Review Panel Commission d'examen Public Hearing Audience publique
Roberts Bank Terminal 2 Projet du Terminal 2 à Project Roberts Bank
Review Panel Commission d'examen
Ms Jocelyne Beaudet Mme Jocelyne Beaudet Dr. Dave Levy M. Dave Levy Dr. Douw Steyn M. Douw Steyn
Coast Tsawwassen Inn Coast Tsawwassen Inn 1665 56 Street 5133, 56e rue Delta, BC Delta (C.-B.)
May 18, 2019 Le 18 mai 2019
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This publication is the Cette publication est un recorded verbatim compte rendu textuel des transcript and, as such, is délibérations et, en tant recorded and transcribed in que tel, est enregistrée et either of the official transcrite dans l’une ou languages, depending on the l’autre des deux langues languages spoken by the officielles, compte tenu de participant at the public la langue utilitisée par le hearing. participant à l’audience publique.
Printed in Canada Imprimé au Canada
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TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by Teresa Jones 1061 Questions from the Panel 1072
Presentation by Cynthia Bodman 1084
Presentation by 1098 Canada China Business Council Questions from the Panel 1111
Presentation by Armene Belless 1139 Questions from the Panel 1151 Questions from Registered Participants 1161
Presentation by 1165 Greater Vancouver Gateway Council Questions from the Panel 1178
Presentation by Susan World 1205 Questions from the Panel 1228
Closing Statement by 1231 Vancouver Fraser Port Authority
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1 Delta, B.C. / Delta (C.-B.) 2 --- Upon commencing on Saturday, May 18, 2019 3 at 0902 / L'audience débute le 4 samedi 18 mai 2019 à 0902 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, and 6 welcome to the fifth day of public hearing sessions on
7 the Roberts Bank Terminal 2 Project. 8 I would like to call first Mrs. Teresa 9 Jones. 10 Good morning. Welcome. And please go 11 ahead when you’re ready. 12 PRESENTATION 13 MS. T. JONES: Thank you.
14 And I see a note to speak slowly, and 15 that’s one of my worst traits, is my fast speaking, 16 but I will speak slowly. 17 And I really thank you for the 18 opportunity to be here. I’m nervous and I’m
19 passionate. Just a warning. 20 So I’m here to speak to you about the 21 cumulative impacts and what that means to me.
22 Cumulative impacts are the giant elephant in the room 23 Port proponents and governments hope I will ignore, 24 but I cannot. Cannot. 25 Presently there are three Port
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1 operations on two man-made causeways just out here on 2 Roberts Bank. Which each operation, there are all 3 type of pollutants emanating into the air and water. 4 At the current time, there are many, many other 5 developments happening nearby throughout this part of 6 the lower mainland on the water and surrounding lands.
7 Project after project gets built, one 8 bit at a time. Agricultural land is eaten up chunk by 9 chunk, time and time again. 10 When projects are declined, I’ve 11 learned that that is not the end. That’s just an 12 interlude as the developers wait us out and reappear 13 yet again, hoping new governments are in and that,
14 collectively, we passionate people are exhausted from 15 the last battle, and the reasons for the prior 16 rejection get overlooked as there’s a new important 17 reason we absolutely need to build this. 18 Yet the people in charge choose to
19 ignore the obvious cumulative impacts, and they choose 20 to ignore it because they’re there. I see them. 21 Cumulative impacts are troublesome to
22 the environmental agencies and Port and development 23 proponents, so we are to pretend they don’t matter. 24 Logically, this is incomprehensible to just a human 25 being on this planet.
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1 One does not need a science degree to 2 understand the unfairness of this approach. 3 I speak to you from an on-the-ground 4 level, not from a high level. I don’t have charts or 5 graphs. I’m a human that lives and breathes this part 6 of the world, but I’m aware of the world events.
7 My -- this -- on-the-ground level is 8 my everyday personal observations of the 9 moment-to-moment, day-to-day things I hear, I see, I 10 smell and feel from the effects of Port operations. 11 And my perspective comes from my observation as 12 working for the Deltaport container terminal for 13 the -- at the time TSI, which is now GCT.
14 I worked there for 10 years, and I am 15 also a 21-year sailboat owner off of this coast here 16 and a kayaker in the Gulf and San Juan islands and as 17 a general all-around regular person who notices things 18 others may choose not to see.
19 And time after time, it appears they 20 choose not to see what I see because they are blinded 21 by jobs and economic development, and we all need to
22 ask, "Jobs and economic development at what cost?". 23 Nothing else matters, apparently. But 24 in my 58 years, I cannot unsee what I have seen 25 repeatedly and what I observe every day around me,
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1 harsh realities of the impacts on our environments. 2 We collectively cannot live without 3 clean air, water and thriving animal and marine life. 4 And oceans are in trouble the world over. More 5 specifically, it has been proven that the Salish Sea 6 is in trouble right out here, like spitting distance.
7 We may very well have already reached 8 the tipping point where any further development in the 9 Fraser River delta is too great an ecological cost for 10 humans and other life forms we depend on and share 11 this world with. 12 These other life forms do not need us 13 for anything, but we desperately need these other life
14 forms for our very survival. It’s not fun. It’s 15 true. 16 None of us can escape from the damage 17 to the air and water and the shrinking land base that 18 we are supposed to grow food on. Buy local is not a
19 fad. It’s having to be our future, and this project 20 and all of its ramifications is in direct opposition 21 to the rapidly-growing buy local movement.
22 Above and below the waterline –- I 23 know this as a sail boater. I see it and I feel it, 24 deep rumbling noises from ship engines of all types 25 move through these waters. All types. Masses of
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1 them. 2 When on my sail boat, one can hear the 3 deep rumble of ships long before seeing them, hear and 4 feel the vibrations and see the dark pall emanating 5 from the ship stacks. 6 Jobs and economic development are
7 important, too, but only up to a point. When what we 8 are developing is choking off other life forms and 9 possibly our own and our kids’ futures, well, perhaps 10 we should put our great skills into developing a less 11 environmentally harmful way to make an economic engine 12 work. 13 Go for a walk on any terminal, whether
14 it be the ferry terminal, the container or the coal 15 terminal. These are just the most local ones. Fumes 16 are emanating from every type of machinery and coal 17 dust is dispersing all over -- over all life, 18 workforce included. The rumble of ship and machinery
19 noise is constant. 20 The present three terminals are sited 21 on man-made islands built smack in what was a very
22 rich margin and bird migration area. While working, 23 for the container port operator at Roberts Bank, I 24 lived and breathed the fumes and noise. And I sat in 25 an air filtered office, so I didn’t have to be out on
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1 the terminal because when you were, it’s very harsh on 2 your nose, eyes, and ears. 3 Fumes are emanating from every type of 4 machinery –- oh, I think I already said that. 5 The present -- sorry. While working 6 for the container port at Roberts Bank –- sorry; I
7 apologize. I’m nervous. 8 I lived and breathed the fumes and 9 noise. I saw the ship stack smoke settle over the 10 workers and bird populations repeatedly. I walked the 11 dyke by the park alongside those parked trains, 12 engines idling, the air thick with fumes, to the point 13 I had to stop going there. I had to stay inside so I
14 could breathe. 15 And I’m not alone. Common sense told 16 me -- I’m not a scientist -- that if it was hard for 17 me to take the fumes, when the sandpipers and other 18 hundreds of birds in the area would be getting a far
19 more damaging effect on their tiny lungs. 20 Endless lines of container trucks 21 right next to the bay, often with blue and black smoke
22 pouring from their exhaust pipes day in, day out. The 23 haze was often very thick. 24 And I lived it. I saw it. I breathed 25 it. I smelled it. I don’t have a chart or graph.
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1 The environmental damage caused by 2 building the causeways has been shown to have had a 3 very negative impact on the young salmon migrating to 4 sea. This has been documented many times by 5 scientists studying the area in question for T2. 6 We are presently experiencing a huge
7 loss of resident orcas, and their lack of Chinook and 8 other salmon species must be considered a likely 9 result of having such structures obstructing the 10 marine life cycles. 11 The cumulative impacts of all the 12 different types of commercial vessels and recreational 13 boaters throughout the Salish Sea logically must also
14 be a contributing factor to the decline of orcas. 15 The constant drumming of the vessel 16 engines from the ships coming to and from the harbour 17 is incredibly noisy and disturbing above the water, so 18 for the marine life that use sonar and calls to locate
19 food and each other, common sense tells me it must be 20 very negatively impactful, even without a chart or 21 graph.
22 You know, I just know that, but I 23 don’t have proof. But I know. I know. I know that. 24 How do I know that? Because I feel 25 stuff and I see it. And I see what people don’t like
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1 to see. And I point it out and I get shut down, but. 2 So my personal experience over many 3 years has shown me that the Vancouver Fraser Port 4 Authority places little value on the environment when 5 making these proposals to go forward with building 6 more infrastructure. It appears to me that they are
7 here simply to promote expansion for the development 8 industry while using the excuse of under capacity. 9 Others in these hearings will or have 10 already discussed the lack –- addressed the lack of a 11 business case in better detail, but I always know to 12 follow the money. There are a lot of jobs in 13 developing infrastructure and they are short term and
14 one must always the cumulative impact cost to all life 15 forms. 16 The adage "just because you can, 17 should you?" applies here very much. Just because you 18 can, should you, you know?
19 There is already sufficient port space 20 on the west coast with efficiencies being made all the 21 time. To keep building and building is only going to
22 kill off more of the marine life that we here and the 23 world depend on for our lives. 24 As smart human animals, it is our duty 25 to recognize when enough is enough. We must stop
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1 continually planning for ever-expanding port 2 infrastructure. 3 I understand the cruise ship terminal 4 is now being promoted -– a cruise ship terminal is now 5 being promoted to possibly site it in this 6 geographical area. Cruise ships are being built so
7 grotesquely enormous that they don’t fit under the 8 First Narrows Bridge? Enough. Like enough. Stop 9 bullying us and just stop. It's -- wow. 10 We humans have the gift of reason and 11 it’s time we learn how to use good judgment and to 12 stop kicking the environmental can down the road. To 13 not take the cumulative impacts of Deltaport container
14 terminal, the coal terminal, the ferry terminal, the 15 South Fraser Perimeter Road, the off-dock facilities, 16 the TFN housing and mall expansion, the southlands 17 development on the other side of the peninsula is 18 really incomprehensible to me.
19 Don’t forget the massive development 20 just down the way in northwestern Ladner beside the 21 tunnel. Look at the development in and around the
22 YVR. 23 Take a drive around here. That is 24 also the same area as Roberts Bank geologically 25 speaking, a very important part of the migratory
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1 flyway and Fraser River delta. 2 Sorry, but no more room for the hungry 3 birds and marine life because, well, jobs, jobs. 4 Great, great. 5 To speak about the number of ships 6 that a particular part of the expansion will add
7 without showing the cumulative number of existing 8 ships and marine traffic of all types -- there’s so 9 much out there. 10 Ask a sailboater. We putter and 11 putter with the sail up and we have to dodge at our 12 three knots. We have to dodge ship after ship, vessel 13 after vessel of all types.
14 So the -- so I’ll say that again, 15 sorry, because I got off track. 16 To speak about the number of ships 17 that a particular part of expansion will add without 18 showing the cumulative number of existing ships and
19 marine traffic of all types is clearly done to 20 obfuscate and hide the reality, also known as 21 gaslighting us, because we’re being gaslit. You
22 cannot look at a project in isolation. That doesn’t 23 make any sense. 24 Bulk carriers, container carriers, 25 tugs with tows everywhere, fishing vessels,
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1 recreational boats, small and large, whale-watching 2 boats, airplanes in the inner harbour, the total 3 number plus a new terminal capacity are what should be 4 front -– the total number of ships plus the new 5 terminal capacity expectations are what should be 6 front and centre number. That’s the number.
7 To sort of borrow and mangle a phrase 8 from President Clinton, "It’s not just the economy, 9 stupid". 10 The cumulative impacts of industry are 11 affecting all of us here and now. If you dismiss this 12 fact, then you are being wilfully blind. 13 Each and every one of us has a
14 responsibility to each other and to our very beautiful 15 planet that we have the power to destroy. Current 16 events here and internationally have shown us not to 17 be practising this as a rule. 18 Our greed and willful blindness must
19 stop now. No more waiting around for somewhere else 20 to fix the problems created by our failure to act as 21 we keep over-developing our way out of a problem of
22 too much development. 23 It’s up to us to be the change we want 24 to see. It starts right here and it starts right now. 25 Your children and grandchildren will consider you
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1 heroes. 2 The time is now to face the elephant 3 in the room that is hanging over our heads. Who are 4 you trying to fool? 5 And just I was going to say and no to 6 Terminal 2 is the right decision.
7 And I just want to say at the end is, 8 yesterday, I was able to be here and it came up with 9 the price of externalities, which is that -- it’s a 10 word that, you know, I understand it from a science 11 point of view. It’s a way to encapsulate something. 12 And the back and forth was to do with, 13 well, there’s never been studies done or it’s so hard
14 to do, you know. But I’m just a regular human being 15 on this planet and I know the cost. I know the cost 16 of the externalities, and they’re priceless. 17 Thank you. Obviously, a lot to get 18 off my chest and I really appreciate being able to do
19 this. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 21 for your passionate presentation. We appreciate it.
22 We have questions for you, and I’ll 23 start with Dr. Levy, please. 24 MEMBER LEVY: Thank you very much, 25 Mrs. Jones. And rest assured that this is a friendly
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1 environment. 2 MS. T. JONES: Thank you. 3 MEMBER LEVY: We’re here to learn from 4 each other, and you’ve certainly provided us with some 5 very good information. 6 You started out talking about some of
7 the impacts unique to Tsawwassen and Delta, some of 8 the urban sprawl, the industrialization, the push for 9 economic development and job creation. And it made me 10 think about other coastal areas in the GVRD or even a 11 little bit further up and down the coast. 12 Many developments occur; pulp mills, 13 ship traffic, airports, what have you.
14 What I’d like to ask you is, are these 15 pressures unique to Tsawwassen and Delta, or are they 16 symptomatic of a bigger problem that we’re engaged 17 with in society? 18 MS. T. JONES: I would -- my citizen
19 of the world view is it's what you just said. It’s 20 just -- it's happening everywhere, and that’s why I am 21 –- obviously my frustration level is so high, is
22 because I keep seeing it happening everywhere, and why 23 are we -- why do we keep on doing this. 24 I always thought Canada did things 25 better than elsewhere, and apparently we don’t.
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1 MEMBER LEVY: Right. 2 MS. T. JONES: Like it appears by 3 actions that we don’t because, you know, like you say, 4 the development. You know, you go to any area around, 5 say, just this Fraser River delta area, and the -- 6 what’s the riparian? People say, "What's that?"
7 It’s a very important area for the 8 survival of things that we depend on for our survival. 9 And you know, I won't go into -- I know you are well 10 aware of what that means. 11 So anyway, yeah, it’s -- I see it 12 everywhere, and it just needs to stop. 13 MEMBER LEVY: Right. I’m sure you’ve
14 heard of the phrase, ”Think globally, act locally”. 15 MS. T. JONES: Absolutely. Live it, 16 breathe it. 17 MEMBER LEVY: So as -- your personal 18 view is, you would do both of those at the same time?
19 MS. T. JONES: I -– I walk and live my 20 values. I’m the person –- when I was at my job, I was 21 the person that would sort of point things out because
22 people wanted to be -– the shoulder shrugs were -- 23 like people were like, ”Yeah, Teresa, but”. Yeah, 24 but. Yeah, but. 25 And I'm like -- I was the one that,
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1 you know, you call me the Debbie Downer because it's 2 like, yeah, okay, we’re doing this, but we’ve got to 3 watch that, you know. 4 You just hear people say, "Well, all 5 these starlings are all on our equipment. We've got 6 to do something about -- get rid of those birds".
7 And I'm like, "You just put this 8 terminal in the middle of a migratory flyway, you got 9 birds, so you deal with it. Wear better shoes or 10 something". 11 You know, there was mess from a bird. 12 It's just -- it was -- sorry. I’m heading off, but. 13 MEMBER LEVY: Not at all. I
14 appreciate your comments. 15 Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dr. Steyn? 17 MEMBER STEYN: Thank you, Ms. Jones, 18 for your passion and presentation.
19 So you’ve told us that you sail and 20 walk. 21 MS. T. JONES: Yeah.
22 MEMBER STEYN: And therefore, 23 personally you've experienced the environment. 24 You've also mentioned briefly some of 25 the effects you see on this environment. Could you
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1 summarize for us, just briefly, some of your personal 2 perceptions of degraded environment that directly 3 affect you? 4 You’ve spoken about air quality, water 5 quality, biodiversity loss, and shrinking land base. 6 Any one of those would be --
7 MS. T. JONES: Yeah, it's -- well, for 8 instance, too, while things are being developed, 9 there's -- you know, we live on a peninsula. There’s 10 a lot of wind here that, you know, the -- and there’s 11 a lot of environmental effects of things blowing all 12 over, including coal dust, which I know there was that 13 report about the bird poop in about 2002 that the Port
14 said all the stuff landing on homes in Tsawwassen is 15 not coal. 16 But whenever there is -- you know, 17 third berth was something I experienced personally as 18 it was being developed, the massive amount of dust and
19 things flying around the air and landing on water. 20 When I’m out sailing or kayaking or 21 just when I’m out, you can’t miss it. The pall that
22 surrounds the Port and then surrounds Vancouver as 23 well, and all that pall, I know that –- I live in 24 Tsawwassen, I’m so lucky, because it gets blown inland 25 most of the time except on the very still days, of
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1 which there are many still days on that water, believe 2 it or not. 3 We notice the wind because it’s a big 4 deal and it stops operations, but the calmness. And 5 that’s 24/7. 6 And I had a choice to be inside a
7 building, and I found I needed to be because if you 8 were out on the dock for any length of time -- and I 9 saw all the workforce and the people I worked with. 10 You don’t want to be out there. 11 You wouldn’t want to bring your kids 12 to work day there for more than a few hours because, 13 you know, it’s dirty, you know. When you’re seeing
14 and living it, it’s dirty. You’re covered in it. 15 MEMBER STEYN: Thank you. 16 So do you live in this region? 17 MS. T. JONES: I do. I used to live 18 across the street. Now I live three blocks that way.
19 MEMBER STEYN: So now you’ve spoken 20 about the air pollution in the workplace. And I think 21 we must accept that air pollution in the workplace is
22 treated rather differently than air pollution in the 23 community. 24 MS. T. JONES: Yeah. 25 MEMBER STEYN: Do you sense degraded
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1 air quality in your community where you live? 2 MS. T. JONES: I –- I – yes, I do. 3 There’s constant -– because we're so flat, you can see 4 for miles the things that are happening here. You can 5 see –- you can see Deltaport from Coquitlam. 6 You can see the lights. You can see
7 the quality of the night, like between the farming 8 operations and the -- you know, the greenhouses and 9 the Port and the mall. 10 Like specifically to the air, you 11 know, there's -- it can’t help but not be being here, 12 but mostly it gets blown away on most days. But some 13 days it can be thick. And I don’t know exactly what's
14 producing the thickness. 15 But also, too whenever things are 16 being built, there’s a wind storm. And unless things 17 are watered down -- like it’s all over Tsawwassen. 18 Like you’re living and breathing this dust storm that
19 comes, sand storm, dirt storm from the piles of dirt 20 that gets laid wherever the recent project is. And it 21 happens over and over.
22 You just –- you should just see. 23 You’re driving home and you go, "Oh, my God. What’s 24 going on in Tsawwassen?" 25 And then it’s like, oh, right. The
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1 northwest wind came up, so that came and did that 2 pile. Oh, the southeaster is coming up so that’s 3 blowing that stuff over. 4 And you are impacted. It’s on your 5 windows, on your cars, you know. Anyway. 6 MEMBER STEYN: Thank you very much.
7 MS. T. JONES: I could go on. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: I’m interested in 9 the outdoor activities that you were talking about. 10 And there seems to be a degradation in the quality of 11 these activities. 12 You mentioned that you’ve stopped 13 going on the dyke. That was the dyke on Brunswick
14 Point? 15 MS. T. JONES: Pardon me? 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that the dyke on 17 Brunswick Point? 18 MS. T. JONES: I tend -- I tend to
19 stay on the south side of the tracks just ’cause -- 20 otherwise, I have to go all the way to -- 'cause I 21 live here. I’ve lived here 22 years now.
22 I’m always sad when I’m over there, so 23 I tend to just not go there. I try and go where 24 there’s not these things. 25 So I don’t use those dykes
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1 specifically because it’s so industrial, and I stay on 2 the softer side of nature. And I’m out –- like I -- 3 I’m out all the time in nature. I am not detached 4 from nature. 5 I see people around me very detached 6 from nature, and I don’t know where the disconnect has
7 come from that we are somehow separate from the 8 migratory flyway birds and the marine animals and the 9 orcas. 10 We’re all the same and -- except they 11 have no use for us. We have a use for them. you know. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you use any parks 13 in Tsawwassen near the beach?
14 MS. T. JONES: Oh, I’m -- yeah. 15 The -- oh. 16 I’m always out at Boundary Bay. Like 17 I just live and breathe -- I’m there pretty much every 18 day. The other dykes that go -- I used to live
19 closer. 20 You know, so I just recently, fairly 21 recently moved, so I’m kind of more on the southern
22 side of -– southeastern and western side of 23 Tsawwassen, whereas before I used to be more around 24 the -- you know, just like really, I lived across the 25 street at the pillars. And so I sort of centered
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1 more this side. 2 I’m a runner. I’ve run for 30 years 3 this year, yeah. And so I’m outside all the time. 4 I was outside long before the sun 5 comes up, and the glow is -- it’s actually – it hurts 6 your heart. I happen to see – I notice things, and
7 other people say, ”Oh, I’ve never noticed that”. And 8 it’s right there in front of our eyes. 9 And they see it when I point it out. 10 They go, ”Right”, shrug. 11 And I’m like, well, we can’t keep 12 shrugging. We have to act. And that sometimes means 13 we can’t do things.
14 It’s just the way nature is, in my 15 view. Anyway -– and I'm not a scientist. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you've been 17 doing -- you’re a sailboat owner, you say, for 21 18 years.
19 MS. T. JONES: Yeah. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: You refer in your 21 presentation more in terms of noise and vibration.
22 MS. T. JONES: Yeah. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about safety. 24 safety when you’re on the water? Are you talking 25 that -- you know, that the boats are coming from
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1 everywhere. 2 MS. T. JONES: Oh, it’s -- oh, it's 3 dangerous. You’ve got to know what you’re doing. 4 When there’s a tug and a tow, you 5 know, like it’s -- it’s a hard world. And I will just 6 actually use -- we just sold our boat. But our last
7 trip across from the Active Pass, which is just the 8 opposite side of -- you know, coming over, and we 9 moored in Point Roberts. 10 You’re coming out of Active Pass, and 11 oh, my goodness, there are humpback whales right 12 there. And we’re going three knots, and -- we were 13 powering because there was no wind. We had to slow
14 down and stop. 15 But not the ferries. Not the ships. 16 And it took 35 minutes for that -- I don’t know how 17 many because I was just so oh, my God. We’re seeing 18 this. We’re here. It’s now.
19 But it was like we noticed, but others 20 didn’t. And if you’re a power boater, you tend to 21 miss everything because you’re just getting to your
22 destination. 23 When you’re a sailboater, it’s the 24 journey, you know. And so you’re just -- it’s a shock 25 to see ferries.
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1 They’ve got time schedules. Ships 2 have time schedules, you know. Safety -- you had to 3 really be aware and know the rules of the road, you 4 know, but not everyone does, you know. But we were 5 very safety conscious. 6 Wear a life jacket. Some people –-
7 most fishermen never wear a life jacket because they 8 think it’s silly, but it’s not. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 MS. T. JONES: Anyway. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: I’d like to ask any 12 participant -- registered participants that have 13 questions for the presenter.
14 Vancouver Fraser Port Authority? 15 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Madam Chair. 16 No, we don’t have any questions for Mrs. Jones. 17 Just want to say thank you very much 18 for your passion and for taking the time on a
19 beautiful long weekend to come and be here with us and 20 share your thoughts. 21 MS. T. JONES: Thanks. It’s very
22 important to be here, so how could I not? 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 24 MS. T. JONES: Thank you very much. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: I’d like to call now
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1 Mrs. Cynthia Bodman. 2 --- Pause 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, and 4 welcome. 5 PRESENTATION 6 MS. BODMAN: Good morning. I’m sorry.
7 Thank you in advance for your 8 patience. I have spasmodic dysphonia, so if at any 9 time you cannot understand me, if you could please let 10 me know and I’ll try to adjust. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we have a 12 system here that you can whisper in the microphone. 13 MS. BODMAN: Thank you. Thank you.
14 I’m also recovering from an injury, so 15 my stamina and my thought process are not the way I 16 would like them to be today, so I appreciate your 17 patience on that account as well. 18 I’m also an introvert, so being here
19 to present is a very -– a very uncomfortable thing for 20 me. It’s frightening, to be honest. 21 So thank you for your patience for all
22 of these things. 23 I also recognize in Canada that we 24 have different belief systems, so I hope it will not 25 be an offence if I, as a Christian, just say a prayer
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1 to open this. 2 Would that offend anyone? Thank you. 3 Dear Heavenly Father, thank you so 4 much for creating and sustaining our world. I believe 5 that you love us very, very deeply, to create and 6 sustain such a world filled with wonder and to send
7 your son to teach us how to live with dignity and 8 caring toward one another and to honour you in all 9 that we do. 10 I invite your gentle holy spirit to 11 permeate these proceedings with peace and with clarity 12 and with grace. I trust in your promise that you’ve 13 not given us a spirit of fear, but of love and of
14 power and of sound mind. 15 Please bless -- bless these 16 proceedings, both the process and the outcome. In 17 Jesus’ name, amen. 18 I’m also a former English teacher, so
19 poetry and literature are dear to my heart, and 20 therefore, this is something very intimate that I’d 21 like to share with you. It’s called ”Nature is My
22 Hero” or my heroine. “Nature is my heroine.” She has 23 provided for me every day of my life. Sun and rain 24 and soil and seeds for food. The perfect atmosphere 25 to breathe and sustain life. Beauty and variety to
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1 fill our hearts with joy. Her voice is even softer 2 than my own. She is silent, and she cannot defend 3 herself. She has withstood human assault for 200 4 years. She grows weak and weary. 5 Nature, our caretaker, stands 6 silently, speechless, as she is being poisoned.
7 Having given us the power to govern her, she chooses 8 to stand helpless, allowing herself to become our 9 victim or one nurtured by her actions and decisions. 10 The choice is ours. If we make her a victim, we 11 become victims ourselves, for we depend upon her for 12 life. Please do what you can to honour her. She 13 gives so freely to us.
14 Let not money stand in the way of 15 honouring her. I weep for her distress. Please come 16 to her aid. 17 I hesitate to present the rest because 18 you’ve heard so much, so many facts. It must be so
19 difficult for you to listen to so many points of view. 20 I very, very much appreciate your time and 21 consideration to listen to mine.
22 I would appreciate knowing if I 23 offer too much because the mind can be very tired 24 after listening to so many facts and points of view. 25 I’ve lived in Tsawwassen for 34 years,
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1 while teaching and counselling in our local school 2 district and raising my two children. In February of 3 2006, across the street from my home in Beach Grove, I 4 saw waves breaking over the seawall, and I ran 5 downstairs and opened my front door, and the water, 6 the ocean water, was coming in through my door, and I
7 quickly left the house because it was rising, to cover 8 the tires of my car in the carport, and I came back 9 and there was a duct tape cross across across my door. 10 It was considered a state of emergency. Later I 11 learned that UBC was conducting a study to support 12 decision-making and policy development for flood 13 management for the Corporation of Delta, and I have a
14 document here. 15 Since that time with the wind and the 16 tide, the wind is strong and the tides are high, I am 17 nervous. I understand that sea levels are rising due 18 to climate chaos. I love Tsawwassen and I did not
19 wish to move. 20 In October 2015 I heard Dr. Jeffrey 21 Sachs speak at UBC during UBC’s centennial. Dr.
22 Sachs is a special advisor to the U.N. 23 secretary-general on the millennium development goals. 24 He spoke as a guest of the Lind Initiative, an annual 25 dialogue, a series created to address the most urgent
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1 issues of our time. And I have a site. His doc can 2 be viewed on that site. 3 I learned about the three or the -- 4 his sustainable development goal academic courses 5 offered through the U.N.’s sustainable development 6 goals solutions network, and I registered for two of
7 these. One was climate change science and 8 negotiations, and the second was the age of 9 sustainable development. 10 I have a text book from his course 11 here, and it is considered one of the most important 12 books in current circulation. And the forward is by 13 Ban Ki-Moon who was the U.N. secretary-general at the
14 time. 15 I attended the Port’s preliminary 16 environmental mitigation concepts, meeting September 17 25th in 2014, and I at this time -- at that meeting I 18 learned from one of the participants of a young child
19 who was unable to play because of coal dust, and 20 covered in coal dust. I had also noticed myself a 21 film on my new deck, and I have found it hard to
22 breathe in the summer months, and I have to come 23 indoors instead because of the air quality. The air 24 quality in my community is changing. Pesticide use is 25 also needed to combat invasive species on the
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1 shoreline in front of my home. I wondered how it 2 would affect our neighbours and the wildlife feeding 3 there. 4 While driving on the Arthur Drive 5 overpass to Ladner, I see the coal trains passing 6 underneath. Also, the trucks propelled by diesel
7 fuel. The railway tracks run immediately on either 8 side of vegetable-producing farmland. 9 I wish I could have stopped the car to 10 take a photo for you, so you could see the immediate 11 proximity of the farmland to the road and railway, but 12 there’s nowhere to pull over and to do so. 13 The best article I can offer you is
14 the following, and it is a request by physicians, 209 15 of them, to –- for a comprehensive health impact 16 assessment. This was for the Gateway Pacific 17 Terminal, which I believe is in close proximity to us, 18 has relevance to our current discussion. Thank you.
19 I would appreciate you looking at the 20 concerns of diesel particulate matter, page 5, 21 questions 1 through 16. Coal dust, page 7 and
22 following, questions 1 to 14. Noise pollution, 23 questions 9 and following and page -- pardon me, page 24 9 and following, questions 1 to 19. And also, I’m not 25 sure if this would be relevant, delays in medical
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1 services, page 12, questions 1 and 19 and following. 2 I’m concerned about the effects on the produce that is 3 growing on the farmland. I’m concerned about the air 4 quality in our neighbourhood. 5 The following is something that came 6 to me as I was driving and observing the trains,
7 watching them go to and fro to the coal port, and it 8 brought to mind, and excuse me for this, but it 9 brought to mind a horrific image. I thought of the 10 trains that were transporting unsuspecting men, women, 11 and children to and from the gas chambers in World War 12 II. 13 It then occurred to me that these
14 trains to the Deltaport were not transporting people 15 to gas chambers, but could it be that with their 16 transportation of coal, which both en route and upon 17 combustion, would potentially bring invisible 18 poisonous gases to us, to pollute our atmosphere,
19 locally and globally, and contribute to global 20 warming. 21 This gas chamber was portable, on the
22 move, being brought to us, as well as to the 23 world-wide community, since atmospheric and ocean 24 currents defy national boundaries. 25 I hesitate to bring up the following
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1 because, again, I’m a counsellor and a teacher. I 2 believe in gentleness. But the thought occurred to 3 me -- phone ringing -- the thought occurred to me 4 that, with precedents being set around the world 5 right now in terms of environmental concerns, I 6 wondered if, not perhaps now, and I’m not a lawyer
7 and I don’t know what the state of environmental 8 litigation is at present, but I wondered if those 9 responsible for providing the means to poison our 10 atmosphere and warm our seas, could be considered 11 guilty of a crime against humanity too, as were those 12 responsible for implementing and overseeing the World 13 War II gas chambers.
14 One definition of crime states: “An 15 activity or action that, although not illegal, is 16 considered evil, shameful, and wrong; a grave offence, 17 especially against morality.” 18 I looked up the constituents of crime
19 through Queen’s University, and I’m sorry, I’m not 20 that well-organized, but it seems to me that mens rea, 21 actus reus, and causation are all present in the
22 actions of coal transport. If the state and validity 23 of climate change science, if this is disrupting our 24 world locally and abroad, then why would it not be 25 considered a crime against humanity and the extinction
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1 of the many species that Ms. McKenna references below? 2 This is -- oh, I’m so sorry. In her address in May -- 3 thank you -- and it's in the National Observer and CBC 4 report, and she says the extinction threat calls for a 5 Paris moment for nature -- a Paris agreement moment 6 for nature after an alarming U.N. commission report
7 found nature declining at rates unprecedented in human 8 history, with up to a million species at risk of 9 extinction within decades. 10 So if our environmental and climate 11 change minister recognizes the dire straits, I’m 12 praying and hoping that you will act in agreement with 13 her, and recognize the urgency with which she speaks.
14 I will finish. I have worked with 15 children, and before receiving my master’s in 16 psychology, we had to adhere to the Hippocratic Oath, 17 ”Above all, to do no harm,” and as I was looking 18 forward to the opportunity of speaking today, I
19 reviewed the Canadian Psychological Association’s code 20 of ethics, which I’ve brought with me. 21 And as a psychologist, we have a legal
22 duty to warn if we know a person is in danger, and if 23 we do not perform this duty, and the person is harmed, 24 the psychologist is held legally responsible for the 25 death or injury of the client. The most serious
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1 responsibility that we faced as high school 2 counsellors was conducting risk assessments pertaining 3 to suicide or homicide. I see the situation that we 4 face today as equally urgent. Fossil fuels are 5 harming ourselves and others. 6 I feel that I’m in a position of grave
7 responsibility, with a duty to warn. 8 I’ve learned during two subsequent 9 graduate level courses, the dangers that we face if we 10 oppose sustainable efforts, which are available to us 11 to create clean energy. 12 Pardon me. 13 I have references that refer to the
14 green economy is the future, says the UN chief in 15 Beijing, urging climate solutions that strengthen 16 economies while protecting the environment. 17 The United Kingdom is the first 18 country to declare a climate emergency. We might just
19 be at a tipping point on how seriously the world 20 treats climate change. Thank you. 21 Permafrost collapse is accelerating
22 carbon release. Disarming case to act right now on 23 climate change by Greta Thunberg, her TED talk, a 24 young Swedish girl. I’m sorry, this organization is a 25 problem for me right now. Dr. Sachs, who I respect so
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1 highly, he -- I do have an article here which I have 2 to share with you. He does say that it’s possible to 3 have zero emission energy and food supplied by the 4 middle of the century. I will find that article for 5 you. 6 Our own aquarium is doing such fine
7 research, and I’m not sure if you’ve referred to their 8 scientific studies locally, but I highly recommend 9 them to you as being a great support in your work. 10 Thank you. 11 I also have additional resources which 12 might be of help and benefit, and that is -- these 13 were from my courses from the Sustainable Development
14 Academy. These were from a reading list and they’re 15 from the German Advisory Council on global change. 16 They have flagship reports and fact 17 sheets and policy statements, and I believe that 18 they’re on the forefront of leading sustainability,
19 and I know there are a number of them. They’re so 20 worthy of your consideration. I truly wanted to share 21 them with you and they pertain -- for instance,
22 sustainable use of our oceans, and they deal with 23 marine shipping as well. So they offer very, very 24 useful suggestions to our provincial and federal 25 governments and to yourselves in making decisions.
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1 I just want to thank you so much for 2 your kindness and your patience in listening to me 3 today. Thank you for the efforts. I recognize the 4 difficulties when so much money has been invested by 5 the Port and its stakeholders. 6 Just in closing, I would like to share
7 with you that I think there have been times in history 8 when very, very difficult decisions have had to be 9 made, when one has to look at the investments that 10 have been made, and the hopes that one has to proceed 11 from whatever motivation we might have, and we all 12 have different motives, some which we can be very 13 proud of and some which, in retrospect, maybe didn’t
14 serve us as well. 15 As a psychologist I speak of we 16 sometimes have the need for status, or sometimes we’re 17 afraid to act in the way that reflects our deepest 18 integrity.
19 The last thing I wanted to share, it’s 20 called ”Seven Men,” and there is also a book on women, 21 a subsequent book on women and the secret of their
22 greatness. William Wilberforce, as you probably all 23 know, he worked so hard to abolish the slave trade in 24 England, even though economically it was felt like it 25 would be very hard on the English economy, and I just
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1 feel we might be in a similar situation today, where 2 you put so much effort into your work. But I really, 3 really think, when things are at stake here, that are 4 very vital for us to consider. Thank you so much for 5 your consideration today. Thank you as well for your 6 help. Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, 8 Mrs. Bodman. I have a few questions for you. I think 9 what I found very interesting was the visual effects 10 that you consider important for you, when you go 11 around or live in the community here. You’ve 12 presented a very vivid picture of how it affects you. 13 Usually we look at visual effects in
14 our work, but it is usually in terms of a building in 15 front of us, or in this case, we’ve looked at the 16 light pollution at night, if it’s going to increase 17 or not, and I think you brought a new element in the 18 sense that, when you live here, you see trucks,
19 trains -- it’s not –- the visual effect should not 20 restrict the analysis only to the cranes or new 21 buildings that we’re going to have if this project
22 goes ahead. 23 And I’d like to know for you how -- 24 because you've lived here 34 years, so I’d like to 25 know a little bit about how the scenery has changed
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1 for you over the years. 2 MS. BODMAN: In terms of the Port, 3 it’s a constant reminder of -- it’s difficult. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you live by the 5 shore? 6 MS. BODMAN: I live by the Beach Grove
7 shore, so it’s the opposite shore near Boundary Bay. 8 But when I walk along the dyke, I can see, and also 9 when I walk along Beach Grove Road. At Fred Gingell 10 Park, I can see by the ferry terminal, yes. So it -- 11 it -- I don't think industry is ever lovely to look 12 at, so I would say that it’s unpleasant, yeah. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your
14 presentation and for coming to speak to us. With the 15 documents that you have tabled, you will please work 16 with the staff as to how we’re are going to present 17 this as exhibits, because we have to put anything that 18 we should use on the registry. You must have heard
19 about that. 20 MS. BODMAN: Yes. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the secretariat
22 will explain to you how we’re going to function with 23 the exhibits from your presentation. 24 MS. BODMAN: Thank you so much. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: You’re most welcome.
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1 Thank you. 2 MS. BODMAN: Thank you. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: We’ll take a break 4 up to 10:30, please. 5 --- Upon recessing at 1006 / Suspension à 1006 6 --- Upon resuming at 1031 / Reprise à 1031
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: I’d like to call Mr. 8 James Moore of the Canada China Business Council, 9 please. 10 Good day, and welcome. And you can 11 start when you’re ready. 12 PRESENTATION 13 HON. JAMES MOORE: Great. Thank you
14 very much. 15 First, I wanted to start off by saying 16 thank you, by the way, to your staff. We had a little 17 bit of a SNAFU on my side about having a presenter 18 here from the CCBC to be part of this, and your staff
19 was incredibly accommodating and professional and I 20 enormously appreciate that. 21 And thank you as well for being here
22 and having such an open format so that people can come 23 and raise their issues, concerns, aspirations and 24 perspectives on what’s obviously an enormously 25 important project, not just for the region where we
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1 sit but for, of course, the entirety of the lower 2 mainland, British Columbia, and indeed, all of Canada. 3 This is a project of pan-Canadian consequence and 4 importance, so this is an important conversation. 5 Just a little bit I think, perhaps, of 6 my background. I’m not going to go on at great length
7 in my presentation here, but just some of my 8 background prior to being here. 9 I was a Member of Parliament for 15 10 years, elected in the year 2000, retired from politics 11 at the old age of 39 in 2015 after five terms and 15 12 years in Parliament. But what’s, I suppose, relevant 13 for, I suppose, a bit of credentialing for the purpose
14 of the presentation is that in my time in public life, 15 I served three terms in government, including eight 16 years in Cabinet, including time as Canada’s Minister 17 of Industry and Minister for the Asia Pacific Gateway. 18 I think as everybody in the room knows
19 well that this project is not a new concept or a new 20 discussion but has been, I suppose, more than a 21 decades-long project in terms of concept design,
22 consultation and consideration. 23 In my time in government, I was part 24 of a group of four Ministers along with the Prime 25 Minister who led the negotiations for Canada’s
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1 participation in the Trans-Pacific Partnership and 2 also the Canada-Korea Free Trade Agreement, which I 3 was honoured to be part of the signing ceremony in 4 Seoul. 5 And the importance of this project in 6 terms of a continuum of where Canada is going -- you
7 know, we often forget about the history in the context 8 of these kinds of projects. 9 You know, you can get very granular in 10 the specifics of projects, but I think perhaps in a 11 different way, the way in which the previous presenter 12 was talking about, the grander context of this project 13 from her perspective. There’s also grander contexts,
14 you know, from the Hudson’s Bay Company through the 15 FTA, through NAFTA, through the Trans-Pacific 16 Partnership, to the Canada-Korea Free Trade Agreement, 17 to the USMCA, to the steel and aluminum tariff 18 conversation that is just hopefully concluded
19 yesterday with President Trump, Canada has been and 20 always will be a trading nation. 21 We create Canadian jobs through world
22 sales. Our ability to engage in the world is 23 essential to our quality of life. It’s essential to 24 our ability to be economic stewards and leaders in the 25 world.
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1 It’s essential to the quality of life 2 that we have at home. The world class health care 3 system, education system, social services that we have 4 are dependent on the ability of our economy to be 5 healthy, robust, sustained and growing. And that is 6 entirely dependent, in large measure, to our
7 realization of Canada’s economic fact of our trading 8 relationship with the world. 9 So it’s no small, therefore, moment 10 that we are here talking about such a large project of 11 enormous consequence going forward when you consider 12 that Vancouver, broadly speaking, including down here 13 in this part of the lower mainland, this is by far
14 Canada’s largest port, and our economic and trading 15 opportunities, particularly with the Asia Pacific, is 16 going to be growing in its importance and consequence 17 over time. 18 We've seen in the United States -- I’m
19 also a member of the NAFTA Council with the current 20 government, with Prime Minister Trudeau and Minister 21 Freeland, tackling the challenges that have now come
22 to the surface with President Trump’s belligerence 23 towards global liberal order that has sort of been the 24 norm since the end of the Cold War and his attacks on, 25 frankly, Canada and the North American Free Trade
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1 Agreement. 2 And the importance of Canada to have 3 diversified trade beyond the United States is 4 something that I think British Columbians have 5 understood for a while because at our peak in British 6 Columbia, only about a third of our exports, maybe 40
7 percent of British Columbia’s exports to global 8 markets, went to the United States. Much of our 9 trade, of course, goes to the Asia Pacific region. 10 The rest of the country, however, is 11 much more dependent on trade with the United States. 12 About one in three jobs in the province of Ontario is 13 dependent on trade with the United States. In
14 Ontario -- of course, about one in three Canadians 15 lives in the province of Ontario, but Ontario 16 represents about 45 percent of Canada’s economy. 17 The backbone of Ontario’s economy is 18 the manufacturing sector. The backbone of the
19 manufacturing sector is the auto sector, which is why 20 access to the U.S. market is so critical. 21 But as we’ve found with the rise of
22 and the election of President Trump that there’s 23 actually, of course, a shift, and it’s not just 24 entirely limited to President Trump. The anti-NAFTA, 25 antiitrade economic nationalism that we see in the
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1 United States has deep roots now in both the 2 Republican and Democrat parties, and this is a direct 3 threat to Canada’s economic health and well-being. 4 So therefore, the obligation of Canada 5 to seek trade opportunities with the rest of the world 6 to counterbalance our long-standing dependence on
7 access to the U.S. market is something that is 8 existential to the economic health and future of 9 Canada. 10 We may have some certainty going 11 forward with the USMCA, but the reality is an 12 agitation has been triggered in the United States that 13 is -- that has large purchase in both parties in the
14 United States and it’s not going to go away any time 15 soon. So therefore, it was appropriate, I think, for 16 the Prime Minister to appoint Minister Jim Carr as 17 Minister of Trade Diversification for Canada. 18 It’s something that our government
19 pursued in a different way when I was Minister of the 20 Asia Pacific Gateway, but pursuing these trade 21 opportunities is essential so that we can diversify,
22 so we can have quality of life that all of us expect. 23 And the follow-through on that ethic 24 finds us here today talking about the Roberts Bank 25 Terminal 2 Project because it’s one thing to talk sort
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1 of in, you know, rhetorical, you know, phrases, as I 2 just did about the global trading reality, but 3 following through can be a hell of a thing, and this 4 is a hell of a thing. 5 And this project is really critical. 6 And so I’m just going to briefly now also read in to
7 the testimony here some of the presentation that’s 8 been put together by the Canada China Business Council 9 on whose Board I am a member. 10 I also want to say -- I should have 11 said perhaps at the outset just so there’s clarity on 12 this as well, I have no conflicts in this conversation 13 in the work that I do at Dentons Law Firm, the work
14 that I do in the private sector and the Boards that I 15 sit on. I have no personal stake in this project. I 16 don't act on behalf of anybody specifically related to 17 this project or anybody who aspires to be associated 18 with this project and any part of the construction or
19 maintenance of the project, so I am here genuinely as 20 someone who has some experience in this from a public 21 policy perspective and from my time in public life.
22 Now, my time in the private sector, as 23 I said, includes my membership on the Board of the 24 Canada China Business Council. And the CCBC was 25 founded 40 years ago by a group of forward-looking
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1 Canadian business leaders who, back when there was no 2 bilateral business, saw a potential to establish a 3 non-profit, non-governmental, non-partisan 4 membership-driven organization to help create what we 5 would call more business in China and better business 6 with China.
7 Our 300-plus member organization 8 members are 90 percent Canadian companies, with the 9 other 10 percent being Chinese companies who have made 10 significant investments in Canada. 11 We exist to ensure that Canada 12 benefits from opportunities that China presents, 13 and -- this is important –- because while more trade
14 and investment in both directions benefits both 15 countries, we want to make sure that Canada’s economy 16 derives significant advantage. 17 China has gone from an interesting 18 emerging market play to a major driver in the world
19 economy, contributing fully one-third of the world’s 20 annual incremental GDP growth. China’s growth is on 21 such a large base that it adds the equivalent of a
22 Canada or Australia to its economy every single year. 23 And while the broader subject of 24 diversification across Asia is relevant, the fact that 25 China is just so much bigger than any other country,
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1 our merchandise trade with China, for example, in 2018 2 is over $102 billion, which is triple that of Japan 3 and more than 11 times that of India. 4 It’s a very important market for 5 exports of agricultural commodities like grain and 6 oilseeds as well as pulp and paper products.
7 China’s middle class has a strong 8 thirst for high quality goods from Canada. Our 9 exports to China have increased 18 percent in 2018, 10 following a 13 percent increase in 2017. Imports from 11 China were also up seven percent and 10 percent, 12 respectively. 13 In addition to Canadian companies with
14 growing interest in exporting, there are prominent 15 examples of Chinese companies who are investing in 16 Canada and building manufacturing capacity and then 17 exporting back to Asia from Canada. 18 The CCBC recently surveyed Canadian
19 companies doing business in China and with China. 20 Forty-two (42) percent of the 201 respondents are 21 either exporting products to or importing from China.
22 When asked about expansion, two-thirds of respondents 23 are planning to expand their China activities and, of 24 these, 56 percent will expand their exports to China. 25 It is important that capacity be
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1 available to support that expansion. If Canada 2 doesn’t seize the opportunity, other countries will. 3 If China wants what Canada has to sell 4 and if Canadian companies aggressively pursue those 5 sales, the product will make its way to China. 6 However, if infrastructure barriers such as port
7 capacity stand in the way, this Canada product will 8 ship via other ports such as those in the U.S., which 9 means Canada will not benefit from the added value 10 provided by an all-Canadian logistics solution or the 11 cost of shipping will prevent the sale from going to a 12 Canadian company. 13 The economic benefits of port
14 construction and operation for the RBT2 are clear, and 15 they are in Canada’s favour. As our surveys have 16 shown, there are many barriers to doing business with 17 China. Right now access to adequate shipping capacity 18 is not one of them.
19 As Asia generates more and more of the 20 world’s demand, let’s not establish a barrier of our 21 own making by opposing this project.
22 I would further add -- that’s the end 23 of the prepared statement that has been submitted to 24 this body. 25 But further to that, I would also add,
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1 this is just the context of China, when you add in the 2 Trans-Pacific Partnership or the CPTPP, as it’s now 3 referred to, or the Canada-Korea Free Trade 4 Agreement -- we forget that Korea is a country that 5 has a population of about 55, 60 million people, and 6 it’s in a physical footprint the size of New
7 Brunswick. And its opportunities for Canada and 8 British Columbia in terms of a trading relationship is 9 extraordinarily important. 10 And I suppose in closing I would just 11 say, with regard to your specific mandate in the CEAA 12 process, that we talk often about Canada, you know, 13 being a leader in the world in a lot of ways. I think
14 the process that you’re engaged in here is 15 extraordinarily important in part because the way in 16 which we do things, not just that we do things, is 17 really an exemplar, I think, to the world. 18 We have learned, I think, as a country
19 through the expansion of the facility up in Prince 20 Rupert more than a decade ago and the regulatory 21 processes that were put in place there about best
22 practices and how to do this well. 23 We certainly can edit, copy, paste and 24 learn from the expansions that have happened in 25 Rotterdam, from the expansions that have happened in
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1 L.A. Long Beach, the expansions that have happened in 2 Portland, the expansions that have happened in Seattle 3 recently, their port expansion. 4 So there are best practices around the 5 world. And I think Canada makes our –- in our small 6 footprint in terms of population, we make great
7 contributions to the world when we do things well, and 8 we can be that example to the world. 9 I used to -- when I was in public life 10 I used to always remind people that we’re the 11 second-largest country in the world in size, but we’re 12 the 37th largest in population and we punch above our 13 weights in a lot of ways, in arts and culture and our
14 capacity to trade with all the world. 15 We’re the only country on the planet 16 that has market access through binding trade 17 agreements with more than 52 percent of the global 18 economy. Our capacity to grow and to have a high
19 quality of life while being leaders is unparalleled 20 with any other country on the planet, and having a 21 project like this move forward while learning from
22 other countries in the world, learning from our own 23 successes and failures in the past, is the example 24 that we can, I think, project forward beyond the scope 25 of this project.
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1 There’s clearly a need for this 2 project. There’s clearly a benefit from this 3 project. Like anything in the world, if you really 4 want to find a reason not to do something, you can 5 find a reason not to do something. 6 The challenge is getting to yes in a
7 responsible way that is environmentally sustainable, 8 that is socially responsible, that engages all the 9 communities effectively, and that provides the best 10 benefit for all while being mindful of our 11 obligations, of course, to climate, to the planet, and 12 to each other. 13 So I will end it there.
14 I know that the Business Council has 15 offered background information on some of the metrics 16 about exports and why this particular project is of 17 great importance. And I will just close where I began 18 by saying thank you for the Panel for the openness
19 and, again, thank you to your staff and team for being 20 accommodating to me and I think others who are taking 21 advantage of this opportunity. Really welcome the
22 CEAA process and the professionalism of your team. 23 So thanks very much. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 25 We have some questions.
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1 Dr. Steyn, please. 2 MEMBER STEYN: Thank you, Mr. Moore, 3 for your presentation. 4 Just very briefly, is the Vancouver 5 Fraser Port Authority a member of the Canada China 6 Business Council?
7 HON. JAMES MOORE: They have been in 8 the past. I’m not sure if they are now. I can’t speak 9 to that. 10 MEMBER STEYN: Okay. Thank you. 11 So you recognize, of course, as you’ve 12 said -- excuse me -- we are created, this Panel is 13 created under the Canadian Environmental Assessment
14 Act. And while, of course, our emphasis is on the 15 environment, we do not ignore other factors, including 16 business trade, finances, economics. 17 You have said that your organization’s 18 prime objective is, of course, economic stewardship,
19 and that is exactly as it should be. 20 Could you help me understand how your 21 organization also helps environmental stewardship? Do
22 you have active policies that deal with such questions 23 as a balance against economic stewardship? 24 HON. JAMES MOORE: We do. But look, 25 we’re not a -- you know, we’re not an engineering
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1 organization, we’re not an environmental assessment 2 organization in its own. But as has been pointed out 3 by the successive Ambassadors to China, frankly, if 4 you go to Guy Saint-Jacques, if you look at what David 5 Mulroney, when he was Ambassador, and what's most 6 recently John McCallum when he was Ambassador to
7 China, all of them have come back with differing 8 stories about opportunities in China. But among 9 them -- chief among them in terms of one of our 10 principal exports to China should be green technology 11 and environmental stewardship. There’s a great demand 12 for that. 13 So you know, our view is that this
14 project done effectively through the regulatory 15 capacity that you all have that you impose on these 16 kinds of projects and their build, that in and of 17 itself is actually an export to China. 18 We think modelling effective
19 governance, modelling effective environmental 20 stewardship is itself an export. And also, we do 21 help and support those companies who see the obvious
22 benefit and the obvious market opportunity of the rise 23 of consciousness, frankly, in China of the importance 24 of climate change, pollution, and having effective 25 answers to that.
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1 So helping firms that are promoting 2 and exporting green technologies to China is actually 3 a big part of the business that we support as the 4 CCBC, and certainly we think that, again, you know, 5 these kinds of projects, done effectively, these are 6 the things that we point to.
7 Our Ambassadors around the world, our 8 Consuls-General, our High Commissioners and our 9 Ministers and Prime Minister and Premiers when they 10 travel around the world, we want them to have projects 11 like this where we can not just preach out of 12 self-righteousness and arrogance, but actually have 13 done projects effectively and responsibly and say,
14 look, we walk our talk. We do things well in Canada. 15 This is what we've done. This is how we regulated, 16 this is how we consulted. 17 So we advocate that, is the short way 18 of saying it.
19 MEMBER STEYN: Good. Thank you very 20 much. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dr. Levy.
22 MEMBER LEVY: Thank you, Mr. Moore, 23 for your presentation. 24 We had a presenter yesterday, one of 25 the participants, Mr. Otto Langer, and he is very
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1 concerned about maintaining environmental quality in 2 the Fraser River estuary. And a number of times 3 through his presentation he stressed the need to find 4 balance between economic development and habitat 5 protection. 6 I would be very interested in your
7 perspective as an ex-Cabinet Minister and someone 8 who's been involved in free trade agreements, how do 9 you find that balance between environment and economy 10 so that it reflects Canadian objectives and values? 11 HON. JAMES MOORE: I think it’s 12 obviously enormously important. I didn’t take in the 13 presentation, so I won’t pick it, but I assume the
14 thesis was as you describe and I agree with that 15 wholeheartedly. 16 You know, in a democracy, the majority 17 have rights. And in a democracy, you can only do or 18 move forward on matters with which you have public
19 consent and engagement. 20 We’ve come up with a cute phrase, 21 social licence, which is a little bit too vague. But
22 I just think sort of a democratic mandate and public 23 sentiment. 24 We value our waterways, we value our 25 environment. "Beautiful British Columbia" is on our
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1 licence plate for a reason. And the balance that we 2 strike is, I think, enormously important. 3 This is where we live. This is our 4 home, and it’s part of our identity, our culture and 5 our sense of belonging. 6 That balance often has failed to have
7 been struck. I mean, it’s -- another hat that I wear 8 is as Chancellor of the University of Northern British 9 Columbia. We brand ourselves as Canada’s green 10 university because of our large area as a research 11 institution and also as –- just as a university in 12 environmental sciences and our forestry program and so 13 on that we are, we think, very progressive in the way
14 in which we approach environmental stewardship and 15 management. 16 And it’s always a wonder when you tell 17 people factually it’s the case that the Province of 18 British Columbia, we didn’t have a forest practices
19 code in this province until 1986. Prior to 1986, this 20 province -- there were effectively no rules, other 21 than what you think is probably best in the bush.
22 We didn’t have a forest practices 23 code. So from 1986 through until today as a country, 24 as a province, we’re actually still pretty young at 25 this. And the hockey stick curve of growth of
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1 awareness, responsibility, consciousness, science, 2 politics all coming together and realizing that we 3 have to strike the balance it sounds like the 4 presenter was speaking to, is something that I think 5 is at the forefront of everybody’s mind now. 6 And I think it’s true of industry as
7 well. And I think the -– well, I’ll be blunt about 8 it, but you think about the Northern Gateway Project 9 or the Prosperity Mine Projects which our government 10 rejected twice over recommendations from the 11 environmental review process. 12 We rejected those projects in spite of 13 great pressure from the provincial government of
14 Premier Clark, great pressure from people in Williams 15 Lake and the surrounding area to approve those 16 projects politically and to override the judgment of 17 CEAA. 18 We said no. We have to have an
19 evidence-based process that respects Canada and the 20 environment and do these things hand in glove. And I 21 think the last folks who have kind of come to the
22 table in that sort of awakening and realization have 23 been those in industry, but I think they’re there now. 24 And I think these moments of 25 confrontation have net-net been good in terms of our
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1 understanding of these things. But that said, I often 2 say there’s a difference between being a 3 environmentalist and being a preservationist. 4 There's a difference between progress 5 and regress, and being progressive means moving 6 forward and finding a way to say yes responsibly. It
7 doesn't mean rushing to yes, but it means doing things 8 effectively. 9 And you know, maybe that’s why I find 10 myself in a bit of disagreement with the previous 11 presenter. I’m not going to go into the details on 12 that because she's not here to rebut herself or my 13 rebuttal of her.
14 But you know, we need to move forward 15 and we need to lead, we need to grow, and we need to 16 understand that just saying no to projects here 17 locally because, you know, we think that sort of we 18 can be masochistic about our economy and therefore
19 somehow have some environmental and ecological 20 benefit. 21 You know, the greater gain for the
22 environment is doing things effectively in our 23 relatively small area of the world, doing things 24 effectively, and then drawing the world along to our 25 processes of legislation and regulation, oversight and
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1 engagement so that our example of success can be 2 replicated around the world. 3 Saying no to a project here and 4 saying, well, therefore, we don’t have this one little 5 contribution to a greater global problem, that’s 6 actually small ball. That’s missing the point.
7 The bigger win is doing projects 8 effectively and then saying to the world, ”This is how 9 we think it can be done and let's all do this together 10 and responsibly”. 11 We all share one planet. We are one 12 species. We don't speciate. We are one species on 13 this planet, one planet on the cooling crust of a
14 complicated ecosystem. Let’s all be mindful of that 15 and work together and do these things effectively. 16 That’s leadership. That’s truly 17 progressive environmental policy. 18 MEMBER LEVY: Thank you. Appreciate
19 your answer. 20 HON. JAMES MOORE: Sure. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much,
22 Mr. Moore. 23 We get lots of input from different 24 people doing public hearings and that’s what makes it 25 interesting, to see the context, the whole context and
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1 what’s at stake. 2 I’d like to go back to the 3 presentation from the CCBC. You mentioned that there 4 are many barriers doing business with China and how is 5 that important? I mean, what are the barriers? 6 HON. JAMES MOORE: I don’t know that
7 we have enough time. But you know, we have -- well, I 8 mean, look. 9 China is -- there’s been a bet that’s 10 been made with regard to China over the past, say, 20 11 years about, you know, if you have expanded trade, 12 then you’ll have rules-based trade, rules-based trade 13 will lead to rule of law, rule of law will lead to
14 greater democracy, et cetera, et cetera. And those 15 dominoes haven’t quite fallen in that direction. 16 The barriers to trade with China are 17 manifest, from intellectual property theft, to them 18 not playing by the rules with regard to their WTO
19 obligations when they came into the WTO, to, you know, 20 the fact that, broadly speaking, we’re not actually 21 apples to apples. We’re not dealing with a market
22 economy nose to nose. 23 It’s a real problem. Currency 24 manipulation. There are real issues and challenges 25 with regard to China.
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1 The recent conversation -- I was on 2 BNN yesterday talking about this with President Trump 3 and the ongoing, you know, deal that he says he’s 4 trying to get with China. Donald Trump does deals and 5 all this, and -- but that’s his nomenclature, I think, 6 from the private sector. It's not actually -- there's
7 not actually a deal on trade with regard to China. 8 But I think what’s actually happening 9 right now is probably the most important public policy 10 debate of the last 10 years. It’s probably the most 11 important geopolitical public policy discussion that’s 12 happened perhaps since 2003 and the Iraq war globally 13 is happening right now in the confrontation between Xi
14 Jinping and the United States. 15 And there's now -- I think there will 16 be an alignment of western democracies and western 17 countries and a re-rationalization of our trade deals 18 and trade approach with China. And it’s enormously
19 important because there is a coming confrontation and 20 it’s happening now. 21 I think Donald Trump found his way
22 into this. I don’t think there’s a great, you know, 23 body of intellectual momentum behind his approach to 24 this, but I think he is, as chance would have it, 25 maybe the right person at the right time to be the
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1 aggressor on behalf of the west against a country that 2 has been bullying a lot of countries around the world 3 with regard to its One Belt One Road Initiative, 4 intellectual property theft, disregard of WTO rules, 5 the surveillance state, the exploitation of, 6 effectively, slave labour in their own country,
7 disregarding of environmental standards. 8 And I think the confrontation will 9 actually result -- it'll actually be very good for 10 China, it'll be good for us, it'll be good for 11 everybody, this confrontation in the end game, if 12 there’s sort of a consolidation of western opinion on 13 this.
14 So I don't -- it’s a big broad policy 15 question that’s going on, but it’s a very important 16 time, and I think when that ends and when there’s a 17 re-rationalization of this relationship between the 18 west and China, then there will be greater domestic
19 consent in Canada in this part of the country for 20 greater trade with China and with the Asia Pacific, 21 and that’s why this project will be important in time
22 because right now there’s great animosity towards 23 China. 24 You know, when President Trump gave 25 his State of the Union speech in January to the Joint
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1 Session of Congress, there was an extraordinarily 2 split room, as you will remember. Half the room stood 3 at different moments during that speech. 4 But there were a couple of moments of 5 clarity and bipartisan alignment, and one of those 6 moments was when President Trump said it’s time to get
7 tough and speak clearly and with one voice with regard 8 to China. 9 And both parties, there’s a bipartisan 10 consensus. If you actually take the words that 11 President Trump is using, you know, minus the style 12 that he uses, he’s actually saying the same things 13 that Bernie Sanders has been saying for 20 years.
14 There’s a bipartisan consolidation 15 view on this. And Canada is now -- because of the 16 USMCA and the clause in section 32, we now have a 17 North American alignment in terms of our relationship 18 with China. And businesses who are going to want to
19 do business with China going forward will want to see 20 this confrontation be successful because it’ll 21 elevate, I think, everybody’s understanding of the
22 real world dynamic of doing business with that part of 23 the world. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. It makes 25 sense then when you say that at the present, access to
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1 adequate shipping capacity is not one of them. And 2 for me when -- that’s why I needed clarification. I 3 could see it in terms of not enough exposure of 4 Canadian products, et cetera. But I think when you 5 say that when these issues are solved there would 6 be -- it’s a huge market and it’s already, in your
7 presentation here, how big it is already. 8 HON. JAMES MOORE: And, of course, it 9 will continue to grow. You all have seen the same 10 data that I saw when I was in cabinet, that I think is 11 broadly publicly available. You know, I was at the 12 announcement with Premier Campbell and Minister David 13 Emerson and Minister Kevin Falcon when we announced
14 federally, I think it was $450 million for the South 15 Fraser Perimeter Road. This is a continuum of 16 investment. 17 There’s a public good in terms of the 18 environment, and it’s not just the climate change
19 angle. Getting container traffic out from the 20 downtown core, as the City of Vancouver is taking down 21 the Georgia viaduct and both viaducts into the city.
22 The downtown core is not the place for massively 23 increased container traffic. 24 It will increase over time because of 25 the nature of the port and what we have there, and
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1 access to the Georgia Strait and so on. But having 2 increased container traffic and capacity in Prince 3 Rupert, having increased container capacity here. We 4 built the South Fraser Perimeter Road so that when 5 trucks and containers are coming from the Fraser 6 Valley, they don’t come over the Port Mann Bridge.
7 They veer south, stay on the south side of the Fraser 8 River. They come here to Deltaport and they can ship 9 to the world from here, keeping the Lower Mainland 10 clear from congestion, clear from the dangers of 11 increased traffic accidents, having fewer trucks 12 idling and spewing toxins into the air. This is all 13 part of not just greater commerce and more money but
14 being environmentally responsible. 15 So the idea of saying no to this 16 terminal, making the South Fraser perimeter road sort 17 of half a wasteful project. Having more containers 18 going into downtown Vancouver, jeopardizing public
19 safety, having more emissions going into the air, 20 making Vancouver less competitive, less, you know, 21 cosmopolitan city, a less efficiently run city,
22 because we want to say no to a project, because we’re 23 somehow contributing in an altruistic, you know, 24 self-righteous way to the global fight against -- 25 sorry, it doesn’t carry any water as an argument. It
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1 carries no weight. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we go back on the 3 ground with the CCBC members, are there any specific 4 complaints in terms of shipping their products or 5 importing their products, you know, for -- whether 6 transportation is not up to it or there are too many
7 problems? Have you heard anything in the background 8 of general complaints? 9 HON. JAMES MOORE: Sure. That’s among 10 the -- I tried to enumerate the challenges of doing 11 business in China. It’s one of the things that we do; 12 not only through CCBC, but our partnership with the 13 Government of Canada and the trade commission services
14 that exist in China. 15 There’s been a massive growth of the 16 Government of Canada’s footprint in China because of 17 this. The non-trade tariff barriers, right, little 18 administrative things, the alignment of data, the
19 reporting of data, ineffective languages and all that, 20 the non-tariff trade barriers are real administrative 21 burdens for doing business in China.
22 When you do have an authoritarian 23 state that is capitalistic but not market driven, you 24 can have real challenges, and it’s on a 25 sector-by-sector basis, on a commodity by commodity
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1 basis, it can be a little bit of, sort of regulatory 2 and combat in helping individual firms, and that’s a 3 big part of what Canada’s trade commission services 4 and our ambassadorial weight in China spends a lot of 5 time doing. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
7 for your participation. Very enlightening. Yes, I 8 think it was good. Before you get up, I always ask if 9 there’s any participants who would like to ask you 10 questions, and I believe -- first there's this 11 gentleman, please. 12 HON. JAMES MOORE: Uh-oh. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: You didn’t expect
14 that. It’s part of our procedures. 15 MR. RONBACK: [Off microphone] before, 16 with a radio tower and the -- 17 HON. JAMES MOORE: Oh, the radio 18 tower. I remember. Of course.
19 JIM RONBACK: Sorry. Jim Ronback, a 20 participant on May 28th. The Panel has just recently 21 accepted a motion to add another category to these
22 hearings to deal with alternatives, and as a result, 23 there will be presentations by people who are 24 interested in alternatives, one of them being the CGT, 25 the company that operates the --
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1 HON. JAMES MOORE: GCT? 2 MR. RONBACK: The Port, and they want 3 to build a smaller expansion compared to the one at 4 Roberts Banks 2. I’m curious as to whether you have 5 any opinions of whether a smaller expansion is 6 adequate and appropriate, compared to the island that
7 is proposed by Roberts Bank? 8 HON. JAMES MOORE: I know the firm, 9 GCT, Global Container Terminals, and their presence in 10 Vancouver and New York. I think those are their only 11 two footprints. They have a lot of expertise, 12 particularly in New York, and the complicated nature 13 of expanding ports there. I frankly would surrender
14 to their judgment about what they think is in their 15 interest. 16 But, you know, I think the broader 17 lens of the 30,000-foot view that you all have an 18 obligation to take a look at, and I think public
19 officeholders have as well, you know, always have to 20 take presentations by firms, whether it’s GCT or 21 others with a bit of a grain of salt because they have
22 a fiduciary obligation and a corporate interest that 23 goes, you know, above the broader public interest. 24 So I would sort of surrender to -- I 25 would hope for, beyond the CEAA process, the
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1 governments of British Columbia and Government of 2 Canada, to make investments that are responsible and 3 reflective not just of a company’s interest but of the 4 broader public interest in terms of where capacity’s 5 going forward. 6 I know that TEUs and shipments and all
7 that, have ebbed and flowed over the years, but it’s 8 sort of, you know, a wave, an upward scale over time, 9 towards greater growth and capacity. So I would 10 assume that the recognition of our relationship with 11 the Trans-Pacific Partnership, our aspiration for 12 greater access in China, the Canada-Korea free trade 13 agreement, would probably exceed our opportunities
14 that would be from a smaller growth of a GCT facility 15 in Vancouver. 16 And particularly now that we have, 17 hopefully, certainty with the new USMCA with the 18 United States, that we will be exporting through
19 Canada a lot of goods from the United States, as well 20 to global markets that would perhaps find a better 21 economic pathway to the Asia-Pacific markets, either
22 through Prince Rupert or through here or through 23 Vancouver, then they would through L.A. Long Beach or 24 other opportunities in the West Coast of the United 25 States.
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1 My long way of saying I would 2 surrender to the market, let the market speak about 3 which makes the most sense, and then let the 4 regulators speak and the government speak in terms of 5 the public interest and balance those interests 6 appropriately.
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have 8 another presenter -- I mean another participant who 9 wants to ask a question. Can you go to the 10 microphone, please, and identify yourself and ask a 11 question? You have a question -- 12 MS. WORLD: My name is Susan, Susan 13 World. I came from China. So I worked as an
14 environmental engineer. I know a little bit about the 15 economy and the social science. 16 I have two questions for you, sir, 17 okay? First of all, what are the main products does 18 Canada and China trade, such as agriculture, such as
19 forests, such as industry, petroleum, such as that, 20 okay? And how many million TEUs between these two 21 countries trade every year? This is the first
22 question. 23 A second question is that -- 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can we stop? 25 Answering the first question, please?
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1 MS. WORLD: Okay, yes. 2 HON. JAMES MOORE: If you have a 3 second one. Agriculture products would be number one, 4 as exemplified by the recent fight that we have over 5 canola and the scope of that impact -- of those 6 actions by China against canola. So agricultural
7 exports would be number one. And agricultural 8 exports, along with green technology, have been 9 habitually identified by McKinsey, by the Asia-Pacific 10 Foundation, by the Government of Canada, by either 11 Liberal or Conservative governments, as the big 12 opportunities going forward. 13 Millions of TEUs, I don’t know.
14 Offhand, I couldn’t tell you. Obviously, those 15 numbers change quarterly, so I don’t have those 16 numbers. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: And your second 18 question, Mrs. World?
19 MS. WORLD: I have a second question. 20 Because, you know, Canada is a country, and along the 21 West Coast of Canada, besides this Metro Vancouver
22 Port, are there any other ports; the other provinces, 23 the other, you know, sectors of the north British 24 Columbia? Canada is a big country. Yes? 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: So your question, if
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1 I understand well, are there other ports that export 2 or import to China? 3 MS. WORLD: Yes. Goes to China, goes 4 to Asia, goes to the globe, everywhere. So my 5 question is, that right now RBT2 is a project proposed 6 by the Metro Vancouver Port, right? Which is very
7 big, but is something like it’s just local, in 8 Vancouver, Greater Vancouver. So my question is, that 9 are there any other ports, in the north of B.C., 10 British Columbia, and the Yukon, different provinces? 11 HON. JAMES MOORE: Well, not the 12 Yukon, because the geography. But, yes, in Prince 13 Rupert, of course, here in the Lower Mainland, and, of
14 course, we’re the only sea-land port. I don’t want to 15 be rude and say the obvious but, yeah. 16 There is container traffic, air 17 container traffic or air cargo that comes out of even 18 Pearson airport, and there was a project for the
19 expansion of the airport in Edmonton maybe a decade 20 ago now. I suspect it’s kind of come and gone now as 21 a project. They have other concerns.
22 But to have sort of a western port, 23 sort of multimodal facility, sort things out in and 24 around the Edmonton area because of their access to 25 rail. And from Edmonton you can go north to Rupert
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1 and south to Vancouver, or have a greater, expanded 2 airport and have more air cargo go to China from 3 Edmonton, which would obviously have greater public 4 sympathy than expanding the airport in Vancouver for 5 more air cargo, because you can imagine the politics 6 of that. But that’s -- that’s the nature of our
7 relationship with infrastructure in China. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are 9 there any questions from Vancouver Fraser Port 10 Authority? 11 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 No. I have to say I’ve been sitting here quite 13 fascinated by having the chance to hear from a former
14 cabinet minister on the inside of some of these 15 things. 16 I want to thank Mr. Moore for taking 17 time away from his young family on a Saturday of a 18 long weekend, and just to confirm Dr. Steyn’s
19 question, yes, the Port Authority is a member of the 20 Canada China Business Council. 21 HON. JAMES MOORE: I didn’t know that.
22 There’s no conspiracy or (laughing). Thank you. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think I have one 24 more participant who would like to ask a question. 25 MS. BELLESS: My name is Armene
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1 Belless and I will be speaking next. Yesterday I 2 learned from the Port Authority that 80 percent of the 3 containers that are leaving now are leaving empty, and 4 the other ones are filled with agricultural projects, 5 presumably I’m thinking soybeans and wheat and pulp 6 for paper. And I don’t know if they use containers,
7 but you also export raw logs. 8 Now, you were talking -- the only 9 other thing you seemed to mention was green tech, that 10 you’re looking to export green tech to China. Does 11 that go in containers? 12 HON. JAMES MOORE: Well, conceivably 13 it could, particularly with some farming practices
14 that we engage in here, resource extraction 15 technologies, these types of things, they could go out 16 in containers as well. But it is true that, you know, 17 that containers, that we have far too many empty 18 containers coming back relative to what’s coming in.
19 But it’s a false parallel. Because 20 the kind of goods that we’re getting, that are coming 21 in from China, are filling the shelves of pretty much
22 every store. So the physical volume of that fills 23 containers. But the value of the goods that go to 24 China, may be smaller in volume, but higher importance 25 in terms of their economic benefit.
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1 You want to fill the containers more, 2 but you get my point, it’s kind of a false comparison 3 in terms of the economic benefit of it. That said, we 4 still do have, I think, a three to one, four to one 5 trade deficit with China. Not that trade deficits are 6 a clear metric of benefit, because I have I think a
7 10,000-to-zero trade deficit with the people who cut 8 my hair, but I’m prepared to have that trade deficit 9 so I don’t look like Chewbacca. 10 ---Laughter / Rires 11 That’s the economics of it. But 12 certainly, you have to plan for the future as well. 13 Sticking to the local project, you know, we had the
14 South Fraser Perimeter Road in the first year or two 15 was pretty empty. It’s filling up. Not that anybody 16 is proposing an expansion of it. But these things 17 fill up over time. Skytrain was pretty empty. 18 Canada Line was empty. Now they’re full. They're
19 talking about adding cars and extending the routes and 20 all that. We have an obligation to plan for the 21 future, and there’s no question that the future of
22 opportunities in China are manifest, as they are with 23 Japan now as part of the -- Japan was the major target 24 market for inclusion -- because the Trans Pacific 25 Partnership is basically NAFTA plus on paper, and the
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1 big plus, the benefit we have in the Trans Pacific 2 Partnership, is to have a binding FTA with Japan, who 3 is Canada’s third largest trading partner. So now 4 they’re in the tent as well. 5 So this terminal and the trading 6 capacity, it’s not just about China. I know that’s my
7 lens, but it’s also Japan, it’s also Vietnam, it’s 8 also South Korea, and it’s also, in time, going to be 9 India as well. We can’t fly everything into India, 10 but will find its way through containers, cargo, and 11 then rail. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have a second 13 question?
14 MS. BELLESS: Yes, please. Well maybe 15 two. My research looking at ports on the West Coast, 16 Los Angeles and Seattle, Tacoma, and San Francisco, 17 that would be Oakland, they’re greatly increasing in 18 capacity, and I’m curious why so many containers are
19 coming in here that are bound for the United States. 20 If it was the Midwest, that would sort 21 of understand it and they ought to be going to Prince
22 Rupert, not coming through here. But are they -- and 23 apparently they’re being sent down the West Coast also 24 at what is reported as little or no benefit to Canada. 25 So why are you helping them out? I don’t understand
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1 the logic. 2 HON. JAMES MOORE: Well, all ports are 3 their own complications with regard -- they have 4 labour issues, they’ll have infrastructure issues, 5 they’ll have regulatory issues, they’ll have capacity 6 issues, they’ll have all kinds of logistics challenges
7 that may ebb and flow. The fact that a firm that is 8 drawing in goods from elsewhere coming into a port on 9 the West Coast will look at different ports and 10 they’ll have different also rates of doing business. 11 So there’s a competition going on. 12 If a container comes off a ship and is 13 offloaded in Vancouver and is put on a truck and is
14 bound for the United States, that creates jobs at the 15 port. It creates jobs for the pilots; it creates 16 jobs on the ships; it creates jobs for the 17 maintenance folks; it creates jobs for the truckers; 18 it creates jobs at the border; it creates jobs when
19 people who are driving the trucks stop and get fuel; 20 it creates jobs when they stop and get a sandwich; it 21 creates jobs when they have to overnight here at this
22 hotel; It creates jobs. Movement of goods, just on 23 its own creates jobs. It’s not just the goods and 24 where they’re destined to. 25 The process of moving stuff creates
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1 thousands of jobs and, in fact, driving, just driving 2 vehicles, is the number one employer of males in 3 Canada. So just the movement of goods creates tens of 4 thousands of jobs in Canada. It’s a good thing. 5 MS. BELLESS: One quick question. If 6 you’re looking to markets in Japan and Korea, wouldn’t
7 Prince Rupert be a much more direct route? 8 HON. JAMES MOORE: Yes, and they have 9 expanded there. The challenges at Prince Rupert, 10 which I think are well-known, is there’s one rail line 11 going in and out, and so there are some capacity 12 issues there. As, you know, people in government, 13 including me, we sort of get exhausted saying Prince
14 Rupert is three days less sailing in markets in the 15 Asia-Pacific than there are all the major U.S. ports. 16 Vancouver is as well. It’s now two days less sailing 17 time, just the fuel savings, all that, is a great 18 benefit. So, yeah.
19 MS. BELLESS: Are they expanding the 20 railroads there? 21 HON. JAMES MOORE: No. There’s always
22 been talk about stacking trains -- I mean, I haven’t 23 had the most up-to-date briefing on what’s happening 24 in Prince Rupert and all that, but as we’ve seen with, 25 you know, with natural gas pipelines or bitumen
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1 pipelines or anything, building something that complex 2 that is so, you know, blunt and unforgiving in its 3 necessary trajectory is a very complicated engineering 4 thing, and getting consent is tough. 5 MS. BELLESS: I read about the 6 railroads leaving here headed for --
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: That’s a comment. A 8 question, please? 9 MS. BELLESS: They’re crowded too. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn’t want you 11 to leave this presentation with the idea that it’s 80 12 percent of containers that are empty, and I think I 13 will allow the proponent a rebuttal on this and
14 correct the information, please. 15 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Madam Chair. 16 Yes, I did want to correct -- I think you may have 17 misunderstood -- 18 MS. BELLESS: Sorry, I meant to say 20
19 percent. 20 MR. STEWART: Thank you. 21 HON. JAMES MOORE: If it’s 80-20, 20
22 empty, that’s very good. Compared to the past, 23 compared to other jurisdictions. That's good. You 24 want to be better, but that’s good. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
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1 for your participation with us. You’ve brought, in 2 many ways, a different look, to look at things. We 3 appreciate it. Thank you. 4 HON. JAMES MOORE: Thank you for your 5 time. Thank you for your patience. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: So our next
7 presenter is Mrs. Belless, please. Can you come and 8 present your comments, please? 9 And good morning and welcome, and 10 we’ll proceed when you are ready. 11 PRESENTATION 12 MS. BELLESS: Thank you. My actual 13 presentation is only --
14 --- Off record discussion / Discussion officieuse 15 MS. BELLESS: Yes, please. Thank you. 16 I’m not an expert in any of the fields 17 that most of the people here are speaking about, but I 18 am an environmental activist, and I’d like to take a
19 couple of minutes to tell you how I wound up here and 20 some things that have happened in Tsawwassen in the 21 last five or six years.
22 We just mentioned the radio towers. 23 I’ve lived in the Point Roberts-Tsawwassen area for 24 about 25 years, and about six years ago, we found out, 25 kind of at the last minute, that the FCC had okayed
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1 and they were going to build five radio towers 150 2 feet high. That’s like a 10-storey building. Right 3 up here at the border, right across the border which 4 is, I don’t know, 5 miles away. 5 Are you folks -- do you know about 6 Point Roberts? That it’s the tip of the peninsula and
7 it’s the United States in the State of Washington. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we are aware. 9 MS. BELLESS: All righty. It was a 10 Canadian company that wanted to put these in and they 11 were 50,000 watts AM antennas. The problem right away 12 with AM antennas is that they don’t -- an FM antenna 13 is very tall and it broadcasts from the top. I’m not
14 technical, but what I’m saying is accurate. The AM 15 antenna, the signal comes out from the entire antenna 16 and moves down to the earth and moves along the 17 ground. And 50,000 watts is usually -- day and night 18 is usually the maximum that you can have.
19 Well, the ill effects would be felt in 20 Point Roberts, but there’s only 1300 people who live 21 there. Tsawwassen is just a little bit bigger and
22 there’s 23,000 people who live here. 23 So just before that, the 24 Tsawwassenites had lost a battle about overhead hydro 25 lines running through their community. They had been
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1 disappointed in the failure to stop the jet fuel tanks 2 just right over here across the river from Ladner, 3 here in Delta. 4 But everyone was really concerned 5 about having the interference you get from the 6 electromagnetic radiation coming out of these towers
7 running through their house, through their bodies, 8 through their children, through your computers, 9 through your electrical system, and we knew, because 10 they had been just across the bay in Ferndale, how 11 much of a problem they were for the people who lived 12 there. 13 So we decided to fight it.
14 We asked for IC’s help, Industry 15 Canada, and they said, “Well, it’s over the border. 16 We don’t have a treaty.” Something or other. And the 17 FCC, we said, “How can you do this? This is eight 18 times to 22 times in Canada too much wattage to have
19 near human beings.” And they said, “Well, you know, 20 you just have 1300 people in Point Roberts.” But 21 their directional signals were aimed towards the Lower
22 Mainland. And so the bulk of the problem was going to 23 be happening here. 24 So we decided -- we formed a 25 cross-border coalition with hundreds of people
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1 involved, and it took three years, but we hired 2 lawyers to fight with the FCC and in Whatcom county. 3 We won on the first round in Whatcom 4 county, they appealed. We won on the second round in 5 Whatcom county, they appealed. They asked for a 6 change of venue to the superior court of the State of
7 Washington in Skagit County and they lost again. They 8 had ten points. They lost on all ten points. Does 9 not apply. No, no. Does not apply. No, no, no. 10 So after a three-year battle, and I 11 was one of the fundraisers, we raised $333,000 and 12 paid out, and we were $35,000 short at the end, but we 13 had another fund-raising event, and the people of
14 Ladner and Tsawwassen brought in the money, and we 15 were able to clear our books. So in all of this 16 because our government would not protect us. So we 17 stood up. 18 And I think from the other citizen
19 activists that are coming up, we’re coming to a time, 20 with the conditions and the things that we’re worried 21 about with ruining our environment and poisoning the
22 Fraser River and the air and climate change, that the 23 people are going to be rising up more and more and 24 say, “No. It’s enough.” Find a way to do more with 25 less and to protect our environment and protect us,
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1 our grandkids -- and I have eight 2 great-grandchildren -- so these are my concerns. 3 So, to my report. Esteemed Panel 4 members, my name is Armene Belless and I live in 5 Tsawwassen, B.C. I’m neither a scientist or an expert 6 on the environmental concerns surrounding the
7 approval of Roberts Bank Terminal 2, RBT2. 8 Fortunately, for me, the experts have plainly laid 9 out the disastrous results that will take place if 10 RBT2 is approved. 11 My first objection has to do with the 12 Vancouver Fraser Port Authority proposing projects and 13 then being the entity that also approves their own
14 projects. I mean, just saying that sentence sounds so 15 wrong. 16 Rather than making a Royal decree in a 17 democracy with checks and balances, in my opinion this 18 plan should have been dropped years ago. It would
19 appear that they’re gambling with taxpayer funds, and 20 the dice are loaded. The economic case for RBT2 does 21 not hold up. T2 will not be privately financed.
22 Ultimately the burden of the estimated $3 billion 23 project will be the burden of every taxpayer. 24 When adding 2.4 million TEUs, the 20 25 foot equivalent units for T2, each unit will cost
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1 $1250. Nearby GCT, Deltaport’s proposed expansion, is 2 priced at $500 per unit. If this expansion were to 3 happen at Prince Rupert, $236 per unit, and I give my 4 reference there. 5 In addition, the City of Delta 6 estimates that 1500 acres of ARL prime agricultural
7 land, with some of the finest agricultural soil in the 8 world, is under threat by VFPA’s expansion plans. 9 VFPA wants to build parking lots and warehouses on 10 this -- okay. So that’s ARL. You know what ARL is, 11 Agricultural Land Reserve. It’s supposed to be kept 12 for uses for agriculture. They want to build parking 13 lots and warehouses on this amazing soil. Have they
14 never heard of the value and the security and food 15 independence? 16 In addition -- I have to make a short 17 comment. There are so few places in Canada that have 18 the right climate and the right soil that -- we’re
19 already dependent on shipping in great amounts of 20 food. They allowed lots and lots of greenhouses to be 21 built on ALR land, saying they’re growing tomatoes and
22 peppers and, you know, they can grow it year-round, 23 and that’s a good agricultural use. Now a great many 24 of those are being turned over to marijuana, which is 25 not edible and not food, but they’re built on ALR
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1 lands. 2 Vancouver’s highways are already 3 terribly congested. We dread having -- my husband and 4 I, to go from Tsawwassen to Vancouver for various 5 medical appointments or events, due to the dense and 6 often slow traffic. All the other big container ports
7 on the Northwest Pacific Coast; namely, L.A. Oakland 8 and Seattle-Tacoma, are served by numerous freeways of 9 up to six to ten lanes. 10 The few freeways serving Vancouver and 11 the Lower Mainland are almost exclusively four lanes. 12 It is estimated that T2 will double the present 13 congestion, air pollution, and noise, with an increase
14 in truck trips daily from 4500 to 9600. Just what the 15 Lower Mainland doesn’t need: More huge trucks going 16 through our already congested highways. 17 Interestingly, most West Coast cargo 18 ports have night gates and/or weekend gates. This
19 makes it possible to move more containers out of the 20 ports more quickly, which results in less expansion 21 for storage being needed. Vancouver ports have
22 neither of these off-hour gate plans. 23 Truck drivers often prefer driving at 24 night. They’re usually paid by the mile, not by the 25 hourly wages, so driving at night with less rush-hour
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1 traffic congestion makes their pay cheques much 2 larger. 3 Twenty-five percent of the West Coast 4 Canada’s containers are transshipped to the U.S., 5 which adds little or nothing to Canada’s economy, and 6 the Seattle-Tacoma container ports are expanded
7 rapidly, which means there will be less need for B.C. 8 container port expansion. 9 Rail traffic in and out of Vancouver 10 is a big issue. The southern route simply cannot 11 handle large increases in containers were RBT2 to be 12 built, and that’s according to Against Port 13 Expansion.org. Prince Rupert is a much better place
14 for more expansion and better train access. 15 Speaking about the train access from 16 Vancouver -- a side story. If you've ever travelled 17 in B.C. on Trans-Canada 1, you know that sometimes 18 there's only two lanes for vehicles, and we’ve
19 travelled there extensively. 20 When one leaves Cache Creek up on 21 Highway 1 here, it’s a couple hundred -- well maybe
22 300 kilometres, heading east towards Kamloops on 23 Highway 1, you might have looked down and across the 24 valley and noticed a beautiful campground nestled in 25 the trees besides the Thompson River. Sorry.
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1 Last year my husband and I were 2 pulling our travel trailer as we headed down into this 3 valley. We crossed several sets of railroad tracks 4 while settling into a spot right near the river. We 5 heard trains to the north of us, taking turns idling 6 on the sidings, and we heard more trains above us on
7 the south side of the river, halfway up the nearby 8 mountain. Trains would often idle for long periods 9 both to the north and the south of us. They took 10 turns all night, with both of them on their adjacent 11 sightings. 12 These trains on two different railroad 13 elevations seemed to be hauling at capacity and
14 wasting fuel and time as they endlessly idled and took 15 their time -- took their turns getting back on the 16 track. It’s difficult to imagine how they could 17 manage to haul many more container flat cars. Much 18 better to route any increase in containers north to
19 Prince Rupert. 20 I’m asking the Review Panel to 21 consider the cumulative evidence and the likely
22 unintended consequences of multiple polluters all 23 along the Fraser River, including the Fraser River 24 Estuary that we’re discussing all week. 25 The Panel for Environment and Climate
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1 Change Canada identifies impacts to the Roberts Banks 2 wetlands and wildlife as severe, immediate, 3 irreversible, and continuous. In other words, the 4 damage that T2 would do to Brunswick Point cannot be 5 fixed, cannot be repaired or changed. 6 The diatoms that produce the special
7 biofilm that feeds as many as 1 million sandpipers 8 each spring will die, and so will the sandpipers that 9 have flown 1,000 to 2,000 miles to this location, 10 where they arrive famished and exhausted. After 11 feeding and resting, they will travel more thousands 12 of miles to nest in the far north, unless T2 is built. 13 And I had the photo that’s on the
14 screen, and that’s just a picture of a sign that we 15 took walking out to Brunswick Point where Delta 16 Parks -- I’ll just read a small section here: 17 "The mud flats are many 18 kilometres wide during low tide
19 and full of tiny invertebrates, 20 and on the surface tiny diatoms 21 and bacteria coat the mud
22 providing nutrient-rich forage 23 that western sandpipers rely on 24 to fuel up for their long 25 journey. Over 500,000 western
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1 sandpipers have been estimated to 2 use the mud flat on a single day 3 in the spring migration." 4 (As read) 5 And there they are at risk. 6 I’m just about done.
7 Should RBT2 be built, it would be the 8 most expensive terminal project anywhere in the world. 9 Expansion of Prince Rupert can add container capacity 10 equivalent to RBT2 for less than half the price. 11 Fraser River, once one of the greatest 12 salmon-bearing rivers in the world, is being 13 destroyed. It is time to start saying no to these
14 developments that will cause further harm. The mighty 15 Fraser River and all the people and wildlife depend on 16 its health. 17 Just before my last closing paragraph, 18 I wanted to mention about the sandpiper are sort of
19 like the canary in the coal mine. When they’re 20 doomed, it’s a sign that the human beings are being 21 greatly endangered.
22 And also regarding birds, I saw 23 something recently and did a little research about Mao 24 Zedong back in 1958 to 1961 when he was changing 25 everything and sent the educated people off to have
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1 their brains reprogrammed. They noticed -- they were 2 planting for crops and they noticed the sparrows would 3 sometimes pick up some of the rice seeds and they 4 instituted a proclamation that all sparrows should be 5 killed. 6 Millions -– uncounted millions of
7 sparrows were killed. They eliminated the sparrows. 8 And in the following next couple of years, the 9 official number from Chinese government is 15 million 10 people died from starvation. 11 It’s more likely that it was about 45 12 million people that died because when the sparrows 13 weren’t there, the insects swarmed and the locusts
14 came, and all of the crops were destroyed, resulting 15 in this type of starvation. 16 Not that we’re going to starve here. 17 But you have -- there are warning signs, there are 18 common sense things that you can pay attention to and
19 don’t have unintended consequences that are going to 20 be deadly in the long run to our people. 21 One last thing. I didn’t show you my
22 picture on the front of the Optimist newspaper, Delta 23 Optimist. And we were the story of the year for 2014, 24 Tower Power, because the people –- the people -- we 25 insisted we were listened to and we had to protect
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1 ourselves. And I think that’s it. 2 Any questions? Probably not. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 4 for your presentation, Madam Belless. We pronounce it 5 properly, Belless? 6 MS. BELLESS: Yes.
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 8 A few points. You’ve been here all 9 week, so you know, actually, that we did ask the 10 proponent as an undertaking to present us with a 11 high-level description of what would be the investment 12 required from the private sector. 13 We also have asked questions about
14 agricultural land and we’ve talked about that in the 15 previous days, so I won’t come back to that. But your 16 presentation has triggered some clarification I’d like 17 to have from the proponent, if you may allow me to ask 18 questions, in terms of these night gates and weekend
19 gates. 20 And I was wondering -- because you 21 mentioned here that most west coast cargo ports have
22 night gates and weekend gates, and this makes it 23 possible to move containers out of the port more 24 quickly because there’s less traffic on the road. And 25 I was wondering what would be the arrangement for
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1 RBT2. 2 I think we did talk about it a little 3 bit, but I’d like you to summarize again the 4 arrangement, please. 5 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Madam Chair. 6 So about two-thirds of import
7 containers leave by rail, and rail operates 24 hours a 8 day, seven days a week. And about 40 percent of 9 exports come in by rail. So that’s the rail 10 component, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. 11 And then the third of imports that are 12 handled by truck and the two-thirds of exports that 13 are handled by truck are handled day and night shift,
14 five days a week. And I believe now, but if it’s 15 important I can get it checked -- I believe they 16 actually work the day shift on weekends but not the 17 night shift. That’s my understanding -- on Saturdays, 18 sorry. Not yet currently working Sundays.
19 And as I mentioned, the limitation is 20 what is working out in the container ecosystem and the 21 off-dock world. So for the trucks to work at the
22 container terminals on the dock, there has to be 23 corresponding facilities available off the dock. 24 But that is -- it is, at very least, 25 day and night Monday to Friday, and I believe Saturday
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1 day shift as well. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: And have you ever 3 considered to try to increase -- is it possible? Is 4 it realistic to try to increase the traffic during the 5 night? 6 MR. STEWART: I think that will come
7 in time. You know, a number of people have talked 8 about intensification, and there has been significant 9 intensification in the entire supply chain in the 10 lower mainland over the last several decades, both in 11 terms of the efficiency of the marine terminals, the 12 off-dock, the trucking itself. 13 As I mentioned, there are far fewer
14 trucks handling far more containers these days, and 15 simply the fact that they’ve gone from five shifts to 16 10 shifts is a dramatic increase. 17 Whether they’ll ever go to 24 hours a 18 day, I don’t know. That certainly begins to run into
19 issues in some municipalities that don’t want truck 20 traffic at night. 21 But the collective groups of companies
22 that make all this work are very, very creative. And 23 certainly when they’re faced with the alternative of, 24 ”Oh, do I need to invest a lot more money in 25 facilities, or could I operate these more
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1 efficiently?”, they tend to find a way to be more 2 efficient. 3 Sorry. I’ve just had some notes 4 passed to me. 5 Three of the four port container 6 terminals have extended truck gate operating hours. I
7 believe that’s Deltaport here and likely the two in 8 the inner harbour. 9 Oh, the other thing I was asked to 10 mention is the Deltaport truck staging facility that’s 11 currently under construction at Highway 17A and 12 Deltaport Way which will actually help to put a bit 13 of -- it'll be a place that trucks could go if they
14 were wanting to work at the Port and if the off-dock 15 wasn’t available, there's an opportunity for them to 16 stage. 17 And there’s a lot of work being done 18 cooperatively on gate scheduling to improve efficiency
19 and reduce the amount of trucks that are working, and 20 also work on what’s called community system to help 21 coordinate the scheduling amongst all of the various
22 players. So those are all initiatives that are under 23 way today quite unrelated to T2, and we would expect 24 the system to be even more efficient by the time T2 25 might come along in a decade or so.
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 2 Dr. Steyn -- 3 MS. BELLESS: May I just -- the very 4 first thing you said was the trains run all night. 5 Are the trains loaded all night? Is 6 someone out there with the cranes putting --
7 MR. STEWART: Yes, rail operations -- 8 MS. BELLESS: All night long. 9 MR. STEWART: Rail operations work 10 around the clock. 11 MS. BELLESS: Okay. Good. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dr. Steyn? 13 MEMBER STEYN: Mrs. Belless, you've --
14 thank you for your presentation. 15 And you've opened by expressing 16 concern that the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority is 17 both the proposer and the approver of its projects. 18 And I can’t understand that, so with
19 your permission, could I ask the Port Authority 20 themselves to examine that idea? 21 MS. BELLESS: Yes.
22 MR. STEWART: In the normal course of 23 events, the Port Authority is not actually the 24 proposer of projects. Normally the projects are 25 proposed by tenants. We are generally a landlord.
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1 There are some limited occasions where 2 we are the proposer and the regulator, but clearly 3 that is not the case on this project or on a project 4 as significant as this. We’re very much -- as this 5 Panel will know, we are the proponent and you are the 6 decider.
7 There are some instances the Port 8 Authority -- it is -- it was very clearly built when 9 the Canada Marine Act was proposed. There was a very 10 deliberate decision that port authorities would be 11 imbued with that very clear intention and the Canada 12 Marine Act is being reviewed now 20-odd years later. 13 Lots of members of the public have
14 commented on that. And the authority comes -- the 15 regulatory authority also comes under the Canadian 16 Environmental Assessment Agency Act, the original Act 17 and its current incarnation, 2012, and my 18 understanding is the Regulations that are attached to
19 Bill C-69, which is the proposed replacement, continue 20 that, with some slight exceptions for what’s called 21 the designated project rule.
22 So the government has chosen that the 23 Port Authority will, in some instances, continue to be 24 both proponent and regulator, and I can assure you it 25 is a very uncomfortable place to be.
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1 I think opponents suggest that it must 2 be very comfortable, and I would suggest, frankly, I’m 3 happier to be appearing in front of this Panel than I 4 am in front of the permitting group at the Port 5 Authority because they take their –- they take their 6 work as seriously as you do and they want to be
7 absolutely certain that everyone is clear that they 8 are independent and they are rigorous. 9 And we’ve actually had -- the former 10 head of the B.C. Environmental Assessment Office did a 11 review of decisions that our permitting folks deliver, 12 and that was a very, very positive review of that. 13 Perhaps if I could just another
14 comment? 15 The appeal process, if you will, to 16 decisions made by the Port Authority on any matter are 17 through what’s called judicial review, and there has 18 never been -- there’s never been a successful judicial
19 review of a Port Authority decision. 20 There have been 11 across a range of 21 issues since the Port Authority was created under the
22 Canada Marine Act, the Port Authority and its 23 predecessors. 24 Since 1998 there have been 11 judicial 25 reviews of Port Authority decisions, and all 11 have
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1 been upheld. So it is a rigorous process, and I 2 recognize very clearly how it must appear. 3 And the term a fox guarding the hen 4 house was used yesterday, but the fox is on a leash 5 and it is a process that is –- it works well. But 6 that is not the process we're in here.
7 MS. BELLESS: Well, are you saying 8 that you did -- the Port Authority did not propose to 9 build this artificial island in T2? And if not, who 10 did? 11 MR. STEWART: What I’m saying is the 12 Port Authority is not the regulator on this project. 13 MS. BELLESS: The approver?
14 MR. STEWART: We are not the approver. 15 MS. BELLESS: But it is your project 16 that you proposed. 17 MR. STEWART: Yes, we are proposing 18 the project.
19 MS. BELLESS: Okay. Thank you for the 20 clarification. 21 MEMBER STEYN: Thank you very much.
22 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would add a 23 correction, though. 24 The Panel would not decide on a 25 project. The government will.
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1 MS. BELLESS: Whatr arm of the 2 government? Which part of the government will approve 3 it? 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, the permitting 5 for this project is with -- there’s a permit from DFO. 6 There would be other permits also for building, et
7 cetera. 8 Our report goes to the Minister of the 9 Environment and Climate Change Canada and then it 10 would be up to the Minister or the Cabinet to present 11 a decision paper, but it is not the Panel. 12 MS. BELLESS: Okay. Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have another point
14 I’d like to look at with you. 15 You have in your presentation an 16 experience you had with your husband when you were 17 travelling that the trains would often idle for long 18 periods. When you had this experience, was it in the
19 summer or the winter? 20 MS. BELLESS: It was in the summer. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the summer.
22 MS. BELLESS: And it was because there 23 was another train coming from another direction, and 24 they were -- or passing. At any rate, there were two 25 sets of rails on one side of the -- two sets. There’s
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1 two main railroads in B.C., and they were doing all 2 this switching and banging and taking turns, you know, 3 all night long. 4 So that’s not in any way scientific, 5 but they did seem to be terribly busy. So I don’t 6 know what they're going to do about that. They may
7 have to have another railroad or help Prince Rupert 8 get one. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, why I’m 10 bringing this up is, I think there was some confusion 11 the other day when Canadian Pacific came and was 12 talking about the idling and anti-idling. 13 There are locomotive emissions
14 regulations now since 2017, and so the idling periods 15 for locomotives are regulated now. But I think if you 16 were there that day, you understand that when it’s 17 very cold in the winter, they cannot necessarily 18 switch off the engines.
19 MS. BELLESS: It was early September. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 21 So I believe we have questions for you
22 from participants, and I would like to ask the first 23 person, please, to go up -- 24 MS. BELLESS: This is my husband, 25 James Ronback. He’s a systems safety engineer and an
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1 electrical engineer, and he's speaking next week about 2 marine concerns. 3 MR. RONBACK: Hi, it's Jim Ronback. 4 The clarification I would like to 5 determine is the federal government environmental 6 assessment is sometimes delegated to the province. So
7 it goes from CEAA to B.C. Environmental Assessment 8 Office, and this is supposedly being done to avoid 9 overlap and doing the same analysis twice. 10 So this is, I think, a situation where 11 a conflict sometimes arises because in the case of the 12 jet fuel terminal that was proposed is being built 13 right now on the north side of the south arm of the
14 Fraser. That is sitting on Vancouver Port lands and 15 they lease it for their tank farm and, as a result, 16 the provincial environmental authority gets involved 17 in doing the environmental assessment for that 18 project.
19 For the federal environmental aspects, 20 they delegated that to the province, and so that’s 21 where their conflict of interest arises.
22 THE CHAIRPERSON: And your question? 23 MR. RONBACK: Will that in any way be 24 the situation with Roberts Bank 2 or the alternative 25 proposal that’s coming up in the session where CGT is
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1 proposing to add a smaller expansion of the Port on I 2 guess what is now deemed land that belongs to 3 Vancouver Port Authority? 4 Would they be leasing that foreshore 5 from Vancouver Port Authority? 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the question?
7 MR. RONBACK: Will the federal 8 government delegate their responsibilities of doing an 9 environmental assessment to the provincial government? 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't -- you know, 11 the mandates are not part of any responsibility for 12 environmental panels. I mean, we get our mandate from 13 the Minister of the Environment and so whatever
14 decision or whatever process or whatever would happen 15 outside of what we’re doing now, Roberts Bank Terminal 16 2, has nothing to do with the Panel, and I believe 17 with the proponent as well. 18 There’s a second question? Mrs.
19 World? 20 MS. WORLD: My name is Susan, Susan 21 World.
22 And this gentleman, we just met him 23 here. We don’t know each other. I think his question 24 is also my question. 25 Who has done the Environmental Ompact
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1 Statement and environmental assessment report for the 2 proponent? 3 It sounds like, you know, the 4 proponent cannot do the Environmental Impact Statement 5 by himself, so which environmental firms they hire? 6 What are their qualifications?
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think you have all 8 the details in the environmental impact assessment of 9 all the companies that have been used by the 10 proponent, but I would let Mr. Stewart to further 11 have -- if he has comments on that. 12 MR. STEWART: Not really anything to 13 add.
14 All of the resumes of the individuals 15 have been posted on the website. As we mentioned, 16 there are well over 100 professionals of various 17 types, from scientists through engineers, who have 18 worked on this project.
19 THE CHAIRPERSON: And all that -- the 20 list of all the experts on the registry as well. 21 So you can ask the secretariat maybe
22 to give you the number, the exact number, where you 23 can find that. 24 MS. WORLD: Can we have the name of 25 the firm?
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. In the EIS, 2 first of all in the EIS, you have all the names of the 3 firms. But also there’s a document on the registry 4 that was posted recently which lists all the experts 5 that were used by the proponent. 6 Are there any questions from the
7 Vancouver Fraser Port Authority to the presenter? 8 MR. STEWART: No questions, Madam 9 Chair. 10 But Mrs. Belless, I’d like to thank 11 you for your participation, and I commend grass roots 12 activism. It’s an important part of our democracy. 13 Thank you.
14 MS. BELLESS: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, 16 Mrs. Belless. We appreciate your participation this 17 morning. 18 We’ll take a lunch break now and we'll
19 resume at 1:30. Thank you. 20 --- Upon recessing at 1157 / Suspension à 1157 21 --- Upon resuming at 1331 / Reprise à 1331
22 THE CHAIRPERSON: So let us resume 23 discussions. 24 We will have now as the next presenter 25 Mr. Michael Henderson of the Greater Vancouver Gateway
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1 Council. 2 Good afternoon, and welcome. And you 3 can go ahead when you are ready. 4 PRESENTATION 5 MR. HENDERSON: Thank you, Madam 6 Chair, Panel members. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to
7 be here, and we appreciate the opportunity to make a 8 short presentation. 9 My name is Michael Henderson. I’m the 10 managing director for the Greater Vancouver Gateway 11 Council. 12 The Gateway Council has two primary 13 objectives. One is to improve the international
14 competitiveness of the transportation of goods and 15 people through the gateway, which essentially is the 16 lower mainland of British Columbia. of British 17 Columbia. 18 It’s important to note that this
19 gateway, which is located in the lower mainland of 20 British Columbia, serves all of Canada, as I think Mr. 21 Moore pointed out earlier today. of British Columbia,
22 serves all of Canada, as I think Mr. Moore pointed out 23 earlier today. 24 The Gateway Council is also focused on 25 raising awareness among the Vancouver area public and
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1 stakeholders about the importance of the 2 transportation gateway to the local, regional, and 3 national economies. In short, the Greater Vancouver 4 Gateway Council strongly supports the development of 5 Terminal 2. Vancouver Gateway Council strongly 6 supports the development of Terminal 2.
7 The members of the Greater Vancouver 8 Gateway Council consist of most organizations in the 9 lower mainland that are involved in the movement of 10 goods or people. So that would include Vancouver 11 Fraser Port Authority, which I think you’ve already 12 heard a lot about, Canadian National railway, Canadian 13 Pacific Railway, the British Columbia Trucking
14 Association, BNSF Railway, the Southern Railway of 15 British Columbia, the Vancouver International Airport 16 Authority, and TransLink. 17 TransLink, for those not from this 18 part of the world, is an organization responsible for
19 transit services in the lower mainland. They’re also 20 responsible for goods movement in the lower mainland, 21 and that’s why they’re a member of the Gateway
22 Council. and that’s why they’re a member of the 23 Gateway Council. 24 I wanted to say a few words about 25 Terminal 2, the proposed Terminal 2, and why it’s
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1 supported by the Gateway Council and talk a little bit 2 about how it fits in with part of the pre-existing 3 transportation supply chain, both within the lower 4 mainland but also Canada and North America.mainland 5 but also Canada and North America. 6 Terminal 2 is needed to support the
7 growth of the container industry and the Canadian 8 economy and meet Canada’s international trading needs. 9 The last part is one of the key requirements or 10 objectives of the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority, to 11 meet Canada’s international trading needs. 12 Other objectives also, to do that in a 13 way that'ss sensitive to environmental issues and
14 sensitive to community concerns.s sensitive to 15 environmental issues and sensitive to community 16 concerns. 17 Currently, there's -- I think most 18 recently in 2018, there were about four million
19 international container movements on the coast of 20 B.C., so that includes Vancouver and Prince Rupert, 21 primarily. That’s projected by 2040 to grow to
22 somewhere in a range between seven million and 10 23 million. 24 The growth so far has been -– of 25 container volumes has been about 10 percent a year.
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1 So currently it’s about four million to the coast of 2 B.C. It’s projected to increase to seven million to 3 10 million by 2040. 4 We heard a little bit about -– this 5 morning about other options for container terminals. 6 I think -- and you’ll see a graph here in a moment,
7 but I think it’s safe to say that the lower Mainland 8 and the coast of B.C. require all opportunities for 9 the expansion of container terminals and making 10 existing terminals more efficient along the coast of 11 B.C. 12 The growth in container movements is 13 quite overwhelming. And for B.C. to benefit, for B.C.
14 to be able to protect its environment, reduce 15 congestion, the new terminals are really important. 16 These terminals can contribute to a 17 vast array of things, including jobs. That was 18 mentioned earlier. T2 in particular, or Terminal 2, I
19 believe is projected to sustain about 1,000 jobs on 20 the terminal in addition to the jobs that would come 21 from building and all the related jobs which, again,
22 Mr. Moore referred to earlier. 23 There’s one other thing to keep in 24 mind about Terminal 2. There is no more industrial 25 land in the lower mainland of British Columbia that
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1 has a suitable footprint that can sustain a container 2 terminal and, not surprisingly, that’s why people are 3 looking at options such as Terminal 2. It’s 4 essentially creating new land. of British Columbia 5 that has a suitable footprint that can sustain a 6 container terminal and, not surprisingly, that’s why
7 people are looking at options such as Terminal 2. 8 It’s essentially creating new land. 9 There is a little bit of industrial 10 land in Vancouver, but it’s very small parcels, it’s 11 not water side. And although not part of your 12 investigation here, certainly the lack of industrial 13 land in the lower mainland is probably the biggest
14 challenge that faces the Port and the transportation 15 industry in general.ainland is probably the biggest 16 challenge that faces the Port and the transportation 17 industry in general. 18 A bit about the supply chain.
19 Containers that now arrive at GCT Terminal, Global 20 Container Terminals at Roberts Bank or in downtown 21 Vancouver at Vanterm or Centerm rely on road and rail
22 transportation to move those containers either into 23 the heartland of Canada and down into the U.S., in 24 some cases, or from Canada on to the ships heading 25 over to Asia.on to the ships heading over to Asia.
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1 There are two main corridors, one rail 2 and one road, that have been developed over the last 3 15 years or so, again which were referred to briefly 4 this morning. The rail is called the Roberts Bank 5 Rail Corridor. 6 This is a rail corridor that runs from
7 Roberts Bank out to the main lines for CN and CP that 8 then go across Canada and down into the southern U.S. 9 That’s where all the rail traffic that’s involved in 10 container movement travels. 11 Roberts Bank Rail Corridor is a 12 relatively short piece of rail infrastructure that 13 traverses Delta, Surrey, Langley; in other words, it
14 goes through the heart of a highly-urbanized part of 15 the lower mainland. 16 In the last decade, decade and a half, 17 industry, the provincial government, the federal 18 government have invested hugely in that corridor, not
19 just to increase its efficiency, which they have done, 20 but to allow a rail corridor like that to continue to 21 operate when volumes are increasing in a
22 highly-urbanized area. 23 And what did they do? Well, they 24 actually built a series of, nine, I believe it was, 25 grade separations or bridges, as we often call them,
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1 that link these communities so that each of the 2 communities I mentioned is not bisected by a major 3 rail line that runs through which causes congestion, 4 which causes increases greenhouse gas emissions, which 5 causes safety concerns, which causes all kinds of 6 other problems. of other problems.
7 The main point is that the Roberts 8 Bank rail line was developed to facilitate the flow of 9 containers, particularly through highly-urbanized 10 areas, and it anticipated developments such as 11 Terminal 2. That’s why it was done. 12 The container growth will continue to 13 grow, but by investing in these facilities to make the
14 communities livable, they were able to maintain the 15 Roberts Bank Rail Corridor. 16 The South Fraser Perimeter Road is 17 another one that was referred to, I believe, to this 18 morning.
19 South Fraser Perimeter Road is 20 essentially a highway. I was never entirely sure why 21 they called it a road, but it’s a road that runs from
22 Roberts Bank out to the TransCanada highway on the 23 other side of the Port Mann Bridge. And it runs 24 through, as the name implies, the south shore of the 25 Fraser River, along the south shore of the Fraser
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1 River, which is a highly-industrialized area.. And it 2 runs through, as the name implies, the south shore of 3 the Fraser River, along the south shore of the Fraser 4 River, which is a highly-industrialized area. 5 So what it’s done is take the 6 containers that are moved by truck either out of the
7 terminals or into the terminals, GCT in this case, off 8 the arterial roads, through all the communities again 9 of Delta, Surrey, Langley, Fort Langley and so on, and 10 put them on a separate road that runs them straight 11 out to Highway 1 through an industrial area. And most 12 of them are headed out to Highway 1. 13 So these --So these -- I just
14 highlight these because these were -- both Roberts 15 Bank Rail Corridor and South Fraser Perimeter Road 16 were investments that industry and governments made in 17 anticipation of the growing container volumes flowing 18 in and out of the lower mainland and the necessity to
19 do something that allows this to happen in a 20 highly-urbanized area. 21 Sorry. I should have flipped to this
22 one earlier. That’s the one we've discovered.'ve 23 discovered. 24 This figure, you may have seen this 25 before, I don't know, so I won’t -- you’ve seen it?
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1 Okay. Then I’ll just go over it very briefly.so I 2 won’t -- you’ve seen it? Okay. Then I’ll just go 3 over it very briefly. 4 So the three -- it covers from 2000 5 and -– I can't tell from that one up to the current 6 time, 2017-18, so the solid line on the lower left is
7 the actual volumes of container movements that have 8 occurred to date, and then you see three bifurcating 9 lines going out. 10 The lower one is -- these are all 11 forecast. The lower one is the low forecast into 12 2040. The middle one is what they call the base case 13 forecast. You can think of it as most likely. And the
14 upper one is the high base forecast. 15 The dotted red line are the 16 incremental improvements in container capacity or 17 number of containers that could be handled on the 18 coast of B.C. subject to additional container
19 developments occurring. 20 So these are making additional 21 facilities more efficient or putting brand new
22 facilities in place. 23 All of these are not likely to happen, 24 certainly all of them are not approved. You can see 25 the last two are the two phases of Roberts Bank
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1 Terminal 2. 2 The main point is that to meet the 3 base case through 2040, you really need all these to 4 happen. You can see the distance between the base 5 case at the very end of the middle line and the top of 6 the red line is very small.
7 In addition to this, container 8 terminals need to operate at about 85 percent capacity 9 or less to be most efficient. Once they get over 85 10 percent, just like roads -- if you put 100 percent of 11 the capacity on the road, everything slows down. 12 Well, the same thing happens in terminals. 13 That doesn’t seem to want to –- there
14 we go. 15 So I think it’s quite clear that the 16 transportation industry in the lower mainland and the 17 transportation industry, like the national rail 18 operators that serve the lower mainland, have a clear
19 interest in seeing Terminal 2 proceed and that it’s in 20 the best interests of Canada for that to 21 happen.ainland, have a clear interest in seeing
22 Terminal 2 proceed and that it’s in the best interests 23 of Canada for that to happen. 24 I wanted to make a couple of 25 concluding comments, and I want to emphasize these are
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1 my personal observations, my personal experiences, 2 rather than speaking for the Council itself. itself. 3 I’ve been involved in environmental 4 assessments for many years. I was originally a 5 scientist with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, 6 but after that I was head of the Fish Habitat
7 Enhancement Group in the Department of Fisheries and 8 Oceans which are responsible for all the regulatory 9 work around fish habitat, monitoring, regulating and 10 so on. I was also Assistant Commissioner of the 11 Canadian Coast Guard for several years, which is 12 heavily involved in the environmental assessment 13 work.ommissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard for
14 several years, which is heavily involved in the 15 environmental assessment work. 16 In those capacities, I’ve been 17 involved in literally hundreds of environmental 18 assessments, including the third berth, which I’m sure
19 you’ve heard about, that is currently operated by GCT 20 at Deltaport, the inland highway on Vancouver Island, 21 the new convention centre in Vancouver, which
22 overhangs water, so therefore it had to have an 23 environmental –- permits from Fisheries and Oceans, 24 Prosperity Gold, which James Moore again mentioned 25 this morning, which was a huge project that they tried
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1 over several decades to get funded. And in that case, 2 as James pointed out, the federal government just 3 said, ”No, no, and no”, that it was not an acceptable 4 project. 5 The reason I highlight these is, in my 6 personal experience on this coast, the environmental
7 assessment work that the Port has done in conjunction 8 with the academic community and scientists from around 9 the country, around the world, actually, in my 10 experience is the most comprehensive, most rigorous 11 environmental assessment that’s been done of any 12 project in B.C. 13 It started in 2011. It goes through a
14 time series of years, which is very important. Often, 15 we don’t get that time series which you need to get an 16 understanding of variability and the particular thing 17 you’re trying to measure. 18 It goes through 2015. That’s what
19 they based their environmental impact on. Subsequent 20 to that, they’ve continued to do the environmental 21 work.
22 I think it’s in your document 1467, if 23 I recall right. There’s pages and pages and pages and 24 pages of mitigation measures that would be put in 25 place that apply to marine mammals, shellfish,
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1 eelgrass, birds, communities in the area and so on. 2 This again, in my judgment, is an 3 outstanding example of how environmental assessment 4 should be done. 5 The last thing I guess I would like to 6 mention is, I was involved, as I say, in the
7 environmental assessment for third berth. And again, 8 that was a very rigorous assessment. I believe there 9 were 150-odd mitigation measures recommended. 10 They were done and there was a 11 follow-up program over the next four years. And with 12 those measures, the conclusion was that there was no 13 significant environmental impact of third berth, and
14 third berth is in a much more sensitive area 15 biologically than Terminal 2 would be, for example, 16 which is further offshore. 17 So I think I’ll conclude my comments 18 there. Just to reiterate again that those serving the
19 transportation, particularly the movement of goods 20 issues in the lower mainland and nationally, are 21 supportive of the development of Terminal 2.
22 Thank you. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 24 Henderson. We have questions. 25 Dr. Steyn first, please.
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1 MEMBER STEYN: Thank you, Mr. 2 Henderson, for your presentation. 3 I would like to tell you a little bit 4 about some of the presentations we received over the 5 past week or so. 6 A number -- we had presentations from
7 a number of Chambers of Commerce at varying scales 8 Canada-wide, extending down to the local. And 9 particularly at the local scale, we were told that 10 members of those Chambers told their Chambers that 11 congestion is hurting business and they literally used 12 that word, hurting business.hambers told their 13 Chambers that congestion is hurting business and they
14 literally used that word, hurting business. 15 We have also heard from many 16 participants who are of the impression that trucking 17 associated with the Roberts Bank Terminal ports and 18 presumably any additional trucking that might be
19 associated with Terminal 2 would add to the 20 congestion. 21 So since your activities are central
22 to movement of people and goods, do you agree with the 23 perception of the business people, anyhow, that 24 congestion is hurting business? 25 MR. HENDERSON: I can certainly
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1 comment on the front end of that, if I might, which 2 is, is there actually congestion associated with 3 trucking -- increases in trucking. I can only assume 4 that if trucking is occurring along busy business 5 corridors that that would be a detriment to those 6 corridors.
7 Again, I think it was James Moore who 8 made the point this morning that one of the real 9 challenges that we face in the inner harbour -- that’s 10 where Vanterm and Centerm are located, down by Canada 11 Place –- is the movement of containers by truck in and 12 out of Vancouver. 13 They normally go along a street called
14 Knight Street. It’s highly congested, and it’s a real 15 problem. 16 But that’s not really what we’re here 17 to talk about today. We’re here to talk about 18 Terminal 2, the proposed Terminal 2.
19 As I indicated, it used to be a 20 problem before the South Fraser Perimeter Road was put 21 in place. South Fraser Perimeter Road has mitigated a
22 lot of those problems because it’s taken a lot of the 23 container truck movement off what would be considered 24 residential or arterial streets. 25 That’s not to say there isn’t any.
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1 If -- a container may be destined for a place that’s 2 only accessible through an urban area in the lower 3 mainland. I’m sure there are examples of that. 4 But the South Fraser Perimeter Road 5 was put in place largely to remove that heavy 6 industrial traffic off local residential and arterial
7 roads. 8 So the premise about does container 9 truck movements hurt businesses, I would expect the 10 answer subjectively at least, is yes. 11 Is it better or worse? I think it’s 12 certainly better than it was seven or eight years ago. 13 And again, as I say, the South Fraser
14 Perimeter Road was developed in part in anticipation 15 of further developments and further growth in 16 container movements in the Roberts Bank area. 17 MEMBER STEYN: Thank you. That’s very 18 helpful.
19 On your last slide, if I may change 20 topics somewhat, your last bullet says T2 would be 21 developed in a manner that minimizes impact on the
22 natural marine environment and is essential to support 23 the growth. 24 So it implies there that there’s some 25 balance that the Greater Vancouver Gateway Council has
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1 considered and achieved, and of course it doesn’t say 2 that it has zero impact. It says it minimizes the 3 impact. 4 So how does the Gateway Council view 5 this balance? How small must the minimum be –- how 6 small of an impact must the minimum be in order to
7 balance off against the need for supporting growth? 8 MR. HENDERSON: I think you’ll find 9 that anything we do in or around water or anything 10 else will have an impact. To say that there is no 11 impact would not lend credibility to me being here or 12 the Gateway Council. 13 What’s important, though, is where
14 there is an impact, to have it mitigated. So again, 15 in your document 1467, there’s countless examples of 16 how things will be mitigated. 17 If there is a small crab nursery area, 18 for example, immediately underneath where Terminal 2
19 is proposed to be built, there would be an impact if 20 you built Terminal 2 because crabs don’t live in 21 tunnels, generally. But there are options for
22 mitigating that through creation of new crab habitat. 23 The same can be done with fish. We’ve 24 created new fish habitat where existing habitat, for 25 whatever reason, had to be changed.
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1 In terms of -- again, I keep coming 2 back to crab. I could use eelgrass, too. There’s 3 mitigation measures that would see the relocation of 4 eelgrass beds which are important to fish, 5 particularly juvenile fish, see a relocation of 6 existing crab beds.
7 So to say that there’s no impact is 8 not entirely true without indicating that there are 9 ways of mitigating tentative impacts. Again, in my 10 experience and my days with DFO, we generally 11 over-mitigated. 12 In other words, if we removed X amount 13 of productive capacity for juvenile Sockeye in the
14 nursery area of eelgrass beds, we would generally 15 require the proponent to construct or develop new 16 eelgrass beds that were twice the size, reflecting the 17 fact that there’s always some uncertainty about 18 whether the new bed will be as effective as the old
19 bed. 20 But the main point is that mitigation 21 is largely successful if it’s done properly and
22 scientifically. And again, that’s the strength –- I 23 think you’ll probably hear more about this next 24 week -- of the scientific work that the Board has 25 done.
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1 Sorry; that’s a rambling answer to 2 your question. 3 MEMBER STEYN: No, absolutely perfect. 4 Not at all rambling. And thank you. 5 Yes, indeed, the upcoming week we will 6 spend considerable time and discussion on eelgrass,
7 crabs, mitigation measures. So thank you very much. 8 MR. HENDERSON: Thank you.HENDERSON: 9 Thank you. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr. 11 Steyn. 12 I have a further question in terms of 13 effects on, I think –- I can't remember now what page
14 it is. 15 On the second page of your 16 presentation, you say that T2 will provide efficient 17 high-speed connection to the national transportation 18 system or is it the transportation system that you
19 were just talking about. But anyway, it says that to 20 reduce emissions of greenhouse gases. 21 MR. HENDERSON: Yes.
22 THE CHAIRPERSON: So is it your road 23 system, or is it the project? Because the project 24 there's an increase in greenhouse gases. 25 MR. HENDERSON: That requires
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1 explanation. Thank you for raising that. HENDERSON: 2 That requires explanation. Thank you for raising 3 that. 4 If I move first to the Roberts Bank 5 Rail Corridor that I mentioned earlier, and a series 6 of bridges were built along the corridor so traffic
7 could easily flow over the corridor. Prior to that, 8 the road and rail were at grade, so every time a train 9 went through, which was many times a day for many 10 minutes each time, all the traffic on either side 11 stopped. They left their engines running and 12 generated a whole bunch of emissions. 13 That doesn’t happen any more because
14 the grade separations have eliminated the need for 15 cars and trucks to sit at busy intersections for five 16 or seven minutes waiting for a long train to pass. 17 That was the intent there. 18 It should also be pointed out that the
19 rail operators, CN and CP, the two I’m most familiar 20 with, have invested heavily in new engines over recent 21 years that have much lower emissions. So the Roberts
22 Bank Rail Corridor, which is a very busy industrial 23 corridor, has come, over the last few years, to be a 24 relatively low-emission –- I don't like to use the 25 word ”green”, but a greener place to move goods
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1 because of the grade separations for the communities 2 and the measures that the rail operators have taken. 3 I don’t know if that answers your 4 question. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it clarifies 6 that it’s not just the project. I mean, it’s the
7 network system for transportation that you have 8 improved. 9 MR. HENDERSON: Yes, that’s right. 10 And again, I don’t want to go on too long about this, 11 but to me that’s really –- and I don't know if this 12 fits in with your Terms of Reference, but this is 13 really fundamental.
14 You can build the greenest marine 15 container terminal in the world at Roberts Bank -- and 16 you could do that. You could build one that was 100 17 percent electrified, floated on stilts, didn’t affect 18 crabs. But unless you can have some assurance that
19 the corridors, both truck and rail, that serve this 20 facility are also green or are green, relatively, it 21 doesn’t really matter what you do at Roberts Bank.
22 It’s really important that the 23 system -- and when we think of transportation, we 24 don’t usually think of just individual nodes like a 25 marine terminal or an airport; we usually think of the
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1 corridor. And it’s really important that the corridor 2 function well, in this case has low emissions, 3 particularly because it’s, as you’ve heard from 4 residents, going through highly-urbanized areas. 5 So there's a lot -- So there's a 6 lot -- that’s why I put the Roberts Bank Rail Corridor
7 in in this presentation. It’s a good example of how 8 you can let the terminal operate and have the whole 9 corridor relatively clean. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: The rail and road 11 corridors are not part of our mandate, but they’ve 12 been raised on so many occasions when we ask for 13 comments from the public, so it’s an issue that, you
14 know, we have to be sure of what’s happening and what 15 are the possible effects. 16 Another point I’d like to cover is the 17 page where you say, "Why do we need T2 context?". And 18 you have the forecast growth and container numbers
19 with the figures here. 20 And I know the next -- there’s a slide 21 where --
22 MR. HENDERSON: Yes. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- you took the 24 reference from the 2016 ocean shipping consultants. 25 So I want to know if -- when you talk
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1 here of forecast growth, do you refer to the 2 consultant studies or you have, yourself, made some 3 studies? 4 MR. HENDERSON: No. I’m referring to 5 the consultant studies that the Port did. 6 So there’s the consultants that did
7 the primary forecasting that you just referred to, and 8 then there’s InterVISTAS, which are another 9 transportation research company that reviewed these 10 forecasts in the same way that you would review -- 11 scientists would review publications before they 12 proceed. 13 So these have been generated by one
14 expert group, reviewed by a second expert group, and 15 those are the ones I have used. 16 The Gateway Council does not have its 17 own independent estimates of forecast. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was my second
19 question. You’ve just answered. Thank you. 20 Are there any questions from 21 registered participants? Yes, please.
22 MS. S. JONES: Thank you. Susan Jones 23 of the Boundary Bay Conservation Committee. 24 I actually have four questions, but I 25 know you may only allow two, so …
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: I allow two per 2 person, and then you can come back. I just want to 3 make sure everybody gets a chance. 4 MS. S. JONES: Absolutely fair enough. 5 Thank you. I just want to talk to the fact that this 6 is a harmonized environmental assessment. This is a
7 little bit of a preface to my question. So that we’re 8 understanding that I’m asking a question with the 9 understanding that we have an environmental assessment 10 underway and that the Panel, that you represent, you 11 are hired by the federal government, and you will make 12 recommendations to the federal Minister of 13 Environment, but at the same time this is a harmonized
14 process. 15 So we are also undergoing a provincial 16 environmental assessment. And there isn’t someone 17 here from the B.C. Environmental Assessment Office for 18 us to ask questions.
19 I would like to ask a question through 20 you to Mr. Henderson about the provincial process, 21 basically.
22 So the recommendations go to the 23 provincial Minister of Environment from the executive 24 director of the B.C. environmental assessment office. 25 So the greater Vancouver Gateway Council -- I had to
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1 write this out -- is a member of the Gateway 2 Transportation Collaboration Forum which includes the 3 Greater Vancouver Gateway Council, who we’re hearing 4 from today, Transport Canada, Port Metro Vancouver, 5 and the Minister of Transportation and TransLink. 6 The Gateway Transportation
7 Collaboration Forum was formed in 2014 to identify 8 possible projects for funding through the 4 billion 9 national infrastructure fund. I think everybody’s 10 familiar with that. So business and government are 11 working together in this collaboration forum to seek 12 federal funding for identified projects. So that 13 group is all about getting federal funding for
14 projects, and it’s a mixture of government and 15 business. 16 So business and government are working 17 together for funding. So my question now -- sorry 18 about the long intro. Can you explain how information
19 from the Gateway Transportation Collaboration Forum is 20 included in the provincial legal document for this 21 environmental assessment? This is order under section
22 14, which is the trigger for the provincial 23 environmental assessment, and it states: ”The 24 executive director will consider, in the assessment, 25 relevant information created by the Gateway
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1 Transportation Collaboration Forum, to the extent that 2 such information is available.” 3 So I mentioned this just before. I’m 4 perplexed why this government/business funder-seeking 5 thing is included in the legal document for the 6 provincial government? And that’s my question to Mr.
7 Henderson, through you. 8 MR. HENDERSON: Thank you for the 9 question. I’ll make an attempt to respond. 10 Over the years, it’s often raised as 11 an issue about how does the federal and provincial 12 environment assessments work as they both have their 13 own process. Sometimes they’re harmonized; sometimes
14 they’re not. For various reasons. 15 In terms of the Gateway Transportation 16 Collaboration Forum -- so this was an organization 17 formed to identify the next set of infrastructure 18 priorities in the Lower Mainland that are required to
19 facilitate the movement of goods in a highly 20 urbanized area. 21 It was actually about 2 billion that
22 was made available. The Port, private enterprise, 23 railways were all invited to identify key pieces of 24 infrastructure which the current federal minister, 25 Minister Garneau, identified as bottlenecks. So we,
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1 through the GTCF and the Port have done that. We’ve 2 got –- I think they originally identified about 40 3 projects. About 18 have been put forward. Most of 4 them have been funded. 5 These projects at the end of the day 6 are -- a large portion of them are projects that allow
7 a major industrial transportation system to function 8 in highly urbanized areas -- and I'm getting to your 9 question. 10 Pitt Meadows, for example, a small 11 community up the valley, will probably have two grade 12 separations, an overpass and an underpass along the CP 13 Rail tracks, primarily to allow that system, which is
14 very busy, to continue to function in a highly 15 urbanized area. It does provide some efficiency to 16 the city, but that’s not the entire reason. 17 Each of those projects have to go 18 through the whole standard regulatory process. So
19 where there’s a requirement for provincial permits or 20 provincial regulation, that will be done. None of 21 those projects are at this stage. GTCF projects yet.
22 But they will all go through the appropriate 23 provincial and federal processes where permitting is 24 required. 25 MS. S. JONES: That doesn’t answer my
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1 question. And I’m wondering -- I appreciate all these 2 grade separations and things. It’s helped people a 3 lot in Langley and throughout the corridor. 4 My question is: Why is this 5 organization -- you know, the funding, included in the 6 legal document, because it’s unfair to me who has
7 environmental concerns. So the B.C. government is -- 8 the requirement is that they require by law to include 9 that consideration of the information from your 10 organization, which is federal and business together. 11 To me it’s a conflict of interest. But it’s even 12 worse when it’s to do with this environmental impact 13 statement.
14 So I just -- I understand the 15 organization. I have no argument with it. But to 16 have it included in the legal environmental assessment 17 for the provincial environmental assessment is just -- 18 I can't understand it. I think it’s illegal, but I
19 don’t -- 20 Sorry. I shouldn’t go on. 21 MR. HENDERSON: I’ll have to follow up
22 on that one. I’m not sure what the appropriate answer 23 is. I will. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what has 25 happened is the B.C. government wanted us to accept
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1 information that they can use in their evaluation, and 2 that’s probably why there is confusion as to what 3 should be reviewed by us and what should be reviewed 4 by the British Columbia Environmental Assessment 5 office. 6 MS. S. JONES: And I appreciate that.
7 That’s why I asked it of Mr. Henderson because the 8 council is involved in this collaboration forum, so I 9 wondered if he had any information. But that’s fine. 10 Thank you. 11 May I ask my second question? Not so 12 long. 13 If we could see the slide with the
14 members of the Greater Vancouver Gateway Council? So 15 this is who you’re representing today. 16 I went to the website and it shows 17 that your council has four executive members. Two are 18 the Port of Vancouver and one is the president and CEO
19 of the Port, Robin Sylvester. So you have four 20 executives on your council, according to the website. 21 Now, maybe I’m at the wrong site. And it includes the
22 B.C. Trucking Association, which you have listed here. 23 But one of your members is also the B.C. Marine 24 Terminal Operators Association, and I don’t see them 25 on the list here. So I’m a little bit puzzled by this
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1 list. 2 And then you have a list of voting 3 members, and you’ve got some of them on here, but some 4 on this list –- again, the marine terminal operators, 5 UBC, a few other voting members. So I don’t find 6 this list to be maybe totally representative of whom
7 you are representing today. 8 MR. HENDERSON: Thank you for that 9 question. Again, very appropriate question. I will 10 apologize for the website. I’ve been trying for a 11 long time, since I’ve been here, to get that fixed. 12 But it’s not very -- it’s not up-to-date. 13 But you are right. There are four
14 executive members to the Greater Vancouver Gateway 15 Council at the moment. The CEO of the Port is the 16 president/CEO of the airport, Craig Richmond is past 17 president, representative from CN is the treasury and 18 a representative from the B.C. Marine Terminal
19 Operators Association is the vice-president. 20 The council is divided into two 21 groups. There are members who pay dues, who
22 technically can vote, and then there are about 20 23 other members -- we have a total of about 30 members 24 who participate, like UBC, transportation studies 25 from Sauder Institute, who participate but are not
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1 voting members. That’s sort of in the legal minutia. 2 It’s legal minutia in a sense actually important – 3 rarely votes on anything. The strength of the Gateway 4 Council is that it arrives at most of its decisions or 5 positions through consensus, and that was the strength 6 of the previous funding we got through Asia-Pacific
7 Gateway Corridor Initiative, was the ability, in this 8 case, of federal ministers and provincial ministers 9 to talk to industry and get the same priorities in 10 the same order all the time. 11 MS. S. JONES: So do you have the 12 consensus from B.C. operators -- 13 MR. HENDERSON: Okay. That’s my last
14 point. There are two members that are not reflected 15 here. So there’s the B.C. Marine Terminal Operators 16 Association, and the B.C. Marine Employers 17 Association. Those two organizations were originally 18 on this list. They still are active members. But
19 they asked that their names be removed, not because 20 they don’t support Terminal 2 but both independently, 21 for different reasons, are at a very sensitive stage
22 in discussions with third parties about Terminal 2. 23 They also both said, the CEOs of both 24 organizations, Mike Leonard for the Marine Employers 25 Association and Brad Eshleman for the Marine Terminal
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1 Operator Association that they would be more than 2 willing to speak with the Panel if the Panel found 3 that helpful. And that’s the reason it says 4 Vancouver Gateway Council include -- I wasn’t trying 5 to be deceptive, but there are two organizations 6 because of current legal and negotiating issues
7 they’re involved in, asked that their names not appear 8 in this presentation. 9 MS. S. JONES: Thank you. I’ll step 10 aside for other questions. You’re very perceptive. 11 Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we have 13 another participant who wants to ask questions,
14 please? 15 MS. WORLD: My name is Susan, Susan 16 World. So I just understand this presentation on the 17 context from you right now. So I have a question. 18 Because this RBT2 project will be six years long of
19 construction and will dump 3.5 million cubic metres in 20 those stones, gravels, yeah, to make a new artificial 21 island.
22 My question is that, during these six 23 years construction period, and many of the endangered 24 species, such as the whales, the fish, they are dead 25 already. They cannot tolerate. Six years is a long
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1 disturbance. Think about it, you live here, right, 2 and then some people from the sky, okay, come here put 3 a 3.5 million cubic stones, gravels, to our home for 4 six years, how can I survive? I’m dead. So how can 5 you recolate? How can you save them again, after six 6 years, after this RBT2 is built? How and where?
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe this is a 8 question more in terms of environmental assessment. I 9 don’t know if you have some comments? 10 MR. HENDERSON: Yeah, I think this 11 would be a very appropriate question for next week, if 12 I understand your schedule correctly. Because there 13 are some people who’ve actually looked at this.
14 Suffice it to say, that the Port had 15 proposed it would take about five years to fill in the 16 area with sand that had been dredged in the Lower 17 Fraser River, which is a process that occurs all the 18 time, dredging out the lower Fraser. But that doesn’t
19 mean that 12 months a year that this would be 20 happening. 21 In fact, dredging is restricted to a
22 very narrow time window in the Fraser River each year, 23 particularly to protect juvenile fish stocks and in 24 some cases adult fish that are moving up and down the 25 river.
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1 So I do understand your point. But 2 this is not something that would be happening 3 constantly over 12 months a year for six or five years 4 in a row. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So do 6 you still have a question, Mrs. Jones, please? You
7 understand why I have to do a rolloff because you can 8 ask, you know, questions of somebody else. 9 MS. S. JONES: You know what. I’m so 10 grateful you’re allowing questions at all because most 11 public hearings don’t, so I’m very grateful. Trust me 12 on that. I’ll make these ones shorter. 13 If we could see the graph again that
14 you showed in your presentation? The graph that 15 you’ve used comes from the Port, and it shows -- and 16 you talked all about the Greater Vancouver area, but 17 this graph represents Prince Rupert and Vancouver, so 18 it does not give a clear picture of what you are
19 talking about for the Greater Vancouver area. 20 And if I may say, the Panel at some 21 point has said, well, Rupert is very different from
22 Vancouver. It’s like apples and oranges. But I’m 23 saying this is apples and oranges combined together. 24 And the growth rate at Prince Rupert has been 20 25 percent per year recently, and Vancouver, over the
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1 last 10 years, is just over 3 percent. So if you did 2 a graph, Vancouver went like this, a steep climb up to 3 about 2 and 8, and then it sort of flattened out. 4 I think I’m asking you, why wouldn’t 5 you present to the public, because you represent the 6 Greater Vancouver area in a very big way, why wouldn’t
7 we be seeing what it’s like for the Vancouver area and 8 what we could expect in terms of growth and capacity 9 in the Vancouver area because it’s so different the 10 growth in Prince Rupert. 11 MR. HENDERSON: Yeah, that’s a very 12 good point. 13 This is one of the examples, I guess,
14 where sometimes you just can’t win for trying. We 15 have had projections before just for Vancouver, just 16 for the Lower Mainland, and that almost always leads 17 to questions about, well, why don’t you just send it 18 to Prince Rupert? What capacity can Prince Rupert
19 handle? 20 So this graph was meant to include 21 both. And as you point out, there are expansions
22 occurring in Vanterm and Centerm, but there’s also 23 expansions occurring in Fairview, which is Prince 24 Rupert. 25 This does reflect the movement of
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1 containers in and out of B.C. coast, which up until 2 recently has been clearly dominated by Vancouver. 3 Prince Rupert will eventually -- not now -- but 4 eventually handle, I believe, about 2 million 5 containers, which would put, if you take the ultimate 6 projections out to 2040 of 7 to 10 million, would put
7 Vancouver in the range of sort of 5 to 8 million a 8 year, not the 7 to 10. 9 MS. S. JONES: So you’re saying Rupert 10 here is represented as going to 2 million TEUs -- 11 MR. HENDERSON: That’s my 12 understanding. That is supposed to be around 2 or 13 slightly over --
14 MS. S. JONES: They can build to 4 and 15 more, and they’re on the record saying that. 16 MR. HENDERSON: They potentially can. 17 But in terms of projects they have underway, as 18 opposed to sort of longer-term plans, my understanding
19 is it’s about two. 20 MS. S. JONES: I think it’s more than 21 that, but anyway …
22 MR. HENDERSON: In terms of what they 23 plan to do immediately, that’s the case. You may well 24 be right. It may be longer than that. They do have 25 the challenge also that James Moore referred to today,
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1 in that they have one rail operator along a fairly 2 difficult place, in terms of along the Skeena River. 3 That may or may not affect them in the long term. 4 There’s no doubt about it. Prince 5 Rupert sort of came into being when I was in Transport 6 Canada, and when the concept was initially discussed,
7 people thought this was nonsensical, that nobody is 8 going to build a container port in Rupert. Why would 9 anybody do that? And it’s been phenomenal successful 10 in terms of its growth rate. 11 Vancouver, I believe, is projected to 12 projected growing at about, I believe, is it 3 percent 13 a year through 2040. So Vancouver is not going to
14 flatten out. It’s going to continue to grow, which is 15 why we need more capacity down here. 16 But no doubt Rupert has been highly 17 successful. It serves a different market. It’s 18 particularly heavily dominated by the U.S., where
19 Vancouver is dominated primarily by Canadian traffic. 20 MS. S. JONES: Oh, a lot of U.S. too 21 going through here.
22 MR. HENDERSON: Up to about 15 23 percent. If you go up to Rupert, you’ll find it’s 24 well over -- 25 MS. S. JONES: I think it’s more than
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1 15 now according to the -- 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. No 3 debate, please. 4 MR. HENDERSON: Qualitatively, I’ll 5 just leave it, that Vancouver’s port primarily 6 serves, primarily, Canadian traffic; Rupert’s port is
7 destined more to the south, southeast U.S., that’s 8 where it goes; Chicago, Memphis, and south from there. 9 MS. S. JONES: Okay, my next question 10 – I’ll be very fast. 11 MR. HENDERSON: I’ll try to be fast. 12 MS. S. JONES: You mentioned in your 13 presentation that we need industrial land in the Lower
14 Mainland, and T2 would provide industrial land. Are 15 you aware that the Port of Vancouver has a study that 16 says with -- if they build this terminal, they’re 17 going to need another 2500 acres of industrial land. 18 And in that report it says -- into the
19 report, it does not dismiss the fact of using 20 agricultural land reserve lands for that purpose. So 21 you’re saying the Port will produce more industrial
22 land. 23 What I’m reading is with it they’re 24 going to require more, and that would be water -- land 25 created in the water. But they’re going to need
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1 another 2500 acres of land that we don’t have, 2 basically. 3 MR. HENDERSON: The issue of the 4 agricultural land reserve, the council hasn’t actually 5 discussed that in full, and so I’m going to leave that 6 to the Port to respond to. It’s obviously a very
7 sensitive and contentious issue in southwestern B.C. 8 In terms of industrial land, as I 9 think I said earlier, there is no large footprint on 10 the water of industrial land that’s available anymore 11 for container operations. 12 You could go and try, for example, to 13 assemble more industrial land in North Vancouver, it’s
14 on the water. Surrey and Richmond, maybe, although 15 it’s more difficult because you’re more dependent on 16 the river. But there are just -- there’s just not 17 enough industrial-type land available on the water to 18 support a container footprint.
19 There is additional industrial land 20 required for a container operation. There’s a lot of 21 support services that go around sustaining the
22 container operation, in terms of stuffing containers, 23 maintaining containers, security checks, all this 24 other stuff. That doesn’t have to be on the water. 25 In fact, it’s usually not on the water. You know, the
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1 simplest answer is, there just is no more land, of a 2 size required, to support a container port available 3 in the Lower Mainland. 4 MS. S. JONES: That was my question. 5 Because with the port, if they build it in the water, 6 they said they will need upland 2500 acres.
7 MR. HENDERSON: So I guess my point 8 is, if they build it and require 2500 more acres, then 9 that becomes another which issue, which Metro 10 Vancouver and the Port and the various municipalities 11 here are working on right now, is the availability of 12 industrial land in the Lower Mainland. It’s not zero, 13 but it’s really close to zero. And it’s sort of
14 sprinkled around the Lower Mainland in little pockets, 15 some of which are not very useful for industrial land. 16 So you’ve highlighted one of the 17 greatest single challenges that the transportation 18 and certainly the Port industries face in the Lower
19 Mainland, and that’s the lack of industrial land, and 20 that’s primarily why -- one of the main reasons why T2 21 has been proposed as it is.
22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Stewart, do you 23 have any questions to the presenter? 24 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Madam Chair. 25 No, I don’t have any questions for Mr. Henderson. I
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1 was just echo my previous comments, to thank him for 2 coming out on a sunny Saturday of a long weekend to 3 present to the Panel. Thank you for that. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 5 for your participation. Much appreciated. 6 MR. HENDERSON: Thank you to all of
7 you for the opportunity. I appreciate it. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I would 9 now call Mrs. Susan World for her presentation, 10 please. 11 MS. WORLD: Okay. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: So please go ahead 13 when you’re ready.
14 PRESENTATION 15 MS. WORLD: One moment. Okay. My 16 name is Susan, Susan World. I came from Asia, China, 17 and I used to be a expert environmental engineer for 18 doing the environmental impact assessment and the
19 regional planning, and I have conducted about 30 20 projects, though without any technical programs. 21 For me, you know, I’m very shocked to
22 see that this project has such obvious wrongs, that is 23 why I cannot be silent again, even though my life, you 24 know, is very tough, like the normal life in 25 Vancouver. Everything is very expensive. Think about
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1 that. A meal is over $10. And we are not able to buy 2 together cheaper fish. In No Frills, you know, and 3 Shoppers Drug Mart, these kind of big supermarkets 4 anymore in the past because the Fraser River ecosystem 5 has been broken for many years. Yeah. That’s life. 6 That is why the many low income people
7 that are living in these Fraser River catchment, 8 including myself, including my family, my friends, 9 co-workers, you know, I think is a professional 10 awareness. I’m a Canadian, I have to come. I have to 11 do something. 12 At the same time, you know, for the 13 proponent, yes, he’s very big. My presentation has
14 three parts and two maps. I got that from the Metro 15 Vancouver website, and then, you see, this map shows 16 this Port is very big. It handles 200 billions per 17 year. It is very big. Compared to -- we’re human 18 beings, and this Port, its proponent is the – it’s in
19 the higher level of 2 percent reaches the successful 20 and the powerful. 21 So compared to us. Think about all
22 the 3.6 billion -- millions, the migratory birds who 23 rely on this Fraser River mouth and delta is trying to 24 survive. And think about, we only have 46 numbers of 25 the whales. And think about -- we cannot calculate,
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1 you know, the migratory fish, such as salmon and fish. 2 Why? We, you know, we a lot of land, 3 350 kilometres along the West Coast. You know, why we 4 destroy this small area for this RBT2 site, which is 5 very sensitive, which is inside the intertidal zone? 6 Why? They’re almost dead. Which means -- if we do
7 not put any pressure on them. Just let them be there. 8 They are very hardly to survive, because there are 9 other human activities, such as, you know, 10 hundreds,thousands, millions of people, they come from 11 here, from all over the world. When you walk on 12 the street, you ask, where are you from? They’re 13 from Brazil. They’re from Japan. They’re from
14 Europe. About 30 percent of the people, they are 15 visitors. Why do you come here? I come here because 16 I like the weather. I like the environment. I like 17 the green trees, the ocean, and the mountains. 18 That’s why we come here. To think about – the RBT2 is
19 only one out of about 100 human activities, okay, in 20 this area. It’s really not worth, it’s really not 21 right to destroy all of them, and there are other
22 industries such as eco tourism. 23 Yeah, eco tourism, you know, the 24 people come here on vacation, they contribute billions 25 of dollars. Yeah, that’s big number. They also
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1 support the many people’s jobs, you know? The same 2 thing. The same idea. 3 So I think about, we should have the 4 economy and the environment, have a balance with the 5 environment. That’s why I come here. I have done a 6 little bit furthermore research, much more beyond my,
7 you know, method, and I’m totally volunteer. So my 8 presentation has three parts. 9 The introduction is that the 10 conclusions of the environmental impact statement, 11 which is EIS, and environmental assessment. Their 12 conclusions are not accepted and are wrong, from all 13 the wildlife -- there are about 700,000 people who are
14 living in this catchment, not including Vancouver 15 people, not including North Vancouver people, are 16 wrong, are not accepted, because the conclusion said 17 there is no significant adverse environment efforts of 18 this RBT2 project, the environment. They’re totally
19 wrong, okay? 20 When I read this, I’m really shocked. 21 In other words, if I’m in charge of this project, like
22 the previous 30 projects I have done, this project has 23 been stopped a long time ago, three or five years ago. 24 It doesn’t make sense to waste six years. I know the 25 proponent also very frustrated, very angry. Yeah, you
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1 see, we hear about that. 2 All the economies, all the businesses 3 say, you know, the government doesn’t approve these 4 projects. Always no, no, no. They’re also very 5 angry, yeah. So we are in the same boat. 6 That is why, you know, my -- I have
7 thought about and have some recommendations to solve 8 this problem. Yes. 9 So the first part of my presentation 10 is that there are some reasons, so why people oppose 11 so seriously. Okay? Why this project is not 12 feasible, acceptable, in terms from of the 13 environmental and the ecological views. There are
14 seven -- seven reasons. Seven. Okay. 15 So the first part is that because this 16 site or location of the proposed RBT2 is right at 17 the -- and we think the province of British Columbia, 18 and the Canadian federal government, wildlife
19 management areas. Yes. So therefore, this site is 20 nearby shallow ocean and the intertidal marsh area, 21 from south to north, you know, that’s Boundary Bay
22 wildlife management areas, Sturgeon Bank. 23 The second is Roberts Bank. Roberts 24 Bank Wildlife Management Areas, and a little bit 25 further down there’s Sturgeon Bank, which is right at
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1 the north arm of the Fraser River comes to sea. And 2 we go along the Georgia Strait and then we go to -- 3 okay, the next map, please? We go to Burrard Inlet. 4 Yes. So from here – wow, how can I see that? Yeah, 5 yeah. 6 So here is Burrard Inlet. Going down
7 a little bit. Yes. Burrard Inlet is divided by the 8 south side, which is located at the Vancouver side, 9 belong to Vancouver city, and the north side belongs 10 to North Vancouver. 11 There are 28 existing big terminals 12 already being here since 1995 -- sorry, my mistake. 13 1915. Since 1915 to now. It’s about 100 years. So
14 this area has been extensively overexploited and 15 destroyed, almost destroyed by human beings’ 16 activities, especially the 17 Metro -- Greater Vancouver Port. You see, these 18 terminals, the majority of them, they are very big.
19 Yeah. 20 So I have -- that is why this RBT2 21 site is just within the intertidal zone of the Fraser
22 River. It’s not allowed to have RBT2 and any other 23 big human being activities. For the sake of, you 24 know, the whales. They are almost extinct, which 25 means their population -- there are only 48 of them.
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1 They have been migrating from the Pacific ocean to 2 here. You think about it. There are only 48 of 3 them. How many human beings do we have? In Greater 4 Vancouver we have around 2.5 million and 3 million. 5 So for the other, you know, migratory 6 birds, they rely on this site to get food, you know,
7 to have babies, before they fly, go to Alaska. 8 There’s about a 1,000-kilometre flight without any 9 stopover place for them to get food, get rest. You 10 think about that. How important the RBT2 site is, and 11 how it is very crucial habitat for these wonderful 12 creators. 13 So from the people, we have opposed
14 this project and other projects. Seriously. In other 15 words, it sounds like the government, especially the 16 provincial government, would have failed their 17 responsibility to protect these world-wide crucial 18 habitats and then lately it happens to so many of
19 them. 20 So the second reason is the proponent 21 doesn’t need to spend 3 billions investment and 3.5
22 million cubic metres rock and gravel, and spend six 23 years -- six years, very long, to build the new RBT2 24 terminal. Actually it is an artificial island. It’s 25 an artificial island. It sounds like we are here,
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1 okay? We’re having a meeting. Normally we have a 2 our normal life, but some very powerful people, sky 3 people here they come down to our home, destroy 4 everything for six years. 5 So it is impossible for anyone to 6 relocate the other place to revive our lives. No,
7 it’s impossible. Okay. 8 The third point, the third reason why 9 RBT2 has to be, you know, denied by both the 10 provincial and the federal government, is that the 11 cumulative adverse effects from all human beings are 12 not addressed fully, yeah, in all the documents. 13 Yeah. It’s not addressed fully, such as, you know,
14 one of the terminal operator whose name is Kinder 15 Morgan, he want the government to approve the Kinder 16 Morgan pipeline expansion from 300,000 metric tonnes a 17 day, I think, to triple the ability, to be 900,000 18 metric tonnes a day, which is 10 percent of the whole
19 oil imported for China from our world. 20 It is approved by the National Energy 21 Board some years ago, three or four or five years ago.
22 But all the people stand up and fight. Five 23 professors of SFU and opposition leaders, Green Party 24 leader, Elizabeth May, and Philip Stewart, right, 25 Grand Chief of First Nations and David Suzuki, and the
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1 age from 14 years old, elementary school students, to 2 84-year-old mom. All the people gather in the Burnaby 3 Mountain to protest, but the government just decide 4 the police come, arrest them all. You think for 17 5 times, that’s a lot. 6 Eventually, you know, the Kinder
7 Morgan pipeline has win this case from the court, but 8 they give up because they know it’s totally against 9 the people winning. Even though I’m very rich 10 already, I’m a billionare and I make a lot of billion 11 or two or 20 billions against the people’s will, they 12 withdraw this case. 13 So I think, I would really suggest
14 RBT2 also be humble, respect people’s will, okay, and 15 respect Mother Nature, the Fraser River and the 16 Georgia Strait and Burrard Inlet. They are a special 17 blessing from God to us free, no charge. 18 Everybody, especially the whales, you
19 know, the birds, the fish, they have a right to live 20 there. We cannot destroy them. We cannot revive 21 their lives from the future.
22 The first reason for this project has 23 to be, I want to say, stopped here, is that they’re 24 not, a little bit not accurate data, such as the 25 average size of the vessels given by the proponent
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1 from February to March 2019 submission, including this 2 gentleman’s submission just right now, needs to be a 3 little bit more, you know, accurate and lower, 4 actually. 5 The majority of vessels coming to the 6 proponent will be in the range of six five hundred to
7 9,500 TEU, not 18,000 to 12,000 TEU, based on the 12 8 years consistent vessel data from the RBT1 or 9 Deltaport terminal. The data is from 1998 to 2011. 10 I think it is more reliable. 11 The fifth reason is, you know, the 12 number of jobs, the new RBT2 terminal will create is 13 4,400, it’s around half of its predicted number of
14 9,900. According to the Deltaport whose ability is 15 1.8 million annual container capacity and it only 16 creates 3,300 jobs, according to that rate. So we can 17 calculate -- use simple math, you know? 18 Therefore, other economic, social,
19 taxes, revenues, income, jobs, these kind of economic 20 factors regenerated from RBT2, needs to be 21 recalculated and adjusted to the new situation. I
22 would suggest just about half lower than the data, the 23 value of that, which was predicted in 2013. 24 Because there are many international 25 tensions between Canada and the United States and
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1 between China, between Japan, you know, there’s a 2 global recession of the economy. We need to think 3 about that, okay. Also, we want to improve the 4 economy. We want to build that, but we have to be 5 realistic. 6 So the sixth reason is that our people
7 do believe the existing 28 to around 35, the proponent 8 owned and managed terminals. Just need a little bit, 9 merge or convert or change [indiscernible] help each 10 other to discuss with each other. 11 And it’s very easy to get the 12 additional annual 2.4 million, even 4 million, even 10 13 million container capacity. Easily. Because 28 of
14 them are here. Twenty-eight. Some of them are empty. 15 Not doing anything. Some of them are rented or sold 16 to commercial use, whatever. 17 The seventh reason for this project 18 has to be stopped right now is the law. It doesn’t
19 align with all the following 9 environmental and 20 ecological protection acts. 21 The first one is Fisheries Act,
22 subsection 35(2)(6) and subsection 32. 23 The gentleman talk about relocation, 24 you know, the damage to habitat and other places, 25 especially from here. The second law is Canadian
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1 Environmental Impact Act, 1999, part 7, division 7, 2 which means the proponent didn’t give enough 3 alternative ways to think about another better way for 4 this project. 5 And the third law is Canadian 6 Environmental Impact Act, 2012. This one is better
7 than the previous one. But the Bill C-69, which will 8 become the new Canadian Environmental Impact Act 2019 9 very soon, is in reading by the -- yeah, by the 10 parliament. 11 It is promoted by the Minister of 12 Environment Canada for the sake, the interests of all 13 of us Canadians. And the fifth law is Species at Risk
14 Act which is section 17(3) subsection(1). The next 15 one is Navigable Waters Protection Act, section 5. 16 The next one is Aquatic Species Act or aquatic species 17 in subsection 2 of the Species at Risk Act. The next 18 one is Ramsar Convention, which is international
19 treaty for the conservation and the sustainable 20 utilization of wetlands, eco tourists, watching birds, 21 watching whales, these kind of -- and relax for the
22 urban people. 23 It’s Canadian –- yeah, Canada is one 24 of these countries. We have signed these treaties 25 already, so we have to fulfil our responsibility to
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1 protect the land. 2 The next one is Migratory Birds Act 3 subsection 2 of the Migratory Birds Convention Act 4 1994. 5 Anyway, the conclusion of my 6 presentation of part 1 is, please keep in mind that
7 the Fraser River and its mouth and Delta estuary is 8 one of the most productive ecosystems to produce fish, 9 crab, whale watching, bird watching, and wildlife 10 navigation and transportation. And has been 11 attracting hundreds of millions of people from British 12 Columbia, the other areas of Canada, and the whole 13 world to spend their vacation and even buy homes here,
14 settle down here, because it’s in the environment. 15 That is why it's our job, for all of 16 us in the room, okay, we’re very lucky we can be here. 17 Think about the other people. They have to work very 18 hard, low income people, senior people, disability
19 people -- even they work very hard. They cannot make 20 a living. Everything in Vancouver is extremely 21 expensive.
22 So we can protect this precious river 23 and mouh of the delta, small amount of area, and let 24 it continue in providing healthy and the food for all 25 of us, for our great grandchildren. Seven
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1 generations. Yeah, for the future. We can do that 2 together. 3 Part 2 is -- there’s a small 4 introduction of the existing 28 to 35 deep sea, deep 5 sea. The proponent owned and managed terminals. 6 There are many better alternative options from -- to
7 take in place these new RBT2 project. It just needs a 8 little bit of work -- work together. So from -- 9 according to the Metro Vancouver website, the 10 proponent has divided all the existing terminals into 11 five categories, five categories. 12 The first one is automobile terminals. 13 Autombile terminals, it has two. It imports the cars
14 from Japan, from Korea, from other countries, such as 15 the number 24 is here. Yes. Let me see. The Annacis 16 Island. 17 Sorry, down here. I’ll go down. 18 They’re here.
19 They’re located -- there are two big 20 terminals which major import, not export. Remember 21 that, okay, import the automobile –- cars.
22 The first one is -- they are located 23 inside the Annacis Island inside the Fraser River. 24 Anyway, one of them has ability of import three 25 million car equivalent units each year. They have
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1 real, real big giant, you know, Panama size, the 2 vessels coming into the Fraser River, which means 3 Fraser River is deep enough to accommodate the Panama 4 size big vessels of containers -- container ships. 5 Yeah. 6 But these operator is from northern
7 Europe, yeah. I think, you know, it has invested a 8 lot of money to improve. It’s one of the biggest -- 9 the largest operators of all, especially for the 10 automobile, the business. That is why if the 11 proponent be humble, you know, just talk with him, two 12 of them are there. 13 And you say, okay, you have so much,
14 ou know, space, right, and then how about, you know, 15 you just let us use some space and then build 2.4 16 million TEU. It’s very likely. Yeah. So it’s very 17 easy, just one of the 28 or 35 terminals. 18 The second function terminals is bank
19 terminal. There are 24. There are about 24 bank 20 terminals. You can see that. I have list them into a 21 table. Can we go to the table? Yes.
22 Yeah. By the way, the automobile 23 business only takes about eight percent of the whole 24 business for the proponent. Sometimes, you know, when 25 we are very rich, you know, we forget. You know,
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1 there are some basic effects, yeah. Sometimes it 2 happens, right? Yes. That is why all the people are 3 come to help, not against the proponent, okay. 4 The bank terminal, there are about 24 5 bank terminals owned and managed by the MVP. They are 6 number 4, alliance green terminal, which is built
7 since 1950. 8 This is the largest Canada’s green 9 handle business, agriculture, because, you know, the 10 wars between China and Canada, you know, Canada has 11 lost 2.7 billion something export of agriculture to 12 China. 13 You know, that’s a kind of revenge.
14 We shouldn’t suffer that, but in reality, it’s there. 15 So this terminal would have -- you 16 know, you don’t have much business, right. And how 17 about you just change, you know, to be more business 18 like container terminal. Why not, right?
19 I think the proponent knows that. 20 They’re running these 28 to 35 terminals for so many 21 years, right, 100 years. They know that.
22 That is why build a new RBT2 is one of 23 the two major projects proposed directly by the 24 proponent. Not from the operators. No. 25 The other one is -- the other major
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1 project proposed by the proponent is Deltaport 2 Perimeter Rail and Road Improvement Project. Yeah. 3 That's -- you know, attracted quite a lot, millions, 4 billions of money from the previous Christy Clark 5 government who used to be a Premier. I know that. 6 Other people know that.
7 That project is approved already in 8 2016. So Deltaport is near the West Shore coal port. 9 Yeah. They have the ability to add another 2.4 10 million TEUs annually. Yeah, it is possible. 11 So anyway, there are 24 of these bank 12 terminals. There are Cargill. 13 Most of them are around Burrard Inlet
14 in the south side and the north side. Among them, you 15 know, we have to think about we can –- these terminals 16 handles -- some of them handle very dangerous 17 petroleum products such as Kinder Morgan Pipeline and 18 Trans Mountain Pipeline. They’re owned by the United
19 States, not by the Canadians. 20 That is why, you know, the majority of 21 the jobs were created would goes to the management,
22 the high-paid jobs go to the American jobs, not 23 Canadians, not the local poor peoples, okay. That is 24 not right, not fair. 25 There are -- yes. So I would think,
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1 you know, the number 19, Neptune Bulk Terminal, yeah, 2 which is, you know -- has a similar business which 3 handle the coal and potash for export and import, 4 phosphorus rock. 5 This -- anyway, they’re big volume, 6 big volume. These kind of products need big volume.
7 And the forest, you know, the lumber, 8 you know, the trees, wood pulp, these kind of forest 9 products and agriculture products and the steel and 10 the, you know, cargo on rural roads, they need big 11 space. But because, you know, the decrease in demand 12 from the international government, their businesses 13 are shrinking, are decreasing.
14 On the other hand, the demand from the 15 market for the container terminals and container 16 business are increasing. Why not adjust them to feed 17 the new trade situation? Yeah, why not? 18 They can be discussed, yeah, because
19 the proponent is the landlord, is the owner. Yeah. 20 And they are operators. They sign the contracts, 21 about 10 years to 40 years contracts with the owner.
22 Actually, you know, all the people, 23 all of us, all Canadians, are owners as well because 24 that’s Crown land. Everybody should have a share. 25 Yeah.
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1 From this very brief, you know, and 2 then we go to my third part of the presentation, which 3 is Part 3, "Some recommendations about better 4 alternative options to help the proponent NOT spend 6 5 years and 3 billions hard-working taxes". 6 You know, frustrations, you get anger
7 from the people, from the federal government, from 8 provincial government, Environment Canada, to try to 9 obtain additional annual 1.6 to 2.4 to 4.8, even 10 10 million TEU container capacity are as follows. 11 This I think, you know, they should 12 have some value to guide this project to have a 13 balanced economy and the environment. Make everybody
14 happy, yeah. 15 And the first one is -– the first 16 suggestion is restore ceased or sold to commercial 17 terminal without any consent by people. People never 18 know.
19 Some of the management of the 20 proponent I don’t think that you know such as the 21 number 26, Fraser Wharves, which is located right at
22 the Fraser River to the sea, at Richmond. 23 So it previous name is Richmond 24 Automobile Terminal, and it is still running by the 25 same name of Fraser Wharves Limited, whose President
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1 and CEO is Japanese-named gentleman. 2 Yeah. So from the website, you know, 3 these terminals you said is ceased operation at the 4 end of 2014 permanently, forever. Why? 5 I go to the Google Map, have a look. 6 Its size is good. It’s big. It’s about two to five
7 bigger size than RBT1 and RBT2. And then why it -- 8 did it sold out to another commercial operator 9 permanently? Whym right? 10 Can we take it back to, you know, let 11 it be used to add these -– you know, to feed the 12 container terminal requirement and market demand in 13 the future? Is this possible? Yeah.
14 This is one terminal. The other one 15 is number 29. Number 29, Ballagns Cruise Terminal, 16 which is located at Clark Street, Vancouver, south 17 shore of the Burrard Inlet. It's right beside the 18 Second Narrows bridge and Highway Number 1.
19 So these terminal was terminated 20 because there’s not enough cruise clients from -- 21 shared from the number one, Canada Place.
22 Canada Place is the number one cruise 23 terminal. I think you have been there; right? 24 Everybody goes there. It’s a symbolic building for 25 Vancouver and British Columbia.
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1 The second, you know, the number 29, 2 Ballagns Cruise Terminal, is supposed -- is built by 3 the 1995 or something as an alternative option in 4 case, you know, Canada Place has too many clients. We 5 cannot -- it’s beyond our ability to handle and then 6 all the people go there.
7 But unfortunately, you know, it 8 doesn’t work. We don't have -- it seems like there’s 9 not so many people take the cruise. That is the 10 reason why this number 29, Ballagns Cruise Terminal, 11 is there and pretty well doing nothing for quite a 12 long time, 10 years, something. 13 So is it possible -- or people ask, is
14 it possible we use that? You know, cruise terminal 15 are the same. Terminal is terminal. Just like a man 16 is a man, woman is a woman, right? 17 And it’s deep sea. Deep sea, which 18 means, you know, even the biggest Panama size and the
19 post-Panama size big vessels can come through the 20 First Narrows Bridge or is -- another name is Lions 21 Gate. Come through inside to this number 29 Ballagns
22 Cruise Terminal. Yeah. 23 There's -- 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have to interrupt 25 you because we usually give 20 minutes to people and,
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1 you know, I have allowed people to go to 30 minutes, 2 and I think we’ve exceeded that now with your 3 presentation. 4 So if you could summarize possibly one 5 or two of your recommendations, please? 6 MS. WORLD: Yes, okay. Please go to
7 read through the other –- so there are seven or –- 8 yes. 9 I can -- thank you so much, yes. 10 Given more time -- 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have all your 12 recommendations here. So if you could just present 13 one or two that you feel --
14 MS. WORLD: Recommendations? 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you have 12 16 recommendations and we’re still on number one. 17 MS. WORLD: Okay. The number third 18 recommendation is we can merge number 28, the coal
19 from the Western Shore coal terminal, remove -- move 20 the coal to the number 19, Neptune Coal Terminal, 21 because they have the same. They have the coast.
22 And the Neptune, number 19 -- Neptune 23 Coal Terminal should have enough space from the Google 24 Map. Everybody can go there, right? Have a look. 25 It’s very big. All of them are very big.
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1 So as a conclusion of my presentation, 2 I have a few little points. 3 First of all, these RBT2 project, 4 everybody is very tired of that. It should stop right 5 now, okay. We can’t afford. Even one day people 6 protest, one day, the police cast to arrest people,
7 there’s one million. One day. 8 Think about it. One time protest is 9 five days or 10 days. It has been 17 times just for 10 one project is approved. 11 And the second point is that there are 12 alternative or better solutions for taking -- take 13 place the RBT2 Project to exist. Just, you know, do a
14 little bit paperwork, coordination work, you know, 15 nice work, talk with the operators. Yeah. 16 Organize them as brothers and sisters. 17 Oh, yes. The third point -- I forgot. 18 The third recommendation is that Deltaport or GCT,
19 Global Container Terminal -- GCT actually is running 20 two terminals, Deltaport 1 container terminal and 21 Vanterm.
22 Vanterm itself, it has nearly three 23 millions container capacity already plus, you know, 24 1.8 millions from the Deltaport originally designed 25 and 600,000 TEU per year after the Deltaport perimeter
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1 and railway improvement has done, 2016 to 2010. 2 GCT, one operator, has already had 3 enough container ability to handle this increase, not 4 mentioning the others. 5 So that’s my presentation. Thank you 6 very much.
7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. 8 World. 9 Now, if you allow me, I’d like to ask 10 a question of the proponent. 11 MS. WORLD: Yes, of course. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it’s from your 13 presentation, page 2, number 4, you say here that the
14 majority of vessels coming to metro Vancouver would be 15 in the range of 6,500 to 9,500 TEUs, not 18 to 12 16 thousand TEUs based on 12 years consistent vessel 17 data. 18 And I believe –- I can't remember if
19 it was in the Undertaking Number 2 from the January 20 session or the first document that you sent as a 21 commitment to go ahead with public hearing, but I
22 would like the proponent to clarify properly the 23 average size vessels and the movements that are coming 24 and going to the Port, the proposed Port, please. 25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Madam Chair,
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1 for that question. 2 If you could just give us a moment to 3 pull up the correct documents. 4 --- Pause 5 MR. STEWART: Madam Chair, if you'd 6 just give us a moment while they pull that up. If you
7 had anything else for me -- 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, that's okay. I 9 will wait. 10 MR. STEWART: Okay. So you're correct 11 that the document in question was Undertaking Number 2 12 from January 30th. And looking at page 7, Figures 3 13 and 4, this is projected 2035.
14 And it's anticipated that there would 15 be one small service from the Australia New Zealand 16 area, which would be a very small vessel, likely, in 17 the thousand to 25 range in either case. And with or 18 without the project, one vessel in the four to six
19 thousand range, with or without the project. 20 And this is throughout the Port of 21 Vancouver. I'm not defining where specifically.
22 So one in the four to six range, two 23 in the six to nine range and then, with the project, 24 five in the nine to twelve, seven range, four in the 25 13 to 15 range, and two in the 15 to 18 range.
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1 So the differences of the with and 2 without are all in the last three categories. So 3 without the project it'd be seven in the nine to 4 twelve, seven range, and then four larger ones. And 5 with the project, there would be two that would move 6 out of the nine to seven range. One of them would
7 move up one category and one of them would move up two 8 categories. 9 So basically, two ships would be in a 10 larger -- in a larger range with the project than 11 without the project. And that's the only difference. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the main 13 average -- the main, what do you call, size of the
14 ships, if I remember well, but that's a long time ago, 15 I think it was at the orientation session in September 16 of 2016. You had mentioned that 65 percent would 17 still be between the 9,000 and the 15,000. 18 MR. STEWART: Yes. And I think that
19 generally that's still correct. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's still 21 correct.
22 MR. STEWART: Yeah, given the size 23 ranges. 24 I would also point the Panel to 25 registry document number 1473. Oh, that is the number
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1 for this one. Sorry. This is 1473 that we're looking 2 at. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 4 MR. STEWART: So yes, thank you. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are there any 6 questions from participants to the presenter?
7 Any questions from Vancouver Fraser 8 Port Authority? 9 MR. STEWART: No, Madam Chair. Thank 10 you for that. 11 I would just like to thank Mrs. World 12 for the work she has done and for sharing that with us 13 today. I appreciate the efforts.
14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 15 So I believe now we are coming to your 16 closing statement, please. if you have any. 17 CLOSING STATEMENT 18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Madam Chair
19 and Panel members. I'll keep my closing remarks brief 20 given that we are -- I am standing between the Panel 21 and the long weekend.
22 I'd certainly like to thank everyone 23 who's participated in the hearing sessions over the 24 past few days. 25 Through the four general sessions to
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1 date, we've heard from people who have spent a lot of 2 time and effort reviewing the EIS, the marine shipping 3 assessment and other documents. However, some of 4 these presentations have included statements that are 5 inconsistent with the information that we have 6 submitted to the Panel registry.
7 While we've taken the opportunity to 8 address some of these factual discrepancies through 9 our responses to questions and closing statements, 10 there are also many that we have not in the interests 11 of time and to avoid repetition. 12 We will be addressing more of these 13 misunderstandings during the topic-specific sessions
14 that start next week. And during the topic-specific 15 sessions, our experts will share the robust findings 16 of their studies and assessment work and answer 17 questions from the Panel and, at the Panel's 18 discretion, from indigenous groups, registered parties
19 and others. 20 This will ensure that the Panel has 21 the information it needs to develop its report.
22 And I would just like to say, on 23 behalf of myself and the team that are supporting me 24 here, our thanks to you for the process that has 25 allowed the public this important opportunity to speak
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1 to the project and to question us. And it's not 2 always comfortable, but it's important and we 3 appreciate how the Panel has handled that. And once 4 again, to say thank to you the public for their 5 participation. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
7 Mr. Stewart. 8 So public hearing is an important step 9 in the Panel's mandate to collect information from 10 people, from the general public. 11 It gives us a privilege to hear from 12 potentially affected citizens, to have their views, to 13 have also their community knowledge, we call. I mean,
14 we're always talking about Aboriginal traditional 15 knowledge, but I believe also in community knowledge. 16 And it gives also the context and what's at stake. 17 These are all elements that you can't get on paper, 18 and so I think it was very important that we talked
19 with you. 20 We appreciate all the work you have 21 done to present to us, and next week is going to be a
22 different part of the hearing because it will be 23 technical, scientific with experts that are coming to 24 us. 25 So I'd like to thank you in my name
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1 and the name of my colleagues, to all, the 2 participants and the proponent, for your 3 participation, for your collaboration, and we'll see 4 you here in this room next Tuesday at 9:00. 5 Have a nice weekend. Thank you. 6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1514, to resume
7 on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 at 0900 / L'audience 8 est ajournée à 1514 pour reprendre le mardi 9 21 mai 2019 à 0900 10 11 12 CERTIFICATION 13
14 WE HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing has been reported 15 and transcribed to the best of our skill and ability 16 17 18
19 ______20 Kristin Johansson Jackie Clark 21
22 23 24 ______25 Brian Denton Deana Johansson
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