STATE LIBRARY OF J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 664/8

Full transcript of an interview with

BETTY FISHER

on November 2002

By Moyna Carter

Recording available on CD

Access for research: Unrestricted

Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library OH 664/8 BETTY FISHER

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

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J.D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION, STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA: INTERVIEW NO. OH 664/8

Interview with Betty Fisher recorded by Moyna Carter in November 2002 at ...... in South Australia, for the State Library of South Australia’s Life Experiences of Aboriginal Women Oral History Project.

TAPE 1 SIDE A

And the reason I asked for it was because I suddenly realised all these women were getting very old, and if they’re not taped soon we won’t have them any more and it will be too late. So to write the history of the Council is something that I promised faithfully that I would do. Now, it was going to be in the whole history of her life, but it seemed now to me better to take the Council experience out of the history of Gladys’ life because it doesn’t only concern Gladys, it concerns women from the , from the , from the Nurrungar, women from the Mid-North, women from Port Lincoln who were at the Council, at the Aboriginal Women’s Council – or the Council of Aboriginal Women of South Australia, CAWSA. So the CAWSA experience is hugely important to record before all of them go away and become too old to remember or too old to be recorded, or – – –.

What was CAUSA again?

Council of Aboriginal Women of South Australia.

Oh, right.

That’s the initials at the head of every word. (with emphasis) Council of Aboriginal Women of South Australia, CAUSA.

Yes.

Now, Glady also went as representative over to the Federal Aboriginal Council meetings. The women initiated the establishment of the first women’s refuge, the first women’s health centre, the first Aboriginal kindergarten, the first legal rights centre, and they initiated a whole series of lessons that those women took on public speaking. They actually took lessons in public speaking, and they went to – you’ll read in the minute book that they went to so many organizations, they kept on getting requests for speakers. So they employed at one stage to be a sort of field worker, and Ruby was supposed to turn up and give a speech on what

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the Council was all about. And Gladys went out speaking all over the place, and she was in high demand, speaking engagements everywhere. University, colleges, all over the place, plus umpteen church organizations. And business organizations and all sorts of groups. And these women also undertook the establishment of an art group and they had a big art display down at the College at Underdale, and I went there and bought a painting by Rosalie Anderson, way back in those days. And that was to support the women, you see. And they sold madly, all those paintings, as they always do. And the whole purpose of this was to raise money, because they were not funded to a great degree. They got a grant from the federal government, but they were not funded to the degree that they could have been funded to keep going with all the things. And they got together in the first instance because they were very worried about what was happening to their kids, very worried about the direction the kids were taking. Very worried about no initiatives to keep kids on the straight and narrow and keep them out of mischief and trouble, and so on. And it’s still needed to happen, it still needs to happen. And so what I’m hoping that I will do here is to set down all the things that Glady gave me and put it into a history of the Council of Aboriginal Women of South Australia, and I promised her I’d do that. But what I’m hoping you will do is to not only go round and record these women, let me quote you from your tape recordings, is let me quote just a little bit here and there of what these women say, then you take the whole thing, what you do, you interview them, then maybe you go and interview their daughters or their granddaughters, and you make a whole study of how the work of the Council of Aboriginal Women of South Australia was a forerunner to so many things.

What about the daughters and that don’t have knowledge of it?

Well, this is the thing. ‘Would you like to hear a tape recording of your grandmother, of your great-aunt, or of your aunt?’ And they’ll all say, ‘Yes,’ and so you play that to them, then afterwards you interview them about how they feel about that tape recording and how they feel about their own people and how does it affect them in that way, and how does it affect their whole attitude to the history of

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women’s struggle in the Aboriginal community to do better things for their kids and all that sort of thing. Okay?

So once you actually finish doing the actual people that were on it –

Yes.

– further down the line it’s actually talking to the – – –.

You don’t have to make it a lot of people – say, ten to twelve people and their descendants and comments from them would make a very, very satisfactory book. There’s a hundred and forty-plus women on that list. Now, only half of those might be still around able to be talked to, and only a fraction of those might be still alive, I don’t know until we find out whether they’re still going. But their daughters or their granddaughters or their aunts or their nieces or nephews – well, nieces – (coughs) they might know. So from one person you’ll hear, ‘Well, you should go and talk to So-and-so, you should go and talk to So-and-so.’ That’s how it goes on. And you’ll have to limit yourself, otherwise you’re going to write a book about (laughs) five hundred pages long. I mean, you could go on to make a very, very important in- depth study of this, or you could simply present the picture of these people working for the Council, how the Council worked, what they achieved and how it affected the legislation in South Australia – which is very important, especially when you get to the time when they had the vote in 19 – what was it? – ’67 the vote, wasn’t it, for Aboriginal people to get the vote and to get the right to do all these things and so on. So you come to that situation and you’ll find certain women did a great deal more than others for the vote. For instance, the one I told you about – what’s her name? Just turn that off for a second, I’ll try and remember her name. (break in recording) Yes, well, Maud Thomas, for instance, she was the one who everybody admits, ‘Yes, Maud worked harder than almost anybody to rally people about voting “Yes” for the Referendum.’ That was one of the very few referendums which passed, which was a huge number of people across Australia who voted “Yes”, that it’s about time Aboriginal people got those rights, you see. And that was quite extraordinary – – –.

Oh, right. Do you want one of these?

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All right, yes, if you’re giving them away. We’re smoking like chimneys here. (laughter) Well, now, the thing is that we got to the situation where all the issues became part of the business of the Council and so they had to choose what they’d go with. And the minutes sort of indicate that, but the minutes are not very full. But there’s enough in there that certainly outlined what they were doing, and especially the other papers. And that paper I showed you, which outlines the philosophy of the Council, why it was set up and what for. And this appealed to so many women. They came in and they were so active, they came from everywhere. (coughs) They had rather small headquarters at first, and they got to move. There was a fellow called Miller in the public service, and he was exceptionally useful and helpful, and he got them larger premises. But they should have had, at that stage, they should have had the sort of grant that would have got them just everything within ...... rooms and it didn’t happen, because it was all – – –. This, the Council of Aboriginal Women of South Australia, was doing a first. Nothing else like it was operating anywhere in Australia, so it was all new ground. But it was very obvious – Glady could see it as clearly as can be, and she constantly approached and made friends with people who had not only the capacity to assist the Council, but the capacity to change the legislation. She made great friends with Don Dunstan, she was great friends – well, he was Premier at the time and he gave her his number and said, ‘Ring me any time.’ So when she went to apply for permission to get a permit for drinking at the first – the first application to have alcohol at an Aboriginal event, she had to go and apply for it. And that’s a story in itself. She had to go about four or five times before she got it because they were messing her about. But anyway, she got it. And she rang up Don Dunstan, she said, ‘I’m going to apply for the permit, and,’ she said, ‘you might find me in jail.’ (coughs) He said, ‘Ring me up if you’ve got any problems.’ Well, she fought on and she got it.

Good.

Yes. But hers was a battle – a constant, constant battle. But she was backed up by all these tremendously enthusiastic women.

That’s good, isn’t it.

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And they all think of themselves as being right on the front line with Glady at the time. They all think of themselves as part of the group. And they all worked well in the group. They were fantastic. Right at the very beginning the activity and the rate and the feeling – the rate of activity and the feeling of co-operation, really excitement, among them was tremendous.

That’s really good.

And it sort of pushed them along to do things that Aboriginal women had never thought of doing like, as I say, learning how to do public speaking, learning how to assemble art and crafts ready for a sale to raise money. I mean, they’d all participated in cooking and those sorts of things for raising money, and obviously all of them had a great deal of artistry about them, but they’d never joined together as a women’s group to really send it forward.

How did you run the group then?

Well, as I say, I’ve got – in the minutes it always says something like ‘There was the Chair, Chairperson, or the President and nine others, the President and fifteen others, the President and eleven others’ at the time. They always –

......

– they always had a good group going. But when it gives a list of who helped with the trading table, well, there’s a list of about twenty women.

So anything up to twenty women were involved.

At any one time. But altogether, as I say, there was over a hundred and forty women who were involved at one time or another in the ..... group.

Over the years of ’68 to ’73.

It was a first. It was a groundbreaker, the first time that Aboriginal women had done it. And it was really terrific, they got some very good reactions, and they were very excited and very – their whole feeling of enthusiasm carried them along all the way.

So this would really be part of, really, the Aboriginal Women’s Council, wouldn’t it?

Oh, yes, yes. And, as I’ve said to you –

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So what would it actually be, like a picture and then all the information about the person and their commitment to the Aboriginal Council?

That’s the one I’m writing, but the one you write will be characters – I don’t mean characters as characters, I mean you can write about the women who made this ..... That might be the best sort of title for you: Women who made this ....., women who belonged and worked in the Aboriginal Women’s Council, and some of their descendants, and you can do it that way. Then you’ll have your ..... photos, you’ll have – you know, the photos of their descendants, anyone who wants to give you their photos and so on. So that’s –

So will that actually be – because there will be a lot of other stuff that they will actually probably talk about – so will that be sort of like talking about where they were born and things like that?

Yes, yes, yes.

They’d all be involved, and –

Yes.

– their life, and bearing children and all that?

Yes.

Will that all be put into that as well, or –

Yes.

– just about the Aboriginal Women’s Council?

No, no, no. You put everything in your book, everything. I’m engaged in just the Council. You put in everything, the Council and –

Other bits and pieces.

– ‘This is what led up to me joining the Council, my concern for the children,’ or every one of them said the same thing: ‘The concern that I had was for our kids.’ Every one of them said that. They all got together at Glady’s and decided to form the Council. She was in bed crook at the time, and they all got together and had a meeting around her bed, and they all decided to form the Council.

Where did it first start? Point Pearce, was it?

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No, Gladys Elphick’s at 30 York Terrace, Ferryden Park. That’s where the idea – – –.

What about the one when the grandmother – she said it was on Point Pearce.

Oh, well, that was the Council that existed at Point Pearce.

Oh, there is a smaller one.

They all had a council and then there was a council at the Aboriginal – what they call a ‘home station’ at Point Pearce, ‘home station’ at Point – used to be Point McLeay .....

Oh, right.

‘Home station’ at Berri, ‘home station’ at all the other centres. They all had one.

But this one was here in , was it?

But this was quite different from those councils. This was women voluntarily coming together without any government control or telling them what to do, and they got a grant from the federal government to run it.

Oh, right.

For a field worker and research. That’s Eddie Masseur was the first employee, and then they employed what’s her name, Hammond, and they also employed Cherie Watkins. She was employed by the Council –

As a paid position, was it?

– yes. But it wasn’t – you know, the payment was too small in those days compared with what we would think of this work now, but yes, certainly – I understand from Shirley that Cherie Watkins was paid some of the work for being the Secretary. So the grant they had had to be chopped up between them, obviously.

Oh, right. And why did it finish?

Well, it stopped – it didn’t actually stop; it never has actually closed. What happened was that the men said that because they were having such success, the men said, ‘Well, what about us? Why don’t we just have an Aboriginal people’s centre so that the men can join in?’ And they went on and on about this, and there were all sorts of moves about including the blokes. And so, in the end, they didn’t actually

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close down the Council. It was never closed because there’s a vote towards the end of the time, before they got the building which was in Wakefield Street – that two- storey building in Wakefield Street –

Oh yes, yes, Aboriginal place, yes.

– yes, that brick building. Wasn’t ideal – not that beautiful place they’ve got now, but it was next to the – there’s the Conservation Centre, there was a commercial place, and then there was number one-twenty –

..... it was called, wasn’t it?

– no, no, no. The one that’s there now is called that. This was just simply –

Yes, I remember the old one, yes.

– the Aboriginal Centre. The Centre, we used to call it. There was a committee set up and so on, and some of the minutes of that early time are in there before they actually got the grant, got the building and everything changed. Because the men came in. And of course a lot of the women now say the Council should never have closed down, it should have kept on going, (laughs) and there should have been the Council and the building as well, and the women should have kept on doing their stuff.

Oh, right. And that’s where they actually first held it, was it? The place in Wakefield – – –?

No, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. The first meeting was in a little place in Grenfell Street.

Oh, right.

Yes. The first meeting – it was a very run-down place they first got, and then they moved to this place in Grenfell Street, and – it’s all in the minutes. Unfortunately, the first – that starts in ’68, doesn’t it? That’s the minutes. But don’t forget it started before that, it started in about ’67 or ’66, and the minute book is not complete. Somebody went off with the first sets of minutes and I haven’t got them.

You’ve only got from 1968 onwards.

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So the minute books only from ’68 to ’72. But you should say that the Council itself probably started up in about ’65, ’66, ’67, and I’ve still got to pinpoint that, and it’ll be in the records so don’t worry, I’ll find it all right.

Oh, right. Yes.

But they were talking about it for a while before they actually established it. But they wrote – they did submissions to government, they did all sorts of things. And, as I say, they started the first women’s shelter ever.

Ever.

Yes...... The first women’s shelter, the first women’s health centre, the first centre for – the first women’s art group in South Australia, Aboriginal women’s art group – and the first Aboriginal legal rights centre. All of that, all those initiatives, came from the work of the Council. That’s why it’s so important. And a lot of that, their discussions and their decisions, went towards changing some of the legislation – not enough, but it was a beginning. It was quite important. So there’s some role in why we’re talking about the Council of Aboriginal Women in South Australia! (laughter, raises voice) The message is heard (slamming sound) and understood! If that’s you rolling around up there, Glady, we’re here, we’re doing it all right. (laughter) Okay. So is that all right for a beginning, do you think?

Yes. Yes.

Now, I see you – you might change your mind over a period, you might make it something else, you might make it into a different book, but I would say Women who changed history is probably a very, very good heading for the book that you’ll do. And you get on with your publication, do all those other things that include other than just the Council. Mine is just the Council, you see?

I mean, the stuff that I might do is probably commence with the Council, but then you might find a lot of other issues in there –

Yes.

– that could be for further sort of books –

That’s right.

– further down.

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Yes.

Yes. Just could get on probably with the women – most of them probably lived on Point Pearce and might be just sort of interested in how Point Pearce was actually – start it from a women’s perspective –

Yes, yes, that sort of thing.

– and their life, which wasn’t always good, too, so –

Yes, hard times.

– and, you know, when drinking came in and how women had to actually sort of overcome that as well.

Yes, yes, all that stuff.

Yes. And domestic violence and all that sort of stuff –

Yes.

– so there’s probably lots of other things that will actually come from that as well, so it could just go on a little bit further, or go onto other things.

Yes. And now, before mine’s published, there are women who must read it first, accept it, say it’s okay, and you will want to do the same thing. You don’t want to land something on the market and then you have everybody saying, ‘You shouldn’t have put that in! You shouldn’t have put that in!’

That’s right, yes. I’ll go and meet the actual ..... community –

Yes.

– before it’s actually fixed for publishing ......

That’s right.

– and I agree with that, actually. Take it to an elder or a couple of elders – I think you probably need two, actually, one to have a look over it, get someone else to actually have a look at it. But you always seem to get, (raises voice) ‘Oh, but you should have put this in, and should have put that in!’ (laughter)

Well, then you say, ‘Okay, let’s apply for a grant for somebody to do that.’ You do this first one, a lot more things come out of it, you see?’

It’s probably worthwhile actually taking some of – giving the manuscript to a couple of names on here –

Yes.

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– so ones that you interview you could actually take it to them, have a look. Probably one of them would be a really good one to take it to would be Alice Rigney, I think.

Oh, yes.

Because she’s a very recognized elder in the community, and she’s sort of run a stall and has qualifications and everything else –

That’s right.

– and she knows what’s what.

Yes.

So she’d be a good one.

Yes. Well, you’d ..... that, and for other groups the same thing applies. The Kaurna and the Ngarrindjeri, et cetera.

Yes.

Okay?

Think I’ve got a lot of hard work! (laughs)

Well, it is. It’s a lot of hard work.

Yes, I’ll have to – can I turn this off now?

Yes.

END OF INTERVIEW.

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