter engagement. Parliament should be understood by everybody. As an He mentioned the constitutional convention, which has interim milestone, perhaps by 2015 Parliament could be increasing cross-party support and support in civil society. understood by all Members of Parliament, and then we It is an opportunity for us to engage with the public on could progress to public understanding by 2020. Some some of these fundamental questions on the nature of clarity on precisely what “Parliament should be understood democracy and to do so in ways that reach those by the public by 2020” means would be helpful, because members of the public who are traditionally not engaged it could mean an awful lot of things to different people. in these sorts of discussions. If we can make that work, Other recommendations include clarifying online I do not see why we cannot explore the idea that the publications and improving the website, including for hon. Member for Harlow talked about, of having citizens those with disabilities or sensory impairments. Much panels that can meet regularly, not just on issues of has been achieved in those areas already, but I am sure political and constitutional reform, but on health, education, there is further to go. Making it easier for people to the economy and jobs of the future. Why can we not track specific areas of interest is one example of how we engage with citizens in a much more structured way and could improve our interaction with those who want to ensure that their voices are heard? engage. The hon. Member for Hackney South and There is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham Shoreditch set out how technology could be used to pull North said, no single or simple panacea for these together the issues that people are interested in so that fundamental and political challenges. They are not new, they could see in one place the range of contributions but they have grown in recent years. They are not being made by different Members in both Houses, by exclusive to this country, but are shared by many other Select Committees and so on. Through that, they could advanced democracies. The proposals in the report are get a real feel for what is happening. necessary and welcome, but they are not sufficient if we I am glad that the commission looked specifically at are to address the massive democratic divide in our engaging the young. If we are to engage better with the country. I finish where I started by praising my hon. public and in particular with young people, it is vital Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, that we exploit the full range of communications channels. the hon. Member for Harlow and the other members of Although the web and social media are key mechanisms the Digital Democracy Commission for an important for reaching young people—I welcome the approach piece of work. Whatever the outcome of the general taken during Parliament week to focus on engaging the election, I hope that the House will take forward the young in innovative and dynamic ways—there is clear report’s excellent proposals. evidence that taking the opportunity to visit Parliament can have a powerful impact on perceptions of our work 10.42 am and role. The shadow Minister outlined that when he The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom talked about the visits enjoyed by schools from Liverpool. Brake): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, A visit can bring a reality to the theory that students Mr Havard. I thank the hon. Member for Hackney learn. South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) and my hon. Friend More than 45,000 seven to 18-year-olds from across the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) for kicking off the UK visit Parliament each year via our education the debate. I also thank Mr Speaker for establishing the programmes, but such visits are heavily over-subscribed. Speaker’s Digital Democracy Commission. The majority I therefore welcome the decision by the House of Commons of its report’s recommendations are for Members of the Commission to press forward with the creation of a House to consider and respond to, but everyone has a dedicated education centre. That will increase capacity, shared interest in many of the aims and objectives. giving more than 100,000 young people a year the Increasing public participation and public awareness of opportunity to visit Parliament and learn about their the role of Parliament and of MPs is a worthy aim. Of democracy. Members will, I am sure, be aware that course, we are not starting at point zero. Much has been construction at the north end of Victoria Tower gardens achieved in recent years as a result of the efforts of commenced in September 2014. We expect to welcome many, including the Political and Constitutional Reform the first groups to the centre in summer 2015. Votes at 21WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 22WH

16 can also help engage young people at an earlier stage to be engaged. The Government have also provided in the political process and hopefully engage them more time to allow proper scrutiny in Public Bill Committees thereafter when they become adults. That has been and, where necessary, provided additional days on Report. Liberal Democrat policy for many years, albeit that it is There are several recommendations in the report on clearly not Government policy. ideas to change the legislative process further, which The hon. Member for Nottingham North referred to will clearly be of interest to Members. digital exclusion, which is a significant point. I spoke at On electronic voting, the Speaker’s commission the Wallington Evening Townswomen’s Guild, and I recommended that secure online voting should be an asked its members, “How many of you would welcome option for all voters by 2020. Making online voting the idea of a cyber-forum where you could all go online available for UK elections could be attractive in the and express your views about what the Government are light of current advances in IT, but there remain concerns doing or intend to do, or put forward your own views?” that e-voting is not sufficiently transparent or secure. Of the 50 or so people present, one hand went up. That My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow said that woman is involved in a forum that is interested in banking can nowadays be done by a simple click; the greyhounds. While we can talk about the importance of security measures that are in place are significantly online democracy and online engagement, there is still a more complex than that. There would need to be elaborate digital divide. I agree that the divide will probably protection and security around online voting. shrink as people become more used to technology, but I I conducted my own non-scientific online poll about still think there might be a drop-off in the number of online voting. Admittedly, it did not have a sample size people involved. Those of us who started off being comparable to those mentioned by the hon. Member familiar with technology—some of us might have grown for Nottingham North, but, interestingly, of the 11 people up more recently, with Facebook and Twitter—will find who responded out of the 232 people reached by the that our children are using other things that we are not Facebook post—this was an online survey—seven, or so familiar with. Even people who grew up in a technological 64%, said that they favoured online voting, and four world may reach a point where the most modern devices, said that they did not. Given that that was a sample of apps and software exclude them. people who were online, and thereby excluded everyone We take digital exclusion seriously. The Department who was not online, we must take on board the fact that for Culture, Media and Sport is leading on the provision a significant minority did not favour online voting. One of superfast broadband to at least 95% of UK premises person said, by 2017, and on providing universal access to standard “not in a million years, anything digital and online can be easily broadband, through Broadband Delivery UK. The manipulated by cheats. Trust is the issue”. Government Digital Service in the Cabinet Office is Another asked: conducting research to provide a better understanding of the support requirements of the digitally excluded “How will you make it secure, given the well documented and assisted digital users. As part of the commitment to issues that prevent that?” reducing the number of people and organisations offline, Of course, there were people on the other side who were the GDS undertakes ongoing user research to understand very much in favour. Some did not trust postal votes as what prevents people from going online. It has brought an alternative, and Andy was together 40 organisations from the public, private and “inclined to trust the security of asymmetric cryptographic protocols”. voluntary sectors to sign up to a UK digital inclusion I trust Andy implicitly, so if he trusts them, I am sure charter. Work is therefore going on. that I should also trust them to provide the security On the report’s recommendations regarding the legislative needed for online voting. Clearly, we must address the process, the Government are committed to ensuring issue of trust in the security of online voting. Public that the legislation they put before Parliament is of a support for such measures is still far from universal, high standard, and to ensuring that Parliament has the and traditional means of voting, such as polling stations necessary means by which to perform its scrutiny function. and postal voting, remain popular with the electorate. In April 2013, the Government launched the good law Online voting would have to be an extra voting channel. initiative, which was designed to promote law that is Speaking as a Liberal Democrat rather than as a effective, clear and accessible. One of the best examples Minister, I would be very happy for trials to take place of that that I have seen, which I would encourage to in future, now that we have individual electoral registration happen more often, is the idea of a Keeling schedule, in place. That was one of the building blocks that which takes a series of interlinked Acts and creates a needed to be in place to enable trials to go ahead. I hope document with all the relevant excerpts from the predecessor that that will be considered in future. Acts in one place. That way, rather than trying to read across a number of different Acts, everything can be The debate has been interesting. All Members will read in one document. I would like to see that idea used have their own opinions on which ideas merit further more effectively, because it provides clear and accessible effort to bring them into being. The report from the law. Speaker’s commission is a useful contribution to the During this Parliament, various initiatives have been ongoing debate. I have highlighted many of the successes introduced that are designed to improve the legislative of recent years, but I am sure that many Members will process, including the use of explanatory statements on be keen to continue the pace of reform, particularly in amendments, improved explanatory notes and the piloting taking the maximum advantage of the opportunities of public reading stages for Bills. The issue of public offered by advances in technology. consultation during the Committee stage of a Bill was The Chamber is becoming more relevant to the lives raised in the debate. That was used for the Health and of our constituents, whether through topical questions Social Care Bill in 2011, so there are precedents for the or Back-Bench debates on issues such as Hillsborough Government providing such opportunities for the public or contaminated blood, or through Mr Speaker’s greater 23WH Digital Democracy10 MARCH 2015 Digital Democracy 24WH

[Tom Brake] mentioned in this Chamber about a week ago. The House of Lords concluded that broadband should be use of urgent questions. It is important that our constituents seen as an essential utility. If we are really to tackle the see the relevance of what we debate to their everyday digital divide, that must be a mission for whoever is in lives, and, importantly, that they feel able to engage in government after the election. I hope that we have the political process. Technology is one way in which we cross-party engagement on that. can enable better participation in the parliamentary The Deputy Leader of the House also spoke about process and in politics more generally. engagement, and rightly highlighted some of the progress New technology has provided the means to move that has been made, such as opportunities for the public from our existing representative democracy to a to influence the early discussions on Bills, open evidence participatory democracy, which could represent a sessions and so on. The commission was really clear fundamental constitutional change, affecting the role of about one important reason why open data is so important: MPs and their constituents, as well as the processes by unless someone knows that such opportunities exist, which we govern. That bring its own challenges—for they cannot get engaged. There is a danger that, because example, being clear about what is on offer, being of how the House works, we tend to go to the same few genuinely open to ideas, and considering suitable lobby groups and people who have an expressed interest accountability for participative mechanisms of engagement. in a subject. We all know that there are silent, quiet It is in that context that we need to consider further the experts in our constituencies who, given the opportunity, purpose and parameters of the reforms we have discussed could really contribute to the work of this place. I today. I look forward to the debate being resumed in the cannot do my job without those people, and I am sure next Parliament. that the same can be said for other Members, so it is important that we give them the chance to get involved 10.55 am at the right moment. That is where open data can make Meg Hillier: I thank all Members who have contributed a difference. to the debate, as well as others who were unable to It would be fair to say that we are on the cusp of a attend but are nevertheless very interested in the work revolution. The report discusses digital engagement, of the Speaker’s Digital Democracy Commission. I also but we know that it is not a panacea. Nevertheless, it is a thank many others who contributed to the commission’s tool for better accountability for this place and for us deliberations. I thank the commissioners, who gave up individually. We must not let this opportunity pass. their time freely to make the report what it is, and, of Mr Speaker had the vision, and the commission has course, Mr Speaker, who had the initial vision and done its work. We have agreed to meet formally in a chose a mechanism that was not over-bureaucratic to year’s time to see how we are doing, and the House of ensure that we could start this century, rather than wait Commons staff are doing their bit, with the new digital for another 20 years. Thanks to him, we have made leader, who started work only this week, leading the more progress over the past year than we would have way. Members and the people of this country must now done had we waited for Members to come round to the embrace and deliver digital democracy. The report will idea of discussing digital democracy. only live if the public engage. We must say to them, “We I want to pick up on a couple of points that were open up this place and its proceedings to you. Please made by both Front Benchers. The first was about contribute. Take on our recommendations and make citizenship education, which put me in mind of a visit I them live.” made on behalf of the commission to an international event in Montenegro to look at issues of digital engagement. Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Thank you very much. Montenegro is a very small country that was part of the Thank you also to those in the Public Gallery. This is former Yugoslavia. Because most of the adults there the last time that I will chair Westminster Hall, so it grew up under communism, they were keen to teach is appropriate that we have discussed the future. The their children about democracy. In very good English Panel of Chairs has been helping with related matters, that in many ways put us to shame, the children explained so I thank those present for helping us to establish a to the delegates a workshop that they underwent to netiquette—I think that is the word—for the future, in explain democracy to them and help them to understand which the public can be involved. it. That underlines the fact that although the commission The next scheduled debate will not take place, because looked at digital, we were really focused on how to use it the hon. Member who secured it is unwell. We wish him to make engagement better. Digital alone is not going well in his recovery. to solve the problem, as many have said. The Deputy Leader of the House spoke about broadband. It is worth drawing the House’s attention to 11 am the House of Lords report that was most recently Sitting suspended. 25WH 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 26WH Curriculum First Aid Techniques: National Curriculum Malcolm was also lucky because a defibrillator was available, and he was rushed to a specialist hospital. Three days later he left hospital with very sore ribs, but [SIR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] alive and with his brain intact. Four months later, he was a Games maker at the Paralympics. 2.30 pm Sir David Amess (in the Chair): There is wide interest Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): A in the debate. From the Chair’s point of view, it would mother and daughter were at the launch of the campaign be helpful if colleagues quietly let the Clerk know who in Parliament square. The daughter had saved her mother’s wishes to make a speech and who intends merely to life by recognising that she was not breathing, and she intervene. Aside from the main speakers, it looks as was able to do CPR until the ambulance came. Seeing though there will be about five minutes each for the rest. mother at the launch, chirpy and with it, was a heart- warming thing. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I am Julie Hilling: The hon. and learned Gentleman clearly grateful for the opportunity to have one last go in this caught sight of my speech before he raised his point. I Parliament to persuade the Government and my Front was about to go on to say that Mandy Hobbs was really Benchers that there is a chance simply, easily, cheaply lucky, too. Her 14-year-old daughter, Samantha, woke and immediately to save lives and to transform society. up to hear her father on the phone saying that he Teaching emergency life support skills in schools and thought her mum was dead. Samantha had learnt CPR the community is at her swimming life-saving club, and she says that she “a no brainer, it’s just common sense”. went on to autopilot and started chest compressions. Those words are not mine, but those of Dr Andy Lockey When she got too tired to carry on, she taught her at the Resuscitation Council. There are 150,000 people father what to do. Mandy survived and now Samantha a year who die in situations in which, if only someone has become the pin-up girl of the British Heart Foundation. had known what to do, their lives might have been Mandy, dad Nick and Samantha are regular visitors to saved. There are 30,000 people who have out-of-hospital Parliament, trying to persuade the Government to make cardiac arrests, but fewer than one in 10 survives. If first aid compulsory in schools. only someone knew how to do cardiopulmonary resuscitation, or CPR, and if a defibrillator was available, Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate the survival rates could increase to 50%. hon. Lady on securing this important debate and I take Emergency life support skills are a set of actions the point that she is making as a fundamental premise, needed to keep somebody alive until professional help but does she agree that there is a role for local community arrives. They include performing CPR, putting an campaigns, such as Heart of Gold and the Stephen unconscious person into the recovery position, dealing Carey fund in Northumberland, which are trying to with choking and serious bleeding, and helping someone institute and organise more public access defibrillators who might be having a heart attack. Such skills are around the county of Northumberland so that rural particularly crucial at the time of a cardiac arrest, when dwellers have that access, which saves lives? every second counts. For every minute that passes in cardiac arrest, the chance of survival falls by 10%. If Julie Hilling: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. CPR is started immediately, the time that the person For me, it starts in schools. If only we could have—I will remains in a shockable, and hence reversible, condition go on to talk about this more—a generation of life will be prolonged. It also means that there will be more savers coming out of school. We have millions of people of the person’s brain function left—more of them left—if in the community who will not have had the benefit of they are resuscitated. At the moment, it is down to luck. being trained in schools. I applaud his organisations Three years ago, Fabrice Muamba had a cardiac and the organisations in my constituency and across the arrest when he was playing for Bolton Wanderers against country that do amazing work to raise money for Tottenham. Fabrice was lucky because he had his cardiac defibrillators and for training individuals in how to do arrest where there were people who were trained in what CPR. to do. He was lucky because the club medics and the paramedics gave him immediate CPR on the pitch, so Survival should not be down to luck. There are far his brain was saved. He was lucky because medics did too many other examples of people who suffer cardiac not give up on him and worked on him for 78 minutes arrest and are not saved because the people around until his heart restarted. Because he was with people them do not know what to do: children such as Ciaran who knew what to do, we still have the charming, Geddes, who died aged 7; 12-year-old Oliver King; intelligent Fabrice in this world with us. 16-year-old Daniel Young; or 17-year-old Guy Evans. My sister’s friend, Malcolm McCormick, was also Their mums are campaigning for defibrillators and lucky. Just a month after Fabrice’s cardiac arrest, Malcolm emergency life-saving skills to be taught in schools. went to school to pick up his grandchildren and he keeled over, effectively dead, not breathing, heart not Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Before I became an MP beating. Malcolm was lucky because one of the people in 2005, I taught in a school where every single pupil in waiting to collect children was a retained firefighter year 8 did a 12-week first aid course as part of their who started to give CPR. He was very lucky because personal and social education. Does my hon. Friend once a month another firefighter volunteers in the agree that that is the type of programme that should be school tuck shop, and it was his Friday to be working, implemented so that every single child coming out of so he came and took control of the situation. school would have those skills? 27WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 28WH Curriculum Curriculum Julie Hilling: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The British Heart Foundation is giving Resusci Annies— Absolutely, every school leaver a life saver is what we the resuscitation dolls—to high schools and has produced should be aiming for. a CD that teaches those skills in just half an hour, but This Government—it may be my Government in two we should be more ambitious. It is essential that we also months’ time—have a chance to make a real difference. teach children to deal with choking and bleeding and to We want the national curriculum to reflect the essential put somebody in the recovery position. Nine out of ten knowledge and understanding that pupils should be 11 to 16-year-olds have been confronted with a medical expected to have to enable them to take their place as an emergency, often when no adults are around. Even educated member of society. Knowing how to save a life when there are adults, it is often the child or young would be absolutely in keeping with that aspiration. person who takes control and, for instance, delivers Knowing how to save the life of a family member or a back blows to stop someone choking or deals with a member of the public would enable children to have an serious bleed. impact on the health of society. Ensuring that life-saving According to research by St John Ambulance and the skills were taught in schools would provide the chance British Red Cross, only 7% of the UK population have to instil in all children how valuable life is and how the skills and the confidence to carry out basic first aid important it is to be a good citizen. in an emergency, but 91% of pupils want to learn first aid at school; 98% of parents want first aid on the curriculum; and 96% of teachers think it is important Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): I congratulate the hon. for students to learn first aid. Ninety-five per cent of Lady on securing the debate. She is making a passionate teachers agree that first aid teaching develops the general case for something she clearly believes in deeply. Does confidence and optimism of young people, yet only she accept that this is part of a wider awareness that is 21% of our schools equip young people with first aid needed among the community at large to raise the skills. profile of first aid issues, not only in schools and in the workplace, but across the spectrum, because there are still not enough people who know what to do in an Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I am enjoying emergency of the kind that she has talked about? If I the hon. Lady’s speech immensely; she is making a very may, I will acknowledge the support she gave to my powerful case. An argument against having CPR training campaign for Millie’s Trust, which wants trained paediatric in schools is that it would take up too much time, but first aid nurses in nursery schools to be a statutory surely what she is saying is that it would not require that requirement. much teaching time to get across to young people the skills that they need.

Julie Hilling: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right Julie Hilling: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. and I congratulate him on Millie’s campaign, because it I will go on to say more about that in a moment, but let is absolutely crucial that people do not die when they me reiterate the point now: if someone goes for half an could be saved. Currently, 7% of the population know hour’s training a year over their time in secondary how to save a life. Surely we could do much better. school, we are talking about two and half hours. If they We could join other countries such as France, Denmark stay on, it is three and a half hours. If they go for an and Norway, where emergency life support skills are hour’s training, we are talking about five, six or seven already part of the curriculum, as they are in various hours. In terms of a school day, it is quicker than going states in Australia and in 36 states in America. In on a cross-country run. We are talking about schools Seattle, children have to learn first aid skills before they being able to take this skill into the national curriculum can graduate from school, and it is also part of the and to train people in it. driving licence requirement. More than half of the St John Ambulance and the British Red Cross believe population in Seattle is now trained in emergency life that CPR and public access defibrillator training are support, so people are rarely more than 12 feet away important, but that other skills, such as the ability to from somebody who could save their life. deal with choking, bleeding and burns, and the ability However, it is not enough to learn CPR. Michelle, a to place somebody in the recovery position, must also staff member at Rivington and Blackrod high school in be taught in schools. They believe that that could be my constituency, knew what to do when her dad had a done for just one hour a year, some of which could be cardiac arrest. She and others did CPR for a long time delivered during an assembly. They, too, have provided before the ambulance arrived far too late to make any free resources online for schools to use. difference. Had there been an automatic external We still have Heartstart schools, where that range of defibrillator, they might have been able to shock his skills is taught for two hours a year. It would take a tiny heart back into rhythm, but there was not. That is why I amount of the time that children are in school utterly to applaud the work of the Bolton implantable cardiac transform our society and have a nation of life savers. defibrillator support group, who work so hard to raise First aid provision also helps to meet Ofsted’s requirement funds and have just donated their 67th defibrillator. on school safety and on the promotion of pupils’ spiritual, The chain of survival is just that—a chain of action moral, social and cultural development. that needs to be undertaken for a person to survive a We need to end the scenario in which, when somebody cardiac arrest. It needs someone to call for help, collapses or has a road traffic accident, we all stand someone to do CPR, a defibrillator and someone around in a circle waiting for someone to act because confident enough to use it, and an ambulance to take we are too frightened to intervene. We need to end the the person to hospital for treatment. That is why fear of companies and organisations that are worried children need to learn how to do CPR and how to use a about the consequences of having a defibrillator. No defibrillator. one has ever been successfully sued for attempting to 29WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 30WH Curriculum Curriculum save someone’s life, and as one of my local firefighters As the hon. Lady said in her excellent speech, said, “If someone’s heart has stopped, they are dead. 30,000 people a year will have a serious cardiac arrest You cannot make them any deader.” outside hospital, and disgracefully, only one in 12 can Schools, companies, businesses and community groups expect to survive. Ambulances take six to 12 minutes to should be far more worried about how they would feel if arrive, and for every minute that passes in which immediate someone died when, if only they had invested in an CPR is not given, the survival chance falls by 10%. If AED and someone had known what to do, they could immediate CPR action is taken, the survival chance have saved them. Indeed, I believe that we should make rises threefold. It is a great, crying shame that most AEDs compulsory, like fire extinguishers. people are simply not able to help or will walk by, not having the confidence to step in. In previous debates, we I cannot imagine anything worse than watching a have heard horror stories of groups of people standing loved one die and finding out that if only I had known around and taking photographs, with nobody being what to do, they could have survived, so I have put my willing to step forward. Therefore, it is perhaps no money where my mouth is. I have trained as a Heartstart surprise that we have such a disgraceful survival rate of tutor, so that I can teach people to do CPR and deal just one in 12. with choking and bleeding. My staff are Heartstart-trained and all the secondary schools in Bolton West have We are all committed to trying to empower people committed to or have become Heartstart schools. with the skills and confidence to step in. As the hon. Lady so eloquently put it, frankly, anything is better I have worked closely with Sara Harris and the North than doing nothing. Someone cannot be deader than West ambulance service to encourage the teaching of dead. emergency life support skills and the roll-out of defibrillators. Sara works closely with the British Heart David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I congratulate the Foundation on its programmes. I have worked with hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) on securing Greater Manchester fire and rescue service, many of the debate and on her stirring words, and I also congratulate whose firefighters go into schools to teach life-saving my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin skills. I have worked with Bolton Wanderers community Tomlinson) on the speech that he is making. I have trust, which is doing a great job in teaching life support learned a lot not only from this debate and the campaigns skills and promoting defibrillators. I am working with that they have put forward, but from St John Ambulance Bolton implantable cardiac defibrillator support group, and British Red Cross locally. They have taught me who are doing such an amazing job in raising money for what more I need to do. Will he join me in congratulating defibrillators. them on their work across countless constituencies? Is Recently, I have started to work with Lagan’s Foundation, there more that we can do to support their efforts in which is a foundation that supports parents of children helping this important campaign? with heart disease and is also doing CPR training. I have campaigned with The Bolton News for every school Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for his leaver to be a life saver, and I have met with Ministers excellent intervention. I think we would all join together and shadow Ministers, and spoken on the subject many in congratulating St John Ambulance on their brilliant times in this place, including introducing a ten-minute work, not just in his constituency, but right across the rule Bill. country, and a number of organisations are desperate However, that is not enough, because every time there to step in and support the activities that we are pushing is a change of head teacher or the staff member responsible for in schools. This is a win-win for so many different for emergency life support skills leaves, we have to start people. again. The only way to ensure that all children learn One reason why I am so passionate about this issue how to save a life is to put life-saving skills into the and have worked so closely with the hon. Member for national curriculum. The only way to ensure that a Bolton West, a number of other MPs, and particularly, defibrillator is available in our schools and other public the British Heart Foundation—it has been fantastic in buildings is to legislate for them to be a requirement. providing statistics and doing work that I will come Since I started campaigning for that four years ago, I back to—is that I found my father after a critical have heard some tragic and inspirational stories. I appeal cardiac arrest. I was aged 12. I came into the shop to the Minister and to the shadow Minister to commit where he had been collecting the money, and I kicked to introducing emergency life-saving skills to the national into autopilot. I probably was not particularly good, curriculum and, as a bare minimum, to ensuring that but it was better than nothing until passers-by came by. pupils know how to do CPR and how to use a defibrillator. When we see the statistics, we are often blinded by the numbers, but I can personally vouch for just what happens when someone is in that situation. 2.45 pm Our aims are simple: we want people to recognise an Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): It is a emergency, to know that they should contact an ambulance pleasure both to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, immediately, and to administer CPR. Things have and to follow the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie changed—it is not the kiss of life now. Simply by doing Hilling). I am getting déjà vu; I think this is our fourth compressions in the right place, we can potentially keep debate on this issue—it would be easy just to dust off people going for 15 minutes or even longer and give our previous speeches. I have been supporting this them a good chance of survival. We want people to use campaign passionately, and I am delighted that next an automated defibrillator, and of course I support the Wednesday, I will be turning up at the Minister’s office campaigns to put them into as many public places as to have yet another push. It is a relentless campaign possible. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and from us, and like “The Shawshank Redemption”, surely Goole (Andrew Percy) has been tireless in raising that it would just be easier to agree with us. issue in debates and parliamentary questions. 31WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 32WH Curriculum Curriculum [Justin Tomlinson] arrhythmic death syndrome, known as SADS, from having the best chance of survival. SADS is the term We have pushed on this matter time and again. We used to describe heart conditions that can suddenly had the e-petition with 100,000 signatures. We have had affect seemingly healthy young people. It affects people visits to Downing street. This is, I believe, our fourth between the ages of 12 and 35, and Government statistics debate. We have had parliamentary questions. We have show that it causes the deaths of about 12 young people had meetings and, as I said, there is another one in a a week. However, the true figure is believed to be higher, week’s time. And we have responded; we have listened. because the condition is often misdiagnosed. Each of The challenge is that people do not like to be prescriptive those deaths is a personal tragedy. In my own constituency, in the national curriculum. I understand that. I also in February 2013, Philip Lamin suffered a fatal cardiac understand that at one point there were 150 campaigns arrest while playing football after school with his friends. pushing for things to be in the national curriculum, and He was 16. It was following that terrible event that I that when we asked for two hours in the curriculum, first met Juliet Lamin, Philip’s mother, who despite her that was too much. We have gone away and turned that terrible loss—Philip was her only child—has campaigned two hours into 30 minutes—the British Heart Foundation tirelessly to raise funds so that there are defibrillators in in particular has been fantastic on that point. A one-off every local school. Although we cannot say for certain 30-minute session can equip people with the skills to be that the presence of a defibrillator would have saved life savers. Philip’s life, statistics suggest that it would have hugely We are flexible. We are not proud. We do not mind increased his chances of survival. I want to take this whether the training takes place in biology or physical opportunity to commend Ms Lamin, who is listening to education lessons. It could take place during a school the debate, and the young people she works with for assembly. It could happen at the beginning or end of keeping this issue at the front of people’s minds and term. It could be given at any age. It could be part of raising awareness. Her relentless commitment and citizenship education. We do not care, as long as there is dedication are amazing. She is an inspiration. a 30-minute window at some point during the school A number of organisations, including the British cycle. Even more impressively—this is for the Treasury—the Heart Foundation, the British Red Cross, St John British Heart Foundation has already purchased all the Ambulance and SADS UK, have highlighted how packs, so there would be no cost to the Exchequer, and defibrillation, along with CPR, forms a crucial part of each pack includes a DVD, so staff would not need the chain of survival following a SADS attack or out-of- extensive training. As long as they can put a DVD in, hospital cardiac arrest. Last year I, like many of us, met we will be well on the way. the Oliver King Foundation, which is calling for the The hon. Member for Bolton West reeled off statistics introduction of legislation to make it compulsory for that showed how supportive of the idea teachers, defibrillators to be placed in all public buildings, including children and parents are. Her statistics were even more schools and sports centres, to help prevent the deaths of favourable than mine, so I have put a big red line many young people from SADS. At that time, the through mine in my notes. Importantly, we as politicians Oliver King Foundation had done excellent work in are not used to being popular, and this is an opportunity placing more than 450 defibrillators in public places for us to garner huge support from teachers, children across the country. Reportedly, those defibrillators have and parents. already started saving lives. We have to make this training compulsory. It needs to It is important to have defibrillators available, but it is fit somewhere in a child’s education. We can create a clear that their presence alone is not enough. Evidence generation of life savers. We have seen that, in countries suggests that a defibrillator is less likely to be effective if such as Norway, survival rates reach as high as 50%. In CPR has not been carried out before it arrives. However, this country, that would mean something like 5,000 more the lack of training and uncertainty about what to do people surviving every year, because of a simple 30-minute mean that, as we have heard, bystanders are reluctant to gesture. We have a duty to create the next generation of get involved even if there is a defibrillator at the scene. life savers, and I hope that we seize that opportunity. Many people say that even if it was for a loved one, they would be reluctant to get involved because they would not know what to do. Teaching people CPR and 2.52 pm defibrillator awareness in secondary schools would alleviate Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): It is a that fear. Youngpeople would leave school with knowledge privilege to speak under your chairmanship, Sir David. that could save a friend, a loved one or a stranger. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton The Government’s cardiovascular disease outcomes West (Julie Hilling) on securing this very important strategy, published in March 2013, recognised the need debate. She has spoken on this issue tirelessly during the to improve out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survival rates past five years, and I am sure that she will continue to and sought to increase the number of people trained in do so. CPR and defibrillator use. In April 2014, the Department As my hon. Friend pointed out, there is currently no for Education published guidance for schools on supporting mandatory requirement of teaching about CPR—first pupils with medical conditions. It encouraged schools aid—or public access defibrillators in the national to consider purchasing a defibrillator and stated that curriculum in England. That is denying generations of staff members trained in CPR young people the opportunity to develop life-saving “may wish to promote these techniques more widely”. skills that would benefit everyone. Today, however, I want to speak specifically about how the lack of CPR It also recognised the importance of training to the training and readily available defibrillators in schools confidence of bystanders. However, those were suggestions, and public places is preventing sufferers of sudden not mandatory requirements. 33WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 34WH Curriculum Curriculum Helping schools to purchase defibrillators is not enough Again, as an MP campaigning about issues that are when teachers and students are not confident enough to important to people in South Derbyshire, I have written use them. At present, although some schools may choose to my hon. Friend the Minister and we have spoken to cover basic first aid as part of their wider curriculum, about this issue. Our local St John Ambulance is keen others are free to ignore it completely. There is a lack of on it, the children are keen on it and the schools are consistency in the provision of that teaching, because if proud of what they are doing. Village hall committees a member of staff who champions first aid leaves the are helping to organise the defibrillators in their areas. school, there is no obligation to continue their good There is support from county councillors, such as Linda work. That means that first aid may be taught one year Chilton in the Melbourne area, which helped to pay for and not the next, which implies that it is not a serious one of the defibrillators. There is a huge ground swell of subject. Surely the Government’s next logical step should support. I genuinely believe that the time is right for be to make CPR and defibrillator awareness a mandatory Ministers to accept that it is a good idea, and to accept part of the national curriculum, because every week that there is an opportunity, perhaps after May, to put people are dying when simple CPR training, combined such skills on the curriculum. We are rolling out citizenship with the ready availability of defibrillators, could help classes and making sure that older children understand them to survive. Both need to be offered to ensure the the importance of politics and democracy. Only one maximum chance of survival. thing is more important than politics and democracy, Making CPR and defibrillator awareness part of the and that is living and breathing. I hope that the Minister school curriculum is widely supported by organisations, takes on board all the comments from everybody in the and polling of parents and teachers has shown that they Chamber, and I again congratulate the hon. Member support it, too. It cannot be right that people such as for Bolton West on ensuring that the debate is alive and Juliet Lamin and Philip’s young friends have to go from kicking today. school to school and youth club to youth club to raise awareness when it is us, the legislators, here in this place 3pm who can change the law to make it happen. I urge the Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I thank my hon. Minister to take on board all the comments that have Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who been made today and to take affirmative action to secured the debate, and the hon. Member for South ensure that CPR and defibrillator awareness are a Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler). The numbers that have mandatory part of the national curriculum for the been outlined during the debate speak for themselves. benefit of us all. More than 30,000 cardiac arrests occur out of hospital each year, and less than one in 10 people survive. That statistic should worry us all as MPs with constituents, 2.57 pm and as members of families and communities where Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I such deaths regularly occur year in, year out. Those congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie statistics mean that, if I were to have a cardiac arrest Hilling) on securing the debate. It is a pleasure to be outside hospital now, my chances of being able to go here today. We have followed this debate and issue for home and see my family tonight would be minimal. quite some time. Defibrillators have been popping up That does not have to be the case. In places around around village halls, swimming pools, leisure centres the world such as Seattle, parts of Holland and parts of and gyms across the whole of the South Derbyshire Norway, survival rates can reach 25%, which means constituency very much as a charitable, volunteer that a quarter of people who have out-of-hospital cardiac arrangement. Similarly, when the British Heart Foundation arrests make it home to see their loved ones. If we really kicked on with this campaign and made the offer matched the survival rates achieved in parts of Norway, of kit to schools, I, as a good constituency MP, wrote to we would save 5,000 lives a year. That is 5,000 families all my local schools and colleges about having the still together; 5,000 mothers, fathers and children together equipment put in, and I am delighted to say that the would see the benefits of such changes. William Allitt school, High Grange school, the Pingle I am proud to be the chair of the all-party group on school, Foremarke school and Granville sports college heart disease, and I have worked with the British Heart took up that offer. I have been into the Pingle school Foundation and colleagues in Parliament to push the and been with the children as they were having one of case that life-saving skills are essential for young people their lessons, pumping up and down on the dummy. and society, and that they should not be optional. I take Obviously, people can imagine which face I was imagining this opportunity to pay tribute to the British Heart as I was doing that—there are people we want to keep Foundation, which provides the secretariat to our all-party and people we perhaps do not want to keep—but it was group: chief executive Simon Gillespie, policy director a pleasure to be there with those children. Would the Mike Hobday, Maura Gillespie, Rachel Almeida, John hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) Howard and Susannah Kerr. The BHF has done great like to intervene? work on genetics, on the impact of sugars, salts and fats on heart disease, on plain packaging, on exercise and on Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): defibrillators. The CPR campaign is one of its most No, no. important campaigns because it is, quite literally, life saving. Heather Wheeler: The hon. Gentleman was just I will provide two examples from right here in Parliament. wondering who I was thinking of. That is fine. Bob Sheldon, an ex-MP who is now Lord Sheldon, died What I find fascinating is that there is no pushback—no outside Parliament about 15 years ago. Duncan Goodhew, pun intended—from the children. The children want to the swimmer, was walking past and saw it happen, and do this training. he brought Bob back to life. Paul Keetch, a former 35WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 36WH Curriculum Curriculum [Chris Ruane] in Scotland contains carers modules, and I am led to believe, although I still need confirmation on this, that Liberal Democrat MP, was flying from England to New CPR could well form part of such modules. That should York, and he died over Northern Ireland. He was not simply happen in one place; it should be rolled out lucky—I have to make sure I get this the right way across the whole of the UK. around—to be flying on a Virgin Atlantic plane, which had a defibrillator. The defibrillator was used and he Chris Ruane: I totally concur with my hon. Friend, was saved. If he had been in a British Airways aeroplane, and I am glad that he has made investigations about the he would not have been brought back and would not scene in Scotland. Nineteen MPs have attended this have survived. I apologise if I have got that the wrong debate, and dozens of others have signed early-day way around. motions, spoken in other debates and tabled parliamentary The incident involving young Samantha Hobbs has questions. Heart disease is the biggest killer in the already been relayed. I met Samantha and her mother country, and any political party that gets on top of the in Portcullis House when Samantha gave us a lesson matter will be given political credit for it. It is a non-party about how she saved her mum. It was absolutely lovely political issue, however, and it is great to see hon. to see mother and daughter still bonded with each other Members from across the House and across the United because of Samantha’s skills. The BHF campaign is a Kingdom here supporting the call for CPR and PAD. I great way to get the message across to the public: it tells hope that we will use our position in Parliament to us to pump the heart to the rhythm of “Stayin’ Alive”: influence our Front-Bench team, our Back-Bench team “Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin’ alive”. and our manifestos. I also hope that we will use our position as local leaders in our constituencies to influence Julie Hilling: Will my hon. Friend give way? schools and health authorities to ensure that the important issue of CPR and PAD is raised locally in our communities Chris Ruane: I will, as long as my hon. Friend does and nationally. not ask me to sing a duet with her. 3.7 pm Julie Hilling: Those of us who are more musically Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): It is challenged can do it to “Nellie the Elephant”. a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Chris Ruane: For those who are not impressed by the Hilling) on securing this incredibly important debate. examples I have given of people being saved—the mother I start my speech with a confession. When I first and daughter, Bob Sheldon and Paul Keetch—in cold- encountered the idea of putting CPR and life-saving hearted actuarial terms, the insurance industry reckons skills on the curriculum in the early days of this Parliament, that every person who dies prematurely costs the country I was sceptical about it. Unfortunately, I did as the £1 million in lost taxes, lost education and lost life. If we Whips keep telling me not to do and looked a little prevent 5,000 people from dying prematurely from heart further into the matter. I dug a little further and looked disease every year, the country will save £5 billion. Over at some information, and two things convinced me: the the next 10 years, the saving would be £50 billion. It statistics and the evidence from abroad. I was also makes economic sense, but most of all, it makes health influenced by the fact that I have the pleasure of occupying sense to introduce lessons about CPR. an office that is two doors away from that of my hon. Charities such as the British Heart Foundation are Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), doing their part. To date, 930 secondary schools across and it was unlikely that I would get away with holding a the country, plus two community groups in my constituency, view contrary to his for long. have signed up to help build a nation of life savers. As The statistics speak for themselves, and we have heard has been mentioned, the BHF is providing kits free of some of them this afternoon. There are some 30,000 charge to schools and clubs. The charity is doing its bit, out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in the UK each year. and it is time for the Government to meet it halfway and Survival across the UK is poor and highly variable, with help to deliver CPR and public access defibrillator survival rates of between 2% and 12%. Where ventricular awareness across the four nations. The BHF’s innovative defibrillation takes place, survival rates are slightly higher, “Call Push Rescue” training scheme teaches CPR and but fewer than one in five people survive. Half of PAD awareness in less than 30 minutes. It takes just cardiac arrests are witnessed by bystanders, but too few 30 minutes to save a life. people have the knowledge of CPR to make the difference Will CPR awareness sessions affect our children’s between life and death. maths and English? Will they reduce our children’s One of the most shocking statistics, and one that skills? Will they adversely affect our children’s standard prompted my interest in this issue, is that 12 children assessment tests, their GCSEs or their A-levels? Such under the age of 18, and many more adults, die in the training can be slotted into the curriculum in many UK each week from cardiac arrest. As somebody involved different ways, as has been said. For example, it could in youth sport, I felt passionate about making sure I got be taught in biology lessons or—my favourite option—in a better understanding of how this issue affects our PE lessons. The good thing about CPR is that it can be youngsters. We automatically think they are healthy taught anywhere in the school curriculum, and it must because they are young, but as we have seen from be possible to find 30 minutes somewhere in that curriculum. examples such as that of Fabrice Muamba, the fittest person can suffer a cardiac arrest. Mr Russell Brown: Since the meeting that my hon. For every minute that passes without defibrillation, a Friend and I attended last week, I have made inquiries victim’s chances of survival decrease by between 10% about what is being done in Scotland. The curriculum and 12%. A simple calculation shows that a victim is 37WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 38WH Curriculum Curriculum likely to have the maximum chance of survival up to The campaign has been assisted by Georgina, my between eight and 10 minutes after the cardiac arrest assistant in the constituency. She ran a marathon to occurs. With a current ambulance target response time raise funds for defibs in her town—Snodland—and the of eight minutes, time is of the essence, so acting village of Burham. I want to use this opportunity to quickly and using the appropriate therapy are essential. thank all the fundraisers from the schools, the scouts If the statistics do not speak for themselves, let us and the guides, as well as councillors, Georgina and the look at the international evidence. This country lags businesses that have supported us. Last but not least, I quite far behind on teaching youngsters and adults want to mention the people at Cardiac Science, who CPR and life-saving skills. In the US, 36 states have have supported us every step of the way. They were kind passed legislation to make sure youngsters learn emergency enough to tell Georgina that if she passed the finish skills. If an emergency ambulance is called, and immediate line—no matter what her time or how much she raised— bystander CPR is used, followed by early defibrillation, they would give her another defib. She managed to raise survival rates following cardiac arrest in those 36 states enough money for two defibs, and Cardiac Science gave can exceed 50%. In Seattle, CPR has been taught in her the third for free. That has been absolutely fantastic. school PE lessons for more than 30 years, and survival The campaign has been incredibly popular across the rates have increased by 52%. It is also on the curriculum area, but I have also learned some lessons from it, and in France, Denmark and Norway, where survival rates those have come later in the campaign. I targeted schools— have also increased. they are all secondary schools—with big sports In stark contrast, the UK has incredibly poor rates. communities. They open their facilities at the weekends, As my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon and they are also often open in the evenings for adult made clear, however, the British Heart Foundation’s learning, so we naturally put the defibs there—the only campaign to teach these skills has been well thought problem is that there is no access to the defibrillators through, and it is now being rolled out in many guises, when they are closed. As we have progressed with the using DVDs and other equipment. We can no longer campaign, therefore, we have made sure that the latest simply say there is too much pressure on the timetable. defibs are in locked, secure boxes and that people can After the hon. Member for Bolton West mentioned now ring the ambulance, get the code and get access to some statistics, my hon. Friend the Member for North the community defib. Swindon crossed his out, but they are the ones I want to If I am re-elected in May, I will carry on trying to get use. Some 86% of teachers think emergency life support as many defibs as possible across the constituency, should be part of the curriculum, 78% of children want because there are simply not enough. I also want to to be taught how to save someone’s life in an emergency raise enough funds to move the defibs from the inside to and 70% of parents think children should be taught the outside of schools so that they are available to the ELS at school. That would take as little as 0.2% of the whole community. school year, so by taking just two hours from their entire school life, children can learn to save a life. The teaching does not have to be prescriptive, contrary Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It is wonderful to what I originally thought—hence my early scepticism. to hear about the number of defibrillators around my It can be really flexible; as the hon. Member for Vale of hon. Friend’s constituency and about people’s access to Clwyd (Chris Ruane) said, we can teach essential life-saving them. My constituent Sean Doyle collapsed with a skills in PE, biology or assembly. There are so many heart attack at Greenhead park on the edge of my different ways we can teach them to children. constituency. He was fortunate that three doctors were running by that morning and saved his life. He has I want briefly to mention the campaign I have been raised funds for a defibrillator, which is now in the park. running in my constituency.Inspired by a better knowledge Does my hon. Friend agree, however, that the nub of of the statistics, and taking a lead from my hon. Friend the debate is making sure that people know how to use the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), I defibrillators and have the confidence to make a quick have been trying to ensure there is as much access as decision to save someone’s life? I hope we will get a possible to defibrillators across my constituency. The response from the Minister about people getting training campaign has been incredibly good in terms of not only in schools. ensuring that we have this life-saving equipment, but bringing people in communities together. We now have five defibs in schools across my constituency. Tracey Crouch: People do not actually need training At one secondary school, the opening ceremony was to use the modern defibs, which “talk” to people and done by the mum of a boy who goes to the school. He tell them exactly what to do. They will not administer a has a heart defect, and she came up to me afterwards shock if it is not required. They walk people through and said, “Every day, I said goodbye to my son when he the entire process, which is why I feel comfortable about went to school, and I wasn’t sure whether he would the number of defibs we are getting across my constituency. come home that evening. I have no idea what is going to To conclude, I would like to think that every child happen, but I feel a little safer now, knowing that this leaving primary school had the basic skills to put equipment is on site.” someone—whether an adult or a child—in the recovery We have defibs at Aylesford rugby club and Snodland position and to call for help. That is not asking too football club and in two of the three remote villages in much of our teachers or of children’s time in primary my constituency. The defib coming to Larkfield is being school. I would also like to think that, by the time supported—finally—by Tesco. To start with, the company children left secondary school, they had the confidence had misplaced concerns about liability, but we managed to use a defib and to do CPR. That is down to basic to reassure it that the defib will cause no liability issues. training, but that training could save a life. That is all Other defibs are coming to other parts of the constituency. that we, as legislators, should focus on. These proposals 39WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 40WH Curriculum Curriculum [Tracey Crouch] Departments and agencies, to be followed by businesses and community defibrillators, including first responder are not opposed by educationalists or teachers, and schemes. parents and children want them. They would be a real About a month ago in my constituency, a new first asset to our wider community. responders scheme was launched in the Ards peninsula and Kircubbin. It took nearly three years to get that 3.19 pm scheme going, because it was a Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety issue, but it happened Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to through working with the community. The hon. Member contribute to the debate, and I thank the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch)—I hope I for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) for her passionate can call her a friend as well—visited my constituency to introduction and for setting the scene. attend that event. She has seen what the scheme does, I doubt whether there is anyone present who has not the people who were trained, and the enthusiasm and heard me talking about the beauty, character and innovation energy that made the project happen. That is good to be found in Northern Ireland. We have much to offer news. the world, and it is a Northern Ireland innovation that I am informed that each year in Northern Ireland, has made it possible for us to be having today’s debate. approximately 1,400 cardiac arrests occur outside a The modern defibrillator was created by a man called hospital environment. Fewer than 10% of people who Dr Frank Pantridge, who has aptly been called the suffer an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survive to be father of emergency medication. Frank was an Ulster discharged from hospital. Indeed, each year in the UK Scot, hailing from just outside my constituency at about 30,000 people have an out-of-hospital cardiac Hillsborough, within the county that I serve—yet more arrest. For every minute that passes in cardiac arrest proof that the best always hails from Ulster. It is always before defibrillation, outside a hospital setting, the chances a pleasure to come and say that. of survival are reduced by 10%. I think most hon. Members will have caught sight of The Northern Ireland Chest Heart and Stroke medical dramas on television where a patient goes into Association has stated that it supports the provision of V-tach and the doctor shouts for the crash cart and lifesaving equipment in the community, but it does not jumps the heart into action. One small box has the itself provide emergency aid training or equipment. ability to completely change a patient’s life and that of However, it encourages sporting organisations to raise the people around them; that is how vital it is. Whenever funds to buy equipment such as defibrillators, and can someone suffers a cardiac arrest, early intervention and suggest suppliers of the equipment and associated training resuscitation are essential to improve the outcome, as services. Just two weeks ago, Rosemount Rec football other Members have said. That is why it is crucial that club in Greyabbey took delivery of a defibrillator, and defibrillators should be available, and that people should members have been trained to use it. It is available for be trained to use them. Training need not be terribly every football match—home and away, wherever they intensive, but it must help people who are unsure. There may be. It was good to see how the club did that. The is a way of talking people through the process. NICHSA also encourages clubs to set aside money to I want to provide a Northern Ireland perspective, give staff initial and recurring training in using the because I think the Minister and other hon. Members equipment. It is simple to use, and individuals who have will be pleased to hear about some of the things that we not been trained can still use it, but it is sensible to have done across the water. The hon. Member for Vale provide training. of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), who has just left the Chamber, I have been contacted by many community groups in mentioned that 19 Members from around the United my area that had saved for a defibrillator and needed Kingdom were in the Chamber. My local council, Ards training. I have had inquiries about defibrillators from borough council—soon to be North Down and Ards churches, and I have even liaised with Asda—I am not district council—has informed me that the life of a trying to promote it above any other supermarket, but gentleman who was swimming at the pool was saved, there is an Asda at the shopping centre. It has a defibrillator after the call went out and someone came running with in every one of its locations in Northern Ireland. That is a defibrillator and used it appropriately. The outcome all part of the work that has been done to make defibrillators would have been very different had the machine not available. been available, but it was, and it saved his life. Indeed, There was another event the week before last, along that has happened on many occasions. Such events are with that at Rosemount Rec football club, at Greyabbey not limited to TV medical dramas. They happen in real Presbyterian church, which had raised money for a life, and defibrillators, used correctly, save lives. defibrillator. The congregation, along with the community In Northern Ireland, we have a campaign called association, want to make another first responders Defibs4Kids, with the aim of putting defibrillators into defibrillator available in Greyabbey, in the Ards peninsula. schools. At the start, about 30 schools in Northern Those people are volunteers. Thankfully, defibrillators Ireland had defibrillators, but as of June last year the are becoming more available; the issue now is to see that number had risen to 170, and it is still rising. There is a people are trained in their use. Of course, the best place map online showing the schools that have defibrillators, to start is in school, so we are pursuing that strategy. and my colleague the Health Minister in Northern It is clear that groups, clubs and organisations take Ireland is overseeing that initiative. I know that the the issue seriously.The question is whether the Department matter is devolved, but perhaps other Departments may of Health takes it seriously enough. The Minister replying need to be involved to enable the initiative to progress. to the debate is in the Department for Education, but in The next phase of Defibs4Kids concerns the mapping Northern Ireland it is a Department of Health issue. of defibrillators in local and central Government When we hear of young footballers and rugby players 41WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 42WH Curriculum Curriculum dropping dead on the pitch, or active, healthy people constituency. Mountbatten school has become one of having a heart attack at the swimming pool, it brings the British Heart Foundation’s “nation of life savers” home what we need to do. Is it really fair to put the onus schools. entirely on a group or organisation to have the equipment Alongside access to defibrillators, there has to be and training on hand, or could and should the Government training. Modern defibrillators talk people through the help? process, and I have used a defibrillator that the Oliver I believe that aid and training can and should be King Foundation demonstrated to us in this place. I provided, and I await the Minister’s response, bearing in know how straightforward it is, but the issue of confidence mind that the matter is devolved to Northern Ireland. I still remains. It is easiest to imbue confidence into fully support what other hon. Members have said today, people when they are young. We have heard that school and the outline strategy is for defibrillators to be available pupils wish to learn CPR and, unlike those of us who in schools and other community places, and for help to could be described as middle-aged, they have no hesitation be provided for those who want to be prepared if the or trepidation; they get stuck straight in. We therefore unimaginable happens. have an important opportunity. I am a member of the Select Committee on Education, and on 17 February we published a report calling for 3.26 pm personal, social, health and economic education to be a statutory part of the curriculum. Many hon. Members Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) have pitched to the Minister this afternoon the idea that (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, CPR should be taught as part of physical education, Sir David. I add my congratulations to the hon. Member biology or, perhaps, citizenship, but I will of course for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) on securing this important make the pitch that CPR should be part of PSHE. I debate. cannot think of a more obvious place in the curriculum We have heard an awful lot of statistics and numbers for CPR. Of course, PSHE is not currently mandatory this afternoon, and I do not intend to dwell on those. I or statutory, and I have consistently called for it to be a will focus more on a personal case from my constituency— statutory part of our curriculum, as I firmly believe it the story of young Sam Mangoro, who was a 16-year-old should be. If we take that step, CPR should be a pupil at Mountbatten school in Romsey. Almost exactly mandatory element of PSHE. a year ago he suffered a heart attack and collapsed. His Last year, I spent a mere half an hour with St John heart stopped beating during a PE lesson. We heard the Ambulance in Romsey, and it reminded me of some stat that fewer than one in 10 who have a heart attack basic CPR training that I received a very long time ago outside hospital are likely to survive, but Sam was one when I was a member of the Brownies. I am proud to of the lucky ones. His PE lesson was being led by a have gained my Brownie first aid badge when I was teacher who was there for an interview—she was not about nine or 10, and CPR has not changed radically. even on the full-time staff. He collapsed, and she had Way back in the 1980s we were not doing CPR to the had training. tune of “Stayin’ Alive,” but St John Ambulance is keen Enormous credit is due to Mountbatten school, because to emphasise that that is the rhythm that people have to it was one of the few schools in my constituency that deploy—it is really straightforward. St John Ambulance had a defibrillator, which it had purchased some months also showed me again how to use the automatic previously. I will not say that that happened by chance; defibrillators. My hon. Friend the Member for North the chair of the governors had had a conversation with Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) is correct that CPR can be her son-in-law, who was a doctor for the air ambulance. taught very quickly—30 minutes is all it takes—and I He had explained to her in great detail why it was so urge the Minister, first, to consider the Education important to have defibrillators in public places where Committee’s plea that PSHE is made a statutory part of young people might play sport—because every minute the curriculum and, secondly, that PSHE is the right counted. As a result of that conversation the school place for CPR. purchased its first defibrillator, and on 6 March 2014 Sam Mangoro’s life was saved because the school had 3.32 pm staff trained in CPR and a defibrillator on the premises. The excellent news is that the whole Mountbatten Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I school community has now embraced the need for CPR congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton training, and two more defibrillators have been purchased. West (Julie Hilling) on securing the debate. She has As might be expected in a large rural constituency, the been assiduous in ensuring that the rest of us are held to school is on quite a large site, and the view was taken account on the issue, about which she feels very strongly. that three defibrillators were needed to provide sufficient It is surprising that, after the debate in the Chamber coverage and make one of them easily reachable anywhere on 22 November 2012, the issue remains unresolved on the campus should a child collapse. Mountbatten and that we find ourselves back here discussing largely school has led the way in Romsey, and Sam’s story was the same matters. On that occasion, the right hon. a wake-up call for many other schools in the area. I do Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), not say that it is commonplace, but it is not uncommon then children’s Minister, was positively effusive in her for schools in the constituency to have defibrillators. support for this idea, yet here we are in the dying days There is a great deal of awareness of the issue. I agree of the Parliament and we do not appear to be much with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) further forward. As my hon. Friend the Member for that first responders and similar groups are now more Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) has said, there likely to have defibrillators. Defibrillators can be seen is no requirement to teach life-saving skills in our schools. outside village pubs and community halls around my In some schools, children learn about automatic external 43WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 44WH Curriculum Curriculum [Steve McCabe] us, this is not about statistics; it is about real-life experiences that people may or may not survive. It is important to defibrillators or CPR, but the Government, as far as I bear that in mind, and we are clearly behind other am aware, have no settled policy on the issue. The countries in teaching CPR to young people. Minister might be able to help us on that point. According to the Red Cross, only about 20% of our In December 2014, the Minister for Schools was secondary school students learn first aid skills in the almost as effusive as the right hon. Member for South classroom, and it is estimated that less than 13% of West Norfolk, and perhaps even more so. He became pupils access some sort of CPR training at school. If we the first Education Minister to back adding first aid to ensured that school leavers were capable and confident the curriculum when he said that it should be a compulsory in performing CPR, as my hon. Friend the Member for part of personal, social, health and economic education, Bolton West said, an estimated 5,000 lives could be or PSHE, lessons. I understand that the Government’s saved each year. cardiovascular disease outcomes strategy recognises the Arguably, we are behind many of our European need to improve out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survival counterparts; countries such as France, Denmark rates and promotes an increase in the number of people and Norway all make life-saving skills such as CPR a trained in CPR and in the number of public access mandatory part of their school curriculums. For many defibrillators. What steps are the Government taking to years, they have used strategies ranging from self-learning increase the number of people with such training, as with DVDs and mannequins to structured teaching, part of their strategy? Schools seem an obvious place to which is exactly the model that Members have discussed start if we want to increase the numbers, and teacher today. training courses are another place where it might make Further afield, a recent statement by the American sense to try to increase training. I would be grateful if Heart Association concluded that CPR training should the Minister shed light on how the strategy is being be required for graduation from secondary school. I implemented, because that might go some way to addressing was told that 20 states have introduced such a requirement, some of the issues raised today. but I note that two Members have said that the number When the Secretary of State for Education was last is 36, so I bow to their superior research. I understand asked about the issue in a parliamentary question, the that most US schools use a CPR training kit that trains best she could offer was that the Department of Health 10 to 20 students at a time and takes 30 minutes, which was is not dissimilar from the approach recommended by “helping schools to procure defibrillators at a reduced price.”—[Official the British Heart Foundation and mentioned in the Report, 2 March 2015; Vol. 593, c. 672.] debate by several hon. Members. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said As my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd that there is often difficulty between Departments, and (Chris Ruane) said, international evidence suggests a I take that point, but what we are doing in schools substantial decrease in deaths associated with cardiac requires more than the Secretary of State to tell us that problems in countries where CPR training is mandatory the Department of Health has a policy to help to get in schools. In Norway, for example, survival rates are some cut-price defibrillators. 25% better than our own for individual cases of cardiac arrest. To compare the international story to our own, Jim Shannon: The first responders organisation on as I have said and others have repeated, only 20% of our the Ards peninsula, where I live and which I represent, students leave school having learned first aid, so we can has managed to buy half a dozen defibrillators at a see the scale of the problem facing us. reduced price. The organisation has obviously negotiated As was mentioned earlier, when asked in a recent that price and made defibrillators more financially available. survey, almost all secondary school students stated that they would want to help a friend or family member Steve McCabe: Most people would agree with anything needing emergency first aid, but 94% said that they that could be done to make the equipment available at needed further training before they would feel capable reduced cost. of doing so. A further half of secondary school students As I understand it, the Department for Education admitted to feeling nervous and panicking in such non-statutory guidance encourages schools to consider situations. The issue is further exacerbated; a British purchasing a defibrillator as part of their first aid stock, Heart Foundation survey found that barely a third of and the guidance also suggests that staff members who respondents would know how to perform CPR on a are already appointed as first aiders might wish to friend or family member. That is worrying when we promote first aid techniques more widely in the school consider the number of people at risk. among teachers and pupils. That is the end of my As I understand it—other Members here may be pre-election knockabout, because I recognise that the better informed than me—it is likely that CPR training bulk of the debate has been relatively consensual. I will would be confined to the secondary sector, as young not pursue the Minister any further. primary-aged children frequently lack the physical strength Like others, I recognise that every year some 150,000 to carry out CPR on adults. In their case, training people die in situations in which first aid could have would probably involve general awareness, maybe about made a difference. According to the British Heart the appropriateness of dialling 999 or putting someone Foundation, more than 30,000 people suffer out-of-hospital into the recovery position, as the hon. Member for cardiac arrests in the UK each year. Some hon. Members Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) said. It seems said that fewer than one in 12 survives, but my researcher to me that it would not exactly be a daunting task to told me that the figure is fewer than one in 10—we teach that to primary school children; the British Heart know that not enough people survive. As the hon. Foundation claims that its training takes about 30 minutes. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) reminded The hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North 45WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 46WH Curriculum Curriculum (Caroline Nokes) reminded us that the Select Committee hon. Member for Bolton West. I am pleased to confirm on Education recommended in its recent report “Life that as of 6 March, 227 confirmed orders under the scheme Lessons” that PHSE should be compulsory in schools. had been placed, for a total of 291 AEDs. I will conclude by summarising the Labour position. My hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire We are committed to ensuring that life-saving skills are (Heather Wheeler) touched on the important role that taught in all our schools, and we are happy to talk to AEDs can play in communities. Many schools view a schools and teachers about the best way to ensure that community-access AED as a tangible contribution that that happens. As we heard earlier from the hon. Member they can make to their community. The AED guide for Romsey and Southampton North, some people suggests that schools might wish to consider community think that this should be part of PSHE while others access where such a solution also meets the needs of suggest that it should be included in the physical education staff members. curriculum. There is some debate. The PSHE Association Access to an AED is only part of the story. Every wants a programme of study that includes emergency second is important when someone suffers a cardiac life-saving skills. arrest, and first aid skills are vital to ensuring that help Schools might also use organisations such as the Red is available when it is most needed, as my hon. Friend Cross, St John Ambulance, the Royal Life Saving Society the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) or others to provide relevant resources and training. As pointed out from his own experience when his father we have heard in the debate from a variety of Members, had a cardiac arrest. I see why he is so passionate about several local organisations and campaigns could be the issue; he is an indefatigable campaigner on it, as he utilised to that end. The hon. Member for Chatham and is on other life skills in the curriculum. Aylesford described the arrangements in her area to Therefore, the guide is clear about the importance of supply equipment, which showed what a community defibrillation and of CPR in the chain of survival. effort it can be. The hon. Member for Strangford told Schools will already have first aiders trained in CPR, an encouraging story about what progress can be made, but there is no reason they cannot use the purchase of but he also served to remind us that, at times, Departments an AED as an impetus to promote knowledge of those can be good at getting in the way. If ever there were a skills more widely within the school community; indeed, case for joined-up government, it is on issues such as the Department for Education’s guide suggests that this. schools do that, and we hope that many of them will What matters more than anything is that we stop choose to do so. discussing and start doing. Under Labour, life-saving The hon. Member for Bolton West made a powerful skills, including CPR where age-appropriate, will be case that we should go further, persuasively arguing for taught in all schools. CPR and life-saving skills to be included in the national curriculum. Similarly powerful speeches were made by 3.46 pm my hon. Friends the Members for North Swindon, for South Derbyshire, for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey The Minister of State, Department for Education Crouch), and for Romsey and Southampton North (Mr Nick Gibb): That is the third education policy (Caroline Nokes). I listened carefully to the story of the announced by the Opposition during this Parliament; I PE teacher attending an interview at Mountbatten school congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly and all I can say is that I hope to goodness that they Oak (Steve McCabe). It is a pity that he does not have a were given the job of PE teacher at that school. few more to put to the electorate in two months’ time. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Caroline Nokes indicated dissent. Sir David; it is the parliamentary assessment board all over again. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) on securing the debate. Mr Gibb: If not, I am sure that he or she has been snapped up elsewhere. There is nothing more important than keeping children, and indeed the staff who teach them, safe in our schools. We heard powerful speeches from the hon. Members This Government have already done a great deal to for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) and for Vale ensure that defibrillators are more widely available in of Clwyd (Chris Ruane); I am sure the latter will receive schools. In answer to the question asked by the hon. a letter from either Willie Walsh or Richard Branson, Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, we have encouraged depending on which airline did not have a defibrillator. all schools to consider purchasing automated external There was also a powerful speech from the hon. Member defibrillators, or AEDs, as part of their first aid equipment. for Strangford (Jim Shannon). We refer to that in the new statutory guidance on I recognise that the intention of the hon. Member for supporting pupils with medical conditions at school. Bolton West is to ensure that more people have the In November last year, we launched new arrangements knowledge and skills that could prove so valuable in to help schools to purchase high-quality AEDs at a assisting a child, teacher or someone visiting a school significantly reduced price. To make that as easy as who suffers a cardiac arrest. However, whether teaching possible, we also produced a guide, “Automated external such knowledge and skills should be an addition to the defibrillators (AEDs): A guide for maintained schools national curriculum is another question. and academies”, covering the issues that schools might The new national curriculum, which came into force wish to consider when purchasing an AED, including in September 2014, represents a clear step forward for location, maintenance and access to training. It was schools. It will ensure that all children have the opportunity developed in collaboration with NHS ambulance services to acquire the essential knowledge in key academic and and other specialists, including Dr Andy Lockey of non-academic subjects. However, I am afraid that it has the Resuscitation Council, who was mentioned by the now become somewhat routine for Education Ministers 47WH First Aid Techniques: National 10 MARCH 2015 First Aid Techniques: National 48WH Curriculum Curriculum [Mr Gibb] for the core academic subjects that we want children to learn. However, that does not mean that we do not to come to such debates to make the case against the think those other things should be taught in schools. inclusion of a particular new requirement in the national CPR is included in the non-statutory PSHE programme curriculum. Proposals such as this are often supported of study produced by the PSHE Association, which by a persuasive argument, but their sheer number means should please my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey that we need to start from a position of caution when and Southampton North. That suggested programme addressing them. of study, which was produced by some of the leading The national curriculum creates a minimum expectation experts in PSHE teaching, includes teaching young for the content of curriculums in maintained schools. people how to recognise and follow health and safety Quite deliberately, it does not represent everything that procedures and ways to reduce risk and minimise harm a school should teach. Also, schools do not have a in risky situations, and how to use emergency and basic monopoly on the provision of education to children; first aid. Many schools also make use of organisations parents and voluntary groups outside school also play such as the Red Cross and St John Ambulance to an important role. provide information to young people about first aid and Many schools choose to include CPR and defibrillator dealing with emergencies. awareness as part of their PSHE teaching. In the The British Heart Foundation has been mentioned introduction to the new national curriculum, we have by a number of hon. Members. It has offered to provide highlighted the expectation that PSHE should be taught, free CPR training kits to every secondary school in the and improving the quality of PSHE teaching is a priority country, allowing young people to gain first-hand experience of this Government. However, we do not want to prescribe of that important life-saving skill. The training kit exactly which issues schools should have to cover in covers how and when to perform CPR on an adult or PSHE or other related parts of what we would call the child; how and when to put someone in the recovery school curriculum, as opposed to the national curriculum. position, which was referred to in the debate; and how Prescribing a long list of specific content to be covered and when to use a public access defibrillator. It contains could be unproductive, leading to a tick-box approach an educational DVD demonstrating how to carry out that did not properly address the most important issues. CPR while trainees join in by using mannequins, so that Nor would it ensure that schools addressed those matters no instructor is needed. The kit includes 35 mannequins, that were most relevant to their pupils. Indeed, we enabling every pupil in a class to learn CPR together. should trust schools to provide the right education for We will work with the British Heart Foundation to their pupils, within the overall framework of the national promote that kit to schools. Indeed, the DFE is notifying curriculum. all schools of the foundation’s “Call, Push, Rescue” kit in the next all-school termly e-mail, and we will continue Julie Hilling: I had some optimism at the start of the to work with the foundation to promote its resources, as Minister’s speech, but I have come back to a state of well as those provided by St John Ambulance and the depression after listening to what he has had to say. He British Red Cross, to all schools. is talking about a list of issues that come to him, but Many schools are already making good use of the how many of them could save 150,000 lives a year and resources and opportunities that are available to teach how many would combine a range of issues including CPR, and to raise awareness of public access defibrillators. citizenship and boosting confidence? I ask him to consider At Fulford school in York, for example, CPR training is the fact that this subject potentially has a special, indeed managed by the deputy head teacher as part of his unique, position in our national curriculum. responsibility for pastoral care and character. One day each year is set aside to train all year 7 students; CPR Mr Gibb: I am not arguing against the inclusion of training is part of their personal development lessons. CPR in a school’s teaching curriculum; I am arguing At the last training session, around 30 teachers stayed about whether teaching these things should be statutory. behind to help and to learn the skills themselves. Feedback There is more than one way to achieve an objective. from the parent council has been favourable, as has Also, if we look at the list of issues that people argue been the response from students. should be included for consideration in the national Other schools approach the training in a different curriculum, we see that many of them would save a way. For example, at Devonport high school for boys, significant number of lives each year: relationships; CPR training sessions using the “Call, Push, Rescue” drugs and alcohol; emotional and mental health, and kit have been run in PSHE classes on Friday mornings. well-being; emergency life support skills; homelessness; Since the school received the kit, year 10 students from forced marriage; violence; transgender issues; tobacco; three of the school’s six houses have undertaken the training. animal welfare; bullying; gambling; gender equality; I again thank the hon. Member for Bolton West and cancer; symptoms of brain tumours in young people; other hon. Members for their thoughtful and constructive fire and road safety; body image; the UN declaration on contributions to the debate. I reassure them that I agree the rights of the child; environment; the dangers of with them about the value and importance of first aid carbon monoxide; cooking; media literacy; knife crime; skills, and I also support access to defibrillators in parenting; chess; and foetal alcohol spectrum disorder. schools. Although we do not believe that adding teaching Those are all specific cases where Governments, including on those issues to the national curriculum would advance the previous Government, have been lobbied over the the cause most effectively, we will always remain open years for things to be included in the national curriculum. to further discussions about the best way to promote It would be easy for any Minister—Conservative, Labour those issues to schools and to ensure that schools have or Liberal Democrat—to say yes to those issues, only to the resources they need to keep their staff and pupils find that there was little time in the national curriculum safe. 49WH 10 MARCH 2015 Lake Lothing: Crossings 50WH

Lake Lothing: Crossings crossing for their demise, but poor infrastructure to and around the town has hampered attempts to attract new businesses to the area. 3.58 pm The problems faced by coastal communities such as Lowestoft, which include inadequate infrastructure, are Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): It is a pleasure to deep-rooted and will not be addressed in five years. serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, and to raise However, since 2010 policies and initiatives have been the issue of a third crossing over Lake Lothing in put in place, and projects have been carried out, that Lowestoft. This is a matter of great importance to those will reverse the decline and enable the necessary road living and working in the Lowestoft area. There has infrastructure to be built that can bring sustained economic been a need for such a crossing for many years. growth back to Lowestoft. Lake Lothing, around which the port of Lowestoft is based, splits the town into two parts. At present there First, the Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth enterprise are two crossings: the bascule bridge at the eastern end, zone has been a great success, with 40 new buildings close to the town centre and the outer harbour, and a now completed and £19 million of private sector investment crossing at Mutford lock to the west, at Oulton Broad. secured, including the developments on the Riverside The two crossings are inadequate, and congestion frequently business park, which adjoins Lake Lothing. On his builds up, particularly when the bascule bridge opens to recent visit to Lowestoft, the Prime Minister announced allow vessels into and out of the inner harbour. A poor plans for the future expansion of the enterprise zone, road network has blighted the town for a long time. It is which could include land in the surrounding area. To a disincentive to people to go into the town and is realise the full potential of the enterprise zone and the preventing businesses from moving there or expanding assisted area designation, good road infrastructure is there. required, including a third crossing. The challenge of building the third crossing has been Secondly, a major constraint on realising the full considered many times over the years. It is not a economic potential of the Lake Lothing area has been straightforward task, although I believe that in the past the lack of adequate flood defences. That was all too five years the building blocks have been put in place apparent during the storm surge of 5 December 2013, that will enable the bridge to be built at last. I propose which hit the area particularly hard. It is vital for to explain why that is the case and what now needs to be businesses investing in their premises that flood defences done to take the scheme forward. The bridge will bring are in place. Thus it is welcome that funding has been benefits not only to north Suffolk but to East Anglia secured for a £25 million flood protection scheme. This and the United Kingdom, by developing the regional major engineering project will be constructed over the economy. next few years, during which time temporary arrangements will be put in place to provide the necessary protection. I am particularly pleased that the Under-Secretary of Addressing that problem means that developments can State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for proceed, which in turn focuses attention on providing Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), will be responding better road infrastructure. to this debate. Last summer, he started his fact-finding drive along the A47 from the centre of Lowestoft. He Thirdly, Lake Lothing is not the only pinch point in arrived early on the train. I drove him around Lake the Lowestoft road network, and work is taking place Lothing and he saw for himself both the problem of the to sort the others out. The Oulton Broad North level bridge and the great potential that can be unlocked by crossing is a major cause of congestion, but a solution building the third crossing. to improve the situation has been found. When the railway line to Norwich is re-signalled, the platform will I want to provide some historical context. There have be extended and the signal board repositioned, so that been two crossings of Lake Lothing, approximately in trains can run into the platform while the crossing their current positions, since 1830 when the first swing remains open to traffic. That work should be completed bridge was installed, linking the town centre to Kirkley in 2016 and will result in a considerable reduction in the and Pakefield. That bridge was replaced in 1897 with time for which the barriers are down, during which another swing bridge, the Jubilee bridge, which lasted congestion builds up along Bridge road, Normanston until 1969, when it broke down. It was replaced in 1972 drive and Gorleston road. with the current bascule bridge. Two bridges over Lake Lothing were adequate while the main transport routes The long-awaited final phase of the northern spine to Lowestoft were by sea and rail, but it was apparent road, which removes traffic from the Bentley drive area even before world war two, with more reliance on road to the north of the town, will be completed in the next transport, that there was a need for a third bridge and few weeks. The scheme is taking place as a result of a that its absence was hampering plans to bring new £4.63 million pinch point fund grant from the Government. employment opportunities to the town. The problem A relief road for Lowestoft has in effect been built in was compounded by the decision to construct a three-lane phases over the past 30 years, and the new section of the bascule bridge, which was illogical when one takes into northern spine road is the penultimate item of work. account that there are four, and now sometimes five, The final piece in the jigsaw, which will link them all lanes of traffic approaching it. together and join the north of the town to the south, is In the past 35 years, much of Lowestoft’s rich and the third crossing. It is thus right that we now focus our proud industrial heritage has gone. The fishing industry attention on its delivery. is a pale shadow of its former self, the canning factory Fourthly, for too long during the past 40 to 45 years and the coachworks have long since closed, and there we have built roads in a piecemeal, scattergun way, has been a move away from traditional home-based rather than by pursuing a strategic planned approach. tourism. It would be wrong to blame the lack of a third That explains why the gestation period for many projects 51WH Lake Lothing: Crossings10 MARCH 2015 Lake Lothing: Crossings 52WH

[Peter Aldous] are likely to result from the completion of the northern spine road, new housing and new business development; is elephantine and why some schemes are woefully full ground condition surveys and environmental inadequate almost from the day they open, as was the investigations; an assessment of the impact of any case with the new bascule bridge in 1972. scheme on existing buildings, including those that might In the past year there have been encouraging signs have to be demolished; and the likely cost of necessary that a strategic approach will be pursued in future, as land acquisitions. the Government have carried out feasibility studies on Thirdly, the business case for the third crossing needs six trunk roads as part of their road investment strategy. to be worked up. Lowestoft has three economic assets: One of those roads was the A47, which links north the port, the town centre and the south beach. At Suffolk and Norfolk to the A1 at Peterborough. The present, all three fail to realise their full potential due to A47 is at present of poor quality along much of its the dysfunctional road system that serves them. The 119-mile length, and its unreliability has meant that it third crossing can solve that problem, thereby creating has not functioned properly as the gateway to growth hundreds of new jobs. We must demonstrate how that that it should have been. In December, the Government will be achieved. announced an initial investment of £300 million for I am seeking Government support and assistance to upgrading the A47, to include some dualling, junction take the scheme forward. The necessary background improvements and extending the road to Lowestoft. and preparatory work has been carried out, but we now This is good news, but it is not the endgame. It is only need to move forward on two fronts. First, a full, the beginning of a campaign for a full dual carriageway credible and robust scheme needs to be prepared. The link from Lowestoft to the A1. That would enable the New Anglia local enterprise partnership and Suffolk road to function properly as a gateway to growth and county council have indicated that they will carry out ensure that the whole area along the length of the road that work if the Department for Transport confirms realised its full potential. It would create an estimated that it will give the scheme full and serious consideration additional 17,000 jobs and an increase of £706 million and there is a reasonable expectation that funding for per annum in economic output across the region. The the bridge’s construction will be forthcoming. Will the new, upgraded A47 now starts on the south bank of Minister provide that confirmation? Lake Lothing, which provides the context within which we can now plan for the third crossing. Secondly, the work is detailed and will take some time to complete. While it is ongoing, it is important A start has been made, with Suffolk county council that short-term improvements are carried out to ensure commissioning WSP consulting engineers to provide an that traffic flows more smoothly and to relieve congestion. overview of options both to the east, close to the Later this year, tidal flow arrangements over the Bascule bascule bridge, and in the centre of Lake Lothing. The bridge, which are necessary as a result of the bridge study considered the engineering feasibility, the budget having only three lanes, are due to be improved. The old costs and the likely effect on traffic movements of the signs and signalling equipment will be replaced. It is options, and concluded that bridge crossings both in important that that work takes place on time. The the centre of Lake Lothing and to the east are technically Highways Agency is working with Suffolk county council feasible. From analysis of the report, it is clear that on proposals to improve key junctions around the town, more detailed work is required to produce a robust including the nearby Pier terrace, the Asda roundabout, scheme that everyone can get behind and that can be Tom Crisp way and its junction with Blackheath road, promoted to secure funding for the bridge’s construction. and the junction by the Flying Dutchman. Will the There are further issues that need to be addressed. Minister do all he can to ensure that those works take First, there is bridge’s location. It needs to be in a place as soon as possible? position that both enables traffic to flow smoothly For nearly 80 years, there has been a need for a third around the town and enables the port and the businesses crossing over Lake Lothing, but requests to Governments located there to realise their full potential and make of all colours have fallen on deaf ears. As a result, many the most of the exciting job opportunities emerging in people in Lowestoft feel let down by and alienated from the offshore energy sector. When one looks at how the those in Westminster. To get the third crossing built will various phases of what is in effect the Lowestoft relief not be easy. Plenty of challenges lie ahead, but there are road have been built over the past three decades, one reasons to be optimistic. First, the Government recognise sees that the obvious location for the crossing, to enable the need for a strategic approach to building such large traffic to flow smoothly, is at the centre of Lake Lothing. local infrastructure projects. It is helpful that the crossing During that time, port operations have changed and is now on a strategic route, the A47, which has been vessels have got bigger. If the crossing is to be in that identified as a growth corridor. Secondly, the acceptance location, it must be a high-level bridge that does not of the need for such projects to be driven by local have a negative effect on the potential to bring jobs to people and local businesses who know their area best, Lowestoft and that serves the emerging offshore renewables rather than by the man from Whitehall, is encouraging. sector. Lowestoft is well placed to benefit from those Those people are better placed to understand what a opportunities, due to its geographic position close to scheme such as the third crossing can do for the Lowestoft wind farms, the skills built up in the oil and gas sector and East Anglian economy. Finally, the success of the over the past 40 years and the town’s growing reputation enterprise zone illustrates and confirms Lowestoft’s great for expertise in offshore renewables technology. potential, but that can be fully realised only by first-class Secondly, the report identifies further work that needs infrastructure. In summary, there is a real opportunity to be carried out to arrive at the optimum solution. to build the third crossing. I look forward to the Minister’s That includes further traffic monitoring, taking into reply on how the Government will work with local account not only existing traffic flows but changes that people to turn that dream into a reality. 53WH Lake Lothing: Crossings10 MARCH 2015 Lake Lothing: Crossings 54WH

4.14 pm Cambridge, Milton Keynes and Oxford by rail. Those are some of the fastest growing urban centres in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport country. (Mr Robert Goodwill): It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I congratulate my hon. Friend The local road networks in Lowestoft are vital for the the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on securing local economy and for the journeys that residents make this debate on the third crossing over Lake Lothing in day in, day out. As Members will know, local roads are Lowestoft. I know that the subject is of great importance the responsibility of the local highway authority, which to him and his constituents, including businesses within for Lowestoft is Suffolk county council. From 2011 to the area, and he spoke eloquently. I visited Lake Lothing 2015, Suffolk county council received £74 million from and Lowestoft on 4 July as a prelude to my epic road Government for the maintenance of its local road network, trip along the A12/A47 that culminated at Peterborough. with a further £18.5 million for local transport I know that the road is very important for a number of improvements. As my hon. Friend the Member for Members whose constituencies lie along it, not least my Waveney mentioned, we have also invested in addressing hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), known areas of local congestion through the Department’s who I note is in her place. local pinch point fund. In May 2013, Suffolk county council secured £4.6m of Department for Transport Lowestoft is an important centre in Suffolk and the funding towards the £6.6 million cost of completing the east of England. While its traditional industries, such as Lowestoft northern spine road. That work is due to be fishing and tourism, have declined over the years, the completed shortly and will allow better traffic flows and town has begun to develop as a key centre of the a quicker route to the northern part of the A12. Members renewable energy industry in the UK. As with any key will be aware that we have made some substantial centre, having good transport links is vital for continued changes to how we fund local transport schemes. As economic growth. With its particular geography—indeed, part of the growth deal process, we have a more I believe it is the most easterly point of the British decentralised and devolved system through the local mainland—Lowestoft needs good connectivity to compete growth fund. That gives real decision-making power to effectively. That goes for the country as a whole, and the local areas, allowing them to develop and prioritise key Government certainly recognise the importance of an projects to best help to realise economic growth in their effective transport infrastructure to the economy and to areas. delivering improvements targeted at supporting economic growth. That is why just before Christmas the Government Transport projects play an important part in the announced the road investment strategy—the biggest process. The initial round of the local growth fund upgrade to our motorways and key trunk roads in a allocated about £6 billion to areas around the country, generation. It is a £15 billion programme to triple about £3 billion of which went to proposed new transport annual investment by the end of the decade. It represents schemes. The local enterprise partnership for the east of an enormous opportunity to transform the roads that England benefited, with £173 million allocated in the traverse our nation and includes an unprecedented £3 billion July growth deal announcement. A considerable amount of investment for the east of England, of which some of that allocation is for transport projects. In addition, £1.5 billion is new investment. a further £48.5 million was made available to the LEP through the second stage announced in January. The key artery of the A47/A12 will see a £300 million package of improvements that includes dualling of three Many local transport schemes, such as the third sections of the route and improvements to the Acle crossing over Lake Lothing, will look for funding to Straight and junctions around Norwich and along the further rounds of the local growth fund. However, the A12 in and around Great Yarmouth. The aim is to process is competitive and the funding is not a bottomless address challenges and reduce congestion, delays and pit. Only the projects that produce the most compelling accidents on that key corridor. As part of the improvement business case will be successful in securing funding, and package, we also plan to renumber the section of the they will also need to be top priorities for the LEP, as it A12 between Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft as the determines which schemes are needed to deliver economic A47. The renaming will better reflect the route’s nature growth in the LEP area. as a continuous corridor. Time scales for the next stages A third crossing at Lowestoft has been under of work are due to be published in the Highways consideration for some time now. I am aware that the Agency’s delivery plan, which is expected to be published Highways Agency commissioned a feasibility report later this month. into the options for a crossing at Lake Lothing a Improving our national networks is about not just number of years ago, and I note the recent report roads, but railways. They are all part of the picture of commissioned by Suffolk county council to look at improving connectivity, of which the proposed third options for a new crossing. There have also been a crossing is a vital part. The Government support the number of public-facing events to gauge local opinion key recommendations put forward by the Great Eastern on the location and design of the options. The prospect main line taskforce. The group wants to see better rail of a third crossing appears to generate considerable journey times to East Anglia, with the journey to Norwich local support, and I appreciate that my hon. Friend reduced to 90 minutes—the “Norwich in 90” campaign. welcomes the momentum behind the project. We want to see bidders for the new Greater Anglia The Government would look to support well-evidenced franchise incentivised to submit plans for achieving local major transport schemes that are prioritised by these recommendations for services and other associated the local enterprise partnership, would help to deliver benefits along the Great Eastern main line. In addition, local growth, and offer good value for money. We know east-to-west rail connectivity is important. We understand that local residents are frustrated by the town’s long-standing that good progress is being made on the ambitious traffic problems and want a solution, which is why, in east-west rail project, which aims to link Ipswich, Norwich, July last year, the New Anglia local enterprise partnership 55WH Lake Lothing: Crossings 10 MARCH 2015 56WH

[Mr Robert Goodwill] The Hague Abduction Convention secured £100,000 through the local growth fund towards development work to look at the options for a third 4.30 pm river crossing in Lowestoft. That funding will enable the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is a pleasure to meet LEP to develop a more detailed technical feasibility under your chairmanship at this stage of the afternoon, study for the project. It is now for the LEP and its key Sir David. partners to take that work forward. The subject of the debate is The Hague abduction As part of the next steps, I urge my hon. Friend and convention, which is more fully known as The Hague all the interested local partners to continue to help to convention on the civil aspects of international child take the project forward; to help to build an effective abduction. It dates back to 1980 and has force in UK and convincing evidence base; to continue to gather law under the Child Abduction and Custody Act 1985. strong local support; and to continue to develop that Many of us, as MPs, will have come across the convention, support through the LEP. We want to see local areas perhaps from a number of different angles depending creating the best local infrastructure solutions for growth. on constituents’ experiences. Such experiences can be I thank my hon. Friend for raising this important brought to us either directly or by families whose members topic, which I know has generated considerable local want to use the convention to try to ensure the restoration interest. I also thank him for highlighting the issues in of a parent’s due and wanted relationship with a child, Lowestoft. It is now for the LEP and local partners to or by constituents or their families who feel that their take forward the assessment work and to consider the family has been affected by a case taken under the outcomes and the best way to take the proposal forward. convention in which their circumstances, or how events unfolded, have not been fully understood or appreciated. 4.23 pm The purpose of the debate is not to pretend that any Sitting suspended. of us in such cases, or in the general balance or mix of cases that we get, should look at the subject from the perspective of one interest or another, whether that of the parent who has custody of a child or that of the parent who is seeking custody under the convention. The real reason for proposing the topic for debate occurred to me in the light of experience. Some of that experience relates to a particular case; some relates to a few other cases in recent years in my constituency and in the wider area of north-west Northern Ireland.

4.32 pm Siting suspended for a Division in the House.

4.44 pm On resuming—

Mark Durkan: As I was saying before the Division, I was prompted to introduce the debate by a number of issues and observations that have arisen from cases that have been shared with me by Foyle Women’s Aid—not all relate directly to people in my constituency, but all those involved have been using the support of Foyle Women’s Aid—and from some other cases. I stress that at no point will I be questioning specific decisions in specific cases, nor will I be naming any of the people involved in the cases. That is partly because of the sensitivity of a current case, which I suppose has most prompted me to raise the issue. Just this week, a woman has had to return to Australia with her child, who was born in my constituency, on the basis of decisions that have been made following a case taken under The Hague convention. I stress that I am not trying to involve the Minister in anything that would rightfully be within the purview of the devolved Department of Justice in Northern Ireland. Perhaps more importantly, I assure Ministers not just here, but in Northern Ireland, that in no way am I trying to second-guess any decision by any judge of the Northern Ireland courts. I want to be very clear that the Lord Chief Justice should have no concern with any of the aspects of the debate that I will raise here today. I do 57WH The Hague Abduction Convention10 MARCH 2015 The Hague Abduction Convention 58WH not believe that Members should use any forum of the the hands of the other parent or where they say they House to try to second-guess or overturn decisions of have evidence of ill treatment or questionable treatment judges or the courts. by the other parent of the child. Rather, the issues I want to raise today are about It seems that the courts tend to set a very high whether we as legislators need to give more consideration threshold in relation to consideration of any such evidence, to The Hague convention as it stands, whether the 1985 and also then say that it would not be for them to Act is sufficient and whether additional light needs to determine anyway, but would be for the court in another be shed on the issue, given all the experience and jurisdiction if the child was to be returned to that other understanding we now have in relation to the changes jurisdiction. It seems that in child abduction cases the to family life and our understanding of it. There is also courts and the legal profession find themselves almost greater internationalisation of life now and far more adopting a standard akin to the rules of the road. For complicated trans-jurisdictional arrangements are in instance, in car accident cases it is automatically presumed place. Also, a more acute understanding has arisen as to that if a person has driven into the back of another car, the limited regard that different aspects of the law have the liability lies with that person. It does not matter had for key principles such as the best interests of the about any other circumstances or conditions; the court child. There is also the question whether the law is duly does not want to know. It is straightforward. responsive to any evidence or allegations that arise I hear such a message from people who have handled about conditions of abuse that might have affected a a number of cases, and the woman who has this week child or that might affect a partner. had to return to Australia felt that she was in such a situation. Others have observed that the evidence that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman she had been raising and pursuing was essentially set has raised an important issue. A parent whose child has aside. That is not because the court did not want to been abducted will be aware that their access to legal aid know or because judges wanted to be insensitive to that, is restricted. Given the vulnerability of all the parties but that is not how the stands and it is not how the law involved, does he agree that it is vital to ensure that they tests such things. Essentially, for the court, the real issue all have the assurance that they will be represented was to decide where the jurisdiction on the matter fairly? should rest, and the court has basically said that any of the other issues would be for a court in Australia to Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising decide. That point does not stand alone. that point. Legal aid is a key issue for anyone involved The mother obviously appealed the decision that was at either end of cases such as these, whether they want made in respect of her and her two and a half-year-old to bring a case to have their child restored to their child, but she had to give undertakings. On losing the custody or they find themselves accused and become a appeal, she had to sign the following: defendant in such a case. The question of legal aid, and “The Appellant agrees not to institute, encourage or pursue the restrictions on it, is particularly acute. Although any criminal proceedings whether in Northern Ireland or Australia, Ministers have, perhaps understandably, changed position against the Respondent in respect of any of the allegations made on some elements of legal aid because of more specious against the Respondent in the course of the Hague Convention cases or cases in which people were testing any sort of proceedings.” claim culture connected to accidents, the fact is that, for Here we have The Hague convention being operated a parent, a case about their child is a matter not of and brokered via the courts on the basis that, even if calculated choice, but of the emotional imperatives that there is evidence that could give rise to possible criminal come with being a parent. proceedings, as part of the discharge of a case under It is important that people should have as much The Hague convention such evidence is not to be pursued. recourse to legal aid as possible, and the decisions As a legislator, I believe that that goes against the around legal aid should be duly sensitised to such grain and the spirit of much of what we have heard situations. Certainly, in a recent case that I know of, a from the Government in recent times about more responsive woman has found herself facing a case of child abduction, and alert reactions to evidence that arises in different and on being told to take a child who was born in family circumstances. Northern Ireland back to Australia she found herself in In this particular case, issues did arise around whether precisely the position whereby she was weakened, so I the child was exposed to risk. I do not want to go into know this can come on either side of such cases. I am any of the particulars of that, but the determination sure that the Minister would be sensitive in all such seemed to be that that was not a matter on which the situations, although we are talking in this case not courts would or could hear anything. Again, to my particularly about one side or another, but about the mind, that is inconsistent with the very clear standards balance of justice, which goes to the heart of the legal that we hear ringing right across all the political institutions aid questions. in recent times: in relation to the position of children, I want to return to the points that particularly concern every effort will be made to ensure that the best interests me, which arise from decisions made recently. I am not of the child are fully considered and addressed. concerned because the court made those decisions, but In relation to how such cases are addressed, it seems a question arises for legislators and for the Government to be very hard for anyone to find out whether anybody as the transposing signatory to The Hague convention has the role of advocating the best interests of the child. as to whether we are perhaps leaving courts in a position It is not clear that the court is in a position to hear or where they have to take decisions on fairly narrow take the evidence. Perhaps we need to apply some of the grounds in fairly shady light, sometimes having to disregard yardsticks developed under the Modern Slavery Bill, evidence that people try to bring forward in relation to which states that in some instances there will be a child either abuse against them that they allege took place at advocacy service whose responsibilities will be particularly 59WH The Hague Abduction Convention10 MARCH 2015 The Hague Abduction Convention 60WH

[Mark Durkan] were, and not by intervention. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) has to speak to and address everything on the basis of the also spoken. I was very happy to accommodate her and best interests of the child. Perhaps that should be her constituent when she raised an issue to do with applied here. Ukraine. Clearly that case has dragged on for a long I hope that the Minister and his Department, and his time and I hope that we have been able to at least colleagues in other Departments, because I know this suggest the best ways forward in a difficult situation. cuts across various Departments, will take the spirit of This issue is really important, as all colleagues know. what has been said on so many other fronts and make Child abduction can have a devastating effect on the sure that it also informs how we go forward with The child, let alone on the other parent, who is left feeling Hague convention, in terms of how we address it as that their rights have been violated. It can hugely damage legislators, how the Government address their role as a the relationship between the child and both parents, signatory and how they take forward their discussion actually—not just one parent—and the happiness of with other Governments in modernising The Hague the family, the extended family and the like. convention and the various memorandums of I would like to respond briefly to the general issue understanding that go with that, so that none of what that the hon. Member for Foyle raised and then, because we are saying in relation to child abuse and domestic there is a lot of information that I would like to be violence—violence against women or anything else—runs shared more widely about where people can go for out when it comes to the very important and vexed issue advice and help, I propose to write to him and put a of The Hague convention. copy of that letter in the Library for public record. I will copy that to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley as 4.57 pm well, because I do not think everybody understands what the opportunities are, even though those may not Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I be as extensive as people wish. congratulate the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) on obtaining this important debate. I thank him for The hon. Member for Foyle specifically raised the allowing me to make an extremely brief contribution to 1980 Hague convention on child abduction, which is the add to what he has said about the importance of looking key document. The purpose of the convention, although at the issues from the point of view of the child. Like it has been there for a long time, is to set up obligations him, I have a particularly difficult constituency case at between contracting states aimed at seeking the return the moment. I know that the Minister is aware of it. I of a child, wrongfully taken or wrongfully retained will not refer specifically to it, but I want to raise the away from the place where the parent believes they issues that concern me, which add to what the hon. should be, to their country of habitual residence. However, Gentleman has already outlined. it does not provide a legal court that can adjudicate, nor does it determine the parental rights. It provides a There are issues about the content and operation of mechanism of communication between one country the convention, which mean that the best interests of and another, if they are both participating countries in the child are clearly not always served. I understand the the convention. importance of the issues of jurisdiction and freezing the situation where it is, but, in the constituency case that I The hon. Gentleman raised a case in Northern Ireland have, it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be in that relates to Australia, and the hon. Lady’s case the interests of the child for the decision-making process relates to Ukraine. We have accepted the accession of to take so long. A very young child has not had contact the following countries and work the convention with with one of their parents for two years. The likelihood them: Argentina, Australia, the Bahamas, Belarus, Belize, of a relationship developing as one would want between Brazil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Canada, Chile, Colombia, a parent and the child—whether they live with them or Costa Rica, Ecuador, El Salvador, Fiji, Honduras, Hong simply have contact—is almost impossible. It is extremely Kong, Israel, Japan, Macau, Mauritius, Mexico, New heart-breaking and very difficult to deal with. Zealand, Panama, Peru, St Kitts and Nevis, South Africa, Turkmenistan, the USA, Ukraine, Uruguay, I am grateful to the Minister for the time that he has Uzbekistan, Venezuela and Zimbabwe. For those countries, given to me and my constituent on this issue, but I do there is an arrangement, but that means that all the think that, in the circumstances—the hon. Member for other countries do not have an arrangement. Therefore, Foyle is raising fundamental questions—this is a good for families whose child is taken somewhere else, we time for the Government to say, “Could we be doing cannot even avail ourselves of the system that we have more? Should we be raising this in international forums? at the moment. Should we be looking at how we can have the best interests of the child—as our legislation, the Children The 1980 convention provides a civil law mechanism Act 1989, puts it—clearly at the centre of what happens?” to allow one parent to seek the return of a child I look forward to what the Minister will perhaps commit wrongfully removed or retained. It is a summary procedure a future Government to doing. with the aim of getting the child back as soon as possible, so the court in the country of the child’s habitual residence can make its long-term decisions. 4.59 pm The hon. Gentleman rightly says that the test has to The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon be about the welfare of the child and what is in the Hughes): I am very happy to be serving under your child’s best interests. That is what our court applies in chairmanship, Sir David. I am grateful to the hon. England and Wales and what the courts in Northern Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for raising this really Ireland and Scotland similarly apply. The test is the best important issue. I am conscious that I can only deal interests of the child, always. The court that is seized with his constituency case by factual commentary, as it with the responsibility will have to make that decision. 61WH The Hague Abduction Convention10 MARCH 2015 The Hague Abduction Convention 62WH

Sometimes, as in the Ukraine case that the hon. Lady Ham (Lyn Brown) and the hon. Member for Hendon brought to me, in which that decision is going through (Dr Offord). The central authorities in the UK have the Ukraine courts, we have to watch—the parent has shown that, in the years 2009 to 2013, across the UK, to participate if they can—as they make their decision, the following number of parents have applied for the but we cannot exercise sovereignty over the courts of return of their child from another country under the Ukraine or Australia, because they have their own convention: in 2009, there were 236; in 2010, there were jurisdiction. 167; in 2011, there were 214; in 2012, there were 246; The decision on whether or not to return the child is and in 2013, there were 243. There were some in each made by the court, applying the convention, in the year from England and Wales, Northern Ireland and country in which the child has been taken or retained. Scotland, so there is a fairly consistent number of There are defined and limited grounds for non-return applications. under article 13 of the convention. Under article 13(b), The courts in this country have prompted a consideration if of whether we ought to do more. The previous Lord “there is a grave risk that his or her return would expose the child Chief Justice, I think—rather than the present one—has to physical or psychological harm or otherwise place the child in suggested that the matter ought to be looked at again, an intolerable situation” so it has been referred to the Law Commission. It the child does not have to be returned. That is the test reported recently, at the end of last year, and I refer under the convention for the foreign court dealing with both colleagues to its report, which was called the case. “Simplification of Criminal Law: Kidnapping and Related Offences”. It recommended that kidnapping and false The Hague conference, which is the body that oversees imprisonment, which are currently common-law offences, that, has no enforcement powers, so we cannot take any be made statutory offences, and that the kidnapping country to court if they are not complying. Every four offence should be simplified, with some of the current to six years, the Hague conference holds a special elements of the offence removed and the offence of commission that allows countries to feed back on the false imprisonment renamed “unlawful detention” but operation of the convention. There have been two otherwise remaining unchanged. It recommended that supplementary sets of decisions since then to try to the maximum penalty for child abduction be increased make the system more effective internationally. from seven years to 14 years and that the child abduction First, there was Council Regulation 2201/2003—the offence covering parents abducting children out of the EU Regulation Brussels IIA—which has provisions to UK be extended so that detaining children outside the enhance the operation of the convention among EU UK without consent would also be an offence. That is a member states. One such provision is that the court in very important issue, because at the moment it is an one member state of the European Union should not offence to take a child illegally; it is not an offence to refuse to return the child to another member state if take the child legally and then not bring them back. protective measures have been put in place to protect That issue has been raised by the hon. Member for the child in the member state of the child’s habitual Sheffield, Heeley and other colleagues. residence. There is an additional obligation that helps in the EU but does not apply in the two countries that Following the report’s publication, the co-chairs of colleagues have specifically raised. the all-party group on child abduction wrote to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in January to Subsequently, there has been a further development ask what action was planned, particularly on the new in terms of international agreement: the 1996 Hague offences. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, convention on jurisdiction, applicable law, recognition, Criminal Justice and Victims, who is a Minister in both enforcement and co-operation in respect of parental the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office, indicated responsibility and measures for the protection of children. that we would need to consider fully our response. The That was ratified by the UK in 2012 and it provides for Law Commission published its impact assessment in greater co-operation between the central authorities in February 2015. We, like any Government, have an obligation each contracting state, so that information on vulnerable to respond within six months. We will do that, but children can be exchanged and measures to protect the self-evidently we will not get the response delivered child considered at an early stage. before the general election. The issue will be on the desk As the hon. Gentleman will know, three different of whoever is in the Ministry. I hope that I will still be authorities in the UK act as the relevant post box and the person responsible. I would be very happy to be that implementation authority. There is one for England person, but that is a matter for a greater decision-making and Wales, one for Scotland and one for Northern body—namely, the great British public. Let me reassure Ireland, so he would address, as I am sure he has, his the hon. Member for Foyle, however, that the question engagement to the authority in Northern Ireland. The whether we need to do more in the criminal law is very hon. Lady addressed hers and that of her constituents much alive. There is a problem of course, because if, for to the authority in England and Wales. They act as the example, we added extradition to the ability to bring agency, and in my experience, having looked at the back someone who had taken a child away but was Ukraine case, they do so very efficiently, but it falls acting illegally and committing an offence, that still short of what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that we would not necessarily get the child back, so the answers might need to do, which is beef up the system and are not as easy as we might wish. decide whether we ought to have additional penalties or I will mention a couple of other things if I may. There actions. is a charity called reunite—the hon. Gentleman and the I have just some comments on how frequently this hon. Lady may have heard of it—which deals with a happens, and I have answered a couple of questions wide variety of queries on child abduction and operates recently on the matter from the hon. Member for West a 24-hour helpline, funded by the Ministry of Justice. 63WH The Hague Abduction Convention10 MARCH 2015 The Hague Abduction Convention 64WH

[Simon Hughes] system can just be left to work. We do not have an international enforcement system; we have an international That charity’s statistics for 2014 suggest that domestic communication system, but on the agenda are propositions abuse is not present in many of the cases that it is as to how we might make it stronger. I am open to all involved in; the majority of its cases have to do with the ideas and I hope that all those reading the record of this breakdown of a relationship and one parent wanting to debate, as well as those participating in it, will feel free return to their home country with the children. to send their ideas to us at the Ministry of Justice. The other thing I should say is that the Foreign and Question put and agreed to. Commonwealth Office regularly intervenes on these issues, is very willing to do so and, on an annual basis, takes up many cases with the authorities in other countries. 5.12 pm I assure the House that we do not think that the present Sitting adjourned. 3WS Written Statements10 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 4WS

The afternoon session started with a discussion on the Written Statements digital single market and EU industrial competitiveness. The Commission highlighted the importance of digital technologies within industry and set out five specific areas: spreading Tuesday 10 March 2015 high-tech and digital technologies into all industrial sectors, not just the most advanced ones; ensuring internet platforms are “not instruments of control but instruments of opportunity”; developing interoperable standards for digital products; ensuring the regulatory framework was fit for digitalisation; and BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS helping MS to address skills shortages so that there are more “digital executives”. MS were supportive of the areas identified by the Commission and there was broad support for the EU Competitiveness Council removal of barriers to e-commerce. I emphasised the importance of industry leading in the development of smart products and of the removal of barriers The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg to start up tech companies. I also highlighted the UK’s Clark): My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary digital industrial strategy, and our focus on technology clusters, catapult centres, and improving the skills base including of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, Minister the teaching of coding in all primary schools. for Intellectual Property, Baroness Neville-Rolfe, has today made the following statement. The Commission gave a summary of the responses to the Single Business Act consultation. Most respondents agreed The Competitiveness Council took place in Brussels on that the top priorities should be reducing administrative 2 and 3 March. I represented the UK during the internal burdens and increasing access to finance. The Commission market and industry discussion on day one, with Shan announced that a quarter of funding from the investment Morgan the Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU plan would be directed towards SMEs and that more information representing the UK for the research discussion on day two. would be presented at the next Competitiveness Council in I also attended a Council breakfast where Vice-President May. There were no interventions by MS. Ansip led a useful informal discussion on the digital single market. The day ended with the Commission giving an outline of The Council started by discussing and adopting the draft the energy union package which was published in February. conclusions on single market policy. The text included calling The package consists of the energy and climate work programme; on the Commission to adopt a sectoral approach to services, an “interconnections” communication on meeting the 10% with the focus being on professional and business services, electricity interconnection target; the Commission’s view of construction and retail. In the accompanying debate the key elements of agreement in Paris; and its proposal for the Commission highlighted the single market as the most important EU’s contributions. The aims of the package are energy pillar of its ¤300 billion investment package, pressed the security and efficiency. There were no interventions from need for single market rules to be adopted far more ambitiously MS. and highlighted the cost of starting up a business as one the The Latvian presidency opened the research day of the problems dampening investment and growth. Council with a discussion on the annual growth survey Several member states (MS) intervened to highlight the (AGS) and the Juncker package’s financial instrument (EFSI). importance of an ambitious and sectoral approach to services They highlighted the importance of investment in excellent liberalisation. MS also emphasised the importance of other research for growth as recognised in the latest AGS published sectors such as energy. I spoke about the importance of by the Commission, and the role of the Juncker package to better enforcement and called for decisive action in the single achieve this. They also emphasised the importance of national market strategy. This could include legislation where necessary, initiatives and road maps to deliver the European research but I reminded the Council that any new legislation should area. be drafted in accordance with better regulation principles. I The UK intervention, while welcoming the AGS’s emphasis highlighted the need for action on the regulation of professionals, on innovation, focused mainly on the investment package. the provision of indemnity insurance, and legal form and The UK and others called for the investment selection shareholding requirements in particular. committee to include expertise in the field of R and I We then discussed the EU investment package which was investment and that the emphasis of Competitiveness Council also debated in relation to research on the following day. The discussion should be on ways we can encourage project presidency noted that discussions were under way in the uptake of the fund. The UK, on the back of significant ECOFIN Council. Some MS intervened to say that the concerns raised by university stakeholders, also asked the EFSI (European fund for strategic investment) should address Commission to reassure academia that the “mainstreaming” four key points—flexible management, rapid implementation, of social sciences and humanities would continue to take “additionally” of projects and the need for significant equity place. component. In response to this, the Commission said the EIB (European Investment Bank) was going to increase its The second policy debate focused on unlocking Europe’s support for SMEs and stressed that the investment package digital potential and alongside this Science 2.0 (AOB). This would not just remove funds from the Horizon 2020 package. discussion mirrored one from the previous day on the digital single market but focused on the research aspects. The main The next item related to the Frontrunners initiative by discussion was around the need for research and innovation like-minded countries, including the UK, to share good to have access to data and that the necessary systems should practice in implementing the single market. I intervened to surround them, for example, data storage and management. support the project and highlight the work of the UK in the The Commission stressed how rapidly data is growing and projects on e-commerce and regulated professions. that to make the most of these opportunities, Europe needs We then discussed the implementation of transparency the skills and a shared vision of the opportunities and gaps reporting requirements in the accounting directive. A number in the landscape. Two points were raised by the UK: copyright of MS emphasised the importance of a level playing field in reform to address academic text and data mining and the extractives transparency reporting, and the important role need for data protection legislation to not hinder research, the Commission has to play in ensuring the US authorities ensure the necessary protections and permit us to reap the act quickly in bringing forward robust requirements. I intervened benefits of big data. This received broad support. A joint to highlight the importance of the EU continuing to show UK-Netherlands non-paper on open access was also circulated leadership in this area. and received a warm reception from several member states. 5WS Written Statements10 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 6WS

The presidency concluded the debate by recalling that there Explanatory notes on the Bill will be available in the would be Competitiveness Council (research) conclusions Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office and placed in on this topic in May. the Libraries of both Houses on that day. Copies of the Despite not being on the agenda, the Commission introduced explanatory notes will be available online at: http:// an AOB item on Partnership for Research and Innovation in www.gov.uk. the Mediterranean Area (PRIMA) initiative, to confirm the formal mechanism by which the initiative will be funded [HCWS361] (through article 185 TFEU as a public-public partnership) and to announce that a proposal will be bought forward (this may take some preparation). Under an AOB item on the BONUS programme (which covers research in the Baltic COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT sea), the Commission noted the positive evaluation of the programme and noted that BONUS members are looking at a possible BONUS2. There were no interventions by the UK Firefighters’ Pension Scheme Regulations on BONUS or PRIMA. The European research area (ERA) was only touched on briefly in the Council and over lunch, with the presidency outlining the process so far on the ERA The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for road map and referenced the need to address ERA governance issues (such as the number and structure of expert groups) Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): preparing the way for conclusions on this subject in May. The Independent Public Service Pensions Commission, [HCWS363] chaired by Lord Hutton, identified the need to reform public service pension schemes to provide a fairer deal for employees and taxpayers and to ensure that they are affordable and sustainable in the long term. The reforms to pension schemes are essential. People are living longer, TREASURY with the average 60-year-old living 10 years longer now than they did in the 1970s. As a result, the cost of public service pensions has increased in real terms by around a ECOFIN third over the last 10 years and is now £32 billion a year. Lord Hutton also found that the firefighters’ pension scheme 1992 is the most expensive public service pension The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): scheme. Currently, for every pound a firefighter pays A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council into the scheme, taxpayers are paying in an extra £5. In will be held in Brussels on 10 March 2015. Ministers are 2012-13, the scheme cost taxpayers £557 million. As due to discuss the following items: such, on 28 October 2014, the Firefighters’ Pension Investment plan for Europe Scheme (England) Regulations 2014 were laid, setting The objective of the Council will be to reach a out the main elements of the new career average pension general approach on the proposal on the European scheme to be introduced from 1 April 2015. fund for strategic investments (EFSI). The firefighters’ pension scheme 2015 will provide Current legislative proposals one of the very best pensions available, with guaranteed The presidency will inform delegations about the benefits that are inflation proofed. The coalition state of play of legislative proposals in the field of Government recognise that firefighters regularly undertake financial services. duties under tough conditions and that they deserve a good and generous pension. This is why, since the start Implementation of the banking union of the reform process, we have agreed to a number of The Commission will inform delegations about the enhancements, including improvements for those who state of play on the bank recovery and resolution directive choose to retire early. In the 2015 scheme, a firefighter (BRRD) implementation and the ratification of the retiring at 55 would see a 21.8% reduction to their intergovernmental agreement (IGA) on the single resolution pension—and no reduction to benefits earned in the fund (SRF). 1992 scheme if the firefighter was a member of that European semester: country reports scheme. This compares very favourably with the 40.5% The Commission will present the “country reports” reduction applied in the 2006 scheme which was introduced published on 26 February. by the previous Administration. In addition, the normal pension age of firefighters is 60, and has been since Implementation of the stability and growth pact 2006. It is lower than the pension age for other public The Commission has issued assessments of the sector workers, reflecting the physical nature of the performance of France, Italy, Belgium and Finland occupation. A normal pension age of 60 is being retained under the stability and growth pact (SGP), and Council for firefighters in the 2015 scheme. will discuss the Commission’s recommendation for next Last month consequential regulations were made and steps it may take for these countries. last week we laid regulations setting out strengthened [HCWS360] governance arrangements for the 1992, 2006, and 2015 firefighter pension schemes. Today, we are laying the final set of regulations required to ensure that the 2015 Finance Bill 2015 scheme can come fully into effect on 1 April, as required by the Public Service Pensions Act 2013. These include the Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England) (Transitional The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David and Consequential Provisions) Regulations 2015, which Gauke): The Finance Bill will be published on Tuesday describe how the benefits of firefighters who are moving 24 March. from the 1992 and 2006 pension schemes into the 2015 7WS Written Statements10 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 8WS scheme, will be protected. Benefits already accrued by comply by no later than 30 April 2015 with the provision scheme members under the existing schemes will be in the March 2011 code of recommended practice on preserved and continue to be linked to final salary. In local authority publicity that: addition, because of the strong protections already “Where local authorities do commission or publish newsletters, built into the 2015 scheme, no firefighter will have to news sheets or similar communications, they should not issue work beyond their current expected normal pension age them more frequently than quarterly”. until 2022. Accordingly, as required by the statute, the Secretary of We are also laying two further orders. The first of State is today issuing to each of the three councils a these updates the provisions relating to compensation written notice of the direction he proposes to issue to it. for injury so that they also apply to members of the In reaching these conclusions, the Secretary of 2015 scheme. This instrument also gives authorities an State has carefully considered the representations each additional six months to complete the exercise of enrolling of these councils has made in response to a notice given eligible firefighters into the modified scheme for retained to it on 25 September 2014 of a proposed direction staff who were unable to access a pension scheme relating to frequency of publication of council newsletters, between 2000 and 2006. The order also increases the newssheets or similar publications. He has also considered pay bands that determine contribution rates under the other information available to him about each of the 2006 scheme by 1% each year to 1 April 2018, in line three council’s publicity, and had regard to an equality with the 2015 scheme. This should avoid a scheme statement about enforcing the 2011 code of recommended member being drawn into a higher contribution band practice on local authority publicity. because of a pay rise designed to reflect inflation. The Each council now has 14 days to make written final instrument makes this latter change, but in respect representations to the Secretary of State about the of the 1992 scheme. proposed direction. Following this, the Secretary of The introduction of these regulations completes the State will take his final decision in each case about new regulatory framework for firefighters’ pensions, whether or not to issue the council with a direction. fulfilling our commitment to completing the reform Each decision will be taken on its own merits. process within the lifetime of this Government, and I will be placing copies of the associated documents ensuring that firefighters continue to receive one of the in the Library of the House. best pensions available in the public sector. [HCWS364] [HCWS365]

EDUCATION Local Authority Publicity

Ofsted: Contingency Fund Advance The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): On 29 January 2015, I explained to the House, Official The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): A budget Report, column 28WS, the coalition Government’s and cash transfer of £19,400,000 to Ofsted has been commitment to protecting an independent free local agreed with the Department and HM Treasury and has press. This reflects commitments made in the coalition been included in the 2014-15 supplementary estimate, agreement, and the legislative provisions made by for parliamentary approval. Parliament through the Local Audit and Accountability Parliamentary approval for additional resource of Act 2014. I described how the Government were seeking £16,900,000 and additional capital of £2,500,000 for to take action on the practice by a small number of this service will be sought in a supplementary estimate local authorities to publish local authority newspapers, for Ofsted. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure which given their frequency of publication, can push estimated at £19,400,000 will be met by repayable cash out and undermine that independent press. advances from the Contingencies Fund. A very small number of councils continue to breach As Ofsted is a non-ministerial department, I am the recommendations of the local government publicity making this statement on behalf of its accounting officer, code about the frequency of publication for council to ensure that Parliament is informed of this advance newspapers. In my written ministerial statement of 3 March from the Contingencies Fund in the normal way. Official Report 2015, , column 49WS, I outlined the [HCWS362] steps the Government are taking in relation to the continued weekly publication by the Royal Borough of Greenwich. Today, I am announcing the conclusions to date of TRANSPORT the review into the actions of three further councils; the London borough of Hackney council, the London Motorcycle Compulsory Basic Training Consultation borough of Newham council and the London borough of Waltham Forest council. Each of these has a fortnightly municipal newspaper. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport In each case, my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of (Mr Robert Goodwill): Research conducted in 2014 State for Communities and Local Government (Eric recommended a number of areas for the improvement Pickles) is minded to exercise his powers in the Local of compulsory basic training for learner motorcyclists. Government Act 1986, as amended by the Local Audit I am today announcing a public consultation on proposals and Accountability Act 2014, to direct the council to to strengthen the structure and delivery of the course. 9WS Written Statements10 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 10WS

The research was commissioned by the Department help ensure that learner riders are better prepared to to gain a more detailed understanding of who is taking ride safely on today’s public roads. compulsory basic training and why; to seek the views of The proposals set out in the consultation paper, which trainers and learner riders on the current course content have been developed in conjunction with motorcycle and how any changes to the content or structure would stakeholders including trainers, are primarily aimed at affect them. younger riders. However, we believe that there will be The Government recognise that motorcyclists and in benefits for all new riders as the changes proposed particular those who are young and or inexperienced would also improve the training received by riders aged are especially vulnerable and are disproportionately 24 and over. represented in the killed and seriously injured statistics. The proposals under consideration cover three broad In 2013, motorcyclists accounted for 22% of all road areas: user deaths despite representing only 1% of vehicle The structure and content of compulsory basic training traffic; 19% of all reported motorcycle casualties involved courses; young riders aged 19 and under. The qualification process for instructors; Compulsory basic training has remained largely Standards checks for instructors. unchanged since its introduction 25 years ago. This A copy of the consultation paper has been made consultation does not propose any changes to the syllabus available in the Libraries of both Houses and can be of the course. However, as a result of the increasing found on the Department’s website at: https://www.gov.uk/ numbers of new young riders who do not take a test and dft#consultations. who feature in the casualty statistics, it is now appropriate [HCWS359] to review the delivery of compulsory basic training, to 1P Petitions10 MARCH 2015 Petitions 2P

year period, starting in April 2015; further that local Petitions GP surgeries are already struggling and these cuts could lead to small practices closing and job losses; and Tuesday 10 March 2015 further that a local petition on this matter has been signed by 1,464 individuals. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of PRESENTED PETITION Commons urges the Government to reconsider the proposal Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor to make these cuts to health service budgets in the Radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital Hemsworth area. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Jon The Petition of residents of the constituency of Stevenage, Trickett, Official Report, 25 February 2015; Vol. 593, Declares that patients who are residents of Stevenage c. 432.] and the surrounding towns and villages have to travel [P001438] to Mount Vernon Hospital in Hillingdon to receive Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: radiotherapy treatment and that this journey is long These are matters for the local NHS. This Government and exacting and often has to be made on consecutive are committed to devolving decision-making about local days. NHS services to local clinicians and communities. GPs, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of clinicians, patients and local authorities are best placed Commons urges the Government to encourage NHS to determine the nature of their NHS services. England to provide a radiotherapy facility at Lister The Government and NHS England remain committed Hospital in Stevenage in order to make the journey for to increasing additional resources into general practice radiotherapy treatment much easier for patients who as shown by the proposed investment of £100 million live in Stevenage and the surrounding towns and villages. through the Prime Minister’s Challenge Fund and £1 billion And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Stephen in supporting infrastructure development over the next McPartland.] four years. Practices income varies year on year depending on the number of patients registered, with each practice [P001450] weighted by the average Global Sum payments as well as the level of enhanced services each practice chooses OBSERVATIONS to provide. Resources released from one practice are re-invested back into general practice provision in the same immediate Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) area. HEALTH In the move toward co-commissioning of Primary Changes to health service budgets Care Medical Services, it was agreed that Wakefield CCG would lead the Personal Medical Services (PMS) The Petition of residents of the Hemsworth constituency, Review process in the Wakefield area. The CCG, the Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about Local Medical Committee and other key stakeholders cuts to health service budgets in the local area, particularly are working together to ensure that any proposed the proposed £3.8 million cuts from budgets for GPs; contractual changes and funding is aligned to Wakefield further that these cuts will affect all Practices funded CCG’s strategic plan and local priorities including the through a Personal Medical Services (PMS) contract health inequalities agenda. PMS practices will not see and will see £3.8 million lost from this area over a three any changes to funding or contracts until October 2015.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 10 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 135 TREASURY—continued Fiscal Support for Businesses...... 147 Tax Credits...... 137 Infrastructure Investment...... 138 Tax Devolution ...... 145 Local Authority Borrowing (Home Building) ...... 144 Topical Questions ...... 151 Marriage Tax Allowances ...... 149 Uncollected Tax ...... 135 NHS Funding Pressures...... 140 Wine Duty ...... 142 North Sea Oil and Gas...... 149 Youth Employment...... 148 Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion Schemes ...... 143 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 10 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 3WS TRANSPORT ...... 8WS EU Competitiveness Council ...... 3WS Motorcycle Compulsory Basic Training Consultation ...... 8WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 6WS Firefighters’ Pension Scheme Regulations...... 6WS Local Authority Publicity ...... 7WS TREASURY ...... 5WS EDUCATION...... 8WS ECOFIN...... 5WS Ofsted: Contingency Fund Advance ...... 8WS Finance Bill 2015 ...... 5WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 10 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 1P PRESENTED PETITION Changes to health service budgets...... 1P Radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital ...... 1P Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 17 March 2015

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 10 March 2015

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 135] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Troubled Families Programme [Col. 157] Statement—(Mr Pickles)

Trade Union Reform (Civil Service) [Col. 166] Statement—(Mr Maude)

Mesothelioma (Amendment) [Col. 174] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mike Kane)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Deregulation Bill (Programme) (No.3) [Col. 177] Lords amendments considered

Counter-Terrorism (Statutory Instruments) [Col. 226] Motions—(James Brokenshire)—agreed to

European Commission: National Parliaments [Col. 231] Motion to take note of EC documents—(Mr Ellwood)—agreed to

Backbench Business School Funding Formula [Col. 251] Motion—(Mr Robin Walker)—lapsed

Public Health [Col. 265] Motion—(Harriett Baldwin); Division deferred till Wednesday 11 March

Petitions [Col. 266]

Trading Relationships with Europe [Col. 269] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Digital Democracy [Col. 1WH] First Aid Techniques: National Curriculum [Col. 25WH] Lake Lothing: Crossings [Col. 49WH] The Hague Abduction Convention [Col. 56WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 3WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]