A 1990 Perspective on the Sixties:

Ivan Karp and Lewis Pollock Remember Provincetown

Interview by Ann Wilson Lloyd

IVAN KARP For one season in 1963, Ivan Karp, I interviewed Karp in his art· I started going to Provincetown back in lately called the art market's super· duttered office at OK Harris 1941. I was there before I went into the dealer, opened what turned out to Gallery on in SoHo. army, and we spent a lot of time there in be the precursor of his New York With an ever-present lit cigar, he the interval. Of course I wasn't what you OK Harris Gallery, on Commercial waxed exuberant, with frequent might call a full grown substance at that Street in Provincetown. It was a asides "to expunge that part;• about point. I had been in the art community joint enterprise undertaken with his summer salad days in Province· beginning in 1955. I started working in a Karp's friend, Boston attorney and town's bohemian late 1950s and New York art gallery in 1956, for Martha collector Lewis Pollock and Pollock's early '60s. Lewis Pollock met me in Jackson, then I was with , and wife Lynn. There they showed his elegant Boston law office halfway during the summer months I was in work by unknown artists of the up a glass and steel highrise on Provincetown, which was a ruce destination embryonic Pop movement-the first State Street. There was art here as for me. I was very happy there. I knew every offerings from the likes of Roy well, though it was hung with sparse building on the street. I really knew the Lichtenstein, jim Dine, Claus decorum. He recalled Province- landscape. I knew who lived out in the Oldenburg, and , town's sixties' scene, with lawyerly dunes, and who lived in the back streets. all of whom Karp had under discretion, from the perspective of a Everyone wanted studio space on the bay. surveillance in his wintertime role young, equally enthusiastic collector. I bought two beautiful little cottages out as director of the Leo Castelli - Ann Wilson Lloyd near the sand dunes with my then wife. I Gallery in -but moved from Provincetown to Truro. The de what they sold was blueberry jam Groots occupied the other cabin. It was a and water pistols. very pretty piece of property, half an acre For three summers previously, with views of the ocean. We paid $7000 for Karp was director at Nat Halper's it. I called it Karp's Kosy Kottages, and had HCE Gallery in Provincetown. signs up that said that. It was a much more There the offerings were more intimate setting, the physical character of mainstream, artists like Robert the town still had its own qualities. The Motherwell and Milton Avery. piers were still intact, it was a large fishing Commercially, however, neither OK community then, and it had a lot of rustic Harris Provincetown, nor the HCE charm. Gallery approached any kind of During the winter, I worked at the Leo success, Karp and Pollock say. Even Castelli Gallery here in the city, so I was with such solid art world connec· already very elaborately enwrapped in the tions as Karp had developed, art world and I knew all of the major artists Provincetown, it seems, has always during the late '50s and early '60s. The been a tough market to crack. summer of 1959, I was living in a cottage

Provincetown Arts 1990 26 "It was an enjoyable place to be. I loved Provincetown at that time. I knew all the artists there. I used to attend all the events, go to these vigorous conflicts that used to take place at the Art Association:•

Ivan Karp at the HCE Gallery, Provincetown, c. 1959·60.

Provincetown Arts 1990 27 just off the back of Commercial Street, and not just little seascapes and quaint Pollock, a friend of mine, said we should AI Held asked us if he could paint in our Provincetown views. I was in support of open our own gallery in town. He was garage. For that whole summer he painted every artist that Mr. Halper showed. A lot going to sponsor it, and he said, " Come up his big bold abstract pictures in the back of them were sentimental favorites, friends with a name/' and I called it OK Harris, yard. In 1960, in the same house, or maybe of the family, and so forth, but it was oddly enough. I still have a matchbook that even that same year, 1959, Henry professional. says OK Harris, Provincetown. It was on the Geldzelder, who had just graduated from We had a Motherwell show, of his other end of Commercial Street, not a very Princeton's art or art history department, drawings and collages, basically simple large space. We were not locked into strictly came to me and said, "You have to tell me drawings and gestures which were not for a Provincetown format; we showed things how to function in the New York art world. a larger audience. They weren't very that I had started to see in New York then; I want to enter the art world. I want to be expensive, though Motherwell was part of Jim Dine, Claes Oldenburg. We were a luminary and I want to meet all the fancy the abstract expressionist momentum and probably among the first public forums for people!' So I gave him a list of all the people he had a lot of community respect. But his their art. It's possible Oldenburg himself he should meet, everybody he should know, work was very esoteric, you know. He was appeared at the gallery, but I don't think Jim and he went back to New York and began well known, but I don't think we had a Dine ever did. I may have had a Roy his research. He came back in a pickup Lichtenstein on , maybe even truck or a van, with John Chamber- an , whom I had just lain and Mark di Suvero, and they seen at that time. were headed out to visit David Smith " We all lived in poverty At any rate, that gallery was not in upstate New York. commercially successful either, the The first time I worked in a on the edge work again was far in advance of the Provincetown gallery was in 1959 or audience. It lasted just one summer. It '60 at the HCE Gallery. It was of the world. was the precursor of my SoHo gallery operated by Nathan Halper, a rather in that I used the same name, but I eccentric personality. He was a chess We had to wait for didn't open this gallery until 1969. specialist and he owned a very The name OK Harris was plucked handsome space on Commercial a social event, an out of the air. Earlier, Bob Scull, a Street, in the East End. major American collector, had come The gallery showed local artists and opening, to eat. to me. He wanted to open a gallery others as well. It showed a number of on 57th Street. He asked me and Dick luminaries, Robert Motherwell, who They were strenuous Bellamy, who also spent a lot of time lived there, and Milton Avery and a in Provincetown, and who was going lot of artists who were not times, but you could to run this gallery for him, to come particularly well known. We did one- up with a name. We came up with a person shows and several group live cheaply. " list of 50 names, and we decided that shows as well. A few paintings were OK Harris would be great. It was my sold, but it wasn't what you might choice; it had a kind of an American call a commercially active substance; emblematic quality about it, you it wasn't a major fine arts enterprise. Mr. commercial success. Even Milton Avery, know, it was quite memorable. But it was Halper was fascinated by the art scene, as who was also well known, was still selling rejected by that gallery, which eventually he was fascinated by literature, so he for a couple of thousand dollars a painting, became the Green Gallery. That was Dick interconnected with the various arts. and they were not that successful. Things Bellamy's name for it. Bellamy's Oil and The abstract expressionists pretty much of course broke open for him rather Steel was one of the names on that list we dominated the art scene; all of our heroes dramatically in the late 1960s. The paintings proposed, and Acme Gallery. Oh, we had were first generation abstract expressionists, in the gallery averaged a couple of thousand names of all kinds. but we enjoyed variations on that, especially dollars, maybe four thousand dollars tops. So I kept OK Harris as a name in reserve, at Castelli, which was a very progressive It was an enjoyable place to be. I loved and I used it for the little gallery in gallery. Since I was in the catbird's seat in Provincetown at that time, I knew any Provincetown. There's hardly any New York, people knew me in many cases number of people in the community. I knew documentation of it. Lewis and I operated better than they knew Mr. Halper. Artists all the artists there. I used to attend all the it. We showed Lucas Samaras, and Mr. traveling to Provincetown and collectors events, go to these vigorous conflicts that Pollock bought the first collages of coming up were acquainted with my used to take place at the Art Association, Oldenburg, $50 apiece I believe they were. activity in the city. So there was a lot of go to the openings at the other galleries He still has them; two little plaques made dramatic activity. We did a lot of innovative down the street, where we criticized what out of wood. He bought a couple of Jim exhibitions. I was mentally acclimated to they showed. Dines for $50 apiece too; think of that! showing a rich variety of things, which I worked for Halper for three seasons. I Pollock used to come to Provincetown were also shown at the HCE Gallery. All flew into town several times in 1962, but regularly at that time, and he thought it the work was pretty professional, nothing before that it was always a long arduous would be a nice thing to do. I imagine if the was shown just because the artist happened drive. I had my own car then, but before that gallery had remained in operation, it would to live in town, though one way or the somebody else drove me up. I once drove have gained a little momentum, but as I say, other, almost all of them were connected to with Nat Halper, one of the most terrifying the work shown there was pretty offbeat Provincetown. The work was fairly in experiences in my lifetime! stuff, the vanguard of American art. It was advance of the general audience. They were Then, I think it was in '62, that Lewis more exciting to do that, to show what was

Provincetown Arts 1990 28 considered dangerous and threatening and strongest element there. The number of a little bit adventurous. I was very much artists living there was myriad. I must have stimulated by what was happening in the known nine-tenths of the community. New York art scene outside of abstract When we had a social event there were expressionism. I thought that the always 50 artists in attendance. Nanno de cognoscenti, which was mostly the artist Groot was a marvelous man. He was a community, should be acquainted with it. movie actor type, six foot two, beautiful You know-I was going to show them my blond hair, handsome, always sunburned, in stuff-! was going to be the one to make wonderful condition. We showed his them educated! paintings at the HCE Gallery, with some We did a series of one-person shows, but measure of success. John Grillo was a mostly group shows. And that was all there marvelous personality. Tony Vevers, Paul was to it. I was really a very happy person Resika, Jim Forsberg-hearing those names there in Provincetown. I had some beautiful gives me a chill. I knew Kline, I visited with little cottages way out, so serene. I had a him, he did some good work there, and number of romances there. It was the right Rothko also. I saw Motherwell all the time. place for that. In the summertime, every Myron Stout was a close friend. He showed night was a spectacular sunset. We used to at the first New York gallery I was associated know all the remote beaches and have social with, the Hansa Gallery, in 1956. Dick events out on them. They were my Bellamy and I ran that gallery. We showed On bench, left to right: bohemian years! Myron and a few other Provincetown Sam Wagstaff, The visual arts were dominant. Of course artists, people we used to hang out with and , his child; there was the theater and a lot of literary mostly disciples of Hofmann. Karl Knaths foreground: julian Weber; people as well, but we thought that the worked with Myron Stout on a book about woman unknown; pulse of the visual arts was really the the history of cubism. They worked Provincetown, 1963.

Provincetown Arts 1990 29 together for 20 years on it. They used to It didn't sell well until the last five years of tions. Phil Malicoat was a local landmark. spend days on it. Myron was a very precise his life. His late work is his best, his other He was a nice painter in the Gothic style. individual. He only painted two pictures a work had a lot of academic elements. He There were a lot of people like that there, year, and you would go in and see the same used to paint a picture a day. amazing old-timers. painting that had been on the easel for three Hofmann was always spirited and always At that time the Chrysler Museum was years, and he would be adjusting it. He pontificating in his very nice way. We used formulated and Mr. Chrysler was usually in would change the curve a sixteenth of an to all go over to watch his classes, listen to attendance. Chrysler actually had a very inch, and for three weeks he would look at his spiel, and it was true that his students open attitude to contemporary art, he it, and then it would go back to where it could barely understand his critiques. The bought a few things from the HCE Gallery, had been! Incredible obsession! Incredible!! artists used to just pluck out phrases that but not anything from me at my little em- Also Bultman, and Leo Manso and would encourage them. But he was never porium. He put on some interesting shows Tworkov, whom we showed at Castelli really discouraging to anybody, he never when he was operating his museum. He Gallery. His work was an offshoot of really demeaned anybody's achievements. showed some classics, but there were a lot abstract expressionism, but a lyrical style. He always gave them some kind of positive of things that came into his collections that Then he went into these tonality pictures, feelings, but he was not what you might call were not bona fide works of art. He show- which were very handsome works. ed them too and there was a lot of tur- The same coteries turned up for every moil about it. He was considered the social event. It was a very intimate big force of destiny, the great tycoon family community. Jan Muller was " We knew everybody's who could liberate everybody from one of the artists we showed in the girlfriends, all the spouses, poverty. But all along he thought the Hanso Gallery, he was a very close main part of his collection was his friend of mine and Dick Bellamy's. all the intrigues, all the glass collection! Bob Thompson we showed there We all lived in poverty at the edge because he was a significant disciple romances. Lichtenstein was in of the world. We had to wait for a of Jan Muller. That whole Hansa Provincetown with me. Our first social event, an opening at a gallery, group turned up in Provincetown also. to eat. They were strenuous times, but George Segal, occasionally, Alfred marriages broke up the same you could live cheaply. There was Leslie, Lucas Samaras, John always somebody giving a dinner par- Chamberlain. Mary Frank and her month. I remember walking ty. Lobster was so cheap, you could first husband, Robert Frank the the beach with Roy, saying, always have a lobster party. I was the photographer. We made a movie there. only one making a living, who had Robert Frank was the cinemato- "God Almighty! This is the a job. Everyone else was an artist. I grapher and I was the director. It was used to have to feed all my friends, the hilarious! In '64 we had a cottage in most stressful thing imaginable! classic starving artist syndrome. The Truro, now owned by Carmen Cicero. What turmoil! " art world hadn't developed the Richard Smith was there then, a momentum it has now, where British painter. We sublet his house everyone finds some level to succeed which had been the Truro railroad sta- on. There were no grants, no big tion, a wonderful little place. Smith had easily assimilated. You just couldn't make group shows. I remember Oldenburg lived achieved some real momentum in Britain it out, with his heavy German accent. And in a basement on the lower east side in New with his kite-like structures. He did a lot of he was deaf besides, so you had to yell. I York, Jim Dine was a slave. Oldenburg's commission work. remember he was always there, whenever sculptures sell for two or three million Larry Rivers was the last of the bohe- it was an arts occasion. He was very, very dollars now, Jim Dine's paintings for three, mians, one of the most vivid personalities pleasant and everybody enjoyed his four hundred thousand! Unbelievable! of the set. We knew everybodys girlfriends, presence. He had a real glowing spirit. The Everybody turned up there at least one all the spouses, all the intrigues, all the image of him is really clear in my mind. He time or another. Not of long duration, but romances, all the families breaking up and was extremely encouraging to younger ar- they all showed their face there. You had to everything like that. Lichtenstein was in tists, but he very much dominated a lot of look in and see your friends there. It was Provincetown with me. Our first marriages them also. His method of teaching and his the place to go, a destination of real broke up the same month! We com- style was so vivid that artists became over- consequence-the only one on the east miserated with each other. I remember whelmed by it. In the late '60s, you saw coast, actually, outside the city. There was walking the beach with Roy, saying. "God three thousand disciples of Hans Hofmann. the Maine school, but they were all pain- Almighty! This is the most stressful thing Everyone was using his push-pull colors. ting rocks and lobster traps. The Hamptons imaginable! What turmoil!" I had a son, he Anyone working in bright buoyant colors were really just beginning then. The il- had two boys and his career was just get- was a Hofmann disciple. lustrious dealers turned up too in those days. ting under way. He has a very sweet person- There were a lot of old-timers living there Sam Kootz, because he visited with Hof- ality. Tom Wesselman is the only one of who worked in traditional styles, and they mann. I don't think Sidney Janis ever turn- that group that I still see regularly. We still were fairly antagonistic to the more recent ed up, but Martha Jackson, Betty Parsons, show his work at OK Harris sometimes. developments, so there was a lot of inter- Peggy Guggenheim, Mrs. Poindexter did, I used to see Hofmann all the time. He nal strife and stress. There used to be a lot the old timers, you know. Most of them are was a wonderful person, much loved, an im- of turmoil at the meetings at the Art not around any more. portant landmark. He had to teach to make Association if somebody's work came in The whole art scene is very political, as a living, his work didn't sell all that well. that was contrary to some body's. convic- you know. In the old days, it was more

Provincetown Arts 1990 30 fragmented, there were more factions. So Art is our life. You may think I practice many proto-cubists and post-cubists and law, but it's just a sideline. We spent half our painters of various schools who had their honeymoon money on art. We were very own litde coteries; schools dedicated to a interested in it, but didn't understand particular point of view, so they attracted anything, we had sort of fallen into it. Then students with the same viewpoint. It wasn't we went off to the army in Germany. We quite congealed yet, but now it's ferocious. went to Venice and saw the Peggy Gug- There's money and there're personalities. genheim collection and when we came back The whole second generation, the ones that in '56 we reestablished relations with Ivan. I grew in with, when I was writing art My parents had a home in Falmouth and citicism first and then as a dealer, these peo- we would go up to Provincetown, we would ple stayed in my life, in the main current go to see Ivan in New York. He was in- of my daily life. troducing us and trying to tell us about con- temporary art. Also I was friendly with LEWIS POLLOCK Allan Stone, who was still at law school, My wife Lynn and I took our honeymoon and he and I practiced law together in in Provincetown in '54. We met Boris Boston. Then he went off to New York and Margo, and his wife Jan Gelb, and they took was also trying to teach us about contem- us in and showed us their home in the porary American art from a totally different dunes. We bought a Margo painting and a point of view. Those two people we have Margo print from them directly, and that us- been friendly with ever since. ed up a hundred of the two hundred dollars My wife and I and Ivan and another for our honeymoon. So we came home a friend of ours became partners in the gallery jan Muller and week early. I guess we met Ivan about that in Provincetown, and the idea was that with Mary Frank in time. · whatever profits we would make we would Provincetown, 1957.

Provincetown Arts 1990 31 buy the art we were showing. Well, we expensive. We had a show for Lucas Oldenburg, though he did do some more of didn't make any profits, in fact we only sold Samaras. Ivan hung the show and Lucas those flags that summer. He didn't have any a few paintings. Nobody cared muchi we didn't like it and he rehung it. Lucas babysat money for canvas, or leather, or whatever also sold locally made blueberry jam and our gallery, too. Later, Ivan reminded him he was going to go on to work with. water pistols. We located the gallery right of the time he worked for us, and he said, Ivan was in on that transaction. He in the Mews, which was just being built "I never did work for you." They argued, thought Jim Dine, who was in his early 20s that summer, right across from the church and Lucas said, "I helped you, but I don't con- then, was going to be a good painter. Ivan which became the Chrysler Museum. So sider that I worked for you, 'cause you never certainly has a great eye. He thought Lucas lots and lots of people came in. It was very, paid me!' We didn't have any money to pay Samaras was going to be good. We like very active as far as audiences went, but him even from his own show! Ivan's eye a lot. We continue to have our nobody bought. It was a very enjoyable summer. It was disputes, but he's mostly right. His batting Ivan wanted to call the gallery OK Har- Ivan's opinion that the gallery could have average is probably better than anyone else ris. He was still working at Castelli's as been located anywhere in Provincetowni we in America over the long haul. director, but he had an idea of having his didn't need that much traffic. He thought own gallery even then. He didn't go on his if anybody was going to buy, they would own until '69, but in '63 we registered the buy because they knew Ivan, and not from "Webought a major name OK Harris Massachusetts. It's still just stumbling into the gallery. I believe he registered in my name, I think. I kid Ivan was 98% right. We might have sold one or Lichtenstein from Ivan at about it from time to time. Ivan made up two things to somebody else, but people a great big rubber stamp: OK ART, it said. came to Provincetown because they were Castelli for $300 in '61, and Henry Geldzelder, who was very friendly looking for Ivan and what Ivan was doingi they kept doubling the price with Ivan, was a heavy-set kind of guy. Ivan we could have been located in any part of stamped him on his tummy: OK ART He town. Hirshhorn came to town and of Lichtensteins every year. was a living ad for us! Chrysler was in towni they would buy things for a couple of hundred dollars and I pointed out to them that get major works. Nobody bought anything from us. if they kept doing that, in We used to go to the A House a lot. Reg- 30 years the prices would gie Cabral certainly had great works on the \Vall. He used to have these upside-down be in the mi!licns, and they crates to direct the light from the ceiling. I think they were just plain open crates. agreed. That was what they Perhaps the art didn't survive the abuse it got. One night there was a fight with Nor- were aiming for. And man Mailer at the A House. That probably that's what happened; We were showing Lichtenstein and Kline wasn't uncommon. and Lucas Samaras, whatever Ivan brought Provincetown always had a lively and they were right:' up from Castelli. Prices were very pleasant soda! scene, fairly unique, it was reasonable. Kline had just died in '62 and always nice to see that you could have a dif- you could get a nice Kline for a thousand, ferent kind of soda! scene, without any con- fifteen hundred dollars, our highest priced frontation for the most part. People accepted Yes, Ivan can see the future. As a matter stuff. The Johns' or the Lichtensteins were each other. The kind of art we dealt in of fact, I took Ivan to Russia in the fall of a lot cheaper. We had a very good time. We nobody ever liked. I used to bring art to my '88 to lecture at the University of Moscow had very nice shows and at the end of the office, but my partners would make me take and the Ministry of Culture and to show summer, we were able to acquire a few it away, wondering why I was so crazy slides. I think he was the first one to do that. things, some by way of gifts, and a few by when I seemed so normal otherwise. Our It was really a stunning visual experience way of paying the artist a few dollars rather social friends were the same way. We were for many of the artists. Ivan answered ques- than just shipping the stuff back. We lost buying things from Ivan or Castelli. In 1960 tions about how the art market works in all our money, though! we bought, I think, the first Oldenburg. He America. They were very curious about The response from the public was very used a mackerel barrel and he made a flag that, as they were just beginning to consider negative. The police raided us once because hammered togetheri it was a wooden flag. the commercialization of their works, and we had a really timid little picture of a lady We also bought a Jim Dine that same day, had very little idea about how it worked. on a horse, a watercolor, in the window on and a painting from a guy named Bob Ivan enlightened them as only Ivan could Commerdal Street. I think the artist's name Thompson, who died a couple of years afrer do. was Adele Weber. I mean today it could be that in Paris. We still have all three of those. In those early days, it was always a very in Life magazine, or anywhere. We didn't They were all less than a hundred dollars fragile market. When we first met Ivan, even think it was bad then, it was just a nice and Oldenburg didn't even sign that work. there were probably only two or three ar- little drawing. But those were the good old I think he was working as a dishwasher. But tists who could earn a living from painting days. he came to my house about ten years ago in America. We tried to buy young up-and- We did sell one or two Lucas Samaras' and and felt that he ought to sign it, so he did- coming artists before their prices went to the Roz Drexlers-she became a playwright "Claes OldenburgJ' and dated it 1960, Jasper Johns level. We still do. We bought later-and a few people from Castelli. I don't which was very nice of him, because cer- a major Lichtenstein from Ivan at Castelli think we sold any Klines or anything that tainly nobody would think of it as a Claes for three hundred dollars in '61, and they

Provincetown Arts 1990 32 kept doubling the price of Lichtensteins at his home, very early in the '60s, or late every year. I pointed out to them that if they '50s. I bought our first Chamberlain from kept doing that, in 30 years the prices would Ivan and Leo in '59, even though at the time be in the millions, and they agreed. That I thought it was very tough, hard to take. was what they were aiming for. And that's Now it seems mild compared to what you what happened; they were right. see today. Ivan never cared if something was painter- I wish I could tell you more about Prov- ly. Lichtenstein certainly wasn't painterly. incetown, but it was just a moment in time, That was the difference between Ivan and a magical moment. our friend Allan Stone. Allan insisted that an artist had to know how to draw and how to stretch a canvas. Ivan didn't care about any of that. Ivan just cared that an artist was making a powerful statement, an important statement. Allan thought a person should have an ability to paint. And they were both right. There was plenty of room for all points of view. Both of those dealers were able to identify important artists. But it was very hard for everybody involv- ed in the early years, not just the dealers, but the collectors too. The stuff that we were selling in Provincetown was looked at with jaundiced eyes. You had to be very ec- centric to even consider putting money in- to something like that. We all did it because we had to, it was a passion. And we still have it. It's a guiding force. It's nice to see that someone you had faith and confidence in did grow and develop a career and we were able to be of some assistance when the artist really needed it. We got a Bob Moskowitz painting on a window shade from Ivan. I have a whole bunch of Peter Hutchinsons at home. We handled him at the gallery, some block prints, and a thing that he hammered together. It's a really big construction of wood and a piece of an automobile engine. And Tony Vevers; Lynn and I met him and really liked his stuff, and we bought a couple of paintings from him