Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 5 OCTOBER 1943

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

666 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

the railway from Dajarra to Camooweal, I may state that the Queensland Govern­ ment was prepared to join with the Com­ mon wealth Government in building such a line. In 1938 the Queensland Government notified the Right Hon. the Prime Minister that Queensland was prepared to favour­ ably consider the building of a line from Dajarra to Camooweal if the Federal Government would agree to build a line from Camooweal to a point on the Birdum­ Darwin Line. However, the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth advised the Premier of Queensland that funds were not avail­ able for the construction of such a line at the time.''

SUPPLIES OF FIREWOOD. :ilir. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg), for IUr. I". J. BAI{,NES (Cairns), asked the Premier- '' In view of the recent announcement in the 'Courier-Mail' made by the Secre­ tary for Mines in reference to the saving of gas, will he request the proper authori­ ties to supply the firewood so urgently needed by the people of Queensland~''

The PREMIER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) replied- '' The State Government is fully seized TUESDAY, 5 OCTOBER, 1943; with the firewood position in Queensland and, in conjunction with the Department of \Var Organisation of Industry, every Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. E. J. Hanson, effort is being made to alleviate the short­ Bura.nda) took the chair at 11 a.m. age by the obtaining of labour, petrol, tyres, &c., for the firewood trade.'' MATRIMONIAL CAUSES ACTS AMEND­ MENT BILL. EASING OF AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS. JUr. EUWARDS (Nanango), for liir. RESERVATION FOR ROYAL ASSENT. WALKER (Cooroora), asked the Secretary IUr. SPEAKER reported receipt of a for Health ancl Home Affairs- ~e~sag~ from His Excellency the Governor mhmatmg that this Bill had been reserved '' Will he give consideration to the for the signification of His Majesty's easing, in the whole or part of this State, pleasure. of air-raid precautions, such as protective treatment of glass windows, as has been QUESTIONS. done in New South Wales~'' YARRAMAN-NAKANGO RAILWAY LINE:. :ilir. EDWARDS (Nanango) asked the The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Minister for Transport- HO ::tiE A:FF AIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Ithaca) replied- '' Referring to his answer to my question on 28 September relative to parliamentary '' As the State Government is guided by approval in October, 1918, of the construc­ the advice of the Commonwealth Govern­ tion of the r:1il link between Yarranl'an and ment in such matters, I have raised this Nrmango, will he give favourable considera­ question with the Hon. the Minister for tion to the construction of this railway as Home Security, who has advised me-(a) soon as practicable in view of the increased That the Commonwealth Defence Commit­ population and production and the l

SHORTAGE OF RURAL LABOUR. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Mr. J. F. BAltNES (Bundaberg), for Mr. The PREltiiER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, L. J. BARNES (Cairns), asked the 11.12 a.m.) : I move- Premier- '' That £32,486 be granted for 'Legis- '' In view of the alarming statement in lative Assembly.' '' the 'Courier-Mail' this morning in refer­ ence to there being over 100,000 less people There is an increase in this vote of £987. in the rural industries in compm·ison with Of that amount salaries account for £335 and 1939, will he approach the Minister for the contingencies £652. In the salaries vote the Army and ask him to release 15,000 men basic-wage and award increases are provided immediately for Queensland to alleviate for. In the vote for contingencies an the serious shortage of foodstuffs~'' increase is provided for '' Hansard'' of £500. 'L'he PRElUIER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, That was brought about by the continuance Bremer) replied- of the 1942 session into January-April, 1943.

" I refer the hon. member to answers Mx. NICKLIN (Murrumba) (11.13 a.m.): given to previous questions in this House I want to express to the Premier my personal relative to this subject, particularly my appreciation and the appreciation of the Teply to the hon. member for Bowen on Opposition also for having had more frequent September 14, 1943.'' meetings of Parliament since his elevation to his high office. His action was appreciated PAPER. not only by the Opposition, but the people of the State. It has led to a greater appre­ The following paper was laid on the table, ciation of Parliament by the people and has and ordereu to be pTinted :- eliminated to a certain extent the rush legis­ lation that, unfortunately, used to be a feature Report of the Queensland Meat Industry of our annual sessions. Unfortunately, when Board for the year 1942-43. it sat only once a year Parliament was begin­ ning to get into disrepute with the people. SUCCESSION ACTS AND ANOTHER. ACT I know hon. members have had it said to AMENDMENT BILL. therrr during the old long recess period, "What a fine holiday you must be having! " THIRD READING. The people making those remarks little realise the work performed by a member of Bill, on motion of Mr. Gledson, read a third this Assembly, for, if done properly, it occu­ time. pies his full time and attention, whether the SUPPLY. House is in session or not. The practice introduced by the Premier of having more RESUMPTION OF COMMIT'rEE--ESTIMATES­ than one session a year is certainly a big FIRST AND SECOND ALLOTTED DAYS. advantage. I hope now that he has intro­ duced it he will eliminate as much as possible (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Brassing­ any tendency to rush. I must admit that, in ton, Fortitude Valley, in the chair.) the main, the Premier since his election to his high office has given hon. mem'bers every ESTIMATES Il\ CHIEF, 1943-1944. opportunity to consider legislation. Never­ EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE. theless, there is a tendency very often t~ bring in important Bills towards the end of HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR (BALANCE a session, that could very easily have been OF VOTE). introduced earlier, so that hon. mem'bers would have a longer time to examine them. Tlte PREMIER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, To get the full benefit of Parliament there Bremer) (11.10 a.m.): I move- should not be any rush legislation; it should " That £3,676 be granted for 'Executive be considered calmly and deliberately, and and Legislative-His Excellency the then there would be less need for amending Governor (Balance of Vote).' '' Acts of Parliament than we have had in the past. Too frequently we have had measures These items show an increase of £86 in introduced one session and amended next salaries because of basic-wage and awaTd session because full opportunity had not been increases. given for hon. members to examine it on the Items agreed to. first occasion. There is another matter that vitally con­ EXECUTIVE COUNCIL. cerns this Assem'bly and that I hope will receive full consideration on this vote. In The PREiUIER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, view of our experience of the exercise of Bremcr) (11.11 a.m.): I move- war-time powers by a centralised Gov~rn­ '' That £90 be granted for 'Executive ment, much greater attention should be g1ven Council.' '' to any proposal to transfer powers fr?m The amount required this yeaT is exactly this Parliament to the Commonwealth Parha­ the same as t.hat voted last year. ment, as any such proposal must have the effect of destroying the Federal system of Vote agreed to. government. ()68 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The Premier: The Government enabled The CHAIRJ.UAN: Order! The hon. hon. members to debate that subject specially gentleman is continuing to disobey my ruling. last session. I ask him to observe it.

Mr. NICKLIN: I know that we had a ltlr. NICKLIN: I shall not continue any special debate last session on a proposal to further, except to reiterate that this Parlia­ give powers to the Commonwealth for a ment has a function to perform in this com­ limited period. munity, and the dangers to which I referred should be obvious to all. I hope members The CHAIRMAN: Order! The subject of this Assembly, both privately and publicly, now raised by the hon. gentleman is alto­ will give a lead to the public that will ensme gether outside the scope of this vote. On a the defeat of any attempt to destroy the previous occasion, to enable hon. m·embers to sovereign rights of this State and place us raise the point, I allowed discussion on in a condition of dependence on hand-ont'J matters that were altogether outside the from any centralised Government in Aus­ scope of the question· before the Committee, tralia. but on this occasion I should like hon. mem­ J\Ir. lUAHER (West Moreton) (11.22 b_ers to ~eep wit~in the well-recognised prin­ a.m.): The Lord Mayor, Mr. Chandler, raised Ciples la1d down m our Standing Orders. a matter of some moment in the Hamilton bv-election contest when he made reference l\Ir. NICKLIN: I do not wish to con­ to what he termed the weakness of the Opposi­ travene or dis~gree with your ruling in any tion. I think the Lord Mayor could more way, Mr. Brassmgton, but I do submit that in fairly have drawn attention to the ·weakness considering this important vote members can of the uersonnel of Parliament itself. If his exercise the right of discussino- the powers 0 eriticislit is true of the Opposition it is equally of this Parliament. true of the Government side of the House. The CHAIRMAN: Order! This vote The Secretary for Public Lands: Mr. deals purely with the administration and the Chandler did not say that. powers of the Legislative Assembly. JUr. MAHER: That does not detract l\Ir. NICKLI~: If you rule that way, I from the truthfulness of the comment I make. shall h~v~ to a bide by your ruling. I was of I do not think anybody would disagree with the opmwn that on a vote of this nature vny discriminating observer outside the House we could discuss the powers of this Parlia­ who holds the opinion that the representation ment; as you have ruled otherwise we shall in Parliament itself could be greatly not be able to do so. I should like to point strengthened to the great advantage of Par­ out that the State Parliament carries out a liament. One of the weaknesses of our particularly important function in this com­ rlemocracy lies in the fact that the system by munity, and we as State parliamentarians which men are chosen for election to Parlia­ s?ould be jealous of the powers of our Par­ ment has not given the best results. If Par­ hm.nent and see th~t they are not in any way liament is to retain its power, prestige, and whittled away or given away to the detriment strength, it can only do so and derive them of this State. • from the quality of the men who come into Parliament. The Secretary for Public Lands: I hope you are not suggesting we are not jealous of Mr. Riordan: Who would you suggest our powers. should select them~ lUr. J.UAHER: That rests with the people ltir. NICKLIN: I do not know whether in the final analysis. the hon. gentleman is as jealous of the rights of this Parliament as he endeavours to make J\Ir. Riordan: Who but the people select out by that interjection. After all he was now~ willing to give away a limited amount' of State powers, and I do not know whether he would l.Ur. l\IAHER: Under the system that is be willing to give away all State powers if Employed big political organisations very he was asked to _do so. However, he will largely influence the selection of candidates. have an opportumty to express himself on In some instances selection is by plebiscite; ~hat quest_ion before long, judging by what in otheJ'S by direct selection. Judging by Is happenmg in the Commonwealth Parlia­ results, I think the competent critic outside ment. The State Parliament is the watch­ is on sound ground in drawing attention to dog of the people of this State and it is the great weakness of Parliament. Parliament only right that it should exercise' its powers is not attracting the best men in the corn­ to ~he full and see that those powers are not munity. w):nttled away to the detriment of Queensland. A Government Member: Rubbish! In recent months we have had examples of how this State can be badly treated as a l\Ir. MAHER: There is no rubbish about result of centralised and bureaucratic control it at all. Let us have a look over this Assem­ by the Central Government. It is this Parlia­ bly. How many men in it correspond to ment's prerogative and right to see that strong paTliamentary types~ How many Slueensl:mrl ano Queenslanders do not suffer members are constructive thinkers, good m any way as !1 result of those extraordinary planners, and lucid speakers~ I grant there war powers giVen to the Central Govern­ are forceful men, but they are in the minority. ment. The majority in the House are men of Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 6611

mediocre capabilities. That conclusion is Premier or Minister is not enough to attract inescapable. In this .state to-d.ay ~h.e~e .are them. thousands of outstandmg men w1th lll1hat1ve, Mr. Devries: What about offering ser­ ability, and drive in charge of big business vice? organisations, but Parliament is not attract­ ing that type of man who can plan and lay JUr. MAHER: I think that unfortunately down policies that would be helpful to the the day of service, like the age of chivalry, people.- It is a serious weakness. I am not is past. There was a time in the history blamin"' the individual member who happens of the State when men were willing to enter to be "here; it is not his fault. There is Parliament and give their service to the no dearth of men willing to offer themselves public for the honour of the positions they for p8rliamentary representation, but it is held. That day has gone. The work of ~a~­ the quality of the men who offer that counts, liament is far more complex, far more d1fii· and all I am concerned with this morning is cult. Problems have increased, and there­ how we can overcome this evident weakness. fore to-day, in m'y observation and experience What steps can be taken to attract to Pm·lia­ of things, an hon. member of this Parliament ment the best types of men in the community, who studies the problems of the State and it does not matter to which side of the House~ of the Commonwealth-and after all Com­ I think the Labour Party gives greater atten­ monwealth and State problems are allied­ tion to this important matter than the Opposi­ who looks over the world trend as well and tion. For example, the Labour Party offers moves about actively in his electorate has representation to capable men of the type of a man-sized job, he has no spare time; and Dr. Evatt. Much as I disagree with Dr. Evatt therefore I feel that if he discharges his politically, I am bound to say that he is a duty to his electorate and to Parliament he great public figure, and the Labour Party is entitled to a greater recognition of his seeks out men of that type. Possibly oppos­ services than is given in Parliament to-day. ing party groups in some parts of Australia do In other words, I feel that in a large State the same. There is room in both political like Queensland a salary of £650 a year is organisations to-dav for a reorientation of not enough for the hon. member who carries ideas, for a chm;ge of outlook in that out his parliamentary duties efficiently. respect, and when vacancies occur special efforts should be made to ath·act the ablest The CHAIRMAN: Order! So that this men who can be. got to represent the seats debate will not get out of hand altogether involved. I quote the following from' page 538 of The question is whether the rewards that May's Parliamentary Practice:- Parliament offers are the cause of failure of '' The administrative action of a depart­ able men to offer themselves for selection in ment is open to debate, but the necessity the different party organisations. If a larger for legislation and involving legislation salary was offered, would that ;have the effect cannot be discussed in committee of sup­ of inducing men to leave other positions to ply." enter Parliament, with all the risk of being eventually defeated? Are capable and out­ lUr. !IAHER: Without attempting to standing men in the community willi11g to question your ruling in any way, I think that give up more or less permanent positions in past years we have discussed such matters where they mi.ght have an opportunity to earn under this vote. £SOO to perhaps £1500 a year to enter Parlia­ ment with the risk of a tenure of only three The CHAIRMAN: Where legislation is years, and then being thrown on the scrap­ necessary discussion has not been allowed, lJeap, when they would have to build afresh~ and legislation is necessary if parliamentary If PaTliament increased the amount allowed salaries are to be increased. to each member would men of greater capacity on both political sides be attracted to Par­ Mr. lliAHER: I have put my finger on liamenH We give the Premier £1450 a year, what I think might be one of the main and a Minister in the vicinity, I suppose, of reasons why Parliament does not attract £1300 a year. really outstanding men in the community. That, of course, is an elementary weakness The Secretary for Health and Home in our democracy, one to which I think all Affairs: £1,150. political leaders should give some attention with the object of rectifying it. If the lUr. MAHER: Would anybody say these Lord Mayor's criticism of the weakness of salaries are :;ufficient incentive to men to the OppositiOn has the effect of r,ausing both come into this Parliament, to enter into the the Labour Party and Country-National hurly-burly of politics, take all the knocks, Organisation to give greater attention to the stand on the platform and endure publi.c selection of capable men we might get some­ abuse, serve an apprenticeship of 10, 15, where by what Mr. Chandler has said in his and sometimes 20 years before attain­ campaign. ing to executive rank~ They are paltry allow­ ances, and will not attract the best men, and I feel that a tendency is developing, if there is certainly no attraction to the rank­ the end is not already achieved, whereby and-file member at £650 a year. powerful political organisations may wish to secure their positions in Parliament and so If there are outstanding men who think nominate for safe seats four or five dis­ they could rise rapidly to responsible rank tinguished and outstanding men and then in government, the salary offered for a select men of mediocre capabilities for th@ 670 Supply [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. other seats, so that if by any swing of the supplies the requirements of a State or Com­ political pendulum that party is returned to monwealth. When we come to consider the power the majority of the members will be various types of Government and the types pliable and under the control and dominance of members in Governments in the history of the few really outstanding men and what­ of the State and the Commonwealth, it has ever policies such an organisation had in its to be admitted that the most successful have mind could be more easily put into effect. been constituted by men who, in the main, The ideal men for Parliament as I see it are have not had great business experience. I men who are fearless, independent in outlook, think the greatest condemnation of the busi­ and courageous enough to stand up in Par­ ness man's Government occurred when, at a liament in the public interest as they see it. critical period, the Menzies-Fadden Federal Government failed to govem and had to leave The Secretary for Public Lands: They the Federal Treasury benches. 'rhe majority should give a lead in public thought. of the members of that Government had been Mr. MAHER: They should give a lead in successful business men, yet when the crisis public thought, but what we want to avoid came they could not carry on, for some reason is any system that will produce party hacks. best known to themsel>"es, and the reins of The Labour Party, of course, can look itself government had to be handed over to men over in that respect, beca'use I think that who, in the main, had not had years of experi­ the machine system of the Labour Party is ence in business. one of the evils of the day. If the forces opposed to the Government in this State cannot find suitable men to repre­ The Secretary for Public Lands: We sent them in Parliament probably their system read in the paper to-day that the deputy oi' selection is at fault. On the other hand, leadership of your party was up for sale. uespite what might be said about the political Mr. MAHER: I did not see that. It cer­ machinery of the Australian Labour Party, tainly is not up for sale. the fact remains that it gives to men and women in all walks of life an opportunity to The Secretary for Public Lands: There take part in the political affairs of Labour. would not be any machine politics in that~ Despite the criticism and the a'rguments that have been levelled against the selections that Mr• .MAHER: It is certainly not up for have been made by means of that machinery sale. The Labour Party has its faults in that under the control of the Australian Labour respect, because we see evidence of it in the Party, the fact remains that it has had a great case of two hon. members who sit on the measure of success and has given the country back Government benches, Messrs. Marriott much very useful legislation. \Ve read in and Taylor. Because they had a certain the Press that Sir Fergus McMaster has amount of independence of outlook they have referred to Lord Mayor Chandler as a success­ been outlawed by the Queensland Central ful radio merchant, but I doubt if Mr. Executive of the Labour Party, yet, I sup­ Chandler, as Lord Mayor of this city, has made pose, there is very little variation between a success of the administration of council their point of view and the point of view of affairs. other members of the Government party. I think it is casting unfair aspersions on The CHAIRlUAN: Order! hon. members in this Chamber for the hon. member for West Moreton to make the speech Mr• .MAHER: I am merely pointing out, that he did. If hon. members opposite are Mr. Brassington, that democracy cannot work not satisfied with the type of member that is successfully unless great political organisa­ in their ranks, it is their job to see that a tions are willing to put the best types of better class of man, from their point of view, men into Parliament, to give them a certain is obtained. As far as I am concerned, we, neasure of independence, and allow them to as a Government, are satisfied with the class use their judgment more fully in dealing of man we have in our party and the 1vith great political problems than in the machinery that elects them. past. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I have listened llir. MOORE (Merthyr) (11.39 a.m.) : The very attentively to the debate, but I fail to remarks by the hon. member for \Vest More­ see how the procedure of electing candidates ton reminded me of a short passage that I by party organisations have any bearing on read in the "Women's Weekly," that, this vote. I therefore ask hon. members to despite the shortage of women-power, the confine their remarks to the question before spring-cleaning should take place. It the Committee. appears to me that the hon. member has made his official contribution to the spring­ ~'fr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.43 cleaning that will be inevitable in the forces a.m.): I look upon this Parliament, and every opposed to Labour. other Parliament for that matter, as the I do not quite agree with the hon. mem­ highest tribunal in the land and an honoured ber's view as to a suitable member of Par­ place. When we enter this Assembly we liament. The forces opposed to I .. abour still should have at least high ideals and set an give it out that the only successful public example to the people outside. man is the one who has been successful in I compliment the Premier on introducing business. They fail to realise that successful more frequent sittings of the House. The manipulation of profits cannot be the measure Opposition suggested that some years ago and of success in operating the machinery that I spoke in favour of it fully three years ago, Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 671 but the ex-Premier did not meet us on that the matter up, this is a three-storey building, point. The present Premier has done so. It and by virtue of its height it is equal to a is a step in the right direction. four- or five-storey building. And that is not I know it is difficult in this debate to keep all. Twice a day one messenger has to go to within bounds, and some hon. members have the top of the building and put the flag up crossed the barbed-wire fence a little, as it and take it down. Anybody who knows any­ were, but if it is permissible I want to say thing about medicine knows that climbing that State Parliaments are well worth while. steps is detrimental to one's system. I If the man in the street does not think so at particularly refer to the third floor staff. times, he is not thinking of the good of the Last week when I was in the Assembly, the State. I belieye-but not because I am here Premier picked out four Nationalist members -that it is not advisable to allow Sydney and and told them they were good fellows, more Melboume interests to run the whole of or less, and then he classed the rest of us as Australia. noxious weeds. Well, Mr. Brassington, let me tell the Premier that if he is going to class The CIUIR~IAN: Order! us as noxious weeds, I take myself to be the Mr. YEATES: It does not necessarily Gympic-Gympie, which is the most stinging follow that the moneyed man is a good nettle to be found, for such has been my legislator. The successful business man is, capacity to sting-I have stung the Govern­ but there are other people who also are good ment to the core-that the Premier had to legislators. In choosing our legislators we stoop to such low tactics as to make such a must consider the humanitarian side as well statement. It has compliment·ed me very as the business side. I like the idea of having much. As the Premier has classed me as a a good business man or two among us, but not weed, I will take the name of the Gympie­ necessarily the millionaire, as he may be apt Gympie, known as the most stinging nettle in to be greedy and not think of the man who Australia. Such has been my capacity in this is pOOT. Parliament. Electricity is cheap enough now, but it will Much has been said about independence in be cheaper after the war. I am not asking the Parliament, and what qualifications hon. mem­ Premier or Mr. Speaker to expend money at bers have and what they do. It will be the present time on improvements of the Par­ remembered that a couple of years ago the liamentary buildings, but I should like a note Government were trying to put through a made now, on the follow-up system, for a Bill, and only for my original direction on suggestion I wish to make. I often wonder it the Bill would have gone through the House why an electric lift has not been installed in without amendment, and as a result people this House. I am young enough to jump up would have been kept in idleness and want. the stainvays, but I know that some members That is one thing I can claim as an Indepen­ of Parliament who have suffered with their dent. Before I got into this House I sup­ hearts and other ailments find this is too much ported an extension of the liquor programme. of a stmin on them. I am thinking at the moment of the former hon. member for Wind­ The CHAIRlUAN: Order! sor, am1 other highly respected members, not to speak of the staff. When the division bell lUr. J, F. BARNES: A Bill was to go rings and an hon. member is downstairs in through the House to give the police power the party room writing or attending to his to search any home at any time. constituents, he makes a sudden dash to the Chamber. He covers 100 yards in 9t The CHAIR~IAN: Order! seconds-you, Mr. Brassington, remember ~Ir. J. 1<'. BARNES: Now, Mr. Brassing­ those races at Augathella! (Laughter.) ton, this is not out of order; this is some­ It is unquestionably bad for the system. thing that is very important. I do not think I am speaking seriously, because I have talked we can find a name for it, but I will tell you to medical men about it. I hope Mr. what the thing is. In this Chamber I was Speaker has made a note of it and that it branded by an hon. member as having been will come up about June, 1945, when the war had up and fined £5 for assaulting a male is about finished. child on 5 February, 1941. Those are the words of the hon. member for Baroona, and The Secretary for Health and Home they can be found in '' Hansard.'' When Affairs: I will get the Director-General that statement was made by him the hon. of Health and Medical Services to come over member for Gympie was presiding as and take your blood pressure afterwards. Temporary Chairman. I raised a point of Mr. YEATES: Good. This is something order and demanded a withdrawal and the the man in the street will think is not neces­ hon. member for Gympie ignored me on three sary-£145 for gas. occasions. When the Chairman, the hon. mem­ ber for South Brisbane, came back to the Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (11.49 chair, I rose to a point of order again and he a.m.): I congratulate the hon. member for told me that I had exhausted my time. I East Toowoomba on bringing up the matter said, "I am not rising with a view to con­ of a lift. Hon. members will remember that tinuing my speech; I am rising to a point I mentioned it nearly three years ago, of order.'' I was completely ignored. I for the convenience not only of members demanded a withdrawal by the hon. member­ but of the staff, also. We have a big staff the stinking member I should have said-for here, and as I explained when I first brought Baroona. 672 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! mover and seconder had spoken and a third hon. member had spoken for about 10 Mr. J. F. BARNES: He would not do minutes the debate was elosed-I refer to that and I asked the Attorney-General to the motion moved by the hon. member for table the papers. The Attorney-General did Gym pie on Private Members' Day-because not do it. an amendm·ent was to be moved by the hon. member for Bundaberg. That amendment ThH CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. would have put the Labour Party ·on its member to withdraw that expression, which is uppers because it was in full agreement with decidedly unparliamentary. the platform of the Australian Labour Party. Mr. J. I<'. BARNES: I withdraw the That amendment was blocked. words "stinking member." The Attorney­ Order! General was asked to lay the papers on the The CHAIRMAN: table and the Attorney-General laid papers on Mr. J. F. BARNES: In my amendment I the table to the effect that I was had up and proposed that the Commonwealth Bank fined for assaulting a person who was a finance hospitals with national credit. married man with three children on the above­ mentioned date. It was a Bundaberg paper The CHAIRMAN: Order! report and had no relation to the charge of being had up and fined £5 for assaulting a Mr. J. F. BARNES: It was not dealt with male child, suggesting sodomy. further. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. The CHAIRMAN: Order! member is discussing a matter that has been Mr. J. F. BARNES: The other private closed and decided a considerable time ago. member's business on that sheet was a motion to be moved by myself- Mr. J. F. BARNES: It has never been dealt with in procedure. '' That any member of this Assembly shall be compelled to submit a balance­ The CHAIRMAN: It is not permissible sheet of his complete financial affairs when to raise it here now. called on by two or more members to do so.'' Mr. J. F. BARNES: It has never been dealt with. The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. member will read and understand the Stand­ The CHAIRMAN: It can be dealt with on ing Orders he will find that a motion already a substantive motion, but not on the ques­ placed on, the business-sheet rr.ay not be tion before the Committee. debated on another question. Mr. J. F. BARNES: It is in accordance Mr. J. }'. BARNES: It is not comp·etent with the procedure of the House. to discuss the motion on the business-sheet as it is, therefore it can be taken that the The CHAIRMAN: Order! subject-matter of the motion can be debated TIO\V. lir. J. F. BARNES: Wnat does it pro­ vide for if it does not provide for that~ That The CHAIRMAN: Order! It cannot be is typical of the things done by Government discussed on this vote. members. Mr. J. F. BARNES: I understand that if The CHAIRM..!N: Order! the motion was to come before the House the subject could not be discussed now, because ~I:r. J. F. BARNES: This Parliament is the action of the Premier ruled out that dis­ supposed to give a member free speech. cussion of it. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. The CHAIRMAN: Order! member is not allowed to reflect upon the personal conduct of hon. members. Mr. J. F. BARNES: Mueh has been said about the ability of members of Parliament. Mr. J. F. BARNES: When I first entered I suggest, as i have suggested previously, this Parliament I urged that Parliament that if the speeches made in this House were should sit longer than three months in a broadcast a much better Parliament would year. Because of my advocacy, the next year be the result, inasmuch as people would not the session lasted four months. Of course, be game to enter Parliament when they knew this year thete were three sessions, one being their speeches would be always broadcasted. called specially to deal with the Commonwealth Powers Bill and the other because the Oppo­ Mr. Healy: You would have no listeners. sition argued that the House should sit longer. There have been three sessions this Mr. J. F. BARNES: I do not know about year, although actually one could say there when the hon. member speaks, but ,,-hen I have been only two-one, as I have stated, speak the front benches, the back benches, being a special session to deal with the Com­ and the gallery are full. It is immaterial to monwealth Powers Bill. However, the fact me what happens when the hon. member remains that the advocacy has borne fruit. speaks, but you can believe me, Mr. Brassing­ But is the time of the session sufficiently ton, that if the speeches in Parliament ~ere long~ Recently a motion was brought before broadcast this House would be 10 times the House and duly seconded. After the better than it is now because the public Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 673 would hear what hon. members had to say. be abolished, so that hon. members might hear They would hear of the things that are decent speeches in this Cham:ber. Quite taking place in this House, such as what recently the hon. member for Cairns was happened the other day in my absence when speakin~ in this Parliament and Mr. S9eaker the hon. member for Baroona-- ruleJ h1m out of order. The hon. member for Wide Bay interjected and said, "Never­ 'l'he CHAIR~IAN: Order! theless, the speech was very interesting,'' or words to that effect. Mr. Speaker agreed ll~r_. J .. F. BARNES: You are evidently antlc1patmg what I. am going to say, Mr. that it was interesting, but the Standing Brassmgton, so I w1ll skip that. There is Orders prevented the House from hearing an another matter that cannot be out of order. interesting address. Whilst we liYe under The Premier was complimented by the these Standing Orders, which do not give Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the hon. us time to discuss legislation, we shall get member for West Moreton-and I agree with nowhere. They say definitely, for e:xampie, the hon. member-that he has found the that the E•stimates shall go through in j 7 Premier much better than the form'er Pre­ days. That is ridiculous. It is a pb.v:dcal mier. That is definitely correct, but unfor­ impossibility to study each Estimate and put tunately the present Premier has taken his up a case either for or against it and deal cue from the former Premier who was about with them all in that way within 17 days. to send n;e out ~or a. month without pay. The Secretary for Public Lands: Do you The Prem1er, takmg h1s cue from his pre­ thirtk they should abolish the tmffic lights decessor, sent me out for a fortnight on two in (~ue<>u street~ occasions without pay and consequently he Mr•• T. F. BARNES: No, I do not; they has t.he :mique record of being the first are doing a good job. But they are new, and Prenner m the world to send a member out the Standing Orders are old. What I am without pay, and he sent me out a second asking Parliament to do now is abolish time, breaking his own record. I speak of something old and put in something new. people as I find them. The CHAIRlliAN: Order! Another thing that I have advocated here ever since I came to this Assembly is that Mr. J. F. BARNES: In other respects-­ all Bills should be advertised in the Press The CHAIRMAN: Order! It is not com- after passing their first reading. As an petent for the hon. member to discuss a illustration, let us say that we are dealing decision of the House. with a Bill on electricity. What do hon. members on either side know about elec­ lir. J. F. BARNES: Well the Standing tricity~ Is there one man in this Assembly Orders are something I can' speak on-we who knows anything about iU I venture the have to abide by. them, but I would point opinion that there is not one. There may be out that the Standmg Orders originated from ·one, but that does not matter. We people, the international financial Jews. (Laughter.) we Goyim cattle, as the international finan­ If hon. members would read the Protocol No. cial Jews call us, have to put a Bill through 12 they ~ould find how they arranged that Parliament concerning something that we the Standmg Orders should be arranged and know nothing about. And that is supposed as they have been arranged in this House over to be legislation! If it were done correctly, ~ number of years. As you know, this morn­ in the way suggested by the hon. member for mg, when I had been speaking according to Bundaberg, it would be advertised in the the Standing Orders you have ruled I have Press and then the electricians in my elec­ been continually o~t of order. In other torate would come along and say to me, :word~, the ~tanding Orders are so arranged ''Listen, Frank, two and two are four, and m th1s Parhament that they ·can stifle debate. one makes it five,'' as the case may be, and For instance, if one wishes to talk about the they would educate me on electricity. The liquor question, one can talk about only one same could be done in other electorates. This portion on that Minister's Department, and should b"l done with every Bill that is put then one has to wait until the Attorney­ through Parliament. Hon. members are General's Department is being discussed Entitled to know what the effect of each Hill before dealing with another part. The whole will be in his electorate. Take a medical thing is divided. Hon. members have seen Bill. What do we know about medicine, a demonst;-ation here this morning of when all is said and done~ The international sp~akers bemg out o.f order continually. I financial Jew has so framed the Standing am a n8\~comer to th1s Assembly-this is my Orders, has so controlled Governments during first Parhament-but this morning we heard the past-- hon. members who have been here for 20 to 30 years ~eing ruled out of order, because The Secretary for Health and Home the Stand.mg Orders are so designed that Affairs: I think you had a long conversa­ they rtstnct debate. Every argument tlmr, tion with an international Jew this morning. has been put forwar~. this morning by }Ir. J. F. BARNES:. He was an inter­ members of the Oppos1hon had relation to national Jew, not an international financial the running of Parliament and that is what Jew, and I have always differentiated- this v?te is a bout,. but the Standing Orders are so des1,gned t.hat d1scussion is limited. We have The Secretary for Public Lands: He to wa1t unhl we get to some other depart­ would not be a medical man, would he~ me.nt before we can talk about particular }lr. J. l<'. BARNES:. Yes, he is a medical pomts. I say that the Standing Orders should man. It was Dr. Max Michel, whom l 1943-Y 674 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. interviewed in the lobby, and he is an inter· The Secretary for Public Lands: And national Jew. He left Germany in 1933, and outside Australia, too. he is not an international financial Jew. I have never claimed other than that there are Mr. POWER: Yes, outside Australia, as 70 or perhaps 300 learned Elders of Zion­ well. In a democracy, members of Parliament I do not know which number is correct, and are elected to carry out the functions of Par· I do not care-and I will do all in my power liament, not in the interests of a section of to help the lesser brethren or even some of the people, but in the interests of the majority the higher brethren in showing them that of them. Apparently the hon. member for they are wrong, so that the Minister's inter· West Moreton has been stung by the criticism jection is entirely out of order. of the Lord Mayor of Brisbane, and I should like to remind him that the criticism was ~Ir. POWER (Baroona) (12.5 p·.m.) : The directed only at the Opposition in this Par· Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the hon. liament and not at hon. members on this side member for West Moreton- of the Chamber, because they were not men· tioned. lUr. ~IAHER: I rise to a point of order. I should like to mention a matter that comes I do not \Yish to sail under false colours, under the direct control of Mr. Speaker, the and should like to point out that I am not way in which members of the floor staff have the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. to dress. For a considerable time Mr. Speaker has not worn his gown of office. That is Tile Treasure·r: Another repudiation! (Laughter.) entirely a decision for him alone, but I think it is rather ridiculous that in a State like Queensland, although Mr. Speaker discards Mr. POWER: The hon. member for West his gown, the Clerk ,has to come into the Moreton has evidently been stung by the fact Chamber in the heat of summer wearing a that the Lord Mayor of Brisbane referred gown, and other members of the staff wear· to the Opposition as a lazy Opposition. In ing dinner suits and dress shirts. In the his attempt to defend the Opposition, he has interests of the health of members of the reflected on the calibre and intelligence of staff, Mr. Speaker should give serious c;m· hon. members of this Parliament in general. sideration to the question of not expectmg I do not agree with his assertion that greater t,he floor staff to dress in that way, and to men could be attracted to Parliament by allowing them to dress in ordinary morning increasing parliamentary salaries. Hon. clothes. The staff have to work long hours. members are elected in a democratic way, Mr. Speaker believes that he should not wear and hon. members on both sides should have the gown of office, and I do not think he some knowledge of what is required of them should expect the Clerk of Parliament or the as legislators. Sergeant at Arms to come into the Chamber Hon. members on this side have been edu· wearing a white tie, a dicky shirt, or a dress cated in t,he very hard school of adversity. shirt and dinner suit. Such a thing is too Parliament is an institution for the protec· ridiculous for words. Let us get down to tion of the rights of all the people. It is the the ordinary method of dress. I suggest to duty of the Government to introduce legisla­ Mr. Speaker that he consider my proposal to tion on behalf of the people, aimed at t,he allow these members of the staff to wear development of the State and the best ordinary morning clothes while doing their interests of all concerned. I do not know how duty in Parliament. hon. members opposite select their political Mr. lUaher: Why not suggest that they candidates, but ·with the Labour Party the wear hobnailed boots, too~ selection and the election of candidates are entirely in the hands of the people, and the lUr. POWER:. There would be nothing remarks by the hon. member for West More· wrong in that; I have worn hobnailed boots ton reflect on the intelligence of the people myself. of Queensland. Look at the number of years I desire to compliment the staff generally that the Labour Party has been in control of this State. at Parliament House, and especially the '' H ansard'' staff, on their work. They work Tlle CHAIRMAN: Apparently the hon. lon"" hours and the '' Hansard'' staff's work member overlooks my ruling. What he is dis­ is ~xceedh~gly difficult at times. We know eussing now is not relevant to the vote before how difficult and exacting it must be to report the Committee. I ask him to deal with the the speeches of hon. members .and present vote. them in a proper way the followmg day. Mr. PO.WER: It is the duty of Parlia­ Honourable Members: Hear! hear! liament to approve of legislation that is in the interests of the people, and will bring Mr. POWER: They are entitled to our .about greater development, and it can safely thanks and congratulations for their splen· be said that Labour has been responsible did service on our behalf. It discloses clearly for considerable advancement and development that they have performed a considerable in Queensland. As a matter of fact, copies amount of hard work, that they have been of Queensland legislation have been sought by patient to a degree, and that they have given the other States of Australia, which clearly the closest attention to giving hon. members indicates that our leg·islation has been far a clear and faithful report of their speeches. in advance of the T>ork that has been done I desire to offer a word of congratulation in the other parts of Australia. to the staff of the refreshment rooms also. As Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 675

a result of shortage of man-power they have be well rewarded. The time is fast approach­ be·an working at a great disadvantage, but, ing when we legislators will at least aclmow­ nevertheless, have given very excellent service ledge this fact-that we want more religion to hon. members. in our community. Honourable Ill embers: Hear! hear! 1\Ir. 1\Iann: More Christianity, and indus­ trial religion. 1\Ir. POWER: They have had to work long hours and have done so without com­ Mr. LUCKINS: More Christianity, plaint. As a member of the Refreshment perhaps, that is the word. I am sure that Rooms Committee I have had opportunity of we all hope that prayer will be the founda­ knowing of these disadvantages. tion of all our la>Ys that are designed for the happiness, prosperity, and better conc1i­ .!Ur. }faher: They deserve a bonus for tions of our people. If so, our work will the good work they are doing now. make for better citizenship. }Ir. POWER: They have certainly done I am sincere in advocating a reduction in Yery good work and I believe are entitled to the number of members of Parliament. some consideration for the additional duties 1\lr. Chairman: Order! That is matter for they have performed because of shortage of legislation. staff. Shortage of staff has compelled the visitors' room to be closed during certain l\Ir. LUCKINS: I hope a record will bE> hours, and, consequently, hon. members have kept of the attendance of hon. members. It baen unable to entertain their visitors. I feel would let the public know whether there are sure that when staff is available that any lazy hon. members in this Assembly. privilege will be restored. We are criticised on that point. I attend I do not intend to reply in any way to the here regularly in the interests of my con­ remarks of the hon. member for Bundaberg, stituents. The time is fast approaching when except to say that I am rather amus·ed at his Parliament and legislators generally will have suggestion that Standing Orders be abolished. to review the conditions under which we have If Standing Orders were abolished the been living for many years. business of this Parliament would be subject The Secretary for Public Lands: You only to Rafferty 's rules. If the hon. member are very fortunately situated, being a member gave more study to the Standing Orders his of a city electorate. knowledge of the working of Parliament would be greater and it possibly would save l\Ir. LUCKINS: I recognise that I have him from getting into conflict with the Chair been fortunate all my life. That is a measure as he so frequently does. of satisfaction to myself, and I hope other hon. members are just as fortunate as I am. Mr. LUCKINS (Ma:ree) (12.15 p.m.): This is a very important debate, and as a new The Secretary for Public Lands: A member I want to give my impression of the record of attendance of hon. members will work of this Assembly. It is very interesting not disclose whether an hon. member is lazy for me to come along here to represent my or not. constituents to the best of my ability. One Mr. LUCKINS: The practice has been for pleasing incident occurs every morning. It is hon. members to give of their best to their the reading of prayers by Mr. Speaker. electors. 1\Ir. Edwards: Hear hear! The Government should so reorganise par­ liamentary procedure as to improve our Mr. LUCKINS: These prayers convey to method of making laws. I am not bla'ming me, and I hope to all hon. members, the great the Labour Party for discussing the Bills responsibility that rests upon our shoulders, behind closed doors, and then bringing them for they ask that divine guidance should before Parliament as Government measures. accompany our deliberations. Mr. Maher: Hear! hear! The CHAIRMAN: Order! 1\Ir. L UCKINS: I say they should be Jlr. LUCKINS: I wish with your permis­ discussed in this Assembly. sion, Mr. Brassington, to recite part of these prayers in the hope that their study will make The CHAIRMAN: Order! I point out to us better }egislators than we have been in the hon. member that what any party may do the past. They say, inter alia- is a matter entirely for that party, and it does­ " .... that all things may be so ordered not come within the scope of this vote. and settled by our endeavours upon the best and surest foundations; that peace and Mr. LUCKINS: I refer to Parliament as happiness, truth and justice, religion and we are assembled to-day. The electors have piety may be established among us for all changed the administration at times, but the generations. These and all other necessaries, same system prevails. If we are to enlarge for us, and Thy Whole Church we humbly on our activities as parliamentarians we beg in the Name and Mediation of Jesus should bring in measures that will be fully Christ, our Most Blessed Lord and debated in this Chamber, and the public would Saviour.'' then know from '' Hansard'' the opinions of each hon. member. Members are elected on If we apply those sentiments a little more the vote of the people, and are entitled tO> generally to our work I believe that we shall take their places here and make laws for the 676 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. government of the people. Parliament is, or Chairman of Committees brings us back to will be, passing through very difficult times. the right path, and gradually we learn. The We have the higher Parliament of the Com­ Parliament of Queensland has a long record monwealth of Australia, and I believe it con­ frum 1859 onwards. I have heard of the out­ flicts in many ways with the sovereign rights standing merits of the men of the days that of this Parliament. The time is fast are past, but when we come to examine approaching when Parliament will have to the capabilities and intelligence of members. re,-iew its position, and where its legislation I do not think there is much difference iB in conflict with the Commonwealth 's-- between the old members and the present members. There are good debaters in this The CHAIRMAN: Order! Chamber that I have listened to with pleasure, and I have learned something 'from them. lUr. LUCKINS: I did think that the I could trace the historv of the State from matter of the rights and privileges of this 1859, and show that tl1e men who sat on Assembly would come under this \ote. these benches in years past before there was The CHAIRMAN: In case the hon. mem­ any Labour Party contributed much to the bc>r was not present when I read an extract welfare of this State. from ''May's Parliamentary Practice'' this I honour the pioneers vvho served in this morning, I will repeat it. It says- Assembly and made Queensland \vhat it is '' The administrative action of a depart­ to-day, and I hope that men of the calibre ment is open to debate, but the necessity of those pioneers will arise in the future. for legislation and matters involving legis­ lation cannot be discussed in Committee of The PREMIER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Supply.'' Bremer) (12.24 p.m.): I am of the opinion It is obvious the m'atter the hon. member is that Parliament should sit whenever it is discussing would involve legislation. I ask possible for it to sit and there is work for it him to obey my ruling. to do. At the same time, in a huge State such as is Queensland, it is not possible to l'IIr. LUCKINS: In my opening remarks keep members from far distant constituencies I spoke about the need for more Christianity. tied down in the metropolitan area all the That applies to this Assembly. The Attorney­ time. They should have an opportunity of General made reference to prayer, and I hope visiting their constituencies and keeping in that outlook applies to each hon. member. It touch with their electors. Consequently it is is unfortunate that we hear slurs being cast necessary for us to have intervals between across the Chamber. I ask those hon. the sessions that will give members from far­ members who are guilty of that practice to distant parts that opportunity, which I am examine their own cunsciences. ''He that sure they need. is without sin among you, let him first cast I was very interested in the remarks of a stone at her." the ;hon. member for West Moreton on the I was sorry the Premier got down to such type of men we have in Parliament. I believe a very low state of dignity the other day. that in Parliament we have the representa­ tives of the people. That is the democratic The CHAIRMAN: Order! idea. There was a time when we did not Mr. LUCKINS: I will get on to another have in Parliament the real representatives matter. I acknowledge with pleasure the of the people. At times in the centuries gone work of the '' Hansard'' sta'ff. I have spoken by that representation was very restricted, on many occasions, and they have done a valu­ and those of us who have some little know­ able service for me, as for every hon. mem­ ledge of history know that those times were ber in this Assembly. On many occasions it not the best times. We know that civilisa­ is very difficult to take the speeches of hon. tion has made its greatest progress when members, but they have made an excellent there has been a wider and broader repre­ job of them:; when we read "Hansard" the sentation uf the ·people. All through the construction of our speeches is excellent, centuries there has been a struggle for different perhaps from what we heard across betterment, and that betterment has always the Chamber_ It has been revised and I am come from beneath, and risen to the snre the citizens have much pleasure in read­ top, leavening the whole. That is the lesson ing it. history has taught us. We read of King John and the barons at Runnymede. vVe know that To the staff of Parliament House gener­ King John thought the barons were a very ally I give thanks for the advice and help inferior people compared with the King, and I have received as a new hon. member. I consequently they had no rights and should asknowledge the little kindnesses I have not be considered in any way whatever. He received at all times at their hands. gave way to them only because he was forced At 12.23 p.m., • to do it. Mr. FARRELJ~ (Maryborough) relieved The hon. member for, "\Vest Moreton thought the Chairman in the chair. vYe needed a better type of men in the eo m­ munity to represent the people here-the ~Ir. LUCKINS: When a new member representatives of big business intere~ts. I comes here it is difficult for him to under· would remind the hon member that 1t was stand all the rules laid down by the Standing not men of big business interests that rid Orders. vV e sometimes get off the track, the world of slavery. They were the peop}e but the knowledge of the Speaker and the who upheld it. It was not the men of b1g Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 677 business interests who gave this Common­ won from our opponents a seat not at all wealth free public instruction. That was a safe seat. We take that risk year after given to us by a man in New South Wales year, Parliament after Parliament, of facing who came of the people. He was a man, if the constituency and getting our endorsement. you like to use the term, in a very lowly I do not believe in the safe seat, and I do not position. He had so little education himself believe that a man's seat should be so safe that his diction was not the best, nor was that he can ignore what should be the ordinary his grammar of the very best. None the less, decencies of Parliament. he had in him the inspimtion that gave to the people of Australia virtually the educa­ lUr. ~iaJ1er: Actually, there is no such tional system that we have throughout the thing as a safe seat. Commonwealth to-day. The PRElUIER.: I am glad to hear the Jllr. Yeates: Sir Charles Lilley. hon. member say that. I have a great appreciation of the position of this Parlia­ The PUElUIER: No, long before Sir ment. I know that we are maligned, I know Charles Lilley. It was Sir Henry Parkes, that we are traduced, I know that we do not of New South Wales. always get the fair consideration for the work Mr. N,icklin: Queensland had free educa­ we do that we should get. tion before New South Wales. Mr. lH:acdonald: Hardly ever. The PR.EllHER: Yes, but it was the The PREMIER: Maybe that is nearer advocacy of Sir Henry Parkes in New South the mark than I was prepared to go; Wales that inspired all the others and laid I always like a little latitude, something to the foundation for the whole. It was not come and go on. the men of big business interests that did a tremendous thing for the people of this This Parliament has done much and will country and gave us the final idea of the do more. When I look back over the history rights of the people. These men with their of Australia, when I think of the fine things ideals plodded on, planned, and did all they that have been done for Australia and look could to build the organisation known as at the people who have done them, I know unionism. That organisation has done more that in 99 cases out of 100, the ideals they for the elevation of mankind than any other have espoused, the causes they have made material organisation I know of. their own, have been the aspirations and ideals of the ordinary, average electors of Government Members: Hear! hear! this State. Those are the people who are the salt of the earth. They are the people The PREllHER: It 'Was despised; con­ who have made this world what it is to-day spiracy laws were passed to keep it in sub­ and will make it a better world. jection. None the less, this movement, which was of the people and came from the very Mr. Macdonald: The rule is to lean to bottom, has so leavened this world that it the mean of the masses, not the outstanding is an entirely better place to-day. Parliament individual. has done its best work not when its rep­ The PREMIER: That puts it particularly resentation was restricted to the few, not when well. I agree with that sentiment. That its members spoke only for people who had a is what we want in Parliament-rep­ certain amount of property. Its best work resentation of the mean of the masses. has been done since the people won the free After all, who are the nationsW Getting that choice to elect those of their kind they con­ would get us nearer the ideals of the nation sidered best to do the job. I believe that than we should otherwise get. Who make what we need in Parliament to-day is repre­ the nations but the ordinary average man sentation of the ordinary, average elector that and woman of the nation~ Who, after all, will give us the true inwardness of the ideals are the people who do things~ The ordin­ and the aspirations of the ordinary, average ary average individual. Never have we had elector. In all walks of life we have to do to look for guidance from what I might call particular jobs, but we have found that except the people who are well settled, well pro­ at his own particular job the expert has failed. vided for, and who have the peculiar out­ These things are so well known that I need look that allows their minds to pass all not go fmther into them. their responsibilities over to the community. One other remark of the hon. member for I cannot understand why men who have got West Moreton that I should like to touch from the community all a community can upon is that men of high standing, men in give in the way of education, in the way of high positions and men who are capable of decent principles, can completely ignore com­ earning big salaries in other directions would munities that have given them that. I know, not take a risky seat. Parliament should not of course,

Mr. RIORDAN: If he does not represent allow him to stay here. While we have those the people the people will soon get rid of safeguards we shall have no Fascism-or him; possibly that will be the fate of many Communism, which aims at the dictatorship of us after the next election; but we have of the proletariat; because no matter what no squeal coming, we are not protected birds its name may be anything that sets about that we should be guarded from the expression creating a dictatorship will get no support of the will of the people who make all demo­ from me. cracies great. I have devoted my life to the attainment lUr. J. F. Barnes: You are game to of the higher standards of democracy, and say what you think. while we retain the right of every person of 21 years of age and over to elect their parlia­ Mr. RIORDAN: Every hon. member of the mentary representative without fear of conse­ House has the right to say in this Chamber quence we shall have the very best form of just what he thinks. The people who try to government, despite the imperfections we have create the impression that the right of certain from time to time found it to possess. men to say what they think is curtailed here I take this opportunity of pointing out that are doing the work of the Fascists and the in the community there is a section of people people who do not believe in the democracy who are for ever trying to pull down the par­ under which we live. liamentary form of government. Over the lUr. Maher: What about Marriott and years, with the development of Fascism and Taylor~ Nazi-ism, they have had-- lUr. RIORDAN: Marriott and Taylor are Mr. J. F. Barnes: What are you doing here to say what they like, and they have to stop it~ said it on every occasion that they have got up, and nobody can deprive them of the right ltir. RIORDAN: I will tell the hon. mem­ to get up and say it. ber in a minute. Whatever they have done in the past, these people have spread their lUr. J. F. Barnes: You expelled them for tentacles to all the democracies of the world. saying it. They have their agents at work. They can be termed Fifth Columnists, if one likes to Mr. RIORDAN: Marriott and Taylor call them that, but the fellow who is always have to conform to the rules and platform belittling his parliamentary representatives of the Australian Labour Party if they wish and trying to cut the ground from to remain members of that party, and if under their feet unfairly is an uncon­ they do not conform to the rules and plat­ scious Fifth Columnist. My mind goes form they still remain members of Parlia­ to a Press statement made when there ment with the right to say what they like, were visiting Australia recently, Sena­ whether they are members of the Australian tors of the United States of America, our Labour Party or not, the same as mem­ ally and one of the greatest democracies in bers of the Opposition must. Hon. mem­ the world. To those who did not study it bers opposite will do likewise to any­ closely, the statement appeared innocent one who does not conform to the rules enough. The statement appeared in a news­ and platform of their party, and they paper with a huge circulation in Queensland, know that is true. If they want to get and if anything in the world has attempted to down to tin-tacks, what about Mr. Larking, discredit the representatives of democracy, what about Mr. Brand, what about Mr. Coles, that article did. The article contained a what about Alex Wilson ~ They have failed photograph of the Senators before they set out to conform to the rules and platform of the on their inspection and ridiculed these Sena­ various parties to which they belonged and tors because when they went to camps of they have been removed from those parties, Allied soldiers they would ask if there was but that does not deprive them of the right any soldier there from their own State. to say what they want to say. Would it not be only natural for a Queens­ lUr. J. F. Barnes: Alex. Wilson was not lander visiting military camps in which a member of any party. thousands of soldiers were congregated in England or America, after concluding the lUr. RIORDAN: He was a member of the legitimate business of his visit, to ask if Country Party and attended their caucus. there was any man present from a particular Having brought the matter under the notice locality inasmuch as he might know him and, of the Committee I think it is only fitting at least, would be able to talk to him on that the hon. member for West Moreton matters of common interest~ These are the sort should say definitely what he believes in. Are of things that are bearing democracy down, but we to have a democratic representation of the they are done by those who prate most about people in this Parliament, or are we going to the principles of democracy. This statement have a mess-up as we had by the creation of endeavoured to hold up to ridicule Senators certain movements, members of which are sup­ who had come to Australia on behalf of the posed to be the brains of this country, who greatest democracy and on behalf of those have high scholastic attainments with no more people who are doing most to keep the forces idea of the wants of the people of democracies of invasion from Australian shores. That than a bird of passage W The people who are statement appeared in the Press under _an responsible for the election of a democratic innocent guise to discredit men doing a service Government elect their representatives irre­ to their country. spective of their scholastic attainments. He I have here, handed to me by the Secretary ean stay here only so long as the people for Public Lands, a letter that gives the gist Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] &~pply. 681 of this article from a pastoralist. It is only ''Suppose, however, that in place of our fitting that I should read it to the Corn· catch-as-catch-can system of parliamentary mittee- representation we put in a collection of "Unkind Press. university professors. What a hash they "Sir,-While one may sympathise with would make of things! And ye gods! the politician in his natural reaction to at Wouldn't they fight! Or let us try clergy­ least unsympathetic reporting, the harm it men. I belong to the Anglican Church, so does is not to him personally. when young, at times attended a synod. Couldn't these old boys deal out wordy ''It makes him out to be an ordinary stoush to each other~ And most often the Bveryday fellow and that is exactly his sanguinary luftwaffes would all be about highest recommendation. As he has to be the ornaments on their pinafores-I mean the mouthpiece of the ordinary everyday their vestments. Or we might try the medi­ men and women and children of the corn· cal profession. Has anyone ever known two munity, the nearer he is to them the better doctors to agree about anything~ If we does he represent them. His greatest merit tried the better or at all events the better is that, not having had the benefit of cul­ said of the followers of the inky way, our ture he is not steeped in tradition; there­ luck would be no better. I do not agree fore, he is ever demolishing some tradition with those who believe that the average that has ceased to be of value to the com­ newspaper man hasn't enough original munity. At first a tradition may serve brains to carry refreshments to a bear (not because it means order and system but when too valuable a bear at that) but it must be it becomes an iron band around the com­ admitted that original thinking or action munal head to keep the brains from expand­ of any kind is not their everyday meat. ing, it should die. If it doesn't, it pro­ We seem to have arrived back at our duces such curses as the caste system of ordinary everyday politician of the catch­ India. as-catch-can system. ''The politician should ask not to be judged by his words but by his deeds. One '.' T~e harm t~a~ . is done in unduly of the greatest windbags that was ever b~httlmg the pohtlCian, and by holding inflicted on the New South Wales Parlia­ h1m up to scorn and ridicule is not so much ment left one act that bears his to the individual himself as to the com­ name:-' The Legitimation of Illegitimate munity that makes him what he is. Much Children's Act.' What a memorial! One beyond that it tends to destroy the con­ ean readily forgive his all too often stupid fidence in and respect for, our political loquacity. Another New South Wales poli­ system of government which has been built tician of great wind power who invariably up by many generations of thinking men made hash of his aspirates, was the father and through long ages of human strife: of free education and indeed of federation. This at least has been attained-a system His name was Parkes-Sir Henry Parkes to which provides within itself the means and you. It has been rightly said of him that the spirit for its own peaceable improve­ he did much to make Australia a better ment. We might say that it has an elasticity country for free men to live in. to meet human needs from time to time as "We bush-folks have a saying that good they arise. . This has all been accomplished horses run in all shapes, so it is with poli­ by the ordmary everyday men who have ticians! Sir Samuel Walker Gri:ffith, a man been chosen by the ordinary everyday men of colossal intellect, set the foundations of and women of the community, and almost good legislation in Queensland. My per­ always it has met with the fierce and per­ sonal frie11ds, Alfred Deakin in Victoria sistent opposition from the classes of cul­ and Sir Littleton Groom in Queensland, ture and privilege who consciously or uncon­ were men of outstanding intellectual merit sciously uphold tradition. and they were grand Australians and there ''M. R. Shannon, have been many others. ''Olive Downs, ''When posterity judges this generation "Nebo." with the fairness that comes from know­ ledge, two men at least will rank high. At 2.15 p.m., Forgan Smith of Queensland and R. G. The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. Menzies of Victoria-and here, too, there will be many others. lUr. RIORDAN: From time to time we ''The true perspective can best be hear people pulling democratic Assemblies attained by a wide purview of the work to pieces. !Often this is as a result of a well­ accomplished by any Legislature. The 30 conceived plan on the part of people who, years' span is a good one. Take the legis­ under the guise of ridiculing Parliament and lative and social position 30 years ago, bringing Parliament and parliamentarians compare it with the position to-day, and at into disTepute, wish to dmg down democratic the same time consider the stress and institutions. It has been stated from time to necessities of the intervening period! It time that the unseemly conduct of hon. mem­ will be surprising to see the high quality of bers in this Chamber has been one cause of the work that has been done and the high this criticism. That may be so, but as long ideals that are manifest in it. It is well as Parliament has been Parliament, suc)l said that the collective ability and character scenes have taken place occasionally, and the of any of our legislative bodies is always conduct of this Parliament is as good to-day greater than that of the individual men as that of any Parliament of which I have who comprise it. lmowledge in Australia has ever been. But 682 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

there are certain forces at work, their object me from the soap box, too, and with some being to harass politicians constantly and to effect. I have said worse things from the criticise parliamentary procedure continually, soap box because I was forced into that for the purpose not of building up democracy position by people who were not concerned but of tearing it down. about their own words and who were not What has been the plan of campaign responsible to anybody, not even to them­ over the last 15 or 20 years since we selves. They were not capable of that and have known Nazi-ism and Fascism~ Has it they were not responsible to anybody because not been an attempt on every possible occa­ they were m'entally unbalanced. That is the sion by a certain section of the community to only conclusion I can come to. discredit Parliament~ Has this not led to I trust the vote will go through. The unruly scenes, fomented possibly by those members of the parliamentary staff have people who are Nazis and Fascists in the done a splendid work in the interests of this Parliaments established under democracy Parliament. throughout the world~ These people have only one purpose-that of pulling down parliamen­ Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (2.23 tary government, the form of government we p.m.): I desire to compliment the hon. mem­ enjoy in this country-democracy. Whether ber for Bowen who succeeded in speaking for we like it or not, there are certain forces at 20 minutes without being called to order. work in this community that seek the elec­ tion of themselves or members of their party The CHAIRJfAN: Order! and who, if they happen to be elected, imme­ Mr. J. F. BARNES: I am complimenting diately set about deliberately destroying the him on his speech because he did not get very structure to which they have been elected away from the subject. You have taken it -Parliament. As it was described by Gedye, up the wrong way, Mr. Brassington. I have one of the most famous war correspondents, here a copy of "Hansard," which says- who I believe is at present in Russia, in his book, ''Fallen Bastions,' ' these people '' Mr. Speaker: I name the hon. member acclaim democracy, but immediately they win for Bremer, Mr. Oooper, for disobeying the a seat in Parliament they throw the ball direction of the chair. " away, because there is no more game of Then the following motion was moved- democracy. There are at work in this Com­ monwealth certain forces which, if they '' That the hon. member for Bremer, Mr. Cooper, be suspended from the service of oper:=~.ted under any other system of govern~ ment in any other part of the world, would the House . . . ..• " be destroyed immediately; but under a demo­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! I have already cracy we tolerate them. ruled that matters already dealt with cannot There are imperfections in democracy. be discussed on this vote. Possibly there are imperfections in certain of the representatives we elect to Parliament, Mr. J. F. BARNES: I only want to point but at least the people have the say as to who out that even the Premier has been suspended those representatives shall be and the majority by the House. The Tory Government decide the brand of politics to be favoured. suspended the Premier, but not without pay, When they are dissatisfied with their repre­ and the Labour Government sent me out sentative they cast him aside at the polling­ without pay. I hold in my hand my income­ booths. Those are rights that we should tax assessment adjustment sheet which says- retain and jealously guard in this Common­ '' The following alterations, amendments, wealth. In this Parliament, from time to etc., have been made to the income as time, we are allowed what some people call previously assessed for the year ended freedom of expression. Some have almost 30 June, 1942.'' treated it as licence, and we have seen the Then the following appears- sorry spectacle of hon. members rising and violently criticising certain members of the ' 'In your return for the above year you public service and of the community in general omitted to return £30 travelling allowance when those persons have no opportunity of received by you. Your assessment has now defending themselves against these slanderous been amended to include this amount.'' statements. We jealously reserve to ourselves That had the effect of increasing my taxable certain privileges, and it is not always pos­ parliamentary salary of £550 to £.580 and it sible to extend to those who are attacked the brought the tax on my parliamentary salary privilege of answering the charge. from £97 3s. to' £105 19s., which meant that We have seen gross abuse of the privileges I had to pay £8 16s. tax on my allowance of of this Parliam'ent by the atta;cks that have £30 for travelling, which by the way costs me been made on public servants in particular at least £50 a year. who had no redress. Those hon. members The Secretary for Public Lands: To will not go outside Parliament to repeat the whom did you pay the tax f slanderous and scurrilous attacks that have been made from time to time. Mr. J. F. BARNES: In that case to the Federal Government, not the State Govern­ Mr. J. F. Barnes: You have said worse ment. I get £50 a year for stamp m'Oney, but from the soap box. stamps cost me at least £80. I also get £10 for telegrams and 'phone money but those Mr. RIORDAN: I have heard the hon. items cost me at least £40 a year. Some­ member from the soap box and he has heard body spoke about our salaries. When I was Supply. [ 5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 683 on the soap box at Bundaberg prior to file succeed in reaching. For instance, in this coming here someone said ''Move for a Parliament most of us would like to attain reduction in salaries." I said, "No, I will to th6 administrative positions filled by the move for an increase. Every man is worthy ex-Premier, the Hon. W. Forgan Smith. of his hire and a good man has to be paid. There was a remarkable example of natural That is my outlook on the salary and allow­ talent, great determination resolution and ance position.'' ability. He was a student of State,' Com­ Someone suggested that members of wonwealth, and world affairs. Most of us Parliament were ridiculed but we cannot be on this side of the Chamber would like to the subject uf ridicule unless we expose our­ pa.ttern ourselves on the ex-Premier and selves to ridicule. On one occasion last year leader of this party, the Hon. AI·thur l\Ioorc, ~!le Government instead of legislating in the for his keen knowledge, experience and n_1terests of Queensland put through legisla­ ability. He was a very keen student 'and a tiOn to put one man in gaol. Imagine a highly capable man. Those are the st~ndards Government's legislating at a cost of some we should have in Parliament. It is not thou_sancls of pounds to the people with the possible for all to reach them, but the men spec1fic purpose of putting one man in gaol! responsible for the selection of candidates for Parliament should adopt the principle of The CHAHCUAI'i: Order! Napoleon that every man canies in his knap­ sack the baton vf a marshal of France. JUr. J. F. EARXES: Could they demand respect for that~ The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: The mere acquisition of wealth The CHJ.JRJUAN: Order! The hon. mem­ »ill not make a man a good member of Par­ ber is now discussing legislation. liament. llir. J. V. BARNES: Yes. I realise that. nil". I\IAHER: I did not argue that HO\Y could they demand respect~ wealthy men should have prioTity to enter Parliament. 'l'l1e C!LUR:UA.i'\: Order! T1w Secretary for Healtll and Home Jir. J. J'. IUR:n-:s: In the past it y.·as Affairs: That was the impression you gave suggestct1 that members of Parliament >Terc this morning. the .-ictims of bribery and corruption and I saggesTcd a >vay out of it. I have made the JUr. JlLLHER: No, that is a possible suggestion for three yetus now and this year handicap. I did not use that illustration in I gave the Government a chance to "et over the way suggested by the Minister. It is a the diffim1lty. What has happened~ Did the banier; everything depends on the man him­ _Gove_rnment take advantage of my suggestion selL lt should be the dnty of a political by mcluding an appropriate Bill in liis organisation outside to give more attention Excellmcy 's Speech~ No. Then I brought ~o that factor when selecting their candidates the matter up bv >vay of private member's m order to strengthen our democratic motion and it was ''\vipecl. 'J institutions and Parliament in particular. 'fhat is tho important point. If we elect to The CHAIRlUAN: Order! That matter Parliament a great majority of the weakest is still on the business-sheet. lllfn then the ::\Iinistries selected from them will ]earl to >Yeak go>·ernment, and >Ye shaH llfr. J. J<'. JURNES: It will be "wiped;" it has to be ''wiped.'' consequent]~· ha Ye a weak Parliament; and so power will pass from Parliam·ent into the hDilds of a dictatorship of the able men in ~Ir. ~IAHER (West l\Ioreton) (2.26 p.m.): In the few minutes of my time that is left to the public service, who will dominate the me I propose to reply to the Premier's com­ party and tluough the party, PaTliament. We ment, in which he accused me of sayin" that should encourage abler and youno-er men in only men ·with a knowledge of busineo: were the eunn~unity to take up politics~ I merely qualified to enter Parliament. That is not asl',ed th.1s morning if we could by a higher what I said at all. I urged that we should salaTy for members of Parliament attract seek the best men possible and that the two ~nen with those qualifications. If we could, big political organisations, representing 1 should rhecrfully vote for it. It appear~ the Labour Party on the one hand and those to me that Ir.any men of outstandhw capacity who ronstitute the Opposition on the other, w_ould not enter Parliament und~· present should work towards that encl. When cucnmstances because they have more hope vacancies occur they should seek out the of realising tl1eir ambitions in business anti :>blest men it is possible to get. After all, on the land, and because of the risks gener­ 1t does not m·atter what the occupation of ally, including the financial risk, to be run such a man is. It has been readily pointed here. Therefore, we have to put up with out that some uf the most capable members men of more mediocre capabilities. of Parliament Australia has known have . The Secretary for Public Lands: There risen up. f_rom the ranks, indeed from very 1s a great deal of truth in the statement lowly ongms. We have seen that in every you make to-clay. Australian Parliament. I do not think any­ one would disagree with the proposition t11at )Ir. lUAHEll: I am glad it ll!eets with in every party there is a fairly wiCle aan the approval of the Secretary for Public l>etween the heights to which great leacle,;s Lands. Our aim should be to improve Pa~­ attain and those that svme of the rank and liament. 684 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

lUr. POWER (Baroona) (2.31 p.m.) : It for repairs, keeping grounds in order, &c., might he interesting for the information of and the expenditure was as follows:- the public if I gave some idBa of the cost of running Parliament. Quite a number of £ s. d. people havB an idea that money is wasted Wages (gardening assist­ in Parliament, because of extravagance. I ance) 45 16 2 have some official figures concerning the Building upkeep (fire alarm, expenditure of this Parliament. It is interest­ flags, &c.) .. 13 17 11 ing to note that in every case the vote has Council rates .. 13 14 6 been under-spent. Take the first item, the Repairs and adjustments amount for postages and incidentals. The (mower, locks) 8 2 2 allocation was £350. Then we find the follow­ Soil and fertilizers 4 8 7 ing items of expenditure:- Plants, &c. 1 10 0 £ s. d. £87 9 4 Household requirem'ents 95 13 10 Nobody can reasonably say that these Laundry 53 10 0 grounds have not been well looked after and Upkeep of floors, wax, kept in good order during the past 12 months. cleaners, &c. 49 5 6 The figures show that careful control has Newspapers 32 3 10 been exercised over that expenditure. Petty Cash 30 0 0 UnemploymBnt Insurance 29 16 7 The vote for "Hansard" and Other Print­ ing, &c., was £5,500, and the expenditure is Total £290 9 9 as follows:- £ s. d. That goes to show there has been careful Printing '' Hansard'' 2,830 18 6 management. Printing Votes and Pro- The refreshment rooms are a difficult sec­ ceedings (part cost) 150 0 0 tion to control because provision has to be Reports 120 8 4 made for meals at short notice and sometimes Acts 197 0 0 p8!'b.::!,p~ t:h::; ;.:l~!:~g~:::-::;[;c, bclic..-.... i:::g P~:::-li~~c:u:t Bil!g 251 18 8 is going to sit at night, makes the necessary ''Government Gazette' 20 6 3 arrangements and it does not sit. She must Telephones (rentals and be always ready to meet any set of circum· calls) 1,000 15 8 stances that may arise. The vote for the Pay-roll Tax 279 13 0 refreshment rooms was £1,000 and the expen­ Stationery and Printing 217 14 2 diture was £1,000. Expenditure was kept Wages (temporary assist- within the estimate and that reflects great ance) 123 13 11 credit on the manageress and the staff. The Car Hire 73 16 6 appropriation for gas for parliamentary Postage on Parliamentary buildings was £145 and the total expenditure papers; cartage, &c. 66 19 0 was £122 7s. 1d. 'rhe library is a very Household and Office RB­ important section and the vote-books, bind­ quiremen ts 33 4 6 ing, &c.-was £525. The expenditure was Overtime to Messengers, &c. 31 3 7 made up as follows:- Exchange on E.P.A. Contri­ bution, Registration 27 9 6 £ s. d. Upkeep of Building (fur- Books and Periodicals 280 18 11 nishings, &c.) 20 12 5 Payment to Agent-General 82 13 0 Meals during Session 13 11 10 Newspapers 66 5 0 Billiard Room Upkeep 13 8 0 Binding 46 10 4 Police Allowance for Session 12 2 0 Insurance Premium 15 12 0 Books of Reference 6 6 1 Stationery and Printing 5 2 2 Entertainment of Visitors 3 19 6 ''Government Gazette'' 1 5 0 £5,495 1 5 £498 6 5 Again those figures show a careful considera­ Again that shows careful control and manage­ tion has been Bxercised over that section of ment; thB total vote has not been expended. Parliament's work. The vote for electric The library (contingencies) vote was £100, light (current, renewals, &c.) was £325, and and the expenditure, totalling £61 16s. 7d., thB expenditure totalled £259 9s. 4d. was made up as follows:- Those figures are illuminating, and it is £ s. d. well that the public should know that careful Allowance for cleaning control is exercised over any vote that may library 38 0 0 be passed for expenditure in connection with Household and office require- the House. They speak well for the control ments 12 18 11 and management of the various departments Overtime 4 15 0 we have here, and I am glad to make the Unemployment Insurance 2 12 2 figures u.vailable so that the people may know Petty Cash 2 0 0 there is no waste of money, but, on the con­ Meals during Session 1 10 6 trary, expenditure is carefully husbanded and the greatest care is exercised. It is plPasing Again the total amount has not been to note that under almost every head th(; expended. An amount of £250 was allocated vote has not been fully expended. Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 685

Mr. TAYLOR (Enoggera) (S·.39 p.m.): I Mr. TAYLOR: At that time I had no listened to speeches of hon. members with balance-sheet with me. a greal deal of interest. The theme of most of their speeches was that of democratic Tlle CHAIRMAN: Order! control by Parliament and some of the attacks that are made by outside forces on Mr. TAYLOR: To-day I want to table that system. this balance-sheet for hon. members of this Committee to read, and I think I have a With regard to Parliament itself, one need legitimate right to do so. This balance-sheet only go back to the time when Guy Fawkes has been issued. tried to blow up the House of Commons to know that attacks have been made on Parlia­ Mr. J. F. BARNES: I rise to a point of ment down through the ages. Certain sec­ order. I move the balance-sheet be tabled. tions of the community will always attack members of Parliament and Parliament gener­ The CHAIR.l\'IAN: Order! There is no need for a motion. The hon. member will ally, but the parliamentary system should table it if he so desires. give every person elected the opportunity to express his views freely on all matters brought lUr. TAYLOR: This balance-sheet will before Parliament when they do not clash to show the interjection by the Attorney-General any great extent with the policy that member was untrue. I allowed it to go in '' Han­ has to support. sard.'' I had the right of editing that Some members of Parliament accept the particular speech. privilege of Parliament as licence. The privi­ Tlle Attorney-General: And I want to lege allowed to 3- member of Parliament is say what the Attorney-General said was true. something the average person does not under­ Was not £2,000 collected and only £18 senH stand. An hon. member can make a charge in this Chamber and say things he does not Tlle CHAIRliiAN: Order! intend even to go into '' Hansard,'' and they are eliminated therefrom by his own right of Mr. J. F. Barnes: They did not take any excision. That hon. member would not be notiee of you. permitted to make the statement in public Tlle Attorney-General: It was true. because of the libel laws made by the Legis­ lature. Sometimes it may be a good thing The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ that certain privileges are given to members ber for Enoggera is not going to take this of Parliament, and it might be better, as was opportunity of discussing a matter that cannot suggested by the hon. member for Bundaberg, be discussed on this vote. It is a question of if the speeches in Parliament were broadcast, making a personal explanation, and he had as they are in New Zealand. If the bro;>d­ the opportunity of doing that on the Friday casting system was such that it could also morning, after the meeting of the Committee broadcast interjections, that would probably on Thursday night. result in an effort to stop some of the things that are said imputing dishonesty to the Mr. TAYLOR: I am asking that under person to whom they are made. this vote-- Over the past few weeks there has been an The CHAIRlUAN: Order! I am ruling attempt by people outside Parliament to use that the hon. member cannot do that. what they call pressure on myself and the hon. member for Bulimba. Some hon. mem­ llfr. TAYLOR: I am asking that under bers here have assisted by the statements this vote this balance-sheet be tabled in reply made in this Chamber, and I am sorry to say to the interjection of Thursday night. one statement made on Thursday night from The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ the front bench of the Government comes ber can table his balance-sheet, but he is not within that class. Hon. members will realise entitled to debate it. that during the past 18 months I have attempted to protect an organisation known Mr. TAYLOR: I want to P'oiut out that as the Australian-Russian Medical Aid to I have to protect people concerned in this Soviet Russia Fund from malicious statements organisation. made inside and outside Parliament. I have not asked that anything else but the truth The CHAIR.l\'IAN Order! I am ruling that be stated in regard to the position the hon. the hon. member cannot debate it. member for Bulimba and I now occupy as hon. llfr. TAYLOR: If that is your ruling, members of this Parliament. That truth has Mr. Brassington, I shall have to bow to it. been stated by me, but the truth of those in I am asking for a democratic right. opposition has not been stated in regard to the statement made by the Attorney-General Tile Se,cretary for Mines: You will get on Thursday evening last when I was spenk­ it at the right time and place. ing, "You only sent £18 out of £2,000." Mr. TAYLOR: I have in my pocket an The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ instance of another attempt to use pressure ber is outside the scope of this vote. on a member of ParliameRt. Recently, the area officer at Water street forwarded to me, ~fr. TAYLOR: That statement was made in spite of the section of the Defence Act in this Chamber. that does not permit him to do so, forms for me to fill in as a member of Parliament The CHAIRMAN: Order! with respect to military enrolment. 686 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

]}Ir. Devries: Other members of Parlia­ .Th'Ir. TAYLOR: I believe that this Parlia­ ment suffered the same as you did. ment, whether it is recognised as a demo· cratic Chamber or othenvise, is the only l1Ir. TAYLOU: Probably so, but they channel the people haYe at the moment should not do it. Section 196 of the Defence through which they can express their desires. Act exempts members of Parliament, while I have endeavoured at all times to tell the they are members of Parliament from having truth in this Chamber. I have endeavoured to iill in these forms, and the' hon. member to bring up matters that I believed to be of knows it. importance to the people who sent me here. The Secretary for }Iines: I filled one in Whether the Government have thought them and ~was medically examined. important to my electors or not does not matter, but I have never attempted to malign l1Ir. TAYLOR: I object to being singled any man in this Chamber. Certainly, I have out for pressure. replied to interjections, but I have never Thir. Den·ies: But you have not been. attempted to traduce or malign any hon. mem· ber of this Parliament. At times I have had lUr. TAYLOR: I have been. to pTotect people who have been associated with me in humanitarian undeTtakings; that lUr. Devries: There are others beside is whv I have had to make statements in yourself. I had one myself. this ChambeT on questions that othenYise Thir. J. F. Barnes: I got one and com­ would not haye concerned hon. members indi­ pletely ignored it. vidually. I have taken that oppoTtunity only because I have been fOl'ced to do it. I JUr. TAYLOR: I ignored the first one believe that sooner or lateT the people them­ sent to me, but they sent a further one bv selves will take the opportunity of seeing that registered letter. If a member of Parliamcl{t Pm·liament does its job and does not get is going to be subjected to issues like this, a'my fTom the things PaTliament is s::tid to where are \VC going to iinish? represent-a democratic ideal. In this State \Ye can see-in fact, we see it throughout Aus­ 'i'1w Secretary for Puhlic Lam1s: When tmlia-the simmering of a movement that ic; did you gd th~ t? going to hold the political parties represented in Parliament to the absolute expression of ::IIr. TAYLOR: Last Thursday. the things that mean democracy, not lip­ seTvice. Tlw Secretary for Public Lands: These •other gentlemen had theirs 18 months ago. Xo legislati,-e proposal ever had the sup­ port of 100 per cent. of the members of the 3Ir, TJ.TLOR: I had them 18 months paTty moying it in PaTliament. I can go ago, too, but I went clmn1 to sEe the thrn back over ' 'Han:card'' for yeaTs and examine officer in chm·ge at \Yater stret t and he \vas the speeches marle by the bte Charles Collins, honest enough to admit that I did call on a former member for Ba>Yen, who said him a bout tlie matter, but certain people out­ in this Assembly n great deal WOTse than I side \Vho, I suppose, think they arc doin" a ever snit1, and yvas neveT stood up for it. At \vonderful job in helping people to put thi~1gs that time tlie paTty was not in the position owr the hon. member for Bulimba and of being able to stand a man up. TheTe was myself-as has been happening oyer a con­ more democracy in those Administrations siderable period-do this kind of thing. Not than there is at the pTesent time. only are they Yvasting the taxpayers' monev -which is leYied for the war effoi-t-but they Tlw CHAIRIIIAN: Order! are also Yvasting man-hours in sending these J!r. TAYLOR: I want to appeal to the forms out. Anc1 it is not bein" done with the House to realise that there is something idea of getting registrations. I am registered yitally ne~essar:v to-day in view of the world with the man-power authorities in this State situation and the crisis through which this the same as eYery other hon. member. countTy is passing. This PaTliament should, as far as possible, extend a full measure of ]'fir. ~Iann: Are you sugesting that the democratic control to every membeT of State Govemmcnt got them to do that W Pluliament sent heTe by the people. 1Ur. Tj.YLOR: No, I am not saying that. I table the balance-sheet of the Medical They do not want any suggestion at all. Aid to Soviet Russia Fund. Some of them are kind enough 'to think if they are supporters of the Government that lUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (2.53 they will be doing the Government a good p.m.: There is one matteT I overlooked when turn by getting in on us. This is not the I spoke befOTe and that was to express appre· only thing we have had sent to us. We have ciation of the staff-the Clerk of the Parlia· been bombarded with stuff during the last ment and his assistants, right clown through 18 months. I have locked a\vay quite a nice the entire staff, not forgetting the attendants bit of stuff that I will use in the coming 0~1 the switehbonrd and those in the parlia· election campaign. mentan· refreshment rooms. I have been eo-opcroting and helping Mr. Speaker in l'tir. iUassey: Quite a happy party, eh? some of his difficulties. It may be all right for an hon. member in the city, but at times Tl1e Secretary for HeaJth and Home there are things that country members find Affairs : He will not be on his own in the rather awkward. Perhaps a person will call party, I can assure you. on an hon. member at Parliament House at Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 687

12.30 p.m. when an hon. member is busy, and calves in the eattle districts and a lesser loss he will say to the visitor, " You had better of sheep in the sheep districts. Most of the stay for lunch and we will talk the matter sheep areas have their dog-netted groups, or over.'' That is one of the rights of an the runs are individually dog-netted. Ve.ry hon. member and the sooner it is fixed up the many graziers in the cattle districts to-day better. I know there is a war on; I do not complain that they sustain anything from 5 forget that. I am ready to put up with diffi­ to 50 per cent. loss of calves each year culties, but the little ones may be overcome. through the depredations of the wild dog. On the subject of Mr. Speaker's robes, the That is a tremendous economic loss to the last thing I would do would be to dictate to State. People in my own district assure me Mr. Speaker. Of course, I am not frightened. that they lose in a dry time up to 50 pHr (Laughter.) I remember what happened in cent. of the total number of calves dropped. 1938. I like to move with the times but I In these days, when the country is in need of like some of the old traditions, too. Despite beef, when rationing is being seriously dis· wh::ct the h?I?-· member for Baroona has said, cussed, this is very important. No-one can I like trad1.t10n. . At one time I thought the forecast with any accuracy when the war is policemen m Bnsbane should wear khaki likely to end, but everything points to the and that those in Toowoomba, where ther~ fact that even after the European war is is an exhilarating climate, should wear smart cleared up it will still take some time to liqui­ blue serge. I am only trying to draw an date the Japanese. It is likely greater armies, analogy, Mr. Brassington, so please do not air forces, and navies will be based on this stotJ me ye~. (L:wghter.) I pulled up several country in order to drive back the Japanese, policemen m Bnsbane and they said ''It is and, therefore, the provision of beef is of not very hot, besides we need not w~ar wool paramount importance. Every calf lost underwear.'' I am going to leave it at that. to-day through the depredations of the dingo The Clerk of Parliament and his assistants is potential beef lost to this country, par­ look dignified in their present attire. I am ticularly when it will be very urgently go~ng to leave the matter to them, and I am required 24 to 30 months hence, if the war gomg to cry down the advocacy of the hon. lasts so long, to feed the fighting men and member for Baroona to some extent. civilian population, and also to help feed the people of Europe, which will be famine· We have heard a good deal about demo­ stricken when the war ends there. cracy from the other side of the Chamber but I want to know what they call demo~racy There is a big job ahead of cattlemen when they were prepared to stay here until to-day. They are handicapped very severely half-past 2 in the morning to take away the indeed by the lack of man-power. I doubt contingent vote from the people. whether there is a pastoralist to-day in t;he inland areas who ha$ a son of military age The CHAIRMAN: Order! who has not already accepted his obligation Vote (Legislative Assembly) agreed to. to serve and is in the Australian Imperial Forces or one of the other forces. The bulk DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC LANDS. of the young men ordinarily seeking work in CHIEF OFFICE. those districts-I should say 97 per cent. of them-are already in the armed forces. The The SECRETARY FOR PUBMC LANDS result is that the big pastoral areas are (Hon. E. J. Walsh, Mirani) (2.57 p.m.): I to-day being worked by old men and daug;h· move- ters of the pastoralists. That is a sufficient " That £49,682 be granted for 'Depart- handicap in itself without the increase in ment of Public Lands-Chief Office.' '' the dingo menace. The vote shows a slight decrease on last The Secretary for Public Lands: Have year's of £1,292. That is accounted for by you had any expression of opinion from the a small reduction in staff salaries and a graziers in your area whether the present decrease of £625 in ''Contingencies.'' system of control is working satisfactorily~ Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (2.58 p.m.) : 1\'Ir. MAHER: I am not prepared to I want to touch briefly on one phase of the argue that the present intricacies of control administration of the Department of Public are responsible, but judging by the results Lands. It relates to the increasing menace the dingoes are not being coped with. That ~o land?old~rs of the wild dog. The dingo is is a plain statement of fact. I notice the mcreasmg m every part of the State mostly United Graziers' Association have been giving in the pastoral areas. This, of cdurse, is attention to this matter, and the executive of u;:tderstandable, because many packs of that body decided recently on a uniform bonus dmgoes roam over these districts and neces­ of 10s. a dog, which was to be raised by way sarily they increase from year to year. In of a levy, if I understand eorrectly, upon pre-war times a big body of men engaged in the stockowners. Every owner of cattle, the occupation of dogging-trapping and sheep, and horses would pay the levy, with a poisoning and so helping to keep these partial exemption for sheepmen who have dingoes in check. With the war has of course gone to the expense of dog-netting their come the enlistment of tens of thousands of areas, with the qualification that such dog· young men from the pastoral districts, and netting must be proved to be effective. All the resultant shortage of man-power to-day I want to say is a 10s. bonus is not sufficient. in all the pastoral areas makes it impossible If we a:re going to attract men to destroy to cope with the increase in the dingo popu­ the dingo, at least an appropriate amount lation. As a result, there is a grave loss of must be paid to the trapper or poisoner. 688 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Years ago, when the prices of wool, cattle, I urge that policy on the Minister. It is and mutton were much less than they are highly important to maintain the cattle popu­ to-day, and when wages were very much lower lation which are the source of great wealth than they are to-day, £1 a ~ead was paid to to the State. It is also highly important that trappers for each dingo, and to-day, with the sheep population be maintained. Sheep better prices ruling in the pastoral industry, and cattle represent a very large proportion with higher wages being paid throughout the indeed of the total primary wealth produced rural districts, we are trying to get the dingo in Queensland. We look for causes that down with 5s. a head subsidy to the dog reduce the numbers of sheep or cattle and trapper. if we find dingoes are a potent cause-they are responsible for the destruction of tens Mr. Devries: It is very difficult to get of thousands of calves, a great number of trappers to-day. lambs, and even of sheep throughout Queens­ laud-it is the duty of the State to recognise Mr. lUAHER: It is very difficult to get its obligations to help an industry that helps them. We shall never get them with the itself. If the stockowners of the State will paltry rate of 5s. for each scalp; it must be levy themselves to the tune of 10s. for each at least £1. My knowledge and experience dog I ask the Minister to subsidise the stock­ QVer a long period of years in the West owners in a like sum and make £1 a scalp suggest that to me. the minimum bonus in order to attract daggers and trappers to go after the dingo. The Secretary for Public Lands: The I realise that under war-time conditions it local authorities have that power. will be extraordinarily difficult to find men to undertake this work, but if the attraction is lUr. MAHER: Assuming they have, it there the stockmen and station hands who are is not exercised; moreover, there is no uni­ on stations and selections to-day, and perhaps formity throughout the State. One local the children of selectors and the young fellows authority can make it 5s., another local in the towns in the pastoral areas will, with authority can make it 10s. the prospect of earning £1 a scalp, become keen to run the dingo down and so much Tlle Secretary for Public Lands: And good work could be achieved. ·one may make it none at all. Mr. Devries: Do you mean run them lUr. lliAHER: Some could make it none down on horseback~ at all. In one part of Southern Queensland the local authority was paying 5s. a scalp Mr. MAHER: No-to poison or trap for foxes, and men were bringing scalps from them, kill them and bring in the scalps. Of across the border in New South Wales-where course, it is not impossible to run a dingo no value was placed on them-and passing down on horseback. It has been done time them off as having been taken in the area of and again, and if the hon. member wants a that local authority, and the ratepayers of little sport full of zest I recommend him to the shire were being swindled out of a large have a fast gallop across the plains circling sum of money. The scalps did not come from a dingo and, with the stirrup iron in his their area, but hundreds of pounds ·were being hand, make the kill. But that was not the paid out for fox scalps from across the border. means that I was proposing, but trapping We have to deal fairly with the men who go and by poisoning. Even with the limitation Dnt and trap or poison dingoes. Some people of man-power much labour could be got if may think it is an easy job. I know one man, my suggestion was adopted because with £1 Charlie Benson, of Goondiwindi, who has a a scalp as the prize m·any man would work very effective lure to catch dingoes. I under­ on Saturday afternoon or Sunday to augment stand he offered this lure to the department their other incomes, and by this means a a few years ago for a nominal sum of large army would be mobilised to pursue the money, the formula to be made available to dingo. I think that is the only practical stockow11ers throughout the State, and the solution of the problem. I think that department rejected the offer. I have seen rrothing worth while can be done if the Mr. Benson-and so have other stockowners reward is less than £1 a scalp. -in action, and there is no don bt he has an excellent lure which attracts the dingo so that Mr. lliULLER (Fassifern) (3.14 p.m.): he is able to trap him. Mr. Benson earns This is a very important vote and the matter good money. Men to-day pay anything from referred to by the hon. member for West £5 to £25 to get rid of a dog that is causing :Moreton is also important, but I propose to them trouble inside a dog-netting area. That refer to something which, in my opinion, is is a heavy impost on them, yet no sheepowner much more important-the erosion of our will balk at paying it. That is a pretty heavy soil. We talk of the depredations of pests price to pay for one dog. I think the matter and other things, but our soils are being should be more systematically tackled, and gravely diminished. The officers of the we should have an agreement between stock­ Sub-Department of Irrigation and Water owners on the one hand and the Government Supply have told ns frequently that there is on the other, and have a uniform set of pay­ a gradual diminution of our artesian water. ments throughout the State. It should not That is a very serious matter but perhaps it be leiss than £1, and if the stockowners are is still more serious that our soils are rapidly willing to levy on themselves 10s. for each diminishing. During the past few weeks dog destroyed, I think the State should subsi­ there has been much talk of the shortage of dise the fund so raised with a like sum. meat supplies, but when we take stock of the Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 689 position we find that the cattle population the experts and professors of the depart­ has decreased in the past 10 years by approxi­ ment we are told that further research will mately 1,000,000 head. Parliament should require a deal of money. This is certainly devote some time to the consideration of a the Government's responsibility, and it is time problem of this kind. What is it due to~ a body of experts was appointed to make Is it due to neglect on the part of the land­ further investigations and advise and direct holders~ Is it due to the tenure under the holders of land as to how they should which the land is held~ In my opinion, it is endeavour to preserve the pastures they have. due very largely to the depreciation of our We have a number of valuable natural pastures, and nothing is being done either grasses in Queensland, but I am afraid many to build them up or to preserve what we people do not realise their nutritive value already have. and that in their ignorance they have done I am greatly concerned about this matter, things that have meant almost the entire because I believe that the landholder of elimination of certain varieties. It is only to-day has enough interest in his stock to rarely that one sees many of them to-day. try to carry as many as he can and to fatten 'l'hese grasses should be preserved, and if them as quickly as possible, but despite all something could be done to feed and improve this, we see that the cattle population is these pastures a great service will have been decreasing. In a State like Queensland, especi­ rendered to the industry. It certainly gives ally with large areas of land reclaimed from us food for thought to find that despite the the prickly-pear, our cattle population should additional areas reclaimed from prickly-pear, be increasing instead of decreasing. I can­ our cattle population has fallen by some­ not help feeling that this is largely the respon­ thing like 17 per cent. in 10 years. In the sibility of the department over which the face of this evidence, we must admit that the Minister presides, and at least an effort should time has arrived when the Minister will be made this year to grapple with the require to look very closely into the fertility problem. During the l)ast 20 years we have of our pastoral and agricultural lands. heard much talk about pasture improvement Of course the subject of soil erosion enters and soil conservation, but virtually nothing into the m~tter and that will have to be has been done. We have heard many plausible tackled very soon. One cannot travel round speeches in this Chamber, but the time has the country, especially in agricultural di~­ arrived when we have to take stock of the tricts without observing the damage that IS position. being' done by way of• soil erosion. Is it possible that our pastures are depre­ There is another matter I should like to ciating because some lands are held under mention briefly again, one that I have touched leasehold tenure~ We all know the attitude of upon several times in this Chamber, and that some tenants, who will flog the land to death is the need to set aside a sum of money for and overstock it with the result that the wind water conservation and irrigation. I have carries the finer soil away and rain washes frequently complained about the small sums away some more. These men adopt an atti­ set aside for that purpose in Queensland. Are tude of: ''This will serve me as long as we to go on for all time feeling that we can my tenure lasts and after that the Govern­ live in a State like Queensland without some ment or whoever is responsible can do what form of water conservation~ Each time I they like.'' mention the subject someone has the audacity 'l'lle Secretary for Public Lands: That to interject that I am trying to further a is done on freehold tenures, too. local scheme or something like that, but nothing is further from my mind. During lUr. I\IULLER: Perhaps it is, but only the past few weeks I had the opportunity of a few days ago the Minister told me by way visiting some of the inigation and water­ of interjection that about 92 per cent. of conservation schemes in New South Wales and the land tenures of this State were leasehold. Victoria, and I was struck by the way in That being so, and if some of the damage is which they have been financed. On every being done by the freeholders, it sim11ly means occasion I, have spoken about such schemes in that the Minister's department has to accept this Chamber I was told that it was a matter responsibility for at least 92 per cent. of it. for the local authorities or the people them­ I do not wish to condemn the leasehold selves and not one for the Govcmment, hut system outright, because I realise that under in the South the Government have accepted present conditions one is obliged to accept a the responsibility. In the case of the Yarra­ leasehold tenure, taxation on freehold land wonga weir and the Hume weir, the whole being very high, but is it in the best of the money was found by the Governments interests of the State and of the pastoral and the people were chrrrged for the water and agricultural industries to continue this they used. That is the sort of scheme I have leasehold system~ If it is responsible for the advocated for Queensland and I believe it fall in the fertility of our soils, it is high is the only scheme that is likely to be estab­ time the Government took action. My main lished here. complaint is that the Government are doing The Secretal'Y for Public Lands: Which nothing to retain the fertility of soils. I means that ultimately the cost is passed on admit that in order to do this a great deal to the general taxpayer. of money will need to be spent and that much more scientific research will have to be done, 1\ir. MULLER: No, that is a short-sighted although we do know that the C.S.I.R. has view to take. Some of us do not like to go been investigating the problem for years. too deeply into the benefits of water conser­ Every time we discuss the matter with I"Rtion. The peo:;>le who use the water for 690 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. irrigation do not actually make a fortune but made now so that when our soldiers are demo­ they render a service to the State in pro­ bilised we shall be able to get on with the job. viding it with its necessary food supplies. We must, therefore, indulge in some forward We take a serious risk in Queensland in that planning. Parliament must provide now for we may find ourselves without any food at this planning so that we can tell the people all. We do not know what erratic seasons when the war is over that we are ready to may do for us. If the Government are proceed with the work and not that it will going to ask the people or a local body, or a be proceeded with at some future time. I water trust, or whatever you like to call them, suggest that the Minister set aside a number to accept the responsibility of establishing of engineers and practical men to do this such a scheme, it will never be done. I planning. If that policy is adopted, we shall repeat that-it will never be done. It cannot be making provision for the better use of our be done because the farmers in the district soils. could not accept the financial responsibility Much has been said as to what will happen for establishing such a scheme as that. That in post-war days. I believe that we shall have means that we cannot have irrigation. We to look to our land for a very large propor­ could never have had irrigation in any part tion of our revenue. Fortunately, although of Australia if we expected the people in the we have a great deal of inferior land, we have district to establish such schemes. These large areas of fertile land and it is our schemes in the Southern States are financed bounden duty to make better use of it. What by the Governments-State and Common­ is the use of trying to maintain our present wealth. Water is conserved, weirs are built, population if we are not in a position to feed resumptions are made and paid for, and the it~ Secondary industries will have to be water provided. The water is a national established and extended, but we shall require asset. It is reticulated through watercoutses to produce food to feed those engaged in or channels or by other means. The point them. We hear it said on all hands that we is that the people are charged for the water must double our population for security pur­ they use. I do not suggest that they would poses, but if we had twice as many people as be able to repay the total cost of the scheme. we have at present we should not be able to None of such schemes has ever been paid for feed them. I believe we shall have to have in that way, nor is any likely to be. The 20,000,000 people if we expect to hold this people are allowed to use the water and the country, and when making provision for popu­ stuff that they grow is for the benefit of the lating this country after the war we shall community. If we are going to rely on the also have to produce the wherewithal to feed farmers in certain areas to establish such them. schemes, nothing will be done. Every time I mention the matter the reply invariably is, I make a similar speech on this vote almost "What are the farmers doing in the matter every year. I feel we cannot allow another of irrigation~'' I believe that the subject year to slip by without emphasising these of water conservation and irrigation ought things. We, as an Opposition, are here to to be given priority No. 1 in our plan for criticise in a constructive way. I hope, there­ post-war reconstruction, because it is head fore, that members of the Cabinet will take and shoulders over all the other schemes in stock of the position and consider these the matter of importance. It is the only way problems from the point of view I have sug­ in which we can make Queensland safe for gested. I am sure that the result will be white people. I have said in the past that that more money will be granted for water whereas some districts have an annual rainfall conservation and irrigation to provide, firstly, of 35 inches, sometimes 20 inches falls in one work for our demobilised servicemen, and, month and there is no rain for the rest of secondly, food for the people. the year, or virtually none. Something must be done about it, as every public-spirited man The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS agrees. The Government are interested in (Hon. E. J. Walsh, Mirani) (3.30 p.m.): The post-war work and means of providing post­ hon. member for West Moreton raised a ques­ war employment, and so. I suggest that these tion that is of considerable importance to the s~hemes should be taken up in all seriousness. grazing areas-that is, the dingo menace. It If we ca11 set aside a sum of money for this has been a serious problem for many years purpose we shall be able to supply work and past. The Government, in 1936, as part of wages for thousands of men. We can use their policy, brought down comprehensive our own material and at the same time create legislation in an attempt to deal more effec­ a national asset. We shall provide our much­ tively with the dingo pest and other pests needed water supply and grow our food as we in rural areas. Strange to say, the biggest require it. clamour against the Government's under­ taking that control on a national basis came Th~s is pr.obably. one of the most important from many of those areas themselves, with questwns tlus Parhament can deal with. The the result, of course, that the powers we war n;ay ~ome to a s~dden end-I sincerely expected to be administered on a State-wide hope 1t iVlll and I beheve it will-and some­ basis, under the supervision of the Department thing ;vill have to be done to provide for the of Public Lands, eventually went back into ret~rmng men. The Sub-Department of Irri­ the hands of local authorities or district gatiOn and Water Supply vote this year is improvement boards, as the case might be. even smaller than last year. That is an indi­ cation that almost no preparatory work is During the last 12 months I have given being done, otherwise more money would be some attention to this question because, apart allocated for the purpose. Our plans respect­ from the usual nonsense we hear from manv ing irrigation and water supply should be of the associations connected with pastoral Supply. (5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 691 interests, individual selectors write to me and most of the western areas are under the have approached me personally giving me Stock Routes Improvement and Animal and their Yiews on this important question, and Vegetable Pests Destruction Acts, and the they do not agree with many of the things coast areas are under what is known as the that have been said by the associations. I Local Authority (Grazing Districts Improve­ would ]JOint out that the powers to control ment) Act administered by the Sub-Depart­ the dingo pest delegated under the Act of ment of Loerrl Government. Some of the coast 1936 to the local authorities are complete. areas did not see fit to fix the bonus to be They haYe power to make any assessment on paid for the destruction of dingoes. lt is stock within their areas, they haYe power to coming to a pretty pass if after this Pm·lia­ employ trappers or poisoners, as the case may ment has given the necessary powers to appro­ be, and they have power to call on the land­ priate bodies they fail to exercise them. \V e owners to take effective measures to deotroy talk about these people having autonomy, dingoes on their properties. If these do not the right to control their own affairs in their satisfy the local authority, that body has own districts. The argumcn ts used here power to put in employees on those prope·ties to-day-which are more or less confirmed by to can-v out the work. The local authoriti~s numerous communications that I have had have n\e power of assessment on stock gcnel·­ from interested selectors-is that we should ally to supply tl1em with the neccssar;· take the matter out of the hands of the local revenue. It is also within their power to authorities. I am not prepared to recom­ detennine the amount of bonus that might ]y; mend that to the GoYenunent i1t this sbge, but granted. You will, therefore, see, Mr. Bras­ I have to say quite candidly the present sington, that there is ample power under the method of control is undergoing very close Act to-day to enable local authorities to exer­ scrutiny, hceause if the Governmc!lt rrre going cise the supervision the various grazing a se o­ to be contiEnally a:::ked for subsidies fr01n ciations say is neecssary. consdida tec1 J-c,·emle we \•:an t to see that :For some years past the Government haYe that money is spent in such a \Ya:· as to brcn gh-ing a subsidy-limited, it is rnovic1e for effective desb-uction of the pest. admitted. Last year I had to ask the Trea­ At the moment all I c:m say to the hon. member for \Yest ~~Ioreton is tl;at tlle depart­ surer fo1• an amount from consolidated reYenuc since the fund from ·which \Ye have ment ,._.m continue to do its best. been paying bonuses ov-er the years was I might that \Y8 baYG fOl' ~01118 Yf':l.:!.'S depleted. I had to ask the Treasurer for p::s-::. jn to the l>omn aml snl;sidv. £L500 to make up the clcfiicit for that year, tlH• 1oca1 a-~tlFn·itir-; t] ~~t llaYe askCd and foT thi3 YC::Il' I h;;._Yc ~-:.~~keel for £7,000- with lJ~Jison bn:.s runnln;;; into n1~n1.Y odd to meet fhc GoYenmtcl1t 's obligations in hundn_c1s of thou<: U11(1S. rrhev arc sent connection with that subsic1y. That might free of cost to the local ~l;thorih :Jllll continue for a brief period, but the Govern­ they in tmn are expected to supp.ly the ment cannot be expected to continue this selectors with these baits iree of cost. A svstcm of subsidising dingo and other pest selector who came from the north-west aren destruction if the people concemcd-the autho­ told me he w~s being charged by the local rities that have the power-do not eYen exer­ authority for those baih. S() you see, although cise those powers. I quite agree with every­ the department sets out to help the selector thing the hon. member for \Vest l'lloreton has apparently the local authority, instear1 of said about the menace and I agree that bein,:; willing to exercise its powers of assess­ something has to be done to control it; and ment of stor·k to raise the necess:.1ry revenue, I mn at present examining the position to see seeks to make a few pounds od of the baits whet!Jer some different form of supen·ision supplierl to them free of cost. shall not be exercised in the future. JUr, ThinlH•r: I think I was charged by The hon. member for ·west J'vfOTeton quoted your department. from a letter from the United Graziers' Associatio11. I might say that I instructed Tlle SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~mS: the department to circularise all the associa­ The hon. member would be chaTged .5s. a tions that have interests connected with C'lse_ if he asks for a small qn:mtity, but grazing. gettmg them through the local authorit;· he would not be expected to pay. If the depart­ Mr. ::\.Taller: I did not have a letter from ment supplies the local authority free it them. expects the local authoTit;r to do likewise. If the hon. mcmbeT a cks the department for The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: one or two ca',es, there is a certain amount ·whatever the hon. member quoted, it is o£ cost of tTtmsport that has to be considered. f'imilnr to the communication they sent to me in response to my invitation to communicate The otheT matter raised by the hon. membeT to me what measures thev thouaht should be for Fassifern in rq·:u-d to the depreciation taken for a more comp.lete c~ntrol of the of pastures genernlly is an important one, c1ingo pest. All I have received up to the Dnd opens up a very wide snbject that I am present is a suggestion that there should be not prepaTed to elaborate extensiyely on at :1 uniform bonus. That is in the hands of this stage. the local rruthorities themselves. I have had, I agree with the hon. member for Fassi­ in response to communications from indivi­ fern, and to meet that position we should dual selectors, to write to several local have to take some yerv radical measures of authorities operating as district improvement control of land generally. Personally 1 boards. I might explain for the benefit of think that the idea is fostered amongst tl10se lwn. members who are not aware of it that who haYe been associated with land that they 692 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. have the right to use the land even to the in relation to land a few weeks ago, put for­ point of destroying it as an asset, as it were, ward the pwposal that any m'an who developed in any way they like. We have to dispel that a property and sold it as a going concern, idea. It will be remembered that last year was entitled to some consideration for his we brought down to Parliament and had work, apart from the improvements. That passed a Bill that received the support of is agreed, it has never been disputed, but it hon. members opposite, and provided for the often goes far beyond a reasonable thing. control of the destruction of timber on land Another p'Oint is that the Government­ held under all classes of tenure, freehold or irrespective of their politics-have determined leasehold. That is but one step towards the as a matter of policy what concession shall goal. There are many other measures that be given to men in the various land indus­ will have to be considered if we are to pre­ tries because of depression, low prices, vent the soil erosion that has been evident in drought, and other factors. It would be other States and other parts of the world. reasonable if we also took into consideration The hon. member for West More ton made a the measure of control that should be required particularly good contribution to the de?ate to see that they do not get into a more in this Committee last year on that subJect, difficult financial position than they were in but I expect opposition even from the hon. bef.:>re the' concession was granted. member for Fassifern immediately the Gov­ May I give a few pertinent examples of ernment come down with proposals after due how this can apply to many of our leasehold investigation and consideration of the tenures as against freehold; particularly measures that may be required. It is true remembering that the cost of any one of that one of the most serious evils in our these concessions falls on the consumer. It pastoral areas is overstocking, but that is falls not so much on the taxpayer as on the only one. Another is the over-capitalisation general consumer, as it may be reflected in of much of the land. Whether it be freehold the price of the commodity he has to buy. or leasehold it makes no difference. A man The first is a small selection of 508 acres, going on the land with a tremendous financial the capital value of which was fixed by the burden round his neck is not in a position to Land Court at 86s. an acre. It was part of cultivate and nurse his land as he would have an estate that was repurchased many years to do to retain it at the pitch of fertility at ago, and in determining the capital value the which it would be a benefit to the country court necessarily took into consideration the for many years to come. As an example 'Of amount of compensation that was paid by the overstocking, I might tell the Committee that then Government prior to 1915. In 1932, on I remem'ber going to a property in the North­ the return of this Government, and after West six or seven years ago. The lessee examining these tenures, it was thought that had a very good sheep property and was some consideration might be given to the posi­ shearing about 4,000 sheep. He explained to tion of the lessee and the capital value was me that not many years previously he had reduced to 32s. 6d. an acre, a rental conces­ shorn 40,000 sheep on that property. Much sion of £19 per annum. In other words, the of his area was as bare and as black as a cost of that concession was transferred to bitumen roadway. Vegetation of all kinds consolidated revenue and the taxpayers would had been removed by a continu'Ous drought make up that deficiency. J<"our years later, the and overstocking. He candidly admitted that Government having already said that this man he had gambled and had bought a large should be given this relief to enable him to number of sheep, but that a drought had make a success, we find him transferring his occurred and, of course, he had suffered. property for a consideration of £2,162 6s. At Numerous lessees come to me to discuss their that stage the improved value of the property problems, and when I ask what stock they was only £275, yet the goodwill value is shown carry, I find that many of the~ carry dou_ble at £1,887 6s., or the equivalent of £3 14s. 2d. the number the department indicates as bemg an acre. That means that the new selector's the pr'Oper carrying capacity. For example, position is going to be more difficult than a m:an may be assessed on land as capable of that of the original selector to whom the carrying 3,000 sheep and. hi~ rent fix~d Government gave relief, because if we add the accordingly, but on investigation one will consideration of £3 14s. 2d. to 32s. 6d. the probably find that he has double that num­ capital value is brought up to £5 6s. an acre­ ber or even more. Admittedly, there are a £1 an acre higher than it was for the lessee number of sensible people who realise the to whom the Government gave relief. danger of overstocking and keep their pro­ pertie& in good order by limiting themselves Mr. Muller: The weakness of leasehold to the correct number, and over the years tenure! they have shown they have been able to derive The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: a benefit from that policy, as against the No the hon. member cannot have it that way. other man who continually overstocks and I ~ight say that there is a weakness in the when a drought occurs is faced with the position somewhere, in that we do not exer­ danger of losing aJl. cise enough control over our lands generally. B1,t there is a more interesting angle of That is not an isolated case. I can cite the problem than that I wish to explain. I hundreds of similar instances, and I want to have stated before in this Chamber that many assure hon. members that I did not just go of our lands are over-capitalised. I think fishing for particular cases. The instructions that is one of the greatest burdens that our I gave were to go down to the numerous land men have generally. The hon. member files, pull out from the shelf, as it were, files for 'Sest Moreton, in discussing the matter from given districts-such as Dalby and Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 693

Rockhampton-and examine the transactions Perhaps I should mention one or two more on those files. This is what has been revealed. properties that may be of interest to hon. I come now to another property that has members. The next has an area of 1,271 just been brought under my notice. The acres, the capital value of which is 5s. an area is 16,362 acres. The rent for the first acre. For the first two years no rent is pay­ 14 years is Hd. an acre, £102 5s. 5d. a year. able, and for the next 30 years it is £4 15s. 5d. In August, 1936, this property was trans­ per annum. The total rent paid for the next ferred for a total of £4,000, the lease bring­ 30 years is £4 15s. 5d. per annum. This pro­ ing £900. In 1938, only two years later, the perty was transferred in 1940 for a considera­ property was sold for £16,362, and the lease tion of £3,813, of which amount the lease attracted £10,225 as against £900 two years attracted £2,779 18s. 9d. The improvements earlier. The new people, of course, have to were worth only £1,033. The consideration meet not only the commitments undertaken was equal to 43s. 9d. an acre, while the but also the interest on the goodwill value, capital value on which the Crown was receiv­ which is an enormous sum. The result is ing rent was only equal to 5s. an acre. that the revenue earned from the industry Here is one more. It has an area of 15,480 is not enough, after meeting all these com­ acres; total rent, £24 3s. 9d. Some time in mitments, to permit of their nursing the land 1941 permission to subdivide was approved, in such a way as to keep in in a proper and an area of 7,313 acres was excised from state of fertility. the original area. The rent on the 7,313 acres I come now to another tenure, a pastoral was £11 Ss. 7d. per annum. Approximately 12 holding of 119 square miles. The rent received months after approval to subdivide was given by the Crown is 18s. a square mile, £107 per there was a transfer for a eonsidera tion of annum. In 1940 it was sold for £10,746, of £6,127, of which the lease attracted £4,6.32. which the lease attracted £7,018, or £58 10s. a These are some of the things that I should square mile. I emphasise that the Crown is like hon. members to give attention to in getting only 18s. a square mile and there is a discussing these matters. In this Chamber goodwill value of £58 10s. a square mile. there is the habit of pointing out the obliga­ Mr. Yeates: Is that under stock? tions of the Government to the man on the land, but there are quite a few occasions on The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: which I could refer to the obligation of the The stock is not included in this at all. The man on the land to the community. We do value of improvements is £3,728 and the value not want to get into the habit, as I believe of the lease is £7,018. we might do, of trying to indicate that this Take a further example: a preferential pas­ section or that section should live entirely on toral holding of 16 square miles, the rental the community. My view is that we should of which is 13s. 4d. a square mile or examine that phase of the matter to see how £10 13s. 4d. per annum for 20 years. we can relieve the man on the land of his There was no variation of rent for that burden of over-capitalisation. That has beeu period. On 24 March, 1939, the property was done for a considerable number of years in sold for £8,530, of which the lease attracted connection with sugar land and has prove& £4,968-£310 a square mile. The improve­ very effective. It has not been done by any ments were worth £2,200, the stock £1,362, legislative enactment, but more by way of and the lease is worth £4,000 olld. Yet hon. administrative action. members opposite will say that leaseholds I do not propose to say very much at this have not the same value as freeholds. There stage about irrigation, but I want to say, in i~ more exploitation-as I have said in this Chamber before--in leaseholds than there is reply to the hon. member for Fassifern, that with freehold tenure. if he will peruse the various Estimates and proposals brought down to this Chamber, he Let me quote a few more eases. The next is a property of 5,148 acres, with a capital will see that the amounts set out in the vote value of 3s. 4d. an acre. For the first five for the Sub-Department of Irrigation and years no rent is payable. From the sixth Water Supply do not represent the fun amount year up to the twentieth year the amount pay­ allotted by the Government for irrigation pro­ able is £12 7s. 5d. per annum, on 5,148 acres. jects generally. The consideration for the transfer was £4,500, About 84 proposals have been submitted of ,,-hich the lease attracted £3,217. The through the Premier to the Commonwealth improvements were valued at £1,283. authorities for consideration in connection Here is another pastoral holding. It had with post-war work. The hon. member will an area of 80 square miles, and the rent is realise that the Sub-Department of Irrigation £1 6s. 8d. a square mile, or £106 13s. 4d. a and Water Supply has never been overburdened year, for the first ten years. On 29 October, with a considerable technical staff. Engineers 1941, the property was transferred for £2,600, trained in that class of work are not numerous of which the lease attracted £2,200; the in this State, but the staff has done much improvements on the property were worth preparatory work that will be ·very useful only £400. These are some of the things we to the Government in their post-war planning. must examine in pursuance of our policy of I can assure hon. members that there are preserving the fertility of the land. As I many projects, involving considerable expen­ have indicated earlier. the purchasers of these diture, many of which if the . war stopped properties are not in a position to apply any to-morrow and the necessary organisation and part of the income to preserving their man-power were released we could stari: improvements or preserving the land. within a month. 694 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (3.58 over what is almost level country; a surveyor p.m.) : Successful land settlement is the key­ could easily arrange the drains to suit it. note of the progress of any country, parti­ The settlement of that country would increase cularly of Queensland. 'Ne have a tremendous the sheep population by 2,000,000. There is area consisting of all kinds of soil. It is a certain amount of 1vire netting there now. able to grow anything from sugar to sheep It could be fenced in and each selector would and cattle. The vote has been reduced by pay his share. I notice by the report that £9,000. I am not complaining about that as the department has supplied a certain amount members of the staff have, no doubt, of wire netting; £640 is provided this year, enlisted and not the same amount of land is but that is not the fault of the department being opened up for settlement while the because netting is not available. A sum of soldier boys aTe away as before. The Govern­ £356,000 has been paid back by instalments ment are to be commended on that policy. for netting supplied by this and previous The Land Administration Board does good Governments away back in the early days. I work and natmally helps the Minister to i1 think some of the netting was sent out in great degree aml for that reason the Minister 11'93; I saw it going through Charleville then. to-day, and for many years past, including At 4.5 p.m., 1929-32, has not had the responsibility Ministers of years ago carried. As I have Mr. DUNSTAN (Gympie) relieved the said before and will say again, this board is Chairman in the chair. working along sound lines. The Minister takes a keen interest in his work. He ::tir. YEATES: I want to impress upon follows it up well and is attentive. He the department the importance of repur­ ought to be, of course, but there are some chasing some of the leaseholds. Take a line 1vho are not. from Yuleba to Thallon and along the boundary of New South \Vales to Gooncliwindi Speaking of land settlement and having in and then back to about Dalby and repur­ view land that will be opened for closer chase some of the leaseholds. Supposing the settlement in the near future, my mind is 1Yar is over by June, 1945-that is roughly drawn particularly to the aTe a from my estimate, although I do not know murh Hughenden, Winton, Muttaburra, and Long­ about it; that is Churchill's job-we must be reach across to Barealcline. Here 2,250,000 ready by that time. Do not worry about acres, roughly speaking, ·will be falling clue giYing a few pounds to the man who owns it. within the next five years. This is a wonder­ You haye the Sugar Acquisition Act, that has ful territory. The hon. member for Gregory been used for some a1vful purposes in the knows the 1vhole of it. In fact, the whole past, so let us use it for something that is of the country from Augathella to Mutta­ rea

Mr. YEATES: I will go on with the needed. However, that is another matter, and story. The hon. gentleman can get up and I shall deal with that later. rebut it. The prickly-pear is almost a thing of the The Secretary for Public Lands: I drew pa_st,. thanks to the sc~entific work done by your attention to it in this Chamber. brmgmg the cactoblastrs from Mexico. Hon. Mr. YEATES: The Jondaryan Shire members may not be aware that at Colum­ boola, on the Western line, there is a public Council~ I protested against the ring barking of the box trees on the stock routes immedi­ hall erected in memory of the cactoblastis, ately west of Bowenville towards Dalby. The the people there being so pleased about the stock route, half a mile wide approximately, job it had done. I have heard the Minister is to-day all dead trees. I might say I was in charge of the department-not this looking over them for a firewood supply for Minister, although he may have made a Toowoomba. Of course, I did not want them similar remark when I was not there-speak­ ringbarked, but now that they are dead that ing to a multitude of people on the Western was one way of getting rid of them. This line saying, ''See what we did. We cleared ringbarking was a shocking thing. The the land of pear from Dalby to St. George Jondaryan Shire Council said that the Depart­ and across to Bungeworgorai. '' That is non­ ment of Public Lands had instructed that sense. The hon. member for Maranoa is it should be done because of some tiger pear, present and knows perl'ectly well that the which was harmless there. I could have gone Minister was not telling the truth. He was out one week-end and chopped out every bit electioneering, as it were. This is window­ of it. The present Minister states that he did dressing time, and we must be careful it is not do so. I do not say that he did, but not clone again. whoever was Secretary for Public Lands in The dingo menace is a very important or about the year 1936 allowed it. The problem. members of the Land Administration Board are sensible men. They do good work. I lUr. Riordan: You want to be very care­ can never understand why that authority went ful of that. out. Either the Minister is telling us the I notice from the report that subsidies at story incorrectly-! do not say wilfully-or the maximum rate of 2s. 6d. a head were the J ondaryan Shire Council is telling me g~ven to local authorities for killing 20,807 what is not correct. The matter may seem wrld dogs. The _department is doing its best trivial but it is worth mentioning. I might to get . strychnme and supply it to the mention that Mr. Kemp, the Commissioner of pastoralists and selectors-and here I Main Roads, is having trees planted along emphasise that I am not representing only the Great Western Highway, and quite the bloated company with a head offico in properly so. The trees I have mentioned some other country, I am here representing have all died and it is a shocking thing. I all. the selectors who were either bullof\k­ ask the Minister to make further inquiries, clnvers or worked on the roads for a while as I am not at all satisfied. saved a; few pounds and then took up small The Secretary for Public Lantls: I drew :properties, and I am looking after their your attention to it here two years ago. mterests as much as the Minister is. The clepar~r;rent was n?t able to get large Mr. YEATES: I am not at all satisfied. If the Minister will tell me it was the quantitres of strychnme-only H cwt.-but it responsibility of the Jondaryan Shire Council did its hest and that is all we can expect of anyone. then I am not finished with that body. I do not own any land near it, but it was a The hon. member for Fassifern mentioned shocking thing to do when we want trees the important matter of soil erosion. I had to be grown. a letter from Mr. Frank Prentice of South­ Last year the Government brought down brook, who wants a tractor. He does not machinery amendments regarding rents. The want the Government to give it to him or Minister is over-riding the Land Court which lend it to him. He is a self-reliant man a·s is not at all a proper thing to do. He is are many others not,,·ithstanding what the telling the Land Court certain things about Minister has sa:id at times about the settlers pastoral and grazing lands. That is the job of Queensland. Mr. Prentice 's property is of the Land Court and if the members are on the slopes of Hodgson 's Creek and runs not fit to do their job the best thing is for back to a ridge. It is sloping country and them to resign. Of course, I am not saying soil has been washed away. Of course they are not fit to do the job, but if the I realise that this is taking place away out Minister thinks they are not fit to do it he at the back of New South Wales and in should say so and bring a report to Parlia­ many pastoral as well as agricultural areas. ment on the same lines as is provided for by It certainly will present an immense problem the Audit Act for the Auditor-General by for the future. I sent Mr. Prentice's letter a petition to-I was about to say both H~uses to the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock of Parliament. I do not say that Labour did who is going to do his best to have the neces~ such a wonderful thing in wiping out the sary machinery released so that Mr. Prentice Upper House. may be able to buy it. The Secretary for Public Lands: Surely Of course, I know that the Minister's you do not mean that~ statement about overstocking country is true not only of the large holdings, but also of ltlr. YEATES: There was a time here the small holdings-grazing areas and dairy­ at 2.30 one _morning, when it was badly ing farms. I appreciate the fact that the 696 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

ma·n on the land says it is quite easy for cannot think in that big way. The entire arm-chair critics, editors, and parliamen­ vote for the department is only £33,000-a tarians to tell them what to do, but I do lousy £33,000. For instance, if I had charge know that overBtocking does take place, and of the administration it would have the country was not intended for that. £33,000,000 for irrigation and another £10,000,000 for reforestation. Of course, the Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (4.20 Government cannot do that. Why~ I have p.m.): The Minister replied to the hon. already pointed out that their legislation has member for Fassifern and the hon. member been framed along lines submitted by Tory for West Moreton to the best of his Governments. ability; in other words you cannot get better legislation than the Government in The Secretary for Public Lands: I power are capable of framing. For argu­ thought you were going to say the inter­ ment's sake, recently the Secretary for Public national Jews. Instruction said that the Queensland railways Mr. J. F. BARNES: The international compared with nothing in the world. finance Jews, now that the hon. gentleman The Secre·tary for Public Instruction: brings the matter up. They point out that I did not say anything of the so1·t. That is the aristocracy of the goyim as a political a deliberate lie, and you know it. force is dead.

Mr. J. F. BARNES: It is not, and I will The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! show it to the hon. gentleman in "Hansard" Mr. J. F. BARNES: But as landowners unless he had it crossed out. they can be a considerable asset to them. What does the Minister say in his speech~ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! He told us that the price of land had I ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw the gone up considerably. The international word ''lie.'' financier wants the landowner to be in a state The Secretary for Public Instruction: of embarrassment, to be in a position where I withdraw the word "lie." he must pay more and more in taxation so that he will be pushed further and further Mr. J. F. BARNES: As I was saying, off the land and have to hand over his land the argument put forward by the Minister to the financier because of his financial was the best of which he was capable. Just embarrassm'ent. The Government are doing imagine in these modern times 20,000 dingoes all in their power to bring that result about. being killed in this State last year. Look vv-hat have the other countries of the world at the number of stock they must have killed, done in the matter of reforestation~ They all because Governments of the past did not (J8n set us an example in many respects. We have the necessary foresight to pass appropri­ can copy them. If we cannot think matters ate legislation to eliminate the dingo. And out for ourselves then we can be {;opy-cats. that goes for all noxious weeds, too, including The Government mostly do that with their the type that I mentioned this morning. Why amending legislation. They have copied New cannot the Government cope with these pests~ South Wales. What is the reason~ One It should be a simple matter. Surely they would have thought that they could have know that these dogs breed and that the evolved a scheme for reforestation. They are N oogoora burr, the buffalo fly and other not capable of thinking out such a scheme in noxious weeds and pests are capable of a big way. To-day we are decidedly sho 1't increasing to an alarming extent if they are of softwood. Why are we short~ Hon. not checked! I remember the dingo was members opposite cannot blame the Tory talked about when I was a kid and last year Governments because they were in power for we killed 20,000, all because the Government only three years out of 27. The blame must are not big enough to face the issue. The be plaeEcd entirely at the door of past Labour Government can do the job properly, by the Governments. Here we are in this young use of a plank of the Labour Party's plat­ country, a country only 150 years old, with form, the first plank. If they did the job no softwood and no pine because the Govern­ correctly they could eliminate the dingo in ment had no foresight. That is why we have two or three years. Fancy 20,000 dingoes in no softwood pine in particular. 'l'hey were one year! satisfied to have a little reforestation scheme The Secretary for Public Lands: Let us here and a little one there. They have not have your solution. been able to do better because expense has worried them. If such schemes are financed Mr. J. F. BARNES: By putting people in the orthodox way it would be commercially on to do the work in the various parts of profitable. There are reforestation companies Queensland. Some of the station-owners and throughout the world that have financed their farmers have paid very big prices for the schemes in the orthodox way and have made destruction of one dingo. I know of a a success, but the Government are not capable station-owner who paid £75 for the destruc­ of thinking in a big way. tion of three dingoes. Of course, he got a Theoretically speaking, this Assembly two special trapper for the occasion at a cost of and a-half years ago irrigated the whole £75, but that station-owner was big enough of Queensland, but no irrigation project to understand that he would be recompensed has been embarked on since. Why~ I late.r on in the increased return from the admit that in the last 12 months we have young cattle that would mature because the not been able to do anything about it dingoes had been killed. The Government owing to the war, but we could have done so Supply. [ 5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 697 before that, and we did not, because the Because we have not sufficient money to eradi­ Government were not big enough to embark cate it. There is another reason. Twenty years on these jobs. They could have :financed them ago there was only one place in Queensland by orthodox :finance, w;hich would have been where carpet grass grew, but the Government better than not doing them at all. One Minis­ did not have enough money or foresight to ter said if the Government had carried out eradicate it. We are seeing the results from this work they would have increased land the same policy that is being adopted to-day. values to the owner. The Minister must In another 20 years it will be impossible to realise that if land values are increased to get rid of carpet grass, as it will then have the owner or anybody else, the country bene­ covered the w;hole of Queensland. It will be fits in the end. If the value of land can by also impossible to eradicate other noxious an irrigation project be increased from £1 to weeds, such as Noogoora burr, if they are not £50 an acre, that is an increase in the assets dealt with now. We are so small in mind of the country. It would not be worth £50 that we never think. At least, few in the an acre on the market if it did not produce Queensland Parliament think. something equivalent to that value. Whilst we are small-minded and do not engage in I would pay a compliment to those station­ irrigation and water conservation, because, owners who irrigate and grow their own as the Minister put it, that would increase fodder to fatten their own cattle. That is land values to the owner, land will remain because they are progressive. at £'1 an acre. The Secretary for Public Lands: What TI1e Secretary for Public Lands: At property have you in mind~ whose expense would you increase land values~ Mr. J. F. BARNES: I have in mind the Mr. J. F. BARNES: You can do irriga­ property of the hon. member for Aubigny. tion work by orthodox :finance, if you like, and charge the owner with all charges. It The Secretary for Public Lands: Does can be done along those lines; but I say he irrigate~ emphatically it should not be done on those Mr. J. F. BARNES: Yes, he irrigates lines, because it can be subsidised or done by 100 acres, or most of that area. national credit. If we can expend £300,000,000 of bank credit in war time, then Mr. Devries: He is right on a river we can use that amount of money in peace front. time by means of bank or national credit. Mr. J. F. BARNES: That does not The Minister told us about some thousands matter. of pounds of subsidy he had given to the dog-trappers. The ;hon. member for East Mr. Devries: Of course it does. Toowoomba said the subsidy amounted to 2s. 6d. a head. I will take his word for it. Mr. J. F. BARNES: There are other How can the Government eliminate the dingo properties with river fronts t;hat do not irri­ menace by paying a subsidy of 2s. 6d. a gate. The fact remains that the hon. member scalp~ There is only one way to get rid of for Aubigny told me that a four-year-old the dingo menace, and that is by paying a beast fattened on his irrigated land can big price for the scalp for the :first couple of produce 1,000 lb. of beef. years to encourage people to go dingo­ He has taken advantage of what God has trapping. If we pay a big price per head we given us and irrigated oats or whatever he might get rid of the dingoes in three years. may grow, to help fatten his beasts, but to It might mean an expenditure of £9,000,000, another man that would be too expensive and but if we give only 2s. 6d. a scalp, we may he would not spend the money. Under a kill only 300 dingoes. If there are at least sound Government these things could be 1,000 dingoes about each year, they will, under subsidised by national credit in such a way this policy, continue to breed and breed until that it would not over-capitalise the station. their numbers are :finally up in the air. If We could irrigate not only dairy farms but the right amount is paid for the scalp, there big areas of station land for grow· will be no dogs after three years. ing crops. If it can be done in one The Secretary for Public Lands: You case it can be done in all. If every will be able to go out as a dog-trapper after station-owner, every farmer, sugar-farmer or the next election. wheat-farmer or any other, used irrigation, what would be the position in Queensland'? lUr. J. F. BARNES: I got considerably We have the land-perhaps the best land in more money before entering Parliament than Australia-some of the best land in Australia, I am getting here. I left £3,000 a year to at any rate-but we are not taking advantage come here and try to educate the people. of it. It is not only necessary to do these (Government laughter.) That tickles hon. things but it is 11ecessary to encourage the members opposite, but they have only to look people to go out on the land. Some of the at the :files to see what my returns were. people in the far outback deserve encourage­ ment but what are the Government doing Tl1e TElUPORARY CHAIRlUAN: Order l towa;.ds encouraging them? When I speak of encouraging them I speak specifically of lUr. J. F. BARNES: Much has been said creating more comforts for them. These out­ in the past about various noxious weeds. In bAck people should have the facility of refri­ the carpet grass we have a noxious weed that gerated railway carriages in this year of is spreading all over the State. WhyW grace 1943. 698 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. Devries: They have on the main not cause erosion. That is to come. That lines. is one of the ways of eliminating some of the erosion. All these things are held up for no ltlr. J. F. llARNES: There are no other reason than money. Under orthodox refrigerated carriages on the Queensland finance that can be done and should be done, railways; there are ice carriages. but under my finance it can be done much Mr. Devries: There are refrigerated vans. more easily. Mr. J. :F, BARNES: I am pleased to lUr. DECI{ER (Sandgate) (4.38 p.m.): I hear it. recognise the importance of the department this vote represents. In it we have land Mr. Devries: They have had them for settlement-which is in itself a big thing years. indeed-forestry and irrigation, and other things affecting the land. I heard the Mr. J. F. BARNES: Is this refrigeration? Minister make some explanations and I was JUr. Devries: From Rockhampton out to surprised he did not go further, apart from Longreach. the instances he gave as examples of big profits being made in dealings in perpetual lease­ JUr. J. F. llARNES: Refrigerated goods holds. Apart from that altogether, there was carriage, not an ice carriage~ another angle that- shuuld have been men­ tioned, and that was the question raised by Mr. Devries: Refrigerated carriages. the hon. member for Fassifern in regard to Mr. J. F. BARNES: It is news to me, post-war reconstruction. but I am pleased to hear it. If they have a The Department of Public Lands will play few of them, I do not know how many. Three a very important role in the future of this years ago, when I spoke on the matter, they State. It is one of the important organisa­ did not have them but they may have got tions that should be assisting to the maximum them in the meantime. At any rate, they extent in the plans prepared for post-war should have more so that we could send crabs, reconstruction-planning the assistance that fish and oysters, and fresh fruit and vege­ will be given to returned soldiers to go on the tables in refrigerated carriages to those land. We find that no more selections are to be Western people in order to give them some of opened until after the war. When that state­ the facilities enjoyed in the town, and so ment was made it had our approval, because encourage them to stay there. we recognised then that that would play an important part in the times when peace was The Secretary for Puhlic Works: They with us once again. We look to the land as used to deliver butter from Townsville to being one of the main methods of rehabili­ Mount Isa right off the refrigerator. tating our returned soldiers, but what do we Mr. J. F. BARNES: If that is true, I find in the department itself~ Instead of the am very pleased to know about it. It is still progress that we looked forward to this time in its infancy and should be fostered further. last year and the encouragement that should be given when we are approaching nearer to The Secretary for Public Works: You the post-war period, we find the department is have to get an infant to give it a chance to spending less than ever. That would not be grow up. so serious if in the Estimates we also found a special department had been created for Mr. J. F. BARNES: I agree that every­ post-war planning. There should be a depart­ thing has its infancy, but according to the ment of investigation with its staff of time this is supposed to be in operation it advisers, surveyors, and so on busy formu­ has not spread much, during which time it lating plans of some magnitude, and the could have gone ahead. Were such things as result should be made known to the Com­ fish, crabs, and oysters carried in refrigerated mittee. This work canno.t be done with a carriages~ decreased vote and a decrease in staff. This The Secretary for Public Works: They planning should be done to the maximum, but used to send fruit, butter, and lollies for the I am afraid that a study of the Budget does youngsters. not give one the confidence that one has the right to expect from the operations of this Mr. J. F. BARNES: We should have department. refrigerated carriages to carry such things as Along with land settlement goes forestry, fish, crabs and oysters to which our Western another important section of this department, men are entitled, to provide them with some and in that field alone there is a tremendous of the comforts enjoyed by the people in the scope for post-war reconstruction, but we do towns and cities. know what is happening to our timbers. Cer­ Much has been said about erosion. The tainly we are unhappily aware that war day is coming when, in order to prevent some means waste, but what is being done with of the erosion, our roads will be built of many of our softwoods and, for that matter, cm1crete-because it is the best and cheapest hardwoodsW Apparently, the Sub-Department as far as I am concerned, with my way of of Forestry, and for that matter the Govern­ working out costs-and not only the road ment, stand idly by aiming only at supplies will be built of concrete but the whole forma­ and paying no heed to how the supplies are tion from gutter to gutter; in other words, being wasted. If that is so, that is the wrong the gutters will be built as well as the road, view to take. Certainly, when such timbers and at the same time, and they will release are needed for war purposes they must be sup­ the water from the road at a point that will plied, but when under our very noses we see Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Suppty. 699

first-class timbers being used for temporary parks for cutting timbers and I am glad the military structures, it is high time we sat up Mmister took the stand he did. and took notice. At 4.4G p.m., The Secretary for Public Lands: Where The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. have you noticed that~ lUr. DECKER: In temporary buildings li'Ir. DECKER: In our reserves there is for temporary works, such as in the Civil timber that is fairly accessible if it is care­ Constructional Corps and military camps. fully cut and taken out, and no great dam'age All over the State one will find temporary will be done to the surrounding trees, but buildings being floored with first-class hard­ that risk has to be taken because we have made wood, even by laymen, and at times with such haphazard inroads into uur available first-class pine; the walls, which are intended timbers to meet the demand, and despite this to last only a few years, are of joinery the people we are accommodating are wast­ quality. Our timbeTs are being wasted under ing it in r.:J.any cases. the system of constructing camps for military \\e could go even further than we have purposes. The work is done under the con­ done with reforestation. It is all right to tract system, the contractors being paid 4 per have reserves under State control and to have cent. on the actual cost of the job. The nmseries where seedlings are raised, but it thing i '' to get the buildings erected as is some time befurc the trees reach maturity, speedily as possible and cost does not worry and much more could be done by asking local the contractor. He is worried only as to the authorities to help. There is no reason why 4 per cent. useful timbers should not be grown on road­ sides, in council reserves, parks, and so on. The Secretary for Public Lands: Those Perhaps settlers themselves would be only too works are not undertaken by this Government. plea'sed to plant usetul timbers in parts of their areas so that later some benefit will lUr. DECKER: We find there is the accrue from the timber to either themselves greatest possible waste of first-class timbers or their families. There are many avenues it is possible to imagine, but the Government for increasing reforestation and this question as a Government interest themselves. only in must receive our earnest consideration, supplies. We must look further than supplies. especially in view of the inroads being made We must loo~ forward to the propagation of into our supplies and when we know that S'O our better timbers. I venture the opinion much would be required in post-war years. there are many classes of timber that in ordinary times would not be used for building Irrigation also is important. I do not b~t could be used in temporary buildings. think there is one hon. member in this Timbers of lesser value should be utilised in Assembly who does not realise that most of times of war and our more valuable timbers our pastoral areas in Queensland are lands preserved. It is only when this class of of drought broken by spasmodic good sea· material is not available for temporary sons. I think it is better put that way than structures that the better classes of timber to say that we have good seasons interspersed should be made available-and then only in with droughts. If we are to take water as an emergency. That emergency has not one of the principal factors in successful occurred. No effort has been made to eli­ settleaent of uur land we must admit that minate the waste taking place over the whole ours is a land of droughts interspersed with of the State, and, for that matter, I suppose good seasons. It is not to the discredit of the whole of the Commonwealth. Forestry is (,.,lueensland to put it that way for it promotes an important question, but it has had a tre­ a quicker appreciation of the need for more mendous setback because of the war. irrigation projects. Any man who depends on seasonal conditions will find land settle­ After the war we shall have to make ment hopeless. Every settler must have advances to rebuild all our forests tu the prospects of a permanent water supply. That maximum possible extent. For years we shall being so, it behov6s us to propound schemes feel the results of war, especially where the that wi!b make water available or to help ~upply of tim'bers for various purposes settlers to obtain water, which in most areas m post-war reconstruction is concerned. It can be obtained from the land itself, if the is all right to say that there are many sub· settler has enough money to sink a well or a stitutes, but after the war we shall have big bore and install the necessary pumping plant. building project~ and I fail to see why we In times of drought water means the shculd use substitutes for timber when more salvation of the settler. use could be made of them now and our supplies of better timbers conserved for post­ Water is essential in a time of drought, war reconstruction. but there is another menace that presents itself, especially in a drought period, and Mr. O'Shea: What classes of timber do that is fire. Fire and drought march together, you call the better timbers~ and they threaten to wipe out settlements with all their improvements, stock, and every­ Mr. DECKER: I am referring to soft­ thing else. Of course, if the settler has the woods, pine in particular. We have reached good fortune by some miraculous means to the stage now at which the Minister has remove his stock and other belongings to a f~1::nd it necessary to grant permission for place of security or has constructed adequate pme tu be cut out of some of our reserves. fire-breaks he may avoid such a disaster. But I read the protest made by a section of what action has the department taken about people against giving entry to our national fire- breaks~ We kno w that it is an offence to 700 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

light fires in certain areas because of their do when the war is over. Unless we do that, danger to settlers and to forests. We know, we are going to condemn the new settler to a too, that the department in its reforestation hopeless outlook from the start, thereby mak­ has made fire-breaks and has kept them free ing it impossible for him to carry on and of bracken and other combustible materials. achieve success. The farmer requires above But what has been done in the ordinary all an adequate water supply with the neces­ districts, in pastoral areas, for instance~ sary plant and machinery to lift it for irriga­ Nothing of any consequence in the way of tion purposes. Let us start in that way. protection against fire has been carried out Then, I am sure, these men will be successful there, except perhaps in a haphazard way in their agricultural and pastoral pursuits. such as by the construction of roads. In It is our duty to give such a deal to the men many instance, the undergrowth is allowed to who settle on the land. grow right up to the edge of the road. That is why we have such heavy loss from bush Itir. Edwards: A new deaL fireg, The department should take steps to liir. DECJ{ER: If I may adopt the Lord enforce the provision relating to the build­ Mayor's catch-word, let us make it a new ing of fire-breaks in particular areas and deal for the settler. If we all get together the maintenance of them. If we can take on this point with that idea we shall not these precautions we shall go a long way have the failures we have had in the past. towards saving loss in times of drought. I We all know the useless land that was foisted believe that a settler can make a success of on the soldier-settlers after the last war. If his undertaking only if he has sufficient the land was good land there was no possi­ capital to install the necessary plant and bility of their making a living as the area was machinery and to buy stock. He must be too restricted. We must profit from the given the opportunity to provide ample water lessons of the past. Therefore, we should so that he will be safe in all climatic condi­ not make the areas too small or too big. The tions. In a number of cases when a purchaser larger the area the greater the opportunity has been able to put down enough to pay the for the settler to make a living. We must deposit he has to go to a private bank for not restrict the opportunity of the man we put the balance of his capital requirements. He on the land by making the areas too small. may not be able to get enough from a private If anything, we must err on the other side. bank to enable him to carry on and thus he I am confident the Minister has sufficient has to go to the department for additional experience of his own, apart from the experts :advances. The Commonwealth Government round him, to enable him to see to it that recently opened a mortgage bank, which will only areas likely to give success will be set make loans on terms of 40 Yl!ars, and perhaps aside for soldier-settlements. longer, and up to 60 to 70 per cent. of the When we talk of soldier-settlements we value of the property. The Government must not overlook that a number of civilians, should Ullldertake to giv,e settlers enough too, will require consideration. The whole :finance to enable them to provide an adequate question opens up big possibilities and the water supply. It would be a grand thing Department of Public Lands must work in if the Government could give the settlers a close co-operation with the Department of full advance to cover the cost of well-sinking Labour and Employment. To ensure success :and the maintenance of plant and machinery, they should put forward plans now that have so that the new settler could take advantage already been drawn up. If we delay very of all the irrigation facilities he needed to much longer there is the possibility that the tide him over all climatic conditions. If we war will end and our plans will not be ready. could do that it would be to the credit of the department, and it would give one of the Mr. HEALY (Warwick) (5 p.m.): Of most important fillips to the development of all departmental Estimates, I consider that the country. The advance would not be the department's Estimates under review to applicable to the land itself, and it would not be the most important. Particularly will that prevent the settler from obtaining further be apparent in the years that lie ahead. The sums for stocking purposes. It would be a Department of Public Lands will be more genuine attempt to help the settler. to carry closely engaged in the task of post-war recon­ on, and raise his prop81·ty to such a standard struction in Queensland than any other public of development that he could withstand the departments. There is no doubt that this rigours of a bad season. important department, with the Department Of course it will be asked how are the of Agriculture and Stock to a lesser extent, Government to get the money back. They will be charged with the responsibility of can easily get it back from the successful fashioning a programme to absorb our people man, but where the advances are made to a who are at present engaged in ·war acth·ities. man who is not so successful the opportuni­ No doubt the Department of Public Lands ties to recover are not so good. If my will be vested with the responsibility of method is adopte1i we shall guarantee the embarking on irrigatio11 and water-conserva­ settlers against all seasons, and I am certain tion projects to stimulate primar,r production they will have no diffic,ulty in repaying their under conditions of closer settlement. Queens­ indebtedness to the Government. These prob­ land's post-war development will be more lems will have to be tackled in a bigger way closely allied with primary production than in the future than they have been in the any other phase of industry. Any prepara­ past. The Government will have to give the tions that can be made for the future develop­ settlers the maximum amount of financial ment of primary production will be of ines­ help, especially if we are going to put timable value not only to Queensland but to soldier-settlers on the land, as we expect to the whole of Australia. Supply. [ 5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 701

lUr. Edwards: It has been so for years. "I have pictured long in the land I love What the land I love might be, Mr. HEALY: That interjection probably Where the Darling rises from Queensland brings us to a greater realisation of our rains requirements and necessities in peace time. And the flood runs out to sea. The electorate I represent is one that hon. And it is our fate to wake too late to the members will agree lends itself admirably to truth that we have been blind, the conservation of water, and in their post· With a foreign foe at our harbour gate war programme I sincerely hope that the and a blazing drought behind.'' Govemment will give particular attention to the potentialities of that rich, fertile area of Thir. DART (Wynnum) (5.6 p.m.) : This which Warwick is the centre. Before this is a day that should have some inspiration area was closely settled the Condamine River for the Secretary for Public Lands. He has and its tributaries provided a never-failing received much advice to-day as well as in t;he source of water supply, but with the gradual past, but I am sorry to say that private enter­ conversion from grazing to grain production prise has excelled the Government in the work and the consequent intensive cultivation of it has done in this matter. If one looks over the area this river has gradually silted up the whole of the State, one realises that the until it is only what I might term a succes­ Government have not given very much assist­ sion of shallow pools in periods of dry weather, ance to the people on the land. The hon. which, as >ve all know, is unfortunately the member for West Moreton made a very good rule rather than the exception in this State. suggestion-and the Minister agreed with it By employment of methods of water conser· -that our first task is to get rid of the pests vation, the Condamine River could be restored that are a detriment to the farmer. Much to its former condition and capacity. more could be done by the Government to help primary industry in this respect. We ~lr. Edwards: Quite right, it could be. have been told that from 5 to 50 per cent. of young lambs and calves are destroyed by Mr. HEALY: I was pleased to hear the dingoes. It is very sad to think that the Premier make reference some weeks ago to State is suffering so much when ample assist­ the Government's intention to have these ance from the Government would eliminate important rivers desnagged and desilted, the pests tha.t are ravaging our flocks and because that is the first job we must get on herds. It is no wonder people have to go with in the matter of water conservation and short of beef and mutton. irrigation, and the bigger sc;hemes must follow The Secretary for Public Lands: You do very quickly. A scheme of water conserva­ not know w;hat you are talking about. tion and irrigation to serve the rich fiats adjacent to the Condamine would be of Mr. DART: If you lose 50 per cent. of immense benefit to the State. young sheep or cattle, the number you will be Hand in hand with water conservation goes able to realise on later on is lessened to that fodder conservation; you cannot separate one extent. That is what is happening to-day. from the other. I presume I should be trans­ The Minister said that he would take notice gressing slightly by going into the matter of of wl1at had been suggested and he would see fodder conservation now, but I shall have if assistance could be given. I ask him to do something to say about it at a later date. I his best in the interests of the State in that conclude my remarks about water conserva­ direction. The Government have done some­ tion by quoting three verses of a poem by thing, or are doing something, in reference to Henry Lawson, which was published in 1903, irrigation but are helping only the cotton and to-day has a ring of prophecy. It say~- industrv. ' Other industries are being neglected. ' 'By our place in the midst of the farthest The Secretary for Public Lands: Cotton sea is a vital necessity in the war effort. We are fated to stand alone. When the nations :fl.y at each other's Mr. DART: There are other industries throats, deserving of equal consideration. I do not Let Australia look to her own. oppose the proposal of the expenditure of Let her spend her gold on the barren £131 000 on the cotton industry nor do I West, say the Government are not giving enough For the land and its manhood's sake. for that industry but they rertainly are not For the South must look to herself for giving enough to other industries. At the strength present time the GoYernment propose only 8·+. In the storm that is yet to break. schemes of irrigation. Imagine that small number in a State the extent of Queensland! " ' The rain comes down on the West ern land That can be regarded as a mere pittance. And the rivers run to waste, There is not only the conservation of water While the townsfolk rush for the special but the tapping of the artesian waters to be tram, considered. The Government can give In their childish, senseless haste. R'~istnnce to fnrmers in that direction. And never a pile of a loch we drive Many farmers are doing far mere work in But a few mean tanks we scratch, irrigation than are the Government. In fact, For the fate of a nation is naught I c1o not think the Government have con­ compared sidered helping the farmeTs in the provision With the turn of a cricket match. of pumping appliances for artesian waters 702 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. for irrigating purposes. We know perfectly been favoured in that irrigation has been well we must have settlers on the land as well ins~alled there, but taking the State as a as in the city. Certainly there must be whole very little has been done. The sooner secondary industries but in the first place the G~vernment get on with the job the better we must consider the primary industries, it will be for the State and its citizens. and if the Government want to do justice Many good schemes have been recommended, by the people who go on the land they must and \vhilst I must admit that some have been be willing to give these people a measure of put into effect, the fact is that most of the help. Since I have been in Parliament the recommendations have been ignored. Secretary £or Agriculture and Stock has advo­ I come now to soil erosion, which is taking cated irrigation and water conservation. I place in this as well as other States. If the also have done so and will continue to do so. Government do not take urgent steps to arrest There must be a new deal for the farmers it the problem will become serious. The hon. which in turn will be for the benefit of the member for Warwick has shown what can whole State. The cities cannot exist without happen in the silting up of creeks, which is country districts, and to help the country the result of erosion. If a mob of sheep IS something must be done for the people on the put on an area that is not irrigated an~ dry land. They must have the knowledge that in weather sets in the ground soon looks hke a periods of distress they will get some help. ploughed-up field, and the first rai~s that !all Comparisons have been made between wash the loose soil away thus causmg eroswn. Queensland and Victoria and New South The Government should give serious considera­ Wales. I visited the Hume weir, the money tion to the planting of grasses in order to for which was found by the Government. It retard it to some extent. In fact, the Govern­ conserves millions of gallons and irrigates a ment can do many things to improve the posi­ large area, the settlers of which benefit tion if they will set their minds to it. greatly. Hon. members have no doubt heard Reference has been made to the need for of the scheme put ,forward by thB late irrigation of sugar-cane, but this crop do~s Dr. J. C. C. BradfiBld, which would be of not require irrigation on some types of so1l. great value to this State, but what considera­ Of course there are areas in which it is tion have the Government given to it~ They essential. 'Although a few areas in the North give very 1ittle attention to small schemes have had the benefit of irrigation, there are and they let the large schemes pass by uncon­ many places in other parts o~ the _Btate that sidered. The time has arrivBd when we should are deserving of urgent cons1derat1on1 and I be giving consideration to post-war work, and ask the Minister to give all areas a fair deal. to-day the Minister should be telling this Committee what steps he is taking as regards Mr. O'SHEA (Warrego) (5.19 p.m.): I irrigation schemes and the conservation of had intended to allow this vote to go through water. Queensland is subject to drought and without any comment from me, but after hear­ steps should be taken to mitigate its effects. ing some of the statements made by hon. I have known people who have settled on the members opposite I felt that I should say land and trusted to providence to get them something. The hon. member for Sandgate out of their difficulties, making no provision and the hon. member for Wynnum have both for water supply in the case of drought. I had much to say about irrigation, but I say to the Minister advisedly that the sooner think that their trouble is that they are he gets busy helping the people in the country suffering from water on the brain. ~he ir~i­ in this way thB better for the whole of the gation schemes that have been established m State. His is the department responsible for the South are totally different from any that land management and control but it does might be undertaken here. The hon. member not go much further than issuing leases and for Wynnum talks of putting down sub­ collecting rents. If in return for the rents artesian wells and pumping from them, but they collect the Government do not give he speaks out of ignorance where irrigation something back to the people they do not matters are coneerned. He visited the Hume deserve to represent the people. A settler weir where 1,250,000 acre-feet of water is needs somB attention after he is placed on imp~unded. He tells us that that is an excel­ the land. I do not say that the man on the lent scheme but he can give us no idea as land requires to be spoonfed. If he has to where su'ch a project could be introduced initiative and resource and the assistance here. Several schemes may be suggested and any Government should give he will do well. may be feasible, but the layman is not Certainly the Government build roads and qualified to make any decision on such railway systems and so forth, but they must matters. Many projects may be thought go further and see to it that settlers are fairly good from an irrigation point of view, assisted to overcome periods of drought. The but when they are investigated it is often Government have done next to nothing about found that there are no catchment areas. irrigation and conservation of water. A further £144,000 is to be expended this year Mr. Macd(}nald: There are not too many. on the Somerset Dam but I have yet to hear The hon. member for one word of any intention to make a reserve :ilir. O'SHEA: for irrigation. Wynnum spokB about the Stanley River water for the purpose of irrigation and I presume The Government are merely asking the he meant the irrigation of sume of that ratepayers of Brisbane and Ipswich to pay country on this side of Ipswich. An_y for the scheme but neglecting to give the irrigation project to be undertaken by this farmers the benefit of irrigation. Some hon. Government must be carefully considered by members representing northern areas have experts. Mention has been made of the Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 703

Hume Weir, which was constructed by three We also heard of the story about the dingo State Governments and the Commonwealth menace. What the Minister told this Com­ Government at a total cost of £7,000,000, and mittee has been known to every landowner of the Dr. Bradfield project, which originally for years past, but for some reason or another was estimated to cost £31,000,000 and to local authorities have failed to do their duty, irrigate 2,000,000 acres of country. That particularly those in the cattle areas. I may sound all right to the hon. member for visited one of these areas administered by a Wynnum, but it does not sound very go·od local authority as a grazing district improve­ to me. ment board. It had the lowest road mileage in Queensland. The hotel in its centre was lUr. J. F. Barnes: That is only £15 an a pretty substantial building, possibly one acre, and that is nothing. of the best hotels in the country, yet it paid only 18s. a year rates. The council did not l'IIr. O'§HEA: It is nothing to the hon. own a dray or a horse, not even a wheel member. The hon. mem'ber for Sandgate barrow. It has an axe and a pick and shovel. said the settler would need to have a bank That is about all the equipment it possessed. behind him and I would add that he would Is it any wonder that it was able to carry need to have a permanent river in front of on with the lowest rate in Queensland~ him, too. Mr. F. Barnes: What shire was that? The hon. member for East Toowoomba J. poses as an expert on land settlement and he JUr. O'SHEA: It was the Taroom shire. spoke about settling people in the Tara and Moonie River districts on a maximum of Much has been said of improving land and 5,000 acres as a living area. Why, that is making it ready for offering it for selection. not enough country to lie down on in that If an intending selector is fortunate enough part of Queensland. I do not support the to draw such a selection then I do not think argument by the hon. member for East Too­ he should then appeal to the Government woomba at all, but in supporting his for a loan of £500 or £600 to work it. If argument one is supporting a clamour for the we are going to get settlers who will make a introduction of freehold in Queensland. success of the land they will not have the Evidently some hon. members are not satis­ opportunity of making that success if they iied with the excellent land laws of this State have not a few pounds with which to com­ and I believe that some of them would be mence operations. I am quite sure that inclined to get us into the same muddle and finance will be provided if they show a mess the southern States have got into, par­ willingness to develop the country. ticularly the States of New South Wales and It is remarkable how the controversy about Victoria. Land resumptions in Victoria have irrigation projects is resurrecte~ every year. cost the Victorian Government £35,000,000, It is the same old story. I believe I am as all because of the stupid policy of freehold good an authority on irrigation as any other they have had there. The New South Wales member of this Committee, if not better. I Government resumed Brookong Station at a have worked on every irrigation project in cost of £4 10s. an acre and now the settlers the Southern States and I have had the addi­ owe £8 an acre, or at least they did three tional advantage of doing organising work for years ago. Lake Cowal, New South Wales, six years on the principal irrigation works. was resum'ed at £8 an acre and now the 'fhe hon. member for Warwick made some settlers owe as much as £12 an acre. It is reference to the Condamine River. We know all very well to talk about using up these very well that the ·silting of the Condamine millions of pounds-the mythical millions River has followed intensive farming in the that the hon. member for Bundaberg has­ adjacent areas and tlie ~rop_osa;l to snag t~e but in establishing the proposed new order, river and dredge or desilt It IS a very big consideration will have to be given as to how one. The Condamine is the longest river in it is to be brought about. the whole of Australia. There are many sites along it that would lend themselves to locking A great deal has been said about the tim­ with advantage. One of these is at St. George ber resources of Queensland. I asked the where a bridge is urgently required, but a hon. member for Sandgate what timber he bridge and lock would serve requirements classed as the higher classes of timber, and admirably. I do not know whether members he said "Our pine timber." That does not of the Committee understand the construc­ convey very much to me. tion of a combined lock and bridge. Every irrigation scheme must be able to supply a Mr. Decker: I said softwoods. fairly large area; any scheme that will irrigate only two or three acres is not an irrigation lllr. O'SHEA: The hon. member said scheme at all, and to advocate such schemes pine. We know that the hoop-pine forests only creates a false impression. are fast approaching complete exhaustion. But there is another pine in the State, an Any of those schemes are too costly for almost unlimited quantity of it, but unfor­ the amount of country that they are going to tunately a prejudice has developed against serve. The same thing applies to the scheme its use mostly by timber merchants and build­ that has been bandied about in this Assembly ing contractors who have given it out that over the last two or three years-the Bradfield the timber is no good. I am speaking of scheme. Unless they are combined with cypress pine. There are thousands of acres hydro-electricity they put too big a cost on of cypress pine forests that are not yet the la'nd for it to bear, under the present touched. financial system. 704 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. Dart: You do not favour it? wculd lencl itself to irrigation if the catch­ ment area in the Condamine above Killarney ~Ir. O'SHEA: I favour irrigation where is sufficient to warrant the construction of a it is practicable; and I do not favour the dam. The Killarney area and right through Bradfield irrigation scheme, because the cost to \Varwick contains some of the best lucerne­ is too great. The estimated cost of £31,000,000 growing country we have. I speak principally to irrigate 2,000,000 acres is out of the of the districts that I know. question altogether, and I have never seen any scheme yet carried out at the estimated Speaking with a first-hand knowledge of cost in the first pla·ce; so that it is only what has been done in irrigation in some reasonable to suppose the scheme would cost parts of the Southern States, I would remind about £40,000,000. hon. members that when we move from Griffiths and Leeton-that seems to be the Mr. J. F. Barnes: You keep to the scheme most talked of in Queensland-we production part. Do not worry about the come to Curelwaa and Coomiealla. This irri­ cost; you do not understand it. gation area absolutely collapsed. It could not carry on. Curelwaa was closed down. From :i1Ir. O'SHEA: You do not understand anything about anything. Coomiealla coming back to Mildura we have the irrigated fruit areas, but there one will ~Ir. J. F. Barnes: That is in your find about the poorest people one will find in opinion; your opinion does not count. the world. Griffiths and Leeton have been able to operate because it was discovered that Mr. O'SHEA: You are like Middleton's rice could be grown there. That saved a rouseabout: you have no opinions and no collapse. ideas. The Government have a scheme of irrigation Mr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay) (5.40 p.m.) : in mind, and wherever it is practicable it I pay the Minister the compliment of saying will be put into operation as soon as possible. that he is easy to approach and is doing excellent work in connection with the land in l\Ir. J. 1<'. Barnes: If they are all like Queensland. He appears to have a splendid you they will never be practicable; thank knowledge of such matters and looks into God, they are not. coases placed before him without very much .Mr. O'SHEA: Thank God, they are not delay . like the hon. member. I think he should The Government will have to deal with the have come into this Chamber in his swadd­ question of land settlement in the near future. ling clothes, for he should not innovate any Land settlement and agriculture go together. more upon the dress than upon the under­ We are a primary-producing State and have standing of the cradle. not advanced to a very great extent with I again say that we must not merely talk secondary industries. I am hopeful that the about these projects. If it is practicable to matter of primary industries will be taken put these schemes into effect then serious into consideration by the Government inas­ consideration must be given to them, but much as it is essential that when our lads it is no good beating the air and trying to return from the war some will want to go on impress on the people that you have some the land, although many will prefer employ­ wonderful scheme if it has not the necessary ment in the cities. With secondary industries, attributes; if for instance the country does much of our raw material could be converted not lend itself to the impounding of water into the finished article, which, of course, what is the good of going on talking about would be an advantage. In regard to the it'/ One could go up to the Lockyer V alley future I know the Government are making and with an expenditure of £14,000,000 or provision to do something to assist men on £15,000,000 construct a dam that would the land, and I am hopeful that they will impound sufficient water to irrigate a sub­ see to it that good land is made available. stantial part of the lower end of the Lockyer There is good land here and we must see to V alley, but I do not know whether the people it that this good land is settled and given to generally would be satisfied with a system those who return from the war instead of that served one corner of a district or State. having to go through the ordeal that other When people speak about irrigation in that way men went through between 1914-18. As is they simply show that they do not know a'ny­ well known to the Government, the failure thing about it. We have one scheme of irriga­ of that time occurred chiefly because those tion on the Darling Downs carried out by who went on the land had not much know­ a private person, and it is the only one there ledge of land settlement and were put on that is worth a straw, and that is the scheme poor land in areas that were too small. \'V e carried on by Mr. Bligh on the Condamine, must make good land available to these which is certainly a credit to him. Mr. Bligh returned soldiers. is not a struggling squatter either; he has Irrigation is of great importance. We are ra·ised a good many fat lambs there and going through some very dry spells and had continues to do so. When people talk about we expended money some time ago on irriga­ the irrigation of crops, I do not know what tion the position would be better than it is crops they need to irrigate. There is no need to-day. It is our duty to see that everything to irrigate wheat. possible shall be done to have irrigation pro­ .Mr. Dart: Lucerne. jects put into effect. Certainly, the work is costly, but any irrigation scheme, be it ever ll'Ir. O'SHEA: Lucerne is irrigated. so small, is an excellent investment. A good Possibly Killarney is another place that water supply is essential. Had we locked Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 705 some of the creeks a ample supply of water taking place on many of the flats along the would be available for our cattle and crops, river and creek banks. and should the Government make a move even The Minister might also look into the very now the work will be of great advantage to important question of >Yire and wire netting the settlers and the State. supplies. The man on the land has been We are threatened with a food shortage, handicapped severely for a long time in not and if we do not do something to help our­ being able to get wire, especially bar bed wire selves, the position will become acute. Many and wire netting. I trust that something will small inigation projects have been undertaken be done in the near future to enable us to buy in my electorate. The farmers have installed these much-needPd items. To-dav a man who pumps and 3-inch pipes, and have been able has cattle does not know whethei· they are in to save many crops that would have been the paddock or out of it because the ~wire in ruined otherwise. Certainly the potato posi­ the fences has deteriorated or rusted, and tion would have been much more serious here the cattle can get out. There is very little i£ the farmers in the 1\lurgon district and security for stock to-clay and the same can other centres had not had the foresight to be said of crops. im;tall irrigation plants. The J'\Linister has There is a splendid piece of forestry land experts in his department, a11d we look to him in the Murgon district, timber reserve No. 7 4, for advice on matters connocte,l with the Nangur, from which almost all the timber locking of creeks and the erection of dams. has been removed. The promise has been If they will co-operate, much good will be done made to me that all the timber will be in the interests of the State. removed. Then it can be cut up into four Over-stocking has been given as one reason or five good farms, which would be of benefit for soil erosion, and I agree with the state­ to the district and a benefit to the farmers ments that have been made to that effect, who are endeavouri11g to grow crops near by. because over-stocking is certah1ly detrimental If the timber is removed, the land brought in that the stock eat the paddocks bare, the under production, and an opportunity given soil becomes powdery, and the fh-st heavy to the settlers to buy wire netting, it will be rains wash it into the creeks and the rivers, possible to keep the marsupials away from thus doing much damage to good land. If, the crops. on the other hand, we under-stock, grass is I hope the Minister will pay due attention left to hold the surface soil when the rains to the matters I have raised. fall. · I am pleased to note that there is an The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS increase of £11,746 in the vote for Forestry. (Hon. E . .J. Walsh, Mirani) (5.54 p.m.): Here is an excellent opportunity for building The hon. member for East Toowoomba up an invaluable asset, for, by regenerating referred to what he said was Government our forests, we are creating future wealth. interference with the functions of the Land Pine and other softwoods must be preserved Court by the Act passed last session to deal in the interests of the nation, and I trust that with the fixation of rents and the differentia­ the Minister will take steps to prevent some tion between pastoral and gra~ing tenures. of the present destruction of valuable timbers. I think Parliament is the competent body to I should certainly support any action taken lay down the principles to be applied in such by him in the interests of preserving our cases and it is for the court to interpret the splendid timbers from destruction. I realise law and to determine the issues that come that the axe had to be put into many trees before it in accordance with them. that should have been left until they are more Generally speaking, it will be admitted that mature, and this applies to hardwoods as well Parliament is the proper place to lay down as softwoods. I realise, of course, that the such principles. Having regard to that fact, exigencies of war have made this necessary, the hon. member for East Toowoomba should but I trust that action will be taken to mini­ have no complaint to make. As a matter of mise this action as far as possible. fact, the amending Act he alluded to was It is unfortunate that the good work that very favourably received among grazing has been done in our forests could not have interests throughout the State. been allowed to continue and that the timber The hon. members for Sandgate and Wide could not have been allowed to mature and Bay made some reference to the extension of thus become a splendid asset for the State. forestry activities. I want to impress on The Minister should look into the subject hon. members that this Government have done· of noxious weeds very carefully indeed. a good deal in that connection. We have not Unfortunately all our timber reserves carry done all that we desired, but within the limits· noxious weeds, and when they seed they of the finances at our disposal we have done become a menace in other parts of the dis­ a very good job in the last 10 years. It i& trict. In many instances the local authorities interesting to note that something like two­ are not eradicating these pests and the ques­ thirds of the area under reforestation has tion arises: what are we to do to keep the been planted in the last 10 years. That i& banks of rivers and creeks free of noxious indicative of the interest the Government have weeds~ The menace is a serious one and taken in the matter in that period. Unfor­ the Government should see whether some­ tunately, as the hon. member for Wide Bay thing cannot be done to prevent their seeding. said, we have had to go into our forests to cut The old saying is that one year's seeding is timber required for war purposes, particularly 10 years' weeding, and I know that that is for naval and aeroplane construction. 1943-z 706 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

I do not think the remarks of the hon. point out that local authorities in Queens­ member for Sandgate will bear close investi­ land, particularly the western part of it, are gation. He .may go round and see many permitted to employ doggers in a.ccordance structures gomg up and the timber being with the terms and conditions of an industrial u.sed in them may appear to be first-class award. Although I agree with much that timber. I do not want to apologise for any­ ?ne who ·wastes timber in that way, but it was said by the hon. member for West Moreton I cannot bring myself to agree with ~s wrong to say that is the general position m regard to these structures. As a matter of him that anybody who liked to interest him­ fact, considerable control is exercised not self in the extermination of dingoes could Qnly by the Government of this State but by find pleasure in it. It is well that I should the Commonwealth authorities. It is really point out that doggers who earn their living not one of the functions of this State to by trapping dingoes are highly skilled men. eontrol the use of timber for such purposes I do not believe it is possible to take any man but two ye:us ago I myself made some and say to him, • 'We want you to trap remaTl's about the waste that was then going dingoes,'' and expect him to have success. Qn. I am happy to say that Mr. Kessell, the It is true that dingoes play a big part in the destruction of beasts; and I believe we Fede~al Controller of Timber, a man with can subscribe to something that is not a prac~Ical knowledge of those things, who was prevwusly Conservator of Forests in ·western theory, but a demonstrated fact throughout Australia, is giving close attention to that the years, that the dingo can also be the point and one of our officers, Mr. Crane, who means of destroying human life. Just recently has been seconded to the Commonwealth ser­ in the far outback at Boulia a young bushman v_ice, is helJ?ing him to control supplies of lost his life trying to have a little sport in timber_ reql!ued for naval and military pur­ running down dingoes on horseback. In the poses m this State. They will see to it that process of the chase a noble life was destroyed. first-class timbers are used only where they Anyone who knows that country knows how are really essential. It must be admitted utterly impossible it would be to exterminate that there are works in which first-class the dingo by way of running it down on timbers have to be used, but I can assure horseback. In the case I speak of both the !he . J:on. member for Sandgate that my horse and the rider fell and the rider broke mqmnes show that the officers of the Com­ his neck. To illustrate the trials that these monwealth are going to a good deal of trouble people have to undergo I add that the boy to see that first-class timbers are not being lost his life only H miles from his father's wasted in _the way he suggests. Every hon. homestead, but in those parts of the world member Will agree that in vast undertakings telephone exchanges are open only for certain associated with war there must be waste but hours of the day and the boy's father, who it is the duty of the officers of the depart­ wond~red what had become of the boy when ments in control and of any Government to he did not return at a certain hour was unable to reach his selector neighbou~s by see t~at it is eliminated as far as possible. means of the telephone. The result was the I ~hmk Queen~lan?- can boast of having achieved somethmg In that connection because boy lay in a paddock overnight and was we have seconded to the Government numerous found next morning. I made representations experienced officers who are in a position to to the Federal authorities, and for some reason apply their practical knowledge to the supply known to themselves they were not able to and utilisation of our timbers. extend the telephone facilities to the people living in those parts as they are extended to There is not the slightest doubt that after the people living in the closely settled areas. the war forestry will play a very big part in post-war reconstruction. There is no other . The employment of doggers is a very form of Government work that gives such a Important ~atter to the pastoral industry. volume of employment in proportion to the Who compnse the personnel of local authori­ amount spent. Almost 80 per cent. of the ties~ Hon. members are well aware that the money allotted to forestry goes in wages or in councils in the majority of these areas are directions associated with employment. comprised of graziers. It is true that some are town representatives, but when I hear ~r. DEVRIES (Gregory)) (7.15 p.m.) : hon. members charging the Government with I nse to speak to this very important Esti­ omissions, I think that the graziers them­ mate, and I hope that any contribution I selves have for too long leaned on the Govern­ ~hall make on it will be the means of bring­ ment. I say that in a general way. On the mg under the notice of the Minister and whole, the grazier does not seek aid from any giving him a fair conception of the many Government unless he is absolutely compelled peculiarities that surround the pastoral to do so. In the western parts of Queensland mdustry; for it can be truly said that it has selectors often band themselves together to many peculiarities that are not familiar to get a dog or some other purpose. Recently it those who have not lived in the pastoral was brought to my notice that selectors in areas or worked in that industry. what is termed the Balkan States, not far from Ilfracombe, banded together to catch a This afternoon I listened very attentively dingo which caused havoc amongst the sheep. to the remarks of the hon. member for West Five of the graziers decided each to put in Moreton. I always listen very attentively to £5, whoever was successful in catching that the hon. member for West Moreton because dog to receive £.25. The dog was eventually he has a happy way of placing the facts caught bv one of the selectors, who received fairly,. and his remarks are thought-­ the award. It shows what they are prepared ;provokmg. As to the dingo menace, I would to do. Supply. [5 OCTOBER.] Supply. 707

Local authorities in Western Queensland are I remember the Government's closer settle­ vested with powers equal to those the Minister ment policy of not so many ye:us a·go. At himself wields in this matter, and there is no that time I was a strong advocate of the reason for any hon. member to complain that closer settlement scheme, but when a serious, this Government are not concerned about the drought overtook the industry I saw that it dingo pest. After all, the Government must was doomed to failure. I refer now to the be. Unless they are, the revenue of the State year 1933. must decline. This Government have been Mr. Walker: That was brought in by the generous in their treatment of the grazing J\IcCormack Government. industry. The hon. member for Bundaberg has said that the dingo could be easily Mr. DEVRIES: That is so, and we have exterminated if every man was employed profited by that mistake, and the Government destroying them. But a dogger does not work of the day were big enough to admit that in in close proximity to civilisation. For pra'ctice their closer settlement scheme was instance, let me point to such a property as not all that it should have been. I had a vVarenda, mid·way between Winton and fair amount to do with that policy, because Boulia, which comprises 2,000 square miles. I worked and lived among those people and On that property a dogger has to go away saw just "·hat the evils of drought meant,, into the hills, and that is no mean job. That not only to the people of the land, but also is the part the local authorities must be con­ to the business houses and workers. The cerned with. Day after day one sees in the Government of the day decided in their Weste1'n papers applications for men willing wisdom upon a cha·nge of front, and, instead to do doggers' work, but very few offer of creating additional selections, to give because of the privations to be suffered. larger living areas to selectors. Moreover, transportation has been curtailed If we believe the Government should be considerably by reason of the shortage of called upon to do all these things an impor­ petrol, tyres, and spare parts. It may be tant factor is the regulating of the number of said that the job can be done on horseback. sheep that can be depastured on an area. That may be true, but a dogger needs a Many years ago the average weight of fleece, motor vehicle to get to certain parts of some a'ccording to Commonwealth statistics, was properties. 7} lb. of wool, whereas to-day, with scientific If the dingo could be so easily exterminated, breeding and a smaller flock a greater average why is it the kangaroo menace is so rampant weight is obtained. in parts of the State~ There has been no Mr. Macdonald: Thanks to the p•as• shortage of labour so far as shooters are toralist 's breeding methods. concerned, and I make bold to say that the kangaroo menace in the western portion of Mr. DEVRIES: I am giving them credit. Queensland is also serious. I think of 1926, If a grazier is not able to run his own in which a very severe drought began in business, the Government are asked to run that part of the State. It prevailed until it for him, and the success of the industry almost 1938, and I remember that in has been due to the fact that the grazier 1933 the graziers called a conference ha~ not looked to the Government for subsidy to tackle the p1·oblem of the conservation of or help to any extent if he can avoid it. water and feed. It is a good thing to see I have yet to learn that the graziers have these men banding together, and I believe the applied to the Government for any large· time is fast approaching when the graziers concessions. Their requests up to date have will have to organise even more than they been extremely modest. I believe that the have hitherto done. When one considers the grazier is willing to spend money on the highly organised state of the sugar industry conserva'tion of fodder, and water improves in which the means of production are cur­ the assets of the State. As the productivity tailed, one must admit that the graziers must of his land increases so his earning power act likewise. But this Government cannot be becomes greater and more revenue is received charged with any apathy concerning the wel­ from him by the State. fare of the industry as a whole. I suggest that consideration be given to The grazier must organise himself. His the man on the land who will spend his own responsibility is just as great as that of the money to conserve fodder and water. I Government, and the question of the conserva­ believe the grazier who will spend £2,000 a tion of water and fodder must be tackled in year on the conservation of water is doing all earnestness. After all, it must be remem­ a service to the State as a whole as well as bered that all life springs from the soil. making his own future secure and those Every sheep lost through drought and other dependent upon him happier. Therefore, I causes means one sheep less for the shearer suggest that the Government might consider to shear and one fleece less for the shedhand giving him relief to the extent of allowing to handle. him to deduct that money from his income' I am pleased to be able to point out how for tax purposes. There is nothing wrong fortunate Queensland is in having in charge with that proposal. If the Government are of the Department of Public Lands the present to be charged with the responsibility of con­ Minister. The people I represent are look­ serving water and fodder, which are national ing forward to many reforms. Much can be assets, it would cost them much more to do done for the pastoral industry; and I believe it themselves than if the grazier were to do that that reform-and that measure of relief it on his own account. For instance, I have -will be forthcoming within a short space of in mind a selector who is able to get money time if the present Minister remains in con­ free of interest from the Bureau of Rural trol of this department. Development for fencing and ringbarking, 708 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. and I think for water conservation, too. receive just as much sympathetic considera­ Money that is spent in the interests of the tion as any member of this Government. I nation must lead to greater productivity. I look forward to the tim'e when the industry have always subscribed to the belief that the will flourish much more than it does to-day. lt more you give to the man on the land the is not a question of making conditions allur­ more you m·e able to take from him and give ing. \'\"e hear much talk about the drift from to those who are dependent upon him. Costs the bush to the cities. Our real task to-day should not enter into the question. is to get the drift to set back from the city We speak about the late Dr. Bradfield 's to the bush. (Hear, hear!) It is no use scheme for water conservation. I want to pay talking aboul building palatial homes and homage to that grand man who has done so puttin[ rdrigerators into them all, for what much not only for Queensland but for the is the u8e of a refrigerator in a. home, or a whole of the Commonwealth. palatial homt-~ if the occupier has no security of employment~ Let us set out to organise Honourable ]}!embers: Hear, hear! and give to mankind the security to which Mr. DEVRIES: I believe that the irriga­ it is entitled. I believe if that security is tion scheme that was proposed by him was given that there will be no trouble in getting never intended to mean the irrigation of that drift back from the city to the bush. large tracts of pastoral country. ·who would Honourable ~!embers: Hear, hear! suggest that you could successfully irrigate 1,000,000 acres of land, areas about the size Mr. FARRELL (Maryborough) (7.40

to··day. If a comparison is needed, let us our softwoods. I pay tribute to the way in make one in connection with what is hap­ which the Minister has grappled with all the pening in hardwood and softwood timbers. problems of the industry. Over a long period of years in which we During this discussion a good deal has been have been developing the timber industry, said about water conservation and inigation. particularly requirements to meet war con­ We may well lay down the principle that we tingencies, we have never been short of should carry to the people in the outbark hardwoods. The sam'e cannot be said of soft­ areas of the State all the amenities of life woods. That may have been brought about it is possible to give them, and all the imple­ by man-power and other problems, but I ments it is possible to make available for contend, Mr. Brassington, that the main rea­ them, but none of those things will be effec­ son is that the timber industry itself has tive unless the Government pursue a policy controlled hardwood supplies. Therefore, in whereby electricity can be carried to our the succeeding years the industry has been farming communities wherever it is practicable able to carry on the hardwood industry and to do so. It is no good talking about water supply the necessary logs. That was due to conservation and irrigation unless we supply the organisation set up by the millowners adequate electricity to carry those amenities themselves. The industry has had to cart to the farming areas. I believe that irriga­ logs, ehiefly by road, for distances up to 60 tion has been responsible for a great deal of miles and my district by sea transport. The the development of our primary and secondary majority of people will agree that the timber industries. Over a period of years we have industry is one of those industries that have had demonstrations by individual farmers, done a very fine job in the war effort. Its collections of farmers, and companies that organisation has been such that it has been irrigation has been responsible for the pro­ able to establish all-time records. duction of immense crops. If that is possible It rather surprised me, when the Australian in some areas it is equally possible in others, ·workers' Union approached the Industrial but that development was only possible Court with certain suggestions that the work­ because the facilities were available to the men in that industry should get certain con­ people who wished to take advantage of them. cessions, that they were rejected. It was not If we are to develop we must take elec­ surprising that the workers in the industry tricity to these people. From time to time it rebelled against the decision of the court and, has been said that this Government, together as a result, they were able to meet the with the Commonwealth Government, will employers in conference and so to-day are lay down a policy of post-war reconstruction enjoying some of the conditions that should so that the amenities of life will be available have been granted to them by the court. to the men on the land. If that is done, it Nobody can deny that the timber industry will stop the drift to the city. During this to-clay is in a more favourable position to war period a number of men have come from pay those award rates and grant those con­ the land to the cities and unless we give the ditions than it has been in the past. amenities available in the city to the people We find the complaint always cropping up in the country these men will remain in the that we are short of softwoods. Certainly, we cities, and, of course, one could not blame are. The demand that has been placed on our them. They will not be bothered going back softwoods has been enormous, but it cannot to the drudgery that was for years a'ssociated be expected that that demand will continue with their existence, and if the Government indefinitely. It has to be remembered that will not do the things I have suggested and for many years in which this Government enable people on the land to earn their have been in charge of the land administra­ living in comfort and rear families in a tion, we have endeavoured at all times to proper way, then the result will be on the do everything we possibly could to rejuvenate heads of the Government. During the recon­ the softwood forests. I do not know whether struction period a great amount of work it has come to the notice of hon. members, will be done to put such idea's into operation. but one of the outstanding men associated In conclusion, I thank the .Minister for with the Sub-Department of Forestry was the all the consideration he has given to the late Mr. Duffy. During the time he was an timber industry in my electorate. officer of the department he made a trip to New Guinea, and anyone who read his report lUr. LUCKINS (Maree) (7.52 p.m.): On will know that he came back with the idea a study of the early history of Queenslancl that in New Guinea was one of the finest we :find land development has been gradual. erops of pine in the world. With the develop­ In many instances land owned by the Crown ment that must take place in New Guinea as in the early days was used for the purpose the road system grows, the forests of pine of financing the building of bridges. An Act will be made available to the Australian was put through this Parlia'ment in the early people. I really believe that, and I take as days popularly called the Bridge Lands Act, my authority the late Mr. Duffy, whose bv which land was sold really for the purpose opinion was one of the best that could be of building the first bridge in Brisbane. Sin~e got on the industry. I believe that as time then there have been many developments m goes on, instead of having to import soft­ land administration and also in the matter of woods from America, we shall get our supply seeuring titles to land. At one time it was from New Guinea and the surrounding islands. the usual thing for the Government, in or.Jer Whatever may be said, I think it can be to induce migrants to come to this country, established that this Government are doing to give a deed of grant over a certain piece everything they can for the development of of land. Some of these deeds are still in 710 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. existence. It is now the practice to give I\Ir. Riordan: Have you ever heard of better security or title to ownership of a Bowen? piece of land. ·when one reads the history of Queensland's land development it is Mr. LUCKINS: Yes, I should say that amazing to find the number of tenures that Bowen runs a good fourth to the city of Bris­ operate in the State. In the early days land bane. It is an important place, and who was set aside for market places in such cities to-day knows where the development of Aus­ as Brisbane for instance. These lands are tralia will take place? I believe that it will still under the jurisdiction of the Crown and be in Queensland because it is the nearest it has been suggested that much of that land part to those teeming millions who mean tTade should be tr::insferred to the local authorities. and commerce to us. Queensland is destined to play an important part in that develop­ The Secretary for Public Lands: The ment and we as administmtors of the land local authorities have control of them. on behalf of the Crown should see that every city has certain areas set aside for recrea­ lUr. LUCKINS: Yes, but not the owner­ tion and park purposes so that a beautiful ship. The municipality has the tenure and city can be built in the years to come. uses the land. In Market street there is a building erected by the muncipality on what The Secretary for Public Lands: We may used to be the market reserve. The same have to get to the stage of tying those lands thing has occurred in St[mley street, South up by Act of Parliament so that they cannot Brisbane. In Roma street the buildings com­ be used for any other purpose. prising the markets are owned by the mtmi­ cipality, but the land is owned by the Crown. Mr. LUCKINS: I do not mind so long as the Government do the right thing in the ~Ir. Power: Did they not allow a garage interests of the people, but when they do tie to be built on Crown land in South Brisbane~ them up I ask them please to give back in exchange to the municipality the lands they Mr. L UCKINS: That is another case in took away from it. They took away a very point. Such matters should be cleaned up large piece of land in South Brisbane to in the interests of the city and of the Crown. build a fine railway station. That is in the At thnes it is very confusing to see Crown interests of the city, of course, but in fairness lands put to uses that are not in the interests to the municipality they should give it some­ of the city. For instance, take the markets thing in exchange. Although the Crown can in Brisbane. They could very well be removed do no wrong a certain 1·esponsibility rests to better surroundings and a building more on the Minister's shoulders, and I am sure in keeping with the importance of Brisbane that he will honour it when the question erected there. There has been an agitation arises. I know that the Minister will give in that direction for years. Then there is earnest consideration to this matter in the the instance of a local authority handing over interests of the State. to the Crown certain lands in Ann street for a Government building, in exchange for the This city is developing gradually. A bridge opening of a roadway from Georgc street at has been built across the Brisbane River in Adelaide street to North Quay. That has the Valley. There are small areas of park never been accomplished and I hope the land there, but bigger ones are essential. arrangements that were entered into will be South Brisbane has been badly neglected in honoured in due course. The railway reserve the past so far as park areas are concerned in South Brisbane is a very good piece of and I hope that the time will soon arrive land. That might be dedicated as a park for when we shall have these facilities so that the people of South Brisbane. A city of the people may rest in parks adjacent to com­ importance of Brisbane demands better con­ mercial and business centres. This is one of sideration from the Government in the matter the cities of Australia that have been badly of gifts of land for park and recreation neglected in this respect. I trust that the purposes. Minister will give serious consideration to the erection of new market buildings and the The Secretary for Public Lands: They have pretty fair consideration, but they use provision of a city square that will be in keeping with the dignity of the city beautiful thr land for other than municipal purposes. of the future. Mr. LUCKINS: If they attempt to get away with that, the Government should put :Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba) (8 p.m.) : The activities of the Department of Public a stop to it. Lands are very important, as they are bound Mr. Power: They rented a park in Milton up with the economics of the State. The to a Country-National Organisation candidate report the Minister has presented to Parlia­ to run his horses in. ment is not as elaborate as it used to be, but it is chock-full of information and interest Mr. LUCKINS: I should not like to go and gives one a good idea of the activities into the pros and cons of who is using the of this very important department. land, because that is the department's baby. If the Crown knows of a case in which land One factor that I think is well worth has not been used in the interests of the noting, especiall(' when we hear so much about citizens the matter should be inquired into the vast undeveloped areas of the State, is and put right. Brisbane is one of the greatest that the table on page 1 of the report reveals cities in the Commonwealth, but in my opinion that only a little over 8 per cent. of land it not properly laid out so far as pa'rk and in Queensland is unoccupied at the present recreation areas are concerned. time, so that there is not such a vast area Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 711 of open spaces as some might think. Another will not allow any more national parks to be thing that is noticeable in this table is entered by timber-getters or anybody else that the Minister is the biggest landlord in who will bring about their destruction. These the State, as he more or less controls 80 per natural parks, particularly those al'eas that cent, of the land in Queensland. we have reserved on the Lamington Plateau, are national assets and they must be main­ The Secretary for Public Lands: And he is a just landlord, too. tained, because they will be valued very greatly indeed by future generations. There lUr. NICKLIN: I have heard him des­ are not many areas of natural scrub left in cribed in another way, but I must admit that our country, and it is vital that wP.erever the Minister does his job and endeavours to they are in suitable spots they should be give a fair deal to all sections of the com­ reserved and kept inviolate from anyone who munity. would wish to enter and use the timber or destroy their natural beauty in any way what­ Reference is made in the report to the rural ever. There are quite a number of small areas development scheme which was inaugurated in scattered thl'oughout the State, and when I the time of the Moore Government. The very speak of small areas, I mean areas of 5, 10, :first money that was made available by that and perhaps 15 acres of natural parks. I Government fol' development purposes was have two in particular in mind, and they are made available for this very laudable work alongside the North Coast railway line, about of rural development. It was made available 55 miles north of Brisbane. Tpey are two of at the cheap rate of 3 per cent., too, and the a number of scenic areas alongside the N orlh :first amount was £190,000. Notwithstanding Coast railway reservBd by the Hon. W. T. the really excellent work that has been done Paget, a former Secretary for Railways. with this money, a decreasing amount has They were beautiful areas. been made available each year at an incl'eas­ ing rate of interest. The last amount that Unfortunately, a number of them have been has been made available, according to the destroyed by :fire in recent years, but the report, was £36,000 at 4! per cent., as against majority will grow again. They are beauty 3 per cent. when the :first amount was made spots that are admired by passengers travel­ available by the Moore Government when the ling up and down the North Coast line. A scheme was inaugurated. When we analyse few years ago deviations of that line were the very useful work that has been done by constructed, with the result that small areas this expenditure, we :find that money could of these beauty spots were left high and dry, not have been put to a bettel' or a greater so to speak, right out of sight of the line use than for the rural development scheme. and away from all means of communication. These areas are of no value whatever as The Secretary for Public Lands: I have national parks and are only breeding grounds said in this Chamber before that it was one for vermin. The Minister could with advan­ of the best investments this Government ever tage see if something could be done with made. them. Very often, in the debates on the Department of Public Lands, we hear speeches Mr. NICKLIN: It is one of the best as to whether some forestry areas should be investments any Government ever made, both opened for settlement, and, as the Minister from the point of view of. getting value for knows, I am not one to advocate the indiscri­ the money and in providing employment. It minate opening of forestry areas for settle­ has been responsible for such useful work as ment. Rather do I advocate reforestation and ringbarking, suckel'ing, scrub-felling, clearing, the preservation and care of what forests we fencing, and water improvements to a total have left. I think, though, that there are value of £676,000, and it has given employ­ some instances in which forestry reserves near ment to about 23,000 men. I regret tP.at the settlements should be looked into with a view amount made available each year is not to consolidating both settlement areas and greater than it is. Last year the amount was forestry areas. The Minister knows that £36,500, and this year, according to the where we have forestry areas broken by Budget, it is £69,000, whereas it should be settlement the risk of :fire is greatly increased, double that amount. and that is not good business for the depart­ The Secretary for Public Lands: There ment. is not much use in increasing the sum if the The Secretary for Public Lands: As a man -power is not there to use it. matter of fact, it is a very important phase of forestry planning. lUr. NICKLIN: I know that there are difficulties at the present time in connection Mr. NICKLIN: The Minister could with with man-powel', but I think a greater amount advantage look at some of the areas in the might be usefully expended even in the Beerburrum district with a view, perhaps, to present difficult times. opening part of the forestry areas for settle­ I desire to refer now to our national parks. ment and closing some of the settlement areas They have come into the limelight lately, and to consolidate the forestry areas. demands have been made upon the Minister The Secretary for Public Lands: I have to make available some of the timber in some always gathered from some hon. members on of the national parks, but I am glad to know your side that the Beerburrum area is not that he has resisted those demands except in good for settlement. one instance in North Queensland, whel'e I understand he allowed the timber to be taken Mr. NICKLIN: I am going to tell the to meet a national emergency. I hope he Minister something that might interest both 712 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. him and those hon. members. vVe have heard Turning to the problem of soil erosion, a great deal about Beerburrum, and which is a very live question not only in undoubtedly so far as the soldier settlement Queensland and Australia but all over the was concerned Beerburrum was one of the world, I would point out that we have areas greatest tragedies we have ever seen. That that we shall have to handle very carefully was because the soldier-settlement area was if we are to retain them as fertile and pro­ set aside, cut up like a draught-board, and a ductive land. A start was made last vear soldier put on every area, irrespective of with the amendment of the Lands Acts to whether it was good, bad, or indifferent. If deal with this important question by preserv­ that settlement had been properly handled and ing timber along creeks and exercising some a limited number of selectors settled on it, control over ringbarking and the destruction no doubt a successful settlement might have of trees generally, but this is a matter that been made. It was the way it 'vas handled is of more than ordinary importance, and I by its originators that asked for trouble, lmow it is a subject to which the Minister with the resultant tragedy that occnrred. But, has given a considerable amount of atten­ not satisfied with one tragedy, we had two­ tion. There are many areas in this State when the Go.-ernment of the day endeavoured where the erosion is insidious rather than to establish a tobacco settlement there. spectacular, and the former is the more dangerous. I think the problem can best be I\Ir. Riordan: The main tragedy was in tackled by an educational canrpaign to stress the first place, when the land was bought at its destructive capacity and the methods of an inflated price. prevention. I do not know whether the Minister has given any thought to the prob­ I\Ir. NICKLIN: The land was not bought; lem, but I should like to hear his ideas on it was Crown land. No land was bought to the question. I think we could with advantage establish the Beerburrum soldier settlement. use our own ''Agricultural Journal,'' the After the failure in the first place it should local Press, the radio, and the films in an have been handed over to the Sub-Depart­ educational programme on this question. It ment of Forestry for reforestation work. If would be worth while allocating a sum of that had been done and the £80,000 that was money from the department's vote to start expended on the tobacco settlement had been an educational campaign in this State in spent on reforestation, we should to-day have regard to soil erosion. something on Beerburrum to show for that The Secretary for Mines: Wait until after expenditure. The point I wish to make is the Hamilton by-election. that when the tobacco scheme failed, the Sub­ Department of Forestry planted the area with Mr. NICKLIN: It is not a bit of use hardwood and endeavoured to protect the waiting till the Hamilton by-election. Such young trees from fire. It is very difficult to an important question should be tackled do that when you have broken settlement here straightaway. That is the trouble with and there. The number of firebreaks that erosion and other problems-we always wait had to be ploughed about those areas is much until something happens. Let us tackle the greater than in the consolidated blocks of problem immediately, first by voting a sum forests further back towards Glasshouse of money from the department to begin Mountains and Beerwah. There are some immediately an educational campaign to very successful farmers among the settlers awaken the people to its dangers and the still left on old Beerburrum itself. Some are methods of prevention; and secondly, by hav­ making just as much off that Beerburrum ing a survey made by the State and dealing land as any other farmer in the State. Their with the problem as it should be dealt with combination is fowls and chokos. There are -promptly, effectively, and efficiently-before farmers there who, in one year, have made it gets beyond us and before we lose thousands into the four-figure mark from fowls and of acres of this great State. the humble chokos. I intend to say something on forestry on It is rather surprising to see some of the the vote for the Sub-Department of Forestry. account sales they have received for a con­ signment of chokos. In the area where those Mr. RIORDAN (Bowen) (S.li'l p.m.): The men are doing so well with the combination vote now before the Committee is one of the of fowls and chokos there are two or three most important that comes before it. areas between others in the settlement that If we dismissed it lightly we should be are held by the Sub-Department of Forestry, neglecting our duty to those who sent us here but the settlers cannot get those blocks of to represent them. Much has been said of land to extend their activities. It would be the means of combating erosion. One of the an advantage in the Beerburrum area, where Bills brought down last session dealt very the settlement and ·forestry areas are so extensively with the protection of the banks interlocked, if the Minister would give some of rivers and creeks, the neglect of which in attention to looking over this area to see the past has been responsible for the waste whether it would not be possible to make of much valuable land. That legislation set available to the men who want land in Beer­ up boards or organisations for the protec­ burrum some of the blocks of land at present tion of river banks. It is not m·erely a held by the Sub-Department of Forestry; question of the protection of the banks of and perhaps the sub-department could get rivers or creeks. It is a national matter. A some of the other blocks that are not occu­ pamphlet or report, whatever one may call pied. If that were done the settlers would it, was issued on behalf of the late Dr. Brad­ have the land they urgently need. field that dealt in a national way with soil Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 713

-erosion in Australia. Unfortunately some State, the Burdekin. ·where is there a river persons misunderstood it deliberately or did with greater potentialities for hydro-electric not wish to understand its real significance. or irrigation schemes than the Burdekin ~ It was not merely a question of how many Then, when we go further North, we ha.ve millions of acres of land could be directly the Herbert, the 'l'ully, and the J ohnstonc, all irrigatec1 as the result of diverting the flow rivers that can be harnessed and their waters of certain waters but of diverting water used in other areas for growing all kinds of into certain parts of this vast continent in products. which no water existed, thus attracting rain­ 'This morning I heard the hon. member for fa.ll, which in turn would stimulate the Vvynnum say that sugar-cane could be grown growth of vegetation, which again would without water. Of course, he is entitled to attract a larger rainfall. That is the import­ put forward an a.rgument for harnessing the ant aspect of that report. It was a vast Doboy Creek for irrigation or hydro-electric scheme and involved the expenditure of many purposes. Of course, sugar-cane can be gTOwn millions of pounds. without water-anything can be grown with­ o-ut water-but it cannot always be grown Mr. Macdonald: Changing the climate. successfully. lt is of no use whatever putting li'Ir. RIORDAN: Yes. By reducing the men on the land unless wa.ter can be harnessed tempemture in one locality. The underlying for the careful growing of crops. There can principle was the attraction of rainfall which be 110 half measures about this; if we are as I said, would make it possible for vegeta­ going to thrive a·s a State and if Common­ tion to exist in localities in which now it wealth money is necessary for building up does not grow. It was the conception of a these projects, let us get on with the job, scientific mind. Dr. Bradfield had made let us examine the various projects in order investigations. He '>vas one of the outstand­ to ascertain whether they are practicable. ing men of Australian history. It was long I\ ow is the time for doing these things. \Ve disputed who was responsible for the plan should not leave these matters until the of the Sydney Harbour Bridge but a pro­ soldiers come back, as we did after the last fessor in the Sydney University eventually war, and then ask them to walk onto more discovered that this brilliant Queenslander, Beerbunums. No more do we want to have Dr. Bradfield, ·was the mind responsible for the spectacle of landowners exploiting the the original plan of that structure. people by selling land that is utterly useless for settlement purposes. That sta.te of affa.irs :t;Ir. Decker: He was born in Sandgate. must not be allowed to exist in this country. We have to build ourselves up as a State r;rr. RIORDAN: That is something that and give all aid we can to the men who are Sandgate had tln·ust upon it. One could not coming back to the la'nd, not as greenhorns, blame Dr. Bradfield for that. He was a not as inexperienced men, but as men who great man irrespective of where he was born. will be educated in the ways of the land in 'rhe hon. member for Ea.st Toowoomba. was the various districts to which they will go. born in Bowen, but one cannot blame Bowen I think it wa.s the hon. member for Sandgate for that either. (Laughter.) who spoke about helping farmers who wanted The plan of Dr. Bradfield is va.st but it to use sub-artesian wa.ters for their own calls for investigation. Certainly it involves farms. If it is only a question of doing that, a colossal sum of money, £40,000,000 or then possibly the suggestion I put forward £50,000,000 but to-day we read on the hoard­ the other day could be put into effect. In ings of an appeal being made for ea·ch agricultural area of any consequence, £125,000,000 for the destruction of our experimental and instructional farms could enemies and that is merely a. fraction of the be established, and men could be educated amount to be spent in destruction in a wider on them in order that they will have some area.. When such suggestions are made by chance of success when they take up settle­ such a man as Dr. Bradfield they at least ment on the land. These men could be taught deserve investigation. how to sink wells and how to use the water on theiT farms, and the equipment could be Now to come back to the minor matters of provided by the experimental farm at a' low irrigation. New South ·wales and Victoria. rental so that the man might sink a well on are continually referring to Queensland as his property. a primary-producing State and unless we set out to develop as an industrial State and JUr. Decirer: Well-boring plants. build up secondary industries we must Mr. RIORDAN: Yes. The farmers could accept the ruling by our southern friends be advised by the expert on the experimental that we are a primary-producing Sta.te and farm, the equipment could be hired to them develop it accordingly. at a low rental, and individual irrigation The only way by which this State ca.n plants set up. All these things could be develop in both primary and secondary done to help the farmers if we a.re only industries is by harnessing the waters that courageous enough to gra'pple with the flow in abunda.nce along its various water­ problem. If we do not grapple with it, we courses. \Ve could put forward thousands shall fail as a State and the case for the of projects. \Ve have bountiful lands to which tfiking over of the Sta.tes by the Common­ water c~n be applied. I am letl to believe wealth will be strengthened. that many projects have already been put up To-day many people in the country are to the Commonwea.lth, amongst them being exploiting land in a way that is aga'inst the one for the harnessing in my electorate of best interests of the citizens of the Common­ the largest and fastest-flowing river in the wealth. That is another problem that we shall 714 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

have to contend with. We shall have to Of course, this system was initiated during control within the State the resources of the the time of the Moore Government. land of this country so that they may be used for the development of the State. No The Secretary for Public Lands: They land should be allowed to be ma'de available did not lend any money. to people for personal speculation at the cost of their fellow citizens. We should go Mr MAHER: What happened? on with the job of developing the State from The Secretary for Public Lands: I told every possible angle. you the story in 1941 if you will only take The Department of Public Lands has done the trouble to look it up. a splendid service by continuing this great work. I know the Minister in charge of the Mr. lUAHER: They lent a substantial sum of money. I have forgotten the exact department aims at doing even greater things. total for 1931-32, but it was a considerable If there is anything he overlooks, then we as sum. a committee of this party ·will make repre­ sentations to him and advise him on these The Secretary for Public Lands: I points. I know that he will be big enough should like to hear you or any other hon. to accept our advice when ;he knows it is member of the Opposition quote the amount right. of money made available by the Moore Government during that period for that Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (8.34 p.m.): purpose. I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the paucity of the information Mr. MAHER: That will be quickly ascer­ disclosed in the annual report of the depart­ tained. ment in respect of rural development loans. There is a table that sets out the position of The Secretary for Public Lands: I the fund in the aggregate, but there is no challenge you to do it. dissection or indication of the total amounts Mr. :iliAHER: That will be ascertained of applications for advances for the year overnight and will be given to the hon. 1942-43, nor is there any indication of the gentleman in the morning. A large sum of actual amount lent by the Government by money was made available. Nothing is to be way of special rural development loans. I gained by quibbling over the method by do not see why the information should not be which it was made available. The fact disclosed. It is a l:!ighly illl'jJortant matter, remains that the money was made available especially to members representing country to the graziers for that specific purpose. districts. And the special rural development (Time expired.) loan is of the utmost importance, too. Loans to graziers, selectors, and farmers for the Mr. EDWARDS (Nanango) (8.38 p.m.): purpose of improvements such as fencing, The debate so far has been very interesting ringbarking, the provision of water, and all indeed, particularly the part that related to those things that may be done out of special the urgent need for every help to be given to loans are extraordinarily helpful to the man the man on the land. on the land. These are long-term loans at At 8.39 p.m., cheap rates of interest. I therefore regret to note that during the past 10 or 11 years Mr. DECKER (Sandgate) relieved the the amount made available by the Govern­ Cliairman in the chair. ment for this purpose has shrunk year by year. We are not getting that information Mr. EDWARDS: I was very interested in the annual report and no reasonable excuse to hear the speeches of hon. members oppo­ can be offered for the failure of the depart­ site, particularly the hon. members for ment to give it. We had to ascertain it by Gregory and Bowen. They showed the way of a specific question in Parliament, and Government the difficulties that beset the we were told that the total amount of people in the country. I was also interested advances from the Bureau of Rural Develop­ to observe how kindly the Minister took their ment for 1942-1943 was £96,079 and that the representations. When I made the same advo­ special loans for rural development for that cacy on another matter the other evening, I year amounted to the miserable total of was told by the Secretary for Labour and £4,232. Obviously, there are reasons under Employment that I was only attempting to war-time conditions ·why the amount has been decry the conditions obtaining in the country considerably reduced. Considerable difficulty and that my representations would keep is experienced in obtaining labour to carry settlers from going on the land. The speeches out important work, but this downward move­ delivered by those hon. membeTs only confirm ment was apparent before the war broke out those that have been so often made from this m111 there has been a noticeable disinclination side of the Committee. It pleases me very much on the part of the Secretary for Public Lands to know tha.t they have such an open mind and the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock as to be able to represent to the Government to furnish information to Pnrliament concern­ the cause of these conditions. That, in itself, ing loans for tbese purposes. I do not know may bring about the results we have been of any more useful form of help that the seeking for years. If this debate does no GoYernment can give to the people in the other good, it has served its purpose in that country than loans over long periods, say those representations have been macle. 15 to 20 ycaTs, at a cheap Tate of interest. The hon. members for Gregory and Bowen They enahle the grazing selector to carry out spoke of the conditions necessary to hring much-needed improvements on his property. about not only a more contented population Supply. [5 OcTOBER.] Supply. 715 on the land, particularly in the outback, but is a tremendous amount of timber there yet, to reattract the people to the land there. It although everybody says our softwoods are is not a bit of use endeavouring to get people all going. 'l'hey are going-there is no doubt to remain on the land under the conditions about that-but they have been telling us that prevailing to-day unless some attempt is made for a long time. If people were saying that to offer more attractions to keep them there. 25 years ago it gives us some idea of what timber there must have been there. Timber I was interested, too, to hear the discussion is being cut in those areas, and some very on irrigation. The hon. member for Gregory fine logs can be seen going down the railway. said the scheme propounded by the late Dr. Bradfield involved diverting water that now I believe there is a great wealth of hard­ tlows into the sea fTom the Ingham district wood in the Brisbane Valley. Every possible into the low-rainfall belt of Western Queens­ care must be taken that the fires do not go land. He said that this means-and I have through it. It is tr'Ue much of the timber is Tead the report myself-the resulting evapora­ small, but as the years go on it will grow. I tion would bring about atmospheric condi­ think every Secretary for Public Lands has tions that would subsequently have a bene­ taken an interest in reforestation, and the ficial influence on the rainfall. 'l'here are people are getting more interested in it and districts in Western Queensland that at one helping in no small vvay to increase our supply time received a sufficient rainfall to feed of timber. Many of the settlers are planting stock for certain months of the year, but a number of plots in the various districts that rainfall has now almost disappeared. The 'IVith seedlings from the State nurseries. If lack of rainfall in the backblocks of Queens­ that is encouraged it will help in no small land and Australia mean a tremendous eco­ way in adding to the timber wealth of the nomic loss. I have thought, particularly since country in years to come. I believe that I ha;-e tra;-elled through the western areas, timber could be planted successfully along that successful settlement in that part of the sides of the roads, particularly pine, Queensland and, as a matter of fact, in the which would help to expand the timber indus· backblocks of the other States, too, is a try, ·which is highly essential in the interests question that naturally should receive con­ of the people. Money spent on reforestation sider8tion from the Commonwealth Govern­ is being returned to the State year by year ment. Our national Government should be as the trees grow. interested in establishing a permanent and Fires are a great danger to our forests. contented settlement in areas that now cany We have one advantage over the Southern a very small population. It must be admitted States in that our scrubs, particularly in my that if we attempt to continue our present own and surrounding districts, are very green land-settlement policy settlers will become during the summer months when the fires are fewer and fe·wer, particularly in the Far West bad and during most years are mostly full of and Central West. The inducements that moisture. Such an area provides the best have been mentioned should be given to arrest fire-break one could possibly get. It is a rare the drift, and in this matter the State must occasion on which a fire will go any distance receive the practical support of the national through those scrubs if they are carefully Government. looked after and the timber where the fires Nothing interested me when travelling are likely to start is not chopped down. through our >Yestern areas more than to learn It is true that Victoria has lost a tremend­ the reasons why the population there was ous quantity of timber as a result of huge dwindling and its effect on the business com· fires. There they have to contend with a munity. I will mention one town, Barcaldine. disadvantage that is not to be found in I understand that in days gone by it was a Queensland. They have very dry summer prosperous town. I was told by business months without rainfall, and hot winds blow­ people that businesses that a few years ago ing at 50 or 60 miles an hour. In had cost £800 and £900 could be purchased Queensla.nd the a.reas not fa.r from the coast for £200. That was not because business was could become the largest timber areas in bad but because there had been a drift of Australia, particularly of softwoods. There population from the outback areas to the is no doubt of that. city area. It will be seen how serious the The hon. member for Bowen made the sug­ whole position is. gestion that settlers should have boring In connection with reforestation and the plants lent to them to put down their own forests of this country, the Minister in charge bores, but that would not work out as suc­ of the department is keenly interested in our cessfully as some people ma.y think it would. forests and reforestation, which is certainly Such work is usually done under contract a great and wonderful work, because the more by contractors, who put down the bore it is expanded t;he greater advantage it will casing, a.nd naturally would be much more be to the people, particularly the generations practical in this work than a man who had to come. just come on to a farm, or even a farmer of long standing. The best method would The Se.cretary for Public Lands: You be for the Government through the Depart­ have some very fine plots up in your area. ment of Public Lands to see to it that assistance was given in getting these plants lUr. EDWARDS: My word, we have. I into the various districts in which this water had the opportunity of going through all the was required. The matter of getting a con­ plots in my area and showing the Minister tractor to do the work would be comparatively where they were. I can assure the Committee easy. One can usually get an expert in that there are some very fine plots there, and there kind of work. 716 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

li'Ir. Devrie·s: It is a calling on its own. poorer lands than ours and have achieved great results. Being an infant nation we Mr. EDWARDS: Yes, but frequently the have not yet had time to develop as far as is ma.n has not the capital to invest in a plant. desirable, but I have no doubt that in the To put down a bore even to 200 or 300 feet years to come Australia will become one of requires a rather solid plant. If it could be the greatest agricultural nations of the world. arranged that a boring plant could be alloca­ Every State in it is blessed with large areas ted to a district, it would be a wonderful of arable land, and I should say that Queens­ advantage. It must not be forgotten that it land has millions of acres of land as yet is no use having feed on the land if there is untouched. It is our duty as a Government no water. That has been the cause of the to see that these lands are settled, and for ruin of many a settler. The Government this to be done access must be provided by a must keep in mind all the time that in settle­ progressive road policy, and those who desire ment water is an absolute essential. to take up this land must get every ;help to achieve success. Mr. GRAHAM (Mackay) (8.53 p.m.) : With other hon. m·embers I realise that the The Department of Public Lands has a big vote before the committee is one of the most problem confronting it. Much has been said important with which the Government have about irrigation, electricity, and so on, but to deal. It is from the land that we get the unless the Government give the people some natural wealth of the nation, and to maintain incentive to settle on the land and give them that wealth it is necessary that we approach financial aid, we shall see a continuation of land problems from a more scientific angle what has been taking place over the past few than that from which we may approach other years-a steady drift to the cities. We are difficulties. Much attention has been paid living in a more scientific age than the days in the past, and I hope it will continue to of the old pioneers 50 years ago, when men be paid in the future, to land settlement and went out on the land and broke down scrub development. It is from the land that all with an axe, built bark humpies, and existed on life emanates, and it is to the land we look a mere pittance. To-day, there is no need for to sustain life, and if we are to maintain that, because, if the Government do their job ?ur present standard of living and the -I have no doubt the Queensland Govern­ mcreased dem·ands to be made in the post­ ment will-settlers will be able to use war period, we must approach matters con­ such modern implements as bulldozers and cerning the land with a more scientific outlook other mechanical appliances, such as trac­ than has been evident in the past. The tors, to assist in the clearing and problems of production and closer settlement grubbing of land. Previous speakers ha've must concern the Government of the day, said that irrigation and electrification are and it is only by a sympathetic and intellig­ essential to development. They are, but ent approach that we can expect to realise I think that the main factor in a practicable our desires. I might say< that we as a land policy is to give financial and every Government are fortunate in having in charge other possible aid to prospective settlers. As of the Department of Public Lands a man we have the equipment and machinery at our who one might say comes from the land. disposal in the country now-this war has Naturally, we can expect from him, a.nd I taught us a great lesson in this respect-I think it can be said we are receiving from can visualise that in the years to come bull­ him, a very intelligent handling of his depart­ dozers and other modern appliances will take ment. Of course, that was to be expected. the place of axes and shovels. If tbe Govern­ It is usually found in Labour Governments ment will provide this equipment for the use that only men with the ca.pacity to handle of settlers to help them to develop their land departments are put in charge of them. So more people will be ready to take up land it can be seen that the present Minister is and our productivity will increase. But irri­ occupying a position for which he is well gation is essential. There are numerous areas fitted. in Queensland in which irrigation projects could be undertaken. For instance, if the At 8.54 p.m., Pioneer River, in my electorate, was properly The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. harnessed it could provide electricity for the whole of the requirements of settlements Mr. GRAHAM: I have no doubt the within this valley for agricultural, industrial, Government are considering many aspects and domestic uses. It has been suggested of land settlement. Queensland Govern­ that such a scheme be undertaken and I have ments have done much-and here I rrive no doubt that we shall see a start made there the Moore Government the credit "' to in the very near future. which they are entitled-in setting up We have there, as in other localities in a sound policy of land settlement, but much Qrreensland, millions of gallons of good water more remains to be done. We all agree that flowing away to the sea every year and no use if we are to progress we shall have to do much made of it. The Pioneer River has natural more than we have done in the past. It has advantages that make it suitable for this been said that Australia will become the purpose. There a.re high banks a.nd gorges granary of the Pacific, and we, as Queens­ and if dams were built water could be readily landers, will have to play our part in realising conserved for a hydro-electric scheme. My that objective. In order to do that we shall electorate, with its fine river fiats and have to approach the problem on more thousands of acres suitable for irrigation, scientific lines. Other countries, by the appli­ lends itself admirably to this progressive cation of scientific methods, have developed method of cultivation, and if weirs were built Questions. [6 OCTOBER.] Questions. 717 in the river the water could be stored and used for this purpose. But the first essen­ tial in a scheme of progressive land develop­ ment is to help the settler who desires to go on the land. The hon. member for N anango referred to reforestation. The Queensland Government have done some work in that respect, but, of course, more remains to be done. Areas throughout Queensland are admirably suited for reforestation, and we shall have to main­ tain our production of hardwoods and soft­ woods by helping nature in the matter of replanting. We cannot go on year after year making heavy cuts of timber without making some provision for their regeneration. Certain work has been done on the Eungella Tableland in this respect, a'nd as this area is admirably suited for a large reforestation scheme I hope that the Government will again uudertake the planting of suitable timbers in this area when opportunity offers. In the years to come this country will carry a big population, and I nave no doubt that the Labour Government, with their progres­ sive land policy, will see to it that adequate provision is made for a progressive policy of closer settlement to cater for the require­ ments of a population of 20,000,000 or mote. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 9.8 p.m.