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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 16th April 1996 at 1030 a.m.

Present: George Moore was fortunate in having a father who The President of Tynwald (the Hon Sir Charles was a great Manx patriot, a very able advocate, who Kerruish OBE LLD (hc) CP). In the Council: The Lord enjoyed a distinguished term of some 25 years as the Bishop (the Rt Rev Noel Debroy Jones), the Attorney- Attorney-General for the Isle of Man. Before the days of General (Mr J M Kerruish Q C), Mr B Barton, Mrs C M amplifiers, Ramsey Moore made the finest speech of Christian, Mr D F K Delaney, Hon E G Lowey, His Honour welcome to homecomers I have heard. I remember him A C Luft CBE, Dr E J Mann, Messrs J N Radcliffe and G standing on the roof of the old triangle building at the H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden, Clerk of the Council. Douglas pierhead, his voice with patriotic fervour ringing out over the throng. His great love of this Island and his In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon J C Cain) (Douglas legal abilities he undoubtedly passed on to his son the late • West); Mr A R Bell and Hon T R A Groves (Ramsey); Mr deemster. R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Hon George Moore was educated at the Park Road Secondary H Hannan (Peel); Mr W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); Mr S C School and at Rydal School. After serving his articles he Rodan (Garff); Hon D North (Middle); Mr P Karran, Hon was admitted to the Manx Bar in 1930 and he set up in R K Corkill and Mr J R Kniveton (Onchan); Hon B May and Mr E A Crowe (Douglas North); Messrs D C Cretney practice on his own account in a first floor office in Athol and A C Duggan (Douglas South); Messrs P W Kermode Street, over the bottling store of James Kissack. He was and R P Braidwood (Douglas East); Mr A F Downie always a strong-minded man with an independent outlook. (Douglas West); Hon J A Brown (Castletown); Hon D J When, some 16 years later, I set up on my own in a small Gelling (Malew and Santon); Hon M R Walker CBE LLD office in Athol Street he opined to me that this was the (hc), Mr J Corrin and Hon N Q Cringle (Rushen); with best beginning for an advocate because one did not have a Prof T StJ N Bates, Clerk of Tynwald. senior lawyer to go to for help or advice but had to form one's own opinion. In 1937 he joined the late Percy Kelly, later High Bailiff, The Lord Bishop took the prayers. and Henry Kelly, to form the firm of Kelly, Moore and Kelly. This was a successful practice. On the outbreak of SYMPATHY TO BEREAVED MEMBERS war both the partners joined the armed forces. George Moore joined the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve and became a squadron leader. After the war they both The President: Hon. members, this morning we extend continued the practice in an exceedingly successful manner. our sympathy to the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, However, in 1957 George Moore was appointed Attorney- • and the hon. member of the Council, the learned Attorney- General with, of course, an ex officio seat in the Legislative General, Mr Kerruish, both recently bereaved by the deaths of their respective fathers. Council. At that time the Attorney-General had a vote in the Council and in Tynwald. There is no doubt that George Moore enjoyed being involved in politics. He distinguished himself not only in TRIBUTE TO HIS HONOUR his duties as Attorney-General but also in the great political GEORGE EDGAR MOORE issues of the day. He displayed his father's great patriotic fervour and was in the forefront of advocating greater The President: We also mourn the passing of a independence for the Island. distinguished former member of the Court, Deemster In 1963 he was appointed Second Deemster and retained Moore, and I call upon the hon. member of the Council, his seat and his vote in the Legislative Council until 1st Arthur Luft, and the hon. Speaker of the House of Keys to November 1965 when the Second Deemster was removed pay tribute to his life and work. The hon. Mr Luft. from the Council under the 1965 Act. In 1967 His Honour read the laws in Manx from Mr Luft: Mr President, the former First Deemster and Tynwald Hill which had previously been read by Yn Clerk of the Rolls, His Honour George Edgar Moore, died Lhaihder. The practice of one of the deemsters reading the on 8th day of this month aged 88 years. laws in Manx has continued to the present day.

• Sympathy to Bereaved Members Tribute to His Honour George Edgar Moore T650 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

In 1969 Deemster Moore was appointed First Deemster Motorcycle Club and commentated at the TT races before and Clerk of the Rolls and in consequence he resumed his Manx Radio took over. After his retirement the Deemster seat in the Legislative Council. On my being appointed was the chairman of the Commercial Bank of Wales (IOM) Attorney-General in 1973 I had the pleasure of sitting next Limited and of Securicor (Isle of Man) Limited. to Deemster Moore in the Tynwald and besides learning a George Moore was a man of indefatigable courage and great deal I enjoyed his full support and his pithy remarks energy with a great devotion to justice. There used to be about what was going on, although he would occasionally included a prayer for judges in England which included set a quite difficult question requiring formal opinion and the words 'that Her Majesty's Judges may boldly, discreetly considerable research, for example 'What is the meaning and mercifully fulfil their duties.' In the case of George and extent of the term "stir", which at Tynwald at St John's Moore that prayer was surely answered. As to the man to is an offence?' whom I pay tribute today, the words of Pope might well The First Deemsters, when they sat in Tynwald, used to apply: wield considerable influence. In my view one of Deemster Moore's outstanding achievements was his chairing of the `Careless of censure, nor too fond of fame, Select Committee on the Common Market. This committee Still pleased to praise, yet not afraid to blame, negotiated the special relationship for the Isle of Man as Averse alike to flatter or offend, manifested in Protocol 3 of the Treaty of Accession of the Not free from faults, nor yet too vain to mend.' United Kingdom to the Treaty of Rome. I understand that as chairman of that committee he played a major role. I George enjoyed a most happy marriage to Joan for have myself no doubt that this special relationship has almost 60 years. She has most graciously supported him served and continues to serve the Island well. He was of throughout their marriage and her loving care must have course involved in many other important matters and been so helpful when the deemster was losing the vigour served on many committees. of his former years. I am sure the hon. members wish me, • His Honour delivered a paper in 1966 entitled 'The on their behalf, to tender heartfelt sympathy to Joan, to his Effect of the Act of 1765'. He was referring to the son Martin, his daughter Barbara, his grandchildren and Revestment Act. The paper is recorded in the Proceedings to his brother Gordon. May this strong-minded Manxman of the Isle of Man Natural History and Antiquarian Society, be long remembered. volume II, No. I. Near the end of the paper is an interesting comment in the light of the question whether the board The President: The hon. Mr Speaker. system was better than the present system. The Deemster says, 'Thus from the disaster of 1765 the Island has slowly, The Speaker: Mr President, in rising to fully support in nearly 200 years, got :- 1. Financial control of its own all the remarks that have been made by His Honour Arthur affairs - completely free from the United Kingdom Luft, I am sure that for some of the members of the Council, Treasury. 2. Castles, Tynwald Fair, and 3. Crown lands excepting yourself, Mr President, and indeed perhaps for and Common Lands. Very shortly, what of the future? At more of the Members of the House of Keys, there is the present, the government has two difficulties :- (a) The possibility that they did not know Deemster Moore Board system is dangerous financially - every Board wants personally. As has been said, the former First Deemster to spend and there is no direct concern as to where the and Clerk of the Rolls, His Honour George E Moore, was money is to come from. (b) A conflict can and does arise 88 when he died, having gained a lasting reputation and between an Executive Council full of schemes for spending having contributed, in my opinion, greatly to the Manx vast sums of Government money and a Finance Board who community. His professional background, which covered must ask whether the expenditure is justified, has it any a period in excess of 44 years, has been very ably covered hope of being economically profitable and can the Island by both His Honour the First Deemster and by His Honour afford it. For if spending both from income and from capital the member of the Council who has moved the tribute this borrowing is unchecked then the Finance Board is bound morning. to call for increased taxation, when the Island's greatest The First Deemster gave a résumé of Deemster Moore's attraction is low direct taxation, i.e. low income tax, no progress through his chosen profession in court last surtax and no death duties.' Thursday and although I was not able to be present at the In the community George Moore engaged in many memorial service at Trinity Church on the following day, I activities. He was, as his father had been, a notable understand that he paid a moving personal tribute in his supporter of Trinity Church and as secretary to the trustees address on that occasion. over many years he rendered services of great benefit to Deemster Moore could not have gained higher office that church. He was a badminton player for the Rosemount and his progress through the ranks, as it were, of Attorney- Church Badminton Club and became President of the Isle General, Second Deemster and finally First Deemster, at a of Man Badminton Association of which he remained a time of constitutional change was noticeable not only for patron to the end of his days. He was Chairman of the the contribution that he made to the Island's future Manx Blind Welfare Society for 21 years. He was relationship with what has become the European Union, Chairman of the Manx War Work Trust, county and this point has been very properly put and emphasised representative of the RAF Benevolent Association and a by His Honour this morning, but also perhaps a little member of the Manx Museum and National Trust. As a paradoxically for his opposition to any political change in keen motorcyclist he was a member of the Manx the voting powers of the then legal members of the Council.

Tribute to His Honour George Edgar Moore . TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T651

In my personal opinion, Deemster Moore played a full The Clerk: I lay before the Court: • part in his family's legal contribution to this Island which has, to my certain knowledge, spanned three generations. Coroners Act 1993 - This substantial contribution must be almost unique within Coroners Fees Order 1996. (SD No. 57/96) one family and it is also interesting to note that the family interest in the ongoing development of the Manx Museum Jury Act 1980 - and National Trust, of which he was a member between Jury Act 1980 (Amendment) Order. (SD No. 1970 and 1974, has been carried on by his son Martin who 147196) is currently chairman of the executive committee of that body. Town and Country Planning Acts 1934 to 1991 - I returned to the Island in, I think, either 1953 or 1954 Braddan (Ballamona Estate) Planning Scheme and Deemster Moore was appointed Attorney-General in Order 1996. (SD No. 181196) 1957. I can remember, as a junior chartered accountant, seeking his advice from time to time on what I then thought Medicines Act 1976 - were difficult problems associated with aspects of the Medicines Act 1976 (Amendment) Order 1996. government audit. He was always courteous but firm in (SD No. 137/96) giving either an opinion or advice and one soon learnt to master one's area of concern before attempting to make Merchant Shipping Registration Act 1991 - an appointment with him. Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) Mr President, the late Deemster Moore was as Manx as (Relevant Countries) Regulations 1996. (SD gorse and I have tried to illustrate this aspect of his life. No. 173/96) Although never an MHK, he was, as has been said, a proud • contributor to Manx political life through both his Road Traffic Act 1985 - membership of Tynwald and of the associated committees Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) and other organisations to which he belonged. I am honoured and yet saddened to associate the House of Keys (Amendment) (No. 1) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 157196) with the comments of His Honour this morning and to endorse the expressions of sympathy to his widow Joan, Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) his children Barbara and Martin, his grandchildren and (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1996. (SD No. his brother. 158/96)

The President: Hon. members, let us stand in silent Customs and Excise Act 1993 - tribute to the memory of a distinguished colleague. Export of Goods (Control) (Amendment No. 2) Order 1995 (Application) Order 1996. (SD No. The Court stood in silence. 83/96)

The President: Thank you, hon. members. Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 - Investment Business (Exemption) (Group Pension Schemes) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 142196)

WELCOME TO VISITORS Social Security Act 1982 - Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 2) The President: Before turning to the business set out Order 1996. (SD No. 138/96) on the order paper I would like to extend a welcome to Mr • and Mrs Ogilvy from the administration of the most Pension Schemes Act 1995 - northern legislature of the Commonwealth, that of the Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) Order Northwest Territories of Canada. We hope you enjoy your 1996. (SD No. 139/96) stay in our Island and we would be grateful if you would convey the good wishes of Tynwald to the Hon. Jeannie Gaming (Amendment) Act 1984 - Marie-Jewell, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly, and Controlled Machines (Amendment) Regulations her colleagues on your return to the Yukon. 1996. (SD No. 56/96) Now, hon. members, as we have the children of Andreas School with us this morning, I am sure they will be Petitions for confirmation of Byelaws - interested to know that we have already had a visit to the Court by an aboriginal scholar, Terry Platt, from Australia Ramsey Housing Byelaws 1995. this morning. Diseases of Animals (Prevention) Acts 1948 to 1975 - Animals (Prohibition of Importation) (Derogation) Order 1996. (SD No. 161196) PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT Currency Act 1992 - The President: Now turning to the business of the day, Currency Act (70th Birthday of Her Majesty the I call upon the learned Clerk to lay papers. Queen Crown) Order 1996. (SD No. 145196)

Welcome to Visitors • Papers Laid Before the Court T652 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

Burials Act 1986 - The President: Thank you. Burial Grounds (Maximum Rate) Order 1996. (SD No. 119/96) LONG-TERM NURSING CARE — COSTS Medicines Act 1975 - — QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE Medicines (Medicated Animal Feeding Stuffs) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 93/96) The President: Turning now to the question paper I Medicines (Veterinary Drugs) (Pharmacy and call upon the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr Downie, Merchants' List) Order 1996. (SD No. 91196) to ask the question standing in his name. Medicines (Veterinary Drugs) (Prescription Only) Order 1996. (SD No. 90/96) Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Medicines (Veterinary Drugs) (General Sale List) ask the Chief Minister: Order 1996. (SD No. 89/96) Medicines (Prescription Only) Order 1996. (SD No. (1) Is the government aware of the concern of many 88/96) individuals that the cost of their long-term nursing Medicines (General Sale List) Order 1996. (SD No. care may absorb their savings and other assets; and 87/96) (2) is the government giving consideration to schemes Planning Application 95/1261 : Poortown Quarry, which will meet some of the costs of such long-term Poortown Road, German - nursing care, for those who have made private Extension of existing quarry in easterly direction insurance arrangements to meet a proportion of for the extraction of road stone material - decision such costs? by the Department of Local Government and the Environment. The President: The Chief Minister to reply.

Immigration - Mr Walker: Mr President, I was a little surprised to Statement of Change in Immigration Rules. (SD No. see this question in view of the statements that have been 146/96) made in Tynwald in recent months. In November there was a debate on residential care for Reports and Accounts - senior citizens and it was reported to the Court at that time Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1995. that the Department of Health and Social Security had been Report of the Police Complaints Commissioner for asked by the Council of Ministers to examine the issue of the year 1995. persons requiring residential nursing care who at the time Accounts and Financial Information for the year of requiring such care were still the owners of property. ended 31st March 1995 additional to the published The terms of the resolution adopted by the Court at the Government Accounts and the Report of the Public conclusion of the debate requested the department to Auditors on the Accounts of Local Authorities for continue to examine, as requested by the Council of the year ended 31st March 1995. Ministers, the options and costings for the long-term support of those requiring residential and nursing home European Communities - care. And last month, as part of the Budget, the Treasury European Communities instruments circulated Minister announced a change in the capital rules applying during February 1996. (GC No. 14/96) in the determination of supplementary benefit claims from persons in nursing and residential homes. The effect of the change was to increase by one third, to £20,000, the BRADDAN (BALLAMONA ESTATE) upper limit of capital assets beyond which no entitlement PLANNING SCHEME ORDER 1996 to supplementary benefit can arise. This limit is — MOTION WITHDRAWN significantly more generous than the equivalent limit in the United Kingdom and the Treasury Minister made it The President: I have to inform hon. members that clear that this increase was something quite separate from item 10 on the order paper, the Braddan (Ballamona Estate) the ongoing DHSS examination of options for the long- Planning Scheme Order 1996, will not be moved. term support of those requiring residential and nursing care. The particular change announced in the Budget was set out in the Supplementary Benefit (Resources) BILLS FOR SIGNATURE (Amendment) Regulations which were moved by the Minister for Health and Social Security and in proposing The President: We have six Bills for signature, hon. the adoption of the regulations the minister said, 'I am members, and if you are agreeable we will continue our happy to confirm that these improvements in the capital business while they are being signed. Is that agreed? limits are without prejudice to whatever may emerge from the department's final report on the examination of the Members: Agreed. options and costings for the long-term support of persons

Braddan (Ballamona Estate) Planning Scheme Order 1996 — Motion Withdrawn Bills for Signature Long-Term Nursing Care — Costs — Question by Mr Downie TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T653

who require residential and nursing home care about which Mr Walker: I am sure, Mr President, these are all I will be making a statement later at this sitting.' Clearly relevant facts that will be taken into account and indeed I • this was a reference to the ongoing study which had been know the minister and myself will go through Hansard, mentioned in the debate in November. following its production, to try and identify the concerns In addition to what was said in the Budget but also at that members have to make sure that they are covered by last month's Tynwald the minister made a statement to the department. Tynwald specifically on long-term support for those in nursing and residential homes. That statement reported on Mr Coffin: Mr President, would the Chief Minister the progress being made in the inquiry which the Council agree that the raising of the capital rules to the £20,000 of Ministers had called for and which was endorsed by makes no difference whatsoever to the principle and the Tynwald last November and included in particular an problem that people are faced with today, no difference indication that it was unlikely that a report could be made whatsoever to the principle, it does not help in any shape available for consideration much before next summer. The or form, and furthermore why have we got to wait, why study being undertaken by the Department of Health and can he not give a definite response to the time when we Social Security on this subject is wide-ranging and will can have some ideas of what the DHSS is thinking on this cover all the options. matter? In the light of all the statements made by the ministers over recent months the answer to both parts of the question Mr Walker: The minister made it clear, the Minister is yes. of the DHSS that is, Mr President, in his statement that a report was unlikely before the summer. It is a complicated Mr Downie: A supplementary, Mr President. I would issue and I would disagree with my hon. colleague where like to ask the Chief Minister, is the government currently he says that the matter of supplementary benefit and the examining partial asset protection schemes or income tax levels at which it comes into play and the amount of assets • relief schemes specifically designed to deal with the elderly that a person is allowed to keep, which will not be T-rated who are providing insurance for care in their old age and safeguard their homes or savings? further, I think, at £12,500, is of some importance to those people that fall within that bracket and I do not think we should diminish that situation. Mr Walker: Mr President, the Council of Ministers have placed this responsibility fairly and squarely with the DHSS. They are obviously aware of the situation as it is developing in the United Kingdom and other places. This DOUGLAS LOCAL TOWN PLAN REVISION is a complicated subject and what the hon. member has ISSUES AND OPTIONS — DOUGLAS referred to will take part in those considerations. CORPORATION CONSIDERATIONS — QUESTION BY MR BRAIDWOOD Mr Downie: A supplementary, Mr President. Following a recent announcement by the United Kingdom Prime The President: Question 2, the hon. member for Minister, is the Chief Minister aware that a Bill is shortly Douglas East, Mr Braidwood. to be introduced into the House of Commons and is intended to provide a more fair and equitable package for Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the those who have assets but unfortunately can no longer be Minister for Local Government and the Environment: cared for at home? As Douglas Corporation has submitted its initial Mr Walker: I am aware of the deliberations that have considerations of the Douglas Local Town Plan Revision been taking place, Mr President, as I say, in the United Issues and Options, will you give an approximate date for • Kingdom and other places, about a person's assets which the planning inquiry and submission to this hon. Court? may or may not include their own domestic property, which is one of the difficult situations that is recognised by hon. The President: The Minister for Local Government and members of this Court and elsewhere. I am not aware of the Environment to reply. the terms of the Bill that has been announced to be introduced and the department, I am sure, await with Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. The document interest that Bill. relating to the Douglas town plan, to begin the process of evaluation, was called 'Issues and Options'. It was Mr Delaney: Bearing in mind the answer given by the circulated to the Douglas Borough Council, the relevant Chief Minister and where the minister has undertaken to elected members for Douglas and departments of review the situation, will the Chief Minister indicate government in order to seek their initial views and their whether in these options which will be looked at will be responses have now been received. In the light of those the current situation that has occurred where persons on views a revised document is now in preparation and will pensions and supplementary benefit have had their benefit be circulated for public comment. This document will be reduced because of the increase in their pension, therefore based on considering the policy implications in relation to only giving them an increase for the year of a minimum of the issues which have been identified and the options which 1 per cent rather than the cost of inflation and cost of living are seen to be available. It is hoped this revision would be occurring in this Island? Will he give me that undertaking? available by the end of April this year.

• Douglas Local Town Plan Revision Issues and Options — Douglas Corporation Considerations — Question by Mr Braidwood T654 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

It is felt that a six-week period would required for where and how and in what way. So I do not see, much as responses to that and that a further four weeks would I understand the idea, that that in fact will have anything probably then be necessary, at least, to analyse those other than the opposite effect of what is intended. responses that come in. This would then enable a draft written statement and order to be prepared and issued for Mr Delaney: Mr President, the minister will be aware further consultation with all the interested parties about that on 5th December, in a series of questions asked by me the beginning of July of this year. Dependent upon the in the Legislative Council, I was given an undertaking that outcome of that consultation it is intended, we hope, to each application in relation to planning would be treated hold a public inquiry towards the autumn, in either on its own merits. Was I expected at that time, and the September or October of this year. However, I am sure hotels expected, to accept that that meant that a change of hon. members will understand that in view of the use could be allowed by the department for office uncertainty as to the type of reaction that the document accommodation or other purpose other than residential and might lead to and the number of responses, that has to be hotel, or was it just given as the impression that they were at this stage a hope rather than a certainty. Thank you, Mr prepared to talk about the issue of change? President. Mr Groves: Mr President, I was asked whether I could Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I thank the minister for in effect give guarantees as to how planning applications his reply but I am a little bit perplexed because it seems from hoteliers will be considered and the answer I gave like déjà vu. At the May sitting of this hon. Court last year was no. I cannot and it would be quite improper for me to the minister indicated the public inquiry would be in say so or even do so. The hon. member of the Council, September. He is now talking about this September, when advised in December by my hon. colleague Mr Waft October, one year behind schedule: a vital loss of time that each application would be treated on its merits, was considering some hoteliers are facing the worst summer advised correctly, they are, but that does not mean a season in their history. Would the minister give an guarantee of success for what is applied for. They will be assurance that hotels which are no longer viable in terms treated on their merits. That is all, I am afraid, I can advise. of use for tourism, on submitting an application for change of use to any reasonable purpose, will be judged on its Mr Kermode: Can I ask the minister then, is he saying merits and not refused out of hand because it does not that any minister that comes before this hon. Court, when conform with the 1989 Douglas town plan? moving a town centre plan or any other town centre plan, if he gives a guarantee and tells us that each case will be Mr Groves: No, Mr President, I can give no assurance judged on its merits, it no longer applies and can I also ask as to what the Planning Committee or the planners in my him, would he not consider that it would be far better department do at all. That is totally outwith my allowing change of use for some of these hotels which are responsibility which is to simply, at the end of the day, now derelict properties on our promenade than leaving remain as the final person to whom a planning appeal might them in the condition in which it affects other people's come. businesses within the area? I would like to point out that, much as the plight and the points raised by the hoteliers in certain parts of Douglas Mr Groves: Mr President, that is precisely why we are are understood, the town plan incorporates the whole of considering the issue of the Douglas Town Plan. Issues Douglas. There are so many issues other than just former are being identified, options are being put forward, the hotels or hotels that seek a change of use - traffic, MHKs for Douglas, the Douglas Corporation and the residential, commercial: a huge range of issues for the public are being consulted upon them and asked for their major capital town of this Island to be considered. I am views. That is the process which is now under way. So the sorry, it cannot be done, in short, in five minutes. question the hon. member asks about that - that is why we have the plan now being considered. But please be under Mr Braidwood: Mr President, another supplementary. no illusions. The Minister for the Department of Local As the minister cannot give a clear indication, would he Government and the Environment, when moving plans, consider extending the Douglas 2000 area order which orders or anything else can never give any guarantees about introduces the new planning initiative to central Douglas planning. That is down to the Planning Committee and the and the Queen's Prom? planning policies that that committee works to.

Mr Groves: The Douglas 2000 order, Mr President, as Mr Kermode: We have the all-seeing power. I recall, was a specific one introducing fast-track planning also accompanied by financial incentives for the approval Mr Delaney: The minister will be aware that in of the Treasury and this hon. Court in terms of getting questions I asked in relation to the delays, after being given downtown redevelopment under way of a major nature. assurances when the Douglas town plan would be in modus To increase the scope of that order, which itself in financial operandi, the excuse that was given, probably correctly, incentive terms shortly comes to an end, to incorporate was because of the commitment of the department on the the whole of the town will simply exacerbate the very waste disposal problems and other problems. Bearing in problems that an out-of-date plan would lead to. It will mind that none of these problems has been resolved, with not get down to the basic issues of what should be done the recent rejection of Stoney Mountain, what undertaking

Douglas Local Town Plan Revision Issues and Options — Douglas Corporation Considerations — Question by Mr Braidwood TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T655

can the minister now give that in future the Douglas town of the current BSE crisis. plan will not be delayed for the same reasons given to me, My chief executive and chief veterinary officer were • that there is too much work in the department? both in London to meet MAFF officers on Thursday 21st March and they were then fully briefed on the situation. Mr Groves: I refer the hon. member to the answer I This was the day after the announcements in the UK. gave at the beginning to the first question, Mr President. Upon his return the chief executive was with the Chief Minister and myself at the press conference on Friday Mr Delaney: No undertaking! morning. At 1.30 on that day we gave a briefing to members of Tynwald on the Animal Health Bill when the BSE Mr Cretney: Mr President, could I ask the minister, is situation was covered in detail. At 3 p.m. that day we had he aware that the concerns which are being currently a meeting with the representatives of the Manx National expressed by hoteliers and others with regard to flexibility Farmers' Union, the Fatstock Marketing Association and of the use of premises on the promenade and associated the Milk Marketing Association. environs were being expressed by the same persons at the On Monday 25th March Mr Warren assisted me in time of the Douglas Town Plan in 1989 and is he aware briefing the Council of Ministers in the morning and in who the minister was who is the author of the current plan? the afternoon we had a further meeting with the farmers' (Laughter) joint working party. During the remainder of that week the chief executive was present for the emergency Tynwald Mr Groves: Well, I was aware of that, Mr President, debate and subsequently accompanied me at the first of and I thank the hon. member for reminding me and this three meetings of the Council of Ministers sub-committee hon. Court. and two further meetings of the farmers' working party. When Mr Warren went on leave the department's basic • Mr Delaney: A supplementary, Mr President. approach to the BSE situation was substantially in place. (Laughter) Is the minister aware that the past minister, During Mr Warren's absence the BSE situation within my namely myself, when putting forward the Douglas town department has been handled by a team comprising the plan, was given the present situation by the then administrator and finance officer, the chief agriculture Department of Tourism who insisted that Douglas adviser, the chief veterinary officer and veterinary officers promenade should only be used for tourist accommodation - all well qualified, competent and experienced officers. or residential? Rightly or wrongly, I detect within this question implied criticism of both my chief executive and myself and if so, Mr Groves: I am very grateful, Mr President, for the it is a criticism I totally refute. Mr Warren conferred with clear guidelines that I have been given and left by my me before finally deciding to proceed with his leave and I predecessor in this matter. confirmed that this heavily loaded officer and his family should have their break as planned. (Several members: Mr Delaney: Thank you. Hear, hear.) I was supported in this decision by the Chief Secretary who is head of the Civil Service. Coming to the second part of the question, I do not know BSE CRISIS — DAFF CHIEF EXECUTIVE whether it is intended to have any relevance to the first — QUESTION BY MR CANNAN part but I can confirm that the salary attached to the post of chief executive of my department is fixed at grade 7 The President: Question 3, the hon. member for plus 5 per cent of the scale maximum. This relates to £35,046. • Michael. I can assure the Court that if I had thought that the presence of this officer during the eight days in question I beg to ask the Minister for Agriculture, Mr Cannan: that he took leave would have had a major impact on the Fisheries and Forestry: BSE crisis I might have reached a different conclusion, but that was clearly not going to be the case. Thank you, (1) Is it the case that the chief executive of your Eaghtyrane. department took two weeks' holiday in the middle of a major crisis in the agriculture industry; and The President: We move on, hon. members, to question 4 and I call upon the hon. member for - Sorry, have you a (2) what is his annual salary? further question, sir, on this point?

The President: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries Mr Corrin: Yes, Mr President. Would the hon. Minister and Forestry to reply. for Agriculture agree with my assessment, having worked closely with the chief executive, Mr Tony Warren, for four Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Dealing with years, that Mr Warren's standing within the community as the first part of the question, I can confirm that my chief a private citizen and professionally within the Civil Service executive was on annual leave during the first two-week is a record of the highest integrity, he is courteous at all period of this month. He and his family were committed times and dedicated to the important appointment that he to their holiday arrangements well ahead of the breaking holds?

BSE Crisis — DAFF Chief Executive — Question by Mr Cannan T656 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

Furthermore, would the minister agree that civil servants approved at last month's sitting. In 7.1(g) it does say, 'a di in general are entitled to reasonable terms of employment? postgraduate law course; (the student should hold at least w And lastly, is it not a fact that within the Department of a second-class honours degree and have been offered Agriculture, the finance officer, Mr Will Fargher, a very articles with an Isle of Man advocate).' So the answer to senior, experienced officer, covers Mr Warren's the first part of the question is yes. And again with reference responsibilities when Mr Warren is on authorised leave? to section 7 in the Student Awards Scheme, there is no other specific reference to undertake professional training Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear. on the Island. So the answer to the second part of the question is there is none. Mrs Hannan: I can confirm that is the case, Eaghtyrane. Now, the third part of the question - the restriction Also, since receiving notice of this question I have spoken indicated in the scheme was to help and support those Ise to members of the farmers' joint working party and in each of Man-supported law graduates who, after their case the representatives indicated that they had no problem postgraduate training, would be returning to the Island to with Mr Warren's absence and full confidence in the work under definite articles with Manx law firms. They capacity of my department's team to handle the situation. might otherwise have been returning to the Island for I am also very grateful to my team and I think it is a unemployment. responsibility of any chief executive to see that his department works well when he is not there and I think Mr Cannan: Will the minister confirm that there is a that is the very success of Mr Warren in the Department of certain amount of discretion in this regulation in that if the Agriculture. department consider in the circumstances that it is appropriate for the student specialising in certain aspects Mr Corrin: Hear, hear. of law to have their postgraduate tuition fees paid? • Mr Cringle: The answer to that is, yes, it is POSTGRADUATE LAW COURSES discretionary, and I would point out to the hon. member — DISCRETIONARY AWARDS — and to the hon. Court that section 7 is actually headed QUESTION BY MR RODAN `Discretionary grants' and the wording used, which I quoted from 7(g), the word is 'should' and not 'must'. The President: Question 4, the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan. Mr Rodan: Mr President, could the minister inform the Court why exactly does the scheme single out law from Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to other vocations when deciding on discretionary awards, ask the Minister for Education: making it the only vocation which ties grant funding to a commitment to practise in the Isle of Man? What (a) Is it the case that under the StudentAwards Scheme differentiates a law vocational course from other courses 1996 discretionary awards to Manx students of a vocational nature? pursuing postgraduate law courses are conditional on their having been offered articles with an Isle of Mr Cringle: My understanding is that this is a joint Man advocate; decision of the Law Society and the Department of Education who have considered this over a period of time (b) what other postgraduate vocational courses are and have considered that it was good that there was secure employment. And can I point out to this hon. Court that made conditional on entering into a commitment to out of the applications received in 1993-94 there were 13. undertake professional training on the Isle of Man; • Twelve of them were supported. In 1994-95 there were 15 and applications, 10 of which were supported and in 1995-96 again we had a further 10 supported. So it is a regular (c) to whose advantage is the denial of financial ongoing pattern. assistance to Manx law graduates wishing to acquire the experience of legal practice in another Mr Downie: Would the minister not agree that currently jurisdiction before entering into a commitment to it is very, very difficult to get articles with an Isle of Man undertake articles with a view to qualifying as a advocate because lots of the places have been taken up Manx advocate? and is it not a fact that as it is government policy to diversify the Manx economy, there may be young Manx university The President: The Minister for Education to reply. graduates and students who are wishing to get specialist knowledge of shipping, insurance and finance and would Mr Cringle: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the he give this Court an undertaking that every application hon. member for Garff for his question and would confirm will be treated on its own merit? that under the Student Awards Scheme 1996 which we approved in this hon. Court at last month's sitting the Mr Cringle: Yes, sir, I take the point that articles are postgraduate law courses are discretionary and that is difficult to obtain but in my answer previously to the earlier clearly stated in paragraph 7 of the scheme which we supplementary I was giving an indication, as I thought, Postgraduate Law Courses — Discretionary Awards — Question by Mr Rodan • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T657

that in fact there have been 13, 10 and 10 so there is in the Mr Cringle: Yes, sir, there has been an element of lo last pattern of years a regular number having been taken rationing. I accept there is an element of rationing in on in the full articles by Isle of Man law firms. relation to those articled with Isle of Man law firms. No I would also confirm to the hon. member who has just question about that. There have been exceptions when it asked the question relating, for example, to shipping and comes forward to those applying for specialists. There is finance that in the past the discretion has been used in discretion there. I think if a student comes forward and we relation to people who wished to seek specific shipping know exactly what they are doing, if they are going to be experience. That discretion is within the scheme which articled or devilled to somebody else, I think that would this Court supported and I was pleased that I got the Court's be taken into consideration in the discretion, but again I support last month and, as I pointed out to the hon. member would reiterate that out of the applicants who have sought for Michael, the discretion is there and the wording in the assistance over the last three-year period the practice is scheme is 'should' and the wording is not 'must'. So if a that by far the greatest majority of them have received full student comes forward who wishes to specialise in shipping support. or some other thing which would be off the Island and not necessarily have articles with a Manx law firm, that would Mr Cannan: Whilst acknowledging with appreciation certainly be given the blessing of the department. that the department has in the past used its discretion and allowed a Manx student to study maritime law, could I ask Mr Rodan: I thank the minister for indicating the finally for an undertaking from the minister that in the elements of discretion which do exist within the scheme discretion that he uses for Manx students who wish to but would he agree that legal practice in the Isle of Man specialise in aspects of law, bearing in mind the by statute is not exclusively limited to Manx advocates complexities of the financial services industry that we have, 40 and is there therefore not an element of double standards he will use his discretion with more flexibility in the future operating when people who have been educated at the than he has in the past? Not him, sir, but the department. expense of another education authority, have practised in the English or Scottish legal systems, are currently Mr Cringle: Yes, sir. I think I have on a number of regularly recruited to private and public positions at high occasions this morning given the indication that the scheme levels in the Isle of Man and yet Manx law graduates which was approved by this hon. Court last month states wishing to commence their careers in those same Scottish for law students that it is discretionary. I have made it quite or English legal jurisdictions, getting experience and plain that the word within that scheme is 'should' and not that they 'must' have articles with the Manx Law Society expertise over there perhaps before bringing that back to and if that is not as good a nod that there will be discretion the Isle of Man, are discouraged from doing so under the used in a disretionary scheme, I do not know what answer terms of the Student Awards Scheme? I can give. Mr Cringle: No, sir, I do not accept the hon. member's Mr Cannan: Will the minister give me a wink as well? comment that they are discouraged from doing so. I am Thank you very much. certainly aware of legal practitioners on the Isle of Man and certainly aware of the difference there and I think that The President: Hon. members, that concludes our can very easily be covered within the scheme by discretion. perusal of the question paper. But I do not want this hon. Court to feel that the Isle of Man is unique in refusing to give law graduates support because in fact the reverse is the case. We are generous with law graduate support and as far as Scotland goes, RECYCLING — EVALUATION BY DLGE • which the hon. member has just referred to, there they are — MOTION LOST classed as entrants and first they must follow a one-year full-time postgraduate course at a Scottish university The President: We now turn to item 3 on the order leading to a diploma and then they serve a period of salaried paper and I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr training of 12 to 21 months in a solicitor's office during Corrin. which time they may experience all work undertaken by solicitors, and the final stage consists of a nine-month Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg to move: period of pupilage known as 'devilling' in Scotland, spent with a member of the Scottish Bar approved by the dean That the Department of Local Government and the of the faculty. Not everybody gets support and in those Environment evaluate recycling as an alternative to cases they equally serve some form of article. incineration for waste disposal and report.

Dr Mann: Mr President, would the minister not agree It is now some years since Tynwald Court first that by operating a system that is in conjunction with the confirmed a strategy for the future disposal of the Island's Law Society he is involuntarily setting up a rationing refuse. Based upon information known to members system of intake and that unfortunately this applies to those Tynwald Court has, from time to time, reconfirmed that who cannot afford the full fees? Those who can can still original decision. The strategy, as I understand it, is be trained. basically one of pursuing three functions: firstly, • Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost T658 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 implementing practical initiatives in public education in processing, natural processing locally of appropriate terms of attitude to the unnecessary generation of refuse materials and thereon back to the good old landfill. • in the first place, the valuable contribution that many hands, The body of opinion to which I have referred is, I am meaning the public in general, can make through its own sure, well known to all hon. members. Certainly it is efforts; secondly, it is intended that after certain items spearheaded by the Friends of the Earth but many other which are readily recyclable have been recycled, then our persons on this Island hold views and concerns formally refuse will be disposed of via incineration; and thirdly, of put forward by the Friends of the Earth. course, landfill. That is basically the proposed method of There is no one ultimate solution to the disposal of disposal. Intertwined into that strategy every effort would rubbish. In days gone by the greater part of the composition be made to recover something of value, however that value of waste contained certain elements derived from nature may be expressed. Recovery may be money in payment and when discarded were reasonably safe to return to the for recovering something which is in demand and of value earth or the more dangerous substances were considerably to a third person. Value may be heat through a burning diluted through mixing with vast tonnages of household process and how that heat source is used; direct heating or ashes and cinders. electrical generation is another matter. As the use of coal as a source for household heating has I have on two occasions visited the Jersey incineration diminished, together with the resultant ash, the content of complex. I have made a video of the Jersey incineration the household rubbish bin has been replaced with other plant and I witnessed a clean and well-managed plant. I commodities, some of which are much more dangerous understand that Jersey has been in the incineration business and difficult to dispose of. Whilst the widespread use of since 1957 and they would be the first to admit that they various forms of chlorine-based plastics has been of have had their setbacks. However, it is only now that they immense benefit to modern-day living, the disposal of this are addressing the flue, the chimney emission issue. plastic material in whatever form has not received the same It may well be that incineration is our only route. My technological attention that it warrants, probably because • overall worry, my extreme concern, is the possibility that there was no financial return at the end of costly research. notwithstanding the most modern technologies employed, The easy option - out of sight, out of mind - has been to no person, no expert of whatever standing will stand up burn the plastics. Now, however, many people question and demonstrate beyond doubt that no risk is held over the the wisdom of incineration. Certainly burning reduces the heads of the population through the emissions of dioxins volume but does incineration resolve the problem or does and associated poison substances generated through the it merely change the appearance of the commodity from burning process. X to Y and make it an even more dangerous, concentrated The problems of carriage of concentrated, potentially product - a mixture of poisons or even the creation of new dangerous by-products and disposal of the same can, I am poisons through the mixing of certain substances? sure, be overcome and the safe burial of this engineered. Added to that scenario we have the question of the However, securing public acceptance of siting and the deep chimney flue emissions. Notwithstanding the effectiveness concern of those who are not satisfied or convinced that of modern technology, no-one has yet guaranteed that the the safety of the environment is assured, the safety of the flue emissions will not or cannot in the short or longer community, the safety of our children, if the damage only term affect human or animal life near to or perhaps shows up in the long term, is another matter. Securing hundreds of miles from an incinerator. Plastics are but only public acceptance, for the reasons I have just given, has one part of the composition of today's rubbish. not yet proved possible and shows little sign of being taken I attended, as indeed did a number of other members, on board. the Loch Promenade Church meeting a few weeks ago Many members of the public have taken part in this organised by the Friends of the Earth. The addresses by refuse debate, searching for the best overall solution. As guest speakers and question session afterwards were most • the years have advanced since the original Tynwald interesting. At the conclusion of that meeting a motion was decision new technology has been introduced to handle proposed and carried basically requesting the Government this increasing worldwide problem of refuse disposal. of this Island to reconsider the present strategy in view of One method of disposal, recycling, has been under the latest information tendered and views expressed. My scrutiny by many residents of this Island. Recycling is not motion reflects the conclusions at that public meeting a new idea. The Department of Local Government and the which in essence summarised the outcome of the latest Environment has been organising collections of certain greater debate which has taken place since the Foxdale items for a number of years and shipping the commodities proposals were launched. I am sure that the views of to the UK for recycling. However, this activity is peripheral members of this hon. Court will be noted with interest at best to the current policy of landfill. today. As government strives to find a method or methods of I have had time to have a quick read and hon. members reducing the tonnage going to landfill a body of opinion will have had no more time either to have a look at a suggests that rather than investing in an incineration plant submission on our desks this morning from the Friends of for the main bulk of refuse, we should evaluate the the Earth where they summarise their views. It is interesting possibilities and advances made in technology in recycling, but I would say that the view they are putting forward is meaning investing in technology, in machinery, in plant to based upon this long debate, continuous debate that has sort into various streams compatible materials for disposal, been going on since Tynwald Court made its original disposal meaning exporting certain commodities for decision, and the confirmation that has taken place, as I Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T659

said, based upon the knowledge available to members after understand the compatibility has been reduced where years have gone by. plastics now can be grouped in to three lots and they can • The applications for planning permissions and so on melted down, whatever you do with plastics, for recycling have raised the awareness of the problem of disposal of and in the future that will come down to even a lesser rubbish. It is everyone's problem, no-one can get away number than three. So things are moving, and we should from that, but the subject has had great publicity on this be looking and taking on board these changes before Island and I think many more people now are aware of the making this commitment. consequences if we go down the wrong route. If the Friends The purpose of asking Tynwald Court to look at this of the Earth make their case, if one carries out what the today is to give an authoritative answer to the people of LGE will say is part of their desire, that is, to recycle as this Island, many people who still feel, and maybe they much material as they possibly can, and surely that is are wrong in their thinking, but they still feel passionately something that is laudable and indeed a responsibility that about the recycling route and they believe it is possible. we should do, surely then the cost-effectiveness reduces Now, if it is not possible they are clearly whistling in the in the sense that it is expected that it will be £20 million to wind. If the government has no intention whatsoever in £22 million for an incinerator and all the ancillary responding to their view let Tynwald Court make that quite equipment and yet if that is the case, then the other part of clear and then they will know at least where they stand. At the equation is that that same incinerator will require items the Loch Promenade meeting, and there was a full house, which at the same time the department say they would it was representative clearly of persons who care very wish to recycle. Now, this is the paradox which puzzles greatly. Many of them there have studied this issue in many people. It does not appear to add up. Yes, we want to greater detail, many of them no doubt, because it is an be seen to be doing the right thing and for the future of interest, may have studied it in greater detail than many course, and I would say that the awareness of making better members here today; so be it, everyone plays their part. • use of precious resources is something that people are But I would say that notwithstanding that as Friends of becoming more and more aware of. the Earth they lead the argument they represent many So here we have a situation where on the one hand the people who are not nominally members of Friends of the department in its present strategy is wanting to construct Earth but they clearly express a view that many people an incinerator but at the same time they are saying we also have expressed over the Foxdale issue and indeed many want to recycle as much as we can and yet if you look and of the concerns expressed by the hon. member for even in the, as I say, short time that we have to study the Glenfaba, Mr Gilbey. He expressed them quite adequately Friends of the Earth's submission on our desks this on the problems there. morning, if you have a look at the pie charts that they have So I move this on the basis that Tynwald Court makes a in there you can see the composition of the rubbish that is clear decision so that we know where we are going in the generated on this Island but equally they do complain that future and then people will be able to take note from that the department will not give them the official analysis of decision. Mr President, I beg to move. what is in our rubbish, and that is interesting in itself, but if you look at the pie chart where they have made a Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir. submission based on known analysis from other sources, then you will find that 32 per cent is paper and cardboard, The President: If no hon. member wishes to speak to you see that 30 per cent is organic. Now, paper and the resolution... Ah, welcome, sir. cardboard, two things can happen to it. It is depending on the market: sometimes there is a good demand for it and Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. I do hope hon. then it goes in a cycle where there is very little demand. members will understand that I mean no disrespect to this However, the organic is clearly organic but you can reduce hon. Court or themselves when I say that I do not wish to • paper and cardboard down and mix in with the organic. rehearse again in front of you all the arguments that I have The ash and the dust - so be it, that could be mixed in too. used on the waste management strategy of this hon. Court Therefore if you take the metals out that clearly have value, since I became Minister of the Department of Local and glass, well it can either be, as presently, exported or it Government and the Environment. could be mixed in with concrete and get rid of it that way, This hon. Court approved a strategy in 1990 and agreed and the commercial waste is a different matter altogether it. It debated it again in February 1994 with updates and because that is really a crime, what is going on and has agreed it. It debated it again with particular reference and been going on for years. There is valuable stone, bricks notice made of changing recycling opportunities in and hardcore being dumped right left and centre. That November 1995 and agreed it, and at the last sitting of this should be sorted out in its own right. But if you take those hon. Court I went through in some detail the then recent things out of the total tonnage there is a question mark investigations which the department had undertaken with there saying, 'Well, what is there left for this vast regard to various options for recycling. investment in an incinerator?' Certainly there is a need for I say again that the Tynwald Court strategy and my an incinerator in terms of fallen animals and hospital waste, department's strategy is not, as the hon. member began by but you have to question very seriously now, in view of talking, incineration. It is a policy which is completely in the changing view in recycling, the equipment that is now accord with the European hierarchy for waste management becoming valuable in the recycling process. I understand and disposal. It begins with the determination to see that plastics were not compatible in the past, but now I minimisation of the production of waste to begin with, to

• Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost T660 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

be followed by reuse and recycling and then disposal by Department of Industry and the Isle of Man Government incineration, in this hon. Court's view with energy recovery, in Ramsey and Jurby. They produce plastic film from and then landfill of the residuals. That is a strategy. granules of plastic which they import and they send it off • The hon. mover is right when he says one method is to bag-makers and the like in the UK. They are now recycling. It is one method, it is not the option. He is right employing upwards of 25 to 30 people from a start of two when we say that we should evaluate all the possibilities three and a half years ago: a considerable success. and quite frankly I believe the department is evaluating all Approximately 10 per cent of the product they make is the possibilities. My statement and speech to this hon. Court wasted. We visited there last week, I referred to it last month in November went through a number of different in this hon. Court and watched them recycle waste plastic possibilities in detail - plasma arc, pyrolysis et cetera - an and discussed with them getting a programme together with hour and a half of it, as I recall, and I am sure hon. members major users or producers of, waste plastic, shall we say, do as well! supermarket bags, films that cover pullovers and the like, so you could organise a collection system of the right clean Mr Kermode: Yes, we cannot forget it! plastic material for that machine that we saw to recycle. The department is doing it, we are involved with it, we Mr Groves: The letter from the Isle of Man Friends of understand it fully, we have the facts and figures. We do the Earth, which I have had an opportunity to glance at not have yet the precise tonnage of every single element quickly, I must refer to because whilst I do not doubt their that goes into the landfill tip at Ballacallow. I have said sincerity, they put figures in front of you which are that before. Why the hon. member should be surprised inaccurate, they make statements which are based on about it beats me because I have said before we do not averages and assumptions which cannot be accurately have those exact figures, which is why we now have a made in terms of determining a policy and a strategy. weighbridge there and a team of people evaluating and They refer to the fact that Milton Keynes' materials assessing the same. The hon. member for Douglas East, • recycling facility, about which I spoke at some length last Mr Braidwood, nods his head because he remembers me month in this hon. Court, also collects from industry, hotels saying it and that that process is going under way, it is .and other catering establishments. In general they do not. under way now. They collect from households: 80 per cent of the households of the Milton Keynes borough. Perhaps one or Mr Kermode: He is very observant, is our Phil. two industrial or catering establishments send some Mr Groves: material in there, but in general they do not collect from I would ask the hon. Court to accept that the department is addressing this issue properly and those establishments or industries. That is not true. And, responsibly as it should and as this hon. Court requires it, at the end of the day, the dry recyclable goods which the that this resolution and what it calls for is quite unnecessary materials facility collects in Milton Keynes from those 80 and I would ask them, as I will do, not to support it. per cent of households accounts for only 25 per cent of the total municipal solid waste produced. You will remember The President: I call upon the hon. mover to - Hon. I read out the leaflet that each household has and the items member. I would be glad if hon. members who wish to in here which I read out do not come from hotels, industry, speak would actually get to their feet promptly and indicate catering and the like. their desire. A quick look at some of the figures beyond the pie chart indicates prices per tonne for some items and I know that Mr Kaman: Sorry, Eaghtyrane. Allowing for the fact the figures they show here for newspapers and magazines that Tynwald's policy is incineration and has been for many are absolutely miles off the mark. Until very recently they years, as sure as I stand here today there has not been the have been getting £180 a tonne. The Chinese entered the evaluation and detailed investigation of the whole picture market and it fell through the floor to £30 a tonne last • and the whole options of the best way of dealing with the month. I know that we are getting £23 to £28 per tonne for refuse issue. Professional commercial firms dealing with our glass that we send to Ellesmere Port. The figure in waste management have told the DLGE for a number of here is different from that, it says £20, £18 and £16, but years that it is not the answer for the Isle of Man's refuse we are getting £23 to £28 and I know it is costing us £31 a to build an incinerator and for this they have been shown tonne to get it there. There is a figure of £200 mentioned the door politely. here for ferrous metal. It does not say how much of that Members will say that we have been dealing with this comes from the Isle of Man Government and the taxpayer issue for the last 10 years but we might as well have been anyway in subsidy. I know, because we are dealing with it in the Channel Tunnel because we have viewed it with every day. We are evaluating recycling, the sort of materials tunnel vision. There has not been the comprehensive we should recycle, the targeting we should make in the investigation that we have been told and been led to believe. Isle of Man towards achieving solid effective recycling I believe, hon. members, that this Court should have as and reuse targets. We are doing it every day. We do not clear and fully briefed a picture as possible on this very need to come to this hon. Court and give you a report about important issue because I am telling this hon. Court that it. We believe we are doing it every day. this so-called step forward could turn out to be a tumble One day last week I and my colleagues went to over a financial precipice so that future generations will Packaging Matters which is a company established with regret the day not just financially but on the environmental the considerable help, that they acknowledge, of the issues as well. Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T661

I would go as far to say that here today if we do not aware that incineration would only deal with the organic support this motion we are having the second most fraction of the waste produced. Incinerators cannot handle • damaging policy being put forward, only second to the the bulk of construction waste nor can they burn metals, insanity of the proposed IRIS scheme with the majority of glass and other inorganic substances. Typically this would the system not being gravity-fed: another financial leave some 30 to 60 per cent of the Island's waste needing millstone for future generations to have to find the energy some other form of disposal method. There would also requirements for. have been another problem in that incinerators generate As one of the older members of this hon. Court I have ash from the grate and other produce from the gas-cleaning seen the change of direction as far as the justification equipment. That will equate with something in the area of against recycling is concerned. I could quite easily describe 35 per cent of the input of the waste by weight. It must be it as some form of Dutch auction over the years from the seen that an incinerator therefore can only dispose of a early days where we were told it would mean the end of small proportion of the waste produced by the Island. tips on the Island if we had incineration instead of going `It is possible that if the government were to review its for a policy of recycling waste, we would be able to sell commitment to incineration in the light of today's the heat and it would cost virtually nothing. Even if we go circumstances they would come up with a different to Ballaoates they will not use the waste heat, making it conclusion. If they were to occur it would arise out of the economic insanity to go down the road of incineration. concern that an incinerator would be reliant upon the We have been told in more recent times that we are plastics and the paper within the normal waste stream to going to recycle some of the waste and we will put the rest create the right combustion circumstances. If they were to of the waste in the incinerator and there would still be a be removed from the waste stream by recycling and waste need for a tip but it will make it 10 times as long because minimisation the incinerator would require more fuel, we have got an incinerator. making the economics highly questionable. Furthermore Now we hear the latest turn of events for justifying an it is unlikely that a cost-effective energy generation scheme • could form part of an incinerator complex. incinerator instead of recycling. I was told that we have to have an incinerator because we are going to have to spend `Turning to the present, Shanks and McEwan believe £8 million on a new hospital incinerator so we might as the government should evaluate a new waste management well spend £18 million on an incinerator for the Isle of strategy that would be based upon recycling, reuse and Man. composting with a strategy that would commence at the place waste is produced and would rely upon the education Mr Groves: Who told you that? of the public, waste segregation and a new approach to collection. The various waste streams such as paper, glass, metal, plastics, garden and green waste - green waste being Mr Karran: These are statements that have been made the term used to describe garden waste, tree pruning et by members of the hon. minister's department as far as cetera - chemical waste, food waste, construction waste this is concerned. would be delivered to the recycling station in a segregated manner and this would be packaged for sale or treatment. Mr Groves: Nonsense. `Most of this would be exported, but the green waste could be composted on the Island and reused. The Mr Karran: The fact of the matter is that when we construction waste could be converted into secondary have a close evaluation of clinical waste it shows that at aggregate or other fill materials. Carried out effectively, least 70 per cent can be disposed of by other means than this may well account for as much as 80 per cent of the incineration, making it not as important an issue as far as Island's current waste produce, leaving special solutions this is concerned and with new technology of industrial to be found for limited waste streams such as clinical waste. microwaves they can deal with the rest of the waste. Because of the relatively small volumes concerned suitable Hon. members, I received a letter from a leading UK solutions could be identified and implemented. waste management company which reads as follows, some `Undoubtedly there will be more problems to overcome time ago: 'Dear Mr Karran, Isle of Man waste disposal. and this letter is not the appropriate vehicle to identify all Thank you very much for phoning me last Thursday to the proposed solutions. A detailed investigation is required enquire further about Shanks and McEwan's view on how to fully assess the position but we feel confident that given the Isle of Man might best address its waste disposal the appropriate commitment you may well form a better responsibilities. I promised to write to you during the and greener and more economic solution than incineration. course of our conversation and this is what I am doing `I have made a similar suggestion in my letter to the now. Firstly, however, I would like to remind you that I minister. I hope that what I have said here will be of use to have already written to the minister at Murray House and you, but please do not hesitate to come back to me if you placed on record my company's views. I am hopeful that require further clarification.' the minister will respond and show interest in my letter in We have in front of us today, hon. members, the fact due course.' This, hon. members, is a letter of 19 September that the incinerator and recycling should go to the top and 1995. 'You will remember that the government has made not be a poor second at best. The waste management a commitment to incineration as a solution to the waste strategy has good points in it: minimisation, civic amenity management problems of the Island and in our view when sites, landfill, industrial, commercial, special waste the commitment was made it had much to recommend it. definitions of landfill means, reciprocal waste means and But even at the time the government would have been of course it speaks of incineration.

• Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost T662 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

I quote from the item 5 about recycling in the waste fold, it is more likely at the best being a two and a half to management programme: 'The department shall continue three-fold increase in the length of time that a land tip will and, where practicable, improve and promote recycling fill. • schemes. Such schemes provide for the removal from the This is an incinerator for a population of 71,000, which waste stream of items or materials which can be is about as accurate as the figures of the DLGE as far as beneficially recycled, for example, glass, aluminium, paper, the costs involved as far as the proposal of the waste clothes, construction and demolition waste.' But if you go management policy. It does not make economic sense. As back to my letter of 19th September 1995 from a leading already pointed out by Shanks & McEwan, the truth of the commercial firm who deal with waste management, 'It is situation is that for the size of the population of the Island, possible that if the government were to review its unless the government want to see Dandara build for a commitment to incineration in the light of today's population of 200,000, it will never make economic circumstances they would come up with a different commercial sense to go down the road of incineration conclusion. If they were to occur it would arise out of the instead of recycling. concern that an incinerator would be reliant upon the Finally I quote from an article written by an associate plastics and the paper within the normal waste stream to professor of chemistry at Princeton University, a Paul create the right combustion circumstances. If they were to Connett, from The Ecologist of 1994 concerning reciprocal be removed from the waste stream by recycling and waste waste incinerators. Now, I know that the hon. minister has minimisation the incinerator would require more fuel, not got this chap maybe in as high a regard as maybe making the economics highly questionable. Furthermore ourselves, but then some of the people who are giving the it is unlikely that a cost-effective energy generation scheme advice to the minister we find very questionable as well. could form part of an incinerator complex.' Not the view So I admit that there is an argument whether my people of the hon. member for Onchan, but the view of a leading are right or whether the minister's people are right as far UK firm of waste management consultants who deal with as this is concerned. 'However, as concerned citizens have pointed out and many local authorities have accepted, • this issue. Someone has got it wrong in a big way. (Mr Kermode: incineration is by no means as clear as its advocates claim. Hear, hear.) The department has written its own get-out Incineration does not make waste disappear: they reduce clause when I quote item 5 again of the DLGE's waste it to toxic ash and air emissions, both of which are management strategy dealing with recycling: 'The potentially hazardous. Often decision-makers are misled department shall continue, where practicable' and I repeat, by the claim that there is a 90 per cent volume reduction `where practicable, to improve and promote recycling when rubbish is burnt in an incinerator and it is concluded that the dwindling landfill sites will stretch 10 times as schemes.' But if we have an incinerator to run you will far. This is not the case. The figure of 90 per cent refers to need all the wood, all the paper, all the plastics and other a strict comparison between waste entering the incinerator burnable materials to keep the running costs down. You and ash leaving it and it does not include rubbish that cannot cannot run an effective recycling scheme if you have a be burnt or has been missed when the facility has to be large expensive incinerator to run as well. closed for repair. It does not take account of the fact when We saw this hon. Court's response to my debate in the rubbish goes to the landfill that it gets compacted. When October over my resolution. Where were the answers? such factors are taken into account the overall volume They were not given, because the truth of the matter is the saving with an operating incinerator is something between work has not been done on an even playing field as far as 60 and 70 per cent. The precious landfill site is only the full picture of the waste management requirements for stretched two and a half to three times, not the ten-fold the future are concerned. increase sometimes implied by the promoters of Now once again we have the opportunity to break free incineration.' Moreover the article goes on to say that the from this crazy policy, because if we go down this road ash can be toxic and about 90 per cent of the so-called the financial costs between recycling and incineration I bottom ash remains in the furnace and is collected from • believe will be somewhere in the region of well over a the grates. The remaining 10 per cent fly ash is drawn up hundred pounds a tonne and that is going to be more likely the flue gasses and collected in the boilers, the heat the true picture if we keep to the government's policy as exchangers, the air pollution control equipment. Not only far as the costs of incineration are concerned to the present are most of the toxic metals captured in the fly ash, but a £30 or £40 per tonne at the present time. number of toxic compounds including dioxins and furans Eighteen million pounds or £20 million for a suitable are actually created, manufactured, on the fly ash particles incinerator for 70,000 people does not include the cost of in the process called 'post Combustion formulation'. allowing for the new tips. It only cost £6 million for Milton So on the three issues of reduction of waste it is now so Keynes to build a waste sorting depot and recycling system clearly demonstrated in Europe and in America that for 200,000 people and yet we are being asked to find £18 incinerators reduce the bulk to be disposed of less than million to £20 million to reduce our final disposal to landfill recycling. On the costs incineration is more expensive than at best by 35 per cent compared to Milton Keynes' 25 per recycling. On the environmental issue, apart from the issue cent, which I agree with the hon. minister would not happen of the ozone layer, the incinerator is worse for the overnight, but would happen if there was the commitment. environment than recycling. Do we need a stronger So we have a situation here where it is not the 90 per cent argument than this to tell us that we are doing something total reduction as far as the proposers of incineration are wrong here today if we do not support the proposal in front concerned, making our valuable landfill sites increase ten- of us? Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T663

Here we are being led down the road to build an The President: Hon. member, I think there is a need • incinerator and not support the motion before us today, for a little closer interpretation of the resolution and has because I am sure there has not been the investigation. been for some time. Once again government is looking for a quick-fix solution and we will pay dearly for it. Mr Karran: Certainly, Eaghtyrane - and the government says that there is no need as far as this is Mr Cannan: You are in trouble again, Terry! concerned. I believe that this hon. Court should just work out whether we are right over that and whether we will be Mr Karran: Many in this hon. Court talk about Isle of right over the waste management policy. If we allow Man Limited. Well, if this hon. Court does not support government to build an incinerator rather than a recycling this motion today and we were Isle of Man Limited, as a plant without supporting this motion and without getting company pursuing such a reckless policy without the the full facts we will do a disservice again. proper investigation into other areas such as recycling being I know that this speech has been long and I hope that addressed, with such liabilities that could fall onto the some members will have listened to the contents of this company, there would be a question that if we were Isle of speech and will realise that this is not just an issue of what Man Limited, then we would be done for criminal my views are but issues of people who are in the field, negligence in years to come. who have no vested interest, who are not on a commission Hon. members, I hope you will support the motion basis. I hope that hon. members will support the motion before us today because government is not a bottomless before us today. pit to throw money at failed concepts. The queries I have Hon. members, I am concerned that hon. members do raised need investigation. This issue is vital for the Island's not get involved in the personalities as far as the mover is future. You do nothing but a disservice to every man, concerned over moving this resolution and the change of • woman and child and future generations if you allow heart. This is not important. The core issue is important. yourselves to be intimidated and panicked into not allowing The size of the Isle of Man and the present waste recycling to be investigated fully. management policy will not work and this is not just the The minister has already talked in this debate and it is a view of the hon. member for Onchan, it is the view of shame that he could not have reassured this hon. Court as commercial firms who deal in waste management. Now, far as the reduction is concerned and my concerns. If we why the hon. mover has changed his mind as far as moving take the true picture of the waste generated on this Island this proposal is secondary. The important issue is the fact of 100 per cent an incinerator can only deal with 70 per that it is the core issue. The truth is there has not been the cent of that waste to start with. It can only further reduce evaluation, there has not been the level playing field as far that 70 per cent of waste that goes into that incinerator by as this issue is concerned. Incineration has been on top as a maximum of 70 per cent. So the volume reduction will the panacea as far as the waste management issue is be around 40 per cent of the total waste generated, the concerned for the last 10 years. I hope this hon. Court will waste cake generated in the Isle of Man, and we are told support the proposal in front of us today. that Milton Keynes can reduce their waste by 25 per cent in total by recycling. So we are still going to follow blindly Mr Downie: Mr President, hon. members, I rise to speak the policy that will cost us much more and only reduce against the motion and I just want to read the motion again our waste difference by 15 per cent, not the 90 per cent. so members will be fully aware of what the implications By building this incinerator we are told that it is going to are with it: 'That the Department of Local Government increase the life of our precious landfill sites by ten-fold. and the Environment evaluate recycling as an alternative The fact of the matter is it will increase the life of the to incineration for waste disposal and report.' • landfill site by three to four and that is being extremely Hon. members, before I rose to my feet I did circulate generous as far as this is concerned. you with a press cutting which has appeared recently in Hon. members, with the cash difference and the the Maltese newspapers. Now, what happened in Malta environmental issues is it worth it and are you sure that was that they got swept up in the recycling theme, they the evaluation has been done equitably as far as the policy decided to go ahead and build a recycling plant, which is is concerned over incineration to recycling? I am not saying situated just outside of Valetta. Since the construction of for one minute, since I believe in being fair, that the 25 per the recycling plant there have been all sorts of problems cent of Milton Keynes will happen overnight. I understand appertaining to it, largely due to the emissions, the smell that that would take a couple of years and would take a lot of the place, the composting operation, and it has got to of education on the part of the general public, but if we do such an extent now that it is a major issue in Malta and not start re-educating our own people as far as waste is there are moves afoot at the moment to go to the European concerned all that is going to happen is the problem is Court and to seek damages for unlawful attacks on people's going to get greater and greater. physical and psychological integrity caused by the odours Surely there is merit in the proposal before us today. and I am sure that the case is going to rumble on for some Do not insult my intelligence by misquoting me and years to come. bringing up red herrings such as the issue that I raised in What hon. members must realise is that these plants do another place over the incineration of BSE-infected have problems attached to them. In theory they are animals. Frankly, we are told by certain circles that the environmentally friendly, because they try to apply the BSE agent can live in the ground for over three years - recycling policy to other areas, but let us look at this in an • Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost T664 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

Isle of Man situation and the previous speaker, the hon. The President: I thought the hon. member was going member for Onchan, said that we should invest in one of to seek an adjournment so that we might all go to Malta. • these plants. Now, hon. members, you can seen the (Laughter) The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Cringle. problems we have in gaining planning permission for less visually intrusive or less environmentally friendly plants Mr Cringle: Mr President, I am absolutely satisfied such as these. Now, do you honestly mean to tell me that that there are many, many people in the Isle of Man who we are going to take all our refuse in the Isle of Man, we are of a similar mind to myself and my mind has been are going to put it to a recycling plant, we are then going pretty constant on this from day one, that instinct tells the to pick all the other by-products up, plus the 75 per cent of human being that nature should recycle and reuse and it that is wasted, and then we are either going to take that therefore the general public should be reusing and recycling to landfill, because that is the disposal route at the moment, the commodities which are there for our daily use. Now, or we are then going to go and incinerate it? that is basic and absolute straightforward instinct. The cost of setting up this sort of a system is absolutely Now, we are also aware in this hon. Court that over a horrendous and I think the department's policy at the considerable period of time the Department of Local moment is right. We are trying to do as much recycling as Government and our government-employed experts in one we possibly can, where practical, but we have got to realise form or another have consistently and repeatedly looked that the Isle of Man is never ever going to be the world at the question of handling the household refuse in the Isle leader in recycling. The ongoing cost of removing the of Man. It is not something which has cropped up now, it recycled products from the Isle of Man is a major factor has been an ongoing factor, no ifs and no buts on that, and that has to be taken into consideration and I am if we take on board the fact that we have employed experts, disappointed that the previous speakers, when supporting we have had various shades of political opinion from within recycling, have not included this in the debate thus far. I the elected Members of the House of Keys and within this think where Milton Keynes scores is because it is in the hon. Court who equally serve on various boards and • centre of the United Kingdom and all the traffic networks departments over a period of time and they have also lead to Milton Keynes and all the arisings are virtually on questioned the options which are available I suppose there the doorstep, but they are only recycling clean resorted comes a time when you have to say, 'Which is the right materials. If you are going to have a sorting facility before decision which is going to be made?' and a decision has to you actually start your recycling process, that is another be ultimately taken. cost that must be borne in the whole equation. Now, I feel that the Minister for DoLGE at the present Anyway, I hope members will have a look at what is time sits on a thorny question and he has got two problems. happening in Malta because it is a very, very good example He has got the problem of getting an incinerator site, which of what could happen in the Isle of Man because there are seems to be the waste strategy which is to be progressed, an awful lot of similarities. which is Tynwald Court's waste strategy. You have got the Moving on, the Maltese Government have now problem of a site and ultimately of course we will have produced this document and I will just read out the basics. the problem of expense, because at some stage somebody This has been circulated to everyone living in Malta and it is going to say, 'Well, okay, that is what it is going to cost is called ' Waste:"(1) We produce far much waste. Each to develop and that is where we are going to go.' household produces approximately 1 tonne of waste per Now, the resolution which is on the agenda paper before year. Up to two years ago, all waste used to be disposed of us as item number 3 simply says, 'That the Department of by dumping. We have almost no more space to dump Local Government and the Environment evaluate waste.' A similar situation to the Isle of Man. 'It is essential recycling'. Now, I am absolutely satisfied that there is no- to reduce waste production. Part of the waste can be one better in the Isle of Man at the present time to evaluate recycled.' The same situation as the Isle of Man. 'The recycling on the Isle of Man. They are the experts. The minister has told us that daily they know what the costs • remaining fraction can be burned in special ovens called Incinerators. These ovens can produce electricity.' are, they know what tonnage they are dealing with, they Now, that is exactly what Malta has done and they are have an idea over what they can get for the return, whether in a similar situation to this, but, hon. members, I would it be for glass, whether it be for paper, all those things are like to steer you away from this particular route, this daily at their fingertips. They are certainly not at mine. I recycling plant and composting. If this site in Malta is have to say what my instinct is, but I do not have the anything like the sites that we saw in Italy I can tell you professional knowledge that they have. Nevertheless there will be a political decision to be made now, it is not for the Isle of Man, and I understand that this and that political decision will be dressed up equally with particular recycling plant was Dutch and it conforms to all the economics of the situation as the minister will have to the latest European standards and technology and I come at some stage and say, 'That is the cost which you understand from an hon. member who was on holiday in are going to have to face, this hon. Court' and at that stage Malta quite recently that he stayed in the vicinity of this we have to bear it. particular plant and he said that there were problems Now, I say that, frankly, as far as I am concerned, if the associated with it. minister who has asked us to vote against this particular So with that I urge members not to support the motion resolution this morning was to come to this hon. Court in and to stick with the present department's policy which I the future without having done some evaluation on think is well founded and should be supported. recycling and other matters so that he can put some figures

Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T665

in front of the hon. Court at that stage, well then politically Mr Rodan: Now, if the whole debate recently, in recent he is in another minefield. So I say to this hon. Court that weeks and months, on waste management has done • anything it has, I believe, reaffirmed the correctness of the realistically, if you accept as I do that the experts, those employed by the Department of Local Government, are in department's approach, the correctness and the daily dealing with this matter, if they cannot come up with acceptability of incineration as one of the waste some sort of figures I do not know who else can and they management options open in the Island. There is are going to be questioned and to make the case they are widespread public acceptance now of incineration which going to have to present an evaluation. They are going to did not exist before as part of the strategy, a lot of the fears have to. I think that stands out to me a mile. They are quite rightly the public felt have now been met and of certainly going to have to make it for my support when it course part of all this has been the contribution of Professor comes to the ultimate conclusion. David Bellamy who is not only a recycling man but an So whilst I appreciate where my hon. colleague is incinerator man and perhaps Mr Karran should be reminded coming from in putting this resolution on the agenda paper of what Mr Bellamy said in fact after the decision on the for this hon. Court, I simply will say to the hon. Minister Stoney Mountain site was announced. He said, 'I think of DoLGE, I think your department have to do this government was brave going down the incinerator line.' irrespective of this resolution anyway and I will oppose He hopes the incinerator is in Douglas, it should go where the resolution also. all the rubbish is produced; he hopes that it will provide all the electricity for the hospital; he would love to come Mr Rodan: Mr President, as far as the contribution from and see the incinerator when it is opened and working. the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, is concerned I `The Island community has chosen a state-of-the-art incinerator and if it co-produces energy, that is even better. had a considerable feeling of déjà vu over his contribution The cost of getting stuff to the mainland to recycle is very but I do admire the way he steadily wears down the high and I think government made the right decision, but opposition to his particular point of view in this whole • picked the wrong site.' So that is Professor David debate. He has again told us how it is economic insanity to Bellamy's view. go down the road of an incinerator in the Isle of Man; he But getting back to the motion in question, that the has again told this hon. Court how the department is doing department should evaluate recycling, as the hon. member a disservice to every man, woman and child in the Island Mr Cringle has correctly pointed out, it is doing this every by pursuing its waste management strategy because it day of its working life. We have waste management experts includes incineration as a component; he has rehearsed within the department who have been concentrating on the well-worn arguments against incineration at the place little else for months and years and as part of that ongoing it sits within the waste management strategy. But these are evaluation of recycling the department, following its visit arguments that have been rightly rejected time and time to the recycling facilities at Milton Keynes and in Italy, again by not only our own waste management professional concluded that, yes, there was a place for recycling, it consultants, the department's technical officers, the reaffirmed the value of recycling as part of the overall European governments in their agreed hierarchy of waste strategy, and to that end it invited Professor West, who management options, but of course by this hon. Court on members will recall was over in the Island at the invitation several occasions over the past 15 years. I do suggest to of Friends of the Earth and whom the hon. member Mr the hon. member that he reads again the speech of the hon. Karran had members of Tynwald meet, very kindly, that minister Mr Groves who in November quite clearly gave Friday lunchtime, to carry out a thorough evaluation and the answers to the concerns he raised about the way the feasibility study of recycling for the Island along the lines department is pursuing the strategy and what incineration that he put to us several weeks ago. means in terms of volume and mass reduction and landfill. Now, to date unfortunately Professor West has not been I refer to the hon. member's contributions because, while to the Island to carry out the feasibility study that was asked he is sincere in his opposition to incineration, he has again of him, a study which should have been concluded, the been very selective in his quotation of various waste initial study, within a period of four weeks. Such is the management companies; Shanks & McEwan again he pressing need to come to some definite conclusions on our waste management problems. It is a matter of great specifically named. Now, while it is true that Shanks & regret that Professor West has not been over to initiate the McEwan did write to the department in September and feasibility study, but the fact remains that the department today he again quoted from that letter to the department in asked him to do so and therefore hon. members can safely which they raise grave reservations about incineration in conclude that evaluation of recycling as an alternative to the Isle of Man, he will also be aware that Shanks & incineration for waste disposal is ongoing, the place of McEwan, following a meeting with the department's recycling within the strategy in respect of incineration is officers and understanding the position that the Island is ongoing within the department and therefore there is no in, did conclude, albeit reluctantly, that incineration and need to support the motion today as printed. Thank you, the Island's waste management strategy was right and they Mr President. put this in writing again to the department and the minister quoted that at the November sitting of Tynwald. That is The President: I call on the hon. mover to reply. the answer to that problem. Mr Corrin: Thank you, Mr President, and first of all Mr Karran: Who owns the chequebook? may I thank most sincerely everyone who has contributed • Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost T666 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 to the debate. It would be a strange Tynwald if people did arrangement is broken, which is something that the Chief not express views and I found them all very interesting. I Minister in his policy says you would have to think long would like to say I thank Mr Duggan for seconding the • and hard about going down that road, here we are and the motion and allowing a debate to take place in the first place. Treasury will tell you that they have not got the money to If I could just go, I think perhaps, backwards on some pay for all this and it is going to be another tax on the of the comments made, I would just say that as far as the people. Now, where is that money going to come from hon. member for Garff is concerned, Mr Rodan, I when we may have up to £8 to £11 a week for every understand that he has just said that the LGE, the household which is paying ultimately for refuse and paying department is awaiting a submission from Professor West. for the grand IRIS scheme? These are the things for the My understanding of the situation is in fact that Professor future that we should be bearing in mind and these are the West is awaiting information from the department before things indeed that are behind the hon. member Mr Karran he can come forward. Now, what do you believe is going and his contribution this morning. We have heard it before, on in this issue? But that is what I am reliably informed is it is true, but he has put forward some very, very pointed the case and where the truth lies I do not know but, there questions and clearly he has gone into this matter deeply you are, that is another version of that comment made. too. Mr Rodan referred to the department's technical officers Now, the thing that perhaps concerns me most of all is, and 15 years of study and so on. Well, we are aware that having attended the meeting at Loch Parade Church and technical officer Mr Dobbie has been very keen on district indeed other meetings with persons who are interested in heating and he has been pushing piping hot water for miles this subject, they are dedicated to it, they think about it, around Douglas for years. Now, it is only a matter of weeks they trust us, they trust the elected politicians, the elected ago that, with respect, minister Mr Groves, you dismissed representatives, to seriously take on board their thinking, that out of hand because of the cost of it and as I recall on discuss it and explain the way forward, they genuinely do, a debate on Manx Radio, you said that a district heating and I am aware of a few members who were at that meeting • system is something that is built up over years and so to that night and at the conclusion of that meeting. Now, the get a return from an incinerator plant on a district heating people there genuinely put forward a motion and that basis would take years before you would get the return motion was a very loose one, it was an expression of because of the cost of putting in and the time it would take opinion, really no more than that, but that expression of to put a hot water system in wherever. So you believe what opinion was genuinely accepting that the elected you want to believe and that was dismissed. So here we representatives will be listening to them and will take on have the LGE a little bit at sea. board and discuss these issues and that is what concerns I thank Mr Cringle for his understanding of the situation me today is the manner, the contribution from the minister and also I readily understand the professional position he who is responsible, the dismissive attitude. I can understand finds himself in in being able to go a little bit further on what went on at that Foxdale meeting after listening this what I do believe he genuinely believes in. But there we morning, with respect, minister. That is not the way you are, that is politics for you. get people on your side - Now, the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Downie, he was on about cost. Now, it is only a matter of three or A Member: And you should know. (Laughter) four weeks ago that in conversation with a colleague on this very subject when I was bringing my mind together Mr Corrin: - and when you think of the people who on this I remarked that the estimated cost of going down were at Loch Parade Church in the meeting room there the DLGE road would be £120 a tonne and I was corrected, and their concerns and what they felt that at a minimum indeed, by the hon. member and you insisted that it was their representatives would take on board and discuss and £130 a tonne which would be the cost of this policy. Now, give the facts and figures and when their views are just there we are, who is to pay this cost? I can see that we are tossed aside as if they do not mean anything, that perhaps • going down a road that in the future if you have this, as the is the telling part of this. Chief Minister said, and he is considering a waste disposal I thank every member for his/her contribution. I think authority which brings the IRIS into the scheme of it has been an excellent airing of the situation. It is one of disposing with that too, the costs will be defrayed by the issues of the day, there is no question of that. It is clear imposing a cost, just like the Water Authority does now, that there is a weakness in the strategy in that on the one on each household and in fact it is a tax, it is something hand the LGE is saying that we are recycling and on the that you cannot choose to take or not pay, it is a tax and other hand they are saying that the policy is incineration. with horrendous costs that have been proposed of £130 Now, as the hon. member for Onchan pointed out, you per tonne. cannot have them both because if you go down one route, Now, bearing in mind that the low taxation policy of then you are consuming what is required to fire the the Island, which has stood us in good stead of years, is incinerator. That is basically in layman's terms what it is. being slowly, not overtaken, but certainly the United You cannot have both and that has not been answered today Kingdom is coming within striking distance of us, so that again. Mr President, thank you very, very much. advantage is disappearing, and bearing in mind that the VAT and the common purse arrangement is questionable The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution and that is the way the UK and indeed the EU get their as set out at item 3 on the order paper. Will those in favour money in, we have that arrangement and unless that please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. Recycling — Evaluation by DLGE — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T667

• A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: In November 1992 that select committee filed their report making a number of recommendations. The first In the Keys - related to the Council of Ministers providing guidelines on the provision of information to members of Tynwald, For: Messrs Corrin, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood such guidelines to be approved by Tynwald. The second and Karran - 6 concerned the establishment of a standing committee of Tynwald to consider and report on draft European Against: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Community proposals and delegated legislation made Walker, Cringle, Brown, May, Kermode, Downie, Mrs under authority of Tynwald. The third recommendation Hannan, Messrs Groves, Corkill, Kniveton, Gelling and contained in the report of the select committee was that the Speaker - 17 the Public Accounts Committee should be restyled as the Standing Committee on Expenditure and Public Accounts The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys the with a somewhat wider remit than that which presently motion fails to carry with 6 votes in favour and 17 against. exists. The fourth recommendation was that the Tynwald Management Committee be tasked to assess the resource In the Council - implications and report to Tynwald. On 15th December 1992 the report of the select For: None committee was debated in Tynwald. The motion, moved by Mr Speaker and seconded by Mr Lowey, the hon. Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, member for Council, called for the recommendations to Radcliffe, Luft, Mrs Christian and Mr Delaney - 8 be received and approved. The Chief Minister successfully moved an amendment that the motion be adjourned for • The President: In the Council no votes have been cast three months for the Council of Ministers to report on the in favour of the resolution and 8 votes have been cast implications of the recommendations. The Council of against. I declare the resolution to have failed. Ministers filed their report in February 1993 and the issue was further debated at the March sitting of Tynwald. Mr Brown, in the absence of the Chief Minister, moved an amendment which replaced those contained in the select ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT committee report. For ease of reference for members, I have circulated an extract from the Tynwald proceedings The President: Now, hon. members, I have to announce and the amended recommendations, I think, start on page that Royal Assent has been given to the Drug Trafficking T444. However, the differences were quite marginal. The Act, the Food Act, the Opticians Act and the Insurance Council of Ministers' amended recommendations did, Intermediaries Act, the Law Reform (Miscellaneous however, effect the following variations. Provisions) Act and the Timeshare Act, all of 1996. In regard to the provision of information to members the Council of Ministers advocated that they issue a direction to departments and statutory boards and submit SCRUTINY OF GOVERNMENT POLICIES AND that direction to Tynwald for approval before circulating ACTIVITIES — SELECT COMMITTEE REPORT to departments and statutory boards. Now, the select — DEBATE COMMENCED committee recommendation was that a draft direction be put to Tynwald for approval. So the change was in form The President: Now, we turn now to item 4, hon. rather than substance. This recommendation has now been • members, and I call upon the hon. member for Ayre. implemented. Second, the substance of the changes advanced by the Mr Quine: Mr President, I beg to move: Council of Ministers for dealing with European Community matters were aimed at providing, as was described to us in the debate, greater focus on certain That paragraphs (4) and (5) of the resolution of aspects of, firstly, draft proposals, and secondly, delegated this hon. Court at its March 1993 sitting, with respect to legislative instruments, and details are set out in the the Report of the Select Committee on a Need for a appendix to the Council of Ministers' report. Mechanism to Scrutinise the Policies and Activities of In regard to the restyling of the Public Accounts Government, be implemented with effect from 1st January Committee the Council of Ministers recommended that 1997. the exclusions from membership should provide that the chairman and vice-chairman shall not be the presiding On 23rd January 1992 I moved a motion that a select officers or a member of the Council of Ministers. These committee of five members be appointed to consider and amended recommendations were unanimously approved report within three months on the need for a standing by Tynwald, that is, all three that I have referred to. committee or an alternative mechanism to scrutinise The Council of Ministers endorsed the fourth select government policies and activities and report thereon to committee recommendation that the resource implications Tynwald Court. That motion was approved and a select for the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald should be assessed committee was established. by the Tynwald Management Committee. This was

• Announcement of Royal Assent Scrutiny of Government Policies and Activities — Select Committee Report — Debate Commenced T668 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 subsequently done and amounted to one clerk and a part- of Ministers, there may be different attitudes altogether time secretary. No action was taken at that time to obtain regarding this and many other matters and this matter is the additional staff, the view being taken that as government not actually one that directly affects the public, it is one • had applied a freeze to the government establishment the much more of our own administration and our own way of legislature should follow the same line. operating matters and therefore I personally feel that this In July 1993 Mr Speaker moved a motion that the two is a matter which should not be considered by us at the remaining recommendations be implemented, that is, the end of our term of office but should be considered by the establishing of the Committee on European Community new House of Keys and the new Tynwald who may have proposals and legislative instruments and the introduction totally different ideas about it, may wish to extend or even of the restyled Public Accounts Committee and it was Mr reduce the remit suggested. I do not know which. Downie who seconded that motion. The Chief Minister Now, the hon. mover of the motion says, `Ah, we should opposed the implementation of the recommendations. He decide now because it affects the duties of the Speaker made two principal points. The updating of the Tynwald and whether the hon. Mr Speaker should be chairman of orders had not been completed. That exercise, of course, the Public Accounts Committee or not.' But that really is has now been completed. Secondly, as there was a freeze not a point that is of great significance in the overall on government staff increases it would be inappropriate to consideration of this because the Speaker could always be grant a staff increase to the legislature. That freeze on appointed to the Public Accounts Committee initially and establishment now has been eased, if not lifted. A majority if changes were made he could resign and someone else of members heeded the Chief Minister's advocacy and Mr could take his place. Speaker's motion failed. So I believe this is a matter which should be considered not now by us at the end of our term of office but by the My motion today calls for the implementation of paragraphs 4 and 5 of the resolution passed by this hon. new House of Keys in particular and therefore I move: Court in March 1993, that is, the introduction of the restyled That in accordance with standing order 3.27 (1) • Public Accounts Committee only. It does not call for the establishment of the Committee on European Community debate be adjourned to the Apri11997 sitting. Legislation. It is, of course, open to any members to amend And then the new House will have got into place. They my motion by simply deleting items 4 and 5 and inserting will be able to consider the matter and decide what they 2, 3, 4 and 5 and that would certainly cause the European want rather than us imposing it on them. I so move. committee to be embraced by this motion. Now, my reason for excluding the Committee on The President: The member of the Council, are you European Community Legislation is quite simple. It does seconding, sir? not need to be addressed now and it would increase, or could be claimed to increase, the resource requirement, Mr Delaney: I am certainly not, Mr President. small as it is. This is not to say that I do not advocate the creation of this committee on European matters at the Mr Radcliffe: I will second, sir, in order to get the earliest opportunity, for I do. However, there is a need to debate going. readdress the matter of the Public Accounts Committee now. The new House will be elected in November and the The President: The adjournment resolution has now first requirement will be to appoint a Speaker of the House. been seconded. The hon. member of the Council, Mr If the new-style Public Accounts Committee is to come Delaney. into being, Mr Speaker or the then Mr Speaker could no longer be chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. It Mr Delaney: Speaking very quickly to the adjournment makes sense therefore to me to clear the air before we are debate, hon. members, the rationale that has been put called upon to fill the post of Speaker and the chairman of forward by a proposal for this adjournment could actually • the Public Accounts Committee following the next general be operated on every piece of legislation, every resolution. election. For everything on this order paper it could be argued that Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my because we are close to a general election it should be left name. to the new House because they might not agree with it. We were not sent and should not have been sent to pass it Mr Crowe: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve off to someone or maybe there would be no changes my remarks. whatsoever and all we have done is delayed the improvements to the system that are expected of us. If you Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I feel that this motion is out accept the argument by the mover for the adjournment do of time now. We have had a long history as to what has led not bother with any of the rest of the agenda on this agenda up to it but it all started some three years ago. Things are paper either. Do not bother with it because the same now very different to when they were three years ago. We argument is relevant to that: the next House of Keys may are very shortly having a general election and we have to have a different view. face it that we are, many of us, birds of passage. We may I hope this hon. Court will not support such a flimsy or may not be here. There may be a totally different House argument to pass off the necessary changes that are being of Keys, although the Legislative Council will be the same, required and supported by this chamber to somebody, there may be a different Chief Minister, a different Council possibly, in the future. Scrutiny of Government Policies and Activities — Select Committee Report — Debate Commenced • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T669

Mr Walker: Mr President, I would just say my view Mr Quine: Mr President, I am almost lost for words, 11. on the timing of this resolution accords more with that sir! (Laughter) I do not think there is really anything for promoted by Mr Quine than by the hon. member for me to reply to. (Members: Hear, hear.) The only Glenfaba, Mr Gilbey. It seems to me that this is the pertinent substantive matter we had was raised by way of an time to discuss this motion and I will not be supporting adjournment debate and we have concluded that, so I will the motion for adjournment. waste no more of the Court's time so I move that the motion be approved, sir. Thank you very much. Mr Kermode: Well spoken, sir. The President: Hon. members, I put the resolution set Members: Vote! out at item 4 on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Well, I will put the motion for adjournment which is that in accordance with standing Mr Kermode: That does not happen very often! order 3.27 (1) the debate be adjourned to the April 1997 sitting. Will those in favour of that motion please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. PLANNING — WRIGHT'S PIT EAST APPLICATION — FAILURE TO USE SPECIAL A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: INQUIRY PROCEDURE — MOTION LOST

In the Keys - The President: Hon. members, item 5 and I call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. • For: Mr Gilbey -1 Mr Quine: Mr President, I beg to move: Against: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, Brown, May, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, That Tynwald is of the opinion that the decision of Braidwood, Kermode, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs the Council of Ministers not to subject planning application Groves, Karran, Corkill, Kniveton, Gelling and the No.95/1572 (Wright's Pit East) to a special inquiry under Speaker - 22 section 1 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1981, is an ill-considered exercise of its statutory discretion. The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys the amendment fails to carry with one vote in favour and 22 I wonder if I will get the same sort of support this time, against. sir! I am aware that in deciding not to subject planning application number 95/1572 - that is, the Wright's Pit East In the Council - application - to a special inquiry the Council of Ministers have exercised a statutory discretion and there is little that For: Mr Radcliffe Tynwald can do to change that situation, at least not in the short term. Tynwald can, however, express a view on Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, whether or not that discretion has been properly and fairly Dr Mann, Mr Luft, Mrs Christian and Mr Delaney - 8 exercised, and I, along with Bride Commissioners and others, hold the view that it has not been properly exercised, The President: Hon. members, in the Council 1 vote and that is the substance of the motion which is before this has been cast in favour of the motion, 8 votes against. The hon. Court. adjournment motion therefore fails to carry. • I recognise the plight, of course, of the government in The Court will now adjourn and the adjournment will seeking additional landfill facilities to meet the short-term be until 2.30, hon. members. need. While I have some sympathy for the present Minister The Court adjourned at 1.03 p.m. for Local Government and the Environment, I must not pretend that that sympathy extends to the administration as a whole, because the problem which they are faced with is largely of their own making. If they are sitting by the SCRUTINY OF GOVERNMENT POLICIES AND side of a hole it is one which they have dug for themselves. ACTIVITIES — DEBATE CONCLUDED — MOTION CARRIED Mr Brown: Oh, after the support we just gave you! (Laughter and interjections) The President: We continue with the debate on item 4 on the order paper. If no-one wishes to speak, the hon. member to reply. Mr Quine: Be that as it may, sir, (Laughter) the situation in which the government has found itself is irrelevant to Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. the substance of this motion. The exercise of a choice between the ordinary planning procedures and the special Mr North: Have you ever seen him have the wind taken planning procedures is not to be influenced by out of his sails? (Laughter) considerations of urgency or expediency, and that is very

Scrutiny of Government Policies and Activities — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried • Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Motion Lost T670 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 clear from reading section 1 of the Town and Country planning inspector in Ballacallow 3, and he took that view, Planning Act 1981. Nonetheless, it will be noted that in upholding, in point of fact, a case being made by the this motion it relates to Wright's Pit East and does not • applicants, by the department in relation to that application embrace Wright's Pit North. I have excluded Wright's Pit where they were saying that this matter was of general North in recognition of the need to meet that very urgent importance to the Island, a matter of strategic importance requirement for additional landfill and, although the same and therefore should not have to measure up to all the principles would be related to Wright's Pit East, I have planning criteria. So they cannot have it both ways. That satisfied myself that really something has to be done, and was their contention then, that was the inspector's I would agree that Wright's Pit North should be judged by conclusion, that was his decision, and I believe that that is the ordinary planning procedure. That is against my better the correct situation. judgement, but it recognises the situation with which we Now, the proposed facility is, without any shadow of are faced. doubt, an all-Island facility and of direct concern to persons Now, whether or not that a planning application is Island-wide. The importance to persons outside of the subject to the ordinary planning procedure as amended for immediate area of the development is self-evident; I do government applications or the special planning procedure not think I need to expand on that. In practical terms the is a matter of considerable importance. With the ordinary Ayres are, you might say, in common ownership and are planning procedure, objections and representations are used by persons from all over the Island, for that reason - confined to persons with 'sufficient interest.' Further, the and from off the Island, for that matter. The area is appointed person's recommendation can be accepted or designated as being of high landscape value and scenic rejected by the Council of Ministers, whose interest in this significance. A government working party has declared it instance, of course, cannot be separated from the applicant, to be an invaluable ecological and amenity resource. This and there is no appeal. That is the situation with an ordinary common ownership and usage as I have just spelled out is planning procedure and it is the situation which the factual. • administration has taken the decision to subject Wright's The expansive use of land or misuse of land designated Pit East to. With the special planning procedure, those as being of high landscape and scenic significance and the wishing to make objections and representations do not have manner in which it has been progressively encroached upon to show sufficient interest. The concept recognises the is also a matter of all-Island interest. Bearing in mind we possible breadth of interest, and I shall demonstrate the are talking about a designation of high landscape value significance of this matter of sufficient interest a little later. and scenic significance, we have had Ballacallow 1, which The parameters of the special inquiry are for the has taken away 11 acres of this land so designated; we inspector to determine - not so with the ordinary planning have had Ballacallow 2 with 11 acres, Ballacallow 3 with procedure, where they are strictly limited. With the special another 10 acres, and in each case the application was planning inquiry there is the scoping report and full promoted as being a one-off event to meet a short-term environmental assessment, and the production of those need, and in each case the appointed person stressed that documents, the production of that information, for the man that was the basis upon which approval was granted. Then in the street, the man without financial resources to enlist there was the unsuccessful attempt to establish a landfill professional advice, is vitally important to him. And, very at Kerrowdhoo. That would have involved 80 acres. Now importantly, while the Council of Ministers can accept or we have Wright's Pit North, 11 acres; Wright's Pit East, reject the appointed person's recommendation arising from 27 acres. This progressive encroachment is into areas a special inquiry, the report must be laid before Tynwald designated as being of high landscape and scenic value and there is provision that it can be annulled by Tynwald and in a manner which is in contradiction with at the next following sitting. There is in substance an appeal government's own policies and the department's own mechanism. Not so with the ordinary planning procedure; planning policies. the last word is with the Council of Ministers; in this The cumulative effects are that over 30 acres of the Ayres • instance their interest is the same as the applicant's. have been mutilated by a creeping and insidious process Now, section 1 of the 1981 Act lays down the criteria with a further 40 acres now in prospect, directly contrary for determining whether a special inquiry is appropriate. to the land zoning and planning development policies. I There should be grounds of general importance to the would submit that this incremental approach - and I am Island which are relevant and require evaluation, but a being charitable in choosing that word - in breach of land proper evaluation thereof cannot be made unless there is a zoning and development policies on such a large scale is special inquiry. That is the key phrase. Now, to my mind clearly a matter of general importance to the Island. Against the planning application for Wright's Pit East and, as I this backdrop, the department should be subjected to the said, for that matter for Wright's Pit North - but I am putting most exacting inquiry, and that must of necessity be a that aside for today - meet that criteria. special inquiry. Then there are the traffic implications for Let me first of all deal with the matter of grounds of towns and villages well beyond Bride, transportation costs general importance to the Island, which is the first affecting local authorities and taxpayers and ratepayers qualifying criterion. As an initial point I can do no better throughout the Island; fuel consumption; the impact on than to quote the inspector in his report on the Ballacallow the environment. It really is quite absurd to suggest that 3 landfill application, and I quote: 'Waste disposal is in these are not matters of general importance to the Island planning terms a strategic matter of all-Island importance.' which are relevant and require evaluation. They most That is not my conclusion; that is the decision of the certainly are. Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T671

This landfill, which is to be an unlined landfill - I hope contradiction! What credence has a planning procedure • hon. members will note that - would be within 90 metres where the last word de facto rests with the applicant? That of the sea. It would be constructed without a protective is what it boils down to. This conflict with various policies barrier to protect it from the sea. The prospect of the sea for this area calls for the adoption of a procedure where breaking through into the landfill over a number of years the final decision does not rest with the Council of is a distinct possibility and furthermore, on two previous Ministers and that procedure can only be a special planning occasions, applications for the extraction of sand and gravel procedure. How can proper evaluation be carried out where from the Wright's Pits, as we refer to them, have been made the final decision rests, in effect, with the applicant and in and they have been refused. The acceptability of such a circumstances where the applicant has publicly conceded development and, more particularly, the associated risks it is vital that they continue to deposit rubbish in this area? are of all-Island concern; I do not believe that that can be Now, hon. members will be aware that the Council of questioned. Just imagine the consequences for the coastal Ministers have - or they may not be aware, but I trust they areas of the Island, not least Ramsey, if we were to have a are a aware - established a precedent for a special inquiry breakthrough from the sea into this landfill. Then there is for this type of application in this area already. That was the matter of the management of minerals in this area and the Kerrowdhoo inquiry in 1993, and in that instance the the consequences of extraction of minerals upon the proposed development was not on land open to the public, environment of the Ayres. These are matters of importance which this is, did not raise the possibility of the to Island residents as a whole, and the form of inquiry development being breached from the sea, and the proposal should offer the residents of the Island unfettered involved a lined landfill. So in those circumstances it was representation in relation to any application for considered appropriate that we should have a special development in this area. planning inquiry, but in relation to the present application • However, this is not to be. The residents of Bride village for Wright's Pit East it is considered that it is inappropriate. have been denied participation in the planning inquiry But inappropriate is not the right word - I will come back because it has been determined that they do not have to this later when I am summing up; it is inexpedient, and sufficient interest. All the vehicles go through Bride village, that is why we have arrived at this decision. but they do not have sufficient interest! The Society for There is no doubt in my mind that the proposed the Preservation of the Countryside have been, using their development at Wright's Pit East should be subject to a word, locked out of the proceedings, and are rightly, of special inquiry. Unquestionably the proposed development course, agrieved that they should be excluded. The Isle of comes within section 1 of the 1981 Act. Without doubt Man Angling Federation, with their longstanding interest persons with a legitimate interest in this development will in fishing in the sea off Wright's Pit East - they do not be prejudiced by not having access to a special inquiry. have sufficient interest, they have been excluded, because Not only will they be prejudiced by not having access to the ordinary planning procedure has been applied. it, I think it should be noted that, even if they were to have Basically, if you do not live next to the tip, you do not access, the fact is that this inquiry is going to be held in have sufficient interest. That appears to be the criterion Douglas, completely away from the area and the people applied. People living in Ramsey, in the Bowring Road who are concerned with this application. and Grove Mount areas of Ramsey which are subjected to the passage of many of the heavy goods vehicles in Mr Kermode: Nice place, though! question, have been told that they do not have sufficient interest. Their representations were accepted in relation to Mr Quine: The Council of Ministers' statutory Kerrowdhoo, just across the road a few yards away. They discretion was exercised in an ill-considered manner, and were accepted at a special inquiry as having sufficient that is the nub of the motion which is before you. And the • interest then, but not on this occasion, for the simple reason nub of the motion is this also: whether, having regard to that this decision has been taken not to apply the special that fact, the members of this hon. Court want to be a party inquiry procedure. Some 30, at least - the letter I have here to that decision. Yes, this application relates to the area - people living in Ramsey believe that they have been which I represent. That is not the point in issue; it is whether wrongly excluded from this inquiry. or not the statutory discretion has been exercised in an ill- If we may now turn to the matter of whether a proper considered and inconsistent manner, and I submit it has evaluation can be carried out without recourse to the special and I submit that the facts I have given to you establish planning procedures, the proposed development is in that quite clearly. This motion really puts to hon. members: conflict with Tynwald, government and DoLGE policies do they wish to be party to what has taken place? Do they for this area. The Island's strategic plan North-East B, wish to be associated with what has taken place, this Planning Circular 1491, the government working party decision by the Council of Ministers? Mr President, I beg report on the Ayres, and there is a whole list of other rules to move the motion standing in my name. and regulations which have been listed in the earlier applications by Bride Commissioners and myself - this Mr Delaney: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. application and the earlier applications are in breach of those orders and regulations. Now, how do these breaches Mr Walker: Mr President, the hon. member for Ayre, stand up against a policy statement, as part of government's Mr Quine, is right. The Council of Ministers did consider policy, calling for rigorous enforcement by government to the question of calling in these applications for a special protect the unspoilt nature of this area? A complete inquiry as set out in legislation after receiving a request 111 Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Motion Lost T672 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

from him to do just that. In his letter dated 26th January to with refuse at this stage and, by using this inquiry, would myself the hon. member Mr Quine suggested that we subvert a proper inquiry. • should consider for special inquiry the applications for both It is worth saying that there is little difference in an of the areas that he has mentioned - that is, Wright's Pit inquiry on a significant DoLGE application such as this North and Wright's Pit East. Interestingly enough, the hon. and a special inquiry, which the hon. member was member is only referring now to Wright's Pit East. He says requesting. Both are subject to an inquiry conducted by an that is in deference to the situation that government finds independent inspector, and the same panel of inspectors is itself in, that he recognises there is a need for landfill and used when choosing an inspector for either of these cases. so he is accepting, I think, that Wright's Pit North could Both are the subject of an independent report and be dealt with in a different way to Wright's Pit East. That recommendation from the inspector. In both cases all the is not what he suggested in his letter and that is not how issues will need to be addressed and the inspector will need the Council of Ministers considered the particular to be satisfied that the department's application is sound resolution that was in front of them. I think it is right to in all respects, and in both cases the inspector reports to consider both of these areas on the same basis and not the Council of Ministers. Of course, the hon. member Mr discount one because of perhaps the exceptional need of Quine is right when he says that after a special inquiry government at the moment. there is a formal procedure in which the results of the Perhaps I would suggest it is the weakness of the case inquiry are laid before Tynwald and there is an opportunity that has been put forward by the hon. member for Ayre for Tynwald to formally object to the decision of the that he in fact did not pursue Wright's Pit North in the Council of Ministers. That is laid down in law. When we same way as he is pursuing Wright's Pit East, and I think did consider this matter I came to the conclusion that, if it is worthwhile informing this hon. Court that Wright's the Council of Ministers were going to come to a decision Pit North is about 11 acres in size and would provide which was at variance with the inspector's capacity for about 18 months of tipping refuse. It is a recommendations, I would bring that matter to Tynwald • modest scale of operation and it is quite similar in size to for discussion on the floor of this hon. Court. It seemed to the other three phases of Ballacallow that the hon. member me a fair response to the letter that Mr Quine had sent to has referred to and which have been approved by normal us and, in fairness, an application which is of interest to methods. It was decided by the Council of Ministers that hon. members. on those grounds there was no case for dealing with The issues which need to be looked at by an inspector Wright's Pit North differently to the other planning are the same in these instances as they were for the applications that had gone before. Ballacallow applications: traffic, air, water pollution, visual Wright's Pit East is also a gravel pit. It covers about 28 amenity, environmental degradation and so on; they are acres and would provide capacity for about 41/2 years' use all matters very pertinent, matters which will be raised and for the Island's refuse. I would suggest - and one of the matters which will be considered by an inspector. considerations the Council of Ministers bore in mind - was The hon. member Mr Quine suggested that by using in fact that Kerrowdhoo was called in; that was 77 acres normal planning procedures, the Society for the and it was proposed that that site be in use for a period in Preservation of the Countryside would be excluded. I do excess of 20 years, a significantly different situation than not understand why. The Society for the Preservation of that for which the department is applying for Wright's Pit the Countryside's views are considered by the planning East. committee many times a year when they write in with their The other three applications at Ballacallow which have views to the planning committee when they are considering been referred to and which have been approved have been various applications put in by members of the public as in the approximate area between 9.5 acres and 11.5 acres well as government departments themselves. He suggested in size. Again, Kerrowdhoo, which was subject to a special that people in Bride village would be excluded. Again, it inquiry, was significantly different to any of those. • would seem to me that if it was a planning application by I do not believe that the size of Wright's Pit East alone a private company in this area of the land then the Planning warrants it to be called in as a special planning inquiry. I Committee would be competent and right to take into do not believe that its proximity to the sea, as mentioned account the views of the people in Bride over the traffic by the hon. member Mr Quine - and it is certainly a situation. That would seem to me, as a member who has geographical situation that we accept - is in itself is a case had some experience on the Planning Committee, to be in for a special inquiry. accord with the usual parameters. So I do not accept - or I Again, Mr Quine, when he was moving this resolution, cannot understand, perhaps would be fairer - without more stated the legislation against which we have to operate, explanation from the hon. member how he feels that a and I would just like to repeat the part of the legislation number of people will be excluded. Now, certainly a that allows the Council of Ministers discretion. It is Where planning inspector or a Planning Committee under normal there are considerations of general importance to the Island circumstances takes into account those people who are which are relevant and which require evaluation, but a affected, and the attitude of the Planning Committee or proper evaluation thereof cannot be made unless there is a planning inspector may be wide and it may be narrow. special inquiry for the purpose.' It is quite specific, and There is no doubt at all, with matters such as this, I would that is the resolution to which the Council of Ministers suggest, that there would be a wide interpretation because paid attention. It was not part of that debate that the of the interest and because of the people locally who will Department of Local Government had a particular problem be affected. Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T673

If the concern is that this hon. Court will not have an So, yes, the Planning Committee do deal with things in opportunity to consider the issue in detail, I hope I have a manner that puzzles you at times, regretfully, and I know • they deal with many difficult situations, but in the end given the assurance that if the Council of Ministers come to a decision other than that recommended by the Planning consistency has to show through. That is important. That Committee I would be very happy - in fact I will give a is the basis of the democratic system, and I would have commitment - to bring that matter forward to this hon. thought on this occasion, and recognising... and if for Court. Nevertheless, there will be a resolution in the name reasons of not using the special inquiry and because of the of the Department of Local Government looking for a urgency, then I think, if urgency has a case and is on the sizeable capital vote to put this landfill operation into place, minds of the Council of Ministers - and indeed it is, we and there will be an opportunity then for members of will recognise that, but whether it is urgency to override Tynwald to decide whether they agree or disagree with other laid-down procedures and the rights of people, well the proposals that are in the minds of the department. then, perhaps that case should be put fair and square to So I would suggest that the Council of Ministers used Tynwald Court and to say, 'That is the problem we have their discretion quite properly. We considered the matters got'. We have all got an interest in it. We all contribute to very carefully that it seemed to us were important and it. Now, if that is the case, then that case should be put relevant; we used our discretion; we came to a conclusion. fairly and squarely but it should not be the rights of people, That conclusion does not bypass or sidestep a debate in as was outlined by the mover, where letters have been sent this hon. Court. That will happen as a matter in due course to them saying, 'You have no near interest,' and I think and, Mr President, I would just ask hon. members to bear that is the basis of the plea today and I think that is to be what I have said in mind and oppose the resolution that is regretted. on the agenda paper. So even at this stage I would ask the Chief Minister to consider the stance he has taken and perhaps there is a • Mr Corrin: Mr President, I am more than a little legitimate case here to be answered. concerned at some of the remarks that have come from the Chief Minister in his address. He took to task the mover as Mr Delaney: Very briefly, Mr President, the situation to why the mover was prepared not to make his protest is that there are two parts of this which are very important. and enjoin Wright's Pit North, as indeed he made with Any member here who thinks it will not matter to him Wright's Pit East. Now, I would have thought, by any how he votes on this or if he just lets it wash over him is stretch of the imagination, the Chief Minister would have joking, because if you read the 1981 Act, any constituency accepted that the mover did say, and I quote his words, represented in this Court - and the whole Island is `against his better judgement', but he was trying to be represented - can be subject to the same procedure as was realistic in this world that there is pressure on to dump the adopted on Wright's Pit East or North. So do not think that rubbish somewhere. So he was not going to push his case this is a one-off. There is a tendency, once established, to that extent even though it was against his better that the scheme of things will be used again and again in judgement, knowing that his case would probably have any of your constituencies, and that is what members been stronger had he done so, but he admitted that and it is should keep in mind. hardly worthy, then, to throw that back in his face. The second thing which I want to bring to members' Now, there is a difference between Wright's Pit East attention and which surprised me somewhat is the Chief and, say, Kerroodhoo. Indeed, the mover pointed out there Minister indicated that maybe the time to vote against this is a difference between pit east and pit north, and that is is when the financial resolution arrives on your tables. I the threat from the sea, and it is a real threat. Once that would suggest to him that that would be wrong, because I rubbish is put there, then that is it, it could end up in the am sure that any member speaking on what is involved in sea in due course. I would have thought the Chief Minister this resolution today who was to raise the items of the • planning procedure during that debate could very quickly would have had a little bit more leadership to show as far as the democratic system is concerned, to uphold and be be called out of line under standing orders as it is a financial consistent in the law and the planning, to allow people to resolution he will be talking about, not the planning have their say. It is true what the mover said about the decision. So if they throw that at you, I believe the Chief Minister is wrong. You are waiting, then, until the horse is Planning Committee writing letters saying 'You have no half way down the road before you decide to stop it. In near interest.' I can give an example. There was a planning this case, this resolution is purely a matter of concern for application at the Shore Hotel for a rugby football pitch. the members on the procedure adopted. There is nobody Our hon. colleague, Mr Cringle, was busy making in this Court more than myself, as a past minister, who representation on behalf of some people living there and knows the desperate situation that was coming to us and he lives at Ballabeg. I got a letter. I did not make any that now we have arrived at. The member for Ayre has representation at all to the committee. I was surprised to been courteous enough to point out in his opening remarks get a letter from the Planning Committee saying that I the reality that he is prepared to face and others in this would be excluded because I had no near interest, and I Court have had to face of what we do with our refuse until had not even registered any interest! That is how these we get the decision on the long-term strategy and we get confetti letters can be sent about as the mover has pointed the modus operandi in being. So to say that he has somehow out, and presumably what he is saying is true. I would not let down his own case by not pursuing both of these sites doubt he would be prepared to back his words up. is totally innocuous. You cannot have it both ways; if a • Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Motion Lost T674 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 member stands up and prepares to accept that there is some inquiry procedure applying to both sites, and I have discretion he sees necessary, and he has not pursued the explained that quite openly here today. The Minister for whole cake but sees an argument for at least half of it, do Local Government and the Environment was good enough • not throw the other half back at him and condemn him to meet with me just before Christmas and we discussed a because he is not using all the ammunition he could use. number of these issues in considerable detail; I know what There is no condemnation that the ministers were not the time frame is. I know what the plight of the government entitled to use this method. It is there in the 1981 Act, but is in trying to find some facility for a continuation of tipping what is being said quite clearly is, in this case, bearing in after the September deadline or whatever it turns out to mind the problems and the way the problems of the Ayres be. I am aware of that but, as I said here today, the criteria have been positioned in the past and the matters and the in terms of the principles employed are the same in respect way other planning inquiries affecting this area were of both sites, so I do not see how I am in any way weakening undertaken, in this case experience of politics overrode my stand in respect to Wright's Pit East by not including the rights of certain people in the area, including the people Wright's Pit North in this motion. I am trying to provide in Bowring Road, who have continuously written to me some accommodation and, quite clearly, that and other members of this Court on their objections to accommodation is not appreciated by the Council of what was going on in traffic, and their situation could be Ministers. likened to anybody in your constituency who is affected I would also say that in respect of this issue of whether by a planning matter in the future. So if you ignore this it should be one or two or whatever, when I met with the you will not be able to stand up at some time in the future Minister for Local Government and the Environment prior and say `Ah well, this is all wrong, the way this has been to Christmas, on 19th December, I think is was, he very done under the 1981 Act,' because you will be saying to kindly produced all the plans and we discussed this at some the government, whoever that might be, and the ministers, length and I made the point to him then that I thought it `This is all right by us, this is the proper road and to use was wrong to approach these planning applications by • this sort of method.' anything other than a special planning inquiry and I referred Incineration sites, I am looking across at the members him to the precedence for that, and I thought, when I left now, and future tip sites could find themselves exactly his office I had a degree of support expressed for the views under this, so do not judge just because it is the member that I had put to him. Whether or not that is the case - for Ayre and his problem and his constituency. He has because I appreciate this is a Council of Ministers decision shown his mettle in fighting cases in the past, and what he - is something I cannot judge. So that is the first point is asking for in this case is that he should have a level made by the Chief Minister that I would like to respond playing field as a representative of the people on which to to. play this particular game. That was taken away from him Secondly - and this I cannot believe - he tries to suggest and the people he represents, and the people of Ramsey, to us that in substance there is no difference between a those people affected. special planning inquiry and an ordinary planning inquiry. I hope members will support this, regardless of what There is a world of difference, and I thought that I had they have been told might have happened by the Chief spelt that out in some detail. In the first case, of course, if Minister. He might have brought it forward, that is all fine, it is a special planning inquiry we are talking of an open, but we did not know that and indeed the member of Ayre, public inquiry; we are not talking of a process behind closed I am sure, did not know it. What was in the Chief Minister's doors. He also went on to say,' Oh well, people's views mind is right and proper and it is his knowledge and maybe can be taken into account.' What hope have they to test other people's knowledge in the Council of Ministers, but the evidence that has been put before the inquiry if they that is not what occurred on this occasion and that is what do not have right of representation at the inquiry? That is matters: what did occur and could occur to you. the fundamental difference. In any court, I would suggest, in any administrative or legal tribunal you should have a • The President: I call on the mover to reply. right of representation if you have an interest and you are entitled to test the evidence which the tribunal has been Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. Could I first of asked to received and take a decision on, and to suggest all just remind members what I suggest is the nub of the that there is no difference because in one case you have motion? The nub of the motion is whether or not statutory that right of access to test the evidence and in the other discretion exercised by the Council of Ministers has been case you do not, I think, is totally absurd. So therefore I exercised in an ill-considered manner. I would ask hon. would stress again that this matter of sufficient interest or members to bear that in mind. I am not trying to reverse not is a key feature and a matter that should be taken into anything; I cannot reverse anything. I am asking this Court consideration and it should feature very high in the to take a decision on whether the manner in which that consideration that is being taken. So there is a world of statutory discretion was exercised was done in a fair and difference, and I had rather hoped I had spelt that all out open and proper manner. So I ask them to bear that in right through to the stage where in one, in practical terms, mind first of all. you have an appeal process with the final decision being Secondly, coming to Mr Walker's contribution, first of taken outside of the circles where you have the government all he has suggested here today that in some way I have interest and in the other procedure you do not. So it really weakened my case by not coupling to this motion, as I did is quite absurd to suggest that there is, in substance, no in my letter to the Chief Minister, the question of the special difference between these two procedures. There is a very Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T675

great difference and I suspect it is that very great difference to the very real prospect of the sea breaking through into which has influenced the Council of Ministers in taking this project if it were to go ahead, and I think that is such the decision which they have taken. an important consideration that I would have thought that Now, again he has not really provided an answer to the that alone would have led the Council of Ministers, had information I put before you showing that the they approached this matter in an objective fashion, to circumstances applicable to Wright's Pit East fit the two conclude that only a special inquiry was appropriate in criteria in section 1 of the 1981 Town and Country Planning these circumstances, but they brushed that aside because Act - that is, the grounds of general importance and, expediency is the order of the day. secondly, that could not otherwise be properly be evaluated. This is really a quite straightforward issue, to my mind. I spelt that out in considerable detail and that has not been The question is, did the Council of Ministers exercise their responded to, so I must assume that that is accepted by the statutory discretion in an ill-considered manner? I say they Chief Minister. He has, of course, referred to the fact that have. Why do I say they have? I say they have because the `Oh, you know, Kerrowdhoo was quite different,' and he circumstances attached to Wright's Pit East are such that has gone on to explain how, if you look at the Wright's Pit they dictated no lesser standard of inquiry for this type of East, there is really not very much to that although it can application, and I hope I have established to this hon. Court break through to the sea, et cetera; he has pushed that all that if you related to the precedent of Kerrowdhoo, more aside and tried to suggest to us this has been taken in a importantly, perhaps, if we related to the precedent of wholly objective fashion, which it has not. Let me ask the Poortown Quarry, they can see there is at best a wholly Chief Minister, if that is the case, how then does he arrive inconsistent approach that has been taken in respect of at the decision which they did arrive at in relation to the Wright's Pit East and it has been taken for purposes, I Poortown Quarry? Now, we were talking of an application suggest, of expediency and urgency. there which was, quite frankly, a penny-farthing application There is overpowering evidence to establish that the and we were talking of an application which related to criteria under section 1 of the 1981 Town and Country quarrying in an area where quarrying has taken place for Planning Act have been met and met fully. There is no 90 years. We were referring to an excavation of six acres question of that not having been established. It is also quite only. We were not talking of the pollution prospects that clearly established that it is not feasible to have a proper are in prospect here for Wright's Pit East. evaluation done unless we make recourse to the special inquiry procedure because we are talking about an Mrs Hannan: How do you know? application in respect of which the applicant and the Council of Ministers are essentially one and the same party Mr Quine: Because I have got the report, madam. and it is a main plank of government policy. (Laughter) And we were certainly not talking about the Presentationally, in terms of justice being done and being marginal traffic and transport problems - quite different, seen to be done, it really should be a procedure that allows and yet in that case - surprise, surprise - that has to be a this hon. Court to have the last word, and that is not what special inquiry. Why, Mr President? I would suggest the will happen now. What is going to happen now is that we answer lies in respect of the interested parties, a list of are going through a truncated inquiry procedure, people very influential people living in that area - with legitimate interests are going to be excluded from the inquiry, and even those who will be granted access to or Mr Delaney: All lawyers! representation at the inquiry will not have the benefit of, first of all, input to the scoping report and, secondly, to the Mr Quine: And I would suggest to you that that is the environmental statements upon which they can muster their difference between a decision by the Council of Ministers case, because they do not have the financial resources to to exercise a special inquiry procedure for the Poortown provide professional evidence to make their own case. They Quarry and not to exercise it in respect of Wright's Pit are going to be deprived of that. East, plus the added consideration that of course the Mr President, I honestly believe that the Council of Council of Ministers have taken into consideration the Ministers are badly wrong in the way that they have matter of expediency and urgency which have nothing to exercised their discretion in this case. I believe I know do with section 1 of the 1981 Town and Country Planning why they have exercised it in this fashion and it is wholly Act. inconsistent with the precedence that I have quoted to you. The Chief Minister has said that, of course, these matters I would ask hon. members to take a decision now: do they will eventually come before Tynwald Court and we will wish to be a party to what has taken place? Do they wish have an opportunity to express our views and debate this to support that and go on record as being a party to that matter when it comes before Tynwald for the funding of process or do they wish to stand apart from it, which is the project. That has nothing to do with this at all. The what the bottom line of my motion is? Mr President, I beg planning procedure and the planning permission will then to move. have already been established. That is no compensation whatsoever and is completely irrelevant. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution I thank Mr Corrin for a number of the points that he standing at item 5 on the order paper. Will those in favour made in his submission. He quite rightly, of course, pointed please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.

Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Motion Lost T676 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: have been fighting to have it brought back to Tynwald. Representatives of this association have put their case to In the Keys - • the Chairman of the Board of Consumer Affairs, Mr Kermode MHK, and have applauded his actions in agreeing For: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, Corrin, Cretney, to take the order back to the April sitting of Tynwald. The Duggan, Braidwood, Kermode, Bell, Kniveton and the association appreciates that there was a very poor response Speaker - 11 to the surveys carried out by the board and can understand why Mr Kermode and the. board believed there was no Against: Messrs Gilbey, North, Walker, Cringle, Brown, support for the order' - May, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Corkill and Gelling - 9 A Member: No, no, no! The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys the motion carries with 11 votes in favour and 9 against. Mr Groves: Poor things! (Laughter)

In the Council - Mr Brown: Who wrote that for you?

For: The Lord Bishop, Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe and Mr Kermode: This is quite serious, hon. members. Delaney - 4 Mrs Hannan: We thought so last time. Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Luft and Mrs Christian - 5 Mr Kermode: 'Only the association responded to a letter sent out by the board to over 800 retail premises in The President: In the Council 4 votes have been cast December last year seeking views on the possible • in favour of the resolution and 5 votes against the amendment of the legislation governing Sunday trading. resolution; the resolution fails to carry. The legislation has created many anomalies, and although the order removed some of the ill effects for the summer Mr Quine: Mr President, may I give notice that I shall season, the only answer is to review the legislation. The bring this matter back for a combined vote at the next sitting association welcomes the board's decision to carry out such of Tynwald? a review in the coming months and urges those involved in the retail industry to make their views known.' The The President: Certainly, sir. Thank you. board, not Phil Kermode, considered the comments by the association and, although there are only a limited number of categories of retailers covered by the order, there are SHOPS ACT (TEMPORARY EXEMPTION) within those categories a small number of retailers who ORDER 1996 — APPROVED would wish to open any time on a Sunday for the summer season. These particular retailers are dependent on the The President: Item 6 on the order paper, hon. ability to open all day on a Sunday during certain weeks members. I call upon the hon. Mr Kermode, Douglas East. of the summer season, for example TT fortnight and Grand Prix week, to ensure their viability all the year round. The Mr Kermode: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Castle Street Traders Association are, however, still firmly of the view that the present Shops Act 1985 needs That the Shops Act (Temporary Exemption) Order reviewing and the anomalies therein addressed, which is 1996 be approved. confirmed on a number of occasions by the Lord Bishop. • There are some members here today who will agree Members will recall at the previous sitting I moved but with one of the articles in the local newspaper which did not support the Shops Act (Temporary Exemption) commented, and I quote 'A bid to extend Sunday shop Order 1996. The order would have enabled clothing, opening hours has seen Chairman of the Board of footwear and sports goods shops to open at any time on a Consumer Affairs, Phil Kermode MHK, execute more Sunday throughout the summer season. I was subsequently twists than a supermarket shopping trolley.' (Members: approached by representatives of the Castle Street Traders Hear, hear!) (Laughter) If you come out on Saturday night Association who stated, irrespective of their views I will be doing a few more! This is a U-turn by the board expressed in their letter which I read to the hon. members, and in particular myself. I have brought the order back to there are within their association a limited number of Tynwald because I believe in listening to the people retailers who require the order to enable them to open on a (Members: Ho!) (Laughter) which includes traders as well Sunday outside the hours stipulated in the Shops Act 1985. as consumers, and before the hon. member for Castletown Following this representation, the association issued the makes similar comments to those he made at the March following press release: 'The order allowing clothing, sitting, yes, Castle Street is in my constituency, but the footwear and sports goods shops to open at any time on traders do not necessarily have a vote in that area. Sundays throughout the summer season was rejected last week in Tynwald. The Castle Street Traders Association Mr Brown: Shame! (Laughter) Shops Act (Temporary Exemption) Order 1996 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T677

Mr Kermode: Some may even live in Castletown - change the whole thing round. Now I, in sticking to my they will know who they will be voting for down there! principles, want to reiterate what I have said over the couple • At the very least there was a healthy debate on the issue of years in this Court: I am not here to defend God - he can of Sunday trading and the annual introduction of the order speak for himself. I am also not defending the Church; and the way that this was perceived by members. that will take its own place in competition with the market I firmly believe that policy should be flexible, as the place itself. Nor am I speaking about the defence of Sunday hon. member for Ayre has just pointed out to us. Legislation entirely. I am, in fact, speaking on behalf of people. has been described as a frozen policy and this is why it is (Members: Hear, hear.) So I would hope that many paramount that, given these recent events, a permanent members of this hon. Court would be thinking of doing solution is found. The board is therefore proposing to the same. I am concerned for the well being of shopkeepers establish a sub-committee, which could include in their daily business and also in their recreational and, representatives from the retail sector, to discuss proposals dare I say, spiritual well-being. for the reform of the Shops Act 1985, and I have received I took the trouble in Holy Week to go around various assurances from the Chief Minister that the Council of shops some of the emporiums and some of the smaller Ministers will support the introduction of a new Shops shops. I did not, hon. members, see vast queues of people Bill if it is found to be necessary after the review and that flooding into shops to buy things. The Easter weekend trade there is a provision for such a Bill in the 1996-97 legislative was average, but not considerable. I spoke to one of the programme. floor managers of a large store and said to him, 'I hope Once again I leave members to consider my comments. you have a good weekend.' He said 'We are open all the I make no apologies. We made the stand at the Board of time.' Now, hon. members, I find that very indefensible, Consumer Affairs; we had a point to prove; I think we that a shop can open seven days a week, including the have proved that point. At the end of the day we will public holidays, the holydays, whatever you want to call • achieve, I am sure, what the Lord Bishop wants and many them. It seems to me intolerable that there is any defence other members in this hon. Court regarding shops' hours, made for any emporium having to open seven days a week and everybody knows, as far as we are concerned, that the when they really were not deluged with personnel wanting time has come when a proper Shops Act is debated in this to shop. hon. Court and in another place. I therefore beg to move, I am also worried for the integrity of this Court. If we Mr President. make a decision after one reasonably fair debate I find it difficult that it should be overturned for less than worthy Mr Kniveton: Mr President, I beg to second, sir, and reasons. I am sorry that the hon. member has seen fit to reserve my remarks. come back in this way with this motion. It is up to us again to make a decision, but I just plead, hon. members, for the Members: Oh! word 'integrity' to be used in our dealings in this Court.

Mr Cannan: Shame on you! (Interjections and The President: The hon. member to reply. laughter) Mr Kermode: Well, Mr President, the Lord Bishop The Lord Bishop: I am very grateful to the hon. mentioned shooting and if you fire low you will always member for so gallantly nailing his colours to the floor. hit the target. It seems sad, though, that the Lord Bishop, (Laughter) There is a very good text that you can take when I am supporting his views and putting forward his away with you: 'Those who aim low seldom miss.' views, should stand up there and congratulate me and say (Laughter) I am, in fact, quite sorry for the hon. member, how worthy it is of me, and suddenly, when I oppose his because at our last session he was magnificent! He stood views, I am shooting below the belt. I do not think that is glowing with enthusiasm and richeous indignation on the worthy of integrity either. I believe that we have achieved... part of the Consumer Affairs and he rode under the banner and I have it in Hansard here, on a number of occasions of integrity, and he rode through the ranks of the Council where the Lord Bishop has said, 'We want a proper Shops of Ministers with great words of finesse and determination. Act debated in this hon. Court.' He has said it in every debate in which I have put this order forward. It is here on Dr Mann: That is all finished now! record and, as far as I am concerned, the protest that we have made has achieved just that. He is going to achieve The Lord Bishop: How are the mighty fallen! I do feel it. I hope that we never have to bring an order such as this a little concerned for him, because of course I am free to this hon. Court again, that we will carry out a full from an election process and I do not get intimidated by investigation and have proper legislation - liberalisation members making me change my mind, and so I am here to or not, whatever it may be - regarding shopping in the Isle stick to my guns and I am also here to ask Tynwald Court of Man. to do the same. When you say you are speaking on behalf of the people, It is, to me, intolerable that you can run some sort of Lord Bishop, I have to say to you that for someone who government by being intimidated by people when you have does not have to appear before the people every five years made a decision after fair debate, after considerable I think we can speak for the people or we try to speak on conversation and discussion, and then for various less than behalf of the people, when often we can and take the views worthy reasons you come back with another motion to of the people into consideration, and I do know there are a

• Shops Act (Temporary Exemption) Order 1996 — Approved T678 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 few people that go shopping, but nevertheless the people That the Coroners Fees Order 1996 be approved in the Isle of Man have a choice. It is for them to make that choice whether they go to Church or whether they go Section 5, sub-section (1) of the Coroners Act 1983 • shopping or whether they go horse riding or to the garden provides that the deemsters may, after consultation with centres or wherever in the Isle of Man; it is for those people Treasury, by order prescribe the fees to be charged by and they will decide at the end of the day whether or not coroners in the exercise, execution of any function or shops will open. I also will make a plea for the shopping obligation vested by any enactment or otherwise. staff, the people who work in these establishments, when Subsection (2) of section 5 provides that an order made looking at this legislation. They have also got to be under subsection (1) shall not come into operation unless considered so that we do introduce legislation that will it has been approved by Tynwald. say they do not want to work, they do not have to and will The Coroners Fees Order 1996 sets out the fees which not be forced into that situation. I will go along with that coroners may charge relevant to the exercise or execution too. of certain of their functions as more particularly set forth As I have said, hon. members, I am not going to make in the schedule to the order. Coroners' fees are usually any apologies for what we did. The Board of Consumer reviewed every two years, the last review being in March Affairs made a stand. It was a stand that was appreciated 1994. The order before this hon. Court proposes to increase at the time by some and deplored by others, and now today the present fees by the rate of inflation since April 1994, the very people who were applauding that stand - or the based on an estimate provided by the Economic Affairs one person who applauded that stand - is now deploring Division of Treasury with slight adjustment where the action of today. That is politics, but I make no apologies appropriate. There is one exception in that fee number 1 for making a U-turn. I think from time to time hon. has been increased above the rate of inflation to bring such ministers and members of this hon. Court and departments fee up to a realistic level relevant to the work involved. from time to time should look at themselves; when you Except where the fees relate to duties concerned with a • have done something and you feel there has been another jury, all fees are payable by the plaintiff, petitioner, case made and you want to change your mind, I feel you defendant, judgement creditor or other appropriate third should be big enough to change your mind. party. Mr President, I beg to move.

Mr Cretney: Just look at the incinerator. Mr Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.

Mr Kermode: Just look at the incinerator, yes. So, Mr Mrs Hannan: If I could just ask the Attorney-General: President, I will move this order and I do say I will be is any study carried out with regard to the working of the supporting and the Board of Consumer Affairs will be coroners? Is there any documentation as to the court orders supporting it today on this occasion because I feel we have that are delivered to people to make sure that they are made the protest. I beg to move. actually delivered to the people named on the court orders? I am just concerned that we are increasing the pay of The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution coroners when in actual fact they are deemed to be so busy set out at item 6 on the order paper. Will those in favour that they cannot serve individual orders of the court, and I please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. just wondered if there was any possibility of being able to follow it to make sure that the court orders were served on A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: the correct people? For: Messrs Rodan, North, Walker, Brown, May, Crowe, The President: Do you wish to reply, sir? Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Kermode, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Corkill, Kniveton, Gelling and The Attorney-General: Mr President, there are two or • Delaney - 17 three things, if I may: first of all, the fees order related to the fees which coroners charge - the method of service Against: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Corrin, Cringle, can be specifically prescribed by the court. They can require the Speaker, the Lord Bishop, Messrs Barton, Waft, Dr a particular order or whatever to be personally served or Mann, Messrs Radcliffe, Luft and Mrs Christian - 13 otherwise the court may be satisfied by other methods of service; for example, service on a body corporate at a The President: Hon. members, the resolution carries, registered office is good service. The court will be satisfied with 17 votes being cast in favour of the resolution and 13 by a certificate of proof of service provided by the coroner. votes against the resolution. Even where you have actions such as default actions where there may not be personal appearances before the court, the coroners complete a certificate of service to indicate CORONERS FEES ORDER 1996 —APPROVED how the default action was served and thereby effected. If the court is not satisfied that the service was effected under The President: Item 7 and I call upon the learned a recognised manner, which in normal circumstances would Attorney-General. mean it would come to the attention of the appropriate party, then the court may say there has been bad service The Attorney-General: Mr President, I beg to move: and the proceedings will have to start again. It must be Coroners Fees Order 1996 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T679

admitted that where one introduces a benchmark or the Island based on a single acute general hospital in a • standard procedure, there may now and again be those central location, to be supported by the provision of minor which are not served in time, but they then can make surgical and non-acute services in local settings. The application to the court to set aside. I trust that assists the refurbishment of Dalmeny, which is rapidly nearing hon. member, Mr President, and I would beg to move. completion, will provide for many significant improvements in service in the northern area and it will The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution also create much needed space within the existing building set out at item 7 on the order paper. Will those in favour for both the medical records and physiotherapy please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes departments. Each of the service improvements is in line have it. with the strategy determined by Tynwald in July 1991 for the development of health and community services in the Isle of Man, and they will in turn lead to greatly enhanced RAMSEY COTTAGE HOSPITAL — community services for the north of the Island. MECHANICAL AND ELECTRICAL SERVICES — In seeking to progress the strategy before hon. members EXPENDITURE APPROVED — today, the department had regard for a full review of the mechanical and electrical services within the hospital ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF GENEROUS DONATION originally undertaken by the Mersey Regional Design Group, and subsequently confirmed by Messrs Hoare, Lea The President: Item 8, the Minister for Health and and Partners as part of the design team, of the need to Social Security. bring these antiquated and outdated services up to modern- day standards. The services which require to be replaced Mr May: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: are detailed in the brief circulated to hon. members and • they include mechanical, radiators and water systems with That Tynwald - low-pressure hot water, ventilation services, medical gases and manifolds, modification of boiler systems. Electrical (a) approves of the Department of Health and Social services include low voltage wiring and switch gear, Security incurring expenditure not exceeding lighting systems, general power supply, fire alarms, f1,087,650 for Replacement of Mechanical and communication systems and lightning protection. Electrical Services at Ramsey Cottage Hospital; The project will take about 12 months to complete and it will also involve the total removal of all asbestos from (b) acknowledges with grateful thanks the generosity the hospital complex. With the requirement to keep the of the Ramsey and District Cottage Hospital Welfare hospital operational during the work period it is, of course, Trustees in providing the funds to build a new inevitable that there will be some disruption to the hospital, Operating Theatre suite at Ramsey Cottage Hospital which of necessity will entail a degree of decanting of and supports the endorsement of the proposal by patient areas. During this period every effort will be made the Department of Health and Social Security. to keep this disruption to a minimum, and I trust that the people of the North will accept that this work is being This resolution, which seeks the authority to proceed undertaken in the long-term interest of the hospital and of with the total upgrade of mechanical and electrical services the services which it provides. within Ramsey Cottage Hospital, will be progressed in As I stated earlier, as part of this scheme and with the conjunction with the provision of a completely new full co-operation of the trustees of the hospital we shall be operating theatre for the hospital, the cost of which, some providing a replacement operating theatre built to the highest standard together with associated accommodation, £1,149,400, is being most generously financed out of funds • and I trust that this development will be viewed as being a provided for the purpose by the trustees of the hospital. major commitment to the continued provision of quality This magnificent gesture, which is very much appreciated care in the north of the Island as well as being a clear by the department, not only reflects the generosity of the indication of the long-term security of Ramsey Cottage people of the north of the Island towards the maintenance Hospital. of the higher standards of health care for their community, The main contractor for the project will be Jarvis (Isle but also provides a clear indication of the value placed of Man) Ltd and the mechanical and electrical services upon the hospital, and the services which it provides, by will be undertaken by the local companies of Manx the entire local population. By undertaking the two projects Plumbing and Heating Ltd and Brew and Corkill Ltd. at the same time we will be able to minimise the disruptive This project marks a further significant investment in effects of the developments as much as is humanly possible the north of the Island, which, together with the recent and ensure that Ramsey Cottage Hospital will continue to upgrading of Dalmeny, will provide enormous benefits for play a central part in the delivery of health care in the north the future, and I would take this opportunity of once again of the Island for the long-term future. expressing our most sincere appreciation to the Trustees This resolution is the first of a number of resolutions of Ramsey Cottage Hospital for their magnificent gesture which I shall be bringing forward during the coming in funding the provision of a new operating theatre. I have months, each of which forms a part of the department's no doubt that their generosity will be widely welcomed by overall strategy for the future provision of service within hon. members this afternoon and that this sentiment will

• Ramsey Cottage Hospital — Mechanical and Electrical Services — Expenditure Approved — Acknowledgement of Generous Donation T680 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 be reciprocated throughout the Island. Mr President, I beg are a magnificent bunch. They have worked very hard to to move, sir. hold Ramsey Cottage Hospital together; they are very highly thought of in Ramsey and the north of the Island, • Mr Bell: Mr President, it gives me very great pleasure and I think a word of thanks to them for their loyalty and to second the resolution as proposed by the hon. member dedication at this difficult time should not go unsaid. I for North Douglas and the hon. Minister for the DHSS. would urge hon. members to give their full support to this The work which is now taking place at the Ramsey Cottage resolution today. It is a very important one for Ramsey Hospital, though disruptive in its nature, is very welcome and for medical services in the north of the Island and with indeed to the people of Ramsey and by the people of the the likely disruption, should we ever get a resolution before north of the Island. Whether mischievously or otherwise, us in this hon. Court, in relation to the new Ballamona there have on occasions been rumours circulating in the Hospital we may well need a fall-back situation for a few North as to the long-term future and use of Ramsey Cottage years and Ramsey will be able to provide just that level of Hospital. I think the evidence now given by the service, so it is not just something that is beneficial to commitment by the Department of Health and Social Ramsey; it may well in the long term be beneficial to the Security in co-operation with the Trustees of Ramsey whole of the Isle of Man, albeit for a short period. So I Cottage Hospital to carry out the quite extensive range of would ask hon. members to give their full support to this works now being proposed by the minister, together with resolution today. the development of a brand new and, dare I say, state-of- the-art operating theatre, ought to convince any doubters The Speaker: Mr President, I just wanted to ask a once and for all as to the very very strong commitment question and to make a general comment. The question I there is from government to the continuing operation and think may have been already answered by the hon. member success of the Ramsey Cottage Hospital. I would like to for Ramsey, in that I was wanting to know as to how much add my warm sentiments of gratitude to the Trustees of was the generous donation that is going to be forthcoming. I understand it is in excess of £1 million. It is not specified • the Ramsey Cottage Hospital for the wonderful gesture as far as I can see in the documentation that has been that they have made in contributing well over a million circulated. pounds towards the construction of the new operating The other point related to the development of theatre. It is a fact, I think, which is often overlooked - the community hospitals generally. I can understand that this extent and the warmth of feeling there is in Ramsey and development in the north of the Island must be a relatively the north of the Island to their hospital. It is more than major plank in the development of community hospital simply an attachment to a physical hospital; it is their care in the north of the Island and I was wondering whether hospital, it is something they are very proud of in Ramsey he can relate a time scale to the proposed development of and are willing continually to make financial contribution an equivalent facility in the south of the Island. I am sure towards improving that facility and I think, in coming up that would be of more than passing interest to a lot of the with a contribution in excess of a million pounds at this members of this hon. Court. particular time, it is a further example of that long-term commitment on the part of the trustees themselves. Mr Radcliffe: Mr President, I rise to not only support I think Ramsey Cottage Hospital has now reached the the resolution but also, as one who is honoured to hold the beginning of a whole new era, because not only are we office of Chairman of the Ramsey Cottage Hospital Welfare seeing the development of the operating theatre, the back- Trustees, I would like - and there are only three of us as up support of the work being done on the mechanical and trustees of this particular one - on behalf of the other electrical side of things, but we will be very shortly seeing members to thank members here this afternoon for the the completion of the refurbishment of Dalmeny as a words that they have said. I would just ask the media, please further extension of Ramsey Cottage Hospital and, in the do not confuse the Ramsey and District Cottage Hospital not-too-distant future, some form of ESME Unit will be • Welfare Trustees with the League of Friends. Now, the constructed in the Ramsey Cottage Hospital as well, which League of Friends are a very separate organisation who will benefit from this work which is being proposed in have done and are doing excellent work on behalf of the this resolution today. So the whole range of facilities and hospital, but the welfare trustees are a separate body. services provided by the hospital in the future will expand For Mr Speaker's information, we are funding as considerably from what it has been used to to date, and I trustees the total of the theatre job for the hospital, £1.147 am absolutely sure it will give renewed strength and million. So we as trustees have been very fortunate in that direction to the hospital for the future. donations to the welfare fund have been very generous So I would simply, once again, like to add my words to indeed over the years, and this has enabled my fellow the minister's in thanking the trustees and I would also trustees and myself to consider funding this development like to take the opportunity - and I am sure I speak for all in total. members in this - to thank the staff who are going through It is worth pointing out, I think, also for members' a very difficult time at the moment with major changes information, that this is not the first project of this sort that taking place to their work pattern, particularly the the trustees have undertaken. They have over the years construction changes which will take place over the next upgraded various wards within the hospital - the private 12 months with the building work and the need to decant wing, for example, and the other acute wards. The trustees patients around the building to accommodate that building have funded those entirely and been happy to do so with work. It will be a very stressful time for the staff, but they the full support of many people in the north of the Island.

Ramsey Cottage Hospital — Mechanical and Electrical Services — Expenditure Approved — Acknowledgement of Generous Donation • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T681

When it became obvious that the theatre facilities at sector in the Island. The department would, on many • the cottage hospital would be withdrawn - not exactly short occasions, like to do more than it is financially able to do term but long term - we as the trustees, in common with but we do have in many areas the co-operation and support many others, were most disturbed, and as long ago as three- of many voluntary groups and this particular donation is plus years we decided as trustees that, funds permitting, it one which stands out as exceptional in its generosity. would be in the interests of the hospital and the people of I would like, too, to endorse the remarks of the hon. the north that theatre facilities should be available again member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, in commending the staff at in Ramsey. The proposal was acceptable to the Department this particular time, because they have had a very difficult of Health and Social Security and, although it has taken period to go through in terms of not only the changes which some time to accomplish, we are now in the position of we are making in relation to the transfer of ESME patients achievement in that the work is due to start very shortly to Ramsey but the disruption that will take place if the and is to be completed, I understand, within 12 months. Court endorses the resolution today and provides for the As the minister said, it is supposedly going to be a state- replacement of the mechanical and electrical services down of-the-art theatre, one which not only the North but the there. It is going to be quite a difficult period. They have Island in general can be proud of and the trustees, as I say, had a period of upset and concern but they have worked are proud to be involved with it. well with the department and I am sure will continue to do It is fair to say, I think, that the trustees have always so as the work goes on with a view to providing what I been positive in their approach as to what is best for this think is a very exciting development at Ramsey in terms northern hospital. We have, as I have said, undertaken of the developments in the hospital and at Dalmeny which various projects in the past, but this is the largest by far will give far better working conditions for the people who that we have ever undertaken and it is thanks again to the are there, better conditions for the patients who are in the very generous support of the public at large and, more hospital and for those out-patients who will make use of • particularly, I have to say, in the north of the Island, that the services in Dalmeny, whether they be mental health, we are able to do this, and I would urge the Court to support community services, services for the elderly or whether the resolution in front of us this afternoon. they be for people with learning disabilities. A whole wide range of services will be provided there. Mr Groves: Mr President, I would just like to associate In terms of the provision in other parts of the Island, I myself with the remarks that have been made by the am sure the minister will give an indication, as it appears minister and my hon. friend for Ramsey with regard to the in the Pink Book in any case, as to when the development huge statement of faith that the people of Ramsey have will take place in the South. We look forward to the same made through the trustees in terms of the generous kind of spirit of voluntary co-operation and fund-raising donation, but I particularly would like to place on record in other areas and I am sure we will receive it. my thanks and those of the people of Ramsey and my colleagues to the present Minister for Health, because I Mr Cannan: Mr President, I would like to join with was fortunate enough to be at the department when we my colleagues from the north of the Island in associating first negotiated the acquisition of Dalmeny and myself with grateful appreciation for what is being done subsequently begin discussions with the trustees and others for the Ramsey Cottage Hospital and again to say how with regard to the provision of a replacement theatre at the much this facility of a hospital in the north of the Island is cottage hospital in Ramsey. I think it is fair to say that appreciated by the people of the North, and their there was not unanimity at the time within the department appreciation is shown by their voluntary contributions to that a theatre should be built at Ramsey at all, and there the hospital, either to the welfare trustees or the League of certainly was not unanimity amongst the medical fraternity Friends. They think very highly of their hospital. This is a outside of Ramsey, but the present minister took the view tremendous moment that, in conjunction with the minister, • that this should happen 3V2 or so years ago and since, as who has always supported the cottage hospital and its mentioned by the hon. member for the Council, Mr provision of medical care in the North, we say thanks and Radcliffe, and personally I would like to thank him for his thanks to the chairman of the welfare trustees for what consistency and determination in seeing that Ramsey and will be a quantum leap in medical facilities for the North. this enormously generous gesture of faith by the trustees was fully responded to and, indeed, the response the The President: Reply, sir? department is making in the other commitment of substantial funds to improving the structure of Ramsey Thank you, Mr President. It is one of the Cottage Hospital and putting it into the position which my Mr May: (Members: hon. friend has described as a statement of its place in our more pleasant debates to respond to, I think, health care delivery in the future. Thank you. Hear, hear.) and certainly there was no question, when I stood up a little earlier, that anyone was going to oppose Mrs Christian: Mr President, I too would like to add this particular resolution. It is one, I think, which typifies my endorsement to the words of the minister in thanking some of the older values and it is nice in this day and age the welfare trustees for their extremely generous help in when you can see a community rallying round to produce the provision of the theatre and its associated funds to the level that have been produced to further this accommodation at Ramsey. This, I think, is symbolic of project. I think it is absolutely tremendous and it is that teamwork between government and the voluntary something that I know we all really appreciate.

Ramsey Cottage Hospital — Mechanical and Electrical Services — Expenditure Approved — Acknowledgement of Generous Donation T682 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

Mr Speaker did ask the degree of funding that was given. supplementary agenda. These I have to consider during I did actually refer to it in my brief. It is also referred to in the tea-break to decide whether or not I will permit this • the brief circulated by the department. The hon. member supplementary agenda. Mr Radcliffe has referred to it but again I will repeat that £1,149,400 is the total cost of the new theatre, and again I Mr Delaney: Hear, hear. cannot repeat enough just how magnificent a gesture that is, what it means, not to the department but to the staff, to Mr Lowey: Quite right. the patients and to the people of Ramsey and the north of the Island. The President: Thank you, hon. members. We will I would just like to thank those members who have resume at 20 minutes to five. contributed to the debate for their support, for their thanks, and it is nice to be able to start on the road of putting The Court adjourned at 4.16 p.m. together the huger jigsaw that is part of the major strategy for the development of health and community care in the Isle of Man. I did say in my opening remarks that this PROCEDURAL would be the first of a number of resolutions which the department will be bringing forward in the course of the The President: Hon. members, a supplementary agenda next few months aimed at achieving that particular will be produced. On it there will be items relating to public objective, the objective set out in the 1991 strategy health and information. There will be no schemes discussed document which was approved at that particular time. this afternoon; schemes will be laid before the Court. I Obviously, another plank in the development of health have arranged with Mr Speaker to have a special sitting and community services is that of the community hospital next Tuesday afternoon at which proposals of the for the south of the Island to which Mr Speaker has referred, Department of Agriculture can be placed before the Court • and I can confirm that that is scheduled to be started in for consideration. 1999-2000 - that is the community hospital - but we will be coming forward later this year to start on the actual site Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, why can these items not be with the development of the new GP surgery on that placed on the agenda so that they can take place at the end particular area. So things will be happening in the south of of this sitting, which surely would be tomorrow? the Island and I know Mr Speaker appreciates that it is all a matter of chamfering things into the capital project. It The President: A supplementary agenda paper will be was unfortunate that the requirement to build the ward issued with the items which I have stated on it. Other items block a few years ago caused us to have to put back the which have been submitted will not be on this southern community hospital development but I can assure supplementary agenda paper. I have, however, made him that it has not been further put back in the programme; provision with Mr Speaker to have a special sitting of the it remains where it was. Court to meet the position next Tuesday afternoon. I do I would again just like to express my thanks to the not think hon. members can be catapulted into a situation trustees and to Mr Radcliffe in particular. It has been a here, taking a decision this afternoon on matters which pleasure, as members of the department, I think, to are of urgent public importance without any briefing undertake this joint venture with the trustees and I would whatsoever. reiterate to the media, please do not confuse them with the League of Friends of the cottage hospital who do, I might Mr Cannan: Hear, hear. Well done! add, an equally good and as important a task. I think we have answered all the questions that have • been put. There is a challenge for the staff and my colleagues have mentioned that, and I think it is only right JURY ACT 1980 (AMENDMENT) ORDER that we should say that we recognise that. We recognise 1996 —APPROVED that recent uncertainty with developments has caused concern amongst the staff that has been, I think, taken out The President: We go on, hon. members, to item 9. of some context in certain areas, but I am pleased to say The Chief Minister. that the moves for the redevelopment of the hospital are now moving ahead. Most of the perceived problems have The Chief Minister: Mr President, I beg to move: been resolved and I am sure that any that remain will be resolved to the entire satisfaction of everyone and to the That the Jury Act 1908 (Amendment) Order 1996 benefit of the people of the north. I beg to move. be approved.

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Schedule 1 of the Jury Act of 1980 sets out the categories standing at item 8 on the paper. Will those in favour please of persons who are exempted or, as the case may be, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. disqualified from jury service. The Jury Act 1980 Hon. members, the Court will now take a break and we (Amendment) Order 1996 merely updates the terminology will resume at 20 minutes to five - a rather long tea-break whereby the reference to 'Government Office' is replaced simply because I have just received representations for a by 'Chief Secretary's Office' and the reference to 'the

Procedural Jury Act 1980 (Amendment) Order 1996 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T683

Administrator of the department of Health and Social please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Security' is replaced by the 'the Chief Executive Officer have it. • of the Department of Health and Social Security'. I beg to move that the Jury Act of 1980 (Amendment) Order 1996 be approved. MERCHANT SHIPPING (LIMITED PARTNERSHIPS) (RELEVANT COUNTRIES) Mr Gelling: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve REGULATIONS 1996 — APPROVED my remarks. The President: Item 12, the Minister for Transport. Mr Cannan: Just one query, Mr President. The order states, 'the Chief Secretary and those members of the staff Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: of the Chief Secretary's office whose work is concerned with the administration of justice.' I was always under the That the Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) impression the administration of justice was concerned (Relevant Countries) Regulations 1996 be approved. with at the General Registry and the Chief Registrar and that it was separate from the work of executive government. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and Perhaps the Chief Minister could explain where the reserve my remarks. administration of justice and executive government seem to be working out of the same office? The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, standing at item 12 on the order paper. Will those in favour Mr Walker: Yes, Mr President. I am not in a position please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes to explain the detail of the hon. member's question but I have it. • will make sure he gets the information. What I do believe is important is that, if there are those officers who are involved in the administration of justice, then they be dealt MOTOR VEHICLES (CONSTRUCTION AND the Act, the legislation as has been laid down by hon. USE) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 1) REGULATIONS members in the House of Keys, and this is purely an 1996 — APPROVED updating of the terminology. The President: Item 13, the Minister for Transport. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 9 on the order paper. Will those in favour Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 1) Regulations 1996 be approved.

MEDICINES ACT 1979 (AMENDMENT) ORDER The Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) 1996 —APPROVED (Amendment) (No. 1) Regulations 1996 have two objectives: first, motor cycle fuel tanks. The proposed The President: Item 11, the Minister for Local amendment removes the prohibition on the use on Government and the Environment. motorbikes of fuel tanks which are made of a plastics material. Until these regulations come into force, only metal fuel tanks may be used on road bikes first used before • Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: February 1993. Under the proposed regulations, fuel tanks made of a plastic material must be either supplied by the That the Medicines Act 1976 (Amendment) Order manufacturer of the motor bike or be certified by the 1996 be approved. supplier of the fuel tank as having met the standards which are applied to plastic fuel tanks permitted on motor cars or Section 58 of the Medicines Act 1976 provides for been tested and approved by TUV of Germany. The present certain medicinal products to be supplied on prescription prohibitions and restrictions do not take into account the only by specified persons. This order gives powers to the testing and approval standards which have been developed department to specify types of nurses and midwives in for plastics fuel tanks in Germany in particular or utilised terms of them being so specified persons so that they too by manufacturers of motor bikes and which have been may be able to supply medicines listed in the Medicines found to be safe. Act as prescription-only medicines. The amendment is The second part: the present Isle of Man regulations based on United Kingdom legislation. I beg to move the only allow trailers to be drawn by motor tricycles and item standing at agenda item number 11 in my name. motorbike and side-car combinations. The proposed amendment being considered today will allow solo Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. motorcycles to draw a trailer subject to the weight and dimensional specifications. If approved, these regulations The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, will come into operation on 1st May 1996. It is my pleasure standing at item 11 on the order paper. Will those in favour to move this resolution standing in my name.

Medicines Act 1979 (Amendment) Order 1996 — Approved Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) (Relevant Countries) Regulations 1996 — Approved Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 1) Regulations 1996 — Approved T684 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and does not affect the length of lorries or the weight of lorries; reserve my remarks. it is just purely the width. I beg to move. • Mr Downie: Mr President, I would just like to make Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and comment on both of these types of vehicles referred to in reserve my remarks. the Act. I would just like to put on record that I am grateful to the department for having gone to a great deal of trouble Mr Delaney: Mr President, all matters on the Tynwald to introduce regulations to deal with plastic tanks. There agenda and other agendas of the House of Keys and the has been a problem for some time in that a lot of these off- Legislative Council are important, and some, obviously, road machines that were used on the Isle of Man for dual because their financial considerations are seen to be more purpose - the trials type of machine - had metal tanks and important than others. From time to time such orders as needed to be replaced by plastic ones, and there was no we are now discussing come on the agenda paper and do legislation to cover them, and what the department have not seem of very much import. I have in front of me, as all done is address this problem. This will now enable some members have, an explanatory memorandum from the large events to take place on the Island legally because, up department explaining the why and wherefore of this until this new order comes in, certain bikes that came to particular order. I ask members to take that particular the Island to take part in events were illegal to run on the explanatory memorandum out and look at the bottom line. roads with plastic fuel tanks. Now, this should solve this I am going to ask the minister where the request came specific problem and also, as in Ti' week, we see vehicles from for this order, bearing in mind the statement that the visiting the Isle of Man, motorbikes, with single-wheel hauliers of the Isle of Man seemed little interested and trailers. In the past that was illegal. Now they can bring a obviously did not ask for this order to come forward, from small trailer and draw it behind their motorcycle in a the statement from the minister's brief. perfectly legal manner. I think this is welcomed by people The second I want to identify for members, particularly • involved with motorcycles and motorcycle sport and I am those from areas where they have narrow streets and roads sure the Court will support it today. in their areas, is that the minister says this only affects the width; maybe the minister and myself are on different The President: Reply, sir? planets, because one of the major problems on this Island that he must be aware of as the minister is the wear and Mr North: Mr President, I would just like to thank the tear on the roads. He must be aware of the debate that took hon. member for West Douglas for his interest in both these place the last time prior to his ministership with Mr Callin subjects and I beg to move. when he was minister, about the length of vehicles and the undertakings that were given to this hon. Court at that time. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Members are aware by this brief that the increased width set out on the order paper. Will those in favour please say from 2.50 to 2.55 seems of little significance to him, but aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. most people who understand the problems of the highways and the byways and the streets and roads of this Island, know already what the public are suffering. Members from time to time stand up here and say it is MOTOR VEHICLES (CONSTRUCTION AND our difference that makes the difference. When the minister USE) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) REGULATIONS explains to us why the order is in front of us, if it is not 1996 — APPROVED from the hauliers, and where it has come from, it would then explain to me, I hope, and to you, the damage the Item 14, the Minister for Transport The President: weight increases which are mentioned in this document, again to move. the change of axle and the width are going to do already to • the deteriorating roads. Next to the last item on this Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Mr North: explanatory memorandum it says 'Resource implications - none.' I will accept that in office power, in staff, but in That the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) resources, hon. members, I can assure you that if you, like (Amendment) (No 2) Regulations 1996 be approved. me - and I am sure you have - have witnessed the deterioration in the highways even outside this building in The first is to permit the maximum overall width of Circular Road since they relaid it, by the use of heavy goods vehicles, passenger vehicles and tractors and relevant vehicles, you are going to see much more needed resources trailers to be increased from 2.5 metres to 2.55 metres and to resurface these roads and to maintain the roads of our the maximum width for refrigerated vehicles to be community when these vehicles get into operation. increased to 2.6 metres. These widths have been adopted The explanation given in this explanatory memorandum in the UK as from 1st January. is that it is because they are now designing wagons to fit The second amendment reduces the minimum axle the pallets better. This is the reason they have given. How space and overall length and specifies the road-friendly many of these vehicles have I seen in operation or have suspension requirements for articulated lorries with five you seen? Are we saying that at some time in the future or more axles which have a laden weight between 32,250 the Steam Packet might want to carry these larger wagons? kilos and 38,000 kilos maximum. I should stress that this And if that is the reason, tell us! But I and others in this Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1996 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T685

Court on other occasions have made it clear, until we can of goods is going up. I just fail to believe this, and the fact • get a proper policy and the existing problems of the that we still have wagons without road-friendly suspension highways and byways of this Island sorted out, the last and they are quite happy to let them go along our roads thing we need is bigger juggernauts with no air springs. and wreak the havoc that they cause is quite beyond me, He actually says in the memorandum here that more and I will be voting against this. damage is created by wagons without air springs than with them, but this order is giving permission for these bigger, Some Members: Hear, hear. wider vehicles without air springs to come onto our roads. What sort of policy, I ask the minister, have we got? I Mr Bell: Mr President, my comments really are very happened to be down in Peel the week before last and you much in the vein of the two previous speakers. The could not move in two of the streets because two vehicles members of the House of Keys will remember fairly were supplying shops. Nobody could even get past the side recently that an attempt was made under the guise of the of the vehicles, and here we are increasing the width. You Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill which would have resulted will not be able to get a cat under them in some of the in an increase in the weight of commercial vehicles coming highways of this Island! into the Island. The minister himself seemed quite baffled I would like to know, hon. members, is this where we at the time at the actual description that he was obliged to want to go? What is wrong with leaving things as they are give as to the reasoning of why that came in. This, though, and, if we got to such a desperate state that there was a it seems to me, has come forth after the minister has totally clamour outside this building by the hauliers and other ignored all the comments which were made in the House users to have wider wagons on the road, we could have a of Keys and says, 'We are going for it anyway'. I just discussion and debate on it, but this seems to have emanated wonder who is in the particular driving seat in the from somebody who has the audacity to tell us that virtually Department of Transport these days, but obviously not the • these vehicles will do more damage to the roads. They are juggernauts. The biggest juggernaut of all is the Department telling you, if you read it. We are going to get more damage, of Transport. we are going to have wider vehicles and to no advantage It seems to me also that the time has come for the hon. except that we are going to have wagons that suit the pallets minister, or the department at least, to come clean with better. That is the whole concept of the explanatory hon. members and to say that we are now committed to memorandum. I ask members, is that what we want? following UK regulations come hell or high water, because I would like the minister to answer the question where this again is the motivation, it would seem, in the it came from, what he sees the real resource that will be description that is presented to us here. We are in these required when these vehicles continue and increase the cases once again bringing things into line with UK cutting-up of the roads which is witnessed outside this regulations. Now, it may well be that we do not have an building and everywhere on the Isle of Man, and, if he option, that you cannot have separate regulations for the cannot do that and tell us why, members, please reject it, Isle of Man as opposed to the United Kingdom or as because nobody has been on the phone to you or written opposed, maybe, to Northern Ireland, but let us be honest to you or me to tell us to widen the vehicle allowances on about it if that is the case. Tell people this is the situation. the Isle of Man. It just seems to have emanated from The weight restrictions which we will have to live with on somebody who has seen some directive in Britain and the Isle of Man will in future be dictated by the United thinks it would be a good idea to get it on the agenda paper. Kingdom which in turn is dictated by the European Hon. members, on this issue, which affects every one of Community. Now, if that is the case, tell us - that is all we your constituents and every person on this Island, reject it are asking - instead of slipping in these things every so until you get proper explanations of why we want to often under the guise of simply regularising the situation. increase the juggernauts on this Island, knowing the But the second point which I despair of at times - and I • know I am banging my head against a brick wall as far as problems we have already got. this is concerned - we are also talking about the imposition Mr Waft: Mr President, I would just like to rise in of a 30 mile-an-hour speed limit. What a load of rubbish! support of the last speaker. I would put it to the minister We cannot enforce the speed limits we have got at the that it is not the wagon that is heavily laden that is having moment, whether it is 50, 40 or 30, so what are we playing the problems on the roads, it is actually the wagons that at, bringing in yet another restriction we know full well are going along when they are empty. The Department of we are not going to do anything about and we are not going Transport has laid a beautifully flat road and then the Water to enforce? There has not been a single prosecution, to my Board comes along, digs it up, one trench, and after 12 knowledge, of any commercial vehicle charged with months have gone by there is a great big ravine right speeding since these restrictive plates were brought in. Very through the whole centre of the road and then these empty few of them that I ever come across on the road take a wagons hit it at well over 30 miles an hour and the impact blind bit of notice of the plating which is on their own on the housing and the road has to be seen to be believed, specific vehicle. Their view of life is to get to the end of and it is going on continually. Every time these regulations their journey as quickly as possible and, if that means are increased for one reason or another little by little we running over a few other cars along the way, so be it. are told the price of goods in the shops is going to go up I have an aversion to bringing in controls or legislation unless we increase this and big wagons will not be able to which we know full well are totally impractical and traverse the roads of the Isle of Man and therefore the price unenforceable, and it demeans the status of parliament,

• Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1996 — Approved T686 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 whether it is Tynwald or the House of Keys, to bring in weight that is going to be allowed to carry, then those legislation of this nature which we know full well is vehicles surely would not be suitable; the argument against unenforceable. It just makes a nonsense of the whole this order would be quite relevant, because the roads are • process that we are involved in here, but it is also a point, not suitable, even though they are roads that have been especially in relation to the speed limits, which was raised singled out for a particular destination. I know you are again under the debate which took place on the Road Traffic trying to upgrade the roads as you go along, upgrade to Bill, and clearly not a jot of notice has been taken of any carry a heavier weight, but at the moment we still have not of the comments which were made at that time and the done enough to compensate for some of the heavy vehicles department has just gone willy-nilly and carried on with that are coming in here now. So I am afraid, unless the their policies, come hell or high water. I suggest, if we are minister can give us a better reason than he has done, then not careful, we are all going to get run over by the I am afraid I am going to support the other members (Some juggernaut of the Department of Transport, and that is the Members: Hear, hear.) and vote against this order. juggernaut we should be more concerned about at the moment than the ones we are supposedly legislating for in Mr Corrin: Mr President, the bandwagon is rolling and the resolution before us today. it is all good electioneering stuff!

Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I very much sympathise with A Member: You know all about that! (Interjections and the views expressed by the last three hon. members. I think laughter) that if we once pass these orders we shall never get them reversed. Also I think the other hon. members have raised Mr Corrin: But I would say, 'Stick to your guns, a very good point as to what else is planned in the future. minister, because at least you are living in the real world.' I would hope that, having heard what has been said, the It is interesting to hear the complaint from a member of hon. minister might withdraw these orders and arrange a the Department of Industry because, having vehicles of • meeting at which his officers could explain them much the size that carry standard unit loads and so on... the hon. more and explain future policy, and I would hope that, he member Mr May knows all about this, how uneconomic would agree to that. Frankly, if he does not, I think for one Manx industry was some years ago because of the daft I shall vote against them, because I cannot believe they restrictions that we had. We had restrictions which applied are so urgent that they have to be rushed through at this to about the only place in the world, the Isle of Man, and I sitting. We have not had them for the last months or years. am afraid the world does not change for the sake of the People can wait a month or two before renewing their Isle of Man, and industry was an advantage, and I can vehicles, if there is anyone who wants to renew their assure you, it is through inefficiencies like this that you vehicles. So I believe the whole of this should be explained lose business, or industrialists lose business. It costs us in much more detail at a meeting and, until it has been, more in all sorts of ways, even the food that comes to this these orders should be withdrawn. Island and so on and so forth. The same people would be the first to shout if unemployment was rising, and these Mr Kermode: Mr Speaker, I have listened with interest are the reasons. to the last four speakers. If this Court is going to say we do Now, I was over South the other night there, at a certain not want any more bigger lorries or vehicles into the Isle church, and there was a lot of activity going on there and of Man, well, that is fair enough. From my reading of the there, were some large vehicles there. figures - and my colleagues were just discussing it - to me we are talking here about two inches in metric; it would A Member: Lorries! be two inches in width, but that is all we are talking about and we are bringing that in because there are certain - Mr Corrin: What were those large vehicles? What were (Interjections) they doing there and what were they in aid of? They were • vehicles from companies engaged in the making of a film, The President: Hon. members. The hon. member for something to do with stiffs - they had these notices all Douglas East. over the place. (Interjections and laughter) That is what they were doing - some of the largest vehicles I have ever Mr Kermode: If we are bringing it in because of the seen in the Island. What were they doing there? They were manufacture of certain pallets or certain things that have part of the operation supported by the hon. member, Mr to be carried on these wagons that will not be manufactured Bell, in the film industry. (Members: Oh!) Now, this is to the size that they have to in the future then there may be the nonsense that you get when you are standing up like that there is a case to be made. I oppose what was happening this without thinking, when your mouth is out of joint with in another place with this Bill because, quite rightly, as your brain. (Laughter and interjections) An absolute load hon. members know, I have been concerned for some time. of nonsense! On the one hand he is on the radio pushing The problem you have in the Isle of Man is that when I the film industry and so on and yet, when the people who was on the Highways Department, we carried out an actually carry out the work do it and arrive then he is upgrade of our roads because the concern was that the roads shouting about the vehicles they use to carry their and the grade of road that we have now was not suitable equipment. (Interjections) I give you an example. I am for the size of wagon that is coming in even now. So if it afraid we have to live in the real world. A lot of restrictions means that increasing the width is going to increase the have been put on by the Department of Transport to regulate Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1996 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T687

the vehicles, where they can go and so on and so forth, vehicle is full. There is a case, evidently, for when the and they are now well sprung. It has been said in this Court vehicle is empty that the friendly suspension does not work • as well, and a lot of the vehicles are not fitted. So we are before that five axles can do less damage, less wear, if `damage' is the word, certainly than four, three or two axles. trying to be practical. I expected to be hammered on this It may well be that double-deckers on our roads, for their one (Members: Hear, hear.) but if you just think of the size and their weight, are doing more damage - yes, running economy of the Island and what we have done over the empty too - than a loaded commercial vehicle. last few years, all right, we increased the weight, the axle weight - and I thank the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Mr Kermode: Tractors! Corrin, for his support because he understands what it is all about. Mr Corrin: So I would say to the Court, let us take this and, minister, stick to you guns. Mr Kermode: You are not used to it!

Mr Kermode: And that wasn't an election speech! Mr North: We increased the weight that a long vehicle could carry from 32 tonnes to 38, and that has made a Mr North: If I fire off my salvo now, Mr President, I tremendous saving because the wagons were the same size did not go into any great detail because I knew that there coming into the Island, it was just the weight in the vehicle would be members of this Court who would say exactly that they could not carry. So the actual amount, the saving what they have said. Mr Bell is continually critical of the on the goods coming into the Island in the last three, four Department of Transport (Members: Hear, hear.) and our years, has been quite dramatic and a lot of the hauliers juggernauts. know that. Can I just try and explain the reasoning is behind this • extra two-inch width of these vehicles? Two-inches - that Mr Cretney: Pity they are not passing it onto us. is what we are talking about. (Interjections) In the United Kingdom, on 1st January this year, the new regulations Mr North: There is no additional size of the vehicle. came in for 2.55 metres. I should point out, which is in the Now, the other reason - and I stressed, when I moved the explanatory memorandum, that the cabs are already 2.75 resolution, it is nothing to do with the width or length; we metres wide. The reason is that there used to be a lot of are not increasing the length. At the moment the regulations open-sided vehicles, large vehicles, and the theft on those say that only a minimum of 14 metres vehicle. So if a vehicles has been so high that they can no longer put canvas vehicle comes in at 10 metres it is illegal. That is a down the side, they have to have a hard shell, and the pallets nonsense, so that is why we are changing it. That is the that fit those vehicles have to fit inside a vehicle which is reason, and we are not just following because it is some 2.55 metres, which is the reason for the increase from 2.50 bureaucracy that we want to create. We are trying to be metres. Now, also, I could not agree more with the hon. sensible, trying to be helpful to industry on the Island both member for Council, Mr Delaney. (Members: Hear, hear.) coming in and out. It is looked at. The hon. member for I do not like seeing heavy vehicles on our roads and, in Glenfaba, Mr Gilbey, is welcome at any time to come down fact, these large vehicles are on designated routes. Now, I for a full dissertation on all these aspects. have to accept some of those are somewhat narrow, but they are done for economic reasons. All the time - and it is Mr Kermode: Oh, lovely! That will be painful! not these large, lengthy vehicles coming into the Island - we are just putting another weight limit on, I think it is, Mr North: Mr Gilbey is in touch with my department the Clannagh Road, which has been totally decimated almost on a daily basis. recently by heavy wagons overusing it. These roads were • not meant for that and we will continue to do that and try Members: Hear, hear. and protect some of our roads. You had the example, which is why we use designated routes for these heavy vehicles, Mr Cretney: That is quite obvious! at the Ballaragh when you had the landslide. The coast road was blocked and all the daily traffic suddenly went Mr Brown: We can see the speed limits! onto the Ballaragh Road; within a matter of days the whole surface had pot-holes. We were filling it continually; in Mr North: He is most welcome to continue with that the morning there was no pot-hole, in the evening it was a and we will provide any information we possibly can. foot deep, and that is the road that was not meant for heavy Hon. members, I accept the points that were made and traffic. So we have to try and limit these heavy wagons I do not like juggernauts at all. If this hon. Court or onto designated routes. somebody wishes at some time to change the whole of the As far as the suspension is concerned, the friendly industry on the Island and reduce down to small vehicles - suspension on some vehicles... and the point was made fine. That is a different matter. We are just trying at this about when they are empty; they are certainly more noisy stage to be practical. I beg to move. when they are empty, and the friendly suspension, I understand - and I am not an expert on this at all - but The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution there is a big debate on as to when the friendly suspension standing at item 14 on the order paper. Will those in favour is friendly, and it is only at certain occasions when the please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.

410 Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1996 — Approved T688 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: consumption either on- or off-Island, and no production of mechanically recovered meat takes place or has ever In the Keys - taken place on the Island, and so the changes are not intended to have direct effect on the Isle of Man meat For: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Walker, Corrin, industry. However, the measure is necessary to prevent Cringle, Brown, May, Crowe, Braidwood, Downie, Mrs the Island being used as a back door to circumvent United Hannan, Messrs Groves, Corkill, Kniveton, Gelling and Kingdom or EC restrictions on the movements of such the Speaker - 18 material. I therefore beg to move that the Export of Goods (Control)(Amendment No.2 ) Order 1995 (Application) Against: Messrs Gilbey, Cretney, Duggan, Kermode, Bell Order 1996 be approved, Mr President. and Karran - 6 Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second. The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys the motion carries with 18 votes in favour and 6 against. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 15 on the order paper. Will those in favour In the Council - please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Barton, Dr Mann, Mr Luft and Mrs Christian - 6 THE INVESTMENT BUSINESS Against: Messrs Waft, Radcliffe and Delaney - 3 (EXEMPTION)(GROUP PENSION SCHEMES) REGULATIONS 1996 —APPROVED The President: In the Council, hon. members, 6 votes have been cast in favour of the resolution, 3 votes against; The President: Item 16, the Minister for the Treasury. the resolution therefore fails to carry - I am sorry, it is the other way round. It is carried. That shocked you! (Laughter) Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr North: We know which way you are thinking! That the Investment Business (Exemption)(Group Pension Schemes) Regulations 1996 be approved.

THE EXPORT OF GOODS Section 2(3) of the Investment Business Acts 1991 to (CONTROL)(AMENDMENT NO.2) ORDER 1995 1993 permits the Financial Supervision Commission, after (APPLICATION) ORDER 1996—APPROVED consultation with the Treasury, to exempt by regulation any person or class of person from any provision of the The President: Item 15, the Customs and Excise Act, Act. These regulations, which came into effect on 4th the Minister for the Treasury. March 1996, mean that persons whose only licensable investment business is to provide investment services to Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: in-house pension schemes, the beneficiaries of which are employees and ex-employees of companies within the That the Export of Goods (Control)(Amendment same group, to be exempt from requiring a licence under No.2) Order 1995 (Application) Order 1996 be approved. section 2 of the Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993. The regulations have been introduced in order to facilitate The purpose of this order is, firstly, to add mechanically new business in the Island whilst still having regard to the recovered meat from the vertebral column of bovine interests of investor protection. I therefore move, Mr animals to the list of animal products whose export outside President, item 16 on our agenda paper today. the European Community for human consumption is prohibited. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. Secondly, it also brings the definition of 'bovine offal' in the principal export control order into line with the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution definition of 'special bovine offal' - that is, material that standing at item 16 on the order paper. Will those in favour is subject to special controls. The result of these two please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes changes is to ensure such material is not exported. have it. The third change to the principal export control order is in regard to controls in goods in transit through the Island, to remove the reference to the United Nation's protected THE SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION areas of Croatia in the light of developments in the former (APPLICATION)(NO.2) ORDER Yugoslavia. 1996 —APPROVED As no goods would normally be expected to transit the Island en route to Croatia, this amendment should have The President: Item 17, the Minister for Health and little effect. No special bovine offal is sent for human Social Security.

The Export of Goods (Control) (Amendment No. 2) Order 1995 (Application) Order 1996 — Approved The Investment Business (Exemption) (Group Pension Schemes) Regulations 1996 — Approved The Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T689

• Mr May: Mr President, I beg to move: That the Controlled Machines (Amendment) Regulations 1996 be approved. That the Social Security Legislation (Application)(No.2) Order 1996 be approved. This regulation amends the maximum charge for play for an amusement with prize machine from 20 pence to 25 The purpose of this order is to apply to the Isle of Man, pence. It also increases the maximum prize on prize with appropriate modifications, the United Kingdom Social machines from £6 to £8. The above amendments will bring Security (Adjudication) Regulation 1995. As has been the Isle of Man in line with the United Kingdom where explained in the memorandum circulated to hon. members, similar regulations took effect last October. The amusement the regulations are a consolidation of previous regulations operators are anxious to be able to buy-in new machines relating to the determination of claims and questions under as they become available and these regulations will enable social security legislation. All of this legislation falls within them to import the latest machines in time for the summer the terms of the reciprocal agreement and it needs to be season. I beg to move, Mr President. applied to the Island to keep the adjustment with both countries in line, sir. I beg to move. Mr Barton: I beg to second.

Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I oppose this motion. I believe it is not the right way forward. We have so many of these The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution machines in pubs and everywhere else now. I am concerned standing at item 17 on the order paper. Will those in favour that we see that the betting levy, as far as these machines is concerned, has been increased by 25 per cent on these please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes machines. All right, the prize money has gone up. I believe have it. • that just because we will be out of step with the UK and we will not maybe take advantage of the most modern machines in the UK by doing this or it might cause THE PENSION SCHEMES LEGISLATION inconvenience that they have to put the slots for 20p in the (APPLICATION) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED 25p slots that are there at the present time, I feel that we should not support this proposal because it is not the right The President: Item 18, the Minister for Health and way forward. Social Security. I believe these machines create social problems. You see often people in pubs feeding these machines who are Mr May: Mr President, I beg to move: often the very people who should not be feeding the machines in the first place and I think that 20p at the present That the Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) time is sufficient and there is no justification for the increase Order 1996 be approved. and I think the minister should come up with something better than the industry just wanting to bring in new The purpose of this order is to apply to the Isle of Man, machines for the tourist industry on the Isle of Man. I know with appropriate modifications, a number of statutory the tourist industry is in a sad state but if we are having to instruments of Parliament relating to occupational and depend on bringing in more modern machines because of personal pensions. This UK legislation does not fall wholly this, then there is something wrong with the whole system. within the terms of the reciprocal agreement, but it does I do not think there is a justifiable case. I believe that need to be applied to the Island in order to keep the they should be left as they are, as I believe they cause more legislation of both countries in line so that the pensions trouble than they are worth. I believe they are there and I • industry can work under one set of rules in what is a very accept they are there but I do not see any justification for complicated area. I beg to move. it to be increased and I oppose and I hope that other members will oppose because I do not think we should Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. just be following the UK blindly. If you follow the UK blindly expect the same social problems as you have got The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution in the UK. standing at item 18 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Reply, sir? have it. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I did expect some resistance when moving this regulation because it deals with that social question of gambling with regard to THE CONTROLLED MACHINES machines but I think my hon. colleague from Onchan in (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS his summing up said that he accepted these machines are 1996 —APPROVED there. I accept that they are there; I think most people do. This regulation, although he refers to it as a 25 per cent The President: Item 19, the Minister for Home Affairs. increase, is in fact 20p to 25p. The debate as to whether gambling in this way is socially Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: correct or not I believe is a different argument compared

The Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) Order 1996 — Approved • The Controlled Machines (Amendment) Regulations 1996 — Approved T690 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 to this regulation which admittedly extends the situation (b) Mr W H Vincent be appointed as a member of the to some extent, but I think one has to bear in mind the Road Traffic Commissioners; operators of these machines do depend on importing them • from the United Kingdom, it is very costly to convert them for a period of three years expiring on 16th Apri11999. to 20p as opposed to the 25p and in some cases not possible, and therefore I understand the hon. member's disagreement The term of the office of the Road Traffic with the situation but I hope that the majority of members Commissioners is due for renewal and two of its members, will see that it is a reasonable increase and that the Gaming Mr George Costain and Mr Howard Kelly, have indicated Commissioners do scrutinise and monitor the situation on they would be prepared to serve a further term of office. a regular basis. All machines are tagged by the gaming The other member of the commissioners, Mr Johnny inspectors, operators have to notify all movements of Brew who was the chairman, has indicated that he would machines to the Gaming Commissioners and there is a like to retire. It is, I think, proper to pay tribute to the work computerised monitoring system from arrival, through the of Mr Brew who has been a member of the Road Traffic life of the machine to the point where it is disposed of. So Commissioners for the last nine years and its chairman for there is control on these machines operated quite effectively the last two. He has made a very valuable contribution to by the gaming inspectors. I beg to move, Mr President. the orderly control and development of public road transport on the Island and I am sure that we all greatly The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution appreciate his efforts. standing at item 19 on the order paper. Will those in favour As well as the reappointment of Mr Costain and Mr please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. Kelly that is before this hon. Court today it is also proposed that Mr Billy Vincent be appointed to the Road Traffic A division was called for and the voting resulted as Commissioners. I know that many members will remember follows: Mr Vincent from his days as secretary of the Highway and Transport Board and I am sure that his knowledge and In the Keys - background in this area will be of relevance and help to the work of the commissioners. Hon. members have For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Walker, Corrin, received a copy of Mr Vincent's C.V. so I do not propose Brown, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Downie, to repeat what is set out in that. However, I am confident Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Groves, Corkill, Kniveton, that Mr Vincent will serve the commissioners in a reliable Gelling and the Speaker - 18 and conscientious manner and I beg to move, sir.

Against: Messrs Cringle and Karran - 2 Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution House of Keys with 18 votes in favour and 2 against. set out at item 20 on the agenda paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have In the Council - it.

For: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Luft, Mrs Christian and Mr Delaney - 6 MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION — MEMBER APPOINTED Against: The Lord Bishop -1 The President: Item 21, the Chief Minister to move. The President: In the Council, hon. members, 6 votes have been cast in favour of the resolution, 1 vote against. Mr Walker: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: The resolution carries. That Mrs A V Craine be appointed as a member of the Manx Heritage Foundation. ROAD TRAFFIC COMMISSIONERS — MEMBERS REAPPOINTED — A vacancy has arisen on the membership of the Manx MEMBER APPOINTED Heritage Foundation caused by the resignation of Mr Charles Guard who has been appointed to the post of part- The President: Item 20, the Chief Minister to move. time administrative development officer for the foundation. Following Mr Guard's resignation, this resolution proposes Mr Walker: Mr President, I beg to move: for membership of the Manx Heritage Foundation Mrs A V Craine. Again members will have received a copy of That, Mrs Craine's C.V. and for that reason I do not propose to go into her background in detail. I would just like to say, (a) Mr G R Costain and Mr H H Kelly be reappointed however, that Mrs Craine appears to be well thought of by as members of the Road Traffic Commissioners; people with an involvement in this area and I am sure that

Road Traffic Commissioners — Members Reappointed — Member Appointed Manx Heritage Foundation — Member Appointed • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T691

she will make a very valuable contribution to the work of 58.5 per cent of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company the heritage foundation. shares, this has given rise to a mandatory offer by Sea • Containers to purchase the remaining shares and there is It is also proper, I think, that I pay a short tribute to the work of Mr Charles Guard who has served as a member of some further information on that offer, I think, made public the foundation from March 1990 until his resignation in today which would tend to indicate that that particular October last year. I know that Mr Guard's contribution to phase of this development could carry on for some two Manx heritage is well known and I would like to place on months or more. The most likely outcome, so I am advised, record the appreciation that we have for his work in is that most shareholders, certainly the institutional connection with the foundation and I beg to move this shareholders, will take up that offer. It is a virtual certainty resolution. that Sea Containers will end up with in excess of 75 per cent whatever more and at that level of course they could Mr Downie: I rise to second, Mr President. change the memorandum and articles. The Chief Minister has met with Mr Sherwood and he The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution very helpfully made a statement, I think, a couple of weeks standing at item 21 on the order paper. Will those in favour ago at the sitting of the Keys and provided certain please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have information and passed on certain reassurances, I think, it. which had been made known to him by Mr Sherwood. The essential points that I have pulled out of the draft Hansard are these. In Mr Sherwood's view there is a ISLE OF MAN STEAM PACKET COMPANY potential for business expansion with a consolidation of • LIMITED — CONTROLLING INTEREST OF Sea Containers' operations in the Irish Sea, in other words geared to the overall Irish Sea situation, not just the Isle of SEA CONTAINERS LIMITED — SELECT COMMITTEE — MOTION LOST Man situation. Secondly, the number of arrivals by sea to the Island, especially from Liverpool, Blackpool, Belfast The President: Item 22, the hon. member for Ayre. and Dublin markets, will be increased. I think one should notice the word 'markets'. It should not necessarily be Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: implied that the departures would be from those areas. Thirdly, ultimately there will be two high-speed ferries, That a select committee of three members be one of which will be seasonal, plus a freight-passenger appointed to consider the implications for the Island of high-speed vessel, but again not dedicated to the Island by the action by Sea Containers Limited in acquiring a any means. Fourthly, it may be possible to provide a SeaCat controlling interest in the Isle of Man Steam Packet for reinforcement during the TT week, and the fifth point Company Limited and report to the July 1996 sitting. that I have drawn out of the statement that the Chief Minister made is that the terms of the user agreement will I believe this motion is fairly straightforward. It seeks be met, so Mr Sherwood tells us. to set in motion a parliamentary investigation to obtain Now, this information of course provides little insight what might be termed further and better information on into Sea Containers' plans and how those plans will impact the consequences of the recent takeover of the Isle of Man on the Island and that is really the point I am making in this motion. It is a question, you can cast that again as a Steam Packet Company by Sea Containers, to provide answers to unanswered questions and if possible to address question: if you like how will Sea Containers' plans impact the very real concerns which exist at the present time, and on the Island? Some amplification can be obtained from the concerns I am talking about are those that are founded the information accompanying the Sea Containers' press release. It is my reading of this information that Sea really on a lack of knowledge as to what is happening and • Containers are set on a so-called triangular series of what is going to happen. The need for such an important services and use of the new vessels should be, I think, event I also believe is a matter that should be raised and viewed in that context, in other words not in the context of debated in this hon. Court and I think that is recognised in dedicated services necessarily. I think it should also be the motion as well. noted that Sea Containers' commitment is to, and this is a The events of the 29th March came, I think, as no quote, 'retain its residence in the Isle of Man for tax surprise to many of us; the question was not if but when. purposes' and you can read what you will into that and In common with many others on the Island I think I again it qualifies it and goes on 'for so long as there are anticipated that the putting in place of the user agreement minority shareholders', whatever that may mean. There is would be the catalyst. Mr Sherwood now of course has an expression of intention elsewhere in the statement to confirmed that this was the case, that it was the user base and run the Isle of Man Steam Packet from the Island, agreement which has caused him to have acted at this but that is quite clearly heavily qualified by that quotation particular point in time. which I have read out to you. Our vital sea links are now controlled by a Bermuda- Now, it is the uncertainty of the situation, I think, which registered company, for better or for worse. I do not seek concerns many people on the Island and that is really what at this point in time to be judgmental because quite frankly gives rise to the concern. In what way is control of the Isle we do not have the information to pass a full judgement. of Man Steam Packet Company so critical to the Sea The position is that Sea Containers have acquired at least Containers' vision for the future? Now, I can conjure up

Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost T692 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 different explanations but quite frankly none of them are responsibility to seek answers to these questions. How wholly satisfactory in the sense they do not satisfy me, successful we will be in getting their remains to be seen. never mind other people. How do Sea Containers intend Why a parliamentary investigation? Well, the underlying • to restructure their Irish Sea services and how will the issue is one, I believe, of confidence. As I said, it is based Island be placed in that scheme of things? Will we be better on the unknown and it is an exercise of which I believe, if off or will we be not so well off? I believe we need answers carried out by government, the product would be less to these questions. credible. Rightly or wrongly government are part and If triangular services, for want of a term, are to be the parcel of the user agreement and that must enter into the foundation for future services, and dedicated services and equation. I know the Minister for Transport has said that vessels are to be cast aside or reduced, what are the the user agreement is not subject to renegotiation. I implications for the Island of that mode of service? Now, understand that. It may be of course a little further along one may assume that considerations for the UK-Ireland that we would wish it to be subject to renegotiation and traffic would take precedence over our requirements if we perhaps we could even pursue that, but let us try and find are in effect to be a stopover, at least in respect of certain out, let us try to identify simply what are the implications. of our services a stopover. Having regard to the principal That is all I am suggesting. There is also the matter, I ports presently used by Sea Containers and the concept of believe, of a select committee having greater investigative triangular services, are we to see any change in the powers and that is not a consideration which should be set Liverpool services? We have seen quite a significant build- aside. up in the Liverpool services in recent years and I think So I do not stand in judgement as to whether what has beneficially so. There is no doubt about that. happened is to our benefit or not to our benefit. As, I think, Now, I notice from the annual report of Sea Containers with many people on the Island, I am searching for they have plans to operate from Holyhead to Dublin and information and when we have information we will be able in fact have taken action through the European Commission to have a better understanding of where we stand and it • to address their exclusion from Holyhead and they have may be that there is then room for some approach and been successful in getting the European Commission to negotiation, some better understanding to be arrived at. It rule in their favour that they have a right to use Holyhead. may be that there is even some contingency planning to be Now, we have to consider that in relation to paragraph 3 done or what has been put forward through this motion is of the user agreement in which the requirement refers to a that we should seek, through the vehicle I am suggesting, service or services that will be operated from a port to find as many answers to as many questions as we can described as Liverpool or Holyhead. So it is open, within get, no more and no less. Thank you, Mr President, I beg the terms of the user agreement, for Holyhead to be used to move. as a port. Now, the inference, if not the promise, is that the Island Mr Kniveton: Mr President, I am happy to second this will be served by large and faster vessels. What vessel motion. In brief, and I will not expound on what Mr Quine dimensions are planned and could they be accommodated has said, I have no objection to a select committee being in Douglas harbour? Now, I pose this question because it appointed in the terms of the motion. has been put to me by a senior member of the company's We continuously hear of the expression that the Steam seagoing staff. Packet Company is the lifeline of this Island, so in short if There seems little doubt that over the next two to three ownership of the lifeline changes, then I feel that all people years there will be a major restructuring of Isle of Man at the receiving end of the lifeline should have a right to Steam Packet Company services which will no doubt know whether the change of ownership is to have an effect further test the user agreement in a number of respects. on them. I applaud Mr Quine for bringing forward this Will this bring in a new class or classes of fares? Are they motion. Thank you. in contemplation? Will this bring us back to the workability • of paragraph 5 of the user agreement and how would it Mr Kermode: Mr President, whereas I agree with the stand up? Have we another lengthy and costly arbitration sentiments and some of the comments that Mr Quine has exercise on the horizon as a consequence of what could be made, I sometimes wonder whether this particular quite a major restructuring of some of our services? We resolution is premature. Only recently we have received a do not know. I do not know the answer, but I believe we document from the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company or should be seeking the answers. We certainly should not from the now Sea Containers who have taken it over and leave ourselves in a situation where things develop and at Mr Hamish Ross who has said that he intends to have a the last moment we are held to ransom. meeting with members of Tynwald and any points that These are but some of the concerns which I have and members of Tynwald want to talk about or raise they would those which have been voiced to me. No doubt other be only too happy to answer. So rather than just have three matters will be raised in the course of this debate, at least people of a select committee of this Court getting the I hope they will. Assuredly, if a select committee were to answers it would be much better that every one of us who be appointed, other concerns would be identified from has concerns should be given the opportunity to express outwith this hon. Court and that is equally important. I their views." think we should provide a conduit just to ascertain and And the other question - I believe there is already a allow expression from outside of this hon. Court as to what committee, whether it be a SeaCat Committee, or some the concerns are out there and I believe we have a Shipping Committee, already in existence within

Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T693

government, so if there was a problem or members had a The Speaker: Mr President, I initially, when I read the • problem, then surely to bring that committee back into play agenda, was not too enamoured about the terms of the would be the sensible thing to do. motion that is before us. However, having listened to the But really we have not talked to the company in depth, speech made by the hon. member for Ayre and we have not really talked about problems and the issues acknowledging the amount of research that he has evidently that the hon. member quite rightly, Mr Quine, has. I agree undertaken in preparing himself for this afternoon, I think with him, and there is nothing wrong with his views and the issue is not a question as to whether a committee should his concerns because I have to be concerned, representing be appointed, I think, as the hon. member for Rushen has the biggest part of the tourist industry in the Isle of Man, implied, that there is a need for a committee to be appointed and I think that we really do need to have concerns. But to inquire into whatever can be inquired into, and I am like I said, I would like to give the new company an sorry to leave it as vague as that but I think at this stage we opportunity to address members of this hon. Court and just do not know as to what information might be or indeed put forward their proposals before we start going down might not be available. the road of a select committee of Tynwald. A date has been fixed of July 1996 in terms of the motion on the order paper. It could well be that anything that is Mr Corrin: Mr President, I would suggest that not only presented at the July sitting of Tynwald might have to be is it desirable that there should be a formal contact with necessarily by way of an interim report. We just do not the Steam Packet Company in whatever shape or form that know. shapes up in the future, I would have thought that it is I certainly do not think that the possibility of merging Tynwald Court's responsibility to have that formal contact the interests of what is proposed on the order paper with and not by way of having a chat but by way of having a the remit of what I can euphemistically describe as the formal meeting where the proceedings hopefully would SeaCat Committee is even anywhere near the starting • be recorded so that the future can be charted. Now, who blocks. The question that really must put that one to bed is can blame the company in the future if there is no contact the fact that the remit of the two committees is so from government, no interest shown by the Island? Well completely different. then, you can hardly blame the company for planning the The other point that was made by the hon. member for future as it sees fit. Douglas East, Mr Kermode, related to the fact that the But there are very serious questions, and some of them new managing director, the person appointed by Sea have been outlined, about future services and so on, but Containers to manage the operation, has indicated that he equally there could be some worrying aspects. It would not be impossible to operate the Isle of Man Steam Packet wants, as soon as presumably arrangements can be made, Company as we know it, say, from Heysham so that the to meet the members of Tynwald, and the suggestion was vessels are actually leaving Heysham and sailing to the made that it might well be better to await that meeting and Island and when you think of the small number of vessels then see what arises out of that. I do not think that the two that we now have normally based on the Island, then that concepts are necessarily mutually exclusive, at all, and would not to be a great change. One could envisage SeaCat indeed I would go further. I would have thought that a Scotland and here again if we are showing an interest it three-man committee that, as it were, is attempting to hone may well be that operations presently operating from in on the issues that are to be addressed is likely to be across, one of their divisions or whatever, could be based much more governed by the subject which is before it than and taken under the wing of the administration here on the by 34 members of Tynwald sitting in a room and firing Island which would safeguard the employment of present questions at the new manager of Sea Containers. I am not employees and/or perhaps build up the company greater saying that that should not happen but I do not think that on the Island to provide administration for their services they are mutually exclusive in any way. • across. But if we show no interest and perhaps others do So it seems to me that there might well be an argument and perhaps bearing in mind who owns the Heysham port for appointing a select committee. It might well be that itself, there are good reasons why he could rationalise and the outcome of its deliberations could be premature at this use his own facilities, his own offices and so on and so stage. We will not know until such time as they have been forth, it may well be that the administration of the Steam given an opportunity to investigate the issues. But I think Packet could leave this Island, with subsequent loss of it is better to at least have attempted rather than just to sit employment. Now, it is too late then for us running down down and await the passage of time and let us see what is the road and saying, 'Hey, Mr Sherwood, what are you up going to happen in the future. to?' I think we should be down there, we should have a I think also finally I would say this, that the view that continuing dialogue, we should show interest in what he has been expressed that this should preferably be a is doing and present the wishes and the concerns and a parliamentary as distinct from a governmental committee better future as we see it for the Island provided by the does have some merit. company. So I do feel that everything could be gained by a Mr Bell: Mr President, I can remember on many committee of Tynwald Court and that is so that the Court occasions, in fact virtually every occasion, the times that itself would be well informed, perhaps better informed, the Steam Packet has been debated in this hon. Court where and with that confidence that goes with it so that this major members are scrambling in competition with each other concern, which has been referred to as the lifeline of the to get on their feet to debate the point and we would have Island, is in fact protected to the best of our ability. had a gallery full of people in response as well. I think it is

Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited • — Select Committee — Motion Lost T694 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 a sign of the times how much things have changed in I am not an expert in stock exchange matters myself relation to the Steam Packet over the last few years and but it does also strike me that there may be some limitations • perhaps a reflection of the equanimity with which the on the amount of information that the Sea Containers group takeover has been received by both this hon. Court and could give to any select committee at this particular stage also by the public outside. There has certainly been far which might put it in conflict with its legal responsibilities and away less reaction from the general public than I to the stock exchange. If that is the case, then whatever certainly would have expected a year or two or three ago. this committee sets out to achieve, no matter how well Having said that, the sea services to the Isle of Man meaning at this particular point, may be quite unobtainable obviously are absolutely critical and I have, I suppose, been for that particular reason, not because of any at the forefront of criticism of the Steam Packet in the last obstructiveness on the part of Mr Sherwood or any of his few years, with very good reason, I believe. Nevertheless colleagues, but simply because stock exchange rules will I now believe, and whether Mr Sherwood's promises will not allow information to be given to a third party which is be delivered or not remains to be seen, but I do believe the not available, as I understand it, to their shareholders first. new regime is in power and it does deserve a period of So I think there may be a very major hurdle there that we time at least to get its act together, to get its structure worked have to overcome if the aim of this particular select out and to be able then to come back to us and present to committee was to be achieved. us their proposals for the future. There may come a time, perhaps in the not-too-distant It is very tempting at times like this, though, obviously, future, when a select committee might be felt necessary to to go for a select committee to give the public the be set up to look at things further, if in fact the standard of impression that the government is actually doing service and the attitude of management perhaps deteriorates something. I think that is a false impression. We should beyond what we are prepared to accept. I have to say not be doing things just for the sake of it. If we are going personally I have not found any indications of that so far to take action it should be something which is meaningful and all the statements made by the various people related • and is going to have some end product to it (A Member: to the company have been very positive in terms of what Hear, hear.) and I do not believe at this particular juncture, they are prepared to offer to the Isle of Man and the fairly sympathetic though I may be to the sentiment behind the positive and optimistic view that they take in viewing their resolution itself, this is the way forward at this particular own long-term development and relationship with the Isle time. of Man. There are two concerns or perhaps three concerns that I have to say from a personal point of view my great dictate that view in my mind. The SeaCat Committee has disappointment over the last few years has been the fact been referred to. I do not honestly see the relevance of the that Mr Sherwood has not taken a more active role and SeaCat Committee to what has actually been proposed in interest in the development of the company, not the fact this particular resolution, as the hon. Mr Speaker has stated that he has been taking over. If he had engendered the same himself. Their terms of reference are really quite different amount of enthusiasm and ideas that he seems to have in and the SeaCat Committee presumably will go on and the short time that he has been in control of the company continue its deliberations quite apart from the management from the early days, then I think the Isle of Man would be changes and ownership changes which have taken place a much better place for him, but time will tell whether I in the company. am right or wrong on that. But it does seem to me that quite apart from that there But I do think at this particular juncture it is still very is already a committee in existence which ought to have early days after the takeover was announced. It is still been investigating and debating and discussing this actually being put in place. I do think all parties, ourselves particular change for several weeks now and that is the and the Sea Containers group and indeed the new Council of Ministers' Shipping Committee which I assume management of the Steam Packet itself, need a short period • is still in position. The whole rationale behind the of time to settle in, to consider where they are going, to establishment of the Shipping Committee was simply to identify some of the problems that they may not even have monitor developments in the shipping business on the Isle been aware of and then to look as to how they will develop of Man and I would have thought that with these changes their policies in conjunction both with the Isle of Man having taken place so recently that committee would have Government, with the Manx tourist industry and indeed been in session on a fairly frequent basis and discussing with the shipping traffic to and from the various parts of progress with the new management and the new directors the Irish Sea because that is where I see great opportunities and new owners of the Steam Packet so that at least the for the Isle of Man long term. But that obviously is going Council of Ministers are fully informed about what the to take some time to work through. situation is and it might be more helpful to members if the I would urge hon. members not to set alarm bells ringing Council of Ministers through the Chief Minister could give at this particular juncture and say that we are having an update on the discussions and negotiations which have particular problems. I think as an initial observation we taken place with the Steam Packet Company over the last are entering a period of challenge which could bring quite few weeks. That might be more immediate in its production hopeful and optimistic results for the Island in the not- of information to members and also perhaps a bit more too-distant years ahead. It is something I think we should reassuring to let ourselves and the public know that the be cautious about at the moment, to avoid unnecessary Council of Ministers has in fact been monitoring the criticism or undermining that present system, until we have situation. had a clear idea of where we are going. If it is going wrong

Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T695

at that stage, then set up the committee but from today's should be letting them get their feet under the table and point of view I would urge hon. members to reject this examine what is going on in the company to find out how • they can improve the services to the Isle of Man and by particular resolution and ask the Chief Minister perhaps to report at some early stage to hon. members the anything we do that could cause a delay or uncertainty in deliberations of the Shipping Committee and perhaps bring that issue I do not think that we are doing the Isle of Man us up to date as to how he sees things going through that a service. particular medium. Thank you, Mr President. Now, it is not as if there is not a way of getting the answers and I have to say I think it legitimately is quite Mr Brown: Mr President, I think the hon. member for clearly a matter where government can report back, as East Douglas, Mr Kermode, made a point and has been already it has, through the statement from the Chief echoed really by the member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, when Minister, on where the company is going, at the appropriate he said that he thinks it is premature at this stage to go times. down this road of having a select committee and I do think All I can say is that since the announcement of the we need to be very careful or we are in danger of again takeover there has been that meeting, and the new proposed getting to the position where we tend to get at the Steam managing director, Hamish Ross, has been in touch with Packet: regardless of what goes on, let us find out what my chief executive on a number of occasions, one about the Steam Packet is up to. And I would remind members the TT, one is about his views on the future in certain ways that the Chief Minister made a statement in another place that he thinks the Isle of Man needs to deal with the way and I think Mr Lowey made a statement also in another forward, and I know that they are being very keen. place after a meeting between the Chief Minister, Now, the argument will be, and has already been to some degree, well it is the lifeline of the Isle of Man and I accompanied by myself and the Minister for Transport, understand that, we all understand that, but one has to ask with Mr Sherwood and his managing director elect or the question on the other side of it. The airlines are very whatever you call him - important to the Isle of Man. We did not set up a select committee when British Airways took a great influence in Did you count your fingers after you Mr Delaney: Manx Airlines. We have not set up a select committee shook hands? because another airline has come in to provide another service which may or may not be detrimental in the longer Mr Brown: - and the other people that were involved term to the Isle of Man and hopefully, and I am sure, it and in fact they advised us as to how they saw the future will be positive but who knows? The same principles are for the Steam Packet and the Chief Minister made a all there about services to and from the Isle of Man. statement to the House to explain what went on then and So the question has to be, why do we not let the new in fact the hon. mover has referred to that. people, if their takeover is confirmed, get their feet under All I can say is that in the meeting that I had with those the table to look at the whole situation, do the thing that people, whether it is them or whether it is anyone else but the hon. member for East Douglas said, which they have in this case it was them, they were very positive, they saw already promised to do, which is to come and meet all potential for the Isle of Man. They are there to make money. members of Tynwald and to discuss with them what they It is a private company and if you do not want them to be would like to see? I can only say that in our discussions a private company, then that is a different question, but it that we had with the people who are going to be on the is a private company. Its future in those terms is in the ground here, which was the managing director, his view hands of their shareholders but certainly their commitment was that he is sensitive to the views of members in the Isle and their statements they have made since they have come of Man and the people of the Isle of Man and therefore he along to take over the company have been very positive would be interested to have the opportunity to discuss it and I would have thought would have been very comforting with members totally and I think that is very important. for many people and I have to say that the views that I But the other thing that was mentioned was whether or have received personally from most people have been not we are going to lose control from the Isle of Man of `Thank goodness: hopefully now it will settle down the management and all this sort of thing, and I have got a company and we will get somewhere where we want to copy of a press release here which was issued from see it going, we will get some better services.' Now, Bermuda on 1st April 1996 by Sea Containers Limited whether or not that will happen is a matter for time. and in there on the third page there is a paragraph and it But I think the question that has to be examined is what says and I quote: 'The company announced last week that is the select committee going to do? Now, the hon. mover it has acquired a controlling interest in the Isle of Man has given us a list of things that he thinks we should ask Steam Packet Company and the board of that company questions on. I would suggest, with the greatest of respect, has recommended to its shareholders acceptance of Sea most of those questions at this stage have been answered Containers' offer for the remaining outstanding shares. Sea through the statement that the Chief Minister has given, Containers' plan is to consolidate all its Irish Sea interests that in fact the detail the hon. member wants to go to is in into the Steam Packet Company. Those interests include danger of tying up new management before they even know the profitable SeaCat Scotland ferry service and the equally what they are going to be able to answer in that way, and I profitable port of Heysham. The Steam Packet company have to say from my point of view in trying to ensure for had poor results in 1995 but these were exaggerated by a next summer, 1997, this is the planning time for the large severance bill, wind-up of a loss-making freight company, for the new people, and now is the time we service and failure to retire an unneeded passenger vessel.'

• Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost T696 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

Now, the point there is that they have already made a Now, what I am worried about today is which side we statement publicly worldwide that they, Sea Containers, should go on because to me I can see both sides. I can see plan to consolidate all their interests into the Steam Packet • the situation where, if this proposal is supported today, are Company. Now, I would have thought that that is good we just being seen to be doing something? But on the other news. We know that they have interests in terms of land in side I am concerned will it be seen outside that we are not the Isle of Man, down by their harbour area, we know there doing something and that the situation will be that the is the potential to develop office accommodation there, executive could be in an embarrassing situation over this because it has already had permission in principle, I think whole affair because it does seem quite crazy that here we it is, for that to be developed and I just have to say we are are tied up with the linkspan that the taxpayers have spent in danger of giving the wrong signals if we act too quickly millions of pounds on and we have a user agreement and on this one. one of the fundamental principles of giving this licence is Now, the hon. member Mr Corrin said the danger is we have no control over who owns the licence that has that we would be showing no interest from the Island to been given by the Government of the Isle of Man. the company. I have to say, nothing could be further from So the problem I have, and I would be interested in the truth. The Chief Minister, myself and my colleague what the mover says in his reply, is whether we can allow the hon. Minister for Transport in our meeting were very ourselves to be lulled into a situation of, well, we can trust clear of our interest and I have to say, and do not forget the executive. Will it happen once again that we will have that Sea Containers have been involved in this company a situation that we have been found in an embarrassing now for quite a long time, they are very well aware of the situation, that this company has been taken away, the keen interest from Tynwald, by members of Tynwald and ownership has completely changed within months of us by the public of the Isle of Man in the affairs of the Isle of giving this government licence for years to come where Man Steam Packet Company. the taxpayers paid a fortune? And that is something that So all I would say is, let us be careful, let us not overreact concerns me, concerns me greatly. Can we allow it? • and let us recognise, and I certainly recognise, the general It is all right the hon. member for Castletown saying, view has tended to be, that I have heard, that people oh well, we have not done anything about this new airline welcome something to sort out and settle down the Steam that has come along. But the difference is there is Packet Company and in fact are saying to me they hope it will move forward now in a positive way and I just believe competition as far as the airline services are concerned. that this hon. Court should really be in a position to say, There is competition there. The point of the matter is you let us keep an eye on it, we have a system to keep an eye have managed to make sure that there will not be any on it through government. The Chief Minister, I am sure, competition as far as this is concerned because you have on appropriate occasions and when necessary will, if tied up the linkspan as far as its practical use is concerned. necessary, advise members of what is going on. But again, So there is a totally different ball game from dealing with as the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr Kermode, said a new airline that is coming in to the Isle of Man and the there has already been the offer of an opportunity to meet Steam Packet who have virtually got a situation where they with these people and that should come first before we have got the benefit of our user agreement. I think there is make any other moves at this stage and I hope members a different situation. will just give this matter a bit of time to settle down. I find it very difficult to know what to do. I opposed the SeaCat select committee because I said it was only Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am a little bit concerned window-dressing and was a matter of getting the executive with this debate because we hear people talking about there off the hook and I am concerned that if we go down this is a select committee to do with the SeaCat and that that road can we trust that this will not be seen that we are just somehow is a part of the equation of this item here in front going to lie back and think of England as far as this of us today, when it is not. The reality of the SeaCat select company taking over? • committee was a matter of a Dutch auction where we had to be seen to be doing something and it was better to have Mr Delaney: Think of Bermuda! a select committee looking at the SeaCat than doing the thing that should have been done and that is regulating Mr Karran: Or think of Bermuda, as you say. The off-Island transport in the first place. I find myself in position is I think the mover needs to clarify what he wants difficulty today on this thing. As I said, I think that the out of this because I am very concerned about just saying, SeaCat Committee was a matter of having to be seen to do well, it is premature because, as I say, what sort of vibes something. I think it was like the Law and Order are going to be given to the company as far as this is Committee, it was set up because it was something that concerned? had to be seen to be doing something at the time, and I am concerned will this proposal in front of us just be seen as Mr Cannan: Mr President, this resolution in no way is if we are doing something as a matter of window-dressing? getting at the Steam Packet. This resolution is a resolution But on the other side of the coin, what concerns me is for investigative purposes, for the people of the Isle of the fact that the executive must have a certain amount of Man, for this Court to find out what the future policy is concern that we purchased a linkspan, then we had to justify now that the company is in completely new ownership. the linkspan by the user agreement and we have the get- The seagoing lines of communication for this Island are out clause that was never put in the user agreement of any so important and have been debated in this Court now for sort of control over the ownership. 12 years, ever since the Sealink line came first in 1979

Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T697

and then there was the takeover of the Steam Packet that I do not think it an easy matter to attract new users, • company in 1984-85. It has been continuously debated. but we do own the linkspan, it is available and it is ours But what this resolution is seeking to do is to put on a and I make no apology at all for purchasing and putting in formal basis by terms of a select committee with the powers place that linkspan or the agreement. of a select committee and to have it formally taken down The hon. member Mr Karran suggested that we and formally report back to this Court of questioning, of overlooked the fact that the company might be taken over. what the people of this Island in their commercial dealings, That is not the case. That matter was very clearly identified their private dealings can expect in the way of a sea service. and a conscious decision made. The agreement is with the It is so important and that importance has been spelt out company. The ownership of companies such as the Steam for the last 12 years and to say that, well, a chit-chat meeting Packet changes from time to time. That was recognised of 30 MHKs or members of Tynwald in the Millennium and I do not believe really this situation is a surprise to Room with a few slides and so on is going to be a formal anybody. policy document, that is no way to give confidence to the I have to say the only people outside of this hon. Court Isle of Man. We have had those previous meetings in the who have spoken about this takeover to me have been Millennium Room. We have had them with Juan Kelly supportive of it and they see benefits in it. I hope they are and David Dixon. We have had them with Mr Sherwood right. What has been indicated to us is that there is an present. But they are not formal meetings, they are not opportunity for this company to make an investment in formally recorded and they are not there as a policy the company and in the Isle of Man and again I would go statement by the shipping company of how it proposes to back to the words of my hon. colleague: we have to provide its services to the people and the business encourage that. It is in the interests of this Island to encourage that investment, to create that investment and community of the Island. The people are entitled to know, the right environment for it. I do not believe this select whether they are running hotels, guesthouses, commercial committee, if it is set up, will provide that environment • businesses or the individual traveller, and as the Speaker against which to invest. has said, it will be having merit in that it is a committee of Mr Speaker said that this select committee could inquire the legislature rather than statements from government or into whatever can be inquired into. I agree with him. It is a sub-committee of the Council of Ministers. It is so very difficult at this stage to speculate and I hope hon. important and if history is anything to go by over the last members will accept that. We can speculate, we can 12 years, this, I believe, is the correct course of action. hypothesise, all sorts of things and I rather think that Sea Containers will have a broad strategy, but they do not know Members: Vote! what they will be doing in two, three or four years' time. That depends on all sorts of outside influences and I believe Mr Walker: Just before we do vote, Mr President, I that if a select committee is set up it will have a difficult think I would just like to make a very short contribution, agenda, as suggested by Mr Speaker, I think it will be very sir. I agree with Mr Speaker, or my initial thoughts were difficult indeed to identify the particular issues that shall the same as Mr Speaker's when I saw the agenda paper, be taken up and I think in all truth Sea Containers will that this resolution was one that probably I could not have a great deal of difficulty trying to respond in a definite support and I have to say, unlike Mr Speaker, the opening way to questions of intent for very far into the future. remarks of the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine, did not I do not believe that a select committee will be useful at persuade me otherwise. I do agree with my hon. colleague this stage. As far as the SeaCat select committee was Mr Corrin. He said we should be showing an interest and concerned, that was set up as a matter of urgency some we should be encouraging the new owners of this company. five months, almost six months ago. I think it indicates I do not believe that the way to encourage and show an how long these inquiries take and it indicates the • interest in a new company and new investors in the Isle of background against which members also have this Man is to set up a select committee to investigate them, commitment, this work commitment at the moment. I do with the powers that a select committee will have, the not believe that a select committee would encourage this powers of investigation. The possibility of further company to invest and I am not convinced that we should regulation was suggested by my hon. friend Mr Karran. support it. This is the sort of background against which this select committee will be set up and I am sure that as far as Sea Mr Delaney: Mr President, after 20 years of the Steam Containers are concerned, the new owners of the Steam Packet in this hon. Court we now see the last pieces of the Packet Company, they will not view the setting up of a jigsaw, worn out probably, being put into place. At the last select committee as encouraging or supportive. I would time of the debate of the SeaCat, when I mentioned the be very surprised if that were the case. fact that it was only the greedy left, I was challenged by I have to say that I am still pleased we have got a user Mr May when he said that the members of the staff would agreement. I believe we have a much more secure future not be very happy to hear me say that. Well, I have news with it than we would have had if that had not been in for him, which he now knows: 49 of them staff are no place. I am still pleased that we have invested in a linkspan longer there to say anything and most of them called at and that we are the owners of the linkspan and if the Steam my house to try and ask me to protect their jobs when they Packet Company do not honour the agreement, then the were going. So now we have a reduced number now. linkspan is ours and can be used by other people, whoever I have been asked today on behalf of the 340-odd people, they are or wherever they are, and I have indicated before who are pensioners in the Isle of Man from the Steam

• Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost T698 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

Packet, who are protected somewhat in law on the pensions, Now, let us talk about what they are getting from this to make sure that their pensions are secure, one of the things deal that this committee should look at. They estimate the • for the committee to look at, to make sure that the assets value of the company at the value of the shares, which are secure and do not tell me, 'Oh, of course it will be all includes, by the way, the shares we put back on the market right.' Let us make sure it is all right. when we had the original deal about controlling our lifeline I have been asked today to say what is going to happen this end. That is all included in the package. He now owns contrary to the statements, because we have had lots of that end of the bridge, Heysham; Maggie Thatcher gave statements. The present directors of the company made him that. He has now got ours for 15 years this end and he promises. They made promises about ships. They are all has got the middle of the bridge. This Tynwald Court at out of the window now. We have got a new set of promises least should know what the cost of getting across that bridge because there is a new player on the field in a major way. is going to be to the public, these 72,000 souls who have He is there on the field and his promises, how much are to pay the price of getting across it. they worth to us? I honestly believe Mr Sherwood has an The members of the Industry Department should have easier time of eating this company up than the walrus had an idea what his policy on freight is going to be, because when he came to eating up the oysters, a much easier time. if you look at his freight policy in Europe he ain't the Some members here today have said this is nothing to cheapest. You have a look at what is going on. The naivety do with the SeaCat Committee. Let me tell you, it is very of some of the ministers because they have had the pleasure much to do with the SeaCat. If you listen and read what of meeting them, the rest of the Tynwald members have was said by the present directors, of why they dropped the not and to be honest with you, if you did meet them at this SeaCat, it was because of the huge charges that were being stage, what could they tell you? But the committee can levelled against the company by this same now new owner find out and look at what has gone on and possibly find - £6,000 a day is the rumoured price - that firstly bled the out where we are going, and it is no use having little cosy profits of the company with their losses from the North chats privately with members of Tynwald as individuals • Sea, to leave them with nothing, and as they would not or little groups. That is not going to solve the problems. take a SeaCat which is lying idle the cheapest way of him The Isle of Man Steam Packet, as I have said before in getting the SeaCat back in service and getting the six grand this Court and for a number of years, is a Manx name only. a day is to take over what is left of the company, stripping The few Manxmen left down there are very few indeed. the assets, which includes a £4 million at least piece of The Bermudan company that now controls it will control land down at the harbours, and other assets, Fort Street. it for its ends and we have a duty to make sure that anything What is going to happen to their jobs? Forget about this it does does not damage the 72,000 souls we are responsible `No more redundancy, lads.' What is going to happen to the local fellows at Fort Street? Because they have got a for. He says in the document and the Minister for Tourism big engineering works over there at Heysham. Do you think they are going to have both? What about those guys, what quoted it, but he did not quote the other pieces and there is left of the Manx staff? Don't you think they are entitled were pieces missing from it, very significant pieces missing to have somebody look after their interest? When you talk from it. I will give it you in a second. about meeting this man, this wonderful chappy, wonderful The press release says he is going to have two Manx business man, I grant you, did you bother to ask him what directors. He has got to if he wants to hold a Manx company happened when he got down to the Cinque Ports in the south here, a registered company, as I understand it, he has got of England? Did you bother getting anyone from our very to have some Manx directors, even just to have a superficial excellent services, from the Clerk's office and the library, idea that there is somebody in the Isle of Man knowing to look out what happened when he took over down there? what is going on. He has got to have it. But we should I asked the Minister for Tourism about counting his know through a committee what the real deal that is going fingers after he met him and I have no doubt at all in saying on is. We should know, for the benefit of those few souls • that, I have no worry about saying it, because I am not the left and for the benefit of the 72,000 people on the Isle of first. Do you honestly believe things are going to stay nice Man. and cosy in this Island? That is so naive. We have seen The things that they have not said and the thing that what has happened before. In this letter which was printed they have not said is that we will have SeaCat on back on 1st April and then filled in by hand with our names on next year. Have no doubt about that. That is the main reason he said he intended to meet us. Did anybody in this Court that the takeover was brought forward. I am on record as get a letter saying that they were coming anyhow to the saying it would happen, but it was brought forward because Isle of Man and were you available to meet them? He can he has got a derelict ship, virtually, out there that he has say what he wants in a letter, that he intended to meet us, got no use for and the present directors refused to take it but the meetings with the Steam Packet took too long, but on because of their responsibility to the present he never wrote to us, he never wrote to the Chief Minister shareholders, because it was bleeding the company. Now even, that I know of, to say that he was coming to the Isle he can take it on board because he is the company. That is of Man and would he care to meet him. It was after the the situation. That is one of the initial factors in this. We deal was done because, as the member for Ramsey said, will get the fast craft back, the SeaCat. We do not need a there were some restrictions in relation to the stock SeaCat Committee. It is coming back next year. I have no exchange rules, but do not try and lie to us at this early doubt about it. But what we need to know is what comes stage, because that is what he has done already to you. He after that. Will we be going back to Liverpool, as the has lied to you, it was an afterthought, a good PR exercise. member has pointed out? Will we be using it? Why should Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited • — Select Committee — Motion Lost TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T699

he? He gets his landing fees at Heysham; he gets them at of view that the information may not be available within • Heysham. He does not need to go to Liverpool any more. the company for us, I can subscribe to Mr Kermode's point Holyhead - he will have his own facilities down there. We of view. I am sure there is a business plan and I am sure he know this, so why should he have any expenditure knows exactly what he is going to do. He would not go to whatsoever outside of his own services? And this is what all this trouble and all this expense if that were not the this committee should look at. case. Trying to be naive enough to think that this is not going Mr Kermode has also said, of course, why can't we to have any effect on the people that are left in the Isle of wait and have this meeting which has been promised for Man and those few people left working for them is the the members of Tynwald? Well, I think that is an important height of naivety. It is going to have an effect: it is going point. If, as the Chief Minister pointed out of course, Mr to affect all the hoteliers, it is going to affect all the business Sherwood said that the problem with meeting with us was people and it is certainly going to affect the cost of living that until matters had been sorted out vis-à-vis the stock in this Island on freight charges by sea. There is no doubt exchange, because there are all these offers current, of whatsoever about that. But the difference between what course he would not be able to do that and we know from Mr Sherwood has in the Isle of Man and what he runs in the information released today that the validity of those competition with to the French ports and the other ports is offers is going to run for almost another two months, so he has no competition here and do you honestly believe a the prospect, I would suggest, of us having a meeting with man with that record is not going to take advantage of Mr Sherwood or having a meaningful meeting with Mr having no transport competition? Do not be naive. Of Sherwood is not an immediate prospect. If he has a meeting course he is. That is the nature of the animal and so be it, with us at all it will be another slide show where we will but when we are aware of it we should make sure we can be treated to all the wonders of the world but not the try to control it. information that we need. As far as I am concerned if you do not go for the I thank Mr Corrin for his contribution. I think he has in several respects hit the nail on the head. Tynwald has a resolution and it turns up again, not to the satisfaction of responsibility and I do not think it can shirk that the Manx people, those that vote against it will be responsibility. It is all very well certain members saying responsible for it. Have no doubt about that. They will be here today, 'Oh, government can make the running on this responsible, because they were naive enough, like other and we can wait and see how Mr Sherwood comes up, people have been in the past, to accept bits of paper and how Sea Containers come up with their plans.' It does not nice promises, which Mr Sherwood has a track record, in alter the situation as far as the people outside are concerned my opinion, of never keeping. there. It is Tynwald's responsibility and it is us, the members of Tynwald, who will be held to account. The President: The position, hon. members, here is I Again I think, quite contrary to the point that has been am afraid I must express my concern at the tone of this made by Mr Brown, I take the view of Mr Corrin. Mr debate (Members: Hear, hear.) and I think if I was an Brown suggests, I think, and more or less infers that if we entrepreneur I would cut and run. However. were to show an interest and started to ask questions it could be misread and a damper would be put on the Mr Lowey: Yes, absolutely. company in terms of its proposals. I believe that is far from the case. I am sure the prospect of the sort of damper we The President: Does any other hon. member wish to can put on his proposals has already been considered and speak to the resolution? Reply, sir. has already been stored away. But what is important, I think, is the point made by Mr Corrin and that is that if we Mr Quine: Thank you very much, Mr President. Mr take a negative position, if we are manifestly disinterested Kniveton, I think, made an important point. We are not in what he is going to do, then I think that could be misread discussing the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company per se because obviously, whatever his present intentions are, he we are not discussing Sea Containers per se, we are would be more inclined to push at the margins for discussing a vital lifeline, sea lifeline. That is what we are something more, and I agree with Mr Corrin that with an discussing and I think that is something that we would do investigation of this sort I cannot see what there is to lose well to bear in mind. but I believe there is everything to gain, simply because Now, Mr Kermode, in his contribution, suggested that we would be seeking to obtain information, better and it was premature because the company may not know further information. exactly what they are going to do yet. Well, quite honestly, Again I thank Mr Speaker for his support and I agree if you were a company of the size of Mr Sherwood's with Mr Speaker. I too see this as a committee which would concern, Sea Containers, and you had been endeavouring set about trying to determine the situation, trying to find for 10 years to acquire the ownership of the Isle of Man out just what is the plan, what are the developments that Steam Packet Company, a company worth less than £50 are going to take place and how are they going to affect million, even £50 million, and perhaps not such a great the Island, and I see nothing wrong with that. In fact I sum in the eyes of Mr Sherwood, you would not go into think Mr Sherwood would think that we were absolute that sort of an enterprise unless you had fixed very clearly idiots if we did not push for that information and push for in your mind precisely what you intended to do having it early. purchased or acquired control of the Isle of Man Steam Again Mr Speaker raised the question of the meeting Packet Company. So I cannot accept that, from the point with Tynwald and he quite rightly said that the meeting

• Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost T700 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 with Tynwald and the information that would be sought otherwise end up with in any case. So I think, with respect through this committee are not mutually exclusive, or to to Mr Karran I would ask him to support the motion put it the other way, they can be processed in parallel, and • because I believe that nothing but good can come out of it. I agree with him; that is the proper way. To what extent we can provide the answers, that remains Mr Bell has said, of course, we should await proposals. to be seen. With the greatest respect to Mr Bell and I know he has has not been in the past a great sympathiser as far as the Steam Members: Vote! Packet is concerned, but I would say this, Mr Bell, that it is a question of disclosure of information. Mr Sherwood Mr Quine: The Chief Minister, of course, is taking the already has formulated his plans. It is known. I cannot position that I would expect him to take. I appreciate that. believe that this move would be taken by a company of He is at least consistent. He says that we should seek to this size with the resources and the capability that he has encourage the new owners. I have no dispute with that got for forward planning and for financing without having and I do not believe for one moment that what I am quite specific plans for the development and use of the proposing would discourage the new owners. I do not see Isle of Man Steam Packet Company in his scheme of things, that. All this would be is, as I keep saying, is an exercise to so I think it would be foolish of us not to seek that get further and better information as to the plans and on information at the earliest opportunity and that we should that we can at least contemplate our position with greater not mark time. usefulness than we can at the moment. Mr Brown, of course, has opposed this and there are Again I am not going to comment on the user agreement, several points he makes there which I am afraid I cannot Chief Minister, you will be pleased to know that, but again agree with and I think on two of them already, but two he has repeated a statement he has made several times, matters I have not touched upon are these. Mr Brown said that it will not be easy to attract other operators. Well, one that the information we need has already been provided quick comment on that. If we have Mr Sherwood who has • by the Chief Minister. Far from it, and the Chief Minister, been attempting for 10 years to get control of the Steam sir, was honest enough to say that when he started his Packet it is not indicative of the fact that there is no interest statement. The Chief Minister, when he started his in the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company: the reverse is statement, made it very clear and he said, 'I may not have the case. anything new to add', and he went on to explain how little Mr Delaney has added a further question to the list of information was available now and he repeated to us simply questions which I had put forward as questions that I have some of the broad-brush statements which Mr Sherwood raised myself or which have been raised with me and that had made to him. That is not what I am talking about in is, of course, the question of land development in relation terms of a product from an investigation of this sort. So to the Steam Packet's assets, because there could be we have not been provided with this information from the implications for staffing arising from that. Surely we can Chief Minister and I think that must be quite clear to seek an answer to that sort of question or do we leave it everybody. and wait until there are further redundancies and then we Again I agree with, though, I forget which speaker it again start wringing our hands? was that referred to the line of comparison with the airlines. I regret that government have taken this position in There is no line of comparison. We are talking of an entirely relation to this motion, I do regret that, because quite different situation. We are talking of a monopoly in terms frankly it will be misread outside. It will be misread in of passenger and vehicular ferry services and we are talking relation to their interests, their commitment, already arising of one that is cemented in place through a user agreement. from the user agreement, it will be misread that they do Mr Karran, of course - I know how enthusiastic he is not wish information to be divulged and brought into the about the need to regulate our sea links and indeed I think public arena and I think that is to be very much regretted. he goes beyond our sea links. I understand his feeling in • Their position that they are taking pushes aside the relation to this matter. Indeed I have shared his views on a legitimate concerns of people outside as to what is the number of previous debates. But, with respect to him, I situation and how is it going to develop from here and the would just say two things really. First of all, the nature of least they could expect from us is to try to find some this motion is quite different. I would not anticipate in the answers from that. That is the least they could expect us to course of this motion we would be addressing directly do. Will we be successful? Will we not be successful? That issues such as those. Those are for another time and another remains to be seen, but at least we will have tried. day and some would argue that through the user agreement there is some form of control there. I would not subscribe So I believe that we should set up this select committee, to that view, but some would argue that is the case. But I that we should seek answers to the numerous questions would say to Mr Karran I believe that he is right in saying which are already in the public domain, some more of that we should not be allowed to be lulled into a state of which have been mentioned here today, and I think it would complacency, he is quite right there, and the suggestion be folly for us not to do so. I do believe that the public that we should simply mark time and see how things outside expect that from us as an absolute minimum, to develop is really synonymous with that position. If we are show an interest at least to that extent, and if we do not do just going to stand back and say, 'Oh, he is in control, let that, then I really do believe that our flanks will be more us see how it unfolds', I think we will end up with egg on exposed than they are at the present time. Thank you very our faces, perhaps more egg on our faces than we would much, Mr President.

Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Limited — Controlling Interest of Sea Containers Limited — Select Committee — Motion Lost • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T701

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution On behalf of the Department of Local Government and as set out at item 22 on the order paper. Will those in favour the Environment I have the honour to report on this • mentioned petition from Ramsey Town Commissioners, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. copies of which members have had in their possession for A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: some time. The petitioners are exercising their powers under section In the Keys - 48 of the Housing Act 1995 in making the town district of Ramsey Housing Byelaws 1995. It has been advertised. For: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, Corrin, Crowe, There have been no objections. Duggan, Braidwood, Karran, Kniveton and the The proposed byelaws impose certain restrictions and Speaker -10 obligations on the tenants of the authority's public sector houses and in particular they require tenants to keep their Against: Messrs North, Walker, Cringle, Brown, May, gardens and the areas surrounding their property in a tidy Cretney, Kermode, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, condition. These requirements are already included in a Groves, Corkill and Gelling - 13 tenancy agreement that the tenants have with the authority but the only penalty for non-compliance presently available The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails to carry is one of seeking possession of the property, which in most in the House of Keys with 10 votes in favour and 13 against. instances would be too draconian. Accordingly these byelaws seek to impose a maximum fine level of £400 on In the Council - conviction for failure to comply. In practice, of course, the normal level of fine would be considerably below this and For: Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe and Delaney - 3 it is not intended that these provisions would apply to the elderly or the infirm and in order to make certain of this Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, the byelaws contain a specific defence to that effect. Luft and Mrs Christian - 6 As I mentioned, they are derived from the Housing Byelaws 1992 made by the department and approved by The President: In the Council, hon. members, 3 votes this hon. Court. The department supports the introduction have been cast in favour of the resolution, 6 votes against. of such byelaws and accordingly I beg to move that Tynwald confirms the Ramsey Housing Byelaws 1995 and The resolution fails to carry. that such shall come into effect on 1st May 1996. Thank you, sir.

PROCEDURAL Mr Bell: I beg to second, Mr President.

The President: Now, hon. members, I think we have The President: May I put the resolution, hon. members, to take stock of the position with regard to our agenda and standing at item 23 on the order paper. Will those in favour we have one item left on this paper but we also have a please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes supplementary agenda and, really, is it your wish to carry have it. on or adjourn until tomorrow morning?

Mr Duggan: I think we should carry on, Mr President, BUSINESS UNDER STANDING ORDER 2.2(6) sir. — MOTION CARRIED

Members: Carry on. The President: Now, turning to the supplementary order paper I call upon the Minister for Local Government The President: Very well, if that is the wish of the Court, and the Environment to move. hon. members. Mr Groves: I thank you, Mr President. I beg to move:

That, under standing order 2.2(6), the following RAMSEY HOUSING BYELAWS 1995 business be considered. — MOTION CARRIED Thank you for your agreement to place this The President: Item 23, the hon. Minister for Local supplementary order paper before this hon. Court today Government and the Environment, please. and I would ask the Court to approve my resolution and I so beg to move, sir. Mr Groves: I thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Mr Bell: I beg to second, Mr President. That Tynwald confirms the Ramsey Housing Byelaws 1995 and that such shall come into effect on 1st The President: I will put the resolution standing at item May 1996. 1 on the supplementary order paper. Will those in favour

Procedural Ramsey Housing Byelaws 1995 — Motion Carried Business Under Standing Order 2.2(6) — Motion Carried T702 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Agriculture, has decided to bring in similar legislation. We have it. do not have any national administrative document which • proves that an animal is less than 30 months old. In view of this position the Isle of Man order before this hon. Court PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT today prohibits the sale for human consumption of meat from any bovine animal slaughtered after 18th April 1996 The President: The learned Clerk to lay the papers. which has reached that stage of maturity where it shows signs of more than one pair of permanent incisors unless it The Clerk: I lay before the Court: can be proven to the satisfaction of the government veterinary officers that the animal is under 30 months of Food Act 1996 - age. Beef (Emergency Control) Order 1996. (SD No. We could not bring this emergency control order before 209/96) this hon. Court any sooner because we did not have, as the UK had, legislation in primary form against which such Report - an order could be moved. Our controls lay within the Food Interim Report of the BSE Sub-Committee of the Act which I am delighted received Royal Assent this Council of Ministers. morning and the appointed day order for which has been laid before this hon. Court and it is under the Food Act Food Act 1996 - that we therefore place this Beef (Emergency Control) Food Act 1996 (Appointed Day) (No. 1) Order 1996. Order in front of this hon. Court this afternoon. I so beg to (SD No. 208/96) move the order, Mr President. Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. • Diseases of Animals (Prevention) Acts 1948 to 1975 - Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (Amendment) Order 1996. (SD No. 191196) Mr Cannan: Mr President, in supporting this order I would like to enquire how the Departments of Agriculture and Local Government are going to police the importation of Irish meat which I still understand is coming into the BEEF (EMERGENCY CONTROL) ORDER Island, or is Irish meat now to be banned? Because this 1996 —APPROVED order clearly states, 'No person shall sell for human consumption any meat derived from a bovine animal The President: Item 3, the Minister for Local slaughtered after the commencement of this order in which Government and the Environment. at the time of slaughter' et cetera, et cetera. But if meat continues to be imported from Ireland what check is there Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: by the Isle of Man authorities that this meat has not been derived from a bovine animal slaughtered, et cetera? And That the Beef (Emergency Control) Order 1996 be I would like this matter explained because while this BSE approved. scare has been going on I am advised that Irish meat has still been coming in to the Isle of Man. It comes in, it comes Following the recent report published by SEAC, the in in a container, it goes to a certain butchery store, it is Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee to the not inspected, as I understand it, and I would like some United Kingdom Government, and their recommendations confirmation hopefully to the contrary, it is not inspected regarding specified bovine offal controls, the United by Isle of Man meat inspectors or inspectors that are in the Kingdom Parliament introduced the Beef (Emergency • slaughterhouses and then it is sold on for consumption and Control) Order 1996 which prohibits the sale for human I believe it has been sold on for consumption at an Isle of consumption of meat from any bovine animal slaughtered after 28th March 1996 that has reached that stage of Man Government establishment and I believe that is correct maturity where it shows signs of more than one pair of and I would hope that the minister concerned would give permanent incisor teeth. This order, over there, was some explanation as to what is going on. amended on 4th April 1996 to enable an animal to be sold I believe this is very, very important, that if we are if it has more than one pair of incisors provided it could be exercising controls against the meat and slaughter of our shown by reference to a national administrative document own livestock, then I do not believe it is in the public to be no more than two years and six months old. interest for Irish meat to come in, of which there is no For hon. members' information, specified bovine offal check and for which we are just told there is no international is the brain, spinal cord, intestines, spleen, tonsils and certification and which is not even inspected by our own thymus of the animal. Consequently the Isle of Man meat inspectorate, and I hope that the Minister for Home therefore would be breaking the law in the UK if it were to Affairs will give some explanation on where this meat was sell meat which came from animals with more than two coming from that was fed into an Isle of Man Government incisors or more than 30 months old. department. The Department of Local Government and the Environment, in consultation with the Department of Mr Kermode: Take it to the police force! (Interjections) Papers Laid Before the Court • Beef (Emergency Control) Order 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T703

Mr Cannan: Mr President, there are a lot of you can in fact have an animal that will have the teeth that • implications in this order. The ongoing implications, as can be two years old and this is always the uncertainty of you have so rightly said, have been deferred until next going down a road like this, and naturally there is a great week because the implications are for the farmers who loss to the farmer if the animal is not two and a half years have stock that is now ready for slaughter - old but has to be going somewhere else. Now, on the Island, in the UK, bullocks anyway have The President: Hon. member, we are dealing with the what they call 'CID' and that is documentation which resolution that is before the Court at this moment and not certifies what age they are and so on and so forth. In the the one for next week. (Members: Hear, hear.) Now, the UK, because heifers do not get any subsidised payment, hon. member has commented and asked three ministers to then they have no identity documents. So that causes them give him an explanation with regard to Irish beef and I a problem. Now, on the Island here we have not gone down would point out that the minister in charge of this particular their road and therefore what we presumably will rely on resolution is the hon. member for Ramsey. mainly will in fact be an ear tag and for a number of years now all animals should have been tagged within three days Members: Hear, hear. of birth. So you should be able to inspect the herd books and look back and investigate that way. Now, if an inspector Mr Kermode: The Minister for Health will look at you is going to certify in writing that a particular animal may afterwards! have the teeth, or more than, rather, but is under two and a half years old, then some investigation is going to have to Mr Cannan: Thank you, Mr President. I will say no be done to certify the animal before it is killed, otherwise more except can we have some assurances, if Irish meat is the object of the exercise of not slaughtering an animal to continue to be imported into the Island, how it is to be over two and a half years old is going to be defeated. Now, policed in respect of the prohibition of sale of meat from how is this magic going to be performed? That is the older bovine animals? question I am asking you, otherwise the object of the exercise will not be achieved. So it is no use slaughtering Mr Corrin: Mr President, the object of this exercise in an animal and afterwards saying, 'Oh, it has got more teeth prohibiting meat from animals more than two and a half than are allowed' because then it has been slaughtered and years of age getting into the food chain is to give confidence it is slaughtered in the meat plant in which we are trying to to the public because it is over two and a half years, in fact say to the public animals over two and a half years do not well into the main, that the instance of BSE has been found get slaughtered. in the animals. So it is to give confidence and to try and Now, could the minister then say exactly how this put forward to the general public that, as far as meat is operation is going to be achieved? Is every animal going concerned, then they are receiving prime, wholesome meat to be physically inspected, in the mouth, by the government from a younger animal. Now, that is the object of the vet and/or are prior arrangements going to be made when exercise. animals are booked that the farmer claims has more teeth What concerns me even in this order, and I wonder if but in fact is not over that age and who is going to do that the minister could explain in detail because this is investigation and indeed will the investigations be carried important, is that in the Isle of Man case, and it may apply on via the herd books? I am aware that even now not all elsewhere too and certainly in Holland and places, they the herd books are up to date and it may well be that the have to slaughter older animals in a separate place and only resolution to that is to reject the farmer's claim if he that is again to demonstrate the prime product and that all has not got his books in order. They have had plenty of reasonable precautions have been taken that there is no warning. Many have done and run a good herd book where cross-contamination and that is why only in our case at they can trace the animal back to the time of its birth. I the meat plant they can rest assured, as far as assurance wonder if the minister could answer these questions and can be given on this issue, that there will be no animals details, otherwise the statement that only animals under over two and a half years old slaughtered there and two and a half years old are slaughtered at this plant can processed there. not be a true one. Now, I wonder if the minister could give in detail how that is going to be achieved. I entirely agree with it. I am Mrs Hannan: If other members have questions I am just asking how that is going to be achieved in practice. quite happy to leave it till later. There is a duty veterinary officer on duty up there all day long whilst that meat plant is slaughtering. That is nothing The President: Are there any further presentations new. That has been the case for years. Now, is he going to, regarding this? perhaps through the crush and the little struggles, we know, how you do it, look at the teeth of every animal prior to Mr Kaman: The only question I would like to ask, slaughter? Is he going to inspect that way? I am told he is Eaghtyrane, is that when the mover proposed this proposal not and that is why I am asking the question. Is he going to he mentioned about a tagging scheme and that it was not inspect that way and/or here it is being said that a piece of in operation. Can he tell me why has it taken so long to get paper will have to accompany that animal stating that it is this scheme in operation in the first place and has it been under 30 months old and that is because there has been a introduced now and if not, when will this tagging scheme lot of controversy in the UK as well as the Isle of Man that actually be brought in? • Beef (Emergency Control) Order 1996 — Approved T704 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

The President: Would you care to reply, minister? If Mrs Hannan: If I could clarify, it is the passports, 1st the hon. member for Peel wishes to speak at this stage. June. • Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. There is an The President: Would the hon. member clarify a little explanatory note with the emergency control order and it further? (Laughter and interjections) does state quite clearly that where an animal shows more than one pair of permanent incisors, unless a veterinary Mrs Hannan: Excuse me just a second. 'More officer of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and generally, I am pursuing with food retailers and Forestry is satisfied that it is under 30 months old, it is up manufacturers ideas for quality assurance schemes to help to the officers of my department to be satisfied that that is restore confidence in British beef. As a result, I am able to the case and documentation would have to be submitted announce that we are proceeding as a matter of urgency with that animal to prove that that animal was under 30 with arrangements to improve animal identification and months of age. We all know that persons' teeth erupt at traceability. I hope to be in a position to introduce a scheme different times and therefore this is something which my of mandatory animal passports for that purpose with effect officers have been working very diligently on, to try and from 1 June. That will make a valuable contribution to the gain this particular facility. To start with it started off as development of marketing strategies by retailers and one pair of permanent incisors and that was it, finished. manufacturers to persuade consumers that our beef is of When the animal is sent to the meat plant a statement the highest quality.' That is the UK this afternoon. has to be signed by the producer and it has to be a truthful statement and the information with that animal will have The President: I think that may satisfy the hon. member to be supported by the herd book. of the Council. The hon. member Mr Crowe. Not all animals are tagged. The system should have been in place, I think, in 1989-90. It has not been properly in Mr Crowe: Just a small point, Mr President. • place. Since being on the department I have been (Members: Hear, hear.) I do not wish to delay proceedings. endeavouring to bring in a system whereby it would be It just strikes me as very odd, the way this is drawn so policed. However, we have not quite got to that stage yet. widely, and the minister might like to comment on the fact Animals in the UK do have documentation. The that with every can of corned beef and every tin of stewed documentation is on steers. However, from 1st June the steak are inspectors going to go round all the supermarkets UK are going to introduce animal passports and hopefully and shops and clear out all the meat from products that we will be able to comply with that. That is from 1st June. So I can assure members that the tagging system and exist there? Because it says here, 'No persons shall sell the recording system on the farms should be, and it will for human consumption any meat derived from a bovine not be in some cases, but it should be satisfactory to satisfy animal slaughtered after the commencement of this order', my officers. If it is not, the two teeth will be what will and I think what he is trying to say is 'slaughtered in the decide anything. So I hope that explanation is satisfactory Isle of Man', but I think you have made it so wide that it for members. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. covers any shopkeeper selling any tin of corned beef. Thank you, Mr President. The President: Minister, would you care to reply? Oh, the hon. Mr Waft. The President: Now may I call upon the hon. minister to reply? (Members: Hooray!) Thank you. Mr Waft: Mr President, I just wondered if the minister would clarify the situation today in the UK. Apparently Mr Groves: Well, Mr President, if I might pick up the the Minister for Agriculture made a statement in the House last point first, because I do happen to know about that of Commons today and would that have any bearing on one, there is a difference between a bovine animal and • what is to be said this evening? meat, by definition, and a meat or beef product or preparation. What the hon. member refers to is a beef The President: Now, how do we deal with this product or preparation by definition and therefore is not situation? Who knows about what happened in the House included under the measures in this order which does, of of Commons today? I do not. course, come in under section 13 of the Food Act which we gave Royal Assent to this morning. Mrs Hannan: I have got the statement, if you would The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin, asked me to like it. make clear, and I am pleased to do so and I will do so in a minute when we move the report of the committee, that it The President: Well, hon. members, I think that at this is very much the intention to slaughter the animals removed stage what we have... Do you have any official information from the food chain over 30 months of age in an entirely or not from the House of Commons? separate facility from our modern meat plant. As we speak even, the old abattoir, and for the past week, has been being Mrs Hannan: Yes. got into order in order to operate as an isolated slaughter house for these culled cattle, `scapecows' as I call them, The President: In that case it might meet the hon. and the policy that we will have to follow. member's point if you were to tell us what has happened With regard to the points made by the hon. member for in this context. Michael, Mr Cannan, I think some of his comments

Beef (Emergency Control) Order 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 T705

regarding importations that may still be taking place from document and does not wholly fulfil the remit that we have somewhere in Ireland, because he said 'Irish' and I do not been given. The BSE situation is continuing to evolve and know whether he means Northern Ireland or southern there are significant developments in Europe and in the Ireland, are slightly off the beam as far as this order is United Kingdom which will have a bearing on the Island concerned, but certainly any importation that may be and which will take place over the coming weeks and allowed by licence, and currently none are being granted perhaps months. Recent remarks by the European Union by the Department of Agriculture, that comes in from Farm Commissioner, Franz Fischler, have added a further Northern Ireland, and I believe recent importations have dimension of uncertainty. Final conclusions and therefore come through a Northern Ireland abattoir, are of course final proposals for action on the Island cannot be presented subject to the United Kingdom laws which came into effect until these external developments have taken place. The on 28th March in terms of how animals go through their Isle of Man Government's response therefore is also meat plants and from 28th March no beast has been allowed evolving. through their food chain meat plant that is over 30 months We concluded our interim report last Friday but even of age with two teeth or not having a document. since then there have been further measures, and there will Certainly for myself I think the hon. Minister for be further measures, proposed by the Department of Agriculture has answered the comments raised by Mr Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry which will appear on Corrin. The answer is it is a combination of both in terms a subsequent agenda placed before a subsequent meeting of how the animals are checked, both by the signing of a of this hon. Court. document by the producer and intermittent checks by the For all the report's limitations, the sub-committee felt vets at the plant, and I would imagine it is going to be that it was important that it should produce an interim report rather like security in an airport but this is an evolving to this hon. sitting of the Court, as requested, as a means situation. The seriousness of it is understood by everybody. of briefing members on the BSE issue. I hope that members The Department of Agriculture is impressing upon the will acknowledge that whilst the report is necessarily producers the seriousness of the matter. Everyone incomplete, it does represent an honest attempt to meet understands how difficult it is but how important it is to our responsibilities and that it will at least provide a get it right and I think that if you have total understanding background to recent developments. in a matter with all concerned, the chances of it being right I should also perhaps explain the absence of a signature are much greater. on the report from the hon. member for Council, Dr Mann. I hope that answers the questions combined with the Dr Mann attended all our meetings except the final one answers the hon. Minister for Agriculture has kindly given and was off the Island then and when the report was signed. on my behalf and I so move this Beef (Emergency Control) I believe, however, that he is nevertheless in agreement Order 1996, Mr President. with the report's conclusions. We were appointed on 26th March and have met The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution frequently since our appointment. We have had, in effect, before the Court. Will those in favour of the resolution only about two weeks to produce the report and that period standing on our supplementary order paper at item 3 please included the long Easter weekend. say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We have had full co-operation from the various departments of government which are involved in the front line on this issue and we have been particularly pleased to BSE SUB-COMMITTEE — have access to advice from Dr Michael Painter, a consultant INTERIM REPORT RECEIVED in communicable disease control from Manchester, who is a member of the UK Government's Spongiform The President: Item 4, the Minister for Local Encephalopathy Advisory Committee, and Dr John Wardle, consultant pathologist at Noble's Hospital. Government and the Environment. We have not sought to canvas views widely within the agricultural industry and elsewhere. Day-to-day contact Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: with those in the industry has been maintained by the departments whom we, of course, have been meeting That the Interim Report of the BSE Sub-Committee regularly but we have been prepared to meet those who of the Council of Ministers on the Implications for the wished to raise matters with us. Health and Economy of the Island Community of the Recent We have included in chapters 3 and 4 of the report some Developments related to Bovine Spongiform general but scientifically based information on BSE and Encephalopathy (BSE) in the United Kingdom and the EU CJD. This is background information but hopefully it will be received and the conclusions therein be endorsed. help to explain in broad terms what is known about these two diseases. It will be apparent to members that there are This report is not being presented to Tynwald in quite gaps in the knowledge. These gaps will not be readily filled the way in which we, the members of the committee, would and policy is going to have to be decided necessarily in a like. We have not been able to circulate it to members in situation of incomplete knowledge. We cannot wait for accordance with standing orders, so members have not had complete certainty before we act. What is worth stressing the usual time and opportunity to consider the report. The at the outset is that no cases of CJD in the Isle of Man report is incomplete in the sense that it is an interim have been reported. e BSE Sub-Committee — Interim Report Received T706 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996

In chapter 5 we describe some aspects of the local beef We recognise that in scientific terms there can be no production and the consumption of beef and beef products. guarantee that Manx beef is safe, but that can be said of • In essence what we say in the chapter is this, that BSE has any food and in our view we can say, both as lay persons been found in Manx cattle, principally in the dairy herd, and on the basis of the best available scientific evidence, and where it has been found the animals have been that Manx beef is, in any normal understanding of the term, destroyed and have not entered the food chain; that there safe. are a number of factors which persuade us that this is There are on the supplementary order paper we now particularly unlikely that BSE-contaminated meat has consider and have just approved the Beef (Emergency entered the food chain from Manx-produced beef. Some 8 Control) Order and also the Beef Spongiform to 10 per cent of beef consumed on the Island comes from Encephalopathy (Amendment) Order 1986 made by the off-Island sources and there is a very wide range of products Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. These sold on the Island, mainly imported, which have a beef ensure, and they will ensure, that we keep pace with the content. increasingly rigorous regime which has been recommended We have set down in chapter 6 the measures that have by the scientists. been taken in response to the growing concern about BSE The second issue on which we are required to report is over the last eight years up to the latest scare. Suffice to the economy. Whilst we believe we have been able to report say these measures reflect the best scientific opinion in quite positive terms on the public and animal health available at the time of their introduction. In other words issue, the economy is altogether more uncertain. We can the Isle of Man Government and the meat industry have see in broad terms who on the Island is being and will be responded responsibly and consistently to the concerns affected by a downturn in the beef market. What we cannot expressed. predict is the scale and duration of that downturn, whether More recent events are briefly outlined in chapter 7 of what we are facing is a temporary or a permanent the report. It would not be an overdramatisation to say • phenomenon. Our conclusion, which is not intended to be that a crisis broke on 20th March when the ministerial an evasion, is that we must keep our powder dry. We must statements were made in the House of Commons in the await developments. We must remain flexible so that we United Kingdom. Since then the European Union has can respond appropriately to those developments and so imposed a worldwide ban on British beef. Other countries, that there should be some temporary support for the unilaterally, also imposed bans. The market for British beef industry during this period of uncertainty to make sure collapsed and subsequently the concerns about beef were reflected in falling demand in Europe generally for all beef that the industry is still in place and able to take advantage of whatever origin. The British problem had become a of whatever the final response is to be. Clearly this is an European problem. The Isle of Man, whether we like it or issue to which we will need to return in a later report. not, is part of the British beef industry. Half of our output The current debate in the European Union and the is exported, so the Island is inevitably caught up in this United Kingdom is on what slaughter policies should be scare even if local consumption is fully maintained. adopted in respect of British beef. The proposals offered There has been some recovery in demand since the so far by the United Kingdom appear not to have been initial scare, in part helped in the United Kingdom by some seen by the European Union as being sufficient for them fierce price-cutting, and there have been measures taken to lift their ban. Hopefully a sensible agreement will be in Europe and in the United Kingdom which have been reached before the review that is, we understand, to take aimed at stabilising the market. However, the European place in mid-May. The Island will then have to respond to ban on British beef continues and is unlikely to be reviewed whatever is then agreed. until the middle of next month. For the agricultural industry It seems likely that the slaughter policy that is agreed this is self-evidently a serious situation. We are right in by the EU and the UK will go beyond what is reasonably the middle of it and at this stage we cannot be sure what justified on public and on animal health grounds alone. It the outcome, in European and United Kingdom terms, will will be a slaughter which is aimed at restoring public be. As we have not got and cannot have the broader picture, confidence and at reducing the surplus of beef. For those we cannot offer a complete local solution. involved in the industry it will be a tragedy. To what extent Chapters 2 to 7 of the report are the product of some we will have to follow suit will be a matter for judgement basic research. In chapter 8 we provide some comments when the time comes. on the two main issues which we are required to address, Some proposals, based on current UK thinking as the namely public health, animal health, and the economy. Also hon. Court has heard, are in place but they may not be we discuss some related topics. Public and animal health enough. We need to acknowledge from the outset that any is our primary concern and I believe we can say with mass slaughter policy will have a substantial public cost justification that we have been reassured on a number of in terms of compensation. Details of this will need to be points. We have had no cases of CJD in the Isle of Man. worked out. BSE is strongly in decline in the Island with only four Whilst support for the industry will be necessary and cases so far this year. Our beef has been consistently no doubt what we do will be governed by the Tynwald produced to the highest health standards and there has been resolution on agricultural support measures of November rigorous official supervision at the meat plant. Manx beef 1995, there are nevertheless two caveats that need to be is being produced currently at a health standard which is made. Firstly, government cannot underwrite the whole comparable to the very best in the United Kingdom and in losses of everyone affected by the BSE situation. There is a meat plant that fully meets European Union standards. the issue of legitimate commercial risk and government's

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help must be confined to ensuring the survival of the whether they eat beef and beef products. For our part we • industry. Government support is not a substitute for a would be confident that if the meat came from our Manx market return. Secondly, we must also have regard to the meat plant, then there is little to fear. interests of the consumer and the taxpayer. It will not be We propose to stay in being as a committee and complete acceptable if he ends up, as a consumer, paying a price for the task that has been given to us and we will report back his beef locally which is substantially higher than the price as soon as we feel able to fully discharge our remit. Mr in the United Kingdom and if he is also, as a taxpayer, President, I beg to move. paying a level of support to the agricultural industry that is higher than what is being provided over the water. Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Before leaving the effects on the economy I should refer to the proposal, as I did earlier, to bring the old abattoir Mr Corrin: Mr President, I think many members will back into use for the slaughter of animals which are to be agree this is not the time of the day to launch out in a disposed of outside of the food chain. There are costs debate of this seriousness and there are several reasons. I involved in this too, as yet to be fully quantified, costs of am sure all members will want to get as much information works to the building, reinstallation of the equipment, about what the British minister, Mr Hogg, has had to say operating costs and so on. These costs will have to be borne in the House of Commons today because so much of what by government. However, we on the committee accept that happens in the UK, of course, impacts on us. So I do not it is important that a slaughter route completely separate think we want to launch on that. We want to take this from the meat plant is necessary in order that the public document, as I would describe it, as read and move on to may be assured that there can be no cross-contamination the next stage and study what has been said today and 1111of the food chain from animals which are not to be used especially so, Mr President, and I would warmly welcome for human consumption. your statement that there will be a special meeting of I would also wish to advise the hon. Court that a case Tynwald Court next Tuesday afternoon or next Tuesday has been forwarded to the United Kingdom Government anyway - I leave you to the details - to further consider as the basis of a claim for European Union funding. We this matter. I think that is timely and even then that again believe on the basis of the unique aspects of the BSE will be another stage because how the British government situation that this claim is justified. The European Union gets on with the EU at the end of the month is another regard cattle from the Isle of Man as part of British beef. matter again, so it goes on and on. But certainly by next They have imposed a worldwide ban on British beef which Tuesday we will be able to have a better assessment of obviously affects us. We should, we feel, receive a level how we should proceed in the meantime on the Island. of support similar to that which is agreed for the United Thank you, Mr President. Kingdom. I have referred to the temporary support measures being Mr Quine: Mr President, I appreciate that we are having offered to the industry and I will not go into the nuts and a special meeting of Tynwald next Tuesday and, as I bolts of these. They will be detailed in the paper from the understand it, orders will be brought forward, amongst Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry which we other things, to deal with the matter of interim support for will be asked to consider at a later sitting of this hon. Court the farming industry. Now, that is fine, but the problem is, next Tuesday and I think perhaps it is best if they are of course, we are going to be confronted with orders, and discussed in the context of what my hon. colleague has to orders we can either accept or reject, we cannot amend or say then. do anything about them and therefore there is a problem Whilst looking at the two issues of health and the here because unless we can be provided with some better economy which are our remit, we have looked at a number • information on current thinking in relation to what is going of other matters: whether CJD should be a notifiable to be proposed, then I am afraid the debate on these orders disease; the licensed and unlicensed importation of fresh next Tuesday is going to be, well, not pointless but not as meat; school meals and meals provided in other meaningful as they should be. I am just wondering, if these government institutions; whether there should be any orders are in draft, whether we could not be provided with restriction on the importation of beef products and some expansion on what is in 8.3 because, quite clearly, preparations; the disposal of BSE-infected animals; animal there are several gaping holes if what is on offer and what feedstuffs; and meat plant workers. Our findings and views will be brought forward to the orders is simply what is in on these points are set out in the report and I therefore will 8.3. I believe it is not, but this does concern me because not repeat what we have written. otherwise we are going to be meeting next Tuesday with a Our conclusions are interim. Frankly, they could be set of orders and we will be in a position where we either nothing else in the time available and because of the accept them or reject them and we will not be able to have continuing uncertainties about the future. In essence what any more meaningful input into them, and that does we have found so far is that we can be content on the public concern me. and animal health front that everything that needs to be done is being done and, as far as we can ascertain in The President: I wonder if I could help the hon. laymen's terms, our beef is safe, and as regards the member here. Orders coming forward or any motions economy, we must wait to see how the Europe-wide picture coming forward next Tuesday will be set out on a special develops and remain flexible so as to respond to that. In agenda paper which will contain items relating solely to the meantime it must be a matter for individuals themselves the work of the BSE sub-committee. Now, there will be

BSE Sub-Committee — Interim Report Received T708 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th APRIL 1996 items from the hon. member the Minister for Agriculture the hon. Court for that. It is just that we tried to get the who has indicated she wishes to table items, in fact she market going and I would have hoped that the Court could wished to table them today, but I felt the Court should have actually discussed it today so that they could have have appropriate notice and the hon. member has actually supported me on that because it did get the market undertaken to circulate the Court with all available going again, but I will hold off for another week on that information she has in respect of the orders at the earliest and hope that the auditors do not come down on me. possible date. That is quite correct, isn't it? So you have But if there are any matters with this report, we have an opportunity between now and next Tuesday to examine worked very hard on this report, meeting every day with the proposals emanating from this committee and as to the sub-committee and covering many items as the chair whether you accept the orders or not, that is a matter of the committee has pointed out to us in moving this report. entirely for you to determine, but I am indicating that every It is quite comprehensive at the moment but the committee help will be given to hon. members to have the information will continue to sit. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. that you require in respect of the proposals that will appear on that particular order paper. Are there any further The President: May I just clarify a point for my own observations? satisfaction. As I understand it, your report will contain proposals which you would be seeking the Court's Mr Cannan: Just one question on your latest ruling, endorsement for. So there will be an opportunity for the Mr President. If when we get these order papers before Court to accept or reject those proposals. the sitting of next Tynwald and as we cannot amend them and if they are unacceptable in the sense of what the order Mr Cannan: Or amend them. paper lays down in terms of compensation and so on, therefore it would require a separate Tynwald motion to Mrs Hannan: No. put an alternative to what is being put down on the order. Would you accept - The President: You cannot amend a report, sir, unfortunately. Now, are there any other points before I call The President: I think, hon. member, you will have to upon the minister to reply? Reply, sir. accept that any special sitting of Tynwald will adhere to the standing orders of Tynwald and if you have an order Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. It just occurs to which you dislike, I am afraid if it is a financial order you me that I did say in my remarks that the cases of BSE in cannot amend it, so you will either have a position of the Island are declining rapidly and we have only had four acceptance or rejection in certain cases. There will be no this year. I think we should make it clear that if there is change from normal procedure. another case of BSE in an animal, that animal is disposed of quite separately from the old abattoir which we are Mrs Hannan: Maybe I could just clarify that point, bringing into being for this slaughter policy of keeping Eaghtyrane. It is my intention to bring forward a report animals out of the food chain. That is quite a separate and it will not, to all intents and purposes, be an order at disposal method under the control of veterinary officers this stage. It will be a report seeking the support of this and with the farmer concerned. hon. Court to the agreement which we have entered into That said, I thank those you have spoken on the issue. with the Manx National Farmers Union, the Fatstock and It is a difficult one and we are all doing our best to get to the Milk Marketing Association. We have agreed that. The grips with it as it evolves and I present the report before paper is in being and I will endeavour to circulate it to the Court. members tomorrow. It does cover a lot of the points that have been discussed over the time since this particular crisis The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution broke. We have been in regular meetings with the joint standing at item 4 on the supplementary order paper. Will producers' working party, met them on alternate days. We those in favour of the resolution please say aye; against, have covered their concerns. We have not agreed to all no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. that they have been asking for but we have reached an Now, hon. members, that concludes the business before agreement of a full package. So what we will be presenting the Court. The Council will now withdraw and leave the next week is a full package of support. House of Keys to transact such business as Mr Speaker Now, obviously today in the House of Commons there may place before it. was a statement made and it covered a number of issues which my department will certainly consider when we have The Council withdrew. that information to hand but at the moment we have a report which we agreed with this joint working party last Wednesday evening and it is that document that I will be placing before Tynwald next Tuesday. So it is not orders HOUSE OF KEYS as such, it is a report which states the agreement that we The Speaker: Hon. members, the House will now have entered into with the producers for this full package adjourn to our own chamber at 10.00 a.m. on Tuesday, 23 and it is that report in total that will be placed before this April, 1996. hon. Court. It does cover a number of issues, some issues which have already necessitated the spending of finance The House adjourned at 7.53 p.m. without the support of this hon. Court and I apologise to

House of Keys