Wednesday Volume 673 18 March 2020 No. 43

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 18 March 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 983 18 MARCH 2020 984

£600 million shortfall in bringing the Northern Ireland House of Commons health budget up to speed. How much money exactly will be put into that budget to ensure that the health Wednesday 18 March 2020 system there is robust against coronavirus, and to build up the capacity that it ought to have so that it catches up with the rest of the UK? The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Brandon Lewis: As the hon. Gentleman will know, a key focus for the Northern Ireland Executive is how we PRAYERS improve, and how they improve, health support for people across Northern Ireland. Quite rightly,everybody’s [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] focus at the moment is primarily on not only wider health issues, but the specifics of dealing with coronavirus. The Executive have been hugely focused on that, including the Deputy First Minister, the First Minister and the Oral Answers to Questions Health Minister, all of whom I spoke to yesterday. That is where the focus is. There is a substantial budget—as part of the “New Decade, New Approach” deal, there is £2 billion of support for the Northern Ireland Executive, NORTHERN IRELAND and I hope that we will see a really improved health service for the people of Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State was asked— Tony Lloyd: The Secretary of State has to do better Budget 2020 than this. The amount of money that has been made available for coronavirus and health generally is not 1. Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): What enough for the needs of the people of Northern Ireland. assessment he has made of the effect of Budget 2020 on Will the wider moneys available guarantee support for the Northern Ireland economy. [901559] those who cannot get sick pay and cannot pay their rent, and guarantee that those whose small businesses The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon are under pressure will still be in business when we get Lewis): The Budget is a fantastic boost for Northern through this crisis? Ireland as we support the Executive to deliver on the public’s priorities, providing substantial investment Brandon Lewis: I say gently to the hon. Gentleman for Northern Ireland’s economy with an additional that there is £2 billion linked to the “New Decade, £216 million in 2020-21. The economy will benefit from New Approach” deal. As I said, last week’s Budget the announcements on tax cuts, including an increase announcements will provide £900 million for the coronavirus to national insurance thresholds and the employment situation. That is a substantial amount for Northern Ireland, allowance. Since the Budget, we have also heard yesterday’s on top of the money that the Executive already have. I announcement, which will result in an additional share his desire to see the Executive delivering strong £640 million for the Northern Ireland Executive, taking and good healthcare for Northern Ireland, and we will total covid-19-related Barnett consequentials to more work with the Northern Ireland Executive on that. than £900 million. Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): May I appeal PaulaBarker:NorthernIrelandhasthehighestprevalence to the Secretary of State, in his work with the Executive of mental illness in the UK. The Government pledged on the Budget and the economy, to have a strong focus money to Northern Ireland as part of the confidence on farming? It is at difficult times like this that people and supply arrangement to address those challenges, realise fully the importance of food security to our but that money has not materialised. What discussions nation, and to every family and household in this country. has the Secretary of State had with the Chancellor in We need to ensure that we look after our farmers in relation to that funding, and do the Government intend Northern Ireland and across the whole United Kingdom. to keep their promise? Brandon Lewis: My right hon. Friend, with her huge Brandon Lewis: The hon. Lady makes an important experience in this area, is right regarding the United point. We all want good support for mental health and Kingdom and particularly Northern Ireland. I held a to see people with mental health issues getting the right roundtable conversation with people in the agricultural support and healthcare. As I have outlined, we have a sector in the last week or two, looking at what we can do very substantial Budget for the Northern Ireland Executive, to ensure that they can be successful both now and as and I hope we will be able to see good provision. I spoke we go through the process of leaving the European to the Health Minister yesterday about covid-19, but Union, because food security is important for the United the issue that the hon. Lady raises is one of those that Kingdom. The agricultural sector is hugely important we will continue to have conversations about. in Northern Ireland, and I will continue to work with it to ensure that it is successful. Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): The link between health and the economy is now automatic because of the Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): The Secretary coronavirus situation. If I had been asking the Secretary of State is right to highlight some of the positive of State a question about health in Northern Ireland announcements in the Budget last week and yesterday’s two weeks ago, I would have pointed out that there is a emergency measures, but does he accept that a huge 985 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 986 opportunity was missed by not mentioning anything around the whole United Kingdom. I appreciate that about air passenger duty? The Chancellor said last Eastern is an important airline for connectivity around night that he will engage with the Transport Secretary various regions. A number of other airlines are looking imminently about what we can do to protect the aviation at picking up the routes for Belfast. We must also make industry. The loss of Flybe was hugely significant to sure that we have good connectivity with Derry/ regional connectivity, and the Government will have to Londonderry and other places around the whole United move on air passenger duty in the weeks to come. Kingdom. We will look to deal with that as quickly as we can despite the challenges of coronavirus, which will Brandon Lewis: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely make this a very difficult time for the airline industry, as right about the challenges, and we are very focused on per the Chancellor’s comments last night. ensuring that connectivity continues. This is a hugely important issue for us, and it is good that some of the Electric Buses routes that Flybe has vacated have already been picked up by organisations such as Loganair and Eastern—and 2. John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): What discussions he hopefully by others as we go forward. With coronavirus, has had with the Secretary of State for Transport to this is a particularly difficult time for the airline industry, ensure that new electric buses supported by the Government which is why the Chancellor and the Transport Secretary are built in (a) Northern Ireland and (b) other parts of are focused on it. I have spoken to the Transport Secretary the UK. [901560] and he is acutely aware of the importance of ensuring that we keep strong connectivity. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker): Northern Ireland is renowned for bus The hon. Gentleman is not entirely correct, in that manufacturing, including Wrightbus’s New Routemaster the Budget outlined that the Treasury is taking forward hybrid model, which is famously operating around London a piece of consultation work around APD. I understand today, and I know that the new owners are pioneering people’sdetermination to see that delivered; the Chancellor hydrogen technology. As part of “New Decade, New is very aware of it. We are very alert to the work that we Approach”, the UK Government are providing £50 million have to do, and we will continue pressing on the importance to support the roll-out of ultra low emission public of connectivity between GB and Northern Ireland. transport in Northern Ireland. I am in no doubt that Northern Ireland manufacturers will continue to lead Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): the way in developing these next-generation buses. The Northern Ireland economy is much more heavily based around the public sector than those of other John Spellar: I thank the Minister for that reply, and parts of the United Kingdom, and covid-19 may make it is very welcome that money is going to electric buses the situation even more acute. What further fiscal measures and, indeed, ultra low emission buses, including hydrogen can be taken, in anticipation of a post-coronavirus technology, but when I contacted my local bus company, future, to ensure that we redress that balance and make National Express, it confirmed that the 29 vehicles the Northern Ireland economy far more self-sufficient? already ordered are being built in Britain, but would not commit for future orders. It went on to express a hope Brandon Lewis: My right hon. Friend makes a very that capacity would grow with demand—not just from important point. Despite the challenges we that all face it, but from other operators. Does the Minister agree —internationally and here in the UK—due to coronavirus, that there is a real role for the Government here, and will there are really good opportunities in the wider economy he push for a whole of Government and industry approach for Northern Ireland. He is right about the differential to ensure that cash flowing into electric and low emission between the private and public sectors, which is one of buses benefits bus builders in the United Kingdom, the reasons why we have put such substantial support including Wrights in Ballymena? into the city and growth deals, which offer a huge opportunity for economic growth in Northern Ireland Mr Walker: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very and job creation through the private sector. Obviously, good point. As he will know,the Prime Minister announced we have the very substantial package that the Chancellor new funding to overhaul bus links in England and made announced last night, including some very important a commitment to at least 4,000 new zero-emission buses. and large numbers—circa £900 million for Northern Ireland We want to work with the industry to ensure that those —and I will repeat the point that the Prime Minister buses are flowing through to orders to all those UK and the Chancellor have made: for the benefit the United companies, including, as he says, Wrights in Ballymena. Kingdom, we will do whatever it takes. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I agree whole- Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): On heartedly with the question that has just been asked. On air passenger duty, I reiterate the concern about stresses an immediate strategy for bus builders and bus operators, on small and regional airports such as Belfast. What goes the Government could underwrite Transport for London, on in Belfast links with Southampton and Bournemouth. Birmingham buses, Translink and National Express, I know that the Secretary of State is very alive to this, encourage them to make the orders that they have but will he have conversations with the Transport Secretary already indicated that they wish to make over the next to find out when the review on APD will be brought year, and put at least £100 million of liquidity into forward? manufacturing in Northern Ireland and across the UK overnight. That would cost the taxpayer nothing— Brandon Lewis: I can assure my right hon. Friend that they are paying for this anyway—but it would allow the conversation between myself, the Transport Secretary manufacturers to continue and employees to have surety and the Chancellor on the issue is ongoing. We are very of employment and the ability to put bread on the table. focused on ensuring that there is good connectivity I urge the Government to adopt this strategy. 987 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 988

Mr Walker: I always listen carefully to the hon. These are unprecedented and challenging times for Gentleman’s representations, and I am very happy to many sectors. The Chancellor has announced a package discuss that with colleagues at the Department for of support for business and indicated further measures, Transport. Further details are being developed alongside if required, for the coming days. I will raise the issue of our national bus strategy, which we expect to publish the specific group mentioned by my right hon. Friend later this year, but I absolutely understand the importance the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) of the issues he raises and, as I say,I am happy to undertake with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and that discussion. Rural Affairs. I assure my right hon. Friend that my hon. Friend the Minister of State has been dealing with Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol this and met that group recently, and we will continue to take this forward. 3. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with representatives of Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): On a recent the Northern Ireland business community on the Ireland/ visit to Belfast, EU officials and Michel Barnier made it Northern Ireland protocol and future trading arrangements quite clear to the business community that they expected with the EU. [901563] a hard border in the Irish sea and, secondly, that they expected the Government to start implementing the The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon things that need to be done to put that in place. Given Lewis): The Government are committed to engagement that the Government have a different interpretation of with the business community in Northern Ireland in the withdrawal agreement from the EU, will the Secretary relation to the protocol and our future trading arrangements of State assure us that no steps will be taken to put a with the EU. I have had the opportunity to engage with physical, administrative or electronic border in the Irish a range of business representatives in Northern Ireland sea, which would disrupt trade between Northern Ireland in recent weeks, and I look forward to continuing and Great Britain? positive and constructive discussions in the weeks and months ahead. Brandon Lewis: The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am happy to be very clear about this. Alex Cunningham: The Secretary of State says that We are determined to deliver on the agreements not there will be no border down the Irish sea or across the only in the protocol, but in the Good Friday/Belfast island of Ireland. The fact that the Government are agreement, so that we ensure there is no border between intent on diverging from existing standards, however, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and means that checks of some sort will have to take place there will be no border between Northern Ireland and in Northern Ireland. What kind of checks does he think Great Britain. Northern Ireland is part of the United will be necessary? On the basis that there will be very Kingdom. There will be no hard border in the Irish sea. real barriers to trade, will he take personal responsibility for the ensuing mess? Abortion Services

Brandon Lewis: The hon. Gentleman should have more 4. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) faith in our ability as a country to deal with technical (Lab): If he will make an assessment of the effect of the matters. We are considering the best way to ensure that collapse of Flybe on the ability of women in Northern we implement the protocol, and we will discuss that Ireland to access abortion services in England. [901564] with the EU in the joint committee—the specialised committee created under the withdrawal agreement, The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin which will meet for the first time very soon. We are clear Walker): The Government have been engaging on this that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom issue with the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, which and we will have unfettered access. is contracted to provide booking services for women travelling to England to access abortion services. Flights Mr Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): have been rebooked for anyone affected by the collapse I am sure that we all wish to give our best wishes to my of Flybe to ensure access for women and girls. The hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), Government continue to fund all the costs of the procedure, the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, including travel and, where needed, accommodation. who is making good progress following hip surgery. We are also working closely with the devolved I hope that I will not have to deputise for him for much Administrations, the Department for Transport and longer. airlines to identify opportunities and to encourage them What discussions has the Secretary of State had with to act quickly to fill routes that are vital for local those involved in the Lough Neagh eel fishery, who communities and business. As my right hon. Friend the face the triple challenge of an uncertain trading future Secretary of State mentioned, a number of routes have with the European Union, the effect of the coronavirus already been taken up. on their important markets in Belgium and Holland, and the possible re-designation of the European eel Dame Diana Johnson: I thank the Minister for that under convention on international trade in endangered answer but, of course, abortion was decriminalised in species regulations once we have left the European Union? October 2019 and we now see the lost opportunity of this medical procedure not being provided over the last Brandon Lewis: I add my good wishes to my hon. six months in Northern Ireland. The failure to do that Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), means that we are now in a much more difficult position who is recuperating. I have been in contact with him with covid-19. Has the Minister given any more thought this morning; understandably, he continues to take a to what other action he could take to ensure that services keen interest in the issues of Northern Ireland. are available to women in Northern Ireland? 989 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 990

Mr Walker: The Government are under a clear duty 10. Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): What steps the to deliver abortion reform for Northern Ireland, consistent Government are taking to strengthen the Union between with section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. [901573] etc) Act 2019, which requires that evidence-based protocols are adopted for the provision of services in Northern The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Ireland. Those regulations will be laid, and the deadline Walker): The Government have made it clear on many for that is the end of this month. occasions that we will never be neutral in expressing our support for the Union. I believe that the UK Government Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): In working with the restored Executive to continue making the current circumstances, the priority of my party is to Northern Ireland a great place to live, work and do protect human life, including that of the unborn child. business is one of the best ways we can strengthen its The Minister will be aware of concerns expressed by place in the Union. As part of the Union, Northern members of my party, including the First Minister, about Ireland benefits from being part of the world’s sixth the decision to press on with regulations on abortion in largest economy, and that allows for the pooling of Northern Ireland, despite the Assembly being restored risks and the sharing of resources to fund public spending, and this being a clear breach of the devolution settlement. such as on defence, education and our national health Will the Minister heed the calls from Northern Ireland service. politicians for this matter to be dealt with by the Assembly, not this Parliament? Ben Everitt: These are unprecedented times and our Union is incredibly precious to us. I am sure that the Mr Walker: I recognise the strong views on all sides Minister will join me in welcoming the additional powerful on this issue. I also recognise the constitutional challenge, financial support for Northern Ireland from the UK but the deadlines within which we have to act were clearly Government that was announced by our right hon. set by Parliament. It was clear that if the Assembly was Friend the Chancellor for Northern Ireland to deal with not in place by the deadline in October, the Government covid-19. would be under a legal obligation to lay the regulations by March. That is the obligation under which we are acting. Mr Walker: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a strong package of measures to support the UK Customs economy at a very difficult time. The Chancellor has said that the Government will do “whatever it takes”. 5. Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): What Yesterday’s announcement, as we discussed during last steps the Government are taking to ensure consistency night’s Adjournment debate, will result in an additional in customs regulations throughout Northern Ireland £640 million for the Northern Ireland Executive, taking and Great Britain. [901565] the total covid-19-related Barnett consequentials to more The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon than £900 million. Lewis): Northern Ireland is in, and remains part of, the Mary Robinson: In the absence of a functioning United Kingdom’s customs territory.The protocol makes devolved Government in Northern Ireland, the Northern that clear. It ensures unfettered market access for goods Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 made it a moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, and legal requirement for the UK Government to implement the arrangements we introduce will reflect that. We will an abortion framework before the end of March this discuss the implementation of the protocol with the year.The Government are yet to respond to the consultation EU at the joint committee later this month. that they set up to inform the framework. However, in Wendy Chamberlain: At a time when many people the spirit of devolution, does my hon. Friend agree that have sadly been thrown into economic turmoil, it is now that the Northern Ireland Executive is up and incredibly important that wherever the Government running, this should rightly be a matter for the devolved can eliminate economic uncertainty, they do so. There is representatives? no area more clouded by uncertainty due to our departure from the EU than the Irish border and its regulatory Mr Walker: The Government understand the strength future. Given that the Government have committed to of feeling about this issue. We have always been clear doing “whatever it takes”, will the Secretary of State that the best way to bring forward reform in this area commit to removing that uncertainty by extending the would have been for the Executive and Assembly to Brexit transition period by one year? take that forward in the best interests of Northern Ireland. However, the Government are under a clear Brandon Lewis: I do not think that anyone around the legal duty, which this House put on it, to make regulations United Kingdom would thank us for extending the that provide lawful access to abortion services in Northern period. The election was very clear in giving us a mandate Ireland by 31 March 2020. To comply with the legal to deliver on our manifesto pledge to leave the European requirement, we will shortly lay regulations in Parliament. Union, and we are determined to do that. The certainty It will be a matter for the Department of Health in that we can give to business is that Northern Ireland is, Northern Ireland to commission the new services. will be and will always remain part of the United Kingdom’s customs territory and will have unfettered access. Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): I know the Minister will agree that underlying the strength of Northern Strengthening the Union Ireland are commitments to the Good Friday and Stormont House agreements. This morning the Secretary of State 6. Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): What made a statement about legacy. That seems to override steps the Government are taking to strengthen the the need for five-party consultation on this matter, and Union. [901567] to override the need for co-operation between the 991 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 992

Governments here in London and in Dublin. When will The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon the Secretary of State come to the House so that he can Lewis): Wecontinue to consider the best way to implement be questioned on this matter of enormous importance the protocol, and I will be discussing that with the EU to the future—if you like—of the Union, and certainly in the joint committee and specialised committees. I am to stability in Northern Ireland? in frequent contact with the Prime Minister as we prepare for these meetings. Mr Walker: Our commitment to the Good Friday agreement and its successors is absolutely intact and Gavin Newlands: Last month it was extensively reported 100%—and the Secretary of State is, of course, answering that the Prime Minister had ordered his officials to “get questions in the House today—but it is also clear that round” the Northern Ireland protocol. I accept that his the first step we are taking on this is to engage with the Government have said that they will comply with their parties and, indeed, with the Irish Government. That is obligations, and rightly so. Can the Secretary of State clear from the written statement that the Secretary of tell the House whether the Prime Minister said those State has published. words, or anything remotely like them?

Environment Strategy Brandon Lewis: I always find it best not to take as writ whatever rumours may be picked up in any newspaper 7. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What discussions article. What can be taken as writ is what we have said at he has had with representatives from the Department of the Dispatch Box and what we have said as a Government. Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs on the There will be unfettered access between Northern Ireland development of a Northern Ireland environment strategy. and Great Britain, and Northern Ireland is part of the [901568] United Kingdom’s customs territory. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker): The UK Government are committed to prioritising Anne McLaughlin: What discussions and consultations the environment. As a world leader in tackling climate has the Secretary of State had with the new Northern change, we are the first major economy in the world to Ireland Executive about the protocol, and what specific—I legislate for a net zero target. Following the restoration emphasise the word “specific”—input will they have on of the Northern Ireland Executive, Northern Ireland its implementation? Ministers have been in contact with Executive Ministers Brandon Lewis: Obviously I talk regularly to the on a range of issues. The Department of Agriculture, Northern Ireland Executive, particularly the First and Environment and Rural Affairs, which leads on Deputy First Minister. I currently speak to them several environmental issues in Northern Ireland, has recently times a week on a range of issues. We have discussed sought views on an environment strategy for Northern the protocol, but we will also be discussing it with the Ireland, and I understand that a summary of its findings European special committee. We are determined to will be published in spring this year. deliver on the protocol in a manner that ensures that Kerry McCarthy: In its submission to the consultation, there is no border down the Irish sea, and that there is Sustrans said: unfettered access for the whole United Kingdom. “It is unacceptable there is no specific climate change legislation in Northern Ireland” Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): I know which the Secretary of State will agree that the coronavirus crisis is causing deep and genuine concern to businesses, “would allow specific policies to be developed to meet emissions communities and individuals across Northern Ireland. targets and adapt…to… risks.” Given that burden and the current real uncertainty, Given the close connection between the climate emergency does he not also agree that now is not the right time to and the natural environment emergency, is it not time impose new customs and trading arrangements in Northern that Northern Ireland was able to legislate so that it Ireland, and that the Brexit transition phase must now could develop its own climate strategy? be extended well beyond the end of this year? Mr Walker: The hon. Lady has raised an important point. We want to work closely with the Northern Ireland Brandon Lewis: I refer the hon. Lady to the answer Executive on this issue. Clearly these are devolved issues, that I gave a few moments ago. The British public want and I think that the Executive’sresponse to the consultation to see us deliver on our promises, and the Prime Minister on environment strategy will be key to addressing that is rightly determined to ensure that we do that. The best question. certainty that we can give businesses in Northern Ireland is that, as part of the United Kingdom, they will Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol continue to have unfettered access, and to benefit from the trade deals that we seek to establish around the 8. Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) world. (SNP): What recent discussions he has had with the Prime Minister on the implementation of the Ireland/ Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Can the Minister Northern Ireland Protocol in the European Union further outline the plans in place to ensure that, post (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. [901571] December 2020, the UK works and moves as one entity and that Northern Ireland is not precluded from alignment 9. Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP): with its biggest market, mainland GB? What recent discussions he has had with the Prime Minister on the implementation of the Ireland/Northern Brandon Lewis: We are absolutely determined to make Ireland Protocol in the European Union (Withdrawal sure we deliver the protocol in a way that, as we have Agreement) Act 2020. [901572] said, ensures we deliver on our word that Northern 993 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 994

Ireland has unfettered access to Great Britain, is part of Today people are mourning the loss of loved ones, the United Kingdom economy, is part of the United and many more will be suffering from the effects of Kingdom customs union and will benefit from our coronavirus, including those already losing work or trade deals around the world. losing their jobs who are worried about whether they can keep a roof over their head. Our greatest thanks Mr Speaker: Order. I would like just to make a very must go to the frontline medical and public health staff short statement. who are fighting to combat the spread of the disease, to Those watching our proceedings will have noticed the public servants, particularly postal workers, who that our attendance today is significantly below the have made such sacrifices today, and to the cleaners normal numbers. I have discussed with the usual channels who are providing vital support. We must also thank ways in which we can limit the number of people crowded those working round the clock to make sure our shops together to ensure maximum safety. We are all doing and warehouses are stocked with the essential food supplies our best to keep Parliament sitting and to follow Public that everybody needs. Health England guidance. We on these Benches will do our duty to hold the Government to account. Together, we need to ensure that the most effective action is taken to protect people, PRIME MINISTER and it is in that spirit that I ask questions of the Prime Minister today. Every member of the public will make sacrifices in The Prime Minister was asked— the effort to stop the spread of coronavirus, but those on low pay, self-employed workers and small business Engagements owners are understandably worried. Sue wrote to me this week. Her family is in isolation, and she says the Q1. [901609] Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): If he will current £94.25 a week statutory sick pay is list his official engagements for Wednesday 18 March. “not enough to pay for their food shopping.” The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): The whole House Can the Prime Minister do what the Chancellor repeatedly will want to join me in paying tribute to Lance Corporal refused to do yesterday and pledge to increase statutory Brodie Gillon, a reservist medic of the Scottish and sick pay to European levels? North Irish Yeomanry, who was tragically killed in Iraq last week. My thoughts and deepest sympathies are The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman with her family and loved ones at this very difficult time. for the way in which the Opposition have approached This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues the issue generally and for the co-operation so far and others. In addition to my duties in the House, between our Front Benches on this matter. As he rightly I shall have further such meetings later today. says, this is a national emergency, and we are asking the public to do things and take actions in a way that is Rob Butler: Like many others in the United Kingdom, unprecedented for a Government in peacetime,and perhaps my constituents in Aylesbury are understandably deeply even unprecedented in the last century. concerned about covid-19, and I pay tribute to staff at Stoke Mandeville Hospital, Bucks social services and When we ask people to take action to isolate themselves everyone in the community who is helping those with if they or a member of their household has the disease, the virus or in isolation. Can my right hon. Friend or to take steps that jeopardise businesses and cause assure the people of Aylesbury, and everybody in the people to risk losing their job, it is absolutely right that, country, that the Government will take whatever action whatever their circumstances, we should ensure workers is needed and spend whatever money is needed to save get the support they need. So in addition to the package lives and protect livelihoods? of business support that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor outlined yesterday, we will be working with The Prime Minister: I join my hon. Friend in paying the unions and colleagues across the House, and bringing tribute to the staff at Stoke Mandeville and to all the forward further measures to support workers of all kinds staff in our fantastic NHS for the way they are coping throughout this crisis. at this extremely difficult time. We not only put another £5 billion into the NHS last week, as he heard from my Jeremy Corbyn: UK sick pay levels lag far behind right hon. Friend the Chancellor, but we will certainly those of European counterparts. The Scandinavian do whatever it takes and provide whatever funding is countries are giving many people 100% of wages during necessary to help our NHS through this crisis and, this crisis, and I hope that when the Prime Minister indeed, to support the whole country with Government- brings forward proposals on this they will reflect the guaranteed loans, as he will have heard yesterday. reality of people’s lives—you cannot feed a family on 90-odd quid a week. Those people are therefore putting Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Thank you for everybody at risk because they have to go out to work in your statement, Mr Speaker. I thank MPs for the very order to put food on the table. In order to claim responsible approach they have taken to today’s Question statutory sick pay, workers need to prove that they earn Time by sitting a suitable distance apart to avoid cross- a minimum of £118 per week, so I hope that when the fertilisation of this horrible disease. Prime Minister brings forward proposals he will give I also want to join the Prime Minister in paying tribute confidence to the millions of people who work in low- to Lance Corporal Brodie Gillon, who was killed in income jobs, are in insecure work or are self-employed, Iraq last week. Our thoughts are with her family and and will commit to extending very much enhanced friends. statutory sick pay to all workers. 995 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 996

The Prime Minister: As I have told the House before, This country is actually far ahead of manyother comparable of course we will ensure that nobody is penalised for countries in testing huge numbers of people. We are doing the right thing, protecting not just themselves but increasing our tests from 5,000 a day to 10,000 a day. It other members of society and making sure that our may be of interest to the House to know that we are NHS is able to cope. Clearly, statutory sick pay will, getting much closer to having a generally available test typically, be supplemented by other benefits, but I repeat that will determine whether or not someone has had the what I said to the right hon. Gentleman: as the state is disease. That will truly be of huge benefit to this country making these demands of the public and of business, it in tackling the outbreak. is only right that throughout this period we should be doing whatever it takes to support the workers of this Jeremy Corbyn: The World Health Organisation said country throughout this crisis. “test, test, test.” We should be testing on an industrial scale. When I met the Prime Minister on Monday Jeremy Corbyn: What it takes is a recognition of the evening, he assured me that 10,000 tests were going on social injustice and inequalities that exist in this country, per day. That is better than none, obviously, but it is and I hope that when the Prime Minister makes the nowhere near even the number of people working in the proposals on statutory sick pay levels that will be recognised. NHS and the care sector. It is a massive undertaking A quarter of the people who are most crucial to support and I wish there was a greater sense of urgency from the us in the crisis, social care staff, and almost half of Government in getting testing available for all staff. home care workers are on zero-hours contracts, so they NHS staff are obviously on the frontline, and many are therefore automatically not entitled to sick pay. By are scared because the guidance has been changed to not extending statutory sick pay to all workers, the say that they do not need to wear full protective equipment Government are forcing social care staff—the people who when caring for patients. A senior doctor has said: could, unwittingly, be transmitting the disease among “The rest of the world is providing staff with full protective the most vulnerable in our community—to choose between gear and we are restricting it”. health and their own hardship. This is a doctor saying, “I am scared.” We should not be Yesterday the Chancellor,unfortunately,offered nothing scaring doctors and nurses. Is there or is there not a to the 20 million people living in rented homes, including policy for them to have full protective equipment? I believe 3 million households with children. These people are that that should be the case. worried sick that they will not be able to pay their rent if they get ill, lose pay or feel that they need to self-isolate. The Prime Minister: Quickly, on testing, I can reassure It is in the interests of public health, of the health of all the right hon. Gentleman that we are moving up to of us, that people do not feel forced to go to work in 25,000 tests a day. order to avoid eviction when they know that they may On personal protective equipment for NHS staff, the be spreading this terrible disease, so will the Prime right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise the issue. Minister now confirm that the Government’s emergency It is obviously of huge concern to everyone that our legislation will protect private renters from eviction? NHS staff should feel that they are able to interact with patients with perfect security and protection, so there is The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is making a massive effort going on, comparable to the effort to a series of very powerful points, and I can indeed build enough ventilators, to ensure that we have adequate confirm that we will be bringing forward legislation to supplies of PPE, not just now but throughout the outbreak. protect private renters from eviction. That is one thing we will do, but it is also important that, as we legislate, Jeremy Corbyn: Generations to come will look back we do not simply pass on the problem, so we will also be on this moment and they will judge us—they will judge taking steps to protect other actors in the economy. us on the actions we take now. Our response must be bold and it must be decisive. The market cannot deliver Jeremy Corbyn: We look forward to seeing the details what is needed; only collective public action, led by of that, because we all represent private sector tenants Government, can protect our people and our society. in our constituencies and we know the stress that they That collective action must not allow the burden to fall are going through now. They need something to be said most on those who lack the resources to cope, as happened urgently about this issue, so I hope that the Government after the financial crash. People across the country do will say something as soon as possible. Today would be understand the need for temporary restrictions on our appropriate. way of life to protect us all, and we will work with the NHS staff and those who work in the care sector are Government, but the Prime Minister must understand on the frontline of caring for patients suffering from that that will require balancing action to protect the coronavirus. Sadly, however, those workers have no idea most insecure and vulnerable, in the interests of public whether they are transmitting the virus themselves—they health as well as of social justice. The health of us all may not be obviously suffering from it, but they could depends on the health of the most vulnerable, so I ask still be transmitting it—whether they are ill or not, and thePrimeMinister:willhestepupnow—nottomorrow—and what effect it will have when they return to work on the give support to those vulnerable people who live on the frontline. Will the Prime Minister please explain why margins of our society, who are vulnerable themselves the Government are not prioritising the testing of all and make us all vulnerable, and give them the support healthcare staff—those in the NHS and those doing and the assurance that they are desperately searching for such a vital job in the care sector? today? The Prime Minister: In point of fact, we are prioritising The Prime Minister: Indeed I can, and that is why we the testing of NHS staff, for the obvious reason that we have announced another £500 million to go straight to want them to be able to look after everybody else with councils to help them immediately with the needs of the confidence that they are not transmitting the disease. poorest and the most vulnerable; that is why we have 997 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 998 announced immediate cash injections into business, to What I would say on the right hon. Gentleman’s help them through an unquestionably very difficult appeal for basic income is, do not underestimate the time; and that is why will be bringing forward further value to people of the measures that we have already measures to ensure that every worker receives support announced that will support business, keep jobs going throughout this difficult period. and make sure those businesses continue in existence. Be in no doubt: the right hon. Gentleman is right to That must be the first step. As I have said repeatedly draw attention to the unprecedented nature of this now to the right hon. Gentleman, the Leader of the crisis. We are asking the public to do quite extraordinary Opposition, it is important that throughout the crisis things and we are asking business to shoulder quite we take steps to support workers. The right hon. Member extraordinary burdens. But the more effectively we can for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) is quite work together to comply with the very best scientific right and the suggestion that he makes is, of course, one advice, which is what has actuated this Government of many such suggestions. throughout the crisis—which is what has guided this Government throughout the crisis—the better our chances Ian Blackford: I thank the Prime Minister for his answer. of relieving the burden on the NHS; the more lives we There is a willingness from all of us to work together as will save and the more suffering we will avoid; and the we go through this crisis, but thousands of people are quicker we will get through it. Be in no doubt that—the already losing their jobs. It is happening today. Millions right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—this is an will face the same threat. They need reassurance and enormous challenge for this country, but I think the support, and they need it today. They need an income people of this country understand what they need to do guarantee. to beat it. They also, I think, understand that we will We must not repeat history. People are worried about beat it, and that we will beat it together. their bills and about keeping a roof over their head. In the last financial crisis, the banks were bailed out, but Q2. [901610] Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con): ordinary people were not. The Prime Minister has it in In November, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of his power to protect people’s incomes and provide them State for Health and Social Care came to visit us at with peace of mind. At this time, an emergency universal Bassetlaw Hospital in Worksop to see the excellent work income scheme would do just that. Will he at least commit done by our local NHS. We were delighted to hear of a to meeting all of us who support that proposal to discuss £14.9 million investment to upgrade our accident and how we can protect the incomes of all our peoples? emergency department. Will the Prime Minister update us on progress on that, and will he and the Secretary of State The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I can make that acceptaninvitationtoseetheworkwhenitiscompleted? commitment and I said as much in my earlier answer to the right hon. Gentleman. It is very important that, as The Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend we go forward, we try to enlist a consensus in this House on what he is doing for Bassetlaw Hospital. I remember about how to support people throughout the crisis. I going to talk to the wonderful doctors and staff at agree profoundly with what he said about not repeating Bassetlaw. They explained in great detail their fascinating history. It is very important that, as we ask the public to plan for improving service for their patients.I am absolutely do the right thing for themselves and for everybody else, determined to support him and them in their ambitions. no one, whatever their income, should be penalised for That is why we have already put £15 million into expanding doing the right thing, and we will make sure that that is emergency care capacity in Bassetlaw. My right hon. the case. Friend the Health Secretary is working intimately with Bassetlaw to take forward the whole project. Q3. [901611] Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I welcome confirmation that routine Ofsted inspections Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): I will be postponed, and will the Prime Minister join me associate myself with the remarks of the Prime Minister in commending schools, leaders and teachers on all on the killing of Lance Corporal Brodie Gillon. they have been doing in supporting families through This is an unprecedented emergency and it requires this crisis? an unprecedented response. I welcome the fact that parties across the House, and Governments across these The Prime Minister: I pay a particular tribute not just islands, have worked together as we attempt to protect to our amazing NHS, but to our teachers and everybody all our peoples. It is the right approach and it is the least who works in our schools for everything that they have the public expect and deserve from us. done to keep our schools going throughout this difficult Yesterday the Chancellor announced a £330 billion crisis so far. Of course we will do everything we can to financial package for business. Today the UK Government remove burdens on schools, and Ofsted is one in particular need to announce a financial package for people. Members that we can address. The House should expect further from six parties across the House have expressed support decisions to be taken imminently on schools and on for a temporary universal basic income to help everyone, how we make sure that we square the circle of ensuring especially freelancers, renters and the self-employed. that we both stop the spread of disease, but relieve, as Using the current tax system, will the Prime Minister much as we can, the pressure on our NHS. stand up and give a commitment today to provide people with the security of a universal basic income? Q5. [901613] Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab): My NHS colleagues on the frontline are already The Prime Minister: First, I want to thank the right stressed with the pressure that they face. Last night hon. Gentleman for the spirit in which he has spoken. I visited my father in a care home, and I am acutely Indeed, there is a huge amount of collaboration going aware that I may have fed him for the very last time. on across all four nations of this country,as you can imagine, We are in unprecedented times. I want to know where Mr Speaker. We are in lockstep. was the forward planning for PPE for our NHS and 999 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1000 care staff. Where is the testing for medics? Why are we that the whole of the country will bounce back quickly waiting so long for mass testing and why are social after this, but I say to him that after the floods and distancing measures merely just suggestions? Prime the poverty that we have historically suffered in the Minister, it is right that we have all put party loyalty Rhondda, communities like mine will find it phenomenally aside to work together during this time of national difficult to bounce back if he does not take that kind of crisis, but we must scale up the response. Without good action now. leadership, people in this country will start to panic. There must be no more time for delay. The time to act The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman speaks is now. powerfully and passionately and, in my view, wholly rightly for the people of the Rhondda. I can tell him The Prime Minister: I completely agree with what the that our thoughts in this Government are with the hon. Lady says, and I thank her for all the work that she people of the entire country in helping everyone to get does in the health service. I can certainly tell her that through this virus. We will do, as I say, whatever it takes we have stockpiles of PPE equipment and that we are to support business and, as I said in my earlier answer proceeding—it is very important for the House to to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, understand this—in accordance with the best scientific also to support individuals and families. I welcome the advice, and it is the timeliness of those measures that is agreement of the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and absolutely vital in combating the spread of the epidemic, Lochaber (Ian Blackford), the leader of the Scottish and indeed that is how we save lives. I am delighted that National party that we should do it on a cross-party basis. the UK’s approach has been commended today not just Engagements by Neil Ferguson of Imperial College, but by Dr David Nabarro of the World Health Organisation. Q6. [901614] Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): As Q4. [901612] Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): The the Member of Parliament for Grenfell Tower, I would weeks and months ahead will test us all and stretch like to thank my right hon. Friend for the additional society to its limits, none more so than the national £1 billion in the Budget for cladding remediation. health service, which is working day and night to care Moving on to today’s events, can he assure me that his for the sick and to save lives, but together we will get Government will do absolutely everything to support through this. Will my right hon. Friend update the the economy,businesses large and small, the self-employed House on his efforts to bring together a coalition of and individuals, including those on low income? Now is manufacturers to supply the NHS with the ventilators not the time to be squeamish about public sector debt. and other essential medical equipment it needs to treat The Prime Minister: I can certainly give my hon. Friend the most adversely affected patients during this pandemic? that reassurance. The Prime Minister: As the House will know, there is Q12. [901620] Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): already a coalition of British manufacturers that are I welcome the measures, but yesterday’s statement now working together at speed to supply the ventilators offered nothing for the self-employed. My constituency that we need. We already have 8,000, and we are moving of Vauxhallhasanestimated30,000self-employedworkers, rapidly upwards, and I will keep the House informed of and a lot of those people already feel the financial developments. pinch. They cannot wait days for the Government to Rhondda announce something, so will the Prime Minister today announceaguaranteeof measuresthatwillfullycompensate Q8. [901616] Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): If he will all self-employed workers in this crisis? visit the Rhondda. The Prime Minister: I repeat the answer I have given The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for several times to several of the hon. Lady’s colleagues: his invitation. I am happy to consider his invitation to we will do whatever it takes to ensure that all workers Rhondda and will take it up. are protected throughout this crisis. Chris Bryant: What I really hope is that the Prime Q7. [901615] Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Minister will look at the whole coronavirus crisis through Like so many colleagues, I extend my thanks to the the eyes of the Rhondda, because we have a large NHS and all the frontline staff, but also offer my thanks number of sole traders, chippies, electricians and plumbers. to the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Health We have a lot of people in very insecure employment. Secretary for their leadership in this crisis, which is We have got lots of people who are elderly and people warmly welcomed by many in my constituency.The news who are on very low incomes and have next to no from the major food retailers this morning was welcome, savings. Many people have already been laid off this but many over-70s and people who are vulnerable or week or are worried that they are going to be laid off in self-isolating will be concerned that they will still have the next fortnight, so we really do need the Prime problems with access to food and medicines throughout Minister to address these matters. this period. Will he confirm what the Government are If I am honest, I do not want to be partisan, but it doing to ensure that all retailers and pharmacists are does feel as if we are a bit of an afterthought. I really going to prioritise those groups throughout the whole of beg the Prime Minister to look through the eyes of the this virus crisis? Rhondda, because I think he would then double sick pay so that it is a sensible figure. I think he would introduce The Prime Minister: We are extending the hours in something like a summer version of the winter fuel which deliveries can be made, and we are talking right allowance so that the elderly get some help. I think he now with the Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating would probably introduce some kind of VAT holiday Committee about ensuring that pharmaceutical goods for sole traders. I know he hopes, and we all hope, get at the right time to the customers who need them. 1001 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1002

Q13. [901621] Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) small businesses precisely to protect the high street and (Ind): In response to covid-19, there are reports from the enterprise environment on which so many jobs across the globe of antiretroviral drugs being tested depend. alone and in combination with varying degrees of reported success. In light of that, can the Prime Minister advise Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I am sure the House what resources are being made available for that the Prime Minister will agree that protecting our drug security and development and clinical trials in the NHS staff at this crucial time is of maximum importance. UK? What efforts are being made by him for the UK to At least one GP surgery in County Durham this week work in concert internationally? Does he agree that the received surgical masks from the NHS with expiry dates prize on this occasion must be the victory and not of 2016 on the box. In other cases, labels had been stuck patents and profits? over the top, extending the expiry dates on the boxes. What assurances can the Prime Minister give not only The Prime Minister: I endorse completely the sentiment that surgeries get the equipment they require, but that it that the hon. Gentleman has just expressed about the is actually effective once they get it? need to do this collectively. The Government have announced a £46 million package of investment for The Prime Minister: To the best of my knowledge, all finding a vaccine. As I have just said, a huge amount of the equipment we are sending out is of the correct work is going into investing in test kits, and those are standard. I would be happy to look at the case that the changing and improving the whole time. The House will right hon. Gentleman mentions. As I said earlier, we be reassured to know that this work is being done at an have stockpiles of PPE, but are making huge efforts to international level. We are working with our EU partners, ensure that we have enough for the outbreak ahead. the G7, the G20, the World Health Organisation and Q11. [901619] Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) the International Monetary Fund—everybody is working (Con): The Chancellor yesterday unveiled a wide range together on the very issues that the hon. Gentleman raised. of measures to tackle coronavirus. Does my right hon. Q9. [901617] Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): Friend the Prime Minister agree that it is vital that we As my right hon. Friend has said, combating this virus do whatever we can to get through this as a country? will require a huge national effort to support doctors The Prime Minister: I wholly endorse what my hon. and nurses in hospitals, and community carers looking Friend has said. We will do whatever it takes, and we after the most elderly in their homes. Can the Prime will beat it together. Minister assure me, and my constituents watching and listening in Warrington South, that the Government Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): will do all they can to save lives, protect frontline NHS Apart from rent arrears, eviction from a private tenancy—a staff and keep the most vulnerable people in our society section 21 no-fault eviction—is the biggest reason for safe? homelessness. On Friday, I met a 77-year-old woman who had lived in her home for 15 years, and a couple The Prime Minister: Yes. My hon. Friend identifies caring for a sister with Down’ssyndrome. Both households exactly the three priorities of this Government. were due for eviction today. Will the Prime Minister ask the courts to stop section 21 evictions to take the Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): Defeating pressure off hard-pressed councils and these really worried the coronavirus must be the top—indeed, the only—priority families? for the foreseeable future. There is already huge anxiety across the UK. Businesses are facing unprecedented The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is absolutely challenges and uncertainty, so, regardless of leave or right to raise this matter, and that is why I said what I remain, how quickly will the Prime Minister recognise did to the Leader of the Opposition. We will indeed be the inevitable and seek at least a one-year extension to bringing forward legislation to address this point. the Brexit implementation process? Q14. [901622] Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con): In my The Prime Minister: Our priority is to deal with the constituency, we have enlisted voluntary sector providers coronavirus epidemic. The other matter that the hon. to join the council in providing support to the most Member mentions has, as he will know, already been vulnerable residents in combating the coronavirus. Can legislated for. the Prime Minister confirm that local authorities such as mine in Bromley, which are at the forefront of this, Q10. [901618] Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): will be given clear guidance in respect of safeguarding Like other town centres across the UK, Burnley has and Disclosure and Barring Service checks for volunteers, been seeing the evolution of its high street through as that will allow us to deploy more volunteers when mixing retail with leisure, which plays a significant role and if the need arises? in increasing footfall, and supporting small and medium- sized enterprises. With that in mind, I thank the Prime The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Minister and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor for right, and that is why we are speeding up DBS checks, the measures announced in the Budget and yesterday. so that they can be done in 24 hours. I want to thank Will the Prime Minister commit to doing whatever it and congratulate all the boroughs throughout this country takes to support our SMEs, so that once we get through for the way they are harnessing those volunteers. this challenge our high streets can buzz once again? Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): The The Prime Minister: I can indeed confirm that that is Prime Minister talked about supporting families. Will exactly why we have cut business rates. We are making he show his solidarity for households headed up by a very considerable sums available for small and very single breadwinner with dependent children? Saturday 1003 Oral Answers 18 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1004 is National Single Parent Day, which was initiated by which I have proposed, about bringing in a temporary Ronald Reagan in 1984. Will he join the right hon. universal basic income to support workers and get Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline money to where it is needed? Nokes), who is my friend in this, on the steps of Old Palace Yard immediately after Prime Minister’s questions The Prime Minister: I hear the hon. Gentleman loud to show that, old or young, rich or poor, big or small, all and clear. He echoes a point that was made by the right families matter? hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). Of course, that is one of the ideas that will certainly be The Prime Minister: I could not agree more strongly considered. with what the hon. Lady said. Whether I will be able to join her, I am not sure; I will have to look at my diary. I Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): My right think I have a date with you, Mr Speaker. hon. Friend is rightly engrossed day to day in dealing with the developments of covid-19, but I would like to Q15. [901623] Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) ask him to cast his mind a little further forward. The (Con): I thank the Prime Minister and his team for the chief scientific adviser and the chief medical officer sure-footed way in which they are approaching this have been clear that the best solution to this is a vaccine, crisis. Given what is unfolding in northern Italy, and the but the chief scientific adviser has said that that could very real prospect of our brilliant NHS staff being be as much as a year away. He has also suggested that, overwhelmed in a matter of weeks, what age and until that vaccine is available, it may be difficult to ease comorbidity criteria are being drafted that will govern restrictions successfully. Does my right hon. Friend access to intensive care and ventilators? agree with that analysis, and if so, what does a sensible exit strategy look like? The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend raises a very important point, but it is one that is not unknown The Prime Minister: The objective of the Government to the medical profession, and we will be relying on the and of our scientific advisers is to depress the peak of clinical decisions of those medical professionals. the epidemic, to ensure that we get through it, so that we come out on the other side, and that we do that as Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On the matter of fast as possible. That is why we are taking all the “whatever it takes”, it takes more than three-word measures that we have announced. That is why we have slogans, and in this case it takes a bit of war socialism. announced the package of business support that we We need to get money into the pockets of the workers. have. I am not going to give a timescale on it, but that is Has the Prime Minister seen early-day motion 302, the strategy,and I am absolutely certain that it will succeed. 1005 18 MARCH 2020 1006

BILL PRESENTED Children (Access to Treatment) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order NON-DOMESTIC RATING (PUBLIC LAVATORIES) No. 23) Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Secretary Robert Jenrick, supported by the Prime 12.40 pm Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Michael Gove, Secretary Matt Hancock, Secretary Oliver Dowden, Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): I Jesse Norman and Mr Simon Clarke, presented a Bill to beg to move, confer relief from non-domestic rates for hereditaments That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about in England and Wales that consist wholly or mainly of children’s access to medical treatment; and for connected purposes. public lavatories; and for connected purposes. The recent case of Tafida Raqeeb was a sad example Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time of a long line of disagreements about the treatment of tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 116) with explanatory seriously ill children that have ended up in court. In notes (Bill 116-EN). February last year, Tafida, then aged five, suffered a traumatic brain injury that left her on a life support OVERSEAS OPERATIONS (SERVICE PERSONNEL AND machine in a hospital in London. In the autumn, contrary VETERANS) to the wishes of her family, the hospital trust wanted to turn off her life support. Tafida’s parents wanted to Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) take her to Italy for further treatment, but that was Secretary Ben Wallace, supported by the Prime Minister, challenged by the trust, which argued that it was in Secretary Robert Buckland, Secretary Brandon Lewis, Tafida’s best interests that she should not be taken out Suella Braverman, Jeremy Quin, James Heappey and of the country, and that she should instead be allowed Johnny Mercer, presented a Bill to make provision to die. In a landmark High Court ruling in October, about legal proceedings and consideration of derogation Tafida’s parents won the right to take her to Genoa for from the European Convention on Human Rights in medical treatment. Tafida was allowed to leave the UK. connection with operations of the armed forces outside She received the medical treatment she needed and, just the British Islands. nine weeks ago, she was taken out of intensive care. She Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time is now breathing unaided. tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 117) with explanatory In another case in 2014, Ashya King, a young boy notes (Bill 117-EN). with a brain tumour, was taken abroad, contrary to the wishes of the local trust, for proton beam therapy, VAGRANCY (REPEAL) which at the time was not available in the UK. Ashya’s Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) parents were arrested in Spain for not acting in his best Layla Moran, supported by Tracey Crouch, Caroline interests, but the High Court later ruled that he could Lucas, Tonia Antoniazzi, Liz Saville Roberts, Jamie receive the proton beam therapy in Prague. Following Stone and Tim Farron, presented a Bill to repeal the the therapy, which is now available in the UK, an MRI Vagrancy Act 1824. scan found that Ashya was free of cancer. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Not all cases have such successful outcomes. Those Friday 12 June, and to be printed (Bill 118). are just two of a number of cases in which a disagreement has ended up in expensive and intensive court proceedings, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, where judges have had to make what should be an ethical Mr Speaker. Several Bills were just presented, but the decision about medical treatment. That is a fundamental one Bill that has not yet been presented is the one that flaw in the system, which the Bill tries to remedy. It is the Government have talked about extensively, which is clear to me that we do not have the appropriate support the emergency legislation on coronavirus. It is said that mechanisms in place to bring parents and doctors together the Bill will be published tomorrow and we will deal at an early stage where there are disagreements about with it on Monday. I hope that there will be a process treatment, to properly address difficult questions that whereby it is possible to table amendments before Second may prevent long, stressful and expensive court cases Reading, which is not the normal convention but is that are harmful to the child, the parents, the doctors possible for emergency legislation. If the Government and the hospitals. seriously intend this legislation to last for two years, I In recent months, I have met Chris Gard and Connie hope we will be able to table amendments to suggest Yates, the parents of Charlie, who, tragically and in highly that that could only be done with a review by Parliament public circumstances, passed away on 28 July 2017. on a regular basis. Charlie was born with a rare genetic disorder,mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome, which causes progressive Mr Speaker: That is on the Order Paper, and I am brain damage and muscle failure. Following a breakdown sure there will be time to table amendments. The message in communication between the parents and medical will have been taken on board that that should be made professionals over an experimental treatment for available. mitochondrial disease, the hospital and Charlie Gard’s parents entered into a lengthy and distressing dispute involving a series of court proceedings. The case went to the High Court, the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court and even the European Court of Human Rights. It was painful for all involved: the parents, the medical professionals working at the hospital where Charlie received his treatment, and everyone else concerned. 1007 Children (Access to Treatment)18 MARCH 2020 Children (Access to Treatment) 1008

The case clearly illustrated problems with the current Thirdly, the Bill would provide the means necessary dispute resolution systems. The court proceedings caused to obtain second medical opinions swiftly, ensuring enormous emotional harm and stress to both the parents that, when requested, parents would receive access to and the medical professionals. Both wanted to do what the child’s full medical data so that those second opinions they thought was best for Charlie. Instead of a smooth were fully informed. and efficient process aimed at resolving the conflict, we Fourthly, the Bill seeks to provide access to legal aid saw huge entrenchment, and precious time was lost to ensure that families are not forced to employ costly while Charlie’s health deteriorated. Worse, parents and legal representation or to rely on outside interest medical professionals were pitted against each other in groups in order to fund representation in the courts. the full glare of the media. That helped no one. Since Finally, the Bill would create a new legal test of whether then, Connie and Chris and have dedicated themselves an alternative credible medical treatment could cause a to preventing the escalation of conflict and protecting child “disproportionate risk of significant harm” in the doctor-patient relationship. order to decide whether a parent is able to seek that Those conversations, and my observation of a number treatment for their child. This test would replicate the of similar cases, led me to produce the Bill. I am pleased legal test already used by social services considering to say that I have support from hon. Members across whether to remove a child from their parents’ care and the House, as well as from doctors—including medical would sit before, rather than replacing, the current ethicists and former presidents of the British Medical “best interests” test, which is very broad and can be Association—and the wider public. subject to a number of different interpretations. The clarity brought by this test would, in turn, bring more Organisations such as the Medical Mediation Foundation certainty around the likely outcome of a legal decision are already active in trying to resolve disputes between and therefore prevent cases from ending up in court. parents and doctors in various medical settings. A study It is my view, and the consensus view of medical by the Centre for Health Economics from the University ethics, that if a treatment is not harmful and reputable of York also shows that, as well as saving time and doctors are willing to provide it, no one should be taking stress out of disputes, mediation could save prevented from seeking that treatment, and the new test trusts money by resolving issues concerning treatment of “disproportionate risk of significant harm” aims to quicker and without the need for expensive proceedings. clarify this. Broadly, the Bill does five things, which are all geared Most of all, the underlying aim of this Bill is to towards addressing disagreements quickly and clarifying prevent conflict between doctors and parents and help the legal situation so that cases are less likely to end up support them as they work together during very stressful in court. First, it requires the Secretary of State to put and upsetting situations. Conflicts are bad for doctors, in place measures to improve early access to mediation bad for parents, bad for our NHS and bad for the services in hospitals where conflict is in prospect. Mediation children whose care is under consideration. The frequency has been proven to be an effective way of re-establishing of these cases and the obvious distress they cause all trust between parents and doctors and helping them parties have led me to believe that the legal system in work together to make the best decision for the child, this regard is in desperate need of reform. I hope that but currently access to, and take up of, mediation my parliamentary colleagues will agree with me on this. services is very low. I commend the Bill to the House. Secondly,the Bill would provide for access to appropriate Question put and agreed to. clinical ethics committees, so that both doctors and Ordered, parents could be supported in making difficult decisions That Bambos Charalambous, Seema Malhotra, Emma by impartial ethical experts. Very few hospitals have Hardy, Sir Roger Gale, Preet Kaur Gill, Ruth Cadbury, access to medical ethics committees, meaning that parents Mr Virendra Sharma, Sir David Amess, Tim Loughton, and doctors often face a postcode lottery when looking Kerry McCarthy, Kate Hollern and Taiwo Owatemi to get the appropriate ethical advice. The Bill would put present the Bill. provision in place for committees to come together Bambos Charalambous accordingly presented the quickly when required and ensure that doctors and Bill. parents take the step of calling for a committee at an Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on early stage when they are faced with difficult decisions. Friday 20 June, and to be printed (Bill 119). 1009 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1010 Workers Those on low pay are some of those who will be hit Opposition Day hardest by the crisis. Many of them work in retail, hospitality and leisure, and we are also hearing of people 6TH ALLOTTED DAY being laid off in these sectors. Others will be concerned that their jobs may be at risk, and these anxieties could Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for also make them more likely to carry on working, even if Workers they are unwell. Nearly 1 million people are on zero-hours contracts. Analysis by the TUC found that the earnings of about a third of them do not meet the threshold for 12.49 pm SSP, compared with a figure of 6% for permanent Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab): I beg to employees, and women figure highly in the number of move, people on zero-hours contracts. Overall, about 70% of That this House has considered the matter of Statutory Sick workers who would benefit from the removal of the Pay and protection available for all workers. thresholdarewomen.AGovernmentconsultationpublished last year highlighted that workers who do not earn This is an international crisis, where countries need to enough to qualify for SSP may be “working when unwell”. learn from each other about what is working and what It said that the Government believed that there was a additional steps need to be taken. We also need to come case to extend eligibility for SSP to people earning less together as a country to support each other as the than the threshold. So will they now extend SSP to all severity of the crisis is becoming clearer. A Public Health workers, including those on low pay. England document estimates that the coronavirus epidemic in the UK will last until this time next year and could Along with the just under 2 million people whose lead to almost 8 million people being hospitalised. The earnings are too low to qualify, others on low income in impact will be felt not just by those who become ill or the gig economy are not eligible because they are classified have to self-isolate; this public health crisis has exposed as self-employed. They include careworkers, cleaners the fault lines in an economy in which insecure, low-paid and delivery drivers, the very people on whom we will work is so prevalent. be depending to an even greater degree than usual in the coming weeks and months as people have to self-isolate In the Budget last week, and again yesterday, the in greater numbers. My hon. Friend the Member for Chancellor announced measures to support business, Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes) has rightly but there was a glaring omission when it came to workers highlighted, in a letter to the Government signed by on low income and those who are unable to work. PHE 100 colleagues, that although NHS England has issued warns: guidance advising trusts to give full sick pay to staff “It is estimated that at least 10% of people in the UK will have who have to self-isolate because of the disease, careworkers a cough at any one time during the months of peak Covid-19 on zero-hours contracts will not be protected. They activity.” make up a quarter of the social care workforce. Will the The revised health advice is that anyone with a cough Government ensure that they also qualify for full sick should self-isolate for at least seven days, and for 14 days pay? In the case of delivery drivers, the GMB has if they live with other people. It is right that people worked with Hermes to agree on a fund to protect the should not go on working when they are not well, but income of drivers who fall sick or who have to self-isolate, the Government’s measures so far still leave many people but there are other examples of companies offering facing a cruel choice between their health and financial derisory payments or even requiring drivers to continue hardship, and it is a choice that has an impact on the to meet the costs of renting vans even while they receive health of the people with whom they come into contact. sick pay.Weshould not need to emphasise how important In response to the questions from the Leader of the it is that people in occupations where they are going Opposition, the Prime Minister said that he would from one house to another should not go on working bring forward a package of measures relating to statutory when unwell. We depend on people such as carers and sick pay. We really do need the details on that as a drivers, and the Government have a responsibility to matter of urgency. protect them if they are unable to work because of the outbreak. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): In order There is also a case to extend statutory sick pay to the to claim statutory sick pay, workers need to prove that self-employed more generally, as the Irish Government they are earning a minimum of £118 per week. So does have done. Many people who are disabled and who have my hon. Friend agree that rather than just regurgitating been ill, for example, choose self-employment because vacuous soundbites such as “whatever it takes”, the of the flexibility that it can give them to choose hours Government need to bring the statutory sick pay levels that are manageable. However, they also may be now up from the current paltry £94.25 a week, which is not more vulnerable to the virus. enough to even feed one’s family, to European levels The level of statutory sick pay is far too low at only and to extend it to all workers? £94.25 a week, so even those who do qualify for it are likely to struggle to keep on top of even basic household Margaret Greenwood: My hon. Friend makes a couple bills. Average weekly earnings are currently £512, meaning of important points about the levels of pay and the that the average worker who has to self-isolate for people who are able to access it, and I will be coming on 14 days will see their income fall by more than £850 to deal with those things in my speech. during that time. Some 7 million people are not eligible for statutory sick pay: just under 2 million workers on low income do Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): Is the not qualify because they earn less than the £118 on hon. Member aware that research undertaken by the average; and 5 million self-employed people do not qualify. Institute for the Future of Work absolutely backs up 1011 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1012 Workers Workers everything she is saying about putting the statutory Someone who is ill as a result of the coronavirus or for floor in place so that people can economically contribute any other reason should not also be pushed into poverty when it is right for them to do so? There is much more and left worrying about how they will cope financially, resilience in the general population and they have more so will the Government raise the level of new-style ESA ability to work when they are fit to do so when such payments? Even to get that, someone has to have built a measures are in place. contribution record over the past two years, which people in insecure work in particular may find difficult Margaret Greenwood: The hon. Lady makes a really to do. excellent point, and I thank her for it. Many workers on The Government announced that they were temporarily low pay are unlikely to have savings to fall back on suspending face-to-face assessments for sickness and either. In a recent YouGov survey, 48% of workers said disability benefits. That is welcome as far as it goes, and that they would not be able to cover their rent or Opposition Members have been highlighting the major mortgage and other living expenses if they had to take problems with how assessments are carried out for a two weeks off work at the current statutory sick pay long time, but the Government have said that this rates. The European Committee of Social Rights found approach would be replaced by telephone or paper-based in January 2018 that statutory sick pay and social assessments. That could risk increasing pressure on protections for the unemployed, sick and self-employed GPs at a time when they are already overrun, so can the people in the UK were “manifestly inadequate”. Government tell us clearly how assessments will be carried A worker in the UK on the national minimum wage out during the outbreak? who has to self-isolate will receive less than a third of Media reporting of the virus highlighted that the what they would in Germany and less than half of what most at risk had underlying health conditions, so what they would in Sweden or the Netherlands. The level of is the Government’s response to Mind’s call for all statutory sick pay is also set lower than the national reassessments to be suspended to give people security of living wage, which the Government said in the Budget income at this time? What action will the Secretary of that they want to increase. Will the Government therefore State take to protect people who care for a loved one raise statutory sick pay to at least the level of the real who was already ill or disabled before the crisis began? living wage so that people are not pushed into poverty Neither person may be directly affected by the virus, but by doing the right thing? attending a jobcentre could leave the carer at greater The Government’s approach has been to say that risk of contracting the virus. people on low income who are not eligible for statutory The truth is that social security changes aimed solely sick pay can claim universal credit or new-style ESA. at people who are self-isolating or ill will not be enough. That is not the answer. Universal credit acts as a vehicle Other people will be affected by the crisis. The Government for cuts and the level of support is simply too low. have said that they will suspend the minimum income The four-year benefits freeze will only come to an end floor in universal credit for self-employed people directly in April, and, as a result, families living in poverty have affected. Will they also suspend the minimum income been left £560 a year worse off on average, so will the floor for all workers, given that many will be affected as Government raise the level of social security payments a result of the crisis and the impact on the economy? in order to build resilience in people facing the virus? The demands on the DWP will be considerable, and The five-week wait for the payment of universal credit its own staff may be forced to self-isolate or take time means that there will remain a risk that people will go off because of illness as a result of the outbreak. What on working when unwell. The Government say that will the Government do to ensure that the service can people can request an advance, but advances are loans continue? We are calling on them to do all that they can that have to be paid back, often on top of other debts to introduce a form of robust, generous and comprehensive built up during that period, so will the Government income protection for those whose hours may be cut or commit to ending the five-week wait, and will they who may be asked to take unpaid leave because of the change their loan into a non-repayable advance? impact of the crisis. In some cases that will be because The truth is that people often have to rely on food of a fall in the number of customers, but if schools have banks to survive as well as on advances during the first to close at some point, there will also be parents who five weeks, and often after that, as deductions are made are not ill and do not have to self-isolate, but who are from the universal credit when it finally does arrive. unable to go on working, at least full-time. The Danish However, there are reports that panic buying by the Government have just announced a scheme that would public is leading to food banks running short. People involve their paying 75% of people’s wages in those using food banks cannot afford to stock up and so are circumstances, and businesses paying the remaining disadvantaged still further. 25%. A similar scheme successfully limited redundancies The Government should be taking measures to protect in Germany during the financial crisis. people in poverty in the current situation. Will the Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): Government immediately suspend deductions from social My hon. Friend is making some excellent comments. I security for anyone who becomes ill or is forced to understand that a major international fast food chain self-isolate, and consider suspending them for all other has told its employees that if a branch has to close claimants? Will the Government suspend work search because of infection, business being quiet or Government requirements for anyone directly affected by the virus, action, the employees will receive only statutory sick and will the Government suspend all sanctions? pay, and those on zero-hours contracts will get nothing. In the Budget, the Chancellor also suggested that Does my hon. Friend agree that that will make it harder some people who become ill but do not qualify for for employees to do the right thing, and that it constitutes statutory sick pay could claim new-style ESA. That is exploitative behaviour on the part of the employers £73.10 a week, even lower than statutory sick pay. which must be condemned and stopped? 1013 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1014 Workers Workers Margaret Greenwood: My hon. Friend has made a 18 months developing policies—testing them, carrying very important point, highlighting the vulnerability of out engagement up and down the country, and talking people in insecure work who do not have enough support to people with real-life experiences to make sure there and also the levels of statutory sick pay, which are not are no unintended consequences—but we are on a daily sufficient to cover people during the crisis. basis having to review things. It is a credit to the Opposition that this debate is being conducted in a Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): My spirit of partnership, so that we can look at and feed in hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. May I echo things that need to be considered to provide further the point that she made about Denmark? I understand support—I know that more support will come forward that both the French and the Italian Governments are on a daily basis. seeking to introduce exactly the same system to support Our policy is to protect lives and fight this virus with workers who would otherwise be laid off. The money is everything we have. Everyone should follow Government being paid directly to companies to ensure that they can guidance to control the spread of the disease. Those who retain those employees and the business can be kept have a high temperature or a new contagious cough, alive as well. and those who share a home with people presenting Margaret Greenwood: That too is a very important these symptoms, should stay at home in self-isolation point. The Labour party is working with the TUC and for 14 days. Everyone should avoid unnecessary travel others on a package of measures, and looking at the and social contact with others, and people who can do Danish model in particular. so should work from home. That will help to protect the NHS and safeguard the most vulnerable. We want people to be reassured that they will not lose their jobs and their income, so they can go on spending. I reassure the House that the Government will provide That would prevent a sharp fall in demand, and would a safety net and support for individuals during this also ease business confidence, as firms would see the testing time. Everybody will be supported to do the Government take on part of their wage bill. It is an right thing, and the Government will help employers to approach that involves employers, trade unions and the support their employees to do the right thing. Government working together to preserve jobs and protect Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Minister is people from poverty. We are calling on the Government very dutiful in doing his job, for which I thank him, but to explore these options, and we are prepared to work in I have had contact today from a mother who is isolating partnership to make that happen. because of her child. Is she eligible for sick pay from the There is a real danger that people who have already Government, or does she have to take unpaid dependants’ been pushed to the margins of our society will be worst leave, which would be very unfair? Just how can that work? affected by this crisis, and those who are struggling on low incomes, are disabled or are unable to work will be Justin Tomlinson: When people in work are isolating affected particularly badly.As I have said, we are working due to Government guidance, which seems to be the with the TUC and others on a range of measures to case in the circumstances that the hon. Gentleman extend and raise statutory sick pay, abolish the five-week describes, they would be eligible for statutory sick pay wait and sanctions, and provide income and wage support through their employers. In addition, it is always worth along the lines of the Danish model. We also wish to their looking on gov.uk to see whether they can get join in discussions with the Prime Minister about emergency additional support through the welfare system, whether universal basic income. We need leadership from the universal credit or new-style ESA. Government to ensure that all are protected if they fall ill, are forced to self-isolate, see their jobs at risk, or face Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): Like the Minister unemployment. More than ever, we need leadership and and other hon. Members, I am looking to be collaborative, policies that reflect the responsibility we all have for one as I generally try to be, particularly in this type of another. circumstance, but the issue raised by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) typifies the confusion 1.3 pm surrounding the guidance and support for people, which The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work was why my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, (Justin Tomlinson): We are in extraordinary times. The Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) recommended at coronavirus pandemic is the most serious public health Prime Minister’s questions some form of minimum emergency that our nation has faced for a generation, income guarantee that would cover all these issues and but the Government will do whatever it takes to get our mean that people could just do what is right at the right nation through it. We all need to pull together. We can, time without having to worry about the financial must and will get through this. consequences. Is the Department looking at that? Before I proceed to the main part of my speech, I Justin Tomlinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I have want to pay tribute to all our fantastic staff, particularly said many times at the Dispatch Box that I admire the those on the front line who are doing their level best, way that he contributes and offers support in trying to where they can, to enable some of the most vulnerable help some of the most vulnerable people in society. people in society to continue to receive benefits, and to There were two aspects to his question, the first of enable those who now need to gain access to those which was about general communication. These are benefits to do so. The spirit of this debate shows Parliament fast-moving events, and all constituency MPs are getting at its best—we are all seeking to work in partnership. a lot of correspondence that asks very reasonable questions. These are uncharted times, and there are new things We are trying to give answers that are as good as coming forward. I have talked to lots of stakeholders in possible, but we really have to keep pushing people the past few days as we have made announcements towards the gov.uk website, on which there is consistent about our Department. In normal times, we could spend communication. On the second point about a minimum 1015 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1016 Workers Workers net, that is where the welfare system comes into play, Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures, because statutory sick pay—it is important, and I will which is why we have extended statutory sick pay to go over that—applies in only some cases, whereas the those who are self-isolating in line with the latest welfare safety net applies to all who need it. Government health guidance. The guidance is available online on gov.uk and ensures that eligible individuals, Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): I believe the whether they are sick or self-isolating, will be entitled to Minister will know that cross-party working is in my statutory sick pay if they are unable to work because DNA, and I really do want to do everything I can to they are following Government advice. make sure we get this right. This is a personal but The upcoming emergency Bill will mean that for people pertinent point: my son Stuart is self-employed; he has affected by coronavirus, statutory sick pay will be payable a wife who has had dialysis since she was 14, and a from day one, instead of day four, and currently it will 10-year-old son, Liam. They are all self-isolating; Stuart be backdated to 13 March. We removed those waiting does not have an income. They live in rented days to get support to people as quickly as possible. accommodation and utilities are essential to keep the These are crucial measures to ensure that employees do dialysis going. I have a very frightened family and very not attend work when they should stay at home to help many frightened constituents. We would be most grateful to keep themselves and others safe. The circumstances for any clarification on what we can do. are exceptional and we urge employers to do the right Justin Tomlinson: I have worked very closely with the thing, use their discretion and respect the medical need hon. Lady on a number of issues, and I know that she is to self-isolate. held in huge respect across both sides of the House. Statutory sick pay is a legal minimum, and employers Prior to being an MP, I ran my own business, so I can offer more. Where possible, employers should support understand the concerns of self-employed people who their employees to work from home to help to slow the have suddenly overnight seen dramatic changes to their spread of the virus. If employers do feel the need to cash flow and ability to trade as a business. I absolutely require evidence, people who are advised to self-isolate understand the worries that people will have, which is for coronavirus will soon be able to obtain an alternative why we are allowing access to statutory sick pay or, to the fit note by contacting NHS 111 rather than depending on people’s personal circumstances, looking visiting a doctor. We are all aware of the need to protect at whether they can turn to new-style ESA—the GP surgeries so that they can concentrate on key areas contributory benefit—which is probably the case for the of work. self-employed, or the wider support offer through universal Accordingly,the Government will ensure that businesses credit and the welfare net. People would need to look at are supported to deal with the temporary economic their circumstances and talk to the jobcentres. We are impact of the outbreak of coronavirus.Small and medium- all trying to do our best to provide as much certainty as sized enterprises are at the heart of our economy, possible, as quickly as possible, through the daily updates. symbolising the hard work and enterprising spirit of our nation. To support such employers with the increased Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Minister costs of sick pay, the emergency Bill will provide that will know that many people are really worried about the employers with fewer than 250 employees can reclaim financial impact of self-isolation, whether they are sick up to two weeks’ statutory sick pay for sickness absences or not. He has mentioned sick pay a few times and the related to coronavirus. That includes those who are alternatives of universal credit and ESA, but those required to self-isolate in line with Government guidance. sums simply will not pay the rent or the bills, or put The measure could provide more than £2 billion of support food on the table. The Minister also mentioned the for up to 2 million businesses, and will be crucial to speed at which action is needed and how much faster his ensure that our economy keeps running. Department is having to react then normal. If it takes till next week to put in place legislation, many more The measure on statutory sick pay is in addition to people will have not taken action to protect themselves others to support businesses that were outlined by the and everybody else. Action is needed now and people need Chancellor yesterday: £330 billion of Government-backed the money now. Will he please respond on that point? and guaranteed loans; additional cash grants of up to £25,000 for businesses in the retail, hospitality and Justin Tomlinson: I absolutely understand the point leisure sectors with a rateable value of less than £51,000; that the hon. Member makes. These are extraordinary and cash grants of £10,000 to 700,000 of our smaller times, and collectively we are all trying to identify the businesses. The Government will do whatever it takes to right levels of support as quickly as possible. In pure support our economy. cash terms, the fiscal support that we have already Of course, not everyone is eligible for statutory sick provided at this stage of the curve is almost the highest pay, which is paid by employers. Gig workers and those around the world, but this is not complete. As events on zero-hours contracts may be entitled to sick pay, and progress, we have to do more and we can expect more should check with their employer, but millions of hard- announcements. I understand that in an ideal world we working people who are self-employed or in the gig could announce everything straight away, but we have economy will need our help, too. That is why we are to make sure that it is right, we have to react as things making it easier to access benefits during this period. come forward, and we have to communicate as quickly The shadow Secretary of State talked about disability and clearly as possible. We do understand that. benefits and the announcement that we made earlier Chi Onwurah: Will the Minister give way? this week. The first decision was to remove face-to-face assessments, because we recognise that a significant Justin Tomlinson: Let me make a little progress, because proportion of those who could be claiming disability I think I am about to cover some of the things being benefits are vulnerable. We want to avoid them needing asked about. I promise that I will take more interventions. to travel unnecessarily and to sit in busy waiting rooms, 1017 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1018 Workers Workers [Justin Tomlinson] need for people to contact their doctor for a fit note. Those in self-isolation or sick with coronavirus who so we decided to stop face-to-face assessments. However, make a claim for universal credit can receive up to a we do not want to stop new people gaining access to the month’s advance up front without physically attending support that they are entitled to, so we are seeking to a jobcentre. Everything can be done by phone or online, continue to do paper-based and telephone reviews, but and that is a welcome position. prioritising those who are new claimants, and looking Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): What at the workforce on a daily basis. metrics has the Minister adopted to ensure that phone Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I very much agree calls are dealt with in a timely manner? There are always with the policy that the Minister is setting out. Will he complaints about people having to ring and ring, but not clarify the intention for reassessments? He will know getting an answer. that Mind and one or two others have suggested that Justin Tomlinson: Weanticipate unprecedented demand, reassessments ought not to go ahead at the moment, which is part of the reason why we have looked at the partly because it is very difficult for people to get medical work that we no longer need to do during this period—for evidence in support of their reassessment claim at a example, there was the announcement on ending face- time when doctors are very busy with something else. to-face assessments for disability benefits—so that we can move health professionals on to the telephone Justin Tomlinson: I absolutely understand that point, systems to make sure that we can cope with demand and the right hon. Member and I discussed it when we and remove the need for people to unnecessarily visit first made the announcement. The absolute priority has jobcentres. We are keeping a very close eye on that on a to be new claimants who are seeking to get support day-to-day basis. through the disability benefit system, so we are looking on a daily basis at what we can do. I do not envisage We are also removing the minimum income floor for that we will be able to do much beyond that, but I want self-employed universal credit claimants who have to to make sure that new claimants can get support. That self-isolate or who become ill as a result of coronavirus was why, at the beginning of my speech, I paid tribute during this period. We are taking those measures to to the fantastic work of those who are working on the ensure that people are supported throughout this difficult frontline, who—like all people—are anxious about events, period. We have increased access to sick pay, made it but are still, when they can, coming in to make sure that easier to access benefits and provided support for businesses the vulnerable people in society can access the support to protect people’s jobs. This is a comprehensive package that they are entitled to. of support for some of the most vulnerable in society, but we are continuing to look at it by the day. The Chi Onwurah: I thank the Secretary of State for Chancellor has made it clear that there will be further giving way. He talks about statutory sick pay as part of announcements. the safety net. As such, he recognises that, as a safety Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Two of net, it is a benefit of last resort, and he talks about the my constituents who were both self-employed have had way in which companies can offer more. Does he therefore all their contracts brought to an end. They have a recognise that in this unprecedented situation, when so mortgage and two young children. Not surprisingly, as many people are likely to find themselves—either by in many cases that hon. Members have raised, they are choosing to self-isolate or being obliged to—in the worried for the future. What support should I tell them position of claiming statutory sick pay, the level is not the Government will make available to help their specific appropriate to drive the right behaviours or support situation? people? It is no longer a question of last resort, but of supporting significant proportions of our population, Justin Tomlinson: We are all hearing similar queries so sick pay needs to be at a higher level. as constituency MPs. The key is for people to keep looking at gov.uk as announcements are made each day Justin Tomlinson: I am not the Secretary of State—it so that they have clarity about what they can and is very kind of the hon. Member to elevate me to such a cannot get. The hon. Member talked about his constituents lofty position, but that does not apply. The broader having a mortgage; obviously, we have already made the point is that the Chancellor has made it very clear that announcement about support for a mortgage holiday to we will continue, on a daily basis, to look at what protect people. additional support there can be. The Government will Part of the next step of our plan is to focus on do what we need to do to protect the vulnerable in providing support for people’s income and jobs. There society and keep our economy going. Many Members will be further announcements, which will be shaped by will raise very important points in the debate but, as a all of us. As we flag up the issues being brought to our broad principle, the safety net is wider welfare support, inboxes, that will help to shape the response. This is looking at an individual’s personal circumstances, and Parliament at its best, through partnership working. I tailoring the level of support to them so that we can hope that all hon. Members will give their full support target help to the most vulnerable in society. to all the work that we and all our fantastic frontline Those not eligible for sick pay, including the self- staff are doing. employed, are able to make a claim for universal credit or contributory employment and support allowance. 1.21 pm Last week, we laid regulations to ensure that the Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): I thank the contributory ESA is now payable from day one, removing Labour party for devoting some of its Opposition time the seven-daywaiting period for people who are self-isolating to allow us all to discuss this serious, pertinent, timely on Government guidance or who are ill with coronavirus. and important issue, given the uncertainty facing many Claims can also be made over the phone without the of our constituents across the UK. 1019 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1020 Workers Workers With your forbearance, Madam Deputy Speaker, I This is really serious. We are asking people, even if stress at the outset for anybody watching that people they have mild symptoms, to self-isolate for the greater should follow the advice of their local health authorities, good, to contain and delay the spread of covid-19. We such as NHS Scotland or Public Health England. Regular must be sympathetic with constituents who are asking updates are coming from the Governments across the legitimate questions about the advice and support they isles. I recommend that, as best as possible, employees are getting. Statutory sick pay is an issue that should and employers follow the available guidance. have been resolved before now, frankly. In response to I commend everyone leading the response to the this situation, the UK Government must act quickly. situation, including NHS staff, other emergency services, At the Work and Pensions Committee hearing this local authorities, the voluntary sector and Governments morning, there was consensus among the witnesses across the isles, who have been working together as best that statutory sick pay should be raised. Citizens Advice as possible to ensure that the best advice, based on is asking for it to go up to £180 per week. Scope is science, and the best support is available at the right asking for it to be the equivalent of the national minimum time. I particularly praise Professor Jason Leitch, a wage. Others have said that the equivalent of the real former dux of Airdrie Academy in my constituency and living wage would be more appropriate, and Scandinavian the Scottish Government’s national clinical director. countriesaremakingit100%of wages.TheUKGovernment Alongside the Scottish Health Secretary Jeane Freeman must act. and the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, he has been the Alongside the rate of statutory sick pay, there are other model of calm, erudite leadership. specific areas where we want to see action from the UK In the spirit of cross-party co-operation that we have Government. seen emerge at Holyrood, I, too, have no desire to be political or criticise where working constructively can Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): Just bring about better outcomes and engender greater for clarification, is the hon. Gentleman asking for a confidence in the response of all Governments to the permanent change in Government policy on statutory crisis. When I call for further action, therefore, it is not sick pay, or a temporary change for this period? because I think the UK Government are deliberately holding back. I believe there is a genuine desire across all Governments to do the right thing at the right time. Neil Gray: We have to reflect on the fact that, even not at times of crisis, UK statutory sick pay rate is The concerns that remain in large sections of society considerably lower than that of other European nations. regarding the UK Government’s economic response to A permanent change is required, but a temporary measure covid-19 essentially boil down to ensuring that incomes which might go beyond that permanent increase is are protected when demand falls in huge sections of the required to deal with covid-19, so the answer is both, if economy. Renters, the self-employed, small business that makes sense. owners and people who are in or out of work just want to know that they will get the financial support they need The Government must extend the policy further to to survive. ensure that sick pay is set at an hourly rate and available for everyone for 52 weeks instead of 28. Current rules Constituents who are self-employed, such as taxi on statutory sick pay are not flexible enough to meet drivers, driving instructors, childcare providers and many real-life needs and fall far short of meeting a dignified more, have contacted me because they are worried standard of living, even with this new change. Disability about making sure that they do the right thing at the groups have been especially vocal in calling for an right time, while providing for their families and employees. overhaul of the sick pay system. Their concerns must be My right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and factored into the UK Government’s response to the sick Lochaber (Ian Blackford) and the shadow Health Secretary, pay consultation. the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), have led calls for statutory sick pay arrangements to be The UK Government should accept the TUC’s improved to help workers who contract covid-19 or recommendations on sick pay for all. Those include who have to self-isolate. abolishing the lower earnings limit, which would extend coverage to almost 2 million additional workers; Although we welcome the UK Government’s move permanently removing the waiting period for sick pay; to make sick pay kick in from day one, and for the cost increasing the weekly level of sick pay from £94 to the of sick pay to be met by them for companies with fewer equivalent of a week’s pay at the real living wage; than 250 staff for a period of 14 days, there is still more permanently agreeing that the legal requirement on fit to do to support workers and businesses. Statutory sick notes after seven days of absence be extended to 14 days, pay is a reserved matter, as is employment law, so those with employers accepting self-certification for anything areas are required to be decided upon here. less than that; and permanently providing funds to ensure My right hon. Friend compared statutory sick pay that employers can afford to pay sick pay. rates in the UK with the rates of our European neighbours. As the House will be aware, that is not currently a The UK Government must do all they can to support favourable comparison for the UK Government. The businesses, to ensure that jobs are kept for the duration UK rate is currently £94.25 a week—the second lowest of this crisis. I would like to see the UK Government rate when compared with EU nations. Ireland doubled provide much greater grants, rather than loans, to help its rate to £266 in response to covid-19, while Germany all businesses stay afloat, and attach conditions about and Austria both pay £287 a week. At £94.25 a week, ensuring that jobs are protected. We have seen that type the UK Government are presiding over a system of of initiative in Denmark, and I hope the UK will follow. poverty pay for those who are sick. One Tory MP was Clearly, we all hope that these issues are temporary. asked on Twitter whether she could live on £94.25 per The UK Government must do all they can to ensure week, and she simply responded “Get a life”. that the attachment between employer and employee is 1021 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1022 Workers Workers [Neil Gray] that they have to travel some distance to get the meter top-ups that they require. As part of their thinking, not detached. That is important for workers, employers could the UK Government give serious thought to and the wider economy. Yesterday, Robert Chote, the compelling the energy companies not to cut people off chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility, urged the and to take account of the fact that there will be higher UK Government not to be “squeamish” about spending needs for energy and less money to go round while this whatever it takes to prevent mass foreclosures, bankruptcies is happening? and millions of job losses as the UK effectively goes into lockdown. He said: Neil Gray: I absolutely agree. Many calls are being “When the fire is large enough you just spray the water and made across the country today for direct payments to worry about it later.” be made from the Government to utility companies to I turn to measures to support people who are self- ensure that people in these circumstances do not miss employed and other business owners.The UK Government out, but it goes back to my original premise: incomes must do more. I echo the calls from my hon. Friend the for people, regardless of their circumstances during this Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) last period, are going to be hit, so the Government need to night. We must protect the incomes of people who are provide some form of minimum income guarantee to self-employed and do so quickly, to give them confidence. ensure that people in all circumstances are able to get She was also right to raise issues around maternity through, whether that is via statutory sick pay or the leave, parental leave and support for people with no social security system. If they are in work, the Government recourse to public funds; they are extremely vulnerable must ensure that, if people lose hours, those could be at the best of times, but right now they must be supported. picked up again, so they continue to pay their bills and The UK Government must give information to the continue to live a sustainable life. devolvedGovernmentsasquicklyaspossible,andencourage The monthly allowance for universal credit should much greater information sharing to allow all Governments also be increased dramatically and all other social security to act swiftly and appropriately. At Prime Minister’s payment levels should be swiftly reviewed as well. Clearly questions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, now, this is not business as usual. We cannot continue Skye and Lochaber raised the prospect of some form of to pay social security rates which impoverish in normal minimum income guarantee, such as a universal basic times, never mind now. We are going to have to accept income. The Prime Minister appeared to accept the that, to get through, the UK Government are going to general premise, but time is now of the essence. Can the need to inject a massive amount of money into the Minister give an idea of when he expects some form of economy to make up for what is undoubtedly going to announcement on people receiving financial support? be a massive downturn across a wide range of sectors, The UK Government should consider whether they the like of which I do not think we have ever seen will extend the normal deadlines for people to provide before—a downturn that will result from the actions the necessary information to support social security that the UK Government and other Governments are applications, while paying people much more quickly as rightly taking in asking people to self-isolate and take the demand is likely to be much greater. There is clearly other actions to contain the virus. We cannot tell people a need to go further on social security. Ministers have to stay away from work if they have symptoms, to stay heard me discuss the various issues that there are routinely away from restaurants, bars and cinemas and to work with universal credit. The changes I want to universal from home, and not expect an economic impact, an credit, although they would undoubtedly help in this employment impact and an income impact. The UK crisis, may not be practically achievable in a useful Government must fill that hole to ensure that they fulfil timescale—I am talking about scrapping the five-week the promises of the Prime Minister that nobody will be wait, the two-child cap and increasing work allowances. penalised and everyone will be protected for doing the right thing. Instead, for the duration of this crisis, the UK Government need to ensure that those who are in or out I wish to conclude with an encouragement to everybody of employment, those who are employed or self-employed, who may be following this debate. Please be community- are paid an amount that allows them to get through. minded. We have already seen some fantastic ideas and Universal credit advances, for instance, should now responses to the crisis in all our communities. Watch come in the form of a grant, not a loan. The Government out for your neighbours. Help if you can. Buy only what should also look at urgently suspending the tax credit you need. If they have the means to buy more, add what income disregard for reductions in earnings, at least for you can to the food bank trolley and know that others the 2020-21 financial year, to ensure that, where earnings certainly do not have the ability to stockpile. Many of fall, household tax credits entitlement takes account of my constituents are already worried about how they that loss. will access essentials because they are self-isolating, have lost their job or have other vulnerabilities. Now, like We now know that schools in Scotland and Wales are never before in so many of our lifetimes, we need the to close at the end of this week. That puts huge pressure community-mindedness that got previous generations on families who rely on free school meals, so I urge the through such emergency situations. UK Government to look at this area, as pressures are going to be on those families for the duration of the We also need to start talking about how those of us school closures. who are fit and well—and who have contracted and come through the other side of covid-19—can help key Kirsten Oswald: One of the issues that constituents sectors of the economy and emergency services to cope have contacted me about a number of times over recent with what is to come. I suspect that, in time, with days is the finance of households that rely upon prepaid self-isolation and illness, we will need to mobilise that meters for their energy. These households are likely to volunteer army. But that can only happen if we ensure already be financially more vulnerable. It is very likely that everyone has their income protected. Support for 1023 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1024 Workers Workers business is important, but at the end of the day it will be should be made as non-repayable grants for the duration income protection, in whatever form that takes—a cash of this crisis. That is something that the Department grant or a temporary universal basic income—that will could readily do. I recognise that expecting the Department finally give everyone the comfort to do the right thing very quickly to make big changes to its IT systems for by society. That will give the answers to the questions supporting universal credit may not be practical, but it that we are all getting from businesses, the self-employed, could quickly make the advances non-repayable. renters and others. I am pleased to see both the Minister for Disabled I hope that, within hours, rather than days, the UK People, Health and Work and the Under-Secretary of Government will do the right thing and guarantee State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for incomes, as we have seen in other nations. We are Colchester (Will Quince), on the Front Bench. They are willing to discuss any potential measures that the UK very familiar with the Select Committee’s concerns about Government are thinking of in order to ensure that this the five-week delay in universal credit anyway. There is is done properly and quickly. growing evidence—including a striking article published in The Lancet this month—that people are being pushed 1.35 pm into clinical depression due to being on universal credit rather than on legacy benefits. The Trussell Trust has Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The hon. Member found that many more people on universal credit need for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) mentioned in passing to go to a food bank compared with those on the that the Work and Pensions Committee met this morning. predecessor benefits. Looking at what it is about universal We took evidence from five organisations: the Royal credit that is causing those problems, the only big National Institute of Blind People, Mind, Scope, Citizens structural issue is the five-week delay. As the Ministers Advice and the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust representing the know, the Work and Pensions Committee will shortly Disability Benefits Consortium. The main purpose was begin an inquiry on that particular topic. That is a to take evidence about disability benefit assessments, broader issue but, for the duration of the crisis, there is but of course we took the opportunity to raise some of a powerful case for making the advances non-repayable. the current issues that we are discussing in this debate. I thank the members and staff of the Committee, and the I appreciate that this will not be the case everywhere, witnesses from all those organisations, for being willing but it is the case in constituencies like mine. There are to take part in that useful session this morning, despite many working families who have leave to remain in the the current difficult circumstances. UK but do not yet have indefinite leave to remain. They are on what is called the 10-year pathway to securing I welcome the announcements that the Government indefinite leave, which means that every two and a half have made. As the Minister for Disabled People, Health years they have to apply again for leave to remain. If and Work, the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin they are working, they obtain leave to remain, but—I Tomlinson), has recognised, there is going to be a good do not know whether this is universal, but it is certainly deal more to do to protect individuals through this very the case for a lot of my constituents—the card they difficult time; that is underlined by the examples from receive making it clear they have leave to remain and are other countries that we have heard today. I very much permitted to work in the UK also says they have no hope, with others, that those additional announcements recourse to public funds. They are not allowed to claim will happen very soon because we need them very fast. any benefits at all, which in the current circumstance I want to raise a couple of issues about universal puts them in an extraordinarily difficult position. They credit. I put the point to the Chancellor yesterday that are not allowed to claim ESA or universal credit at all. somebody who is self-employed and who self-isolates If they are in a position where they should self-isolate in very often will have to forgo their income as a result. accordance with the Government’s guidance, they will The advice is to apply for benefits, but if people apply find that they suddenly have no income at all if they for universal credit, they do not get any help for the first self-isolate. five weeks other than a loan that has to be repaid. It There is a related issue with the habitual residence seems to me that people in that position are not going to test, which is often applied, perfectly properly, to make be willing to give up their income if all they are going sure people are habitually resident in the UK and are to get is a loan. therefore entitled to benefits. I wonder whether there is In answering my question, the Chancellor correctly a case for suspending the test, at least in some circumstances, said that people can apply for the new contributory because we want those who are working to be able to employment and support allowance. I welcome the fact self-isolate when it is important that they do so. If they that that is now available not only to people who are do not have access to public funds for one of those two sick, but to people who are having to self-isolate because reasons,they will find it practically impossible to self-isolate. others in their household are sick. However, as the I hope the Ministers and their Home Office colleagues Minister will recognise, there are going to be quite a lot will look at that. of people in that position who do not meet the contribution Citizens Advice has argued that there should be a criteria for ESA because they have not paid 26 weeks’ temporary repayment pause for claimants, which is a worth of contributions, having earned above the lower strong point in the current crisis. People currently have earnings limit, within the last two years. The only to repay their universal credit advances, or perhaps opportunity those people will have is to apply for universal their past tax credit overpayments, through their universal credit. However, if they only get a loan, many will feel credit, so there is a case for suspending those repayments. that they have no alternative but to carry on working—even The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work though they know that they really ought to self-isolate. said in his opening speech that “Everybody will be The attraction of the proposal made by the hon. Member supported to do the right thing.” He is right to underline for Airdrie and Shotts—and which has been made by the importance of that but, as things stand, those who Citizens Advice and others—is that these advances do not have recourse to public funds, because they do 1025 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1026 Workers Workers [Stephen Timms] Stephen Timms: My hon. Friend makes a couple of very important points. I very much agree with him on not meet the requirements of the habitual residence the first, but on the second, my understanding is that test, will not be supported to do the right thing, and it is self-employed people in this position can apply for this very important that they should be. new employment and support allowance if they meet In his Budget statement, the Chancellor said he is the contribution conditions, which, of course, some will “temporarily removing the minimum income floor in universal not. That is where universal credit needs to be changed. credit.”—[Official Report, 11 March 2020; Vol. 673, c. 280.] One of those routes is likely to be a solution for them, When we came to read the Budget documents, we found rather than statutory sick pay, because that depends on that the position, as the Minister set out a few minutes there being an employer in place. ago, is that the removal applies only to those directly My final point is about the argument that has been affected by covid-19 or by self-isolation according to made by many, and I am sure that will be made again in Government advice. I think the Government should this debate, that the overall level of benefits should be stick with what the Chancellor of the Exchequer actually higher, at least for the duration of this crisis, than it has said, which is that the minimum income floor will be been up until now. I just want to make one argument in suspended altogether, because a lot of self-employed favour of that proposition. We always say, and we have people—my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West said it on both sides of this House, that work is the best (Gareth Thomas) gave us such an example—will see a route out of poverty, and the system is designed to big fall in their income because of what is happening in encourage people to seek and find work but, at the the wider economy, not because they are directly affected, moment, there are lots of people—and it will be a as yet, by covid-19. Universal credit provides an opportunity growing number over the coming weeks—whom we do to increase support where their income from self- not want to work. We do not want to force people into employment falls. That could work very well, I think, if jobs. For many, the position will continue to be the the minimum income floor was suspended altogether, same in the next few weeks as it has been in the past, but as the Chancellor of Exchequer appeared to indicate there is this large and very important group whom we would be the case in his Budget speech last week. I do really do not want to be working, and we want them to hope that that will be looked at again, that the caveats be at home. That, in particular, makes the case for that have been added to that commitment since might Ministers who are looking temporarily at raising the be taken away, and that the minimum income floor will levels of benefits—statutory sick pay and universal credit be suspended altogether for self-employed people for and the others. the duration of this crisis. I welcome what the Minister said about the suspension I echo the point that was made a few moments ago by of face-to-face assessments the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) for disability benefits. I think he suggested that, in about the tax credit disregard. As things stand at the practice, his Department will not conduct reassessments moment, if someone’s income falls by less than £2,500, for disability benefits either. If that is the practical their tax credits do not increase at all. There is, in the reality, it would be helpful if he stated that explicitly. I tax credit system, a mechanism that can be used to think that would be reassuring to a lot of people who provide people with help when their income falls, but to are in receipt of disability benefits at the moment and get the full benefit of that we would need to remove that expect to have to be reassessed in the next few months. £2,500 disregard. I appreciate that that is a matter for That is always quite an anxious time for people in that the Treasury, rather than for the Department for Work position. If the reality is that they will not be reassessed and Pensions, but I hope that it will be done. for several months because everybody is busy with Statutory sick pay is a big focus for this debate. The everything else, it would be helpful for that to be made Government consulted last summer on extending statutory explicit so that reassurance can be provided. sick pay to those who are lower paid—to those who are Of course, if it turns out that there are ways of doing earning below the current threshold—but the Government the new assessments that do not require face-to-face have not yet responded to that consultation, which was meetings, and if that works well for new applications, carried out several months ago. Surely now is the time hopefully lessons can be learned for the system in the to act. It was proposed then that statutory sick pay longer term. However, if it was possible to make it clear should be paid to people earning less than the lower that there will not be any disability benefit reassessments earnings limit at 80% of their wage. That, I think, was in the next few months, I think that would be widely the proposal on which the Government consulted. This welcomed. is surely the time to fast-track that proposal—to bring it Several hon. Members rose— forward and put it in place. I appreciate that it will need legislation to do that, but it is very important that it is Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. done, and I hope that it can be picked up in the It may be helpful for Members to know that Mr Speaker legislation that will be published tomorrow. has received a message that we are expecting a statement at 5 pm, to be delivered by the Secretary of State for Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): On this point Education. about statutory sick pay, there are two additional points on which the Government really do need to act. One is 1.51 pm that this should be done in advance, up front, rather Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): It is an honour to than making businesses reclaim, which is putting massive follow my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham pressure on them. The other is that it is vital for the self- (Stephen Timms), who made a powerful speech, particularly employed. Businesses in my Aberavon constituency are about refugees and asylum seekers. Their plight, and really under the cosh and they need both of these measures the specific issues they face, have not been discussed to be included in the rethink on statutory sick pay. nearly enough in the past few days and weeks. 1027 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1028 Workers Workers At times of national and, as in this case, global crisis, Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): Does only Governments have the resources to protect our the hon. Lady agree that as workers have had their society and our health, to protect the most vulnerable, shifts cancelled, or have been told that their hours will to protect businesses and production, and to protect be reduced—many of them are on zero-hour contracts— workers. Markets cannot do that; only the Government they, too, need the support that she is rightly saying can. That is why the Government must step up to should be given to workers? ensure that we protect all our citizens, to direct our national economy, to help and support the people who Rachel Reeves: The hon. Gentleman is right. For most need it, and to ensure that resources get to where many people, if they have a temporary reduction in they are most needed. their work, they can draw on their savings, but many of I will talk primarily about issues with statutory sick the people I represent—and many of his constituents as pay, but let me first say something about the reports in well—do not have savings to draw on. The Resolution the newspapers today that some Harley Street clinics Foundation published evidence last week before the are offering coronavirus tests for £395. That means Budget—to try to influence the Budget—that showed someone can get the test if they have the money, but that 60% of people on low and middle incomes have less someone who works in a GP surgery cannot get it. That than £100 of savings. They do not have the resources to is utterly unacceptable. The role of the Government is draw on even temporarily for a short time to pay the to intervene to ensure that resources go where they are rent or the mortgage, or to put food on the table. most needed—not to the rich and powerful, but to the We must offer more support. That is what other people delivering our frontline services,who need protection. countries are doing. In Norway, full pay is given to I urge Ministers to do that. those laid off for 20 days. The self-employed get 80% of The measures taken by the Chancellor yesterday were their average income over the last three years. In Sweden, necessary and worth while to protect our economic laid-off workers are guaranteed 90% of their income: infrastructure and to support the most severely hit the Government will pick up half of that and employers sectors of our economy. They were also necessary to are expected to pick up the other half. In Denmark, the support businesses, which are not responsible for the Danish state will pay 75% of the salaries of laid-off collapse in demand they are experiencing. The same is workers. That is the same in many other countries. If it true of workers—they are not responsible for the is good enough in Denmark, Sweden, Norway and other predicament they find themselves in—yet support for countries in the European Union and elsewhere, it is them was missing from the Chancellor’sstatement yesterday. frankly good enough for workers in this country too. The Minister has said today—the Prime Minister has It is now urgent that the Government come to the said it too—that everybody will be supported to do the House and tell us that support is not just available for right thing. We all want that, but I am afraid at the business—although that is very welcome—but is available moment that is not the case. People are not being to workers as well. Unless that happens, people will not supported to do the right thing. For many people, the be able to self-isolate and stop the virus spreading. The right thing is not to go to work—not to spread this virus, health crisis will become an economic crisis and many but to stay at home. people will pay the price for the virus. It does not need If we really want people to do the right thing, we to be that way. Let us look at income replacement, and need to support them to make that decision, so let me quickly, to ensure that help is available. turn to statutory sick pay. This point has been well As important as helping people now is, if we put in rehearsed in debate both today and yesterday, but it place income replacement so that people are not laid off obviously needs to be made time and again, because so or made redundant, it will also support the economic far the necessary measures have not been taken. Statutory recovery. The pandemic will pass—we must believe that sick pay is not enough for people to be able to support and we know it is the case—but when it does, and themselves and their family. The level of statutory sick people want to go out again and to start spending in pay is insufficient. shops, restaurants, bars, theatres and cafes and to travel The ineligibility is also a huge problem. If people are on aeroplanes, we need to ensure that the economic self-employed or earn below the lower earnings limit, fabric of our country is still intact. The best way to do they are not able to get statutory sick pay. Some of the that is to ensure that workers remain attached to the people who most need it are denied the support that the firms that have been employing then. Income replacement Government say is necessary. Other people may not be can help people now, but it can also ensure that our sick, but also need support. If they are self-isolating, economy gets back on a sound footing when the crisis they might not have symptoms or be sick, but the right has passed. To build the economy we need to see after thing to do is to stay at home. If we want people to stay this, I urge the Government to introduce urgently a at home, they need support. system of income replacement. Similarly, we will have a statement from the Secretary The issue of renters has also been mentioned by of State for Education later and if, as now seems Front Benchers and others. There was support yesterday inevitable, many parents will have to take time off work for people with mortgages, and that is very welcome, to look after their children, they will need support to but many people, especially those in precarious work or do the right thing, although they will not be sick. Of on low pay, do not have mortgages—they rent privately course, many people also face redundancy because their or in the social sector. In my constituency, fewer than a businesses cannot employ them anymore. Or if they are third of homes are owner-occupied; the others are self-employed, the work is just not coming in. At the either in the private rented sector or the social rented moment, those people are not able to claim statutory sector, and we need to do much more to support those sick pay, and they will have to wait in the queue for people as well, because if they are on statutory sick pay universal credit or ESA if they have the contributions. now, or have seen a fall in their incomes or are expecting That is not supporting people to do the right thing. to be made redundant, frankly they are not going to be 1029 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1030 Workers Workers [Rachel Reeves] for East Ham (Stephen Timms), the Chair of the Select Committee, and I want to build on some of the points able to pay their rent in the days and weeks ahead. It they made both about the practical challenges people was welcome that the Prime Minister said there will be face in the midst of this pandemic and about some of support for renters, but we need to see the detail of that, the fundamental questions posed to each of us as and we need to see that support coming directly to members of a society that has left far too many people landlords and renters to ensure that nobody is penalised far too dangerously exposed, not just in the face of this because they do not have the money to pay their rents pandemic but in everyday life—a plight that has gone right now. That requires support for local authorities, unanswered for far too long. who are big letting agents, and big providers of social I want to begin by paying tribute particularly to the housing; the support needs to go to the housing associations workers in the NHS who are putting themselves in too and also large landlords, and we should be working harm’s way as they treat people in the midst of this with local government to ensure that we are reaching pandemic, and I absolutely echo what my hon. Friend and talking to the biggest letting agencies and estate the Member for Leeds West said: it is crucial that NHS agents to make sure that support is getting to the people workers have access to the right kit to do the job and on the ground. that, where there is any concern about the diagnosis of Again, I cannot stress enough how important this is; those NHS workers or their family members, they are this action is needed urgently. The representative of the considered priority cases for testing. Frankly, the hospitality sector said last night that we are staring at Government’s claim to be among the best in the world hundreds of thousands of redundancies in that sector at testing tells us only that the rest of the world has alone, so income replacement and support for people in much more to do, because we are hearing of far too the rented sector is crucially important. many cases where people who need to be tested are not The support for mortgages is a three-month holiday, receiving that test. and I say again that I am not sure that that is the right The crisis we face is not just a public health crisis; it approach in the private rented sector,because a three-month threatens to be an economic one. The supply and demand- holiday on a person’s mortgage which can then be added side shocks it will pose will be both simultaneous and to their mortgage debt is one thing, but if in three or four severe, so it requires co-ordinated action on the part of months’ time someone has four months’ worth of rent to Government and industry on a scale that we have not pay, that is not going to be much good if they have found seen since the second world war. A wartime mobilisation their incomes have not recovered by then. We therefore is going to be required for this peacetime crisis. Many need to be sensitive about ensuring that the support is families, as they gather around the kitchen table this there for the period of time that it is needed for. afternoon and this evening to consider what a loss of Finally,I want to say something about gas and electricity earnings or perhaps a loss of employment would mean and broadband and television licences. These are all for them and their families, are staring at the hard essential services for people, and they will be more reality of a social insecurity system that has left far too essential in the weeks and days and months ahead as many people grappling with poverty and insecurity, and more people are having to stay at home. Broadband is ongoing crises as a result, for far too long. No one can now absolutely an essential service, because the only or should be expected to live on SSP of £94.25 a week. way that many people can get food delivered is by No one should be expected to live on universal credit, ordering online. Again I urge Ministers to say to the which in some cases can be even less generous—if that providers of those essential services that nobody should is the right word—than SSP. So I echo the calls this be cut off from those essential services as long as the afternoon for increases to SSP and UC to ensure that pandemic lasts, because otherwise people will find our social security system provides just that—social themselves without the basic infrastructure to be able to security, not just in the worst of times, but in the best of stay in their homes. times for our country. This global pandemic has thrown into sharp relief Ministers should ask, but so should people in our some of the problems in our labour market and in our communities, how the political choices of successive social security system, so when this is all over we cannot Governments and the political demands of sections of go back to business as usual. If people cannot survive the electorate ever allowed a position in which we allow on £94.25 statutory sick pay when there is a global people who have fallen on hard times to fall into harder pandemic, they cannot survive on £94.25 at any other times still because of the social insecurity system, which time, so we need to look at the waiting time for universal pushes people further into poverty, mental ill health credit and the level of statutory sick pay, and who is and family crises, which make it harder, not easier, to eligible for it, and also, frankly, how our labour market escape from this. I suspect I am one of a minority of works. We have 1 million people on zero-hour contracts people in this House who know what it is like to grow and we have almost 5 million people who are self- up in a household that is reliant on the social security employed—some choose to be, but many have no system; what it is like when there are more days left to choice—so we need to look at how our economy works the end of the month than there is money; what it is like and who it works for, because whether we are in the when people have to beg, borrow and steal to put food midst of a global pandemic or not, there are too many in the fridge; what it is like when the electricity meter people in our country that our economy, our labour has run out and so has the emergency; and what it is like market and, frankly, our society do not work for. to feel a victim of the state, rather than supported by the state. We should resolve, in the midst of this crisis, 2.3 pm that once it is over, never again are we going to allow Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): It is a pleasure to our social security system to fail people in the way that follow my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West it did before this crisis and that it threatens to do within (Rachel Reeves) and my right hon. Friend the Member this crisis. 1031 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1032 Workers Workers Yesterday, the Chancellor set out a series of measures too many of the political decisions and so-called tough to help businesses and to try to get the economy through choices meant balancing the books on the backs of the this. I welcome those measures, but we have to learn poorest. from past mistakes. It is not enough to bail out businesses, although that is important; we also have to bail out Neil Gray: The hon. Gentleman is making a very people. As we build the economic recovery, we have to good speech, and I agree with much, if not all, of what ensure that the quantitative easing that helps provide he has said. He is coming to the very important point liquidity to our economy to help things keep going as about what happens after all this. There has been a best they can in difficult times is also a quantitative massive fiscal stimulus over the last week, and we expect easing for the people. By all means, let us call for an more to come. What none of us would expect is austerity increase in SSP, UC and disability benefits, to make mark 2 to see us out the other side. sure that people can live with dignity and have a good Wes Streeting: I wholeheartedly agree. quality of life if they are unable to work. All those things are important, but instead of quibbling about Let me conclude on this point. In the aftermath of piecemeal measures, with a bit of mortgage relief here the last financial crisis, the Labour Government—and, and a bit of rental support there, why do we not just in fact, the reputation of the Labour party—were utterly provide every household in this country with the security trashed because Gordon Brown’s Government took the to know that the Government will provide protection courageous steps that were needed to prevent a financial for people’s incomes, so that they can continue to make crisis in America, which became a global financial crisis, sensible choices for their families, so that they know from becoming a depression, which would have meant that when the end of the month comes and the mortgage people being unable to take money out of the banks. or the rent is due they can pay it, and so that they know The Government were right then not to be squeamish that when the bills are due and when they have to do about borrowing to make sure that our country got their shop, they will be able to pay for this? through it, and this Government should not be squeamish now. I have always been a sceptic about the principle of I suspect that by the end of this the Government will universal basic income, because I fundamentally believe own such a large stake of the British economy that it in an economy and a social security system that redistributes will make Labour’s last manifesto look positively wealth from those who have it to those who need it conservative in its ambitions by comparison. If that is most. I am also cynical about it because although there what it takes to see us through this crisis, that is what are many principled and decent-minded champions of the Government will have to do that. We are going to universal basic income on the left of politics, the left need a wartime response to get us through this crisis, so should regard the principle with suspicion when some let us think now about the peace that will follow. Just as of its leading champions have been right-wing economists, our generation looks back with pride at the decisions such as the father of free market economics, Adam that the 1945 Attlee Government took and the legacy Smith. There is a right-wing vision of universal basic that they left, let us think now about the legacy that we income that is about dismantling the state and that says, will leave for our country. Let us make the choices now “If we provide everyone with the income, we don’t need that lessen inequality in our country and provide genuine to provide the services centrally because people can pay social security in the best of times, not just the worst for them.” That is one reason, I suspect, why the Trump of times. Administration have not needed much persuasion to provide a form of basic income. Let us ask how it was that political choices left our social care system at breaking point and the people But although we should regard the principle with languishing in it more exposed to this pandemic than suspicion as an ongoing solution to how we provide they would otherwise have been. Let us repair our broken social security for people, there is now a strong case for social care system by making brave political choices. a form of basic income to see us through this crisis. It Let us care more about how we fund the living to lead a could be a universal payment made available to everyone, good life than about how we tax the dead. Let us make where the tax system is used to recoup the money from sure that, when people get to old age, they are not just those who genuinely do not need it. It could be a form looking back on a life well lived, but able to live life to of basic income, where those who need it simply apply the full until the end. Let us make sure that, when people for it and then receive it. It could be a form of income get to old age, they are not just looking back on a life protection, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds well lived, but able to live life to the full until the end. West described, which is already working well in Let us see this as a wake-up call. If a pandemic can Scandinavia. But one way or another, we have to make seriously disrupt the labour market, and we have to sure that families have incomes to see themselves through provide serious income protection to see it through, let this crisis, because as we have already heard, the majority us think about what a technological revolution will do of people in this country tonight are one lost payday as it displaces, relocates and significantly changes the away from being in a real crisis, and the crisis for them shape of the labour market. Let us make sure that we will be a crisis for all of us if demand is further sucked have the social protections needed now to face the next out of the economy. I hope that Ministers will take that revolution, not just the current crisis. Let us not let the message back to the Treasury. global pandemic distract us from the urgency of the Finally, it is not just the social insecurity system that climate emergency. Let us make sure that our recovery is has left people exposed in this crisis. We have to make a green recovery. sure that this is a turning point. It could be that our Finally, let us no longer listen to the siren calls of the political choices further entrench inequality in our populists and the nativists who believe that countries society—just as, frankly, the coalition and Conservative can go it alone, and that we have to build a world where Governments did after the last financial crisis, when we are all in it for ourselves. Let us recognise that global 1033 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1034 Workers Workers [Wes Streeting] involved in. The Government need to support landlords as well as tenants in the private rented sector, as well as problems require global solutions and global leadership supporting social housing landlords at the same time. through global institutions. As the Attlee Government We have heard reports about rough sleepers being on rebuilt the fabric of the country through a new welfare the tube in London and on public transport elsewhere. state and built international institutions, let us to resolve They are clearly in great distress. The support for people to do the same. outside the system is essential straight away.At this stage, as far as I can see, it is not in place. 2.15 pm Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): We have heard Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab): Does my some powerful speeches from hon. Members of three hon. Friend agree that for lots of the people he is parties. I commend my right hon. and hon. Friends for talking about—the Chancellor repeatedly talked yesterday what they have said. about those who are self-employed, for example, being It is a challenge to follow my hon. Friend the Member able to claim universal credit instead of SSP in this for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), because he spoke so circumstance—this simply is not good enough? Today I powerfully. He started with his experience of growing have had lots of reports of people trying to do that in up in the grip of the completely inadequate welfare my constituency,and they are being told by the Department system that we had then. The point he made that for Work and Pensions that they have to go to a face-to-face touched me was how dangerous it will be if we do not meeting and go through a series of protocols in order to respond to the crisis by putting in place the necessary do that. Let alone the dangers of a face-to-face meeting, economic measures right now, because we run the risk it is simply not the case that these people can get any of subjecting millions of our fellow citizens to long-term access to universal credit at the moment. hardship. That is why the situation is so urgent and requires so much action from the Government. As my Bill Esterson: I thank my hon. Friend for what she hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) says. It reinforces the point, and she made the same said, only the Government can take that action. point in the question she asked the Chancellor yesterday We in this country face a situation where the number evening. I just hope that Ministers are taking on board of fatalities had doubled in two days to 69 when I how quickly things need to change. One of my constituents looked yesterday. If that is the growth rate of the made the point that he does not qualify for statutory number of fatalities, we will be where Italy is today by sick pay, as he is self-employed. That is a real problem next Friday. That is the reality of what is happening, if for the 5 million people who are self-employed and have those figures are right. That brings home to me, and I lost all their work. Whether it is universal credit or am sure to everybody, the need for the fastest possible ESA, it simply is not anywhere near enough money. He action on health and on the economy. is staying at home, observing advice from Government My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North mentioned and not able to earn his weekly wage. Whatever is in the the need to support health workers. That applies across package from the Government, which the Minister has the public sector. The No. 1 priority is to get them already referred to, it is nowhere near enough for what protection so that they can do their jobs and to make they need. sure that the testing regime is there as quickly as possible. Another of my constituents, a nurse, asked me to It will not wait any longer. raise the situation of principal carers who live with That priority is very closely followed by the economic somebody in a vulnerable group. What is the advice for response that is needed. If we are to reassure people her? The example she gives is her son, who cares for his across the country to take the actions recommended by wife, who has a chronic respiratory disease. She is 26, the Government, and rightly spelled out by the Minister, but with that disease she is clearly in one of the highest we must also give them the financial assurance that they risk groups. She cannot work and does not leave the can do so. That has to happen straightaway. The SNP house, but what is he supposed to do? He is still going to spokesman was right in saying that it should happen in work, but with great anxiety, because he might catch the the next few hours. Yesterday’s measures were only a disease and pass it on to her. They have a mortgage and start. I accept that the Chancellor rightly acknowledged they need his income. Those are real-world examples. that they were only part of a number of steps. As a We have all heard them from our constituents and from result of this debate, Ministers are hearing further others around the country, and they show why action reinforcement of why it is important to get action for has to be immediate. individuals today—not next week. I have mentioned the self-employed and freelancers, I will give some case studies. The bus driver in London small firms and people on zero-hours contracts. The who believes that he has coronavirus symptoms is still support just is not there. If someone is employed and going to work, because sick pay would not be enough they qualify, the £94.25 a week they get is not enough. money to put food on the table, let alone cover the Universal credit is not enough. The support announced £1,200 in rent that he pays every month. He cannot yesterday for the hospitality and retail sectors for a few afford not to work. The reflexologist who works in a weeks is encouraging, but what is really needed is the care home now cannot go to work because she is a kind of cash injection that a number of my hon. and visitor. The dog kennel owner is not going to get any right hon. Friends have already mentioned, and that dogs to look after. Their income is gone. The tutor has was put to the Chancellor last night in the statement. lost all of her income. Loans are part of the answer, but there is a massive My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West talked question mark with loans from a banking system that about renters. They are often also the most at risk from many businesses still do not trust because of how it income loss, because of the nature of the work they are behaved during the financial crisis.Loans have to be repaid. 1035 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1036 Workers Workers That was the point I made to the Chancellor in the question made in this House and for the measures that the I asked last night. In reality, we have to avoid storing up Government have taken to respond as quickly as they problems further down the line with the actions that are can on such a wide range of issues. None of us in this taken now. These were very big numbers—eye-catching, room has the power of the Almighty, and we should headline-grabbing numbers, such as £330 billion—but understand that we work within human frailties. I will the reality is that the £10,000 on offer to small firms will come back to the frailties of the systems that we work not last very long as a grant. within. Then there is the question of information. The Minister Secondly, I would like to add to some of the examples mentioned the gov.uk website. Not many businesses—and given by the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil I work with them across the country—are aware that Gray) about the public’s response. This week, I have that is where to go to get this information. The Government met churches that are working on good neighbourhood need to do a lot more to get the information out there schemes. I spoke today with a playwright in the village quickly on a range of issues, using social media, television of Arlesey who is setting up a group to bring skills and radio. together in the community, to assist people. We are The grant system for businesses announced yesterday seeing the best of people, but as some Members have appears only to be starting next week. Again, that is so said, we are also seeing the worst of people. In a free much later than needed. Is there any way of bringing it society, we can see the best, but we can frequently see forward? We have heard the examples from Scandinavia, the worst. Harley Street doctors are reselling tests at a with contributions towards salaries of 75% by the high price that will not be available to everyone. That Government in Denmark, 90% in Sweden and 60% in is a disgraceful thing for anyone with a professional Germany, or 67% for those with parental responsibilities. qualification to do. We have seen pictures of hoarders The Minister said that these things take time. Why is it in shops, meaning that elderly and vulnerable constituents that other countries have been able to put these measures of mine—and, I am sure, of all Members—are not able in place so quickly, but we are not at that stage yet? to access the foodstuffs and other products they need. What is holding us back if they were able to do it? We have seen the reaction of the bosses of some of the It seems to me that if they can do it, so can we. largest companies. Are the Government looking at what the TUC has Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): On that said about a real living wage and what Members have point, I have been contacted by a constituent who has said about a universal basic income for a limited period? informed me that their employer is insisting that they I tend to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for cannot work from home because it is waiting for stronger Ilford North on that period. We need to redefine what guidance from the Government. Can the Government we mean by sick pay. It is not just whether someone is give clear guidance right now to my constituent’semployer sick; it is whether they are in danger of becoming sick and many others across the country that, if people can and infecting other people. It is about giving financial work from home, they must? reassurance and making up for the lost jobs, the livelihoods that are at risk and the contracts that have gone in Richard Fuller: I appreciate the hon. Lady’sintervention. whatever sector of the economy, for as long as it takes. I am not speaking for the Government—I am sure the Only the Government can intervene, and if we do not Minister will seek to address that—but I have to say get this right, it will be so much worse for the health of that it sounds to me as though her constituent’s employer us all and for the economy. The Government say that is just making an excuse, because the Government have they will do whatever it takes—that is the three-word been absolutely clear that it is the right thing to do slogan of the moment. “Whatever it takes” means giving socially for everyone in this country, if they have a every single person in this country the financial security concern, to be able to isolate themselves from others and they need right now to ensure that they can protect to work from home. What more does that person need themselves, their families and the rest of us. to understand what they should do? I hope they will get that message very clearly from the Front Bench. 2.27 pm On the point of leaders not doing the right thing, the Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I am experience of Virgin airlines has been raised. The owner grateful to you for allowing me to speak, Madam Deputy or partial owner of Virgin airlines has suggested that Speaker, and I apologise to the hon. Member for Wirral employees should take eight weeks of unpaid leave, and West (Margaret Greenwood) that I was not in the I decided to look at how much that would cost. Eight Chamber for the first part of her speech. I wanted to weeks at the £94.25 rate of statutory sick pay would listen and make a contribution, and I appreciate the cost £754 per employee. There are 8,571 employees of opportunity to do so. Virgin airlines, so if all of them took eight weeks of I thank the Opposition for holding this debate, which unpaid leave, that would be a cost of £6.4 million. covers two of the things that are on most people’s Sir Richard Branson’s net worth is $3.8 billion. If he is minds: reducing the likelihood that I, anyone in my able to get 2% interest on that money for eight weeks, he family or anyone I work with will get sick, and providing will earn the equivalent of £9.9 million. So I say: protection for me if that does happen; and trying to Sir Richard Branson, give up the interest on your wealth protect my job over the next few weeks and as we for eight weeks, and pay your employees yourself their recover. The debate has raised a number of issues. I am unpaid leave. not going to pick out any particular ones, but I want to Big or small—a leader of a church in a small village make some observations. or a leader of the large business—when it comes to The first is what a difference a week has made. It is looking at the protection of their workers, the time is seven days since the Budget, and these are very different now, and we will judge them all by their actions. It will circumstances. We should give credit for all the efforts be the same for the Government’s actions. 1037 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1038 Workers Workers [Richard Fuller] but nuanced features, particularly its reliance on flexible working and on self-employment. The changes that As I say, are we choosing the right policies? We have Governments have put in over the past 15 years to heard a lot about that today.I congratulate the Government create a flexible market—there are benefits to that—will on the staging of the announcements. There is so much also be tested during this pause in the economy. After pressure—all MPs are under pressure, with loads of we have gone through this crisis, I would encourage the questions: small or micro ones, and very large ones Government to see what lessons can be learnt from that. covering many issues—but I think the staging of This is also a test in terms of the enlightenment we announcements is a good approach, because we need have in our social insurance system. I was moved by the this to bed in with people each day. If we put everything contributions from the hon. Member for Leeds West into an announcement on a single day, I would worry (Rachel Reeves), the Chair of the Business, Energy and that, although we would feel we were communicating, Industrial Strategy Committee, and the hon. Member we would find that it was not being received and understood for Ilford North (Wes Streeting). It is absolutely right as clearly as it should be. that this is an opportunity for us to look at those things and to reflect. We may have different perspectives on it, Neil Gray: I commend the hon. Member’s speech and we will definitely have different politics, but only a thus far. To some extent I agree that, for preparedness fool would say that we should not look at this and learn in working through particular policies or interventions, lessons. This is no time for fools. there has to be some preparation and that does take My core message for the Government is this: the staging time. However, in terms of people’s livelihoods, people of announcements is absolutely right, so that they can are losing their jobs now and businesses are making bed in with people; use the systems we have to get decisions about their future viability now, so would he money into the hands of the people and businesses who encourage the Government, as I have, to make an need it; and follow the advice from both sides of the announcement about the financial impetus that could House, which is that we would welcome the Government’s be given to protect individuals and jobs in hours, not moving with speed between the announcement and the days, so that this response can be adequate? time that the money is available in the bank manager’s office in Arlesey, Bolnhurst or anywhere else in the Richard Fuller: Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Those yeses country,or in that person’spay packet, their bank account, are for each of the businesses in my constituency that I or their benefits slip. have spoken to in the last 24 hours that have asked for precisely that. We often think: how can a business 2.37 pm suddenly be short of money to pay its own workers Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): I thank within a short period of time? But the truth is that, in the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard some sectors, cash flow is of a nature that those issues Fuller), who has been uniquely brave in speaking from do come up. More importantly, I say to those on my the Back Benches on his side of the House. I think that Front Bench that every single responsible private sector there was much that we on the Opposition Benches business right now will be thinking, first and foremost, could agree with him about. “How can I protect cash flow for the long-term survival The scale of the coronavirus crisis means that we of my business?” One of the nearest short-term costs need to take action in many forms, and ensuring that that can be reduced is their employee cost, so there is people have economic security is second only to our the sense that this is needed, as the hon. Member rightly response in safeguarding people’s health. The point will says, in hours rather than days. To be fair, I think the come at which we have mass isolation—I feel that that Chancellor was very aware of that in his statement point is probably coming very soon—and that will happen yesterday. whether people are symptomatic or not. This unprecedented To that end, may I encourage hon. Members on both challenge needs an unprecedented response, and we sides—there are slightly more on the Opposition Benches must work together to bring forward the right response, than on the Government Benches for certain reasons—to which safeguards people and brings future confidence, think more about using what is already in place, such as not just immediate wellbeing. A measure that will do the systems that connect what the Government can do just that is an emergency universal basic income, which to those institutions and people that need it, rather than will give everyone the basic financial support they need trying to broaden it out into a big and different debate to provide the necessities of everyday life through this about whether we should have this or that. There is of crisis. course a time for debating universal income, and there My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes is time for us to think about ways in which we might Streeting), who has just left the Chamber, made some look at a better overall system in the future. very good points. In normal circumstances, this might Right now, I say to my right hon and hon. Friends on be a debate in which we would ask questions, explore the Front Bench that we should be looking at proposals different aspects of the situation and, particularly on using the existing arteries of the financial system, of the the Opposition Benches, talk about the benefits of benefits system and of the pay-as-you-earn and tax universal basic income versus universal basic services. I system that can reach people, either to amplify payments suggest to the Government that if we had universal that are already made or to reverse flows from into the basic services in areas such as childcare and social care, Government to back out to those who need them, and we would be in a much better place to weather this crisis I ask them not to get too distracted by items along than we are with just a single universal basic service, the the way. national health service, taking the brunt of the crisis. We should also recognise that in this period there will Putting that aside, and thinking about where we are be a test for the labour market structure in the United and the phase of the coronavirus crisis that we are Kingdom. The UK does have some not quite unique about to enter, we need to take this step. We just need to 1039 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1040 Workers Workers think about how our economy has changed fundamentally have heard mention of the Irish Government today. since 2008, with the number of self-employed people The UK Government now need rapidly to develop a having risen over the past 15 years from 3.25 million comprehensive approach and provide a safety net for all people to more than 5 million people. They can only workers, and, indeed, all renters, who are uniquely properly be protected through a universal basic income, vulnerable in the current crisis. Let me explain what that as can those who will sadly lose their employment means to local people in Reading and Woodley, the area through redundancy, temporary lack of work or the that I represent. Self-employed people are the absolute failure and closure of businesses because of the crisis. bedrock of our local economy, carrying out a range of Let us think about the app-based driver, the zero-hours activities in the knowledge economy, public services and warehouse worker, the children’s entertainer and the other forms of service, retail and distribution. agency-supplied care worker. None of them has an Let me begin by highlighting the role and the importance employer. The Government can incentivise by keeping to our local economy of IT subcontractors. Some of the them in work. A universal basic income would be more largest IT businesses in the world are based in our part holistic and more effective than subsidising a company of the Thames valley.Those large businesses subcontract payroll, which currently seems to be the Government’s to many,manysmaller businesses,most of them one-woman main tool in dealing with the crisis. or one-man bands who are very dependent on a relatively Finally, let me, just for a moment, look across the unstable economic situation. As a growing and rapidly Atlantic to the United States of America. Normally, on expanding area close to London and the midlands, we this side of the House, we do not look to the United have a large amount of construction taking place. We States of America, but just yesterday the US Treasury have many small builders and other tradespeople who Secretary, Steve Mnuchin, said that cash infusions could are dependent on jobs and work which is relatively happen swiftly: short-term, and who may see only a few weeks ahead “We’re looking at sending checks to Americans immediately.” economically. We also have a vibrant transport sector, That sounds very much like a temporary universal basic with a large number of people employed in the aviation income to me. Well before this crisis, Andrew Yang, the industry at Heathrow, many taxi drivers, and many former Democratic contender for the presidency, said people who work on the railways. All are part of a that a universal basic income of $1,000 a month should transport sector that looks set to be severely constrained be introduced. He is now speaking directly to the White because of the crisis. House. Donald Trump himself has said: Reading is the main shopping town for the Thames “I think we’re going to do something that gets money to them valley and the related parts of the south midlands, and as quickly as possible.” we also have a vibrant gig economy, with a number of This is a measure that will get money straight to people distribution centres and warehouses nearby.Many people and give them that basic economic security. Let me say in this group are also renters, so we have a double hit in to Ministers that if Yang and Trump can work together, our local economy. We have many people who are surely so can Sunak and McDonnell. vulnerable because they have only one month’sguaranteed income ahead, whether they are professional people, 2.41 pm people with trades, or people who have other skills, and in the same group of people we also have many young Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to families living in rented accommodation, which is very speak in this important debate. Let me start by thanking high cost in an area that is similar in cost to outer my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West London or the centre of major cities around Britain. (Alex Sobel) and many other speakers, including the I draw the Minister’s attention to this local example, hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard which reflects the situation in many towns and cities Fuller), who spoke very eloquently, and my hon. Friend throughout the country. There is this collision and the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting),, who reinforcement: people have insecure incomes, are vulnerable made some thoughtful and far-sighted points. and have not yet had their situation addressed by the I want to address not just the policy responses that Government’smeasures—however helpful those measures we need, but the underlying scale of the problem. We are for larger businesses—and they are also renters in a have heard today that as many as 5.5 million people in high-cost local rental economy, where rental income can this country are self-employed. I want to describe my be as much as £1,000 a month for basic accommodation. experience of that as a constituency MP, but also to set We need to take action and to take it urgently. Will it in the context of the wider crisis that we face. the Minister reconsider the Government’s approach, We face an unprecedented situation, and I fully focus on the needs of these groups of workers and acknowledge the action that the Government have taken. renters, and think about the world from their perspective? Measures to reduce the spread of the outbreak are vital, Their income is not guaranteed and is vulnerable, and and I am pleased that Ministers have announced robust they are the bedrock of the local economy in so many measures this week, including the measures to support parts of our country and, indeed, in the country as a businesses that they announced yesterday. However, I whole. They deserve our support and respect. We need want that action to go much further and to be much to come up with a realistic and workable plan, using more resolute, because of the scale and need of people whatever policy measures are necessary to protect them who work for themselves, and those who are on low and their family income and to ensure their safety and incomes or in the gig economy. security. I support the range of measures outlined earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret 2.47 pm Greenwood). Let me draw the Minister’s attention in Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): Has the Minister particular to the approach taken in Scandinavia, and seen proposals from the Communication Workers Union, also by a number of other European Governments: we which yesterday called for Royal Mail to act in effect as 1041 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1042 Workers Workers [Navendu Mishra] the Government reconcile that with their current advice that some employees will have to self-isolate for up to a fourth emergency service? Royal Mail is the only 16 weeks? With thousands of local and independent organisation in the country that puts workers on every businesses already scared for their continued existence, single street, six days a week, and postal workers are will the Government reconsider their policy and offer trusted in every community. Whether it is through the SSP refunds for the total period of time that employers delivery of prescriptions or food bank parcels, or by are required to claim during this crisis? checking on elderly people who might need support— I do appreciate that these are unknown and challenging particularly if care services cannot be provided to them— times, but I urge the Government to consider people Royal Mail could play an important role, if appropriate who are falling through the SSP safety net and to act precautions are taken. quickly and compassionately now. Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the Communication Workers Union? Does he agree that 2.51 pm this idea should be explored as a matter of urgency? Will he commit to speak to the union and Royal Mail to Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): We discuss it? conclude this debate on statutory sick pay and protection for workers at a time of immense uncertainty, as we are 2.48 pm witnessing an implosion in our labour markets and Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): It is difficult to people’s lives being turned upside down. As we have follow such powerful speeches and such great orators, long feared, those in the most insecure work have little who have made their points so eloquently, so I shall be resilience to weather this storm. As we speak, thousands brief. But I make no apology for reiterating the points of people are being laid off, falling into hardship and on which we need the Government to act now. fearful for their future. We cannot let the story of coronavirus also be the one about avoidable poverty, so, Statutory sick pay will now be available for eligible today, Labour is highlighting how Government must individuals diagnosed with covid-19 or those who are take a far more robust approach to create the safety net unable to work because they are self-isolating in line that we all need. with Government advice. It is right to commend the Government for making SSP available on day one, The Government have said that no one should be instead of day four, for affected individuals. However, at penalised for doing the right thing, yet without stronger this time of intense worry and strife, it is also right to underpinning of statutory sick pay and employment highlight where the Government must act to help those and wage protection, many will be plunged into serious who need it. debt, unable to pay their rent, their bills and even for Statutory sick pay is £94.25 a week, as we have their food, as my hon. Friend the Member for Reading already heard. The equivalent weekly payment on the East (Matt Rodda) set out. national minimum wage is £307.88. How can the UK I will, if I may, start with workers’ protection. We need Government justify forcing potentially millions of people all workers to be kept safe and to be protected from to live on less than a third of their usual weekly income? contracting coronavirus in the first place. Employers The Chancellor himself stumbled when asked whether must maintain their duty of care. Too few workers still he could afford to live on that sum, and I implore have access to appropriate PPE, as my hon. Friend the colleagues from all parties to ask themselves the same Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) set out while question—could they? paying tribute to NHS staff, and I endorse what he said. The UK Government’s covid-19 advice on statutory Yesterday, community pharmacists in my constituency sick pay on the gov.uk website is a total of only 13 lines, highlighted to me how they have now become the but universal credit is mentioned three times.It is important frontline of healthcare, and yet they only had a tiny that the Government seek to ensure that those who are stock of plastic pinnies, gloves and masks. Tradeswomen not eligible for SSP, or those who are self-employed, are and men such as plumbers will need to carry out urgent aware that they can claim for universal credit. That is home repairs so will also need protection. Care staff fine, but my colleagues and I have spoken numerous need to be provided with PPE and not expected to pay times in this place about the difficulties inherent in the for it themselves. universal credit system. I refer to the fact that applications Workers must never feel that they have to choose must be made online and claimants wait a period of five between health—their own and that of others—and weeks for their first payment. hardship. Even after yesterday’s announcement, they Will the Minister tell me what steps the Government were offered little comfort. I have three asks on SSP, are taking to assist those who are not able to leave their isolation leave pay and families’ and carers’ leave. First, homes, and who are also unable to access the web, so no worker should be excluded from statutory pay protection that they may apply for the benefit? Furthermore, what for sickness or isolation no matter their employment steps are the Government taking to ensure that new status—employee, worker, self-employed, office holder universal credit claimants who are self-isolating, some or limb (b) workers. This should also apply no matter for periods of up to 16 weeks, do not have to wait five what a person earns, which is why the lower earnings weeks for their first payment? Alternatively, will the limit must go, and no matter whether a person has Government consider extending the period over which already taken 28 weeks SSP. All who work should have advance payments must be repaid? statutory pay protection for sickness and isolation from The UK Government will refund SSP for small employers day one. who employ fewer than 250 people. This refund, however, If people are required to stay away from work, or are will cover only up to two weeks SSP per eligible employee staying away to protect their health due to existing who has been off work because of covid-19. How can underlying health conditions, they should not be penalised 1043 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1044 Workers Workers and neither should their family members be penalised, needs at such a time as this, so will the Secretary of as my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central (Bill State ensure that taking leave for family emergencies Esterson) set out. Life must come first. We also need and for care provision becomes a right—not a right to these measures to reach beyond the narrow application ask, but a right to get—and that people remain fully of coronavirus. People will be isolating because they remunerated while doing so? While most employers will have signs of the virus, but not the virus itself. Vulnerable be accommodating, this is a critical time, and we need people are at risk from all communicable diseases and to ensure all parents and carers are supported in this so the application of the measures needs to apply to all national effort. sickness and isolation absences. While many companies I further want to raise the issue of pace. While are establishing full pay for those sick and in isolation, welcoming the Chancellor’s announcement that he will others are not. This inequality must be addressed. Universal work with trade unions and businesses to provide wage credit is no substitute, as my right hon. Friend the protection, this needs resolving now—this week. If Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) and my hon. Denmark and other countries have brought forward a Friend the Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) scheme of wage protection, there is no need to reinvent highlighted with their experience, and, as we have heard the wheel; we can deliver a scheme through the emergency in the debate, it pays even less than SSP and takes five legislation being laid tomorrow. As my hon. Friend the weeks to process. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) said, if it is who set out the plight of those who have no recourse to good enough for workers in other countries, it is good public funds; that must be resolved. enough here. Simple changes to section 16 of the Health and Denmark’s first coronavirus case was on 27 February Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 and section 64 of the and New Zealand’s first case was on 28 February, and Employment Rights Act 1996 would ensure that all they have developed and delivered support already. The workers were fairly remunerated and did not experience UK’s first case was on 31 January, and we still have hardship; with the underpinning of statutory sick pay nothing to protect people’s incomes. People are losing UK workers would be protected to levels we are seeing their jobs now, and it could be avoided; it must be elsewhere. avoided. Employers need confidence that the Government Secondly, as life must come first, to reduce a worker will deliver a package of wage substitution; workers to poverty levels of statutory sick pay at just 18.4% of need confidence that they will not face poverty. We need the average wage will not be sufficient for those forced interventions now so that jobs can be saved. to make a choice between health and hardship. We Many workers, where there is a cessation of work cannot afford for anyone to go out to work if the through this crisis, may step up in the national effort to determination is that they should isolate or are sick, but provide vital services elsewhere in the economy, for if they are battling to keep their head above water instance in health and care. They will be doing the right financially, they may lessen the severity of their sickness thing, so can the Secretary of State ensure their position to justify just to themselves that they are not really a in their substantive jobs is protected when they return risk. so that like someone returning from maternity leave, At a time when other countries are significantly raising they will be able to return to the job they left? their statutory sick pay, the UK, which pays the lowest I endorse my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport rate of statutory sick pay compared with the EU27 (Navendu Mishra) in highlighting the extended role countries, must now ensure that statutory sick pay that others such as postal workers can play. I urge the provides vital protection. The TUC has highlighted Government to meet the CWU and to explore that how the real living wage is the right benchmark when terrain further. full pay is not paid. Many in today’s debate across the The last few days have exposed the weaknesses in House, including my hon. Friends the Members for zero-hours contracts—workers who are reduced to zero Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) and for Ilford North, hours, yet must still be available to work. Those workers have highlighted the opportunities a universal basic are desperate. Some 1.87 million of them will not qualify income would provide. The Prime Minister earlier said for statutory sick pay, and 70% of those people are that he is willing to look at that, and he must. women. I ask the Secretary of State to end this insecurity In light of the possible scale and duration of isolation in work. All workers need security, not least at a time and sickness expected to be taken, the £1 billion package such as this. Will she move to ensure that all employment announced by the Chancellor is totally insufficient. Will become substantive, and that workers are placed on the Secretary of State return to the House this week and proper contracts underpinned by the same securities confirm that she will, through a poverty prevention afforded to all employees? measure, ensure that statutory sick pay is paid to take Workers and employers are being called upon to take away the additional fear of financial hardship, so people extraordinary steps to protect our country from the will be able to pay their rent bills and fuel and food? worst aspects of covid-19. They need a Government Without this significant shift, people will be dependent who recognise all the challenges they face, and who will on other sources of income support, perhaps food provide the full protection that they need. The Chancellor banks and other charitable support. However, we know promised to do this, so will the Secretary of State ensure that these are areas in themselves experiencing major that all the holes that continue to exist in the safety net challenges at this time. The infrastructure to underpin are closed, with the publication of the emergency legislation. this completely avoidable poverty is so fragile, so statutory Will she ensure that workers get the support they need pay must rise. to save them from hardship? All these things are political Thirdly,parents and carers are also facing new challenges choices. Making the right call today may save us from as they are having to significantly change their lives. No the worst aspects of an economic crisis, and reset the one should be denied the right to meet family and carer dial for a fairer and more equitable country to come. 1045 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1046 Workers Workers 3.1 pm A number of specific points have been raised, and I will try to cover as many as possible. The hon. Member The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) raised the important and Pensions (Will Quince): First, let me thank all point about the communication of changes. Everything Members from across the House who have taken the is on gov.uk, and Departments also use social media, time to attend this important debate, and to speak such as Twitter, to highlight changes. There are also about their concerns in such a constructive and collaborative daily press conferences where updates on coronavirus way. I will try to answer as many of the numerous points are given by the Prime Minister, and he is increasingly raised as possible, but I stress that—as hon. Members being accompanied by another member of the Cabinet. know—my door is always open and my phone is always However, I take the hon. Gentleman’s point that on. If Members have urgent cases, please reach out to communications in times like this are incredibly important, me and other Ministers on the Treasury Bench; we will and I will certainly feed back to the Cabinet Office that look to take the appropriate action, as necessary. where improvements can be made to Government As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor made clear communications, particularly for businesses—that is the yesterday, we will do whatever it takes to support people, point he made—that should be done. jobs and businesses, and to help people to protect their loved ones. This includes the measures we are taking on Bill Esterson: I am grateful for that answer, and I statutory sick pay, in order to ensure that everybody is know the Minister will do his best to carry out what he supported to do the right thing and follow the Government just promised. Will he also make sure that that information advice on self-isolation. We must come together to fight comes to us and to local authorities in a timely fashion, this virus and protect the most vulnerable, and statutory as we are often in a position to get it out to a great number sick pay is part of our welfare safety net and our wider of people in a short space of time? Government offer to support people in times of need. That is why we are ensuring that our welfare safety net Will Quince: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making provides the right level of support in these exceptional that case. I know from my postbag and email account times. We have extended statutory sick pay to those who that a number of businesses and individuals affected, are self-isolating, in line with the latest Government who are concerned on health grounds or who have health guidance, and the upcoming emergency Bill will concerns about their employment or financial status, make statutory sick pay payable from day one instead will contact their Member of Parliament. We are not of day four. This is the right thing to do to ensure that always the first port of call—we are sometimes the eligible individuals are supported to stay at home in last—but we are one where people expect to be able to self-isolation, protecting themselves and others. get a response quickly, so I will look at what further As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out, the guidance and advice we can give to Members of this Government will stand behind businesses, both large House and through local authorities. That point about and small. As a DWP Minister, I know that the best way getting the message out to local authorities may well to support people is through protecting their jobs. Small have been heard, because the relevant Minister, the and medium-sized businesses are the backbone of our Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities economy, and we will support them to implement these and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member measures. Employers with fewer than 250 employees for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall) , is sitting on the will be able to reclaim up to two weeks’ statutory sick Treasury Bench behind me. pay paid for sickness absences relating to the coronavirus—a The hon. Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) measure that could help up to 2 million businesses. raised the point about SSP and the rebate for employees, These changes will help to provide certainty and security and whether that could be for more than two weeks. I for individuals and businesses affected by coronavirus. understand the point she is making. The current Government advice is for people to self-isolate for seven Statutory sick pay is just one of the Government’s days or for 14 days if in a household, so we feel that the offers of support and protection. The safety net also two-week limit on rebates is a proportionate response. extends to those who are self-employed or who work in She also asked why SSP is not at the same rate as the the gig economy. Workers on zero-hours contracts or in living wage. The current system is designed to balance the gig economy may be eligible for sick pay and should support for the individual with the costs to the employer. check with their employers, but we are here to support As the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work those who are not eligible, and they can make a claim mentioned at the beginning of this debate, we have put for universal credit or contributory employment and £1 billion into the welfare system to provide additional support allowance. Last week, we made changes so that financial security for people, and people on low income the seven waiting days for employment and support can get a top-up, where applicable, through UC. allowance for new claimants affected by coronavirus or required to self-isolate will not apply. That means that Numerous hon. Members, including the hon. Members ESA is payable from day one, without the need to for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) and for Leeds West provide medical evidence and without the need to attend (Rachel Reeves), raised a point about the private rented a work capability assessment. Those required to self-isolate sector. Today at Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime or who are ill with coronavirus can receive up to a Minister did say that we will be bringing forward legislation month’s advance from day one, with no need to physically to protect private renters from eviction, and the Ministry attend a jobcentre—that point was raised by Opposition of Housing, Communities and Local Government is Members. Any individuals affected by coronavirus will considering whether we need to go further on that point. have their work search and work availability requirements The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) switched off, and affected self-employed claimants will and the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil not have a minimum income floor applied during this Gray) both raised a point about the consultation on the period. lower earnings limit. Our immediate concern in dealing 1047 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 18 MARCH 2020 Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for 1048 Workers Workers with the covid-19 outbreak is to ensure that a suitable been clear throughout the debate—to protect themselves financial safety net is in place, and the benefits system and others. The measures that we have announced and does provide that. We estimate that about 60% of people will put forward in the emergency Bill will support earning below the lower earnings limit are already in people to do so. receipt of benefits.Our longer-term aim in that consultation Tocome directly to the hon. Lady’spoint, the Chancellor was about preserving the link between the employer and has announced that in the coming days the Government the employee so that the individual receives appropriate will go much further to support people’s financial security, support upon return to work. That is less relevant when working with trade unions—another point made by the most people are facing short periods away from work. I hon. Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra)—and or the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work businesses to urgently develop new forms of employment would be happy to meet those Members at a later point support to help to protect people’s jobs and incomes to discuss that further. through this period. I know that the hon. Lady would Numerous hon. Members asked why the focus so far like to tempt me to go further but, as I think she will has been on businesses and has not just been about understand, that is somewhat above my pay grade. It is individuals. It is so important that organisations are very important, however, that debates such as this take able to carry on trading, which is why the initial focus of place, because it will have been heard by Her Majesty’s Her Majesty’s Treasury has been on supporting business Treasury and will be taken in the spirit of working and keeping people in work where it is sensible and collaboratively on a cross-party basis. I certainly take appropriate, based on Government guidance, to do so. those ideas on board, and if Members have further Ultimately, that protects so many individuals in our ideas about how we can better support some of the society,but of course we are also looking at other measures most vulnerable people in our society, my door is always for workers. open, and I would welcome them coming forward with those. The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), the right hon. Member for East Ham The right hon. Member for East Ham, the Chair of and the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts all made the Select Committee, raised the point about the habitual the point about raising the level of statutory sick pay. residence test. The test has operational procedures already We continue to look at other support for workers to see in place to expedite confirmation of eligibility, but I will what best mechanisms are available. Thankfully, a period take this point away and give it further thought—I had of absence is likely to be short—we believe between not given it consideration before he raised it and I seven and 14 days—but we know that some may need would be very happy to meet him to discuss it further. extra support, as Members across the Chamber have said. We have a safety net that helps people facing hardship We know that low-paid workers are likely to be receiving if they cannot work or are seeking work. Depending on additional support through universal credit, for example, their individual circumstances, employees can claim and the advantage of universal credit is that it will go up universal credit and/or new-style ESA or JSA. As the if income falls to the equivalent SSP level. Prime Minister set out, the Government will keep everything under review. The package that was set out at the Budget Rachel Reeves: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving and the new measures that were recently announced way and for addressing the points that hon. Members should give some reassurance that support will be provided have made. It is true that people will not have to take to support jobs, income and businesses. As the Chancellor that long off to self-isolate for their recovery, but overall, said, we will do “whatever it takes”. there is likely to be a suppression of demand in the Weare in extraordinary times.The coronavirus pandemic economy for a longer period. The idea that people may is the most serious public health emergency that our be off work for only one or two weeks is fine if that is nation has faced for a generation. Our policy is to for health reasons, but if it is because their business is protect lives and fight this virus with everything we closed or there is just not work available, it is likely to be have, and the Government have been clear in their a lot longer. That is the point that many Members have approach: we will do whatever it takes to get the nation been trying to make. through these testing times. We will protect people, their jobs and businesses through this period to ensure that we keep as many people as safe as possible. Will Quince: I thank the hon. Lady for making that point. I reassure Members that the Government are Question put and agreed to. doing all they can to ensure that everybody is supported Resolved, to do the right thing. It is crucial that everyone follows That this House has considered the matter of Statutory Sick the Government guidance on self-isolation—that has Pay and protection available for all workers. 1049 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1050 Public Services Local Government Responsibilities: Care providers are also facing increased cost pressures Public Services due to staff self-isolating or being off sick. It is right that statutory sick pay will start at day one, rather than day four, but that will increase employers’ liability for 3.14 pm statutory sick pay.Requirements for workers to self-isolate Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I will further increase financial pressures on employers. beg to move, Given that, in virtually all cases, care providers will have That this House has considered the statutory and broader local to backfill sickness absence to ensure the continued government responsibilities for public services, including social delivery of support, that represents a real cost pressure care. on providers. With local authority budgets stretched, In the coming weeks and months, it is right that the how can they support care providers to provide for Government focus on the fight against coronavirus. extra statutory sick pay, the cost of backfilling care staff Local government will be on the frontline of that fight. and the personal protective equipment and other materials Local services, from social care and public health to bin that will be needed to get through the crisis? collections and now, most importantly, support for volunteering, will help us to overcome the challenge. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making a compelling case for It is a time of uncertainty for many people across the why the Government should announce specific support country, and the Government need to provide as much for the social care sector. I noticed yesterday that the certainty as they can. One thing we know is that older Chancellor did not make specific reference to the social people, and those with underlying health conditions, care sector which, as my hon. Friend points out, is in a are at greater risk from coronavirus than the rest of the fragile state and under enormous pressures. Is it not population, as is clear from the social distancing guidelines time for specific support for the social care sector to be issued for those groups this week. That means that, in announced? the coming months, social care will be more important than ever because it not only helps to keep hospital beds Barbara Keeley: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is clear for those who need them, but touches the lives of great to hear that the NHS will get what it needs, but some of the most vulnerable. Care staff, therefore, will what about the social care sector? often be on the frontline of our efforts to stop the spread of the disease. We know, as my hon. Friend just said, that many care providers were already on the brink of collapse. Many Weare particularly concerned about home careworkers, will not have reserves to fall back on. I ask the Minister, who might provide care for up to a dozen older and as my hon. Friend just has: what will the Government disabled people in their homes every day. We want all do to sustain care provision and ensure that care providers necessary measures to be taken to protect care staff and are able to carry on delivering care at this time? the people they work with. As with the NHS, an important part of the solution is personal protective equipment Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. and measures for infection control. Friend is making a good point about social care in the Care providers will face extra costs due to the need broader sense. I want to raise the needs of local charities, for more personal protective equipment and for enhanced some of which provide social care, and others provide a cleaning of care homes and people’s own homes, and range of other services. Does she know whether some of other measures to minimise the spread of infection—for the funding that the Government have allocated to local example, zoning some staff in care homes. Last week, I authorities will be earmarked to support continued raised with Ministers the fact that providers have faced funding of those local charities and community groups, great difficulty in obtaining personal protective equipment, or whether that has not yet been considered? and that also applies to infection control products, hand wash and disposable hand towels. Barbara Keeley: That is a very good question, and we The care sector is extremely worried about being able should ask it in addition to the questions that I will ask, to get essential supplies such as personal protective because the independent and voluntary sector is vital in equipment. Commissioners can mitigate that by funding our communities and in care provision. the extra costs and by helping providers to access personal I want to touch on the issues facing care homes across protective equipment, perhaps by using some of their the country. We know that the Government are asking own contracts. The Government need to give guidance older people to avoid social contact for the next three to local authorities and care providers, however, on the months, but we need to be clear—clearer than we have provision and use of personal protective equipment for been—about what that will mean for people in care careworkers and on whether help with accessing supplies homes. Will the Government recommend that all visits can be given to reduce the spread of coronavirus. from friends and family be stopped until June? Can the We have just had a debate on statutory sick pay, Minister tell us what guidance on visits they are giving which is particularly important for care staff, who are to organisations running care homes? Providers and on the frontline of the outbreak. If they are ill, it is vital their networks do not seem to have had any clarity yet. that they follow the public health advice and self-isolate, The Care Quality Commission has announced a pause but the reality, as we heard, is that many care staff, like in its inspections, freeing up staff time to focus on care, other staff, cannot afford to do so. Even if they are but today it has published its independent review of eligible for statutory sick pay, which we do not think Whorlton Hall. That was a shocking scandal. People they all will be, it is only £94 a week. The Minister needs with learning disabilities and autistic people and their to set out now what the Government will do to ensure families will want reassurances that, once this crisis that no careworker has to choose between doing the passes, the CQC will focus its full efforts on ensuring right thing and facing overwhelming financial problems. that something like Whorlton Hall never happens again. 1051 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1052 Public Services Public Services Many older and disabled people do not receive formal Gareth Thomas: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for social care. Instead, they rely on unpaid friends and giving way to me a second time. Is there not also a family. I know that many unpaid carers are worried that broader point about certainty of future funding for they will contract coronavirus or have to self-isolate and local authorities and certainty about which of the additional be unable to give the care they normally do. What steps costs they face from coronavirus will be met by central should any unpaid carer who has symptoms of coronavirus Government going forward? My local authority, which take? If they are being asked to self-isolate, what alternative is not by any definition well off, is concerned about care can be provided at short notice? If someone cares when it will receive clarity from the Government on for a person they do not live with, what steps can be which costs it can reasonably expect Ministers to cover. taken if the carer has to self-isolate or if the Government have to further restrict travel, as many unpaid carers live Barbara Keeley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. some distance away from the people they care for? We will need certainty about those things when we look Young carers—children and young people—may need at the coronavirus emergency Bill, which we will do more support than others in managing the changing shortly, but this lands on local authorities at a time situation in their lives, especially if their local supermarket when they do not have any certainty. There is much or pharmacist does not have supplies. It is important about their financial position that needs to be made that, if schools or years within schools close, it is clearer to local authorities. I also agree with my hon. understood which children within those schools are Friend: my local authority has had budgets cut by more identified as young carers. It is often the case that a than 50% since 2010, and we were in what we were school or a teacher within a school is the only person calling a crisis in social care even before this happened. who knows that one of their pupils is looking after I want to talk more fully about people with dementia someone at home. Schools could nominate a lead person and people with learning disabilities. There are a million to make regular contact with young carers during this people with dementia in this country and many people difficult time when they are not in school. with learning disabilities. Not all of them will be able to comprehend the importance of self-isolation and then Another major issue facing carers is the supply of act appropriately. What measures and guidance will the medicines, hygiene products and food. Carers have to Government introduce to help people with learning source supplies such as antibacterial wipes or disinfectant disabilities or dementia to self-isolate? Many working-age themselves. Unfortunately, we have seen panic buying people with disabilities may be more vulnerable.Conditions of those goods, making them far harder to acquire. such as Down syndrome or multiple sclerosis could What can the Government and local authorities do to increase the risk of respiratory infection, and the guidance ensure that unpaid carers and the people they care for suggests that people with these conditions would self-isolate. do not have to go without crucial supplies, including Can the Minister tell us what financial support will be food? available for them and their families if they have to stop The Government’sreasonable worst-case scenario implies work to do that? that we can expect to see one in five workers off sick at We understand that this is a difficult and challenging the same time. There are an estimated 122,000 vacancies time for all, but the Government have talked of using across social care currently—a workforce problem that volunteers in health and social care services. People we know forces existing care staff to cut visits short or with disabilities and older people who need care have work beyond their paid hours. It is understandable that some of the most complex care needs. How will the people receiving care and unpaid family carers are very Government ensure that people with complex needs concerned about how care can be provided if we get to a continue to receive the support and care they need to situation where large numbers of care staff are off sick stay in their own homes? or self-isolating. In the coronavirus Bill, the Government want to Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): In this make changes to the Care Act 2014 to enable local crisis we need to make the most of volunteers and that authorities to prioritise the services they offer, in order spirit in the community of helping out, but at the same to ensure that the most urgent and serious care needs ensure that things such as Disclosure and Barring Service are met, even if that means not meeting everyone’s checks are done appropriately and that vulnerable people assessed needs in full or delaying some assessments. I are kept safe from other risks, including those of am sure that we will discuss those measures when we unscrupulous interveners. consider the Bill next week, but the guidance on the Bill says: Barbara Keeley: I thank the right hon. Member for “Local authorities will still be expected to do as much as they that intervention. I think most of us are concerned in can to comply with their duties to meet needs during this period our constituencies to ensure that we have enough people and these amendments would not remove the duty of care they to help out, but do not have the wrong sort of people have towards an individual’s risk of serious neglect or harm. getting involved. We do not want to start seeing scams These powers would only be used if demand pressures and and people defrauded, because that would be a terrible workforce illness during the pandemic meant that local authorities way to proceed. were at imminent risk of failing to fulfil their duties and only last We need to look at how far we can stretch the idea the duration of the emergency.” that volunteers can help in health and social care, I know that people who are worried about this will want because in certain situations—for example, an elderly to hear any further guidance on the circumstances person with very poor skin condition, with sores, who under which the powers would be used. Finally, I want needed particular lifting, or somebody who was PEG-fed, to touch on some of the issues facing specific groups using percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy—we cannot who are receiving social care. even use DBS-checked volunteers. 1053 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1054 Public Services Public Services Dame Diana Johnson: There are people who genuinely more teaching staff off work ill or self-isolating. Schools want to help and do their best for their community, but are being closed for certain years, and other closures I am concerned to ensure that DBS checks are in look increasingly likely.I have seen that in my constituency. place—an issue that has been alluded to—and also For many children, school is a place where they can get about infection control, which fits nicely with what my breakfast and free school meals. If children have to stay hon. Friend the shadow Minister has just said about at home, they may go hungry. What support will be put some of the procedures that people may be asked to in place to protect those children if schools are closed, help with. There are real questions about the training whether that means providing food for them or ensuring and the infection control that need to be in place if we that social services are monitoring their condition? use volunteers. Lastly, I want to mention bins and waste collection. The safe handling of waste that could be contaminated Barbara Keeley: Very much so. I am following all the by coronavirus will be a major challenge for public social media input from my constituents, and I am glad health and for the protection of the staff who work in to see that people are very keen to help. However, we that vital service. Will the Minister tell us what action is must be careful, because we are talking about very being taken alongside local authorities to ensure the vulnerable people, often with complex care needs, and continuity of waste collection services, given that the we do not want to put them into difficulties through the staff who work in those services will themselves be subject efforts of volunteers, so we need guidance on that point. to illness and self-isolation? Let me turn to self-isolation. I had to self-isolate for We also need to think about council tax. If the five days last week, and I know it is not easy, but it will Government are giving business rate relief for coronavirus, be particularly hard for people with anxiety disorders, why not council tax relief for the general population? If who rely on a routine to cope. Both now and once we people are out of work for an extended period, council are on the other side of this, what support will the tax is a big cost. Councils would need reimbursement Government be offering to help address the mental for lost income, as they would with business rates. health consequences of the pandemic and of self-isolation Additionally, we need councils to show some restraint or shielding for long periods? I noticed in the media that with pursuing council tax arrears through the courts. there were programmes showing what is being done in Although loss of income for councils could be a very Wuhan in China, with hundreds of counsellors talking big issue at a time like this, depending on how long to people on a phone helpline, talking them through the everything lasts, everything points to Government support difficulties they were experiencing. I think we may have and action for that. I should say to the Minister that I to be thinking about something like that. In particular, am happy to supply him with a list of all the questions many older people are now looking at several months I have asked, because it is very difficult for him to potentially locked down in their own home, so what can answer everything all in one go. the Government do to ensure that those people do not Coronavirus poses a unique challenge for this country. become lonely and isolated, with all the mental health We will all need to work together to tackle it. The work consequences that would cause? that local authorities do will be central to addressing The challenges facing local government over the coming the crisis and will help to hold communities together as months are not limited to social care. The Government we do so. It will not be easy, and I am sure there are finally published yesterday the public health grant for many issues we have not foreseen. I thank everyone the next financial year. Between 2014-15 and 2019-20, working in local government and in social care and all budgets were cut by £870 million, although there has our teachers and teaching staff, because they are a vital been an increase to the grant this year. While the frontline service. I hope the Minister can reassure the publication of the allocations finally provides some House that local authorities will get all the help they certainty to local authorities, the reality is that their need in the weeks and months ahead to tackle this crisis public health functions are likely to be focused on and to carry on providing the services that people rely coronavirus for the foreseeable future. Public health on every day. services such as smoking cessation are vital to prevent people from acquiring long-term health conditions such 3.34 pm as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, which can The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, make a future case of coronavirus more serious. Will Communities and Local Government (Luke Hall): I thank the Minister commit to allocating further money to the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara public health if local authorities need it to keep people Keeley) for the constructive and collaborative tone she safe during the crisis? has taken in this debate. She has raised a number of The other major area of concern is homelessness. very sensible and serious questions. I will do my best to The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and answer as many as I can, and I will try to make sure the Local Government announced a fund yesterday to help ones I cannot answer are answered in the wind-up. local authorities provide accommodation for homeless I join the hon. Lady in putting on record my thanks people who might have coronavirus, which is welcome, to local authorities across the country for their wholehearted but given the scale of the homelessness crisis in this response to the coronavirus crisis and for reassuring country, can the Minister tell us whether that fund will and supporting residents. I have seen that with my local be topped up if needed? We do not want local authorities authority, and I am sure Opposition Members have to have to ration support now because they think they seen it with their local authorities, too. I know hon. might need some of it later. Members on both sides of the House will join me in I understand we are expecting a statement at 5 o’clock recognising the contribution local authorities will make on education, and the Government are not yet closing in the weeks and months to come as we move through schools—we may hear more at 5 o’clock—but we do see this difficult time for our country. 1055 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1056 Public Services Public Services As the Prime Minister has said, this is the worst public Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): This health crisis in a generation. We are committed to is such an important topic, as the Minister appreciates, responding, and our measures are comprehensive. We and our local services and local authorities are very are offering UK-wide support to ensure people in all much on the frontline. What will happen in terms of four corners of the country receive the help they need. emergency legislation for the powers that local authorities Our fiscal action will support public services, households have, and how will the democratic process work in this and businesses, and whatever resources the national crisis? health service needs, it will get. I am working closely with the Secretary of State for Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con) rose— Housing, Communities and Local Government and Luke Hall: I give way to my right hon. Friend. with ministerial colleagues across Government to ensure councils get the funding they need to see their residents Theresa Villiers: I hope the Minister and the House through this crisis. Our priority response is to provide will take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the security and support for those who get sick, and for workers involved in local authority services, including those who are unable to work, through the direct funding those in the care sector—not only care workers but of public services. Of course, we stand ready to do cleaners, too—as well as those who cleanse our streets whatever is necessary to support councils in their response and who collect our refuse. None of them can work at to the coronavirus. home, and all of them are putting themselves at risk by The Secretary of State addressed over 300 council being in the public space to do their job to keep society leaders in England on Monday and outlined the three safe and to keep society going. It is important to send priority areas on which we are asking them to focus in out the message that we appreciate them, just as we the weeks and months ahead: social care, supporting appreciate our wonderful NHS staff, too. vulnerable people and supporting local economies. Luke Hall: I thank my right hon. Friend for those Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I words. She is absolutely right: we should commend our welcome this as a nudge in the right direction. Although public servants and local authorities hugely for the I appreciate the “dear colleague” letter we have all work they will be doing in the days and weeks ahead, received and what the Minister has just said, there is and I would like again to put on the record my thanks still a vulnerable group of people who risk being overlooked to them. If the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington by the Government’s initiatives, and that is the elderly (Matt Western) will bear with me, I will touch on his and vulnerable who live on their own, whether or not point a little later. they are ill. There is a risk that they will be inadvertently We have already outlined an extensive package of overlooked in such a scenario and in such extraordinary support to combat the effects of this crisis. A lot of the times. As a society, we have to reach out to them. points made by the hon. Member for Worsley and I urge the Minister to look at this again because, at Eccles South and other hon. Members were, rightly, the moment, that group does not feature in anyGovernment about future funding for local authorities. I completely initiative. The Government should be sending a clear understand that, and perhaps it is worth addressing that message that they will provide whatever support it takes at the start of my remarks. for local councils to reach out to those people. Many The Chancellor announced last week that £5 billion may be in rural settings, but there may be a lot in the would be made available for the public service response, city, too. Local councils should reach out, locate them, with more to come if and when it is necessary. Let me identify them and offer help, if necessary tying in local say right from the start that we know that councils are charitable causes or charities to help them in that assistance. under considerable financial pressure in responding to The message must go out to local government to reach this crisis. We know that they will need more financial out, because we do not want anyone to be left behind. support from the Government, and we will give them Luke Hall: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. that support. We are still having conversations with the I give him my assurance that the work has already sector—the Local Government Association and councils started. We are already starting to compile those lists —to refine exactly what that might look like, but we will and, of course, we are working with local resilience outline further steps we intend to take in this area very forums and councils, which will be the fundamental shortly. units in administering that support. We will, of course, Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): Local councils talk more about this in the weeks ahead. do not get their income only from business rates and Mr Baron: I do not want to test the Minister’s patience, council tax; we should recognise that, in the context of but I want clarity on this issue. This is not just about 10 years of austerity, many have used their trading those who may be self-isolating or who may be ill; it is opportunities to generate income. For example, Luton about people living on their own who we simply do not Council relies on passengers going through our airport know about, whether or not they are healthy. We have to generate income that funds council services. With the to reach out and find out. Is that what the Minister is massive changes to airlines, that income will drop off. saying from the Dispatch Box? Obviously, that will need to be taken into account in any support offered by the Government. Luke Hall: Yes. I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. Our response measures sit alongside the Luke Hall: I thank the hon. Lady for putting that well-versed contingency plans and frameworks we have point on the record. She is absolutely right to do so. I for times of difficulty. Everyone here will appreciate very much hope that we will outline imminently the that, perhaps now more than ever, we rely on our public steps that we are looking at taking to support councils services, and I am confident they are up to the task. further. 1057 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1058 Public Services Public Services [Luke Hall] about whether that was the totality of the amount; I assure her that that was the initial funding. We are of Yesterday, the Chancellor announced in the House a course continuing to look at what will be a complex series of measures to support communities in response matter as we look to support some of those people into to the crisis. The funding he announced amounted to accommodation during self-isolation periods. more than £330 billion of financial support, equivalent to 15% of UK GDP. The £10,000 grants to small Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): I am pleased businesses that are eligible for small business rate relief that the Government have announced financial support, and the £25,000 grants to retail, hospitality and leisure but support for local councils is about more than just businesses operating from smaller premises will no doubt money. We have to be serious: this is about the people help to alleviate pressure on local businesses across the who deliver essential services, whether it is sweeping the country, but we understand the pressures that are about streets or being carers. What steps are the Government to come. The Secretary of State for Business, Energy going to take to make sure that we have enough people and Industrial Strategy will write to all local authorities working at councils if a lot of council staff have to in the coming hours to set out how exactly those are to self-isolate or are sick? We know, for instance, that a lot be delivered and the mechanisms by which they can be of airlines are currently laying off a lot of people; is administered. there any provision to use people who have recently been laid off to provide some of the essential services to Dame Diana Johnson: I am interested to hear that. keep our country going? My concern is that my council, Hull City Council, is under enormous pressure trying to deal with the surge Luke Hall: I thank my hon. Friend for making that that it seems we are about to see with covid-19. Will point in the way that he did. All local authorities are, of local authorities receive additional resources to allow course, working through their contingency plans, which them to do all the things that the Government are include staffing plans. I am happy to sit down with him asking them to do to support the business sector? Are and ensure that we look in detail at his local authority’s councils getting sufficient money to enable them to do contingency plans. It is worth confirming that additional that? military personnel will help local resilience forums with their coronavirus response plans. In order that local Luke Hall: I am sorry to give the hon. Lady a similar government bodies can focus on the priorities of supporting answer to the one I gave the hon. Member for Luton social care, vulnerable people and local economies, we South (Rachel Hopkins), but we will outline a package must allow them to direct their resources into the key of support very shortly. I can assure her that that priorities on which we are working with them. We do guidance will be out by the end of tomorrow. I very not want to slow down their response times, which is much hope that by that time her local authority will why we are looking at giving councils greater flexibility. have security to start financial planning. That is also why we have confirmed that routine Care Gareth Thomas: I understand the difficulty the Minister Quality Commission inspections will be temporarily has in giving us the clarity we would all like on our suspended. Wewill take a pragmatic approach to inspection authorities’ particular concerns. Certainly, my local and will, of course, continue to take the proportionate authority would like clarity that this package of support actions necessary to make sure that we are keeping will not be for just this financial year, albeit that the people safe. support, and clarity on what it can be spent on, is We are also allowing councils to use their discretion needed now. Given the impact that this situation will on deadlines for freedom of information requests during have on local authority finances beyond this financial this period, and we have extended the deadline for local year, it would be reassuring to have soon the beginnings government financial audits to 30 September this year. of some certainty about financial support for the next Weare considering bringing forward legislation to remove financial year. Local authority staff would also like the the requirement for annual council meetings to take ability to get in contact with people in Government so place in person, and legislation to allow council committee they can understand and pass on answers to some meetings to be held virtually, online, for a temporary of the detailed questions that businesses and other period. Legislation is also being prepared to postpone organisations have about what the Government are local elections until May 2021, with measures to be announcing. introduced by the coronavirus Bill. Weintend the legislation to cover all local elections and by-elections during this Luke Hall: Those are two points well made. On the period. hon. Gentleman’s second point, if he is having any trouble at all communicating with my Department, he Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Does the should please let me know directly. I assure him that we Minister agree that we have amazing communities in are speaking to councils every single day to make sure this country? I have been on the phone to local authorities that we communicate information as quickly as possible and volunteer groups in Hastings and Rye today, and in this fast-moving environment. We understand that the way that our communities are pulling together to getting out the guidance as quickly as we can is going to help in this crisis is absolutely phenomenal. It essential be vital. that we facilitate that as much as we can, and I know As the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South that that is what the Minister is doing. said, the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government announced the initial £3.2 million Luke Hall: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: the targeted at rough sleepers and people who are in danger community spirit that we see throughout the country, of sleeping rough, in case they need accommodation with people rallying to support friends, neighbours, should they need to self-isolate. She asked for assurances vulnerable people and loved ones,is absolutely inspirational. 1059 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1060 Public Services Public Services I have seen it in south Gloucestershire and my hon. Friend One of the questions the hon. Member for Worsley has seen it in Hastings and Rye, and I know it is happening and Eccles South raised was about PPE, and she was all around the country. I will touch on that later in my right to do so. We need to make sure that the care sector remarks. has the PPE that it needs. I would like to update the We have given councils the flexibilities that I outlined House that free distribution of fluid-repellent facemasks to ensure that they are not required to divert staff from from the pandemic flu stock will start today, with every their urgent tasks, allowing them to get on with the care home and every care provider receiving at least 300 priorities that we are setting out. facemasks that will be distributed through the usual I also wish to talk about social care and the measures channels. It will take seven days to distribute the full that we are taking with regard to that key priority area amount, but it is a good start to make sure that people that the Secretary of State has outlined. We know that have the PPE that they need. We are of course also social care, especially for the elderly and disabled, will thinking about beyond next week, and we are working be at the forefront of our response to coronavirus. The rapidly with the wholesalers to ensure the longer-term Government will ensure that whatever our social care supply of all the aspects of PPE, including gloves, system and national health service needs, it will get. As I aprons, face masks and hand sanitiser, which the hon. mentioned, we have already set aside £5 billion to Lady also raised. support our NHS and public services. We also published on 13 March guidance on adult social care for care Dame Diana Johnson: My issue is about the volunteers, homes, home care providers and supported living providers. and I wonder whether the Government have given any The guidance sets out how to maintain the delivery of thought to removing the charge for Disclosure and care in the event of an outbreak of widespread transmission Barring Service checks to hopefully speed the process of coronavirus and what to do if care workers or up so that the cost is not incurred, to help to get the individuals being cared for have symptoms of coronavirus. volunteers to where we need them to be. As part of that essential contingency social care Luke Hall: I reassure the hon. Lady that we are planning, we and local areas are also considering how looking at speed and depth at all these issues to make best to harness the many people who are so keen to help sure that we get the approach right. Several hon. Members as volunteers to alleviate the pressure on social care have rightly highlighted the fact that we are talking workers and the system. It is going to be critical that about protecting some of the most vulnerable people in local authorities work very closely with the care sector our society, so of course we want to get that balance to ensure that providers build on the existing plans and right. We are considering in detail how that is best protocols that are in place to respond to the challenge. achieved, but I will absolutely make sure that that point We are also confident that local authorities will work is taken away. with the national health service in their areas and regions to make sure that people are cared for in the Barbara Keeley: I would just like to ask a further most appropriate setting. The health and social care question on the protective equipment that we have just workforce is under increasing pressure, and volunteers talked about. I am glad to hear that masks, hand will be an invaluable resource for local areas to draw on sanitiser and any of the things that are needed are in the event of emergencies. We will say more about this coming forward, because there has been a lot of concern in the coming hours and days. in the care sector about it. I would like it to be a I am confident that all Members will support the consideration that in some of the situations that care Government’s efforts to make sure we have the best staff will be, they will need what is in very short supply possible use of the fantastic skills and willingness to in the NHS. They are going to need more, because it is help of our citizens in responding to this crisis. not just a question of normal infection control. We need to protect the care staff themselves, because I David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) think there is a very real fear that may cause more (Con): I completely agree with what the Minister said people to give up on the job if we are not careful about about the reliance we will place on professionals and it. It is too risky for the staff to have that contact with volunteers. One of the concerns that has been raised maybe up to a dozen people in their homes every day. I with me by my local authority is that many of those hope we can expand our thinking to take into account professionals are in the process of qualifying and they that sometimes the more serious PPE that is used in will be asked to see examinations that they expected hospitals will have to be used by care staff. to take—qualification processes—deferred, so that they can spend their valuable time now focusing on those Luke Hall: I am glad the hon. Lady welcomes some who are most in need. Can the Minister provide some of the immediate progress being made. She makes an assurance to those professionals that the understandable important and serious point, which I will consider in interruption to their professional qualifications will not depth. I am happy to discuss it with her in the days ahead. in any way disadvantage them in the progress they would otherwise have made, so that they can get on We must also acknowledge that the crisis will not with that vital job today, knowing that they will be able only put enormous pressure on our social care system to return to their studies, qualifications and professional and our most vulnerable people,but hit our local economies. development in due course, without inappropriate We must play our part to protect those around us as interruption? well as to actively protect the local economies that underpin our communities.I will therefore set out measures Luke Hall: My hon. Friend makes a very important the Government are taking to reflect that local priority. and sensible point, and I will make sure that that is Local venues, including pubs and theatres, are the given some further thought. I thank him for raising it in pillars of local communities, and we understand the the debate today. importance of giving them our wholehearted support in 1061 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1062 Public Services Public Services [Luke Hall] essential part in the wider national effort. We have taken decisive action already by providing additional funding the weeks and months ahead. That is why we are giving to key public services and directly to the most vulnerable. all retail, hospitality and leisure businesses in England a We have acted by lightening the regulatory burden on 100% business rates holiday for the next 12 months and local authorities.Wehave acted by reviewing and improving increasing grants to small businesses eligible for small local resilience and economic preparedness efforts. I business rate relief from £3,000 to £10,000; we are also am, like other hon. Members, aware that we will need to increasing the planned rates discount for pubs to £5,000 do more in the coming weeks. We stand prepared to do as part of mitigating the social and economic effects of that. I will ensure that I am available to any Member of the virus. this House who wants to discuss their local preparedness and to meet their local agencies. Our resilience teams Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): We have are, of course, engaged with every local area to make two theatres in Milton Keynes. Understandably, they sure that we have absolutely up-to-date intelligence in are incredibly worried about their future. What specific Government, to knit together at the national level. measures are being taken to support theatres at this Our commitment to ensuring that local authorities time? Perhaps I could intervene with a further point to have the tools they need to respond to coronavirus is do with breweries in a minute. unwavering. We will give councils the support they need. We will be able to outline the further steps we Luke Hall: May I suggest that my hon. Friend and I intend to take very shortly.In supporting local authorities meet after the debate, so I can outline in detail some of to deliver the services they need to deliver, we will do the measures relevant to his local establishments? I whatever it takes. would be happy to do that. It is important that as part of mitigating some of the 3.59 pm effects of the virus, we are working with the 38 local resilience forums in England, which have plans and David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I start by thanking frameworks for pandemic influenza already in place. the Opposition for bringing forward today’s debate. I We will supplement our support for LRFs with a new wish to approach my speech in two parts: first, to taskforce to compare preparations, to identify gaps and address the effect of the coronavirus pandemic; and to highlight where additional assistance might be required then to finish with some comments on the social care for local authorities. system more generally. I think we would all agree that this is an appropriate Matt Western: The question from my local authorities, opportunity to thank, and indeed to pay tribute to, our is will his Department issue guidance on how they join public services workers, who are under enormous pressure up the local authority resilience partnership with the at the moment, as we battle with the impact of covid-19. local health resilience partnership? One of my big concerns as we deal with this crisis is that we run the risk of overlooking the needs of special Luke Hall: I assure the hon. Gentleman that the local populations within our society. That point was made by resilience forums engage regularly with the local health the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) partnerships—in fact, many health partnerships have a earlier. A great many people rely on our social care seat on the LRF. I am happy to take a look at his local system and, understandably, they are very worried at LRF and discuss the matter with him, to make sure that the moment. that conversation is happening. We are working to If we put ourselves in the shoes of someone who ensure that LRF preparedness is ready across the country, depends on visits by carers each day just to carry out including with tabletop exercises. We have Andy Battle, our basic daily functions, we can imagine the anxiety a retired deputy chief constable, looking through all the felt. I know that organisations in Glasgow East are plans, and I am happy to look at the hon. Gentleman’s already scaling back some of their activities, and this local plan specifically to make sure there is sufficient will inevitably lead to increased isolation that will only engagement with the national health service in his serve to deepen their concerns. I very much endorse the community. comments made by the shadow Minister,the hon. Member The covid-19 LRF taskforce will also enhance LRFs’ for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), about abilities to respond to coronavirus by rapidly assessing PPE. For my own part, as a constituency MP,I am trying preparedness. We are continuing to work closely with to co-ordinate and engage with community organisations local authorities and their partners to prepare for the and stakeholders to ensure that these issues are addressed most intense phase of the crisis, and by helping local and that problems of gaps in service are quickly addressed. businesses and communities to plan, we will be prepared I am aware that today’s debate focuses specifically on as a nation to meet the challenges we face. local government and social care. Although that is We will take whatever action is necessary to ensure devolved, I thought it would be helpful to outline that local government can continue its vital function in briefly the situation north of the border. The Scottish the weeks ahead. We are committed to supporting local Government are allocating resources over and above government to deliver our priorities of social care, Barnett consequentials to support frontline spending providing vital support for vulnerable people and supporting on healthcare in Scotland, and they will be providing all their local economies. Local partners are keeping their the support that local authorities need in the coming plans under constant review and getting close support months, as we face unprecedented demand. Although from this Government to ensure that plans are fully up not necessarily to repeat what the UK Government are to date and reflect the relevant scientific advice on saying, we certainly endorse “whatever it takes” in that coronavirus. For now though, it is clearly right that we regard. We are increasing our package of investment in focus on ensuring that local authorities can play their social care and integration by 14% to £811 million in 1063 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1064 Public Services Public Services the 2020-21 budget to ensure that health and social care the cost of adult social care rises and the amount of services are fully joined up for patients and to ensure central Government grant goes down—it is the point on that the actions taken by local authorities have the the graph at which those two things intercept. We are desired effect of reducing demand. well past that now, so local government is used to There are some really good models across the country reacting to changing financial circumstances and filling that I want to draw to the attention of the House ever so that gap with either locally raised revenue through taxation briefly. East Lothian health and social care partnership or locally raised revenue through commercial ventures. has put in place a short-term assessment and rehabilitation The hon. Member for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins) team to reduce delays. Along with other measures, this mentioned the powers used by local government in led to a 44% reduction in bed days lost between 2012-13 Luton relating to commercial activities around the airport and 2018-19. Likewise, Inverclyde has introduced a —[Interruption.] They have an airport, what can I say? “home first” approach to ensure that returning home is The point here, of course, is that there are many ways of the first option in the majority of discharge situations. skinning a cat, and local government has had to face That model saw an 82% reduction in bed days lost between adverse circumstances in the past, and I am sure that 2012-13 and 2018-19. In spring 2016, Aberdeenshire our friends in local government will rise to this challenge established virtual community wards as an alternative as it stands today. to hospital-based care, with 93% of GP practices participating, and it was estimated that 1,640 hospital Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): Is it not the case admissions had been avoided. that this is the kind of situation where it is not just It is therefore possible to do many innovative things about local government? This is one of those rare to meet the challenges of social care, but the fact is that occasions—the first time in my lifetime—where it is not we are all living longer and we are going to have major sufficient for the community to dial 999 and leave it to workforce issues in social care, some of which have been local government or the emergency services. We, the discussed today. In the future, it would certainly be people, will be on the frontline, directed and co-ordinated beneficial to have a UK Government who were more by district councils,or county councils,as in my constituency willing to listen to policy suggestions from the Opposition of Broadland. It is our opportunity to stand up and be side of the House. If there is one thing that the current counted to protect those who have to be shielded—the crisis has shown, it is that cross-party working is essential most vulnerable in our society including the elderly and to tackle major problems. I hope that is a lesson we have those with underlying medical conditions—and that is all learned and that we will learn over the coming both a wonderful opportunity for us to demonstrate weeks, particularly as we emerge from the other side of our cohesiveness as a society and also our fundamental the coronavirus outbreak. duty to look after those less fortunate than ourselves. I want to turn to local government and our support Ben Everitt: I could not agree more with my hon. for statutory services. The Scottish budget for 2020-21 Friend. The job of local government is on the frontline. has increased revenue funding for local government, Any job of a public servant such as ourselves, or councillors and the SNP has empowered local authorities to raise or council officers, is to look after the most vulnerable additional income if they wish. Additional revenue in society. If we do not do that, we are not a society. funding, taken together with potential council tax income, Speaking of the most vulnerable, in Milton Keynes, means that councils have the potential to access another we have a persistent problem of homelessness, which £724 million of revenue funding in 2020-21. Throughout possibly provides one of the best examples of partnerships the coming weeks and months, it will also be vital to between local government and the voluntary sector. I reassess our social care systems right across the UK to have been very fortunate to visit many charities in ensure that they are properly resourced to deal with the Milton Keynes since being elected to represent Milton mounting and certainly unprecedented crisis. Keynes North. We have a winter night shelter, the Whether in social care or local government, in Scotland YMCA, the Salvation Army and, of course, the Bus we are certainly meeting the challenges of the day with Shelter, which is run by volunteers, with a full-time a focus on protecting budgets and supporting the most on-site manager. It takes street homeless people off the vulnerable in society. Although very uncertain, we will streets. They get a bed for the night in Robbie Williams’ certainly rise to face the challenges of tomorrow in the old tour bus, which seats, I think, 18, but it normally weeks ahead. holds eight clients. It was wonderful to meet the clients, 4.4 pm to see how they access the service and how the service helps them get their lives back on track and into work. Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): These are Milton Keynes has received over £2 million of central unprecedented times. One thing that comes through Government funding for homelessness and rough sleeping quite clearly for me is community spirit. It was illustrated since Christmas, which is incredibly welcome, because by my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye this is a critical time to support those who are on the (Sally-Ann Hart), and will be the thread that runs street. That is a good example of how the voluntary through my remarks, and probably through everybody sector, charity sector and local government can come else’s remarks as well. together to solve a problem. I must draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as I am a David Simmonds: Does my hon. Friend agree that councillor. I say that these are unprecedented times, but that is a clear illustration of why we need to have the in local government we have had unprecedented times maximum possible flexibility for local authorities in for quite some time. I remember back in the late noughties, deploying these resources at a local level? Those examples we had the Barnet Council graph of doom. I do not of creativity and innovation are replicated by local know whether any fellow local government finance authorities across the country, but local circumstances aficionados remember this, but it is the point at which vary enormously. Does he agree that we must encourage 1065 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1066 Public Services Public Services [David Simmonds] demands on their core statutory services, adult social care and children’s services have continued to increase, the Minister to take the view that the more flexibility and the need for housing and homelessness services has and less bureaucracy there is for local authorities in spiralled as a direct consequence of the welfare policies using that money effectively at a local level, the more of a decade of Tory Governments. value we will extract from it in delivering for our residents? In that context, the shift to reliance on business rates Ben Everitt: Again, I could not agree more with my is of grave concern. Business rates have been the hon. Friend. I am sure that the Minister for Local Government’s only game in town for local government, Government, who is sitting on the Treasury Bench and we now face an economic calamity that may result listening avidly to the pleas of councillors for more in business rates revenue simply draining away. It is flexibility in the way that local government spend their imperative that the Government come forward with finances, will heed that call. proposals for how councils will be supported to sustain services in the context of the risk of business rates Knife crime is a new problem for Milton Keynes, and collapsing. Our councils are stepping up to play their it is incredibly worrying, but it is another example of part in multiple different ways, as the closeness and where the public sector can work in partnership with proximity of their relationship to communities make communities and the voluntary sector. The police are them uniquely placed to do so, but there is a lack of on the frontline of knife crime, and I am pleased that resilience across all our public services. After the last they have extra money, officers, kit and powers, all of decade, that is completely predictable and therefore which are focused in Milton Keynes on solving the issue completely inexcusable. of knife crime. The extra money is incredibly welcome, and I will come back to that. There will be an extra I turn to a couple of areas of public services that are 187 officers for Thames Valley, of which 36 will be in responding to the crisis as they relate to our councils, Milton Keynes. In terms of the extra kit, it really helps the first of which is social care. Our social care system when the police know that they have a Taser to use. was in crisis before the coronavirus pandemic struck. About 1 million people eligible for social care are not There are also extra powers for the police. Parents receiving any, and the sector needs about £3.5 billion of say—again, this relates to the intersection between the additional funding just to meet additional needs. Across public sector and the community—that, when the police the country, councils of all political persuasions are use section 60 powers, it gives them confidence to know struggling to deliver the social care services that local that an area is being policed. It also has a deterrent residents need, and private contractors continue to hand effect for young people who might think about going out contracts back to councils. with a knife. Now, social care workers are at the frontline of the It is through the extra money that there is an intersection response to covid-19, caring for some of the most with the public sector. Diversionary activities through vulnerable residents and working hard to take on additional boxing clubs, interventions in schools or projects such caseloads as hospitals work urgently to discharge people as the knife angel are incredibly good for bringing to free up bed space needed for the pandemic, yet many communities together. There is a demand management social care workers are paid the minimum wage and issue. There is also a data challenge, to enable the public remain on zero-hours contracts. sector, voluntary sector and charity sector to work together on a data-led response to a situation. Last week, 100 parliamentarians from both Houses and many political parties joined me in writing to the 4.13 pm Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to ask that social care workers be placed on the same footing Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I as NHS workers with regard to sick pay during the would like to start by commending the work that our coronavirus pandemic. NHS workers and contractors local councils are doing in response to the coronavirus have been guaranteed full pay if they are ill or need to pandemic. Faced with an unprecedented set of challenges self-isolate, but no such commitment has been made to across social care, education, children’s services, housing social care workers. It is vital that low-paid workers, and homelessness, they are providing access to advice and whose jobs bring them into contact with many of the support for many people who are distressed, worried people most vulnerable to covid-19, are not forced to and facing hardship as a result of the public health and make an impossible choice between taking action to economic calamity we are seeing, while sustaining day- protect the safety of those in their care or putting food to-day services such as bin collections, parks and libraries. on the table and keeping a roof over their family’s head. Our councils are doing that in the context of 10 years of I have not received a response to my letter and, despite unprecedented cuts to their budgets and a total absence raising the issue in the Chamber, there has been no of coherent strategy for local government from central indication from the Government that they understand Government. the urgency of the issue or that any action is being The Housing, Communities and Local Government taken. Lives will be lost if low-paid, workers with Committee observed during the last Parliament that precarious jobs are forced to make impossible choices. I there has not been any assessment from central Government hope that in responding to the debate, the Minister will of the responsibilities of local government across its provide a definitive commitment to social care workers statutory and non-statutory functions and no objective in response to covid-19. assessment of the resources needed to fulfil the task at hand. Instead, our councils have been cut to the bone. Dame Diana Johnson: My hon. Friend is making an Both my councils have lost more than 60% of the excellent speech. On that point if, as seems likely, schools funding they received from central Government in grant. in England are going to close in the next few days, They have been forced to raise council tax, which is childcare will need to be provided to allow key workers regressive and hits the poorest residents hardest, while who have been identified in the NHS to carry on 1067 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1068 Public Services Public Services working, perhaps through skeleton schools. Should that amount that London Councils alone needed to implement also be used for key workers who provide social care in the Homelessness Reduction Act was similar to the local authorities, so that their children are part of any total national funding the Government made available. provision that is made nationally? Now we face two additional challenges: the first is the Helen Hayes: My hon. Friend makes an excellent vulnerability of rough sleepers to coronavirus and point. Social care workers, together with healthcare the impossibility of self-isolating when someone is on workers, are at the frontline of the crisis. They must be the streets. There has been no Government response on offered every support possible to enable them to keep this issue. Will the Minister say what arrangements are working throughout. being made to contain the spread of covid-19 among rough sleepers? Will funding be made available for More widely, there are grave concerns about the extra emergency accommodation that is suitable for self-isolation capacity that will be needed in the social care sector in in addition to the funding that has already been made response to the crisis. Earlier this week, I visited Turney available to tackle the endemic problem of homelessness, School in my constituency, an outstanding school for which existed prior to this pandemic? children with special educational needs aged four to 19. Of the more than 130 children at Turney School, 90% are Secondly, the economic crisis that threatens to engulf eligible for free school meals, many have multiple and our country has the potential to increase homelessness complex needs, and most have a diagnosis of autism. If, further. The lack of attention to the predicament of as we hear, schools across the country are likely to close private renters has been disgraceful, but without that shortly, there will be an urgent and immediate need for thousands of people will find their homes at risk. Will additional social care support for Turney pupils and the Minister commit to ensuring that no one will lose many thousands of children with special needs across their home as a consequence of coronavirus? the country. Our councils are now being asked to administer large Schools such as Turney fulfil not just an educational amounts of the financial support that the Government role, but a social, emotional and respite role for children are providing in response to this crisis, yet they have not and their families.ManyTurney families live in overcrowded, been provided with any guidance, and they are not poor-quality accommodation. Self-isolation in such being supported with additional capacity.Local authorities circumstances will be intolerable and the need for social that have been cut to the bone might find additional care support will be critical. The same is true for all financial administration very challenging, so will the children in receipt of free school meals and those who Minister set out what support is being provided to councils are potentially at risk at home. The social care sector to ensure that they are able to administer hardship will need to step up to meet the needs of our most funds and business support without delay and without vulnerable children. impacting on other services? Finally, in relation to social care, I raise the issue of Across many areas of responsibility, local government access to personal protective equipment. Vulnerable is at the frontline of this unprecedented public health people with covid-19 will still need support with personal and economic crisis. It is the job of our councils to care, and no one should be made to put their own ensure that the burdens of the disease do not fall on the health at risk in the course of doing their job. I welcome poorest and most vulnerable in our communities. It is the Minister’s comments on PPE, but will he set out the the job of central Government to ensure that they are detailed plans to ensure that all social care workers, properly funded, equipped and supported to do so. whatever setting they are in and whoever their employer is, will have access to PPE? There is serious concern 4.23 pm about the impact of the crisis on autistic people and people with learning disabilities, more than 2,000 of whom Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): I thank the Opposition are still trapped in inappropriate hospital accommodation. for introducing this important debate, and the Minister As hospitals restrict visitor access, and as the emergency for some very helpful information that he gave in his legislation contains provisions to short cut detention response. under the Mental Health Act 1983, what steps are the Let me put on record my appreciation of the efforts Government taking to uphold the human rights of of the ministerial team. This is an enormous crisis for autistic people and people with learning disabilities and everybody, but I want to congratulate them for the to ensure that community services being stretched even speed with which they are responding in ways large and further do not result in more people reaching crisis small. Some of the information we have just heard is point and being detained in hospital? very helpful in small ways for councils, particularly as The second area of council services I want to raise regards making it easier for councils to meet to do their todayis housing and the homelessness service.Homelessness business more flexibly given the crisis. That will be very and housing need have risen dramatically during the welcome at local authority level. past decade of Tory austerity. A failure to fund the I pay tribute to the spirit of the Opposition Front building of new, genuinely affordable social housing or Benchers as well. It is absolutely tremendous to see how regulate private renting, combined with cuts to welfare this House is coming together to address these issues. I and the disgraceful five-week universal credit wait have want quickly to address two points. The first, which has driven up homelessness. been raised by other Members, is the amazing response I was proud during the last Parliament to be a co-sponsor of our communities to this crisis and to the impending of the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017, and a recent demand for support from the elderly, in particular—it is report by Crisis concludes that the new legislation has absolutely wonderful to see. been making a difference, but London Councils has I have some anxiety about how we will co-ordinate made it clear that the level of funding provided by the that effort in a way that does not stifle it. I was a Government was far from adequate, estimating that the community worker in north Kensington at the time of 1069 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1070 Public Services Public Services [Danny Kruger] my borough, spending on young people fell by a whopping 76.9% between 2011 and 2018. As a result, many people the Grenfell disaster. I saw a huge uprising and upsurge now believe that young people’s lives could be worse of voluntary support and effort—an outpouring of love than their own generation’s, and some argue that children and resources from the community—but there was a and young people in Britain are among the unhappiest, huge challenge of co-ordination. We are going to have unhealthiest, poorest and least educated in the developed to get that balance right in all our communities in the world. Yet, it is widely observed that soaring inequality coming months. Today, I was speaking to council workers fosters resentment and division. In fact, the all-party in my local authority of Wiltshire, where there is a good parliamentary group on knife crime explicitly linked balance. Council staff are not attempting directly to knife crime to council cuts. Nothing in the Budget last co-ordinate the efforts of the volunteers and local week will solve the crisis facing young people’s futures. community groups that are rising up. They are not Then there is the education crisis. Schools and early trying to tell them what to do or how to do it. What they intervention services have faced significant cuts in particular, are doing is providing a hub for information exchange, and parents of children with additional needs are struggling and providing support when gaps do emerge. to have their children’s learning needs met. Only a few David Linden: That has been one of my concerns weeks ago, it was a privilege and an honour for me to throughout this process. Lots of organisations in my stand with local special educational needs and disabilities constituency are absolutely up for the challenge, but we campaigners outside Downing Street to present an invoice need to ensure that there is no duplication, particularly for £12 million—Tower Hamlets Council’s projected when it comes to things such as food security. Does the SEND budget overspend by 2022. hon. Member agree that although it is not necessarily Parents, families and communities work very hard to for local authorities to do that co-ordination, it would support our children, but we are let down time and be good if helpful tips and ideas were disseminated again by the system that we are forced to struggle throughout the UK so that we avoided the issue of within. When things do go wrong in families and duplication? relationships, the support so often is not there. For example, the availability of specialist support for those Danny Kruger: I entirely agree. There is a huge role who report domestic abuse varies enormously around for social media in the sort of organic, spontaneous the country. According to Women’s Aid, 10 domestic co-ordination that we are seeing, but there is also a role abuse victims are turned away from women’s refuges for the public sector, particularly local authorities. It every day because of a lack of space. While it is good to would be very helpful for the public to hear a clear see that the long-awaited Domestic Abuse Bill includes communication from the Government that we entirely a new legal obligation on councils to provide secure support and encourage this sort of voluntary effort, but refuges for victims, it is important that the necessary that anybody who wants to try to match volunteers with resources are provided alongside that responsibility. In households and so on needs to plug into local government my local council, the number of recorded incidents of in parishes and towns, particularly in rural areas such as domestic abuse is above average, and nothing in the the one with which I am concerned. Budget will address the crisis of violence against women Secondly, on local authorities’ lost income, I hear the or mean that every case of domestic abuse is taken points that have been made very powerfully about the seriously and each individual given access to the support additional burdens that will be placed on local authorities they need. as a result of the demand that we are going to see, but Social care is also in crisis in this country. Before the councils are also going to endure lost income as a result coronavirus outbreak, 1.5 million people were not receiving of this crisis. In Wiltshire, we are worrying about up to the care they need. As Members will know and have £25 million-worth of income that is normally received raised today, the majority of those who receive social through all sorts of activities such as leisure services, care are older, disabled and vulnerable people—the very parking, council tax and so on. We are stepping in to people who are most at risk from the coronavirus. It is support businesses with lost revenues, but we need to still very unclear from the Government statements so think about how to do that for councils as well—not far what additional support is being provided. In the just helping them to meet the additional demand for meantime, providers and local authorities are already services, but compensating them for their losses. stretched to breaking point in many areas, so we need to know now how much additional support is being provided 4.26 pm specifically for social care. Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): People To be frank, I am truly shocked and surprised that are understandably very worried at this time of crisis. I those in the Conservative party still attempt to justify am afraid that the Government still need to step up and the cruel strategy of austerity, which has decimated provide the certainty that the public deserve. It is vital local government funding over the past decade, forcing and urgent that they demonstrate that they are meeting working-class people to pay for a financial crisis they all the challenges head on, not least because it is did not cause. It is a shameful indictment of any economy overwhelmingly clear that years of cuts and a failure to that so many people are trapped in low-paid, insecure invest in services mean that we are extremely ill prepared work and invariably failed by the social security regime. for dealing with this type of large-scale health risk to It is shameful that earlier this year, the Joseph Rowntree our community. Foundation found that the proportion of people in The truth is that the Conservatives have let us down, work who live in poverty went up for the third consecutive and they have let down my constituents, who have been year to a record high. It is shameful that, according to disproportionately disadvantaged by austerity.For example, End Child Poverty, at 58.5% my constituency of Poplar spending on youth services has been slashed by 70% since and Limehouse has the highest child poverty rate in the 2010, with a real-terms cut of £880 million. Locally in entire country. 1071 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1072 Public Services Public Services Yesterday, the former Secretary of State for Health that was grieving could deal with the situation. It is and Social Care admitted that the Government’s harsh impossible to do that directly from this House, which is and uncaring policies have caused suffering and austerity, why the Government have rightly taken the view that whose onslaught has been brutal. Cuts equal crisis, and they will look at the strategic question of providing an by that I mean that every cut and every closure has had appropriate level of resources and then enable those a real and serious human cost. As we speak, the people people in their local communities to route that money of my constituency understand the gravity of the situation directly to where it makes the most difference. they are faced with and are trying to support each other My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes the best they can, as they always have done. Right now, North (Ben Everitt) referred to the provision of a bus to public sector workers, who are the backbone of our make emergency accommodation available for homeless communities, are working in the most extreme of situations people. Many of us have local authorities that have to provide vital services.This is not a time for half-measures contracts with local voluntary organisations, for example, or indecision, but for those in power to step up and deliver the YMCA, as in the case of my local authority, to the scale of intervention, leadership and co-ordination provide that kind of emergency accommodation. In required to secure the funding and operation of local other parts of the country, such accommodation may public services. That cannot be deferred to tomorrow, be provided directly by the local authority itself. It is because people are falling ill and are in need today. crucial, therefore, that the theme that runs throughout all this is the ability of local authorities and local 4.32 pm resilience forums to deploy the money that is rightly David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) coming from this Government in the most flexible way (Con): I am sad to report to the House that, having possible to meet those local challenges. spent 22 years as a member of a local authority and Lessons could be learned on that, and I am cognisant having been elected as a Member of Parliament, I have of what Opposition Members have said about the challenges gone down in the index of public trust. When it comes associated with special educational needs and disabilities, to politicians and Members of Parliament, we are fortunate and the educational provision for people in that situation. that we still sit above lawyers and estate agents, but local It is clear that the more local flexibility there is, the government is very much trusted by the people of this easier it is for those communities to rise to the challenge country.That is whywhat the Minister and the Government of meeting the needs of those individuals. The more we have done, not only in their approach to the coronavirus seek to control that from the centre, the less satisfied outbreak but to the bigger strategic challenge of how many of our residents and voters will be with the we properly resource our local services for the coming outcomes they are seeing. Given the amazing range of years, is very important. provision that we see—I am cognisant of the remarks One of the long-standing frustrations of my time in about what was happening on youth services—we have local government is that Parliament—it has the opportunity fantastic voluntary organisations, which are providing to be incredibly strategic on behalf of our country and brilliant opportunities to young people. A decade or to think about what it wants to achieve for the nation in two ago, their lives would perhaps have been lived in a manyof these big-picture issues,such as housing, healthcare, youth club, but they are now being lived online, on a social care and education—has sometimes been drawn smartphone, where they talk to their friends in the into detailed debates about very specific issues, when we privacy of their bedrooms. So something different is would achieve so much more by allowing our locally required in the modern world, and that is another elected colleagues to demonstrate the leadership that example of where the leadership of local authorities, they are demonstrating in response to this crisis. They which know their communities, can deploy those resources, need to have those resources to accept from this House albeit more limited than they might have been historically, the challenge to deliver against those ambitions and in the most effective way. then to be left to get on with it. I wish to make a couple of specific observations Local resilience forums, which the Minister referred about particular strengths of the Government’s response. to on a number of occasions in his speech, are to me a The first relates to the announcements that have been very good example of exactly that kind of leadership. made to support nurseries and early years providers. I My experience as a councillor is in the London Borough should declare an interest: as a parent of two young of Hillingdon, although my constituency straddles two children, I am a user of my local council-run nursery. London local authorities. Going back to 2001, with There are many people, some employed in our public 9/11 we suddenly had to deal with thousands of stranded services and others who are going about their daily travellers who had no means of getting back to their business who are dependent on the existence of those homes. They needed to be found somewhere to stay, to services to ensure that they can live their lives. Such be fed and, in many cases, to be provided with medical services provide an opportunity for their children and care, communications and support. We saw local the children who may not come from prosperous organisations––not just the local authority, but schools backgrounds to gain the best possible start in life. So I and the military––rallying around, co-ordinated by the am pleased with the commitment that the Government local authority, to provide that crucial support. have given to ensure that, even if children are having to In the decade since, we have had to deal with significant step back from those places because of the immediate outbreaks of very serious illnesses, including severe prevailing situation, funding will still find its way, and acute respiratory syndrome, middle east respiratory so when this moment of emergency passes families can syndrome, H5N1 and swine flu, from which a young girl find that those services and the opportunities for the in my local area sadly passed away. The local authority youngest children are still there. That is an extremely then had to step in to manage those communications, in wise move, and the more we can send that message to order to reassure that community and make sure that proprietors and managers of nurseries and parents whose the support was in place so that a school or community children use them, the better. 1073 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1074 Public Services Public Services [David Simmonds] been clear that they will provide the financial resources that are central to the delivery of that, and I trust that The second thing I wish to refer to is the distribution all hon. Members will be providing a similar degree of of personal protective equipment. Because of my personal cross-party moral support to our colleagues in local connections with the national health service and from government that at this time of national challenge, we what I hear as a local councillor, I know that there is, need to work together and rise to it together. understandably, a high degree of anxiety among many of those staff who, unlike us in this Chamber, will be 4.43 pm sent out to people who are known to be suffering from Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): the coronavirus in order to provide direct, hands-on This is a very important debate at a very important personal care. They are worried about whether they will time, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for be able to access the quality and standard of equipment Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) for her that will be necessary to keep them safe.The announcement introduction in opening it. I also thank the Minister by the Minister that the distribution from national for the spirit in which he conducted the response. For stocks of those products to those frontline workers is Members across the House, a lot is going on at the going to be absolutely crucial once again in providing moment: tensions are heightened and people are fearful that degree of reassurance. in our communities, and we have all received an increasing That is not reassurance to those in the markets who volume of correspondence from people desperate to are wondering which moves to make when they are trading find out what happens next, what this means, and how their shares, and it is not reassurance to the international they can get help and support. It is telling therefore that community; it is reassurance to people who are absolutely so many Members have stayed for this debate just to put at the frontline of responding in a very direct and very on record our appreciation for the time given to this human way to this crisis. Again, the more we can get important issue. out the message the better that, as well as a sum that is In particular,I want to reference the Select Committee— so mind-bogglingly large—over £300 billion—that it is and my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West hard to grasp, this House is thinking about the basics of Norwood (Helen Hayes) in particular, previously a face masks and gloves and aprons that people need to distinguished member of it—for the work it has done on make sure that they are safe when they are doing an a number of reviews. On almost every issue and in every essential job, to bring this country together and to keep policy area, a consistent theme came out, which was our people safe. that the Government did not have a grasp of the scale of the impact of the decisions they were making on the Matt Western: On that point, does the hon. Gentleman communities affected by those decisions. Whether it agree that it would be useful to understand from was housing, planning, local government finance, adult Government just how they are ramping up the production social care, children’s services or homelessness—you name and supply of PPE, or ventilators or testing kits, so we it—every review had that strand going right through it. understand where the base was and where we might be It is absolutely right to point out that a decade of cuts in two weeks’ time? has taken its toll. Critically—and let us be honest, this issue has transcended different Governments—the absence David Simmonds: The hon. Gentleman makes a very of a proper assessment of the responsibilities placed on good point. I have been very much reassured by what I councils, which would then allow an informed assessment have heard from Ministers over a number of days about of the cost of delivering those responsibilities, is a the initiatives that are taking place to ensure that ventilators, glaring omission that we need to put right. It is staggering for example, and other equipment are available. One of that we are carrying out a fair funding review without the things I am particularly aware of because of my having reviewing the responsibilities. That cannot be a local government experience and knowledge of what real, balanced assessment of the costs of view of delivering local resilience forums do is that there are long-standing services. plans in place, backed up by stockpiles of various Of course, the debate naturally goes on to social care different types of equipment that may be required. It is workers and the genuine concern about the type of welcome that the Minister has been very clear today protection that they will get. This is a constant frustration. that, based on need and local requirements, the distribution We all love the NHS: it is part of who we are as a of that is going to begin, particularly for the volunteer nation. The NHS gives us help when we need it most, groups that many colleagues have referred to, with when we are at our most desperate; it brings new life people who are not familiar with some of the challenges into the world, and we all celebrate that; and it supports and risks that may be involved in treating patients with us when our loved ones are reaching the end of their serious illnesses; the knowledge that they can access time, and right in the middle of that experience, too. It good quality personal protective equipment supplied is a frustration for local government, though, that social through central Government and by their local authority, care is always placed in second or even third place is going to be absolutely crucial. behind the NHS. I just do not understand it: surely if In conclusion, I would simply like to make the following someone is giving care in a hospital environment, they point. We have seen examples up and down the land of have the same value as if they were giving care in local authorities consistently on a cross-party basis—I somebody’s home environment. The skill and compassion can think of examples from the response of Manchester that person needs, along with their dedication to public to the Arena bombing to those of local authorities service, are critical requirements. across the country to the refugee crisis in Europe—where Let us look at what it feels like to be an adult social our local government colleagues have demonstrated care worker. First, they are often not treated with very capably that they will rise to any challenge which respect by the person employing them. We have only this House sets. It is most welcome that Ministers have recently made progress on 15-minute visits, pay for travel 1075 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1076 Public Services Public Services time, not deducting uniform costs and all those types of This goes right to the heart of the “cradle to the issues, but even now many are paid the minimum wage grave” approach to public service. We cannot ignore the or just above it, and that is not even enough to live on. It impact on Sure Start centres, which were about investing starts at the beginning: we say that we value care as an in young people and giving them a taste of what opportunity industry because it is so important to our society, but was from the time when they were young and receiving the apprenticeship levy rate for care is the lowest possible that type of care. Taking it away has had a massive rate that can be paid for that skill and training provision, impact, and that is before we get on to primary school at £3,000 a year. A fencing installer who takes on an budgets and special educational needs. Young people apprentice can attract £12,000 a year, but that adult are just not receiving the tailored support that they need. social care worker on an apprenticeship attracts only However, today is also about thanking councils for £3,000 a year. There is a real question mark about how the work that they do. Regardless of party affiliation, I we value care as a career. Let us be honest: we have got want to place on record our thanks for the work that away with it for too long. As a society and as a nation, councillors do. They come into public service from their we are not paying people a fair wage for their responsibilities community because they really want to make a difference. and the importance of the job that they do. That just Hearing from some of the councillors and ex-councillors has to change. It will have a price tag, but we should who are now in this place about the passion and connection really value the work that they do. that they still feel, as I do, is very inspiring. We must also thank our council officers. Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): In the NHS and social care so many of these employees are After 10 years of austerity, councils have experienced taken for granted. Their skills in dealing with people— a very stressful period in trying to reconcile delivering patients, clients, or whatever we call them—is taken for balanced budgets to remain within the law with managing granted. The sector is to a large extent running on the the huge demand for adult social care, children’s services good will of its employees. and services for the homeless. People believe they pay council tax for the very neighbourhood services that are Jim McMahon: That is absolutely the case, but it is being taken away because councils cannot afford to also running on high levels of vacancies—there are make ends meet and provide those services. Councils 120,000 vacancies in adult social care. We are highly are placed in a horrible position. They are trying to vulnerable to staff in that industry becoming ill and keep their heads above water, and providing targeted going into self-isolation, which is why the question of support for people who really need it, but at the same the protection and support they are given becomes so time the public are holding them to account for the real important. It is absolutely about making sure that, first cuts that have been made locally. I do not think that that and foremost, they are considered in the same way as is a fair burden for central Government to place on hospital staff. Making sure that they get the proper local government. protective equipment that they need is critical, not just That brings me to council tax, which is a hugely to protect the patients who are being dealt with and the regressive tax. It has increased by a third, and what was receivers of adult social care, but for the individuals hidden in the Budget papers was, within the lifetime of who are placing themselves in a very risky situation, that Budget, an £8 billion increase in council tax income going into people’s homes without knowing who that for the Treasury. The Government are not coming to person has been in contact with, but doing it anyway the table and giving councils sufficient funds to deal because they believe in the care they are offering. with the demands of adult social care and children’s My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse services in particular. What they are saying is “It is the (Apsana Begum) made a really important point that survival of the fittest. If you can raise money through went beyond adult social care: the fabric of our society council tax or business rate retention, good luck, but if has changed as a result of the cuts. The 70% reduction you cannot, I am afraid that you can no longer rely on in youth services has almost certainly had an impact on central Government to step in and provide that partnership knife crime, on county lines, and on whether people feel solution.” they have a stake in the future. That is just not a fair way of doing things. How can it be right that today, in England—and we have an English Helen Hayes: My hon. Friend is making an excellent problem, because of the nature of how the country is speech. Does he agree that in this time of crisis central governed—adult social care and people’s ability to access Government support for local government is urgently the care that they need will soon be determined by the needed in respect of protection of our young people, house values in their area in 1991? How can it be right who may be even more vulnerable to violence as a that they will be based on historic industrial and commercial consequence of the lack of support systems, of activities land values and the business rate take in that area, when and of the people who are normally are responsible for the council has very little control over that base? With keeping them safe day-to-day? every revaluation, we see many regions being devalued, Jim McMahon: That is absolutely true, and it is also and London and the south-east increasing in value. true that many lives are lost, in terms of potential, That will be the model, the baseline, of public service through the criminalisation of young people who are funding in the future. effectively groomed into criminality by those in positions I mentioned the survival of the fittest, but the fittest of power or authority in the community who attract are not that fit. Local government still faces a £6 billion them in and entice them. We need to do far more to funding gap between now and 2025. There will still be make clear to young people across the country that people in the most affluent parts of the country who are there is a real alternative when it comes to leading a living in absolute destitution and not getting the support fulfilled life. Until then, we will never break the cycle of that they need because councils do not have the necessary young people being caught in crime unnecessarily. funds. 1077 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1078 Public Services Public Services Matt Western: My hon. Friend is making an excellent The Government need to be honest about the scale of speech. Having been a councillor myself, I can echo his the challenge that public services will face. I still believe comments. The difficulty for our local authorities is that at this moment, the public of this country do not that in the absence of the central Government grant, they understand the scale of what may face us all and are having to be more inventive and creative in respect particularly the impact that it will have on public services, of how they bring in revenue streams. What we have and not just for the workforce. We need to remember, found in the last couple of weeks and what is forecast is when we talk about public services and the community that certain revenue streams will be cut off, and councils over here, that public servants are the community. They will become more and more desperate to continue what live and work in the communities where we all do. If few services they can maintain. When the car parking people are off work because they have to self-isolate, are charges and the revenue streams for the local civic ill or have caring responsibilities, that will have a direct centre are not coming in, they will be under even more impact on the local government workforce. Many will pressure than they were before. Does he agree that the have partners working in the private sector, as well as local authorities need to understand urgently how the the public sector, and they may well face redundancies £500 million that the Chancellor mentioned will be and hours being cut in the family. They will go through distributed—and distributed fairly? the same financial stresses and strains, and there will be an impact on family life in the same way.The Government Jim McMahon: I think that is right. When councils need to be honest about what that means for day-to-day have to look elsewhere for funding, a risk naturally public services, and what the public can expect when we comes with that. The National Audit Office produced a really have to pull through to make sure that we can report on this and the Government share these concerns. keep the most urgent critical care going in this country. The Public Works Loan Board interest rate was doubled The Chancellor said that money will be made available, overnight by the Government, because they are concerned but we see a drip feed of those announcements in a way about the exposure that councils face in buying assets as that is not helpful for local government. The public investments. The NAO expressed the same concern. In a health settlement for next year was released only yesterday, two-year period, councils have been buying investment 14 days before the end of the financial year. Local portfolio assets of £6 billion. Why? Because they are councils were not even able to plan ahead about what desperate to see income from other places, but this is that meant. We cannot have that when it comes to a office accommodation and in retail, sometimes not even crisis of this scale. in the area that the council is responsible for. The I have always believed that our local government is Government response is to double the Public Works the first line of defence and the frontline in delivering Loan Board rate instead of addressing the fundamental public services. I have always believed that they are the reason why councils have to look elsewhere for funding, glue that holds our community together, that they are which feels illogical. We have to make sure that the base the leaders of place and that they can stir us to a better funding for councils is absolutely where it needs to be. future. We have seen that in the way that they bring We are coming to the greatest test of local government, communities together, invest in their local economies public service and society that any of us have seen in and deliver decent public services. What we will demand our lifetime. It will test us all. It will test the fabric of of those people in the coming weeks and months will society and test public services to breaking point, at a test us all, and it will test their resolve. It will not be time when they are built on extremely weak foundations. good enough just to say, “Thank you for all that you I am genuinely fearful for how we can continue this in a do,” without addressing the fact that, for 10 years, they sustained period. For a short time, they will make it have had to shoulder a disproportionate burden of work. They will roll their sleeves up and work together. austerity. Surely, now is the time to say to those people, They will create a partnership at a local level and find a “We will right the wrong of making you take on that way through it, but the Government know full well that burden of austerity. You were not the bankers, you did this is not a crisis that will last weeks or even months. A not create the financial crisis, and it was wrong to place sustained response will be required and the Government you in a position where you had to bear a disproportionate will have to make sure that they give local government burden.” We need to put that right today. the funding that they need to provide the critical response. We need not just money for the current crisis but We also need to manage public expectation. sustained funding so we can rebuild public services, Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): invest in our frontline and do more than just give those Is my hon. Friend aware that only today,local government people one word. By the time we get through this, they has received a directive from central Government to will not be just the frontline that we respect; they will be provide street sleepers—homeless people on the streets— seen for the heroes that they are. with self-contained accommodation? Great idea, but 5 pm where are they going to find it? The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): May Jim McMahon: It is also the case, as I hope most I first congratulate and thank hon. Members across the Members know, that solving homelessness is not just House for their valuable and important contributions about providing a roof. That is a critical part of it, but it to the debate? They have been largely co-operative and is about how the ecosystem of public service works to collaborative at a time of extraordinary emergency for make sure that the alcohol and drug addiction services, our country. mental health support and physical health support are I am sorry that I was not here at the beginning of the in place. We need to make sure that this is not just about debate to hear the opening remarks of the hon. Member giving someone a set of keys for a property—by the way, for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and the if that was possible, why did we not do it before this crisis? Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities —but making sure that the wider support is in place. and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member 1079 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1080 Public Services Public Services for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall); like the hon. Christopher Pincher: I am grateful to the hon. Lady Member for Oldham West and Royton (Jim McMahon), for that intervention. I will come on to talk about social I was in a Westminster Hall debate discussing the Greater care, but we will certainly be giving those who work in Manchester spatial framework. It is a great pleasure to social care the help they need to contend with this crisis. have the chance to close the debate. These measures, which follow on from the Budget I join my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State in and from the Chancellor’s announcement last night, reiterating the Government’s unwavering support for amount to over £330 billion in financial support, which, local authorities across the country in responding to the if I may say gently, is more than just drip-feeding into covid-19 emergency. Like other right hon. and hon. the system; it is a significant amount of money. The Members, I pay particular tribute to frontline staff and Government are prepared to do whatever it takes to other council officers for their tireless efforts in reassuring protect the economy, our NHS, our local services and residents, protecting the elderly and most vulnerable, our local authorities in weathering this storm. and helping keep the public safe. Let me assure the House that the Government will continue to work hand Helen Hayes: Will the Minister specifically address in hand with local partners, including councils and local the loss in core income that councils will experience if resilience forums, to assist in this vital work and ensure business rates revenue collapses? I know the Government that communities receive the support and help they have announced large-scale support, much of which need during this unprecedented and challenging time. will be channelled through local authorities to meet Hon. Members across the House described powerfully specific needs arising from the pandemic, but the threat the incredible work that their local communities and to our councils is bigger than that—it is to their core local public services are doing. Let me say, on behalf of budget. The Government have made councils reliant on the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Secretary business rates revenue in recent years, and it may now of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, drain away from them. how grateful we are for all the tireless work that people are already doing. I am particularly conscious of the Christopher Pincher: I am grateful to the hon. Lady vital contribution of local voluntary organisations, and for her further intervention. I know and understand the I pay particular tribute to them, as other Members did. point she is making, and we have already made funds I was struck by what my hon. Friend the Member for available to local authorities. The Chancellor, in his Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) had to say about Budget speech, made clear the support we want to give. the support the local volunteer organisation The Bus He made further announcements yesterday and, if she Shelter is providing. is prepared to bear with the Government a little longer, I suspect further announcements will be made as the Our responsibility in Government is to knit that work situation evolves. together into a national programme to ensure that all communities and all vulnerable people, wherever they As the Under-Secretary of State made clear in his may be, have access to the right support at the right opening statement, this funding is in addition to extending time, and we will do that. We will take every step SSP and a range of other measures by the Department necessary to support local communities, local authorities, for Work and Pensions. all public services and the myriad volunteers who are coming forward to help, as my hon. Friends the Members Jim McMahon: Local authority base budgets are based for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) on an assessment of council tax collection rates. If people and for Devizes (Danny Kruger) made clear. are made redundant or if they move on to statutory sick pay, they will clearly not be able to afford their rent, let Weknow councils need assurance from the Government alone their council tax. We expect councils to withhold that they will have the funding they need to play their any enforcement action, because that is the right, moral crucial role in the coronavirus response, especially in thing to do, but surely the Government will provide providing social care services to those in greatest need, compensation to protect the base income of those councils, as a number of Members on both sides of the House and surely they must now consider whether people have said. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has should have the protection of a council tax holiday, too. made clear, we will do whatever it takes—whatever it takes—to respond effectively. That includes making Christopher Pincher: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman sure public services, including vital council services, for his intervention. As the Chancellor made clear, we have the money they need to respond. The Chancellor will do whatever is necessary to stand behind our public announced last week that £5 billion has been made services, our local authorities and our volunteers to get available for the NHS, and more money has been made through this crisis. More announcements will be made available for other public services, such as the half a in this fast-moving situation, so I ask him to bear with million pounds made available to local authorities, with the Government in that regard. more to come if necessary. As hon. Members will also be aware, yesterday, my Weare urgently agreeing a funding package for councils, Department announced £3.2 million in initial emergency and we will make further announcements as soon as funding to help rough sleepers or those at risk of rough possible. sleeping to self-isolate to prevent the spread of this Barbara Keeley: The Under-Secretary of State for virus. The Under-Secretary of State, the homelessness Housing, Communities and Local Government said Minister, made that point in his opening remarks; I just earlier that the Government will make sure that, whatever wanted to reiterate it to ensure that colleagues who have social care and the NHS need, they will get it. Will the come into the Chamber more recently have heard it. Minister for Housing repeat that? That is an important A number of Members from across the House raised thing to say. It is not just the NHS that needs funding; the question of whether the Government have provided social care needs it, too. sufficient funding. The first point I would make—I have 1081 Local Government Responsibilities: 18 MARCH 2020 Local Government Responsibilities: 1082 Public Services Public Services [Christopher Pincher] find other suppliers or receive an emergency parachute drop of those masks. I should also say that, although made it already—is that this situation is changing every we would ordinarily expect those sorts of workers to have day. The Government are responding at pace to the things such as aprons and gloves, we will do whatever evolving challenges and working closely with the Local we can to ensure that whatever they need is available. Government Association and other local authority We are working with local authorities and care providers representatives to understand the effects of covid-19 on to make sure that those PPE pieces of kit are available. the delivery of statutory services, including social care. We have also asked GPs to look at the possibilities of The second point is to stress that the announcements offering digital appointments to provide advice and that we have made so far, including those from the guidance to patients and potentially to their families. I Chancellor last night, do not signal the end of the am confident that we are making every effort to provide Government’sresponse; they signal its beginning. Westand for those eventualities. ready to do more and we will go further as necessary. A number of Members raised the 2020-21 settlement. A number of colleagues raised the question of our I hope that we have demonstrated clearly to all Members social care workforce, including those who care for the that we are doing everything possible to give local elderly and vulnerable in care homes and in their own government the right support and the right resources to homes. Building on our existing strong local relationships, respond to this unprecedented crisis. Of course, local the NHS and local authorities are working with care authorities have already been put on a strong footing by providers to make sure that people receive the specialised the outcome of the settlement for next year.The settlement, care and support they need during this outbreak. Councils which I am pleased that the House supported just a few will map out all care and support plans to prioritise weeks ago, responds to the pressures that councils are people who are at the highest risk and will contact all facing by providing them with access to the largest registered providers in their local area to facilitate plans increase in core spending power since 2015. CSP will for mutual aid, and they will do this at pace. rise from £46.2 billion to £49.1 billion in 2020-21. That Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab) rose— is an estimated 4.4% real-terms increase—well above the rate of inflation. In 2020-21, the final settlement Christopher Pincher: I will give way one more time, makes £1.5 billion of new funding available for adult because I appreciate that the statement is to come. and children’ssocial care.That will support local authorities to meet rising demand and recognises the vital role that Jess Phillips: I thank the Minister. This morning, in a social care plays in supporting the most vulnerable in conference call with the leader of Birmingham City our society. Council, the biggest council in Europe, we discussed In conclusion, the role of local government in delivering this exact thing. Currently in social care and across care social care and other vital public services has never been homes in the city of Birmingham—I imagine it is the more important than it is now and will be in the days same everywhere—they simply do not have the personal and weeks ahead. Through our immediate actions in protective equipment to do the job that they need to be response to this crisis and the broader work this doing. I was asked to raise that directly with the Government Government are doing to help local authorities, I am and press them on it, because people are being put in confident that we are giving councils everything they harm’s way. need to deliver the services upon which we and our communities rely.Weremain steadfast in our commitment Christopher Pincher: I am grateful to the hon. Lady to do whatever it takes to help communities to beat for that point. Let me reassure her. We understand the covid-19, safe in the knowledge that, together, we will point about social care providers and PPE. I think rise to these challenges. Together we must, and we will, 7 million—I quote from memory—face masks are being succeed. made available to careworkers. At least 300 masks will be provided to care homes or care home providers to Question put and agreed to. ensure that this necessary and essential piece of kit is Resolved, available to them. If for whatever reason the normal That this House has considered the statutory and broader local supplier is unable to provide the kit, the national supply government responsibilities for public services, including social disruption response number is a way for providers to care. 1083 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1084

Educational Settings these young people, we are removing various duties. Ofsted has ceased all routine inspection of early years, 5.16 pm schools, colleges and children’s social care services. I can confirm that we will not go ahead with assessments The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson): or exams, and that we will not be publishing performance With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a tables for this academic year. We will work with the sector statement regarding changes to the operations of and Ofqual to ensure that children get the qualifications educational settings as a result of the coronavirus pandemic. that they need. We are facing increasingly difficult challenges, and I My Department is working closely with local authorities, would like to once again express my extraordinary representatives of early years, schools and headteachers, gratitude to staff in all our schools, colleges, nurseries regional school commissioners and bodies such as Ofsted and universities who have been doing so much. I know and Ofqual about how to deliver this change as effectively that the situation has become increasingly challenging. as possible. We will do whatever is necessary to support I said before that if the science and the advice changed, local authorities, schools and teachers through the weeks such that keeping schools open would no longer be in and months ahead. the best interests of children and teachers, we would I know that many universities and other higher education act. We are now at that stage. institutions are already taking necessary steps to keep The spike of the virus is increasing at a faster pace their staff and students safe and, where possible, keep than anticipated, and it is crucial that we continue to providing education. I am confident that vice-chancellors consider the right measures to arrest this increase and are making the right decisions and my Department relieve the pressure on the health system. The public continues to support them in doing so. health benefits of schools remaining open as normal This is a testing time for the whole nation, but by are shifting. It is also clear that schools are finding it asking schools and other settings to look after the increasingly difficult to continue as normal, as illness children of key workers and the most vulnerable, we and self-isolation impact on staffing levels and pupil will be directly saving people’s lives. Whether a parent attendance. I want to provide parents, students and or a teacher, I want people to know that their wellbeing staff with the certainty they need. and that of their children is the absolute priority for me After schools shut their gates on Friday afternoon, and my Department. We are completely committed to they will remain closed until further notice. That will be ensuring that every child receives the best education for all children except those of key workers and the possible, and we will be working with the BBC and children who are most vulnerable. The scientific advice others to provide resources for children to access at shows that these settings are safe for this small number home. of children to continue attending, but asking others to I am deeply grateful for the civic spirit and selfless stay away will help us to slow the spread of this virus. dedication that has been, and continues to be, shown by Examples of key workers include NHS staff, police and teachers and other school workers every single day. I am delivery drivers who need to be able to go to work. committed to giving my full support throughout every Vulnerable children include those who have a social stage of this crisis to those who are doing so much for worker and those with education, health and care plans. all of us. I know that our teachers and those working in Looking after these children will enable schools to education have the full support of the House and that support the country through this extremely challenging hon. Members will do what they can to support schools time. We are expecting early years providers, sixth forms and other providers in their own constituencies through and further education colleges to do the same. We are this period of change. I wish to thank them in advance working with Her Majesty’s Treasury on the financial for the work that they will do. I would also like to take support that will be required. I am also asking that the opportunity to thank the Opposition, particularly independent schools and boarding schools follow the the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), same approach. for their co-operation, advice and thoughts at this time. We will give schools the flexibility to provide meals or Our headteachers and teachers are central to the vouchers to children eligible for free school meals. Some country’s response to the current crisis. I am reassured schools are already doing this, and we will reimburse by their readiness to step up and to take the lead in the costs. As soon as possible, we will put in place a supporting families through this most incredibly difficult national voucher system for every child who is eligible time. All of those who work in our schools, colleges and for free school meals. I know that all of this will not be universities rightly take their place next to our NHS easy. I am asking nurseries, schools and colleges to be at staff and other key workers as central to our efforts as a the forefront of our national response to this crisis. country in battling the virus, and I thank them from the Given the unprecedented asks that we are making of bottom of my heart for all of their support and all they all those who are working in educational settings at this do. I commend the statement to the House. time, I recognise that we are asking so much of them. We will be asking them to provide for these settings to 5.25 pm be open to children of key workers and to vulnerable Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab): I thank children during the Easter holidays as well. the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement I recognise that what schools will be doing in these and for the discussions that we have had over recent circumstances will look very different from the normal days. As he knows, I have written to him with a number state of affairs, and will ensure that leaders have the of questions about his Department’s dealing with the flexibility that they need to face this challenge. In order fallout of covid-19. I hope he will be able to provide to allow schools and other settings to focus on this new some of the answers now, but I also look forward to his operational model and the support they can give to detailed response as soon as possible. 1085 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1086

[Angela Rayner] The crisis will test us all. Our communities and public services have all stepped up, and I am so proud of them. I know that these are extraordinary times, and that Schools are already working to assist parents and pupils parents and carers are worried. Let me put on record in putting systems in place. The Opposition place the our thanks to and support for all those working in our greatest priority on protecting the most vulnerable. I education and children’s services through this crisis. urge the Government to do the same. They, along with parents and learners of all ages, now seek both reassurance and guidance from Government. Gavin Williamson: The hon. Lady makes the same The steps that have finally been taken today are welcome, point that every single Member on this side of the but can the Secretary of State tell us how the reduced House would make. We are all acting to try to protect service provided in schools will work? In particular, those who are most vulnerable. She raised a number of may I press him on free school meals. He says that he issues, including free school meals. To ensure that no will give schools flexibility, but with millions of children child is in a situation where they will not receive free in poverty, and many families now facing even worse, school meals, we will give schools the authority and the can he guarantee that free school meals will be made ability to issue vouchers to every child immediately for available to all those eligible, and will he take steps to next week. I would like to progress to a stage where, in a extend that to breakfasts and over the school holidays? large number of schools around the country, there is Children with disabilities and underlying health also the ability to provide meals there, but that will conditions are at particular risk. Can the Secretary of depend on staffing in each school. State tell us what steps he is taking to support them and On the serious disability guidance, that will be coming their parents and ensure that the guidance is easily forward. We recognise the importance of it and we are found? Where is the guidance available for parents who working with Public Health England to get that published. have underlying health conditions? Can they take their On guidance for children who are absent, that will be children out of school if they are themselves in isolation included in the Bill that we will bring forward to the or at risk, and will the new guidance be issued on fines House, which will give clarity and assurance to parents for parents who withdraw their children from school? and schools as to what the situation is. What advice and support is he offering to special schools The hon. Lady raised an important point about serving those with particularly serious physical conditions, exams, the importance of exams and, most importantly, which are often residential? ensuring that every child gets the recognition that they The same is true for the education workforce. Will the need for the work that they have put in towards their Secretary of State make it clear to all employers that GCSEs, A-levels or other applied general qualifications. workers in the vulnerable categories identified by the We will make sure that every child gets the proper Government must not now be placed under pressure to recognition that they deserve. We will obviously update be in work and should be sent home? Staff are also the House on that. We are working closely with Ofqual worried about being paid. What reassurances can he on a detailed set of measures that make sure that no give, especially to those sadly now on casual contracts child is unfairly penalised. or insecure terms, and what is his plan for supply The hon. Lady also touched on the point of how we teachers? ensure that early years providers are properly supported. There is widespread concern about the exams. Clarity We have already announced that there will be support is required about pupils who were due to sit their SATS, through business rates. We have also written to all those GCSEs or A-levels and will now not do so. Can the providers that the funding that we have been giving to Secretary of State tell us when decisions will be made them will be maintained through this period, despite and how they will be communicated? the fact that their operations will obviously be running The Secretary of State mentioned that he expects quite differently from how they have in the past. childcare providers to close. Many are already close to I should highlight the point about children who are collapse. Can he confirm what support is available and most vulnerable. The reason we know that it is incredibly whether emergency business rate relief will apply? important to keep educational settings open, not just for key workers but for those most vulnerable children, The Secretary of State also said that he will support is that those are the children every hon. Member has the vice-chancellors in their decision making in higher greatest concerns about. Often, their school is the safest education, but is it not now time for him to avoid all place for them. That is why we have taken the action doubt by issuing clear guidance, protecting staff and that we have to make sure that they are included in the students alike? Can he share the evidence and modelling support alongside key workers. We recognise that there behind his decision not to do so? will be a lot of work to do with local authorities and Finally, let me turn to an area that the Secretary of social services to make sure that there is continued State did not mention, but that is vital to the most support for every one of those children in this difficult vulnerable—children’s social work and youth services. and challenging time. Children’s services are already suffering from years of cuts. They will now face staff shortages at the time when Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I thank my there will be a greater need for them than ever before. right hon. Friend for the breadth of the statement The poorest and most vulnerable paid the highest price today. Necessarily, there is still a lot of detail to be for austerity. We cannot allow them to pay the highest worked out, not least on qualifications. For me, in price for the latest crisis too. Will he commit to return to talking to headteachers today, it has been humbling—not the House next week with a statement on that area of surprising, but humbling—to see the depth of their his responsibilities and, I hope, with new resources to commitment to supporting their family and the whole support those on the frontline? of our society through this crisis. May I ask my right 1087 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1088 hon. Friend for flexibility, where necessary, to add to system might be considered as well. Has he discussed the designations of vulnerable children, as schools know these potential flexibilities with the Scottish Government their families best, and to add to the designations of key to ensure that we can all approach this situation as workers, where appropriate? May I also ask for schools fairly as possible? to work together, where appropriate, in pairs or in Finally, what discussions have been had with the clusters, particularly in areas where there are small qualifications authorities across the UK, and with university, schools? college and employers organisations about how pupils due to sit exams are not disadvantaged by these closures? Gavin Williamson: We will very much be looking at The closures are going to cover the exam period. Have working with schools to ensure that they are best able to the UK Government had any discussions with the likes operate together and deliver those services. The issue of of Universities UK about alternative ways of scoring to flexibility is absolutely at the core of this. While we are exams? It goes without saying that these decisions cannot looking at what we are having to deal with today, we be siloed; there must be cross-Government and cross-sector equally have to recognise that some of the challenges co-operation. I hope the Secretary of State will agree to and demands on the system are going to be substantially that approach, and that dialogue and discussions with greater in the weeks ahead than they currently are, and the devolved authorities will continue. we will need constantly to change our response. We will certainly work with headteachers and all of our Gavin Williamson: I am very grateful to the Deputy organisations to make sure that we get this right. On key First Minister in Scotland for the discussions we have workers, the Cabinet Office will be giving a more detailed had and the work we have already started undertaking response about who those key workers are. together, recognising that the issues and co-ordinating a response across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): I thank the Ireland are incredibly important. Education Secretary for advance sight of his statement. I declare an interest in that my wife is a primary school The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of the private teacher in Scotland, albeit on maternity leave. I wish to nursery sector. We have established a working group put on record our thanks to all staff in the education with that sector and we have already been addressing sector for all they have done and will continue to do key issues in making sure that it has confidence in the during this crisis to continue to provide the best service finance it is expecting to receive from Government—this they can in the most challenging of circumstances. will continue. Pupils, parents and staff are worried, and that is On free school meals, the hon. Gentleman raises the understandable. issue of direct payments from the Department for Work Education is devolved, but many of the decisions and Pensions. That is one of the things we are actively made here at Westminster in these critical areas have a considering. We can do this either through that method knock-on impact on the devolved nations. Tomorrow, or other methods that can be used to do it, but we the Scottish Education Secretary, John Swinney, will be would do it in consultation with the Scottish Government. making a detailed statement to Holyrood, following on On the issue of universities, we have a completely integrated from the announcement made by the First Minister, system, where so many students from all four nations of Nicola Sturgeon, regarding school closures. the UK do not pause for a moment when they are thinking about where they may wish to go to university. There are three key areas on which I wish to question We have had discussions with Universities UK about the Secretary of State. First, to build on what he said how best to deal with this. Part of the answers he and about ensuring that children of frontline public service many others will be seeking we will not be able to give workers and those from key industries have access to until we have a greater and clearer idea as to how this childcare during these school closures, we need these virus is going to pan out and how the actions we are workers at their work where possible—relying on family taking are going to curtail it. But we are already in is not an option in these times—and now education extensive discussions and looking at various ways of staff themselves are actually in areas of critical importance. making sure that every child has the best opportunity Has there been discussion with the private nursery of going on to the university of their choice. sector about what educational closures mean for them? We know Government-supported hours will continue Mr Speaker: May I just advise the House that I expect to be paid, but for many that will simply not cover the to run this statement until about 6.45 pm? shortfall and will not be sustainable. Have the Government considered how the private nursery sector might be Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): called on to provide the emergency childcare support Several heads have contacted me to say that they wanted that will be needed? Nicola Sturgeon alluded to this in their schools to remain open at all costs, so this will be a her statement. Will the UK Government follow suit? great upheaval for them, but I respect that schools are Secondly, there are millions of families across the being kept open for certain people. What is crucial is UK who rely on free school meals for their children. where the definition of “key workers” comes in, so may For some, it will be the only guaranteed meal they have I stress that giving some discretion to heads is essential, in the day. The policy is devolved—it is more advanced as is whether school premises can remain open for in Scotland—but what discussions has the Secretary of outside groups that use their facilities? Inevitably,informal State had with some of his Cabinet colleagues, such as childcare groups and arrangements will spring up and the Work and Pensions Secretary, to ensure that families there are safeguarding considerations in that regard. So who rely on school meals do not incur any further will the Department make sure guidance is given so that hardship because schools are closed? The Secretary of workers who continue to go to work and are able to State’s suggestion of a voucher scheme was a bit vague, have childcare arrangements are doing it in the safest and perhaps cash payments via the social security or tax way for them and for their children? 1089 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1090

Gavin Williamson: I can absolutely give my hon. support of the revenue that they would receive from the Friend that reassurance, and I very much take on board Government for the cohorts of children they would the point he makes about the need for flexibility for have. That will continue, which is a key element that schools to be able to demonstrate some discretion. they need to have in order to continue to pay staff.

Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Parents may not Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): May I be key workers but they will be key workers in their press the Secretary of State for clear guidance on the homes, because they are the ones who are paying the private nursery sector and whether the statement includes mortgage, the rent and the bills. So if parents cannot go them? Can he also give clearer guidance to non-local out to work because their children cannot go to school, authority youth groups and clubs, which presumably who will pay their salaries? know that they cannot meet, but will require clear instructions from the Government so that they are covered Gavin Williamson: In this statement, we are dealing in all circumstances, including those relevant for insurance with making sure that we have the provision we need for purposes? those key workers in order to sustain our NHS, but I very much accept that many wider issues are raised as a Gavin Williamson: It will not be suitable for them to result of this. That is why we have had some reluctance meet, but there is an important aspect for the whole to be in a position of closing schools rapidly, but when voluntary sector as to how it can look at playing an the evidence and the science point out the fact that we important role, contributing in many different ways to need to make changes, it is right that we do so. this national endeavour to deal with the crisis facing our whole nation. There will probably be a substantive role Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): The measures for many such organisations to look at playing within that my right hon. Friend has announced are profound, some school settings as, of course, those organisations but it would appear that, in the circumstances, they are will have individuals who are DBS-checked. now a necessary step to take. Does the definition of “vulnerable children” include children in need, of whom Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): there are about 400,000, and children on a child protection One of the categories who will have most difficulty with plan, of whom there are about 50,000? If it does, that this decision are the parents of children at special needs will significantly increase the number of children whom schools. As the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne we hope will still be able to go to school. (Angela Rayner) pointed out, some of them are residential. Is any particular provision being made to support those Gavin Williamson: This is for all those children with a parents? social worker, so those are the categories that will be covered. Gavin Williamson: We recognise that a small number of children will be in a special school that has a residential Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): Will the Secretary of setting. In a number of those cases, it will be important State give further clarification on those taking A-levels and essential for that setting to remain open, and we and going on to university? Will the discussions with will be looking at those individually to see how best we UCAS bear in mind the most disadvantaged children, support them and, critically, how we ensure that they to ensure that no one will lose out and that not just have the right type of staffing, as they will suffer the mock A-level results but wider considerations are taken effects of the spread of this virus, as will other educational into account? Will these results and answers come soon, establishments. because these children will be very worried about their future? Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab): With regards to the voucher system that the Secretary of State pointed Gavin Williamson: The hon. Lady raises important out, we are about to see an explosion in the number of points. Yes, we will be doing that. We will also be people who are eligible for free school meals because of looking to ensure that those who do not feel that the the downturn in the economy. Will he guarantee today result is truly reflective of their work have a proper and that the voucher system will not just be for those who substantive appeal mechanism. are eligible as of last week, but for those who would be eligible in the future? It has always been problematic to Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) get people on the right benefits to claim free school (Con): The private nursery sector plays a crucial role in meals. enabling parents, but in particular mothers, to go back to work. They are absolutely crying out for clarity and Gavin Williamson: Yes, we can. support from the Government, and they feel very strongly, in the words of my constituent Lou Simmons, that they Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): This Easter have seen pubs and retail get a great deal more assistance holiday was, for good students, their opportunity to than they have. Will my right hon. Friend provide revise, so we do not have a great deal of time to give clarity about whether they are entitled to the business proper guidance for A-level and GCSE students. How rates holiday and whether he will consider extending long should they expect it to be before they know exactly more support to that sector so that it can continue to what is going to happen? provide crucial support at a really desperate time? Gavin Williamson: Wewill be giving very clear guidance Gavin Williamson: My right hon. Friend raises an for all schools and all students. There will not be exams important point. Nurseries are eligible for business taking place this year, and we will be making sure, for rates relief and, even more importantly, for continued every child due to be sitting GCSEs, A-levels or any 1091 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1092 other form of qualifications and expecting results in Milestone School just outside my constituency, and it August, that the work they have done is properly reflected will be very difficult for those children’s parents to look in those GCSEs and A-levels. after them. Any clarification he could give on schools that wish to remain open would be helpful. Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): Will the Secretary Secondly, in terms of apprenticeships, many people of State say a bit more about the advice being given to leaving school with GCSEs in maths and English, which universities? He will also know that international students are essential for apprenticeships, will want to know are hugely important in many places. Will he press UK whether they will still be eligible. What will happen to Visas and Immigration to be flexible in the way they apprentices who are studying at further education colleges apply the tier 4 visa rules? We do not want students but will no longer be able to do so? Will they lose their being told that they are being penalised because they apprenticeships? switch to online learning. Gavin Williamson: No one will be in a position where Gavin Williamson: That issue was raised with me we take away the work that they have been doing in yesterday by Universities UK. We are in contact with their apprenticeships. We have already made it clear to the Home Office to take up the point that the hon. the college sector and the independent training providers Gentleman raises. We must also recognise that we have who deliver so many apprenticeships that funding for a duty and an obligation towards the many international apprenticeships is continuing. In terms of special schools, students who are here in the United Kingdom and not all children who have an EHC plan will be designated as able to return home. Wemust ensure that accommodation vulnerable children. in halls of residence continues to remain available for them until they are in a position to return to their loved Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Can ones. the Secretary of State advise us on the discussions he has had with the Education Minister in Northern Ireland? Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): All I understand that the Department of Education will our constituents will be grateful to my right hon. Friend shortly make an announcement about schools in Northern for his measured and practical statement, and in particular Ireland. Will he assure us that those discussions will his words of support and gratitude for all those who continue if there is any review of this decision? work in our schools and colleges. He said that more information will be available from the Cabinet Office in Gavin Williamson: Over the last week and more, I respect of key workers and vulnerable children. Can he have been privileged to have a number of discussions say a bit more about those two specific groups and how with the Education Minister and the First Minister of we, as a society, will exercise our duty of care to them? Northern Ireland. We have done everything we can to co-ordinate our approach to the common challenge of defeating this virus. There will continue to be close Gavin Williamson: I feel as if I could be in danger of dialogue between the Assembly and the Administration starting to draw up a list at some stage of who those key in Northern Ireland and my Department. workers are. That will be done by the Cabinet Office and made available from tomorrow, to give those people Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): I am grateful for the clarity and ensure that school leaders have a clear Secretary of State’s commitment to children in care and understanding of who those key worker groups are. on the fringes of care. Teachers will be concerned about some children who do not have a social worker or an Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Many EHC plan. Can those teachers be involved in the decision- of my constituents live in incredibly overcrowded making process? Could he press for teachers and social households. Grandparents will find themselves looking workers to be included as key workers? after children from Friday onwards, while parents who are not key workers will be going to work. Social distancing Gavin Williamson: I assure my hon. Friend that teachers and self-isolation is practically impossible in those situations. and social workers will be included in the designation of What guidance and advice can the Secretary of State key workers. I note that a number of Members have give in that regard? raised the issue of there being an element of flexibility, so that teachers and school leaders are able to show an Gavin Williamson: Wevery much recognise the challenges element of discretion. We must not forget that the that many families will face. We have had to prioritise in reason why we are taking this action is to limit the taking every action possible to stem this virus. That is spread of the virus. The scientific and medical advice is why we have taken this action, with a deeply heavy that taking this action and reducing the number of heart. Key workers’ children and vulnerable children children in education settings will have an impact in account for approximately 10% of the school-age terms of reducing the spread of the virus. Nevertheless, population, and we will be looking at provision for I have heard what the House has said about looking into them. We have to look at what action can be taken to providing an element of flexibility, and I will certainly stem this virus, and the scientific advice is that this is the take that away. best step to be taking. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): As my Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I appreciate that hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela this is an incredibly difficult announcement for the Rayner) pointed out, millions of children in our country Secretary of State, and it almost certainly raises more live in poverty, which is why I particularly welcome the questions than it answers. On the detail, I want to flag Secretary of State’s announcement about the voucher up two things. First, in terms of special educational system. However, in his responses hitherto there has needs schools, there is an outstanding SEN school called been a palpable lack of detail about the voucher system. 1093 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1094

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi] Minister was asked at Prime Minister’s questions by my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead How will they be redeemed? Where will they be redeemed? (Mrs May). Does he have any expectation that schools I fear that without attention to detail, the voucher will open, for the population as a whole, at any time system will become merely worthless pieces of paper. before the end of this year?

Gavin Williamson: That certainly will not be the case. Gavin Williamson: Obviously, my greatest hope is that Members on the Government Benches recognise and we could get schools opened very rapidly, but I am completely understand the importance of ensuring that going to be guided by the best scientific and medical every child who is eligible for free school meals is able to advice in terms of when we do that. My right hon. Friend receive them and able to get food. We recognise that we also referred to the fact that the term key workers should may be dealing with this situation not just for a few not just be seen to refer only to NHS professionals—that it weeks but for quite a long and sustained period of time, is much broader. That is very clearly understood by the and we would want to move to a more conventional Cabinet Office, and what we do will reflect that fact. system in order to be able to get money to families in the best possible way. Another aspect is that the reason Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) why we came up with the process of free school meals is (Lab): The Secretary of State has called on nurseries that we recognise that for a child to be able to go to a and early years providers to be part of a national effort school and receive a meal is an incredibly powerful to combat this. When will the Government set out what thing to be able to offer. Weare going to look into whether steps they will take to provide additional financial support there is a way to deliver that much more broadly in so to nurseries, going beyond the funding he set out for the many more schools, but that will be dependent on the continuation of funded places? My worry is that if we number of schools we are able to have open and available. do not provide additional support very quickly, staff will be laid off and some of these nurseries might never Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) reopen. (Con): The Secretary of State has answered two questions Gavin Williamson: As I alluded to earlier, we have from colleagues on very special schools. I have two such already guaranteed the Government funding regardless schools in Bridgwater: Penrose and Elmwood. These of what their pupil numbers are in terms of continued children have some of the most difficult challenges in funding for all those nursery settings. We have already society, and I do not yet understand what the Secretary done it. of State is going to do, if the schools are shut down, to make sure that those children are cared for through the Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Will county council system and the social work system. By my right hon. Friend join me in thanking all the staff and large, their parents are working. We need clarification and everyone involved, including parents, for the effort —these children cannot be left without major help. they have made so far and for the common-sense and sensible approach that they have taken to keeping schools Gavin Williamson: I am sure that the schools to which open? We need to understand that we are doing this as a my hon. Friend refers will have children who will have national effort and everyone has to play their part to an education, health and care plan, which is the reason keep the NHS at a capacity at which it can cope with why they attend that school, so they would be included this virus, and this change is part of that effort. My one in the category of vulnerable. concern in my area, which is rural, is whether the school transport provision will still be in place for those children Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) who still need to attend their schools because they are (Lab): Many parents will think that this is the right eligible. thing to do for their kids and for us to stop the virus spreading, but they will also be really worried that they Gavin Williamson: We are certainly very much hoping just cannot afford to stop work to look after them and that the school transport system will be there, although cannot get the grandparents to step in. Given that the that is dependent on other strains within the transport Secretary of State said this situation could last for some network. My hon. Friend highlights the importance of time, will he look at urgent financial support for parents— saying an enormous thank you to those many public not just of those on free school meals, but all parents in servants who have been doing so much to support these circumstances—or at working with local councils parents and families and, most importantly, to support on free childcare options in much smaller or one-to-one children. We are incredibly indebted to them, but we settings, which could help? recognise that we will still be asking an awful lot more of them in the future. Gavin Williamson: That is certainly something we have been discussing with the Treasury and something Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): My that we will be highlighting as part of a wider range of mind is boggling at the logistical challenge that is about economic issues that the Chancellor recognises he needs to face schools and I add my voice to those thanking to address. them in advance for what they are about to do. This will raise more questions than anything else. Last week, the Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): On the helpline set up by the Department for Education was issue of key workers, I think it is going to be a little overwhelmed with questions to such an extent that it more complex than the Secretary of State says. For stopped working. If schools have questions, where should example, what about those who work in our food they go? distribution sector? However, I wish to ask about what On the point about EHCPs, the Secretary of State he said about schools being closed until further notice— will know that it can take up to two years to get them. I am thinking back to the question that the Prime Nine out of 10 that go to the ombudsman are found in 1095 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1096 favour of the parents. Is it not time just to grant all for local and national Government to work together. EHCPs in the system so that all children, even if they On supply teachers, there will be exceptional demand are on the margins of being vulnerable, get the help that for the services of all teachers in the system—those on they need? regular contracts and supply teachers.

Gavin Williamson: The hon. Lady mentions the helpline, Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): We will pay and we have put extra resource on to that and we have teachers when their schools are closed, because the made sure that it is open at weekends. We will also be closure is not their fault and we will need them again, writing directly to schools with a clear set of guidance but that applies to many other employees across the on how to proceed. Our regional school commissioners economy.That could be addressed very straightforwardly are working closely with local education authorities to if the Government brought forward urgently a package provide all the information needed going forward. to support employees’ wages right across the economy. Will the Secretary of State, when he finishes this statement, Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I appreciate talk to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to ask that the Secretary of State is trying to bring clarity. My them to turn their attention, within the next few hours, question is on GCSEs. He has clearly said that they are to making a statement on support for employees generally not going to happen, and that there will be some kind of across the economy? system for awarding them. When he comes back and tells us how that system will work, the year 11 students will Gavin Williamson: I am more than happy to pass on presumably then know exactly what their grades are. In such representations. fact, they might know their grades in the next few weeks. Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): No one doubts This comes at an emotional cost to year 11 students the scale of the challenge facing the Secretary of State. who have been revising hard, studying hard and preparing Frankly, his job would have been made much easier had themselves for the biggest educational challenge of their the Chancellor come forward last night with provisions lives so far. What support will be put in place to help for income protection for people right across the economy. with the emotional challenge that those year 11 students I hope the Secretary of State takes that message back. are going through? However, his statement contains considerable holes too. What arrangements will be put in place for people Gavin Williamson: Like everyone else, I recognise that sitting vocational assessments and those teaching them? this is not what one would call an ideal situation. I Will he say more about what is going on in further certainly did not want to be the Education Secretary education? who cancelled all exams. We realise we have to have a fair system in order properly to reflect the work that all On vulnerable children, there are children in my pupils have put into their GCSEs, A-levels and the constituency living in temporary bed-and-breakfast other qualifications they have been entered into. We accommodation, for whom school is an escape from the recognise that this comes at considerable emotional awful conditions at home, who are not subject to EHCPs cost, as they have been working together. We are in and do not have social workers. As well as coming exceptional circumstances. We are not in a position in forward with more detailed answers about key workers, which we are able to provide the usual settings and will the Secretary of State set out in detail what we support that one might expect in a school, but we are mean by vulnerable children? If we are asking people to looking at different ways in which we can support prepare and not to panic, the Government need to be young people through what will be a difficult and prepared; otherwise, statements like this one will lead challenging time as they face up to the reality of the fact to panic. that the school or college that they are incredibly fond Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman refers to his of and which has been part of their life for such a long concerns about some of those children. I very much time will not be part of their everyday life. imagine that they would be included in those children who are most vulnerable. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The Secretary of State said councils will play a key part in what he has Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): I appreciate that children announced. Yesterday,the Chancellor announced a whole will not be sitting any exams this year, but is the range of new measures for the economy.Durham County expectation that they will continue to receive an education? Council spent all day trying to get guidance on that, Is there anything we can do to support schools to deliver only to be told that it will not be available until Friday. remote teaching, and to support parents who want to When will guidance on what the Secretary of State has help with home learning? announced be given to councils? Will he also answer the question from the shadow Secretary of State about Gavin Williamson: As my hon. Friend will be aware, supply teachers? Those people do not have permanent schools have been doing a lot to provide children with contracts. They are going to find they have no income. work and enable them to continue to study if the school The Secretary of State spoke warm words about teachers; closes. We are working closely with the BBC, and we are these are teachers too, and they need support. looking at putting more resources online in order to support children to continue to learn even if they are Gavin Williamson: We will certainly write to all local not in an education setting. authorities and all schools with guidance, and that will happen today. Before I came to the House, I spoke to Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): The the director of children’s services who represents the Secretary of State spoke about teachers getting paid, Association of Directors of Children’s Services about but many others work in schools, including lunchtime what we are doing. They were very clear about the need supervisors, caretakers and cleaners, many of whom are 1097 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1098

[Alex Sobel] sets in they will feel disappointed as well. However, I understand why this process is necessary. Will the contract staff. Will all school staff carry on getting paid, appeal process that is being envisaged be completed by or will only teachers and those on full-time guaranteed the time options are chosen for next year? contracts be paid? Gavin Williamson: There is a standard appeal process Gavin Williamson: It will probably not surprise the on exam grades, and that has always been structured to hon. Gentleman that we will continue to fully fund ensure that it is completed before university begins. We schools, and that those people who are working in schools are looking at putting in place additional measures, will continue to get paid. such as enabling a child rapidly to take a fresh set of tests or exams, but we have to be conscious of the fact Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): How that we do not know how the virus will manifest itself will large numbers of young people released from school and in what sort of timescales we will see peak and be persuaded to stay at home and avoid social contact? reduction. I am not in a position to be able to say on what dates that will happen and the consequences that Gavin Williamson: My right hon. Friend poses a the virus may have in additional knock-on effects for challenge, and as the father of two teenage daughters I other institutions and academic years. am acutely aware of youngsters’ desire to socialise, but what we are facing in this country is not normal. It is Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): As a parent of two not something any of us have seen in our childhood, primary-age children, I know that the conversation and it is not a situation any of us would like to see or be about how best to provide routine and educational in, and we need to accept that everyone has to exhibit a support at home has been going on in school communities different set of behaviours to be able to stem this virus. for quite some time. As my right hon. Friend says, That comes with challenges, but we are only taking the schools are working very hard to rush out resources steps we are taking because we believe they will go that can be used at home. In my previous role on the towards ensuring that this virus does not spread as widely Education Committee I met many education technology as it could. companies that have excellent apps and resources online. What can the Department do to help, promote and Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): We have 48 hours before highlight some of those existing resources to parents? schools close, and we have no clear list of who is going to be able to send their children to school next week or Gavin Williamson: We already have an edtech strategy after the Easter holidays. We have known for several for promoting this, but we will see a much more rapid weeks that we were going to reach this stage, so can the and speedy evolution of some of these learning aids Secretary of State say what preparations he has made and resources, and we must look at how best we can with local education authorities and schools to help harness new technology to ensure that all children are in draw up these lists and set out a plan to keep schools a position to be able to get the very best out of education, open? I think this is the right move, but I do not think even in the coming weeks. the preparations have been done. Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman will probably say more about special schools like Gibside in my have heard my response earlier: the list of key workers constituency that have children with very special needs? will be published tomorrow. That will be available for Is he saying that schools like Gibside will remain open? schools, and we are very conscious that we need to get If so, what support can be given to the staff? that information to all schools as quickly as possible. Gavin Williamson: We have to recognise that schools Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con): As chairman such as Gibside will be facing considerable pressures in of the all-party group, I bring the positive message from terms of staffing and the spread of the virus, but also in the independent education sector that it is part of terms of pupils who may be unwell. Many children who communities—it wants to help,and it wants the Department attend special schools such as Gibside will be on an to know that. There is also a concern: will boarding EHCP, which obviously puts them in the category of schools be allowed or be expected to continue caring for vulnerable children for whom we are looking to make any remaining boarders, especially international ones, sure there is continued provision. who have not gone home or cannot do so? Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): This Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend highlights an has been a sobering statement, and I want to put on issue that is quite common in the university sector for record how much I appreciate the tone used by the international students. As I have said with international Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Ashton-under- students in university settings, we must recognise our Lyne (Angela Rayner). obligations to those young people, and we recognise My question is on behalf of university students. that in boarding schools as well. What will they pay for their tuition fees?

Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab):Like Gavin Williamson: There are currently no plans to many households around the country, ours was facing change the tuition fees. Obviously,as has been highlighted, exams this year—both GCSEs and A-levels—and there universities will continue teaching online. We will be is certainly some disappointment that my children will working very closely with Universities UK to ensure not be facing those challenges this year. They may be students have their grades in a timely manner to ensure slightly happier at the moment, but I think once reality they are able to move on to the next stage of their lives. 1099 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1100

Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): All of these extraordinary measures have the aim of Our schools are not only amazing centres of learning preserving life, and to do that we need to maximise but are centres of support for children living in poverty, capacity in our NHS. What will be the implications of including 48% of children in Newcastle upon Tyne these measure for our staff in the NHS? Central. On free school meals, is the Secretary of State, like Newcastle City Council, looking at ensuring the Gavin Williamson: I thank my hon. Friend for raising continued delivery of hot meals to children’s homes? He this issue with me a few days ago.Obviously,as constituency talks of encouraging online learning, but there is a neighbours, we were both acutely aware that this is digital divide in this country and the libraries that help something that we needed to tackle. We have taken to close that divide are themselves closing. Will he these measures to reduce the chance and the spread of guarantee access to broadband for all children whose infection. The reason why we have taken the difficult schools are shut? decision to make educational settings available for key workers is to ensure that brilliant hospitals such as New Gavin Williamson: We will certainly be looking at Cross in Wolverhampton can continue to function and working with local authorities such as Newcastle City to offer the support and the vital healthcare that is Council on making sure we have the broadest provision needed not just for her constituents, but for my mine in of meals for children and on how best that is delivered. South Staffordshire. As I touched on in the statement, we will look at how we can grow and expand that not just in Newcastle but Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ in many other areas. Co-op): It would be very helpful if the Secretary of The hon. Lady highlights an important point about State could give a clear timetable as to when he will the digital divide in this country, and we will be looking make an announcement about A-levels in particular, at working with schools to ensure that pupils who do but also GCSEs, because pupils will be worrying. I not have access to digital resources can have other wanted to follow up on the questions from my hon. resources that enable them to learn when schools are Friends the Members for Poplar and Limehouse (Apsana closed. Begum) and for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) about children who are living in severely overcrowded conditions James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con): Until now, in my constituency. There are those, for example, in the expert advice has been that a consequence of closing homeless hostels, where at least we can identify the schools is that children may have to stay with their situation they are in by their address, but more particularly grandparents, who are the most vulnerable people. What there are those in overcrowded flats where there is one is now the advice for parents? Should they take advantage family in the living room and one in the bedroom and of grandparents? If not, may I urge that the support very often parents who have no recourse to public package being considered by the Chancellor addresses funds. There will be a very big problem for those this issue? vulnerable children, many of whom are not looked after and have no social worker. I am sure—I hope—that his Gavin Williamson: We ask all parents to look at the Department has considered this, and will he please give advice given by Public Health England. Obviously, there us some information now about what he will do about it are many grandparents who are very young and healthy, with colleagues across Government? If he cannot do so but we need parents to consider the individual circumstances now, can he tell us when he will brief those of us who of their family to make the best assessment. We need to have this endemic problem in our constituencies? protect those who are most vulnerable and, of course, the most vulnerable are those over the age of 70 and those with underlying health conditions. Gavin Williamson: Certainly. The reason why we have announced the response that we have is to ensure that it Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): I am grateful to covers a broad range of children, including not just the Secretary of State for his statement and for the tone those of key workers, but those who are vulnerable. The in which he has conducted himself. hon. Lady may like to write to me with specific suggestions I have two questions. First, on A-levels, is the Secretary and actions that she feels the Department should consider of State able to offer more detail on when the alternative taking. My concern and interest is making sure that we form of assessment will be published? Secondly, on do everything in the interests of both stemming this university admissions, can he update the House on what virus and protecting the interests of those children no discussions he has had with the university sector to matter where they live in this country. ensure university admissions are fair? Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): Will my right hon. Gavin Williamson: We will be making sure that we Friend clarify whether the children he outlined earlier publish further advice on A-levels next week. We have will continue to attend the same school, and what had discussions with Universities UK, and we need to considerations have been given to children-teacher ratios look at how we can ensure universities are open and and class sizes? Small schools such as Zetland Primary ready to take in a new cohort of students in the next School in Redcar may struggle in the current climate. academic year, but the fairness of the system and making sure young people do not miss out on opportunities for Gavin Williamson: As part of the Bill that we are which they have worked so hard is at the core of what bringing forward, we will be removing the ratios that we will be doing. present some of the challenges to schools. I would be wrong, though, to give my hon. Friend the promise that Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con): children will necessarily be able to continue to attend I thank the Secretary of State for addressing the concerns their current school. We do not know at the moment the that I raised about vulnerable children in Wolverhampton. consequences of the spread of this virus, and we may 1101 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1102

[Gavin Williamson] Gavin Williamson: The entitlement will be for all children who would normally be in receipt of free school meals, need to show a high degree of flexibility in how we as against a much broader entitlement. We hope that provide that support and care. Sometimes that may families with vouchers will make best use of that money require children attending different schools, hopefully to make sure that it goes as far as possible. We certainly in close proximity to their home. None the less, we do hope that it is a nutritious and good lunch. recognise the challenges that are going to be raised as a Going back to what the hon. Member for Newcastle result of this announcement. upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) raised about how we can work with local authorities and schools to offer Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): Universities more hot meals on premises, that is something that we are expecting a huge hit financially, because international are looking at. We have to recognise that there will be students will not be able to come here, despite the constraints in the system, however, especially with the provision of some online learning. What support will spread of the virus, which will mean that that will not be provided to universities such as the University of necessarily always be possible. Bedfordshire in my constituency to ensure that they do not go bankrupt? The Government and the Office for Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): Can the Students have previously said that they would not usually Secretary of State confirm that the forthcoming emergency step in under such circumstances. coronavirus legislation will contain measures to disapply certain restrictions and regulations to allow schools to Gavin Williamson: The financial health of the university react and adapt to these difficult times? sector is obviously of key critical interest to us. We will be working closely with Universities UK to ensure the Gavin Williamson: I absolutely assure my hon. Friend stability and strength of that important sector for not that that will be the case. That is why we are bringing just learning but the economy. We urge universities who forward the Bill. are going to face financial difficulties and pressures to start engaging in an early dialogue and be honest about Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I apologise some of the challenges that they are going to face to the Secretary of State if I have missed something or financially.Otherwise, it is difficult to respond if something not caught everything he has said about early years comes out of the blue. settings. Is he saying that childminders, nurseries, both The issue of international students is important. We private and statutory, and all other early years provision, have to be realistic and expect the number of international are advised or instructed to close, or is he saying that students who attend UK universities to be lower next some should remain open? If they close, can he guarantee year. How we work with the sector to replace that that all staff will continue to receive full pay, irrespective capacity in different ways is something that the Department of the nature of the setting? is already working on. Certainly, we are already having Gavin Williamson: It does apply across the board. We those discussions with UUK. have already written to early years settings to inform them that the funding that we have been providing for Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): There are six them will continue, regardless of changes in the number big secondary schools in the borough of Kettering. of children attending those settings, which gives them Does the Secretary of State envisage that, to continue some stability in terms of future funding. the education of children of key workers, those cohorts will be educated in the six separate schools, or that some Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): Many voluntary arrangement will be made between the schools for them groups will be keen to work with schools and parents to all to come together and teach the children in one place? provide additional support for vulnerable children—for example, in breakfast clubs. Will the Secretary of State Gavin Williamson: In the initial instance, we hope thank voluntary groups for their work and encourage that provision can be provided in the school that the schools to continue to work with them to support child attends, but we recognise that, with the spread of vulnerable children in these difficult times? the virus, that will not be realistic all the way through, so we will have to look at how we show flexibility. I have Gavin Williamson: I know that my hon. Friend is a no doubt that, as in many towns and boroughs up and great champion of such issues in his constituency, and it down the country, there is already a deep level of was a great privilege to be able to join him on a recent co-operation between schools in the local community in visit to one of the high schools there. Let me take this terms of sharing resources and learning. There are opportunity to thank the many volunteers who contribute often good partnerships, but we will work with local so much to our school system. We recognise, in these education authorities, as well as regional schools unique times, that we will be turning to whole communities commissioners, to help to facilitate that. in supporting one another and supporting those who are most vulnerable, whether they are young or old, to Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): At the moment, help them to get through the coming weeks. every infant school child is entitled to a free school meal. In my constituency, that applies to all junior Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): school pupils as well. Can the Secretary of State confirm According to Public Health Warwickshire, 43% of nurses that he envisages all those currently entitled to free have children in schools. That obviously accounts for a school meals being able to receive them in the future, great number, which increases when those in other irrespective of the income criteria that apply in secondary blue-light services and other key workers are added. As schools? If a school opts for a voucher solution, what the Secretary of State has said, it will be interesting to does he expect each voucher to buy? see what emerges tomorrow, but it must be of concern 1103 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1104 that many workers who are parents will withdraw from and the children of key workers. What sort of service employment because their priority will be their children, does he expect them to provide, and what additional and that will have an impact on many sectors. Perhaps help will they be given? the Secretary of State could say a bit more about what he envisages. Gavin Williamson: We realise that while we cannot In respect of vouchers, may I urge the Secretary of ask schools and education settings to provide a normal State to prioritise the use of community cafés, and to school curriculum, it is important to provide activities address the issue of child protection? Finally, may I that engage and encourage young people to attend. We point out that France is ahead of us in the provision of will work across the board, but there are no better online education? Lessons are already provided online people than teachers to really understand what engages for all schools. Perhaps the Secretary of State could children and keeps them motivated. look into that as well. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Last summer, Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman highlighted Feeding Bristol distributed 53,000 meals to children, the large proportion of those working in the NHS who 75% of whom would otherwise have been in receipt of have children of school age. That is why it is so vital that free school meals, but it did so in collective settings such we have taken this action to help them to continue in as summer play schemes. Now we are in a very different our battle against this virus. scenario, as we are talking about getting meals out to children in individual places. What support could the Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I welcome the Secretary of State give to organisations such as Feeding announcement of measures that will help to reduce the Bristol to help them facilitate the work they have been risk of the virus spreading, while allowing NHS workers doing? who are parents to stay on the front line where they are most needed. Glossopdale School has already offered Gavin Williamson: We will be working closely with to deliver packed lunches to the homes of pupils on free schools to ensure that there is a proper distribution of school meals, which is a model that other schools might support. We have also made it clear to schools—I hope want to consider. I urge the Secretary of State to ensure that I made it clear earlier in the statement—that costs that the full details of which children are vulnerable and incurred by them will be fully reimbursed. which people are key workers are communicated to both schools and parents as soon as possible, so that Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): In answer to a everyone knows where we stand. previous question, my right hon. Friend said that schools could potentially form together into clusters; that does Gavin Williamson: We certainly will be doing that. make sense in central London, where schools are close My hon. Friend has highlighted the fact that schools, together. What will be the process of organising all head teachers, other teachers and all the support staff that? Who is going to take the lead—the local authority? constantly go above and beyond in supporting children Clearly,there is not much time to make these arrangements. who are in their care.

Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): Gavin Williamson: A key element will be the local The Secretary of State mentioned that he would work education authority, with regional schools commissioners with Universities UK in examining the financial challenges working together to promote those clusters. There is that it may face. I am concerned about the lack of clear already a high level of cross-working between schools, information about what direct support the Government but we recognise that that level of working together will be giving to those in higher education. Has the will enable us to provide much more robust provision Secretary of State thought about the changes that will throughout this crisis. happen to student finance payments? Has he looked into how degrees will be decided? Finally, what support Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Children face will be given to international students should they wish additional risks when family relationships are under to go back home? pressure. One way of reducing some of the additional strain felt by families will be the financial response to Gavin Williamson: Yes, we have looked into what we this situation, so I urge the Secretary of State to take need to do. The key point, which I made in response to forward the suggestion of the right hon. Member for the question from the hon. Member for Luton South Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) about income replacement. (Rachel Hopkins), is that if universities are in financial Will he also come forward with plans setting out how he distress they will need to highlight that at the earliest is going to support the child protection workforce, and possible stage. so that we can establish how we can best conduct a proper risk assessment of the additional deal with it. As for the issue of international students, challenges faced by children in this crisis? we recognise our obligation to ensure that they have continued accommodation here if they are unable to Gavin Williamson: I will certainly take up the hon. return to their home countries. The university sector Gentleman’s point, and ensure that representations are has been excellent in responding and ensuring that made to the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. accommodation is available, but there will be some students who cannot return home, and we will continue Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): May I associate to support them. myself with my right hon. Friend’s earlier comments and pay tribute to the incredible work that teachers Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): My right hon. Friend have been doing over the last few weeks? I have spoken said that he expected schools and nurseries to remain to many heads in Warrington this afternoon, who have open during the Easter holidays for vulnerable children been fantastic. The last few weeks have really shown 1105 Educational Settings 18 MARCH 2020 Educational Settings 1106

[Andy Carter] are in receipt of from Government, regardless of where the roll is. We made that statement yesterday. I very true spirit in the classroom—from teachers and support much hope that that point has been percolating right staff. Will the Government be reimbursing schools through the sector, but I will certainly ask the Under- for any additional costs they incur through providing Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the free school meals for children once schools have closed? Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford), to continue to Also, if schools choose to use voucher schemes, will reiterate it to all nursery providers. he ensure that those families have priority access to supermarkets? Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): I welcome the details that the Secretary of State has provided and the provisions Gavin Williamson: I can absolutely guarantee that for key workers,including on childcare and the commitment schools will be fully reimbursed for the costs they incur to ensure that the children of our vital NHS staff can as a result of providing those meals. Obviously, we go to nursery or school. However, as my hon. Friends would look at ensuring additional help as a long-term the Members for Houghton and Sunderland South measure. I will certainly take up my hon. Friend’s final (Bridget Phillipson) and for Leicester East (Claudia point with the Secretary of State for Environment, Webbe) said earlier, there is a serious question about the Food and Rural Affairs, who will be looking at such funding. In my local education authority in Redbridge, matters. the council is prepared to meet the free funding places, but as the Secretary of State will know, much of the Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I welcome funding and the business plans that many nurseries have the announcement that education settings are being is based on the additional top-up of private places at encouraged to continue looking after the children of those nurseries. Can the Secretary of State give more keyworkers, and vulnerable children, during the Easter detail about the funding to ensure that that gap is holidays. But the Secretary of State knows that many bridged and that nurseries do not have to lay off staff in school support staff are only paid for term-time working. the midst of dealing this crisis? Although I know that those dedicated staff will do all they can to help in a national crisis, I am sure he does Gavin Williamson: This is why we have made clear the not expect them to work for free, so will schools be continued funding that we would be paying to nurseries, supported to meet those extra staffing costs? but also why the Chancellor has touched on the issue of Gavin Williamson: Yes, they will be. a business rate relief, which is obviously an important component in the cost base of many of these nurseries. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): May I pay tribute to schools and to Hull City Mr Speaker: Last but certainly not least, Dr Rupa Huq. Council, which has already been working on plans to deal with children who get free school meals in the event Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): As a of schools closing? It is welcome that the Department representative of a borough that has suffered cuts of for Education is now taking the lead on this, although 64% under this Government, can I ask what additional obviously we need more detail. Would the Secretary of assistance will be available to Ealing to absorb some of State feel able to make representations to the Treasury the consequences of this decision? Our libraries, for to take up the recommendation of the Child Poverty example, are volunteer-run on reduced hours, when Action Group, which is suggesting that one way of they should be at more than full tilt—or will they be getting extra money into families is to increase child next to close? As the mum of a year 11 pupil, can I also benefit by £10—now? ask whether his exams will now be indefinitely postponed? For all his cohort, can I ask whether their sixth-form Gavin Williamson: I will certainly pass on that admissions, which are not automatic nowadays, will representation. I also thank Hull City Council for the now be based not on actual grades but on predicted work that it is doing to support schools and communities grades, in a Mystic Meg kind of way? throughout the city of Kingston upon Hull. Gavin Williamson: As has been outlined, we will Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Lab): I have been ensure that all children, who have done so much work contacted by a great many nurseries in my constituency towards their exams both at GCSE and A-level will get who are understandably quite worried for the future. It a fair system for their grades. We recognise that there is worth being clear about the detail. They said: will sometimes be disagreement over that, so it is vital to “Most of us will not survive more than a month without fee ensure a proper and robust system and a means of income. For some, it will be a matter of weeks.” redress for those children. That is something that we Nurseries are already under severe financial strain after will have in place with Ofqual, and we have already had a decade of Government underfunding, and childcare those discussions. On funding, we have been consistently insurers are refusing to support them. I welcome the clear in this statement that costs incurred by schools Secretary of State’s commitment to maintain nursery will be fully reimbursed. funding, but will he go further today and reassure my constituents by pledging to protect the income of nursery Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): On a workers for as long as is necessary? point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your advice on an urgent and important matter.On Monday,the Government Gavin Williamson: I believe that for early years settings advised the public to avoid large gatherings and gatherings and nurseries we have probably gone further than any in smaller public spaces, such as pubs, cinemas, restaurants, other aspect of business in making it absolutely clear theatres, bars and clubs, rather than closing venues that we will continue to guarantee the funding that they directly. The Creative Industries Federation has said 1107 18 MARCH 2020 Business without Debate 1108 that this is a “crippling blow” to the UK’s creative sector, Question agreed to. and there was understandable anxiety that it would Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed mean mass bankruptcies and long-term closures of to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63). venues. However, the Chancellor reassured us yesterday that insurance companies would help, saying that “for those businesses that…have a policy that covers pandemics, DELEGATED LEGISLATION the Government’s action is sufficient and will allow them to make an insurance claim against their policy”—[Official Report, 17 March Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, I will take 2020; Vol. 637, c. 932.] motions 6 to 9 together. He even went so far as to say that the Government had Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing spoken to the insurance sector looking for support, yet Order No. 118(6)), many organisations have made representations to me today to say that insurance companies will not permit TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT losses due to the covid-19 pandemic and that no theatre, That the draft National Minimum Wage (Amendment) Regulations restaurant, or small or medium-sized enterprise would 2020, which were laid before this House on 27 January, be approved. ever be able to afford that sort of cover—cover usually That the draft National Minimum Wage (Amendment) (No. 2) associated with Apple and big companies like that. Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 11 February, Therefore, what advice can you offer me on how Members be approved. might seek clarification from Ministers on this crucial issue, which is adding to the anxiety for businesses in HOUSING the creative industries and more widely? That the draft Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me House on 13 January, be approved. notice of her question. She is well aware that it is not a point of order for the Chair, but those on the Treasury LOCAL GOVERNMENT Bench will have heard her comments and I would expect ThatthedraftBuckinghamshire(StructuralChanges)(Supplementary some response. Perhaps if we can also work through the Provision and Amendment) Order 2020, which was laid before Table Office, via email at the moment, or by picking up this House on 24 February, be approved.—(David Rutley.) the phone to speak to someone, that may also help to Question agreed to. resolve the situation. Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, I will take HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION motions 10 and 11 together. Resolved, That Sir Charles Walker be appointed to the House of Commons BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (24 MARCH) Commission in place of Sir Paul Beresford in pursuance of the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978, as amended.—(David Ordered, Rutley.) That at the sitting on Tuesday 24 March, the business determined by the Backbench Business Committee may continue until 7.00pm PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION or for one and a half hours after its commencement, whichever is the later, and shall then lapse if not previously disposed of, and Resolved, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) will not apply. That Mr Richard Bacon, Jack Brereton, Mr Nicholas Brown, —(David Rutley.) Clive Efford, Peter Grant, Sir Edward Leigh and Alan Mak be appointed, and that Douglas Chapman and Julian Knight be discharged as members of the Public Accounts Commission CORONAVIRUS BILL under section 2(2)(c) of the National Audit Act 1983.—(David Ordered, Rutley.) That, if a Bill entitled the Coronavirus Bill is presented and read the first time— Business without Debate Standing Orders Nos. 83J to 83O (Certification of bills, clauses, schedules etc) shall not apply to the Bill; SENTENCING (PRE-CONSOLIDATION notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be AMENDMENTS) BILL [LORDS] moved in Committee in respect of the Bill may be accepted by Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the Clerks at the Table before it has been read a second Orders Nos. 59(3) and 90(5)), That the Bill be now time.—(David Rutley.) read a Second time. 1109 18 MARCH 2020 Future of Farming: Somerset 1110

Future of Farming: Somerset in law. A private Member’s Bill to fix that passed through the House last year, for which I am grateful to That this House Motion made, and Question proposed, colleagues, but it was then sabotaged by the Liberal do now adjourn.— (David Rutley.) Democrats in the other place for reasons that I still, to this day, do not understand. 6.47 pm However, the new all-singing, all-dancing Environment Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) Bill could easily be tweaked to ensure that the SRA can (Con): I start my dissertation by firmly apologising to raise what it needs through precepts. I hope that the the Minister, who has not had a copy of my speech. I Minister will be in a position—perhaps not now, but in managed to send it to the wrong Minister, so I apologise the near future—to give me an indication of how and unreservedly—that just shows quite how incompetent when that problem could be solved. I would be happy to I can be. have a discussion with him about that. Believe it or not, I am very grateful to have this rare Meanwhile, farmers on the Somerset levels remain opportunity to address the House about a subject that understandably anxious, as we all are, over our future is very close to my heart and that of a lot of Members— trading relations with Europe. This is dairy country— farming. As I am talking about farming, I ask the although not exclusively—and the dairy industry is, as Minister to make sure that we as a Parliament ensure one analyst put it recently, “close to broke”. We have that vets are taken in as key workers. I know that that one of the largest milk companies in the country, Müller. was not mentioned today by the Prime Minister, and I We are also the home of Yeo Valley. That is why farmers take this opportunity to put that forward. are puzzled and concerned by the decision of the Secretary Adjournment debates are a bit like Opposition election of State to potentially halt—it depends how we look at slogans, especially if you turn them upside down—in it—the culling of badgers in Somerset. I know that it is our case, it would be, “For the few, not the many”. an emotive subject for all sides, but there is ample However, at least the few of us here this evening are evidence that the cull in Somerset is significantly cutting demonstrating the best health practices. I am keeping a the incidence of tuberculosis and proving its worth. safe distance from the Minister and I promise that no That is because it is being done well. Badgers and their offence is intended. human supporters may take a different view, but I am This is a difficult time for all of us, I am afraid, slightly shocked and worried that the Secretary of State— farmers included. Let me tell the Minister a bit more I say this advisedly—appears to be siding with them. about the Bridgwater and West Somerset constituency. Dairy farmers, like all farmers, love their animals. At the Bridgwater end, we have some of the lowest-lying They know how bovine TB can rip through a herd. farmland in the United Kingdom, and at the West What kind of message are we sending them? The cull Somerset end, particularly on Exmoor, we have some of has effectively removed a major health risk. The prospect the highest. Both areas have faced huge challenges even of vaccinations is still too vague and too far away. I at the best of times. Down on the levels, we have so far wonder whether the Minister understands the economic managed to survive the winter without a repeat of the tightrope that dairy farmers and beef farmers already devastating floods that emerged in 17 miles of Somerset face. The only way to make any decent money from six years ago. Back then, the Environment Agency was milk is to turn it into butter, yoghurt and cheese. Many led by deaf donkeys in blindfolds. It took a great deal of farmers would struggle or go bust if they could not persuasion to convince them that rivers work much do that. better when they are regularly dredged, and I pay Despite all the hurdles, Somerset cheese has developed enormous tribute to David Cameron for leading that a worldwide reputation, which is fantastic. But that charge. Any of my farmers on the levels could have told was before this awful virus stopped worldwide travel, them that, and in fact, they did tell them that in no crippled airlines and squeezed economies right around uncertain terms—I went to the meetings. the globe. A week or so ago, you could visit the swankiest The thing about farmers is that they know the land. cheese shop in the swankiest food mall in San Francisco They respect the weather. They understand that climate and find an unpasteurised Montgomery’s cheese from is changing and that we cannot afford to sit back and do Somerset displayed in pride of place. The only complaint nothing. They, like me, speak their minds. For example, the proprietor would have was that he could not get there is genuine concern about the long-term financial enough of it. Now he would be very lucky to receive any commitment to keep Somerset flood-free. Naturally, I supplies at all. am delighted—as is my whole area, and especially the Cheese makers such as Wyke Farms also export large levels—that the Chancellor’s Budget guaranteed proper quantities to Europe—or they did. Even at the best of funding of £114 million for the tidal barrage. That is times, the margins are uncomfortably tight, and these incredibly welcome, and I thank the team. are not the best of times. There is a stupid urban myth But the Minister will be aware of the question mark about farmers: that they all plead poverty but still find that continues to hang over the future of the Somerset the cash to buy flashy new cars each year. We have all Rivers Authority. The SRA is a flood prevention heard that. I can assure the House—I think the House organisation. It uses the expertise of local drainage knows it anyway—that that is not true. Every farmer I boards and the most clued-up councils, such as Sedgemoor have ever known works their socks off to break even. District Council. The authority gets its funding from They are rightly worried about the impact of new various public organisations but also, crucially, relies on trading hurdle that comes up. The latest threat is to a precept that is added to council tax. That is rare, but suspend trade at the Sedgemoor auction centre, which is not unusual. Without that tax element, all the ambitious commonly known as junction 24—junction 24 being plans to safeguard people from the horrors of flooding the junction on the M5. I have to say that that would be would be at risk. As of now, the precept is not enshrined a financial disaster for local farmers. The centre attracts 1111 Future of Farming: Somerset18 MARCH 2020 Future of Farming: Somerset 1112 entries from all parts of England and Wales. The impact that progress has been made and things have improved, on the rural economy, if it closes, cannot be overstated. but we are still in an unparalleled national crisis and the Farmers, by and large, buy and sell their animals at Government want people to work from home. That is auction. That is the way it has always been done, and it rightly so and totally supported by the House, but we would be almost impossible to do so at the end of a need a technical taskforce to be able to create a quick fix computer, even if one could get a connection, and I will for Exmoor and other cut-off rural parts. Across the come to that in a minute. United Kingdom, broadband is a necessity. It is a I appreciate that tackling the virus is the most urgent miracle that our hill farmers continue to put up with it. national priority, but I ask the Minister to consider Thank heavens they do. whether there are sensible ways in which auction centres Those who want the land to go back to the wild are such as Sedgemoor can be allowed to continue trading. not living in the real world. Rewilding may be a fashionable The public have already been discouraged from attending fiction in “The Archers”, but it is make-believe for sales. The organisers are already considering limiting places such as Exmoor. In any case, only proper farmers sellers and buyers. They are doing their bit. can make it work. They have to work the land, not learn I would like to have discussed the issue with Somerset it in a book. That is why I want the new Agriculture Bill County Council’s—believe it or not—£108,000-a-year to match every EU subsidy pound for pound, improve director of public health. However, she is hard to reach the way that farmers are paid and protect the quality of and appears to be working at home, as indeed, I am British products against foreign competition. I do not afraid, most of our county staff soon will be. It does not believe we should tolerate the importing of inferior inspire much confidence. I would have expected a decent goods with lower standards than our own. There is a county council to be making information videos, putting long way to go before the new Bill is passed, and I up posters and taking advertising space in the local would like the Minister’s assurance that there is still press to keep us informed. In most counties, people are time for constructive change. I am sure that there will be doing it. That is great. I certainly know that they are in Committee. doing it in Bristol. I am afraid Somerset, with its fat cat I have asked a lot in this short debate— top brass, is silent. This disease demands a better response from county councils. It seems that Somerset is wasting 7 pm time and money on becoming a unitary authority and is Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). not listening to what the people need. I appeal to the leader of Somerset County Council to please stop posturing Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House and get on with the job. do now adjourn.—(David Rutley.) When this dreadful virus is behind us, there is one Mr Liddell-Grainger: That will teach me to watch the other thing that farmers fear: a post-Brexit tariff war time more carefully. with Europe. Make no mistake, farming is a vital industry in Somerset. It employs, indirectly and directly, many I have asked a lot in this short debate. In the weeks hundreds of people, but it is forced to look over its and months ahead, farmers will become more important shoulder and count the pennies all the time. We are no to us all. We will rely on what they produce in ways that longer a member of the European Union, but until we have probably never considered but now need to December we remain in the system, claiming the subsidies because we are in a national emergency. and following the rules. All that will change, particularly for farmers who will continue to farm on the uplands of Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I have read that Exmoor. Somerset County Council has sold off nearly two thirds of its agricultural land in the past decade. The Agriculture It has been recognised for the best part of a century Bill Committee is looking at how we can better support that hill farming on Exmoor is viable only because of county farms, which the Government have promised to the subsidy system. Trying to make a living out of some do in the past. Does the hon. Gentleman think it is a Exmoor farms, if they were unsubsidised, would be like real shame that the council no longer owns those farms, trying to make a living out of a window box. That is which often provided an entry to farming for people flippant, but true. It is not a comfortable living, and I who could not afford to buy huge swathes of land invite any lowland farmer who thinks Exmoor is a themselves? featherbed to spend a hard, wet winter high on the moors. This year it has been hard and very wet. Mr Liddell-Grainger: The hon. Lady knows me well—she What we get for our money is the preservation of tempts me, and I will rise to the bait. Yes, it is appalling some of the finest landscape anywhere in the United that the council sold them off. I was totally against their Kingdom—landscape that forms the key attractions of being sold off. County farms were the way that young the south-west’s tourism industry.I can show the Minister people got into farming—the way people could get on plenty of evidence that the landscape is the No. 1 reason the farming ladder. The farms were not big—they were most people come to Exmoor on holiday, and rightly comparatively small—but they gave people a chance. so. We welcome any Members of the House who want Any county that sold them off is an absolute disgrace. to come and see how beautiful it is. We must support Yes, of course, I know that they wanted the money, but the hill farmers as generously as we do now. we have stopped an entire generation of young people Without the hill farms much of Exmoor would revert going into farming. I am 61, and the average age of to an ugly,unloved wilderness—all scrub and, to paraphrase, farmers is my age. How long can we sustain real farmers? tumbleweed. Much of the moor is still a no-go area for I do not think that the Government can be blamed for any kind of modern communications. There are dead that—although I would probably quite like to blame zones for mobile phones and internet speeds can be so them, they cannot be blamed—because it was done slow that it is almost quicker to post a letter. I know under many different Governments over many years. 1113 Future of Farming: Somerset18 MARCH 2020 Future of Farming: Somerset 1114

[Mr Liddell-Grainger] Our food reflects who we are as a country. We care about animals hugely, including farm animals, and we Places like Somerset, the old county of which we were value the high-quality, high-welfare, sustainably produced all part in the old days, had a huge amount of farms, food and drink that we are fortunate to enjoy at home and they were enormous and did such a good job. They and that is recognised all around the world, including have gone over a long time, covering three generations— Somerset’s finest. My hon. Friend talked of some of the basically since 1945—but the hon. Lady makes an absolutely challenges faced by the producers, but it is fair to say fair point and I agree with her. that Somerset has been making cheddar since at least I have one final appeal to the Minister. Sedgemoor the 12th century, and what could be more quintessentially auction centre is crucial to farmers, as it is—believe it or British than a hunk of west country farmhouse cheddar, not—to all of us here. Whatever our party, whatever washed down with a cold glass of Somerset cider brandy? our age and however much we are at risk, just being This Government will always back British farmers, here shows that we are still in session. We must support who are some of the very best in the world, taking care that and stay in business here, and that goes for our of our landscapes and animals, all while feeding the farmers, too: they want to stay in business there. nation, just as they have done for generation after generation. This is a time of opportunity, but I recognise 7.2 pm the challenges for UK agriculture. We understand that The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury these changes can be daunting, as well as presenting (James Morris): I thank my hon. Friend the Member opportunity, and we are conscious that farmers need for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) time to plan and adapt for their futures, and support to for securing this important debate and for his contribution. decide what is right for them and for their business. He is a passionate advocate for his constituents. Wewill match 2019 levels in every year of this Parliament. We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to strike a As my hon. Friend mentioned, our Agriculture Bill is balance that works for our independent country—to let making its way through Parliament, and our aim is that go of the railings of the sinking ship that is the EU’s it will reach Royal Assent by the summer. This is of highly bureaucratic common agricultural policy and its vital importance to the agriculture sector, in order to irrational system of area-based payments. I also recognise, begin a fair, progressive, seven-year transition to a much as my hon. Friend said, that the farming sector currently better way of doing things in 2027. faces huge challenges with the coronavirus crisis. Our My hon. Friend made several points in his remarks. environmental land management scheme will reward On the Somerset Rivers Authority, I will write to him farmers for the vital environmental work that they do about the implications he described. He mentioned the alongside feeding the nation, helping us to meet the badger cull, and I will talk to the Secretary of State targets that we will set through our Environment Bill so about the points he raised about that and about the that we can fulfil our legally binding commitment to Sedgemoor auction centre, in the context of contingency reach net zero by 2050 and leave the environment in a planning for the coronavirus. He made some remarks better state than we found it in. about the challenges of upland farming. It is fair to say We are working with farmers, foresters and land that the Government are confident that within the new managers to make sure that we design a much better scheme being outlined in the Agriculture Bill, upland way of doing things that works as well on farms up and farmers will stand to benefit considerably from the new down the country as it does on paper. Forty trials are arrangements that the Government are introducing in live in the first phase and a further 25 will follow in the the Bill. second. Somerset is clearly part of that collaboration, I would like to close by making this important point. and it will be critical to getting our policies absolutely Sustainable farming and food production can and, indeed, right. The farming and wildlife advisory group in the must go hand in hand. No one understands this better south-west is helping us to consider an approach to than our farmers right across the country. After all, the paying farmers for their work on floodplain land and great outdoors is their office, day in and day out. After a water management, and we will continue to refine our hot summer and an incredibly wet winter, they are the systems together over the coming months. first to feel the effects of climate change in our countryside, We are optimistic and we are aiming high, so that we and they are hungry for change. This is our chance to create a coherent policy, designed for our farmers, which do things differently and put our farmers, such as those rewards them properly for their work to improve the in Somerset, at the very heart of our efforts to tackle the environment, creating new habitats, reducing flooding causes and consequences of climate change in a way and helping to tackle climate change, and enables them that helps nature recover too. I hope that hon. Members to become more profitable by investing in new equipment, will all support the ambitious Agriculture Bill currently adding value to their product and improving transparency making its way through this place, so that we can chart in the supply chain. That is our approach—tackling the a new course for English agriculture for decades to causes of poor profitability, not masking them with an come and a new way of doing things for the world arbitrary area-based subsidy, so that farms of every size to follow. and in every part of our country, including Somerset, Question put and agreed to. have a chance to thrive. The smaller firms that my hon. Friend mentioned should feel equally optimistic about the opportunities this bespoke way of doing things will 7.9 pm bring for their businesses. House adjourned. 313WH 18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 314WH

the same until the latter part of the 19th century, but Westminster Hall then that changed and since then prison officers’ pay has never caught up. To some extent, that is a tragedy, Wednesday 18 March 2020 but it is where we are. I do not think we can reverse that, but we can mitigate it and take action, whether on pensions or other terms and conditions. [MR LAURENCE ROBERTSON in the Chair] That brings me to the question of who we are talking Prison Staff: Health and Safety about. As I say, there is a great deal of misunderstanding; I remember going into the Prison Service and chatting Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair): Before we away to officers about this. There are many occupations start, I must apologise: the screen on the left-hand side at the present moment, such as health service workers, of the Chamber is not working. Hon. Members will police officers or those who work with the children and have to look at one of the others, because I know that elderly, where people will cross the street to thank them nobody would want to speak for too long. and shake their hand. That rarely happens for prison officers—they get a sharp intake of breath instead—but 9.30 am the service they give often mirrors that contributed by those other services, and the work they do is valuable. Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): I beg to move, There is also a sense of misunderstanding among That this House has considered health and safety of prison those going into the service. I remember asking young staff. officers at the training academy at Polmont in Scotland It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, whether the job was what they had anticipated. They Mr Robertson. I start by paying tribute to the hon. said they had gone in thinking their job would be like Member for Easington (Grahame Morris), because this a security guard’s, but it was much more like that of a debate is of his instigation. It was his idea, and it is psychiatric nurse. Those of us involved in the prison regrettable that he is not here to move the motion, but estate know how much of the work is like that of a he is doing the correct thing by self-isolating. I understand psychiatric nurse, even though these people are not that the same is true for the ministerial Benches; it is the properly trained or qualified for such work. It is about appropriate action to take. I thank the hon. Gentleman dealing with deeply troubled people; prison officers do and his staff for the support and guidance they have have to deal with deeply violent people on occasion, but given me, and for the opportunity to speak in a debate the work they do with young offenders, women prisoners that is especially important not only at this juncture, but and vulnerable prisoners is really quite exceptional. It is in the wider context of recent years. a matter not of brutality but of humanity, which is why we have to put on record our tribute to them. We have to start with an explanation of who we are dealing with when we talk about prison staff, because We also have to remember that these people are not there is a great lack of awareness, if not ignorance. As a particularly well trained for this work, nor are they well young lawyer in Scotland many years ago—over a paid. As I understand it, a prison officer in Norway generation now—I would give a jury speech that would goes through a degree course of four years. In Scotland, basically explain that the ladies and gentlemen of the as in England, a person will be able to be active and jury did not know the jury system in Scotland. They working—albeit not necessarily on the landing—within knew more about Henry Fonda in “12 Angry Men” a period of weeks that they can count on both hands. than they did about the fact that jury trials in Scotland That is hugely different from what other regimes expect, have 15 members and three verdicts. Things are obviously but it is expected here. Indeed, once we include people’s slightly different when it comes to prison staff, but in toes as well as their fingers, they will be on the landing many ways the context is the same. Many people’s and expected to deal with frontline work. I do not argue impression of a prison will come more from “The that there needs to be a degree course, but I do think Shawshank Redemption” than from the prison in the that we need to expect and understand the challenges that locality near them, or where people from their communities prison staff face, because they do that with sparse go. We have to challenge that. training and not for a king’s ransom, as has been The lack of awareness also extends to those who mentioned in relation to a variety of other issues. work in the Prison Service. That is why I put on the That takes us on to the particular issues. The first record the fact that they are a uniformed service; they issue that I want to touch on is why the Minister and I are also an emergency service, although they are not are here. The reason is that the coronavirus is striking classified in that way by Government. I think others will down Members of this institution as it will strike down comment on that issue when we talk about how their members of our community. pensions are treated: it is an outrage that people are expected to operate on a landing at the age of 68. Some John Howell (Henley) (Con): Before the hon. Gentleman jobs are age restricted, and being a prison officer should moves on to the coronavirus, will he accept that a large most certainly be one. They deserve to be treated the part of the problem that prison officers face is the same as other services. working conditions and prisons’ terrible state of repair? This is a historic issue. My good friend Professor On the Justice Committee, we estimated that the cost of Andrew Coyle served at both Peterhead prison in Scotland the repairs would come to £900 million. and Brixton prison down here in London, and is a global expert on prisons. I remember reading in his Kenny MacAskill: Yes, I fully concur. In many areas, history of the Prison Service in Scotland that in the the prison estate is Victorian; sometimes it even predates initial stages, police and prison officers had parity. The that era. It has to be upgraded. Good work has been pay of a constable and the pay of a prison officer were ongoing in Scotland—that does not come cheap—and I 315WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 316WH

[Kenny MacAskill] That does not take away from the reason why the hon. Member for Easington brought up this issue in the know that work has been established here. Equally, we first instance. It has already been touched on in the two have to have the right institutions. Super-prisons are not interventions: violence on the prison estate. There was the way to go. We have to have the right prison estate, an underlying crisis even before the coronavirus came and it has to be a suitable prison estate. upon us. This has been ticking away. It has not been an act of God. It has not been a global pandemic from Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): The hon. which we cannot isolate our country any more than any Gentleman rightly talks about what we need to do to other nation can. There have been wilful acts of neglect support prison officers because they are behind the by this and past Administrations. There has been a wire, but deterrence is one of the key issues; it is vital in failure to act timeously and appropriately. Money was prisons. At a prison in my constituency, HMP Stocken, tight, but it is tighter now. Money can be found for there was a nasty attack on a prison officer. It is corporations, but apparently it cannot be found for extremely troubling that although the guidance is that custodians. That cannot be right. for attacks on prison officers there should be consecutive We must look at the records on the issues raised, in sentences, too often prisoners are actually receiving terms of staffing and violence, and in terms of specific concurrent sentences, which essentially acts as no deterrent drugs, such as Spice, about which I have some sympathy and tells prisoners that they can go on attacking prison for the Government. Even with the best regime, the officers as they will. ability to stop drugs coming into prisons is a social as well as an institutional problem, which we have to deal Kenny MacAskill: The hon. Member makes a valid with. point. I am always of the view that these things are best It is clear from the Library briefing, which many of dealt with by the independent judiciary; we must allow us have, that prison workforce numbers fell by a quarter them to deal with the particular facts and circumstances. between 2010 and 2014, from 25,000 to 18,000. To be However, I have to place it on the record—the Prison fair, the numbers have come up again slightly, but they Officers Association and the other unions would expect are still not back to where they were. In addition, the no less—that we cannot tolerate prison officers being numbers were higher before 2010, although that figure viewed as punchbags, because people should not routinely includes support staff, and, because of contracting and be abused, albeit I do think that the judiciary have a privatisation, which I will come on to, the fall in numbers duty to take cognisance of the issues and challenges has been ongoing. being faced. More critical has been the loss of experience. Becoming An analogy that I have heard when speaking to a prison officer is not something that people can pick people is that prisons are a microcosm of our society. up in 10 weeks; it is picked up over years of service. People will say, “Why don’t prisons educate prisoners They need to know who to watch out for, who to look like this? Why don’t they give them work training like out for, who is vulnerable, who needs to be watched that? Why don’t they care for them like this?” It is like because they are up to various things, and all the tricks going into a school or college and saying, “You’re going and turns that go on. In 2010, 7% of prison officers had to do every class in the curriculum and you’re going to been in post for less than 2 years, compared with 35% in do it in this corridor,” because that is the situation in a 2019. When we are dealing with a crisis in numbers and prison. There is a requirement for education facilities, the estate, to have over a third of the staff being work facilities, health facilities and social engagement inexperienced is simply scandalous. The proportion of facilities; there is a requirement for kitchens. And those prison officers who had 10 years’ experience or more things are required in a confined space, so some of the went from 56% to 46%. things that can be delivered in a school, college, university There has been an increase in the numbers of assaults, or even a Parliament cannot be done, and certainly not and the record on that is quite lamentable. It reached a to the same extent. peak of 10,424 assaults on staff in the year ending June Equally, on the coronavirus, we have criteria being 2019. Before 2015, there were around 3,000 recorded put down about social distancing, working from home assaults. That is a threefold increase and more; it is and self-isolation. How can that be done by prisoners, simply unacceptable. let alone prison officers? There is a specific need there, I have some understanding of what the Government and my request to the Minister is this. Can we get some are dealing with in terms of Spice and I cut them some guidance and assurance about testing and about the slack. It troubles our communities and our estates. It safety and security of staff and of prisoners? needs checks and it needs to be rolled back. The hon. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Member for Rutland and Melton made the point that Kearns) made the correct point. We have to deal not no one should routinely be afraid of assault when they simply with prison officers and prison staff, but with go to work. No one whose loved one works in the prisoners, because if we create conditions, as the hon. service should worry about them on a daily basis. Some Member for Henley (John Howell) mentioned, that are occupations will always trouble us, such as those that unacceptable, that creates a toxic cocktail that we have went down the pits, went offshore fishing or serve as to address. I therefore ask the Minister to be specific police officers, but we take steps to ensure their safety. about what assurances he can give to staff, because Little has been done and the situation has worsened for some of the anecdotal tales coming back from the trade prison officers, which is simply unacceptable. unions are of staff members being expected to do What is said to police officers—that they cannot and things that would not be asked of staff here and that are should not expect to routinely be punchbags—must unacceptable or unsafe, and prison staff have families equally apply to prison officers. Whether it is by concurrent and elderly relatives the same as the rest of us. or consecutive sentences, or by increased sentencing, 317WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 318WH action needs to be taken. I agree with the hon. Member There are other issues I would like to briefly touch for Rutland and Melton that those perpetrating the on. We have a growing elderly population. I said earlier assaults need to realise that their actions have consequences, that our prison staff are not trained to be psychiatric and for prison officers such assaults cannot simply be nurses, but nor are they trained to be geriatric nurses. viewed as being part of the job or par for the course. Yet we now have—certainly not in Scotland, but in It is frightening. The prison officers’ unions have England—a centenarian in prison. In Scotland, I visited provided testimony from individuals that is scandalous. a prison where we had a particular ward that was for A male private sector prison officer states: those who were septuagenarian, octogenarian or nonagenarian. It was a geriatric ward. “Prisons are totally unsafe for staff and prisoners. I have been It caused huge difficulties for the staff, because most a prison officer for over 20 years and its decline in that time has been shocking. This decline is down to the profiled staffing levels of those prisoners were in there for historic sexual being reduced by 50%, with the same risk prisoners to work offences. Accordingly it was not just the prison officers with.” who were viewed as punchbags, but those prisoners too. It caused difficulties for the management of the prison Another male public sector prison officer states: to keep them separate and secure from those who would “I have just returned from hospital after receiving treatment otherwise view it as an opportunity to “pay off”, as for yet another bite I received as a result of an assault by a they say, some gratuitous violence. prisoner. However,on this occasion the prisoner has been confirmed as being Hepatitis C positive!” Alicia Kearns: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, That is simply unacceptable. There is a whole catalogue despite the age of the sex offenders that he mentioned, of such comments and I could go on. A male public they should rightly remain in prison, because the crimes sector prison officer says: they have committed will affect those children, and now adults, for the entirety of their lives? If they were not “I have been in the Service for over 20 years and I have never brought to justice until they were 70 years old, because felt scared to come to work - but now I fear for myself and my colleagues.” the system failed in the past and we did not believe that those crimes had been committed, they must serve their That is scandalous, and we have to address it. time. The victims deserve to see justice being served. We must increase staffing levels and retain experience. That must mean looking at terms and conditions, and Kenny MacAskill: Absolutely. I always remember especially at pensions. We need to address those who that being put to me by the former Lord Advocate, perpetrate the problem. We need to tackle a culture of Dame Elish Angiolini. She said, “They took someone’s violence and the cocktail of drugs, which are mentioned childhood. They can forfeit their old age.” That seems by the prison officer staff unions in terms of how they to me to be a reasonable trade-off. want a charter implemented, and I ask the Minister to The question is not whether they should be punished— take that on board. It cannot just be soaked up by those that is undoubtable—but where they should be retained. who serve. Action must be taken by Government. Many of our prison estates, as I have already touched on, are Victorian. I had this discussion with the chief It would be remiss of me not to mention the private executive of the Scottish Prison Service; we would be sector. I put on the record that I have great support for better acquiring a care home and making it semi-secure private-sector prison officers and staff, as I have for if we need to, although most of these people are hardly those who work in the public sector, but privatisation going to be running down our high streets on their has been an unmitigated disaster, as it was in probation, zimmers, fleeing from a prison officer.The whole institution and I would ask the Minister consider rolling back in which we retain them is inappropriate. upon it. The best testimony that I ever received was the I mentioned the prison in Scotland because not only former inspector of prisons in Scotland, Clive Fairweather. did they have to keep them secure from others who I do not think Clive Fairweather would necessarily would have done them harm, but they could not even have been a supporter of me or my party, as his whole double them up. I thought it was funny at the time, but background was having been a British Army officer— it was not really. They could not put them in a top bank indeed, his final role had been as commander of the because of their rheumatoid arthritis. It simply was not SAS—but I remember Clive telling me why he opposed possible to double them up. It might be that as a society, private prisons. It has stuck with me ever since. He said, we should be looking at acquiring different premises for “When I was commander of the SAS, if I needed to those people. authorise people to take the lives of others, I did so The principle remains that they have to be punished, because of the authority I had and the cap badge that but the question is where they should be detained. Do said I was acting on behalf of the Crown. If I need to we need to spend on that high security? For some of take the liberty of an individual then I should do so not them, most certainly, but most of them are hardly going because it suits a corporation diktat or a corporation to be a threat. We could keep them under the same lock profit, but because of the authority of the Crown.” and key as a dementia ward in many instances, I would People are complaining about money going to private have thought. That would be easier for us and better for hospital beds as we hit a coronavirus crisis. Let us the staff. remember that a lot of money has been going to private There is also the question of throughput care. The investors as we have had to fill up the private estate in great tragedy is the skills that prison officers have. I order to balance prison numbers. That has meant that remember being at a showing of the movie “The Angels’ there has not been the money to spend on terms and Share”, which I thought was quite beneficial in trying to conditions or to improve the estate, because so much is challenge young people about their behaviour, and I going out of the door in revenue payments that we remember a prison officer’s commenting that he spent cannot afford capital expenditure. more with time with those young people than he did 319WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 320WH

[Kenny MacAskill] providing an additional 10,000 places has meant that repairs to prisons have taken a back seat. We can with his own kids in his own family. Yet when they left address much of that, and the prison in Leeds is doing the estate, despite the bond he had created and the fact so. Working parties of staff and prisoners together that in many instances he had become a father figure, he carry out maintenance activity within the prison. I could not relate to them. We have to get the balance. would like to see something similar taken on board by That officer would not want trouble when he is out with other prisons, to get the work done. The Justice Committee his family, taking them places, but there are skills that looked at this and came to the conclusion that the the prison officers can take out into the community. backlog of maintenance required in prisons came to First, we have to get other agencies to come into the about £900 million—an increase from £716 million in prison earlier and more often—often they do not—to 2018. That that is an incredible backlog, and it shows take their responsibility, as opposed to leaving everything that not enough is being done to tackle this. with the Prison Service until the prisoner is discharged Several things contribute to the problem. One is beyond the prison gate; and secondly, we should look at a real crisis of leadership in prisons. There has been a the opportunity for how we can use those skills and tremendous amount of activity to try to give governors maintain the through care. We all know that the reason more power over what happens in their prisons, but I do why so many people come back in through the revolving not think that that has gone far enough. We need door is that they fall by the wayside and the person who governors who really have control of their prisons, was keeping them on the road was that particular because after all, they see the detail of where maintenance prison officer. is required and can deal with it continually. I simply want to sum up, Mr Robertson. You have Another significant aspect is space being made available given me a great deal of latitude. I put on the record my for purposeful activity. There is no doubt in my mind thanks to the Prison Service and its staff. I ask the that purposeful activity plays a strong part in prisons. I Minister: what steps will be taken not simply on coronavirus have said in the House before that, with previous Justice and the staff, but to address the underlying issues that Committees, I have been to Denmark and Germany to are looming—and already exist—in the prison estate on see how prisons there deal with purposeful activity. In staffing levels, staff morale, violence against prison Denmark, one thing that made the biggest difference officers and the drugs cocktail situation, as well as the was not purposeful activity in the sense of making growing issues of through care and in particular an things, but the way in which the prisoners were treated. elderly population? That is a big task, and we face many What made the biggest difference was that they did not tasks at the moment, but we can no more expect our eat communal style, as in the “Porridge” series, but were hospital staff to be heroic than we can expect our prison allowed to earn their own money and to cook their own staff—who are being heroic—to be so. Not only must food. There were some restrictions, such as knives having we give them the thanks to which they are entitled but, to be chained to the wall, but that made a huge difference more importantly, in our privileged position as legislators, in keeping the lid on violence in that prison and making we must take steps to action plans to protect them. sure that the prisoners were fit for rehabilitation. The German prison I visited—this goes back to the point 9.51 pm that the hon. Member for East Lothian made about John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve where in a prison these issues can be tackled—had a big under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. It is also a warehouse for making furniture. The prisoners all played pleasure to have two Front Benchers in this debate who a part in making furniture, which had an enormous have both been members of the Select Committee on impact on their lives. Justice. They understand the sort of comments being My last point, which I will just make before I leave made by the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny space for others to come in, is that there has been too MacAskill), and I hope that they recall the report on much ad hoc dealing with the problems in the Prison prison governance that we produced, which covered a Service over the years. Nobody has taken a strategic number of the issues. direction, grabbed the issue by the neck and sorted it We are in an enduring crisis of safety and decency in out. If there is one message that I would give to the our prisons. As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, this Minister, it is that strategic direction needs to be put crisis is not something that has just happened; it has into the Prison Service. The issue needs to be addressed, been going on for a long time. Violence is at an all-time because it is not just a question of prisoner safety, but high. Up until March 2019, there were more than of prison officer safety. 34,000 assaults in the prison system and, of those assaults, more than 10,000 were on staff. That is an 9.58 am increase in assaults on staff of 15%. A major contributory factor to the level of violence Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): It is a and the state that prison officers must endure is working pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. conditions. As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, the I congratulate the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame prisons are mostly Victorian—or earlier—constructions. Morris) on securing the debate on this critical issue, and We need to tackle the level of accumulated maintenance I wish him a speedy recovery. I also thank the hon. in such prisons, but the focus of Government activity Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) for stepping seems to be on 10,000 more prisoner places, rather than in at short notice. on curing the maintenance problem. First, it is important to consider what we, as a society, I give full credit for the £100 million put into the believe the purpose of our prisons to be. I am a former Prison Service to improve safety and security, and we police officer and have witnessed at first hand the wide, should not lose sight of that, but the concentration on varied and complex reasons why people end up offending 321WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 322WH and, consequently, entering our justice system. Surely “I have seen perfectly healthy people join in the last 12 months the main aim of our prisons is to rehabilitate offenders and become very ill due to prison work and the lack of discipline so that they leave and do not go on to reoffend and are to create a safe space for prisoners to live.” able to make a positive contribution to society.Punishment I am keen to hear from the Minister on what further is obviously a factor, but in the vast majority of cases it steps are being taken in Her Majesty’s Prison and should be secondary to rehabilitation. Probation Service. Does it have a mental health first aid However, the challenges facing the Prison Service programme? What steps is it taking to discourage make that very difficult to achieve. Tom Halpin, chief presenteeism? Acknowledgment of mental health issues executive officer of community justice organisation Sacro, and early intervention can support better recovery and commented: an earlier return to the workplace. “The current overcrowding in Scottish prisons means the focus The “Safe Inside Prisons” charter, recently launched is on security and safety…Rehabilitation—particularly for those by the Joint Unions in Prisons Alliance, suggests some on short sentences—is simply not a priority.” ways to help relieve the burden on staff. Primary among Prison staff are central to achieving positive outcomes them is a proposal to introduce a single reporting for prisoners and wider society. They need to be properly system for violence in prisons, as the current system is supported, and to receive good training and the right very fragmented. Staff need to feel they can support resources to help them to rehabilitate. Failing to deliver any incident, and we need to make it easier for staff to that contributes to the poor health and safety of staff, do so. A new system should be accessible both internally as we are discussing. and externally so that staff can report incidents away from the workplace. As Members have laid out, the current situation for prison staff is frankly intolerable. Assaults on prison I am pleased to have signed the early-day motion on staff have been rising for more than 10 years and for this matter, tabled by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor every 1,000 prisoners in England and Wales there were Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), which I am pleased 35 assaults on staff in 2010; last year, the figure had to see has gained widespread support from all corners risen to 121. of the House. In particular, I highlight the part of the motion that refers to prison staff as “diligent, brave and It should not be like that. Every person should have committed”. I echo those remarks. The service they the right to feel safe at their place of work. We must do provide is remarkable and the Government need to better. Ultimately, our prisons are under-resourced and recognise that by providing the resources required to overcrowded. As of last July, Scottish prisons were close help them. to capacity after the number of inmates increased from 7,400 to more than 8,200. Although prison staff numbers I call on the Government to commit to a zero-assault in England and Wales have increased since 2014 to ambition for prison staff and to use radical evidence-based 23,000, that is still fewer than were employed in 2010. policy to address the causes of violence in prisons. Everyone has the right to feel safe in their place of Prison staff are working at capacity, so they do not work. Although I welcome the Government’scommitment have the time to access the training and development last year of £100 million to fund airport-style security they need to do their jobs better. That means they are for prisons, we must ask whether that is tackling the not developing. As the hon. Member for East Lothian root causes of violence in prisons. It is not simply about said, it is about not just initial training but ongoing preventing access to offensive weapons but about working professional development. A member of staff in the to ensure that prisoners do not feel the need to carry prison sector said: them or use them in prison. “I feel the poor environment in establishments has been caused by inexperienced staff training new staff. The training staff Prison will sometimes be the right outcome for certain unfortunately think the state of the prison is just the norm, and types of offences and offenders. We need to ensure that are teaching the new staff the wrong way to deal with situations it is safe and viable for everyone within it and that it and making some very dangerous decisions”. delivers the outcome we want it to achieve, with people That problem is compounded by the fact that staff serving their sentences, coming out of prison and not retention is challenging. Last year, 38% of those who reoffending. Overcrowding, under-resourcing and lack left the workforce in England and Wales had served in of training and development for those on the frontline the Prison Service for less than one year; the figure in of our prisons make that objective far more difficult to 2010 was just 7%. Things have totally deteriorated, achieve, and that fails us all as a society. That is now arguably to crisis levels. If the service cannot retain more important than ever. The coronavirus pandemic staff, the staff cannot gain the skills and experience to that Members have referred to means we are entering a deal with and support the complex needs of many in crisis that will have an increased impact on the health our prison or justice systems. That results in a huge and wellbeing of both prisoners and staff. It is vital that burden on staff’s mental health. We must remember the Government listen and take swift and decisive mitigating that health means mental as well as physical health. If action. we believe that both are equally important, we must demonstrate that by giving the support required. 10.5 am The largest cause of sickness absence in the prison Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. service is stress. In 2018-19, the Scottish Prison Service Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) for setting lost more than 14,000 days due to stress-related absence, the scene so expertly. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. an increase of 32% on the previous year. Just as we are Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain). trying to create workplaces that conform to physical Her contribution is based on the point of view of a health and safety standards, we must ensure that we police officer and her interaction with prison officers create mentally healthy workplaces. Another member over the years. I want to add my support to what was set of prison staff said: out by the hon. Member for East Lothian. The Minister 323WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 324WH

[Jim Shannon] Can the Minister explain why frontline prison officers’ resignations have soared to 9%? What is being done to knows I have every confidence in him and I look forward address that? In January, four prison officers and a to his response to the issues we have brought to his nurse were hospitalised after a terrorist attack by two attention. prisoners. Again, what has been done to assure those The hon. Member for East Lothian referred to “The prison officers that they will be safe and receive the Shawshank Redemption”and “12 Angry Men”as examples protective body clothing they need, as well as the security of how we might form an opinion of the way in which they need? There are many examples—it would probably prison officers and the legal system work. My knowledge take until 10.30 am to read them all out, which would comes from those two films and also from the comedy not be fair to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor classic, “Porridge”, which the hon. Member for Henley Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts). I will not do that, (John Howell) referred to. That series is more about but there are lots of other things that we could put on mischief than badness, perhaps because of Ronnie Barker, paper. and is a gentle way of looking at the Prison Service. If Let me be very clear: if an officer is at fault, there only it was like that, but it is not. It is a matter of must be an investigation. There should be no potential concern in every corner of the United Kingdom. for abuse, but neither can we continue to have staff I am sure we were all dismayed to read the November feeling that they are fighting a losing battle in keeping article in The Daily Telegraph, which outlined the situation the peace and winning the fight against bullying and that prison staff currently find themselves in. The drugs,which are rampant in our prisons.In my constituency background information that we have today, including of Strangford, there are many people—especially the that from the Library, indicates the same thing. The young—who go to prison not being drug dependent but article stated: come out drug dependent. We have to ask ourselves why “Prison officers are being assaulted almost 30 times a day as that is happening. Every month at justice questions, violence, self harm and suicides in jails hit a record high, Ministry right hon. and hon. Members ask about the availability of Justice figures show. The number of assaults on staff rose by of drugs in prisons. Again, it is something that has to be 10 per cent in a year to pass 10,000 for the first time since records addressed. began more than a decade ago in June 2009. More than 1,000 of I accept that we need to rehabilitate prisoners—it is these were serious assaults, up seven per cent on the previous year.” right that we should—but we also need to have control of prisons in the hands of the Prison Service, the There is clearly an issue to address within the Prison governor and the officers. People’s concerns include the Service. Those figures are reflected in Northern Ireland, fact that when which the Minister does not have responsibility for, although perhaps not to the same extent. The article “a prisoner assaults staff or other prisoners, they are back on the wing 20 minutes later.” continued: One prison officer said: “There were also more than 24,000 prisoner on prisoner assaults in the year to June, equivalent to 66 a day and a three per cent rise “Prisons are in a state of emergency!” on the previous 12 months. That is also the highest for a decade. It The following is from a male public sector prison officer: means the overall number of assaults is closing in on 100 a day “I have been in the Service for over 20 years and I have never with 93 every 24 hours—another record high.” felt scared to come to work—but now I fear for myself and my That is a record high we do not wish to record because colleagues.” we want to record the good things and how we are If that is how prison officers feel, we have to address improving them. those issues as soon as possible. “Of these, 3,928 were serious assaults, of which 2,984 were prisoner on prisoner attacks.” We wonder why the health of inmates is so at risk. I believe the reticence of prison staff about their safety There is clearly an issue that must be resolved. I have and mental health means that they are unwilling to spoken to friends of mine who work or have worked in intercede when they see signs of bullying and abuse of the Prison Service. I am in regular contact with prison drugs. Some of the people who go to prison are very officers in my constituency, some of whom are retired. vulnerable. They find themselves subjected to peer pressure We are losing good men and women who get to the end and surrounded by people who have stronger personalities of themselves due to the abuse that they suffer, followed and characters, and they may find themselves slipping by allegations and the feeling of a lack of support. into lawlessness and criminality inside the prison and There have been record high resignation rates among then outside.It is really important that we have rehabilitation prison officers. They are treated abysmally not only by and help those people to get out the other side and to the prisoners they interact with every day, but by the try to live a better life afterwards. Ministry of Justice. There is a fear of stepping into We are harming our inmates by preventing officers situations and getting into more trouble, which is what from doing their job. A lot of this is due to the lack of we must address. Prison officers need protection. They adequate numbers on prison floors. It is clear that an need confidence in the system, the governors and the adequate number of staff is essential in order to provide prisons, and they need to feel confident that our Minister strength in numbers, and to serve as witnesses to any and our Government will support and stand by them. allegations. The Justice Unions Parliamentary Group Prison staff must be able to use the force that has been has provided some papers and made three deemed appropriate and know that they will have support recommendations, which I will read out. The first is: if an inmate makes a complaint. Too many officers “Adopt the new Safe Inside Prisons Charter developed by nine complain to me about being left “hung out to dry” and national trade unions representing the majority of prison staff, then carrying the stigma after they have been cleared. and move to a tripartite system to tackle prison workplace The officers and also the educators, nurses and cleaners violence involving close collaboration between unions, employers all have the absolute right to be safe and secure. and the Health & Safety Executive.” 325WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 326WH

The second is: If the targets against which prison management is “Launch a national prison violence reduction strategy as a answerable are producing such results—effectively creating matter of urgency, fully resourced and in partnership with staff an environment in which violence against staff is ignored— unions—including action to retain prison officers, who are currently those targets or contractual requirements must be changed resigning at record-high rates.” —they are otherwise unfit for purpose. Raising the The third is: priority of staff safety will require a culture of change “Fully abide by the 1974 Health and Safety at Work Act and at all levels. The regular use of body-worn cameras, for take all reasonably practicable steps to ensure the health, safety example, would aid in the collection of evidence. To and welfare of all workers in prisons, including those not directly bring about their intended effect, challenge, support employed by HMPPS.” and intervention plans need to be rigorous, sufficiently We must invest in our staff in order to improve prison challenging for violent prisoners and supportive enough facilities. I look to the Minister, as I always do, because of prisoners who are victims of violence. I know he is aware of the situation and wishes to reply There must be a record of every act of violence responsibly and positively. We need to understand how against any member of staff employed in a prison, as this can be done UK-wide, not just in English and well as meaningful consequences for prisoners who Welsh prisons. Has the Minister had any discussions commit such violence. Those consequences could come with the Northern Ireland Justice Minister, Naomi Long? through judicial process or internal prison procedures. If not, I ask him to contact her. I know that our new Attacks on staff can no longer be excused as collateral Justice Minister has indicated her desire to improve the damage in the hidden theatre of violence staged behind mental health of inmates, and I ask the Minister to high walls across England and Wales. liaise with her in a UK-wide effort to improve working HMP Berwyn is the newest facility in the prison conditions and the health and safety of staff, as well as estate, having opened three years ago, and the second that of inmates. I very much look forward to hearing largest prison in Europe, with capacity for 2,100 prisoners what the Minister has to say. —there are about 1,800 there at present. I will read from the exit interview of a member of staff who left last 10.14 am month after working there for just over two years—the attrition rate is between 10% and 14%. I will try to be as Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Diolch brief as possible, and will leave out the sections that I yn fawr iawn, Mr Robertson; it is an honour to serve could not corroborate with others—I have checked under your chairmanship. I highly congratulate the what I am about to read out. He said: hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) on “Most importantly the staff and friends who I have worked stepping in to lead the debate. I rise as co-chair of the alongside have made the job for me. They are the reason us staff justice unions parliamentary group, and I should also come in every day, and I will always thank the place for letting me mention the Joint Unions in Prisons Alliance and its meet these people. I have made friends for life and also met a “Safe Inside Prisons” charter. I thank all staff in prisons. partner within the service, who is fantastic and has been brilliant They are, in many cases, by the nature of their work, and supportive, especially after I was recently assaulted on Christmas day at HMP Berwyn. invisible and unheard heroes, which we should bear in mind. I feel at HMP Berwyn everything always seems to be about the prisoners. So long as the regime is running, nothing else matters. Staff in prisons will be very aware of the criteria Band 3 officers are not listened to, staff safety is not a priority against which they are held to account by Her Majesty’s and is constantly compromised and undermined. Recently I was inspectorate of prisons. If safety is one of the four assaulted with hot water on 25/12/2019 on Alwen B Uppers by a healthy prison tests at inspection, surely health and prisoner. This has been the final nail in the coffin for me. I was almost left blinded in my left eye and during my time trying to safety in prisons must be on every agenda all the time. recover occupational health had been in touch at the start of Whether in the private or public estate—no matter who January with me and have offered support and a meeting on the employs the member of staff—safety is a priority. 25/02/2020, two months after the incident, by which point I will Safety of course means freedom from violence and have left HMP Berwyn, so this is no use whatsoever. from the threat of violence, and must apply equally to More importantly, I called North Wales Police in the new year everyone in the prison estate. It is therefore a matter of of 2020 to discover they had no record whatsoever that I had been surprise to me that inspection reports reference prisoner- assaulted or taken into A&E due to an assault, and I had to chase up the police, crime number, security and police liaison officers to on-prisoner violence specifically, while violence towards make sure it was reported correctly, and find that the prisoner was staff is much less of a priority. Yes, the purpose of a not taken to segregation immediately, and the paperwork that was prison inspection is to assess the experience of prisoners, meant to reach the police liaison officer was lying around on a but the very nature of the prison estate means that the desk somewhere. Surely this should not be the case when I myself health and safety of prison staff is intrinsically bound was blind in one eye, at this time recovering at home, feeling to the health and safety of prisoners. helpless.” To me, it is self-evident that a workplace that sets so I will move ahead. Talking about his own work, this low a priority for its staff’s welfare as to fail to record man said: every incident of violence against them will inevitably “I was always on time, I worked late, I tried to be proactive and also fail on the welfare of prisoners. The culture of fear I worked through lunch, yet some people would stroll in 20 minutes and reluctance around the reporting of violent incidents late (weekends and mornings), sit in the office, let prisoners get away with basic things…hide within the jail, but would never be needs to be challenged and radically changed. If present pulled up or even spoken to. I made myself ill giving my all to my priorities effectively reward under-reporting, every step unit. Yet you have people doing the bare minimum and getting must be taken to ensure that violence against all staff is away with it, and this used to drive me crazy. recorded and promptly acted on. Currently, the system Also we are trying to tackle drink and drugs as a priority appears to contain perverse incentives that actively within the jail, yet you clearly have staff taking drugs at weekends encourage under-reporting. and coming into work under the influence. Yet nothing is ever 327WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 328WH

[Liz Saville Roberts] Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members that we need to leave two minutes at the end said or done in regards to this. Also, staff who have been given of the debate for Mr MacAskill to wind up. criminal convictions during their employment have been allowed to stay in their jobs.” 10.24 am I will move ahead again to “evidence handling”, and Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I we must remember that this is a man who has been am pleased to participate in this important debate, and assaulted during his work: I share the concerns of the hon. Member for Easington “Evidence handling is poor. Nothing is ever bagged or tagged (Grahame Morris), who is unable to be here today. I correctly. Extra training, I feel, needs to be provided on this. I was thank my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian assaulted on Christmas day, yet my clothing was not taken from (Kenny MacAskill) for his insightful opening remarks me. This could have been vital evidence. We are always short on prison officer numbers yet we continue to take more prisoners in this debate, and I echo the gratitude that we all into the jail, and compromise staff safety, and try to make do, rightly have for our prison officers, as we have heard rather than lock wings down. We put people onto wings or on key across Westminster Hall today. working shift to unlock, then, when it comes to feeding, we are We have heard much about the kind of environment scraping around, looking for a third member of staff rather than that can prevail in prisons, where the most dangerous just shutting a wing down. members of society are incarcerated. Being a prison I am reluctant to complete this form, as many times we as officer is not a job for those of faint heart, but it can be officers speak up and nothing ever gets changed. I doubt this an extremely rewarding career, as was made clear to me form will even get the chance to see the number one governor or when I visited Greenock Prison last year. It is not in my senior management team or be looked at, due to negativity. But I constituency, but it houses some of my constituents, can with my hand on heart say I gave my all, 100% all the time… I wear my heart on my sleeve and I take pride in my work, and this and some of my constituents work there. Prison officers can be backed up by anyone you want to ask in the jail. Yet I will work in a difficult physical environment, with high walls make these points to try and help you retain staff, as I can assure and locked doors.The clientele can be extremely challenging, you many others are close to leaving and a high percentage of as we can all imagine. your prison officers (very good ones at that) are currently seeking The undercurrent of violence is something that prison employment elsewhere and will leave if things do not change.” officers just have to learn to cope with, but doing so The last few things that this man says are really every day at work must take a toll on mental health, and important: the impact on staff should not be underestimated. The people whom prison officers deal with have often been “I really want to see HMP Berwyn do well and be a good place to work, so I have therefore let it all out and given my honest convicted of the most heinous crimes. A violent way of opinions and hope these will be considered and taken into account. life is the way of life for many of the people prison I loved working with many people within HMP Berwyn, and you officers have to cope with. Those violent prisoners will have some great characters, team players and personalities.” not always be welcoming or obliging towards the prison rules and regulations that are disseminated to them by But those people need support. officers. Even those who enter prison for non-violent I have a few specific asks; some of them relate to offences can become violent when in prison, out of HMP Berwyn, but I think they are relevant to other sheer frustration—no one likes to be locked up, regardless prisons too. Can the Minister confirm whether an unused of the crime they have committed. The company that wing in Berwyn might be put into use as an isolation those people are required to keep must also have an ward to deal with the covid-19 crisis? If that is the case, impact. it could be of support to other prisons. Also, can he Prison officers live every day with the threat of assault confirm that all necessary personal protective equipment at the hands of seriously angry and violent prisoners. and training for staff is being provided? That should be recognised across the entire prison In these circumstances, and considering the size of estate of the United Kingdom. The prisons in Scotland the prison, can the Minister commit to reviewing the face challenges, as do prisons across the UK. Members merits of phasing out the use of double cells at Berwyn, have spoken about that in detail. My hon. Friend the and making it a single-cell prison, as I understand that Member for East Lothian, who opened the debate, is what is happening with the new private prisons that reminded us that prison officers are the forgotten service. are being developed? There is capacity, with the number We rely on them, but too often they are out of sight, of prisoners presently there; it will certainly be a lot through the nature of the job they do. They have to easier than when we go to full capacity. If this change master a variety of skills. They are not just guards. They on single cells could be made, it would facilitate many often have to take on such roles as psychiatric support aspects of the work for prison officers. or social worker, which they work hard to carry out but for which they are not properly trained, and certainly I have a question on covid-19; I do not know if it has not properly paid. All the time, as they carry out that been asked yet. We have had a request from the unions variety of roles, there is an undercurrent of violence. and from the teaching staff—staff who are not directly That is the nature of our prisons. No one, as my hon. employed staff working in prisons. Can the Minister Friend reminded us, should have to go to work and give an assurance that there will be no penalties by Her routinely fear assault; that cannot simply be viewed as Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service for non-delivery part of the job. If prison officers do not feel safe, they of teaching hours during education shutdown? cannot keep prisoners safe, and often many prisoners Finally, may I reiterate the call that the Minister’s do not feel safe. Department adopts the “Safe Inside Prisons” charter, in The hon. Member for Henley (John Howell) pointed the spirit of tripartite working between employers, unions out the need for prisons to be maintained in good and the Health and Safety Executive? Diolch yn fawr iawn. repair. The environment matters for the health and 329WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 330WH wellbeing of prison officers and prisoners. The hon. even if he were lucky enough to be ably assisted by his Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), 65-year old colleague? It is completely unacceptable, who has particular insight as a former police officer, and places the prison officer at unacceptable risk. Would reminded us of the importance of rehabilitation. A any Member present seriously be happy with their greater emphasis on that would, in turn, create a better 66-year-old father being placed in such danger because climate, ethos and atmosphere for prison staff and he was not permitted to retire? prisoners. The mental health of prison staff requires I suspect, based on other debates, that the Minister more attention. I do not think there is any doubt about will tell us, when he gets to his feet, that people are that. living longer. To that, I have to say, in this context: blah, The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) blah, blah. What I mean by that, in case there is any talked about the challenge to prison officers from the confusion, is that it is just noise. I does not answer the rate of suicide in prison. Surely that has an additional question about ages. For the UK Government to tell impact on the mental wellbeing of prison staff, in prison officers that, despite decades of dedicated service, addition to all the other challenges they face. We all they must continue to work until they are 68 years old, know that many people in prison suffer from mental knowing that that will directly place those older officers health challenges that are not supported to the extent in danger, and potentially in situations for which they they should be. Prison officers are left to pick up the are physically unable to cope because of their advanced pieces, which has an undoubted impact on their own years, is negligent and not something that anyone present mental health. It is incredibly difficult, in the kind of would want for their father or any other relative, because work that prison officers do, to leave the job at the it is too dangerous. prison gates at the end of a shift. If it is not advisable, desirable or safe for our relatives, The challenge of drugs in prison is an additional or any of our loved ones, to work in such conditions at complication for prison officers. I do not understand, such an advanced age, it is simply not good enough for given that if anyone tries to bring the smallest amount the prison officers in our communities who go to work of drugs through an airport they are caught at security, each day. They are part of the emergency services, but how it is that somehow we cannot seem to keep drugs they are not treated as such when it comes to retirement out of prisons. That is a puzzle that I have real difficulty age, and apparently nobody can explain why that is in reconciling in my mind. The right hon. Member for the case. Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts)—I apologise Nobody can overestimate the impact that raising the for my pronunciation—pointed out that we cannot retirement age to 68 is having on the morale of our separate the mental health of prison officers from that prison officers. They feel undervalued, overlooked and of prisoners. Given that they are in such close confines, forgotten about. When we consider how they are treated that seems a self-evident truth. The prison officer testimony relative to other emergency workers, those feelings are that she introduced was a powerful addition to the perfectly justified, and that has to be addressed. Otherwise, debate. We are all worried about the coronavirus. Given we will exacerbate all the problems in prisons that we the close confines in prisons, that virus must be an have heard about by haemorrhaging good prison officers, additional complication for prison officers, in seeking who will be a real loss to the service. My hon. Friend the to keep themselves, and the prisoners they serve, safe. Member for East Lothian pointed out that we are The criminal justice system and prisons are devolved losing valuable experience from the service that is not to the Scottish Parliament, but I will focus on an easy to replace. Who benefits from that? important health and safety issue for our prison staff that is reserved, and to which attention must be paid. A If as a society we believe that some people convicted number of Members have referred to this really important of terrible crimes need to be kept away from society for aspect of the debate. Increasing the retirement age of a period of time, then as part of that we should our prison officers to 68, given what we have heard automatically believe that those who supervise these about the difficulties of their job and the constant people need to be treated in a way that reflects the threat of violence that too many of them face—if not importance of the job they do, and should be given actual violence, which is also far too common a reality parity with other emergency workers when it comes to for our prison officers—is cruel and betrays a fundamental retirement. It is quite simple: we do not want people in misunderstanding of the important work that they do. prison, but sometimes people need to be incarcerated, and that being the case, we need to appreciate and value Prison officers, firefighters and police officers are all the important work of our prison officers. classified as emergency workers. The work that those groups do is essential to the smooth running of our It really is time for this Government to do the right society, and puts them in harm’s way. Why is it, then, thing and stop deliberately refusing to see how illogical that of those groups of emergency workers only prison the retirement age of 68 is for prison officers in practical officers are required to carry out their jobs well beyond terms. They must give prison officers the ultimate health the age of 60, until they are 68? Who on earth thinks and safety protection that they need after dedicating that is a good idea? their working lives to looking after those who the rest of We have talked about the health and safety of our society simply do not want to see. The UK Government prison officers. How can it not be as plain as the nose on need to deliver that parity, do the right and decent our face that a prison officer who is, say, 66 years old thing, and—to use a favourite phrase of the Prime should not deal with a young, fit, violent, angry prisoner Minister—just get it done. who is aged 25? At 25, that prisoner, as well as being young, fit, violent and angry, is at the peak of his 10.36 am physical fitness. From a health and safety point of view, Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): who on earth would think it acceptable for a 66-year-old It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, prison officer to supervise or instruct that young prisoner, Mr Robertson. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for 331WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 332WH

[Bambos Charalambous] The role of a prison officer is not an easy one, nor is it one that can be easily taught in the classroom, so they Easington (Grahame Morris) for having secured this urgently need training in order that they can gain experience. important debate, although he sadly cannot be here It is hard work, and it takes years of on-the-job training today, and the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny for new officers to learn their trade. The absence of MacAskill) for doing such an excellent job in taking it experienced officers to mentor and guide them makes it up in his absence. I also thank all the right hon. and even more of a challenge; the hon. Member for North hon. Members who have spoken for their excellent East Fife emphasised the fact that it is not just physically contributions to this debate; they have made some demanding, but demanding on mental health, and the outstanding points, which I will touch on in my remarks. need for more support for those officers. The Government Let us be in no doubt: our prisons are now more must not only redouble their recruitment efforts, but dangerous for prison officers, offenders and other staff put in place a real retention strategy to stop so many than they have ever been. Staff working in our prisons new and experienced officers leaving the service. now go to work fully expecting to be assaulted. In the The Government will inevitably try to lay the blame latest safety and custody statistics published by the on other factors, including the widespread proliferation MOJ, we find that there were over 10,000 assaults on of drugs, particularly new psychoactive substances, as a staff in the 12 months to December 2019, and close to cause for the rise in violence, and they have set out 1,000 serious assaults on staff over the same period. several measures by which they claim that they will be Those are dramatic increases on the 2010 figures—just able to curb the trade in and use of illegal substance under 3,000 assaults on staff and just under 300 serious behind bars. The hon. Members for Strangford (Jim assaults on staff—which demonstrates a marked decline Shannon) and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia in both health and safety in our prisons. Nobody should Gibson) both spoke about why drugs are so prevalent in ever have to be fearful of assault when they go to work our prison estate. every day, and it is shameful that this has become such a We support any efforts to clamp down on illegal drug common occurrence across the prison estate. use in prisons, which is putting prison officers’ and There is no doubt that this horrific decline of health offenders’ safety at risk, but we are clear that the and safety in prisons is due to the huge numbers of situation has been exacerbated by having insufficient prison officers who have left the Prison Service since the prison officers to keep the situation in check, and that Government took office. I particularly want to mention the flash technology that the Government seek to introduce the remarks of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor is no replacement for experienced prison officers. Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) about Berwyn jail, The Government must immediately seek to curb the which I have visited; it is a new jail that has huge space. I rate at which experienced officers are leaving the prison also visited Cardiff jail with her a year ago, which was system, and incentivise those who have left to return. A very different. Clearly, however, these issues are relevant first step in doing so, in partnership with trade unions no matter where a prison is, because as the hon. Lady representing staff in prisons, would be to sign up to the said so eloquently in her remarks, they are issues of “Safe Inside Prisons” charter that has been drawn up by culture and of support for staff. staff with first-hand experience of working in dangerous The 2018-19 annual report by Her Majesty’s chief conditions in prisons—all hon. Members in the debate inspector of prisons stated that although have noted the excellent work that the Joint Unions in Prisons Alliance has done on that. Doing so would “There had been efforts to recruit and train new prison officers…many prisons still lacked a fully experienced workforce.” show the prison workforce the respect they deserve for the work they do, and demonstrate that the Government That point has been made by all Members who have take their welfare seriously. contributed. Even the Ministry of Justice’sown permanent On the issue of the prison estate, the hon. Member secretary, Sir Richard Heaton, has said that the reduction for Henley (John Howell), who I have served with on in staff numbers the Justice Committee, made some excellent points about “has been detrimental to security, stability and good order in the need for leadership and more funding in the prison prisons”. estate, and also the need for purposeful activity. Those Since 2010, the Prison Service has lost close to 3,000 are absolutely essential points that need to be heard by band 3 to band 5 prison officers, who work in frontline the Minister about what needs to be done to ensure that roles on the wings and the balconies, and over 6,000 prisoners have things to do, but in a safe environment. prison officers in total. Between 2010 and 2015 alone, Under the previous prisons Minister, the Government the Government oversaw a situation in which the number promised a range of items of personal protective equipment, of band 3 to band 5 frontline staff fell by over a quarter. such as police-style rigid handcuffs and body-worn Although there have been some recent signs of positive cameras, but the roll-out of the equipment has been improvements, the latest statistics show that the overall woefully inadequate, with insufficient training provided number of officers is once again falling, demonstrating to officers in their use and many cases where the equipment that the Government have reached the peak of what just has not been provided to their prisons. A body-worn their existing recruitment strategy can deliver. The number camera would also provide little comfort to a prison of experienced officers who have left is particularly officer who has just been assaulted. They want and need concerning, with the proportion of officers who have the measures to stop such assaults happening in the first three or more years’ experience having fallen from almost place, which is why it is so important to have sufficient 90% in 2010 to just over 50% in 2019. These are points experienced prison officers in our prisons. that have already been made by the hon. Member for Finally,the Government must address the huge problems East Lothian and by the hon. Member for North East that they have created for themselves by raising the Fife (Wendy Chamberlain). retirement age for prison officers to 68. That point was 333WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 334WH made forcefully by the hon. Members for East Lothian The debate has been genuinely excellent. One of the and for North Ayrshire and Arran, and rightly so. With points made early on was this business about “The such a physically demanding role, prison officers must Shawshank Redemption”—the extent to which in our be fully fit and sufficiently able to react in quickly constituency mailbags the conditions in prisons are not changing environments, as required by the fitness test necessarily the No. 1 priority. However, everyone in this that they must complete. The public expect nothing less House recognises that the state of our prisons is a from those keeping them safe. critically important aspect of a functioning and decent Yet the Government seem to believe, contrary to the society. I am grateful to all those who have taken the MOJ’s own admission, that prison officers are able to trouble on this most difficult day to make their points as carry out their demanding roles as they get older, ignoring they have. significant concerns over safety in the process. The I will add my own perspective briefly. A meeting with simple truth is that they cannot and they should not be a constituent that I will never forget was with an experienced expected to; 68 is too late as a retirement age for prison prison officer from Cheltenham. He had been seriously officers. The Government should now meet the POA injured by an inmate at HMP Bristol, and came to and other staff representatives to resolve the concerns speak to me about what had happened. What was so that prison officers have about retirement and their striking was that, despite that ordeal, he remained in safety in prisons as they get older, and not try to pin the post, undaunted, unbowed and utterly committed to his blame for the rise on staff. job. He demonstrated the finest values of the Prison With the growing spread of coronavirus across the Service, to which I pay tribute—not just with the usual country, there are also significant concerns for the platitudes about dedication, but acknowledging the values health of prison officers and prisoners, who are locked of courage, compassion, judgment and professionalism. up in a closely confined space in which viruses can He also demonstrated what everyone in the debate spread like wildfire if not effectively controlled. I know recognises as important: the determination to root out the Government published a statement on their what Winston Churchill referred to many years ago as preparedness for dealing with covid-19 in prisons last the Thursday, but I would be grateful if the Minister, in his “treasure in the heart of every man”. response, could set out what measures are in place to As the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran ensure a safe staff-to-prisoner ratio in prisons if prisoners (Patricia Gibson) said, being a prison officer can be a are hospitalised or forced to isolate, and how many rewarding career for that very reason—being able to prison officers and prisoners are currently isolated due turn lives around. to covid-19, including how many have tested positive. Perhaps the most important point that I have taken With prisons still operating normally as of last Friday, away from this debate, made by both Government and including allowing visitors, do the Government have Opposition Members, is that we need people like my any plans to change this? If so, by when? What are the constituent to stay in the Prison Service, because there contingency plans in place should a significant number can be few jobs in which experience is more important. of covid-19 cases emerge in prisons? We would also Those senior officers provide leadership to others and welcome regular updates from the Minister on the set the culture of a successful prison. Equally, as my number of prisoners, prison officers and other staff hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) said, who have isolated or tested positive for covid-19, and on those governors who have been in post will make the how the MOJ is responding to the situation. difference too. That is just one reason why this debate is For years, we have been warning repeatedly against so timely and important, and I am grateful to the hon. the savage cuts made to the Prison Service, and about Member for Easington for bringing it before the House. the effect that they would have, and have had, for prison officers forced to work in increasingly dangerous conditions. I will set the context not by way of excuse but as a We have called for the Government to implement a real fact that we have to address. The prison population is retention strategy for prison officers, to stop the exodus more volatile than it was 10 years ago. That is partly of experience from the Prison Service and to help down to drugs and partly down to various other social protect health and safety, but they have not listened. In symptoms, I am sure, but that population is more light of the testimony of prison officers and of the volatile. That is part of the context. challenges, abuse and danger they face that we have Let me turn, however, to the issue of covid-19, which heard about this morning, it is time they listened. the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous), rightly raised. Covid-19 is testing, and will test further, every part of 10.45 am our national life. Our prisons will not be immune from The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice that. The most careful thought and planning has gone (Alex Chalk): It is a pleasure to serve under your into preparing our prisons. That work does not emerge chairmanship, Mr Robertson. from a clear blue sky, but is built on existing and I thank the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny well-developed policies and procedures to manage outbreaks MacAskill) for leading this debate and for starting it in of infectious diseases. such a helpful and comprehensive way. I also thank the Prevention is of course better than cure, and basic hon. Member for Easington (Grahame Morris), in his hygiene practice has been rolled out in prisons, as one absence, for securing it. I entirely agree that he is doing might expect. For those infected, prisons are well prepared the right thing, as is the Minister for whom I am to take action whenever cases or suspected cases are standing in, my hon. and learned Friend the Member identified. Plans include isolating where necessary.Turning for South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy Frazer), who is to the point about HMP Berwyn made by the right hon. also self-isolating. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), 335WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 336WH

[Alex Chalk] Let me turn to the fair point that was made that existing safety measures are necessary to tackle a threat the issue of whether specific prison wings can be used is that exists, notwithstanding covid-19. There has been a matter,quite properly,for consultation with the governor. significant investment in increasing staff numbers. We That may be the appropriate thing to do, but it is not a recruited more than 4,000 additional full-time equivalent diktat from Whitehall. I am grateful to the right hon. prison officers between October 2016 and December Lady for raising the issue. The governor will need to be 2019. A fair point was made on pay. In July 2019, the looped into any such decision. MOJ accepted the Prison Service Pay Review Body’s recommendations in full. The pay award was worth at least 2.2% for all prison staff, and there was a targeted Liz Saville Roberts: I seek from the Minister a response 3% increase for band 3 prison officers on the frontline. to the concern locally that Berwyn will continue to fill. It is the second year in a row that we have announced Its population is currently about 1,800, so it is slightly above-inflation pay rises, over 2%. under capacity. It has been filled slowly, deliberately. At this time, it is even more important that there is not a However, pay is only part of it. I completely recognise rush to fill that prison, because it has the potential to do that conditions are critically important, too. How do we very good work in other ways. go about improving conditions so that experience is embedded in the Prison Service and those valuable officers will remain in place, providing the guidance, the Alex Chalk: I take that point and leave it where it lies. culture and the leadership that a successful prison needs? I thank the right hon. Lady for making it. The first point is about the key worker role. This There is a long-standing national partnership agreement critically important initiative allows staff dedicated time with the Department of Health and Social Care and to provide support to individual prisoners. That will Public Health England for healthcare services for prisoners. help us to deal with emerging threats and improve Under that agreement, people in prison custody who safety, and of course it is important for those individuals become unwell do, as hon. Members know, have the to feel that they are being listened to and their concerns benefit of on-site NHS healthcare services, which provide addressed. That helps them to feel valued, and of course the first-line assessment and treatment response. helps the safety and stability of the prison. Key workers have a case load of about six prisoners. They have This second point is really important. We recognise weekly one-to-one sessions with their prisoners to build the importance of prisoners maintaining contact with constructive relationships and reduce levels of violence. their family during this difficult period. Public Health That has started in all 92 prisons in the male closed England supports our desire to maintain normal regimes estate, with 54 now delivering key work as part of their for as long as we can. If those cannot continue, well- business as usual. worked-up plans are in place to ensure that that continues by other means, to the fullest extent possible. My hon. Friend the Member for Henley made an excellent point about purposeful activity and gave the Keeping people informed is also essential. We are useful example of what is happening in Germany and, I issuing regular communications to staff and all the think, Denmark as well. That is exactly what we need to individuals in our care to explain the steps that we may be getting to, and I commend him for making that need to take to protect them from the virus, to minimise powerful point. anxiety and ensure maximum understanding and co-operation as the situation develops. That means The second point is serious offender intervention. We providing regular updates via National Prison Radio, also have a range of capabilities to manage the risk that issuing guidance to staff and governors, providing posters the most serious offenders pose in prison, including and so on. rehabilitative interventions and separation centres. Mental health was rightly raised. There are mental health facilities, Let me turn to the staff impact. Staff have been and but, as per the entirety of British society, mental health will be affected by this disease. We are moving swiftly to is a bigger issue now than it was in 2010. In fact, one of make additional staff available to establishments so that the bright lights, if I can use that expression, in the if current staff are unable to work because of infection, prison estate is the improving quality of mental health we can continue to run as normal a regime as possible. provision. That needs further strengthening, of course. Some contingency planning may include the need to The third point is about equipping prison officers. We ask staff to work in a different place and potentially do are committed to providing prison officers with the different tasks; that will be to ensure that we can maintain right support, training and tools. One essential matter is frontline operational delivery to protect the public and that we have started to roll out PAVA synthetic pepper robustly manage risks. In addition, as and when required, spray for use by prison officers, but we want to ensure operational staff currently working in headquarters will that PAVA defuses tensions, not creates them. All roads be redeployed to prisons to support the service to lead back to having established and experienced staff, maintain minimum staffing levels. May I take this because they will need to use their discretion in a opportunity to thank the unions, which are engaging sensible way to operate it. proactively and co-operatively in this national endeavour? We are hugely grateful for that support. Liz Saville Roberts: The association between PAVA The point was made about not penalising non-delivery and key workers is understandable, but when many staff of teaching hours. That seems to me eminently sensible. are away from duty and dependent on bringing staff in I hope that the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd on detached duty to another prison, prisons end up, I understands why I cannot commit to anything, but I am told, without that critical number of key workers—there take that point in the spirit in which it was intended and is a vicious circle and PAVA will not be able to be I hope that it will be given appropriate consideration. implemented. Will he commit his Department to looking 337WH Prison Staff: Health and Safety18 MARCH 2020 Prison Staff: Health and Safety 338WH at how PAVA can actually be brought into prisons? The being rolled out among police forces as well. There are association between key workers and PAVA at present is post-incident care teams, occupational health support, not working in all prisons. cognitive behavioural therapy, and so much more. The health and safety of our staff and those in our Alex Chalk: I will certainly look at that and escalate it care remains the top priority for the Ministry of Justice, to the right hon. Lady. and we are making significant efforts to ensure that the safety challenges in prisons continue to be addressed. Patricia Gibson: Time is slipping away. I appreciate Covid-19 presents a new set of challenges. We are all the Minister is saying about what the Government tackling them, informed by the best scientific evidence are doing to make prison officers feel more valued and available, alongside the existing health and safety pressures safe, but I must press him on the issue of pension age. A we are facing in our prisons. I take this opportunity to lot of forceful points have been made today and we have thank prison staff. They are being tested and they are little time left to address them. I ask him simply to say going to be tested. We value, admire and support them, whether he is sympathetic. and we are going to get through this. Alex Chalk: I absolutely take the point that the hon. Lady and others raised. The reality is that whether a 10.58 am prison officer is 68, 67 or 66, there will be challenging Kenny MacAskill: Thank you, Chair. It is a pleasure circumstances. If there is a 25 year-old prisoner and a to serve under your chairmanship again. 52 year-old officer, that will present real challenges. I do I want to thank everyone here, although time constrains not have a glib response for the hon. Lady, but I have me from thanking each hon. Member individually.There heard the matters that she has raised. To solve the issue has been a uniformity of purpose and a recognition that of our prisons we need to ensure that there are enough the virus is going to cause significant problems in the staff of the right level of experience to deal with these prison estate. It is but a microcosm of our wider society, challenges. That will be the most important point and, and hopefully this will be the catalyst to allow us to frankly, that will make more difference than whether address not just that particular issue, but the underlying somebody is 68 or 67. The reality is that we need problems. enough people of the right calibre and the right experience to manage volatile situations. I thank the hon. Member for Easington, who cannot Time is against me and I want to leave the hon. be here but who was the initiator of the debate. I repeat Member for East Lothian time to respond. I could talk my thanks to all who participated and to the Minister further about the Assaults on Emergency Workers for his response, which we take in the spirit in which it (Offences) Act 2018, which addresses the point that my was given. Once again, we thank all those who serve in hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia difficult times, because prison officers are an emergency Kearns), who is no longer in her place, raised. It means service. The challenges that everybody is facing are that those who assault emergency workers, including being faced by them in greater form and to a greater prison officers, feel the full force of the law. extent, because of the close proximity of those they work with. We are supporting the emotional and social wellbeing of staff, which is critically important, as well as protecting Question put and agreed to. them from violence. They have access to an occupational Resolved, health service. We are rolling out TRiM—trauma risk That this House has considered health and safety of prison management—that, as hon. Members will know, is staff. 339WH 18 MARCH 2020 Supermarkets’ Role in Tackling 340WH Childhood Obesity Supermarkets’ Role in Tackling Childhood found that 43% of all food and drink promotions Obesity situated in prominent places, such as entrances, checkouts, aisle ends and so on, were for sugary food and drink. Fruit and vegetables amounted to less than 1% of 11 am products promoted in high-profile locations. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I beg Diabetes UK reports that one in three children in to move, primary schools in England currently suffer from excess weight, increasing their risk of type 2 diabetes. Excess That this House has considered the role of supermarkets in tackling childhood obesity. weight or obesity accounts for up to 85% of someone’s overall risk of developing the condition. The Obesity It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Health Alliance makes a similar point: as well as causing Mr Robertson. Even as we struggle with the threat of type 2 diabetes, obesity can lead to cancer, heart and covid-19, I want to stress the importance of this debate, liver disease, and associated mental health problems. because childhood obesity is a subject whose importance cannot be overestimated. It is without doubt the time bomb that will increasingly affect the lives and wellbeing Jim Shannon: I think it is wise to reflect on diabetics. I declare an interest, as I have been a type 2 diabetic for of our society in the years ahead. We need clear steps to almost 15 years. There are 5 million diabetics in the address it. The report, “Healthy Families: The present United Kingdom, and the number is rising. It is one of and future role of the supermarket”, from the all-party the greatest health problems for future generations. parliamentary group on a fit and healthy childhood, Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there should be a sets out to contribute to the debate. It does not seek to campaign to address the issue across the whole United cast supermarkets as the villains of the piece; rather, it Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? recognises the influence that they have and how that influence can be used positively to help tackle health issues. Steve McCabe: I do, because we have to educate people who could avoid this condition about to how to Supermarkets have always occupied a special place in do so, not least because, as the Obesity Health Alliance our psyche. It was J. K. Galbraith who told us: points out, the annual cost of overweight and obesity-related “A person buying ordinary products in a supermarket is in ill health to the NHS is £6.1 billion. touch with his deepest emotions”, Like other organisations, Diabetes UK acknowledges and Jonathan Sacks who suggested: that products high in sugar are more likely to be promoted “AMartian would think that the English worship at supermarkets, through price promotions. It argues that we must have a not in churches.” rebalancing of price promotions to favour healthier Supermarkets are now widespread in many countries. products, which would make healthier options cheaper This country’s development trailed behind that of the and encourage people to buy such products. Polling USA. Indeed, by 1947 our self-service sector consisted conducted by Diabetes UK shows that 82% of adults of a mere 10 shops, but by 1969 supermarkets numbered favour front-of-pack traffic light labelling to help them about 3,500 and were well and truly established as part make a more informed choice. As Britain negotiates of our shopping experience. Store layout, daily promotions new trade arrangements following our EU exit, there is and sensory cues are all part of a formidable arsenal an obvious opportunity to ensure that the UK can designed to encourage customer purchases, often regardless introduce legislation to mandate such labelling. of the nutritional value of the product. Supermarkets are showing that they have the capacity Price promotion is a key element in the strategy. A to reach out to different segments of our society and to Cancer Research UK report in 2019 argued that three playan important social role.In 2014 Sainsbury’sintroduced in 10 food and drink purchases are determined by price. a disability-friendly trolley, designed in conjunction with The households making the greatest use of price promotion parents of disabled children. In 2018 Morrisons introduced bought more products high in fat, salt and sugar. The a quiet hours scheme, with dim lighting and music upper quartile of promotional purchasers are 43% more switched off to help parents with autistic children. likely to be overweight than the lower quartile, irrespective There is widespread agreement that the biggest driver of of income and age demographics. food poverty is lack of money, and that low-income families are therefore nudged by economic factors towards Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I suspect that the a diet characterised by highly processed, calorie-dependent hon. Gentleman shares my concern that supermarkets foods with less fibre and less vitamin and mineral place chocolates just in front of the tills, so that there is content. The consequent long-term health risks of such almost a wish to buy them as people make their purchases. a diet can include heart disease, type 2 diabetes and Does he feel that supermarkets should move them away cardiovascular illnesses. from the tills, so that there is not that temptation for Supermarkets are the sole largest food source for mothers and children as they come to pay for goods? families in England and could support disadvantaged households in making healthy choices. There are good Steve McCabe: I certainly agree. There is quite a lot examples in other countries. Denmark, Norway and of research to show that children, almost irrespective of Sweden use a keyhole label to facilitate healthy choices. their age, are influenced by that, and that the placement Since 2000 there has been a requirement in Finland for of products influences purchases. a “healthy heart choice” symbol to be displayed on over The Obesity Health Alliance’s 2018 report “Out of 11,000 products.In Israel, co-operatives sponsor community Place” focused on the prime locations in stores for physical activity, as does Sainsbury’s in this country—it selling particular goods—exactly the point that the hon. has helped raise over £186 million for sports equipment Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has just made. It through its Active Kids scheme. In the United States, 341WH Supermarkets’ Role in Tackling 18 MARCH 2020 Supermarkets’ Role in Tackling 342WH Childhood Obesity Childhood Obesity we have seen experiments with stocking healthier products our battle with covid-19, and I know that they, and at checkouts. In New York, 170 supermarkets participated particularly all their staff, in whatever capacity, are in a study that found that displaying low-calorie drinks doing all they can to keep shelves stocked, deliveries at eye level increased sales. In Australia, a study found going out and the nation fed. It is a complex job at any that healthy signs on shopping baskets influence purchases. time, so I thank them. In parallel, I encourage customers In New Zealand, supermarkets have co-operated on a and shoppers to be responsible, to purchase only what health star rating and on programmes to encourage they need and to think of others. Working together, I healthy eating. am confident that the supermarkets will ensure that Supermarkets have a major role to play in the drive to their supply chains remain robust and that shelves will improve the nation’s health, but their potential is as yet continue to be full. untapped. In order to support families to make healthier In its 15th report, “Healthy Families: The present choices, supermarkets must address the current retail and future role of the supermarket”, alongside the environment by ensuring that healthy foods are available previous reports to which the hon. Gentleman referred, and conveniently located in stores. Snacks are popular the APPG has provided a valuable contribution to the across all income groups but tend to comprise a higher ongoing debate on improving children’s health and proportion of all food consumed by those on lower reducing childhood obesity—I have a copy here, and I incomes. Major retailers could improve the availability very much enjoyed it as my bedtime reading last night. of higher-quality snacks to low-income families by He is right; with more than one in five children entering developing their own brand lines and diverting surplus primary school overweight or obese, rising to more than waste food towards the production of affordable, healthy one in three by the time they leave, it is right that we snacks. They could agree to place high-fat, salt and take bold action to improve the nation’s diet. There can sugar products alongside like items, rather than supporting be no doubting the key role, as he has said, that out-of-context promotions. Healthy products should be supermarkets and other retailers play in helping consumers in prime locations, such as the end of aisles, at eye level make healthier choices. I know that many supermarkets on shelves and at checkouts. and businesses get this. They know that their customers I acknowledge the good that is done. Tesco’s free fruit want a healthier offer and that it makes business sense. for kids and “helpful little swaps” are welcome, as is Although I am not familiar with the group that Sainsbury’s investment in reducing the cost of fruit and produced the report, I saw a recent report by ShareAction vegetables and its measures to end multi-buy promotions. that highlighted the importance of investors’ decisions However,we need supermarkets to agree that all customers in the sector and factors such as those highlighted by should have access to clear, accurate nutritional and the hon. Gentleman. With environmental, social and value-for-money information on all products. Fruit, governance considerations playing an ever more important vegetables and other healthy foods should be positioned role in investment decisions by big investors more broadly, in prominent places. Price discounts and multi-buy it is right that supermarkets recognise that this agenda promotions should be discouraged, or offered on healthy is good not only for their customers, but for their foods. business. I do not want the Government to bludgeon supermarkets; As the hon. Gentleman alluded to in various examples, I want supermarkets to be partners in this exercise. I many supermarkets have already taken the lead in the want the Government to provide more information, in UK and feature the voluntary front-of-pack nutrition the context of health and education campaigns, about labelling on their pre-packaged foods, helping consumers the psychology of shopping and the importance of lists make informed and healthier choices about the food and meal planning, but I also want the Government to they buy. The UK-wide voluntary front-of-pack traffic consider legislative measures on price and multi-buy light labelling scheme introduced in the summer of promotions. We can make a real difference here. I want 2013 is proving successful, but he makes a good point. supermarkets to use their influence to play their full It is important to ensure that UK labelling remains part in helping us tackle the problem of childhood effective for UK consumers. We will always be willing to obesity. consider a range of measures to build on the success of the current traffic light system to ensure that it keeps up 11.12 am to date and continues to be successful. It is right that people are informed when choosing what they eat and The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): It is a pleasure what they buy. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, we have seen congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly great work by supermarkets in a range of areas. I will Oak (Steve McCabe) on securing this important debate, add a few to the list. I hasten to add that if I miss any and on his work with the all-party parliamentary group out, it is not because of any conscious decision; I have on a fit and healthy childhood. I remember responding merely picked a few examples to illustrate the work that to him in one my first outings as a then Under-Secretary supermarkets do. For example, Aldi and Lidl—a point of State and finding myself, with a slight degree of he touched on—were the first retailers to introduce nervousness for my ministerial career, agreeing with healthier checkouts in 2015 when they removed all virtually everything he said. However, I am still here, confectionery and sweets from checkouts and replaced and it has not done me any harm. I fear that I may be in them with healthier options, including dried fruit, nuts agreement with a number of his points again today, but and water. I have seen that in Waitrose and other hopefully at no risk to my ministerial career. supermarket checkouts. It goes to the point made by the Before turning to the detail of the hon. Gentleman’s hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) about the points, I thank our supermarkets, particularly at this importance of what is in the physical environment as we important time. They are very much in the frontline of queue up at the checkout and the influence that can 343WH Supermarkets’ Role in Tackling 18 MARCH 2020 Supermarkets’ Role in Tackling 344WH Childhood Obesity Childhood Obesity [Edward Argar] the APPG will want to study the response carefully. They may well revert with their reflections on the adequacy have at the last minute, with young children saying, of the Government response and whether it goes as far “Mummy, Daddy, can I have that?” It is therefore as they would wish. Indeed, I encourage that; it is part important that supermarkets do their bit at least to of what the House and debate are for. gently steer people in the direction of healthier options. We want a fairer deal for everyone wherever they live Sainsbury’s has removed all multi-buy promotions on or shop, and whatever their background or financial food and replaced them with lower regular prices on situation. We want the healthy option to be an easier everyday items. Tesco has reformulated its entire soft option for everyone so that we can help all our children drinks portfolio—the first supermarket to do so—to be grow up healthier. Indeed, as we look towards the below the level for the soft drinks industry levy, and has future and the demands on our NHS and social care, we given away 100 million pieces of fruit to children in are always conscious of what changing demographic their free fruit for kids campaign. All supermarkets and demands might do in the future and what children and many larger retailers have restricted the sale of energy young people may be letting themselves in for by virtue drinks to children. In January, Aldi and Lidl announced of their diet or lack of exercise, which in future may that they will remove familiar figures from their own-label require longer-term care and have an impact not only cereal boxes. All of that is important and positive and on them but on the NHS and social care’s ability to should be welcomed. However,as the report acknowledges, meet those needs. It is right that, as well as ensuring that there are areas where supermarkets can go further, the social care and health system can meet those needs, including doing more to promote and market a healthier we do everything we can to prevent long-term conditions food and drink offer more broadly. coming about in the first place. As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, promotional marketing by price and store location can impact on the Steve McCabe: I have no desire to bludgeon food purchases that we all make. Some can increase the supermarkets, and I understand the Government’s desire amount of food and drink that people buy by around to work with them but, given the Minister’s point about 20%, which can lead to overconsumption of less healthy long-term health conditions, I was struck that Public products and can cost consumers more money in the Health England’s report showed how some supermarket’s long run. Obviously, parents want a healthier balance own food products—I will not name the supermarkets— of offers and deals, but they are not helped by the fact showed increases in sugar content. An increase was that most deals and offers are currently for unhealthier found over the period of the report in sweet confectionary, products. chocolate spreads and morning goods. While the Government are trying to persuade supermarkets, should I am conscious that none of us wants to be hectored they also consider fiscal measures as an incentive to and lectured about what to eat. I feel strongly that meet sugar reductions? people should have the right to choose freely for themselves and their families as they know best, but they need to do that on the basis of making an informed decision. Edward Argar: The hon. Gentleman gently tries to People need information to make the choices about tempt me into an area that is perhaps more properly the their and their children’s lives. It is not fair when all the remit of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the promotions in store are mostly for unhealthy food, so Exchequer. I do take the point behind what he says: we the balance of the promotions needs to shift towards need to use multiple means to encourage supermarkets— healthier options to make it easier to make healthier perhaps that is the best way to phrase it. Again, I choices when shopping. encourage him and the all-party parliamentary group to wait for the consultation response and beyond that to To respond to the point made by the hon. Member engage fully. I am sure that he will. We may well find for Strangford (Jim Shannon), we hear the frustration ourselves here in a few months’ time—or when the of parents about what could be called pester power, report is published—for another debate in the light of particularly when queuing at checkouts. It can be hard the Government’s response. to say no, so it is important that supermarkets do what they can to help parents in that situation. Again, rebalancing I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that we will promotions in prominent locations such as tills and need supermarkets to continue their good work, alongside shop entrances towards healthier options can help reduce the out-of-home sector, health professionals, schools, excess calorie consumption and contribute to reductions local authorities, families and individuals, who all play in childhood obesity in the long term. Many supermarkets an important role. We must also be willing to encourage are doing so, and I commend them for that, but there is supermarkets, building on their good work to date, to more to do. I encourage supermarkets to continue down be ambitious and go that step further. We all have a role that path. to play in what we eat, keeping ourselves healthy and doing the right thing by our long-term health. It is All of that is why in the second chapter of our important that supermarkets play their role, and it is childhood obesity plan we committed to consult on our important that all of us do as well. intention to restrict promotions on products high in fat, sugar or salt by location and price in businesses that sell Question put and agreed to. food and drink. The consultation closed last year and we will set out our response as soon as we can. I know 11.24 am that both hon. Members who spoke in the debate and Sitting suspended. 345WH 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 346WH Framework and the Green Belt Greater Manchester Spatial Framework Greater Manchester? Otherwise, it will be difficult for and the Green Belt us to build the houses we need in the places where they could be constructed.

James Daly: I am sure the Minister will comment on [CAROLINE NOKES in the Chair] the hon. Lady’s intervention when rounding up. Given the drive to regenerate our town centres—through 2.30 pm building beautiful, affordable homes more densely, in part—it is clear that the green belt in towns such as James Daly (Bury North) (Con): I beg to move, Bury is being sacrificed unnecessarily.The local environment That this House has considered Greater Manchester spatial of the residents of Tottington and Walshaw, and in the framework and the green belt. vicinity of Elton reservoir, is being decimated because I am here on behalf of all my constituents in Bury, the local council is a signatory of a planning document Ramsbottom and Tottington who believe that we should that is not fit for purpose. It has no plan to take do everything possible to protect the green belt. The advantage of the funding opportunities provided by Greater Manchester spatial framework is described this Government to reclaim and build truly affordable as GM’s houses on brownfield sites. “Plan for Homes, Jobs, and the Environment…to deliver the homes people need up until 2037.” Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): I appreciate the The Greater Manchester Combined Authority website support given by the Government for the development comments: on brownfield sites, but does my hon. Friend share my “This plan is about providing the right homes, in the right concern that the plan, the GMSF mark 2, was only to places, for people across our city region. It’s about creating jobs be published for public consultation and public challenge and improving infrastructure to ensure the future prosperity of after the local elections? People would not have been Greater Manchester.” able to judge councillors, local authorities and the Mayor In my view, however, talking specifically about my on what they are proposing. Even though we want local home town of Bury, the GMSF does not deliver that. democracy, this is hardly a good example of it. Instead, it is a charter to build unaffordable homes in the wrong place, without ensuring that the necessary James Daly: My hon. Friend speaks powerfully, and I infrastructure will be in place to support such large-scale agree with every point he made. construction. Furthermore,the plan ensures the destruction One of the great faults of the GMSF is that it does of large areas of green belt unnecessarily and the devastation not require local authorities to be proactive or innovative of important wildlife habitats. It is also a guarantee of in their planning policy. Instead, it allows them to go for congestion on our roads, which will increase along with the easy option of allowing developers to build three, air pollution. four and five-bedroom houses all over the green belt— This debate presents an opportunity for Members, houses that will be totally unaffordable to the vast specifically from Greater Manchester, to tell the Mayor majority of my constituents. and the leaders of the 10 metropolitan authorities that the draft GMSF is unacceptable. More must be done to Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con): ensure that the green belt is protected within the framework My hon. Friend makes an interesting point about the of the plans recently announced by my right hon. nature of the housing being built. My local authority in Friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities Rochdale has signalled its intention to build more houses and Local Government to bring Britain’s planning system than required, and they will be mostly unaffordable. into the 21st century. Does he agree that the strategy should take account of Next month, the Government will launch a register housing need? of brownfield sites that will map out unused land, as part of plans to encourage councils to make the most of James Daly: I agree with every word of my hon. such land first, backed by £400 million to bring mostly Friend’s powerful point, which I am sure the Minister unused land back into use. Developers will be able to will address. demolish vacant commercial, industrial and residential The proposals to build on the green belt come despite buildings, and replace them with well-designed homes, the Government’s alterations to the national planning without the delay of a lengthy planning process. Crucially, policy framework, which have strengthened green belt £12 billion of investment is to be ploughed into building protections. Why are local authorities such as Bury more affordable homes. Council determined to build on the green belt rather than work innovatively to regenerate brownfield sites Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I congratulate and provide truly affordable homes, by which I mean the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, which is of houses and flats with a value of less than £100,000? I great importance to all our constituents. I apologise; I believe that they are simply taking the easy option. will have to leave early for another meeting at 3.30 pm. The defence to that charge by those who support the His point about brownfield sites is vital at New Carrington GMSF is that the Government are forcing them to in my constituency. It is a massively contaminated site, build a certain number of homes in line with national but one with great potential. Wewill need very substantial guidance, and that to do so they must encroach on the investment to undertake the necessary remediation. green belt in Bury and elsewhere. That question was put Will the hon. Gentleman join me in urging the to the Minister in a Westminster Hall debate the week Government to ensure that all the funds we need to before last, and has been put to Housing Ministers remediate those brownfield sites are made available to before him. Will the Minister confirm that councils are 347WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 348WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt [James Daly] green belt would undoubtedly be concreted over and no developer would be interested in building truly affordable not mandated to build definitively the number of homes homes on brownfield sites. required under 2014 population projection figures? Those Coming back to the point, we have to build homes for figures should be the starting point. Local authorities people who need them, at a price that is affordable, in should conduct their own assessment of the number of the right place. In the GMSF in respect of Bury, there homes that need to be built over the length of a local was virtually no comment regarding building affordable plan, and those homes should be affordable and in the flats in the town centres within my borough. That is one places that people need them. of many reasons why I believe the document is not fit for purpose. Chris Green: There is concern that as GMSF mark 1 was torn up, GMSF mark 2 will also be rejected—the Mayor of Greater Manchester should do that—so we Kate Green: Will the hon. Gentleman join me in will be in limbo. Local authorities should be respected asking the Minister—this is slightly tangential to the and valued, as should their determination of what their GMSF, but none the less pertinent—to look again at communities need. The planners and developers should permission in principle? That is also being used in my follow what the local authority wants. constituency by developers as a means to try to build on green belt where the planning and obligations that the developers are required to meet are much less rigorous, James Daly: My hon. Friend speaks very powerfully and both the public and the planning committee have on this issue and I agree with every word that he said. really no say in stopping such applications. Will he join I also bring to the Minister’s attention the fact that me in asking the Minister to look again at that particular 2016 Office for National Statistics population forecast regime and what it might mean for building on the figures revised down Bury’s population by 43%, and green belt? recently released 2018 provisional figures show a further fall of 13%. On the basis of recent population projections, James Daly: Again, I thank the hon. Lady; that it is a no homes would have to be built on the green belt in my very strong point, and I am sure the Minister will constituency. Will the Minister confirm whether the address it in his closing remarks. Government will review the use of projections published six years ago? As you can probably tell, Ms Noakes, I could talk on this subject at great length, but a number of other hon. Members wish to speak. I have been contacted by Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): numerous constituents, so in bringing my contribution I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the to an end I ask the Minister to comment on the following debate. The issue of “brownfield first” quite rightly points, which they raised. comes up all the time and, as an Opposition MP, I point out that, in fairness, that is the Government’s policy. First, does the Minister agree that housing occupancy Certainly, in my constituency and in the Borough of rates should be used to calculate how many houses we Tameside, almost every bit of brownfield land has been require in Bury and elsewhere? The average occupancy found for use, even if its viability is borderline. Is the rate, I believe, is 2.35 persons per home in Bury, against hon. Gentleman saying that the Government should the national average of 2.4. For example, that would find more money to make unviable sites viable, or is he mean 5,733 new homes needed within the metropolitan saying that we should build fewer homes in Bury,Tameside, borough of Bury,rather than the 9,500 currently indicated Greater Manchester and so on? Those are two different in the GMSF. That is taking into account the 2,000 ways to solve the problem, and I want to understand his current offset, and it would be the case even using 2014 approach. figures. Secondly, returning to a point that has already been James Daly: There are three questions in the hon. raised, will the “brownfield first” policy be made a legal Gentleman’s intervention. I have already commented requirement, which it has to be if it is to have any teeth? on the funding that the Government are making available How can local authorities access national funding to to assist local authorities in remediating brownfield assist in clearing toxic sites and making them financially sites—that will be very important. The question comes viable for development, which they have to be? Those down to housing need. It is the easiest thing in the world sites are the ones where we can develop truly affordable simply to say, “We need to build more houses,” but we homes. We must be aiming to build homes that are need a robust formula that allows each local authority innovative and green, but that are truly affordable for to build the number of houses that they need and where £40,000, £50,000 or £60,000. We must have a real vision they need them over the course of a local plan. I am for ensuring that we have the houses our populations making the point that using the most up-to-date population need. projections reduces the need to build on the green belt, Thirdly, what measures are the Government taking to and in my borough—I am sorry, I cannot comment in ensure that developers contribute to local public transport respect of the borough of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and infrastructure requirements? Fourthly, what measures and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds)—that would allow are the Government taking to ensure that there are no properties to be built on brownfield sites. further impacts from flooding as a direct consequence The question, though, is the “brownfield first” policy. of the construction of roads and housing? In my seat, it “Brownfield first”, again, is a statement, but there is is proposed to build on fields within Walshaw. Those nothing within the GMSF to force councils to build on are areas that flood, and have flooded in recent times. If the brownfield first. If the GMSF was in place, the we build there, that is only going to get worse. 349WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 350WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt Finally, the Government are committed to protecting, we are still looking at building on peat mosses that are restoring and expanding natural habitats. How can sites still in good condition when money is being allocated to in GM gain access to the Nature4Climate fund to restore ones that need to be improved. ensure the preservation of local mosslands and woodlands? The one thing that all our areas have is vociferous, Barbara Keeley: I absolutely agree. That is particularly committed and passionate community groups, who have relevant for Chat Moss because, for those who do not been at the forefront of the fight to protect the green know it, large parts of the moss were destroyed, or belt. I finish off by paying tribute to the Bury folk, nearly destroyed, by peat extraction. I fought that peat numbering in the thousands, who are passionate and extraction and we won on that issue, so we should not determined to protect their environment, to protect be talking about losing any more peat. Some wonderful their community and to do what they feel is best to projects are restoring those lands affected by peat extraction, ensure that we all have a positive future. but let us not go back and do that again. The land at Chat Moss is peatland, and its designation for development, interestingly, runs counter to certain policies. GM-S 2, on carbon and energy, encourages 2.44 pm “Increasing carbon sequestration through the restoration of peat-based habitats, woodland management and tree planting”. Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. GM-G 2, on developing a green infrastructure network, I congratulate the hon. Member for Bury North (James says we should Daly) on securing this important and timely debate. “Reduce carbon emissions, by sequestering and storing carbon, particularly in peat and trees”. According to the 2019 draft of the Greater Manchester spatial framework—GMSF—Salford is to accommodate GM-G 10, on seeking a net enhancement of biodiversity 16% of the overall housing requirement for the region. and geodiversity, states that we should be This allocation has risen compared with the 2016 draft, “Safeguarding, restoring and sustainably managing Greater and Salford’s overall housing requirement is now second Manchester’s most valuable soil resources, tackling soil degradation/ only to Manchester’s. The adoption of the GMSF in its erosion and recovering soil fertility, particularly to ensure protection current form would result in four sites being removed of peat-based soils and safeguard ‘best and most versatile’agricultural from the green belt in Salford—GM allocations 30, 31, land.” 32 and 33—in order to deliver 2,350 homes and commercial That last point is key, beyond the fact of the peatlands. space at Port Salford. All four green-belt sites allocated I have stated repeatedly that this land should be used for development in Salford lie within my constituency, in a sustainable way, but given the need for locally and my constituents have expressed a great deal of sourced food and fuel, which I think we will see much anger over plans in the GMSF to develop that green-belt more of in the coming months, it would be much more land. I share their concerns and strongly oppose any productive and efficient to use the land for agriculture. loss of green-belt land in my constituency. I will briefly The land has been recognised as grade 1 agricultural lay out why. land—“best and most versatile”, flexible, productive In July 2019, I presented a petition to the House and efficient, which can deliver food and non-food signed by more than 1,000 local people objecting to crops for future generations. That means that it is GM allocation 31 in Boothstown. Green-belt land is excellent-quality land with either no, or very minor, precious in Salford, as it provides the green lungs for an limitations for agricultural use. A range of agricultural urban city. It is vital that these green spaces are preserved and horticultural crops can be grown on this land, and in a city that has high levels of air pollution, low levels yields are very high and less variable than from land of of physical activity and poorer health outcomes. I have lower quality. objected to the two previous drafts of the GMSF because The mossland is also a tract of countryside of great Salford has enough brownfield sites to satisfy the housing value to those living in surrounding urban communities. need outlined in the revised GMSF without the In addition to its agricultural importance, it has great development of green-belt land, but today I will talk potential for informal recreation for those living in particularly about GM allocation 32—a proposal to Salford, and it is important for nature conservation, build 1,600 homes on green-belt land north of Irlam particularly for bird life. For Members seeking to walk station, in an area known locally as Chat Moss. and maintain social distancing, it is possible to really The 2016 draft of the GMSF recognised that get away from people when you are walking on Chat … Moss. The loss of this land would set a worrying “the site has significant depths of peat it still performs an precedent. The framework states that remaining areas important carbon storage function, and should be retained wherever possible.” of moss land would be protected and preserved, but local people are sceptical of that claim. However, the 2019 draft of the GMSF removed that observation. I believe strongly that our mosslands should The destruction of green-belt land is not the only be managed and restored, to ensure that their carbon thing drawing objections to the GM Allocation 32. sequestration potential is realised. We should not allow Irlam is a town with one main access road, the A57, pockets of this land to be lost for development. which connects Irlam to Eccles and the M60 in one direction, and Cadishead and the M6 in the other direction. It may no longer be true since I wrote this Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): speech, but traffic is at a standstill on many days—more Given the large sum of money that the Government so when there is an event at the AJ Bell stadium; there allocated in the Budget just last week for the protection may not be one of those for some time to come. If the and restoration of peat mosses, it is surely absurd that development goes ahead, there are real fears that it 351WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 352WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt [Barbara Keeley] The council has still not removed all these sites from the plans, however, which raises two issues: first, the could add at least 2,400 cars to what has been a gridlock deliverability of these sites and secondly, housing supply in this area for years. Although we encourage people to if these sites are allocated but not deliverable. Wigan leave their cars at home and use public transport, the Council’s approach towards the GMSF has generated Metrolink network does not get close to Irlam. Constituents an unworkable plan because of the lack of due diligence describe local train services as appalling and a daily in ensuring site availability, a lack of consultation with nightmare, and bus services have been severely cut. the affected landowners, and an unwillingness to It is important to view this alongside GM Allocation 33, compromise when this was highlighted. I hope that the Port Salford extension. That is one mile away on the measures can be put in place to ensure that this situation same A57 road leading in and out of Irlam, and that will does not arise again. in itself add hundreds of HGVs and transit vehicles to the local road network. In addition to the potential 2.54 pm 2,400 extra cars each day, I cannot see how all of this workstogethertocreateasustainableandgreenerenvironment Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): for those living in Irlam and the neighbouring town of I had not intended to make a speech—but if there is an Cadishead. I have objected strongly and repeatedly to opportunity, why pass it up? It is good to have this these aspects of the Greater Manchester spatial framework, debate with new colleagues who have come in as a result because I have real concerns about these proposals for of the election; obviously, that change of composition Salford. The framework earmarks substantial areas of is not entirely favourable to the Opposition side of the green-belt land for large development and commercial Chamber, but it is good to be having this discussion space. again. It makes sense to do this housing plan together. It is also essential that we have clarity from the Between the two speeches we have just heard, I could Government on the basic housing figures that Greater not help but notice that one of the attractions of a Manchester should be using to calculate the housing GMSF-style plan for boroughs such as Tameside, Oldham, need. Currently, there is no clear guidance on whether Bolton and Stockport is that it transfers that housing targets should be based on forecasts made by the Office allocation into, in the main, Manchester and Salford. If for National Statistics, or on Government forecasts. we are not to have the plan for Bury and we are not to Once that has been clarified, there needs to be an have the plan for Salford, that presumably means fewer explanation on whether local housing need target is a houses for Salford, but more for Bury. That has to be minimum number, a target that the city region must hit, acknowledged and admitted. or if that is a buffer within which we can fall. These two issues are vital to my constituents, who face losing four Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): Of course, we are precious areas of green belt. discussing the Greater Manchester spatial framework Like the hon. Member for Bury North (James Daly), in the round, which encompasses the 10 local authorities I pay tribute to local campaigners and people who that would be working with the Mayor of Greater persistently describe and value this wonderful piece of Manchester to put this in place. One problem has been land. The impact of extra traffic and air pollution, that where there are some pluses—for instance around which I hope I have outlined, together with the loss of common ground, which would allow movements between recreation space brought about by any new development the various areas—that is very much top-down driven, will be damaging to the people of Salford. This green-belt so we are waiting for the Labour Mayor of Greater land is cherished by our local communities. There would Manchester to tell us what we should have. I have be grave consequences if these four green-belt sites on been working with local residents, my constituents my constituency were released for development. and neighbourhood groups, including Woodford Neighbourhood Forum and Save Heald Green Green Belt, and they want to know what is going to be right 2.53 pm for their area. That depends on having the right figures, so we really do need guidance on those figures, and to James Grundy (Leigh) (Con): I have grave concerns bear in mind that we want a spatial framework or local about how my own local authority, Wigan Council, has plans that fit the needs of our local populations. conducted itself during the Greater Manchester spatial framework process. When the plan’s first draft was Jonathan Reynolds: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s announced, many local farmers and landowners were statement, and I agree with her. There have been huge surprised to find that their land was earmarked for problems with process, and I cannot easily see how we development. They had not put forward their land correct those, because the honest truth about the way during the “call for sites” process. They had not even we do housing allocation in this country is that we start been consulted on whether their land should have been with a piece of agricultural land. The minute we make included in these plans. that a piece of housing land, we increase its value When the landowners attended a public information tenfold, and that value does not stay in the public event to protest the lack of consultation, they were told sector: it goes to the private sector, despite the fact that initially that, should they refuse to sell, the council there has been no productive capacity increase. It is would rely on the use of compulsory purchase powers simply an administrative change that makes people very to obtain the land. Following a public backlash against wealthy, so how and when we release that information this approach, both the leader of Wigan Council and to prevent land speculation is clearly a massive issue. Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater Manchester, The hon. Lady asked about the figures, which are stated that they would not using compulsory purchase really what the debate has been about for the past few powers after all. years. To be honest, sometimes we have had clarification 353WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 354WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt from Ministers, but when the written version has come places such as Tameside or Stockport have a big impact through, it has been something completely different on commuters in my seat, particularly on the A6 or from what Conservative Back Benchers were told at the through Mottram to try to get on the M67. time. However, my understanding is this: the Government set a housing target figure for each borough. The hon. A big complaint has always been that we put in Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) said that local houses without the infrastructure to cope with them. To areas should do that, which would be a revolutionary praise the GMSF—slightly unusually—one good thing change in how the Government approach housing is the proposal for a Gamesley railway station that is allocation. I am not sure that is where this Government included in it. Will my constituency neighbour have are going, for the simple reason that if that system were words with his colleague, Andy Burnham, to see whether to exist, I cannot imagine that the Government’s housing he can throw his full support behind that station, and targets would get anywhere near fulfilled. Many parts will the Minister have words with the rail Minister of the country, particularly in the south-east, would just about getting a train station built in Gamesley? refuse to build any houses at all, so I cannot imagine a situation in which there is not national Government guidance. If that is going to happen, we would like to Jonathan Reynolds: It is great to see the hon. Member know that, because it would be revelatory. for High Peak (Robert Largan) here. To be frank, in Tameside we might say it is houses built in Derbyshire Once that housing target figure is assessed, it is that have put infrastructure burdens on to us, but the possible to do something like what we are trying to do fact that it is relevant to his constituency and his towns together in Greater Manchester: work out a different shows why this debate is so important. figure for each borough, based on re-organising and re-allocating some of that housing need around Greater We all agree on the crucial point about infrastructure Manchester. Once there is a figure for a borough, as we and about how housing, if it is not organised through a have for Tameside, we look at the housing land supply plan like the GMSF, will be developer-led and of a size and try to get everything we can into that, so as to avoid and scale that we would not necessarily want to see in touching the green belt. That is the Government’s policy: our constituencies. I often tease Conservative friends we cannot touch the green belt until we have as much of about how they believe the market should determine the brownfield land supply in as possible. lots of things, but apparently not, in this case, housing allocation. There are sites in my constituency that, to be honest, would require tens of millions of pounds to remediate, Development is a huge problem. The speculative but we got them in there because building on them is the aspect—often seen as something that does not meet right thing to do. We presume that central Government local needs and is not connected to local transport—is will come to help remediate those sites and make them the biggest problem. I could see it coming from the viable, but I am not sure that commitment will be minute I was first elected to Tameside Council. I was a infinite. I know the phrase “whatever it takes” is in Longdendale councillor on the border with High Peak. vogue right now, but there are surely limits to what the When I looked at housing policy, it was clear that we Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government were running out of brownfield land sites. In Hyde we will give Greater Manchester to remediate all those had built on all kinds of former employment sites, sites. That is the point at which we get to the green belt. which, again, was the right thing to do, but that cannot go on for ever. Mary Robinson: The hon. Gentleman is being very When we looked at what would inevitably happen in generous in giving way. One of our issues in Greater Tameside, we got to thinking about a garden village, Manchester is that these areas have been allocated. I where we would insist that, if were to allow housing to have allocations of green-belt housing of over 2,000 houses, be built, it would come with infrastructure investment so this is having a huge impact on my area, and people up front in schools and in transport—all the things that are fearful that the green belt is going to be built on. I reflect the only time this country has ever done housing have been pushing for “brownfield sites first”, and for a policy well, which is when the new towns were built register in Stockport that should be entirely about building after the war and then a few decades later. They were on those brownfield sites, but unfortunately, while those built in exchange for the establishment of the green belt. allocations are still in the Mayor’s plan, people feel we That was the deal. We built houses where the state and are going to have this housing there. society wanted them to be. Wedemanded the infrastructure that goes with them and we would protect the rest from speculative development, particularly in an age when Jonathan Reynolds: I completely agree, but it goes councils were incentivised to build houses because they back to the difficulties of the process. There are green-belt got rates comparatively greater than they do now for sites marked for allocation in my constituency that I the more houses that they allowed to be built. oppose; Apethorn Lane, effectively, is the land between Stockport and Tameside. I have nothing against people Control is the key issue. I cannot fathom rejecting the from Stockport, but I want to maintain that green-belt GMSF altogether because it would mean more houses barrier between us. We are close enough as it is. being built in places such as Bury. It would mean less control and our not working together. I cannot see the logic in that. Whether houses are built in High Peak or Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I am grateful to Stockport or anywhere else in Greater Manchester, they my constituency neighbour for giving way. Members will have an impact on my constituency, so we have to might look a little surprised, given that I do not represent start by saying, “Let us have a plan and work on it a Greater Manchester constituency. However, my together. If it is not acceptable in terms of infrastructure constituency is right on the border and homes built in or sites, we will work on it.” 355WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 356WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt [Jonathan Reynolds] —and, by the way, without a spatial framework the responsibility would fall on each of the 10 local authorities If we do nothing, certainly in Tameside, we cannot individually to create a new local plan, which would guarantee the five-year land supply, which, again, goes have a worse impact on most places, in terms of the back to the national planning policy framework that distribution of development, and probably run a greater determines much of how planning is developed. If we risk of a developers’ free-for-all if the plan was not in do not do that, developers will pick the sites and build place at the right time. It is in our collective interest to the things that we do not want. Wewill get no infrastructure try to find a way through. and no contribution to any of the things that we all My boss, my hon. Friend the Member for Denton want to see. If we go forward with this, I can understand and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), should have been here why there has to be the permission and consent of every today, but he is self-isolating. He has been clear from part of Greater Manchester, but the way it is sometimes the outset about the balance between making the mature talked about does not reflect the reality that there are response and planning ahead, because that is the right decisions to be made about housing. thing to do, and giving voice to constituents. There are If we want to do all the things that all of us say we proposals to extend the Bredbury Park industrial estate want to, it comes down to working on a plan together. into the Tame valley but he and local people have Even if the Government radically changed their policy worked out that that could be accommodated at Ashton on the numbers, I think they would still want the kind Moss. We have to find a different way of engaging the of approach that we are all talking about. I understand public, so that together we co-produce the future of why this has been such a powerful electoral issue for Greater Manchester. We cannot have people believing everyone, but we have to reflect the reality and not that the future is being done to them or that the future promise our constituents things that we cannot deliver. of the places and communities where they live and grew We will need new houses, we will need to work together, up, and in which they have a stake, is being decided and we will need infrastructure. That should be the without them. basis for going forward. My first submission went to 70 pages. I have a quite geeky interest in some of the issues—and they are 3.4 pm important. It was a call for the development of more Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): neighbourhood plans. I would love people in my It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, constituency to come together to co-produce the Ms Nokes. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bury development of their area. The evidence from across North (James Daly) on securing the debate. It might the country is that when local people have the task of seem like a very localised matter, but it will affect developing neighbourhood plans they come up with 2.5 million people in Greater Manchester, and it is a greater housing numbers than were originally proposed, huge issue for the Members of Parliament who represent because they know the infill sites that could be developed, them. It has been all-consuming for a few years now. I and they know the community better. However, of should probably declare my constituency position on course, for a geographical area as large as the one that this, which is that I do not support the spatial framework the spatial framework covers, it is not possible to do in its current form. The weight of responsibility for those things within the timescale that has been announced. housing development is not evenly spread, either across I remember asking a previous notMinister in this Greater Manchester or within boroughs, and the process Chamber whether the Government would give way and has led to mistrust. When I say that, I am just being allow us to develop a new population evidence base. If honest about the weight of feedback that I get from we are not allowed to use the most up-to-date, bespoke local people. evidence base for our population estimate, we will always The principle of a spatial framework is critical, and it provide more, because we will not believe the estimates was hard-wired into the Greater Manchester devolution are correct. I do not think that there is a single MP in deal: it was about Greater Manchester deciding for the Chamber who believes that the current population itself how it wanted to see its future. As to the idea that estimates proposed by the Government are anywhere after being given that responsibility and power Greater near the reality on the ground. They do not even take Manchester should suddenly say to Government, “Actually, into account the impact of Brexit and the new immigration we don’t want to play anymore on this, because it is just system, let alone other issues. There is also a general too difficult,” I am afraid that that is not a mature way belief that even the employment land evidence base is to do politics. We have to take responsibility for finding not robust enough—and that is before getting on to the a way through. Ultimately, when housing development type of employment and the nature of the employment need is identified, it will affect our constituents, and we structure that we want in Greater Manchester. Time have a responsibility to ensure that the next generation was, for a town such as Oldham, which was built on the will be provided for. We need to provide for the right mills, that tens of thousands of people came to work in type of housing in the right place in the future. There the palaces of industry—to take a rose-tinted view of are no easy answers in this situation, but I think there them. Now, square footage does not equal jobs. The may be an easier way to get where we want to go than rise of automation means that the huge factories and the journey we have taken so far. distribution centres that have been developed do not I have heard the politicisation of the issue, in terms of mean thousands of jobs. For a town such as Oldham, Greater Manchester having a Labour Mayor, among we want to be ambitious—realistic, yes—about the type other things, but it does not matter what party the of employment that we will get. Mayor represents. There is a legal responsibility, passed On infrastructure, as much as we talk about the need down by central Government, to produce a spatial for schools, GP practices, hospitals, transport and all framework covering the whole of Greater Manchester the rest, we should also talk about broadband and how 357WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 358WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt the future world of work will be. What type of connectivity lack in quality. As I said, powerful contributions have will people need? That is where Greater Manchester been made. I look forward to visiting Greater Manchester; deserves great credit, because it is trying to connect the my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North put in an 2040 transport plan to ensure that we bring together early bid for a visit, which I will make as soon as how our conurbation will develop, in terms of planning, circumstances allow. employment and physical development, and how people I am sure that all colleagues will understand that I will get to work and share the area. There is no doubt cannot make any comment on the contents or the that Greater Manchester cannot do that by itself. merits of the draft Greater Manchester spatial framework, Every Member of Parliament, regardless of which as that could be seen to prejudice the Secretary of party we stand for—although I am afraid the weight State’s position at a later point in the planning process. falls on the Government—has to accept that if our shared belief is that “brownfield first” is a policy that Sir Graham Brady: While the Minister cannot comment we should pursue, we have to accept that a cost comes on the merits of the GMSF, does he accept that it is with that. It cannot be done on the cheap. It is not just self-evident that it would be better for it to be based on about the cost of remediating a site that might be up-to-date household projections, rather than ones that polluted; there is an issue in towns such as mine, where are six years out of date? Very soon, some projections for the end values are so low that the gap is even tighter. We 2018 will be produced; can we assume that they will be need far more effort on that. the projections on which the future draft will be based? We also need a more radical plan to address the current housing stock, not just one that talks about Christopher Pincher: I congratulate my hon. Friend building new stuff but ignores the substandard housing on getting in so early with that question. A number of conditions that many people in Greater Manchester live hon. Members across the Chamber have raised the in. The housing market renewal programme that was question of housing projections. I can understand the cancelled in 2010 intended to remove a lot of substandard reasons why, but we believe that the standard method accommodation—terraced streets in Oldham that were remains consistent with delivering the homes our not fit for purpose—and replace them with decent communities need, and that means basing our guidance quality family homes. When that money was taken on the 2014 household projections. away, nothing followed it. We have to address the poor However, I would say two further things. The Secretary quality that exists today and improve the standard of State confirmed last week that he will look at reviewing across the board. Of course, we have to plan for the the formula for calculating the local housing need, so future, but that has to be done in partnership. that we encourage greater building in or near urban I genuinely hope that we will work together, not areas, and so that we can meet our target of 300,000 homes to pass the buck between Westminster and Greater built each year. Manchester, or between Conservative and Labour. The It is worth noting that the standard method is not community expects us to be mature, to grow up and to mandatory; in exceptional circumstances, an alternative work in partnership to find a solution. We need bespoke approach can be used, provided that that reflects the population data for Greater Manchester, in partnership current and future demographic trends and market with the Government and Greater Manchester, a more signals. If my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham ambitious fund for brownfield sites in Greater Manchester, and Sale West cares to check paragraph 60 of the so the sites that we identify can be brought to market NPPF, he will find reassurance in that paragraph. and developed in a reasonable timeframe, and far more ambition on the infrastructure investment that we need. Robert Largan: My hon. Friend the Member for I genuinely believe that if we work together, we can Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady) makes bring local people with us. But if local people continue an important point about housing projections, but it is to see debates such as this, where we pass the buck also a county lines issue. Does the Minister agree that it between different parties and from central Government is important not only that the GMSF has accurate to local government, I am afraid that will reflect badly population figures, but that it factors in houses being on us all. Let today mark the change that our communities built just outside Greater Manchester when doing the want, and let us begin to work together on it. figures? A large number of houses are being built in places such as Chapel Buxton, which puts a lot of 3.13 pm pressure on the A6. I have talked an awful lot to my next-door neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): I am Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg), who I am certain would be pleased to serve under your chairmanship for the first here today if he was not self-isolating right now, and time, Mrs Nokes. I should say Ms Nokes—I will get my those numbers also need to be taken into account by the coat. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for GMSF. We need a lot more joined-up thinking when it Bury North (James Daly) on securing this important comes to county lines. and topical debate, and all colleagues across the Chamber on their contributions. I was particularly struck by the Christopher Pincher: I certainly agree that local authorities doughty defence that my hon. Friend made of his should work together and should work collaboratively. constituents and their concerns. I was also struck, as Of course, they have a duty to co-operate, so I encourage were all hon. Members, by the, as ever, thoughtful local authorities in and around Greater Manchester to speech from the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde work collaboratively together. (Jonathan Reynolds). The debate may not be as full as it could have been Jim McMahon: On a point of clarification, it is not for a matter of this importance, but I think we all the case that the Government believe that 2014 is the understand why. We may lack in quantity, but we do not most appropriate evidence base; it is just that they did 359WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 360WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt [Jim McMahon] My hon. Friend also mentioned housing type as an issue, with large numbers of four or five-bedroomed not have faith in the more recent population data, homes. I draw his attention and that of the Mayor and because of some anomalies that came out of it. For the local authorities in Greater Manchester to the NPPF, instance, Cambridge showed an under-supply of housing which is very clear that local authorities need to identify as a result of the more recent population data. It is not homes of the right size, type and tenure, as necessary for the case that 2014 was the point to which we should go local people. That needs to be reflected in their planning because it was more accurate in that sense. It was a priorities, which I am sure is a point that my hon. mistrust of the more recent data. It makes complete Friend the Member for Bury North will make to the sense to suggest that we now go to the 2018 population Mayor and his local authority. data, and that, for me, would seem to be the most appropriate route. The idea that we use data that is now Jim McMahon: Will the Minister ensure that, when six years old does not make sense. we talk about flooding, we do not jump automatically to the issue of sites that historically were flood plains or Christopher Pincher: As I said, we believe it to be the have the potential to be at risk of flooding in future? We better method. The hon. Gentleman has already pointed must also consider the wider infrastructure. Much of out that the more recent analysis has thrown up some our existing sewerage infrastructure is Victorian, and anomalies, so we believe the 2014 figure to be the better was not built to take on the type of capacity that it is one, but the Secretary of State has said that he will now expected to with the developments that keep getting review the NPPF, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman added on to it. will watch this space. I would also like to highlight a number of Government Christopher Pincher: The hon. Gentleman is right priorities, which are reflected in our national policy, that infrastructure needs to be fit and proper for the such as our protections of the green belt. purposes to which it is put. We recognised that in the housing infrastructure fund made available to local Jonathan Reynolds: Before the Minister moves on to authorities around the country, and will do so in the Government policy and while he is still talking about HIF successor,the SHIF,the single housing infrastructure the household projections, much of the argument in fund. Greater Manchester has been based around what set of figures give us what set of outcomes. The ONS website A number of colleagues mentioned brownfield sites clearly states that its household projections should not in their contributions. In last year’s debate on the GMSF, be the basis for allocating housing numbers; they are an brownfield cropped up again and again. Last week’s analysis tool and, for example, do not take into account “Planning for the future” statement by my right hon. any policy objectives such as more affordable housing Friend the Secretary of State made it clear that we will or higher levels of economic growth. Will he confirm invest £400 million to use brownfield land more productively. that point, from a ministerial point of view? If we get to We want to work with ambitious Mayors—I suspect the position where we in Greater Manchester do not that Andy Burnham categorises himself as such—and want a more prosperous Greater Manchester—more with local authorities to regenerate local brownfield affordable housing—if we have a set of figures that land and to deliver the homes that their communities gives us no room to improve things for our constituents, need on land that is already developed. That built on that is not satisfactory either. We have to get a clear our previous work with mayoral areas, such as the £300 view of that from the Minister. million housing investment fund agreed with the devolution deal in 2014. That is entirely devolved to the combined Christopher Pincher: We want to ensure that we build authority, and can be put to good use. more appropriate homes. We know that we need those We will also provide local authorities with greater houses and the right sort of houses, with the right funding for infrastructure, ensuring that those who quality. Local need needs to be determined locally. The strive to build enough homes for their local communities starting point is the minimum, not the maximum figure. and make the most of brownfield land in urban areas The Secretary of State will talk about potential changes are able to access sufficient resources.In Greater Manchester to the NPPF in due course, so I encourage the hon. specifically and most recently,we announced £51.6 million Gentleman to make his further points in his own unique of forward funding to unlock more than 5,000 homes and eloquent way when the time comes. and funding for 10 marginal viability schemes worth In a moment, I will speak about our priorities on the £62.5 million, unlocking some 6,000 homes. green belt—support for prioritising brownfield development and our desire to see plans in place—but my hon. The Government have a number of other funds that Friend the Member for Bury North also mentioned can unlock tricky brownfield sites. They can support flooding as an issue of concern. As he knows, in the small builders and provide necessary infrastructure for Budget speech last week, the Chancellor announced development. They include the small sites fund, land £5.2 billion of investment in additional flood defences. assembly fund, land release fund, home building fund That will seek to ensure that communities around the and public sector land funding. I hope that addresses country know that future development will be safe from some of the points that the hon. Member for Stretford floods. We will assess whether existing protections in and Urmston made about her constituents in Carrington. the NPPF are enough, and we will consider options for I encourage colleagues of all political stripes and persuasions further reform in our wider ambitions for the planning to encourage the Mayor and their borough leaders to system. I hope that gives my hon. Friend and other ensure every opportunity is taken to get the funding for colleagues some reassurance. the communities that they want and need. 361WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 Greater Manchester Spatial 362WH Framework and the Green Belt Framework and the Green Belt The Government have placed their faith in the people law, plans are subject to a range of engagement and of Greater Manchester and their elected representatives consultation activities with communities and many other to shape their own future. We have backed that up organisations. The Government believe that such through the devolution of wide-ranging powers under consultation is a vital element of the plan-making process. the leadership of the elected Mayor, who in this case is I am aware from the comments made by colleagues our former colleague, Andy Burnham. It is his role to that Greater Manchester published feedback from last work collaboratively across Greater Manchester and year’s draft spatial framework public consultation in the political divide to provide leadership and a coherent October. The Mayor is proposing a further consultation vision of what is required. I am sure that colleagues this summer, before the plan is submitted for examination across the Chamber will want to play an important role by a planning inspector. Although we all accept that the in nudging the Mayor in what they believe is the right Mayor, local authorities and Members of Parliament direction for the GMSF. have significant and serious distractions now and for some time to come, I trust that the Mayor will move as Sir Graham Brady: The Minister is being generous in fast as he can and I hope that he will ensure that giving way. The Government do have some overarching consultation is meaningful and delivers a plan that all policy objectives, with one of them being, as I alluded Greater Manchester can support. I know that my hon. to earlier, the preservation and restoration of peat mosses, Friend the Member for Bury North and other colleagues and £640 million was announced at the Budget for that will work tirelessly in the interests of their constituents purpose. Does my right hon. Friend accept that it to ensure that the Mayor comes up with the best possible would be foolhardy to allocate huge sums of public plan. money for the restoration of some peat mosses while A benefit of strategic planning is that, by looking at allowing development at peat mosses in Carrington or housing need across a wider area, it can be met in areas Chat Moss? with greater brownfield capacity rather than in those with more green-belt land. That involves the sort of Christopher Pincher: I do not want to comment on co-operation and collaboration that colleagues have specific sites in the GMSF simply because that might mentioned. I hope the Mayor seeks to minimise green-belt prejudice my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s development while meeting housing needs in line with position later, but certainly local authorities need to national policy. give very careful regard to the areas in which they build. The Government fully recognise the need to plan for They should look at brownfield sites first, and there are and build more homes. A crucial first step is ensuring very careful controls, which I shall come on to, about that local authorities plan for the right number of building on the green belt. I hope that gives my hon. homes. I appreciate that sometimes that means that Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West communities have to make difficult choices about where (Sir Graham Brady) some more general reassurance, if homes should go. I believe that those decisions are for not on the specifics that he raised. local communities to make through the plan-making My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced process, so I encourage the Mayor to bring his amended that we will publish an ambitious planning White Paper plan forward so that the people of Greater Manchester in the spring, and we will take a fresh and sensible look can respond accordingly. I hope that, in doing so, he at planning rules to support local areas—especially pays due regard to the NPPF, the national design guide those that have urban areas where housing is most and the forthcoming national model design code, and needed—to plan. Our starting position is that we trust that he ensures that excellent quality homes are built, local planning authorities—Greater Manchester, in this and are appropriate to their surroundings and as beautiful case—in many parts of the country. We respect them, as possible—that should be baked in. and the groups of authorities that are working together Before I conclude, I congratulate my hon. Friend the to produce plans reflect the spirit of co-operation and Member for High Peak (Robert Largan)—the interloper joint working that we want to see and to which the hon. in this Greater Manchester debate—on his ingenuity in Member for Stalybridge and Hyde referred. shoehorning a transport request into his intervention. On the green belt, which I know concerns a number If he cares to write to me, I will forward his letter to the of colleagues, plans are subject to a rigorous examination Secretary of State for Transport, with what I hope will by the independent inspectors appointed by the Planning be a suitably helpful covering letter. Inspectorate. The examination includes testing their In conclusion, I appreciate that there are likely to be a consistency with national protections for the green belt. range of views about the GMSF. We have heard some Planning inspectors will assess plans and their soundness of them in the Chamber today. That is to be expected against the national planning policy framework and and it shows that people care passionately about what against any other material planning considerations before happens in their communities, which is a good thing. coming to their conclusions. That includes assessing the The current draft of the GMSF received an unprecedented plan for its consistency with our policies, which maintain number of consultation responses. So I say again, as strong protections for the green belt. I am sure he is watching this debate from his office, I The national planning policy framework, which was hope that the Mayor has listened to the feedback he has revised last year, sets a high bar for alterations to received in the consultation and the words that have green-belt boundaries. A local authority—or a collection been uttered in this Chamber, and that when he puts of local authorities in the case of the GMSF—can use forward an amended plan for consultation later this the plan to secure necessary alterations to its green belt, year, it reflects the feedback he has received. but only in exceptional circumstances. The planning There is still a chance to further refine the spatial inspector will check at examination that any changes to framework, its policies and proposals, over the coming green-belt boundaries are fully justified. As a matter of months. As part of that, we may see some of the 363WH Greater Manchester Spatial 18 MARCH 2020 364WH Framework and the Green Belt [Christopher Pincher] Organised Crime in Rural Areas important issues highlighted today by colleagues, including [SIR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North, considered. I hope the Mayor will not delay before he takes his next 4 pm steps, because, as a number of colleagues said, the Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): I beg to people of Manchester have been left in stasis for several move, years. It is time they had a plan that worked. I hope the That this House has considered organised crime in rural areas. Mayor demonstrates real leadership in the months ahead, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, as he did when he was a Cabinet member in Government. Sir David. I raise an extremely important issue for my I know that, based on the contributions that have been constituents, but one that I fear has not been taken made today, many hon. Members will help him along seriously enough by the Government in the past. To the way. many in the UK, when I speak of rural crime, they probably think of fly-tipping or, at a push, young 3.36 pm people joyriding farm equipment. At worst, “Midsomer James Daly: I thank all colleagues for their contributions Murders” springs to mind, which, while excellent TV and the Minister for commenting on the points that programming, offers a rather idyllic portrayal of crime have been raised. This is not a party political issue. I in rural areas. The settings are pristine, the criminals agree with most, if not all, of what Labour Members amateur, the stakes low, and the suspect is usually a said. The recent announcement by the Secretary of relative of the victim. State that he will review NPPF guidelines is good. We In fact, in much rural crime the stakes are not low for can all play into that, and a number of us in this our farmers, businesses and entrepreneurs. In the last Chamber will urge him to consider using the most year alone, rural crime has cost rural communities recent population projections from 2018 as a basis for £50 million, the highest amount since 2011. According local plans for housing need. to the latest figures from the National Police Chiefs’ Council, more than £39 million of insurance claims My final comment is that this is not simply a debate were made in 2016 because of crimes in rural areas. about housing projections, but about how we deliver That has a real, substantial and enduring human cost. truly affordable houses to the people who need them, in For many rural people, especially farmers, their homes the areas where they need them. The GMSF is a charter are their businesses, so when they are attacked, they feel to build very expensive houses on the green belt. At that their families, children and livelihoods are under present, there is no legal mechanism within the GMSF threat. They often live in highly isolated areas, on their to stop that happening. We can all unite to fight to own, where feeling under attack can cause long-term ensure that that does not happen and that people get the mental health issues. houses they deserve in our areas. A 2019 NFU Mutual report stated that one in four Question put and agreed to. NFU Mutual agents knew someone who had to change Resolved, the way they live or farm as a result of rural crime. That That this House has considered the Greater Manchester spatial is not surprising, given that £10 million-worth of farming framework and the green belt. equipment and vehicles were stolen in 2018. A farmer who loses a brand new John Deere tractor or combine 3.38 pm harvester will not only have high deductibles and massive Sitting suspended. up-front costs payable before insurance reimbursement, but could go months without being able to harvest their fields or till their land. These are not cheap vehicles; each piece of equipment is worth hundreds of thousands of pounds. Farmers can often only afford to buy second- hand equipment, let alone the costs of reinstalling security features or upgrading and repairing extensive fencing damage. Rural crime also has a long and intense effect on mentalhealth.Manyruralpeoplefeelparticularlyvulnerable because the emergency services can be a way off. Rurality means that they feel more alone, which is not good for mental health outcomes. That is why 81% of farmers under 40 consider mental health to be the biggest hidden issue that they face, according to a recent survey. When the costs of rural crime are this substantial, one can bet that it is not the work of amateur criminals—and the Government know that. The Crown Prosecution Service states that rural organised crime is often linked to organised crime groups, which target and exploit rural communities across a range of crime types, such as organised plant theft, livestock theft, burglaries targeting firearms,poaching and hare coursing. The NPCC states that: “Ongoing livestock theft is raising concerns that stock is being stolen for slaughter and processing outside regulated abattoirs before illegally entering the food chain. Thieves are cloning the 365WH Organised Crime in Rural Areas18 MARCH 2020 Organised Crime in Rural Areas 366WH identities of large, expensive tractors to make them easier to sell These are organised crime groups that will hurt them, and harder to detect. Small and older tractors are being targeted seek them out, and often come armed when they come by organised gangs for export to developing countries.” to steal from them. Why should farmers not feel under Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Lady siege? Rural crime is up by 37% in Leicestershire and give way? 74% in Kent, and in Buckinghamshire and Norfolk, crime has more than doubled. It is a crisis. Sir David Amess (in the Chair): Order. Does the hon. Gentleman have the permission of the mover of the motion and the Minister to intervene? Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): I speak as a Buckinghamshire Member representing Aylesbury and Jim Shannon: I do. I am pleased to have the opportunity its surrounding villages. Does my hon. Friend agree that to speak. I wanted to come down and support the hon. fly-tipping, which she mentioned at the beginning of Lady because rural crime is also a massive issue in my her speech, can be a very serious issue, because organised constituency, which is urban-cum-rural, and I live on a criminal gangs frequently bring virtually industrial amounts farm. I declare an interest as a member of the Ulster of waste from cities—often from London, in our case? Farmers’ Union. In my constituency, the police and the They dump it in the beautiful villages of the countryside, Ulster Farmers’ Union—in the hon. Lady’s constituency and it is then left to the local authorities in those areas it would be the National Farmers Union—are identifying to clean up, literally and figuratively. vehicles, trailers and machinery, and are therefore able to trace where they go. They have been very active and some of the stuff stolen in my constituency has ended Alicia Kearns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. To up in the Republic of Ireland. Has that been done in the me, fly-tipping is the absolute rejection of personal hon. Lady’s constituency? responsibility and everything the Conservatives stand for. It is insidious, it is persistent in our communities, Alicia Kearns: The hon. Gentleman raises a good and it is happening on an organised level. Companies point. In fact, many farmers are doing that, but the that do not want to pay to access waste disposal, or just organised crime teams behind these thefts—I will get to cannot be bothered, repeatedly drop waste at the same the organised crux of the issue—find these trackers and sites, leaving farmers to pick up the cost and councils to identification things and strip them off. That shows that try to deal with it. is not an opportunistic crime by people who are driving I know too many constituents who do not believe past and happen to see a highly expensive piece of kit that their real and justified concerns are being taken that they can nick. These are organised crime units and seriously. In particular, when farmers call the emergency they should be considered in the same way as groups services, they are often dismissed. One farmer, having involved in terrorism, county lines and child sexual found his flock of sheep significantly depleted, was exploitation. We can learn from how those things are asked by the 111 service, “Are you sure you actually handled. marked them all? Are you sure they haven’t just wandered One of my constituents found that his tractor, having off, or that you haven’t confused them with the other started the night in quiet Melton, managed to make it ones?” Another who had agricultural equipment stolen to the shores of Poland by next morning. These are not was told, “Are you sure your child hasn’t taken it for a the actions of small-scale groups but of organised crime spin?” At best, crimes in these areas are assumed to be units. There is also the example of the farmer who, the actions of petty criminals; at worst, farmers are having left his farm to go to the post office, found his assumed to be fools. This response not only insults the Land Rover being stripped for parts in broad daylight. intelligence of farmers and rural people, but completely His livestock trailer was also stolen, as was its replacement ignores the steps they take to keep them and their a couple of months later, because thieves lay in wait livestock safe. Farmers invest in vehicle immobilisers knowing that he would inevitably secure a new trailer. and the latest CCTV technology, drones, remote tracking, Large flocks are being raided, and a few years ago, five-lever mortice locks on buildings, alarms and keyless animals were being killed to harvest particular organs fobs. Farmers will keep fuel tanks in secure compounds for cuisine. We found over 900 sheep killed across a and use multiple padlocks to lock their equipment, but couple of counties in just a few months, with their this is still not enough. organs shipped abroad to feed particular international cuisines. As the NFU notes, these measures were adopted after the 2011 crime spree, because these criminals Criminal attacks on our farmers, whether on their operate together, they adapt, they change, they are livestock or their machinery, are targeted, professional armed, and they get better. Too often, it appears that and skilled. Given that our farmers and rural businesses the emergency services and those meant to keep us safe know that the people who seek to steal from them are do not keep up, which brings me to my real purpose hardened criminals, the NPCC also says: today: we need to expand our rural crime-fighting capacity “Being watched or ‘staked out’ is the biggest concern for across the country. That means investing not only in people living in the countryside”. services, but in strategies and training that will allow That is unacceptable. Farmers feel under attack and our Government and public services to better address businesses are losing millions every year. Before this the unique needs of rural communities when it comes to debate, I spoke to a representative of the National organised crime, because this is truly organised crime. Farmers Union who said: We can bring together experts working in the areas of “Country people feel that they are under siege.” counter-terrorism—which is my field—county lines and We have to take seriously the phraseology they are child sexual exploitation to understand how these groups using—“under siege”—because they do not feel that are operating. We can do some concerted research into these are local likely lads who are jumping on opportunities. how they operate, move together, and are able to bring 367WH Organised Crime in Rural Areas18 MARCH 2020 Organised Crime in Rural Areas 368WH

[Alicia Kearns] that there will be an impact. In Cambridgeshire a rural crime team was introduced, which travelled around and together local people and convince or blackmail them made sure that every farm and every village was visited. to give them the information they need to undertake It made an enormous difference and there was a reduction these crimes. in rural crime. First and foremost, I call today for a dedicated rural There should be more work to address the impact on crime unit and strategy, either within the National victims, and particularly the mental health of farmers, Crime Agency or the Home Office, or as a joint effort. which I raised earlier. Many groups have been calling It should incorporate the Plant and Agricultural National for improved services in that area, and those could Intelligence Unit in some form or another, because of include a dedicated mental health line for farmers. the data that it is able to bring to bear on this question. Organised rural crime has a huge negative impact on We also need to standardise policy approaches to rural my constituency and rural communities in every area of crime across the UK, because responses can be inconsistent the UK. However, as with all crime, we can beat it by and patchy. The UK Border Agency should also review working together, creating a strategy and responding to its role in tackling rural crime and what should be the needs of our constituents. We can stop the fear and considered organised crime. Given that much of the start taking their concerns seriously. I hope that the proceeds of crime can end up in mainland Europe—or, small but practical steps I have suggested may be feasible as we have heard, Ireland, which is obviously part of in the future, and I hope that the Minister will agree. Europe—we must ensure that large machinery stolen on a Monday does not end up on the continent on a Tuesday morning. I ask for 111 and 999 operators to 4.12 pm receive specific and improved training to ensure that The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse): complaints and reports of crime are taken seriously and It is a great pleasure to appear before you, Sir David, in acted on appropriately. That is a small step that could an oasis of rigour, discipline, etiquette and calm in these make a big difference to our rural communities. troubled times. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member In a similar vein, I hope that the Home Office and for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) on securing police will introduce better guidance for the relevant this debate on crime in rural areas. I know that she is services, so that investigations of the issues in question passionate about her area in particular and rural will be treated with the utmost seriousness. Police and communities in general, and puts their needs at the crime commissioners should have to take account of heart of everything she does. She has raised some rural crime specifically, and make sure that there is an interesting points this afternoon, which I will study. I element of rural crime strategy in their area. am obviously alarmed to hear about the incident in Staffordshire and, indeed, about fly-tipping, and those Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): Will my hon. Friend things are definitely of growing concern to rural give way? communities across the country. Many forms of crime, such as domestic violence, Sir David Amess (in the Chair): Order. I do not want modern slavery, fraud and theft, know no boundaries to be pompous or pedantic, but it is not in order for a and can be found in urban and rural areas alike. However, Member who was not here for the start of the debate to the Government recognise that certain forms of crime intervene. However, if the hon. Member for Rutland can, by their very nature, be a particular issue for those and Melton (Alicia Kearns) and the Minister agree, the who live and work in rural communities—crimes such hon. Lady may intervene. as hare coursing, livestock theft, fly-tipping and, of course, the theft of high-value agricultural machinery. Alicia Kearns: I am happy with that. That is very much reflected in the rural affairs strategy published by the National Police Chiefs Council in The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse): July 2018. It was developed following consultation with Go on, then. rural stakeholders and sets out operational and organisational policing priorities with respect to tackling Theo Clarke: I apologise, Sir David. My hon. Friend crimes that predominantly affect rural communities. makes an extremely important point about the resources The strategy is clear that tackling organised criminality we need. I recently visited a constituent after masked is key to police success in tackling rural crime. An intruders came to their farm with baseball bats. They example would be targeting gangs that use stolen farm were physically intimidated and they had no response vehicles or machinery to rip out ATMs from their from the police. Does my hon. Friend agree that police locations and then launder the cash through other services in rural areas should have more resources so activities. That is something I have seen in my constituency. that the necessary support is available? It is worth noting that the strategy emphasises the importance of forces developing close partnerships with Alicia Kearns: I could not agree more.There is something regional organised crime units, working across force I would like introduced in my area: we track police cars boundaries and increasing intelligence sharing between and know where they go and where those police spend stakeholders. That seems to me to be the right approach. their time, so why can we not do a review every six In addition, to support the police response, each months to see how often rural communities get genuine Crown Prosecution Service area has a Crown prosecutor visits from police cars? Having worked in the world of dedicated to wildlife,rural and heritage crime co-ordination, counter-terrorism, I recognise that police do not necessarily to ensure that the specialist knowledge needed to prosecute need to be on the beat or in the village to help those such offending is readily available. Moreover, the rural communities, but it is a matter of showing them Government are committed to providing all police forces 369WH Organised Crime in Rural Areas18 MARCH 2020 Organised Crime in Rural Areas 370WH in England and Wales with the resources they need to within 24 hours the machinery has gone to the Republic do their crucial work, in rural and urban areas alike. On of Ireland. Has there been an opportunity to discuss 22 January, we announced a police funding settlement with other police forces—An Garda Síochána, for of up to £15.2 billion for next year—an increase of up example—those criminal gangs that she referred to, to £1.1 billion compared with last year and the biggest which are operating and taking machinery mainland increase in funding for the policing system since 2010. here and are also going into the Republic of Ireland? As far as the workforce is concerned, we have committed Has that been done? to recruiting 20,000 new police officers over the next three years; £45 million has already been committed to Kit Malthouse: The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely start the recruitment process and a further £750 million important point, and he is quite right that our operations will be invested next year to enable forces across the at the border are critical to our success in tackling in country to recruit 6,000 additional officers by the end of particular the theft of machinery, which takes place all March 2021. Of that £750 million, £700 million will go too frequently. He will know that there is a specialist directly to police and crime commissioners. intelligence organisation, funded partly by the insurance industry, that looks for unexpected plant and machinery In addition, the Crown Prosecution Service is receiving movements across the border and tries to identify them an extra £85 million to ensure that criminal justice on behalf of finance companies. I should declare an system can support the work of those extra officers—and interest, as the founder and majority shareholder of a let us not forget the professionalism, dedication and plant and equipment finance company that has employed sacrifice shown by special constables in their work. the services of that intelligence organisation from time Special constables, along with a range of other volunteers to time. in policing, make a vital contribution to keeping our communities safe, and over the next few years I hope While the hon. Gentleman is right that there will be that their numbers will expand, not least because they movements across the border into Ireland, the market are incredibly useful in a rural community. Our ambition for plant is an international one, and left or right-hand surely should be for every village and town across the drive does not really matter when moving a backhoe country to have at least one constable or special constable loader. The movement of plant and, indeed, other resident in it; though they may not be in uniform, they contraband and stolen items across the border is key. are, of course, on duty 24 hours a day and therefore able He might be interested to know that just this week meet to enforce the law, should that be needed. I met the National Police Chiefs Council lead on acquisitive crime to talk specifically about some of those issues, not By your leave, Sir David, I will take the points that least ATM thefts in rural areas, the theft of plant and my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton equipment and, indeed, high-value cars, which we are has raised in this debate back to the Home Office and seeing more and more concealed inside containers and study them, but I hope to reassure everybody in the then shipped out of the country to other parts of the Chamber that rural crime is one of the areas that we are world. keen to make progress on. From my point of view, as a constituency MP who Jim Shannon: Will the Minister give way? represents 200 square miles of beautiful rolling chalk downland in Hampshire and who has in the past two or Kit Malthouse: It is traditional, I think, to give way to three weeks had meetings with members of the farming the hon. Gentleman, so therefore I will. community to talk about exactly this issue, we have been discussing something close to my heart and on Jim Shannon: I am very happy that the Minister has which I think we need to make progress. Hon. Members given way to me; I am not sure whether it is traditional have my undertaking that we will. or not, but it happens very often. In her introduction, Question put and agreed to. the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) gave an example of a tractor that within 24 hours was in 4.19 pm Poland. I have examples in my constituency where Sitting suspended. 371WH 18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 372WH

Bank Branch Closures It is therefore disappointing to see the modern incarnation of this once proud brand making life so much harder for those who work with paper notes, wielding the axe 4.27 pm so brutally against the communities that helped to build the bank. When the banks crashed in 2008, Lloyds Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): I beg to move, Banking Group was one of the major recipients of the That this House has considered bank branch closures. Government bail-out, to the tune of £20.3 billion and a It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, 43% public stake. Now, public shares are paid back, Sir David. I will start my comments with a bit of profits are high and big bonuses have made a bit of a nuancing. This debate was applied for and considered at comeback. In 2018, Lloyds unveiled a £4 billion pay-out a time before much of the current advice was put in to shareholders, statutory profit before tax was up 13% place encouraging many of those in our communities and £464.5 million was given out in bonuses. Payment who would be the natural users of a local bank branch protection insurance pay-outs took its toll last year, to stay at home. Many of my comments calling for with pre-tax profits down from £6 billion to a meagre banks to remain open are therefore very much inclined £4.4 billion, so chief executive António Horta-Osório towards the time when we get past the current situation took one for the team, pocketing only £4.7 million, and are returning to something of a more normal compared with £6.5 million the previous year. That is environment. meagre, and it must be difficult to survive on such limited earnings. The idea that the bank cannot afford The debate is clearly taking place against the backdrop to maintain the existing branch network is therefore of an unprecedented public health crisis and grim news. clearly nonsense. One positive I already see emerging from that, though, My particular concern, as the MP for Midlothian, is is the mobilisation of communities to protect the most the looming closure of the last bank in Loanhead. In vulnerable among them. I hear tales of shops delivering fact, it affects not just Loanhead; that bank represents groceries to older customers, of dog walkers dropping the only one in the communities of Loanhead, Bilston, off prescriptions and of people sending kind messages Roslin, Rosewell, Straiton and Damhead. Many of my to neighbours in isolation just to let them know that constituents beyond the town itself are clearly concerned they matter. These are all hugely important to keep our about how they will access banking. The decision is communities functioning and working together through staggering, with dire economic and social consequences challenging times. It would be good to see the banks for a town with a population of about 7,000 now, but exhibit that same sense of public spiritedness, show a set to rise rapidly with significant new housing sense of responsibility to the communities they serve developments. The Bank of Scotland has not taken that and at the very least call a halt to their closure programmes into account in coming to its conclusion. until we are through the current situation rather than quietly closing down branches never to open them Future growth will rely on start-ups and microbusinesses again. I wrote to the Bank of Scotland urging it to setting up in the area, so access to a banking service consider that action. remains vital. About 20% of small businesses with turnover below £2 million use branches as their primary The latest tranche of closures announced by Lloyds/Bank source of banking. Being able to get into the bank at a of Scotland comes after years of watching the vital time suitable for them will clearly be critical. The sheer network being decimated. Between 2012 and 2019, the geography of Midlothian does not lend itself to a bank UK lost 22% of its bank and building society branches. being even two or three miles away—the physical journey In 2017, about 10% of the rural population lived at least might not always be a straight or simple one. 10 miles away from their nearest branch. Scotland, with its highly rural population and more challenging The Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, in its 2019 demographics, saw a third of branches close in just nine report on access to financial services, stated: years, with 610 closures between 2010 and 2018. The “The impact of losing a bank is particularly is acute when it is announcement in January from Lloyds Banking Group the last bank in town”— of 56 branch closures was still a little surprising as it as in this situation. Statistics tell the same story.Research came just a month after Bank of Scotland managing mapping branch closures against the British Bankers director Tara Foley was reported to have said at the Association postcode lending data found that growth in opening of a hub in Glasgow that the bank was committed lending to small and medium-sized enterprises was to its branch network and that branches were “not dampened by 63% on average in postcodes that lost a going anywhere.”Tell that to my constituents in Loanhead. bank branch. When it was the last bank in town, that For hundreds of years, the Bank of Scotland was a figure shot up to 104%. On average, postcodes that lose respectable stalwart of the Edinburgh establishment, their last bank receive almost £1.6 million less in lending ahead of the field in finance and in finding innovative over the course of a year. solutions to meet customer needs. Founded in July 1695 The Loanhead branch closing will without doubt by an Act of the original Scottish Parliament, the damage this historic town economically, as it will the independent one, the bank started opening branches nearby communities of Bilston, Damhead and Roslin, back in 1774. It was the first bank in Europe to offer all of which rely on that bank. paper currency and, in 1826, fought a spirited campaign against attempts by the Westminster Parliament to outlaw Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): its notes below £5. The campaign was much aided by I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this the fantastic writer Walter Scott, whose head now adorns debate. I recognise that he is talking about the Royal the bank’s modern notes, in tribute to that popular and Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland groups, but the successful campaign. I hope this campaign will be issue is truly UK-wide. I particularly noted his points equally successful. about the last bank in town closing, because I am seeing 373WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 374WH that in Knaresborough, in my constituency. Does he financial expertise or facilities needed to deliver the full agree that access to financial services and advice, alongside range of bank services when the bank leaves town, nor the banking services that he described, is particularly should it be expected to do so. important at a time of great financial uncertainty, when Concerns were expressed to the Treasury Committee people are anxious about their financial futures because last year about the way the agreement with banks was of the coronavirus emergency? operating, and that the Post Office would be put under added pressure, as it did not make a profit from those Owen Thompson: I absolutely agree with the hon. services. More than half of adults were unaware that Gentleman. It is absolutely critical that people have they could even use it and said when asked that they access to the best possible advice, especially now, where would prefer to deal directly with their bank. There is a none of us really knows what situation we will be facing long way to go before that gap can be filled. We must in a month or two months, never mind next week. It is protect for the future both the post offices and the critical that there is access to information and advice, branch networks. That is not just for the vulnerable, and that that is easily accessible for all our communities although that is a good enough reason to call a halt to across the country, wherever they happen to be. this ruthless cull of face-to-face banking. Those who predict the relentless rise of automation sometimes Losing the last bank in town will increase the financial forget another key factor—human nature. Digital banking exclusion of our older and less mobile residents. Being has convenience on its side but will never replace the able to go to the high street to do their finances is an human interaction. It was predicted that e-readers, such important part of staying independent for many people. as the Kindle, would kill off printed books. That did It is a lifeline. It is fair to say that banking habits have not happen. We see vinyl record sales booming for the changed and the Loanhead branch, like most, is certainly younger generation, despite the ridiculous price tags less busy than it historically was. The figures in the and the simplicity of streaming. Digital and physical bank’s own closing branch review found a 4% drop in formats are finding a happy co-existence in the modern counter transactions from personal customers over one world; they complement each other, as they both have year and an 8% drop when businesses are included. To advantages and disadvantages. me, that appears to be a fairly manageable figure, especially The same goes for banking. There are many individuals when we consider the town is set to expand significantly who sometimes use a branch and sometimes use other in the coming years. means. We need both branch and online banking to It is also true that the majority of the population will thrive in a flexible, inclusive, modern society and we be able to do much more of their business online. I am lose them at our peril. When IT goes wrong, as it does, not denying that, but we do not always want to do we all return to the bricks and mortar of a branch. We business online, and certainly there are a number of need to protect those branches so that they are there for people in our communities who cannot do their business the future. The Treasury Committee in the previous online. Most of us appreciate being able to check balances Parliament warned that and do transactions whenever we want, although we do “if no action is taken, the UK risks inadvertently becoming a not necessarily like it when the IT breaks down or we cashless society. For a large portion of society, including some of stumble over the pass codes. Even with that change in the most vulnerable, this would have stark consequences.” behaviour, a significant number of bank customers We have seen a rapid drop in free ATMs, as the completely rely on the local branch; they do not even reduced interchange fee made the business model less have a digital option. viable. Latest figures from LINK, the UK’s largest cash The bank’s review found that 76% of customers machine network, revealed that 1,300 ATMs were lost sometimes use other branches, internet or telephone between the end of January and the beginning of July banking. That leaves almost a quarter of their customers 2018. The consumer organisation Which? predicted that who never use those other methods and are solely free cash machines would become a thing of the past, reliant on the branch. Many of them are in older age after it emerged that 1,700 ATMs switched to charging groups—44% of customers were over 55, 26% over 65 in the first three months of the year alone. We are being and 13% over 75. It is quite clearly the older population pushed towards a cashless society that we are not prepared who will face the worst disruption from the proposed for and do not want. That is not solely through consumer changes. According to Age Scotland, 67% of people demand but financial incentives to go cashless, the over 75 do not use the internet at all. Many older people creation of a cashless deserts and the continued running expressed frustration with phone banking and lack of down of the branch network. trust in digital options, and said that the cost of accessing We are asking people to wash their hands a lot more the technology is in itself inhibitive. In some areas, fast these days, but it is no longer good enough for the UK enough connections are not even available. Government to wash their hands of this serious issue. I know that work has been done to improve banking Like the politics of austerity, the decision to let things services in our post offices and I welcome that. The post slide is a choice, not necessity. The current access to office network is a fantastic resource for our communities banking standard does not go far enough to protect and it does whatever it can to pick up the pieces when a customers from branch losses, and the alternatives just bank abandons a town. We are particularly lucky in do not plug the gap. They will show customers how to Loanhead to have a very accommodating postmaster, sign into mobile banking or where to get a bus to the who I have no doubt at all will do everything in their next town, but the loss of a branch is already a done power to ease the transition for customers seeking deal. another local place to perform day-to-day transactions, Where the financial services markets fail, we need the but the post office network is under pressure too. As Government to step up to the plate. We could introduce great a job as it does, it does not have the resources, a public service obligation to protect the last branch in 375WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 376WH

[Owen Thompson] it is shutting up shop in locations where it has duplicate provision. The difficulty is that there is no duplicate town, for example, and ensure that people have a right provision in Giffnock because Virgin Money closed the to a physical bank branch. The Treasury Committee other branch three years ago—it is now a bistro, which I agreed, saying that wish every success, and which I am sure could use the “intervention by Government or the FCA may be necessary to support of a local bank. Virgin has suggested that force banks to provide a physical network for consumers.” people affected by the closure in Giffnock can use the It suggested they could bank in Newton Mearns. The implication was that Newton Mearns is the same as Giffnock, but they are “make changes to competition lawto allow banks to share facilities”. different towns. I wondered, “How might people get I would be keen to see that. For the Government to keep there? They could go on the bus.” I checked, and it is a brushing this off as a commercial decision is to neglect 50-minute round trip on the bus. That is really not a their responsibility. There are options to intervene; in practical solution or a sensible way for people to be told fact, they have a duty to do so, for the wellbeing of to proceed. millions of citizens. TSB is closing branches in Barrhead and Clarkston. I look forward to the Minister’s response. I hope that To my surprise, TSB suggested that customers who used we will see some action, and that the Bank of Scotland the Barrhead branch could use the one in Pollok. That will reverse the decision to close so many branches. is a round trip of at least an hour by public transport. I can only assume that TSB does not want those customers 4.42 pm to remain its customers and anticipates that they will all Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): It is a march across the road to the first-class credit union in pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I Barrhead, Pioneer Mutual, which I have no doubt will am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian not abandon the people of Barrhead and will continue (Owen Thompson) for securing this important debate. to provide the wide range of fantastic services for which Like him, I have a sense of déjà vu, having spoken in we are grateful. similar debates a number of times before. TSB suggests that when its Clarkston branch closes, I am aware of the very serious situation that we are people can go to Thornliebank, but they would need to dealing with. People at home will be watching and take the half-hourly train or the hourly bus. None of thinking about the difficulties that the covid-19 crisis those things are what people need. It is unhelpful in the presents us. We are well aware of that, and I encourage extreme for banks to suggest that those are somehow people to follow the most up-to-date advice at every substitutions. Like when someone orders teabags in point. Bank closures is quite a pertinent issue at the their online shop and the supermarket sends a dishcloth, moment. This is not quite the speech I might have given the solutions are absolutely ludicrous and really quite under different circumstances, but it is possibly even upsetting to people who are accustomed to banking more pressing that banks do not abandon our high locally. streets—goodness knows, they have troubles enough The people who need the service most are always the without banks upping sticks and leaving behind all the worst affected, as my hon. Friend said. Among them businesses that are struggling so much. are older people, who are accustomed to dealing in cash I am really scunnered on behalf of my constituents; and who should not be prevented from doing so; people there have been repeated bank closures in towns all over who are less mobile; people who do not have cars; and East Renfrewshire over the past few years. When I of course local businesses, which absolutely rely on served a previous term as MP, East Renfrewshire was high-street banking services.People who run local businesses apparently one of the worst hit areas for bank branch are genuinely concerned about bank closures, which closures, yet here I am again because more closures are make a significant difference to what they can do. planned. When MPs and members of the public are As my hon. Friend said, despite the significant difficulties notified of bank closures, there is no acceptance or that businesses currently face, they are doing great acknowledgement of the actual impact on local residents things, such as delivering things to people and being and businesses. There is no consultation; it just hard flexible in their services. They are going above and lines, and that makes a difference to people’s lives. beyond and being imaginative in the way that they do Knowing that I would speak in this debate, somebody business, so this is the very time when they need an told me that after the closure of a bank branch of which assurance that the banks are there and will still be there they were a customer in East Renfrewshire, they got afterwards. They need the banks upping sticks like they some text messages asking what they thought about need a hole in the head. bank branch closures. They could only click the boxes Businesses will rely on Government support in the provided—there was no free text option for whatever coming weeks and months—that will be so important. reason—and the options, to paraphrase, were, “They’re If we hope—and we do—that our businesses find ways good,” “They’re fine,” and “They’re okay”. They are not to sustain themselves, surely that necessitates the availability okay. That kind of ridiculous box-ticking exercise really of banks so that discussions and banking can take place does not give people any comfort that they are being in communities where those businesses are rooted. The listened to, and will come as no surprise to any Member Government stepped up when we bailed out the banks, of the House who has had to deal with bank closures. It so now it is their turn. feels as if there is a disregard for the needs of our Banks and bank bosses need to step up and recognise communities and often of basic geography. that the situation is unique. This is the time for them to In East Renfrewshire, we face three additional closures, reconsider any plans to close bank branches and to which is the last thing that people need. According to think about what they are really for and whether they Virgin Money, it is closing the Giffnock branch because should be turning away from our constituents. They 377WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 378WH should not be turning away from our high streets now. Royal Bank of Scotland is part of the NatWest We need them to be with us when things are difficult; group—that is how it is to be rebranded—and NatWest now is certainly not the time for them to walk away. does not employ such a clawback. I urge the Minister to think about that and the impact it is having on people. 4.50 pm Given that the Government are the major shareholder in Royal Bank of Scotland, and it is now returning a Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): Thank profit of billions of pounds, the very least they could do you for allowing me to catch your eye, Sir David. I is look after those workers who were loyal to Royal congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian Bank of Scotland but got a kick in the teeth when bank (Owen Thompson) on bringing forward the debate. I closures were implemented. want first to touch on the potential closure of the Bank of Scotland branch in Galston in my constituency. It is not just the last bank in Galston, but actually the last 4.54 pm bank in town for nine settlements. Kilmarnock, the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): First, I congratulate major town in my constituency, will be the only one left the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) on with banks. That is unacceptable. Settlements with a bringing forward the debate—I think there has hardly combined population of more than 40,000 people will been a banking debate that I have not been at. The be without access to a bank. Minister is always in his place to respond, and I am sure The Bank of Scotland always uses the same mode of he knows what we will say before we say it and that he operation; it sends out a letter to notify its customers shares our frustration over bank closures. As I mentioned and produces statistics that say that the branch has had earlier, my constituency has seen one of the largest a drop in numbers and performs less well than the numbers of bank closures in the whole of the United average bank. I pointed out that if it keeps reducing Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There branches and concentrating on big urban centres, the has been some attempt to fill the gap with credit unions remaining rural branches will clearly have less footfall and post offices, which have done so to a certain extent, than the urban branches. They also have less overheads, but not in totality. That is where my concern lies. and possibly less staff. It is not comparing apples with I joined in the debate last June—we had another one apples. a few weeks ago—to express my frustration with the banks that were closing branches because they say there Kirsten Oswald: My hon. Friend is making some is another one just 15 minutes up the road, or 50 minutes fundamental points. Does he share my utter dismay up the road, as the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire that banks repeatedly tell us that more people bank (Kirsten Oswald) explained. That is not very helpful for online while not realising that they of course have to people who are on their lunch break or reliant on public because banks keep closing their branches? transport, which is not always available at the time that they need it to get them back to work, as she also Alan Brown: I agree 100%. The banks are forcing a suggested, especially in a rural constituency. change in behaviour. In Galston, Bank of Scotland also highlighted that businesses are now using the cash Physical branches are important to the consumer, but machine to lodge more money. Why is that? It is because not to the bottom line, and it would seem that that is the the staff have advised businesses to do that. Guess only consideration for some of those at the top of the what? It is now taking away that cash machine anyway, banks. How annoyed was I, last month, to find that yet so that argument is completely undermined. another bank closure is planned for Newtownards, the It is really frustrating for people when they get a letter main town in my constituency? This time it was Barclays. with fancy pie charts and statistics that are frankly I got the obligatory email of intent, as we all do, and an meaningless. I believe that I have got some analytical offer to meet, going through the format of a visually skills, so as an MP I contacted the bank to ask a arranged meeting. I have arranged it in my diary, by the number of questions about the statistics it provided on way, and I will meet them, but the fact is that although changing behaviour. I got the most ridiculous, bland the meeting might relieve some of my frustration, it will response, all dressed up in woolly words and ignoring not make one button of a difference to Barclays. my questions. I call on the Bank of Scotland at the very I mean no disrespect—I try to be respectful to everyone least to up its game, increase engagement and answer as best I can—but I have no hope at all of persuading questions that come from the likes of me and the them to keep the Barclays bank in Newtownards open. members of the community who are lobbying hard. I have sat in too many of those meetings, which is why I In concluding, I would like to raise another issue that have become a bit cynical about meeting the banks. I is pertinent to people who have worked for Royal Bank think I have had some nine bank closures in total in my of Scotland. Many women who worked in banks were constituency. I have had a meeting with the banks on part-time workers who had less wages. They had to every one of those occasions, and with all the persuasion suffer redundancies through bank closures. Some of of stats and letters from customers that we had, we were them might be WASPI women—Women Against State not successful in turning things around. Pension Inequality—who will have to wait longer before As those branches have closed one by one, I have sat they access their state pension. Those who were RBS in too many of those meetings and been shown increases employees discover that, once they access their state in online activity, as the hon. Lady mentioned. If we pension, RBS initiates a clawback on their private pension. take the logic that she referred to, it is true that, if we I met constituents on Friday, and one of them loses up close all the banks, more people will go online. But it to 25% of her pension. It turns out that is legal—it goes does not suit everybody to go online—that is the point back to an agreement that RBS put in place—but it is we are making, but it seems to fall on deaf ears. What is also immoral. not explained is that the increase is because staff members 379WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 380WH

[Jim Shannon] office or the credit union, but I suspect that some did not, and I therefore fear money being stored under the have been pushing this, which they have. There is nothing blanket, the pillow or the mattress, or in some tin box wrong with pushing the online deal if it suits people, but somewhere, because those people want to be in control. it does not suit everybody, and the bank customers on My wife’s auntie was in that situation. She had some whose behalf I went to all those meetings were not able money in the house, which we did not know about. One to bank by logging on to the system. It is not always day she was out for only half an hour, but the thieves easy, either, when people do not have the broadband obviously knew, and they came in and stole her life access to enable that to happen. savings—£8,500—which were probably to pay for her Over the years the bank closures in my constituency have funeral. It is soul-destroying. The community came been Kircubbin, Portaferry,Killyleagh and Ballynahinch— together to help as best they could. That happened to a all Ulster Bank—Danske Bank in Kircubbin and Portaferry, couple of others in my constituency as well, and again Barclays bank now imminent, Bank of Ireland and the community reached deep into their pockets and Allied Irish. Those banks have all moved to other towns made some of that money available. or moved out of the area completely. I remember when we used to have at least four banks on the Ards peninsula, I realise that time is flying. I was sitting here almost but they have all been closed. There were some sub-banks, loth to speak, to again use the same words and rhetoric, which would have been there on certain days a week, because it is not stopping the closures. Then I realised but they are away as well. that this is the place where changes need to take place. I have the utmost respect for the Minister, as he knows, The hon. Member for Midlothian referred to credit but I urge him and his Department to give serious unions, and we have been fortunate that credit unions consideration to supporting those banks that support have grown in my constituency, as they probably have in their local community. For Newtownards, that is the all our constituencies. They have tried to fill the gap, Danske Bank, the Ulster Bank—the one that is left—the and they have done so to some extent, but they cannot Santander bank, which has filled some of the gap for provide what the banks offer to customers. We have a some customers, and the Nationwide building society. new credit union in Kircubbin; I am very pleased to see Those are the last four banks in Newtownards. All pay it, and it is very active and very able. The credit union in rates and council tax, provide local employment and are Portaferry has grown as the banks have closed, as has all available for the vulnerable—for me, this debate is the credit union in Newtownards. I had the Minister about the vulnerable; those who do not have access to over about a year and a half ago to visit the one in banks—to open their first bank account or for those Newtownards, which is doing extremely well. The credit who want face-to-face advice, because we need that unions are filling the gap. from the banks as well. Then there are post offices. The Minister might say I ask the Minister what we can do to reward those that post offices are able to fill the gap, and in some banks that do right by local communities and keep an ways they are, but they cannot provide all the range of online thrust as well. I understand that some people support and services that can be given in the banks. Post want to go online. I am an old traditionalist; I will offices can only fill those in a small way. We need to probably still write cheques for all my things every have all the opportunities that the banks offer. I am week, as I always do, and I will probably still carry cash becoming increasingly frustrated with the banks. I say in my wallet, because that is how I did it when I opened that not as a socialist— my first bank account at age 18. How can we encourage more banks to be part of local communities, instead of Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): being removed and literally counting their pounds rolling There is nothing wrong with that. in? I look to the Minister for guidance, because asking, reasoning and pleading with the banks is not working. Jim Shannon: There is nothing wrong with being a Maybe rewarding community-minded banks is the way socialist, by the way—I am letting you know that right forward. now. I am not against the banks, but I get immensely frustrated when it seems that they make decisions in order to bring bigger dividends for their shareholders. I 5.3 pm suspect that everyone who spoke and the shadow Minister will say the same thing, but to me it is simple: the wee Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I man and wee woman need help, and they deserve to echo the thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for have their banks, yet it is all about the profit at the end Midlothian (Owen Thompson) for securing this important of the year. Whenever banks are making a massive debate. I feel as if I have spent quite a lot of time in the profit, in a way it is about getting more profit. Was it five years since I was elected bemoaning the stampeding Jean Paul Getty who said that the only thing better than of banks out of our communities without so much as a having £1 million is having another £1 million? Speaking backward glance. about Jean Paul Getty probably ages me, but I am just My constituency has several towns where there is no making the point that banks focus only on their profit bank at all, and other Members have talked of similar margin and how much they can make, not on delivering. issues. Ardrossan, Stevenston, Kilwinning—a town of The hon. Members for Midlothian and for East 21,000 people—West Kilbride, Dalry and Beith are all Renfrewshire referred to online banking—I know that without a bank, and Kilbirnie’s last bank has reduced others will refer to it as well—but it does not suit its opening hours. That is the only bank left in the entire everybody. I tried to help a number of customers of Garnock valley, which is three distinct towns with a those banks to do online banking, but it was lost on collective population of more than 19,000 people. Losing them. I hope those people took their savings to the post the last bank in our towns is a severe blow to our 381WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 382WH communities. It undermines their commercial stability Of course, we have these mobile banks, but they and has a significant social impact, which we have really do not answer the question of what we do without heard much about today. a bank. They are not disability compliant, their reliability My constituency, like that of every Member who has is questionable at best, and they simply do not fit the spoken, has been hit particularly hard, and I share all bill or take the place of a bank. We also know that the the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member gaps left by banks cannot be properly filled by post for Midlothian (Owen Thompson). In Scotland, according offices. That is no reflection on post offices, which work to research, we have lost more than one third of our hard to provide a good service to our communities, but bank branches since 2015. The consumer organisation they are not banks and they cannot fill the gap. As the Which? found that banks shut 396 Scottish branches Minister will know, the Treasury Committee concluded between January 2015 and August 2019, reducing their that post offices number by 38%—an alarming rate of closure, by any “should not be seen as a replacement for a branch network, but a measure. My hon. Friends the Members for Midlothian, complementary proposition”. for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald), and for Other Members have talked about the fact that post Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) and the hon. offices simply cannot fill that gap. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) have all said Along with branch closures we are witnessing the similar things. demise of free cash machines, as we have heard. About As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member 10 free-to-use ATMs a week have been shut down in the for East Renfrewshire, it is clear that any consultations past year. As far as I can make out—although I hope are simply window dressing. They are tick-box exercises the Minister will contradict me—the Treasury seems to so that the banks can reassure themselves and the have been deaf to all pleas for Government intervention Minister—“Oh yes, Minister, we have undertaken to protect free cash. I hope that the Minister is able to consultation”—when we know that is not true in reality. offer some comfort today. I remember the same thing happening in 2007 and 2008, when there were mass post office closures in my The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): constituency. That was long before I was elected to this It was in the Budget. place, and perhaps innocently—perhaps even naively—I, along with other Scottish National party activists, set Patricia Gibson: I look forward to hearing from the up street stalls. We went door to door with petitions. We Minister, who is speaking from a sedentary position. did everything we could to get the post office to reverse The ATM Industry Association has warned that one those closures, but of course nothing changed, because fifth of Scotland’sfree ATMs will start to charge consumers the consultations were not at all meaningful. We have in the next year. That can be seen only as a cynical move memories of these consultations from other times, and I to force us to become a cashless society. Picking up say to the Minister that this has to stop. what has been touched on by my hon. Friends the The Treasury Committee concluded that Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, for East “there are still large sections of society who rely on bank branches Renfrewshire, and for Midlothian, and the hon. Member to carry out their banking needs. A bank branch network, or at for Strangford, bank closures have, as we now know—the the least, a face-to-face banking solution, is still a vital component game is up—been a tool to force people to bank online. of the financial services sector, and must be preserved.” As banks have quietly cut the fees that they are willing I know that the Minister probably will not agree—I to pay machine operators to provide bank customers have said this to him before, during one of the countless with access to cash, they are forcing us to go cashless debates on this topic I have participated in—but I and online. Banks are attempting to put pressure on genuinely believe that because there was no UK customers who do not act in a way that they—the Government intervention when RBS announced its radical, banks—find convenient. What happened to the customer eye-watering programme of closures, although we as being king? taxpayers owned a significant stake in RBS, the fact Going cashless and banking online may, as we have that nothing was done emboldened the other banks that heard, be the preferred option for some—and good luck have no element of public ownership. If a publicly to them—but some of us do not want to go down that owned bank can do it, why can a private bank not do route, and increasingly aggressive efforts are being made the same without any kickback or repercussions from for it to happen, at breakneck speed. I and those of my those in the corridors of power? constituents who do not favour those options will not If the Government are as willing as they have be forced to bank online. We will not be bullied into demonstrated to accept closures of bank branches—banks doing so or into going cashless. It is a rum do when the that they owned, in the case of RBS—that is extremely service provider is bullying the customer—because that disappointing.ThroughoutRBS’sentireclosureprogramme, is how it feels. In any case, even among customers who I listened very hard, but I could not hear anybody in may be interested in banking online there are some who Government condemning those closures. All I heard simply are not able to, for a variety of reasons that the was a distancing from any sense of responsibility, which Minister will understand, and of which the hon. Member is really disappointing for our constituents. It seems for Strangford reminded us. that other banks felt they could employ the same tactics I have corresponded with the Treasury about online and close down wherever they felt it was no longer banking in the past, and it accepted that broadband convenient to have a branch, without any consequences access is not yet good enough for everyone to rely on or official condemnation from Government. As a result, digital banking. The Government and the access to the people who pay the price are those in our communities banking standard must ensure that banks have a social who are suffering for want of a bank, and will continue responsibility to provide banking facilities to all our to suffer. We have heard a lot about that today. towns. Such services could be provided relatively easily 383WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 384WH

[Patricia Gibson] “Here in Droylsden we now don’t have a single bank! We’ve gone from having Lloyd’s, NatWest, Royal Bank of Scotland and through the wide rolling-out of banking hubs. Indeed, I Halifax to having none!!! Our infrastructure dwindles by the day.” met the Minister in his constituency to discuss that very For businesses in particular the closures have posed issue last year. I am hoping—I am quite excited about challenges. One of my local business owners said: it—that he will be able to update me on progress with “You can do banking at the Post Office but, in order to pay that. I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I am things in, you have to get in touch with your bank first and get wrong but I cannot see any discernible obstacle to the paying in slips sent out. Santander would only send me 5 and I option except for perhaps a lack of political will and, have run out now. It means I can’t accept cheques for my business easily. I don’t have the time to keep ringing up for paying in indeed, the arrogance and intransigence of the banking … industry. slips It’s a killer for small businesses who have to close their shops to go and stand in a queue for a lengthy period of time just Our communities and constituents deserve better than to get change.” they have had up to this point. Banks have to face up to I have also heard moving stories from those who care their social responsibilities, get their heads together and for others, who have inevitably borne the brunt of create banking hubs in our towns, across the board. closures. One said: There is no real impediment to that, and I urge the Minister to use his good offices to bang some banking “My mum with Alzheimer’s relied on her Lloyd’s branch in Droylsden before it was shut. The staff knew her well and helped heads together and ensure that customers’ voices are her. They knew her condition and if she was in a bad way they heard. The Government have a role to play when the would phone me and give her a cup of tea while they waited for last bank in town is closed. They have said repeatedly me to arrive. The staff said there were lots of other people like my that those are commercial decisions, but it is not just a mum. The closure really affected her.” commercial matter. It is about social responsibility and The most recent disappointing news that I have had in financial inclusion. I urge the Minister to reflect further my constituency is that Barclays will be closing its branch on the strong feelings and concerns that have been in Hyde, too. When I announced that on my Facebook expressed today. Will he finally bring forward legislative page, it very quickly attracted more than 100 comments proposals to ensure that banks live up to their responsibilities from local people. People really care about this issue, to our communities? and they are right to do so. A common thread among the feedback that I hear from constituents is that nobody 5.13 pm wants their community to become a ghost town. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): Equally, no one is saying that they want to halt It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir David. progress, but we must ensure that technology works for I thank the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen us and not the other way around. Some of the technological Thompson) for securing this debate on a topic of vital advances could be harnessed to include people who importance to people across the UK. Today’s debate historically have had trouble interacting with traditional takes place at a time of unprecedented national crisis, banking, such as offering remote video appointments but, as the hon. Gentleman said, the conversations that or having speaking ATMs. However, the goal must be we are now having about the social and health implications to strive to ensure that we use technology to benefit of compulsory isolation show how important our high bank customers, rather than creating a pared-down streets and shared social spaces are. Bank branches play automated banking sector that leaves people without a fundamental part in maintaining contact for vulnerable the support that they need. people. Even in a time of rapid change, when we are That is also true of access to cash, which many shifting a lot of our lives online, we have to make sure Members have raised. Although habits around cash are that communities that need a physical bank branch are changing—when I am at work in London, I tend not to not left behind. use cash very much—I certainly need it when I go home We have had many debates on the issue. We gathered at the end of the week. Members are correct to say that here, by my reckoning, just over a year ago to address it; we must not allow ourselves to sleepwalk into a system the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) was that leaves some communities stranded without ATMs. definitely present. In the year since, the matter has I know that the Government and the Minister are become no less pressing. At the time, I shared with concerned about that, but communities must have the colleagues some of the experiences of my constituents fundamental right to demand an access to cash review and what bank branch closures have meant for them. in their area, like the access to cash review proposed, so Too often, we are distracted by the headline numbers that the power is theirs to ask for a review of their cash and forget the impact of the closures on real people’s arrangements. lives. I will revisit some of those comments today. Although, as habits change, we would anticipate that I represent the towns of Hyde, Stalybridge, where I some bank branches would have had to close in recent live, Dukinfield, Longdendale and Mossley. They are times, the hon. Member for Midlothian is right that the exactly the kinds of towns that have suffered very badly rate at which the branch network is shrinking is accelerating, from the closures in recent years. I have lost branches of which is the primary concern. Figures from Which? RBS, Lloyds and Yorkshire Bank. Here are some direct show that 3,509 branches have closed across the UK quotes from constituents about how it has affected since January 2015. That is at a rate of 55 a month. The them. One constituent said: scale of those closures seems disproportionate and does “Losing the Lloyds in Stalybridge has been a blow. Yes there is not necessarily match what people are saying to us one in Ashton and there is online banking. But there is no about how they want to use their bank branches. Research substitute for making an appointment you can walk to and conducted in 2016 by the Social Market Foundation talking to an actual human being.” found that there remains a strong consumer appetite for A constituent just outside of my area said: a physical presence. 385WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 386WH

Labour’s proposal in our recent manifesto was to adults used online banking, half mobile banking and change the law regulating banks so that no closure two thirds contactless payments. Meanwhile, branch could take place without appropriate local consultation usage fell by 26%, on average, between 2012 and 2017, and without FCA approval. I share the concerns that with many communities seeing even more drastic declines. have been raised about the existing nature of consultation. Banks clearly must balance changing customer interests, Crucially, a bank should have to consult with not only market competition and other commercial factors when the customers of that branch but representatives of the they consider their response. Many have proceeded in local council. Fundamentally, it should have to publish different ways. Sometimes they take the difficult decision details of the reasons for closure, including financial to close branches in order to strike that balance. Although calculations showing the revenues and costs of the that is disappointing for communities, I have been clear relevant branch. that banks are best suited to know what works for their The share of central costs, such as those for accounting customers, and these must ultimately be commercial systems, IT, security, personnel and so on, would have decisions. to be allocated to the branch and separately identified, That said, in January, I visited Yarm in Stockton to especially as many of those costs are relatively fixed and look at what Barclays is doing with its network. It has are not proportionate to the number of branches. The taken a group of more than 100 branches—102 or 112, FCA’s approval would then be needed for any bank I think—that are the last bank in their towns, and is branch closure. I urge the Government to think perhaps working hard with the communities to secure a future. I not about the specifics of that, but certainly about the encouraged it in that work, because models exist to transparency of information published by a bank when sustain such branches, if transfers are made into that a branch is to close. In addition, we wanted to see the last bank. Barclays is optimistic about a large proportion Post Office evolve from its current banking framework of the cohort surviving for a significant time. to being a bank in its own right. Many countries operate very successful postal banks, and that could have been The Government cannot reverse changes in the market the basis for the long-term future of the Post Office, and in customer behaviour, and nor can we determine too. the commercial strategies of individual firms. I still In the next few months, we will be shown the harsh believe that it is not for me in Westminster to decide the realities of social isolation. This is an important moment shape of a branch network or whether a bank should to think about how important communities are, and the place a branch in Wolverhampton or Wick, but it is role that bank branches play in holding high streets and important that the impact of closures on communities localities together. Regulators, banks and policy makers is understood, considered and mitigated. I will set out must work together to improve what we have at the some of the ongoing work in that area. minute and to ensure that we end up with a banking The access to banking standard is a key mechanism infrastructure that works for all customers, all communities to ensure that customers are well informed about branch and the future. closures, and that banks set out their reasons for closure and the alternatives available to consumers. Since May 2017, the major high street banks have voluntarily 5.20 pm signed up to the standard. However, I acknowledge that The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): hon. Members have made representations to the effect It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, that the application of the standard lacks transparency, Sir David. is inconsistent and is insufficiently tailored to local I thank the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen conditions. Thompson) for securing this debate on an enduring Last July,therefore, I met representatives of the Lending concern across this Chamber and the House as a whole. Standards Board and UK Finance, which enforce and I thank him for our conversation yesterday, following own the standard, to discuss some of these concerns. As up on his question during business questions at the end a result, they have agreed to two key improvements to of February. Since the start of this year, I have had the application of the standard. The first is agreement conversations about similar matters with the hon. Member on a common definition of what constitutes an impacted for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) customer when a branch closes, and the second is and my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley agreement on a number of common metrics to be used (Jason McCartney). in impact assessments. Both of those will drive greater In the debate, I listened carefully to the speeches of consistency of information among banks when they are the hon. Members for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald), closing branches. for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown), for Strangford In its recent annual report, the Lending Standards (Jim Shannon) and for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Board reported improved compliance with the standard Reynolds). In my remarks, I will address the points they among firms. It found that firms were providing more made. local information specific to the branches in question, The hon. Member for Midlothian, in opening, referred and strengthening their relationships and engagement to the current context. At this time, obviously, banks with the Post Office. In due course, the Lending Standards will operate using contingency plans. In the light of Board will publish examples of best practice to highlight such circumstances, we expect them to consider what positive approaches and provide a standard for under- that means for their branch closure programmes. performing firms to work towards. Customer-facing financial services are undeniably Hon. Members will know the important role that the changing, as consumers and businesses opt for the Post Office plays when branches close, and I have noted convenience, security and speed of digital payments the comments of the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and banking. In 2018, almost three quarters of UK and Arran (Patricia Gibson) about the Treasury 387WH Bank Branch Closures18 MARCH 2020 Bank Branch Closures 388WH

[John Glen] collaborative way. Of course, doing so depends on physical connectivity; some 98% of premises in the UK Committee’s report on this issue. I was therefore pleased can access decent broadband, but there is more work to by the successful renegotiation of the Post Office’s be done. That is why the Budget announced a £5 billion commercial agreement with the high street banks. That commitment to support the roll out of gigabit-capable means that for the next three years at least, 99% of broadband. personal customers and 95% of small and medium-sized Mobile coverage is also important; as the Chancellor enterprise customers can continue with everyday banking has announced, the shared rural network agreement has at one of the UK’s 11,500 Post Office branches. been finalised, which will involve an extra £510 million The agreement also ensures that local postmasters of funding from the Government. That means that 95% will see a considerable increase in fees for processing of the UK’s landmass will have that connectivity. transactions,which will rise as volumes grow.I acknowledge Last year, I concluded a Westminster Hall debate on the hon. Lady’s point about this being a complementary this topic with a call to arms for the industry, which I activity; I do think we are on a journey when it comes to reiterate and re-emphasise today. We cannot reverse the functions that post offices can provide, because they digital innovation—nor should we, given the benefits it clearly cannot provide face-to-face banking services. brings. However, this House can agree that vulnerable Those are being aggregated generally across the industry, customers must not be left behind or locked out of but these are issues that the banking industry must opportunities. Government, regulators and industry are come to terms with. I will say more about that in a already acting to ensure cash remains available. I have minute. just come off a call this afternoon in which I discussed Post Office figures from between 2018 and 2019 show mutual banks, credit union reform—which was also that overall transactions increased by 15.5%, deposits announced in the Budget—and hubs and cash access, increased by just under 40%, and withdrawals grew by which is something I am actively pursuing the banks 16%. Increased income from fees will help the post about. office network become more financially sustainable and We must keep putting energy into digital inclusion, will allow for investment in automation, training and and not let the process of innovation run out of steam. I security. As high street entities, post offices face similar will be working with the industry and pushing it to go challenges when it comes to footfall and the changing further. I value all the contributions that have been behaviour of customers. made today; they reinforce the energy that I will continue Turning to the issue of access to cash, three in to bring to solving some of these difficult problems, 10 payments in the UK are still made in cash, and the which differ across the country. Government want to ensure that cash remains available for those who need it. That is why in last week’s Budget, 5.29 pm the Chancellor announced that the Government will bring forward legislation to protect access to cash. We Owen Thompson: I thank all hon. Members for their will work with regulators and stakeholders as we develop contributions. The sense of déjà vu among many, most our approach, including with LINK, the Payment Systems or all Members regarding the situation with banks is Regulator, and people such as Natalie Ceeney, who certainly of note. It is frustrating that banks’consultations carried out the “Access to Cash” review last year. That are so flawed—they are simply box-ticking exercises—and process will also involve stakeholders such as Which?, I welcome the innovative thinking that the Minister has who have taken a great interest in this issue. outlined. Hopefully, we can press that thinking on banks, but more needs to be done to make sure we maintain Improving digital access must be an equally important that face-to-face connection with our communities. part of our response. The opportunities created by digital and online products should be open to all, which is why we established the digital skills partnership to 5.30 pm bring together the public, private and third sectors to Motion lapsed, and sitting adjourned without Question address the digital skills gap in a more co-ordinated and put (Standing Order No. 10(14)). 21WS Written Statements 18 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 22WS

their service. A better way to deal with the past is Written Statements necessary if we are to help the whole of society to effectively heal the wounds of the troubles and become Wednesday 18 March 2020 better reconciled with our difficult history. In 2018, the Government carried out a public TREASURY consultation on ‘Addressing the Legacy of Northern Ireland’s Past’, inviting views on proposals based on the Contingent Liability Stormont House agreement. The consultation attracted over 17,000 responses—summarised in the Government’s ‘Analysis of the consultation responses’, published in The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): In my July 2019. We have carefully considered each and every oral statement yesterday I announced a new credit one of these, and sought to identify a way forward that easing scheme called the Covid-19 Corporate Financing will deliver for all those affected by the legacy of the Facility (CCFF), which is expected to become operational Troubles and enable all sides of the community to in the week commencing 23 March 2020. This scheme reconcile and prosper. It is clear that, while the principles will be run by the Bank of England (The Bank) on underpinning the draft Bill as consulted on in 2018 behalf of HM Treasury. HM Treasury are extending a remain, significant changes will be needed to obtain a full indemnity for the CCFF, which will create a new broad consensus for the implementation of any legislation. contingent liability for the Government equal to the We believe that the proposals set out below provide a potential losses of the Facility. framework for doing this. The CCFF will be a credit easing scheme targeted at easing the disruption to cash flows of companies following It is the Government’s view that to best meet the Covid-19. The scheme will focus on purchasing newly needs of all victims and of wider society, we need to issued commercial paper from eligible companies, which shift the focus of our approach to the past. While there are non-financial companies that make a material must always be a route to justice, experience suggests contribution to the UK economy and are rated investment that the likelihood of justice in most cases may now be grade. The CCFF is unlimited in size. small, and continues to decrease as time passes. Our view is that we should now therefore centre our attention HM Treasury will monitor risks to public funds from on providing as much information as possible to families the facility through regular meetings with the bank. The about what happened to their loved ones—while this is bank will manage the facility in accordance with a still possible. stringent risk control framework agreement between HM Treasury and the bank, which will be similar to Our proposals have therefore evolved to remain true existing frameworks such as that of the asset purchase to the principles of the Stormont House agreement but facility (APF). with a greater emphasis on gathering information for A departmental minute has been laid in the House families; moving at a faster pace to retrieve knowledge of Commons providing more detail on this contingent before it is lost; and doing more to help individuals and liability. society to share and understand the tragic experiences [HCWS169] of the past. It is proposed that these measures should be carried NORTHERN IRELAND out by one independent body to ensure the most efficient and joined-up approach, putting the needs of the individuals Legacy Issues most affected at the heart of the process. This body will oversee and manage both the information recovery and investigative aspects of the legacy system, and provide The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon every family with a report with information concerning Lewis): Today the Government announced the introduction the death of their loved one. of legislation to provide greater certainty for service personnel and veterans who serve in armed conflicts The Government want information recovery and overseas. Alongside this, we are setting out how we reconciliation to be at the heart of a revised legacy propose to address the legacy of the past in Northern system that puts victims first. The Government are Ireland in a way that focuses on reconciliation, delivers committed to the rule of law, but given the considerable for victims, and ends the cycle of reinvestigations into time that has elapsed since many of these incidents took the Troubles in Northern Ireland that has failed victims place it is vital that we swiftly implement an effective and veterans alike—ensuring equal treatment of Northern information recovery mechanism before this information Ireland veterans and those who served overseas. is lost forever. We have heard from many across Northern Ireland The Government will ensure that the investigations and the rest of the United Kingdom that the current which are necessary are effective and thorough, but approach is not working well for anyone, and that it quick, so we are able to move beyond the cycle of erodes confidence in public institutions that exist to investigations that has, to date, undermined attempts to support society as a whole. Discussions about how to come to terms with the past. Only cases in which there change this have been ongoing for many years. The is a realistic prospect of a prosecution as a result of new Stormont House agreement in 2014 was an important compelling evidence would proceed to a full police milestone, but it did not stop the debate continuing. investigation and if necessary, prosecution. Cases which Many families have waited too long to find out what do not reach this threshold, or subsequently are not happened to their loved ones, while those who defended referred for prosecution, would be closed and no further the rule of law deserve certainty that there will be an investigations or prosecutions would be possible—although end to repeated questions about what happened during family reports would still be provided to the victims 23WS Written Statements 18 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 24WS

’ loved ones. Such an approach would give all participants enabling criminal investigations to proceed where necessary, the confidence and certainty to fully engage with the while facilitating a swift transition to an effective information information recovery process. recovery mechanism before this information is lost forever. TheGovernmentarecommittedtointroducinglegislation The Government believe that this approach would in line with our commitments in ‘New Decade, New deliver a fair, balanced, and proportionate system that Approach’, to move forward and deliver for all communities is consistent with the principles of the Stormont House in Northern Ireland and beyond. agreement and deliver for all those who have been affected by the events of the past; striking a balance in [HCWS168]

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 18 March 2020

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 983 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Abortion Services...... 988 Strengthening the Union...... 989 Budget 2020...... 983 Customs...... 989 Electric Buses...... 986 PRIME MINISTER ...... 993 Environment Strategy ...... 991 Engagements...... 993 Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol...... 987 Engagements...... 1000 Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol...... 991 Rhondda...... 999 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 18 March 2020

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND...... 21WS TREASURY ...... 21WS Legacy Issues ...... 21WS Contingent Liability...... 21WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 25 March 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 673 Wednesday No. 43 18 March 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 18 March 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 983] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) [Col. 1005] Bill presented, and read the First time

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) [Col. 1005] Bill presented, and read the First time

Vagrancy (Repeal) [Col. 1005] Bill presented, and read the First time

Children (Access to Treatment) [Col. 1006] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Bambos Charalambous)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [6th allotted day] Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for Workers [Col. 1009] Motion—(Margaret Greenwood)—agreed to Local Government Responsibilities: Public Services [Col. 1049] Motion—(Rachel Maskell)—agreed to

Educational Settings [Col. 1083] Statement—(Gavin Williamson)

Future of Farming: Somerset [Col. 1109] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Prison Staff: Health and Safety [Col. 313WH] Supermarkets’ Role in Tackling Childhood Obesity [Col. 339WH] Greater Manchester Spatial Framework and the Green Belt [Col. 345WH] Organised Crime in Rural Areas [Col. 364WH] Bank Branch Closures [Col. 371WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 21WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]