Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 29 SEPTEMBER 1949

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

622 Timber Users' P1·otection Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

THURSDAY, 29 SEPTEMBER, 1949.

The ACTING SPEAKER (The CHAIR· MAN OF COMMITTEES, Mr. :M:ann, Bris· bane) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

ROAD TRANSPORT TAX ON GALVANISED IRON. Mr. SP ARKES (Aubigny) asked the Minister for Transport- '' In view of the inability of the Rail­ way Department to transport galvanised iron from Newcastle to country areas of this State and the difficulties caused thereby for soldier settlers and other primary pro· ducers,- '' 1. Will he give favourable consider a· tion to suspension of the road-transport tax while such condition continues1 '' 2. Will he make representations to the proper authorities in New South Wales regarding similar action in that State 1''

Hon. J. E. DUGGAN (Toowoomba) replied- '' J. and 2. The hon. member's question is based on wrong premises when he refers to 'the inability of the Railway Depart­ ment to transport galvanised iron from Newcastle to country areas of the State.' The acute supply position of galvanised iron is due to the restricted output of galvanised iron in Australia and, at times, inadequate shipping facilities to transport this material to Queensland, which position has been intensified by the recent indus· trial trouble. Whilst the production of galvanised iron has re-commenced at manu­ facturing centres in. New South Wales, I am advised there is not sufficient accumu· lation of stock to warrant sea transport to certain ports in Queensland. The Government has been carefully watching the matter, and it has been decided that where shipping is not available merchants will be permitted to move the galvanised iron, both plain and corrugated, by rail and/or road, subject to written sponsor· ship by the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works. Representations have already been made by the Honourable the Premier to the Honourable the Premier of New South Wales to apply the principle of reduced road transport fees to any con­ signments of galvanised iron which may be brought to Queensland from Newcastle by road, under the sponsorship of the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works, at any time when sea transport is not readily available. Arrangements have also been made for reduced rates of transport permit fees to apply to the Queensland portion of such transport. On previous occasions where shipping and rail facilities were not · available for the transport of galvanised iron to Queensland, both New South Wales and Queensland have authorised ,road transport at a reduced rate of permit fee.'' Questions. [29 SEPTEMBER.) Questions. 623

SUPPLIES AND PRICES OF CATTLE. hon. member that the number of unemployed who drew unemployment ~Ir. SPARKES (Aubigny) asked the benefits in the month of June last repre· Attorney -General- sented 1.1 per cent. of the State's working '' In view of the shortages of fat cattle force.'' due to seasonal conditions, will he give favourable consideration to a reversion to PRICES OF DAIRY PRODUCTS. the Commonwealth practice, while in con· trol of prices, of allowing an increased lllr. PLUNKETT (Albert) asked the price for beef during such adverse seasonal Attorney-General- periods~'' '' 1. Is it a fact, as stated early in this month by the Minister controlling prices in Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­ New South Wales, that the Prices Com­ Acting Premier), for Hon. G. H. DEVRIES missioner for every State had advised (Gregory), replied- against any increase in the price of butter ' 'The suggested increase in the price of and that such advice had been unanimously beef will not have the effect of making accepted by the Ministers concerned~ available fat cattle, if the hon. member's '' 2. Have conferences of such Ministers statement that the short supply is due to been convened at the instance of the Prime adver-se seasonal conditions is correct. Minister to consider the evidence and Will the hon. member guarantee that fat recommendations of the Dairy Advisory cattle will be marketed if the price of beef Committee, and have such conferences on is increased' ' ' each occasion rejected the claim for an increase in the prices of dairy products~'' UNEMPLOYMENT IN QUEENSLAND. Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane-Act- ltlr. PIE (Windsor) asked the Secretary ing Premier), for Hon. G. H. DEVRIES for Labour and Industry- ( Gregory), replied- " In view of the reply to my question of '' 1. The price of butter will be con­ the 15th instant concerning the number of sidered at the Ministers' conference to be unemployeO. in Queensland in May last, in held at Hobart on 30 September, 1949. which he inferred that the high total was due to seasonal unemployment,- '' 2. Conferences of Prices Ministers are not convened at the instance of the Prime '' 1. Is he aware that during the period Minister. ' ' ,Tuly, 1947, to MaJ, 1949, only on two occasions was the number of unemployed m this State less than 50 per cent. of the QUEENSLAND-BRITISH FOOD CORPORATION­ total for the whole Commonwealth~ PURCHASE OF SEED. '' 2. Does he regard the Commonwealth Mr. RUSSELL (Dalby) asked the Pre­ Monthly Review of Statistics which dis­ mier- closes this grave state of affairs as being a reliable record of the unemployment '' Has the Queensland-British Food Cor­ situation from year to year in this State·~'' poration recently purchased sorghum seed from Darling Downs sources~ If so, what Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane) quantity, for what purpose, and at what replied- average price~'' '' 1 and 2. There are two main factors responsible for unemployment in this Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane-Act­ ing Premier), for Hon. E. M. HANLON State. The principal one is seasonal ( Ithaca), r eplied- employment. As I pointed out in my answer to the hon. member on the 15th " Yes. Two thousand and fifty-one bags instant, the seasonal industries of Queens­ have been purchased for sowing on the Cor­ land are unique so far as the Australian poration's central-western properties. The States are concerned. The ebb and flow average price is 2.585d. per lb.'' of seasonal employment is much more severe in this State than in any other State, SCHOOL AND PLAYGROUND SPACE. and unfortunately the slack seasons coincide with the wet season when it is )fr. MORRIS (Enoggera) asked the Sec­ not possible to undertake major works retary for Public Instruction- in the districts concerned to absorb '' 1. How many square feet of school unemployed seasonal workers. The second floor space is considered a minimum main factor is that this State has not the requirement for 500 pupils~ same concentrations of secondary indus­ tries as New South Wales, Victoria, and '' 2. How many square feet of school to a lesser extent South Australia. How­ playground space is considered desirable ever, the hon. member need have no fears for 500 pupils~'' for the economic welfare of this State. Hon. H. A. BRUCE (The Tableland) Economists regard unemployment of 3 to replied- 4 per cent. of the labour force as a normal contingency of the movement between jobs '' 1. Approximately 5,000 square feet. that is characteristic of a healthy economy '' 2. Areas of school grounds cannot be and a free and mobile labour force. In determined by desirable requirements for a this connection I would point out to the specific number of pupils. The area 624 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Water, &c., North-West Q'land.

selected for a school ground will depenu PAPER. on practical considerations such as to po­ graphy, situation and locality, cost, anu The following paper was laid on the table, amount of unoccupied land available.'' and ordered to be printed- Report of Chief Inspector of Factories and RAIL FREIGHT OF GALVANISED IRON FOR Shops for the year 1948-49. NORTH. PERSONAL EXPLANATION. Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) asked the Attorney-General- ]}lr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (11 a.m.), '' Referring to his answer to my question by leave : I wish to make a personal explana­ on 27 September, as he as Attor~ey­ tion. As a direct descendant of a long line General is Ministerial head of the Pnces of bullock-drivers, I vehemently protest at Branch and as the railways are State the percentage quoted by the Minister for owned and operated, will he approach the Transport yesterday-- Minister for Transport-with a request that he waive portion of the freight on gal­ The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I hope vanised iron and piping railed to North the hon. member will not be so facetious as Queensland at least while the present diffi­ to turn his explanation into a comedy. If he cult transport conditions continue~'' has a personal explanation to make, let him make it. Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane-Act­ ing Premier), for Hon. G. H. DEVRIES :ilir. AIKENS: I cannot do any better ( Gregory), replied- than the hon. gentleman yesterday. As the spokesman for the bullock-drivers, I have no '' The question of the transport, freight, voice-- and sale price of galvanised iron and piping, which is required throughout the State, is The ACTlt~G SPEAKER: Order! continuously under investigation, and it is expected that a decision on these matters will be given at an early date.'' WATER RESOURCES OF NORTH-WEST QUEENSLAND.

FIRE HAZARD, BOWEN HoSPITAL. RESUMPTION OF DEBATE. Debate resumed from 22 September (see :illr. P ATERSON (Bowen) asked the Sec­ p. 557) on Mr. Smith's motion- retary for Health and Home Affairs- '' That the Government invite the N 01·th '' 1. Has his attention been drawn to the Australian Development Committee to statement of Dr. Delamothe in the undertake a survey of the water resources 'Courier-Mail' of 28 September, regard­ of the North--West of Queensland with a ing the danger of fire at the Bowen district view to establishing a water conservation hospital and the need for a new hospital~ scheme in that area for the purposes of '' 2. What steps, if any, have been taken closer settlement.' ' to meet this danger and what plans are there for building a new hospital~'' :illr. EVANS (Mirani) (11.14 a.m.): There are two aspe..,ts of the motion before the Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers) replied- House that call for consideration. There is no doubt that the need exists for the develop­ '' 1. Yes. If the Bowen Hospitals ment of the North and North-West, but in Board, of which Dr. P. R. Delamothe is view of the assurance the Premier gave quite now a member is of the opinion that any recently that everything in the garden is further improvement is necessary in the lovely, why the need for the motion~ fire prevention facilities of the Bowen Hospital, the Department will be pleased :ilir. Jesson: The motion does not mean to approve of an allocation of funds for only the North-West of Queensland but refers any further installations that may be neces­ to the North-West of Australia. sary. Mr. EV ANS: I am dealing with state­ '' 2. Sketch plans have been approved ments made by the mover and seconder of for a new hospital at Bowen, but it must be the motion, who went from the Burdekin River realised a structure of the magnitude of to Western Australia. I am _ dealing with the proposed new hospital at Bowen would Queensland; this is a Queensland Parliament. need large quantities of steel and cement, The Labour G•overnment have been in power and a commencement of construction would for the past 30 years hut when the people of not be possible until the materials supply the N'orth, this legion of forgotten people, position improves and the needs of works formed their North Queensland Development at present under construction are met, League in the hope of getting some help from otherwise the completion of such works the Government they were told by the Govern­ would be jeopardised and would result in ment that everything in the North was lovely, many incomplf!te structures. The Govern­ that there was progress there, and that in ment has recently had to import quantities fact North Queensland had had a greater of cement and steel from overseas in con­ share of public money than any other part nection with works, which action was of the State. As I proceed I intend to prove necessitated owing to the difficulties in that here again, on the eve of an election, obtaining the necessary building materials.'' the Government are a Government of promises. Water Resources of [29 SEPTEMBER.) North-West Queensland. 62&

Even members of the Government party When the Premier returned from North have said that they were a Government of Queensland in July last he spoke of promises. I shall refer to some of their spectacular plans that the Government had promises a litt.Le later on. Some o·f the in mind for the development of the North members of the Government party have He also s~id t~a t he had had only feebl~ said that their land policy-and that representatwns m the North and that in the is the main policy of any Government­ North everything in the garden was lovely. is antiquated, that it calls for review, But the members of his own party have said for the appointment of a Commission that the policy of the Government are to show the Government where they antiquated. are wrong. Knowing that, knowing their faults and knowing that they have neglected ll'Ir. Theodore: Who said it? the North, the Government are still satisfied lir. EV ANS: The hon. member for to come along now on the eve of an election Bm·coo ·for one. and make another big promise. We have only to analyse the population llr. TI1eodore: That is not true. figures for North Queensland to find out what ll'Ir. EV ANS: The hon. member said it has happened during the time the Labour himself. He forgets what he says. He Government have been in power over a period wanders along, but '' Hansard'' 'is here and of 30 years. ]'or instance, in the north­ I will tell him what he said. He said, "We western division the population declined from shall have to take action and we shall have 16,486 to 14,936 between the years 1933 and 1947 and in the Peninsula division from to do something.'' All he is concerned about on this motion is to mislead the people of 3,109 to 2,078. the North again by saying to them that the The Government talk about new States. Government have plans but when he gets into I support the idea of new States. The Caucus an~ the Q.C.E. crack the whip he does Premier said that when the financial and what he 1s told, the same as he has done economic position justified them there would ever since he has been here. be new States, but if the present Government remain in power for the next 10 years the The North Australia Development Com­ only new States that North Queensland will mittee, which it is suggested should make get from such a socialistic Government will this investigation, was appointed about three be States with delegated powers. That will years ago by the Prime Minister, Mr. Chifiey. be the policy of the Labour Government-a It consists of representatives of the Common­ central Government with powers delegated to wealth, Queensland and Western Australia_ subordinate States somewhat along the lines Here is an extract from an article written of the autonomy now granted to local author­ by Mr. Harry Summers, who is acknowledged ities. to be a very prominent investigator- Apart from the Mt. Isa mining there has '' Many people have come to the conclu­ been a general decline in industries in the sion t~at tbe North Australia Development North. In a broadcast address on 30 May Committee was only a piece of political last the Premier said- appeasement to the early post-war clamour for a policy of security by settlement. '' In co-operation with the Federal 'l'hey see the Government, with scares of Government, the Queensland Government war forgotten, forcing fancy social schemes was steadily pursuing a co-ordinated plan on the crowrled cities while people walk off for the development of North Australia. the land and that is the basis of all our This area included all of Queensland, north prosperity and protection.'' of the 'l'ropic of Capricornia. It had infinite possibilities, but adequate water, efficient That is the story which Mr. Summers puts transport, and ample electric power were into a few words very nicely-they walk off essential for its development . . . . . The the land. We must remember that the land developmental schemes the Government has is the basis of our prosperity. in train have awakened the pundits in Mr. Summers goes on to state- local editorial offices to the economic value '' That belief is strengthened by the of North Que,ensland, the richness of its Prime Minister's refusal even now to make natmal resources, and its vast possibil­ public the committee's report.'' ities.'' The hon. member for Carpentaria apparently If the development schemes of the Govern­ has no confidence in his own Government. ment have aroused or awakened the pundits Yet they have been on the Treasury benches in local editorial offices they have not pro­ for 30 years! Why has he confidence in the moted any action on the part of the Socialist North Australia Development Committee, Government, because they are today and have which has never published a report on any been for the 30 years that they have been in investigation it has made~ power, concerned only with Brisbane and the When moving the motion the hon. member precincts of Brisbane, and North Queensland for Carpentaria stated- has been a legion of forgotten people. '' Even if a barrel of tar was brought llr. 'l'heodore: You did pretty well in the into this Assembly and spread along it sugar industry during the 30 years that the nothing could make it blacker than what Labour G•overnment were in power. hon. members opposite have painted.' ' llr. EV ANS: I did pretty well by my Then he went on to refer to Mr. Katter, own efforts and initiative. chairman of the Cloncurry Shire Council, and ~26 Water Resources of [ASSEMBLY.] North-West Queensland.

:said that the statements that were made by transport facilities, water conservation, and Mr. Katter were vicious lies. I know Mr. the building of harbours in the Gulf. He Katter very well. He is a very bright boy admitted i~ his speech that the policy of his .and is chairman of the Cloncurry Shire Government, particularly the land policy, had .Council. In years past I have on many occa­ failed. sions listened with interest to his speeches on The hon. member went on aud said on the North and North-West Queensland. I another occasion-he is like a sparrow on understand that he has political ambitions. a rubbish dump, he jumps from heap to he.ap­ .Evidently the hon. member is endeavouring local authorities had the opportunity of taking to kill Mr. Katter because he is truthful and advantage of the splendid subsidy scheme of honest. Mr. Katter came down to the Local the Government. He said that in his own Authorities Association annual conference and electorate the shire borrowed £59,000 and they joined with all those people who show interest got £9,000 subsidy, and said, '"Look how in the people of North Queensland and who good the Government are to the people in the work for North Queensland without almost country! '' I am going to give you some any financial consideration. He said, ''We figures that are definitely linked up with the have to do something for the people of the Government because the money comes from North-West. The people are leaving the the developmental t ax. I do not want to trust North-West. " He mentioned Boulia and other to my memory, so I will read these figures. towns as instances. He said, ''What has This is how the hon. member for Carpentaria :happened in the North-West is a national says the West and the North-West can be .calamity.'' developed. These paymelnts are made from Mr. Lynch was at the conference with Mr. unemployment relief taxation-The Income Ratter. I know Mr. Lynch very well and (Unemployment Relief) Tax Act of 1930 .no-one contradicted Mr. Katter. A resolu­ and The Income (State, Development) Tax tion was carried at that conference that it Act of 1938. The latter Act was a change be a recommendation to the Government to in name only, as the same tax was collected .appoint a Minister for the North-West. Does under it. When uniform taxation was intro­ that denote satisfaction~ Does that show duced by the Commonwealth Government that the chairman of the Cloncurry Shire during the war-the States Grants (Income -council is satisfied with the actions of this Tax Reimbursement) Act--the State Govern­ ,socialistic GovernmenH It certainly does not. ment were allowed an annual grant equal to Mr. Katter has political visions, visions of half the total amount of income tax and the -coming here to put the case for the people State development tax they had collected in who are described as the lost legion of the 1940-41 and 1941-4 2. The State development North, to see whether some assistance cannot tax was 38 per cent. of the total. The !he afforded them. grant from the Commonwealth was The hon. member for Carpentaria also said £5,821,000 per annum from and including t hat the Premier had stated that if any hon. 1942-43 to 1945-46. Thereafter it increased m{\Ill.ber could suggest a sound scheme for the annually and was £8,826,000 in 1948-49, the North-West it would be put into operation. portion attributable to State development tax Have not the Government got the Co-ordinator­ (38 pex cent) being £3,353,880. Subsidies General's Department to guide th em ~ H ave for 1948-49 totalled £1,149,544, equal to only they not had in their ranks for years represen­ 34 per cent of State development tax receipts. tatives from those western areas who should I asked a question in the House on this 'know the difficulties and the problems and the matter and the. figures supplied showed that need for helping the people in the· North­ Brisbane in the last year, 1948-49, had West, and· of keeping them there~ Of course approved loans of £116,080 with subsidy loans they have. This Socialist Gove.rnment in of £590,695. Queensland are like the Socialist Government Population, 36.5 per · cent. in the, Federal sphere. It is not the members Percentage of subsidies, 51.3. '()Ver here ; I know members over there who Other cities­ want to help. The. hon. member for Kennedy Approved loans £121,651 fought to get the pollution of the Herbert Subsidies .. £169,242 River stopped, and failed. I know other That is a considerable percentage drop corn- members who have done similar things. The pared with Brisbane. member for Carpentaria wants things done in t he West. The Government and their members Population, 19.4 per cent. are controlled by the Q.C.E., there is no doubt Percentage of subsidy, 14.7. about that. They are told, ''Don't talk about Towns and shires (including the Car­ place betting; you are not allowed to; we will pentaria Shire Council)­ Tun this business; we will go to the Press Approved loans £571,122 and crucify you and put you out of Parlia­ Subsidies . . £389,607 ment; you 'wipe! the whole business and Population, 44.1 per cent. shut up.'' Percentage of subsidy, 34. Mr. Aikens: And the Q.C.E. is run by Brisbane, with 36.5 per cent. of the popula­ Fallon and Ted Walsh. tion, received 51.3 per cent. of subsidies, and towns and shires, with 44.1 per cent. of the Jllr. EV ANS: God h elp us with those men population, received only 34 'per cent. Is this Tunning Queensland! a policy of decentralisation~ The hon. member for Carpentaria also said Now let me take Carpentaria. Brisbane that North Australia should be developed received a subsidy of £5 Is. 9d. for every over a ten-year period, and he suggested pound borrowed, other cities received subsi­ subsidies of £5,000,000 per annum to provide dies of £1 7s. lOd. The towns and shires Water Resources of [29 SEPTEMBER.) North- West Queensland. 62 1 received 13s. 7d., but, Mr. Acting Speaker, Then he comes along during the debate on wait till I tell you about Carpentaria, where the Address in Reply, and says that every­ it is proposed to develop transport and other thing in the garden is lovely, that the people facilities and amenities. The total subsidies are satisfied. Now, we have this motion moved. received by shires in the Carpentaria by him, in which he virtually says- electorate were between 3s. and 4s. in the £1. '' The Queensland Government will not Are these people out there getting justice~ help me. We are going to pass the buck These figures are correct and are based on and we are going to ask this committee to. figures used by Mr. Smith in his speech on have an investigat~on. '' the Address-in-Reply. He went further and_ said- lUr. Theodore: Tory Governments. ' 'I recommend that Cabinet appoint a Royal Commission to decide whether we Mr. EVANS: The hon. member does have been misguided in our land policy in what he is told. My contention is that so respect of closer settlement. '' long as the. hon. member has a job as member Why appoint a Royal Commission~ There are of Parliament, if they tell him they must 30-odd members on the Government side, and take their houses away, he would agree to I say they have only a few amongst them it, but he stands here on this floor and who have any knowledge of land problems. seconds this motion while the people out West Most of the advice the Government have had are getting further behind than ever before. has been from public servants, and it has I could go on and give the House further been wrong, while the advice offered by men figures but I might bore hon. members and who have made good on the land the hard I will content myself with saying that from way has been disregarded, and even had the· 1932 to 1948-49 Brisbane received in subsidies Government wanted to follow that advice, they more than half the money distributed in would not have been allowed to do so. Queensland. Notwithstanding this, the Pre­ Then the hon. member for Carpentaria mier will stand in this Chamber and tell us &aid- that everything in the garden is lovely and the people of the North are satisfied. The '' I speak on land matters with sincerity people of the North are not satisfied with because I see the diminishing population.' ' their rspresentation or the treatment they The hon. member for Herbert cannot stand have received. The Government may go in this somersaulting by his colleague, and find& for redistribution of electorates; they may it necessary to walk out of the Chamber. retain the reins of government, but the people I come now to the hon. member for Barcoo, in the North will not be represented in this for whom we all have '1 great ileal of respect. Chamber any more than the people in the He .said- Mirani electorate were represented here when their member was the Deputy Leader of the ' 'I am concerned about the recommen­ Government. He was put on the scrap-heap dation of the Commissioner for Railways. but Labour now has him out trying to win that an expenditure of £12,000,000 to· parliamentary seats back for them, notwith­ £14,000,000 be made, and amazing as it is standing that he could not hold his own. that expenditure does not reach beyond the precincts of the city of Brisbane.'' Later, the hon. member for Carpentaria said that the Government were going to He went on to say- provide the necessary amenities and that " I feel that too little consideration has the water problems of the West were not been given to areas outside the city area. being overlooked, that preliminary investiga­ The time has arrived when this Government tions had been made and that when staff must surely review their antiquated land. became available plans would be formulated laws.'' for water and irrigation projects. But the There is another man who knows the West,. hon. member must not forget that Labour and who has learnt the problems of the West has been in power for 30 years and the West from experience. has bee:n languishing for 30 years. Just on The hon. member for MaTanoa is another the eve of an election they saddle up the who has had experience of the policy of this: members for Carpentaria and Herbert again, Socialist Government in connection with land thinking that they are pretty good horses settlement in the West. Land settlement is and so they will send them along. But look important to this State. Eighty per cent. of at the promises of Labour! Look at what our wealth comes from it, yet although there­ they are going to do when staff is available! are a few men on the Government side who But it has not been available for 30 years. have knowledge of what is needed, their Immediately the election is over these recommendation must have heen disregarded promises are put aside. because, in desper(ltion, tt ose men have risen I refer again to what the hon. member for in this Chamber and attacked the policy of Carpentaria has said. On another occasion, their own Government. before the Q.C.E. had told him what he must This is only a pious motion. There is no say, he said-and I want the hon. member for meaning in it. There is no action behind it. Herbert to listen very carefully to this- It is not the desire of the Government to '' I am prepared to get up in this take any action. It is only an endeavour to Chamber and say, as I have said before, appease the people in the forgotten area until that the lack of population in the West the next elections are over. Why mislead can be attributed to the Government's land those people~ Why not tnll them the true policy.'' pDsition~ We know what a great job those Water Resources of [ASSEMBLY.] North-West Queensland.

pioneers are doing. Vle know that the people punch-drunk and I have heard of them being in the North and North-West have not the drought-drunk but the people in the West amenities that are availablP. in the cities, t.hat and the North say that they are promise­ they are suffering in every way. drunk. Although promises have been made My own el~cto rate is not so far in the by this Government they will not go cl.own North, yet factori3s there artJ suffering great with the people any more. They do not ·disabilities. One factory wa.s making dura­ trust the Government any more. bestos there and want ed to send it to Bris­ Transport facilities are needed by the bane. The freight charged from Mackay to people in the North-West of Queensland and Brisbane was over £8 a ton, yet you can get in fact all over Queensland. In that regard durabestos sent from BriRbane to Mackay for the hon. member fo•r Carp.entari.a agr,ees £4! with me because he said that transport was the crux of the whole position. I had the The men in the firm I am speaking of are honour of being associated with a deputation earning down to Brisbane to commence that asked for a railway line to Nebo liut operations, as a matter of fact they have we were told that the Government could not closed 'down becaus.e they find that get steel. The only way to bring about the in Mackay the freight charges they have development of the North and hold the to pay are such that they cannot compete populatiJn up there is to provide transport with their southern rivals. Why is a con­ facilities. The only way to get steel is to cession granted for t raffic one way and not import sufficient rails to build railways. The the other~ The Government are responsible Government are lacking in business acumen for this ; they do not want industries in and that is why the country is in the position the North. it is .in today. The only way for us to get ~Ir. Aikens: They are driving industry to where we should be is by importing steel. ·out of the North. The Government are not importing enough steel. They should import steel and build .Mr. EVANS: We hear that the Alma­ railways to where the coal is and' to where den-Etheridge railway line is going to be the other wealth of this country is. I am reconditioned. Who were responsible for not concerned with the profit angle of the bringing that matter before this House~ railway venture because I believe that the 'The hon. member for Mundingburra and I. present method of compiling the balance Did Labour; members opposite bring the sheet of the Railway Department is all matter up W I raised the question myself wrong. It is decidedly unfair to present a and I have a letter from the Minister for balance sheet showing only the money revenue Transport notifying me-- of the railways because taxation, develop­ ment, the unearned income from the land, ~Ir. Collins interjected. and many other factors are never taken l'llr. EV ANS: The Minister was against into consideration. it. When he went up North and saw that Speaking to this pious motion, I say that he was going to be thrown on the rubbish if you want to develop Queensland you must heap he came back and got it pushed provide transport facilities. Those facilities through Cabinet. E ven now we have only a are needed not only for the development of promise. The hon. member for Mundingburra wealth but for defence purposes. We shall :and I brought the matter up 18 months ago. not get a railway in my electorate from The Minist·er who int erjects opposed it and Mackay to the hinterland because the other Ministers opposed it. The Minister Government are not big enough to do their for Transport a dmitted that he opposed it job. and the Government have-- The Government can buy steel today in sterling countries. We were able to find .Mr. COLLINS: I rise to a point of order. money to prosecute the war, as we should, The hon. member for Mirani is misquoting and we should have continued to find it had me entirely in saying that I opposed the the war gone on; and we must get money extension of the Etheridge railway. As every to develop the country, to provide transport hon. member in this House knows, I have facilities. It will repay us handsomely­ advocated it ever since I have been a member over and over again. What would have been of this Assembly. the position in North Queensland had rail­ ways, roads, and bridges not been built in The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member for Mirani must accept the the past~ assurance of the Secretary for Agriculture .Mr. Tlleodore: Who built them? and St·ock. .Mr. EV ANS: The people built them. }[r. EVANS: I certainly will. I made There is only one action that the Govern­ that statement as a result of what has been ment can take-get the rails. I do not care told to me in North Queensland. how dear they are, because if you can get As I said, this matter was brought up by rails and build railway lines you can the hon. member for Mundingburra by way encourage the establishment and develop­ of a question. I wrote to the Minister f or ment of industry, including the establishment Transport and I can show his reply. An of steel works. You must have steel. election is on the horizon and the Govern­ The .Government live a day at a time. Ever ment have seen fit to make another promise since I have been in the House I have been at least. We have heard of people being convinced of the fact that the Government Water Resources of [29 SEPTEMBER.] North- West Queensland. 629 lack initiative, energy, and imagination. galore, strings of them, but let me tell him Unfortunately, the Government are controlled that in my own electorate water is running by people outside. to waste in the Pioneer River and the people are not allowed to put in weirs themselves. JU:r. Power: You know that is not true. Let us have action and above all let us have Mr. EV ANS: It is disclosed in their plat­ men of action, no more promises. form-they are controlled from outside and Mr. Foley: You are afraid of what I they must bow to that authority. Even the will tell you. hon. member for Port Curtis was told to pipe down, that even if he could win )lr. EV ANS: I am not afraid of anything plebiscites the Government could win his the hon. gentleman may say. seat without him and he would not be endorsed if he did not pipe down. Mr. Aikens: You are afraid of my second barrel and that is why I did not get the call. )Jr. COLLINS: I rise to a point of order. The statement by the hon. member for Mirani lllr. EV ANS: The hon. gentleman will is a pure falsehood; there is no truth in again give us a long list of promises, but let what he says. us have no more blue-prints. I repeat again, as one who has lived in the North almost Mr. Pie: What did they say about you all his life, and as one who has worked in the in Cook~ various industries in the North with all classes Mr. Collins: What did they say about of people, that the promises of the Govern· me~ ment won't go down any more. Unless the G-overnment take action on their promises they Mr. Aikens: You are on the right track, will not last very long. Ernie. Do not take any notice of that inter­ ruption. Hon. T. A. FOLEY, Mr. RUSSELL, and Mr. AIKENS rising-- Mr. EV ANS: I do not take any notice of them. The ACTING SPEAKER: The Secretary for Public Lands and Irrigation! Let me summarise my points: the h011 . member for Barcoo said on numerous lllr. Aikens: Don't you want the ()Ccasions that the Government's policy was second barreH (Opposition interjections.) wrong. He complained that most of the public money was being spent in Brmbauc. Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! It seems to me that there is an organised The hon. member for Carpentari:1 spoke attempt by the Opposition to disrupt the ()£ the governmental failure to develop North proceedings of this House and make them a Australia and in this Parliament he severely burlesque. criticised the Government for it. Ue we:at -on to say- Mr. Aikens: Tb'e only organised attempt "We must revolutionise our Gov'lrn­ is your endeavour to stop them from speak­ ment policy. Past policies seem to have ing. been a failure. It will be necessary to change our outlook on northern matter,1. The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I will Sweeping changes will be necessat-y. '' deal with the hon. member very drastically if he does not obey the Chair. I understand that I n contradistinction to that, on a previous there has been a working arrangement be­ occasion, in a debate on the Address in RPplv, tween the various Whips and as a result a he said that everything in the North was roster of speakers has been drawn up. If lovely, that the Government ·would lle•"elop the Opposition wish to disregard that arrange· the State's resources-or at least the shirP ment they should get up and say so. I have councils would do so. If that is the sort of that list before me. That has always been statements we are to have irom m.:>mbers the custom, and if the Opposition wish to dis­ of the Government party, by hon. members regard that arrangement they should say so. who are forced to say what they do not want to say, what is to happen to North Mr. Ailrens: I am not a party to any <;)ueensland ~ agreement. I am here as a member of this In conclusion I implore the Government House demanding my rights as a member. to give serious consideration to the provision The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! If I of transport facilities in the N onh :md 1he have to speak to the hon. member again-I West. The West is a great country, tl1u North is a great country. Queensland is will not wam him again-I shall have to the greatest State in Australia. name him for disregarding the authority of the Chair. I want to say to the hon. mem· The only solution to this national calam1ty ber for Mundingburra, who has been here mentioned by Mr. Katter is to build !reil­ for a number of years now, that the practice ways and you also must import steel. Let us of arranging the panel of speakers by the have water conservation. I can see that Whips has operated for many years, and he the Secretary for Public Lands and Irriga­ must be a party to it. I do not want any tion is breaking his neck to speak. He will hon. member to say OT suggest that I am one­ tell us about water conservation, but the sided or cockeyed. I am simply working under Government have done nothing. He ·will an arrangement established here for a num­ give us more promises. He has promises ber of years. 630 Water Resources of [ASSEMBLY.] North- West Queensland. ,

Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby-Secre­ North of Queensland when you could not go tary for Public Lands and Irrigation) (11.53 on flaC~-horse during the rainy period from a.m.): The speech of the hon. member for Inmsfa1l to Jordan Creek or Babinda or the Mirani was one of the most dismal attempts Tully; you were isolated in any of those that I have heard in this House. He has towns because there was no road communi­ tried to tell the people that no development cation, thank~ ~o th~ bankrupt policy of anti­ has taken place in North Queensland under Labour Admm1s1 ration. Now you can go to a Labour Government. As a matter of fact, an_y part of North Queensland during the he knows, and the great bulk of population ramy season and there are good bitumen roads in North Queensland, excepting perhaps the throughout the whole of the North. younger generation, know that prior to The same thing applies to settlement. Labour's being elected in 1915 North Queens­ There were a few isolated settlements here land was like an oasis in the desert, with no and there vnth a very small amount of pro­ rail communication with the South, and com­ duction. The whole of the rain-forest belt pletely isolated from the rest of the State. in the North-Atherton, Millaa Millaa, It. is only from 1915 that one can trace the Malanda-was pure rain-forest maiden scrub. development of the North step by step and What is the position today~ It was not year after year until we see it now as a cleared by a cyclone or some act of God; it well-developed part of the State. was cleared by man as a result of the encour· I would remind hon. members that when agement given by a Labour Administration; Labour gained the Treasury benches in 1915 and now we have thriving communities and there existed what was known as the missing industries operating through that area. Hon. link between North and South Queensland. members cannot tell me anything about the If one attempted to travel from Brisbane to North. I worked in it in the days when you Townsville one got only as far as Mackay and had to hump your swag or go by Cobb & then had to tranship from rail to steamer to Company's coach. Today the position is go to Townsville. Today it is possible to vastly different, owing to Labour's policy. travel by rail from Brisbane to Cairns with­ Coming to the question .of railways, there out getting off the railway. That has been was an isolated community at Mount Isa and one result of the northern developmental pro­ there was some real wealth coming from gramme of the Labour Government since that silver-lead and copper. What did we do'f uate. The :first attempt the Government made Did we hesitate to develop that district, which was to bridge that missing link and, as I said, is part of the North-WesH We immediately you can now go right from Brisbane to set to to develop it by building a railway. It Cairns by rail. It will be only a matter of is true that the Mount Isa Company gave a year or so when one will be able to travel certain guarantees, of some of which it has from Brisbane to Cairns by road. been relieved since, I understand. We have another thriving community now in the Mr. Macdonald: Who do you say built heart of the desert. that railway~ The same applies to the sugar industry. Mr. FOLEY: It was built by Labour. The hon. member for Mirani said, ''What did ]fr. Macdonald: It was not. Nothing of we do~' ' He said that he did his share to the sort. gain the benefits from the sugar industry by his own hard work. The Labour Govern­ Mr. I<'OLEY: Every rail put into that ment also did their share-and a pretty big line was put in by Labour. Much has been share-towards making it possible for the said about transport. What method of trims­ sugar farmer to live in North Queensland. I port was there to the Far North and Gulf remember the time when the cane inspector prior to Labour's getting into power~ It was of the C.S.R. Company was king of every­ left to the Theodore Government-a Labour thing he surveyed. I remembe1 the time Government-to make an arrangement with when t}.te farmer was getting lls. a ton for John Burke & Co., under which a subsidy his cane. A different position exists today, was paid to it for its boats to call at the and only as a result of the legislation passed eastern ports of Cape York Peninsula and by this Government-cane-prices legislation serve the Gulf ports. That agreement has setting np a Central Sugar-cane Prices Board, been renewed from time to time with increas­ and legislation under which we arranged the ing cost to the Government. transfer to the growers of many of these mills that were operated by private companies, Now we come to the Mackay district, part with the result that they now virtually con­ of which is represented by the hon. member trol all their own industry. All that was for Mirani. I can remember the time-and done as a result of Labour's legislation. hon. members opposite can remember it, too­ when every pound of sugar shipped from Mr. Nicklin: Can you explain why, after Mackay had to be taken out in a barge and all this alleged development by Labour, the rehandled again and again. That has all population is leaving those parts of the gone by the board. Now you have an up-to­ country~ date harbour as a result of a Labour repre­ ltlr. FOLEY: I can give the hon. member sentation of Mackay over the years. That one simple illustration. I have scratched for was virtually pushed onto the council at that tin in various parts of North Queensland. place. I knocked about the North earning my living. On the question of settlement also let me At that time you could go to Gladstone look back. I have just turned · 60 and I can Creek and various other places and start remember as a young man working in the out on your own initiative. The storekeeper Water Resources of [29 SEPTEMBER.) North-West Queensland. 631 would grub-stake you. There were thousands land. I~ is J?Ointed out that 60 per cent. of of men operating under those conditions the regwn IS more than five miles from There were places where you could get ten, permanent wa;ter; in other words, all they :fifte.en, twenty and up to seventy pounds of have been domg for a number of years is tin to the dish in some of the richer spots taking up a tremendous tract of country and under surface conditions. The same applied in the summer months using the small water­ to the lodes. There were mineral deposits holes and the grass that exists and after that that the average gouger could work with very depending on the rivers and permanent water­ little equipment and the result was that the holes for the grazing of their stock. thousands of miners throughout the North Mr. Sparkes: Be fair: the prices of made that a vast population area but the cattle did not warrant the development of people worked under the most difficult con­ ditions. that country. These deposits are worked out today. One Mr. FOLEY: The point is that if you cannot go to any of these creeks or gullies have an area of 1,000 square miles and such as Smith's Creek or Return Creek and improve it you will profit by the increased earn a living today by what is known as tin­ carrying capacity that results. The hon. scratching or surface operations. The same member has probably improved his own pro­ applies to the lode deposits. To work these perty and thereby increased its carrying requires expensive equipment necessitating capacity, but very little has been done by operations on a company basis. As the the lessees in this part of the State to help result of this, thousands and thousands of themselves by improving their properties. The men who previously got a living there are Whitehouse Commission recommended that a now forced to earn their living elsewhere. research station be established in the region, That is one factor that was responsble for adequately staffed and equipped to undertake the decrease in population. fundamental research into problems arising from pasture management, fodder conserva­ Then there were railway construction jobs tion, crop production, local animal husbandry, such as the building of the railway line to soil deficiencies, water resources and other Forsayth and to Herberton right through to similar matters affecting that region. As an the lOO-mile peg where there is now a promis­ instance, the tick has never been dealt with ing township. An army of men worked on adequately by th~ stock-owners or local these construction jobs in those days but they authorities in the areas. are now finished. As I say, the co~ntry has been developed as the result of the work As to irrigation, it is true that the North­ of the Labour Government. One could go W est is an area drained by many rivers, but ()n for a long time in the same strain. There there is still a good deal of work to be carried was absolutely no need for this Government out before we can assess the true value of to put any motion on the Parliamentary busi­ many of them for irrigation. ness sheet to mislead the public of North Mr. Sparkes: What communication has Queensland. As a matter of fact, the motion that country to which you are referring now~ deals with the North-West of Queensland What railway service has it~ inasmuch as it states - ' ''That the Government invite the North Mr. l<'OLEY: I am telling hon. members Australian Development Committee to what we are doing to make communication undertake a survey of the water resources possible later. of the North-West of Queensland with a The northern and north-western river view to establishing a water conservation systems comprise many rivers. One import­ scheme in that area for the purposes of ant system is the Mitchell and its tribu­ closer settlement.'' taries. The W alsh, the Lynd, the Tate and We know that the north-west portion of the the Palmer are all branches of the Mitchell State, known as the Gulf Country, is more or and I shall indicate what we are doing in less isolated. It has been so for years. We connection with that river system, which is know that the industry there is the raising really one of the gateways of the North-West, of beef cattle. The area covers many millions and I shall mention the possibilities that can ·Of acres, to be exact 57,000,000 acres of some follow from the work we are doing. This of the best grazing country. Portion of it, vast area is drained by the Gregory, which 7,800,000 acres of red and black soil, is some has permanent flowing water; the Leichhardt of the best grazing country in Australia. with abundant permanent waterholes; the We have already been investigating the possi­ Gilbert, which has good waterholes outside bility of improving that district and the the main channel; the Flinders, which has W_hitehouse Commission was appointed by very few permanent waterholes, and the th1s Government to go into the water-facility Nicholson, Alexander, Cloncurry and Norman requirements in that district to indicate the Rivers. We have not yet made any investiga­ place to set up an experimental station to tion of the Gregory for irrigation purposes. investigate all the factors that cause the but we are now building up a staff of irriga­ loss of cattle that take place there every tion engineers and officers. Before any effici­ year. The Whitehouse report has been pre­ ent irrigation plan can be developed we must sented to this Parliament and we are now have staff to obtain the necessary informa­ endeavouring to implement the recommenda­ tion. tions in that report. Accordinl! to the Whitehouse report, the Let me point to the development that is main flow of the Gregory River starts from being done there by the pers0n leasing the the Great Springs in the Old Limestones on 632 Water Resources of [ASSEMBLY.] North- West Queensland. the edge of the Barkly Tableland and flows e;-ery tributary in that river system in the per_manently all the way to the sea. The North-West of the State. They must make mam channel and one only of its distribu­ these investigations before they can determine taries, Beames Brook, flow throughout the the extent and the possibilities of irrigation. year and reach the salt water. Stream-gauging, for instance, is one of the most important factors in determining ~lr. Sparkes: In what year was the possibilities of irrigation. Today we have in rep0rt· made~ that area 36 stations reporting daily and Mr. FOLEY: I think 1947. The other assessing the water flow so as to provide the distributaries carry away storm water only, basic data required for our engineers before when the Gregory comes down in flood. This they can even think of recommending or e~·en river on the edge of the Barkly Tableland reporting on any of those .sites. has in the vicinity of a 500,000-gallon flow The first step towards the investigation of but a few miles down that flow decreases irrigation in the North-West has already considerably and consequently until the whole begun in what is known as the Mitchell River of the circumstances of the flow of that river basin. If hon. members will make a study are determined-circumstances as to evapora­ of the north-west rivers they will see that the tion and other factors-by irrigation experts, Mitchell River basin is one of the most no Government would be justified in carrying important. Already we have constructed a out irrigation work in that area. number of weirs and we have a report, just presented-which will be implemented at a • Throughout the length of the Leichhardt later date-involving the building of two River there is a string of good, permanent major projects, one on the Barron River and waterholes. From aiJout 18 miles below the the other on the Walsh River, costing in the falls at places known as .Tudy Lago0n and vicinity of £7,000,000. Bullock Lagoon and on the western side the streams lead away into the plains to the Let me give hon. members some idea of Albert. The bed of the Leichhardt River what has already been done. Sites of weirs consists of sand and in that we have the have been determined and weirs constructed problem of a river holding vast quantities on Emera:ld Creek and Granite Creek in the of water only during the four summer Mareeba area and on Sandy Greek in the months when· the rainfall is available. Dimbulah area. The Flinders has the largest catchment ~fr. Sparkes: They are a long way away. area of all these inland stTeams but the channels are not as deep as in the Gregory · lUr. FOLEY: They are not a long way away. They are part of the north-west river and the Leichhardt. There is a dearth of per­ system. I suggest that the hon. member get manent wat·erholes althou~h the tributaries, a map and study them. He will find that the Cloncurry and the Saxby, are better this is one of the gateways into the North, provided than the river itself. through which cattle will come forward for The N orma!n River is a single-channel use. stream with n0nnal tributaries. It has a I was speaking of the development that is number of good, permanent wuterholes. The Gilbert presents different characteristice going on. At the present time there are weirs altogether to the type of stream found under construction on the Walsh River at throughout most of the West and the Cape Dimbulah, on Eureka Creek at Boonmoo and York Penins•ula. Some distanc'e north oi Tinaroo Creek in the Mareeba area. The Croydon it is .i oined by the E inasleigh River, Nullinga dam site on the Walsh River about a stream of the same magnitude. 161 miles from its mouth has been recom­ mended for construction and is to be What I have said gives a brief idea of considered in connection with the Barron­ the main river systems in that area. I now wish to deal with our work. W hat have we Walsh River scheme. done in the development of that vast area I want to emphasise here that we have by way of irrigation~ I would point out already been working on a number of pro­ that as far back as 1935 we had what is jects that are all part of the bigger project known as the Chewko area reported upon, with a view to opening up a gateway into f ollowed by the Mareeba-Dimbulah area the north-western part of the State. The itself. In the investigation of 1936 four result will be that of 32,000 acres of irrigable schemes were investigated. Emerald Creek land in the Mareeba and Dimbulah areas it is was one and the dam there has been con­ estimated that there will be enough water structed. In the Paddy Green area west of availa.ble from the two projects to irrigate Mareeba we are constructin~ a concrete about 8,000 acres of tobacco and 7,000 acres weir 21 feet high across the Granite Creek. of other crops. If that area of 7,000 acres A report has been submitted involving two available for other crops is developed into a major dam projects and a 25-mile diversion permanent pasture it is going to be one of canal whereby you can bring water from the the greatest adjun'cts of the Northern Barron in the flush season and fill your Territory that has ever been devised. It W alsh River dam 400 feet lower by means of will enable store cattle, on reaching the diversion canal. The work in this area Mareeba-- is going on steadily. Mr. ,Sparkes: We have store cattle We have already built a number of weirs coming in to be fattened on the Burdekin and eventually the irrigation engineers and on a carrying capacity of about a beast to technicians will investigate every river and 10 acres. Water Resources of [29 SEPTEMBER.] North-West Queensland. 633

They are doing it in every part of preserve the decorum of the Chamber and let the Commonwealth today. The experiments their interjections be reasonable and con­ are associated with what are known fined to the subject matter. as permanent pastures and we are working on that basis. We have an experi­ lUr. Sparkes: I want to know from the mental station at Gatton, another one at Minister what is the rainfall in the area he Theodore, and another on the Burdekin is speaking about. near Ayr, with a view to determining what are suitable permanent pastmieS' in those Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The honour­ districts. able the Minister! illr. H. B. Taylor : What is the progress lUr. FOLEY: I want to mention the of the experiment station in the Gulf effects of these works when they are eventu· country~ ally constructed-they have already started. There iu the Dimbulah area you will get ~Ir. FOLEY: Not very much. The hon. £1,600,000-and this is a conservative member knows from investigations that have estimate-from tobacco alone on irrigable taken place in Victoria and New South Wales land. The scheme will produce enough water that many years elapse before permanent to irrigate 8,000 acres of tobacco land. Then pastures can be developed. It is a case of we shall have approximately £1,600,000 of proceeding by trial and error until you find wealth from tobacco and £240,000 from a the legumes and grasses suitable for a dis· further 7,000 acres, which will be put under trict, and thus develop pastures that will other crops. These latter areas will even· enable it to carry a greater number of stock tually be operated under permanent pastures than in the past. f, r fattening cattle. Therefore, we shall lUr. Sparkes: The people of North have increased wealth from that district up Queensland are not worrying about that. to £1,500,000. That is not something that has been promised, as suggested by the hon. Mr. FOLEY: I know that, but that is member for Mirani; it is work which has one outlet for their stock. Every develop­ been in progress in the last few years. ment with respect to permanent pastures wiU I am tall:ing of a beast to the acre, or help to bring about a solution of the problem better than that. of the carrying capacity of the district. It is only recently that we have, had any JUr. H. B. Taylor: You already have reasonably adequate irrigation staff. 200,000 acres of fattening country on the coast, without irrigation. Mr. Sparkes: Do you think the Dimbulah and other areas will make one iota lUr. FOLEY: Why should we bring the of differe.nce to the North-West~ cattle from there down into the Channel c ountry~ Mr. FOLEY: I will deal with the question of increasing carrying capacity under Mr. H. B. Taylor: I am talking about a totally different heading. It is no use the fattening country in the Cardwell district breeding cattle in the North-West if they have and northwards. not got prospective customers such as I have Mr. FOLEY: Naturally there will be a quoted, where the cattle can be bought at trend for store cattle to travel from the Gulf reasonable, prices and fattened to supply to Cardwell and into the Channel country. Cairns and the eastern parts of the State. We are making provision for that, but there In the grazing part of this are·a we have the has been a flow of cattle down from the North-western section comprising, as I have Peninsula and Dimbulah into the Cairns dis· mentioned, some 90,000 square miles. All it trict and eastern States generally, where is used for at present is grazing. Even under they will be fattened. grazing conditions it is destined to play a large part in supplying store cattle for the I want to point out what this will mean to eastern coast and the eastern highlands. That the North in the wealth that will be created. is one source of supply they depend upon. I .L'his is not something which is promised to understand some will go down to the Channel the community but something that has been country for fattening, when the seasons are developing over a number of years. We favourable. To the. extent to which we can already have some of the irrigation projects develop inigation, as I pointed out, we shall in the initial stages of construction or under incre,ase our population and thus increase construction, or approved by the Government. our wealth. As a result of the Nullinga-Dimbulah project - one of the gateways to the Gulf-we It is true that trans.port facilities are estimate we shall get £1,600,000 new wealth necessary for the further development of the from tobacco in that area and another north-west country. The North Australia £240,000 from other irrigated products, Development Committee, which this motion whereas the present wealth production from sugge_sts . should be asked. ~o . mak~ ~urther 32,000 acres in the area is £400,000. investigatiOns as to the poss1b1hty of 1rngat10n (Opposition interjections.) on this north-west river system, has already made a report to the Prime Minister on the Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Keyatta): possibilities of increasing beef-cattle produc­ Order! I would point out to hon. members tion in that area and as a result we have, had that there is no need to interject persistently. a visit from two representatives of the This debate is developing into a wordy battle Commonwealth, Mr. Lambe·rt and Mr. instead of a debate. I ask hon. members to Tompkins, who ha.ve investigated the re,port 634 Water Resources of [ASSEMBLY.] North-West Queensland.

that was presented and even went into the In addition we are investigating from the local conditions. As a result we have had an angle of animal husbandry, the cause of the announcement from the Federal Government death rate in stock through causes other than that they are willing to bear the whole of drought, such as lack of dipping ·facilities. the cost involved in the road system from A veterinary officer of the Department of various parts of the North-West, which will Agriculture and Stock is investigating and enable us eve;ntually to transport ca.ttle l?Y reporting on that at the present time. I feel road-by what is known as the road-tram confident that the result will be the creation .system that has been developing in this State. of better dipping facilities at a greater By this means greater numbers of stock can number of points in the area. be, conveyed more quickly and they e3;n (Time expired.) be brought from thiR area when the· season IS favourable for fattening in the Channel Mr. BROWN (Buranda) : I move- country; and afte.r they are fattened, they ' 'That the hon. gentleman be granted can be transported from that district to the an extension of time to enable him to head of the present railway system. complete his speech.'' Question put- Mr. Sparkes: By road? Mr. Aikens: Divide! I will stop this Mr. FOLEY: The fact is that the hon. racket. There may be a shortage of beef in member lives in a district that is well Brisbane but there is no shortage of tripe settled, with every system of communication. in this Chamber. Possibly he, has never had occasion to use motor transport to bring his stock in. lUr. THEODORE: I rise to a point of order. I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, did lllr. Sparkes: Don't you worry! you hear the remark made by the hon. member for Mundingburra~ It is a reflection on this Mr. FOLEY: Only an occasional beast. House. In other countries they are carting them by Question-That the motion (Mr. Brown) the thousands. In America, it is common. be agreed to-put; and the House divided- Experiments have proved successful in the AYEs, 48. north-western part of the State. Mr. Bielke-Petersen Mr. Joncs Brassington Kerr lllr. Sparkes: That is not correct. Brown Luckins Bruce Macdonald Mr. FOLEY: They are prepared to de Burrows .Mcintyre it on a bigg.e.r scale. If you have a road Chalk Moo re syste.m that is sound there is nothing wrong Clark Moo res Collins Morris with it. It is quicker than travelling them Crowley M tiller on the hoof a;nd hon. members must know that. Davis Nicklin Decker O'Shea That is what we are aiming at in the Donald Pie absence of the building of a railway. Assum­ Duggan Plunkett ing we could get the rails and all the labom Dunstan Power Evans Roberts required it would take much longer to build Farrell Russell a railway system into the Channel country Foley Suarkes and the North-West than it takes to establish Gair Taylor, H. B. Grab am Theodore the road system I am speaking about. We Gunn Turner cannot get the rails. Certainly you can import Heading Wanstall them at very heavy cost but this makes the Hiley whole undertaking uneconomic. Knowing Hllton Tellers: In gram Marsden these factors, the advisers to the Common­ Jesson Taylor, J. R- wealth Government have recommended this NoEs, 3. road system as the means of speeding up the Mr. Paterson Tellers: transport of stock from this area I mention. Mr. Aikens Marriott But we have not waited for the Common­ wealth Government of the North Australia Resolved in the affirmative. Development Committee to advise on these Mr. FOLEY: When I was rudely inter­ things; we have been on the job. Realising rupted by the hon. member for Munding­ that before 1935 nothing at all was done by burra 's call of ''Divide,'' I was dealing with the councils in the north-western area to the activities of the Government in the north­ improve the stock-route facilities there, today west country and the development of stock these councils are being called upon by the routes, the provision of better facilities for Stock Route Co-ordinating Board to carry out dipping of stock, thereby cutting down tne a plan of improvements, by the installation annual losses, and the arranging for better of water tanks in some areas and the pro­ water facilities which are badly required. I vision of bores and sub-artesian bores in would point out also that ·in every new lease others so that the stock can travel with granted by the Department of Public Land" greater security than formerly. I have with in the north-western, the western, and the me a long report from Mr. Brebner of the south-western parts of Queensland we make Stock Route Branch. He points out that in provision as far as possible for develop­ the Burke shire, the Carpentaria shire and mental conditions so that the carrying the Barkly Tableland, Cloncurry, and Cook capacity of the lands will be increased. That shir..es this work is proceeding and these areas system has been going on since the depres· are right in the midst of this district we are sion days and has had a marked effect discussing. throughout the State. Water Resources of [29 SEPTEMBER.] North-West Queensland. 635

I again emphasise that the investigation The basic need in the North, and partieu­ of the possibilities of irrigation on the vari­ larly the West, is people, but Government ous rivers throughout the Gulf country will policy has forced people out of Western continue uninterruptedly as a result of the Queensland and the only solution of the gradual building up of staff by the Commis­ problem is a complete reversal of Govern­ sioner of Irrigation. A little while ago, when ment policy. Today, anyone who knows the I took over, we had approximately 60 country from a pastoral point of view knows eng_ineers _and technicians, with only one that labour is almost impossible to get and semor engmeer. Today we have approxi­ that the only sort of station labour in some mately 150 engineers and technicians and parts of the North-West is black labour. Even we aim at getting 350, to carry out the on the Northern Territory border black current programme. The time is not far dis­ labour is very difficult to get for the reason tant when all these matters will be thoroughly that the aboriginal does not like to remain investigated and we shall have more know­ in Queensland, he prefers to stay in the ledge of river flow and where it is possible Northern Territory, where he is not so regi­ to put in weirs or undertake major dam mented and controlled. projects. As a result of all this, we shall be able to implement a sound and comprehensive Mr. Aikens: Then even the blackfellow programme. I emphasise also that we have is leaving the North~ not waited for any recommendation from the )lr. RUSSELL: Yes, even the black­ North Australia Development Committee. We fellow is leaving the North and going back have been on the job developing one of the to the Northern Territory. The best man gateways to the north-west country and that I saw on one of the places up there was naturally, as we implement our programme, an aboriginal-Ohinese half-caste-a very good so we shall extend it to other river systems. stockman. Very soon this type of labour will I conclude on this note: as we develop our not be available to us, because according to irrigation potentialities along the north­ the ideas of Mr. Calwell, any Chinese or western and other river systems throughout person showing eastern blood, must leave the the State, so we increase our population as a country. Therefore, we shall not even have result of the closer settlement that takes an opportunity of breeding this type of place. With the increased population, and stockman. the more intensive production that is pos­ sible from irrigated lands,- so we shall increase Speaking seriously, it is not nece~sary to our wealth. bring argument to show that ther~ IS som~­ thing wrong with Government pohcy. Th1s As that takes place, as population increases drift in population should have been corrected and wealth develops, more amenities will be by the Government long ago. They should provided than are possible today in this vast not have had to wait for a private honourable under-populated area. But, of course, all member to bring forward a motion such these things cannot come in a few years. As as this. I can only suggest that the hon. I said earlier in my remarks, I can remember member for Carpentaria is lookin_g for s~me North Queensland in its early days, when political kudos at the next electwn, hop~ng it was virtually a virgin scrub and I can that he will be hailed as some new Messmh compare its state then with its development who is going to fix everything. today-well-cleared, well-cultivated land, population and villages all over the Table­ Every sensible approach that has been land. That change has come about by the made to the development of the North has help that has been given by this Govern­ been countered by some impossible alterna­ ment. Just as that development has taken tive. One of the most important factors place there and in the Callide Valley, the that will contribute to the development of Burnett and the Dawson areas, so will it take the North is transport. We have heard place in the north-western part of the State, quite a bit about that this morning. The by virtue of Labour's practical policy. Federal Government, of course, have made some contribution and suggestion on several Mr. RUSSELL (Dalby) (12.47 p.m.): The occasions in this respect, and we have also motion before us is just a pious one, although had Royal Commissions making recommenda­ its purpose is good, we must admit. The com­ tions. Some of those commissions have been mittee to which it refers was appointed three appointed by this Government, but their years ago for the express purpose o~ making recommendations in several important in­ recommendations concerning the North but stances have been shelved and not taken nothing at all has been done. The hon. notice of. When the Federal Government member for Carpentaria has merely given made a sensible contribution, as they did in lip-sm·vice to Labour propaganda. The Labour the recommendation of Sir Harold Clapp, this Party has had 30 years in which to do this. Government countered it by a proposal that The people are drifting away from the North was quite impossible. Sir Harold Cl a pp's and North-West, and those areas today are proposal was to build a railway line con­ worse in this respect than they were years necting the various terminii of our three main ago. railway systems and then going on t.o Dar­ I am glad that the Secretary for Public win, but this Government countered it by Lands and Irrigation addressed himself to recommending a railway running west of the motion because so much of the western existing terminii which is impossible on two country that I want to deal with comes counts, one on the grounds of ecQnomy and within his province. We have heard a good the other political. The political reason is deal about the coast areas, but it is the that .the Federal Government are committed western area that I want to deal with. to the South Australian Government to the 636 Water Resources of [ASSEMBLY.] North- West Queen8land. building of a north-south line :first. In this We have seen in other parts of the State, way the Governments have reached an im­ where the Government have not adopted this passe so far as railway development in this freight system as applied to the establish­ area is concerned. ment of new industries, that old industries have languished. The Charleville wool-scour The latest proposal is to build roads out closed &ome time ago and other wool-scours there to bring in the cattle. A road to handle closed previous to that. The Charleville the cattle industry of the western areas meatworks closed long ago and they are now efficiently is quite unsuitable. We have seen a mouldering shell. If we had got the recom­ the result of the first road-train experiment. mended railway links Charleville would have The cost was over three times as much as been a very important killing centre. that of rail transport. I do not believe that roads can offer the same facilities for settle­ Some years ago Messrs. W. L. Payne and ment as light railways. The obvious thing J. W. Fletcher were commis&ioned to make to do is to construct light railways from the a report on the Northern Territory; they existing terminii. That is the proper way did s:J, but it was shelved. The hon. member to do this and the only way that should be for Carpentaria has admitted that those and considered. other recommendations should have been carried out. The lack of development of the North is very largely the result of the high cost of The Payne-Fletcher report made recom· transport. In this connection it is vitally mendations so far as taxation was concerned. necessary that we should have the assistance One of the rea&ons why people are leaving of the Federal Government. The North has the West is that they are paying -heavy to be developed quite apart from the con­ taxation for amenities that they do not get. siderations of Queensland. It must be con­ It could be argued that we who live in closely sidered not only from the point of view of settled areas do get something for the taxa­ the wealth to be produced but also on the tion that· is exacted from us; but the people grounds of defence. out there do not and that is why they are I have pointed out before how railways can leaving. be used in development. In the case of Mt. On the subject of taxation Queensland Isa, the Railway Department did the right generally has been cruelly treated and badly thing so far as the classification of rail left behind in the race with the other States. freights was eoncerned. As a result, an in­ I am reminded of that whenever I go to dustry was established at Mt. Isa by what South Australia, a State with nothing like at the time was considered to be an unre­ the potentialities of this State in its hinter­ munerative railway freight classification. land and natural resources; yet we have been left behind industrially. Taxation drove This is what happened: the northern rail­ industry from this• State at the time wfien way was in third place in the three svstems it was imposed by the State. It is indeed as far as earnings were concerned p1:ior to fortunate for this State that the Federal the establishment of Mt. Isa. However, as a Government brought in uniformity of taxa· result of the establishment of the industry" tion, because at least we are on the same at Mt. Isa, it has risen to :first place. This basis. As a resulil> a certain amount of proves that development can take place with indust·ry has recently been started in Queens­ the construction of light railways and so­ land. However, unfortunately, most of it is called unremunerative freight rates. round Brisbane. This has also been proved to be so in Mr. lllacdonald: South Australia has no the U.S.A. coal. The American railway people boast that Mr. RUSSELL: And there is no coal in they can establish industry at any particular South Australia. We should be far ahead of point simply by freight classifications. They South Australia in industrial development. say, and quite rightly so, that from the rail­ way point of view it is better to have large Lanil settlement is the main feature in centres of industry so that they can carry the initial stage& of development in a goods from various points to and f1·o rather country, but the Department of Public Lands than carry a proportionately high percentage ha8 not encouraged it in the way it should. of the freight one way. They are of course One company that I know of on the Barkly interested in profit-that dreadful word which Tableland has had a number of insecure is anathema to Socialists. Here the Govern­ leases for a very long time and has made ment-owned railways are interested in votes application after application over a penod and it would appear are interested only in of nine years for an extensi :Jn and consolida­ bringing benefit to major centres of popula­ tion of their lea&es so that it could go ahead tion on the coast area. with a developmental programme, but with­ out result. An Hon. Member: They are interested in profit for themselves. I have pointed out before that here is one thing the Government could do to get settle­ Mr. RUSSELL: Yes, but the trouble is ment into this country: they could make it that so few of them have been able to make a condition of an extension of lease that a any profit, which after all is the indicator of company must provide conditions that will efficiency, so they say, ''Let us cut it out.'' attract people to those places. In that way And they have done that and seem to con­ you will get the soundest form of develop­ centrate more on losses. ment. Timber Users' [29 SEPTEMBER.] Protection Bill. 637

At 2.15 p.m.- Mr. NICKLIN: Nobody would expect that In accordance with Sessional Order, the at all but neither would you expect, with House proceeded with Government business. that ~lause in the Bill, that the productioi~ of one piece of timber would not condemn the whole lot. The clause says it does and TIMBER USERS' PROTECTION BILL. the wording is as plain as it can possibly be. If any portion or sample is proved to be not RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE. to these specifications it shall be deemed to· have been proved with regard to the whole (Mr. Hilton, Carnarvon, in the chair.) of the timber from which that portion or Consideration resumed from 28 September sample was taken. There is no doubt about (see p. 622) of Clause 15-Proof-, on that. It is absolutely as plain as one can· which Mr. Nicklin had moved the following possibly make it; that is the intention. amendment- Mr. Foley: No, you are interpreting it '' On page 13, lines 36 to 38, omit the wrongly. words- ' Where in any proceeding under this Mr. Collins: What is a portion? Act an offence is proved in regard to Mr. NICKLIN: A portion is a part of the· any portion or sample of timber such whole and the whole is the whole lot. If the offence shall' ". Minister can convince us with any further argument that the clause does not mean lUr. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of the Opposition) (2.16 p.m.): When the Com­ exactly what it says we may be willing to mittee adjourned yesterday this amendment withdraw the amendment. At the moment was under discussion and I do not know there is no doubt about what the subclause whether the Minister has any further infor­ says. It says that in any proceeding under mation to give the Committee on it. The the measure, if any piece or any portion is information he has given in reply to the proved not to be up to specifications, that proof shall be deemed to apply to the whole amendment moved from this side is rather lot of the timber from which that portion inconclusive. or sample was taken. As we pointed out very definitely through­ (Time expired.) out the passage of this Bill, it contains many contradictions, and this is one. The Minister lUr. HILEY (Logan) (2.22 p.m.) : So that has explained that the purpose of this clause is we can clearly understand the import of this to eliminate the necessity of having to bring clause, could the Minister answer a question into court the whole of the timber con­ relating to this specific set of facts~ Let us cerned in the parcel from which one piece suppose there is a stack of timber of a quality of lyctus-susceptible timber had been con­ that, provided it is not sappy, would not come demned by an inspector. That is rather a within the ambit of this measure, but in this weak excuse. There is no doubt that as this pile of timber, which contains say 2,000 feet, sub-clause is worded it means that if one there is one stick of sappy timber. On the· piece of timber is not up to specification and plain English of this subclause there c_annot it is necessary for it to be condemned the be the slightest doubt that the offence IS not whole of the timber from which that piece permissively directed to the w_hole of that is taken is condemned. 2,000 superficial feet of timber; it is man­ Mr. Foley: No, it is only for the purpose datorily directed, and this subclause does not of establishing proof in court. say that the magistrate in his discretion may declare the whole lot faulty but directs that Mr. NICKLIN: It may be only for the he must hold that it applies to the whole of purpose of establishing proof in court but the timber. it means that if the proof is established­ and this sub-clause remains as it is-the I can appreciate that the Minister is whole of the timber from which that one endeavouring to avoid the obviously stupid piece is withdrawn is condemned. recourse of having to bring in every faulty stick of timber in order to get an order in Mr. Foley: That would be a separate relation to it. He ~"ants his inspectors to be order of the magistrate. in a position to bring into court a sample and say, ''Here is a sample taken out of a Mr. NICKLIN: The one piece of timber? heap. On the face of that sample I ask for Mr. Foley: Yes. an order to be made. '' Mr. NICKLIN: For the benefit of the Mr. Macdonald: But it would not be a Committee I will read the clause again- sample. '' Where in any proceeding under this Act an offence is proved in regard to any Mr. HILEY: It is a true sample of the· portion or sample of timber-" faulty timber, but it is not a true sample and mark that, ''any portion or sample''; of the good timber in the stack. I am quite that is plain enough- ready to concede to the Minister the right to sensibly avoid the greater task o~ bringing . . .. ''such offence shall be deemed to huge quantities and complete evidence ~f have been proved with regard to the whole faulty timber before the ~ourt. T~a~ 1s lot of timber from which that portion or plain common sense, but I thmk the M1mster sample was taken.'' has an obligation to see that his draftsmen Mr. Foley: You would not expect them so word the clauses of the Bill that no· to pull down the whole of the rafters' person shall be put in the position of being: <638 Timber Users' [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

~eld guilty with respect to the good timber inspector visited a building and found a m a stack merely because there is one faulty percentage of the rafters supporting the b oard in it. That is plainly a monstrous tiled roof had been eaten away by borer principle and I do not think the Minister attack, you would have to pull off the tiles, would wish to do that, but that is the plain pull down the whole of the rafters, and 'English of the clause as it stands and I do bring the whole into court to prove that the not think that as a Committee we are entitled rafters were being attacked by borers. All to accept any assurance from the Minister this Act provides is that to establish an that he will see to it that it is not adminis­ offence we bring in a portion or a sample. t ered in that way. It is our duty, especially That simplifies the whole thing. Whether :at this stage of the Bill, to see that the the whole of the timber will be condemned words that go into the legislation define the or seized, is a question for determination by liability clearly. It is not sufficient that we the court. This subclause is to simplify the should pass a statute that says everything is procedure of proving the offence. Instead "held to be faulty on a ministerial assurance of bringing in all the rafters, or all the that he will only follow administratively the battens behind the wall, you simply bring portion he wants to follow. That is a bad in a sample to prove to the comt that the principle, and it seems to be the only excuse builder has committed an offence in putting i:he Minister can offer for asking us to accept borer-susceptible timber into the building. "the present language of the subclause. Mr. Kerr: That is what you really mean. Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby-Secretary Mr. FOLEY: As to the seizure of the for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2.25 timber, to prevent the whole of the timber p.m.): I feel that the case raised by the from going into the building, an application last speaker is really an extreme case. An would be made for an order of the court. inspector inspecting timber going into a I do not think that the amendment conveys "building weuld not take action if only one what the Leader of the Opposition intends, -stick of timber in the lot was susceptible and it would be foolish for me to accept it. to borer attack. I can well imagine the Inspector and a sensible builder getting Mr. HILEY (Logan) (2.30 p.m.): If the t ogether and arranging for that piece of clause stopped at the provision for proof t imber to be condemned. On the other hand, by sampling I do not think any objection where there is a half ton or a ton, or even would be taken to it, and that would be the more timber, that contains a percentage of sensible course to follow, but the Minister lyctus-susceptible timber, it would be will observe that it goes further, and says r idiculous to expect the inspector to bring that if a conviction is obtained in respect of the whole parcel into court to prove the the sample the conviction must extend to ·offence. the whole lot. Let us suppose that I am a timber merchant, and that I have a stack of The reading of the subclause in the Bill timber measuring 2,000 superficial feet con­ is plain. Take as an illustration a ton of taining only one faulty board. It is right timber ready to go into a building. Say that I should be convicted for that faulty that a quarter or a percentage of it is board, but I do object to a principle that 'susceptible to borer attack. The inspector says that merely because I am gu~lty ~n wants to prevent that timber from going respect of the one board I am gllllty m into the building. He has to bring evidence respect of the other 90 and nine also. before the court and instead of bringing the whole of the timber in, all he has to do is Mr. Jesson: It does not say that. t o bring in a sample. Mr. HILEY: It does say that. Let me Mr. Nicklin: To condemn the whole lot? remind the Committee that the clause says- Mr. FOLEY: Yes, the whole of the sus­ '' Where in any proceeding under this Act -c eptible timber. It is not a matter of getting an offence is proved in regard to any an order .from the court to condemn and portion or sample of timber such offence seize the timber. That is a different matter shall be deemed to have been proved with -altogether. In section 20 of the Roofing regard to the whole lot.'' Tiles Act of 1949, which replaced section 9 This is not a question merely of facilitating . of the Standard Cement Concrete Roofing proof by sample. It goes a great deal further Tiles Act of 1948, there is exactly the same and says that if you are proved guilty with provision. If a percentage of tiles on a respect to a percentage you are therefore roof are net up to standard all the inspector adjudged guilty in respect of the whole lot. J1a s- to do, instead of bringing the whole roof If it is simply the Minister's desire to Into court, is to bring in a sample. facilitate proof by sampling he should have it, but he should also take this factor into lUr. Nicklin: And condemn the whole r oof ~ account, that the guilt extends to the lot. He should ask his draftsman to draft the clause in such a way as will facilitate proof Mr. FOLEY: No. What actually happens 'in practice is that the whole roof is con­ by sampling, but do not hang the innocent ·demned for the time being, until the builder or adjudge a person guilty in respect of the is able to prove to the authorities concerned whole lot simply because he is guilty in respect t hat he has sufficient tiles of the required of a percentage. ,gtandard and then he is allowed to go on Mr. Roberts: If a milk vendor adds with his work. As a further illustration, it water to his milk he is adjudged guilty in would be ridiculous to suggest that if an respect to the whole lot so adulterated. · Timber Users' (29 SEPTEMBER.] Protection Bill. 63 1)

Mr. HILEY: It is stupid to suggest that simpler we can make the procedure the better­ when water is put into milk you can keep it it is for the general public and the better th~ separate from the rest of the contents of the chance we have of dealing not only with the container. racketeer but with the disreputable builder· who may insist on introducing susceptible Mr. Aikens: That would be like saying timbers into a building. We are only aiming that the water would run to one corner of the at dealing with that class of person and bucket. simplifying the procedure in a court of law to establish ttn offence without bringing Mr. HILEY: Yes. several tons of timber into court when, as· a matter of fact, only a percentage of it is Mr. Kerr: A case of the piebald cow. attacked by the lyctus borer. Every hon. member should realise the necessity for­ Mr. HILEY: There is not the slightest facilitating in every way the establishment of analogy. If you have a pile of timber, each a charge against such a class of person. piece separable from the other, no-one should suggest that an impure piece would contam­ inate all the pure timber remaining. The lUr. KERR (Oxley) (2.38 p.m.): It is clause as drafted takes the matter too far. very hard to understand why the Minister­ I agree that there should be facility for cannot see our idea of attempting to improve proof by sampling, but it is a perfectly the procedure under this clause but there are monstrous principle to assume that a person none so blind as those who do not want to· is guilty in a matter in respect of which no see. Instead, the Minister gave us a lesson guilt actually exists. On this very principle, in English language. Nothing could be· if a person went to the Bank of New South plainer than the language that is employed Wales at this very moment and helped himself in this clause. The Minister quoted Clause· to £5 at the teller's counter, he should be 10 ( 4) with respect to the penalty. That held guilty for having stolen everything there clause would depend on the proof established is in the bank. That would be a true analogy. under this clause. If legal proceedings are Mr. Aikens: It would be tantamount to taken under this Bill there is nothing to stop· saying that because there is one bad apple the court, under Clause 10, from condemning in the case the whole case is bad. not that portion of the timber affected by the lyctus borer but the whole lot-the Mr. HILEY: Yes. The whole purpo~e language is so simple and plain. of the clause should be to provide facility for proof by sampling, but as the clause is at The Minister should have had sufficient evidence of our good faith and of our desiring· present worded it is carrying the matter al­ to make this piece of legislation a reasonable together too far. and proper proposition. We appreciate that the Minister does not want to take the whole Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby-Secre­ of the timber into court. T'hat would be tary for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2.34 too foolish for words, but there. it is in this p.m.) : It is very difficult to think that the clause in plain English. Its present wording is· Opposition are by their actions and their plain enough for those who want to see and amendment deliberately trying to aid and read as they go. abet an imposition on the public. I do not want to think that, but one can only form Mr. PIE (Windsor) (2.40 p.m.): The conclusions after hearing the discussion we Minister has accused us of stonewalling and have had on the Bill and on this clause in moving foolish amendments and aiding and particular. If that is not so, there is only abetting racketeers. I say emphatically that one other conclusion to be drawn, that is, the Minister is only trying! to put up an Aunt that hon. members have not studied the Bill. Sally for us to knock down; he is just having They are following their leader on some an argument with himself. foolish amendment and backing him up, thus causing unnecessary delay. The plain English Mr. Foley: You just follow somebody of the paragraph deals only with the pro­ else; you have not read the Bill. ceedings to be taken when an offence has been Mr. PIE: The Minister cannot annoy· detected. It would be downright foolishness me, if that is what he is trying to do. Let to insert in this Bill a provision that if a ton us see what it says- of timber containing susceptible timber was ready to go into a building an inspector, to '' Such offence shall be deemed to have establish an offence, had to bring the whole been proved with regard to the whole lot lot into court. That is what we want to of timber from which that portion or avoid. There is nothing in the Bill to deal sample was taken.'' with condemning timber but in Clause 10 What is the Minister's definition of ''the ( 4) there is provision for the seizure of whole lot"~ Is it the piece from which timber. You must establish before a court that portion was taken~ Is it the first piece the right to seize such timber and even to from which that portion was taken or is it destroy it. the whole lot of the timber in which that portion was found~ That is what I want This clause deals only with establishing to know. If an inspector goes out ancT proof that an offence has been committed examines the timber, will he find in accord­ when the complaint reaches the court. The ance with the wording here that the ''whole· <640 Timber Users' [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

'lot'' of the timber from which the sample offence it is only necessary to produce one is taken only applies to that particular board piece, that would be all right, but it does m length of timber. That is what I want to not say that or stop at that; it goes· further. know from the Minister. That is all we are worried about. The clause does not say that. Every hon. member who has spoken today My understanding of the term ''whole lot of has made it plain that he has no objection, timber'' is that if an inspector found two and I make it plain that I have no objection, boards affected in 20,000 sup. ft. of timber to the Minister's suggestion that it is not he would have the right to condemn the whole necessary to bring the whole of the timber lot. int-o court; so long as you bring one sample, that is enough. But the disagreement arises }Ir. Theodore: The inspector could take on this point: when you bring one, two or the two boards out and there would be none ten pieces, does that mean that the whole there. of the timber in the stack from where the piece of timber is• taken, or if taken from- a }Ir. PIE: The hon. member for Herbert building, the whole of the part of the build­ bas said that he will take the two boards out ing from where it is taken is timber in .and the rest will be all right. That is what respect of which the offence has been com­ we want to do. ·we only want condemned mitted r I submit that is the plain meaning the two boards that are affected; we do not o;f this clause. If the English language want the whole lot. I believe the hon. mem· means anything, that is what it does mean. her for Herbert is on the right track. I suggest that he come down and advise the Pers-onally, I cannot see why there is any Minister that the plain understanding of this necessity for us to spend all this time on thing is as we see it. the clause when a simple addition of I ask the Minister: what does he mean by words would make it perfectly clear the words "whole lot of timber"~ Does he and would make it agree with what mean the ''whole lot'' as it says in this apparently is in the mind of t,he Bill or does he mean the two boards or four Minister when he used the words in boards or six boards from which this sample his· speech, although they are not in the is taken~ Surely we are justified in asking clause. It would be sufficient to insert after that. Does the Minister mean the whole the words ''whole lot'' the words that board or the whole lot, or does he mean the apparently the Leader of the Opposition is lot from which the sample was taken. Surely going to move a;n amendment for-'' the we are entitled to ask these questions without whole lot of lyctus-susceptible timber.'' No­ being accused of aiding and abetting one would have any objection to that. In racketeers. other words, if a person is found guilty of Mr. PATERSON (Bowen) (2.43 p.m.): I committing an offence against this Act, have followed the debate with great interest. instead of one, 20 or 100 pieces of timber, I feel that the Opposition have rendered good then · the whole lot of the lyctus-susceptible service in bringing this matter up. It is not timbeT, whether in a heap or a building, will a matter of what we think the clause means automatically he considered to be timber in or what we think the Minister means; it is respect of which the offence has been com­ a matter of what the court will think it mitted. means. Mr. Turner: If it has not been treated. Oppgsition lUembers: Hear, hear! nrr. PATERSON: If it has not been Mr. P ATERSON: That is the important treated. It would not weaken the effect of thing that matters in this question. Unfor­ the Bill-the Bill would be just as effective tunately, as I think most of us realise, there -but no person could complain on the ·are many sections in our legislation that can ground that it was unjust, unfair, contrary have two meanings. Some have more than to British justice or contraTy to any of the two. In this instance I feel that a strong principles we so constantly talk about in case can be made out, on the lines of the connection with British justice. I suggest, Opposition's reasoning, that the plain mean· in order to save further debate, because I 'ing of these words is that if one or more believe it is not necessary here, we can pieces of timber are found to be such that clear this little point up by the Minis­ the person selling or using them has corn· ter's making it plain that he is prepared mitted an offence against the law, then the either to accept the later amendment of the whole of the timber-whether it is in a Leader of the Opposition or to move a stack or a house-can be considered as timber similar amendment himself. in respect of which the offence has been com­ mitted. Amendment (MT. Nicklin) negatived. Mr. Foley: For the purposes of the Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby-Secretary ·offence. for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2.49 p.m.): I move the following amendment:- Mr. P ATERSON: Not only for the pur­ ''On page 13, line 38, after the word- po&es of the offence. The hon. gentleman does not say that. If the Bill said what he ' shall' ·says, it would be all right. If the clause insert the words ·simply said that for the purposes of the 'prima facie' '' Timber User.<' [29 SEPTEMBER.] Protection Bill. 641

The object of the insertion of these word~:~ is if this amendment was accepted it would to liberalise the clause by giving the defence leave the guardians of the law in a better opportunity to establish that the the position that they could not take action offence did not apply to the whole lot of for an offence except for the specific purpose the timber. That was foreshadowed some mentioned in the amendment. time before the point was mentioned here. The opportunity will now be given to the This is another example of the improper charged person to establish that proof before study of the measure before the Committee. t he court and obtain a decision. Hon. members opposite have simply taken each clause as it came up without considera­ Amendment (Mr. Foley) agreed to. tion of the other clauses and principles in the Bill. As I said, if this amendment was Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of accepted it would upset the whole of _the the Opposition) (2.51 p.m.): I move the Bill and it would apply to lyctus-susceptlble following amendment- timber only. '' On page 13, line 39, after the word Mr. Nicklin: That is what the clause 'of,' insert the words- applies to. ' lyctus-susceptible.' " Mr. FOLEY: It would upset the whole When he was speaking the Minister himself of the Bill. said that if the words "lyctus-susceptible" were used, the clause would apply only to :i\Ir. KERR (Oxley) (2.56 p.m.): Proof the lyctus-susceptible timber included in that has to be established ''in any action, suit or lot, and that would satisfy the Opposition. proceeding under this Act,' ' and the clause What we are endeavouring to do is see that in question says- all the lyctus-susceptible timber is dealt with, not the timber that is not lyctus-susceptible '' . . . proof that the use in any build­ in the lot from which these bits of lyctue­ ing intended or used for residential or susceptible timber are drawn. business purposes of any piece of timber which shows lyctus-susceptible timber . ' ' The Minister has now had the words What does the English language mean~ ''prima facie'' inserted in the clause and says that gives the defence a better chance. Mr. Foley: Read the sub-clause we are All I can say about not only this clause but amending. the whole Bill is that it will be a lawyer's dream, that the lawyers are going to have a Mr. KERR: . ... "On more than one wonderful .. ·time when it is proclaimed and quarter of its perimeter shall be conclusive put into op eration, because it is a mass of evidence that an attack by lyctus will detri­ contradictions that will mean much work for mentally affect the use or service for which them. the building is intended.'' The. amendment I have moved would con­ That refers to lyctus-susceptible timbers only. fine action under this clause to the lyctus­ susceptible timber and would not apply to l1Ir. Foley: Read sub-clause (2). any other timber in the lot from which the lyctus-susceptible timber was drawn, that is, Mr. RERR: It says- if the balance is not lyctus-susceptible. On '' Where in any proceedings under this the strength of what the Minister said him­ Act an offence is proved in regard to any self earlier in the debate on this clause, there portion or sample of timber . . . '' is no reason why he should not accept this and reading the first subclause again it means amendment, which will overcome the bad lyctus-susceptible timber. The first subclause draftsmanship we have in this clause, under is the governing clause to which subclause which it can apply to the whole lot of timber (2) refers. It was originally intended to from which a suspected piece may be drawn. deal with lyctus-susceptible timber. Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby-Secre­ lUr. }'oley: No, I have mentioned other tary for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2.54 matters. p.m.): I cannot accept the amendment and the reason must be obvious to everyone. If Mr. KERR: Yes, the Minister mentioned these words are inserted the offence will immature and unseasoned timber, but they apply only to lyctus-susceptible timbers. As arc not mentioned in this clause. hon. members know, the Bill deals with a number of other matters for which prosecu· The proof that is required is proof in con­ tion can take place. For instance, prosecu­ nection with lyctus-susceptible timber. We tions may take place for using improperly are not in this clause dealing with im­ seasoned timber, for the wrong naming of mature timber. The Minister has already timber or the wrong representation of species, said no, but I say that the clause is dealing or for the representation that timber had with lyctus-susceptible timber, and that been given approved preservative treatment there is nothing in it about immature timber. when that was not so, or for representations concerning preservative treatment other than JUr. Foley: It is in other clauses. treatment against lyctus borer. All those things are covered in the Bill, and Mr. KERR: But not in this clause. 1949-w 642 Timber Users' [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

Question-That the words proposed to be longer. If it is to be treated immediately inserted in Clause 15 (Mr. Nieklin 's amend­ this legislation is placed on the statute book ment) be so inserted-put; and the Com­ it will mean a shortage of timber on the mittee divided- market and the treated timber will be dearer. Competition will be confined to treated AYES, 22. timber and susceptible timber not treated can­ Mr. Alkens Mr. Mtiller not be sold. Perhaps the Minister would go Bielke-Petersen Nicklin a little further than the amendment seeks Chalk Paterson and make the period six months but to make Decker Pie Evans Plunkett it compulsory straightaway would be to ask " Heading Russell for something more than can be reasonably " Hiley Sparkes expected. " Luckins Taylor, H. B. Macdonald Marrfott Te!Zers: Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby- Mclntyre Kerr Secretary for Public L ands and Irrigation) Morris Low (3.8 p.m.): I feel that public reaction to NOES, 29. this measure is quite f avourable. The feeling is that measures against the use of borer­ Mr. Brasslngton Mr. In gram Brown Jesson susceptible timber in the construction of Bruce Jones buildings are long overdue. The effect of Burrows Keyatta the amendment would be to postpone the Cl ark " Larcombe Collins Mars den operations of the Act. That in effect would Crow!ey Moo re give to snide builders and others an oppor­ Davis O'Shea tunity to continue selling and using sus­ Donald Roberts ceptible timber. It would be used in the Duggan 'T'ay!nr, J. R. Dunstan Theodore construction of houses and cause no end of Farrell distress. That would be the general effect Foley of the amendment. Gair Te!Zers: Graham Moores I do not know whether that is intended Gunn Turner or whether the Opposition are on the side of the snide builder or the man PAIRS. who wants to take advantage of this AYES .. NoEs. class of timber. (Opposition interjections.) Mr Brand Mr. Power Madsen Devries Here is an amendment that seeks to prolong Maher Hanlon the sale of lyctus-susceptible timber. We Wanstall Smith have had enough complaints in the Forestry Resolved in the negative. Department in the past about this class of timber and have been helpless in the matter. Clause 15, as amended, agreed to. There is no law on the statute book enabling us to take action. Here we are attempting Clauses 16 to 18, both inclusive, as read, to bring a Bill in, and the Opposition have agreed to. fought it every inch of the way, clause by Clause 19-Publication of Orders in Coun­ clause; and now when we have reached the cil, regulations, &c.- last clause they want to put off the proclama­ tion of the Bill so that snide builders and Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (3.6 p.m.): others will have a ''free go'' and tliis timber I move the following amendment:- can be used and placed in buildings to the " On page 15, line 56, omit the word distress of the people who are likely to be 'and,' and insert the proviso- affected. I cannot accept the amendment. ' Provided that a proclamation issued (Murrumba-Leader of under subsection two of section one Mr. NICKLIN the Opposition) (3.11 p.m): I. ~m really shall not fix a date for the coming into surprised to hear a respons1ble M1mster get­ operation of this Act earlier than the ting up and using such an argument. It first day of January, One thousand nine shows that apparently he has no sound case hundred and fifty; and' '' to back up his own argument, otherwise he It is almost an utter impossibility to expect would not introduce such stuff into this debate a miller of lyctus-susceptible timber to install -throwing these accusations at .the Opposi­ a treatment plant immediately. The time tion who after all are endeavourmg to make allowed should be considerably longer than the 1Bill a workable · one, while the Minister three months-it should be six months-but is doing his best to make it a legal man's the time stated in the amendment would paradise. He said that we were wasting enable millers to install treatment plants. time. This Bill was introduced on 15 Sep­ If the Bill is proclaimed immediately there tember and it is now only 29 September. will be an immediate shortage of timber. Many millers have not facilities to treat the Mr. Jones: Time marches on. timber, nor will it be possible for them to ~Ir. NICKLIN: It certainly does. Let transport it to treatment plants in the pre­ us not forget that the Minister did not con­ scribed time. sult the trade at all before he introduced I am sure the Minister in his wisdom will this Bill. He did not give the trade the see the force of the amendment. Susceptible opportunity to do anything in this matter. timber has been used for a considerable time It was only after the Bill was introduced and it will not make a great deal of difference that he met representatives of the trade and jf it is allowed to be used a little while he has not yet given anybody in the trade Timber Usertr' [29 SEPTEMBER.] Protection Bill. 643

the full opportunity to discuss the provisions Mr. KERR (Oxley) (3.17 p.m.): I support of the Bill and to say whether they are the amendment moved by the hon. member practical. for Fassife;rn. The Leader of the Opposition has not only shown common-sense but he has :1\I:l\ Foley: Legitimate traders and been fairness itself. Surely we as a delibera­ builders in the community welcome this tive Assembly should be fair on all counts, measure and they have told us so. but the proclaiming of this Bill forthwith after the Royal Asse,nt will not be fair to lUr. NICKLIN: So does everybody 95 per cent of the builders or sawmillers of welcome the measure; but we want to make this State. They might be in full accord with the measure a workable one; not to do what the provisions, but how will they carry _them the Minister seems to be doing-make one out immediately~ Not 5 per cent of bmlders that will not be practicable. After all, the in Queensland have the necessary plant. men in the trade, who will be responsible The Minister said in a very cheap sort of for carrying out the provisions of this Bill way that we were supporting snide builders, should have some reasonable opportunity to that we were behind them, that we agreed put themselves in a position to handle this with what they had done. I ask the _Minister lyctus-susceptible timber. Hon. members what his Government have been domg over know of the shortage of materials and how the past six years in not. bringi?-g in ~uch a difficult it is to do anything of a construc­ Bill before, but supportmg smde bmlders~ tional nature; and we should not forget that The Opposition have not been in p~wer. the provision of a treatment bath for this He replies that if the Bill is not pr?claim~ll timber will necessitate heating facilities. forthwith the abuse that he says e.xists w1ll Many of our mills are electrically operated; continue. There is some truth in what he says, they have no steam with which to heat their but by proclaiming the Bill he will create, baths; and they will have to overcome diffi­ by power of Government, a much greater culties in getting electrical heating plants abuse than the abuse that exists now because which are not easy to buy. After all, the until the mills are able to provide the proper amendment moved by the hon. member for treatment they will not be able to prevent Fassifern only asks that the trade be given susceptible timber from being foisted on three months. Goodness knows, that is short_ the public. enough to build such a thing as a modern treatment bath. A Government Member: That is what millers have already done. The Minister says that by moving this lUr. KERR: That is not fair to the amendment we are assisting the snide builder. millers of Queensland. How can they possibly Nothing of the sort; because the discussion install plants immediately~ During the course that has t aken place on this Bill-and, don't of the debate the Minister implied that there forget, initiated by the Opposition-has been would be, a probationary period, but there given publicity in the Press and everybody is nothing to that effect in the Bill. The has been warned in regard to the dangers of amendment asks the Minister to do what he lyctus-susceptible timber. You cannot tell really thought in his heart would be done­ me that any home-builder would not insist, that there should be some probationary after the discussion he has read in the Press period in which these plants could be installed. during . the last week, that his builder should If these millers do not install these plant!! not use lyctus-susceptible timber. within the prescribed time, the Minister The Minister's charge that we are on the will find that the Opposition will be fully side of the snide builders is so much political behind him in cancelling millers' licences tripe and it is unworthy of a Minister of the if they sell lyctus-susceptible timbers_. L~t Crown that he should introduce such a sugges­ there, be no mistake about that. That IS fan tion here. Perhaps the Minister, by demanding enough. We strongly resent the suggestion the immediate proclamation of this Bill, wants that we are supporting snide builders or all &orts of inefficient plants to be operated millers. and for this inefficiency the poor, unfortunate Mr. ROBERTS (Nundah) (3 .20 p.m.): home-builder will have to pay. The Minister It is a deplorable state of affairs that under showed photographs here of plants in operation the, responsible system of governn;e_nt that in this city at prE'sent. One was an old, cut­ operates in this State the OppositiOn can down boiler tilled with the solution to treat adopt the course they h~ve t~en t~rou_ghout the timber. Each piece of timber had to be the time we have been d1scussmg th1s Bill. picked up separately, dipped into the solution They have continued to argue that protec­ and pulled out. Who is to pay for thaH The tion should be afforded to upscrupulous, snide poor, unfortunate home-builder. The Minister builders or sawmillers, as the case may be, denies to the trade the right of a.n oppor­ who certainly do carry on business in this tunity to establish modern plants before, it State. Fortunately such business people ~re is compelled to carry out the provisions of the very small in numbers, but the fact remams Bill. that even on this amendment to the :final The amendment is a common-sense one and clause of the Bill hon. members opposite are after all, the trade is entitled to some endeavouring to give the upscrupulous saw­ opportunity to build these treatment plants miller and the snide builder an opportunity that will give protection to the houBe-building of unloading whatever susceptible timbers he public. I deprecate the attack by the Ministe,r may have on his hands at present upon the on the Opposition for moving the ammend­ unsuspecting public. That is far from being ment. It is just to give a just measure of anything that we can commend in an hr:lOur­ time to the people in the trade, to allow them able gentleman who has obtained a seat in to put in the necessary treatment plants. this Legislative Assembly. 644 Timber Users' [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

In supporting the amendment, the Lead~r It does not necessarily follow that all of of the Opposition said that all the Opposi· the timber has to be treated. Throughout the tion require is that a measure of time should Bill the Minister's argument was that not be afforded the trade within which the mills every scrap of timber will be attacked by the may install the necessary plant. Suppose borer. Everyone knows that the badly­ the mills at present operating have not already affected timber will be that heavily laden installed the plant that will be required to with sap. A lot of discretion will be neces­ treat the lyctus·susceptible timbers. Certainly, sary because a home-builder or a contractor, if this Bill comes into effect immediately, if he is careful in the selection of his timber, they will not be in a position to treat and can get over a great deal of the difficulty. sell lyctus-susceptible timbers to the public. If given a reasonable time to put in treat­ What hon. members opposite fail to point ment plants I am sure many of the bigger out-and I have no hesitation in saying they builders would put them in. It is not going have deliberately failed to point it out-is to be cheap, however, as the Minister says that there is nothing in this Bill to compel the it will be, and I am sure that a number of sawmillers who have lyctus-susceptible tim­ the smaller mills will not be able to do it. bers on their hands and who have no plants Those mills will have to make arrangements for treating it, to sell those timbers to the to have their timber treated elsewhere. public. They can continue to supply to the public any non-susceptible timbers that they I never heard anything as petty, as miser­ are able to mill, but they are not being able, as lousy as the remarks made here this forced to sell susceptible timbers to the pub­ afternoon. lic immediately, nor are they being forced to sell them to the public until they have been The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. able to install the plant necessary for treat­ Hilton) : Order! ing them. The only result of the amendment ~Ir. ltiULLER: I know those are strong now moved by hon. members opposite would words but we resent the remarks made about be to afford the&e people an opportunity of us this afternoon. We on this side of the selling lyctus-susceptible timbers that have Committee are above that kind of thing not been treated to the public for the pur­ and we are just as much concerned about poses . of ?ui_lding houses, making furniture, the people building homes as anybody else. or usmg It m any other direction in which we are endeavouring to protect the public. Mr. Crowley interjected. I have no hestitation in saying the Minis­ ter obviously was correct in the inference he Mr. MULLER: You are too jolly small has drawn as to the motive actuating hon. to understand. If an hon. member is members opposite in bringing forward this worthy of the seat he holds in this Assembly amendment. surely he is interes-ted in the class of material anybody might put into a home. ltlr. MULLER (Fassifern) (3.24 p.m.) : Common sense and practical thought are I resent the remarks made by the Minister required. To suggest that treatment plants and the hon. member for Nundah about our can be installed this week or next week is alleged concern for snide builders and millers. plain damned rot. Discretion has to be There is nothing further from my intentions exercised and the people have to be told what than the protection of the snide and unscrupu­ is required of them. If you did that you lous builders and millers. would be rendering the home-builder a greater When moving the amendment I pointed out service than by what the Government are that it was almost impossible for a number proposing to do. If timber cannot be treated of _th?se people. who are now cutting these it cannot be sold and therefore somebody vanehes of timber to instal treatment will be waiting for timber with which to plants. They have not got them and they build a home. Black-marketing will come cannot put them in. I doubt whether they into the picture and there will be an increased could put them in within the next three demand for usable timbers and the home­ months. builder will pay for what the Government The fact is that if the timber is untreated are intending to carry out. we shall be in no worse position than we have been for the last six years. Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (3.29 The Minister, in an explanation of the p.m.): Earlier in the debate I accused the Bill a few days ago, gave the Chamber a Opposition of trying to stave off the evil list of the treatment plants in Queensland day for the unscrupulous builder and sub­ and he mentioned only one or two capable sequent events have justified that assertion. of handling building timber. The majority The hon. member for Aubigny arrived back of the treatment plants referred. to were just in this Chamber after a sojourn in Melbourne. s:nall plants capable of treating furniture He walked in innocently and when he began tn~Iber;. they might treat palings or some­ to get a grip of the debate his· first reaction thmg hke that. If you are treating long was that of an honourable man. He said, lengths of timber you have to have a reason­ ''We will not let them use any of this tim­ able-sized tank. As the Leader of the ber at all.'' When it was pointed out to Opposition said, boiling water is used in the him that unfortunately it was necessary to treatment. I have made inquiries, not with use this timber because of the shortage of tht> idea of protecting anybody or doing any­ timber he appeared to be quite satisfied. body. an injury~ and I find, to use plain He was not here long before he got the Enghsh, that this clause is not practicable. whisper from his colleagues that they must People will not mill the timber and it will protect the unscrupulous builder and be left on their hands. unscrupulous sawmiller at all cost and so he Timber Users' (29 SEPTEMBER.] Protection Bill. 645 joined in the chorus with members of the reason for further delay in that respect Opposition and fought the Bill tooth and because no costly machinery is involved and nail, line by line, and clause by clause. no physical or financial impossibilities are involved in connection with the issue of This is supposed to be a Bill to protect orders in council and the making of proclama­ the poor unfortunate person building a home tions relating to the registration of brands from having his home tumble 'down on him, and the use of correct brands. ?'et the Opposition are dying hard and fight· mg hard to protect the unscrupulous saw· The only argument on the question of the miller and unscrupulous builder. If they are delay that can be brought forward-and I not out to protect the unscrupulous person do not agree with it-is in connection with who wants to sell a shoddy article to the regulations or orders in council dealing with unfortunate homeseeker, the only conclusion the necessity for the treatment of lyctus­ I can arrive at is that they are so mentally susceptible timber. As far as I can see, lazy that they have not studied the Bill. apparently that is the main reason advanced by those who support the amendment but I The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr feel it is just in connection with that type Hilton) : Order! I ask the hon. member to of timber that we cannot tolerate any fur­ discuss the amendment. ther delay because if the amendment was An Opposition 1\'Iember: And get away carried it would mean that timber-millers from personal abuse. would still be able to sell perfectly lawfully Sit down, you are done. and builders and furniture-manufacturers Mr. Hiley: would still be able to use perfectly lawfully Mr. BURROWS: It would take a better any lyctus·susceptible timber, until at least man than the hon. member to knock me down. the end of the year. I for one will not sup­ The object of the amendment is to put off port any amendment that allows that. the evil day until 1950, and longer if possible. Hon. members opposite have neglected their Personally, my belief is that instead of duty here and in view of their many interests urging delay-and I am not C?~cerned outside we can understand their neglecting with votes here-we should be apolog1smg for their duties and responsibilities here as not having passed legislation of this k~nd members of Parliament. long before this. It is a tragedy to thmk This Bill has been on the business sheet that today some houses are virtually ruined since last session, but hon. members opposite because of the use of this timber. Some of contend that it is being rushed through. They these houses are paid for by people who will have had ample time to study the measure. not feel the effect financially, but there are Anybody in the trade who takes an intelligent some whose owners will. I will give my ow?­ interest in these matters has had long enough experience, and no doubt it was the e;cpen­ to prepare and hon. members opposite have ence of others, which apparently gave. nse to had long enough to shape up to their responsi­ this legislation. I was asked by a fnend to bilities in the matter. come in and have a look at a house. It was built by a reputable builder, so no fault could Mr. P ATERSON (Bowen) (3.32 p.m.) : I be found with the builder. The man who am opposed to the amendment. I cannot owned the house was not short of cash and see any reason at all for not immediately he was able to pay for a good house. Out­ implementing the provisions of the Bill. If wardly the house looked an excellent house. the amendment was carried it would mean He took me in and said, ''Have a look at the that no order in council or proclamation could ceiling." It was made of fibrous plaster. be gazetted until 1 January, 1950. Let us examine the effect the amendment The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Hilton): Order! T~at is covered by an would have. For that purpose it is necessary earlier clause of the B1ll. I cannot allow the to examine the clauses that relate to the issue hon. member to proceed in that strain. of orders in council and proclamations. For example, there is Clause 5, under which the lllr. p ATERSON: It will show ..the Governor in Council may issue an order in danger of delay. I had a look at the ce1lmg. council or a proclamation altering, increasing Had I not seen it, I should never have or amending the various trade names set out thought it was possible. The thought that in the schedule. It is obvious that there is came into my mind was that someone had no need for any delay in that connection been in that house with a revolver and had because no sawmiller or anybody engaged in taken pot shots at the ceiling. There were the building trade would need to install any hundreds of holes in it. If this amendment costly plant or machinery that would justify is carried that state of affairs will be con· delay in the making of a proclamation to add tinued. It is for that reason that I am to the number of trade names. As I said if opposed to the amen~ment1 for the soone~ we the amendment was carried it would m~an enforce this law, wh1ch will force the miller that the Governor in Council could not issue to treat susceptible timber, the better. an order in council or make a proclamation adding to the number of trade names. Mr. SPARKES (Aubigny) (3.38 p.m.) : Now let us turn to Clause 18, which pro­ The statements made by the two hon. mem­ vides for the issue of orders in council or bers who spoke prior to the hon. member who proclamations in respect of, amongst other has just resumed his seat were remarkable. things, the prescribing, regulating and con­ First we had the hon. member for Nundah, trolling of any matter or thing relating to who on this amendment giving millers thre~ the registration of brands and registered months' grace before the Act becomes ope:ra· brands under the Bill. Surely there is no tive, accused the Opposition of stone-walhng 646 Timber Users' [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

~nd holding up the Bill. He was really deny· . The ~E}IPORARY CHAIR~IAN: I have m.g the right of an Opposition to discuss any giVen h1m the right to discuss the matter B1ll. An Opposition have that right. That is contained in the amendment. the reason for the existence of the Opposi· tion. Then· the hon. member said that ~Ir. Wanstall interjected. admittedly we are only small in numbers. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: If the That is the idea of the dictator-crush the hon. member for Toowoong interrupts again small. That is the idea of the hon. member I shall r;ame him. I ask the hon. membe~ for Nundah. He would not have anything for Aub1gny to withdraw that remark of discussed. unfairness.

The TE~IPORARY CHAIR~IAN: Order! ~Ir. SPARKES: I withdraw that remark. The hon. member for Port Curtis in reply Mr. SPARKES: I am replying to what went on to say that the matter had been on he· said. the business sheet since last session. That shows that the Government can let it lie on The TEMPORARY CHAIR!IAN: Order! the business sheet for that long period and I ask the hon. member to deal with the now, when it comes to a matter of 'three amendment. months, they talk about not wanting the Mr. SP ARKES: Then we had the hon. snide builder to get an advantage. They member for Port Curtis coming along and have left it there for months and months and saying, "No, it is not right that we should now, because of a paltry three months they let these snide fellows come along.'' Then say everything is going to go wrong. The he added, "It was on the business sheet last hon. member for Port Curtis spilled the beans session.'' properly. It goes to show that when the Minister starts to talk on snide business how The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! the black-trackers follow him on the back Is the hon. member going to speak to the benches. The Opposition have a perfect right amendment~ to debate the Bill. It could be left on the business sheet from last session without any Mr. SPARKES: I am on the amendment. difficulty, but because we want to discuss it for a few days we are told we have not the The TE~IPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! right. The hon. member is not. ~Ir. Foley: You are trying to put it off till 1950. Mr. SPARKES: That is your opinion. Ur. SP ARKES: The hon. gentleman '1Ut The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! it off himself. When a Bill goes through it is I ask the hon. member to confine his remarks usual to give a certain amount of grace to to the amendment before the Committee. the people concerned. The request of the Opposition is not unusual at all. For that Mr. SPARKES: The amendment before the Committee is that we give millers three reason I resent particularly the remarks of months' grace before the enforcement of the hon. member for Nundah and the hon. this legislation. The hon. member for Port member for Port Curtis, and of the Minister Curtis pointed out reasons why we should not too. The Minister set a pretty bad example, give three months' grace. Surely I have the Mr. Foley: I never said a word. right to reply. You are not going to gag me The TE~IPORARY CHAIR~IAN: Order! there. The hon. member has already resented the The TE~IPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. remarks of hon. members on the Government Hilton): Order! I ask the hon. member to side at least five times. I warn him against withdraw that remark. I ask him to confine tedious repetition. his remarks to the amendment before the Mr. SPARKES: We do say that reason­ Committee. able grace should be given. It is only a reasonable request. The Opposition feel that Mr. 1SPARKES: You be fair. they are behind the Bill. We only want suffi­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I ask cient time to allow the Bill to be workable. you to withdraw that remark. Perhaps the hon. member for Nundah sees some monetary gain in defending some of Mr. SPARKES: What remark? those chaps who rush into the business. Perhaps that is what he sees. I do not doubt The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I ask he would look at it in that light. him to withdraw the remark. lUr. ROBERTS: I rise to a point of order. I take exception to the charge levelled Mr. SPARKES: Tell me the remark you want withdrawn. at me with respect to remarks I have made. The remarks of the hon. member are objec­ The TEMPORARY CHAIR~IAN: When tionable to me and I ask that he withdraw the hon. member said, ''Be fair.'' I have them. endeavoured to be scrupulously fair. I called The TEMPORARY CHAimiAN: I ask on two members on the Government side to the hon. member for Aubigny to accept the be relevant. denial of the hon. member for Nundah. An Opposition Member: Give him the Opposition Members: He did not deny right of reply. anything. Timber Users' [29 SEPTEMBER.) Protection Bill. 647

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. SPARKES: I said I would with­ I want to remind hon. members that they draw the words ''cur'' and ''dingo.'' Do are not going to make a circus of this Com­ you want me to go down on my knees~ mittee. I do not want continued interruption while I am speaking from the chair. That Mr. ROBERTS: I rise to a point of order. I must endeavour to remain calm in is my final warning in the matter. I ask view of the heat that is passing across 'the the hon. member for Nundah to · state his point of order. Chamber, but I distinctly heard the hon. member for Enoggera use the. expression, m:r. ROBERTS: My point of order is "You must be fair to a dingo." that the words of the hon. member for The TElUPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Aubigny to the effect that I perhaps seek Does the hon. member for Enoggera admit some monetary gain in the Bill before the making use of those words ~ Committee are objectionable to me and I ask that he be requested to withdraw those ~Ir. MORRIS: Mr. Hilton, this is becom­ words. ing a burlesque. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! The TE~IPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. member for Aubigny t o with­ If the hon. member r eferred to the hon. draw the words that the hon. member for member for Nundah as a dingo-- Nundah is probably receiving a monetary ~Ir. ~IORRLS: I did not. I merely said gain. that we must be fair to dingoes; must we Opposition lUembers: He never said it. not be fair to them f Order! Mr. SPARKE1S: I never said it, there­ The TEll'IPORARY CHAimiAN: fore I cannot withdraw it. I cannot withdraw ll'Ir. SPARKES: I have much pleasure what I did not say. in supporting the amendment, which is fair and reasonable. I cannot understand the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Minister's not accepting the amendment, I understand the hon. member for Nundah because it does not in any way affect the Bill, is objecting to the hon. member for Aubigny 's but merely delays the bringing of it in. imputing improper motives to him in stating that he was going to receive some monetary Question-That the word proposed to be reward. If the hon. member for Aubigny omitted (Mr. Muller's amendment) stand part denies making that statement I shall have of the clause-put; and the Committee to get a transcript from '' Hansard.'' divided- AYES, 30. Mr. SPARKES: But the hon. gentle­ Mr. Brassington Mr. Jones .man had no hesitation in saying that the ,, Brown .. Keyatta reason we were bringing forth this amend­ Bruce Larcombe ,. Burrows .. Marsden ment was that we were behind snide builders. , Clark Moo re (Government interjections.) As soon as he , Collins Moo res falls into it, he jumps up like the cur he is Davis O'Shea .. Donald , Paterson and the real dingo. · , Duggan .. Roberts .. Dunstan .. Taylor, J. R. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! .. Farrell ,. Theodore I ask the hon. member for Aubigny to with­ .. Fo!ey .. Turner draw the words ''cur'' and ''real dingo.'' .. Gair , 1 Grabam Tellers: Gunn Crowley Mr. SPARKES: All right. , Ingram , Jesson NoEs, 22. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. Aikens Mr. Miiller I ask for the withdrawal of those words. ,, Bjelke-Petersen Nicklin Chalk Pie ll'Ir. SPARKES: All right. Decker Plunkett .. Heading Russell .. Hiley Sparkes The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Kerr , Taylor, H. B. I ask the hon. member for Aubigny to stand , Low , Wanstall in his place, address the Chair, and withdraw Luckins those words. , Macdonald Tellers: , Marriott Evans .. Morris lUr. SPARKES: What do you want me , Mcintyre to do ~ PAIRS. AYES. NoEs. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: To 1\1r. Dev ries Mr. Madsen withdraw the expressions ''cur'' and ''real ,. Hanlon Maher dingo'' applied to the hon. member for , Power Brand Nundah. Resolved in the affirmative. Clause 19, as read, agreed to. Mr. SPARKES: Notwithstanding, I still say- - Schedule- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! 1\'Ir. ~IULLER (Fassifern) (3 .55 p.m.) : I ask for the withdrawal of those words. I move the following amendment- Very well, if the hon. member for Aubigny '' On page 16, line 48, omit the words­ refuses to withdraw those words I shall have ' Cedrela toona, var. australis .... no alternative. Red Cedar.' " 648 Timber Users' [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

The three timbers I have mentioned in my hope the hon. member for Fassifern will amendments are paFticularly old timbers and withdraw his amendment but in case he have been in use for many years. Nobody should not prefer to do that I propose to has suggested that they should be treated deal with the other timbers included in the until this question of treating scrub timbers copy of his amendment that was handed to that are now being used came up. Spotted me. gum is one of the best hardwoods-- The TEJliPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunstan) : The hon. gentleman must deal Hilton): The hon. member is treating the with the amendment before the Committee. three amendments as one. He is only per· l\Ir. FOLEY: Then I will deal only with mitted to move one amendment at a time. red cedar. It is possible for this sample Mr. MULLER: Then dealing with the of red cedar with sapwood attached to b!l first-named, I say that red cedar is rarely subject to the lyctus or powder borer, and attacked by the lyctus borer. The only place it is also possible for a manufacturer to where you will see the borer is in the sap. include it in a piece of furniture. That fur­ Red cedar is being used exclusively today for niture would be bought by a customer in furniture-manufacture and nobody would use good faith. I know that most manufae,turers the sapwood of red cedar for furniture­ will discard the sappy timber or if they do making. We have been using this timber for not do that, they will do as many have many years and nobody has ever complained already done, put in their own boric-acid that it was subject to attack by lyctus borer. baths and treat the timber before it is used If the ravages of the borer had been of any in the furniture. Innumerable complaints consequence we should have had complaints have been made to the Forestry Department years ago. We all know how valuable this by people who have bought affected furniture timber is and we know the demand that exists in good faith from reputable firms in tliis for it for furniture-making. If a manufac­ city. Probably the error was made in the turer desires to treat the timber he ca;1 do furniture factory but after buying the fur­ so, but to make it a hard and fast reg~tlation niture in good faith the buyer found that the that none of the timber can be used unless timber had been attacked by the lyctus treated seems to be perfectly ridiculous. borer. Whilst the Minister has been advised hy competent men in the Sub-department of 1\Ir. Sparkes: Would that be so if there Forestry, I think he will, after looking into was no sap on it~ the question, agree that there is no need Mr. FOLEY: No. The borer will not to include that timber in the schedule. attack the truewood. It attacks only the part Hon. T. A. :t;OLEY (Secretary for containing the sap because it is charged Public Lands and Irrigation) (3.59 p.m.): with starch; and, generally speaking, it does The amendment as originally submitted pro­ not attack it after two years from the vided for the omission of three species of sawing of the timber. After that period the timber from the schedule, namely, crow's ash, starch apparently dissipates and the sap tim­ spotted gum, and red cedar-- ber is then not so susceptible to attack. Mr. MULLER: I rise to a point of order. Mr. l\Iuller: Do you not think that any­ There appears to be some misunderstanding. one deserves all he gets if he buys red cedar I endeavoured to deal with those three tim­ with sap on it~ bers in one amendment but the hon. member How is he to know? for Carnarvon, who has just vacated the Mr. FOLEY: chair, ruled that we could only deal with Mr. Muller: You can see it. them separately. I therefore dealt with red 1\Ir. FOLEY: Not always. Let us cedar. assume that a piece of sappy red cedar is Mr. FOLEY: The copy of the amend­ included in a suite of upholstered furniture. ment given to me included three timbers. The buyer has no opportunity of seeing However, I will deal with the first, red whether it is subject to the lyctus borer or cedar. The schedule to the Bill contains not and it is only when the upholstery col­ 110 species of timber susceptible to lyctus­ lapses that he knows the damage is done. It borer attack, of which 102 are highly sus­ is then too late for him to complain. ceptible. There you have a big list of tim­ Mr. Muller: The manufacturer might bers susceptible to the attack, if of course put cardboard inside the upholstery. there is sapwood attaching to the truewood. I have gone to the trouble to get a piece of Mr. FOLEY: He might. The point I cedar with sapwood attached. It is the sap­ make is that the legitimate manufacturer is wood that is the susceptible part and the sap putting in his own plant today. Earlier in on red cedar is just as susceptible as the the debate I showed hon. members a number sap on any other type of timber. of large photographs of plants and read a list of manufacturers handling furniture Mr. Muller: You do not see sap on red timber who had put in their own plants in cedar. order to assure their customers that there Mr. FOLEY: The fact remains that if was no danger of attack by the lyctus borer a furniture-manufacturer used red timber with in their factories. They do not all do it, sap on it, especially in a suite of furniture consequently we must have this protection in that was upholstered, the result would be the Bill. that the upholstery would collapse because The same remarks apply to other timbers the sap had been attacked by the borer. I th:<,t have been mentioned. In fact, some of Timber Users' [29 SEPTEMBER.) Protection Bill. 649

them seem to be more susceptible. I have Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby­ here a sample of cedar sapwood that has Secretary for Public Lands and Irrigation) been attacked by lyctus. I have also been ( 4.10 p.m.) : I think the hon. member has advised by one of my officers that cedar not submitted the case properly. The Bill sapwood can be stained and wo;ked into does not impose any restriction on the use furniture and made to appear hke cedar of true spotted gum. It is correct to say truewood. The unsuspecting purchaser that spotted gum has a very thick sapwood does not know that it is sapwood but it is the truewood which is the greater until the borer attacks and destroys his fur­ portion of the log. There is no objection niture. It is necessary that red cedar should to the use of truewood; it is not susceptible. be left in the schedule. No-one will be hurt ~Ir. Muller: Are you suggesting that in the process and greater protection will be people use sapwood and treat it~ given to the public. Amendment (Mr. Muller) negatived. ~Ir. FOLEY: I will give an illustration. I made it my business to inquire from my Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) ( 4.6 p .m .) : officers whether they had any sample of I move the following amendment:- spotted gum that had been taken out of a "On page 17, line 15, omit the words- building as a result of complaints to the ' Eucalyptus citriodora, Spotted Gum'. '' department. I have a sample here that will To use plain Australian language, it is plain astound the hon. member for Fassifern. This silly to enact that we should treat spotted gum is a sample of spotted gum, which was used for the lyctus beetle. The Minister, in reply, as a batten supporting iibro-cement in a dis­ will probably say that the sap of spotted gum abled soldier's home. Here is another sample is subject to attack. You might as well say taeken f r om the ceiling batten for fibro­ that crow's ash or some other rubbish is sub­ cement in the home of a returned service ject to attack by borers. If you are going man who complained on 6 September, 1949. to use timber that is subject to lyctns attack, He bought the house complete with this timber then you might as well use the bark of in it. That is the position he finds him­ spotted gum. After all, the bark or the sap self in. He has to depend on the builder. of spotted gum will not last and no-one would The builder used this timber to support the use bark or purely sappy timber for build­ fibro-cement. A lot of it was taken out; ing a house or furniture. this is just a sample of it; and it is abso­ lutely pitted with powder-borer holes. Hon. I defy anyone to find me a better class of members must agree when they see samples timber than our spotted gum. Anyone accus­ like that taken out of a home that was pur­ tomed to milling spotted gum looks upon its chased in good faith there is ample justifica­ inclusion in this schedule as plain stupid. If tion for this legislation. spotted gum has to be treated for the lyctus borer then every class of timber will have I have another sample that is riddled in to be treated. By way of illustration, if you the same way. It was used as a batten leave enough sap even in ironbark and put behind plaster in the same home. How can that timber into a stack, in time borers will the owner find it~ He has to wait till the find their way into the truewood. That is powder begins to drop from the ceiling before the point. If you are going to treat spotted he is aware that the building is being eaten. gum you will have to treat everything. If I suggest that we leave the schedule as it is. you have to treat every class of timber, we A definite protection is provided by the Bill. ~mst face up to the fact that a lot of money I want to emphasise that the truewood in will be spent on treatment that will not be these timbers is not susceptible to lyctus necessary. borer and it does not come under the Bill. Where there is sapwood attaching to the I ask hon. members to give me instances truewood to any degree, such as I pointed where spotted gum has been attacked by out, and it is used in a building it is obvi­ ITCtus borer. I admit they might give me ously detrimental, and only causes distress ii1stances where its bark or the sap of imma­ and expense to the person who purchases the ture timber might be attacked. home in good faith. I suggest that the ~[r. Foley: I will give the hon. member amendment be dropped. a piece of timber as a sample and he can show it to the Committee, but will he shout ~Ir. S;E' ARKEtS (Aubigny) ( 4.14 p.m.) : I apprecrate the case made out by the Minis­ for the crowd if I give it to him~ ter. The piece of timber exhibited contains )lr. MULLER: It is against my prin­ onlJ: a _fraction of timber proper; the balance ciples to accept such a challenge. The Min­ of rt rs sapwood. Nobody with a grain of ister is only begging the question when in sense would try to use it. As far as spotted reply he says he can produce a piece of tim­ gum is concerned- ! will not talk of the ber if I will shout for the crowd. Young others; I am not conversant with them-none spotted-gum saplings should not be used. o~ it should _b~ used if it has sap on it. The When a man goes into a timber yard he prece the Mrmster has shown us is from the

Mr. Burrows: You are just attempting Minister exhibits a piece of timber that I to defer the Bill. venture to say is at least 90 per cent. sap­ wood. Under this legislation, if any person Mr. SPARKES: You got yourself and puts a piece of timber into a building with your party into enough trouble this after­ just a skerrick of sap he would be obliged noon: Probably no more than that width of to have it treated. you is any good either. lUr. Foley: No. Mr. BURROWS: I ris3 to a point of order. I take exception to the remark of lllr. lliULLER: The Bill says so: if there the hon . . member that there was not much is any sap on it, it must be treated. No of me any good. He can come outside and sensible person would buy the rubbish a try me out now. sample of which we have seen today. Amendment (Mr. Muller) negatived. Mr. SP ARKES: I will deal with-­ Mr. BURROWS: Mr. Dunstan, I ask for :J}Ir. MULLER (Fassifern) ( 4.20 p.m.) : a withdrawal. I move the following amendment- "On page 17, line 40, omit the words- The TElUPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunstan): Order! The hon. member is not '' Flindersia australis . . . Crow 's in order in saying that the hon. member Ash.''' used extra words that he did nob use. I This is another of our very fine timbers. The ask the hon. member for Aubigny not to be lyctus borer does not touch good crow 's ash. offensive to the hon. member for Port Curtis. It will attack it only if it contains a good deal of sap. Some of the best timber we Mr. SPARKES: I was pointing out that have for flooring purposes is crow 's ash. I so far as spotted gum is concerned even if have known it to be used in buildings for the whole of the sap is taken off the spouted years and years and even taken out of one gum should be thrown away. It is no good. building and used in another. Why, after we It i~ not a bit of good. Why persevere have used crow 's ash for the last 100 years with this~ In the sample produced by the in this country, have the Government sudden~y Minister. the actual timber is not much decided that it has to be treated before 1t thick()r than my nail. can be put into a building~ Mr. Foley: The fact remains that if it is treated in a boric-acid bath or borax it Mr. Farrell: You know that is wrong. will last for many years. It will not be Mr. MULLER: I know it is right, and attacked. the hon. member knows that what I say is right. Mr. SPARKES: That is the hon. gentle­ man'~ opinion and I will not argue with lllr. Farrell: You are talking about the ·him. I have my own opinion so far as real timber. ·spouted gum is concerned. :J}lr. MULLER: Yes, and it is timber that Mr. Foley: The sap wood will deteriorate we are supposed to put in buildings. It is more quickly than the truewood. ridiculous to talk about treating a bit of sap. Crow's ash is a wonderful timber and there Mr. SPARKES: It would not be any is no reason in the world why anyone should us·e. be asked to treat it. If this class of timber . must be treated I suflgest we might as well Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) ( 4.17 p.m.) : treat the lot and forget about the poor The sample brought by the Minister for our unfortunate man who has to build a home. inspection is really not spotted gum at all: We might as well let him pay the extra £1 it is rubbish. ·· A person who puts that type per hundred superficial feet and be done with of timber into a building should not be it. The Minister is taking a very narrow prosecuted but should be put in gaol. It view indeed on these matters. He knows that is not timber at all-not spotted gum. Why at least the timbers I have mentioned do should anybody be asked to treat spotted not require to be treated and should not be gum because a builder has been using stuff induded in the schedule. like bhat~ It might be put in a bath but does anyone imagine that any person in 1iis llir. BURROW'S (Port Curtis) (4.23 senses would permit a builder to use that p.m.) : I do not know whether the borer class of timbed Furthermore, any person operates differently in the hon. member's dis· .who would carry rubbish like that away trict. Perhaps it does. We have a scrub from a timber-yard should be sent to the timber that is very similar to crow's ash and mental hospital ab Goodna. He would be we call it Flindersia. I suggest that hon. mad. In my life I have seen a fair amount members have a look at the timber on the of building done but I have never seen veranda of Parliament House and see for timber like that used, even in a fowl-hom·e. themselves the amount of sapwood in that If rubbish like that is going to be used I flooring. If we prohibit the use of sap alto­ repeat that it would be just as well to use gether it will increase the cost of building to bark. But why introduce legislation com· a far greater extent than if we required pelling the treatment of spotted gum because timbers to be treated three times. As an there is a bit of sap on iU There might example, take a 5 by 2 joist, which is an be just a skerrick, 1 per cent. of 1 per important piece of timber in a building. cent. of the thickness of a board, but the There might be one corner of sap on it. If .Timber Users' Protection Bill. [29 SEPTEMBER.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. 651

that length is to be rejected it will mean that percentage of sap if he puts in a treatment the amount of available timber will be reduced plant to treat those timbers that contain the considerably. I should say that there would sap and that may be in his own interests. be at least 20 or 30 per cent. If hon. mem· That is all he has to do. Before the intro· bers went out on to the veranda, which has duction of this Bill we had thro_ughout not been long relaid, and rejected every piece Queensland a number of plants put in by of timber showing traces of sap, I submit sawmillers, joinery men and furniture· that you would lose more than 20 per cent. manufacturers capable of handling in all 10 of it. million superficial feet .of timber a year. llr. Sparkes: Would you use sapwood Those plants were installed without the pass­ yourselH ing of this Bill. The men concerned installed them because they could use a greater per­ Mr. BURROWS: I have yet to see the centage of timbers found in the scrubs in house built that did not have some timber the North and the South and give a better containing sap. I do not profess to be a article to their clients. Jack-of-all-trades but I know what I am saying in this respect. There is sitting in The point I make is that if any of this the lobby at this moment a gentleman from timber t hat is used for flooring, battening or my electorate who will support what I have in any other part of the house has sap said in regard to crow 's ash. I do not know attaching to it, the insect will get into it and whether this timber behaves differently in eat it to powder in a very short time. That other electorates than mine, but the borers weakens the structure, wherever the timber get up out of bed to have a go at crow 's is used. ash if there is a bit about. This schedule has been carefully considered In a previous amendment the Opposition by our foresters. Officers of the C.S.I.R.O., · tried to hold up the passage of this Bill; in working in conjunction with the scientific another amendment they want the Government officers of the Forestry Department, have had to protect the use of timbers and the only this matter under consideration for years consistent thing about them is their incon­ and have now given us a schedule of timbers sistency. that are highly susceptible to this borer. They have also provided us with a method Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby­ of treating the timber. I am asking that the Secretary for Public Lands and Irrigation) schedule be allowed to remain intact. If a ( 4.27 p.m.) : I have in my hand a rather miller finds that he has timber containing hefty piece of crow 's ash and I feel that sap susceptible to the borer he will commit the Leader of the Opposition thinks that I an offence if he informs ·the ·person buying should throw it at the hon. member for it that it is free from the borer. A buyer Fassifern for the poor knowledge of timbers can ask for non-susceptible timber and thll he has exhibited this afternoon. Hon. mem­ miller will then indicate that he has supplied bers will see the part containing the truewood such timber. If the miller has small parcels in this sample-both sides contain sap. of timber of varying sizes, timbers Mr. lluller: It is only taken out of a suitable for use as battens, available for sale sapling. in mixed lots, and sells it in that form, the onus is on the person getting it to see that it Mr. FOLEY: No, out of a board. The is not used where its use would be detrimental fact remains that this is a piece of crow 's unless it is treated. otherwise he is ash similar to that used every day of the liable to be prosecuted for an offence week in every wee~' of the year. On both under the Bill. Therefore, I cannot accept sides it is simply perforated with lyctus borer. the amendment. Hon. members said that it was a very fine flooring timber- Amendment (Mr. Muller) negatived. Opposition llembers: And so it is. Schedule, as read, agreed to. Mr. FOLEY: If a snide builder or a Bill reported with amendments. fellow who wants to take you down buys this type of timber and puts it into a floor the whole of the sapwood will eventually be eaten TUBERCULOSIS AGREEMENT BILL. to powder and the flooring will have to be taken up. All we are asking is that any COMMITTEE. such timber go through the treatment process. If he takes the truewood, then the truewood (Mr. Dunstan, Gympie, in the chair.) does not come within the provisions of the Clause 1-Short Title-as read, agreed to. Bill as it is only the susceptible timber that is dealt with. The sap contains starch and Clause 2-Arrangement with the Com- the borer attacks the starch as soon as it is monwealth- put into the building. lir. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of Mr. lluller: Will the Minister tell me the Opposition) ( 4.35 p.m.) : I move the when a miller has to start treating and when following amendment- he has to stop~ '' On page 2, line 10, omit the words­ Mr. FOLEY: It is not necessary for ' the draft whereof' the miller to spray or put in a treatment plant unless he wishes to do so. He can use and insert in lieu thereof the word­ a greater number of the timbers with a 'which'." 652 Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill.

We are being asked to approve of a draft Minister in asking this Parliament to agree agreement in which this Parliament will to what, after all, is a draft agreement and have no say after the Bill i's proclaimed. not a final agreement. lt is not rig1lt that this Parliament should Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) ( 4.42 be asked to agree to a draft agreement and p.m.) : I want to make a few remarks in that the draft agreement should be altered support of the amendment, because when it after this Parliament has given considera­ is all said and done I believe that Parliament tion and approval to it and that it should should always be informed of what the not have the opportunity to consider any Government propose to do. So far as I am alterations that might be made. concerned that is the purpose of the amend­ The Minister stated that this is not a draft ment. I want, at this stage, in order to drive agreement that this is a final agreement, an home the force of the argument advanced by agreement' that only requires the si~natures the Leader of the Opposition, to refer to some of the Prime Minister and Premier. If remarks made by the Minister on the second that is so why call it a draft ~ I have reading, in which he misinformed the House· looked .up the meaning of the word ''draft'' and if he misinformed the House it is quit~ in the Oxford Dictionary. It is defined there likely we have been misinformed in regard to as ''drawn up in a preliminary form,'' the draft copy of the agreement. I am not ''.a rough sketch of a writing or document, suggesting that the Minister deliberately mis­ fr.om which the final or fair copy ie made'' informed the House; I suggest somebody and ''drawn up as a rough form whence a deliberately misinformed the Minister. The fair copy can be made.'' All interpreta­ Minister said that at W estwood they had so tions of the meaning of ''draft'' show it many vacant beds that they could not get to be a copy of a final agreement that may patients to fill them. be made and is s

The TEJIPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. of the Commonwealth and the Premier. If Dunstan): Order! I rule that the amend­ hon. members peruse the schedule they will ment moved by the Leader of the Opposition see at the end thereof- deals with what is set out. The agreement "Dated this day of , 1949. is in the schedule, which can be debated later. By His Excellency's Command, llr. AIKENS: Very well, Mr. Dunstan; Prime Minister. if you rule that way I hope you are in the By His Excellency's Command, chair when we are discussin,g the schedule. Premier.'' I hope we shall not have another Chairman There are spaces left for the sig~ature of the with another change of opinion. If you give Prime Minister and the Premier and the me a guarantee that you will occupy the chair draft, having been ~igned by the Prime when debating the schedule and let me deal Minister and the Premier, becomes the agree­ with that point, I am prepared to wait until ment. It is really only a draft until it is the schedule is debated. Talk about Rafferty signed. I am not a legal man ~nd prob_a?ly rules! some of our legal friends are m a positlOn Mr. POWER: I rise to a point of order. to deal with this point more effectively than Is the hon. member in order in referring to I am. your ruling as Rafferty rules. As the hon. There is no doubt about it at all. If this member for Mundingburra sat down, he said agreement can be altered from time to ti~e '' Rafferty rules.'' at the whim o.f myself or the Executive l.Ur. AIKEN,S: I said, "Talk about Rafferty Council, why include Clause 10 of the rules!'' schedule which says- '' This arrangement shall be in force for }Ir. POWER: That is a reflection on the Chairman. a period of ten years computed as from the first day of July, one thousand nine hund­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! red and forty-eight, and prior to the date I ask the hon. member for Mundingburra to of its expiration the Commonwealth and withdraw the words '' Rafferty rules.'' the State shall confer with a view to a fur­ ther arrangement being entered into"~ Mr. AIKENS: I will withdraw the words. I withdraw the refl-ection on you. It was a J.Ur. Nicklin: That is just a draft clause. statement of my opinion as to the general conduct of business in this Chamber by the Mr. JONES: If that clause means Labour Party. nothing, we might as well do away with the Bill altogether. If it means nothing, we Mr. PIE (Windsor) (4.47 p.m.): All the have been talking a lot of rot for two or Leader of the Opposition wants to know is three days. All this Bill does is ratify an this: is this draft agreement the final agree­ arrangement with the Commonwealth Gov­ ment or is it an agreement that is to be ernment and all this Parliament is doing is altered or assented to without coming back authorising the Premier of Queensland to to this Parliament for final ratification~ Can sign it on behalf of the Parliament of the Minister or any other person alter this Queensland, and the Prime Minister will sign draft agreement without reference to Par­ on behalf of the Commonwealth Parliament. liament~ That is what the Leader of the I admit that I am not an authority on the Opposition wants to know and I agree with drafting of legislation, but I do know that him that it is wrong in principle for this identical wording is used in similar legis­ Parliament to pass a draft agreement. If lation considered by other Parliaments. this draft agreement is final and does not Surely the other Parliaments are not going to have to be altered there should be no objec­ pass legislation more or less just for a joke~ tion to accepting the amendment but if this If the interpretation placed on this clause draft agreement can be altered without being by the Leader of the Opposition is correct brought back to Parliament for final ratifica· then we are just wasting time. If I or tion that is wrong in principle and is some­ the Executive Council or someone else could thing that we on this side of the House will alter the agreement just to suit our whim, fight. it would be wrong, but once this is signed Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers-Sec­ by the Premier and the Prime Minister it retary for Health and Home Affairs) ( 4.49 becomes the agreement. p.m.) : Already on two occasions I have dealt Let us assume that I ask a legal man to with this question very fully. I am astounded prepare a document for me to sign. Until that the Leader of the Opposition should have I sign that document it is· a draft. After moved the amendment. Quite candidly I I and the other party to it have signed, it think the hon. gentleman has been misinformed becomes an agreement and that is all this as to the interpretation o£ the clause. It clause means. It says- is quite definite. It states- '' The Governor in Council is hereby '' The Governor in Council is hereby authorised to enter into the arrangement, a authorised to enter into the arrangement, copy of the draft whereof is set out in the a copy of the draft whereof is set out in Schedule to this Act, with the Governor­ the schedule to this Act-'' General of the Commonwealth.'' I have made the point on more than one There is not the slightest doubt about the occasion: the agreement referred to is the matter in my opinion. I should be the last draft agreement in the schedule to the Bill. man in the world to bring before this The schedule to the Bill becomes the agree­ Chamber something that I thought meant ment when it is signed by the Prime Minister nothing at all. 654 Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill.

Mr. MORRIS (Enoggera) ( 4.53 p.m.) : is the ultimate agreement between the State The Minister said that the schedule really and the Commonwealth and is therefore no comprised a copy of the agreement that is to longer a draft. be signed by the Premier and the Prime Minister, and then he said, ' 'Once it is In his speech the Minister contended that signed it becomes the agreement.'' I do not it was the correct usage to refer to the final agreement set out in writing on paper think any hon. member would argue that as a draft agreement until the moment it anything else would be the position. was signed. I odo not understand the use Mr. Jones: The Leader of the Opposi­ of the word ''draft'' in that sense. I under­ tion says that is not so. stand a draft to be a preliminary setting down of terms for the purpose of discus­ Mr. Nicklin: No. Once it is signed it is sion. Tha.t is what a draft is as the term the agreement. is commonly used amongst conveyancers. Mr. Jones: But you say we can alter it. When negotiations are going on between two prospective parties to an agreement they Mr. Nicklin: Yes, before the Premier set down on paper the points on which they and the Prime Minister sign it. have agreed already and the points on which they still require discussion. They discuss Mr. lUORRIS: I know it is not submitted the points, and arising from the discussion by the Leader of the Opposition or any hon. there is an agreement on the terms and the member on this side that once this thing is agreement is that finally arrived at. I under­ signed it can be altered. We want to know stood the Minister to say that the schedule whether this is a true copy of the agreement is the final agreement and therefore I do that will be signed by the Prime Minister not think it right to refer to it as a draft. and the Premier. If it is an exact copy of the agreement that is going to be signed There is also the precedent referred to by then the word ''which'' sought to be inse·rted the Leader of the Opposition in regard to by the Leader of the Opposition in lieu of what is known as the Blair Athol Bill, a ''the draft whereof'' will be acceptable not principle that has been operating on every only to this side but also to the· Minister other occasion that Parliament passed legisla­ himself. I am quite sure that up to now tion of this kind. We have never referred to the Minister has not quite understood the the complete agreement as anything but the object of the amendment. The amendment agreement. We have never called it a draft. merely means that we on this side want to be In relation to Blair Athol, the schedule was sure that th~J exact words appearing in the not signed until after Parliament passed it. schedule, which in effect is the agreement Consequently there should be no objection to between the Commonwealth and the States, calling this the agreement to the Bill. are in actual fact the exact words that will The Minister said that it would be waste of be included in the agreement to be signed time asking Parliament to pass validating finally. If that is so, there can be no objec­ legislation if the Executive Council could tion whatever to the use of the word amend or come to a different agre.ement. I ''which.'' do not agree with him. I am . sure the The Minister said that the· same words Minister is not saying that the Executive appearing in clause 2 of this Bill appear in Council has tno·t power to e11;ter into an other Bills in other States. We are quite agreeme,nt with another Government without prepared-- having Parliament validate it at all. That falls within the general atrthority of the 1\lr, Jones: In relation to this legislation. Executive to reach agreements with other persons or Governments, if it wants to. As an Mr. MORRIS: I accept the correction. elementary principle of democracy the Execu­ The Minister said that the same words that tive would bring the agreement before Parlia­ appear here are used in Bill& being presented ment for ratification. m the other States, but I say that that does not exclude the possibility that there might Mr. Jones: We are authorising the be a mistake. The same words that are Premier to sign it. proposed by the Leader of the Opposition are the words that are used in many Bills Mr. WAN STALL: Then why insist on on our statute book. The, argument we are calling it a drafU presenting becomes more logical because we If this is an agreement, then let us call want to follow a precedent already estab· it an agreement and not insist on calling it lished. If the Minister will look at it from a draft agreement, which gives rise to the that viewpoint he will realise that we want to doubt that the Leader of the Opposition has be certain that this is the wording that will in mind. be signed and therefore he · will accept the amendment. Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­ Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (5 Mr. WANSTALL (Toowong) (4.56 p.m.): p.m.) : I am rather surprised at the turn the The argument of the Minister was that the, debate on this matter has taken. First of schedule to the Bill represents the agreement all, the hon. member for Enoggera said that that will be signed by the Premier of this he had no doubt at all that the agreement State and the Prime Minister of Australia. as laid down in the schedule would eventually I think that that was his argument, and if become the signed agreement. that is so then it is the very best argume;nt in the world for accepting the amendment, Mr. llorris: No. I said that you had because the agreement scheduled in the Bill not told us that. Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. [29 SEPTEMBER.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. 655

Mr. JONES: Then he went on to say If they are prepared to be loose in the draft­ that it was more than likely that the agree­ ing of their legislation, we are not. I do ment could be altered. That is a rather not think it is right or fair that the Minister suspicious remark to make in a Legislative should ask us to agree to a draft agreement. Assembly,. and you might just as well say ?'he hon. member for Toowong has also that after a Bill has been passed something pomted out that on all other occasions when might be done to change some of the clauses. legislation has been introduced into this Mr. Morris: No. Parliament dealing with agreements they have been specifically referred to as agree· lUr. JONES: You might just as well ments, not draft agreements. argue that way. Hon. members opposite are just quibbling, because there is no suggestion lllr. Wanstall: Thereby limiting the by them that eventually the agreement con­ authority of the Executive to the agreement. tained in the schedule will not be the agree­ ment that will be signed by the Premier and Mr. NICKLIN: Exactly. Why should there be this change ~ Instead of referring the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth. to it as an agreement we are now referring Their only objection apparently is that it to it as a draft. If the Minister looks at might be altered. the end of the schedule he will see that there Mr. Wanstall: That it is possible to do is a space left for the Prime Minister and that. · Premier to sign it. Look at the end of the agreement with respect to Blair Athol and Mr. JONES : When? you will see there, too, a space for the lUr. Wanstall: Before it is signed. Premier to sign. JUr. JONES: In any case, the proclama­ Mr. Jones: There is no analogy. tion has to be laid on the table of the House and hon members can object. Mr. NICKLIN: It is exactly the same. There we were asked to agree to an agree­ Mr. Nicklin: No, we cannot. men.t in r egard to the Blair Athol area. If, as the Minister says, the agreement in the lUr. JONES: Hon. members opposite schedule of this Bill is the final draft of that can object if they so desire. I think hon. agreement why is there any objection to members opposite are over-straining the point. allowing this clause to say so specifically There is nothing in their argument. I instead of asking this Parliament to sign a certainly would not consider entertaining the blank cheque by giving authority to the amendment, because I do not think it would Premier to agree to a draft~ If hon. mem· ·get us anywhere at all. bers opposite are agreeable to signing blank Mr. JUORRIS (Enoggera) (5.2 p.m.) : eheques we on this side are not. Let me make my point clear. A draft can ~Ir. PIE (Windsor) (5.7 p.m.): We legally be altered at any time, but when an cannot let this clause go in its present form. agreement is signed it cannot be altered. The Minister or any other man who has had That is the difference. If you call it an anything to do with buying or purchasing agreement, then, as the Leader of the a house, or negotiating for anything at all, Opposition suggests, it becomes the agree· knows that the first thing he says to his ment, and the position would be different from the case in which it was called a draft. That solicitor is, ''Will you prepare an agreement is obvious to everybody. When you prepare for us~" or "Will you prepare a draft agree­ a draft you prepare something that is subject ment for us to finally discuss and decide to ·alteration, but when you prepare an agree­ on W' ', and then when you come to an agree­ ment for signature you prepare something that ment signatures are attached. is not subject to alteration. That is the I can understand the Minister's attitude. difference I want to point out. This is the big fault in uniform legislation that has to be passed by all States. What is Mr. NICI{LIN (Murrumba-Leader of behind the Minister's mind is that this l~gis­ the Opposition) (5.3 p.m.): I cannot under­ lation has, in its entirety, been passed by stand the Minister's attitude on this matter­ other State Parliaments. He does not want he is usually a most reasonable Minister. I the Queensland Parliament to be the one to think· we can all agree-the Minister has alter it-if we did so it would have to go already agreed-that this is only a draft ·tack to all Parliaments to be reconsidered in agreement. A draft is only a preliminary its proper form. We had the same thing in to an agreement. There could be ten drafts the Trade Coupons Act Amendment Bill in before the final agreement was arrived at . I 1948. That legislation was a result of an do not for a moment suggest that either the agreement by :.ill other Parliaments, .and it Minister or his Government propose to alter went through- this Parliament in the same the agreement contained in the schedule, but form as in other Parliaments. I say very is it fair that we in this Parliament should definitely that if .other Parliaments are pre· be asked to agree to a draft agreement~ pared to accept legislation in this fo rm­ and in principle that is wrong-then we in ~Ir. ~!orris: To sign a blank cheque. the Queensland Parliament should surely be ~Ir. NICKLIN: In other words, to sign able to amend it and not assume that a draft a blank cheque~ Apparently the only reason agreement is a final agreement. It is not. why mention is made of a draft agreement A draft agreement is subject to discussio n in the Bill is• that the other States have also and that . is the distinction we .are trying to referred to it as a draft in their legislation. make. - ;,., .. · 656 Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill.

Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (5:8 NoEs, 20. p.m.) : What I have to convince myself IS Mr. Aikens Mr. Miiller whether I am prepared to trust the Govern­ Blelke-Petersen Nicklin ment not to alter the draft agreement. To Decker Pie be quite candid, I would not trust the present ., Evans Russell Heading Spackes .Government with a bent halfpenny. H!!ey .. Taylor, H. B . .. Kerr Wanstall A Government Member: We would not Low trust you, either. Macdonald Tellers: Marriott Luckins Mclntyre Morris Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­ Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) PAIRS. (5.9 p.m.): The hon. member for Munding­ AYES., NoEs. burra said he would not trust the Govern­ Mr. Devries Mr Brand ment with a bent halfpenny but I do not Hanlon Maher Hllton ., Madsen suppose anyone cares twopence about the Smith Plunkett same gentleman. Resolved in the affirmative. Hon. members opposite are really quibbling on this matter. They are not putting up any Mr. lUORRIS (Enoggera) (5.15 p.m.): other argument than a suggestion that we This clause, if carried, authorises us to enter might alter the agreement. That to me does into an agreement with the Commonwealth not make sense. That is exemplified by the for the treatment of T.B. That brings me hon. member who has just resumed his seat. to a point that is of vital importance. When He said he did not trust the Government and speaking the other day the Minister told us that it might alter the agreement. Govern­ the Government would, if they thought it ments are entrusted with signing all sorts of desirable and wise, introduce mass X-ray documents and agreements as a result of testing for tuberculosis. legislation. Personally, if I thought the amendment was going to get us anywhere The TE~IPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. and was not going to effect the legislation Dunstan) : Order ! anywhere else I should be quite prepared to accept it. ~Ir. ~IORRIS: I submit that what I am about to say is very relevant and I think you I say again that it is an agreement that will see that it is tied up in the clause. If will be signed by the Premier and the Prime we accept this Bill we must realise that Minister of the Commonwealth if approved many people will be X-rayed to determine by this Parliament. For that reason I can­ whether or not they have tuberculosis. not for the life of me see why I should accept the amendment. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I remind the hon. member Clause 2 deals Mr. WAN STALL (Toowong) (5.11 p.m.) : with the authority of the State to enter into The Minister said that if he thought it would an agreement with the Commonwealth Gov­ get us anywhere he would be prepared to ernment in the terms of the schedule. accept the amendment. I will show him that it would make it legally impossible for Mr. MORRIS: Whether we should enter the Premier to sign with the Commonwealth into an agreement with the Commonwealth any agreement that departs in one word from Government depends entirely on whether harm the schedule of this Bill, or one comma, can come to. the people by taking mass X-rays whereas if the Bill goes through in its pres­ and for that reason I maintain that what ent form calling the agreement a draft and I am about to say is very relevant to this authorising the Premier to sign it, it will clause. enable the Premier to make alterations in that agreement before it is signed with the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Commonw(lalth. That is the difference. I The hon. member is not in order in discussing suggest that it is much more than a quibble; mass X-rays now. it is a matter of principle. Mr. MORRIS: Very well, in that case Question-That the word proposed to be I will reserve my remarks till we are consider­ omitted from Clause 2 (Mr. Nicklin 's amend­ ing the schedule. ment) stand part of the clause-put; and the Committee divided- Clause 2, as read, agreed to. AYES, 28. Clause 3-Arrangement to be published in Mr. Brown Mr. Jones Gazette- Bruce Keyatta Burrows Larcombe Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of Cl ark Marsden the Opposition) (5.19 p.m.): I have an Collins Moo re Crowley Moo res amendment to move on this clause and it is .. Dav!s O'Shea connected with the amendment moved previ­ Donald Power ously, the purpose of which was to have the .. Duggan Roberts Farrell Taylor, J. R. draft agreement made the final agreement. .. Foley Theodore We have now agreed to something and if Gair the Bill goes through as it is we shall have Gunn Tellers: , Ingram Graham no further say in regard to the draft agree-­ ~reason , Turner ment in tbe schedule. Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. [29 SEPTEMBER.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. 657

This Parliament has many rigilits an,d. that is a matter covered by the Standing privileges, one of them being the right to Orders, and more or less at the discretion of discuss any proclamation, order in council, Mr. Speaker or the Chairman of Committees. or regulation that may be issued under any I am prepared to accept the amendment up legislation and to say yea or nay to it, but to the word ''meantime.'' I do not think in this Bill we are asked in the first place there is any harm in it. to agree to a draft agreement which, being a draft, can be altered if desired, and in the Mr. Nicklin: Taking out the last next clause we are told we are not to have sentence~ any further say in connection with the draft agreement when it is proclaimed by order Mr. JONES: Yes. in council. It is certainly laid on the table Mr. Nicklin: I agree to that. of this House, but all this Parliament can do is peruse it, not deal with it. That is Amendment (Mr. Nicklin) withdrawn. taking from Parliament one of its greatest Mr. NICKLIN (Murrum'ba-Leade:r of privileges, that of keeping a check on the the Opposition) (5.28 p.m.): I move the Executive to see that it does not exceed the following amendment- powers given to it. '' On page 2, after line 28, add the That being so, I move the following amend­ following paragraph- ment:- ' If Parliament passes a resolution '' On page 2, after line 28, add the fol­ disallowing such Proclamation, of which lowing paragraph- resolution notice has been given at any '!£ Parliament passes a resolution dis­ time within fourteen sitting days of allowing such Proclamation, of which such House after such Proclamation has resolution notice has been given at any been laid before it, such Proclamation time within fourteen sitting days of such shall thereupon cease to have effect, but House after such Proclamation has been without prejudice to the validity of any­ laid before it, such Proclamation shall thing done in the meantime. ' '' thereupon cease to have effect, but with­ out prejudice to the validity of anything Amendment agreed to. done in the meantime. Upon such Clause 3, as amended, agreed to. notice being given as aforesaid, Parlia­ ment shall deal with it within three Schedule- sitting days thereafter and a reasonable period for debate thereon shall be Mr. MORRIS (Enoggera) (5.29 p.m.): I allowed.' '' move the following amendment- That protects us against the blank cheque "On page 2, line 46, after the word we have already given to the Executive by 'facilities,' insert the words- agreeing to clause 2, in which we have agreed ' including eomp\llsory tests. ' '' to a draft agreement that, legally, is an I said that compulsory tests were necessary, agreement that is not final and can be altered and I still believe that, although for a certain · before being signed. As this clause provides period my faith in the advocacy of that prin­ that when the agreement to which we have ciple was somewhat shaken. I read in the agreed in the previous clause is proclaimed ''Courier-Mail'' of 28 September-- bv order in council this Parliament is finished with it altogether, so that if, as could be The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. done, an alteration is made, we should have Dunstan) : I question whether the amendment no say in it whatsoever. This amendment is in order. I rule that the Committee cannot should be accepted to return to Parliament amend the schedule. its prerogative of being able to keep a check on the acts of the Executive. Mr. Aikens: Are we discussing the schedule' A reference to the Blair Athol legislation authorising the agreement between the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Hon. Government of this State and the Electric members can discuss it, but you cannot Supply Corporation (Overseas) Limited, will amend it. disclose that a similar provision is included • in section 5 dealing with proclamations of Mr. MORRIS: Do I understand, Mr. orclers in council. This amendment is almost Dunstan, that you have ruled my amendment word for word the same as the provision in out of order~ that legislation. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers- Sec­ Dunstan) : The schedule cannot be amended retary for Health and Home Affairs) (5.26 but hon. members may discuss the schedule. p.m.): I do not see any great objection to the amendment moved by the Leader of the Mr. MORRIS. On an earlier stage of the Opposition except the latter part reading- Bill I expressed the opinion that it was '' Upon such notice being given as afore­ absolutely necessary to provide for compulsory said Parliament shall deal with it within diagnosis by X-ray and skin tests if tuber· three sitting days thereafter and a culosis was to be tackled effectively. After reasonable period for debate thereon shall I expressed that opinion I read a statement in be allowed. ' ' ''The Telegraph'' of 27 September and in It is' not usual to have in legislation a pro­ "The Courier-Mail" of 28 September in vision as to the period of debate, because which Dr. Ryan, an alderman of the Brisbane 658 Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill.

City Council, had expressed an entirely Mr. MORRIS: M.C. stands for Military contrary opinion. This is a report of his Cross and F.R.C.P. for Fellow of the Royal remarks- College of Physicians. '' Mass X-rays cause an appalling rise in Mr. P -ower: Are you reading that out of deaths from pulmonary tuberculosis,' Alder­ a bookW man Ryan stated in a notice of motion which he gave in the Brisbane City Council lllr. MORRIS: No, I am not readi~g it yesterday.'' out of the book. The article is a particu­ I do not think that a more disturbing report larly interesting one. It refers generally to Qn this disease has ever gone out to the the incidence of T.B. in England and Scot­ general public. It is disturbing for man_y land over the past few years. It states that reasons. ]<' irst of all, the people who read 1t in Scotland the number of known cases since will endeavour to the utmost to avoid the 1945 has risen considerably. possibility of being subjected to an X-ray Dr. Ryan, having quoted this article, said Qr skin test to discover whether they have that he was sure the reason for the great tuberculosis. The article will in fact develop increase in the number of cases in Scotland in the minds of the public a great fear lest since 1945 was that these people had become the X-ray or skin test gives them active active sufferers from T.B. as a result of mass tuberculosis. X-ray treatment. I say that statement is wrong. Dr. Elliot, in the conclusion of his The TElUPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! article, says- I cannot allow the hon. member to discuss something that is not contained in the '' One speculation is that there may have schedule. He must confine his remarks to the been an introduction of a more active strain schedule and not discuss matters extraneous of infection into Scotland in the consider­ to it. able Polish migration that took place in the early days 'of the war. It may not be lUr. l\IORRIS: Mr. Dunstan, I draw your so; but, at any rate, there certainly was attention to the second paragraph of the a mass movement to our country of a popu· schedule, line 39, which says- lation which in its own country is highly '' ... it was agreed that the Common­ susceptible to tuberculosis and has a high wealth and the several States should tuberculosis rate-a population which after­ participate in a campaign to reduce as wai·ds was intermingled very intensively soon as possible and as far as possible the with the Scottish people.'' · incidence of tuberculosis in Australia.'' Dr. Elliot goes on to suggest that the in­ How are we to reduce the incidence of tuber­ crease in T.B. in Scotland might be due that statement, which will upset the people, impression that X-ray either causes or to come out and contradict it, if he believes stimulates the T .B. bacilli in the individual, it ·to be wrong. That is what I am doing and the X-ray examination is alone responsible­ and I am referring to the opinion of a large for the high incidence of the disease. number of doctors also. Not one of those The schedule provides that the State Gov­ doctors agreed that mass X-ray would have ernment shall be reimbursed for any capital the slightest effect on increasing T .B. I expenditure on buildings maintained :for the: hope that that fact becomes well known. treatment of T.B. At this juncture I think I . In a few years we shall come to the belief shall be in order in quoting what the Govern­ that at present exists in England, namely, ment are doing at the present time in regard that mass X-ray and skin tests should be to T.B. The Minister was reported in the compulsory. When they do, we most sincerely "Courier-Mail" of 23 September, 1949, as: hope that the public will not have been saying that of 90 beds at the W estwood frightened or-as the hon. member for Ken­ Sanatorium 50 were empty. That statement. nedy said-scared as a result of the state­ is not true. Whether the Minister is respon­ ment. sible for the untruth or whether his advisers; are I do not know. }lr. Jones: I read that article and the worst feature was that Dr. Ryan did not Mr. Jones: Why not quote "Hansard,'" put all the facts when he was putting that not the "Courier-Mail" ~ motion, and that is misleading. }lr. AIKENS: I heard the hon. gentle­ }lr. MORRIS: I am glad that the man say it, and I think it was the Acting Minister made that remark. All the facts Premier who prompted him to make the­ were not given. It was suggested that the statement. rise in T.B. in Scotland was very great. That This is the position at W estwood: there is · not so. The general rate over the whole are four wards with 23 beds each. No. 1 of Scotland was great. In 1946 the total rate ward has been partitioned and converted for per 100 thousand from all forms of T.B. in use as nurses' quarters. No. 2 ward is empty, Scotland was- because of the shortage of staff. No. 3 Aberdeen 46, ward is being used as a male ward, with Edinburgh 76, three extra beds on the veranda. No. 4 ward Dundee 87, is being used as a female ward, with only a Glasgow 132. couple of vacant beds, soon to be tilled. The The point I make is this: in two or three available bed accommodation at Westwood· highly industrialised centres, the increase in is not only tilled but over-tilled because there are three beds on the veranda of the male T.B. was very great indeed, but in others ward. there was virtually no increase over the same period, notwithstanding the fact that the Mr. Jones: I said that Westwood would. populations of Ulose areas were mass X-rayed, accommodate 90 patients. as well as the population in the areas of Glasgow and some of the other places. So )lr. AIKENS: I have no intention of there is absolutely no ground whatsoever for placing any incorrect interpretation on any­ any belief or fear that X-ray will have any thing the Minister said, but I was under effect on making active any latent T.B. within exactly the same impression from the Minis­ any person. ter's remarks as was the ''Courier-Mail '' and it is not often that I agree with the I believe we should consider this matter ''Courier-Mail'' reports of parliamentary from another point of view also. I read in proceedings. I was under the same impres­ the ''Telegraph'' of 2 September the follow­ sion that there were 90 beds at Westwood ing paragraph referring to T.B. legislation but because the patients did not like to go in other State·s- there only 40 beds were occupied. " It is extremely unlikely that the Gov­ ernment of South Australia will agree to llr. Jones: Forty-three. the Commonwealth proposal that there Mr. AIKENS: Whereas the exact reverse· should be compulsory examination of all is the case. The Minister says there are 43 South Australian people.'' beds in occupation; very well-I have it If that implies that it is the desire of the straig-ht from the horse's mouth, no t from the Commonwealth Government to make testing ' 'Courier-Mail.'' There are three extra beds by X-ray or skin tests compulsory, I should on the veranda of the male ward, and No. 4 like the Minister to tell us. The article I -the female ward-is nearly full, and will have just quoted would suggest that the be tilled in a couple of days. Although the Commonwealth Government desire to make information conveyed to the House by the testing by one or other method compulsory Minister was not accurate, I agree with him and I ask the Minister to let us know whether that there is a disinclination among T.B. that is so. patients to go from their own home-towns to receive treatment for tuberculosis. Mr.. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (5.43 Mr. Jones: The people would prefer to p.m.) : I think we should all be very grateful remain in Brisbane. to the hon. member for Enoggera for clearing up that point. I know that the statement Mr. AIKENS: Brisbane is not Queens­ by Dr. Ryan and the resolution of the Bris­ land, although the Labour Party apparently bane City Council have created a scare in thinks it is. The patients have a disinclina­ the minds of the people. It has created the tion to go :from their own home-towns, and 660 Tuberculosis Agreement Bill. [.ASSEMBLY.] Tuberculosis Agreement Bill.

that is why I commend the Government for months ago when they were having difficulty their blue-print-that is usually as far as about nurses' quarters. .As there were not we get in the North-for the various annexes many patients in the institution-! think to the hospitals throughout the State in which about 40 at that time-! suggested that a T.B. patients will be treated. part of the building be used for nurses' quar­ ters in order to give them good accommoda­ I impress on the Government that unless tion. there is · early diagnosis these annexes to hospitals throughout the State will . be ~Ir. Pie: What is the reason for there virtually converted into hospices for the dymg. not being many patients~ If they are to be like many of our T.B. sana· toriums at present, many patients will not . go Mr . .JONES: .A reluctance on the part into them until it is too late for anythmg of pat1ents to go there. I have discussed to be done for them. The Minister, as the this with Dr. Wunderley of the Oommon­ Minister in charge of the Department of wealt~ Health Services and Dr. Fryberg, and Health in this State, knows that doctors do that 1s one reason why we have decided to not like to see their hospital accommodatiol'l build annexes to the Townsville and Cairns taken up with patients for whom they can hospitals. do nothing. Doctors and nurses like to get patients into hospital while there is still ~Ir. Aikens: Is there not also a shortage some chance of effecting a cure. Unless there of staff at W estwood ~ is mass diagnosis and we can instil into the people the need for early diagnosis and early ~Ir. JONES: Yes. In order to get staff treatment, I repeat that Westwood Sana­ for Westwood the Rockhampton hospital torium and the other sanatoriums and annexes authorities have made special facilities avail­ to hospitals that may be erected in Queens­ able at Y eppoon, so that nurses can go there land for the treatment of T.B. will become, after having been at Westwood for a certain shortly after their erection in many cases, time. If we had sufficient patients prepared hospices for the dying. to go to W estwood, and if we could staff it, we could accommodate 90 there. I agree with the Minister that as far as possible patients should be tre:1-ted in, or as The hon. member for Mt1ndingburra spoke near as is po&sible, to their own home-towns about the blue-print stage of the annexes for or places of residence. I also stresg the urgent North Queensland and said that North need for educating the people to the need of Queensland could expect nothing more than early diagnosis and early treatment. blue-prints. That is hardly fair when we know that within a month or two a new hospital costing in the vicinity of £750,000, Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­ Secretary for Health and Home .Affairs) with the nurses' quarters, will be opened at ( 5.49 p.m.) : I was pleased to hear the Townsville. The hon. member lives at Towns­ remarks of the hon. member for Enoggera in ville and he will agree that it is one of the connection with statements made by Dr. best hospitals in .Australia, which proves that Ryan at the Brisbane City Council the other the Government have not been lax in pro­ day. I had intended making reference to viding hospital facilities there. It has taken them but the hon. member covered most of some time to provide them, but they are the points. He quoted from an article of there now. which I have a copy. The hon. member for Enoggera referred to .As to the matters mentioned by the hon. mass X-rays. We are making the same member for Mundingburra, particularly those approach here as is being made in New South in connection with my statement about West­ Wales, South .Australia, and, I understand, wood I am pretty sure that if he looks up Victoria. We are taking power by regulation '' Ha~sard'' he will find I said there were 43 to introduce compulsory X-raying if the need patients in the Westwood Sanatorium and it should arise. We shall have power to X-ray could accommodate 90 patients. The position compulsorily any individual or group of is that there is accommodation at Westwood people that might be suggested by our for 90 patients. At the moment we have 43. Director-General of Health and Medical Ser­ vices. If we could obtain the equipment­ There has been great difficulty in per· and it will be necessary to obtain possibly suading patients to go to the Westwood hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth of Sanatorium. It is over 30 miles from Rock­ equipment to carry out the campaign-and hampton, and there has been a great deal of we immediately started mass X-raying in reluctance on the part of people to go to West­ Queensland, we know very well that w;e wood. Westwood is a sanatorium, not a place possibly should not be able to accommodate where we take people to die. When we take the patients. It is for that reason that them there, they at least have a reasonable we believe the first approach should be chance of recovery. It is a very fine institu­ to take power to introduce compulsory tion and I suggest that any hon. member who X-raying but to go about it in a common­ has not seen it should take the opportunity sense way. of visiting the sanatoriUJ;n. He will be sur­ Schedule, as read, agreed to. prised at what is provided there. Preamble, as read, agreed to. What the hon. member said to the effect Bill reported with an amendment. that the nurses are occupying certain parts of the building is true. I was there 12 The House adjourned at 5.57 p.m.