Tuesday Volume 493 9 June 2009 No. 87

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 9 June 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 633 9 JUNE 2009 634

time not only for Lloyds, but across the financial services House of Commons sector. The question of the number of people employed by Lloyds is obviously a commercial matter for the Tuesday 9 June 2009 company itself, but I am sure that Members in all parts of the House who have constituents who are affected will want to make sure that they are treated as decently The House met at half-past Two o’clock as possible.

Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): How can the PRAYERS Treasury properly promote a savings culture when it is led by a Chancellor who last week was scheduled to be [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] sacked? [HON.MEMBERS: “Where is he?”] If the Prime Minister does not have any confidence in the head of the Treasury, why should the rest of us?

Oral Answers to Questions Kitty Ussher: Well, I am delighted to be able to report to the House that the Chancellor is currently at ECOFIN fighting for this Government’s interests, and in particular ensuring that the UK’s interests are represented as the TREASURY European Community discusses the de Larosière report, which is entirely relevant to the City of London as it The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— deals with the European supervisory framework. I think that that is exactly the right thing for the Chancellor of Savings the Exchequer to be doing, and it is in direct contrast to the policies of the Opposition, which are to reduce the influence of our country in Europe by leaving the 2. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): What his most European People’s Party and refusing to engage. recent estimate is of the percentage of household disposable income that is saved. [278505] Mr. James Plaskitt (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I welcome my hon. Friend back to the Treasury; it is The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kitty Ussher): nice to see her in the team again. The latest gross household savings ratio is for the fourth As my hon. Friend will know, the savings ratio tends quarter of 2008 and it shows that 4.8 per cent. of total to be geared to what is happening to house prices, so it household resources were saved. is no surprise that now that we are seeing a house price deflation there is a recovery in household savings. At a Bob Spink: Families saving for the future are under time of low inflation, savers will be looking for good serious pressure, especially those with disabled children, deals, and I welcome the extension of the individual as they come under particular pressure when the disabled savings account scheme in the Budget and particularly child reaches 18, so saving is very important for them. the extension of savings opportunities for those over 50. What have the Government done to help those families? Will she and the Treasury team continue to look at I ask that because some good Government initiatives some targeted further developments of the ISA scheme that were introduced in the Budget seem to have got lost to assist those who are now seeking to save in new ways? in the general credit crunch debate. Kitty Ussher: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention Kitty Ussher: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for to this point. People over 50 will be able to save £10,200 raising this point, because the Government announced in their ISA from October this year, of which £5,100 in this year’s Budget that we will contribute an additional can be saved in cash. We know that this will be particularly £100 a year to the child trust fund accounts of all welcome as savers seek better returns on their assets. It disabled children, with the most severely disabled receiving is, of course, a competitive market out there, so I urge £200. We are doing that because, as he mentioned, we anybody who has been adversely affected by the necessary recognise the particular issues that face disabled children reduction in interest rates to have a look at the comparator as they reach maturity. They can, of course, control tables available on the Financial Services Authority their trust fund assets when they turn 18. website.

John McFall (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Can the There will certainly be a reduction in savings from Minister tell me why anyone should save at this time, household income in the Cheltenham and Gloucester bearing in mind that the return they get on any savings area today, following the peremptory announcement by is either nil or minimal? Is she not concerned, as I and Lloyds of the loss of 1,600 Cheltenham & Gloucester many other Members on both sides of the House are, jobs. Is it not the case that Lloyds has betrayed any about the situation of the elderly, who look to the regard for the dignity of people and their employment, income from their savings to provide them with a sensible and will the Minister join me in writing to the Cheltenham standard of living? What are the Government doing & Gloucester in order to ensure that people who are to about those who rely to a large extent on their savings to be made unemployed are treated properly? supplement any pension or other modest or low income?

Kitty Ussher: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right Kitty Ussher: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman to raise this point, and we obviously hope that people was listening, but I just explained one thing that we are will be treated with decency in what is a very difficult doing for the over-50s to ensure that they can get a 635 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 636 better return on their savings—we have increased the continue to ensure that lending is available in the financial limits up to which they can save tax-free in ISAs. This system, be it lending for people who want mortgages or Government’s policy is to promote saving across the lending to business, which is vital. Well over £50 billion whole of a person’s lifetime, which is why we introduced of additional lending has been committed this year, child trust funds—I am delighted that three quarters of which should make a difference in the future. The parents take those up for their children; we, of course, Government need to keep taking actions that will make open them for the remaining quarter. It is also why we a real difference in helping people and businesses introduced and are expanding the ISA allowances, why through these difficult economic times, rather than leave the savings gateway will come on board from next year people to their own devices, as the Conservative party and why we continue to give advantageous tax relief to would do. people saving for their pensions. Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): Can the Bradford & Bingley (Bonds) Minister confirm that he is about to appoint a valuer for the assets in Bradford & Bingley and that the valuer 3. Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What will be able to act with complete independence from the representations United Kingdom Financial Investments views of Ministers in valuing those assets? Can he also has received on the cessation of interest payments on confirm that the valuer will be free to offer the same Bradford & Bingley’s11.625 per cent. perpetual subordinated deal to bondholders and shareholders in Bradford & bonds. [278506] Bingley as the preferential deal offered to the same groups of people in respect of Northern Rock? The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): The Treasury and UKFI receive a wide range of Ian Pearson: I can indeed confirm that the Government representations on issues relating to banks in receipt of will appoint a valuer shortly. We hope to be able to do public funds. It is not the Government’s practice to that before the recess, and a public appointments process provide details of all such representations. is going on at the moment. The hon. Lady will be aware of the powers in the Banking Act 2009 and the role of Mr. Hollobone: Bradford & Bingley has announced the valuer—they have a remit to act independently. The that it is going to default on the interest payments on valuer’s decisions will undoubtedly be a matter for the these bonds. When it made that announcement the valuer, acting in accordance with his or her remit and capital value of the bonds fell, so many people who existing legislation. have invested in these securities for their retirement income have lost out on both interest and capital. Given Mr. Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry, North-West) (Lab): that Bradford & Bingley is effectively a Government-owned I congratulate my hon. Friend on the development at institution, does this not suggest that the Government Lloyds. May I ask him to look further at the form of are prioritising getting their money back ahead of their recapitalisation executed there—namely the reduction moral and legal obligation to bondholders? in high interest rate preference shares for normal equity—to see whether or not he could consider, in the case of Ian Pearson: This was a decision for the Bradford & Bradford & Bingley and others, using high-yielding Bingley board to make, judged against the objectives it bonds too? They could be repaid and therefore make it had in its business plan. The hon. Gentleman will be much easier, in terms of bank liquidity, to promote the aware that the statutory debt owed to the Financial very increase in borrowing that we seek. Services Compensation Scheme is about £14 billion, and the Treasury is owed about £4 billion. He will also Ian Pearson: My hon. Friend has a great deal of be aware of the normal creditor hierarchy, and I believe expertise in these matters, and I always listen with that it is fair that the FSCS and the Treasury should be interest to what he says. Lloyds has made a commercial repaid ahead of subordinated liabilities. Furthermore, decision about wanting to repay the preference shares, he will be aware that in such circumstances the 11.625 per and it is right to refer to the vital importance of liquidity cent. rate of interest should have given people who were in the financial system. As always, the Government will taking advantage of these bonds some sort of clue that keep these matters under review. they were making a reasonably risky investment and that they would not necessarily be ahead of others who Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West) (Con): were making less risky investments. Does the Minister accept that it is essential that United Kingdom Financial Investments should be seen to have Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ genuine operational independence? Will the Government Co-op): Yesterday, we saw that Lloyds TSB was able to therefore take early action to put that body on a proper pay back to the taxpayer a net £2.3 billion, and the statutory footing? British Bankers Association today reports that bank lending to small businesses has increased over the past Ian Pearson: We have made a number of announcements month. Although there is a long way to go, what do with regard to UKFI, and as the hon. Gentleman those developments tell us about the effectiveness of the knows, it operates on an arm’s length basis. It is right Government’s strategy towards the banks? that Bradford & Bingley and other banks that have received Government funds and involve UKFI in a Ian Pearson: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the supervisory management role should act on a commercial announcement made yesterday by Lloyds Banking Group. basis. We will continue to ensure that we provide the I think that it indicates that the recapitalisation of the right level of resourcing for UKFI so that it can undertake banks and the actions that we took in January, on top of the work that it needs to do, which is about protecting those in October, are working. We need to do more to the taxpayer’s interests. 637 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 638

We have to bear in mind that as a Government, we Mr. Byrne: That is exactly why the Chancellor has have invested huge sums on behalf of the taxpayer into been clear that the inflation-busting remit of the Governor our banking system. We need to ensure that we do all of the Bank of England remains undisturbed. What is we can to protect the taxpayer’s interests, and that is important is that the Chancellor makes available to the what we will do. Governor the tools that he needs to deliver on that inflation target. That is why it is important that it is Inflation down to the independent Monetary Policy Committee to help oversee how tools such as quantitative easing are used. 4. Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): What his most recent assessment is of the effect of The Governor has been clear about how he will inflation on the economy. [278507] approach the question of when to stop using the tools that have been made available to him. He said in the The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): May inflation report that that decision would be based The Treasury’s latest assessment of inflation and its on a judgment about the inflation outlook, so there is effect, and the effect of other factors on the economy, no change in the strategy or the approach. This is was published in the Budget. Since then, consumer simply another way of conducting monetary policy price inflation was 2.3 per cent. in April. within the framework that the Chancellor has set for him. Ms Keeble: I welcome my right hon. Friend to his new post. Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): May I, too, welcome the Chief Secretary to his new In the longer term, will the Government look again at position? the inflation target, perhaps with a view to raising it so that as the economy moves out of recession—it is doing Last week in Beijing, US Treasury Secretary Tim that, which is very welcome—the green shoots of recovery Geithner said that are not crushed by too early and too steep an increase in “consumer spending in the United States will be restrained for interest rates? some time relative to what is typically the case in recoveries. These are necessary adjustments. They will entail a longer, slower process of recovery”. Mr. Byrne: We certainly have no plans to choke off growth when it returns, which is exactly why we have Going into this recession, UK household debt was even put so many tools and resources in place to ensure that higher than that in the US, so why does the Chief we return to recovery as quickly as possible. The reason Secretary think that the UK recovery will be so much why we will not revisit the inflation target in future is stronger than that in the US and is he still sticking to his simple: we do not see that there is a trade-off between trampoline forecast of 3.5 per cent. growth in 2011? inflation and growth, and in the medium term we believe that higher inflation will deliver higher interest Mr. Byrne: The reason why we have confidence in the rates, which in turn will dampen down our long-term forecast is that we not only acted early, but acted to rate of growth. That is exactly why, when the Chancellor ensure that a considerable stimulus was put in place. If published the Budget a month or two ago, he confirmed the hon. Gentleman looks at the return to growth after the Bank’s remit to keep the inflation target exactly previous recessions in the 1980s and 1990s, he will see whereitis. that it was not dissimilar to the return to growth that we project in the years to come. But that growth would not Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): I materialise and we would not see the recovery that we had intended to congratulate the Chancellor on rising project if we followed the course of action proposed by from his grave, but it appears that he is still lurking in the Opposition, and took £5 billion out of the economy the graveyard. at the worst possible time. May I ask when the Treasury plans to reverse the not Like me, the hon. Gentleman will have read closely very successful quantitative easing programme, in order the speech made by the shadow Chancellor, who said to moderate inflationary expectations? this morning: “You might think that the middle of a recession is not the time Mr. Byrne: The Governor of the Bank of England to be investing in the businesses and entrepreneurs of the future, but you couldn’t be more wrong. It’s actually exactly the right has been very clear that quantitative easing is a tool that time.” he needs to ensure that monetary policy operates effectively in this country. That is perhaps why we have not seen Can the hon. Gentleman perhaps explain why he plans the falls in prices that have been seen in other parts to take £5 billion out of the economy in the middle of a of the world. We are absolutely determined to ensure recession? that the Governor has the tools that he needs to set that measure alongside a fiscal stimulus. Together, they amount Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Notwithstanding to something like 4 per cent. of the economy. We believe the progress that has been made arising from the G20 that that is the best way to return to growth as quickly and all the rest of it—[Interruption.] This is serious— as possible. [Interruption.] We won every seat in Bolsover last week, six out of six—[Interruption.] Not in my area. I was on Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): the streets speaking to voters and getting them out— The market is factoring in expectations of a significant [Interruption.] You are no good at maths, either. rise in inflation, as reflected in higher bond yields. Why Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this time is that happening, and does it not run the risk of last year there was serious speculation in oil and other choking off any economic recovery when it comes? commodities, and the price of oil rose to $147 a barrel? 639 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 640

Speculation undoubtedly played a significant part in Does my right hon. Friend agree that spending on that. The price has now risen to $68 today. Will he aspects such as drug treatment and public health can ensure that there is no speculation of the kind that we have an implication for reoffending? For instance, the had last year, to ensure that the recovery gathers pace engagement of young people in school and in having a through to next year? future through education is also relevant to reducing reoffending. Will he come with me to look at the success Mr. Byrne: As my hon. Friend will know, the Governor of the violence reduction strategy in Cardiff, which has of the Bank of England and the Chancellor, in the prevented violent crime and also reduced the need for Budget, projected that the consumer prices index would expensive surgery? Will he also ensure that officials in begin to fall over the course of this year, which is why it his Department make the connection between these is important that we ensure that the Governor has the different sorts of budgets? right tools at his disposal to ensure that we do not see prices falling uncontrollably and for an extended length Mr. Byrne: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on of time. We will therefore ensure that the Governor has the persistence and tenacity with which he has raised the tools that he says he needs, but we will need to keep this issue with Treasury Ministers. I would be pleased to situations such as the rise in oil prices under close learn a little more about the work in Cardiff that he has review. That is why it is important that we retain a talked about. It is a clear example of the way in which degree of flexibility. It is also why it will be important front-line public servants, when they are given greater for us to carry on acting internationally, because the freedom, can work together more effectively to deliver kind of co-ordination that my hon. Friend mentions is better outcomes on such an important agenda, very best done internationally. That is something that would often for less money. I know that he will be keen to be very difficult if we were to take the very different know more about the work of Sir Michael Bichard, approach proposed by the Opposition. who is working in 13 different areas around the country to consider how, within different local authority areas, Mr. Speaker: I call Mr. Field. I thought that you we can bring together the work of public services engaged wanted to ask a question. in similar endeavours.

Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): Is this (Con): I often want to intervene, although not particularly not an area where the Minister can bring to bear on this point; the question that I was going to ask experience from his previous office? Is it not something concerns something that arose some time ago. What that Governments of all colours are rather bad at—namely, level of quantitative easing does the Chief Secretary spending on prevention rather than cure and spending believe is consistent with a low inflation target? upstream to avoid a problem rather than spending money on the consequences of that problem? Could not Mr. Byrne: Well, I am afraid that that is a judgment the excellent third sector organisations be deployed far that we will leave to the Governor of the Bank of England. more efficiently by the Government, with the right kind The Chancellor has authorised up to £150 billion of of backing, to stop people reoffending as frequently as quantitative easing, and the Bank has drawn down they do? something like £125 billion so far. As I say, it is important that we provide the framework and give the Governor Mr. Byrne: I have to agree with the hon. Gentleman. the tools to do the job, but it is also important for the Moving our attention and our resources into the business confidence of markets and for delivering the target in of prevention will, overall, be much cheaper for the country hand that it is left to the MPC and the Governor to and will save a lot of human pain in the medium and make the ultimate judgment about how much is needed long term. I must agree with him that the third sector now and how much is needed later. provides extraordinary new potential, as do charities, voluntary groups and social enterprises. They can help Reoffending (Access to Services) on this agenda in two fields in particular. First, they can ensure that those who are convicted of offences are 5. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/ given much greater skills, education and literacy training Co-op): What discussions he has had with ministerial so that they are better able to succeed in the labour colleagues to ensure that methods of budgeting for market. Secondly, they can do a better job of helping health, education and skills enable quick and effective people to kick the poison of drugs. As we know, that is access to services required to reduce levels of the root cause of so much reoffending in this country. reoffending. [278508] Mr. Andy Reed (Loughborough) (Lab/Co-op): One The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): of the most effective approaches with young offenders The Treasury sits alongside 13 other Departments, including in particular is finding paid employment. I have seen a the Department for Children, Schools and Families, the scheme sponsored by National Grid that reduces the Department for Work and Pensions and the Department reoffending rates from 70 per cent. to just 7 per cent. of Health, in our work focused on reducing reoffending. through supported employment, taking young people My right hon. Friend will be glad to know that adult into the workplace and ensuring that they have all the reoffending fell by 23 per cent. between 2000 and 2006, support they need. As has been said, this is all about while juvenile reoffending fell by nearly 19 per cent. prevention and ensuring that we invest in the long term over the same period. by investing these moneys up front. Will he commit to ensuring that such schemes are replicated across the Alun Michael: I welcome my right hon. Friend to country so that we learn from the best practice that is answering these questions. already happening up and down our Prison Service? 641 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 642

Mr. Byrne: The scheme that my hon. Friend mentions Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): is very much the kind of scheme that will be more The economies of some European economies, such as possible in the future because of the £100 million of Hungary and Latvia, are experiencing deep economic investment provided last year in the youth crime action troubles, and traditionally they would turn to the IMF plan. As I say, ensuring that money and resources go for help and rescue. They are also committed to becoming into equipping people with the skills that they need to members of the eurozone, so is the Treasury having any succeed in today’s labour market is one of the best discussions with the IMF on how to co-ordinate the investments that we can make in crime prevention. actions of the IMF and the European Commission in From my experience in my constituency, I think that respect of those failing currencies? that must go alongside well-organised, well-structured and well-delivered programmes to keep people away Mr. Byrne: As my hon. Friend knows, conversations from drugs, too, but where there is innovation such as about such questions go on all the time with the IMF that pioneered by National Grid, we will, of course, and within the European Commission. She underlines seek to learn from it and build on it. the point that we need a better system of international surveillance so that preventive action, where it is needed, Debt Reduction can be taken fast. 6. Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): What recent discussions officials in his Department have had Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): Will the with the International Monetary Fund on the Chief Secretary confirm that this country is now formally Government’s plans for debt reduction. [278509] in an excessive deficit procedure, and that the Economic and Finance Council wrote to the Chancellor on 27 April The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): to say that the Government had not taken effective The IMF holds bilateral discussions with each of its action to correct the situation? ECOFIN also said that, member countries, usually every year, as part of its even on the Government’s own figures, our deficit will country surveillance function. IMF staff last visited be more than four times the permitted 3 per cent. level. London in May 2009 and met representatives of various Is the Minister pleased or sad that that rules out this institutions, including Her Majesty’s Treasury. country joining the euro in the foreseeable future?

Richard Ottaway: The IMF recently published its report Mr. Byrne: I missed the last bit, but the answer to the on the British economy and the Minister’s colleagues substance of the question is that we have to make sure have clearly read it, as they are very fond of quoting the that we publish a pathway back to balance that is open, odd phrase that supports the Government’s tattered transparent and credible. It will entail the difficult policy economic policy. However, at its heart it is highly critical choices that were set out very clearly in the Budget. and calls for a Difficult decisions will have to be taken, such as increasing “more ambitious medium-term fiscal adjustment path”. marginal rates of tax on the 600,000 people who earn Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that that is more than £150,000 a year. Serious efficiency measures bureaucratic code for, “We’re in a mess and the Budget will also be needed, but as my right hon. Friend the doesn’t sort it out”? Financial Secretary said recently, that is precisely the sort of discipline that we are determined to set out, and Mr. Byrne: I am afraid that I am going to be guilty of stick to. quoting from aspects of the IMF report again, but like me the hon. Gentleman will have read the IMF’s Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) endorsement of the Government’s response to the crisis. (Lab): Since debt reduction is of the utmost importance It said that it was “bold and wide ranging” and would to developing countries, will my right hon. Friend confirm “support the recovery”—an echo of what IMF managing that the Government remain absolutely committed to director Dominique Strauss-Kahn said when he told achieving the millennium development goals? “Newsnight” that it was “obvious” that the fiscal stimulus “is the right thing to do”. Mr. Byrne: Yes, I am happy to provide my right hon. However, there will be differences of view with the IMF. Friend and the House with that assurance. For example, we have a different projection or estimate of what the return to growth will look like; the IMF Mr. Richard Spring (West Suffolk) (Con): Given the estimates that economic growth will contract by 4.1 per way our debts are growing, is the right hon. Gentleman cent. this year, but the consensus among independent aware that according to The Economist, our Budget forecasters is for something more akin to 3.8 per cent. It deficit this year as a percentage of GDP will be the is not unexpected, therefore, that we will have different highest in the entire industrialised world? ideas and judgments about what is the right pathway back to fiscal balance. We are determined to make sure Mr. Byrne: The very reason we are able to mount the that we halve the deficit over four years and pay off fiscal stimulus that we put in place this year is that, something of the order of £50 billion by 2013-14. against international comparisons, we went into the Where there are difficult decisions to make, we will downturn with relatively low levels of debt. We think it make them, especially on tax and efficiency. Unlike the is important that we invest now, because if we did not Opposition, however, we are determined to make sure provide the stimulus that we are putting in place, the that we protect front-line services because we think that recession would cut deeper and longer, and would more that is the best way to protect businesses and families in closely resemble the kind of experience that this country this country while returning as quickly as possible to a went through in the 1980s and 1990s. That is not an sensible and sustainable fiscal position. experience, thanks very much, that we want to repeat. 643 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 644

Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): I do not The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen know where The Economist got its figures, but the IMF Timms): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s work on early figures indicate that debt in this country as a percentage intervention. Its benefits have been recognised in spending of GDP is lower than in all our industrial competitors decisions and, for example, in January’s “New and will stay lower than theirs for several years. Is not Opportunities” White Paper, as my hon. Friend knows, the key thing about debt whether or not we can service and they will certainly be recognised, as he calls for, in it? As we reduce those levels of debt, may I ask my right future spending decisions as well. hon. Friend not to cut the investments that we are making in jobs, wealth creation and public services, Mr. Allen: Will my right hon. Friend have a word because those are what will guarantee that we can repay with the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the debt in the long term? congratulate him on now being a little closer to the place where he can actually do something about social Mr. Byrne: I can provide that assurance because in inclusion and early intervention? Will he also discuss the Budget the Chancellor was able to set out a pathway with him the idea that the best way to pay off debt is to back to balance, which involved difficult decisions on invest effectively and early, securing returns through tax, spending and efficiencies, not least adding to the people who have grown up to be more capable citizens £30 billion of efficiencies projected for next year a due to early intervention? Will he therefore include further £5 billion. The Chancellor was also able to set early intervention, as the next theme of the comprehensive out the kind of sustained investment that we can continue spending review, in every single Department so that we this year, for example, in primary care trusts, with can start to receive repayments from that investment, to budgets up 5.5 per cent., in schools, with budgets up pay off the debt and to establish an effective economic this year 4.3 per cent., in front-line policing, with budgets base among our people as well as among our financial up this year 2.7 per cent., and in local councils, which institutions? this year helped to deliver the lowest council tax increases for more than a decade. Mr. Timms: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the benefits of investing particularly in the Mr. David Gauke (South-West Hertfordshire) (Con): early years of children’s lives. Sure Start children’s centres May I welcome the Chief Secretary to his new position? are a great example: we have invested almost £2 billion I am sure his arrival in his new post will be welcomed by in them, and we will have 3,500 of them by the end of the Chancellor as well, not least on the grounds that, next year. It is absolutely right to say that that investment presumably, the Chief Secretary’s spouse will not be in children’s earliest years will amply be repaid in years plotting to replace the Chancellor. The IMF report that to come. Future spending will not be needed because we have been discussing says that the UK recovery will children will be better equipped for their future lives— be subdued and gradual, in contrast to the Treasury’s transforming their chances. I can tell my hon. Friend very optimistic forecasts, yet is was reported in The that we certainly will reflect that perspective in the Times last week that even the Treasury’s projections comprehensive spending review, when that work is under were insufficient for the Prime Minister, and way. It would be catastrophic to impose £5 billion of “the Prime Minister tried to upgrade the growth forecasts to unplanned spending cuts this year, as the Opposition make the economic outlook appear rosier than it was; the Chancellor have argued for. refused.” Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): Early Is there any truth in this allegation? Is this not another intervention is welcome, but how does the Minister example of splits between the Prime Minister and the expect to cope with the lack of social and language Chancellor? skills of many pupils entering reception classes and the Mr. Byrne: What are important for the House are the first years of primary school, which reflect the breakdown estimates that were published. There is indeed a range generally in British society? of views right the way across independent forecasters. Mr. Timms: Of course, the hon. Lady’s point is one The hon. Gentleman will no doubt have access to those, reason why early intervention is so important. The as I do. The IMF, it is true, is on the pessimistic end of network of 3,500 children’s centres will make a big those forecasts, projecting a 4.1 per cent. contraction contribution to preparing children at the start of their this year. I understand that the IMF has now revised its lives to do well, and for school when they reach it. It is forecast three times since October last year, reflecting a vital that those investments be maintained. One great degree of uncertainty in the international economy, but benefit of the work of my hon. Friend the Member for I merely note for the House that the IMF is at the Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) on that issue is the pessimistic end of that range of forecasts. If one corrals cross-party support for it. He wrote a pamphlet jointly the range of independent forecasts that are available, with the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford one finds the consensus among them is about 3.8 per Green (Mr. Duncan Smith), and we need to sustain that cent. We think growth will be stronger than that but, as commitment. the Chancellor has said to the House a number of times, the international economy remains in an uncertain Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): One issue place. that must be considered, along with early intervention, Early Intervention is poverty among families. The Government have a commitment to child poverty reduction targets, but 7. Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) (Lab): If unfortunately it has not been possible to implement he will take steps to ensure that policy to encourage them in recent years. We must stick with those targets, early intervention is taken into account in decisions on however, so will my right hon. Friend commit to keeping expenditure in the next comprehensive spending them as a priority and ensure that they are part of the review; and if he will make a statement. [278510] comprehensive spending review next year? 645 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 646

Mr. Timms: I certainly will. We have made a great Mr. Newmark: I am sure the Minister is aware that deal of progress in reducing child poverty. The number on-balance-sheet debt is likely to rise to 79 per cent. of of children below the poverty line has been reduced by gross domestic product by 2013-14. I am sure he is well half a million since 1997; our commitment is to secure aware that, the Government having acquired several the eradication of child poverty in the UK by 2020, and banks, that debt amounts to roughly £2 trillion, currently we will shortly publish legislation to enshrine that held off-balance sheet, in addition to another £1 trillion commitment in statute. of public sector pension liabilities. Can he confirm how much debt is currently held off-balance sheet by the Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) Government, and what percentage of GDP that represents? (Con): I realise why it was impossible up until last week for the Chancellor to confirm the details of the Mr. Byrne: We can be open about what the costs are comprehensive spending review, but, since the Chancellor of the current financial crisis, and those costs were set has now reasserted control of his Department, will the out clearly in the Budget. Both the International Monetary right hon. Gentleman, on the Chancellor’s behalf, confirm Fund and the Bank of England have welcomed the that there will indeed be a comprehensive spending degree of transparency about the kind of costs we have review? Will he also confirm the timing of that review projected. and the period that it will cover? Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): When Mr. Timms: An announcement of the timing for the calculating public sector debt, can my right hon. Friend comprehensive spending review has not yet been made, assure me that the whole cost of private finance initiative and I am not able to provide additional information on schemes will be included? He talks of transparency; we that, but of course there will certainly be one. need transparency in relation to PFI, which is at best a murky scheme, and at worst a failed scheme. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): In the spending review, will the Government take into account Mr. Byrne: I know that I will not be the first Minister the impact of oil prices, particularly on businesses and to answer that question by reminding the House that communities, which have great difficulties with them? that is of course a matter for the Office for National Statistics. Mr. Timms: Yes, we certainly will. We have put in place an effective programme of support for businesses, Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend which need help to get through this very difficult period reflect on what the alternatives might have been if we in the world economy. We are starting to see clear signs had not intervened in the banking system? My that the steps we have taken are working, and we will constituents—pensioners with savings, and people with maintain our support for businesses in the period ahead. mortgages and businesses—are relieved that the Government have taken the action that they have taken. Public Sector Debt Complaints from Conservative Members about the level of debt that that has given rise to demonstrate that they 8. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): would have done absolutely nothing to assist those By what date he next expects public sector debt to fall people, or to deal with the dire consequences that below 40 per cent. of gross domestic product. [278511] people would have faced as a result.

10. Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): By what Mr. Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I date he next expects public sector debt to fall below would tempt him to go further. Of course, if the rescue 40 per cent. of gross domestic product. [278513] for the banks had not taken place, not only would the economy be in a far more serious situation now, but its The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): potential for growth would be in a far more serious In the current global environment of uncertainty, our position. That, in part, is precisely why the IMF has focus is on ensuring that debt is on a downward turn in congratulated the Government on the bold and wide- the medium term, and we have set out clear plans to do ranging programme we have put in place, and indeed on precisely that. the international leadership we have shown.

Andrew Selous: Does the Minister accept that the Topical Questions huge increase in Government debt in the UK represents significant extra tax rises for the British people in the T1. [278528] Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) future, and that the interest on that debt also represents (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental massive amounts of public spending forgone in future responsibilities. years? The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): Mr. Byrne: We have been very clear about what We will bring forward a statement of departmental precisely we project and anticipate in the years to come. responsibilities to the House at the earliest possible We have been candid and open about the tax and opportunity. spending implications, and the efficiency implications. I know the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I tell him Ms Keeble: Perhaps like many other hon. Members in that the future costs of today’s downturn would be far this House, I have a branch of Cheltenham & Gloucester more significant if we let it cut deeper and longer, and in my town. May I put it to my right hon. Friend that taking £5 billion out of public spending right now many people will be really concerned about the loss of would guarantee exactly that. jobs and services from institutions that have had so 647 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 648 much public sector funding? Will he therefore ensure which public sector net investment moves to a position that the banks understand that although of course we of 1.25 per cent. by 2013-14. [Interruption.] I hear expect them to make a profit and repay their debts, we Opposition Members squealing “Cut” from a sedentary also expect them to honour their wider social commitments position. However, through our process of bringing to their employees, their customers and the wider forward capital investment into this year, we are indeed community? able to provide for reductions in capital spending in later years. What the Prime Minister was reflecting is The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): very clearly the position in current spending as was set I fully understand the comments that my hon. Friend out by the Chancellor at the Budget. makes. She will be aware that Lloyds Banking Group is undertaking a restructuring exercise. To be frank, in T2. [278529] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): The prevailing some instances it does not make sense to have three economic philosophy is that the free movement of labour branches of the same bank within 100 yd of each other. across Europe is good for the economy. Does the Chief That having been said, it is vital that Lloyds Banking Secretary agree with me that his Department needs to Group follows the right sort of processes, and that it provide statistics to demonstrate whether a worker treats not only its customers but its staff fairly. Although permanently resident in this country who gets a job has we are talking about an operational decision for Lloyds, a greater economic multiplier effect than a temporarily Lloyds has made it clear that it intends, as a matter of resident migrant worker who gets the same job? preference, to try to carry out its proposals through natural turnover of its staff, and we hope that it will be Mr. Byrne: That subject has been debated extensively possible to do that. in both Houses and it was reviewed in some depth by the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee. In Mr. Speaker: Order. In case there is a problem, I their evidence submitted to that Committee, the should say that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury Government were clear that, on average, migrant workers opened by saying what great things his Department was contribute more to this country than they take out. doing. It would appear, however, that the Economic Obviously, it is important to keep that under close Secretary to the Treasury knew more about this particular review. The advent of the Australian points-based system subject. means that we are able either to raise or lower the bar to newcomers much more flexibly, depending on the needs Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): I know he got of the labour market here and the overall economic off to a shaky start, but let me welcome the new Chief contribution made to this country by migration. Secretary to the Treasury to his job. He is the fifth Chief Secretary I have faced—and hopefully the last before the general election. I hope he enjoys his move from Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): My hon. Friend No. 10 to the Treasury, and that the coffee is up to his the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) apologises for exacting standards. At least he knows he will not be hit being unavoidably absent owing to a recent operation on the head by a flying mobile phone. on his appendix. As the Chief Secretary surveys the team in his new Department, can he think of any part Will the Chief Secretary confirm that the Treasury’s of the Treasury ministerial anatomy that, similarly, current spending plans—the plans set out by the Treasury serves no useful function, exists in a state of constant at the Budget—show that total real Government spending pain and was threatened with brutal surgical removal is going to be cut in the years 2011, 2012 and 2013? If over the weekend? that is the case, what on earth was the Prime Minister saying when he told the press conference last Friday: Mr. Byrne: None springs immediately to mind. “Public spending is due to rise every year”?

Mr. Byrne: I thank the shadow Chancellor for that Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) (Lab): Ministers welcome, delivered with the self-assurance and charm will be aware that this week is carers week. Could the that have become his trademark in the House. As he appropriate Minister from the Treasury meet the appropriate very well knows, when the Chancellor set out his Budget Minister from the Department for Work and Pensions he provided for 0.7 per cent. real-terms increases in to try to find the finances to end the unfairness in the current spending. That is set alongside a move in public carer’s allowance, which is completely lost following a service net investment to 1.25 per cent. That was the very small increase in earnings or on retirement, despite position the Prime Minister was echoing last week. the fact that the caring role and responsibility continue?

Mr. Osborne: I am sorry, but I must press the Chief The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kitty Ussher): Secretary on this. He gave us the current spending This being my first day as a Treasury Minister, having figures; I am asking about total Government spending, previously been at the Department for Work and Pensions, which is what the Prime Minister was asked about. The I can say I will be delighted to hold such a meeting. Treasury figures clearly show that that is going to be cut in 2011, 2012 and 2013. That is why the Chancellor of T3. [278530] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) the Exchequer said on the radio, the day after the (LD): What progress has the Chadwick review made on Budget, that he had cut overall spending. What on earth compensation for Equitable Life policyholders? did the Prime Minister mean when he said that public spending was due to rise every year? Ian Pearson: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the Government appointed Sir John Chadwick to advise Mr. Byrne: The position is as I have just stated. There us on the form of an ex gratia payment scheme that will be real growth in public spending of 0.7 per cent. should be devised and the factors that relate to between 2011-12 and 2013-14, alongside a situation in disproportionate impact. I can report that Sir John 649 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 650

Chadwick has made progress; when I recently appeared Mr. Timms: I do not think it will. Indeed, we are before the Public Administration Committee, I gave likely to debate the matter in the Finance Committee further details about how his work was proceeding. I this afternoon. The Treasury consents rules were introduced can confirm that actuarial advisers have been appointed in 1951 in a very different environment and they are to help him with his work, and that he has the staffing now clearly out of date. The measures that I will set out and resources he requires to do his job. We have always in Committee this afternoon, with which we are replacing said that we wanted progress to be made as quickly as those rules, are a much more effective way of tackling possible, and that clearly remains the Government’s the genuine problem of avoidance, to which my hon. position. Friend rightly draws attention. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): Last week, the Northern Ireland Secretary gave the House an undertaking T5. [278532] Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): that he would pursue with vigour the crisis facing The announcement today by Lloyds TSB about the job investors in the Presbyterian Mutual Society in Northern losses at Cheltenham & Gloucester is a big blow, particularly Ireland. There is clearly a Treasury dimension to this. to the 74 people who will be made redundant in Gloucester. I would like to know what has been done, what is The bigger issue is the 1,000 people who also work in being done, and what discussions are being held on our county for the Cheltenham & Gloucester mortgage behalf of those investors—the most thrifty and decent business. Given that the Government control a significant people who are very anxious about having access to stake through UKFI—which the second permanent their funds now. secretary to the Treasury runs, and which is therefore not at arm’s length—can the Minister provide any assurance Ian Pearson: I sympathise with the situation that about whether those jobs are secure in the short and the people who have made investments in the Presbyterian long term? Mutual Society are facing. My hon. Friend will be aware that the PMS is not like a normal savings institution: Ian Pearson: As I have told the House previously, if it is not regulated by the Financial Services Authority, we are to protect taxpayers’ interests, it is vital that and when people made investments they did so in the UKFI manages its relationships with the banks in which form of shares rather than deposits. Different circumstances the Government have investments commercially. Lloyds therefore apply. He will be aware that there has been Banking Group is making commercial decisions. As an investigation. We have been looking into the whole with any major company, we expect it to act in a socially issue of the regulation of credit unions and industrial responsible manner and undertake due processes of and provident societies, and a report is due to be published consultation with its work force. My understanding is shortly. that that is exactly what is happening.

T4. [278531] Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): In respect of the Government’s planned changes to furnished T6. [278533] John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): holiday lettings tax rules, could the Financial Secretary Despite the massive investment of public funds in the to the Treasury clarify whether it would be possible to banking sector, many small and medium-sized viable distinguish between properties that are purpose-built companies have contacted me to say that the banks are chalets, caravans, and other properties with occupancy not providing the financial support that they require. restrictions that are clearly intended for the holiday What are the Chancellor and the Treasury team doing lettings industry, and other properties that have been to ensure that money that goes to the banks finds its lived in and could be lived in again by local families way to small and medium-sized businesses? in need? Ian Pearson: Let us first be clear that, when the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen Government took action to prevent the collapse in the Timms): I would not want to encourage the hon. Gentleman banking system, we were investing not in the banks but in the view that that might give a way forward on this in people who had savings and mortgages and in companies issue. Our position is that we have given support in the that had overdrafts in the banking system to ensure that past. It is clear, under European Union rules, that that it could continue. As a result of the negotiations in support would need to be extended to furnished January, under the asset protection scheme, RBS has accommodation not only in the UK but across Europe. made legally binding commitments to invest more in We are therefore making that change, but only for a businesses this year and next, as has Lloyds. The sums year; then our intention would be to withdraw the relief for businesses are £16 billion from RBS and £14 billion altogether, not just for some but for all furnished holiday from Lloyds, on top of the additional investments that accommodation. Northern Rock is making and the announcements from David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): banks that have not taken advantage of the recapitalisation Further to earlier answers, Britain’s national debt would scheme, such as HSBC and Barclays. be repaid more rapidly, and public expenditure cuts We are in a position whereby much of the international would be avoided more easily, if the top 700 British finance that was available to the UK economy in the companies did not involve themselves in tax avoidance form of lending to business has disappeared in the past on such a grand scale. Why, in that case, does this year’s 12 months. We are putting that back in place through Finance Bill repeal section 765 of the Income and our negotiations and agreements with UK banks. We Corporation Taxes Act 1988, which requires companies will continue to monitor, through the lending panel, to seek the permission of Her Majesty’s Revenue and actual lending in the UK economy, so that we can Customs before moving cash offshore and to say whether ensure that small and medium-sized enterprises and the move will be to the detriment of the Treasury? That other businesses get the lending and financial support will encourage avoidance. that they need to see them through the difficult times. 651 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 652

Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I wonder Mr. Timms: We have already made some substantial whether my hon. Friend saw the survey in the Financial changes and improvements to the way the tax credit Times yesterday of City economists. It showed that a system works. One of the consequences is, for example, majority thought the recession would end in June. The that complaints to the tax credit office are down by a minority who did not thought it would end sooner half, compared with two years ago, so there have certainly rather than later this year. Does that not show that been considerable improvements. The tax credits the City is coming round to the Budget forecasts for the transformation programme that we have put in place is economy? Is that not a clear endorsement of the delivering. I accept that there is more to be done, but it Government’s programme for a fiscal stimulus? is worth remembering that 6 million families benefit from tax credits, and that includes 10 million children. Mr. Byrne: My hon. Friend will be delighted to hear That is one of the main reasons why we have been able that I have no plans to provide a running commentary to reduce child poverty so substantially over the past on growth forecasts. The Budget clearly set out our 10 years, but we need to ensure that the system works as current expectations, and the next update will be provided efficiently as possible and that overpayments are minimised. to the House in the pre-Budget report. I merely note We have seen a big reduction in the number of that several City economists and independent forecasters overpayments, and we will work to improve the position have revised up their forecasts for growth next year and further. adjusted their forecasts for the extent of the downturn this year. As I said in response to earlier questions, T8. [278535] Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) independent forecasters’ average for contraction this (Con): May I give the new Chief Secretary another year is 3.8 per cent., which is much closer to the forecast opportunity, while the cat is away, to play at being open that we published in the Budget. about the Government’s spending plans? Given the analysis of spending plans by the Institute for Fiscal T7. [278534] Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) Studies, Departments are projected to face a real-terms (Con): May I ask Treasury Ministers to look again at cut of 2.3 per cent., which translates into cuts totalling the position of those families who are being pursued by £20 billion. Can he come clean today and accept that the Treasury for alleged overpayment of tax credits? I the 2009 Budget heralded significant Labour cuts? still have a steady stream of families coming to my surgery who are being chased, sometimes for up to £10,000 or more. They come in with detailed files of Mr. Byrne: Let me be very clear—I am afraid I will information, and I am absolutely inclined to believe have to repeat a number of the points that I made that they have been entirely honourable and honest in earlier. The Chancellor set out clearly what changes will looking at their claims. Those families tell me that the happen overall to public sector net investment over the Treasury sometimes takes the more expensive period of next few years and what changes we forecast to real their child care, rather than looking at their child care growth in current spending. However, as he said as costs over the period as a whole. Those families do not recently as last oral questions, with the degree of uncertainty like the way the Treasury acts as judge and jury, with in the international economy that we currently face, I no right of appeal. That causes huge distress, so may I just do not think that now is the time to start making ask Ministers please to look again at the issue and tell detailed budgets for individual Departments for the us that they can do something to help those families? year after the Olympics. 653 9 JUNE 2009 654

Point of Order Road Signs (Tourist Destinations and Facilities) 3.37 pm Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): On a point No. 23) of order, Mr. Speaker. Is any procedure available to the House—to Ministers or Back Benchers—to extend 3.38 pm the time available on Thursday for topical questions to the new Department for Business, Innovation and Skills? Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I beg to The publication of ministerial responsibilities today move, reveals the true extent of the massive changes being That leave be given to bring in a Bill to impose duties on the planned, with responsibilities moving to and from the Highways Agency and other public authorities to promote tourism by providing or permitting to be provided appropriate road new Department. I have just come from another place, signage; and for connected purposes. where I saw a private notice question to the Secretary of State and First Secretary of State, the noble Lord The Bill is the product of the frustration of people Mandelson, who singularly failed to convince the House whose businesses depend on tourism at the obstruction of the merits of the change. The bewildering range of that they meet in getting approval for signs to direct questions on Thursday’s Order Paper shows the scale of motorists to their location in rural areas. They are what is happening to the Department. For once, the frustrated particularly with the attitude of the Highways topical question, “If he will make a statement on his Agency and the planning authorities, which in turn are departmental responsibilities”, is the one question to influenced by guidance from central Government; their which this House needs an answer, but sadly 15 minutes frustration is shared by hon. Members. I am grateful to will not be enough to deliver it. Is there any guidance those who so readily agreed to be supporters of the Bill, that you can give me, Mr. Speaker? including my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson), who is here this afternoon Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for the Chair, but and who I know is seeking to deal with the same the House will have noticed that from time to time I problem in his constituency. tend to run topical questions beyond 3.30 pm, because Tourism is absolutely vital to most rural communities, they are very popular. No doubt those on the Front and many tourist businesses depend on motorists finding Bench will have heard what the hon. Gentleman has their way off the main road to the wide variety of had to say, and I thank him. leisure, educational, catering, retail and accommodation facilities on offer. Many of those facilities depend on passing trade; others might already been known about but are difficult to find without a sign indicating where to turn off the main road. I am not in favour of American-style billboards all over our roads and fields, advertising products that are not local, and a rush of such signs along some motorways might have prompted a tougher line being taken. That was understandable, but there is a completely different case to be made for local tourism signs. Signs for local amenities need to be attractively designed, well sited and not confusing or too numerous. It is right that there should be planning controls, so long as they are exercised proportionately and sympathetically.In too many instances, however, we find obstruction and disproportionate action. In looking at examples of the problem, I want to distinguish between two types of sign: brown signs and privately provided signs. On trunk roads, the Highways Agency has a system for the familiar brown signs, although it is at best a fairly rigid scheme. High visitor numbers are required to qualify for a sign, for which the tourist attraction pays. On motorways, an attraction needs 250,000 visitors a year to qualify for a sign; on single carriageway roads such as the A1 in Northumberland, the figure goes down to 40,000, with the possibility of an allowance for seasonal businesses. Many tourist attractions try to get through all the hoops and meet the definitions to qualify and pay for a sign, but are still refused. I wonder how many can match the experience of Berwick-upon-Tweed golf club at Goswick, south of Berwick. It is a beautiful seaside links course that attracts thousands of visiting golfers and will stage the pre-qualifying competition for the British Open every year for the next three years. It is the first course in the north-east to get that honour. In 2000, it paid £1,200 for 655 Road Signs (Tourist Destinations and 9 JUNE 2009 Road Signs (Tourist Destinations and 656 Facilities) Facilities) [Sir Alan Beith] fees to be paid, whether the application is successful or not. A couple of years ago, the Department for brown signs. Recently, however, the Highways Agency Communities and Local Government, through central removed the signs, without consulting the club or allowing guidance, set off a purge of roadside signs, which hit it to make representations. rural businesses in many parts of the country. Council I took the matter up with the Highways Agency, officials were dispatched to remove signs. One over-zealous which has apologised for its failure to consult. So, that official in my constituency actually started painting is all right: the signs will go back up, won’t they? Oh, no. over offending signs with a spray can. They cannot go back up, because the Highways Agency I believe that there is a need for a more tolerant says that they are no longer in line with its current attitude, and for a simple approval process to ensure policy on tourist signs. It says that the golf club should that signs provide direction to nearby tourist facilities advise visitors through its website to look out for the and that they are safely sited, from a road safety point road sign to Goswick and follow that route. That involves of view, proportionate and adequately designed. The taking a dangerous turning off a single carriageway absence of such a light-touch system has led to a road, one of several turnings to places with confusingly proliferation of parked vans, farm trailers and other similar names: Goswick, Cheswick and Fenwick. The less attractive substitutes for proper signs—although idea that hundreds of visiting golfers should have to they, too, are now covered by the planning guidance rely on their computer back home to spot the right and are at risk of removal. turning is ridiculous. If the Highways Agency wants to In a period of recession, the countryside depends prove my Bill unnecessary, it must abandon this ridiculous more than ever on visiting tourists contributing to the refusal to reinstate very necessary signs, and show more rural economy. People need to be able to see where flexibility and helpfulness to rural businesses. the facilities are, and it is better for road safety that the Another case involves a newly built country hotel at motorist can clearly see where to turn off and find a Doxford Hall, north of Alnwick, which simply needs to meal, a bed, a place of interest or a facility for the be added to an existing brown sign on the Al that refers children. My Bill simply places obligations on the Highways to other local amenities at Doxford. Hon. Members Agency, highway authorities and planning authorities might have seen a reference to this place, because the to help the promotion of local tourist facilities by owner is planning to sell it and to give the entire providing appropriate road signs or permitting appropriate proceeds to cancer nursing in the community in north signs to be provided. At the moment, small businesses Northumberland—a marvellous gesture. On roads other too often feel that the system is working against them than trunk roads, local highway authorities are responsible when it should be helping them, enabling them to make for the signs, and some are helpful. I gather that their services available to the motorist and thereby to Northumberland county council has agreed to brown support tourism in the economy of the countryside. signage for Doxford Hall on the local roads, for example. Question put and agreed to. Brown signs are clearly going to be approved for and Ordered, financed by only the larger tourist businesses. Small That Sir Alan Beith, Hilary Armstrong, Mr. Nigel Evans, country pubs, tea rooms, animal sanctuaries, potteries, Mr. Adrian Sanders, Mr. David Drew, Mr. Denis Murphy bed and breakfasts, farm shops and other smaller-scale and Dan Rogerson present the Bill. amenities usually try to have a smaller sign on the edge of a field or on a fence alongside the road. Some of Sir Alan Beith accordingly presented the Bill. those signs are needed only during the tourist season. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on They require planning permission, for which there are Friday 26 June and to be printed (Bill 107). 657 9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 658

Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I thank the hon. Opposition Day Gentleman for his warm words about the Select Committee report and for the tone of the motion. In giving evidence [12TH ALLOTTED DAY] to the Select Committee, he went out of his way to stress the importance of cross-party approaches, which also includes the voluntary sector. Does he agree that Knife Crime only by parties working together and raising the issue above party politics will we truly find a solution to Mr. Speaker: I advise the House that I have selected knife crime? the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. Chris Grayling: That is right. There will be times 3.47 pm when we debate issues on a party basis, but not because we have different objectives. We all share the objective Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I beg to of reducing crime and knife crime and of restoring move, stability to communities affected by it. There may be That this House believes that teenage knife crime and the times when we disagree over methods or be critical of increased incidence of carrying knives in many communities is Ministers because we think they have got it wrong. That one of the most critical social and law and order issues facing the is right and proper, but organisations and individuals country; welcomes the contribution made by the Home Affairs out there are looking to this House for a grown-up and Select Committee in its Seventh Report, Session 2008-09, on mature debate. It is right and proper that with an issue Knife Crime, published 5 on 2 June 2009; commends the work done by voluntary sector organisations like the Damilola Taylor as serious as this one we take a step back from time to Trust to tackle the problem; and expresses the belief that the time and have a grown-up discussion of the kind that solution to knife crime will only come from cross-community the right hon. Gentleman rightly started in his Home co-operation to address its root causes. Affairs Committee. Before I begin my remarks on the motion, I welcome Before I get to the heart of the debate, I want to make the new Home Secretary and his new team to their one important point. There is no arms race going on positions. It is five years since I last did battle with the among all children in the United Kingdom, nor are all right hon. Gentleman over top-up fees, and it is a seven-year-olds carrying knives for their elders. There is pleasure to shadow him again. I wondered whether he an acute gang problem in some parts of the country, might prove to be the shortest-lived Home Secretary in particularly in inner-city areas and most significantly in the history of this country, but following last night’s parts of London, but the vast majority of young people meeting of the parliamentary Labour party it appears are decent, law-abiding citizens, getting on with their that he might have to wait a little longer before he gets lives, taking their exams, working on a Saturday morning the opportunity to move into No. 10. Seriously, however, and having fun on a Saturday night. We must not allow I look forward to debating the issues facing us all over a serious and important debate to create the sense that the months ahead. young people are a problem today. No doubt we will argue intensively over the failures of Government policy, but today’s debate is intended to Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) be different. I understand from the Clerks that it is (Lab): I, too, welcome the thoughtful way in which the customary for an Opposition day motion to be critical hon. Gentleman is approaching this topic. I entirely of the Government and their policies, but this motion is endorse what he said about the majority of young not intended to do that. Rather, it is intended to stimulate people being law-abiding and going about their business a serious discussion about an issue that has been of as excellent young citizens in the making. Does he concern to all of us—knife crime, particularly among agree, however, that one issue with which all of our young people. It is an issue that is both serious and us—politicians and others—need to engage is the fact disturbing and one that should be subject to dialogue that there is a fear race going on out there? As the across the political and community divides. evidence taken by our Select Committee confirmed, Last week, the Home Affairs Select Committee published young people are often frightened of the streets, and a thoughtful report on the subject, and during the frightened of the images conveyed to them about other course of its inquiry it invited representations from people carrying weapons. We have a serious duty to get across the House. The Committee took evidence from the balance right, and our media colleagues have a me and the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), serious duty to help us. who speaks for the Liberal Democrats, as well as from Ministers, so it seemed logical and sensible for the House Chris Grayling: That is absolutely true. We should to have an early opportunity to discuss the matter. I not seek to create a climate of fear. In the vast majority very much hope that the Chairman of the Select Committee of our communities, this is not the issue that it is in will be able to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, and give us some inner-city areas, although there are certainly law- his perspectives on the inquiry. and-order problems up and down the country involving It is also sensible to give the House the opportunity antisocial behaviour and some criminality. Happily, the to praise and discuss the views of organisations out in incidence of serious knife crime remains limited to a the community that deal with knife crime and its relatively small number of communities, but it is there consequences. Our voluntary sector does hugely valuable none the less, and it is to protect young people that we work in trying to break down the knife culture and the need to continue this debate. They are far more likely to tendency of young people to become caught up in be the victims of knife crime, and to be scarred for life gangs. We should recognise the importance of what or even worse. It is for their protection that we need to they do. get this right. 659 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 660

[Chris Grayling] The root causes of the gang culture that leads to knife crime lie right across the policy spectrum, but they The reality of the situation is quite stark. The level of tend to be found in the same geographical areas. If we fatal stabbings is the highest on record. There has been were to map out geographically rates of worklessness, a 34 per cent. increase in the number of people killed by family breakdown, educational failure and addiction in sharp instruments such as knives in recent years. The the family, we would find a high correlation between number of people stabbed to death in England and social breakdown and the gang culture, and the report Wales increased from 201 a decade ago to 270 in 2007-08, makes it clear that there is a link between deprivation, the highest figure on record. That is a serious problem. gang membership and knife crime. A serious knife crime—although not a homicide—is committed every hour. According to recent figures, Ms Buck: Is the hon. Gentleman also aware of research 22,151 serious offences involving knives were recorded by the Sutton Trust, an educational research organisation, in England and Wales in 2008. That is equivalent to that importantly confirmed the apparent correlation 400 a week, or one every half hour. We are dealing with between certain types of violent crime and inequality? a major problem, although it is more confined to some It is not just a question of deprivation equalling violence; communities than to others. the sharp impact of inequalities in society unfortunately The Select Committee’s report highlights the also has an influence on how some people behave. contradictions that exist between some of the figures that are available. There have certainly been improvements Chris Grayling: The hon. Lady makes an important in some areas covered by Government programmes, point, which she might elaborate on if she makes a although I must say that I should have been worried if speech later. there had not been, given the money that has been spent. Equally, however, there is an inescapable pattern The truth is that those who join gangs often come that illustrates the scale of the problem. from the most difficult family backgrounds—from an The Committee points out that there has been a big environment where they feel neglected and unwanted. increase in the number of knife injuries since the mid-1990s, Gang membership brings a perverse sense of belonging as is made clear by hospital episode statistics, and that that they might not ever have got at home. It also the biggest increase has taken place since 2006. There is exposes them to the danger of being exploited by the also an alarmingly high propensity to carry knives. A hardcore who build gangs around them, and increasingly 2008 MORI youth survey indicated that 31 per cent. of by organised criminals who exploit local gangs for 11 to 16-year-olds in mainstream education and 61 per illegal trade, particularly in drugs. Some younger children cent. of excluded young people had carried a weapon at are also vulnerable to being used by older gang members some point during the preceding year. Of course those as caddies and—I know this from talking to young figures are bound to mask some legitimate activity, such people in such circumstances—for carrying and hiding as the carrying of a penknife by a boy scout, but the firearms. The Select Committee was right to seek overall picture is nevertheless unhappy. The Committee information from the Home Office about the number of also points out that random knife crime against strangers prosecutions in relation to caddies under the Violent is relatively rare, although the terrible attack in Grimsby Crime Reduction Act 2006, and I hope the Home this week is an indication that it remains a threat. Secretary will make reference to this issue in his speech. I believe—and here my view may differ slightly from the Select Committee’s interpretation—that the real Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. problem lies in the gang culture in many areas. Whether Gentleman is making a thoughtful contribution. I do kids carry knives because they are in gangs or because not disagree with any of his points about what kinds of they are afraid of gangs—the point made by the hon. young people are most likely to become gang members, Member for Regent’s Park and Kensington, North but in my constituency I have been particularly concerned (Ms Buck)—in many areas it is the gang culture that about the dynamics of gang activity. We wanted to set drives the problem, and I think that we must break up a youth facility in a school that crossed a geographical that gang culture if we are to deal with the problem of boundary, but many young people in my community—both knife crime. those who did belong to gangs and those who did not—were not prepared to cross it. We have to understand more about gang dynamics if we are to make an impact Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): As I am sure on this problem. my hon. Friend accepts, gang culture exists not only out in the community but, increasingly, on the young offender prison estate. On admission to custody, the first thing Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman makes an important that young offenders almost certainly do is join a gang, point, and it illustrates why we must have community which causes tremendous trouble on the estate. groups on the ground engaging in these problems. They understand the problems best, and former gang members Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend makes an important can also be a powerful influence in trying to encourage point. He knows about the reality of the situation from young people who are a part of gangs away from them. his professional experience, and he has taken an active They, more than anyone else, understand gang culture. interest in young offender institutions, their workings I am also in no doubt that tougher police action to and their failings. I have visited a number of such smash up gangs is necessary. We have to break up the institutions, and I share his concern about the fact hardcore, and also, in a constructive way, peel away that the gang culture is being perpetuated within those around the fringes. Those two elements of the prison walls—as, indeed, are some other problems that strategy are extremely important. To that end, the Select we face. Committee has made a number of valuable suggestions. 661 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 662

I do not agree with every one of its recommendations, programme of early interventions designed to stop young but I think the report should provide a reference point people going off the rails without their being pushed for debating the issues. straight into the criminal justice system and getting a I was particularly struck by the Committee’s comments criminal record that will blight their future. Far too about the influence of violent videos and video games often interventions are made too late in a teenager’s life on those with a propensity to violence. In most cases for and by the time the criminal justice system is brought most children, playing a violent video game is not going into play irreversible behaviours have built themselves to turn them into a knife-wielding troublemaker, but for into that person’s life. some it clearly can. The Committee’s comments about That does not mean that young people should not the presence of such material in detention institutions face the full force of the law if they have committed a also raised a concern. serious offence—there will always be a need for some to The Committee is right to highlight the need both to be arrested and prosecuted because they have done break down barriers between young people and the so—but earlier, lighter and more straightforward police and to address the reasons some young people interventions should be available to try to rein them seek “respect” on the streets. I also agree with it on the back. As the Home Secretary will know, I have argued need for improved intervention at the point where a for a 21st century version of the clip round the ear: a young person is excluded from school. However, there is series of swift, fair measures that can be deployed more in my view one area that can make a particularly great nimbly than some of the cumbersome measures that are difference. In my evidence to the Select Committee, I in place. That was what the Government originally focused on the need for early intervention. I believe that intended with antisocial behaviour orders, but in the a successful battle against emerging antisocial behaviour end they have created a system that takes too long to can play an important role in combating more serious implement. offences, particularly knife crime. As a society we do Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): The hon. Gentleman not intervene early enough to say no to a young miscreant. mentioned the importance of using serious penalties Most serious knife criminals are young men in their when necessary, so are the official Opposition still in later teens, but all the anecdotal evidence I have been favour of a presumption of a custodial sentence for all given is that they are often the same young men who knife carriers? three or four years earlier were responsible for less serious acts of antisocial behaviour in their communities. Chris Grayling: If the hon. Gentleman will bear with Not every 13 or 14-year-old troublemaker goes on to me, I will address that specific point a little later in my commit more serious offences—far from it—but some remarks—I will answer his question. do, and we could do more to stop them. What we have proposed at this stage of the process is giving the police simple powers—working with a local Ms Buck: Does the hon. Gentleman agree, therefore, magistrate—to issue grounding orders to young that we should be ensuring at least a guarantee of troublemakers and to apply simple community service continuance, but preferably an expansion, of some of penalties that do not give those young people a long-term the early intervention programmes that we have been criminal record. There will, of course, be instances developing, such as the youth intervention programmes where people break the law and use a knife to attack and the youth offending teams? We have rolled out a someone, and we need to have punishments available to range of early intervention schemes in recent years and break this cycle. That is why we also need tougher their continuation is utterly reliant on Government enforcement and sentencing. The precursor of a tougher funding. approach on knife crime is getting more police officers out from behind desks and on to the streets, which is Chris Grayling: I shall go on to say a little more about why it is so important that the Home Secretary continues how we need a mix of intervention to rein back and to see through, and accelerates, the process of reducing constructive engagement. police bureaucracy and paperwork, and why he will find, as he takes on his new job, that progress in some Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I congratulate areas has been too slow. I hope that he will be able to my hon. Friend on his remarks—he is absolutely right accelerate things. about this antisocial behaviour point. My local police in We also need to get much tougher when sentencing Kettering have told me that they know who all the young people who are caught carrying knives or who teenage troublemakers are and they are becoming commit other knife crimes. The issue of whether sentences increasingly frustrated that they do not really have the should be custodial was extensively debated by the powers to deal with the problem effectively. The Home Select Committee—and with me when I gave evidence Office is rolling out the fixed penalty notice scheme in to it. I do not think that the current system imposes six police forces around the country, whereby they will sufficiently stiff penalties. That must change because we able to issue notices to teenagers below the age of 16. need to create an environment where the default is not That is not available at the moment in Northamptonshire, to carry a knife and where there is a big risk in carrying but it is a tool that the local police would very much like a knife, so that those who are more likely to offend do to have, because they could use it to deal effectively with not do so and those who are afraid do not need to do so. the ringleaders and troublemakers among teenage groups. The starting point should be that anyone carrying a knife without a reasonable excuse should expect to be Chris Grayling: I agree with my hon. Friend that we prosecuted—there are still those who are let off with a need simple powers to be able to intervene early; indeed, caution. We should make it clear that people convicted I was going to set out some of the ways in which such of carrying a knife should expect to receive a custodial change might work. We need a quicker, more comprehensive sentence. 663 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 664

[Chris Grayling] Chris Grayling: I would be open to all ideas as to how we can restrict the sale of knives to young people, and I made the point to the Select Committee that the many retailers seek to do that. The problem is that it is presumption should be that offenders will be sent to not difficult for someone to buy a Sabatier kitchen knife jail. The minimum sentence should be a community from Sainsbury’s, pass it to one of the kids in their gang penalty, with the offender doing positive work in the and go out and cause mayhem. That is the challenge—in community, not a fine or a caution. We should not our society, a knife is not a difficult thing to get hold of. remove all discretion from the courts, the Crown Prosecution We can take every step we want to restrict their sale, but Service or the police, but if the norm is a tough penalty ultimately that is a big problem for us. it will have the effect of deterring many people from There is one other area in which we need much carrying knives in the first place and removing the tougher action. Drug dealing is endemic in many areas pressure to carry them that some feel. affected by knife crime. The Government have given out mixed messages about drugs in recent years, not just on Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): My hon. Friend classification but on sentencing policy and implementation. makes an important point. Part of what is needed is The truth is that we let off a significant proportion of certainty, so that people who are committing crimes drug dealers with just a caution, even those dealing in know what will be the consequence if they are caught. class A drugs such as heroin. That cannot be right, and Part of the problem is that too many community sentences it must change. such as the intensive supervision and surveillance programme see routine breaches that do not lead to any The Home Affairs Committee was absolutely right comeback on the offender. Does he agree that there is a about the need for projects that engage and distract danger that that builds in a sense that people can break young people. We need both the carrot and the stick to the rules and get away with it? deal with the problems of youth crime and knife crime. Up and down the country really worthwhile youth Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. projects are helping, particularly in areas of deprivation There is a danger in the criminal justice system that we where serious trouble and criminality can develop. There do not see things through, whether it is the enforcement is the Frontline church’s youth work in Liverpool, Friday of an antisocial behaviour order or the enforcement of night football in Hampshire—in the constituency of the a community penalty. If people see that they can get hon. Member for Eastleigh, where I commend the work away with things, they will not respect the law. It is being done by his local police—and martial arts work in fundamentally important that if there is a penalty, we Derbyshire. Those are all examples that I have seen in see it through and do not just let it lapse. recent months of work being done to engage young people and get them away from an environment in Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): On which they may get into trouble. penalties, will the shadow Home Secretary indicate what he believes the age of criminal responsibility Mr. Hollobone: To add to my hon. Friend’s list, may I should be? mention young firefighter schemes? Another big problem area of teenage crime is arson, particularly of school Chris Grayling: I see no reason to change the age of premises. Active participation in such schemes kills two criminal responsibility at the moment, but I want those birds with one stone. who carry knives around in their teenage years to be brought before the law and dealt with accordingly. Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree, and I pay tribute I do not want a seven-year-old who is being used as a to fire services up and down the country that, along caddy to be prosecuted, I want the person using them with their more straightforward work of putting out as a caddy to be prosecuted. That is how the law fires and cutting people out of wrecked cars, are doing should work. serious work in engaging young people and involving them in life around fire stations and fire services. They Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) are helping in the engagement process. (Lab): What about an 11-year-old who has brought a knife out from home? Would the hon. Gentleman decide Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): that that was criminal activity? My hon. Friend makes an important point about the importance of youth activity. May I also remind him of Chris Grayling: It clearly would be criminal activity, the importance of youth leaders being able to challenge but if we get things right and create an environment in young people who carry and use knives? Some 10 years which we have tough sanctions for people caught carrying ago I was a volunteer youth worker in Peckham and a knife, 11-year-olds will not feel the need to do so. That Bermondsey in south London and I remember having is the step that we have to take. We must create an to ask the young people to leave their knives at the environment in which people feel that there is a risk in entrance when they came in to play basketball. The fact carrying a knife, and therefore do not choose to do so. that young people participate in a youth activity does The risk that we can offer is a penalty that they will not not mean that they stop their offending behaviour. That wish to receive. needs challenging by strong youth leaders.

Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): Does Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is right, and one of the hon. Gentleman believe that another matter that we the things that make for an especially strong youth should examine in relation to knives is the people who project is the leader, and their credibility in the eyes of sell them? There have been many problems with them in those who participate. If it is someone who has been the past and quite a lot of debates about the matter in there, who knows and understands the streets, and who the House. What is his view about that? can challenge that behaviour, it is more likely to succeed. 665 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 666

The Centre for Social Justice and the Damilola Taylor sentences; supports the expectation to prosecute for knife possession Trust are offering awards to those who lead the most and doubling of the maximum sentence for carrying a knife in innovative projects in deprived areas, and the Mayor of public from two to four years; recognises that the Government London has set up several mentoring and engagement has backed tough police enforcement action in the tackling knives action programme areas, including increased use of stop and programmes for young Londoners that have the potential search, noting that there were nearly 200,000 stop and searches, to make a real difference. However, as the Select Committee resulting in the recovery of over 3,500 knives, between June 2008 points out in its report, there are too few volunteers in and March 2009; welcomes the additional investment going to too many areas to do everything that could be done. As providing targeted youth activity, including on Friday and Saturday Members of Parliament, we can all encourage volunteering nights; and welcomes recent provisional NHS figures showing a in our communities and support it where it takes place. reduction in hospital admissions of teenagers following assaults by sharp objects.” Mr. Jim Cunningham: The hon. Member for Kettering I thank the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hollobone) has a point. We have similar problems (Chris Grayling) for his remarks and his welcome to me in Coventry, and the Rotarians run a scheme every year as Home Secretary. I do indeed remember the last time that involves the police, the fire brigade and several we faced each other over the Dispatch Box— voluntary organisations. They show kids the consequences of stealing a car and wrapping it around a tree. It is a Rob Marris: You won! very worthwhile scheme, and that is the sort of thing that we should consider. Alan Johnson: I like to think that the nation won— Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman is right. For [Laughter.] On any disagreements that we have at the many of the young people who take part in such schemes, moment, the hon. Gentleman may catch up in a couple who come from the most deprived backgrounds, it is a of years. We were talking about variable tuition fees—we new experience to have something positive to do and to do not call them top-up fees—and at the time he and his be engaged in constructive activity. That is why the party were staunchly against them, but now they are carrot—the community work and the support locally—is very much for them. That is probably a prerequisite for so important. the debates that we will have about home affairs. This is not a battle that any of us can afford to lose. I welcome this opportunity to debate this important Week after week, we hear reports of young people issue for the first time with the hon. Member for Epsom whose lives have been tragically cut short or who have and Ewell and his Opposition colleagues, and with suffered terrible injuries at the hands of other young other Members. I do not think that there is anything at people carrying knives. The Government have brought all in the Opposition motion with which we would forward several initiatives, but the danger is always that disagree and the spirit in which it was moved reflects the Home Office initiatives just cost money and do not importance that we all place on tackling knife crime. It make much difference. I suspect that success will not lie also reflects the concern about knife crime felt on both simply with the efforts of this Government or a future sides of this House. one—albeit sincere and well meant—but with the way in which we harness the efforts of our whole society to Rob Marris: I welcome my right hon. Friend to his try to turn back this unwelcome tide. It is important to post. May I particularly welcome from the Back Benches ensure that in these difficult financial times the smaller the Government’s approach to this debate? The amendment voluntary projects that can make a disproportionate before us this afternoon is an addition to the Opposition difference are not the first to be squeezed financially. main motion, and does not traduce it. That is a welcome We have to tackle the root causes of worklessness, change. educational failure and family breakdown, and we have to foster a revolution in what we have dubbed our Alan Johnson: According to the “A.B.C of Chairmanship” broken society. But we also need to deliver the direct, by Lord Citrine, on which I was raised, we would call on-the-ground support that can steer those young people our change an addendum, rather than an amendment, caught up in the knife culture away from it. The Damilola but there we are. I think that that is the right spirit in Taylor Trust and the Prince’s Trust are spearheading the which to tackle this issue. “no to knives” coalition to seek to make a difference. I I am also pleased that the hon. Member for Epsom hope and believe that harnessing different groups to do and Ewell welcomed the recent report from the Select what we as politicians cannot do on our own will help Committee on Home Affairs, which has made such a to create a coalition that can really transform things on valuable contribution to this debate. the ground. I commend the groups involved in that work. They have the support of the present Government The tragic cases of youngsters killed because of knife and will have the support of a future Conservative crime in London and elsewhere have shocked and saddened Government in continuing that work. We all want to see the nation. Reducing knife crime and crime among the day when serious youth knife crime is a thing of the young people more widely is of paramount importance, past. Our job is to work together to bring that day not only because of the need to deal with the very small about as quickly as possible. minority of young people who are persistent offenders and who cause considerable anxiety and harm to their 4.13 pm victims, families and communities, but because addressing the issues that can lead to criminality among young The Secretary of State for the Home Department people is essential for a fairer, safer society. (Alan Johnson): I beg to move an amendment, at end add: The Government’s addendum is designed to ensure “further recognises that tougher penalties are being implemented that the progress that is being made by the hard work of against those who commit knife crimes, including a rise in the so many people is properly recognised. First, on the proportion of those caught carrying knives getting custodial more general issue of youth crime, it is encouraging to 667 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 668

[Alan Johnson] positive, but does he share my concern about a small number of dangerous offenders who are convicted and see that the numbers of young people entering the imprisoned? Does he agree that, before they are released criminal justice system for the first time fell by 9.4 per on licence, there must be a proper risk assessment and cent. between 2006-07 and 2007-08. Between 2000 and an absolute guarantee of ongoing supervision and 2007, the frequency of reoffending among young people monitoring? fell by 23 per cent. Alan Johnson: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I congratulate Although I have not absorbed every aspect of this job in the Secretary of State on his promotion. On the philosophy the last couple of days, my sense is that what he describes of behaviour, how confident is he that all young people is already happening, and on an increasing basis, so that know that murder is wrong and that it is at the apex of is an important contribution. antisocial behaviour not because it breaks the law or The youth crime action plan launched in the summer because a custodial sentence might be handed out to of last year is not only helping to bring young offenders them by a judge but because it breaks behavioural to account for their actions, but is providing more norms and the moral order in society? What does the support to address the underlying causes of poor behaviour. Secretary of State believe is the benchmark by which It places a greater focus on prevention to tackle the young people judge that murder is unacceptable? low-level but serious problems such as truancy or exclusion Alan Johnson: I believe that it would offend all civilised that put young people at increased risk of becoming values to think that any young person—other than, involved in crime or antisocial behaviour. perhaps, young people from the most deprived and Family intervention projects, which provide intensive difficult backgrounds, who have experienced such violence and non-negotiable support for families living in chaotic from their early years—would believe that murder was circumstances, are having a remarkable impact. They anything other than a crime, and a heinous crime at are improving school attendance and behaviour, reducing that. I am not quite sure what point the hon. Gentleman incidences of domestic violence, and improving parenting is raising. However, if it is that we have to reinforce skills. Operation Staysafe is preventing vulnerable young these arguments and to consider things such as video people from being drawn into criminal activity. The games—I welcome their inclusion in the Select Committee’s police remove youngsters from the streets late at night—a report—and that we have to ensure that the message of sort of 21st century version of the clip round the how heinous such crimes are is reinforced to young ear—and work with social services to establish what people over and over again, not just by figures who they further interventions may be necessary to prevent them would see as figures of authority but by peer groups becoming victims of crime, or indeed, offenders. and people in their community, his point is well taken. There are now around 5,300 Safer Schools partnerships fostering better relationships between police and young Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke people, with dedicated police officers working in schools Newington) (Lab): On the question of young people’s to help tackle the causes of crime and antisocial behaviour. attitude to murder, is it not perhaps so much that they After-school patrols on bus routes and at transport think that murder is acceptable but that they believe in hubs are tackling antisocial behaviour at school closing their gangs and their communities that anything is time, giving greater reassurance to parents and pupils. acceptable when it comes to enforcing respect, to territorial defence of their gang or to demonstrating how much of Mr. Hollobone: I am pleased that the Home Secretary a man they are? It is such attitudes that we have to has moved on to the issue of parental responsibility. undermine. When I went out with the local police in Kettering, a Alan Johnson: From all my experience, I think that number of teenagers were causing trouble and the police my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Incidentally, my took them home to their families—who did not want to press office had arranged for me to meet some police on know. In fact, they were cross with the police for bringing Westminster’s Churchill Gardens estate yesterday and the children back, so what more can the Government to walk around for my first on-camera shot as Home do to emphasise the point that parents have a big role to Secretary. By a real coincidence, that was where I was play in the activities that their teenagers get up to? badly assaulted when I was 15. I came from the rough end of Notting Hill, and thought that this was a posh Alan Johnson: The next stage would be parenting area of Pimlico, but the problem was a territorial thing orders or family contracts, and there is a range of other because we were in an area that was not our territory. measures that can be used. I discussed this matter with My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and a chief constable only this morning and I was told that, Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) is absolutely right to say although some parents do not take full responsibility that such attitudes are ingrained in people, but sometimes and act in an unacceptable way, the approach that the they can be reinforced by the things that they see and hon. Gentleman has described works on many occasions. read. That is why I want to repeat that the Home Affairs It is a simple thing, but very effective. It always amazes Committee has done us a service by mentioning the fact me that, before the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, the that people feel that they have to go to that extra level to police did not have the power to take a truant back to prove how hard and tough they are, and how much school, let alone take a child back home. The simple harder and tougher they are than the other gang. powers that the police have asked for are very necessary, in my view. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): I have talked about the more general issue of youth I was delighted to hear the Home Secretary say a crime but, on the specific issue of knife crime, there are moment ago that recidivism was falling. That is very now tougher penalties for those who carry knives. The 669 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 670 maximum sentence has been doubled and those convicted Emily Thornberry: I welcome my right hon. Friend to are more likely to go to prison. The age at which a his new post. My area is one in which the action person may purchase a knife has been raised to 18 and programme has been introduced because of the problems it is now an offence to mind a weapon on someone that we have had with knife crime, resulting in a number else’s behalf. of deaths, ending, unfortunately, with Ben Kinsella’s In June last year, my right hon. Friend the Member murder last summer. Youngsters were afraid to go out for Redditch (Jacqui Smith), my predecessor as Home on the street because they thought other people were Secretary, to whom I pay tribute for the work that she carrying knives, so they carried them themselves. The has done in this post over the past two years, launched introduction of random stop and search among all the tackling knives action programme focused on 10 police young people was extremely helpful in putting a cap on forces across England and Wales rapidly to address the the carrying of knives. I commend the policy. issue of knife crime in those areas. We now have an extended programme covering 16 areas, and have invested Alan Johnson: It is valuable to get that first-hand a total of £12 million. The programme is not only experience from one of the TKAP areas. I am sure that taking knives off the streets. It is also improving that experience is repeated elsewhere. understanding among young people of the dangers of knife possession. As the Home Affairs Committee report David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I am grateful acknowledged last week, there has been a notable reduction to the Home Secretary for giving way, and I echo those in hospital admissions for stab wounds in the areas comments. However, he will surely realise that there is where the programme is running. no such thing as random stop and search; it can be Our amendment to the motion welcomes provisional carried out only when a section 60 power is in place, and figures published last month, which suggested a substantial then it lasts for only 24 hours. Is that not one of the reduction in the number of hospital admissions caused problems that he might want to address—how to enable by the assault with a knife or sharp object of 13 to random stop and searches in areas where there are 19-year-olds for the 12 months ending January 2009 real problems? compared with the same period the previous year. Since the amendment was published just yesterday, a more Alan Johnson: I acknowledge the special knowledge—the recent set of figures published this morning shows that special constable knowledge, even—of the hon. Gentleman. the trend is continuing, with a drop of 22 per cent. in I shall look at that issue, but, once again, my discussion admissions of teenagers with stab wounds during the with the chief constable of Warwickshire this morning tackling knives action programme implementation period suggested what the figures show—that, after eight months, from June 2008 to February 2009, compared with the the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These are same period the previous year. Provisional figures show eighth month statistics: 3,500 knives seized from 200,000 a drop of 26 per cent. across England and a fall of stop and searches. So, we are at least on the right road, 30 per cent. in nine tackling knives action programme but, of course, I shall look at other issues. areas. Keith Vaz: I welcome the Home Secretary to his new Emily Thornberry: In Islington, if an area had particular post. I know that he will be a terrific success in all the problems, the police were given for a limited period but challenges that he will face over the next few years. for much longer than 24 hours the power to stop all [Interruption.] With reference to his kind words about youngsters, and that really helped. the Home Affairs Committee report, which we gratefully accept, one of the key points that we made on admissions Alan Johnson: I do not like to intervene in the to hospitals was that it was important that information conversation about stop and search, Mr. Deputy Speaker. should be shared between agencies. For example, the The Select Committee was right, however, to raise the NHS trust in Manchester shares its information with concern that a small number of young people are worried the police and other agencies. Is it not important that about their safety and feel that they need to carry knives that should happen across the country? That is one way to protect themselves. Senior police officers have told us to tackle the problem in a particular area. that the fact that fewer stop and searches now uncover a Alan Johnson: I am tempted to blame the Health weapon suggests that the number being carried is declining Secretary for the present state of affairs. May I say how further. But, it is absolutely critical that we get the much I appreciate my right hon. Friend’s contribution message across to young people that carrying a knife in this area, which, as Home Secretary, I know I will does not make them safer. appreciate even more? When I was Secretary of State The advertising campaign, “It Doesn’t Have to Happen”, for Health, we made it clear in the operating framework, has been designed by young people, for young people, which is an important document for the health service with that precise purpose. Aimed at 10 to 16-year-olds, and used to be called their marching orders, that it was the adverts portray unflinchingly the physical effects of a tier 3 local priority to exchange information and to knife wounds and have been viewed more than 13 million engage and co-operate in this way. As a result, double times. Of those youngsters surveyed, 73 per cent. said the number of hospitals now provide the information. I that they were less likely to carry a knife as a result of accept that we have to go further, but that is an important seeing the advert. result, given that we made it an operating framework Through the Be Safe programme, 1 million young tier 3 priority only last December. We are on the right people will be able to attend workshops over the next track. five years on the dangers of knives and other weapons. The figures are extremely encouraging. During the We cannot be the slightest bit complacent, and one action plan’s first phase, there were 200,000 stop and knife crime is one too many, but police forces tell us of searches and 3,500 were seized. encouraging signs that knife carrying is falling among 671 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 672

[Alan Johnson] get involved and play a role in helping to be role models for young adults—younger males—whom they could young people, and the statistics on NHS admissions probably help with the benefit of their experience? and on crimes committed support that view. Between October and December 2008, there were seven fewer Alan Johnson: The Minister of State, Home Department, fatal stabbings compared with the same period during my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson), the previous year. just reminded me about Baroness Neuberger’s report on I completely agree with the reference in the Opposition’s volunteering. Also, I know from my constituency that motion to “cross-community co-operation”. Community every year, in volunteers’ week, a special push is made and voluntary sector organisations have a crucial role to to get people who do not normally volunteer—sometimes play in tackling knife crime. The motion is right to that is men, but it is other groups in our community, praise the work of the Damilola Taylor Trust, and I too—to realise the benefits of volunteering. There is mention in particular Damilola Taylor’s father, Richard more that we can do in that regard. Taylor, who was appointed by the Prime Minister in The issue of knife crime among young people is February to be his special envoy on youth violence and serious, and the motion rightly reflects that fact, but the knife crime. tackling knives action programme is showing encouraging early signs of success. Through tougher action on those Keith Vaz: I am most grateful to the Home Secretary who offend and a greater focus on the causes of knife for giving way a second time. We in the Select Committee crime, and through excellent leadership and strong were very keen to ensure that our report was not a partnerships between the police, schools, social services knee-jerk reaction to another tragic death; that is why and community groups, properly organised and adequately we took six months to complete the report. We have funded, I believe that we can address an issue that is also decided that, at the end of July, we will bring the rightly seen by the public as absolutely critical to the stakeholders together to consider the report’s conclusions well-being of our society. thoughtfully. I am very pleased that the Opposition The issue will be one of my major priorities in the spokesman, the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell coming months. Along with the Secretaries of State for (Chris Grayling), has agreed to participate in that seminar, Justice, and for Children, Schools and Families, I will and I hope that the Home Secretary will also find the host an event in July, as I have said, to discuss the time to come along and give us his views on the issue—as outcomes and experiences of the first year of the tackling a way of keeping the issue going and retaining the knives action programme, and will consider what further consensus, which is extremely important. Without the steps need to be taken to keep knives off our streets. I stakeholders working together, no single agency can commend the Opposition for tabling the motion, and I solve the problem of an increase in knife crime. commend the amendment to the House.

Alan Johnson: That is a very important development. Around that time, after the first year of the tackling 4.37 pm knives action programme, we will be hosting an event, Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): I, too, very much so perhaps we could combine the two in some way. I welcome the tone and the approach taken by the official shall talk to my right hon. Friend about that. Opposition, who have given us an opportunity to discuss It has been acknowledged that projects that work this key issue. I also very much welcome the approach with young people and provide peer mentoring, diversionary taken by the Home Affairs Committee in its attempt to activities, education and training can help prevent them build cross-party consensus, which hopefully can make from becoming offenders. That is why investing in better real progress on the issue. May I also welcome the new local services and activities for young people is so Home Secretary to his post? I look forward to lively important, and, through the youth opportunity fund debate with him in the coming weeks and months, in the and the youth capital fund, and schemes such as the hope that I may agree with him on Home Office policy myplace programme, we are providing a total of as much as I do on electoral reform. £900 million to improve local services for young people. The official Opposition are absolutely right in their The best providers of such services are often local and motion: knife crime is one of the most serious problems community groups, which have a profound knowledge facing Britain today. The number of children admitted of the area and the needs of the people with whom they to hospital having been assaulted with knives has gone work. Over the next three years, we have specifically up by 83 per cent. in five years. That is frankly shocking, earmarked £4.5 million to help up to 150 local groups but sadly there are no simple solutions, as we have that are working to tackle knife crime, gun crime, and heard; there is, perhaps, consensus across the House on gang-related activity. We will announce the successful that. We need a response from the education and health bidders for money from that fund next week. services, the police and the criminal justice system, so I was heartened to see the emphasis on cross-community Justine Greening rose— co-operation to address the root causes of knife crime Alan Johnson: I will give way one final time. in the motion, and to hear it in the speech of the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). That Justine Greening: On that point, apparently 20 per appears to us to be a new emphasis, which we welcome. cent. of volunteers in Britain are male, and 80 per cent. There is, however, still a clear distinction between the are female. Obviously, many of the issues that we are approach of Liberal Democrat Members on the one discussing relate to male role models, or a lack of them. hand, and the approach of the Opposition and the Does the Home Secretary have any views on what we Government on the other. That is highlighted in the could do to encourage more men in our communities to addendum to the motion that the Government propose. 673 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 674

Those two parties still continuously seek to try to outdo police have helped to tackle knife crime, with outstanding one another by advocating tougher penalties, which in success in areas such as Newham in east London, where the main serve to criminalise young people. By contrast, I have seen them in operation. we believe that what is needed is an effective system of However, one of the most effective means of reducing prevention that tackles the root causes of why people, knife crime has not been rolled out nationally—in part, particularly young people, carry knives, and which is I suspect, because it needs co-operation between the coupled with targeted, intelligence-led, visible policing. Department of Health and the Home Office. I am We need to reassure young people that they do not need referring to the so-called Cardiff model, which was to carry knives for their own safety, and we need the created six years ago by Professor Jonathan Shepherd, a support of the community to catch and convict those surgeon in Cardiff. The aim of the model is to improve who threaten others. police effectiveness and reduce emergency department Last year, 43 young people died from stab wounds. Of admissions for violent crime-related injuries. the 773 homicides in Britain in 2007-08, 270—35 per The accident and emergency department collects cent., or a little over a third—were caused by sharp anonymous data on the precise location and time of the instruments. That is the highest number of knife killings violent incident when patients first attend. Those data since records began in 1997, and it represents an increase are shared by the hospital trust with the crime and of a third since that year. There was a 48 per cent. disorder reduction partnership. The partnership then increase in stab-related hospital admissions between produces maps of violent crime, including knife crime, 1997-98 and 2006-07, and nearly 50,000 people, including for its area, allowing the police to track violent crime 4,510 children, have been treated in hospital for knife trends and allocate resources to violent crime hot spots wounds since the Government came to power. accordingly. That proven technique has cut hospital Knife crime disproportionately affects young people. admissions for violence-related attendances by 40 per Between 2003 and 2007, stab-related hospital admissions cent. in Cardiff. That information is from a peer-reviewed for under-16s increased by 63 per cent. The Youth study: it is good, hard, solid evidence. In Cardiff’s Justice Board’s 2008 MORI youth survey found that Home Office family of 15 similar cities, it went from 17 per cent. of 11 to 16-year-olds in mainstream education mid-table in 2002 to safest city in May 2007. In a recent had carried a knife in the previous year; the figure rises study for the think-tank Reform, Cardiff was 51st out to 54 per cent. among young people who have been of 55 towns and cities with a population of more than excluded from school. Some 85 per cent. of young 100,000 in terms of incidences of robbery or assault. people who carry knives claim that they do so for their In other words, the experiment clearly worked. It own protection. began in 2002, and the Department of Health Those statistics speak for themselves. The toll of commissioned a paper from Professor Shepherd in 2004. knife crime is horrendous and its increasing regularity is It was updated again, explicitly for the then Health rightly fixed in the public consciousness as an overwhelming Secretary, who is now Home Secretary, in October problem. There can be few more graphic or horrifying 2007. However, a parliamentary question that I tabled thoughts for any parent than that of their child being both to the Home Office and to the Department of attacked with a knife. The images that we have seen in Health in November 2008 revealed that information on the media of the devastation wrought by knife crime hospitals running such a scheme was not centrally over the past few months and years remain a harrowing collected. I am pleased that the Home Secretary has reminder of the damage that these crimes can do. provided some evidence of progress in rolling out the The Government have made progress in tackling scheme, but when will all hospitals be applying it and knife crime, but the problem remains far too large. In co-operating with their local police services? When, the eight months to November 2008, 3,259 people were indeed, will all hospitals in TKAP areas be co-operating? admitted to hospital in England with stab wounds; that My office had to submit a freedom of information was a fall of 9 per cent. on the same period in the request to all English NHS trusts, which revealed that previous year, but it still represents a very substantial as of today, of 135 relevant trusts that answered level. Furthermore, 604 of the victims were teenagers. my request, only 29 share data in this way—just over The tentative improvements are welcome, but they 21 per cent. are far from being enough. Despite the evident escalation I am pleased that the Home Affairs Committee has in the problem during the Government’s period in power, picked up on this point, which I made to it in evidence. Ministers have clearly not given the sustained priority At paragraph 39 of its conclusions, it says: to tackling the problem that it deserves. We had some “We were disappointed to learn that this has not been fully sense of the issue in the exchange between the Chairman implemented throughout England and Wales and recommend of the Home Affairs Committee and the Home Secretary that this is done immediately. All agencies within partnerships earlier in this debate, but to our continuing amazement should have an equal duty to share.” Ministers have not fully implemented tactics that have This should not be a political issue: it is very straightforward. been proven to work dramatically to reduce the problem. We know that the scheme leads to dramatic falls in I shall come back to that issue in detail. cutting knife crime—it is an easy hit—but it has one The effective policing of knife crime is about intelligence- major snag: it involves two Government Departments led stop and search. Many people on estates where the working together on a matter of overwhelming priority problem is most serious know exactly who the menace for the public, and I am afraid that until now they have is, but they are afraid to say. Visible and approachable signally failed to do so. policing is essential, not just for reassurance—as I said, many young people carry knives because they are afraid, Alan Johnson: Will the hon. Gentleman place on not because they intend to use them—but for intelligence record, for the sake of my successor as Health Secretary, gathering. Metal detecting arches and wands used by that he is saying that we should insist from the centre 675 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 676

[Alan Johnson] included data specifically on knife crime only from July 2008, even though statistics for hospital admissions that every local acute trust must adopt this system? I say show that the problem has been escalating for several that because I have spent the past two years being years. lectured by Liberal Democrat Front Benchers about the The Government have consistently failed, on almost need to devolve power to the front line and not to every count, to take opportunities to tackle head on the engage in central direction. problem of rising knife crime. Meanwhile, the public debate about tackling knife crime between the Government Chris Huhne: That is an absolutely splendid smokescreen and the official Opposition still revolves around tougher from the former Secretary of State for Health, not least punishment. We had confirmation of that today. The because he knows very well that the only elected person Conservatives believe that the current system lets people in charge of the national health service is the Secretary off too lightly and that anyone convicted of possessing of State for Health. I am convinced that if the NHS had a knife should expect a custodial sentence. The hon. accountability to elected people on the lines proposed Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) confirmed by the Liberal Democrats the change would have been that in his speech—it was not in the motion. The right far more dramatic. People want knife crime to be tackled, hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) has said: and they do not want a load of excuses from one part of “If you are carrying a knife and you are caught, you should Government about not delivering on an objective set by expect to go to prison. Plain, simple, clear.” another part of Government. However, the official Opposition have obviously not Keith Vaz: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the evidence done their sums. Based on the annual cost of imprisoning that he gave to the Select Committee and the useful somebody, the number of extra prison places that would comments that he made about Cardiff. I agree with him. be needed and the estimated number of new prisoners Of course it is important that local areas should make as a result of the policy, we calculate that they are decisions on their own, but where, as in this respect, looking at a cost of £4.9 billion a year. The policy, from there is a clear-cut case for the sharing of information a party that has pledged to cut all sorts of taxes in a because it will help other agencies to ensure that knife recession—corporation tax, inheritance tax, VAT, national crime is reduced, it is important that the Government insurance temporarily, stamp duty—would be the equivalent accept that recommendation and implement it. of adding a penny on the basic rate of income tax. If the official Opposition would not pay for it through a Chris Huhne: Absolutely.We have had so many examples, tax rise, will the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell tell over so many years, of this extraordinary Gosplan us how they would fund it? He is not attempting to rise centralism applied to the NHS and to many other to provide some explanation. public services, in theory delivering the same standard Putting the policy’s questionable arithmetic aside, it of service across the country but completely failing to also ignores the evidence that tougher penalties are far do so because the levers are not connected. Perhaps less effective as a deterrent than catching more criminals. the former Health Secretary would like to come back to A Home Office-commissioned study on sentence severity, the Dispatch Box to explain why it has taken so long for which leading criminologists conducted, concluded that the Department of Health to deliver on this overwhelming there is public objective, which, after all, came as an initiative “no firm evidence regarding the extent to which raising severities from within the Department—from a surgeon who was of punishment would enhance deterrence of crime”. fed up with fixing the faces of young people who were We already lock up more people per head of the population damaged by knife crime. than any other EU country except Luxembourg. Why has it taken so long? The Government launched Knife crime is perpetrated primarily by young men, the tackling knives action programme in June 2008, yet the reoffending rate for a young man serving a first part of which was to implement data sharing between custodial sentence is 92 per cent. hospitals and the police. In none of the nine TKAP areas were all A and E departments sharing data in that David T.C. Davies: I am sure that everyone is getting a way, and in three areas—Essex, Lancashire and sense of déjà vu at such exchanges, but the hon. Gentleman Nottinghamshire—no A and E departments shared clearly knows that young men serving their first sentence data. Perhaps the Home Secretary would like to tell us are almost invariably given a short sentence and released why even the areas that were running the scheme did less than halfway through it. That is why the reoffending not apply it. There is such an obvious case for the rate is so high. If they were given a meaningful term, scheme—for public health reasons and the objective they would be much less likely to reoffend. that we all share of tackling knife crime. Will the Home Secretary also tell us why the TKAP Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman assumes that if programme, despite its success, ran for less than a year something does not work, it will begin to work if there before being incorporated into the Home Office’s violent is twice as much of it. A much more common-sense crime unit? Surely any solution to knife crime must be a approach is to assume that, if a short sentence given to long-term commitment, not a flash in the pan and a a young man leads to a 92 per cent. reoffending rate, it headline-grabbing gimmick. would be better to try alternatives, particularly since Further evidence, if it were needed, that the Government short sentences are given for relatively trivial offences. have not taken knife crime seriously in the past is the There was one thing that I entirely agreed with in the failure to collect the relevant statistics. The British speech by the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell, crime survey started collecting data from under-16s—a which was his point about the need to head young significant group, as victims and perpetrators of knife people off—young men in particular—and stop them crime—only since January. Police-recorded crime figures from getting involved in a life of crime. 677 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 678

Mr. Malins: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s That is a major point of difference between us and argument about reoffending, but in one way the situation the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell, who talked is even worse. The figures vary from age to age, but the about the presumption of a custodial sentence for carrying statistics show that somewhere between 70 and 90 per a knife. It is already possible to send someone to jail for cent. of young people on release reoffend, which means four years for carrying a knife, but we cannot punish that they reoffend up to 4.5 times on average in one anyone unless we catch them first. What is needed to year. However, he will realise that, because only about tackle knife crime is a lot less posturing about punishments one in seven crimes is detected, that figure probably and a lot more catching criminals by using the obvious means that a young man on release will have reoffended tools that we have to hand. Labour cannot change its up to 30 times in one year, so we are talking about policies and the Conservatives have barely scratched the reoffending not just once, but many times. surface of what needs to be done.

Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Justine Greening: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s that point, which emphasises the need to try alternatives comment that so little is being done. Presumably he is to short custodial sentences—alternatives that do not aware of Operation Blunt 2 in London. In the past year, involve educating young men in skills that we do not more than 2 million people have been stopped, 10,000 arrests want them to acquire, and at an extremely high cost to have been made—a rate of one every 51 minutes—and the taxpayer. That is why I find so unsatisfactory the 25,500 knives have been seized. There has been a 30 per knee-jerk reaction of those on the Labour and Conservative cent. fall in serious stabbings, and 90 per cent. of those Benches whenever there is a problem—“Lock them up caught in possession of a knife have been charged. Is for longer and throw away the key,” which flies in the that a good performance? face of the evidence of what works. Ms Abbott: More than 25 years ago, I was a career Chris Huhne: I began my speech, as I hope the hon. civil servant in the prison department in the Home Lady recognises, by citing the fact that there has been a Office, working on criminal justice policy. Twenty-five fall in knife crime and that the problem is being tackled. years ago, when sentences were longer, the reconviction I find it distressing, however, that some of the easiest rates were the same. All things being equal, young hits on getting knife crime down are being missed, people are much more likely to reoffend if they are particularly the application of the Cardiff model. We given a custodial sentence. The experts have known that know that that model has reduced the number of people for a quarter of a century. When are we as politicians being admitted to hospital with knife wounds by 40 per going to move away from the knee-jerk reactions of the cent. in the areas in which it has been applied. That is tabloid press and deal with what works? potentially a very dramatic gain, and we ought to be making it a serious, top-rate public priority to ensure Chris Huhne: I very much agree with the hon. Lady that it happens. I do not get a sense of urgency, either and congratulate her on her excellent sound effects today from the new Home Secretary or from and his earlier in the debate. I certainly agree that criminalising Department and its officials; nor is there an a generation of young people who have become involved acknowledgement that this is an easy hit that could in knife crime, rather than addressing the reason why provide real action very quickly. they become involved—exclusion from school, fear, peer We will support the Opposition motion today because pressure, gang membership, social deprivation and poverty its emphasis is right, but we believe that the Liberal or family breakdown, to name but a few—does the Democrats are the only party that is able to take a young people of this country a great disservice. targeted and effective approach to knife crime that will What we need, in addition to more effective stop and really work. search and the wider implementation of the Cardiff model, is an end to the blanket criminalisation of young Several hon. Members rose— people. Of course those convicted of serious and violent crimes need to be dealt with proportionately, but we Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. need to stop young people from turning to crime in the May I say to the House that as about seven hon. first place and help those who stray into it to get back Members are seeking to catch my eye, that suggests a on the right track. Preventive programmes, such as a tariff of about 15 minutes? Perhaps each person who is youth volunteer force, should be created to give kids called will bear that in mind. something to do and to provide skills for later life. There should be more youth facilities to stop the devil 5.1 pm making work for idle hands. There should also be more dedicated youth workers in safer neighbourhood teams Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I will certainly bear and an effort by schools not only to identify kids at risk that in mind, Mr. Deputy Speaker, although I know of being sucked into gangs at a young age, but to that your request was not directed only at me. My contact and enrol their parents in the fight to stop that speeches can be quite brief on occasions of this kind. from happening. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Eastleigh For those who are beginning to commit low-level (Chris Huhne). He and the hon. Member for Epsom offences, acceptable behaviour contracts and positive and Ewell (Chris Grayling) gave evidence to the Select behaviour orders should be used, which, unlike antisocial Committee and they can take credit for the behaviour orders and curfews, require offenders to take recommendations that we made in respect of knife responsibility for making amends for their actions without crime. I also want to reiterate my welcome to the Home criminalising them unnecessarily. Custodial sentences Secretary. If every debate on Home Affairs issues is as are of course necessary for serious and serial criminals, consensual as this one, they will be extremely boring for but they should be the last resort, not the first. the public, who expect them to be extremely robust. We 679 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 680

[Keith Vaz] together all the stakeholders, including the Opposition parties, the voluntary sector, the Government, the NHS will take this one as an exception, however. I perceive in and so forth—so that together, we could try to fashion a this debate a willingness on the part of all the political number of recommendations that would be readily parties to work together to ensure that we rise above accepted by all political parties. party politics to find a long-term solution to the problem I did not intervene when the Home Secretary was of knife crime that is affecting this country. presenting statistics, but I do not absolutely share his The motion tabled by the hon. Member for Epsom rosy view that knife crime has disappeared. There are, and Ewell is one that I can gladly vote for. I know that of course, trends showing that knife crime has reduced, the Government have tabled an amendment to it, but I but the headline figures are still very worrying indeed. hope that when the Minister winds up the debate, he Knife homicides increased by 26.9 per cent. between will tell us that the Government will not vote against the 2005 and 2007, and there were a total of 270 knife Conservative motion. It would be good to send a message murders in 2007-08—the highest since the homicide out to the public that on some issues—not all, by any index was invented in 1977. Knives were used in 6 per means—we can be united in our hope to deal with a cent. of the British crime survey’s violent incidents in major problem. 2007 and in approximately 138,000 robberies, woundings I also want to place on record my appreciation of the or assaults. work of the previous Home Secretary. It is in the nature Although there was a bit of banter about the hospital of democratic politics that we do not get to say goodbye statistics, the fact is that the number of patients admitted before people go, even though the hon. Member for to hospitals after stab wounds rose by 48 per cent. The Epsom and Ewell tried to say goodbye to my right hon. total number of admissions to A and E—5,239—may Friend the Member for Redditch (Jacqui Smith) the last seem relatively small, but the percentage increase causes time she was here— us a great deal of worry. That is why the Select Committee fully accepted the Liberal Democrat viewpoint when Chris Grayling: She was saying nothing. the hon. Member for Eastleigh gave evidence: it is no good Manchester producing those figures and Leicester not producing them; they should be readily available to Keith Vaz: Indeed. all the agencies that seek to deal with this important In my view, my right hon. Friend was a first-class matter. Whether or not that amounts to central control, Home Secretary, certainly as far as the Select Committee or central diktat, we need those figures if we are to get a was concerned. Whenever we asked her to give evidence clear picture of what is happening. to us, she readily did so. She was always available to It is, of course, the victims about whom we should be provide us with information, and I hope that the new primarily concerned. If any criticism of the Select Home Secretary will take the same position. I know Committee report could be made—and I make it as its that the Select Committee is seeking an early meeting Chairman—it is probably that we did not spend enough with him; we have given him some dates to consider. time talking to the victims. It is in practical terms I also want to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the difficult to do, because there are so many of them, so we Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker), formerly a Minister concentrated on those who had entered the public domain of State at the Home Office. He has now left the and the people who were prepared to come and talk to Department and gone to one with which, as a former the Committee about their own personal experiences. It schoolteacher, he has a kinship. He is the son of policeman, is important to highlight the necessity to provide as so obviously having the job of policing Minister was much information as possible to the victims during the good for him, but he has now gone off to be the processes of the criminal justice system. If we do that, Minister with responsibility for children and schools. I we will be much stronger in dealing with the overall wish him well. He, too, was very willing to work with causes of knife crime. the Select Committee. What are the causes? I know that the hon. Member I welcome the Minister of State, Home Department, for Epsom and Ewell was not overly taken by our my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson) description of an “arms race”. He pointed out that the to his new position. I have known him for many years in vast majority of young people do not go around carrying the House and I wish him well. He has a tough job. He knives; only a small proportion carry them, but the will find the Select Committee being very robust with damage they do is so profound. The Select Committee him. He has just left the Ministry of Justice with the used the term “arms race” because we thought it an Sonnex case ringing in his ears. As I say, he can expect appropriate description of why young people decided to us to be very strong with him over ensuring that there is carry knives. A survey conducted by the OCJS—Offending, a proper joined-up criminal justice system. As someone Crime and Justice Survey—showed that 85 per cent. of who has come from the Ministry of Justice, he will knife carriers in 2006 said that they carried their knives understand the need to ensure that it is seamless. I do for protection. In other words, the only reason why they not blame him for what happened in the Sonnex case, were carrying knives was that they felt that someone although until last week he was the Minister responsible else was doing so, so they must protect themselves. for probation. We hope that he will keep a close eye on That means that there is a real problem with those what is happening in the Home Office. who are supposed to protect young people: parents, the All Members were right to mention the massive concern state—through the police—community services and, among the public and in the media about knife crime. indeed, schools. We concluded that those four agencies We tend to react to high-profile cases, which is why the were primarily responsible for ensuring that young people Select Committee felt it important to ensure that we did were protected, and that their failure, either individually not produce our report too quickly; we wanted to bring or collectively, had led to an increase in the level of 681 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 682 knife carrying. Someone who carries a knife and is in a some very interesting evidence about work that she had situation of violence is likely to use that knife; that, in done with Essex police. A short film was made by my view, is the reason for the problem of knife crime. another organisation, the UNCUT project in Leeds. These are examples of local good practice that should Justine Greening: Is not another, perhaps longer-term, be followed in other parts of the country. We felt that problem the fact that such people are growing up with there needed to be early intervention. This has to be the sense that they are on their own and must fend for done at primary school level; it is too late by the time themselves in society? The first time they need practical children go to secondary school. That is why we felt that help from others in the community—people in authority, all year 7 schoolchildren should be asked to participate people who may be older than they are—they often find in an assembly or lesson dealing with the issue of that it is not there, which conveys a very bad message to knife crime. them. They tell themselves, “If I’m going to take care of We received some very impressive evidence of what myself, I’ll have to do it myself.” the police are doing, especially in Scotland. We have to give young people alternatives to violence, and some of Keith Vaz: The hon. Lady is absolutely right about the schemes we heard about led to a reduction in knife the problems that young people encounter when they crime. We were particularly taken by a scheme in Glasgow. are on their own and feel isolated. They feel that they As well as being the agency that tries to discover whether have to carry knives because that is the only way in young people are carrying knives, the police are the best which they can protect themselves. agency to prevent knife crime. We shall want to return Let us think about those four agencies. Parents must to this issue, because the prevention of knife crime is ask their children where they are going and what they the most important aspect of any discussion of the are doing. I think it was the hon. Member for Monmouth wider subject. (David T.C. Davies), a member of the Select Committee, who raised the issue of parental responsibility. Parents Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): May I put on record do have that responsibility. My children are aged 14 and the fact that Mrs. Ann Oakes-Odger, whom the right 12. I ask them—not as often as I should—where they hon. Gentleman mentioned, is dedicated to tackling the are and what they are doing, and I ask them to keep in curse of knife crime because her son was killed by touch with me if they are going out with friends. That is people wielding knives? She is now devoting her life to something that all parents need to do. ensuring that others do not experience what she had to experience. As our report states, the Committee found that the majority of knives carried by young people—34 per Keith Vaz: I am happy to agree with the hon. Gentleman, cent.—were kitchen knives from the family home. We and I wish to express my gratitude to him for ensuring do not expect parents to go around counting the kitchen that Mrs. Ann Oakes-Odger gave evidence to the knives every time their kids go out, but an awareness Committee. It is terrible experiences such as hers and that the knives may well come from the home should be that of the widow of Philip Lawrence that drive people enough to get them thinking. The report also contains a to come forward, because there is nothing they can do paragraph on the importance of parents’ awareness of to bring their loved ones back but they can put up ideas what video games their children are watching. I know and fashion thoughts as to how we can proceed. We are that I have raised this issue in the House on a number of very grateful for all the work done by the hon. Members occasions. We feared that violent DVDs and video for Monmouth and for Colchester, my hon. Friend the games contributed to the problem to some extent, because Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) and the those who were predisposed to violence would be affected other Committee members. by very violent video games. As for the police and other agencies, we believed that Mr. Stephen Crabb rose— the initiatives on which the Government had embarked were important. As we have heard from both the present Keith Vaz: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am now nearing and the previous Home Secretary, a huge amount of your 15-minute time limit on speeches so I shall conclude money is involved. We did not feel that the “tackling shortly, but first I shall allow the hon. Gentleman to knife crime” initiative had been around for long enough intervene. for us to say definitively whether it had been a success, and I welcome what the Home Secretary has said about Mr. Crabb: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the need for a review after a year. I am glad that he is giving way. His Committee’s report is a very good and getting all the stakeholders together. We would like to important document, and the subject of gangs is one of be very much a part of that—or we would like the Home the most important areas it covers. Does he think that Secretary to be very much a part of what the Select the Committee should return to this area in greater Committee is proposing to do. However, we consider it depth, because some of the statistics we have heard in important for the various initiatives not to be duplicated the debate suggest that the growth in knife-related in areas. We feel that they should follow each other incidents in the last three or four years is a direct result carefully and not be taken in isolation, because otherwise of the increase in gang activity? the problem will arise of spending money without knowing precisely what it is being spent on. Keith Vaz: We certainly will return to this subject. We Let me now say something about schools. I am glad received evidence from young people—some as young that we have been joined by the hon. Member for as seven—who were a part of gangs and who said they Colchester (Bob Russell). I believe it was his idea that were being used as “caddies” to carry knives for older one of his constituents, Mrs. Ann Oakes-Odger, should children. The nature of gang culture makes it possible give evidence to the Select Committee. She produced that knife crime will increase even further. 683 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 684

Martin Salter (Reading, West) (Lab): It has been a Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) said, at the end of his pleasure to serve, with colleagues from both sides of the contribution, words to the effect that the House should House, on the Select Committee. Does my right hon. try to unite on some of these difficult issues and put its Friend agree that, as we recognised in our deliberations, best constructive views. there is a danger of demonising all gangs, and that I have spoken about crime and knife crime for what gangs per se do not lead to an increase in knife crime? seems like many hours in this Chamber over the past Instead, what happens is entirely dependent on the few years. I have spoken in Committee for what seems activities of the gang, and on whether the carrying of a like many days or many weeks on the same subject; I knife has become almost a fashion icon, before moving well remember the Violent Crime Reduction Bill being on to become something much more insidious and discussed, day after day, in Committee in 2005, and dangerous? knife crime featured heavily in our debates. I managed to obtain figures showing that at that time some Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I 60,000 children in our country admitted to carrying a pay tribute to him because the Committee was initially knife, for either defensive or offensive purposes—a truly keen to produce a quick study and report on knife crime horrifying statistic. following a recent spate of knife attacks in London, but I have also spoken in this Chamber about the very he said that the report needed to be much longer real fear that I have seen on the faces of witnesses in and more in-depth, and should examine a wide variety court who are forced to relive a moment of terror when of issues. a knife was waved at them; it is a truly horrifying What my hon. Friend says about gang-related violence experience. All through these years I have wondered is right. We are not here to demonise gangs. I am sure what we can do to reduce this awful crime, which puts that the scouts would not want to regard themselves as so much fear into so many people and which blights so a gang. You may well have been a scout, Mr. Deputy many of our inner-city areas. I was, therefore, pleased to Speaker. I was not one, but I know that the hon. see that the motion talks about tackling the problem Member for Colchester was. The scouts gave evidence and about solutions. to the Committee, telling us that it is important to May I be forgiven for putting forward some of my provide purposeful activities for young men—and, in own solutions to the House for a few minutes? They the context of the Girl Guides, for young girls—to apply not only to knife crime, but to crime in general undertake. and to young people in particular—mostly it is young In conclusion, the top few things that I would like the men who carry knives. I shall start with a statistic and Government to do—the new Minister may announce ask whether we are getting value for money. all this at the Dispatch Box in his reply; who knows?—are Let us assume that we put a young man away in as follows: ensure better data sharing about knife violence Feltham remand centre for carrying a knife. The average at a local level; implement the Select Committee’s domestic cost of a place in a young offenders institution is violence recommendations from 2008; ban violent video £32,800 a year—a lot of money. games and DVDs in young offender institutions; and provide early intervention. Those are just four of the David T.C. Davies: Would my hon. Friend not points that the Committee made in its detailed report. acknowledge that the net cost to the taxpayer is considerably I would also like better activities to be provided for less than that, because that young man would probably young people to ensure that they are engaged in constructive, be on benefits anyway? rather than destructive, activities. The Committee looks forward to the Government’s response; we know that Mr. Malins: My hon. Friend makes his own point. we published our report only last week, but I am sure Given net and gross costs, maybe so, but I simply that the Minister will respond within the due time. We remark on the fact that while that young man is in will continue this conversation with the Government the young offenders institution, it costs the taxpayer and we want to continue it with the Opposition too, £32,800 a year to look after him. because only by working together can we have a set of policies to which all stakeholders will be able to sign up. David T.C. Davies: Perhaps I did not get the point Let us keep the party politics out of this and ensure that across. It is obviously not costing the taxpayer that the House of Commons is united in dealing with this much, because the taxpayer is not paying for him to terrible form of crime. receive benefits while he is in prison. Mr. Malins: Yes, and of course my hon. Friend may 5.21 pm say that while the young man is in custody, he is not Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): I congratulate committing crimes outside. I much look forward to my hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell hearing his speech on that point. I merely point out that (Chris Grayling) on the way in which he introduced this Government figures show that £32,800 is the average motion from the Front Bench in a very thoughtful cost. Yet we know that when the young man comes out, speech. I also thought that the Home Secretary’s first he will offend. There is a 70 to 80 per cent. chance of his foray from the Dispatch Box in his new role was very reoffending four or five times officially, and perhaps thoughtful. He is clearly concerned and interested, and 25 to 30 times in fact, in one year. My first question, he listens to arguments. I look forward to his period as therefore, is whether we are getting value for money Home Secretary, although I hope it is not as long as from our young offender custodial estate, and my answer perhaps he hopes it will be. is no. I also congratulate the Select Committee on Home Let us go back to the time before that young man was Affairs, whose report I read with interest. I should say put into the custodial estate. Who is he? Where is he how much I agreed when the right hon. Member for from? What is the problem? I have come to the conclusion 685 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 686 that there is a great link between crime and school time? Never mind pumping weights in the gym for a exclusion, and between school exclusion and literacy. couple of hours—as has been pointed out, that just An important inspection report in 2004 told us that makes them stronger and fitter and able to run away 83 per cent. of boys under 18 in custody had been faster. Where the devil do team sports come into the excluded from school, and 50 per cent. had been excluded picture? I am old-fashioned—I cannot help it—and I permanently. Why? It was because they had behaved believe in team sports. They create self-discipline and badly. In my judgment—I believe that others share this teach people to win or lose and to take a knock. I have view—there is a link with literacy. A young man may seen young men playing rugby at Feltham and it has fall behind in class and begin to behave badly. He been like a breath of fresh air to see how it improves cannot keep up, and his behaviour gets worse. He their characters. Team sport is very good for them, as is begins to truant, perhaps partly because of the fear of pursuing the Duke of Edinburgh awards, but hardly being called stupid or because of embarrassment. He is any of that happens in our young offenders institutions. behind, he is out of school and he has huge literacy Team sport is a terrific thing to do for a young person problems. and their self-esteem and confidence. Let us step forward a bit. I have done a trawl around Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman a number of young offenders institutions in the past makes some interesting points. In north-east Lincolnshire, 12 months, and person after person who runs these some excellent work is being done with young men, in places tells me that 80 per cent. of their youngsters getting them to play football, and with young women, aged 15 have the literacy and numeracy levels of an getting them into street dancing. This is being done eight-year-old. That is not good news. Although it is before they offend. Does he agree that such work should not a rule right across the board, there is a link between be extended across the country so that we can get that and the youngster who gets on badly at school and people to work co-operatively and make use of their cannot keep up. He starts to behave badly, has very low energies before they are ever arrested? literacy and numeracy levels, plays truant, gets excluded, gets permanently excluded, goes out and joins a gang, Mr. Malins: The hon. Lady makes a good point and I and does not want to go back to school because he is support what she says. frightened and embarrassed. It starts off with literacy, Now I come to a revolutionary idea. I do not think which is a big problem. that it is mine—I would be very surprised if it were—and When I look at our young offenders institutions, I I must have heard it somewhere. In any event, I have ask, “Well, what are doing about it there? What is written about it and published work on it. I think that actually going on?”Are the youngsters in those institutions sending a young person into custody for anything less getting 20 hours a week of education? No, they are not. than eight months is a total waste of time. I have spoken Government figures show that at Feltham, they get to many judges about this, and my view is that there is seven hours’ education a week. At Rochester, they get no point in putting a young man into a young offenders three and a half hours, and at Reading five hours. It is institution for anything less than 12 months. If he is in just not enough. there for only five, six or seven weeks, he lies low, joins a gang, does not do much, comes out and goes straight Martin Salter: The hon. Gentleman mentioned Reading back where he came from. If the offence is not serious and touched on a particular cause of mine, which is the enough to merit 12 months in custody, it should be causal link between illiteracy and reoffending. Does he dealt with in the community. Only in a period of nine to agree that our current reoffending rates are nothing 12 months can we really do some good and turn that short of a national disgrace? Some 70 per cent. of young person around. youngsters on a first-time custodial sentence in young offenders institutions will reoffend within two years. It Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): I am pleasantly is utterly ridiculous for the first period of internment to surprised to say that I agree with every word that the be short and without training. hon. Gentleman says, given our previous exchanges in a debate on drugs and alcohol when we did not agree on Mr. Malins: The consensual atmosphere of this debate everything. Does he agree that if we adopted the policy comes through again, and the hon. Gentleman makes a that short sentences should be served in the community, valid point. it would relieve some of the pressure on prisons and we could have more training and education in them? In the What would I want to happen to that young man last Parliament, the Education and Skills Committee’s who entered a young offenders institution aged 15 or report on prison education found that all the good 16? First, I would make a thorough assessment of his intentions in adult and young offender institutions were literacy and numeracy abilities. An individual plan would being destroyed because there were not enough prison be drawn up for him. If, as is probable, he had been officers to take people from cells to training areas, and statemented earlier in his life, the statement would form there were so few hours available it was meaningless. part of his papers on admission and would be acted on. I would also ensure, if possible, that he had proper Mr. Malins: Another way of saying that is that if literacy and numeracy education for 25 hours a week, young offenders institutions are going to do real good— and I would make that compulsory for under-16s in there is no point in having one if they are not going to custody. do good—they should do good not just for three or four I am very depressed by Government statistics that tell weeks but all the way through a proper-length sentence. me that in fact our young man would be locked up for What about the last three months of the sentence? 16 or 17 hours a day out of 24. What kind of a world is First, where is the emphasis on resettlement? We should this? That means that he is out of his cell for seven hours have resettlement wings in all our young offenders a day, maximum. How much sport would he play in that institutions into which people who are about to leave 687 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 688

[Mr. Malins] Knife crime is not confined to young people. Gang culture and the attempt to stop the arms race among them should move. The emphasis should be on preparing young people are very serious issues, but the case that I them and the outside for when they come out. These have cited shows that knife crime is not committed only wings should get the family, the housing and the job by the young. ready and should deal with resettlement. There is just not enough emphasis on resettlement. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I thank my I commend the intensive fostering programme, which hon. Friend for giving way. I merely wanted to say that takes place in Hampshire, I think. Families take young another horrific case happened in my constituency in offenders on remand as an alternative to custody. I Luton a year or two back when John Henry, a policeman, would not mind seeing that extended to young offenders was killed. However, from what my hon. Friend has who leave custody. If they leave the custody estate and said, it seems that the person involved in the case to go back into exactly the same circumstances they were which she has referred was not involved in youth gang in—where the home and the scene are miserable, where culture. Instead, he may have been seriously mentally there is no job and where there is no education—they disordered, because— have had it. It is as simple as that. There is not a cat in hell’s chance that they will stay straight. Where is the Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that we are going huge emphasis that we must have on proper resettlement into dangerous territory here. We cannot have a discussion so that people go back into education, get themselves about a particular case, so I counsel the hon. Lady to into a job and, possibly, get themselves away from the keep more to generalities. communities in which they have lived so far? Shona McIsaac: I appreciate your advice, Mr. Deputy Finally, where are the mentors? Gosh, we should have Speaker. I was not about to go into details about that more mentors in life. I would love to see those in their particular case. Now that a person has been charged last three months in a custodial estate for young people with the crime, I realise that we have to be very careful being given a permanent mentor who came to see them about how we discuss the nature— once a week, tried to help them get a job, filled out their CV and went to interviews with them. We have to make our young offenders institutions places that give a real Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the hon. chance to young people to reform themselves and in Lady. I was fearful that she was going to be tempted every respect to come out better than when they went down the wrong road by the hon. Member for Luton, in. We want them to come out with many more chances North (Kelvin Hopkins). than when they went in—chances in education, jobs and hope. Only if we focus on those areas, in my Ms Abbott: It has happened before. judgment, will we ultimately reduce the incidence of crime among young people and, in particular, the incidence Shona McIsaac: Yes, it has happened before. of knife crime. My constituents are understandably very shocked and saddened by this crime. As I was about to say, it horrifically echoes another case that happened in a 5.37 pm nearby constituency. Tina Stevenson was murdered in Hull some four years ago as she walked home from Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): I appreciate the antenatal classes, and my hon. Friend the Member for tone in which the debate has been conducted. It has Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins) mentioned a similar been very consensual, and that is a refreshing change case in his constituency. When we are dealing with knife from some of the partisan debates about crime that we crime, we have to look beyond young people and take have had in the past, and in which there has been too account of the danger posed by other people using much point scoring. knives on our streets. My speech today will not be long. I will focus, in People in my community are in a state of shock, and particular, on one recent case, which was briefly mentioned they need to be reassured that the criminal justice by the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, and that is system will not let Claire and her family down. Because the death this week of Claire Wilson in Grimsby. On of this crime, the mood in Grimsby and Cleethorpes is Sunday afternoon, 21-year-old Claire was walking to that residents feel that their towns have become lawless. work at the Pizza Hut in the centre of Grimsby. She was They also feel that they cannot go out: the randomness just doing what people often do. Apparently, she was of the attack means that everyone is more fearful of followed for a short while, and she was stabbed to death becoming a victim of crime. That has wiped out a lot of in what appears to have been a random attack. Claire the good work that the police have done in tackling lost her life, as did her unborn child—she was seven months volume crime and antisocial behaviour. Sadly, it has pregnant and very excited about the prospect of becoming wound the clock back on people’s fear of crime, which a mum. Her fiancé, Adam, was also excited. is often out of kilter with the likelihood of their becoming That case is one of the saddest that I have had to deal a victim. with in my years as an MP. It is so, so senseless and I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for shows the sheer horribleness of knife crime. A young Delyn (Mr. Hanson) is the Minister of State who is here woman has lost her life, and the life of her unborn child listening to the debate, as he is familiar with the justice could not be saved. Her family, friends and neighbours system. There is certainly a mood among people at the are devastated. The nature of this crime has affected the moment that sentences for knife crimes are far too low. entire communities of Grimsby and Cleethorpes. A I realise that progress has been made, but people certainly 53-year-old man has been arrested. feel that knife crimes are not taken seriously enough. 689 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 690

I want to talk now about a couple of other things, 5.48 pm namely the gang culture and young men. I intervened on the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) earlier Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): I shall be brief, as I because it is right to say that far too many of the young know that many other Members want to speak. I am a men who get sucked into gang culture or who end up in south-west London MP, and knife crime is an issue that young offender institutions and subsequently prison we have felt acutely on our side of the river. Many of us have atrociously poor literacy and numeracy skills. Because recognise that the problem has been building up for persistent young offenders tend to be given lots of short years. Since 2005 it has become more prominent in the sentences, we never seem to address their lack of those press, but that reflects the tip of an iceberg of general skills as well as we should. youth-on-youth crime. That is the aspect that I shall speak about. It has a much broader impact than we see I know that people want to do more in that regard, in the newspapers, where only the unfortunate fatal but too often it appears that the problem is not addressed cases are reported. and the result is that people coming out of young offender institutions cannot get jobs. The economic A couple of trends have led over recent years to the climate is not good for anyone, but least of all for current situation. First, there is technology. Crime has people with very poor literacy and numeracy skills. If moved out of the home and on to the street in the past we are to tackle knife crime at all levels, we must tackle 10 years, so there is now less and less point in breaking the educational attainment of people in our criminal into somebody’s house to try to lug their plasma TV justice system, particularly young men. down the road unnoticed when they have a burglar In North East Lincolnshire some phenomenal work alarm and all sorts of protection for their property; it is is being done by the police with vulnerable young far more effective to steal somebody’s iPod, expensive people, such as fair play football, as they call it, for the mobile phone or all the portable kit and possessions boys. Points are awarded not just for scoring goals, but that people have on them in the street. The people with if, after a tackle, the players shake hands and make up. those possessions are far more likely to be young, and That does not sound much, but the sense of fair play, now they end up on the front line of crime in a way that respect for others and working collectively in a team is they simply did not 10 or 20 years ago. important in trying to break cycles that have persisted Secondly, there is the rise of gangs and the longer-term, for some time in many of our inner-city communities. associated issues of family breakdown and housing The girls are not being ignored. They have been doing overcrowding, which mean that our young people are dance classes. The work is having a powerful effect on out on the streets socialising with one another, when, the young people in our area. 10 or 20 years ago, they might have returned to their It is not just the police who are engaged in such work. homes and been up in a bedroom on their own or with a One of the neighbourhood watches near where I live smaller group of friends. We see children socialising in has been working with young people in one of the more larger groups more now than we ever did. Often, their deprived communities in Cleethorpes. With the young parents are working, so they are not around to provide lads, they have been using sports such as football and as much supervision as I am sure many of them would many other activities to try to break the attraction of want to. gang culture. The desire to belong, which is typical of We have heard the underlying statistics that go beyond many young men, makes them want to be part of a the fatal knife crime statistics that we read about in the gang and leads to many territorial disputes. papers and hear about in our constituencies from our The challenge is to make young people feel that they constituents. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris belong to the community in which they live. Some Huhne) set out the statistics on A and E admissions for youngsters get the sense from adults that the young knife wounds, serious knife wounds and emergencies, people are committing all the antisocial behaviour, so and they are staggering. There was a large jump in they almost feel rejected by their own community and 2005-06 and the numbers rose in the intervening couple are seen as bad lads, for example. Adults adopting an of years, but they have now reached a plateau. Clearly, inclusive approach towards the young people in their we are now dealing with an ongoing knife crime problem community, which they probably have not always that will be very stubborn and difficult to reduce in the done in the past, is having a powerful effect on those long term. Nevertheless, we need to do so. I take the young people. point that the hon. Gentleman and other Members If any Minister could come up and see examples of made about how we need better to understand and such work, I would very much appreciate it. Grimsby- share data about knife possession—whether on knife Cleethorpes on the east coast of Britain is a bit of a hike wounds, from people who turn up at A and E or in to get to, but some powerful work is being undertaken schools and in youth provision, when different community by the police, neighbourhood watch and voluntary groups stakeholders pick up information about the possession to do their best to tackle antisocial behaviour and deal and prevalence of knives among our young people. with persistent young offenders. That is why the loss of Claire in the murder earlier I challenge the Minister to refer in his response to the this week is doubly sad. People feel that all that good British Crime Survey, which still does not talk to people work has been wiped out and has not had an effect. The under 16-years-old. We have seen the rise in the number communities know that the work is happening, but of younger victims of crime in Britain over the past few there is a sense that the town has become lawless. If years, and the problem goes back to the fact that street there is one comment that has been made to me over the crime is focused on young people so much more than it past few days, it is, “What on earth has our town come used to be. to?” It is very sad that people have had to say that. I I want to talk about a way through, however. A huge hope we get justice for Claire and her family, but our amount of work is going on not just in London but whole community has suffered. throughout Britain, and there are huge opportunities 691 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 692

[Justine Greening] away and criminalise young people as a class, inner-city young people as a class and, even, young people of a for young people, meaning that they do not necessarily certain skin shade as a class. I might shock the House to have to go down the route of crime. It is worth saying say that one might walk through Hackney and see a that, overwhelmingly, most young people will not get group of gangling boys lurking under their hoods and involved in crime but will contribute huge amounts to think that they are plotting murder and mayhem, but their communities. On Friday night, I was at the Putney they might just as well be on their way to play basketball. division of the Wandsworth sea cadets, who were having They will be quite pleased that people are frightened of a great time and learning brilliant life skills. I can point them, but they will be trotting behind their mother to to another project in my constituency, the Regenerate church on a Sunday. The media encourage us to jump project on the Alton estate, which directly tackles youngsters to conclusions about young people, but we should not, who are more likely to get into crime and knife crime. so I want to put on record that, although we have our That is an entirely different project, dealing with different issues in Hackney, the majority of our young people are youngsters, but again it is doing fantastic work. not in that criminal sub-culture. There is a way through the problem, and it involves I do not know of many young inner-city men who us all working together. We must agree that, in the short when shopping up the west end have not been descended term, initiatives such as Operation Blunt Two in London, on by store detectives, or who have not walked down a are absolutely critical to addressing today’s problem. street and had women clutch their bags closer to their However, my hon. Friend the Member for Woking bodies because they have just assumed that such men (Mr. Malins) talked about the fact that, in the medium are criminals. We have to beware of criminalising our term, we need to understand the individual issues that young people in that way. None the less, as a Member lead people down such paths. In my view, the problem is for an inner-city area and as a parent, I know that knife not just caused by learning difficulties, although that is crime and the related issues of guns and gangs are very a big part; much of the problem is caused by aspiration frightening to parents and communities, not least because and what young people in some parts of our communities one can say goodbye to one’s child as they go off in the see as success and the route to success. For too many, morning to school, college or their first job, and by the success in the area where they grow up means climbing evening receive a phone call saying that they have been the gang hierarchy and being seen to make progress on caught up in an incident—sometimes quite innocently. that route, rather than going into business or being That is a frightening thing for parents in an inner-city successful in different walks of life. We must ensure area to live with, because when the gun, gang and knife that, for our children, wherever they grow up, there cultures erupt, they often touch and harm young people are many more visible pathways to success and its who are simply going about their business. acknowledgment. I want to talk about the long-term issues of knife If there is one idea that we should consider as a crime, the medium-term things that we as the Government community, not just in my constituency, but throughout and society can do, and the short-term response that we London and throughout Britain, it is the idea of more need from the criminal justice system. Where does the volunteering by men. They can be role models for the young man, swaggering around an estate with a knife younger male adults growing up in our communities. up his sleeve, thinking that he can demand respect with Perversely, 80 per cent. of volunteers in Britain are the point of a blade or a gun, come from? I do not women, but never has there been more need for more believe that he is the result of listening to music or men to come forward—whether for the Scouts or for watching video games. I do not believe that the culture charities such as Regenerate in Roehampton. Male produces criminal behaviour; I believe that the criminal volunteers can give young men, in particular, the benefit sub-culture produces the music and the games. of their experience and a sense that one can achieve many more positive outcomes in life by contributing Where do such young men come from? They come positively in our society and as part of our community from families, many thousands of them on estates that I than one can by simply climbing the gang hierarchy and represent in Hackney, where young boys are growing up leading a parallel life to that which so many other not just in female-headed households—I would be the people lead. If we as a House work together and continue last person to say that a single parent cannot be a good to debate these issues constructively, we will achieve parent—but in households where they have never seen something that will be extremely valuable not just to men getting up and going out to work, and meeting our children growing up today, but, I hope, to their their responsibilities as men; nor have their friends seen children in the future. that. When they go to school, most of their teachers are women. As they grow up, their notion of manhood is a vacuum. I was fortunate; my family are working-class 5.56 pm Jamaicans, but every day that God sent, my father went Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke out to work, and on a Friday he brought home his wage Newington) (Lab): I am very glad to be able to take part packet. That was my notion, and my brother’s notion, in this important debate, and I congratulate the Chairman of what being a man was all about. of the Home Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend There are too many young children on estates in the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), on the Hackney who do not have a notion of manhood. They excellent report that he has helped to bring to gestation. do not see people—men or women—going out to work I am sure that it will fashion and inform our debate for and meeting their responsibilities. As they grow up, a long time to come. their minds are filled with a notion of manhood that is It is important in such a debate first to stress that the informed partly by popular culture, yes, but partly also majority of our young people are not caught up in knife by the guys they see on the street with the big cars and crime, gun crime or gang culture. It is easy to get carried the gold chains. They do not know that those guys will 693 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 694 have a very short “working” life. They do not know first to be taught to be decent parents. Once they have about the downside. All that they see is the swagger, the been taught to be decent parents who are at home when big car, the gold chains, and the notion that that guy is their children come home from school, it will be time to the one whom all the girls are after. Into those boys’ talk about sending them out to work to stack shelves. imagination comes a notion of manhood that I do not I have set out some of the issues relating to home life recognise, that people in the House do not recognise, that I believe form some of the rootless, valueless young and that my father would not have recognised. That is men who grow up to be involved in gangs and knives. the notion of manhood to which those boys aspire. The answer to those problems is long-term; there is no question about that. We have to look at our policies on Justine Greening: The hon. Lady makes a really good work, and look at how we support parents. We have to point. Often, when such people see role models, they are look at how we work with the Churches. I admit that I celebrities; they are out of reach. They need to see role am not a regular church-goer myself, but often the only models who are within reach, and who have realistic bastion of order, values and boundaries in inner-city lives that they can achieve and aspire to. areas is the Church. Ms Abbott: That is right. The notion of role models is I have set out the sort of home life that some of the often misused. It is not a question of pulling in people young men in question have. Having said that, I can from outside a community and saying, “Look, you can show hon. Members families in Hackney in which one be him.” Youngpeople should be able to see people who young man will tread the straight and narrow and be a are recognisably like them, and recognisably part of credit to his family, and another will be in gangs. For their lives—people who are leading the sort of lives three years I have run an awards programme for top- that, a few generations ago, inner-city communities achieving black children in London. I remember that in took for granted. the first year we gave an award to a young boy from As I say, the process starts in the home. When the Somalia who had been brought up on the Chalk Hill children whom I am talking about go to school, increasingly estate, one of the toughest estates in Brent. He had been teachers are finding that some of them have not been to state schools, but on leaving state school he was able spoken to. That is a curious thing. When I was growing to go to the university of London’s School of Oriental up in the working-class West Indian community, the and African Studies and graduated with a first. His one thing that a person could never complain about is brother was a gang member. Having said what I said people not talking to them; people talked to us the about home conditions, individuals are individuals, and whole time. However, in some of the communities that I we should always account for that. I have mentioned am talking about the mothers are watching television or family dislocation. We are talking about cultures where, listening to their iPods. When such children attend generations ago, children had been brought up by an school for the first time, valuable time is lost just socialising extended family network, but people now find themselves them—teaching them how to use a knife and fork, and isolated on estates without that support. how to work co-operatively. That is at the heart of some I want to move on to some of the medium-term of the educational failure that we see further down issues, and I want particularly to focus on education. I the line. was struck by something that a past director general of I believe that the long-term origins of the social the Prison Service said: on the day that we permanently dislocation that leads to gangs, guns and knives is in the exclude a boy from school, we might as well give him a home. That dislocation starts with young women who, date and time to turn up in prison. I am not saying that although they may love their children, do not know educational failure is an excuse for criminality. I am how to parent them. Their idea of parenting them is saying that the statistics show a clear link between having them dressed up in designer clothes from top to educational failure and exclusion on the one hand, and toe. When my son was at primary school, he was criminality on the other. It stands to reason that a boy constantly complaining that the other little children who is in class studying for his AS-levels is not wandering had a lot of expensive designer stuff. Their mothers up and down estates in Hackney doing what he should were on benefit; I was a Member of Parliament. He not be doing. could not understand why he could not be in designer I have paid a lot of attention and spent a lot of time clothes, but that was the limit of those girls’ notion of on issues of educational failure, and I believe that we parenthood. have to focus on particular communities in a laser-like In the summer holidays, when I took my bus pass—I way. The danger with some of our education programmes am not a driver—and took my son to reading schemes in the inner city is that it is children from the more in the library, or youth projects in museums, or whatever motivated families—often quite middle-class families—who a person could take a little child to on a bus, I would get on the “gifted and talented” schemes. Quite gifted, often find that I was the only ethnic minority parent intelligent, talented boys get pulled in another direction. there. It is not that other minority parents in Hackney Let us remember, some of the boys in gangs may do do not care for their children, but their notions of being dreadful things, but they have tremendous qualities of a parent are limited. They perhaps come from cultures leadership and tremendous skills, and often have where the child would have been brought up collectively tremendous ability. The problem is that we are not by aunties and grannies. Instead, they are isolated on intervening early enough to direct that energy and some estate, and the aunties and grannies are not within charisma and those leadership skills in the right direction. reach. The parents are thrown back on to their own For more than a decade I have organised a conference knowledge, which is limited. on education; it is called “London Schools and the I take the view, I am afraid, that my Government’s Black Child”. Every year, I get 1,500 black parents and emphasis on putting single-parent mothers out to work teachers to talk about the issues facing our children. is wrong. Some of those single-parent mothers need Hon. Members should never believe that inner-city 695 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 696

[Ms Abbott] from home to “defend themselves”. The answers are multi-agency working and more education—and, where parents are not concerned about their children; they are necessary, measures such as knife arches and targeted concerned. There is more that we can do to tap that stop and search. Those measures are important. concern and encourage them to understand that the It is wrong to stigmatise a whole class, generation and school system is on their side. cohort of young people. However, knife crime is a As I have said, I also run an award scheme, and the serious issue and we have to consider the short-term House would be amazed to see the children from some criminal justice measures. It is important for us to do of the toughest estates in London—black children from more to protect witnesses and to make it easier for them state schools—who get 10 As at GCSE, and four As at to be anonymous if they need to be. Recently, I had a A-level, and who study medicine and go to Russell meeting with the Secretary of State for Justice about group universities. As I said right at the beginning of possible changes to the court process to make it easier my contribution, knife crime and gangs are a terrible to ensure that when gang members are caught, they go problem, but we should never forget how many of our down. There is no more important disincentive to a young people—young black and Asian people—even in gang member than the notion that they will actually go the inner cities achieve extraordinary things in the face down; the issue is not about the length of the sentence. of adverse circumstances. Criminal justice measures can be taken. I believe that education is key, but this is a home We have had successes as a Government, but knife affairs debate. However, I could say more about the crime is emblematic of what has gone wrong for a need for a teaching work force in London who look like generation of our young people. I do not want to London; the need to recruit more black teachers; the sensationalise the issue, as some of our media do, but need for more male teachers at primary school level; nor do I want to underplay it. The Government have and the need to target different groups quite specifically, done good work, but there is more to be done—particularly, which I mentioned. It is no good talking about ethnic as I have said, in considering the long-term social minority children. The needs and the results of a Chinese context of the problem. child who lives above a takeaway, a third-generation West Indian child, a first-generation African child, and 6.13 pm a middle-class east African child are very different. Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I Those children perform very differently academically, am grateful for the opportunity to participate for a few so I believe in targeted intervention and education. short minutes in this extremely important debate. I Finally, I want to talk about the criminal justice commend not only my colleagues on the Front Bench response to issues of knife crime. Some Members have for pressing for it, but all Members who have participated mentioned the importance of longer sentences, but for the tone in which it has been conducted. We have what deters the young people involved is the certainty of had an extremely useful and constructive discussion being caught. The focus on sentencing is a problem as about an extremely important issue. we try to fight against the gangs, guns and knives. It Several Members have already commented on the makes the public feel good—“Put them inside and consensual tone of the debate so far, but the public throw away the key. Give them 10 or 20 years.” However, expect nothing less from us—they are crying out for the point is not the length of the sentence, but the action on and solutions to this extremely difficult problem. certainty of being caught. They are sickened and appalled every time they read in the newspapers or see on television reports of the Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I murder of another teenager on the streets of London or thank the hon. Lady for giving way, and I agree with of other cities and towns across the UK. That is why what she has said. The all-party group on child and they take to the streets and march for action, as we saw youth crime, of which I am a member, is looking into last June in London. In September there were more knife crime at the moment. When we spoke to young marches in London and in Gourock, near Glasgow in people, they said to us that it did not matter what Strathclyde. Members of the public have taken to the sentence they got if they were caught. They felt that streets to campaign on the issue and say that enough is they had to carry a knife because they felt safer. The enough. They do not want to live in communities blighted fact that they were then more likely to be the victim of by fear or scarred by street violence. They want to see us knife crime was irrelevant; they felt safe carrying a in Parliament taking action that will prove effective in knife. Whether the sentence was one year or 20 years the long term. made no difference to them. The issue was all about I should like to make a few brief points. The first whether or not they felt safe. relates to the nationwide nature of the problem. Yes, it is true that knife crime is overwhelmingly concentrated Ms Abbott: I agree entirely with that intervention. in certain urban centres, but the problem is also experienced I shall draw my remarks to a close. The inter-agency in many communities that have not traditionally had working under Operation Blunt, and its capacity to such crime on their streets. I am thinking particularly of intervene early, has been important. The use of knife my own community in Pembrokeshire, in rural west arches and other such measures is also important. Knife Wales. In November 2006, a fine young man—an excellent crime may involve only a minority of our children, but soldier from the local 14th Signal Regiment—was stabbed it strikes fear into the hearts of communities and parents. to death outside a nightclub in Haverfordwest, in the Education is significant. There is a fallacy that carrying heart of Pembrokeshire. The community was truly shocked a knife makes someone safer; in fact, it puts them more because people have not been used to seeing such crime. at risk. We do not need only to educate young people; It is true that it was a one-off which has not been too many parents allow their children to take knives repeated, but it created enormous shock in the community. 697 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 698

Such an incident encourages a ratchet effect. I do not I have arrested people not only for carrying knives, but like the phrase “arms race”, which has been mentioned more seriously—and, I am thankful to say, more rarely—for this afternoon, but when young people are seen to start carrying guns. I have enjoyed working with her colleague, carrying and using knives, fear is created in the community the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), and other young people feel that they have to arm who has chaired the Home Affairs Committee in a themselves as well if they are to be able to respond to non-partisan way that is reflected in this debate. any threats. When knife crime starts to spread out from Over the past six months I have visited some of the urban centres and hits communities such as mine in areas in question myself—not dressed as I am now, but rural west Wales, there is a risk that other young people wearing a tracksuit, an old pair of trainers and a will be encouraged to become involved. T-shirt—to try to get a sense of how it feels to live in My second point relates to young women. Yes, the them and whether the perception of crime is matched typical carrier of a knife is a young male aged between by the reality. I am glad to say that I am still here; I was 15 and 19 living in an urban area, but an increasing certainly not attacked. However, in at least two of the number of young women are using and carrying knives four more notorious areas of London, I felt very threatened and being drawn into gang culture. I saw that for myself and intimidated by what was going on. I saw groups of when, three years ago, I visited Eastwood Park women’s young people like those that the hon. Lady mentioned prison with the Welsh Affairs Committee. There I met a congregating at the side of the road. I watched them young woman who was serving a sentence for taking going silent and looking at me when I went past, and I someone’s life by using a knife. The knife crime problem kept my eyes to the ground and kept walking in a overwhelmingly involves young males, but we should straight line as though I knew where I was going, which not allow the stereotype to prevent us from looking at in some cases I did not. Frankly—I am sorry to have to all aspects of the problem and recognising that young say this—my thought on returning from one of those women are drawn in as well. Such young women have visits was, “Thank God I don’t live in that area and my often been victims of horrendous abuse in their earlier children don’t go to school there.” That is just being lives, and when they get sucked into gang culture they honest. find themselves becoming victims of abuse again. My third point is about statistics, which have been Ms Abbott: I see the same groups on my way home, as discussed this afternoon. The Home Affairs Committee I live in my constituency. I would say this to the hon. report recognises that we still lack data robust enough Gentleman: if you were a middle-aged black woman to enable us to understand the true scale of knife-related and looked them straight in the eye, you might find that crime. There is a paucity of good data about the activity they took a step backwards. of gangs around the country. If we are to have effective, local solutions, we need better data to be collected by David T.C. Davies: If the hon. Lady looked me straight the police, other agencies and third sector organisations in the eye in a venomous way, I would probably take a that work at the coal face. step backwards as well. Finally, I should like to draw to the attention of my Is it the reality that crime is high in these areas, or is it party’s Front Benchers and the Minister a report entitled a perception? I do not know, but the numbers of people “Dying to belong”, which was published recently by the found carrying knives indicates that there is a serious Centre for Social Justice. It is the best survey of the problem. People have told me about the trainers hung problems of gang crime that I have come across. It was from lamp posts to mark out gang territory, although I produced by a Centre for Social Justice working group, did not see that myself. In one community centre, they chaired by Simon Antrobus, chief executive of Clubs told me that people were being delivered to the area by for YoungPeople. The working group comprised people car because they were afraid not only to walk but even from Nacro, academics studying the problem and people to use public transport into another postcode district. I working at the coal face. The quality of the group’s am happy to give the hon. Lady exact details about research on the nature of gang-related crime and possible that. There is no doubt that there is a perception among effective solutions is very high, and I commend the law-abiding people living in those areas that there is a report—along with the Home Affairs Committee real problem, and the question is: what can we and report—to the House. should we be doing about it? The hon. Lady talked about her upbringing in what I 6.19 pm think she described as a traditional working-class household. David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): It has been a I was brought up in a conventional middle-class household, pleasure to listen to the debate. I am sorry that the but I recognise most of the values that she talked about House is so empty at the moment, because the hon. because they are the same: bringing up children to say Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington please and thank you, teaching them to eat with a knife (Ms Abbott) made, without doubt, the best speech of and fork, and getting them to understand the importance the afternoon; indeed, it was one of the best speeches of education and doing what they are told at school. that I have heard in this place. I am not just saying that. Those values are universal. My upbringing was conventional I disagree with some of what she said, and she will and middle class, but that is not the case with many of disagree with some of what I am going to say—but she my family. My mother was a miner’s daughter. I remember knows what she is talking about, this lady. Before she going into miners welfare institutes, where one would leaves, I want, if I may, to invite myself to talk to her see great books; they would have whole libraries there. again about these issues, because I am going to mention What happened to those traditional working-class values one of the areas that she talked about—not in her of betterment and education, whereby people could go constituency—which I have also visited. She may know into a miners welfare institute and not just have a that I have worked for some years as a special constable. couple of pints but read quite intellectual books? That 699 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 700

[David T.C. Davies] We have heard about role models. Why is it that all too often, black youth growing up have as a role model sort of thing seems to have died out somewhere along somebody they have seen on MTV driving around in a the way. The problem in many of these areas is not fast expensive car? What happened to the black role particularly one of deprivation or poverty. One of the models who run churches and youth groups? Why are problems is the development of an under-class of people they not looking up to people like that? who do not seem to share the same values that are These are important questions, and they will not be universal to so many of us in this Chamber. answered today; it will take many decades to sort them Mr. Crabb: My hon. Friend is making an important out. However, there are things that we could be doing, point. I do not think there is a difference between and the Home Affairs Committee report has drawn working-class values and middle-class values. It is not attention to a few of them. We heard earlier from the values that have declined, but the vehicle for transmitting Liberal Democrat Members that one of the greatest them to young people, which is essentially the family disincentives to carrying a knife is the fear of being unit: that is where the problem lies. caught. That makes me wonder why they, more than anyone else, have opposed measures to allow the police David T.C. Davies: I agree with my hon. Friend. What to stop and search young people in areas where there is I detect in these areas is an irresponsible approach a particular problem. towards family. Far too often, young people think that The Government—for all that I criticise them, quite it is okay to bring children into this world without rightly on many occasions—have been trying their utmost considering the implications. I am certainly not talking to tackle this problem. They have been moving in the about single mothers, or women in particular—it takes right direction, but there is more that they could do. For two to tango—or about people who get divorced or example, it is ludicrous that if the police stop somebody whose partners die, or who become pregnant by mistake, for carrying out a minor offence that will not lead to an which can happen as well. I am talking about people arrest, and they discover, or already know, that that who have no concept of the problems caused by having person has recent convictions or a propensity to carry two, three, four or five children when they are still in knives, they cannot immediately carry out a simple their early 20s. Those of us who are parents, as virtually stop-and-search because they must have the evidence all of us here are, know how difficult it is to bring up that the person has a knife on them at that moment, children at the best of times. which they will not have unless someone has seen it, or Walking around those areas, I saw another problem— can see the handle sticking out of the person’s pocket. although the hon. Lady may disagree with this. It was That situation is ludicrous, and I hope that the Government fairly obvious that many of the people living there had will think about changing it. However, they have made probably arrived in the country relatively recently and it easier to bring in section 60 orders, which allow had not yet integrated. I am not necessarily talking stop-and-search to be carried out. about people who are black or Asian, but just as much It was suggested earlier that a young person who is about people from eastern Europe. My wife is from excluded from school might as well be told when they eastern Europe, so that is in no way meant to be can turn up to prison. I do not accept that. There are derogatory. There is a problem when large groups of good projects taking place in the inner cities: for example, people who have come from a variety of racial, religious the London boxing academy in Haringey, which young and ethnic backgrounds are all dumped into one particular people who have been excluded from school are strongly area, cheek by jowl, without any attempt to integrate encouraged to join. When they are in that placement, them. they get a couple of hours of sport every day, as well as learning. They are taught by qualified teachers and Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting have mentors who are former boxers and can therefore point. However, I have paid a lot of attention to black maintain a sense of discipline that might be lacking in boys’ educational achievement, and he might be surprised other places. The pilot project has been successful; we to know that newly arrived African immigrants’ boys could do with many more such projects in inner cities to do significantly better than West Indian boys whose reach people before they get as far as prison or a young families have been in this country for generations. Time offenders institution. does not allow me to explain why that is. I agree with most hon. Members that short sentences David T.C. Davies: I recognise that. I am also aware are a waste of time. They carry no incentive to behave that black boys from Barbados seem to do much better and, as others have pointed out, little is done with than those from Jamaica. It is a complicated issue. That people who go to prison or a young offenders institution makes me wonder whether the question of family structures for a short time. A Faustian pact seems to be made, and strong family values is not more important. My whereby the prison officers allow offenders to have a wife is the daughter of an east European farm labourer. relatively comfortable time, provided that the offenders She was brought up on an estate of grim tower blocks in give the officers no trouble. That is simply not good southern Hungary—her parents still live on it—but enough. We must get people into a routine in which walking around there one sees no problems whatsoever. they get exercise, education—basic literacy and numeracy— In that part of the world there are strong family structures and basic vocational skills. That cannot be done in a and a strong sense of community and homogeneity, so short time—it takes at least one or two years. Instead of there are not problems of the sort that we see in some saying, “Let’s not put people in prison if it’s going to be parts of inner-city London. I am struggling to find the for a short time; let’s give them community sentences answers, but I do not think that the problem is one of instead,” we should say, “We’ve got people here who poverty: the lack of social cohesion is part of it, as is the have transgressed, and who will go on transgressing. lack of family structures. Put them in prison, by all means—but not into a prison 701 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 702 that’s just a Victorian cage with an iron door and bars to lay down the law and say, “You will go out there and on the windows.” They should not be left in such places, do this; otherwise you’re going straight back to prison.” but, once the punishment element of their sentence has When we talk to those young people, we find that they been served—if the offence is minor, perhaps that element do not want to go to prison. Prison is seen as much is not needed—they should be put into a college surrounded worse than community sentences. Defence barristers by walls. Rather than roaming the streets, they should never say, “M’lud, please don’t give him a community be forced to learn and get the basic numeracy and sentence, it’ll be far too tough—please send my client to literacy skills that they need, and we should tell them prison instead.” When defence briefs start making such that they will not be allowed out until they have got pleas, I will start believing that community sentences those skills, but that they can come out much earlier if are a worthwhile deterrent. they do acquire them. Earlier, the hon. Gentleman said that catching people was the best incentive. One reason for the police’s Keith Vaz: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his inability to catch people is that the criminals are all out work on the report. He is picking up a point that my on the streets. If we took some of the worst ones off the hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke streets and kept them in prison for a while, the police Newington (Ms Abbott) made. Prison does not always could start concentrating on the rest. Resources are work—the Minister of State, Home Department, my currently spread too thinly. right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson) is, of course, a former prisons Minister—and we must consider alternatives because the reoffending rate is Chris Huhne: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? so high. The hon. Gentleman is basically saying, “Incarcerate”—that is, punish—“but make sure that David T.C. Davies: I will not, because I was told to people use their time productively so that they don’t speak for only 15 minutes. come out and reoffend.” I have heard more common sense from Labour Members than I expected, though the Government could do David T.C. Davies: That is exactly what I am saying. I much more. I heard the Minister, in a previous role, do not believe that community sentences work, having speaking on “Analysis” on Radio 4. He spoke well and seen them in action. Even when I went to see such a the BBC did not do him justice in that programme, scheme as a Member of Parliament, no semblance of because it did not accept the point about the worthiness order could be maintained. At the scheme I visited in of prison. Gwent, people were cursing and swearing at the leaders in front of me. I remember one young offender turning I look forward to working with the Home Secretary— round to one of the people supposedly keeping order although I do not know how long he will be Home and demanding, in language I will not use, “Where are Secretary; the public may have other ideas shortly, as he my blinking chips?” He had not had his fish and chips, may. He may apply for a new job in Government. and she went off and got them for him because he did However, I will work with anyone who wants to tackle not want to queue. That is what goes on in a community the menace of crime. I particularly hope that the hon. sentencing scheme. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington will allow some of us who have an interest to take up her Chris Huhne: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? offer of seeing what is happening in her constituency because we could all learn a lot from her. David T.C. Davies: Yes,Iamhappytogiveway, though the hon. Gentleman had plenty of time earlier. 6.36 pm Chris Huhne: I was tempted to intervene earlier, when James Brokenshire (Hornchurch) (Con): I welcome the hon. Gentleman traduced Liberal Democrat policy the Home Secretary to his new position—I am sorry on stop-and-search. However, it is obvious that community that he is not here to hear that—and the consensual sentencing will not be effective unless it is properly approach that he took to the Opposition motion by supervised, and we need a probation service that does tabling an addendum to it rather than trying to amend that. Surely that is a more sensible way of spending it or strike it out. That emphasises the need to come taxpayers’ money than short-term custodial sentences. together to look for common solutions to a problem There seems to be general agreement between hon. that affects so many of our communities throughout Members of all parties that they are ineffective, lead to the country. high reoffending rates and can be counter-productive if those serving them learn skills that we do not want I also welcome the new Minister of State, the right them to have. hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson), to his post. He and I have debated similar issues previously, albeit in David T.C. Davies: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would the TV or radio studios. I therefore look forward to be right if people were able to keep order on such robust and detailed debate across the Dispatch Box so schemes, but they are not. People never will be able to that we can ascertain where there is common ground do that, because of all the human rights legislation and and where there is difference between us. so on. When we talk to people who run those schemes, I also send my best wishes to the hon. Member for we hear about those who do not want to do community Gedling (Mr. Coaker). I will miss our exchanges. Despite service because it is raining and they will get wet, and our differences, he always showed passion and genuine those who do not want to wear their orange tabards personal commitment to the important matters that we because they feel that it is against their human rights. are considering. I wish him well in his new post in the There is no one in the probation service who is prepared Department for Children, Schools and Families. 703 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 704

[James Brokenshire] this afternoon’s deliberations. He raised a number of extremely important points about the need for long-term The scourge of knife crime has touched too many solutions. Some short-term wins may have been families and communities across the country. In 2007-08, highlighted—the use of stop and search, Operation some 270 people were stabbed to death with a sharp or Blunt 2 here in London and the work of the Mayor of pointed instrument. As we have heard, that is the highest London—but I am under no illusions. The problem total since records on homicide started to be collected appears to be persistent, and, although some short-term in 1977. It is important to note that the proportion of benefits may come from the enforcement strategy, we homicides in which a knife is used has risen to more should not kid ourselves that the job is done. So many than a third of all homicides. The Home Affairs entrenched social issues lie behind the problem that we Committee’s report made that point. need strategies that deliver in the short, medium and Sir Igor Judge, the president of the High Court long term. The Home Affairs Committee report does Queen’s bench, made a clear and powerful statement on justice to that need—that aspiration, that requirement—if the current disturbing situation last year when he noted: we are to achieve what our communities and our society “Offences of this kind have recently escalated. They are reaching need us to achieve in dealing with this intractable and epidemic proportions. Every knife or weapon carried on the street difficult problem. represents a danger and, therefore, in the public interest, this crime must be confronted and stopped.” Keith Vaz: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind The costs are not simply social and personal. The youth comments. That is why it is important that the dialogue organisation, Kids Count, estimates that knife crime should continue and not be based just on a debate of costs the state approximately £1.25 billion a year. I this kind. The relationship that has been built up between commend Kids Count for its work in giving young the parties on the issue has to continue if we are to find people a voice and for its awards, which recognise a long-term solution to the problem. Knives will always inspiration, good practice and good organisations that be with us. So long as they remain in the kitchen and do tremendous work at the coal face. people need them to eat their meals, they will always be When one talks to people who have been directly there. We need to keep the dialogue going. affected by the appalling incidents, one is humbled by the strength of character and resolve of so many of James Brokenshire: The right hon. Gentleman is right those who have lost loved ones. Their determination to that we need an informed debate. He will remember the ensure that some good should come out of the appalling debate on knife crime in this Chamber 12 months ago, tragedies that they have suffered and that long-term in which we both took part. He said then that he felt change should be achieved to prevent more lives from that the debate was consensual, that there was common being cut short is powerful. We all have a duty in this ground and that there were issues on which we had House to make good on those families’ expectations, for agreement across the House. We need to focus on those the benefit of society as a whole and the next generation areas where we can seek agreement. At the same time, in particular. however, there will be differences. We will not shrink This has been a well-informed, wide-ranging and from being critical or from highlighting failures or interesting debate. The tone of this debate and the those areas where the approaches taken are not effective. manner in which it has been conducted reflects well on It will be important to have a constructive dialogue and this House, which has come in for a lot of criticism for debate about such matters. the way in which we debate such issues. However, today’s The right hon. Gentleman raised in his report the debate highlights the House at its best. Now that he is in important point about how we need an informed and his place again, I commend the Home Secretary for his considered approach to the issues and about how, sadly, initial comments and for the constructive way in which the knives out on the streets largely come from the he has sought to engage with the debate and set out kitchen. The previous focus was on knife amnesties—he some of his initial thoughts on how he will approach will remember the almost annual pictures of the knives the issues. handed in to police stations—but they had the wrong It will be interesting for Conservative Members to see emphasis, because the knives largely came from the how the Home Secretary’s thoughts develop and, in kitchen drawer, as his report rightly highlighted. Indeed, particular, how he intends to take forward programmes that was also the feedback that we received from the such as the youth crime action plan. How will it be police. delivered and what responsibilities will it be given? At We also need to focus on some of the implications of the moment, various different agencies, organisations violent video games and DVDs and the factors that and Departments are involved in the project, but if it is might lead somebody down the path of committing to have an effect, its implementation will need to be violent crime. That will become more challenging. One pushed hard. We will look closely at how that works, issue that I am focused on is the move from traditional how developments such as the safer schools partnerships, media to the internet and what that may mean for the which we think are valuable and important ideas, are ability to regulate and give parents the right signposting pursued and how the Home Secretary deals with some about the material and information being used. That of the points that have rightly been raised about the issue will become more complicated. sharing of data and information to ensure that more The insights into the criminal justice system and the informed, effective and targeted approaches are taken role of young offender institutions that my hon. Friend to deal with the offences being committed. the Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) shared with us I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Leicester, were very important. I am struck by the fact that some East (Keith Vaz) and his Committee for producing an perverse incentives exist for local authorities, whereby it extremely good report, which provides a framework for is almost cheaper for them to have someone in a youth 705 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 706 offender institution than it is for them to make some of Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth the interventions or do some of the practical work in (David T.C. Davies) gave his insight, as a special constable, the community that might stop a young person ending into knife crime and the use of stop and search. We up in that situation. We need to focus clearly on that. have proposed some amendments to stop-and-search I do not think that anyone in the Chamber can have powers to give greater discretion to community sergeants failed to be moved by the comments that the hon. at the heart of safety neighbourhood teams. We need to Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) made about focus on that issue to develop it further. the appalling case of Claire Wilson, the 21-year-old This has been a good, constructive debate. We look mother-to-be who was stabbed to death, and about the forward to continuing to engage with the Government impact that it has had on the community in the hon. on the issue, but as I have said, we will hold them to Lady’s constituency. I am sure that everyone in the account if they fall short on the aspirations of our House would wish to pass on their best wishes and communities. respects to Miss Wilson’s friends and family and to all those who have been directly affected by that appalling incident. 6.49 pm Equally, the hon. Lady highlighted the fact that we The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr. David must not lose sight of the good community work being Hanson): I thank hon. Members for the constructive done across the country. I pay tribute to those working way in which this debate has been approached. This is in her constituency and to those, as we have heard, my first debate in my new position as a Home Office working in constituencies across the country. Sporting Minister, just as it is my right hon. Friend the Home activity can be used as a way of engaging young people, Secretary’s first debate in his new role. I suspect that not albeit not simply by giving them something positive to all our debates will adopt the same tone, but this one do, but by being a catalyst to leverage in positive things has been very constructive. such as education, self-respect and self-esteem, which I should like to pay tribute to the hon. Member for can make a long-lasting difference. Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) for the positive way My hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine in which he kicked off the debate, and for tabling the Greening) has had a long-standing interest in combating motion before us today. He made the important point— gangs and the postcode approach. Young people are which was echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for being robbed on the street because of their possessions. Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott)—that She also made an important point about how the British many young people are not, and will not be, involved in crime survey has only belatedly taken the under-16s crime and lead good, decent lives. For those who have into account. become involved in criminal activity, there is often a The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke reason for their doing so. Part of our job as Ministers is Newington (Ms Abbott) made a powerful contribution to tackle those underlying reasons, as well as their about how we should not treat young people as an consequences. amorphous group. I had a discussion with about 200 young I thank the hon. Member for Hornchurch (James people that was organised by the YMCA. One young Brokenshire) for his welcome, and for his gracious person posed this question to me: “If you saw a group tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling of older people out on the street, would you describe (Mr. Coaker), who served in my post for some years and them as a gang?” That young person was trying to did a sterling job, working with the Under-Secretary of articulate the fact that people are grouped too readily. State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the We should look at young people as individuals and try Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Campbell), to focus everyone to see the challenges and issues that they face, rather across government on the issue of knife crime and other than trying to say that all young people are bad or important areas. writing people off. The points that the hon. Lady made We have had an interesting debate today on some were very powerful. extremely complex and disturbing issues. If we could I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Preseli solve them easily, the Government and the Opposition Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) that we need a measured would undoubtedly do so. The hon. Member for Putney debate. Knife crime is not something that we should see (Justine Greening) made an important contribution on as being confined simply to inner-city areas; rather, it is culture and role models. The hon. Member for Monmouth more wide ranging. I have read the Centre for Social (David T.C. Davies) talked about enforcement, early Justice report in detail and have met colleagues as well. intervention and the role of custody, and about supporting alternative activities and family support. We heard a Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): We are talking characteristically thoughtful speech from the hon. Member mainly about gangs and knife crime this afternoon, but for Woking (Mr. Malins) about the use of custody and in my constituency—the quiet backwater of East the need for intervention and education. He talked Devon—we had a terrible incident in Sidmouth involving about partnership working, parenting, school failure somebody with a samurai sword. There followed a big and sentencing policy. He also touched on social justice campaign against samurai swords, although I thought and other related issues. that it did not go far enough in addressing the culture of knife crime. Will my hon. Friend take into account the These are all important issues that we are seeking to fact that the problem affects individuals in more remote address, and we are committed to doing that through locations, as well as urban and inner-city gangs? the youth crime action plan and the tackling knife crime action programme. I recognise the Conservatives’ and James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend makes his point Liberal Democrats’ commitment to these issues, but I well, and I am sure that we will all reflect on how the hope that the House will make no mistake: the Government issue touches so many different communities. are committed to trying to find workable, practical 707 Knife Crime9 JUNE 2009 Knife Crime 708

[Mr. David Hanson] The knife crime action plan initially put £7 million into 13 areas—that has now been extended to 16 areas—to solutions to reducing knife crime and to tackling its have a serious impact on high levels of knife crime and underlying causes. These matters were also raised by the to tackle the issues that we have discussed today. The hon. Members for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb), plan includes the use of stop and search and of search for Monmouth, for Putney and for Eastleigh (Chris wands to detect illicitly carried knives. It also involves Huhne), and by my hon. Friends the Members for extra policing positively to deal with these issues. This is Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) and for Hackney, North about partnership. The plan also involves raising awareness, and Stoke Newington. I shall come to the important and encouraging schools to undertake wider education report produced by the Select Committee chaired by my programmes. Only this morning, I visited Croydon, right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith where I looked at a reparation scheme, visited a local Vaz) in a moment. school and met local community support and police officers who are undertaking alternative activities such Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): I as evening football clubs. They are trying to provide apologise to the House for not being here for the whole alternative activities to divert young people from falling of the debate; I have been on a Committee. Many into crime. people say that a knife amnesty would make a contribution to reducing a knife crime, although it would not be We now have 5,300 safer school police patrols, and the only answer. Would my right hon. Friend consider extra money is going into family intervention. Money is that option? also going into Friday and Saturday night activities under the knife crime schemes and the youth crime Mr. Hanson: I welcome my hon. Friend’s contribution, action plan. Thanks to work done by my predecessor and pay tribute to his service in the Government as well. and other colleagues, £3 million is going into advertising Knife amnesties have played an important part, and campaigns, because it has been found that showing they are one of the tools that we can use to raise young people the consequences of knife crime has given awareness of the need to tackle knife crime and to rise to a greater awareness among 73 per cent. of 11 to provide opportunities for some of the very dangerous 16-year-olds. weapons that can be found in households to be presented to an appropriate authority for disposal. Through the sterling work of the Under-Secretary of When I was a Northern Ireland Minister several years State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the ago, we had knife amnesties and took some very difficult Member for Tynemouth, we now have great support weapons into proper police care. The same can apply from retailers who are signing up to not selling knives to elsewhere. That is an important strategy, and we need under-18s, and we are working on online knife crime to consider it. activity and looking at schemes such as the knife amnesties The issues raised by my right hon. Friend the Member that my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, for Leicester, East and the report that his Committee East just mentioned. There have been 200,000 stop and has produced have made extremely useful contributions searches in one year, which discovered 3,500 knives and to the debate. Obviously, he will not expect the Government gave an element of enforcement at the same time. to respond to the report tonight. We will have to consider I take the point made by the hon. Member for Eastleigh it in detail. In his speech, he mentioned culture, enforcement, that we need to improve our data sharing. We strongly family, violent video games and the use of custody. support the Cardiff model; Jonathan Shepherd came to Those are important issues, not just for my right hon. the knife crime action steering group earlier this year. Friend the Home Secretary and the Home Office but Already, 45 hospitals in the tackling knife crime action for the Department for Children, Schools and Families plan areas are sharing data—twice as many as only a and the National Assembly for Wales in relation to year ago. We are also putting hundreds of thousands of education, and for the Ministry of Justice in regard to pounds into the Department of Health and the Home the responsibilities of the Youth Justice Board. Office to train NHS staff and the police to share data. I hope that the House will make no mistake: the The hon. Member for Woking mentioned literacy Government are committed to tackling these issues in a and numeracy. We have talked about these vital subjects detailed and effective way, especially in the light of the on many occasions. Education, training, sport and tragic case of this week’s knife crime incident involving purposeful activity in custody provide the route to Claire Wilson, which was brought to our attention by preventing reoffending. There is agreement that short-term my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes. That case, sentences are not the most productive use of custody and the meetings that I have had with victims of knife for individuals in our community, and we are now crime, bring home the real and tragic impact of such working on the intensive fostering projects that the hon. events. Gentleman mentioned, and on the use of alternative We need to focus on the issues that have been mentioned community penalties. Later this year, a new reparation in the debate, as does the report produced by my right order will come on stream through the Ministry of hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East and his Justice, providing another step before custody needs to Committee. We have put in place the youth crime action be considered. There is general agreement among plan, which has been given an additional £100 million Members—with the honourable exception of the hon. of new money to tackle some of these long-term issues Member for Monmouth, with whom we often disagree in the community. We are also focusing on the knife on these matters—that alternatives to custody are important. crime action plan, and on prevention, intervention, We need to look at partnership working, and to work enforcement and education. Given what the Government with not only the police but youth offender teams, local have tried to do through those programmes over the councils and the voluntary sector—as mentioned by the past couple of years, I hope that the House will share hon. Member for Putney—when dealing with these our aspiration to tackle these problems effectively. issues. We also need to look at sentencing. 709 Knife Crime 9 JUNE 2009 710

Under this Labour Government, more people are Housing being caught, more people are being sentenced, and more people are receiving longer sentences. We have Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I advise the seen the doubling of the maximum sentence for the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in possession of knives and an increase in the minimum the name of the Prime Minister. age for buying a knife from 16 to 18. People are now 7pm 55 per cent. more likely to go to prison for these Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con): I beg to offences than they were last year. The number of offences move, resulting in immediate custody has gone up by 23 per cent., and the average immediate custodial sentence has That this House expresses disappointment at the minimal take-up of the Government’s Homeowner Mortgage Support risen from 133 days to 184 days during that period. The Scheme, Mortgage Rescue Scheme, many of the Homebuy schemes, outcomes mean that we have secured a 22 per cent. fall and the facility for zero stamp duty for zero carbon homes; notes in knife-crime hospital admissions for teenagers. We that the Government’s planning guidance on housing has led to a have a culture of change, and we have had fewer deaths glut of 5 flats, the destruction of gardens and a shortage of family so far this year than last year. Those are all objectives homes; asserts that the lowest level of housebuilding since World that the House shares. War II exposes the failures of the Government’s top-down and undemocratic regional planning process; believes that the I commend the Government’s work and I thank the Government’s Home Information Packs have harmed the housing Opposition for their constructive approach. I give a market further during the recession; regrets the Government’s commitment on behalf of this ministerial team that we failure to publish a Housing Reform Green Paper; and 10 registers will continue to press hard with our Education and disappointment at the rapid and regular change in housing ministers Justice colleagues to ensure that we drive down the leading to the appointment of a fourth Housing Minister in less incidence of knife crime and, ultimately, the deaths than 18 months. resulting from it. I offer a warm welcome to the new Minister for Housing as he takes up his post. I know that his Question, That the amendment be made, put and background and experience will be an asset to this agreed to. important Department. He actually becomes the ninth Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Housing Minister since this Government came to power. Resolved, He is the fourth that I have faced across the Dispatch That this House believes that teenage knife crime and the Box in the last two years and the third in the last nine increased incidence of carrying knives in many communities is months. I therefore hope that he enjoys better security one of the most critical social and law and order issues facing the of tenure than his three immediate predecessors, who country; welcomes the contribution made by the Home Affairs lasted 211 days, 254 days and 246 days respectively. I Select Committee in its Seventh Report, Session 2008-09, on would not want to bet my house, however, on the right Knife Crime, published 5 on 2 June 2009; commends the work hon. Gentleman lasting beyond the next election. done by voluntary sector organisations like the Damilola Taylor Trust to tackle the problem; and expresses the belief that the I would like to offer the Minister a piece of advice; I solution to knife crime will only come from cross-community encourage him to look at the recently produced Conservative co-operation to address its root causes; further recognises that green paper on housing, which puts forward a number tougher penalties are being implemented against those who commit of ideas that the Government could adopt immediately knife crimes, including a rise in the proportion of those caught for their own housing programme, although it seems to carrying knives getting custodial sentences; supports the expectation have caused a little confusion with the right hon. to prosecute for knife possession and doubling of the maximum sentence for carrying a knife in public from two to four years; Gentleman’s immediate predecessor, who seems to have recognises that the Government has backed tough police enforcement taken our “right to move” policy a little too literally. action in the Tackling Knives Action Programme areas, including I know that the right hon. Gentleman sat around the increased use of stop and search, noting that there were nearly Cabinet table for the first time this morning. He may 200,000 stop and searches, resulting in the recovery of over 3,500 have harboured concerns that it was his rugged good knives, between June 2008 and March 2009; welcomes the additional looks that had won him a seat around the Cabinet table, investment going to providing targeted youth activity, including but I am absolutely confident that he is there for much on Friday and Saturday nights; and welcomes recent provisional NHS figures showing a reduction in hospital admissions of more than window dressing and that he will do a fine teenagers following assaults by sharp objects. job. I wish him every success. Let us start this evening’s debate by thinking about those people who are lucky enough to own their own homes, but who are desperately trying to keep them by paying their mortgages. The Prime Minister likes to stand regularly at the Dispatch Box and claim that he is offering “Real help now” through the home owners mortgage support scheme, intended to allow people to postpone paying interest on their mortgages for up to two years. It was announced on 3 December, but not launched until 21 April, with an estimated 17,000 people repossessed during that period of delay. Perhaps the Minister will tell us how many households have so far received help under that scheme. The Chancellor called the new scheme real help for home owners at risk of repossession, but it is not even available to many home owners. When first announced, the then Housing Minister claimed it would cover some 70 per cent. of the mortgage market. She said that she 711 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 712

[Grant Shapps] been spent on rescuing just two households. The previous Minister said last November that the mortgage rescue wanted to see “all lenders” signed up to the scheme, but scheme would provide “Real help now” to homeowners the reality is that fewer than half of mortgage lenders facing “tough times”. Will the Minister for Housing say are signed up to the scheme, with some estimates suggesting something today to the thousands of families who, it may not be much more than a quarter. Since the having been given completely false hope, have been former Minister for Housing claimed she wanted to see repossessed in the mean time? them all signed up, can the present Minister for Housing Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The Council tell us when he thinks that might eventually happen? of Mortgage Lenders recently announced that the original When the scheme finally launched on 21 April, the figures for repossessions in this financial year would be then Minister also said that six other lenders would downgraded, following last year’s figures, which were shortly join the scheme. She described that as happening lower than expected. How does the hon. Gentleman “as soon as possible”, but the new Minister was kind explain the fact that there are going to be fewer repossessions enough to reply to a parliamentary question just yesterday, than were originally expected? saying that only one additional mortgage lender had so far joined the scheme. Will he tell us when the other five Grant Shapps: Frankly, when repossessions are running are going to join it? at an all-time high, with the only exception being— If the home owners mortgage support scheme has [Interruption.] If the position is this bad with so many not worked, how about the mortgage rescue scheme? families having their homes repossessed—the highest Now this is a scheme that invites registered social landlords number for a generation—it is no great success and to buy up equity in the homes of anybody struggling to nothing to crow about if perhaps only 50,000 rather pay their mortgage. It was announced on 3 September, than 75,000 families are thrown out of their homes at a but not launched until 16 January. This was a two-year, time when there are a bunch of failing mortgage rescue £285 million scheme designed to help 6,000 of the “most schemes going on. vulnerable families” to avoid repossession. Four months Several hon. Members rose— into the two years, instead of anything like 6,000, just two families have been rescued. Perhaps the Minister Grant Shapps: I want to make some progress. will therefore confirm that on the current trend, only The important issue I want to raise with the Minister 12 families will be helped by this scheme over the is what he has to say to the many families who have lost two-year period. I understand that that is despite more their homes when these schemes, which have been so than 4,000 home owners approaching their local authorities headline grabbing and achieved 24-hour news coverage for help and an estimated 31,000 homes repossessed on their immediate announcement, have done so little since the time the scheme was launched. to help families in real distress. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The hon. Gentleman Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): There is mentions the most vulnerable people, so will he explain an important issue here, so I would like to ask the hon. why the motion by Her Majesty’s official Opposition Gentleman how long people had to wait under the makes no reference to council housing, social housing previous Conservative Government to be eligible for or affordable housing? help and assistance with their mortgages. Is it not this Government who have brought the time limit down to Grant Shapps: I am grateful for that intervention 13 weeks? because it gives me a chance to remind the hon. Gentleman Grant Shapps: Under the last Conservative Government, that we held a debate about the lack of social housing in the time limit was 13 weeks, and then it improved again our last Opposition day debate on housing, although I when the economic situation improved, but the present am not sure whether he attended. He will also be Government have brought the limit back down once pleased to know that I am coming to that subject in this again. I am quite happy to stand at this Dispatch Box debate because it is relevant to the Government’s overall and answer all sorts of questions from Labour Members, housing record. but today’s debate is about this Government’s housing record and we want answers to the questions people out Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): there are asking. I do not mean only people being I think I heard the hon. Gentleman say that 4,000 repossessed; we are also talking about people who households had approached local authorities with queries desperately want to buy their own homes, but who find about the mortgage rescue scheme, but data given to the it harder than ever to get on to the housing ladder. Select Committee only last week suggested that only a Affordability is now at an all-time low with average few more than 1,000 had done so. Will he explain where affordability having halved since Labour came to power. he got the 4,000 figure from? Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Has my hon. Grant Shapps: I believe that the 4,000 figure came Friend noticed that since the introduction of the home from the Local Government Association, but I would improvement pack scheme there has been a big decline be happy to check the figure if the hon. Lady would like in the number of homes available on the market? Although to drop me a line about it. that is not the only factor, can he reassure us that such expensive and unnecessary bureaucracy will be scrapped rose— Several hon. Members by the new Government? Grant Shapps: Let me make a little progress. Grant Shapps: I said that the new Minister might What I want to know is whether the Minister can tell want to pick up some of the tips in our green paper, and us how much of the headline grabbing £285 million of scrapping HIPs should be at the top of the list. They are “Real help now” under this mortgage rescue scheme has a pointless, bureaucratic waste of time, and they are 713 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 714 causing so much heartache out there. They are limiting Derek and Ellen, who wrote to me about their experience the supply of new housing on the market, and making it of MyChoiceHomeBuy. Both are key workers. They much harder for first-time buyers to purchase properties. work for the NHS, and have young children. They were delighted, they say, when the MyChoiceHomeBuy scheme Several hon. Members rose— was recommended to them, and were delighted to be Grant Shapps: Before I take any more interventions, I accepted on to it. They started to get excited and to should like to say a little about those first-time buyers. look around homes. They viewed a number of dream Their number has fallen by more than 60 per cent. since properties that they had previously imagined to be out 1997. It is even lower than the lowest figure during the of their reach. Then they were told that the scheme had last recession. The Government’s policy has led to the run out of money. That is not just their experience, but lowest number of first-time buyers since records began. the experience of thousands of first-time home-buyers on modest incomes working in key positions. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I greatly enjoyed Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Did the hon. Gentleman working with the hon. Gentleman when I held the share my disappointment that the Chancellor did not housing brief. He has come on very well in the last do more about stamp duty in the Budget? What would 18 months. Does he agree that, for many potential his policy be? first-time buyers, the key issue is the unaffordability of deposits? For all the promises made by the Government Grant Shapps: There are so many things that need to and, indeed, the banks, it is just not possible for first-time be done to get the housing market moving. I shall take buyers with small salaries to find 25 per cent. of an them in order: most of them are in my speech. I share enormous mortgage. That is one of the key barriers the hon. Gentleman’s concern about many things done preventing the housing market from starting up again, by the Chancellor, and by the Prime Minister before certainly in Montgomeryshire and, I suspect, throughout him, none of which have achieved the objectives in the the country. housing market that the Prime Minister himself set out on entering No. 10. Grant Shapps: Some credence can be attached to that We have already briefly mentioned home information intervention from a former Liberal Democrat housing packs. Only today we have had further proof, from the spokesman—two or three housing spokesmen ago, I Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, that the housing believe. Indeed, I think that while I have been in my market is suffering as a result of expensive and bureaucratic present position, there have been three or four Liberal HIPs. According to RICS, new evidence released today Democrat housing spokesmen, as well as the same suggests that HIPs are distorting the market, which is number of Housing Ministers. leading to fewer new instructions to estate agents at a The Government’s response to the issue of unaffordability time when people are struggling to buy homes. The has been to offer a plethora of new so-called homebuy Minister could act decisively today: he could do something schemes. One of them, the social homebuy scheme, is practical to help the market. I offer him an opportunity nothing if not confusing, conflicting and often contradictory to tell us now that he will use his temporary powers to in terms of itself and other schemes. It offered 15,000 suspend HIPs. In that way, he could give real help to families, supposedly by this point, the ability to buy real people. part equity in their own social rented housing. Well, at this point, a mere 306 families have benefited from the Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): As my hon. Friend scheme. Another scheme, another headline, and more will know, when the Department for Communities and disappointment for hard-pressed families out there. Local Government was looking into HIPs, even the What about the HomeBuy Direct scheme? I hope that then Minister had to admit to the Select Committee, in the House is keeping up with the many different homebuy response to questions, that they were not delivering as schemes. HomeBuy Direct was a flagship £480 million they ought to have been and were having no real effect scheme, announced on 3 September and intended to on the market. It seemed to all of us on the Committee help key workers and those on modest incomes to buy that they were a complete and utter waste of time, and new homes from developers. The Minister told us that that the Department was having to beef them up to 18,000 affordable homes would be sold in that way. justify their existence. However, we had to wait until the end of April— Grant Shapps: My hon. Friend is right. It was clear to 233 days, which is time enough for a Housing Minister those who listened to the evidence given to the Committee to come and go—for any sales to proceed. I should be that the former Housing Minister was not keen on interested to hear what the uptake has been so far. HIPs, but curiously she never got around to scrapping MyChoiceHomeBuy was yet another homebuy scheme. them when she had the opportunity to do so. The new I know that the former Housing Minister used to be Housing Minister has a clean slate. He has an opportunity confused by these schemes; I wish the current Minister to do something positive today to help people. I hope luck in getting his head around them more quickly. that he will take the advice not just of the Opposition MyChoiceHomeBuy was one of two very similar schemes. Front Bench, but of organisations such as RICS and Both involved key workers—first-time buyers—owning many others which say that HIPs are completely and a share in homes on the open market, and buying utterly useless. them with housing association help. However, If the Minister is in the mood to do something for MyChoiceHomeBuy ran out of money just one month people, he should note that almost all first-time buyers— after the beginning of the financial year, leaving thousands nine out of 10—could be exempted from stamp duty. of applicants stranded. That is another policy that he is welcome to borrow In the course of his work as a constituency Member from us. He may know—if he does not, he will get his of Parliament, the new Minister may have received head around it very quickly—that, in a past Budget, the e-mails such as the one that I received from my constituents present Prime Minister said that zero-carbon homes 715 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 716

[Grant Shapps] that it would make it easier for everyone if a commitment were given to put the infrastructure in place that could would be allowed zero stamp duty. We asked, out of support these housing developments, instead of building interest, how often that had come to pass. There had houses in places that are completely unsuitable for the been a fair amount of time for the arrangement to bed people who live there? in, and one would have thought that there would be a fair amount of stamp duty exemption. The answer was Grant Shapps: That is evidenced by the reality on the that only 18 homes had benefited, and that £70,000 of ground. Not only have fewer affordable homes been stamp duty relief had been granted. In my view, this built, but this Government have on average built less was no more than a headline-grabbing idea, and it is housing overall in every year of their Administration. clearly having very little influence out there. What will Something is going badly wrong, and what is not working the Minister do to extend the programme? is their regionalisation of housing policy. Planning and top-down targets are patently failing to deliver housing Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): Will my on the ground. The more it does not work, the more the hon. Friend explain how the Government managed Government think the way to make it work is to push even that rebate, given that they have so far failed to harder and blame the people on the ground. They define a zero-carbon home? That is why the housing misunderstand the reasons why it is not working. People industry is unable to prepare for the important changes do not want building to be imposed on them; instead, that will come in 2016. they want to be part of the process of building their own communities. Grant Shapps: My right hon. Friend is spot on. After That is a fundamental misunderstanding of how three and a half years of consultation on what zero housing works which we will correct. We will end regional carbon might mean, the Government have still not spatial strategies, get rid of regional assemblies—if the reached a decision. That is what is holding back the Government have not quite passed their legislation on market. That is what is making it so difficult for housing that in time—and strip the regional development agencies developers to know which way to turn. I wonder whether of powers over planning, housing targets and numbers. the Minister will bring the three and a half year consultation We will return that to people on the ground, who can to an end soon, or whether he is aware of a recent use those powers, together with incentives, to go ahead European Union decision—made, I believe, within the and build the housing that is really needed by local last fortnight—to exclude off-site renewables from the communities. In doing so, we will outperform this definition of zero carbon. I understand that that has Government’s appalling record on house building over been an issue of debate and confrontation between the the past 12 years. Treasury and the DCLG, which have different versions of zero carbon. Will the Minister pledge today to end Bob Russell: The hon. Gentleman is right to remind that debate, to end the three and a half year consultation, the current Government that the Thatcher and Major and to produce a definition of zero carbon so that Governments built considerably more council houses, people can get on with building homes? and to highlight this Government’s abysmal failure in not building council houses over the past 12 years. May David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): I ask him, however, if it is Conservative party policy to I have carefully examined the 11 lines of the Opposition allow councils to build council houses? motion, and I find no reference at all to affordable housing for rent, whether delivered by local housing associations or local authorities. Is that not evidence of Grant Shapps: As I have said, our policy is that under the Conservative party’s continued hostility to local a Conservative Government anybody who wants to step authorities in that regard, which was all too evident in up to the plate and build homes to house people in this the 18 years between 1979 and 1997? country will be absolutely at liberty to do so. There are good reasons why these policies are failing. Grant Shapps: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman We have talked about the failure of regional planning attended, or has read the record of, the previous debate and the inability to understand that people on the on affordable housing, which was called by the Opposition ground best know what is required to house people in and held in our time. To answer his question directly, we their local areas. The green paper that I have referenced have no opposition to anybody providing affordable addresses ideas to bring in local housing trusts, which housing; there is no great philosophical reason why would enable local people to decide how and where that people and organisations should not be able to provide housing goes, and also to deliver their own planning the housing this country needs. If we are talking permission to go ahead and create those new communities. about the supply of affordable housing, it is well worth That would do a great deal to bring forward new mentioning that this Labour Government, who supposedly housing in this country, and it would do so much more were elected to help the people in greatest need, have in quickly than setting up massive bureaucracies that are every single year of their tenure in office built less unpopular and not democratically elected. affordable housing for rent than either John Major or Let me now turn to a single example in my constituency, Margaret Thatcher. That is the reality of this Government’s where this Government say that between 10,000 and housing record. 15,000 homes need to be built. We are not worried about the building of new homes; I happen to represent Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex) (Con): My hon. a couple of new towns and we are very comfortable Friend knows very well the difficulty in building more with the idea of house building. The problem is that it is houses in the south-east, which highlights the Government’s not right to stuff in 10,000 or 15,000 homes while monstrously bad record in this respect. Does he agree closing the local hospital at the same time. Those are 717 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 718 incompatible policies that have got even the local Labour between 4.5 million and 5.5 million people languishing and Liberal Democrat parties campaigning and leafleting on the social housing waiting lists. It is getting ridiculous with us against the Government’s plans. to be constantly lectured on how policies involving targeting, top-down Government initiatives and headline- Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): If the hon. grabbing news could possibly be the solution when the Gentleman is not keen on having any kind of centralised Government have failed to solve any of the problems or national target, will he cast a thought towards Mayor for more than a decade. We need a new approach and a Johnson’s approach in London of abolishing London-wide fresh start, and we need to find ways to ensure that targets and saying everything has to be achieved through housing actually gets built in this country to an extent negotiations with the boroughs? The result of that is that is commensurate with what people require in local fewer homes for social rent, less housing for those who communities. desperately need it, and a mayoralty and leadership that We also need to solve some of our long-term housing does not seem as desperately concerned about social problems, such as the so-called tenant tax. That is the housing as the previous Mayor was. confusing housing revenue account—or, rather, negative housing revenue account. It is a system whereby 140 of Grant Shapps: When it comes to building far fewer the councils that have their own stock or arm’s length social housing units, this Government have the record management organisations are paying into the pot and to beat. Under them, the net change in social housing just 40 are getting something out of that pot. What stock has been a loss of some 480,000 units, so they happens to the rest of the money? It is sent to the have very little to crow about. In the past five years, Treasury, which keeps it. The sums involved are 122,000 houses have been added to the social housing £200 million this year, projected to rise to £300 million stock, but for the same period before 1997 the figure next year. I know that many Labour Members who are was 257,000. There has therefore been a dramatic slow-down interested in this subject recognise that that is a real in the number of homes added. Moreover, one in six problem. It is a tax on people who can least afford homes is judged by the Government’s own measure to to pay it. be non-decent. As the Conservative who represents the most council Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) tenants, I can tell the House that they look very poorly (Lab): If a local authority such as Westminster was on the fact that up to 50 per cent. of the rent they have therefore to make the decision that only 11 per cent. of to pay goes out of the area. The money does not fix the all housing constructed in the borough year on year homes in my constituency or help to build new homes, would be affordable, should it be allowed to do that but is instead sent to the Government centrally. That is even at the expense of spiralling homelessness and the not a sensible way of going about housing policy and it second worst overcrowding rate in London? is not helping anyone; it is taxing the poorest people through a tenants’ tax. It is completely unfair and the Grant Shapps: It is key to fixing this housing crisis, Government admit that it is a problem. They have put it for which the current Government more than any other into one of their lengthy reviews. Can the Minister tell have to take their share of responsibility, that we understand us when the review will finally report? It has been going that the trick is to build more homes in total in order on for about 14 to 16 months. When will the review into that everybody at every level of the housing market, the negative housing subsidy finally reach some kind of right down to those people who are homeless, get the decision and tell us what is going to be done about the opportunity to live with a decent roof over their head. tenants’ tax? The obsession with targeting, numbers, sub-numbers and sub-targets is not solving the problem; in fact, it has Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I am so made it much more acute. The people I meet when I pleased that my hon. Friend has raised that very important visit homelessness shelters do not say to me that the point. Council tenants in Kettering borough pay problem is that the target for affordable home building £12 million a year in housing rent, £3 million of which is not great enough. They say that the problem is that disappears out of the borough and into the Exchequer’s not enough homes are built, and the people who run coffers. If Kettering borough council was able to keep those organisations say the problem is that there is that £3 million, it could do a lot to improve local nowhere to move people. The root of the problem is housing conditions. that there are 480,000 fewer units of social housing under this Government. We cannot hide behind statistics Grant Shapps: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s such as the percentage of new-build; the problem is that intervention. My local council pays over about £16 million this Government have built less affordable housing and and it is not as if there is not a big housing need. I have less housing overall. said that the Government want us to build 10,000 to 15,000 homes in the area. There is a logical way to get Ms Buck: If the percentages do not matter and only some of those homes built, but taking the money back the numbers for the absolute provision of housing to the centre is certainly not helping to tackle that matter, why is it that a low percentage does not necessarily problem. equate to better numbers, as we can see in the failure to meet housing need? Surely housing need should be Several hon. Members rose— going down when the numbers are going up, regardless of percentages, but that is not happening. Grant Shapps: I am aware of the time and I wish to allow others the opportunity to speak, particularly the Grant Shapps: Since this Government came to power, Front Benchers. As they will get a chance to speak the housing waiting lists have increased from 1 million anyway, it might make sense if I were to make a bit of to 1.8 million families. That means that there are probably progress. 719 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 720

[Grant Shapps] year, over 1,000 households have received free advice from their local authority each month since the launch of the Mortgage The Prime Minister came into office two years ago Rescue Scheme and many more are expected to benefit through saying that housing would be this Government’s No. 1 the Homeowners Mortgage Support scheme and pre-action protocol; further notes that the Government has helped over 110,000 priority. He said that it was so important that whoever households into shared ownership and shared equity since 1997 took the post of Minister for Housing would have to sit and that demand for HomeBuy remains high; believes that the in the Cabinet and attend its meetings, yet, as we have Government’s zero carbon homes policy is a ground-breaking seen, there have since been not three but four such contribution to the fight against climate change; notes that planning Ministers. That is hardly the mark of a Government policy makes clear the need for more family homes and that the who are taking the subject seriously. Many of the Government is reviewing the evidence on garden development; Government’s flagship policies have floundered and notes that the highest rate of housing supply since 1977 was reached in 2007-08 and that the Government has brought forward then sunk entirely. We have seen the collapse of the many measures to help the construction industry, most recently eco-town project. There were to be 10 eco-towns designed £1 billion in the 2009 Budget, including £400 million to unblock to deliver sustainable living around the country, but stalled development and £100 million for council house building; that good idea has been completely messed up by this further notes that regional planning is open and transparent and Government’s implementation and, as far as anybody that regional planning bodies are required to take into account can tell, there is no likelihood of the eco-towns ever housing need; believes there is no evidence that Home Information seeing the light of day. We have seen derision about Packs have any adverse impact on the market; and further notes home information packs, and no progress has been that the Government is pursuing reform of council housing finance and the private rented sector and has set up the Tenant made on the zero-carbon homes initiative or on the Services Authority to raise standards by putting tenants at the negative housing revenue account— heart of regulation.”. Mr. Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): I welcome this debate, and the remarks made by the The hon. Gentleman has made a remark that I hope he hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) at will withdraw because it is clearly completely wrong. He the start of his contribution. This is particularly the said that no progress had been made on reducing carbon. case on this, my second day in the job. The Under-Secretary Does he recognise that over the past few years a remarkable of State for Communities and Local Government, my change has taken place in the approach of house builders, hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Mr. Austin), registered social landlords and other housing providers, is in his first day in his new post, although he has been a who have responded positively to the initiative taken by councillor and a housing officer in the past. This is my the Government to try to drive up energy efficiency fifth job in government, and normally, Conservative standards? Code level 3 is now being delivered and code Members have been kind enough to drop me a note of level 4 is being delivered by many RSLs. There has been congratulation. This is the first time that I have encountered a complete change in attitude towards reducing carbon, a motion of criticism tabled instead, but I welcome this so will he please give the Government credit for that? chance for an early debate. I must say to the hon. Gentleman that I am following Grant Shapps: I certainly respect the right hon. some very good Labour Housing Ministers, in particular Gentleman’s considerable experience in the housing my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South world and on the topic of housing, but I am fairly sure (Margaret Beckett), who is one of the most distinguished, that Hansard will show that I was talking about zero-carbon accomplished and loyal Labour Ministers I have had homes, as in the stamp duty relief to which I made the privilege to serve alongside. I am proud to have been reference earlier. As I described, no progress has been asked to do this job, because our home matters more to made in defining what zero-carbon will mean. I went to each and every one of us, and to our families, than some lengths to describe precisely how the Government almost anything else. It is hard to have a settled life have spent three and a half years considering the issue without a decent secure home in which to live. If someone’s but have reached absolutely no conclusion. home is at risk their life is in turmoil, and everything is This Government have failed this country on housing: insecure. I am proud to be in a party that has been they have failed with their top-down targets; they have serious about helping to improve and promote housing failed to give young people the opportunity to own their in this country, and to protect people in their homes. own home; and they have failed to protect those who are in their own homes but are desperate for some kind Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Council housing of help. Such people have been misled by the promise remains a very important part of the housing stock. of real help now—that has never materialised. The The Minister will know the importance of reviewing Government have grabbed the headlines, but the required negative subsidy on the housing revenue account. Can home building has simply not happened. They have he give us some indication of when the review will gone for the column inches, but we face a terrible legacy report and we will know what the situation is? Poole has of Labour’s failed housing policies. It is now time to end an arm’s length management organisation that is very the headline-grabbing housing announcements and get concerned about what its future will be unless the on with building some homes. funding situation is changed.

7.34 pm John Healey: The short answer is soon. The slightly The Minister for Housing (John Healey): I beg to longer answer is that the detailed work, which the hon. move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the Gentleman and the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield, end of the Question and add: who spoke from the Front Bench, will appreciate is “notes that the Government has put in place comprehensive complicated, has been largely completed. I am aware support to help households avoid repossession, that 220,000 that this issue is one of the big concerns; it is one of the households benefited from Support for Mortgage Interest last big jobs for me to nail, and I intend to do that soon. 721 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 722

The Government have shown—this is why I am proud John Healey: It is difficult to know for certain, and to be a Labour Housing Minister in a Labour we will have a much clearer idea in July when we have Government—a determination to try to improve the the first deadline for bids from local authorities for the homes that people live in, to build the homes that special money that was set aside in the Budget. At that people need to live in, and to help them to stay in their point I will be able to answer the hon. Gentleman’s homes during this recession when they are at risk of not question more clearly. being able to do so. We have shown that during the 12 months of this economic downturn, and during our Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I congratulate 12 years in government. We ended the long-term use of my right hon. Friend on his appointment. Today in bed and breakfast for families with children five years Rotherham—my constituency and his borough—I helped ago. The number of families in temporary accommodation to open a new socially affordable housing unit that will has fallen quarter on quarter for more than three years. provide a number of low-cost homes. That is the way More than 1 million people who are disabled or elderly, forward. or who have other special needs, are able to live in their My right hon. Friend is Daniel in the lion’s den today, own homes because of the Supporting People programme, and we should give him a break. However, the plain fact and more than 1 million families now live in decent is that in the 1950s, his predecessor under a different homes because of our programme of repair and Administration, Harold Macmillan, went out and built refurbishment, and because we dealt with the backlog 300,000 homes a year, council and private. May I suggest left in 1997. that that is not the worst of ambitions? If we build homes for the people of Britain, they will not vote for Jeremy Corbyn: I congratulate the Minister on his the British National party in Yorkshire, and my right appointment. He must be aware that in London, particularly hon. Friend will be a full member of the Cabinet. inner London, local authorities tend to place people in private rented accommodation rather than in council or John Healey: I appreciate my right hon. Friend’s housing association accommodation; that is because of support. He has always been a champion of my cause in the shortage. Huge rents are paid, usually by housing government. benefit—and therein lies a benefit trap for people who are in such properties. Can he offer us some hope that not only will there be a substantial building programme Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): That’s the to end that practice, but some progress will be made on problem! rent control so that the public no longer, in effect, subsidise the excessive rents charged by private landlords? John Healey: Do you know, I had been wondering. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham John Healey: If my hon. Friend will bear with me, I (Mr. MacShane) is dead right, and the Prime Minister shall come to tenants’ rights. That issue has been on my made a point about that idea several months ago. It is desk, and what I was doing on day one of my job was quite clear that local authority building has a bigger trying to find ways to increase building in order to meet role to play. That was signalled in the Budget, but there the needs, particularly during this downturn, of people is more that we can do. The Prime Minister said back in in his constituency, in other parts of London and in the February that rest of the country. “if local authorities can convince us that they can deliver quickly and cost effectively more of the housing that Britain needs…then Mr. Redwood: I congratulate the Minister on his we will be prepared to give…our full backing and put aside any of new job. the barriers that stand in the way of this happening.” In the boom phase of their boom-and-bust approach That is a very important part of meeting the challenge to housing, when prices were going up, Ministers told ahead, and developing a bigger role for local authorities us that they were going up because not enough houses in helping to deal with the particular problems that they were being built. Why are prices now going down, and face in their areas. what is the remedy to falling house prices? David Taylor: I congratulate the Minister on his John Healey: Before we hit this downturn, we had the promotion to his post. The last word spoken by his highest level of house building for 30 years, with more predecessor about housing revenue accounts was in than 207,000 new homes completed. During this recession, answer to a question that I asked last week. I put to my the answer has to be a Government prepared to do right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Margaret more—precisely the contrary to what we see from the Beckett) the possibility of councils retaining all rent Conservatives. They do not believe that the Government income so that they could reinvest in their local housing have a role to play, and they are not prepared to make stock, build new houses and have the same access as the investment that is necessary. I have to tell the right registered social landlords to grants and loans to tackle hon. Gentleman that without the measures that we are the housing crisis. She seemed well disposed towards trying to put in place, there would be more people those suggestions and ideas, which have come from a losing their homes, fewer homes being built and a wide range of organisations and individuals. Would the greater problem in providing the low-cost or low-rent Minister say that he was a fan as well? housing that people will need in future. John Healey: I would, and in the spirit of what the Bob Russell: The Government amendment refers to Prime Minister promised, we are now changing the £100 million for council house building coming from system so that local authorities can bid for housing the 2009 Budget. Will the Minister tell us how many grants on the same basis as housing associations. We houses will be built for £100 million? are also ensuring that local authorities that receive 723 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 724

[John Healey] home? I am not sure whether the money was allocated for that reason, but does he not think that that plan is a grants from the Homes and Communities Agency can bit wonky? expect new homes to be excluded from the housing revenue account subsidy system. Those are steps to John Healey: I did not know about that particular removing the barriers that we have seen in the past scheme, which makes it difficult for me to pass judgment to councils playing a much bigger role in not just on it just on my hon. Friend’s report, but if he wants to building but commissioning the houses that are needed write to me with the details, I will be happy to take a in their areas. closer look at it.

Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): I wish the Minister Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) (Lab): I welcome well in his aspiration to build more homes, but may I my right hon. Friend to his new job, and I welcome the invite him to revisit the whole question of a one-size-fits-all Government’s commitment to make money available housing policy for the country? He will recall that the for councils to start building houses again. I hope that former Salisbury district council ended up responding that is just a first step towards a much larger programme. to the regional spatial strategy with a decision by the I do not know whether he has yet had a chance to read Liberal Democrat administration to build a huge new the comments of Sir Bob Kerslake, the chief executive community in the middle of the countryside, with no of the Homes and Communities Agency, to the Select infrastructure support. Will the Minister consider areas Committee on Communities and Local Government such as mine carefully? It has an area of outstanding the other day. He said that if the schemes were to natural beauty, a special area of conservation river, a succeed, local authorities making bids would have to be world heritage site and a national park. Will he consider prepared to put their land in for free, to get the maximum the absurdity that in those circumstances, the planning value out of the Government’s money. Can my right authority does not have to listen to the water and hon. Friend confirm that that is the case, and will he sewerage companies? No statutory consultation with encourage local authorities to come forward with bids them is required, they are simply instructed, in completely and put their land in, so that we get maximum value inappropriate circumstances, “You will provide the from the money available? water and sewerage.” We have to address that problem in the wider context of housing provision right across John Healey: There are few in the House with a the country. greater knowledge of these matters than my hon. Friend, and he is exactly right. In the pitch that local authorities are making for part of the £100 million that we made John Healey: In 48 hours I have heard a lot of jargon available in the Budget for councils to build, we are and read a lot of acronyms to do with housing, but a looking for them to put their own land into the pot. “one-size-fits-all housing policy” is not one that I have That will contribute not just to the building of lower-cost come across. It does not seem to fit the description that new houses, but potentially to building the houses that the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield gave of our are needed more quickly. That is part of the advantage approach to housing, and I certainly do not recognise it. of looking to local authorities to do more, in precisely As for the serious local concern that the hon. Member the way that I want to see, as does the Prime Minister. for Salisbury (Robert Key) has about his constituency area, if he will allow me I shall look in detail at the I shall now say something about our response during points that he has raised and write to him in response. the past 12 months. We have aimed to act swiftly to support those most affected by the downturn—first of all, people and families at risk of repossession, and of Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): As the Minister losing the very thing that is at the centre of the stability seeks to increase the available housing stock, may I of their life: their home. We have acted to try to help commend to him the National Audit Office report of those with particular problems in the housing market, 18 March on service family accommodation? It highlights including first-time buyers. We have also acted to try to the fact that 18 per cent. of accommodation controlled support the construction industry, as well as to maintain by the Ministry of Defence is void, up from 15 per cent. the supply of new homes. At the same time, we have in 2005, and against the Department’s target of 10 per tried to pursue the longer term goals of increasing the cent. Does he agree that that represents a huge waste, supply of new homes, especially for low-cost rent or and will he speak to his colleagues at the MOD to see purchase. We have also looked to raise the quality, in how much of that housing can be released to the both design and environmental terms, of homes, as well general housing pool? as to reinforce the rights of tenants. Our approach to the recession and those at risk of John Healey: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, losing their homes can be characterised in two ways. and I say to him genuinely that the NAO report was not The first is an attempt to put in place universal support part of the background reading that was provided for available to all, whatever their circumstances. The support me on my first day in the job. I shall ensure that I look for mortgage interest scheme helps more than 200,000 at it, and I will follow his points closely. households through the benefit system. We acted in January to change the rules so that more people could Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): May I get more help more quickly through that scheme. That wish the Minister all the best in his new job? On the is why the Council of Mortgage Lenders, in its evidence subject of the money that has been allocated to local to the Select Committee, said that the authorities, is he aware that the new unitary authority in “reduction in the period for claiming income support mortgage Northumberland plans to pull down 30 or 40 council interest was a pretty fundamental change...it has been of very houses in my constituency to build an old people’s significant assistance.” 725 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 726

Mr. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent, South) (Lab): I, We know that first-time buyers have been hard hit by too, congratulate my right hon. Friend on his well-deserved a lack of credit, with lenders in some cases requiring promotion. As he outlines the measures available, will deposits of up to 40 per cent. So despite falling house he contrast those with the level of support available in prices, they are unable to get on to the property ladder. the early 1990s, when interest rates were 16 per cent. The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and people faced negative equity and losing their homes? mentioned home information packs, but it is the lack of access to credit that is the fundamental cause of stagnation John Healey: I have worked with my hon. Friend for a in the housing market. There is no evidence to suggest long time and I have a great deal of time for him, but he that home information packs have added to the difficulties. has just stolen some of my best lines. He is right. We On the contrary, a survey by Connells estate agents have tried to ensure that we do not make the same showed that sales with HIPs get to exchange six days mistakes as they did in the 1990s. Moreover, we have earlier. ICM has highlighted the fact that more than fundamentally different values, and a different view of eight out of 10 first time buyers in particular want more the role of Government when people are struggling and information, and HIPs are part of the answer. the economy is in recession. That is why we have acted The hon. Gentleman invited me to look at his Green where we can to try to help people stay in their own Paper on housing and stronger foundations. I have done homes. We have acted to try to help firms stay in so, and I was struck by several aspects of it, not least the business. We have acted to try to help people stay in introduction by the Leader of the Opposition. He said: work. That is the fundamental duty of a Labour Government when people are in trouble. “Generations of families are trapped in social housing, denied the chance to break out…I don’t want a child’s life-story to be The universal support that we have tried to put in written before they’re even born”. place for all families and households irrespective of means and circumstances includes free access to advice Grant Shapps: Very good. desks in courts across the country. That is an important part of the help that has been made available. It also John Healey: The hon. Gentleman says that, but it is includes the negotiation of a comprehensive range of social stereotyping of the worst sort. The truth is that support from lenders through the home owners mortgage council housing and housing association housing have support scheme, which has ensured that lenders view provided security, strong communities and decent homes, repossession as a last resort, rather than moving faster meaning a decent start for many families that they to try to repossess. would not otherwise have been able to afford. The motion mentions the special schemes for people in specific circumstances. For example, more than Bob Russell: Can the Minister explain why, in 12 years 130 vulnerable households have so far benefited under of a Labour Government, fewer council houses were the mortgage rescue scheme. It does not necessarily built than during the 10 years of Margaret Thatcher? entail a simple buy-back of those homes; it can mean—as it has done in many cases— a freeze in the repossession John Healey: I have talked about some of the things actions by lenders. The scheme is not simply about that we have done. I have talked about the mix of stepping in to take over the ownership and equity for housing built by housing associations and by councils. I people who cannot pay the mortgage at all. Local have also been clear about the fact that I see a much authorities report to us that as a result of the scheme, bigger role for councils in future. That is one of the big more than 4,000 households that have been struggling tasks that face me. with their mortgages have received free advice from their local authority. Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Devonport) (Lab): Will The measures are designed to be more than the sum my right hon. Friend give way? of their parts. The combination of mortgage advice, intervention in the courts and lenders viewing repossession John Healey: If I may, I wish to accept the invitation as a last resort means that in the first quarter of this from the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield to look year—a time when many would expect repossessions to carefully at what the Tories are saying about housing. rise—we have seen a 40 per cent. fall in applications to What comes over clearly is not a desire to build, to the courts by lenders to take possession of people’s homes. protect tenants’ rights, or to give people a decent and The hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield said that secure home. Instead, it is a desire to remove the right to repossessions were at a record high. Repossessions security from council tenants and housing association were at a record high in the early 1990s. They were at a tenants— record high of more than 75,000 in 1991, when one in 12 households were in arrears and 1.5 million people Grant Shapps indicated dissent. were in negative equity. The combination of the action we have taken to try to help people stay in their homes John Healey: Well, I have to say that, two days into means that at the very point at which one might expect this job, I am aware of a cacophony of Tory voices, the number of repossessions to go through the roof, as some of them billed as experts and advisers on Tory it did in previous recessions, only 12,800 were reported policy, clamouring for the right to remove people’s in the first quarter of this year. The result is that the security of tenure, especially in local government housing. director general of the Council of Mortgage Lenders These are not marginal figures. They include the leader said last month that his forecast of repossession numbers of Hammersmith and Fulham council, who is a this year now looks pessimistic, and he expects to revise distinguished and influential figure in Tory party policy it. That revision is a direct result of the action that we circles. He published a paper in which he called for have taken, in combination with lower interest rates and “tearing down the Berlin Wall of varying tenure and rent levels other actions that we have taken on the economy. that operates between the private rented and social rented sectors”. 727 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 728

[John Healey] security of tenure, market rents and having no responsibility for homelessness are not just ravings committed to He advocates paper? They are being implemented on my constituents “one form of tenancy, modelled on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy today, with the demolition of their homes, the sale of (AST), which any landlord could offer.” their homes and the refusal, on purely ideological grounds, In other words, 8 million people—4 million families—would to build a single social rented property. What is happening have the security of their home reduced to a two-month in Hammersmith and Fulham today is the Tory plan for notice period. housing in Britain tomorrow.

Dr. Starkey: If I understand correctly, the suggestion John Healey: My hon. Friend talks about Tory ravings; by that Tory spokesperson was that the Berlin wall I have another example. It is not just from any old between rent in the private rented sector and the social councillor, but from one of the housing advisers at rented sector should be torn down. Surely if rents in the Westminster council. If Members are looking for ravings, social sector in London went up to the level of the then this is an interesting article from Localis, the policy private rented sector, everybody in council accommodation platform. The adviser talks about supporting social in London would effectively be unable to work because housing as an they would lose their home, as they would lose their “absurd, unjust and unfair subsidy”. housing benefit. Is that really the policy that the Opposition If these were just ravings and writings, I would not be propose? so concerned, but my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush (Mr. Slaughter) is John Healey: That is the sort of intervention that I right. He has told me about a development in Shepherd’s would expect from my hon. Friend. She sees very clearly Bush, on Bloemfontein road in his constituency. It is a that this is not just a question of removing the rights of £50 million development that, under the Labour Mayor tenure and removing security. The question of the Berlin and Labour council, was set to have contained 50 per wall between rent levels has profound implications of cent. affordable housing—half for low-cost sale and exactly the nature that she identifies. half for low-cost rent. Under the new regime, now that It is not just a matter of the Opposition removing the the Mayor of London has let local councils in London rights to security and the rights of council tenants or off any responsibility for providing this housing, that housing association tenants. The truth is that they do will now be only 39 per cent. affordable housing with no not believe in social housing in the first place—there is provision for rent at all. The truth is that the Conservatives no mention of it in tonight’s motion. That is the case at do not understand this type of housing. They do not all levels of the party—[Interruption.] They protest, support it, but they just dare not say so this side of an but they have not put it in their motion. This is a debate election. about housing. If they believed in social housing, they would not be talking about cutting £800 million from Ms Buck: My right hon. Friend mentioned the deputy the housing budget. They would not be talking about cabinet member for housing in Westminster. Is he aware cutting £240 million from the budgets of local authorities. that in the same article the councillor went on to Those are not cuts for the future, but cuts that they describe council housing as: would make now if they had the chance in government. “A unique version of ‘who wants to be a millionaire’ UK I talked about that being true at all levels of the welfare state style” Conservative party. It is true at a national level, but and as a what about London? What about the Mayor of London? “subsidy production…machine with lottery style levels of winnings”? He scrapped the Labour Mayor’s 50 per cent. affordable housing target—a Labour Mayor and a Labour regime Does that, to my right hon. Friend, suggest someone that believed in social housing—in favour of what he who supports providing affordable housing for low-income calls negotiation with the boroughs. I will tell the House households? what has happened there: he is allowing them to shirk their responsibility to provide housing at levels that John Healey: No, but I am glad that my hon. Friend people can afford, whether they rent or buy. Members has read the same Localis article as I have. can look across the Tory boroughs at what this new Tory Mayor is allowing them to get away with. I mentioned Mr. Syms: Will the Minister give way? Hammersmith and Fulham; my hon. Friends know— John Healey: I will—for a second time, I think. Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush) (Lab) rose— Mr. Syms: The Minister is being very generous in giving way. Of course, his Government are taking 20 per John Healey: I shall give way to my hon. Friend; he cent. of the rents off my tenants in Poole and whizzing knows Hammersmith and Fulham better than anyone it into central London to Westminster, Hammersmith else. and Fulham, Camden, Islington and the other authorities. If they are such lousy authorities in central London, Mr. Slaughter: I am very grateful to my right hon. why take £4 million from Poole? Friend for giving way, not least because I cannot make the points that I would like to make in this debate, John Healey: You were not in the Chair, Madam because my voice has gone. I am grateful that he has Deputy Speaker, when the hon. Gentleman asked me a made the point about Hammersmith and Fulham, but similar question about the review and the reform of the will he bear it in mind that the points about abolishing housing revenue account. I have given him his answer. 729 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 730

Ms Buck: Will my right hon. Friend give way? regret only that that commitment meant that he had to step down as my Parliamentary Private Secretary. I am John Healey: I will, but then I shall wind up as I know grateful for the support he gave me, although I think that other people want to speak. that the period was too short. The motion ignores entirely our record of success Ms Buck: We have had several recommendations over the past 12 years, with unprecedented investment from Opposition Members that contributions to the in social and affordable housing and unprecedented housing revenue account from their local authorities investment in dealing with a backlog of repairs and should be repatriated. Does my right hon. Friend share homes for 2 million people that simply were not decent my suspicion that, were there to be a Conservative enough to live in. It ignores the fact that house building Government, unless they pledged additional money for in 2007-08 was at the highest level for 30 years. It housing investment, tenants in areas such as mine—in ignores the dramatic falls in the levels of homelessness Hammersmith and Fulham, in Westminster and so and the changes in the planning system that will make on—would be dramatically worse off? things faster, fairer and more strongly democratic. It also ignores the recent reforms that give tenants stronger John Healey: My hon. Friend, who understands these rights and a more powerful voice. things as well as any other Member of the House, is The Government’s amendment provides a fuller and right about those risks and about the dangers in the fairer picture of our housing policy record. I am proud system. Precisely the same risks and hidden aims can be of much of what we have achieved so far, but I am also found in claims that the Opposition want to see localisation clear that we have a great deal more to do. We must do of the business rate, as that would drive a coach and much more to help people get into the homes that they horses through their ability to redistribute funding to need, and to stay in the homes that they have. In local areas and local councils from areas that have the particular, we have a great deal more to do to ensure capacity and high tax base to raise it to those that have a that the homes that people need in future are built and low tax base but perhaps a high need for it. available for them. That is my task, as Housing Minister, from tomorrow— Mr. Flello: Will my right hon. Friend give way on that from day three. point? 8.10 pm John Healey: I was about to wind up, but as it is my hon. Friend of course I will. Sarah Teather (Brent, East) (LD): May I begin by welcoming the Housing Minister and all the new ministerial Mr. Flello: I am most grateful to my right hon. team to their roles? Obviously, the Minister is not new Friend, who has been making a superb speech. Will he to the Department, but I am sure that he will find the clarify whether he is saying that under a future Tory housing brief the most interesting and challenging part Government—heaven forbid—the good folk of Stoke- of the Communities and Local Government portfolio. on-Trent would have less subsidy for council housing in Personally, I am disappointed and sorry to see his their area? predecessor, the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Wright), go to his new post as Under-Secretary of State for John Healey: That is easy. What is clear for Stoke-on- Children, Schools and Families, and I hope that the Trent is that were the Conservatives to come into Minister will pass on my best wishes to him. It became Government, the funding for housing would be cut, the almost a weekly ritual for us to debate housing in funding for local councils would be cut and the people Westminster Hall, and he always made his points with of Stoke-on-Trent, many of whom need that support charm and courtesy. I thank him for that. from central Government, would simply not get it? It is a great frustration for me to debate yet another Conservative motion that has nothing positive to say. Mr. Love: Will my right hon. Friend give way? The Conservative analysis of Government failures in housing seems largely correct: it is certainly true that John Healey: As my hon. Friend presses me to do so, the Government’s mortgage support scheme has so far I will. helped just two people, that the facility for zero stamp Mr. Love: I thank my right hon. Friend for being so duty for zero-carbon homes has helped just 18, that generous with his time. I wanted the opportunity, like Government policies are leading to woefully inadequate many others here tonight, to congratulate him on his numbers of homes being built, and that almost all of new role, which he is fulfilling with great promise this them are small flats. It is also a statement of the obvious evening. The implication of what my right hon. Friend that the Prime Minister appears to show a careless said about Conservative party policy is, of course, much disregard for his own Housing Ministers, but where are greater. The last time the Conservatives deregulated the new ideas in the motion? rents, they said, “Let housing benefit take the strain.” The motion is just one long whinge, and I for one find The implication for public expenditure of such proposals it deeply depressing. We have just lived through probably from a party that says that we have to restrict public the most difficult few weeks in politics that I have expenditure is either that such expenditure will go through experienced in my lifetime, and I suspect that most hon. the roof or that tenancies will be jeopardised across the Members will not be able to remember any time as country. difficult. Faith in representative democracy and in this place is at an all-time low: just one person in three John Healey: Spot on. I can see why my hon. Friend turned out to vote last week, and it is really difficult to serves with such distinction. He is certainly not wasting persuade people that politics actually matters and can his time on the Select Committee on the Treasury, and I make a difference. 731 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 732

[Sarah Teather] I accept the whingeing in the Conservative motion, and the criticism and analysis that it contains, but let us I have spent most of the last few weeks going into have some sort of solution that would make things schools, and it has been harder than ever to convince better. Without that, why are we here? What were we young people that being an MP is an amazing and elected for if we do not have any ideas for making incredible job because one has an opportunity to change, Britain a better place? The motion is just pointless. not just the life of one person, but whole systems. Yet we are stuck here until 10 o’clock on a Tuesday evening Mr. Drew: I hope that I can help the hon. Lady. debating an Opposition motion that does not mention a Nowhere in the Conservative motion or the amendments single idea for changing anything at all. It is no wonder proposed by the Government and the Liberal Democrats that voters are disillusioned—I feel disillusioned too. is there any mention of rural housing and the crisis that exists there. I know that hon. Members in all parties Mr. Syms: The hon. Lady made a very good point know exactly what I am talking about. As the hon. about flats. Does she agree that one of the worst things Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) knows, I about an overarching central planning system is that it am a great advocate of community land trusts. We have gives us lots of flats that cannot be sold, when what we to look at rural areas, as the housing crisis is not need are family homes? Many families are living in very confined to urban Britain. Our towns and villages have overcrowded conditions, and flats are not the solution. insufficient housing for people of lower means, and I hope that the hon. Lady will agree that we have to Sarah Teather: The Conservatives do not have any address that as well. proposals to address that problem, which I am not sure is governed entirely by planning. I think it is mainly to Sarah Teather: I agree completely with hon. Gentleman, do with targets and how housing associations are funded, although I point out that my amendment deals only but they do not seem to have any solutions in that with housing and makes no mention of the words regard either. “urban” or “rural” specifically. I also agree with him I accept that the Conservative spokesperson has recently about community land trusts, which he and I have produced a couple of housing policy papers. The first, debated in Westminster Hall. The trusts are very important the so-called “Shapps report”, contained no policy in Cornwall and many other rural areas, and they may proposals whatsoever, being just a string of graphs that even represent a policy on which we can achieve all-party some researcher had downloaded from the DCLG website. agreement. His later papers on empty properties and building homes I said that the Conservative motion was vacuous, but were notable for a much higher quality of graphic the Government amendment reminds me a little of the design, but that was not enough to distract me from the string quartet that kept playing as the Titanic sank. absence of any promises of new money. There is no acceptance of what is happening in the real The problem is that abolishing central targets alone world: the Government hunker down and comfort will not build any new homes. We agree that it will build themselves by reeling off a list of statistics while closing different types of homes, but it will not build any more their ears to the desperate cries of those who have lost homes. If the Conservative spokesperson is so pleased their homes, who live in cramped and unacceptable with the policy papers that he has produced, why on homes or who have no hope whatsoever of getting earth did he not put anything of what they contain into even that. the motion that we are debating today? Instead, we have Some 1.8 million families are languishing on council 11 lines of sweet Fanny Adams to discuss. lists waiting for a suitable home that they can afford to rent. In London, around one household in 10 is waiting Anne Main: The hon. Lady is disputing whether we to be rehoused. In my constituency, the figure is even should argue over targets, but I am sure that she will higher, with one household in five stuck on the waiting accept that the Liberal Democrat council in St. Albans list for a council or housing association property. has successfully defeated the Government’s regional Earlier, the right hon. Member for Rotherham spatial strategy on targets. I welcome that, as local (Mr. MacShane) mentioned the link with the British people should decide how many homes there should be National party, and I think that he is right. Some of the and where they should be placed. It is not just a areas worst affected in terms of housing are in the old question of having more and more homes: we need to Labour heartlands. The very people who elected this put the infrastructure in place first, and then give local Government are the ones most let down on the issue people the power to make decisions. I should have of housing. thought that she would welcome that, and not say that we need more houses regardless of what local Housing is a powder-keg issue. It ignites rows about people want. race and immigration, and it provokes people to lose faith in the system. It is the very issue that fascist parties Sarah Teather: If the hon. Lady had listened, she rely on to breed resentment and hate. The Leader of the would know that I did not dispute the proposal to House is correct to say that the Government should abolish central targets. What I said was that that alone take responsibility for the rise of the BNP,and I completely would not build any new houses. agree. However, if there is to be any hope of tackling We attempted to amend the Conservative motion that sort of fascist politics, housing is where the Government and, although our amendment was not selected for have to start. debate, it is on the Order Paper and hon. Members are What is needed is a serious investment in affordable welcome to read it. They will see that we accept the housing to rent. The Government invested £12.5 billion motion, and then go on to propose some solutions— in a VAT cut that made little or no difference to people’s something lacking from anything put forward by the lives, when they could spent that on building tens of Conservatives. thousands of more homes for people to live in. 733 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 734

The Government also need to accept that the old way of doing it, but at present the negative subsidy is cross-subsidy model of house building is not going to rising so fast that in five years most councils will not build any new homes in the short term. They need to have council housing stock, because of what is happening scrap Treasury targets on the number of units per unit to the financial system. of subsidy so that housing associations have the confidence to know that they can use the money available to build Sarah Teather: I entirely agree that we must end the without facing penalties later. system of negative subsidy. It is ridiculous. Councils It is ridiculous that at the very time in a recession that cannot plan because they do not know what money we need house building to increase, building has been they will have from one year to the next. They need to grinding to a halt. So much for the fiscal stimulus. By know that their rental income is available to reinvest in the time we get out of the recession, housing need will their housing stock for repairs or for building, and so be greater, house prices will again spiral out of control, that they have something against which they can borrow, and we will not be able to do anything about it because knowing what their future revenue stream will be. The the builders will all have retrained or gone back to Treasury currently keeps about £200 million of the Poland. We will have nothing with which to tackle the money coming in from rental income, so it is not as problem. though all of it is going to repair houses in other parts The Government have a real opportunity to improve of the country. It is unacceptable for the Chancellor to housing now. Major investment now could absolve them keep a portion of that rent. of the sins of the past 10 years. I hope they will realise The second thing that the new Minister should do that they have an opportunity now and a clear way to urgently is to give councils back their right-to-buy make amends. I was pleased to hear the new Minister receipts. Only then can councils replace the homes lost say how important he thinks it is that councils should through right to buy, to make sure that future generations be able to build homes. Councils are desperate to be have a chance of somewhere to live. Since 1980, 2.5 million able to build new homes for families in their area. They council properties have been purchased under right to have to pick up the pieces when homeless families land buy from a council stock that then stood at 5 million. It on their doorstep, but they have only limited powers to is no wonder that councils have nowhere for people fix the problem. to live. The Prime Minister made warm noises about that Taken together, new money, investment of rental and several months ago, but the proposals that were put right-to-buy income, and extension of powers to borrow forward were thin on the ground. The Minister was not would make a real difference to councils’ ability to sure how to answer the question from my hon. Friend build homes that people need. But in the Conservative the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) on how many motion and in their green paper, they have no plans to new homes would be built with the new money available. do that. They have plans to review the HRA system and We calculated that it would be about 900 homes. That is to end the tenant tax, but no plans to top up finance two or three for every local authority area, which will that is lacking for repairs. They have no plans to invest make only a tiny dent in the number of 1.8 million people more money in social homes and no plans to give on housing waiting lists. councils back money from right to buy, so I cannot see If councils are to be able to borrow to build, they how they can deliver on their promise to build more need to know what their asset base and their rental council homes. income will be. Taking new homes alone out of the housing revenue account is not enough. We must have Bob Russell: Does my hon. Friend recall that I could fundamental reform of the housing revenue account not get an answer from those on the Conservative Front system now. I am pleased to hear from the Minister that Bench as to whether a Conservative Government would it will conclude soon, but we have heard that for a very bring back the building of council housing? long time. Every time there is a change of Housing Minister, it gets further delayed. Sarah Teather: Yes. It was a depressing moment. The I was pleased to hear the Conservative spokesperson Conservative spokesman seemed to be unclear about join our campaign to end the tenant tax, but I was left a which direction he would go in, were he to become a little unclear about what the Conservatives’ proposals Minister. We are calling for a general election and he would be. The hon. Member for Regent’s Park and hopes to become a Minister, but he does not seem quite Kensington, North (Ms Buck) stated the position well sure of the direction in which he would take his party. for me. In my constituency, Brent, we receive a subsidy from poor tenants in Cambridge. It is invidious for poor Mr. Love: I have been listening carefully to the hon. tenants in Cambridge to be subsidising poor tenants’ Lady’s incredibly disparaging remarks about the repairs in Brent, and a solution is needed. Our solution Conservative party’s policy in this area, yet the Conservatives is that that should be topped up out of general taxation. do not seem to be prepared to answer on any of the People like me, who can afford to pay out of their taxes, issues. Does that not speak volumes about the vacuity should pay for that, but the Conservatives have no of what the official Opposition are offering? proposal at all, which means that there will be no money for repairs in places like my constituency. Sarah Teather: Yes. My hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) said to Mr. Syms: The hon. Lady makes a good point. For me from a sedentary position that she was not sure all political parties, need has always been the basis of whether that was because the Conservatives did not housing. If there is a debate about whether some areas understand or did not care. I shall not be as mean as should have resources and some should not, there has that, but they seem to be unwilling to put their policies to be some kind of compromise. General taxation is one out there so that people can scrutinise them and argue 735 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 736

[Sarah Teather] empty properties that they buy, because at the moment they cannot use Homes and Communities Agency money with them. I do not understand why they are elected if to do so. The Government should also offer grants and they are not prepared to debate ideas. It seems to me loans to individuals to repair properties in return for that that is why we are here. lets to social housing tenants. All those things would make a difference. Mr. Slaughter: It seems strange to be debating the The Conservatives’ key policy for tackling empty matter when the Conservatives are here but silent. As properties is to reduce the space and design standard they are silent, let us continue debating it. The hon. for social homes, and I wonder whether they have any Lady heard the answer from my right hon. Friend the idea how long the average social tenant spends in temporary Minister. We know what the Conservatives’ policy is accommodation. If one puts a tenant into a draughty because their think tanks are telling us. It is no more or cramped unsuitable home as a supposedly short-term social housing, no security of tenure, market rents, no measure, most will still be suffering in unsuitable housing responsibility for homelessness, and effectively the end a decade later. of social housing in this country. They will not say that because they know that 8 million people out there will Anne Main: I am following the hon. Lady’s argument rumble them if they hear it. on empty properties with great interest, because empty dwelling management orders, as she knows, are a totally Bob Russell: You can say that again. under-utilised device. Indeed, they have been completely under-utilised by the Liberal Democrat-led council in Sarah Teather: I suspect that the hon. Gentleman St. Albans, so, before she lectures all of us on bringing could not do that and I should offer him some advice as back empty homes, I should say that I have been pressing someone who lost her voice after being ill. It is best to my council to get its empty homes back into use. keep quiet. It will heal much more quickly if he says However, it has not as yet chosen to use that device. We less, I promise, but I thank him for his intervention. all could all lecture each other on empty homes, so I hope that the hon. Lady will bear that in mind. I shall continue to be a little bit rude to the Conservatives, and then I shall move on. On right to buy, not only have Sarah Teather: I am greatly relieved to hear the hon. they no plans to give back right-to-buy receipts, but Lady’s conversion to EDMOs, because her party opposed they want to extend right to buy to housing associations. them when they were debated in this place. That idea has been universally condemned. Housing associations already face great difficulty because of the Early in the debate, a lot of time was spent poking current economic climate, and the Conservatives want fun at the Government’s mortgage rescue scheme and to remove their rental income and dwindle their asset its total inadequacy in the face of the 50,000 or 70,000 base. Who on earth do they think will lend money to repossessions—depending on which estimate one takes— them to build homes under those circumstances? Worse, this year. However, I shall give some credit where credit a requirement to sell properties at below market values is due, because the Government have done some welcome would be against the charter of most housing associations. things, particularly on the changes to income support It is not a feasible or a sensible policy to take forward. for mortgage interest. When we add up all the different schemes, however, we still have the problem whereby Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Does my hon. tens of thousands of people fall through the net and Friend agree that the right to buy council housing stock face having their home repossessed. Similarly, if the led to cherry-picking and the loss of some of the best landlord of a bought or buy-to-let property gets into council housing stock, and meant the ghettoisation of difficulty, the people renting such properties may find some council housing? Does she not fear that exactly themselves on the street with no notice whatever. the same thing would happen if Conservative policy for other social landlords were implemented? Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): My hon. Friend was just talking about how the mortgage rescue scheme has failed to help many people who face Sarah Teather: My hon. Friend makes a good point. losing their homes. Last week, a very concerning case The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford was raised with me of an individual who, at the beginning Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) recently made a similar of December last year, thought that they would be one point about right to buy as part of the report for the of the first beneficiaries of such a scheme, but, at the Centre for Social Justice. end of April, they were told that they no longer qualified. In addition to building new homes, it is important During that period, their mortgage payments were frozen, that we make a more concerted effort to bring empty and they are now more likely to face repossession as a properties back into use. The hon. Member for Westbury result of their being rejected for the scheme. Should not (Dr. Murrison) made a point about MOD housing—a the Government be helping to prevent such problems point that my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester rather than making matters worse? has made many times in the Chamber. It is an excellent point, but we need to be willing to think flexibly also Sarah Teather: I absolutely agree: it is a very concerning about empty commercial space during a recession, and case. The difficulty is that many criteria have been to be prepared to offer short-life housing to people who drawn tightly, and it has been difficult for the people want it. The single most important thing that the implementing the scheme to understand exactly what Government could do to help to bring empty properties will happen as they go through the process. It takes a back into use is to make renovating them cheaper. They long time before someone is approved or found not to should cut VAT on renovation, rebuild and then make be eligible to claim help, and, in the meantime, they can grant available to housing associations to repair the get into great difficulty. 737 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 738

The Government introduced a pre-action protocol those families are experiencing real pain because of a that I thought contained many useful things. I agreed combination of factors, including lack of affordability with all the protocol’s sentiments, which we called for and changes in their circumstances; in some cases they before the Government published it, but the problem is will have lost their job. That leaves many families genuinely that it has no teeth, and I cannot understand why the worried, and they are sometimes at risk of losing their Government are not prepared to reform mortgage law homes. That rightly causes concern to all of us. My to give it teeth. If we were to reform mortgage law, we right hon. Friend has already recognised that in the could give the courts the power to intervene to enforce early 1990s the level of repossessions, with all the pain some of the good things that are in the pre-action that repossessions put families through, was at least as protocol. We would also be able to deal with the situation high as it is now; in some cases it was higher. However, when a landlord’s home is repossessed and the people that should not stop us from focusing a great deal of who rent it get no notice at all, except when they go attention and support on those families. It is absolutely home and find that the locks have been changed. We critical that we do everything that we can to reduce can deal with much of that simply by giving the courts repossessions and to help people through a difficult time. the power to intervene and then to put the rest into On looking at mortgage law, I agree with the hon. guidance, as the Government have done. I pressed the Member for Brent, East (Sarah Teather) that we should Minister’s predecessor repeatedly on the issue, and I in some cases do more to enforce controls against hope that the new Minister will consider it afresh. lenders who are excessively zealous in the action that I am pretty fed up to be debating another Conservative they are taking. One particular group of people about motion that has nothing in it. whom we need to worry are tenants in buy-to-let properties. In some instances, we should also worry about unauthorised Grant Shapps: Why don’t you call a housing debate? tenants in properties in cases in which the mortgage holder has defaulted. Such tenants have virtually no Julia Goldsworthy: She’d have plenty to say. protection and are at risk of being thrown out, sometimes with no notice whatever. In many cases, they then Sarah Teather: I would have plenty to say, and there is become the responsibility of the local authority. I know lots more that I could say. that the Government are considering the issue; it is important that they look at it closely and act swiftly. For Grant Shapps: When are we going to have a Lib Dem a host of reasons—for the sake of the people involved, housing debate? and because of the pressures on local authorities—we need to do what we can to support those individuals. Sarah Teather: We have fewer Opposition day debates, so the Conservatives might like to give us one of theirs. Julia Goldsworthy: The hon. Lady makes an important We would be quite delighted to lead on the issue. point, and I agree that it is important that the Government What depresses me is that the Conservatives have and the Minister should come forward with proposals nothing to say on the issue and the Government seem to as soon as possible. Does she agree that the Local be sticking their head in the sand. It depresses me Democracy, Economic Development and Construction because my constituents need this place to take positive Bill, which is currently being considered by the House, action and to do something to make their lives better. provides an opportunity to make such proposals, and I shall end by telling the House a story that, I am does she agree that the Minister should make the most afraid, is typical in Brent. Lucy has been living in of that opportunity to bring forward proposals as soon temporary accommodation in my constituency for as possible? 14 years. She lives in a two-bedroom flat with her four children and bids regularly on the choice-based letting Ms Buck: I have not looked closely enough at the system. However, the highest that she has ever been clauses of the Bill to know whether it would be an ranked is 140th out of 300, and she has no hope appropriate hook, but I see no reason at all why Ministers whatever of moving. Her eldest child is now 16 and has should not at least consider whether it provides an lived in that unsuitable property for almost her whole opportunity. There is no question but that there are life. She needs some room—a bit of quiet and privacy large numbers of vulnerable households in such properties, away from brothers and sisters—to study for her GCSEs, whom we may need to act swiftly to assist. otherwise the misery of her housing situation, which Before I move on to the core of what I want to talk has blighted her whole childhood, will ruin her future, about, may I take the opportunity to raise with the too. We need the Government to act for people like Minister an issue that I have raised many times with his that. We have a new Minister; I implore him to make a predecessors? It is the plight of local authority new start. leaseholders—people who own ex-local authority stock, having bought it, sometimes through the right to buy, 8.34 pm but more frequently through resale. In some cases—I Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) am thinking of my constituents—as an unintended (Lab): I, too, should like to welcome the Minister for consequence of a desirable objective, namely the decent Housing to that most important post. About three homes initiative, they face major works bills of £60,000. quarters of householders in this country are home Some groups of such leaseholders enjoy various owners. For most of those people, most of the time, concessions when it comes to that repayment. In particular, being a home owner has been a happy and successful those who are retired are able to put a charge on their experience. It has benefited them and their families property for sale. However, many younger, working enormously. Obviously, the majority of people still households have not so far been able to avail themselves aspire to be home owners. However, people in many of of a scheme that gives them any realistic opportunity of 739 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 740

[Ms Buck] Mr. Slaughter: I do not want to correct my hon. Friend, but the situation is worse than that. The Tory being able to repay without losing their home. I am council in my constituency tried to give back the decent seriously worried about that group of people, and I urge homes initiative money; it said that it did not want it. the Government to swallow the resistance—a resistance Now the councillors involved describe it as an exercise that is also rooted in my local authority, Westminster, so in upgrading the deckchairs on the Titanic. They really it is cross-party—to providing practical support for do not believe that there is a future for social housing. those households. Some of them will lose their homes They think that the £13 billion of decent homes initiative when those bills fall due, and they do not have the money was wasted. money to pay them. Ms Buck: My hon. Friend always manages to trump Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): Is that not a me when it comes to Hammersmith Conservatives; factor resulting from encouraging people at the margins what is going on in that borough is jaw-dropping. He is to try to get into owner-occupation? That, in the long absolutely right. Sometimes it seems to me that term, is unwise because of the costs and risks of owner- Hammersmith Conservatives make Dame Shirley Porter occupation, which some people can bear and others look like Octavia Hill. My hon. Friend will, no doubt, cannot. continue to fight that battle. I return to the issue of the dividing line on social Ms Buck: There is an important point in my hon. housing. The message coming through extremely strongly Friend’s comment. Generally speaking, what he has from the practice in Hammersmith, from the statements mentioned was not a problem among local authority made by Westminster council’s deputy cabinet member leaseholders, although it depended a little on where for housing and from many Conservative think-tanks they were. The leaseholders causing me the greatest and supporting politicians is that social housing is the concern were those who held leases in high rises; it is fundamental problem. Even the Leader of the Opposition’s extremely expensive to carry out decent homes initiative introduction to Conservative housing policy talks about work on high rises. Many other leaseholders, however, families being trapped in social housing. The language were perfectly able to sustain a mortgage on ex-local repeated again and again in such texts implies that authority stock in normal times. tenants are second-class citizens. It equates social housing However, there is a genuine issue. Last week in my with deprivation and loss of status. The implication is advice surgery, I met yet again a woman on housing that tenants should be ashamed. I deplore that, because benefit, who—extraordinarily—was allowed to buy her social housing should be a choice and tenure is not a local authority property from Westminster council. I do matter of morality. People in social housing may not be not understand how anybody could have been complicit there for life. Obviously, with home ownership being so in allowing and encouraging people on very low incomes— desirable because of the equity return over the years, sometimes benefit-level incomes—to buy their own homes. many people want to leave their social housing at some It is also fair to say that the roots of much of the point, when they can do so, and enjoy the benefits of global economic catastrophe with which we are now home ownership. However, when and while they are dealing lie in the American sub-prime mortgage market, tenants, they are not in some way morally inferior in which people who simply had no realistic means of because of the exercise of that choice. repaying home loans were encouraged to buy. We all The thrust of the argument emerging from the have to be careful, however; the issue is not confined to Conservatives is focused on security of tenure. Tenants America and it is not just a party political point. We everywhere should be very worried about that emerging have an understandable desire to support and encourage thinking because, as is well researched and documented, people into home ownership, but there are people on the loss of security of tenure has a devastating effect on the margins who should not have been so encouraged. communities and on the lives of the people it affects. That brings me to my core point, which has been There is a litany of policy in Conservative thinking that mentioned in this debate. I am thinking of the 4 million would do untold damage to neighbourhoods and families. social tenants and the 4 million or so people—who It would also lead to additional expenditure being incurred overlap with the former to some extent—who are in a by the public purse, particularly through housing benefit queue for social housing. Fundamentally, the big dividing when tenants, whether in social housing or forced into line in housing policy is now between those of us who the private sector, have to pay higher rents that must be believe that social housing is part of the solution and picked up elsewhere by the public purse. those who believe that it is part of the problem. I say in all fairness that the Government have not built enough Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend must be aware from social homes; I have never believed that they have, and I her constituency that the transient nature of communities am on record as having said that. I am concerned about where the majority of people are in private rented meeting housing need, and I cannot deny that that accommodation leads to fractured communities, a is true. diminution of community life, and a less satisfactory However, it is also true, although ignored on the form of existence than for those who have security of Opposition Benches, that the money that we have invested tenure in council and housing association properties. in social housing has been much needed investment in the decent homes initiative. We have rehabilitated and Ms Buck: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is refurbished tens of thousands of homes in my constituency exactly why housing associations grew up in the first that were long overdue. The investment was made, place—to meet the needs of vulnerable people who although I would have preferred it to have been slightly were forced into the private rented sector and whose more balanced towards new homes. lives were damaged as a result. 741 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 742

The emerging thinking in the Conservative party is Some of my hon. Friends have already made the extraordinarily damaging. It threatens market rents for point, so I will not go on about it, that in South tenants and the loss of security of tenure for tenants. Cambridgeshire and Cambridge city, more than £11 million The abandonment of targets and the lack of disappears in negative subsidy on the housing revenue acknowledgement of the need for social housing, as account—something approaching 40 per cent. of the reflected in the motion, would mean that those people rental income in South Cambridgeshire. By the measure continued to be treated and regarded as second-class of housing need, which is the starting point for negative citizens, and that their housing needs would not be met. subsidy, we clearly have dramatically rising needs. We This Government, with their investment programme in also need social housing and I therefore urge Ministers the decent homes initiative and an expanded building to act quickly to enable us in South Cambridgeshire programme within a continued commitment to affordable and in Cambridge city to respond to the dramatic accommodation with reasonable rents, have the only housing need by retaining more resources to improve solution to the housing pressures that we face. our existing housing stock and add to it. Secondly, let me consider Northstowe. The new Minister Several hon. Members rose— for Housing told us nothing about the Government’s Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. I advise plans for eco-towns in South Cambridgeshire. Despite hon. Members that the winding-up speeches will commence all our efforts to offer additional sites for major new at 9.40 pm. Several Members are hoping to catch my developments, the Government wanted to wish an eco-town eye; if they do the arithmetic and exercise self-discipline, upon us. We said that it was in the wrong place, there all may be successful. was no infrastructure to support it and that it was environmentally unsustainable. The Government wanted 8.47 pm to go ahead, we fought and, in the space of several months last year, we defeated the proposal. It went Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I away and I hope that it does not come back. We in am grateful for the opportunity to contribute briefly to Cambridgeshire will decide where best to support new this important debate. I particularly enjoyed hearing housing supply. the opening speech by my hon. Friend the Member for However, I stress to Ministers that, during the discussion Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps). There is nothing that last year with the Minister’s predecessor but one, we I wish to add to or detract from his critique of Government made it clear that we wanted Northstowe in my constituency policy and his exposition of our policies. to be the first eco-town. In July 2007, just after the My purpose is simply to add some remarks relating Prime Minister took office, one of his first proposals, specifically to South Cambridgeshire and the application which he set out in The Sunday Times, was to build of Government housing policy even in the months eco-towns. The example that he gave was described as still available to them. Much needs to be done by the “Oakington in Cambridgeshire.” Oakington, which is Government to offset the difficulties that we face in in my constituency, is the location of the planned new meeting our future housing need. The Minister will be town of Northstowe. We want it to be an eco-town, an aware that South Cambridgeshire is one of those places exemplar and the first new town of its kind in this where housing need is the most acute, as are the problems country. We want it to go ahead, but that will not of affordability and the house price to earnings ratio. In happen at the moment. Gallagher, the developer, has Cambridgeshire we have never taken the view that we backed out and the proposal depends on the Homes wish to constrain the availability of additional housing and Communities Agency, with Government backing, supply; we have always actively sought opportunities to being prepared to turn it into the first exemplary eco-town. match new housing supply to the evident requirement I urge Ministers who are taking on their new responsibilities for employment and new housing in our area. to consider positively how we can make Northstowe the That is why, five or six years ago, we identified first eco-town. additional housing requirements through the county If we are to take a rational approach to providing structure plan. In my constituency, we have given up a additional housing, the Government must remove from great deal of green belt. New developments are happening the regional spatial strategy in the east of England the in Cambourne and in Trumpington Meadows. Through specification that the housing targets are “a minimum”. the structure plan, we are committed to the development If we carry on as we are, with little new housing being of Northstowe as a new town of more than 9,500 homes. built, opportunistic developers will try to claim that, We have always advocated that. We recognised, after an because we are not on track to meet the housing target exhaustive process through the structure plan, that that in the regional spatial strategy, they can make highly location was the right place for us to take the next step speculative proposals for new house building in highly towards supplying a substantial number of new houses unsuitable locations at some unspecified time in the as part of a large increase overall. In my constituency, future. We will end up with an enormous overhang of even on our existing plans, we intended to double the designations for new housing in the wrong places, when rate of new housing in the next few years. local authorities should decide, with local people’s support, It will be no surprise to hon. Members that, in the where that new housing should be built, with the necessary fourth quarter of last year, much of the impetus simply infrastructure support. I urge Ministers to reject that stopped. It is vital to regain some of that initiative. The misuse of language in the regional spatial strategy, Government can do several things to help increase which drives that bad effect. housing supply and provide more affordable and social housing in South Cambridgeshire. Like others, I have 8.54 pm witnessed the number of people seeking social housing Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): more than double during my time as a Member of It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Parliament. Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), who made a thoughtful 743 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 744

[Dr. Phyllis Starkey] Hansard tomorrow. They will realise that the Opposition spokesperson is now chatting to the person next to him, contribution and some points that deserve consideration. because he does not want to hear the debate—which, if It was very different from the contribution from the I may say so, also demonstrates his contempt for Parliament, Conservative Front Bench. I agree with the hon. Member as there is little point in having a debate if people do not for Brent, East (Sarah Teather), who has now left, that listen to the contributions of others. that was vacuous. Indeed, in my view parts of it were The second point in the Conservatives’ motion, which positively dangerous. nobody has even alluded to, is the ridiculous suggestion, I want to focus on a couple of the points in the which the Opposition constantly make, that it is the Conservative motion, because it is important that we Government’s planning guidance on housing that has led rebut them. First, the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield to a glut of flats. There are two reasons why there are so (Grant Shapps) spoke from the Front Bench about the many flats in city centres. The first reason is that local take-up of the mortgage support scheme and the mortgage councils have not used their planning powers properly rescue scheme, as well as the homebuy schemes. His and have allowed planning applications to go through. comments were essentially debating points and party The second reason is that developers make more money political point scoring, and did not give a realistic if they pack lots of tiny flats on to a small site. assessment of the reality of the situation. Opposition spokespeople frequently suggest that the I would point the hon. Gentleman to the interesting reason why there are so many flats is the Government’s evidence that the Select Committee on Communities rules on increasing the density of housing. Actually, the and Local Government heard from the Council of density of flats in city centres is many times higher than Mortgage Lenders and the Intermediary Mortgage Lenders that set out in the guidance on density provided by the Association. They said that it was far too soon to judge Government. The reason why flats are being built is that the success or otherwise of the two schemes to support developers want to make the maximum profit, and that people facing repossession, because of the time that it is what flats give them. Previously, they were able to sell takes for people to get through to the end point. The the flats and get their money back. Supine councils do famous two households at the end of the MRS involved not make proper use of the planning powers that they individuals whose houses have been bought by a council already have to draw up proper local development or a housing association. frameworks that would allow them to refuse planning The CML and the IMLA both made the point that applications in the first place. It is ridiculous for the those schemes are actually about preventing repossession. Opposition constantly to blame the Government’s density Much of the benefit achieved by both schemes, including requirements and to pretend that local councils have no the one that was introduced as recently as April, has responsibility in the matter. been in encouraging those who are experiencing difficulties That brings me to the points that an Opposition to approach their lenders straight away. Regrettably, in worth their salt should have been making today, because the past, people having difficulty with their mortgages there are some things that the Government need to do tended to put their heads in the sand and hope that the more of in order to address the problems before us. The problem would go away. They would build up huge right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), arrears and at that point there would be repossessions. who is obsessed with regulation, made the astonishing The evidence from both of the current schemes is that point that he could not understand why house prices many people are going to their lenders first and that were falling even though housing need still exceeded lenders are exercising forbearance—although partly out housing supply. That is happening because there is no of self-interest. mortgage money.House prices, regrettably, do not respond Lenders have realised that it costs a lot for a mortgage to people’s need; they respond to people’s ability to company to repossess a property—about £35,000 to compete for a scarce resource, which bears almost no £37,000—and there is not a lot of point in doing that in relation to people’s need for housing. Regrettably, many the current circumstances, because they would not be people who need housing do not have the financial able to sell the property and recoup any losses. Lenders resources to express that need economically. have been persuaded, partly in their own self-interest In order to enable more people to gain access to the and partly because of the pressures put on them by housing market, we need to free up mortgage finance. central Government, that they should exercise forbearance, That is not within the gift of the Department for come to an agreement with their borrowers and use all Communities and Local Government; it is within the possible measures to maintain people in their homes, gift of the Treasury. Some very reasonable complaints thereby avoiding reaching the end of the process and were raised in the Select Committee about the asset-backed having to get the council or a housing association to securities guarantee scheme. I cannot go into the buy a property. technicalities now, but I refer the Minister to the transcript Simply to cite the figures for how many people reach of the evidence. Clearly, certain things need to be done the end of the process, as the hon. Gentleman did, is to to tinker with that scheme in order to get mortgage make a debating point. It shows that he does not give finance flowing more freely. That would help shared two hoots about the individuals involved and does not ownership and shared equity schemes, in particular, and want to have a constructive debate—and the same goes enable people to express their housing need economically. for his comments about the other mortgage scheme. The Government are taking certain steps to try to get [Interruption.] I notice that the hon. Gentleman is the housing market moving again. Evidence was given closing his ears, obviously because this is uncomfortable to the Select Committee by the two lenders as well as by to hear, which will be interesting for everybody out the National Housing Federation and the Home Builders there—not those in the Public Gallery, because there Federation, representing the housing associations and are not many there now, but for everybody who reads the builders. All those groupings said that the Government 745 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 746 were doing the right thing, but not enough of it, and low, so there is a real need, as house prices are very high that more money should be made available for the and social housing is going to take a major part of the schemes. In relation to the asset-backed securities guarantee strain. scheme in particular, they said that it was not just a As I said, there is no easy solution, but there is a question of more money, but that the Treasury should problem. Many Government Back Benchers have realised be prepared to take greater financial risks. I urge the that at the current rate of increase, it will not be many Government to consider that idea. years before as much as £1 billion will be raised from The major criticism that the Opposition have made tenants’ rents and then redistributed to other areas. The of the Government’s steps to cushion businesses and Minister said earlier that he would soon come up with a home owners from the effects of this recession is that we solution; we certainly need one soon. are spending too much money, that we have borrowed My hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield too much, and that we should be borrowing and spending (Grant Shapps) referred to home information packs, less. That is at complete variance with what was said by which were debated in connection with the Housing all those who gave evidence to the Select Committee. Bill. When we raised the question of what happens with They said that, if anything, the Government should be these packs, which are time limited, if people do not sell borrowing and spending more now in order to try to their homes, the Minister always assured us that everything restart house building, to keep the construction industry would be swept up when the home was eventually going and to ensure that the people whom we represent, sold—but if someone puts their house up for sale in the and care deeply about, can gain access to the housing current housing market and it does not sell for a while, that they need at a price that they can afford, either to they might have to provide two or three packs, with buy or to rent. attendant costs and consequences. An argument for I therefore urge the Government to consider increasing HIPs might be made in a booming economy, but in a their spending even more, because if we do not spend housing market that is extremely sticky and likely to that money now, the cost that society will subsequently remain so for a while, they are an additional burdensome have to bear of the lost opportunity to keep the house cost for people trying to sell their homes. They have building industry going will be immense, as will the cost become an impediment, so if my party gains the confidence to the people whom we represent, because more families of the British people and forms the next Government, it will have to live for longer in unsatisfactory and overcrowded will repeal the HIPs as an important element in the accommodation. Those costs will be borne by future strategy for housing market recovery. generations. I think that the Homes and Communities Agency is a welcome development. In the current economic situation, 9.4 pm it will play a major and important role in kick-starting Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Housing is an important some developments that have fallen by the wayside. My subject for many of our constituents, and I therefore hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire welcome this opportunity to make a small contribution (Mr. Lansley) mentioned the agency in the context of to the debate tonight. I have raised questions on a Cambridgeshire. number of occasions about the housing revenue account Clearly, the Government are doing some good things, and the negative subsidy. I do not pretend that there is but what they have done in other respects is surprising. an elegant or easy answer to this complex and difficult If someone had asked me in 1997 how many social question, but many areas of the country are contributing housing units I thought the Government would provide substantial sums of money, which is having a big impact during their term in office, I would have said, “Well, this on rents and on the ability of housing authorities and is a Labour Government, so they’ll provide a lot of arm’s length management organisations to deliver a social housing.” I know that decent homes standards service. It is not necessarily coming from the leafier or was their priority, but the reality is that the Government’s more prosperous areas of the UK. There are areas such record on building council housing and other forms of as Bolsover and Chesterfield—and even areas such as social housing has been remarkably poor. The hon. Barking and Dagenham in outer London—that have Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) often makes his major housing problems, but are contributing to the point with a degree of force and common sense. The pot. The Government need to come up with some kind result is that fewer houses are available for those who of long-term solution, so that authorities contributing a need them. lot of money can plan and perhaps provide some additional My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) housing stock—or at least spend money on reducing mentioned armed forces housing. I welcome the recent the voids. legislative change to allow members of the armed forces More importantly, when I talked to the Poole housing to count for something on housing lists. That is rather partnership, I found that it welcomed the decent homes a good thing. standard and the money spent on housing stock. It also The overall housing situation is one of great difficulty. said, however, that if it had to continue paying the I agree with the Minister that fewer people currently massive sums of money levied, it might not be able to losing their homes. Given that we have a crash market, maintain the housing stock in the long term. It might many lenders are being sensitive and sensible in their then have to look at some alternative arrangement and dealings with people, but that is not because of Government become more like a housing association. That would be policy. As we heard earlier, Government policy has a pity, because its satisfaction rates are very high. It is not achieved an awful lot. The Council of Mortgage empowering tenants, teaching them to do all sorts of Lenders has always said that provided that people who things like use computers and helping them with advice are in trouble tell lenders honestly that they are in on how to deal with debt. The relative income levels of trouble, it may well be possible to work out a solution. I council tenants in my Poole constituency are surprisingly welcome that. 747 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 748

[Mr. Robert Syms] In London as a whole, 200,000 families are living in overcrowded accommodation and 50,000 are living in As I said during the economic debate the other day, I temporary accommodation. Those figures are horrendous am not very pessimistic about the long term. I am by any stretch of the imagination. The position can be pessimistic about our levels of debt, but I am not dealt with only through a combination of policies, pessimistic about the British economy. I think that it including a large amount of public investment in housing will grow next year. Given the amount of money that for people in desperate need. the Government have spent, the devaluation and the While I understand why the Government are so sensitive reduction in interest rates, it would be very surprising if about the issues of home ownership and mortgages, I things did not start to move. In the light of some of the feel that, since the 1950s, the country has developed an initial figures that we are seeing, I think it legitimate to obsession with home ownership, often at the expense of say that the position is stabilising, and will probably social rented accommodation. There is an obsessive improve next year. belief that everyone should aspire to home ownership, I hope that that will cause the housing market to while council housing is seen as the housing of last stabilise as well. One of the big differences between the resort. I should love to see people being given a genuine situation today and the situation in the early 1990s is choice between renting and buying, with no social stigma the substantial level of personal debt among households. attached to not owning a home. We know that unemployment will rise, although we No other country in Europe has become involved in pray that it will not rise by too much. People who lose home ownership to the same degree, and no other country their jobs, who do not receive help with their mortgages in Europe has the same levels of excessive personal for quite some time, and who have credit card debts and debt—largely because of home ownership, or because other loans, will very quickly find themselves in financial of the ability to borrow against what were perceived to trouble. be permanently rising house values and all the problems Finally, let me point out to the Minister that Dudley that accompanied that. I believe that we should take a is one of the authorities that make a major contribution rain check, and think it all through a bit more. in the form of negative housing subsidy, and that that Both the Minister and the Conservative Front Bencher issue needs to be considered. We need a formula, which are new to their posts so I am sure they will find it may have to be a compromise. Clearly funds cannot be difficult to answer all the points raised, but I would be taken out of central London overnight, but we need grateful if they tried to deal with some of them. The some way of getting through the current circumstances. latest Government statement on house spending includes We should ensure that authorities such as the Poole the allocation of £100 million for new council development. housing partnership can plan, maintain their independence That is very good news, but it will not build many and provide a good service, but we should also have a homes. Although £100 million might sound like a lot of needs-based housing formula. money, council places in London cost about £100,000 per unit to develop. That allocation is a very good start, but we have to go a lot further, and a lot faster. We must 9.11 pm also recognise that one problem is that, because of the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I welcome Tory Government’s policies in the 1980s of pushing the debate, and congratulate both Ministers on their sales of council properties and compulsory competitive appointments. I look forward to hearing what the Under- tendering for council services, local authorities currently Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, do not have enough skilled architects, planners and my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Mr. Austin) all the other expertise required to develop a housing has to say in response to the debate. programme, as that has either been sold off or gone away. Over the past few years in London, it has generally I have the privilege of representing an inner-city been housing associations that have developed new community where housing is an enormous issue. Only housing—that is also the case in most other parts of the 30 per cent. of my constituents are owner-occupiers; the country. The Minister needs to look at a number of rest occupy council, housing association or privately issues in this regard, such as the relationship between rented properties. The levels of deprivation and housing associations and the Homes and Communities overcrowding are extremely serious. I compliment the Agency, and the possibility of zoning them because Government on the amount of money they have given there are some highly inefficient housing associations us to establish decent home standards, improvements with large numbers of properties scattered over a huge in community areas on estates and better estate area and the on-costs of managing them are very high. management—that has been a huge step forward and a The housing associations are aware of that, and some welcome development—but there are still many people of them are undertaking sensible transfers to bring on the housing waiting list, many who cannot even get about more efficient management. We also need to look on to the housing waiting list, and many on the internal at the democratic running of housing associations, because transfer list. there is a degree of accountability for council tenants The knock-on effects of overcrowding in producing and leaseholders as they can get hold of a councillor or poor health, under-achievement in education and all council official, but I do not find the same degree of the other social breakdown issues are often directly accountability in some housing associations. Some are related to housing. We all know of families who are exemplary, but others are truly awful in their management experiencing hard times because of overcrowding, but methods and their tenants’ representation methods, and when such families are given decent houses or flats, we need to be tougher with them. They are not private everything suddenly starts to look a great deal better. I companies; they are handling very large sums of public believe that we—Government and local authorities—must money and dealing with housing applicants who are do everything possible to improve the housing situation. nominated to them by local housing authorities. 749 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 750

I started my contribution by pointing out that in my Jeremy Corbyn: It takes but an hour. constituency, as in most in London, the fastest growing There are major issues to address. We must review the sector is the private rented sector. In an intervention on housing finance system to end what is, in effect, the the Minister I made the point that my local authority, taxation of council tenants and ensure that the money like many others, now routinely nominates people to the is fed back to meet the needs of people on housing private rented sector because there are no council or waiting lists. It should also go back into maintenance housing association places for those in desperate housing and support systems for existing housing stock and into need. The rent deposit is paid by the local authority, ending the discrimination against council tenants who and housing benefit pays for the rent; and the rent levels have freely made a choice not to undertake a stock are astronomical. I could give many examples of flats in transfer to a housing association and not to become the same council block where, for example, one is council- part of an arm’s length management organisation. They owned and is paid for by housing benefit of £100 a week should receive public sector support in exactly the same and the other has been bought under the right to buy way as anybody else does. and then rented out on the private market at £300 a I wish the Ministers well in their new positions. If we week, which is also paid for by housing benefit. The do not solve the housing crisis, the horrors of the rise of amount of public money we are pouring into the pockets the far right and of the British National party, and the of private landlords is ludicrous; the total is several destruction of so many people’s lives because of bad billions per year in London. The total housing benefit health, educational under-achievement and family break-up, bill in London is about £4 billion; I do not know the will continue. It is our duty to conquer the housing exact breakdown between the public and private sectors, crisis in this country. but I am sure the unit cost of private rented accommodation is much higher. In the short term, there is not a lot we can do about that, as the private rented sector is providing 9.22 pm housing for people, but rent controls in the private Nadine Dorries (Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con): I congratulate sector would prevent profiteering. Above all, we should the Minister on his new role. I thought he was still a provide far more places built to a decent standard, Whip and had got lost, so I was delighted to learn that because I am shocked and appalled by the conditions of he has been promoted, and I hope he does very well. the private rented accommodation in which many people are placed at present. I benefited from right to buy, without which my family would still be living on a Liverpool council Members’ work at our advice surgeries has made us estate. When I canvass the housing association areas in all armchair experts on housing allocation policies. my constituency, people always say to me, “We love People come to us and say, “I’d like to get a house as living here and we love our house. We wish we could we’re a bit overcrowded.” I look up and ask, “Any buy it. We wish it was ours and we could pay for it illness in the family?” They reply, “Not much”, so I say, ourselves.” I wanted to make that point before going on “How much? What’s wrong with you?” When they tell to discuss eco-towns. Perhaps the Minister will respond me, I say, “Yes, that sounds bad.” We go through the by outlining the Government’s thinking, and what his whole process, and then I might think that they will get thinking is as a new Minister, on right to buy. Will that a few more medical, overcrowding or sharing points. be made available again? There is an entire science involved. I wish that that science did not exist; I wish it was not necessary. Within Will the Minister clarify the position on eco-towns? that science, we endlessly change what the priorities are, My constituency was targeted to have an eco-town of and two groups of people, at opposite ends of the scale, 20,000 new homes. There was no rhyme or reason to the lose out. First, most local authorities have long since proposed site of the eco-town. It was in the middle of ceased to house single people unless they are either very green fields, next to a lake, in a valley; it was nowhere vulnerable or desperately ill. There are many very aggrieved near any infrastructure, hospitals, doctors, shops, rail single people in their 20s and 30s who have chosen to networks, public transport or road networks. The proposal lead a single life—that is their lifestyle choice—but have was to put the eco-town in the middle of the local no chance of getting local authority housing. They have beauty spot and that made no sense. As far as my no chance of buying because their salaries are not high constituents are aware, that project has died a death, enough and they even find it difficult to go into shared but will the Minister confirm that? Can the people of ownership. We need to examine the lifestyle choices that Mid-Bedfordshire say goodbye to the eco-town? people are making and start to reflect them a bit more. I would like to inform the Minister of a positive effect Let us move to the other end of the scale. The building that the eco-town proposal had for Mid-Bedfordshire: programmes of local authorities, housing associations it made residents very aware of the dangers presented and private sector developers are all ignoring large by Government house building targets. My constituents families—they do exist. We need family-sized housing realised that the Government could allocate a target to be constructed as part of the entire development and an area and they would have very little say in what programme. was built, how it would look, where it was positioned, Lastly, the Minister has doubtless been made aware how large it would be and whether it would serve any of and fully understands all the issues associated with useful purpose. That energised my constituents. I have council housing and its finance. He has had plenty of harnessed that energy and made good use of it, and at a time to get his head round that, having been in the job a large public meeting we formed a constituency-wide whole day. housing committee; another meeting is to take place in September. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for We have formed three more committees from that Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): one: a central planning committee to identify where we Half a day. think housing is needed and should go, the type of 751 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 752

[Nadine Dorries] the proposed town. No decision could be taken about whether it should be targeted at sustainability level 4 or housing it should be and the local needs it should meet; level 5, and what would happen by 2020 when it was a tourism committee, because we would like the growth built and fully developed. Those are huge problems, and development targets in Mid-Bedfordshire to be met if the Minister answers none of my other questions I through tourism; and an environmental committee to hope that he at least can confirm that the eco-town examine the impact of housing on the area. The three proposal in Mid-Bedfordshire is dead. Is that the last committees will all report to the central Westminster that we will see of it? That is important information for forum, and we will feed that information into the new the residents, and for the committee that was formed Central Bedfordshire authority. because they were energised by that unwanted proposal, The reason we are doing that is that, as I am sure the to take into account in our proposals to the Central Minister is aware, the East of England regional assembly Bedfordshire authority. recently published a report in which it stated, having talked to developers, that there should be up to 120,000 additional homes placed in Mid-Bedfordshire. Given 9.30 pm that we have only 77,000 homes at the moment, that is an incredible number of homes, and it would more than Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I am grateful to colleagues double the number in the area. As one can imagine, for listening to Madam Deputy Speaker’s requests to many residents were alarmed about that. keep speeches short so that everybody can take part in this debate. One reason for our alarm was that we sit between Luton and Bedford. I do not know whether the Minister In welcoming the new Minister for Housing to his has been to either area, but both are desperately in need inaugural debate, I could not help but note his telling of inward investment and urban regeneration. The hospitals, observation that our homes matter more than anything Bedford hospital and the Luton and Dunstable hospital, else. That is obviously true, but if people do not have a are based there. The main employers are based in those home, or if where they are living is not adequate for areas, and they have good public transport, good road their family’s needs, the observation is an empty statement and rail links and good bus routes. There are good that means nothing. Unless people have a decent home, schools, which are not full, as those in my constituency they cannot say that their homes matter more than are. There are doctors’ practices there, whereas there are anything else. no places on doctors’ waiting lists in Mid-Bedfordshire. The 2009 Budget will barely make a dent in the There are dentists, whereas there are no dentists in 1.8 million households estimated to be on the waiting Mid-Bedfordshire. list for housing. The £100 million for council house Both Luton and Bedford have large numbers of people building will produce fewer than 1,000 houses. Some who need social housing or are on housing association 400,000 children live in poverty, so the Government’s waiting lists. They have employment and they live in the pledges in “Every Child Matters” are meaningless if areas that need investment in housing. Yet, for some those children have nowhere decent to live. reason, the Government have decided that the housing should be placed in Mid-Bedfordshire, between those It is not often that I am almost moved to tears, two areas but with no bus routes, no links, no employment because I have been around long enough to see neglect and no infrastructure. and poverty before. But we are now in the third millennium I ask the Minister to let us know why, if he feels that in the fourth or fifth richest country in the world. Short Bedfordshire needs such a high density of housing, it is of failure to defend the realm, the biggest sin that any not appropriate to put that housing in the areas where Government can commit is to fail to house our people. the people in Bedfordshire are screaming out for it The Government of Clement Attlee were recovering rather than in an area that is mainly agricultural and from war, but they managed to build council houses. has no employment and no employers looking to move Successive Conservative and Labour Governments also in. One housing proposal that was halfway through managed to do so for some 45 years. The record shows being built in Wixams has been blanketed, and the that Conservative Governments built marginally more developers have walked away from it. It is not now council houses than Labour Governments—there was being built, for the reasons that I have highlighted. almost a race to see who could build the most. Some Nobody is interested in the homes, because there is no 25 years ago, housing shortages had virtually ended employment. Can the Minister please inform me why and, in my town, there was no such thing as bed-and- he is not looking at the areas that need the houses to breakfast accommodation for the homeless. be built? When Ministers tell the House that bed-and-breakfast We are not nimbyist in Bedfordshire. We are not accommodation has ended, they are wrong. I was nearly saying, “No building in our backyard, we don’t need brought to tears by the sight of three little girls, aged any.” Of course we do. We have a population that is two, four and six, running around the waiting room at growing at such a rate that we need homes, including my advice surgery. They had done nothing wrong. social housing, but nowhere near 120,000 homes. As Whatever problems their parents may have had that put one can imagine, that is an alarming figure, and that is them in bed and breakfast—they are now on their why our committee has been set up and is feeding into second B and B, in Ipswich, having been exiled to the new Central Bedfordshire authority, which I am Suffolk, even though the girls’ school is in Colchester—the sure will challenge those figures and challenge the children have done nothing wrong. The cost of keeping Government head-on. that family in bed and breakfast is considerably greater I should like to finish, as another Member wishes to than if they had been allowed to stay in their housing speak, but first I return to the eco-town. As the Minister association house, even though rent arrears had accrued. knows, there were problems with the sustainability of That would have been cheaper and it would not have 753 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 754 destroyed the family—I fear that the next step will be management is not local, there is a danger that antisocial for the children to be taken into care. I hope that that problems will arise. I urge the new ministerial team to does not happen. implore the HCA to rationalise the housing associations The last two lines of the Liberal Democrat amendment, so that there are fewer housing associations in each which can be found on the Order Paper, would have location and to provide on-site supervision or management been standard Conservative and Labour party policy at least within the borough or district. throughout the ’40s, ’50s, ’60s and ’70s. They refer to the need to 9.39 pm “invest in a large-scale homebuilding programme to address the crisis in social housing which disproportionately impacts on the Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): This is the second most vulnerable.” housing debate that we have had in nearly as many If we insert the word “council”for “social”, hon. Members months. Despite what has been said by Government will know exactly where I am coming from. Members, our first debate focused on the important issue of social housing but we felt that there was more The hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) to talk about, as housing is such a vital issue for our made a powerful speech, with which I agreed. The hon. party. We therefore wanted to hold a second debate Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) referred to rural housing. today, in our Opposition time, to highlight the many I represent an urban constituency, but the consequences major issues affecting housing in England. In fact, we of the failure to provide council housing in villages that called this debate to represent the real concerns and would enable the next generation of the indigenous difficulties in respect of housing that are faced by population to live there mean that families are quite millions of people in Britain—the first-time buyers often driven into the nearest towns, where the housing finding it almost impossible to get on to the housing problems are then exacerbated. ladder, the home owners struggling to pay their mortgages Reference has been made to empty dwellings in both and stay in their homes, and the families stranded in the private and public sector. In fact, there is sometimes overcrowded houses or whose names lie on forgotten not a housing shortage but rather a mismatch because waiting lists. Above all, the underlying problem that there are so many empty dwellings. In my constituency, Ministers never want to talk about is the present depressed the garrison town of Colchester, there are in excess of rate of house building. As of 2008, it has been lower in 200 empty family houses on the Army estate owned not every year of this Administration than it was in even the by the Ministry of Defence but by Annington Homes, worst years of the Major or Thatcher Governments. because the Conservative Government privatised them. The people we represent face uncertainty and anxiety The public purse is paying £3,500 a year for every one of about whether they will get a home or keep the one that those houses to stand empty. What a great tragedy it is they have. If their circumstances change and they have that one of these houses could not be made available for to move, they are worried about whether they can the family of the three little girls who are in bed and remain in housing that meets their needs. Yet again, breakfast in Ipswich. A compassionate Government Ministers have talked a good game today about tackling would do something about that. I ask the Minister and housing issues—as ever, we have a lot of warm words—but his ministerial team to make urgent inquiries into why I am afraid that the delivery has been sadly lacking. In those 200 empty dwellings in my constituency cannot be both the good times and the bad times in our economy, brought back into public use, when the public purse is there have been a series of failed schemes, headline-grabbing paying to allow them to stand empty. initiatives and misguided policies. The result is that Britain’s housing is in a very sorry state indeed. Nadine Dorries: The hon. Gentleman mentioned 200 homes owned by Aragon Housing Association. Concerns have been raised by hon. Members of all When we have such situations in my constituency, I go parties about what is happening in their constituencies. to see Aragon, we discuss the problems and they are The hon. Member for Regent’s Park and Kensington, usually resolved. In my experience, it is a good housing North (Ms Buck) talked about the challenges faced by association. Does the hon. Gentleman not feel that he leaseholders, and she pointed out that we must make could do something about that himself? sure that our desire to enable people to get on to the housing ladder is implemented in a sustainable way. Bob Russell: I would never use the words “good That was a fair point to raise. housing association” to describe Annington Homes. I The hon. Lady doubted the Opposition’s commitment can assure the hon. Lady that the experience of Annington to social housing, but I assure her that we would not Homes in my constituency for serving members of Her have devoted two debates to housing if we did not Majesty’s armed forces and for those who have bought recognise how important the topic was. We may have houses that Annington Homes has sold on to the private debates about policy, but we would not spend time sector would not lead me to describe it as a good listening to the concerns expressed by hon. Members in housing association. this House and by people out in the country if we did Let me conclude on the question of the Homes and not recognise the importance of the issue. As a prospective Communities Agency and housing associations. During Government in waiting, my party must be able to give the course of this debate, I tried to add up the total people a proper alternative whenever the next election is number of housing associations in my constituency. I held, and that means that we must have an informed got to 10, plus Colchester Borough Homes. Is it not policy on housing. time that we had a rationalisation of housing associations We also heard from a number of Opposition Members in different areas? The majority of these housing in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for South associations do not have any local management. As I Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) said that communities am sure that we all know from our advice bureaux, if can come up with good suggestions about where housing 755 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 756

[Justine Greening] Government does not know how to define them. Only under a Labour Government could one Department should go. He said that people will take responsibility have a definition and another say that there is no for discussing how their housing needs can be met, and definition. my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) made We heard about eco-towns, a complete disaster project a similar point. that ran into the sands because local people said no. We Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Islington, North know that green issues are important to people throughout (Jeremy Corbyn) is not in his place, but he made some the country, yet when it came to smuggling in eco-towns very fair points in expressing about his concerns about through house building in inappropriate places, as my housing associations. He spoke about the need to make hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Nadine sure that they are accountable to the tenants whom they Dorries) pointed out, local communities will not have look after, and he made some thoughtful observations it. They want Whitehall to work with them and give about housing waiting lists and the housing allocation them the responsibility for deciding where the extra priorities that local authorities constantly have to juggle. housing will be. They do not want the top-down targets I am sure that we can all relate to what the hon. that the Government have given them. Gentleman said, but the problem underlying everything Let us not forget the disaster of the botched is the fact that the amount of our housing stock is so announcement on stamp duty last summer. We have not constrained. That is why we have to keep coming back talked about that today, but if the housing market was to the Government’s lack of delivery on housing. They under strain up until then, the Chancellor managed to have been in office for 12 years now, so we cannot stagnate it with that botched announcement and totally say, “Well, it may get better in a few years.” All the dried up the market in a way that would have been hard evidence suggests that there is something fundamentally to achieve if someone had had to sit down and think flawed in the Government’s approach to housing about it as a challenge, but the Chancellor managed it. policy, as otherwise more houses would have been built The range and gravity of housing problems under the before now. present Government and the Department are clear to We know that people are finding it hard to get on to see. Fewer houses are being built, and there is greater the property ladder, as the number of first-time buyers overcrowding, growing waiting lists, falling home ownership fell to an estimated 300,000 in 2007, compared to 500,000 and rising repossessions. The Government’s record on 10 years before. There are also real concerns about housing is reflected in the chaos that we have seen over sustainability: in 2007, nearly one mortgage in 10 was the past week in the Communities and Local Government for 100 per cent. or more, and the problem is made team. The Housing Minister has gone. The Communities worse by the lack of house building. On average, Secretary has gone. Even the Under-Secretaries were 23,000 fewer homes have been built every year under moved. They are not here today to defend their record this Government, and housing starts this year are at on housing, but given the Government’s history of their lowest since the 1920s. Social housing is beset with decisions in this area, perhaps leaving their team was problems, too. As we heard, there are 1.8 million people the one good decision that they have made so far. on the waiting list. That is the consequence of a steady We cannot go on as we are. We can tackle the issues lack of house building in Britain over the past 12 years. that we have been debating today—get rid of home That is compounded by the fact that people who information packs, take nine of 10 first-time buyers out have accommodation often find it unsuitable. We have of stamp duty, get rid of the top-down targets set 560,000 households living in overcrowded conditions in through the regional spatial strategy, and have local England, and 200,000 of those households are right housing trusts that make sure that local communities here in London. I am sure that many London MPs who can decide for themselves how much new housing they participated in the debate today see those people in have and where it is located. However, we will not their surgeries every day. It is difficult to discuss their resolve any of these important matters until we have a problems because of the underlying fact that not enough general election. We have heard 12 years of failed new housing is being built to give them a chance of housing policy. It is time to give the British people the having a home that meets their needs. general election that they so desperately need. Then we can have a Conservative Government who can deliver We spoke about the people who own their home but the sort of housing policy that will make a real difference are struggling to stay in it. Repossession claims have to families throughout the country. soared from 67,000 a year in 1997 to a staggering 143,000 repossessions in 2008. The Government have talked the talk about how to help these people, but the 9.49 pm mortgage rescue scheme that the Government launched The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for has helped just two people. Ministers may say that it Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): I will take time for the scheme to produce results, but that thank Opposition Members for welcoming me and my was not the message last year when it was launched. right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing to our new Expectations have been badly let down by the scheme. positions. This evening’s debate has been a very useful There has been a range of failed housing policies, early induction for both of us, not least because it has such as home information packs, which add cost to the been such a good debate among Members in all parts of sale process and stifle the supply to the market. Only the House. today, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors Despite the disappointment about the changes, to said that it thought that HIPs had held back the market. which the Opposition’s motion refers, I am delighted to As we heard, we still have no definition of a zero-carbon be doing this job, because for many people their homes home. The Treasury has given tax relief on 18 homes, are not just their greatest asset but their greatest source but the Department for Communities and Local of security and a strong foundation on which so much 757 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 758 else depends: good health, getting a job, building a increased the availability of shared equity schemes and career, fulfilling potential at school and being part of a introduced a new “rent first, buy later” scheme. Demand community. My predecessor as Under-Secretary, my for our existing schemes remains high. hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Wright), made a similar point in a similar debate several months Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) ago, when he said that housing brings safety, security, (Con): Will the Minister give way? community cohesion, health, life chances, prosperity and a host of other issues. I pay tribute to the work that Mr. Austin: I shall be responding to the points that he did and welcome all contributions that all Members were made by those people who were present for the have made today. whole debate. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing rightly There were more than 6,000 sales under the open set out this Government’s impressive housing record, market homebuy scheme in 2008-09, and from the which the motion before us entirely ignored. He set out experience of the 1990s we also know how destructive also our efforts to maintain and build on that record, an economic downturn can be for the construction despite the difficult economic circumstances. We have industry. We cannot afford to make the same mistakes been proactive and decisive, learning from the experience twice, so we have put in place a comprehensive package of the 1990s about the consequences of delay and of support: £1 billion at the Budget; buying up unsold inaction. Although the motion finds fault in a number stock from developers; bringing forward funding for of our policies, it fails to propose any alternative. The affordable housing, including higher grant rates where Opposition obviously want to criticise our record on needed; and the new kick-start fund to get faltering housing supply, because that is what they are there for, schemes going again. My right hon. Friend clearly but they do not tell us that this Government’s efforts demonstrated the scale of the Government’s efforts to led to the highest levels of house building in 30 years reduce the damage of the downturn on households and in 2007-08. the construction industry now and in the future. The Opposition’s motion also neglects to mention the I shall now turn to the specific points that were made 110,000 households that have been helped into shared in the debate. My hon. Friend— ownership and shared equity through our programmes, and the £29 billion that we have invested since 1997 to Justine Greening: Will the Minister give way? bring more than 1 million social rented homes up to scratch. The Opposition also failed to mention the Mr. Austin: My hon. Friend the Member for— significant strides that we have made on homelessness, rough sleeping and temporary accommodation: statutory Justine Greening: Will the Minister give way? homelessness decreased by 60 per cent. between 2003 and 2008; rough sleeping has fallen by 74 per cent.; the Mr. Austin: Go on then. number of households in temporary accommodation is down by 33 per cent.; and we have ended the long-term Justine Greening: Housing starts are at their lowest use of bed and breakfast accommodation for families level since the 1920s; who does the Minister think is with children. responsible for that? Is it the fault of his Government’s That is an impressive track record. Every previous failed policy, or of the construction industry? Housing Minister should be very proud of it, and we are committed to building on it. That is why we have Mr. Austin: I will deal with that point in due course, acted proactively and decisively in the economic downturn but the point that I wanted to make related to my hon. to help people at risk of repossession, first-time buyers Friend the Member for Regent’s Park and Kensington, and the construction industry. Our priority has been North (Ms Buck), who spoke with great eloquence to help those in financial difficulties to stay in their about the impact on families who face repossession, homes wherever possible, which contrasts with the 1990s, and the position of leaseholders. I congratulate her on when the Government failed to act while people lost the work that she is doing to protect her constituents their homes. from a local Conservative council, whose policies were My right hon. Friend spoke about the wide range of set out in great detail. measures that we have introduced—to strengthen universal My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, support and to bring in specific schemes—and, as a South-West (Dr. Starkey), the Chair of the Communities result, the Council of Mortgage Lenders is now expected and Local Government Committee, speaking with a to revise downwards its forecasts of repossessions. Although knowledge and expertise that few in the House can our critics clearly want to focus on the number of match, made a fascinating contribution and a devastating households at the final stages of specific schemes, they critique of the Opposition’s case. My hon. Friend the do not want to talk about the real help that families are Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn), who receiving. Lenders covering 80 per cent. of the market has made himself an expert on housing issues, made a either have signed up to the home owner mortgage thoughtful speech about the state of the housing market support scheme or offer their own comparative and the need to remove the stigma attached to rented arrangements. Thousands of families are getting free housing. [Interruption.] I shall move on to the questions advice from their local councils every month and lenders asked by the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member now have to prove to the courts that they have exhausted for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), if I may. all other options before seeking to repossess. First, I point out that my hon. Friend the Member We have also introduced new support, in light of the for Islington, North and the hon. Member for Colchester restricted global supply of credit, to help first-time (Bob Russell) asked questions about the housing association buyers get a foot on the housing ladder. We have also movement. We have set up a new regulator for social 759 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 760

[Mr. Ian Austin] Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. Question agreed to. housing, the Tenant Services Authority, which will drive Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), improvements in standards and place tenants at the That the original words stand part of the Question. heart of regulation. It will also have a wider range of powers to intervene when things go wrong. The House divided: Ayes 208, Noes 298. The hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield raised a number Division No. 144] [9.59 pm of questions about the impact of the Government schemes. He asked how many additional lenders had confirmed AYES that they were signing up to the home owner mortgage Afriyie, Adam Gidley, Sandra support scheme. I can tell him that Lloyds bank, Northern Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Rock, the Royal Bank of Scotland, Bradford & Bingley, Amess, Mr. David Goodman, Mr. Paul Cumberland building society and others signed up to Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Goodwill, Mr. Robert the scheme at its launch. He will be interested to hear Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Gove, Michael that a number of others have confirmed that they will Atkinson, Mr. Peter Gray, Mr. James offer the scheme as soon as possible, including the Bacon, Mr. Richard Grayling, Chris Bank of Ireland, GMAC RFC, GE Money and others. Baker, Norman Green, Damian There is no cut-off point by which lenders must sign up Baron, Mr. John Greening, Justine to the scheme. Barrett, John Greenway, Mr. John Beith, rh Sir Alan Grieve, Mr. Dominic The hon. Gentleman asked about take-up of the Bellingham, Mr. Henry Gummer, rh Mr. John home owner mortgage support scheme. It is a new Benyon, Mr. Richard Hague, rh Mr. William scheme; nothing like it has ever been tried before. It Bercow, John Hammond, Mr. Philip enables eligible households in short-term difficulties to Beresford, Sir Paul Hammond, Stephen defer part of their mortgage interest payments. Lenders Binley, Mr. Brian Harper, Mr. Mark covering more than 80 per cent. of the market have Blunt, Mr. Crispin Harvey, Nick either signed up to offer the Government-backed scheme Bone, Mr. Peter Hayes, Mr. John or are offering comparable arrangements. Both the Boswell, Mr. Tim Heald, Mr. Oliver Council of Mortgage Lenders and the Intermediary Bottomley, Peter Heath, Mr. David Mortgage Lenders Association have welcomed the impact Brady, Mr. Graham Heathcoat-Amory, rh Brake, Tom Mr. David that the scheme is already having on borrowers getting Brazier, Mr. Julian Hemming, John in contact with their lenders to discuss options. Brokenshire, James Hendry, Charles The hon. Gentleman talked about the low take-up of Brooke, Annette Herbert, Nick the mortgage rescue scheme. It is targeted at vulnerable Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hoban, Mr. Mark households—those made up of the elderly or the disabled Browning, Angela Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas and those with children—who would be eligible for help Bruce, rh Malcolm Hollobone, Mr. Philip under homelessness legislation if their homes were Burns, Mr. Simon Holloway, Mr. Adam repossessed. The scheme involves households getting Burrowes, Mr. David Holmes, Paul thorough advice on their financial circumstances, and Burt, Alistair Horam, Mr. John Campbell, Mr. Gregory Horwood, Martin selling part of their home, which takes time. [HON. Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Howard, rh Mr. Michael MEMBERS: “How many?”] More than 130 households Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Howarth, David have had repossession action against them halted, and Carswell, Mr. Douglas Howarth, Mr. Gerald more than 1,000 households struggling with their mortgage Chope, Mr. Christopher Howell, John have received free advice from their local authority. We Clappison, Mr. James Hughes, Simon believe that 6,000 households will be helped over the Clark, Greg Huhne, Chris next two years. Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hunt, Mr. Jeremy I hate to disappoint the hon. Member for Mid- Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hurd, Mr. Nick Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries), but I can only tell her Cormack, Sir Patrick Jack, rh Mr. Michael Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Jackson, Mr. Stewart that the eco-town programme was designed to deliver a Crabb, Mr. Stephen Jones, Mr. David final shortlist of up to 10 potential locations. However, Davies, David T.C. Kawczynski, Daniel decisions will be made on the basis of quality, not (Monmouth) Keetch, Mr. Paul quantity. I cannot comment on specific areas, but it is Davies, Philip Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles not a done deal, and no decisions have been made on Davis, rh David Key, Robert the locations in which work will go forward. The other Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Kirkbride, Miss Julie point that she made was about the right to buy, Dorries, Nadine Laing, Mrs. Eleanor which has helped thousands of families to realise Duncan, Alan Lait, Mrs. Jacqui their aspiration to own their homes. The Government Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Lamb, Norman completely support it. Dunne, Mr. Philip Lancaster, Mr. Mark Evennett, Mr. David Lansley, Mr. Andrew Fabricant, Michael Laws, Mr. David Mr. Flello: I welcome my hon. Friend to his position, Farron, Tim Leech, Mr. John and congratulate him on a great start on his first day in Field, Mr. Mark Leigh, Mr. Edward his new role. I look forward to hearing him make many Fraser, Christopher Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver more speeches at the Dispatch Box. [Interruption.] Gale, Mr. Roger Lewis, Dr. Julian When I am permitted to speak— Garnier, Mr. Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Gauke, Mr. David Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con) George, Andrew Loughton, Tim claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Gibb, Mr. Nick Luff, Peter 761 Housing9 JUNE 2009 Housing 762

Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Spicer, Sir Michael Cawsey, Mr. Ian Havard, Mr. Dai Main, Anne Spink, Bob Challen, Colin Healey, rh John Maples, Mr. John Spring, Mr. Richard Chapman, Ben Henderson, Mr. Doug Maude, rh Mr. Francis Stanley, rh Sir John Clapham, Mr. Michael Hendrick, Mr. Mark May, rh Mrs. Theresa Streeter, Mr. Gary Clark, Paul Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Stunell, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hill, rh Keith McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Swayne, Mr. Desmond Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mercer, Patrick Swire, Mr. Hugo Clelland, Mr. David Hoey, Kate Miller, Mrs. Maria Syms, Mr. Robert Clwyd, rh Ann Hood, Mr. Jim Milton, Anne Tapsell, Sir Peter Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moss, Mr. Malcolm Taylor, Mr. Ian Coffey, Ann Hope, Phil Mulholland, Greg Teather, Sarah Cohen, Harry Hopkins, Kelvin Mundell, David Thurso, John Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George Murrison, Dr. Andrew Timpson, Mr. Edward Cook, Frank Howells, rh Dr. Kim Newmark, Mr. Brooks Tredinnick, David Cooper, Rosie Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Öpik, Lembit Turner, Mr. Andrew Corbyn, Jeremy Hughes, rh Beverley Paice, Mr. James Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Crausby, Mr. David Humble, Mrs. Joan Paterson, Mr. Owen Vaizey, Mr. Edward Creagh, Mary Hutton, rh Mr. John Penning, Mike Vara, Mr. Shailesh Cruddas, Jon Iddon, Dr. Brian Penrose, John Viggers, Sir Peter Cryer, Mrs. Ann Illsley, Mr. Eric Pickles, Mr. Eric Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cummings, John Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Prisk, Mr. Mark Walker, Mr. Charles Cunningham, Mr. Jim Irranca-Davies, Huw Pritchard, Mark Wallace, Mr. Ben Cunningham, Tony James, Mrs. Siân C. Pugh, Dr. John Walter, Mr. Robert Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Jenkins, Mr. Brian Redwood, rh Mr. John Waterson, Mr. Nigel David, Mr. Wayne Johnson, rh Alan Reid, Mr. Alan Watkinson, Angela Davidson, Mr. Ian Johnson, Ms Diana R. Rennie, Willie Webb, Steve Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Helen Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Whittingdale, Mr. John Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Mr. Kevan Robertson, Hugh Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Lynne Robertson, Mr. Laurence Wiggin, Bill Denham, rh Mr. John Jones, Mr. Martyn Robinson, Mrs. Iris Willetts, Mr. David Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jowell, rh Tessa Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Williams, Mark Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rogerson, Dan Williams, Mr. Roger Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Rosindell, Andrew Willott, Jenny Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara Rowen, Paul Wilshire, Mr. David Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keen, Alan Ruffley, Mr. David Wilson, Mr. Rob Doran, Mr. Frank Keen, Ann Russell, Bob Winterton, Ann Dowd, Jim Kelly, rh Ruth Scott, Mr. Lee Winterton, Sir Nicholas Drew, Mr. David Kemp, Mr. Fraser Eagle, Angela Khan, Mr. Sadiq Selous, Andrew Yeo, Mr. Tim Shapps, Grant Eagle, Maria Kidney, Mr. David Young, rh Sir George Shepherd, Mr. Richard Efford, Clive Knight, rh Jim Younger-Ross, Richard Simmonds, Mark Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kumar, Dr. Ashok Simpson, David Tellers for the Ayes: Engel, Natascha Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Smith, Sir Robert James Duddridge and Ennis, Jeff Lammy, rh Mr. David Soames, Mr. Nicholas Jeremy Wright Etherington, Bill Laxton, Mr. Bob Field, rh Mr. Frank Lazarowicz, Mark NOES Fisher, Mark Lepper, David Fitzpatrick, Jim Levitt, Tom Abbott, Ms Diane Betts, Mr. Clive Flello, Mr. Robert Lewis, Mr. Ivan Ainger, Nick Blackman, Liz Flynn, Paul Linton, Martin Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Foster, Mr. Michael Lloyd, Tony Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Blunkett, rh Mr. David (Worcester) Love, Mr. Andrew Allen, Mr. Graham Borrow, Mr. David S. Foster, Michael Jabez Lucas, Ian Anderson, Mr. David Bradshaw, Mr. Ben (Hastings and Rye) Mackinlay, Andrew Anderson, Janet Brennan, Kevin Francis, Dr. Hywel MacNeil, Mr. Angus Atkins, Charlotte Brown, Lyn Gapes, Mike MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Austin, Mr. Ian Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gardiner, Barry Mactaggart, Fiona Austin, John Brown, Mr. Russell George, rh Mr. Bruce Malik, Mr. Shahid Bailey, Mr. Adrian Browne, rh Des Gilroy, Linda Mallaber, Judy Baird, Vera Bryant, Chris Godsiff, Mr. Roger Mann, John Balls, rh Ed Buck, Ms Karen Goggins, Paul Marris, Rob Banks, Gordon Burden, Richard Goodman, Helen Marsden, Mr. Gordon Barlow, Ms Celia Burgon, Colin Griffith, Nia Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Burnham, rh Andy Griffiths, Nigel Martlew, Mr. Eric Battle, rh John Butler, Ms Dawn Gwynne, Andrew Mason, John Bayley, Hugh Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Hain, rh Mr. Peter McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Beckett, rh Margaret Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hall, Mr. Mike McCabe, Steve Begg, Miss Anne Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hall, Patrick McCafferty, Chris Bell, Sir Stuart Cairns, David Hamilton, Mr. David McCarthy, Kerry Benn, rh Hilary Campbell, Mr. Alan Hanson, rh Mr. David McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Benton, Mr. Joe Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Harman, rh Ms Harriet McDonagh, Siobhain Berry, Roger Caton, Mr. Martin Harris, Mr. Tom McDonnell, John 763 Housing 9 JUNE 2009 764

McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Simon, Mr. Siôn Mortgage Rescue Scheme and many more are expected to benefit McFall, rh John Simpson, Alan through the Homeowners Mortgage Support scheme and pre-action McGovern, Mr. Jim Skinner, Mr. Dennis protocol; further notes that the Government has helped over McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Slaughter, Mr. Andy 110,000 households into shared ownership and shared equity McIsaac, Shona Smith, rh Mr. Andrew since 1997 and that demand for HomeBuy remains high; believes McKechin, Ann Smith, Ms Angela C. that the Government’s zero carbon homes policy is a ground-breaking Meacher, rh Mr. Michael (Sheffield, Hillsborough) contribution to the fight against climate change; notes that planning Merron, Gillian Smith, Angela E. (Basildon) policy makes clear the need for more family homes and that the Michael, rh Alun Smith, Geraldine Government is reviewing the evidence on garden development; Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Snelgrove, Anne notes that the highest rate of housing supply since 1977 was reached in 2007-08 and that the Government has brought forward Miller, Andrew Soulsby, Sir Peter many measures to help the construction industry, most recently Mitchell, Mr. Austin Southworth, Helen £1 billion in the 2009 Budget, including £400 million to unblock Moffatt, Laura Spellar, rh Mr. John stalled development and £100 million for council house building; Mole, Chris Starkey, Dr. Phyllis further notes that regional planning is open and transparent and Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Stewart, Ian that regional planning bodies are required to take into account Morgan, Julie Stoate, Dr. Howard housing need; believes there is no evidence that Home Information Mountford, Kali Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Packs have any adverse impact on the market; and further notes Mudie, Mr. George Stringer, Graham that the Government is pursuing reform of council housing Mullin, Mr. Chris Stuart, Ms Gisela finance and the private rented sector and has set up the Tenant Munn, Meg Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Services Authority to raise standards by putting tenants at the Murphy, Mr. Denis Tami, Mark heart of regulation. Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Taylor, David Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Thomas, Mr. Gareth Business without Debate Naysmith, Dr. Doug Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Norris, Dan Tipping, Paddy O’Brien, Mr. Mike Todd, Mr. Mark DELEGATED LEGISLATION O’Hara, Mr. Edward Touhig, rh Mr. Don Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Olner, Mr. Bill Trickett, Jon Order No. 118(6)), Osborne, Sandra Turner, Dr. Desmond Owen, Albert Turner, Mr. Neil LEGAL SERVICES Palmer, Dr. Nick Twigg, Derek That the draft Probate Services (Approved Bodies) Order 2009, Pearson, Ian Ussher, Kitty which was laid before this House on 6 May, be approved.— Plaskitt, Mr. James Vis, Dr. Rudi (Ms Butler.) Pope, Mr. Greg Walley, Joan Question agreed to. Prescott, rh Mr. John Primarolo, rh Dawn Waltho, Lynda Prosser, Gwyn Ward, Claire PETITIONS Watts, Mr. Dave Purchase, Mr. Ken Flooding (Cotswolds) Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Whitehead, Dr. Alan Reed, Mr. Andy Wicks, rh Malcolm Riordan, Mrs. Linda Williams, rh Mr. Alan 10.15 pm Robertson, John Williams, Mrs. Betty Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): The Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Wills, rh Mr. Michael petition states: Rooney, Mr. Terry Wilson, Phil The Petition of Moreton-in-Marsh Resilience Group, and Roy, Mr. Frank Winnick, Mr. David others, Roy, Lindsay Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Declares that Moreton-in-Marsh is at risk from further serious Ruane, Chris Wishart, Pete flooding; further declares that following severe flooding in July Ruddock, Joan Wood, Mike 2007 when 260 homes and premises were flooded, minimal action Russell, Christine Woolas, Mr. Phil has been taken to repair flood relief channels and also gullies, Ryan, rh Joan Wright, Mr. Anthony drains and culverts remain blocked after almost two years; considers Salter, Martin Wright, David that another flood in December 2008, although not so severe, Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Wright, Mr. Iain illustrated the threat of more floods into the homes of people in Seabeck, Alison Wyatt, Derek the town; and believes that urgent action must be taken, and Sharma, Mr. Virendra quickly, to prevent the town becoming flooded again. Shaw, Jonathan Tellers for the Noes: The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Sheerman, Mr. Barry Mr. John Heppell and urges the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Sheridan, Jim Mr. Bob Blizzard Affairs to do all in his power to persuade Cotswold District Council, Gloucester County Council, the Environment Agency, Question accordingly negatived. and Thames Water to fulfil their responsibilities to the town and people of Moreton-in-Marsh and to act swiftly to avoid further Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), flooding. That the proposed words be there added. And the Petitioners remain, etc. Question agreed to. [P000379] The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as Bridleways (Canvey Island) amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). 10.17 pm Resolved, Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Horse riders in Castle That this House notes that the Government has put in place comprehensive support to help households avoid repossession, Point and on Canvey Island are deeply disappointed by that 220,000 households benefited from Support for Mortgage the failure of councillors to help them maintain existing Interest last year, over 1,000 households have received free advice bridleways and get new ones for safe riding. Horse from their local authority each month since the launch of the riding is a traditional activity that is supported by local 765 Business without Debate 9 JUNE 2009 766 residents, but seems to be punished by councillors. Aung San Suu Kyi There are many problems. Riders suffer from obstructions put in their way by the council and from dangers on the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House roads. I urge councillors actively to support our local do now adjourn.—(Mr. Frank Roy.) horse riders. I thank and congratulate each and every petitioner. They are good people who just want us politicians to listen to them and to enable them to ride 10.19 pm their horses. Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): The petition states: May I say how pleased I am to have this opportunity to The Petition of Paula Holt and others, conclude our business this evening with a few remarks Declares that the horse riding community of Castle Point, and about the detention of Aung San Suu Kyi? She is rightly Canvey Island in particular, is desperate for safe places to ride in known and respected throughout the world for the the borough, notes that riding at Waterside Farm, the Northwick quiet calm and the dignity with which she faces intolerable Road fields and the sea wall between Haven Road and Northwick repression. She currently faces a process that, for the Road are now all closed to horse riders because of barriers put up purposes of this debate, we will call a trial, but which, it by the council to prevent motorbike riders, but which only actually stop horse riders; further notes that we need more bridleways is widely accepted, conforms to none of the recognised across the whole borough and that this activity provides exercise principles of natural justice that we would understand and much pleasure for all age groups and is traditional within the in this country. borough. I welcome the Minister of State, Foreign and The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Bury, urges the Government to encourage Essex County Council and Castle Point Borough Council to review bridleway provision in South (Mr. Lewis) to his new position. I welcome his the borough and to ensure that traditional bridleways are maintained, appointment; we are delighted to have him here. As the and new and safe bridleways are provided. secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on And the Petitioners remain, etc. democracy in Burma, may I say that we have always enjoyed a fruitful and close working relationship with [P000380] his predecessors in the Foreign Office and with Ministers in the Department for International Development? I am confident that that relationship will continue under this Minister, whom I congratulate on his appointment. I wish him every success. The charge facing Aung San Suu Kyi is that of violating of the conditions of her house arrest. If she is convicted—we might reasonably say “when she is convicted”, because the purpose of the trial is to obtain a further conviction—she stands to have a further five-year period of imprisonment imposed on her. The irony is that this imprisonment will be for the breach of a condition of her detention, which has already been declared illegal by the United Nations as a contravention of international law and of Burmese domestic law. This illegality heaped on illegality is a particular feature of Aung San Suu Kyi’s position, and of the loathsome regime by which she is being oppressed in Burma. Aung San Suu Kyi has been under house arrest on and off for 13 of the past 19 years. The process first started in 1989, when the martial law provisions of the time allowed for detention without charge or trial for a period of up to three years. It is a matter of public record that in the elections in 1990, the National League for Democracy, of which she is the leader, won some 82 per cent. of the available seats. That was a remarkable achievement, and an indication of the standing that she enjoys in her own country as well as in the wider international community. It is also a matter of record that the junta refused to recognise the results of the elections, and that at that point, it changed the rules to allow for her continued detention for up to five years. Aung San Suu Kyi was released from detention—at that point she was under house arrest—in 1995. She was placed under house arrest again, with additional conditions restricting her entitlement to travel, in 2000. I mention the restriction on travel because it is well known that as a consequence of those restrictions, she was unable to visit her dying husband in London for fear of not being allowed to return to Burma. 767 Aung San Suu Kyi9 JUNE 2009 Aung San Suu Kyi 768

Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): Is it minded to promote democracy movements—for reasons not an indication of the nature of the Burmese authorities that largely speak for themselves—but the opportunity that in the forthcoming trial of Aung San Suu Kyi on for multilateral action lies in efforts made to influence 12 June—which, as the hon. Gentleman has said, could China to bring a more benign influence to bear on lead to her imprisonment for five years—three out of Burma. four of her defence witnesses have been denied access to Let me return to the history of Aung San Suu Kyi’s the court? The Burmese Government are producing detention. She was released for a period, but subsequently 14 witnesses for the prosecution, yet she is to be allowed re-arrested in May 2003 in the aftermath of a horrific only one. Is it not even more shocking that members of attack on pro-democracy activists and herself in northern the pro-democracy 1988 movement who are in jail are Burma. Seventy people were killed and more than being denied adequate food? They are not allowed food 100 arrested. Aung San herself was held for a period of parcels, and those who have suffered severe medical some three months in what was effectively secret conditions, including heart attacks, are not allowed any imprisonment; at that stage, nobody really knew where medical supplies. Is that not an indication of the nature she was or what she was suffering. Her house arrest of the Burmese regime? then continued until 2007, at which point it expired. It was renewed for a further year until 2008, at which Mr. Carmichael: It is. It is also an indication of the point, with a still further extension having been allowed, exceptionally unfair, ill-conceived process in which Aung the UN intervened to clarify, if any clarification were San Suu Kyi finds herself. Speaking as one who previously needed, that the detention was a contravention of both practised as a court solicitor, I believe that it breaches international and domestic law. just about every norm of international law. My only It is interesting, although perhaps academic, to speculate quibble with the hon. Gentleman is that I was told that on what might have happened if last month Mr. John the number of prosecution witnesses being produced William Yettaw—a US national, I am told—had not was 16, compared with one defence witness, but the taken it on himself to swim through the lake surrounding numbers make no difference. What is most obnoxious is Aung San Suu Kyi’s house to break into the compound the fact that the person standing trial is not being and remain there, giving rise to the charge she currently allowed to present her case. faces, which is breach of house arrest. That incident shows the Alice through the Looking Glass world that Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman we are in when we deal with Burma. We have here one may be aware that—in 2003, I believe—I visited the of the very few examples of a victim of housebreaking Karen ethnic groups in the Burma jungle. Does he agree finding herself, rather than the perpetrator, to be the that while the Government of Thailand should be thanked victim, or subject, of criminal proceedings. for their tolerance of the refugee camps just over the Thai border, they nevertheless have a major part to play The hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow) in putting pressure on the Burmese junta to respect referred to health concerns. Aung San Suu Kyi is now human rights? being held in prison, as opposed to under house arrest, and those health concerns are real, substantial and Mr. Carmichael: Like the hon. Gentleman, I have a widely held. It is said that she suffers from low blood great deal of sympathy for the position in which the pressure and severe dehydration. I know that the British Thai Government find themselves. We occasionally hear embassy in Rangoon does what it can to stay in touch reports of some activities within the camps that are a and to make itself as fully aware as possible of the cause of concern—for example, the suggestion that circumstances in which she is being held, and I hope refugees are being pushed back across the Burmese that the Minister will be able to update us on what the border. The point was made in discussions with the Government in this country understand her present Under-Secretary of State for International Development medical condition to be. earlier today that the refugees in Thai camps are not I should also record the appreciation of many of us allowed to work, which is also a cause of concern. I of the efforts of Mr. Mark Canning, the United Kingdom have to say that it would be difficult for the UK Government ambassador to Burma. He recently described Aung San to argue that point too vociferously, given that asylum Suu Kyi’s trial as a “show trial”. He has been allowed seekers in this country are so rarely entitled to find paid one day’s access to the courtroom. employment. Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab): I am sure John Bercow (Buckingham) (Con): The institutionalised the hon. Gentleman is aware that it is not only Members inhumanity of the Burmese junta is reflected in the of Parliament here in Westminster who are gravely denial of Aung San Suu Kyi’s right even to use the concerned about the welfare of Aung San Suu Kyi. Last telephone, and the frequent denial of her right to medical night my local authority, Dundee city council, with treatment. Are not those further examples of why, in cross-party support, backed a campaign to free this the final analysis, multilateral action is vital if we are to very brave lady. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the give effect to the UN proclamation of the responsibility current trial is no more than an effort to ensure that she to protect? is incarcerated before the elections in Burma that are scheduled to take place next year? Mr. Carmichael: Yes, that is absolutely the case, and it is fair to say that no country on its own can possibly Mr. Carmichael: I do, and I think that that view is hope to effect a solution to the difficulties currently held fairly widely. The history of Aung San Suu Kyi’s facing the Burmese people. It has to be said, however, detention is a remarkable, albeit perverse, tribute to her that the one power in the region that might have particular strength, and the extent to which the junta truly fears sway and influence is China. Clearly, that country is not the influence that she could have if she were left at 769 Aung San Suu Kyi9 JUNE 2009 Aung San Suu Kyi 770 liberty. The irony is that while she may become physically as it offends my sensitivities as a lawyer, but such is the more frail, politically she becomes stronger with every nature of this exercise that we have to be realistic and day that she passes in detention. We should be interested acknowledge that she will be convicted: the prospect of to hear from the Minister whether he has any information acquittal is so negligible as not to be worthy of from Mark Canning on what he has been able to discern consideration. What measures do we anticipate taking about the conduct of the trial from the limited access in that event? It seems to me that there is an obvious that he and other external monitors have been given. response: to build this broad international coalition, I once heard Aung San Suu Kyi described as particularly for an international arms embargo. Everybody “an outstanding example of the power of the powerless”. seems to support such an embargo, but no matter how strongly they do that, it never seems to happen. Within That encapsulates rather nicely the point that I just made the European Union, will the UK press for a travel ban to the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. McGovern). to be extended to the prosecutors and judges who have The real tragedy is that while she herself is a remarkable been responsible for this sham of a trial? woman who is widely recognised for her achievements throughout the world, inasmuch as she is a political In essence, those are our concerns. I know that the prisoner she is by no means unique in Burma. It is Government remain committed to bringing democracy estimated that there are some 2,100 political prisoners to Burma. I hope that, whatever happens to Aung San there, and the figure may be even higher. Suu Kyi, she will not be left to suffer in vain, and that everything that happens to her will only serve to redouble It is clear that Aung San Suu Kyi’s detention is a our determination to bring democracy to that beautiful political detention. There is no question of any criminality. but benighted country. There is also no doubt that the wish to keep her in detention is clearly related to the elections due in 2010. If we imagine the position from the generals’ point of 10.37 pm view, we can well see why they would want to do that. It is fair to recognise the strong and effective efforts The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth made by the United Kingdom Government in recent Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I congratulate the hon. Member years. I was particularly impressed by the words of the for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) on securing Prime Minister in his contribution to the “64 words” this Adjournment debate on this incredibly important project. We were all invited to offer 64 words in anticipation issue, and on the responsible yet passionate way in of Aung San Suu Kyi’s 64th birthday next Friday. The which he made his argument from a very informed Prime Minister put it rather well when he wrote: perspective. I also thank him for his generous “The clamour for your release is growing across Europe, Asia, congratulations on my appointment to my new post; I and the entire world. We must do all we can to make this birthday regard it as a tremendous honour to be a Minister of the last you spend without your freedom.” State in the Foreign Office with responsibility for the President Obama perhaps understated the position when middle east, Burma and other similar issues. I am in day he said that Aung San Suu Kyi’s detention two of the job, so I hope Members will be tolerant as I respond to the best of my ability. May I also assure the “cast serious doubt on the Burmese regime’s willingness to be a hon. Gentleman that I intend to work very closely with responsible member of the international community”. his all-party group, and indeed with all all-party groups It is not often that we would accuse President Obama of who have an interest in my new portfolio of responsibilities? understatement, but on this occasion it appears that he did not indulge in any hyperbole. A number of Members are present who have consistently raised issues in relation to Burma over a long period, and I believe that the cumulative pressure from Members Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): My hon. Friend in all parts of the House does in the end make a mentioned the entire international community. While it difference in international opinion. There are doubts may be no surprise that Russia is no champion of about how much that impacts on the regime, but it is democracy and human rights, does he not agree that it important that the House continues to offer oxygen in is a great disappointment that a neighbour of Burma— terms of the political situation and political realities in India, the world’s largest democracy—has not only Burma. I therefore congratulate all Members who take failed to provide adequate support for the plight of an interest in these issues on continuing to bring them Aung San Suu Kyi, but has actually given comfort to to the Floor of the House. the Burmese regime? As Members are aware, in the early morning of Mr. Carmichael: Yes, I do. When speaking earlier 14 May Aung San Suu Kyi was arrested simply for not about the role of China in the region, I was remiss in reporting an intruder. Her trial on these absurd charges not referring to India, which could have done—and, began on 18 May. The hon. Gentleman gave a different indeed, can yet do—a great deal more. I think it is fair analogy, but a prisoner is being prosecuted apparently to say that the further away a country is from the because the prison guards were asleep on the job. Our region, the more diluted its influence. India is part of ambassador in Rangoon—I noted that the hon. Gentleman the Commonwealth, as we are, and I hope that the paid tribute to his leadership on these issues—has reported Minister will do all he can to maximise the benefits the following: from such links. “It’s difficult to see anything but a guilty verdict…these trials When the Minister replies, I hope we will hear a bit tend to be pre-scripted. All decisions of any significance in Burma are made by the ubiquitous ‘higher authority’. more about what the Government are doing to build the broad international coalition that we all think is necessary. He continued: I hesitate to use the phrase “when Aung San Suu Kyi is “The generals will want to make sure Suu Kyi is unable to play convicted” when we are still in the process of the trial, a role in the elections next year.” 771 Aung San Suu Kyi9 JUNE 2009 Aung San Suu Kyi 772

[Mr. Ivan Lewis] the UK supports the imposition of a universal arms ban against Burma, but we know that an arms embargo That seems pre-scripted and pre-destined, and the point requires a mandatory chapter 7 resolution. has been made by hon. Members. He continued: I am also aware that there are calls for Burma to be “So the betting is on a sentence that extends her house arrest referred to the International Criminal Court. Appalling well into 2010 or beyond”. and unforgivable crimes are undoubtedly being committed I have no information on the medical condition of in Burma as we speak, but that country is not party to Aung San Suu Kyi. I shall inquire into that and write to the Rome statute, and again a Security Council resolution the hon. Gentleman, and I shall try to find a way of would be required. We believe that it is incredibly important making other hon. Members aware of the current situation, that we focus on practical measures that will convince particularly in relation to her mental and physical health. the regime to choose the path of reform and national I am proud that the UK has led, in many ways, the reconciliation. international response to this outrage. We have spoken What we have achieved so far is two unprecedented to EU leaders and members of the UN Security Council. presidential statements, and we should regard that as Burma’s neighbours, including China, India, and positive. Two weeks ago, the Security Council expressed Association of Southeast Asian Nations countries, are its concern about the arrest and called for political in no doubt that they have a critical role to play and prisoners to be released and involved and engaged in need to use their influence—I reiterate that call in this the political process. As the hon. Gentleman said, we debate. I wish to pay tribute to the tremendous work know that President Obama and the Secretary of State done by my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member in the American Administration share our concern for for Harlow (Bill Rammell), when he held this portfolio. Burma, and recently US sanctions against the regime He spoke up at the meeting of 45 Asian and EU were renewed. Ministers in Hanoi only last month and he did not pull Although it is right that there be a focus on Aung San any punches. He said that the charges against Aung San Suu Kyi, the hon. Gentleman rightly made the point Suu Kyi were baseless, he called for her to be released, that she is one of more than 2,100 political prisoners in along with the other 2,100 political prisoners who are Burma. People have been imprisoned for up to 65 years detained in Burma—those are the ones we know of—and simply for asking for help for cyclone victims—an appalling he asserted that without her and other opposition leaders state of affairs. the 2010 elections would simply not have any credibility in international eyes. Another crucial requirement for national reconciliation has to be the involvement of all ethnic groups in Burma. In Hanoi and in Phnom Penh, my predecessor spoke The UK has condemned the continuing human rights directly to Burmese Ministers to urge them to take abuses that ethnic groups in Burma have suffered. Recently, positive steps to restore democracy. As hon. Members we received worrying reports about the situation in will be aware, and as the hon. Member for Orkney and Karen state, which the hon. Member for Castle Point Shetland mentioned, the UK is taking action within the (Bob Spink) referred to. Thousands of people have European Union. The Prime Minister intends to raise been forced to flee to Thailand because of an offensive the issue of Burma at the June European Council. On by the Burmese army, and tragically there have been a 19 May, the Foreign Secretary discussed further steps number of civilian casualties. Violence in Karen state that the EU should take in Brussels, and our officials can only prolong the suffering of the Karen people. continue to work with EU member states on tighter measures that target the regime. The Government believe The Rohingya people are abused in Burma, and that further measures, including financial sanctions, abused as refugees throughout the region. We have will increase pressure on the regime. drawn the attention of the international community, including the United Nations Human Rights Council, May I return to the comment that the hon. Member to the plight of minorities. The conflicts with the Karen for Orkney and Shetland made about Aung San Suu community and others are regrettable consequences of Kyi’s health? We believe that she is not in bad health, the regime’s attitude to the people of Burma. The full but she has severely limited access to medical staff and and equitable participation of Burma’s ethnic groups in we do not have any further information. She is, as ever, the political process has to be the key to a durable, a remarkable woman—we would all accept that—and sustainable solution to its problems. we believe that she is well enough to defend herself appropriately during the course of these proceedings, I refer to my previous responsibilities in saying that however unfair and unjust we know them to be. That is way in which we respond to the humanitarian crisis is the best information we can offer at the moment, but I equally important. We are the biggest donor of am certainly willing to provide any further information humanitarian aid to Burma. On top of our contribution that I can get to him. to cyclone relief of £45 million, we intend to spend another £25 million on aid to the people of Burma May I return to the UK’s contribution? We have this year. ensured that Burma is discussed at the United Nations, including in the Security Council. The UK will be There is a worldwide public campaign calling for the pushing for the firmest of responses, but it is only right release of Aung San Suu Kyi. The Prime Minister and on occasions such as this to be honest and frank about global leaders have added their weight to that of millions the boundaries of the effectiveness of our efforts. For who have spoken out about the plight of Burma. example, hon. Members will be aware that our efforts to secure a Security Council resolution in 2007 following Mr. Clifton-Brown: Will the Minister undertake on the saffron revolution were blocked, and the current behalf of the British Government to make renewed composition of the Security Council means that any representations to the Secretary-General of the United binding resolution against Burma is unlikely. Of course, Nations, Ban Ki-moon, that one of his utmost priorities 773 Aung San Suu Kyi9 JUNE 2009 Aung San Suu Kyi 774 should be to talk to the Burmese regime, and indeed the We are in an interesting time in our domestic political Chinese regime, to see how this tyranny can be ended? scene, and at a time like this one might think that the What we have heard in the House this evening is totally Prime Minister would have other things on his mind. unacceptable according to all international norms of However, hon. Members should know the level of his human behaviour. focus on and concern about this issue. He feels personally Mr. Lewis: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I hope engaged in what has happened to Aung San Suu Kyi. to meet the Secretary-General next week, although that He regards her as a fellow leader in the international is not confirmed, and of course this will be one of the community— major issues that I raise. We believe that it is very important that he use his good offices and reputation to intervene in a way that will change the dynamic of the country. His office and his role are absolutely crucial to 10.49 pm securing progress, so if I am able to meet him next week, House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order I intend to raise this specific matter. No. 9(7)).

161WH 9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 162WH

British taxpayers and British jobs. The same goes for Westminster Hall the ambulance service, which uses Renault or Mercedes vehicles, and the Highways Agency, which uses Mitsubishi Tuesday 9 June 2009 vehicles, which are not even built in Europe. There is something seriously wrong, is there not? Our procurement is a nonsense. On the one hand, we spend [CHRISTOPHER FRASER in the Chair] millions saying how good British industry is and, “Come and buy from us,” yet at the same time, our Government Manufacturing and Employment do not back our jobs. What is going wrong? Why spend millions promoting British manufacturing and then not Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting buy the products? The best advert for British products be now adjourned.—(Mr. Thomas McAvoy.) is to be seen using them. What car will the Minister ride home in tonight? Is it British built? Has it got a British 9.30 am component? I have not checked, but I suspect that it is a Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): It is good to see Prius or a Honda. that you are the Chairman of the day, Mr. Fraser, and may I add that I am disappointed that you will be The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation retiring? and Skills (Kevin Brennan): I know that it is unusual to We are pleased to be having this important debate. intervene at this point, but I can tell my hon. Friend Manufacturing is important to our economy and to the that it is a Vauxhall Vectra. UK, and Governments past and present have not given it their true support in the way that I would have liked. Mr. Hoyle: May I say congratulations and well done? There is support, but we must recognise the importance The Minister needs a preservation order on him! He of manufacturing. I should like to talk about what is must be listed! He is fairly unique in the House. At least being done in the automotive sector. We can see the there is a conscience at work. importance of the subject by the fact that so many The fact is that most of the Minister’s colleagues—I Members from all sides of the House have taken the hope that he will spread the word—use the Toyota trouble to turn up at 9.30 am—I say that for the benefit Prius. There is nothing wrong with the Prius, except that of those outside who perhaps do not realise that politicians it does not involve British jobs or components, and it is start that little bit earlier than they see on television. shipped all the way here, so it has a bigger carbon The debate is about what is happening and some of footprint than the Minister’s car, which comes from the big issues. Only yesterday, we had the devastating down the road. news of LDV vans when only a fortnight ago we thought I am not anti-Toyota, which has a plant in the UK—far that there was great hope for the company. There was from it—but I say this to Ministers: they should ride talk of a Malaysian company and the Government round in a British-built Aventis. Otherwise, let us have giving £5 million to tide it over, and we thought that the big conversation and ask Toyota, “Why aren’t you everything was in place to ensure that LDV manufacturing building hybrid cars in the UK?” Manufacturing in the in the UK could continue. Unfortunately, what we UK is very important to us. Australia, with 16 million thought was in place fell apart because of the banks, people, can say, “Build here and we’ll buy your vehicles; which did not put the money in. don’t build here and we won’t.” We should be following We have potentially lost 850 jobs in LDV,and probably that example. There are 60 million people in this country 4,000 from the supply chain for LDV. The situation has and we are one of the biggest car-owning countries in an impact not only on Birmingham, but on other parts the world. We should lean on Toyota—and Honda—and of the country in that supply chain. All the parts for say, “Do the right thing and build those cars here.” LDV vans go through Multipart, which is a huge logistics supply chain company based in Chorley. It is an excellent Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): The hon. company and it has the contract for LDV vans. There is Gentleman is a very distinguished member of the Select a knock-on effect for each constituency. Team Leyland Committee on Business and Enterprise, which I have International is also based in Chorley. It is the original the privilege to chair. The theme that he is pursuing is exporter and continues to export LDV vans—the company familiar—he has pursued it with Ministers on many gets LDV vans into places such as Nepal for the British occasions and may he continue to do so. Army. The effect is much greater than people see in the May I encourage the hon. Gentleman to go a bit headlines of a newspaper or regional programme. We deeper? Is he aware that the French and German must consider the depth of the impact that the LDV Governments have acted much more decisively than the vans situation will have on the economy and on people’s British Government to support the component supply livelihoods and jobs. industry in those markets? It is not just the Toyota and I would have thought that it is now time for the Nissan badges that matter; the stuff that goes into those Government to step in and rescue LDV vans. It seems cars also matters. Our component industry is generally pretty obscene to me that we can see the Mercedes-Benz strong, but at present it is threatened, and more decisive badge on police van after police van parked outside in action is being taken elsewhere to support component the square. That is a shame and a tragedy. Do we think industries. that we will see a British-built van in Germany? Not on your nelly! We will also not see them in Italy, France or Mr. Hoyle: How could I disagree with the Chairman Spain. Why do we see that here? What playing field do of our Committee? He is a great man, and I accept the those countries play on that we do not? We should be knowledge that he displays. Supporting and creating ensuring that the police want to buy British to support jobs in the supply chain is an important factor. However, 163WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 164WH

[Mr. Hoyle] Mr. Hoyle: I cannot disagree. There is a big question for all parties when people are driven to the fringes in we do not want to end up with a kit factory. We have to voting. I will not go into that political issue, but I agree go deeper. We should be drilling down to find out where that it involves jobs. We must tune in to people and we can create jobs. ensure that they have opportunities. They must not be frozen out, or frustration will result. I agree totally. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I am delighted that We have touched on the importance of LDV vans. It the hon. Gentleman has brought this subject to the is not too late. Yes, people are being made redundant as House. He has the vast majority of British people on his we speak, but there is a mothballed factory for which side, but they, like us, know that European competition there is still hope and opportunity, because it has invested rules are the problem. In procurement, the British heavily in electric vehicles. Some LDV vans are being Government must follow European rules, which they trialled by a leading supermarket. LDV is a world seem to do to the letter. Other countries in Europe do leader. If it were in France or Germany, would those not do so to quite the same extent. That is one of the countries allow it to close? No. They would put in problems. investment to drive it forward, because the future is in electric vehicles. We should be investing to save the company. That is where we should start. Mr. Hoyle: I cannot disagree. This country is unique in its gold-plating—it is absolutely gold-plated all the It is bad news. Household names such as Jaguar and way through. As I said, we are on a different playing Vauxhall, which I thank the Minister for mentioning, as field from the rest of Europe. Toyota vehicles are produced well as other, smaller manufacturing companies are in Japan, where European competition rules do not facing an uncertain future. There is good news out apply. Ministers ought to question their own judgment there—the market is experiencing a bit of an upturn—but and have the guts to stand up for British industry—the the credit crunch is beginning to ripple far beyond the Minister is rightly standing up for British industry and financial sector, where it started, and is having a devastating Ellesmere Port by using a Vauxhall. We want to see effect on manufacturing. It has exposed our overdependence more backbone and Ministers saying, “I don’t want a on financial services and highlighted the need to restructure car that’s been shipped round the world with a bigger our economy for the future. We need a vibrant carbon footprint. I want one that’s built in the UK. manufacturing base. It is essential for the prosperity of What’s good for France is good for the UK.” That is the the UK economy. We must not make the same mistakes kind of motivation that we want. that were made in the past. Manufacturing matters, not only to the 3 million people that it employs directly but to the further David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): 2.4 million employed indirectly in supply chains and I would be cautious about focusing entirely on Toyota. related services, as the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire It has a plant in south Derbyshire that employs many (Peter Luff) rightly said. We must look after the components people in my constituency, and it has a good reputation sector and protect it better. Manufacturing helps the as an employer. Surprisingly, the highest proportion of wider economy.Many of our towns, cities and communities manufacturing jobs as a proportion of the economy is rely on it as their main economic driver, and 50 per cent. not in the great west midlands or the north-west, but in of our exports come from the manufacturing sector. the east midlands, where 15 per cent. of our GDP is linked to manufacturing—Toyota is a part of that. These are difficult times for manufacturing. The pressure of operating in an ever-increasing global economy has been compounded by the global recession. Most notably, Mr. Hoyle: I do not disagree. My hon. Friend listens the automotive sector has been severely affected since carefully, so he will have heard that I am asking Toyota 1997. More than 1 million manufacturing jobs have to consider building in the UK as it did for Australia. I disappeared, and that trend is due to continue to the was also saying that Ministers should be buying the end of the year. Toyota Aventis, which is built in the east midlands. It is an excellent car—it is good on economy and good for Bob Spink: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will the environment. Buying cars that are built in the UK is agree that small and medium-sized enterprises are a surely better for the jobs that my hon. Friend wants to most important sector within manufacturing. They generate create and support in his constituency and the east sustainable jobs and new enterprises. The problem for midlands region. We should buy the cars that are built SMEs is that regulations affect them disproportionately, here rather than the cars that are built in Japan with no because they do not have the resources that big companies British parts and involving no British jobs, which are have to deal with them. I welcome the Government’s shipped around the world and which are not good for procurement plan—they are leading us out of recession— the environment. That is what I am saying. but it is not available in small bites that SMEs can access. The Government need to target their procurement David Taylor: The car components industry, which at SMEs as well as big companies. feeds Toyota and others, is a significant employer in North-West Leicestershire. About 20 per cent. of 18 to Mr. Hoyle: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. 24-year-olds were employed in manufacturing in 1997. Procurement contracts could be broken down into smaller That figure has more than halved over the past 10 years, pieces, which would allow SMEs to bid for them. That and a generation of young people who feel frozen out of is why we should have a procurement Minister, not just the job market are now showing an interest in the in defence but across all Departments, to ensure that politics of the far right. That is one of the lessons that everybody is aware of procurement contracts and that we learned last Thursday. people are helped to win them rather than being omitted 165WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 166WH because they are too small or do not have the capability. small buyers—the people who drive one, two, three or It is about encouragement, help and support. The four wagons. Those are the people who matter. Helping appointment of a procurement Minister could make a the manufacturers would help them, because new vehicles difference for UK jobs. would give them better efficiency, but it would also keep jobs and skills in place. That is what we need to support. Peter Luff: The hon. Gentleman is being generous in Will my hon. Friend the Minister consider it? We have giving way. I am sure that he would not want to leave done a good job on the car scrappage scheme, but we the House with the impression that manufacturing in need to do something for trucks that will bring benefit. this country is anything other than thriving in many I hope that he will take that on board. Leyland Trucks is respects. We have world-class technology in many sectors, important. including aerospace, automobiles, pharmaceuticals and During the economic downturn, we have witnessed a so on. We are the sixth-largest manufacturing nation in 60 per cent. fall in production, which highlights the the world. Yes, the sector faces problems at present, and huge impact of the financial crisis on our vehicle it is wonderful that he is highlighting them, but equally, manufacturing sector. We accept that we cannot compete this is a fantastic opportunity for what remains a successful on price and stoop to allowing lower-skilled jobs to manufacturing base in this country. move to low-paid economies, but it is worrying that highly skilled and well-paid jobs are now going abroad Mr. Hoyle: I do not disagree. As I go on, I will at a similar rate. We need urgently to reassess our policy mention some of the benefits. The hon. Gentleman is if we want manufacturing to survive. We need to end anticipating what I am going to say. I am talking about our passive manufacturing policy and the notion that the downside, but I also want to talk about the pluses. factory closures do not matter. They matter, particularly We should build on what we do best. to those who lose out and are forced to enter low-paid Recently, the Engineering Employers Federation raised work as a result of closures. its job loss forecast for 2009 to 188,000. If those jobs are We cannot afford to let manufacturing wither away. lost, skills will be gone for ever as workers struggle to Now more than ever, the Government must prioritise re-enter the labour market. We must face up to that support and invest in our manufacturing base to meet problem as well. today’s challenges and ensure that we are best placed to When we talk about the automotive industry, people grasp the opportunities of tomorrow. The Government often think exclusively of cars. However, I am keen to document, “Building Britain’s future: new industry, new highlight the needs of all vehicle manufacturers, particularly jobs”, offers a platform for doing so. It points to an Leyland Trucks, which employs many of my constituents. encouraging shift in industrial policy. It is a world leader and the last major truck manufacturer Coupled with that, Government initiatives such as in the UK. It meets the environmental targets that we the car scrappage scheme are having an impact and expect of major truck manufacturing. It makes the helping to kick-start demand in the automotive sector. trucks that we want on our roads. It needs support. The That is welcome, but it is aimed mainly at small cars. We company has invested heavily in meeting environmental need encouragement to buy family cars. Families need needs and reducing emissions from its trucks, but it is bigger cars. People cannot tow a caravan with a Nissan struggling. It is still building trucks, but it has had to Micra, or fit three kids, two adults and a dog inside. We reduce its work force significantly, and staff are working build good family cars, such as the Toyota Aventis. The on reduced hours. Now is the time for the Government powertrain of the Mondeo, including the engine and to step in. The Government can do a lot, perhaps the gearbox, comes from the UK. Incentives to sell through a short-time working subsidy to ensure that more of those vehicles would be a big bonus, because Leyland Trucks retains its skilled labour and can compete Ford employs thousands of people in the UK. when the market improves. We do not want the company The car scrappage scheme could be extended. We do to wither on the vine. not want to fall off a cliff at the end of the 12 months. It comes back around. Who has been given the contract We must manage the end of the scheme and give other for our new Army trucks? Has it been given to Leyland incentives. We must be imaginative in coming up with Trucks? No, it has gone to MAN, in Germany. A lot of ideas. I welcome the scrappage scheme, which is working promises were made. MAN said, “We own ERF in well and making things better. However, my challenge Cheshire now, so we’ll bid for the Army contract.” to the Minister is that we can do more. What has MAN done? It has closed ERF. I understand that ERF now has a little garage based in Stafford. That David Taylor: Does my hon. Friend share the caution is its footprint. The vehicles will be built in Germany of many environmental and economic campaigners over and shipped over. It is that sort of nonsense that we the scrappage scheme? Six of every seven cars brought must overcome. It is no different from Army uniforms in this country are imported, which will restrict the being made in China and shipped back here. That is not impact of the scheme on the UK economy. Could the about European competition; it is about bad judgment. scheme be given a new direction at the end of the period Leyland Trucks is important, and we could do much that the Chancellor has put in place? more for it. We have given tax advantages to the car industry—I will mention more about that—but we need Mr. Hoyle: That is a worry. However, other jobs are to do something for manufacturers of vans and larger created on the back of the scheme, for example in the vehicles to help them through the recession. Why are we dealer network and the supply chain for spares. The not giving tax breaks up front and incentives to sell problem is that the Mondeo is classed as an imported trucks? Fleet buyers will always be there. Royal Mail vehicle, even though the powertrain, and therefore most will be there for ever and a day. No one will ever make of the car, is produced through UK manufacturing. It is money on Royal Mail, but they can make money on easy to state a figure for vehicles that come from abroad, 167WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 168WH

[Mr. Hoyle] to support and protect jobs, and to incentivise investment where appropriate. The state should step in to provide but, as I have said, there is a difference between a the necessary support for manufacturing companies. It Mondeo and a Prius. The Mondeo’s powertrain comes is not acceptable to stand by and watch skilled jobs and from the UK, whereas the Prius contains nothing from companies such as LDV go to the wall. the UK. We must get that balance right. If there is a We must look at new ways of working that are used in way to support British car manufacturing, I am happy Europe and the United States. Many problems in the to look at it. However, we come back to the point about automotive industry are shared. In the global market, European rules. We can do more, but we should not we must explore and work together where possible, for forget that many cars from abroad have content from example to invest in the production of more environmentally the UK, and many do not. friendly vehicles, to which the Government are committed. The absence of a comprehensive cross-governmental It is right to have long-term policies on investing in manufacturing strategy puts at risk our ability to meet greener vehicles, but we must not miss out on the today’s demands and to enable future growth. We need short-term policies that are needed. a jobs summit that brings together the Government and I congratulate the Government on working with Jaguar all social partners to set out a strategy. A clear direction Land Rover. It is important that such major companies for UK manufacturing that centres on investment, continue and there can be no excuses if they do not. The infrastructure and the work force must be agreed. There Government were right to intervene to tackle the financial should be regional job summits where the Secretary of crisis and should not hesitate in acting to support other State brings regional manufacturers together and listens jobs. Such action benefits business, workers, the economy to what they say. Those manufacturers must work together and the taxpayer. to ensure that they have a future. They must state their The Government could adopt a number of measures needs and what they want to see from Government, to help manufacturing contend better with the downturn. rather than be told what is good for them, which we are More direct support is needed to protect jobs. One very good at. The challenge is to listen to them and to option is a time-limited wage subsidy targeted at keeping work together. It is important that there is a clear viable businesses open. Short-time working and temporary direction centred on investment. lay-offs are now a reality. In some cases, they are a The Government, business and trade unions must stepping-stone to redundancy. For example, workers at work together if manufacturing is to survive. The unions Leyland Trucks are being forced to accept short-time must play a role in the growth of this country, as they working because of the downturn in the orders for are the best lobbyers for procurement contracts. They vehicles. Each week, more businesses are forced to do led the lobbying on behalf of BAE Systems on the the same. Such companies and their workers deserve Typhoon, the joint strike fighter and submarines. They our support. do a great job of ensuring that UK jobs survive. We A time-limited wage subsidy scheme should be introduced want to see a new practice of working together and do with sufficient safeguards to ensure that only firms not want to return to the problems of the ’70s. New directly affected by the recession qualify and to avoid social partnerships are being built in which the unions dead weight. It could bring significant benefits such as work hand in hand with companies for the betterment employers avoiding immediate redundancies and retaining of UK manufacturing. essential staff and skills. If linked to training, it could Who would have thought that Lord Digby Jones be a long-term work force investment. Surely it makes would be seen hand in hand with Unite leaders, marching more sense to invest in people in the work force, rather for jobs? Who would have thought it? The bastion of than in the jobcentre. Rather than subsidising people self-enterprise—[Interruption.] I did say “bastion”—the to be unemployed, we should subsidise them to keep last bastion. Many may wish to think differently of their jobs. Digby, but I know that his parents were married. He has become a champion of British jobs and of working Bob Spink: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that with the trade unions. Nobody would have dreamt of to build for the future of the manufacturing sector, seeing a march for jobs in Birmingham with Digby and there must be more genuine, traditional, workplace Unite trade union leaders at the front. I welcome that apprenticeships? Will he congratulate the Government and look forward to his application card coming through. on developing more apprenticeships and press them to That demonstrates the change we have seen and suggests develop more traditional, work-based, manufacturing what will happen in future. apprenticeships? That is the future. A new approach to manufacturing is needed. We must not abandon the view that the market has the Mr. Hoyle: I am happy to join in that praise for the answers. It does not have all of them, but it has some. Government’s action on what I call traditional, real Although we do not like to use the word, we have seen apprenticeships. I cannot thank the Government enough. intervention in the banking and car industries. It does Apprenticeships are part of what we need for the future, not have to be a dirty word that we turn our noses up at. but are no good if we allow the companies to disappear. Intervention is important and the market matters—we We must ensure that the companies are there so that we must bring the two things together. If we do not, within can provide the long-term jobs that apprentices and the 20 years, countries like China and India will make country require. everything we use. Our European counterparts recognise The TUC estimates that at a cost of about £1.2 billion, that they cannot have a successful economy without a we could save 600,000 workers each year through a robust manufacturing base and have acted quickly to short-time working subsidy. We have found billions to defend it. The UK, too, must adopt a more active bail out the bankers, so we can do the same for hard- industrial policy and should not be afraid to intervene working people in manufacturing. The banks are now 169WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 170WH paying that money back, and we should reinvest it in have in aerospace in Lancashire. When we look at BAE manufacturing so that we benefit even more in the Systems and at what flies out of there, we see that those longer term. A short-time working subsidy would be a skills and the research and development that go into quick and effective way of targeting support at the that manufacturing base are second to none. The Americans struggling employers providing financial support to look at us with envy, and rightly so, as we are building employees across the UK. Europe has already recognised the best aircraft in the world. the benefits of such schemes, which have been introduced I would like all that skill, knowledge and know-how in Germany, France, Spain, the Netherlands and Italy. to be linked with technology transfer, as that is where Closer to home, the Welsh Assembly has introduced a we miss out. We invest in military aircraft that are the wage subsidy called ProAct, which took only two months best in the world, but we need a spin-off from that to become operational at the beginning of the year and investment to create jobs in the civil sector. People is now benefiting many businesses and workers across always ask, what good is the military? It is good when it Wales—we can learn something from a small country protects us, but I want to be able to say that it goes such as Wales. much further than that. I want to say, “Look at what The proposal to introduce a short-time working subsidy we’ve created by transfer to the automotive industry is supported by business leaders such as the Federation and other industries such as shipbuilding, with submarines.” of Small Businesses, and organisations such as Corus, There must be skills that we can transfer across to our JCB and many others. The trade unions also fully other UK manufacturing bases. We have put in the support it. As I have said, it is better to pay to keep research, development and investment, but we do not people in work than to pay them to attend a jobcentre. hear about technology transfer. When a space shuttle is What are we otherwise going to do with them? Will we put into space, we hear about the spin-offs and other train them to do the jobs for which they already have jobs being created through that investment. We need to the skills? That is what we seem to do. It makes sense to do the same and to recognise what we could gain from provide that support, because it helps people to keep such major investment. I repeat that we are still the their dignity and their ability to pay the mortgage and it world leader in pharmaceuticals. We need to go forward stops family break-ups. That alone would bring a major with that kind of blue chip company, and we need to benefit to the Government. It must be a priority to keep send the message that Britain is the best place to invest viable businesses open and to protect jobs if we are to and do business. come out of the recession in a stronger position. If we fail to do so, there is a danger that we could lose many Warm words from the Government in support of much-needed skills. manufacturing are commendable, but they need to be matched by direct action. The Government have rightly I want to discuss workers’ rights. The Government embarked on record investment in our schools, hospitals have rightly made progress on introducing family-friendly and transport infrastructure, but that investment must policies, but those policies benefit people only if they be matched by a policy that prioritises British have jobs, so we need to make those things work together. manufacturing, thus protecting British jobs. We invest We have not been so bold in other areas, and the UK in our railways, but we have trains that are built in has a poor record, in comparison with other European Japan and other rolling stock that is built in Spain. Why countries, on protecting workers who face redundancy. is that continuing? Does the Minister think that Japan It is worrying that General Motors Europe has admitted or Spain would let us export trains to them? The answer that it is easier to sack British workers because of the is no, they would not. When we are making all that flexible labour market. Increasingly, when multinationals investment with taxpayers’ money, we must consider consider downsizing and shedding jobs, they see British how to use it to help British jobs. We have missed a trick workers as the easy option. We need to reconsider these which we must not miss in the future. The Government matters, as it is scandalous that UK workers are among spend more than £120 billion a year on buying the cheapest to sack. We need a level playing field, and I manufactured goods, so the introduction of such measures urge the Government to act to give British workers the would make a real difference to our manufacturing same protection as their European counterparts. This is sector. For a start, why should not all the vehicles used not about favours; it is about fairness. by the Government and the public sector be made in Linked to all that, we need further incentives to Britain? What about Building Schools for the Future support companies that invest in our manufacturing and Sure Start children’s centres? Why should the desks sector. We could do that by giving better tax incentives and chairs that our children use in the classroom not be or by demanding the repayment of grants, so that we made in Britain? I could go on and on about how much would help them on one hand, but they would have to more we could do. As I have said, British uniforms pay back with penalties. We would have to include could be made in Chorley. Public infrastructure projects penalties because some people want to come in, make a such as Crossrail and the 2012 Olympics should always quick buck and disappear. Companies must decide prioritise in favour of British companies and British which is the best option for them: is it to repay the jobs, and should make sure that the steelwork, materials advantage they have had in order to move quickly and everything else are from the UK. somewhere offshore? We also need to invest more in skills and training if We need to send the message that Britain is the best we are reinvigorate the manufacturing sector. The Leitch place to invest, and we can do that. We have the report highlighted the importance of investing in skills best skills and the best work force, and we make the and workers. The planned investment initiatives will go best products in the world. We are world leaders in only so far, and we need to go further if we wish to areas such as pharmaceuticals and aerospace, and we remain at the cutting edge of manufacturing. We need have a great skills base in the north-west, particularly in to address this issue urgently, as it cannot be right that Lancashire. There are no better skills than those we companies such as Rolls Royce have to recruit from 171WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 172WH

[Mr. Hoyle] It is important to have initiatives to deal with these issues. Such initiatives should be about diversifying and abroad to fill the skills gap. We ought to recognise that creating new jobs. That is what we are good at in the problem immediately and put it right. I welcome the UK. Providing a bit of help and support and bringing increasing number of apprenticeships and I commend people together can make a real difference. I am pleased the work of companies such as BAE Systems, which has that we have been allowed to have today’s debate. It will invested significant resources in such apprenticeship help to inform policy development and implementation, schemes and in the company’s future. One has only to and the vision set out in the “New Industry, New Jobs” look at its graduate and apprenticeship scheme in Barrow, document. That document is important and manufacturing which has benefited more than 600 people. About 13 per is important. Thank you, Mr. Fraser, for your patience. cent. of its Submarine Solutions work force has come I also thank other hon. Members for turning up. through that scheme, proving that investment quickly brings rewards. Several hon. Members rose—

Train to Gain is also making a difference, but we Christopher Fraser (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members must go further. We need to be bold and radical in that I intend to commence the wind-ups at 10.30 am offering training and development opportunities for and that there are at least two Members who would like those who are already in work to upskill and give them to speak. the diversity to meet the change in demand for skills. However, the Government cannot do that alone. Employers 10.10 am need to work together on that, but there should be greater incentives, particularly for small and medium-sized Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I note the companies to invest in their work forces. desire of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) to speak and congratulate my We will face challenges in future, but we must not shy hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle), who away from them. Our manufacturing is something that I put the case admirably. I am delighted to speak under can be proud of, that Britain should be proud of, and your chairmanship, Mr. Fraser. that the rest of the world is very envious of. We are one I shall concentrate on the key issue of the wage of the leading exporters of high-technology products, contribution, subsidy or whatever we want to call it. It and our productivity has risen by half since 1997, might surprise people to know that Stroud is a thereby outpacing Germany and France. The key test is manufacturing centre. Many people think that it is an whether we make the necessary investment to build on area of agriculture, green hills and tourism. In fact, a those achievements or whether we stand by and let our disproportionate number of people—more than the manufacturing industry deteriorate further. We cannot national average and certainly the highest number in afford to do that. We have been through the painful Gloucestershire—work in manufacturing, particularly measures and difficulties of the 1980s, and I know the engineering. impact that they had in Lancashire at that time and the problems that we faced. We have come through all that, Our firms are mainly automotive or in the automotive and we must never return to it by doing nothing. This is chain—although some are aerospace—and they are not a political point: doing nothing would have taken us experiencing some difficulties at the moment. The aerospace from recession into a depression, and that is why we sector has, of course, lagged behind other sectors in were right to invest. We must not shy away from investment, terms of the recession, but, nevertheless, it faces some although there will be critics. Fruit is now beginning to difficulties. I have been to all my major firms—Renishaws, appear on the tree and it will not be long before we can Delphi, SKF, Lister-Petters and a smaller company pick it, so it benefits the Government. We must acknowledge called Deutz. In addition, I am in Cologne next week to when they get things right, and we should not be try to fight to retain 30 jobs, which I think we can do if ashamed of what we have done. I repeat that doing the parent company allows its subsidiary in Dursley to nothing is not the way forward, and that we would have go it alone and work with Lister-Petters, which was the been in a depression if we had done nothing. original company. That would provide an answer, and it is my duty to work towards such a solution. It is not all The weakness of the economy is dependent on the bad news: an ABB plant in my constituency is doing financial sector, as I said earlier. With a strong very well, because it is based in the water and power manufacturing base, we can secure continued economic industries. The way in which ABB locks into those growth and stability and help to support workers and industries means that it is doing relatively well. return our economy to a position of even greater strength. On wage subsidy and wage contribution, I must I hope that we can expand on the measures that we have compliment the Government. Two of the firms that I taken, and that they can grow. However, it is not all have mentioned—Delphi and Renishaws—have laid off doom and gloom—there is good news. I have a company a large number of people. For Renishaws, that is unheralded. called Porter Lancastrian in my area. People might ask That company is a state-of-the-art probe manufacturer who they are: they produce bar products, but the brewing under the chairmanship of Sir David McMurtry, who is industry is suffering and pub closures are coming. However, one of the stars of Britain and British industry. However, Porter Lancastrian diversified, and now produces between December and January, Renishaws hit a wall waterproof television screens for the fanciest hotels because of what happened to demand for machine around the world, so that when people sit in the bath or tools, of which probes are a key element. As well as the have a shower, they can watch television. Waterproof lay-offs, people have “volunteered” to go on short-time televisions are going a bomb and they came out of working to keep their jobs. However, accordingly, they Chorley. That is fantastic news—I do not think that will take the pain of the loss of money and the sacrifice MPs have claimed them on their expenses yet. that comes with that. 173WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 174WH

I went to see both Dephi and Renishaws early in the of £1.2 billion has been bandied around, which is the new year when they hit these problems. We agreed figure in the FSB and TUC paper—but it is not an collectively that when people are on short-time working, absolute cost because people would go on to jobseeker’s their time can be used meaningfully to boost their skill allowance and draw down all sorts of other benefits. level and that we should ensure that people can do the Therefore, I would like the Government to cost such training that they would love to do but that they are schemes. I know that I am arguing with my hon. Friend normally too busy to contemplate. I pay due regard to a on this, but I would, at least initially, limit such schemes number of Government agencies that have been key to to the automotive industry, and then see how long the those discussions, such as the South West of England recession lasts. This is a short-term measure. We are not Development Agency, the Learning and Skills Council, talking about it being indefinite because, of course, we Jobcentre Plus, Gloucestershire First—our local hope that the recession will not be indefinite. It is a development agency—and Gloucestershire Training Group short-term measure, but, nevertheless, we need to take it. Limited, which will undertake the training provision. I have some specific questions for my hon. Friend the As my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley has said, Minister. I am eternally grateful for the Delphi-Renishaws the trade union, Unite, has also been crucial in encouraging package being put together, but the ghost in the room—if its members to go along with the training. I can put it that way—that has not been dealt with is the Using Train to Gain, we have put training packages need for a wage contribution. The Delphi-Renishaws in place so that slack time can be taken up and that scheme is taking place on a per person basis, and one people can be usefully employed. There are two reasons issue is the upfront costs of the awarding body. Those why we have done that. First, as I have said, it is costs should be removed or at least scaled down, because important for people to build up their skill level. Secondly, there will potentially be—we would like to see this—at when we get out of recession, we have to be absolutely least 300, 400 or perhaps even more workers undertaking tooled-up, skilled-up and personed-up, because otherwise the upskilling to get national vocational qualification our competitors in Europe will take the work. The two levels that they have not previously managed to achieve. firms that I am talking about are Renishaws and Delphi. Secondly, there is the question of what happens Delphi has a huge order book going forward, but, of when someone drops out of the scheme. At present, the course, no one is taking up those orders at the moment. full cost is borne by the company. As that is something Renishaws is much more of a just-in-time business, but, that companies in difficulty always worry about, we again, it will be back because it is the world’s leading hope that there will be some flexibility so that the manufacturer of highly skilled probes. We have a future; company does not have to bear the full cost of people those firms have a future; however, we have got to get to leaving, for whatever reason, whether it is another job, that future. family illness or so on. As my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley has said, Thirdly, apprentices are key to the scheme. Both I commend the paper produced jointly by the Federation companies have committed themselves to taking apprentices of Small Businesses and the TUC. I shall not discuss this year and next year, because they feel that that is the that document in detail, because I know that my hon. future. At present, the use of European social funding Friend the Member for Manchester, Central wants to for those under 18 is not allowed, so we wish to have speak. However, it is a very pertinent paper, which also flexibility to include under-18s. has the benefit of being short, and it makes the point Finally, setting up such schemes is expensive; it requires that such training schemes mean that firms are keeping a big budget. We want some clarity that they can people on their books. Of course, firms have the means continue in the future, because, whatever we do to begin to do so, because employment schemes involve a levy on with, we will want to roll it out. I would like other firms companies, so that money is available to allow companies to join in and follow that model, which is exciting, to keep people on the books while the state pays them in innovative and absolutely right. Those are my specific times of downturn. I am not suggesting that we go questions. along all the way with that, because it is rather quaint to pay people to lie on the beach for three months at a In conclusion, I think that what we are trying to do in time. I would much rather people were working and my constituency is absolutely right, but we do not want being trained when they are not working, so that they to be hung up on or hamstrung by the question of are appropriately skilled for when they come back. whether a wage contribution will be paid. There is a matter of justice: if the state is asking people to use As my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley has said, their time and money to undertake such a scheme, the if we consider Wales, such schemes are not unique in least it can do is make a contribution as they do so. We our country. The Minister might have an interesting will get a benefit, as our firms will be even more point of view on this because, under the ProAct strategy, competitive when they come out of the recession. such schemes are taking place in Wales, where people I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister hears my are being paid wage contributions to undertake training. earnest pleas. I am grateful to the Government for Wales has led the way on that and the rest of the United putting enormous resources into supporting employment. Kingdom must follow. I know that the scheme is a pioneer project, a pilot—it Of course, smaller companies can already pay a is pushing forward the boundaries—but, as I have said, training subsidy under Train to Gain. Again, that is the problem is not new. If we can crack this, other parts nothing new. During the 1970s, to which people sometimes of the country and other companies can learn from us, hark back, there was a temporary employment subsidy. but we need clarity about whether a wage contribution Such schemes are nothing new; we have done it before for the automotive industry is a possibility, albeit for a and we must do it again. Why? Well, the alternative is to short period of time, because it would help everybody. lay people off, which will cost. I know that there is a We will push on with our plans regardless, but we really cost associated with such training schemes—the figure need that back-up. 175WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 176WH

10.22 am I support my hon. Friends the Members for Chorley and for Stroud (Mr. Drew) in their plea for a proper Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): In the little look at a judicious use of employment subsidies in parts time that is available, I wish to make several brief of industry. The Government rightly recognised that points. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for the importance of the banking system was not in whether Chorley (Mr. Hoyle), who, as ever, has picked up issues individual banks succeeded or otherwise but in the fact that really matter to our constituents. that if the system had collapsed, knock-on effects would My hon. Friend probably agrees that we need to draw have spread throughout the whole of the UK’s services a careful distinction between saying that the Government and manufacturing economy. What the Government ought to be active in their policy on employment and did was high risk but absolutely right, which is now encouraging the industrial and manufacturing base, being proven. which can involve the proper use of Government The argument for support for LDV, for example, is procurement to ensure that British firms are advantaged, similar. The issue concerns not only LDV, but the and saying that we ought to move to some kind of supply chain that it is involved in and the importance of economic protectionism. I am not a natural free-marketer, maintaining that whole infrastructure within our industry. but, nevertheless, we are a trading economy. My hon. We need to take a strategic view in respect of critical Friend gave examples of British companies that successfully manufacturing firms and ensure that we offer support manufacture all over the world—those companies do at this particularly difficult time. Conditions are likely not necessarily assemble cars in the end, but they to be difficult for manufacturing for some time to come, manufacture the parts that go into them. We cannot so I support the plea made by those who have already take part in a process that involves cutting off our nose spoken. to spite our face, which would happen if we got the balance wrong. There is nothing inconsistent about The future will not be with the large manufacturers of adopting the kind of policies that are adopted by some the past but with small and medium-sized enterprises— of our European neighbours to support home industries. those little firms that are highly innovative but often feel We do not have to cross the boundary into the wrong that they are not supported. I wish to make several kind of protectionism. points about them. First, while I agree with the arguments about traditional apprenticeships, we have to understand the position of the traditional apprentice in the modern Mr. Hoyle: I totally agree. This is about using the world. A small firm on its own cannot devise a proper same rules as our European counterparts. In the case of apprenticeship structure. There has to be a well-defined Japan, does my hon. Friend think that a Japanese structure and access to further education. As I have said Minister would ride around in a British-built car? The to the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk), answer is no, because the Japanese Government have a further education is fundamental, and any attack on it policy that ensures that that does not happen. The rules would be massively damaging to our manufacturing should be the same for all of us. base. There has to be proper partnership between our education institutions, if we are to offer upskilling to Tony Lloyd: We all agree with that. We want the rules the people who work in our economy. to be used judiciously and carefully to the advantage of We should bear in mind that this is not just about our employment and manufacturing base. apprenticeships but about the reskilling of those who The Government must look at the role of Government are in work and who already have good skills. My hon. procurement. I do not say that unkindly, but procurement Friend the Member for Stroud discussed labour subsidy. over the years by all Governments has perhaps not The reality is that people with skills who drift out of shown Britain at its best. The civil service has not jobs usually do not come back, and we could lose that always known best how to work in partnership with skills base in the future. manufacturing. That might seem like a plea for My final point is about the banking system. Historically, manufacturers. It is sometimes said that we have feather- our banking system has seen itself as a great success, bedded manufacturers in the past. We have allowed but it has always failed this country in the particular poor management to get away with an approach that area of early innovators—those who do high-technology, allows them to become lazy and not as cutting edge as quality research and who want to move into production. they ought to be. The Government ought to be using We are spectacularly bad in dealing with that gap, and their purchasing power to promote the dynamic cutting many highly qualified, highly competent people leave edge. They should ensure that those who provide goods these shores, often for America and the rest of Europe, and services to them are at the forefront of global to produce their products, because our banking system manufacturing. fails to take a risk at that risky stage of investment, I give the example—it is an important one—of BAE which, nevertheless, is fundamental if we are to see a Systems. There is no doubt that in the past it got away transition from idea to manufacture. with ridiculous prices, ridiculously slow delivery times A firm in my constituency, Liberalto Engines, is and so on. The overly cosy relationship with previous currently suffering from that gap. Everyone says that its Governments was not in the interests of BAE Systems idea is great and that it will have all the backing that it or our employment and manufacturing base. Such things needs, if it can get its idea into production. The idea is are now changing. There is a much tougher view in the good, and the company knows that the product will Ministry of Defence and the Department for Business, work, but moving into prototype and demonstrating Enterprise and Regulatory Reform about the procurement production capacity is, of course, risky. The company process, but we need to refine it to ensure that there is may fail, but the whole point of the banking system is value for money and that the Government play a part in to take risks and get a price for those risks. At the driving an industrial policy that leads to success. moment, however, the banking system is not doing that. 177WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 178WH

That is one thing that the Government could do to of electricity consistently out of a great national resource. ensure that we have a future in respect of the small, We need that kind of technology transfer, and we highly innovative, advanced technologies that we need. need more innovation and research and development We have some world-beating industries in this country. in that area. I visited a firm in my constituency last week called SSR. Manufacturing has been in a fairly steady state of It is a training company that works with the media decline for a great number of years. I agree with the industries, which have produced bands such as the hon. Gentleman that Governments of both parties have Happy Mondays, New Order and all the other great not given it the attention that it deserves. It has dropped Manchester bands of the past. It trains people and from 23.3 per cent. of gross value added within the gives them the skills of the future. There is a blurring of economy in 1997 to 12.6 per cent. in 2007. This is partly the distinction between services and manufacturing in due to the rapid growth of other parts of the economy, that area, but those are the industries of the future. particularly the service sector. In real terms, manufacturing Those industries are massively hi-tech and massively over that same decade has grown from £150.2 billion to important for our future, and they are there now. They £157.7 billion. The recession has clearly hit manufacturing are successful and they will weather this economic output severely: in quarter 1 of 2009, it was down by storm and provide us with high-quality employment for some 13.1 per cent. over the year. That has obviously the future. The future is good, but it needs a little bit of had a devastating impact on employment. The trend in assistance from the Government now. jobs in manufacturing has clearly been declining. In 1998, the figure was more than 4 million, but last year it was around 2.6 million, so obviously it has reduced. But 10.30 am that masks part of the good news, which is that industry John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) has been increasing productivity. The productivity of (LD): May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your UK industry has been one part of the success story. chairmanship, Mr. Fraser? May I also congratulate the Manufacturing industry is having a torrid time at the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) on securing this moment. I want to look briefly at the current causes of debate and on the excellent way in which he set out the that, which are pretty obvious. At the back of it all is issues, which I will come to in a moment? I also congratulate the credit crunch, which has caused the recession. On the hon. Members for Stroud (Mr. Drew) and for the banks—bank lending and regulation—it is clear Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) on their contributions. that our banking system was insufficiently regulated, I shall pick up on a couple of points made by the particularly with regard to the separation between retail hon. Member for Manchester, Central. First, he made a and investment banking. The result of that was a risk in good point about Government procurement, which is the system that was simply unpriced. The banking crisis important. Of course, the Office of Government Commerce has thrown up a deeper-seated problem. With the few exists precisely to have an overview of procurement friends that I have left in the City, I have to be careful within Government. At the moment, the OGC is largely exactly what I say about this, but it seems that we have a focused on short-term economic gain in the procurement structural and cultural problem, which is that the City process, but it is wholly right and reasonable that it has been seen as the place to go to make money. The should also have a duty to consider its impact in the way that the City has operated, with ever more complex wider British economy and, as far as it is reasonable, to financial products chasing each other round and being be helpful to our regions in the way in which it goes traded almost for the sake of being traded, means that about its business. our financial services industry has been inefficient in its The hon. Gentleman also mentioned further education primary task of providing capital for industry. and, in doing so, put his finger on something important, There is an opportunity in this current crisis to reshape namely the way in which further education supplies the way in which our financial services industry serves potential skills to industry, particularly SMEs. Coming, industry generally. Rather than its making complex as I do, from a background in the hotel and catering trades in complex products that turn out to be understood industry, one of the biggest difficulties faced by employers by nobody and of value to very few, we need to get back over many years has been finding short courses that are to the simple task of providing capital for industry to relevant for their staff, rather than those designed by the invest for the future. The City needs to go back to being lecturers, with all good intent, that do not deliver the the servant of commerce and stop trying to be the skills that are wanted in the industry. It is important for master of speculation. The other effect is that that people to get skills from further education establishments industry has taken our best brains. Many of our best that are fit for purpose in SMEs. human resources have gone into financial services, rather The hon. Member for Chorley underlined the importance than into industry. That culture carries across into the of manufacturing. Although I will mention some of the spirit of creating entrepreneurs. Indeed, when I said bad things, I want to start by underlining, as he did, its that I was going into the hotel industry, I saw a brief importance to the economy and the success that it has flash of pained expression in my mother’s face because I enjoyed. The hon. Gentleman talked about the banks, had not chosen to go to university or take up a which I will mention, too, because they are an important profession—although she rapidly reversed her view after part of the mix, and about the success of the aerospace I was successful. There is a view in Britain that it is industry. I am sure that one of the firms at the back of better to go to university or a profession rather than his mind is Rolls-Royce. It is fascinating that Rolls-Royce, into engineering or manufacturing, or to be an entrepreneur. in my part of the world, is actively looking at marine We really need to tackle that as well. renewable technology in Pentland firth. We have a real We need to develop skills, but, as I have said, skills prospect, within a short time, of a number of companies must to be appropriate and further and higher using Rolls-Royce-manufactured kit to produce gigawatts education must reflect the needs of industry. We also 179WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 180WH

[John Thurso] cent. of manufacturing businesses have closed. I hear from business and industry about a continuing and need management skills. I recently chaired a symposium rising sense of frustration at the Government’s policies of the banks in my part of the world to try to connect as key investments go elsewhere. For example, last year small companies with their bankers and deal with some Rolls-Royce chose to locate a new testing facility in of the problems. The interesting thing that the bankers Germany, not in Derby. It told me that that was largely said was, “For goodness’ sake, please can we have because of its frustration at the Government’s lack of real-time, proper management information?”The number support. One of its directors said: of SMEs that cannot produce such information is “The Germans value manufacturing. There is better productivity extraordinary. and they have a better education system. Government” We need to focus on research and development and here investment and we must get across those good ideas that we have produced. We need a method by which we “has chosen not to be competitive. Britain has caused this industry to export its capabilities” can invest in entrepreneurs. In my part of the world, small bits of money are invested directly in small Despite talk from Ministers, it is clear that industry is companies—not granted—by the North Highland unimpressed by the Government’s inaction. Regeneration Fund, which is helping to take small It has been clear since the fall of Lehman Brothers entrepreneurs to the next step. The hon. Member for last September and the collapse of world markets last Manchester, Central put his finger on a point that we autumn that urgent action has been needed, particularly need to address. in introducing working capital into businesses, so last Looking to the future, I believe that there is a real November my party—the Conservatives—set out a plan opportunity. The recession has been devastating, and of for a single, national loan guarantee scheme worth that there is no doubt. Unemployment is up, and many £50 billion for all viable businesses, whatever their size companies are barely holding on. I shall not refer to and sector. It was easy to access, clear, and simple to green shoots, but I hope that we are seeing the bottom. understand, and it would underpin conventional bank Our job must be to create out of that adversity the lending. That is also why we are committed to cutting opportunity to structure the economy for the future. the main corporation tax rate from 28p to 25p by simplifying the tax system. We want to reverse the 10.40 am Chancellor’s policy of raising the small company Mr. Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): I corporation tax rate from 20p to 22p. In that way, we welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Fraser. This is the first can directly help manufacturers, large and small, to occasion on which you have chaired a debate in which I invest with confidence for the future. As several hon. have participated, and it is good to see you in your Members said, we also need to consider skills in the place. sector. We are committed to cutting payroll costs for the smallest employers for at least six months. That is I welcome the Minister to his place on this first the sort of practical action that industry wants, and it occasion in his new role. He is the seventh or eighth is what my party intends to provide. Minister whom I have shadowed in the past few years. It is good to see him in his place, and I hope that he will All of us in politics must be clear about how last a little longer than some of his predecessors. manufacturing is changing, as the hon. Member for The hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) has a long Manchester, Central pointed out. First, we must recognise and distinguished track record in raising important how globalisation has led to international fragmentation issues concerning manufacturing. He speaks with great of production. The production of component and passion and verve, and rightly so. He raised a matter parts is spread increasingly not throughout countries, that other hon. Members also raised—the role of but throughout continents. That creates opportunities procurement. The debate has been useful and timely, and threats. On one hand, global sourcing gives our and I commend all hon. Members who have contributed manufacturers the chance to cut costs and to be competitive. to it, including the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew), On the other, British firms have no choice but to be my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire globally competitive in their specialisation simply to (Peter Luff) and the hon. Member for Manchester, survive. Central (Tony Lloyd), who was right to consider the The Government can help small manufacturers in the way in which procurement can be used without going challenge of accessing global value chains—we debated down the path of protectionism. I share that sentiment. that earlier—especially in emerging high-growth markets. As all the contributors to the debate said, manufacturing To be fair, they recognise that need, particularly in areas matters. It represents 13 per cent. of our gross domestic such as India and China, but it is not clear whether their product, and generates more than half of our exports. policies are working. Perhaps the Minister will tell us It helps us to pay our way around the world. As my hon. what progress is being made to help small manufacturers Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire said, last in emerging markets. year we were still the sixth-largest manufacturer in the The second challenge for public policy is the increasing world. We can and should take pride in the quality and importance of intangible assets, such as design, branding strengths of the businesses and the work force in this and software, and it is important to consider carefully country. We should not be unduly negative, cautious, how they can be encouraged. It may seem counter-intuitive careful and aware of the threats and problems, and we that such intangibles should matter to manufacturers, should not write manufacturing off. but the difference between a key manufacturer and its Clearly, the sector has had problems. One million competitor often lies in its know-how and creativity. jobs have been lost during the past dozen years or so, Fortunately, we have great strengths in design, whether even before the current recession. Since 1997, 10 per in computer games or luxury car brands. We should 181WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 182WH have confidence in our belief that we can build on 10.50 am those strengths. A crucial issue—it would be helpful if the Minister responded to this—is the Government’s The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation progress in protecting our intellectual property. Leading and Skills (Kevin Brennan): It is a pleasure to serve for manufacturers cite intellectual property’s critical role the first time under your chairmanship, Mr. Fraser; I and their ability to maintain their position. Perhaps the welcome you to that role. I thank the hon. Member for Minister will tell us what the Government have done Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) for his generosity in about that during the past six months. wishing me a long period in post. I am not sure that that is officially his party’s policy, but I thank him in Perhaps a more pressing question that many any case. manufacturers raise with me is the growing gap between I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley schemes that the Government have announced and the (Mr. Hoyle) on securing this timely and important money that businesses have received. There seems to be debate on manufacturing and employment. In the very a gulf between Ministers’ rhetoric and the reality in the short time that I have been in post, I have already business world. Instead of our plan for a single loan learned that he is very active in this field. He raised a guarantee scheme, Ministers have launched a plethora number of issues, which I shall come to in my remarks, of schemes, but have failed to make them work. We including wage subsidies and whether it is too easy to have the working capital scheme, the enterprise finance get rid of workers in the United Kingdom. guarantee scheme, the capital for enterprise fund, the transition loan fund, the European Investment Bank’s I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for supported loan scheme for growing firms, the EIB-backed Stroud (Mr. Drew) on his contribution. He gave examples automotive industry loan scheme, and the £1 billion of successful manufacturers in his constituency, including non-EIB-backed automotive loan scheme. All have different Renishaw and Delphi, and talked, importantly, about rules and criteria. They have different forms and require the help that Train to Gain has been able to offer those different business data. The result is confusion for businesses, companies during the current economic downturn. He and failure to deliver in Whitehall. asked a series of specific questions. I shall have to write to him about those; I have put that on the record to The capital for enterprise fund, for example, is worth ensure that it happens. £75 million for expanding firms. It was launched in November, and we were told that it would invest from I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for January, but in June reports from the Government Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd), who made the important suggested that nothing had been invested. Perhaps the points that his city would not exist as we know it if it Minister will confirm whether any business has received had not been for free trade, and that in supporting money and, if not, why not. British manufacturing we need to ensure that we note the importance of international trade. He made very The automotive assistance programme comprises two good points about procurement and about further education elements: a £1.3 billion loan guarantee from the European and apprenticeships. Investment Bank, and a £1 billion additional loan guarantee to help the car industry to develop low-carbon technologies. This has been an important and interesting debate. The programme was announced in January, when the The Government are deeply conscious of the importance French and German Governments had already delivered of the manufacturing sector to all our constituencies money to their car makers. Since then, Ministers have and to the country as a whole. After all, it is what dithered and delayed in working out schemes and catapulted this country on to the world stage in the first negotiating with companies. In February, The Birmingham place. Long before globalisation was a term in common Post, frustrated by the lack of progress, wrote an open usage, Britain was regarded as the workshop of the and critical letter to the noble Lord Mandelson asking world, exporting more than half its iron, coal and when Ministers would act. February went, and March cotton cloth. The constituency of my hon. Friend the came and went, but in April Ministers proudly announced Member for Chorley played a vital role in the cotton a loan of £340 million for Jaguar Land Rover and a industry as part of that. £370 million loan for Nissan. That was good news, but Of course, times have changed and manufacturing is on 6 May it became clear that the talks with Tata were changing with the times, shifting its base towards more slipping and struggling, and in danger of collapse. So and more high-tech manufacturing. Companies are here we are, five months on, and it is still unclear exactly developing in exciting new areas such as fuel cells, what has happened to the money. Will the Minister tell plastic electronics and Bluetooth technology. Traditional us whether a British company has received funds under sectors have reinvented themselves through information that programme? The German Government have delivered, and communications technology, software and new and the French and Italian Governments have delivered. technologies such as robotics and materials. Nevertheless, Why under our Government are British manufacturers our capability in advanced engineering remains world the last to receive the help that they have been promised? class. The Prime Minister likes to talk about providing real Despite the changes in manufacturing industry, it help, and I suspect that he needs it at the moment, but remains in some ways the unsung hero of the British he and his ministerial colleagues need to realise that economy. The statistics only partially indicate the talk is cheap. At the moment, their record is one of significance of the manufacturing industry to our economy. press releases, not practical action. It is a tale of dither However, as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and delay, of bold promises and then timid deeds. I have and Easter Ross (John Thurso) said, we remain a major no doubt that Ministers wish to help, but my fear is that manufacturer in world terms. We are the sixth-largest the gap between their rhetoric and the reality for businesses manufacturer in terms of value. At the end of 2008, the is one through which hundreds of manufacturers and manufacturing industries in this country employed close thousands of workers could yet be lost. to 3 million people and accounted for 12.6 per cent. or 183WH Manufacturing and Employment9 JUNE 2009 Manufacturing and Employment 184WH

[Kevin Brennan] that Jaguar Land Rover is very pleased and wishes to continue with the help and support that the Government £157.7 billion of our national output. In addition, as have given it. my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley said, manufacturing is responsible for 75 per cent. of our Kevin Brennan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for business research and development. Even taking account his intervention, which was, as ever, very helpful, fair of the global economic downturn, productivity in and reasonable. In the short time left, I shall try to manufacturing has been growing at a rapid rate in the address the point that I think he wanted to get to in the UK; it has grown by more than 50 per cent. since 1997. debate, which is his debate, after all. I am referring to As the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and wage subsidies. That is something that the Government Easter Ross pointed out, that is growth in real terms, have carefully and extensively examined. There are two albeit at a time when other sectors of the economy have reasons why currently the Government have not decided been growing more rapidly because of the changes that to proceed with the idea. First, there is the question we have seen in the structure of our economy. whether such schemes can be effective and would be However, we are here today because of the points value for money. Secondly, there is the experience of that my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley made that idea in the past. My hon. Friend the Member for about the way in which manufacturing, along with Stroud mentioned the 1970s, when wage subsidies were other sectors, is suffering in the global recession. The in place. The question is whether what happened represented latest data show that manufacturing output has fallen value for money or whether firms took the subsidy and for 13 months in a row. That is also happening in other did what they would have done anyway. countries, but as he pointed out, that is no consolation That said, the Government do understand the anxiety to the hard-working men and women in our communities and difficulty faced by people who find themselves out who have jobs in manufacturing and who are affected of pocket on shorter working weeks, so we are ensuring by those changes. Nor is it any consolation to those who that there is support for them. We have expanded the have had to switch to short-time working or who have Train to Gain scheme. Hon. Members acknowledged had to lose their jobs as a result of the economic that during the debate. That is the Government’s flagship downturn. skills service that supports employers of all sizes and in In many of the communities affected, memories are all sectors to improve their employees’ skills. From still fresh of the 1980s and ’90s. Then, when there was a January of this year, struggling small and medium-sized downturn and manufacturing was suffering, there was a enterprises have been able to access increased training very different response—some would say no response— provision to help them to emerge stronger in the upturn. from the Government. It was an approach not of trying That includes bite-size qualifications in business-critical to be fair to those communities, but of simply being areas and more funding for second qualifications. In the laissez-faire in their attitude towards the economic downturn meantime, individuals and families on tax credits will and towards manufacturing at that time. That has changed. see an automatic increase in the money that they receive, to compensate for the loss of income. In March, for Mr. Prisk: On that point, can the Minister tell me example, 355,000 families were receiving on average how many British companies have actually received £35 a week more support through tax credits. funds under the automotive assistance package? Where there are significant redundancies in the manufacturing sector, the rapid response service is working Kevin Brennan: I cannot at this point. I will write to to move people quickly into new jobs, preventing them the hon. Gentleman later, if he will allow me, given that from becoming detached from the labour market. We I have been in post for just a few hours. I will write to have doubled the funding for the service already and him when I have the opportunity. However, I will make will double it again. As we are particularly concerned to the point that at least the present Government are help the long-term unemployed, we are also making putting forward real help for industry in a way that was available 75,000 further education training places for not the philosophy when his party was last in power. Jobcentre Plus referrals after six months’ unemployment, taking on board the important points that hon. Members Mr. Hoyle: Much has been made of our not helping made about further education. and supporting the automotive industry. I can tell hon. I would like to go on and outline how we are preparing Members that the Select Committee on Business and for the upturn, which we hope is coming—many hon. Enterprise, of which I am a member, has recently taken Members referred to that—but I fear that time will not evidence from Jaguar Land Rover and other car companies allow me to do so. Our challenge now is to ensure that and the components sector, which welcome the initiatives, our manufacturing sector is ready to lead the industrial help and support that Jaguar Land Rover has been revolution of tomorrow, just as this country led the given by the Government. I must reassure hon. Members industrial revolution of the past. 185WH 9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 186WH

Council Tax Capping (Surrey) police force. They have led the way in developing neighbourhood policing, work force modernisation and common-sense policing. 11 am Mr. Jeremy Hunt (South-West Surrey) (Con): I Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I am delighted congratulate my hon. Friend on calling this incredibly that you are our Chairman, Mr. Fraser. I am also important debate on an issue about which people in delighted to have so many of my colleagues here—they Surrey feel extremely strongly. He mentioned look a little like a Maori Haka troupe, and I hope that neighbourhood policing, but does he agree that however the Minister will take note of that. We have a mascot as frustrated people in Surrey feel about the many failures well—[Interruption.] Perhaps I should wait until the of Government policy on law and order, neighbourhood Minister is seated and listening. policing is perhaps the one area in which they feel that I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this subject there have been huge improvements in recent years? It for debate. I think that I am correct in saying that every would be an enormous tragedy if rate capping and the Surrey MP, whether they are here or not, backs what I loss of 50 police posts led to cuts in the one area of have to say. We have deep concerns about the effects of policy that seems to have been working. capping and the re-billing of the capped council tax, which the Government have, as anticipated, demanded. Sir Paul Beresford: I thank my hon. Friend. He has We all realise that the order that is required to introduce picked on one of the key points that I and, I assume, capping has yet to be introduced, and the Minister may many of my hon. Friends will touch on later in this feel even more limited in what he can say, but I have short debate. called the debate to persuade him that if he continues In setting their 2009-10 budget, Surrey police have with capping by introducing the order, he should do so been forced to cut another 144 posts by focusing on in such a way as not to require re-billing. He also needs non-operational areas and investing in new technology. to recognise that all of us in Surrey believe in value for They have also managed to move extra resources to the money and in protecting the council tax payer. front line. Without capping, the force is, in essence, In looking at the effects of capping on Surrey police delivering unrivalled value for money for the community. and of the pending requirement to re-bill all Surrey for The latest reductions were carefully considered and its council tax, I need to do a certain amount of scene programmed early, without the urgency that will come setting. Surrey police are a county force, but with from capping and re-billing. It is astonishing that the metropolitan challenges. They describe the county as a police authority has been singled out for capping when target-rich environment, with a disproportionate number it clearly delivers value for money. of high-risk potential targets. Her Majesty’s inspectorate Mr. Peter Ainsworth (East Surrey) (Con): I, too, of constabulary says that Surrey police are in the top congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. half of our country’s forces in terms of the threat from While he is setting the scene, will he explain the scale of organised crime. With the county being criss-crossed by the reduction in grant funding that Surrey has had to some of the busiest motorways in Europe, and with undergo since 1997? I believe that it is in the region of Heathrow on one side and Gatwick on the other, the 40 per cent. in real terms. threats are obvious. Surrey’s close proximity to London explains why Sir Paul Beresford: I thank my hon. Friend. He is approximately half the criminal activity in the county is right. In 1997, Surrey police received £96 per head of perpetrated by those living outside it. To take one population in Government grant. Twelve years later, in example from last year, Surrey tackled 17 organised 2009, Surrey residents received £93 per person in police crime groups, of which 12 were London based. That grant. That is a real-terms reduction of 39—not quite cost Surrey at least £40 million. The police grant for 40—per cent. Surrey is the lowest per head in the country. As a Surrey police force and the Surrey policy authority consequence, council tax payers, unlike those in every have reached their tipping point, and operational policing other police authority, share the cost of our police at a in Surrey can no longer be protected from the cumulative ratio of 49: 51. Furthermore, there has been a year-on-year effects of more than a decade of underfunding, let real-terms reduction in police grant over the past 12 years. alone any capping or re-billing. Last month, the former Surrey police have responded, as we would hope, by Home Secretary gave a commitment to maintain increased delivering more in a better way and for less. A recent funding for the police grant, which she said would Audit Commission assessment of the authority’s value enable the Government at least to maintain police numbers. for money gave Surrey police the highest rating in That may be true across the whole nation, but it is 2007-08. The commission’s report said: certainly not true in Surrey, and it will be even less true with capping, re-billing and the progressive annual “When compared to similar forces Surrey Police receives a very low level of grant funding from central government and has the tightening of the budget. lowest expenditure per Band D property of any force in England Of course, there is an argument over the figures. Last and Wales. The high level of performance from a relatively low year, the Secretary of State set out a net budget requirement level of funding demonstrates excellent value for money to the increase of 4.82 per cent., but the actual increase in the taxpayer”. net budget requirement was 3.82 per cent. This year, the During its inspections last year, HMIC also gave the increase in the precept levied by Surrey police was performance of Surrey police a glowing report. More 4.89 per cent., but to my surprise, I discovered that the importantly perhaps, ratings from victims who were Department for Communities and Local Government surveyed and from the general public give Surrey police claimed that the precept had risen by 7.07 per cent. The a satisfaction rate of more than 80 per cent. Surrey Department based that on a notional precept, and the police work on the basis of being a modern, innovative idea of a notional precept is key. 187WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 188WH

[Sir Paul Beresford] The cost of designation is a further £1.6 million cut. The cumulative effect, over the same period, is another There is also an argument over reserves. Surrey police 55 personnel. Re-billing will cost Surrey police authority have reserves of £9.4 million, much of which is clearly £1.2 million, and that translates into a further manpower not available, because, technically, only general reserves reduction of 24. Over that time the population increase are available for expenditure. Those reserves stand at in Surrey will continue, and so will the threat of crime— £5.6 million, or 2.6 per cent. of the budget, but HMIC particularly cross-border crime—and the anticipated and the Audit Commission insist that that be lifted to threat of terrorism. The broad figures are that if the 3 per cent. That, too, will have an impact, on top of the Government insist on going ahead with the capping capping and the re-billing expenditure. order, and on re-billing, it will cost Surrey police authority As someone who has, in the past, been involved in £1.2 million to reduce the council tax bill by £1.6 million. programmed expenditure cuts, I am abundantly aware On Thursday, I received a response to a parliamentary of the fact that one of the worst effects of capping is question, from the Minister of State for Local Government that it is applied at the beginning of, or during, the that stated: financial year in question. That means that cuts in “Subject to the approval of an order by the House of Commons, expenditure at a late stage in the financial year must the reduction in Band D council tax in Surrey as a result of compensate for the failure to achieve a full-year effect capping will be £3.18.”—[Official Report, 4 June 2009; Vol. 493, from the beginning of the financial year—in simple c. 678W.] terms, the percentage cut must be higher to achieve the According to Mole Valley district council, my main full-year effect. billing authority, the overall cost to it of re-billing is With the prospect of capping in mind, the authority £172,000. That translates to an approximate cost per began setting this year’s budget in July 2008. The budget bill of £4.65. That means that in band D it costs £1.47 was carefully calculated and took account of the principles more than the reduction. Obviously, the balance is set out by the Secretary of State. The idea of a notional worse for the lower bands. It is not until band F that the precept was raised, and Surrey police finance officials negative balance is reversed. I hope that the Minister shared their concerns with lawyers from the Department can visualise the huge sigh of relief in every band D for Communities and Local Government. The lawyers household as the annual bill drops, by the Government’s confirmed in writing that order, by £3.18. I can see thousands of taxpayers rushing “there is no requirement on the Surrey police authority to calculate to buy a bottle of cheap wine, equivalent to £3.18, to the notional level of Council Tax (based on the notional budget celebrate. However, as most of them pay in 10 instalments, requirement) 2008/09 and Surrey police authority will set their the reduction will be 32p a month over 10 months. budget requirement and their precept for 2009/10…in the normal Perhaps after saving 32p a month for 10 months it will way”. be a pint of beer, a packet of crisps and a packet of To avoid capping and its effects, the authority carefully peanuts at the pub. calculated the budget. Three days before setting the budget, the Department announced a notional 2008-09 Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) budget and a notional band D council tax. That left the (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that at a time when police authority with the threat of capping. Given that public spending will be tightly constrained anyway it is the cuts arising from capping were late and unplanned, incumbent on Governments to ensure that every penny they had an extra detrimental effect on the force. of public money is carefully used, and that the Government In the past financial year, the Surrey police work have failed abjectly to do that in the case that is being force was 4,229-strong. The continuing prospect of capping outlined? First, they have failed to set out clearly what means that the authority must produce a progressive was required of Surrey police authority, so that it could extrapolation of financial constraints, which produces a take action that would not lead to the present situation; series of cuts as the Surrey police authority calculates secondly, they have proposed a disproportionate response, its manpower for the years 2009-10 to 20012-13. That which no taxpayer will accept as a sensible way of commences with the loss of 159 personnel this year, dealing with a rather small excess, as it will, as my hon. with a total loss of 373 personnel by the end of the Friend has pointed out, cost nearly the entirety of what process, and that is before designation and re-billing. will be recovered to undertake re-billing.

Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): Does my Sir Paul Beresford: My hon. Friend’s timing is perfect. hon. Friend share my frustration not only that are there I expect the effect of the re-billing notice on most significant manpower issues in relation to the capping council tax payers to be confusion or bemusement. If itself, but that the re-billing exercise will add an additional they are aware of the cost of the re-billing to the already cost that is wholly unnecessary and will put extra burdens strapped police force, they will be furious. Local authorities on the district councils required to carry it out and lead throughout Surrey will have to reset their direct debits to a further cut in manpower, at a time when a county for every council tax payer who pays by that means. that must deal with the policing of Heathrow, the M25 Many thousands of people pay by bankers’ orders and and Gatwick airport will also, I fear, face increased will have to send off new bankers’ order forms, which overspill crime from London, because of a rise in property will probably cost about 20 per cent. of the so-called crime rates resulting from the recession? Does he agree saving, and there may be additional costs at the banks. that the capping is the wrong thing to do, at the wrong That is perhaps the smile side, if there is one, to the time? re-billing problem, but there is a deeply serious effect. My constituency is a mixture of rural and semi-rural. It Sir Paul Beresford: Completely; I think that all has two main towns—Dorking and Leatherhead—and Opposition Members would agree with that statement. approximately 32 villages spread across the countryside, 189WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 190WH and considerable numbers of relatively isolated houses The case for Surrey police being capped is wrong. in between. In the past several years, organised crime The effect on the safety of the people of Mole Valley and individual thefts of agricultural property on Surrey and Surrey will be quite marked. To add to the arguably farms have cost hundreds of thousands of pounds a incorrect injury the unnecessary cost of re-billing each year. Several years ago, such crime was successfully council tax payer for such a minuscule amount is ludicrous. targeted by a special police team in Surrey, and following I ask the Minister to accept, if the Government win the its success, Surrey police set up a single liaison officer anticipated judicial review, that although they will have for farmers, known as the farm liaison officer. That was made their point—however erroneous—they should not a full-time job. With last year’s cuts it became a half-time require the unnecessary re-billing. The legislation allows job. I am concerned that, as Surrey police authority that, and common sense demands it. looks around for further savings because of the re-billing and the designation, that key officer may have to be Several hon. Members rose— drawn back in, and the post may go. Christopher Fraser (in the Chair): I intend that the Antisocial behaviour is a big problem at the moment. winding-up speeches should start at about 12 o’clock, It is continually sprouting up in my area, showing its depending on how many hon. Members want to speak. ugly head in forms varying from general abuse through to shop and household window-breaking. It has now 11.19 am moved on to unlawful purchasing and semi-organised Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher and Walton) (Con): It is an theft, by groups, of alcohol. The latest problem is a honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Fraser, series of serious arson attacks in different towns and and a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member villages. Generally, Surrey police have been successful in for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford). He initiated the stemming the tide of those activities and acting either debate but, as has already been pointed out, all Surrey pre-emptively or preventively. When that is not possible, MPs are very much alongside him. It takes quite a lot to there has been an organised attack on the problem. pull all the Surrey MPs together on one issue, but today However, the greatest value comes, as was mentioned in we are debating that issue, which is county-wide. The an intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Government’s attitude to Surrey police beggars belief. South-West Surrey (Mr. Hunt), from neighbourhood One of the best forces is being undermined, year by specialist officers. Those individuals are present in the year, by the Government’s funding formula. neighbouring police force, where they are also very The force is being treated as a rural force but it is on successful. The Metropolitan police have one the outskirts of London. As my hon. Friend said, its neighbourhood specialist officer per 100 crimes. At the area is criss-crossed by major roads. Several times, it has moment—before the cuts that will have to be made—Surrey had to respond to terrorist outbreaks at the airports on police have less than half a neighbourhood specialist either side, at Heathrow and Gatwick. The county also officer per 100 crimes. I have been talking to a local suffers from trans-border crime, which crosses into it police inspector in one of my towns, which is having a from London—and particularly into my constituency, lot of difficulty from three dozen or so youths, who which borders it. It suffers from a disparity of treatment work either in groups or gangs. The most likely effect of between the Metropolitan police and the Surrey police capping is that the inspector may have to reduce the force. number of front-line neighbourhood officers following the capping and re-billing. Surrey Members with borders that are contiguous with London know that at the beginning of this decade some of their constituencies were covered by the Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): I am extremely Metropolitan police. That changed when the then Home grateful to my hon. Friend for securing the debate. Ten Secretary agreed that Surrey would be properly respected. of the 11 Members of Parliament for Surrey constituencies Its ordinary policemen and women are under a lot of are attending the debate. The only absentee is my hon. pressure; they are trained in Surrey but are often attracted Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), by higher wages and salaries to the capital. London, of the shadow Secretary of State for Education, who is course, is much better funded. I was one of those who addressing a major education conference this morning. supported Surrey having its own police force. I hope that that fact will impress on the Minister the seriousness with which all Surrey MPs view the issue. I ask the Government to think carefully about a matter of equity. Given that council tax payers in Surrey My hon. Friend has been talking about neighbourhood contribute almost 50 per cent. of the cost of the Surrey specialist officers: I do not want such local intelligence police, it is incumbent on the Government to reconsider to disappear from my area, not least because last night, the formula. Given that the Surrey taxpayer contributes Surrey police managed to arrest a burglar who attacked considerable sums to the country’s overall tax revenues, my premises in my constituency. I take this occasion to and that we are helping to fund other parts of the thank Surrey police for their rapid intervention and the country, it would be appropriate for us to be given welcome arrest of someone who will, I hope, be brought slightly better treatment when it comes to the funding to justice in due course. My hon. Friend has done a of the Surrey force. To make matters worse, we are singular service in securing the debate, and the Minister being capped. As my hon. Friend so eloquently pointed should be under no illusions as to how important the out, capping yields little except disadvantage to people issue is in Surrey, and how insane the capping proposal who live in Surrey. The effect is alarming. The cost of is, when viewed in simple common-sense terms. the refunding equates to 24 officers—at least two per borough in Surrey might need to be taken out. Sir Paul Beresford: I think that common sense is the All Surrey Members could argue about the importance theme, but I am always a little dubious about using the of their local police. For instance, two of my police term, as it has been misaligned in the past. stations are manned by volunteers. They provide an 191WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 192WH

[Mr. Ian Taylor] “people doing ‘away days’ from London in order to redistribute wealth.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 January 2009; excellent service for the community, and they receive a Vol. 706, c. 1012.] lot of support from the officers; they, too, do a tremendous The Audit Commission assessment states that there is job. However, we may be losing the volunteers, in Cobham no doubt that Surrey police have managed their affairs and elsewhere, despite the fact that they have provided and finances excellently and that they give value for an identifiable service to the public, reassuring the money of the highest grade, being one of only six forces public that they are being protected. that achieved that status in 2007-08. It has the lowest The other issue that Surrey police have to face, apart expenditure per band D property. from the question of community and neighbourhood Much of what Surrey police do is excellent, but with policing, is that occasional big events require them to tight resources it is not always perfect. To a large extent, keep financial reserves. The Government cannot decide resourcing has been a continuing problem for the force, that reserves should be raided to suit their political and it acknowledges that it cannot always give the service policies. They are necessary; incidents, including terrorist that it would like. Rightly, it is cutting 144 back-office incidents, need a response, as do major crimes. For jobs and replacing them with technology improvements instance, some years ago Milly Dowler was murdered to hold on to its front-line force, but it faces losing outside Walton station. The police investigation continues; another 50 front-line jobs if the Government have in theory, it is still ongoing, but the inquiry continued their way. for several years at virtually full strength, until the allegation was made that someone who is now behind Policing in Guildford is not easy. We have a busy bars for other reasons may have committed the crime. night-time economy, persistent crime in the large rural areas, and some serious antisocial behaviour, much of Surrey police need to respond to other issues, but that which involves criminal damage. Indeed, antisocial often requires them to make exceptional calls on reserves behaviour is often a euphemism for crime. There is in order to meet the additional costs. In the past, when I terrible criminal damage; someone stole a saw and cut and my colleagues have taken up cases, we have lobbied down trees on an estate; elderly residents are being the Government for better treatment in order to balance terrorised and are afraid to go out in the evenings; and a the county’s financial position. For instance, it sometimes local business woman could not cope with the police has to respond to events at Heathrow—and not only response to the number of racist and violent attacks on terrorism: occasionally, misguided environmental protests her staff and now employs her own private security. It is require a lot of police attention, and security is a not good enough. concern. Given the tight police budgets, with the best will in We are looking for a sensible balance. First, we the world the police cannot respond as they want; they should avoid rebilling. That is the principal reason for are angry and the public are frustrated. Too many kids today’s debate. Secondly, we should reconsider how the are getting away with completely unacceptable behaviour. funding formula works. In equity, it must be wrong to I cannot speak too highly of the community wardens, undermine progressively a force that has already made the police and community support officers and the substantial cuts, year on year, and that will need to do neighbourhood specialist officers in Guildford. However, so again. Thirdly, the Government should persuade the poor resources leave many areas badly wanting. The people of Surrey that they, the Government, understand public are not getting the service that they deserve; it that undermining a police force is not the way to falls well short. improve people’s sense of security. The Government have made a monumental I now give a quick plug to the Street Angels project in misjudgment. It is a miscalculation, based on a theoretical Guildford. Those not familiar with Street Angels should precept, and it should be abandoned. Whether it should come to Guildford in the evening and watch. Set up by be abandoned after judicial review I shall not say, but it the churches in Guildford, they support the town police. should certainly be withdrawn gracefully. The Surrey Surrey police have been excellent in working with them, police force should be allowed to rebuild, to help the and we have seen a real drop in crime. None the less, it people of Surrey feel secure; they live on the edge is difficult. of London and are already paying half the cost of I get very tired of having to listen to Ministers telling the force. us what they are giving us. The truth is that in 1997 we were receiving £96 per head; in 2009 we are getting 11.25 am £93 per head. As a result, 50 per cent. of the funding Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): I congratulate my comes from the council tax payer; elsewhere in the hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul country, it is approximately 25 per cent. We in Surrey Beresford) on securing this debate. As we have heard, it raise a lot of money for the Treasury, and we are not is hard to herd Surrey MPs. The fact that we are all here getting a good deal in return. shows our strength of feeling, and I hope that the This year, the situation is ridiculous. The Government Minister will take note of that. rejected attempts by Surrey police to meet officials and As time is short, I shall not say more on matters that Ministers. The Department for Communities and Local were so eloquently mentioned by my hon. Friend. However, Government created the notional precept, and I know some key factors must be re-emphasised. Surrey police that the Surrey police force is considering taking legal force is a county force with urban challenges; it borders action on that. Police officials raised the concept of a two airports and some of the busiest motorways in notional precept with the DCLG, but were reassured London. Half of the crime there is committed by people that they should set their budget as normal. Three days from outside Surrey. Indeed, Lord West acknowledged before the Surrey police authority set its budget, the criminals as Government wrote to say that they had not yet determined 193WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 194WH any capping principles. With officials refusing to talk to I expect the Minister to tell me that he has met with it, Surrey police authority had to set a budget in the Lord West to discuss what I and Lord Trefgarne said to dark. him. I expect that the Minister knows the date of the I hope that the Minister will respond to many of the meeting and has been briefed about it and our position. arguments raised today.Everyone in Surrey, and Guildford What was the result of our meeting? Were our fears and in particular, wants their council tax bills to fall, but concerns taken on board? It seems to me and Lord they also want to be safe. The police struggle, and the Trefgarne that our concerns, emanating from the very public are cross, fearful and not getting the service that top of Surrey police force, about this huge issue of they deserve. The Minister has it within his power to terrorism, have not been recognised and taken into reconsider this matter before he lays the draft order. I account. hope that he does not come out with the usual platitudes. That is the only issue that I want to raise today, We have heard that the Prime Minister is very keen to because I take a particular interest in it. My constituents listen to people, and I sincerely hope that the Minister agree with the powerful arguments made by my hon. will take this opportunity to listen to the people of Friends today. Their concerns are felt deeply throughout Surrey. Surrey, not only by residents themselves—they, after all, are the most important people—but by the Members of Parliament who represent them. That is why we are here 11.30 am today laying out our compelling arguments, one of Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): It is a pleasure which is about funding in relation to terrorist threats. I to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Fraser, and I hope that the Minister will deal with that specifically offer my very sincere congratulations to my hon. Friend when he replies. the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this debate. I thank him and my hon. Friends 11.35 am the Members for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) and for Guildford (Anne Milton) for laying out the arguments. Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne) (Con): It is a pleasure It bears repeating to the Minister that the fact that all to be down here, for a change, rather than where you available Surrey MPs are here today proves that we all are, Mr. Fraser, and able to make a speech in Westminster feel very strongly about the matter before us. Hall. In this brief speech, I shall not deal with some of the Until the Government set up the Greater London arguments made already—they were well made and authority, the whole of my constituency was part of the stand up—but focus only on terrorism as it affects Metropolitan police district. The Government argued Surrey. It is a real problem for Surrey police and their that my constituents would get better policing and feel funding. As has been said, Heathrow and Gatwick, the more comfortable with a county constabulary than by two principal airports in this country, are on our borders. being policed by London. Like my hon. Friend the I am old enough—I do not suspect that you are, Member for Woking(Mr. Malins), I believed and supported Mr. Fraser—to remember the days when a separate them. Years later, I find myself having to say that what police force for our airports was in existence. It might is being delivered, through no fault of Surrey police, is have been 30 years ago—I cannot remember—but it not what we would have expected had we remained was a very long time ago when the British Airports within the Metropolitan police district. Do not get me Authority police, which was an entirely separate force, wrong—I do not want to return to it—but we were told looked after policing issues at Gatwick and Heathrow. that the service would improve, but the reality is as has In those days, many of today’s problems did not been depicted today. exist, and it was right that there came a time when the Like my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley terrorism situation—an incident at Heathrow perhaps— (Sir Paul Beresford), who introduced this debate, I have resulted in the abolition, in due course, of those police long experience of local government and have watched forces specifically covering Gatwick and Heathrow. It successive Governments introduce formulas, add to them, meant that the threat of terrorism associated with our simplify them, abolish them and reintroduce them, in airports had been recognised. Surrey police—I know the fond belief that they can find one that will get this because I have spoken to the chief constable and everything right, everywhere. But they cannot! There many others—have had to invest much time and money have to be special cases. The worst possible sort of in protecting the county and its surrounding areas from formula is an inflexible one, which is what we are terrorist threats. This is a very serious issue. dealing with this morning. My hon. Friend was worried A few months ago, I visited the noble Lord West, the about mentioning common sense. I do not apologise for security Minister, to discuss terrorism, especially in mentioning it, because I was brought up by a headmaster relation to Surrey, and the question of funding. I and who would not have more than 12 rules in his school. the noble Lord Trefgarne, who was also at the meeting—he He insisted that the 12th was that the above 11 were no is a Woking resident and takes a great interest in these substitute for common sense. That is the issue today. matters—made Lord West well aware of the real-term Surrey faces special problems that the Government cuts and the awful way in which we think that Surrey refuse to recognise. I shall briefly mention three of police have been treated financially over the years. We them. The first, which has been mentioned already, is also made a very strong statement to him about terrorist Heathrow, parts of which are in my constituency, although and other such threats in our county, and went into the airfield itself is not. Of the 30-odd sites that are confidential matters that I cannot repeat today—they checked regularly as possible places from which terrorists followed detailed briefings that we had received. We could attack the airport, a goodly number are in my also put to him very clearly the argument about the constituency. Already, due to the pressures, Surrey police funding basis. has to get the Met to help it do the job that the 195WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 196WH

[Mr. David Wilshire] from Government grant for our needs rather than just being used to provide money that is sent somewhere Government expect it to do but will not fund it properly else? to do. The Government are introducing measures to force BAA to pay the full cost to the Met of policing the 11.42 am airfield, but to the best of my knowledge—perhaps the Minister will correct me—no attempt has been made to Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) allow the knock-on costs to Surrey to be charged to (Con): I was not intending to speak in this debate, but, BAA as well. Our constituents have to pay for that, and as my hon. Friends have been admirably succinct, we if ever there were a special case, that is it. Some concession have a little time left, so I should like to take the must be made for the Government’s ever-growing demands opportunity to make a short contribution. Unfortunately, for security measures at Heathrow. I am sure that my I have to leave at 12 o’clock, and I apologise in advance hon. Friends who know more about Gatwick than I do for any discourtesy. would advance the same case. However, Heathrow is on My hon. Friends have set out very clearly the underlying my doorstep, so I make that case myself. pressures facing Surrey police. Surrey is a target-rich environment; there are many temptations for criminals Mr. Peter Ainsworth: As a Member whose constituency and we have a proximity to a pool of crime, which is borders Gatwick, I confirm that my hon. Friend is both organised and opportunistic, in the London right. May I add another thing that has not been conurbation. Surrey police have a small level of reserves, mentioned? One of the biggest crime hotspots in my and I hope that the Minister will not suggest that the constituency is Clacket Lane service station on the reserves should be raided to meet some of the pressures M25, which is a hotbed of vice of all kinds and a real that the force is facing. We need those reserves to deal problem for those policing the eastern part of Surrey. with unexpected events. My hon. Friend the Member Let us not forget the problems created there as well. for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) referred to the Milly Dowler case, which involved an extraordinary police operation costing millions of pounds. In my own Mr. Wilshire: I have been a customer of my hon. constituency a few years earlier, we were unwilling hosts Friend’s service station—I hope that I did not add to to an unwilling guest—the former President of the the crime while I was there—which gives me the opportunity Chilean Republic, General Pinochet. That operation to mention my concern about motorway issues. In cost Surrey police well in excess of £1 million. At the places, the constituency boundary goes down the middle time, we were promised categorically that there would of the carriageway. My constituency includes the busiest be no net cost to Surrey taxpayers, but the reimbursement part of the M25, which is the busiest motorway in the from central Government never came close to meeting United Kingdom. There has been no recognition of the full cost of that policing operation. It is for such that or the fact that the Staines junction, junction 13, reasons that forces have to maintain appropriate reserves. has the highest accident record of any junction on the whole of the M25—that was true the last time that I Let me dwell for a moment on process. While the checked. The formula does not take into account the points about the underlying funding and underfunding special case that arises there. The county force is expected of Surrey police force have been well made, my concern to deliver the quality of service that everyone has a right about this particular issue relates to process. Having to expect, when those involved in accidents on the M25 read the facts, I have to say that Franz Kafka would are not often residents of Surrey. It is very rare for a have been impressed by the way in which the Government Surrey resident to be involved in such an accident, so convey—or, rather, do not convey—detailed information our constituents have to pay the cost of other people’s to precepting authorities to enable them to set a precept accidents, which is unreasonable. that will not fall foul of rules that have not been made at the time the precept is set. I should also like to address Let me pick up the point about cross-border crime. the question of the proportionality of the response. I My hon. Friends have mentioned London. My constituency hope that the Minister has some good news for us is caught in a pincer movement. I can tell when places today. There will not be anyone in this country in the such as Hounslow and Hammersmith and Fulham are current environment who thinks that spending £1.2 million having a purge on crime, because the M4 gets busy and of public money to return £1.6 million to Surrey council crime rates go up in my constituency. People rush out of tax payers is a sensible way to proceed. I suggest to the London, down the M4 and turn into my constituency Minister that he is in danger of appearing to be pursuing and cause trouble. When we have dealt with that, the an agenda of petty political vindictiveness rather than next thing we find is that Thames Valley police is having an agenda of common sense. a purge in Slough, so the people of Slough get on the M4 and come rushing down to my constituency and Anne Milton: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is cause mayhem from the other direction. Yet a rural either incompetence or cock-up? Such a policy is either county force is expected to deal with that without any political vindictiveness or it is Government gone completely special recognition, which is wrong. mad. It is exactly this sort of thing that is driving the public mad. Plenty of people, including the Audit Commission, the inspectorate and my residents, say that Surrey has Mr. Hammond: I agree with my hon. Friend. I hope an excellent police force. Our constituents probably pay that it is not petty political vindictiveness. Let us explore the greatest amount of tax of any county in England whether it is a kind of institutional vindictiveness. By into the central Exchequer. We do not mind doing that, that I mean a sort of situation in which the centre because it is only fair that wealthier areas should make cannot bear to be ignored or defied, even inadvertently, a greater contribution. We understand that, but is it and has to slap back in a disproportionate response. I unreasonable to say that we should get a fair return hope that the Minister—whether or not he is prepared 197WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 198WH to say so today—will privately reflect on a situation in Sir Paul Beresford: It was a good minute. which such a disproportionate response is mandated by the system. Sarah Teather: I am sure that it was a very important Mr. Peter Ainsworth: It is a ludicrous situation. My minute and I sincerely apologise. hon. Friend sets it out very clearly. I know that he The problems with capping have been characterised personally keeps a very close eye on public spending perfectly clearly in the debate. The hon. Gentleman and value for money. Does he have any thoughts about spoke about the cost of police jobs and the impact on the additional cost to the taxpayer of the Government the local area, the potential impacts on the budget for proceeding to fight a judicial review? many years to come, and the nonsense of the Government expecting a police authority to eat into its own reserves. Mr. Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right A number of hon. Members explained that that is like that such a review would pile insult on to injury. Instead using a hammer to crack a nut. It is a ridiculous of £1.2 million to deal with a £1.6 million over-billing, situation: budgets are set on a notional basis and it is if we may be talking about a situation in which the total local authorities are working out what they are supposed bill has climbed beyond £1.6 million. Although I do not to be doing entirely in shadow. We have notional budgets, think that anyone on the Conservative Benches would caps and council tax levels, and nobody knows what argue that there does not need to be a solution to the they are supposed to be doing until well after they have over-billing that has taken place, there is an objection set the budget. to a cap and re-bill proposal that will cost at least £1.2 million. It is telling that so many of Surrey’s MPs are here to I suggest to the Minister that he should use two tests speak in favour of their police authority.My understanding when deciding whether to proceed down this route. is that local Liberal Democrats have been supporting First, will it satisfy those who are supposed to be the the police authority in this action, so the Labour party beneficiaries—those who are supposed to be protected is rather on its own. by it, and band E council tax payers who will receive a The problem is that capping comes right at the end of £3 reduction in their annual council tax bill and will the process—police and local authorities have already have to use up a significant proportion of it setting up a gone through the process of setting their budgets when new direct debit or standing order? I suggest to him that a cap is imposed. They will have gone through the it will not. process of different departments deciding their spending Secondly, will it satisfy what has famously been described priorities, and anyone who is on a fixed-term contract as the court of public opinion on the common-sense knows that they have a contract. Then, right at the end test? Will the taxpayers of this country at large think of the process, the Government threaten to slap a cap that this was a sensible and proportionate intervention on the authority and expect it to somehow remove a by the Government? Clearly they will not. I suggest to large sum from its budget, which undermines the whole the Minister that he will greatly enhance his own reputation planning process. if he can intervene in this matter. He should act with It is as if we go through a macho charade once a year. common sense in the present case and discuss with his The Government refuse to tell local authorities what colleagues a way forward for the future—if there is a the cap is and what they are expected to do, and the future for them—in which clear guidance is set out in a authorities are supposed somehow to work it out by timely fashion. That would help to ensure that no other some process of osmosis or telepathy. When they get it authority, police, local or otherwise, ever finds itself in a wrong, the Government take draconian action that situation of over-billing as a consequence of not clearly inevitably results in council tax payers picking up the understanding the baseline against which it should be cost of re-billing, either in future budget cuts or directly. working and the capping guidelines that the Government The long-term result is that the relationship between of the day wish to impose. In that way, we would have central and local government is utterly undermined. clear information and a pragmatic response when something goes wrong. I hope that despite the Conservatives’ concerns, the Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): I congratulate the Minister will engage in the debate in a spirit of common hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on sense to find a solution that satisfies the needs to spend introducing the debate. Derbyshire has been capped in public money carefully and wisely and to protect the exactly the same way as Surrey, except that we are not taxpayers of Surrey, and also protects the services that having to re-bill this year. We simply have to lose Surrey police wish to continue delivering to their citizens £1.6 million next year and 60 front-line officers in a and our constituents. Those people certainly hope that force that already has 300 fewer police officers than the services continue to be provided for them. most equivalent authorities. Christopher Fraser (in the Chair): Unless any other Will my hon. Friend elaborate on the principle of rate Member wishes to make a contribution in the available capping and the devolution of power? We hear a lot time, I shall turn to the wind-ups. from the Government about localism and allowing local authorities the freedom to operate, yet they take 90 per cent. of taxation to London before handing it out, with 11.51 am strings, to local authorities, saying, “Your localism and Sarah Teather (Brent, East) (LD): I congratulate the your freedom is to operate within these constraints.” hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on That would not happen in France, Germany, Scandinavia securing this important debate. I sincerely apologise for or the United States. Local authorities in those places missing the first minute of his speech—I was held up on have responsibility: they raise the money and run their my way here. local police forces and schools. 199WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 200WH

Christopher Fraser (in the Chair): Order. The hon. find a way to avoid re-billing, and that going through a Gentleman knows that this is a debate about Surrey. I judicial review process, which will cost goodness knows have allowed the intervention but I am glad that he has how much more, would utterly undermine any purpose sat down. whatever. Part of the problem for police authorities is that they Sarah Teather: Thank you, Mr. Fraser. My hon. have no elected mandate. They raise and set taxes, but Friend demonstrates that the problem has affected not they are not directly accountable to the people from only Surrey, but other police authorities. The debate whom the taxes are raised. That probably allows the allows us to see the direct impact on local people and Government to do their worst in overruling the authorities’ local views. The problem affects areas other than Surrey. ability to set priorities. I would like police authorities to have some form of directly elected mandate and nomination Sir Paul Beresford: The hon. Lady ought to be aware of local authority representatives. That would give them that although a number of authorities are capped, to a much stronger hand and the ability to say to central the best of my knowledge, mine is the only one that Government, “Don’t interfere in what we’re doing. We looks as if it will be required to re-bill. haven’t only consulted; we have a direct mandate to be here and to set our own priorities and budget.” Sarah Teather: The hon. Gentleman is completely Hon. Members have said that Surrey consulted. From correct. Other authorities have been nominated but my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Paul have not had to go through the process of re-billing, but Holmes), I know that those in Derbyshire consulted as my hon. Friend said, no matter where authorities are heavily, yet central Government still overruled what the on the scale, there is a devastating impact on their police authority was prepared to do. Some form of ability, and the ability of the police authority concerned, elected mandate would help a great deal. to plan for the future and on job security. Of course, the re-billing aspect about which hon. Members spoke seems particularly silly. To recover £1.6 million for a cost of [MR.MIKE WEIR in the Chair] £1.2 million is surely bonkers. I am amazed that the Government cannot see that. That is why I described it Paul Holmes: Many hon. Members from Surrey have as a purposeless macho charade. commented on the fact that Government inspectors My hon. Friend spoke about localism and I spoke have recognised that the Surrey police authority is very about the relationship between central and local efficient in handling its finances and policing operations. government, but almost every hon. Member has spoken The same is true in Derbyshire. Government inspectors about the issue of the police authority in Surrey. The say that Derbyshire is highly efficient and has made hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) spoke about £40 million in efficiency savings. Central Government her town and a number of hon. Members spoke about are therefore saying to highly efficient police authorities, airports and the problem of the M25 going through “Even though you’re very efficient and everybody across Surrey. Normally, when Back Benchers speak about your county agrees with what you’re doing in raising a difficulties in their constituency, a Minister stands up bit more money out of council tax to make up for and says, “Oh well. It is the duty of Back Benchers to Government underfunding, we’re going to cap you and whinge about their constituencies and to make special stop you doing that.” Where is the logic and the local pleas,” but devolution is supposed to devolve power accountability in that? down to the local area because people there know best. Sarah Teather: The truth is that there is no logic and The average local MP, police authority and local no local accountability whatever. authority will know a good deal more about the issues affecting their area than a Government Minister, who The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge may have never been to see what is happening on the (Mr. Hammond), who is no longer in his place, accused ground. That is the nonsense of capping. We are supposed the Government of petty political vindictiveness, but I to allow local authorities to set their budgets and priorities am not sure that that is actually the cause. I think that it because they know best, but central Government come is simply the case that unless the Government are prepared in and slap a cap on them and say, “Actually, you don’t to wave their stick around at some point in the process know best and we’re going to undermine all the priorities of council tax setting, they cannot instil any fear into that you have set.” other local authorities. At least one or two local authorities and police authorities need to be picked off, bullied in The hon. Member for Guildford said that the police public and made an example of so that the Government authority asked the DCLG for guidance at the end of can continue to claim that they have some authority. its budget-setting process, but the DCLG consistently said that it had no firm plans to set a cap. That is silly. I Mr. Wilshire: Would the hon. Lady not describe it as spoke about that following a ministerial statement a few vindictive or suspicious if the Government want to months ago. wave that stick about? I agree that they want to make a I hope that the Conservative spokesperson condemns case of somebody; they are picking on a county where capping in general. The issue of re-billing in Surrey and there is not a single Labour MP to complain. the fact that it went right through the system is not the only problem; capping in general is a problem. Central Sarah Teather: It is certainly vindictive, but I am not Government use a heavy hand to set priorities that may sure that I give the Government credit for that much have little or no impact on the final budget, yet they thought. I suspect that the process is much more random have a huge impact on the quality of services. I agree than that. I think that they merely pick a couple of with hon. Members who said that if the Government random councils to make public scapegoats of so that must have some kind of capping system, they need to they can claim to have some authority over local authorities. 201WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 202WH

The fundamental problem, as the Minister well knows, Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right, of course. is that council tax is a deeply unpopular tax. That is why Only local people can judge the balance of how much the Government need to wave their big sticks around they think it is right to invest in policing and what they when it comes to Budget-setting time—in order to want in return. demonstrate that they are doing something about council The other irony is how much money is being wasted tax. We all know that council tax rises are above inflation on regional and local government by Ministers. In the every single year. The tax is felt keenly, particularly by past 10 years, the combined cost of unelected regional the low-paid, because they know that it is unfair. It is assemblies, regional development agencies and Government not based on their ability to pay or even on the price of offices for the regions has risen to £12.8 billion, which is their house. It bears no relationship to whether they £580 for every household every year. The Government own their property and is based on a notional value that should trim those costs to gain efficiencies before looking is decades out of date. Until the Government are prepared to front-line services such as policing. to grasp the whole of local government finance, introduce a system of local taxation based on people’s income and The hon. Member for Brent, East (Sarah Teather) ability to pay and devolve power and finance-raising raised the question of our approach to council tax down to local authorities in a serious way, I am afraid capping. We would abolish central capping, because we that we will go through the same charade every year. It think that residents and local communities should have is deeply depressing. the ability to cap, if that is what they want and if they decide that what is being proposed is more than they can or are willing to pay. However, that is for local 12.3 pm communities to do at a much earlier stage in the process than the last minute. As has been pointed out, we are Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): I congratulate my already in the 2009 financial year, so the savings being hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul forced on Surrey police have been exacerbated. They Beresford) on securing this important debate. The fact are not annual savings and will have to be taken over a that so many Surrey MPs have turned up and that they much shorter period. have so eloquently represented their constituents’ concerns about the capping of the Surrey police precept demonstrates We need more local decision making, and with that to the Minister, I hope, how important the issue has should come more local accountability from the police. become. I welcome him to his new role. We have discussed our plans to have more local democracy in the form of directly elected police commissioners and I shall keep my comments as brief as possible, because the ability for local residents to introduce their own a lot of questions have been posed and concerns raised, referendums on local issues, if enough of them want to and we now need the Minister to answer them. It seems do so, and that should include capping. to me that today’s debate involves irony on painful irony.Council tax has doubled under Labour, yet Ministers I will leave the Minister with a final thought. The have made no complaint about it. Different approaches question that he must ultimately answer is simple. Why are taken in different parts of the country. The Met is it for him to decide to cap Surrey police’s precept and precept, charged by the London Mayor, has quadrupled not for the residents who have been so clearly represented in the past 10 years—it has been frozen, thank heavens, here today by their Members of Parliament? now that we have a new and better Mayor. Again, the Government took no action on that. Yet when Surrey police, which clearly faces a range of challenges on the 12.8 pm policing front—perhaps more than most police forces—put The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for a toe out of line, the Government imposed a Communities and Local Government (Mr. Shahid Malik): disproportionate cap that, as we have heard, will cost It is a pleasure to respond to the debate in your company, practically as much to enforce as it will raise. Mr. Weir. It appears that half the Opposition Front Benchers have taken the trouble to turn up today to Mr. Peter Ainsworth: Let us be quite clear: it is not wish me well in my reinstatement as a Minister. I am Surrey police that put a toe out of line; it is the Government touched, and I thank them. I congratulate the hon. who are out of order. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this debate, which is our second in the past few weeks. Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I should begin by explaining the background of how We have heard today that the Surrey police authority we got to our present position in relation to Surrey has been evaluated by the Audit Commission and rated police authority. The Government have made it clear in by residents. People are happy with its performance. every year since 2004-05 that we will take capping The key question that the Government need to answer action against excessive council tax increases. That followed is who should make the decision. Why should it be the successive years of high increases early in the decade, Minister and his Department rather than residents? which happened despite the generous grant increases that authorities received from the Government. That culminated in an average band D increase in England of Mr. Ian Taylor: That is exactly the point. Why are the 12.9 per cent. in 2003-04. Surrey police authority took Government intervening when the Surrey council tax the opportunity that year to set an increase of 40.1 per payer is providing half the funding for Surrey police, cent. I am sure that all hon. Members agree that such Surrey taxpayers are contributing massively to the central increases— Exchequer and the force will have to be reduced by a further 24 officers to pay for the diktat that the Government are imposing centrally? Sir Paul Beresford: Will the Minister give way? 203WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 204WH

Mr. Malik: I will not give way on many occasions, but Justine Greening: If the Surrey police precept is going I will, of course, give way to the hon. Gentleman. up by more than the Minister thinks that it should, but people in Surrey are willing to pay it, why is it anything Sir Paul Beresford: We have been careful to leave time to do with Whitehall? to allow for interventions on the Minister. The Minister is not correct in saying that there is a Mr. Malik: I will answer that in due course, along real-terms increase for Surrey. There may have been with the other points that have been raised. nationally, but there was a negative increase for Surrey, If the authority is now crying foul because it is faced where the figure went down in real terms. with re-billing costs, it has only itself to blame. The authority is threatening a judicial review to argue that Mr. Malik: I am sure that all hon. Members agree the Secretary of State does not have the power to set a that such increases are totally unacceptable and that we capping principle by reference to a notional amount of do not want to see such levels again—council tax payers council tax. I will therefore not comment further on certainly do not want to. that matter. However, it is not the case that the authority was first informed about its 2008-09 notional council Successive years of grant increases and the use of our tax in January 2009, as has been suggested. capping powers led to the average band D increase in England coming down to just 3 per cent. in 2009-10. Mr. Ian Taylor: The Minister is talking about the The average increase per household this year is even notional precept. I want it on the record that the actual lower. At 2.6 per cent., it is the lowest average increase increase in precept levied by Surrey police authority for per household since council tax was introduced by the 2009-10 is 4.89 per cent. That is below the 5 per cent. Conservatives in 1993. threshold. Our involvement with Surrey police authority started just over a year ago. One local authority and several Mr. Malik: Actually, it is above the threshold if taken police authorities, including Surrey, set excessive council as a percentage of the notional precept. It is 7.1 per tax increases in 2008-09. We designated Surrey for cent. capping, but after considering its challenge, decided not to cap it in-year. Instead, we set it a notional budget Mr. Wilshire: I am grateful to the Minister for giving requirement for that year, which was lower than the way. He said that Surrey police authority “was well budget requirement set by the authority. That meant aware” in October. He subsequently said that Surrey that the authority was allowed to retain its excessive police authority’s claim that it did not know something increases for 2008-09 and did not have to re-bill. Our until January was untrue. He has twice asserted that the action in 2008-09 limited Surrey’s scope for increases in information put out by Surrey police authority is incorrect. future financial years. We also gave it an opportunity to Will he send the proof of his claims to all who have avoid setting an excessive increase in 2009-10. Unfortunately, attended this debate? What was the authority told, by Surrey did not take that opportunity and has set an whom, on what date and was that in writing or by excessive increase for 2009-10. e-mail? Will he provide us with copies so that we can sort out who is telling the truth? Sir Paul Beresford: I have made it clear that during the daily discussions, the Department’s lawyers were Mr. Malik: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not contacted. Their reply made it quite clear that casting aspersions on my good word. “there is no requirement on the Surrey police authority to calculate notional level of Council Tax (based on the notional budget Mr. Wilshire: If I were allowed to, I would. requirement) 2008/09 and Surrey police authority will set their budget requirement and their precept for 2009/10…in the normal way”. Mr. Malik: I think that that is inappropriate. I accept the hon. Gentleman’s apology even though he has not There was no mention of the word “notional” until yet made it. 72 hours before the budget was set. From October 2008, the Department made it clear to the authority several times that any council tax capping Mr. Malik: I was going to deal with that point later, principle in 2009-10 would operate by reference to a but I will deal with it specifically now. It is clearly notional amount of council tax for 2008-09. Frankly, I untrue. [Interruption.] I am sure that hon. Members do not think that I can be any clearer. If the hon. want me to respond. As long ago as October 2008, Gentleman wants me to repeat that point, I can do so Surrey was well aware of the implications of its course for the next 15 minutes, but I do not think that he does. of action. It was also told about that on several occasions thereafter. Sarah Teather: Will the Minister give way? Of 15 authorities that have been set notional budget requirements, Surrey is the first that has gone on to set Mr. Malik: No I will not. I will continue. an excessive increase in the subsequent year. In 2009-10, the Government reiterated to all authorities that they Perhaps the authority needs to check its records more would not hesitate to take capping action against excessive closely. That is a message that Opposition Members can increases. We said explicitly that we would require authorities take back. to re-bill if necessary. In December 2008, the then Surrey’s estimate of the re-billing costs is £1.2million. Minister for Local Government, my right hon. Friend That looks somewhat on the high side compared with the Member for Wentworth (John Healey), wrote to all the costs incurred by other authorities. For example, local authorities to make that clear. last year Lincolnshire police authority estimated re-billing 205WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 206WH costs at about £1 million, whereas the actual cost was Hon. Members: So why are you capping? £380,000. We will have to wait to see the actual re-billing costs in Surrey. Mr. Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order.

Mr. Malins: Has the Minister been fully briefed on Mr. Malik: I will deal with that point. I know that the contents of my meeting with Lord West? If so, what hon. Members are anxious, and I am quite sure that is his reaction? they are being sincere and not politically vindictive, but if they allowed me to respond they might get answers to Mr. Malik: Having been in this job for five minutes, I some of their questions. apologise that that was not at the top of the priority list for my briefing this morning. I am sure that I will be The authority knew that if it was excessive in 2009-10, briefed on that in due course. The hon. Gentleman will it would be at risk of in-year capping and of being understand why I have not had such a briefing. required to re-bill. It also knew that its 2009-10 increases would be compared with notional levels of budget If we accept Surrey’s estimate for the re-billing costs requirement and council tax for 2008-09. Surrey knew and add it to the £1.6 million budget reduction that it is all that, but it went on to set an excessive increase. required to make due to capping, the total is £2.8 million.

Sir Paul Beresford: Will the Minister give way? Paul Holmes: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Malik: This will be the last time, because I need Mr. Malik: I will, but this will probably be the last to make progress. time, because I want to respond to the points that have been made. Sir Paul Beresford: The Minister still has quite a bit of the time that we left him. Paul Holmes: The Minister keeps referring to notional Rather than question Surrey, I questioned the billing budgets, but as was pointed out in Derbyshire’s judicial authority in my area. It said that the cost will be review application, there is no provision in legislation £4.65 per bill. I chose to ask that authority and not for the Government to set notional budgets. I know that Surrey because it is dealing with the matter. Surrey has said the same thing. He also keeps talking about excessive budgets, but the Government have admitted Mr. Malik: It is not for me, nor for anybody in this every year since 2006 that Derbyshire police has been Chamber, to tell the authority what it should do to live underfunded by £5 million, but the extra council tax within its cap. However, I note that its papers show that will raise only £1.6 million. How can that be excessive? it will have reserves of £9.4 million by the end of 2009-10. Mr. Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. I remind the Member that this debate is about Surrey, not Derbyshire. Sarah Teather: I thank the Minister for giving way. He said that police authorities were given notice that Mr. Malik: I am more than happy to respond to a they would have to act within a notional precept and debate on Derbyshire in future, but this is not it. that they had been given a firm view of what that precept would be. That is not true. Earlier this year, the Out of 421 authorities, including 37 police authorities, then Minister for Local Government said: Surrey is the only one that has ever set an excessive increase for two years in succession. The hon. Member “It would be a serious mistake for any local authority to assume that the principles I have announced today for this year for Mole Valley has had the privilege of serving in are in any way a guide to the approach or the levels I may set in government, so he knows that it is not about costs, but future years.”—[Official Report, 26 March 2009; Vol. 490, c. 465.] about principles. If 420 out of 421 billing and precepting authorities have managed to live within their means and Mr. Malik: As I have said, I shall give full details on be financially responsible, it would be ludicrous to make that issue in writing. an exception in any case. That would send out entirely The authority’s papers show that it will have reserves the wrong message and would set a detrimental precedent of £9.4 million by the end of 2009-10, of which £5.6 million that could heap up many problems in both the short is not earmarked. It remains a Government priority to and longer term. keep down the level of council tax increases, and Surrey I have heard a lot about Surrey being a fountain of police authority knew that. It also knew that if it set an wealth creation in the UK, and that it should therefore excessive increase in 2009-10, it would be at risk of benefit disproportionately through expenditure on it, in-year capping and of being required to re-bill. but the Government do not believe in redistribution based on the amount of wealth created in an area. Mr. Ian Taylor: I am very concerned about something that I think the Minister just said. For the record, again, Anne Milton: Will the Minister give way? the general reserves of Surrey police are £5.6 million, which is less than the 3 per cent. in Audit Commission Mr. Malik: I am sorry, but I am not going to give way, guidance, so raiding that would cause even more concern so hon. Members should please not bother. in any external audit of Surrey police. Surely, the Minister is not advocating that, is he? We believe that money and resources ought to go to where there is need, and the last thing that we want to Mr. Malik: I am not advocating anything. I am do is create a north-south divide such as that in the merely pointing out the facts. It is not my job or the job 1980s. of anyone in the House to manage the financial and operational affairs of any police authority. Anne Milton: Will the Minister give way? 207WH Council Tax Capping (Surrey)9 JUNE 2009 Council Tax Capping (Surrey) 208WH

Mr. Malik: I will not give way, I am afraid. their responsibility to stay within budget and make reasonable increases. That is common sense to everyone else. Mr. Malins: On a point of order, Mr. Weir. You know The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge that all Surrey MPs who were available to attend today (Mr. Hammond) made some arguments that I simply have attended, and that we have made a great number of did not find credible. There were some rather silly and points, none of which has yet been dealt with. Is it churlish accusations about petty political vindictiveness, proper for the Minister simply to say, with several but, as I have just explained, this has nothing to do with minutes to go, that he will not give way at all again? Is politics. Surrey is the only billing and precepting authority that a proper action for a Minister, or should he give out of 421 that has gone for excessive increases in two way? successive years. Sir Paul Beresford: I thank the Minister for giving Mr. Mike Weir (in the Chair): That is not a point of way in the last few moments. The one thing that we have order. It is not for the Chair to determine how the asked throughout is that there should be the opportunity, Minister responds to a debate. with the placing of the order, to designate the capping and set it against next year. That would save an enormous Mr. Malik: The hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) amount of money which the authority would have to has been here long enough to know that and has, find otherwise, whether from balances, with which I unfortunately, just eaten up even more of my time, would disagree, or in a precept or savings. Is the Minister leaving me less time to respond to his points. prepared to reconsider that and lay an order so that re-billing does not have to occur? I accept that much of Surrey police authority is probably excellent, as the hon. Member for Guildford Mr. Malik: At this stage, I am not prepared to (Anne Milton) has said, but, sadly, its financial reconsider, because I think it would be wrong and arrangements do not fall into that category. I take her would set a wholly inappropriate precedent. Surrey had point about the Street Angels project, which seems a the opportunity to look at things again last year, but it worthy initiative, and I wish it well. chose to ignore that and now it is paying the price. Even though it knew what the price would be, it is complaining. The hon. Member for Woking spoke at some length That is completely inappropriate, and it would be a about terrorism and counter-terrorism, for which there wrong precedent to set. For that reason, I am pretty is a separate budget, which has more than doubled in sure that I will not reconsider this matter in the way that the past few years because the Government have recognised the hon. Gentleman would like. some of the challenges that the country faces in that regard. We will not have the final word today, however, as the capping of the authority in 2009-10 is subject to the Much has been said about common sense, but there is approval of the House of Commons. A draft order to no more basic common sense than living within one’s cap it is being laid tomorrow, and we expect the House means. Why can 420 other authorities accept and live to debate the order at the end of this month or at the within their means, while Surrey cannot? Every one of beginning of July. Hon. Members are right to vent their the 36 other police authorities could have come here spleen about this, but they ought to vent it at Surrey and made many of the same arguments, but they have police authority for not managing its books in the way not. I have heard today that they recognise the challenges in which 420 other billing and precepting authorities that budgets impose on them, but they also recognise have been doing. 209WH 9 JUNE 2009 Extreme Solar Events 210WH

Extreme Solar Events earth. Coronal mass ejections travel at varying speeds depending on how big and concentrated they are, but 12.30 pm they can travel up to 1,500 miles a second. They can travel at a considerable speed and they seem to happen Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): On every 11, 12 or 13 years. 23 April 2008, the Select Committee on Innovation, The largest such event was known as the Carrington Universities, Science and Skills published its report on event, which took place just under 150 years ago. The science budget allocations. During the course of the size of that event has since been studied and it turned Committee’s inquiry, we received a number of out to be four times larger than any of the recently representations from different scientific bodies about measured solar weather events. Richard Carrington was the decision of the Science and Technology Facilities a British scientist and astronomer who first worked out Council to reduce the budget allocation for ground-based the relationship between sun spot activity and the magnetic solar terrestrial physics to zero. We received evidence phenomena in the earth’s atmosphere, such as the aurora from UK Solar Physics research and from the British borealis, the aurora australis and St. Elmo’s fire, which Academy, but the clearest evidence that we received was sailors have known about for years. Richard Carrington from the British Antarctic Survey. worked out that such atmospheric magnetic events were I shall quote two parts of the British Antarctic Survey’s related to what was happening on the sun. evidence, in which it makes a case for not cutting the budget in relation to solar terrestrial physics: The 2003 event—and to a lesser extent the 1989 “Sun-climate links: researchers are becoming increasingly aware event, in which 9 million people in Quebec lost power— of links between solar variability and the earth’s climate. It is meant that the body that works with the national academies critical that we establish the relative importance of solar-induced in the States sat down and discussed what was happening. effects on climate change so we can predict more accurately the I know that anyone who talks about space, cataclysmic man-made influences on climate. The InterGovernmental Panel events and potential disasters is not likely to be taken on Climate Change reported that the current level of understanding too seriously, but I hope that my hon. Friend the is very low and Sir Keith O’Nions in recent evidence to the Public Minister will take the matter seriously. If there were a Accounts committee about the Halley research station in Antarctica large solar storm of the strength of Carrington—there asserted that the ‘physics of the upper atmosphere there will be a very key part of climate change’.” is no reason to believe that the event of 150 years ago was as large as space storms can get—there would not It is therefore an odd decision to cut the budget. only be serious consequences for western society, but all More importantly for the case I want to make, the societies that are dependent on current technologies. British Antarctic Survey stated: “Space weather: solar variability has a very strong influence on There are particular concerns that the magnetic impact the near-earth space environment, including large transient increases of these storms would cause induced currents in step-up in the amount of radiation there. Such space weather events are and step-down transformers. Direct current would be frequent but intermittent and of varying severity, the prediction induced in systems that are meant to deal with alternating of which is an ultimate goal of STP research. They can lead to currents, which would saturate the magnets at the core temporary loss of service from satellites, or even the complete loss of the transformers and melt the copper wire. Such a of satellites worth about $300 million each. More than half of all proposition is not theoretical; it is what happened in space insurance is done through London and is worth $500 million per year.” Quebec in 1989. The current systems are more vulnerable because, for greater efficiency, modern grids operate at The Committee went on to make a case for fewer cuts ever higher voltages—for example, the Chinese have to the budget. The work had not been done, so we could recently put in voltage systems that operate at 1,000 V. not have known that a month later—on May 22-23—a meeting was held under the auspices of the Space When the relevant bodies looked at the situation, Studies Board about the societal and economic impacts they worked out what the impact would be in north of severe space weather events. Such work comes under America and China. They also said that the inter- the national academies in the United States, which had dependability of the grids in Europe meant that we been called together to discuss the impact of severe could have a serious catastrophe in Europe. For north space weather. I have heard that National Aeronautics America, they estimated that within 90 seconds of one and Space Administration funded the project because it of these events, 300 key transformers could go down, was concerned about the matter. NASA was particularly affecting 130 million people. The impacts are obvious to concerned about what became known as the Halloween anyone who thinks about it: water that needs to be storms, which took place in autumn 2003, when there pumped up multi-storey buildings would stop; trains was a large space storm and transformer problems in would stop; the underground would stop; and, because Sweden. Commercial airline flights were moved away we live in a just-in-time society, a lot of industry would from the Arctic region and the level at which commercial stop. It would be very difficult after a few days to get airlines were flying had to be lowered. The advanced petrol to petrol stations, the back-up generators for earth observing satellite II has not been heard of since; hospitals could fail, and we would be in a serious it was damaged beyond repair after that space storm. situation. At this point, it is worth discussing the definition of There have been attempts to estimate the number of space storms, what the likely future impacts might be back-up transformers, but there are very few. In any and how that should be reflected in the Government’s case, there are not many crews available to put in new response. Space storms are associated with sun spots—a transformers. Nuclear power stations would shut down cooling of the sun’s surface—which are caused by bursts if the grid went down. The Committee estimated that a of magnetic knots from the interior of the sun. Associated Carrington-type event would have 10 times the impact with space storms are coronal mass ejections, which are on the United States of the Katrina hurricane a few essentially billions of tonnes of plasma composed of years ago and would cost that country $2 trillion. That protons and electrons that hurl very quickly towards the is a large figure, and consequences could be dire. 211WH Extreme Solar Events9 JUNE 2009 Extreme Solar Events 212WH

[Graham Stringer] response to my hon. Friend’s recent parliamentary question on the need to protect the national grid from extreme When I tabled a parliamentary question, I was told solar weather. that the Government were aware of the matter and that A recent article in the New Scientist raised concerns contingency plans were in place. I would be interested that a repeat of the Carrington event to which my hon. to know the answer to a question about timing. Again, Friend referred could have a major impact on national this is covered in the National Academies report. Much electricity transmission networks. It prompted a letter of the information about the timing and prediction of from a concerned constituent of the hon. Member for such events comes from the ACE satellite—the advanced Woodspring (Dr. Fox) and a debate in both the Scottish composition explorer—which can get information to us Executive and the Welsh Assembly. I therefore very in about 15 to 30 minutes. However, if the plasma were much welcome this opportunity to discuss the issue and travelling as fast as it is estimated that it travelled to explain the Government’s view on the risk that we 150 years ago, it would get here in 12 minutes, so the believe is posed to the UK’s electricity network, and the advanced warning would not arrive in time. The other measures that are in place to monitor events and mitigate satellite that can provide such information—it was damaged the risks. in the last solar storm in 2003—is SOHO, or the solar National Grid Electricity Transmission owns the England and heliospheric observatory. It, too, would have difficulty and Wales electricity transmission system, and Scottish getting the information to us in time. Power Transmission Ltd and Scottish Hydro Electric There have to be particular circumstances for a each own part of the transmission system in Scotland. Carrington event to happen. Solar winds and ejections National Grid also has responsibility for overseeing of plasma happen from time to time, but the most and managing the flow of electricity across the whole of difficult events involve plasma directed straight at the the Great Britain transmission network. My Department earth. In 2003, the largest ejection just missed the earth. maintains close contact with those companies on all The plasma has to be travelling very quickly, it has to be network resilience issues. dense and intense, and finally—this is quite important—its As my hon. Friend said, satellites are capable of polarity has to be the opposite of the earth’s polarity. If giving several hours’ warning that a major solar storm it is the same, it just slips past the earth. It is like the has occurred on the sun, and about 30 minutes’ warning difference between a knife going through water and an that the subsequent discharge could impact on the explosion in water. If plasma with an opposite polarity earth. The information is available in real time to National were to hit the earth’s atmosphere, it would cause many Grid, which has procedures in place that set out the problems. actions that would be taken should such an alert be received. Given that there is no evidence that the current events There is also an international research programme to are as large as they could get, and given the estimates improve understanding of the potential impact of solar that a large event could have serious consequences, I storms. It is led by the Electric Power Research Institute have two or three questions to ask the Minister. First, based in the USA, to which my hon. Friend referred, was it wise to cut the money going to ground-based and National Grid is a partner in that research. The solar-terrestrial physics, when one of the objectives is to programme monitors the ongoing low-level solar storms understand the signs better and to predict events? Secondly, that are detected from time to time by satellites and does the Minister agree with the National Academies correlates them with measurements of induced currents estimates that the fastest of such storms are not predictable, on the ground as detected by monitors placed around and, therefore, that it would not be possible to take the globe. In that way, we are gaining experience in generators out of the system to protect them, and that interpreting early warning signs of solar storms. we are vulnerable? The consequent question is, if something My hon. Friend asked whether it was wise to cut the like that were to happen, are contingency plans in place budget. I shall write to my relevant opposite numbers for transformers and emergency services that go beyond and make an inquiry further to his inquiry. I am not in a the normal emergency plans that we have in place in position to make a judgment, but I would say to him this country? I look forward with interest to my hon. that, as in so many such matters, the international Friend’s reply. scientific endeavour is most important. As the UK Government, and through the partnership of National Grid with the US institute, we are able to obtain up-to- 12.44 pm the-minute, appropriate science. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Graham Stringer: I am grateful for that response, and Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): I congratulate my I realise that this debate covers several departmental hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham responsibilities. Would my hon. Friend make the point Stringer) on securing this important debate and on to her colleagues that while international collaboration giving us an interesting presentation. I am sure that this may deal with some of the details and with development matter is not well known to most people; none the less, of policy, there is a real economic importance to work as he said, it is extremely important. going on in this country because of the insurance Before I turn to the specific issue of solar storms, I industry in the City? would like to thank my hon. Friend for the wider interest that he has demonstrated in this matter. I am Joan Ruddock: I will certainly look at that and make aware of his work on the Innovation, Universities, the specific connection that my hon. Friend just made. Science and Skills Committee which, as he pointed out, The procedures that National Grid and other utilities has considered funding for research. In the course of have in place for reacting to a major solar flare include my reply, I shall also expand on the answer provided in steps to increase the generation reserves that can improve 213WH Extreme Solar Events9 JUNE 2009 Extreme Solar Events 214WH voltage levels across the network, and possibly switching could occur is therefore small and well within the scope out certain transformers at the edge of the network if of the resilience and contingency planning that we have sufficient information is available to give confidence in in place to deal with terrestrial weather events and other the route that the electrical currents caused by the solar risks that could impact on the electricity networks. storm will take. The main risk to electricity supplies during a severe My hon. Friend asked whether I agree that the fastest solar storm is that one or more transformers at the edge storms would not predictable. It is a fact that, if something of the network could be damaged, which would cause a occurs at a speed that we are not able to pick up in the localised loss of supply if the capacity of remaining networks that already exist—in the satellite messaging transformers could not deliver all the demand for electricity systems that we depend on—we would be taken by in that area. Generally, a damaged transformer can be surprise. Generally, however, through satellites, we are replaced within about two weeks and it is often possible certainly getting information within a reasonable time to take other measures to restore supplies much quicker frame. All transformers connected to the national grid than that, including an early return to service of equipment transmission network since 1999 have been designed to being maintained or the re-routing of supplies from a eliminate the risk of damage presented by solar storms. different location. That answers my hon. Friend’s question about more modern facilities with higher voltages. Protection has The highest risk areas of the UK are the west country been built in and there is an acceptance that, as voltages and parts of Scotland, due to the granite rock formation have increased, there is a need to introduce appropriate of the ground in those parts. That type of ground is safeguards. particularly susceptible to electrical currents, so the geomagnetically induced currents caused by the solar Of course, a wide range of incidents and emergencies storm are therefore more likely to find a path through might have an impact on all or significant parts of the the electricity networks. That is more likely to happen UK. The national risk register, published in March because of the terrain in those areas. 2008, sets out the Government’s assessment of the likelihood and impact of a range of different risks that A severe solar storm can also depress the overall may directly affect the UK over the next five years, voltage of the transmission network by a few per cent. including accidents such as major fires or technical However, that is unlikely to cause damage or disruption failures, natural events, including severe weather and and defence measures can be taken to reduce the risk flooding, and particularly the threat of international even further. For example, National Grid may be able terrorism. Comprehensive plans are in place for handling to increase the number of electricity generators on the both a complete national outage of electricity supplies, network to help support the voltage. which, of course, has never occurred, I am glad to say, and regional outages. Although solar storms are not These impacts are comparable to the risks faced by included specifically in the national risk register, the the transmission networks in day-to-day operation, for resilience measures in place to deal with the risks I have example, by the breakdown of generation or transmission mentioned would be equally applicable to the effects of equipment or through the terrestrial weather events solar storms. that I mentioned earlier. The ability to cope with such events and minimise their impact is built into the design As my hon. Friend said, solar storms approximately of the networks, operating procedures and the resilience follow an 11-year cycle and are thought to be related to measures available to the grid operators. Emergency changes in the sun’s magnetic field. We are in a quiet planning arrangements are also in place to cover significant phase at present and the latest information from NASA and unexpected events. is that the next peak is likely during mid 2013. My hon. Friend hoped that I would take this matter seriously. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this Indeed, the Government do take it seriously. Solar important issue. The Department of Energy and Climate storms are known to be capable of damaging electricity Change maintains its capacity to lead the response to transmission networks on earth and this has happened, energy emergencies and incidents. That means planning, as he said, in both Canada and Sweden. The most training and exercising alongside those likely to have a significant event occurred on 13 March 1989, when a stake in a potential crisis. That includes the energy severe storm caused the collapse of the Canadian Hydro- sector, together with local, regional and devolved Québec power grid in a matter of seconds. As he said, Administrations, as well as other Departments and millions of people were left without power for nine agencies whose interests may be affected and whose hours, with significant economic loss. In the UK, there assistance would be needed. have been at least four peak cycles of solar storms Although there are clearly uncertainties about the during the existence of modern high-voltage transmission impact of a major solar storm, experience to date networks. Generally, these have caused no problems, indicates that the UK is not unduly exposed to such although in 1989 two transformers suffered damage: events and, in the worst case, it could be expected that one in East Anglia and one in the west country. However, any interruption to electricity supplies would be localised in both cases, the impact was limited to the locality. and of relatively short duration. However, as my hon. I am glad to say that the UK is not at a particularly Friend implied, there is no absolute certainty in this high risk of disruption from solar storms, as we are a regard. There is clearly a need for continuing scientific good way south of the magnetic north pole. The history research. We cannot be certain: although we have seen of extreme solar weather events and the science indicate events of a certain nature and events for which we could that the risk of a major impact in the UK is very low. make reasonable predictions, and although we have in Although the UK may not be completely immune from place a significant range of measures that are capable of the impact of solar storms, it is extremely unlikely that coping with and, to some degree, mitigating the potential we would suffer widespread damage. The damage that effects on our electricity networks, none the less we need 215WH Extreme Solar Events 9 JUNE 2009 216WH

[Joan Ruddock] Home Education to keep such matters under review. The Department needs to be constantly appraised of, and must follow, 1pm developments in science. Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) The resilience and defensive measures that network (Con): I recognise that the Minister is making her debut owners take to protect against terrestrial weather events here, and that this matter is work in progress for her are equally applicable in dealing with solar storms. Department. I contacted her civil servants, and made it Where specific measures are appropriate, such as the clear that the bulk of this half-hour debate will be taken development of reliable early warning systems, work is up by my contribution, but that my hon. Friend the in hand to improve our understanding. I am confident Member for St. Albans (Anne Main) and the hon. that we can, as a country, cope within the range of what Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) may wish to we know has happened in other parts of world and in intervene. this country, and which may happen here in future. In the middle of January, the Department for Children, Some hon. Members may be concerned about the Schools and Families launched an independent review Olympics—a major event in this country—which could of home education by Graham Badman, the former conceivably be affected if such a storm were to happen, director of children and educational services at Kent but I say to my hon. Friend, although he did not raise county council. Mr. Badman has been charged with this issue, that we have considered that and we expect investigating the current system for supporting and that all the measures that I have described to be in place monitoring home education, and was asked to consider and to be appropriate. We have contingency arrangements how any concerns about children’s safety, welfare or for that major national event. However, we are not education are dealt with. From the outset, the Government complacent on these issues. Once again, I thank my have emphasised that they have no plans to change hon. Friend for raising an important matter in this parents’ well-established right to educate their children debate. at home. All that sounds harmless enough, and in light of recent child abuse cases it is little wonder that the Government want to safeguard children who are not visibly in the system, and to keep tabs on parents. It is right for any Government to want evidence that each and every child receives a suitable education, and genuine home educators have nothing to fear. However, the message coming loud and clear from home educators in my constituency is that that hype should not be believed. Their worry is that the Government are manipulating current anxiety about child abuse to intrude further into home education when they have little legal right to do so. The latest review will mark the third such consultation pertaining to home education over the past four years. Any action stemming from it could affect the balance of power between civil liberties and state intervention, whether one is innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent, and whether the state or parents have ultimate responsibility for their children. The ability to be free from an all-knowing, all-seeing state’s ideas of education, welfare and standards forms the fundamental appeal for many of those who choose home education for their children. Any attempt to alter what is very much a matter of balance would undermine the entire ethos of education. I became interested, involved and engaged in home education some months back when I met two articulate and passionate local mothers in the Pimlico area of my constituency who had decided to educate their children themselves. One made that decision as a result of her son’s unhappy and unproductive first 18 months in the state school sector. The other had seen home education work brilliantly for family friends, and made the positive decision to take on that task for her daughters. The matter is a Cinderella area, and I approached my meeting with those two mothers with some standard misconceptions that a home education might produce an unsocialised, precocious child who is unable to interact with their peers and perhaps shielded from all negative experiences. However, the more I listened to the two mothers, the 217WH Home Education9 JUNE 2009 Home Education 218WH more impressed and excited I was by their passion and Government, both local and national, are uncomfortable enthusiasm for home education. Each was able to provide about parents providing education that cannot be an individualised learning experience tailored to the monitored, tested or accounted for. There is a real fear child’s abilities and interests. Far from having an isolated that the Government, under the banner of child protection, and insulated existence, the children of those two mothers will try to interfere with the freedom of choice of home frequently attended classes with other home schoolers, educators. I represent a big flagship Conservative borough, interacted with children of different ages and abilities, but the same probably applies to the local education and experienced a wide range of activities from practising authority, which is equally to blame. I am not making a judo and learning Japanese to visiting galleries and partisan party political point. The freedom that is so museums during quieter times of day. fiercely guarded by the majority of home educators and their choice to pursue that path is due to a fundamental Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): My hon. Friend’s rejection of the state’s values, and lack of faith in experience is replicated in my constituency where there the state’s ability to provide a suitable education for are 60 home schoolers. That has come to the forefront their child. in my constituency because some parents are deeply Home education has been under constant scrutiny unhappy about the school that they have been allocated since the Children Act 2004, which enshrined the and are investigating home schooling. It is a resourceful Government’s Every Child Matters agenda in legislation. way of proceeding with a valuable education that is Draft guidelines clarifying the rights and responsibilities tailored to their child’s needs. I echo what my hon. for home educators and local authorities were drafted Friend is saying. When one looks into the matter, one and debated in early 2005, shelved for two years, and sees that it is a heartening way forward and can be finally published in autumn 2007. That consultation complementary to the state system. caused great anxiety among home educators because it was feared that the Government would try to introduce Mr. Field: I thank my hon. Friend for her observations. inspections and to control the curricula. Eventually, I stress that the notion of a homogenous group of home guidelines issued after the review maintained the previous educators with a single mind could not be further from position, and most families were incredibly relieved. the truth. Diversity is one of the most important aspects Meanwhile the Education and Inspections Act 2006 of the home education ideal and the education that is introduced new duties for identifying children who were provided for those children who have the great benefit missing education. Yet there was another consultation of it. A home-educated child will naturally have a close in autumn last year on children missing education, and relationship with their parents, whose lives are often all home educators will eventually be tracked down as a enriched by learning new skills and knowledge alongside result of the ContactPoint database. Local authorities their children. will be required to determine I have discovered that in my constituency, in the heart “as far as they are able” of the biggest city in our nation, there is an active whether a child is receiving what a local education community of home educators who share classes and bureaucrat deems is a suitable education. Before that, co-ordinate their knowledge base. A nationwide lively local authorities were required only to make a note of online community shares best practice and experience, any families whom they found home educating. and I have learned about that from the inundation of All this casts doubt on the Government’s motives information to my private office during the past three or with the Badman review, particularly as the consultation four days since it became known that I was having this response time has been cut from 12 weeks to four. Why debate today. I apologise that I will not be able to make have they not given the latest guidance a chance to work all the points that were made to me by interested through? Could it be that the consultation is a knee-jerk parents. Many home educators choose not to engage reaction from a Government who are fearful of any with other families, and the appeal of home education further culpability in the face of some quite deep failings is that individual educational experience can be tailored in the care system? to best suit the child and the family. Home educators with whom I have engaged conclude All that comes at no cost to taxpayers because the that either the Government have no faith in the previous vast majority of home educators shoulder not only the reviews or this is a superficial exercise to try to allay teaching burden, but the financial one. Despite that, the public concern—a bid to make good other failures with choice for many home educators is often not the ability frenetic activity—which will result in few or no changes. to afford such a route—many probably struggle to some Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): The hon. Gentleman extent—but stems from lack of faith in what the state is making a very strong case. He says that there may be sector provides, particularly when the basis of that public concern about this sector, but having visited a provision is “take it or leave it”. That is a problem not group of home educators in Penzance in my constituency, so much in my constituency, but in other parts of it was clear to me that in many cases these people have London where many parents are dissatisfied when only chosen this option precisely because they want to escape their third, fourth or fifth choice of school is available abuse and bullying in schools. Some choose it for other for their children. Home educators come from a wide reasons. In a letter dated 19 June 2007 that I received variety of backgrounds, and many find that home schooling from the then Under-Secretary in the Department, Lord is the most workable or perhaps the only alternative to Adonis, he made it clear that under section 47 of the expensive school fees or an unattractive local state Children Act 1989 the powers already exist to intervene school. in cases in which the state believes that a child may Unfortunately, both the mothers to whom I spoke at suffer harm. I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The state length were deeply concerned about the future of home already has the powers to intervene where it suspects education. There is long-standing suspicion that the that harm may be going on. 219WH Home Education9 JUNE 2009 Home Education 220WH

Mr. Field: That is a very valid point and I am glad Unfortunately, local authorities have become increasingly that the hon. Gentleman has brought it up. There is confused about what is law and what is merely Government obviously passion about this issue not just in big cities guidance. I believe that much of the confusion arises or suburban conurbations, but in the depths of the far from the Government’s Every Child Matters agenda, in south-west of England. It is probably worth stressing—I which issues of education, health and welfare have been appreciate that in many ways the hon. Gentleman made conflated. Home educators are deeply concerned about this point—that the issue is not simply children who are that. The Every Child Matters outcomes are to be being bullied dropping out of the system. It is much healthy, to stay safe, to enjoy and achieve, to make a wider. Home education is a choice of parents for the positive contribution and to achieve economic well-being. good of the children, and one should always trust the The Government have naturally found it rather difficult instincts of parents rather than the instincts of a bureaucrat to ensure that that agenda is being applied by parents in in the local education department or of the state as a choosing to home educate a child. whole. I am talking about parents’ instincts about what On launching the latest consultation, the Government is best for their children. One interesting point, which suggested that local authorities and children’s organisations has been very evident, is that home education is not had expressed concern about the current system’s ability necessarily something that all the children in a family adequately to support and monitor the education, safety will go through. Parents may make the choice that and well-being of home-educated children. That fits particular children are best suited to home education with a growing body of evidence from home educators and that their other children will go down a much more that they are more regularly encountering social workers, conventional path by going to school. who turn up, often unannounced, to make demands: People unfamiliar with the ethos behind home education evidence of class timetables, written work and so on. In might question the defensiveness of some who home considering forced marriage, the Select Committee on educate: “Why not let the Government in if there is Home Affairs has also raised the fear that home schooling nothing to hide?” Of course, that refrain has seen many might be used as a cover for something more sinister. other freedoms cast aside over the past decade or so. However, home educators vigorously reject the attempts Independence to pursue the choice that is right for a by the Government to mix concerns about child welfare particular child at the speed at which that child wishes into any review of home education. They believe that to learn is the cornerstone of home education. Home the Government’s concerns in that regard are in line educators opted out of the system by and large because with the misunderstanding that a child is safe when seen they lacked confidence in the idea of a very strict and once or twice by a local authority. Furthermore, home regulated state system. That is something that has been educators feel that once the proposition has been made apparent for quite some time—20 or 30 years. I am that home education can be used as a cover for child talking about the rise of the national curriculum and abuse, the onus of proof has shifted on to them to prove ever more testing, which are, understandably, concerns. their innocence. That is not in any way desirable. So sacred is the independence of home educators that Many home educators believe that the mixing of for a long time they have remained under the radar. agendas stems partly from a fundamental misunderstanding However, they now feel compelled to put forward their of how they school their children. Much of the Government case, as they have little faith in the review process that is involvement in this area has linked work on uncovering currently being undertaken—I think that the Badman hidden children to home education. In reality, very few report will come through in the next few weeks—and home-educated children are hidden, as much of their what it is trying to achieve. Indeed, very few believe that education is conducted outside the home. Home-educated it will produce anything but the “right” result in terms children are normally seen by a wide range of adults of what the Government now seek. As one home educator and children: education officers at museums, other home told me, “They keep asking us for our views and when educators, private tutors and normal contacts such as we don’t give them the right answer they come back and GPs, librarians and youth group leaders. ask again.” It seems to be a function of Government all I am not diminishing in any way legitimate concerns too often—not just in the education sphere but beyond— about child abuse. I have a great deal of sympathy for that they look at individuals who are not doing the the Government in the very difficult task that they face conventional, standard thing. I therefore want to ensure in preventing cases similar to the appalling ones that we that home educators’ concerns are firmly put on the have heard about recently. However, we must be clear. record. Local authorities, as the hon. Member for St. Ives It is important to clarify the law when it comes to pointed out, already have powers to get involved in a education. The Human Rights Act 1998 states: family when there are concerns about abuse. Admittedly “In the exercise of any functions which it assumes in relation to the processes involved can sometimes fail, but that is education and to teaching, the State shall respect the right of not the fault of the home educator. It is for Government parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with to re-examine social services procedures if there are their own religious and philosophical convictions.” concerns. The Government have a right only to ensure that the The uncomfortable truth is that no amount of legislation education that the state, predominantly via local will ever remove all risk. The task of Government is to government, provides is of good quality, and the authorities balance the rights of all individuals. Given that home- can intervene only when people are seen to be breaking educated children are not proven to be at any greater the law. It is for the same reason that police do not risk, it is inappropriate to throw away the liberty of routinely visit people’s homes to check for stolen property. parents, even in part, to choose how to educate their Therefore, there is an overwhelming case that home child, particularly when it is equally possible for a child educators should be allowed to get on with their lives to go to school and be abused when they return home or without undue state interference. for children in the care of the state to suffer abuse. 221WH Home Education9 JUNE 2009 Home Education 222WH

With regard to the other aspirations in the Every the Every Child Matters objectives, rather than continue Child Matters agenda, home educators contend that to pursue those who put their faith, time and passion they are far more likely to fulfil the Government’s into home education. objectives than the state system. Home education is personalised, child led and free from some of the detrimental effects of curriculum constraints, constant testing and 1.22 pm standardisation. Home-schooled children can learn The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, autonomously, often spend more time on physical activity Schools and Families (Ms Diana R. Johnson): I thank and can learn in an environment free from bullying and the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster peer pressure. Many studies have shown that, regardless (Mr. Field) for his understanding remarks about where of socio-economic background, home-educated children we are with the review and about my position. I congratulate consistently outperform school-educated children. him on securing this short debate and I thank other The Government, however, regularly fail to fulfil the hon. Members for their contributions. Every Child Matters objectives. The number of pupils The Government are committed to building a world-class achieving grades A* to C in GCSE exams remains only education system for our children. That system must be 57.1 per cent. Well-being surveys point to mental built on the highest standards of teaching, real choice dissatisfaction in many children in our country. As the for parents and pupils, and rigorous accountability. Minister will be aware, the UK was ranked in the Home education is a vital part of that system. This bottom third for five of the six dimensions in UNICEF’s debate draws out two important themes, which must be report on childhood in industrialised countries only held in balance. One is the right of parents to decide last year. what is best for their children in their education and Against such a background, it is perhaps not surprising development. The other is the right of every child to that in Essex, for example, even the county council, as receive a high standard of education in a safe, secure the education authority, accepts that home education environment. can be a safer bet. Six families there will be paid a little At present, in England, we have a system that takes over £10,000 each to educate their children at home great account of the rights of parents to choose an because the parents have refused to send their children education for their child that to what are universally regarded as failing schools in “is in conformity with their own religious and philosophical Clacton-on-Sea. convictions”. I could say quite a lot more, and I appreciate that I However, every child has the fundamental right to have taken rather more time than I have given the receive an education, and we need to ensure that that Minister. That is simply because we are waiting for the important human right is delivered for every child in the Badman review, and it would be invidious to expect her land, even in those rare cases where their parents’ to half-guess what it will say or to announce anything convictions conflict with their right to be educated. that might prejudge it. I am sure that we will return to many of these issues once the review is in place and the Mr. Mark Field: What convictions would conflict ever-vigilant community of home educators has its say with the right to education? Would it be any convictions, on some of the proposals in the review. or do the Government see specific convictions as It is difficult firmly to say what, if anything, home problematic? educators want from the Government. By definition, the community is very diverse, and it is impossible for Ms Johnson: It would be rather extreme convictions. every home-educating parent to speak with one voice; It would be a very small number of parents who did not indeed, it is rather desirable that they have no wish to do want their children to be educated. It would be a very so. However, most in the community simply wish to extreme belief or philosophy that made them follow defend their independence, and they reject any attempt that path, and the state would, rightly, have to take by national or local government to impose the state’s a view. values on them and their children. We must also ensure that children have the opportunity With one review after another in recent years, home freely to express their views about the education that educators are frustrated, and the majority feel that the they receive, in line with the United Nations convention Government are incapable of trusting parents to do the on the rights of the child. That is a difficult balancing best for their children. Yes, parents do fail sometimes, act, and Graham Badman’s review is considering it but so, too, do the Government. We cannot prevent all carefully. There can be no question but that we need to cases in which a child is abused or not given a decent ensure that every child receives a good and safe education, education; indeed, such cases happen just as often—in and the hon. Gentleman highlighted that in much of fact, rather more often—when the state is involved. It is his speech. for Governments to assess risk and to ask which areas Let me turn now to the benefits of home education. warrant more attention. Home education is a well-established part of our education Increased intervention makes little financial sense system. Where it works, and where it is the best option and has the potential to divert resources from truly for a child, there are great benefits. It is the ultimate vulnerable children. It also further infringes the rights form of personalised learning, with provision tailored of parents to make the best decisions for their children. to a child’s specific needs and with a real opportunity Current legislation is perfectly adequate, but poorly for the child’s views and voice to be heard. It also understood. The Government must guard parents’ sacred demonstrates real engagement by parents in their child’s right to educate their children, while vigorously tightening learning, which is something that we are trying to the current system of child welfare. After that, the encourage more consistently across the national picture, Government should look at their own ability to fulfil whatever educational setting children are in. Furthermore, 223WH Home Education9 JUNE 2009 Home Education 224WH

[Ms Diana R. Johnson] Graham Badman’s review of home education was set up for a number of reasons. It is looking at the barriers the sense of community that the hon. Gentleman describes to local authorities and other public agencies safeguarding between home educators in his constituency is something home-educated children, as well as at ensuring that that we want to see in other educational provision, with their safety, well-being and broader development are partnerships between providers, the sharing of resources nurtured along with their academic achievement. It is in communities and the maximising of the opportunities also looking at the extent to which home education available to young people. might be being used as a cover for child abuse, at The vast majority of home educators do an excellent whether local authorities are providing the right support job, and the examples that the hon. Gentleman and the to home-educating families and at whether any changes hon. Member for St. Albans (Anne Main) cite from are needed to the processes for monitoring the standard their constituencies are clearly testament to that. Let me of home education. be clear from the outset that the Government recognise In November 2007, we issued guidance on home the valuable contribution made by home education, and education to local authorities, but clarity about roles we certainly do not seek to abolish it. and responsibilities has still not been achieved. The On the review, the hon. Member for Cities of London responses from home educators and local authorities to and Westminster is wrong to say that home education the consultation on the guidance only underlined the has been consistently under scrutiny since 2004. We first polarised views on this matter. It is clear that further issued guidance on the issue in 2007, clarifying the role clarity is needed. The underpinning principles behind and obligations of parents and local authorities. The the criteria for the review are therefore not sinister. guidance brought together the statutory requirements They are sensible and simple. They are intended to and the roles and obligations of parents and local ensure that everybody involved in home education—local authorities, as well as the Department’s view on how government, central Government and parents—is clear those should be interpreted in practice. There were no about their responsibilities and that there are clear lines new requirements, and local authorities and home educators of accountability. They are also intended to achieve told us that it was helpful to bring everything together greater national consistency in providing suitable full-time in one place so that everyone involved in home education education for all children and to ensure that, where could refer to it. there are problems, safeguards are in place to detect them and to allow us to intervene quickly. The duty to identify children who are missing education, which was introduced by the Education and Inspections Graham Badman wanted to ensure that he took Act 2006, was not a duty to identify home educators. Its account of all the evidence that could be gathered, and purpose was far broader: to identify children who are that is why he made a public call for evidence. Reference receiving no education at all. Children who are home was made to the 12-week consultation period being educated will inevitably be identified where they are not shortened to four weeks, but we are talking about a known to local authorities, but provided that they receive review, not a formal Government consultation. That is a suitable education, there is no reason why the new why there is a little uncertainty about the 12-week duty should have any impact on them or their parents. I period. Home education is a vital part of the education think that the hon. Gentleman accepts that we need to system. The review is— do everything we can to ensure that children do not go missing from the education system. I hope that he will support our efforts to ensure that all children attend Mr. Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. I am afraid that school regularly or receive a good-quality home education. we have come to the end of the time for the debate. 225WH 9 JUNE 2009 Abu Musa and the Greater and 226WH Lesser Tunbs Abu Musa and the Greater and Lesser fifth of the world’s oil supplies pass through the straits Tunbs of Hormuz. About 15 million barrels per day, equivalent to Europe’s daily consumption, pass through the mouth of the Gulf in tankers that must slow down to navigate 1.30 pm a hairpin turn in waters 35 miles wide at the straits’ Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): I congratulate my narrowest point. In addition, a number of the Gulf’s hon. Friend the Minister on his appointment, which is offshore oil and gas fields are located in the vicinity. richly deserved. I was rather surprised myself this morning In the early to mid-18th century, the three islands when my office told me that the man from No. 10 had were used on a seasonal basis by Arab tribes dependent been on the phone. In fact it was the man from No. 10 in on, and loyal to, the Qawasin, a clan based in Ras a particular road in my constituency, who wanted to al-Khaimah. The islands were a source of fresh water talk to me about his long-standing drainage problems. and refuge from bad weather and political trouble—a The idea for this debate originated in parliamentary sort of Chequers in the Gulf, really. The Abu Musa discussions I chaired earlier this year, under the banner island is only 12 sq km. Abu Musa is the name of both a of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, with a visiting delegation town and an island. It has a population of around 500, from the United Arab Emirates. I am delighted that the and is notable for its golden sandy beaches. The nearby hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) Greater and Lesser Tunbs derive their title from the is present today, because he took a big part in the word “Tunb”, which is an Arab word meaning a long discussions, which lasted two or three hours and were rope used to erect a tent. The Greater Tunb has a very fruitful. Subsequently I received an invitation from surface area of 10 sq km and is known for its red soil. the Speaker of the Federal National Council to visit the The Lesser Tunb has a surface area of 2 sq km and is United Arab Emirates and have further discussions. My uninhabitable. accommodation was paid for during that visit by the Mashreq bank and I have made the necessary declarations There is, inevitably, a complex story to be told in the in the Register of Members’ Interests. region, but in essence it appears that successive UK Governments unequivocally endorsed the claims of Sharjah During those parliamentary discussions, we ranged and Ras al-Khaimah to Abu Musa and the two Tunbs over a large number of different topics. The historical respectively while those kingdoms were under British links between our two nations are of course very close. protection in terms of the 1892 treaties with the Trucial Today 120,000 British nationals live and work in the States. Iran did not accept those claims. However, following United Arab Emirates. I am told that there are about the decision in 1968 to withdraw British forces from the 1 million British visitors a year. There are very many Gulf, while formally upholding the “Arab claims”, successive business links. Obviously, Barclays bank is much in the UK Governments in practice focused on trying to achieve news at the moment. Those business interests have a peaceful, compromise resolution of the territorial expanded from the oil and energy sectors to the finance disputes as part of Britain’s legacy. sector in recent years. There are many sporting and cultural links. For example, the main English language Once Iran knew that Britain was departing it made a newspaper in the Gulf is edited by a former editor of variety of claims, all the more forcefully, for a variety of The Daily Telegraph and citizens of Abu Dhabi have a territories in the Gulf. For example, the Government of particular interest in the Manchester City’s results. Equally, Iran put forward a claim for the whole of the island our defence interests are strong. Our defence co-operation of Bahrain. In the wake of a referendum on Bahrain agreement represents the UK’s largest defence commitment under United Nations supervision, Iran was obliged to outside NATO. The UAE is our largest export market abandon its claim. It promptly revived its dormant in the middle east for non-military goods. claim to Abu Musa and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs. I could have concentrated my remarks on any of Ultimately, the then Conservative Government were those aspects of our relations, but I decided to focus the unable to secure a deal for all three islands in 1971. That debate on the issue of the islands of Abu Musa and proved achievable only with regard to Abu Musa. Iran the Greater and Lesser Tunbs. The delegation from the and Sharjah agreed to a joint administration of Abu Federal National Council was keen to impress on Musa, without prejudice to their competing territorial the UK Parliament the importance of the islands and claims. The late Sheikh Khalid Mohammed, who was the part that they play in political debate in both the the ruler of Sharjah at that time, said: United Arab Emirates and the wider Gulf. I checked up, and the last time the issue was raised in the House was “I had spent about two years collecting documents proving that the island is Arab territory, and that it belongs to Sharjah. I when Edward Heath was Prime Minister in 1971. It was had asked a team of jurists to prepare legal documents and in that debate of December 1971 that figures such as papers. These were presented to the Iranian Government. However, Sir Alec Douglas-Home, the Foreign Secretary at that the logic of force and threat allowed no room for reason and stage, Jeremy Thorpe and Roy Hattersley all gave the legitimate proofs...Several factors contributed to the delicacy of House the benefit of their opinions. Having researched the situation, combining to form significant pressure...Thus, after some of the history, I decided that it was about time consultations with brothers, I deemed it appropriate to seek a that the subject got another little airing; so this is formula that would freeze the problem politically, while dealing the story. with it economically. Hence came the said agreement.” Abu Musa, the Greater Tunb and the Lesser Tunb Iran then seized Greater and Lesser Tunbs by an are three small but strategic islands located along the amphibious assault using hovercraft in the very last narrow route through the Gulf into the straits of Hormuz hours of the British protectorate and just before the and out into the gulf of Oman. Much of the Gulf’s oil coming into existence of the United Arab Emirates. exports and its non-oil imports pass along that route, as One Arab policeman and three Iranians were killed. do naval vessels entering and exiting the Gulf. Indeed, a Richard Mobley, in an interesting article in Naval War 227WH Abu Musa and the Greater and 9 JUNE 2009 Abu Musa and the Greater and 228WH Lesser Tunbs Lesser Tunbs [Mr. John Grogan] and anti-ship missiles were deployed. American Secretary of State for Defence Perry noted that Iran had deployed College Review in autumn 2003, said of the period chemical weapons in the Gulf, particularly on Abu leading to the creation of the United Arab Emirates Musa. that “the United Kingdom, on behalf of the emirates of Sharjah and Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): I Ras Al Khaimah, asserted that all three islands were Arab territory. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, London explicitly backed Sharjah’s claim to Abu Musa and Ras which is critical and on a matter of great principle. He Al Khaimah’s claim to the Tunbs. With its security obligations referred to the distinguished UAE delegation that visited scheduled to lapse by the end of 1971, however, Great Britain the United Kingdom earlier this year, and to our discussions attempted to resolve the islands dispute while fostering the creation about the three disputed islands. Does he believe that of the new United Arab Emirates.” the islands belong to the Arabs, and that the United I now want to make a brief reference to the exchanges Kingdom Government should make it extremely clear in the House that I have referred to already, which to the Governments of the UAE that we will support followed the invasion of the Tunbs in December 1971. them in every possible way in seeking about to bring a Sir Alec Douglas-Home stated on 6 December: peaceful conclusion? “Once the decision to withdraw our forces from the Gulf and to end our special treaty relationships with the Gulf States was Mr. Grogan: As always, the hon. Gentleman cuts to taken, it was inevitable that these long dormant disputes would come into the open. Our aim has therefore been to settle these the quick. Having studied their history, I agree that the issues where possible, so that they would not drag on, generating UAE has a strong case for claiming the islands. If the suspicion and hostility in the future.” hon. Gentleman bears with me, I shall suggest a way Jeremy Thorpe then asked a question. He said that forward in my closing remarks. “when the Tunbs were invaded we were still under treaty obligations Tensions between Iran and its Arab neighbours have to Sharjah. As a result of that, is it our intention to use our good a long history. Despite that, however, there are many offices between the Sheikh of Sharjah and the Shah of Iran to modern-day ties between the UAE and Iran. For example, bring about some amicable settlement? Does he accept that we the UAE is Iran’s main trade partner. The director have continuing political obligation in that connection?” general of the trade planning office of Iran’s trade Roy Hattersley then spoke: development organisation has said that Iran’s exports “The right hon. Gentleman”— to the UAE have been on the rise, with an average the then Secretary of State— growth rate of 27.8 per cent. “said that so far as the sovereignty of the Tunbs and Abu Musa is Earlier this month, the Prime Minister of the United concerned the issue remains open. Is that the view of the Government Arab Emirates hailed the advancing trade ties between of Iran or is it the Foreign Secretary’s view?”—[Official Report, Iran and the UAE, saying that said the two sides enjoyed 6 December 1971; Vol. 827, cc. 944 to 949.] “deep-rooted and amicable relations”. He reiterated What happened next? Diplomatic relations were that the UAE will never interfere in the internal affairs established between Iran and the United Arab Emirates of other countries, particularly Iran, and said that he in October 1972. On 5 October 1972, a statement was always stresses the importance of improving ties with read to the 27th session of the General Assembly of the all countries. He expressed hope that the middle east United Nations in which the UAE reaffirmed its sovereignty would be free from weapons of mass destruction but over the islands. A similar statement was read out supported Iran’s peaceful use of nuclear power for before the Security Council on 20 February 1974; and a energy. third statement was read to the UN Special Political Sheikh Mohammed said that disputes Committee on 19 November 1974. In 1980, the UAE “over national borders have never prevented trade and human joined five other nations to form the GCC—the Gulf exchange”. Co-operation Council. He also said: Throughout the 1980s, the dispute over the islands “Trade relations between any two nations always lead to better was overshadowed by the Iran-Iraq War. The Iranians relations and facilitate the resolution of conflicts.” began encroaching beyond the assigned area for their presence in Abu Musa by constructing roads and an The commentator Hassan al-Alkin put it another way. airport, and other civilian and military installations. In He noted that the UAE 1987, they moved troops to the southern side of Abu “has pursued a policy of peace co-existence with Iran, hoping Musa. In late 1991, Iran imposed restrictions on third-party that the development of good relations would inevitably lead to citizens wishing to enter the UAE zone of Abu Musa by the settlement of contentious problems.” requiring entry permits. The UAE rejected that measure, On 23 May 2009, the Minister of State for Foreign so in April 1992, Iran ordered all foreigners off the Affairs, Anwar Mohammed Gargash, gave more detail island. Those foreigners ran the UAE-sponsored school, on the approach of the UAE to the three disputed medical clinic and power-generating station. Iran took islands. He said that his country wants to resolve the full control of the island. issue through direct talks or international arbitration. After the UAE had taken the matter to the GCC in At a side-meeting of the Organisation of the Islamic September 1992, Iran declared full sovereignty over the Conference in Damascus, Gargash said: islands. However, the dispute was temporarily resolved “The Emirates want to resolve the occupied islands problem when Iran and Sharjah agreed to abide by the 1971 with neighbouring Iran”. agreement. When Iraq made threatening moves towards He continued: Kuwait in October 1994, Iran increased its military “Unfortunately despite the passage of more than three decades presence on Abu Musa. When the crisis subsided, Iranian I cannot remember there having been any positive issues in that troops remained on the island and surface-to-air missiles respect”. 229WH Abu Musa and the Greater and 9 JUNE 2009 Abu Musa and the Greater and 230WH Lesser Tunbs Lesser Tunbs In recent times, there have been a number of statements over the over the islands of Abu Musa, Lesser Tunb and of support from the international community in favour Greater Tunb. As previous Ministers have made clear, of referring the issue to the International Court of we support a peaceful settlement of the dispute by Justice at The Hague, in accordance with article 33 of means in accordance with international law. That might the charter of the United Nations and article 36 of the be through direct bilateral discussions or undertaken statute of the International Court of Justice. Not through international mechanisms, such as the International surprisingly, the Gulf Co-operation Council countries— Court of Justice. The United Kingdom, the Gulf including Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Co-operation Council and the European Union are Qatar—have repeatedly backed the UAE, which is an concerned about the lack of progress. As his Excellency, approach that I endorse. However, there has been wider Sheikh Mohamed bin Rashid, Prime Minister of the support. UAE, said last week: In April 2009, the EU and GCC reiterated their “If this issue is resolved…we could together avoid all that support in a joint communiqué for a peaceful settlement could possibly disturb the security and stability of this region and of the dispute in accordance with international law the relationship between the two countries.” through direct negotiations between the parties or by Of course, any agreement must be in accordance with referring the matter to International Court of Justice. international law. In January 2009, the Speakers of the Italian and Turkish British interests demand peace, tranquillity and Parliaments spoke on the matter. The Speaker of the constructive relationships in the middle east and in the Italian Parliament said that Abu Musa and the Greater Gulf. That is the entire focus of British foreign policy in and Lesser Tunbs belong to the UAE and that diplomacy the region, where we have long-standing friendships is the way to restore them. The Speaker of the Turkish and partnerships. Events in the Gulf have profound Parliament said that he would speak to the Speaker of effects on our own security, economy and commercial the Iranian Parliament, urging the country to speed up interests. As hon. Members are aware, the Gulf has the resolution of the dispute. Last year, the US deputy 60 per cent. of the world’s oil reserves and 40 per cent. assistant Defence Secretary for middle eastern affairs, of its gas reserves. We work closely with Gulf nations to Christopher Straub, supported the UAE’s claim over enhance regional security, to combat terrorism and to the islands, accusing Iran of exercising hegemonic behaviour develop a sustainable and successful global economy. in the region. As the Foreign Secretary said only last month, in just In recent years, the UAE has painstakingly set out its two generations, the Gulf states have created some of legal and historical case for sovereignty over the three the most advanced and inspiring cities in the world. islands. It points to a clear British recognition of that claim during the protection of the Trucial states. It The UAE is one of the UK’s closest allies, and we notes the protestation to Britain by the then rulers of enjoy a long-standing, warm and valued relationship the two Emirates against Iranian violations of its built on years of co-operation in fields as diverse as sovereignty. The two Emirates exercised all aspects of trade, defence and low carbon energy. For some years, sovereignty over the islands before the Iranian invasion, we have been working in co-operation with the UAE in including levying and collecting taxes and duties from the development of its military capability, and we have pearl fishers and shepherds using the island, installing assured our Emirati friends of our substantial and governors on the island, running public services and enduring support to their security as well as our so on. commitment to that of the wider Gulf region. These close ties have been brought even closer by our peoples—the The best way ahead is surely for the International migration and travel of UK and UAE citizens—and by Court of Justice to consider the matter in detail and to trade. The UAE is now the biggest middle east export reach a conclusion. As I have said, I believe that the market for UK companies. In fact, the UK exports UAE has a strong case. Of course, there are many more to the Gulf than it does to China and Hong Kong others area of contention in the Gulf and the middle combined—a total of £12 billion of goods and services east, but the islands of Abu Musa and the Greater and in 2007. About 130,000 UK nationals live in the UAE Lesser Tunbs should not be forgotten by the House. We and more than 1 million visit every year. Many UK have a long and historic association with the UAE and a companies have a presence in the UAE, including responsibility to comment on the matter. Indeed, given representatives of our banking profession, construction the strategic location of the islands, the security and industry and energy sector. stability of the Gulf region will remain fragile in the absence of an effective resolution. To echo the words of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary during his visit to the UAE last 1.48 pm November, the UAE is a global success story and a The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth “model of openness; business-friendly, tolerant, peaceful and Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I congratulate my hon. Friend responsible…a microcosm of what a successful Middle East can the Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan)—my honourable become”. and good friend—on securing this Adjournment debate. If I may, Mr. Weir, I shall depart briefly from my I thank him for his generous and kind remarks on my script and refer to a comment made by my hon. Friend. new role. I suspect that No. 10 has not been in contact The most important recent development is the fact that with my hon. Friend this morning, because it has been the UAE now owns Manchester City, which is the most trying the wrong number. I will happily share the correct important and successful football team in the world—at number later—not, I hasten to add, that I have the least that will be the future story. I wish that I could say, ability to influence decisions taken there. hand on heart, that that has been the story of the past My hon. Friend has raised an incredibly important 30 years, but I have chosen to support the club in an era issue. The Foreign Office and the Government are concerned when trophies have not been readily available. However, by the continuing dispute between the UAE and Iran I am delighted not only that the UAE’s royal family 231WH Abu Musa and the Greater and 9 JUNE 2009 Abu Musa and the Greater and 232WH Lesser Tunbs Lesser Tunbs [Mr. Ivan Lewis] and that is consistent with international law. It would be easy, especially on day two of my new job, to engage in have assumed ownership of the club, but that so far bellicose rhetoric, but that would not be appropriate in they have been very clear about their responsibility to this job, and I have never done it in any previous job. In the wider community. this new role, grandstanding will not help the situation. I pay tribute to them not just for purchasing the I have made clear our friendship and economic and football club and being determined to make it successful, social relationship with the UAE, which are as deep-rooted but for caring passionately about the city of Manchester as those with almost any other country. We are very and about Greater Manchester more generally. That proud of that relationship, and we want to deepen and relationship with Manchester City will bring opportunities strengthen it in future. in economic regeneration, social relationships and bridging We believe in the need for a just settlement in the divides between different regions of the world. I have matter before us today. The best role that we can play is been very impressed during these early days. I also have to continue to make that point to the UAE and to use four season tickets, Mr. Weir, so I do not spend my time all means possible through international institutions to in the corporate hospitality part of the great stadium of influence Iran’s attitude and to encourage it to desire a Eastlands. sensible and fair settlement of that long-standing dispute, which continues to be a bone of contention and adds to Mr. Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. I remind the instability and insecurity. We hope for rapid progress, Minister to return to the subject of the debate. but we want to facilitate a solution. It is very important, however, that whatever solution emerges is consistent Mr. Lewis: I shall move on, Mr. Weir. I just thought with international law. that it was important to make that serious point. Of As hon. Members are aware, regional security in that course, I am delighted that the royal family now owns part of the world is vital. We therefore support efforts the football club that I support. I am also delighted, to resolve the issues peacefully and quickly. History has however, with their engagement with the wider city and shown that acts of aggression do not create lasting with Greater Manchester. That is important educationally, peace and stability. As hon. Members have said, we culturally and economically, and I welcome the early remain concerned about the lack of progress in a dispute stages of that relationship. that has lasted for 40 years, and we shall continue to do everything in our power to facilitate a fair and just Sir Nicholas Winterton: I congratulate the Minister settlement by any standards in accordance with international on his appointment and new responsibilities; they are, law. My new role gives me an opportunity to engage indeed, richly deserved. However, have not his comments afresh with this issue and to consider mechanisms—perhaps emphasised the importance of a total commitment bilateral, but more realistically through international from us to the UAE that it will always have our support institutions—to begin a process to end this 40-year-old in this matter? Clearly it owns those islands, and it must dispute. I shall focus on this matter, consider what is be in no doubt that we will give it ongoing and total possible and keep hon. Members informed of any progress support. that we can make. Question put and agreed to. Mr. Lewis: As ever, the hon. Gentleman makes a salient point. The British role is to argue, advocate and 1.57 pm facilitate a solution that underpins stability in the region, Sitting adjourned. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

It is my and the Strategy Board’s firm expectation Written Ministerial that the new shared chief executive role will be advertised shortly and the post filled by the autumn. Statements This is not a decision that we have come to lightly. However, on the basis of the assurances provided by the industry and on the funding agreement that has Tuesday 9 June 2009 been reached between RIGT and RGF, I have decided to announce that we will not need to introduce a statutory levy. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS With all three elements in place, the Strategy Board, under the expert chairmanship of Baroness Julia Neuberger, will have the industry commitment and resources to be Trade Credit Insurance Top-up Scheme able to do the job that it was set up to do. I look forward to the board’s initial report in the autumn on what the strategy and priorities should be. The Minister for Business (Mr. Pat McFadden): My We recently completed a consultation on how a statutory noble Friend the First Secretary of State, Secretary of levy would be implemented. That consultation made it State for the Department for Business, Innovation and clear that any levy would take full account of any Skills and Lord President of the Council has made the voluntary payments made up to the point of introduction. following statement on Trade Credit Insurance Top-up I make that point to reassure those who have committed Scheme. themselves to making the voluntary system work that, if “From today eligibility for the scheme will be backdated they are let down by less public spirited competitors for those firms who have had their credit limits reduced and I am forced to resurrect the idea of a levy, those since 1 October 2008. These businesses are now eligible who have contributed will benefit from their for six months cover providing they meet the other contributions—not the reverse. eligibility criteria set out previously. Secondly, from today customers of HCC International Insurance Company plc will be eligible for policies under the Government scheme. Brokers and clients ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS should contact HCC International Insurance Company plc in the first instance in order to apply for the scheme. Dairy Farmers of Britain Further information can be found at the Business Link website, www.businesslink.gov.uk/creditinsurance .” The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): I wish to inform the house about the problems affecting Dairy Farmers of Britain. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT PricewaterhouseCoopers were appointed as receivers and managers of Dairy Farmers of Britain Limited Problem Gambling (DFOB), the agricultural milk co-operative, on Wednesday 3 June 2009. This followed an invitation by its directors to DFOB’s Bank, HSBC following a prolonged period The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, of operational and financial restructuring during which Media and Sport (Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe): I have had a they closed down several plants and members’ debts number of discussions with the gambling industry in were converted into shares. Their major contract to which they have now assured me that they will provide supply fresh milk to the Co-operative Group was not £5 million each year as a minimum commitment over renewed and was due to end on 1 August. the next three years to fund gambling research, education For customers, employees, dairy farmer members and treatment. The Chair and trustees of the industry and ex-members, hauliers and other supplying businesses, fundraising body (the Responsibility in Gambling Trust— this has been very unwelcome news, and many of them RIGT) working with Business in Sport and Leisure will have lost significant sums of money. (BISL) and the other trade bodies are publicly committed I would like to pay tribute to the way in which all to over-achieving the minimum sum of £15 million over parties affected by the collapse of DFOB have worked three years and have set out credible plans to do so. together to try to minimise the immediate impact. The They have secured significant corporate backing already. employees of DFOB have worked hard over the last few The trustees of the new commissioning body—the days, including the weekend, to ensure that arrangements Responsible Gambling Fund (RGF)—are satisfied that have proceeded smoothly. The Receiver has, with the the assurances given to them by the Trustees of RIGT chair of DFOB’s Member Council, held three meetings are sufficiently robust to allow them to develop three around the country to inform farmer members of the year funding programmes. This will enable RGF and situation and their plans. He is, with the support of service providers in the field to plan sensibly. I also saw DFOB’s bankers, HSBC, continuing to trade: farmers a successful transition to the new structures for underpinning who remain with the business will receive a payment for the strengthened voluntary arrangements as critical. I their milk in the middle of this month and again at the am pleased that there has been an appropriate transfer end. The level of payment will depend on the price the of undertakings to the new commissioning body and Receiver can realise for the milk produced. He has not agreement by the fund’s trustees to a shared executive to held farmer members to their contracts and I understand support both the Strategy Board and the RGF. approximately half of DFOB’s milk volume has moved 31WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS to other buyers already, representing about a third of positive impact that section 75 has had over the past their members. He has also, through the hauliers, continued decade, and offers a helpful reflection on how effectiveness to collect milk from those remaining with the business. could be developed to encourage greater equality of I would also like to thank the industry as a whole for opportunity for all in Northern Ireland. the constructive way they have worked together to try to I commend the Equality Commission for their valuable ensure that the complex supply arrangements between contribution to pursuing equality of opportunity and I DFOB and other businesses continue to operate smoothly. look forward to receiving proposals from them on how DFOB and NFU have set up helplines; farmers should best to take this work forward through guidance to not feel pressurised into signing up to contracts with public authorities. alternative buyers that they might regret. At the time of the Receiver’s appointment DFOB employed around 1500 people, and had about 1800 farmer TRANSPORT members. It supplied over 1 billion litres of milk a year, representing slightly under 10 per cent. of UK production. Its business was in Wales and England, with no farmer Correction to Parliamentary Answers members or businesses in Scotland or Northern Ireland. Since 3 June the Receiver has sold Lubborn creamery in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Somerset and negotiations are in place for other plants (Paul Clark): I wish to provide clarification to the including Llandyrnog creamery in north Wales. House with regard to the consolidated answer I gave on I have been in contact with the chairmen of the 18 May 2009, Official Report, column 1124W,concerning North West Development Agency and One North East the installation of warning signs for overhead cables to discuss how they can provide support and advice, in and the risk assessment carried out prior to their installation particular in relation to the Blaydon dairy and DFOB on the A64 York to Scarborough road. farmers in Cumbria and Northumberland. I have also Prior to the installation of the marker posts no written to the British Bankers’ Association, and the assessment of risk to road users from overhead electric Agricultural Industries Confederation, to ask their members cables was carried out. to consider any short term cash flow problems faced by The reason for the installation of the marker posts members sympathetically.Farmers facing credit difficulties was not based on ensuring road user safety per se, but can also discuss with Business Link their eligibility for to warn road maintenance operatives, and the emergency the Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme and can services, of the presence of overhead cables, especially contact HMRC’s Business Payment Support Service— during the hours of darkness or poor weather conditions. which may enable them to defer any payments due to HMRC such as taxes (PAYE,VAT, income or corporation tax) and national insurance. South Central Franchise DEFRA officials met yesterday with the Receiver, the chair of DFOB’s Member Council, representatives from the Government Offices, the Regional Development The Minister of State, Department for Transport Agencies and the insolvency service. The Receiver and (Mr. Sadiq Khan): My right hon. and noble Friend the officials have agreed to keep closely in touch on Secretary of State for the Department for Transport has developments and on his plans for the remaining businesses. made the following ministerial statement. Officials have also kept in close touch with Dairy UK as I have announced today that Southern Railway Ltd the trade body representing the industry, and with the (a subsidiary of GoVia Ltd) has been awarded the NFU. Through all parties working together I hope that South Central franchise. we can minimise the short term impacts on the industry The new franchise will begin operation on Sunday and individuals, and maximise the chances of finding 20 September 2009. The franchisee will last for five buyers for the remaining businesses, giving more certain years and ten months, with the final year dependent on long term prospects to farmers, employees, and other the franchise achieving agreed target performance. It dependent businesses. But there remain difficulties in will be possible for the franchise to be extended by up to assisting all of them. two years, at the Department for Transport’s discretion. I will update the House as necessary. The new South Central franchise will provide a premium of £534 million net present value over the core five years ten month franchise length. NORTHERN IRELAND Bids were also received from NedRailways South Central Ltd (NedRailways Ltd), NXSC Trains Ltd Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (National Express Group plc) and Southern Trains Ltd (Stagecoach Group Plc). The new franchise will provide additional capacity at The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun peak times (linked to the Network Rail programme of Woodward): I have today placed copies of the final platform lengthening) delivering a key element of the report of the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland high level output specification in relation to London. In on the effectiveness of the section 75 equality duty in addition the franchise will provide more services such as the Libraries of the House. enhanced late evening weekday frequencies (and weekend The duty under section 75 of the Northern Ireland frequencies in south London), later last trains on Friday Act 1998 is an important mechanism for encouraging and Saturday nights, additional late night Brighton to public authorities to place equality considerations at Worthing services and hourly Sunday Brighton to the heart of policy-making. This report highlights the Southampton services. 33WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

By December 2013 the new operator will provide Heath, Hove, Lewes, Redhill, Three Bridges and Worthing) 158 additional vehicle arrivals into London in the morning will undergo a major refurbishment as part of the peak (a 14 per cent. increase), 172 additional vehicle showcase station project, with further station enhancements departures London in the evening peak (a 16 per cent. to be carried at another 27 stations. increase) and eight additional vehicle arrivals-departures At least 1,000 extra car parking spaces and 1,500 into-from Brighton in the morning-evening peaks (24 per additional secure bicycle spaces will be provided and cent. increase). every station across the network will be cleaned and The Department will continue to limit annual rises of refreshed. regulated fares in line with national policy, which is The Government have also required the operator to currently RPI+1 per cent. Furthermore, individual regulated set targets for passenger satisfaction and provide additional fares for the 2010 fare rise are capped at RPI+1 per investment if these are not achieved. cent. This policy applies whether July RPI is positive or All stations and trains on the South Central network negative. As with all franchises, unregulated fares will will be fitted with CCTV by June 2011. Secure station be the responsibility of the operator. accreditation will cover 95 per cent. of footfall across all The new franchise sets a public performance measure stations including almost all south London stations and (PPM) target of 93.1 per cent. to be achieved by March 2014 there will also be an increase in British Transport police with improvements in delay minute and capacity targets presence across the franchise improving security. over the franchise. This compares with the current New gatelines will be installed at an additional 22 stations performance of 89.6 per cent. PPM as at the end of on top of the 14 south London stations being gated April 2009. prior to the franchise commencement with these staffed A key element of the franchise is the delivery of a for longer to increase security and reduce ticketless number of major infrastructure projects including platform travel. lengthening, east London Line and Thameslink. The There will be an increase in staffing at stations across franchise is drafted in such a way to facilitate the south London to ensure stations are staffed from first delivery of these projects. to last service on each operational day (except four Alongside the Department’s access for all and national stations and on Boxing Day) and all stations across the stations improvement programmes, the franchise will franchise will maintain or increase customer-facing staff enhance 34 stations. Seven stations (Brighton, Haywards presence.

13P Petitions9 JUNE 2009 Petitions 14P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Andrew Petition Selous, Official Report, 11 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 655.] [P000364] Tuesday 9 June 2009 Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: The issues raised in the petition are local matters and OBSERVATIONS my Department has brought them to the attention of the East of England Strategic Health Authority. Most NHS GP practices are independently run by HEALTH local GPs on behalf of their patients. GPs are self-employed independent contractors. Their accountability is through General Practice Surgeries (Bedfordshire) their patients and their contract to the PCT. Exactly the same arrangements will operate in these new GP practices The Petition of supporters of General Practice surgeries and Health Centres. Providers will be at least as accountable in South West Bedfordshire, and others, to local patients as current GPs are. Declares that the involvement of commercial companies This Government are seeking to deliver additional in General Practice surgeries risks destabilising local capacity and choice from whatever sector or provider it surgeries and threatens the comprehensive, high quality comes from. Traditionally, general practice has been care provided by General Practitioners; and further less well developed both in the terms of numbers and declares that commercial companies are accountable quality of care in areas with the greatest health needs. primarily to stakeholders, and that General Practitioners Despite successive efforts by Governments over the should be free to treat people as patients rather than years, little has changed. We believe it is time to try customers. something different—through an open and transparent The Petitioners therefore request that the House of competitive process to offer patient more innovative Commons urges the Government to halt their plans to high quality value for money services. encourage the involvement of commercial companies in Any successful provider is accountable firstly to their local General Practice surgeries; to continue to support patients in order to retain their confidence and by existing NHS General Practice surgeries; and to improve default their contracts. All providers, be they private services to patients by further investment in existing companies, the independent and voluntary sector, are General Practice surgeries. therefore in no different a position than existing GPs.

785W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 786W

The survey asked local authorities how easy it was for Written Answers to them to recruit the technical staff they needed. 59 per cent. said this did not apply or they did not know, which Questions could be interpreted as meaning that they were not recruiting or had not tried recently. 27 per cent. reported having some difficultly. The main reasons given for Tuesday 9 June 2009 recruitment difficulties were a lack of suitably qualified applicants (77.8 per cent. of authorities had experienced HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION difficulties), applicants lacking relevant experience (68.1 per Members: Allowances cent.), and inadequate pay (63.9 per cent.). Other commonly cited reasons were competition from private sector Mr. Amess: To ask the hon. Member for North employers (47.2 per cent.), competition from other local Devon, representing the House of Commons authorities (44.4 per cent.) and competition from other Commission what allowances were available to hon. public sector employers (31.9 per cent.). Members in each Session since 1983-84; what The findings of the survey together with three workshops conditions were imposed on payments made under with local authorities have informed work on developing each such allowance in each Session; what the capacity for local authorities on flood risk management. maximum amount claimable by an hon. Member under DEFRA is currently undertaking a scoping study on each such allowance was in each Session; and if he will broad local authority capacity building options and this make a statement. [278449] will report in July 2009. We are also working closely with the Environment Agency, Local Government Nick Harvey: A number of allowances have been Association and relevant sector skills councils to develop available to Members since 1983-84. Information about skills availability in the wider market place and links to these allowances, including the levels Members could education. claim, is published in regular House of Commons Library Research papers. These are available in the Library. Housing: Insulation Allowances have included the additional costs allowance Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for (now personal additional accommodation expenditure), Communities and Local Government how many (a) office costs allowance (renamed the incidental expenses lofts and (b) cavities were insulated through the provision and then administrative and office expenditure), Decent Homes programme in each of the last three travel allowances and the communications allowance years. [277823] (now communications expenditure). Each allowance has been put in place to assist Members in carrying out John Healey: At the end of each financial year local their parliamentary duties and was approved by Resolution authorities complete statistical returns on the number of the House. of dwellings that have received insulation measures but The conditions relating to each of the allowances these figures are not broken down by type. have been published in the Green Book, the first edition of which was published in 1987. These are available in Number of local authority dwellings the Library. Prior to 1987, Members were able to ask receiving insulation works by year for advice from the then Fees Office. No records exist of 2005-06 89,817 the conditions imposed at this time. 2006-07 81,563 2007-08 64,984 Source: COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Data from the Business Plan Statistical Appendix. Flood Control The Department does not collect data on insulation works by registered social landlords. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent estimate has been made of the number of vacancies for (a) flood risk engineers, (b) flood risk planners, (c) TRANSPORT flood risk project managers and (d) other flood risk Blue Badge Scheme management posts in local authorities. [277399] Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department Huw Irranca-Davies: I have been asked to reply. for Transport whether those diagnosed with We have not specifically sought to estimate the number myasthenia gravis are eligible to participate in the Blue of vacancies with local authorities relating to flood risk. Badge parking scheme; and if he will make a DEFRA, in association with the Local Government statement. [278653] Association, conducted a survey of all local authorities in autumn 2008 to make an initial assessment of existing Paul Clark: In order to qualify for a Blue Badge a local authority capacity and expertise. The survey revealed person needs to meet one of the eligibility criteria some encouraging evidence of existing levels of capacity prescribed in the regulations that govern the Blue Badge that could be built upon and also identified that this Scheme. was not a consistent picture across all authorities. The One of the key criteria to qualify for a badge under survey also confirmed that additional capacity would these regulations is that a person has a permanent and be required to take on proposed new duties from the substantial disability that causes inability to walk or Pitt Review and that recruitment difficulties and the very considerable difficulty in walking. People diagnosed availability particularly of technical skills would need with myasthenia gravis will therefore only be eligible for to be addressed. a badge if their walking ability is affected to the required 787W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 788W extent, or if they meet one of the automatic eligibility The publication sets out a programme of investment criteria, such as being in receipt of the Higher Rate of on national major road schemes of up to £6 billion for the Mobility Component of Disability Living Allowance. the period up to 2015 and which will be carried out by the Highways Agency. The schemes are listed in the Crossrail Line: Finance publication. The funding is in addition to the £3 billion allocated Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, to strategic regional roads before 2015-16 through the Department for Transport in what year he estimates his Regional Funding Allocation process. Regions have Department’s proportion of funding for Crossrail will recently provided an updated programme of priorities be fully drawn down. [278574] and spend on these and we are currently considering their advice. Decisions are expected in the summer. Paul Clark [holding answer 8 June 2009]: Crossrail is For 2009-10 the Highways Agency has an indicative due to commence operations in 2017, and the Department budget of £0.9 billion for capital expenditure on national for Transport’s committed funding contribution to Crossrail and regional major road schemes. Budgets for future will be fully drawn down in 2016. years will be settled annually and will depend on decisions Driving Tests: Essex and progress made on individual schemes.

Mr. Burns: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what the average waiting time was for a WORK AND PENSIONS driving test for applicants in (a) West Chelmsford constituency and (b) Essex in each of the last five Departmental Finance years for which figures are available. [278395]

Paul Clark [holding answer 8 June 2009]: The Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work information is as follows: and Pensions what estimate she has made of the cost (a) The average waiting time in weeks for a driving test in the (a) in total, (b) per head and (c) per job of each of West Chelmsford constituency in each of the last five years was: her Department’s employment programmes in (i) pilot and (ii) full form in each year from 2008 to 2015. Bike Car Voc1 [266109]

Chelmsford Jim Knight: The following table shows the relevant 2004-05 4.3 13.4 5.7 planned expenditure for the financial years 2008-09 to 2005-06 3.9 9.4 3.5 2010-11 inclusive. Figures for 2008-09 represent estimated 2006-07 4.1 7.7 1.7 outturn—actual expenditure will be published in the 2007-08 4.3 6.6 1.8 Departmental Report later this year. Estimates have not 2008-09 6.0 6.7 1.4 been made beyond the current Spending Review period, (b) The average waiting time for a driving test at each test so no figures are available for years from 2011 to 2015. centre in Essex in each of the last five years was: Information per head and per job is not available.

Bike Car Voc1 £ million Estimated Budgets Essex outturn 2004-05 4.1 10.9 5.7 Programme 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2005-06 3.2 8.3 2.5 Support for long-term 553 845 1,214 2006-07 3.4 6.6 1.7 unemployed 2007-08 3.2 5.9 1.8 Additional support at six — 145 216 2008-09 4.6 7.2 1.4 months 1 Voc = Lorry/Bus. Young persons guarantee and — 250 838 future jobs fund Roads: Repairs and Maintenance Lone parents and families 30 34 63 Support for disabled people 512 533 567 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Other employment programmes 207 184 202 Department for Transport what funding will be Total 1,302 1,991 3,099 provided for Highways Agency major road schemes in Notes: (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) 2011-12, (d) 2012-13 1. Other Employment programmes covers categories of provision with local or skills drivers. and (e) 2013-14; and what such schemes will be funded 2. 2008-09 estimated outturn is subject to audit. in each of those years. [278575] Jobcentre Plus: Manpower Paul Clark [holding answer 8 June 2009]: I refer the hon. Member to the statement given by my right hon. Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon), on 15 January and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 28 January 2009, Official Report, column 355, and to the Department 2009, Official Report, columns 572-74W, on Jobcentre for Transport’s publication “British Transport Infrastructure Plus: recruitment, how many of the 6,000 extra staff to Motorway and Major Trunk Roads” copies of which be recruited by Jobcentre Plus will be working as have been placed in the Libraries of the House. It is also personal advisers; and how many of these will be available on the Department’s website at: recruited on (a) part-time and (b) temporary www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/network/policy/motorways contracts. [261988] 789W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 790W

Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a more by providing incentives for firms to hire, access to matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, help in setting up a business, extra funding for training Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. and opportunities for work-focused volunteering. Member with the information requested. The costs attributable to the elements sponsored by Letter from Mel Groves: the Department for Work and Pensions are estimated at The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question around £400 million over the next two years, with the on how many of the 6,000 extra staff to be recruited by Jobcentre costs attributable to the Department for Innovation Plus will be working as personal advisers; and how many of these Universities and Skills estimated at around £83 million. will be recruited on (a) part-time and (b) temporary contracts. Of the £400 million, HM Treasury released an additional This is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to £295 million and the Department will fund the remainder me as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. from efficiencies and the Department’s VAT windfall. In line with the recent Budget announcements, Jobcentre Plus will be able to recruit up to 10,000 more staff. This is on top of the 6,000 new staff already announced in pre-Budget report. From October 2008 until the end of April 2009 Jobcentre Plus has FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE recruited over 6,000 new staff. All of these new people will be employed on customer-facing 1 Carlton Gardens services. More than half of these will be personal advisers with the rest in customer intervention and support roles within our Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for customer service operations. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects It is not possible to estimate at this stage how many recruits negotiations with the Crown Estates Commissioners on will be part-time but it is envisaged that most of them will be his Department’s lease on 1 Carlton Gardens to be recruited into fixed term appointments. completed. [278715] In addition to external recruits, we aim to absorb some surplus people from other Government Departments on a permanent Chris Bryant: We expect negotiations to be completed basis. by December 2009. Social Security Benefits: Fraud Departmental Data Protection

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what her most recent estimate is of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many the level of benefit fraud. [272476] officials in (a) his Department and (b) its agencies have been (i) disciplined and (ii) dismissed for (A) Jim Knight: The latest DWP estimates of fraud are breaches of data protection requirements and (B) contained in the DWP publication “Fraud and Error in inappropriate use of personal or sensitive data in the the Benefit System October 2007 to September 2008”, last 12 months. [278736] copies of which are available in the House of Commons Library. Chris Bryant: Information is a key asset to Government Social Security Benefits: Myasthenia Gravis and its correct handling is vital to the delivery of public services and to the integrity of the Government. The Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Security Policy Framework and the Data Handling and Pensions to which benefits those diagnosed with Report produced by the Cabinet Office provide a strategic myasthenia gravis are entitled; and if she will make a framework for protecting information that Government statement. [278652] handle and put in place a set of mandatory measures which Departments must adhere to. Jonathan Shaw: Myasthenia gravis does not, in its In line with Cabinet Office Guidance details are not own right, confer or deny entitlement to any benefit. provided to avoid revealing the identity of individuals People diagnosed with myasthenia gravis are entitled to and on the grounds of confidentiality. the full range of benefits as long as they fulfil that particular benefit’s entitlement conditions. G8 Unemployed: Social Security Benefits Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work he has had with his Italian counterpart on when (a) and Pensions with reference to her Department’s press the agenda and (b) supporting papers for the G8 release of 12 January 2009 on guaranteed extra help for Summit in July 2009 will become available. [278001] people unemployed for six months, how much and what proportion of the £0.5 billion required to fund the Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister package will be provided by her Department. [260066] discussed the agenda for the 2009 G8 summit with Prime Minister Berlusconi during his visit to Rome on Jim Knight: The pre-Budget report made available to 19 February 2009. DWP an additional £1.3 billion of funding which will The G8 presidency is responsible for hosting and ensure that over the next two years, through Jobcentre organising preparatory meetings in the lead up to the Plus and our private and voluntary providers, we not summit and also the circulation of summit-related papers. only maintain, but increase, the support we offer. In advance of the summit, the Italian presidency has The proposals announced on 12 January 2009 pledged hosted several preparatory meetings, details of which £0.5 billion over two years from April 2009 to guarantee are available at: more support to people unemployed for six months or www.g8italia2009.it 791W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 792W

We are not expecting the summit agenda and summit JUSTICE statements to be finalised until nearer the time of the Cabinet: Glasgow G8 summit. Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Middle East: Politics and Government how much expenditure was incurred by his Department in respect of the Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 16 April 2009. [278247] and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 23 February 2009, Official Report, column 381W, to Mr. Straw: I attended the Regional Cabinet meeting which organisations in Israel and Palestine his in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. £132—for my return Department has provided support for promoting travel by train from Oxenholme Station to Glasgow women’s roles in political processes; how much Central station. There was no further departmental financial support each has received; and what other expenditure by the Ministry of Justice in relation to the kinds of support his Department has provided. meeting. [275956] Commonhold

Caroline Flint: In 2008-09, the Foreign and Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Office (FCO) provided £7,050 for a Justice how many commonhold residential project implemented by the Itach Maaki, a women’s developments in (a) England and (b) Wales have been legal rights centre in the Negev. recorded by the Land Registry since commonhold Between 2005 and 2007, the FCO also spent £329,600 ownership was introduced. [278364] (from the Global Opportunities Fund) on a project run by the Civic Forum Institute to train newly elected Mr. Wills: Land Registry’s records show that, as of women in Palestinian local councils. 3 June 2009, there were (a) 12 commonhold residential developments comprising 97 units, Somali: Piracy of which 79 units have been registered in the name of individual unit holders in England; and (b) one commonhold residential development, comprising Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 30 units, of which 18 units have been registered in the name of and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department’s individual unit holders in Wales. policy is on steps to disrupt and dismantle pirate bases Crimes of Violence: Sentencing on the Somali coast; and if he will make a statement. [278632] Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many and what proportion of those offenders David Miliband: The UK seeks to deter, disrupt and sentenced for violence against the person or sexual suppress pirate activity on the high seas through offences received (a) a custodial sentence and (b) a participation in two international counter piracy operations, non-custodial sentence or other disposal in each of the Operation ATALANTA and Combined Task Force last two years. [278461] 151. We are also working with international partners through the Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Mr. Straw: The information requested is shown in the Somalia on military coordination, with the shipping following table: industry, Somali information strategies, and regional Number and percentage of offenders sentenced for violence against the person or capability development. sexual offences receiving custodial and non-custodial sentences, 2000-07 It is clear, however, that the solution to Somali piracy 2008 2007 lies on land. The UK is engaging with partners to tackle Percentage of Percentage the root causes of piracy, particularly instability and Offenders offenders Offenders of offenders insecurity in Somalia, through the provision of Violence humanitarian, security and development assistance. We against the will continue to work with regional partners and the person Custodial wider international community on building regional sentences: capabilities to combat effectively all aspects of piracy. Immediate 12,354 29.5 12,535 29.8 custody Sri Lanka: Armed Conflict Suspended 5,569 13.3 7,167 17.0 sentence Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Non-custodial 23,982 57.2 22,377 53.2 sentences received on the detention of Dr S. T. Rajah, T. Sathiyamoorthy and V. Shanmugarajah in Sri Lanka; and if he will make representations on their detention Total number 41,906 100 42,079 100 sentenced to his Sri Lankan counterpart. [277486]

David Miliband: We are aware of the reports of the Sexual offences detention of these three doctors and are following their Custodial case closely. I discussed this with Foreign Minister sentences: Immediate 2,808 569 2.810 55.6 Bollegama on 5 June 2009 and our high commissioner custody to Colombo has made representations to the Sri Lankan Suspended 296 60 439 8.7 Government on their behalf. sentence 793W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 794W

Number and percentage of offenders sentenced for violence against the person or keep under review the terms of the scheme and make sexual offences receiving custodial and non-custodial sentences, 2000-07 recommendations to the Secretary of State for change 2008 2007 as it considers appropriate. Percentage of Percentage Offenders offenders Offenders of offenders Elections: Proof of Identity Non-custodial 1,828 37.1 1,805 35.7 sentences Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Total number 4,932 100 5,054 100 Justice what timetable his Department has established sentenced for introducing the requirement for signatures for the Notes: issuing of ballot papers in polling stations. [278362] 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. 2. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent In any large scale recording Mr. Wills: The Government continue to consider system. Source: how this measure could most effectively be implemented, OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice including timing issues. We will need to ensure that any These figures can all be found in table 1.2 of Sentencing approach to this issue is aligned with other reforms to Statistics 2007 available at the following link: the registration and electoral processes. http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/sentencingannual.htm This data is based on the principal offence. Where an Firearms: Sentencing offender has been sentenced for more than one offence it is the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed, Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for where the same sentence has been imposed for more Justice pursuant to the answer of 21 April 2009, than one offence the principal offence is the one for Official Report, column 620W, on firearms: sentencing, which the statutory maximum is most severe. how many people were convicted for firearms offences for which a mandatory minimum sentence was Departmental Data Protection applicable in each year since 2004. [278425]

James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Straw: The available information is shown as Justice how many notifications his Department made follows. The table shows the number of persons, aged to the Information Commissioner in the year ended over 18 at the point of sentencing, sentenced for firearms 30 April 2009 in respect of the loss or mishandling of offences for which the mandatory minimum is applicable. personal information or data; what was notified in each The number of offenders sentenced has been supplied such case; and how many individuals were the subjects in lieu of the number convicted. Lags in time between of personal information or data in respect of which conviction and sentencing mean that the numbers convicted such notifications were made. [278737] and sentenced in a year will not always match. Offenders aged under 18 at the time of the offence are not eligible Mr. Wills: In the year ending 30 April 2009 the for the five-year mandatory minimum, while the table Ministry of Justice formally reported two personal data shows offenders aged over 18 at the point of sentence related incidents to the Information Commissioner’s they may have been under 18 when the offence was Office (ICO). committed in which case the five-year minimum would In each instance the ICO was notified of the not have been applicable. circumstances of the incident, the number of people Persons sentenced for firearms offences liable for five years minimum custodial 1 affected, the nature of the data involved and the sentence as prescribed by the Criminal Justice Act 2003 , 2004-07 Number of persons sentenced for whom mandatory minimum investigations being undertaken. may apply2 The number of individuals potentially affected by the 3 two incidents were 89 and 1,500. 2004 687 2005 353 2006 266 Departmental Responsibilities 2007 248 1 Offences under Firearms Act 1968 of possessing or distributing prohibited Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for weapons or ammunition, or possessing or distributing firearms disguised as other object. Justice what activities his Department determines fall 2 Only offenders aged over 18 at the point of sentencing have been included. within the definition of developing policies for the Five years is the mandatory minimum for persons aged over 18 at time of purposes of administering the policy development offence and for offences taking place after 26 January 2004. 3 The mandatory minimum is only applicable for offences that occurred on or grant. [278354] after 26 January 2004. Many of the persons dealt with in 2004 will have committed their offences prior to the mandatory minimum sentences being Mr. Wills: Under the terms of the Political Parties, introduced. Notes: Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA), policy 1. The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal development grants are intended to assist registered offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the political parties (i.e. those who have at least two Members heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or of the House of Commons who have made and subscribed more offences, the offence elected is the offence for which the statutory the parliamentary oath) with the development of policies maximum penalty is the most severe. 2. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although for inclusion in any election manifesto for relevant care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is elections. The administration of the policy development subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. grant scheme is a matter for the Electoral Commission, Source: not the Government. The Commission has a duty to OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice. 795W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 796W

The Criminal Justice Act 2003 prescribed mandatory minimum received by local Land Registry offices in the same custodial sentences for the offences of: possessing or distributing period. The data available do not differentiate between prohibited firearms or ammunition and possessing or distributing land registration decisions and the way in which decisions firearm disguised as other object where the offences were were reached. committed on or after 26 January 2004. The minimum sentence it set was three years where the offender Land Registry’s customer complaints categorisation was aged between 16 and 18 at the time of the offence and five changed in April 2008. In previous years complaints years for offenders aged over 18 at the time of the offence. relating to Land Registry decisions and the way they Data held by the Ministry of Justice cannot determine the date were reached would have been logged under two separate the offence took place or the age of the offender at the time of categories, which were “errors on registration made by the offence rather it is the date the sentence was passed and the HMLR”, and “contentious business”. Therefore the age of the offender at the time of sentencing that is held. It is figures for 2006-07 and 2007-08 given as follows include not possible to separately identify those cases that occurred other complaints. prior to 26 January 2004. (a) Head office (b) Local Judiciary: Sick Leave Contentious Business Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State 2006-07 3 136 for Justice how many members of the judiciary have 2007-08 8 114 been (a) suspended on full pay and (b) on sick pay for over 12 months; and if he will make a statement. Errors on Registration by HMLR [278017] 2006-07 0 245 Mr. Straw: There is one member of the judiciary that 2007-08 0 258 has been suspended on full pay and four on sick pay for over 12 months. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many judicial reviews resulted from Land Registry: Complaints complaints relating to errors made by local Land Registry offices in the last 12 months for which figures Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for are available. [277964] Justice pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 24 April 2009, Official Report, columns Mr. Wills: According to Land Registry records, there 969-70W, on the Land Registry: complaints, what was one judicial review case following complaints relating consideration he has given to extending the remit of the to errors made by Land Registry offices in the period Office of the Independent Complaints Reviewer to from April 2008 to March 2009. This case has not yet complaints relating to errors made by local Land been concluded. Registry offices. [277961] Magistrates Mr. Wills: Further to my answer on 24 April 2009, Official Report, columns 969-70W, the Government do Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for not believe there is a need to extend the remit of the Justice what recent steps have been taken to increase Office of the Independent Complaints Reviewer (ICR). the number of magistrates. [278100] The ICR’s current remit is wide ranging and includes the ability to investigate complaints about any error Mr. Straw: No steps are being undertaken to increase made by the Land Registry, whether procedural or the number of magistrates. Recruitment is being undertaken substantive. As set out in my previous answer, the only to maintain levels to those forecast and to manage exception to this is where a complainant refers to a the workload. decision on land registration not related to Requirements for numbers on the bench is determined maladministration, such as delay or loss, where the locally taking into account projected retirements, possible decision can only be considered judicially. For example, resignations, average sitting days, bench make-up, local where an error created a substantive right for a third workload data, resources and the use of District Judges party, such as an incorrect name being entered as a (magistrates courts). registered proprietor of a property leading to the individual named becoming the legal owner of the property, this Parkhurst Prison would require alteration of the register by either the Court or the Registrar, exercising the powers conferred on them by schedule 4 of the Land Registration Act 2002. Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps his Department has taken in response to the Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for recent report by HM Chief Inspector of Prisons on Justice how many complaints have been received by (a) HM Prison Parkhurst. [278328] HM Land Registry and (b) local Land Registry offices regarding (i) land registration decisions and (ii) the way Mr. Straw: As with all HM chief inspector of prisons’ in which land registration decisions were reached in reports an action plan responding to each of the each of the last three years. [277962] recommendations in the report will be submitted to Ministers and the chief inspector. Mr. Wills: 30 complaints relating to land registration Steps are being taken to address the prison’s poor decisions were received by Land Registry head office in industrial relations and deliver an agenda for change, the year from April 2008 to March 2009, and 163 were focusing on the improved treatment of offenders. Work 797W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 798W is under way to make Parkhurst a safer and more Prisons: Greater London decent environment, with a new safer custody group overseeing initiatives covering suicide prevention, violence reduction and diversity, including the treatment of disabled Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for prisoners. Justice how many prisons in London he has visited since 2007. [278101] Parole Mr. Straw: I have visited a number of prisons, probation Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice areas and courts during my time as Lord Chancellor how many cases the Parole Board considered in and Secretary of State for Justice. Since June 2007, I 2007-08; how many and what proportion of offenders have visited four of the nine establishments in Greater in such cases were granted oral hearings; and how London: HMP Belmarsh on 11 July 2007; HMP many such offenders were granted parole. [278460] Wandsworth on 31 January 2008; HMP Brixton on 25 February 2008; and HMP Highdown on 19 March Mr. Straw: In 2007-08 the Parole Board considered a 2008. I am planning to visit HMP Bronzefield in the total of 31,172 cases. 8 per cent. were considered by oral near future. hearing, which equates to 2,072 cases. Of those a total of 16 per cent. of offenders were recommended for Probation release. Prisons Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many cases were referred to multi-agency public Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice protection panels in the Probation Service in each of how long on average elapsed between prisoners’ cells the last five financial years. [278616] being unlocked in the morning and prisoners being returned to their cells in the evening in each month of Mr. Straw: The following table shows the total number the last two years. [278367] of multi-agency public protection arrangements (MAPPA) eligible offenders living in the community in England Mr. Straw: The figures requested are set out in the and Wales. The table also shows the number of eligible following table: offenders who were managed at the higher MAPPA Monthly average time unlocked levels and who were considered by multi-agency public Hours per prisoner per day protection panels. Cases are referred to level 2 where the involvement of several agencies will be required to 2007 implement or monitor the risk management plan and to April 10.20 level 3 where more senior oversight is additionally required. May 10.16 Cases can be referred by any agency but the identity of June 10.19 the referring agency is not recorded. These data are July 10.27 taken from the MAPPA Annual reports which are August 10.08 required of the MAPPA Responsible Authority (police, September 10.21 prison and probation services acting jointly) in each of October 10.21 the 42 areas of England and Wales. November 10.19 England and Wales 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 December 10.08 Total MAPPA 39,492 44,592 47,588 48,469 50,212 eligible offenders 2008 Level 2 1— 11,288 12,421 14,042 11,734 January 10.15 Level 3 2,152 1,478 1,267 1,249 1,072 February 10.20 1 Not collected. March 10.13 April 9.79 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice May 9.65 how many probation offices have closed in each of the June 9.73 last five years. [278369] July 9.58 August 9.46 Mr. Straw: Information on the number of probation September 9.57 offices closed in each of the last five years is not held or October 9.59 recorded centrally. To obtain this information could be November 9.56 achieved only at disproportionate cost because it would December 9.32 entail gathering information from archived files and checking with individual probation areas. 2009 January 9.57 Probation: Wales February 9.50 March 9.52 Mr. Caton: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Note: The methodology for recording time unlocked for week days was what recent assessment he has made of the effect of revised for the financial year 2008-09, resulting in a marginal reduction reductions in jobs in the probation service in the South in the reported figures from April 2008 onwards. Wales Probation Area on service delivery. [277306] 799W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 800W

Maria Eagle: The Director of Offender Management With regard to inspection of any places of detention in Wales (DOM) is responsible for ensuring that South overseas, the Government’s position is that the UN Wales Probation Trust delivers the required services Convention Against Torture and the OPCAT do not with the available resources. This is managed through apply extra-territorially. an agreed contract between both parties. OPCAT requires that the NPM should be functionally The management of the Probation Trust’s resources independent of Government. The addition of inspection to deliver services rests with its management team and bodies to the NPM will be a matter for discussion its board members. There is a close working relationship between Government and the NPM. If it is necessary to between the DOM and the Probation Trust to achieve add new inspection bodies to the NPM, or if bodies this, which ensures that financial planning assumptions within the NPM are restructured or renamed, the are fully taken into account in the Probation Trust’s Government will notify Parliament accordingly. development and delivery of services. This would involve the best value use and re-investment of resources toward front line services to ensure quality of delivery is maintained. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Restorative Justice Angling: Licensing Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people have appealed against orders Mr. Benyon: To ask the Secretary of State for requiring them to take part in high-visibility Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much was community payback schemes. [278104] collected in fees for (a) junior concession, (b) senior concession, (c) disabled concession and (d) full season Maria Eagle: There have been no appeals against rod licences in each year since 1997. [276782] community or suspended sentence orders on the grounds that offenders are required to undertake their community Huw Irranca-Davies: The following table indicates payback sentences on high visibility work projects. the amount collected for full, senior, disabled and junior rod licences issued by the Environment Agency (EA) Suicide since 1999. Prior to this, the EA used different systems to store rod licence information. Such information is, Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State therefore, not available in the categories required. for Justice what recent representations he has received Trout, coarse and salmon in support of decriminalising the offence of assisting £ suicide; and if he will make a statement. [278244] Full Senior Disabled Junior

Maria Eagle: Between 14 January 2009, when the 1999 11,036,112.00 781,906.50 495,892.50 770,596.50 Coroners and Justice Bill was introduced, and 4 June 2000 10,986,815.00 767,393.50 507,717.00 753,625.50 2009, we received 177 letters, directly or through their 2001 12,338,110.00 951,398.50 604,887.50 588,351.50 Members of Parliament, from people who support 2002 12,279,447.00 1,024,867.50 638,590.50 589,655.00 decriminalising the offence of assisting suicide in certain 2003 14,031,602.00 1,085,222.00 719,087.50 638,841.50 circumstances and had one meeting with the chief executive 2004 15,204,477.00 1,225,156.50 708,287.50 652,565.00 of the Dignity in Dying organisation. We also received 2005 16,111,736.00 1,349,604.75 484,109.25 602,544.25 76 letters from people who oppose such a change in 2006 16,674,391.00 1,462,821.50 414,470.00 612,835.00 the law. 2007 16,527,745.50 1,521,353.75 469,633.50 631,788.25 2008 20,644,100.00 2,982,324.50 902,291.00 647,505.00 Torture: Inspections Source: The Environment Agency’s rod licence database. Mrs. Humble: To ask the Secretary of State for Civil Service Agencies: Boats Justice pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 31 March 2009, Official Report, column 56WS, on Mr. Anthony Wright: To ask the Secretary of State Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture, for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many which bodies he has designated for the regular ships and boats have been (a) owned, (b) leased and inspection of military barracks, training establishments (c) hired by or on behalf of (i) the Marine and and places of detention (a) in the UK and (b) Fisheries Agency, (ii) the Environment Agency, (iii) overseas to satisfy the requirements of the Convention; Natural England, (iv) the Joint Nature Conservation and what plans he has for the designation of additional Committee, (v) the Sea Fisheries Committees and (vi) bodies. [278378] the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science in each of the last three financial Mr. Wills: Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons years; how many operational days each of those vessels inspects the Military Corrective Training Centre in has spent at sea at each agency’s expense in that period; Colchester at the invitation of the Ministry of Defence. and what expenditure each agency incurred on I have asked officials from my Department to work with purchasing, leasing and hiring such vessels in each such the Ministry of Defence to look at ways of ensuring year. [277262] that inspection of all other service custody within the UK is compliant with the Optional Protocol to the Huw Irranca-Davies: The Marine and Fisheries Agency Convention Against Torture (OPCAT), and that all (MFA) does not own any vessels, but it does have an service custody facilities in the UK are subject to inspection agreement with the Royal Navy for the provision of by the UK National Preventive Mechanism (NPM). ships and personnel for fishery protection duties. 801W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 802W

Royal Navy Fishery Protection Vessels Natural England owns a number of small vessels (no Number of ships) including: Total number vessels Class of of operational available for Rigid Inflatable Boat (RIB) that services Lundy Island Marine ship days at sea use Cost (£000) Nature Reserve;

2006-07 River 620 3 One mud pump, one riverboat, workboats, one traditional reed lighter, trailboats, one floating pontoon and inflatable boats Hunt 225 4 which are all used to service a number of NNRs and related Total days 845 — 6,199 work on the Broads. In addition, the organisation owns a small number of 2007-08 River 609 3 dinghy’s which are used on some of their NNRs. Hunt 187 3 The following table shows the number of vessel days Total days 796 — 6,056 from vessels either owned, leased and hired by, or on behalf of, Natural England for the years 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09, together with estimations of cost. 2008-09 River 700 3

Hunt 0 — Hired by Total days 700 — 5,916 or on Owned behalf of Total (days) Leased (days) (days) Cost (£) Additionally the MFA hire inshore vessels for specific fisheries enforcement work, but information on number 2006-07 26 n/a 33 59 24,200 of operational days at sea are not readily available. 2007-08 24 n/a 119 143 212,900 Hire of inshore vessels £ 2008-09 24 n/a 67 91 31,730 2006-07 942.50 2007-08 2,985.00 Total 74 0 219 293 268,830 2008-09 2,971.00

The Environment Agency (EA) currently owns 41 marine Not all the data and information requested are available. vessels to fulfil its statutory duties primarily for marine In some cases, the number of days at sea and the cost of environmental monitoring and fisheries enforcement. vessel trips is often included in the set cost of the Four of these vessels are 16 m coastal survey vessels contract, so there is no specific record other than an focussing on environmental monitoring. The other vessels overall cost. In addition, Natural England do not hold are smaller, ranging in size from 5-12 m, with duties data on the number of individual boats that are hired differing across fisheries enforcement, flood defence over time. inspections and harbour duties as well as environmental monitoring. The EA also hired eight vessels for data The Joint Nature Conservation Committee (JNCC) collection activities for Flood and Coastal Risk has neither owned nor leased any ships or boats in the Management and marine monitoring in 2008-09 some last three financial years. Details of ships and boats of which is expected to continue in 2009-10. The marine hired by, or on behalf of, the JNCC in the last three vessel fleet has been subject to a detailed review over the financial years are listed in the table which includes: last two years. The outcome of the review will lead to a 1. Vessels hired directly by JNCC; rationalisation of this fleet from 41 to 25 vessels over 2. Vessels hired on JNCC’s behalf by DEFRA; the next three years to improve efficiency and increase utilisation of the remaining assets. 3. Vessels hired by JNCC but costs recovered from DEFRA through a memorandum of understanding between both parties. The number of vessels, operational days and expenditure from 2006-09 is set out in the table: Ships hired by Number of Expenditure Financial or on behalf of operational days incurred by hiring Number of Number of year the JNCC spent at sea such vessels (£) operational Expenditure vessels Number of days (£000) owned vessels hired 2006-07 3 41 1333,600 2007-08 2 30 1310,280 2006-07 2,423 1,205 44 3 2008-09 1 10 1111,862 2007-08 2,571 1,371 45 5 1 As a consequence of the different hiring models noted above, there may be an 2008-09 2,426 1,622 44 8 overlap of up to £250,000 between JNCC’s supplied costs and those supplied by Source: CEFAS. EA’s Marine Monitoring and Vessel Review Project 2009 Natural England uses vessels for a range of activities Sea Fisheries Committees (SFCs) are local authority including: site monitoring; Environmental Impact committees, and DEFRA’s role in relation to the operation Assessment (e.g. as a result of the Napoli incident); of SFCs is restricted generally to the appointment of intertidal and sub-tidal surveys (e.g. sediment and some of the members of each Committee and to the invertebrate surveys in The Wash); compliance with confirmation of SFC byelaws. Information supplied by Health and Safety legislation and policy (e.g. diving the Association of Sea Fisheries Committees on behalf operations); cetacean surveys (Lyme Bay); the Lundy of the SFCs is set out as follows. Further information no-take zone monitoring program (including patrols about the SFCs is available in their annual reports or in and enforcement); servicing our National Nature Reserves papers prepared for the Committees’meetings and available (NNRs); and a range of formal visits (politicians, journalists under the Local Government (Access to Information) and Natural England officials) to specific sites. Act 1985. 803W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 804W

Expenditure on purchasing Vessels owned Vessels leased Operational sea days (£) Expenditure on leasing (£) Sea Fisheries Committee 06-07 07-08 08-09 06-07 07-08 08-09 06-07 07-08 08-09 06-07 07-08 08-09 06-07 07-08 08-09

Cornwall2 3 3——— 171158214—21,000— — — — Cumbria 333111145139163— — —11,075 11,075 11,075 Devon 4 4 4———2185 2162 2156———— —— Eastern 3 3 3——— 123112 380———— —— Kent and 2 2 2——— 159144156 ———— —— Essex Northumberland 3 3 3——— 120101118 ———— —— North 3 3 3———2140 2,484 2,5117 — 51.5m — — — — Eastern North 6 6 6———2134 268 2124 7,000 — 17,400 — — — Western and North Wales South Wales 2 2 2——— 88125108—35,70036,000— — — Southern 5 5 4——— 12997106 ———— —— Sussex22211112197106— — —116,000 116,000 116,000 Isles of —————— — — ————— —— Scilly6 1 This is a secondary lease on “Solway Protector”. 2 Patrol numbers which may include periods of more than one day at sea. 3 One boat is laid up following theft of engine. 4 “North Eastern Guardian II” was sold out of service mid year. 5 “North Eastern Guardian III” was commissioned in July 2008. 6 Isles of Scilly has no dedicated vessels. This Committee utilises the Islands’ harbour master launches or the patrol services of the Cornwall Sea Fisheries Committee. Notes: 1. No ships or boats have been hired in the period for which information was requested. 2. Enforcement at sea takes place on an intelligence led basis and in any case is subject to weather conditions. There are days when it is neither necessary nor prudent as judged against the capabilities of the ships or boats available to the Sea Fisheries Committees, to take them to sea. Theoretical availability is also lost to planned and to short notice maintenance needs as well as restricted by crew availability. Crew members may, for example, be required in court to give prosecution evidence or to do other higher priority work.

The Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture £ Science (CEFAS) owns and operates one 73 m sea-going DEFRA Natural England research vessel the “Cefas Endeavour”. The “Cefas Endeavour” is also made available to other DEFRA 2004-05 2,712,776 0 partners such as JNCC and Natural England to enable 2005-06 1,596,639 0 them to deliver their work programmes. CEFAS also 2006-07 635,811 440 hires other vessels on a charter basis. The figures provided 2007-08 1,687,043 645,611 include charters of vessels under the Fisheries Science 2008-09 594,067 111,395 Partnership. Further information could be provided only at The number of vessels, operational days and expenditure disproportionate cost. is set out in the table: Employment Tribunals Service Owned vessels Charter vessels Expenditure Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Op. days Number Op. days (£ million) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many 2006-07 1 258 42 411 7.0 actions under employment law have been brought 2007-08 1 275 60 678 8.9 against his Department in each of the last three years; 2008-09 1 273 55 684 9.2 how many such actions were brought under each category of action; and how many such actions were contested by his Department at an employment Departmental Furniture tribunal. [277412] Huw Irranca-Davies: The number of employment Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for actions brought against the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much was Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in each of the spent on furniture by (a) his Department and (b) each last three years are as follows: of its non-departmental public bodies in each of the 2006-07: 24 last five years. [276270] 2007-08: 19 2008-09: 11 Huw Irranca-Davies: From information held centrally, They were brought under the followings categories: the core-Department’s financial system records the following expenditure on furniture and all related services (fitting, 2006-07 movement, etc.) by (a) the Department and (b) its Unfair/wrongful dismissal: 21 non-departmental public bodies in each of the last five Disability discrimination: two years: Racial discrimination: one 805W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 806W

2007-08 Research expenditure on sustainable marine fisheries Unfair/wrongful dismissal: 17 and conservation of salmon and freshwater fish stocks Age discrimination: one is incurred within the DEFRA Marine Programme. In Sex discrimination: one 2008-09 a further £11 million was allocated to operational science, which covered: 2008-09 stock assessment surveys; Unfair/wrongful dismissal: three biological sampling; Disability discrimination: three discard monitoring; Age discrimination: two fisheries science partnership; and Sex discrimination: one management advice. Redundancy: one

Terms of employment: one Spend (percentage) The number contested by his Department at an Total spend Employment Tribunal is: (£ million) Research Enforcement Administration

2006-07: of 24 cases in total 16 were contested at an ET 2008-09 19.9 20 61 19 2007-08: of 19 cases in total five were contested at an ET 2007-08 19.8 21 62 17 2008-09: of 11 cases in total one was contested at an ET 2006-07 19.7 21 62 17 2005-06 18.5 20 66 14 Fisheries 2004-05 20.0 28 61 11

Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for The administration figures include the totality of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what (a) corporate and finance support for the MFA. It is not experience and (b) professional knowledge the possible to meaningfully apportion this between the Chairman of the sustainable access to inshore fisheries various activities of the agency. project has of the matters which fall within the project’s Information for prior years is not held centrally and remit; and if he will make a statement. [277983] could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Huw Irranca-Davies: I have recently appointed Alan Riddell as the chair of the new Sustainable Access to Flood and Water Management Bill (Draft) Inshore Fisheries (SAIF) Advisory Group. Alan has a long history of leading regional development and Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for community sustainability. These are issues which are Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to inextricably linked to what we are trying to achieve publish his response to his Department’s consultation through SAIF; a thriving and sustainable fishing industry on the draft Flood and Water Management Bill. in the future. [277982] Alan has no prior connections to the fishing industry and this enables him to chair the group with complete Huw Irranca-Davies: We published the draft Bill on independence. This provides scope for fresh thinking 21 April. The public consultation period closes on and new and innovative solutions to problems which 24 July and we hope that the Environment, Food and have affected the inshore fleet for a number of years. He Rural Affairs Select Committee will be able to report on will have access to fishing expertise both within the its pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill before the summer advisory group, which incorporates a number of fishermen recess. The Government would then intend to respond and industry experts, and from outside the group in to both exercises when the House returns in the autumn. terms of access to our wide network of stakeholders. I look forward to working closely with him over the Flood Control coming months. Fisheries: Finance Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what the (a) Mr. Benyon: To ask the Secretary of State for target completion date and (b) actual completion date Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what budget for was for each major flood defence project since 1997; fisheries management his Department and its and if he will make a statement; [277397] predecessor set for each year since 1997; and what (2) what the (a) pre-construction budget and (b) proportion of the budget was spent on (a) research, outturn cost of each major flood defence project has (b) administration and (c) enforcement in each such been since 1997; and if he will make a statement. year. [276708] [277398]

Huw Irranca-Davies: In the following table is a summary Huw Irranca-Davies: The Environment Agency’s of the annual spend for fisheries management and the National Capital Programme Management Service has proportion spent on research, enforcement and associated been in operation since April 2000. In the earlier years administration. of this operation flood defence capital programmes Fisheries management, enforcement and associated were administered by regions which have since been administration is the responsibility of the Marine and superseded. Information is not therefore available for Fisheries Agency (MFA), which was created on 1 October years prior to 2004-05. 2005. The figures for 2004-05 are a broad estimate from A table has been placed in the Library of the House the comparative figures in the annual report and accounts. showing the required information from 2004-05 to 2008-09. 807W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 808W

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make it he has made of his Department’s performance in his policy to publish the minutes of the Inter- facilitating information sharing in respect of flooding departmental Group on Waterways. [277813] between responders through local resilience forums. [277654] Huw Irranca-Davies: In keeping with the spirit and effect of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, the Huw Irranca-Davies: The Government encourage work minutes of the Inter-Departmental Group on Waterways to facilitate the sharing of information between responders have been published on the DEFRA website: through Local Resilience Forums and looks to Category www.defra.gov.uk 1 and 2 responders to ensure that they fulfil their duties together with any related information that is key to its in this respect under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 wider context. (CCA) and its regulations. The Government are reviewing how to improve the Sewers: Private Sector effectiveness of the duties under the CCA, including whether the existing information sharing duty is sufficient Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for or should be strengthened. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his Department’s timetable is for the transfer of private Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for drains and sewers to water company ownership; and if Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress he will make a statement. [277986] his Department has made in formulating guidance for regulators to encourage those building critical Huw Irranca-Davies: My right hon. Friend the Secretary infrastructure to incorporate high levels of resilience to of State (Hilary Benn) announced on 15 December flooding; and when he expects such guidance to be 2008 that privately owned sewers and lateral drains in published. [277656] England will be transferred to water and sewerage companies from 2011. The precise timetable for the Huw Irranca-Davies: The Natural Hazards Team, transfer will be set out in the regulations that we anticipate established in the Cabinet Office in May 2009, is working will be consulted on later in 2009, prior to their being with Lead Government Departments and economic presented to Parliament for approval. Once Parliament regulators to encourage resilience building by critical has approved these regulations, the transfer will be a infrastructure owners. Guidance for regulators is expected statutory duty for water and sewerage companies. to be published in summer 2009.

Floods: Hospitals HOME DEPARTMENT

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Alcoholic Drinks: Crime Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent estimate he has made of the number of hospital Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for the buildings in high flood-risk areas; and what recent Home Department how many prosecutions for sale of estimate he has made of the number of such buildings alcohol to a drunk person (a) have been brought and which are flood-resistant or resilient. [277402] (b) resulted in conviction in each criminal justice area in each of the last five years. [275876] Huw Irranca-Davies: A national assessment of the number of hospitals located in areas at risk from flooding Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 15 May 2009]: has been completed as part of the Environment Agency’s Available information on the number of persons proceeded recent National Flood Risk Assessment. against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all As part of the Department of Health’s commitment courts for the sale of alcohol to a drunk person, under to UK resilience, the Department has completed an section 141 of the Licensing Act 2003, by police force assessment of NHS assets to establish their vulnerability area, for 2006 and 2007 (latest available) is given in to a wide range of disruptive challenges—including table 1. flooding. This work is an on-going process as part of The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences the civil resilience agenda under the CONTEST strategy. were the principal offence for which they were dealt with. For example, when a defendant has been found Inland Waterways guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on what date in statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2010 he expects Waterways for Tomorrow to be published; and for what reasons the document is not to A Penalty Notice for Disorder (PND) of £80 may be published in 2009. [277811] also be issued by the police for certain alcohol related offences such as the sale of alcohol to a person who is Huw Irranca-Davies: We will publish the update to drunk. The numbers of persons issued with a PND for “Waterways for Tomorrow” when it is ready following this offence, which was added to the scheme in April consultation later this year. We expect this to be in early 2005, by police force area, from 2005 to 2007 are shown 2010, which would be appropriate as it falls 10 years in table 2. after “Waterways for Tomorrow” was published in 2000. Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. 809W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 810W

Table 1: Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and Table 2: Number of Penalty Notices for Disorder (PNDs) issued for sale of found guilty at all courts for the offence of sale of alcohol to a drunk person1,by alcohol to a drunk person1 under section 141 of the Licensing Act 2003, by police police force area, England and Wales, 2006 to 20072,3,4 force area, England and Wales, 2005 to 20071,2 Proceeded against Found guilty Police force area 2005 2006 2007 Police force area 2006 2007 2006 2007 West Mercia 2 — 3 Cheshire — 1 — — West Midlands — 1 — Cleveland — 1 — — West 111 Devon and Cornwall — 2 — — Yorkshire Durham — 1 — 1 Wiltshire — 3 — Lancashire 1———Dyfed Powys — — — South Yorkshire — 2 — — Gwent — — — Thames Valley 1 — 1 — North Wales — 5 1 Total 2711South Wales — — 1 1 Under the Licensing Act 2003—section 141. British —1— 2 Only those areas for which data have been recorded are included in the table. Transport 3 Figures given are on the principal offence basis. Police 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Total 32 47 81 complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted 1 Sale of alcohol to a drunk person was added to the PND scheme with effect from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police from 4 April 2005. forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted data are used. from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Source: forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit. processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Table 2: Number of Penalty Notices for Disorder (PNDs) issued for sale of Source: 1 alcohol to a drunk person under section 141 of the Licensing Act 2003, by police Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit. force area, England and Wales, 2005 to 20071,2 Police force area 2005 2006 2007 Alcoholic Drinks: Young People

Avon and —— 1 Somerset Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bedfordshire — — — Home Department how many under 18 year olds were Cambridgeshire — 1 2 (a) arrested and (b) cautioned for alcohol-related Cheshire — — — offences in each criminal justice area in the last two City of ———years. [275877] London Cleveland 1 — 4 Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 15 May 2009]: Cumbria — 6 1 The number of persons aged 10 to 17 years cautioned Derbyshire — 1 1 for alcohol related behaviour offences in England and Devon and 112Wales, by police force area, in 2006 and 2007 (latest Cornwall available) are given in the table. The statistics relate to Dorset — 1 — persons for whom these offences were the principal Durham — — — offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant Essex — — 1 has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same Gloucestershire — — — time the principal offence is the more serious offence. Greater —37 Manchester Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. Hampshire 1 1 3 Number of persons aged 10 to 17 years cautioned for alcohol-related offences1 in 2,3,4 Hertfordshire — — — England and Wales, by police force area, from 2006 to 2007 Humberside — — 1 Police force area 2006 2007 Kent 2 1 4 Avon and Somerset 11 28 Lancashire 4 4 6 Bedfordshire 1 — Leicestershire 8 2 4 Cambridgeshire — — Lincolnshire 1 — — Cheshire 14 26 Merseyside — — 8 City of London 2 1 Metropolitan 3718Cleveland 20 18 Police Cumbria 52 63 Norfolk — — 1 Derbyshire 16 21 Northamptonshire — — — Devon and Cornwall 105 132 Northumbria — — 2 Dorset 14 18 North —1— Yorkshire Durham 82 86 Nottinghamshire — 1 1 Essex 2 — South 1——Gloucestershire 1 2 Yorkshire Greater Manchester 14 24 Staffordshire — 4 2 Hampshire 39 29 Suffolk — — 2 Hertfordshire 4 6 Surrey — 1 — Humberside 11 6 Sussex 7 1 2 Kent 52 52 Thames Valley — — 2 Lancashire 84 103 Warwickshire — — — Leicestershire 5 3 811W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 812W

Number of persons aged 10 to 17 years cautioned for alcohol-related offences1 in orders (ASBOs) issued and the number proven in court 2,3,4 England and Wales, by police force area, from 2006 to 2007 to have been breached at least once at all courts in the Police force area 2006 2007 East of England from 1 June 2000 to 31 December 2006 Lincolnshire 5 2 (latest available) is shown in the table. Merseyside 19 48 Number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued and the number proven Metropolitan Police 7 — in court to have been breached1 at least once at all courts in each police force 2 3 Norfolk 1 2 area in the East of England in each year, 2000 -06 North Yorkshire 41 29 Police 2000- force area 023 2003 2004 2005 2006 Total Northamptonshire 1 — Northumbria 314 366 Bedfordshire Nottinghamshire — — Issued 8 16 18 40 31 113 South Yorkshire 54 61 Breached 6 6 7 15 9 43 Staffordshire 21 12 Suffolk 19 12 Cambridgeshire Surrey 21 6 Issued 5 15 26 50 31 127 Sussex 45 62 Breached 4 6 12 12 15 49 Thames Valley 22 14 Warwickshire — — West Mercia 40 38 Essex West Midlands 45 49 Issued 2 23 79 88 32 224 West Yorkshire 160 198 Breached — 2 28 58 35 123 Wiltshire 5 3 Dyfed-Powys 27 29 Hertfordshire Gwent 76 75 Issued 16 17 40 73 35 181 North Wales 44 24 Breached 3 5 20 24 30 82 South Wales 39 16 Total 1,535 1,664 Norfolk 1 Includes offences under the: Licensing Act 1872 s.12; Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985 ss.1(2)(3)(4) and 1A(2)(3)(4), 2(1)(2), Issued 21 7 43 46 27 144 5B(2)(3), 5C(3)(4), 5D(2)(3), 6(2); Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Breached 8 4 10 23 22 67 Act 1997 s. 1; Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 ss.12,17,25(3)(a)(b), 25(4)(5), 32; Criminal Justice Act 1967 s.91; Licensing Act 1964 ss. 5C(5). 6, 6. 19, 28(3), 34, 36, 39(1)(2)(3)(4), 45, 48, 51(4), 53, 59(1)(a)(b), 71(4), 72, 84. Suffolk 85(2), 89, 155(1)(a), 157(1)(a)(b), 157(1)(b), 159,160,(1)(a)(b), 161(1)(2), 162,163,164(1)(2), 165, 166(1)(a)(b), 167, 168A. 168(1)(2), 169A, 169B, Issued 9 25 78 53 35 200 169C(1)(2)(3), 169E(1), 169F, 169G, 170, 171A(1), 172, 172A, 173, 174, 175, Breached 1 7 21 33 23 85 176, 177. 178. 179A(6), 179B(5)(6), 179E(8), 179H(2), 181A(1)(2)(3), 183(1)(2)(3), 184.185,186,187(3)(4), 188.193(7) Sch.8 Appendix C s. 6, Appendix D; Licensing (Young Persons) Act 2000 s.1; Licensing Act 2003 ss. East of 33,40,41, 46, 49, 56, 57, 59, 82, 83, 93, 94, 96, 108, 109,123,127,128, 132,134. England 135. 136.137,138,140,141,142,143,144,145,146, 147,147A, 148, 149(1 )(3)(4)(7(a)(b), 150(1)(2), 151,152,153,156, 157, 158, 160, 161, 165, Issued 61 103 284 350 191 989 168,179.197, Sch.8 paras 1 and 22; Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 ss. 11, Breached 22 30 98 165 134 449 27; Late Night Refreshment Houses Act 1969 ss. 7(2), 8,9(1)(4), 10; Town 1 ASBOs breached are counted based on the year the first breach was proven Police Clauses Act 1847 ss. 35, 61; London Hackney Carriage Act 1843 s.28; in court. Many ASBOs which are breached in a particular year will have been Merchant Shipping Act 1995 s.101(1)(a)(b), (4) and (5); Licensing Act 1902 issued in a previous year. ASBOs can be issued in one police force area and ss.2, 6(2)(a)(b); Similar provisions in Local Acts; Criminal Justice Act 1996 s. breached in another. In this table breaches are counted on area of issue. 6; Licensing (Occasional Permissions) Act 1983 s.3 (Sch. Para. 2, 3(a)(b), 2 The East of England Government office region is comprised of the following 4(1)(2)(3), 5,6.7, 8(2). 9(2)); Licensing Act 1988 s. 17,18; Deregulation and police force areas: Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Contracting Out Act 1994, s. 19; Children and Young Persons Act 1933 s. 5. 2 Norfolk and Suffolk. The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the 3 From 1 June 2000. principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been Note: cautioned for two or more offences at the same time the principal offence is Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and the more serious offence. 3 complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection them with reprimands and final warnings. These figures have been included in processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those the totals. 4 data are used. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Sources: complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Issued: as reported to the Home Office by the Court Service. from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Breached: OCJR Court Proceedings Database. forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Crime: Firearms Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit

Antisocial Behaviour Orders: East of England Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) fatal and (b) Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home non-fatal firearm offences in respect of which legal Department how many anti-social behaviour orders proceedings have been completed have been committed have been (a) imposed and (b) breached in each police within 100 yards of the entrance to a prison in England force area in the East of England in each year since and Wales in each of the last 12 years for which figures such orders were introduced. [277777] are available; how many of the victims or intended victims of such offences had been visiting or were Mr. Alan Campbell: Information held by the Ministry about to visit the prison in question; and if she will of Justice showing the number of antisocial behaviour make a statement. [275243] 813W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 814W

Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 13 May 2009]: I Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the am afraid that the information requested is not held Home Department how many visa applications were centrally. (a) reviewed by entry clearance officers in Pakistan and (b) processed by the visa hub in Abu Dhabi Departmental Manpower between the entry into service of the Abu Dhabi visa hub and 1 March 2009. [272988] Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many staff based at his Alan Johnson: All applications lodged in Pakistan are Department’s Abu Dhabi hub are allocated to seen by an entry clearance officer based in Islamabad so reviewing visa applications from Pakistan; [272746] that a travel document forgery check can be carried out (2) how many staff based at the Abu Dhabi visa hub irrespective of where the decision is being made. Between are allocated to reviewing visa applications from the Abu Dhabi hub coming into service on 27 October 2008 and 1 March 2009 19,995 applications have been Pakistan. [272990] sent to Islamabad for a decision and a total of 19,497 Alan Johnson: There are 33 entry clearance officers applications have been sent to the hub in Abu Dhabi for and nine entry clearance managers working in the hub a decision. in Abu Dhabi. They are processing work from Pakistan, European Arrest Warrants Abu Dhabi and Bahrain. Staff are transferable between all three work streams in the hub and are allocated Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the duties according to workloads. Home Department how many people brought to jurisdictions in the UK under the provisions of a Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the European arrest warrant have subsequently been Home Department how many visa entry clearance convicted of an offence; what the name and nationality officers are employed at (a) Lahore and (b) Karachi; of each offender was; for what offence each was and how many were employed at each post in each of convicted; in which court and on what date in each the last five years. [272750] case; what sentence each received; and from which member state each was removed to the UK. [265787] Alan Johnson: There are no visa sections in Karachi or Lahore. The visa section in Karachi was closed in Alan Johnson [holding answer 24 March 2009]: The September 2007 and work was transferred to the visa Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) and the Crown section in Islamabad at that time. At the time of closure, Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) (for Scotland) the visa section in Karachi employed one entry clearance are the designated authorities for the receipt and manager, eight (and a half) entry clearance officers and transmission of European Arrest Warrants (EAWs) in one risk assessment officer. The visa section in Lahore the UK. In the UK, EAWs can only be issued by closed over five years ago (shortly after 9/11). appropriately designated judicial authorities. SOCA’s involvement in EAW cases ceases at the point Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the of surrender to the UK and does not include recording Home Department (1) how many staff are employed at the outcome of criminal cases in the UK. the Abu Dhabi visa hub; [272989] To retrieve this information would entail liaising with (2) how many staff are employed in the visa hub in all the UK’s prosecuting authorities and courts and Abu Dhabi. [272745] would incur disproportionate cost. Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Alan Johnson: On 12 May 2009 there are 101 staff Home Department how many European warrants for working in the Abu Dhabi hub. the arrest of (a) British citizens and (b) non-British Entry Clearances: Pakistan citizens have been received from other EU member states; and how many people have been removed under Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the such warrants since January 2008, broken down by (i) Home Department how many visa applications were category of offence and (ii) member state of received in (a) Karachi and (b) Lahore consulate in destination. [265788] the last 12 months for which figures are available. Alan Johnson [holding answer 24 March 2009]: SOCA [272743] and COPFS (for Scotland) are the designated authorities for the receipt and transmission for European arrest Alan Johnson: During the financial year 2008-09, the warrants (EAWs) in the UK. The number of EAWs UK Visa Application Centres in Karachi and Lahore issued to the UK (excluding Scotland) since 1 January received 26,364 and 53,189 visa applications, respectively. 2006 is:

Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Total Home Department what percentage of visa EAWs issued to UK EAW surrenders applications from Pakistani nationals are checked for fraud by entry clearance officers at (a) Karachi and 2006 13,298 1151 (b) Lahore. [272751] 2007 12,480 2320 2008 13,230 2515 Alan Johnson: There are no entry clearance officers January-April 2009 11,329 2165 posted to Karachi or Lahore. All applications submitted 1 Several member states will issue EAWs to more than one member state if the in Pakistan are dealt with in Islamabad, Abu Dhabi or person’s exact whereabouts is not known. A large number of EAWs received by SOCA therefore turn out to have no connection with the UK. London. Fraud checks are carried out in Islamabad on 2 There may be occasions where logistics dictate that the surrender of a person 100 per cent. of applications submitted in Pakistan. arrested in Scotland takes place in England and is effected by SOCA. 815W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 816W

It is not possible from current systems to provide Organised Crime Agency spent on work undertaken in data broken down by nationality, category of offence or co-operation with (a) Europol and (b) Interpol in the member state of destination. This would require a last period for which figures are available. [276563] manual examination of all files and incur disproportionate cost. Mr. Alan Campbell: The information is as follows:

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Spent on work undertaken (£) Home Department how many European warrants for the arrest of (a) British citizens and (b) non-British (a) Europol citizens her Department has issued; and how many Subscriptions paid in 2008-09 7,812,285 people have been removed to the UK under such SOCA Liaison Office at Europol 595,415 warrants since January 2008, broken down by (i) Total 8,407,700 category of offence and (ii) member state to which the warrant was issued. [265789] (b) Interpol Subscriptions paid in 2008-09 2,487,314 Alan Johnson [holding answer 24 March 2009]: In SOCA staff at Interpol 212,576 2008 SOCA transmitted 218 European arrest warrants Total 2,699,890 (EAWs) to other member states and between January and April 2009, SOCA transmitted 86 EAWs. These figures are subject to final audit. SOCA is the The Home Office does not issue EAWs. They are UK gateway for both Europol and Interpol and the issued by designated judicial authorities such as the subscription costs are for UK law enforcement as a Crown Prosecution Service and COPFS for Scotland. whole. These are then transmitted by SOCA or COPFS to the Many SOCA operations and projects involve relevant member state for execution. collaboration with Europol, Interpol and other partners, In 2008, 96 individuals for whom SOCA had transmitted but this work is not costed separately. an EAW, either during 2008 or earlier were returned to Police: Surveillance the UK. Between January and April 2009 27 individuals were returned under the EAW procedure. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the It is not possible from current systems to provide Home Department pursuant to the answer of data broken down by nationality, category of offence or 24 February 2009, Official Report, column 688W, on member state to which the warrant was sent. This police: surveillance, whether he has completed his would require a manual examination of all files and consideration of the publication of a non-restricted hence disproportionate cost. version of the guidance on the lawful and effective use of covert techniques. [278462] Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many European warrants his Mr. Hanson: Guidance on the Lawful and Effective (a) Department has issued for the arrest of UK Use of Covert Techniques programme, which includes (b) nationals and non-UK nationals who have escaped an overarching guidance manual and a more recent from prison; how many people have been removed to guidance manual aimed at officers investigating local the UK as a result; with what offences they were volume crime and disorder, contains details of covert charged; and to which member states each warrant was techniques and as such is classified as restricted. It issued. [265844] therefore cannot be placed in the Library. Alan Johnson [holding answer 24 March 2009]: EAWs Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 are issued by the appropriately designated judicial authority and transmitted by the Serious Organised Crime Agency. David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for the To retrieve this information would entail liaising with Home Department what recent representations he has all the UK’s prosecuting authorities and courts and received from (a) the Association of Electricity would incur disproportionate cost. Producers and (b) Drax Power Limited on the use of powers under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Members: Correspondence Act 2005. [276537]

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Alan Johnson [holding answer 20 May 2009]: The the Home Department when he plans to reply to the Home Office has not received recently any direct letters to him of 20 January and 16 February 2009 from representations on this matter from the organisations the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with the hon. Member mentions, but is aware of the issues regards to Mrs H Jebably. [268025] both have raised with the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Alan Johnson: My right hon. Friend the former Home Secretary (Jacqui Smith), wrote to the right hon. Member Sexual Offences: Essex on 20 April 2009. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the Organised Crime: International Cooperation Home Department how many sex offenders have been subject to multi-agency public protection arrangements Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in each of the last Home Department how much the Serious and three years. [274244] 817W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 818W

Mr. Alan Campbell: Data on MAPPA management Surveillance: Disclosure of Information and on the number of registered sexual offenders in England and Wales are available in the annual published Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the MAPPA reports Home Department if he will place in the Library a http://www.probation.justice.gov.uk/output/page30.asp copy of his Department’s guidance on the management Data on MAPPA management is not broken down of covert human intelligence sources with any elements below area level. However, for Essex, the number of which would prohibit disclosure redacted. [278359] registered sexual offenders managed via MAPPA meetings between 1 April and 31 March is as follows: Mr. Hanson: The existing statutory Code of Practice on Covert Human Intelligence Sources, which came Number of registered sexual offenders into force in 2002, is a published document and copies are available in the House Library. A revised draft 2005-06 21 version of the code is included in the consultation 2006-07 28 document “Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000: 2007-08 72 Consolidating Orders and Codes of Practice” which was published on 17 April 2009. Copies were placed in The increase in the 2007-08 figure was due to a review the House Library and are also available through the of the MAPPA level of cases being managed rather Home Office website. than an increase in the number of sexual offenders in Essex. This is fully explained in the 2007-08 Essex Theft: Bicycles MAPPA report which is available on http://www.probation.homeoffice.gov.uk/files/pdf/Essex%2 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for the 0MAPPA%202008%20Report.pdf Home Department how many bicycle thefts were reported in each police authority area in each year Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the since 1997. [278299] Home Department how many individuals have been prosecuted for offences relating to sexual exploitation Mr. Alan Campbell: The available information relates under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 in (a) Essex and to offences of theft of a pedal cycle recorded by the (b) Castle Point. [277193] police and is given in the following tables: Table 1: Recorded offences of theft of a pedal cycle, 1997 Mr. Alan Campbell: The number of persons proceeded Police force area Number against at magistrates courts for selected offences under Avon and Somerset 5,279 the Sexual Offences Act 2003 in Essex from 2004 to Bedfordshire 1,327 2007 (latest available) are given in the table. Cambridgeshire 6,195 Data are given in the table for Essex police force area. Cheshire 2,191 It is not possible to further break down data to constituency Cleveland 1,955 level (i.e. Castle Point) as this level of detail is not held Cumbria 996 centrally. Derbyshire 2,287 Devon and Cornwall 2,176 Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. Dorset 2,068 Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for selected offences Durham 1,262 1 2 3,4 under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 , in Essex, 2004 -07 Dyfed-Powys 304 Essex police force area Essex 3,251 Number Gloucestershire 2,126 2004 34 Greater Manchester 6,895 2005 49 Gwent 840 2006 47 Hampshire 6,207 2007 20 Hertfordshire 1,460 1 Includes the following statutes: Humberside 6,963 sections 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8(1)(2)(3), 9(a)(b)(c)(i)(ii)(1)(a)(b)(c)(i)(ii)(2)(3), Kent 3,106 10(1)(a)(b)(c)(i)(ii)(2)(3), 11(1)(a)(b)(c)(d)(i)(ii), 12(1)(a)(b)(c)(i)(ii), 13, 14, 15, Lancashire 3,839 16(1)(a)(b)(c)(e)(i)(ii)(2)(3)(4)(5), 17(1)(a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(i)(ii)(2)(3)(4)(5), 18(1)(a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(f)(i)(ii)(2)(3)(4)(5), 19(1 )(a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(f)(i)(ii)(2)(3)(4)(5), Leicestershire 3,424 25(1)(a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(i)(ii)(4)(a)(b)(5)(6), 26(1)(a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(i)(ii)(4)(a)(b)(5)(6), Lincolnshire 2,142 47(1)(a)(b)(c)(i)(ii)(3)(4)(a)(b)(5)(6), 48(1)(a)(b)(i)(ii)(2), 49(1)(a)(b)(i)(ii)(2), London, City of 157 50(1)(a)(b)(i)(ii)(2), 52, 53, 57, 58, 59; 2 The Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on 1 May 2004. Merseyside 2,961 3 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal Metropolitan police 17,276 offence for which they were dealt with. For example, when a defendant has been Norfolk 2,503 found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for Northamptonshire 1,453 two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory Northumbria 3,675 maximum penalty is the most severe. North Wales 1,083 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted North Yorkshire 2,951 from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Nottinghamshire 4,247 forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection South Wales 2,464 processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. South Yorkshire 2,811 Source: Staffordshire 2,145 Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit 819W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 820W

Table 1: Recorded offences of theft of a pedal cycle, 1997 Table 1: Recorded offences of theft of a pedal cycle, 1997 Police force area Number Police force area Number

Suffolk 1,551 West Mercia 2,849 Surrey 1,154 West Midlands 5,757 Sussex 4,211 West Yorkshire 3,947 Thames Valley 6,730 Wiltshire 1,452 Warwickshire 1,422 England and Wales 139,092

Table 2: Recorded offences of theft of a pedal cycle, 1998-99 to 2001-021,2 Number Police force area 1998-99 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02

Avon and Somerset 4,730 4,289 3,698 3,555 Bedfordshire 1,241 1,206 952 870 Cambridgeshire 5,606 5,513 4,373 4,171 Cheshire 1,940 2,202 1,865 1,666 Cleveland 1,624 1,702 1,420 1,460 Cumbria 1,001 988 716 691 Derbyshire 1,900 1,755 1,529 1,505 Devon and Cornwall 2,084 2,087 1,667 1,563 Dorset 281 246 265 268 Durham 2,126 2,012 1,634 1,522 Dyfed-Powys 990 1,107 916 867 Essex 2,955 3,207 2,635 2,299 Gloucestershire 1,899 2,204 1,796 1,691 Greater Manchester 5,948 6,203 5,190 5,007 Gwent 824 803 676 557 Hampshire 5,878 5,807 4,730 4,455 Hertfordshire 1,380 1,416 1,373 1,339 Humberside 5,967 5,730 4,775 4,330 Kent 2,450 2,383 2,175 1,821 Lancashire 3,255 3,042 2,793 2,702 Leicestershire 3,050 2,762 2,323 2,132 Lincolnshire 2,174 2,318 1,879 1,750 London, City of 258 250 203 334 Merseyside 2,440 2,634 2,064 1,678 Metropolitan police 17,092 18,659 14,470 14,340 Norfolk 2,349 2,400 2,102 1,926 Northamptonshire 1,657 1,530 1,229 1,146 Northumbria 2,758 3,187 2,947 2,468 North Wales 1,100 1,130 950 896 North Yorkshire 2,948 2,600 2,175 2,442 Nottinghamshire 4,344 4,296 3,749 3,555 South Wales 2,278 2,313 1,829 1,951 South Yorkshire 2,520 2,668 2,219 1,891 Staffordshire 1,814 2,061 1,724 1,667 Suffolk 1,940 2,023 1,709 1,728 Surrey 1,193 1,189 1,388 1,301 Sussex 3,895 3,686 3,062 2,959 Thames Valley 6,787 7,992 6,000 5,346 Warwickshire 1,490 1,284 1,100 1,060 West Mercia 2,735 2,518 2,071 1,903 West Midlands 5,012 5,044 4,198 4,004 West Yorkshire 3,107 3,377 2,773 2,673 Wiltshire 1,537 1,417 1,167 1,224 England and Wales 128,557 131,240 108,509 102,713 1 The coverage was extended and counting rules revised from 1998-99. Figures from that date are not directly comparable with those for 1997. 2 The data in this table are prior to the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for later years.

Table 3: Recorded offences of theft of a pedal cycle, 2002-03 to 2007-081, 2 Number Police force area 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Avon and Somerset 3,090 3,043 3,713 4,131 4,311 3,818 Bedfordshire 719 898 881 1,073 965 1,000 British Transport police 2,737 2,947 3,384 4,127 4,734 4,408 Cambridgeshire 3,975 4,374 4,528 4,442 4,121 3,802 821W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 822W

Table 3: Recorded offences of theft of a pedal cycle, 2002-03 to 2007-081, 2 Number Police force area 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Cheshire 1,551 1,746 1,565 1,731 1,795 1,558 Cleveland 1,028 1,116 1,237 1,255 1,132 1,217 Cumbria 606 802 850 862 780 802 Derbyshire 1,301 1,358 1,131 1,156 1,065 1,135 Devon and Cornwall 1,443 1,712 1,825 1,792 1,871 1,775 Dorset 1,624 1,843 1,602 1,555 1,806 1,731 Durham 726 827 815 802 815 702 Dyfed-Powys 230 330 388 308 257 295 Essex 2,100 2,462 2,775 2,875 2,676 2,625 Gloucestershire 1,588 1,653 1,322 1,577 1,516 1,345 Greater Manchester 4,598 4,220 4,198 4,731 4,597 4,679 Gwent 632 624 570 600 564 520 Hampshire 4,253 4,545 4,869 5,843 5,839 4,988 Hertfordshire 1,397 1,484 1,656 1,767 1,826 1,641 Humberside 3,736 3,777 3,195 3,281 2,978 2,894 Kent 1,609 1,829 2,020 1,884 1,888 2,125 Lancashire 2,505 2,525 2,594 2,694 2,784 2,460 Leicestershire 1,754 1,869 1,879 1,893 1,932 1,989 Lincolnshire 1,810 1,623 1,766 1,736 1,604 1,662 London, City of 427 355 319 336 314 289 Merseyside 1,445 1,569 1,673 1,726 1,854 1,744 Metropolitan police 15,812 19,261 19,317 21,238 18,648 17,183 Norfolk 1,888 2,108 1,972 2,019 1,877 1,780 Northamptonshire 1,053 1,157 1,318 1,152 1,202 1,107 Northumbria 2,387 2,644 2,405 2,362 2,338 2,129 North Wales 850 783 773 617 681 662 North Yorkshire 2,331 2,563 1,991 2,041 2,020 1,796 Nottinghamshire 2,608 2,744 2,601 2,876 3,026 2,775 South Wales 1,717 1,822 1,978 1,762 1,810 1,866 South Yorkshire 1,787 1,346 1,421 1,725 1,690 1,619 Staffordshire 1,235 1,285 1,232 1,270 1,319 1,276 Suffolk 1,439 1,457 1,653 1,828 1,759 1,653 Surrey 1,085 1,297 1,331 1,463 1,679 1,539 Sussex 2,329 2,683 2,811 3,165 3,097 2,792 Thames Valley 5,264 5,547 5,879 5,994 5,688 5,239 Warwickshire 1,001 1,076 878 1,005 1,028 845 West Mercia 1,484 1,559 1,596 1,592 1,577 1,639 West Midlands 3,301 3,229 2,793 3,132 3,233 3,092 West Yorkshire 2,250 2,374 2,175 2,521 2,495 2,357 Wiltshire 1,050 1,001 1,074 1,253 1,335 1,446 England and Wales 97,755 105,467 105,953 113,192 110,526 103,999 1 The data in this table take account of the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for earlier years. 2 Includes British Transport police from 2002-03 onwards.

Travelling People (2) how much expenditure was incurred by his Department in respect of the Cabinet meeting in Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Glasgow on 16 April 2009; [273939] Home Department if he will place in the Library a copy of the most recent guidance issued by his (3) what expenditure on (a) travel, (b) Department to police forces on policing unauthorised accommodation and (c) food (i) he and (ii) officials in Traveller camps. [278358] his Department incurred in connection with the Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. [273940] Mr. Hanson: The Association of Chief Police Officers published new guidance on unauthorised encampments Mr. Bradshaw: My right hon. Friend the Member for in January of this year. A copy of this guidance has Leigh (Andy Burnham) attended Cabinet on 16 April been placed in the Library. 2009 as the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. Total expenditure incurred by my Department was £607.42. This was incurred for travel costs only. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Three car journeys were undertaken. Cabinet: Glasgow For information relating to Cabinet and public Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 April 2009 I Culture, Media and Sport (1) what car journeys he refer the hon. Member to the answer by my right hon. took in attending the Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June 2009, Official 16 April 2009; [273938] Report, column 487W. 823W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 824W

Departmental Data Protection incurred on staff surveys in each of the last five years; and which organisation carried out each such survey. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for [265387] Culture, Media and Sport how many notifications his Department made to the Information Commissioner in Mr. Sutcliffe: The annual cost of staff surveys for the the year ended 30 April 2009 in respect of the loss or named organisations (as provided by those organisations) mishandling of personal information or data; what was in each of the last five years is set out in the table. All notified in each such case; and how many individuals figures include VAT. The figures include the costs of were the subjects of personal information or data in main staff surveys and do not include ad hoc requests respect of which such notifications were made. [278729] for information. Cost of survey and organisation involved Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department has not made any such £ notifications to the Information Commissioner. 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Arts 0 128,000 0 223,400 218,300 James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Council Culture, Media and Sport how many officials in (a) his England Department and (b) its agencies have been (i) disciplined and (ii) dismissed for (A) breaches of data Sport 321,761 0 0 0 0 protection requirements and (B) inappropriate use of England personal or sensitive data in the last 12 months. [278730] UK Sport 000043,450

Mr. Sutcliffe: There have been no officials in the English 000539,550 0 Department for Culture, Media and Sport or the Royal Heritage Parks (i) disciplined or (ii) dismissed for (A) breaches of data protection requirements and (B) inappropriate use The Royal 00065,399.12 79,533.52 of personal or sensitive data in the last 12 months. Parks 712,638.70 — Departmental Stationery 1 The Leadership Factor. 2 Ipsos Mori (A). 3 GfK NOP. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 4 Fargus Consulting Partnership. Media and Sport how much his Department spent on 5 TalentPulse. the purchase of (a) recycled office supplies in the last 6 ORC International. 7 Atkins Management 12 months and (b) printer ink cartridges in each of the . Note: last five years. [274205] A—The 2007-08 and 2008-09 costs were part of one survey carried out over two financial years. Mr. Sutcliffe: The information is as follows: Employment Tribunals Service (a) The Department spent the following amounts on recycled office supplies in the last three years. Information Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for prior to 2006 is not available. Culture, Media and Sport how many actions under employment law have been brought against his £ Department in each of the last three years; how many such actions were brought under each category of 2008 7,048.46 action; and how many such actions were contested by 2007 4,020.10 his Department at an employment tribunal. [277418] 2006 3,919.23 (b) The Department has not bought any printer ink Mr. Sutcliffe: I am not able to provide the information cartridges in the last three years. Information prior to requested. 2006 is not available. It is standard statistical practise in DCMS not to release statistical information pertaining to individual Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, members of staff when the numbers of staff involved Media and Sport what proportion of office supplies are less then five. This is done to protect individuals’ purchased by his Department were recycled products in identities. the latest period for which figures are available. [275349] Equality: Broadcasting

Mr. Sutcliffe: In 2008 the Department spent £35,452.77 Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for on office supplies, of which £7,048.46 was for the purchase Culture, Media and Sport what discussions he has had of recycled products. This equates to 20 per cent. with the Minister for Women and Equality on the likely effects of the provisions of the Equality Bill on the Departmental Surveys commissioning, content and broadcast of television and radio programmes. [278198] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what expenditure (a) Arts Mr. Bradshaw [holding answer 8 June 2009]: Officials Council England, (b) Sport England, (c) UK Sport, from my Department and from the Government Equalities (d) English Heritage and (e) the Royal Parks Agency Office have had detailed discussions about any effect 825W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 826W that the Equality Bill may have on the commissioning, The Government are investing at least £780 million content and broadcast of television and radio programmes. over 2008 to 2011 to develop sport opportunities for all The Government policy is that the new equality duty young people through our PE and Sport Strategy for should not apply to the commissioning, content and Young People. 90 per cent. of pupils now do two hours broadcast of programmes. of high quality PE and school sport, and with delivery partners the Youth Sport Trust and Sport England, we Gambling: Internet are mapping provision of the five-hour offer in every School Sport Partnership area. Over the past year, we have rolled out a number of new programmes to get Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for more young people doing sport: Sport Unlimited is a Culture, Media and Sport what discussions he has had £36 million initiative which, by 2010-11, aims to give with his French counterpart on the effect on UK 900,000 more 11 to 19-year-olds opportunities to take companies of proposed changes to internet gambling part in sports that interest them most outside of school; legislation in France. [277470] we now have a new network of school sport coaches; a network of 226 competition managers are increasing [holding answer 1 June 2009]: Mr. Sutcliffe There competition between schools; and we have delivered have been no formal discussions with French Ministers 250 new multi-sport clubs for young disabled people. on the effect on UK companies of proposed changes to internet gambling legislation in France. As set out in the Legacy Action Plan, a ministerial sports legacy board has been set up and met earlier this However, I met with my French counterpart on 3 June year. It brings together, for the first time, all those who 2009 to informally discuss a number of sport and have a role to play in delivering the sports legacy across gambling related issues. the UK—the UK Government, the Devolved Administrations, Sport England, UK Sport, the Youth Licensing Laws: Fees and Charges Sport Trust, London Organising Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games and others. The group Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for will enable all of us to work together to maximise the Culture, Media and Sport what timetable has been opportunity which the Olympics and Paralympics provides established for action on the recommendations of the to deliver a world leading sporting nation and get more Independent Licensing Fees Review Panel in respect of children, young people and adults participating regularly the shortfall between local authority costs and income. in sport. [278670] Public Houses Mr. Sutcliffe: We hope to be in a position to announce our response shortly. As you will appreciate, our response Mr. Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for must be agreed across Government and this has taken Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of longer than we had anticipated. We will accompany any 27 April 2009, Official Report, column 1003W, on the proposals to change the fee structure with plans to community pubs inquiry report, when he expects the review them after an appropriate period, and consult on Government’s response to the community pubs inquiry them before they are implemented. report to be published. [278711]

Olympic Games 2012: Facilities Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 8 June 2009]: The Government have now published their response to the Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for community pubs inquiry report. Hard copies are available Culture, Media and Sport what progress has been made in the Vote and Printed Paper Office, and it is also in developing the community sports legacy from the available on the DCMS website at: London 2012 Olympics; and if he will make a http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/publications/ statement. [278309] 6137.aspx

Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 8 June 2009]: Since the Sports: Young People publication of the Government’s Legacy Action Plan in June 2008, there has been significant progress on delivering Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for our aims for a lasting community sport legacy from the Culture, Media and Sport how much of the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics. £783 million allocated to the PE and Sport Strategy for In December 2008 Sport England announced Young People in 2009-10 to 2011-12 has been spent. £480 million of funding over the next four years to [277135] national governing bodies of sport to help deliver their outcome of 1 million more people playing sport regularly, Mr. Sutcliffe: £783 million was allocated to the PE as part of our legacy aim to get 2 million people more and Sport Strategy for Young People for the current active. spending round 2008-11, channelled through the Sport England have also announced several new streams Department for Children, Schools and Families and of lottery funding, including a £10 million themed Sport England. round aimed at boosting sport participation in rural For the financial year 2008-09, the Department for communities, and a £5 million Innovation Fund seeking Children, Schools and Families have advised that they new ways of getting people playing more sport—as part have spent £151,300,000 and Sport England have advised of a further investment of up to £220 million over the that they have spent £22,655,000. Both figures are subject next four years. to audit and verification. 827W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 828W

Television Private Members’ Bills: Parliamentary Procedure

Mr. Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Amess: To ask the Leader of the House if she Media and Sport what recent discussions his will bring forward proposals to amend Standing Orders Department has had with Ofcom on a timetable for the to provide that in respect of private members’ Bills on completion of its investigation into the pay television Fridays no fewer than 20 hon. Members rising in their market; and when he expects Ofcom to publish a third places, at or after the moment of interruption, shall be consultation outlining potential remedies to structural required to constitute objection to further proceeding; problems identified in the market. [277834] and if she will make a statement. [278448]

Mr. Bradshaw: Competition matters are the responsibility Barbara Keeley: My right hon. Friend has no plans to of my right hon. Friend, the Minister of State for do so. Business, Innovation and Skills. However, my officials have discussed the timetable of this investigation with Ofcom and I understand that they expect to make a DEFENCE statement on their progress and current findings by the end of June. Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations

Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence LEADER OF THE HOUSE whether the deployment of the Headquarters of 6 (UK) Division to command the International Members: Allowances Security Assistance Force’s Regional Command (South) from November 2009 to November 2010 will Roger Berry: To ask the Leader of the House what change the establishment number for UK troops in discussions she has had with the House authorities on Afghanistan. [274969] the interpretation of the requirement in the Additional Costs Allowance rules, paragraph 3.11.1 of the 2006 Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The deployment of the Headquarters Green Book, that ’the location of your main home will of 6 (UK) Division will be managed within the approved normally be a matter of fact. If you have more than UK force levels in Afghanistan as announced by the one home, your main home will normally be the one Prime Minister in his statement to the House on 29 April where you spend more nights than any other’; what 2009, Official Report, column 871. external (a) legal and (b) accountancy advice (i) has Armed Forces: Deployment been obtained and (ii) is planned to be obtained on that interpretation; and if she will make a statement. Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for [278162] Defence what proportion of UK military equipment Barbara Keeley: The interpretation of the rules governing formerly deployed to Iraq is intended to be (a) Members’ allowances is a matter for the House authorities. redeployed to Afghanistan and (b) gifted to the Iraqi The Standards and Privileges Committee considered armed forces; and if he will make a statement. [278044] the rules relating to the designation of main homes in Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 8 June 2009]: its Fifteenth Report of 2007-08 (HC 1127). It is the Information on the proportion of military equipment responsibility of individual Members to ensure that the that was formerly deployed to Iraq but which may be designation of their main home complies with the rules redeployed to Afghanistan is not held centrally and of the House. could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The Office of the Leader of the House has taken no With respect to items previously gifted to the Government external legal or accountancy advice on this subject and of Iraq, I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by has no plans to do so. my predecessor on 12 May 2009, Official Report, Roger Berry: To ask the Leader of the House what column 748W, to the right hon. and learned Member discussions she has had with the House authorities on for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). the interpretation of the requirement in the Additional Armed Forces: Fuels Costs Allowance rules, paragraphs 3.1.1 and 3.10.2 of the 2006 Green Book, that expenses must be ’wholly, Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State exclusively and necessarily’ incurred for the purpose of for Defence what the cost was of transporting each an hon. Member performing parliamentary duties; type of fuel to each zone in which British troops are what external (a) legal and (b) accountancy advice (i) engaged in military action in each of the last three has been obtained and (ii) is planned to be obtained on years. [272799] the interpretation of those words; and if she will make a statement. [278163] Mr. Quentin Davies: This information is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Barbara Keeley: The interpretation of the rules governing cost. Members’ allowances is a matter for the House authorities. It is the responsibility of individual Members to ensure Armed Forces: Pensions that their claims comply with the rules of the House. The Office of the Leader of the House has taken no Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence external legal or accountancy advice on this subject and how many service personnel received overpayments in has no plans to do so. their pension provision in each of the last 10 years; for 829W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 830W what reasons the overpayments were made; what the Gun thefts Gun losses reasons were for the time taken to identify the error in making payments; and if he will make a statement. 2004 13 1 [278242] 2005 0 0 2006 0 0 Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 8 June 2009]: In 2007 0 0 the last 10 years there have been three incidents of 2008 0 2 armed forces pension overpayments caused by systemic 20091 42 errors. The majority of these errors stem from the 1 Up to 5 June 2009. complexity of the scheme legislation and required extensive programmes of investigation to identify individuals affected Cabinet: Glasgow and take corrective action. The first was in 2001 when the National Audit Office Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for identified 2,300 cases where the national insurance Defence how many (a) special advisers and (b) abatement had not been applied. All the affected pensions officials of his Department accompanied him to were corrected by 11 April 2005 and recovery of the Glasgow for the Cabinet meeting on 16 April 2009. overpayments made was not sought. [273913] In 2006, an error in the transfer of information Mr. Bob Ainsworth: My predecessor was accompanied between the former Veterans Agency and the former by one private secretary. Armed Forces Personnel Administration Agency resulted in 98 AFPS overpayments. All errors were corrected by For information relating to the Cabinet and public 31 March 2008 and recovery of the overpayments was engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 April I refer not sought. the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June 2009, Official In December 2008, the guaranteed minimum pension Report, column 487W. (GMP) error identified 4,716 AFPS pensions that required correcting. The majority have now been corrected and Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for the recovery of the overpayments was not sought. Defence what car journeys he took in attending the Overpayments made on an individual basis are only Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. [273914] held for the last three years and are provided in the following table. Mr. Bob Ainsworth: My predecessor made three journeys by car during the visit. These were from the airport to Reason for overpayment Number visit a defence contractor at Govan shipyard, from Late notification of death 10,124 Govan to the Cabinet at the Scottish Exhibition and National fraud initiative 147 Conference Centre (SECC), and from the SECC to the Transfer to full-time Reserve Service 53 airport. Pension sharing on divorce 43 For information relating to the Cabinet and public Others1 109 engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 April I refer Total 10,476 the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. 1 Combination of revised pension awards, payments to incorrect bank accounts Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June 2009, Official non-entitlement to pension after remarriage, overpayment child pensions and others. Report, column 487W. Army: Lost Property Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much expenditure was incurred by his Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Department in respect of the Cabinet meeting in Defence how many Army (a) guns and (b) other Glasgow on 16 April 2009; [273915] weapons have (i) been stolen and (ii) otherwise gone (2) what expenditure on (a) travel, (b) missing in each year since 1997. [278451] accommodation and (c) food (i) he and (ii) officials in his Department incurred in connection with the Bill Rammell: The following table shows the number Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. [273916] of Army guns (pistols, rifles, machine guns, shotguns and cadet rifles) reported stolen or lost since 1997. No Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The only direct expenditure by weapons other than those defined above were reported the Ministry of Defence was the purchase of two return stolen or lost in this period. These figures exclude London-Glasgow plane tickets for my predecessor and information from incidents on operations, which are an accompanying official, totalling £767. not held centrally and could be provided only at For information relating to the Cabinet and public disproportionate cost. engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 April I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Gun thefts Gun losses Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June 2009, Official 1997 6 2 Report, column 487W. 1998 6 3 1999 9 2 Departmental Buildings 2000 28 2 2001 8 2 Susan Kramer: To ask the Secretary of State for 2002 12 4 Defence what (a) land and (b) buildings his 2003 3 2 Department has sold since 1997. [278021] 831W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 832W

Mr. Kevan Jones: Records of transactions prior to other stakeholders and an initial symposium was held 2000 are not held centrally and could be provided only on 25 March 2009. It is our intention to consult widely at disproportionate cost. I will write to the hon. Member as the review develops, in line with normal practice. Any with the information on land and buildings sold since hon. Member who has shown an interest in this review 2000 as soon as this data has been verified and collated. will be invited to respond to any consultation before final decisions are made. Kenya: Piracy As with other policy developments and consultations, the outcome of the review, and a summary of responses Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to consultation, will be published. pursuant to the answer of 28 April 2009, Official Report, column 1159W, on Somalia: piracy, how long the eight suspects transferred to Kenyan custody were held on Royal Navy vessels before being transferred; NORTHERN IRELAND and if he will make a statement. [273045] Police Service of Northern Ireland: Manpower Bill Rammell: The eight suspects were detained on board Royal Fleet Auxiliary Wave Knight for five days Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for while transiting to a Kenyan port, before being transferred Northern Ireland how many (a) regular police officers to Kenyan authorities for prosecution under the provisions and (b) reservists of each rank served in the Police of a memorandum of understanding. Prior to this they Service of Northern Ireland in each of the last five had been detained for three days on board the pirated years; and if he will make a statement. [277748] dhow under Royal Navy escort. Paul Goggins: That is an operational matter for the Special Forces: Defence Equipment Chief Constable. I have asked him to reply directly to the hon. Lady, and a copy of his letter will be placed in Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for the Library of the House. Defence if he will make it his policy to provide for Police Service of Northern Ireland: Museums and counter-sniper systems similar to those used by US Galleries forces in Iraq to be used by British armed forces. [277910] Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what criteria are applied by the Mr. Quentin Davies: We do have a shot detection museum at the Police Service of Northern Ireland capability, the details of which I am withholding for headquarters on whether to accept donations of (a) reasons of operational security. Royal Ulster Constabulary and (b) B Specials Special Forces: Finance memorabilia. [277739] Paul Goggins: That is an operational matter for the Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Chief Constable. I have asked him to reply directly to Defence what steps he plans to take in respect of the hon. Lady, and a copy of his letter will be placed in funding for the UK special forces in advance of the the Library of the House. implementation of the rebalancing strategy for the armed forces. [277909] Prison Service: Misconduct

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: It is the long-standing policy of Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for this and previous Governments not to comment on Northern Ireland which offences by prison service staff matters relating to UK special forces, as their disclosure constitute gross misconduct warranting termination of would, or would likely to prejudice the capability, employment. [277749] effectiveness or security of the armed forces. Paul Goggins: It is not possible to list every type of War Pensions behaviour that might constitute gross misconduct. However, the Northern Ireland Prison Service Code of Conduct Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for and Discipline gives examples of the type of conduct Defence (1) what recent progress his Department has that will normally be regarded as gross misconduct and made in its review of the future of war pensions which will normally result in dismissal for a first offence. committees; whether the review will take account of These are: the views of disabled veterans and their families served serious unprofessional conduct, for example trafficking or any by such committees; and whether hon. Members will act of violence involving a prisoner or other member of staff, be given the opportunity to comment on the or damage of property; conclusions of the review before final decisions are instances of theft, fraud or any other act involving dishonesty taken; [276732] at work; (2) if he will make it his policy to publish the abuse of official position; outcomes of his review of the future of war pensions serious acts of negligence causing appreciable loss, damage to committees. [276846] Prison Service property or injury; insubordination liable to lead to serious disorder or loss of Mr. Kevan Jones: A review of the War Pensions control in an establishment; and Committees is currently under way. The review is being serious or persistent acts of harassment including sexual conducted in consultation with the Committees and harassment. 833W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 834W

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for means by which we can secure a positive legacy from the Northern Ireland how many prison officers have been games; our plans for using volunteers on the 2012 (a) suspended and (b) dismissed on grounds of gross programme; how we maximise access to and legacy misconduct in each of the last three years; and for what from the games for disabled people; how we overcome reasons in each case. [277750] challenges in relation to construction of the Olympic Park; as well as the use of new media and technology Paul Goggins: The following table shows the number and legacy of the International Broadcast Centre/Main of prison officers who have been (a) suspended and (b) Press Centre. All resulted in proposals for further actions dismissed on grounds of gross misconduct in the last which are being developed. three years for the reasons stated. Olympic Delivery Authority: Manpower Action Misconduct Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Minister for the Olympics 2006 4 suspensions 1 harassment how many people are employed by the Olympic 2 PSNI criminal investigations Delivery Authority (ODA); what the staffing costs of 1 fraudulent activity involving expenses the ODA were in the last 12 months; and how many ODA staff work on (a) project management, (b) 3 dismissals 1 failure to provide relevant information on legacy planning and (c) financial oversight. [277376] security form 2 subject to criminal proceedings Tessa Jowell: At 30 April 2009 ODA employed 246 staff, permanent, secondments and fixed term, the latter including 2007 2 suspensions 1 interfered with prisoner’s confidential a number of graduates recruited for a 10-month placement correspondence as part of the ODA graduate placement scheme. 1 fraudulent activity involving a prisoner The ODA’s staff costs for the 12 months to 30 April 2009 were £21.5 million, including salary, national insurance 2 dismissals 1 harassment and pension contributions. The staff costs reflect, in part, the need to employ high quality external expertise 1 fraudulent activity involving a prisoner to meet the unique challenge that the Olympics represents—delivering a large and complex programme 2008 17 suspensions 16 neglect of duty to a fixed deadline. This is a successful operation: we are 1 inappropriate relationship with a prisoner on time and within budget. The overall management costs of the Olympic programme are well within industry 2 dismissals 1 interfered with prisoner’s confidential benchmarks for a project of this size. correspondence Of the ODA’s staff 136 are working on project 1 inappropriate relationship with a prisoner management. This includes work on legacy planning. Every project in the programme is considered with legacy in mind, ensuring that legacy requirements are incorporated in design briefs, specifications and business OLYMPICS planning. This approach is designed to ensure that the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games will be Departmental Official Hospitality the catalyst for the regeneration, but it also means that staff are not attributed specifically to legacy planning. Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how The ODA’s Finance and Business Planning team much (a) her Office and (b) the Government Olympic employs 19 staff on financial oversight and who work Executive has spent on (i) conference services and (ii) closely with the Delivery Partner. This excludes internal banqueting services in each year since their creation. Cabinet Office audit services which are provided by [274499] Ernst and Young.

Tessa Jowell: Part of Government Olympic Executive’s Olympic Games 2012 (GOE) role is to develop legacy plans and ensure full economic and social benefits to the United Kingdom. Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics (1) Since its creation the GOE, and the Minister for the what her most recent estimate is of the cost of hosting Olympics’ Office, have spent £225,893 on hosting five Olympic events in the Lower Lea Valley; [278344] conferences—one in Leeds, two in east London and two (2) what her most recent estimate is of the cost of in central London. Two conferences focused on the hosting the London 2012 Olympics white water canoe UK-wide business benefits of London 2012, one on event at River Lee Country Park; [278311] disability, one on volunteering, and one on the International (3) what her most recent estimate is of the cost of Inspiration Programme, which is aimed at transforming hosting London 2012 Olympics events at Earl’s Court. the lives of 12 million children and young people across [278317] 20 developing countries worldwide. The GOE has also spent £4,686 on five dinners Tessa Jowell [holding answer 8 June 2009]: The London hosted by the Minister for the Olympics designed to Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and consult a range of industry, charity and public sector Paralympic Games (LOCOG) has responsibility for leaders and inform our preparations for 2012. These staging the Olympic and Paralympic games at existing events have covered a broad range of issues including venues. The direct costs associated with staging the how to engage young people in our plans for 2012; the events at existing venues come from LOCOG’s revenues 835W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 836W which are primarily derived from commercial sponsorship, 36 month round length broadcast rights, ticket sales and merchandising/ Breast screening unit (percentage) licensing—not from the public purse. There will be attributable costs to the public purse, East Suffolk 97 for example in respect of the security and transport North Staffordshire 97 functions associated with the venue. However these Cornwall 97 costs have not yet been identified separately for individual North Nottinghamshire 97 venues, but they will form part of the overall security Lincolnshire 97 and transport budgets. Canterbury 97 Bolton 96 In respect of the white water canoe course and Eton North Cumbria 96 Manor, which are being constructed by the Olympic North Yorkshire 96 Delivery Authority, the project budgets cannot be disclosed South East London (Greenwich) 96 at the current time owing to reasons of commercial Cambridge and Huntingdon 96 sensitivity. Warwickshire, Solihull and Coventry 96 South Devon 96 Wiltshire 96 HEALTH Maidstone 96 Breast Cancer: Screening Medway 96 Chester 95 Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for South West London 95 Health what the average waiting times for breast cancer King’s Lynn 95 screening in each primary care trust were in the latest South Essex 95 period for which information is available. [278865] Liverpool 94 Newcastle 94 Ann Keen: Waiting times in the NHS Breast Screening James Paget (Great Yarmouth) 94 Programme are measured by the proportion of eligible Oxford 94 women who are recalled for screening within 36 months East Lancashire 93 of their previous screen. This is known as round length. South East London (Kings) 92 Round length is not measured by primary care trust, Chelmsford and Colchester 91 but round length by local breast screening unit ranked Humberside 90 in descending order for quarter 4 2008-09 (January to West Suffolk 90 March 2009) is shown in the following table. North Derbyshire 89 Leicester 88 36 month round length Breast screening unit (percentage) Warrington 87 Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire 87 Doncaster 100 West Sussex 87 Aylesbury 100 Norfolk and Norwich 86 Wycombe 100 Wigan 85 Crewe 99 Jarvis Centre (Guildford) 85 Macclesfield 99 Greater Manchester 84 Wirral 99 Hereford and Worcester 84 Sheffield 99 South Birmingham 84 Rotherham 99 Gloucestershire 79 Epping 99 Nottingham 78 West Devon 99 City and East London 76 Northampton 99 East Devon 75 South Derbyshire 99 City Hospital (Birmingham) 69 Kettering 99 Peterborough 62 Windsor 99 Dudley and Wolverhampton 58 Portsmouth 99 North Lancashire 48 North Yorkshire 98 North and Mid-Hampshire 43 Leeds Wakefield 98 North London 22 Barnsley 98 Brighton 8 West of London 98 Source: Barking and Havering 98 NHS Cancer Screening Programmes Shropshire 98 South Staffordshire 98 Health Bill Avon 98 Dorset 98 Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for Somerset 98 Health if he will place in the Library a copy of (a) his Milton Keynes 98 recent letter regarding the potential costs of Reading 98 compliance with Part 3 of the Health Bill [Lords] sent Southampton and Salisbury 98 to retailers and (b) his Department’s analysis upon Isle of Wight 98 which such estimates were based; and what plans he North Tees 97 has to issue further guidance to retailers on the means Gateshead 97 by which compliance may be achieved prior to the Pennine 97 enactment of legislation. [278312] 837W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 838W

Gillian Merron: The letter relating to the tobacco Gillian Merron: The published impact assessments provisions of the Health Bill sent from Baroness Thornton supporting the Bill include, where relevant, our assessment to the National Federation of Retailers and Newsagents of the likely impact on smaller retailers. dated 6 May 2009 has been placed in the Library. The Copies of the impact assessments supporting the Bill letter contains information on the potential costs of can be obtained from the Vote Office in the House of removing tobacco displays, including cost estimates Commons, and are also available in the Library and on provided to the Department from a Canadian company the Department’s website at: with experience of providing solutions to remove tobacco displays in Canada. Further detail of the analysis of www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ estimate costs of removing tobacco displays, and other PublicationsLegislation/DH_093278 measures contained in the Health Bill, can be found in the impact assessment produced by the Department, Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for copies of which are available from the Vote Office in the Health what recent discussions he has had with the House of Commons or from the Department’s website. Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and The Department is committed to working with retail Regulatory Reform on the provisions contained in Part organisations such as the Association of Convenience 3 of the Health Bill [Lords] and the likely cost of their Stores, the British Retail Consortium and the National implementation. [278316] Federation of Retail Newsagents, along with the Local Authorities Coordinators of Regulatory Services, to Gillian Merron: All relevant provisions in Part 3 of develop and distribute guidance to business with regard the Health Bill were cleared through the usual processes to regulations on tobacco displays. across Government, including with the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department continues to work closely with the Health when he plans to publish in draft form the draft Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory regulations provided for under the provisions of the Reform on the Bill’s provisions, in particular to ensure Health Bill [Lords]. [278313] regulations are developed that will enable cost-effective solutions to be used to remove tobacco displays. Relevant Mr. Mike O’Brien: The timetable for preparing and provisions are supported by full impact assessments. publishing draft regulations which support, where relevant, implementation of the provisions in the Bill will vary and depends on a range of different factors concerning Health Services each provision. We aim to publish draft regulations on the tobacco provisions as soon as possible, subject to the passage of the Health Bill through Parliament. This Sir Peter Soulsby: To ask the Secretary of State for would give businesses adequate lead-in time before Health what assessment he has made of the regulations commence. effectiveness of his Department’s impact assessments in measuring inequalities in (a) gender, (b) social, (c) Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for geographical and (d) ethnic groups in relation to Health which organisations he plans to consult on the cardiovascular and kidney disease and diabetes. provisions contained in Part 3 of the Health Bill [278591] [Lords]. [278314] Ann Keen: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave Gillian Merron: We intend to work closely with a to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas wide range of interested stakeholders, as appropriate, Winterton) on 3 June 2009, Official Report, column on the detailed implementation of the provisions in 507W. Part 3 of the Health Bill. The Department has assessed the impact on equality We are already working with various organisations to relating to policies on cardiovascular disease, kidney develop draft regulations concerning the tobacco provisions. disease and diabetes. The assessments identify and The consultation on the draft regulations will be open analyse the available data and evidence on inequalities to all interested stakeholders and members of the public. in relation to these conditions and set out ways in which The organisations we will consult include, but are not to reduce the inequalities. The assessments have informed limited to: the Association of Convenience Stores, the policy development in these areas and are expected to British Retail Consortium, the National Federation of lead to improvements in outcomes and a reduction in Retail Newsagents, the Local Authorities Coordinators inequalities. of Regulatory Services, the National Association of The Department expects to monitor progress in Cigarette Machine Operators, the UK Travel Retail reducing inequalities for conditions including diabetes, Forum, the Association of Independent Tobacco Specialists, kidney disease and stroke. This will include activity to the Imported Tobacco Products Advisory Council, the identify gaps in evidence and ways of addressing these, Local Government Association, the Airport Operators increasing awareness of health and social care services Association as well as a number of individual businesses. of high risk groups and improving the availability and quality of data to ensure people with these conditions Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for are identified and receive good quality care. Improvements Health whether his Department plans to undertake a in access to services, a better experience and better regulatory impact assessment on the effect of the outcomes for groups at risk will demonstrate the provisions of the Health Bill [Lords] on small retail effectiveness of the impact assessments in identifying businesses; and if he will make a statement. [278315] inequalities and suggesting ways of reducing them. 839W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 840W

Hospitals: Infectious Diseases Where concerns are raised about social services, there is no requirement for local authorities, or CQC, to Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health respond urgently to any particular individuals or groups. pursuant to the answer of 22 April 2009, Official However, the Department would expect them to respond Report, column 712W, on hospitals: infections, what in an appropriate and timely manner, taking account of steps his Department is taking to reduce the incidence the circumstances of the case. of surgical site infections resulting from orthopaedic Local authorities are autonomous, elected bodies. surgeries. [278864] They are responsible for ensuring that the services they commission or provide meet the needs of service users Ann Keen: A key component is surveillance of surgical and they must discharge their statutory duties and act site infections (SSIs). Since 2004, when surveillance of legally. If a service user, or someone acting on their orthopaedic surgical site infections became mandatory, behalf, has concerns about the conduct or performance rates of SSI have decreased. of their social services department, they are entitled to pursue the matter through the statutory social services Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health complaints procedure, which all local authorities are what the rate of co-incidence of clostridium difficile required to have, or they may ask the local government and other healthcare-associated infections has been in ombudsman to investigate. individual patients in England in the last five years. The responsibility for children’s social care services [278866] rests with the Department for Children, Schools and Families. Ann Keen: Data on co-infections are not collected centrally. NHS: Complaints TREASURY Tax Avoidance Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether the Parliamentary and Health 9. David Taylor: To ask the Chancellor of the Service Ombudsman will be limited to the investigation Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with of maladministration or service failure in his representatives of (a) high street banks and (b) major consideration of complaints which would previously accounting firms on measures to reduce tax avoidance. have been subject to review by the Healthcare [278512] Commission. [278611] Mr. Timms: The Chancellor and Treasury Ministers Ann Keen: The scope and remit of the parliamentary have a range of discussions with industry on Budget and health service ombudsman to consider complaints representations. has not been changed by the abolition of the Healthcare In addition, HM Revenue and Customs is in regular Commission. contact with banks and major accounting firms on a range of issues including tax avoidance, the introduction Putney Hospital of a code of practice on taxation for banks, and other matters of mutual interest. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much Wandsworth Primary Care Trust has Tax Reporting Requirements spent on (a) the development plans for Putney Primary Care Centre, (b) the security and maintenance 12. Mr. Dunne: To ask the Chancellor of the of the Putney Hospital site and (c) consultation with Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the local residents on development plans for Putney cost to businesses of complying with tax reporting Primary Care Centre in each year since Putney requirements. [278515] Hospital closed. [278793] Mr. Timms: Research commissioned by HMRC in 2005 found the administrative burden imposed on business Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not by the UK tax system is approximately £5.1 billion a held centrally. The future of the site of the former year. Putney hospital is a matter for Wandsworth Primary Reducing administrative burdens for business is a Care Trust. priority for this Government, and so is one of HMRC’s Social Services: Correspondence priorities. At Budget 2009, HMRC have reported significant progress and have implemented or committed to measures that will deliver administrative savings to business of Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health around £540 million per annum. what mechanisms exist for hon. Members to request an immediate response from social services to urgent cases 14. Mr. Binley: To ask the Chancellor of the referred to them by those hon. Members; and if he will Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the make a statement. [278810] cost to businesses of complying with tax reporting requirements. [278517] Phil Hope: The responsibility for regulating adult social care services rests with the Care Quality Commission Mr. Timms: Research commissioned by HMRC in (CQC). CQC has a range of enforcement powers and 2005 found the administrative burden imposed on business will take action where it considers that the welfare of by the UK tax system is approximately £5.1 billion a service users may be at risk. year. 841W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 842W

Reducing administrative burdens for business is a 19. Mr. Swayne: To ask the Chancellor of the priority for this Government, and so is one of HMRC’s Exchequer what estimate his Department has made of priorities. At Budget 2009, HMRC have reported significant the aggregate percentage change to departmental progress and have implemented or committed to measures expenditure limits between 2010-11 and 2013-14. that will deliver administrative savings to business of [278522] around £540 million per annum. Mr. Byrne: In the 10 years from 1997, total public spending increased by 43 per cent. in real terms, compared Public Sector Debt to 14 per cent. in the previous decade. Such high levels of investment, coupled with reforms, have enabled the 13. Mr. Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the Government to achieve major improvements across frontline Exchequer by what date he next expects public sector public services. The Government are committed to debt to fall below 40 per cent. of gross domestic increasing investment in important public service priorities product. [278516] over the coming years, alongside delivering more efficient and effective public services and cutting down on waste. Kitty Ussher: The UK entered the global economic Departmental allocations plan for 2010-11 were set crisis with low public debt, which has given the flexibility out in Budget 2009. Departmental allocations plan to allow debt to rise in the short term to support the beyond 2010-11 will be decided at the next spending economy. Reflecting the Government’s commitment to review. Over 2011-12 to 2013-14, public sector current ensuring sustainable public finances over the medium expenditure is set to grow at an average of 0.7 per cent. term, the temporary fiscal operating rule requires debt in real terms, and public sector net investment will move to be falling as a proportion of GDP once the global to 1.25 per cent. of GDP in 2013-14. shocks have worked their way though the economy in full. The Budget set out plans that are consistent with 23. Mr. Spring: To ask the Chancellor of the debt falling as a share of GDP by 2015-16. Exchequer what estimate his Department has made of the aggregate percentage change to departmental Financial Services Authority expenditure limits between 2010-11 and 2013-14. [278526]

16. Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Byrne: In the 10 years from 1997, total public Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the spending increased by 43 per cent. in real terms, compared chairman and the chief Executive of the Financial to 14 per cent. in the previous decade. Such high levels Services Authority on the authority’s performance of investment, coupled with reforms, have enabled the against its objectives. [278519] Government to achieve major improvements across frontline public services. The Government are committed to Ian Pearson: Ministers and officials meet the FSA on increasing investment in important public service priorities a regular basis to discuss a wide range of issues. The over the coming years, alongside delivering more efficient FSA reports annually to the Treasury on its performance and effective public services and cutting down on waste. against objectives. The Treasury then lays the report Departmental allocations plan for 2010-11 were set before Parliament. out in Budget 2009. Departmental allocations plan beyond 2010-11 will be decided at the next spending Departmental Expenditure Limits review. Over 2011-12 to 2013-14, public sector current expenditure is set to grow at an average of 0.7 per cent. in real terms, and public sector net investment will move 17. Mr. Harper: To ask the Chancellor of the to 1.25 per cent. of GDP in 2013-14. Exchequer what estimate his Department has made of the aggregate percentage change to departmental Employment expenditure limits between 2010-11 and 2013-14. [278520] 18. Mr. Bailey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect Mr. Byrne: In the 10 years from 1997, total public on levels of employment of the measures in the 2009 spending increased by 43 per cent. in real terms, compared Budget. [278521] to 14 per cent. in the previous decade. Such high levels Kitty Ussher: Action the Government have taken in of investment, coupled with reforms, have enabled the the pre-Budget report 2008, since then and at Budget Government to achieve major improvements across frontline 2009 is of critical importance in supporting employment. public services. The Government are committed to For example, targeted cash-flow support for businesses increasing investment in important public service priorities through HMRC’s Business Payment Support Service over the coming years, alongside delivering more efficient has already helped 100,000 businesses employing 600,000 and effective public services and cutting down on waste. people since PBR. Precise quantification of the impact Departmental allocations plan for 2010-11 were set out of each measure in the 2009 Budget will be undertaken in Budget 2009. where possible and when the relevant data becomes Departmental allocations plan beyond 2010-11 will available. be decided at the next spending review. Over 2011-12 to 2013-14, public sector current expenditure is set to grow 22. Julie Morgan: To ask the Chancellor of the at an average of 0.7 per cent. in real terms, and public Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the sector net investment will move to 1.25 per cent. of effect on levels of employment of the measures in the GDP in 2013-14. 2009 Budget. [278525] 843W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 844W

Kitty Ussher: Action the Government have taken in regard to the maintenance of financial stability and to the pre-Budget report 2008, since then and at Budget act in a way that promotes competition. This objective 2009 is of critical importance in supporting employment. includes promoting competition in a way that is consistent For example, targeted cash-flow support for businesses with a UK financial services industry that operates to through HMRC’s Business Payment Support Service the benefit of consumers. has already helped 100,000 businesses employing 600,000 It is not the role of the UK Financial Investments people since PBR. Precise quantification of the impact Limited (UKFI) and the Treasury to intervene in the of each measure in the 2009 Budget will be undertaken day-to-day management decisions of invested banks where possible and when the relevant data becomes and banks which are in temporary public ownership. available. Small Businesses Pensioner Poverty

20. Mr. Reid: To ask the Chancellor of the Mary Creagh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he is taking to ensure that banks Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the continue to provide liquidity to small businesses. effect on levels of pensioner poverty of the proposals [278523] made in the 2009 Budget. [278514]

Ian Pearson: The Government are taking action to Ian Pearson: The Government have made significant ensure competitively priced loans continue to be available. progress in tackling pensioner poverty over the last On 19 January, the Government announced measures decade lifting 900,000 pensioners out of relative poverty to reinforce the stability of the financial system, increase since 1998. The Government remain committed to tackling confidence and capacity to lend, and support the recovery pensioner poverty and in April the guarantee element of of the economy.These measures build on those announced pension credit increased by the largest amount since its on 8 October 2008. introduction and above indexation. Budget 2009 took The Government have agreed lending commitments further action to help pensioner incomes. It announced with Lloyds and RBS that will see Lloyds lend an an additional payment alongside this year’s winter fuel additional £11 billion to businesses, and RBS an additional payment and a package of measures to support pensioners £16 billion to businesses—on commercial terms and who receive an income from savings. subject to market demand—over the 12 months from March 2009. Bank Lending The Government will report annually to Parliament on the delivery of these agreements. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the Automotive Assistance Programme effect on levels of bank lending of measures introduced in the 2009 Budget. [278518] 21. Peter Luff: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with Ian Pearson: As set out in the Budget, in response to Ministers and officials in the Department for Business, the current financial market stress and instability, the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform on the automotive Government have taken decisive and immediate steps to assistance programme; and if he will make a statement. limit the negative effects on the economy. [278524] On 19 January 2009, the Government announced a package of measures package designed to reinforce the Kitty Ussher: Treasury Ministers and officials regularly stability of the financial system, to increase confidence have discussions with Ministers and officials in the and capacity to lend, and in turn to support the recovery former Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory of the economy.These measures build on those announced Reform on all the Government’s initiatives to provide on 8 October last year. real help to business, including the Automotive Assistance Programme. At the 2008 pre-Budget report, the Government announced the creation of a new Lending Panel (made The AAP received state aid clearance on 27 February up of lenders, trade and consumer bodies, Government, 2009 with an “Open for Business” promotional seminar regulators and the Bank of England) to monitor lending. hosted by BERR on 11 March. Since then, there have As part of this new monitoring approach, the Bank of been more than 70 further requests for information on England is publishing new monthly report—“Trends in the scheme. The Government are working with companies, Lending”—which presents the bank’s assessment of resulting in around 15 approaches being taken forward latest developments in lending to UK economy. This in more detail. report is available at: Financial Services: Consumer Interests http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/other/ monetary/trendsinlending.htm 24. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he is taking to ensure that UK Landfill Tax Financial Investments takes into account the interests of consumers of financial services. [278527] Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what plans his Department has to Ian Pearson: The overarching objectives for the UK publish a report on the outcomes of the consultation Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI) are to protect and on proposed changes to landfill tax; and if he will make create value for the taxpayer as shareholder with due a statement; [278338] 845W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 846W

(2) which individuals and organisations have been Unemployment invited to respond to his Department’s consultation on proposed changes to landfill tax. [278339] Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what fiscal measures his Department has Kitty Ussher: This consultation, launched on 22 April put in place to reduce the unemployment rate for 18 to 2009, is being conducted in accordance with the 24 year olds. [278330] Government’s Consultation Code of Practice. An Kitty Ussher: The Government are committed to assessment of the responses will be undertaken following giving everyone the support they need to find employment the end of the consultation and a summary of responses as quickly as possible, whatever their age. will be published thereafter including any decisions taken in the light of the exercise. On 6 April 2009, as part of the Government’s response to the economic downturn, Government put in place a Hard copies of the consultation document have been package of support available to anyone unemployed for sent to all landfill site operators registered for the tax by more than six months, including a recruitment subsidy HMRC. An electronic copy of the consultation was of £1,000 for employers that recruit those in receipt of sent to various stakeholder groups including Government JSA for six months or more. Government also launched bodies, waste management companies, environmental extra support for newly unemployed customers including organisations, trade associations and industry bodies. one-to-one advice and coaching, and a quadrupling of Comments are welcome from anyone with an interest. funding for the Rapid Response Service. The document is available from both the HM Treasury and HM Revenue and Customs websites. Printed copies Funding was provided in the Budget for a guaranteed are also available from these Departments. offer of a job, work-focused training, or work experience for at least six months for all 18 to 24-year-olds who have been claiming JSA for 12 months. This offer will consist of: Revenue and Customs: Debt Collection New jobs created through the Future Jobs Fund, which will be worth around £1 billion and will create up to 100,000 new jobs Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the for young people, as well as a further 50,000 specifically Exchequer what steps his Department takes to ensure targeted in areas of high unemployment. Local authorities, that debt collection work contracted out by HM partnerships and others will be able to bid to create jobs Revenue and Customs is undertaken only by registered through the Fund; bailiffs. [277770] Support to move into a job in a key employment sector, including a subsidy to support 50,000 social care jobs through Care First: Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Work-focused training; or does not commission bailiffs to recover tax arrears or A place on a Community Task Force, delivering real help other debts and has no plans to do so. within their local community. The Department is currently carrying out a small-scale The guarantee will come into effect from January six-month trial to test the use of private debt collection 2010, with some jobs available as early as October 2009. agencies. The agencies involved have been chosen from a government framework contract and have successfully pursued debts on behalf of other Government Departments CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES for some years. The pilot does not involve face to face Children: Protection contact or visits to home or business premises. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Children, Schools and Families whether the Chief Exchequer what categories of information on creditors Adviser on the Safety of Children will be permitted to are provided to debt collectors working on behalf of read full serious case reviews. [274253] HM Revenue and Customs; and what procedures are in place to ensure the security of personal data relating to Dawn Primarolo: The Chief Adviser on the Safety of individuals in such circumstances. [277771] Children, Sir Roger Singleton, will be permitted to read individual full serious case reviews if, in his view, it is necessary for him to do so in order to fulfil his remit as Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) set out in his letter from the Secretary of State of and those acting on its behalf have a strict statutory 12 March. duty of confidentiality and information is only passed to third parties by HMRC for the purposes permitted Local Government: Correspondence by law. The Department is currently carrying out a small-scale six-month trial to test the use of private Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for debt collection agencies (DCAs). HMRC will supply to Children, Schools and Families what mechanisms exist such agencies only sufficient information to enable for hon. Members to request an immediate response identification and collection of any debt and authentication from local education authorities in respect of urgent of the identity of the debtor. cases referred to them by those hon. Members; and if he will make a statement. [278809] The DCAs’ processes have already been accredited by other Government Departments. HMRC have carried Ms Diana R. Johnson: If a local authority fails to out additional checks to ensure the statutory duty of respond to a hon. Member within a reasonable period confidentiality will be maintained. These will be of time, it is open to that Member to complain to the supplemented by robust audit and assurance as the Commission for Local Administration in England (the pilot proceeds. Local Government Ombudsman). 847W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 848W

Pre-school Education: Qualifications Dawn Primarolo: The Childcare and Early Years Providers Survey collects information on staff working Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for with children and young people. The number and Children, Schools and Families if he will estimate the proportion of early years child care staff without a number and proportion of the early years childcare level 3 and with at least a level 3 are detailed as follows: workforce without a level 3 or higher qualification; and if he will make a statement. [277819]

Qualifications of staff across all types of providers Total childcare staff (excluding childminders) Total early years staff Childminders Total Percentage Number1 Percentage Number1 Percentage Number1 Percentage Number1

At least level 3 65 204,100 79 68,000 41 24,300 64 294,400 Do not have at least a level 3 35 109,900 21 18,100 59 35,600 36 165,600 qualification Total numbers2 100 314,100 100 86,000 100 59,800 100 459,900 1 Numbers provided are subject to rounding error as they have been calculated based on the known total number of staff (final row of table) within each category and the proportions of staff with at least a level 3 qualification. 2 Totals may not sum due to rounding.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Number of staff

Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: 2008 2 Disciplinary Proceedings 2007 0 2006 0 Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, 2005 0 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how 2004 1 many staff of the Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service have had internal disciplinary Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: procedures opened against them in each of the last five Industrial Health and Safety years. [277860]

Mr. McFadden [holding answer 3 June 2009]: ACAS Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, takes its responsibility as the originator of the Discipline Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how and Grievance Code very seriously and is aware that it many staff of the Advisory Conciliation and must act in accordance with its own Code. Its managers Arbitration Service have taken time off work as a result always attempt to resolve issues informally first. ACAS of a diagnosis of stress in each of the last five years. currently employs 892 people and the following are the [277861] numbers of internal disciplinary procedures that it has opened against staff in each of the last five years. Mr. McFadden [holding answer 3 June 2009]: ACAS currently employs 892 people. The number of staff who Number of internal disciplinary have taken time off for stress in the last five years is as procedures follows: 2008 4 2007 5 Number of staff 2006 5 2004 45 2005 1 2005 95 2004 0 2006 67 2007 94 Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: 2008 76 Dismissal 2009 20 Notes: 1. The year is a calendar year. Some staff may have incurred more than one Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, period of absence relating to stress within a year, however they have only been Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how counted once for the purpose of this PQ. many staff of the Advisory Conciliation and 2. Stress related absence—the information is based on the number of people who have their absence recorded as stress. ‘Stress’ comprises all types of stress, Arbitration Service have been dismissed before the not just work related. Where people state the absence reason is stress and the scheduled end of a contract of employment in each of cause for this is e.g. bereavement then bereavement is taken as the reason. the last five years. [277859] Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: Mr. McFadden [holding answer 3 June 2009]: ACAS Industrial Relations currently employs 892 people and takes its responsibilities as an advocate of good employment practices seriously. This means that if an individual has an expected end Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, date to a contract, it will be an unusual occurrence for Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how the contract to be terminated before that date. The many staff complaints against managers have been following are the occasions where this has happened. received by the Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Permanent staff are not included in these figures. Service in each of the last five years. [277862] 849W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 850W

Mr. McFadden [holding answer 3 June 2009]: ACAS Departmental Public Consultation currently employees 892 people. It takes its responsibilities as an advocate of good employment practices very Mr. Prisk: To ask the Minister of State, Department seriously and thoroughly investigates any complaints it for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the receives about its staff. The number of staff complaints answer to the hon. Member for North West against managers received by ACAS in each of the last Cambridgeshire of 19 March 2009, Official Report, five years are as follows: column 1278W, on departmental public consultation, how many public consultations run by his Department Number of staff complaints in the last 12 months received (a) no response, (b) 2008 4 between one and 20 responses, (c) between 21 and 50 2007 1 responses, (d) between 51 and 100 responses and (e) 2006 3 over 100 responses; which consultations received no 2005 1 responses; and if he will make a statement. [270928] 2004 1 Mr. McFadden: Of the 36 consultations reported in the answer of 19 March 2009, Official Report, column Cabinet: Glasgow 1278W: (a) one consultation received no responses; Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how (b) nine received between one and 20 responses; much expenditure was incurred by his Department in (c) 12 received between 21 and 50 responses; respect of the Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April (d) nine received between 51 and 100 responses; and 2009. [273971] (e) five received over 100 responses. The number of responses received for individual Mr. McFadden: For information relating to the Cabinet consultations is recorded in the Government responses— and public engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 April these are published on the departmental website alongside I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right the consultations themselves at: hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June 2009, Official Report, column 487W. www.berr.gov.uk/consultations/ The one consultation which received no responses was Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Minister of State, 01-07-08 Consultation on a technical amendment to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 2008. expenditure on (a) travel, (b) accommodation and (c) food was incurred by (i) the Secretary of State and (ii) Employment Tribunals Service officials in his Department in connection with the Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. [273972] Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. McFadden: For information relating to the Cabinet Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how and public engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 many actions under employment law have been April I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by brought against his Department and its predecessor in my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June each of the last three years; how many such actions 2009, Official Report, column 487W. were brought under each category of action; and how many such actions were contested by his Department at an employment tribunal. [277416] Departmental Air Conditioning Mr. McFadden: Since 2006 28 cases were lodged Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, against the Department. We are unable to state the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how number in each category for reasons of confidentiality. many of his Department’s buildings are equipped with air conditioning systems with output greater than However in general terms the categories of claim 250kW; how many of these systems have been were: inspected under the Energy Performance of Buildings Age discrimination (Certificates and Inspections) (England and Wales) Breach of contract Regulations 2007 since the Regulations entered into Disability Discrimination force; and if he will place in the Library a copy of each Equal treatment of agency inspection report. [272128] Gender grounds Mr. McFadden: BIS’s main headquarters building at Race discrimination 1 Victoria street is the only building on its HQ estate Unfair dismissal that is equipped with an air conditioning system with Unfair selection for redundancy greater than 250 kW of output. An inspection of the system in accordance with the Energy Performance of Public interest disclosure (whistle blowing) Buildings (Certificates and Inspections)(England and Some individuals lodged claims under more than one Wales) Regulations 2007 is currently under way and is category. due for completion by 31 May. 12 cases have proceeded to full hearing and were The inspection results will be placed in both Libraries contested by the Department at employment tribunal. of the House. Four further cases remain pending. 851W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 852W

Non-domestic Rates Public Houses: Manpower Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Department for Business, Innovations and Skills if he assessment his Department has made of the effects on will assess the effect on employment in the beer and business solvency and closures of levels of commercial pub sector of trends in the level of alcohol sales from rents. [270402] off-licences. [271602] Mr. McFadden: No assessment has been made by this Department of the effects on business solvency and Mr. McFadden: This Department is aware that recent closures of the level of commercial rents. research within the sector indicates that employment in While rent levels are a matter for the market, the the beer and pub trade has been declining since 2006. Government are concerned to promote a fair and efficient We are working to ensure we can help all business in commercial property leasing market, and to this end every way we can, so that they are well placed to benefit prompted the property industry to introduce a voluntary as soon as there is an improvement in economic code of practice. They are monitoring the impact of the circumstances. With effect from 1 March 2009, tied current version of the code, introduced in March 2007, public houses became eligible to apply for Enterprise and are looking to it to ensure that business tenants are Finance Guarantee funding. better informed about leasing options. The code for leasing business premises is available at Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, the following web address: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the net changes in the number http://www.leasingbusinesspremises.co.uk/ of jobs in the brewing and public house sector in the Parental Leave: Lone Parents and Low Incomes last 12 months; and if he will take steps to safeguard John Bercow: To ask the Minister of State, jobs in this sector. [271607] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the recommendations in the Mr. McFadden: This Department has not made any Equality and Human Rights Commission’s Working estimate of changes in the number of jobs in the brewing Better report on the take-up of maternity and paternity and public house sector in the last 12 months. The leave by lone parents and parents on low incomes; and Department is aware that recent research undertaken if he will make a statement. [275415] within the brewing and public house sector indicates that employment in the beer and pub trade has been Mr. McFadden: The Government welcome the EHRC’s declining since 2006. We are working to restore greater contribution to the debate in this important area, and confidence in our economy as a whole which should in recognises the importance of ensuring mothers and itself help sectors such as this. With effect from 1 March fathers are both able to spend the time they need with 2009, tied public houses became eligible to apply for their families, while also being able to balance work and Enterprise Finance Guarantee funding. family life. That is why we have progressively introduced a substantial package of measures to help working Regeneration: Finance parents while recognising the needs of employers. From April 2007 all employed mothers have been Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, eligible to take up to 52 weeks’ maternity leave, of which Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what 39 weeks are paid. We have also more than doubled the community-led physical regeneration projects each standard rate payable to those mothers from £55.70 in regional development agency funded in each year since 1997 to £123.06 now. Longer and better paid maternity 2000. [265271] leave gives all mothers more choice about how much time to take off and 88 per cent. of mothers now take Mr. McFadden: The community-led physical regeneration their full entitlement to paid leave1. projects shown in the following tables are national We have also introduced statutory paternity pay at schemes comprising hundreds of individual grant awards. the same standard rate as SMP. More than nine-tenths The cost of collecting data on each grant would incur of fathers take time off around the time of their child’s disproportionate cost. Therefore, the projects have been birth2 of which seven tenths take two weeks or more. grouped under broad titles such as “Single Regeneration Budget” or “Market Town Initiative” alongside their Government financial support including statutory annual expenditure1. maternity pay and statutory paternity pay is now worth 1 at least £9,000 for many families during a child’s first A number of schemes (e.g. SRB) ran for a finite period, and had expenditure profiles that matched the commitments entered into year, up from only £2,600 in 1997. at the outset of the programme. These will vary from region to 1 Maternity rights and mothers employment decisions, 2008. region, depending on the priorities and different approaches 2 Maternity rights and mothers employment decisions, 2008. taken by the stakeholders.

Advantage West Midlands Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget (SRB) — — 25,007 21,146 16,487 12,733 11,686 25,783 4,851 Market Town Initiative (MTI) — — — 596 723 1,013 1,162 823 1,327 Other — — 21 603 1,570 1,548 2,876 417 1,262 853W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 854W

Advantage West Midlands Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Total — — 25,028 22,345 18,780 15,294 15,724 27,023 7,440

East of England Development Agency Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget (SRB) — 40,792 8,864 13,296 5,410 3,521 1,160 367 3 Market Town Initiative (MTI) — 430 452 1,634 550 505 — — — Investing In Communities (IIC) — 65 115 1,940 3,178 3,731 2,037 8 — Economic Participation (EP) — 1,307 798 139 1,579 1,601 6,756 9,643 11,598 Rural Renaissance — 430 452 1,634 550 505 — — — Building Communities Fund ————————450 (BCF) Total — 43,024 10,681 18,643 11,267 9,863 9,953 10,018 12,051

East Midlands Development Agency Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget (SRB) — — — 31,682 27,759 17,870 11,285 6,148 2,641 Market Town Initiative (MTI) — — 93 321 213 ———— Urban Action Plan — — — 909 1,503 524 3,467 3,599 4,944 Enterprising Communities — 147 778 4,131 1,738 3,983 2,048 3,488 1,353 Total — 147 871 37,043 31,213 22,376 16,800 13,235 8,939

London Development Agency Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget (SRB) — 97,144 119,967 104,498 76,011 43,603 40,633 21,032 5,029 Total — 97,144 119,967 104,498 76,011 43,603 40,633 21,032 5,029

North West Development Agency Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget — 127,016 139,073 131,111 99,079 60,297 61,417 33,293 13,312 (SRB) Market Town Initiative (MTI) — — — — 6 1,203 3,442 4,454 6,808 Economic Regeneration Schemes — — — 1,684 10,352 18,091 31,968 38,962 46,576 Social Enterprise Schemes — — — 342 759 529 815 1,507 497 Rural Renaissance — — — 289 5,877 10,431 11,929 15,887 17,872 Total — 127,016 139,073 133,426 116,073 90,551 109,571 94,103 85,065

One North East Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget (SRB) 78,235 78,422 84,771 82,719 59,225 35,907 22,352 5,816 1,469 Community Investment Fund — — 57 — 36 ———— Total 78,235 78,422 84,828 82,719 59,261 35,907 22,352 5,816 1,469

South East England Development Agency Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget — — — 18,434 24,713 13,074 10,574 3,482 160 (SRB) Market Town Initiative (MTI) — — — 40 325 867 1,275 1,244 1,745 Hastings — — 95 5,459 8,242 18,895 12,864 10,633 10,735 Area Investment Framework — — — 2,893 3,406 8,909 12,073 14,078 13,689 855W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 856W

South East England Development Agency Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Total — — 95 26,826 36,686 41,745 36,786 29,437 26,319

South West Regional Development Agency Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget (SRB) — — — 15,104 23,321 22,107 9,185 5,618 1,245 Market Town Initiative (MTI) — — — 497 932 1,365 2,002 1,425 2,488 Rural Renaissance — — — 296 45 638 2,568 5,127 7,105 Total — — — 15,897 24,928 24,110 13,755 12,170 10,838

Yorkshire Forward Total scheme funding (£000) 1999- Community Regeneration Scheme 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Single Regeneration Budget (SRB) — — 118,933 112,160 92,044 63,121 36,304 27,982 11,606 Market Town Initiative (MTI) — — 123 1,044 1,664 1,366 443 2,219 1,098 Economic Participation (EP) — — 2,035 16,862 22,647 33,514 16,552 22,930 28,454 Rural Renaissance — — 2,349 2,960 2,549 5,221 3,471 5,774 6,258 Skills Programme — — — 1,845 9,300 18,392 17,413 18,041 21,460 Total — — 123,440 134,871 128,204 121,614 74,183 76,946 68,876

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT The laptops that were purchased under this project were Dell D630s and the specification was an 80gb hard drive, dual core processor 2.2 Ghz and 2GB of memory. Departmental Computers The Terms of Reference for the Project Manager, the Project Initiation Document (PID) and the Project Approach Document will be placed in the Library. Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development pursuant to the answer of 20 March 2009, Official Report, column 1378, on departmental manpower, what expenditure his Developing Countries: Infant Mortality Department incurred (a) in total and (b) on the procurement of laptop computers under the Laptop Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for Refresh project; how many laptops were procured International Development what steps his Department under the project; by what means redundant laptops is taking to reduce the incidence of maternal mortality were disposed of under the project; for what reasons in the developing world. [277737] new laptops were required; how old on average were the laptops disposed of under the project; what the (i) Mr. Ivan Lewis: In June 2008 the UK Government brand and (ii) specification was of laptops purchased announced a commitment to spend £6 billion on improving under the project; what the terms of reference for the health systems and services over seven years to 2015. project were; and if he will publish the project The UK Government are working to accelerate progress documentation supplied by the project manager. on the reproductive and maternal health MDGs. The [277755] Prime Minister is co-chairing the High-Level Task Force on Innovative International Financing for Health Systems, Mr. Michael Foster: The total cost of the 2,400 which will raise additional funds for health systems and laptops purchased under the Department for International make a significant contribution to improving maternal Development (DFID) laptop refresh project was health. £1.8 million. Redundant laptops are given to Computeraid The Department for International Development (DFID) who distribute equipment to various projects across is working to achieve consensus with international partners developing countries. All donated laptops have the data on priority action to improve maternal and newborn erased prior to donation and DFID receives confirmation health. This will provide a framework for action at that the equipment will eventually be disposed of in line global, national and sub-national levels. It also recognises with the waste of electronic and electrical equipment the need to align the current international momentum (WEEE) guidelines. Approximately 90 per cent. of the in politics, advocacy and finance behind a commonly redundant laptops were past the four year end of life agreed set of policies and priority interventions to recommendation. accelerate progress on maternal health at country level. The new laptops were required as we were experiencing Further information on DFID’s work on maternal a high rate of failures with the previous models. We also mortality is available on the DFID website at: had a requirement to standardise on a single model of http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Global-Issues/How-we-fight-Poverty/ laptop across the organisation. Health/Maternal-Health/ 857W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 858W

Iraq: Economic Growth will be spent on supporting the peace process, improving governance, services, growth and jobs and in the fight against climate change. Mr. Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent steps his Department has taken to assist the economic Palestinians: Overseas Aid development of Iraq. [275064] Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Michael Foster: The UK Government have worked International Development what (a) reconstruction to increase Iraq’s capacity to attract inward investment, and (b) development projects are being funded in which will further stimulate growth, prompt further Gaza (i) by his Department, (ii) through the European reforms and facilitate skills transfer. Since April 2008 Union and (iii) through the United Nations; how much the UK Government have: funding his Department is providing for projects in Facilitated over 30 visits by potential international investors, Gaza in 2009-10; and how much he plans to provide for leading to proposals for investment in Iraq worth over $10 such projects in (A) 2010-11 and (B) 2011-12. [278386] billion. Helped establish the Basra Investment Commission, which is Mr. Michael Foster: Since the start of the current now leading on investment promotion for southern Iraq. We conflict the UK Government have pledged nearly have also provided technical assistance to the National Investment £47 million to help the people of Gaza, of which we Commission, with which the UK has arranged four large investment conferences: including in London in April 2008 have committed over £20 million. A summary of projects and April 2009, Kuwait in June 2008 and Istanbul in December supported by this funding is available on the DFID 2008. website at: Going forward, the UK Government have: www.dfid.gov.uk Agreed funding to help ensure that 1,000 small enterprises in Many of the projects funded by the Department for southern Iraq can access the credit they need to expand their International Development (DFID) cover both the West businesses. Bank and Gaza and so it is not possible to give figures Initiated a pilot youth vocational training and employment for Gaza alone. In recent years DFID bilateral funding programme for 500 youths with the Ministry of Labour in to the Occupied Palestinian Territories has increased Basra. This innovative programme should provide an employment from an average of £15.7 million for financial years model more widely in Iraq. 2000-01 to 2006-07 to over £60 million in financial years The Department for International Development’s 2007-08 and 2008-09. Detailed figures of DFID expenditure (DFID) existing programme with the World Bank is are included in the DFID annual report and the Statistics improving public financial management in the centre of on International Development document. These are government. The UK and the World Bank have also available in the Library of the House and on the DFID established a major new programme to help the website. Government of Iraq tackle the constraints to private sector development. Mr. Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Capacity building support by the UK Government International Development which businesses in Gaza has enabled the Basra Provincial Council to: have been awarded grants through the Facility for New Market Development; and what assessment he has Increase its budget from $23.5 million in 2006 to over $300 million made of the merits of expanding the scheme. [278637] in 2008; improve budget execution from 10 per cent. in 2006 to 50 per cent. in 2008; and manage over 800 development projects worth $650 million since 2006. Mr. Michael Foster: Since its launch last year, the Produced the first report of its type in Iraq, on Provincial Facility for New Market Development (FNMD) has Reconstruction and Development Activities for 2007— awarded grants to 19 individual businesses in Gaza, demonstrating their focus on transparency and accountability. from a wide range of sectors. A further three grants have been awarded to clusters of businesses. A full list Nepal of the businesses that have received grants will be placed in the Library. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for FNMD is a demand-led programme, and its expansion International Development what analysis his is therefore dependent on requests from businesses. Department has carried out on the potential effect on Demand from Gaza is expected to rise significantly as levels of (a) remittances, (b) resettlement and (c) soon as restrictions on movement and access are lifted, development aid for Nepal if all former Gurkha and the facility stands ready to respond. soldiers and their dependants were granted equality with UK equivalents. [278661] River Nile: Film

Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Development (DFID) has not carried out analysis of International Development pursuant to the answer of the impact on remittances and resettlement if all former 4 March 2009, if he will place in the Library a copy of Gurkha soldiers and their dependants were granted the Nile Basin documentary film produced by Wild equality with their UK equivalents. Dog Ltd. with funding from his Department. [277756] The British Government have committed over £172 million in development assistance for Nepal over Mr. Thomas: A copy of the Nile Basin Documentary the next three financial years 2009-10 to 2011-12. This Film, will be placed in the Library of the House. 859W Written Answers9 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 860W

St. Helena: Shipping Mr. Michael Foster: We have been advised that it would not be economic to maintain operations of the Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for RMS St. Helena beyond around 2015 or 2016. The International Development what the cost of following table shows operating costs between 2001-02 maintaining the RMS St. Helena service to St. Helena and 2007-08. was in each year since 2000; and what the projected cost is for each year to 2020. [260195]

£ Total operating cost (including DFID operating subsidy) Maintenance/repair cost DFID operating subsidy

2001-02 5,404,060 463,000 1,931,066 2002-03 5,810,900 512,000 1,405,443 2003-04 4,846,200 939,000 1,469,127 2004-05 6,295,280 556,000 2,511,597 2005-06 6,439,830 540,000 2,337,879 2006-07 6,986,200 1925,000 3,056,000 2007-08 6,744,000 707,000 2,728,137 1 Includes dry dock.

We would expect this trend in operating costs certification, and with additional expenditure of about and subsidy to continue, with an increase to cover £2.5 million to refurbish the engines and replace essential an annual dry dock required to maintain safety steelwork. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 9 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 633 TREASURY—continued Bradford & Bingley (Bonds)...... 635 Public Sector Debt ...... 645 Debt Reduction...... 641 Reoffending (Access to Services)...... 639 Early Intervention...... 643 Savings...... 633 Inflation...... 637 Topical Questions ...... 646 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 9 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 29WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 31WS Trade Credit Insurance Top-up Scheme ...... 29WS Equality Commission for Northern Ireland ...... 31WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 29WS Problem Gambling...... 29WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TRANSPORT ...... 32WS AFFAIRS...... 30WS Correction to Parliamentary Answers ...... 32WS Dairy Farmers of Britain ...... 30WS South Central Franchise ...... 32WS PETITION

Tuesday 9 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 13P General Practice Surgeries (Bedfordshire) ...... 13P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 9 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 847W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: Departmental Data Protection...... 823W Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 847W Departmental Stationery...... 823W Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: Departmental Surveys...... 823W Dismissal ...... 847W Employment Tribunals Service...... 824W Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: Equality: Broadcasting...... 824W Industrial Health and Safety...... 848W Gambling: Internet ...... 825W Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service: Licensing Laws: Fees and Charges ...... 825W Industrial Relations ...... 848W Olympic Games 2012: Facilities ...... 825W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 849W Public Houses ...... 826W Departmental Air Conditioning...... 849W Sports: Young People...... 826W Departmental Public Consultation...... 850W Television...... 827W Employment Tribunals Service...... 850W Non-domestic Rates...... 851W DEFENCE...... 828W Parental Leave: Lone Parents and Low Incomes.... 851W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 828W Public Houses: Manpower ...... 852W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 828W Regeneration: Finance ...... 852W Armed Forces: Fuels ...... 828W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 828W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 846W Army: Lost Property...... 829W Children: Protection...... 846W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 830W Local Government: Correspondence...... 846W Departmental Buildings...... 830W Pre-school Education: Qualifications ...... 847W Kenya: Piracy...... 831W Special Forces: Defence Equipment ...... 831W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 785W Special Forces: Finance...... 831W Flood Control...... 785W War Pensions ...... 831W Housing: Insulation ...... 786W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 821W AFFAIRS...... 800W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 821W Angling: Licensing ...... 800W Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— JUSTICE—continued continued Crimes of Violence: Sentencing...... 792W Civil Service Agencies: Boats ...... 800W Departmental Data Protection...... 793W Departmental Furniture...... 803W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 793W Employment Tribunals Service...... 804W Elections: Proof of Identity ...... 794W Fisheries...... 805W Firearms: Sentencing ...... 794W Fisheries: Finance ...... 805W Judiciary: Sick Leave...... 795W Flood and Water Management Bill (Draft)...... 806W Land Registry: Complaints ...... 795W Flood Control...... 806W Magistrates ...... 796W Floods: Hospitals...... 807W Parkhurst Prison ...... 796W Inland Waterways ...... 807W Parole...... 797W Sewers: Private Sector ...... 808W Prisons ...... 797W Prisons: Greater London...... 798W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 790W Probation ...... 798W 1 Carlton Gardens ...... 790W Probation: Wales...... 798W Departmental Data Protection...... 790W Restorative Justice...... 799W G8...... 790W Suicide ...... 799W Middle East: Politics and Government...... 791W Torture: Inspections ...... 799W Somali: Piracy...... 791W Sri Lanka: Armed Conflict ...... 791W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 827W Members: Allowances ...... 827W HEALTH...... 835W Private Members’ Bills: Parliamentary Procedure .. 828W Breast Cancer: Screening...... 835W Health Bill...... 836W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 832W Health Services ...... 838W Police Service of Northern Ireland: Manpower...... 832W Hospitals: Infectious Diseases...... 839W Police Service of Northern Ireland: Museums and NHS: Complaints ...... 839W Galleries...... 832W Putney Hospital ...... 839W Prison Service: Misconduct...... 832W Social Services: Correspondence ...... 839W OLYMPICS ...... 833W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 808W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 833W Alcoholic Drinks: Crime...... 808W Olympic Delivery Authority: Manpower...... 834W Alcoholic Drinks: Young People ...... 810W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 834W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: East of England ...... 811W Crime: Firearms...... 812W TRANSPORT ...... 786W Departmental Manpower...... 813W Blue Badge Scheme...... 786W Entry Clearances: Pakistan ...... 813W Crossrail Line: Finance ...... 787W European Arrest Warrants ...... 814W Driving Tests: Essex ...... 787W Members: Correspondence ...... 815W Roads: Repairs and Maintenance...... 787W Organised Crime: International Cooperation...... 815W Police: Surveillance ...... 816W TREASURY ...... 840W Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005...... 816W Automotive Assistance Programme ...... 843W Sexual Offences: Essex ...... 816W Bank Lending ...... 844W Surveillance: Disclosure of Information...... 818W Departmental Expenditure Limits ...... 841W Theft: Bicycles...... 818W Employment ...... 842W Travelling People...... 821W Financial Services Authority...... 841W Financial Services: Consumer Interests...... 843W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 785W Landfill Tax ...... 844W Members: Allowances...... 785W Pensioner Poverty...... 844W Public Sector Debt ...... 841W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 855W Revenue and Customs: Debt Collection...... 845W Departmental Computers ...... 855W Small Businesses ...... 843W Developing Countries: Infant Mortality ...... 856W Tax Avoidance ...... 840W Iraq: Economic Growth ...... 857W Tax Reporting Requirements ...... 840W Nepal ...... 857W Unemployment ...... 846W Palestinians: Overseas Aid ...... 858W River Nile: Film ...... 858W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 788W St. Helena: Shipping ...... 859W Departmental Finance ...... 788W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 788W JUSTICE...... 792W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 789W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 792W Social Security Benefits: Myasthenia Gravis ...... 789W Commonhold...... 792W Unemployed: Social Security Benefits...... 789W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Tuesday 9 June 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 633] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Road Signs (Tourist Destinations and Facilities) [Col. 654] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Sir Alan Beith)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [12th allotted day] Knife Crime [Col. 657] Motion—(Chris Grayling)—agreed to Amendment—(Alan Johnson)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Housing [Col. 710] Motion—(Grant Shapps)—on a Division agreed to Amendment—(John Healey)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petitions [Col. 764]

Aung San Suu Kyi [Col. 766] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Manufacturing and Employment [Col. 161WH] Council Tax Capping (Surrey) [Col. 185WH] Extreme Solar Events [Col. 209WH] Home Education [Col. 216WH] Abu Musa and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs [Col. 225WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 29WS]

Petition [Col. 13P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 785W] [see index inside back page]