ORIGINAL : HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
-l COMMONWEALTHOF PENNSYLVANIA APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE HEARING
IN RE: BUDGET HEARING ON DRUG AND ALCOHOL FUNDING AND HUMAN SERVICES FUNDING
PHILADELPHIA COLLEGE OF OSTEOPATHICMEDICINE 41.80 CITY AVENUE EVANS HALL AMPHITHEATER PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA
TUESDAY, APRIL 22, 2003, L:35 P.M.
BEFORE:
HON. DAVID ARGALL, CHAIRMAN HON. GIBSON ARMSTRONG HON. MATTHEW BAKER HON. CRA]G DALLY !L HON. GENE DiGIROLAMO HON. EUGENE McGILL .",..1,] HON. SAM ROHRER HON. STAN SAYLOR HON. CURT SCHRODER HON. PETER ZVG HON. DWIGHT EVANS HON. DANIEL FRANKEL HON. KATHY MANDERINO HON. ANTHONY MELIO HON. PHYLLIS MUNDY HON. THOMAS TANGRETTI HON. LeANNA WASHINGTON HON. JAKE WHEATLEY
SHERRI A. REITANO, RPR NOTARY PUBLTC
d$k--". t+Httl 2336N. SecondStreet (717)234-5922 ,\.3 l#til l lryiltl Harrisburg,PA 17110 FAX(717) 234-6190 .:. -r }r{lll I -TJo 03 - og b 1 INDEX
2
3 WI TNESS PAGE
4 Michele Denk 6
Deb Beck T7
6 Frederick W. Anton, III 23
7 Mark Sarneso 27
I Michael Har1e 3l_
9 David Slinger 38
10 Gary Tennis 45
1t- Dickie Noles 51
L2 Secretary Estelle Richman 65
IJ
t4
1q
16
I7
1B
19
20
2L
22
23
24
25 1 CHAIRMANARGALL: Good afternoon, everyone.
2 On behalf of the House Appropriations Committee, f
3 would like to welcome everyone here to this second in
A Cl a continuing serj-es of hearings looking at the budget
5 as originally given to us by Governor Rendell. He has
6 said that while the bar is high, there may in deed be
7 room for modifications.
X A11 that you need, of course, is L02 votes
9 in the House, 26 in the Senate, and the Governorrs
10 signature. So we understand how that process works in
11 Harlisburg, and that is why we are here today t2 We will be looking at the potential impact l-3 of reductions already approved as well as looking for
14 other potential reductions in the budget. And I think
1q of special interest is today to look to see how
L6 agencies.both in the public sector and in the private t7 sector can deal with the reductions in the budget
1B al-ready suggested.
19 The goal, of course, in moving Pennsylvania
20 forward"is to control both State spending as well as
2t State taxes. We need to target those tax doIlars
22 especially in difficult year to those areas where
23 they are the most needed z.r Whether it is in revitalizing a community,
25 whether it is in turning people I s lives around getting 't I them back on the right startr w€ will be looking today
2 and in the hearings to come to see how we can stretch
3 those tax dollars that we have been given by the
4 taxpayers of Pennsylvania to the maximum. Thatrs why
5 we are here today.
6
7 impacted by the reductions in both drug and alcohol
B ' funding as well as in human services funding.
9 And our goal today and I would ask all
10 of the members of the Approprj-ations Committee to be
11 concise and to the point so that we can get the
t2 maximum number of questions both asked and answered
13 today according'to our five-minute rule
T4 Our goal is to understand the priorities of
15 the Governorrs budget as it pertains to funding for
16 drug and alcohol and. human services funding, and to
I7 'understand how the impacted organizations and the
1B Department of Public Welfare will operate with the
19 isting reductions
20 We will introduce the first panel in just a
2t moment. We will go until 2:30. We wil-l- then bring on
22 the Secretary of the Department of PubIic WeIfare.
23 And we wilL conclude here by 4:00. Many of the : 24 members of the committee have other appointments. I
25 know I need to be in Lancaster by six, and so we wi]l I need to conclude on schedule.
2 So before we go any further, I'd like to
3 introduce the Minority Chairman of the committee,
4 Representative Dwight Evans. I was asking him if the
q halL here is named in his honor. He can explain that
o or he can do anything else that he now chooses.
I Dwightr w€1come
I REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: I would ].iKe Io
9 thank the Chairman for conducting this hearing, and I
10 want to .thank all of you for showing up today to just
11 voice your opinion and your thoughts.
1,2 The Chairman this is one of I think
13 seven more hearings that he wiLl be conducting with
L4 the rest of.the members throughout the Commonwealth of
I3 Pennsylvania. This is not an issue of a partisan
16 issue. This j-s an issue about us trying: to work
1,7 together to solve this budget issue and move the State
18 forward again. Again, I wouLd like to thank the
19 Chai rman
20 CHAIRMAN ARGALL: Thank you. For those
2t questions that are not that we run out of time for
22 today, I encouraged aLl of the members of the
23 committee at our last hearing in Harrisburg to provide
24 them to me in writi*g; and we will follow-up with the
25 appropriate agencies to get answers. 1 As I had said earlier, time permitting we
z will- hold questions with our first panel until a1l
? have presented. And then for those groups that were
4 able to come to us perhaps in the last few days when
the schedule was already put togetherr w€ will not be
able to fit you in today. But we will take statements
7 in writing, and we will make that part of the
committeers legislative record.
9 And so once againr w€lcome aLL of you to
10 this beautiful location. I would now Like to brinq
11 forward our first testifier.
L2 MicheIe, if you will introduce yourself and
13 we can begin.
L4 MS. DENK: Good afternoon. My name is
15 Michel-e Denk. f rm the executive director of the
16 Pennsylvania Association of County Human Service t1 Administrators, the alphabet soup acronym is PACHSA.
LB Werre an affiliate of the County Commissioners 'staf 19 Association. I am part of the f at CCAP.
20 We would really like to thank you for the
2L opportunity to come this afternoon to provide
22 testimony regarding the budget that has been passed
23 and its impact on the community and loca1 human
24 servr-ce programs.
25 . I'm al-so here to ask that you restore the l_ cuts that were made to human services that have been
2 j-ncluded in the 2OO3-2004 State budget.
Counties in Pennsylvania are the caretakers
4 of our communities. They preserve d.emocracy by
administering the election process. They improve
6 health and welfare by helping families and individuals
7 in need and responding in times of emergencies.
x -They preserve and showcase Pennsylvaniars
9 naturalr cultural, and historical resources through
10 careful and effective planning and economic
L1 development. Counties are the State's partner in the ' L2 del-ivery of human services . l3 Counties must work within the limitations
L4 of complex state and federal regulaLions to develop l_5 programs and initiatives that respond to locally
16 identified needs i-n the most economic and efficient
L7 manner possible..
LB The state and federaL government are the
19 primary sources of funding for q11 services provided
20 throu'gh county human servj-ces.
2L In many instances .l-ocal dol-lars are
22 required to match federal and state do11ars.. Counties
23 use local tax revenue for that purpose.
24 The budget as has been passed will have a
25 devastating effect on locaL human service's in all 67 1 counties.. We will not be able to absorb the budget
2 cuts or fund that critical service that will be
eliminated through this draconian budget.
4 We have assessed the impact of the budget
q on consumers of human services. And it will be
6 devastating to individuals in our communities. 'The 7 need and demand for services will not
U be reduced because the funding has been eliminated.
9 Individuals and famiLies will be forced into more
10 costly methods of treatment such as hospitals, nursing
11 homes, prisons, and institutions if community-based t2 services are not available. Hospital emergency rooms
13 wiLl- be overflowing as the community support services
14 are cut.
15 Last year, counties provided services to
L6 652, 000 people through the Human Services Development
L7 Fund. The flexibility of HSDF has allowed counties to
1B creat e a service delivery system that meets the unique
19 demands that have been localIy defined and to fill
20. gaps in services.
2L Over 500 agencies throughout the state have
22 received human service funding Iast year. HSDF also
23 supplements the county human services systems, Mental
24 Health/MentaI Retardation, Drug and Alcohol, Aging,
25 and Children and Youth Services. L HSDF funding is being used in York County ; z for example to reduce the waiting list for vocational
3 rehabilitation services for persons with mental
4 re tardat ion
5 Statewide HSDF funds have been used to
6 serve 1,598 individuals with mental retardation.
7 Thirty-four counties use HSDF to supplement services
I provided through the Aging system.
9 HSDF funding is being used effectively to
10 maintain individuals in their homes and communities.
Ll_ In AlLegheny County there are estimates that as many
1,2 as 165 residents wiII be placed in institutions once
13 the HSDF is cut. Another l-35 are at ri-sk of
L4 incarceration.
L5 More specifica11y, LL Allegheny County
16 residents are able to live in the community supported l7 by services through contract with the Three Rivers
1B Center for Independent Living. These services cost
LY $16r?04 a year to fund the three cLients. Once the
20 HSDF is cut, these three individuals will be
21, institutionalized at a projected cost of $4B,O0O per
22 year per person.
23 Eight others are at risk of
24 insti tut ional i zat ion . The total cost could be as high
25 as $528,000 per year. 10
I t . HSDF funding saves taxpayers money by
z allowing people to remain in their homes and function
3 to their fullest potential.
4 In Cumberland and Perry County, dialysis
patients will be faced with a choice of entering a
6 nursi-ng home when their transportation services are
7 cut.
B The Human Services Development Fund is less
9 than two-tenths of 1 percent of the DPW budget. V{e
1_0 woul-d suggest reallocating the HSDF cut across other
11 cost centers within Welfare and enabling and
I2 preserving the counties' ability to triage a response
13 to other cuts. By keeping as much of the HSDF as
14 funding intact as possible, counties riltt be able to
respond to the other cuts that will be necessary.
L6 Wer re told that HSDF was eLiminated because
L7 it does not leverage funding, federal funding at the ' 1B state 1eve1.
1v In fact, county programs do use HSDF to
20 leverage other funding. Some of it is federal, some
2t of it is. state money but it is .done at the Local
22 . level
23 1 HSDF also allows county coordinators to
24 develop unique programs that cross our categorical-
25 systems and create solutions to barriers. for citizens l_1
L with multiple needs. HSDF dollars leverage human
capital.
3 One county funds a portion of the local
4 volunteer centers operated by the United Way. At the
f volunteer center one single HSDF do11ar leverages 160
hours of vol-unteer time at a multitude of community
7 agencies.
B The HSDF also leverages access to service
9 for thousands of Pennsylvanians through community
10 centers and family centers as well as information and l_1 ref erral networks.
L2 Training and staff development efforts have l-3 made our system more efficient. York County operates
L4 a comprehensive training program designed to"serve l5 alL human service agencies and providers making the
16 whoLe system more responsive to the community needs.
L7 Caseworkers and direct care staff have an
1B opportun i ty to learn conversational Spanish, an
19 invaLuab 1e tool that increases access for this
20 important t arget population
2t Counties. such as Chester and Franklin have
22 been able to increase efficiencies in overall nlanni-ng
23 and administration by utilizing the HSDF to form a
24 consolidated human service department that oversees
25 the funding and operation of all of the categorj-caI L human services within the county.
2 In all, 47 counties utilize HSDF to improve
J service coordination to their resi-dents. The
.t efficj-ent use of state dollars through the Human
Service Development Fund is critical to the ongoing
6 operation of services at the county level- and the
7 continuation of the effective partnership that exists
I between the counties and the state.
9 The partnership between the counties and
l_0 the state has also been devastated by the cuts to the
Lt drug and al-cohol system. The budget wilL require a
L2 $64 million cut to our treatment capacity across the
IJ state. - tt l-4 It has taken decades to build this capacity
15 through.a patchwork of funding f5om various local I
L6 federal, and state sources. Counties do not have the
L7, capacity to replace the funds that wiLl be lost.
1B We are not the primary funders for
t9 addictions treatment. Untreated addiction will have a
20 profound economic impact throughout the state. In
2L 1999 the National Institute on Drug and Alcoho1 abuse,
22 NIDA, published a study t Princ:p-l.es of Drug Addictjon
23 Treatment: A Research-Based Gurde. At that time NfDA
24, estimates the treatment savings, including health care
25 savingsr €Xceeded the costs of actually providing the 1 treatment by a 12 to 1 ratio
2 go on to state that every : Ih"y dollar
? invested in treatment yield.s a return of between $4
4 and $Z in reduced costs of drug-related crime,
criminal justice costs, and theft.
6 The 40 percent reduction in funding for '1 intermediate punishment programs from the pennsylvania
U .. Commission on Crj-me and Delinquency would increase the
J cosL of addiction to society.
10 These funds allow nonviol-ent offenders to
11 participate in an addictions treatment program as an
L2 alternative to incarceration. When these services are
1? cut, county prisons wilI be forced to accommodate
14 increase.d population; and offend.ers will not have
15 adequate access to rehabil-itation.
16 The loss of the treatment capacity will
17 also have a dramatic impact on families served through
r IX our Children and Youth programs. At leas t 67 percent
19 of the children 1n the Children and youth system come
20 from families where substance abuse is a major issue.
2t
22 times more likeIy to be abused, 4 times.more'likely to
ZJ be neglected; as a result, more l-ikely to enter care,
24 to remain in care for a longer time, and reenter care
25 after they have been discharged. L4
L . Cuts to the mental health - funding will also
2 have an impact on the Children and Youth population.
J At least 80 percent of the children placed outside of
r+ their homes have developmental, behavioralr or
emotional problems with a primary need for mental
6 health services.
7 The Children and Youth service system will
I . pay the price for the cuts in the other categorical
9 human services. County Children and Youth agencies as
10 a mandated entitlement service will become
1l- overburdened by clients unable to be served in the
t2 most appropriate manner and by the costs of providing
13 these services.
I L4 The budget cuts will have an immediate
L5 ef fect on the children already being served and the
16 providers in the communities by impairing their
L7 ability to ensure that the most effectj-ve services are
1B avai-labIe.
L9 Treatment may be delayed resulting in more
20 children at risk of being abused and neglected, ' 2T j-ncreased delinquent behavior and placement, increased
22 domestic v1olence. More children will be placed in
23 costly residential care making reunification efforts
24 difficult and less 1ike1y to succeed.
25 Close to $26 million have been sLashed from 1_5
1 the behavioral heal-th services initiative. That will
2 Iimit our ability to serve individuals who do not
qualify for medical assj-stance and have insufficient
? funds to pay for services.
Many of these consumers will become
6 homeless because they do not receive the support or
7 treatment including medication. Many wiLl be
I convicted of petty crimes and enter county prisons.
9 Others will be committed to state mental hospitals.
L0 Restoring the costs of substance abuse and l_l mental health treatment is a worthy investment.
L2 Eliminating the funding will not make the problems go
1J away.
L4 If this budget remains unchanged, vital
15 services wiLl not be available af ter ,fune 30th. We l_6 are stilI in the process of assessing the true
L7 economic impact that these cuts may have on a
18 county-by-county basis .
IY AIlegheny County human servi-ce providers,
20 for example, have projected that 89 individuals wilI
2L lose their job as a result of the 90 percent reductio4
22 in.the Human Service Development Fund aLone.
23 Other counties will face proportionate
24 reductions. As jobs are eliminated, Iocal- providers
25 will close and the local community economy will- be l_6
impacted.
2 Human service workers pay taxes, purchase
3 goods and servj-cesrvj-ces in ou.our communitier s, and rent and
purchase housing.
5 I wouLd ask you to examine the negative
6 mul-tiplying effect that a $103 millj-on cut to the
7 human servj-ces system will have on the local
B
9 The impact is far greater than the actual
10 dollars cut from DPW's budget. The progress that we
11 have made with work force development and recruitment
L2 and retention efforts during the past few years will
L3 be lost as agencies close or significantly reduce
L4 their staff. rb What is the net result of eliminating jobs
L6 in one service area and subsequently spending tax
I7 dollars to reduce Pennsylvania's Brain Drain and out
L8 mi gra t ion? l_9 The budget that has been passed. does not
20 a1low county human service programs to adequately meet
2L the needs of citizens and families within our
22 community.
23 Counties will be left to address the
24 combined. impact of these devastating cuts. Werre
25 hopeful of an opportunity of reinstating these monies I7
1 before agencies are closed.
2 Thank you again for your consideration. We
3 have written mat.erial. We have material available on
4 the web site. I ' d be happy to answer any questions
5 that you have
6 CHAIRMAN ARGALL:;ALL: WeWC don'tdOT have the time
.7 fo1 Auestions with the rest of the panel. Tharrk you,
B Mi che 1e .
9 MS. DENK: Thank vou: ' l-0 CHAIRMANARGALL: Deb Beckr. Pfease.
11 MS. BECK: Fred, do you want to come down
L2 as well-? Hers making me go on my own. All right, l3 Fred . r.i CHAIRMANARGALL: PIease identify yourself
15 and begin your testimony
16 . MS. BECK: Irm Deb Beck. Is the microphone
L7 on? . Did that work? I just got to ask, anybody here
1B think treatment works? l9 ' I wanted to make sure I was in the right
20 pIace. It sounds like I am. My name is Deb Beck.' I
2T am the president of the Drug and Alcohol Service
22 ' Providers. I am not going to read along. You have
23 the packet from us.
24 My notes don't match what you have. You
25 will be able to go back and look at some of the 18
1 research in there at your l-eisure
2 Irm a clinician turned advocate. I ran a
? skid row program in Harrisburg for many years and
4 became a public policy advocate. And the last time I
q was at the bottom of an amphitheater I was teaching
6 Addiction Physiology to Hershey Medical SchooI
7 students. I hope you won't be quite as dissecting as
B they were.
Y A few days dgor Ash1ey's mother returned my l-0 call from AshIey's grave. You see, it was Ashley's
LL birthday. It would have been her 18th birthday.
L2 However, Ashley was only able to get a few l-3 days of the addiction treatment. And because of the l4 overwhelmed seriousness of this illness, I wanted to
15 start my remarks there
16 In case there is anybody i.n the viewing or
17 listening audience that does not already know
LB al-cohof j-sm and other drug dependencies are l_9 progressive, always fatal illnesses if they are
20 allowed to go unchecked. Irm going to say it again.
2L These are'fatal illnesses if they are
22 al l-owed to go unchecked. For thi s reason, this
ZJ hearing, and what you do today and the weeks that
24 follow around this budget is l-ife and death important.
25 It is life and death importanL to one in four famiLies L9
1 I in the State of Pennsylvanj-a, our great state..
2 And one in four f amilies within our vj-ewing
d.istance and maybe here today in fact, I know.here
4 today " -- is struggling with an untreated alcohol-ic or
5 drug .addicted loved one in the family. And oh, how
6 the family suffers. Oh, how they suffer. Ashley's
7 mother returned my call from her grave site.
R Of cours€r one in four of you already know
9 about this' struggrle upf ront and personaL because it j-s
10 go ing on in your home. You know about it. frm not
1l_ go ing to talk any more about it.
T2 One in four families are affected. One in
13 ten citizens will develop an unt reated addiction. And
L4 f want to assure you we don't get people who get drunk
once in a whil-e in our treatment facilities. That l_6 isn't who shows up in drug and alcohol addiction
T7 treatment. Sometimes the publ ic doesn't know that.
IU And I know you have good press coverage for this
19 today
20 But even if you do not have a l-oved one in
2t your immediate family, the truth you are affected.
22 No one gets out of this life unscathed by an untreated
23 drug or alcohoL addicted person. Every addicted z.t person affects a minimum of 6 to B others in their
25 immediate environment, in their community, in their 20
I 1 neighborhood. It is drastic. It is dramatic. It is
z financial. It is emotional. r may run over you with
{ my car. NIDA and AAA have tried to put a number on
I the easy-to-measure costs of untreated addiction and
q the number they put on it and the data again is in
6 the packet for you is $246 billion a year is what
7 it costs us not to treat this problem.
X It is an annually renewing $246 billion a
9 year. That is the easy stuff to measure. And I donit
1_0 know how, dear God, we put a prj-ce tag on the heart l_1 break of a parent who has lost a child.
I2 We spend less than 5 Percent of this amount
13 on prevent.i-on and treatment nationally and our state,
T4 kind of matches that.
15 . So we pay over and over again. But on the
16 other hand, the cost benefits of the treatment are l7 overwhelming and again are in your packet. Irm not
Td going to bore you with the details of that. l-9 There is no serious disagreement in the
20 research in the research that costs to. treat
2L untreated addiction. It turns out that you don't even
22 have to like the untreated alcoholic or an addict in
23 your family to see the value of doing treatment and
24 that you can save money and you .can keep other
25 famiLies from having to suffer as some of you have in 2I
l_ this room
z
3 health care'costs, crime as yourll see in the
4 packet and in the workplace. Treating it saves
5 money in all three domains. For every dollar spent,
6 we save $7 to $12 on other things
7 .During the war in Vietnam. over a 1-S-year
X perJ-od, 50, OOO young Americans lost their lives. And
Y the natj-on rose up and' said the price is too high. l_0 Let's bring the children home. Let's bring the young
11 people home. Bring them home. What price our
1,2 ch i ldren ? l_3 But every year in America, 130, O0O
1,4 . Americans die every year from untreated addiction. 15 130'ooo' "":'::-';":l:: 16 -,t"::::.'";:'"*n" will t7 rise up and say the cost is too high? What price our . L8 children? Let's bring them home. The Pennsylvania
LY budget before us contains over $104 million in cuts.
20 And that material is al-so in your packet.
2T This is over half of the state money
22 . available f or l-ocal spending, Ii f e-saving spending.
23 40rO0O Pennsylvanians will be unable to go to
24 treatment in the next year. And who are these 40r000
25 people? Well- r w€ know who t.hey are. 22
a I They are our mothers, our fathers, our
2 si-sters, and our brothers. They. are not somebody
3 other. They are our childrenr our neighbors,
4 co-workers in the work force. We are the people it
turns out, folks. We are also the taxpayers.
6 FinalIy, folks, I have been reduced to
7 comi-ng here today. Irve become a treatment broker. I
.X beg for free service every day. I bump waiting lists
9 and still the caIls come with a heart numbing
10 regularity to my office and to my home. The families
1l_ call with pain, acidic pain that is strong enough to l L2 bleed.and melt the heart of stone.
13 And I will tell- you there are happy,moments
L4 as wel-l. I have a letter with me todav f rom a woman
1q who is wrj-ting to teII me her young daughter j-s doing
L6 well- and thanking me for getting her service. She
L7 thought her daughter would. d.ie. l_B I f eel- terrible about this l-etter. Let me t-9 teII you why. I bumped a waiting list which means
20 somebody else's motherrs child did. not get help so
2t this one could live
22 In closirg, Ifm here today to lay my burden
23 which is our burden at your feet uttg to plead with
24 your to beg you for restoration of $104 million in the
25 treatment budget. What price -- what price our 23
1 chi ldren ? Thank you for your time.
2 CHAIRMANARGALL: Mr. Anton, if.you would'
J like to identify yourself, please
4 MR. ANTON: My name is Fred Anton. I am
the Chairman of the Pennsylvania Manufacture rs
6 Association.
7 'I would like to thank you, Chairman Argal1
B and Vice Chairman Evans particularly and other members
9 of the committee for this historic what I t0 understand is a historic event appearing for a budget ll_ hearing in PhiIadelphia. t2 For the last 13 years I have had a great
13 interest in doing what I can to help those who are
I4 trying to recover from al-cohol and drug addiction:
15 In accord with that interest, I have.become l_o a member of the Board of National A]liance for Model t7 Drug Laws out of Washington, DC.
1B This organization developed out of the
19 President's commission stud.ying this subject. The
20 President's commission on Model State Drug Laws now
21, the National- Alliance urges that states adopt the ful1
22 continuum of the addiction treatment services as a
23 part of state alcohol and drug strategy. I joined
24 this board because I'm committed to its goals and
25 fully endorse its findings regarding addiction 24
1 treatment.
2 In this regard. I am here today to urge you
3 to restore $104 miLlion in funds that were cut from
4 addiction treatment services during passage of the
5 state budget.
6 To be I approach this problem as a
I businessman. AIcohoI and other drugs are widely
B avail-able in our neighborhoods, in our schools, and in
9 our workplaces.
10 Yet children must have communities
1l characterized by caring and safety to thrive and grow'
in confidence and to learn the skills we need for the
13 22nd century.
14 To be compet i t ive and prod.uct ive , our work l_5 sites must be free of distraction and danger caused by
16 alcohol and d.rugs
L7 f know the Governor is concerned about
18 economic development but so am I. And I wonder how
19 can we succeed at economic development without making
20 a serious investment in a sober and stable workplace.
27 Let me just make a few comments on the
22 issue. The impact of untreated alcohoL and drug
23 problems on our nationrs work force have been well
24 researched and is quite redundant. Some of this
25 research is in your packet, and it will be presented 25
1 by other experts in this area far more expert than I. I 2 Prior to addiction treatment, the research finds heaLth care utiLization, high rates of
4 accidents, absenteeism, and disciplinary actions
5 incurred by the addicted employee.
6 After treatment there are dramatic
'7 reductions in the use of health care and the accident
o rates, absenteeism, and disciplinary'action. In the
9 work force today there are many people with alcohol
L0 and drug problems already there struggling to hold
11 down their jobs
L2 Other employees have children and loved
IJ ones with the illness. However, not all workers have
L4 insurance or'are able to access insurance coveragfe for
15 addict ion treatment.
16 The dollars cut from the treatment budget . t-7 are Iife-saving dollars for these workers without
1B insurance. Outside the work force there are many who
19 have already lost jobs as a result of alcohol or drug
20 probl ems .
2T Without treatment, this group of men and
22 women will remaj-n trapped in a downward spi-raI with no
23 ability to get or retain a job because of productive
24 caxpayers, citizens of our state
25 In this bleak picture of struggling job 26
Ioss, addiction treatment is a very bright light
2 indeed. And the dollars under discussion are a wise
3 investment in our state.
4 fn closing not quite in closirg, but in
5 finishing this statement before I make a persona*
6 remark, it appears we are headed in the direction of'a
7 tax increase.
B If werre going to do this, why shouldnr t we
9 ensure the restoration of these jobs and life-saving t-0 problems and get our work force moving. l- l_ f feel every bit as emotional as Deb Beck
L2 about the importance of drug and alcohol treatment for
IJ those struggling. I know many people personally who l4 have been in rehab and who have benefited from l_5 extensive treatment and rehab programs. l-6 I do not believe that drug: and alcohol
1.7 treatment only works for 20 percent of the
1B population -: of the people who go.
19 I know many people who have been in rehabs,
20 good people who have been in rehabs 2, 3, 4 times and
2I now are sober for 5, 10, 15 years. Many, many people.
22 Treatment does work
23 My own personal view is before one new
24 dollar is spent for education in the Commonwealth of
25 Pennsylvania or for economic development, that the 27
t_ $104 million for this program should be restored.
2 Thank you very much
3 CHAIRMANARGALL: Mr. Sarneso.
4 MR. SARNESO: Us treatment provj-ders stick
q together. My name is Mark Sarneso, and I am executive
6 director of White Deer Run. White Deer Run is one of
7 the. Iargest drug and alcohol treatment systems in the
x St ate ' 9 Irm also proud to be chairman of DASPOP.
l_0 And in that I have the delicious pleasure to be Deb
l-1 Beckrs boss. So if any of you ever feel the need to
L2 teII Deb to do something, call me and I ' 11 make sure
l_3 she does that or she'11 pretend that I asked her and
L4 told her to do something.
L0 White Deer Run operates 26 Licensed drug
16 and alcohol treatment centers in 18 counties across
L7 the State. And between Mike and I, we probably cover
18 most of the state.
1_9 The counties that White Deer Run have
20 operations in -- and I ' l-1 just list them if you don't
27 mind me reading off. I usually forget one or two of
22 them. ALlegheny, Lawrence, Erj-e, Westmoreland,
ZJ Cambria, Indiana, B1air, Dauphin, Union, Lycomi.g,
24 Lancaster, Berks, Lebanon, Lehigh, Northampton, I 25 SchuylkiII, FrankIin, Clinton, Columbia. 28
1 As I mentioned, it is a large system. We
z have 700 employees located across those 26 sites in
those 1B counties.
4 It's ironic that Irm coming to ask you-, to
5 plead you, beg you to find a way to restore $f04 'd.rug 6 million of and alcohol funding'. ft was just last
7 year that we were in Ben Salem and we were talking
I about an additional $10 million of funding for drug
9 and alcohol treatment because the State didnrt have
10 enough funding to meet the need.
11 . Instead of asking for a $10 million
L2 increase, we are now trying desperately to stop the
l-3 $104 million cut. My fear is that Pennsylvania is
1A J- .t waving the white flag on the war on drugs. Some
15 people think this is a .Iuly 1st problem. This is a
16 middle of March problem.
t7 The census throughout the system and census
l_B 'is certainly one indication of the ability for the
L9 addiction. Census
20 is plummeting across the street in all of the
2L programs. Every program that Irm aware of, their top
22 manag:ers are meeting to talk about what programs are
23 we going to cut, what programs are we going to
z+ eliminate, what staff are we going to reduce, what I 25 communities are you not going to have an option to 29
1 treat those in need?
2 , Those decisions are being made now. I will
make the f inal decis j-ons about my system by the end of
4 this week. I will cut at l-east 10 or 15 percent out
5 of my entire operation for this month
6 My fear is that next month I ' I1 probably
7 have to cut another 10 or 15 percent and then the
F following month another 10 or 15 percent.
9 These are people that are -- these are tax
10 paying citizens that will no longer have jobs. These
1L' are resources in the communities that will no longer
IZ be there.
13 Long-standing community assets, rehabs that
ICI have been part and parcel of the life blood of your
15 communities are now talking about folding their tents l-6 and going away.
L7 And I. know some people sometimes cynically l_B sdy, weII, when the money is restored they will pop
19 back up. No, they wonrt. Mr. Anton talks aboutr you
20 know, represents manuf acturing associ.ations. What
27 happens to" a plant when you stop making stuff in a
22 plant? It rusts. It breaks down. It goes away.
23 We are going to be losing valuable
24 resources. People that know how to treat people who
25 have addictions. Wefre losing them now. Irm losing 1 them this week from my program. I t 1I lose more of
2 them next month from my program.
By July 1, my program which is in your
4 communities is not going to look anywhere near what it 'like 5 looked a month ago. So the urgency real-Iy is
6 now. This is a problem now.
7 We are in desperate means in terms of a
I $104 million cut. But that cut and the spector.of
9 that cut and the psychofogy of that cut and the'
L0 reality of that cut is affecting your communities now. t_l- God bless you if you have a loved one or
L2 one of your constiLuents have a loved one that needs
IJ help now because my fear is they are not going to get
L4 J-E, nOW . ' L5 As I mentionedr w€ employ over ?OO people
16 in our system. The average salary in our system i-s
L7 $25rOOO. It is not much but it is $25rOOO a year.'
1B Every one of those ?00 employees' positj-ons 'white 19 is at risk. Deer Run spends tens of mirrions of
20 dorlars a year purchasing services from contractors
2t and vendors and retail- stores and food merchants.
22 They are going to go away ltt ZJ In some of our communities such as in
24 Allenwood, Pennsylvania and Williamsport, pennsylvania
25 if we are not the largest employer in those 31
1 communitiesr w€ are certainly one of the largest
z employers in those communities. And those communities
are .going suf f er hardship as we beqin to close our .to 4 doors which we wil-l do. There is no way that the. drug
q, and alcohol treatment system is going to be able to
6 handle the .impact of $104 rnil-lion in cuts.
7 message I realIy wanted to give is
B again that this is not a.Iu1y l problem. This is
9 happening now. Your infrastructure, the drug and
10 al-cohoI treatment system that Pennsylvanj-a has built
11 up over, years and has been'recognized nationally as
t2 being a bellwether state for not just humanity in
13 terms'of fighting this horrendous disease but aLso
t4 underdtanding the unintended. co.nsequences when you
15 cut -- when you cut an activity that for: every dollar
IO you spend on an activity, somewhere else in the system
L7, you save $7 to $12.
L8 To have that kind of foresight and have
lv that kind of humanity to treat your feIlow citizens,
20 Pennsylvania now, again I reiterate, we are waving the
21" white flag on our war on drugs. And I plead al-l- of
22 you on this committee to do what you can to stop that.
23 Thank you.
24 CHAIRMANARGALL: PIease identify yourseLf. .. 25 MR. HARLE: Good afternoon. Thank your Mr. - 32
I Chairman, for the hearings. You are also my State
2 Representative from the County of Schuylkill where
3 Fountain Springs, our women and childrenr s program,
is.
So I thank you. I also want to thank
6 R'epresentative DiGirolamo for these hearings. And I
7 al-so want to mention that I was in the hearing on
I September 9th Irm sorryr on April 19th of last year
and one of the things that happened is that because
10 many of .the we have a heroin epidemic. If anybody
11 has been reading the papers, we 'have a heroin epidemic
t2 while this is going on.
l-3 There is about l-30 people that were on a
I L4 quilt of women who have mothers who lost their
children at that hearing.. And f was pretty hopeful
L6 that we were going to start to have the idea of
t1 denial would start to break through
IU It teaches me a lesson and that lesson is
19 one day at a time. Donrt get too far ahead of
20 yourself. Dontt get too far behind yourself. But Irm
2T not complaining and I fm not whining
22 understand this state has a tremendous
z5 budget deficit. I have one too. Mine is not as great
ztt as yours. But if the same decisions that need to be
25 made about who gets in the door and. who doesD't, Irm 33
L making those decisions today
2 And I have some informati-on here to kind of
share with you on what that impact will be to me and
4 to the rest of the to the people that I work with.
5 My testimony is kind of brief. Irm the
6 past president of the Philadelphia Alliance of Drug
7 and AIcohol Mental HeaIth and Mental Retardation
I programs. I am the past president of DASPOP, past
9 president of Pennsylvania A11iance. I've been doing l0 this for about 30 vears. I've never seen it this bad. rL frve never seen it this bad. These cuts
L2 are horrendous. They are not going to be able to just
13 be eliminated or kind of just werre going to be able t4 to work our way around them or work around them. It
15 is not going to happen.
16 I. have facilities in Chester, Delaware,
L7 Montgom€ry, PhiladeIphia, Cumberland, Dauphin,
18 Lancaster, Northumberland, Schuy1kill and Erie
IJ Counties. I also contract probably along with Mark
20 every county almost in the State. There is all but
2L maybe ten counties in the State that I dontt and this
22 guy does.
23 Most importantly, I I 11. go right to the z.) point. Youfve heard about the facts. I'm going to z5 give you what it means to my agency 34
1 We have 835 emploYees. Of th'at 835 I 2 proDaory around 4OO will lose their jobs. The total 3 salaries are about $ f O mil-l-ion. The loss of taxes is
4 about $Z miIIlon.
It wil-I cost the Commonwealth for me to let
these folks go about $2.5 million in lost just
7 Pennsylvania state income tax and unemployment
-U compensation. That's $3OO,0OO immediately in reduced
9 State taxes. -- L0 Almost all of my families almost all of
l-1 my employees have families. They are in all of these
1,2 communities throughout the State. Their ed.ucation
13 ranges from GEDs to PhDs. Most of these people though
74 have committed their lives to this. You have to
15 understand this is not like they are going to go work
L6 somewhere eIse. They have commj-tted their lives.
L7 They don't make a lot of money. ' 1_B Most of my employees wouJd make more money
19 somewhere else. And most of them will have to be
20 retrained and probably will- leave our field all-
2T together and maybe get into maybe auto sales or
22 insurance saIes.
23 We can sell ourselves products. I donrt
24 know who is going to purchase them though. Another
25 important thing is that I took that statistic and 35
"and L Looked at if I took that $100 miLLion went
2 statewide with it and Looked at all of the other
J problems that Irm Ifm actually talking to two
4 programs right now that would like me to bail them out
f because they were going under prior to this cut.
6 One is in Philadelphia with L3O employees
7 and the other one is'in Erie County. They were .asking 8 for help prior to this. We were underfund.ed. You
9 have got to remember we were underfunded before this.
10 Wee I re not complainingcoml But we were
11 underfunded'before this. We couldn't serve what we
1,2 had. You'11 see buttons around here that say 630rO0O
1? people. That's the people who werenrt getting
14 treatment already.
1_5 " So you ought to know this is serious. This
16 j-s very serious. That will mean about 4, 000 lost
L7 jobs, about $28 rniLlion in taxes. And if we look at
18 these savings, the lost power of J-ncome, that means if t_9 they go on unemployment, they get half of their
20 salaries. ' That I s about $4 0 mil1ion. That total is
2L $ 68 million. That is almost a hundred mill-ron dotlars
22 we cut. Now just think if they all -- if 50 percent
23 of those people all got jobs the next day immediately,
24 that would only be haLf of that or $34 milIion.
25 So this is going to have an economic impact 36
l- on usr just the employees and just the infrastructure
2 More importantly though to me because I rm not in the
3 field for jobs, to keep people in jobs. I wish we
4 didnrt have a drug problem so that nobody could work
q in our field. That would be my goal
6 My board of d.irectors wouLd like me to go
7 out.of business. That's my job, to put us out of
B business. But Ifm not the person who brings these
9 addicts to the program. Don't blame me for it. Irm
L0 not the one creating them. l1 Okay. It isn't something I have in the
L2 back room that Irm churning out new addicts. Some of
13 the social problems that by the wdy, addiction
L4 breeds addiction. Recovery breeds recovery.
15 If we stop that process
16 this room have seen it happen. Whole families have t7 gotten better. WhoIe communj-ties are starting to get
18 better. You don't want to give somebody a job and an
19 apartment who is still using crack. But you
20 definitely want to give them a hammer and get them to
2L build their own house.
22 You want to give them an opportunity in a
23 job. And those people will take advantage of them. zq Many in the room right now who have come from that.
25 You have done that. Thank you. I'm 37
t I actualLy not emotional about this Irm feeling l-ike
2 letting it go.
? One of the things that really bothers me is
4 that thg $104 rnillion cut if we take t'hat ?'to !, the
National Institute of HeaIth, the National Institute
6 of Drug Abuse, they all say
7 and by the wdy, nobody likes drug and alcohol
B treatment.. Thatrs not something that we all, you
9 know, want to go to, want to hang out with.
10 When I bring it up at parties, they want to
1t get away,:f rom me. You know what I mean? So I
L2 understand this is not something that we like to talk
13 about. But I need to talk about it. l_4 That means that if we save
1J numbers Irm giving you are conservative. Nobody lets
16 us get away'with throwing numbers out .there like some
1,7 people do.
18 make sure that our numbers are
19 real. $7 for every dollar we spend. That means if
20 there is a $104 nill ion cut, we have got about .a $721
2t million in i.ncreased spending in some other areas.
22 And. I can tell you where it is. It is
23 going to be prisons. It is going to be in Chil-dren
24 and Youth agencies. It is going to be those
25 families -- I have a hundred families in treatment 1 ' now. They each have about 2.3 kids. It is their
2 kids. It is juvenile institutions
And I was thinking, where do these people
4 ' go to work at? Do they go to work in jaits as prison
q guards? Do theY qo becomeecome goqo to work in juvenile
6 detention cenLers?
7 I'm thinking about where they go to work
I at . They'd have to be retrained. we coul-d retrain
9 them. We could build rnore juvenile detention centers
10 could Put them to work there.
L1 That t s not the way I think we want to have
I2 . Pennsylvania. Thatts not the legisLature I know
13 That's not the Governor I know
14 ' Please think about these cuts. We
15 understand that there is a we will take our we
up with 16 . will be creati-ve, but we canr t come $104
L7 million. Welre not that creative. .Thank you.
18 CHAIRMANARGALL: PIease identify yourself.
IY MR. SLINGER: My name is David Slinger.
20 Irm also with Gaudenzia and Irm here today rea]Iy aS a
2t repre.sentativer as a recovery person who fi.ted
22 from State funding for treatment.
I would like to say good afternoon to 23 .the 24 Chairman and the members of the committee. And I
25 would like to express my appreciation. First of all 39
l_ as Representatives of the Commonwealth, I would like
2 to thank you for the public funding that paid for my
3 treatment 2L years ago without which I truly believe I
4 would be.-: f would be dead today.
tr f ' d also thank you for the. opportunity to
6 give testj-mony and speak on behalf of the tens of
thousands of addicts and alcoholics who will- be denied
I access to treatment if we donrt.reinstate these funds.
9 And make no mistake about it, many people
10 will die as a direct resuLt of these budget cuts if
L1 these funds are not reinstated. My intention is to
t2 present myself to you as someone who has benefited
1? from State funded treatment services, to be one
I L4 example; living proof that this money is well spent ' IJ and has an impact
16 : I've benefited from this funding. My
77 parents have benefited. My children have benefited.
18 And my community has benefited
19 In the bl-ue coIIar Philadelphia.
20 neighborhood where I grew up, abuse of alcohol and
2T drugs by teenagers'was almost a right of passage.
22 For some it was a phase. They drank,
23 smoked pot, took a few pil]s, and gradually moved on
24 to a more responsible way of life..
25 For others like myself, this was the 40
1 beginning of a slippery slide downhill that . leads
2 insidiously to a life of degradation and pain for all
{ , that is good and valued is swept away. And you reach
9 a point where the only future you can see is a prlson
cel1 or a grave. And the sad thing is that you become
6 resigned to'thut and you accept it.
7 My addiction lasted about a decade from the
B age of 15 to 25. Although I used before the age of
Y 15, by the age of 15 .I had a serious problem.
L0 During that'decade of addiction, especially
1l_ the last half of it, I was unemployed. I. was a
L2 criminal. I was a danger to my community. I will not
13 go into detail about the crimes I committed. I was
L4 like many other addicts. I stoIe. , I lied. I
15 cheated.. I committed petty crimes and serious crimes. l-o At times under the influence I was a serious menace.
17 I had two good parents. and I only later when
IU I had children of my own did I begin to comprehend the t_9 pain that f put them through. Fortunately for il€r my
20 criminal activity l-ed. me to the doors of Gaudenzia in
21 '81, in 1-98l-.
22 And when I went into treatment, my only
23' motivatj-on was to avoid going to prison. I had no
24 desire to stop my drug use. Actually, that's an - 25 .understatement 41
'l- When I arrived at Gaudenziars doors, I did
2 not know that such a thing was possible. I had never
met a recovering addict.
4 The idea of living without drugs was so
q. foreign to me that I could not grasp- the concept. An
addict was who f was. It was part and parcel of my
7 identity.
x After being in treatment for some . time and
9 being exposed to recovering people that were just Like
1-0 me who told stories and shared feeLings that were just
L1 like mine, I slowly began to accept the truth about
L2 who f was and what I was doing to myself. And I began
IJ to realize that life without drugs was possible.
1,4 Early in my recovery I struggled with the
clean and sober forever. But at some idea of staying l6 point I came to believe in the concept of one day at a
L7 time and realized I did not have to worry about
IB staying clean forever, just today.
t9 With individual and group counseling and
20 all of the other tools of recovery made available to
2L me in treatment, I changed.
22 I can now divide my life into clear pre and
23 post treatment. In a very real- sense f was not the
24 same person by the time I completed treatment.
25 Immediately after the treatment I was employed. I 42
1 chose to remain working j-n the f ield of treatment and
2 recovery.
3 Shortly after leaving treatment, t was
4 married. With the encouragement of'other staff at the
facility where I worked, I d.ecided to return to
6 school. And. eventually I was able to graduate magna
7 cum laude from the Wharton School.
B I remember I was at Penn holding in my hand
9 my Penn student ID and the ID that I still had from
10 the Philadelphia House of Corrections. I used to
11 think that these two photo IDs would be a very good
L2 advertisement. for the effect,iveness and intervention
1? of treatment. Sometimes a picture really is worth a
L4 thousand words.
I now have two children. My oldest son is
16 a senj-or at Central High School in Philadelphia. He
L7 excel-s academically. He is j ust now receiving t8 responses from his college applicatlons.
1_9 And I think of the children of active
20 addicts. And I rm grateful that f rm there for my two
2L sons to gj-ve them the support that they need
22 f come from a large family. Irm one of
23 nine children. Three of my siblings have had
24 substance abuse probl-ems severe enough to warrant
25 treatment. A11 three by the time the treatment was 43
1 necessary to save their lives were unemployed and
2 unLnsureo. ,
Even if they had jobs with insurance
4 coverage as this progressive disease took its toII,
all of that was gone by the time they decided to call
6 the rehab. This is a very common process.
7 AlI four of us had to rely on some form of ' I public funding to enter treatment. Of the four of usr
Y three are currently sober, more than 20 percent. One,
10 my older brother, has died of an overdose. Treatment
1L of this disease like treatment for cancer or any other
L2 life-threatening disease is not always successful
13 My younger brother whose treatment was by
14 BHSI now has five years of sobriety and is working on
15 his bachelor's degree.
16 Without sounding boastful, I can also say
17 that those of us who have stayed sober have had an
1B impact on others, what Michael was talking about, that
19 recovery does spread
20 I cannot tell- you how many times I have
2t made phone calls to families, to treatment facilities,
22 or how many times I have driven people to rehab to z5 start the process.
24 I know from my own experience the
25 possibility of change. I knew that if they took what 44
L was offered, that the day that I dropped them off at t 2 the treatment facility could be the beginning of a
J whole new.Iife and for many it was. I know that your
constituents want treatment to be avai-Iable to those
q who need it and seek it.
6 If there is an indigent crack or heroin
7 addict who decided he or she has had enouqh misery and
B wants to change, your constituents want that help to
9 be availabLe.
10 To deny treatment to someone who needs it
l_L and seeks it is j-mmoral-. And further, it is not in
72 the best interest of the community at large
1? An active addict is going to cost the
14 Commonwealth money. It is not just the cost of X
1q. number of days in jail per year. There is the cost of
L6 probation officers, pr€sentence investigators, public
t7 defenders. A11 of these things have to be paid for.
1B ' There are medical costs. There are crimes
19 against property and the associated insurance costs.
20 And there is the cost we cannot put a value orlr the
2L l-oss of human lives and the devastation of families
22 and communi-ties.
23 As I said earlier, if treatment was not
24 available to rn€r I would have died. . This is not an
25 overdramatization. And I beg this committee to bring 45
t- this message back to the general House membership.
2 The message is if these cuts are not.
reinstated, many people will die needlessly. They
4 wiIl die. for. nothing because the desired savings will
5 not be realized. The cost of doing nothing is
6 sometimes greater than the cost of action.
7 There are others more knowl-edgeable and.
B qualified than me who can provide you with all of this
9 data. I. noti-ced, you know, $3 to $7, $3 to $12. But
10 what Deb Beck said is clear, that the fact that there
11 is a multiple of savings is not debated by any of the
12 research.
1? So please do not 1et people die of some
L4 J-magr_nary savings that will never be realized. I nanK
15 you again for the opportunity to speak to you.
16 CHAIRMAN ARGALL: Mr. Tennis and Mr . NoIes,
L7 please. Pl-ease identif y yourself and begin as soon
1B you're prepared
19 MR. TENNIS: Good afternoorrr- Chairman
20 Argal1, Chairman Evans. I thank you very, very much
2t for the opportunity to testify here today
22 I have over the past L7 years represented
23 the Pennsylvania District Attorneyt s Association as
24 Iegislative liaison, chief of legislation in the DA's
25 office in PhiIade1phia, and Irm also secretary of the 46
1 National Alliance on Model State Drug Laws.
z I have testified many, many times in the
3 House .Iudiciary and Senate Judiciary Committees. Irm
4 usually here asking for tougher laws. I represent the
prosecutors around the state and we reaIly have a
6 single mission.
7 And our single mission is to urge in the
B legislature to urge whatever policies that are there
9 that we can that will bring down crime, that will make
10 our stree.ts safer and our homes safer for aII
l_1 Penns ylvani ans . . 1,2 I think of the many, many countless times
13 that I've testified on so many issues. I donrt l-4 think in fact, it is clear to me there has never l_5 been an issue that I testified on that is as important l_o as the j-ssue today in terms of impact on crime. This t7 is number one. This is the most important issue.
1B And I l-ook at all of the times I I ve
19 testified. Right now this is the one that I care
20 about the most because this is the one that will do
2t the most to make our streets safer. Or if these cuts
22 go through, Lo make our streets and our homes more
23 dangerous than they have been in the 23 years that
24 . Ifve been a prosecutor. 25 For most prosecutors if we donrt think 47
1 deeply about it
2 the success rate for treatment is not 20 percent, it
3 .is zero percent. Because when you're a prosecutor and
4 somebody gets treatment whether it is part of
5 probation or parole, the only way you see them again
o i q i f l-horr f ail. So we only See the f ailures in the
7 District. Attorneys' business.
X And yet when you Look at the research
9 actualfy, when I was appointed by President Bush, the
10 dad, as executive director for tLre Presidentrs
11 Commission on ModeL State Drug Laws, I have to say t2 that as a long-time prosecut,or even then in |gg2 I was
L3 skeptical about treatment because of what I said.. The
L4 system sifts out the successes. And the failures,
1-5 they all come back to us.
16 We contracted with Rutgers. I wanted to
1.7 know the truth because I thought I met with Deb
1B Beck who I had known and talked about treatment and it
19 seemed sensible. But I was realIy'skeptical about
20 whether it worked because I knew what I knew. I saw
2t what I saw. ' 22 We contracted. with a team of e.conomists
23 from Rutgers University. And I said, Iook, I know zq that there are reams of research out ther'e. Donrt do
25 new research. ,Just go through and do a 4B
1 microanalysls of all of the research that has been
2 done on cost benefit and on an impact on crime. And
teIl me what do an anaLysis. How good is the
research? Who did grood research? .4 .Who did bad q research? But give me kind of.a final take on whether
A we should be recommending strong treatment Iaws.
7 They came back and showed after doing
B spending I think about I or g months. We spent a lot
9 of money on the study. And.they came back showing a
10 minimum of $3 return very quickly for every dolLar
1L spent. t2 They showed. what every study has shown
L3 since then in terms of crime. And this is the issue
Iq we care about. And that is for people that are'in the
1_5 criminal justice system who get clinically appropriate
16 drug and alcohoL treatment it results in anywhere in
L7 the neighborhood of two-thirds to 70 percent reduction
L8 in future criminal activity. That is big, biq
19 ]-mpacc. . 20 ' There is no policy I can point to. There
2T is nothing in prevention. There is nothing in tougher
22 sentencing. There is nothing I can point to that
23 comes close to that kind of impact in terms of
24 reducing crime
25 For those of you who are skeptical about 49
I this, I guess you'd have to ask yourself why would the
2 Pennsylvania District Attorneys Association:- and it
-? is not just me. This is a unanimous position of the
4 DArs Association. Why would the prosecutors, the
elected district attorneys, al-I 67 around the state,
6 be so strongly supportive of drug .and al-coho}
.1 treatment? And that I s because when we go into court
I and we see the offenders coming through day-by-day,
9 day-after-dayr w€ek-after-week, we can see that what
10 the research shows is true. ' l_1 That about 80 percent -- and I think those t2 figures are even low based on my.experience. BO
13 percent of the people that are arrested in
L4 Pennsylvania have serious substance abuse problems. l-5 And the more serious the crime, the more likely it is l_o that they have a substance abuse problem.. t7 Pennsylvania Department of Corrections t8 reported a few years back at a meeting that I was at
19 that 92 percent of the State prison population had
20 serious substance abuse problems.'
2t Now if these cuts go through when these
22 people get out and they do get out they are
23 going to get out and there is not going to be
24 treatment'for them. They are going to hit the streets
25 st111. addicted; And they may have been free or may 50
not have been free of drugs during the time that they
' were in prison. But with the best of intentions that
they might have when they hit the streets, if they
don't get treatment they. are going to be using again.
q They are going to be dangerous again. There is going
6 to be more crime. It is going to be
7 State of Pennsylvania what is going' t'o happen. to crime '. B if these $104 million cuts go through.
9 I ask your let I s not do the experiment with
10 the -- with the safety of our citizens at stake. I 'urge L1 you this is not a right wing, ,this is not a left
L2 Iing issue. The research is truckloads of research
13 showing this and Irve looked at this. And my interest
14 ir thrs, like I say, is so1ely crime.
15 I just want to tal-k real quickly in
16 Pennsylvania, we divert over we have a thousand t7 people a day that are shifted from our prisons in
1B Philadelphia back that are in treatment that
19 otherwise would be in our prison system. Thatfs just
20 in Philade1phia.
2L Statewide that is going to be a much, much
22 Larger f igure. So whatever money t,he $f 04 million ' 23 involved, it is going to require much, much more money
24 to go back into prisons.
25 Alternatively, we could spend money . on 51
neither and just put dangerous, addicted offenders
back out on the street. I don't think it is a good
idea. From the prosecutorrs perspective, the first
4 duty, first obligation of government is to protect the
5 safety our citizens whether that be from foreign
6 powers, whether that be from terrorists: or whether
7 that be from people committing crime in our state.
I . This 9104 million is the most important
9 part of the budget I think in terms of fulfilling that
L0 highest obl iqration o f gove rnment
11 Therefore, I just urge you. And if I could
L2 get down on bended knee and beg and it would make a
13 difference, I would do that. I urge you to do
L4 whatever it takes to get that money back into the
15 budget. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN ARGALL: Mr. Noies, if you will
T7 identify yourself, please.
18 MR. NOLES: My name is Dj-ckie Noles . Iam
19 a recovering alcoholic. Irve been sober f9. 20 years.
20 I work for the Philadelphia Phillies and it is alr
2L honor to be here and thank you very much.
22 I am an employee assistance was a
23 former player. So I like those cheers for'the
24 Phi11j-es. And we I re going to run away with it. Mark
25 my words 52
1 I was a former baseball player. But now
2 Irm an emp.loyee assistance director of the.
? Philadelphia PhilLies . I get to dj-rect myself so
4 that's pretty neat.
But I rm also a recovering addict which I
6 tol-d you. My drug of choice was a1cohol. And the
7 other day I -- this meeting just kind of.spurred
B somb everything I heard here just made me feel
9 better and'better about myself. I alway" people !u11 10 God loves me in splte of knowj-ng me. And always tell
11 people my wife loves me in spite of knowing me too.
1,2 But when I told my wj-fe I was coming here
1_3 today and she said, well-, that should be right up your
L4 aIley. Your compassion and your passion is drug and
15 alcohol. It has been something I've given my whole
16 Iife to.
1,7 And when Irm done speaking, f hope yourlI
1B understand. why, not just because of me personally. t9 The other day I called DaIIas Green up and I called
20 hirn up and said, hey, D, this is Dickie . I I m in
21 Reading. Irm working with a player up here. I just
22 wanted to share something with you. Itrs April 9th. ' 23 ft's my 2Oth'anniversary of being sober. And he
24 didnrt call me back.
25 I was pretty agitated with him because he's 53
1 s everybody back. I .2 But he finally called me back and he was in tears. He ? was saying to.me that I really -- of all the things
4 ever experienced in my 1ife, to have the opportunity
5 to force you into treatment was one of them.
6 And Dallas did. When I went into
7 treatment, I was skeptical about treatment because I
B didn't think it would ever work on And I went
9 into treatment and it worked. And to share that with
10 you, I come f rom a l-itt1e bit of a dif f erent home.
11 My mother,was raped. Thatrs how I became
t2 child. She was a person never -- that never had a
L3 drink in her 1ife, never had a drug but probably was
l-4 affected by drug and alcohol more than anybody. I ever
J-J met in my life; and I've spoken to 3rOOO schools and
l_6 to many prisons. I do prison ministry too.
17 And, you know, the interestinq thing about
1B prison ministry and I ' 11 be in Clj-nton, New ,Jersey,
19 next week speaking to the women's prison up there
20 And you walk in and you have got a captive
2T audience, donrt get me wrong there
22
23 would have never done that if it woul-dnrt have been
24 for my drinking. I would have never done that if it
25 hadnrt been for the drugs. And if it wouldn't have 54
1 been for marijuana the drug everybody thinks is so
2 saf e -- I wouldn't be here today. And it is l-ike they
3 just come out and just as honest as can be and I would
4 say the numbers have to be higher than B0 percent of
why people are in pri-son today.
6 And as I thought about how to share with
7 this panel here about what recovery is and how
I treatment works, I thought about Christopher,
Y Brittany, and Nicholas. My two boys are Christopher
1o and Nicholas. My daughter is Brittany. Shets L7. l_1 And I thought about how .my mother went
I2 through her whol-e life and gave her life that I would
13 have a life. And I thought about how she reaIly never
14 understood the word and I believe everybod.y in here l_5 can kind of relate to this. This is not one of my l-6 normal speeches.
17 But f usually tell people that we all want
18 to be loved, belong, and be capable. And when I go
19 around to schools all across the country, I can tell
20 you that those children sitting in those seats, many
2L of those children experience what my mother
22 experienced, never hearing the words I love you.
23 kids hear it so much get angry .My they at 24 me. But my mother never had those word.s uttered to
25 her,. and she grew up in an alcoholic family that was 55
' I le f t. unt-reated.
2
AII -- as a matter of fact, I'm pretty successful.
4 I'm the oldest living male on my mother's sid.e of the
5 family and Ifm only 46 years old and addiction took
6 most of them.
7 , L really have dedicated^ my life to this.
B And I remember the first year I got the opportunity to
Y speak on this. I have been a major league baseball
10 player. I have a World Series ring. I hardly every
11 wear it. But I put it on when f go to the ballpark
L2 and I have to work tonight. And being in e World ' 13 Series was an accomplishment. And here in
I 14 Philadelphia, what a city. We won one. So we need
l_5 another
l-6 . But the day we won that, I thought this is L7 the ultimate for me. Nothing will ever touch this.
IX Etqr.since I was a kid in my backyard throwing up
1_9 aluminum foil my mother came from poverty -- and
20 hitting it with a broomstick, that was my baseball 'and 21, imagining in the seventh game of the Worl-d Series
22 I I l-l- have an opportunity to win the game, buy my
ZJ mother a house and everything would be, you know,
ztI perfect in life
25 And I thought about how what the 56
l_ world - what in the world happened to me? How did I
2 end up getting sued? How did I end up beating people
up? How did I end up getting kicked out of Venezuela?
4 Itm a pretty decent person. When Irm sober, I donrt
5 bother anybody
6 How did all of this happen to me? And I
7 woke up on April 9th of 1983 in a treatment facility
R going how in the world did this happen. I only
Y thought about my mother.
10 I pitched a one hitter againsL Tom Seaver.
11 And. I.remember my mother calling me up and saying when
12 people came through the gas station to pay me, they 'that's 13 were saying your son on Monday night baseball t4 that pitched that great game. Now. they are watching l_5 me on 60 Minutes and paying her going 'is that your l_6 son, that alcoholic that went into treatment for
T7 beating people.up. Boy, hers a Iittle bit of a nut.
18 And I thought about that. And I said, how t9 in the world can we put really a dollar figure on the
20 type of thing werre talking about here today?
2L When I sat on my mother I s death bed on
22 April 13th of Lgg7, she said I caused you to become an
23 addict. I said, rror mom, you did not. I chose to
24 become an addict. I chose to drink It was my
25 choice. But once f started drinking, I.didnft have
2 that choice. I wanted to be sober. I wanted to be.a
J Christian. I. wanted to -- many times I would set in '4 the shower as water poured down on me and Ird gor
,5 Lord, why'canrt I do things rj-ght? And I'd sdy, you
6 ,know, I must be the most useful I mean useLess, not
7 usefuL. I must be the worst person Irve ever met on
the face of the earth. I dontt even think I deserve
9 to live. Although, I have never thought about
10 suicide. I know people have but I never have. l-1 But as f sat in that shower and that water
L2 woul-d run on n€r I would think to myself , why am I --
1J why am'I even in this situation where I can even
14 affect children by throwing a baseball.
15 Now I wonder why I was in a situation to
L6 get treatment because f could. throw a baseb.al-I and
L7 there'are people out there if I would have never
1B signed with the Philadelphia PhilIies, I don't think
Lv I'd have been provided treatment. And because I coul,d
20 throw a baseball halfway decent, f got great
2L treatment.
22 When I went into the treatment facility and
23 came out, I said, It11 never give a talk. That I s one
24 thing that they told me in treatment I had to do. And
25 I said, Ir11 never do it. And they said, you will 5B
l_ also have the opportunity to let go and grow. This is
2 just not the part of treatment that you stop at. You
? got sober. Now it is time to find out what life is
4 all about. And when I 1et go and I started to grow, I : 5 went out in the communitv. And I went down to Texas
A and a fellow friend of my by the name of Bobby Bragan
7 had me go to an elementary school of alL schools to
I give a talk
Y And after endi-ng up in Texas, f thought
10 Texas was not the American League. I thougtrt they
l_L were Triple A. I mean I got traded from the Chicago
L2 Cubs to the Texas Rangers.
1J I mean my goodness. fn Chicago they
L4 cheered. In Texas they came with Detroit Tiger hats
15 and everything eIse. That was pre-Nol-an Ryan but
16 as Irm sitting in the school waiting to give. my talk,
I:7 I thought.what can I possibly say to these kids? Itve
tx been sober exactly one year of my life.
19 And I realized that there is important'
20 things in Life like God and getting married and having
2L children other than just throwing a baseball and
22 drinking.
23 I thought all baseball players did what I
zq did. And I found out Later on that they did not. And I 25 just to not get off base here and to think that there 59
l- is only -- you know, I heard somebody say this earLier
z and it hit my head. All of the baseball players that
J appeared in the papers. like myself, there is 1O and 15
4 and 20 per 1 that have gotten sober that you don't
q know abo.ut and some of them are even in the HalI of
6 Fame
7 So we need to understand thatr'and.they
B have the ability to keep their anonymity. Mine was
9 broken. I was told to go out and give these taIks.
L0 And that day in deep Da1las, Fort Worth, Texasr my
1l- life ,was. changed forever. Not because I got sober,
l2 but because I realized. there were other people out
13 there with the same problem as me.
L4 was sitting there giving my talk and a I 15 9-year-ol-d boy came up. And I heard that we have
16 given up the white fIag. I wilL never give up. But I
t7 hope someday I rm without a job. But I will teli- you
18 this, that the research that you read about drugs
19 being down, thatrs an absolute 1OO percent bold-face
20 1ie.
.2r Go to any high school- in America and they
22 are going to teII you your kids are smoking dope more
23 today than any other time. They are going to tell
zq you they are drinking more than any other time. And
25 they are going to tell you they donrt even know what 60
1 treatment is.
2 And f guarantee you can go right down,the
? street here. You can go wherever yo.u want to go
4 because..I rve done 3, OO0 school programs since my
.q sobriety. I don't know how you can put a price on
6 that. But I have been fortunate enough to walk around
7 and go to schools and give a message and have a whole
B basement full of letters where people said they turned
9 their lives around by the right messaqe and people
10 have said they accessed treatment.
1r , But the day it all started for me was the
L2 day a 9-year-oLd boy puIIed. on my shirt and sa j-d, Mr.
13 Noles, I have the same problem that you have
t4 And f looked at that litt1e boy 9 years old
15 and said you can't be an alcohofic. I mean there is
t-0 no way. He goes, youfre right. frm a drug addict.
1.7 My heart sank all the way down to my shoes. I said to
1B myself, what do I do?
19 Bobby Braganr dt that time the Texas 'Community 20 Rangeis Service Director, Iooked at me and.
2T said we don't know what to do. you better know what
22 to do b.ecause you went to treatment. I said Irve only
z5 been sober oqe year. I don I t know what to do. So I
24 got on the phone, and I cal-Led a treatment facility. I 25 This 9-year-o1d boy had a cocaine-addicted 61
1 mother. This 9-year-oId watched her snort cocar-ne
2 every night and decided to say to some of his friends
I qrrv=nA nrlF let s go down and see what they. are doing .tl s u
4. cocaine up his nose
q This 9-year-oId boy today has graduated
6 from a 4-year university. This 9-year-o1d boy today
7 has turned his whole life around and is now a teacher.
I Something mor-e important than a baseball player could
9 ever touch. And he is now teaching chil-dren and
10 w6rking all day just like I do, going out hoping he
l-1 can affect somebody to stay away from drugs and
\2' aIcohol. o 13 I think that story in itsel-f is far bigger tn end better than any story I could teII here today. I
15 would l-ike to share one story in closing with you. . 16, When I heard someone over here talking -- I think it
L7 was your Michael, talking about where do these people
l_B go when we train them, what ability do they have?
19 You knowr rny children were in the car the
20 other day and my son said to one of my baseball
2l players who I p.rcked up I have to pick up LO kids a
22 day. I coach. He said to Irr€r Mr. No1es, I I ve never
23 heard you curse. I said, I dontt curse. And my boys
.A 19 were kind of in the back going yeah, right. And I
25 said to -- I look at my son and I said, I don't curse. 62
1 Guys, you know that. They go, dad, you use that word
2 hell and you donrt use it according to the biblical
3 version all the time. And you use that word damn and
4 you ain't'taLking about water
.And I thought, that's the impact that my
children have got watching me grow up in my family.
7 Til"y, have gotten the right message, They have been
B raised right. So if I have done anything in my life,
9 I have raised my children to this point I got a
L0 L7-year-old daughter Lord l-et me live I hope to
1t_ continue to be positive. But I wonder what kind of t2 father would I have been with the addiction problems t3 that r had.
14 And I thought that where do we train these
ar J.J kids? I,want to teLl you I had a young baseball
16 player come to me this spring training and tell rr€r t7 Mr. No1es, Irm in recovery. I said, is that right?
1B He goesr yeah. And f appreciate the talk you gave
19 yeslerday, and f would like to get out to some
20 meetings. I said, how long have you been sober? And
2L he tol-d me.
22 And I said, well, teII me a little bit more
23 about your life. And this is the kids we don't train.
24 He said, weLL, vou know, I used to seLl drugs. I
25 said, how did you sel-l- drugs? He said, weII, I worked ' L at Burger King. What do you mean, Burger King? I '. 2 didn't get the point there. He said, well, you canft
5 work at McDona1drs. I said, why not? He said, Burger
4 King is open l-ater than McDona1d' s .
J He said, you know, all- the'kids play ba1l : 6 and they come in there and they got basketball games
7 and stuff. He said, you know what I do? I teIl them
I I work for you. You go play your basketball game.
9 You go play your football game. Let me work and I get
L0 that big check. And I don't cash it, Mr. No1es. I i-1 take that little pouch that these kids wear today and
1_2 I put my l-ast check in there and I quit. I really
13 didntt work at Burger King to earn a living. I worked
L4 at Burger King to come up with a disguise.
15 I sat on the streets and sell drugs. When l-6 the cops come by, they look at me. I sayr wdit a t7 minute, wait a minute. I just got off work.. Here is
18 my check. And I give the cop my check. And he said,
19 good boy, now go on home. And Irve got a reason to be
20 on the streets late. Hr: said, but, you know, the
2t important part of what I want to telL you, Mr. Noles,
22 is Irve got HIV. I go, is that right? He said, yeah.
23 And he says, I came forward to teII you
24 that f'm in recovery. But f also want you to know to
25 take precautions'so that f can keep everybody, 64
L protected around here. I said, weLl, how did that
2 happen? Do you even know?
3 He goes, we11, yeah, I know. S€€r there
4 are hookers on the streets. When I am out there
5 selling drugs, I get to know these hookers very well.
6 And when Irm out there, he says, once in a whiLe the
7 boys go,. hey, you knowr You can go talk to them gir1s.
x And f said, I don't want to do that. ' And every now
9 and then they wil-1 come over to me and sdY, could I
1_0 have some of that? And f gor rlo way. I got to selI
Ll this to make a living so I can buy my mother a
L2 refrigerator or something
13 And the guys told rt€r wel-l-, cut it up and
I L4 give her some and then you might get some sex. He
1q said, Mr. No1es, the temptation of being male, to be a
1_6 man hit me troo strong'and .d I did that.that But nobody told
L7 me that.those hookers were infected with HIV.
IB This same boy told me that he dated about
IY 15 girls in high school and had sex with about l-5
2o girls in high school. Thatrs why we canrt let this
2L' $ 104 mil-Iion go. Because I don' t know about your but
22 I got a l7-year-old daughter that I love enough to
23 stand in front of a truck and die for. And I donr t
24 want my 1-7-year-o1d daughter coming in contact with
25 that young man because nobody provided addiction 65
1 treat,ment for that young man until after the fact.
2 I want to thank you very much and I want to
J thank your Deb Beck, and God bless each and every one
.4 of you. And just use your hearts when you make these
5 decisions.
6 CHAIRMAN ARGALL: I'd like to thank each of
.1 'on those who have presented testimony both the human
B service cuts as welL as the drug and al-cohol cuts.
9 I think speaking for the committeei that
10 was f rom..the f irst witness to the last very, very
11 powerful testimony. Now f wouLd like to hear from
L2 Secretary Estelle Richman on behalf of the Department
J.J of Public WeLfare.
L4 If each of you would identify yourself, l-5 please. l-o SECRETARYRICHMAN: Good afternoon, t7 Chairman Argall and Chairman Evans, Representatives
18 and staff of the House Appropriations Committee. I am
19 Estelle Richman and I am .the Secretary of Public 'table 20 Welfare. At the I have the following members of
2L my executive staff with me today: Mike Nardone and
22 Steve Rosskopf. . z5 Throughout my career, there have been
24 several occasions when I have been told by people that z3 I couldn't do something in a certain way. And for 66
I those. of you who know me personally, I I ve never shied
z away from tackling a challenge. This budget is a
J challenge.
4 In fact, it makes my life in removing snow
tr in the City of Philadelphia look like itrs easy. We
6 come together today under unprecedented circumstances.
7 WhiIe the budget has passed, our discussions are just
B beginning.
9 It is important that we do discuss :- not
10 just for each of our constituencies but also for the
11' well-being of all Pennsylvanians.
T2 ffm sure everyone in this room today is
L3 aware of the significant cuts that the Department
L4 took. As you know, this administration inherited a
budget deficit estimated to be $2.4 billion for the t6 next fiscaL year.
L7 In order to present a balanced. budget as
1B required. by the 1aw, the Governor proposed
19 department-wide reductions that he said he hated and I
20 have termed draconian.
2t Because DPW represents more than a third of
22 the State general fund, the department shouldered a
23 majo.r portion of the def icit reduction burden ' 24 Although the DPW budget spares basic health
25 coverage for those on medical assistance, I recoqnize 67
"that l_ maly vulnerable people have been affected by this
2 budge t .
J Men ur,q women struggling with addictj-ons
4 have been affected by this budget. Victims of . violence and abuse have been affected. And our
6 neighbors, friends, and family struggling to make a
7 better Life for themsel-ves -- themselves and their
X chil-dren are affected
9 the future we must integrate our
10 services. We must work together with our sister
11 agencies and within the department
t2 ' In order to focus on the services we
13 deliver, the department must also improve itself. And t L4 I am committed to working with you to explore all
l-5 avenues of non-state funding sources to help plug
16 budget gaps
L7 As you know, the goal and vision of the
18 Department of Public Welfare is to enhance the ability
LY of Pdnnsylvanians who have life challenges to lead
20 . fult and vibrant lives.
2L This is a department whose . entj-re mission ' 22 is about serving people, vulnerabl-e people. And in a
23 time when we cannot do everything'that we would like
zq to do, we must focus on essential'quality-of-life I 25 issues: moving families toward self:sufficiency; 6B
1 safe, affordabl-e child care; health care services;
2 supports for adult and children with disabilities; and
J protecting children who suffer abuse and neglect.
4 As we move forwardr w€ must keep those
q reserved. in the forefront of our deliberative process
6 and keep in mind that the decisions made here have an
7 affect on mothers, fathers, and children living across
X our great Commonwealth.
9 We must remain committed to doing
10 everything in our power to make a difference and to
11 improve the lives of our families and children.
T2 know we al-I share this as a goal. t3 Thank you for an opportunity to come before
L4 the Appropriations Committee today. These j-ssues are
15 critical to al-I of usr and I would be happy to answer
1_6 your questions at this time
L7 CHAIRMAN ARGALL: Thank you, Madam l_8 Secretary. And frlL try to obey my own rule that I've l_9 encouraged my col-Ieagues to be concise and to the
20 point in asking the questions
21, We heard a variety of testimony today on
22 the subject of drug and alcohol funding. In looking
23 at the cuts that the Governor recommended to the
24 General Assembly, I would assume that the Cabinet was
25 to some degree involved in those cuts 69
l- Is there any research that shows .that the
z number of people in need of d.rug and alcohol services
3 will be declining in future years? Was that at all
4 part of the rationale in the cuts a's presented to the
5 General Assemblv?
SECRETARYRICHMAN: No. In fact in light
of the recession that the number of peopl-e who use
B abuse substance abuse as a way to heal pain wiLl
9 probably- increase in the future, not decrease.
19 CHAIRMANARGALL: As far as the rationale , 11 for the funding for the behavioral- services and the
L2 Act. 152 funding, I think we heard today that whil-e we
13 might save money in DPW it coul-d in turn create
I L4 additional costs for the department of corrections.
l_5 Have those numbers been carefully analyzed by the
16 administration?
T7 SECRETARYRICHMAN: My knowledge base
18 and again.two months ago f was supervising the prison
19" system here in Philadelphia. And. certainly there is a
20 direct relationship between the effectiveness of drug
21 treatment and whether or not we have drug treatment
22 and whether or not we see more people in the prisbn
23 system.
24
25 Philadelphia were very ef f ective, and we were abl-e to 70
1 see dramatic drops in the prison population over the
2 last .several years.
And certainly if we take that treatment
4 opportunity away, we will see prison populations go
5 up. I don't know yet the relationship entirely
6 between the State prison system and the loca1 prj-son
7 systems, jail systems. But certainly without drug and
B alcohol treatment available, the prj.son population
9 begins to jump pretty dramatically.
l_0 CHAfRMAN ARGALL: You mentioned in your
l_l testimony that at least part of the ratj-onale for the
L2 cuts in human services and drug and alcohol was the
13 fact that we were looking at State-only dollars that
I L4 were not matched by the federal dolLars. As we r re
15 wrestling with these cuts, werre still trying to
t_o understand the big picture
t7 Was that I mean first and foremost the main
1B reason,theon1yreasonthatthese1inej.temswere
IY targeted for cuts?
2d SECRETARYRICHMAN: I think as the folks
2t who handle the budget look at any department and look
22 at departmental cuts, they try to not sacrifice
23 f ederal dol lars at al-l f or state dollars.
24 And certainly in this budget that was
25 passed, that is to a large degree the case. The 71
number -- the largest amount of dollars in the
2 Department of Public Welfare actually comes from the
{ department -- comes from the federal government.
.i So aLmost every doll-ar that is capable of
r drawing down federaL dollars does that. The
6 department, Irm sure, looked at a variety of different
7 ways of reaching the target number. And the target
I number for DPW whs SL.1 billion that had to be cut out
9 of the budget.
10 And in doing that, the places looked were
1_1 indeed places that you wouldnrt affect federal match.
L2 And in fact, some of that $1.1 billion does affect l_3 federat match because there were no other places to
14 Iook for dollars.
15 . The dollars -- the al-ternatives I believe
16 and as I went back and looked at the budget and
L7 Iooking at I rm looking for the sheet that in
LB looking at "the federal where the doLlars would come
19 outr on the federal match, looked at, general
20 assistance in general and particularly the medically
2I needy-only area which is primarily state do1lars.
22 And as those dollars were el-iminated, one
23 of the trade-offs would have been able to cut medical
24 assistance in just one caEegory would have given us ' 25 the amount of dollars that we needed 72
I . And if you look just at the medically
2 need.y-onIy population, it represents about 130,000
people across the state. They are low income and they
4 have medical expenses. Their primary issue is medical
expenses that qualify them for inmate coverage. In
6 eliminating that which would have prevented all of the
7 other eliminations, we would have had to cut l-30,000
B people without health coveragie
9 Of that l-30, O0O people, many of them live
L0 in nursj-ng homes. They are the b1ind. Threy are'the
1t disabled. They are the seniors. It would have
L2 included children, pregnant women, and those that
IJ suffer a catastrophic ill-ness or disabling injury
14 And despite the devastating consequences,
L5 the eli.mination of this category would have permitted l_6 us to save enough dollars not to prevent any other
L7 cuts. The problem is there still have to be cuts
18 somewhere.
19 This is a'people budget, just a plain
2o people budget. So any cut to this budget presents a
21" challenge and how do we go back to the federal
22 government, how do we look for other opportunities r oE
23 how do we look for opportunities to buil-d on top of
24 what the Governor has recommended to be able to make
25 sure that we take care of the people in the state 73
1 CHAIRMAN ARGALL: As you: can imagine,. werre I 2 helrrng from many of our colleagues in county 3 government about the cuts in the human services
4 funding.
r What kind of advice has the administration
6 been able to provide to county commissioners' and
7 administrators in regards to those cuts?
I . : SECRETARYRICHMAN: I think for the most
9 part f tried to meet with every single group over the
l-o last month essentially and tried. to find as many ways
l_L as possible to look further in our budget to see what
12 other additional other kinds of economies we can make,
13 where are other federal dol-Lars, where are other grant
t4 dollarsr and where else can we look for non-state
15 based dollars.
16 Our hope is to continue to work with people : t' l7 to be able to get as efficient as we can internally.
18 And as you know, we took a $34 miLl j-on administrative
l_v cut just'to the administration.
20 So we're even looking beyond to see what
2L else we can do to be able to replace as many of these
22 dollars as we possibly can.
23 But the main source of dolIars happens to
24 be the federal- government or looking for ways grants
25 and other grants and foundations can be gathered. 74
I ' 2 then at which time you're going to come back to the
3 General Assembly with suggestions on restoring this
4 cut but cut here instead?
SECRETARYRICHMAN: We11, you know, the
A budget has been passed. So our challenge right now is
7 to find other opportunities that we can do it. And
B ' Irm not sure this is such a lrve heard it phrased a
variety of different waysr dn unusual circumstance.
10 : CHAIRMANARGALL: That is certainly true.
11 SECRETARYRICHMAN: I Im not even Sure what
L2 the format 1s right now to come back and begin to
13 discuss with folks some of the opportunities we think
14 that we can garner. l-5 And but we are we actually want very
16 much to work with you. And if there is a way that you
17 want to suggest how to relook at this budget or how to
18 r build upon what the Governor has said that he wants to
19 do and how we can sort of put this on top of thatr w€ ' 20 are very willing to work with you to do that.
2! CHAIRMANARGALL: Thank you. And Irm sure
22 that we wiff Ue doing just that at the conctusion of
23 these hearings. Representative Evans.
24 EPRESENTATIVE EVANS: Thank you, Mr.
25 Chairman. Good afternoon, Madam Secretary. 75
t SECRETARYRICHMAN: GOOd AfICTNOON.
.2 rrd
3 like to hear a little bit on the area of health care.
4 About 15 years ago as a state we made a policy
5 decision of particularly people on medical assistance
6 towards the aspect of managed care. . ' 7 It seems that you and the administration
I now has kind of recommended that we go back the :
Y opposite direction with a fee-for-servj-ce system. And l_0 obviously the reason we Left the fee-for-service
L1_ system to go. to managed care was fi.rst and foremost
L2 was the issue around health care. Second. is some t< saving of dolIars.
L4 Can you tel-l- this committee in a very
15 specific way why you are in a sense recommending that . 16 you go back when it was a system where basically
[t doctors weren't willing to entertain a fee-for-service
;^ l_u system in the first place?
19 SECRETARYRICHMAN: I. have to be very
20 honest with your Representative Evans. This was a
2L rreal tough one for rt€r and Itm not sure that I can' .. 22 actually do all of the explanation of it because it is
23 counter-intuitj-ve in terms of why we went to a managed
24 care format and why going back to the fee-for-service
25 system at any level works for us. 1 . My understanding and I | 1I let Steve jump
2 in if r make a mistake is that the dollars to be
3 gained from shifting the general assj-stance
4 recipients from a capitation format to a
5 fee:for-service format and thatrs the only category
6 being shifted because it doesnrt dr.aw down federal
7 dollars is because of the cash flow ftoat.
I REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: RighI.
9 SECRETARYRICHMAN: In other words '
10 capitation is a prepaid system and. you pay it before
L1 the fact.
t2 REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: Right.
13 SECRETARYRICHMAN: The fee-for-service
L4 system retrospective system you t r.e paying
l-5 somewhere between 30, 60, or 90 days after the fact.
10 And being able to flip those systems saves the State
L7 doIlars, a fairly significant amount of dol1ars. And
L8 that is the shift. It is the cash flow shift that i-s
1_9 the primary reason for being able to do this. So it's
20 an ability to be able to gain additional dollars.
2L Now in l-ooking at that as I continue to
22 probe and to have a better understanding of how this
23 works, I think there is some ways that we can work
24 that system to be able to get the float without maybe I 25 doing the doing all of the flip 77
L So part of it is my understanding and
2 . getting up to speed to understand both the
J complexities of the budget and what leeway we may have
4 with the federal qovernment to do this.
Wer re al-so
6 shifting an administration, you also have people who
7 neef to get up speedI on the areiareas that they have
X not been as familiar with
Y But I do believe that there is a the
10 . dollars to be gained come from the float so to speak
Ll_ and moving from a prospective system, capitated
1,2 system, to a retrospective fee-for-service system.
13 And I ' 1I turn the microphone over to see
T4 how badly I did.
15 MR. ROSSKOPF: I I d say that was at l-east an l_6 A minus or an A. I don't think I can qdd
L7 significantly to that, Representative Evans. It was
1-8 Iargely a'matter, as the Secretary has indicated, of
19 trying to reiognize non-.state reimbursement for those
20 services.
2L REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: I clearly understand
22 what you have just expressed. But you recal-I the
23 "reason we went in that direction in the first place
24 was that because this population was not being cared
25 for. t_ Do you have any kind of by even .evidence 2 this flip that you're doing relating to the
beneficence of the Commonwealth or the State; on the
4 other hand, are the constituents being benefited?
6 SECRETARYRICHMAN: WelI, for the most part ' 6 flipping it, I would expect that most people wil-I stay
7 Yr.th thet'
6 ::,;r.:,-:";".'r::.."r..r,-" can srirr see
Y their doctor. Their doctor still bilIs. And since it
10 is primarily applicable to where Health Choices is
11 in other words, the parts of the state that are still
L2 on fee-for-service aren't affected by this. It is
13 only those parts that are within HeaIth Choices.
I4 REPRESENTATIVEEVANS : COTTCCI.
1q SECRETARYRICHMAN: You have two parts to
1_6 Health Choices. You have a physical- health care
L7 component, and you have a behavioral health care
L8 component. l-9 REPRESENTATIVE EVANS : COTTCCI.
20 SECRETARYRICHMAN: On the physical health
2L care component for the largest part people wiII get
22 the service they are doing now. They will continue to ' 23 see the doctor they are seeing now, and they will
24 probably stay with the framework.
25 There are servj-ces they l-ose. They lose 79
1- case management and theY Iose --'they lose some of the
2 voluntary services within that are provided'within
Health Choices.
t But for the most Part, the GA clients : basically receive the same thing are receiving !h"V physical health side 6 now on .the
7 . On the behavioral health side, the Loss is
B much more dramatic. Because the way the dollars have
9 worked, the two primary additions that the Hea1th
10 Choices behavioral health entities have provided to
11 the Health Choices contract that are not in the
L2 fee-for-service are residential proqrams and what we
1? call f OP, . intens j-ve outpatient. These are two primary
I l-4 programs that came about as a result of managed care.
15 They didn't exist in the end of the fee-for-servi
76 world and'they don't exist in !h" world outside of the
I7 HeaLth Choices areas.
l_o.A
19 they get dropped. Now there are some alternatives t'o
20 this one that we are beginning to investigate with the
21 federal government that may help mitigate that which
22 means we open the for example, we open the Medicaid
23 plan.' We begin to put some of these things in the
zt+ .plan and work.with the federal government to see if we
25 can change how the Medicaid plan works for us..' 80
1 And again, I tm going to look at as many
2 places I can to be able to look at some of these
3 issues, find solutions to some of these issues.
.t Particularly I mean this is where I spent the last
5 ten years of my Life
6 So it is obvj-ous that Irm not going to want
7 to take away programs that I spent so much time
B building up.
9 REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: And I guess I wouLd
10 only say to you that obviously I understand that in'
1L your case and in the Governor I s case that the t2 situation that you and the Governor walked. into is not
13 something you all created and I know that you had to t4 make difficult choices.
15 I only raise the question in terms of some t6 form of valuation of the decisions that you may have
L7 had to make rather quick on the fiscal side which also
1B may not save us in the long term in terms of shifting
19 the cost.
20 So that is kind of my concern is, is
27 there some way that you all are looking at to evaluate
22 that decision?
23 f und.erstand you have to balance the ' 24 budget. And I was joking with Steve. He must have
25 been to a thousand of these hearings, and you havenft 81
1 J- done bad by being at a lot of them also. I know
2 decisions have to be made; but, of course, You know
we I re balancing lives. That is what my concern was as
4 soon as f heard the recommendation.'
So I raise that dsr is there some form of
6 evaluation built in as you look at this decision as '7 .you move forward?
X SECRETARYRICHMAN: WeI1, I think that the
9 chal 1 enge .for us rigrht now is that we have a budget
10 that has been already passed. : l-1 REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: Right.
1,2 SECRETARYRICHMAN: So we need to look at
13 what. happens next and how do we either find more
14 do1Iars., how do we remedy a situation that lready
15 a fait accompli for lack of a better terminology, and
1,6 how do we n9w correct the situation that I believe
L7 that has already been sort of done l_B And my hope is that as we look at this and
19 we understand that where the Governor is heading is to
20 have a sound plan for Pennsylvania as we move forward,
2t that on top of both his education agenda and his
22 economic stimulus agendar w€ can also find ways to
23 accommoda,te some of the issues within these'budgets .
24 that I think are also very important
ZJ REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: Last question, Mr. B2
Chairman. The testimony we have heard earlierT
2 whenever you have to make reductions and you have to
? make those kinds of choices, werve heard. a lot around
question of staff reductionsr' economic !h" c. devel opment
Has that aspect been looked at
7 understanding what the impact meantf We heard one
person indicate that they may have to lay off as many
9 as I think 4OO or 41000. I mean that kind of impact
10 obviously -- I mean you know what that means to a
L1 local area. Any sense, any feelings about that?
L2 SECRETARYRICHMAN: V[e11, I know.that
13 impacted very significantly. What happened in order ': L4 for this decision to be made I canft go back to. But
1q certainly, the economic the impact on the programs
16 particularly in the Heal-th Choices area is going to be
1,7 very signif j-cant. We spent a lot of time building l.tt these programs.
19 You know I need to stop using the word we.
20 .The counties and the Health Choices prog:rams have had
2L to spend a ]ot of time buildinq up these programs.
22 They are. very effective programs.
23 The effectiveness of drug treatment in the
24 Health Choices areas is pretty profound. We know they
25 are effective. We know these programs work. We know B3
L that when we take them down, the people involved in I 2 building them up won't have j obs: We know that when people donrt get treatment, they end up in jails and
q ]-n prLsons.
q So we are very aware. Itm very aware. I
6 need to -- f tm very aware what the impact of not
7 having these programs wiII be.
B REPRESENTATIVEEVANS: Thank your Mr.
Y Chai rman
10 CHAIRMANARGALL: Thank Your Representative
1l Ll- Evans. Representative Dicirolamo from Bucks County.
L2 SECRETARYRICHMAN: Good afternoon.
l3 . REPRESENTATIVEDiGIOLAMO: GOOd AfICTNOON,
L4 Madam Chair. It is a pleasure to finally get to meet
15 you and welcome. We thank you for being here today.
L6 SECRETARYRICHMAN: Thank You. 'm. 17 REPRESENTATIVEDiGIOLAMO: I j ust going
18 to concentrate a little bit in my couple minutes on
19 the issue of the drug and alcohol funding. And we
20 heard some very compelling testimony here today that
2T t.reatment does work
22 And I can teII you from'my perspective as a
23 Representative that nothing is more frustrating to me
24 than having a parent come into my office who has a son
25 or a daughter who needs treatment, they donr t have 84
insurance; they don't have the money'to pay for
2 treatment.
J I can also tell you as a parent from a
4 personal experience that nothing is more devastating
5 on a family than having a family member addicted to
6 drugs and aIcohoI.
7 And we heard some very compelling testimony
B and at the very beginning Representative Evans said
9 this is not a parti-san issue. ..' l_0 We heard Deb Beck and she testified about a l- l_ mom calling her up at her daughterts grave site. Her
L2 daughterrs name was Ashley. And I have been through
13 two of those in my eight years as a Representative l_4 with a parent who had a son and a daughter who needed I 15 treatment and could not qet it.
16 I have a letter here that I would like to
17 read. And it is from General Barry McCaffrey who was
1B the former drug czar from the White House. He very
19 much wanted to be here todav but was not able to make
20 it. And he asked -- he sent this letter to me last
21- night and asked me if I miqht read the letter.
22 In my absence, please share this Ietter
23 with the committee at the hearing.
24 During my tenure as the director of the
25 White House Office of the National Drug Control ; 85
I Policy, I quickly realized that no serious national or I 2 state effort to reduce drug abuse can succeed without ? addiction treatment as a major component. '.4 This letter is prompted by the review of
q' "Pennsylvaniars proposed spending plan for addiction
6' treatment. The most recent budget eliminates $104
7 rnillion f or treatment of over 30, 0OO of the
I Commonwealthrs most vulnerable citizens and will
9 further devastate families i .
10 These cuts wiIl unfavorably affect
l- l_ families, crime rates, and access to emergency medical
1,2 services. In my judgment, the projected savings from
1? these. cuts will prove illusionary. Instead of paying
t4 for addiction treatments, the citizens of Pennsylvania
I5 will continue to pay for the problem with the
16 incieased crime and the accelerated use of health care
t7 by the chronically addicted
1B Research and experience have taught us that
1v addiction treatment is a wise investment. The
20 research .is extremely well-documented and persuasive. .: 2L Every dollal spent on treatment saves a
22 minimum of S? in other health care as well as in the
23 reduction of'crime. Many of us believe that the
24 aLcohol and drug addiction problem in our. country is
25 , our .most pressing domestic challenge. B6
1 With one in four families struggling to
2 help their loved ones overcome addiction to drug and
alcohol, this j-s an issue that we must confront with
4 s.giencef tesources, and compassion. Please add my . 5 'recommendation to those urging restoration of the
6 money and the t,reatment dollars in the State budget.
7 Madam Secretary, this is the first time I
B had the opportunity to meet you. Everyone who knows
9 you and,I have talked to says besides being certaj-nly
10 very capable, that you are a very carinn, . Ll- compassionate person. ' t2 ';rrm not going to ask you any questions,
13 Madam Secretary. But I would just like to promise you t4 and,pledge to you that r am willing to do anything to
L5 work with you and the administration at some point
L6 over the next few weeks or couple of months to somehow l7 get this money back and restored in our state budget.
1B 'It is critically important to the health
19 and the well-being of our famiLies here in
20 Pennsylvania.
2L SECRETARYRICHMAN: Certainly,
22 Representative, this is hopefulLy.one of our few
ZJ unique budget years.
24 Although, I'm sure each budget year has its
25 own.personality. And my hope is that even though this 87
1 budget has been passed, that we can find a way to
2 address some of these most critical issues in addition
3 . to the Governorf s i-ssue that he's also put on the
table. And that while his package moves, that we
understand the importance of the people issues related
q to this issue -- to these needs
7 REPRESENTATM DiGIOLAMO: appreciate
B that very mucLr. Thank you .
9 CHAIRMANARGALL: Representative .Iake .WheatIey 10 from Allegheny County.
11 REPRESENTATIVEWHEATLEY: Thank your Mr. 'r."r"tary. L2 Chairman. Thank you, again, Madam I want l_3 to first begin by making a comment. Irm interested to . L4 know where aII of the bipartisanship began or where
15 was it in March, j-n early March when the Governor
16 presented his budget, when we had an opportunity to
L7 talk about these cuts and what it means to.the people
1B of this.Commonwealth
19 Where were all of my colleagues from across
20 the aisle who are now sitting here saying that drug
2t and alcohol treatment is important'but they voted yes
22 for a budget that cut it out and had no conversation z5 about it? They wouldn't allow legislators to even zq debate the issue. I wish we could have had this
25 conversation in March where we can talk about the these cuts. : Honestly, I don't know how your the
Governorr. or any other person who voted for this
4 budget can honestly make these decisj-ons and say this
F is a peoplers budget. This is not a peoplefs budget.
6 This is devastating to people. And for us
7 . to sit here and play games with people's Li.vesr. I
I canft I canrt understand how we can do that
9 f can't understand how we can sit here and
10 talk about this is meaningful to people but then vote l-1 for this stuff without having conversation about it, t2 without even knowing what it means to the people.
13 If you explain to me how you .ca* can sit L4 and offer a cut to drug and alcohol, behavioral health
15 that will eliminate these programs and say that was
16 the best decision that you guys could come up with and t7 for us as a General Assembly to not even engage in
1B conversation before we pass it, how can we do that?.
L9 That I s irresponsible. How can we? That I s my
20 que s t ion
2L SECRETARYRICHMAN: I'm not sure,
22 Representative, you want me to answer the question on
23 how the General Assembly can have passed a budget
24 without debate.
25 I mean is that the question? 89
REPRESENTATIVEWHEATLEY: How could we pass
2 a budget without debate? How can we even engage in
3 having a budget presented to us with a total
4 elimination of these programs?
5 SECRETARYRICHMAN: Okay. In the wisdom of
6 my eight weeks within the State gov.ernment, my
I experience tel1s me that under normal circumstances a
U Governor presents a budget. The budget is then
9 debated over several months wj-th the Secretary talking
10 about that budget. And there is an opportunity at
least in the past from my observation where the budget t2 has chang'ed sometimes significantly between the time
13 that it . is presented and the time that it is passed t_4 with oft.en that passing of that budget showing up
somewhere in late June very close to ,fune 3oth or l-6 afterwards. i L7 And by that time, budget problems have been
L8 addressed in some wdy, adjusted, amendedr or somehow
19 where there. have been major gaps; or problems with the
20 budget, sound debate by the GeneraL Assembly has
2L brought us a budget that we typically maybe with some
22 pain though can live with
23 This year was set different in many ways in
24 the debate is taking place and the discussion is
25 taking place after the budget has passed. 90
1 And my hope is even with.this aberration IN ? our behavior, what we come out with to operate in '? fiscal yedr '03-'04 is a budget that does not hurt
el peopl e .
5 CHAIRMANARGALL: Representative Stan
o Saylor from York County.
7 REPRESENTATIVESAYLOR: Madam Secretary,
B welcome.
9 SECRETARYRICHMAN: Good afternoon.
10 REPRESENTATIVESAYLOR: Thank you for
l-1 coming before the committee today. Without the
L2 funding there will be more demand placed on hospital
l_3 emergency rooms and law enforcement systems as we
l I L4 heard here today.
L5 Do you expect the county human services
l_o delivery system that we have in the state wilt somehow
1.7 replace those costs that they have l-ost particularly
l_d in light of the fact that the most flexibl-e fundinq
LY source that is out there for county government alnd
20 county programs, Human Service Development Fund, has ,
2t been drastically reduced by 91 percent?
22 . SECRETARYRICHMAN: I obvj-ously know the
23 HSDF, Human Service Development Fund, and its
24 flexibility very wefl; and it's the most flexible
25 dollars that any county has. It I s, the way counties 91
I actually .meet those internal needs that there is no
2 other. identified funding source to do
3 The certainly I donrt believe that
4 counties are going to be able to pick up the cost of
5 the programs that are lost and many, many very good
6 proqrams are going to have to close as a . resuLt of
7 this parti-cu1ar cut. ' B 'In many ways that counties that have been
9 able to be more effective to their wronged
10 constituents and be more responsive j-s something that
l-1 actually will be lost and very, very sorely missed. 'The T2 ' dif f erence is that on some of these
13 cuts is that once they go away -.- once many of the
1"4 programs go away and whether it is the HSDF programs
L5 or whether it is the drug and alcohol programs, they
t6 wonr t come back. That ' s the true 1.oss to us .
T7 . It's not that they are getting smaller and
1B that we'can grow them back. Many of these programs
19 once they go away, wer1l never get them back again.
20 And there are some very effective, good programs that
2! will be affected.
22 My guess is in many of these cases the
23 burden will end up being picked up in a variety of
24 different places depending on how the counties use l, 25 those. dollars. But most of all, the burden is 92
1 probably going to be plcked up by the people whose
lives they would have affected.
3 REPRESENTATIVESAYLOR: Thank you. Madam
4 Secretary, the purpose of Act L52 is to increase
5 availability of appropriate and most cost effective
6 non-hospital drug and alcohol detoxification and rehab
7 services.
I The intent was to est"ablish a health care
9 delivery system able to meet the needs and avoid
10 placement on waiting 1ists.
LL In particular, do you bel-ieve this is the t2 most cost-effective way or setting for these kinds of
1J services and what considerations have been given to
14 the cost differential between hospital detoxification
L5 and non-hospital detoxification?
16 SECRETARYRICHMAN: The non-hospital
L7 programs both detox and rehab are an incredibly t_u effective way to provide service. It is effective and
19 it is good.
20 We get much more servj-ce. We get a better
27 use of the dol-Iars, and we are much more able to track
22 those outcomes. z5 And to be able to look at these you z.t know, having lived through a stage where our pri-mary
25 service was hospitaL-based detox and having looked now 93
L at what a system has become over that inteivening ten
2 years of non-hospital based detoxr of non-hospital
rehab and^ of intensive outpatient services, yo, canrt
4 even begin to compare it is so dramatic. One was
5 runnj-ng 2-, 3-, 4-, $500 a day. The other runs a
6 couple of hundred or less
7 So that the cost-effectiveness is
X incredibly apparent when you are able to look at the
9 differences in those systems. And. I think that people
10 who have received service in a much more
11 community-based, non-hospital resid.ential format
12 understand the significant difference in being'in that
L3 different IeveI of environment ' l-4 . So when you look at how we spend our money
15 and whgre we get the best bang for our dollars, it is t6 certainly non-hospital rehab and. non-hospital detox.
L7 REPRESENTATIVESAYLOR: Chairman, do I
1B still have time? Last question, Madam Secretary.
19 Did the Governor in his budget preparations fook at
20 the 2O03-2004 budget for medical assistance with the
2\ cut of the Act L52 funds and the increased cost that
22 is going to be under medical assistance funds for this
23 current fiscal year coming up?
24 SECRETARYRICHMAN: I thinK when Ihe '' 25 the'Governor and his staff Looked at the DPW budget 94
1 I and the cut to the budget was $1.1 billion, it was
2 where to take these dollars. One of the suggest j-ons
3 was .to take out the entire general ass j-stance medical
4 needy-only area. That woul-d have produced the number
5 of dol-1ars.
6 The Governorrs decision -- and I think
7 that, one, based on that I needed to support was'that
B the number of people affected totally and the impact
9 back to the hospitals by creating 130,000 totally
10 uninsured individuals with no health insurance at all l-1 was a pretty serious impact.
12 These were decisions that had to be made
IJ that I believe are painful at best.' And one of the
L4 reasons I belj-eve they deserve honest debate on how we l-5 spend our doLlars, what is important, what needs to be
16 cut, and how we do it. t7 not having that debater w€ end. up with
18 a situation that the things that we cut maybe we
L9 shouldnrt.have, maybe we should have looked elsewhere.
20 But the bottom line is we still have a 52.4 billion
2! deficit. V[e have serious problems with our school
22 districts. We have serious problems in other manners
23 in which we run our Commonwealth.
24 "And we need to be able to look at a package
25 of change that includes a variety of different ways to OR
1 increase taxes that wiLL hopefully begin to give us
2 some ability to look to the future.
? But there when you begin to take a
I billion dollars out of a department Iike PubLic
a Vfelfarer'your choices become and as a very partisan
6 person as I am and looking at lifer:is that the cuts
7 have to be draconian.
x Anywhere you take dol1.:." within a budget
9 like this, yourre going to affect someone's life. I l_0 think the Governor in coming back and saying do not
LL el-iminate, do not be as other states, that he was not
L2 going to do the same ]evel of pain to a large group of
13 people as many of the other states around'us have done
L4 by eliminating an entire categorical area.
15 But and we did not and the State has not.
16 cut eligibility in a broad way. But again, anywhere
1,'7 you cut yourre going to have a great deal of pain and
1B that we do.
L9 . CHAIRMANARGALL: Representative Kathy
20 Manderino from Philadelphia. Kathy, f suspect if
2L we're not in your district right now. we are tgry
22 cLose.
23 REPRESENTATIVEMANDERINO: You are in my ztl district. "Welcome to the l-94th district. I think
25 Ianguage is very important, and I think it is 96
I important for us to be accurate and truthful.
2 And I want it on the record that this is
3 not a proposed spending plan. These are not suggested
4 budget cuts. This is an active law of tfre
5 Commonwealth o f Pennsylvania f or the f i'sca1 year
6 '2003-2OO4t and there are a 1ot of people that have to
7 take responsibility for this.
I The first one is the Governor and I will
Y get to that because he put the proposal on the table.
10 The second one is each and every person who voted yes
Ll_ for this because they put it on the Governorfs desk.
1,2
1.3 here, but the first thing we have to do is take
74 responsibility for what wefve done. . Because we could
L5 say whatever we want, but our actions speak louder t_6 than our words. t7 And our actions that made this Iaw our 'now 1B . actions.that made this Law are right what people
19 have to judge us by. . Because all the flowery words
20 can come out of my mouth that I want them to, but I
2L took an act or I didnft take an act based,on this
22 budget already and that's my public record.
23 Now having said that, the $f.1 billion cut
24 DPW was asked to make for a $2.4 billion deficit, it
25 is alniost 50 percent of the deficit came out of the 97
.L DPW budget. And we I ve already said' that the DPW
z budget is a people human services budget. It wasnrt
3 just dr:g and alcohol. It wasnrt just mental health.
4 Those are going to spill over into hospital
problems.- We took $28 million out of the hospital
6 uncompensated care l-ine item that we were using. We
7 took money from parents who have disabled children who
X were getting servj-ces for severely disabled people. : 9 Youfre right. A Lot of people were hurt by this
10 DUOgeE.
11 What I want to understand from the
L2 ,Governor t s perspective to the extent that you can give
t< it and I. will ask his budget secretary l-4 1.1 billion came out of DPW? Because, see, me as a
15 Iegr"]u:,o I have the ability to:et different
i 16 priorities.
1,7 , .l Had f been given the chanc€r my priority
1B would not have been for 50 percent of the budget to
19 come out of DPW. I would have looked at some other
20 spendingcategoriesandmaybetaken.a1ittIe,bit
2L bigger chunk out of their hide and left a littl-e bit
22 moie money in DPW.
23 That would have been my priority if I had
24 been alLowed to offer amendments, that would have been
25 my priority if I would have been able to debate the 98
I budget; that would have been my priority when I voted;
2 and that was my priority when I voted. Thatrs why f
3 voted no.
n My question to your Madam Secretary, is to
the extent that you can enl-ighten me on the decision
6 for 1.1 billion to come out of DPV[, f would like to
7 understand that decision.
B ;ECRETARYCRETARY RICRICHMAN: Reprersentative, I'm not
particularly comfortable speaking for someone else and
10 beginning to teIl you what their reasoning behind that
11 1S. '1,2 ' But my understanding is the two largest
L3 departments within State government are Education and
L4 Department of Public WeIfare, by far are the two very l_5 largest departments. 'And 16 within those two Iarge departments, t7 they tend. to look for the major amount of budget
1B neqotiation budget resolution of major budget issues l-9 somewhere within those frameworks. . Obviously, the
20 Governor was and the budget secretary were not
2t going to go to l-ook at education to look for some of
22 these decreases as they are trying to they have a
23 ver,y strong stimulus plan for education which is
24 critically important.and to us too.
25 And, you know, some of the good news is 1 that education and DPW'are going to form a partnership
2 now that helps us both get a better bang for our
doIIar. But that left DPW as one of the primary
4 places they began to look for those additional
a do I Iars .
6 The
7 balance a major budget deficit as you look. across the
I State, I canrt te11 you.
9 I do know that the package that they put
10 together bt looking at educat j-on, economic stimulusr.
l-1 beginning to look at the different ways that the
T2 dlfferent taxes will produce are all part of a package
13 that begins to move Pennsylvania to a different pIace.
I4 Had there been a different level of debate,
L5 maybe we woul-d have gotten to a dif ferent place in the
16 'end. But this is a signed budget. I have to go back.
\7 Steve Rosskopf, my budget director, does point out
18 that white the total amount cut was $1.1 million
19 billion, I'S sorry, the State part of that is it 1LB
20 and there are 118 million Bl-8 nillion.
21 . REPRESENTATIVEMANDERINO: Put a Dercent on
22 that as part of DPW's budget. Do you know?. fs that 6
23 percent, B percent?
24 MR. ROSSKOPF: Of the State budget
25 CHAIRMANARGALL: Pl-ease use the 100
1 mi crophone .
2 SECRETARYRICHMAN: l-0 percent .
MR. ROSSKOPF: It is about 10 percent
.t SECRETARYRICHMAN: It is about l-0 percent
5 of the State budget. ' 6 CHAIRMANARGALL: Representative Rohrer
7 from Berks County.
I REPRESENTATIVEROHRER: Thank your Mr.
9 Chairman. Mad.amSecretary, thank you for your
L0 comments today
1I There is no question about it. I think the
L2 scenario surrounding the budget that. was proposed and
IJ adopted is a Little more unusual than normal. I would l-4 agree with that
15 I think there has been several things that
16 have been somewhat perplexing as we're talking about
L7 this topic here dsr number one, why the Governor chose l-8 to cut so drastically deep on this area.particularly
1-9 in light of the testimony that werve heard.
20 : Another perplexing obviously observation is
2I that is that in the Governorrs second'address where
22 he basically is asking for around a 34 percent tax
23 increase overa11, that I believe during that time nor
24 have I heard since that time that he's asked for any
25 kind of a reinstatement of this funding. Is that l_01
1 where he t s continuing to stand?
z SECRETARYRICHMAN: We11, .at this point in
? time, the budget has passed. So I rm not sure he has
4 -- there is any other alternative other than to live
within the passed budget and hopefully get the tax
6 increase that I believe is right now focused on.the
7 two major initiatives he's painted forward
B But. that doesn't mean that as this body
9 debates the current issues which I believe are most
10 related to the taxes and to education, that part of
1L that debate cannot look at things to either return
L2 additional taxes to appfy, to be able to refund this.
13 I mean we stilL at this point while there is a
14 balanced budget if we are going to be able to return t5 these, there needs to be revenue.
L6 It is important to the Governor that the
L7 packaqe hers put forward for education and economic l_8 stimulus continue to move forward.
IY REPRESENTATIVEROHRER: BUt does the
20 Governor want this line item restored to where it was?
2L Do you know?
22 . SECRETARYRICHMAN: You need to that is
23 question for the Governor.
24 REPRESENTATIVEROHRER : You don't know.
25 Another observation here is that today we I ve been LO2
1 talking basically about treatment for addictions of
2 various types, drug and al-coho1.
It does strike me in light of a
reduction significant reductj-on in this area of
treatment for addictive behavior that the Governor has
chosen to include in his second address the 'l recommendation for implementation of slots at the
B tracks and for gambling which we all know l-eads to
Y addictive behavior and a significant cost associated
10 with that l-1 Do you have anywhere in this budget that
72 you know of if the Governor has included costs
13 sufficj-ent to predict addictions which the numbers are
14 between,L and 10 will need some treatment, 1 and 20
15 will become compulsive
16
L7 that the current rate expectation runs around 60r 0OO td need treatment. Where is the money going to come from
19 for this and what is that number?
20 SECRETARYRICHMAN: The -: I probably
2L before I go too far down this path probably need to go
22 back and check some of the data and information. z5 Having been in Philadelphia and having a
24 large proportion of folks make regular visits to
25 Atlantic City, we did not see a significant number of 103
1 people equiring therapy for addictions and did not
2 see a serious gambling addiction.format here
3 I.don't know I need I really do want
4 to look.up those numbers. I do also believe the
couns e 1 ing services that we have j-n many of our
6 behavioral health can work within the framework if
7 there are additional people
B But the amount that we've seen now with a
9 fair number of Philadelphians who regularly are going
10 to play slot machines in Atlantic City has not been a
11 significant number.
T2 REPRESENTATIVEROHRER: I Know that there
13 was a meeting in the Capitol some weeks ago where
14 there were numerous individuafs who chose. to reveal
L5 their anonymity and express the fact. that they have
L6 been dealing with this issue and in treatment for some
L7 time. Where does that treatment come out of? fs that
1b out of this same line item or where does that come
LY from?
20 SECRETARYRICHMAN: It depends on how it
2t gets diagnosed within the professional-s diagnosing. I
22 would expect it would be diagnosed as a mental illness
ZJ or mental health problem and be treated under mental z4 health. It would be reimbursed within the same
25 framework but not in the same area. So it wouldn't be L04
affected by this
2 REPRESENTATIVE ROHRER: Al-I right . r
3 appreciate you looking into that because it just seems
4 that it does appear to be a little odd to be
introducing a new form of behavior that:is going to
6 need treatment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN ARGALL: Thank you.
B Representatlve Phyllis, Mundyr my neighbor in Luzerne
9 County.
10 RtrPRESENTATIVEMUNDY: ThanK YoUI Mr
11 Chairman. Thank you, Madam Secretary. It is nice to
L2 have you here this afternoon
SECRETARYRICHMAN: Thank you.
1^ l-q REPRESENTATM MUNDY: I couldnrt agree
15 more that'language is important. And my col-Leagues
16 and I were sitting here earfier asking ourselves are l7 we in the twilight zone here, are we in a parallel
18 universe where you claim to care about these things
19 but yet you vote to cut the daylights out of thern?
20 It just seems to me that a lot of the
21, people sitting here today should have been asking
22 themselves if these cuts were the right thing to do
23 before they voted for this budget, before they put it
24 on the Gover'nor t s de s k z3 And now it seems to me that they need to be t-05
l- honest about whether or not they are prepated to vote
2 for a tax increase Eo restore the. cuts. Because if
they are.not, then this is all smoke and mirrors.
4 We know that the Governor is .asking and
5 I understand the Governor's theory, the Governorrs
6 idea we must endure a year of pain in order to broaden
7 our tax base and increase our revenue position and.
B enhance our revenue pos j-tion over the long term.
i 9 Frankly, I support the Governorfs -- for
10 the most part the dovernor's attempt at economic
1L development and education. And I hate to call it
L2 reform but enhancing the educationaL system to improve
13 academic achievement.
L4 But if werre going to talk about the i_5 restorations, could you give me some idea of what the
16 restorations that wetre all sitting here saying are so : t7 important and these things are so terrible for our
1B communities and, you know, those of us -- especially
19 those of you who voted for this. How much of a tax
20 increase are you going to have to support to restore
2L these line items ?
22 SECRETARYRICHMAN: I'm not,sure I can put
23 it in tax increase format. But as youtve heard, the
24 cut to the drug and alcohol system if you total all of
25 the dol-Iars together is a litt1e over a hundred 106
1 milIion. There are another hundred million that
2 affected the hospitals. There is about 35 million
3 that affected HSDF. 'primary 4 Those are some of the key, issues.
There were a.Lso cuts to a variety of smaLler
6 programs.
I The GA conversion is a float conversion
B that I think and I don't know the exact doLLar
Y amount on that. But those are the kind of figures
10 we're looking for. But I can't -:
l1 REPRESENTATIVE MUNDY: S.o we ' re tal king
L2 about
13 or .7 percent increase.
I 14 SECRETARY RICHMAN: You I re outside: my realm
l-J of. expertise. .And 16 REPRESENTATIVEMUNDY: IIm not totally
L7 sure of my number. But I'm looking at q significant:
t8 increase. And there are people sitting here who
19 arenrt even for the current proposal let aLone this .additional 20 money for restoration.
2t Since we didn't get to ask the providers
22 questions, I just want to say that those providers in
23 the room and those people who realIy care about these
24 issues should be prepared to qo back to your State
25 Representative and ask them these crucial questj-ons: 107
I WhV did you vote for this without any discussion, 2 without any public input, without any negotiation?
J And now that you voted for it, how much of
4 a tax increase are you willing to support to restore
J these important programs? These programs that the
6 cuts of which are going to devastate our communities.
7 So I know you're in a very difficult
B positlon. I can only hope that with the help of the
9 legisLature that you and all of us can work together l_0 to restore some of these cuts. But frankly, Ifm not t_1 optimistic.
L2 SECRETARYRICHMAN:. My hope is that indeed
IJ we stay focused on the folks that live within the
L4 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and. making sure that
1q while we not l-eave a child behind, we donrt leave a
L6 mother and father behind either; and that we are able
L7 to do the right thing by our children which makes sure
1B they have the best possible education. .Becaus.e I
19 think if we looked at it, the correlation between kids
20 who don't graduate, kids who dropout, kids who aren't
2I educated who end up in our substance abuse system'is
22 pretty high
23 We have a system here. Part of that system
24 is education. Part of that system. is health care. We
25 need to keep our eye on both. l-0B
1 While there is no way that I could ever say
2 that education is not critically important and growing
our economy is not critically important and that's
4 part of the Governorrs vision and that is where he is
tr . J taking the State. Likewise as the Department of
6 Publ1c Welfare, I have an obligation to make sure
7 CHAIRMANARGALL: Representative McGill
B from Montgomery County.
9 REPRESENTATIVEMcGILL: Thank your Mr.
1_0 Chairman. Thank your Madam Secretary. f have lL listened' with great i-nterest to you this af ternoon.
L2 I've heard you on several other occasions. And I
13 thank you for being here and your frankness. ' 14 I guess it was March 4th that Governor
15 Rendell gave me a copy of his budget which I think I
16 saw you out in the hallway beforehand and said how did
L7 it look like for your department, and. you said it was l-B devas tat ing. ' 19 And at that pointr wo did vote on that
20 budget a week l-ater. That was the budget that the
2L Governor of' the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania gave to
22 the legislature. That's what he gave to us to telI us z5 what he was doing and f voted for that ztr He got it back. And unfortunately, he
25 didn't blue line your department. He just blue lined 109
1_ educa t ion
2 . So today we are here and I think what f
heard -- what frve heard is that from your testimony
4 and the other people that have been testifying before
'r J us today, that you are in agreement that,with the cuts
6 on the behavioral- side; what we are going to have is 't an"increase in drug and alcohol abuse and the problems
I associated with that
V I think that the decrease was by your
10 testimony and by others, that the decrease on the
1l_ behavioral side was because it. appeared to be easy. to
L2 pul-l those funds and not use f ederal f unds with that.
IJ I also heard you mention the term his t4 package severaL times today. So f t11 ask you a simple
15 question. With the Governor I s economj.c stimulus l
Ib package that he presented to us a month later or a
L7 month and a half later, do you believe that your
1B department will still be the unfavored son as it has
19 been so far ? ' 20 SECRETARYRICHMAN: The unfavored daughter?
2L REPRESENTATIVEMcGILL: Unfavored I | 1I
22 take either oner unfavored son or daughter. Because
23 we d.idn't see anything go back. And is 'this the
24 direction that you perceive the Governor taking the
25 commonweal-th with respect to health and human services t_10
in the next three years? I 2 SECRETARYRICHMAN: And again, I as f
J speak for the Governor, f would like you to remember
4 that Irm speaking for the Governor.
5 The Governor proposed a budget that focused
6 on education and economic development. And I think he
7 was he has been very cl-ear in saying that with this
I budget he expects that we will see some drastic
Y improvement in ou{ education system. And I believe he
10 has said on numerous occasions for every doLlar spent
L1 within our education system, we save dollars on the
t2 other end.
13 And he also hopes to stimuLate the economy
L4 in a way that in many cases we cdrr. grow ourselves out
1q of many of the issues that we have to face on a
16 day-to-day basis. And with that growth and with our
1,7 investment in education and with the d.ecrease in.
18 property taxes, Pennsylvania can begin to become a
L9 place that is more thriving.
2o With that, I think from his first budget
2L his anticipation was that there would not have been a
22 p'assed budget, that there wouLd have been debate; that
23 there would have been discussions. There would have
24 been pros and cons. And that as budgets have been
25 presented in other years, the budget as a document 111
within itself is not a perfect document.
2 The budget becomes a better budget for the
J State as we debate the pros and cons of that budget.
.4 And I think that indeed now we I re beginning to have
that debate.
6 We're beginning to express and allow people
7 to express their opinions of how this budget affects
I the people of Pennsylvania. And r ininf as this
9 debate conti-nues and the discussion continues over the
10 next couple months, hopefully we will somehow use
11 what opportunities may present us understanding. that
I2 we do have an active budget.
13 I have a real Live budget I need to live
14 with. This is not a proposed budget. I think it's
]J made clear this is not a theoretical budget. This is
16 tt:t an. unsigned budget. This is a budget that at this
T7 point and. as Secretary of DPW that I am legally bound
1B to live by. And in having to do that, I willlbe
19 working. very hard to find ways not to hurt people.
20 But as proposed right now, this is. the budget I have.
2L The Governor still continues to have a
22 vision of having a vibrant Commonwealth that educates
23 its children, focuses on its chil-dren' reduces
24 propgrty taxes as one of the ways to do that and
25 provides stimul-us enough that the State can continue tt2
I l_ to grow
Z REPRESENTATIVEMcGILL: Do you think that
this stimulus that is going to be created from this
.t will be enough to change what we have heard today in
5 the individuals that have sat in front of us and said
6 that the drug and alcohol problems that they have were '7 not necessarily from the type of education or type of
X upbringi ng ?
9 Do you think that that wiLl the stimulus
10 in the economy will turn around the impact it will-
Ll- have on your department?
L2 SECRETARYRICHMAN: I think the impact on
1? the department is immediate and the- growth that needs t4 to occur in the State takes more time l_5 I think if we want to replace the programs
16 that have been so described today so adequately by aIl
L7 of the providers, there wil] need to be additional
18 dollars other than the dollars proposed by the
L9 Governor.
20 REPRESENTATIVEMcGILL: Do you think we'11
2L ever be able to get back to the point you are right
22 now based on the direction that we are moving with
23 respect to education and economic deve.Iopment?
24 . SECRETARYRICHMAN: Without replacing some
25 of what I lost I think that needs to be replaced. 113
1 .Economic development takes place over a couple of - years. U 2 REPRESENTATIVEMcGILL: I thinK IIm out of
4 time. Thank you.
q CHAIRMANARGALL: Werre all out of time.
6 We have three additional questions. WeI re goir,rg to
7 follow up with you in writing if your staff can
x certainly cooperate with our staff. (: 9 I want to thank your Madam Secretary. I
10 al-so want to thank the members of the committee, the
11 other members that offered testimony today.
1.2 V'le al-L understand and I think the term
13 pain has been used. This is. a painful subject. This
T4 is an emotional subj ect.
l_5 I think I would be remiss if I didnft
l_6 mention on behalf of all of the members of the
l7 committee my thanks for everyone today taking part in
t-8 this process in a, I think, very deliberative way.
19 This hearing could have easily spun out of control
20 given the emotional subjects involved.
2T , And I realIy do respect everyone I s attempt
22 to address the subject in such a way that we can look
23 for solutions in this hearing as well as in the next
24 hearing. Which once again for members of this . 25 .committeer on Thursday in Pittsburgh we wil-l- be LL4
1 dealing with transportation and community and economic
2 development issues. And I understand that your11 be
3 back with us in the Wilkes-Barre area in a few weeks.
4 Once againr thank you to everyone.
,SECRETARYRICHMAN: Thank you very much.
6 (The hearing concluded at 4 p.m. )
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25 115
1 I hereby certify that the proceedings and
2 contained fuIly and accurately in the I evidence 1re
J notes taken by me in the proceedings of the above
4 cause and that this copy is a correct transcript of
the same.
6
7 Sher r i I Notary Public
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10 NotarlalSoal ShorrlA. ReitanqNotarv public 11 .51fifli?tJfl '8-i''iPJliffi illT,oo. Member, T2 PennsylvaniaAssoclation ol Notaries
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