Volume 126, No. 16 ISSN 1742-2256

T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N (HANSARD)

Douglas, Tuesday, 19th May 2009

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, . © Court of Tynwald, 2009 Printed by The Copy Shop Limited, 48 Bucks Road, Douglas, Isle of Man Price Band J 928 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009

Present:

The President of Tynwald (The Hon. N Q Cringle, OBE)

In the Council: The Attorney General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Mr D Butt, Mr D A Callister, Mrs C M Christian, Mr E A Crowe, Mr A F Downie, Mr E G Lowey, Mr J R Turner and Mr G H Waft, with Mr J King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (); The Chief Minister (The Hon. J A Brown) (Castletown); Hon. D M Anderson (); Hon. A V Craine and Hon. A R Bell (Ramsey); Hon. W E Teare (); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Mr T Crookall (Peel); Mr P Karran, Hon. A J Earnshaw and Mr D J Quirk (); Hon. G M Quayle (); Mr R W Henderson and Mr J R Houghton (Douglas North); Hon. D C Cretney and Mr W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Mr C G Corkish MBE and Hon. J P Shimmin (Douglas West); Mr G D Cregeen ( and ); Mr J P Watterson, Hon. P A Gawne and Mr Q B Gill (); with Mr R Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 929 T126

Business Transacted Page

Leave of absence granted ...... 931 Bill for signature – Tree Preservation (Amendment) Bill ...... 931 Papers laid before the Court ...... 931

Questions for Oral Answer 1. Unemployment – Combating rise ...... 932 2. Financial Supervision Commission – Audit of salaries, accounts and budgets ...... 932 3. FSC Chief Executive’s salary – Appropriate amount ...... 934 4. Second casino licence – Council of Ministers’ policy ...... 935 5. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander – E-mails to depositors and Early Payment Scheme addresses ...... 936 6. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander UK – Significant payments to a certain depositor ...... 936 7. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander – Extension of UK Government’s guarantee to depositors ...... 936 8. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander UK – House of Commons Treasury Select Committee Report ...... 937 9. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) – Proxy forms for vote on Scheme of Arrangement ...... 938 10. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) – Seeking assistance from UK ...... 939

Welcome to Mr Pickavance, President of the Chartered Institute of Building International ...... 939

11. Public sector pensions – Including pension contributions in departmental accounts ...... 939 12. OECD White List jurisdictions – Number of tax agreements signed ...... 941 13. Isle of Man College – Statement on master plan ...... 942 14. Highly paid, suspended person in DoE – Immediate resolution to situation ...... 944 15. Possible pandemic flu outbreak – DHSS arrangements ...... 945 16. DHSS consultation paper – Helping the vulnerable ...... 945 17. Dental service – Cancelled appointments; action to improve ...... 946 18. Drug and Alcohol Strategy – Breakdown of expenditure since 2000 ...... 948 19. Old prison – Plans for use ...... 949 20. Work Permit Committee – Permits for brick/blocklayers ...... 952 21. VENDA – Contract and financial benefit for Island ...... 953 22. VENDA – Selection without approved tender process ...... 956 23. TT practice and race weeks – Smooth traffic flow at rush hours ...... 959 24. Rio Convention on Biodiversity – Statement ...... 960 25. Voluntary tips in restaurants – Legal obligations of managers towards staff ...... 961

Questions for Written Answer 26. Financial Supervision Commission – Monitoring use of public money ...... 962 27. Financial Supervision Commission – Source of funding; staff salaries ...... 962 28. FSC Chief Executive – Source of funding for salary and bonuses ...... 962 29. Public service pension review – Assurance to those currently in receipt ...... 962 30. Anglo-Manx Parliamentary Group, Westminster – Briefing papers re Isle of Man ...... 962 31. Code of practice on access to Government information – Disclosure of information in Commissioner’s ruling ....964 32. Noble’s Hospital, – Ownership ...... 964 33. Government credit cards – Number in public sector ...... 964 34. Legal Aid Budget – Maintaining expenditure within limit ...... 965 35. Civil Legal Aid – Green Forms in last three years ...... 965 36. Civil Legal Aid – Preventing abuse of system ...... 966 37. Legal Aid – Internal audit to prevent abuse ...... 966 38. IOM–UK Treaty Agreement – Alleged breach ...... 967 39. Manx depositors’ funds held by UK Government – Steps to recovery ...... 967 40. Mortgage holders – Protection from repossession ...... 967 41. Government-funded pre-school places – Response to consultation on allocation ...... 967 42. Swine flu and winter flu – Comparative danger ...... 967 43. Swine flu – Deaths in Mexico; rapid recovery in UK ...... 968 44. DHSS consultation paper – Claimed benefits in budgets ...... 968 45. DHSS consultation paper – Better productivity and cost savings in Health ...... 968 46. Children’s Services field social workers – Active cases ...... 969 47. UK Children and Adoption Act 2006 – Introduction of powers to Manx courts ...... 969 48. Death of ‘Baby P’ in England – Preventing similar occurrence in Island ...... 969 49. Children at risk – Number without qualified social worker ...... 970 930 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009

50. Work permits in last 12 months – Numbers for construction industry and brick/blocklaying ...... 970 51. Unemployment in last 12 months – Numbers in construction industry and brick/blocklaying ...... 970 52. Legal Aid Green Form application – Notifying other party re work done ...... 970 53. Legal Aid Green Forms – Controls and checks against fraud ...... 971

The Court adjourned at 1.08 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

Orders of the Day 5. Manx Electricity Authority board decision – Statement not made ...... 971 4. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury ...... 971

Consultation into proposed changes to Road Transport Act 2001 – Statement made by the Minister for Transport ...... 972 Announcement of Royal Assent ...... 973 Welcome to Nenad Rǎsić, Kosovan Minister for Labour and Social Welfare...... 973

6. NSC athletics track resurfacing – Expenditure approved ...... 974 7. Supplementary Capital Authorities 2008-09 – Expenditure 2008-09 approved ...... 980 8. Communications Development Programme – Expenditure approved ...... 983 9. Proposed Design and Build Contract at ‘The Steadings’, Farmhill – Expenditure approved ...... 989 12. Tynwald Honours Committee – First Report 2008-09 received and recommendation approved ...... 989

The Court adjourned at 4.50 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.20 p.m.

10. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) Limited – Debate further adjourned ...... 991 11. Standing Committee on Constitutional Matters – Reform of Common Travel Area: Borders Citizenship and Immigration Bill – First Report received and contents noted ...... 992 13. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Excise Duties Order 2009 approved ...... 1000 14. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2009 approved ...... 1000 15. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Export of Radioactive Sources (Control) (Amendment) Order 2009 (Application) Order 2009 approved ...... 1000 16. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009 approved ...... 1001 17. Members of Tynwald (Resettlement Grant) Scheme 2009 approved ...... 1001 18. Land Registration Act 1982 – Land Registration (Designation of Compulsory Area) Order 2009 approved ...... 1002 19. University of Salford – Mr Cretney elected to serve on the Assembly ...... 1003 20-21. Select Committee on Advertising in the Countryside – Items 20 and 21 withdrawn ...... 1003 22. Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost ...... 1004 24. Independent scrutiny of the executive – Motion not made ...... 1010 26. Hartford Homes: Bounty House, Main Road, Onchan – Motion not made ...... 1010

Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete business ...... 1010

23. Temporary closure of –Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report – Amended motion carried ...... 1011 25. Temporary closure of Laxey–Ramsey MER line 2008 – Motion not made ...... 1022

Procedural ...... 1023

The Council withdrew.

House of Keys ...... 1023

The House adjourned at 9.10 p.m.

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:-

Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted upon application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office, Legislative Buildings, Douglas, Isle of Man IM1 3PW. Papers Laid TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 931 T126

Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Tynwald Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2009 [SD No 250/09] The Court met at 10.30 a.m. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Export of Radioactive Sources (Control) (Amendment) [SD No 253/09] [MR PRESIDENT in the Chair] Order 2009 (Application) Order 2009 Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009 [SD No 251/09] The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please be upstanding for the President of Tynwald. Members of Tynwald (Resettlement Grant) Scheme 2009 – Members of Tynwald (Resettlement Grant) Scheme 2009 [GC No 014/09]

The President: Hon. Members, I call upon the Chaplain Land Registration Act 1982 – to lead us in prayers this morning. Land Registration (Designation of Compulsory Area) Order 2009 [SD No 195/09]

Reports PRAYERS First Report of the Standing Committee on Constitutional The Chaplain of the House of Keys Matters for the Session 2008 – 2009 [PP58/09] First Report of the Tynwald Honours Committee 2008 – 2009 [PP62/09]

Leave of absence granted Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on The President: Okay, Hon. Members, this morning I have the Order Paper granted leave of absence to the Hon. Member of Council, the Lord Bishop, missing on Church business; the Hon. Member Register of Members’ Interests Rules 2003 & 2005 – for Douglas West, Mr Shimmin, who will be joining us later Notice by the Registrar of Members’ Interests under Rule this afternoon; and, Hon. Members, the Hon. Member, Mr 6(1)(iv) [PP65/09] Gill, will be missing tomorrow if we are still sitting with this Order Paper. Civil Aviation Act 1982 – Air Navigation Order 2005 – Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (Tynwald Day) Regulations 2009 [SD No 294/09] BILL FOR SIGNATURE Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (TT Races) Regulations 2009 [SD No 296/09] Tree Preservation (Amendment) Bill Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, Etc.) The President: Hon. Members, we have but the one Bill Act 2004 – for signature. I propose to circulate the Tree Preservation Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 – (Amendment) Bill, if you are agreeable, for signature. Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Agreed, Hon. Members? Regulations 2009 [SD No 295/09]

Several Members: Agreed. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009 The President: In that case, that will happen, Hon. [SD No 269/09] Members. Value Added Tax (Increase of Registration Limits) Order 2009 [SD No 306/09]

Online Gambling Regulation Act 2001 – Papers laid before the Court Online Gambling (Licence Fees) Regulations 2009 [SD No 257/09] The President: We then move straight on to the laying of papers. I call upon the Clerk to lay papers, please. Currency Act 1992 – Currency (40th Anniversary of First Man on the Moon The Clerk: Mr President, I lay before the Court the Crown) Order 2009 [SD No 276/09] papers listed at Item 1 on the Order Paper. Currency (Honda 50 Years of World Championship Racing 50p) Order 2009 [SD No 286/09] Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Currency (2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa Crown) Excise Duties Order 2009 [SD No 261/09] Order 2009 [SD No 287/09]

Prayers Leave of absence granted Bill for signature Papers laid before the Court 932 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Oral Answers

Superannuation Act 1984 – Further, the Departments of Trade and Industry and Health Superannuation (Clerk of Tynwald’s Department) and Social Security have been tasked with working closely Determination (No. 2) 2009 [SD No 254/09] together to directly address any immediate labour market issues that may arise in the current economic situation. Education Act 2001 – Mr President, all Departments of Government, of course, Education Council Regulations 2009 [SD No 298/09] also have a role to play in effectively progressing projects which may combat any likely increase in unemployment. European Community – However, as I have advised, unemployment in the Island has EC Secondary Legislation – April 2009 [GC No 15/09] actually fallen in the last two months.

Appointed Day Order – Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 (Appointed Day) Order 2009 [SD No 297/09] Financial Supervision Commission Audit of salaries, accounts and budgets

2. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Chief Minister: Questions for Oral Answer Who audits the Financial Supervision Commission to ensure their own spending, salary scales, organisational CHIEF MINISTER accounts and budgets are managed within a proper transparent and accepted standard of best financial Unemployment practice and value for money? Combating rise The President: Question 2. Hon. Member for Douglas 1. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the North, Mr Henderson. Chief Minister: Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. What the Council of Ministers is doing to combat the rise Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I in unemployment on the Island? beg to ask the Question in my name.

The President: Hon. Members, having had the papers The President: Again, I call on the Chief Minister to laid before, we now turn to the Item of the Question Paper reply. and I call upon Mr Watterson, Hon. Member. The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, the Mr Watterson: Thank you very much, Mr President. Financial Supervision Commission prepares accounts in I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. accordance with the Audit Act 2006, and these are audited by KPMG Audit LLC. Its accounts are separately published and The President: Chief Minister, please. a copy is sent annually to each Member of Tynwald. The FSC is also required to comply with the Government’s financial The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr regulations and is subject to internal audit by Government. President. As a Statutory Board, the FSC budget is approved in The first point I would wish to make is that for the past line with the same processes as applied to Government two months – that is March and April – unemployment has Departments and other Statutory Boards. The FSC’s actually decreased. However, realising that Government expenditure is monitored and controlled within budget in cannot afford to be complacent, due to the present world a similar way. As a Statutory Board, the FSC is required to economic downturn, in December last year the Council of observe requirements set by the Treasury. The independent Ministers set up an executive co-ordinating group, chaired and complementary assessment made of the effectiveness by myself, along with the Ministers for Treasury, Education, of our regulatory regime, including that made by the Local Government and the Environment and Trade and International Monetary Fund, demonstrates standards of the Industry, with the relevant senior officers attending, to best financial practice and value for money. examine and monitor any impact on not only the business Thank you, sir. sector of our economy but also that of Government Departments. The group meets on a regular basis to receive The President: Mr Henderson. up-to-date information and will, where necessary, co-ordinate and promote any actions deemed necessary to combat any Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. adverse effects relating to employment. Could the Ard-shirveishagh answer us with regard to the As well as this, the Ministers for Treasury, Trade and recent salary increase for the Chief Executive, in respect of Industry and Local Government and the Environment are the audited accounts and so on, and could he advise us that jointly meeting on a regular basis with representatives of the the Treasury input are happy with the same increase? construction industry. In addition, the Council of Ministers has initiated closer scrutiny of Departments’ expenditure in The President: Chief Minister. relation to the Government’s capital programme to endeavour to ensure timely progress of such schemes, which in the main The Chief Minister: Well, this jumps on to the next directly feed into the work of the construction industry. Question, Mr President –

Papers laid before the Court Unemployment – Combating rise Financial Supervision Commission – Audit of salaries, accounts and budgets Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 933 T126

The President: I appreciate that, sir. to be excessive salaries, do not in future occur, or at least if they do occur, have the concurrence of the Chief Minister The Chief Minister: – so I think it would be inappropriate of the day? to answer at this stage, sir. The President: Chief Minister – relative to the The President: Okay. In that case, Mr Henderson. administration.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Could the Chief Minister assure us that he, the Council I think it is absolutely important, as we set up an of Ministers and Treasury, are happy with the Treasury input independent body, which is seen as important by the IMF which the Chief Minister has just explained to us, with regard and other bodies such as the OECD etc, that independence to auditing the FSC, and that Treasury, and presumably the is protected. Therefore, sir, I think it is inappropriate for Internal Audit team from Treasury, are happy with all the Government to get directly involved in that. headings, as so published? The rest I will answer later.

The President: I think, Mr Henderson, we will come The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member. back on the second. Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Can the Chief Minister give us an assurance that he Mr Karran: Supplementary: would the Ard-shirveishagh is happy with the transparency of the systems that are in explain the logic, and the effect that we have got an efficient place to audit the FSC, as per my Question? Can he give system, where in some cases we have seven layers of his assurances in that respect, or in fact does he agree that management? We have the supervision officer, who has two changes may need to be made? assistant managers to report to, who have two managers to report to, who have then a senior manager to report to, then The President: Chief Minister. to another senior manager to report to, until he gets up to the head of supervision, before getting to the chief executive. The Chief Minister: I think the answer is that they are What assurances can the Ard-shirveishagh give us that audited like any other Statutory Board or any Government there are the checks and balances within the FSC, that we are Department, sir, and therefore, unless we want to change not creating bureaucracy and extra layers of administration that – and we have only recently amended the Audit Act – I that really are not there, but only there to justify the law of believe that the systems in place are appropriate and follow Parkinson, to increase the wages of those at the top, by having the wishes of Tynwald, sir. to employ so many further down the level that really do not have a role within the FSC? The President: Finally, Mr Karran.

The President: Chief Minister. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that he is defending the indefensible, when The Chief Minister: Mr President, as the Financial we have a situation where you have got seven layers of Supervision Commission is an independent body, independent administration? of Government, its structure is a matter for that body, sir. Would he not also agree that the fact is that he is supposed to not get involved with the regulatory purpose, as far as The President: Mrs Cannell. the policing of the situation; but the situation as far as them having to provide an accountable, efficient and effective Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. service for the finance industry has to be taken on board? Will Would the Chief Minister agree with me that it might be he not opt out of his responsibility, in order to make sure that, worthwhile to actually ask the Value for Money Committee in the likes of these areas, there is some accountability put to look at whether or not we are truly getting value for in, because it is an absurdity and it is just a classic example money? of the law of Parkinson, where you get more staff –

The President: Again, we are straying onto the next The President: Mr Karran. Question, I think. Question 3 – Mr Karran: – at lower ends in order to boost your own wages. Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane, a supplementary. The President: Chief Minister, do you wish to reply to The President: Mr Cannan. that, sir?

Mr Henderson: I tried to catch your eye! The Chief Minister: Only to say the independence of this body, I think, is important to the Isle of Man, sir. Mr Cannan: Bearing in mind the importance that the regulatory function has no political influence, will the Chief The President: Treasury Minister. Minister, or the Council of Ministers, reconsider that the administration, separate from the regulation, of the FSC is Mr Bell: Mr President, would the Hon. Chief Minister accountable to either the Treasury or the Council of Ministers, agree with me that one of the very strong concerns expressed and that situations such as we are in today, where there seem by the IMF, when they reported in 2003, was not just on

Financial Supervision Commission – Audit of salaries, accounts and budgets 934 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Oral Answers the independence of regulation, but it was also the financial for the administration and finances of the FSC and allowing independence of the Financial Supervision Commission them total free range… Does the Chief Minister not realise because they believed that, by Treasury being over- that, unless there is some accountability and control by controlling on the financial aspect of the operation of the Tynwald over their finances and salaries, this continual FSC, we could indirectly then control the decision-making questioning, which does the reputation of the Financial within the regulation process and this was one of their key Supervision Commission no good whatsoever…? points in their Report? The matter needs to be addressed by the Council of Ministers, otherwise I foresee future questions damaging the The President: Chief Minister – do you agree, sir? reputation of this Commission.

The Chief Minister: I can confirm – and I think it is The President: Chief Minister. important to recognise – that just monitoring or controlling finance is not the only way you can cause harm to how The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. effective a regulator is. Our view is quite clear that the I have to say I am somewhat surprised at the Hon. Financial Supervision Commission is there to do a job, Member for Michael making such a statement, as he has independently of Government, and is set up under statute to always been one who has said that we have to pay the right do that very job, and we respect that, sir. money to get the right people, otherwise you end up with people who are not necessarily able to do the job. Just to put it into context, whilst the Chief Executive of the Financial Supervision Commission gets £250,000 and FSC Chief Executive’s salary also he has no provision for a pension within that, just to give Appropriate amount an example and how it is looked at in general terms, in the Financial Services Authority in the UK, its chief executive 3. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) to has a salary of £417,179 and total emoluments of £661,948. ask the Chief Minister: The rate of getting somebody who, if we are serious about our financial sector to ensure that we have the right professionals Whether he considers that the pay of the Chief Executive at the top to provide the right advice, then we have to pay of the Financial Supervision Commission of £249,750 is for that. We have to compete in the world market, not just appropriate when the UK Chancellor Alistair Darling the Isle of Man market. only receives £141,866 for running the UK economy? I think it is also worth making the point, Mr President, the amount of fees generated are actually £12.6 million, of which The President: Mr Malarkey, Question 3. £8.7 million comes into Government’s coffers, sir.

Mr Malarkey: I beg leave to ask the Question standing The President: Mr Malarkey, Hon. Member. in my name, sir. Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. The President: Again, the Chief Minister. Does the Chief Minister not think that we send out the wrong message, for a population of 80,000, when we are The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, it is paying this type of money to a Chief Executive and that even for the Financial Supervision Commission to independently the Prime Minister of England only gets £194,000, some determine the remuneration of their Chief Executive, taking £55,000 short of what the Chief Executive – into account all relevant factors and this, I believe, they have done. I am, therefore, content that the pay of the Chief Mr Downie: Plus expenses! Executive has no relevance to that of the UK Chancellor. Thank you, sir. The President: Chief Minister.

The President: Mr Gill, Hon. Member. Mr Malarkey: Plus… well, we are not going down to expenses. Mr Gill: Notwithstanding the rights and wrongs of the pay rise for the Chief Executive of the FSC, could the Chief The President: Chief Minister. Minister advise us of any other pay rises for public servants, give or take, say 10 per cent of the pay rise that that officer The Chief Minister: The Hon. Member is right when has enjoyed, elsewhere in the Civil Service, sir? he says it does damage: yes, because the questions are nonsensical. To be quite honest, you cannot compare The President: Now, Chief Minister, I do not know professionals against politicians because of the different whether you have those figures. roles they have, and if you look right round the world you will see that those in senior professional positions, senior The Chief Minister: I have not got that information with civil servants, will get always more pay than the politicians, me, Mr President, but what I can say is it was all circulated whether it be the prime minister or anyone else. to Members only very recently in answer to a Question. As far as this is concerned, if the Isle of Man wishes to continue to be successful, we have to pay the going rate to get The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. the right people. If you want to reduce the pay, you will end up with second best and you will end up in a position where Mr Cannan: Will the Chief Minister, having not properly Members will be saying, ‘Why aren’t we paying the right rate answered my question about separating or being accountable to get the right people?’ because we are in a mess.

Financial Supervision Commission – Audit of salaries, accounts and budgets FSC Chief Executive’s salary – Appropriate amount Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 935 T126

As far as I am concerned, the FSC have done their job. you will not get the proper expertise you require. They have looked at it and they have considered whether or The Financial Supervision Commission have been tasked not it is the appropriate pay. They have determined it and to take this role on board and, coming back to the Member’s that is their responsibility, sir. question, our Chief Executive gets a quarter of what the equivalent gets in the United Kingdom. The President: Mrs Cannell.

Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Chief Minister advise the Court whether or not Second casino licence the UK equivalent, to which he referred when responding Council of Ministers’ policy earlier, received an equivalent pay increase in his or her pay this year and last year as the Isle of Man counterpart? 4. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the And furthermore – a second supplementary, Mr President Chief Minister: – has the Chief Minister voiced to the FSC that he considers that, in view of the economic climate in the Isle of Man at the (1) Whether an application has been received for a casino moment, whether or not the Chief Executive has considered licence at the Mount Murray complex; and, if so, what not taking such a high increase, bearing in mind that it was has been the outcome; decided to give him the increase before the economic climate (2) what his and/or the Council of Ministers’ policy is really hit hard? with regard to the granting of a second casino licence on the Island; and The President: Chief Minister. (3) what consideration would be given to the effect on the owners of the existing casino on the Island if a casino The Chief Minister: Mr President, I think, again, I would licence were granted to a competitor without a substantial remind Hon. Members – which I have answered in a Question premium having been paid for the second licence? before – the pay increase that the Chief Executive of the FSC was given by the Commission was, in fact, determined for The President: Question 4, Hon. Member, Mr Karran. March 2008, prior to the present economic situation. Again, not only do we have to compete in relation to the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing other jurisdictions; we also have to compete with our very in my name. firm competitors who are in the same businesses as we are, who are also Crown dependencies, and our pay is on a par The President: Chief Minister. with theirs, as I understand it. So I think that the Commission have undertaken their role properly, and whether Members The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, in like it or not, if we are into this sort of area, it has always answer to the first part of the Question, the Answer is no. been that the Chief Executive of the FSC… As far as I am In answer to the second part of the Question, the present aware, it has always been that they have had a rate of pay Council of Ministers’ policy is that a licence should only be which equates to the role and responsibilities of that position, issued: (1) as a means of inducing a major new development; sir, and we expect them to look after the Island’s interests (2) it should only be issued to someone with a good track independently of any political influence. record in running casinos; (3) public tender would be sought for the licence when an application was made; and (4) there The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. should be no Government financial assistance with the new development. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the Ard-shirveishagh think In answer to part (3) of the Question, if an application for it is credible to be talking of a Chief Executive of the UK a second licence was received, it is likely that such factors as FSA on the same lines as a Chief Executive of the FSC in outlined in this part of the Question would be considered. the Isle of Man, and talk of the same sort of wages on that Thank you, sir. basis, when he has a fraction of the responsibility and the fact of the income tax level that is in this country must put him The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. fairly up to the same level of his UK counterpart, allowing for advantageous tax arrangement? Mr Karran: Could the Ard-shirveishagh just assure us Would the Ard-shirveishagh not also agree that, with his that we will have a situation, as far as any second licence answer, the fact is that he is quite right that the executive is concerned, where there will be some sort of substantial should not control the FSC on this Island, but it should amount of advantage to the Manx taxpayer, allowing for the be accountable to Parliament so that it does actually have substantial amount of money that the existing owner of the some realism as far as being not self-serving but serving the present licence has had to pay, in order to buy the property industry and maximising the money for the taxpayers of the that accommodates the existing licence? Will he make sure Isle of Man? that there is no way that this is not done on a level and fair basis for the whole of the people who would like to apply The President: Chief Minister. for a second licence in the Isle of Man?

The Chief Minister: Mr President, I am disappointed The President: Chief Minister. we are going back in time. We have been through these arguments many years ago, and one of the lessons that The Chief Minister: Mr President, if anybody applied Tynwald and the Government of the Isle of Man learnt in the for a second licence, they would be considered in the same early 1980s is that unless you pay the going rate for the job, way as anybody else, sir.

FSC Chief Executive’s salary – Appropriate amount Second casino licence – Council of Ministers’ policy 936 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Oral Answers

TREASURY Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander UK Significant payments to a certain depositor Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander E-mails to depositors and Early Payment Scheme 6. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the addresses Minister for the Treasury:

5. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the What representations have been made to the UK Treasury Minister for the Treasury: in light of the revelation that significant sums have been paid out to a single depositor from Kaupthing Singer and Whether all e-mails referred to the Kaupthing Singer Friedlander UK? and Friedlander depositors and Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Early Payment Scheme e-mail addresses The President: Question 6. Hon. Member, Mr have been responded to? Watterson.

The President: Question 5, Mr Watterson. Mr Watterson: Thank you, sir. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. Mr Watterson: Thank you, sir. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: Again, the Minister for the Treasury, please. The President: Minister for the Treasury, Mr Bell, please. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, as a result of information appearing in the media in March, The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, clarification of the situation was sought and received from following the resolution by this Hon. Court to introduce Her Majesty’s Treasury. It was made clear that, in the United the Early Payment Schemes in December last year, the Kingdom, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, Treasury established a small team to administer the payments or FSCS, is responsible for determining both the eligibility and deal with the enquiries of depositors. These dedicated and priority with which eligible depositors are paid out. helplines have dealt with, literally, thousands of telephone The FSCS is independent of HM Treasury and has sole calls and e-mails, over the last five months or so. There is responsibility for determining whether a depositor meets the an established protocol in place for all e-mails referred to necessary eligibility criteria under its rules. The FSCS is also the KSF depositors’ enquiry address to receive a response responsible for determining the priority with which eligible within five working days. In practice, these are now usually claimants are paid out. turned round within 48 hours. I understand that a number of enquiries have been The President: Mr Watterson. forwarded to the KSF team by Hon. Members, and that a large number of e-mails have enjoyed a wider circulation amongst Mr Watterson: I am not entirely sure how that helps Members, which have not been related to a specific depositor answer my Question, sir. seeking information in respect of their personal account. I want to know what representations have been made to In the case where Hon. Members have forwarded such e- the UK Treasury, in light of the revelation that a significant mails, the KSF team have exercised their best endeavours to sum has been paid out to a single depositor from KSF UK. respond to these enquiries and contacted the originator. Such That was done under the auspices of the Chancellor. So responses have not always, as a matter of course, been copied perhaps I can seek some clarity from the Treasury Minister to the large numbers on the circulation or the Member who that he can actually answer the Question, as printed on the may have forwarded the message. Given the volume of e- Order Paper, sir. mails generated in this matter, I doubt whether Hon. Members would wish to be inundated with such details. The President: The Treasury Minister has answered the Mr President, I would, however, stress that all bona Question. He may wish to continue. fide enquiries from depositors seeking help and assistance with their applications for the early payment are dealt with The Minister: Mr President, I will answer the question promptly and we have, indeed, received a number of letters that the payment did not come from Kaupthing itself, it came and e-mails from depositors expressing their gratitude for from the UK Compensation Scheme. the relief that the Early Payment Scheme has made to their personal circumstances. For the record, I am pleased to inform Hon. Members, that the level of payments under the Early Payment Scheme has now reached some £70 million. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Extension of UK Government’s guarantee to depositors The President: Mr Watterson, Hon. Member. 7. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Mr Watterson: Is the short answer then, yes, all e-mails Minister for the Treasury: referring to those hotlines have been answered? Further to HM Government’s guarantee to Kaupthing The President: Mr Bell. Singer and Friedlander depositors in the United Kingdom that 100 per cent of their deposits will be returned, and Mr Bell: To the best of my knowledge, Mr President, given that UK actions directly resulted in the provisional yes. liquidation of the Isle of Man subsidiary of Kaupthing

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Singer and Friedlander, what representations have on Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) Limited, the been made to the UK authorities to extend their 100 per Isle of Man Financial Supervision Commission and the cent guarantee to depositors of Kaupthing Singer and Isle of Man Government? Friedlander (IOM) Limited? The President: Question 8. Hon. Member for Michael, The President: Question 7. Mr Watterson. Mr Cannan.

Mr Watterson: Thank you, sir. Mr Cannan: I ask the Question standing in my name, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. sir.

The President: Again, I call on Mr Bell, Treasury The President: Again, I call Mr Bell, Minister for the Minister. Treasury.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Thank you, The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, Mr President. I am aware of the Report of the House of Commons Treasury The Isle of Man Government’s position was made clear Select Committee to which the Hon. Member refers. Overall, by the Chief Minister when he gave evidence to the United in relation to the references to the Kaupthing event on the Kingdom Treasury Select Committee. The Isle of Man is Isle of Man, I believe the Select Committee’s Report was, financially and fiscally autonomous and does not expect any broadly, a fair one. financial assistance from the United Kingdom. The Report clearly sets out the concerns which we have in relation to communication by the FSA and the effects which The President: Mr Watterson. the closure of Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Ltd (KSF) in the UK had upon KSF (Isle of Man). The Report referred Mr Watterson: Does he accept that the United Kingdom to our Early Payment Schemes and the proposed Scheme of has a liability to the depositors and the directors of KSF Isle Arrangement, as well as to the Depositors’ Compensation of Man by the actions that they have taken, which has led to Scheme which, of course, Guernsey did not have, in relation the situation that we now face? to the failure there of Landsbanki. It was clearly evident that the Select Committee did feel that there were shortcomings The President: Mr Bell. in the communication which took place between the FSA and our own FSC, in the light of the co-operation which had The Minister: This argument has been well rehearsed taken place previously in relation to Bradford & Bingley. The and aired, I think, over the last few months, Mr President, Committee highlighted this as a concern and recommended and my position on that has been made very clear. that the Financial Services Authority review its existing powers and strategy for dealing with other jurisdictions and The President: Mr Watterson. reports on its efforts in this respect. Although Lord Turner’s Review Report touched on this, no doubt we will be hearing Mr Watterson: Could he therefore clarify it? more about it. Mr President, I thought also that the Select Committee’s The President: Mr Bell, Treasury Minister. Report gave a fairly balanced view of the evidence submitted from different quarters in relation to the Chancellor of The Minister: As the Hon. Member has clearly forgotten, the Exchequer’s remarks about tax havens. It came over Mr President, we believe that the entire problem which clearly that persons depositing money offshore should not caused the collapse of Kaupthing was generated by, first automatically be regarded as tax evaders. The Isle of Man’s of all, the deteriorating state of the Icelandic economy, and adoption of a retention tax for EU residents also came over then the actions taken by the UK Chancellor in October, in responsibly. This was rounded off with an unequivocal reaction to that, which has trapped the deposits from the statement that HM Treasury considers the standard of money Isle of Man which are being held in Kaupthing UK. I have laundering systems in the Crown dependencies and Gibraltar answered this on a number of occasions, Mr President, and to be equivalent to European standards, as embodied in the my position has not changed since. Third Money Laundering Directive. This was an important endorsement of our regime. The Select Committee also reviewed the position of British expatriate depositors, as well as those with the Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander UK Derbyshire Building Society, which had previously been House of Commons Treasury Select Committee Report taken over by KSF (IOM). This section of the Select Committee’s Report was rounded off near the end with 8. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the a statement that the UK authorities should seek to work Minister for the Treasury: closely with other interested parties, such as the Financial Supervision Commission on the Isle of Man, to maximise (1) Whether he is aware that the House of Commons the transparency of the administration of KSF, in order to Treasury Select Committee has completed its Report into facilitate the best outcome for all depositors, including those the collapse of the Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander UK with funds in KSF (IOM). This was another comment with Bank and, if so, whether he has studied the document; which I very strongly agree. (2) if he will make a statement on comments in the Report So, Mr President, overall I do not see anything in the Select

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Committee Report to undermine the concerns which we have The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr had from the outset about how this affair was handled. Indeed, President, I should like to make it clear to Hon. Members a number of the comments are understanding or supportive that the administrative arrangements for the ballot on the of our position and none of our evidence seems to have been proposed Scheme of Arrangement are the responsibility disputed by the other parties. of PricewaterhouseCoopers, acting in their capacity of What comes out of this still remains to be seen and I will liquidator provisional. do my best to keep Hon. Members informed. I am advised that the liquidator provisional issued documents in accordance with the court orders. I also The President: Hon. Member for Michael. understand from the liquidator provisional that, where depositors have not received their ballot forms directly, Mr Cannan: I thank you and I thank the Treasury they have been advised to access the Kaupthing Singer and Minister for his statement. Friedlander website directly and download the proxy voting One question I ask – the Report identified shortcomings forms. of the FSA in the United Kingdom and the FSC in the Isle Hon. Members will, no doubt, be aware that the ballot of Man: does the FSA in the UK, having accepted their is taking place today and, following the vote, the liquidator shortcomings… does the FSC in the Isle of Man, accept provisional will be required to report to the court not only on that they had shortcomings in relation to this and, if so, the outcome and result of that vote, but also on the process what actions are they taking to ensure that does not happen and administrative procedures associated with the voting in the future? arrangements.

The President: Treasury Minister. The President: Question 10, Hon. Member… Sorry, a supplementary, sir. The Minister: I am not aware of criticism of the FSC within the Report, Mr President. What it refers to is a need Mr Cannan: Thank you. to improve the communications between the two regulatory Is the Treasury Minister aware that Members of Tynwald bodies and, as the Hon. Member well knows, it is my have been receiving e-mails, this morning, suggesting that intention – Treasury’s intention – and the Chief Minister, in many of the voting forms have not been received, three weeks fact, to support at the appropriate time a thorough review of after they were supposedly being mailed out? If this is correct events leading up to and beyond the collapse of the Kaupthing – the content of the e-mails – what confidence does this give bank. I am sure we will have a much better idea of what in the result of the voting that is taking place today? happened at that point. The President: Treasury Minister. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. The Minister: If the Hon. Member has been receiving Mr Cannan: When is the appropriate time, sir? e-mails – and I am aware there have been some comments made to this end – then the individuals presumably who The President: Mr Bell. sent the e-mails have access to the Internet and would have been able to download the proxy forms from the website, The Minister: Mr President, it is my fervent hope, as like everybody else. soon as we can get the immediate problems of dealing with either the Scheme of Arrangement or the liquidation out of The President: Mr Cannan. the way, that we will be strongly supporting the setting up of an inquiry no later than July. Mr Cannan: A further supplementary. The e-mails received appear to be from groups of depositors organising the voting or the proxy thing and they are suggesting that they have been in contact with depositors, not all of whom Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) have computers, and that these people have not received the Proxy forms for vote on Scheme of Arrangement necessary forms and for those he advised that… the Deemster has this morning been advised by these depositors of the 9. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the failure to receive voting forms. Minister for the Treasury: The President: I am not sure that there is a question Whether all Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) there, more a statement. I do not know whether the Treasury Bank depositors resident outside the United Kingdom will Minister… do you wish to answer? have received their proxy voting forms in time to be eligible to vote on the proposed Scheme of Arrangement? The Minister: I cannot add anything more, Mr President, other than to say the Deemster… Well, first of all, it is the The President: Question 9. Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. provisional liquidators who have responsibility for this; this is not a Government or Treasury responsibility. They are Mr Cannan: I ask the Question standing in my name, working, as I have said, under the instruction of the court, and sir. the Deemster dealing with this will deal with any objections and concerns expressed by these depositors, when he finally The President: Again, I call the Treasury Minister. makes his decision next week.

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Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) Whether he would favour a change in departmental Seeking assistance from UK accounting rules so that the annual revenue budgets of the various Departments and Statutory Boards had to 10. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the include a percentage of their wage and salary costs to Minister for the Treasury: reflect the increased pension contributions that would be needed to cover the annual increase in the actuarial Whether he is aware that a Member of the House of shortfall in the future liability for the pensions of their Commons Treasury Select Committee, Mark Todd MP, has employees so that the true current and future cost of their advised depositors of Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander employment was reflected in departmental accounts; and (IOM) Bank as follows: that the percentage referred to above was paid into the ‘There is a large difficulty here. The Isle of Man is clearly Public Sector Employees’ Pension Reserve Fund? sovereign in the matter (as the report indicates). It must be for their Government (Isle of Man) to seek assistance. The President: Hon. Members, we turn to Question 11. If they (Isle of Man) could be persuaded to make an I call the Hon. Member, Mr Karran. approach to the United Kingdom, I am sure that I, and other MPs could assist in pressing for assistance to be Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing given. However it seems (so far) that they do not wish in my name. to ask;’ what his response is to this statement? The President: Minister for the Treasury.

The President: Question 10, Mr Cannan. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, before I answer the Question proposed, I should point out, Mr Cannan: I ask the Question standing in my name, for the benefit of Hon. Members, that some Departments and sir. all Statutory Boards currently make payments in respect of annual employers’ pension liabilities. The President: Again, Mr Bell to answer. The specific Question is whether I would support a change insofar as Departments were required to set aside the cost The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, of the increased actuarial liability, and that this sum be paid I am aware of the comment. into the Employees’ Pension Reserve Fund. The amount The Isle of Man Government’s position was made clear required to meet that liability would be in the region of £65 million per year and the charge would be around 20 per by the Chief Minister when he gave evidence to the United cent of each employee’s salary. Clearly, the implications Kingdom Treasury Select Committee. The Isle of Man is of this on Government’s finances and the economy would financially and fiscally autonomous and does not expect any be substantially material. Either Government Departments financial assistance from the United Kingdom. would have to make reductions in service or we would be required to raise taxes or reduce capital spending, or a combination of the above, in order to find this amount. The ultimate effect of this would be to reduce the amount of Welcome to Mr Pickavance, President of the money in the local economy, which would then, presumably, Chartered Institute of Building International be invested in order to meet the long-term costs, when they became payable. The President: Hon. Members, perhaps at this stage, we Similarly, doing nothing is not an option. Life expectancy will give the Treasury Minister a bit of a break, if I may: can improvements alone mean that failure to act now will result I, on your behalf, Hon. Members, welcome formally to our in higher taxes or worse public services for everyone in the Distinguished Visitors’ Gallery Mr Pickavance. years ahead, (Mr Karran: Absolutely.) as the cost of paying I understand that Mr Pickavance is actually the President pensions rises. It is precisely because of these challenges of the Chartered Institute of Building International, Hon. that we have commissioned Hymans Robertson to devise Members, and not unknown to the Isle of Man. I understand a sustainable strategy for the funding of public service from Mr Pickavance that he first visited aged six, when he pensions that balances the impact on current taxpayers, future was visiting here in Douglas, and subsequently lived for taxpayers and current employees. a little while in Castletown, Hon. Members. We welcome I would, therefore, reinforce the importance of the you, sir, to this and hope you are enjoying watching our current consultation exercise in finding a consensus way proceedings this morning. Thank you. forward. My own view is that the Hon. Member’s proposal would have an unacceptable consequence on the economy, Members: Hear, hear. on taxpayers and on the public sector, although I continue to support the commitment of more resources to meet the growth in long-term pension liabilities, as and when we can afford to do so. Public sector pensions Including pension contributions in The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. departmental accounts Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the Shirveishagh Tashtee 11. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the not agree that the fact is that we really do need to start Minister for the Treasury: highlighting this issue… that the issue is that if we were

Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) – Seeking assistance from UK Welcome to Mr Pickavance, President of the Chartered Institute of Building International Public sector pensions – Including pension contributions in departmental accounts 940 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Oral Answers directors of the company now, we would be honour-bound Mr President, now that the Hon. Member has clarified and have a legal responsibility in order to fund the long-term it, I understand what he is saying. There is a point – and liabilities, as far as pensions are concerned? Are we cherry I know the private sector has raised this issue in the past picking, as far as our responsibilities are concerned at the – when the private sector is, in fact, competing against present time, with the total abrogation of the long-term tenders from Government, i.e. for Department of Transport liabilities we have to future generations? business in particular, that the Government tenders need to Could the Shirveishagh Tashtee also inform this Hon. be a true reflection of what the overall cost is as, clearly, Court, allowing for the fact that there seems to be a vast the private sector does have to take into account the labour inconsistency between himself in charge of the Government costs in all their forms when they are tendering. So there is purse and the head of the executive, the Ard-shirveishagh, as a point there. far as the amounts of money that are needed, that when we Mr President, I think the Hon. Member, when he talks are talking about tendering for work against firms outside the about the responsibilities of directors generally, in the private Government, for Government projects, that this issue needs sector, will be aware that the vast majority, certainly of to be addressed as part of the financial equation, as far as how publicly quoted companies these days, are all struggling with much the true cost is as far as any tendering procedure? the same problems of a growing pension deficit within that company. Indeed, it is causing major problems in companies The President: Mr Bell, Treasury Minister. either in the private sector or in public, such as the Post Office currently, which is actually now being talked about The Minister: Mr President, I have absolutely no idea being privatised, largely driven by the massive deficit in the what the Member has just asked me. (Laughter) Post Office pension. So the problem with pensions, Mr President, is not Mr Karran: Well, I can repeat it, Eaghtyrane, if I am not something that is simply locally concerning the Isle of Man going to get heckled by you! Government; it is a worldwide issue at the moment, and one which is going to continue growing in magnitude. I would The President: No, Mr Karran – just like to highlight to the Hon. Member my commitment to this, Mr President. In the time that I have been Treasury Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane – Minister, the amount of money in the Public Pension Reserve Fund has risen from £60 million, now to in excess of £200 The President: Mr Karran, there is a need… million. We still have a long way to go, I accept that, but we Starting off a supplementary by saying, ‘Would the have taken very positive steps over the last few years to try Member agree…’ and then going into a statement is not really and begin to address this particular shortfall, as and when the way to ask a supplementary. Get it out specific, sir. funds are available – and I would hope that the economy will Mr Karran. get into a more robust state of growth over the next two or three years – we will continue that process. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think it is wrong of you, as Chair of this… The President: Hon. Member for Onchan. I am asking for information on a number of important issues that need to be addressed, as far as the long-term Mr Karran: Thanking the Shirveishagh Tashtee for a security of future generations. What I would like, as far as the sensible reply to a very serious question, and also thanking last question is concerned… Does he think it is right, when him as far as the issue of the growth as far as the £200 million we talk about tendering for work with the private sector, when that is in the Reserve Fund, as far as pension liabilities for we do not allow for the fact, the likes of with the DoT… that the future, but does he recognise that that is something in the we do not allow for the long-term liabilities of pensions when region of 10 per cent, or thereabouts, of what will be required, we are talking about tendering with the private sector, when as far as that issue is concerned? we do not take any account of such a substantial amount, Would he not also agree, whilst thanking him for a which must be part of the £65 million which is going to be sensible reply to a serious issue, that the fact is that if we were there as the long-term debt as far as future generations are a private company we would have the liabilities to accept concerned. If the Minister does not understand it, then he the issues of the £65-million-worth of debt that is occurring should give up his job! this year and increasing every other year, as far as the public sector liability? Does this not mean that, by not accepting The President: Treasury Minister. that liability that would be on us if we were not MHKs, but directors of a company, we are not giving the priority to this The Minister: I would be delighted to hand over my issue, as far as future generations, and not addressing the job to Mr Karran, Mr President, as I am sure he will make serious issues that need to be addressed if we are a responsible a great job of it! administration to the next generation?

Mr Karran: And I would be delighted to take his job The President: Mr Bell. and the Ard-shirveishagh’s, to get some sense into this Hon. Court! The Minister: I have answered that question on a number of occasions, Mr President, prior to today, but I The President: Mr Karran! would just point out that the liabilities covered by reserves have increased from 7 per cent in 2002, when I took over, to The Minister: I am sure the Isle of Man looks forward around 15 per cent today, so we are making some substantial to that day, Mr President! (Laughter) progress on that.

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Mr President, in terms of the wider issue, I can only repeat Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh our commitment to improving that situation, that level of – maybe, for example, the seven layers in the FSC might be cover, as fast as we can possibly do it but the Hon. Member a start – but would the Shirveishagh not agree with the fact also has to recognise, as I answered in my question, that the that… would he consider the issue of making sure that part annual cost, if we were to meet it in full, is somewhere in of the financial appraisal when Government Departments the region of £65 million. That £65 million would have to are tendering for work with the private sector, that the be cut off every Department’s budget, at a time when we are public pension liability is part of that package, as far as that struggling to maintain the quality of public services on the tendering procedure? Island. The only way forward would be quite severe cuts in Would he also maybe discuss the issue with the Minister the provision of public services or quite substantial increases for Health and Social Security that there have been at least in the income tax rates to cover that. In the present climate, four or five more levels of bureaucracy created in the Health Mr President, I think that is unacceptable, but we are – as I Services since I left, which could be one area where it could, have said on many occasions – totally committed to try and maybe, affect without affecting front-line services for the do our best to minimise the commitment into the future. weak, the poor and the sick, which I do understand the Minister is as much committed to protecting as myself? The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crowe. The President: Mr Bell to reply. Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Treasury Minister just confirm that, when he The Minister: I really have answered that, Mr talked about part privatisation of the Post Office, he was President. talking about Royal Mail not the Isle of Man Post Office?

The President: Mr Karran. OECD White List jurisdictions Mr Karran: Thanking the Shirveishagh Tashtee for his Number of tax agreements signed question and the fact that we have gone up from 7.5 per cent to 15 per cent, would the Shirveishagh Tashtee not agree that 12. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the the fact is that if we are expecting the private sector to have to Minister for the Treasury: provide, on legislation, as far as their pensions are concerned, (1) Whether he is aware of the number of tax agreements that we should be affecting the same liabilities yourself? that have been signed by each of the countries on the Would he not agree that there is another way forward, as OECD White List of jurisdictions that had substantially far as the shortfalls that could be addressed… is by actually implemented the internationally agreed tax standards; attacking the layers of bureaucracy that we have allowed to and, if so, if he will publish the information; be attracted into the public sector over the years. That would (2) why he believes that the OECD published the number be the way forward, as far as affecting where the cuts need of tax agreements signed by jurisdictions on the Grey List to be, without attacking the front-line services? and Black List but withheld this information for the White List jurisdictions; and The President: Mr Bell, Treasury Minister. (3) if he will (a) publish, or (b) circulate to Hon. Members, copies of the letter from the UK Prime Minister The Minister: Mr President, I have one annually, recognising the Island’s compliance with international certainly at every Budget time, and every other opportunity standards on taxation, following the Island’s inclusion subsequent to that about the growth in the number of on the OECD White List? Government employees. I think we are getting to a level where the Isle of Man cannot sustain it and we have to be The President: In that case we will go on to Question very disciplined in ensuring that we keep the growth in 12. Government employees to an absolute minimum. Mr Karran. It is very nice to be able to say we are taking on more staff in various Departments, but there is this long-term pension Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing liability which goes with it, which has not been highlighted in my name. or recognised, indeed, by some Members and indeed, at times by the wider public. They have to recognise that when The President: Again, the Minister for the Treasury, we are taking on these extra services, they have to be paid Mr Bell. for in full. So I am on record on a number of occasions in warning to this. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, Again, though, I would ask the Hon. Member, if we were I do not have the details of how many tax agreements have to pursue his line of questioning at the moment, it would been signed by each of the countries listed by the OECD mean £65 million worth of cuts from somewhere or, again to on 2nd April 2009, as having substantially implemented follow his point, quite substantial numbers of redundancies the internationally agreed tax standard. The standard can be amongst our workers and perhaps it would be helpful if he met by having in place modern double-taxation agreements, could tell us exactly where he wants to see those redundancies or Tax Information Exchange Agreements. There are many take place. hundreds of the former type of agreement and now over 70 of the latter. The President: A supplementary, sir. As regards the second part of the Hon. Member’s

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Question, I am afraid I am not privy to the policy-making is, again, the most in any small country anywhere in the process of the OECD. However, the OECD did make public, world. We have to keep the pressure on that. We have to in advance of the G20 Summit in London, that the thresholds keep aware of the evolving international debate, and to make for being included in the list of countries having substantially sure that we cannot be criticised in the future, no matter implemented the internationally agreed tax standard, was to how rightly or wrongly, the comments might be from these have signed 12 appropriate agreements with the OECD. bigger countries. I assume that once a country has met or exceeded the threshold, then its number of agreements is immaterial in comparison to those countries which are still working towards a standard. EDUCATION In relation to the third part, a copy of the letter from the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, dated 9th April was issued Isle of Man College by the Chief Minister’s Office as information to Members Statement on master plan on 14th April this year. 13. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Minister for Education:

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, supplementary for the If she will make a statement on the master plan for her Shirveishagh Tashtee. Department’s Isle of Man College? Allowing for the hard work that has been done, as far as the achievements of the White List are concerned, does the The President: Question 13. Hon. Member for Onchan, Shirveishagh Tashtee not agree that maybe the time is to try Mr Quirk. and get them to stop hiding the numbers of agreements, as far as the White List is concerned, in order to see whether Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. there is a bit of hypocrisy, as far as this is concerned, that this I beg to ask the Question standing in my name, sir. is not being just turned on against small jurisdictions at their expense, against allowing double standards, as far as places The President: This time I call the Minister for such as the US with Delaware and all the other financial Education, Mrs Craine, please. markets that are out there and the City of London, as far as the UK is concerned? The Minister for Education (Mrs Craine): Thank you, Would he consider trying to see whether they would Mr President. actually publish the numbers that are available, to see The Department has developed a master plan for the whether there is an inconsistency, as far as small financial development of the Isle of Man College. The College jurisdictions are concerned, to large international players, currently largely operates with constrained facilities at who are more likely getting on that White List for a very the Willaston campus, together with Elmwood House at low level of agreements. Glencrutchery, utilisation of facilities at The Nunnery and use of remote accommodation at Hills Meadow and Union The President: Minister, Mr Bell. Mills for construction crafts. Through the development master plan we are seeking The Minister: I understand entirely, Mr President, the to facilitate further measured development at the Willaston sentiment behind the Question; but we have got to be realistic campus and then progress further development on our in this, that we are dealing with international power politics Glencrutchery lands to meet identified and future needs. here. It is nice to think of the Isle of Man as being the mouse The first two proposed development phases at Willaston that roared, but we have got to roar pretty loud to bring the campus are to be the development of a new Special Needs US in line with the rest of the world, I think! provision for the College and the redevelopment of the Mr President, there are undoubtedly – and have been over existing construction crafts facility to provide new enlarged the years – double standards on this. There is no question at accommodation in one location. It is currently anticipated all, and I have made this statement many times in this Hon. that the subsequent first phase of new development of our Chamber. What we have got to do, though, is make sure that Glencrutchery development lands will be for art, which will, the Isle of Man continues its commitment to the OECD model in turn, allow for the conversion of the existing art facilities and to the international community standards which are now of Willaston to relieve other pressures in engineering and evolving, and to recognise that the decision which was taken ICT. The future development land gives us the potential to by the G20 in April, which has whitelisted the Isle of Man develop appropriate facilities, depending on the needs of the and declared that we are not a tax haven, is not the end of the College within an established planning framework. road at all; that this debate is going to continue and widen, not Vehicular and pedestrian linkage between campuses and only through G20, but through actions taken by the United the provision of suitable car parking has also been considered States itself, and also, very shortly, through the European and included as part the development master plan. Union and other initiatives that they are taking. This plan is currently progressing in the planning process, We have to be responsive, I think, to those new initiatives following which we will be seeking to advance the design of as they come, Mr President, and continue the drive which the proposed Special Needs and construction crafts facilities we are undertaking at the moment, to try and extend our and plan to return to Tynwald next year for approval to influence into other areas. I highlight, a couple of weeks progress these schemes to construction. ago, my signing a further double tax agreement with Estonia, which takes our number of agreements now up to 15, which The President: Mr Quirk.

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Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. down there. Does that form any part of her master plan? Has I thank the Minister for her comments regarding the she had any discussions with DTI on their relocation from particular site, but could I ask her, as part of the big master that particular site into a more modern building? plan, if she would actually, maybe, release some of the Could I also ask, is it her responsibility for the site at documentation out to Members, so we can support her on , which is the old engineering place; and on the that particular issue? Glencrutchery front, which is towards the workshops and Also, does that particular master plan include the old Project 21, has she identified any land down there that she waterworks at the Greenfield Road site? That is clearly requires or can that land be used for other purposes, because adjacent to the College perimeter and I am wondering if I know it is my last chance? she has had any discussions with the Water Authority about maybe utilising the site for Government purposes. The President: It is, sir. I do not want you taking the excuse of going round every constituency in the Island. The President: Minister, Mrs Craine. Mrs Craine.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, I am content to go back and have a look As I indicated in my original Answer, we do have use of to see what documentation we have that will be able to be land at Hills Meadow and Union Mills for construction crafts. released to Members that will be of any value to them. It is our intention to be able to bring those areas together on Yes, I can confirm that my Department has been in contact the Willaston campus. However, it does present us with a with the Water Authority about the adjacent land. problem as to where the current work that is taking place in construction on the Willaston campus can be relocated, The President: Mr Karran. whilst the potential works, if it goes through planning, and all the appropriate processes, can actually be housed, so it is a Mr Karran: Supplementary, Eaghtyrane. question of moving things around as can be best managed. Would the Shirveishagh Ynsee not also agree that if any The Hon. Member referred to land at Glencrutchery. master plan is to be developed, as far as the Isle of Man I think one thing that each of us is acutely aware of, Mr College is concerned, the issue that this Hon. Court must have President, is that we do not release land until we are put something in the region of about £40 million into the IBS, absolutely sure that we have no further need of it and until which must be ranking as a small white elephant… that she we can be clear that we have no… or all our future needs will go and look at the issue that the Treasury Minister has can be met on the Willaston campus and Glencrutchery, there asked in these Questions, about trying to help the Treasury will be no release of land for any other purpose. Minister by addressing the issue of the future of the IBS, in order that we also bring about a new Government policy The President: Hon. Member, Mr Waft. within this Hon. Court, so that we do not allow vanity over sanity and defending the indefensible? Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. The IBS should be a major part of any package, as far I wonder if the Minister could clarify, with the extension as the review of the College is concerned, in order to make of the special needs facilities at these educational facilities, sure that the taxpayer actually gets value for money for the and the courses that are provided for use with children with services and we are not just trying to defend the indefensible special needs, whether there is a limit on the number of times because of the lack of audit in this Hon. Court to stop the a child with special needs can attend one particular course or nonsense in the first place. can they attend any particular course at any time? Thank you, Mr President. The President: Minister. The President: Minister. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think it is really time that the Hon. Member changed The Minister: I am afraid I do not have the answer to that the record. We have been through this issue with him on with me, Mr President, but I am more than happy to discuss several occasions about the worth of the IBS and I have that question with the Hon. Member afterwards, and see if tried to reassure the Member on many occasions that, in we can answer his question at that time. fact, the work that is being carried out at the IBS now is of considerable benefit to the Isle of Man. There are more degree The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. courses being run now than ever before and I am very pleased to say that the whole issue of higher education is under the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh tell us chairmanship of my hon. colleague, Mr Lowey MLC. what the students’ costs are, per student, as far as part time I think that it is time that the Hon. Member recognised and also full time, as far as the College is concerned, and also that there is a place for higher education in the Island and it the same costs as far as the IBS is concerned: the wages and is progressing and it is being taken into account, along with salaries as far as the breakdown between the two different the provision that is being made at Isle of Man College. institutions which have been brought together? Would the Shirveishagh also tell us the situation, allowing The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. for that, how she can actually develop a proper policy, as far as the strategic long-term needs of the College are concerned, Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. when she will not own up that this was a bad mistake, as far Can I ask the Minister with reference to – although it is as the Isle of Man is concerned, as far as the IBS and good not directly hers – the Hills Meadow training establishment fiscal policy are concerned?

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The President: I doubt that the Minister has those figures, Written Answer 22 in February Tynwald is either – but I will allow the Minister to reply. (a) reinstated in their original position; (b) offered a suitable alternative position; or The Minister: Thank you. (c) dismissed; So if I can take the last part of that question first and say without any further delay? that I was not part of the fiscal policy that made any decisions regarding the IBS, at the time that those decisions were made. The President: Question 14. Hon. Member, Mr However, I have inherited the mantle that includes the IBS Karran. and I am very pleased to have done so. As for the cost per student, I do not have that information Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing with me, sir. in my name.

The President: Mr Turner, Hon. Member. The President: Mrs Craine, Minister for Education.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister for Education (Mrs Craine): Thank you, The Minister spoke of long-term, future needs. Has the Mr President. Department considered long-term and new sites for the Isle I can inform the Hon. Member for Onchan that the person of Man College, given that it is effectively landlocked in its in question has now resigned with effect from 31st May 2009 current location and, in doing so, a new site would free up and therefore the matter is now closed. I decline to give any the existing site for possible future housing needs, given that further information or answer any further questions on the it is located in a residential area? matter.

The President: Mrs Craine, Hon. Member. The President: Mr Karran.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh maybe We believe that the long-term future needs can be met consider, if we can do without such a post for over a year, that adequately on the site that we have, both encompassing the maybe the post should not be replaced, if it is not needed? Willaston campus and taking in the Glencrutchery lands that Would the Shirveishagh also not agree that the danger we have in our possession. is that, once again, you are hiding behind confidentiality, Mr President, I think that one thing we need to be when it is taxpayers’ money, with a substantial amount of conscious of in making any educational provision is that we money that the taxpayer is paying out and, once again, we should not take it out of the area that can be easily accessed. will not address the issues of management that need to be This is on a main bus route, and I believe it is suitably addressed, allowing for the statements of her colleague, located. the Minister for the Treasury, about creating effective and efficient provision of services, if you cover up everything in The President: Final supplementary, Mrs Cannell. these Departments.

Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. The President: The Minister answered the Question on Would the Education Minister like to accept from me the Question Paper. my sincere appreciation and praise to her and the people Minister, do you wish to reply to that? operating and running the Isle of Man College? I attended a day there and went round the College. Will she accept that, The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. in fact, I am so impressed and so pleased with how it has I can confirm that the post is not redundant and will be expanded, the courses now available, and the fact that we advertised in due course. are now able to provide degree courses? Will she take that praise back to the Department? The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for Michael. The President: Minister. Mr Cannan: Would the Minister for Education The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. confirm that the cost of the suspension and related costs is I am very pleased to do so and accept the comments of £125,490? the Hon. Member willingly. The President: Minister.

The Minister: I do not have the figures to be able to Highly paid, suspended person in DoE confirm that, sir. Immediate resolution to situation The President: In that case, Hon. Members… Mr 14. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Cannan. Minister for Education: Mr Cannan: Mr President, a further one. The Minister If she will take immediate action to ensure that the highly wrote to me and told me. paid person employed in her Department who has been suspended on full pay for eight months and referred to in The President: Hon. Members, Question 15.

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The Minister: I do not have those figures in front of me, The President: Mr Callister, Hon. Member of Council. Mr President. Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. In view of the fact that this has now turned out to be a misguided worldwide panic, and the fact that the Minister HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY can book his holiday in Mexico today if he wishes, will he accept that the only beneficiaries resulting from the so-called Possible pandemic flu outbreak swine flu are the company selling intervention products? Will DHSS arrangements he advise the amount that has been spent by the DHSS on advance purchases of vaccine for both this and the equally 15. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to farcical claims made for the so-called bird flu? ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: The President: Mr Teare. Whether his Department will assess the arrangements it has in place for a possible pandemic flu outbreak, and The Minister: I congratulate the Hon. Member on testing their effectiveness in the light of the spread of his 20/20 vision hindsight, sir. If the Department had not Swine Flu from Mexico? proceeded to procure supplies of antivirals, and if it had developed into a flu pandemic, then we would have been The President: Question 15. Hon. Member, Mr quite rightly criticised. I compliment my predecessors for Henderson. putting that order in place. We should not heave a sigh of relief, Mr President, and Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey say, ‘Thank heavens it’s all over! Now we go back to sleep.’ kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. Evidence from previous epidemics would indicate that this is the first phase. If I could use a military expression, it tends The President: Mr Teare, Minister for Health and Social to re-group and then come back with a vengeance during the Security. following winter. The virus itself is expected to mutate, and when it does come back, it is expected to come back in a The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr much stronger and much more virulent form, sir. Teare): Thank you, Mr President. We are continually assessing our preparations for dealing with the flu pandemic in the light of an emerging situation DHSS consultation paper across the globe. We have organised several tabletop Helping the vulnerable simulation exercises, during which we consider how we respond to an evolving pandemic. This is as real life as it 16. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the can get and such exercises have helped us to fine tune our Minister for Health and Social Security: plans. In terms of responding to the situation in Mexico, Further to page 13 of his paper ‘Health and Social Care which has now spread across the world, we have done this in the Isle of Man: Your Opportunity to Influence Future and we have put in place several measures to strengthen Policy’ whether he expects anyone to answer ‘No’ to his our preparedness. I have chaired various early morning question ‘Do you agree that Social Services should help meetings with my senior colleagues, ably supported by those who are vulnerable in our community’? my departmental Member for Health, the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crowe, at which we assessed our level of The President: Question 16. Hon. Member, Mr Gill. preparedness. Appropriate action has been taken, and will be taken, as the situation develops. Mr Gill: Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. The President: Again, the Answer is in the hands of Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Mr Teare. I thank the Ard-shirveishagh for his Answer, but can he confirm that he has tested pre-existing policies and procedures The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr in place for pandemic flu against the current situation, to Teare): Thank you, Mr President. ensure the effectiveness of the original procedures that he Mr President, it is not for me to pre-empt what any has spoken about, and the tabletop exercises? I think that contributor may say in response to this introductory question, fact needs to be made clearer and in more plain speak, the purpose of which is to stimulate thinking on the provision Eaghtyrane. of Social Services, addressed by the further questions in that part of the document, sir. The President: Mr Teare. The President: Mr Gill. The Minister: I am pleased for the opportunity to respond to that. Yes, we have amended, we have altered, some of Mr Gill: Is the Minister telling us that the core activity our plans in the light of the emerging situation. It is a very of any Social Services department, let alone the one under fluid situation and the Department is responding in a fluid his control, is not to help the vulnerable people in the manner, sir. community? If it is not that, what is it then?

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The President: Mr Teare. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. The Minister: The question has to be asked, sir. Let us see what the public think. The President: Mr Teare, Minister for Health and Social Security. The President: Mr Gill. The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr Mr Gill: Does he seriously expect anybody to answer Teare): Thank you, Mr President. no to it, sir? The number of appointments available to the salaried primary dental care service over a six-month period is The President: Mr Teare. approximately 30,000. During the six months to May 2009, a total of 1,385 appointments were cancelled due to a number The Minister: I had to ask the question, sir, just to see of reasons, including sickness and staffing shortages, which what the public thought. represents 4.6 per cent of available appointments. All the patients affected will have been offered further appointments The President: Right – at the earliest opportunity. Although this cancelled appointments figure is small, the Mr Gill: Would the Minister also ask the question, sir, service identified the need to address this, and is currently ‘Should the Health Service help the sick?’? taking a number of actions in this regard. These include continued use of the Government policy for attendance and The President: Mr Gill, let us not just play ping-pong work, including referral of staff to the occupational health across the Court, but ask your next question, sir – change it service, if appropriate; ongoing recruitment of clinical staff, to something else. particularly dental nurses; review of clinical workloads to Mr Gill. ensure that services are provided in the most efficient manner within available resources, given the services’ responsibility Mr Gill: Well, on the same thing, why then does the for providing urgent care during working hours to those Minister not ask, ‘Should doctors look after sick people?’? patients who do not have an NHS dentist, sir. It is the same barking irrelevance, sir! The President: Mr Karran. The President: Mr Teare. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh just clarify his point when he is saying that there are only 4.6 The Minister: The doctors, by definition, sir, are cancellations that have had to be made, as far as the figures clinicians, and they have a job to do – a profession to follow for the last six months. Can the Shirveishagh also explain to – which is caring for the sick. this Hon. Court that this will not take account of the fact that, because of the total lack of any decent amount of emergency The President: Mr Gill. time for dental care within the Island, a number of persons have had to be thrown off and told that their appointments Mr Gill: Is the professional duty of social workers have been cancelled in order to try and give sufficient time and social care staff not to look after the vulnerable in the to emergency cover care? Has he taken any count as far as community, sir? Does he have to ask that question? that is concerned? Can he give some assurance to this Hon. Court that we The President: Mr Teare. are actually getting value for money, as far as this service is concerned, allowing for the way it is managed and allowing The Minister: As I said in my original Answer, sir, it was for the fact that what he is saying in this Hon. Court is not designed to stimulate debate. It has stimulated some debate what is being said outside this Hon. Court, where the reality this morning, sir. actually is the appalling situation of trying to get a dental appointment, as far as this Island is concerned, in its Health Services?

Dental service The President: Mr Teare. Cancelled appointments; action to improve The Minister: I think the Hon. Member should also 17. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the recognise that we cannot produce clinicians, dentists and Minister for Health and Social Security: dental nurses out of thin air. There is a shortage throughout the UK of people with these skills. What I have said is that How many patients’ appointments in the last six months we will consider allocating extra units of activity to the have been cancelled due to a dentist or dental nurse not general dental service and to try and make up the shortfall. I being available and what action needs to be taken to get am aware of the position and I feel the Department is taking a better dental service for all? proactive steps to deal with it, sir.

The President: Now, in the case, Hon. Members, we will The President: Mr Karran. go on to Question 17. Mr Karran, please. Mr Karran: Supplementary, Eaghtyrane.

DHSS consultation paper – Helping the vulnerable Dental service – Cancelled appointments; action to improve Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 947 T126

Would the Shirveishagh explain, if there is such a for nearly two decades, is not the place to be trying to justify shortage, why are dentists ending up doing paperwork, the unrealistic and totally rubbish services that are being administration work, instead of doing dentistry? Why are provided, allowing for the fact that the people deserve to dental nurses ending up doing sterilising duties and other have their teeth protected, so they can keep them for as long duties, instead of doing the dental nurse facilities? Why as possible. are we ending up with a situation where we are spending a fortune, as far as the setup that we have got at the present time, The President: Mr Teare. that is not providing the services that are required, as far as the Island’s dental needs, and will he, instead of trying to defend The Minister: It is quite interesting, the argument in that the indefensible, help his Treasury Minister by looking at the supplementary question put forward by the Hon. Member top end of the management, as far as this scheme is and also who has just resumed his seat. What he said is that if dental having a clear policy review of maybe helping to encourage nurses do not do the sterilising procedures, then we will the general dental practitioners to get back into providing a employ other people to do the job. You can just imagine what public service for us, instead of the directly-paid service we would happen in respect of the headcount and the headcap, have got, which has been an unmitigated disaster, as far as and costs as well. dental care for the people of the Isle of Man? I think, once again, it is a good illustration of how it is always easier to do somebody else’s job than do your own, The President: Mr Teare. sir.

The Minister: I feel that the dental service provided to The President: Final supplementary, Mr Karran. people in the Isle of Man compares very favourably with the service provided in the adjacent jurisdiction. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not It is easy to have a pop at paperwork, bureaucracy and have the thought process to consider the fact that you employ everything else, but what I would say is that he has talked somebody on a lesser pay, who is not trained as a dental about sterilising here. If we were to have, in effect, a central nurse, to do the whole practice’s work, as far as sterilisation sterilising unit, we would have to transport all the equipment is concerned? backwards and forwards. This would entail extra cost, as Would he not answer the question about, with there being well, so all we are doing is moving costs from one hand to such a short supply of dentists, why is he allowing them to another, robbing from Peter to pay Paul. spend so much time doing administration and paperwork that could be done by clerks within the dental service, or is The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member. this just again trying to turn black into white, just like we saw with the Minister of Education over the whole scandal Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. of £40 million being spent on the IBS, not being part of a Would the Minister consider carrying out a peer audit on good successful policy, as far as that issue is concerned for the salaried dentists, compared to the dentists which were in the College in the Isle of Man? private practice before they left to go on to Denplan? The President: Mr Teare. The President: Mr Teare. The Minister: It is always difficult to prioritise resources, The Minister: I am certainly prepared to consider that. I sir, I do acknowledge that. However, I have said in answer have been looking at the provision of dental services for some to a previous supplementary that I will consider conducting time. I have been out, I have met with some of the salaried a peer audit or having a peer audit undertaken. dental service: I have met with members of the general dental It is always easy to say, too, that a professional should service, as well, and I feel that it is an area where we could not be filling in this piece of paper but nevertheless, in many have a review there but I will discuss the position with my instances, they are required to keep these records by their colleagues and take professional advice, sir. Royal Colleges. It is not something that we can do ourselves, so it is all very well saying, ‘No, you cannot fill out that form The President: Mr Karran. and get somebody else to do it for you’, but they may have a professional obligation to do so, sir. Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh not agree that, once again, the art form of Ministers in this Court to try The President: Mr Anderson. and manipulate and get away from actually addressing the issues of reality? The fact is, did any Hon. Member in this Mr Anderson: Point of order, Mr President. Twice Court talk about a central sterilisation unit? What we were the Hon. Member for Onchan has mentioned a figure of talking about is the issue of having trained dental nurses £40 million for the International Business School. Can he doing a job and other people being employed to look after substantiate that figure or withdraw it, please? the sterilisation, but would he also not agree that the fact is how much paperwork and other administration work are The President: Now… dentists, who are trained to look after people’s teeth, should be left to do that and other people should be looking after Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would be happy to get the the administration? accounts from the previous Minister to show how much Finally, would the Shirveishagh not also agree that the money has been spent on the IBS. fact is, they talk about the UK that had a policy of killing off the dental care in the National Health Service in the UK The President: A final supplementary to Mr Teare.

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Mr Karran: A final supplementary to Mr Teare. £43,100 for executive Government. These payments are now Will the Shirveishagh go back and find out what is part of the budgets of these Departments and are not now actually happening in his Department, allowing for the fact centrally resourced. that he is one of the Members that I have most respect for, The additional funding over the 10 years was allocated, with the amount of pressure that he is under, because he as follows: £184,500 for the DHSS; £140,000 for executive has got a lot to deal with. But, talking about the issue of Government; £75,000 for the Department of Home Affairs; professional standards in their different Royal Colleges, will £10,000 for Treasury; and £7,500 for Education. It should be he also do an audit of the amount of paperwork that needs noted that when the responsibility for drugs and alcohol was to be done by the dentist and how much is being done in transferred from executive Government to the Department of administration, that does not need the dentist to do, where Home Affairs, the budget was also transferred. they could be out dealing with people’s teeth, breaking down the waiting list even further and maybe saving more people The President: Mr Gill. from having extractions that do not want them, because there is not the time in the present setup for the hours that… for Mr Gill: There are a lot of figures in there. Going back the 55 minutes that is required, in order to save a tooth over to the bottom line, though, £5.4 million, would the Minister ripping it out? advise us what we have actually seen… the benefits from that huge outlay, sir? The President: Mr Teare. The President: Mr Earnshaw. The Minister: I am certainly aware of the Hon. Member’s well expressed and deeply held concern, and I know that that The Minister: It is a huge outlay, as the Hon. Member is not in isolation. I do share this concern with general dental advises. It has been spread over 10 years of time: there is treatment, and we have tried to float a measure to improve an awful lot of work that has been done by our partners in dental health on the Island in the past, but to no avail. partnership throughout Government. The Department of I did say that we would look at alternative methods and Home Affairs through the Police services, the Department try and bring alternative procedures forward to deal with the of Health through the work they do there, the Department appalling state of dental health on the Island. I will consider of Education and some work by the Treasury, as well. So it the way forward, sir, and see what can be done, but this is yet is not very easy to quantify that in the answer to a question another area where we do have pressing problems. like this.

The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member.

HOME AFFAIRS Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie, the Minister for Home Affairs, maybe Drug and Alcohol Strategy circulate a breakdown of these figures? Do these figures Breakdown of expenditure since 2000 include the issue of how much we pay out to the different organisations, both in the voluntary and in the public 18. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill ) to ask the sector? Minister for Home Affairs: Can the Shirveishagh also explain where are the systems of audit and accountability within this £5.4 million? Having Further to his Written Answer to my Oral Question (No. had a heroine addict having a cup of tea at my house on 28) of April Tynwald relating to the Drug and Alcohol Saturday morning, and the problems that he has got as far Strategy, if he will provide a breakdown of how the £5.4 as rehabilitation is concerned, I do not think we are doing a million has been spent since 2000? very successful job, as far as this issue is concerned. What policies has he got to make sure that we actually, in future, The President: Question 18. Hon. Member for Rushen, spend money on the Drug and Alcohol Strategy that is Mr Gill. not for self-serving bureaucrats and actually provides the requirements that we need for the strategically-important Mr Gill: Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my policy decisions, in order to save this Island from the cancer ennym. of drug addiction for future generations?

The President: This time the Answer is in the hands of The President: Mr Earnshaw. the Minister for Home Affairs, please. The Minister: First of all, can I begin by saying I am not The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Earnshaw): Thank the keeper of all these funds. The various Departments who you, Eaghtyrane. run their own various services manage their own funding. The £5.4 million is made up of an annual budget of The DHA is certainly a part of that, but not necessarily the £497,000 agreed by Tynwald in 1999, plus additional major player. funding in certain years for particular purposes, which has We have got new legislation that is coming forward. averaged £41,700 per annum over the 10-year period. The There is a lot of activity within our Department. The Police funding of £497,000 per annum was allocated to five separate are very active on the streets at the moment, as is well- areas of Government, as follows: £208,000 for the DHSS; publicised in the newspapers and on the radio. We have had £177,600 for the Department of Home Affairs; £30,500 for a lot of arrests in the last six months, so I think there are a the Department of Education; £37,500 for the Treasury; and lot of movements in that respect. The Strategy has been set

Dental service – Cancelled appointments; action to improve Drug and Alcohol Strategy – Breakdown of expenditure since 2000 Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 949 T126 regarding the Drug and Alcohol Strategy; what we are doing structure of the self-serving bureaucrats who run this section now is implementing it. of Government? What initiatives is he, as the new Minister, going to take in order that we start putting the audit and The President: Mr Gill, Hon. Member. accountability into the systems so that we actually get good value for money? Mr Gill: Thank you. Finally, Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh assure this Hon. Would the Minister – I appreciate he has inherited Court that the recent arrests are nothing to do with the fact the ownership of the Drug and Alcohol Strategy and his of the Drug and Alcohol Strategy? The fact is that we have predecessor described it as a logical move, to move it to the done away with the drugs squad, as it was when we pushed DHA, which is ironic because it is entirely illogical – when he the original motion over 23 years ago for the thing, and can says, ‘It is not easy to quantify,’ will he give us some comfort he not assure us that he has got his finger on the pulse, as that at least the Drug Strategy and the Alcohol Strategy is far as this issue is concerned, because the Hon. Member for reviewed on a value-for-money basis? Also, is there actually Rushen has a very good Question down here? a purpose to it or could it be stopped and the good work that other agencies do – which I think is incorporated under the The President: Mr Earnshaw. funding – is better enhanced by further funding? The Minister: As far as value for money is concerned, I The President: Mr Earnshaw. want to talk about that first, Eaghtyrane. I think the question is it is hard to evaluate this because we have got to ask ourselves The Minister: What I was saying originally is we what if we had not had this policy in place: what might have cannot encapsulate 10 years’ work into a few sentences. It is been the implications then? A lot of money has had to be spent reviewed regularly and there is a lot of work going on. on this, has been spent on this, and it is probably because it Sorry, could the Hon. Member repeat the last part of his had to be spent on it. We set out on this course of action. question, please? As far as ownership is concerned, as far as I am concerned this is across Government. There are several Departments The President: Mr Gill. involved with this and each one has some responsibility for reviewing their own areas of responsibility and making their Mr Gill: It is the revolutionary idea of reviewing whether own decisions, as appropriate, and I think just to try and nail we actually get value for money, or if there is any purpose in it down into nice little compartments is not something that maintaining it or, indeed, if the funding that could be saved can easily be done. from the unnecessary bureaucracy could be better located on direct provision of services, sir.

The President: Mr Earnshaw. Old prison Plans for use The Minister: Yes, well, I am pleased… the Hon. Member has a lot of issues regarding drugs and alcohol (Members: 19. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Ooh! Allegations!) that he is constantly discussing with my Minister for Home Affairs: Chief Executive and others in our Department. I am pleased he is coming to see us about this, so we can explain more What plans he has to make use of the old prison and over fully about what is going on. So, I welcome that and I think what timescale? it is going to take place very shortly. The invitation has been out there for quite some time, but I understand it is going to The President: Question 19. Mr Karran. happen very shortly. If he is advocating that we should give up this Strategy, I Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing think what he needs to do is bring a motion before Tynwald in my name. so that we can debate the issue. The President: Minister for Home Affairs, Mr The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Earnshaw.

Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh not agree that the The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Earnshaw): Thank issue is that the Hon. Member for Rushen is just trying to you, Eaghtyrane. get some clarity of who has ownership? Would he actually As Hon. Members may already be aware, a proposal exists clarify… He says about a review… Who is doing a review? that two of the prison buildings on the site should be placed on Who is responsible for the review, as far as the fact that the the Protected Buildings Register by the Department of Local Drug and Alcohol Strategy has spend £5.4 million over the Government and the Environment. Since the proposal was last several years? Can the Shirveishagh circulate to Hon. put forward, my Department has undertaken research into Members in this Hon. Court a detailed breakdown of how placing an objection to the registration and we have recently this money has come about and where it has been spent, submitted the report on our objections to the Secretary of the in order that Members can be able to look at this? Can the Planning Committee. Any future plans for the site will very Shirveishagh also explain to this Hon. Court how does he much depend on the decision made by that Committee, which reassure us that we are actually getting effective decision- should be made at their meeting on 26th May. making, working on the priorities of need of the people who have the drug and alcohol addiction and not on the The President: Mr Karran.

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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh son another Department, we want to go through that process but Cooishyn Sthie, the Minister for Home Affairs, not agree a lot hinges on which route we are left with, whether these that this seems to be the dead hand of executive. We have a buildings are registered or not. building there that is lying empty: the likes of the women’s and youth wing could quite easily be used – for little or no The President: Mrs Cannell, Hon. Member. fiscal cost to the taxpayer – for the homeless, allowing for the fact that there is a crisis out there, or are we are going to see a Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. situation where we have the ‘dog-in-the-manger’ attitude? Is the Minister aware, in respect of the provision of the Will the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie come back to site being made available for homeless people, which has this Hon. Court and tell us what is he going to do as far as been referred to him and he has made comment on, that it this building is concerned? Will he consider allowing the is a fact that a homeless shelter that was opened in Harris homeless to use part of this building as a stopgap measure, Terrace in Douglas has subsequently closed – instead of allowing good assets of the taxpayer lying fallow, so that we end up having to knock it down at great expense Mr Malarkey: Because there was nobody in there! at a later date when it could have been some public use to society? Mrs Cannell: – because there is no demand for the same? The President: Mr Earnshaw. Mr Malarkey: Hear, hear. The Minister: Well, I will certainly be doing my best regarding this site. I do not agree that it is the dead hand of The President: Mr Earnshaw. Government at all. There are ideas that I have in my head but we cannot really do very much until we have resolved this The Minister: Yes, I am well aware of that fact, issue of whether parts of the site are going to be registered Eaghtyrane, and I think it could prove a lot of things. I think or not. Depending on the outcome of that – and we should that is outwith the Question today, but I thank the Hon. know this, as I said in my original answer, on or around 19th Member for Douglas East for her comments. It is something May – we will be able to move forward with a better idea of I am well aware of. what plans our plans are. Regarding suitability for the homeless: the notes that The President: Mr Karran. I have here, Eaghtyrane, are that the Department has no Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, is the Shirveishagh aware that revenue funding to provide any heating or lighting to the the fact is that the planning which the Hon. Member was building (Interjection) and it has received no maintenance party to on the homeless shelter in Harris Terrace was not work since it was left empty last August. I do have to say that, allowed to open before nine o’clock at night? prior to that, it did not have much maintenance work for quite The fact is that you try and be homeless on a cold October, some time because we were obviously building a new Prison November or December night with nowhere to go and you and there was not much point in spending money on the old will have the same effect if you have not found somewhere one over that period of time, so many of the buildings are in by there… you are either in the Accident and Emergency a poor state of repair and would be unsuitable, if not unsafe, department or you are in a prison cell and that is the reality for habitation without significant work and expenditure. of the situation over the homeless! Would the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie not also agree The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member. that the homeless will not be worried whether it is going through a registration process? The fact is that the homeless Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. complex there is at the present time is under notice, as far Would the Minister report back via circulation of the as its present address – and, thankfully, the developers have information he receives from the Planning Committee’s given that address and I must congratulate them for their decision after 26th May meeting? Following that, and if that social spirit – but that building could be used with no cost, no information is in the affirmative – that the registrations can liability to his Department, or the taxpayers, simply allowing be released from that property – will he then make moves to a short-term rental agreement for the likes of the youth and have that whole site transferred to the Department of Local the women’s section for such a facility, with little or no cost Government and the Environment for urgent redevelopment to the charity itself. Would he consider looking into this, or into, say, first-time buyers’ housing, sir? will it take a motion in Tynwald at the next month’s Tynwald in order for his Department to look at this issue, instead of The President: Mr Earnshaw. trying to dodge the fact that we have a very big building that is lying empty, that should be used – The Minister: Yes, Eaghtyrane, I am content to come back and report and make some sort of a statement, if that is The President: Mr Karran – what the Hon. Member wishes me to do. I haven’t a problem doing that. Mr Karran: – to maximise the taxpayers’ return? Regarding the option for the Department of Local Government and the Environment taking over the site, The President: Mr Earnshaw to reply. it is a possibility – early days yet. As I said, there are possibilities that we, as a Department, who own the site at The Minister: Yes, I think rather than me looking at it, the moment, may wish to consider so, before we transfer to I think the Hon. Member needs to go and look at it. It is in

Old prison – Plans for use Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 951 T126 a pretty poor condition and I would very much doubt even which is examining the possibility of registration of the the homeless would want to stay in there. building?

Mr Karran: Have you been in it? The President: Mr Earnshaw.

The Minister: Yes, I have. Have you been in it? The Minister: All I can say is I am not closing off any options at the moment, Eaghtyrane. Mr Karran: I have been in it. The President: Mr Houghton. The Minister: I am not quite sure which Hon. Member – (Laughter and interjections) Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. With regard to the prefabricated custody block that was Mr Karran: I know I have been in it with a few of erected some seven or eight years ago with the promise by you! the then Minister for Home Affairs, Mr Bell, that it could be moved on elsewhere… With regard to that section of the The Minister: I am not quite sure… (Laughter) buildings in the old Prison, has the Department considered having that transferred to a site at Police Headquarters for The President: Mr Earnshaw. an overflow capacity of their over-used cellblock, in order for that to have best use and in line with the promise that The Minister: I am not sure which Hon. Member my was given us some time before that that building could be colleague was referring to who was party to this in the first moved? place but I do not think it was me! Has the Department looked into that? This is a cost-saving There were planning issues that were put down regarding venture, other than the fact of its conveyance a couple of Harris Terrace and there were reasons for that (Interjection) hundred metres up the road for onward use. and, whatever the rights and wrongs of that, they had to be abided by. The facts of the matter are as Mrs Cannell, the The President: Mr Earnshaw. Hon. Member for East Douglas, points out: it was not being used to any great extent and it has ended up not being used The Minister: The Hon. Member for North Douglas at all. makes a good and valid point and the matter has been considered. I am not quite sure to what depth – I think it is The President: Mrs Christian, Hon. Member. probably before my time – but it is a prefabricated unit. It is portable, but I am advised that the costs of dismantling it Mrs Christian: Would the Minister accept, just for and reassembling it elsewhere would be more than it would the record, that it is not, in fact, the Planning Committee cost to build new units, which seems rather a shame to me; I which will make any decision on registration and that his am sure others will share that sentiment. I am not certain – I information is incorrect in that regard? have not got this as part of my brief – that it complies with up-to-date standards now. The President: Mr Earnshaw. The President: Mr Karran, final supplementary, sir. The Minister: Sorry, I could not quite hear the Hon. Member there. Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie not agree that, by arranging a short-term lease for the The President: Mrs Christian to reply. Prison with the homeless, that would not affect any strategic long-term policies, as far as the Government is concerned, Mrs Christian: Would the Minister confirm, for the as far as the long-term use of the site? Has the Shirveishagh record, that the information he has with regard to the been around the major provider, as far as the facilities of the decision-making in respect of registration does not lie with homeless at the present time? If he has, then his reply as far the Planning Committee? as the state of the women’s section, the youth section and the section that the Hon. Member for North Douglas has been The President: Mr Earnshaw. talking about, is in a far better kind of accommodation than where they are at the present time. The Minister: Yes, with the Department and I do agree. If he does not agree, will he raise it with the Council of Thank you. Ministers, that this is a commonsense proposal that a charity that is providing a service to this section of the community, The President: Mr Henderson. where we can help without it being of great cost or where we need any consultants to tell us how to do it? Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Will the Shirveishagh formally acknowledge that, on The President: Mr Earnshaw. several occasions, possibly during his tenure as Minister and certainly previous to that, both North Douglas MHKs The Minister: I know that the Hon. Member for Onchan, have made consistent calls for this site, registration or not, my colleague, Mr Karran, has great sensitivity in this area. to be turned over for sheltered housing? Will he make those I think I do as well. I think we all share that, regarding representations known to the right quarters and the process homelessness.

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I have to say, Eaghtyrane, I just do not think that prison Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. cells are an appropriate place (Interjection by Mr Karran) I thank the Shirveishagh for his Answer, but is he aware, for the homeless to be lodged. at the minute, of the growing tendency within the construction industry, whereby organisations are actually beating down wage offers, so that, in fact, applicants applying for posts in certain areas of the construction industry are applying for jobs TRADE AND INDUSTRY which are attracting the same wages as five and six years ago. In effect, that organisation does not receive any applicants, Work Permit Committee they can legitimately apply for staff to be brought in from Permits for brick/blocklayers across, who are quite happy to work at 70p for a block, rather than the current going rate of around £1.20 or £1.30 and have 20. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) access to the work permit system. to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: Would he agree to look at this particular situation, given in fact that the figures that he supplied by way of Written (1) Whether the Work Permit Committee is granting work Questions this morning, which I am grateful for, does indicate permits for brick/blocklayers; that we may have a problem here, where local labour is being and dialled out, as a consequence of poor wage offers. (2) if so, given the amount of unemployed people currently on the books why? The President: Minister for Trade and Industry.

The President: Question 20. Hon. Member, Mr The Minister: I understand clearly the point that has Henderson. been made by the Hon. Member and it is one which the Work Permit Committee do have credence of… they do Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. pay attention to these kinds of matters when they are raised Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I with them. beg to ask the Question in my name. If the Hon. Member has any specific examples he would like to bring to me, I would be happy to make sure they are The President: I call on the Minister for Trade and referred to the Work Permit Committee. Industry, Mr Cretney. The President: Mr Henderson. The Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Cretney): Thank you, Mr President. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. All work permit applications are considered on an Again, thank you to the Shirveishagh for his further individual basis, so it is impossible to answer part (1) of the Question in quite the way it is asked. The Control positive response in this. Of course, Eaghtyrane, I will furnish of Employment Act, in subsequent Regulations, clearly what information I have, but, for the public record, will the sets out a number of factors which need to be considered Shirveishagh agree to look at the situation I have illustrated, when determining the outcome of an application. It is a whereby his relevant officers will assess the construction matter of fact that I have asked for additional scrutiny of industry for wages paid by the various companies in operation applications relating to certain sectors of the economy. I here and assess the situation of how they employ their staff have asked for these measures as I am acutely aware of the and a breakdown of where those staff are employed from, rise in unemployment within those sectors over the last year. locally and otherwise, Eaghtyrane? Construction is one of those sectors. As a result of requesting greater scrutiny, all applications for permits, within the The President: Mr Cretney. affected sectors, are automatically elevated to the Work Permit Committee for consideration. The Minister: Mr President, unfortunately, I did not, but Since my appointment I have introduced a policy of I thought I had made clear in my previous response, they myself and officers from my Department meeting with the already do that. Committee regularly to ensure they have all the relevant information, particularly with regard to up-to-date labour The President: Mr Karran. market information, available to them. Whilst the Hon. Member has not specified a time period to be covered by his Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh not agree that when Question, I believe that looking at permit applications since we are talking about wages and conditions, it is not only in the start of this year illustrates the situation quite clearly. the building industry; many people are applying for jobs and Since 1st January 2009, my Department has received are not getting the same wages and conditions that they were applications from six individuals for work permits as a couple of years ago? Is it not a fact that it is important that bricklayers. Of these, four were refused due to the availability we have a reflection on that, as far as the requirements, as far of Isle of Man workers and the remaining two were renewal as Government is concerned, so that we understand what is applications which were approved for a further 12 months. really happening out there in the private sector? I therefore believe that in construction, and other sectors, my policy initiatives have positively contributed The President: Mr Cretney. to a reduction of 38 people from the unemployed register in April. The Minister: All I would say is that I am aware of the real world, which is going on outside and the economy and I The President: Mr Henderson. think, you know, without defending employers, who wish to

Old prison – Plans for use Work Permit Committee – Permits for brick/blocklayers Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 953 T126 act in an irresponsible or unreasonable manner, some people are actually in the College and then not actively able to are content and pleased to have jobs at this time, but I do participate in terms of the work which has been undertaken not believe that we should be encouraging or be supporting by the particular construction firms. abuse, if I could put it in such a way, of the workforce So the new arrangements which have been arrived at, by employers who act in an unreasonable manner. If any have been received well by the construction sector. However, instances are drawn to my attention, certainly in relation to we need to be aware that we are in challenging times and, minimum wage, which they have been from time to time, clearly, one of the reasons that myself, as Minister for Trade they are properly investigated. and Industry, my colleague, the Minister for the Treasury and the Minister for Local Government have been meeting with The President: Mr Henderson. the construction sector, is to do whatever we can to continue to support them, as it is an important sector. The importance Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. of the sector, I think, in particular, is that money which is Would the Shirveishagh agree, given the questions fed into the construction sector does go around about and and supplementaries this morning, to make use of the help others. information that he says he has assessed, which will show some employment practices, although there is nothing to A Member: Hear, hear. my attention, whereby anything under the minimum wage has been charged? Nonetheless, the practice where local people may well be purposely dialled out of the employment market currently VENDA with regard to low wages being charged, would he agree to Contract and financial benefit for Island work with the construction industry and the organisations to see how they can improve the situation, so as to assist the 21. The Hon. Member for Malew and Santon (Mr Cregeen) local employment market? to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry:

The President: Mr Cretney, same question again, sir. (1) What his predicted cost is for the contract with VENDA; The Minister: It is, Mr President, but if I can just say (2) who in his Department made initial contact with that my Department, together with Treasury and Local VENDA and on what date; and Government and the Environment, in particular, do work (3) what the predicted financial benefit to the Island is? with the construction sector. If matters are brought to our attention that potential abuse is taking place, then that is a The President: Question 21. Hon. Member for Malew matter which will be taken seriously. and Santon, Mr Cregeen. The Hon. Member said he was not aware of this situation regarding the minimum wage. Well, I can tell him that there Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. have been examples, where persons have attempted to pay I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. lower than the minimum wage and when that is brought to our attention, it is something which is acted upon. In the example The President: Again, I call Mr Cretney to reply. which the Hon. Member refers to, I do not believe anybody in here would wish to see local firms in the construction sector The Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Cretney): trying to dial out, as he describes, local workers. If instances Thank you, Mr President. of that were brought to our attention, I am sure and I know The project to which the Hon. Member refers is intended – I know – that the Work Permit Committee would see that to aid local retailers to utilise the opportunity offered by as an abuse and would act accordingly. Internet shopping, giving Manx consumers greater choice to buy locally. My Department has structured this project in The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. such a manner that it also provides substantial opportunities for local service providers, including IT, marketing and Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. photography businesses. Could I ask the Minister if his Department has dialogue VENDA was selected following research into the needs with the Employers’ Federation and can I ask has he had any of local retailers and consumers, as well as the capabilities response from that particular organisation or any concerns of local and international IT companies. VENDA provides on that? proven Internet shopping solutions to both leading worldwide Is he aware of any issues where the bricklayers themselves, organisations, such as the BBC, Laura Ashley, De Beers, who employ apprentices, are finding it more difficult to keep amongst many others, as well as hundreds of small those apprentices retained? What would his view be on that businesses similar to those we are seeking to help locally. to maybe bring the trainees back into the DTI? All Hon. Members received a letter detailing this project, its benefits, plus the analysis, consultation and approval The President: Mr Cretney. process undertaken, prior to its commencement, from me on 8th May. The Minister: Well, the view I have in relation to With regard to the first part of the Question, the total cost apprentices at the moment is that those in the construction of the contract with VENDA will be £264,000 over the initial sector are very happy with the arrangements which have been two years. The contract involves VENDA providing up to agreed with the Department of Trade and Industry, where our 100 websites for local retailers, and a high quality shopping support goes to the construction sector when their apprentices portal to encourage local consumers, businesses and others to

Work Permit Committee – Permits for brick/blocklayers VENDA – Contract and financial benefit for Island 954 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Oral Answers visit these websites and purchase goods locally. This contract Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. includes the development, operation and maintenance of the Is the Minister aware that there are at least two companies shopping portal, plus the hosting of the 100 websites. on the Isle of Man who are capable of doing this work (A Also included in the contract is for VENDA to provide for Member: Hear, hear.) and who have voiced their concerns training sessions to local service providers, enabling them to regarding this? help local businesses maximise this opportunity. At the initial My other concern is: why did your Chief Executive two-year period my Department will pay £1,000 per month to contact VENDA and ask them to go to China with him? host and maintain the shopping portal. Participating retailers There seems a definite conflict here between what is good will enter into contractual arrangement directly with VENDA for local businesses as an area of e-commerce, that we are for £49.99 per month, which will include the operation trying to promote and yet your Department has done down and hosting of each retailer’s website. My Department has two companies on the Isle of Man (Two Members: Hear, negotiated this rate for retailers, which represents a saving hear.) in preference to a company in the UK? (A Member: of £10 per month, compared to VENDA’s normal price. In Hear, hear.) What value to the Isle of Man is that? total, my Department has negotiated savings of £28,000 in A further point is: why did your Department seem to think the first two years, plus thousands of pounds per year for that it had to have an FD 8 waiver so it did not have to go operating the shopping portal and £120 per year per retailer through the financial regulations and why was it signed and thereafter. Therefore, this contract collectively represents put to Treasury in January? Was it such an important issue a substantial discount compared with VENDA’s normal for your Department to rush through? charges and provides good value for money. The contract is with VENDA (Isle of Man) Ltd, a The President: Mr Cretney. wholly-owned subsidiary of the VENDA Group, which is headquartered in London. All employees of this subsidiary The Minister: If I can answer the final point first, it will, of course, pay both National Insurance and Income Tax certainly has not been rushed through. This is something on the Island. which has been considered for a considerable amount of With regard to the second part of the Question, my time. Indeed, we hoped to have something up and running Chief Executive first met with the Chairman of VENDA on for Christmas last year but unfortunately we did not meet 14th August 2007. At that time, VENDA was considering that timescale. establishing an Isle of Man subsidiary. Part of the If I can answer the question in relation to the Hon. responsibilities of my Chief Executive and his officers is to Member’s allegations about my Chief Executive and his encourage successful businesses such as VENDA to invest potential conflict with VENDA and the visit to China, I completely refute such allegations. in the Island. This was one such meeting. If I can answer the question in relation to the local As a result, when this project developed, my Department providers, the unfortunate position is that it would take a was able to engage with VENDA at a senior level to first considerable amount of time and a considerable amount of understand VENDA’s fit with our needs and then subsequently money, if it were at all possible, to achieve the availability to negotiate a contract that met our needs. and the scale of the operation that VENDA has already in With regard to the third part of the Question, the principal place. We have a world leader, in terms of VENDA, and why planned benefit is to aid the independent retail sector, which should our retailers not have the very best opportunity at a employs approximately 1,200 people locally out of the 3,000 time when they most need it? employed in retail on the Island. Looking further afield to the United Kingdom, in the three The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. months to 31st December 2008, the retail sector contracted slightly, but Internet sales grew by over 25 per cent and that Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. trend has continued. Sales to local consumers by UK and Could I ask the Minister if he could give us the other Internet retailers continues to grow, costing valuable programme of what consultation he actually had with the revenues for local retailers, in turn costing the Isle of Man service providers which are currently on the Island? There profits, jobs and taxes. Without prompt and decisive action are a number of them which are excellent and I just wonder and leadership, these economic and fiscal losses will grow. what your Department did to consult those service providers Analysis of the project, confirmed with Treasury, indicates before they actually chose this particular company. Could he that if this project only retains 10 jobs out of the 1,200 in the give us an idea of what consultation did take place? Island’s independent retailer sector over a period of 10 years, then it will have more than paid for itself. I am confident it The President: Mr Cretney. will exceed this figure. Furthermore, it will help local retailers and products to generate revenues in the UK and beyond, The Minister: I am answering that in the next Question. bringing additional benefits to our economy. Also it will I am also answering the point that the Hon. Member for provide revenues for local service providers, it will lay the Malew and Santon asked, as part of his supplementary, in continued growth of e-business and the delivery of public the next Question. and private services to the benefit of citizens and businesses. It offers the potential to build a strategic relationship with The President: Mr Watterson. a major UK business, which is working to help us attract relevant investors to the Island. As a result, I am confident Mr Watterson: Would the Minister agree that this project this project will pay for itself a number of times over. appears to be very much over specified? It is rather a Rolls Royce solution to the needs of local retailers, who ultimately The President: Mr Cregeen. rely on footfall, rather than Internet sales, for their business.

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What investigation was done, before an FD 8 waiver was The Minister: They do not have to sign up. applied for, as to whether capacity could be built within the existing local firms to see whether that could be achieved? Mr Cannan: Yes, they did!

The President: Mr Cretney. The Minister: They do not have to sign up! They have recognised that this is an advantage to their business. The Minister: I think it will be demonstrated and (Interjection) Unfortunately, the one company in particular, in anybody who has read any of the background literature, my opinion, took action in advance of seeing the presentation which goes around this, or seen the presentations that have and I think it would have been better if they had seen the been made, will see that this element of business enterprise presentation before they circulated Hon. Members. actually assists footfall. It does not detract from footfall, it actually assists footfall. The President: Mr Houghton. In relation to the FD 8, where the waiver… as I have said already, I am answering that in the next Question. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister, therefore, noting his last statement The President: We will reach the next Question, so we that he made to this Court, agree to meet with that local will go on to Question 23. service provider, or any other service provider, with interested Mr Watterson. Members of Tynwald and his Department, so that these issues can be thrashed out? There is an awful lot of uncertainty in Mr Cregeen: Mr President, a supplementary! this particular area.

Mr Quirk: Oh, come on, Mr President. It’s totally unfair The Minister: There is no uncertainty. here. Mr Houghton: Would he agree to meet all together in The President: But, hold on. Two supplementaries have one room so that these points can be cleared? been asked and Mr Cretney has already indicated he will have a further Answer at the next Question. The President: Mr Cretney. Nevertheless, if that is the way you want it, Mr Cregeen. The Minister: The contract has been signed and we are carrying it out. Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. As a Member who actually did attend the presentation, I Mr Houghton: That is not an answer, sir! was not impressed by it. The President: Mr Quirk. A Member: Neither was I. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Cregeen: I also went to see the local providers, who do Could I ask the Minister a direct question: are the DTI a very good job. They supply these services (Mr Houghton: paying for the development of the portal site? Hear, hear.) to major local companies, (A Member: Hear, If they are paying, is the Department to retain the portal hear.) and I do not consider that his Department consulted site under the DTI banner? What will it be costing in future directly with any of these providers. From what I understand, if this scheme – or the hundred applicants… is not taken up? you approached – Is he prepared to cover those that are not taken up and could he indicate to us how many of the hundred were offered… The President: Mr Cregeen, a question, sir. because I was at the presentation as well and it was like pyramid selling, as far as I am concerned, to get the first Mr Cregeen: Yes. Did your Department approach a local hundred in and that is why the particular companies are company in Castletown and ask them for their consideration, coming in, to find out what is going on. rather than individuals who actually use these services? A Member: Hear, hear. The President: Mr Cretney. The President: Mr Cretney. The Minister: My Department did a lot of work in advance of getting to where we are now. Part of that included The Minister: In due course, Mr President, I will read – which I am going to answer in the next Question – advice some of the comments that I have got back, which show that from the leading service provider on the Island. there are two sides to this argument. I am holding those until It also undertook a considerable amount of work in terms the next response, because it is not just one-sided, as the Hon. of looking at other offerings currently available. One of the Member seems to think. two companies which I understand may be getting referred In response to the start of his question, the… sorry, I to in here by Hon. Members has now signed up and wishes have lost my place – to take advantage, after having seen the presentations – Mr Quirk: The portal. Mr Quirk: It has to! Mr Cretney: Yes, I thank the Hon. Member. I did Mr Cannan: They had to! answer in the original Question that, after the two years, the

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Department of Trade and Industry ceases to become involved served by undertaking a tender process which could be and that is a matter – other than an ongoing payment – for an accused of wasting the time and money of those responding. individual contract between the retailer and vendor. (Interjection) This project was approved by my Department, the Treasury and the Council of Ministers over a period of some months, where all the pros and cons were considered in some VENDA detail. Furthermore, my Department has secured the support Selection without approved tender process of the Chamber of Commerce IT and Retail Committees, as well as the Chamber’s Governing Council for this project, 22. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the including the decision to use VENDA. Minister for Trade and Industry: VENDA has invested millions of pounds to develop proven internet shopping systems used by leading organisations such Why the partner in the project to allow Isle of Man as the BBC and has strategic partnerships with experts such as retailers to set up their own on-line retailing site, VENDA, PayPal. Seeking a local IT company to develop a competing was selected without the approved tender process being system would be like asking a local IT company to develop used, not giving any local IT suppliers the ability to bid Manx Windows, rather than using Microsoft Windows: it for the project? would be attempting to reinvent the wheel to little positive effect. The President: We go on to Question 22. Mr Karran, I believe the project will have little adverse impact on Hon. Member. local IT businesses. In fact, it represents real opportunities for some of them, while it could make a substantial difference Mr Karran: I ask the Question standing in my name. to the independent retail sector. Indeed, the VENDA system can be customised and enhanced if the retailer so desires The President: Mr Cretney. and such work is to be undertaken by local IT companies, offering them valuable revenue opportunities. Appealing The Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Cretney): websites including good images of products will also be Thank you, Mr President. key, offering revenue opportunities for local marketing and The decision to progress this project work with VENDA photography businesses. was taken following months of research and analysis, plus I am delighted to report that immediately following an approval process that included my Department, the the launch event on 6th May, my Department has received Treasury and the Council of Ministers, such that it complied responses from 33 retailers seeking to participate, as well as with financial regulations. The research analysis focused, 22 local service providers, including several IT companies. first, on the needs of local retailers and consumers, then the capabilities of local and international software providers to The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. meet those needs. It must be remembered that our principal aim is to aid local independent retailers, who employ over Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh inform 1,200 people and are facing difficult conditions, as I stated this Court, why were the local providers not up to standard? earlier. Who made that decision? Will he provide the information The research and analysis concluded that the needs of on why that decision was made to this Hon. Court? Does he the Island and its local retailers and consumers could not not also agree that the fact is that after two years, basically, be readily met by a local IT company. It also concluded they will have their feet under the table and no local provider that VENDA offered the best fit with the needs out of the will have any opportunity to be able to put up any other international providers considered. The Department sought provider? independent local expert advice on this matter. Chris Would he also not agree that the fact is that, fair enough, Gledhill, Managing Director of PDMS, the Island’s largest it is an Isle of Man-based company, but all the profits will provider of international internet solutions, kindly undertook go to its parent company in the United Kingdom? Does he the evaluation of the VENDA product in relation to local recognise that we all recognise in this Court, especially after suppliers, and he concluded: writing about this very subject, about two years ago, for one of the local art shops, that we agree with the principle but ‘In summary, I understand the rationale for this initiative and on balance the way he has gone about it has left a bitter taste in many accept that the needs of the retail sector almost certainly outweigh any people’s mouths, because of the lack of transparency and a perceived distortion on the local IT market that this may cause. With level playing field? specific reference to the points raised by the Treasury, I do not believe that there is a comparable product available locally and this initiative may even have a beneficial effect on the software and design sector by The President: Mr Cretney. stimulating more activity in the market for online activities by small businesses in general.’ The Minister: I may comment about transparency later. We know one of the companies which has actually been on Based upon its analysis and consultation comments, to me about this. the Department concluded that the solution provided by In relation to this matter, it was properly considered VENDA is proven, award-winning, widely used, involves by officers of my Department and there was independent no upfront development cost to Government or participating external support in that operation. I understand the points businesses, and thus reduces the risk to both the taxpayer the Hon. Member makes, but I have tried to explain in my and the participating business, while offering good value presentation on the Answer that it was clear, at this stage, it for money. As a result, little useful purpose would be would not… it would have taken a considerable amount of

VENDA – Contract and financial benefit for Island VENDA – Selection without approved tender process Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 957 T126 money and a considerable amount of time, if it were possible We are in unprecedented times in terms of retail and so that for a local provider to get geared up. We are in difficult times is why action to support the sector… when you look at what for independent retailers. Action is required now. is happening… and what is happening is there is a real move towards more shopping online. We have a proven solution The President: Mr Cregeen. here and that is why we moved towards that. If I can start to redress some of the imbalance about this Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. one-sided argument that we are having in here. One of the It was interesting hearing the Minister say ‘the criteria’ persons who criticised our actions in advance has gone on – ‘meet the criteria’. to put a blog, which I was given a copy of yesterday. This The criteria were: is your name VENDA; do you have person was very critical of what the Department were doing. an international company; and what companies are listed On Thursday, 14th May, he has put: with you?’ Those could be the criteria and ‘no local service ‘How wrong was I about VENDA?! Having seen the guts of the system providers meet them’! – wow wee, she’s a beauty! Does the lot, I’d definitely use it for my Will he agree that he should investigate whether the local online store. Maybe the Manx retailers could group together and by the providers could provide this service, as they do to many power of VENDA challenge Amazon for that number 1 e-tailer spot, I businesses now? (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) Will he also reckon it could happen.’ provide this Hon. Court with a list of the companies who have already signed up? Will he agree to meet with Members Another one: so that we can discuss the concerns, (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) that you are actually undermining local e-commerce ‘The presentation by the DTI and VENDA was most impressive.’ and that there are companies on the Isle of Man who did sign up to assist in this scheme, because you have taken their main This is from Stephen Bradley, Chairman of the Isle of Man business away from them? (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) Chamber of Commerce Retail Committee. This is a great concern. It really does need possible referral to the Public Accounts Committee, because I do not Mr Watterson: Could it be circulated to Members, Mr feel this has satisfied the need for the retailers in the Isle of President? Man. The Minister: Of course. If the Hon. Member is so (Interjections) The President: Mr Cretney. sensitive, I am happy to circulate it to the Hon. Member. If he does not believe what I am saying, I am happy to circulate it. (Interjections) The Minister: Well, time will tell whether it satisfies the need of the retailers of the Isle of Man, but what was needed, The President: Hon. Members. and what is needed, is action to support them. That is why I followed the course of action I have, which followed a great Mr Watterson: Just putting it in context, Mr Cretney! deal of consultation and work, which was carried out. (Laughter) I am a little bit concerned that the Hon. Member seems to be just wanting to cast aspersions on every point he makes. The Minister: ‘The presentation by the DTI and VENDA He started off with my Chief Executive and trying to cast was most impressive.’ aspersions about him and he has carried on throughout. This has been done in a proper way. Everything that has been done Mr Cannan: Mr President, point of order, sir. has been done in a proper way and I am quite happy, if he wishes to refer it to the Public Accounts Committee; I am The Minister: ‘We are sure this initiative will be of quite happy for that to happen. substantial…’

The President: Mr Watterson. Mr Cannan: Point of order, sir.

Mr Watterson: Thank you. The President: Mr Cretney, Mr Cannan wishes to raise Perhaps looking forward slightly, how will the Minister a point – be defining success of this project? What are his specific and measurable key performance indicators for success, because Mr Cannan: Point of order, sir. the only one he has mentioned so far is making sure that Practice and custom says in Standing Orders that if a employment in the sector does not actually reduce by more Member is reading out something, a document, that document than 10 in the next 10 years? So perhaps he could give us must be circulated. what the specific and measurable indicators for success are for this project. The President: Mr Cannan, I am aware of the Standing Order, I am aware of the point you are making. The President: Mr Cretney. Nevertheless, I think in this particular instance in getting the response back, I am going to allow Mr Cretney – I will The Minister: I wish to see a vibrant, local, independent not allow him to continue forever – he is effectively reading retail sector. The figures are quite clear – what is happening what was on a blog, as I understand it. in retail at the moment. We are in very difficult times in Mr Cretney. terms of retail, not only in terms of the independent sector, but we have seen what has happened in terms of multiples. The Minister: It is the point I am trying to make, Mr

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President. I do not believe the vast majority of Members The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member – in here are experts, but a number of the people who have responded have made positive comments and what I am The Minister: Sorry, in relation also to the consultation trying to say is, there is a balance in here, which I hope Hon. element, this has been going on for a considerable time. Members will consider. Indeed, it was going on prior to the document to which the The point that I was starting to make was the Chair of the Hon. Member refers. But it is not a formal consultation Chamber of Commerce retail committee, Stephen Bradley: document, anyway.

‘The presentation by the DTI and VENDA was most impressive. We The President: Mr Karran. are sure this initiative will be of substantial benefit to a large number of retailers on the Island, as evidenced by the strong turnout at the Villa Marina presentation. The pricing of the website is affordable to retailers Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not and appears relatively easy to set up and administer.’ agree that if he is so sure that his decisions are so right, then make available… who said there were no local providers to I note the point that you made, Mr President, I will make provide it? one more if I can and this is from Manx Telecom, Chris Hall: The Minister: I’ve told you.

‘…from my perspective this is a very positive initiative and although Mr Karran: Who made that decision and will he provide I always support buying on Island, where the right service is available the information, as far as that decision made, out to Hon. at the right quality/price, clearly in this case there was no other option Members, so that we can see why the local people were not than to work with a proven industry-leading partner. This is a highly specialised area and I am not aware of any relevant local expertise, so allowed, on a tendering basis, on a level playing field, in order the route you have chosen is the best way of optimising the success to access the opportunity of providing this service? of the project.’ Would the Minister also consider the fact that reading blogs… We all read blogs. I do criticise maybe other Ministers I could go on, Mr President. I have others, but I hear more than himself, but it depends on what blogs you read, as what you say. far as these issues are concerned, and we should have some balance in, as far as the issue is concerned, especially when The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. many of these people are in a position where Government money does go their way and it does sometimes cloud their Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. thought process, as far as how good or how bad – Could I ask the Minister, then… There is a code of conduct for Government Departments. There are six criteria The President: Mr Karran, again going on, sir, there and I just wonder whether he could name one of them. questions need to be asked as supplementaries direct, Hon. It does say at the bottom of this document, and I do not need Members. to read it out: Mr Callister.

‘These criteria must be followed in consultation documents.’ Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane –

I am just wondering why his Department never followed The President: He will come back, Mr Karran. the consultation document, or wanted to avoid it. Can I say to the Minister that I was at the particular briefing. I went Mr Callister: Will the Minister accept that the initial to the day-time one and the night-time one, and I asked the demand for this did, of course, come from the retailers, questions of the particular man: is it a Manx company, will who would not, of their own, be able to provide this service he be paying tax, will he be paying National Insurance? He because it would be impossible to afford it, and the sensible refused to comment, and here we have a document that was approach then was to get the best possible service for the done yesterday by the papers: all those questions have now retailers? been answered. That must have been a quick company. It But will he also accept that the real beneficiaries of this must be off the shelf. are being forgotten, in that they are the consumers of the Isle of Man, who will make use of these services, who are the The President: That was a comment rather than a constituents of the Members? question. Mr Cretney. The President: Mr Cretney.

The Minister: I just think it is unfortunate that, yet again, The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for making that an aspersion has been spread here by an Hon. Member. point clear. I agree entirely, obviously I do. The retail sector, in my opinion, in the past has been Mr Quirk: What? seen by some as a secondary sector. It has not been seen as important as it should have been. I believe that we have The Minister: You are spreading an – (Interjection by tried to redress that balance in relation to, first all, work Mr Quirk) I said, in the Answer to my Question earlier… where a retail consultant has gone round and assisted local In the Answer to the Question earlier, Mr President, I did independent retailers to be competitive and to make sure they say that the original visit from VENDA to the Island was are going to be viable into the future. This is an extension to look to establishing an Isle of Man presence. That they of that, in terms of the local independent retail sector, who have done now. have a challenging time, and what we have tried to do here

VENDA – Selection without approved tender process Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 959 T126 in a fair and honest way… If I answer the point from the in relation to the Question, to put some balance into the Hon. Member, the review was carried out and undertaken argument – and I am intending to get a balance in the Court by officers of my Department, as I have said previously, – that I would permit Mr Cretney to read the blog. It was as supported by external advice, which I have referred to in simple as that. my Answer. Final supplementary, Mr Cregeen.

Mr Karran: Well, make it public! Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister has failed to answer my question: will he The Minister: I just have made it public. I have just told give the same support to local retailers who are going to use you, twice. a local software company to use an Internet site? Will he give those retailers the same support as they are for VENDA? Mr Karran: The information. The President: Mr Cretney. The President: Mr Cregeen. The Minister: First of all, I would have thought that Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. any local retailers who wish to get involved in having an In a previous Answer, the Minister confirmed that his Internet site would go for the best option, and this is the Chief Executive went to China with VENDA – best option. However – (Interjections) there were two firms only that The Minister: He didn’t go with VENDA. He was going, have contacted – (Interjection by Mr Quirk and laughter) anyway. The President: Mr Cretney. Mr Quirk: Well, he met them, anyway, didn’t he? The Minister: There are two firms only that have Mr Cregeen: Can he confirm that his Chief Executive contacted the Department, one of which is now signed up, contacted VENDA and asked them to see if they wanted to one of which is the one I referred to in terms of transparency go to China, on this Chamber of Commerce… and did he a little bit before. I understand that that firm had a meeting also contact the local service providers to see if they wanted with my Chief Executive this week and the points that were to avail themselves of this opportunity? raised by them are being considered. And if any local retailers would like to take up an Isle of Man service provider for Internet shopping, will his Department provide the same funding for those retailers as TRANSPORT they are for the ones using the VENDA package? TT practice and race weeks The President: Mr Cretney. Smooth traffic flow at rush hours

The Minister: In relation to the visit to China, my Chief 23. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Executive was attending the meeting in China. To the best Minister for Transport: of my knowledge, he informed VENDA during conversation that this was going on and it may be something that was of What lessons have been learnt from last year’s traffic benefit to them, too. There was no collusion, which I believe management fiasco, and what assurances he can give is the implication of what the Hon. Member is trying to say that traffic will flow smoothly at rush hours during TT here. There was no collusion. It was just information that this practice and race weeks? event was on and it may be useful to them if they wished to attend it. They did not attend together; they attended The President: We will go on to Question 23. Mr separately, but they were at the same event. Watterson.

The President: Chief Minister, did you wish to… Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): I have a point of order I wish to raise, Mr President, if now is appropriate. The President: Minister for Transport. It was raised by the Hon. Member for Michael about circulating papers as under Standing Orders. Standing Order The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank 3.23(7) refers to this matter. Could I ask, sir, for a ruling you, Mr President. from yourself at some stage of the sitting, as to whether that In answering this Question I assume the hon. questioner Standing Order applies to Questions and giving answers refers to the congestion caused during the , to Questions, as I believe that would make the work of the when weather conditions caused delays to a day of racing and Court impossible. the Clerk of the Course allowed the closed roads period to continue into the evening peak traffic period, which caused The President: I had considered that position, Chief traffic congestion in Douglas. Minister. My position would be quite plain that, in fact, if a I can advise that the legal Road Racing Order for the Member deliberately and out of balance, continued to read TT permits the organiser to hold practices, races, parades, papers, I would draw it to the Court’s attention. I thought postponed practices and postponed races on any day during there was a necessity in the way the discussion had gone the TT Festival period. If weather or other circumstances

VENDA – Selection without approved tender process TT practice and race weeks – Smooth traffic flow at rush hours 960 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Oral Answers require races, practices or parades to be delayed or postponed, congestion in the Douglas area does not take into account crossing points will be opened under the control of police the Marine Drive. Officers have looked at that and have put officers between races. In the event of significant delays to their efforts into different areas. races or practices, crossing points will be open during the I can say to the Hon. Member that officers from the evening period. The Road Racing Order for the Manx Grand Isle of Man Constabulary will be deployed to areas that are Prix will be written later this year, following a review of last likely to be congested in the event of an event which does year’s Order. generate such congestion as it did last year during the Manx The Department will consider additional measures Grand Prix. to ensure the higher volumes of commuter traffic in the evening peak period during the festival are not subject to the The President: Mr Watterson. substantial delays experienced last year. In addition, representatives from my Department have Mr Watterson: Would the Minister be willing to circulate held meetings with colleagues in the Department of Home a traffic management plan so that Members could input into Affairs on 7th April and on 9th May to review and finalise it? the TT traffic management plans for the course and Douglas. This has resulted in changes to the TT traffic management Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. plan for Douglas, which will be implemented when the TT course is closed for road racing and practices. The President: Minister. However, I must reiterate that when unscheduled or emergency road closures are implemented by the Department The Minister: Mr President, the traffic management of Transport – and the emergency services cannot always plans are still in the point of being worked up. I believe I have give adequate advance warning of these closures to enable already quoted that two meetings are taking place. Further members of the public to change their arrangements, this will meetings will have to take place before to make sure that the result in additional traffic using the remaining strategic routes i’s are dotted and the t’s crossed, but I will circulate those and, inevitably, congestion will occur on these alternative when they are available. routes.

The President: Mr Watterson. AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FORESTRY Mr Watterson: Would the Minister please expand on what he said were ‘other measures that were being Rio Convention on Biodiversity considered’? What assurances would he be able to give that Statement we – the people of the Isle of Man – will not have to be subject to hour-long delays to get out of Douglas? 24. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: The President: Minister. If he will make a statement on the current situation The Minister: Quite clearly, the other measures I referred with regard to his Department, the Government and the to are traffic-management plans that are being organised Isle of Man fully signing up to the Rio Convention on and put in place with our colleagues in Home Affairs to do Biodiversity and what, if any, progress has been made with making sure that, when congestion does take place, a to date? rapid-response vehicle – for example, a motorcycle – will be deployed to various places within the road network to The President: Question 24. Hon. Member, Mr make sure that traffic monitoring is conducted so that the Henderson. maximum amount of vehicles can use any one route at any time. This is an ongoing exercise with the Department of Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Home Affairs to make sure that we minimise the risks to the Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I public. We cannot guarantee congestion will not happen, but beg to ask the Question in my name. we are doing everything in our power, with our colleagues, to make sure it does not. The President: Mr Gawne, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. The President: Mr Houghton. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Can the Minister confirm whether the Marine Drive will Last July, DAFF arranged a presentation about the be put into use as an escape route going south? Also, can he Convention on Biological Diversity for politicians, which I confirm that traffic wardens and police officers will man all know many Hon. Members were able to attend. In November, the larger junctions that are controlled by traffic lights and I gave an undertaking that I would take this proposal forward there will be point duty done on those, in order to get all that in the coming year in response to the growing public support. traffic out of town as fast as it possibly can, sir? I am acutely aware that the Isle of Man is one of very few places which are not party to this Convention. The President: Minister. Many of the articles of the Convention require actions which we have already embarked on; however, a figure of The Minister: In relation, Mr President, to the first part an additional £300,000 a year would, ideally, be required of the Hon. Member’s question, the method for reducing to enable the development of a fully functioning biological

TT practice and race weeks – Smooth traffic flow at rush hours Rio Convention on Biodiversity – Statement Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 961 T126 records centre, expansion of the Agri-Environment Scheme, natural heritage and that we do really need to apply ourselves the employment of a farm conservation adviser and a as a matter of urgency to this issue. He agreed all that. biodiversity project officer to draw up biodiversity action plans. In the current financial climate, it is extremely unlikely The President: I think he agreed all that. that this level of funding will be available; however, I believe Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. that need not stop us becoming a party to the Convention. Taking forward biodiversity action plans for species and The Minister: Yes, indeed, I am happy to agree to both habitats is going to require a substantial commitment of time of those. from paid officers, voluntary organisations and the public. Being party to the CBD will also require agreement of all Departments, as the responsibility and capability to further biodiversity is spread widely across Government. DAFF is HM ATTORNEY GENERAL hoping to have an event for Government officers in the near future to raise awareness, including the economic benefits of Voluntary tips in restaurants becoming a signatory. Meanwhile, I would like to thank my Legal obligations of managers towards staff hon. colleague, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, for his contributions of wildlife records from the Curragh 25. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask HM and encourage the Manx people to enjoy the biodiversity of Attorney General: our glens and hills at this exceptional time of the year. What legal obligations there are, if any, for voluntary The President: Mr Henderson. tips and gratuities, added to credit or debit card payments by customers at restaurants, to be passed on Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. to staff and not retained by the owner or manager of the Will the Shirveishagh acknowledge that we are currently establishment? basically in breach of international standards and would he agree further that we need to redouble our efforts The President: Question 25. Mr Karran. in progressing to be full signatories to the Biodiversity Convention? Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing Further to that, Eaghtyrane, is he aware of the House in my name. of Commons Environmental Audit Committee on Halting The President: Mr Attorney, please. Biodiversity Loss, whereby the Report that was published last Christmas specifically identifies habitat loss within the The Attorney General: Mr President, the short Answer Crown dependencies and specifically identifies the biodiverse to the Hon. Member is that, in the absence of a particular and endangered species that we have? provision in a contract of employment, I am not aware of any legal obligations for such tips and gratuities to be passed on The President: Minister for Agriculture, Mr Gawne. to staff employed at the establishment in question.

The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The President: Mr Karran. I am aware of the House of Commons report on biodiversity, Yes, indeed, I think for my answers I would Mr Karran: Mr President, does the Attorney General say that we are endeavouring to redouble our efforts to think that it is right? It is rather a deception if people are try and get signed up to the Convention on Biological actually paying a gratuity and it is not going to the very staff Diversity. I am not sure that I can acknowledge that we are that the gratuity is supposed to go to? in breach of international standards when we have not signed Will he consider whether there is a vehicle in legislation up specifically, but I think what the hon. questioner was where we can actually amend the law so that if proprietors suggesting more was that the Isle of Man, perhaps, in failing are saying that it is for tips, when it is not for tips… This is to sign the Convention on Biological Diversity is falling really fraud and there should be some provision made so that behind the rest of the world and certainly that is the case. the Office of Fair Trading can take it up, make representation and have the power to do something about bad employers The President: Question 25. doing such a process.

Mr Henderson: I wish to ask a further supplementary The President: Mr Attorney. to my Question, please. The Attorney General: Mr President, I think it must be The President: Sorry, Mr Henderson. a matter for the employer and the employee to sort out. I am not sure that I can really add anything further to that. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Would the… with the Shirveishagh acknowledging the The President: In that case, Hon. Members, I think it is importance of signing up to the biodiversity agreement, an appropriate time, having completed all the Oral Questions would he agree that he will bring the matter to the Council – the remaining Questions were for Written Answer, Hon. of Ministers, if necessary, and would he recognise that two Members – the Court will take its lunchtime break and resume or three years ago I brought a motion to this place whereby deliberations at 2.30 p.m. it was unanimously supported in recognition of the Island’s Thank you, Hon. Members.

Rio Convention on Biodiversity – Statement Voluntary tips in restaurants – Legal obligations of managers towards staff 962 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Written Answers

(4) In respecting the privacy of the individuals concerned, Questions for Written Answer I can advise that there are five pay bands in operation within the FSC. These comprise the following with the numbers of staff in each band shown in brackets. There was no change CHIEF MINISTER in the pay bands this year from last year. The figures for the year before that are shown below in brackets. Financial Supervision Commission Heads of Division (4) (4) Monitoring use of public money £70,000 – £91,000 (£70,000 – £86,000) Pay Band D – Senior Managers (9) (8) 26. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) £39,400 – £66,720 (£36,000 – £62,000) to ask the Chief Minister: Pay Band C – Managers (23) (18) £35,800 – £49,500 (£26,000 – £45,000) Whether the Financial Supervision Commission is funded Pay Band B – Assistant Managers, Supervision Officers by public money applied each year for its organisational and Senior Administrative Officers (19) (13) running and salaries, and, if so £21,400 – £37,750 (£18,000 – £30,000) (a) who approves this; and Pay Band A – Admin Officers, Secretaries (17) (17) (b) what monitoring takes place to ensure that this £13,600 – £29,700 (15,000 – £24,000) organisation gives value for money? (5) The FSC including the salaries is funded by fees which it receives from licenceholders and companies. Answer: The Financial Supervision Commission is (6) See the answer to question (5) above. funded by fees which it receives from licenceholders and companies. It is required to comply with the Government’s Financial Regulations, and as a Statutory Board the FSC’s budget is approved in line with the same processes as apply FSC Chief Executive to Government Departments and other Statutory Boards and Source of funding for salary and bonuses it is subject to internal audit by Government. As a Statutory Board, the FSC is required to observe the 28. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) requirements set by the Treasury and the FSC’s expenditure to ask the Chief Minister: is monitored and controlled within budget in line with the normal Government practice. Whether the £250,000 salary and additional bonuses of the Chief Executive of the Financial Supervision Commission is paid for entirely from public money, or, if not, what proportion is paid from public funds and what Financial Supervision Commission the other source of the payments is? Source of funding; staff salaries Answer: The Chief Executive’s salary is paid from the 27. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) revenue which the Commission receives in the form of to ask the Chief Minister: licenceholder and companies fees. I should add that, as from 2008-09, the Chief Executive does not receive any additional (1) From where the Financial Supervision Commission bonuses on his current salary. draws its early organisational budgets resource, including staff salaries; (2) whether it is partially self-funded or otherwise; (3) in each of the last three years how many staff were Public service pension review working there; Assurance to those currently in receipt (4) by alphabetical denotation to respect privacy, what each post’s salary was for each of those years; 29. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the (5) whether salaries are fully publicly funded; and, Chief Minister: (6) if not, what percentage of each post has public funding applied to it? If the Council of Ministers will give a categorical assurance that persons currently in receipt of a public Answer: (1) The Financial Supervision Commission is service pension will not at any time in the foreseeable funded by fees which it receives from licenceholders and future have that pension reviewed? companies. In its published accounts for the year ended 31st March 2008, the FSC reported that it received licenceholder Answer: There is no intention at this time of reviewing and company fees on behalf of Government of £12.6 million pensions already in payment. and incurred expenditure of £3.9 million. The FSC pays all its net revenue to Government. (2) The FSC is funded as set out above. (3) The number of staff employed at the FSC are as Anglo-Manx Parliamentary Group, Westminster follows: Briefing papers re Isle of Man 2009-10 68.5 fte 2008-09 68.5 fte 30. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the 2007-08 65.5 fte Chief Minister:

FSC – Monitoring use of public money : FSC – Source of funding; staff salaries FSC Chief Executive – Source of funding for salary and bonuses Public service pension review – Assurance to those currently in receipt Anglo-Manx Parliamentary Group, Westminster – Briefing papers re Isle of Man Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 963 T126

Since 1st January 2009, what briefing papers or 22nd April information leaflets have been circulated to members of Press release ‘Progress report from Michael Foot the Anglo-Manx Parliamentary Group in Westminster, welcomed by IOM’. as well as MPs and Peers who regularly speak on issues 24th April concerning the Isle of Man? Press release ‘Final date set for applications to KSF IOM Early Payment Scheme’. Answer: Since 1st January 2009, the following briefing 30th April papers/articles of interest have been circulated to members Details and link to HM Treasury press release welcoming of the British-Manx All Party Parliamentary Group and other progress by IOM to Tax Information Exchange’. MPs and Peers who have shown an interest in the IOM: In addition, during last week over 1,000 specifically compiled leaflets, ‘The Isle of Man: a briefing’ were 20th January distributed to MPs and Peers by e-mail; the remainder to Article ‘Fraudsters target KSF depositors in heartless those not on e-mail being distributed by post. scam’. Beyond the distribution of briefing papers and other Article ‘IOM tax agreements with Ireland activated’. information, the Isle of Man Government’s outreach activities Article ‘Tynwald update’. with Westminster and Whitehall also include a continuing Link to www.gov.im/cso/faq series of personal meetings to discuss key issues and provide 29th January information and briefings. The Chief Minister and Treasury Press release ‘£10,000 early payment proposed for KSF Minister, with supporting officers as appropriate, have held IOM depositors’. the following meetings since 1st January 2009. 20th February Press release ‘Court gives go ahead for development of Government KSF IOM Scheme of Arrangement’. Stephen Timms MP – Financial Secretary to the 2nd March Treasury (29/01/09) Copy of correspondence from Chief Minister to Lord Items of discussion Goodlad re Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill sent International regulation to Lords West, Hoyle, Shutt, Glentoran, Smith, Kilclooney, Framework of International Personality Quirk and Baroness Miller. Foot review of Offshore Centres 5th March Geoffrey Spence MP – Member of the Council of Article in respect of APPG Chair, Andrew Rosindell MP’s Economic Advisors (13/01/09) oral questions to the Prime Minister 04.03.09 re ‘Teaching of Items of discussion British History in Schools’ to Andrew Rosindell MP. Contribution of the Isle of Man to the City 9th March The Isle of Man’s reputation for compliance and Link to radio article ‘Chief Minister’s response to Gordon Brown’s keynote speech, Washington’ to Jamie cooperation White, Parliamentary Researcher to APPG Chair, Andrew The relationship between the Isle of Man Government Rosindell MP. and HMT 17th March Link to radio article ‘KSF Scheme is best way Opposition forward’. Michael Fallon MP – Conservative MP and Chair of 27th March House of Commons Treasury Subcommittee (23/04/09) Press release ‘IOM signs tax co-operation agreement Items of discussion with France’. House of Commons Treasury Committee’s Enquiry into 30th March the Banking Crisis inquiry Copy of correspondence from Chief Minister to Lord The Foot review West re Clause 40 of Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Political scrutiny of offshore centres Bill to Lords Hoyle, Shutt, Glentoran, Smith, Kilclooney, The Conservative Party’s position on these issues Quirk and Baroness Miller. Vince Cable MP – Liberal Democrat Deputy Leader and 1st April Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer (13/01/09) Email to APPG members to raise awareness of Early Day Items of discussion Motion re Mark Cavendish, plus extract of Chief Minister’s Contribution of the Isle of Man to the City speech (20.10.08) and extract of article from The Guardian The Foot review newspaper. Political scrutiny of offshore centres 2nd April Global regulatory reform Press release ‘No change in identity requirements for Dr John Pugh MP – Liberal Democrat Shadow Treasury UK travel’. Minister (29/01/09) 3rd April Items of discussion Press release ‘IOM recognised on OECD tax white list’ Contribution of the Isle of Man to the City plus details of list. The financial sector and the Isle of Man’s economy 14th April The Foot review Press release ‘Depositors to vote on KSF IOM Scheme Political scrutiny on offshore centres of Arrangement’. The Liberal Democrat’s view on the issues facing the 21st April Isle of Man Update on KSF to Jamie White, Parliamentary Researcher Rt Hon Alan Beith MP – Chair of the House of to APPG Chair, Andrew Rosindell MP. Commons Justice Committee (13/01/09)

Anglo-Manx Parliamentary Group, Westminster – Briefing papers re Isle of Man 964 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Written Answers

Items of discussion The Foot review of Offshore Financial Centres The work of the Justice Committee on Crown Andrew Graham – Chief Operating Officer and Richard Dependencies Lomas – Public Affairs Manager at the British Private Equity Political scrutiny of offshore centres & Venture Capital Association (12/01/09) Cooperation between Isle of Man Government and Items of discussion Ministry of Justice Contribution of Isle of Man to the venture capital and Andrew Turner MP – Conservative MP and member of private equity industry the House of Commons Justice Committee (13/01/09) The Foot review Items of discussion The work of the Justice Committee on Crown Dependencies Political scrutiny of offshore centres Code of practice on access to Government information Co-operation between Isle of Man Government and Disclosure of information in Commissioner’s ruling Ministry of Justice Equally critical to perceptions of the Isle of Man in the UK 31. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the are our relationships with other leading decision-makers. To Chief Minister: put forward the Isle of Man’s position, I and/or the Treasury Minister have also met with the following individuals since Whether there is an obligation under the code of practice the beginning of the year. on access to Government information that places an obligation on the respondent to disclose the information City/regulatory/trade bodies/trade unions set out in the Commissioner’s ruling? Jeremy Fern – Head of City Affairs at the Corporation of London (23/04/09) Answer: Paragraphs 11 and 12 of Part I of the Code of Items of discussion Practice on Access to Government Information states: The contribution of the Isle of Man to the City of London 11. ‘Complaints that information which should have been provided The Turner review of financial services regulation under the Code has not been provided, or that unreasonable charges The Foot review of British Offshore financial centres have been demanded, should be made first to the Department or Countering the political scrutiny of offshore financial body concerned. If the applicant remains dissatisfied, complaints may be made through a Member of Tynwald to the Commissioner. centres Complaints will be investigated by the Commissioner who will advise Sir Stephen Wright – CEO International Financial the complainant of his decision. Services London , Duncan McKenzie, Director of Economics, 12. The Commissioner will present an annual report to Tynwald on Wayne Evans, Head of International, Lamb, Deputy his work under the Code, listing the complaints dealt with and the Chief Executive (12/01/09) outcome’. Items of discussion The importance of the Isle of Man to the City of It can be seen from the above that there is no obligation London on the respondent to disclose the information set out in the The Foot Review Commissioner’s ruling. Political scrutiny of offshore centres Peter Vipond – Director of Regulatory Affairs ABI (23/04/09) Items of discussion Noble’s Hospital, Braddan The contribution of the Isle of Man to the UK insurance Ownership industry The Foot review of Offshore Financial Centres 32. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the Chief Political scrutiny of Offshore Financial Centres Minister: Andy Scott – CBI Director of International and UK Operations, Matthew Fell, Director of Company Who owns Noble’s Hospital, Braddan? Affairs(12/01/09) Items of discussion Answer: Noble’s Hospital, Braddan, Isle of Man, is Isle of Man and China & India markets owned by the Department of Health and Health and Social Isle of Man and North West England regional economy Security. Obama agenda Colin Stanbridge – CEO London Chamber of Commerce and Industry Items of discussion TREASURY The importance of the Isle of Man to the City of London Government credit cards The Foot Review Number in public sector Political scrutiny of offshore centres Brendan Barber – General Secretary TUC (30/01/09) 33. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Items of discussion Minister for the Treasury: Contribution of the Isle of Man to the UK economy The Isle of Man’s recent efforts on tax transparency and How many public sector employees have Government information exchange credit cards?

Anglo-Manx Parliamentary Group, Westminster – Briefing papers re Isle of Man Code of practice on access to Government information – Disclosure of information in Commissioner’s ruling Noble’s Hospital, Braddan – Ownership Government credit cards – Number in public sector Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 965 T126

Answer: There are a total of 16 Government credit cards and Legal Costs Section. However, the information as in issue across central Government. In addition to these cards, requested is not immediately available and is currently being the three non-revenue funded Statutory Boards have issued a consolidated. It is intended that this will be circulated to total of 18 credit cards, making an overall total of 34 credit Members in June 2009. cards. These figures relate to credit cards only and do not (b) (i) 100 per cent – Green Form assistance is not include purchase cards. available to any other entities. (ii) Nil. (c) This data is currently captured by the administration and finance systems used in Legal Aid and Legal Costs Legal Aid Budget section. However, the information as requested is not Maintaining expenditure within limit immediately available and is currently being consolidated. It is intended that this will be circulated to Members in June 34. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to 2009. ask the Minister for the Treasury: (d) 2006-07 £67,861.49 2007-08 £54,695.10 The estimates for the Legal Aid Budget on page 40 of the 2008-09 £80,525.27 Pink Book for 2009-10 show that the budget is estimated at £1.963 million; what steps are being taken to ensure This Answer was completed on 18th June 2009 by the expenditure is maintained within the limit? issue of Table 35A, which provides the information requested in part (c) of the Question: Answer: It is impossible to predict or estimate the number of cases for which legal aid will be required in any period of time. As a consequence of this, the current budget figures are Table 35A based on expenditure during previous years adjusted to reflect changes made to the statutory provision of legal aid. In reality, this figure is by way of an estimate rather than a budget, but will normally cover the majority of routine cases. It is recognised by both the General Registry and the Treasury that certain large cases will always be difficult to predict and estimate, and can be costly. In light of this, Treasury and the General Registry have agreed that these are financed through the legal costs reserve. This arrangement includes regular scrutiny and monitoring of expenditure in this regard, and ensures that smaller, more predictable expenditure is contained within the annual Budget. A bill of costs is submitted in relation to work which has been done under all Legal Aid Certificates and these bills are scrutinised to ensure that the work done is necessary and reasonable in terms of time spent and cost.

Civil Legal Aid Green Forms in last three years

35. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

In relation to Civil Legal Aid – (a) how many Green Forms have been issued each year in the last three years; (b) of the number of Green Forms issued, how many were (i) in respect of individuals; and (ii) on an annual basis; (c) how much each firm of advocates claimed each year in the last three years for advice given on the Green Form basis; and (d) what the total cost of claims for work done on Green Forms was for each year in the last three years?

Answer: (a) This data is currently captured by the administration and finance systems used in Legal Aid

Government credit cards – Number in public sector Legal Aid Budget – Maintaining expenditure within limit Civil Legal Aid – Green Forms in last three years 966 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Written Answers

Civil Legal Aid Certifying Officer that they would advise a private fee paying Preventing abuse of system client of modest means to progress the action for which their client is seeking Legal Aid. 36. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to Every advocate is an Officer of the Court and, as a ask the Minister for the Treasury: consequence, is required to provide accurate information to the Legal Aid Certifying Officer. How does the Legal Aid Department ensure that none of The opponent in the proceedings has the ability to the following exists in claims for Civil Legal Aid – challenge whether a Legal Aid application passes the merits (a) making claims in respect of work that has in fact not test or the means test. been carried out; In the event that it transpires that the Legal Aid Office (b) duplicating claims for work carried out; has been misled, there is specific legislation which allows (c) exaggerating time spent on work carried out; the Legal Aid Office to either discharge or revoke the Legal (d) giving inaccurate details of clients’ eligibility for Civil Aid Certificate, take steps to prosecute the applicant and to Legal Aid both for the Means and Merits Tests; and seek recovery of any expenditure which has been incurred (e) ensuring there are no Civil Legal Aid Certificates under the Legal Aid Certificate. issued without providing evidence of prior negotiation? (e) To ensure that attempts have been made to negotiate a settlement before the issue of a Legal Aid Certificate Answer: (a) For every claim for work done and every (where appropriate), copies of the relevant correspondence Legal Aid Certificate, the advocate is required to submit a bill is requested by the Legal Aid Certifying Officer, together of costs. Each bill of costs contains an itemised breakdown with background details as to the basis/outcome of the of every piece of work undertaken and claimed, together negotiations. Legal Aid Certificates will normally be limited with details of the time spent in that regard. The bill of costs to ‘attempting to negotiate a settlement’ unless evidence can is submitted to the Legal Aid and Legal Costs Office with be supplied to show that reasonable attempts to settle the the advocate’s file of papers in support. Each item of work matter by way of negotiation have been exhausted. is scrutinised against the evidence on the advocate’s file of papers to ensure that the work has been undertaken, is within the limitations and scope of the Legal Aid Certificate, was necessary to progress the matter in hand and was reasonable in terms of time spent and cost. Legal Aid Further information is sought from the advocate should Internal audit to prevent abuse the Assessing Officer have any queries and these are resolved before payment. 37. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to (b) A file is opened for every Civil Legal Aid application ask the Minister for the Treasury: received by the Legal Aid Office. Each Legal Aid Certificate is assigned a unique reference number. The bill of costs and (1) How often independent internal audits are carried the advocate’s file of evidence is submitted to the Assessing out by Treasury of the Legal Aid Department to check Officer, together with Legal Aid file and the Legal Aid that the system gives value for money and that there are Certificate. proper internal controls in place to ensure that there is When the bill has been assessed and paid, a copy of no abuse of Legal Aid funding; the bill is stored on the Legal Aid file. It is then apparent (2) when the last audit was conducted and whether those and clear to the Assessor, from looking at a particular file, results have been published; and whether the bill in hand is a duplicate for work which has previously been paid. (3) if so, where? (c) See answer to (a) above. (d) Financial Means Test Answer: Internal Audit is a relatively small Division of Every applicant is required to submit comprehensive Treasury, although it has a remit which covers the entirety evidence in support of their financial situation e.g. bank of Government’s operations. Therefore, to ensure that its statements, pay slips, rent books, mortgage interest resources and efforts are optimally focused and prioritised, a certificates, etc . periodic assessment of Government’s processes and systems Each applicant is required to sign a declaration as part of is undertaken to determine the division review programme. It their application form. This includes consent for the Legal is through this risk assessment and analysis that the frequency Aid Office to contact various bodies (e.g. banks, Income of reviews for each area is determined. Tax, employers etc) with a view to ratifying the information However, the ability of Internal Audit to undertake supplied in the application form. any detailed audit work and assessment is constrained, as Legal Merits Test access to Legal Aid documentation is restricted by the law The Legal Merits Test is conducted by the Legal Aid and will consequentially impact on the scope and timing of Certifying Officer, who is legally qualified, has a legal the review. background and has experience in law. As the law stands: The Legal Aid Certifying Officer, upon receipt of a Legal Aid application, reviews the information supplied “no person shall disclose to any other person any information supplied therein and asks questions of the advocate and seeks further to him in connection with a case of a person seeking of receiving advice information, where necessary, to establish whether the claim or assistance or Legal Aid under Part I of the Act, other than for the proper purpose of facilitating the discharge of his duties under this Part stands a reasonable prospect of success in law. This is a well of the Act, or for the purpose of a criminal proceeding for an offence established legal test. thereunder or of any report of such proceedings.” (Legal Aid Act, Part Advocates will be required to satisfy the Legal Aid I, section 14 (1)’

Civil Legal Aid – Preventing abuse of system Legal Aid – Internal audit to prevent abuse Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 967 T126

A report, following an overview of processes surrounding if he will make a statement in relation to the final the Legal Aid process, was produced by the Division in paragraph’s comments particularly – September 1998. The report at that time was provided to: • Chief Registrar, General Registry ‘… I will however keep this matter under review, and if repossessions • Chief Financial Officer, Treasury so emerge as a wider issue, will undertake to come back with additional • Attorney General measures if required.’? • External Auditors • Standing Committee on Expenditure and Public Answer: I continue to keep this matter under review. Accounts. There is no evidence of any increase in repossessions Given the nature and objectives of the Internal Audit to date, and the latest unemployment figures are a positive service, the reports produced are internal management indication that the Island has so far escaped the worst of the documents and not ‘published’ for an external audience. current slowdown elsewhere.

IOM–UK Treaty Agreement EDUCATION Alleged breach Government-funded pre-school places 38. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the Response to consultation on allocation Minister for the Treasury: 41. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the (1) Whether he is aware of an allegation of a breach of Minister for Education: a Treaty Agreement between the Isle of Man and UK Governments lodged in writing to him in a letter dated When she will publish the response to her consultation 22nd April 2009; on the allocation of Government-funded pre-school (2) whether he has responded and/or acknowledged this places? letter; (3) whether the allegations have any basis; and Answer: The Department of Education has been carefully (4) if he will make a statement outlining the full considering the responses received through the consultation circumstances of this matter? process and the Department’s response is now available from the DOE Website: www.gov.im/education. Paper copies are Answer: (1) Yes. also available on request from the Department’s office in (2) No. Douglas. (3) No. Individual responses to all those who responded to the (4) No. consultation exercise have also been prepared and were issued by Friday 15th May, 2009.

Manx depositors’ funds held by UK Government Steps to recovery HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY

39. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the Swine flu and winter flu Minister for the Treasury: Comparative danger

What steps he is party to in trying to recover the Manx 42. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to depositors’ funds held by the UK Government under anti- ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: terrorism legislation? Whether swine flu is any more dangerous to humans Answer: There are no Manx depositors’ funds held than the usual influenza winter outbreaks we suffer from by the UK Government under anti-terrorism legislation. time to time? Consequently, there are no steps to be taken. Answer: The swine flu virus is a new virus and hence no-one has any pre-existing immunity to it. This means that Mortgage holders anyone can pick it up. Also being a new virus, there is no Protection from repossession effective vaccine against the swine flu virus (seasonal flu vaccine does not offer any protection against swine flu). 40. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the With regard to infectiousness and virulence, there is only Minister for the Treasury: limited data available. The virus does appear more infectious than seasonal flu. In terms of complications, based on the Further to his Answer to my Question for Written Answer data available, the conclusion is that the present virus is as number 34 at the December 2008 sitting of Tynwald – dangerous as that which caused the 1957 outbreak (which killed two million people across the world) but much less ‘What measures he intends to introduce to protect mortgage holders who dangerous than the 1918 Spanish Flu virus. In other words it are temporarily unable to meet their repayment commitments owing to is more infectious and is likely to cause more complications circumstances beyond their control?’ than seasonal flu.

Legal Aid – Internal audit to prevent abuse : IOM–UK Treaty Agreement – Alleged breach : Manx depositors’ funds held by UK Government – Steps to recovery : Mortgage holders – Protection from repossession : Government-funded pre-school places – Response to consultation on allocation : Swine flu and winter flu – Comparative danger 968 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Written Answers

We need to bear in mind that – When he claims ‘better productivity’ in relation to Health (a) Viruses are well known to change rapidly and the budgets in his paper ‘Health and Social Care in the Isle swine flu virus could change its character rapidly. of Man: Your Opportunity to Influence Future Policy’ why (b) In the first wave of a pandemic, the virus is often very he is unable to make such a claim in relation to Social mild; that in subsequent waves it becomes more virulent. Services and Social Security budgets and what he is doing In short, we need to keep an eye on developments to achieve similar claimed benefits in these areas? across the world and modify our plans to suit the emerging situation. Answer: The phrase ‘better productivity’ appears in a sentence, and hence the context of, specifically, commenting upon the rising annual expenditure on Health Care. It therefore cannot be taken to expressly preclude activities Swine flu to improve efficiencies, effectiveness and quality of other Deaths in Mexico; rapid recovery in UK services throughout the Department. For example, Social Services have undertaken a range of changes to the nature 43. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to and delivery of various services to achieve these objectives ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: – which have been the subject of presentations available to the Hon. Member. Why so many people have died in Mexico from swine Social Services are introducing measures to streamline flu, or reportedly secondary complications, whereas in activities to maximise the money and therefore time available the reported UK cases the symptoms seem to present as to frontline direct care provision: also, given the increasing cold-like and people are making a rapid recovery without numbers and proportions of the population who will require any complications? support because of age or disability, Social Services are developing new models of care which will meet people’s Answer: There are several reasons why the death rate is needs in modern and appropriate ways at lower cost per high in Mexico but much less in other countries. person. First of all, we are not certain about the accuracy of Furthermore, Social Security Division has made revisions the Mexican figures. Initially, large number of deaths were to the benefits regime to improve targeting and hence attributed to swine flu but when the World Health Organisation ‘productivity’ – with other proposals relating to Family sought laboratory confirmation only a proportion of this was Income Supplement and Income Support for Lone Parents due to swine flu. recently the subject of public consultations. In addition, there is also an under-estimation of the number of cases of swine flu in Mexico. The swine flu affected some of the most deprived regions in Mexico and in a country where there is no well organised health care DHSS consultation paper system only those with severe illness come to the attention Better productivity and cost savings in Health of the health services. Those with mild symptoms do not seek medical attention. This gives a spurious picture of high 45. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the mortality. Minister for Health and Social Security: Other reasons why the mortality outside Mexico is lower are: Further to his circulated paper ‘Health and Social Care • Early detection and rapid treatment of the condition: in the Isle of Man: Your Opportunity to Influence Future Antivirals are effective only if administered within Policy’ – on page 7 in the Introduction, but with specific 48 hours of onset of symptoms. Once the condition relation to Health spending, he claims ‘better productivity was recognised, all developed countries put in place achieved over the last few years’, if he will list examples arrangements for early detection and treatment of cases. and the attendant cost savings? Obviously, this was not the case with Mexico. • The virus undergoing mutation: viruses are well known Answer: I am sure that the Hon. Member will be aware to undergo mutation and this could also be a factor. From that whilst spending on Health over the last four years has a natural selection viewpoint, it is in the interest of the increased significantly this has been almost exclusively to virus to keep its host alive and reasonably healthy so meet the additional inflation cost of providing health care that they spread it around (not that viruses plan this in such as treatments in the UK, medicines, technological advance!) developments and the development of new services. The What this means is that the virus is capable of undergoing increase in staff in the Health Service over the last four years rapid change; we need to monitor this carefully as, potentially, has been virtually nil. the virus can become more virulent again. It is, therefore, to the great credit of the Health Service staff at all levels that they have been able to work smarter, more efficiently and more cost effectively, such that they have been able to absorb considerable additional activity DHSS consultation paper without staff increases. Claimed benefits in budgets Of particular note are the following: (1) An increase of nearly 3,000 in the number of patients 44. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the seen in the A&E at Noble’s each year, an increase of almost Minister for Health and Social Security: 13 per cent.

Swine flu and winter flu – Comparative danger Swine flu – Deaths in Mexico; rapid recovery in UK DHSS consultation paper – Claimed benefits in budgets DHSS consultation paper – Better productivity and cost savings in Health Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 969 T126

(2) An increase in Hospital Pathology Service activity ‘What the number of active cases are for each of the Social Services which, of course, underpins much of the activity within Division Children’s Services field social workers?’ the Health Service, from 220,000 in 2005-06 to nearly 280,000 requests in 2008-09, an increase of 56,500 or 25.3 if he will make a statement on the current situation in per cent. relation to this matter? (3) A 24.1 per cent increase in the number of Radiology examinations, which are now in excess of 1,6 million Answer: At the time of writing there are 49 children examinations per year. and young people placed on the Child Protection Register (4) The total attendances at out-patients have increased who are the subject of Child Protection Plans. Of these, 46 from 62,219 to 67,851 over the last four years, an increase are allocated to qualified social workers and in three cases of 5,632 or 9.05 per cent. Of greater significance, however, they are allocated to non qualified social workers who is that within that total, out-patient attendance, the number of report directly to an experienced and qualified senior social new patients being seen, has increased from just over 17,000 worker. in 2005-06 to almost 20,000 in 2008-09, and an increase of almost 17 per cent. (5) The number of patients seen as day cases at Noble’s has increased by 524 or 11 per cent. UK Children and Adoption Act 2006 (6) Both in-patient and theatre activity have increased by Introduction of powers to Manx courts about 5 per cent. We are now treating over 660 more patients as in-patients than we did four years ago and undertaking 47. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the surgery on over 400 more patients than we did four years Minister for Health and Social Security: ago. (7) Turning now to NHS Dentistry, you will recall that Further to his Answer to my Question for Written Answer there was a great deal of turmoil and uncertainty around number 31 at the December 2008 sitting of Tynwald – the provision of general dental services on the Isle of Man in 2004-05 and the figures I provide now are, therefore, for ‘What plans he has to introduce provisions similar to those in the United the last three years. Kingdom’s Children and Adoption Act 2006 to enhance the Manx courts’ We have allocated 8,810 patients to NHS dentists and the powers in relation to contact orders?’ total number of patients treated has increased from 20,188 to 27,730, an increase of 7,542 or 37 per cent. At the same if he will make a statement on the current situation in time, of course, the salaried Dental Service which was set relation to this matter? up to deal with the effects of the turmoil in 2004-05 has continued to provide care for approximately 25,000 regular Answer: The Safeguarding Children’s Board has this patients, as well as providing urgent and emergency dental matter under consideration and its Justice and Statutes treatment for approximately 9,000 patients, including 120 Working Group is currently reviewing the position. I would urgent appointments per week. expect to be able to give a full response to the Question by (8) For the period 2005 to 2009, the number of patients the beginning of September 2009. registered with a GP has increased from 82,771 to 85,826, an increase of 3,055 or nearly 4 per cent. Finally, you will appreciate that what the Health Service has done is to absorb all this increased activity, which the Death of ‘Baby P’ in England Department has been able to absorb without the need for a Preventing similar occurrence in Island supplementary vote in 2008-09. There have been no savings released as such but there has been added value. For example, 48. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the the additional 5,632 out patient appointments provided, Minister for Health and Social Security: compared with four years ago, if costed at the normal UK tariff rate of £180 per attendance, have generated an Further to his Answer to my Question for Written Answer additional value to the Health Service of just over £1 million. number 37 at the December 2008 sitting of Tynwald – Similarly, the 2,998 additional A&E attendances represent an increase in value to the Health Service of between £209,000 ‘Following the recent tragic death of “Baby P” in England if he will and £509,000, depending on the mix of cases. make a statement outlining the measures taken or intended to be introduced to guard against such a situation happening in the Isle of Man?’

if he will make a statement on the current situation in Children’s Services field social workers relation to this matter? Active cases Answer: The Safeguarding Board is undertaking a review 46. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the of action taken by its constituent members in respect of the Minister for Health and Social Security: recommendations of the Baby P report. Learning points have been identified and many have already been acted upon. Further to his Answer to my Question for Written Answer At its meeting in June the Safeguarding Children’s Board number 43 at the December 2008 sitting of Tynwald – will be receiving a presentation in relation to the Lord Laming

DHSS consultation paper – Better productivity and cost savings in Health Children’s Services field social workers – Active cases UK Children and Adoption Act 2006 – Introduction of powers to Manx courts Death of ‘Baby P’ in England – Preventing similar occurrence in Island 970 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Written Answers

Report ‘The Protection of Children in England – A progress Unemployment in last 12 months report’ and the Audit Commission Report, both of which Numbers in construction industry and brick/ followed on from the tragic death of Baby P. blocklaying

51. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: Children at risk Number without qualified social worker (1) What the current unemployment statistics are for each of the last 12 months in relation to total numbers 49. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the of people unemployed; Minister for Health and Social Security: (2) how many people are unemployed who are associated with the construction industry; and Further to his Answer to my Question for Written Answer (3) how many brick/blocklayers are unemployed? number 44 at the December 2008 sitting of Tynwald – Answer: The unemployment figures are collected by ‘How many active cases involving children at risk do not have an DHSS and reported publicly by Treasury’s Economic Affairs allocated qualified social worker?’ Division. The relevant figures for the period from May 2008 to April 2009 are shown in Table 51A below. if he will make a statement on the current situation in My Department’s assessment of the sectoral breakdown relation to this matter? of that unemployment in respect of the Business category of ‘Construction’ and the Occupation category of ‘Bricklayer’ Answer: At the time of writing there are 49 children is also set out in Table 51A below. and young people placed on the Child Protection Register In February of this year, I made public announcements who are the subject of child protection plans. Of these, 46 that it was my intention to increase the scrutiny on work are allocated to qualified social workers and in three cases permit applications within the construction, retail, hospitality they are allocated to non qualified social workers, who and wholesale distribution sectors. This was based on the report directly to an experienced and qualified senior social clear increase in unemployment within these sectors. worker. In March, the additional scrutiny was extended to cover basic administrative positions in all sectors, again in the light of the rise in unemployment. I will continue to closely monitor the employment situation in all sectors to ensure TRADE AND INDUSTRY that the work permit system works in the best interest of the people of the Island. Work permits in last 12 months Numbers for construction industry and brick/ blocklaying Table 51A

50. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: Month Total Construction Bricklayers (1) How many work permits have been granted in the Unemployed Unemployed Unemployed last 12 months; May 2008 550 108 5 (2) how many of those were for the construction industry; June 2008 519 114 8 and July 2008 591 104 7 (3) how many were for brick/blocklaying? August 2008 595 106 6 September 2008 605 134 9 October 2008 667 151 9 Answer: (1) Between 1st May 2008 and 30th April November 2008 641 167 14 2009 my Department issued 9,038 work permits in respect December 2008 721 161 17 of individuals, for employment and self employment on the January 2009 926 171 18 Isle of Man. February 2009 980 178 16 March 2009 947 179 11 (2) 748 work permits were issued in respect of individuals April 2009 925 191 8 to be employed or self employed in the construction sector, of which 239 were renewal applications for individuals who had previously been granted permits prior to 1st May 2008. (3) 14 work permits were issued, for employment and self employment as bricklayers*, of which 13 were renewals. HM ATTORNEY GENERAL Since February this year I have instructed my Work Permit Committee to have personal scrutiny of all applications in the Legal Aid Green Form application construction sector in respect of new arrivals to the Island. Notifying other party re work done

*To clarify, my Department has previously determined that ‘blocklayers’ 52. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to would be treated as ‘bricklayers’ for the purposes of processing work permits. ask HM Attorney General: This is because any individual who wished to undertake such work would also need to be in possession of a valid craft card for ‘bricklaying’ issued by my Department, under the Certification of Craftsmen Scheme approved When a person is issued with a Civil Legal Aid Certificate by Tynwald in 1990. the other party is notified in writing that a Legal Aid

Death of ‘Baby P’ in England – Preventing similar occurrence in Island : Children at risk – Number without qualified social worker : Work permits in last 12 months – Numbers for construction industry and brick/blocklaying Unemployment in last 12 months – Numbers in construction industry and brick/blocklaying Legal Aid Green Form application – Notifying other party re work done Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 971 T126

Certificate has been issued; what procedures are in place to the same matter. In addition all Green Form claims are to notify the other party for any work undertaken on a assessed, one element of which is to consider duplication Green Form application? of advice. (d) Eligibility for advice under the Green Form Scheme is Answer: It should be noted that where ‘Green Form’ determined by the advocate. An online eligibility calculator work is referred to, this is a reference to advice and assistance is in place to assist them in this regard. which is provided under the Legal Advice and Assistance All Green Form claims are subject to an assessment Regulations 1997. process to ensure that the financial determination has been The principal purpose of the Legal Advice and Assistance undertaken correctly, that the work has been completed, is Scheme (as opposed to the General Legal Aid Scheme) is reasonable and is within the scope of the matter in hand. to deal with the giving of initial advice to a client who is Any issues identified would be formally raised with the unable to afford the full cost of an initial consultation with advocate prior to issuing the authority for any payment. an advocate (although it is possible that ‘small’ matters can be disposed of at such an initial consultation provided the Advocate can conclude the work within the prescribed time The Court adjourned at 1.08 p.m. limits). and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m. Advice under the Legal Advice and Assistance Regulations 1997 may be provided on almost any aspect of Manx law, except property transactions and matters on behalf of a business or company. Accordingly, there are many cases where there is no opposing party, there is no litigation Orders of the Day and, as a consequence, no liability for costs payable by an opponent, unlike in cases where full Legal Aid is granted, and no requirement to notify ‘the other party’. Manx Electricity Authority board decision In contrast to the Legal Advice and Assistance Regulations, Statement not made the Legal Aid (General) Regulations 1997, which deal with Legal Aid matters generally, require that the assisted person The President: Hon. Members, when we broke for our should notify the other party of the grant of a Legal Aid lunch we had completed the Question Paper. Turning now Certificate (section 17(2)(a). to the Order Paper, Hon. Members, I wish to draw to your attention that Item 5, a statement from the Chairman of the Manx Electricity Authority, has been withdrawn, so that will not be getting moved. Legal Aid Green Forms Hon. Members, in that place I will be asking the Minister Controls and checks against fraud for Transport, Mr Anderson, who has requested to make a statement. 53. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask HM Attorney General:

In relation to Green Forms and taking into account Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander successful prosecutions and convictions in respect of Statement by the Minister for the Treasury Legal Aid fraud in the UK – (a) whether there is a limit to how many Green Forms a The President: We deal now, Hon. Members, with Item client can have in any 12-month period, and, if so, what 4 on the Order Paper: Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander the limit is; – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury. (b) what the time limit is between repeat consultations Mr Bell, please. on the same matter, while claiming on separate Green Forms; The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Thank you, (c) what procedures are in place to prevent a client Mr President. progressing the same matter by claiming on separate The purpose of my short statement today is to outline Green Forms and how the Legal Aid Department the current position in respect of Kaupthing Singer and monitors this; and Friedlander and the proposed Scheme of Arrangement (d) what controls and checks are in place to ensure that and, in view of the adjourned debate appearing on today’s there is no abuse or fraud in relation to claims for work Order Paper at Item 10, to indicate that I will be moving an on Green Forms? amendment to seek a further adjournment of that motion until the July sitting. Answer: (a) There is no limit in this regard. Hon. Members will be aware that, on 9th April, in the (b) An applicant cannot receive advice on the same matter Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice in the Isle of on separate Green Forms within a six month period without Man, the Treasury asked the Deputy Deemster to order that the prior consent of the Chief Registrar. This is governed by meetings of the Scheme creditors be convened for a meeting Section 7(2) of the Legal Advice and Assistance Regulations to be held on 19th May 2009 to consider a Scheme to be put 1997. before the court at that hearing. The affidavits submitted in (c) As part of the Green Form application process, the support of that request have been issued to all Members. applicant is required to declare whether they have previously The Deputy Deemster agreed to that request and the received advice under the Green Form Scheme in relation joint provisional liquidators have issued the necessary

Legal Aid Green Form application – Notifying other party re work done Legal Aid Green Forms – Controls and checks against fraud Manx Electricity Authority board decision – Statement not made Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury 972 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day documentation in accordance with the court’s instructions and During the sitting of this Court in March 2009, the the meetings of the three classes of creditors took place at the Department was requested to further consult on the measures Villa Marina, Douglas, today. The results of the meetings will recommended in the Report on the consultation on the effects be reported back to the court on 27th May and at that time of the proposed Road Transport Act 2001 (Revocation the final course of action in relation to Kaupthing Singer and of Schedule 2) Order. As a result of the debate, Tynwald Friedlander (Isle of Man) Ltd will be determined. requested the consultation panel – including myself and Mr President, as both myself and the Chief Minister Tynwald colleagues, Mr Crookall and Mr Callister, and Mr indicated at the original February debate on the motion for Brendan O’Friel – to further consult on the recommendations the appointment of a three-person committee to investigate contained therein and report our further findings back to this the cause of the collapse of KSF (IOM) and associated Court for the June sitting. issues, Government is not against, and indeed supports, This further consultation commenced on 6th April and such an inquiry. At that time, we argued that the timing of we are aware of the need to consult as widely and as fairly as the initiation of such an inquiry was premature and that was possible and follow the process contained in the Government accepted by this Hon. Court. Guidelines on Consultation. The written element of the Mr President, given the current position and the latest consultation is not scheduled to close until 22nd May. At timetable I have just outlined, we believe that the initiation the conclusion of the written element of the consultation, the of the proposed inquiry remains premature and that it would panel may deem it appropriate to meet with some contributors be preferable to await the conclusion of proceedings on 27th for a further explanation of their views prior to completing May before moving forward with this. I will, therefore, Mr their report. Given these issues, it has not been possible to President, be seeking a further adjournment of the debate complete the report for the June sitting and, therefore, it until the July Tynwald. is hoped we will be in a position to present the completed Mr President, I apologise for the delay in bringing forward report by July. our Treasury proposals, but to ensure my key officers remain Mr President, thank you for giving me the opportunity focused on delivering a solution to the current procedure, I to move this. hope Hon. Members will agree that a further short delay is appropriate. The President: Mr Malarkey.

A Member: Hear, hear. Mr Malarkey: Thank you Mr President. It is concerning that this has been dropped out of the sky The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member. this afternoon upon us, without any pre-warning on the Order Paper. I understand the problems the DoT may be having Mr Cannan: I thank the Treasury Minister for his with this issue and I am quite sure the Court would love to Statement. Will he acknowledge that I accept his assurances support him. My concerns come from the fact that, in the that he will adjourn the debate to July, and I hope that, at that interim period, the RTLC has been listening to applications time, there will be no further need for debate, as I believe for further licences to be issued, and I would seek some the people of the Isle of Man are entitled to know what reassurance from the Minister that now we are delaying the went on? time period yet again… Although it was the wish of this Hon. Court, in – I am The President: Minister. not sure, I have not got my papers – January, that the RTLC should not listen to any more applications, they have been The Minister: Yes, I agree entirely, Mr President. doing so; they have got further ones coming up in the future. I had hoped we would have had most of the work finished I am concerned that further time delays waiting for the Report off by the May sitting of Tynwald to enable this to release to come back will just allow the RTLC to further hear more officers to address this problem, but I will do my utmost to applications and issue more plates. I would ask the Minister ensure now that my officers are in a position to co-operate to write to the RTLC, requesting that they do not issue any with the inquiry from July, because our concern is exactly more plates until this matter has come to a conclusion. It was the same as the Hon. Member’s: we want to see this under clearly the wish of Tynwald that no further application should way and completed as quickly as possible. be heard or issued until this matter was resolved. I believe that all people involved in this are working very closely with The President: Thank you, Hon. Members. DoT to try and resolve the issue. So, once again, I would ask the Minister to write to the RTLC. He tells us he cannot influence the RTLC, but that seems to happen one day and not another, so I would like Consultation into proposed changes to him to write to the RTLC, asking that they do not hear any Road Transport Act 2001 more applications until this matter is resolved once and for Statement made by the Minister for Transport all, forever.

The President: Now, as I indicated, Hon. Members, The President: Mr Anderson. Item 5 has been withdrawn, so I call on the Minister for Transport, Mr Anderson, who has made a request to make The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. a statement. In relation to the Hon. Member’s comments, I would like to point out that we follow the due consultation process laid The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank down by Government and therefore that is why we cannot you, Mr President. meet the criteria of coming back to June.

Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury Consultation into proposed changes to Road Transport Act 2001 – Statement made by the Minister for Transport Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 973 T126

In relation to the RTLC and their deliberations, they The President: Mr Malarkey. A question, sir. have taken legal advice, which quite clearly says they have a duty to carry out. Until the law is changed, they have a duty Mr Malarkey: Mr President, I would say to this Hon. to carry out their responsibilities and myself, as Transport Court this afternoon, if the wishes of this Court are not going Minister, I do not have the power to direct them otherwise. to be taken advice upon by the RTLC and if the Minister is not prepared to write to the RTLC and ask them not to issue The President: Mrs Cannell, Hon. Member. any more plates, that we should this afternoon decline this Remember we are down to questions, Hon. Member, to request to come back in July and make the DoT come back the statement. in June, because as far as the whole procedure is concerned, the longer we delay this, and the more plates that are actually Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President, I am fully aware issued, the more problems will actually arise and you will and will comply, sir. not get to answer. Is the Minister aware that under the legislation there is I thought we were making a step in the right direction no obligation for the RTLC to accept an application or to by making this Court’s feelings felt to the RTLC, that they take a fee? Does he appreciate that, once they do so, they are should not be issuing plates. All we are doing is having a obligated because it is perceived that a contract to consider delaying tactic here, which is taking us further down the has been undertaken? So there is latitude there. line, allowing the RTLC to issue more plates. I have been Would he further give an assurance or an indication, or asking the taxi trade – some guidance, as to whether, in terms of the unmet needs survey, which had a lifespan of so many years, is he aware… A Member: Point of order, Mr President. due to actually run out this year, probably prior to him coming back to Tynwald to report? Is it his intention to conduct a The President: Mr Malarkey, it is a question on the fresh unmet needs survey carried out by an independent Statement, sir. You are making another statement. Be organisation? careful.

The President: Minister. Mr Malarkey: I do apologise, Mr President. I am suggesting to the Minister for Transport that maybe The Minister: My understanding, Mr President, is that this Court this afternoon should not support the motion for the unmet needs survey does not run out until the end of this the very reasons I have mentioned. year, by which time we will have, hopefully, come back and The President: There is no motion, sir. (Interjections) reported to this Court with our findings. Do you wish to comment? I must point out again that the RTLC have taken legal advice and they are proceeding to do the job that they have The Minister: All I would say to the Hon. Member been asked to do under legislation. The situation is no is this is not a delaying tactic. We are trying to give the different than it was two months ago when I came back to subject matter the consultation it deserves and, therefore, the this Hon. Court last time. Committee cannot meet the criteria for coming back to June. We will do everything in our power to get back to July and The President: Mr Henderson. that is all I can tell Hon. Members, Mr President. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Would the Minister acknowledge that, whilst progressing the extension and the problems associated with doing that, Announcement of Royal Assent as indicated by Mr Malarkey, in fact he could convey to the Tree Preservation (Amendment) Bill Secretary of the RTLC our concerns here this afternoon? Certainly my view, Eaghtyrane, if he could, that in fact the The President: Hon. Members, we did this morning RTLC could stop, for the time being, or pro tem, issuing have circulated to this Hon. Court the Tree Preservation further licences, and a mitigation to that, to legal proceedings, (Amendment) Bill 2009. Hon. Members, I have to report would be the fact that they are respecting the wishes of that that Bill has this morning received Royal Assent. So Tynwald currently, which would, as I understand it, present with the statements out of the way and the Royal Assent a heavy weight in mitigation in any court proceedings. having been granted, Hon. Members, we can move on to the Order Paper. The President: Before I ask the Minister to reply, Hon. Members, I think we want to be careful that we are not initiating a complete debate on this again. The statement was relative to the delay in coming forward, which the Minister Welcome to Nenad Rǎsić had given the undertaking earlier. Kosovan Minister for Labour and Social Welfare Mr Anderson to reply. The President: Hon. Members, if I may just take a The Minister: In relation to the Hon. Member’s minute: before we move on to Item 6 on the Order Paper, comments, I would like to say that Tynwald did issue a I would like, on your behalf, Hon. Members to formally position some time ago to the RTLC. However, the RTLC welcome into our assembly in our Distinguished Visitors’ have taken legal advice and the position is the wishes of Gallery this afternoon, a visit of a Kosovan Minister, Nenad Tynwald do not override their legal responsibilities in this Rǎsić. I understand, sir, that you are the Kosovan Minister area. for Labour and Social Welfare.

Consultation into proposed changes to Road Transport Act 2001 – Statement made by the Minister for Transport Announcement of Royal Assent – Tree Preservation (Amendment) Bill Welcome to Nenad Rǎsić – Kosovan Minister for Labour and Social Welfare 974 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day

Sir, whilst I acknowledge that you are visiting the Isle of grandstand, which would, in any case, necessitate closure Man – a totally different country, I think, from where you of part of the track. The total contract sum in the capital hail from – nevertheless, as a parliamentarian, it is always programme is £500,000 of which £25,000 was approved for interesting, I think, to witness any other parliament in its pre-contract fees in the 2008-09 Isle of Man Budget. actual proceedings. I hope, sir, that you enjoy your stay here An athletics track is a proprietary product and it was on the Isle of Man, however short it may be. Welcome. decided to procure the project on the basis of a fixed-price design and construction tender, using a select list comprising Members: Hear, hear. the six leading suppliers in the British Isles. The Department of Tourism and Leisure received four tenders. The lowest tender was in the sum of £479,515 from G Thornton (Contracts) Ltd and our specialist advisers have confirmed NSC athletics track resurfacing that this was the lowest tender and represented value for Expenditure approved money. In the light of the tender level, the Department has had 6. The Minister for Tourism and Leisure to move: to review the scope of the project and has determined to reduce the total cost by omitting the replacement of the discus That Tynwald approves the Department of Tourism and hammer cage and the pole vault mat. This has resulted in an Leisure incurring expenditure not exceeding £475,000 adjusted tender sum of £434,981. Whilst the adjustments are in respect of the resurfacing of the athletics track at the necessary to meet the available budget, the reality is that, at NSC in Douglas. the prices quoted, neither of the excluded items represented value for money, particularly noting that the throwing cage [Reference: Item No. 6 under the heading Department of is relatively new and the pole vault is unlikely to feature in Tourism & Leisure on page 9 of the Isle of Man Budget the final athletics programme for the 2011 Commonwealth 2009-10 and as included in the Capital Estimates 2009- Youth Games. 10 to 2013-14 on page 57 of the Isle of Man Budget Mr President, the funding breakdown is set out in full 2009-10] in the explanatory paper circulated to Hon. Members and, including a small contingency, this brings the total cost The President: We therefore, Hon. Members, move on of the project to £500,000. Since £25,000 has previously to Item 6 on the Order Paper which is the Resurfacing of the been voted, I am today seeking approval to spend a total of NSC Athletics Track and I call on the Minister for Tourism £475,000. and Leisure, Mr Quayle, to move, please. With that, Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. The Minister for Tourism and Leisure (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. The outdoor section of the National Sports Centre in Douglas was originally constructed in 1990-91 and Mr Gill: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, sir. incorporated a six to eight lane synthetic athletics track. The surface of the track had an initial design life of 7-10 years, The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. at which stage its life could be extended by 5-7 years by overspraying the original wearing surface. The initial wearing Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. surface was duly oversprayed prior to the 2001 NatWest I have a concern, not in what is being proposed, because Island Games to restore the track to full quality. I fully approve that we have to have these facilities well As would be expected, the athletics track is now showing maintained and in good order, in order to host some very major signs of wear and it is starting to break up in places. prestigious Games in the Isle of Man, which is very important There are also significant problems with bunding in inclement to our profile, if you like, within the world, basically, and also weather and, in short, it is now almost worn out after 20 of course, it is essential that we hold such Games. years of use. What I have a concern about is on the explanatory In addition, of course, we are hosting the 2011 memorandum on page 2, at 2.6, are the words ‘euro exchange Commonwealth Youth Games, so it is important that we put rate’. That is when my alarm bells begin to ring, Mr President, our facilities in the best order as we showcase the Isle of Man because we have already had our fingers burned in respect of to around 70 visiting Commonwealth nations. that, on one particular project not very long ago. The resurfacing of an athletics track must be undertaken It says at 2.6 that although all the tenderers are British in dry, warm conditions and, as we know, athletics is a companies, much of the raw material for the project is from summer sport, although predominantly major competition the euro zone. Does this mean that we are going to have tends to take place in May to June, especially in an Island to part-pay for this project in euros? If so, are we going to Games year. The main resurfacing work must, therefore, forward purchase in good time at a decent rate? If not, how take place in July to August, depending upon the onset of are we going to pay? Are we paying in sterling? autumn weather. This means that the final part of the project, My other question is in respect of having the facilities to the laying of the track, may have to be delayed until the host such prestigious games: is the Minister able to advise following spring, since the total project period will be in the at this juncture what is happening with regard to the Bowl? region of 16 weeks. Is that going to be done or not? If it is, is it going to be done We have decided that the optimum timing for the in time, when we are hosting these games? Has the Minister resurfacing of the track is commencing in July 2009 and this been able to resolve the situation, and is he prepared to part has been timed to coincide with work to the roof of the NSC finance or whole finance?

Welcome to Nenad Rǎsić – Kosovan Minister for Labour and Social Welfare NSC athletics track resurfacing – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 975 T126

If he can give us an update, whilst he is on the subject ‘Athletics is, of course, a summer sport, although predominantly major of the Games. competitions tend to take place in May and June.’

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. The Minister either does not understand the sport of athletics or he is attempting to try and mislead us in this Hon. Mr Lowey: Yes, Mr President, it will be no surprise to Court. I should point out to the Minister that the majority of anybody that I rise to support the Minister and the Department athletic competitions actually mostly take place in January in the refurbishment of the athletics track. and February in the indoor season and between May and If ever there was an investment that I think this August in the outdoor season. The serious Manx athlete Government could be proud of in the last 20 years, it is the competes off Island, both indoors and outdoors, and trains NSC. I take no credit for it. I just happened to be the person all year at the National Sports Centre. there when it was getting finished. The planning that went At paragraph 1.6, the memorandum states that the into that, I think was Mr… the Treasury Minister and others, final part of the project, the lining of the track, may have whom this Court gave the money to do it. The best investment to be delayed until the following spring. Does this mean for health and especially for the welfare of young people in that the track could be closed completely for nearly a year the Island! – remembering that next year is the Commonwealth Games It is unfortunate that these things wear out after a certain – or is it the intention that only the part of the facilities that length of time, but we have had good wear out of this is being worked on will be closed at any given time? I would particular project. The only reason why I am on my feet is to be grateful for some specific details, as far as this point, from voice a little disappointment that the Department – and I can the Minister. understand the reasons why, so I am not detracting my support Eaghtyrane, Hon. Members, we are aware that the in any way – but I do think the pole vault and the hammer- closure of the athletics track will cause the most problems throwing cage, elements that are not being progressed with to the field-event athletes, especially those high-jumpers this, is a disappointment to me, because I think what we have which the Hon. Member of Council has just mentioned. got to do is challenge young Manx athletes into areas that, As there are no other suitable high-jump facilities existing anywhere else in the Island, those Members who follow in the past, we have not had in field events quite a success sport will be aware that there are two Manx track and field that the Island comes to expect. athletes currently training on the Island, with the highest UK We have very high expectations of our athletes in any ranking, and they are both high-jumpers. Will the Minister sphere of sport now, but I would remind the hon. mover that tell this Hon. Court the specific measures he will be taking, the high jump, for example, we have a national champion so that these two athletes will continue to train as the track in young Martin Aram from down south and, who knows, is being refurbished, especially in view of representing the which pole vaulter or hammer thrower may be lurking out Isle of Man at the Commonwealth Games in India next there waiting to be developed. So, to that extent, I would urge year? Will he personally – and I mean personally – meet the Minister not to discard the development and to finish it with these athletes and others, and their coaches, so that he in some future year. understands fully the requirements, so that he can ensure I used the word that this is an investment in people, and that appropriate arrangements can be taking place for these young people in particular, but it does have a lasting effect athletes and others? on the health of the nation, because young people investing Returning to the cost to the Manx taxpayer for the project, in sporting facilities for young people will have, undoubtedly I would like to ask the Hon. Minister, what attempts has his in my view, a health implication later on in their life where Department made to obtain any commercial sponsorship they will be all the better for taking part in sport. to fund part of the costs? Has he offered any sponsors the I commend the Department for bringing this forward at opportunity to put their name on the facility, like the Reebok this particular time. Stadium? Has he tried to obtain any funding with the change in the agreement, as far as the UK Lottery is concerned? Has The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. he rigorously investigated all the possibilities? If not, I would respectfully suggest he should be going back to the drawing Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, Hon. Members, I look at board and starting again. this item from a slightly different viewpoint. Whilst I am At the beginning of my speech, I referred to the huge supportive of the general thinking behind the motion before amount of taxpayers’ money that has been spent on the us today, I am concerned about the cost to the taxpayers at national sports facilities over the years. I am not against this time when budgets are so tight and the future is more the facilities, but I would pose the question, have we had uncertain than ever before for the last decade. sufficient audit into the system? In common with other parts I am concerned about the huge amount of taxpayers’ of Government, I would suggest there has not been sufficient money that has been spent on these facilities at the National audit in order to ensure that the funds have been spent wisely Sports Centre over the years. Has it been sufficiently audited and in a manner which is most effective. I would also suggest in the system? Is the money being spent where it is most that there has been insufficient correlation between the needs effective to assist the sportsmen and women of the Island, or of the athletes and those who make the decision makers think is there evidence of just empire building? Are there excessive that should happen. The result is more money is spent than layers of management and bureaucracy? Is the Sports Council necessary, but with less useful effect. Attitudes need to change being as effective as it can be? I think all these areas need at the top. The thinking needs to be more athletics orientated. improvement, but I will return to that later. We need leaders who are inspirational and motivated, not In the explanatory memorandum, in paragraph 1.5, it empires and more pen pushers. states that: For example, the Manx Institute of Sport building we

NSC athletics track resurfacing – Expenditure approved 976 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day have recently completed at the NSC, with a lot of taxpayers’ the facilities we have. I urge the Minister to be more proactive money: all very impressive at first glance, but what does this in the future. building contain that is not available elsewhere on the Island? Eaghtyrane, if we are going to put taxpayers’ money into Not a lot. The NSC complex has two gymns, built and fitted sport facilities, then we need to ensure that they are used out at the taxpayers’ expense. What is the logic in this when effectively and efficiently. To achieve this, attitudes need to there is a private-sector gym, which has better equipment, change, starting at the top. I have given some examples of just a stone’s throw away? some of the sort of things that need looking at. I hope the Hon. Minister will take on board my comments. A Member: How do you know? In order for me to support this motion, I am seeking a commitment from the Minister to institute some changes on Mr Karran: The National Sports Centre grandstand the lines, I would suggest, of a much more athletics orientated looks impressive enough, but it faces the prevailing wind, is approach, with less bureaucracy and empire building. I have partly opened at the back, and any Hon. Member who has sat asked the Minister a number of important questions and in it, hoping to get any shelter from the wind and rain, knows when he is replying to the debate, I hope he gives us specific that it is fairly useless. One has to ask who designed it and set answers, not generalities. If he cannot answer this now, I the track in this way, and more importantly, who approved hope that he will circulate it later, because I cannot support this before it came to Tynwald? This is just another example a motion unless I am satisfied that we are going about the of where we need more scrutiny in the decision-making right decision-making at the right time. process, where taxpayers’ money is being spent. Finally, I do think that in these times, especially when The Manx Sports Aid Foundation, which was basically a we have heard the Minister for the Treasury so often on good idea, just like what we have got in front of us here today, to us, have we looked as far as external sponsorship is has become bogged down in paperwork and bureaucracy in concerned? recent years: so many Manx sportsmen and women do not I do hope that the Hon. Minister does take on board the even get involved with it now because of the basic amount of comments that I have raised, because I think it is important hassle involved with… what it is worth for the small amount that what we need to have is a clear, strategic, well-thought- of money being spent out. If there is to be a performance co- out policy, that is so lacking on so many fronts and has been ordinator, it should be someone who has the inspiration and through the years of boom in this Island. I understand that the motivation, and not a paperwork generator who has the this situation on this Item has got to be done in order to help opposite effect. I am not blaming the individual concerned, facilitate the Commonwealth Youth Games on the Island, but who is clearly performing his master’s requirements. The I do think that it highlights again the need for some strategic fault lies higher up: we should not be blaming the monkey long-thought policy decisions that are made, so that the when the organ-grinder is at fault. Either way, is it a salary decisions are made… so that, in this case, we actually do wasted that could be more usefully spent actually helping the full service that every Member in this Hon. Court wants the sports people. to give the sportsmen and women of this Island. We are not Another problem of the National Sports Centre would doing this if we do not start changing the way we make our appear to be the lack of strategic forward planning. What decisions. We could be much more effective and much more assurances do we have that this item in front of us is part of efficient, as far as making sure that we get the services that any strategic planning, as far as looking long-term? As Hon. our athletes want. Members know, there have been a few separate buildings Finally, Eaghtyrane, I totally agree with the Member of erected piecemeal around the athletic track at different times Council about the issues and the value of sport on this Island, over the years. For the amount of money that the taxpayers the need for us to try and encourage our young people, as a have spent, with better planning and design we could have former Member for Health, but I also think it is important had some indoor training facility that would have been far that we need to get the people who are making the decisions better for athletics. (Interjection) actually talking to the people at the grassroots who have made With regard to the management of the NSC, do we really these representations to me, who are concerned that valuable need the layers of management, all the different uniforms, all resources are not going to the very thing that everyone in the different receptionists, as far as the building is concerned? this Court wants to do. Put the rungs in the ladder so that our This actually helps the Hon. Member for Ramsey, when he sportsmen and women on the Island get the best equipment talks about where he needs to channel his resources to spend and the best facilities at the best price for the taxpayers of his money better. the Isle of Man. I do hope the Hon. Minister, the mover, does Eaghtyrane, this motion is seeking funds for the take on board these points, because I think it is important improvement of sports facilities, and I have no problem that lessons need to be learnt. with that principle. But, in recent years, we have seen so much destruction of various sports facilities on the Island, The President: Mr Gill. mainly as a result of property redevelopment, with the loss of sports halls and flood-lit tennis facilities at Mount Murray, Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. the 10-pin bowling alley at Castle Mona, the facilities that I have to congratulate the previous speaker for reading were above The Venue entertainment centre, and what did the prepared speech so eloquently. Clearly he was not very the Tourism and Leisure and Sports Council do to try and familiar with it, which is not surprising, as he has evidently preserve these facilities? From what I have seen, not a lot. not written it himself, and it was vaguely familiar to his How many of those planning applications did they vigorously RESA scripts that he has prepared for him – perhaps there oppose at appeal? We do need to be asking ourselves why is a commonality of that. we should be pouring more money into improving sports I was going to say ‘in regard to some of the specifics’; facilities, when Departments seem to be unwilling to preserve there are very few specifics in what he says. Certainly,

NSC athletics track resurfacing – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 977 T126 it would be a misunderstanding to imagine for one brief The President: Continue, Mr Gill. moment that Mr Karran speaks on behalf of the sports community on the Isle of Man. I find that a very interesting Mr Gill: Yes, thank you, Eaghtyrane. claim. I would be interested if he could actually justify it a bit better than the empty rhetoric that we have heard for the Mr Earnshaw: Have a cup of tea! last 10 minutes. What I would say, on behalf of the Sports Council, Mr Gill: The sponsorship agreements that we have which is made up of volunteers who give up their time and managed to make for the Youth Games have been significant effort to actually represent their sports, and sports generally and have been, in no short measure, down to the single- on the Isle of Man – and they do a fantastic job and should handed efforts, in many cases, of Mr Geoff Karran MBE, be congratulated for their endeavours – is that they are the and I think if he was listening to this then he would be conduit for representation from grassroots participants rightly questioning whether his commitment is actually in sports, through their organisations and through to the appreciated by those Members who should know better. I Department. So that facility does exist. It might not exist to think they do – I think that there is pure mischief-making the satisfaction of everybody who has a self-interest, who is – but I would certainly like to reiterate, from my role as a disaffected and goes through their mouthpiece of Mr Karran Member of the Department, for which I receive remuneration, but that would be wrong for us to lose sight of the fact that and there is no issue with that… I would like to reiterate my the Sports Council has that role and the Sports Development appreciation, and I am sure that of the Department – and the Team within the Department complement that through their Minister, in his summing up, can echo this, I have no doubt professionalism. – to all those people I have alluded to, for their continued The NSC equally complements that and I think it is assistance to make sport the great success story that it is in extremely remiss and reprehensible that Mr Karran slags off the Isle of Man. the staff and the staffing deployment at the NSC, without any We were also told that the Sports Institute replicates specifics. If he has got any specifics, perhaps he would be provisions which could already be found elsewhere, and kind enough to circulate them, but just a general rubbishing therefore it was redundant and supernumerary. That actually of people who cannot answer back is pretty contemptible – (A is a reflection of just how shallow the knowledge is from Member: Hear, hear.) but pretty expected, frankly, and if you Mr Karran, or his adviser, whoever that may be. Perhaps have made a career out of it, doubtless you will continue to Mr Karran would like to advise us who his speechwriter is do that. I think I will treat that with contempt. on these occasions. In relation to the sponsorship, the Department already do actually enjoy a number of sponsorship arrangements with The President: Mr Gill, perhaps we could all come back a number of organisations. Indeed, just last Saturday some a little closer to the motion on the Order Paper. of us… I did not see Mr Karran, the voice of sport there, (Laughter) but perhaps if he had been at the HSBC Manx Mr Gill: Yes, sir. The motion on the Order Paper is for Youth Games, the largest participant event in the Manx (Interjection by Mr Karran) sporting calendar – resurfacing a track at the NSC and the criticism that we have faced with that is largely Mr Karran: Point of order, you are paid to be there, irrelevant – the design of the grandstand – in a time when the mate. Absolutely. majority of this Court were not in the Court – Mr Karran was. I wonder if he had the same words of wisdom at the time that Mr Henderson: A shameful comment. that vote was given and the design was accepted? But back to the Sports Institute. It does have a very Mr Gill: It is a true comment, I am paid to be here, just as specific purpose if, in one breath, we are told that we are to the glorious leader of the Liberal Vannin Party was, up until promote elite sports achievement in the Isle of Man and then he suddenly found his principles post-election when he was we support the Sports Institute with sponsorship funding, but literally forced into it by his then colleague, Mr Malarkey, with Government funding as a partnership. If we support so I do not think I will take any lessons on integrity from Mr that, then we are told that is a waste of time: it is absolutely Karran. (A Member: Hear, hear.) irrational and inconsistent. What the Sports Institute will do So going back to the issue of sponsorship, we do enjoy – and I have no doubt will do extremely professionally – is a very healthy relationship and times are tight. Obtaining to promote and provide support and supporting programmes sponsorship for the Manx Youth Games has been an to elite sportsmen and women to represent the Isle of Man, extremely challenging undertaking and I have to say, an not only in the Island, not only in the British Isles, but across extremely challenging undertaking primarily made – the world. I think that we should be congratulating those individuals Mr Henderson: Excuse me, Eaghtyrane, I would just for that and this motion is a small but important part of that like a point of order/clarification. This is going out live this overall programme and I very much commend it to this Court. afternoon and it needs to be pointed out that no Member was I hope it will be supported overwhelmingly. paid to attend those Games; we went voluntarily, including Mr Gill, as it happens. The President: Chief Minister.

The President: Alright, Mr Henderson, the point is Mr Karran: Have I hit a nerve? made. The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Henderson: I find it very offensive. I really got up – I was not going to say anything on this

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– in relation to some of the comments the Hon. Member for a euro contract. Would the Minister confirm that, if this is Onchan, Mr Karran, made. In fact, he fired a message back supported in Tynwald today, the contract will be signed at to the Hon. Member who has just resumed his seat, Mr Gill, this figure and there will be no further movement in respect the Member for Rushen, when he, Mr Karran, said, ‘Don’t of any changes vis-à-vis the euro, should any exchange-rate shoot the messenger.’ (Laughter) occurrences happen during that time, so that in fact the risk The point is you are meant to believe in what you say in will be with the contractor and not with the Department on Tynwald Court, not just give a message. That is, as far as I that particular point? am concerned anyway, and quite clearly, coming back to the Could he indicate also whether there have been any issue, the only issue is about whether or not we resurface the negotiations on the other fees which are listed here, including athletic track. If we do not, it will deteriorate to a standard the professional fees? Clearly, the figure of £3,219 is a that will mean it is unusable. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) We tidying-up figure put in to bring the whole thing to £500,000. are talking about an investment of something in the region of Is that realistic? Has that changed in any way? Would he £30,000 a year from self-borrowing from Government from indicate what analysis has been done on all these heads and itself, paying it back, which is a total capital cost of £475,000 whether any of them have moved, as well as the contract to secure the running track. sum? We had all this tirade of why and what is wrong with what we are doing in sport. I can say, Mr President, we had The President: Mr Bell, Hon. Member for Ramsey. a Sports Strategy endorsed by this Hon. Court. I was very proud to endorse that because I have seen, since 1987 or Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. 1988, whenever it was, how much we have advanced sports If we ever need evidence as to why the Isle of Man will facilities right throughout the Island (A Member: Hear, hear.) never fulfil its full potential, we only need to listen to the for the benefit of our young people and not-so-young. To speech of the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. (A be honest, to quote private companies who have decided to Member: Hear, hear.) What a disappointing speech on such close down facilities, like a bowling alley and so on… That an important issue that we have before us. And how short was their decision – that is not our decision – and they have the Hon. Member’s memory is, from when he supported this to live by that, for whatever reason. scheme back in 1991 when it was first opened. Mr President, the issue is quite straightforward for us: Mr President, I had the pleasure, when I was Minister for do we want to continue to have a good-standard running Tourism and Leisure, to actually set this whole issue in train. track? It has been in place for around 20 years now. It needs I established the National Sports Centre and, with Steve Ovett replacing, repairing, and we have to do it. All the rest of in 1991, I opened the Sports Centre. Prior to that, a massive what was said by the Hon. Member actually is just a waste amount of work; we consulted with every single sports body of volume and of no consequence. I think it is sad that we on the Island, individuals, politicians, including the Hon. have people in our community who are far more negative Member, to actually identify a long-term sports strategy for than they need to be about things that we are doing that are the Island. The National Sports Centre itself was only one very beneficial to our population, (Mr Earnshaw: Hear, part of a much broader strategy, which I am very pleased hear.) and, as far as I am concerned, I will certainly support. to see we now have virtually been able to deliver over that I want it justified, and I will stand and say what I believe, period of time. Extensive debate took place, as to what the because what I believe, even when people do lobby me, is it priorities should be, what the scale of the development should is the right thing to do in this Hon. Court. I hope Members be and a very robust debate took place prior to 1991 to the will support this motion, sir. scheme going ahead, which ultimately identified what that strategy should be. The President: Mrs Christian, Hon. Member of I was very proud, Mr President. It is one of the highlights Council. of my political career, I have to say, that we actually got the National Sports Centre established. I believe it has Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. been one of the jewels in our crown over the years because I certainly support the principle of getting the athletics virtually everyone who has come to the Isle of Man who track resurfaced and will vote for this motion, but I would has utilised that facility, or even seen that facility, has been like to ask some questions of the Minister, please, in respect amazed how such a small community can develop such a of the figures which are before us. high-quality facility and that has shown its… had its impact The memorandum indicates that the total contract sum for on the quality of performance of our athletes over the years, the capital programme is £500,000, of which £25,000 was not only on the track and on the field, but also the cyclists approved for pre-contract fees in the 2008-09 Isle of Man who use the stadium. We have some 350 cyclists a session, Budget. Does this mean that the professional fees figure, a week, using that and Mark Cavendish himself came up on page 2, of £40,600 includes that £25,000 pre-contract through those ranks. That, I think, shows the quality. So for fees? It is noteworthy that the Department are cutting their the Hon. Member now to turn round and criticise the whole cloth according to their means and trying to stick within operation, the way it has been designed is the height of the their budget, notwithstanding the euro issues that they have hypocrisy because the Hon. Member supported it and voted highlighted. for it at the time when it came through, so it is a bit late in However, I wonder if the euro implications for this project the day to come out with that. (Mr Earnshaw and other were taken into consideration when the Budget was drawn up. Members: Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for East Douglas had commented on the I am also very disappointed, Mr President, in his attacks euro situation, but I take it from what information we have on the personalities dealing with the development of sport, got here that this contract is actually a sterling contract, not particularly the Sports Council. They have done an absolutely

NSC athletics track resurfacing – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 979 T126 fantastic job over the last 10 or 15 years in developing the The President: Mr Callister, Hon. Member of Council. strategy which we set up at the end of the 1980s and early 1990s. The successive members, Brian Partington and, Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. latterly, Geoff Karran, the very successful chairmen we have I could have got up here to talk about Pickering Torkildsen, enjoyed, the members on that committee have worked their the history of all of this and the services provided. We all socks off to help develop and further sport on this Island. know about those. I am quite amazed that this debate is now We have not heard any comment to date, when they running to an hour, (A Member: Hear, hear.) (Mr Earnshaw: have enjoyed the success. There has been no criticism from Absolutely.) and what we really know, Mr President, is that the Member for Onchan then, about how badly it has been this is needed. We know we should vote for it, we know we run: he was happy to bask in the glory, the shared glory, of probably all will vote for it, (A Member: Vote!) with the what the Isle of Man has achieved. I think it is very, very possible exception of one, (Mr Karran: No.) and I think disappointing, Mr President and it will be very demoralising we should get on and do that, Mr President. for those people currently both associated with the Sports Council and, indeed, working at the National Sports Centre Several Members: Hear, hear. to hear such critical comments from the Hon. Member, who is, in fact, speaking on behalf of other people and not even The President: Mr Quayle to reply. his own personal experience. I think that is very disappointing for this Chamber. (Interjection by Mr Karran) I know a lot The Minister: Thank you, Mr President, and can I about sport and I know a lot about the establishment of the thank all Hon. Members for their contributions, except, I National Sports Centre. have to say, the Hon. Member for Onchan. He is entitled to Mr President, we have spent well over £20 million express the speech that was written for him, and I was rather developing that Centre and its various stages over the years saddened to – and I think it is something we should be shouting from the rooftops with pride for. It is an amazing achievement and it Mr Karran: Point of order, Eaghtyrane. Who wrote the has been a massive boost for our young people on the Island, original speech for you? Was it the Civil Service, or was it especially when we are so critical of our young people and – the fact that, allegedly, there is little for them to do. There is a fantastic amount for them to do and it is there on display at The President: Mr Karran, that is not a point of order, the National Sports Centre. (Members: Hear, hear,) sir. Mr President, I just felt I had to make those comments to put in context that Mr Karran has been a supporter, or at least Mr Karran: I think the point is people’s integrity – insofar as voting for the National Sports Centre, from the start and it is a bit late in the day now to come out with these trite The President: It is not a point of… Mr Karran! comments, which have no foundation whatsoever. I support, obviously, the proposal that is before us. We Mr Karran: It should be the same for both sides – have to recognise that things like the track, like the artificial pitch, wear out after a period of time. They are artificial. The President: Mr Karran! With wear and tear they do suffer. We also need to be aware that, with the track especially, we have heard it is ponding, Mr Karran: – even if I am a minority of one. it is wearing in places, it is actually becoming dangerous for athletes now because of the deteriorating state of the surface The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. and, therefore, to protect the athletes who use it, it is vitally I will come to the response to Mr Karran’s comments in important that it has to be renewed. I think it has had a good due course . lifetime – we have had good value out of it and great results Turning, first of all, to the Hon. Member for East for the Isle of Man and for the individual athletes using it. Douglas, Mrs Cannell, she raised a comment about 2.6 in the Yes, finances are tight at the moment; yes, we have memorandum, about the euro zone and the costs. In terms to prioritise our expenditure. Nevertheless, in spite of the of that, I can inform this Hon. Court that the original tender message I am sending out that Government, as a whole, came in above the budget and is explained by fluctuations has to be more stringent in approaching its expenditure, I in the euro exchange rate. Whilst this contract is in sterling, believe it would be a retrograde step to pull back from our the contractor is purchasing his raw materials from the euro continuing commitment to sport on the Island, to providing zone and his tender reflects this. It is emphasised, however, the best-quality facilities for our people on the Island. I urge that since we have a fixed price tender in pounds, any risk Hon. Members to ignore the rubbish that the Hon. Member now sits with the contractor. (Mr Quirk: Hear, hear.) The for Onchan has just come out with and please give their contractor is, however, aware of the fact that, subject to full support to this. I think it is a great endorsement for the Tynwald voting today and hopefully giving approval, then people involved in sports management on the Island and a he will be awarded the contract and, in order to meet the great endorsement for our young people who are developing timescale, then he is very well aware of the situation. So, and growing through the use of the facilities we provide for the risk sits with him, and this is in pounds. them. Mrs Cannell also enquired about the Bowl, which was not covered really in this particular motion, apart from A Member: Hear, hear. myself mentioning about the Commonwealth Youth Games and the need to have the track. I think there have been Mr Karran: Who said I would vote against it? numerous Questions and Answers given in this Hon. Court

NSC athletics track resurfacing – Expenditure approved 980 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day and elsewhere about the Commonwealth Youth Games, and With that, Mr President, I think I have covered most of the Bowl. All I can say is discussions are ongoing fruitfully the points and I beg to move. with Douglas Corporation and I look forward to a successful conclusion of those. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) I thank The President: The motion, Hon. Members, that I put her for her support. to the Court is that printed at Item 6 on your Order Paper. Thanking also Mr Lowey, Hon. Member of Council, and Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. a past member, indeed, who was always very supportive, and continues to be so, of sport on the Island. He is supportive A division was called for and electronic voting resulted of the refurbishment, but disappointed about some of the as follows: omissions. All I can say is, Mr President, we have fought to keep this under the budget that has been allocated, and that In the Keys – Ayes 24, Noes 0 is why some things have had to be dropped; but we note his comments and will no doubt see, if money in the future FOR AGAINST does arise, then it may allow us to provide extra facilities, Mr Quirk None Mr Earnshaw but that is subject to funding being available and looking at Mr Karran various priorities. Mr Brown In terms of the contribution from the Hon. Member Mr Crookall for Onchan, Mr Karran, it was his opportunity today to Mr Anderson grandstand, if I could use that expression, and really I am just Mrs Craine Mr Bell so disappointed, as other Members have been in this Hon. Mr Quayle Court. I think the message from this Court goes out to the Mr Teare people of the Isle of Man that the Liberal Vannin supporters Mr Cannan must have been astonished to hear this diatribe that we have Mr Cregeen heard this afternoon, and there is an inconsistency in what Mr Houghton Mr Henderson I would suspect has been a prepared speech for him. When Mr Malarkey he departed from the prepared script to the end where, on Mrs Cannell the one hand, he said earlier ‘defer this scheme’ and in the Mr Braidwood end, he was welcoming the fact that it needed doing right Mr Corkish Mr Shimmin away. So there were inconsistencies there. A lot of the points Mr Cretney have been swept up by my friend and colleague for Rushen Mr Watterson and Member of the Department, Mr Gill, and I thank him Mr Gawne for that, and also in terms of the contribution from the Chief Mr Gill Minister, the Member for Castletown, himself a former The Speaker Department of Tourism Minister, as well as the Treasury The Speaker: Minister, again a former Minister (Interjections) – a former Mr President, the motion carries in the Keys, 24 votes for, none against. Tourism Minister. He mentioned about the lack of strategic forward In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0 planning. The very fact that this is a facility that is wearing out means it has been done in a timely manner. It has not FOR AGAINST been done earlier than was required; it has not been done later Mr Callister None than was required. It is a typical example of good planning to Mr Crowe ensure that it is being completed, subject to Tynwald approval Mr Downie today, at the optimum time. That is good planning and that Mrs Christian Mr Lowey is what should be recognised. Mr Waft I do also agree with the comments… I am proud to stand Mr Butt here and acknowledge the contribution from the Sports Mr Turner Council, from the voluntary sector, from all the people who give sterling work in terms of their efforts, their fundraising The President: Similarly in the Council, Hon. Members, and the hours that they give voluntarily. They are a lesson unanimity, 8 for, none against. Hon. Members. The motion to so many people around the Island. (Mr Henderson: therefore carries. Hear, hear.) That is very much welcomed, and I hope it continues despite the hectoring note of the speaker from Onchan today. I think, in terms of the Manx Sports Institute, how Supplementary Capital Authorities 2008-09 disappointing it is for them when they have put in such Expenditure 2008-09 approved massive efforts to provide this facility, and it would not be provided unless it had been done by the private sector. It is 7. The Treasury Minister to move: going to be opened this week, and I congratulate everybody involved in that because they have gone out to the private That Tynwald authorises the Treasury to expend in respect sector and they have raised so much money themselves. of the year ended 31st March 2009 from the Capital They are to be congratulated, and for people to be pouring Transactions Account sums not exceeding £4,411,084 in cold water on the whole idea is just so disappointing to them payment of the items set out in Column 6 of the Schedule and to me. hereto –

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1 2 3 4 5 6 arose due to the purchase funded from the Land and Property Department Item Project Vote Actual Excess 2008-09 2008-09 2008-09 Acquisition Reserve and corresponding amounts will be £ £ £ transferred from this reserve to reimburse capital for the Education 1 Classroom Scheme Phase 1 payments made. Braddan Sch Ext – 399 399 The Chief Financial Officer has, of course, to honour 2 Covered Play and Teaching – 390 390 3 CRHS Drainage – 6,301 6,301 contractual obligations and has had to make the payments 4 Disability Access – 1,772 1,772 shown in the schedule in respect of capital schemes, even 5 Fire Certification Works Phase 2 – 150,350 150,350 though it was evident that the schemes were going to 6 Peel Clothworkers Extension 79,400 138,820 59,420 overspend the financial provision made for the financial year 7 Ramsey New School North 2,296,000 2,586,794 290,794 8 Renewal of ICT Intranet 450,000 452,880 2,880 2008-09. It is often difficult for the Department to forecast Infrastructure the value of payments to be made in a particular year on a scheme which overlaps several years. Any overpayments Health & 9 Central Community Healthcare - 172,177 175,492 3,315 arising may be the result of underpayments in previous Social Phase 2 years and insufficient moneys being carried forward, or they Security 10 EMI Unit (Central) 3,716,800 3,899,271 182,471 11 GP Surgery Palatine 757,000 823,336 66,336 may arise from continuing schemes, with the provision for 2008-09 being overspent because work proceeded quicker Local 12 Acquisition of Land 700,000 2,067,593 1,367,593 than anticipated. In the latter case, the overspending in the Government & 13 Ballacubbon 804,573 964,755 160,182 current year is anticipated to be offset by reductions in Environment 14 EPH the Bretney – 6,478 6,478 subsequent years. Tourism & 15 Ballafletcher Pitch As I have said, in a number of cases the projects are Leisure Development 200,000 251,725 51,725 incomplete and have proceeded faster than expected and 16 Minor Capital Works 760,000 862,439 102,439 additional funds were authorised for 2008-09 onwards in 17 Villa Marina Arcade 1,587,956 1,680,342 92,386 18 Villa Marina Refurbishment – 31,303 31,303 the February 2009 Budget. Mr President, I will leave any detailed comment, if Transport 19 All Island Refurbishment of 1,500,000 1,666,584 166,584 necessary or appropriate, to the relevant Minister responsible Infrastructure for that particular scheme. I beg to move. 20 Aprons, Aircraft Stands Taxiway – 44,244 44,244 21 IRIS White Hoe Cottages 1,100,000 1,456,740 356,740 22 Master Plan All Island – 7,363 7,363 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. 23 North Quay Enhancement Scheme Phase 2 497,038 584,799 87,761 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and 24 Phase 6 – Departure Lounge Extension – 46,928 46,928 reserve my remarks. 25 Plant Replacement Programme 400,000 475,895 75,895 26 Purchase of Land 600,000 1,434,093 834,093 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Callister. 27 Strategic Highway Refurbishment 1,500,000 1,610,488 110,488 Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. 28 Transmission Main /Castletown – 4,454 4,454 Three queries, really. On the area relating to transport on 29 Transmission Main page 4, IRIS White Hoe cottages, I would like to ask if the White Hoe to Santon – 100,000 100,000 sale of those cottages is now complete and that these figures 17,120,944 21,532,028 4,411,084 are final figures. Note: With relation to the note regarding the fact that some of Column 6 shows the Supplementary Capital Vote required to authorise the these matters are items that have been brought forward and overspending of the Vote that occurred in the last Financial Year. Exceeding so on, out of this £4.4 million, can the Treasury Minister tell the Vote for the year does not necessarily imply that the total cost of the us just what that amount is, in fact, in other words, what we project approved by Tynwald has been exceeded. Exceeding the Vote for are really voting for here in real terms? Now I have been the year can arise simply because a project proceeds faster than originally handed some information which I had not got before. Thank estimated. you very much. The third question is: will this facility be available for The President: We move on to Item 7 and I call upon the Treasury and for us this time next year? the Treasury Minister to move, please. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, the need for the supplementary authorities arises from those Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to ask, items of capital expenditure where the amount spent in the following on the Member of Council, it would be interesting last financial year exceeded the capital vote approved by to know if the Department of Transport can tell this Hon. this Hon. Court for that year. However, I can reassure Hon. Court, instead of just nodding things through, the fact is that, Members that, during the last financial year, no projects is this the £1.452 million, the total cost, as far as the IRIS exceeded the total amounts approved for the lifetime of each White Hoe cottages and, if not, can he tell us how much project. The schedule accompanying this resolution, as set money extra, as far as that issue is concerned? Allowing out on today’s Order Paper, shows in column 6 the excess for the fact that this is a cost that we are taking out at great capital expenditure during the last financial year, for which cost to the taxpayer, allowing for the design faults and the approval is now necessary. bad location of this building, we will almost certainly end The largest of these related to purchases of land and up with… because of no audit, that people who have made properties by the Department of Local Government and the those decisions will not be held to account, so the taxpayer Environment and the Department of Transport. The additional ends up being at least £1.4 million lighter, for the fact that expenditure incurred in the financial year for these schemes no-one will be held to account.

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I would also like the Shirveishagh for the Local We do not have capital projects that go millions over Government to give us a breakdown – I mean, I think any budget. That is something that we are quite strong on here acquisition of land should be applauded, as far as trying – it is something that they could perhaps learn a few lessons to get more affordable housing on the Island. Could the on in the UK – but I do think that this is something… and it Shirveishagh explain to this Hon. Court the extra £1.3 million has been mentioned before and I will mention it again this and what sites have been actually increased, as far as that year and hope that next year it gets picked up on, that there is concerned? is a bit more clarity or there is a press release that goes out This is a Chamber which is supposed not just to nod with this that there is far better communication, or maybe things through; it is supposed to hold the executive to a far better representation of the motion, in terms of saying account and the explanatory memorandum here is pretty light what has been brought forward and what has been put back, on information. I would also like the Shirveishagh for the so as to clearly illustrate – to underline Mrs Christian’s point Department of Transport to explain to us about the access, as – that we have not overspent, that this is us bringing things far as the £100,000 for the transmission, as far as the White forward or expanding things, rather than a £4.4 million Hoe to Santon is concerned. Could he possibly give us some overspend, which is not the case. idea of why this is, is it a design failure and before expecting this Hon. Court to nod through these particular issues? The President: Hon. Member, Mr Anderson. I do hope that the Ministers will provide that information and I think that, maybe next time when we are dealing with Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. this thing, maybe there needs to be a bit more of a broader Building on the last speaker’s comments, in relation to brief of actually what we are agreeing to within this Court, the queries that have been asked about the IRIS scheme and if we are to have some sort of audit by the parliament over the purchase of the properties in the White Hoe area, I can the executive, that does not seem to think that the parliament confirm that is the total sum, as the Hon. Member for Onchan is the executive within this Hon. Court. asked, expended to secure those properties. In relation to the figure on the transmission main, that The President: Mrs Christian, Hon. Member of basically is money that was spent years later than expected, Council. but, as the Treasury Minister has already pointed out several times, it has not gone over the spend for that scheme. Mrs Christian: On the same theme, Mr President, I do think that, in previous years, it has been highlighted The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. which schemes have actually gone over their budgets, rather than going over their budgets in this particular year. Mr Quirk: Sorry. That information is not contained in these documents – (Interjections) The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.

The Minister: None. It was in the presentation. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. The explanatory memorandum really should be more Mrs Christian: You said none. Well, I am sorry, I missed explanatory in its format, (Mr Karran: Hear, hear.) because that, so I apologise and withdraw my remarks. It would have it would make things simpler. been helpful, perhaps, in the memorandum which came to us It is quite clear on the back of the Notice of Motion, before the sitting to have had that information. it gives us the schedule and, of course, there are 12 items in column 4 that merely have a dash, in terms of the vote The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. 2008-09, and then you go into the actual and the excess, and it gives you those amounts. But there is nowhere within the Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. explanatory memorandum to say those matters, those items I know that this has been raised before and so I am largely where there is a dash in column 4 are matters which have echoing Mrs Christian’s comments. been brought forward or started earlier. Therefore, if one I believe one of the other issues that was raised before in was to calculate the 12 items in column 4 in terms of what relation to this particular motion, which is an annual motion, they quantified in column 6, that would then give you the was some sort of applicability of some sort of de minimis limit answer to the Member’s question that was raised by the Hon. as well, so that there could either be a transfer from revenue Member of Council, Mr Callister. Then you would be able or a blanket Treasury approval up to a certain amount either to say that actually the £4,411,084 is the total amount of the way. What you cannot tell, from looking at this document, is excess vote. However, 12 items amounting to whatever can what are its timing differences, whether it is late or whether be taken off that amount and that will then give us the true it is early, whether it is something that has been shifted back figure, in terms of any kind of overspend. or brought forward. That then, when you look at the motion I think for Hon. Members in the future, Mr President, as it is laid out before you, if you are an uneducated reader there should be a clear indication. I do not think it is sufficient you are going to think that things are overspent, because for the Minister, when moving, merely to say this is not there is a column there that totals up that has got an excess overspend; some items have been moved or brought forward, of £4.4 million. That is not the case, but you can forgive, to whereas they were only scheduled to have any expenditure an extent, those people who just pick up the Order Paper and placed upon them in, say, 2009, 2010 or 2011. I think it needs do not have a detailed knowledge of how the Government’s to be more specific in terms of the explanation. accounting system works, and look at that and think we have overspent by £4.4 million now. Everyone in this Court knows Mr Callister: Hear, hear. that that is not the case, but that is a big message to get out there, especially to the media and to the public. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey.

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Mr Lowey: I sometimes think this Court loves a little has answered the question on the White Hoe. Other than that, bit of self-flagellation; (A Member: Hear, hear.) it really Mr President, I would just simply say that I have listened does. Some of us have been around a long time in here, to what has been said, it will be passed back to my officers. and we have evolved. I can remember the days when This is a tidying-up exercise, as the Member of Council, Departments – or Boards, as they then were – had to come Mr Lowey said, it is a bookkeeping exercise. No money is and say, ‘Look, we’ve spent a bit more.’ This is really only overspent and, provided a discipline is maintained across about an accounting exercise of the schemes, where we are, Government – answering the Hon. Member of Council, Mr if you brought them forward it… I think, in fairness to the Callister’s point – I very much hope we will be in a position Treasury, they have in the past few years – when I say the next year to be able to carry out the same exercise. past few years, maybe the last eight or nine years – brought I beg to move. the collective group of Government together in one to give us the state of the nation. It is nothing short of… We have The President: The motion I put to the Court is that brought forward, and there are some instances where we printed at Item 7 on your Order Paper, Hon. Members. Those need to do that. in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Honestly, Hon. Members, if we want to improve ayes have it. matters… and I do not have any objection – I am sure the Treasury Minister does not have any objection – to Members saying, ‘Look, well, we could do this perhaps a bit better in presentational form,’ and I am sure the Treasury are always Communications Development Programme open to that sort of advice, but today I get the feeling that Expenditure approved we need to give ourselves a lashing. Hon. Members, if you have read the papers that have been presented to us earlier 8. The Minister for Home Affairs to move: today on the state of the nation’s finances, we should not be flagellating ourselves – if that is the word – or criticising That Tynwald approves the Department of Home Affairs ourselves for getting the schemes up in advance of where incurring expenditure not exceeding £4,240,000 in they should be. I do believe that what we are attempting to respect of the implementation of a Communications do is talk ourselves into a depression. There is nothing to be Development Programme. depressed about in these figures, (A Member: Hear, hear.) nothing whatsoever. In fact, I think some of the Departments, [Ref. item 3 under the heading ‘Home Affairs’ on page 8 their expenditure has brought forward the schemes a little of the Isle of Man Budget 2009 10 and on page 55 of the bit earlier than necessary. As far as I am concerned, that is Isle of Man Budget 2009-10] to the good. I do honestly want to say to you that this is no more than The President: Item 8. Minister for Home Affairs to an accounting exercise. I agree with the sentiment that where move, please. Mr Earnshaw. we are overspent that should be flagged up, but then I am sure the Treasury have picked up that message. If Members wish The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Earnshaw): Thank to see it in a better form… I see nothing wrong with the way you, Eaghtyrane. in which it is presented now – we can add another column The motion before this Hon. Court relates to capital if you want – but let’s give advice to the Treasury. They are expenditure in respect of a five-year communication there to listen, I am sure, but on this one there should not be development programme, which was approved in the recent a debate. We should be saying, ‘Good, we’re within budget: Budget. get on with it.’ The Communications Development Programme is to finance the maintenance, replacement and enhancement of The President: Treasury Minister to reply. facilities for the terrestrial trunk radio system, better known to most people as TETRA, and the Emergency Services Joint The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Control Room. An explanatory memorandum has already I take on board the comments which have been made been provided to Hon. Members for information. about presentation. We did listen last year to the position Mr President, the Government Strategic Plan for 2007-11 that… or the request that was made for schemes which were has as one of its aims, and I quote: overspent to be flagged up and the reason it is not flagged up this year is because nothing is overspent, everything is ‘to provide high-quality, public services at maximum efficiency, whilst within budget! having regard to the cost to the community.’ We can spell out everything, Mr President, we can go on and on. It depends how much information Members want and One of the Department of Home Affairs’ stated objectives I have to say that if Members have a particular concern, the is to invest in information and communications technology, Treasury offices are always open. The door is always open, ensuring clear and specific benefit opportunities are identified they can come along and raise the specific issue and we will and met. The TETRA and Emergency Services Joint Control ensure that adequate information is given. (Mr Henderson: Room (ESJCR) systems are at the heart of this objective and We do.) Some Members are very good, they do – I accept that form the cornerstone of Government policy in respect of – and Mr Henderson is one of them and I welcome that. communications. These systems, which became operational Mr President, I do not see any point in going through in April 2004, have ensured that the Isle of Man remains every point because it is just a general comment about at the forefront in the provision of emergency services improving information. The Hon. Member for… wherever he communications and provide a joined-up approach across is from – Glenfaba – (Laughter) the Minister for Transport, Government and ultimately it has improved the service

Supplementary Capital Authorities 2008-09 – Expenditure 2008-09 approved Communications Development Programme – Expenditure approved 984 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day provided to the residents of the Island. It is essential, however, efficiently as possible. The approval of this motion will that funding is made available, not only to ensure the systems ensure that aid continues to be delivered. are maintained at their current level, but that investment is Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I beg to move the motion printed made in new features and functionality. at Item 8 on today’s Order Paper. Moving on to the details of the programme, which, as I have already stated, is a capital programme over the next five The President: Hon. Member, Mr Waft. years, the total cost of the programme is £4.24 million and consists of expenditure in the following areas. The provision, Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. firstly, of a new maintenance and support contract for the As a Member within Home Affairs with responsibility for TETRA system; secondly, the TETRA system functionality the communications division, I wish to second this motion. upgrades, including the replacement of the vital tape- The integrated communications network, which comprises recording facilities; thirdly, a rolling replacement programme the TETRA and ESJCR systems, are a crucial element in our for the TETRA handsets and vehicle terminals, which are in ability, not only to respond to major incidents and emergency use across the 21 Government user organisations; fourthly, an situations, but also to allow Government organisations to antenna replacement programme at the 21 remote sites which carry out their normal, day-to-day, operational activities. form the communications infrastructure; fifthly, a complete Since the systems became operational in April 2004 the independent system audit; and finally, the Emergency TETRA system has handled almost 6 million calls, while the Services Joint Control Room hardware replacements and control room has dealt with 169,000 emergency events and software upgrades. 79,000 emergency 999 calls. The key performance indicators Mr President, although there is mention of enhancements, (KPIs) which have been set, have achieved or exceeded and I would stress that the vast majority of the work programmed particular mention should be made of the ability to answer relates to maintaining the status quo of both TETRA and 999 calls in under two seconds. No other jurisdiction can the ESJCR, in terms of service delivery and performance manage that figure. indicators, and is therefore considered vital. Additionally, However, Mr President, it is vital that funding is made the programme aims to achieve benefits in terms of new available to ensure that the systems continue to operate technology and functionality, subject to identified need and efficiently and therefore maintain the service delivered to business case approval. There are several elements to the the residents of our Island. programme, which are planned to be implemented over the I would also like to take the opportunity to reinforce the five-year period. Each element will be subject to a business Minister’s statement that the vast majority of the programme case requiring the approval of both the Department and the is necessary to maintain the systems at the required level of performance and that any enhancements would only be Treasury. introduced on the basis of identified need and business case Mr President, in light of the current economic situation, approval. I am well aware of the need to only incur expenditure if it is Although many events have been successfully dealt with considered necessary, and as identified in the memorandum over the past five years, I would just like to highlight two, to Hon. Members, only critical year 1 elements will be which are at the core of our operation. Firstly, the ability of implemented in the current year. I can also confirm there Government to respond effectively during the major storms are no additional revenue costs, other than loan charges of January 2005 and, secondly, the ability to support and co- connected with this programme. ordinate all emergency operations during the recent tragic Mr President, the TETRA and ESJCR systems are not events of the arson attack in Demesne Road. only crucial to the three emergency services, but also to Mr President, the integrated communication network, the 18 other user organisations across Government. The TETRA and the ESJCR have fully justified the initial capital organisations include the Department of Tourism and Leisure, expenditure and have brought many benefits, and it is vital not only for the running of the TT and Manx Grand Prix races, that investment is protected. but also their bus and train operations; also Departments and I therefore beg to second, Mr President. Statutory Boards such as the Department of Transport, the Water Authority and the Manx Electricity Authority, enabling The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member. them to carry out day-to-day operational activities. The systems which are in use on a 24/7 basis, 365 days Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. a year, have brought many benefits in terms of improved I would also like to support this motion, basically from response times, officer safety and a joined-up approach the bottom of my heart, simply because it has been a great across Government for dealing with major incidents, and I improvement. It has proved, in itself, its worth to the Isle of believe they have been one of the real success stories of our Man and its residents, since its inception in 2004. I cannot Island Government. tell you, Mr President, the number of lives that have been Mr President, the TETRA and ESJCR systems, which saved by a proper, new, co-ordinated approach, which the provide a totally integrated communications network, are Emergency Services Joint Control Room has provided, by the envy of emergency services across the world. However, the simple fact of it being co-ordinated. I can tell that to it is considered crucial that continued investment is made. Hon. Members from a previous experience that I had in one As a Government, we are often criticised for not protecting of those emergency services, when the approach was not so or planning for the future in respect of major capital co-ordinated. Now it is, and when someone needs real help, schemes. The approval of the Communications Development emergency help, in violent circumstances, or when they are Programme by this Hon. Court will address this issue. ill, or when they are seriously injured in road accidents, this Finally, Mr President, the published mission statement technology that has been brought in, and been operational of the Communications Division is to assist the emergency in a very successful way for the last five years, goes to the services to respond to people in distress as quickly and credit of all of those people who work in the Joint Control

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Room. Nonetheless, I have to compliment the gentleman in in the early days, which was Bulgham Bay. Is that covered the Distinguished Strangers’ Gallery, Robert Williamson, now? Perhaps less essential than Barregarrow, but a comment because this was his brainchild. He saw this right through from the Minister just on that as to the development of those to its inception, and then has steered it ever since, with the two areas – and, specifically, Barregarrow is quite vital, really, able support of Bill McCann and his wealth of other officers in that particular area. who work 24/7 in the Control Room. So with that, thank you, Mr President, and I would support Hon. Members, if any Hon. Member has not been round this motion in its entirety. the Control Room to see for themselves what actually happens, I would very strongly advise that they do so, because The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member for Onchan. those of us who live in the Douglas/Onchan area will now know there is never a moment in the day when there is not Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. a siren through the day and sometimes in the night, where I wish to just ask the Minister a few questions, if I could, the emergency services are responding to emergency calls. regarding the five-year programme. I was just wondering The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Waft, is quite right that whether, as part of the assessment for the future five years the Emergency Services Joint Control Room who handle all – because we are talking into the future there – the resilience this additional work – additional and growing work – and of the equipment… and is there any being brought into the… within two seconds of the call coming through from Manx or possibly so-called risk assessment to say whether… if Telecom, I think is testament to the way that this equipment we are funding this equipment up to this five-year period, has actually been worked and managed. once we get to the five-year period we should be looking So if you like, Mr President, if we take it along the other into something different or a new technology. I just wonder side, the Isle of Man has grown into this project. If this project whether that has been brought in. had not actually been in being, there would be nowhere I know the Minister is responsible for the DHA regarding near the service that the public has grown to respect and the use of TETRA and the other system, the ESJCR. Has know from the emergency services, because all they see is the assessment ever been done about ‘minusing’ the use of an emergency response on their doorstep in moments. That mobile phones, because there is a duplication of equipment is because of the co-ordination from the Joint Emergency out there that… Possibly there could be a saving because Control Room. That is how vitally important all of this is. sometimes people may find it easier or more convenient So even though the Minister is coming to this Court today just to use a mobile phone than actually use TETRA. I just for a little over £4 million, this is to be spent over a five-year wondered, on the ones that the Minister is involved with, has period, and we have to bear in mind that the control room, that been looked at? that had the highest-quality computer equipment and radio He mentioned about the tape recording. I presume he does equipment – as has been spelt out by the Minister today – put not mean tapes? I presume we are going towards a digital in the control room in 2004, five years ago, an awful lot of recording system. that equipment is wearing out and needs to be replaced. Don’t The other question is regarding the 21 sites, like the forget the PR set on every emergency services officer gets an Hon. Member for North Douglas indicated, a replacement awful lot of hammer. It gets dropped, knocked about, this, programme across… Is it the 21 sites that are to have new that and the other, and of course they are personal handsets aerials? Is it just additional sites? Is it just a couple of belonging directly to that particular ambulance driver or that sites? particular PC. It is vitally important that all of that equipment The other issue I wanted to try and bring out was really needs to be updated and replaced as time goes along, and the service, the maintenance of the equipment. Is it by one that is why I see the need for a five-year rolling programme provider? Do we have any expertise that is actually cultivated put before the Court this afternoon. on the Island, or in-house, because if we are planning for the Mr President, the control room itself and its technology future… It is, whether we like it or not, a quite substantial are the envy of all, but one point I would like to ask the amount of money – £4.2 million up to the five years, and that Minister, if he could answer this… I do know that, some time is not very long when you consider the life of equipment. I ago, there was a blackspot for communications around the just wanted to make sure that the expertise is actually on the Barregarrow area. Of course, you have stated in the briefing Island, or we do grow our own when things do go wrong? paper, at (f), that the antenna replacement programme across the 21 remote sites will continue. Can the Minister advise The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member. whether the communications blackspot, as I call it, anywhere from between Handley’s Corner and Westwood on the TT Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. course, will actually have this additional cover put in, a It is not often in this Hon. Court that I totally agree with repeater mast put somewhere in the area of Barregarrow the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Houghton. to cover that area, because also that is a dangerous area for traffic accidents, as we know? Also, as the Minister said, they Mr Houghton: Well, good, you’re coming my way, need good and transparent communications for the TT. Do anyway! (Laughter) they still use the old Civil Defence system of communication or, indeed, are they able to use their TETRA communications Mr Braidwood: The Emergency Services Joint Control for TT purposes in that area, but more so for that area, for the Room and the TETRA radio system has been an unqualified fact there are a number of dangerous corners that, of course, success. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) It was always do see a number of road accidents? So, simply, does this also envisaged, when we opened the Emergency Services Joint cover a repeater station for Barregarrow? If not, will a further Control Room in 2004, that at the end of the maintenance motion be brought for that, because the whole purpose of contract, which was five years, we would have to do another TETRA is to blanket cover the Isle of Man? maintenance contract – I presume it is with Motorola, who There was another area, too, where there were problems were the first providers of the system – and also enhancement

Communications Development Programme – Expenditure approved 986 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day of the TETRA digital handsets. Hopefully, the technology spend this sort of money at the present time, because I think it will be there over the next five years where, in actual fact, is important that we do know that. I believe that the situation particularly with the police officers, photographs of missing is it is quite right to talk about the two-second response time, children will be able to be sent down to the radio so that but if you have not got an ambulance in the north of the the officer has a photograph of the child and is able to then Island or in the south of the Island, it becomes a matter of peruse the area and look for the child, instead of having to priorities, as far as your emergency services are concerned. go back and get photographs from the station. It will also, I think that what we have got to get in this Hon. Court is to I presume, be able to give us real time. There are special get away from the pack party system that we have in this buttons on the TETRA radios for police officers so that, if Court, and start just asking some fundamental questions they do have an emergency, that is immediately depressed about how things are. That is why – Mr Watterson, the Hon. and they will get assistance. Also, at times, we want to know Member for Rushen – I add into this debate the fact that we where those officers are, and if they do require assistance have to prioritise how we go about these things. That is why their position will be noticed through the Emergency Services I personally feel that this item, unless there is some national Joint Control Room and officers will be able to be sent to disaster at the present time, so that it has to be approved their assistance. today, I believe that the Department… I move: Mr President, it is money well spent. The Emergency Services Joint Control Room was the first control room to put To leave out all the words after ‘Tynwald’ and insert: the Police, Ambulance and Fire Services together. We have ‘notes the plan of the Department of Home Affairs to had people from all over the world come to the Isle of Man incur expenditure not exceeding £4,240,000 in respect of to look at the Emergency Services Joint Control Room and the implementation of a Communications Development to see how our system works and, as the Hon. Member for Programme and resolves that the matter be referred to North Douglas has said, if Hon. Members of this Court have the Public Accounts Committee for investigation and not been round, they should go round. (Mr Houghton: Hear, that the Committee report on this matter to this Hon. hear.) It is an eye-opener. It shows where they can trace the Court in July’. ambulances, where they are. They can tell the people that the ambulance will be arriving in two minutes, one minute, and If there is not a national disaster, there is not an issue of it is all real time. I would say to all those new Members, if ultimate concern, I believe that is the sort of thing that this they have not had the opportunity, please take it up. Hon. Court should be considering. Obviously, this Hon. Court will have to listen to what the Minister has to say, but what The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. I am saying to this Hon. Court is has there been sufficient information to see why the priority is this now? We have Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, it is very refreshing to know heard from the former Minister, where the contract is going. that the former Home Affairs Minister actually supports What I am concerned about: is anybody in here… maybe the this proposal, as far as this Court, and supports the former former Commandant for the Home Affairs Department… Commandant of the Police Specials on this issue. for the Police Force, might have the technical knowledge, But I think we do need some reality into the situation. but who is independently putting technical audit into these Yes, I think it is important that we recognise that we have things? afforded… and back in 2000, we paid out – what was it? – £7 I do hope that this Hon. Court, if it does not get a million for this proposal and have spent a lot of money. I am satisfactory response, will support my proposal that it should very proud that we have spent that sort of money. We have be going to the Public Accounts Committee, and what is been in years of boom, when we have had that luxury, that it – a matter of two months? Let them do their technical opportunity to be able to not worry about audit, and just nod audit, let them come back and say yes, the Hon. Member for these things through. Onchan is wrong. Eaghtyrane, I remind the Hon. Member, I will try not to keep to too much of a prepared statement: just remember about MEA, IRIS and many of the other it might upset the Hon. Member for Rushen, and I might end issues that I have raised in this Hon. Court and I think that up with another hissy fit from him… Oh, he is not here! Of the Hon. Member for Rushen should be a little bit more course! But the point is the fact that I think that we need to concerned about his outbursts, as far as the pack mentality. be asking ourselves, when we are in light of the situation with What we have got to do, Eaghtyrane, is be responsible. I patient transfer, and the problems that we have got, when we believe the Minister needs to give you justification why it are in light of the way we spend our money, that we have is urgent now. If it is not urgent now, if it can be put off for little or no information, I would like to see…. And I will two months, then we should be looking at whether there do one thing, with some questions. I have not heard what is should be some sort of independent, technical assessment wrong with the present system. We have heard the former on this proposal and it should be coming back. That is a Minister for Home Affairs on about putting pictures down role for your Public Accounts Committee. You can spend the situation. Is that the only reason? Would it be cheaper your public money once and I believe that you must try and for us to have mobile phones, as well as this, in order to do make sure that what we do not want is a situation that we so? I believe that what we need to be asking is what are the must be sure – and I am not saying that it is the case – that benefits, as far as the replacement of this system, how it is we are ending up with something that is better specified than provided, over the current one. I think these issues need to is required. But what I am concerned about, is whether we be asked and I do not think it… have had that fair, independent, technical assessment, as far When I see here, a two-page document for £4.24 million, as that is concerned. I think we deserve better, Eaghtyrane. I think we have got I am moving this proposal for this Hon. Court and I to start being more responsible, Eaghtyrane, and I think that understand it would take a very brave Member to force the the Minister, the mover of this proposal, should be asking us, debate on this issue and a vote on this issue, because we will what is wrong with the present system, and why we need to see whether it is right or wrong at a later date, Eaghtyrane,

Communications Development Programme – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 987 T126 but I am putting it down on record, just like the chickens about the mobile phones. No doubt those who have them will have come home to roost on other issues. I am not saying have a million reasons why they have to have them, because this is wrong. What I am saying is, that it is dangerously they can get the e-mail, the Internet and all these other things irresponsible with the lack of information and some sort of on them. However, the point is: is it really necessary for them independent, technical audit, outside the people who have to have it to do their job? It may be nice, but is it necessary? the most interest in this, actually being done. I hope this Hon. In a time when we are all trying to look at expenses, I think Court will support the amendment standing in my name. there will be a great number of these that are not necessary to have mobile phones. It may be unpopular, but if we are The President: Mr Turner, Hon. Member. going to spend this money over the next few years, and issue these sets out, I certainly think we need to look as to whether Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. they need a TETRA set and a mobile phone. I rise due to a point made by the Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. I would like to, maybe, expand on that and that is The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member for Malew the issue of the use of mobile phones. I understand that the and Santon. TETRA system can interface with the telephone network and I wonder if the Minister could investigate – I do not expect Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. him to have the answer for us today – but how many people I, too, spent an interesting evening last TT at the who have the TETRA set also have Government account Emergency Services Joint Control Room, and I would mobile phones and as to whether the issuing of those phones recommend it to any Member to go there, (Mr Houghton: is really necessary? Hear, hear.) especially after kicking-out time, into the early I must admit the explanatory memorandum is a little hours of the morning, and just see what the staff in the bit light on information, but what I will say is certainly the Emergency Services Control Room really put up with. Emergency Services Joint Control Room is the envy of I did have one concern, which was the late arrival of the many other jurisdictions and I know it has had many visitors explanatory memorandum. It turned up on Friday, which coming in to look at our model and see if they can implement does not give us a lot of time to review what you are actually a similar system. doing, and I would hope, in future, that when you come The other point I would like the Minister to consider, as forward with something, you would actually give us a bit this is looking at a long-term strategy for the network, is to more time to scrutinise what you are bringing forward. It is do with the TETRA system itself and the infrastructure that a good system and like the Member of Council, Mr Turner, supports the TETRA system and that is the subject of the said about the mobile phones, could you possibly circulate masts and the towers. I believe a great number of the sites, the cost of the mobile phones and what saving it would be to which the Department has the TETRA radio equipment on, your Department, if you were to go down the line of removing are owned by what was the BBC and the IBA, which has since these. But you must ensure that we have all-Island coverage been privatised and are now all owned by a company called for the TETRA, so you do not have these blackspots where Archiva, which is owned by a company called Macquarie, people would have to rely on a mobile phone to get any who we might be familiar with. Because of when these information forward. sites were put in, they are in strategically the best locations I would look to the Minister to give a reassurance that, in around the Island for telecommunications. I wonder if the the future, he would give us more time for these explanatory Minister would be able to circulate the details of how much memorandums to scrutinise what he is actually up to. rent Government is paying to this off-Island entity, which I believe is not even established here and whether there is The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. any merit in the Department seeking to take ownership of these important pieces of infrastructure at some stage in the Mr Lowey: Yes, very much on the last point, speaking development of the system? as a critical friend of the Minister, the Hon. Member for Certainly, I think, given the importance of the location Malew and Santon got his on Friday, I got mine today. Do of these facilities, there may be a good business case for the not ask me why or how, but I got it today and if ever there Department taking ownership of them at some stage, either was a need for a technical session for the Members to ask through a voluntary purchase or a compulsory purchase of technical questions, it was on this, because this is £4 million, them. They also have the benefits of generating revenue it is not fourpence, it is not £400, it is £4 million and I think for the Department in terms of sharing with other users the the people really ought to, you know, when we are dealing mobile phones, Internet and so forth, so there may well be with that sort of money – benefit in exploring that. Mr Houghton, the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Waft: Over five years. raised the issue of blackspots and I think the Department should also maybe investigate any problems with the Mr Lowey: – then – over five years, I accept that – and let planning review that is on at the moment, in problems it me say straightaway that I think one of the driving forces of has in securing permission. At the end of the day, these are the success of the Isle of Man over the years has been good critical masts for the emergency services network, and delays communications, externally, off the Isle of Man. That is what can inevitably be held up with planning applications. Radio allowed us to grow as a finance centre. No ifs and buts about towers are not particularly popular in people’s backyards, that, we can put our finger on that and if it is important for but they are a necessary evil, particularly when it comes to external use, it is equally important for internal use. police, fire and ambulance. I think there may be scope for So I start from that premise, that we need to have submission there for some sort of permitted development of good information technology and I have not the slightest emergency services infrastructure. doubt in my mind that the proposal is one very worthy of But I would just like, before I finish, to reiterate the point support, because I was the person that actually appointed Mr

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Williams to the, I think it was the commission… technical sorted out. It was a blackspot there, but that has been sorted director and it was many years ago in the mid-80s and he out. had a distinguished career outside of Government before he Mr Quirk, my colleague from Onchan, talks about came home and I am delighted to see him still in post doing the programme. It is an ongoing programme. It is hard to sterling work for the Isle of Man. So I have no difficulty in predict. Others have said that a lot can happen in five years, accepting the technical advice of that particular gentleman. in technological terms. A lot of things can change, and who It reassures me, that is why I am able today to support this can predict the future so far ahead? I certainly cannot. All measure, but I do want to say to the Minister that where we we have got to do is to keep our eye on it and try and keep have technical matters and huge expenditure of money, then up with future trends and developments as they occur. One I do think we should at least get the opportunity to have an positive on this: we have asked for a budget here which is, explanation. I say that as a critical friend to the Minister. I to some extent, a funding exercise. Some of the costs have do not think, whether it is three days or, in my case, three come down. What we pay for the TETRA equipment at the hours, is enough. moment – I am just hoping Mr Williamson will nod his head However, as I have said, I have taken all of these things – I think it is less than we were paying in 2004. So we are into consideration and I am quite prepared to accept the getting the benefits of costs coming down on some of the technical advice that has been given by the Minister today in equipment that we use. his opening remarks and I will be voting for the resolution. Mr Quirk mentioned recording: it is digital recording Perhaps that is not quite the scrutiny that I would give other at 21 sites. As far as I am aware, the antenna programme expenditure of £4 million but I do take on board the fact is to replace aerials at all of those sites throughout the that it came from Mr Williams, whom I have the greatest programme. The service contracts are with Motorola, in confidence in (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) so I am happy to terms of the TETRA system, and with Intergraph, regarding support that, but £4 million…. The only other final word is, the Emergency Services Joint Control Room. in technology terms, five years is a long time. I would have The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Braidwood, was asked the question, is five years the optimum time? Quite Minister, I think, at the time of the launch of this. I remember honestly, I think it is the maximum time, with this sort of attending the launch myself… He is very proud of it, as am technology, because I agree with my hon. friend, Mr Turner, I. I thank him for his ongoing support and for his comments that in five years’ time, technology may have caught up and that he has made today. we may not be in this position that we are in today. Mr Karran, my other colleague for Onchan, mentioned I do believe that it is worthy of support, but I hope the the two-page document. I do not think he was very pleased Minister will take on board the criticism in the manner in at only having two pages. Point taken, and points have been made earlier on in the last debate, the earlier debate with which it is given. the Treasury. It is a question of getting the right balance here. You try and judge these things as best you can. You do The President: Mr Earnshaw to reply. not want to come down too much and, on the other hand, you do not want to put in too much of an overload. Perhaps The Minister: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. we got it right for some people, and not quite right with I would like to begin by thanking Members for their others. Another point he made was about reference to the positive comments today. I will work through them. First of Public Accounts Committee. That amendment has not been all, I would like to thank my seconder, Mr Waft, who works seconded, thankfully. I have no problem going there, but I closely with Robert Williamson, the Technical Director, and think it would be a rather pointless exercise. I would like to his team at the Emergency Services Control Centre, and say to him and to other Hon. Members, we have already been thank him for the work that he does for the Department and audited, and that was a successful exercise. for his input today. Mr Turner: I would like to thank him for the valid points I have got to thank my friend the Hon. Member for North that he has made, regarding mobile phones. I have not got Douglas, Mr Houghton, for his very favourable comments, a the answer to everything here, but I am sure Mr Williamson glowing tribute, that he has made today. I do not always get will have been making a note of some of his comments. The those glowing tributes from him in debate! So I do appreciate TETRA system is for on-Island calls only. You cannot phone it! He extended… well, he did not extend the invitation, but across the water with that. So it is just within the Island, he recommended people to visit – those who have not visited within our own boundaries. But he makes a wise point, and the communications centre, to do so, and I would like to I think Mr Quirk also made the point, about mobile phones. I make an official invitation to any Hon. Members who would agree with them. Mobile phones are very convenient, because like to take that up to contact Mr Williamson or me, and we of their size, they slip easily into your pocket. The TETRA will fix that up, because it certainly is well worth seeing. It equipment is slightly more cumbersome. It is not too bad, but is a good experience to go there, because the Hon. Member it is certainly not as convenient as a mobile phone. I would for Treasury mentioned in an earlier debate today a jewel imagine that is going to change as time goes by, and they will in the crown, regarding the NSC. This is another one. (Mr become a lot handier to slip into your pocket or wear on your Houghton: Hear, hear.) clothing than the equipment we have at the moment. Specifically, Mr Houghton asked about blackspots. I am But the control of mobile phones across Government is aware there is a problem at Barregarrow, in that area, round not within the remit of my Department. It is up to individual Handley’s Corner. I think there are a few on the Island. Chief Executives how they decide who will have what. Some of them are places where nobody lives, but ideally we My own Chief Executive has control over the Department would like to cover them. I think there is still a problem at of Home Affairs, but that is as far as it goes with us, but Barregarrow, and I am informed, at the moment, because of I do think it is a very valid point. He is asking how many planning issues, that is an ongoing problem there. duplications are there across Government. I have not got that Regarding Bulgham Bay, I am informed that has been information, but I shall try and obtain that.

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He also made the comment about a lightness of That Tynwald – information. I have already dealt with that. The rents for the (1) approves the Department of Local Government and sites: I do not know the answer to that one, either. But I will the Environment incurring expenditure not exceeding undertake to examine that situation. I do not know who the £1,800,000 for the development of 12 apartments for owners of the site are exactly. He has informed us who he public sector rent at ‘The Steadings’, Farmhill; thinks it is; I will get some more information about that, and (2) authorises the Treasury to spend out of the Capital discuss the matter with Mr Williamson. Transactions Account during the financial year ending My hon. friend in the Council, Mr Lowey: just a light 31st March 2010 a sum not exceeding £1,600,000 and bit of flagellation from him regarding this! He said he only £200,000 during the financial year ending 31st March received the memo today. Well, I know they are a little bit 2011; late, and I do apologise to Hon. Members for that. I delivered (3) approves of and sanctions borrowings not exceeding them myself, so I know they went into Members’ pigeon £1,800,000 being made by Government, such borrowings holes on Thursday morning last week. So, quite how it has to be repaid within a period of 30 years; and taken from Thursday morning to Tuesday morning to reach (4) approves the transfer of £1,800,000 from the Housing him… Perhaps he had better have a word with Reserve Fund to the Capital Transaction Account during Post Office about that! the year ending 31st March 2010.

Mr Lowey: I’m doing that! Pigeon post! The President: Item 9. Minister for Local Government. The Minister: There must have been a hold-up somewhere, but I cannot explain it, because they did go into The Minister for Local Government and the the pigeon holes last Thursday. Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. He made reference to the point that he had appointed Mr I am pleased to bring forward this resolution to the Hon. Williamson, and Mr Williamson has already told me all about Court to continue my Department’s contribution to providing that interview, many years ago! good-quality, affordable housing solutions to the people of the Isle of Man. Mr Lowey: He’s fired! This Scheme increases the Government’s portfolio of properties needed to meet the changing demographics on the The Minister: Finally, the Hon. Member for Malew Island, which illustrate the need to provide for the growing and Santon, Mr Cregeen, too, had a grumble about the late number of single people and couples for whom public-sector rental is often unachievable, as the majority of the stock arrival of the explanatory memorandum. I have taken that on available are family houses. With the support of Tynwald, board. He asked for more time in the future. It was certainly the purchase of this Scheme will provide 12 two-bedroomed unintentional this time, but we will make an endeavour to apartments for public-sector rent, and as this development improve that. He asked for us to circulate mobile phone is a design-and-build Scheme, it also gives employment to overlap costs. Well, I do not know whether that would be those involved in the construction of the units for the next possible or not. I think that is something that we will have year. This is particularly important in the current economic to perhaps consider. climate, where the downturn has impacted significantly on So, all in all, I thank Members for a very positive debate. the building industry. This is a terrific piece of kit. It is an essential service that we Mr President, I beg to move. have got there. The main purpose of this motion is funding to keep it going. I think it is a centre of excellence for our The President: Mr Watterson. Government, a great advertisement for the Isle of Man. I am very proud of it, and the service that it provides. I think it Mr Watterson: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my does save lives, because of the integrated function that we remarks. have there. So with that, I think I will conclude, Eaghtyrane. The President: The motion I put to the Court, Hon. I beg to move. Members, is that printed at Item 9 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have The President: The motion I put to the Court, Hon. it. The ayes have it. Members, is printed at Item 8: That Tynwald approves the Department of Home Affairs incurring expenditure not exceeding £4,240,000 in respect of the implementation of a Communications Development Programme. Those in Tynwald Honours Committee favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The First Report 2008-09 received ayes have it. and recommendation approved

12. The Speaker to move: Proposed Design and Build Contract at ‘The Steadings’, Farmhill That the First Report of the Tynwald Honours Committee Expenditure approved 2008-09 be received, and the following recommendation be approved – 9. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment That Mr Ian Joseph Qualtrough be awarded the Tynwald to move: Honour on 6th July 2009. [PP62/09]

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The President: Now, I think, Hon. Members, we will of the Tynwald Honours Committee for Tynwald Court, take Item 12 at this stage before our break. Item 12. Let us to decide whether the Honour should be bestowed on Mr take some of the other Items. Qualtrough, and I do commend him heartily to the Court. I call Mr Speaker, please. I beg to move, sir.

The Speaker: Mr President, it is with pleasure I rise to A Member: Hear, hear. move the First Report of the Tynwald Honours Committee and move the recommendation that Mr Ian Joseph Qualtrough The President: Chief Minister, Hon. Member for be awarded the Tynwald Honour on 6th July 2009. Castletown. Following the acceptance, Mr President, by this Hon. Court of the Report of the Select Committee on Standing The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Committees of Tynwald in December 2002, Tynwald was It gives me great pleasure to second and support the empowered to confer Honours in its own right. The remit of nomination of Ian Qualtrough – well-known to myself, and I the Tynwald Honours Committee was extended to recommend suspect everybody in this Hon. Court. In fact, many of us will to Tynwald the awarding of such Honours to living Manx be well versed with his considerable commitment to public persons. Your Committee has held four meetings during the life in the Isle of Man, one as a JP for many, many years, and last year, to consider the issue of awarding Honours to living also his operation of a family business and being involved in Manx persons and the Report which is presented before this community events. Those of us who have often been to those Hon. Court reflects results of those deliberations. community events, which have over many decades raised It is not my intention, Mr President, to repeat all the substantial amounts of money for many charities and local Report contains. I am sure Hon. Members will have read organisations, have also witnessed his humour, quick wit and it, but I would like to explain the basic thinking behind the sometimes we have ducked, in case we are part of the ones Report. being quoted! But he is well renowned for his involvement The Tynwald Honour is the highest honour which the Isle in eisteddfods and in mhelliahs and Manx concerts, of which of Man can bestow. It is awarded only to those who have people have enjoyed very much his contribution. But it is made an outstanding contribution over many years to one far broader than that, of course, through the family business or more areas of Manx life. Hon. Members can see the full and everything. criteria for the award in paragraph 2.3 of the Report, and the I think it is worth just recognising that Ian also, during fact that it does not have to be awarded every year. ill-health which he had some years ago, continued to entertain The first award was made in 2007 to Mr Norman and jump around and do all sorts of wonderful things that he Alexander Sayle RI. Mr Sayle was, sadly, too unwell to does, bringing much pleasure to many people. receive the Honour on Tynwald Day 2007, and it was So I believe, as an Island, to actually give him this presented to him at a private ceremony by you, sir, in recognition is something which is very worthy and, as a true September of that year. In 2008, your Committee resolved Manxman, I know he will be very pleased and extremely unanimously to propose to this Hon. Court that Mr Harvey honoured if Tynwald endorses the recommendation here Briggs CP should be awarded the Tynwald Honour. This today, which I am sure they will. I congratulate Ian on being opinion was based upon his extensive contribution to Manx nominated. I fully support that nomination and I know he will life, particularly agriculture and its associated industry, and be extremely proud of being a recipient of such an honour the work of the Young Farmers’ movement. and will look forward to Tynwald Day, receiving that in front This year, 2009, your Committee unanimously felt that of Tynwald Court and many, many people who know him. I Mr Ian Joseph Qualtrough of Castletown would be a most am sure it will be welcomed throughout the Island. worthy recipient of the Tynwald Honour. This opinion is So with that, Mr President, I beg to second. based upon a significant contribution to Manx life, over many years. He managed the family business of J. Qualtrough Two Members: Hear, hear. and Company Limited, a building supply and timber yard, in Castletown, for many years. He has played a full part in The President: Hon. Member, Mr Callister. community life, is a prolific family entertainer at local events and eisteddfods, a Friend of the Gaiety Theatre, a mainstay of Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. Castletown Methodist Church, formerly President of the Isle I also stand to support this motion. My meetings up with of Man Beekeepers’ Federation, along with many sporting Ian Qualtrough have been fairly spasmodic, but mostly in activities as a young man. A lifetime chorister, he is a current connection with radio work. But I would say the first thing member of the Lhon Doo Male Voice Choir, and he sang you notice about him is his wonderful sense of humour, and with Meadowside Choral Society for over 20 years, acting as his amazing collection of anecdotes. Once you start him on chairman and concert compere on many occasions. Members those, he will not stop! Also, we must not forget his ability were circulated, in confidence, with this proposal in February as a businessman and running Qualtrough’s timber yard for 2009, so that they could submit to the Committee in private so many years, so efficiently and in such a friendly way. His any comments they may have, therefore hopefully avoiding popularity, of course, is widespread around the Island, and public discussion on the floor of Tynwald Court. his contributions to local entertainment, as we know and As Hon. Members will note from the Report, we do have been mentioned. recommend that the Tynwald Honour be awarded to Mr I would also refer to his prowess as a beekeeper because, Qualtrough on Tynwald Day by the President in the Chapel about 20 years ago, or thereabouts anyway, it was coming after the captioning ceremony. We believe this to be a suitable up to 1st April and I had a phone call from Ian Qualtrough, and dignified occasion for the award to be made. to suggest an April fool joke for Manx Radio. He said, ‘If It is now necessary, in line with the terms of reference you come down here and have a look at these bees that came

Tynwald Honours Committee – First Report 2008-09 received and recommendation approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 991 T126 to me from the Shetland Islands, you could do an interview attender yourself. He does an excellent job of chairman. It with me about them, and you could put it out on 1st April.’ will be difficult to imagine who could do a better job than So I went down to talk to him about his bees, and in the most himself there. straightforward, straightfaced way you could ever do it, he So, hopefully, this motion will get unanimous approval. did a perfect interview about these fictitious bees that he had It should do – he certainly warrants it. With or without the received from the Shetland Islands, who are fed on seaweed. Tynwald Honour, Ian Qualtrough will be very welcome at (Laughter) They did not need flowers all over the place! The Eisteddfod for many years to come. I congratulate So having done that interview, I took it back, broadcast him on all his formidable skills in everything he has done to it on 1st April: there was some reaction, I think, from contribute to Manx life in the past and for the future. listeners. But the following day, there was a call to the station saying that there had been a tragic incident and all the bees The President: Mr Speaker. which were feeding off the seaweed at the seaside had been overtaken by a huge wave and all of them had been drowned. The Speaker: Mr President, the warmth of the Now, we never knew quite who made that phone call, but I reception to the nomination of Ian Qualtrough speaks for think it was Ian himself, (Laughter) because that is the sort of itself and I would simply add my own congratulations to sense of humour he had! When I asked him at the interview him in anticipation of the Court warmly endorsing this ‘what is the name for the honey that is produced by these recommendation. bees?’, he did not have to… It is the sort of question that I so move. might throw you, but he did not have to think for one second. He said, ‘Oh, it’s the Mollyer Famlach.’ He made that up on The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to the spur of the moment! What it means, nobody knows but the Court, printed at Item 12, is that Mr Ian Joseph Qualtrough him – and he does not, I suppose! be awarded the Tynwald Honour on 6th July 2009. Those But I think he is a person that was always a great pleasure in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The to be with, and I heartily recommend this motion. ayes have it. Hon. Members, I think it is an appropriate time at which The President: Mr Lowey. we made our break. We will resume our deliberations at twenty past five at Item 10. Thank you, Hon. Members. Mr Lowey: This is a rare event, Mr President: a man from Ballasalla getting up to commend a man from Castletown! The Court adjourned at 4.50 p.m. There is no doubt about it: there are Manxmen and there and resumed its sitting at 5.20 p.m. are Manxmen, and there is not the slightest doubt that Ian Qualtrough is the proudest Manxman around. This Honour will make him even prouder still of his homeland, I am sure. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) Limited It is very difficult, Mr President, to be the son of an Debate further adjourned eminent public figure, and Ian Qualtrough’s father, of course, was a former Speaker – a very eminent Speaker – Sir Joseph (Debate adjourned from the February sitting) Qualtrough, in the House of Keys. Ian has not allowed the shadow of his father to impinge on his life. He has created 10. Motion made by Mr Cannan: a life of his own. He is a remarkable man: mention has been made of his role as a magistrate. He served I do not know That Tynwald appoints a Committee of three Members how many years on that bench. Usually magistrates get a with powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant reputation for being harsh and unyielding. Ian Qualtrough to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, was anything but – and there are many, many instances of his as amended, to investigate and report on – kindness to people in trouble where, after the court case, Ian (1) the cause of the collapse of Kaupthing Singer and Qualtrough has helped those particular families and without Friedlander (IOM) Limited; ringing a handbell and drawing attention to it. He has just (2) the role of the Financial Supervision Commission in got on with living a Christian life. ensuring the proper management of Kaupthing Singer It is an immense pleasure for me to support the nomination and Friedlander (IOM) Limited to protect depositors’ of Ian Qualtrough. This Honour will be given to many people funds; in the future: they will not be given to a prouder Manxman (3) the credibility of the Depositors’ Compensation than Ian Qualtrough. I am delighted to support it. Scheme; and (4) any other relevant matter. The President: Hon. Member for Middle. The President: Hon. Members, as I indicated to the Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. Court when we took our break that we would recommence I just wanted to say, in similar vein, what a fantastic at Item 10… nomination this is. As Ian Qualtrough epitomises all that is Item 10 is a debate adjourned from the February sitting. wonderful about himself being an outstanding Manxman, Hon. Members, we are aware from the Questions at Question I just wanted to put on record my appreciation, and in fact Time this morning that, in fact, there seemed to be an on behalf of the constituency of Middle, that when he does agreement reached that the debate could be adjourned yet come to The Braaid Eisteddfod each year, the Island’s premier further again. eisteddfod, as we know, (Laughter) he does an excellent job So, Hon. Members, bearing that in mind, I call upon the – as you well know, Mr President, having been a regular Treasury Minister to move the adjournment, sir.

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The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Thank you, Committee (The Speaker): Mr President, the remit of the Mr President. Standing Committee on Constitutional Matters is to consider Very, very briefly, Mr President, it is simply to repeat what and report on the Council of Ministers policy and approach I said in my statement. We are getting very close now to the to matters of constitutional importance. This motion asks end of the exercise with KSF. The vote is taking place today the Court to receive and note this particular Report, which as to whether the Scheme of Arrangement or liquidation goes makes clear the Committee’s intention to investigate two ahead. It has then to report to the courts next week and, after closely linked matters. Constitutional aspects of reform of that, we will be able to identify a way forward. the Common Travel Area, currently being undertaken by the That is going to engage the staff, though, over the next United Kingdom in consultation with the Republic of Ireland three or four weeks to work to deliver whatever the court’s and the Crown dependencies and, secondly, the Borders, solution is and I would simply say that it is most important Citizenship and Immigration Bill, which is currently before that staff time is spent focused on that, rather than an inquiry the UK Parliament at Westminster. at this stage. Treasury fully support the inquiry route – we The reasons why the Committee has been prompted do think it is important – but give my staff and the key to examine these matters are set out in the Report but, people involved the opportunity to finish off what we are essentially, they centre around the Borders and Immigration doing with KSF at the moment and then have a clean run Bill, and especially the provision in clause 48 of that Bill, at an inquiry. which deals with legal powers in relation to the Common I would simply move now, Mr President that the Travel Area. resolution at Item 10 on the Paper, that the resolution be Mr President, clause 48 was actually removed from the further adjourned until July and I would undertake to Hon. Bill at its report stage in the House of Lords and I will go Members to ensure that that is delivered this time. We will on to say something about the background to that and where be clear, I hope, of most of that work by that time and we the matter proceeds from here, because that legislation was will be able to start afresh at that point. introduced into the Lords and is due now to go into the House So, I would simply ask Hon. Members, please, to support of Commons. the further adjournment, with the undertaking we will come But those concerns within that clause have raised serious back in July with that. questions about the constitutional relationship between the United Kingdom and Isle of Man, both here and in the The President: Hon. Member for Michael. Island and within the Isle of Man Government and by other parliamentarians at Westminster and certainly recently Mr Cannan: I second the move for the adjournment, Mr within the British Irish parliamentary assembly, which met President, and I fully support it. I would say to the Treasury in Donegal. Minister – and I accept his assurance it will be in July – if At this point, Mr President, it is right to acknowledge he seeks to come again in July to another adjournment, I the full actions being taken in this regard within the Isle of will contest. Man Government and I would particularly like to put on record my appreciation for the helpfulness of officers of the The President: Thank you. External Affairs Division, who prepared a briefing paper on this matter, which the Chief Minister has had circulated Mr Cannan: I will contest a further adjournment earlier today – and I do thank them for that particular briefing after… material on a very complex subject. Mr President, the effect of clause 48 of that Bill was – I The President: In that case, Hon. Members, the motion say was, because clause 48 has been struck out – to amend that I put to the Court is that Item 10 be further adjourned to the 1971 UK Immigration Act and thereby remove the Isle the July sitting. Hon. Members, those in favour, please say of Man, along with the Republic of Ireland and the Channel aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Islands, from exemption from control and journeys into the UK. In practice, this would mean that a passenger travelling into the UK from the Isle of Man or any other part of the Common Travel Area could, in theory, be required to produce Standing Committee on Constitutional Matters evidence on their arrival that they were a British or an EEA Reform of Common Travel Area: Borders Citizenship citizen and therefore not subject to immigration control and and Immigration Bill with, in fact, a right to travel within the Common Travel First Report received and contents noted Area. That does raise serious questions about the continuing constitutional links between the various parts of the United 11. The Chairman of the Constitutional Matters Committee Kingdom, the Crown dependencies and the Republic of (Mr Speaker) to move: Ireland. At this point, one might well ask why would the United That the Report of the Constitutional Matters Committee Kingdom wish to do such a thing – seemingly introduce on Constitutional Aspects of Reform of the Common passenger controls within the Common Travel Area? It Travel Area: Borders Citizenship and Immigration Bill would seem, Mr President, that the actual objective of the be received and the contents noted. [PP58/09] UK Government is a strategy called ‘securing the UK border’ and the creation of an e-borders programme involving, for The President: Item 11, the first Report of the Standing example, the collection of biometric and other data in order Committee on Constitutional Matters. to strengthen the external border against drug smuggling, Mr Speaker, please. illegal immigration and terrorism; all perfectly worthy and important and understandable objectives. The Chairman of the Constitutional Matters To do this, therefore, does involve introducing controls at

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UK ports for passengers coming from the Republic of Ireland identified potential problems for minority ethnic groups, by air and sea, with the objective of introducing immigration where such citizenship might not be immediately obvious. controls for non-Common Travel Area nationals by 2014 Therefore, the implications of clause 48 of the Borders, on sea and air borders between the UK and the Republic of Citizenship and Immigration Bill has given rise to wide Ireland and to put in place checks to verify the identities of concern during the passage of the legislation at Westminster British and Irish nationals by that same date. The UK Borders and the constitutional aspects were examined in depth when Agency, in other words, needs new statutory powers to the constitution committee of the House of Lords reported control passengers coming from the Republic of Ireland. on the Bill on 12th March this year, and we referred Hon. To bring any of this about requires a change to the existing Members to that report and document on page 1 of our primary legislation and the importance of clause 48 in that Report. UK Bill was its effect of amending section 13 of the 1971 That Select Committee, that Lords committee, considered Immigration Act, as we set out in our Report, removing the that there were three main issues: (1) whether there had been key words adequate consultation between the UK Government and the governments of the Crown dependencies before the Bill ‘shall not be subject to control under this Act’ was introduced; (2) whether the wide scope of the proposed power to subject travel to and from the Crown dependencies and thereby giving legal power to the UK Borders Agency to control under the Immigration Act 1971 was necessary to bring about such controls on passengers arriving from the in the light of the UK Government’s statement about the Republic of Ireland. proposed limited use of the new power; and (3) whether the But, Mr President, the change to the legislation, in fact, proposed changes in the Common Travel Area would affect does more than that. The legislative change, as proposed in the constitutional relationship between the UK and the Crown clause 48, does not differentiate between travel from that part dependencies. of the Common Travel Area which is actually a foreign state, The report, Mr President, is well worth reading, and not i.e. the Republic of Ireland, and other parts of the Common least for the very detailed and persuasive case made by the Travel Area, which are not foreign states, but constitutionally Chief Minister of the Isle of Man when asked by the select associated with the UK as Crown dependencies, obviously committee for the Isle of Man’s response. That response ourselves and the Channel Islands. does feature prominently in the committee’s thinking, and To quote the words of the Lord Glentoran in the second if I could quote from the response of the Chief Minister, as reading of this Bill in the House of Lords, published in that report.

‘it seems to me that those Crown dependencies are being smashed by ‘The Isle of Man has not been properly consulted. Clause 48 – Clause the same sledgehammer being used to crack the nut of the UK/Ireland 46, as it was then – clause 48 undermines the constitutional relationship border.’ between the Isle of Man and UK, as it takes no account of the historic and present legal, cultural and constitutional ties between us’ Mr President, the difficulty here is that the UK has proposed a legal change to the operation of the Common and a further quote, which says Travel Area which, in terms of policy, it does not actually intend to apply for the Isle of Man. The United Kingdom, ‘the effect of the amendment will be the introduction of a power to indeed, has maintained from the beginning of its review establish permanent border controls between the UK and the Isle of Man of the security of the Common Travel Area, that it has no at any time, whether or not it is intended to use that power.’ intention of establishing fixed controls for Crown dependency traffic entering the UK, but that, instead, there will only be And then the very important statement: risk-based intelligence-led enforcement operations to check ‘History has shown that where a power exists in legislation, sooner or those crossing the land border in Northern Ireland and those later it is almost always used, whatever the policy intention.’ arriving from the Crown dependencies. But to conduct those types of controls – intelligence That perfectly expresses the dilemma for us, Mr led or spot checks on domestic traffic – does also require President, and I think the Chief Minister and his officers are changes to the legislation, otherwise that course of action to be commended for the robust case that was made to the would be ultra vires and the expectation within the Isle committee on the Island’s behalf. of Man Government and elsewhere, when one reads the The select committee report eventually concluded three documentation, was that the type and frequency of controls things in respect of its remit. Firstly, it says: that might be applied would be spelled out in the UK Bill. Instead, clause 48 proposed sweeping general power, which ‘We draw to the attention of the House our view that there does not could – could – be used in the future to establish permanent appear to have been open, effective and meaningful inter-governmental border controls between the UK and Isle of Man at any time, consultations by the UK Government with the insular authorities in advance of the introduction of the Bill. Such consultation as did take instead of only intelligence led controls. place gives the impression of being muddled and tardy. It demonstrated In similar vein, politicians in Ireland have been very little appreciation of the constitutional relationship between the UK and concerned about the implication for travel between the North the Crown dependencies.’ and South where, of course, there is no fixed border. While there might be no actual border to police, even intelligence Their report went on to say: led operation or spot checks, it has been felt, might lead to the creation of a default position of having to carry a passport ‘It is, in our view, difficult to reconcile the modest policy aims stated by the Government of occasionally, on the basis of intelligence, or other form of identity to prove that one was a Common stopping and questioning people arriving from, or departing to, the Travel Area citizen. Crown dependencies with the far-reaching legal powers claimed by the Already, Human Rights groups in Northern Ireland have proposed amendment to section 1 of the Immigration Act 1975, which

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would enable fixed and routine border controls. This mis-match is in it is a very wide Bill, facilitating e-borders, facilitating and of itself constitutionally inappropriate. Parliament should not grant certain citizenship matters and other immigration issues to government wide legal authority in excess of the powers properly needed to implement a proposed policy.’ and is proceeding at Westminster, regardless. It had its third reading in the Lords on 22nd April, has already had And the third important conclusion, Mr President was: its first reading in the Commons – which, in this instance, is serving as a revising chamber – and it is down for its ‘It is clear to us that the policy-making process that has led to clause second reading in the Commons on 2nd June. No doubt, the 48 has not been informed by any real appreciation of the constitutional UK government will either seek to override their defeat in status of the Crown dependencies or the rights of free movement of the Lords by pushing through the original clause 48, with islanders.’ or without an accompanying proposal for a memorandum of understanding with the Isle of Man and other Crown Mr President, it was with that damning indictment in the dependencies, or they may indeed have a replacement clause seventh report of the Constitution Committee of the House which, as recommended by some of the Peers themselves, is of Lords that the UK Government, through its Minister, Lord a replacement clause which is very specific about controls West, steered the Bill from its second reading in February, with the Republic of Ireland on the one hand, and very through its committee stages in March, towards the report specific about the Crown dependencies on the other hand, stage on 25th March. Just before that time a meeting took so that the unfettered right to travel to and from the Isle of place between Lord West, our Chief Secretary and senior Man is preserved and, most important, enshrined in their officers from the Isle of Man, from External Affairs Division, primary law. which in fact is referred to in some detail in the Chief I believe, Mr President, in our Report we reflect that Minister’s 31st March letter to us – which is appendix 2 of and we reflect also that there are associated concerns with our Report – indicating how concerns over clause 48, so well this whole business relating to our involvement with e- expressed by the House of Lords Constitutional Committee borders and the transmission to the UK of travel information would be met and how the status quo of travellers not having about individuals in the Isle of Man. Similarly, the Island’s to produce passports between the Isle of Man and the UK participation will involve the transmission here – which could be assured, despite the legal change being proposed might be useful for intelligence and policing purposes – of to allow it. This was to be done through a memorandum of information about travel into the Isle of Man of individuals. understanding, drawn up and signed between the Isle of Man But those concerns do relate to the extent of the information and the United Kingdom, setting out how the power in clause being requested and the purposes to which it will be put. 48, in practice, would be used in respect of intelligence led Certainly, the creation of an onerous and punitive operations, and how the Isle of Man and UK would co-operate environment for off-Island travel and making the Isle of on security risks – and, again, we were advised of this in the Man seem at least a more inaccessible place to visitors Chief Minister’s letter. is something we would all wish to avoid. I don’t think However, Hon. Members, at the end of the day when anyone has any problem about securing external borders the debate in the House of Lords took place on 1st April the and submitting data regarding travel for that purpose, for UK Government was comprehensively defeated on clause travel beyond them. But travel information in respect of 48 and the memorandum of understanding proposal along travel within these borders, i.e. travel to or from the UK, with it, at least for the time being. Appendix 3 of our Report especially when, I would suggest, the UK has a government sets out extracts from the speeches made within that debate, which plans to store full details of the holidays, companions which encapsulate all the concerns that I have described at and payment details of every citizen for a decade, ought to some length. It is interesting that the chairman of the Lords cause concern, especially, I would say, a government which Constitution Committee, Lord Goodlad – the committee has proved so careless with the handling of data. (Several which was so critical of clause 48 – had this to say about the Members: Hear, hear.) proposed memorandum of understanding, which the Isle of It is therefore appropriate for a committee of Tynwald to Man Government had agreed to as a safeguard and insurance examine these matters and to do so, while Government – the policy. He commented: Isle of Man Government – in parallel will also wish to react to ‘Parliament does not like memoranda of understanding which can be the more immediate issues from the passage of the legislation ignored or repudiated by governments, present or future, at any time of through the Commons. I believe, and the Committee believes, their choosing and in the present case will not have been subject to any it is important we have a parliamentary process at work here parliamentary scrutiny of any sort whatever. It must surely be right for as well as a governmental one. In practical terms, I cannot the government to come forward with amendments in place of clause say if we, as a Committee, will be in a position to report back 48 to give effect to its policies with parliamentary approval.’ to this Hon. Court at a stage when there is still time for the Briefly, furthermore, Lord Pannick said: Isle of Man Government to take on board any settled view of Tynwald Members as it seeks to ensure that the legislation ‘I ask the Minister to give the House an assurance that he will instruct which emanates from the UK parliamentary process is in the parliamentary draughtsmen now to produce a new version of clause 48 Isle of Man’s best interests. that more specifically reflects his own entirely valid policy intentions Therefore, as we say in our Report, the Committee’s aim to enable border controls to act on intelligence which identifies a is to ensure proper parliamentary discussion in the Isle of security risk to a particular arrival or a particular passenger. If the Minister declines to give that assurance, I hope the House will reject Man before any final decision is made at Westminster about this clause.’ the contents and progress of the legislation. But we think we must recognize that that largely depends on a Westminster In fact, as I say, the clause was rejected. timetable, which is actually beyond our control. Nevertheless, So, Mr President, what happens to that Immigration, Mr President, and finally, we have set out in paragraph 11 of Borders and Citizenship Bill now? We must remember our Report a number of issues, some historic, but some still

Standing Committee on Constitutional Matters – Reform of Common Travel Area: Borders Citizenship and Immigration Bill – First Report received and contents noted Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 995 T126 current, which will perhaps clarify what our policy should travel to the United Kingdom without a check, then should be looking to in the future. we not be arguing that the Isle of Man is a British territory I do want to emphasise, Mr President, it is not the wish of and therefore is somewhat different from the Irish Republic? the Committee to cut across, or in any way hinder, the work Notwithstanding that there has been a Common Travel Area, that Government itself has been doing and, in my view, has if they are seeking to make that change, is not our status been doing very effectively in making its case to the UK rather different? authorities, but I do believe it is appropriate that there should I am not arguing whether that is right or wrong, but I do be a parliamentary investigation of the issue to assist the Isle think it is something that we should be considering. Against of Man as a whole in a matter which is of importance to the that, though, I have a concern that, if indeed they introduce future and, let’s face it, impacts potentially in future on the the checks for those travelling from the Republic of Ireland, ability of us to continue to enjoy free travel to the United we would have to have a jolly good check between the Kingdom – to all parts of United Kingdom – and the Republic Republic of Ireland and the Isle of Man, in terms of travel, of Ireland, and vice versa. to control immigration through that route. So it is not entirely I beg to move, sir straightforward, but I do think that there is useful work for the Committee to continue to do here. The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member. The points set out in the Report include the issue of data protection and I rather think that if there are two issues here, Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and and one is e-borders and the other is immigration controls, reserve my remarks. there may be an overlap there. If we are going down the e-borders route then they are going to be collecting data The President: Mrs Christian. on passengers travelling backwards and forwards. But it is correct to say that the default position in all of this would Mrs Christian: Mr President, I think the Report raises imply that, to prove we are Manx citizens or British citizens, some very interesting questions. we would have to carry identification in the event that The Hon. Mr Speaker has outlined the consultation they applied the law as they are proposing to introduce it. processes that have gone on in presenting the Report and Otherwise, how do you get through the checkpoint? I would one might question whether or not there has been enough express the view that we do need to give further consideration consultation on this issue. I suppose my main concern is to why the United Kingdom cannot specifically word its whether or not the amendments in the United Kingdom legislation to cover the issues of intelligence-led checks at actually fit with what they say they are going to do borders, not just blanket checks at borders, because that is what they say they want to do. Why cannot they draft their – and it clearly does not or they would not be requiring a legislation to meet that statement? memorandum of understanding. The point about powers of detention over those travelling In my view, and like that view expressed in the House of between the Isle of Man and the UK: again, I suppose that Lords, there may be a place for memoranda of understanding depends on how the legislation is framed. Certainly, we would in certain circumstances but I am not quite comfortable not wish, I am sure, to see a lot of bureaucracy for travellers with the fact that, in this circumstance, we are seeking to between the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom who are have a memorandum of understanding which is not in line just innocently going about their travel and do not pose any with what the statute is going to say. I can only think of one security threats and so on. memorandum of understanding at the moment that we have So I do think that there has not been a very strong case had mentioned in this Hon. Court and that was one between really made, unless the members of the Lords have not the Island and Norway on cultural issues of some kind and understood the Hon. Lord who was moving the Bill. He that might be a fitting thing to do in those circumstances. has implied that some of the UK Lords are wrong in their But I would have concerns about a memorandum which interpretation. He states that the proposal simply enables the has no strength in statutory provision and could clearly be United Kingdom to control non-British citizens, but how can overturned by a change of government in that other country, they do that without checking whether you are a non-British leaving us then with potential, if the amendment actually is citizen? Therefore, you have got to carry your passport with successful in the House of Commons, for a check to be placed you, or they have got to have data on you. between the Isle of Man – indeed the whole of the Common I really think that work should be done by them and we Travel Area – and the United Kingdom for everyone going should resist the amendment that is proposed in the United between those places. Kingdom, unless they can clarify in some way why it is I think one of the things we want to consider is that, if absolutely essential to include us with the Irish Republic the United Kingdom intends only to apply controls based in these proposals, and indeed I have concerns about a on intelligence, is there not some other legislation – and memorandum of understanding in these circumstances. Mr Speaker has indicated this is for security reasons – there surely is some other legislation to do with the security of the The President: Mr Callister. country, which would enable the United Kingdom to take action against individuals, whether they are travelling or Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. whether they happen to be in the United Kingdom. It seems I think most people outside this Court would be horrified to me that the legislation is all embracing and does not focus to think that we were going to come under some kind of as finally as it might do, that what the UK are saying is not border-control system whereby passports have to be carried, what they are going to do. identifications have to be given, possibly information (A The second issue is if, in fact, the United Kingdom are Member: Hear, hear.) fed into your computer in advance mindful to make this change and introduce a requirement of your… all kinds of details that should not be given to the which takes out the rights of Isle of Man and Irish people to UK. I think people would be horrified.

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I think also that free travel between the Isle of Man Quite clearly, our view is that having such legislation in and the UK and vice versa has always existed in the Isle of UK law is inappropriate and, in fact, affects our constitutional Man. There is no requirement at present to carry a passport relationship. Clearly, it is straightforward with Southern to go to the United Kingdom. We can remember back to Ireland because that is not part of the United Kingdom. We the wonderful days when the European Union was going to are not part of United Kingdom but, constitutionally, because be free of all passports and we would all go anywhere we we are a Crown dependency, we have a unique link with the wanted to without them, but now it is closing in on the Isle Crown and that has always been recognised. of Man and it is not acceptable. To have a memorandum of So I want to make it absolutely clear: our starting point understanding, a slender thread hanging on to, is simply not is we do not support what the UK is doing on this matter. acceptable for the people of the Island. It could very well just In doing that – we can stand up and just say we do not want fall apart within a year or two of accepting the agreement to it – the reality is that when it was in the Bill and when it have that. I am surprised that this is seen to be some way of was going before the Lords, we had to try and find at least making it all right for the Island. It is just not acceptable. something, if in fact that clause was successful, and the As I understand it – and I may be wrong – when this something was that, if the clause comes in, we have to have was being moved by Mr Speaker, the Bill which has gone a clear understanding between the two Governments that, if back from the Lords to the Commons… clause 48 had been that clause, which is an enabling clause only… It is not then removed at that stage, so at this stage clause 48 is not there. automatically brought in, as I understand it, it is enabling. There is always the possibility it will be returned during We then at least had an understanding between the two debate, during their clauses; however, we now need to use countries, which is not unusual, to allow free movement of all the powers we have with friends in the Commons, and people between the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom. any other means, to ensure that whatever is in clause 48, if We need that because if the UK, who can still come back it gets back, gives us free travel without passports in exactly on this, and quite clearly may well do, and in fact we know the way we travel now. We know the airlines require IDs they are going to… If the UK come back on this because it – that is a different matter, you are not required to produce a has been rejected in the House of Lords… passport for that – but I think that it really needs very strong But this Bill was introduced into the House of Lords. It argument from the Isle of Man to protect our case. did not go in the Commons first; it went in the Lords and it In reference to the Hon. Member, Mrs Christian, we was rejected by the Lords. However, we do know that the certainly are different from the Republic of Ireland and that United Kingdom Government – in fact, the Home Secretary is an area that we would have to deal with. After all, they are – has agreed to table an amendment to reintroduce the in the European Union and we are not. original clause, now to a clause 54, which will put back in What is happening at the moment, of course, is that we do the provision that has now been rejected. not know where this is going to go, as far as the Isle of Man is If you want us to bury our head in the sand, that is concerned, but the Isle of Man has a case, in my opinion, for one thing. I am certainly not going to do that, because our the status quo to remain, and I do hope that the Chief Minister stance is quite clear: we think it is an inappropriate piece and the Council of Ministers – and anyone, in fact, who has of legislation, it is not required for the Isle of Man and, in contacts that can assist to keep the Isle of Man in its present fact, does not recognise our relationship with the United state and relationship with the UK – should be able to do so. Kingdom. However, if the United Kingdom Parliament Should we then get to the stage where clause 48 is returned passes that and it becomes law, we have to safeguard, then, without even perhaps a memorandum of agreement, we will the interests of the people of the Isle of Man in some other be into a constitutional crisis. If that is the case, so be it! way, and the only other way, whether we like it or not, is by having a memorandum of understanding which says x, y and The President: Chief Minister. z – in other words, keeps the status quo we have today. If a UK Government in the future decides to enact that piece of The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. legislation into law that directly affects the Isle of Man, we I am happy to support the motion on the Order Paper, would then argue the case that there has been an agreement which only receives the Report and notes its contents, which between the two parties. explain the situation we have. If we could say the UK cannot pass that law, that would I just want to respond to a couple of points that have be fine, but the reality is we cannot and the reality is they been made by the last couple of Members, who I think are looking at different circumstances than we are, but we have misunderstood what has been going on. In fact, it is believe quite firmly that the United Kingdom Government clearly set out in the Report and in the appendix, and also has, in this instance, got it wrong, because we are part of a the information I circulated earlier today. common travel area and that relationship has been there… I want to start by saying that the Isle of Man Government well, however long, a long, long time. So we are trying to is absolutely clear on this: we have robustly defended our make sure that is separated out, Mr President, and I just position to say we do not support at all clause 48. So our want to give that assurance not only to Tynwald Court but stance is very clear: we do not support clause 48. But it has to clearly, importantly, to the people we all represent. So we be recognised it is not in our gift whether or not it gets into UK will continue to do what we can, but we do have to put an law; that is in the gift of the United Kingdom Parliament. We alternative if, in fact, it becomes law – in other words, it goes are here, the smaller component, and the UK is saying, ‘We into the legislation. want to introduce this.’ There have been ongoing discussions Again, importantly, in terms of consultation, the Isle for two years over this issue about the Common Travel Area. of Man Government and its officials have been in regular We have continually and robustly defended our position. We discussions for many years, and over the past two years have have made it very clear why the Isle of Man should not be been in regular consultation regarding UK proposals for the subject to such controls. Common Travel Area, and it is very important we separate

Standing Committee on Constitutional Matters – Reform of Common Travel Area: Borders Citizenship and Immigration Bill – First Report received and contents noted Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 997 T126 out e-borders and the Common Travel Area. They are two could lead to becoming not worth the paper it is written on, distinctly different issues, and this is about the Common is better than having no provision at all. Travel Area that we need to be clear on. One thing I would be curious to know is, with regard of Mr President, we will certainly continue to get to a stage if this was to go through, where it states that a passenger where we are… We will certainly do what we can, and travelling from the Isle of Man could be required to give have been, with contacts. That is why we were speaking to evidence on their arrival: well, quite often when you land at members of the Lords when the Bill was before the Lords. a port and you present your passport, it is up to that officer, They are clear on our position on this, but there was a strong whether they are going to detain you or hold you. I am just effort from the UK Government to have this clause in and wondering, for example, if I was to arrive in Heysham and we then said we oppose it, but if it is likely to go through we show my passport, I have provided that evidence. Therefore, must have an alternative. We must have a way to go forward, there should not be any requirement to hold me up any longer otherwise we would have nothing, and now was the time to and I just wonder whether that would be the case, whether do that. So whatever happens… If the clause fails and does it simply would be an exercise where you were to prove it not become part of the law, that is the best news we could and then go about your business or whether there would be have. However, if it is passed and put into the law, which any additional powers for these officers to become a bit of a can then be enacted, at least we would have an agreement nuisance and hold people up and so forth. to have a memorandum of understanding which will keep I think Mr Speaker’s point is very valid that once powers the status quo in terms of free travel movement, without the go into legislation it is only a matter of time before those need for passports or whatever. powers are enacted: somebody spots the opportunity to create At the moment, we are doing the best we can. We are in a department for themselves and empire build and seizes that regular contact over this. We are now waiting. We understand opportunity, whether it is required, and it is a very difficult that the issue is going to be before the House of Commons for job to reign those people in once the power is in the primary Second Reading on 2nd June, so we hope that the amendment legislation and, no doubt, when making the argument about will be defeated on 2nd or 3rd June, and if it is then that will why those powers should be used, activated, there will be be good news for the Isle of Man. all the reasons why it is essential that the powers are now Mr President, I think the issue is quite straightforward brought into force and so forth. But I am certainly satisfied from where we stand. It does create some uncertainty. I that the Chief Minister and the team in the External Relations think it is also an issue where, whether we like it or not, we Division will be doing all they can. already have controls at the airport and at the ports, in terms The subject of e-borders came up in Mr Speaker’s opening of people moving backwards and forwards, and we have a address and that is a subject that is quite interesting because contradiction. I would remind Hon. Members, if you look the question of where the Isle of Man will sit no doubt is yet back on your manifestoes, those in the Keys who stood at to be decided if the whole e-borders system comes in, but one the last General Election, I think most Members mentioned thing I would say is that if the Isle of Man remains inside the there was a need for proper control at our ports for people United Kingdom’s border, then there should be no reason for coming in, interestingly, because we see that as a danger the Isle of Man to be giving the United Kingdom information to us, but we do not want it going out! Well, of course, life of who is leaving here because we are inside that border. If is not like that: you know, if there is free movement for us the case comes up where we have to provide information going that way, i.e. to the UK, there has to be free movement prior to travel, then clearly we have our own border, and that coming to the Isle of Man and we have to police that and to me spells a whole new level of bureaucracy – goodness deal with the consequences of that if, in fact, that is in the knows what expense that is going to cost just to set up – and best interests of the people of the Isle of Man, in terms of certainly that is something that I would not be in favour of, freedom of movement. having a whole new layer of bureaucracy for people leaving So we are realistic about this: Mr Speaker’s Committee the Isle of Man. has clearly identified what has gone on and has made it very I think the Chief Minister is quite right: we cannot have clear – which I thank him for – that, in fact, Government our cake and eat it and set up border control here on the way has been actively trying to deal with this to protect the Isle in and then not have it on the way out. Realistically, that of Man’s position. Therefore the Committee looking at this, could not happen. I think if we have it on the way in, it is looking as well and giving a view from a parliamentary point almost certain that we are going to have it on the way out, of view in the Isle of Man, and the Government’s stance, will and the current situation of being able to travel freely is one be, I believe, helpful for all of us. There is still quite a lot we should retain. to do on this and we will continue to hope and support any There is a big difference between security and restrictive clause that introduces this provision to be rejected in the UK practices, and I think that is something that we have to look Parliament but, of course, that is not in our gift and we have at. For those who travel to the United States, you know they to be realistic about it. have already introduced the new electronic authorisation Thank you, Mr President. where you have to go online – and it is a simple process, but nevertheless you have to go online – before you travel. The President: Mr Turner, Hon. Member. They give you authorisation, and if you have not got that authorisation you cannot leave your country of departure. I Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. suppose that cuts out the problem of people arriving and then The Chief Minister is quite right. It is not within our gift, they have to process you and put you somewhere, whether but I am sure, given the assurances he has just given the Court it is in a cell or whatever. You are not actually going to today, they are doing everything they can to fight to retain become their problem, because they can refuse you before the status quo in the movement. I fully understand the point you set off. that the memorandum of understanding, whilst it possibly I do think we are in a situation that is outside our control

Standing Committee on Constitutional Matters – Reform of Common Travel Area: Borders Citizenship and Immigration Bill – First Report received and contents noted 998 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day and I think the best we can do is lobby hard to those we know of being some sort of a second-class citizen. They did the in Westminster to support our case for retaining the system same with places like Tristan da Cunha. They did the same, whereby people can get on to the ferries and the aircraft and for a period, with the Falkland Islands and some of the other travel to the United Kingdom without having to go through islands off Ascension and places like that. All these people a passport control. have had to win the right to come into Britain or to be British I take on board the points about Southern Ireland. That citizens. You can no longer, I understand, be a British citizen is a different case, and if Southern Ireland remains outside in Hong Kong any more; they have changed all that. They the United Kingdom’s free movement system, if this goes are gradually whittling away the system. through, then obviously that is something we will have to I would say, from the Chief Minister’s point of view, more deal with at our own ports of entry – at the airport for flights power to his elbow. Let’s have somebody from the Isle of coming in from Southern Ireland, and for the ferries, as Man trying to fight our corner, because I would think it would well. be a tragedy for us to have to go through the rigmarole of Those are the points I would like to make and I am producing passport or identity documents. At the end of the certainly reassured that the Chief Minister and his team are day, if the person on the other end does not like the cut of doing all they can to retain the status quo in the movement your jib or the look of your face, he might say, ‘Sorry, I’m of passengers. not giving you entry: go back.’ So I think it is very important and it is one that we have got to stand together and fight very The President: Hon. Member, Mr Downie. firmly on.

Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. Several Members: Hear, hear. Could I, first of all, start by congratulating the Committee and the Working Group – there has been a tremendous The President: Mr Attorney. amount of work carried out here – and I think credit should go to the Chief Minister and his staff for trying to resolve The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. this problem. Very briefly, and in support of the Chief Minister’s speech, I think what we are caught up in here, Hon. Members… I was part of the Isle of Man delegation and we attended upon Some of you who are not quite so old and have studied the Lord West in the House of Lords, together with colleagues politics of other countries… In 1921, there was an area from Jersey and Guernsey. declared in Ireland called the Free State, and it was at that Mr President, it was quite clear that Lord West realised time that there were so many Irish people in Britain serving that there had been very insufficient consultation indeed and in the Forces they decided then they were going to have this apologies were given to us. But it was made also clear, Mr free travel area, or this Common Travel Area, so that people President, that the main issue was in relation to travel from could move around, labour could move from one area to Ireland and that the Crown dependencies were never intended the other without any let or hindrance. No problems at all, to be caught up with the problem which had been identified except in wartime when there were identity cards issued for the population both in the British islands and in Ireland as in relation to travellers from Ireland. well. Moving on 50, 60 or 70 years, what has effectively The Hon. Member, Mrs Christian, of course says if that happened is Ireland has really developed an identity and a is the case, was it not possible to prepare legislation which culture all of its own. Ireland is not a quiet backwater like it would deal with the security-intelligence-led issues, and used to be. You have people living in Ireland from Eritrea, that was something that was put by us to Lord West by Somalia, the Yemen, Ethiopia, and a lot of those people, in way of query, and the officers who were there, advising fairness, would not get entry into the UK without having to Lord West, said, rightly or wrongly, that the issues were go through some very severe tests now. so complex that they could not actually draft legislation I think, because we are part of this Common Travel which would deal with all the manifest problems which are Area… My own view in this is that, unless there is a border concerned with intelligence-led problems. Therefore, Mr established somewhere between ourselves and Ireland… At President, it was in expectation that the legislation would go the present time, people travel from Ireland to the Isle of through as originally drafted that our Island suggested that a Man. Who knows where they go when they get here? I think memorandum of understanding would be appropriate by way that is part of the problem, and I think if we were prepared to of a compromise, and that was fully supported by Guernsey say to the UK we will establish a border here and we will vet and Jersey at the time, although Jersey subsequently changed people coming from Ireland, we would have a much better their view on that. chance of being adopted into part of the UK borders. As a Could I also say, Mr President, that there are occasions person who is British… I am a Manxman and I am proud to when an MoU can be used and perhaps a good recent example be a Manxman, but at the end of the day I am a British subject is in relation to the operation of our aerodrome, Ronaldsway and a British citizen. I have a British passport. I have a right Airport. Of course, the Isle of Man is caught by international of unencumbered entry and a right to work anywhere in the convention in relation to the operation of aerodromes and a British Isles, and I think what is being proposed by the UK memorandum of understanding has recently been put in place is an affront to me (A Member: Hear, hear.) and thousands between the Island and the United Kingdom, governing the of people like me and thousands of people who served in use of the aerodrome, to ensure that the Island complies with the British Forces. best international practice and international convention. So it I think what you see now – and the same applies, to some is not just perhaps in the cultural area that MoUs are useful, extent, with the reciprocal health agreement and all the other albeit I fully understand the drawbacks with them: they can things – is there are people in the UK Government who are be used to supplement legislation and to give legislation the trying to isolate us and they are trying to give us the status flavour that was intended by the passers.

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The President: Mr Butt, Hon. Member. the issues and some of the competing forces that are at work here. Mr Butt: Thank you, sir. I think it was quite helpful for Mr Downie, the Hon. I would also like to thank the Speaker for an excellent Member of Council, actually to recount the history of the Report – and lots of work has obviously been done – and Common Travel Area back to the 1920s, because actually the Chief Minister in his clarification and, to a certain extent it is the UK and Irish external border and the issues to do the Attorney General. Having read the Report, and having with illegal immigration, terrorism, smuggling and so on heard Mrs Christian’s comments, it would seem to me that into that border and then, in turn, throughout the Common the memorandum of understanding would only be used as a Travel Area, that is the common issue between those two last resort. It seems to be a very flaky piece of paper to have countries. The Republic of Ireland certainly are as concerned to safeguard our important constitutional position with the as the UK about the security of their border and the issue rest of the British Isles and the United Kingdom. of illegal immigration. It was put this way, actually, at the Let me just turn to the actual Report, appendix 3, and British Irish Assembly by the Irish Minister who was there what Lord Pannick says. Lord Pannick, if you turn over to when she said: the second page of his comment: first of all, it is obvious that there has been no consultation – none at all, probably. It does ‘In Ireland we know how many cows we have, but we don’t know how seem as if this whole legislation is being done quite quickly many people live here!’ and, perhaps, to a certain extent, is quite shoddy, compared to what it should be. But he says, at the top of that second That was quite a telling statement, so they are as concerned page of his comment, as the UK to ensure security of that border and to use the e-borders programme and the modern technology to bring ‘The Minister’, that about. But, of course, there are the knock-on effects, and I – which I think means Lord West of Spithead – think they have been well covered by the contributions of Members, the unintentional effects that, in order to have UK ‘then suggested, in answer to questions from Your Lordships’ and Ireland identity checks between those two countries, that Constitution Committee, that it would not be possible to differentiate in requires a change in the law, and the unintended consequence the Bill between the provision made in relation to Jersey, Guernsey and of changing that law in the way they are proposing is to have the Isle of Man and the provision made in relation to the Republic of Ireland, where ministers see a need for far more extensive powers –’ the potential – which is not what they want to do in terms of policy, but to have the legal potential – to introduce controls which the Attorney has said. And he goes on, Lord to the Isle of Man. Pannick: I think, as the Chief Minister has made clear, that is not a position that the Isle of Man Government wants to ‘I do not understand why the drafting of clause 48 cannot differentiate see happen, which is why clause 48 has been consistently in that respect. There are significant distinctions. Ministers regard the resisted. It is why, as the Attorney kindly has informed us, concerns in relation to travel to the Republic of Ireland as far more a position was reached of a memorandum of understanding extensive than in relation to Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. Of course, our relationship with the Island is very different to our to ensure that what they want to do, which is not, as Mrs relationship with the Republic of Ireland, which is a foreign state.’ Christian said, in line with what the statute says, but at least there was some safeguard there, however slender a Now, Lord West, in his response to that, in effect says thread – to use Mr Callister’s words – that memorandum that ‘to try to differentiate in terms of intelligence-led border of understanding might represent. But if we are unable, the policing in the legislation would, in effect, destroy the Isle of Man, to influence the legislation, when it is in the Common Travel Area.’ Commons, either to continue to leave out clause 48, or better, That, I think, is the jist of what he says. Now, again, I recast clause 48 in a way which does differentiate, as Mr Butt heard the Attorney say that they have made representations correctly alluded to, the different legal positions and status on that, so when the new clause comes through – the new of the Republic of Ireland and the Crown dependencies, then clause 48, or clause 54, I think it is now – will we have it might be a memorandum of understanding of good intent sight of what that is before it gets discussed in the House of that we are left with, but that is very much a second-best, Commons? Will we have any chance to input into that clause: and I think the Court appreciates that. I do not see how it is beyond the wit of the legislators in the What we certainly want to avoid in all this, whatever UK to differentiate between us and Guernsey and Jersey and the outcome at the end of the day, is that, for internal travel Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, in terms of purposes – by which I mean from here to the United Kingdom the less serious issues which they are looking at, and I just and vice versa – there is a clarity about that travel that we wonder, when the Attorney goes back and the Chief Minister, do not want to be put, as Members have referred to, into will we get access to that new clause beforehand? Can we the default position of feeling obliged to carry a passport in influence it? It surely is not beyond the wit of legislators order to prove one’s identity. Travel from here to Heysham to differentiate to do what we need to do, because our should be no more of an issue than getting on a train from constitutional position is in great danger here. London to Yorkshire. We are not a Soviet state – at least the UK is not yet a Soviet state. We do not want to be part of any The President: Mr Speaker to reply. creeping Soviet-style checking of documents. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I am sorry to report… I do not know how widely known I would certainly like to thank Hon. Members who have it is, but I understand that, as recently as last December, it spoken. From their comments, they have clearly understood was reported within the Filipino Association of the Isle of

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Man that the port authorities at Birkenhead had been asking your Order Paper and I call on the Minister for the Treasury, ferry passengers from the Isle of Man to produce passports. Mr Bell, to move, please. When that happened, it must have been apparent that the requirement for travel documentation, to put it mildly, had The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, become somewhat unclear in respect of travel on the Irish the purpose of this Order is to apply in Island law increases Sea amongst the port authorities in the UK, and one can well in excise duty rates analogous with those announced by the understand that the fairly unpleasant experience of being Chancellor in his pre-Budget Report on 24th November asked for evidence of your identity, while being uncertain 2008. as to what documentation, if any, you are legally required I beg to move. to produce should be allowed to happen at all. I think it is a very unfortunate sign of the times and the way we appear The President: Mr Braidwood. to be heading. I am fairly sure all of us, as a matter of course, now carry a Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and passport when leaving Ronaldsway, even to the UK, because reserve my remarks. it is a convenient form of identification for travel purposes. But, equally, if that becomes a default position, where you The President: The motion I put to the Court is that feel you cannot travel safely without a passport or other photo printed at Item 13. Those in favour, please say aye; against, identification, then we have entered a new world. no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. There is a lack of clarity also – and it is alluded to in our Report and it is a matter we want to explore further – is the degree of information that should be produced. Should it go beyond a simple who you are and where you intend to travel? Value Added Tax Act 1996 Should it have details of your onward destination and credit Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) card details? When you look at the House of Lords debates, (No. 4) Order 2009 approved those concerns were very much to the fore and in the borders strategy as well, so we shall certainly look at that. 14. The Minister for the Treasury to move: Mr President, I am grateful for Members’ contributions and I am grateful to the Chief Minister for his assurance That the Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) (No. 4) that strong representations will continue to be made, and Order 2009 be approved [SD No 250/09] they will have to be made very strongly and very quickly if we are to muster on our behalf the sort of support that was The President: Item 14. Minister for the Treasury. apparent in the House of Lords amongst opposition parties against clause 48, which caused it to be defeated. I suggest The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, we will have to lobby very strongly our friends in the UK this Order makes various amendments to the Value Added Manx Group, opposition politicians and, indeed, government Tax Act 1996 to insert reference to schedule 24 to the Finance party members who may be well known to us and capable Act 2007. Schedule 24 contains details of penalties, their of being influenced to ensure at least that we do not have a levels and mitigation factors, that from April 2009 will apply piece of legislation in place that treats the Isle of Man as if to the broad range of indirect taxes, starting with VAT and it was a foreign country and obliges, at least in theory, in the to be extended in due course to the other taxes and duties. future, our citizens to feel that they have to carry personal The new system includes the ability to suspend penalties identity papers for travel. which would then not be enforced so long as the business I beg to move. did not become liable to any other error penalties during the suspension period. The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put I beg to move. to the Court is printed at Item 11 on your Order Paper, that the Report of the Constitutional Matters Committee on The President: Mr Braidwood. Constitutional Aspects of Reform of the Common Travel Area: Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill be received Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President. and the contents noted. Those in favour, Hon. Members, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have The President: Again, Hon. Members, the motion I put it. to you is printed at Item 14. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 Excise Duties Order 2009 approved Customs and Excise Act 1993 Export of Radioactive Sources (Control) (Amendment) 13. The Minister for the Treasury to move: Order 2009 (Application) Order 2009 approved

That the Excise Duties Order 2009 be approved [SD No 15. The Minister for the Treasury to move: 261/09] That the Export of Radioactive Sources (Control) The President: Hon. Members, we dealt with Item 12 (Amendment) Order 2009 (Application) Order 2009 be before we took our tea break and so we come to Item 13 on approved [SD No 253/09]

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The President: Item 15. Minister for the Treasury. Members of Tynwald (Resettlement Grant) Scheme 2009 approved The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, the purpose of this Order is to apply in Island law the Export 17. The Minister for the Treasury to move: of Radioactive Sources (Control) (Amendment) Order 2009. The applied Order makes amendments to an earlier applied That the Members of Tynwald (Resettlement Grant) Order, the Export of Radioactive Sources (Control) Order Scheme 2009 be approved [GC No 014/09] 2006. The principal change is to bring licensing decisions and appeals procedures into line with those contained in The President: Item 17. Minister for the Treasury, the Export Control Order 2008, which is also applied in the please. Island. I beg to move. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, the Members of Tynwald (Resettlement Grant) Scheme The President: Mr Braidwood. 2007, which was approved by this Hon. Court in January 2008, provides for a grant payment if a Member who is Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and under pensionable age stands for re-election to the Keys reserve my remarks. or to Council and is unsuccessful in that endeavour. This payment is equivalent to one half of the annual sum payable The President: Again, Hon. Members, I put to you the to a Member who does not hold any office and is not a motion printed at Item 15. Those in favour, please say aye; Member of any Department. The Scheme also includes a against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. clawback provision should that Member be elected within the following six months, such as through a by-election, or attain pensionable age during the following six months. The First Report of the Joint Committee on the Customs and Excise Act 1993 Emoluments of Certain Public Servants for the Session of Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) 2007-08 was considered by the Keys and Council in May (No. 2) Order 2009 approved 2008. The Report considered, among other things, the circumstances where a Member of Tynwald may qualify for 16. The Minister for the Treasury to move: a resettlement grant, having been a Member for a very short time. The Report concluded that a qualifying period of two That the Customs and Excise Acts (Application) years should be introduced. The 2009 Scheme presented (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009 be approved [SD No to this Hon. Court today retains the provisions of the 2007 251/09] Scheme and introduces a qualifying period of two years as a Member of Tynwald in accordance with the conclusions The President: Item 16. Mr Bell, please. of the Emoluments Committee. I beg to move. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, the purpose of this Order is to bring into operation the non- The President: Mr Braidwood. VAT provisions of schedule 24 to the Finance Act 2007, as amended. Schedule 24 to the Finance Act 2007 and schedule Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and 41 to the Finance Act 2008 together introduce a common reserve my remarks. framework of penalties for breaches of VAT and non-VAT indirect taxes and duties. This Order clarifies the dates upon The President: Mr Callister. which schedule 24 takes effect, this being 1st April 2009 in relation to VAT, and later to various other indirect taxes and Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. duties administered by the Customs and Excise division, I would only like to point out, as this is being moved, that including customs duties, excise duties and air passenger it will not affect me, as I am quite sure a number of Members duties. will recognise. What I will say, though, is that the collective As well as providing a common structure for gauging and age of the Members of the Legislative Council runs to 511 imposing penalties, there will also be a common mitigation years – half a century of wisdom. (Interjections) factor and the ability to suspend penalties so as to encourage improved compliance by business. The President: Half a millennium! I beg to move. Mr Callister: Half a millennium, indeed, yes. Very well The President: Mr Braidwood. spotted. If we added, of course, the wisdom of our President to that, it would run to 582 years. (Two Members: Ooh!) Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and (Interjection) The average age of the Members at the moment reserve my remarks. is 64; we are being let down, of course, by the junior Member opposite to me. I simply want to say that one or two of us The President: The motion, Hon. Members, printed at may be, perhaps, a decade away from caducity, (Interjection) Item 16, is that the Customs and Excise Acts (Application) – ‘pre-senile senility’ is the interpretation – so I only really (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009 be approved. Those in stand here to say to the Treasury Minister there will be very favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The little call, if any, on the Treasury funds for this for the next ayes have it. four years or so. (Laughter)

Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Export of Radioactive Sources (Control) (Amendment) Order 2009 (Application) Order 2009 approved Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009 approved Members of Tynwald – (Resettlement Grant) Scheme 2009 approved 1002 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day

The President: I was beginning to wonder why you were Mr President, from a practical conveyancing perspective, standing. (Laughter) the main benefits can be summarised as follows: easier Would you like to reply, Minister? preparation of documents after first registration; bulky abstracts of title are replaced by a single office copy of The Minister: I just thank the Hon. Member for his title that has a map attached; searching, once the system is reassurance. (Laughter) online, will be easy and quick; the title to registered land is guaranteed; and, as already indicated, compensation may be The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put claimed for errors and omissions in the Register. to the Court is that printed at Item 17 on the Order Paper. The introduction of compulsory registration will have no Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have impact on associated fees collected by the General Registry it. The ayes have it. under the Deeds and Probate Registries (Fees) Order 2008 and the Land Registry (Fees) Order 2008. To conclude, Mr President, the principal objectives of the land registration system are to simplify, cheapen and Land Registration Act 1982 expedite dealings with land. The system ensures certainty Land Registration (Designation of Compulsory Area) of title supported by a Government guarantee and means Order 2009 approved that, once a title has been registered, it should make future transfers of registered title quicker and easier. 18. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment Mr President, additional background information has to move: already been circulated to Members. I beg to move. That the Land Registration (Designation of Compulsory Area) Order 2009 be approved [SD No 195/09] Mr Downie: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks. The President: Item 18. This time I call on the Minister for Local Government and the Environment, Mr Shimmin, The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. to move, please. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister for Local Government and the Could I just ask the Minister a couple of issues. Regarding Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. the previous areas which have been done, could the Minister The purpose of this Order is to declare the Parish Districts possibly give us an insight into the difficulties that have taken of Braddan and Onchan, including the Borough of Douglas, place so we can be warned for the larger area? I do not know a compulsory registration area for the purpose of entry 1 – it does not say here – actually when the exercise is to finish, in part 1 of schedule 2 of the Land Registration Act 1982. Section 24(1) of the Land Registration Act 1982 provides that or the potential of this. Is it ongoing all the time, or is it worth the Department of Local Government and the Environment, a person to define their own plot, if there are any disputes, of with the concurrence of the Treasury, may by order declare actually going forward with this more quickly than it would that any area specified in the order shall be a compulsory normally turn over, if you can get my meaning? registration area. The introduction of compulsory registration to include The President: Mr Shimmin to reply. the Parish Districts of Braddan and Onchan, including the Borough of Douglas, is the final phase in the introduction The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. of Islandwide compulsory registration, which originally The main issue regarding when will it finish is that this started in 2001 when the parishes of , Ballaugh, only comes to light on acquisition of land or long-term leases. and Jurby were declared as compulsory registration That means that this process will be with us for many, many areas. The progression of this Order will also enable the years. However, it has already been trialled in those other Land Registry to fulfil an earlier commitment to develop areas and was deliberately started in some of the smaller the Land Registry and to move forward with the electronic parishes to identify the difficulties and, certainly, there is a delivery of information. resource requirement but the expertise has been built up over The main features of the land registration system are: the time since this process was begun. the registration of title, which provides an up-to-date and The Land Registry do not envisage major problems; immediately accessible official record of the ownership however, there are staffing implications to take this forward of land and of legal charges secured on the land; proof of as we move into what is the largest population area of the ownership will be readily obtained by modern means of Island along with, by association, the largest number of communication; a registered title is guaranteed because, land sales and purchases. So it is something which, if any subject to normal insurance principles, the indemnity is paid individual required, because there is some dispute about should any person suffer loss through any error in or omission their land, they can take on a voluntary approach to the Land from the Register; registration of title can cure defects in Registry to have their land recorded. However, normally it unregistered title, for instance, where title deeds have been would just take place when normal conveyancing takes its lost or destroyed, or there is some technical defect in the normal process. title; for each registered title there will be an official plan; I assume that the Land Registry welcome anybody taking a proprietor of a land registered with absolute title has full an interest because this has been with us for a number of powers of disposition of the land of which they are the legal years and there have been problems in the past regarding owner; and, finally, the Register of Title is open to the public developers purchasing properties and then having to record to inspect without the need to obtain any consents. it, and then wishing to sell on that property once it has been

Members of Tynwald – (Resettlement Grant) Scheme 2009 approved Land Registration Act 1982 – Land Registration (Designation of Compulsory Area) Order 2009 approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1003 T126 developed. But certainly the staff down there, anybody who The President: We then turn to Item 19, headed up: has not taken time to approach them, can explain any of the University of Salford. Hon. Members, the need to elect details about the practical operation. one Member to serve on the Assembly of the University of I beg to move, sir. Salford. The former Member of the Court of the University was The President: Hon. Members, the motion I put to the Mr Cretney, who was elected for a period expiring on 31st Court is that printed at Item 18. Those in favour, please say July 2009, since when the Court of the University of Salford aye; against, no. The ayes have it. has been replaced with the Assembly of the University. The period of appointment to the Assembly is for three years. A division was called for and electronic voting resulted I call for nominations, Hon. Members. as follows: Chief Minister.

In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 0 The Chief Minister: I beg to move the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Cretney, sir. FOR AGAINST Mr Quirk None Mr Lowey: I would like to second, Mr President. Mr Earnshaw Mr Brown Mr Crookall Mrs Craine: I second, sir. Mr Anderson Mrs Craine The President: Seconded by Mrs Craine. Mr Bell Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Lowey: Can I just say that, speaking with a vested Mr Cregeen interest, one of the few titles that I got was an honorary title Mr Houghton from this University. It is not just the Assembly that is new. Mr Henderson The University has a new Chancellor, who is a South African Mr Malarkey from Cape Town. The Vice Chancellor is a gentleman from Mrs Cannell South Australia. It is one of the most dynamic universities. Mr Braidwood Mr Corkish We are closely associated with the University of Salford Mr Shimmin for the excellent work it did on behalf of industry and the Mr Cretney development of industry in the Isle of Man, and I think it Mr Watterson was one of the pioneer universities that actually ‘dirtied its Mr Gawne hands with industry’, I think was the phrase at the time. It The Speaker is a vibrant university of over 30,000 students and should be supported, and I wish Mr Cretney a happy sojourn at the The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the University. Keys, 21 votes for, none against. The President: I have but the one nomination, Hon. In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1 Members. Those in favour of Mr Cretney, please say aye; FOR AGAINST against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Crowe Mr Callister Mr Cretney becomes our Member on the Assembly of Mr Downie the University. Mrs Christian Mr Lowey Mr Waft Mr Butt Mr Turner Select Committee on Advertising in the Countryside Items 20 and 21 withdrawn The President: In the Council there were 7 for, 1 against, Hon. Members. The motion therefore carries, Hon. 20. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to Members. move:

That the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, be discharged from service on the Select Committee of University of Salford the Court on Advertising in the Countryside. Mr Cretney elected to serve on the Assembly 21. To elect one Member of Tynwald in place of Mrs 19. To elect one Member to serve on the Assembly of the Cannell. University of Salford. (The other Members of the Committee are Mr Watterson (The former Member of the Court of the University was (Chairman) and Mr Turner.) Mr Cretney, who was elected for a period expiring on 31st July 2009, since when the Court of the University The President: Hon. Members, as I understand it, the of Salford has been replaced with the Assembly of the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, wishes to University. The period of appointment to the Assembly withdraw Item 20. You will be aware, Hon. Members, that is three years.) you have had circulated to you, as I understand it, a letter

Land Registration Act 1982 – Land Registration (Designation of Compulsory Area) Order 2009 approved University of Salford – Mr Cretney elected to serve on the Assembly Select Committee on Advertising in the Countryside – Items 20 and 21 withdrawn 1004 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day written today to Jonathan King as the Clerk of the Select staff, further adding to the busyness of the area. Compounding Committee on Advertising in the Countryside. I am aware this, we have the Hailwood Medical Centre, with several that 5.1.(1) of Standing Orders places the duty on a Member. I GPs, nurses and health visitors working from that centre am also aware that, possibly, 5.15 and 5.16 could provide for and operating an appointment-based system for patients. Tynwald to discharge. The letter having been written today, We have a busy chemist, a large one-stop shop, Governor’s Hon. Members, has not yet been before the Committee and Hill Stores, open early till late, attracting customers from far I will not be dealing with that matter at this stage. Item 20 and wide, adding further many additional traffic movements will not be moved. to the estate. In that case, Hon. Members, there being no vacancy on We also have the Pumpkin Patch Nursery School, busy the Committee at this current time, Item 21 will equally not and well patronised, and of course a very busy public be moved. house, the Cat with No Tail. Forgive me, Eaghtyrane, for going on, but I need to give Members a feel of how large and busy Governor’s Hill estate actually is, and I think it is now abundantly apparent that this is a very, very busy estate Governor’s Hill estate in terms of traffic movements. This was borne out by the Road safety measures Minister in his Answer last month. Motion lost At the Johnny Watterson-Hailwood Avenue junction, during a day, we have nearly 4,000 traffic movements in and 22. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) out of the estate. I would guess most of this will be between to move: 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. during the heavy traffic watershed, and if you work it out, Eaghtyrane, that is almost four vehicle That Tynwald is of the opinion that given the length of movements a second. That is extremely busy for a residential time representations have been made to the Department estate, but that is only half the story. The figures will show of Transport by both Hon. Members for Douglas North similar statistics for the other junction at Bemahague- in relation to road safety issues at Governor’s Hill Hailwood Avenue, which will double, or have the potential to residential estate, the Department of Transport should double, the figures I have already mentioned. Compounding make progress with the modest but effective proposals put this even further, the Abbeyfields residential development, at to them over several years as soon as practicable. the north side of Governor’s Hill, has a link road from it to the Hillcrofts within Governor’s Hill estate, attracting even The President: That takes us to Item 22, Hon. Members: further cut-through traffic movements. road safety measures. Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr So what we have, Eaghtyrane, Hon. Members, is a near Henderson, to move, please. thousand-house estate – a residential development with approximately 2,700 to 3,000 inhabitants, old and young Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. – with a highway straight through the middle of it, connecting Eaghtyrane, over the past 10 years, Mr Houghton and two of the busiest arterial roads in the Island, with a possible I have made a continuous stream of representations to the combined 8,000 traffic movements a day. Department of Transport with regard to road safety matters Little wonder I have this motion down today. I could not concerning North Douglas and, in particular, the Governor’s exaggerate the picture, even if I tried. The facts speak for Hill residential estate within the constituency – in our themselves. Little wonder myself and Mr Houghton, along opinion, to virtually no avail. with our constituents, are extremely concerned with regard As everyone knows, Governor’s Hill is a near-1,000- to road safety. It is only a few weeks ago a little girl was house residential area. It has a predominantly younger family knocked down on Hailwood Avenue. Given the figures, this population, which means the neighbourhood is home to many kind of thing is just waiting to happen again and again. young people of all ages, tots to teenagers. It is also home What makes this even worse – if it could be any worse to many elderly people and has one of the Island’s largest – is that many vehicles are driven through the estate at over care-of-the-elderly complexes, either Government or private: the 20-miles-an-hour home-zone speed limit. This has been Elder Grange. The main street, or highway, as it really is, observed by us on numerous occasions. The Minister’s own of Governor’s Hill is Hailwood Avenue, which bisects the figures again bear this out in answer to my Questions from last estate roughly from west to east, forming a junction to the month. He went on to claim that, because 85 vehicles out of west of Johnny Watterson’s Lane and to the east at the TT 100 were within the speed limit, that was very good. I suppose course at Bedstead Corner on the Bemahague Road. Both the it sounds good on paper, Eaghtyrane, but that leaves us, as I Bemahague Road and Watterson Lane are major arterial roads tried to point out last month, 15 per cent of a possible 8,000 which feed into and out of Douglas. Moreover, these arterial vehicle movements over the limit for a residential area. roads are subject to many thousands of traffic movements per That is over a vehicle movement a minute during 6 day, as evidenced by DoT traffic figures themselves. They p.m. to 10 p.m. where the speed limit is continuously being are some of the busiest roads in the Isle of Man. broken. I do not think anyone here would deny, given these As I say, the DoT can easily confirm that. Hailwood facts – which they are, I have been quoting DoT figures, do Avenue serves as a link between these two roads and is an not forget – that not only is this a potentially very dangerous attractive alternative shortcut route for many drivers of cars situation, but has proved to be the case many times over. What and delivery vans alike, who do not live within the estate, is never reported to the DoT or the Police are the regular near building further on an already busy residential road. misses, which occur on a daily basis. Vehicle to vehicle and As the Minister for Transport answered me last month vehicle to pedestrian and especially, vehicle to children. I during Question Time, we have one of the Island’s largest notice the DoT Minister is taking very careful note of what primary schools, Cronk y Berry, with just 405 pupils and 51 I am saying, Eaghtyrane – I mean zilch, which I find very

Select Committee on Advertising in the Countryside – Items 20 and 21 withdrawn Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1005 T126 upsetting, considering I have had to spend a lot of time and we could discuss, virtually on-site, the Governor’s Hill effort in bringing this here and continuous questions over problem – (Interjection) no, we did not! – with Mr Bruce the year on this matter. Hannay and Mr Les Wilson – quite an unprecedented move So, Eaghtyrane, we are not here for nothing, but if you at that time. think that is bad, then unfortunately – (Interjection by Mr We have had your officials at the Hillcrofts at Governor’s Watterson) Thank you, Mr Watterson, your interjections are Hill, to hear first hand from residents their concerns for most welcome. pedestrian safety and the dangers of cut-through roads. Those Unfortunately, there is more. The only traffic calming residents have written to you, Minister, and your Department measures that we have on the entire estate are those on the many times on that particular aspect. main highway through the area on Hailwood Avenue. All We held a public meeting at Cronk y Berry School, with other roads, many unmarked junctions, have no calming your officials and Police: same concerns, busy roads, densely measures at all. All we have is a sign at each entrance to populated area, more traffic calming required, not just to Governor’s Hill advertising, or advising sorry, of the 20 mile reduce speed, but to make it safer and reduce the potential. an hour home zone speed. Mr Houghton and I have been Capt. Douglas and the Director of Highways, Mr Bruce asking for years for a survey to be undertaken to assess what Hannay, attended that, as did senior police officials. additional measures are required to be put in place to improve We have made many, many verbal representations road safety for pedestrians and drivers alike. on behalf of constituents of Governor’s Hill in relation In some of his answers to me last month the Minister made to road traffic safety. We have made many, many written great play that some hedging and shrubs had been removed representations. No doubt now, as Members will be aware, from part of Hailwood Avenue to dramatically improve it would seem that they have been fired into the bin, as there what I had been seeking. He gave members of the public the seems to be no record. impression that all was now well, or soon would be. Because I The Minister never made one mention to this deluge of know my constituency like the back of my hand, this indicates requests over the past years that has been ongoing and will to me that the Minister has not been well briefed at all and, not stop until the residents – our constituents – have some in fact, is bluffing his way through very real concerns. The peace of mind and why shouldn’t they? Just quoting the 85 undergrowth, as he put it, that was removed was in relation percentile at people is an insult to their intelligence. to only one blind bend in the entire estate and was done at my Just because your officers’ tabletop computer exercises personal insistence via Douglas Corporation. It was a great and textbooks give figures and criteria to bin our concerns and shame, nonetheless, that the undergrowth he spoke of, which those of our constituents, does not mean that a problem does was removed, was purpose-planted, flowering shrubs, which not exist. (A Member: Hear, hear.) We are seeking simple, had a major beneficial impact on the amenity of the area. commonsense, low-cost solutions that are a neighbourhood So the Minister needs to be very careful of the information response to the very busy roads in Governor’s Hill so that which is being fed to him. people feel safer, our children feel safer, and mitigate against Worse still, Eaghtyrane, is the fact that, again, in answering the reckless or unthinking drivers that pervade through our my Tynwald Questions of last month, the Minister stated estate. One or two speed humps additionally, here or there quite categorically that the only representation that had been – respecting our buses – rumble strips, speed repeater signs, made to the Department that he was aware of regarding the all junctions marked, better signage in place… We have road safety of Governors Hill were ‘a few letters and phone never been asking for over-the-top solutions or expensive calls’ – and that is a direct quote – ‘from residents, relating options. in the main to parking’. He also categorically stated that, at For 10 years you have been asked for this. Just because regular meetings which take place between his Department, a computer model or textbook dictates otherwise… we have Police and local authorities, no concerns had been raised in a community of around 3,000 people to look after here; it is this respect to his Department. As far as I am concerned, not much to ask for. It will improve people’s quality of life Eaghtyrane, that is rubbish and is very, very misleading. and if it makes people and their families feel safer, reduces Eaghtyrane, I need to list out, for the record, the amount the amount of near misses – which is the important thing of representations that I am aware of that have been made to – causes more reckless drivers to slow down and improves his Department, none of which the Minister made mention of the safety of our children and elderly, then surely that is a in his Tynwald Answers to me last month, which specifically good thing. Measuring in an area for the amount of formally asked for that information. reported accidents is totally misleading as to the real situation One of the first constituency jobs I took on, when I was and the real potential of an accident, which must be addressed elected nearly 10 years ago, was that of road safety within as well, Eaghtyrane. Governor’s Hill, assisted by my colleague. Residents reported I beg to move, sir. to me that they were sick of making complaints to the DoT at that time, and nothing being done. We campaigned for a The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member. school crossing patrol officer for Cronk y Berry School and eventually got one. At least one public petition was raised Mr Houghton: I beg to second, sir and reserve my at this time and presented to the Department. We asked the remarks. Department of Education to place pedestrian crash barriers at the lower school entrance on the busy Lakeside Road, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Anderson. because of many parents’ concerns. That was done and a dropped kerb was eventually placed, as well. The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank Mr Houghton and I met with the Minister’s senior you, Mr President. officials at the Cat with No Tail. We bought them lunch, Department of Transport staff have assessed their records on our expense, (Interjections) (A Member: Bribery!) so over a three-year period and have found references to two

Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost 1006 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day issues raised by the Hon. Members for North Douglas for These quite clearly show that the traffic flowing through the Governor’s Hill residential housing estate. These related to estate is doing so at a quite reasonable speed. the adoption of Campion Way, Orchard Close, Foxglove For the huge number of vehicles that travel through the Close, Gorse Croft, Stonecroft Grove, Dove Croft, Heather estate, the number of accidents in the last three years has Lane and Honeysuckle Lane, which made up J G Kelly Ltd’s only been three: on 29th August 2006, a child pedestrian ran Abbeyfield estate. These roads were adopted in July 2007. out into the road; on 14th November 2006, a vehicle passed I think, Mr President, it is fair to point out, at this stage, Lakeside Road, was stopped and reversed into a pedestrian that the estate was actually designed to the Manx roads who was crossing behind the vehicle; and on 20th March, standards – 1A standard – and the roads were designed for subject to police investigations, early indications are that a residential area. That is why we have such a low number there will be no further action on this one, where a child was of accidents, but a high number of vehicles using it. Mr involved, and the child ran out into the road. Quite clearly, Henderson and Mr Houghton wrote to the Department of the child was at fault and not the driver of the vehicle. Transport to complain about the volumes and speed of traffic Other incidents in the last three years – there were on Hillcroft Rise and Governor’s Hill Douglas and requested 12 incidents that have occurred – three pedestrian; seven a site meeting with local residents. incidents have occurred when parked vehicles have been The Department’s representatives attended a site meeting damaged; two vehicles have been damaged roadside, one with Mr Henderson and three local residents on 19th March included an MEA pole. 2008. At the meeting the Department’s representatives The conclusion is that the high traffic speeds are not cited discussed the information held by the Department and it was as the cause of the incident on the Governor’s Hill estate. further agreed that traffic surveys would be undertaken during Statistics bear this out. These statistics… we would be very the peak traffic periods. These assessments were undertaken pleased if it were happening in other major estates on the in March 2008, as it was found a maximum of two vehicles Island. Therefore, Mr President, I do not think we should be per hour travelled the whole length of Hillcroft Rise and supporting this motion. vehicle speeds were low. Residents requested a full automated traffic count during The President: Mr Houghton. the school summer holidays. This was carried out between 28th July and 4th August 2008. This survey identified the Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. following: the majority of traffic – 85 vehicles in every Well, you have just heard the testimony from the Minister, hundred – travelled below 20 mph; the maximum traffic who is always right! speed was 28.3 mph.; there were 114 vehicles per day The Minister is always right and never wrong, because he recorded for an average of 25 properties. Each property is advised by his Department. We have heard the testimony usually, statistically, generates between six and eight trips per that we have been wasting our time, folks, and I am very day on the Island. It is clear from this information that the sorry – I do apologise to this Court – that we have been Department has received enquiries relating to traffic speed wasting our time. It is very strange, though. I did wonder at and volume on Hillcroft Rise in the Governor’s Hill estate. the time when the Minister, of course, who is always right The data collected both through observation and – and he has advised this Court accordingly… that he knew automated count do not support this route is being used by where Governor’s Hill was, because he was telling us about commuter traffic and the majority of local residents who Abbeyfields. Abbeyfields is a separate estate to Governor’s were using this road to access their property are travelling Hill! It has no relevance whatsoever – but the Minister is at or below the 20 miles an hour speed limit. The location always right. of this traffic count ensured that maximum traffic speeds for this road, of 28.3 mph at 1300 hours, travelling northbound, A Member: The fount of all wisdom! and 24.7 miles an hour southbound, were recorded. These low maximum speeds are a direct consequence of the estate Mr Houghton: He goes on about the traffic surveys on road geometric layouts and no additional traffic calming is Hillcroft Rise. Yes, a road that we have concerns about, but therefore required. what Mr Henderson has been propounding this afternoon to I am informed the residents’ concerns predominantly Hon. Members in this Court is the dangerous roads, especially relate to the dangers children may be exposed to while playing the circular road through Hailwood Avenue, through on the road adjacent to the amenity green area, located off Lakeside Road, including the busy Neighbourhood Centre Hillcroft Rise. The Department of Transport undertake a and everything else, of which, of course, the Department of proactive programme of road safety education and training to Transport has now got ownership, as such. enable schoolchildren to safely travel along and cross public When the Hon. Member, my hon. colleague, Mr highways. However, parental supervision and guidance is Henderson, and I were up surveying the area, yet again, crucial for children to develop their road safety awareness the other day, we counted, and I think I counted, at least skills and this approach will prevent children from playing three abandoned vehicles – one with flat tyres – up in the on the roads and other unsuitable locations. Neighbourhood Centre. But there is no problem, because Therefore, Mr President, I oppose this motion because a the Minister is right and these problems are not happening. full and detailed assessment has been carried out in response We do not have dangerous abandoned vehicles in any of the to Mr Henderson’s enquiries, and that information does not other Department-owned car parks in Governor’s Hill. We support the argument for additional traffic calming measures. have no problems at all. The Minister has told us that and In fact, I wish we had such a high… average low speed count we should all know that. in other major estates on the Island: as the statistics – as Mr What the Minister is doing is… For so long and for so Henderson points out – bear out, they are what we should many times he listens to the advice that he is given. He be basing our information and road calming measures on. told you that earlier on today when he told you that the

Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1007 T126 traffic-management plan for the TT evacuation, should an Can I just say if you have got abandoned vehicles evacuation be required due to late road closures etc, is still up there… have they been reported to the Police? (Mr being worked up in the Department. The Minister told us Henderson: Yes.) And the same with speeding. that, so we should believe it, and actually that is something, for the very first time from the Department of Transport, I Mr Henderson: To you. could actually believe – that they have not done anything about what Members in this Hon. Court – Mr Crookall: Not to me.

The Minister: Point of order, Mr President. Mr Henderson: It is your car park. I stated at the time that meetings had taken place and Members would have the traffic management plan before Mr Crookall: It has not been reported to me. I am asking: the TT. have you reported them to the Police? But… that is what we need. (Interjection) Mr Houghton: Mr President, I am through with meetings Mr President, a lot of what we come down to here is an – and I am through with meetings with the Department of enforcement matter. We do our bit and the Police should be Transport, too – because nothing gets done. All the agencies doing their bit and, hopefully, they are telling them. that they call partners, the Police and their partners, and all Can I just say the Department has assessed Mr the agencies still have not managed to put together a traffic Henderson’s request for traffic calming on Oakdale Drive management plan for evacuating Douglas. and Lakeside Road and the traffic engineers have proposed But I will return to Governor’s Hill, to this particular area the installation of centre line marking, to encourage traffic here, because the same thing exists through Governor’s Hill not to cut the corners in this location. A similar solution – as my hon. colleague has clearly stated this afternoon – that was installed on the Saddlestone estate last year which has the Minister has got no knowledge of. I would just wish, at actually proved very successful in reducing traffic speed and some time, for the Minister – and he has done it before, on the potential for an accident. So that will be done as soon as other junctions; he has been good enough in that particular possible up at the Lakeside. regard – to see for himself exactly what the situations are Whether we are talking about two vehicles an hour or, during those busy times. Two vehicle movements an hour, I as Mr Henderson said right at the beginning of his speech, think he mentioned, going up through Hillcroft Rise, which four vehicles a second – that was the figure he actually used is one of the quieter roads in Governor’s Hill. It is not a case but I think he got that wrong… As I said… That was what to be putting to this Court on a very, very busy estate that is you actually said, but – served by two main arterial roads. His Department, on one of those arterial roads, is going Mr Henderson: I did not get it wrong. If you have got to, very shortly, start widening it, because it is one of the 8,000 traffic movements in there – entry roads for Douglas. It goes through our constituency, but it serves, basically, Noble’s Hospital and the The President: Mr Henderson. area from that arterial road. I am glad he is doing that work, because if it was just for that very quiet estate up there at Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. Governor’s Hill – just for that very quiet estate – I am sure What I am saying now is the Department… we work he would not be widening the road. Nobody would be asking with our statistics. They are the correct statistics and the rest him to do so, because there are only two vehicle movements of it comes down to an enforcement issue. We will look at an hour in one section of Governor’s Hill. it again with you. I am not saying we will not, but we will So, Mr President, Hon. Members, what the Department have to oppose you on this. is putting to him is not the case. He is being misinformed once again. I cannot put the matter to you any stronger than The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. that, and we have now the whole debate here on Hansard. I really hope, from the bottom of my heart, we do not have Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. to come back to the Hon. Court, complaining bitterly, as we Just for information purposes, the car park at the Cat most certainly will be doing, if someone gets killed on that With No Tail has actually recently been handed over to DoT road, because of the lack of attention from the Department properties. of Transport and, of course, follow-up attention from the Police. Mr Henderson: We know. Thank you. Mr Quirk: I have been made aware of the vehicles The President: Hon. Member, Mr Crookall. which are abandoned there, so they will be dealt with, I can assure you. Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. Can I just start off by actually commending the two The President: Mr Waft, Hon. Member. Members for Douglas North. I know, at the end of the day, they are trying to look after their constituents, which is what Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. we all do. We all have housing estates. We all have figures I certainly have some sympathy with this motion. I do which we are given by the DoT. That is what we have to work travel through there, not regularly, but occasionally and with and the figures that the Minister has given you are the I do see incidents that have been explained to me on this true ones; they are the readings from the cables on how many motion. vehicles go through there and what speeds they are doing. There has been a problem there for a long time, especially

Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost 1008 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day with regard to the Johnny Watterson’s Lane area with the has lived in our estate, unfortunately, over the years, who traffic lights. We were waiting for yonks for them to turn up have come here to live for six to 12 months, bought a £100 and, when they did turn up, they were not turned on! It caused vehicle while their work contract lasts and then dumped it quite consternation when they were trying to get children in the communal car parks and left the Island. We have had from the new estate up Johnny Watterson’s Lane and across a continual problem with dealing with that. I know exactly the road – the young children going to Willaston School. It what I am talking about… was a very dangerous area and it has only come into its own Dealing with the Minister’s input, Eaghtyrane, I am truly now, a little bit, but the slowdown is because of those lights, astonished! Mr Anderson majored, at the outset of his speech, what is happening in that area, but to see people coming out with regard to Dovescroft, Gorsecroft and other streets that from Governor’s Hill etc, it makes you think what speed have nothing whatsoever to do with Governor’s Hill. That is have they been doing when they come in there, because of the Abbeyfields estate he was referring to, which is not part of the rate they come out at. my motion and my motion makes no part to that 130-house So I have some sympathy with this and I do appreciate estate, which is separate. The only thing I do mention is there that the Department have taken a lot of trouble over making is a cut-through from that estate into Governor’s Hill, which recommendations, examining the situation, but there is increases the busyness of the traffic. nothing slows a motorist down if he thinks he is under The Minister made great play of the fact that I had made consideration by a chap standing on the corner watching – and Mr Houghton – continual representations – or two, he him, what speed he is going to do, especially if he has got a says. There is, in fact, a giant file somewhere, if it has not high vis coat on. So I would like the Members to take up the been binned, with regard to the road adoption at Abbeyfields. offer that has been made by the Department of Transport. I We did, sir – pushing along with the concerns of our residents consider the worthwhile representation of this Court is trying over the years that nothing was being done there! We had to to get something perpetrated. take the cudgels up and fight like billy-o, to get the two sides together and get some common sense into the situation to The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member. resolve that. That is a separate issue, Eaghtyrane. The amount of complaints I have personally, along with Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Houghton, put to the Minister’s Department, he has not The Hon. Member for Peel mentioned that they were come out with and said tonight, which I find truly astonishing. going to put the white lines down, as an area to try and keep You, sir, have not mentioned once the fight I had with your them out. officers to get estate roads adopted. You have not mentioned Could I make a suggestion that they actually make it once the fight we are having now to get the rest of it adopted. rumble strips because, as through Ballasalla, you have painted The car park issue was just a tiny little grain of sand on bits of road, to try and distract people from going over them, Douglas beach, Eaghtyrane, compared to the fight we have but it is actually worn out with people cutting through it. So had with the Department of Transport over the years. by putting the rumble strips down the centre of the road, it I am putting it on record now that it was so bad at one may assist people to keep the line that you want, rather than point with the road adoption for Hailwood Avenue in the just painting a simple line on it. main estate, where the DoT would not move on it, that we reported the whole matter to Internal Audit of the Treasury The President: Mr Henderson to reply. to have a senior official in his Department, who is still there, to be investigated. I am astonished that the stuff being fed Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. to the Minister does not reflect what has really been going Eaghtyrane, I am seriously glad I put this motion here on and it shows me that information to Ministers and Chief tonight, for public debate, and I am seriously glad it is going Executives is actually filtered, which we will come to on out live, because what I have got to say now may possibly the motion next, which is highlighted not by me, but by an astound some Hon. Members. investigating officer. That is how bad it was. I am just totally astonished, myself, at some of the input There is a massive – or there was a massive – file on the from the Minister with regard to this, because now it has gone road adoption issues at Governor’s Hill – not Abbeyfields, to not just road safety, but there are information issues here Eaghtyrane, Hon. Members, forget that – I am talking about that have now gone critical. There have been some very, very the letters and messages and phone calls and meetings I have serious observations made here tonight that I have to correct. had with Ministers and officials. The Minister has quite happily made those and he has been The Minister did not acknowledge we had a meeting at completely erroneous in what he has been saying. the Cat With No Tail with his most senior highway officials, First I will pick Mr Crookall off, because his input with Bruce Hannay and Les Wilson. He has not acknowledged regard to abandoned cars was erroneous. I had to pursue the meetings we have had at the Sea Terminal buildings the Department of Transport to undertake the adoption of with Bruce Hannay and Les Wilson – same issue. He has the Governor’s Hill Hailwood Court car park in order to not acknowledged the fact that we met at Cronk y Berry have that situation resolved. The abandoned cars that he School, a residents’ road safety meeting, public meeting. speaks of, which are littered in that car park, have been The Speaker at the time was Minister for Education and he reported by me to the relevant body, which is his Abandoned kindly agreed to waive the hiring of the school hall fees for Vehicle Officer in DoT – several times. Now I have got the that major meeting which senior police officers attended. Yet situation resolved and it has been re-reported – as Mr Quirk there is no recognition of that. I find it astonishing that that has rightly said now – for further action. It is not a case of is not coming forward. (Interjection) reporting it to the Police, Eaghtyrane; the correct procedure Now you can begin to see why I am here making the is the Abandoned Vehicles Officer. We have got specialist complaints that I am, Eaghtyrane. It is amazing how things knowledge of this, because of the transient population that are forgotten, or massaged or filtered, so that the Minister

Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1009 T126 can just read out a few bits that sound quite plausible. The It took an entire estate petition to get the school crossing Minister said the roads in Governor’s Hill are designed in patrol officer in place, which was presented to your such a way that it is safe and it is nice. Yes, the main drag Department and it should be on file. I find it incredible, again, has a kink in the middle of it and it has got a couple of traffic that the historian who has been digging the stuff out has not islands that have got speed bumps on, but I am afraid, when unearthed all that – or perhaps it was just too big to bring in we look again at the figures – the Minister’s own figures – the here, and the big cartload it would surely fill. 85th percentile, which he keeps quoting, there are vehicles Other tiny little measures that we have had successes that go above and beyond that – 15 per cent, in fact – and with; the amount of asking and asking I had to do to get the his figures showed that one of the junctions measured was roads adopted. But I had the same response to start with: no, something like 3,500 traffic movements in one day. The other no, no – ‘we are waiting for this; we are waiting for that.’ junction is just as busy, so I will give way to that, Eaghtyrane, We were fobbed off, we were put off – in fact, we were and we will put it down to 7,000 traffic movements per day. treated with total contempt at one point, whereby we made But 15 per cent of 7,000 traffic movements then, that is a lot a formal complaint to the Treasury Audit team, at the way of cars which are going above 20 miles an hour. we were being treated. As Hon. Members know, myself and What I am talking about – and I find it amazing that the Mr Houghton can be quite assertive at times, and you would Minister just quotes a few reported accidents. He went on think, ‘Oh well, if that’s how they were when they started about some car damage and a couple of things, a reversed off, little wonder!’ But I can assure Hon. Members, with accident and so on. The amount of potential for an accident all sincerity, that when we embarked on this, or any other on the estate at the minute is quite high and that is what I am project, it was done in a professional and polite manner. talking about, the potential. That has been totally ignored in Sitting down two senior Government officials for a slap-up my input, but I made it quite clear, which again I find quite lunch at our expense to explain first-hand what is going on astonishing, the amount of near misses, which again, they in the estate – that does not sound rude or threatening to me. will never be reported, Minister. People will not report that It was laid out in a gentlemanly fashion, all the issues, and kind of thing, unless they have to: they do not want to get we still got nowhere! involved. And I can say now, Eaghtyrane, that we certainly will be I have witnessed, on numerous occasions, and been the forced to come back here again, time and time again, because recipient of some of the reckless driving within that estate, now this cannot be dropped. We have made promises and because I am in there every day of the week and have to suffer commitments to our constituents that we will keep trying for some of the lunatics that use our estate as a cut through. It them. Currently myself and Mr Houghton are being made is amazing. Vehicle to vehicle and vehicle to pedestrian, I fools out of and our reputation is on the line over this and have seen it personally so many times and had it reported to that is not going to happen. me so many times. I just want to make sure that that is on I would also say there is an issue unfolding at the bottom public record because, as my colleague said in his input, Mr of Watterson Lane, where we had to drag him and his officials Houghton, this is another accident just waiting to happen. to look at, although there is some activity for that junction If somebody is seriously hurt or killed – and I am not going on now, and putting it on public record now, that that shroud waving, it has been raised and raised and raised issue, if we cannot resolve it shortly, where all the residents in with his Department – we will lend the people who have Hightonwood Hill and the surrounding are relying on myself been unfortunate to be involved in such an accident our full and Mr Houghton, if that issue cannot be resolved shortly and unequivocal support in that and supply all the evidence or some positive input… I agree one of his officers over the documents necessary to show what we have been trying to past few days has been very helpful, actually, but this has do. We have been fully accountable to our residents and gone on – I have been elected 10 years and have been asking our constituents. We started this, Eaghtyrane, asking the from day one of my election that this situation be resolved. Department in a professional, measured manner. We sent It has got to the point now where I will definitely – and Mr reasonable letters to Mr Bruce Hannay and Mr Les Wilson. Houghton – be back here in whatever guise I can, bring it We asked them to reasonable meetings, where we cited our back to keep the pressure on, because it has got to that stage, concerns and so on. Yet it has fallen on deaf ears all this Eaghtyrane. It is unbelievable. time. The Department should be ashamed of itself in some All that we were ever wanting was some common-sense, ways. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) We have never asked for low-cost solutions that would have a huge impact on the much, just a little common-sense, some low-cost solutions potential that I have been talking about, and assist to reduce to help, and as I say, Hon. Members, do not be fooled by that 15 per cent of reckless drivers who do not care about the these traffic counts that they keep trying to bamboozle you people of Governor’s Hill and do not care about the children with. The point is, if 15 per cent of vehicles are over the or elderly who cannot get out of the way quickly enough. If speed limit and the traffic movements that, certainly, the we can reduce that 15 per cent down to 7 per cent – cut it in Minister answered, even if – I will give way to that – there half, even – that is a major result and a major safety factor for are 3,500 traffic movements off one junction, 15 per cent of our estate. That is what we are asking for. No other roads in those throughout the day are above the speed limit or have there have any calming measures whatsoever. There are no the potential to be above the speed limit. Nonetheless, that repeater signs anywhere. There are further blind bends in that amount of traffic movements throughout the day, on a near estate that could benefit from signage and some rumble strips thousand-house estate, ramps up the potential for an accident – pretty easy stuff, Eaghtyrane, low-cost, very effective. for the near misses. That is not me trying to sell the situation But the input from the Minister tonight is exactly the here: it is quite obvious. wall that myself and Mr Houghton have faced for the past That is all we are trying to do, reduce the potential, 10 years: that wall that says, ‘Our figures say this: no. Our increase the safety and if we get the 15 per cent down to figures say this: no.’ That is all we have had. seven, that has got to be a good result. It makes people

Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost 1010 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day feel safe and makes families feel safe, if they know the (iv) notes that, as a result of that Committee, the potential has been reduced. That is what we are here for, Government is now committed to introducing an Auditor Eaghtyrane. General, which will improve the resources available to Gura mie eu. support scrutiny of the executive; (v) notes that it is already possible for the Public Accounts The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to Committee to engage expert advice on a temporary basis the Court is that printed at Item 22 on your Order Paper, Hon. but that this is not routinely done; Members, in the name of the Member for Douglas North, (vi) notes that powers are available under section 1 of headed up Road Safety Measures. the Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 to provide Those in favour of Item 22, please say aye; against, no. equivalent remuneration to holders of executive and The noes have it. non-executive offices; (vii) considers that as the Island comes under increasing A division was called for and electronic voting resulted international attention, every effort should continue to be as follows: made to maximise the separation between executive and scrutiny functions; In the Keys – Ayes 4, Noes 16 (viii) notes that a new system has recently been implemented in Jersey in which executive and scrutiny FOR AGAINST roles are separated; and therefore Mr Cannan Mr Quirk (ix) appoints a Committee of three Members with powers Mr Houghton Mr Earnshaw Mr Henderson Mr Brown to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 Mr Malarkey Mr Crookall and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended, Mr Anderson to investigate and report no later than November 2009 Mr Bell with recommendations on how the arrangements for the Mr Quayle independent scrutiny of the executive could be further Mr Teare Mr Cregeen improved, and whether the Public Accounts Committee Mr Braidwood should routinely co-opt lay members for particular Mr Corkish investigations. Mr Shimmin Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Gawne The Speaker Hartford Homes: Bounty House, Main Road, Onchan Motion not made The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails to carry in the Keys, 4 votes for, 16 against. 26. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move:

In the Council – Ayes 4, Noes 3 That Tynwald notes the commitment of the Department of Local Government and the Environment to urban FOR AGAINST regeneration, and is of the opinion that the Department Mr Callister Mrs Christian should consider the feasibility of the purchase of the Mr Crowe Mr Butt Hartford Homes development at Bounty House, Main Mr Lowey Mr Turner Mr Waft Road, Onchan, with a view to using the development for (a) a supported independent living service for physically The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, there are disabled adults, and (b) the establishment of a project by 4 for, 3 against. Branches are in disagreement, the motion Onchan District Commissioners of public sector housing therefore fails to carry, Hon. Members. for over-50-year-olds; and that the Department should investigate any other uses for Government and report by July 2009.July 2009.

Independent scrutiny of the executive The President: Hon. Members, at this particular time I Motion not made am on the horns of a dilemma. I have still got two motions which we will need to discuss. I understand from Mr Karran 24. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move: that he will not be moving either Item 24 or Item 26, Hon. Members, which leaves me with Item 23 and Item 25. That Tynwald – (i) accepts that in a small jurisdiction potential conflicts of interest are a constant challenge; (ii) appreciates the steps which have been taken to date Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete business by Members of the Public Accounts Committee, Scrutiny Committee and other parliamentary Committees to ensure The President: I am aware now, Hon. Members, that we those Committees act independently of the executive; could very well have an amendment to Item 23 which may, (iii) notes that the 2006 Select Committee on Scrutiny depending on how things go, avoid the necessity to move and the Functions of the PAC considered but rejected the Item 25. That means if that were to happen, I have but the option of making PAC and Scrutiny Committee members one Item to go. ineligible for executive roles (PP120/06, pages 35-37); At eight o’clock, Hon. Members, I have to put it to the

Governor’s Hill estate – Road safety measures – Motion lost Independent scrutiny of the executive – Motion not made Hartford Homes: Bounty House, Main Road, Onchan – Motion not made Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete business Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1011 T126

Court whether you wish to sit or whether you do not. I have to The President: Hon. Members, that is straightforward get 22 votes to continue to sit, Hon. Members. I am aware that with 21 votes for, none against, in the Keys; 8 for, none there are three Members who have Government engagements against, in the Council. later this evening and wish to leave. Can I get 22 votes? I am unsure. Hon. Members, I am in your hands at this stage. (Interjections) I am inclined, Hon. Members, to try it and see if we can get the Manx Electric Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 Railway completed but I am in Mr Henderson’s hands. How Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report long do you require to put it before the Court, sir? Amended motion carried

Mr Henderson: The actual opening gambit is about five 23. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) minutes, Eaghtyrane… six minutes. (Interjections) to move:

The President: Hon. Members? That Tynwald notes with concern the Report laid before the Court at its April 2009 sitting ‘Independent The Chief Minister: I propose, Mr President, that we Inquiry Report Temporary Closure of the Manx Electric deal with this Item so we complete it, sir. Railway Line between Laxey and Ramsey during 2008’ and the observations made by the Report’s author, Mr Several Members: Hear, hear. K F Tomlinson MBE; and is of the opinion that the Department of Tourism and Leisure should make a public The President: Until we complete, sir? statement as soon as practicable addressing each of the issues raised in the report, and further, as soon as A Member: Yes. practicable, that it should present an up to date report to Tynwald of an action plan outlining how each of the The President: As you are aware, Chief Minister, I have deficiencies, observations and comments in the Tomlinson to put that as I will be challenged if I do not put it to the count, Report are to be addressed and improved upon, and that Hon. Members. So I have to put it to the vote. this must include a sound organisational health and safety We will put it to the vote, Hon. Members. Those who strategy addressing concerns from the Report, previous wish to continue to sit to finish this Item tonight. Those in reports and those of staff, and should include staff input favour, vote yes; those against, vote no. at all levels.

Electronic voting resulted as follows: The President: Mr Henderson, Item 23, sir.

In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 0 Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane, we are here as a result of an emergency Question I placed in the House of Keys in FOR AGAINST February of last year, following the Minister for Tourism’s Mr Quirk None statement to the February 2008 Tynwald, where Mr Earnshaw Mr Earnshaw Mr Brown announced the temporary closure of the Manx Electric Mr Crookall Railway between Laxey and Ramsey over a substantial part Mr Anderson of the summer season of that year, due, in the main, to Health Mrs Craine and Safety grounds. Luckily for us, the Chief Minister took Mr Bell on board my concerns and those of others. He rigorously Mr Quayle Mr Teare followed things up, not just with an investigation, but to Mr Cannan re-examine the situation to see if anything could be done to Mr Cregeen have had the situation retrieved. Thank goodness that was Mr Houghton the case, and I am grateful for that intervention. Mr Henderson The Tomlinson Report is the culmination of all that and Mr Malarkey I felt it a grave injustice just to be laid before this Court last Mr Braidwood Mr Corkish month and not debated. Many Hon. Members had views Mr Shimmin on this and felt very strongly about the issue, as did the Mr Cretney public of the Isle of Man. Crucially, the Report has drawn Mr Watterson many observations but there is no action plan to address Mr Gawne these observations, as it was not in Tomlinson’s remit… The Speaker but important issues that cannot be ignored, yet we have no statement from the Department as to how they are going In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0 to address the issues raised in the Report. It would be a FOR AGAINST travesty of justice indeed if it was not fully debated and the Mr Callister None Department put under public scrutiny but, most importantly, Mr Crowe the observations and conclusions drawn out of Tomlinson’s Mr Downie investigation need to have an action plan applied to them and Mrs Christian a report back to this place. This would demonstrate publicly Mr Lowey Mr Waft that the Department has properly addressed the necessary Mr Butt changes. We need to know what the follow-up from the Mr Turner Report is; otherwise, it has been a complete, huge waste of

Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete business Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried 1012 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day time, effort and taxpayers’ money. Government are in danger finger in as assertive a manner as I do, but it is plain for all of being accused of a whitewash if we do not have this. to see, nonetheless. What further bothered me was that I have been I am very happy to arrange a meeting with the current continually, over the years, raising with the Department and Minister with his staff and he can hear firsthand what they its subsequent Ministers that the staff felt they were being are worried about, why they feel demoralised, why they feel ignored and that their concerns were being ignored. Mr undervalued, why they are unhappy in their jobs. You can Cretney can well vouch for that as he has been at the brunt of pick it up reading between the lines of this Report. some of these questions regarding this and staff issues when One of the most urgent things that the Department needs he was Minister. This is clearly highlighted again and again to get to grips with – and certainly following what Tomlinson in the Report. In fact, the failure of the Department to consult has pointed out – is a proper over-arching Health and Safety with its own expert engineering and experienced staff has strategy and policy for the Department, and in particular the been highlighted as one of the three outstanding problems railways. What he has demonstrated is that different so-called in the Report. This I find quite staggering. experts have given different views: one saying it is okay to One of the most damning indictments of all is that, even run, one saying it has to be closed, and one contradicting itself with all the fuss I have been making – Questions in Tynwald in a matter of 12 months or so. No wonder the Minister’s head and Keys etc, and from other Hon. Members – not one was in a spin. What my motion is directing here is that the senior official or politician from the Department seemingly Department re-evaluate the Health and Safety system – not has ever bothered themselves to meet with the staff on the the railways or the issues that have been previously discussed, ground – the ones whom Tomlinson pays testament to for but the system of Health and Safety that is operated, and that keeping the MER going for as long as they have and ‘on a policies and communications are coherent that flow from staff shoestring’. Those are his words. He acknowledges their to the Minister and vice versa. My motion is not seeking a expertise and experience. further Health and Safety examination of the railways, far It is also clear from the Report that the Department, as a from it; it is seeking to address the flaws discovered by matter of urgency, should now do this and ensure the Health Tomlinson in the existing system. and Safety meetings, as mentioned in the Report, crucially I have never seen such a shambles, where the line was are taken seriously by management and that the issues raised supposed to have deteriorated in such a short time as to render by staff are taken up, followed through and appropriate it useless. I am afraid we need to audit the Health and Safety resolutions made, and with the staff agreement also put in. I advisers as a result of this so as to enable the Department have made this particular issue well known to Mr Earnshaw to move forward with a proper and appropriate Health and and well before he had to make this announcement. In fact, Safety strategy that not only management have confidence in but the staff especially, and importantly, public value for Mr Earnshaw admitted, under my public questioning, that he money. At the minute, staff are hanging their heads in shame would involve the staff more and they would have a meeting. at what has happened. How much have these experts cost Many Hon. Members will well recall my public insistence for the taxpayers over the years? Why have the staff never been full staff consultation and for them to be brought on board involved in making reports that reach the Minister and senior with any initiatives prior to all this. I then reported to the staff? Why haven’t the staff been involved in any case so that staff that the Minister had said all staff would be consulted you have your own assessments to start with, as Tomlinson and there would be a full staff meeting. But that meeting points out? never happened and, as far as I am concerned, Eaghtyrane, again I was made a complete fool out of, offering them Mr Karran: Point of order, Eaghtyrane. Are we talking false promises. I found out there had been no meeting and about a Mr Tomlinson? Why are we (Several Members: subsequently rang Mr Earnshaw at his Department. I was Hear, hear.) having to be so blunt? I know that usually you met with a cool response by way of explanation as to why are all having a go at me – the staff on the ground had not been met by management. Mr Earnshaw will well remember the phone call I made to The President: Okay, point is taken, Mr Karran. him as he was called away from a meeting to take the call. He explained that the staff would be spoken to and he was Mr Karran: I think you should be courteous to the happy that, at this stage, management had had a meeting person. and that would suffice. That was his version of bringing the staff on board and consultation. His staff, the ground Mr Earnshaw and another Member: Hear, hear. troops, were dumped, as far as I am concerned – the very thing that Tomlinson noted in his Report – and even when Mr Henderson: I am very courteous, Eaghtyrane. I his Department was falling about his ears, the Minister was am referring to how reports are generally referred to in not willing to listen. any debating format or public arena and I am certainly not Tomlinson’s comment about him having ‘lost confidence’ discourteous to Ken Tomlinson. I can tell the Hon. Member in his staff, which is another quote from the Report, is quite now I met at length with Ken Tomlinson, as he can see in staggering. Why is this? Why has that never been addressed? the Report, and I can say that he was excellent and his line But if this is how staff are treated, then it is little wonder of inquiry was good. Although, for those of you who know they have no confidence in him, or the system they work Ken, he can come over as a hard, cold, calculating person, within, at that time or since, or his senior team. I would call in fact he does care and his line of inquiry, I thought, was on the current Minister that this situation must, as a matter excellent. He took up options that I gave to him that can be of urgency, be reversed, if it has not already been done. It is seen in this Report, so I am grateful to the man for putting vital to have your organisation running as a team. That is the the… I suppose, Eaghtyrane, if anything, it is remiss of me story all the way through this Report, Eaghtyrane. Tomlinson not to thank him for his efforts at the outset, because he has has made that very, very clear. He has not quite pointed the done a thorough job.

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Eaghtyrane, back to the issue, we have a set of paid is two rails, isn’t it? There is a rail below and above and, of experts on site who have worked on the railways for course, with your main support strut in between. The bottom decades. They know every nut, bolt, sleeper, piece of ballast, rail and the support strut themselves were corroded – in rail, kink and bump on the lines, whether we are talking some cases, corroded right through. That is a sad indictment. electric railways or steam railways. It is the staff that have Imagine a train going over at the Bulgham. Just imagine a that requisite local expertise and experience that all the tram going over; just imagine it. It is a very sad indictment consultants put together could not match. Many of the staff that all these things are allowed to happen. who work on the railways have done so for many years, as I We have a Railways Inspectorate on Health and Safety have said, and they are completely loyal to the Department and so on, and of course, as it is well known, these people and deeply care for our railway heritage. All that seems to be were travelling on the tram and the tram was going well, but seen is that they are troublemakers, yet what they have been nobody ever got off at the danger areas and actually looked, saying for years, if anyone cares to examine, has all come to dug below the stones, to see the state of the rail from one year fruition, unfortunately. What has been clearly happening is to the next, and people who know their stuff would be able that when staff have been making concerns known to their to say, ‘That rail needs changing,’ or ‘That one will do for line managers, those concerns have been binned. That was another year,’ and so on, especially in the areas where they quite clear from Mr Earnshaw’s Answers to me last year, as are more exposed to the elements and also those areas that, of he claimed he did not have a clue as to what I was talking course, are less exposed – and also less exposed to the wear about, but wished me to supply him with any information. and tear we get on curves you do not get on the straights. That is a matter of Hansard. So all that information had been There is one other element, too: a very, very supportive filtered out from reaching the senior management team of the organisation – they do get political but they are supportive Department. This puts a pall over the middle-management – and they are the Manx Electric Railway Society. That structure of the Department, certainly in the railways. In organisation has always taken an interest in the operation of fact, it should be making some positions untenable, and if the Manx Electric Railway. They are the greatest supporters those managers have any common decency about them they of it outside the Department itself. They have warned should resign. the Department time and time again, told them, and their Eaghtyrane, my motion is straightforward enough. What messages and voices have just simply fallen on deaf ears. any Department should be doing is a matter of general course, What we need to do, Mr President, in this case, is start in any event. It is what you would expect following any showing that we listen and then react to what we listen to. It such report, requiring the Department to examine areas to is just like the debate that we have already had on Governor’s be addressed, work up what action is to be taken, evaluation Hill. A message has been put across. If it is taken up, we will upon completion of that action to measure its effectiveness, be pleased; if it is not, and a tragedy happens, then we will be and further actions to be taken, if required, and then report displeased, as will other Members of this Court. The whole back to this hon. place. It does not call for any extreme issue is the same here. Thank God, a serious accident did not measures or any expenditure. The motion is not seeking a happen before this was identified. further Health and Safety review of the line. That is already What I have to say in closing, Mr President, is this did in progress by way of the renewal programme. What this not happen over the time of Mr Earnshaw’s charge of that motion does do, in assessing the Tomlinson observations, is Department; this has happened over the best part of 20, 30, call for joined-up working and a system that everyone can possibly 40 years. It has. We know it has and, of course, what have faith in. This will, in essence, then address most of the we do know is that during the whole of that time there really Tomlinson observations. Pretty simple. has been very slender attention being paid to the elements of I beg to move to move, sir. the railway. Outside, on the Ramsey track, it goes for such a long way. It goes through some beautiful, picturesque and The President: Mr Houghton. rural countryside, but had more attention been paid to the actual state and infrastructure of the railway itself, then it Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. would not, I am quite sure, have been as costly as it has been I beg to second and I congratulate my hon. colleague to put matters right, as it is now. for the work he has put into this because he has been very, Thank you, sir. very closely following this matter. I have seen him at his desk for many hours, checking on various details, checking The President: Hon. Member, Mr Waft. the detailed Report from Mr Tomlinson and then bringing Mr Earnshaw, is it? Sorry, I cannot read the writing. forward this motion for debate. Of course, this is all about the Report that was laid before this Hon. Court last month Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. that, of course, once it has been laid before, yes, it can be I am going to move an amendment to this motion, but debated, but I am surprised, really, it was not put forward before I do, I just want to respond to one or two comments by the Department for debate, anyway, and that is the reason that have been made by the Members for North Douglas. why my hon. colleague was so incensed at that time the I will start with Mr Houghton because I think he has Report should have been debated once it had been brought made some valuable contributions there about the condition forward. of the rail, which was not satisfactory, and when I get to my Just in summary, Mr President, my colleague goes on speaking notes I will tell you a little bit more about that in about staff concerns that were ignored and the failure to a few moments. consult with those members of staff. This is a sad indictment, Certainly, he is absolutely right. I think this is something isn’t it? That is the main point here, because you think, ‘How that has happened. It has been a build-up over 30 or 40 years is it so wrong?’ How is it that some of these rails were rotten or more. Who knows? Nobody can know that, because a lot right up to the top rail? Because when you look at a rail, it of the rail in use is still original rail from the 1890s. A lot of

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried 1014 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day it was still good quality; it had stood up very well. It must the various steam and Manx Electric Railway railway stations have been very good-quality steel at the time but some of it and viewed the railway line at the Bungalow on Snaefell. clearly was not. I will talk more about that later, but I think Ahead of this, I had already met the Railways Engineer, who he has made some pertinent comments about the condition was an old school chum I had been friendly with for almost of the rail and the timescale that was involved. 50 years. I was looking forward to the working relationship His colleague, the Hon. Member, Mr Henderson… with him, but although we discussed a number of issues, he straight to the jugular in one of two things, so I just want was clearly looking forward to retirement. He was counting to put a little bit of balance to that because I think in Mr down the days and he told me so. Nothing wrong with that, Tomlinson’s Report, on page 29, under 8.5 – this refers to but it was disappointing to hear. Questions that I answered in either this place or another from These were early days in the Department for me, the Hon. Member – it says: Eaghtyrane, but certainly not everything I saw left me feeling comfortable, particularly the condition of the Snaefell ‘The Minister responded by saying he was unaware of the staff making Mountain Railway line and aspects of the Manx Electric problems known to management and invited the Hon. Member to let Railway. Around me, I could see all too clearly a lack of him have information regarding that so that they could be investigated. The Minister has since confirmed to me that he subsequently received investment and, I have to say, care. I recall questioning the no information from Mr Henderson. In the course of my inquiry, I met manager regarding the decayed state of rails and sleepers at with Mr Henderson and he also confirmed that he had not followed up the Bungalow on Snaefell, and received assurances there was on the Minister’s invitation.’ little to worry about. I was concerned at the shabby condition of the trackside There are only two conclusions I can make from that: shelters on the Manx Electric Railway, and I have got to say either Mr Henderson did not have any information, or he that was faded paintwork, broken and rotted timber on some could not be bothered bringing it to me. So I just wanted to of them, broken guttering, poor signage, things like that, scotch those comments that he has made straightaway. which indicated to me a lack of a maintenance programme. I also want to scotch claims that I had problems meeting There was considerable untidiness to even a casual observer. staff. I have never had any problems about meeting any of I did not make an issue at the time, but I was increasingly the staff on the railways and, once again, I would invite him uneasy and disappointed. These railways, Eaghtyrane, are a to give me examples, if he can, regarding that, because I am national treasure and a key element of the Island’s tourism. not aware of any. Confidence was already heading south. I am also advised that the whole argument about staff Ahead of the 2007 season commencing, and shortly after involvement in Health and Safety is totally spurious, because its commencement, I fruitlessly sought answers to many in my time we had a Transport Health and Safety Committee questions and sought action to put simple things right. What with staff representatives, which I think Mr Ball personally timetable existed for preventative maintenance? What was the chaired, and the conditions of the MER track were just not up-to-date position on trackwork? I got little or no response. raised. He informs me that this was because there was a denial Many problems had straightforward solutions: a bit of basic culture regarding the MER track. Everybody thought it was joinery and painting, spraying weeds growing between the in good enough condition. track. I have got to say I tried to get that done all the way I would like to move to my other comments, Eaghtyrane. through the 2007 season and I do not think it was done at I am grateful to the Hon. Member, Mr Henderson, for moving all. There was no action taken on spraying weeds between this Item, which gives me the opportunity to explain the the tracks during 2007. rationale behind my thoughts and actions in the early part of Another was constructing a new heritage-style shelter in 2008 and to provide some other background information. It , still not done. It was only a small thing that needed seems to me the main issues at the time were: why weren’t to be done. It would have cost a few hundred pounds, but the railway engineers engaged in the process; and from that did not happen. It was something I was wanting to do to some sources, why didn’t we disregard the professional support Laxey and Lonan Heritage, who were very positive, I engineer’s recommendation and open the railway, as planned, have to say, regarding the railways, and I did my very best to on 17th March 2007? In a nutshell, the first was a matter try and work with them on some of their projects. Too many of confidence, and the second a matter of safety for the issues of concern that I raised were brushed off with an ‘It’s travelling public. fine,’ ‘It’ll be alright’ or ‘It’s always like that’ approach. To properly explain the background, I need to take Hon. I received correspondence and questions from hon. Members to the beginning of 2007, when I was appointed colleagues in this Court today who may wish to contribute. Minister for Tourism and Leisure. In considering the roles I They drew my attention to the untidy state of the trackside, the would personally assume, I decided to take a leaf out of my shabbiness and the uncleanliness of carriages, poor signage predecessor’s book, who had had 10 years’ experience in the and poor communication of information to the public. job, and I decided to adopt the same direct responsibilities that Much of my unease was reinforced when the senior he had. One of these was the transport side of the Department management team and I travelled by rail to visit the Summit and it was a role I was to find interesting and I would enjoy Café at Snaefell, observing, as we passed along the line, during my time at Tourism. Like most new Ministers, I the many poles blistered by rust, lacking their protective set about meeting the teams I would be working with and weather caps, needing repainting or replacement. Whilst viewing their places of work. In my case, this involved the not in itself a great safety issue, this is not a great advert for Villa Marina, the Gaiety Theatre, the National Sports Centre our railways. and a number of other smaller related sites. Additionally, of Ultimately, perhaps too many questions were being asked course, there were the bus and railway sites, most of which I because, as soon as the railway opened for the 2007 season, visited within the first couple of months. This was undertaken out of the blue the Railways Manager resigned. Here was a in the company of the Railways Manager, with whom I visited man in the prime of his working life, in love with historic

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1015 T126 railways, the man with day-to-day responsibility apparently It also recommended a major work programme which needed throwing the towel in. I was, at that time, alarmed and to be undertaken prior to the 2008 season. wondered what I was uncovering. From my perspective, Eaghtyrane, the Snaefell report was Mr President, let me now talk about management. I am a key step in the chain of events for three reasons: firstly, it not an engineer, and let me be absolutely clear about that, represented a significant element in the undermining of my but I am a practical sort of chap and I also know something confidence in the Railway Engineer and his team; secondly, about management and have held managerial responsibilities it illustrated the chasm between modern Health and Safety for many years in my working life. By the spring of 2007, standards applicable to heritage railways in the adjacent with the railway now operational, it appeared clear to island and the standards to which we were operating; and me that, managerially, the daily operation of the railway, thirdly, despite the damning conclusions, CDL was taking regrettably, was just about rudderless. How long this state a pragmatic view and recommending at that point taking of affairs had existed, who knows? It seemed to me those mitigating measures rather than outright closure on safety nominally in managerial positions did not like asking or grounds. This latter point is particularly relevant, because instructing the team they were responsible for to carry out when you consider the later MER Report, which was still their tasks. In turn, those who should have been performing to come, just how much worse must the track have been the tasks lacked direction because they were not being told between Laxey and Ramsey than what they had found on what was expected. There are a lot of good employees on Snaefell? I found myself, Eaghtyrane, responsible for a our railways – railway running on a ledge up the steep side of a valley and onto a mountainside with a report of this awful nature in Mr Henderson: There are. my hands. To briefly conclude the impact of the pivotal Snaefell Mr Earnshaw: – but they were not, in my opinion, being issue, the decision was taken straightaway to put all possible managed or led. It was hard to identify documentation or resources into ensuring the report’s identified shortcomings evidence of routine maintenance planning. Too many of the were put into place as soon as the line closed for the season, assets were shabby or broken and we were well on the back in an effort to ensure its ability to open on time in spring foot. Tasks seemed to be performed on a reactionary basis 2008. After a momentous effort, it did. The report appeared and morale was low. to have generated the necessary stimulus, the workforce got Unsuccessful efforts were then made to recruit a new cracking, and I compliment them for the hard work that they Railway Manager and, as a temporary measure, John undertook over that winter. Kennaugh was asked to hold the rails until a permanent To the best of my knowledge, matters were then manager was recruited, and I am very pleased to see that John progressing in the right direction under the guidance of Kennaugh is in the Court with us today. John Kennaugh was John Kennaugh and with strong support from fully qualified transferred from the Finance Section of the Department and, railway engineers from our consultants, most notably Denis as far as I recall, came without any specialised engineering Grimshaw. Denis is a chartered engineer who, prior to knowledge. Eaghtyrane, I want to take this opportunity to becoming a consultant, had been Chief Engineer for Northern publicly praise John and thank him for his contribution over Ireland Railways and was later engaged on a contract basis this difficult period. He worked extremely hard, he showed by us to strengthen the engineering and management team. great commitment, did his best and remained unfailingly Now to the MER. As I explained at the February 2008 cheerful. He was a real pleasure to work with and got us sitting of this Hon. Court, as we approached the end of through the 2007 season. the 2007 operating season, I had ongoing concerns about During the season, a number of incidents occurred which the number of incidents, especially on the Manx Electric continued to add to my concerns. I am not convinced all Railway. At the same time, as I have explained, confidence in incidents have been documented in the past, but trains and the reassurances that everything was fine had been seriously trams are designed to stay on the tracks and too many now undermined by the Snaefell issue. Having discussed the seemed to be doing otherwise. Towards the end of September, matter with the senior management team, the decision was my disillusionment was complete when I received a condition taken to commission CDL to undertake a thorough track report on the Snaefell Mountain Railway. This seemed to survey on the MER and the Isle of Man Steam Railway, and have taken longer than it should to reach senior management we awaited the result. Workwise, I knew we were under and it landed on my desk around mid-September, just about pressure, but no indication was given to me of what was the time of a derailment at the Summit. around the corner with the Manx Electric Railway. The report alerted me to significant safety issues and its Easter was to come early in 2008 and the Manx Electric receipt was a pivotal moment. The report informed me that Railway was due to open for business on 17th March. Seven 13 per cent of the rails, 30 per cent of the sleepers and 73 per weeks beforehand, on 25th January, I was presented with the cent of the ballast, which formed the foundation of the lines, opinion of professional engineers, who had examined all our was in poor, bad or very bad condition. I am going to repeat railways in detail, that the Laxey to Ramsey section of the those: 13 per cent of the rails, 30 per cent of the sleepers – that line was not fit for purpose and not considered sufficiently is one in three – and 73 per cent of the ballast, which formed safe for public transport. This was unexpected by me and it the foundation of the lines, was in poor, bad or very bad was shocking news. I believed the investment put in place condition. The report also recommended weekly inspection during my predecessor’s time, and being carried on during of certain areas and a 5 mph to 7 mph speed limit over those mine, had been progressing satisfactorily. I had seen plenty areas for the remainder of the 2007 season. It drew attention of evidence personally to seriously doubt this, which left to the effect of electrolysis of joints caused by the theft of the me uncomfortable but, as I have said, I am not an engineer. copper rail bonds many years before, which had never been The presentation given provided a range of options but, in replaced and the absence of which had accelerated corrosion. view of the short timescale to the season opening, the only

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried 1016 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day realistic choice at that time was the unpalatable option of not and the decision was made in the interests of public safety, opening the Laxey to Ramsey section for 2008, pending its based on professional engineering advice. You all saw the proper repair. Furthermore, there was news that more work photographs. needed to be done on Douglas to Laxey before that section Would I have done things differently with the benefit of could open. hindsight? I believe you can nearly always do things better, Whilst, thankfully, the Steam Railway was considered but I cannot think of much I could change on this issue. satisfactory, the room for manoeuvre was limited and Mr Tomlinson’s Report highlights the chronic lack of the route chosen was that the Laxey-Ramsey line would investment over the years. Like our tourism industry of a few temporarily have to close. decades ago, it had been pretty well milked dry. Thoughts The additional repairs on the Douglas to Laxey section of serious investment came too late. If the railways are to were prioritised as we were only seven weeks away from enjoy a successful future, greater investment will need to opening, and working on the Snaefell line from the earlier be made. Many poles need repairing, overhead lines need report was going to continue thereafter, as the opening of the attention, bridges and ongoing track maintenance needs to Snaefell Mountain Railway was not scheduled until May. be taken into consideration. It is an asset that needs constant Mr President, to disregard a safety recommendation from feeding if we are to avoid further setbacks. We either want professional engineers was something I was not prepared it, or we do not. to contemplate. I had the ultimate responsibility for the I was possibly in the wrong place at the wrong time when travelling public. As Minister for the Department, provided I the bubble – which was this problem – burst. It was not act appropriately, I am supported and insured for the actions something of my choosing and the line deterioration did not I take. Should I stray outside that zone on matters such as happen overnight; it has happened over decades, as referred this, I would surely be judged reckless and I would be on to by my friend, the hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr my own. Should an accident occur when the Minister was Houghton. But these issues cannot be ducked. I was handed a in possession of information such as I had, and court action responsibility and responded. Were it to happen today, in the ensue, I would have been hung out to dry. present financial climate, it is an interesting rhetorical thought Eaghtyrane, I received this news on the Friday afternoon. to ponder whether my colleague, Mr Quayle, would get the I was a relatively inexperienced Minister faced with a difficult vote for finance. Times have changed in a year. problem. (Interjection) Fair comment. I had been told, when I Times have also changed in terms of safety standards. The was appointed by the Chief Minister, that he did not want any engineers at the railway yard had spent a working lifetime surprises, and in the circumstances I booked an appointment on an historic culture of a make-do-and-mend approach to with him for Monday to share the information and seek keep our railways running. The very survival of the railway some guidance from him. At no time did the Chief Minister may have been in jeopardy without their practical skills, and suggest I should ignore the engineer’s recommendation. He I think this should be recognised. They have probably had had been in my shoes, as Minister for Tourism, and knew the a career always chasing their tails, continually deprived of railways and their risks. I advised my own recommendation adequate funding. Little was ever available; the Isle of Man for handling the matter. This was discussed and I was told did not have the money at that time. I know the engineering to go and talk to my friend, the Treasury Minister, to see if team were experience and very committed to the Manx I could get some money to fix the problem. Electric Railway and I want to say now, Eaghtyrane, that The next day that is what I did. The Treasury Minister, I regret being critical. They, no doubt, have felt wounded in his usual understanding way, (Laughter) advised me by all this. Public transport, however, nowadays needs to I would get battered over this, and he was right. Efforts be defensible against 21st-century safety standards. Planet would, however, be made to identify a financial solution Earth is a different place, and what we did in the 1970s or and at no time did he suggest I should ignore the engineer’s the 1980s is no longer acceptable, even on slow-moving recommendation. He, too, had been in my shoes, as Minister vehicles such as our trams. for Tourism, and knew the railways and the risks. Last night I re-read the responses of my senior officers The decision taken was to advise John Kennaugh of at the time in responding to Mr Tomlinson’s Report. The the news, but it was to go no further. It seemed to me to be two main personalities were Mike Ball, the Director of courteous and right to advise my colleagues in Tynwald in Service Delivery, and Carol Glover, my Chief Executive an appropriate way as soon as possible, and the chosen route Officer. Their recollections are the same as mine. We were all was via a statement at the next sitting in February. working hard to change deep-rooted customs and practices Why, then, did we choose not to engage the engineers? while wrestling with major infrastructure problems, and the Firstly, they would have been shocked and ultra-defensive. exercise is ongoing with the Department of Tourism. Second was the issue of diminished confidence. I knew the I feel a lot was achieved during my short time with the Snaefell issue had already hurt them. Thirdly, there was Department and I thank them. I had a brief but rewarding the added potential of information leaking out, which I 18 months working together with them on our railways and was anxious to avoid, as I wished Hon. Members to be in buses section, and was disappointed not to have more time possession of this news first. The engineers were, in fact, to develop ideas we had for the future. Resurrection of the briefed on the morning my statement was delivered in Donegal trams was certainly on my to-do list, and I ran a Tynwald. I am informed their response, as anticipated, was couple of experiments, you will recall, with commuter trains the same as when they were advised of the Snaefell report: at TT time in 2007 and 2008. that they considered it would be alright to operate the line. Mr President, I trust that answers the two rhetorical Mr Houghton: What about the Lisbon tram? questions with which I began this statement. I did not want to have to close the Laxey to Ramsey section. I did so with Mr Earnshaw: Not a great success and I got a bit of stick great reluctance, but no other realistic choice was available from it, but it was worth a try.

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A lot of difficult issues were addressed and positive for the Laxey to Ramsey section safely to operate, what outcomes achieved. Major finance was obtained for a new choice did he have? He had no choice but to close it. To have tram shed at Laxey, which I think is now complete. The done otherwise would have put himself and the officers in little shelters along the line, to which I referred, are in good possible breach of the law. Ministers are given considerable condition and some have been adopted by schoolchildren, responsibility, but they are not above the law and we do not who care for them. An officer was appointed in 2007 to expect them to break it. In short, Mr President, I believe that, address Health and Safety issues. A Railways Manager was as a Minister and Hon. Member, he acted responsibly with appointed: Mr John Kennaugh. I put in train a process to due regard for public safety. recruit a chartered engineer as chief technical officer, and I I did, when I first heard the news about the closure of that understand that my successor, Mr Quayle, now has the benefit part of the railway, pen an e-mail to the Value for Money of his knowledge to call on. Last, but not least, Tynwald Committee for an investigation to take place at that time, kindly supported a motion of mine for £5 million to secure only to find that Mr Tomlinson was appointed and we had his the future of the Laxey to Ramsey line. This work is now Report, so the Value for Money Committee idea was certainly complete and I am pleased that our handsome trams are again overshadowed by Mr Tomlinson’s independent Report. I running along it, and much more safely, I hope. have read it, and I have great respect for Mr Tomlinson, as Mr President, I stand here today explaining what I did, an ex chief executive. The concern that I had when I read which is far more preferable than risking standing in the the opinion at the end of Mr Tomlinson’s Report was, well, Coroner’s Court explaining what I did not do. I faced a lot he was not bound by ministerial responsibility and hindsight of criticism at the time, but I believe I did the right things is a wonderful thing. for the right reasons, and I would invite any Hon. Member With regard to reporting back, I am concerned that we of this Court to stand up and say they would have acted are chasing our tails somewhat if we chase these things too differently. far. If we now get a Value for Money Committee report and I now, Mr President, wish to move an amendment to the some other report, I think the new Minister for Tourism motion before us, printed on the paper circulated to Hon. will have taken it all on board and surely will adhere to Members, and this reads: the problems that are there and get his team to work at it and find a resolution. I think the resolution is to be found. After the words ‘’That Tynwald notes’’ in line 1, to leave There is a great emotive concern with regard to the railway out the remaining words and add: ‘’the Independent and I certainly – a railway enthusiast in my own way – do Inquiry Report on the temporary closure of the Manx use the railways and my grandson accompanies me many Electric Railway line between Laxey and Ramsey during times on the MER, so I would like us to be safe and know 2008, laid before Tynwald at the April 2009 sitting, that everything is in order. That being said, public liability and the observations made by the Report’s author, is the first concern of everyone, especially when they are Mr KF Tomlinson MBE; and acknowledges that the Ministers. Department of Tourism and Leisure has and continues Thank you, Mr President. to take appropriate actions to address the issues raised in the Report’’. The President: Mr Quayle, Hon. Member.

The motion would therefore read: Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. I am happy to support the amendment from my colleague ‘That Tynwald notes the Independent Inquiry Report on and predecessor, Minister Earnshaw, because I recognise the temporary closure of the Manx Electric Railway line that, as a Minister, he did face a very challenging situation between Laxey and Ramsey during 2008, laid before and I believe he took the decision to close the section of the Tynwald at the April 2009 sitting, and the observations MER with a very heavy heart but, given the advice he had made by the Report’s author, Mr KF Tomlinson MBE; received from respected and qualified railway engineers, he and acknowledges that the Department of Tourism and obviously felt there was no other choice. Leisure has and continues to take appropriate actions to The Report rightly concludes the real cause of the address the issues raised in the Report.’ problems was a long-term chronic lack of investment, and that has been mentioned before. We know that the Island Thank you. suffered economically in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and even the 1980s and did not have the money to spend. As The President: Mr Waft, Hon. Member. prosperity developed, there has been opportunity to accelerate reinvestment, which really did start at the end of this decade, Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. but I have to say there is a huge amount of money required This all seems to make my motion superfluous, if I can which has been factored in to future years, and I do hope withdraw that, Mr President. Hon. Members will give the railways continuing support. I rise to second the amendment moved by the Hon. It is difficult to imagine the Isle of Man without the MER Member, Mr Earnshaw. and the Steam Railway. It is so much part of our heritage Having looked at the Report, I feel the criticism of him, and has been described as a jewel, and I do think that, with as the Minister for Tourism and Leisure, with regard to the the investment we have made so far, we have to carry on matter is unjustified. In the autumn of 2007 he was right our investment to preserve this unique system of railways to be concerned about the safety of the MER and right in and transport. The Department has, with its MER Renewal supporting his management team in bringing out expert Scheme, approved by Tynwald… That was delivered in two people to assess the state of the track. In January 2008, phases and it was completed within a very tight timescale and when those professionals told him it would be impossible on budget, and I think those involved within the Department

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried 1018 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day deserve our thanks for completing that within the timescale and will expect to receive, are carefully thought out and and within the budget. prioritised plans to ensure that we are achieving the standards I do believe the railways today are in a much better and and will not encounter, then, the nasty shocks that told us safer condition than they have been for many years, but as that we were in danger of failing. I mentioned, there will be ongoing investment required and With that, Mr President, I would like to reassure this the Department has been looking to accelerate some of the Court that much progress has been made, more needs to be spending to reprioritise into the areas where it is most needed. done, but we certainly have everything to look at and will The most important thing that perhaps the Department has continue to give that commitment. looked at from this MER closure issue is the importance of ensuring that the staff who are managing safety-critical The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. operations are both competent and qualified. Traditionally, the railway engineers are employed to do this and we have Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have been in here many years had experienced, skilled tradesmen rather than professional and I have to say the input from the former Minister for railway engineers. Tourism was amazing: it was the Chief Minister’s fault, he At this point, allow me to respond to the comment from did not do anything; it was the Treasury Minister’s fault, he Mr Henderson, the mover of this motion, when he mentioned did not do anything. (Interjection) The only thing he did not… about staff involvement in Health and Safety issues. I I am sorry, Eaghtyrane, we have gone through one of the do know that Mr Mike Ball, the Director of Leisure and biggest economic booms this country has ever experienced, Transport prior to this, was personally chairing the Transport and that just shows… Health and Safety Committee for over two years, and was What I am concerned about with this issue – and I think therefore involved on behalf of the Department and ensuring that we should support the hon. mover – is the fact that we liaison with various staff. have had to spend £5 million on it, we have been cornered In terms of the Public Transport Division, Mr President, into a position. It is not the staff’s fault; we had Ministers Hon. Members may be already aware that we are currently who were responsible. What we need is to get away from going through a significant transformation and there the jelly factor, where they ooze out and they do not get have been changes to the staffing structure which have pinned down for their responsibility, as far as this issue is been initiated to ensure we have the level of professional concerned. I know it is very difficult when we have a situation competence necessary to run the heritage railways and public where everybody, virtually, is in the executive, but the fact transport, such as the buses. We now have a new Director of is that I think that the hon. mover does deserve to have that Public Transport, Mr Ian Longworth, who arrived with us in independent assessment. I would like to know whether we early May, and also a Railways Chief Technical Officer, Mr actually got what we really needed, as far as our £5 million Peter Maddocks. Both of these are professionally qualified is concerned. That is £5 million that I cannot give to the Hon. and I think it is true to say we should not have had the CDL Member for Ayre for his DHSS or the other issues that need Report to alert us previously, when Mr Earnshaw was with to be addressed. the Department, to find the problems on the MER. We should Eaghtyrane, I believe that the situation is that I am not have been well-placed through the staffing to have identified blaming staff on this issue, but I am concerned about the the problems and identified the solutions. whole political structure. I am amazed by my colleague, The new Director of Public Transport has a wealth of the Member for Onchan, for his excuses as far as the other knowledge and experience. He has worked in the bus and Ministers are concerned in the past. I think it is important transport industry for over 35 years, 20 of which have been that, whilst the situation… and there is a good argument about specifically in the leisure sector, and he is a Chartered Fellow hindsight and I understand that very well. I do think that we of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport and was do need to learn about our procedures in order to make sure previously a chief examiner for the Certificate of Professional we are more effective as far as making sure that the decision- Competence examinations. making is right in the first place, and I do think that it would The new Railways Chief Technical Officer is a chartered do no harm to find out whether the large amount of money that engineer, with a wealth of railway experience, who has joined we were railroaded into spending on this project… Because us from the United Kingdom Rail Accident Investigation let’s be honest about it, we were railroaded into it. It was Branch. either spend that money or it had to be shut. Other options I do think, Hon. Members, the important thing is we have were not really addressed, so I do not think there is a problem seen the Report, we know the problems, but there have been in finding out whether the political decision-making was done substantial measures now taken to ensure that we should not on the right basis over the last several years, because what face the unwelcome surprises that faced my predecessor. I am concerned about – and this is only one of a number of I am grateful, too, to my friend and colleague and Member issues – is making sure that these decisions that are made are of the Department, Mr Graham Cregeen, who has undertaken made on the right basis. We see here today… As the Minister responsibilities delegated to him for public transport and of the time said, he happened to be holding the baby at the he has done a sterling amount of work involved in looking time when the problem developed. The fact of the matter is very closely at all aspects within transport and, again, I think how many other areas in Government are we going to end that shows that we are working with the staff to address the up, as he said, with the balloon going up? various issues. We are in here to create good political structures, to create Mr President, in conclusion, I am satisfied that we are the efficient and effective systems of Government, and now, working with a system now in place, employing people with just because it happens to be the Treasury Minister and the technical skills, the knowledge, experience and qualifications, Chief Minister’s fault, and not the Minister who happened to to ensure that we operate the railways to an appropriate safety have been there at the time when the balloon went up, that is standard for a low-speed heritage railway. What I will do, no excuse for no investigation. I think that is –

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Mr Earnshaw: Point of clarification, Mr President. I can do for the future. I would hate to see that he was taken have not said it is anybody else’s fault in here. That is just off that very important job to deal with an inquiry. not true. I would invite Members to come down. You have all had an invite to come and have a look at the track. Take advantage Mr Cannan: That is not a point of order. of that, see what is going on, and I hope you will appreciate the work that we have got to do in the future. There is a Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, he was explaining the fact that considerable amount of work to do in the Transport Division, stuff was not done in the Chief Minister’s time or in the time and I hope people will appreciate that, in the coming years, of the Treasury Minister. That, to me, is making an excuse. we have got a lot of difficult tasks to try and address. Eaghtyrane, I know it is late in the debate today, but I do think the point is that we cannot afford the luxury of saying Two Members: Hear, hear. that political decision-making needs to be concentrated. I think that is what the Hon. Member for North Douglas is The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. concerned about, and I think that issue needs to be seriously taken on board, not a witch-hunt against the staff, but the Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. situation of ministerial responsibility, ministerial liability and I really do think the Court again today is tilting at responsibility, and I do think that we need to know, because windmills that are not there. If you look at the resolution that we ended up having to find £5 million in a crisis situation is before you, it is straightforward. We set up an independent that should not have been there in the first place. inquiry; the independent inquiry has made its Report. All this resolution is saying is will the Minister of the day tell The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member. us how he is going to address the concerns and observations of that independent man who has made the Report. It is not Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. asking for the ex-Minister’s head on a plate! It is not asking As one of the Members who was a bit critical before for a history lesson of how we got there. (Mr Henderson: joining the Department, when I looked at the £5 million I was Exactly!) We all know what we got… concerned, and even when I was asked to join the Department Let me tell you, as someone who was involved in tourism I said to the then Minister, Mr Earnshaw, that if it was me I for a long time… never directly involved with transport, would have just done a single track to Ramsey, saved some but I can assure you the Minister of the day fought long of the money and invested it into other things. and hard with successive Treasuries to get finance for the I think what some Members need to realise is that, yes, it infrastructure, and that was invested not at the whim of is heritage and it was probably saved many years ago because the Member in charge of transport, but at the behest of the of the lack of interest when they closed down some of the technical advice that we were receiving. The priorities were lines. Yes, we still kept it, because we did not invest, but when not dictated by the politicians but by the professional advice we were keeping it, it still had lack of investment and it was of the people who were in the Department. No ifs, no buts; firefighting. I think if it had not been for the IRIS pipeline, that is the nth degree of it. the Steam Railway could have been in the same situation. It Now, I am going backwards. We have got a resolution has been crisis management. Things have dropped off and before us. We set up an independent inquiry. I think we owe it has been covered over and they have run. it to Mr Tomlinson to say, ‘Thank you for your inquiry.’ I Any of the staff, with all their years of experience, would think it was a very balanced, reasonable inquiry. (Several they have signed a piece of paper to say that they would Members: Hear, hear.) It really was, you know, one of the have been responsible if something had gone wrong? That better ones, and, as someone who works with Mr Tomlinson is where the Minister has to go and say that, on the advice now, that does not surprise me. So what is wrong with saying that he was given, you have to act. Nobody else is. You have to the present Minister, ‘Bring your staff along with you, got the same on the TT. If somebody says it is not safe, who the present staff that you are working with. You have now is going to overrule that and, if an incident happens, going appointed highly-qualified technical people to advise you. to stand up in court? Listen to them. Take your man on the…’ It does no harm at all to talk to people. You do not always, at the end of the day, Mr Quirk: That is when people get killed. come to the ministerial responsibility that was mentioned before. Of course there is a ministerial responsibility. After Mr Cregeen: The Hon. Member says £5 million. It is £5 you have listened to the advice of people, there are sometimes million. Everywhere that you look you could say you could very awkward choices that you have got to make, but the give it to the DHSS, but then you would have nothing else reality is it still does not stop you from talking. Advice is but the hospital. You would have no infrastructure, you would about advice, and you take… have nothing for visitors to come on. The Ministers judge it on a daily basis, I suggest, the advice that is given to them, sometimes conflicting. This Mr Houghton: At least we would have a hyperbaric is not an instant where something new has happened and chamber. occurred and the Minister has got to make a decision that perhaps one would not like. I have no difficulty with the Mr Cregeen: You would have a hyperbaric chamber, but Minister making those decisions and I have no difficulty with the whole of the Transport Division has had lack of investment the Minister then applying for finance to resolve it. What I over many years. The maintenance programmes… We are am interested in tonight is this resolution. That is why I am hoping that we can actually… We have got a new Director going to support the resolution, because all it asks for is a of Transport who, to give him his due, has hit the ground report on how we are proceeding now with the light of that running and is coming up with some good ideas for what we Report behind us. Nobody… The executive should not really

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried 1020 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day be resisting it, because I think it will strengthen their hand. It The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. will strengthen the Department’s way in which it conducts its I would just like to bring Members back to the basis of business with its workforce; of that I am quite sure. the Report. When I said that I would initiate an investigation, I am sure the Minister is keen to have good working it was to find out what had happened and what had gone relationships with all levels of the staff, not just the very wrong, if anything had gone wrong, and that is what the top people but at all levels. This system we run, the railway Report from Ken Tomlinson does. I think he was extremely system, depends very largely on goodwill with the staff. They straightforward. He clearly did not take prisoners when it was are our ears, they are our eyes; they are the frontline troops. not necessary. He made it absolutely clear what the situation I honestly cannot believe that we are getting ourselves onto was, and that Report, which I offered to do because Members them and us and we are judging. It is not judgemental. We had raised questions about it, which I could have just ignored, have got an independent Report, we should follow the advice, answered questions and let it go… I said we would instigate and I would urge the Minister to say ‘Yes, we will report an independent Report and that would be published, and that back’. I do not care what the timescale is, but report back, happened. That is all that was offered to Members, clearly if you like, at the end of the summer, after you have had a because Members were interested in what went wrong. season of the new operation being put into place. We are now moving on to say, ‘Well, that went wrong, But I do think we should take recognition… You cannot and what have you now done?’ I am sorry, the Minister did dine à la carte off an independent Report. You accept the respond, and you have to recognise that only recently – and Report, in my view, and then adopt it and see where we go I think it is weeks – they have now appointed a Director of from there. I honestly do believe the resolution is worthy of Public Transport, a person with qualifications, who is able it and that is why I will be supporting the resolution. to start to get into the real depth of this. Some actions were taken – very small, in terms of trying to see how we could deal The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian. with it, but in fairness… And the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Christian, mentioned the point about the situation with Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. the Department at the moment. We have got an Acting Chief I think that I am on the horns of a dilemma with these Executive who is also the Chief Executive of the Department two motions, the original and the amendment. of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, and we are trying to When I read the motion, as tabled, I had some concerns that get resolved that area. We have been very conscious that one this Department, we know, is under pressure at the moment of the problems that we have had in recent times has been and this will be another burden upon that Department, and a lack of a person with the qualifications to be the Director I thought, when I saw the amendment being proposed, that of Public Transport. here the Department had an opportunity to tell us what it was The question I would ask is: what do Members want going to do (Mr Henderson and another Member: Hear, in the Report? The responsibility lies with the Minister, as hear.) without a formal report having to be submitted. So I with every Department you are all in, to get on with the have to say I was extremely disappointed when the motion was put that it gave the history leading up to the time of the job of making sure that whatever their responsibilities are Report but absolutely no information to back up the statement are carried out properly. And I am sorry, I think Tynwald is that Tynwald acknowledges that the Department of Tourism getting carried away with the point that a Report was done. and Leisure has, and continues, to take appropriate actions That was an investigatory Report into what went wrong, and to address the issues raised in the Report. That was a bald from that there will be lessons learned to put things right. statement with absolutely no backing. The Minister has made it clear they are progressing it, they So then, when the Minister got to his feet, I was hoping have taken some actions. The big step is the new Director of here we will have something that will encourage us to Public Transport. Now Tynwald is saying, ‘And let’s have support the amendment by way of an analysis of what the another report.’ recommendations in the Report are and what indeed the With the greatest respect, Mr President, you can have as Department are doing about it. Whilst the Minister has said many reports as you like. What we want to do is get on with a lot of money has been spent – and, indeed, we know and the job, and the Minister has said he is getting on with the job. hope that it has been spent, because what was the purpose I would just ask Members, whereas it might be very easy to of it all if it has not? – we have little more than that, except say, ‘Well, let’s latch onto the motion,’ that motion from the perhaps an allusion to the fact that there may be some staff Hon. Member for Douglas North… and do not blame him discussions going on and that there are new people in post for saying ‘I want to debate the issue’, but the motion goes and so on. I am really not sure that we have enough, Mr further than that. It asks for all sorts. It talks about all the President, by way of explanation, to really fundamentally different issues that are in there, which quite clearly a new underpin the amendment and avoid the motion. So I think Director of Public Transport is there to do. We have all sorts that we may still be in a position to say that, to really get at of reporting systems that come back to Tynwald – service what the Department intends to do with regard to that Report, plans, policy reports, all sorts of things – and now Members we will need them to come back with a statement. are saying, ‘Let’s have another report about this situation.’ The situation was rectified, in terms that the railway had to The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. have a major investment. That was done. Tynwald Court approved that very quickly and prior to the investigation Mr Cannan: All I would say, Mr President, is common being undertaken. sense is a scarce commodity in this Chamber, but the common Ken Tomlinson’s Report, I believe, is quite straightforward. sense from the Hon. Member of the Legislative Council, Mr It lays everything out, no punches held. You have had the Lowey, is worth following tonight. responses. The former Minister has explained the situation. The present Minister is saying we are getting on with the The President: Chief Minister. job. We have now got a new Director of Public Transport

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1021 T126 there. For goodness’ sake, let the Department get on with its I am not sure where to start on this, because there has been job and get this issue of the railway sorted out, and if it is a lot of input and a lot of very good input, actually, and from appropriate, if Members want to get further information, I a lot of different directions as well. (Mr Houghton: Hear, am absolutely sure that the Minister, if you want, could make hear.) I have to say this does not very often happen. It might a statement or whatever, but you are going to start people only be the second or third time in my 10 years here, but I sat round tables, writing a report again, when they are under have to fully subscribe to the views of the Hon. Member of pressure just to keep these things going. the Legislative Council, Mrs Christian. She is absolutely spot- I would just say to Hon. Members, for goodness’ sake, on with what she said. My motion is all about what happens the Department has got responsibilities. Let it get on with next. That is what we need to do, and the Hon. Member is its job, let it do what it is charged to do as a Department of quite right, the Department is virtually silent on the matter, Government, and accept that the Minister is absolutely clear even with the chance afforded by this debate. I was actually about saying we are going to move forward to resolve some hoping, Eaghtyrane – and I agree with the Hon. Member, of the other issues. They are management issues. They are Mrs Christian – that we would have some sort of input with not operational issues in terms of the track. It is actually the regard to which bits were addressed. management of the railways and trying to take that forward. One thing is for sure, the Report does not ask for a director I would just urge Hon. Members not to support the issue on of railways and heritage, or whatever, that everyone has been the main agenda. trumpeting as the saviour of all things good and dispense I hear what Mr Lowey has said. It all sounds very good with all things evil etc. Ken Tomlinson has not asked for and I know Eddie, the Hon. Member of Council, very well. that. He has made some common-sense observations, and The thing is, the amendment to the motion says, ‘Look, the the problem I had, and why we are here with my motion, is Department has accepted it. Let’s get on with the job and that he left them hanging there. He did not actually draw a let’s make sure that we move forward,’ and I would hope full conclusion, as I did in my opening gambit, and he did not Members would accept that, Mr President. actually, really, slice the Minister up, as the Minister seems to think. There is a bit of ministerial sensitivity about this, The President: Mr Watterson, Hon. Member. from not just Mr Earnshaw but others. Mr Tomlinson has played a sly game here. He has made the observations and Mr Watterson: Mr President, I will be brief; I am not a left it. His very last point in the whole Report supports Mr waffler. I want to address – Earnshaw fully and I would take on board what Mr Tomlinson said there with that final comment. The Chief Minister: Do you mean I am? (Laughter) But there are observations that need addressing and I think the trouble that we went to get this Report… and it is again Mr Watterson: Mr President, I would apologise to the down to my emergency Question and the fact that the Chief Chief Minister if he thought that was the implication. It most Minister picked up on it. We have a Report that does make certainly was not. I was not implying that he was a waffler. some very serious observations. There is a lot there to take on board. One of the critical things is the proper organisational Mr Karran: You can still get a job! (Laughter) teamwork, top to bottom, acknowledging the staff top to bottom, getting the right information through. As I have Mr Watterson: The Chief Minister said that all the Report illustrated, the right information is not getting through and was there for is for what went wrong. Well, what use is that we are still getting that message from even the new Minister without what happens next? (Mr Karran: Absolutely.) to an extent, and that is what a lot of the Tomlinson Report This is a politically sensitive issue. It has appeared here is talking about. month after month. It has finally come to a head with this What I would like to see, Eaghtyrane… and it is not debate and I would think that the resolution, as put, will incumbent on the Department to supply us with a statement stem questions over the next weeks and months asking for in a few months’ time. I deliberately left off a timescale on progress reports, asking for what has happened, asking why my motion, knowing full well that the Department is under this has happened, why that has not happened. Everything pressure at the minute. What I was hoping for is a statement that comes across the MER for the next few months is going today with Mr Quayle’s input, saying, yes, these are the to be looked at very closely. Tynwald understands, I think, points in Mr Tomlinson’s Report at chapter etc, the numerical that this is politically sensitive. It has come up and it just denotations where he has made serious observations, and seeks those further assurances, I think, that the job is being this is what we are doing about these. We have not had that. done properly by the new Minister, that this is being looked I have given the Department the chance to go away, have a at and is getting the right sort of attention. look at them and come back and say something to us. I am The resolution, as I read it, does give some sensible not wanting a tome, Eaghtyrane, and my motion does not call outputs that will provide the assurances that I think Tynwald for a tome. I am not asking for people to sit round a table rightly asks for. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) On that basis, and write masses of reports; far from it. What I am saying I would urge Members to support the motion that is written, is come back and tell us how you have addressed what Mr rather than the bland, innocuous, commits-us-to-nothing Tomlinson said in the first place. How are you going to pull amendment by the Minister. your Health and Safety strategy together, where he has clearly reported… and that was quite wrong of Mr Earnshaw, really, Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. and Mr Quayle, to make mention to the issue. Tomlinson has clearly indicated in that Report and The President: Mr Henderson to reply. referenced the fact that there was staff frustration within those Health and Safety Committee meetings, where things were Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. not recorded properly in the minutes and he said he could

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report Amended motion carried 1022 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 Orders of the Day side with them to an extent with regard to their frustrations. The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment carries in Those are his words, Hon. Members, not mine. They are the Keys, 13 votes for, 7 against. in there and you can read that for yourself. Both Ministers have come back and said, ‘Mr Ball was heading that up, In the Council – Ayes 4, Noes 4 this was happening, everything’s cool.’ Everything is not cool and we want the Department to say, ‘Well, actually, FOR AGAINST here is a little bit of what we have done now, here is how Mr Callister Mr Downie Mr Crowe Mrs Christian we are addressing those Health and Safety meetings, here Mr Waft Mr Lowey is how we are recording the minutes, and here is how we Mr Turner Mr Butt are addressing the staff concerned and progressing them up through the chain of command,’ so that the Minister, in the The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, there are future, does not have to say, when he is asked in Tynwald or 4 votes for, 4 votes against. Hon. Members, the casting vote Keys, ‘I don’t know anything about this, you have to supply goes with the Keys and therefore the amendment carries. me with the information.’ Senior staff should never be in Hon. Members, I now put to you the motion, as amended. that position. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Hon. Members, if you look at the amendment which Mr A division is called on the amended motion. You may vote. Earnshaw moved, it basically knocks the legs out under what I was seeking, as Mr Lowey has observed, Mrs Christian has A division was called for and electronic voting resulted observed and Mr Watterson has observed, so I know I am on as follows: the right lines. As I say, I am not asking for the earth here; I am asking for a little common sense. Tourism: come back and In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 3 tell us how you have addressed the three principal Tomlinson principles, as outlined towards the end of the Report. That FOR AGAINST is all; a couple of pages would do it. The amendment, Hon. Mr Quirk Mr Karran Mr Earnshaw Mr Houghton Members, does not go anywhere. What it says is: Mr Brown Mr Henderson Mr Crookall ‘… and continues to take appropriate actions to address the issues Mr Anderson raised in the Report…’ Mrs Craine Mr Bell but we do not know what they are and we are never likely Mr Quayle to unless we have some sort of report back, and that is all, Mr Cannan basically, I am after: a report back that tells us what they Mr Cregeen Mr Malarkey have done and addresses the Health and Safety system – not Mr Braidwood the state of anything, but the system they use so that the Mr Corkish staff at the bottom, when they do their RIDOR reports and Mr Shimmin others, they are sent up to where they should be, not as we Mr Watterson have seen. You have heard the confusion. We need a bit of Mr Gawne balance in it. The Speaker Eaghtyrane, I beg to move. The Speaker: Mr President, the motion, as amended, The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to carries in the Keys, 17 votes for, 3 against. the Court is that printed at Item 23 on the Order Paper and to In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1 that, Hon. Members, you have got the amendment circulated to you in the name of the Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw. FOR AGAINST Hon. Members, I put to you, first, the amendment in the Mr Callister Mr Lowey name of the Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw. Those in favour, Mr Crowe please say aye, against, no. The ayes have it. Mr Downie Mrs Christian Mr Waft A division was called for and electronic voting resulted Mr Butt as follows: Mr Turner

In the Keys – Ayes 13, Noes 7 The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, it carries with 7 votes for, 1 vote being against. Hon. Members, the FOR AGAINST amended motion therefore carries. Mr Quirk Mr Karran Mr Earnshaw Mr Cannan Mr Brown Mr Houghton Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mr Anderson Mr Braidwood Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 Mrs Craine Mr Watterson Motion not made Mr Bell The Speaker Mr Quayle 25. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Waft) to move: Mr Cregeen Mr Malarkey Mr Corkish That Tynwald notes the Independent Inquiry Report on Mr Shimmin Temporary Closure of the Manx Electric Railway Line Mr Gawne between Laxey and Ramsey during 2008, laid before

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Addressing concerns of Independent Inquiry Report – Amended motion carried Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Motion not made Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 19th MAY 2009 1023 T126

Tynwald at the April 2009 sitting, and agrees that the speech prepared, which was prepared last time. I am unaware action taken was appropriate in the circumstances, based that there has been any media activity as far as that issue is on the information provided. concerned, or the issue of Item 24, and the reason that that has been withdrawn is that I have decided that I cannot afford the The President: Hon. Members, as we are working our risk of ending up with a committee that will end up sitting on way through the Order Paper, Mr Karran has withdrawn Item it for the next two years and no changes on a most important 24, which leaves me with the Item at 25 which I understand issue. So I have, on reflection, taken the decision – now Mr Waft will not want to move, so that, in fact, is also withdrawn, as is Mr Karran’s Item 26. The President: Mr Karran, please sit down.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think it is important. We have had statements made undermining my integrity as a Member Procedural of this Hon. Court, and I think it is important that the reason… He has asked for the reasons why and I am happy to give The President: The Treasury Minister wishes to him the reasons why. comment. The President: Hon. Member – The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): I do not want to hold up the proceedings in any way at all, but you quickly Mr Karran: I intend – passed over, a little while ago, the fact that Items 24 and 26 are being withdrawn at this stage. I just would like your The President: Hon. Member, you may as well sit down observations on this procedure that seems to be happening because, if it happens again, reasons will be given in this more and more regularly, Mr President. (A Member: Court. It is quite straightforward. It does not cause me a Hear, hear.) Items are appearing on the Agenda and getting problem at all. considerable publicity in the media prior to Tynwald. Hon. Members, in many cases, are spending time researching the Mr Karran: I am happy to give reasons now, issue at hand and preparing speeches, perhaps, for it. In other Eaghtyrane. cases, officers’ time is taken up also perhaps to research it if it impacts on a Department. And yet when we come to the The President: Hon. Member – event itself, Tynwald, we simply get notified it is not being moved, without any explanation whatsoever. I think, out of Mr Karran: The reason why Item 24 is being withdrawn courtesy to Hon. Members for the work that sometimes is put – into these items, Mr President, Members deserve at least the courtesy of an explanation as to why these items are being The President: Hon. Member! withdrawn so at least we have some understanding of the background to it. Mr Karran: – as a Private Member’s Bill…

The President: Thank you, Mr Bell. The President: You have already given your reason. I take the point entirely and I am aware that on each of the last three months motions have been on the Order Paper Mr Karran: No, I have not! which have been withdrawn. I will certainly take on board the position about having to give reasons in this Court as The President: Hon. Member, we have completed our to why it is being withdrawn and pick that up, but I have Order Paper for today, and in that case, having dealt with all already taken the action of saying Members must be sure the Items on the Order Paper, the Council will now withdraw when they put a motion on the Order Paper that, in fact, it and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as Mr is going to stick. Speaker may wish to put before the House. Mr Callister. The Council withdrew. Mr Callister: I just wonder, Mr President, if this matter should be passed to the Tynwald Standing Orders Committee.

The President: That could very well be. Mr Karran. House of Keys

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I could go on with Item 26, if The Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will now stand Hon. Members want. (Interjections and laughter) I am quite adjourned until Tuesday, 26th May at 10 o’clock in our own happy to do so, but after talking to the Minister for Local Chamber. Government, he assures me that he is still debating this issue, as far as the Hartford Homes development. There is a The House adjourned at 9.10 p.m.

Temporary closure of Laxey-Ramsey MER line 2008 – Motion not made Procedural House of Keys