LOKSABHA DEBATES TENTH SERIES (VOLV No.46) SEPTEMBER 14, 1991 FIRST SESSION
'•t.
TENTH LOK SABHA
LOK SABHA SECRETARIAT NEW DELHI CONTENTS
[T»nlhS 0riM, VoL V. Pint S»$$bn. 1991/1013 (Saka)J
No. 46, Saturday, Saptambar 14,1991/Bhadra23,1913 (Saka)
CouMNa
P^MfsLakionthaTabla 47— 49
Massagas From Rajya Sabha 50
Businasa Adviaory Coflunltaa 50-61
Sixth Report— ^doptorf
Financa(No.2)Blli.1991 51— 141
Motion to consider
Slui Manmohan SIngli 5 1-69
Ciauaea 1 |a 124 and 1 69— 114
Motion to Pass, as amended
Shri Manmohan Singh 71— 114 134-137
ShriLaiiCAdvani 114— 116 121— 123
Shri Chandra Jaat Yadav 116— 119
ShriNirmalKantiChatteijea 119-127
Shri Nathu Ram Mirdha 127— 129
Shri Gaoiga Famandaa 129— 131
Shri Bhogandra Jha 131— 133 (U)
Shri Somnalh ChaUMjM 138— 140
Motion Ra: C o l^iM of ttw Bank of Cradft and 1 4 1 - ^ Cominaroa tntsmational (Ovm-saas) Urnkad
Shri Jaamrant Singh 141— 157
Shri Dig V|ayaSif«h 158— 176
Shri Gaofga Famandas 176— 191 199-218
Shri Somnath Chattoijaa 218-237
Shri Vijay Naval Patn 237— 240
ShriChhihi)halGamit 240-243
ShriBh.Vlayal(umarRaju 243— 244
Shri Manmohan Singh 244-260
Jammu and Kashmir Budgat. 1991-92-GanarBl 264— 321 Discussion
Damands for Grants (J & K). 1991-92
i*iof. Pram Dhumal 271— 275
Shri Ayub Khan 275— 282
Shrimati Susaala Gopalan 282— 286
ShriSribaOavPanigrahi 287-290
Shri Gaoiga Famandas 290— 298
Shri Madan Lai Khurana 298-302
Shri Krishai Dutt Sulaivuri 302-305
Shri T 4 Malayan Skigh 305-308
ShriOauOayaiJbahi 308-311
ShrfA.Chariaa 311-S14 0i)
ShrilndwM 314— 316
Shri Rmwshny PraMd Singh 316-317
Shri Shantarwn Potdukhs 317— 320
Jammu and Kashmir Apprepriaiion (N o ^ Bifl, 1991 321-324
Motion to introduoa
Shri Shantaram PoldiMw 32^-323
k/lotion to oonsidar
Shri Shantaram Potdukha
Clauses 2,3 and 1 323-324
MotbntoPass
Shri Shantaram Potdukha 322-323
Shri Saifuddin Choudhuiy 323
Voluntary Daposits (bnmunites and Exampiions) 324-345 BIN
Motion to considar
Shri Manmohan Singh 324 342-344
Shri Bhagwan Sharkar Rawat 325— 328
Shri Vlas Muttamwar 328-330
ShriBhogandraJha 330-333
ShriGMhariLalBhaigma 333-334
ShriOauDiyalJoshI 334-337
ShriSudMrGiri 337-842 Ov)
C o l u m n s
Clauses 2 to 5 and 1 344-345
Mottontopass
Shri Manmohan Singh 345
Matters Under Rule 377 345--350
(I) Need to reoognise medical degrees awarded 345— 346 to Indian students by Nigeria
Shri A. Charles
(ii) Need to declare Bilaspur (Madhya Pradesh 346 University a Central University
Shri Khelan Ram Jangde
(is) Need to bring Poona-Miraj-Kblhapur railway 346— 347 section under Central Zone
ShriPrithvirajOChavan
(iv)) Need to provide adequate financial assistance 347— 348 to the Government of Uttar Prt^esh to enable it to raise per capita income upto that of nattonal level
Shri Bha^jwan Shankar Rawat
(v) Need for a separate State of Bodoland 348
Shri Satyendra Nath Brohmo Chaudhuiy LOK SABHA DEBATES
SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHCXJDHURY: Due LOKSABHA to the strike by the ONQC emptoyees. the country is incurring a heavy loss everj^y. I have come to know that the dally toss amounts to Rs. 30 crores. Due to this strike, Satuntay. Safitetrber l4.l991Sh»ka23. productton of crude oil and gas is totally 1913 ( S i ^ stopped. We produce5,60,000barrels of ol per day all over the country wherever on is produced. 27,000 million cubic metmt of gas is produced in the country. The produo- The Lok Sabha mat at Eleven of the tton of gas cylinders comes to about 50,000 Ooek per day. Now an this productton activity has come to a half. (MR SPEAKER In the ChaJrJ This strflw is taking place because of the P ’ranslatlon} inaction of the concerned authorities to con* duct proper negotiattons to conduct proper SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA (South negotiations to secure the release of their Delhi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say coHeagues who are in the captivity of the about Delhi. K was saW that.. ULFA in Assam. Some days ago, one.of their cotteagues Shri B.S.Rs4u was kMed. MR. SPEAKER : I am not giving you This hascreated afeeling of insecurity in the time. minds of the ONQC woikere in Assam. They also say that proper negotiattons are not SHRI MAOAN LAL KHURANA: You had conducted and people with proper authority saM that you wouM give me time and the are not posted there to deal with the sRua- sitting of the House has been extended for tton. There are also many questtons about two days...... the way the ULFA problem in Assam is deal with so far. They have raised serious d^jeo- ttons to the general kind of amnesty given to MR. SPEAKER : I am not ghring you the ULFA activists who were in the custody time. I am giving time to Shrl SaHuddin of the Government, without any bargain for Choudhuiy. the release of the ONGC emptoyees. This Is every serious situatton because it Is not only SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUOHURY a matter of ONGC woriters and the toes we (Katwa): Sir, we agreed that today there are Incuning everyday. Now the Finance would be no zero houiB. I am not making any Mnlster Is here. Shri Shankaranandp Is zero hour submiMon. But this is a vary standing at the gate. Why is he not corning Mrlous nattonal Issue __ Ikiterruptlenii In? He visited Assant What has he done there? We have a right to know... (Intemp- MR. SPEAKER :Tod«y I hope the senktr ttons) Sir, His not merely aquMtion of lo si^ Menter wM aUow the Junk>r Members to money. It is a question of unify and integrity niM points on whk:h they feel oonoemed. of the country. 3 SEPTEMBER 14,1991
RIsaquestion of how we tackle the ULFA been detained and it must come to the secessionisl movement In Assam. Not only rescue of the peopto who have been ab- the ONGC workers, iMit many others are ductedbytheULFAacdvltto8,othenwtoe,we aho feeling Insecure to live In Assam. Many win have thto rscurring toss on the one sWe are coming out Exortton of money Is going and on the other skto the safety to the lives on. We have to have a dlscusston on this. I and property of the citizens of thto country, thought the hon. Minister himself wouM who are working hard to eam and to add to come with a sou motu statement But in the economy of thto country, win be put in the todays 1st of Business, I do not find any danger. Therefore, the Qovemment shouM come to the rescue of these peopto. mention of 1 That Is why I amcmnpelled and constrained to raise this Issue, (tosplte our We all join to support the demand made commitment that we would not stand up by the hon. Member on the floor of the todaydurlngthe zero hour. I request you Sir House. Sir, I hope that when I am making to ask the hon. Minlsterto Inform this House thto rsference. Government wHI definitely about the situation. How tong are we going take up thto matter seriously and the hon. to suffer this heavy k>ss? How are they Minister, who to present here, win make a dealing with this situation? How are they statement In thto regard and he wBI ensure tackling the secesskmist movement led by the retoase of the abducted peopto today the ULFA. The employees and their leaders Itself, at the earliest possbto opportunity. are here. IthirAthey have met the Minister (htenvptlon^ yesterday. We woukJ ll(e to know what came out of that. I request the Minister to MR. SPEAKER; Those of you who are take the House into confidence. treated as sentor Members will not be called today. SHRI V. DHANANJAYA KUMAR (Mangatore): Sir, we fuDy support the de [TranslaUon] mand made by Shri Salfuddin Choudhury. Leaders of theenptoyees union have come SHRI MOHAN RAWLE (Bombay South and met oursentor leaders like AdvoniJi and Central): Mr. Speaker, Sir, threugh you, I Jaswant Singh J l . They have expressed wouki Ike to nanrate the probtoms being their concern about the toss that has been facedby the Maharastrlans In Maharashtra sustained. Every day the Qovemment of There to a very peculiar situation In the kMfia to tosing about Rs. 30 crores on ac country today. Wherever the publle sector count of the enfvtoyees going on strfl(e. We units are s « up under the control of the al know that thto has happened because of Central Qovemment, in allfalmessthe tocal the policy adopted by the Qovemment of peopto shouM be given 80 peroeM of the Assam In g M ^ general amnesty to the Jobs in every category in those unKs. But thto ULFA people. Thto has very severe rsper- to not happening In Maharashtra. It appears cussions and mo ara varv much fioncamad that perhaps the Central Government has about the safety of the peopto who have not tosued any dlrscttons in thto regard. As been abducted by the ULFA activities. a result there to a wktospread resentment The Government, of course, has ex- among the tocal peopto because there to a pressed its concern about thto but It has not probtom of unemptoyment atoo. Therefore, come out with concrete proposal, as to how I wouU request the Qovemment that I they are going to tackle thto problem. Gov ShouM tosue such Instructtons Immedtotely ernment shouM make a Statement on the as In al the undertakings of the Central floorof the House and It must Initiate an early Qovemment In Maharashtra, the tocal peo dtatogue wKh thera Government R H istse pto may be given 80 per cent of the Jobe In cure the rstoase of the people who have every category. BHADRA23,1913(SMK4)
[EngKBhJ Prime Minister that Shri Shankaranand Is going there. He was there for two days. We MR. SPEAKER: I wiUcallyou. Please, sit must know what Is the position. down. Sir, as you thought K very Important, that (Menupttons) Is why you altowed Shrl Choudhury to raise tt. But the Govemment Is Just sitting. There P'fanslatlon] Is no response from them on this matter.
SHRISHIVASHARANSINGH(ValshalO: Mr. Speaker, Sir, through you, Iwouldfiketo Sir. some statement must be made to draw the attention of the House and the hon. day. Let us see what Is the Intentton of the Prime Minister towards an Important Issue. Government on this matter. In Bihar the Congress Party has started an SHRI SAll^DDIN CHCXiDHURY: If he agitation against the State Government. remains silent. It wiO be misunderstood. They started this agitation on 11th of Sep* temberin Patna in the prohibited area of the SHRISOMNATHCHATTERJEErSir. he State Assembly and It is a matter regret is nodding his head. I do not know In whose that a Central Minster also took partIn it and favour he Is nodding his head. For whom? deliberately vtolated the laws. Secondly, Is It For what? you say 'yes’ or W (Intsm/p- justified for a Central Minteterto take part in ttons) He wants to stand up. an agltatkm. which Is being launched by a political party against the State Govern SHRI CHANDRA JEET YADAV ment? I wouU Ike to draw the attentton of (Azamgarh): Let the Minister rsacL Be the House and the hon. Prime Minister cause. it Is after all a very serious matter. towards these two points. I rementwr an You win agree that It Is a serious matter. incktont. when Shrl Raj Narainwasacabinet When Is he going to make a statement? At Minister, he had also vk>)ated the rule In a least, you ask him that he must come and prohibited area In Himachal Pradesh and as make a statement Let the country know a result, the then Prime Minister Cheudhary what has actually happened. We are read Charan Sbtgh had expressed his displeas ing this in newspapers, (kttofruptkua) ure against his action. The hon. Prime Min ister shouW give dartflcatlon whether there SHRI CHITTA BASU(Barasat): He met is any code of conduct for the Cabinet the representatives of the ASSTO-Assoda- Mnlstere. Through you, I woukJ Uke only to tton of Technical Officers— draw the attentkm of the House towards this. MR. SPEAKER: In this way, the oHhar Members wBI not be able to get a chance. SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN (Rosera): Because al the sentor Meirtbers. on one Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Is a very Important point wW make the speeches and the other Issue and I also support him. Mentbets wlH not have an opportunity to speak. l& glshj SHRI CHITTA BASU: Only one minute. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE Sir, Kindly Isten to me. (Boipur): Sir, you have altowed other Issues to come up. MR. SPEAKER: No. Shri Basu. You get ample time. You shouU do justice to other But MfarasONGCIsconcemed,ll8a MamhAfft also. vwy serious matter. What is the response of the Qovemmant to that? They must Indi SHRI CHITTA BASU: The hon, Mlnlsler c ia . The MbilMarwM spring and also the saM that technical emptoyeet have met SEPTEMBER 14,1991 8 hbn. Tlwy taM that th« talks have falM. hon. Members in the House are rightly agi> May I knowfrom the hon. Minister what was tatedoverthe matter, ttis aisotruethattheir the demand of the emptoyees and what was agttatton with regard to the strike by OGNC hie response ? (IntUTuption^ emptoyees isfuRy shared by me also. Unfor tunately, the OGNC is functioning in Assam ITmnsUUonJ has taken a difficult turn after the death of Shri Raiu. the Engineer of the ONGC. SHRI OAU DAYAL JOSHI (Kota): Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed there is a shortage of SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Death or petrol. (MerrvpttMW) murder?
SMV QUMAN MAL LODHA (PaH): Mr. SHRIB. SHANKARANAND: Let the hon. Speaker, Sir, In Jorhat, 50 businessmen Member Nsten to me first. I know what is had been kUnapped from their shops and death and what is munler. But we are not aie being kiled one by one. taHdng hi legafisUc terms.
PngKshJ As the House is aware, Ispenttwodays in Assam. I had a discusston with the Gov They are kept as hostages. ernor, the Chief Minister and the Members of his Cabins I also had a (fiscussion with P ’mnskakmJ the various assodattons, the emptoyees of the 0Gf4C, the workers’ Unions, the offic We had thought that afterthe faR of A.G.P. ers' assodattons and the nwmbers of the Govemment and fomiing of the Congress CooRjinatton Committee. I also met the Government the people wHI get protectkin women, the wives of the engineers of the there, but the sttuatton has become wores, ONGC. Finally, I dM have taks with the as:- agitating engineers who were sitting in a Shamiana with a photo of Raju. I couW ■Mari Badhataa Gaya, Jyon-Jyon Oava gather an impresston that afl the people W, there were In the gr^ of fear and uncertainty. Shole Urate Gaye, Jyon-Jyon The women were shedding tears because Kl." they expressed afearthat they dki not know whethertheir husbands wHi come back aHve Therefore, I wouki llw to know the steps from their woric Such a sttuatton is existing being taken to condemn such acts of ULFA. there;averytense sttuatton Is existing there. (IntemiptkMis) Of course, there has been large scale SHRI GIROHARI LAL BHARGAVA sympathy from the peopto of Assam for (Jaipur): Mr. Speaker, Sir, atong with them these engineers and the ONGC peopto. we are concerned about the businessmen There wae a sRent march in Guwahati l>y of Rajasthan also. They are very much Inteflctuals; It was a non-pdtttoal gathering afraid. They arekUnappedlnboantday light betonging to aR the poltttoal parttos. The from their shops. (Interruptions) purpose wet to express their concern for peace In Assara This large scato sympathy that has now been expressed by the peopto lEngM J of Assam, their desire for peaceful condl- MR. SPEAKER: He is on his legs to ttons In Assam does of a tong way In solving make a statement the probtom of Assara
1HE MMISTER OF PETROLEUM AND As far as I am concerned, I dU have NATURAL GAS (SHRI B. detaled talks wtth these peopto; and they SHANKARANAND): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the BHADRA23,1913(S4K4) 10 hav * axpiBSsed their desire that their first SHRI CHITTA BASU: The questton of demand Is the release of (our hostages held compensation was there. ( IntemipOon^ by the ULFA. I was satisfied with the effort made which were explained to me by the SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: It Is not on Chief Minister and the Govemment with the matter of compensation that they have regard to the release of these people, and gone on strike. Let us be dear in our minds, also the anrangement made for the safety that the conditton to strike is not compensa and security of the people of ONGC. When tion. That is not the matter. Their first de I was there, the very day-1 do not know mand Is the release of the people and their whether It was on the previous day- all the safety. ( Interrupttons) political parties In Assam have appealed to the Chief Minister in writing to take the I had talked to the Chief Minister and the necessary steps for the release of these Chief Minister has offered that everything people. that shouM be done forthe release of these people would be done, at his end, and he SHRIJASWANT SINGH (Chittorgarh): said that even forexchange of the hostages, WouM you show me the courtesy of just not only releasing one after the other. If the yleMIng for a minute? Thank you very much. hostages are released, at one and the same We are very grateful to the hon. Minister for time the ULFA’S that are heki under the so graphically informing us about the situa TADA can also be released, but simultane tion in AssanL V/e are suffteiently aware of ously . Because once the ULFA had trteked. what the prevailing situation is. Our collec during the negotiations they killed the engi tive concern, however, is to know from you neer. They have iosttheircredibitity asfaras as to what actton the Govemment Is talking this aspect is concerned. So. the conditton to resolve this Issue, not a description of the that the Chief Minister has put Is. * Yes. we situation in Assam. What are the precise are for taking any action for the release of steps that the Govemment is talking to the people, but if they think that their people resolve this Issue, which is costing us Rs. 30 should be released, it should be done simul crores a day and It has already resulted In taneously and not othenvlse. This offer one death and so many people are still stands.* According to me, the Chief Minister kMnapped. what steps are you taking? said that this offer stands. I hope that the House will appreciate the action taken by the SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: I thought it Govemment In this regard. is advisable to explain to the House the agitation in detail rather than... I had talked to the offtoers yesterday. The Central Committee Memt>ers of the SHRiSOMNATHCHATTERJEE:Sothat ONGC met me yesterday. I had very de It is known that the Government also tailed talks wtth them. I found them to be undrstands. very agitated. In the mood of agttatton per haps, they have not been able to come to SHRI B.SHANKARANAND; Thereafter, grips with certain conditions which demand I had a meeting with the assoclatkm of the an objective discussion. Though they have ONGCemployees. As ItoM earlier, the main sakl that they were not willing to caN off the demand of the associatton Is the release of strike yesterday, I am happy to Inform the the hostages and the ONGC engineere who Housethat they are again meeting me today were heW as hostages by the ULFA. Of and I hope that they wW cooperate with us In further creating conditions for the safe couree, they have put some othercondlttons release of the officere who are hekI hos lorthe tirlk»— the change of transfer policy tages. ol the employees; to provkte security ar- langement for the emptoyees and many SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: How other things which are not directly con tong win they have to wait? For how many cerned with the present strike. days have they been kMnapped? 11 SEPTEMBER 14.1991
SHRIB. SHANKARANANO: The meet (Intentions) ing 1$ bekig held today. P'lanslatlonJ SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: The seriousness of the Government’s action SHRICHHEDIPASWAN (Sasaram): Mr. must be seen. Speaker. Sir, we are also members of the House but we are not getting opportunity to speak. (Intentions) SHRI B. SHANKARANANO: Do not cre ate problems for the safety of the people. MR. SPEAKER: I will give you tine to speak. Time can be given only one by one. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: I am Please take your seat. not creating problems for their safety. But the Government has a responsibility. (Inter- SHRI RAJVEER SINGH (Aonia): Mr. njfjittons) Speaker, Sir. on 13th of September, an MR. SPEAKER: Kumari Vimla Vemia. Ayurveda Conference took place in Kathmandu, Nepal, In which several coun [TranslaUon] tries participated. The Indian deiegatton was led by the Health Minister of Uttar Pradesh, KUMARI VIMLA VERMA (Seoni): Mr. Dr. Dinesh Jauhari. On the 12th the formali Speaker.Sir, agroupof about 100 padyatris ties of checking etc. were completed at the was going to Sri Peramtxidurfrom Amethi in Alr-port at 4.00 pm for going to Kathmandu, Uttar Pradesh to pay homage to immortal but he was asked to sit in the V.LP. k>unge. martyr Shri Rajiv Gandhi. On the 11th, this The flight was scheduled for 6.30 p.m. He group was passing through the Seoni district was toM that the flight was cancelled. At in Madhya Pradesh, where some unsocia about 8.00 or 8.30 p.m., he was provktod ble elements attacked them in San&i Dongri accommodation in hotel Centaur and was Village. Three of the Padyatris were injured tokJ that the time of departure of the flight In the attack. They gave a symbolic dhama was yet to be deckled. For the entire night, there. Shri Jagdish Piyush, who was leading he was toW that the flight wouW leave in a this group of Padyatris and all the villagers few minutes. But yesterday at 10 o’ctock in and people of the district condemned this the morning, he was toM that the flight has attack on this peaceful padyatra. This inci been canceled so he also cannot go as he dent took place as a result of not taking any was not permitted to go, although he had strict actkMi in cases of vtoience and armed already been granted permission. One of booth capturing, whk;h took place during the the reason, for not altowing Dr. Dinesh last elections and a particular party is in Jauhari to go to Kathmandu may be that he volved in these incidents. The Madhya was representing not only Uttar Pradesh, Pradesh Government shouM get this inci but the entire country. It appeare to me that dent investigated and shouMtake stringent some people in the Central Government dW action against the culprits, it should also not ll not be represented at the World Ayurveda It was the turn of Shri Advani. He has not yet Conference as the delegation did not go finished his submisston, and all of you have there. The Government should teH us as to started speaking. Whatever he is saying is who is theguilty and who stopped him. It has not audible to us. This is not a good attitude. tarnished the image of India. The Govern Like all other membere he shouM also get a ment stopped hlmt>ecause he wasaBhartlya chance. The Govemment must have taken Janata Party representative and a Minister note of the issue you have raised here. How of Health in that Party’s Government. What ever if the Govemment wants to take some was reason for stopping him? How could he actton on that matter, it depends on them. be permitted for the same later on after the But if you continue with a particular issue in inauguration was over ? this manner, other membere wouhl not be able to get a chance to speak. Shri Chhedi Mr. Speaker, Sir, through you I would like Paswan. to know from the Govemment the reasons of his detention for 24 hours at the airport. (Inten^jtlons) I wouM also ll(e to know about the nature of change in the drcumstanoes in whteh he SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA (Madhu banO; was permitted to go. Perhaps the only thing I am not saying a new thing. Only thing that' that prompted this action was political mal I want to say Is that this is not a matter ice because they might have felt it as to why pertaining to partteular political party. The a Health Minister of>the Bhartiya Janata Govemment shouki make a statement stat Party shouM represent India? That was the ing the reasons as to why we couM not only reason for which he was detained. partk:ipate in the workl conference on Ayurveda. This is really a serious matter. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Govemment shouU out with a statement on this important come MR. SPEAKER: You may ask me to issue. It is something very disgraceful. (In terruptions) In that conference, no one rep direct the Govemment to make a reply but resented that very country wherefrom if I..... Ayun^eda had originated. So this matterhas assumed great significance. Sir, please di (Interrufaions) rect the Govemment to make a statement today Itself on this important issue. {Inter AN HON. MEMBER: The Central Gov ruption^ emment Is meting out a step motherly treat ment to the Uttar Pradesh Govemment. {Intem^lons) SHRI ANNA JOSHI (Pune): Is it proper to politicise such issues (bitenruptions) SHRI GUMANMAL LOOHA: It is so be cause there is other party's Govemment. SHRI TARACHAND KHANDELWAL (Chandi Chowk): Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is an insuR to India (Intorruptions) SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI: I was also to participate in it but at the eleventh hour, I SHRI VUAY NAVAL PATIL (Erendol): dropp^ the klea Some defect might have developed in the SHRI CHHEDI PASWAN: Mr. Speaker, aeroplane, {htorruptlonsli Sir, the congress workere are continuing MR. SPEAKER: Please, take your seat their agHatton against the Bihar Govem I have already saU that now only, these ment since 11 September. They sought the members whodo not raise any Issue, win get permission of the speaker to hoM a meeting an opportunity to raise their issues. He in the restricted area of the Bihar VMhan ■lowed Shri RaJbeerSinghto speak though Sabha premises which was to be addTMSod 15 SEPTEMBER 14.1991 16 by a Union Cabinet Minister, Shri Rajesh worst hiL No conveyance and mode d Pilot. But the Vidhan Sabha S^ai Apa rt from this, there is an acute power people have been affected by these dis shortage In that area. Sonietimes, power eases and 1800 people have already died. supply remalnscut off continuouslyforthree Mostly Harljans. Adivasis and those belong days. About three days t>ack, two young ing tothe tower strata of thesodety, who live men lost their lives, as they come Into In remote and hill areas are the victims of contact with live wire. Therefor, it is my these diseases. People have stopped going humble submission to the Union Govem- from one village to another and they are mentthat it should provide compensation of even afraM of taking the corpse to the one lakh rupees each to the families of the crematton ground. People have stopped deceased. I have received 11,000 com performing last rites and are fleeing the plaints from Tttf constituency alone. DeihPs villages. Agricultural work has been affected bureaucracy has beconw deaf and they as a fall of fear has enguHed the villages. doni respond to the thousands of com plaints. they receive. I fear that if the prob The District Administration and doctore lems of the people of Delhi, especially of are leaving no stone unturned to contabt the those in East Delhi are not solved, they may diseases, but the situatton Is going out Of rise in revolt against the Government If the their control, due to lack of Doctors, other Government wants to establish peace in Para-Medical staff, medical equipments. that area. It should immediately hold elec Medicines and transport facilities. The State tions to the Municipal Corporation. As an Government is being constantly informed 01 M.P. lwoifc19houreaday. Youcanimagine the worsening situatton, but the situatton is the magnitude of the problem. It is my getting out of control, as a result of the State humble submission that the Government QovemmenTs indifferent attitude. There Is should immediately hold elections to the acute shortage of drinking water In many dvic bodies, Iweping in mind the difficulties villages and people are dependent upon faced by the people, especially those living dirty watere of rivere and ponds. The situa m East Delhi. tion is deteriorating, day after day. The Union Government shouto provkie aH as felons are not available in [)elhi. Argu sistance to check the situation and also put ments and quarrels are a regular sight be pressure on the State Government to act fore every ration shop. If at all sugar or rice swiftly, the situatton demands immediate Is available. It Is full of dusL The situation in actton. Gastro-enterttis has created havoc East Delhican only be described as ’Hellish’ in many villages of the sakU tehslL... {Inter- Through you. I wanted to bring these lupUons) In village JanganJ also, many peo- mattere before the House. I am thankful to pto have been affected by the disease and youforprovkflng mean opportunity to speak one person has already dtod. Similariy, two after two moria».{lntom^lonsii persons have died of diarrhoea In Dondki. Cholera has claimed five lives in the past [EngBsh] four days in vUiage Amandula (Infe/rup- tfofls) The number of people dying of this MR. SPEAKER; Only the statement of disease is increasing by leaps and bounds. Shrl Bhawani Lai Verma wIN go on record. {htenufOlont) (kn»ri4M)n8) [English] ITanalatkmJ MR. SIPEAKER; I will altow some of you today and some of you day after tomorrow. 8HRI BHAWANI LAL VERMA (Janlgir): Mr. Speaker. Sir. in the last two monthsfattf (Menuptlons) and contagious diseases UkeGastro-enterl- tls and Cholera have acquired an apMamlc SHRI NIRMAL KANH CHATTERJEE form In abnott all the villages ol Vlaipur (Dum Dum): You shouM altow us to raise District m Madhya Pradesh. About S.000 that question. 19 SEPTEMBER 14.1991 20 MR. SPEAKER: You should have de Vilaspur District, these diseases have cre> mocracy in the House also. All the tims you, ated havoc in Bastar, Raigarh and other senior Members, have been speaitlng, you districts. Therefore, I urge the Government are not allowing other Members to speak. to immediately take appropriate and neces You should have some consideration for sary action, so as to provMe relief to the others. Sit down now. affected people {IntBrrupOon^ (kHemptSons) [EngSsh] SHRINIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE : SHRI HARADHAN ROY (AsansoQ: Sir. Give us one minute.(lnterruptions). Durga Puja is the biggest and colourful mm. SPEAKER : Nirmal kantqi is not festival throughout India specially in West going to speak today. Bengal. All sections of the people irrespec tive of their caste, and religton join hands to (Intemjptlons) celebrate the festival in a befitting manner. Thus they demonstrate their solidarity, fra MR. SPEAKER: It is not going on record. ternity, integrity, knre and respect to each (Intenuptionsy other. The Labour Minister of the Govern [Tfanslatkml ment of West Bengal has recommended to all private and public sector managemenfs SHRI BHAWANI1 ^ VERMA: The peo to pay annual bonus as per previous prac ple have become so frightened of these tice within 8th Octotwr 1991, so that the diseases, that they dreadtolend their shoul woritmen could purchase their necessities der to carry even a dead tM)dy to the crema before the present high price reaches sky tion ground. Even theirf riends and relatives high inthe nraritet. Sofar, Iknow, none of the have stopped visiting them and they don't public sector units has made this payment. participate even in the funeral procession, So I wouki request the concerned Ministers fearing that they may catch the disease. to advise their respective untts to nnake the (ktterruption^ payment immediately and to avoid unnec essary labour agitation and to save the woricmen from the loot of the unscruputous As per the informatton provktod by the bus\nessmitt.(kitem^)Uonsli. District Health offfcer, most of the health centers ate finding it difficult to check the P'mnslation] epktemic, in the absence of transport facili ties. No vehtole is available m Primaty Health SHRI SANTOSH KUMAR GANGWAR Centre. Akaltara. Even In Janjgir they face (Bareilly): Mr. Speaker, Sir, homeopathic the same problem. Even I doni have one, yet we are doing our level best to check medicines are wkJely used In our country, these contagtous diseases. If vehicles are but In the last few days, their prices have available, these InfectkNis disease can be gone upto such and extent that the chemists controlled quickly and effectively. {Intemp- are charging fourtlmes the usual rates. II Is Vons) Everyday, reports are appearing in mainly because most of the homeopathic news pa^re that one epklemic Is spread medicines are imported and some medi ing, da^ by day tNJt no effective steps are cines Hke being taken. The District Health Offioer has alw Momied that the tocal adminlctratton had approached the State Government for [English] funds to prevent these diseases, but the attocatkm has been Inadequate. Apart from Mother tinctures. Dilution’s In various NOl ivCOrUoQ.r» nnnrlnrt 21 BHADRA23,1913(S4K>«) 22 potencies. Bi-Chemlc Medicines,‘combina torytothe Haryana GovemmenttopubHdse tions succhis dnaria Maiitema eye drops, the recruitment In the national and k)cal Alfalfa Tonic, sugar of Mil(, papers of the state to give chance to every able-bodied man to compete. If he so de sires to be recruited In the PoDce. This, I am P ’ranslatkm] sure, will avoid convnunalism, nepotism and casteism in the process of recruitment are nwstly bnported from 'Germany, tothePolfce. Swrltzerland, UK. and U.S.A. Our Ciiemlsts have to pay a 65 per cent duty on titese medicines. Whafs more, tiiey iiave to pay P'fanslatlonJ local taxes also. They are selling it at four times the usual price. SHRIMATI SUMITRA MAHAJAN (Indore) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have been The common man in the country is heav raising my hand since yesterday and today ily dependent on homeopathic medicines, you have altowed me to speak. I thank you t)ut the ever bwreasing prices are making very much for this. them Inaccessible to him. Therefore, In the larger Interests of the people, I u i^ the Sir, I wouM like to draw the attention of government to pay serious attention to this the House and your good-self towards the matter and make homeopathic drugs duty crisis being faced by small scale Industries free so that these medkanes are available to in Madhya Pradesh due to shortage of coal the masses at the most reasonable prices. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Coal India has set up a The Government shouM make the neces godown at Indore, but for last two years the sary arrangements in this regard. supply at the Godown has been grossly Inadequate. A large number of dpth mills [EngOsh] are k)cated tfiroughout the Malwa region, especially in Indore. The quota for this SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE godown was fixed at 4 rocks, that is, 120 (Dum Dum); Sir, I rise to congratulate the wagons of coal, but In the last two years, tt Prime Minister for his kind activity. In the has been cut down by half and the godown northern part of West has failed to meet the requirements of that Bengal.....(ilr)tem 4pfilii>AS) area. I wouM like to tell you the situatton MR. SPEAKER: Now, I call Shri Jangbir during the past four months. In the month of Singh to speak. May. only 30 percent of the quota was made available and in the foltowing months, the SHRI JANGBIR SN«3H (Bhlwani): Mr. supply was 28%, 22% and 16% respec Speaker, Sir, I endorse the demand of the tively. Government of Haryana raised with the Government of India to increase the strength Mr. Speaker, Sir, if coal is not brought by of Haryana Police and to supply sophisti ray, the people of Indore will have to go to cated and modem weapons and other latest Vllaspur to get the requisite pemdt to bring equipment’s Hw vehicles, wireless sets etc. coal, by road. Even after this, there is no This is required to match the increasing guarantee that coal wouM be available and actlvttles of mUttants In Haryana which Is the prices In the open market, during such evMent from the rscent happenings In the crisis peitods are veiy high. The coal avail state. While emphasizing these views, I lay able through quota Is priced at Rs. 900 per stress that the mode of rsciuitment to the tonne, but If the same Is purchased from the Pdkie should b* on the pattern of CRPF, open market. It wouU cost around Rs. 1700 BSFandotherPwa-fnMivyforcetllmlMlo per tonne. The entire doth industiy Is In Haryana MU*. Rather, R ahouW be oMIga- deep orWe due to ooal shortage. 23 SEPTEMBER 14.1991 24 Mr. Speaker, Sir, the coal Minister makes was imbalance In the development d dis statement in tlie House to the effect that tricts in Uttar Pradesh. Coai India Limited has stepped up its pro- ductton and the hon. Railway Minister says I wouM like to draw your attention to that they are provMing the required number Mainpuri, which is my Lok sabha constitu of wagons, tMit it seems that there is a lack ency. 26 thousand hectare of land In this of co-ordination between them somewhere. district Is a barren land whteh Is without any The sHuatton Is quite similar to that of a provision of inlgatton. As a result of the family, where the father says that he is recent bifurcation of this district, two facto spending his entire Income in the house, and ries of this district have now been given to the mother says that he is also preparing Faridabad. BesMes this, there Is notasingle food, but the chiklren starve. This means industrial unit In this district whteh employs that there is a lack of co-ordination, some even ten woricers. where. As regards irrigatton, beskles 26 thou Mr. Speaker, Sir, I woukJ like to request sand hectare of barren land, this district the Railway Minister andtheCoalMinisterto goes without proper means of inlgatlon. sit together to discuss the phase of crisis There is also no means of eaming livelihood. being faced by the textile industry in Indore You know the net result of it. In fact, the due to serious shortage of coal in that city crime rate in Mainpuri was the highest In and to take Immediate steps in this regard in India till sonte years ago. Even now it Is on view of the wkJespread resentment among account of inadequate provision of educa the workers. tional facilities, employment and large number of Mle hands that we are leading SHRIUDAY PRATAPSII^H (Mainpuri) i these districts towards crime. Therefore, I Mr. speaker. Sir, I would like to raise a would like to draw the attention of the Gov matter of public importance and polfey in the ernment to this situatton and urge upon House. themto pay attention to the Industrial devel opment of backward districts. In this context Uttar Pradesh is the nnost backward I wouM like to recite a few lines:- state of India from industrial point of view, in the past, industrial policy of the Government 'Yah Apni-apnl kismat hai kuchh has been greatly imbalanced. I have no kaliyan khilatl hain upar, hesitatton in saying that the poitoy of giving Aur dusari murjha jati jhuke jhuke more attention to most backward States is Jeevanbharbh-u-par not being followed. There are oertdin V.I.P. Maana badkismat hai lekin kya ye Lok Sabha constituencies which have been mahak nahi saktlhain. declared as'No Industry areas’ despitethe machines worth billions of rupees lying MIe Agar mile awaar angaro si kya dahak I do not want to name those areas. Mr. nahin saktl hain. Speaker, Sir, as you know, these areas are Dhoop roshani agar chaman mein Amethi, Raibareilly and Fatehpur. But the upar hi upar bant Jaye, problem is that even though Mahpuri, Mali tumhi faisala kar do ham kisko Azamgarii and BaUa are backward districts, doshi thahreyan. they have never been declared as industri ally backward districts. Sir, I have men- SHRI PRAKASH NARAIN TRiPATHI ttoned names of three districts merely for an (Banda): Mr. speaker, Sir, I may be given example . In fact, there are several such two minutes time, when ever the people of distrtcts where no industry has been set up. my constituency ask ut about our perform But no atlMitlon has been paid to them. I ance In the House, we wNI tell that we had Know that the Planning Commisston has shouted in the House but it was In vain. taidkmoentlywtiHe announcing topolicyon Whenever we asked the hon. Mlnlstertodo *No industry districts'that one of the rsasons a particular work In writing and requested 25 BHADRA23,1913(&VCA) 26 him to take note of it, no action wastalten by Sir, lean only assure the hon. Memberthat him. People asit ustoget the work done. We we dare not commit such a mistake as to . request the hon. Minister to get the public Ignore any communteatton from them. We grievances of our area redressed. But his definitely go through it Some of us may Secretary tells us that action is being taken respond to it. But we will not let it go unread. orthey are tooking into that case, t^ow tong will it take to Initiate action? Sir, I wouM like (haem^)tions) to request you to direct the hon. Mlnlsterto get at least 10 percent the public grievances MR. SPEAKER : This is an important brought to his notice redressed. Issue, you have demanded that at least 10 percent of the grievances of your constitu MR. SPEAKER: Not 10 percent but 100 ency shoukt be redressed but I will say that percent. If the demands are genuine, they shoukl be met 100 percent Secondly, as far as I know, SHRI PRAKASH NARAIN TRIPATHI: all the replies to the letters of hon. Members We shall be grateful to you. What will we say are signed by the hon. Minister, and not by to the people of our constituency, If we are his secretary. It has been the practice as per not abletoget any workdone by the Govern my knowledge. IHowever S it is not so, I ment. So I request the Government and the wouM request that it shoukl be foitowed. hon. Ministers notto neglect the B.J.PMem- bers of Parliament. If we write something to (kttem^lons) any of the Ministers, they shoukl at least raad the same because the Member of SHRI SURYA NARAYAN YADAV Parliament had written It to them. But they (Saharasa): Mr. Speaker, Sir, most of the districts of Bihar had been declared Industri don’t even see It. It is my humble request ally backward 15 ^ars ago. But unfortu and not a complaint nately. no industrial unit has been set up so far in all such districts of North Bihar. Ten or ^EngBshJ fifteen years ago only one paper mill was s^ up at Baijanathpur. an area of my constitu THE MINISTEROF STATE INTHE MIN ency. Mr. Speaker. Sir, whenever your at ISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS tention is diverted, we hear a noise in the AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINIS House ..{IntemjpOons) TRY OF LAW. JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI RANGARAJAN MR. SPEAKER : You are speaking to KUMARAMANQALAM): Mr. Speaker, Sir, them, not for me. we appreciate the sentiments of the hon. Member. Definitely, we from the Ministry of (Intem^aions) parliamentary Affairs communicate to all the Ministers that they shoukJ respond as soon SHRI SURYA NARAYAN YADAV: The aspossible andif possl)ie, immediately. We central Government and the State Govern have also toM the Ministers that as soon as ment have also shares in the saM factory. A any communication comes from a Mennber, machine costing Rs. 15-20 crores was im acknowledgment shouM be sent Unfortu ported from the Soviet Union and was set up nately, this sesston has been cranwned. there . In this case only a second-hand Ontenuptkms) We wW definitely respond. machine was Imported because first-hand machine was not available in the market /r«anstatfon; That machine has been lying kfle for thjs last iSyeare. 15-20 crores of rupees spent on THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE this aficount hava boan wastad harmimA of (SHRI BALRAM JAKHAR): Mr. Speaker. non-availability of Centra] assistance de- 27 SEPTEMBER 14,1991 28 Spite tlw repeated requests made t>y the Uttar Pradesh and a Ayurvedic doctor was State Government. If the Government wants appointed as their M.O. In all the altopathic to set up this factoiy at the earliest and save hospitals In that state. The Govemment of the said machine alongwith the Industrial Indtei asked the Govemment of Uttar Pradesh development of this district, they should to bear the expenses being Incurred on this take steps to tide over the present financial account. Since they dkl not have any provl- crisis and commission the factory. If the ston for the same in their budget. It has Government does not Intend to njn this threatened thecareerof those706Ayun/edlc factory, they should remove the machine doctors. and prevent further losses. lEngash] Mr. Speaker. Sir. the unton of those PROF. K.V. THOMAS :(Emakulam): Mr. doctors has obtained a stay from the High Speaker, Sir, I want to bring to the notice of Court. They have not been given their salary the Government a very Important matter, for last seven months i.e. since March. f^atients from different parts of the country 1991. Now these 706 third M.Os are de are coming to Delhi for getting the best pending on others even for a penny. Pres- treatment and they are admitted into the hospitals here. But I am sorry to say that a entlythe Govemment of UttarPradesh does very careless treatment is being given to the not have any money to pay the salary of patients bythe doctors. Afew days back one these doctors. Have the Govemment of IMrs. De Cruz, who is a staff Nurse in the India ever thought of It as to how these Deen Dayal U ^ h y a y Hospital In Delhi, has doctors are asking out their living to support been undergoing treatment A wrong medi themselves and their family members. In cine was injected and she Is undergoing a tot view of this situation. I wouM like to request of agony. We are bringing to the notice of the the Unton Ministry of Health to give central Govemment, every time, these things. But assistance to the Govemment of Uttar so far no proper action has been taken. So, Pradesh so that the arrears of the salary of my request to the Govemment Is that when these doctors couM be paid to them and ever we bring to the nottoe of the Govem their servtoes coukJ be continued. ment particular cases where the patients are dying due to carelessness of the doctors by giving wrong medicines, Govemment Mr. Speaker. Sir. secondly, a Publto shouM take stem action. Health Care Scheme was launched In 1977. Under this scheme, certain persons with a Secondly, proper compensatton should deslgnatton of Swasthya Rakshak were be given to patients. This Is my request to appointed on the salary of Rs. 50A per the Govemment. Rakshak In every vHlage or after every one thousand population, but, later on, in some of the states, they have been removed from 12.00 hra. the servtoe. They have not been reinstated in Haryana state. So they shouM t>e rein [Translation] stated In that state. DR. P.R. GANGWAR (Pilibhit): Mr. Speaker. Sir, It Is fortunate that you have Mr. Speaker, Sir, the salary of these extended the time for 2-3 days and given an Swasthaya Rakshaks shouM be increased from Rs. 5(V- to Rs. 30(V- per month In view opportunity to speak so that I couM speak of the price rise. I wouM also request the about the problems of nr^ constituency. govemment to Increase the quanttty of medtoines being given to them and provkJe Mr. Speaker, sir. In 1986, a scheme was them a kit for keeping these medicines so sponsored by the Government of India for that they coukl function properly. 29 BHADRA23.1913 (SAM) 30 [English] district, some armed musllm goondas kM- SHRIG.M.C.BAUYOGI (Amatapuram) napped them. They looted and gang-raped : Sir, Konaseema area in East Godawarl thenL In this incident, a number of young District of Andhra Pradesh is )ust liice an woman were kidnapped and kept by the isiand with a population of at>out 20 iaiths muslim goondas In their custody for three sunroundedbyRiverGodawariandalsowith days. One of those Harijan women col Internal canals. Every yearthe fury of floods lapsed on that account and othertwo are still is taking a heavy toll of hunian lives as well in a serious condttton. as considerable loss to rich coconut and other cash crops. Fertile land too Is lost due The main accused of this case was to erosion and large numtwr of coconut Babar, son of Babber, resident of vHlage trees in coastal areaate washed away. Due Bagl, police station Purana Gan] in district to ladf of proper transport facilities by road, people have to depend on boats to reach Rampur. There were also about 20-25 mainland and many a time people lost their muslim goondas Involved alongwith him. lives in boat tragedies. The recent boat tragedies on 13th June and 19th August. The F.I.R. couM t>e lodged only when the 1991 toolt the lives of 24 poor people. people belonging to Shh^ Sena and few other Hindu organisations such as Bajrang To facilitate easy approach to mainland Dal started agitation by blocking roads, few bridges across River Goutham at insplte of It. the police registered the F.I.R of Yedurlanita - Yanam ferry point, this case as an ordinary case of tooting. Muideswaram - KotlpalH and Bodasakumi • None has been an«sted till today and crimi Pasariapudi are a necessity to avoid trag nals are roaming freely and threatening edies. The constnictton of these bridges will those wfio speak against them. The most also be useful to Of4GC Gas Authority of unfortunate part of the matter is that a India Limited due to their increased drilling fomwr Minister of U.P. Government and activities. At least if one bridge at Yedurlanka M.LA. of the constituency Is patronising the • Yanam feny point is sanctioned immedi- criminals openly. A Fonner M.P. who Is ateiy, the people of this area will be grateful. trying to become a Governor of any state is In this bridge construction, Govemment of also providing open patronage to them. I Pondicherry too evinced keen interest and urge upon the Central Govemment through evenexpressedtheirwililngnesstoeamiatfc this House to direct the U.P. Govemment to funds in their Eighth Plan. take stem actton against the culprits. I urge, through you. Sir, to Impress upon SHRI RAMSAGAR (BarabankI) : Mr. the Govemment to sanctton construction of Speaker, Sir, I want to draw the attentton of bridge at Yedurianka • Yanam feny point this august House and Govemment to an with the active financial participation of important matter. Nutritious food medkdnes OIMGC Gas Authority of India Limited. (In- are not being distributed rsgulariy forthe last tenuptions) many month under the Govemment akled ChlM Oevetopment projects. Even the em- [TianslaHon] ptoyeesare not being pakl their salaries and allowances regularly resulting In discontent SHRI VILASRAO NAGNATHRAO ment among them and work in the Projects GUNDEWAR (HingoU): Mr. Speaker. Sir. coming to a standstill. Govemment shouM Through this IHouse, I wouM like to draw the pay attentton to this in^xirtant matter. I attentton of the Union Home Minister and woukl also like to point out that when the the U.P. Govemment towards an Inckfent Aanganwadiworicerhekicountry-wkie dem which had taken place In Rampur village of onstrations last time, the prevtous Govem Uttar Pradesh on 19th August. On that day. ment gave an assurance to them that they some Haryan women after havingadarshan wouM be regularised, but the present Gov of their dehuy were returning from the Shiv ernment have not pakl any attention to It. So, Temple of Bhamkhwa village of Rampur I woukJ request Govemment through you to 31 SEPTEMBER 14.1991 32 pay cpedal attention for regularising these Sodai Studies, whtoh Is Hindi, shouM be employees. changed to English forthe sake of studente convenience. SHRISUKDEO PASWAN ( Ararla): Sir, I hall from Ararta which lies In the north of [TfanslaUon] Bihar. We cultivate Jute on laige scale In Ararta, Saharasa, Pumla and Madhepura SHRI RAM NARAIN BERWA (Tonk) : districts. The rate of jute last year was Rs. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to draw your atten 500to 800 per quintel, but this year, It is only tion to the Jaipur-Sawai Madhopur broad Rs.300to400perqulntal. When I discussed gauge line which is being constructed in the matter with the honorable Minister, he district headquarters of Tonk {InterwpOons) told me that a J.C.I. purchase centre was opened, but when I rang up there, it was lEngBsh] found that tt was not opened yet. I urge the Government to open this centre and raise MR. SPEAKER: You have done n«ny the Jute price to Rs. 800 to 1000 per quintal. times, today, you allow others to speak. SHRIVIRENDRASINGH(Mirzapur):Mr. [Translation] Spealter, Sir, till today I used to speak in the House on the basis my physical valour. SHRI RAM NARAIN BERWA: This Hne Today, I wish to thank your gracious seH for should be linked to Tonk. I want to draw your giving me an opportunity to speak in the attention that the Brttishere gave two prov House. inces to settle Pindri dacoits. One of them was Tonk and Second was Bhopal. Sir, even MR.SPEAKER:lsltanintelleclualarena7 after44years of Inda's Independence, many trbais in Tonk have not even seen the train SHRI VIRENDRA SII«3H: intellect re yet. My area has much potential for indus skies only In a healthy body. Mr. Speaker, trial development H the railway facilities are Sir, I wanttodrawGovemmenfsattentlonto extended there. But in the absence of rail Kanodia Chemteal factory in Sonbhadra of way facilities there, problems of poverty, unemployment and backwardness are be Mirzapur, which releases effluence in the coming more acute day by day. The sunrey neaity Rihand Dam, the water of whteh is wori( for linking Tonk district headcpjarters supplied to 5-6 lakh population living there by railway One was completed tong ago. In which have a deleterious affect on their 1957, the then Railway Minister, Babu health. Thoughthematterwas taken up with Jagjivan Ram had given an assurance in a the Govemment, but no actton has so far public meeting that Tonk woukl be linked by been taken to check this pollution. I urge a railway line, but till today. Govemment dkl upon the Govemment through you to check not pay any attentton to implement that assurance. The people of Tonk shoukl not the release of affluence of Kanodia Chemi be deprived of railway facility on the pretext cals into Rihand Dam of economic crisis. I urge upon the Railway Minister through you to link Tonk city head lEngUsh] quarters to the Jaipur-Sawai Madhopur. Proviston shoukl be made In the present SHRI K. MURALEE DHARAN (Caiteut): budget for this purpose. Its sun/ey has Sir, I wouM IHwto raise the matterregarding already been compteled. Thank you. the woridng houre of Central Schools. All Central Govemment offtoes are wofMng five /Ei v ISsA; days a week but Central Schools are work ing six days a week it Is requested that the SHRIPALAK.M. MATHEW (MukkI) :8ir, five-day weak be introduoed in Central I wouM like to draw your attentton to the Schooli also, and medium of InstnictkN) for miserable condition of the Indian student* in 33 BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) 34 Soviet Union as a result of the recent tre developed by Vishwakarma. Vishwakarma mendous changes that have taken place Jayanti is falling on 17 September. I wouM there. There are about4000 Indian students request the Central Govemment to cel scattered all over In the different reputHics. ebrate this day as islational Labour Day*. Now. the different reput>lics are asldng the Till today, we have been celebrating this day Indian students to pay their fees In hard as *May Day” as Worker's Day. but it has currency. The stipend of 100 roubles per almost lost tts significance in present con month given to the Indian students has also text it seems propertocelet>rateVishwa been stopped and they are asking them to karma Jayanti as *Nattonal Labour Day* I pay the fees in hard currency. Under the hope Govemment woukf soon announce present circumstances, these students are ’17th September* as Vishwakarma Day*. not In a position to pay their fees in hard (Interruptions) cun^ncy. [EngllshJ Another problem Is that they are being denied admission in varraus colleges and SHRI NIRMAL KANTICHATTERJEE: It other educational Institutions there. K they Is known to the House and to you. Sir. that are asked to pack up and come back to there is a very serious flood situation in India, then they will find It difficult to get North Bengal. admission in this country as there is differ ence in the systems of education here and MR. SPEAKER: We have decided not to there. If they will be thrown out, they will be allow senior Memt)ers to speak. Don’t you totally ruined because they will not get ad mission here whk:h is equivalent to their like to be conskJered as one of the senior educatton and classes in the Soviet Union. Members 7 So, the two problems which the Indian SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE: students are facing in Soviet Unton are By remaining present here yesterday till admission and payment of fees in hard midnight and early houre of the day. I prove currency. Some for us are being flooded myself to be a back bencher, (ktterruptlons) with letters and telephone fcaiis from these students and their parents. There are about MR. SPEAKER; Okay, today you have 4000 Indian students in the Soviet Union. eamed time to s p e ^ Now come on. The Embassy here Is getting SOS calls from the students as well as theirparents. So,this SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE : is an urgent matter whteh the Government of In north Bengal, the intensity of flood is very India, especially the External Affairs Minis serious. This is evident from the fact that 17 ter, shoukt take care of. I request through persons have already lost their lives. {Inter- you, the hon. Extemal Affairs Ministerto pay nvttions) It seems now the figure has gone Immediate attention to this matter. (Inter- to 42. You have not permitted me to read i^aions) today’s newspaper. So. I do not know the rrranslatton] latest figure. SHRI OATTATRAYA BANDARU Sir. it Is necessary that urgent relief is (Secundrabad): Mr. Speaker, Sir. Vlshwa given to Bengal. Acentral Team also shouM Karmaisconsktoredasynlboi of artisans of visit the area and in assodatton with the the country. He is consWered responsible State Govemntent try to mitigate the situa- for several tools and equipments forthe use tton. There has already been a very swift of small rural artisans. All the artisans of India such as cobblera. pot makers, gold- response from the hon. Prime Minister. He smlh, blacksmith, carpenters etc. worship has already granted some anwuntfrom his VIshwa-karma as god. Our village folk spe Relief Fund. Unfortunately, there is one cially rural artisans mostfy depend on tools matter of propriety that has escaped his 35 SEPTEMBER 14.1991 36 notice. Sir, propriety of partiamentary instt- I request the hon. Mlnlsterto send a Central tutions of the country requires that the relief Team immediately to Bengal. Ast least Rs. given by the Central Government, even if it 25 crores should be providedto the Govem happens to be from the Prime Minister's ment of West Bengalfor relief woik, as an ad Reitef Fund, should be channelised through hoc grant the State Govemments. But here, instead of that, viw have leamt that one hon. Minister prranslatlon] has been deputed to distribute the fund through District Magistrates in the districts. SHRI RABI RAY (Kendrapara) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am still in a dilemma whether As you are aware Sir, if anything has hap I should raise this question or not. As such, pened in West Bengal, It is thatthe Panchayat Institutions are firmly in saddle 'and the I want your guidance. I along with my friend and a C.P.I. member, Shri Lokanath elected people from the lowest village level Choudhury reached the airport on our way upto State level are rimily guiding the admin to Bhubaneshwar. istration. Underthese circumstances, I want to draw the attention of Prime Minister through you and request him, that whatever Mr. Speaker, Sir, you had also to go to he condescends to donate for the afflicted Bhubaneshwar but you coukJ not reach people In North Bengal, that should be there. B.P.S.T. had an^nged an orientation channelised through the State Government programme there. Before reaching that and nobody else. I do not accuse him of any place, I requested Shri Farooq to be In the partisan political considerations. I consider House. The aircraft 477 left for him a gentleman and it might be a slip. He Bhubaneshwar on time. The sakl aircraft should be requested that he should resist goes to Bhubaneshwar via Raipur and It such ‘slippages’. That is all I proceeded towards Bhubaneshwar after submlL(/r)to/ru|pfft>/7s). touching Raipur. When I and Shri Lokanath Choudhury were getting down, we found DR. DEBI PROSAD PAL (Calcutta North- ourselves once again in Raipur. Perhaps we West): There was nothing wrong or uncon- were sleeping (Intenvpttons) Shri Chatterjee ventlonal if the contribution from the Prime is smiling iMJt he will realise the discomfiture. Minister's Relief Fund was sent for distribu Our aeroplane met with two mishaps. We tion through a Central Ministerby the dtetrict called the captain and asked him as to how magtlstrates. The hon. MenA>er who raised we were back In Raipur. He toM us that this issue should not bne so sensitive and he because of the inclement weather In should not try to find anything wrong in the Bhubaneshwar, the plane landed In Raipur. action of the hon. Prime Minister. Here I may I asked him where we wouM go next He mention that It has been ourexperience that replied that we wouM be sent to Bhubaneswar If relief funds are distributed through the by a relief plane. agencies of the State Govemment, some times political and other partisan considera Now takes place the second mishap. tions tal(e an upper hand and the relief fund Is distributed not always to those who re Just before landing atthe Delhi airport, there quire the assistance most, but to the per was an announcement for impending crash sons who might belong to a particulargroup landing or emergency landing. Ail arrange ora politicai party. Hence,the Prime Minis- ments were made for emergency landing. terhasdone the right thing indistributing the Lokanathji and I were class nnates. In a light fund through a Central Minister. vein, I told Lokanathji that both of us had crossed the age of 64. Now we woukJ have SHRIAMARROYPRADHAN (Cooch Bihar) to prepare ourselves mentally for tieily land ;Sir, nearly onecrore people of West Bengal ing. We had no experience of belly landing. are affected by floods. They require imme Choudhuryji had experienced it once four diate relief to save their lives. Through you. teen years ago. During the course of that 37 BHADRA23,1913 (SAM) 36 bel ly landing, four people lost their lives. I wouki Join me in wishing a k>ng iKe to the wanttopointoutthatintheManipuraircrash Members and those who were on board. bi which Shri Thompak Singh was Idlled. there were no survivors. He certainly be (Interruptions) longed to Congress party but he was my friend and afriend of Shri George Fernandes. [Translation] I told Choudhurl Ji that we might also meet the fate of Shri Thompaic Singh, in that MR. SPEAKER: I am now giving chance aircraft, fifty percent of the people on board to 2-3 Members and senior Members will also be Included in it. If they do not express were foreign tourists. Tahnk that the plana their views, the matter will remain incom prepared itself for belly landing. Everyone plete. Members sitting at the back shouki was praying to the almighty. At last, we all keep sitting. I will give them chance later. landed safety. Ram Vilas Paswanji, you are leaving for Andhra Pradesh and as such, I am giving I am raising this matter before you be you a chance. You please finish In two cause when I reached Bhuvaneshwar, the minutes. Vice Chancellor pointed out that during the last one year, many such mishaps had SHRI RAM VIIJVS PASWAN (Rosera): taiten place in Calcutta. This is a common Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have caused inconvience occurrence. Today, i read in the newspaper to you. You have pointed out thattoday is the that no one was Icilied in the belly landing at day for Junior members but I am requesting Bangalore but another accident toolt place, you to allow me to speak now because i am lam raising this point because Sntosh Mohan leaving for Andhra Pradesh to participate in JI Is here. The arrangements of Indian Air the rally called by the Daiits organisations to lines are envneous resulting in nwre acci protest against the killings in Andhra dents in North Eastem States. We are aware Pradesh. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you are aware of the accident when Shri Moraji Desai was that the cunrent Parliament Session is end travelling. Do ail these accidents occur on ing on the 17th and therfore. we will meet in account of mechanical fault? No, the reason November. 26th September is the day altot- behind it is faulty an^ngements, mainte ted In Supreme Court for Mandal Commis- sk>n. Three nwnths have passed but Gov nance lapses and non-compliance of old norms. ernment failed to clarify Its stand in this period. I had pointed out earlier also that Some may thinic that it Is a personal while I Was a Minister of this Department, we had prepared a common list of Joint matterbut it is not so. It is a matter of public Secretaries In fourteen States as per the importance. As such I have sought your instructions of Cabinet Secretary but the guidance as to whether I should raise this or not. Farook Saheb is present here. We poltey is yet to be formulated. The Prime encountered two mishaps in the course of a Minister has repeatedly saM that he wouki convene a meeting of leaders of oppositk>n single journey. I will like point out that it is a matter not confined to Members of Parlia parties and evolve a consensus on this issue. 26th September is the date in Su ment but pertains to the entire country and preme Court and adjoumment has taken foreign tourists. As such. I request the place thrice but has not been a single delb- Government to pay more attentton towards rectifying the lapses in the arrangements eration withthe leaders of opposition parties made by the Indian Airlines so that such on this Issue. The Government is deliber mishaps do not re /ccur In future. ately trying to avoid this serious matter. The intention of Govemment is not dear. Gov ernment wants the issue of Mandal commis PEngBsh] sion to end in the Supreme Court. The issue which involves the Interest of the backward MR. SPEAKER rithlnkthe entire House classes and 52 percent of the population of 39 SEPTEMBER 14,1991 40 the country...... {kttonuptfofKli You please fEngtshJ take your seat. Mr. Speaker. Sir, they do not listen. I am not crittelsing them. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Panigrahl, please pay attention. Whatisgoing onthere ? What he has sakJ is not going on record. [Engash] P'ranslatlonJ SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivandrum): Sir, this Isfactually Inconect. (Intemjpttons) Sir, SHRI RAM VILASPAWAN:Mr.Speaker, he Is making a wrong statement that he Sir, I was the Minister of that department prepared the list when he was In power. and I am saying It with full responsibility {kitem^)Uons) He Is misleading the House...... (Jlntomptfons)...... These people (kitempUons) do not understand. I am saying with fuH responsibfllty that the common list was pre MR. SPEAKER : It Is not going on pared. I am asying that the Prime Minister record. had saM In the House and outsMe It that we want to anrive at a national consensus after (Utterruptlons)* consulting ail the ieaders....(/ntef7ii|prfo/is) [Enggsh] [Translation] SHRI A. CHARLES : He Is making a MR. SPEAKER: You please take your wrong statement. He is misleading the seat. By giving vent to your anger, you House. wasting time. SHRI SRIKANT JE N A : Mandal issue Is (Intenvptlons) a very serious issue. Why are these people opposing It? (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Panigrahij!, you please take your seat. MR.SPEAKER:Pieaseaiiowthismatter to be handled by the speaker who is speak (Intem^Mons) ing from the bench and who Is sitting in chair. H others try to help, there will be confusion. MR. SPEAKER :You have also left your seat. P ’rtutslatlon] (Mem^sUona) SHRIRAMVILASPASWAN: In the Presi dent’s address the Qovemment had sakl In MR. SPEAKER :The Sesston is aboutto dear terms that the recommendations of conclude. Let us proceed In a peaceful Mandal Commlsston wouM be implemented. Prime Minister sakl many times that the recommendattons of the Mandal Commls (kAenupOons) ston wouM be Implemented. How can they do so? Their is a different point of view. He saM that he would be consulting the leaders MR. SPEAKER: PanlgrahQi, you never of all parties and woukl anrive at a consen get angry, why are you so disappointed sus, aH this Is recorded. I wouM only say that today. it has not been discussed with any leader so far, espedaily it has not been discussed whh Whatever has been saM ...... (//ifer- any leader of the Left Front or National Front, and I believe not even with the leaders *Notraconled 41 BHADRA23,1913(SA/C4) 42 of the B.J.P. Under such circumstances, on Delhi will continue to exist, for example, the the 26th of ...... (Intem^ons)...... lawI would and order problem Is there, whtoh my Intist upon you that the matter would be friend mentioned Just now. Moreover the taKen up In the Supreme Court on 26th and ration Depots of Delhi don’t have any ration. even then the Government Is not making Its The system of bureaucracy of Delhi is such that there no say of elected Members. There policy clear, which clearly shows that the fore I wouM like to say where shoukl the Gk)vemment Is not serious atx>ut It, It does elected M en^rs go. We stand up of and on not want to Irrplement the recommenda and express oursehres during the zero hour. tions of the Mandal commission. Therefore I believed that there will be a discussion on I would Insist upon any Minister from the it herefor2 and a half hours. Somebody may Qovemment and asic him what policy the tell us whether there Is any single decision. Government has adopted on Mandal Com But what is happening, we stand up here mission and whether it is going to darify its once a week as If participating In a ceremony poiicybefore26th ornot. lwouldlH backward communities in the House. (Inter- pointedly to every party's manifesto and ruptions) When the former Prime Minister, said that but for BJP all political parties had Mr. V.P. Singh, mede a suo motu statement agreed. on that point Shri Lal K. Advani and in the House regarding the implementation Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee stood up and said, ofthe recommendations ofthe Mandal Com- "No, we also support the report" mission, he did not give a list of backward communities eligible for reservation. That You will rememberthat Istood up here in was why the Supreme Court stayed the my seat and said, "Mr. Prime Minister, this proceedings. There are 3,743 communities is one issue on which there is a national included as backward communities in the consensus. Therefore, it is a question which Mandal Commission Report. What Mr. V.P. relates to giving share in the administration to the 52 percent of ourpopulation, for which Singh in the sou motu statement said was they have got a right from the Constitution that a new list should be prepared in consul- and for the last 41 years nothing has been tation with the State Governments who are done on this." eligible for reservation. There are problems to prepare such a list. For example, Pulaya Now inspite of two high-powered com- is a scheduled caste community in Kerala: missions appointed by the President of India but, according to the Mandal Commission nothing was done. Rightly the V.P. Slngh Report, it is O.B.C. So, Pulayas are request- Government took adecision. To saythat the ing that they should be allowed to continue V.P. Singh Government did not consult is as scheduled castes. There are such not correct. It is all right, if you want to anomalies.(lnterruptions) consult, please consult. But there is notime. Within one week you have to submit your SHRI CHANDRA JEET YADAV : Before statement before the Supreme Court. Oth- you go on to the next item, please listen to erwise, it will be taken as if the Government me for two minutes because I have been has not clarified and this will go against your writing to you for four days on this issue. It party also. We are not saying anything. We is not a question of who did What; whether are not charging the Congress Party. But it was a suo motu or other things. What we what we request is that there is hardly time are trying to bring to the notice of this House and the Prime Minister who has made a and through this House to the Government statement time and again, must call the and the Prime Minister is that the Supreme meetings of all leaders of political parties and ifthere isa possibility of aconsensus we Court has specifically asked the Govern- welcome that consensus. But we do want ment to clear its stand inthe Supreme Court this that 27 percent reservation which will go on the case of the Mandal Commission to socially and educationally backward Report which is going on there. otherwise, classes, has to be given to them. Along with the Supreme Court will take it as if the that, there are other related issues which Government Is not in favour of there com- have been raised. Here you saw that one mendations of Mandal Commission. The hundred Members of Scheduled Castes Government of India sought the adjourn- and Scheduled Tribes, Irrespective of the ment saying that they would seek the con- pofitlcal parties, were agitated on many is- sensus on this issue and they would come sues. And one of the issues was that reser- before that Court and the Court very specifi- vation to Scheduled castes and the Sched- callygave a direction that 26th September is uled Tribes is also not being fulfilled and the last late being given to the Government therefore there should be statutory backing to submit the memorandum. If the Govern- to that also. ment fails to submit it on the Mandal Com- mission's recommendations, the Supreme MA. SPEAKER: We have discussed this Court will take its own view. issue for ten hours. SHRI CHANDRA JEET YADAV: I am The Prime Minister in this House while concluding. That ten hour's discussion was replying to the President's Address referred on atrocities. 45 BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) 46 I am saying that tbls is a nationalques- total financial burden of Rs. 348 crores the tion. This Is not a sectional question. It is not Central Government share comes to Rs. a caste question. It relates to 85 percent of 174 crores and the State Government share the population of our country. Therefore, is of equal amount, that is, Rs. 174 crores. through you we want to request the Govern- The amount is to be borne by the State ment and the Prime Minister that he should Government under the Scheme to be re- call the meeting to reach some consensus if ceivedfromthe Government of India as loan that is possible. Otherwise, according to the through NABARD. Constitution, he should submit to the su- preme Court the Government decision that The Government of India has so far 27 per cent of reservation, from the Central released a grant of Rs. 66.50 crores and a Government, at all levels should go on to loan of Rs. 66.50 crores through NABARD socially and educationally backward classes. as State share. Thus, the total amount This is what I want to submit. received comes to Rs. 133 crores, which has been passed on to the State Coopera- SHRIRANGARAJAN KUMARAM ~ tive Bank. ANGALAM : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to set the record straight. The Government Now, an amount of Rs. 215 crores is did not seek an adjournment on the ground required to be released by the Central Gov- that it has to still finalise its policy on the ernment, half of itasgrantandthe remaining Mandal issue. On the contrary, the Govern- half as loan through NABARD. The Govern- ment very categorically by a statement ment of Gujarat has requested many times made its stand clear on the Mandal issue. but nothing has been done so far. But what happened was, that the Supreme Court wanted to know whether the present In view of the above, I request once order which is under challenge isgoing to be again the Finance Minister, through you, Sir, replaced, if it is to be replaced by what order to release the grant to the State Govern- would it be replaced and they sought that ment immediately. they want a specific memorandum to which --we responded saying that before any MA. SPEAKER: Now, Papers to be laid memorandum is given, we would like to on the Table. consult all parties, have a national consen- sus on the matter, so that tall parties' views Shri M.O.H. Farook. are taken into consideration and the matter can be resolved by a consensus without SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Mr. Speaker, causing any rancour at any level to see that Sir, before he lays it on The Table of the genuinely backward classes are given what House, I would like to make an they have been fighting for a long time, observation ... (Interruptions) without rancour. Now, definitely the consul- tations will take place. We are aware that the MR. SPEAKER: He is objecting to the date is quite close. Also everybody is aware laying of papers. He has given a notice. as to how the days have passed with many problems on day-to day basis. Consultation will take place. They need not worry. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am making an observation on items 2 KUMARI DIPIKA CHIKHlIA (Baroda) : (1) and 2 (3).1 am well aware that no~mally Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the light of guidelines an Objection to the laying of papers IS be- given by the Government of India, the State yond the purview of the ordinary Mem?ers Government of Gujarat has introduced a and the Objections that I have would ordinar- scheme of Agriculture and rural Co-opera- ily be covered by the Committee on Papers tive Qebt Relief Scheme, 1990 The scheme Laid on the Table. But I would like to share envisages sharing of the financial burden by with the rest of the House, Sir, that the Government is laying on the Table of the the Government of India and the State House a Review of the Pawan Hans Limited Government In the ratio of 50:50. Out of a 47 PspersUM SEPTEMBER 14.1991 PapersLaki 48 rel ating to the year 1986-87 and also Annual ISTRY OF CIVIL AVIATION AND TOUR Report of the Pawan Hans Limited alongwlth ISM (SHRI M.O.H.FAROOK): Sir. on behalf Audited Accounts forthe year 1986-87, and of Shri Madhavrao Sclndia, I beg to lay on In Ike fashion, for the National Airports the Table :- Authority It Is a Review of 1986-87 and also the Audited Accounts of 1986-87.* (1) Acopyeachofthefollowingpapers (Hindi and English versions) under I have gone through the statement that sut>-section (1) of section 619 A of has been provided by the Govemment ex the companies Act. 1956;- plaining the grounds for this delay. (I) Review by the Govemment So far as the statement relating to Pawn on the working of the Pawan Hans Limited Is concerned, it is a document Hans Limited. New Delhi, for which Is an admission of total incompetence the year 1986-87. on the part of the Govemment. (ii) Annual report of the Pawan As far as the statement relating to the Hans Limited, New Delhi, for NatlonalAlrports Authority is concerned. His the year 1986-87 alongwlth a document of denseness, that very little Audited Accounts and com can be made as to why this delay has been ments of the comptroller and caused. Auditor general thereon. Sir, Accounts relating to the Pawan Hans Limited and National Airports Authority are (2) A statement (Hindi and English being submitted to the Parliament after five versions) showing reasons for de years. Accounts for the year 1986-87 are lay In laying the papers mentioned being laid on the Table of the House afterthe at (1) above. [Placed In Library, delay of five years. The Audit itself has been see No L T -659/91] delayed for five years. (3) (i) A copy of the Review (Hindi lamsurethat every section of this House and English versions) of the win share this concern. You cannot have National Airports Authority for Govemment bodies coming to Parliament the year 1986-87 along with with their Review and Annual Reports after Audited Accounts under sec five years. The statement explains nothing tion 25 of the National Airports atalL Authority Act. 1985. This is my observation. Sir. (ii) A copy of the Review (Hindi and English versions) by the MR. SPEAKER: I thinit, the Committee govemment on the working of win loolt into the matter. the Nattonal Airports Authority forthe year 1986-87. (4) A statement (Hindi and English 12.50 hra. versions) showing reasons for de lay In laying the papers mentioned PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE at (3) above. [Placed In Lbrary. see No L T -660/91] Review on and Annual Report of Pawn Hans Umlted, New Delhi for (5) A statement (Hindi and EngHsh 1986-87 etc. verstons) (0 correcting the reply, given on the 10th April, 1990 to m m Unstirred Question No. 4298 by Shri SaHuddln Chaudhury, M.P. THE MINISTEROFSTATEIN7HE MIN regarding Bi-Annual Medical Ex* 49 Papw sLM BHADRA23,1913(SAKA) B.A.C. fteport 50 ami natlon of Indian air Hostesses 12.51 hrs. and (10 the reasons for deiay in . correcting ttie reply. [Placed In li MESSAGES FROM RAJYA SABHA< brary. See No LT. 661/91] [English] Review on and Annual Report of Vayudoot Limited, New Delhi etc. SECRETARY-GENERAL; Sir. I have to repoitthefollowing messages recelvedfrom THE MINISTEROFSTATEINTHE MIN the Secretaiy-Generai of Rajya Sabha:- ISTRY OF CIVIL AVIATION AND TOUR ISM (SHRI M.O.H.FAROOK): I beg to lay (0 ‘In accordance with the provi on the Table:- sions of rule 127 of Rules of Procedure and Conduct of (1) Acopy each of the following papers Business In the Rayya Sabha. (Hindi and English versions) under iamdirectedto inform the Li>k sub-section (1) of section 619 of Sabha that the Rajya Sabha companies Act, 1956 at its sitting heM on the 12th September. I991.agieedwlth- (i) Review by the Government out any amendment to the on the working of the Vayudoot places of Worship (Special Limited. New Delhi, for the Provistons) BiB. 1991. whk:h year 1987-86. was passed by the Lok Sabha at its sitting held on the 10th (li) AnnualReportoftheVayudoot September, 1991.’ Umlted, New Delhi, for the year 1987-68 along wtth Au (IQ *ln accordance with the provi dited Accounts and comments sions of sub-rule (6) or rule of the comptroller and Auditor 186 of the Rules of Procedure General thereon. and Conduct of Business In the Rajya Sabha. I am directed (2) A statement (Hindi and English to return herewith the Central versioitt) showing reasons for de Excises and Customs Laws lay In laying the papers mentioned (Amendment) Bill, 1991. wtilch at (1) above. [Placed in libFary • was passed by the Lok Sabha See No LT .662/91] at Its sitting heM on the 10th September, 1991. and trans Report of the Comptroller and Auditor mitted to the Rajya Sabha for General of India for the year ending its recommendattons and to 31March1990 - Union Government state that this House has no recommendattons to make to THE MINISTEROFSTATE INTHE MIN the Lok Sabha In regard to the ISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS saMBiH. AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINIS TRY OF LAW. JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARAMANGALAM); Sir. on behalf of 12.52 hrs. Shrldalbir Singh, I Beg to lay on the Table a copy of the Report (Hindi and English BUSINESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE versions) of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India forthe year ended the 31st Sixth Report March. 1990 (No. 11 of 1991) — Union Government (other Autonomous Bodies) lEngBshJ under article 151 (1) of the Constttutlon. IPIaoed In the Bbrary See No. LT. 663/91] THEMINISTEROF STATE iNTHE MIN ISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS 51 Fkiance(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 m 1991 52 AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINIS of concern to ail segments of this House. TRY OF LAW. JUSTICE AND COMPANY Reference was made to the growing prob AFFAIRS (SHRIRANGARAJAN KUMARA- lem of unemployment. This again is an issue MANGALAM); Sir, I beg to move: which ought to be the concern of ail seg ments of this House. So. ait these problems That this House do agree with the have been mentioned. The same way Shri Sixth Report of the Business Advisory George Fernandes specifically refen«d to Committee presented to the House the inadequacy of the infrastructure of power on the 13th September, 1991.” in Bihar how It is contributing to the contin ued badnvardness of a potentially very rich MR. SPEAKER: The question is : State of the Union. Ali these are very live issues and these must be tackled If this That this House do agree with the country is to achieve its full devetopmental Sixth Report of the Business Advisory potential. If the aspirations of the people of Committee Presented to the House this country for a better tomorrow are to on the 13th September, 1991.’ become a living reality. The motion was adof^ed But how is it to come about? I submit to this-august House that these aspirations cannot be given a living reality if the fiscal mess in which we have got into, is not set FINANCE (N0.2) BILL - CCMTD. right. lEngOsh] India today has unsustainable fiscal defksit and this is a point on which ail shades MR. SPEAKER: I would like to take of public opinion, all shades of economists the Matters under rule 377 at the end of the — Left or right or Centre— are agreed. You det»te. Let us start with the reply of the can go on quarreling as to how this fiscal Finance Minister now. defteK came about, how It gave rise to unsustainable foreign exchange deftoit. J THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI think we can spend a kit of time on this. But MAraulOHAN SINGH): Mr. Speaker. Sir, I real issue before us today is. having got am very grateful to ali the hon. Members on where we are, what steps are we going to all sMes of this august House who have take that this crisis is contained and over a taken part In the debate on the Rnance Biii. periodof time this crisis is reversed and that The Rnance Bill forms part of the overall this crisis is. in fact, used as an opportunity Budget, even though it deals only with the to set in motion those forces of refomre tax elements of the Budget. It was. there which alone can see that this country’s great fore, quite natural that several hon. Menv developmental potential, which is lying bers brought up general Issues of poikdes, unutilised, is. I think, made a reality. and the issues that they brought up are Issues of profound importance to the future Isubmittoyouthat by presenting the of our country. For example, reference was Budget in this House six or eight weeks ago, made to the primacy of agriculture. Shri I do not claim that I have performed won Chandrakar brought out the massive prob ders. But. if you look at the situation that this lem of land and water degradation In our Government inherited • for whatever rea country which. If not tackled, will hurt the sons to which our party might have contrib living standard of millions and miiltons of uted or other parties might have contributed farmers Hving in our country on the edges of - that was a situation of almost certain subsistence. Shil George Femandesbrought default on Intemattonal obilgattons. If we up the issue of regional imbalances and had not acted the way we acted, you have these rei^onalMalanoesshouklbeasouioe my assurance. India wouM have, by now. 53 Fbtanoe (No.2) BHADRA23,1913(S>VC4) 1991 54 bee n dedarad a defaulter. What are the ought to be raised gradually, over a period consequences of default? To know the con of time. But. if you had not raise the fertiliser sequences of default,we have to look around. prices for the last decade and here I am What has happened in Latin America? What faced with a budgetary subskly of Rs. 7,000 has happened In Africa? Once the country crores, then if I do not cut It, I would not be defaults on its International obligations, no worthy of being the Finance Minister of this body wouM touch it. They have to import on country. Despite ail the blame and despite a ‘Cash and cany basis. Nobody gives all the abuse that you may shower, I think, credlL Even after that. I think, sooner or I did the right thing for this country in cutting later, these countries end up with a hat in these subskJies. I do feel that what we have hand before their International creditors In done, by way of, compensating the farmers the I.M.F., or Paris CiuborLondon Club. We • my distinguished colleague, the Minister of have, I think, prevented that situation. It has Agriculture is here • farmers have tieen been my sincere effort and the effort of our adequately compensatedforthe increase in Govemment that somehow we must keep fertiliser prices. We stand committed to the honourof this country in tact and also our promoting the welfare of the farmers’ com unblemished record of hoMing all our com munity and if there are any prot>iems, in mitments in tacL I think that unblemished months to come, we are ready to attend to record must be maintained. them. I do submit to you that we have 13.00 hre. succeeded In doing that. But, I am not promising you that if this country goes on The second thing that I want to say is spending the way it has been spending and that we have to restmcture our economy. if everybody says that subskJies should be We must restructure our trading system so increased and If everybody says that the tax that we doni have to go and beg abroad. rates must be reduced and if the productivity And let me be very candkJ with you. the of investment in this country remains as tow International Monetary Fund or the Worid as it is today, I do not promise you that there Bank have no solution, nobody abroad has is a divine law which wouM ensure that India solutions to the problems of a country of our woukJ not face default, if we continue to do size and if you are underthe impression that all these things. they are eager to come here to lend us, I think that is also a misconception I think the Therefore^ ail that I can say is that I rest of the worid today Is in such an arrogant have bought some time. This is the time we mood saying that 'if India does not reform must use for retrospectton, to set in motton itself, well, let India go the way It was to go. those reform processes which wouM con the rest of the worid care less’. So. what we vert this crisis into opportunity. If we do not are doing, I assure you, is not something we do that. I can assure you. you will face are doing, to pieiee IMF, I do need the unemployment and Inflation of the type you support of the IMF today because we have have never seen before, in this country. a crisis of creditworthiness — this crisis of creditworthinessin which intematkmal bank I regret that I had to do. what I had to ers from whom blliions of Dollars have been do. in cutting the fertilizer subskJies. I wish, bonrowed in short-term, I think they are it had been done over a period of time and wanting to be assured that India is going gradually. Yesterday, hon. Member Shri bankrupt. We have got about 11 blliton Devegowda quoted a report of a very fa dollars of non-reskJent deposits, these peo mous Agriculture Secretary and a gentle ple are nervous, they have been taking man from Karnataka and for whom I have money out of this country. In the first four great respect • Shri G.V.K. Rao - who had, months of this financial year, one billion in that report, cleariy recommended that Dollars of these deposits went out of the fertilizer prices have to be raised and they country and If that process has gone on for 55 Finance (No.2) SEPTEMBER 14,1991 m 1991 56 Man mohan Singh] Now. several tax proposals have been discussed. Let me say that In a poor society a month or two, this country would have almost everybody has a Just grievance been without reserve and H this country against the Government, oursociety, that Is would have been without resenre, what would the politks and economtes of scarcity, i have been the consequences? recall. Panditji used to say in those days our populatton used to be about 35 crorss. that We consume about 12 million tonnes in India each person has a problem and of fertilizers in our country. Of that, about maybe they are Justified. In a poor country three million tones of fertilizers come from people’s aspirattons have risen with educa abroad and if India had become a defaulter tion. with the knowledge of what is happen and if we had no foreign exchange, you take ing in the rest of the worid, our people are It from me, you would have in this country a impatlentfor change. Oursystem’scapablll- fertHlser famine, a rise in fertiliser prices ties to satisfy those aspirattons have not which you have never seen in the history of Increased. This Is leading to discontent the country. Now, In the short run, this leads to frustra tion, this leads to anger, this leads to terror Today we consume about GO million ism, and all those otherthlngs. If I had af rse tonnes of petroleum products. We produce fiand and If I dM not have the compulstons about 34 million tonnes domestically, and to contain the expenditure, I woukl have this year despite all what we are saying, gladly accepted the several demands which theiewlHbe afurthershortfaUof 3to4 million have t>een made in this House. I respect the tonnes and today we have no foreign ex sentiments of his House, whether they are change to import all these petroleum prod on this skle or that skto. It is my duty, as the ucts on cash basis. We have been Irrportlng Finance Minister, to reflect upon all that has this on credit terms. We have no money to been saki in this House. Ijst me say that import even newsprint on cash basis, this even though today I am not able to improve has been Imported on credit terms. Now, upon the package I that have submitted to who wVi go on giving credit to a country you. I am only five months away from next which becomes a defaulter ? And we had year*sBudget; IwouMglveaserious thought become a defaulter, you would have seen a to ail those concerns which have been ex breakdown of India’s transport system of pressed here and may be when I come next the type which woukl have, I think, disas yearbeforsthis House icouM improve upon trous consequences for Industrial produc the package. tion as wen as for agricultural productton. It Is k) this overall context that you must view Now. there has been a persistent the Budget that I have presented, i am not demand that the exemption limit of income saying that it is an ideal Budget, I had not tax ought to be raised. In isolation this tooks even afortnight to apply myself to the Budget rsasonable. But. I beg of you to kmk at this because there were pressing intemattonal problem in the context of the emergency issues to which I had to innnedlately devote situatton that we are facing and In which we attantkm. But I do claim, contrary, to what are putting burden on even the smallest some Members saM here that in history I farmers of our country. Also, when refer woiM be judged as having committed the ences were made to the exemptton limit, greatest crime — I submit, I do not plead, people forget that income tax payers - 1 do history will of course pass its own Judgment, not say by way of any smaH talk - and that butldodaim with some credit thatlhave got those who have a secured Job in some some time for this country to take the right sense constitute a privileged dass in this sensfale decisions to maintain India’s un- —----■ - ----«i-i—— country, where a great majority of our peo* DIBmlSilOO reOOra anO lnl 8 18 SOmBininQ pie do not get two square meaisaday. There which I thought I wouU mentkm to this isthe bMlcaxemptkMi Imit of Rs. 22.(XXV- House in the beginning. ; salaiy ewners, In addition, gel a standard 57 Finance (No^) BHADRA23,1913(&VC4) 1991 58 ded uction Of Rs. 12,000/-if a person’s gross an average annual rate of about 13 percent Income Is Rs. 33,000/-. So, upto Rs. 33,000/ to 14 percent last year. Normally, the Budget •, nobody has to pay any tax, if he Is a salary of the Govemment Is presented In February earner. Furthermore, If he has any financial and usually as a result of the Budget, some assets, upto Rs. 13,000/- he can also es rise In prices inevitsdbiy takes place In an cape the tax net. Then, 20 percent of sav economy flke ours. That process was not ings by way of contrtt>utlon to Provident perform in February. The Budget, therefore, Fund, Life insurance Corporation, these are came in July. From July to Septemt)er, even also deductbie from tax. I would submit to in a nonnal year, even when crops are you that taiting into’ account the overall normal, you have a sharp seasonal rise in poverty of our country, taking into account prices. Then,of course.thera was the change the other pressing claims on the resources in exchange rate which was unavoidable. Ail of this country, I thinit, today is not the right these three factors combined, I do admit, moment to go about raising this limit to Rs. have strengthened the inflationary force In 50,000/- or Rs. 48,000/-. But I do recognize the short span. that Inflation creates problems and inflation creates problems not only for middle class, But you have my assurance that our but It also creates problems for those who fiscal policy remains tight, our monetary earn their Kving on the basis of their dally policy remains tight. Yesterday, one hon. wage, who do not have a secured job and Member— ithink, it was Shri Jha— said we who are not even covered by the public should control credit for trade. That is pre distribution system. Our public distribution cisely what the Reserve Bank dkt last week system, unfortunately, does not caterto the when it tightened credit to foodgralns, rice needs of the most under - privileged. They and wheat. It is my hope that as the crops do not have the means orthe capacity to buy come into the maritet by beginning of Octo ration fora weel( orafortnight. So, it is in this ber, you would see a downtrend. Also as our context that we must view the problems of balance of payment situation gradually in)- this country, (interruptions) proves, you woukJ see the supply skle of certain goods improving. [TnmslatlonJ In the last one year, we have not been SHRI MOHAN RAWLE (Bombay able to import any vegetable oil. But during South Central): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I oppose R. the last lOyears, this country used to import We, the Memtwrs of Shiva Sena walk out of up to mMton tonnes of vegetable oil. Today the House In protest against not raising the we do not have foreign exchange to import Hmlt of Inconrte rebate tax upto Rs. 36,000. that vegetable oil. So, inevitably there will be some' upward pressure on prices. Even ^Shri Mohan Rawle and some other though we are short of resources, we have hon. Members then left the H o u s^« now made some anangement to import vegetable oil. My hope Is and I feel confident Pngash] that by about first half of October, you wouM see a positive impact on the prices situation SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: Several as a result of the Budgetary strategy that I Mefflbers have brought up this question of have outlined. price rise. They have alleged that the Budget has made adirectcontributton to an upsurge I come to several spedfk: points that In price rise. Let me say that I am deeply have been made. It was Shri Nirmal wonled about the price situation. I share the Chatteijee who has brought out that it Is an worry and the concern of the hon. Memt>ers emergency situation that you have been on both sMes of the House. But how has this talking about, why are you then allowing for sluatlon come about? I have narrated a this Import of baggage. He mentkmed Rs. situation where inflatton was taking piace at 873crores customs revenue being collected 59 Rnance(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 1991 60 (Sh. Man Mohan Singh] Sir, let me also be very candid wRh you thatfiscal discipline inthiscountrycannotbe way of baggage. He mentioned Rs. 873 sustained if the Central Government main crorescustoms revenueflgurethat hequoted tains fiscal deficit but the state Govem and the Imptession that he tried to create ments continue to behave as they were and that I have given Rtwral concessions, unfor maintain things as they were, If Public Enter tunately is unwarranted. The increase is prises in the States are not maintabied simply a reflection of the exchange rate properly. Therefore, we have a duty. The ctiange that has come about He has also Central Government and the State Govem mentioned, if we are In emergency, why are ments must ail sittogether and It Is only then we allowing for large imports? What is it that that you can set the fiscal system of this I am allowing? I have said that this country country right..... (Interruptions) You have win have to live with a total oil bin which is no my assurance that as Rnance Minister I will higher thatn last year. In real terms, the fully cooperate in evolving a cooperative volume of imports that i have planned for in approach in dealing with the Center-States the foreign exchange budget is lower than problems. last year. Lxet year Itself, we had drastically squeezed the Import and let me say I am SHRI NIRMAL KANTICHATTERJEE worried greatly about the effects of that (Dum Dum): I have mentioned about con Import squeeze. But to suggest that I am signment Tax and shall savings. What Is trying to mislead the - 1 am talcing of emer your response to that? gency but at the same time. I am having an import bonanza • I think, is something which SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH : About is not warrantedby the facts of the situation. shall savings, I would INw to mention that in response to suggestions which came from • It was Shri Ninnal Chatteijee who has again among others - the Government of west mentioned that I have done nothing for the Bengal, I have got a specific amendment to States. Infact. If you read my original Budget give the benefit of Section SOL to the Na speech, you would notice that I have very of tional savings Certificate VIII series. There the total additional resource moboiiisation of have also been demands that the interest Rs. 2600 crones. Rs.612 crores accrue to rate on Shall Savings should be Increased. the State Governments. This is the resource Yesterday, my colleague also was ques nwbilisation I have done for the State Gov- tioned in the other House and he Informed emments though this will very marginally the House that witheffectfromfirst October, change in view of the amendments to the rates of interest on various Shall Savings Finance Bm. Overall, the states share of instruments are also being revised upwards. taxes and duties m 1991-92 wUI be substan- tialy higher at Rs. 16255 crores compapsd SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE: to Rs. 14535 crores in the Revised Esti What about Consignment Tax ? What is mates for1991. Overall, the total resources your response to that ? proposedto betransferredtothe stales and the Union Tenltory Govemments in the SHRI MANMOHAN SII4GH: Weil, on Budget Estimates for 1990-91. It has an Consignment Tax I have had extensive dis increase of over Rs. 5000 crores. Let me cussions with the Chief Minister of West share with this House one aspect. There was an intense pressure on me saying; 'in Bengal and I think we have set in motion a astuatkmlnwhichyouare placed, the least process. Within a period of two to three you should do is to impose a cut on Central months, R to my hope that we can find a assistance for State Plans." I said 4hat is solution which will be acceptable to aH the something which I would avoid as far as states. You must not forget that there are possftle. Despite the eiiwrgency that our dRferenoes of opinion on this mater. But I am country faces, I have succeeded in insulat making every effort to see that these things ing the State Govemments from that sort of can be handled satisfactorily in the next two acuL 61 Fkianoe (No.2) BHADRA23,1913 (SAKA) m 1991 62 to three months. I have explained this in glass industry in our country. As far as I great detail to the hon. Chief Minister. remember, I have not Imposed any addi tional burden on this industry. But I do note SHR1 SOMNATH CHATTERJEE that the present levy is considered exces (Bolpur): He has said that he needs two to sive and ther^ore, I wouM like to give you three months time. the background of the present situation. For the labour Intensive nwuth btown process, SHRI NIRiMAL KArm CHATTERJEE the excise duty, at the moment Is only 15 per : That Is welcome. cent. For the automatic sector, the excise duty on containers Is no doubt forty percent. SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH : I think But a substantial portton of these containers about the Cooperative Banks I took note of go to the lk)uor industry. Reductk>n in excise what was sakl on the floor of this House. As duty will result in the substantial revenue far as Agricultural Cooperative Banks are toss which is about Rs. 120 crores in a full concerned, as far as Primary Cooperative year. Societies are concerned, as far as Land MortgageBanks are concerned, lhave taken As far as plastic containers are con them totally out of the purview of the tax cerned, they attract tax of only fifteen per reduction as well as the interest tax. cent if MODVAT is taken into account. But duty on plastk: granules is 30 per cent. Several Members particularly from Maharashtra and Gujarat— because these Reganling the paper container, ex are the States where urban cooperative cise duty on waste paper Is about 30 per banks flourish - have brought to me certain cent. Users of glass containers in the aer diff k»iltles. Even though I am not In a posi ated water sector, dutiable drugs, cosmet tion today to promise them that I can do ics, wiliin any case getthe MODVATbenefiL something yet I think I will reflect on the type Therefore, they do not have to worry about of concems that they have expressed. It Is this 40 per cent as It stemds. Any reduction not my intentton in any way to hurt the will also reduce the duty advantage enjoyed cooperative movenrant whether it Is in the by the labour Intensive mouth blown glass urban areas or in the rural areas because I industry. This is the present position. There do feel that an healthy cooperative move fore, I regret to say that.l have not tieen able ment In our country provkles an in^rtant to do anything furtherforthe glass Industry. impetus for the protection of the weaker But I wouM further reflect in the coming secttons of our society. months if something genuinely needs to be done. Some other points have been raise. Shri Kashiram Rana mentioned that the Several Mentwrs brought up a prob addlttonal excise duty Inpiace of sales tax lem of panel doors and sakl that this was a shouM be shifted-to the fiber stage yam taxation on the small scale sector. The stage to check evasion of excise duty at the position with regard to the panel door is that fabric stage. This matter has been dis the excise duty of 30 per cent has been cussed with several states. But I have to levied on panel doors t>ecause such doors informthatthe Chief Minister of Maharashtra are functional and price - wise comparable has suggested that thte mater need be to flushdoorswhtoh are already sutH^ed to discussed further in the Inter- State Council 30 per cent duties. Even price • wise flush before any decision is taken. So, when the doors and panel doore are in the same brter-State Councii takes a decision, we range, vyfhlle It is true that the panel doore wouW take further actton in this matter. are generally manufactured in the smaH - scale sector, the Item Is covered under the R was Shrlmati Vasundhara Rs^e who small - scale exemption scheme under which, brought up this tosue of the taxatkm on the first clearances up to a value of Rs. 20 lakhs ^ Finance (t>to.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 m 1991 64 {Sh. Man Mohan Singh] Now I do recognise that air-condltloning sometimes Is necessary. I am not saying pdr year are fully exempted from excise that we shoukl not air-condition restaurants. duty. Sutisequent dearanoes up to a value But I do believe that in a countiy as poor as of Rs. 75 lakhs are required to pay a duty at ours, those who have resources to go the the concessional rale of 20 per cent forsuch air-conditioned restaurants, share a part of panel doors. their expenditure with the exchequer. If there are any administrative problems, I think, we Several other Members raised this woukj remain alert. It is not my intentton to question— Ithink, Dr. Debi Prasod Paifrom harass any honest tax-payere. If any admin this skle of the House brought out this Issue istrative problems In Implementing this par of depreciation— as to why I have reduced ticular piece of taxatton are brought to my the depredation. Quite honestly, I have notice, I would, I think, remain alert. (Inter- reducedthe depreciation rate as a measure njptlons) of resource mobillsatton. If resource posi- tkm Improves. Icould reconsider fo change Several Membere have questtoned the depreciation rate because this Is not my the need for interest tax. ftow In the present Intention In any way to hurt the health of situation, in whteh inflation is atthe rate of 15 Indian industry. It Is only by creating and percent, some increase in the interest rates generating more wealth In this countiy that is necessary if we want to maintain the we can solve the basic problems of povei^ viability of our banking industry. Several and under-devetopment. But iface an emer Members have mentioned here that many gency situation where the corporate profits banks are stek. Now if banks pay a competi are booming but the revenue of the State is tive rate of interest on deposits, if they are In the state of distress. And I have no other not in a posRton to charge comparat>ie inter alternativebut, I think, to soak a little bit the est rates fromtheirborrowers, if k>an k>sses corporate sector. go on multiplying, whether as a result of k>an melas or k>an waivers, this wouki have a As far as I understand, the share grave effect on the health of our banking maikets have taken It well. They have taken system. I can assure you tiiat while there It well. They have taken It In their strkles. should be no alarm about the overall situa Therefore, nobody need wony that what I tion. I am not very pleased the way the have done on the depredatton front, will Indian banking system Is functtoning. If we necessarily halt a dbnate for investment in do not change ourway, lthink.wewoukiend our country. up making this vital industry as also a very sick industry. When the finandal sector Several Members also brought out becomes sk^k. all our development objec the questkMi of valuation of the shares and tives. whkih are sought to be achieved there, I have tpade some amendments. I through the banking system wouM also, I kitroduoed the avereging principles which think, tw In jeopardy, flterefore, I need tlie wouki, I believe, substantially take care of support of this House to see that the banking the points that Dr. Devi Prasod Pal and system is depoHtidsed to the maximum some other Members made on this subject. extent possible, thattop level bank appoint ments are made on merits, that bank loans With regard to expenditure tax on alr- are not given on politteal conskleratlons condttkMied restaurants, I think, there was because that Is the only way we can main justMed critldsm that the qualifying cifteria tain the health of the banking systera probably needed nxxWlcation. In deference to the wishes of several Membere on both As regards the interest tax. It Is once sUet of the House. I have now made an again an emergency measure. It Is a fiscal unambiguous commitment that this tax will measure with a monetary bnpacL It was apply only to alr-conditkNied restaurants. levied In 1974. When Inflation sNuatkm hn- 65 Finance (No£) BHADRA23.1913(S4K4) m 1991 66 proved, it was removed. K was again ievied regains its position. And it is my intention to In 1980. It was again removed wiien the reduce the fiscal deficit to 6.5 per cent of our Inflation situation Improved. My own feeling GDP. I mean this because my credbility Is Is ttiat If you follow my advice. In three years’ at stake if I do not succeed and that would time, the inflation rate in this country will be be a minus point. I do not want to stop there. comparat>ie to inflation rate in any other It Is my intention to pereist on this path forthe country, if I succeed that, I would have next twoto three years. Inthefoliowingyear, brought down the interest rates to no more I propose to reduce this deficit to about 5 than 5 per cent to 7 per cent, that would percent of GDP and thereafter, do a further usher in a new era In the history of India’s consolidation so that at the end of the third development But there are no instant rem year, India’s fiscal system regains Its edies for the chronic problems that our normalcy, so that tt t>ecomes a source of country has. Our country’s productivity has strength to revitalise our planning process. remained low year after year. These things win talce time to correct The fiscal system is I also want to point out that the proc also far from good. The tax administration, ess of structural reforms that we have in many ways, is farfrom being what it ought launched is not a one-sided affair. Fiscal to be. Ail this will taice time. Now, in the consolidation Is a pre-condition for this. But meanwhile, the country must have patience. it must be followed by reforms In the trading It must accept the logic of financial dik;ipiine system. We have b^un this process. because without financial discipline, no so cial justice is possible. We must leam what Now. we cannot stop there, lhad been is happening in Yugoslavia. We must leam abroad in Geneva where GATT is located. what is happening in the Soviet Union. Their Whenever I went to the meetings, people political problems and the political disinte dsk me about our customs duties. And then gration of one vbrant society are rooted In i pointed out that our customs duties are the basic malfunctioning of the society. And sometintes 500 percent or 300 percent or if we do not correct these distortions at 150 percent or 100 percent People laugh at source, then as Shri Fernandes pointed out it. The wortd has changed beyond recogni yesterday, that Bihar will go the way of tion and India cannot live In isolation. There Assam, the situation will become bad. And fore, we have to taite note of winds of I do worry about that. changes. Several Members on this side and the In Europe there is a common market. other side refened to the problems of North- The whole of Europe is becoming one com Eastem India. Now, these are the states mon market with no tariff barriere. which are totally depending on the Central Government for financing their administra The United States, Mexico and even tion and for financing their development Latin America are talking of one common Today, Jammu and Kashmir is abig drain on maiket East Asia, Japan and the whole the central exchequer. Even the richest Pacifk: region is going to twcome one com States of the Union lilte Punjab are a big mon market. If you people think that you drain on national exchequer. How will a coukl be an exception to what is happening banknq>t central treasury go to the help of in the rest of the wortd, that the rest of the North-Eastom States? How will It provide world can dismantle tariff barriers and that resources for the development of Jammu this blessed country of ouis can suivlve. and KMhmlr? How wiH it provide resources flourish and achieve its national and interna to taice care of the regional imbalances to tional anMtons by the types of tariff re which ShrlOeorge Femandes pointedly drew gimes and quota regimes that we have our attention yesten^y? I thlni< all of us have followed, then I am afrakJ, you are certainly a coliective responsibility to correct this fis mistaken. When we will go abroad, people cal mess and see that India’s fiscal system will say that these are men and women fri>m 67 Finance (No.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 1991 68 [Sh. Man Mohan Singh] ment, which is the basis of a sound banking system. Our banks are committed to social . mats. Therefore, we must modernise our banking. Let me be very clear. I think, there tariff system. It is my intention, in the next is no base for any fear that we are going to five years, to drastically reduce the degree renege on our commitment to use the bank of protection that has tieen enjoyed by the ing system as a major Instrument of devel Indian industry. opment. Social banking in this country has come to stay. The challenge is not to renege Shri Fernandes refened to the prob on that commitment but to make social lems of poverty. How has India become poor banking also profitable banking. And that is ? There is a conspiracy of silence when we the challenge that banks must face. Banks talk about the root causes of poverty in this must serve the needs of oursociety, particu country. Now. all these years. In the name of larly the needs of the poorer sections, the planned development, we have provided artisans and small industrialists. But they indiscriminate protection to Indian industry. must, simultaneously, remain as viable en And when you give protection to somebody, tities because if they are not healthy, they this protection is at the cost of somebody cannot perform the functions whteh we want else. The rural sector, the farmere of this them to perform. Therefore, financial re country have bee n the worst sufferers of this forms are very important. excessive protection that has been given to the Indian industry. (Inteniiptions) In the same way, the role of the man agement and the working of our public sec SHRI HARIN PATHAK (Ahmedabad) tor is an integral part of the reform process. : All these years. Congress has been ruling A pubik: sector whteh is profitable, whteh is this country. What is their contribution ? dynamk: and which is the pace-setter in (Interruptions) technologteal devetopment, is a source of great strength to our country. But a public SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: People sector whk;h absorbs and sucks resources tak about fertilizer prices. Why is the ferti year after year, and which does not gener lizer industry inefficient like other indus ate resources, I can assure you, neither tries? All our Industries are excessively pro helps growth, nor does it help to promote the tected. There is no intention to reduce the cause of social justk». costs and they operate in isolation. If we have a more competitive economy, they We admit that these are the critical would have justified themselves in the mar issues. Not that I have provided solutions to ket place. If they are not efficient and if we all these problems, but what I have done is, have a society which is responsive to the I think I have bought time for this country to needs of consumers, then you will find that reflect on these criticai areas. In months to In that process you wouM reduce this grow come, this country must find a more mean ing gap between the urban and rural areas. ingful nattonal consensus so that we can together evolve a new Indian approach to Therefore, the reform of the protection sys dealing with these problems. This we owe to tem is an integralpart of the reform process. ourselves, this we owe to our chiklren and this we owe to our grand children. It Is only In the same way is the reform of the when we find solutions to these problems, financial system. I have already mentioned we wouM regain for this country, the pres about the health of the banking industries. tige that this country deserves. We have in Someone in this House mentioned about our native language, Punjabi, a saying the loan melas. I do not deny the contribu ‘ Duniya maandi jora din, lakh lahnat tion of loan melas. But I think, equally grave kamzoran din*. You cannot have an inde is the contribution of the massive scheme of pendent foreign polcy on the basis of a toan waivers whtoh has hurt the credit collapsing economy. If you have any Inter worthiness, which has hurtthe axis of repay national ambitions and why shouM a country 69 Finance (No.2) BHADRA23,1913(SAK4) 1991 70 of 850 million people with a great civilization, Page 5, line 45,- which has given so much to the world, not have international ambition? Why should we add at the end- not have ambition of having a major share on the international arena? But that can "and the sum received from time to become reality not by speaking In the time in the money back scheme” (20) United Nations but on the basis of what we do here to revitalise our economy; to make [Englbh] Indiaan internationally competitive econon^ so that the foreigners take seriously what MR. SPEAKER : I shall now put the happens here and we become a part of the amendment moved by Shri Bhargava to the worid economy. We give and we take. That vote of the House. is the only base on which you can regain the respect of the rest of the world. This Budget Amendment No. 20 was put and nega- is a part of that strategy. tived With these words I commend the Fi nance Bill to this august Houes. MR. SPEAKER: Now thequestton Is: That Clause 5 stand part of the Biir MR. SPEAKER: The question is That the Bill to give effect to the The Motion was adc^nted rinanclal proposals of the Central Govern ment for the financial year 1991-92, be aause 5 was added to the Bill taken Into conskleration.* MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend The motion was adopted ments to clause 6, Now, the question Is : MR. SPEAKER: Now, we will take up That clause 6 stand part of the Bill* Clause-by-Clause conskleration of the Bill. Since there are no amendments to Clause TTte Motion m«9S adopted. 2,3 and 4, I shall now put Clause 2 to 4 to the vote of the House. Clause 6 was added to the BIIL The questton is : Clause? That Clause 2 to 4 stand part of the Amendment made: Bill." Page 6, for clause 7, substitute,- The Motion was adopted *7, Insectton 12Aofthe Income-tax Clauses 2 to 4 were added to the BIK Act, in clause (a) for the proviso, the foitowlng proviso shall be sub Clauses 5- Amendment of Section 10 stituted. with effect from the 1st MR. SPEAKER: There is an amend- day of October. 1991, namely:- mentto clause 5, suggested by ShrlOlrdhari Lai B^algava. Mr. Bhargava, are you mov *Piovkled that where an applk»- ing your amendment? tion for registration of the trust or institution is made after the expiry [TranslatlonJ of the period aforesakl, the provi- stons of secttons 11 and 12 shall 8HRI QIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA apply In relatton to the income of (Jaipur): I beg to move: such trust or institution,- 71 Fktance(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14,1991 BKI. 1991 72 [Sh. Qirdhaii Lai Bhargava] SHRI GIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA (Jaipur): i beg to move: (0 fromthedateofthecreationof the trust or the establishment Page 7, Une 17;- or the Institution if the Chief Commissioner or Commis for ‘inserted, namely* substitute- sioner Is, for reasons to be recorded In writing, satisfied ‘Inserted with effect from the 1st day that the person in receipt of ofApril, 1982, namely* (37) the income was prevented from malting the application Page 7, lines 45 and 46;- before the expiiy of the period aforesaid for sufficient rea- For * seventy-five thousand rupees‘ sons;- Substitute the limit as may be pre scribed* (38) (10 from the 1 st day of the finan cial year In which the applica MR. SPEAKER: There are also Gov tion Is made, if the Chief Com ernment amendments. Shri Manmohan missioner or comnnissioner is Singh. not so satisfied,* Amendments made: (49) ‘Page 7, in lines 33 to 35, for live (Shri Manmohan Singh) thousand rupees. In the previous year, in the case of the employees and MR. SPEAKER : The question is : further five thousand rupees In the case of his family; *,Substitute *ten That clause 7, as amended, stand partoftheBlir thousand nipees in the previous yearf (50) The Motion was adopted ‘ Page 7, in lines 33, /or* Seventy-five Clause 7, as amended, was added to the thousand Sutefffuto‘one iaith’ (51) m (Shri Manmotian Singh) MR. SPEAKER: There is no amend- nnent to clause 8, Now the question Is: MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the Amendments number 37'and 38 moved by That Clause 8 stand part of the Blir Shri GIrdharilai Bhargava to the vote of the House. The Motion was adopted Amendments No. 37 and 38 were put and negatived Clause 9- Amendment of section 17 MR. SPEAKER: The question Is: MR. SPEAKER: There is an amend That aause 9, as amended, stand ment suggested by Dr. Debi Prosad pal, are partoftheBlir you moving? The Motion was ad<^ed DR. DEBI PROSAD PAL (Calcutta North-West): No. aause 9. as amended, was addedto the Bin MR. SPEAKER : Shri Girdhari U l Bhargava, are you moving your amend MR. SPEAKER: There is no amend ment? ment to clause 10 - Now the question Is: 73 Fhanoe (No.2) BHADRA 23.1913 (SAM) BUI, 1991 74 Tha t clause 10 stand part of the Biir In one or more years under an agreement The Motion was adopted entered into by the Central govern ment under section 42.* (52) Clause 10 wia added to the BIH (Shri Manmohan Singh) Clause<11 AmemUnent of Section 32 MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the MR. SPEAKER: There are Amend Amendment number 8 moved by Shri ments suggested by Shri Jaswant Singh. Jaswant Singh to the vote of the House. Dr. Laxminarayan Pandeya and Shri Rajendra Agnlhotri. Shri Jaswant Singh, are Amendment No. 8 was put and nega- you moving your Amendment? tived SHRIJASWANTSiNGH (Chlttorgarh) MR. SPEAKER: The question is : : I beg to move: That clause 11. as amended, stand Page 8, • part of the Bill.* Omit lines 8 to 13 (8) The Motion was adopted MR. SPEAKER: There is also a Gov Clause 11. as amended, was added to ernment Amendment. theBa Amendment miKJe: MR. SPEAKER : There no amend ments to clauses 12 to 14. 18. /or lines 3 to 7, substitute, - The question is : (a) for the second proviso, the follow ing proviso shall be substituted, That clause 12 to 14 stand part of the namely :• Biir The Motion was adopted. *Providedfurtherthat nodeduction shall be allowed under this clause Clauses 12 to 14 were added to the Bit In respect pf - (a) any motor car manufactured out Clausel 5- Insertion of new section in side India. 43D where such motor car is acquired by the MR. SPEAKER: There is a Govern assess afterthe 28th day of Febru ment Amendment ary. 1975, unless it is used- Amendment made: (0 In a business of running it on hire for tourists; or *Page 9. in lines 13 and 14, o/nff*wlth effectfromthelstday of April. 1992. (53) (II) Outside India In his business or profession in another coun (Shri Manmohan Singh) try: and MR. SPEAKER: The question Is: (b) anymachlneryorplantKtheactual cost thereof It allowed 88 a deduc That Clause 15, as amended, stand tion part of the B r . 75 Fbiance(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14,1991 Bill, 1991 76 The motion was adopted aauses 20 to 25 were added to the BIU Clause IS as amended, was added to the Clause 26 Amendment of Section 80 Q Btt SHRI GIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA; I MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend beg to move: ments to clauses 16 to 18. Page 10,- Now the question is: omH lines 51 to 54 (22) That clause 16 to 18 stand part of the Biir MR. SPEAKER: Ishall nowput amend ment no. 22 moved by Shri Girdharilal The Motion was adopted Bhargava to the vote of the House. Clause 16 to 18 were added to the BW The Antendment No. 22 was put and negatived Clause t9~Amendment of Section 48 MR. SPEAKER: The question is SHRi QIRDHARILAL BHARGAVA: I beg to move: That Clause 26 stand part of the Bill*. Page 9, line 53. - The Motion was adopted 1or“ fifteen thousand rupees* substi Clause 26 was added to the Bill tute nhirty thousand rupees* (21) MR. SPEAKER: There are no anrwnd- ments to clause 27. MR. SPEAKER :lshail now put amend ment no. 21 moved by Shri Girdharilal The question is : Bhargava to the vote of the House. That Clause 27 stand part of the Bill’ The amendment was put and negatived The Motion Was adopted MR. SPEAKER: The question is : Oause 27 was adctod to the BIH That Clause 19 stand part of the Bill.' Clause 28- Amendment of Section 80 The Motion was adopted riflLfUUZ' Clause 19 was adUM to the Bn SHRI JASWANT SINGH : I beg to move: MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend ments to clause 20 to 25. Page 12. The question is : omit lines 23 to 27 (9) That clauses 20 to 25 staild part of SHRI BHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT the Bill.* (Agra): I beg to move: The Motion was adopted Page 12.- 77 Finance (No.2) BHADRA23,1913(S/VC4) 1991 78 ftw lines 23 to 27, substnute- substitute ‘ninety percent of any sum refenred to in clauses (Ilia), (iiib) and (i)afterclause (a), thefollowingclause (iiic) of section 28 or of any receipts*. shall be inserted, naniely:- (55) ‘(aa) Provisions of section 80 HHD of (ShrlManmohanSingh) the income-tax Act regarding Hotels ortour operators shall also t>e applica MR. SPEAKER; Ishallnowput amend ble to the sale proceeds in foreign ment no. 9 moved by Shri Jaswant Singh, exchange in ashop,ennporlumorany amendment no. 31 moved by Shri Bhagwan other establishment situated in India Shankar Rawat and amendment No. 39. under ‘export out of India.* (31) nrx>ved by Shri Girdharilal Bhargava to the vote of the House. SHRIGIRDHARILAL BHARGAVA: I beg to move: Amendments No. 31 and 39 were put and negatived Page 12,- MR. SPEAKER: The questton is : for lines 23 to 27 sulistitute- * That Clause 28 as amended stand (I) afterclause(a),thefollowingclause part of the Bill* shall be Inserted, namely:- The motion was adopted (a) “Export out of India * shall inciudeanytransactionbyway Clause 28 as amended, was added to the of sale or othenvise to foreign BU tourist giving undertaking to canygoodsoutof India against Clause 29 - Amendment of Section 80 convertible foreign exchange HHD in a shop emporium or any other establishment situated Amendments made: in India.* (39) Page 13, om/ir lines 15 to 25 (56) Amendments made; Page 13, in One25/or*(e)*, subsOuto 11, after line 57, insert, • ■(d)*. (57) t>rDvlded that the profits computed underdause (a) ordause (b) ordause Page 13, in line 30, and 31 o/nff, *as (0) of this sub-section shall be further reduced by the payments made by him to increased by the amount which bears the otherassess as referred to in the proviso to ninety percent of any sum referred to sub-section (3)*. (58) to In clause (ilia) (not being profits on sale of a license acquired from any Page 13, in line 32 for, *(f), subsOtute other persons), and dauses (iiib) and •(c)*. (59) (iiic), of section 28, the same propor tion as the export turnover bears to (Shri Mannwhan Singh) the total turnover of the business car ried on by the assess.* (54) MR. SPEAKER: The questton is : Page 12. in line 39,/Ssr "That dause 29, as amended, stand part of the Bill.* "nbiety per cent of any receipts’ . 79 Fkmno»(No^) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 m 1991 80 The motion was suioplBd Page 17, in line 10 for thirty-five’ , Clause 29. as sumndod, ¥os adiiodto substitute "sixty”. (61) theBK (Shri Manmohan Singh) ClauaaSO-lnseftionofNew SectlonBO HHE Mm. SPEAKER: The questton Is: MR. SPEAKER : Clause 30. Shrl 'That aause32 as amended, stand Manmohan Singh to move an amendment part of the BHL” ClaiiMSO The motion was adopted Amendment made: Clause 32, as amended, was added to theBU Page 13, after Ine 54 Insert, MR. SPEAKER :Shrl Manmohan Explanation,— The said considera Singh. tion shall t » deemed to have been received in India where it is credited to a separate SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: I beg to account maintained for the purpose by the assess with any bank outside India with approval of the Reserve bank of India. (60) * That this House do suspend clause (I) of rule 80 of the Rules of Procedure (Shrl Manmohan Singh) andConduct of Business in LokSabha in so far as It requires that an amend MR. SPEAKER: The questton is : ment Shan be within the scope of the Bill and relevant to the sut)|ect matter “That Clause 30, as amended, stand of the clause to whtoh It relates, in Its part of the BRI. appltoatton to Oovemnwnt amend ment fyk). 62tothe Finance (No.2) BUI, The motion was adopted 1991 and that this amendment may be allowed to be nKwed.* Clause 30 as amended, was added to the BM MR. SPEAKER: The questton Is: MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend * That this House do suspend clause ments to clause 31 (I) of rule 80 of the Rules of (Procedure andComtoctofBusbiess in LokSabha The questton is; in so far as it requires that an amend ment shaH be within the scope of the That clause 31 stand part of the Bur. BiNandrelevanttothesub|ect matter of the clause to which It relates, in Hs The Motion was adopted applicalton to Qovemment amend ment No. 62 to the Finance (No.2) Bill, Clause 31 was added to me BK 1991 and that this amendment may be allowed to be moved.” Ctauae 32 • Aisertfon of AfeMr Sectton 00- lA The motion was adopted MR. SPEAKER :There is an amend NmvelauM32A ment. No. 61 to clause 32. Anrwndment made: Amemfanent made; 81 Fkiance(No.2) BHAORA23.1913(SM/C4) m 1991 82 ■Page 17. after line 15. Insert. - (e) in the third proviso, for the words ‘Provided also*. *32A. In section SOL of the In co m e ^ Act, in sub-section (I), for sut>«lause the word Trovided*shall be substi (la), the following sub-dause shaH be tuted; substituted, with effect from the 1st day of April. 1992. nameiy:- (0 in the Explanation. afterdauseOO. the following clause shall be in "(fi) interest on Nationai Savbigs Cer serted. nameiy:- tificates (VI issue) or National Saving Certificates (VII Issue) or National ”(ni) services rendered or agreed savings Certificates (VIII issue) Is to be rendered outside India sued under the Government Savings shall include services renderad Certificates Act. 1959.* (62) from Indiabutshali not Include services rendered in India.” (Shrl IManmohan Singh) (63) lUlR. SPEAKER: The question is: (Shrl Manmohan Singh) That new Clause32Abeaddedtothe MR. SPEAKER: The question Is: Bln.* That clause 33. as amended, stand The motion was adopted partoftheBflL” NBwOau8032A was added to thoBa Via Motion WM adopted Clause 33 - ^/nsnctmnf of Sdcfton 00 Clajsa33,asamendad,misaddedt0 ttteBU Amendrrvnt made; MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend *Page 17. /or clause 33, substtMa,- ments to clauses 34 to 36. *33. In section 80-0 of the Income-tax The question Is: Act, with effect from the 1 st day April, 1992.- That Clauses 34 to 36 stand part of the Bln.* (a) after the words *an Indian com pany”. the words and braclcets *or The motion was adopted a person (other than a company) who is resident In India’ shall be Clauses 34 to 36 ware added to thaBU Insetted; Clause 37 • Amendment of Sectkin 88 (b) for the words *technicai services'’. thewords*lechnicalorprofesslonai SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA services* shal be Inserted; (MadhubanI): I beg to move: (c) the words *under an agrsement -Page 18,- approved In this behalf bythe Chief Commlssionerorthe DhedorOen- after Rne 12. Insert • eral.*-8talbeomlited: *(e)asmaa scale Industries unlL’ (15) (d) the first and second provision shaa beomUed; MRSPEAKER:l8 hafinowpUamend- 83 Fkmnoe(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 m 1991 84 msnt No. 15 move by Shri Bhogendra Jha to the foHowIng clauses shaH be substi the vote of the House. tuted with effect from the 1st day of October. 1991, namely:- Amendment, No.15wasputand negatived ‘(vll) to such income credited or pakl In respect of deposits (otherthan time 14U» hrs. deposits) with a banking company to whteh the Banking Regulatton Act, MR. SPEAKER: The question Is: 1949, applies (Including any bank or banking instttutkm referred to In sec- *ThalClause37 stand part of the Bill.* ttonSI of that Act); The motion was adopted ^ la ) to such Income credited or paM in respect of. — Clause 37 was added to theBU (a) deposits with a primary agricultural MR. SPEAKER: Thera are no aniend- credit society or a primary credit ments to clauses 38 to 50. society oracooperatlve land nrx>rt- gage bank or a cooperative land Now the question Is: development t>ank; That clauses 38 to 50 stand part of (b) deposits (otherthan time deposits) the Bill. with a cooperative society other than a cooperative society or bank The motion was adopted referred to In sub-clause (a), en gaged In carrying on the business Clauses 38 to 50 were added to the Big of banking: ClauM SI - Amendment of Section 194A Explanation. — For the purposes of clauses (vH) and (vlla). Hmedeposlts’ means SHRI RAM KAPSE (Thane): I beg to deposits (excluding recurring deposits) re move: payable on the expiry of fixed periods.*. (64) Page 20.- (Shri Manmohan Singh) /or clause 51 subsfflute - MR.SPEAKER:Now, Iwlliputamend- ment no. 1, moved by Shri Ram Kapse. to *51. In section 194A of the Income dause 51 to the vote of the House. Tax Act. In sut>-section 3, In clause (vH). the words, figures and brackets The amendment wte put and negaOved “with a banking company to whtoh the Banking Regulation Act. 1949af>plies MR. SPEAKER: The questton Is: (Including any bank or banking Institu- ttonretenwdtoinsectkmSi oftheAct. That Clause 51 as amended, stand or*shall be omitted «vlth effect from the part of the BHi.* 1st day of October. 1991. (1) The Motion was adopted Amendment made: Oause 51, as amended, meaddedto Page 20, for clause 51. substitute,— theBa ’51. insectton l94Aof the Income-tax Omte* 5 2 -Amendment of Section 194 Act, In 8ut>-sectk)n (3), fordause (vIO, 85 Fkianoe (No.2) BHADRA 23.1913 (SAKA) m 1991 86 [Translation] for Iwo thousand five hundred ru- SHRI GIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA suijstnute "twenty five thousand ru (Jaipur): I beg to move pees’ (2) Page 20.— SHRI ANNA JOSHI (Pune): I beg to move: for clause 52, substitute— Page 20,— afterline 59 52. In section 194BB of the Income- tax for the words five thousand ru Insert— ’Provided also that nothing pees’ The words *ten thousand ru contained in this section shall apply to pees* shaii be substituted.’ (23) the payment of the said amount when a person gives a declaration to the [EngllshJ effect that he has paid the tax in advance after considering the total Amendment made income by way of interest*. (3) Page 20, for clause 52 substitute,— SHRIJASWANTSINGH (Chittorgarh) : I beg to move: '52. In section 194BB of the Income- tax Act, for the words five thousand Page 20, line 57, — rupees’ , the words two thousand five hundred rupees’ shall be substituted for Iwo thousand five hundred ru with effect from the 1st day of Octo pees’ ber. 1991.’ (65) Substltute“t9n thousandfive hundred rupees’. (10) (Shrl Manmohan Singh) [Translation] MR. SPEAKER: The Amendment no. 23 to Clause 52, moved by Shri Girdharilai SHRI GIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA Bhargava to the vote of the House. (Jaipur): I beg to move: Amendment No. 23 was put and Page 20 line 57.— ■negatived for “two thousand five hundred ru- MR. SPEAKER: The question is : sut)stttute *twenty thousand rupees* That Clause 52, as amended, stand (24) part of the Bill.’ [EngHshJ The motion was a d o f ^ MR. SPEAKER : Now. I will put Clause 52 as amended, wasaddedtothe amendment No. 2 and 3 to Clause 53 Moved by Shrl Ram Nak and Shri Anna Joshi to the vote of the House. Cteuw 53 - Amendment of Section 194EE Amendments M>. 2 and 3 were put negatived SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay - North): I beg to move: M a SPEAKER: Now. Iwlllput amend ment No. 10 to Clause 53 moved by Shri Page 20. line 57.— Jaswant Sing to the vote of the House. 87 Finance (No.2) SEPTEMBER 14,1991 Bill, 1991 88 Amendment No. 10 was put and Page21,- negatived. after line 18 inset1- MA. SPEAKER: Ishall nowputamend- ment No. 24 moved by Shri Girdhari lal ·provided that the recipient of the ; r Bhargava to the vote of the House. commission or brokerage who retains $ the said commission or brokerage or Amendment No. 24 was put and in any other manner is in receipt of the negatived. same without being given by the per- son responsible for paying the said MA. SPEAKER: The question Is : commission or brokerage shall be required to deposit the Income-tax "That clause 53 stand part of the Bill." deductible at source, namely at the rate of ten per cent on the amount of The motion was adopted. commission or brokerage so retained or received by him and all the provi- Clause 53 was added to the Bill sions applicable to the person respon- sible for paying the commission or Clause 54 - Insertion of New Section brokeraqe shall apply to such 194G and 194H recelplent of the commission or bro- kerage accordingly." (43) [Translation] [EngliSh] SHRI GIRDHARI LAl BHARGAVA (Jalpur) : I beJto move : SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH :Sir,l beg to move; Page ,line 8,- Page 21, for line 5, substitute,- for 'en percent" substitute five percent" (25) "Wayof commission, remuneration or prize (by whatever name called) on Page 21,IIne 18,- such tickets In an amount exceeding one thousand rupees shall, at the". for ten per cent" substitute (66) "fIve per cent" (26) Page 21, for lines 19 to 22, substi- Page 21, line 22,- tute, - for ~o thousand five hundred ru- "(2) The provisions of sub-section (1) pees" shall not apply - subslMe 'en thousand rupees· (27) (a) to such persons or class or of [EngliSh] persons as the Central Gov- ernment may, having regard MA. SPEAKER: Amendments No.42 to the extent of inconvenience and 44 are same as amendment No. 27. So, caused or likely to be caused they are not being moved. to them and being satisfied ....• that it will not be prejudicial to r [Translation] the interests of the revenue, by notification In the Official SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI : I beg to Gazette, specify Inthis behalf: move: 89 Finance (No.2) BHAORA 23,1913 (SAKA) Bil/, 1991 90 (b) where the amount of such in- classes of persons as the come or, as the case may be, Central Government may, the aggregate of the amounts having regard to the extent of of such income credited or inconvenience caused or likely paid or likely to be credited or to be caused to them and be- paid during the financial year ing satisfied that it will not be by the person referred to in prejudicial to the interests of sub-section (1) to the account the revenue, by notification in of, or to, the payee, does not the official Gazette. specify in exceed two thousand five hun- this behalf; dred rupees." (67) (b) where the amount of such in- MA. SPEAKER: Ishall now put amend- come or, as the case may be, ments No. 25, 26 ahd 27, to clause 54, the aggregate of the amounts moved by Shri Girdhali Lal Bhargava to the of such income credited or vote of the House. paid or likely to be credited or paid during the financial year Amendments No. 25. 26 and 27 were put by the person referred to in and negatived sub-section (1) to the account of, or to the payee, does not exveed two thousand five hun- MR. SPEAKER: Ishall now put amend- dred rupees." (67) ment No. 43, to clause 54, moved by Shrl Oau Oayal Joshi to the vote of the House. The motion was adopted Amendment No. 43 was put and MR. SPEAKER: The question is : negatived "That clause 54, as amended, stand part of the Bill. " MA. SPEAKER: I shall now put Gov- ernment amendments No. 66 and 67 to the The Motion was adopted vote of the House. The question is : Clause 54, as amended, was added to the Bill Page 21, for line 5, substitute, - MA. SPEAKER: There is no amend- ''way of commission, remuneration or ment to clause 55, prize (by whatever name called) on such tickets in an amount exceeding The question is : one thousand rupees shall, at the ". (66) "That clause 55 stand part of the Bill." The motion was adopted The motion was adopted MA. SPEAKER: The question is : Clause 55 was added to the Bill Page 21, for lines 19 to 22, substi- New clause 55A tute, - SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH : Sir, I beg "(2) The porvisions of sub-section (1) to move: shall not apply- "That this House do suspend clause (a) to such persons or class or (i) of Rule 80 of the rules of Procedure 91 Fmanoe(No^) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 flK 1991 92 [Sh. Manmohan Singh] MR. SPEAKER: The question is: andConductof Business In LokSabha ‘That new clause 55A stand part of in so far as It requires that an amend theBm." ment shall be within the scope of the 77)6 motion was adopted. BIN and relevant to the sutHect matter of the clause to which It relates. In Its NSW daiaeSSA was added to the BM application to Government amend ment No. 66tothe Fnance (No. 2) Bill, MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend 1991 and that this amendment may ments to clauses 56 to 58. be allowed to be moved. The (pjestion Is: MR. SPEAKER: The question: That clause 56 to 58 stand part of the *That this House do suspend clause Bin.* (I) of rule 80 of the Rules of Procedure andConductof Business in LolcSabha The motion was adopted in so far as it requires that an amend ment shaH be within the scope of the Clause 56 to ^ were sMed to th e m Blit and relevant to the sut^ect matter of the clause to which H relates, in its &Bua»S9-Amen The motkm was adopted The motion was a Oause 60 to 62 were aided to the mu Clause 65 and 66. wem added to the BIB Clausa 63 Clause 67 Amedment of Section 2 7 ^ Amendment mode: Amendments made: Page 22. in lines 19 and 20 omit ‘out Page 22, for line 44, sul)stitute, - of tlie piaces specified In reiation to otiier Benciies* (70) ‘other assessment year or years if he makes an application to the income- (Sliri Manmohan Singii) tax authority refered to in sub-section (4) at any time before the 1st day of MR. SPEAKER: The question is : April, 1992.* (72) That Clause 63, as amended, stand (Shri Mamohan Singh) partoftheBiir. MR. SPEAKER: The question is: The motion was adopted That clause 67, as amended, stand Ckttise 63, as amended, wastMedto part of the BIIL’ th e m The motion was adopted Clause 64 - Amendment of Section 24SD Clause 67, as amended, was added to Amendment made: the Bn Page 22, in line 23 for “six months’ , sulKtHue *one hundred and twenty Clause 68- Amendment of section 279' days*(71) Amendments made: (Shri Manmohan Singh) Page 23, for line 3, substitute.- MR. SPEAKER :The question is : icompounded by the Chief Commis * That Clause 64 as amended stand sioner or Director General*. (73) part of the B r . (Shri Manmohan Singh) The motion was adopted MR. SPEAKER: The question is: Clause 64. as amended, was added to That Clause 68, as {unended, stand IheBa part of the Br. MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend The motion was adopted ments to clauses 65 and 66. Clause 68. as amended was added to The question is : theBUI Clauameo- Insertion of twelfth schedi^ That clause 65 and 66 stand part of thdBir. Antendments made: 95 Fkmnoe(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14,1991 BU.1991 96 Pag e 23. m Aw 27, for*cnishing and MR. SPEAKER: I shaH now put the screening* amendment moved by Shrt Oau DayidJoshi substitute *screening orcnishbig and to the vote of the House. screening*. (74) The amendment No. 45 was put and Page 23, in Une3l ,for‘rocks*. substi negatived tute “rocKs including cut and potishad gran MR. SPEAKER: The question is: ite’. (75) That clause 71 stand part of the Bar. (Shri Manmonhan Singh) The motion was adopted MR. SPEAKER: The question is: Clause7l vm added to the BU That clause 69, as amended, stand part of the BUI.* MR. SPEAKER:There are no amend ments to clauses 72 and 73. The motion was adopted The question is: Clause 69. as wnanded, wasaddedto theBU ' That clauses 72 and 73 stand part of theBiir Clause 70 - Consequential amendment The motion was adopted MR. SPEAKER: The question is: Clause 72 and 73 wen added to the BU That clause 70 stand part of the Biir. Clause • 74 Amendnmt otseOlon 18B The moUon was adofted. Amendment made: Clause 70 was added to the tOL Page 24, for line 37, substitute,— Clause 71- Amendment of Section 5 ’other assessment year or yean If he makes an application to the wealth- SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI (Kota): Sir, tax authority refenedto in sub-section Ibegtoniove: (4) at any time before the 1st day of April, 1992.*. (76) Page 24,— (Shri Manmohan Singh) After Hne 5 Insert— MR. SPEAKER: The question Is: (a) aftersubdause (a) of Explanation Ito CiMise (vHO the following proviso That clause 74, as amended, stand shall be inserted, namely:- part of the BBL* *Piovided that the stiMhan jewellery The moton wta adopted for every married lady equivalent to 1,000 grams of gold or ks equivalent Omise 74. as amended, wasaddedto vatueforpredous, semi-preciisuslew- theBM eHery or Jewellery made of metal and other precious metal Mce sOver, plati ClaumTS-Anmuit»ntofsacilon22BA num. shaH not fomfi part of JewellBry* (45) Amendment made: 97 Finance (No.2) BHADRA23,1913(S/VC4) BO. 1991 98 Pag e 24. In linM44and 45, omit "out Page 25. for line 14. substltuto. — of the *by the Chief Commissioner or Direc places specified In relation to otiw tor General.* (79) Benches*. (77) (Shri Manmonhan Singh) (Shri Mannrohan Singh) MR. SPEAKER: The < ^ i o n Is: MR. SPEAKER: the question Is: *That clause 79. as amended, stand That clause 75. as amended, stand part of the BHL* part of the BRL’ The motion was adopted The motion m s s adopted. Clause 79, as amended, wss added to Clause 75. as amended, was added to theBa th e m MR. SPEAKER: The question Is: CtauM 76 - Amendment o1 section 22D -That clause 80 stand part of the BHL* Amendment made: The motion was tulopted Page 24, in line 48, for ‘six month*, substitute Clause 80 tM edto theBa *one hundred and twenty days*. (78) Clause 81 (Shri Manmohan Singh) Amendemet made: IMR. SPEAKER: The question is: Page 25. for lines 28 and 27. sut)sti- That clause 76, as amended, stand tute,— part of the B«i.* (a) in rule 9A,— The motion was adopted (i) after the words *at the option Clause 76 as amended, was added to the of the assessee*. the words BM *or a company* shall tie In setted: MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend ments to clause 77 and 78. (11) forthewords*fourasessmenl years*, wherever they occur, The question Is: the words *nlne assessment years* shall be substituted; That clause 77 and 78 stand part of (80) theBir. (Shri Manmohan Singh) The motton was adopted MR. SPEAKER: The question Is: dauses 77and 78 were added to the Bit That clause 81, as amended, stand dam e-79 part of the BRL* Amendement made: The motion was adopted 99 Finance (N o^) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 m 1991 100 Oaus9 81, as eunended, wasaddedto Ame ndment made: m em Page 26. In lines 14 and 45. for MR. SPEAKER: There are no ' amendements to dauses 82 to 87. "(induding a cooperative land mort gage bank or a cooperative land de The question is: velopment bank)* substitute *not be ing a cooperative society provMIng That clause 82 to 87 stand part of the credit facilities to farmers or village Bill.’ artisans*. (82) The motion was ade^ed (Shrl Manmohan Singh) Clause 82 to 87 weie added to the BUL MR. SPEAKER:lshalinowput amend Clause 88 ment No. 4 moved by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat to the House. Amendment made: An»n MR. SPEAKER: The question is: MR. SPEAKER: The questton Is: *That dause 88, as amended, stand ‘That clause 89. as amended, stand part of the Bill.’ part of the Bill.* The motion was iutopted The motion was adopted Clause 88, as amended, was added to dause 89, as amended, was added to the ffieBBL 80 ClauM 89- Amencbnent of section 2 MR. SPEAKER: There is amendment to dause 90. The question Is: SHRIBHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT That clause 90 stand part of the BUI.* (Agra): Sir, I beg to move: The motion was adopted Page 26. — Omff lines 42 to 45 (4) clause 90 vae added to the BW SHRI RAM NAIK(Bombay-North):Sir. I beg to move: Clause 91- Amendment o! section 4 Page 26. Ines 43 to 45 omit SHRI QIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA (Jaipur): Sir. I beg to move: \>r a cooperativa society engaged In carrying on the business of banking Page 27. line 44,— (including a cooperative land mort gage bank or a cooperative land de for *there percent* substitute- velopment bank*. (5) two percent* (29) 101 Finance (No.2) BHADRA23,1913(S>VC4) 30,1991 102 MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the Now, the question Is: amendment moved by Shri Girdharltal Bhaigava to the vote of the House. Tha t clauses 93 to 107 stand part of the Bill.* The amendment No. 29 was put and negatived The motion was adopted MR. SPEAKER; The question is: Clauses 93 to 107 were added to the BUI. That clause 91 stand part of the Bill. Clause 108 - Substitution of new sections for sections 23 to 26 The motion was adopted Amendment made: Clause 91 was added to the Btt Page 33, in line 10, for Clausa 92 Sut>stiMlon of new section for sections the Board or a Chief Commissioner or a Director*. sut>stitute the Chief Amendment made: commissioner or Director*. (84) Page 27. for line 49, suijstitute,— (Shri Manmohan Singh) ‘credit institutions) accruing or arising to the credit institution in that previous SHRI MANMONAN SINGH: Sir, I beg year: to nrwve: Provided that any interest in relation That the House do suspend clause 1 to categories of bad or doubtful debts of rule 80 of Rules of Procedure and referred to In section 43D of the In Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha in come -tax Act shall be deemed to so far as it requires that an amend accrue or arise to the credit institution ment shall be within the scope of the in the previous year in which it is Bill and relevant to the subject matter credited by the credit Intttution to its of the clause to which it relates in its profit and loss account for that year or, application to Government amend as the case may be, in which it is ment No. 85to the Finance (No.2) Bill. actually received by the credit institu 1991 and that this amendment may tion, whichever is earlier.*.’. (83) be allowed to be moved." (Shri Manmohan Singh) MR. SPEAKER: The question is: MR. SPEAKER: The question is: Thatthe House dosuspendclause 1 of rule 80 of Rules of Procedure and That Clause 92, as amended, stand Conduct of Business in Loit Sabha in part of the BHL’ so far as It requires that an anwnd- ment shall be within the scope of the The Motion was adopted Bill and relevant to the sut^ect matter of the clause to which K relates in its Clause 92. as amended. wastKldedto application to Government amend BM ment No. BStotheRnance (No.2) Bill. 1991 and that this amendnwnt may MR. SPEAKER: There are no amend be allowed to be moved.” ments to clause 93 to 107. The motion was adopted 103 Finance (No^) SEPTEMBER 14,1991 1991 104 Ame ndment made: omi *or have any of the following three facilities, namely:- Page 33. after line 15, insert, — (i) they are equipped with, or have *26C. NothwiUistanding any tiling con access to. facilities for air-condi- tained in any agreement under which tioning; any term loan has been sanctioned by the credit institution before the 1st (IQ they have at least two separate day6 of October, 1991, it shali be doak rooms fitted with modem iawfui for the credit institution to vary sanitary fittings; the agreement, so as to increase the rate of interest stipulated therein to (ill) they have a telephone instaOed the extent to which such institution is therein; Babietopay the interest4ax underthis Act in relation to the anwunt of interest (iv) they are equipped with, or have on the term loan which is due to the access to, cold storage or deep credit institution. freezing facility; (12) ExfOanaOon:- Forthe purposes of this SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA (Madhu' section, *tenn loan” means a loan baniy: Sir. I beg to move: which is not repayable on demand. (85) Page 33, • (Shri Manmohan Singh) omff lines 40 and 41 (18) MR. SPEAKER: The question is: P'ranslatlon] That Clause 108, as amended, stand partofttieBHI.' SHRI QIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA (Jaipur): Sir, I beg to move that The motion was adopted Page 33, after Hne 41. insert— Clause 108, as amended, wasxidedto theBa *(v) they are equipped with central ised video viewing faculty”. (30) MR. SPEAKER: There no amend ments to clauses 109to 111. [EngKsh] The question is: Amendment made: That clauses 109 to 111 stand part of Page 33, for lines 36 to 41. substitute. the BIN.’ Ipremlses. at the t>eginning of any The motton was adopted nx>nth, are equipped with, or have access to, facilities for air-condition aauses 109to 111 wmeaddedtothe ing; •.*(86) BKL (Shri Manmohan Singh) 112 • Amendment of Section 2 MR. SPEAKER: I Shall now put the SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): Amendment Nos. 12,18 and 30 moved by Sir. I beg to move: Shri Ram Nak, Shri BhogendraJhaandShri Qirdhari lal Bhaigava to the vote of the ■Pa ge 33, mes 36 to 41, House. 105 Finance (No.2) BHAORA 23,1913 (SAKA) BSH.1991 106 Amendments Nos. 12,18and 30 were exempted therefrom * (32) put and negatived lEngBsit] MR. SPEAKER: The question is : MR. SPEAKER: I shal now put Amend That clause 112, as amended, stand ment No. 32 nwved i>y Shri Bhagwan part of the Bill.’ Shankar Rawat to the vote of the House. The motion was adopted Amendment No. 32 was put and nega tived. Ciause 112, as amended, was added to VteBiH Transiation] P'ransiation] SHRI LAL K. AOVANI (Gandhinagar): Will the finance Minister still be ready to Clause 113 - substitution of new sections reconsider Income tax exemption limit? I for sections 3 to 5 would request you that it would be better if he considers it today SHRIBHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT (Agra): I t>eg to move that MR. SPEAKER: There are amendments to the First Schedule. Page 3 4 , - SHRI RAM NAIK: I beg to move : alter line 17 insert— Page 37,- •expianation-The expenditure incurred on rent for accommodation hired or for lines 11 to 20 substitute— talten on lease In such hotel for sale of goods In foreign exchange shall be ‘Rates of Income-tax Rates of Income Tax (1) where the total Income does not exceed Nil; (2) where the total income exceeds Rs. 10 per cent of the amount 48.000 but does not exceed which the total income Rs. 60,000 Rs. 48,000; (3) where the total income exceeds Rs. Rs. 1,600 plus 30 per cent 60.000 but does not exceeds Rs.75,000 of the anwunt by which the total income exceeds Rs. 60,000; (4) where the total incime exceeds Rs. 3,450 pftis 20 per cent Rs. 75,000 but does not exceeds the anmunt by which the Rs. 1,00,000 total income exceeds Rs. 75,000; (5) where the total income exceeds Rs. Rs. 8,450 ja/us50peroent. 1,00,000 of the amount by which the total Income total Income exceeds Rs. 1.00,000 107 Fman<»(No.2) SEPTEMBER14.1991 mi. 1991 108 [Tmtslation] emment. (6) The Kmit would be increased upto Rs. 48000/-, hence I move it. SHRIJASWANT SINGH (Chlttorgarh): I beg to move: [English] Page 3 7 - lexpectposttive response from the Gov- for lines 11 to 20 subsMute - 'Rates of kKome-tax (1) where the total income does not exceed Rs. 48,000. Nit (2) where the total income exceeds 20 per cent, of the amount Rs. 48,000 but does not exceed by which the total income Rs. 80,000 exceeds Rs. 48.000; (3) where the total income exceeds Rs. 2.400 plus 30 percent. 60,000 but does not exceed of the amount by which the Rs. 80,000. total income exceeds Rs. 60,000; W where the total Income exceeds Rs. 8.400 plus 35 per cent Rs. 80,000 but does not exceed of the amount by which the Rs. 1,00,000 total income exceeds Rs. 80.000; (5) where the total income exceeds. Fte. 15,400plus 40 percent, Rs. 1,00,000 of the anwunt by which the total Income exceeds Rs. 1,00,000 (13) SHRI BHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT Page 37, - (Agra): 1 beg to move: for lines 11 to 20, substitute • 'Rates for Income-tax (1) where the total Income does not exceed Rs. 48,000 Nl (2) where the total Income exceeds 20 percent of the amount by Rs. 48,000 but does not exceed which the total Income 56,000 exceeds Rs. 48,000; (3) where the total bicome exceeds Rs. 1,600 pAis 30 percent. Rs. 56,000 but does not exceeds of the amount by which the Rs. 76,000. income exceeds Rs.56,000 (4) where the total Indme exceeds Rs. 76,000 pAis 40 percent Rs. 76,000 but does not exceeds the amount by wiiich the Rs. 1,00,000 total Income exceeds Rs. 76,000; (5) where the total income exceeds. Rs. 17,200 pkjs SO percent, Rs. 1,00,000 amount by wirich the total Income exoMdtRs. 1,00,000 (33) 109 Finanoe(No.2) BHADRA23,1913(SAM) mi991 110 Pag e37,Hne31,- for "one member substitute - (34) 'half of the members' Paoe37 line 33.- for *Rs: 22,000* Suijsatute *Rs. 48,000* Page 37. for line 34 to 45, substitute (35) 'Rates of Income-tax (1) where the total income does not exceed Rs. 48,000 Nil; (2) where the total income exceeds 20 percent; of the amount Rs. 48,000 but does not exceed by whteh the total income Rs. 56,000 exceeds Rs. 48,000; (3) where the total income exceeds Rs. 1,600 plus 30 per cent Rs. 56,000 but does not exceed of the anwunt by which Rs. 76,000 the total income exceeds Rs. 56,000; (4) where the total income exceeds Rs. 7,600 plus 40 percent Rs. 76,000 but does not exceed of the amount by which Rs. 1,00,000 the total income exceeds Rs. 76,000; (5) where the total income exceeds Rs. 17,200 pA/s 50 per Rs. 1,00,000 cent of the amount by whichthe total income exceeds Rs. 1,00,000 (3 U 1 move these amendments and would Govemment should shed obduracy, like to appeal to the Govemment to stop being obdurate. The way prices have sky- SHRI GIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA rocketted and devaluatton of rupee has (Jaipur): 1 beg to move:- taken place it seems the injustice is being Page 37,- done to the hardworking masses and em- ptoyees in the fixed income group. The /or lines 11 to 20 subsfffufe- ftates of Income-tax (1) where the total income does not Nit; exceed Rs. 48,000. (2) where the total income exceeds 25% of the amount by Rs. 48,000 but does not exceed whk^ the total Income ex Rs. 1,00,000 ceeds Rs. 48,000; (3) where the total income exceeds Rs. 13,000 pAis40 percent Rs.1,00.000 of the amount by whk;h the total Income exceeds Rs.1.00.000 (40) I l l nnance(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 BBI. 1991 112 Pag e 38, -- for lines 8 to 15 substitute - Rates of income-tax (1) wtwre ttie total income'does not exceed Nil. Rs. 25,000 (2) where the total income exceeds Rs. 6 per cent of the amount by 25.000 but does not exceed Rs. which the total income ex 50.000 ceeds Rs. 25,000 (3) Where the total income exceeds Rs. 1,500 plus 12 per cent Rs. 50,000 but does not exceed of the amount by which the Rs. 1,00,000 total income exceeds Rs. 50.000 (4) where the total income exceeds Rs. 7,500 plus 18 per cent Rs. 1,00,000 of the amount by which the total income exceeds Rs. 1.00,000 (41) In very strong words, I demand these Amendment were put and negatlred. amendments be circulated. Besides, I am sure the hon. Finance Minister would cer MR. SPEAKER; The question is: tainly accept our proposal of Increasing the limit of income tax from the casting Rs. * That the First Schedule stand part of the 22000 to Rs. 48,000. Prices are increasing Bill." very fast and the masses are in a miserable The motion was adop/ted plight. Therefore, I would appeal to rouse The First Schedule was added to the BlIL the ceiling limit upto Rs. 48,000 and at any cost it should be raised to at least Rs. MR. SPEAKER; There are no amend 30,000. ments to the second Schedule and the Third SHRIDAU DAYAL JOSHI (Kota): I beg Schedule. The question is ‘That the second to move:- schedule and the third schedule stand part of the Bill.’ Page41, - after line 47 insert- The motion was adopted. “Provided further that where the total The second schedule and the thkd income exceeds Rs. 75,000 the sur schedule were adUM to the BUI. charge on the lncome4ax payable shall not exceed30%of the difference The fourth •chadule between the total Income on which inconw-tax is payable and the sum of SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA (Madhubani): Rs. 75,000.* (46) Sir, I beg to move; (Inarruptions) Page 53, lEngBshJ Omtflines16and17 (19) MR. SPEAKER; With yourconcun-ence, Amendments made; I am putting all these amendments to the First Schedule, namely amendment Nos. 6, Page 53, Line 46 13,33,34,35.36.40,41 and 46 to the vote fof-74.12" sotosf/ftrte *74.11* (47) of the House. No. 6.13.33.34.35.36.40, Page 54llne 8. - 41 and 46. /or*the activity of body building* 113 Rnanoe(No.2) BHAORA23,1913 (SAM) 1991 114 substitute *building a body* (48) The Motion was adopted (Shii Manmohan Singh) Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the long W e were added to the Bill. MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put amend ment No. 19 moved by Shri Bhogendra Jha SHRI MONMOHAN SINGH: Sir, I beg to the vote of the House. to move: Amendment No. 19 was put and That the Bill, as amended, be negatived. passed. “ MR. SPEAKER; The question Is: SHRI CHANDRAJEET YADAV (Azamagarh); IHave given noticetospeait. “That The fourth Scheduled, as amended, stand part of the Bill.* MR. SPEAKER: Motion moved: ‘That the Bill, as amended, be passed.’ The motion was adopted The Fourth Schedule, as amended, was [Translation] added to the Ba SHRI LALK. ADVANi (Gandhi Nagar): Mr. Speaker, Sir, with the passing of the MR. SPEAKER; The question is; Finance Billthe Budget procedure is com ing to an end today. I remember when the Thatthe fifth Schedule start part of the new Finance Minister presented the BUI.* Budget in July, this year, we were really disappointed with the Budget speech. Let The motion was adopted me at the outset today, say, that the reply to the debate on Finance Bill by the hon. The F m Schedule was added to the BUL Finance Minister is to be appreciated for the plain speai Ths atmosphers has been created in such to that. We cannot live in isolation. India had a manner that the people do not know as to played a major pad You yourself had done what is going to happen and there is totai a great service as Secretary-General of the uncertainty in our economic. I may teii you South Cooperatton. I think, you yourseH that is spite of all assurances given by the suggested many measures that the newly Government, to the foreign investors, the liberated countries, the countries belonging foreign Investors are still apprehensive. Tliey to Third Workf. shoukl also take collective are very apprehensive about this policy and decisions. They must act collecth/ely. We whether it will continue and will have any cannot be thrown just to the international icind of continuity and stability. The Prime capitalist economy. Minister, during his recent visit to Germany had to face this situation from the German In the present situation, we are not ob investors. The German investors were ask jecting that you do not take toan from the ing the Prime Minister invariably; ‘How do IMF. From time to time, one has to take the you give the guarantee that your policy will b}an. That is not that we are criticising your continue?* I wouki like to draw the attentton decision to take the toan. But we have to of the Govemmentto this kind of uncertainty remember the way it was created. The that is prevailing. impresston we have gh/en is that perhaps we are collapsing and. therefore, it became One reason is, another mistake whk:h inevitable for us. was committed was not from the top of the house tMJt from top of the country. The After making two or three pobits, I will Rnance Minister and several Ministers were conclude because I do not want to make a telling the whole work! that we have gone king speech. Tfie Finance Minister has bankrupt and they were giving the impres- pointed out that our productivity is going sk>n as if they are going with a begging-twwl down. I think, that in the coming months, to save our country. I think that has also certain concrete measures must be taken to created a wrong impression. improve our productivity. That is a national problem. THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF POWER AND NON CON India is weak in the management of tts VENTIONAL ENERGY SOURCES (SHRI economy. We are rich in our resources. But KALP NATH RAO: ShriV.P.Singhhadsakl ouroertain organisattons. forexample, STC, this. (Interruptnns) Remember Shri V.P. MMTC, needtobestreamSned. They do not Singh. (Interruptions) know now to work in the intemattonal mar SHRI CHANDRA JE ET YADAV: Even ket. Sometimes we do export at a throwa the Finance Minister, perhaps, with his hon way prices. Sometimes we miss a right kind est assessment, has sakl on the f toor of the of an opportunity. Sometimes we do not House, that we arefacing an unprecedented know howto advertise our own items. When crisis. This crisis is the biggest crisis in our I go to Europe or any other country.... independent India, tt was his assessment Why do you obiect It? (Interruptkins) We are MR. SPEAKER: Please do not elaborate all concerned because we deem it as a It now. nattonal problent We are not saying that it is a party problem. We are saying that it is a SHRI CHANDRA JEET YADAV: some national problemandacountry like India has time I feel B hurts the national prkie when I to face this problem. But, what I am saying, see that the Indian tea is being soM as Mr. Finance Minister, Is that 'Please do not Ceylonese tea. I think that tKe time has go on emphasising that we have become a come when effective measures should be part of the global economy; an integrated part of the world economy. Nobody ot^ects taken for austerity. We have not yet sue- 119 Fmance(No.2) SEPTEMBER 14,1991 m . 1991 120 suocMdad in creating an atmospliaFS of terjee, as a good parliamentarian, you austerity. shoukl know that you don't have to criti cise his speech. But you have to ten us Now I come to the last point, I think, to why the Bill shouM be passed or why it save the common consumer, the neces shouki not be passed. sary effective steps should be taken for effective functioning of public distributton SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJE: system so that further burden may not That is what I am saying (Intorruptbns) Had increase on the common consumers. With he been able to assure the House that these works, I conclude. against this threat of gaNoping inflatnn, he wouki Im engaged in proving a thorough MR. SPEAKER: Shri Nirmal Kanti public distributton system all over the Chatterjee. country, I wouM have been pleased. He has failed to promise that. {Intorrufahns) Secondly, when Mr. Fernandes talked, MR. SPEAKER: You made a good he was joked. He is present here. He had speech. a powerful oratnn and was deputing the condition of Bihar and was heard by the {interruf^hns) Finance Minister. As he wanted to con centrate on other points he did not men- MR. SPEAKER: You want to improve tk>n about the policy of freight equalisatnn. upon iti Regtons of West Bengal, Orissa, parts of Madhya Pradesh and Bihar, the most (interwptions) poverty-stricken area, have been deprived of the facilities which nature has given to SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE them. There is not a word as to what we (Dumdum): Sir, what do you want me to can do in that regard. The bounties which say? You threatened me that as soon as I nature has given to them has been denied rise to speak, you will call for quorum. You by the leaders of the Government. They were absent when I spoke. So. I woukt shouki undo this and altow the bounties to continue my speech. those States., Not a ward has been men- ttoned by him about dismantling of freight Sir. I am really sad after listening to equalisatton. Sir, that creates diffkHilty for our Finance Minister. He has noted that use to support the Finance Bill. prices have risen. He has even conceded that prices have risen this year at a higher Sir, I woukl have been happy If the rate than last year. He shoukl have added people oouM be toki that price rise wouM that it is not only a higher rate but this is be contained in some manner. in additbn to what has happened last year. This is taking a heavy toil in the level of He has not only hurt this kind of people living of our people. Unfortunately, the only but also, even among the top groups, the answer he has provMed to that is that we smaller borrowers. He has levied Interest are left to the seasons and to God. tax. Yesterday also, I pleaded on this point. Banks have been asked to collect interests MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Nirmal Kanti Chat- tax via raising their interest rates. I men 121 Finance (No.2) BHADRA23.1913(S>UC4) BHU991 122 tioned that the interest rate market rule is hence or a few months hence. Sir. at least for those who are credit worthy and they some people say that the workJ is divkJed can get the credit at a lower rate of inter into South and North. There are two worids est. at least. So bng we are tob, there were two Super Powers in the North World and MR. SPEAKER: Is it necessary to re that is not the pkrture any bnger. If there peat it? has to be an integratbn against the North WorkJ, then it is the cooperatton among SH Rl NIRMAL KANTICHATTERJEE: the South integratbn, among the econom- No Sir. I am Just asking. I told him in the bs of the South whbh has to be fostered. nigh. And I am still hoping to get a posi Forgetting that, if you try to integrate into tive reply. He might have forgotten in the the world economy, then that is the road to darkness of the night the IMF, road of bondage to the Worki BanK road of bondage to workl’s number Interruptions) one Super Power, that is. the United States* imperialism. Since there is no reference to MR. SPEAKER: But I was here to hear this kind of a situation in the Finance you. Minister’s speech, which must go wearily to every citizen of our country, once again {Inten'uptbns) they have to tighten their belts and move to fight as they had fought before 1947 to SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE: gain their independence. Sir, the threat is I remembered that I had to give company homing large bearer us. I do not know to you. what is going to happen to our country, with these economic policies of last so I want an assurance that the interest many years forcing us into a rate structure will not be albwed to func- sjXuaX\on,..(lntenvptions) You have not tbn against the small borrowers. He shouki fought for the freedom of our country. You assure at least this much to the House that are not freedom fighters. You do not know the higher rate of interest that has been what colonialism is. You do not know what charged will be only against the large bor the boots of the Whites are. Some of you rowers and not against the IRDP borrow have no experience of things before 1974. ers of the country. If you have a conscience. I appeal to that conscience. I was there in 1943 in Cal MR. SPEAKER: Nirmal Kantiji. appeal cutta and I saw our women being assaulted ing yesterday, today and in the Zero Hour by foreign soldiers. Therefore, I warn that is not socialistk: chauvinism. on this questbn we must be on guard and the entire polrcy of liberalisation, of open (Interruptions) ing the womb to the imperialists and to the WorkI Bank prescriptbns must be resisted. SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE: If that promise is not forthcoming, then we Sir, I would like to mentk>n only one point. have to dissociate and we have to walk I am thankful that he has conceded about out against the Finance Bill. consignment tax. The most dangerous part of his statement is about our economy. AN HON. MEMBER: No. no. NO walk That is a worry whk:h will haunt him a year out please. 123 Finance (No.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 1991 124 SHRINIRMALKANTICHATTERJEE: Now, I am talking about the produc Okay. Then tf they want to tie voted out, we tivity. can do that too. [Translation] [Translatton] The productivity of the farmer has to SHRI NATHU RAM MIRDHA be increased. We talk about productivity of (Nagaur): Sir, I rise to support the nation industry in our country. They always play moved by the hon. Finance Minister. We safe. There is no competition. Other coun hear in the House and outside also that the tries have made a lot of money. I am talking hon. Finance Minister is not a politician and of introducing competition in Indian Industry. so does not know much at>out politics. I have The protective system should be done away tieen a member of this House for a long time. with. The industrial and agricultural polksies I have spoken many times tHJt today is the must be given some direction. You have firsttime, lamspeaking about it...l knowthat highlighted a number of shortcomings but your number has increased from 86 to 117... these have existed for a long time. Due to the sesame crop we had to import 18 lakh SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): tonnes of edible oil. Yes, I am talking at>out You have worked very hard ...{Interrup oil-seeds. We have been importing large tions).... quantities of pulses and we are still doing the same. We should not have any objection to SHRI NATHU RAM MIRDHA: Please high prices of pulses because the cost of listen to me. i have heard many people say living in India is among the lowest in the that the hon. Finance Minister is not a worid. (Interruptions).... Prces are not con politteian and the Budget presented by him trolled by us, they are affected by the growth is not a good one. We ail know that he is an of population. Nobody can check price-rise. economist of international repute. Given the If you can do so, we will hand over power to time at his disposal I think he has prase nted you. The increase in production is not pro a very good budget. (Interruptions).... It will portionate to the increase in population and take us a very tong time to acquire the this is bound to increase the prices. It is not knowledge that he has. I think he has made easy to check rising prices. Do not indulge in a sincere effort to make a Budget that will unnecessary talk. Prices cannot be brought resolve theeconomk:crisis. Even Shri Advani down overnight. Productivity has to be in (eels that the hon. Finance Minister has creased, growth in population has to be done the right thing. He was not satisfied checked and unemployment has to be re with the previous Budget. He is satisfied with moved. Only then will prices come down to this one and this assumes more importance some extent. All these things are linked since he is the CSpposition leader. Nobody together. You have knowledge of econom- else couM have presented a Budget as good »s. I have written the report of the Agrk:ul- as this one. This is a voice from my ture Committee and the hon. Agriculture \nBeat...{lntenvptlons).... I have advocated Minister, who is himself an agriculturist and the cause of farmers throughout my life. he nay see the Report. Presently, a L. P. Q. {Interruptions)_In my constituency, the cylinder costs Rs. 140/-where as it is soMfor people vote as I tell them. I am one of the Rs. 70/-. How long will the Government aged Members of this House. Please listen provMe subsMy? There is a tot of expense' to me. Shri Manmohan Singh is still young. on petrol...{lnterruptions)....l know you and; Our country is passing through a crisis. In Ambani very well. One Ambani will not solve, our countiy the agricultural productivity is the problem. The economy of each Indi- about 2 tonnes per hectare while in other vMual in the country has to be strengthened countries it is 7 tonnes per hectare. and only then can the country’s economy be [English} strengthened. 125 Finance (No.2) BHAORA 23,1913 {SAKA) Bill, 1991 126 AN. HON. MEMBER: We were not as I was on the day the Finance Minister aware of this. presented the Budget. The description of the problems is correct but the proposed SHRI NATHU RAM MIRDHA: Of solutions are not acceptable to us. I do not course you know everything but you delitier- agree with the concept that linking the Indian atety pose to be ignorant. Sir, I would lii ^ h . George Fernandes] Invite American Investnwnt, though ulti mately he did not succeed In getting it done. But the policy the hon. Minister of Finance oonecUve measures are taken against the propose to Implement seeds to be very Miptomentatlon of this bill. dangerous. I am more disappointed be cause such a great politician lite Sh t1 AdvanI Mr. Speaker. Sir. the ultimate goal of also praised it. Worid it be possible even for Swara) movement was to Instill nationalistic such capitalists as Tata and Birla whom we feelingslnpeople and attain self-suffk:iency. accuse of imbalancing the Indian economy Gandhi Ji started that nravement and many to compete with Rock Failure and Ford? of the present hon. Members of the House dkl not parttolpate In that movement. At that Therefore, it is a sign of dangerforour time they may be too ok) to parttelpate In the economy and also for capitalist system. The movement. It might be possible that the industrialists who fail to understand the students In schools were not taught the lofty motive of this Bill will haveto repent andface Meals of our Swaraj movement in the coun the consequences afterwards. try and political leaders also do not brother to understand It. However, It Is a fact that if Mr. Speaker, Sir. I do agree that pro we do not have nattonallstk; feelings and fail duction shouk) be increased. Shri AdvanI to achieve self-suffteiency we would be in statedthatthe industrialists availed conces great diffteult. I know that the Government sion. Dkl they avail them to increase the will be able to get the bill passed in the production, the purpose for which the con House, but we cannot associate ourselves cessions were provided pubik: money has with this bill and the polkdes adopted by the been misused In hotels, smuggling and other Government. After presentation of this unproductive works. Had it been invested to Budget, there has been steep rise in the Increase the productton it woukl have been prices partteularly In regard to the fertilisers, a work of patriotism and there wouM have and though it has t>een stated by the hon. been a definite increase in the production. At Minister as a regional Issue. It has further present, the country Is in a very had shape. detertorated the financial condition of farm Shri George Fernandes has rightly stressed ers. upon the need to Increase the production in the country. Yesterday, I wanted to know Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the present what relief was proposed to be provkJed to situation, I fear, the polksy adopted by the about 170 crore people; what relief was Government and the Budget would lead the proposed to be provkted to small scale and country towards destruction. The hon. Min cottage Industries so as to make proper ister has not suggested the solution to these utllisatton of man power. But I am disap three Issues the way he shouk) have. There pointed to see that very little attention has fore. I oppose the Finance Bill, there is no been pakl on these aspects In the Bill. question to support It There are number of banks In our SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA country. The hon. Minister of Finance has (Madhuban/): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have been been the head of these banks. When nation- deeply disappointed to hear the reply of the allsatton policy was implementedthere were hon. Finance Minister. Mr. Speaker. Sir, 14 banks. At present various branches of when Mir Jaffer allowed East India Com banks are working in eveiy area, in every pany to carry business In India, he did not block and the Govemment have to t>ear visualise the politteal ramlftoattons of ft. He heavy expenditure for these banks which is thought that it was just a trading company. of no use. Woukl it not be in the intent of the A senior Minister in the Indian Cabinet. I country that all the banks should be unified. wouM not mentton his name, had stated In The Emptoyees Associations through out America that the Govemment of India wouk) the country have demanded to unify them. 129 Finance (No.2) BHADRA 23.1913 (SAKA) Bill. 1991 130 There i s no needto spent so much on banks SHRIMANMOHANSINGH: lam very though it was repaired in 1969. grateful to all the hon. Members who have spoken at this late stage and I must express my gratitude to the hon. Leader of the Similarly, I would la^e to discuss the O^osition and otherfriends who have sakJ matter of Income tax. I do agree that the kkl words for me. After this k>ng debate I Government should charge income tax ac think that it is a reward I greatly value and I cording to the policy. But the Govemment am very grateful to them. should fix the rate only once so that there is no need to increase it again and again. On one hand prices are rising high and on the Thera is one thing that I do want to other hand Govemnr»nt has been imposing say. Our country is indeed in grave difficul heavy income tax. The hon. Minister of ties and at a time IHte this what we shouM Rnance should take measures inthis regard stress to the worid and the message shouM also. go out. Is that we may have poiittoal differ ences, but when it comes to the question of You had also given a statement on 3rd saving India’s honour, when it comes to the of the month in the House. We met the hon. questtonof getting this country moving again, Minster of Finance when Communist MLSs I think all sections of this august Hole start and MPs from Bihar stayed dhama; and united. And I think if we stand thus united, discussed all the mattress with him. I would allthis uncertainty about ourpolteiesthat the not go into the details of the reply he gave. hon. Shri Chandra Jeet Yadav was talking But now the hon. Minister should give reply atwut, that will melt. There are, no doubt, in regard to freight equalisation as refened people outskle India and India has mangy to by shri Chandrajeet just now and which detractors abroad. And after ail, if 850 mil hasbeencausing heavy toss tosome states. lion people thus wake up, I think there would Beskles, I would suggest to fix the royalty of be many people who wouki be worried about coal on the basis of the price and not on it abroad, they want India to remain in this weight. It is in the interest of all the mineral loan equilit>rium trap. And I think we must producing states. have a vision, that we must find ways and means to get out of this trap. Where there Is proviston, IthinkpeoplewiH agree. And If this Intheend, IwoukJIiketo talk ^ u t the country has this viston, then there is nothing fertilisers. We are glad and we conskier it to that the people of this country cannot do, be matter of our victory that exemption has there is nothing wrong with the people of been given to small and marginal farmers.. India, there is nothing wrong with the wortc- But if the scheme of giving grants to all the ers of India. farmers Is continuect, it would be beneficial to increase the production. Instead of keep ing It postponed, the Govemment should Yesterday, Shri Fernandes mentioned provide immediate concessions to agrtcuh about the workers the peasants of Bihar. I lure. had been to several parts of Bihar. I agree with him. There is nothing wrong with the peasantry of Bihar. They are hardworking [EngBsh] peasants as of Punjab. What is wrong is the system - the lnstitutk>nal system as well as MR. SPEAKER: Is the Minister Inter the administrative system. If, Shri Fernandes ested In replying?' for example. wouM set the Bihar State Eleo- 131 Finance (No.2) SEPTEMBER 14.1991 Bill, 1991 132 [Sh. Manmohan Singh] those luxury things. The basic needs of the people of India must have a prime place on trictty Board right I assure them that we will the resources. get lot of money for investment in the power sector in Bihar. I would lime to rentind Stiri Femandes. He has quoted yesterday the Report of South Commission. What I have done inthis I respect Shri Advance’s sentiments Budget or what I am saying today is not in about the effect of inflation, how Inflation negatton of anything, which was written in hurts everybody. I recognise that it hurts that Report, if you read It, I think, it is clearly particularly the fixed incomegroiip squarely. stated that third would cannot be isolated But, I thinit, as Mirdhaii has pointed out, all and the third worid has to be integrated into these have to be dewed In the totality of the worid economy. The issue is not whether drcumstanoes. What sort of a message we you want to be integrated or not, but the want togivetothls country? Has this country tsnris on which it will have to be integrated. overnight become so rich In itsfiscal system That is what the North South diatogue says. as to give out and hand out? I do not want to create that psychology. Our country is in very serious difficulties. It is the responsbii- After ail the third wouW is three fourth 'Ity of each and every citizen of this country of the humanity and that we never three to share the bum. It Is only then that you will relent on our commitment to wori( together create an atmosphere of austerity. with the other countries of the third would, to put forth before the worid community the Sir, I fully share the sentiments that case of the South. But before we can plead hiwe been expressed by ail sides of the the other case, we must have an economy House, then I tak about integration into the whteh is viat>le. And therefore the prime world economy, I am not taking of aping the importance of getting this country moving lifestyles of the consumption pattern of the again, the prime importance of setting our affluent West. We cannot afford to do so. fiscal system in order, the prime impotrtant even If we could afford to do so, then that of seeing that our public enterprises run would be a negation of what ourculture and efficiently, the t>anking system is as efficient our dvIHsatlon has today. as elsewhere and that our economy and our society is imbued with a sense of kfealism, with a spirit of enterprise and creativfty I do talk of integration into the world whteh ourpeople demand, whteh ourpeople economy. We should be able to look every need. And this only can see us through this one at the face. We want to be out of this crisis. begging game. We want to compete with the test of the worid on an equal footing. Our scientists, our technotoglsts, I think, are I have touchhed upon some of these capable of that; ourentrepmerirs are capa points eariier points eariier also. I want to ble of that. We must shed the inferiority assure the House with regard to matters complex that we are a poor country and that relating to tax reforms, whether it Is the we cannot compete with the rest of the exemptton limit or whether there are other' worid. This Is what has destroyed the self- issues Hke customs reforms, excise reforms, confidenoe of this natton. I think, we must I do agree with the hon. fttombers that the get out of that mentality. But this does not tax system in India is far too complex. Thera mean that I want to ghw Mcdowell or aH is tot of harassment of honest citizens. We 133 Finance (No.2) BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) BW. 1991 134 must move towards a simpler system which of this det>ate, we have tried to highlight the must be more transparent also. Any matters needtogive relieftothefixedincomegroups, relating to tax moderation in some sense is even though slightly, only to community a better than expropriator taxation's which me^ssage. I wouki only say that while in the can never be made effective. Therefore, in earlier cases I found the Government some what responsive. Heel disappointed that on the months to come, we will or on those this last issue it has not been responsive, things. Among other things, we will consider though the Finance Mlnteter has heki out a also this tesue of exemptions, concessions promise of rationalising the whole taxation orotherthingsthat wecan do. This I commit. structure, including this partfeular aspect I have already appointed a Tax Reforms Therefore, as I sakl at the outset, only in Committee to look into all these aspects of order to show our disappointment and disil the matter. Inthe same way, I amcommitted lusionment with the Government on this to do everything in my power to see that score, we woukl I9 ISh. Somnath Chatteijee] South); the aga has been increased. one word has been spoken. What will hap SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: pen to the sick Industries in this country? Not there is not one word about the freight word atwut it has t>een spoken. What will equalisation whteh Is a very Vital Issue. You happen to the efforts to remove the regional are talking of liberailsatkHi and you are imbalance in this country which has admit taking of market economy. Then how do ted? Not one word has been spoken. you support the freight equlisaUon? Please tell me. On which principle you will support? What is your poltey? What Is the prindpie I found that my hon. friends on the behind it? Are you not giving the subskiy to treasury benches,- on the Congress skle, some areas of the country? When you are were very strongly and enthustastically taking away the benefit of geographteal thumping theirdesks when the hon. Finance tocatton, where is the q>en competitton? IMinister was criticising the functtoning of You are not able to do that their previous govemments.[lnterruptions] They had supported the policies and the Mr. Rnance Minister, you are a recent Budgets which are repudiated by the Fi recmit. You have been recently rerouted to nance Ministertoday.[lnteniiptions] You had the Congress party. You cannot get out of supported the Buc^ts. during Mrs. Indira their Intemal problems which are there. GandhP’s time and during Shri Rajiv Gan- Unfortunately you have got yourself Into it dhrs time and now you ars also thumoping the desk when those Budgets are being There is no word atwut reduction of repudiated today. This is the consistency of prices or about solving the unemptoyment yourpolicy. I am. therefore, not enamored of or about freight equaHsatton. There is no four polk:y. word about removing the economic dIvMe amongst the people of this country. This Today we ars hearing some newthings Budget Is meant for a handful of people; the whteh are coming up. I do not know whether benefactors of the ruling party in this country Shri Nathuram Mirdha had supported the and of the IRces of Shri Murii Deora. He may poikdes then also. [InterrupttonsJToday he represent Nariman Point; but he does not has found a new hope and something new. represent 850 mllton people of this country. When I sakl that what was the objective, he SHRI MURLI OEORA: There are poor thought that I was freefenlng to gem per people also In Nariman Point [Interruptions] sonally. I did not refer to him personally. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: I. therefore, say that it is not a pro- therefore. Sir, we are sorry that we cannot people Budget. This is an anti-people Budget be a party to the bartering away of our This IsaseH-out Budget India's sovereignty econontic Independence. We do not agree is being bartered away and is being sokJ with the Finance Minister. We. therefore, do today. We have high personal respect for not associate with this Bm. the good Finance Minister. He knows it very well. [Interrupttons] I am not going to learn 1&39 hrs. from the new recruits to Youth Congress. At this stage, Sliri Somnath Chatteijaa SHRI INOERJIT(Oatjeellng): Stop and some oUmhon. Humber let! the using oM and our-dated .cUch_. Come out Htxise. with something new. P'panslattonJ S m i SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Let SHRI GEORGE FERNADES (Muzaffarpur): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Gov SHRI MURLI DEORA(Bombay ernment of the day has turned a blind eye to 137 htothn re. coOapse BHADRA 23.1913 {SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 138 the values of freedom movement. H has t)id for about 15 minutes now and we can meet farewell to the values enunciated by Gandhi again at 4 o’ctock. Jl and has given up the principles of self- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House reliance and self-sufficiency. As a protest I stands adjoumedto meet again at 4 o’clock. and my colleagues boycott the proceedings of the House for the day. 15.42 hra. 15.40 hr*. The Lok Sabha then adfoumed tU SOeenoftheCtock. At this s te ^ shrl George Ferttartdes and some other hon. Metrbers left the House. The Lok Sabha te-ssseivbled at four HEngttsh] minutes past Sixteen of the Clock. MR. SPEAKER: the question is: [SHRI SHARAD DIGHE intheChak] thatthe Bill, as amended, be passed.’ MOTION RE: COLLAPSE OF THE BANK OF CREDIT AND COMMERCE Motion was adopted. INTERNATIONAL (OVERSEAS) LTD. (BCCI)— CONTD. MR. SPEAKER: the Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1991, as amended. Is passed. [English] MR. CHAIRMAN :Shri Jaswant Singh. 15.401/2 hrs SHRIJASWANTSINGH(Chitlorgarh): MOTION RE. COLLAPSE OF THE BANK Mr. Chairman, sir, we resume the Discus- OF CREDIT AND COMMERCE sk>n on the intenupted Motton on BCCL On INTERNATIONAL (OVERSEAS) Friday last, we adjourned the discusston on LIMITED-COWro. a somewhat contenttous note, Hon. the Rnance Minister has shared some facts JEngUsh] about the establishment of BCCI with us and the facts indeed are sacrosanct. I entirely MR. SPEAKER: Now, we take up item agree with the hon. Rnance Minister. No.9. Shrl Jaswant Singh was on his legs. He may continue his speech now. But facts are not. however, open to conveniently selective inteipretatton of them. 15.41 hr*. I will be verting back to this veiy shortly. We have also then witnessed a somewhat per [MR. DEPLTTYSPEAKERIn the Chair] plexing spectacle. The Treasury Benches and the Congress Party had gone into par SHRIJASWANTSINGH(Chmotgaih): oxysm of simulated horror at the establish Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Rnance ing of a representative’s office of BCCI In Minister has really gone through a very India In 1979. Of course, personally I wel trying ordeal since moming and he looks come this demonstratton even If It was fake very tired. So. It wouM be betterthat we may because we are confronted by a very curi break for about 10 or 15 minutes now, so ous reality, fn the face of worid wMe expo that he can refresh himself and we also can sure of the misdeeds of BCGI and indeed an have a cup of coffee. universal condemnatton of these misdeeds. The present Government of India and the SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE Congress Party appear to be the only two (Bolpur): Sir, R wouM be kieal If we adjourn agencies in India, or elsewhere who are 139 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 140 [Sh. Jaswant Singh] then Qovemment and it was not just for a representative’s off toe but it was, in fact, for actually standing up for all kinds of estab a full-fledged Bank. But that really t>egs a lished illegalities and criminal acts of the questton because the sanction f orthe open BCCI. I was then on the aspect of our ing of a full-fledged bank was granted in doniestic concern so far as the BCCI goes. 1979 and from 1979 till March 1983, that sanction did not get implemented. Then Sir, let me very briefly attempt to what happened between 1979-80to change recapitulate our concerns in the context of the Government’s mind on this matter? In India. I had in my intervention on Friday last 1979, sanction was granted for the opening spoken of these established nexus between of a bank. And it did not get acted upon the BCCI and Pakistan’s ISI, the I Center- because either the Government lost power Servkies Intelligence and the report of the or was removed from office or tost offk». But ‘black network' of BCCI as being insepara between 1979-83,1 do not know what posi ble from ISI. We had spoken about the use tive developments took place for the Gov of BCCI for laundering of drug-money. That ernment, in 1983, if my recollection serves Is also our concern. Thirdly, we had spoken me right, it was the Congress Government of the employment of BCCI for weapons and if my recollection serves me right, the trade. Indeed the Bank was acting as an hon. the finance Minister then, In his earlier agent for acquisition of weapons for certain incarnations, hekJ different responsibility. countries. I cited the example of acquisitton That really begs the question. What is itthat of Mirage aircraft. We are also concemed took place in these four years to warant this here about the fact that vartous terrorist change, for what is now clear enough to was organisations have been exploying the BCCI an act of Ill-thought and ill-advised sanction as their banker. It now stands established ing? that certainly Abu Nidal used the BCCI, London for this purpose. It is open to ques I put It to you that in industrialists' tion whether Abu NkJai orthe JKLF or some group, akled and encouraged the entry of other Sikh tenvrist groups or the LTTE did this bank in India In March 1983. This was not enjoy similar facilities. Our concern is despite the dissent from the then Governor also on the aspect of BCCI acting as a kmd of the Reserve Bank of India. It was con of intelligence gathering organisation for nected with certain proposed changes in Pakistan with its headquarters in Karachi. It law, I remember very clearly that the then Is a very important aspect. Finance Minister Indeed went to the extent of introducing in Parliament the laws which Then, the questton of nuclear angle of required the consent of the Receive Bank to BCCI comes, tt is now established that the be lifted away fromthe Reserve Bank and to BCCI has provided not just finances but it become the authority of the Finance Minis was acting as virtual attomey-holders and try. If I recollect right, without wanting to agents for Pakistan and also for Libya and cause any emban’assment the then Gover Iran in the procurement of nuclear technol nor of Reserve Bank took a very strong ogy, nuclear wherewithal’s, nuclear equip stand onthis issue. Why did he take astrong ment. Our concern In India so far as BCCI is stand? What was the difficulty of the then concemed is about subversion of systems Governor of the Reserve Bank In not want and instituttons and, most importantly about ing to deny entry of this bank into India. the nexus between the politicians, industri- altsts, the bank and convption. It is interest It is now an established fact, not Just ing to note that this whole question of entry presumption that one of the Industrial houses into India of BCCI became contentious last came under bear hammering on the stock FrkJay. it is a fact that a representative’s exchange and some Rs. 22 crores came on office dkl get opened In 1979. The hon. to the Bombay Stock Exchange by way of Finance Minister has corrected me and sak) foreign monie. These Rs. 22 crores required that the sanction then was granted by the certain approvals of the then laws In force. 141 Motion m. collapse BHAORA 23.1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 142 These Rs.22 crores came without those of 1989 contains the proviston that this gain approvals. It is an established fact and It of 24 million US dollars, black being con very seldom happens that a law, In respect verted into white, be exempted from top. of foreign money coming into India to facili This fraduient gain, a fraud played on oiir tate the flow of this Rs.22 crores was in fact, banking system, on the establishments, on changed by a telex message on the 20th of our institutions, was then, by a subsequent August, 1982. An evening telex message enactment, by this very Congress Govern went to various agencies in the countiy and ment in 1989, permitted to become tax the law got changed on the 20th August, exempt. I have given these examples, so as 1982.1 will be happy if the Finance Minister to establish, firstly, the aspect of the dubious refutes me on this point. And on 21st of entry of BCCI into India and secondly, the August, the very next day, three non-resi aspkt of Its nexus with our public financial dent Indian complies filed their application Institutions. That is why, it is a matter of such for legitimising the Rs. 22 Crores that had great concem to us. flown into the stock exchange. I put it to you that was the beginning of a certain king of a Let us take up the aspect of public not that set into our system. financial instituttons. The hon. Finance Min ister, concluding the discussions on the Ant about my source, I come to my Finance Bill, spoke most eloquently and source injust a little while. I put it that all that movingly. He spoke of idealism; he spoke of came by way of this Rs. 22 crores was an Mealism in public life; he spoke of the re- unaccounted secret black nwney as subse fonns of banking systems, so that our banks quently established by investigations of the and our public financial institutions are on Government of India itself. This very Rs.22 par, so far as integrity and conduct goes, crores in about seven years time, and the with anything that the world can show. I shares connected with this Re. 22 crores, share his idealism In its entirety. But, I put It were then untoaded on yet another com to the Finance Minister that if it is that kind pany in India for a sum of Rs. 76 crores. Rs. of klealism; if it is that kind of integrity - 22 crores at the then prevailing rates of transparent; if It is that kind of put>lto Institu exchange amounted to something like 20 tions, whose reputation, whose standing million US dollars. Those 20 million US and whose prestige is unquestioned any dollars of black money, in June 1989, be where in the world. If this is the kind institu came Rs. 76 crores or at the then prevailing tions that we are thinking in terms of, then all rate of exchange roughly 44 millton US that I have cited, without going into unnec dollars. The Government of India, through essary details, the bare skeletal outline of it various changes in laws and conniving with Is not in hanmony with the hon. Finance the corrupt, an^ged for the conversion of Minister’s own pronouncements on what he 20 millton US dollars to come into the coun says or aspires or desires to do. What the try, for them to then be converted to 44 one public financial instituttons that we talk million US dollars, forblackto beconw white, of ? They are the nationalised banks and the and for those 44 millton US dollars to go others are public financial instituttons like back. There was a profit of 24 million US the Unit Trust, or the life Insurance Corpo dollars. What came In as 20 millton, went out ration or the GIC. And Indeed, Sir, It Is as 44 millton US dollars and It went back to relevant to point out that firstly. Insurance the BCCI. I will come with my evidence on companies got nattonalised because, there that in a minute. Was all this under RBI,s was the infamous example of Mundra, play approval-tacit or Impiteit? I wouM request ing with Insurance conrpany's money. It Is the Rnance Ministertoclarifythis. Because, because of that, that Life Insurance got the subsequent action taken by the Govern nattonalised in the country. And it was be ment Is even more astounding. cause, the publto money through public, financial instituttonsgot misemploeyed. That The Taxatton Laws Amendment Act was the original motive for the natlonaNsa- 143 Mothn re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 144 (Sh. Jaswant Singh] and dangerous combination of poiitk:at and financial power. The consequences for our tion of institutions like LiC. What nwtlvated polity andforourState are in front of all of us. the nationalisation of l>anks In the iate 60s for me not to have to recount or to kJentIfy the rationale of it, was simple public control that whk:h is now self-evkJent. We would not over public bodies for pubik: good. I would see what is happening all over the country. Hke the hon. Finance Minister to share this If we had stemmed the rot. if we had stood with us. This is just one examples that I have up and sakJ thus far and no further*, if we cited and I have got many more such exam had stood up for public accountability, and if ples. Is this good pubIk: conduct? It this that we first discerned the very eariy signs of put>lic control over pubIk: financial institu corrosions of our system. tions for pubik: good, uphekJ by this kind of misuse of pubik: financial Institutions? We I am Sony to have to say that public have to reflect very deeply over the aspect financial institutions today because they of the money power that the public financial answer to the passing whims and fancies of institutions today have and can employ for politk:al patronage are totally absent of ac the subversion of system. It Is enormous countability and the political system, now wealth that the public financial institutions sit speciallises In a deliberate, will ful defiant on. If the kind of arbitrariness or one- absence of accountability. If that is what the skledness or perversion fromon-top that we politk^l system does, then the pubik: finan have witnessed in the decade of the 80’s cial institutions will act In exactly the same were to persist, then these very pubitofinan- way. If that is how the public financial Insti cial Institutions sitting on enormous wealth, tutions react, then it does not portend well enormous nx>neys as pubik: contribution for the nation using these Institutions and and enormous investments in industrial that is what we have come to. These institu houses of all hues, coukl play a very damag tions are now used for indivMuals rather ing role in the total economy of the country. than public good. Repeated misuse of them, A truant public financial institution could particuiariy in the decade of the 80's, has break the stock exchange. A truant public perverted themand at every single instance, financial Institution coukl today play ducks ]ustk» is thwarted, accountability is pre and drakes with investments that have taken vented. That Is why, in the second, part of place in various industrial houses. That is my motion, I have sought for the establish what lies at the heart of our suggestion, that ment of propergukjeiines for publicf inancial unless there be proper guklellnes for the instituttons. conduct of these pubik: financial institutions, guMelines which are punishable, if they are There are possible future conse not abMed by - 1 have sakl at the beginning quences If we persist with this. One conse on Friday last, with great pain pointed out quence, which I have referredtoeariier, was that where’s for those kind of misconduct the thwarting of justice and the appropria any where in the worid, there is somebody tion of the State for IndivMual good. I have orthe other who is heklto account and pays here with me a copy of the report of the the price, it is only in India that no matter Enforcement Directorate. If you permit me, what happens, no matter what kink of scan I will place it on the Table of the House. Am dal we try and t>ring to your notice, whether I to Interpret your silence as consent? it be Bofois or anything else, nobody pays a price. Unless the price begins to be paM, Mr. P’ransiatton] Finance Minister, Sir, the Meallsm that you so etoquently speak of. will not be achieved ‘Moaunam Sweekaiti Lokshnam." because what happens in the case of public JEngBshJ financial instituttons is that they are acting with this kind of arbitrariness Is whk:h result MR. CHAIRMAN: You do tt as perthe in the corroston of the very element of our rules. nattonal course. It is the most ot^tonable 145 Motion re. cottapse BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 146 SHRIJASWANT SINGH; Well. I am factual. There Is no political overtone. It Is a doing It as par the rules. I will not labour the facial information which I want for my own patience of the House by quoting exten consumption. sively from It. Yet, I will just refer to the misuse that It has lent itself today. Here is SHRI JASWANT SINGH; I will give the small quotation. the year of the Report. Sir, he is really bragging the question that when was the These transactions valued at approxi Report prepared. If It was prepared. In a mately Rs. 22 crores, all the investments certain year, then it is not acceptable. This initially cameto India throughthe BCCI Bank applies both ways. I put it to my god friend In London. Bankers In India were at a toss to that it applies both ways. Whether this Re explain who had filed the OAC and RPC port was prepared in 1986 or 1987 or 1990 forms on behalf of the NRfet" or1991 is immaterial as long as It is a Report prepared by the Directorate of Enforcement Sir, it is further said that one Shri of India. And both, you and I, shouU accept Padlyar, Advisor to the BCCI, London was the valkfity of such a Repott.llnterruptk)ns) tooking after the entire affairs of these in vestments. During the Investigation abroad, SHRIANBARASUERA(Madras Cen we had again to meet Mr. Peter Henwood tral); There can be a political motive if it was who administers the Isle of Man companies. prepared by other Govemments than our Govemment....) /nte/rupf/ons)... It was pre SHRI DIGVUAYA S!NGH(Rajgarh): pared by the Janata Dal Govemment. (In What Is the year of this Report? terruptions) SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I have not SHRI JASWANT SINGH: that Is pre gotthedateofthe Report here. I will just give cisely the point. Whether it was prepared you as soon as I have completed. during late Rajiv Gandhi’s Govemment orby the Janata Party Govemment or by the SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: I just want Janata Dal Govemment, when am institu to know the year of that Report. tion of India IDte that of the Enforcement Directorate submits a Report, then the Re SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I am on a port itself should carry so much weight that different point all together. I think you are the Govemment should sit up and take note sharing my point of it. SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: I want the Secondly, whether then or subse year In whteh the Report of the Directorate quently, our institution shouU not be tom of Enforcement was prepared orpresented. apart by us sitting here and sing them for partisan purposes. That Is why, I am most SHRI JASWANT SINGH; I am antici careful and that is why, I am saying that I will pating your observations. This really under lay it on the Table of the House. I am most lines point, irrespective of the year in which careful to Illustrate the point out of this It was prepared or by whom it was prepared. Report. We haddestroyedthese institutions It Is said that it Is prepared by the Directorate to a measure whteh is unimaginable and we of Enforcement. But our systems and Insti had destroyed them only on account of the tutions should be such that this questton nexus between the corrupt politicians, cor shoutel even not arise. But I am very sorry rupt industrialists and corrupt bankers. And that my good friend, shri Dig Vijaya Singh Is that Is at the heart of this Motton that I have asking this question with political moved. Sir. At the heart of this Motion is not overtone.(lntenvptions) one indivMual or another, and at the heart of this Motion Is not one Govemntent or an SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: It Is totally other. I am concerned wtth the very same 147 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 148 [Sh. Ja swant Singh] antecedents of the investors. They totally rslkle upon the verifksation done by the idealism with which the hon. Finance Minis BCCI, London. When Shrl Padiyarwas asked ter spolte so movingly and so eloquently, whether he had done any verification, he when he spoke about the baniting instKu- stated categorically that he had not done so lions of this country aspiring a certain posi and he had relied on the Indian Banks. Here tion In the rest of the world. again Shrl Padiyarwas entirely conrect when he had stated that his clients had directly Here is what the report says: sent the forms to the Banks and the question of verifk:atlon of antecedents of investors ‘During our investigations, we have dkl not arise as far as BCCI London was an occasion to meet peter Henwood, admin concemed. Mr. Padlyar stated that what istering some Isle of Man companies, and ever instructions he had revived from his Shrl Padlyar, Adviser, BCCI, London who clients were passed on to the bankere In looks after the financial aspects of all the India with a clear-cut u nderstanding that the transactions abroad and some sharehold same should be implemented it they con- ers also.' fonn to the existing laws, rules and regula tions framed by the Indian Government. So, Then the details of the meeting held Mr. Padiyar is entirely right. Somewhere were also given. somebody Is responsible for a lapse. Some where somebody has committed a mistake. T o start with the meeting was ar That is what I am saying. If an Investment of ranged on 12.9.1986 this kind has come into India and the Indian Banks have not Verified the antecedents Since the year mentioned here is 1986, and those who are dealing with the nonresi this report too must be a 1986 report. dent accounts abroad say that they did not verify the antecedents because they were SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE not required to do so, then i think Sir It is (Bolpur): Since It happens to be Shrl Bhure necessary that we kx>k into this whole as Lai’s report, it is bad. That is their view. pect of the health of our institutions very carefully. This Is what the Enforcement Di SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: No, no. rectorate also reconvnends finally, and this That was an excellent report also underlies our concern. The above In vestigations have revealed that the invest SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Now, this Is ments by the so called NRIs were out of what is relevant to my submission. Mr. black money of some unidentifiable investor Padiyar did admit that the investments In for investors. Those unkJentlfiable investors Bombay were made under his instructions can either be persons resMent in India who and that he was an Adviserto the BCCI. But have laundered a lot of money outskle India he refused to divulge the klentlty of the real through Illegal channels or by way of under- Investors as it was against the professional Invoteing, ever-invoicing, exports, imports ethics of the bankers. This is a perfectly and so on. Or, they couM be persons resi understand able sentimentforany bankerto dent out of India who have illegally amassed express. But the subsequent aspects are a wealth which has not been declared or little more worrisome. The Europe Asian subject to taxation of the country in which Bank, Bon4>ay and the Syndfcate Bank, they are resklent This is a very crucial Bombay had replied the they had not done question, this is a touchy questton too. I any verification. They sutMnitted that the expect them is a great deal of East African. money that came from BCCI was without Kenyan and Ugandan money which comes verification and the Indian Banks also dkJ not into India and It wants to come Into India In cany cut any verification, as required under the hope that in India their klentlty woukl not the rules of the Reserve Bank of India, of the be revealed. But It is again begging the 149 Motion /». collapse BHADRA 23.1913 (SMiA) of B.C.C.I. 150 que stion because in Kenya if you have tliis it does not happen but I have apprehensions kind of unaccounted money and if it comes that it will If we persist on this path, will to lightthen punishment is mandatory. There become not Just a captive of a few it will, is no question of punishment not being become a non-entity. I hate this world of moted out of poiitical patronage etc. or banana republic but it does portentd and otherwise. But in India we have no such there are portents of precisely that because thing. That I thinit has ied the Enforcement what tj^ifies the banana repubik: is the use Directorate to quite rightly observe that if of natton whether by drug, mafia or by you are not in a position to identify the real dealers, and Illegal money, for private use. investortoday the process will continue and India Is very ctose to that. India in the one day the Indian companies would be eighties had come dangerously close to be taken over by unidentified persons reskilng appropriate by a few. abroad through their attomeys from various tax havens. That is why I appeal to the Finance Minister to think of BCCI and financial I am not at all opposed, in fact we Institutions In the manner in which we are shouki do everything to encourage non- trying to put it. Please do not think that we resklent Indians money or oversee money are motivated by the concem any otherthan coming Into India. But I do not think we will those that motivate you. encourage that if we continue to play ducks and drakes with the system, unless our I have a few ciarif Nation's to seek, a system is credible enough to carry confi few questions to ask to the hon. Finance dence with the investors. I wouldsaythatthe Minister and then I will conclude. I would manner in whteh the BCCI, and institutton of have to repeat that the original, official this land had been operated in the decades statement of the Finance Minister was very oi eightees, they do not instil confUence. unsatisfactory. I woukJ request of the Gov That Is why I saki that I will dte this Incktent ernment to come with complete details, full to point out some possible future conse facts on this matter. DM the Govemment of quences for our economy and for the State India have any Intelligence, any informatton, as such. any appreclatton of what was happening in BCCI? I am not merely refem'ng to BCCI, I have already said and I repeat, the Bombay because the hon. Finance Minister State will be appropriated by afew either by will take shelter behind that BCCI, Bomk>ay selective acceptance of the report of the was a branch of much larger organism Enforcement Directorate or by seltetive re called the BCCI. jection of this report of the Enforcement Directorate. I do not have to labour that BCCI, Bombay in partkiular. Is a sol point. Institutions will then be bent for Indl- vent bank and the figures that have ap- vMuals. Examples again abound and those examples stretch, from the great scandal of far exceed the loans granted. Some sug Bofors to the day-to-day corruptton of petty gestions have been made to me. That some patwaris. All Institutions. I put it to you Mr. of these k>ans granted are in fact against Rnance Minister, will finally go. No amount hawala securities given in London. I do not of our shared ktoalist; no amount of reforms, have to go Into a detailed explanatton of whether In fiscal policy or trade poltoy or hawala securities. The hon. Finance Minis industrial policy will be adequate or will ter wouM perfectly understand that a loan of succeed if you do not go Intothe very sinews Rs. 10 crore, without security, granted in and put Into effect what you are trying to do India wouU have a corresponding security by these three major reforms that you have in London of a similar sum of money made initiated in this veiy Session of Parilament available to BCCI, London. I am sure an It saddens me to say that If we do not audit has been canled out. All the papers are address ourselves to all these things be now with the State Bank of India. WoukJ the cause that is what lies at the centre of my hon. Rnance Minlstershare the real state of concern that many IMF toans later, many affairs of that kind of toan positton of BCCI, devaluatton’s later-the state of India, I hope Bombay? 151 Motion m. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.I. 152 [Sh. Jasw ant Singh] purposes of acquisition of weaponry by Pakistan, nuclear know-how or anything A mention has been made earner and that Pakistan wanted to do including fi it appeared in print aiso about the misuse of nance, BCCI was iMlng employed for it. moneys by BCCi, Bombay of piigrims want What information does the Govemment of ing to go on HaJ and the coiiection of EDS. India have in that regard? I wouM like the Govemment of India to share with us what infomiatton they have about this very alarm The BCCI, Bombay was lending itself ing report, that the black network of BCCI to misuse on the scheme called FCNR. There are some details with us. I do not want was indeed inseparable from or Indistin to give those details merely as speculation guishable from the ISI of Pakistan. If it was or on account of rumours. I did iiice the hon. indistinguishable and if the black network Rnance Ministerto share with us his wonles operatedthroughoutthe worid, then I am not and whetherthis FCNR deposit was asouree nsady to believe that it dkl not operate in of misuse of this ijanit. India. If ISI is indistinguishable from that t>lack network, then I wouM like to know, I would liite too know from the hon. does the Government of India have any Finance Minister about the oft-repeated information In this regard? questions of misempioyment of these banks for laundering of dnjgs and narcottos money. I want to spend a little time on Indian Did the Govemment receive any report at interests so far as totality of BCCI is con any stage from the Narcotics Bureau, from cerned and BCCI, London in particular. Here the InteiHgence Bureau or from any other I would seek your indulgence to take a Intelligence Agencies however imperfect or minute or two. Because this is a very worry unsatisfactory the InteiHgence Agencies some aspect. Here perhaps the Govem might be? I had some occasion to do some ment coukJ very easlty, without emban’ass- kwking into all these Intelligence Agencies ing any of the industrialists or bankers could when I was the chaimnan of a Committee. I have done it am notgreatiy enamoured of their efficiency tHit nevertheless if they are as efficient or inefcient as the rest of the country is, then I aminformedthatthe people of Indian that being the collective norm, what is the origin have k>st somewhere between three- informatton that the Govemment of India four billion US dollars because of the failure had in this regard, partteuiarly, with a vlewto of BCCI; and if this is the amount of money the reported meetings thatthe founders and thatthe overseas Indians - whetherresiding former chairman of BCCI had with various in London or eisewhere-have k>st surely the known drug...... What am I to call? Govemment of India ought to have initiated SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: some actton. I have apprehensions that the Drug barons. role and conduct of the Bank of England in this whole matter is not satisfactory. What SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Barons actton did the Govemment of India take? I would raise them to the level of poiitical know that the Bank of England is not at the leaders andthersfore I hesitated from using back and call of the Govemment of India or that word. the Reserve Bank of India. But for the sake of those overseas Indians who have k>st SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: }hree-fourbiilk)n USdoilars, dkl the Govern Drug barons are more powerful than some ment initiate any actton at all with the Bank of the political leaders. of England? I think the whole conduct of the SHRI JASWANTSINGH: Inthatcase, Auditors of this Bank is really most perplex barons wouM be appropriate. I am very ing. Here Isaflmiof audttors, who, year after much concerned atwut the reports that the year, have saW that this Bank Is all right and BCCI was lending itself and Indeed lent iteelf suddenly this Bank becomes not all right. as a kind of an agent, an attorney hoMer, Was the government not aware of what was collector and a tool for all seasons, for an happening? After all, those three-fourbBHon 153 Motion re. collapse BHADRA 23.1913 (SAM) of B.C.C.I. 154 US dollars that have been lost by overseas don’t support It further. My submission is Indians, each one of those overseas Indians that we have asked for a Joint parliamentary have got their relatives In India; and it was enquiry into It and issue some guidelines the responsbility, indeed the duty of the That is why I say that the least that the Government of India to have addressed govemment can do is to take a stand on this itself to this task. issue. We would like to know; are you for BCC I? Are you f or corruptton and illegality or I am also given to understand that the are you against it? You cannot be both Sheikh of Abu Dhabi has not only sent 650 t>ecause if you shaddlethe fence fortoo k>ng miilton US dollars Just a fortnight before the then the fence enters you; and I would not closure of this Bank and written off the wish that to happen. losses of 1990. indeed he agreed also to meet all the other tosses as well. What There is an organisation called 'Brit Initiative dkl the Govemment of India take to ish Organisation of People of Indian Origin." encourage this Initiative of the SheB(h of They have demanded an intemational en Abdu Dhabi? It ought to have taken some quiry into this whole scandal of BCCI; and I initiative because so many Indians are In am told that the Chairman or somebody of volved, even if they are overseas Indians. this Organisation has perhaps requested the Prime Minister of India to support the The courts in the UK have stayed the request that he has already made to the Receivership of this Bank until the Second of British Prime Ministerfor a need of a proper Decemiser 1991. I think the Govemment enquiry into the collapse of the BCCI. Has has got and some politicians, businessmen the Government of India received any such andformercivii servants orpresent day civil request; and if it has, what is its action? servants have got a reprieve until Second of December because on Second of Decem I would like to share with the hon. the ber when it goes to the Receiver and when Finance Ministerandthis too is worrisonfieto the offk:ial lk|uidatorpublishes a list of alithe me, because I believe that the Westem accounts-hokters, then I do not want my security services and the agencies like the good friend, for whom I have the highest CIA and others have misused this Bank. regards to be emban^sed, because that They employed it as a conduit, a laundering list which would been published only in agency, whether it was Iran Contra affair or December, might contain very embarrass any other affairs, they have misused it If ing names and might contain a very embar they have misused, surely, the Govemment rassing amount. Therefore. I would appeal of India would have t>een in the knowledge to the hon. Finance Minister that whatever of what was happening. he says, he must take into account that the Receivership of the Bankisyettotake place. I woukJ like to make one other re quest: That he must make a study of what I have earlier submitted that I find it impact the BCCI closure, even it is a tem very peiplexing when universally the con porary closure, what impact it woukl have in duct and the illegality of the BCCI is being London and on NRI investments into India in condemned. It Is only the Govemment of the coming months. And I woukJ request the India and the Congress Party whksh seems Finance Minister to share his thinking on to be supporting the BCCI and all that the this subject with us. BCCI has done. I would also request the hon. Finance SHRIDIGVUAYA SINGH (Rajgarh): Minister to announce in Pariiament what We never supported It. measures he Is contemplating so far as the ordinary depositor or investor in the Bonrtbay SHRI JASWANT SINGH: You never branch of the BCCI Is concemed. For how supported It I am so relieved to hear it. Then k>ng is his money going to be tocked up? And 155 Motion ra. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.L 156 [Sh. Jaswant Singh] were public as early as in 1980. in fact, to the best of my recollection and Icnowledge. some what is going to happen to all the employees of the South American branches of this Bank of the BCCI. Bombay, who are currently were closed on account of their nexus with neither here northers? drug laundering, and If I remember right, these disclosures took place in 1983.1 find I am saddened to have to refer to a it very strange that the hon. the Finance letter which I have received. It is from an Minister shouki have laboured so hard and organisation that calls itself. Th e Indian protestedso much that the Bank sanctioned Musfims Forum, U.K.*and I find it objection in 1979 was not merely a representative able not for any other reason, but for what It offtee, but it was for a full-fledged banking contains against my esteemed and good operatton. In 1983 when you finally permit friend. Shri George Fernandes. And I would ted them to open a bank, in India was that Hke to read- out what it says about Shri not sinwitaneously with some of the South Geoige Fernandes t find It most objection- American banks actually being closed down sibie i condemn it in the strongest temis and for charges related to drug laundering? And I would iil There are just two demands that I have. lor I wilt, of course, answer the points that the * and recommends the Immediate hon. Minister of Finance - and others make announcement of norms of conduct when It comes to my reply. But I woukl urge by the pubik: financial instituttons and the hon. Rnance Minister and the Govern the establishment of a Joint Parla- ment to accept these two demands. Please mentaty Committee of enquiry In the lay the established gukleiines for public matter.” finandal Instituttons of the country. And secondly, please Institute a Joint Parliamen substitute— tary Committee to look into totality of this great scandal, that Is, BCCI. * and d esires the Government to en sure that In view of ctosure of the SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES Bank’s operations, the interests of (Muzaffarpur): 1 beg to move: Indians and NRIs who Invested and dealt with BCCI are adequately pro That in the motion,— tected.* (4) after Indian Companies’ Insert SHRI DIGVUAYASn^ (R^ait)):Sir, this House has gone through one of the *acting as a condutt for shell compa longest speeches we have heard In the nies to brbig Into the country unac recent times, H has gone at least for more 159 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.I. 160 [Sh.Digvijaya Singh] that irregularity. than two hours in the Session when tho SHRISOMNATHCHATTERJEE:When? Budget had to be guillotined only after discussing three Ministries. SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: In 1986. He may have been chedted by the then Gov Sir,using the phraseology of ShrlJaswant ernment. But who stopped him In 1989 Singh, his vert>ai ejaculations relatively sen- Novenrtber when his mentor Mr. V.P. Singh saUonai in appearance, have been totally became the Prime Minister, when our dear sterile in content friends In the Left Frond and the BJP-agaIn to use Mr. Jaswant Singh’s phraseology- 17.00 hrs werecohabltlng with that Govemment? What steps Mr. Bhurelal, or for that matter Mr. SHRISOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Better V.P. Singh, toolc to take stringent action at this ago. against those very people who might have committed some crime? SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Sir, we had to sit through two hours of his long speech and In the present context. Sir, we have just he came out with only one instance which passed a Bill through which we want foreign referred to Rs. 22 crores of foreign ex Investment to come to this country. So, the change coming Into this country and being only point that Mr. Jaswant Singh made in invested. his long speech becomes inelevant today. SHRIJASWANTSINGH: There are oth ASwlssbanlter'scommentlwouldlllteto ers also. quote. He said, i quote: SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Oh, we have “Find me one banlcer who will say no to some more alsol Sir, as far as I am con a multimillion dollar deposit, even if he has cerned, I had to go through two hours of his serlousdoubts about the origin of that nraney. speech and heard him with rapt attention. And how Is he to know that the dmg or the The Rs. 22 crores of foreign exchange that gun runner, who may be behind the money, came in and that too which was brought out is going to fall out of favour two years from the then Director of Enforcement in 1986, now?’ the Lily-white Mr. Clean, Mr. Bhurelal, who had an occasion of eleven Sir, all public lending institutions' scan months...(/r)te/nipftons). dals or working has to be seen with this in the back of our mind. SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR (Malladuturai): Sir, Bhurelal cannot t>e The Motion, as it stands saifs: Ulywhite because ‘Bhure’ means brown and la l' means red. That this House, taking serious note of the collapse of the Bank of Credit 17.01 hrs. and Commerce Intematlonal (Over seas) Ltd. (BCCI) expresses Its con PHRIMATIMALINIBHATTA CHARAYA cern about various reports of misuse of funds by this bank. Inclusive of bi the Chalrl cornering of stocks of Indian Compa nies’ - that Is part-1 - ’and recom SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: I appreciate mends the Immediate arihduncement the point. Sir. The point he made was that of norms of conduct by the pubHc some irregularity was committed and the financial Instltuttons’ • part-ll • ‘and Directorate of Enforcement came across the establishment of Joint Parllamen- 161 Motion re. coUapsB BHADRA23,1913(S/VC4) ofB.C.C.1. 162 tar y Committee of enquiry in the mat SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Obviously, ter* • part-ill. These three points are proved to be sterile later on. So much was the content of this motion. said about Bofors: "So much corruption was there, such and such person has done it, we As far as the first part goes, we certainly are going to bring out all the names In 15 have no objection in expressing our concern days or 30 days’. Shri V. P. Singh said so. about various reports of misuse of funds by Now he says that he did not say it some of this bank, inclusive of cornering of stoci(s of his woriters must have said it. We do not Indian companies. know who said it. But, at least, the people of this country gave him an opportunity to Any Indian company, or for that matter name at least those persons who were really any person of Indian origin, if he violates any involved in the Bofors issue. But that has law prevailing in the land, then the matter also proved sterile. has to be enquired into and if anyone vio lates the law, then action has to be tai^en The Joint Parliamentary Committee dkl against him. There is no doubt about it We go into H. The Opposition first said: ‘Set up have no objection to it. the J.P.C.*. We did set up the J.P.C. Then they saM: ‘No, make an Opposition Mem Then the second part is; ber as Chairman*. ‘recommends the immediate an SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY: No, nouncement of nomis of conduct by we did not say so. the public financial institutions*. SHRI DIGVUAYASINGH:Thatwas said. I may say that there are already well laid I was a Memberthen also. I am not yiekJIng. out guidelines and nonns of conduct by the public financial institutions which, I feet, are Then they said: ‘Give us more represen goodenough. What may be necessary is the tation in the Committee; not as per the will to implement those norms. strength of the House*. When we agreed to set up a Joint Parliamentary Committee, the SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE Congress Party had the mandate of the (Damdum): There Is a recent modification. people at that time and as perthe represen tation In the House which was prevalent in SHRI DK3VUAYASINGH: Unfortunately, the Eighth Lok Sabha, the Parliamentary the hon. Member who has moved this mo Committee was constituted. Ourdearfriends tion, has not cared to define what are the were really not interested In finding out the norms which he wants to propose and what details. They were only Interested in spread are the norms and conduct which he finds ing dislnformatton, characterassassination, oppressive, lenient and missing. That is why making insinuations and which - 1 must give I say that his two hours’ ordeai was sterile in them credit for that - they had very success content fully done. Then, the third part Is: There Is another very important and pertinent point. Mr. Michael Hershman - 1 will *^stabllshment of Joint Parliamentary come to him a little later • in his interview Committee* We had Instituted a Joint published In the INDIA TODAY (September Parliamentary Committee inthe Bofots 15,1991) also refen«d to the Joint Partia- Issue also. mentaryCommitteetobe bipartisan. Idonot see the nexus. Is there a nexus? I do not SHRISAIFUDDINCHOUDHRY(Katwa); think so. We will haveto go Into it. But, at the That was also, sterile. same time, he does go bitoasuggestion that 163 Mothn IB. oottapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 ot B.C.C.L 164 {Sh.Dlgvi]aya Singh] aOowed to testify. Then, Sir. Shri Jaswant Singh II was again let down by the Court the scandals of the BCCI can be tMought oideron the Bank of England thattHI Decem- out, provided a bipartisan committee of ber1991 the names couM not be announced. Parliament is formed and that too... Sir. It Is very unfortunate. It wouMhavebeen properlf this nwtioncoukJ have been brought I would like to quote him: in January. By then the sources of Shri Jaswant Singh and Shri George Femandes The question asiced was;'tiowcouid the woukl have brought out a list probably as truth be forced to come out?* they claimed, they woukl have brought out In the Bofors scandal. The same list coukl Theanswergiven by Mr. Hershman was: have been made available to us and to the country. Unfortunately, Sir. It came a Httle We could have a strong, Independent too late. investigation by a bipartisan Parlia ment, with the resouiees and profes Sir. what are the amendments? The first sional staff necessary to conduct the amendment of ShriOeorige Femandessays: Inquiry. If there were people of sub stance in bidia who wanted to see an ‘after “Indian companies* insert 'acting investigation proceed they could con- as a conduit for shell companies...* I believe celvabiy do It with private resouiees*. the shell companies are those companies which are operating from tax haven. Am I Sir. hon. Menrtwr Shri Jaswant Singh, correct. Sir? when he started on Friday, could have con ceivable asked for discusston on Monday SHRIGEORQEFERNANDES:Yes,Sir. also. But, obviously, he did not do so. SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Thank you. Because, on 11th September, the House of Representatives in United *... to bring Into the country unac Statas...(Mem49fltons) counted nwney for investment in se lected Indian Companies, and Indulg Iquote from EconomicTimes dated 26lh ing in various sub rosa activities bi- July 1991: dudlng financing the smuggling of arms and other contraband materiaT. ‘On the 11th of September the first American Chairman, Claik CHfOfd and Robert His second amendment says: Altman, the Bank& PrBSktont, hadagieedto after "financial instituttons* insert— testify at the first hearing, the Committee (Congresstonal Committae) saM.* In the matter of lending any manner of support in corporate disputes and Sir, probably he wanted to wait for that takeovers* hearing to take place on the 11th Septem ber. Reliance and L S T. ->they shouM not be aikiwed to take over, they shouM be Sir. Michael Hershman. the great hero of asked to stop. the Fairfax and Bofors scandals, volun- teeied to testify before the augusit Commit His third amendment says: tee. But unfortunately. Sir. the people in the Capital have found him not too credUe and ikMattheend^ dU not aHow him to testify before the Com mittee. It Is very unfortunate. Being one of *; and further recommends that tin the the sources of our friends hem. he was not nonns menttoned herein are finalised and approved, the public finandalin* 165 Motion m.ooBapse BHADRA23,1913(SMM) of B.C.C.L 166 stHutions do not take any steps that That in the motion,- will benefit companies figuring in tlie BCCI scandal.' for'and recommends the immediate announcement of norms of conduct Sir, this amendment totally relates to an by the public financial Instituttons and issue— the corporate war which has been the establishment of a Joint Parlia going on in this country for a fairly long time mentary Committee of enquiry in the — Reliance and Bombay Dyeing. Sir, it is matter* very unfortunate that this House has be come a battlefield for the two corporate substitute- giants of this country. (Intenuptions). ‘and desires the Government to en Sir, it is imre unfortunate that a Member sure that In view of ctosure of the of Parliament of such standing as Jaswant Bank’s operations, the Interests of Singh ji and also Shri George Fernandes Indians and NRIs who invested and are using this opportunity and this floor of dealt with BCCI are adequately pro the House to plead one way or the otherthe tected" positions that have been tal(en by one orthe other. Sir, these corporate giants have This is the concern of the House, which, enough resources to fight their own battle unfortunately, was not brought out by my outside this august House. Let us not waste friends in the Opposition and we had to bring our time in fighting their battles here. Why in this kind of amendment whteh was neces should we become pawns in their hands? sary. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: In fact, I have That is why I say that ourfriends here are not referred to any of these companies. not really concerned with the concern which this House must have, forthe Indian deposi SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: He tors. But, they are using this BCCI issue as thinks you should have done it. another weapon, another stick to beat this Govemment with and settle politbal scores. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: He is free to make any charge which he I3(es. But I have SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: What not referred to any of these conpanies. Is wrong in it? SHRI DIGVUAYASINGH:lamnot mak SHRI DIGVUAYASINGH: lhave the full ing any charge. right to say whatever I want to say. We have the same story again, as we had during the SHRI JASWANTSINGH: You have made Fairfax and Bofors • disinformation, charac ter - assassination, innuendoes. Insinua tion, half-truths, leaks and throw mud In aH SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: It is not a directions, at least some will stick. First we charge. (Interrupttons) i am not in favour of had Bofors and now we have BCCI. Who are anyone. I am in favour of the depositors of the lead players? They are, Mr. Mtoheal Indian origin who have their money invested Hershman, Mr. V. P. Singh. Mr. George In the BCCI. This particular point was Fernandes, Mr. Gurumurthy and the IN brought out in the amendments given by DIAN EXPRESS. (Interruptions) Shri Prakash Patil and Shri GamiL That shows their concern. So, I wouM like to SHRI JASWANTSINGH: lamthemover congratulate them for having given the right of the motion. kind of amendment in this whole motion. That amendment says: SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: that is why I was reluctant to tell yourname and you wars 167 Motion n. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.I. 168 |Sh.DigvlJaya Singh] investigator for the Watergate Committee. These are the credentials of the great man. not the Memtwr of the Eighth Lolt Sabha of Mr. Harshman. which I happened to t)e a Member. In the Fairfax issue, who retained him to SHRI JASWANT SINGH: But I have work for the Government of India? Was it enough to do with Bofors. Mr. V.P. Singh, Mr. Bhure Lai, Mr. Gurumurthy or Mr. Nusli Wadia? This the SHRIDIGVUAYASINGH:Then, {would unholy nexus because of which we are caH It unholy nexus. discussing the motion here in this House. Who pakf him the expenses? Certainly not SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: I think the Government of India, it was sakJ so. Who the list is exhausted. employed him? Again I quote Mr. Michael Hershman from the India Today. The ques SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: The list is tion was put: *How soon after dkl you come endless. The credentials of Mr. Sonnnath to know that there was something wrong’. Chatteijee and the Left parties are not at all He answers: *lt was almost immediately in doubt in this matter. We have nothing after because I was given infomiation and against them. The stand that they took files*. By whom? It wasgiven by the Finance regarding Fairfax issue was categorical and Minister. That showed him the extent of dear and we appreciate that BCCI's involvement. That is why, I have said earlier, this is a part of the intemationai Madam, unfortunately, the unholy nexus conspiracy. They are out to malign true remains the same and unfortunately the BCCI operations in Bombay, India, the Gov taigetaisoremainsthesame-theCongress ernment of Mr. Narasimha Rao and the Party, Mr. Ri^iv Gandhi and his family. It Is milng Party. very unfortunate that these very people are still not hesitating to condemn a dead man Mr. V. P. Singh In his appearance before who valiantly lost his life for the country. the ThakkarCommission hasdenledthat he Their effort to malign the personality of Shrl had overcome into contact with Mr. Michael Rajiv Gandhi and his family is totally deplor Hershman. I do not know whom to believe. able and it should be treated with utter But obviously I woukJ ISce to believe Mr. V. P. contempt. This is the disinformation not Singh when he is compared with Mr. Michael propagated by Shrl Jaswant Singh only but Hershman. Both are experts in by the unholy nexus. disinformation. I am only saying whom to believe more and whom to believe less. You read the India Today interview by Michael Hershman. Who is Michael SHRI ABDUL GHAFOOR (Gopaigan]): Hershman? We must know about Mtohael Why are you after Mr. Hershman? He must Hershman. In his own words in Washington be a nastiest man in the wofld. But he was Business Journal inten/lew which he gave enquiring whether a partteular person was a on 11 May. 1987 he says: Nearly all staff thief or dacoit. (Intem^ions.) come from Government. C.I.A.. FBI. IRS, military intelligence, police and every em- SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: That is why I ptoyee in fairfax group even the secretary is am saying that I woukJ rather believe Shri a licensed Investigator. Who is Hershman? VIshwanath Pratap Singh than Mr. Michael I refer to a brief of his career. He began his Hershman although both of them were ex investigation career during the late ’60s as perts in disinformatton. Who introduced military special agent specialising in coun Michael Herehman to Shri Bhure Lai? Shri ter-terrorism. He then moved on to Investi Bhure Lai himself sakf that - In a statement gate Government corruption and financial Itwasacknowiedged-ltwasShriGurumutthy fraud for New York City and later served as who introduced him to Michael Hershman. Who Is Shri Gurumurthy? Shrl Gurumurthy \169 Motion re. collapse BHADRA 23.1913 {SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 170 Is a Chartered Accountant with known RSS the Leader of the mling party which he tried leanings. his best to do. But unfortunately til! now he has been unable to do so...(lnten’uptions) SHRI SOMANTH CHATTERJEE The BCCI may be involved in all kinds of (Bolpur): That Is why he is Shri Jaswant rackets outskle the country. It really does Singh's friend. (Intenuptions) not concern as far as I am concerned. It does not concern us at ail. What are the SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: That is to tM operattons of the BCCI in Bombay? They conected. This unholly nexus Is to be cor are our primary conoem. They shouW be rected. Coming to mypoint, ShriGurumurthy punished if they have realty vtolated any of is the Economic Advisor to whom? He was our laws. I hokJ no brief for the BCCI or for the Economic Advisor to Shri R. N. Goenka the Reliance Group or for that matter the of the Indian Express Group, the author of all Bomt>ay Dyeing or whatever it is. I certainly articles written against the Reliance Group do objecttothewaythingsare being brought in Indian Express. And, for whose benefit it out through this august House to the nation was written? Was it meant for the benefit of whtoh are casting motives on our action, the rival corporate giant Shri Nusli Wadia? whteh are casting aspersions on people Well, I do not know about it. It couM be for whom we are politically opposed to. It has anyones benefit. Who pakl for Mr. Michael been amply made clearby the hon. Finance Hershman's stay in India? As It appears, he Minister that the liaison offtoe was opened stayed in the hotel Obgeroi Continental. during the Janata Party regime. There is no Was it a coincidence that the Chairman of doubt about it; there is no dispute as far as the Borr^y Dyeing Group also stayed in it is concerned. the same hotel during that time? He was an honoured guest of the hon. Chairman. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: He has asked me one question and I have to clarify. SHRI ABDUL GHAFOOR: Was Shri Jaswant Singh there or not? SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: You may an swer in your reply. (Intenxiptions) SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: I cannot say about Shri Jaswant Singh. But Shri SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: There is the Gurumutthy was certainly there. racommendatton of the then Minister of State. Who was the then Minister of State? SHRI SOMNATHCHATTERJEE: DM he He was Shri Satish Chandra Aganwal. speak on Fairfax now? SHRI JASWANTSINGH: Was hethera? SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: I dM not have Please verify the fact before you say that. the opportunity to hear him. But he dkJ refer to that.(lnterruptk>ns) SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: It may be anyone. I stand corrected. But the then MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Mentwrs should Minister of State for Rnance made some kindly address the chair. recommendation. It can be corrected. But now I stand by the name I mentioned. The (Intenvf^ions) then Minister of State for Rnance in 1979 proposed to the Rnance Minister and to the SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: That is why I Prime Minister that the branch shouM be sakl earlier that the Intention behind the opened. motion is really not to took afterthe interests of the depositors and the emptoyees of SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: How BCCI. As 8 post-scrlpt, hon. Member Shri do you know? Jaswant Singh added In his speech one thing and so the intent was very clear. It is SHRIDIGVUAYASINGH:ltwasastate- abned at how to malign the ruling party and ment made by the Finance Minister. The 171 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 172 I am not saying that. K is Mr. Mkshael Finance Minister did malte a statennent. He Hershman's interview in India Today which I did Intervene on the last Friday. is saying this. And I am extremely g rateful to India Today and to Mr. Michael Hershman It was the dirty eighties decade which the for having come out with this. Itfurthersays; hon. Shri Jaswant Singh mentioned in his speech In his usual style and In his usual Th e charges weren’t important. What vocalwlary. Only after 1983, the pemnission was important was to have evkience was granted and that too, for six long years. to support some charges so we could They had to undergo strict investigations seek the cooperation of the BCCI and enquires by the Reserve Bank and only employees being charged.* when they were convinced that the RBI's guidelines were being followed, then only Shri Bhure Lai must have saM,”excellent the permission was granted. No favours kJea, Mr. Mtehael Hershman. Let us go were granted. There were so many foreign ahead.* And theywent ahead. What did they banks operating in this country and that too, come out with? They came out, as per India on the specifto recommendations of so many Today with this and I quote: NRIs of the country who wanted BCCI to have a branch In this country. Reguiartrans- Th e catch: 471 fake passports and a acttons were done. I must give a credit to total of 84,000 doliare in cash and Shri Jaswant Singh for this. He hintseif has traveller’scheques. The scam-taking claimed and observed that the Bombay 500 dollars as foreign travel allow branch of the BCCI was totally solvent and ance for each passport holder • was Is totally solvent. Then where Is the con worth 2,35,000 dollars.* cern? What Is the problem then? Rrst is the question of 471 fake pass The same unholy nexus - 1 dkJ not go to ports. On a later enquiry, not one that-rakted on the 16th July, 1986theBCCi passport was found fake. The usual branch In Bombay. practice with the Ha] pilgrims is that when there Is rush to go to Ha], they Why did they raM It? I again quote Mr. usually give their FTAs to the travel Michael Hershman. He says: agents to cash that to avail the FTAs. *We also realised we were not going So, in that rush hour, that was the oppor- to get cooperattonfromBCCI: it wasn't tunfty for the great detective of Shri V.P. in their best interest. So we began Singh’s Government, Shri Bhureial, who talking about a method for getting the came up with a brilliant idea, to catch the Information we needed. There were BCCI andforcethemtocoogerate on some two plans. One was to try to enlist the thing which was totally unrelated to. This support of the US and the British was the intention behind ait this operatton. govemments In the investigation. The That is why, I oppose and because the intent other was to gather enough informa is totally maiafide. The intent is totally politi tion on BCCrs wrong doings in India • cal villflcatton. It was not the concern for the to go afterthem criminally and try and depositors of Indian origin. It was only a force them to cooperate.* politk»l vendetta; a polittoal vendetta that we sawlnthe 8th LokSabhaand^aln being Mark the works to force them to cooper repeated now In this House. That Is why, I ate’. say that this is a motion which Is entirely sterile In content but. totally political in In *That is why Bhure Lai took actton tents. You see the list of creditors of BCCI; against BCCI in Bombay.” It makes a very interesting reading. Who 173 Motion m. collapse BHADRA23,1913(S>VC4) of B.C.C.I. 174 wer e the creditors? It was Tatas with a total gling in this country has to be checked. The exposure amounting to Rs. 10.77 crores; narcotic links of politicians must be closely Birias • Rs. 21.34 crores; Reliance • Rs. 10.8 scrutinised. My colleague, Shrimati crores: R. P. Goenka Rs. 22.69 crores; Vasundhara Raje, was also complaining to Godrej • Rs. 7.69 crores and United Group me how the narcotk; and the politcal nexus - Rs. 15.20 crores. They are the creditors of has been troubling her in her constituency. the BCCi • the leading industrial houses of I also personally know although Dr. Laxmi this country, who have been taking the Narayan Pandey wouM not own upbecause advantage of the BCCI financing and who he Is so rigidly attuned to his party. (Interrup have been paying thelrreguiardues on time. tions) I hold no brief for the BCCI. let them be hanged from my skle if they had committed [Translationl any irregularities. But, do not malign those people who are doing their job profession SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Since the ally, competently in this country and who name of Shri V. P. Singh has been men have been paying the tax on time. Why tioned and as he is not present, so I wouM shouM they be condemned and why should like to say something. I was with him. Shri they be maligned? That is my objection. Shrlvastava Ji, M.L.C. was also there with us on that day. They came quite late is the The India Today in its report, has made evening. The fact that Shri V. P. Singh spme remarks about its narcotic links. I do attended 'iftar' dinner at a smuggiere not know anything about it. It may be en premises maybe verified. Allegattons shouW quired into. Our Narcotics Bureau may go not be levelled in an irresponsible manner. Into tt; the Finance Minister may look into it; or RAW or IB may go into it Names of two [English] persons have been mentioned as having narcottes Hnks with Mr. Abedi. I would like to SHRI OIGVIJAYA SINGH: The links be quote their names. One is Nasir All of tween the narcotk: smuggiere and the poli Shahjahanpur and another is Ramesh ticians must be closely inquired into. I would Chandra Kochar of Delhi. I do not really urge upon the Hon. Minister that whoever is know about Ramesh Chandra Kochar of concemed... Delhi but certainly we do know about Nasir All of Shahjanahpur, because, he was one of SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: He will the known narcotic smuggler of the country never do that. I challenge you. and Shrl V. P. Singh had the occasion to have Iftar dinner at his house in SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Why doni Shahjahanpur. As Rnance Minister, he had you cooperate? the total economic intelligence of this coun try and after resigning as Finance Minister, [Translatton] he went to attend the After dinner, when he was having a stormy countryside tours. He SHRI RAMVILAS PASWAN: Let JPC obliged Shri Nasir AH. investigate. SHRISOMNATH CHATTERJEE: It had lEngttshJ blown you off I SHRIMATI VASUNDHARA RAJE: It is a SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Temporarily very important point. (Interrupttons) We wiH forelevenmonthsandshouMlsaywith your be very very grateful if this kind of thing couM kind cooperatton along with the BJP. (Inter- take place. Hon. Rnance Minister is sitting nipUons) It may again be double checked. there. He has suggested JPC. Why don’t We have no objection. I wouM like it to be you do it? (Interruptions) checked. I woukJ like the Finance Ministerto be very dear about It. The narcotic smug SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: With your cooperatton. 175 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.I. 176 last few years time. I wouki urge upon Hon. SHRIMATI VASUNDHARA RAJE: We Members not to resort once again on an will give full cooperation. issue whteh is totally unrelated, to go through the same exercise and resort to ail those SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: I am pre disinformation and character assassinations pared to cooperate with you. that we have seen in the case of Bofors. That is why I would urge upon ail the Members not SHRI RAM VIUVS PASWAN: At least we to vote for this Motion. must agree on tills point. The Finance Min ister Is sitting there. P'ranslation] SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: I admire Hon. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES Shrl Pawsan's ardent support and ardent (Muzaffarpur): Mr. Chainnan, Sir. the hon’bie admiration for Mr. V. P. Singh in whose Member Shri Jaswant Singh in his speech Cabinet he had the honour to remain for has referred to the letter that has been sent eleven long months. Did he evertry or mai(e by the Indian Muslim Forum. Perhaps cop an effort to bring the narcotics dealer to ies of this letter have been received by other booi(? Never. I do not i(now of any Instance members also because the letters which as such. (Interruptions) have been addressed to the hon. Prime Minister and the hon. Minister of Finance [Translation] bear a foot note mentioning that copies of the letter have been fonvatdedto aiithe hon. SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Since we Members of Parliament, to the Members of failed to do it, so we welcome the Congress Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha both. Though (I) to do what ail has not been done. (Inter the letter does not mainly contain any such ruptions) thing on whtoh objection can be raised. SHRIDIGVUAYASINGH; I amwith you. 17.47 hrs. Mr. Ram Vilas Paswan, on this point. (Inter ruptions) Ouronly concern as citizens of this [RAO RAM SINGH in the Chaii] country and as Members of this august House is to confine ourselves to the inter Yet I have got reservation about two ests of people of Indian origin who have paragraphs where In It has been stated:- deposited their life earnings and^avings in BCCI, Bombay, or for that matter in BCCI's [EngBsh] any branch In the world. The Finance Minis ter must make every effort possible to safe *What is most regrettable and repre guard their Interests. At the same time, Hon. hensible is that such Indian politk»l Rnance Minister must look into and safe leaders as Mr. George Fernandes, a guard those employees’ Interests who are Member of Indian Parliament, has being unnecessarily punished. A profitable even used the opportunity to Insult branch, solvent branch, of BCCI shouki be and injure the religious sentiments of altowed to function as per the RBI guide the Muslims bylevelling such false lines. It can either be taken up by any of the and frivolous aliegattons that BCCI nationalised banks - the SBI • or any other was being used as a conduit fortrans- way the Rnance Minister feels is correct. fening funds overseas from India un That Is our only concern. der the cover of HaJ Pilgrimage ex penses. We have checked this out I would like to conclude on this note that with our Indian sources who have told we have seen mudsiinging of the most, I us that this allegation Is baseless.* woukJ say, undesirable content and most unfortunate in sometime to come and in the 177 Motion m. collapse BHADFtA23, {SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 178 [Translation] in the end they have appealed to the hon. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE Memt>er8 of Parliament. It is said on the last (Bolpur): This will also be handed over to paragraph that JPC. ‘Also responsible and considerate MemtMis... SHRIGEORGE FERNANDES: No body will indulge in a propaganda where religion MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fernandes, what is involved. Sir, the diwussion on the issue Is this document which you are quoting could have been conducted in a better from? manner, had the hon. Minister of Finance provided some additional infomnation as SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: This committed by him in the last paragraph of his document is sent by an organisation called statement made last time. The hon. Minister the Indian Muslim Forum, UK (In London stated: Borough of Newham), 7, Dunbar Road, Forest Gate, London E7, UK addressed to lEngllshJ the Prime Minister and the Finance Minister and copies to ^ i Members of Parliament, that ls,'M 9m b ^ of Rajya Sabha and Lok ‘ I have made the above statement on Sabha. This letter is dated 31st August, the basis of Information available at 1991. But it is addressed only to two. (Inter present. In case further information ruptions) becomes available, the Govemment will take appropriate action.* P'ranslatlon] P ’ranslatlon] I have got the copy by post. Shri Rabi Ray have also received the copy the letter by It wouM have been better if the hon. post. Minister of Finance had issued anotherstate- ment about the additional informatton re (English] ceived and the action taken thereon by the Govemment. In that case the scope of the ‘Also, responsible and considerate Mem current discusston could have been limited bers of Parliament must ensure that such any probably there woukl not have been any Members as Mr. George Fernandes are not allowed to insult Islam and the Indian Mus requirement for it. But since additional infor lims by such baseless allegations against matton has not been provkied now we will the Haj Pilgrimage.’ have to widen the scope of the discussion. I hope a detailed discusston will be heki. P ’ranslatlon] Sir, It is necessary to understand the Sir, If I may say In one sentence, I have ramifications of the issue, whtoh is being never levelled such an allegation neither I debated upon in the House. Firstly, why and could level such an allegation nor I could how dM this Bank made entry in the country think In those terms today even but since on and who gave permission for opening Its behalf of the oiganisation it has been said branches. We wouM I9 into the matter and the Reserve Bank entry of a foreign bank into India? Is it also of India scrutiny of BCCI, Bonibay not a fact that the then Governor of the branch did not reveal financing/acqui Reserve bank had refused to attend that sition of real estate t>uslness/prop- meeting? Is it not true that despite all this, erty.* the Bank was allowed to open its branch in the country and Is it not a fact that the then Of course, It did not because the intelli Resen/e Bank Governor described It to bea gence agency viewed this as a fraught on very wrong deciston and took a decision to the security risk. Before the Reserve Bank keep a special watch on the activities of this of India came in, Mr. Finance Minister, the Bank? intelligence agency had come into the pic ture. This is your statement. I do not have Mr. Chainnan, Sir, perhaps Shri Digvljaya access to this intelligence report. It is your Singh has leftthe House, but he should have statement that I was quoting. been here, because he had expressed his reservation about bringing his party or party SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: You are leadere Into the picture. We too are not miss-quoting the statement. I did say that interested in bringing any party into picture, ourlntelligence agency has got some report but there should be no objection whatso to this effect. They saM that this should be ever, if I say that lk»nse was granted to this k)oked into. The Reserve Bank of India Bank in 1983 during Shrimati Indira Gan kK>ked into this and they sakJ that there was dhi's tenure as Prime Minister, despite the no tmth in it. reservattons expressed by the Governor of the R.B.I., because it is a fact. I know that SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I have questtons would be raised regarding the the information that an effort was made to steps taken by Shri V. P. Singh In this acquire the real estate. I am making this regard. In 1986, when it canne to notice that statement with full responsibility that the some Indian companies operating from Isle efforts were made to acquire the real estate of Man purchased shares of Reliance com pany of the B.C.C.I. worth Rupees two and Intelligence agency dkl submit a report crores on the basis of share capital of 200 andthe Reserve Bankdid make a statement Pounds any when investigation into the that the Finance Minister has just now re matter was done why no action was taken in ferred. 1987 on the basis of that report? Why tt was not Implemented In 1988? When they put MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a little differ questtons as to why Shri V. P. Singh dMnl ence, Mr. George Fernandes. You are say take any action on the basis of that report, ing that it was checkmated because the they tend to forget ail these things. When Intelligence agency stepped in. But the Fi they can raise such questions, there won’t nance Minister is saying that he check be anything wrong on my part, if I say that It mated as soon as he came to know about It. was Shrimati Indira GandhFs Govemment, which issued the lk»nse to this bank in the SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Sir, I year 1983. started by saying that I maybe making some mistakes in terms of personalities, dates Mr. Chairman, Sir, we wouM like to get and so on and so forth. So, Mr. Chairman, the replies to these questions on the floor of Sir, we wouM like to know as to underwhose the House. The most important point is how pressure and under what circumstances this bank was allowed to open its branch in permission was granted to this bank when the country. the Reserve Bank of India was not in its favour. Is It not a fact that a meeting of the Mr. Chainnnan, Sir, another important Secretaries was convened for this specific questton is regarding the activities of the purpose and an effort was made to change bank in this country. I have got some lettere an the rules and procedures Goveming the 183 Motton re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.I. 184 ^ h . Geoige Fernandes] *We will rely upon the statement ma(to by the finance Minister of India on with me. One is from ttie Employees Union 7.8.91 that nothing Illegal or Irregular of the banlc. Those peopie came to meet me. Is found In the woiklng of the Bombay They must have met some other hon. Mem- Branch of the BCCI*. bersas weii. Theytoid ustheirprobiems, but aiong with that they have pointed out to a [Translation] very dangerous thing in their letter. They have addressed this letter to the Deputy They have deposed this before the court Governor of the Reserve Bank, the first On the one hand, we have this letter of the sentence of which reads as follows. employees and our sympathies are also with them. On the other. I have with me this [EngtshJ letter from the B. C. C. I. Bombay Branch Depositors Forum, C/o Bombay Cricket *We the entire staff of B.C.C.I. at the Assosication, signed by fourprominent per outset wish to apologise to the Re sons viz Shri Madhav Mantri, President serve Bank of India for having put Bombay Cricket Association, Shri M. R. Pal, them in a rather awkward situatton.* PreskJent, All India Depositors’ Associatton, Shri A.N. Parikh and Shri A. Lobo. This letter P ’rans'Jation] was written, after holding a meeting of the forura In their letter, they have made certain This, they have written, despite the fact remariffi about the R. B. I. to which the hon. that they personally haven't put anyone In Minister of Finance shoukJ pay attention. I an awkward situation. They are the poor am not asking the Finance Minister to look Indians who had been employed by the into it. because their remarks are unwar bank. They are no way at fault, they were ranted or anything IHce that Rather, they merely working in the Bank for their liveli have sakl that R. B. I. has been keeping a hood. Today, they are jobless yet, they ate watch on the activities of the B. C. C. I., as not wonied for their future. Rather, they they do in the case of nationalised banks have expressed their concem over the fate and they have been Issuing certifk»tes. In of the depositors, those who have taken fact, It was the Resenre bank of India, which k»ns from the Bank, those who wanted to granted B. C. C. I., the license to operate In take loans and those people, whose busi India and whteh audited Its accounts and to ness has come to a grinding halt, as a result quote them - of the collapse of the bank, but alongwlth all this, they have mentioned something seri [English] ous as well. They have filed a case In the Bombay High Court “Since the RBI has a reputation for adequately safeguarding through [EngUshJ maintenance of substantial statutory reserves and through tight controls, ‘In the High Court of Judicature of the Interest of the depositors of all Bombay, Ordinary Original Civil juris- banks operating bi India none of us dtetion. Company petltton No. 389 of had an kieathat we wouM be devas 1991. tated by double blackage of our mon eys'. [Tianslatlon] [Translation] It is against the R. B. I. In this petHlon, filed on behalf of the employees, it Is men They have also mentioned In the letter, tioned that the various other difficulties they have faced and they expect the R.B.I. to take some [English] 185 Motion 19. coHaps9 BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 186 Initiative in this regard. I am sure, the entire a committee shouM be constituted that will House witi understand the pain and agony of go deep into the whole issue and find out the the depasitors. The Banic had inserted an facts. This is what they say. Further they advertisement biitzi ^ h . George Fernandes] only said that. *0n enquiry the passports were found to be falte'. This is what I said. t had suggested: THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI ‘acOng as a conduit for shell compa MANMOHAN SINGH): And that Is conecL nies to t>ring into the country unac counted money for investment in se {Translation] lected Indian companies, and indulg ing in various sub rosa activities in SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: So. this cluding financing the smuggling of controversy took place, about whk;h the arms and other contrat>and materiar hon. Minister of Finance made a mentton here. Thus, many such allegations were [Tianslatlon] levelled against the company in the after- math of the controversy...(Intenvpttons) SHRIDIGVUAYASINGH:Ourot^ion is only to the last two activities mentioned. ^ngOsh] SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Didnl Some of the emptoyees were detained you say or not that there is nothing objec under the COFEPOSA Act tionable in these activities? You have no objection to the activities mentioned in the P ’ranslatlon] first paragraph. It is a fact that the banl( has been acting as a conduit for ‘shell Compa The hon. Minister of Finance has pre nies' to bring into the country unaccounted sented some figures here. In that raid itself, money and indulging in Sub rosa activities. U.S. Dollars worth Rs. 1,32,000 and Rs. I was glad to learn that you have no objection 17,00,057 were seized. We have informed to these charges. Regarding the raid con the Rnance Minister about it and we believe ducted in 1986, the hon.Ministerof Finance that the amount seized during the raki was has mentioned here that: their earning of a single day and the com pany has been indulging In these activities tEngBshJ throughout the year. They made fake pass BCCi was involved In a controversy In ports, got dummy tickets issued and si 1986 when investigations by the Enforce phoned off $ 500. This company made $ 2.5 ment Directorate revealed that the banlcwas crores... {Interruptions) releasing foreign exchange against foreign travel scheme to travel agents without veri [English] fying the signatures of those who have travelled.*, etc. With the result that a sub SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: All this is stantial amount of foreign exchange was absolutely unsubstantiated. (Intonrt^tons) released on the strength of the forms bear SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: It is a mere ing forged and fake signature.” ftotion thriller. The hon. Membershouldtake up writing fk:tk>n thriHers. He will do well [Transuaion] [Translation] Shri DigvQaya Singh has sakJ in the House that it is not true that all this money was collected for Haj. (kiterrvfOons) You may please give the facts ...{Inter- oipt/ons) ^ n g m j SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: If you SHRI DK3VUAYA SINGH (Ri^garh): I have the facts, please give them to us. 189 Motion m. ceOspse BHADRA 23, ^913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 190 Wha tever information we ttave wttti us we informatton If he has any ...(lntemifitk>ns) will give to you. t thinit the BCCI scandal is being discussed In as many as 70 countries SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI: Bad associa of the world. The BCCI scandal is t)eing tion bad name. investigated by all the countries of the world except those countries where there Is dicta SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. torship and where cult of violence prevails. Speaker, Sir, the problem Is that six offk»rs BCCI case is also under investigation In our of the bank were apprehended. It was done country too. However, the ruling party says underthe COFEPOSA. One among them Is that it is totally concerted and a fiction. It is absconding and the rest have been placed a disinformation, what they say. An attempt under detentton. {Intenvptlonsy* to protect the BCCI is t>eing made. The entire world is making the affairs of this banic [English] [nisA\c...(lnterrupttom) I could not follow it MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Femandes, how ...(MBrrupttons) can you say that the former Prime Minister has onJersd their release? [English] (Intemiptions) SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: The inquiry SHRI OtGVUAYA SINGH: Sir, on the can be held only aftercertainfactsaregiven. floor of the House Iwantedtoraisean Issue. If the hon. Member has any facts, he should I had given in writing to the hon. Speaker bring them fotward. about certain people who have been let off under COFEPOSA wrhen Shri V.P. Singh SHRI NIRMAL KANTi CHATTERJEE: was the Finance Minister. I had submitted After all the facts are known the inquiry the relevant document and the files. I have should start. That Is his submission. not yet been allowed to raise it SHRI DIGVUAYASINQH: Sir. it Is abso Sir, if the hon. Member, Shri Femandes, lutely correct that the inquiry shouki be hekJ has got a record, he shouki submit it Only by the RBI. The Finance Ministry can hokf it then, he shouki make accusatton... (Inter- (Intenuptions) n/pUons) MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sure the Finance MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Femandes, you Minister is taking a serious note of all that have made a statement that the former you are saying. Prime Minister released them. Was It on record somewhere? Was It purely your con SHRIGEORGE FERNAI«)ES:Slr. he is jecture? absolutely competent to rsply ....(intenup- SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: Mr. Chair Vans) man, this is totally unsubstantiated thing that Mr. Femandes hassakl...(/!ntefrupffofls) MR. CHAIRMAN: Kindly do not intenupt him. MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down when I am on my legs. [Translation] (Merruptkms) SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: All right, lean understand why you are worried... Why MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Femandes, I am sure you will agree with me that it is quite not are you interr^>tlng me? Please M me correct to make an unsulistantiated allega make my point. When the Minister of Fi tion unless you have got something, by nance will give tho reply, he shouki place the whksh you can authenticate it ‘ Expunged as ordered by the Chair. 191 Motion m. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 ofB.C.C.1. 192 SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Sir. I AN HON. MEMBER: This is a serious stand by my allegation...(/nfem/pr/ons) Sir, matter. (Interruptions) Mr. Digvijaya Singh’s point is that he has given in writing to the Speal SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Yes, I have said that and I stand by that. (Interruptions) SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Very MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do not talk good. Ithanit my friend, Shri Digvijaya Singh, when I am on my feet. If any allegations have for confirming it. Shri Rajiv Gandhi was his to be levelled against any sitting Member or own Finance Minister when he ordered the any ex-Member of former Prime Minister, reiease of these of time. Secondly, if you liavefalledtoobiect (Merruptkms) at that particular point of time and you are o t ^ n g now, then I would say that record MR. CHAIRMAN: But, what I can say is, can be examined by the hon. Speaker and we should talce notice of what is happening If there is anything ot^ectlonabie, ithlnltthe at the present nmment. Speaiwrwouldceitainlyexpungethem. TTiat (MenvpUons) Is the only ruling that I can give at this s ti^ . (Interruptions) P ’ranslatlon} [TranslatlonJ SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Mr. Chair man, Sir that is why I am saying thdt when SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Mr. Chair Mallniji was In the chair...(lnterruptlons) man, Sir, I am on a point of order. (Mfem/p- [EngBsh] [Eng^h] SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTACHARYA (Jadavpur): Whatever remarks had been SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL made against whicheverfomier Prime Min (Chandigarh): If he has any document in his ister - whether it is Shri V. P. Singh - let them possession, why is itthat he is not raproduc- be expunged. ing it in the House now? (Intemjptions) SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivandrum): Sir. I MR. CHAIRMAN: Kindly do not interrupt. am on a point of order. I have aslwd Shri Ram Vilas Paswan to spealt. SHRIJAGDISHTYTLER:Wher8arethe documents? P'ranslatlon} (Interrufrtlons) SHRI RAM VIIJVS PASWAN: I want only this much from you that your ruling should MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sorry. This niling be equally appiicabie to all the discussions wouki have no meaning to have blanket held .^re and all the allegations made by erasure of any reference to any person h(^. Members against the former Prime previously. Minister and other Ministers. (Menvfaions) MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. f aswan, I am not SHRI A. CHARLES: Sir, on a point of empowered to give blariket orders that all order please. the allegations that were levelled against any Prime Minister who were In power dur MR. CHAIRMAN: One at a time. I have ing last five years should be expunged. asked Shri Pawan Kumar Bansal to speak. Let him speak. 8HRIRAMVILASPASWAN: Risnotthe (tntenuptkms) question of last five years but it is a case of very recent past. (Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Shri BansaL lEngKsh] SHRI A. CHARLES: *(bttonvptlomll MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not Icnow. There MR. CHAIRMAN: I woukJ request him rnay have been substanUaled allegations not to say anything against the Chairperson against some former Prime Ministers. who was in the Chair at that particular time. * Not recorded. 195 Motbn n. coBapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.L 196 Kindly haw this much respect forthe Chair erased from the record. that H Shrimatl MaUni Bhattachaiy«4i or ABC or anylxxly Is In the Chair, Idndly don't cast (kaem^hns) any aspersions. Nothing iBganflng Shrlmati MaNnl Bhattacharya win go on record. MR. CHAIRMAN: lean oniygive a Ruling on what is within my knowlec^. What has (kaenuptfons) happened In front of me, I can give a Ruling on that. Mr. Ram Vilas Paswan, on anything SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL that happened last year or a year before, I (Chandigarh); Sir, nny sul)mission Is that cannot give a Ruling. there is abasle difference tietween the tenor of what Shri Digvijaya Singh has said and SHRI RAM VIUVS PASWAN: That what Shri George Fernandes has said. Ail mean’s that the points made by Shri DigvQay that Shri Oigvijaya Singh said was in refer Singh will go on record. (Interruptions) ence to the time when certain incidents tool( place when Shrf V. P. Singh was the Finance [English] Minister, while Shri Fernandes made un- sut)6lantiated and wHd allegations. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyway, I have given my Ruling. I cannot give any blanket lulling. MR.CHAIRMAN:Shri DigvijayaSinghis very much here. Whatever he wants to say, (kaerrupUons) he can say tt. [Translallon] (koernvfttons) SHRI RAM VIUVS PASWAN: Before MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fernandes, would George Femandes Shri Digvyay Sfaigh had you Ice to continue your speech? also referred to Shri V. P. Singh by name that he was with the National Front and it wW SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL: Shri go on record. But when he said that Shri V. Fernandes levelled a baseless allegation. P. Singh was the Finance Minister when he (Intemjptlons) was the Prime Minister, It will not go on record, {kitemvotons) P'ranslallonJ MR. CHAIRMAN:lhavegh«n my Ruling SHRI RAM VIUVS PASWAN: Mr. Chair on this also. If Shri Digvl]ay Singh has lev- man, Sir, what is your decision since I have elied an unsubstantial ail^ation on anyone also raised this point in the House. and if the hon. Shaker while examining the record conskJere tt obijectkMiabie he wM MR. CHAIRMAN: I have already given erase IL It was notsaM In my presence. It Is my Ruling In response to your point of order. the hon. Speaker, who ArUi examine tt. I have I have already said that I do not have the already given this Ruling. authority to give blanitet RuHng to expunge the names of aB the former Prime Ministers (kt^muptkm) which have come. I cannot give any such Ruling. But the Ruling that I have Just given that whatever Mr. Geoige Femandes has lEngBsh] said lEngksh] MR. CHAIRMAN: The otherthing I want to say Is that there was no time alotted for About the former Prime Minister will be thisdiscusston. I wouMll^totakethesense 197 Motion ro. collapse BHADRA 23.1913 {SAM) of B.C.C.L 198 of the House about this. Jaswant Singh and other Members for an- otheronehourmore. But preferably itshouki THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE be finished today. MINISTRY OF STEEL (SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV): We are ready to sit late. Let Shri Somnath chatterjeeshrl somnath It be finished today. chatterjee: Sir. he is a crusader against corruption and we hope he will nottry tostlfle MR. CHAIRMAN: It is up to the House, this discusston. whatever time you want to give for this. (Intem^lons) SmiSONTOSHMOHANDEV:Wewant to finish it today. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir. the Congress Party wants to stfto this dis (kitarrufMons) cussion. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have already taken, SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: You I think, about three-and-a-half hours on this speak for whatever time you want and we subject. Woukl you like to suggest some will listen to yourspeech. But do not say that time, Mr. Jaswant Singhji? the Congress Party wants to stifto the dls cusston. SHRI JASWANT SINGH (Chlttorgarh): Mr. Chairman. Sir, when the time was fixed MR. CHAIRMAN: I must say that Shri tor this discussion... Sontosh Mohan Dev is very magnanimous. So, let us fix the time. According to Shri MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no time fixed. Jaswant Singh, it comes to 7.30 p.m. and therefore. I think, we can sit upto 8.00 p.ra SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Sir. a discus- ston took place both In the Business Advi (Intenvfriions) sory Committee as also with the Hon'bie Speaker. It was decided that the dlscusston SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL on my motton woukl start today at One (Chandigarh): Sir, kindiyfix the time for each o'Ck)dc The anticipation was that the hon. speaker also, because there are many Mem Finance Minister's reply to the Finance Bill bers who want to speak. woukjoommenceat 11 a.m. andendbyOne o'clock and this discussion wouM start at (MenuptUm) One o’clock and go on till about 4.30 p.m. In [Translatton} that sense by lmplk»tk>n, three-and-a-half hours have been allocated. But this dlscus DR. LAXMINARAYAN PANDEYA ston has started only at Four o'Clock. (Mandsaur): Mr. Chairman, Sir, it shouM be MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, It started at Four nrade clear that no business other than o’Ctock. That means, another one hour Is BCCI will be taken up today. left. MR. CHAIRMAN: In that case, when will (kitBnuptlons) the remaining business be taken up. SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Mr. DR. LAXMINARAYAN PANDEYA: Mr. Chairman. Sir. the hon. Parliamentary Af Chairman, Sir. they wilt be taken up on fairs M ini^r has gone somewhere and Monday. before going he sakl, as Shri Jaswant Singh has very rightly pointed out, that this dlscus MR. CHAIRMAN: The toaders of aH par ston Is for three house and If necessary, it ties have unanimously agreed in the Busi can be extended with the consent of Shri ness Advisory Commttteethat4hout8 woukl 199 Motion n. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 ofaaC./. 200 be altt>tted for discussion to this subject. tions between the State Bank and B.C.C.I in the records of Secret Department which lEngSshJ was censured by the British Govemment More than that, we want aclarification on the I think for Monday and Tuesday the connecttons between the Syndk»te Bank business is fulL and the B.C.C.I. Among the nationalised banks of India the position of Syndicate [Tianslailon} Bank is most dismal; If any other bank Is more skd« than this Bank, the Minister of Since it has started at 4 P.M. iet us have Finance should let the House know... I oompieted by 8.00 or 8.30 P.M. [English] (Intem^ons) MR. CHAIRIt4AN: That is beshJes the lEngtsh] point. That is not the matter under discus sion. MR. CHAIR»4AN: We are unnecessarily wasting the time of the House. Now, Shri SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: That is what Oeoige Fernandes can continue his speech. they are discussing. The BCCI does not owe Mr. Fernandes, you have brought out so to 'lyndtoate Bank a penny. It has been many points. Let them chew over those given in writing. points. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think, that is quite [Traslatlon] irrelevant to the subject in hand. [Translation] SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. Chairman. Sir. firstly, I would tli rea d both the itBms...(kttBrruptk>ns) The SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: He has not syndicate Bank suffered a loss of about 200 pleaded for any thing for the Congress million dollars due to the B.C.C.1... (IntBnvp- Party, (intenvptions) he has made this Itoos) It could be more or less but my deservatton keeping In view the interest of estimate is 200 million dollars. the country. SHRIJAGDISHTYTLER:Good heading SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I can tomorrow. understand the anxiety of the hon. Finance Minister. He, while concluding his speech on SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: The the Rnance Bill, commented on the condi B.C.C. I functioned as a Corporation banit in tion of the Financial institutions of the coun the Syndicafe Bank. I have got the balance try. I think he Is very much wonied about sheets of Syndicate Bank. This is the bal their condition, though there are a few who ance sheet of 1990-91. bother for such thing. I do not deny that aN our Finance Ministers had been wonied about the financial organisations. But I am JEngMshJ not ready to accept that due conskieration was given to the real conditton of our Banks. SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: What Is it we Even if now discussion regarding their con are discussing? ditions is stopped, we woukJ only allow the conditions togofrom bad to worse. Even the SHRIGEORGEFERNANDES:lam rais Public Accounts Committee Is not altowedto ing the question of BCCI and Indian banks Inspect the accounts of the Banks. The linkages. I do not remember the number of C.A.G. of the Defence can inspect the ac branches It has In India. It could Im 900 or counts of the Defence Ministry but Bankere 1000. There was a time when Syndicate are so super human...(//>(s/nipfto/is) Bank was consktored to be the best bank in the country. Shri T. A. Pai who happened to [EngOsh] be the Minister of Railways, Industry and Petroleum In their Government nourished SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: I do not this bank from its early stage. It was a know which particular transactton the hon. wonderful bank and was the fastest devel Member is refening to But according to the oping Bank In India but today it Is on the Information that is available with me. there Is threshoki of bankruptcy. no basis for this allegation. (kilBmptlons) I will also assure him and this country also [English! that all these things wHI be Investigated again. SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: Mr. Chair man, I think, I wouki urge you to restrain hon. (kttemptions) Members, when they level such wiki charges against the Indian banking system. Previ MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not know whether ous time. In his earlier interventton, Mr. he has got the right balance sheet or not. If Jaswant Singh made similar allegattons he is quoting from the balance sheet of the against the financial Institutions as well as bank. I cannot stop that. ag.ainst the Reserve Bank. I must submit to you. Sir, with ail sincerity that these things [Translatkm} can and will do Inreparable damage to this country’s financial reputation. That must be SHRIRABIRAY(KendrapaFa):Mr.Chair- borne in mind by the hon. Members while ' nen, Sir. Iwas llsteningto the entire discus- levelling such wiki charges. {Intem^ions/^ ston. The hon. finance Minister has inter vened twice during this discusston. Sir. I [Translation] wouM llw to know your opinton about that 203 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.I. 204 He, during his inteivention, has recnatked the position. If you do not go by that, then that the entire Indian Banking system has there is no meaning of having any meeting been adversely affected due to loan meias. of the Business Advisory Committee; there Does he know that his such remarks may Is no meaning in arriving at any understand brbig down the credltedbllity of our Banking ing whatsoever. system in the workl? He may not agree with the facts and dates given ^ Shrt George SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: What Fernandes. Fbrthat, he may say only that he are you talking? I think the hon. Minister's does not agree with him. (tntom^jUons) intentton is to close the debate now In 15 minutes’ time. [En gm ] SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARA MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sure he Is taking MANGALAM: I am not saying to dose the serious note of what you say and he will give debate. I did not say that. adequate reply. SHRi SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: If that (kitenvpUons) is his intention, let us go out. H you want to ctose the debate at 7 O'clock, why did not MR. CHAIRMAN: Shrl George the Chair regulate the time? {htarruptions) Fernandes, I must nowaskyoutoctose your speech. If you allow one Memberto speakfor one hour, the Chair shouki have regulated it SHRi GEORGE FERNANDES: Not)ody (interruptions) And you say that BCCIshouW is letting me speak. Please altow me to not be allowed to be discussed, (htemip- speak lor some time Vans) MR. CHAIRMAN: In the Business Advi SHRi MUKUL BAU But i think, it is necessary to know how much It is of no use. It was not agreed to by us to time a Member shoukt speak. There was a take all the bus\ness...lhtBm^atons) tong discusston. a meeting t>etween the leaders of all the parties and the Business [TranslatlonJ Advisory Committee together where busi ness of the House was sorted out It was SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARA> deckled that two other important matters - MANGALAM:ltisverybad. one on the Jammu and Kashmir and the other one on the Voluntary Deposit Scheme [EngUshJ •shouldbecompletedtoday. n Is afterdoing this exercise that we extended the sitting by In the morning two hours were spent one more day. With great diffteuity, the Lok raising matters during Zero Hour. It was the Sabha Secretariat accommodated us by specif k: understanding among ail the parties one more day. Today whether you finish the that it shoukl not happen. That understand business at 7 o'clock, or 8 o’dock or 9 ing was vtolated. By whom? I woukl not like o'clock is not the issue. The issue really is we to rope in anyone...(/ntem/pf/ons) must complete the work that we have on our MR. CHAIRMAN: Ithink. we are wasting agenda today. That is my view. {Intenvp- the time like this. Now let us get on to work. I will request all sections of the House to cooperate with the Chair so that ail this CHAIRMAN: There is no further business is completed today. If you want to discussion on this topk:. Kindly sit down. I bum the mid-night oil, we are prepared to am not allowing any nwre discussion on this bum it. But kindly let us get on to the topk:. business, (Mam^lons) (htorrupOons) DR. UVXMINARAYAN PANDEYA: He [Translationsl has wrongly quoted. SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN (Rosere): MR. CHAIRMAN: Were you there In the Is there any an^ngement fordinnertoday? BUSINESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE. What is its arrangement if we have to sit upto 12 'o' Clock. ( /ntrruptibns) [rmnsMkmJ ^ng«sh] DR. LAXMINARAYAN PANDEYA: Yes Sir, that day, we had deckled to hokJ this MR. CHAIRMAN: George Sahib, I know discusston from 1 to 4 o' Ctock. Thereafter, your trend of thought Is broken a number of the issue of Jammu-Kashmir was to be times. But I hope you will be able to complete taken which was to be^concluded by 5.30 your speech in five minutes because of your p.rti...(lnterruption8) Half an hourafterthat, capabillties as an orator. the Voluntary Deposit scheme was to be taken up. There on we agreed to sit little (MmrrupSons) more If it was necessary. That meant that we couW sit half-an-hour more i.e. upto 6.30 SHRIGEORQE FERNANDES: Only the p.m. We never meant that we might stt upto time that has been aitotted to me is being 9,10,11 or 12 pm. (Interruptions) Please broken. (MorrupOons) listen to it fully. Since, the B.C.C.I. issue was taken up late, we may sit a little longer. UtmtMOon] Hence, t shouU be finished upto 7.30 p.m. Otiier business shouU not be taken today. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I woukJ like to know 207 iktotfon re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 208 abo ut the Syndicate Bank from the hon. [Translation] Minister of Rnance. In this context, I would SHRIGEORGE FERNANDES: We shall. like to put forth two things as It has been not go Into detail regarding that I wouM like menttoned here. I have much praise forthis to say only this that the chairman of that Bank'spast. The balance-sheet of that Bank company, you have just mentioned, met me for 31.3.91, perhaps was not seen the hon. yesterday and gave me these two docu Rnance Minister. In ft, there has been ad ments. vance of Rs. 3,600 crores. There is over seas advance of Rs. 579,12,96,891 out of [English] this total 3600crore. In London, there is only^ one branch of this overseas bank, whk;h is One Is a background note on NRI Invest the operational centre between the B.C.C.I. ments In Reliance Industries and the allega and the branches of India. tions pertaining to the year 1982-83. [Translation] [English] You have seen how lengthy It Is? One sixth of the advances of a national ised bank, which is the con’esponding bank SHRIDIGVUAYSINGH(Rajgarh):lhave of the BCCI, are in London. not got any. According to Balance Sheet, notesform- [English] Ing part of the Account No. 20 - reconciliation of accounts In other banks, including foreign I have no contacts with the BCCI. banks, agencies, and financial institutions are in arrears. MR. CHAIRMAN: Kindly do not intenupt. [Tianslaiion] [Translation] I wouM like to know about the details of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: This the funds and Its use. What relation is there docunwnt contains the details of the three between our Banks and ...(Interruptions) reports of their Enforcement Branch. It has been mentioned In it that Rs. 22 crores SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: with the provktodbytheeleven companies of the Isle B.C.C.L {interniptions) of Man was brought to India through the B.C.C.I. and the Syndicate Bank and I think SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I would the Middle East Bank played the roles of fflce to know the relationship between the rrtddlemen as in those days, no branch of Syndicate Bank and B.C.C.L from the hon. the B.C.C.I. was operating In Bombay. The Minister of Finance...(Aife/ru|pfft)/)s) inquiry regarding all this was made. I wouM like to put here three things of that inquiry Mr. Chairman, Sir, the non. Memberwho because other thlng...(//)tomftfA>/)S) delivered his speech prior to me charged that a corporate war was being discussed [English] here. We wouM not lice to go into details of all about that SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: Is It again from Shri Bhurelal’s report. JEngBshJ MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Fernandes, you [Translation] wilt never get to the end of this. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: It is the 209 Motion rs. collapse BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 210 rep ort of your government. The last para tBrrupOons) graph of the inquiry-report contains, SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: Yes, I lEngSshJ am officially authorised. You are not offi cially authorised.. {htenupUons) "Another point that needs to be care fully examined In details is the source SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Iwant of funds provided by BGCI, London to protest. . (interrupttons) I protest very and EAB Hamburg, through the Co strongly.. {IntenupUons) lombo branch for purchase of shares of Reliance, on behalf of Overseas SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: This House shouM not become a monopoly of firms. Enquires may disclose the real persons, who had given the letter of one person. Comfortof personalguaranteeto EAB of BCCIfortheloan. if detailedenquir- SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Sir, ies are made with the BCCI, London, you should give me protectkm. It may throw light as to how funds were received by BCCI, London for remit tance to India for the above purpose SHRIGHULAMNABIAZAD:Wehave and whom the interest/dividend and other Ment>ers of Parliament who are to sale proceeds of debentures received speak. The House shouM not become a from India on account of the overseas monopoly of an indivklual.. (Interruptions) companies were actually disbursed. Yesterday, you spoke for 1 1/2 hours. To Such an enquirie may indicate the real day, you also spoke. persons, behind the transactions*. (Intemptions) THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMEN TARY AFFAIRS (SHRI GHULAM NABI MR. CHAIRMAN: No interruption A2A0): Sir, is the Hon. Membersp^aking on please. I would request Mr. Geoi^e behalf of the whole Opposition or on behalf Fernandes to wind up in another two; min of the whole House? {titemptkms) There utes’ time. are so many other Members who have to speak. (Jntom^fUons). (Iittom^lons) Are you yfekiing-the whole Opposi tion? MR. CHAIRMAN: Please don’t SHRI K.P. REDDAIAH YADAV: Yes. interrupt. (7/>tein(p(to/75) MR. CHAIRMAN: The more you. {Inter- SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: If the niptlons) interrupt, the k>nger he will take. whole Opposltton Is yiekilng, then it is all Mr. Geoige Fernandes, kindly wind up in right.. (Intemjpttons) I do not think that you another two minutes. have been authorised by the House to say so.(Ai«sfn49ffo/is) [Tianslatton] SHRI K. P. REDDAIAH YADAV: You are also not authorised by the House.. {In- SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. 211 Motion ra. coBapao SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.L 212 Cha irman, SIrourtwo minutes is counted as SHRIGHULAMNABIAZAO:Outotthree 20 minutes. hours allotted. If one Memtwr speaks for 1 hour and IS minutes. I think, I am right in saying what I have sakl.(lntemjptk>n) IBigBsh] SHRI GEORGE FERI4ANDES: Thera Is MR. CHAIRMAN: iknowthat there were a limit to this kind of ** (Interruptton) What do brtermptions.. (ka»rrupttont(i you mean that I have taken 11/2 hours. [T/anslatlon} (kiterruptlons) SHRI MUKUL BALKRISHAN VASNIK: MR. CHAIRMAN : The word ** wHI be Please do not take his five minutes as fifty expunged. minutes. (IntenvpOons) MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. George {TnmOatton] Fernandes, with such a sentor Memt)er like you. Ifeelent)arrassed inchecking youtime and again. I wouM request you not to make SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: As you my position embarrassing. You please con have mentioned about the time of Shrl clude in two minutes. Geoige Fernandes. Please mentton the same about Shri DIgvlJay Singh also. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Sir. I wiO not speak at aO. (Intemipttons) If that Is m » s h ] your directton, then I wHI not speak. MR. CHAIRMAN : I will tell you all tim (MempUons) ings. kindly Hsten. MR. CHAIRMAN: You please con clude. (MtempUons) SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I am MR. CHAIRMAN: Pleasedontintorrupt submitting that I am not speaking. (Intenvp- Mr. Jaswant Singh started at 1600 and ttons) flnlBhedat 1700. Mr. DigvlJayaSingh started at 1700andflnlshed at1745and Mr. Geoige SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: Sir, I FMnandes started at 1745. woukl i MR. CHAIRMAN: Iknowthat them were MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. George totoflntenuptkHis. Fwnandes, come on. ** Expunged as ordered by the Chair. 213 Motion f9. coKaps9 BHA0RA23,1913(S4/C4) of B.C.C.L 214 SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; No, Sir, SHRI SRIKANTA JENA; Why are you I am not speaking. not telling them not to intenrupt? [Internjp- f/ons] SHRI SRIKANTA JENA: Sir. how many times the interruptions have come from the (Intenvptions) reasury t>enches? (IntBirupttons) If this is the attitude of the Chair and if he is dictated [Translation] by the Parliamentary Affairs Minister,the nwewill withdraw, the entire party will with SHRIASHOKANANDRAODESHMl^H draw from thedebate. [Interruptions] (Part>hanl): Mr. Chairman, Sir, there were much intenuptions so we may be given a [Translation] little more time. MR. CHAIRMAN; There is nothing iiite MR. CHAIRMAN: I am admitting this. I this. am saying. [EngBsh] [EngUsh] I have been trying to regulate the debate That Mr. Fernandes was frequently in- with ail the fairness at my command ten'upted. But it is my judgment also that In spite of interruptions, Mr. Femandes has (hterruptlons) taken almost 45 minutes. And I think that Is more than any Membersshare in the house. MR. CHAIRMAN; Mr. Jena, kindly do not intenrupt. Please sit down when I am on (Interruptions) my feet. MR. CHAIRMAN : I wiU request Mr. (Interruptions) George Femandes once again ...... SHRI SRIKANTA JENA; You control (Interruptions) them also. Is this the way to%onduct the House? [Trartslatlon] (Intenvptions) You are waiship time un intemipting the speech. MR. CHAIRMAN; Honorable gentlemen, I have been trying to regulate the debate [Eng^ti] withallthefaimessatmycommand. lagree that Mr. Fernandes was frequently inter Therefore, I will request Mr. George rupted. Femandes once again not to take unt>rage at any ruling given by the Chair and kindly [Translation] conclude his debate In two minutes time. That is all my request MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jena you speak I will sit-down. (Intem^ons) (Interruptions) [Translation] lEngOsh] SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Mr. Chairman, Sir, I regretthat you hadto sayso MR. CHAIRMAN: If you Insist, then you manythings. We know that you conduct the kindly speak. I will sit down, you canry on. House very well. You adopt a non-partain (M e n tion s) attitude towards everyone while you are in 215 Motion ra. ooOapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 216 ^h . Oeoige Fernandes] Chairman and Managing Director of Reliance Industries Ltd. this Chair, so please do not think that I have any against you on your decision. There is 2. Mr.VlnodAmbani. no such thing. Company Secretary of Relianoe Industries Ud. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you 3. Mr. C.H. Chowksi. (Mem^kms) One of the Directors of Prabhat Fabrics Private Ltd. Staliton Pri SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I could vate Ud. not speak because of the intenuptions. •a close friend of Mr. Dhirut>hal Thereafter, when I was asked to conclude Ambani of Reliance Industries Ltd. within two minutes only, which was not possit>le, so I took my seat 4. Mr. Pankaj Ishwarlal kapadia Share Broker Mr. Chairman, Sir, I woukJ like to con clude after making two main points. 5. Mr. D. Chatuivedi, Chartered Ac countant Mr. Chairman, Sir,. I would like to know from the Hon. Minister that there are three 7. Share hoklers of Companies of isle reports of the inquiry conducted by the of Man, l.e., Department of Enforcement In 1986 and in the last report, it was suggested that an I) Mr.KrishnakantShahandhis inquiry against the persons menttoned In family members of UK that report shouM be heki underthe Foreign Exchange Regulatton Act. lean give youthe II) Mr.U.C.KhamaniofDJbouti names of these pereons in writing or If you 110 Mr. Prafui Shah of USA permit me, I can read their names here. It had been suggested that they must be 8. Mr. P.S.W. Henwood, intenogated Imnediately. Cortetituted attorney of Overseas Companies of Isle of Man. [English] [Translation] List of suspected persons in India and abroad Involved in purchase of ‘Reliance Was it deckled to conduct an inquiry Shares’ by the non-Resktent Indian Compa against them and sewe a notkie to them nies of Isle of man. under foreign Exchange Regulation Act, because the money was taken out of the [Transiation] country by Reliance and brought through it was suggested that those persons ‘Padiyar* through B.C.C.L In the country. must be intenogated. Idonotwantto waste After alleging all these it was deckled to time in reading their names. {htarrupHons) conduct an inquiry. Has the inquiry been conducted? If so, the facts thereof? What AN HON. MEMBER: Please read their action has taken or proposed to betaken by names. the Government in this regard? This is one of my questions. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Here is their names:- My second question Is not to spare Corporate take-over as I have asked In My tEngSshJ amendment. I don't want to oonseai that Larsen and Touifoo are working for our 1. Mr.DhliubhalAmbanl. 217 Motion n. cottapse BHADRA 23,1913 {SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 218 Nuclear plants. ArrtbanI Company had taken L.I.C. in writing that they had no tinrte to over Larsen and Tourtw three and a half check all these proxies as the meeting has years back. The financial Institutions run by since been fixed for 16th and for lack of full the Govemnwnt of India, Life Insurance anangements they will not allow them of Corporation rusticated the elected member conduct an inquiry. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want of Ambani family by convening the very first to present before the House the copies of and special meeting of the company. Why the documents submitted to the Bombay they were rusticated? was there any rea high Court. Why the money of LLC. and son? Has that reason been removed now? Indian Banks is being smuggled out with the Secondly, I shall not explain the works done connivance of foreign banks and smug by L & Tforthe defense department of India glers? I have been the Union Minister of and in other fiekls particularly in the field of Industry. Mr. Digvijay singh, perhaps you do atomto power, as it is considered to be top not know that the company was black listed secret But the hon. Finance Minister knows by me in the capacity of being a Minister of It. If he desiriss, we can disclose that. Would Industry. One sentence of the owner of the you like to hand over this company in the company made me to black list it and that hands of such high of offtoials of the Reli sentence was, [English] Any poiittoian is ance, and to its owner, Shri Padiyar, Who purchasable as long as you are prepared to was directly linked with smuggling out the pay the right price.* only on this one sen money from foreign countries and who was tence I black listed it justto tell him that there transacting the business of B.C.C.I. from were politicians who did not have a price.* London.. You are yourself coming to the point and I shall not quote Indian Express of today. But is It not true ...... (Interrupttons) [Translation] [English] An affidavit has been filed in Bombay High Court today[interruptions] The former SHRI ANBARASU ERA: Sir, he is using Chairman of Larsen and Toubro has com theforumforwrong purposes. This is notthe plained in writing that it is being tried to take way to discuss things. Why shoukl they use over the company by forging his‘signature this foaim for fighting the wars of Nusii and as well as the signature of his family Wadia and Ambani? I object to this. members. I want to lay on the table of the House duly authenticated by me. The for gery which is going on and according to [Translation] which the business of the company is t>eing transacted I do not want the Government of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : What India to link itself with any of its acts. The were the grounds on which L.I.C. had given hon. Finance Minister Shoukl reply to all the a notice to postpone the meeting of the questions. I conclude my speech with these Company scheduled for 26th August. I will words. conclude after asking my last question. Is it not a fact that L.I.C. had given a notice to [English] postpone the meeting to some otherdate so that the inquiiy on proxies could be com SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, if pleted which wouk) not be done earlier for you object to mytaking k>ng time, please ask lack of time. Had L.LC. not written this letter them not to interrupt me. on 26th August and the meeting was post- ppned. Thereafter, when the meeting was SHRI ANBARASU ERA; Do notbethe scheduled to be heki on 16th August, had spokesman of Nusii Wadia. LI.C. not written to the Company that they could not have the time to conduct the SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE; If I am Inquiry? Mr. Speaker, Sir. Whetherthe Sec a spokesman of Ambani, you will be very retary of the Company had not informed happy. Sir, I do not wish to be a spokesman of anyone, lean understand....[lnterruptk>ns] 219 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.L 220 Sir. I can understand their nervousness. this is a bank whksh has been Indulging in And, If the Finance Minister does not misun bribery, conruptton, drug trafficking, money derstand me, I am not making any personal laundering. A branch of this very bank is now reference to anyliody, I am not reminded of being operated in India. So far as the United a saying, *Chor Ka Dari Mein TInka'. No, States Is concemed, there Is an investiga reference to you. Sir. tion going on. Kindly see the seriousness of It. Even It Is sakJ by Senator John Keny • I am MR. CHAIRMAN: There are two orthree quoting from Sunday that In India money dariwalas. Whom you are refenlng to? laundering rackets Involving the BCCI and akls to assassinate Indian Leader Rsyiv SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: All Gandhi are now under investigation. This dariwalas are excluded but not half dariwalas. was said by a Senator of the United States who is invest^srting into the BCCI’s activi SHRI GULAM NABIAZAD: Somnath Jl, ties. Their allegation is that even they are It is 'Kr and not 'Ka’. connected with Rajiv GandhPs assassina tion. Are you not concemed with it? Is the SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: then. country not concemed with It? I am also It Is his mistaiw because he prompted It concemed with it. It is a tragedy which has wrongly. Iwfallen. I this country. If this Is the activity of this Bank, what shouM be the approach? SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: That is our why shouM the country get an impression complaint. Sir. You always listen to wrong that the Govemment Is trying to stop and friends. stonewall any Investigatton into the matter? therefore, I am requesting this You are not SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Any helping either the banking system in this way, Sir, Because I have to use It often for country or your credibility before the pubik: them, i wilt say it correctly. by giving an impression that this is a holy cow which cannot be touched. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Is a very serious matter. I had thought that It woukl be dis Today, distinctton is made by Shri cussed In a manner which woukt help in Dig vijayaSingh. He is a very amiable person removing distortton from our banking sys but he has been wrongly briefed. He says: tem. That was the real approach, I should *No, the Bombay Branch Is very good, al have thought to be taken In this matter. I am though its parentage Is bad, its association sura, nobody on that skle. In spite of what is bad, the persons who are managing the they feel they cannot openly say that BCCI main BCCI are bad. Therefore no inquiry is not a good bank. can be hekl against jt." We have got a very important informatton from a very very im SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: It Is a not a portant source. Kindly altow me to read this. good bank. We all agree. I would be as brief as possible. I have got umpteen number of materials. The Econo SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: I have mist of London described this Bank as haunt got the ministerlal affirmation. It is a bad not only just for fraudstere, but for drug bank. Now. Sir, the question Is that such njnners money launderettes, tenvrists. spies revelatkms about its activity; not only In India and politicians.* This is not even an Indian but outsMe India also, have come out In description. The Economist of London says Journals. Magazines which are of interna- this and nobody can dispute its status. Mr. tional repute • especially the ones accept Jaswant Singh has quoted from another able to my friends sitting on that skJe Hke The Issue and I am quoting this from the Time Timm, News Week of U.S.A., Economies of magazine of 1st April. 1991 whfeh says: London, they are aH bibles to them and they * Nothing In the history of modem finan are beirig dicuiated all over the worid that cial scandals rivals the unfoMIng saga of the 221 Motion re. collapse BHADRA 23.1913 {SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 222 Ban kof CredltandCommeice International. to do it; and I am sure, probably, that was The twenty billion dollar rogue empire, the one of the reasons why the people hadgiven regulators in 62 countries shut down early their verdict against them, if that is so, what this month inastunninggloisal sweep, never will be the attitude of your Government. Mr. has a single scandal involved so much Finance Minister now? money, so numy nations or so many promi nent people.” Now. whatever permission has been given, I accept it because I have no informa There aiB many otherpassages worth tion to the contrary that only the then Gov quoting but I am not doing it. It has been ernment under Mr. V. P. Singh permitted a published in the Economist that even the regular branch to be opened. If I have under foreign intelligence agencies In England have stood correctly. But. actually, what was been utilising BCCI. I has come out that CIA opened was a representative office with no is absolutely Involved in to operations. [In permission or they were not canylng out terruptions] Mr. Digvijaya Singh, very rightly banking business; it Is an admitted position. agrees with me. I am thank full to him. It That was in 1979. What appeared in 1980 helps nne in not elaborating further. people came to know. I am requesting the hon. Finance Minister to kindly remove our The main charges against BCCI in doubts and very strong susptotons in the cludes defrauding depositors, giving out matter. I am again, with your kind permis* dubious loans to select customers, acting Sion, quoting fromTlnfw magazine. On page as conduit for terrorist activities and CIA 20. It reads as follows: operations and have convenient bani< for comipt rulers of Third world to salt away *The soviet invaston of Afghanistan in their illegal wealth. Thera is a long list of 1979 and the resulting strategy importance accusations of bribery of the central banks of neighboring Pakistan accelerated the of different countries political authorities in growth of B.C.C.I.’s geopoliteal power, and various countries and acting as brokers in its unbridled use of the black notworit. Be various shady deals. cause the U.S. wanted to supply the mujahedin rebels in Afghanistan with Stinger News week says:* CIA’s Director of missiles and other military hardware; it Operations had its own informants woridng needed the full cooperatton of Pakistan. By inside the Bank. The CIA had Intimate knowl the mkJ-1980s, the CIA’s Islamabad opera edge of BCCI’s alleged dealings with tenor- tion was one of the largest U.S. intelligence ists, drug dealers and corrupt Government stations in the worid. *lf B.C.C.I. is such an officials all over the world..* embarrassment to the U.S. that forthright investigations are not being pursued, it has *...... BCCI was aggressively targeted a lot to do with the blind eye the U.S. turned as a golden of Intelligence on a wide varie to the heroin traff teking in Pakistan,* says a ties of illtoit activities.* U.S. intelligence offk»r. An Inquiry is going on In America, an In USA, an ot>|ection is being taken by a inquiry Is now going on In England, but on Senator, by an intelligence officer that the inquiry in India win ever be allowed, this we USA investigating agencies are going slow. cannot understand. Why? TTiey are going stow because CIA has been Invohred in this. BCCI. Therefore, not Our most respected Finance Minis only they are going slow, but the Senators ter has t>een trying to secure a politk»l areattheirthroat, otherlnvestigating agen debating point by saying, well the Janata cies are at theirthroat. Now the Government Party Government allowed It first to conw in. Is feeling a pressure; now the pubik: opin- Very well. Let us assume that they should tons are also there. Therefore, they have to not have done K. it was very wrong of them investigate, continue the investlgatton of 223 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 224 ^ h . Somnalh Chatteijee] request the hon. Finance Minister to an swer, because, the files are not with us. this BCCI in the USA although CIA’s con What prompted the Government to do It, I do nection is coming out not know the reasons. I do not know if the hon. Rnance Minister wouM be gracious Similarly, in England also, t)ecause of enough to disclose to us what prompted the the involvement of secret Service The in then Government to do it, I do not know the vestigations are being delayed by the Bank reasons. I do not know the reasons. I do not of England, that is a grievnce. the Bank of know If the hon. Rnance Minister would be England which is entrusted with the man gracious enough to disclose to us what agement and supervision of all the banking prompted the then government in 1983 to instituttons in that country, why they have give the permission. beengoing slow? Why have they not discov ered all these illegal activities, criminal ac MR. CHAIRMAN: This is in 1984. I tivities? it has been described as a ‘Cocaine thought that the hon. Rnance Minister in his Bank’ because of its large scale dealing in statement said that the file was taken to drugs; it has been described as one of the Chowdhary Charan singh. That must be biggest criminal enterprises in the wortd. earlier. These are not words; these words are used by it, I take it; it is a magazine of people SHRI SOMNATHCHATTERJEE:that generally, who have the credibiifty in the was in 1979, when they only opened— you whole worid about their objective assess are right— only a representative offtoe. This ment of the situation. In 1980, ifthese things is also in the statement of the Rnance had come out, then we wouM not have face Minister, when he sakl, I read for your kind this situation, now, it has been alnmst estab information: lished; I am using the wonj ‘alnx>st’, because I have no proof except what has come out “However, the BCCI was permitted by that BCCI has adefinlte role vis avis funding the Reserve Bank of India to open only a the terrorist who have been smuggling arms representative office in June 1977, permit into Pakistan whnh are being used in Pun ted by the Reserve Bank. Representative offices are not promoted to do banking jab, Kashmir and other places. We are business, but function only as liaison of- fighting with so much concern rightly in this ftoes.’ country about terrorism; the whole country is now concerned about terrorism. Seces- This is his statement. I am reading his slonism and terrorism, they are eating into statement. Therefore, they were not permit the vitals of our country. We cannot hold ted to open a branch.The Bank was not elections in parts of ourcountry although we permittedto open abranch. BCCI, however, want very much to do so. That is happening. pursued its deslrefor establishing branches Innocent people are being murdered Inno in India. The reserve Bank of India issued cent people are being kklnapped. What Is license in February 1983 for opening of one happening in the country? I need not remind branch in Bombay and it commenced op the hon. Members here. Everyone is highly erations with effect from the 31st March concerned. I have no doubt about it. In such 1983. activities BCCPs hands are seen. There fore, shouki we not be extremely cautious, I have some questions to be put, extremely careful and shouki we not revamp because I do not want to test the patience of cur intelligence activities, particularly our the hon. Members In spite of their response economic intelligence activities, to find out now, though temporarily. what has really been happening? SH R IJAG DISH Tm ER : We are appre- In that context when we find that a new elating you. Branch was permitted to come up in 1983, SHRISOMNATHCHATTERJEErThank certainly certain questions arise which I you. Sir, I have no access to flies. But as I 225 Motion m. collapse BHADRA 23.1913 {SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 226 sai d, I have no access to the records. The KALP NATH RAI): Who Is this man? hon. Rnance Minister is one of the distin guished sons of India, we ara very happy, he. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir. In has occupied very high positions In this response to the query of distinguished Cabi country. He was the Reserve Bank Gover net Minister. I give his name- Shri M.M. nor, a very high post. He is now our Finance Naraslmham. Sir. I am not making any Minister. We ara Very happy. allegatk}ns. SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY Sir. I thought the Reserve Bank Gover (Katwa): VVhy? nor shouk) have the last word in the matter of opening of branches because opening of SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: He is a bank is the prerogative of the Reserve an honest man at least. I am happy because Bank. Under the Banking Regulatton Act, he has not so far been polluted to the extent Sir, you ara aware that the Reserve Bank of that he should not t>e there. India has been given specially this role and nobody can arrogate this power. But the SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE: then Rnance Ministervery happily accepted Because, with good Intentions, he would the recommendation of the then Finance lead us to hell. Secretary. And now whether It Is promotton or demotton, I do not know, twfore his SHRIJAGDISHTYTLER: Butthose who sojoum to the Planning Commisston. in have been polluted by our party, you have 1983 he had veiy happily permitted the accepted as ieader8.[lnterruptions] t>ranch to be opened. Sir, this Is very seri ous. Kindly correct me If I am wrong. And I SHRI SOMMATH CHATTERJEE: I am am sure, after you have come, the files have asking the Finance Minister to correct me if not been changed. If the files have been I am wrong, because my infomnatton may be changed earlier. I do not know. wrong. Sir, the point is this. There was proposal I amtold that there is afUe in the Finance to take away from the Reserve Bank of Ministry or the Banking division, wherever it India, its power to decMe upon the issue of is. it is there since 1983. Thethen Additional licenses to t>anks tor opening its branches Secretary, Banking, the name is not here, because they were standing in the way of I do not know, had recommended granting the BCCI opening its branch. But fortu of a lk»nse for opening two branches. But nately, they did not go to that extent. The before he gave that recommendatton the Finance Minister Inten^ened, gave a clear Reserve Bank was not consulted. That is my ance to the BCCI and the BCCI opened Us feiformatkin. And then the governor of the branch. Sir, no good work goes unrewmrded Iteserve Bank of India, the most distin in this country. guished Dr. Manmohan Singh, he had strongly, according to my Infonmation, he Sir I have not to that much informatton as had objected to that and sent a protest note Mr. Fernandes has and he must be having when this proposal came to issue permis- contacts stBI with the Mintotiy. I have not skm for opening of the branch. been there. Then, the file went to the then Finance Is it convctthatthe son of an Income-tax Secretary, now Chairman. Banking Reforms Offlcerwho was dealing with the BCCI, is an Committee, Who favored In favor of BCCI. Off leer in that bank? Is It correct that the son of an Officer of Law Is an Officer In that THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE bank? Is It correct that the son et a former MINISTRY OF POWER AND NON CON Secretary in the then PM’s Office Is an VENTIONAL ENERGY SOURCES (SHRI Officer In that bank? Too much connections. 227 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.L 228 [Sh. Somnath Chattsijee] SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Maybe, I do not know who Is his detractors. K seems. Is It conect that the brother of a Up-tillnow, lhavesomelnfonrnatton. IwHlteii senior officer In the Banking Department you secretly as to who is working against Finance Ministry, is now an Officer In that you In your new Party. I wHI teH you later on. banic and the other brother, who is an Of Be careful ficer, was handling the BCCi file himself... htetrup^ons. Sir, I am quoting from the SUNDAY magazine (25-31 August, 1991 issue): THE MINISTEROFSTATEINTHE MIN ISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS "SUNDAY leams that the Research ANDMINISTER OF STATE INTHE MINIS and Analyses Wing (RAW) had • at TRY OF LAW, JUSTICE AND COMPANY least from 1975 onwards - consist AFFAIRS ( SHRI RANGARAJAN ently opposed the kJea of altowing the KUMARAMANQALAM): No daughter-in- BCCI to operate In Imfia. Time and law? again, the Agency had advised the Cabinet Secretary and high-ranking SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: May politicians not to let the b ^ k in. The be there. If you allow me to quote, we shall intelligence agency's aAyioed was find tt out based on evklence that the then Paki stani owned BCCI was engaged In MR. CHAIRMAN: Are these questions secretly funding the country’s nuclear leading questions? programme*. We are financing the Pakistan’s nuclear SM )I SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, progammel If RAW had been informing the the leading questions are permitted in Par Government offksiais. the Cabinet Secre liament because there is an attempt to stifle. tary, how come that this Bank was alhiwed to open Its branch hers? Is it correct - the Rnanoe Minister can correct me if I am wrong - that a loan of Rs. What Is the positton of this Bank for the 1 lalth pounds through BCCrs Commercial periodfrom 1983to 1991 ? It hasgotthe total Street branch in London was given to afirm, deposits of Rs. 380.93 crores and N.R.L whose proprietor is the son of a high official deposits of Rs. 225 crores. In |ust eight in the Bemidng Department. Ministry of Fi years’peiformance, I wonder, why so many nance? people are making a beeline for the BCCI? There are so many natkMiallsed tumks in Are you not feeUng disturtied If any of Bombay. There are so many - obviously them Is true? If anyone of my information is well-known, Intemattonally acclaimed - for correct, does it not disturb you? eign banks. Why is It that the people are making a beeline for this Bank? Now I would likdto refer tathe magazine, Sunday dated 25-31 St August /Unte/iup- SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARA Ifona] Sir, this magazine is not my supporter. MANGALAM: An unde toiling a nephew to ShriSontosh Mohan Devwlli be kind enough keep his invnoral activities secretl to admit thaL He knows It very wen because SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: H you he plants all sorts of things against make such comments, I wfli become swpi- us__ [kilemjptton^ Sir, he accepts what ckHJSOfyou. ever It is written in Sunday. ThatiswhatK says; ..... [bit»rwptkm^ Sir, it has been said that ail the big business houses - they are not indlvUuals: SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMAR I cannot mentton their names • Apoito Tyres, MANGALAM: Who planted this? Modem Suiting, BailatpurCements,Godre|. 229 Motion re. coUapsa BHADRA 23.1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 230 Crompton Graves etc. have all got advances BCCI, with whteh concem the C.I.A. network of about Rs. 6-8 crores each. I am not almost appears to be established and the making any accusatory reference to the British Secret servfe» is connected wKh Jt, it Syndicate Bank, although we deeply ntiss needs to be looked Into. Investigation is our late lamented Shri Pal who was one of going on in those countries and there are our colleagues here and who was a very reports, and I think there is good basis that, brilliant person; after his death this Syndi the BCCI, was involved in Iran Contra scan cate Bank has been facing problems. K is dal, was acondultforthe performance ofthe sakJ that the Syndicate Bank has a deposit contract In Ntoaragua, BCCI with Its origin in of Rs.80 crores with the BCCI. I woukJ like to Pakistan and strong base there was ck>sely know whether It Is correct ornot.Whyshoukl linked with late Presktent Zia who himself a nationalised bank like Syndicate Bank was found to be the beneftoiary of the CIA. deposit Rs. 80 crores with BCC i? Is It correct So far as the Indian operations are con or not? Please tell us. If It not correct, then cerned, naturally we are more concerned say so, so that the people will know that with Its Indian operations, I have refenredto wrong Infomiatton is being circulated in this whatever Information I have got, I mean. In country. a sense dubious method in which permis- sk>n to open a branch was given, how tts I have notfound, subject to conection by operattons are being carried on, how the my hon. friends, any denial of the serious Indian big business is making a beeline for charges made in Indian joumals like India this, why they are investing soinuchinthat, Today, Sunday, Front-line and foreign maga why natk>nalisedt>anksare investing money zines like Time, News week, Economist etc. in that, for what special benefit that is being given? Well, Mr. Kumaramangalam sakl, AN HON. MEMBER: And Indian Ex nephew sakJ, ‘yes. better service’ ‘ press. What is this seivtoe?This is the catch. In the name of ‘better servtoe’ I am sure that he SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Well, was not asguest of BCCI in Bombay or even alMut Indian Express - where is Shri Digvijaya durkig one of his sojourns abroad until I am Singh? I am leaving out Indian Express sure you were not although it has made a very disquieting disclosure today. Because of the shortage SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARA of time, I am not referring to that. But there MAhKSALAM: Services have many mean are very very disquieting reports. Please do ings. not close your eyes on that. If there is no denial from you of these reports, then what SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Very will the people of this country see and feel? good, services have many many meanings. They mayfeel that th ^ are correct, and that Therefore, servtees which appear in the you have got nothing to say In it. ttot a single record. I can understand, but whereas more press note was Issued. In the Sunday maga important are those services which are ren zine of 25-31 August, 91 issue, it has been dered without record, pnterrupttons]. Jagdish stated that RAW has been waming the agrees. Thank you. He is In Surface Trans Government from 1975. You have not is port So, he knows what Is on surface and sued any rejoinder. Where is the denial what Is underground: when they have saki that intelligence agen- SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: I am not Min desfoundcertain things about the attempted ister Mines. I am still on the surface and in investment in Lucknow and other places? theain Until the hon. Minister made a statement there is no Information, it creates a Htlie SHRISOMNATHCHATTERJEE:Are (fifficulty so far as I am concerned. you hankerung for the Mines Department? I do not wish to take further time of this Therefore, Sir, we are also very nwch House. I only wish to sulHnit that about this concerned because our security questtons 231 Mothn n. o o lh ^ SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.L 232 are in volved In spite of your great admira is gloating overtheirsuccess. You are gloat tion for tiw mailwt econoniy, Mr. finance ing overthe dismemberment of Soviet Rus Minisler. you will not permit CIA to have a sia. But please do not forget that only the field day in our country. I have no doubt Communist Soviet Russia has been our about it. nor even the British Secret Service consistent friend. to have a field day here, to operate from the Indian soil SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARA MANGALAM: We are not gloating. AN HON. MEMBER: Not even KGB.[lntom^toi}S] Sm \ SOMNATHCHATTERJEE: Alright Then, it Is very good. But I hope you would SHRISOMNATH CHATTERJEE: KGB accept this position that it is only the Com you are gloating now. You will understand munist Soviet Russia has been your friend what is the effect of absence of KGB when and has never let you down. CIA win rule you completely. Therefore, Sir, this penetration of CIA and the collusion of SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARA corrupt Third World regimes in furthering MANGALAM: Even the present Russia Is bnpe^ist aims and getting personal ben friendly towante us. efits by dealing in illegal arms transactions, llegal drug transactions and. Sir. in such a SHRt SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: You situation are we not also concerned that our hope so. Let us see what happens. They security may not be affected, that we have have been yoursteadfast friend in this coun no problems about our securi^ Even Mem- try. Your friend Mr. Bush’s country has bere of Parliament have no easy access to repeatedly gone against you and it is the the Parliament House. We have been Soviet Russia which stood by you both stopped. Membere of Parliament are being politicaliy and economically. harassed because of security perceptions in this country. Are we not concerned? Sir. it is Sir. intheeariy days of our country after not that I am saying on behalf of my Patty, independence, when Pandit Jawaharalal not single new thing I have said ttecause I Nehnj was dreaming of new temples, of new have no source of information, lean only get mosques in the form of big factories, that information which some have given me In was the time when your American friends try letter box, some information which is did not come, your German friends did not given hi the usualmethod you Icnow, Balran^i come and only the Soviet Russia which had also knows this, he must be Icnowing this. come to your help and for that matter, the What else Is there? The only thing is. it is my communists Soviet Russia. Therefore, wlh deficient that I have no contact in his the Increase of power of the United States, Ministry. I accept that charge of deficiency, the imperial designs are not Itept secret that i have not been able to get Information Now. they are dictating to every country In from his Ministry. Therefore. I am saying this worid. Can it be believed that the Ameri that this matter has very serious implica can Government does not itnow about the tions from the point of view of our economic activities of CIA m relation to BCCI? Is it independence and our econorniccredbility. posstole to believe? therefore, have we not our economic faimess and economic ac- got to be extremely careful and cautious? oepiablity and also It has got security impll- You have to find out Its nexus with the BCCI oations for our country. Theiwfore. we must, and do not treat the BCCI, Bombay, as a at an costs, slop the penetration of Intelll- separate entity. It has been used tor the gence agencies of foreign countries into the purpose of money laundering and also for upperechelons of our Indian establishments the purpose of drug trafflddng. Forthetime and so. sir, now H has encouraged Imperial t)eing. according to the reports that are ist poweiB as Mr. Nirmal Chatlei]ea says, available, they have larger assets than H- now is only supper power. Now, everytxxiy abilities In India. I am told their General 233 Motion m.coUspse BHADRA23,1913(S>VC4) of B.C.C.L 234 Man ager's house was searched recently somebody’s instance, he was released. That and some Incriminating documents were point has already been made very forcefully found out. I am also told, subject to correc- by him. tion,ithat all the documents and the confi dential letters, which were found on income SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: It has Tax raid have now t>een returned t>ank to been expunged also. him. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: I hope Sir, the Rnance Minister has made a only the name has been expunged. The vary long statement. But i am very sorry to questton of release, you have not omitted say, it was almost a eover-up operation of from the record. BCCI's Bomt>ay Branch. I think, you know the phrase,‘suppressk)veri.suggestk) fails’. I do not wish to repeat what he has said, At least nty nephew knows it. That is pre iendorse these things. Sut>sequentiyfourof cisely that has happened, i am toM the them were released on the recommenda gentleman who was asked to prepare it tions of the Advisory Board that heard the overnight, felt very unhappy and in the early cases as provMed in the COFEPOSA Act moming when he finished writing, he wrote Whenthefourproson were released, the big something totally false. fish was also released, subsequently by the Government, Mr. Murari. His photograph SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: There is had come out in the India Today. nothing false in it Kindly see what has happened. How SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: So. ever. the case was adjudk»ted by Order everything is conrect; very well. Many facts dated 20.6.1988 imposing a penalty on the were not t>rought out The statenwnt of bank, its emptoyees as well as travel agents Finance Minister says: and ordering confiscation of the seized ex change of US $ 1,32,000 as well as the ’ BCCi was Involved In controversy In Indian cunrency of Rs. 17,00,057 taken are 1986 when investlgatton by Enforcement from the t>ank. The Enforcement Directo Directorate revealed that the bank was re rate investigated the matter relating to ir leasing foreign exchange against the For regular release of foreign exchange against eign Travel Scheme to travel Agents without Foreign Travel Scheme and the Directorate verifying the signatures of the actual was not in possesston of any evMence travelers, with the result that a substantial regarding use of such money for buying annunt of foreign exchange was released arms. This is what the statement says. on the strength of the forms bearing forged Therefore, there was some complaint I and fake signatures.* wouki like toknow who made that complaint In 1986. Why was the Directorate trying to I do not know where Mr. Digv^aya Singh find out whether this money was utilised for has gone; I think he is feeling hungry. He buying anms? This is from the statement of saM, large numfterof passports came sud the Rnance Minister. I wouM Ike to know den^ and it couM not be dealt with. Ttiere- from the Finance Minister who made that fore they were given and there is nothing charge, or complaint that they were buying wrong in K. Now, the Rnance Minister's arms. They say, the dirsctorate dM not g ^ statement says that those forms were bear and evidence. But who made the aliegatton? ing foiged and fake signatures. Therefore, Why dM you investigate into this charge? you are permitting in the hunry payment of The Reserve Bank of India also deputed a foreign exchange on the basis of foiged and special investigatton team in January, 1987 take signatures! what happened? Some to took into the matter and find out whether pemns were arrested. I am not going into the seriousness of the Bcense of the baink. wtwt Mr. Qeorge Fkmandes has saM that at Why suddenly in 1987there was a necessity 235 Motion re. coUapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.L 236 Somnath Chattsijee] reports? Will you share them with the House if they are In favour of the BCCI? If nothing to look Into the matter and to find out against thecountry*s interest has beenfound wlwtherthe seriousness of the irregularities out. thenshare it with us and let us see those Justified demands for cancellation of the things. Do you not trust the Members of license of the Bank. The inspection revealed Pariiament?You trust the Intelligence agen that there were mainly procedural ln«guiari- cies; you tnjst the Reserve Bank of India ties in foreign exchange operations and offteers who will be involved In It if the conduct of the bank in certain areas. Those allegations are true. You acceptthelr raport fake and foiged signatures are treated as But you do nottnjstthe Members of Parlia meney procedural Irregularities. It Is further ment The point Is that Shri Manmohan stated ‘^uch ineguiarities had also t)een Singh did not leave It at that because he observed in the case of other authorised must have really woiked in those establish dealers In India.* Everybody is Indulging in ments. Something may be there. Therefore payment of foreign exchange on the basis of what he says Is: fake and foiged signatures. Therefore. BCCi Is doing, what is wrong In that? R Is sakJ; “ This is merely procedural irregularity.* This ‘Govemment is fully alert about this is the trouble with the lawyer. We read the aspect of the matter...? sentence very carefully. It Is further said; This dkl not warrant revoking of license.* Therefore, through this one can get out If something Is found out later on. He says: MR. C H A IR K ^ : Can you kindly wind up now please? ‘I have made the above statennenton the basis of information available at present. In SHRi SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: I am casefurtherinformatiort becomes available. trying to stop winding up of the country. Government will take appropriate actton.* Therefore, I am saying, this is the Gov What is treated to be relevant informa ernment’s own statement Hie has referred tion, who gives It to the Finance Minister about the information available from the intelligence agency. Reserve Bank of India. from the Govemment?Whogives that infor mation to you? We are giving this Informa Only one more paragiaphfrom his state tion to you on the basis of reports from ment I wHI read. * As regards the points respected, known, responsible publicatkNis raised k) this Ftouse In respect of reports and instituttons. Almost some of them have alleging payments to Indian politicians and become Insdtutkms themselves. WhMher bureaucrats and financing of terrorist or- we Bke it or not. the Time magazine, the ganlsatkms the BCCI (Overseas) LM., IM6WS W06K, ino cconomisi navB Dscoms Bombay Branch, from the infonnatlon avall- instituttons in thMf respective counters. We tMe from the IntoHlgence agencies and the nwst accept that Therefore. I think Shri Reserve Bank of India, there is no indicatton Jaswant ^ g h has done a grisat duty to the ofspedfic instances or any definite Informa- nation by bringing in this Motion and asking tkm of that nature.Thls Is pradsely the for an appropriato. proper in-depth inquliy. reason why we want an Inve^atton. Who i wouU Hketo say that oouki be nolwtlerand has done this Investigation. MR. Finance more aoceptaUe inquiry thiui the author- Minister? Has this investlgatkm t)een done Ry of Parliament through the means of a Joint Parliamentary Committee. I believe Iqf your officerB in the Resenre Bank? Wil it nobody wHI deny that fact be to their interest to disctose the facte? At wtiat level the Inquiry has been make t>y the [TmislaUon] ■ntefligenoe agencies? i wouM ll(e to know who has made this inquiry. Where are the SHRI V.N. SHARMA (Hamiipui): Mr. 237 Motion n. 0(^kpS9 BHADRA 23,1913 {SAKA) of B.C.CJ. 238 Cha hnnn. Sir, I hav» a v«iy brief point of graphical inportance specially In the third order. This is tlie first session of Tentti Loic worid countries and countiy like Jamica Sal)ha and the speed) of Shri George was couM ten the IMF that ttiey were not taking Interruptedaiotearilar. Whatever we spealc loanfromthe IMFbecause of the advancing in the House, it is piMished in t>rief and of loans of 48 militon dollars from the BCCi detaiis are reported veibatlnt. Therefore, it to Jamica. The same thing happened with would be better If you see for yourself how Peru. While dealing with the Arabcountries, much Shri Oeoige and others spoke and Pakistan is our neighbor. BCCI is having 350 how much time was aHottedtoeach of thent. l>rancfies. It was but natural that they shouM have been allowed to open at least one JEngm j branch In India in spite of the many reserva tions expressed by our experts. We also MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of shoufci study the subsequent happenings order. Please sK down. about this Bank. This Bank wanted to open branches in Lucknow to start the real estate business. But It was not allowed by the SHRI VUAY NAVAL PATIL (Erandol): Congress Government. This shows thatthe Mr. Chairman, Sir, at the outset I would Ike Congress Government was not having any to saythataman of Imagination, Intelligence bad motives In altowing the branch to be and craft Shri Agha Hasan Abedi, originally opened in the first instance. from India, bom in Indlaspedally inthe State of Bttiar from where Shri RamVNas Paswan ShriGeorge Femandes has quoted some comes and even where Shri George letter which has been sent to him from Fernandes contested and won elections, he England. But I wouM like to say that the started a bank apparently for a good pur people, especially the people from Pakistan pose. It was started as far back as 1972. But and other Muslims from other parts of the ttie Branch was opened in India in 1983. We country are very touchy about this issue. have to go a Httie deep into the history and They say that this is a game on people see that way back in 1976 branches were betonglngtootherreligton. I woukiiacetosay opened 10,000 mUes away in the United that even the spreading of the scandal issue States of Americas also. This bank Is oper has not taken the fate of the BCCI employ ating 350 Branches in 70 countries. Imfia is ees. I wouU lice to quote a statement of the the neighboring country to Pddstan. This Chief Minister of the Sinned province. He bank Is dominated Pakistan and K is says: called the Third World Bank. When R was having branches in 70 countries comprising 350 branches It was not found to be bad or "AbMes success was perhaps too much we cannot attrttMte any ufterior motives for the Ztonist tt> Storitach’ says Jam Sadk) when the branch was opened in India in All, Chief Minister of Southern Pakistan 1983. Province Sind. 2000 hra. They are stil thinking that the bulk wID come out on this scandal. Already the High Shri> Jaswant Singh and Shri George Court in Ljondon has altowed the operation Fkmedes aretiying to make politibai aHega- of this Bank because of the assurance from tton on account of opening of a bnmch of the nM^or sharehoMer SheBdi ZaM bln Sul BCCI in 1983in India. It appears thctt they do tan of Abu DabL Underthesedrcumstances,^ not have more interest ki the amount of the what we have to see is, how we can protect' depositors which is heM up in the t > ^ the Interest of our deposltore. What hap because of the dispute thathas started.' pened because of advancing obdubtous bans? It was not the ReHanoe alone. But the In 1980, this Bank had acquired geo industrialist dose to our friend on the oppo- 239 Motbn re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.L 240 (Sh. vqa ynwal Patiq tries, disputes arose and some eyebrows were raised because, this bank hasfinanced site side Shrf R.K. Gupta of the United the projects in some countries, whfch were Groups wlio is alleged to have taken a ailed by dtetators or in those countries which dut)ious loan of Rs. 12 crores from this Bank could not get IMF loan. and the payments are not t>eing made. There may be some hreguiaritles; there In Borflbay, when these fake passports may be scandals of corruption but, that does were allegedly found, when the fake slgna- not mean that every memberfromthe other turas were noticed, some people were ar skie shouM try to level allegations and raise rested under COFEPOSA. But they were eyebrows against the ruling party and try to released by the court as suffkslent evMence make It a big Issue. was notforthcoming. But unfortunately, Shri Geoige Fernandes wanted to usethls occa- With these words, I ask shri Jaswant sk>n and level charges against the ex-Prime Singh to withdraw his motion, when the Minister. It is not becoming of a Member of Finance Minister comes out with his assur Parliament when the court has released the ance on certain enquiries made by the hon. culpriL Members from the other skle. Asfar as appointment of aparllamentary With these words, Iconclude. Ithankyou committee Into the Investigatton of affairs is forgiving me an opportunity. concerned, I wouM lice to say that It Is a multlnattonal concem and the SBI offteers [Translation] are enquiring into the dealings of this Bom bay branch. And a Grand Jury of the Ameri SHRI CHHITUBHAI GAMIT (Mandvl): can Govemment Is enquMng about Its af Mr. Chairman, Sir, a k>t of discussion had fairs in more branches. And so is the case been going on the t>lll, presented by Shri with the High Court of London and in other Jaswant Singh. Eartier speakers have said countries enquires are going on. many things. I don’t want to repeat all those things. But Mr. Chairman, sir. I am going to It will not be In the fttness of things, to speak on the amendment put fonward by me appointaJoint Parliamentary Committee, at with great despair, fhave been a Member of this stage, to go Into the affairs of the BCCI. Lok Sabha since 1977. During this period, Hence, Instead of giving more ramificattons economic conditions of the country have to this scandal, we should try to protect the always been discussed and I have observed Interests of the deposltore. Shri Somnath that economic condition of the country is Chatter]ee. tried to allege that some rela deteriorating day by day. We can’t deny It tives of the govemment officers are working In this bank. It has been s ^ that *as It Is a Mr. Chairman, Sir, I have obsenred third woitd bank, it Is suffering from this that our deteriorated economic conditton weak point and that relatives and friends of has affected foreign trade. We cannot deny the people who are working in Pakistan, who it. The position of our foreign trade has are controling this bank, are appobited as become pitiable due to constant deteriora off idals without tooking at their competency tion of foreign exchange reserves. Mr. Chair In the banking administratton’. I see nothing man, sir, through you, I want to remind the wrong In the appointment of those people, house that the economic condition of the who, by chance, are related to some officers country was very bad whenthe Govemment in the Govemment of India. Thtebankseems of oppositton parties was formed at the to be operating weH and its operaUons are Centre during 1977. After the election of good. The former Prime Minister of a coun 1980, former Prime Minister, lateSmt. Indira try wasthe Financial Consultant of this Bank Gandhi, reassumed the office of Prime Min till recently. Only In some areas. In coun ister, The Indians who live abroad earn 241 Motion re. coBapse BHADRA 23,1913 (S4/C4) of B.C.C.L 242 money by running business there. All their ment of foreign exchange loans and during eamir.gs renialned In foreign countries. 1982-83 we had to face such diffk»ilties N.R.I. schenie was formulated to attract atong with many otherprobiems. This is also foreign capital of those Indians for investing one of the reasons of encouraging NRIs to it in our country. Ail the Members of the invest their capital in India during 1982-83 House know that Indians residing abroad permission was granted to B.C.C.1. or Its have Invested crores of rupees of foreign parallels Banks to open their branches In exchange in this country. Great benefit is India. It Is surprising the then Finance Min being derived for maldng payment of loans ister, Shri V.P. Singh and his Assistant. Shri of foreign trade. Thousands of people from Bhure Lai had not taken any action Against Surat, particularly South Gujrat from where It despite having thorough knowledge of I hail, are earning a lot by running an Indus these activities. I, through you, want to ask try, etc. In foreign countries. They have sent one question that in 1989 when Shri V.P. foreign exchange to our country through Singh was Prime Minister, Shri dandavate jl B.C.C.I. Today, a controversy over B.C.C.I. was Finance Minister and Shri Geoiige is going on and In that connection In my Femandes was also hon. Minister and the constituency, the family members of those very mover of the Bill hon. Shri Jaswant people who are residing Inforeign countries, Singh was their good friend, nothing against have met me. They have said that they had BCCI was sakl by them nor any action was deposited the money as foreign exchange In taken at that time. Shri V.P. Singh knew It in B.C.C.I. In the Interest of India. It is not safe 1986. Many such things have appeared in now. A discussion may t>e held in Lok Sabha the Newspapers. In addittonto, I want to say in this regard. You shouM being our repre that theBiiJbroughtfonward by Shri Jawasant sentative urge upon the govemment of Singh, anian Amendment Bill brought for India to provkJe security for our foreign ward by Shri George Femandes were re exchange deposited in the Bank. Keeping in lated tothe interviewgiven t^Shri Harshman. view the interests of those people. I am going to amend the Bill. I through you. Sir, Mr. Chairman, Sir, he is the same want to draw the attentton of the House on Harshaman, who in 1985-86 had sakl that B.C.C.I. as to when and why it was started. the then Rnance Minister, Shri V.P. Singh In 1977, the sanction to open the branch of had given him letters. But shri V.P. Skigh this Bank was granted when it was the denies even to have met him. ShouM we govemment of Janata Party and hon. Shrl depend on Harshman so always tells a Ue. I Moraiji Bahi Desal was Its prime Minister know that the State Bank of India is making and shii H.M. Patel hon. Finance Minister. an enquiry about the Bombay Branch of The branch of B.C.C.1. was opened In 1983. B.C.C.1. When its enquiry is going on, NRIs Shrl George femandes has sakJ that the can face a lot of problems. They have given permlsston was granted In 1983. But, as a foreign exchange worth crores of njpees to matter of fact, the dedston to open the Bank India during the last few years. was taken when Janata Party was In power. At that time, Shrl George Fernandes was Mr. Chairman, Sir, I. through you, Industry Minister and he was in the Govern want to request the hon. Rnance Ministerto ment the permission was granted to open conskler it sympathetically. We shouM wall the Bank during that period. It was needed the result of the action being taken against to establish god reiattons with Pakistan. It Is It the State Bank of India. We ShouM also also ourforeign policy that permlsston may awnaltthe reactton of Reserve Bank of India be granted to open the branches of foreign in this regard. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I, through Banks In India. It also comes under the you, ivouU request the hon. Finance Minis guide-lines of foreign poik^. We shouM ter to give protection to the non-resklent recaH that a tot of foreign exchange was Indians, Indan Industrialists and traders raqulrad at that time since great difnculty who have deposited their money In B.C.C.L was being experienced in making the pay We ShouM ensure them security so that the 243 Motion re. ooKapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 ofB.C.C.1. 244 ^.ChhRubhaiOamR] Minister to reply now, we may have to sit tW 1 AM in the morning, moral of NRIs remain high. The motion : amendment brought forward by me to the MR. CHAIRMAN:OK. I think the general Bill originaiiy moved by Shri Jaswant Singh opinion of the House is that the Minister and which has been given in the list of shouM reply now. Business should considered sympalheti- caHy. SHRI B. VUAYAKUMAR RAJU: The decision has already been taken by the lEnglsh] Business Advisor Committee.(/nfem(pltofls] MR. CHAIRMAN: WouldtheMinlsterllke SHRIJASWANTSINGH(Chittoor-gath) to make the reply now? : Sir, without wanting to be going contrary to (bitenupthns) what you are saying, I would like to sub mit..... MR. CHAIRMAN: I think every facet of the facts of this case have been brought out MR. CHAIRMAN: I amquite open to your by the three or four stalwarts who have a suggestton. spoken from this skle and I do not think that anything remains to be spoken and if so, it SHRI JASWANT SINGH: It is not a sug- may be only repetitton of those points. gestton. Rules repair that the right of reply Heswiththe mover of the Motion and not with (Mem^>aons) the Minister. I Just want to corred the wrong impresston. The hon. Minister may btter* SHRI B. VIJAYAKUMAR RAJU vene. But the right of reply Is with the mover. (Narsapur): Being the Leader of the telugu deswn Party. I want to speak on behalf of my MR. CHAIRMAN: thank you forcorred- party. ing me. The hon. Minister wiH intervene now. And later, atong wBh you, shri George MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no time. The Fernandes and ShriGamIt who nxwed sonne tiflM allotted was three hours and we have amendments will also getachanoe to speak. already extended ft to four and a haV hours. SHRI B. VUAYAKUMAR RAJU: I also PROF. UMMAREOOY VENKATES- want to speak Sir. I ha9e some questtons WARLU CTenaH): Let ourparty have oursay. and I exped a reply from the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: All fads have already MR. CHAIRMAN: Iwaigiveyouachance been brought out later. First lislen to the hon. Minister. SHRI B. VUAYAKUMAR RAJU: Then SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: Sir. I have why shouW we Man Mohan Singh] Now. soma of the Members have brought upthisquestkm. What were the viewsof the some pressure from some Arab countries, f^esenre Bank Qovemor and what were the th» AbiHtnbi that this bank should Internal discussions between the Reserve be brought into India. In 1979. the then Bank and the Ministiy of Finance? I want to Govammant, at the ievel of the Minister of say that it woukl be a sad day. If confktontlal State daddad that the iBsenra Bank shouid correspondence dealing with Resetve Bank be asked to ghw ttiis bank’s branch. That and the Government become aut)|ect mat- dadston was approved by the then Finance terof public debate butido say thatabranch Minister. was agreed to be given to the BOCi in accordance with established procedures. Let me say that I am not attributing any The power to give that Branch rests wlh the mothw. The Finance Minister at that time Reserve Bank. There are always consuKa- happened to be Chowdhaiy Charan Singh. tions between the Government and the I have the greatest regard and respect for Reserve bank. There are occasions when his integrity. Therefore, when I am staling one takes one view but ultimately another this fact, I am not imputing any motive that view pravaHs. But that does not mean that ether the Minister of State or Chowdhary there were any ulterior motives In bringing Sahib was acting out of any ulterior motives. this bank to India, |ust as one cannot con But there was a faeUng that there is an up clude that there were uiletk)r motives in coming tMuik. Also, there wasaveiyconskl- 1979 to give this bank a branch, if you were erableeiement of Muslim opinkm which saM tokx)katthesltuatk>ntoday.lthlnk.ltwoukl that why are we dtecriminaUng against It. be agreed that It was probably a mistake to There were also representative from some bring this bank. Arab countries. A dedshN) to give a branch of this bank was in fact taken at the level of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Thank the Finance Minislar. you. im . CHAIRMAN: I am Sony to intenrupt SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: But Ithink you. On this subject. I think, the other day. one Is wiser by the wqwrtonce. But the very when you were speaking, you had men- tact that this bank was given a branch in tkMwd that the file had been spedfteaHy 1983 does not wanant the type of insinua- taken by hand there. DU it create an impras- tkms that have been made on theftoor of the skm? House. SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: I do not SHRI S0MNA1H CHATTERJEE: That know. If I had conveyed that knprsaskxi. faduidhr conecL You were ovemiM. That then lapotos^foriL I relleratethat Ido not Is correct now. want toglveanytoelings that there were any idtortormottvea. SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH : Ttie sec ond thing thatlwant to siQf is this. This bank The Government fel at that time. At that has been kept under watch. stage Shrl Bahuguna was the Finance Min- Mar and Chowdhary saMb was the Prime MMster. It was decided that this nnatler I am not reveaHng any secret shouMbe wviawadagain andalthaltinM a because tlwre were suspicions right ftom dscMon was taken that particular dadskm thee beginning that this bank had some should not be brplsmanled. The BCCI per- oonnoctkNis wlh Pakistan. But you cannot sisiad wkh their appniach. In 1983, the hangaperaonoranlnsfltuttonmaralyonthe decision was taken and i wouM say in ac basis of suspiekm. We are a sodaiy which cordance with approved prooedufea to give tricas pride In being governed by 0ie rale of liw Bank a Blanch in Bombay. lnvaliioughthoiaiMiaiuipicion.th«th8ra 249 Motion re. colkpse BHAORA 23.1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 250 wer e no indications that this banl< was then because South Commission was supported indulging in any of these things. by the Third Worid Foundation and there- foiB the Chairman of the South Commission Then, as a matter of abundant caution, thereby became a tool of the CIA or of drug the Reserve Bank and also our Intelligence laundering and all these things, I think we sgendes throughout itept a watch on the are trying to read many things into these activities of this banlt. Now. the question things. Investigative Joumaiism has a place, artees, why are we trying to make an aitlfi- but a tot of things which are being saM quite dal distentton between the affairs of the honestly, these are not things which are Bombay Branch and the affairs of the BCCI being substantiated by the fact (rf the case. outsMe? Quite honestly, the resources at our disposal • Reserve Bank and our intelli Now references were made to the in gence agencies • are not so extensive that vestment by non-resMent companies or a we can polkse the activities of the BCCI all particular group of firms was referred to; over the world. Let me also say that at one references were also made other f^-R e s i- time there was not a sympathy for the BCCI dent Indian. I feel saddened the way these in the Third workl. Only two or three years references were made. We have today a ago. they opened a Branch In China. large amount of non-resktent deposits bi our country; these are 11 billion dollars. Now if lean also mention the Third WorM Foun- this becomes a norm In this country that datton which was financed by the BCCI. It anylMdy who keeps deposits as a Non- was veiy active in many of the Third World Resklent Indian, he is dubbed as a person causes. who Is laundering black nwney... hjpw, a reference was made to the distin SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: No guished former Presklent of Tanzania on body has saM. the ftoor of this House who got the Third WorkI Prize. SHRI MAI4M0HAN SINGH : You may not say, but this is bound to t>e read into It. Now, are you going to suggest that Presi Now this sort of athing, I think, is going to do dent JuHus Nyersre was a tool of the CIA that an irreparable damage to the reputation of ha waspaddlingdrug nrwney. I think if you do the Indian banking system. K. you wouU be Insulting one of the greatest personalities of the Third Worid Countries. Now, we have looked Into the activities of the Bombay branch. I may also say that As far as I am concerned, when I be there was a suspteion and therefore on a came the Secrstaiy-General of the South number of occastons investigattons were Commission, the Third Worid Foundation madebythe Reserve Bank of Imfla, toother had promised to give to the South Commis- agencies and references were made to sk>n 4,00,000 dollars. [Intenruptions] The what adton was taken by the Enforcement third WortdFoundatton had agreed to give to Diredorate In 1986. it Is true that they the South Comntisshm 400,000 dollars. vtoiatedthe Foreign Exchange Regulattons When I became the Secretary-Oenefal, for Ad; that there were forged signatures; but soma reason or the other, they never ful- theguHty party was a Travis agency; and I fiOed the promise also. may mentton that the case of a forged passport was not turned out to be tnje when SHRISOMNATH CHATTERJEE: They this matter was Investigated by the Advisory ww« scared of you. Convnlttee; that the same Enforcement Dl- ledorate couU not substantiate that these 8HR1MANMOHAN SINGH: For what people were having forged passports; in ever It It, ttM vwy fad that the Third WorW fad, at least 40 people appeared before the FoundsHon WM Bupportad by t he BOFI and Advisory Board. They, in tad. were pitgrims; 251 Mothn n. coOapse SEPTEMBER 14,1991 of B.C.C.I. 252 Man Mohan Singh] SHRi MANMOHANSINGH; AH lean say thay, in fact, had gone for a h«4.1 think, what Is, for Example. I have tooked into certain was therefore said about them was not transacttons of the State Bank. It wouW not correct. R is true that they, I thinit, did not be prudent on my part to name indivkiual sign and therefore thunt) signatures or persons who were the beneficiaries or the fwged signatures were there on theirtwhalf; subject matter of those no transactions. AH lxititlstiuethatthesepeopiedidTravts;that I can says Is. that the State Bank made they were genuine tiaveiiere. So, I thinic the money out of those transactions. I dW not aiiegation made by the Enforoemsnt Direc see prima fade anything wrong with those torate, was not substantiated before the transactions. Advisory Comrhtttee. I aiso teit you that I have great regards for our Enforcement Now, therefore, my overall request to Agencies, but, sometimes, they are also this House Is that whatever has been saM on carried away by over enthusiasm. There theftoorofthishtouse iwouldtransmittothe fore, it is the bounded duty, i thlnit, of this Reserve Bank, to our Intelligence agencies. House that, when dealing with the citizens of I may also inform the House that I have ourcountiy, we should ieveiwld charges appointed, rather the Reserve Bank have against those who have no chance of de appointed MA. Blilinwria and Company to fending. Reputations are made; reputations do a comprehensive au(tt of the activities of are marred. References are same in this the Bombay branch right from the date of its House. The privileges of the House protect inceptton. Therefore. If any hon. Member of us for saying whatever we say. And Ithlnic It this House has any information having a win not be a good day if these charges are bearing on the conduct of this BCCI Bonnbay made without valid basis. operations, kindly he may make It available to me. I woukf have It Investigated. Similariy, references have been made about the State Banic of incfia’s deaHng, About the other aspects, the security about the Syndicate Bank of India's dealing. aspect. I have myself been in touch with the Let me say. I do not see anything wrong with chiefs of the security organizattons. I woukl the State Bank of India or any other Indian not like to divulge, for example, w;hat they bank having corresponding banking rela- havetoU me, but they have assured me that tkNis with BCCI so long as BCCi remains they have been ware of all these things that here as a scheduled bank. are going on, that they have been alert and that although a kit of suspicton does exist, There were normal activities. These were quite honestly as of today I think, no def initt entered in good faith. Now, if it turned out proof of the BCCI having done something In that the BCCI was indulging In certain unde our country has been found. Wedo not have sirable activities, that, ipso facto does not that prod. But I think as I have saW. there cast a doubt on the Integrity of our bankers cannot be any finality about these things. be It the Syndicate Bank or any other. They WewouMbeveryalert.Vanylnlormatk)non may have made mistakes, they may have these aspects becomes available here, losses. But IttiInk to impute motive that they whosoever has the informatton. through the were pari of a gang to defraud this country Senate inquiry or the Bank of England ln> to launder Mack money, I think that charge, quiry. I think we would pursue K. We are not I cannot accept I strongly repeat M. in the business of cover up operattons. SHRI80MNATHCHATTERJEE: There As I saU, ex post facto It appeare today Is conpM e mlsunderstamfttg. I saU, why that It was a mistaka to have brought the should the nattonalsed banks Invest the BCCI mto this country. But I think from this money there? The money was invested by one shouM not oondude tl)at thOM who several other banks there. l>rought It were naoeaaarlly guided by 253 Motion n. coHapse BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 254 consideration. I think that, that would not t>e courtesy to meet me to say that he will not true of those who wanted to bring the Banic be here. Therefore. I have to be very brief in in 1979 or those who brought it in 1983. replying to what he has sakl. I wonder as to why he was so pre-occupied with sexually With these words, I thank the hon. Mem suggestive phraseology. His inten/entton ber for giving me this opportunity to expiain was largely of sexually suggestive phraseol the position. ogy. Though he dklhaveasomewhatlaborad and thrgkJ attempt at humor, his fixatton of t now request the hon. Shri Jaswant sterility left me wondering whether it was a Singh not to press his nwtion. Freudian fixatton. But other than that, I do not know what he was speaking about be SHRI BHOQENDRA JI4A (Madhu- bani) cause he wandered on Bofors and he went : But you dkJ not respond to the amend on to Fairfax. He was concerned mors with ments. The news item has been there., that history than with the nwtton itself. I do not several top ranking persons in the several want to go into all aspects of what he had stages have been emptoyed. He dkt not sakl except one thing. He said that only one reply to ll instance has been cited by me. I had given an illustrative instance. Forthe informatton of the hon. Finance Minister, I have with me Second, I think in view of the suspkdon a copy, which incklentally was not sent to already created, wouM It not be better to me, it was sent to Shri AdvanI, of an internal dear the admlnistratton and to refer the audit dated 20th July 1989from BCCI, Bom questton foradJudk»tk>n? Appoint a JPC as bay to BCCi, London, from Mr. Muraikiharan has been demanded by my friend, Shri to Mr. Kapadia. It is about Swish trade JasWant Singh. account I do but want to go into the details of all this. SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH; I shaU ex I am not really interested in sending it to plain about It. My own view is, since it anyone, if you feel that it is worthy to take became a subject matter of leading newspa note of it, please take note of it Otherwise, per which Is the favorite of some secttons of you can reject what I am saying. It is talking this House, I think, 1 do not frankly believe about Swier trade account starting wKh 5 that chUdren's sins shouM: be carried bank militon U.S.doHarsandgoingupto20 million to their own parents. I do not propose to U.S. dollars. Ail the paiticuiar are here the Finance Mister Is interested in this or make those Investigations. not....[kitem^ftions] SHRI JASWANT SINGH(Chittorgarh); MR. CHAIRMAN: He has already re Mr. Chairman, Sir, I recognise that the House quested you to forward a copy to him. Is now weary of this discusston as it has sat fora tong time. But It is customary on such SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Sir. It is in their occaskms, firstly forthe mover of the motton possesston. I doni have to fonward them a to thank all those who have participated In copy on documents which are already in the dtecusslon. their possesston. It Is a Memorandum and R Is apart of the bank's records.4lr)l«m49tfofl^ Thersatter, I am obliged firstly to reply to some of the poirtts that have been made and luff). CHAIRMAN; He had already saW thereafter to re-state the core of my con that he wlii refer al the issues to the RBI or cern. to the Intelligence Agency. The hon. Member from Rajgarh, Shri SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: A l issues Olgv4aya8lngh,WMthellnlSpeaker,fiekled that have been raised In the proper agen by the Congrset Party. Unfortunately he Is cies. not here now. He it unwelL He dM have the 255 Motion re. collapse SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.I. 256 SHRIJASWANT SINGH: I am refening Let me, at the very outset, share some to what shri Digvijaya Singh has said. He views about the personal explanation that said that only one Instance has been cited by the hon. Finance Minister started his inter me. There were numerous instances. vention with. I am immediately saddened that the hon. Finance Minister had to start MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jaswant ^inghjl, with such a personal explanatton. I find It a you said that whether the Rnanoe Minister matter of great objection when inslnuattons Is Interested in this or not It is now of my duty of this kind are being made against a young to point out to you that the Finance Minister girl. I do not have the good fortune of has already said that every point, every knowing the hon. Finance Minister's daugh single point raised here, will be refened to ter. But he did once tell me about her. She the Reserve Bank of India or to the Intelli Is studying In her own right. She Is following gence Agency. So, do not say that he is not the footsteps of a distinguished economisL interested, {htenuptions). I hope that she will prove to be an equally distinguished economist in the coming years. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Will he let us know the result also?(/r7f«ffuptfon5) Therefore, It saddens me also person ally that the hon. Rnance Minister shouM MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sony to interrupt. have found it necessary to provide - what I I think It is also one of my duties to bring out think is a veiy gractous gesture on his part, the correct perspective in front of you. but wholly unnecessary- personal explana tion because as Members of Parliament and SHRIJASWANTSIN6H: Mr. Chaimrtan, Ministers of the Government, whichever Sir, as you are now engaged In darHylng the Government attempted to provkle answers iss\te6.»{k)terrupUons) to some insinuatton or suggestion made every time that something appears in what MR. CHAIRMAN; O. K. I wHI accept It. ever newspaper, then the Journey will never SHRI JASWANT SINGH: You saM it sir. end. There is a refined Arabic saying on this. (Intem^ions) If everytime you hear about the caravan were to stop, tt will never reach its destina SHRI JASWANT SINGH: As you are tion. now engaged in clarifying the issues, would you also please tell the hon. Rnanoe Minis- It does sadden me and I feel.. terto let us know of all that he sakJ he will look into. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Jaswant Singh, does it have anything to do with the BCCI? SHRISOMNATHCHATTERJEE:Hesald to send them to the R.B.I. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: It does. He started with K. He gave a personal explanc- SHRIJASWANTSINQH:Allthe security tton because he was really feeling about It Issues wU also be kMked Into. I wouM wish to know that having been looked Into, after MR. CHAIRMAN: But, I think, that has no that wouki the Parliament be enlightened direct relevance with the BCCI case actu with what has been looked into? And the ally. consequences of that tooking Into? (Mem^/Uons) I wouW not labour much on the interven tion of Shri Digv|aya Singh because he Is SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: He not here. I have to spend a Mtle time on what appreciated the gesture on his part because tiw hon. Finance MnMer has saU. he felt the anguish.(Aitimf)MEMi^ 257 Motion re. collapse BHADRA 23,1913 (SAKA) of B.C.C.I. 258 MR. CHAIRMAN; Ithinkwe shouldgrace- at all. {bitem^ions): And I am sure that is fuNy accept what he has said and we should not the thesis that he wishes to propound, not bring the hon. Finance Minister's daugh yet that is impresston that he has left with us. ter Into the proceedings. Similarly, when he said about NRI invest SHRIJASWANT SINGH: He mentioned ment and his suggestion that our reference It. I am only sharing his anguish. {Interrvp- to NRI investment causes — and he again tions) used this word — irreparable damage, it is not the correct expression. We have here SHRI SOMNATH CHA7TERJEE: No two concems, it is the twin concems that are body has brought H{lntermptlons) in confltet; as a Finance Minister I can well understand that he is interested In getting as MR. CHAIRMAN: It would be more grace many non-resklent Indians to invest in India ful if you share tt privately with him later on as he can prudently find. instead of recording in the proceedings. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Black (Interruf^ions) or white. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: In the sub SHRIJASWANT SINGH: Biackorwhite, stance of the interventions of the hon. Fi I mean, the cotour of the money being nance Minister, I would share that he went indifferent. But that is another concern. I into the events into the chronology of the wish to share tt with the Rnance Ministerthat opening of this bank. And I welcome two there is a simultaneous concern about the statements by the hon. Finance Minister, basic health of our instituttons and I am not. that, now, in retrostpect, he finds that the for a moment, suggesting that the Finance opening of this bank was possibly a mistake Minister does not have that concern, he and tt Is reassuring to leam that the bank does indeed have it end when he referred to was kept under watch, partteulariy the Paki questionable non-reskfent Indian invest stan aspect of Its linkages. ments, it is not because we doni want them to invest, it is the totality of conf ktonce about I am saddened when the hon. Finance India whteh will achieve both the health of the institutions as also enhanced and con Minister in an intervention said and he used tinuing investment by the overseas and non some strange adjectives about what I and resklent Indians. Otherwise, this kind of an my good friend Shri George Femandes had Investment by a non-resident Indian is a said and he called them unrestrained inter- very fragile, inherently fragile investment ventkms and he suggested thatthesecaused irreparable damage. The Impiicatton is. Sir, SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: I wouM like that there is some kind of prerogative about to point out that this particular trensactton responsibility that the observations that we relating to 1982-83 was In fact investigated make are always damaging but the obser- by Shri Bhure Lai himself. He went round the vattons made by the Treasury Benches or gtobe to find proof of this, he dU not find their activities are not damaging, (tntemp- anything to sut>stantiate it Uon^. I am constrained to make an obser- vattononthls because It Is both avery strong SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I doni think adiecthreforthe Finance Ministerto use and that was my point at all an uncharaderisticaBy closed conclusion to draw. If what we say, which Is in accordance SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: The point I with what you wish to hear or that whteh am making is that you shouM not be making piaasesyou and only that with which you aHegatton aboutthese accounts if you do not agrM and only that Is good, then Idonlthink have the facts. Ithlnktdamages our Image. thin atsambly wfilch is an assent>ly of dis- awil and dtocusskm wW have any meaning SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I do not know to which aHegatkm he is referring to. (Intor- 259 Motion r». coiley>s« SEPTEMBER 14.1991 of B.C.C.L 260 rupUons). I do not know, Mr. Chairman, to officer who went abroad and dU not find wtwt al*oation the hon. the Finance evMence to substantiate that these Inves- tar Is retoning. ton tiave, in fact, laundered money. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: This is the SHRi JAQDI^HTYTLER: Ftattlous alle point which has t)een made t}y the interven gation. tionists fielded t>y the Congress Party, Isakf, K reaHy begs the questkm. It does not matter SHRIJASWANT SINGH : I do not which officer Is connected with it, but the know. {IntBmipaonit. Enfoioement Directorate and todaywe have arrived at a sKuatlon wherein the Enforce MR. CHAIRMAN: Kindly don’t inter ment DIrsctoraie’s findings ars cok>rsd or rupt alleged to be cotored. This Is a matter of concern to us. That is what I have saM and SHRI JASWANT SINGH: The hon. that is what I continue to si^. If you have a Minlsler of state who wishes to Intenwne Diiectoraie Hke the Enforcement Diracto- was In fact not present when I had my rale and H it is used or found to be not Intervention made. So, he is really in no acceptable for whatever reason, then we position to tea me what I have said and have Militated and enfeebled our Institu suggested because the hon. Finance Minis tion and that was the concern connected ter.... with the public financial InstitutkMts. How ever. the concern about the health of our SHRiJAGDISHTYTLER: Fromwhat Institutions is shared as much by the Fi I heard after hearing the Finance Minisler, I nance Minister as II has been shared by me think It is al fkKKIous (InlemyMMW). But because of the tenor of the Interventkm and because of the interventhxw of most of MR. CHAIRMAN : Kindly doni Intor- the ruling party Members. I have to rellerate rupl. what I staited by saying that there le an imprssston that so far as publle financial SHRI JASWANT SINGH; The instltuttons an concerned, establishment of hononMe Finance Minister has suggested guidelnes are neoessaiy and the hon. Fi that I made a kind of alegaUon. There Is no nance Minister did not touch that aspect at alagatkm. In fact hi n v •mil* Meiventkm. al. Afler al what Is wrong In wanting an I haidiy used a single name or a single enforceable, autonomous and dear-cut peraofuMy. Thetefore. to say that there are QUiPMnM__M------A ___ TorAl— Tn9 fun lUnciiofivig r^lnrtUiri ^ oi Unanr^l iinwlow some questkms that have arisen about In lnstlulk)n8??The hon. finance MkiMar has vestment, I don't even refer to an official of not found reason to respond to that aspect the Government of India. What ooaalMe oMedkina does he have ta that He MmseV saw, the wW ask for evaiy- ininQtil In* fflOK flflS D09f1 SwQ n0fflp| A10m 00 »lOONOO--- ■--- aiUWhra. Mo. A l that we an saying Is that, al that has been saM hen be tooked. Into by a loM IdU certainly rafortotheinsttution of the fPirlamofitarvComfTriiloo Wi IMH ^ i If • WIIW* wwwwF Howlsthellook- MMW Enforoement Directorate and for the hon. big btto Impedad by Joint Parlannntafy Finance Mkiisler to run down an officer of Commlttae? M has not been made dear. the Government of Indta who Is stM in serv ice, is not oofiecL Sir, 1 am not aBoniplIng to soon only osDanng pomia nen. inoaaiwoinMigspe* SHRI MANMOHANSmgh: I am not run kig inadsquaMy anawend, I would have ning down anytXKty. I am quoting the same been compeHad, under normal dreum- 261 Mcakmn.cotlapsa BHADRA23.1913(S4/C4) of B.C.C.I. 262 sta nces, to persist with pressing my motion. I have saM that. It is understood that the But I have given my word. In the Speaker's various leaders and representatives of the chamber, when it was decided that my various Parties wouM communicate to their motion be discussed under rule 184, the Members whatever understandings that Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs have taken place. and others and indeed the hon. Speaker sakl: why do you not concede to thefactthat SHRi SRIKANTA JEN A : I think, Janata you wouM withdraw your motton at the end Dal was not there In the consultation. of the debate? So, I am bound by my word, and I seek the leave of the House to with SHRI RANGARAJAN KUMARA draw my motion. MANGALAM : I do not want to take the names and the Parties which represented there. [Interruptions] SHRi BHOGENDfM JHA : Sir, I was present there in that meeting and since he hasgiven word, he is duty^wundtofulflU his MR.CHAIRMAN : Will you sit down word, but I reque^thls august House not to please. Whatever that has happened in the give him permisston to withdraw the motton. Chamber has no concern with what hap (Interruptions), pens in the House. I think, whatever haf>- pens In the Chamber or whatever private SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Sir, the conversatton, monok)gue or (shrl George Fernandes and some other MR.CHAIRMAN : The motion stands Merhbers then left the House) MR.CHAIRMAN : Matters under Rule lEngKsh] 377 win be takm up at the end of the day, at theendofthetNjsinessoftheHouse, If you SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: W« still got enough eneigy to be here by then. ara against this BJP-Congress-l aHlanca. It IsaoainsttheinterBStofthecountry. Thar»> fore. In protest we wak out 21.12 hre. 21.05 hrm. JAMMU & KASHMIR BUDGET • ShriSomnathChattoijee and some other GENERAL DISCUSSION AND DE hon. Meirbers then left the House. MANDS FOR GRANTS (JAMMU AND KASHMIR), 1991-92 MR.CHAIRMAN: Now I put the amend ment Nos. 12 and 3 moved by Shri Geoige Fernandes to the vote of the House. lEnglshl AmentAmnts No. 1 toSwenputmd MR. CHAIRMAN : The House win now negaOved. take up General Discussion, and Voting on the DemandsforGrants in respect of Budget for the State of Jammu and Kashmir for MR.CHAIRMAN: Shri Chltubhai Gamit, 1991-92. are you withdrawing your amendment? Shri BhogendmJha tabled Cut Motions SHRI CHITUBHAI GAM IT: I seek leave to Demands for Grants. He is not present of the House to withdraw my amendmant Motkm moved: MR.CHAIRMAN: Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw this Amend That the respective sums not ex- ment? oeedng the amounts on Revenue Account and Capllal Aooount shown In the Fourth column of the Order SEVERAL HON. MEMBER: Yes. yes. Paper.be grantsdto the President out of the ConsoNdated Fund of the Stale rrm mrmnonmrn waSf oymaye, of Jammu A Kashmir to oompMe the vMnkaiim. sunMneoessaiytodafiaythechaiges that wM oome In couite of payment during the year ending the B ill day of MR.CHAIRMAN : Shri Jaswant Singh March. 1902, in respect of the heads had already moved for withdrawal of his of Dsmsfide •ntsiwlVillwiW In Wf thA MiV •eoond Motion. I presume the House gives him column thateof agalntt Demands 1 to pemrission to withdraw H 27." 265 J & K BudgM 1991-92- BHA0RA23,1913(S4/C4) (J i K). 1991-92 266 Gen. Disc. S D»m. for Grants I 'S § I I I 8 8 o8 «o a 5 I I § B ”* g S 8 E5 § 8 IS oi ;§ 11 . 8 K < 8 S !; S I ^§ o> Si « a s = p.8 g = S S s' f g S S # S S S M Ill'S S I E 5 M i! j ^ c ic o ’^*irf«pi^®o5oj2Si!52 267 JiKBudgot 1991-92- SEPTEMBER 14.1991 (J&K). 1991-92 268 Gon. Disc. & Dam. for Grants 8 s; is; 8 8 8 s; I S* S 8 8 8 8 Sf s' s’ g s g g CM . I I I c*) _ ff S s s. ? . I If s ' I g § I I J ? S CM II I 1 I II ! ii Vi 269 J&KBudget 1991-92- BHADRA23,1913(& h 8* It I S lO at 1 I s s CM* 1 271 J& K Budget 1991-92- SEPTEMBER 14.1991 (J A K). 1991-92 272 Gen. Disc. S Dem. tor Grants [Translation] mir. Therefore, I would lime that the Home Minister shoukj visit these areas immedi PROF. PREM DHUMAL (Hamiipur) : ately. Mr. Chairman, Sir, on the Jammu - Kashmir budget .... (htmvptions).. I wouid liite to 21.18 hre. speak In brief. The budget for Jammu - Kashmir was passed in the Loi( Sabha iast [SHRIMATIMALINIBATTACHARYA In year also, and every time the Presidenrs TheChali] lule Is extended there, it Is said that the situation will inprove democratic process The writ of the Govemment is not obeyed win be restored. I would like to draw the outskle the Secretariat in the Valley, and the attention of the Govemment mainly to the ten'orists have become active in Jammu and present imbalance between the three re- especially in Doda distrtet causing distress gk>ns of Janunu-Kashmlr. to the people of Jammu and Leh. I wouM like that the Budget for the Valley, Leh and There is discontent among the people of Jammu should be distributed equally so as Leh and Janunu. A major part of the tHJdget to ensure equitat>le development of all the used to be spent on the Valtey whk:h had areas. Statutory Regional Council shoukJ be resulted in the present imbalance. Only constituted for the purpose so that due yesterday, a delegatton from Leh met the attentton couM be paW to every region. The hon. Prime Minister and they wanted Leh to other thing that I would like point out Is that be declared a unton territory. The grievance of the people of Leh is genuine. [EngKsh] Mr. Chairman, Sir, there are 252 Gov A special cell to develop and monitor, to ernment schools in Leh. Buddhists consti expedite the developmental works in the tute 84 percent of Its population, by only 32 regton shouM be created. schools have Buddhist language teachers. The State Govemment has 1,20,000 em- [Translation] ptoyees, out of whom 2900 emptoyees are Buddhist. Besktes, there are corporate sec My third suggestton Is that the funds tor undertakings where 18,000 emptoyees earmarked in the Budget shoukJ be altotted are working and none of them is a Bud- to Jammu and Leh in proportion to their diists. 1500 employees are working in the populatton. State Govemment Secretariat, out of whom only one is a Buddhist 2986 Class IV em- Tourism is the biggest industry of Jammu ptoyees were appointed In Jammu-Kashmir and Kashmir. Tourist traffic has conw to a in 1987-88. no Buddhist emptoyee was ap stendstHI due to tennorist activities. We have pointed. Simiiarly, there Is not a single tech failed to oomt>at both the Pakistani propa nical institute or LLT. In the entire Leh ganda as well as Infiltretion. Even today the regton. The work of Hydel Project has been propaganda by Pakistani radto and televi going on for many years, but it is still Incom sion Is being broadcasted in the border plete. Now the State is underthe PresMenfs areas. Therefore, the Pakistani elements njle for the last 2 years. This Is the reason must be purged from the administration that i have raised the issue of regtonai also. The Janunu and Kashmir polioeshouM bnbalance. Jammu-KashmIr is a sensitive be screened and the tenrorlste shouM be area and the people of Jammu-Kashmir and weeded out Only then the law and order Ladakh are suffering because they consktor situation can improve there. Moreover, the their merger wKh India inevocabto andfinal. programs of our Doordarshan and Akashvani But due to the devetopments in the VaHey shoukl be improved to make them more and on account of the wrong policies of the Interesting. Whathappenslsthatthepeopte Central Government, the home Minister has watch the Pakistani programs In preference not found time to visit Jammu-Kashmir. In to Indian programmes. The result Is that the sptoofsuchdeterfc>ratingsituatk)n,thehon. people are misguktodandthepatrtotlctoraes MbiMer has not visited Punjab and Kash find themselves helpless. 273 JiKBudget 1991-92- BHADRA 23,1913 (&VC4) (J iK ). 1991-92 274 Gen. Disc. & Dem. for Grants [English] rest of the life. Similarly, Arttole 370 has become redundant now. It is necessary to They find themselves helpless. combat the spate of terrorism in Kashmir. [Translation} I recollect that I too parttoipated in the Sir, the budget introduced on behalf of debate on Kashmir during the Ninth Lok the Central Government reflects the help Sabha. The members of the ruling party lessness of the Government. There is no used to sit on this skle. Some of you have provision In the budget for creating a special become Ministers today, but those days task force, to combat tenvrism. Best per- they used to ask as to what was our policy, sonnelfromthe BSFthe CRPF andthe ITBP what was the poltoy of the Janata Dal Gov should be included in this force. There Is no ernment or National Front on Kashmir. You provision In the Budget for the rehabilitation have not spelt out your poltoy on the subject of lakhs of refugees who have migrated from till date. You have proved more ineffective there. They have lost ail their possessions than us. LHe is not secure in the VaRey. i.e. land, money etc. and where some of When the General Manager of H.M.T. Shri themstageadhamaat Delhi, you iathicharge H.K.L Khera was abducted by militants, he them. Some of them have settled in Jammu. was not rescued, he was shot dead the Refugees from the Kashmir Valley are not militantsbut when they kklnappedthedaugh- accustomed to the heat of the plains and ter of a Cabinet Minister the persons Gov have died due to exposure to heat. But I ernment release many terrorists to save her found in the budget that there is no provision life. At that time also we saki that that was for these refugees. It is for the first time in not proper course of action and it was a Independent India that people have become mistake on part of the Government and refugees in their own country. Your budget even the Congress Party raised a tot of hue is cpmpletely silent on the rehabilitation of and cry and sato that Janata Government refugees and in creating favourable atmos had taken a wrong step. Now, this Govern phere sothat they can return totheir houses. ment is also behaving in the same manner. Therefore, Sir, I would request you to make Many tenorists have been released to se necessary changes in this Budget for the cure the safe return of an official from their constitution of a task forces to combat ter custody. Whetherthe treasury benches have rorism andto take measuresforthe rehabili become salt mines? Whoever sits there tation of Kashmiri migrants and to provkie changes into salt. What is yourpolicy about facilities for their educatton, rations, and Kashmir? When you were on this skle you emptoyment till they return to their houses, sakJ something else and now when you are one of the points raised by nry party Is on the other skle you have conipleteiy generally opposed, it has been our persist changed your attitude. ent demand that Article 370 shoukJ t>e abro gated. The Kashmir problem cannot be his very suiprisfaig that friends betonging solved as long as. Article370is there, I know to other sMetiHtoday are apporttonbig blame that you wilt oppose it and Shri Ayub Khan on a parttoular Governor for all the amiss. woukJ not agree with me. You are entitled to May be his poUdes were not intune with your your opinton. But i and my party believe that p o li^ (kiterrvpilons) Agreed that terror Article 370 Is responsible for the feeling of ism dkl gain ground during tenure tNit was separatism among the people there. And Kashmir free from all the troubles eariler? If many of your hon. member have admitted you instigate, us, we win also come down prtvateiy In the Central HaBthat we are right upon you. Once when your patty dM not but they have expressed their helplessness. have cordial relaltons with National Confer You are caught in a victous circle; you must ence and ShrimaU Imfira Gandhi went to think for a whHe in natkmal Merest. As Srinagar to address a pubflc meeting, some ragante the issue of special status for Kash people behaved In avery shameful manner. mir, I wouM Hketo Mustrate it with an exam- They took off their ctothes. You had re pto. When somebody meets with an acci moved Farooq Abdullah’s Government, the dent. the fractured wm Is plastered. But same Farooq Abdullah with whom you afMr seme time, when the bone has healed wanted to inWMe the poiMcal process, and the platter Is removed. R Is not kepi for the had made Gutaun Mohammad Shah the 275 J i K Budget 1991-92- SEPTEMBER 14,1991 (JSK). 1991-92 276 Gen. Disc, i Dem. for Grants [Prof. Pra m DhumaQ Kashmir. Everybody wants that peace and normalcy shouU be rsstorsd there. My hon. Chief Minister because you wanted some friends have referredtcapart leu tar Article of Mlnlstertal posts for your men In the Council the Constitutton. It Is a stogan of BJP. of Ministers. At that time Farooq Abdullah became triatorforyou but the same person SHRi DAU DAYAL JOSHi (Kofe): It Is became patriot after he compromised with not a slogan but a stark rsaHty. you. This criterion that person towing your Une Is patriot and a person following diflerent SHRI AYUB KHAN: One of ourfriend in Ideolciigy is a traitor should be given up. the course of debate said something about During the past 40 years, under the Con cow but when he was refrained he dM not gress rule fMvty’s interest was always given mentkm It any further. These things have edge over national Interest The leaders of becomeamatterofthepastWeshouM not the party always preached and deliberately think In terms of disintegrlting but we shoukl took wrong decisions at times In the intersst think In terms of uniting. We shouU create of the party. an atmosphere of amity and brotherhood. Our endeavour shouM be to unMe Hindus I would Hke to request you that now at and Muslims. Ait these Issues arecreatkM) of least give up your party’s Interest for the (>andlt8 and MauMs. We have not come sake of the nation and formulate some such from outsMe, we betong to thie country. We policy that Kashmir remains an Integral part were bom and brought up hers. Ouraiwes- of the country. We an» receiving bonifying tors Pitthvlraj Chavan and Medara^ Chavan reports about Kashmir. You may be receiv niled at Derara a place in Hlsar. We are ing Information from various sources but prepared to shed our btood for the country baring a few reports from where and there, and If you doubt our integrity how wHI sKua- media is the only source of Informatkm for tkm inprove. us. Appropriate actton Is not being taken on the iMSis of these reports. Since the State is PROF. PREMOHUMAL:Not wears not under Prssklenrs Rule we have no alterna doubling your integrity. tive except to pass the J ft K budget SHRI AYUB KHAN: Terrorist should be I woukf ike to draw your attention once dealt with sternly and they shoukl be shot again to the feet that we had hoped that dead in the mUdle of the road but those who Government wlH apply Its mind on problems are loyal to this country shouU not be vlctkn- concerning refugees and miilants and wW ised. They shoukl not be punished and what make separate proviskMi for dealing with right you have to sewe them with punWi- these problems but It has failed to do so. ment is It proper to aeaich their houses and to pul out their women f ok? Is it the r i ^ WKhthese words Iconckide and hope treatment wRh the toyai people? People dto Oovemment wHI evolve a natkxnl policy for in polloe custody there. The Governor Is Kashmir so as to put an end to the untoki nnitw>rnhl> for dMths in oolte custody. misertes and sufferings that the people of The people there ehouM not be sul^ecled to Kashmir m undeigoing. atrocities In by Imposkig Article 370 and by raising the b o ^ of Hindue and MueRms.AI SHRIAYUBKHAN(Jhunjhunu):Madam chairperson I am very grateful to you for the anti-national elements there shouM be giving me an opportunity to m piwa shot down. Are al the people In Kash- views on this Bill. I agree with Prof.Dftumul mfrtraitorB? There may be people wfw had on several points, particularly with respect made aacrffioea ftor the countiy. I «i«s In to the polcy about Kaslunlr. Our polcy Kashmirduringthe1965and1071 Mo4>ak •houki be made known to Msrybody. One oonfltet and I dM not find any KashmM who has been bom and brought up in thie •Dvkio for PiMitan Anybody hobnobbina country and has k>ve for the naiton can wHi pakMan is a M tor. The matlani came ns¥Pf iM i nflppy ovvfuwsuni Qi wiwfv in te this pass due to rampentcorruptton there. 277 J&KBu<^at 1991-92- BHADRA23,1913(SAKA) (J&K), 1991-92 278 Gen. Disc. & Dem. for Grants No Government tried to check it. I visited deploy anny in Kashmir in any case, if the Kashmir several times during rry tenure as need arises, the Govemment shouU send Member of Parliament from 1984-1989. I poitoe force, CRPF there. The army shouM went there several times as an observer of be used for the protectton of our borders ourorganisation and regarding the selection only. The anmy shouM be used to check of PCA. Prof. Dhumal has given an account infiltration of the terrorists from across the of the people living In Jammu and Laddaich. border. The use of army In civilian areas i want to inform him that we aie 20 cioies wouklaffecttheirmoraie. iwouMliketourge Muslims, in India and not a single secretary upon you to review the performance of our is Muslim and their representation in the police department, it has come to my services is not even one percent. You have khowiedge that thousnads of people face Involved us In Masjid graveyard and Daigah difficulties there. People after abandoning disputes. In case the MusHm community their houses are living in forests. The police does not get education whose fault it is? Is takes away their valuables but they cannot It not the responsibility of the Government to utter a word against them. What is their look after its dtizens provide them educa- fault? It is the terrorists who are commuting ttonandtobringthem with the national main- crimes, they are traitors. But the whole stteam. If they do not feel part of the main community cannot be blamed for that I am stream whose fault It is? The Government also a Muslim. Our shariat and religion teach must protect the life and property of its us that a MusHm can never be a traitor. A citizens. The Government must rise above Muslim is not a Muslim if he works against party interest and shouM not adopt the the interests of his country. This is our carrot and stick policy to catch votes. The history. Today I feel proud of being a Muslim situation In Kashmir is a separate issue, it Is but that does not mean that I shouU dis our,collective responsibility as the txidget is criminate between Hindu and MusNms and being passed in this House. Late Shrl Rajiv it is the command of Allah that we shouU Gandhi had announced that out Rs.100 love our brethren, be they Muslims or Hin earmarked by Government; Fto. 15 are ac dus. If I speak kivlngly and respectfuly tually utilised. This is a fact, in Kashmir not others too wouM respond In the same spirIL even 15 rupees are utHlsedchOdren In the 5- Even after 40 years of Independence, we 6 years age group row small botrts with their arecaught In the webof temple and mosque. parents to out living. Is it not the responsi- bHHy of the Govemntent to provkle them I wouM urge upon the Government to educatkm? Had that money been spent on frame a policy on Kashmir and alkiw the them, the Government wouUhave provided pubHc representatives there toshare power. meals to them tai tenth dass. How long can the Governor's Rule con tinue? Unless and until the public repre I agree wKh Prof. Dhumal that the refu sentatives participate in the public adminls- gees from Kashntir shoukl be kMked after tratton, they wouki not be able to know the by the Government. Is It not the responsMI- reafity. Members of this House shouM go ity ofthe Govemment? They are not outsM- ers. It is not necessary that only BJP men there to aassess the real situation. Those shouU raise this Issue. Kisourresponstollly who pose to be patriots shouWalsogothere. also. They are our brothers. Tfiey belong to We wouW also accompany them. They our country. We shouM welcome them. ShouU assess the real sltuatkm there, and Through you I appeal to the honourable diseuss the Issue in the House. It is a matter M fM er to send members of Parlament to of great pleasure thataveryddandeapaMe Kashmir. Why does not the Honne Minister friend, Shri George Femandee, Is preaent go to Kashmir? We must make on the spot amongst M...{tnt0rruption^ , tludy in Kashmir and should not depend on the informattenbeingsuppliedby other agen- PROF. PREM DHUMAL: He Is young, dee. I wouW urge the Government not to not old. 279 J & K Budg^ 1991-92- SEPTEMBER 14,1991 (J i K). 1991-92 280 Gan. Disc. & Dem. tor Grants [Sh.AyubKhan] provkled by Indian Government. Nothing Is bebig done there. Something shouM be St«)IAYUBKHAN:lnthefield of politics done. I have gone to that area. Ther are no he is quite old. We are not as well informed roads and drains; the streets are dirty. They crave for roads and lanes. None of the regardig Kashmir as he is. I have also been there for quHe a long period. I lived in Governments have done anything f orthem. Chhamb Jorlan for ten yeare. I know every Of the every hundred rupees provkled. Only inch of that area and Itsculture. Idonotwant Rs. S/- have reached there. The remaining to convnent on the causes and also, which money has been pocketed by the officials. Government Is responsble for this deterio TTtroughyou, I wouU Ike to appeal to those rating situation but I would Ike to submit that responsible in Government to provkle pro whatever is happening them Is wrong. You tection to the people there. I wouM like to appeal to those responsible ki Government must find a permanent solution to the prob lem. Question of Hindu or Muslim has never to provkle protectkm to the people there. I come up In Kashmir nor would it ever arise, wouM like to know as to how four persons have died In died in police custody and also ff at all it has arisen, it was due to some the actton taken by Government in this misunderstanding. We must put an end to It. It is the responsibility of our Government to regard. Further, how many cases of corrup- protect the Interests of the refugees and tk>n and misappropriatton Mtvebeen brought make armagements fortheir return to Kash- to your notice and what actton has been n«ir. taken in this regard? After all they are citi zens of this country and as such it is our duty Mr. Chairman, Sir, I betong to that sec- to convince them that no injustk» wouM be tkm of society which nourishes feeling of commlted against them. Actton shouM be kweforthe Hindus. It has been reported that taken only against the terrorists and traitor, ythe Hindus have been evacuated from not against the whoto community. It Is not thereto wipe out Muslims here. Under such Justified to ste the whoto mohaila on fire for circumstances doubts win cieep In even In one num's wrong activities. I woukl appeal true toyallsts minds. We must frame such that eduction system shouM be improved. policies that may help In clearing all doubts. We have not been abto to change our edu- We have been bom here and this Is our catton policy, if only we go on studying the country. I wouM Uke to quote few lines from history of Mughals and EngRsh, we wouM apeom:- not be alito to bnprove ourthlnklng. We must pureue an educatton policy which Is emptoy- “Cheen Arab Hamara, Hindustan ment-ortonted and Is hel^ul in eradicating Hamara, poverty of the tocal peopto. We miwt create Hhdi hak) ham, Vatan hai, Sara Jahan atmosphere conducive to tourist activities. Hamara." Tourism is their main source of eaminlg and tourists have stopped going there now-a- Today, we must woric on this. Electtons days. We have to thtok of provkling them shouW not overshadow other thkigs. We alemathre means of livelihood. Unemptoy- must not create bMemess. It is a very meitt and poverty tend to make youth rest sensitive matter.We must bind each other less. The result is that they gradually turn to with tove and affectkm. i wouU Hke to appeal that we shouU now put an endtothecomip- M we want to save this oountiy ail tkm there. Government funds must not be these factore have to be taken Into oonskl- misused. That money shouU not go to the eratton. At the same time, we nNMt not do pocksis of staff membeni and offtoem there. any thing which creates provocative atmosphere. We must woric for the unly on Some kwtliulkMi shouM be sat up which Megrf^ of the country. We nwst send a shouM impart educat km to the ctiiMren there signal of secularism, from here and ShouM uptolenth standard. The chHdren shouU be loonvey that we want to llva In spirit of provided free educatkxii and free food so brotherhood. We respect the temple In am they nwy realse that akl hat been ttie same spMt as we respect the moeque. 281 JSKBudgel 1991-92- BHADRA23, 1913 (SAM) (J & K). 1991-92 282 Gan. Disc. S Dam. tor Grants Why shoulb we fight and Sir, the sovereignty and integrity of the SHRi VUAY NAVAL PATIL(EransoO: I country are not negotiable and it should be request that the hon. Members who are made very dear to pakistan. All efforts goingto speak on the Budget to have pity on shouMbemade to find out a solution to this us and the hon. Minister who is sttUng here issue within the framework of the Constltu- for almost 12 hours. tkm byhaving diatoguewith these people. Another disquieting feature is that the politi MR. CHAIRMAN: I request the hon. cal parties, unfortunately, are becoming ir Members to shorten their sp«ech and to t>e relevant in Jammu and kashmir. They shouM very brief. have the guts to start the Poiitk»l process there and the tenorlsts shoukJ be firmly Shri George Femandes. P ’ranstetlon] dealt with. The people of kashmir should be motlvalsd and shouM be toM that we cannot afford to k)se kashnnir. The entire para- SHRI GEOROE FERNANDES militaiy forces shouU be used to contain :(MuzaffarpuO : Mr. Chairman. Sir, it was better that the hon. Minister of Home wouM terrorism there and at the same time, aH have been here during this discusskNi on the efforts shouW be made to bring them back to normal We. Kashmir issue. Merely, the hon. Finance Minister's acceptance or rejectkxi of any proposal made here in regard to Kashmirwin Then, another suggesUon is that some not do much because this issue is a bk •eats should be reserved forkaskmirstu- compficated. The Members thin attendance wnw in viiginMriny ana mBaic^ C0ii8y9S In in the House at this time paiticulaily those of dMWents States of our country and some my own party is a matter of regrM. Them are pereeMape of Jobe In pubUe sector under 291 J & K Budget 1991-92- SEPTEMBER 14,1991 (J & K), 1991-92 292 G»n. Disc. & Dem. for Grants Parliament in a number of other countries in the ouild, the session of which sometimes SHRIGEORGE FERNANOES:Thathas continues even during the whole night. I gone on record. It has been published not have seen myself that the proceddings of once but many times In almost all the News the House of commons continued upto 3-4 papers of this country. I am not concemed O' dock In the nbight with all the members here with that controversy. This Is not a present In the House because they are bery matter of controversy. At this moment I do much concemed about the problems of their not want to hoM any discussion on that. nsAUm....{lntem^ions) They take interest in the affairs of their country. Since they MR. CHAIRMAN: Please confine your have a deep sense of concern about the speech to the budget of Kashmir and give problems of their country, they never take your suggestiojs in that regard. theh^ responsibuiuties in a light manner, and do not conskier their parliament a place of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: What is making noise. there to speak on the budget of Kashmir because at presentthe Valley is resounding Mr. Chairman, Sir, first of all I wouM like with the boomig guns which is taking a heavy to rementer Shri and Smt. Vakloo in this toll of human lives. There, on the one hand House, who are in the custody of the mili our jawans are being killed and on the other tants these days. Remembering them here our ci.ildren are being taken away by death in the House, ail of us shoukl make an : So, what is to be discussed there on that appeal for their release as we! as the re budget Whatdevek>pment isgoing onthere, lease of ail others who are there In the on which we shoukl discuss here? Just now, custody of the militants whom I call an hon. Member, Shri Ayub Khan who Is InsurrectkMiesis. I would alM to con perhaps not present at this time In the House gratulate one ol the highest offioerB of the had sakf that he as wen as others must be Indian OH Coroporatkm, Shri Dvral Swamy given permission to visit those areas. I do on his release after his one and half month’s not understand as to what is the need of detentkm by these tent>rists. After his re getting pem«ission to visit that State. We can lease he narrated his experiences of living go there whenever we like It. In fact there Is with them. He also expressed hte hope that no obstructton In it because that is the part V we IwM diatogues with the youth of that or our own country. No one has every area who have become militants today may stopped us from going there. But the people make furthe progress on the Kashmir Issue. think that condlttons are not favourable for I do not know whether the hon. Home Min the same. So what kind of discussion shoukl ister has made any effort to contact and talk be there on this budget. Mr. Chairman, Sir. to then through Shri Durai Swamy who However, in case you insist on It I wouW express only my disappolrrtment on this might havedevetopedakind of intimacy with budget because the maximum amount of them during his 40-45 days detentton be altocation has been sought to be provUed cause after his release he has saU that he forthe Jail department. Last year an amount was ready to extant aH his co-opeiilkm to to the tune of Rs. 2 crores 21 lakhs had been improve the sitution in that Stale. Sir,IwouW aHocated whereas the current year's alloca- not llw to repeat all those things here. tkm is Rs 3 crores 90 lakhs. It is Rs. 1 crore and 70 lakhs over and at>ove the above the (M errufittom ) previous year's altocatkm. It means that 7075peieent more amounthas been sought THEMINISTEROFSTATEINTHE MIN to be provUed for the Jails. But on the other ISTRY OF FINANCE (SHRI SHANT- RAM hand, the amount of Rt. 29 crores and 9 POTDUKHE):HehasdeniedltthathewoiM lakhs has been soughtfor the housing and tafc to them. He says that he has never sakl urtMn devetopment whereas the aloealk>n these words. forthe same was Rs. 38 crores and 38 lakhs 293 J& K Budget 1991-92- BHADRA 23.1913 (SM *Notraooi MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Bhogendra Jha, The motion was adopted. they were not moved. Otheiwise, what is the necessity for me to say that. As per rules, SHRI SHANTARAN POTDUKHE: I bi- you cannot move them now. troduce the Bill. (Interruptions) SHRI SHANTARAN POTDUKHE: I beg to move. MR. CHAIRMAN: The questions is: That the Bill to authorise payment Thatthe respective sums not exceeding and appropriation of certain sums from the amounts on Revenue Account and Capi and out of the Consolidated Fund of tal Account shown in the Fourth Column of the State of Jammu and Kashmir for theOrderPaper, begrantedto the president the services of the financial year 1991 • out of the Consolidated Fund of the State of 92, be taken into consideration*. Jammu and Kashmir to complete the sums necessary to defray the charges that will MR. CHAIRMAN : The question Is. come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March. 1992, in That the Bin to authorise payment respect of the heads of Demands entered in and appropriation of certain sumsfrom the second column thereof against Demands and out of the Consolidated Fund of 1 to2r. the State of Jammu and Kashmir for the services of the financial yearl 991- The Motion Was Adopted. 92, be talcen into consideration’. The motion was adopted. JAMMU AND KASHMIR MR. CHAIRMAN: The House wW now APPROPRIATION (N0.3) BILL* 1991 take up dause-by-dause consktoradon of theBHL The questton is: HEn^hJ That Clause 2,3 and the Schedule THEMINISTEROFSTATEINTHE MIN * PubHshed in Gaz The motion was adopted Clauses 2,3 and Schedule were added to the Bill 23.53 hrs MA. CHAIRMAN: The question Is. VOLUNTARY DEPOSITSS (IMMUNITIES AND EXEMPTIONS) BILL* "That Clause 1, the enacting formula and the long Title stand part of the [EngliSh) Bill." THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI The motion was adopted MANMOHAN SINGH): Sir, I beg to move: •..i Clauses 1,the Enacting Formulaandthe "That the Bill to provide for certain I Long Title were added to the Bill Immunitles to persons making volun- tary deposits with the National Hous- ., Ing Bank and for certain exemptions SHRI SHANTARAM POTDUKHE: Sir,l from direct taxes in relation to such beg to move: deposits and for matters connected there with or Incidental thereto, be "That the Bill be passed". taken into consideration." MA. CHAIRMAN: Motion moved: MA. CHAIRMAN: Motion moved: "That the Bill be passed". "That the Bill to provide for certain . Immunities to persons making voluntary 11 SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY deposits with the National Housing Bank (Katwa) : Now at this fag-end, I have only and for certain exemptions from directtaxes one question to put before the Minister, that in relation to such deposits and for matters \_ isabout the HMT employees. Afterwe raised connected therewith or Incldentlal thereto, the point, they have been readjusted to be taken Into consideration." •.' many other areas. But from the cofT1llaint they have made before us, It seems that There are certain notices of arnend- ~ they are being demoted. The equivalent ments to the Motion for Consideration by post Is not given to them. So, they are In some of the Hon. Members. Now, Shri Oau disgrace.They arecoming everytime. Please DayalJoshi. consider their case. The Finance Minister and the Industry Minister are there. Kindly (Translation) look into their problem sympathetically. SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHl (Kota): Mr. SHRI SHANTARAM POTDUKHE: I will Chairman, I beg to move: l look into It. "That the bill be circulated for the 1 MA. CHAIRMAN: The equation Is: pumpose of eliciting opinion there on till 25th February, 1992".(2) "That the Bill be passed." * Published In the Gazatte of India extraordinary, Part 11, Section 2, dated 14.9.91. 325 Voluntary Deposit BHADRA 23, 1913 (SAKA) Bill 326 (Immunities & Exemptions) [English] age the generation of black money In con- nivance with tax evade are also responsible SHRI SRIKANTA JENA(Cuattack): Sir, for its generation. I would like the Chelliah we can pass it on Monday. There Is no Committee to consider all the points relating problem. W.hy is the Finance Minister very to tax structure and the functioning of vari- keen forthis?(lnterruptions) Let us not pass ous tax departments. Sales tax is quite an this black Bill at midnight. Intricate and complex Issue, and the shop- keepers evading sales tax do not even pay (Interruptions) income tax, for fear of being caught despite large earnings. Persons evading excise- [Translation] duty also do not pay income tax, even though they want to pay it but they don't do SHRI BHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT so for fear of being caught. After evading (Agra): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I beg to move: excise-duty he cannot pay income tax also. Therefore I submit that we will have to '1hat the bill be circulated for the pur- formulate such financial police as may dis- pose of eliciting opinion thereon by courage generation of black money. This 30th December, 1991."(3) will be done only when our entire tax-struc- ture would be scientific and there is no scope SHRI GIRIDHARILAL BHARGAVA of tax evasion. If tax structure Is simplified (Jaipur): Mr. Chairman, Sir, i beg to move: then there will be no scope for tax evasion. For rationalising tax structure high rates of "That the bill be cirulated for the pur- taxation should not be considered as reme- pose of eliciting opinion thereon by dial step. The race, the competition for high 12th December, 1991."(4) rates of income tax and other related taxes, will have to be slowed down. Once tax structure is rationalised and tax rates re- 23.57 hrs duced, then qefinltely people will pay taxes and tax evasion will stop. Though sales tax [MA. SPEAKER InThe Chair] is a state subject but in order to check generation of black money and inter-sate SHRI BHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT: smuggling of goods I would like the Ministry Sir, In order to make the voluntary deposits of Finance to take initiative and call a meet- scheme a success, this Bill has been brought Ing of the Chief Minister and State Finance forward to unearth black money which is a Ministers for restructuring sales tax so that stigma on our economy and is shattering it. there is uniformity In rates of sales tax in all The hon. Minister has come forward with his the states. proposal to convert black money into white money so that It may be put to use for Since the sales tax rates in Uttar Pradesh nation's development. I have no objection to in comparison to the saies tax rates In Delhi it but what I object to is the generation of are higher, the evasion of sales tax takes black money. Unless the tax structure is place. So, In order to check generation of streamlined and simplified the generation of black money the Central Government should black money will go on unchecked. assume leadership on the issue of rational- Ising tax structures as sales tax is also <, On many an occasion such voluntary important in tax structure. An alternative deposits schemes have been introduced for arrangement for abolishing sales tax may unearthing black money. But it hurts the be thought our in consultation with the States. feelings of those who do not believe in black Iwill go to an extent to submit that if need be, money and are law-abiding. Such move is the constitution me be amended may abol- also painful to the persons who face harass- ishing sales tax but the dabbling with coun- ment at the hands of income tax officials and try's economy should be stopped. othertax officials. The officials who encour- 327 Voluntary DeposH SEPTEMBER 14.1991 BUI 328 (Jmmunities & Exemptions) Sh. Bhagwan Shanker Rawat] black money Into white money after every 4 or 5 years to overcome financial crisis. Therefore to find a permanent solution to 24.00 h n . thte problem, there is a need to strike at the root of generation of black money. In the end I would Ute to submit that the rate of 40 percent is quite reasonable. Sir, With these words I oppose the Blit Vol through you, I would Ike to submit that the untary Deposit and converston of i»lack utilisation of unearthed black money in con money into with money are welcome, but the structing houses for the poor In the country lacuna of the Bill Is that it does not have any is welcome but the hon. Minister of Finance provision for plugging generating source of has made a bit haste in the matter. I do not black money. With these words I conclude want to repeat ail that I stated earlier. Yes my speech. terday I went through news reports about hawala which might have come to the notice SHRI VILAS MUTTEMWAR (Chimur): the hon. Minislerof Finance.ThR>ugh hawaia Mr. Speaker, Sir, now It Is 12.00 O’ Ctock agency money is being got converted into and the night is getting dariter. At present we foreign exchange on payment of 20 per cent are discussing black money and nrteasures amount The Foreign Remtttances Bin Is to curb it.Thehon.Ministerhastakenastep Hkely to be passed and the people of India to curb black money and for that purpose and the Government of India think it fortu made a provision for the disck>sure of black nate that the foreign exchange is ftowing in money. I think the present step is In fulfil Into the country. Then why wouM one pay 40 ment of the promise made by the Hon. per cent there. I know that some poor and Minister of Rnance in his budget speech to mkkfle dass persons, who might have In check black money. dulged in petty evastons, wouki be able to gM their money converted but by bringing Sir, my colleague hastomadeamentton forward this Foreign Remittances Bill we of the Cheliiah Committee just now andtoM have k>st that opportunity. All the big tax that as per the last report of the Committee evaders are getting their black money con the magnitude of black money is of the order verted in foreign countries. Therefore, of nearty Rs. 36.000 crore but as per the through you, I wouU like to submit to the latest report the figure has reached to Rs. Finance Minister to reduce this 40 per cent 80,000crore. In this wayaparaiiel economy to 20 per cent or 25 percent or at least 30 is playing havoc in the country. Ail of us must peioent which has became a very competi express our concern and anive at aconsen- tive market My apprshension Is that If the sus and take strbigent steps to curb black rate is not reduced, then scheme will be a money. failure, olhenwise It wW yieM good results and Mack money can be unearthed. My Recently new economic poHcy, new In submisskH) Is that the present proviskM) has dustrial poHcy and new trade policy were rssuBed In multiplicity of provlskins. As per announced. Through these policies licens tiroadestlmatosoleconomists black money ing and quota systems were sought to be consHtules 50 percent of our economy. But discontinued. These policies were wklely IwouMHke to lay stress once again that If the and vehemently welcomed and It was ex black money Is to be utilised Tor naitonai pressed that disoontinuatton of licensing devetopment, the sources of generation of andquota systems wouktcurbUack money. black money wH have to be plugged com IwouMllwto submit that II is the responsl- pletely. These patch work measurw wW not blllly of all of us to take into account the black do and discourage law abkflng persons and money that Is already In exlstenoe. I wouM encourage corrupt law vtolating indMduals. like to submit, with regard to the scheme of They wM tMflk that the Government of India national davaloomanl and houaina in which comes up with such schemes for converting 40percent money wHI be Invested, thatthe 329 Voluntary Deposit BHADRA23,1913 (S>4/C4) Bill 330 (Immunities i Exemptions) sta tus of the society is going down day l>e would have borne good results. Still there is day and we have some responsibility to time, and I wouM suggest the Government wards that. Tax policy and taxation rates are to encourage people to invest their 100% so high that people are evading taxes result black money in setting up industries for ing in generation of black money in the industrial growth in remote areas without country. To curb t)lack money It Is desired any fear of being questioned about the that a correct policy may be formulated in sources of investnwnt. In this manner black this regard enabling people to pay taxes money can be utilised. I hope that the hon. straight away as well as tocurb blade money. Finance MinisterwouMcertalnly experiment and bring forward such proposals next time. Secondly, through National Housing If the scope of utilization of black money is Development Banit, houses will be con extendedto the scheme of National Housing structed for poor people living in slums. Sir, Devetopment Bank and for augmenting irri would like to submit that there should be gation facilities; it woukl be good step with complete utiiistation of the available re these words I support it. sources in the country and our future plan s shouMbe implemented strictly and the money utilised in productive activities in the days to SHRIBHOGENDRAJHA(Madhu bani); come. Money should be utilised in slum Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do know that as per areas to provkle houses to the poor people. Gregorian journal tt is morning and as per If we have to achieve the foodgrain target of Indian joumal it is night ...... (Intenvptlons). 24 crore tonnes by the year 2000, we will The Govemment of India has taken the havetopay attentionto irrigation. Whenever Partiamentwiththemtobegforblacknmney we have discussed Irrigation issue, we have from the black marketers. We have failed to found that every State is finding itself unable check the generatton of black money and to complete its irrigation schemes and if also to detect and apprehend the black black money is utilised for that purpose it marketeers. Those who have black money woukJ be a productive work. are being accused of having committed theft and therefore 60% of their black money will After the second work! were when the be legalised and 40% have will have to economy of France was completely ruined, forego. It is a sort of insult to Govemment the Government of that country adopted a power. The he^lessness of the present poltoy under which black money was al- Govemment has been proved and they kmed to be invested In setting up new have openly come out to seek pariiament industries in backward slum and undevel approval for it. it pinches us very much. We oped areas. The Government declared that talk of law and order in the country and a those who set up industries in such areas number officials have been appointed for wouM not be questtoned about the sources this purpose. It woukl be a matter of dis of their investment. The concessions pro grace to us if we pass this bill and also if we vided in our country are similar to those do not do it. Black money is continuously provkled there. People In that country were swelling and it has taken the shape of par given liberty to set up any industry they allel economy hence more generation of wanted and were assured of tax exemptton t>lack money. Some of an hon. Members in future and of proviston of all kinds of were pleading for tax exemption. Genera faculties. Sinnilarexpeifment in our country tion of black money will not stop even If a too ntay prove beneficial. According to last single penny is not charged as tax. Instead Industrial Policy. The subskty and other of investing money in productive works he conoesskNis being provMed eariierto set up invests in goki and becomes rtoher even If industries in backward areas were cut down. he produces nothing. Inflecation has been Had the Government taken measures simi increasing continuously. The prtees of gokl lar to those taken by the Government of andsiiverarerisinghigh.Withoutproducing • France at that time the Industrial poOcy anything the investor becomes richer. 331 Voluntary Deposit SEPTEMBER 14,1991 Bill 332 (Immunities i Exemptions) (Sh. Bhogendra Jha] Government want the black money logo, a time Hmit should be fixed to deposit the fIVe hundred njpee currency notes thereafter Public money may go waste but they these notes shouM cease to be legaltender. would certainly get his proftt. Under this The people will devise ways to escape this financial poOcythe investment in proflteerlng, thing. Theywiii distribute thesenoles among black money, smuggling fetch more profit many people. If they do so some money will than Investing, money In any productive have to be distributed. That cannot be done work. Because if they invest their money in free of cost, after all they wHI have to pay productive work they wouM not get an something for this. The Govemment shouM opportunity to purchase lands or gold to make the production more profitable. Some become richer. Investment in productive punishment shouM also be prescribe Mr. work can neutraNse the effects of black Speaker. Sir it has been saM in regard to money. Mere tax exemption wHI not do. If Parasuramji- iaboupers are associated in increasing pro- ductton. IfeelalithemoneywoukJbeutiHsed 'Agrata Chaturo Veda Prishthta on labourers and the ialMurers wouM not be Sasharo Ohanu, retrenched. Othenvise that black money Mam Shastram. Mam Shaastram. would generate more black money. The Shaapdeep Sharadj^ hon. Finance Minister has sakJthat If money is invested in productive work the investor It means that Parasunmam ji had mas wiH become prosperous but only afterfacing tered Vedas and perfected himself in arms abtt difficulty. My submission istolnvestthis i.e.for him both had equal importance. Ac money in productkm and removethedispertty cording to him if the people are asked to do in productton of different areas and increase a pai1k»iar thing and if they do not do that the production of such commodtties which convince then and if they still day. use arms are in scarcity and have to be Imported from against them. othercountries. Investment ofthis money in productive works in such areas wHI t)e more MR. SPEAKER: RighL profitable othenvise the money thus con cealed will be misused. In this way money SHRI BHOGENDRA JH A : Is the wil not be concealed. In the same context govenment ready to do something against dtecusskm was held earlier. Can the Gov them or not? Has the Govemment any hoM ernment think to compel people to deposit of on the black money hoMers? Has the black one hundred rupee andflve hundred rupees money hokters any careforthe Govemment ciwrency notes and these notes wiloease to power in India? Though the Govemment be legal tender after lapse of particulartime. have fixed the Time iimH for this concesston Keeping in view the present infiatton the upto DecentieiSI but the due left enlvens peo^can be compelled to deposit onlyfive the possbilHy of the time limit being « ( - hundred rupee notes. Thosewrho have whke tended. A number of former Finance Minis money win not find it dilficuR to do so; they ters. Morarli was one of themi advanced wM deposit and that wW be taken Into ac these conceeskMK but the result was only count Has the Government any guts to do despair. Because the black money hoMen so? If not, that means Government favoure are of the view that govemment of India. Its generalton of black-money.Wk already had main factor potties and mam newspapere an expetfenceL This time in the electtons are their slaves and they cannot take any crores of rupees were spent In my oonstku- actkm against thera Therefore, they are encytodefeatacandMata. Ido not have the Indi4ging in their acOvWes bokMy. The Gov detals. Does the Government want the ernment shouU at least declare in the House black money to contimie in the form of five todqr that they have arms as weM as poHcy. hundred n^)ees cunrency notes and some They have the law and they we also ready leaders mqr have that Wack nKNiey. IT the to Impose penalty. The Govemment ehouid 333 Voluntary DoposH BHADRA 23,1913 (SM(A) Bill 334 (ImmunHios i Exemptions) go ahead with both and make them effective money depositor bek>ngs and he shouM be after 31st December. I^xt Budget Is to be made to invest that 60% money returned to presented after six months. The Govern him in that scheme. He may set upacottage ment should prove to the t>lack money hold industry or a factory there. ers prior to presenting the Budget that the Govemment is an elected one and its inten bi this connedion, one shouM write to tions are dear. They are sincere and also the concerned State Govemment that he have powers so that the black money hokl- intends to bivest 60% amount In Hotel busi ers shouM feel that the conditions are unfa ness or in some other professton, so be vourable to them. The bill you want to bring shoukf get free land and amenities Hke water forward must be ready and the hon. Mem and eledrteity. In this manner, while 40% of bers can and wHI be prepared to sit even the amount wIN go for housing forthe poor, upto 10 ’ ckick bi the night to pass the Bin I the rest 60% win also be spent in develop hope that he Minister wHI not evade these mental work. It Is my humMe sutMnission to questions and will give dear reply In this the Govemment that it shoukl dired the regard. State Governments to provkle land free of cost and also water eledricity fadlities to SHRI GIRDHRI LAL BHARGAWA those Interested in investing their money in (Jaipur); Mr. Speaker, Sir, my only submis- the hotel Industry. ston in this regard te that though the efforts made by the hon. Minister are sincere but Thirdly, I wouM flke to submit that a the Govemment have no way out to extrad piDviston shouki be made under whk^ the the black nwney. Now the Govemment is 40% Mackmoney deposited by a person in encouraging the blacfc money hokJers to the Nattonal Housing Bank shoukJ be uti come foiward and deposit the black money. lised for the development of shims and for 40% of that twin go to the exchequer and low-cost housing projeds in that area, to 60% will go to the hoMer. But who will which the depositor betongs. If you make disdose his black money? For that the any such proviston, it wouM enaMe us also Govemment wIN have to give some Incen to ^rsuade the people living in our area and tive. N no incentive is ghwn and his efforts possessing Mack money to invest 60% of may be sincere but the Finance Minister will their money in some industry and the rest for not be abletoextrad the black money.Now. the welfare of poor people living in his area. the Government for making financial provi- I believe that this wouM be a very positive skms for clearing the slum areas and for step. I am certain that you wW k>ok into my provMIng houses to the poor, this 40% of suggesttons. I also doni see any ultetlor black money wM be utilised and 60% win go motive behind the introduction of this BUL back to the depositor. This is what all the Yourot^edive seems to be sincere and It is true that Macknwney cant be unearthed t>y people are saying and this is also the view of force. Here, the Govemment Itself has set a a separate committee that at present black deadline tor people to bring out this Mack money worth 80 thousand crores of rupees money and assured them that no penal Is available in the country. Efforts wW have adton wouU be taken against them. I am to be made to extiad this money. My sub- confUent that If you give adequate pubBdty misskm Is that If the rate of Income tax to this scheme, you wM command the sup charged on the remaining 60% of the Mack port of the people as well as and we too wil money which is rfltumed, to him is reduced. be aMe to assist you in this by persuading It wouM work as an incentive for the Mack people interested in converting their Mack mooey hoUer and ha wM dtedose his Mack money into white nwney. These are the money. suggesttons that I want to give to the Gov emment through you. My second submlsskin Is that the gov- ammaM should certainly formulate a na SHRI OAU DAYAL JOSHI (Kda): Hon. tional scheme In the area to which the Mack Mr. Speaker. Sir. the Govemment is at least 335 Voluntary Deposit SEPTEMBER 14.1991 Bill 336 (Immunitms & Exemptions) [Sh. Dau Dayal Joshq *a] I don't remember the name very well, but when I was the Chairman of the Municipal making an endeavour to unearth black council, I had gone to Bombay with a group . money through the provisions of this Bill, of artists. When I talked to *. he said that he introduced by the hon. Minister of Finance I will issue receipt for a specified amount, but also agree with the views expressed by so will take a different amount. Hetoldthatthey many hon. Members that there is much would charge Rs. two lakhs for a day’s doubt about Its success. I do not think that programme, but woukJ issue a receipt for black nwney can be brought out through Rs. 50.000only. When I asked him asto how these means. Actually, this malady has the Municipal Council woukJ be able to ad become so deep-rooted that, as the hon. just the amount he dearly stated that his Members menttoned here, the black money houses was rakied (by tax officials) just five generated in the country tax exceeds our days back...... national Income of Rs. 80.000 crores. The prot>lemcan not betackled. if it is not nipped MR. SPEAKER: The names mentioned in the bud itself. This black money is spooling by the hon. Member won1 go on record. the whole of economy of the country and even then, the Government is unable to take SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI: Raids are any concrete step to curb this evH. It is a conducted of the places of small artists, but common feature that the people Illegally during 1986* used to charge Rs. 10 lakhs for occupy the land in the hope that It wIB be acting in one film Today, who doesn’t know regularised during election period. Six that Mr...... * takes Rs. 50 lakhs, while months before the electkms. announce- signing afilmcontract, but a very tow amount mentsara made to theeffect that the illegally is mentioned In the receipt Issued. occupied land in almost allthe States, will be regularised. Now, this has been going on MR. SPEAKER: Nobody’s name wHI go since 1960 and people too have t>een in on record. dulging in land-grabbing, without any check whatsoever. Today, the situation has dete SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI: This is a fact riorated to such an extent that inthe villages, known to one and all. It is not a sin to take even grazing grounds and land meant for anyone’s name. I am telling you a fact. ponds, are not spared because the land Everyone knows that the artists are pakl his grabbers know very well that once electtons amounts, whteh are not menttoned in the are due, the lands unlawfully occupied will receipts. The Government’s rigkj attitude be legularised. The situatton is so condu forces the people to indulge in such activi cive that habitual offenders are ruling the ties. If we raise the tax limit, we will be able roost Earlier also, we had launched several to check the generation of black money to a schemes to encourage people to bring out great extent. The Government shouk) raise black money, but they dklnl succeed. Even the Imfira Bond Scheme failed. It was also the tax Hmit. in proporttontothe rising prices. announced that no questions wffl be asked and no punitive actton wHI be taken against Secondly. I wouM like to submit that In this Bill, there Is proviston for grant of re those who come out with their money, wtthin wards to those people who impart Informa- a sUpulaled period, but in valn.The genera- tton regarding the people having black tkm of black nxKiey in the country Is Increas money. In this connection, I woukf llw to ing by leapeand bounds HkeSurasa’s mouth. mentton here that I have written to the My humble submisston is that the Qovem- concerned officials that the informers do not mentshouU take some momeffectlvesteps. get the rewards In time. I can dte three or apart from the proposed housing bank four such bistances. Now you can think of scheme. Almost aB the hon. Members urged the Government to raise the income tax yourself about the state of affairs. New bungatows and big shops are coming up Jn Intt. but these suggesttons went unheeded. ' Not recorded. 337 Voluntary Deposit BHADRA 23.1913 (SAKA) Bill 338 (Immunities S Exemptions) the capital. The income-tax officers do go to protect the interests of the black Qioney these places but the hon. Minister should holders who woukJ like to part with a portton ensure whatthey do there. No one pays any of their black' money for deposits in the attention towards the high rise buildings Nattonal Housing Bank in accordance with a coming up in the metropolitan cities. scheme to be formulated by the Bank. In conformity with the Budget proposals as As a result of this the rich are growing included in the Finance Bill, this Bill has t>een richer. My submission Is that the Govern- presented. The provisions of the Bill would nmnt should take it seriously and unearth whiten theblack money without check eating the black money. It does not appear to me the black money growth, The Govemment is that the Govemment is going to make any encouraging the black money hokJers. This nejor achievement through the National shows the nexus between the black money Housing Bank. Forthis, they will havetotake holders and the Govemment. certain effective measures. The rich are making money day in and day out. But we We are aware that the black money is a people who live in the lowest rung of the majoreconomicproblem. We are also aware society cannot do anything. As such, the of the fact that black money raises property Govemment will certainly have to take some and bullion values to absurd heights. It effective measures in this regard. raises consumers' goods prices. It distorts the desired distrK)utk>n of income and wealth. Just now one of our hon. friends was It distorts the production structure in favour saying that influence of black money goes of high income goods. It upsets all calcula on increasing in politics also. Elections are tions and estimates of savings and dispos becoming more expensive. In the coming able incomes. times, a petty wori Despite all these negative phenomena, So. I do express serious concern about the wai of the Government is surprisingly the efftoacy of unearthing Mack money by found la c k ^ in bringing the black money giving amnesty to the black money hokters hoMers to book and restrain them. What are as the Bin envisages various immunities and the reasons therefore? l.ther^ors,docharge concesstons. These provisions are seduc the Govemment of aiding and abetting the tive appeals. tNJt counterproductive in the black money people to further consofldate kmgrun. their position and enhance the volume of black money. Why the Amnesty measures have failed to act? It is because the major part of black TTie Sub-section e (iO of Section 2 of the weaRh is not hekJ in the form of money, but Bil provktes for crecfiting 40 percent of the bi the form of real estate, tiullion. Jewele ly depmit to a special fund created for financ- etc. and deposits in foreign banks. The cash kig shjm clearance and low cost housing for component of black money is relatively smdU. the poor. Further, when black money is actually The Sut>-section e (iiO of Section 2 of the used In profit making activities, the returns Bil provktes for crediting 60 percent of the are much higher than those of the bearer deposit to ttie depositor himself for servfaig bonds which dout)le themselves in five years his own purposes. and a ha> offer. Forty per cent of the black nxmey de Thirdly, anonimlty ki the case of bearer posit wM thus be invested for housing pur bonds Is an advanta^. But there are many poses. 60 per cent of the black money ways of disguising ownership when black deposit wll be payable to the depositor as money Is used to earn more black money whto money after a year. with a yieU rate of much move than 13 par cent a year. TMs scheme Is not entirely new. in 1956 Govemment introduced 60:40 scheme. It O ir experiences prove thattfie amnesty was a Voluntary Disctosure Scheme. Sixty schemes have not gone far in attracting perceflttax and 40 percent deposit in book. unoBCiafvQ vicofiiB or vi reifnporung in« winosaKpciieo of iieiBcwiioiwtweiyinior- in 1975, the Voluntary Oisctosura of eign banks. Income WeaBiOtdhianeewaspromulBated. The in fonign banks may not in 1980cametheNaUonaiOerenoeGoM •am inlM«at Bui such daposils are incraas- Bonds Gctiomo. Ing in thsirn|W« vaius wtti Ihs oonilnuous inl9ei Special Baanr Bonds came into dedne in ttie eKchange vahw of the indtan twlng. cumnqr. immuniHat «Mre granted to I 8w«p desk a n I their incoine. 341 Vt^mtaiy Defjosk BHAORA 23,1913 (SAKA) BU! 342 flnmunities & Exenpthns) Fufther, there is one important point to it IS high time to stiffen the penal provistons note. The bringing out of accumulated black against illegitimate incomes and tax eva- money wil have the same inflationary ef ston. The rules regarding btvotoing must be fects as plan financing through deficit in nx>re rigM. The ^fication of the rules duced money creation. This is dangerous. shoukl t>e made without favoritism and lax UMmateiy it wH tw ineffective when every ity. The political interference must be thing is calculated in real terms. stopped. If it becomes theoniy objective of getting To flush out the black money, it is im vesUblefunds, then the end can t>e achieved perative on the Govemment to implement by accelerating nrxmey supply. Why then to the recommendations of the R. G. CheBiah give in to the unaccounted money hoard group report. CheHiah Report Mentiried six ers? causes for black money generatnn. They are: falling moral standards; present taxa If the usefulnessof black money is openly recognisedandthere Isasopeninvitaitonto tion structure; govemment spending; eco such money to come, that will be an incen nomk: control; biflatton and weak deter tive to the earning of further black money. rence. Really the amnesty scheme envisaged Of an these causes the weak deterrance is an offer of special treatment. This is an assumes the greatest importance. The encouragement for earning more and more Govemment shoukl conskler these aspects money. deeply. On the basis of what I have pointed out. In conclusion, I wouM point out that lis the urgent need of the timetoprevent the unlike the prevtous amnesty offers, the growth of Mack money rather than to un present Voluntary Deposit Scheme is much earth Is stock. more attractive. But the people of daikworid don't take interest in social good. They nin Apart from the demerits of the black after money. Money Wuston has made them money in the fieU of economk: manage averse to humani^. So, we sympathtous ment. it also creates ethk»i problems. Any with the Finance Minister in his endeavorfor support oroffOTtoUack money goes against flushing out t>lack money. But the signals accepted standards of social morality. A given by him are not acraptabie to those continuous decay in these standards pro who lead an honest Hfe and to the honest tax duces in its turn grave economic distortion. payers. Black money is a problem of law, economics and ethics. SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH : Mr. Spesdwr, Sir. I am very grateful to an the Thesut>-sectk>n(b)toseclion4of the Bill hon. Members who have taken part in this provktos for exduston of the assets of the debate. Several important suggestkNis have assessu for the purposes of computing his been made and I think one point emerging from this debate is that the black nwney is net weaMi under the Wealth Tax Act. This a many-headed monster. advantage ghres a signal to the society that the black money phenomenon is being con- It is a slock problem and it is also a fkmr aldafad sympathelicaiy. What wouM be ite problem. The stock problem is due to the iniplcatkNis? amount of black wealth that exists in our sodety. But it to an annual probtem. Tlw Provfausly the black money operators hon. Members have menttoned, for exam were shown sympathy and given amnesty. ple, StwiSudhir girl also mentkms the rote of. Bui they dM not fMOunMy respond. So. nxaDon iinjciuf«» our iMUHiy 10 cuiiuui ) is no synfMlhynow and no giving in. nn8DOfi« w w K UU 1011UIH8 wiQ 1119 ruiv 01 343 Voluntary Doposk SEPTEMBER 14,1991 Bill 344 (Immunities & Exempttons) {Sh. Manmohan Singh] comes to implement the scheme. control These are ail important factors why Several Members have expressed doubt over a period of time, the stodc of t>lack that may-be this scheme will not succeed. money continues to grow. Well, I am not a prophet not do I believe in astrology. I think, let us give it a trial. I am conscious of the fact that i have promised thatthis Bill is not an uitimatecure. I admit that it is a palliative and that more With these words, I commend this Bill to basic solutions ars needed to root out this the House. evU at its source and that would require a multi-pronged approach. MR. SPEAKER: I will put all the amend ments together to the vote of the House. I As far as tax structure is concerned, we am putting amendments No2,3 and 4 to the are going it simplify it. We are going to vote of the House. rationalise it. As far as economic controls are concerned, the process of discretionary Amendment Nos 2 to 4 were put and management of the economy through con negatived trol, dismantling of this control has also (Interrufaions) begun. In the area of trade policies, In the area of industrial policy, importantinitiatives MR. SPEAKER: The quistton is: have been taicen. But I do agree that a lot more could be done and should be done. As * That the Bill to provkJe for certain far as penal action is concerned, I can assure this House that we will take aH pos- immunities to persons making volun tary deposits with the Nattonal Houling sbie measures to deal sternly with tax men Bank and for certain exemptions from ace, tax evasion. That applies not only to tax direct taxes in reiatton to such depos evasion but to other anti-social activities like its and for matters connected there smuggling as well. with or incktental there to, be taken into consMeration." Hon. Shri Bhogendra Jha has brought out the question of demonetisation. The The motion was adopted. Govemment has no intention to talw this suggestion seriously. I have some experi CLAUSES ence of implementing a demonetisation scheme in the 1970s when 1^. 1,000 notes wore denwnetised. Nothing came out after MR. SPEAKER: The HousewlHnowtake this. These things wealcened the people's up aause-by-dause consideratton di the confidence In ourcurrency. They do not deal Bill. wHh the problem at Its souice. Therefore, I Thequestkm is: think.thissuggestionistotaltyunacceptable to our Government, howsoever well Thatdauses2to5standpartoflheBU.’ intentioned It might be. The motion was adopted These are some of the points that were made. Shil Giidhari Lai Bhaigava has made Clauses 2 to 5 wen added 10 the BU. some important poim and saidthat we should MR. SPEAKER: The questhwi is: ensure that the Mack money nwbilisad in a particular area is w ed for programmes for Ttia t Clause 1. the Enacting For slum clearance in that particular area. Ishal mula, the Preamble and the Long Tide oertaiiHyDeartnai suggestion wnenineume stand part of the BW.” 345 Uattots Under BHADRA23.1913(SAKA) Rule 377 346 The moSon was adopts the Government of India. These students were forced to return* to this country in view OausB 1, the Enacting Forwula, the ofthepoBlicalsituationthere. Thequestion PimrnnbbantltheluvtUeweiBaMedto of according tBcognWon to the Medical De Iheaa. gree of ttw atxwe students is pending nvltti Government for the last many years. Sev SHRIMANMOHAN SINQH: Sir. i beg to eral representations were given to the Min istry of Health and Famfly Welfare and the Indian Modfcal Association. It was finaly "That me BK be passed.’ decided thatateam may visM Nigeria to have an on-the-spot stu(fy. Tlie students are very [Translation] much dtetuibed andany further delay wouU cause undue haidshtp to them I woukt. SHRIBHOQENORAJHA(Madhu4»nO; therefore, urge upon the govemmentto look Sir. I made a request for the denmnilisation into the problem without any further delay of 500 rupee notes and I was also assured and accord recognition to the above de that stem actkm would be taken after De- grees urgently. oefriber, 31. Please reply ttiese two points. (li) NeedtodedareVllaspui(llBdhya lEngSsh] Pradesh) University a Central MR. SPEAKER: Shrt Bhogendra Jha. you made a long speech. Please s i down. fTianslaUon] MR. SPEAKER: The question is: SWttKHELANRAM JANGDE (Vlaspur) -Thai them be passed.- : Mr.Speaker. Sir. Vilaspur In Madhya The moUon uias adopted, rTaciBsn IS a DacKwara oisinci ana is piB- domlnately InhatMed by Harijans and MR. SPEAKER: Now. The House wM Adhasis Guru Chhijklas Universly is the take up Malleis under Rule 377. only unfversly ki the entire dMston. There Is no DTODfir anwiaemsnt f or tachnlc^ oduca- tton and fadlies of msdfcal eductkm are abokKking. QIMShfa. The Central Government may please mate aB educattonal fadWes avataMe k) MATTERS UNDER RULE 377 the saU universky and declare this Unlver- sty a Central University. W Need to i» r nniilse medical (Hi) Need to bring Poona IMraJ- waradedto Kolhahpur RaUway Section un denlsbyNlgsria der central zone. IBtgtshJ lEngtshJ SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivandrum): Mr. SHRIPRrmiVRAJD.CHAVAN:(Karad): Speaker. Sir. several hundreds of bidtan Sir. the Poona KBtij -Kotwpurbread gauge •tudanlB who have taken Medtaal degrees ralway hie as currently under the South- M padaly M.B.B.S. from Mgeria are fadng Central Zone. T>w Zonal Headquarters are problems in this country since those da- alSecunderBbad.ThaDMstonalHeadquar- grata hav* not so far bean reoognlsod by 347 Matters Under SEPTEMBER 14,1991 Rule 377 348 [Sh. Prithviraj D.Chavan] national level. By the end of the Eighth Five Year Plan the growth rate has been contem ters are at Hubli, which is on the Metre- plated to be 6%. The growth rate 4n the Gauge. There has been a long-standing national income at the national level is likely demand from all the elected represantives to be Rs.1096. But the per captta income of from the area, passengers, industry and the Uttar Pradesh at the sanw rate will be less Railway employees to bring this section by Rs.288. Except for Bihar, the per capita under the Central Zone. As Secunderabad income of Uttar Pradesh has come to the is very far and not well-connected by rail, it bottom of the list of 25 States. causes great inconvenience in case of daim settlements, passengers amenities and The constant fall In per capita income of pensions. Both the tenninal stations of Poona LKtar Pradesh has been attributed to alloca and Mirsy are already under Central Zone, tion of inadequate funds to the State. but the Railway track between them is not. This is the Westem-most Hne, while stations Therefore, I wouM like to make a de as far East as Wadi are under the Central mand from the Central Gk>vemment that It Zone. The change win eqaiise length under shouMgive adequate financial assistance to both Zones. It will increase administrative Uttar Pradesh for Its devetopment and for efficiency and reduce inconvenience to us bringing its per capita income at par with per ers. The Govemment must review the situ capita income of the national level. ation and call a meeting of the officiais and elected representatives to solve the prob (V) Need for a separate State of lem. Bodoland [English] (hr) NeedtoprovldeadequateFlnan- elal assistance to the Qovem- SHRI SATYENDRA NATH BROHMO msnt of Uttar Pradesh to snabla CHAUDHURY (Kokrajhar): Sir, I, on behalf it raise per capita income up to of All Bodo Student's Union and Bodo Peo that of national level ple’s Action Committee, reiterate the de mand for a separate State of Bodoland. This [Tianslatton] demand is purely constituttonaland we prom ise to {^bkto by the Constitution of India and SHRI BHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT want to live as dignified Indian cttizens. (Agra): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the per capita Income of Uttar Pradesh is constantly going I want to appeal to the House to give down as compared to per capita income at serious thought to this matter and provkle the nattonal level. In 1950-51 the per capital detTX)cratk: rights to the Bodos and other income of the State was Rs. 270.50. While tribals of the N.E. region in Assam. The the per capita income at the nattonal level creatton of a separate State of Bodoland was Rs. 295.80 Uttar Pradesh ranlwd 8th in shouM twemphaslsedwlth a viewto restore the country. It was Rs. 25.30 less than the permanent peace and normalcy In the re per captta income of the natkmal level. gion and to fight the meance of ever-in creasing secessionist kieas. By the end of 1990the per capita Income of Uttar Pradesh had reached Rs. 668, (Interruptions) whereas the capita income of the national level was Rs. 895. As such, the per capita SH R I. P.M.SAYEED (Lakshadweep): hcomeof Uttar Pradesh was less t^Rs.227 We have created a record by working on a as compared to per capita income at ttie holUay up to such a late hour. 349 Matters Under BHADRA23,1913(S>VC4) Rule 377 350 journed to meet tomonow on Monday the 16th Septentwr, 1991 at 11.00 A.M. PROF.K.V.THOMAS (ErnaKkulam): Today in Paritament should be held today also. 00.53 hr*. (Int0m^k>ns) 77ie Lok Sab/ia then adSoumedVK Sevan of the Clock on Monday, September 16, MR. SPEAKER; The House stands ad 1991/BhtKira 25,1913(SeO(a) Printed at; S. Narayan & Sons, Delhi-110006